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   Jun

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Jun 2002

  Jun 1:

   Archive Top 20 'Reads' 05-02 - Moderator [43]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Woods - Michael J. Woods [56]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - van Hyum - Peter van Hyum [69]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden - Dave Bowden [63]
   Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? - Stig Agermose [41]
   Bentwaters ConSPIracy Cantata - Stig Agermose [175]
   Huge Orange Lights In Indiana Sky - Stig Agermose [23]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White - Eleanor White [97]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Hale - Roy Hale [15]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming - Lan Fleming [60]
   Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? - - Don Ledger [22]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming - Lan Fleming [12]
   Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating in Space? - - Wendy Connors [22]
   Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle - Kevin Randle [57]
   Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - - Robert Gates [49]
   CI: 06-1-02 Two New Updates - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - - Amy Hebert [88]
   Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - - Amy Hebert [48]
   Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - - Royce J. Myers III
   [76]
   Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Kelly - Jim Kelly [46]

  Jun 2:

   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [74]
   Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - - Steven Kaeser [42]
   Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? - - Bruce Maccabee
   [23]
   UFO Frauds [was: Possible Action Pending ...]- - David Rudiak [117]
   'Invasion Washington' A Review - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Death of Ufology - Wendy Connors [101]
   Re: UFO Frauds [was: Possible Action Pending...] - - Bruce Hutchinson
   [69]
   'cfrench' In UFO Field? - Steven Kaeser [4]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden - Dave Bowden [26]
   Bigfoot Backers & Flying Saucer Believers - Loren Coleman [89]
   References To Two 60s Mexican Cases? - Chris Aubeck [49]
   CCCRN News: Update - Duncan, BC and Mansfield, ON - Paul Anderson [88]
   Graham Hancock 'Quits'? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [121]
   Re: Graham Hancock 'Quits'? - Thompson - Paul Thompson [11]
   CSICOP [was: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?] - Richard Hall [20]

  Jun 3:

   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Young - Bob Young [18]
   Crisis of Credibility in Ufology - Karl Rotstan [71]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming - Lan Fleming [40]
   Re: Death of Ufology - McClaren - Malcolm McClaren [103]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [23]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [22]
   Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Wendy Connors [157]
   That Prediction Thing Again - Dave Bowden [23]
   Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [47]
   Re: UFO Frauds [was: Bill Uhouse... ] - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [107]
   Re: That Prediction Thing Again - Hale - Roy Hale [18]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 06-3-02 - Paul Anderson [56]
   Fewer Abductions? - John Velez [57]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Friedman - Stan Friedman [137]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Hall - Richard Hall [57]
   Re: CSICOP - Alexander - James Alexander [27]
   Re: llegitimacy of CSICOP - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [81]
   Lawton Triangles - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Hebert - Amy Hebert [236]
   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden - Dave Bowden [67]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Alexander - James Alexander [40]
   Re: That Prediction Thing Again - Bowden - Dave Bowden [26]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Bueche - Will Bueche [72]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [28]

  Jun 4:

   Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy - GT McCoy [163]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [130]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [105]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Randle - Kevin Randle [169]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White - Eleanor White [98]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - van Hyum - Peter van Hyum [19]
   Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - - Alfred Lehmberg [207]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Connors - Wendy Connors [24]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - White - Eleanor White [14]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [36]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [140]
   UFO Sighting over Caracas - Loise Lowry [21]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Fleming - Lan Fleming [36]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 23 - John Hayes [230]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [23]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young - Bob Young [46]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Hall - Richard Hall [50]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Reed Hall - Reed Hall [43]

  Jun 5:

   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Bowden - Dave Bowden [58]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors - Wendy Connors [33]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [89]
   Bryant - The NARA Response Arrives - Larry W. Bryant [50]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [91]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Ledger - Don Ledger [19]
   North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood - GT McCoy [14]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [117]
   Disclosure2003 Campaign Update - 06-04-02 - Stephen G. Bassett [72]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden - Dave Bowden [56]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Young - Bob Young [13]
   Death Of The X-Files - Bob Young [7]

  Jun 6:

   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors - Wendy Connors [43]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young/Sheaffer - Bob Young [66]
   Filer's Files #23 - 2002 - George A. Filer [522]
   EW: 06-05-02 ET Search Uses 1 Meg-Year CPU Time - Kurt Jonach [30]
   Rods Redux - Dave Bowden [20]
   Re: Death of Ufology - Fleming - Lan Fleming [15]
   [canufo] New MUFON Director - UFO UpDates - Toronto [20]
   Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar Announcement - Intruders Foundation [48]
   Re: Death Of The X-Files - Hale - Scott Hale [15]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [61]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Velez - John Velez [38]
   UFO Shelled Over LA In 1942 - David Acres [9]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White - Eleanor White [65]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors - Wendy Connors [121]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Randle - Kevin Randle [59]
   EW's DVD Review: 'The Mothman Prophecies' - Loren Coleman [26]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [85]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [173]
   Re: North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood - - Bill Hamilton [23]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Friedman - Stan Friedman [65]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [25]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Randle - Kevin Randle [18]
   Bryant FOIA Request - 06-06-02 - Larry W. Bryant [48]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [62]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors - Wendy Connors [87]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [21]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [23]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - White - Eleanor White [47]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Velez - John Velez [94]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [79]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [47]
   Beware "Unknown Unknowns" - Loren Coleman [14]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White - Eleanor White [108]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White - Eleanor White [39]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [126]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Kenny Young - Kenny Young [28]
   Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Wendy Connors [133]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young - Bob Young [47]

  Jun 7:

   Re: UFO Frauds - Randle - Kevin Randle [16]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Owens - Steve Owens [41]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors - Wendy Connors [36]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [37]
   Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [11]
   Re: Filer's Files #23 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [43]
   Illegitimacy Of CSICOP Attested To By Co-Founder - Lan Fleming [41]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden - Dave Bowden [56]
   The 'CNN Factor' - Erik Landahl [53]
   Two Anniversaries This Week - Sean Jones [9]
   Mothman Prophecies On Home Video - Loren Coleman [35]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [36]
   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [43]
   Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [70]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [28]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 353 - Edoardo Russo [84]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Randle - Kevin Randle [65]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [16]
   Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Velez - John Velez [22]
   Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Tonnies - GT McCoy [17]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Eleanor White [56]
   Re: Fewer Abductions? - White - Eleanor White [38]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Ecker - Don Ecker [45]
   NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Gregory Gutierez [15]
   Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area - Loren Coleman [29]
   Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden - Dave Bowden [27]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [37]

  Jun 8:

   Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [76]
   Williams Lake, B.C., UFO Articles - Brian Vike [9]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [50]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [27]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [47]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [28]

  Jun 9:

   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 354 - Edoardo Russo [92]
   Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area - - Larry Hatch [19]
   Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention - Larry W. Bryant
   [74]
   Re: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Gross - Patrick Gross [15]
   Re: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Hall - Richard Hall [19]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Ecker - Don Ecker [29]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #17 - Alfred Lehmberg [96]
   Re-Organiztion Of U.S. Security Agencies - Jim Deardorff [20]
   HUFOBCC: Smithers B.C. Sighting - Brian Vike [27]
   Got Sack? - Alfred Lehmberg [105]
   Re: Two Anniversaries This Week - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [32]
   Lazar Movie - Dave Haith [73]
   Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Dave Haith [25]
   Did 'ET' stalk Bush? - Dave Haith [44]
   Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area - - Jean Meiners [23]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Luis R. Gonzalez [19]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Chaz Stuart [3]
   Re: Lazar Movie - McCoy - GT McCoy [22]
   CCCRN News: 'Signs' Crop Circle Contest - Paul Anderson [117]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [50]
   Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area - - GT McCoy [38]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hall - Richard Hall [14]
   Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders - Stig Agermose [98]
   Was It A UFO? Kreskin, Crupi Differ - Stig Agermose [46]
   It's a UFO... It's A Plane... It's A Meteor - Stig Agermose [91]
   Davenport On Kreskin - Stig Agermose [55]
   Ron Card? - Albert Rosales [7]
   Federal Judges To Hear Area 51 Case - Stig Agermose [89]
   Sighting Eulo, Southwest Queensland Oz - 25-4-02 - Diane Harrison [97]
   OZ files UFO Sightings - 6th.05.2002 - Diane Harrison [715]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #17 - Velez - John Velez [75]

  Jun 10:

   UFO Sightings OZ Files 10.06.2002 - Diane Harrison [166]
   More On Smithers, B.C. Sighting - Brian Vike [18]
   Re: Got Sack? - Velez - John Velez [137]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Gates - Robert Gates [65]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders - - Larry Hatch [44]
   Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - Robert Gates [22]
   Year Of The UFO - Bruce Maccabee [41]
   Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hebert - Amy Hebert [61]
   EW: UFO No Show/Presidential Sightings Bust - Kurt Jonach - The
   Electric Warrior" [32]
   'Rods' Are Bugs - Amy Hebert [5]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [79]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Harrison - Diane Harrison [93]
   Re: talian UFO Newsflash No. 355 - Edoardo Russo [132]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [43]
   Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - - Ed Gehrman [15]
   Re: Ron Card? - Hall - Richard Hall [14]
   Re: reskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Bowden - Dave Bowden [32]
   Re: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 6.10.02 - Paul Anderson [60]
   Serenity Is A Great Mediator - Jim Mortellaro [15]
   False UFO Reports From Turkey - Erol Erkmen [50]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Alfred Lehmberg [225]
   Re: Two Anniversaries This Week - Jones - Sean Jones [49]
   Re: Got Sack? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [184]
   Roswell: Final Declassification - Loren Coleman [13]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Thompson - Paul Thompson [7]

  Jun 11:

   Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Bigfoot, Chupacabras & Other Strange Creatures - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [7]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - John Velez [51]
   Kreskin UFO No Show Update - Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior [64]
   Astronomy Picture Of The Day Archive - Diane Harrison [20]
   Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [118]
   Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Randle - Kevin Randle [56]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 356 - Edoardo Russo [139]
   Re: Year Of The UFO - Velez - John Velez [24]
   Re: Stolen Documents - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [14]
   Re: oswell: Final Declassification - Rudiak - David Rudiak [29]
   Re: Got Sack? - Trout - Beverly Trout [29]
   Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [25]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Kevin Randle [92]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle - Kevin Randle [103]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle - Kevin Randle [42]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young - Bob Young [67]
   Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Hall - Richard Hall [36]
   Re: oswell: Final Declassification - Randle - Kevin Randle [29]
   Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Randle - Kevin Randle [42]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Don Ledger [53]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Kevin Randle [49]
   Re: Year Of The UFO - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [29]

  Jun 12:

   EW: Amazing Mentalist's UFO Prediction (Humor) - Kurt Jonach [83]
   BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood - Stig Agermose [60]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle - Larry Warren? [64]
   International UFO Museum Opens In Istanbul - Stig Agermose [57]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [169]
   Secrecy News -- 06/11/02 - Steven Aftergood [114]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Chaz Stuart [19]
   Aleksandr Plaksin's Soviet UFO Research - Paul Stonehill [67]
   Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - - Robert Gates [47]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Gates - Robert Gates [40]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hatch - Larry Hatch [51]
   Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - - Steven Kaeser [44]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [69]

  Jun 13:

   Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle - Kevin Randle [90]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - McCoy - GT McCoy [61]
   Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - David Acres [14]
   CCCRN News: Another Grass Formation - Mansfield, - Paul Anderson [78]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 24 - John Hayes [581]
   Re: BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood - - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles - Duncan Ives Lewis [71]
   FOIA Request To CIA - 06-12-02 - Larry W. Bryant [44]
   Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked - - Ed Gehrman [48]
   Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware - UFO UpDates - Toronto [180]
   Stanton T. Friedman - Upcoming Events - Stan Friedman [29]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young - Bob Young [27]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [14]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hebert - A. Hebert [21]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 06/12/02 - Steven Aftergood [82]
   Astro-physicist Presents SETV Hypothesis - Christoffer Walther [18]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - John Velez [65]

  Jun 14:

   More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Stig Agermose [40]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Re: Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [158]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [58]
   Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware - - John Velez [12]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast - Elaine Tassin [36]
   History Channel's 'Roswell: Final Disinformation' - Stephen G. Bassett
   [29]
   Last Night's Tragedy - Kevin Randle [41]
   Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Stig Agermose [69]
   Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware - - Josh Goldstein [66]
   Interview with Discoverer of 'Map of the Creator' - Stig Agermose [272]
   Secrecy News -- 06/13/02 - Steven Aftergood [73]
   Filer's Files #24 - 2002 - George A. Filer [513]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [43]
   Mayor Declares Chilean UFO Region Tourism Zone - Karl Rotstan [82]
   Re: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [32]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [55]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Bill Hamilton [65]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Kevin Randle [53]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [21]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - John Velez [32]
   Re: Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast - McCoy - GT McCoy [18]
   Argentina - Mystery In La Pampa Over Mutilated - Louise Lowry [63]
   Re: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [49]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak - Paul Novak [17]
   Re: History Channel's 'Roswell: Final - Stanton T. Friedman [27]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - McCoy - GT McCoy [58]
   Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware - - GT McCoy [206]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Bassett - Stephen G. Bassett [31]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Velez - John Velez [53]

  Jun 15:

   Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren - Larry Warren [44]
   Secrecy News -- 06/14/02 - Steven Aftergood [94]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Novak - Paul Novak [8]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [17]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Bruce Hutchinson [40]
   CI: Symbolic Interpretation of Face - Mac Tonnies [91]
   Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [42]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Acres - David Acres [20]
   Re: Request For Investigative & - Larry Hatch [72]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [9]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [13]
   The Roswell Embarrassment - Tom Carey [8]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Rousell - Mark Rousell [20]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Webre - Bill Weber [36]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #19 - Alfred Lehmberg [93]
   Please Check This out, ASAP! - Larry W. Bryant [8]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Bryant FOIA Appeal - 05-15-02 - Larry W. Bryant [44]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming - Lan Fleming [56]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - John Velez [87]
   Hello, Again, Hello - Jim Speiser [10]

  Jun 16:

   Mortellaro Press Release - 06-15-02 - Jim Mortellaro [28]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [80]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [13]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Steven Kaeser [49]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Ledger - Don Ledger [44]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Young - Bob Young [22]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Weber - Bill Weber [21]
   Gerald Anderson & The US Navy SEALS - Kevin Randle [16]
   Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints - Kalani Hanohano [84]
   Scoop Marks? - Bill Weber [27]
   Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On - David Haith [45]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Ledger - Don Ledger [40]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [61]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [45]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [22]
   After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [199]

  Jun 17:

   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak - Paul Novak [60]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming - Lan Fleming [32]
   Re: Request For Investigative & - Josh Goldstein [105]
   Re: Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints - - Jim Speiser [104]
   Alien Autopsy Made In? - Joachim Koch [18]
   Re: Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On - - Jim Speiser [10]
   CCCRN News: Update - Duncan, BC and Mansfield, ON - Paul Anderson [86]
   Blimps - GT McCoy [7]
   Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Weber - Bill Weber [35]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Robert Gates [43]
   Letter To The Editor - Sunday Express UK - Stephen G. Bassett [63]
   Re: Ural Alien-Body-Pictures? - Persky - Alex Persky [69]
   Teleportation Of Laser Beam Reported - Bill Chalker [7]
   Re: Blimps - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [38]
   Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming - Kevin Randle [65]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [67]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #367 - Alfred Lehmberg [120]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - John Velez [72]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #19 - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [93]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - John [89]
   ET, Blair, Turkey & World Cup - UFO UpDates [30]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Bill Hamilton [42]
   Re: Blimps - Thompson - Paul Thompson [49]
   UFOs On BBC South TV - Dave Haith [12]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Richard Hall [37]

  Jun 18:

   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak - Paul Novak [107]
   Re: Blimps - Novak - Paul Novak [18]
   Green Orbs Near Petersburg, West Virginia - Jim Speiser [15]
   Close Encounters Of The Circular Kind - Stig Agermose [136]
   Roswell Declared 'All-America City' - Stig Agermose [50]
   Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...] - Don Ledger [39]
   Re: After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On - Kurt Jonach [21]
   ABCNEWS On Floating Orb (+ Video) - Stig Agermose [44]
   Re: Blimps - McCoy - GT McCoy [51]
   UFO Over Sacred Sri Lankan Cliff - Stig Agermose [27]
   UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Stig Agermose [42]
   New Planets Discovered - Stig Agermose [33]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 6.17.02 - Paul Anderson [57]
   Re: Blimps - Lehmberg - From: Alfred Lehmberg [115]
   Re: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative - Don Ledger [74]
   Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Katharina Wilson [138]
   Shockingly Close To A Book - Kevin Randle [21]
   Re: Blimps - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [62]
   Re: Blimps - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: Blimps - Ledger - Don Ledger [78]
   Re: Mantell - Hall - Richard Hall [57]

  Jun 19:

   Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact - Mike Briggs [189]
   Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Hall - Richard Hall [50]
   Re: Blimps - Thompson - Paul Thompson [45]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White - Eleanor White [22]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [18]
   Re: Blimps - Ledger - Don Ledger [53]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hall - Richard Hall [38]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bassett - Stephen Bassett [37]
   Re: Blimps - Novak - Paul Novak [91]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Bruce Maccabee [53]
   Re: Blimps - Novak - Paul Novak [85]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Young - Bob Young [55]
   Documentary On Friedman Airs In Canada - Stig Agermose [61]
   Re: Mantell - Ledger - Don Ledger [65]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [107]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Meiners - Jean Meiners [17]
   Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - George A. Filer [519]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Jim Speiser [8]

  Jun 20:

   Re: Scoop Marks? - Meiners - Jean Meiners [24]
   Re: Mantell - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [38]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley - Matt Hurley [7]
   NY Times Article - Don Ledger [10]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [49]
   Secrecy News -- 06/19/02 - Steven Aftergood [87]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [17]
   Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Ledger - Don Ledger [35]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Speiser - Jim Speiser [37]
   I Really Hate To Do This - Larry Hatch [71]
   EW: Mars Face Morphed - Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior [98]
   News Items For 'Beyond' - Philip Mantle [19]
   Re: Blimps - Acres - David Acres [39]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hall - Richard Hall [57]
   Re: Blimps - Acres - David Acres [26]
   Re: Blimps - Acres - David Acres [18]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Richard Hall [29]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [22]
   Nefarious Activities [was: Reasons Why Abductees - Stephen Bassett [52]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [37]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White - Eleanor White [27]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [46]
   Re: Mantell - Clark - Jerome Clark [30]
   Chinese Scientists Head For Suspected ET Relics - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [68]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [63]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bassett - Stephen Bassett [72]
   Re: Nefarious Activities - Hall - Richard Hall [67]
   Re: Mantell - Ledger - Don Ledger [33]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #20 - Alfred Lehmberg [244]

  Jun 21:

   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Warren - Larry Warren [27]
   Re: Blimps - McCoy - GT McCoy [38]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Myers - Royce J. Myers III - The
   Watchdog [57]
   Re: Blimps - Ledger - Don Ledger [54]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Bob Young [29]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [184]
   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Speiser - Jim Speiser [72]
   Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Disclosure2003 Press/Media Release - 6/21/02 - Stephen G. Bassett [43]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch - Larry Hatch [32]

  Jun 22:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 25 - John Hayes [543]
   Re: Scoop Marks? - Acres - David Acres [44]
   Re: Blimps - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [84]
   Re: Mantell - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [42]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [57]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Murray - Marty Murray [48]
   A Canadian Mars Lander - Nick Balaskas [64]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Filer - George A. Filer [36]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Moretllaro - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   Re: American Civil War Sighting? - Karl Rotstan [26]
   Secrecy News -- 06/21/02 - Steven Aftergood [131]
   Bob Lazar - True or False? - Glenn Campbell [100]
   Re: Mantell - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [106]

  Jun 23:

   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [77]
   Re: Blimps - Acres - David Acres [65]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [71]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch - Larry Hatch [63]
   Obviously, It's Almost June 24th - Loren Coleman [45]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Matthews - Tim Matthews [37]
   Chinese Mystery Pyramid - David Acres [22]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White - Eleanor White [19]
   Re: Mantell - Clark - Jerome Clark [57]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [28]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Davey - Virginia Davey [28]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [24]
   Explanation Of 'UFO' Over Dagestan? - Paul Stonehill [2]
   New On Magonia Website - 06-23-02 - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [21]
   PRAVDA.Ru Interviews Stephen Bassett - Stig Agermose [156]

  Jun 24:

   UFOs Spotted In Baku, Azerbaijan - Stig Agermose [22]
   UFOs Over New Hampshire - Stig Agermose [28]
   USUFOIRC Conference - Stig Agermose [69]
   Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe - Stig Agermose [76]
   US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Stanton Friedman [20]
   Re: American Civil War Sighting? - Young - Bob Young [25]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [30]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [27]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [36]
   Re: Obviously, It's Almost June 24th - Hatch - Larry Hatch [27]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [56]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [52]
   June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Loren Coleman [26]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [72]
   Re: USUFOIRC Conference - Anderson - Kathleen Anderson [9]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [12]
   UFOs & Mutilations In Santiago del Estero - Scott Corrales [111]
   Argentine Carcass Count Will Reach 200 - Scott Corrales [51]
   Mutilations Reach Town of Roque Perez - Scott Corrales [29]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [34]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [94]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [35]
   Argentine's SENASA Will Make Initial Reports Known - Scott Corrales
   [39]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley - Matt Hurley [29]
   Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen - Brian Vike [18]
   Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Randle - Kevin Randle [79]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [30]

  Jun 25:

   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Lewis - Duncan Lewis [64]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Gates - Rpbert Gates [19]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [24]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [16]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates - Robert Gates [26]
   Re: Lazar Movie - Gates - Robert Gates [24]
   Re: une 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [78]
   Re: Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen - Jones - Sean Jones [25]
   Re: Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [15]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [40]
   CAUS PRESS RELEASE: Bryant Vs. NARA - Larry W. Bryant [182]
   Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Friedman - Stan Friedman [96]
   UFOn UK Returns - Anthony Chippendale [15]
   Pravda - Fifty-Five Years Of Insanity - UFO UpDates - Toronto [76]
   'Pancake Perspectives' - Loren Coleman [17]
   Uruguay: First Report of Cattle Mutes - Scott Corrales [26]
   Argentina: SENASA Blames "Rogue Surgeons" - Scott Corrales [46]
   Fortean Times? - Chris Rutkowski [8]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [32]
   Re: Fortean Times? - Peterborough - Kelly Peterborough [16]
   Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Jim Mortellaro [32]
   Re: Fortean Times? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Jim Speiser [30]
   Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day - UFO UpDates - Toronto [60]
   Norweigian Cows Mutilate People - UFO UpDates - Toronto [56]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates - Bob Young [27]
   Re: Pravda - Fifty-Five Years Of Insanity - - Bruce Maccabee [84]
   Re: Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [42]
   Chupacabras Wake Neighborhood - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [76]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - McCoy - GT McCoy [23]
   Re: Norweigian Cows Mutilate People - ebk - UFO UpDates - Toronto [10]
   Re: Roswell UFO Festival 2002 - Stig Agermose [72]
   Scotland 'Top Alien Nation' - Stig Agermose [59]
   'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey - Stig Agermose [57]
   Mysterious Pipes Left by 'ET' Reported from Qinghai - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [35]

  Jun 26:

   Re: urkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser - Jim Speiser [27]
   UFOs & Documentaries - Paul Kimball [58]
   Re: Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   'UFO' Ad Leads Volkswagen Fans To Roswell - Stig Agermose [36]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates - Robert Gates [56]
   UFO Group Speculates On Hole - Stig Agermose [74]
   More On Mystery Hole - Stig Agermose [73]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Easton - James Easton [748]
   Mutilated Bovines Baffle Argentines - Stig Agermose [52]
   Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey - - James Easton [87]
   Re: Fortean Times? - John Hayes [19]
   Re: Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day - - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Second Cattle Mute In Uruguay - Scott Corrales [30]
   Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 - Scott Corrales [88]
   Von Daniken's Mystery Park - Chris Rutkowski [10]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [85]
   Filer's Files #26 - 2002 - George A. Filer [508]

  Jun 27:

   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Alexander - James Alexander [25]
   Re: Von Daniken's Mystery Park - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Two New Mute Cases In Entre Rios - Scott Corrales [68]
   Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey - - Jeanne Mackay [46]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 26 - John Hayes [523]
   Re: Blimps - Ledger - Don Ledger [44]
   Secrecy News -- 06/26/02 - Steven Aftergood [62]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Ledger - Don Ledger [11]
   Re: Fortean Times? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [23]
   'UFOs? I've seen 180' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [68]
   Re-post - CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [126]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 357 - Edoardo Russo [75]
   Re: Mantell - Ledger - Don Ledger [58]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - McCoy - GT McCoy [29]

  Jun 28:

   Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180' - Velez - John Velez [47]
   Don Ledger Offline - Stanton Friedman [7]
   Ohio Crap Circle Forged By Massachusettes Clan - Kenny Young [92]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Velez - John Velez [85]
   Re: CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up - - Ives Lewis [48]
   EW: SETI - Are Aliens Already Among Us? - Kurt Jonach [67]
   New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of - Stig Agermose [200]
   Secrecy News -- 06/27/02 - Steven Aftergood [123]
   'AirBoard' The Sidewalk UFO - Stig Agermose [22]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [278]
   Northrop MX324 Photo Gallery - GT McCoy [5]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [28]
   Shipment Of Dishes Expands ET Search - Stig Agermose [106]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 358 - Edoardo Russo [118]
   Fortean Times Site - Mark Pilkington [26]
   Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 - - Sharon Kardol [33]
   Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 - Gildas Bourdais [43]
   More 'Pancakes' For Coleman - Loren Coleman [27]
   Argentine Livestock Ministry Found Nothing - Scott Corrales [25]
   Argentine Animals Dying "From Malnutrition" - Scott Corrales [65]
   Mutilated Boar & Strange Lights In Argentina - Scott Corrales [123]
   Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 - - Scott Corrales [24]
   NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race - Stig Agermose [212]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young - Bob Young [30]
   Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin - Eleanor White [39]
   Mexican Pyramid Sightings? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [9]

  Jun 29:

   Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race - Alfred Lehmberg [28]
   Breakout Of The Fictions - Colin Bennett [199]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [49]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren - Larry Warren [37]
   Secrecy News -- 06/28/02 - Steven Aftergood [63]
   Re: Reed UFO Fraud - Myers - Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog [5]
   'The Scotsman' On Abduction - Stig Agermose [258]
   Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180' - Mortellaro Sr. - James Mortellaro, Sr. [62]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates - Robert Gates [50]
   Re: Don Ledger Offline - Gates - Robert Gates [11]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Morris - Neil Morris [68]
   Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin - Bill Hamilton [43]
   Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin - Bruce Maccabee
   [280]
   To Skeptics Reading This List - Jerry Cohen [14]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [48]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser - Jim Speiser [50]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Sandow - Greg Sandow [112]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [96]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall - Richard Hall [68]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Fleming - Lan Fleming [28]
   SDI - 195 Tonight - UFO UpDates - Toronto [11]

  Jun 30:

   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert - Amy Hebert [41]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [46]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Days - UFO UpDates - Toronto [6]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [59]
   Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin - Boris Shurinov [19]
   News Of Jim, Sr. - Jim Mortellaro [13]
   Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race - Stig Agermose [62]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Friedman - Stan Friedman [111]
   RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Andrew Lavoie [12]
   Re: SDI - 195 Tonight - Velez - John Velez [31]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Rimmer - John Rimmer [53]
   Scotland On Sunday: They're Out There - Stig Agermose [217]
   Re: Birnes on Corso? - Gates - Robert Gates [129]

  Jun 22:

   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Filer - George A. Filer [36]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Moretllaro - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   Re: American Civil War Sighting? - Karl Rotstan [26]
   Secrecy News -- 06/21/02 - Steven Aftergood [131]
   Bob Lazar - True or False? - Glenn Campbell [100]
   Re: Mantell - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [106]

  Jun 23:

   Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [77]
   Re: Blimps - Acres - David Acres [65]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [71]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch - Larry Hatch [63]
   Obviously, It's Almost June 24th - Loren Coleman [45]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Matthews - Tim Matthews [37]
   Chinese Mystery Pyramid - David Acres [22]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White - Eleanor White [19]
   Re: Mantell - Clark - Jerome Clark [57]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [28]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Davey - Virginia Davey [28]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [24]
   Explanation Of 'UFO' Over Dagestan? - Paul Stonehill [2]
   New On Magonia Website - 06-23-02 - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres - David Acres [21]
   PRAVDA.Ru Interviews Stephen Bassett - Stig Agermose [156]

  Jun 24:

   UFOs Spotted In Baku, Azerbaijan - Stig Agermose [22]
   UFOs Over New Hampshire - Stig Agermose [28]
   USUFOIRC Conference - Stig Agermose [69]
   Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe - Stig Agermose [76]
   US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Stanton Friedman [20]
   Re: American Civil War Sighting? - Young - Bob Young [25]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [30]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [27]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [36]
   Re: Obviously, It's Almost June 24th - Hatch - Larry Hatch [27]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [56]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [52]
   June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Loren Coleman [26]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [72]
   Re: USUFOIRC Conference - Anderson - Kathleen Anderson [9]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [12]
   UFOs & Mutilations In Santiago del Estero - Scott Corrales [111]
   Argentine Carcass Count Will Reach 200 - Scott Corrales [51]
   Mutilations Reach Town of Roque Perez - Scott Corrales [29]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [34]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [94]
   Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [35]
   Argentine's SENASA Will Make Initial Reports Known - Scott Corrales
   [39]
   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley - Matt Hurley [29]
   Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen - Brian Vike [18]
   Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Randle - Kevin Randle [79]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [30]

  Jun 25:

   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Lewis - Duncan Lewis [64]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Gates - Rpbert Gates [19]
   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [24]
   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young - Bob Young [16]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates - Robert Gates [26]
   Re: Lazar Movie - Gates - Robert Gates [24]
   Re: une 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [78]
   Re: Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen - Jones - Sean Jones [25]
   Re: Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [15]
   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [40]





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 1

                        Archive Top 20 'Reads' 05-02

From: Moderator
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 05:45:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 05:45:30 -0400
Subject: Archive Top 20 'Reads' 05-02



May 2002's Top Twenty 'Reads' At The UFO UpDates Archive

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates


  1 'Bad Astronomy': Very Bad Indeed? - Chris Rutkowski
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/apr/m05-017.shtml

  2 Of Flying Wings & Hover Cars - Moderator
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m03-008.shtml

  3 The Kokomo Hum - Moderator
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m14-016.shtml

  4 Kennedy Administration On Alien Race Question - Grant Cameron
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m21-006.shtml

  5 Unknown Key Roswell Photos On FBI Site? - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m23-013.shtml

  6 Of Sociopaths & Conspiracy - Alfred Lehmberg
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/feb/m07-003.shtml

  7 Putnam County - Nuwaubian Commune Awaits Spaceship - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m17-005.shtml

  8 Weekly Filer's Files - #10-2002 - George Filer
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m06-023.shtml

  9 'Shockingly Close to the Truth' - A Review - Wendy Connors
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m30-014.shtml

10 Stolen Documents - Joe McGonagle
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m17-004.shtml

11 'Insiders From NASA Speculate' - Jerry Scovel
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m18-018.shtml

12 NASA: US Government & Unidentified Flying Objects - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m12-009.shtml

13 'After Half A Century It's RIP For UFOs' - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m12-007.shtml

14 'X-Files' Ends - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m10-002.shtml

15 Strieber Has More Close Encounters - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m22-013.shtml

16 New Improved NY 'Aliens?' Picture - Dave Acres
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m28-004.shtml

17 More On Kreskin's UFO Prediction - Stig Agermose
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m05-013.shtml

18 John Keel's 'Things From The Sky' Broadcast - Wendy Connors
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m07-006.shtml

19 Coffeeshop Encounter - Mac Tonnies
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m26-003.shtml

20 Spielberg's 'Taken' Project - Steven Kaeser
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m02-015.shtml


ebk









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                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Woods

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:49:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:31:30 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Woods


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:20:14 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:46:52 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

 >>This is why the issue is now dropping off the radar screens.
 >>Maybe I'll soon have to revive the title for my old lecture,
 >>"Whatever Happened to UFOs?"

 >Doesn't anyone consider that 9/11 and its frenzied fallout might
 >be what is diminishing UFO interest?


Not only do I agree with you, Eleanor, that 9-11 has slammed the
brakes on UFOs in general and the Disclosure train in
particular, but I suggested just that in a year end wrap-up on
SDI:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/2001wrap.ra

For saying it, I was soundly thrashed on this List for
being "too negative". Oh well, Heinlein was right, Cassandra
didn't get half the kicking she deserved.

This whole debate underlines the importance of SDI, and in
reading everyone's comments, and thinking up replies, it occurs
to me one path that should, short _and_ long term, generate more
media coverage about UFOs. Complain about it.

When a major case moves... and on this Listm and Rensem a lot of
UFO reports are published less than 24 hours after they occur.

Call your local newspaper, radio and tv station, ask to speak to
the editor, the news director or senior news producer, ask to
know why they felt they could ignore a story covered by
(Whatever the source.)

Here in Canada, _don't_ forget CBC, local and national, CTV
local and national, same for Global, my station CITY-TV and, the
cousin I helped launch, Cable Pulse 24... As well as Broadcast
News and Canadian Press... wire and broadcast services that feed
the smaller Canadian stations.

In the States its A-P Associated Press, or UPI United Press
International... although I'm half certain UPI went mams up
Chapter 13 a while back. Of course the obvious, the local
affilate of the Big three networks... and don't forget Fox, W-B
and the ever-loving CNN.

In the broadcast business the rule of thumb at many places
is... every phone call of praise or complaint is an opinion
shared by a thousand viewers who didn't bother to write or pick
up the phone. Most Stations keep a log of viewers comments where
production staff can read it. At CITY the comments are typed and
posted daily, all senior staff read them on a regular basis.

The squeaky wheel gets greased and, if enough people contact
their local media demanding coverage of current on-going
cases, in time we _will_ see the serious coverage this topic so
richly deserves.

Although, the cynical news-man side of me says that will happen
the same time there's sudden outbreak of ethics among federal
elected officials......


Mike Woods








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              Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - van Hyum

From: Peter van Hyum <pvanhyum@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 09:39:10 +0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:50:45 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - van Hyum


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:20:14 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

Hi Eleanor, Errol, List

 >This is why the issue is now dropping off the radar screens.
 >Maybe I'll soon have to revive the title for my old lecture,
 >"Whatever Happened to UFOs?"

 >Doesn't anyone consider that 9/11 and its frenzied fallout might
 >be what is diminishing UFO interest?


Not being a qualified person in either the fields of Ufology or
psychiatry, and not yet fully across the wide range of
information regarding the former, I tender that the words I had
with you a few weeks ago Eleanor, regarding the Truth and people
not wanting to know it, are ringing true... it is commonly
referred to as 'denial'.

This quote, supposedly from a military pilot (and yes, I believe
made of or into 'sterner' stuff), after discussions regarding
the _re-entry_ of an Unspecified, Unapproved, Untested, Unknown,
Unreleased, Unacknowledged FO.

"I would rather take a rocket ship to Hell than to go back
inside that craft."

http://www.aliensonearth.com/area51/desertrat/1995/dr24/

What message does this convey to 'the common man'?

If you think about our own psyche and be really honest, do you
now look at people of Middle Eastern appearance with a different
view than you might have before 9/11. I know I do, and I
apologise to the 99.9998 % of the people of that origin who are
innocent (the well known majority, who have anything screwed by
the minority).

Does this sound familiar... I would put the rampant skeptics in
this former minority group.

As affirmed believers we are operating from an underdog
position. The skeptics have the power as they have the 'donkey
vote' (the default vote of denial, apathy and ignorance). It is
about marketing...VHS is the much preferred and common video
format, but professionals use (better) BETA format... you know,
those big bulky things that used to have movies on them <g>)

I personally believe, if we want to raise the profile of Ufology
in the public eye, we need the eminently credible Ufologists
like Kevin Randle, Stanton Friedman et al, to focus public
debate on the somewhat more believable and substantive issues
like the relationships of Government facilities, that
surround/adjoin the landings/crash sites of UFOs and include
the high profile cover ups of the 40's and 50's.

Add to this the possible reasons for the location of sites like
Area 51, as we currently understand them, the relationships
between Boron, nuclear reactors and blistered skin, coloured
lights and dizziness, lost time and memory, stopped watches and
power drain etc.....

At the risk of seeming insensitive, we need to raise the issue
to a 60's Vietnam-type awareness. The leadership and guidance of
these aforementioned believers is crucial. Show and tell us the
way!

Critical mass and collective knowledge is what is required here.

There has been considerable debate, on this List, regarding the
validity of photographic evidence which, lets face it, can be
doctored/conjured up by anyone with a PC and an image
manipulation package (just ask the preeminent doctor, Mr.
Spielberg).

And if you don't believe people get a kick out of their name
being up in lights, just take a count on the amount of computer
viruses detected each day across the planet, numbered in their
thousands if not 10's of thousands.


The chances of anything coming from Mars..... but still they
come.


Best regards to all,

Peter van Hyum








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               Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 09:18:26 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:22:34 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 00:40:47 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>I can understand your beef on this, but here's a thought, surely
 >>in the light of 9/11 a UFO seen over New York or Washington for
 >>instance would be of some media interest, judging by the
 >>heightened security.

 >>UFO items are not old news, just not happening news.

 >You know something? If asked informally and away from
 >the office, I'll bet 100% of media people who have rejected
 >UFO stories know quite well UFOs _are_ happening, but
 >are afraid to print any specific case because of fear the one
 >they would choose would turn out to be a hoax.

Unless I'm mistaken all UFO's that appear to be a 'nut's and
bolt's' spacecraft turn out to be hoaxes.
If you can offer video or film evidence on the contrary I'd like
to see it.

 >Perhaps a screening committee approach would help the media exec
 >have the confidence to print/air such a story?

Confidence requires evidence, they don't have the confidence
therefore.....

 >>The media are simply playing to the publics interest.

 >Since the general public never sees UFO news, any interest
 >is stifled before it can bloom. Polls show there is quite a bite
 >of interest by the public.

 >>For example:

 >>I have had it up to here (pointing to my forehead) about David
 >>Beckhams foot injury and whether he can play for England in the
 >>World cup.

 >>This (believe it or not) was the top story, above everything
 >>else that's been going on in the World.

 >>Blair could have given a moonie outside 10 Downing Street, it
 >>still would have played second fiddle to Beckhams foot. What
 >>chance would UFO news have.

 >>That's the way the cookie crumbles.

 >Doesn't have to be that way, but both UFO researchers and the
 >media need to grasp how effective _regular_, quality assured,
 >not splashy and not long, media items can be in motivating the
 >public. If this is done, there will be the necessary public
 >interest to press government to disclose what they know on
 >UFOs.

You mean something along the lines of:

"Dear Government,

Could you please tell us what these little blobs are we keep
seeing in our skies?

We haven't got a clue what they are but there's an awful lot of
speculation going around.

Any information would be greatly appreciated."


 >There is no reason to hide UFO information, is there?

Do you know the term knowledge is power?

Have you ever considered that maybe the Government don't
actually know what these things are?

For them to admit that would deminish them in some way.

All the time you keep putting them on the pedistal of all
knowledge they will always hold power over you.

 >Slow and steady gets the job done.

Small moves Ellie, small moves. ;-)


Dave Bowden








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                Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:24:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 09:31:54 -0400
Subject: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space?


Source: BBC Cambridgeshire,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2016000/2016535.stm

Stig

***

Thursday, 30 May, 2002, 14:18 GMT 15:18 UK

**

Alien life could be out there

*

Could aliens exist as free-floating insects?

*

England's Astronomer Royal says he believes aliens could exist,
possibly as balloon-like creatures floating in dense
atmospheres.

Professor Sir Martin Rees, a leader in understanding the birth
and structure of the Universe, says he remains enthusiastic
about the search for alien life.

But, in a speech on Thursday, he said that attempts to find them
had suffered, in particular, from "flakey" associations with
UFOs.

Professor Rees also said we should stop transmitting messages to
outer space and instead, listen for signals from
super- intelligent computers in the form of strings of prime
numbers or digits.

Speaking on BBC Radio Cambridge he said: "You might find
intelligent life so far away that signals take maybe 10 or 20
years [to get here] - so if we detect the life then we can
listen for their signals.

"But there's no scope for snappy repartee, as it were, because
to send a signal there and back would take decades."

Sir Martin believes life could exist in the form of balloon-
  like creatures the size of insects which might float freely in
space.

His thoughts were made public in a speech to the Royal Society
of Medicine (RSM) and the Royal Society for the encouragement of
Arts, Manufactures and Commerce (RSA)

Other topics touched on what astronomers would be able to tell
us 20 years from now, about life on planets in other solar
systems and the long-range future for human life.

He also delved into the possibility of multiple universes, where
"what we call the laws of nature would be no more than local
bylaws".

Notwithstanding his comments, Professor Rees describes himself
in general as "agnostic" as to whether life exists beyond the
Earth's atmosphere.

**

=A9 MMII








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                        Bentwaters ConSPIracy Cantata

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:50:20 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:46:38 -0400
Subject: Bentwaters ConSPIracy Cantata


Source: The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/friday_review/story/0,3605,724601,00.html


Stig

***

THE SPYING GAME

Bentwaters Airbase has stored nuclear weapons, been the scene of
UFO sightings and was almost bought by yogic flyers. Now, as
part of the Aldeburgh festival, it is to be the venue for a
haunting piece of music inspired by espionage.

**

Andy Beckett reports

**

Friday May 31, 2002

The Guardian

**

Bentwaters is a nice ominous name for an abandoned airbase. One
minute you are driving through softest coastal Suffolk, past
asparagus stalls and pink cottages, the next, guard towers
thrust up behind the hedgerows. At the main gates, there is a
disused control tower and miles of fencing, then an enormous
vista of cracked concrete and asphalt. In the distance are
clusters of blackened and shrunken-looking buildings. If you
continue across the runway, they grow steadily into great
hangars and bunkers, their curves and diagonals halfway between
beautiful and monstrous. The military logos painted on them by
American airmen are still quite visible.

At the furthest edge of the complex, where the only sound is the
wind in the pines, there is a more enigmatic structure. The
Debrief Centre, or "the Star Wars building" as it is more
exotically known locally, is low and grey and windowless. A
thick pebbledash wall, entirely separate from the building
itself, wraps the whole block, screening it from scrutiny or
attack. A pair of baffling cone-shaped towers flank the
entrance. These days, nobody who lives near Bentwaters seems to
know precisely what the building was used for.

A week tomorrow, though, as part of the Aldeburgh festival, this
small blank corner of the airbase is to be reoccupied. There
will be temporary lighting and electricity, and the building's
interior has been touched up a little, but it is hoped that
enough of its Cold War atmosphere will linger for the first
British performance of a conSPIracy cantata, a recent work about
spying and secret government activities by the young Anglo-
Cypriot composer Yannis Kyriakides.

It is an intriguingly haunted piece of music. It uses echoing
pianos, electronic clanks and bleeps, clouds of distortion that
roll in like Suffolk sea mist; most notably, Kyriakides weaves
in actual recorded transmissions from government radio stations
to their agents in the field. The CIA, MI6, Mossad, and the
Czech intelligence service all feature, all communicating in
relentless, number-based codes and deadpan accents. The other
sounds ebb and flow, but the chatter of international espionage
is always there in the background. Spoken lines from the ancient
Greek oracle at Delphi, itself a centre for espionage as well as
prophecy, make the implication of the piece obvious: spying, and
covert government networks, are always with us.

In Cyprus, Kyriakides grew up among unexplained radio masts. "It
is a huge spy centre," he says. "Mossad is there. MI6 is there.
The British have huge transmitters in their bases. I remember a
friend who's a bird enthusiast went to record bird noises in the
mountains, and he kept getting these distortions. He was stopped
by the military."

In recent years, regardless, recordings of intelligence
transmissions have been surfacing on the internet and on CD
compilations. Kyriakides heard about them, listened to some, and
"started reading spy material in general". Part of his
motivation for writing music around this theme was political: "I
have a more or less leftwing persuasion, a suspicion of power
without public knowledge." His next large-scale project is a
"documentary-opera" about the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in
1974, with singers taking the parts of, among others, Harold
Macmillan and Henry Kissinger.

Yet Kyriakides felt fascination as well as distaste at the
clandestine spy broadcasts. "The radio transmissions are so rich
in sound and atmosphere. There's something slow about them. The
performers of my piece have to spend a lot of time doing
nothing, just listening and decoding then reacting."

The otherworldly quality of crackly radio samples has been
exploited by the more adventurous sort of rock musician, such as
Brian Eno and Holger Czukay, for decades. But Kyriakides is
placing his captured transmissions in the more rarified context
of contemporary classical music. He is not worried about the
reception: "I don't want to communicate just to the connoisseur
new-music public. I want to use any sound that exists, not just
culturally-approved sound. I want a few people to start putting
fingers in their ears."

Kyriakides is used to challenging expectations a little. When
his family came to live in England after the Turkish invasion,
he won a music scholarship to Eton. One morning, at school
assembly, Kyriakides and some of his fellow scholars decided to
perform a piece of Stockhausen. "It was fantastic. People were
baffled." What did the audience think of the musicians? "I guess
they thought we were just nerds."

After Eton, he studied music at York University, then moved to
Amsterdam, where kindred spirits and government grants were more
available. Gradually, he abandoned composing for orchestras in
favour of electronics, amplifiers and performances in theatrical
settings. When the Aldeburgh festival suggested that a
conSPIracy cantata be presented in a grand-but-decaying military
location in one of the eeriest parts of Suffolk, he did not take
much persuading.

The area around Bentwaters is probably the closest Britain comes
to the mysterious military-dominated territories of the American
south-west, made infamous in recent decades by UFO hunters and
conspiracy theorists of all kinds. Next door to the airbase is
another vast former airfield, Woodbridge; a few miles to the
east is Orford Ness, a stony peninsula where British weapons
were secretly tested for 70 years in unexplained pagoda-shaped
bunkers. Originally, the plan was for a conSPIracy cantata to be
performed in one of these, but the logistics of transporting the
audience across the coastal creeks and shingle proved too
difficult. Then Jonathan Reekie, who runs the festival, came
across the "Star Wars building" at Bentwaters.

Inside, it is clammy and cold, even on a mild afternoon. Reekie
is considering installing temporary heaters, but otherwise he
wants the claustrophobic low ceilings and crude breezeblock
walls left as they are. The building was completely stripped
when the Americans moved out in the early 1990s; your
imagination is free to roam the corridors, with their silvery
metal doors straight out of Dr Strangelove.

The history of Bentwaters holds enough riddles to keep
conspiracy- hunters occupied. It was built in 1942 and taken
over by the Americans nine years later. Among its official
functions over the years, it provided the "Soviet" aircraft for
Cold War defence exercises, and housed bombers with nuclear
weapons. Its runway was one of the longest in Europe. In
December 1980, an incident occurred in the woods at the runway's
western end that has provoked speculation ever since. Early one
morning, according to documents released by the Ministry of
Defence 20 years later, "unusual lights" were seen in the sky by
American guards at Bentwaters. "A strange glowing
object...metallic in appearance and triangular in shape" was
then spotted above the trees. When it disappeared from view, the
guards searched the woods and found - depending on which of
their accounts you believe - either odd indentations in the
ground and traces of radiation, or a landed spacecraft complete
with "life forms about four feet tall...with big humanoid heads
and dark, catlike eyes."

Five of the MOD documents about all this remain confidential on
the official grounds that they contain secret briefings to
ministers, relate to national security, might alter Britain's
relations with America, or all three. "There are a lot of
military stories and myths about this area," says Reekie.

He hopes to stage musical events in other sections of Bentwaters
during future festivals. There is a metal-lined chamber called
"the hush house" where jet engines were tested, which looks a
little like Warhol's Factory. There are the hangars, currently
full of over-sized old cars left behind by the Americans. There
are the old bomb stores, and sheds with enticing taped-up
doorways - as Reekie drives me round the base, he cannot resist
stopping and pointing. Nowadays, cultural events frequently take
place in ex-industrial sites in cities, he says. In relatively
prosperous country areas like Suffolk, the only similar spaces
likely to be available are derelict military properties. Why not
there too?

He may be optimistic. Since the Americans left, there have been
unrealised plans to turn Bentwaters into a commercial airport, a
leisure park, a prison, emergency accomodation for the homeless
of Ipswich, and a "university of natural law" administered by
the Maharishi Foundation, of Yogic Flying fame. Besides
Kyriakides, the airfield's users currently include makers of car
advertisements and a business rearing free-range ducks. Fashion
photographers, you sense, may not be that far behind.

After an hour at the base on a bright afternoon, it can begin to
feel quite benign: a glowering Cold War compound harmlessly
reduced to a few cottage industries and some arty locations.
Kyriakides's piece will be played in broad daylight - the
evenings in Suffolk in midsummer are too long to wait for dusk -
  which may reduce the intended menace of his conSPIracy cantata.
Except that, in recent months, the idea of international
intrigue, of a Cold War, or worse, has begun to feel familiar
again. It is not impossible to imagine the Americans reoccupying
places like Bentwaters. As long as the aliens don't get there
first.

ConSPIracy Cantata is performed at Bentwaters Airbase,
Rendlesham, as part of Aldeburgh fesival, on June 8. Box office:
01728 687110.. Further performances at Kettle's Yard, Cambridge
(01223 352124), on June 10, and at Ocean, London E8 (020-7314
2800), on June 12.

**

Guardian Unlimited =A9 Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002









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   Jun > Jun 1

                      Huge Orange Lights In Indiana Sky

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:47:30 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:48:17 -0400
Subject: Huge Orange Lights In Indiana Sky


Source: "alt.ufo.reports", May 31, 2002.

Stig

***

Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: Huge orange lights in the sky in rural Indiana
From: dj_luki@[nospam]hotmail.com (Rufus)
Organization: me
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 06:47:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 01:47:36 EST

I live in rural north-central Indiana [near frankfort]. Last
night, the 30th, I was talking and looking at the stars with my
girlfriend. All of a sudden something caught the corner of my
eye. I stood up and saw 2 bright orange lights that appeared to
be very big being very still in the sky.  Three seconds later
they fade out. Another three secs and 3 lights appeared west of
the first set.  Then fading again.. We ran inside to tell her
parents. We came out and looked for about 15 minutes, then the
same light caught my eye. We stood up seeing 3 orange light fade
away. Then 2 seconds later *four* huge orange lights appear in a
vertical line then the middle fades out, then the rest go. I was
scared shitless. bAre these common? Does anyone know what they
are?? Thanks! If anyone is from Indiana make sure to get back
with me.


adam









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                     Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:51:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:51:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White


 >From: Peter van Hyum <pvanhyum@bigpond.net.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 09:39:10 +0800

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:20:14 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 ><snip>

 >>This is why the issue is now dropping off the radar screens.
 >>Maybe I'll soon have to revive the title for my old lecture,
 >>"Whatever Happened to UFOs?"

 >>Doesn't anyone consider that 9/11 and its frenzied fallout might
 >>be what is diminishing UFO interest?

 >Not being a qualified person in either the fields of Ufology or
 >psychiatry, and not yet fully across the wide range of
 >information regarding the former, I tender that the words I had
 >with you a few weeks ago Eleanor, regarding the Truth and people
 >not wanting to know it, are ringing true... it is commonly
 >referred to as 'denial'.
 >
 >This quote, supposedly from a military pilot (and yes, I believe
 >made of or into 'sterner' stuff), after discussions regarding
 >the _re-entry_ of an Unspecified, Unapproved, Untested, Unknown,
 >Unreleased, Unacknowledged FO.

 >"I would rather take a rocket ship to Hell than to go back
 >inside that craft."

 >http://www.aliensonearth.com/area51/desertrat/1995/dr24/

 >What message does this convey to 'the common man'?

That this fellow is certain UFOs are real.

 >If you think about our own psyche and be really honest, do you
 >now look at people of Middle Eastern appearance with a different
 >view than you might have before 9/11. I know I do, and I
 >apologise to the 99.9998 % of the people of that origin who are
 >innocent (the well known majority, who have anything screwed by
 >the minority).

I do not look at Middle Easterners any differently than before
9/11. With crime, it is the criminal's fault, not others of the
same ethnic background. A week after 9/11 I sent emails to all
the local Muslim organizations I could find, telling them I
welcomed them as my fellow Canadians, and that I felt it was
tragic and atrocious that their children were being harassed in
school.

 >Does this sound familiar... I would put the rampant skeptics in
 >this former minority group.

 >As affirmed believers we are operating from an underdog
 >position. The skeptics have the power as they have the 'donkey
 >vote' (the default vote of denial, apathy and ignorance). It is
 >about marketing...VHS is the much preferred and common video
 >format, but professionals use (better) BETA format... you know,
 >those big bulky things that used to have movies on them <g>)

 >I personally believe, if we want to raise the profile of Ufology
 >in the public eye, we need the eminently credible Ufologists
 >like Kevin Randle, Stanton Friedman et al, to focus public
 >debate on the somewhat more believable and substantive issues
 >like the relationships of Government facilities, that
 >surround/adjoin the landings/crash sites of UFOs and include
 >the high profile cover ups of the 40's and 50's.

Yes and the media can help them, without much trouble, by giving
their speeches ongoing coverage, and making sure a debunker does
not get the last word on these spots.

 >Add to this the possible reasons for the location of sites like
 >Area 51, as we currently understand them, the relationships
 >between Boron, nuclear reactors and blistered skin, coloured
 >lights and dizziness, lost time and memory, stopped watches and
 >power drain etc.....

 >At the risk of seeming insensitive, we need to raise the issue
 >to a 60's Vietnam-type awareness. The leadership and guidance of
 >these aforementioned believers is crucial. Show and tell us the
 >way!

No one has tried ongoing picketing yet. Why not?

Afraid of ridicule? As one who pickets for another cause subject
to government denial and ridicule, I can tell you first hand
that for every one of the (very few) ridiculers, there are
others who come along and congratulate me for having the courage
to tell the public about the other issue.

I am certain that UFO disclosure picketers would not find as
much on-site ridicule as perhaps they think. In fact, I think
such picketers would be overjoyed at the amount of support they
would find. It really raises your spirits when cars go by, honk,
and give you thumbs up when you're out on a cold, dark winter
day.

With so much support indicated in the polls, at the very least
one continuously manned picket site could be accomplished at
least during good weather. I'm sure there are enough supporters
who could spare a few vacation days - many people don't take
all their vacation anyway.

You want something, you gotta give something, is what this
situation amounts to, IMO.

 >Critical mass and collective knowledge is what is required here.

As I see it, the polls indicate a substantial mass, and the
information available from private researchers is incredible.
What is needed, in my opinion, is the hard work of picketing,
which is the only affordable way to get past both media and
government.

If I didn't have the other issue that needs my attention, I
would gladly start picketing immediately.


Eleanor White








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                     Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 13:27:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:52:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Hale


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:46:52 EDT
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

 >This is why the issue is now dropping off the radar screens.
 >Maybe I'll soon have to revive the title for my old lecture,
 >"Whatever Happened to UFOs?"

Bob,

I thought you would welcome such a turn in media events?

Most sceptics are baffled why any UFO story hits the news,
especially here in the UK, they feel that such events like the
Chelsea Flower show should get more coverage!

Ultra Clear skies today... off out on a watch tonight!


Roy








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                    Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:59:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:55:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:20:14 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:46:52 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:35:22 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>>>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 08:10:47 +0000
 >>>>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 ><snip>

 >>This is why the issue is now dropping off the radar screens.
 >>Maybe I'll soon have to revive the title for my old lecture,
 >>"Whatever Happened to UFOs?"

 >Doesn't anyone consider that 9/11 and its frenzied fallout might
 >be what is diminishing UFO interest?

Maybe I've missed something, but what is this evidence that
interest has dropped off? I have a web site, www.vgl.org, that
is tangentially related to UFOs (the possibility of artificial
structures on Mars). On checking the monthly statistics for web
page accesses, I could see no evidence of any permanent decline
in interest. In August, there were 2273 visitors. In September
the number dropped off to 1847 and stayed below 2000 for several
months. The sudden drop-off by the end of September _might_ have
had something to do with the events of Sept. 11. That would be
completely understandable, given the enormity of what happened
on that day. But the effects weren't permanent.

The average number of visitors is now back up to about 2200 per
month. The number of visitors skyrocketed to over 10,000 in just
the last four days after Richard Hoagland put a link on his web
site to the recent article I posted on stereographic
measurements of the elevations of the Mars Face and
surroundings. (As much as NASA hates the guy, the size of the
audience that RCH commands must give their PR department fits).

I suspect that the major UFO web sites, some of which have a
volume of traffic many times greater than mine, have been
equally unaffected. The answer to the question: "whatever
happened to UFOs?" seems to be that they're on the Internet
after 30 years of government and media "education and debunking"
campaigns as recommended by the CIA's Robertson Panel. There was
nothing much about UFOs in the conventional news media before
9/11, and there's nothing much now. Nothing's really changed in
that regard. What _has_ changed over the past 10 years is the
emergence of the Internet as a major source of information. It's
a radically different medium that may be making manipulation of
public opinion much more difficult now than it used to be.

The content of TV news and newspapers reflects what the owners
and publishers want the public to be interested in. The Internet
reflects what the public is _really_ interested in. In many
respects, the two are apparently quite different.

BTW: if the tensions between India and Pakistan result in
nuclear war, a whole lot more than UFOs will drop off the radar
screen. The situation seems to be shaping up into the worst
threat to civilization since the Cuban missile crisis.








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             Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 12:11:26 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:01:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:24:21 +0200
 >Subject: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space?

 >Source: BBC Cambridgeshire,

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2016000/2016535.stm

 >Stig

 >***

 >Thursday, 30 May, 2002, 14:18 GMT 15:18 UK

 >**

 >Alien life could be out there

 >*

 >Could aliens exist as free-floating insects?

 >*

 >England's Astronomer Royal says he believes aliens could exist,
 >possibly as balloon-like creatures floating in dense
 >atmospheres.
<snip>

Another person happy to wallow in his own ignorance. I 'think' I
am rational so therefore they must be flakey. You will excuse me
if I insult this lowlife without knowing him, because he's done
the same to me. You just know this character thinks he's on a
higher plane than the rest of us, wrapped up in his own
brilliance.

Thanks for warning us about him Stig.


Don Ledger








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                    Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 10:52:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:05:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >Unless I'm mistaken all UFO's that appear to be a 'nut's and
 >bolt's' spacecraft turn out to be hoaxes.
 >If you can offer video or film evidence on the contrary I'd like
 >to see it.


You are mistaken. I think that flat assertion is justified if
you were to read what's been posted on this List over the past
years. I don't see the point in risking carpal tunnel syndrome
by retyping it all here.








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             Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating in Space? -

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 09:53:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:07:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating in Space? -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:24:21 +0200
 >Subject: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space?


Hi Stig,

I found this quite interesting. Dr. Ivan T. Sanderson also
suggested that upper atmosphere insects might possibly be an
alien life form and he was not alone in this hypothesis. I am
reminded of the "Rods" being observed, which I find extremely
interesting, but certainly don't have a clue where to categorize
this phenomena, except in the Fortean arena.

Alfred Loedding, who organized Project SIGN, believed that the
occupants of the crypto-crafts being observed might possibly be
insectoid type beings, which would account for their ability to
make such unconventional maneuvers at great speed in the earth's
atmosphere.

If memory serves (at my age it skids a lot) didn't John Keel
also express the same opinion at one time and didn't someone
express that the Thunderbirds from the Native American legends
also focus on them using the upper atmosphere insects as a
source of food?


Wendy Connors








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                 Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:10:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

<snip>

 >I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA
 >investigator a few years ago when Guy was flying a private plane
 >and had to make an emergency landing on a freeway.

Here is the point I was trying to make. We have good evidence
that Mel Noel, who is also Guy Kirkwood, is not who he says he
is. Don Ecker did an expose of him in UFO magazine and yet, here
we are, suggesting that someone has tampered with his records.

Well, I agree, but I think we know who that was. He has
presented a DD-214 that no one can get through public access.
There is no good evidence that he is who he said he is, or that
his stories are true. Instead we hear that someone tampered with
his records.

As they tampered with Bob Lazar's records when no one could
corroborate what he said.

Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
Army were in administration... which he denies.

Or that Don Schmitt didn't work at the Post Office and that he
had taken classes as several universities that had no record of
him.

I could go on here, but the real point is that we know there are
problems with this but we ignore the problems. Those who had
done what they claim can easily prove it and don't have to
retreat into someone altered my records... or my missions were
so highly classified that there is no record of them... or the
government is out to discredit me. We continue to support these
people, knowing of the holes, the gaps and the outright
distortions, but as long as we like the message, we ignore the
problem. Then when the media won't talk to us, we blame the
media, rather than those who have lied their way into the
spotlight, been exposed, and endorsed once again. No wonder no
one listens to us. We can't even keep our own house straight.


KRandle








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               Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:06:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 17:13:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:48:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

<snip>

 >>Boycott the enablers.


 >Amy, List, All -

 >I have suggested for years that we do not participate in
 >programs and on venues in which those who have exploited UFOs
 >appear. I have no problem with sharing a stage with Stan
 >Friedman, for example, but balk at sharing it with say, a Don
 >Schmitt. Here is a guy who did a great deal of damage to the
 >Roswell UFO case and to the field. Yet, he still lectures and he
 >still investigates and people believe what he says.

 >I think we can all put together a list of those who don't
 >deserve our support. I'm thinking here of those who have lied
 >about their credentials, lied about their background, lied about
 >what they have accomplished, have been convicted of felonies
 >(and there are several who regularly appear on the lecture
 >circuit), those who had claimed military service they didn't
 >have, and those who are simply unreliable.

 >I'm not suggesting here that I would fail to share a stage with
 >those with whom I disagree. Karl Pflock and I are at opposite
 >ends of the spectrum on some UFO matters, but I respect his
 >research but reject some of his conclusions. I would, however,
 >share the stage with him.

 >I do like this idea of boycotting the enablers because this is
 >the way to eliminate the forum for them and get rid of their
 >opinions. I am not suggesting we boycott the forums of those who
 >disagree, only those who have muddied the waters of Ufology.
 >Refuse to appear with those people. Make it clear that you don't
 >want to have anything to do with them. And use, as a criterion,
 >their lies. Reed is a good example. Schmitt is a good example.
 >Mel Noel is a good example.

We shouldn't boycott the various talk show hosts. I had only
hope that the various talk show hosts would be just as
interested in providing information say about the Reed fraud, as
they do when they breathlessly unload the case in the first
place. Sadly they don't seem inclined to and instead move on to
the next story teller that comes their way. In essence what the
gulliable believers do for the most part.

Recall back in 1997 when people were defending and propogating
the ET going to make mass landings in the desert SW on April
24th Once April 24th came and went we had a few rationalizations
about June, then the Roswell fest in July but as a whole most of
the gulliable went on to the next tale bearer that came along.
Some of the radio show hosts do the exact same thing.


Cheers,

Robert








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                         CI: 06-1-02 Two New Updates

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 17:19:27 -0400
Subject: CI: 06-1-02 Two New Updates


The Cydonian Imperative
6-1-02

See: http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 31)

Radio-Free Cydonia: "Gods Black Space"
by Mac Tonnies

Related links:

http://www.mccrecords.com

Multimedia artist Zakas has included text from the Cydonian
Imperative website in a new song titled "Gods Black Space." The
song deals with extraterrestrial intelligence and secret
agendas. The MP3 is available for download. Enjoy--and check out
the rest of Zakas' online universe while you're at it.

----

Buried "Grid" Resembles Terrestrial Infrastructure

Related links:

http://www.geocities.com/natethegreat2u_2002

[image]

Portion of exposed city-like "grid."

Researcher Nathan has discovered an exotic Martian surface
formation that resembles a partially buried terrestrial city.
While other anomalous "grids" have been detected on Mars,
Nathan's is perhaps the most striking yet. To view his analysis,
click the URL below.

http://www.geocities.com/natethegreat2u_2002/grid.html


-end-








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               Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 16:23:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:43:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:33:19 -0500

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud
 >>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:38:28 -0500

 >>The Reed hoax probably wouldn't have gained any attention if it
 >>hadn't been for those who promoted him on national radio, at
 >>conferences, etc. Reed was not the only one to benefit from his
 >>hoax.

 >>Boycott the enablers.

 >I won't defend a co-conspirator, of course, but the ability to
 >parse the enabler from the co-conspirator can be difficult to
 >do.

Alfred, there is a difference between responsible reporting and
yellow journalism. For example, which do you think is more
responsible for delivering factual information (or something
close to the truth) - CNN or Jerry Springer? Time Magazine or
The National Enquirer? Which would you use in objective
research? Which would you want the public to buy?

 >EBK (myself or even you) can be taken in by hoaxer just as
 >easily as the other hoaxed and earn, for their trouble,
 >innocence and journalistic bravery, your boycott?

Yes, any of us can be taken in by a hoaxer but we can lessen
those mistakes by carefully investigating and researching the
claimant _before_ putting them on the air. It's one thing to
allow just anyone to appear on a show (at a conference, etc.)
and another thing to actively screen prospective guests. (I have
no idea what EBK does on his show as I have never tuned in.)

 >Then we get
 >_no_ unfiltered information. The "enabler" has a bigger voice
 >and a wider reach and is, many times, the only reason we get the
 >information we get, at all.

And it is _because_ the program hosts (producers and directors)
have a bigger voice and wider reach that they have a greater
responsibility to seek quality over quantity in the guests they
share with the public. I realize it's hard to find high quality,
honest guests week after week especially when it comes to the
study of phenomena but I'd rather have all music than listen to
some lunatic spread all kinds of BS to the world through
national and international radio, TV, etc.

When it comes to phenomena, especially UFOs, quality research
and qualified researchers are few and far between. However,
there are plenty of theorists with wild ideas and claims willing
to share their thoughts with anyone who will listen.
Unfortunately, many of these programs on the airways will do
anything to boost ratings or just keep the show on the air so
they put just about anyone on the air. Here and there they share
interesting research/information but by and large they go for
quantity over quality - anything to keep the audience's
attention.

It does no good to complain to the program hosts, producers
and/or directors because they focus more on the ratings than the
content of their programs. (Even though hoaxes have been clearly
demonstrated to Art Bell he continues to present/promote them on
his programs and on his web site.)

 >No -- to keep the facilitators,
 >like EBK, in business they can't be made to pay the freight of a
 >lying sociopath until they collude in the lie... then they
 >_earn_ their candidacy for chemical castration and punitive
removal from the journalistic gene pool..... <g>

I never even mentioned EBK, Alfred, you did. I thought we were
talking about the Reed hoax and those involved. But any median
available to large populations must be held responsible for the
content of the programs presented.

Actually, we are all enablers (what you have changed to
"facilitators") as long as we accept the status quo and do
nothing to change it. As long as we _allow_ low quality,
sensationalized materials to permeate the UFO community, we
promote the very concepts we abhor. Each hoax, each lie, each
unfounded claim contributes to the image we, as a community,
project to the world. We increase the "giggle factor" by
allowing the nut cases to speak for us.

High quality research and information is available yet is rarely
found on shows like Art Bell and Jeff Rense because... the
producers and directors are myopic. They see only that which
fits what I have come to call the "UFO/alien paradigm". If it
looks like a UFO, flies like a UFO, acts like a UFO, then it
must _be_ a UFO and is therefore, news. Any being which cannot
be identified as human must come from another planet or be a
new, exotic species. Anything suggesting otherwise is not part
of the "UFO/alien paradigm" and virtually invisible to those who
sell sensationalism . As long as the media stays locked into the
UFO/alien paradigm, so will the public. This is why nothing
really changes, it's a viscous circle.


A. Hebert






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               Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 16:56:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:45:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:48:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud - Hebert
 >>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:38:28 -0500
 >><snip>
 >>Boycott the enablers.

 >Amy, List, All -

 >I have suggested for years that we do not participate in
 >programs and on venues in which those who have exploited UFOs
 >appear. I have no problem with sharing a stage with Stan
 >Friedman, for example, but balk at sharing it with say, a Don
 >Schmitt. Here is a guy who did a great deal of damage to the
 >Roswell UFO case and to the field. Yet, he still lectures and he
 >still investigates and people believe what he says.
<snip>

I couldn't agree with you more, Kevin, but it won't stop either
the hoaxers or the enablers. And if those with real research and
high quality information stop appearing simply because they don't
want to be on the same stage as trash, then all that will be left
is...trash.

 >I do like this idea of boycotting the enablers because this is
 >the way to eliminate the forum for them and get rid of their
 >opinions. I am not suggesting we boycott the forums of those who
 >disagree, only those who have muddied the waters of Ufology.
 >Refuse to appear with those people. Make it clear that you don't
 >want to have anything to do with them. And use, as a criterion,
 >their lies. Reed is a good example. Schmitt is a good example.
 >Mel Noel is a good example.

 >If we begin a self policing, maybe we can begin to move into the
 >arenas that matter.

My suggestion to boycott was really just wishful thinking. You
and I both know few people are able or willing to descriminate
between what may be fact and what may be fiction. As long as
there is an audience for junk media, it will survive and thrive.

This does not, however, mean we must give up. What I'd like to
see are more programs that focus on genuine research rather than
the usual mix of New Age-Spiritualism-UFO-Alien-poopourri. I'd
give my right...foot to attend a small, research oriented
conference in which only a few qualified researchers present
over a large, mixed bag, anyone-can-share conference.
Unfortunately, those who organize conferences (and TV, radio
programs) focus more on entertainment than on research and don't
seem to recognize the difference.


A. Hebert








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               Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:58:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:47:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:06:21 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:48:44 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

 ><snip>

 >>>Boycott the enablers.

 >>Amy, List, All -

 >>I have suggested for years that we do not participate in
 >>programs and on venues in which those who have exploited UFOs
 >>appear. I have no problem with sharing a stage with Stan
 >>Friedman, for example, but balk at sharing it with say, a Don
 >>Schmitt. Here is a guy who did a great deal of damage to the
 >>Roswell UFO case and to the field. Yet, he still lectures and he
 >>still investigates and people believe what he says.

 >>I think we can all put together a list of those who don't
 >>deserve our support. I'm thinking here of those who have lied
 >>about their credentials, lied about their background, lied about
 >>what they have accomplished, have been convicted of felonies
 >>(and there are several who regularly appear on the lecture
 >>circuit), those who had claimed military service they didn't
 >>have, and those who are simply unreliable.

 >>I'm not suggesting here that I would fail to share a stage with
 >>those with whom I disagree. Karl Pflock and I are at opposite
 >>ends of the spectrum on some UFO matters, but I respect his
 >>research but reject some of his conclusions. I would, however,
 >>share the stage with him.

 >>I do like this idea of boycotting the enablers because this is
 >>the way to eliminate the forum for them and get rid of their
 >>opinions. I am not suggesting we boycott the forums of those who
 >>disagree, only those who have muddied the waters of Ufology.
 >>Refuse to appear with those people. Make it clear that you don't
 >>want to have anything to do with them. And use, as a criterion,
 >>their lies. Reed is a good example. Schmitt is a good example.
 >>Mel Noel is a good example.

 >We shouldn't boycott the various talk show hosts. I had only
 >hope that the various talk show hosts would be just as
 >interested in providing information say about the Reed fraud, as
 >they do when they breathlessly unload the case in the first
 >place. Sadly they don't seem inclined to and instead move on to
 >the next story teller that comes their way. In essence what the
 >gulliable believers do for the most part.

 >Recall back in 1997 when people were defending and propogating
 >the ET going to make mass landings in the desert SW on April
 >24th Once April 24th came and went we had a few rationalizations
 >about June, then the Roswell fest in July but as a whole most of
 >the gulliable went on to the next tale bearer that came along.
 >Some of the radio show hosts do the exact same thing.

A radio show host should take full responsibility for not
reporting all of the facts in these matters - especially when
they claim to be a reporter. Instead, it appears they just tuck
their tail between their legs and run the other way while
proclaiming "It's only entertainment!" after they call it
"breaking news".

I disagree about boycott, we should do it to those irresponsible
morons out there who are not willing to expose hoaxes when
they're uncovered - especially after they've promoted the hell
out of them.

You'd think that in the case of 'Dr. Reed', Bell would have been
the first to respect those tuning into his program and to
respect the researchers out there by immediately exposing this
fraud.  This doesn't include the ethical broadcasting issues at
hand either.  You'd think someone would have the courage to
disclose the facts to the public...

By the way, Bell has ignored repeated requests to comment on
this issue. One of my sources says he has been in contact with
"Dr.Reed" and his associates about this.  Don't be surprised if
they return to Bell's program sometime soon.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or your inability to decide whether you're a
journalist or an entertainer - you can't have it both ways...







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   Jun > Jun 1

                  Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Kelly

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 18:44:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:51:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Kelly


 >From:Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

<snip>

 >I could go on here, but the real point is that we know there are
 >problems with this but we ignore the problems. Those who had
 >done what they claim can easily prove it and don't have to
 >retreat into someone altered my records... or my missions were
 >so highly classified that there is no record of them... or the
 >government is out to discredit me. We continue to support these
 >people, knowing of the holes, the gaps and the outright
 >distortions, but as long as we like the message, we ignore the
 >problem. Then when the media won't talk to us, we blame the
 >media, rather than those who have lied their way into the
 >spotlight, been exposed, and endorsed once again. No wonder no
 >one listens to us. We can't even keep our own house straight.


I agree with you Kevin. However the media, especially the
television news form, has acted so irresponsible on the
reporting of the UFO case, especially when they keep putting on
people that will only say incredulous things.

In Phoenix, we have a local affiliate that usually puts on the
obviously deranged, delusional person that says the outrageous
things to pump up their ratings. Who cares about responsible
Ufology as long as the ratings go up?

I interviewed a person who claimed that black helicopters had
followed her and her husband in over four different States
because she had seen amber lights in the sky, and had reported
it. She then implied that the government had murdered her
brother because she had reported her UFO experience. She then
informed me that the government was tracking her phone calls on
her caller I.D. box.

Two months later she was on television telling a wide audience
about her experiences on that same affiliate station.

That makes us all look bad who are connected with serious study
of the subject and there is nothing we can do about it.

Hopefully, this is only a Phoenix aberration?

Jim Kelly







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   Jun > Jun 2

                   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 10:07:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:20:55 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Maccabee

 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:31:12 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'


 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:27:58 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Media Not Covering Up
 >>>Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:29:58 -0400

<snip>

 >>Have you read 'The Missing Times'? It describes a few nuances in
 >>the situation. Some regional and local small-town papers do, in
 >>fact, do a reasonable job of covering UFO stories. It's the
 >>national media (TV networks, the New York Times, etc.), that do
 >>an abysmal job of it.

 >I asume the thrust of 'The Missing Times' is that through
 >government pressure and or business collusion there's concerted
 >effort to keep UFOs out of the media. Did a pretty poor job with
t>he Fox Network, between the X-Files, Sightings, even the Alien
 >Autopsy (Quelch those flames right now... I'm not saying anything
 >about A-A one way or the other) although don't press me to be
 >completely convinced those were 100 % good.

A point should be, made here: don't mix up serious reporting
with engtertainment. It's OK for the major or minor press to
present UFO related stuff, including for example sightings by
police officers (who can't distinguish stars from UFOs... e.g.,
Jan 5, 2001 in Ohio,was it?),as eyes-wide-open-ga-ga-wow-what-
  was-that entertainment. The friction doesn't come until some
reporter tries to stand back from the fray and say, let's treat
this seriously, folks. Hence there was no problem with X files,
Alien Autopsy, etc. All of those were so ":ridiculous": the
government didn't have to comment. However, if the major news
media did major articles claiming that at least some UFOs were
ET craft (as almost happened 50 years ago!) you would find the
gov't responding with alacrity.

 >And we're living in a multi-channel universe. While the
 >government could be leaning on the networks and the Times - I'm
 >convinced CBS has been a branch of U.S. government propaganda on
 >at least two major issues - the fact remains that the average
 >journalist... especially the TV breed have monster-egos. If
 >they've sufficent proof of the existence of aliens, they
 >couldn't keep silent unless they were dead because the story is
 >so massive - the rewards would be breath-taking. Virtually any
 >journalist... print, radio or TV, would likely sell their mother
 >into slavery to get the story out and collect the goodies
 >generated thereby.

The problem is with "sufficient proof". Before the major press
stick their neck out they want "absolute" proof... undeniable
(means scientifically verified at institutions) piece(s) of a
spacecraft, guaranteed alien body, etc., Until then, it's all
entertainment.

 >>I've never gotten the impression that TV news operates that way.
 >>In the US, there's a saying about how TV news stations decide
 >>what to cover that's a bit different than Sagan's lofty if
 >>ambiguous standards of evidence: "if it bleeds it leads."

 >I led with my chin there and now I'm bleeding... I blush and
 >hang me head when I say that is just as true here as there.
 >_I've_ told rookies "If it bleeds, it leads...", soh they can
 >focus in faster. But remember, the media also operates under the
 >principal of not letting the facts get in the way of a good
 >story... and if we had a little something to back those UFO
 >claims... its such a _good_ story.

Bad boy! My version is this: the press goes for the throat. A
juicy UFO story is nice, more witnesses the better (e.g.,
{Phoenix. 1997, Carteret, 2001) but so what? witnesses (even
with videocam's) can be fooled. So, take the witness' stories
and then counterbalance that with a standard statement by the
AF... "The Condon commision found no evidence of... the
government denies knowledge... no unknown technology ...
witnesses make mistakes... government does not investigate...
etc. (Pardon me while I throw up!)








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   Jun > Jun 2

               Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:33:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:33:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:58:39 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

<snip>

 >A radio show host should take full responsibility for not
 >reporting all of the facts in these matters - especially when
 >they claim to be a reporter. Instead, it appears they just tuck
 >their tail between their legs and run the other way while
 >proclaiming "It's only entertainment!" after they call it
 >"breaking news".

There is no reason for a radio (or television) talk show host
(or producer) to take responsibility for not reporting all the
facts about anything unless the public demands it.  The problem
is that many of the least credible programs have a significant
number of listeners (or viewers).  The general public,
unfortunately, views most of this genre as a form of
entertainment.  If the public demands a more serious approach to
the subject, the focus will change.  Art Bell keeps telling his
audience that he expects them to make up their own minds, and he
focuses on the subjects that will bring in the most ratings.
 From an economic standpoint, his business model make a lot of
sense.  But, it certainly impacts the credibility of the field.

 >I disagree about boycott, we should do it to those irresponsible
 >morons out there who are not willing to expose hoaxes when
 >they're uncovered - especially after they've promoted the hell
 >out of them.

 >You'd think that in the case of 'Dr. Reed', Bell would have been
 >the first to respect those tuning into his program and to
 >respect the researchers out there by immediately exposing this
 >fraud.  This doesn't include the ethical broadcasting issues at
 >hand either.  You'd think someone would have the courage to
 >disclose the facts to the public...

 >By the way, Bell has ignored repeated requests to comment on
 >this issue. One of my sources says he has been in contact with
 >"Dr.Reed" and his associates about this.  Don't be surprised if
 >they return to Bell's program sometime soon.

Seems to me that he has used this tact in other cases where his
guest's predictions failed to materialize.  One also can't
ignore the impact of his show on some people, but again, it's
economics.

Steve








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   Jun > Jun 2

             Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 23:15:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:36:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space? -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:24:21 +0200
 >Subject: Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space?


 >Source: BBC Cambridgeshire,

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2016000/2016535.stm

 >Stig


 >Thursday, 30 May, 2002, 14:18 GMT 15:18 UK

 >Alien life could be out there



 >Could aliens exist as free-floating insects?

 >England's Astronomer Royal says he believes aliens could exist,
 >possibly as balloon-like creatures floating in dense
 >atmospheres.

 >Professor Sir Martin Rees, a leader in understanding the birth
 >and structure of the Universe, says he remains enthusiastic
 >about the search for alien life.

 >But, in a speech on Thursday, he said that attempts to find them
 >had suffered, in particular, from "flakey" associations with
 >UFOs.


Converse.

Ufology has suffered from the tenuous association with some
flaky astronomers.... especially those who propose gas-bag
aliens.








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   Jun > Jun 2

               UFO Frauds [was: Possible Action Pending ...]-

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 17:40:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:41:31 -0400
Subject: UFO Frauds [was: Possible Action Pending ...]-


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:48:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

 >I have suggested for years that we do not participate in
 >programs and on venues in which those who have exploited UFOs
 >appear. I have no problem with sharing a stage with Stan
 >Friedman, for example, but balk at sharing it with say, a Don
 >Schmitt. Here is a guy who did a great deal of damage to the
 >Roswell UFO case and to the field. Yet, he still lectures and he
 >still investigates and people believe what he says.

 >I think we can all put together a list of those who don't
 >deserve our support. I'm thinking here of those who have lied
 >about their credentials, lied about their background, lied about
 >what they have accomplished, have been convicted of felonies
 >(and there are several who regularly appear on the lecture
 >circuit), those who had claimed military service they didn't
 >have, and those who are simply unreliable.

 >I'm not suggesting here that I would fail to share a stage with
 >those with whom I disagree. Karl Pflock and I are at opposite
 >ends of the spectrum on some UFO matters, but I respect his
 >research but reject some of his conclusions. I would, however,
 >share the stage with him.

 >I do like this idea of boycotting the enablers because this is
 >the way to eliminate the forum for them and get rid of their
 >opinions. I am not suggesting we boycott the forums of those who
 >disagree, only those who have muddied the waters of Ufology.
 >Refuse to appear with those people. Make it clear that you don't
 >want to have anything to do with them. And use, as a criterion,
 >their lies. Reed is a good example. Schmitt is a good example.
 >Mel Noel is a good example.

Kevin,

If the criteria for boycotting speakers includes those who have
deliberately muddied Ufological waters, participated in hoaxes,
and are simply unreliable, then I am rather surprised that Karl
Pflock isn't one of those near the top of your list.

To take a particularly egregious example out of his past, how
about his participation in a cattle mutilation hoax in the early
1980s? This is all dealt with in great detail in the little
known 1984 book "Mute Evidence" by Daniel Kagan and Ian Summers.
Most people on the List probably don't even know about this.

Pflock, using a false name ("Kurt Peters"), teamed up with a
"private investigator" pushing a phony mutilation conspiracy
[rogue CIA agents field-testing deadly bacteria designed to
selectively wipe out Asians] told to them by a pathological
liar, felon, and conman.

According to Kagan and Summers, Pflock was trying to get a book
publishing deal and possibly a share of the reward money put out
for solving the mutilations.

This has many of the same elements as the modern Jonathan Reed
hoax, including pseudonyms, association with low-lifes, a
preposterous hoax, and all so Pflock could make a buck.

Pflock's "explanation" for all this is incredibly lame, as
outlined in Kevin's "Roswell Encyclopedia." Pflock says he used
the "Kurt Peters" pseudonym because he recognized Kagan and
Summers and possible book-publishing rivals. He didn't want them
to recognize him for who he really was, a rival author [yeah,
right!]. Unfortunately Kevin labels this a "harmless deception."

As for his association with the conmen and their idiotic cattle
mutilation conspiracy, Pflock says he was just looking for a
book-writing project. Talk about bottom feeding!

Pflock obviously finds his past "Kurt Peters" hoax episode
highly embarrassing and still tries to make light of it. But
however he tries to spin it, it is a good indication of just who
we are really dealing with.

We could go on about Pflock's suspicious CIA past, such as how
he just happened to join NICAP and became chairman of NICAP's
Washington, D.C. subcommittee while other CIA operatives were
probably trying to destroy NICAP from within.

Well maybe that was all a big "coincidence", but how about the
following examples of how Pflock has muddied the waters since
then:

Remember how he tried to "explain" Roswell initially as the
crash of a non-existent flying wing? Then he got religion and
found Project Mogul, something that actually existed. Or how
about another of his dumb Roswell "explanations" that the small
caskets of Glenn Dennis' story were needed for the child victims
of an equally non-existent 1947 Roswell polio epidemic?

Here is Pflock and the polio epidemic nonsense on Updates:

http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/jan/m09-022.shtml

Here is Pflock at least apologizing for the misinformation:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/feb/m03-004.shtml

Then there was the curious alteration of Roswell Daily Record
stories put on Congressmen Schiff's Web page while Pflock was
providing "informal assistance" (his words) to Schiff during his
Roswell investigation, and Pflock's wife, a member of Schiff's
staff, was placed in charge of handling it. The alterations had
Mack Brazel saying exactly the opposite of what he really said
and tried to paint Jesse Marcel as the sole perpetrator of
Roswell. Here's an old Usenet post about it:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=roswell+schiff+rudiak+brazel+daily+record+pflo
ck+group:alt.paranet.ufo&hl=en&lr=&selm=644qml%24n4h%40eve.enteract.com&rnum=1

How about Pflock's use of flagrant character assassination and
lying to dismiss Roswell testimony, Jesse Marcel again being a
case in point? Some examples from Updates past and my responses:

http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m28-004.shtml
http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m28-001.shtml
http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m06-012.shtml

Who is Karl Pflock? Pflock is a debunker, pure and simple. As
I'm sure Kevin remembers, Sheridan Cavitt, of all people, summed
him up pretty well in his 1994 Air Force interview: "Pflock is
OUR debunker. I lean towards him."

For some reason there is a Ufological double standard in the
treatment of dishonest debunkers (is there another kind?) posing
as "Ufologists" vs. dishonest Ufologist "advocates". The
"advocates" exposed as liars, frauds or weasels are banished
from the kingdom. But the Ufologist/debunkers receive a "get out
of jail free" card, and are free to defraud and defraud again.

If an "advocate" had been caught red-handed in a sleazy hoax
like Karl Pflock was by Kagan and Summers, that would have been
it. Their credibility would have been permanently shot and they
would have been thrown out with the trash. Such things happened,
e.g., to Bill Moore and Bob Oechsler (despite having actually
done some good research along the way).

But Pflock is still with us, to be treated as an esteemed
colleague worthy to share the stage with. I'm afraid I don't get
it.


David Rudiak










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   Jun > Jun 2

                       'Invasion Washington' A Review

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 23:16:57 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:03:31 -0400
Subject: 'Invasion Washington' A Review


Invasion Washington
by Kevin Randle

reviewed by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html

Kevin Randle's 'Invasion Washington' is the definitive account
of the 1952 Washington radar-visual UFO sightings, in which
commercial and military pilots described inexplicable nocturnal
lights in the vicinity of the Capitol.

As usual, Randle is ufology's Joe Friday; while 'Invasion
Washington' is often dry, its meticulous presentation frames the
1952 UFO wave politically, sociologically, and scientifically.

As an armchair ufologist convinced that the 'Washington
Nationals' constitute one of the defining UFO events of the
century, Randle's investigation comes as an unusually
nonsensational treat. Straight-forward and capably argued,
'Invasion Washington' deserves a large audience.








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                              Death of Ufology

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:05:28 -0400
Subject: Death of Ufology


Ufology is in a state of self denial. For most intents and
purposes it appears to be a dead issue. Why is this? Because it
is practiced by few and infiltrated by the many, who fail to
realize the importance of the phenomena as a scientific endeavor
worthy of respect and appreciation for its unique nomenclature
of a mystery needing clear explanation.

Saddling the study of the phenomenon through various avenues,
such as applying close-ended skepticism, debunking through
ignorance or hidden agenda and expounding upon it with non-
factual data and hypotheses and enlarging the scope of Ufology
to include all areas of Fortean variety, cheapens the scientific
quest for understanding and explanation.

Ufology, as a scientific area of study and research, fails on
other levels as well. It fails to evolve by the normal processes
as other sciences have accomplished. In almost sixty years the
failure to formulate and put into place a specific language for
understanding, such as found in other sciences, so that it can
be properly discussed and taught. All formal sciences have
formulated a specific language for a particular area of study
and research. As an example is the medical profession. All
practioners of the profession speak in a common language that is
universally accepted. It has its own working vocabulary.

Another level upon which Ufology as a science fails, is not
preparing its history as the foundation to prepare the birth of
the science for teaching it to those who would desire
contributing in a meaningful way, now and in the future. All
recognized sciences today initially began from a perceived
paranormal perspective, but evolved through education to the
level of legitimacy.

There are many fallacies adhered to in the field of Ufology by
the majority. Some are innocent, but the majority are entrenched
to the point of strangling a new science to death before it has
had an opportunity to birth. What are some of these fallacies?

First would be the belief by the majority that Ufology
encompasses all areas of the paranormal. It does not. Rods, crop
circles, most alien abductions, spook lights, bigfoot, gnomes,
fairies, channeling, crystal gazing, HAARP, Chemtrails, etc. are
not parts of the science commonly referred to as Ufology. Any
attempt to associate these with Ufology is an egregous
intellectual error.

Secondly, science and academics have taken a hard look at the
data concerning the UFO issue and found it lacking scientific
merit. This is totally false. There has never been an applied,
unbiased, long-term, funded research effort regarding the hard
data and documentation by any area of legitimate sciences in
regards to the issue. The phenomenon has been declared null and
void erroneously. Any scientist that argues from this position
is literally incompetent to speak to the issue and does their
own science an injustice.

Third. Earth is being visited and manipulated by aliens. There
is absolutely no hard evidence or data to prove this and it
remains only a hypothesis. However, enough hard data has been
accumulated to prove that the existence of unknown aerial
objects, of apparent manufacture, do exist and appear under
intelligent control within the atmospheres of the earth and
within near space and have been observed by competent observers.
To say that these objects and the intelligence behind them are
from inner or outer space has not been confirmed. The basic fact
is that nobody knows yet where these objects derive, who or what
is behind their manufacture and operation, nor the purpose for
their appearance.

Fourth, that there is a deliberate cover-up by the U.S. military
and government regarding UFOs, including silencing and
intimidation, has not been proven nor documented by hard data.
Documentation clearly shows that the USAF and the U.S.
government has a considerable track record of ineptness in
handling the UFO question and has failed to approach the issue
with proper analysis.

Fifth. The Roswell incident was the result of a Mogul balloon
mishap is not conclusive and the overall evidence of it being
such is based upon faulty reasoning and manipulation of the
data. Further, there is absolutely no hard documentation at this
time to support the recovery of either crashed UFOs or aliens.
However, circumstantial evidence exists in enough abundance to
assume that the recovery of a crashed UFO and occupant(s)
remains in the realm of possiblity than probability.

Sixth is that the news media deliberately attempts to avoid
reporting solid observations of UFOs and UFO cases. In actuality
the organized news media is no longer a local and national
public watchdog of the people. It has become a conglomerate of
corporations that answers to advertisers and shareholders and is
therefore no longer capable of unbiased reporting.

Seventh. Ufology has deteriorated to the level of impotence and
there is nothing to be learned from the study and research of
the field in general and earlier investigated cases. This
concept is ludicrous. More documentation, data and solid
research has been accomplished in the last decade than in the
prior five decades. Old case investigations are not carved in
stone. As new documentation and research is brought to light,
additions or subtractions to such cases are made and the data
for these cases are clarified.

These are just a few of the glaring fallacies within the field
of Ufology. The quagmire current Ufology finds itself is based
upon many issues, most of which cannot be rectified on an
individual basis. Rectifcation comes over a long period of time
through the efforts of those dedicated to the science of Ufology
by their research and eventual edification of the general public
by the method of teaching the history and research methodologies
and being honest with the documentation, data and hypotheses
presented.


Wendy Connors








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   Jun > Jun 2

             Re: UFO Frauds [was: Possible Action Pending...] -

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 02:20:56 -500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:08:50 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds [was: Possible Action Pending...] -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:48:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud

 >>Boycott the enablers

 >I have suggested for years that we do not participate in
 >programs and on venues in which those who have exploited UFOs
 >appear. I have no problem with sharing a stage with Stan
 >Friedman, for example, but balk at sharing it with say, a Don
 >Schmitt. Here is a guy who did a great deal of damage to the
 >Roswell UFO case and to the field. Yet, he still lectures and he
 >still investigates and people believe what he says.

<snip>

 >I do like this idea of boycotting the enablers because this is
 >the way to eliminate the forum for them and get rid of their
 >opinions. I am not suggesting we boycott the forums of those who
 >disagree, only those who have muddied the waters of Ufology.
 >Refuse to appear with those people. Make it clear that you don't
 >want to have anything to do with them. And use, as a criterion,
 >their lies. Reed is a good example. Schmitt is a good example.
 >Mel Noel is a good example.

 >If we begin a self policing, maybe we can begin to move into the
 >arenas that matter.


Kevin, List and readers:

I think that maybe you are attacking this problem with a false
sense of idealism.

The brutal reality is, you will never get rid of the hucksters -
the market for their brand of hokum is simply too large.
Besides, they are, by definition, masters at disguising their
credibililty problems, and the lies they tell. Deny them one
forum, they will simply move on to the next one. Even if you
were able to get Art Bell to screen them out, someone else will
quickly step in to fill the vacuum.

The only true defense is to establish a separate identity. If
serious UFO investigators could agree on standards and a Code of
Ethics, a Professional Organization could be formed not unlike
the American Medical Association, the ABA, etc. For instance,
you do not _have_ to be a member of your local Home Builder's
Association to be a contractor, but you would far better served
to deal only with HBA members. Only those that measured up to
the standards set by the Association could be admitted, and
would be entitled to use their membership as a way of
establishing credibility.

This would also be a quick, easy method of filtering
participants in a conference setting.

As it stands right now, the onus of picking speakers and
participants in a conference is 100% on the organizing
committee- who may not be totally aware of the backgrounds of
their invitees. I think it very unfair to put the blame entirely
on them. Truth be told, it is just as much the fault of the UFO
research community.

However, if the invitation criteria is membership in the
International UFO Researcher's Association, then those that wish
to organize a conference or select a speaker now have, if they
wish to use it, an easy way to filter out the garbage. UFO-
  ology would also have at its disposal a built in policing tool
to weed out those that might try to use association membership
for other than ethical purposes.

The audiences now would have an valid method of evaluating the
information they receive. Would you trust a builder that had
been thrown out of the HBA?

Just about every profession you can think of has some sort of
organization that tries to set standards for its membership. UFO
researchers do not, and that, I think, is the real source of the
problems in dealing with less than ethical people in UFO- ology.
After all, what exactly _is_ the criteria you must meet to call
yourself a UFO Researcher?


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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   Jun > Jun 2

                           'cfrench' In UFO Field?

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 07:17:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:10:38 -0400
Subject: 'cfrench' In UFO Field?


If you are aware of someone who is known as "cfrench" in the UFO
field (possibly in Australia), please let me know via private
email to steve@konsulting.com.  Thanks.


Steven Kaeser








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                    Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:27:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 10:52:04 -0500
 >Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>Unless I'm mistaken all UFO's that appear to be a 'nut's and
 >>bolt's' spacecraft turn out to be hoaxes.
 >>If you can offer video or film evidence on the contrary I'd like
 >>to see it.

 >You are mistaken. I think that flat assertion is justified if
 >you were to read what's been posted on this List over the past
 >years. I don't see the point in risking carpal tunnel syndrome
 >by retyping it all here.


You're right Lan, I am probably mistaken but I did say in my
post I'd like to see it, I should have added 'not read about
it'.

If you have any links or something that would lead me to
actually seeing a confirmed 'nuts and bolts' alien spacecraft
please let me know.

At the risk of causing carpal tunnel syndrome could I ask if you
might do this 'on-list' since I'm sure there are others out
there who would also be interested.


Dave Bowden








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                  Bigfoot Backers & Flying Saucer Believers

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 11:19:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:18:15 -0400
Subject: Bigfoot Backers & Flying Saucer Believers


Source: The News Register - McMinnville, Oregon

http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=151040


Bigfoot backers treated much like flying saucer believers at
Hillsboro event

Published: June 1, 2002

By STEVE FOX
Of the News-Register

HILLSBORO - Ray Crowe is still waiting for his big moment.

The Hillsboro resident, director of the International Bigfoot
Society, attracted a few hundred fellow bigfoot believers to the
Washington County Fairgrounds in early May.

The 10th annual conference, including speakers, films, artifacts
and memorabilia, was tucked away in a small, dark building in
the middle of the grounds. A dog show drew bigger crowds and the
gem sale had top billing on the street signs.

But that didn't deter bigfoot enthusiasts - witnesses and
wannabe witnesses alike.

Crowe is leader of the pack and an admitted wanna-be.

He was a self-described naturalist when he was invited on a
bigfoot seeking adventure in 1991. He saw tracks and collected 8
1/2-inch red hairs - a major coup for his first time out.

But he wasn't sold on bigfoot from the start. He said it often
takes people a while to overcome the grocery store tabloids that
make bigfoot out to a be a farce.

"It gives the ordinary person the impression we're all nuts,"
Crowe said. "There's nothing we can do. The only thing we could
do is come up with a body."

That isn't so easy.

Finding a body or capturing a bigfoot has proved difficult. Some
at the conference were even so bold to say the government
doesn't want to see it happen.

Why would the government care? "It would put the spotted owl
issue to shame," Crowe said.

Displays during the two-day conference described bigfoot as a
creature up to 8 feet in height and 400 pounds in weight.

Yet, he's elusive. That's why the International Bigfoot Society
has field researchers.

Roland A. Wolfe of Idaho, who wears an official field researcher
badge from the Bigfoot Research Organization, said he
concentrates his searches in Idaho, Eastern Washington and
Eastern Oregon. He said the Blue Mountains are a hot area

Looking at stacks of books lined up on a table during the
conference, he recommended one: "North America's Great Ape: The
Sasquatch," by John A. Bindernagel. Wolfe called it the bible of
bigfoot books.

As North Bend's Gordon Strasenburgh drew the attention of about
150 to the famed Patterson/Gmilin film from 1967, a few
stragglers examined castings and other displays. The most
definitive film known shows a hair-covered beast ambling across
a dry, rocky river bed near Bluff Creek, Calif.

While it hasn't been officially disproved, most are still
skeptical.

It's similar to the 1950 flying saucer photos in Yamhill County.
They draw some serious backers, but most brush it off.

Several conference attendees used the opportunity to share
stories of sightings. Others sought those lucky enough to have
had sightings.

Crowe has not had a sighting. He's investigated several,
however.

He remembered one in the early 1990s, soon after starting the
International Bigfoot Society, from south of Forest Grove.

"Almost anywhere you go you'll find reports," Crowe said.
"Anywhere you don't find reports, it's because there's no one
there to report them."

The bonus, according to Crowe, is that bigfoot research is done
outdoors. And, not just outdoors, but mostly in remote Northwest
woodlands.

Even if he doesn't spot bigfoot, find tracks or discover long
red hair samples, he can live by the common theme of all who
seek the mysterious beast: Any day searching for bigfoot is
better than a day at work.

The News-Register of Jan. 18, 1978, included a brief story on a
reported bigfoot sighting near Newberg. Crowe said he doesn't
know of any official bigfoot field researcher in Yamhill County,
though.

The Molalla River area has been a recent hotbed for sightings in
Oregon, along with sections of the Columbia River Gorge in
Multnomah County and less-populated parts of Clackamas County.

Middle school science teacher Thom Powell of Portland took his
turn at the podium during the international conference. He
lightened the mood, but got his point across: He's a believer.

He also wants some changes to the bigfoot culture, including no
longer capitalizing the word. He said that's like capitalizing
the word deer.

Even better, according to Powell, would be using the terms
sasquatch or wildmen.

While the conference attracted its share of oddballs, there was
a serious tone to many, even if Harry and the Hendersons posters
were included in the displays.








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                    References To Two 60s Mexican Cases?

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 17:40:40 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:23:54 -0400
Subject: References To Two 60s Mexican Cases?



Dear List,

I have the barest details about two sightings from either 1967
or 1968, month unknown. My intention is not to identify the
phenomena but to know whether the incidents have been catalogued
already. The following are fragments from my only source (a very
reliable one).

(1) "I heard from an American friend that some Mormon
acquaintances who lived in San Cristobal had the night before
experienced some extraordinary encounters with some kind of
hovering "spacecraft" that went up and down very rapidly and
shone its very bright lights in a remarkable display...

"...There were several ex-patriate Americans living in or near
San Cristobal at the time, and from some of them I had heard
that a Mormon family owned a large house on a couple of acres
there. The fact that they were Mormon was simply something to
identify them easily I assume. I don't recall if I ever heard
their names, and don't really know why they were called the
Mormons. I had the impression that they were a wealthy couple
that liked San Cristobal de las Casas  enough to move there and
live. All I recall about their experience (I believe it was the
wife who had the experience) was that they were wakened in the
middle of the night and she looked out and saw a bright light
going up and down on their property, like a flying saucer
landing and then taking off and then landing again (it was in a
patch of trees I recall)."

(2) [LOCATION: CHIAPAS, MEXICO] "I'm not sure who saw the light
first, but I think he [a colleague] did. I don't recall any
color, nor any shape; just a light, like a meteor. It was at
night (perhaps 9 or 10 pm), and it looked like an airplane
light, though it was moving so fast across the sky that it would
have had to be pretty close to the ground if it was an airplane,
or so it appeared; yet it couldn't have been an airplane that
close to the ground, or we would have heard the engines. So my
first thought was that it must be a long lasting meteor, and
then I thought it might be one of the satellites that we had
shot into space (I knew about them, but had never seen one). As
we watched it, figuring it was almost certainly a very long
lasting meteor, it zig-zagged, seemingly contradicting all
experience we had had with moving objects. We continued watching
it for what seemed like several minutes I believe, until it was
gone from view...

"...I mentioned that the US had shot a rocket up into the sky
with a satellite attached to it, which might account for the
lighted object we had seen, except for the zig-zagging (it did
that at least a couple of times during our watch)..."

Any feedback would be appreciated and rewarded with a virtual
glass of wine or beer at the very least.

Thank you,

Chris Aubeck








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              CCCRN News: Update - Duncan, BC and Mansfield, ON

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 17:35:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Update - Duncan, BC and Mansfield, ON


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

June 2, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002

UPDATE - DUNCAN, BC AND MANSFIELD, ONTARIO FORMATIONS

An initial field study of the Duncan, BC hay formation (May 29)
has been done by CCCRN field research assistant Tracey Gendron.
Unfortunately, the formation has already been ruined for the
most part, with tracks and pathways cut through it everywhere
now. The additional rings subsequently reported were only marks
made by a family member using a golf cart, to make further light
of the whole event (while the primary contact who reported the
formation is quite interested and open-minded, the rest of the
family is definitely not). The first four flattened areas are
very irregular, with messy, chaotic lays. However, there is an
additional flattened layer underneath the surface layer, at
approximately an 85 degree angle to the top 'flow'. Plants in
these areas have elongated nodes, found in many crop formations
over the years, up to four times the normal length as compared
to controls outside the formation. Other unusual experiences
have also been reported on the property, but these are being
kept confidential by request. A diagram and field report have
been added to the web site and photos will be available soon.
(An interesting sidenote - Tracey is a new assistant as of just
a few weeks ago. She had wanted to attend a talk we did in
Vancouver on May 13 but wasn't able to, which focused largely on
the possibility of our own conciousness being involved in this
phenomenon, ie. peoples' sometimes very strange personal
experiences, coincidences, possible interactions and responses,
etc. As far is known, there haven't been other formations before
in this area (or on Vancouver Island at all) at least not in
recent years, and Tracey, who lives in nearby Victoria, had
offered her services to study any that may happen on the island.
Another one for the synchronicity books...).

A field study of the Mansfield, Ontario grass formation (May 30)
is being done by CCCRN field research assistant Joanna Emery.
The property owner, whose background is physical sciences,
reports they have been appearing on his property over the last
ten years or so. The area is very isolated. The plants do not
appear trampled, but rather gently laid down in 'spilling,
swirling patterns'. A similar, more circular event happened
previously in tiger lilies last summer in which the plants were
flattened in a sweeping rotational pattern (making 21 known
reports now for 2001). All other grass in surrounding areas
looks normal and untouched. Plants are healthy and undamaged but
remain flattened. Similar formations have not been seen in
surrounding hay or pasture fields, all have been within about
150 feet of the farmhouse and have appeared overnight. Other
brief semi-flattenings of plants from gusts of wind during
storms have been observed to be very transient; the plants
always come back up again fairly quickly, not staying down in
place as with these other patterns which are also well defined
in the field yet confined to small areas only. In that sense
they are similar to more 'regular' crop formations, just not as
symmetrical or geometric. A diagram has been added to the web
site and photos will be available soon.

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including field
investigations / ground studies of formations, aerial surveillance
and farming / media awareness initiatives, in particular during the
prime August / September 'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News in the
subject line to: psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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                           Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:52:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:52:00 -0400
Subject: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

Source: The Sunday Times, South Africa

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/06/02/lifestyle/life04.asp

Sunday 02 Jun 2002

Lifestyle features

A restless soul

Books


The man described as 'the Indiana Jones of alternative
archaeology' speaks to Brett Hilton-Barber about paranoia,
reincarnation and his latest book


Is Graham Hancock mad? The question goes through my head as the
controversial Scottish author picks somewhat disdainfully at his
cheesecake and announces that he is turning his back on the
subject that has made him rich and successful.

Hancock achieved cult-hero status during the 1990s for a string
of best-sellers that invoked the wrath of the international
scientific establishment, which he accused of trying to suppress
the truth about ancient civilisations. His populist mixture of
speculation and science was best typified by Fingerprints of the
Gods, which was translated into 20 languages. Altogether he has
sold more than four million books.

Now the man described by the London Sunday Times as the "Indiana
Jones of alternative archaeology" wants to give it all up. His
latest book, Underworld, is his last word on the subject, he
says decisively during our discussion at a Waterfront restaurant
in Cape Town.

"I'm genuinely really tired of the battle and the personal abuse
I've taken for the best part of a decade," he explains. "It
hurts, it bruises and it damages... Part of it is also a feeling
that I've probably taken it as far as I can with Underworld. I'd
rather go out on a high note on this subject and I think
Underworld is that high note."

Underworld is very different from his previous works in that it
is much more scientifically objective and less provocative. It
convincingly argues that the earliest known civilisations of the
Middle and Far East were predated by a cluster of coastal
cultures that were swamped by a sudden change in sea levels more
than 11 000 years ago, and that this event was the foundation
for the flood myths that are to be found in the Bible and other
ancient writings.

"I deliberately set out to write a more balanced book that drew
on scientific evidence that could be objectively assessed," says
Hancock. "I felt it was important not to ignore what my critics
were saying to me."

The 51-year-old author, who is now based in Devon, England,
accepts that some of the assumptions behind his earlier writing
were scientifically questionable and that conventional
archaeologists were perhaps justified in dismissing him. "I was
provocative and challenging and sometimes wrong.

"Had I known the scrutiny under which Fingerprints of the Gods
would be placed and the kind of hostility it would generate, I
may have written a different book ." He pauses before adding
hastily, "I'm not putting it down. It was right for the time, it
stirred up a hornet's nest and made people think about things
they hadn't thought of before. A more balanced book might not
have had the same effect."

Hancock claims there is a more sinister aspect to the criticism
against him, and that he has been subjected to a concerted
campaign by a shadowy US organisation called the Committee for
the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
(CSICOP) which he says has the objective of stifling alternative
viewpoints to conventional science.

This is the stuff of conspiracy theories. I gently suggest he's
become paranoid.

He smiles and nods. "I suppose I am a bit paranoid. But when a
corporation like the BBC spends a quarter of a million pounds to
produce a documentary to discredit a writer, you're up against a
major opponent."

The programme, done by BBC Horizon, lashed Fingerprints of the
Gods as speculative quasi-science.

"It was extremely personal and critical and what they didn't
tell their audience was that the two principal witnesses against
me were members of CSICOP. It made me feel a bit got at. "

As he tells me about his life, it becomes clear that Hancock's
sensitivity to criticism is in part a protection of his personal
beliefs. The son of a missionary surgeon who travelled
extensively, Hancock rejected Christianity at an early age,
which he says was a reaction against his upbringing and a
consequence of his exposure to foreign cultures. However, his
atheism was eroded by research into ancient civilisations.

"I do believe there is some form of intelligent mind at work in
the universe and that life is not accidental. I believe there is
life after death. Our life is the opportunity to prepare for a
rather terrible journey that we have to make after death, and if
we waste that opportunity the journey will go for us very badly.
In the worst case, where the individual has calculatedly pursued
evil, it leads to the annihilation of the soul. But if you live
your life right - not just morally - but in the pursuit of
knowledge, then there is a resurrection. I like to quote
Voltaire and say it's no more extraordinary to be born twice
than it is to be born once."

So with the curtain closing on his decade-long investigation
into lost civilisations, what will his next book be?

"Human origins," he says, a subject to which he admits only
superficial knowledge. I use the opportunity to give him an
overview of human origins from a South African perspective, the
subject of In the Footsteps of Eve, [published by National
Geographic] the book I co-authored with Wits scientist Lee
Berger. He seems genuinely interested and I give him a copy of
the book.

Hancock begins to look tired , in part because his punishing
schedule of promoting Underworld internationally is catching up
with him. But I detect a deeper fatigue, one born from a
restlessness of the soul.

He looks reflectively at the teacup on the table in front of
him. "I suppose I am a bit restless. I think a rather rootless
existence as a child made me a marginal character. I always saw
myself as an outsider, on the edge looking in."

As a result of being continuously on the move his personal
relationships have suffered. His two previous marriages fell
apart through neglect, and he has sworn to avoid this happening
with his third wife, Malaysian photographer Santha Faiia
(responsible for most of the photographs in Underworld).

Does he have unfulfilled ambitions?

"I'd like to stop feeling restless. I'd like to feel more
settled," he says.

As he leaves for the airport, I understand that he is not mad,
just terminally restless, and that his wanderlust is probably
what distinguishes him as a writer.

Underworld: Flooded Kingdoms Of The Ice Age
is published by Michael Joseph, R250


[UFO UpDates thanks 'The Anomalist' www.anomalist.com for the lead]






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                   Re: Graham Hancock 'Quits'? - Thompson

From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 15:10:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 15:45:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Graham Hancock 'Quits'? - Thompson


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:52:00 -0400
 >Subject: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

<snip>

 >Hancock claims there is a more sinister aspect to the criticism
 >against him, and that he has been subjected to a concerted
 >campaign by a shadowy US organisation called the Committee for
 >the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
 >(CSICOP)



Whatever else you can say about CSICOP, they're not "shadowy".







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                    CSICOP [was: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?]

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:04:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 17:25:34 -0400
Subject: CSICOP [was: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?]


 >From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 15:10:24 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:52:00 -0400
 >>Subject: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

 >>Hancock claims there is a more sinister aspect to the criticism
 >>against him, and that he has been subjected to a concerted
 >>campaign by a shadowy US organisation called the Committee for
 >>the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
 >>(CSICOP)

 >Whatever else you can say about CSICOP, they're not "shadowy".

No. But they are doctrinaire, determined to denigrate any
opinions that dissent from theirs, and extraordinarily ill-
informed about UFOs. Their self-appointed role of defending
"science" against "dangerous" and "anti-scientific" views is
almost laughably unscientific and anti-scientific.


- Dick









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                     Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:13:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:08:48 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Young


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 10:07:02 -0400
 >Subject: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:31:12 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >A point should be, made here: don't mix up serious reporting
 >with engtertainment. It's OK for the major or minor press to
 >present UFO related stuff, including for example sightings by
 >police officers (who can't distinguish stars from UFOs... e.g.,
 >Jan 5, 2001 in Ohio >>

Hi, Bruce:

It was Illinois, January 2000, and I wonder why did the police
department's own website say that it was an aircraft?  MIBs?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Jun > Jun 3

                      Crisis of Credibility in Ufology

From: Karl Rotstan <karl.rotstan@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:26:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:11:31 -0400
Subject: Crisis of Credibility in Ufology


Greetings all,

As a long time lurker on this List (and infrequent poster), I
have watched with interest as participants in this forum and
this field have struggled with the challenges posed by the
crisis of credibility within Ufology. While some may choose to
blame the media, government sabotage or professional debunkers
for the disdain with which the field is held by members of the
press and academia, we cannot avoid recognizing that much of the
damage has been self-inflicted by participants in the debate
over the last several decades.

It seems to me that by allowing the discussion to descend to the
level of ad hominem attacks and tolerating uncritical acceptance
of the latest greatest story, we invite those with questionable
intentions to seize control of the dialogue and to tar the
entire field. Royce J. Myers III has done us all a great service
not only by exposing yet the latest fraud to strike the field,
but most importantly, by forcing us into revisiting the methods
by which research is the field is written and promulgated.

One fundamental weakness I see is a lack of transparency in the
methods by which research is conducted and evidence is gathered.
Note that I do not wish to accuse everyone in this field with
such a claim, as it is clear there are several serious
practitioners on this list. However, there seems to be a giant
disconnect between the quality of research done by these
practitioners and the messages which get out into the public
arena via the media. The 'Reed' hoax is but the latest example
of such a disconnect. It seems to me that there is no point in
complaining about the public perception of the field given the
fact that we have yet to clean our own house.

Some on this List (for example, Mr. Hutchinson) have expressed
the belief that there is no hope of getting rid of the
fraudsters and hoaxers in the absence of a professional
organization of serious UFO researchers. While I tend to agree
that such an organization might help, I believe that emphasizing
transparency and scholarly methodology is the key. The field
appears to be lacking in peer review by anonymous referees, and
is replete with intransparent methodology. For example, many
authors will happily rely on anonymous sources or questionable
evidence as the crux of their arguement and are either unable or
unwilling to share either the raw data or its provenance. This
is completely unacceptable and should be condemned as such. The
disproportionate influence that discredited individuals (and
their "evidence") have wielded (and still wield) in this field
is also destructive to serious research.

Might I suggest something analogous to an "Underwriters
Laboratory Seal of Approval" that could be applied to future
research? It could be something as simple as a small logo on the
jacket of a book which would indicate to the public at large
that the research presented had been anonymously peer reviewed
by serious researchers and is untainted by what Mr. Randle aptly
describes as "those who have lied about their credentials, lied
about their background, lied about what they have accomplished,
have been convicted of felonies (and there are several who
regularly appear on the lecture circuit), those who had claimed
military service they didn't have, and those who are simply
unreliable." It would furthermore indicate that the researcher
in question is able and willing to share the raw data in their
possession as well as the methodology used in its assessment.

This should be coupled with a proactive "name and shame"
campaign, similar to what Mr. Myers has done, but extended to
ALL who do damage to the field through shameful or shoddy
research, and most importantly to those who provide a venue for
such "research" to be promulgated.

Finally, a rejection of ad hominem attacks, even when attacked
ourselves, would be a valuable first step to reestablishing
credibility within the field. This mystery is bigger and more
important than any individual or ego and the sooner we treat it
as such, the quicker we may be able to pull ourse lves out of
the quagmire within which we find ourselves today.


Best regards,

Karl Rotstan







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                    Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 19:26:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:15:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Fleming


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:27:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >You're right Lan, I am probably mistaken but I did say in my
 >post I'd like to see it, I should have added 'not read about
 >it'.

If you'd said that "all UFO's that appear to be a 'nut's and
bolt's' spacecraft" are claimed to be hoaxes by skeptic clubs,
you'd have been pretty close to the truth, I think. But that's a
lot different than saying they all "turn out" to be hoaxes,
since reasonable people, some with sufficient scientific
backgrounds to speak with authority, dispute these claims in
some cases.


 >At the risk of causing carpal tunnel syndrome could I ask if you
 >might do this 'on-list' since I'm sure there are others out
 >there who would also be interested.

Why don't you do a Google search for the Trindade photos or the
Trent photos? The Trent photos, among other interesting ones,
are on Bruce Maccabee's web site.

Naturally, skeptics have claimed that the Trindade and Trent
photos are hoaxes, a claim they've made for every other
photograph that clearly shows what appears to be a structured
unconventional aircraft.

The only exceptions to the seemingly reflexive assertions of
hoax are NASA photos. Obviously, no skeptic in good standing
would claim that NASA hoaxes photographs, so they have to rely
on the shuttle debris explanation for those.

I think it's actually a quite reasonable explanation for many of
the cases I'm aware of. But there is one for which I think that
explanation is not at all plausible: STS- 80. While most shuttle
'UFOs' appear to be aimlessly drifting dots, the STS-80 video
shows one object that at some points in the sequence exhibits a
definite structure, (although it's not large enough to see
exactly what its shape is). It and other objects move in a most
peculiar manner for aimlessly drifting debris - decelerating
rapidly, reversing course, and moving on converging paths. The
3-minute video can be downloaded at:

http://ufo_videos.purgatory.com/videos/sts80.mpe

It's about 7MB, so it helps if you have broad band.








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   Jun > Jun 3

                       Re: Death of Ufology - McClaren

From: Malcolm McClaren <clandestine@moonshinehollow.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 04:18:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:37:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - McClaren


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Death of Ufology
 >Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600

 >First would be the belief by the majority that Ufology
 >encompasses all areas of the paranormal. It does not. Rods, crop
 >circles, most alien abductions, spook lights, bigfoot, gnomes,
 >fairies, channeling, crystal gazing, HAARP, Chemtrails, etc. are
 >not parts of the science commonly referred to as Ufology. Any
 >attempt to associate these with Ufology is an egregous
 >intellectual error.

However, you'll find most UFO websites also report on the
paranormal and link some of the above to UFOs. Therefore, you
can't blame people for assuming that all ufologists believe the
same.

 >Secondly, science and academics have taken a hard look at the
 >data concerning the UFO issue and found it lacking scientific
 >merit. This is totally false. There has never been an applied,
 >unbiased, long-term, funded research effort regarding the hard
 >data and documentation by any area of legitimate sciences in
 >regards to the issue. The phenomenon has been declared null and
 >void erroneously. Any scientist that argues from this position
 >is literally incompetent to speak to the issue and does their
 >own science an injustice.

True, the reason being that hard lined eth believers lack
unbiased investigation and link other paranormal subjects to
ufology. Ufology has given itself a bad name and lacks
credibility.

 >Third. Earth is being visited and manipulated by aliens. There
 >is absolutely no hard evidence or data to prove this and it
 >remains only a hypothesis. However, enough hard data has been
 >accumulated to prove that the existence of unknown aerial
 >objects, of apparent manufacture, do exist and appear under
 >intelligent control within the atmospheres of the earth and
 >within near space and have been observed by competent observers.
 >To say that these objects and the intelligence behind them are
 >from inner or outer space has not been confirmed. The basic fact
 >is that nobody knows yet where these objects derive, who or what
 >is behind their manufacture and operation, nor the purpose for
 >their appearance.

Funded credible scientific research would address this matter
but as we know ufology has discredited itself therefore science
won't touch it with a barge pole.

 >Fourth, that there is a deliberate cover-up by the U.S. military
 >and government regarding UFOs, including silencing and
 >intimidation, has not been proven nor documented by hard data.
 >Documentation clearly shows that the USAF and the U.S.
 >government has a considerable track record of ineptness in
 >handling the UFO question and has failed to approach the issue
 >with proper analysis.

It's this type of talk that discredits ufology. With all the
fantasy stories banded around within ufology give one viable
reason why any government would need to silence or intimidate a
sector of the community who continually discredit themselves?

 >Fifth. The Roswell incident was the result of a Mogul balloon
 >mishap is not conclusive and the overall evidence of it being
 >such is based upon faulty reasoning and manipulation of the
 >data. Further, there is absolutely no hard documentation at this
 >time to support the recovery of either crashed UFOs or aliens.
 >However, circumstantial evidence exists in enough abundance to
 >assume that the recovery of a crashed UFO and occupant(s)
 >remains in the realm of possiblity than probability.

Continually looking to the past for answers is not going to move
ufology forward. Investigating current cases is the only way
forward.

 >Sixth is that the news media deliberately attempts to avoid
 >reporting solid observations of UFOs and UFO cases. In actuality
 >the organized news media is no longer a local and national
 >public watchdog of the people. It has become a conglomerate of
 >corporations that answers to advertisers and shareholders and is
 >therefore no longer capable of unbiased reporting.

There are many instances when the media have covered UFO
sightings in a reputable manner. Again, if ufologists continue
to make ridiculous claims without proof then the media are going
to exploit the opportunity to udermine these wild claims.

 >Seventh. Ufology has deteriorated to the level of impotence and
 >there is nothing to be learned from the study and research of
 >the field in general and earlier investigated cases. This
 >concept is ludicrous. More documentation, data and solid
 >research has been accomplished in the last decade than in the
 >prior five decades. Old case investigations are not carved in
 >stone. As new documentation and research is brought to light,
 >additions or subtractions to such cases are made and the data
 >for these cases are clarified.

Looking back at old cases it is evident that opinion plays a
huge part in interpreting the data. It is only when this
biasness is taken away that ufology can move forward.

 >These are just a few of the glaring fallacies within the field
 >of Ufology. The quagmire current Ufology finds itself is based
 >upon many issues, most of which cannot be rectified on an
 >individual basis. Rectifcation comes over a long period of time
 >through the efforts of those dedicated to the science of Ufology
 >by their research and eventual edification of the general public
 >by the method of teaching the history and research methodologies
 >and being honest with the documentation, data and hypotheses
 >presented.

What we find is uncloncluded investigations with conclusions
based on belief. Perhaps when ufologists learn to investigate
fully and only report on the facts and all the facts, not just
those that support their theory, can we begin to move forward.
This would enable us to look at the facts from a neutral stand
point rather than from two different sides.


Malcolm








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   Jun > Jun 3

                        Re: Death of Ufology - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 08:15:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 10:56:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Kaeser


 >From: Malcolm McClaren <clandestine@moonshinehollow.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 04:18:54 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Death of Ufology
 >>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600


Malcolm

I would tend to agree with most of what you've said, but believe
the credibility of ufology has been stymied by more than it's
own failings. CISCOP often shows the same tendancies of
expressing facts based on faith and belief, as oppsed to
evidence and data, so we find that both sides (in some ways)
suffer the same failings.  The sad fact is that for most people
this is a form of entertainment, and not a pursuit of scientific
truth.  For others the genre has become a ray hope for a better
future, which is similar to that of may religions.

There are those who would pursue this from a scientific
perspective, but it's difficult to gain attention when the noise
level is so high and both sides in the debate have already
convinced themselves of the "truth".

Steve









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                   Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 08:34:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 10:58:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Maccabee


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:13:33 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 10:07:02 -0400
 >>Subject: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>A point should be, made here: don't mix up serious reporting
 >>with engtertainment. It's OK for the major or minor press to
 >>present UFO related stuff, including for example sightings by
 >>>Jan 5, 2001 in Ohio>>

My error in date: should have written 2000

 >Hi, Bruce:

 >It was Illinois, January 2000, and I wonder why did the police
 >department's own website say that it was an aircraft? MIBs?

Probably use the same justification as the Air Force:

a) it was in the air
b) it was a craft

a+b  =  aircraft

(note they didn't say it was stars or planets - which, if I
recall correctly, was the CSICOP/Klass explanation.








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   Jun > Jun 3

                           Illegitimacy of CSICOP

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 11:07:54 -0400
Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP


The Illegitimacy of CSICOP:

One of the most bogus scientific organizations in existence is
the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal. Known by its acronym, CSICOP. It is not a scientific
organization, nor does it engage in accepted scientific
methodologies in its findings or claims.

Rather, it is a cult of individuals whose commonality and goal
is to use any method under a twisted guise of science to force a
belief system that science is damaged by investigation of
paranormal avenues and that people who engage in such research
are inherently dangerous to society.

Thus, CSICOP by its very nature, is a Cult that attempts to
prevent people from studying areas not approved by CSICOPs view
of what constitutes a formal scientific group. The only thing
wrong with this approach is that it borders on fanaticism and is
a danger to inherent individual freedom.

CSICOP, as a fanatical cult with a hidden agenda to prevent
acquisition of new knowledge by investigation, is provable.
Robert Shaeffer, a CSICOP Committee Member demonstrates though
his own words, that CSICOP is not a scientific organization.
That it does not engage in scientific methodologies and uses
nefarious methods in an attempt to control the public's right to
free thought and opinion. That any person who engages in
research into areas science has failed to investigate are
misguided and a danger to society and science in general.

This is Part One of the proof of CSICOPs bogus claims to be a
legitimate and scientific organization. It is presented through
Robert Shaeffer's own words, which are in direct quotes and my
comments, which follow each quoted passage:

 From the Collective Mind of the CSICOP Cult:

"Our group is not what you would call a front line organization.
We don't receive reports directly from the general public. We do
not attempt to get a specific number of cases. Because we
concentrate only on those cases that the other organizations
have put out to be unexplainable."

In other words CSICOP doesn't do first hand investigations. They
only deal in personal opinion. CSICOP proclaims to be a
scientific organization, but doesn't engage in actual science.
CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

"Because these groups will admit, ummm, the believers groups if
you will, they will admit that at least 95% of the reports that
come into their files are nonsense. But, people who cannot
identify Venus or an airplane, prank balloons and so on.

They say, however, that there is about a 5% residue of
unexplainable cases or sometimes they say 2% or 10%...always
that small residue according to the UFO believer."

In other words, anyone who engages in free thought is branded
status as a believer, with nefarious connotations attached by
CSICOP. As if a person's belief in something that does not
conform to CSICOP parameters of what is appropriate to believe,
is suspect. Which it is not, except to the fanatical CISCOP
cult. CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

"What our group does is we concentrate on that residue. We
concentrate only on the ones which supposedly been pronounced
unexplainable. For example the National Enquirer has a blue
ribbon panel of Ph.D. scientists, all of whom are active in the
UFO field that are in some sense of the word, UFO believers."

A CSICOP ploy to manipulate the truth. The existence of a 'blue
ribbon panel' is bogus. It does not exist. CSICOP consistently
uses this approach to attempt to degrade or character
assassinate anyone that disagrees with the cults position or
engages in research defaulted upon by mainstream science. CSICOP
defaults on its own legitimacy.

"And once a year they meet to choose what is considered to be
the best UFO cases of the year. These are the ones that our
group will go after, because you know, these well known people
have said it has no explanation and we find that after a much
more careful investigation, we think one which is more willing
to consider negative evidence as well as just the case for that
particular incident, that all of these instances are
explainable."

A perfect example of CSICOPs proclaimed scientific level of
competence and clarity of thought. None of these people are ever
named by the CSICOP cult because this blue ribbon panel does not
exist. CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

"As far as whether there are any genuine unexplainable
cases... obviously nobody has time to look at all the UFO reports
that have ever been made. There are just thousands of them and if
anyone says they have investigated all of them, obviously they
are way off base."

By Shaeffer's own admission the CSICOPs cult doesn't do field
investigation of cases. They only opine and call it science.
This is not a basic tenant of a legitimate scientific
organization that would consider all data, raw and formal.
CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

"But, we've looked at what has been pronounced, not by ourselves
but the UFO believers, to be the cream of the crop and we
haven't found anything in the supposed cream of the crop, that
causes us to be wrong that there is something unexplainable
here."

Notice the complete lack of data or documentation to back this
CSICOP scientific assessment? An opinion is not science, no
matter how fervently CSICOP desires it to be. CSICOP's mission
is stated to be scientific, but without scientific integrity in
their claims. CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

"Every one that we've had the opportunity and inclination to go
into, we've been able to come up with a prosaic explanation. We
are not seeing raw, unfiltered reports, we're seeing only the
ones which are supposedly unexplainable. Consequently, we are
finding a substantially higher percentage of hoaxes than you
would find in the basis of raw reports.

Based upon what data other than the opinion of the CSICOP
Committee? Again a perfect example of CSICOP's failure to use
applied scientific methodologies for their claims. CSICOP
defaults on its own legitimacy.

"I would say that probably 95% of all raw, unsorted reports are
simply authentic and honest misperceptions of an everyday
object. Possibly even more than 98% and that you'll find that
probably the largest single factor that generates UFO reports is
the planet Venus. I doubt if there is any one object that has
generated as many UFO reports as that planet has."

If CSICOP, by Shaeffer's own admission, does not investigate or
keep databases of UFO reports for analysis, then this statement
is completely erroneous and not based upon scientific
factuality. In other words, CSICOP does not have any hard data
to back up this claim. Using trumped up data, that 98% of people
are fooled by viewing the planet Venus, is highly questionable
and shows CSICOP uses the same tactics which they proclaim is
unscientific, by researchers who look at the paranormal venues.
Therefore, CSICOPs claim is bogus. Further, failure to look at
the raw data is unscientific and CSICOP defaults on its own
legitimacy.

"Other objects that will frequently give rise to UFO reports are
such things as airplanes, especially airplanes testing new
equipment or doing unusual things, advertising airplanes,
balloons. Prank balloons in some cases... you know, kids take a
bag like you get from the dry cleaner and put candles on the
bottom and the thing will rise not very high, but it will be
high enough to be spotted by many people and generally things of
that nature are misperceived. They're perceived to be much
larger than they actually are, so they'll go down as if, you
know, they were some sort unidentified craft."

In keeping with CSICOP's mission, Shaeffer fails to be honest in
that the cases they take issue with are not cases involving
pranks, advertising planes, balloons, etc., which are already
dismissed as misperceptions, etc. by the very researchers who
did the field investigations and which CSICOP takes issue. By
not being forthright, CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

"But I would say by and large, people are being quite sincere
when they say they are seeing something. But, if you separate
out all the readily identifiable ones and concentrate only on
those which are more difficult to solve and which require more
time and effort, hence the believers group do not achieve
solutions, then you'll find the percentage of hoaxes is
substantially higher. You'll find that, for example, that just
about any kid with an Instamatic camera and hubcap can produce a
UFO photograph that will be accepted by many."

CSICOP deliberately clouds the issue by attempting to put
investigators of UFO cases in with a group of researchers who
prepare UFO cases for analysis and review, with those of people
who are not investigators. A typical ploy by the CSICOP cult to
discredit, at any cost, including being honest about their own
non-existent data to back up their position that researchers in
Ufology are incapable of detecting a hoax. CSICOP defaults on
its legitimacy.

End of Part One

Copyright (c) 2002 by Wendy Connors. All Rights Reserved.








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   Jun > Jun 3

                         That Prediction Thing Again

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:58:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 11:11:22 -0400
Subject: That Prediction Thing Again


Hi all,

Thought you may (or may not) be interested but I was watching an
interview on Sky News with Uri Geller who is now co-chairman of
Exeter FC.

The interviewer was Sky's Adam Bolton.


Adam: Is it the case you already know who's going to win the
       World Cup?

Uri:  I actually do know who's going to win the World Cup.....

Adam: Go on, tell us.....

Uri:  I'm not telling.

Adam: Why can't you tell us?


Uri then diverts the interview along the Beckham foot story.

Clever guy, he knows how the trick works.

Make a vague prediction that something's going to happen within
the months of A or B and you stand a fairly good chance of at
least getting something right.

The World Cup has very specific dates, of course Mr Geller will
not commit himself to something like that.

All I ask is don't be fished in by the Kreskin trick and forget
the dates he gave.

Once his predicted dates have come and gone let's all remind him
it's time to cough up the 50K.


Dave Bowden







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                Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:49:55 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 11:14:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Hamilton


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 18:44:05 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>From:Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>I could go on here, but the real point is that we know there are
 >>problems with this but we ignore the problems. Those who had
 >>done what they claim can easily prove it and don't have to
 >>retreat into someone altered my records... or my missions were
 >>so highly classified that there is no record of them... or the
 >>government is out to discredit me. We continue to support these
 >>people, knowing of the holes, the gaps and the outright
 >>distortions, but as long as we like the message, we ignore the
 >>problem. Then when the media won't talk to us, we blame the
 >>media, rather than those who have lied their way into the
 >>spotlight, been exposed, and endorsed once again. No wonder no
 >>one listens to us. We can't even keep our own house straight.

 >I agree with you Kevin. However the media, especially the
 >television news form, has acted so irresponsible on the
 >reporting of the UFO case, especially when they keep putting on
 >people that will only say incredulous things.

 >In Phoenix, we have a local affiliate that usually puts on the
 >obviously deranged, delusional person that says the outrageous
 >things to pump up their ratings. Who cares about responsible
 >Ufology as long as the ratings go up?

<snip>

Well, Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think Phoenix
has an abnormally high number of some flakey Ufologists, at least
at the time I was there.

Even the radio show hosts are a little weird, like Erskin who is
promoting every kind of conspiracy theory you can shake a stick
at.

Motzer was another weird case. He would even alter photos or
critisize witnesses. It was a crazy scene in 1997.


-Bill Hamilton








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   Jun > Jun 3

              Re: UFO Frauds [was: Bill Uhouse... ] - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:59:20 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds [was: Bill Uhouse... ] - Hamilton


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >>Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >>Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >>he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >>(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >>with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >>evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >>found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >>time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >>cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >>someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA
 >>investigator a few years ago when Guy was flying a private plane
 >>and had to make an emergency landing on a freeway.

 >Here is the point I was trying to make. We have good evidence
 >that Mel Noel, who is also Guy Kirkwood, is not who he says he
 >is. Don Ecker did an expose of him in UFO magazine and yet, here
 >we are, suggesting that someone has tampered with his records.

My point is that you accept Don Ecker's expose. At one time
Ecker also wrote a supporting article on Bob Lazar. I am willing
to bet you would not accept the statements made in that article.

An ex-USAF officer who was a co-worker of mine and I had lunch.
His testimony, dealing with high security events in the Air
Force, was that documents do get altered or removed. That was
his opinion based on his experience. If that is so, then an
investigator's job is made more difficult and we need other
avenues of approach.

The fact is, also, I know of two witnesses who obtained (through
FOIA) the CIA reports on their reported sightings and both
complained about inaccuracies in these documents. One went about
the task of sending the CIA a list of corrections.

 >Well, I agree, but I think we know who that was. He has
 >presented a DD-214 that no one can get through public access.
 >There is no good evidence that he is who he said he is, or that
 >his stories are true. Instead we hear that someone tampered with
 >his records.

I have known Guy now since 1977 and have always heard a
consistent story from him including the photos he has shown me,
however Guy has drawbacks in that he gets involved with
"schemes" that he believes in and I don't which make him look
like a huckster and I will be the first to admit that, but I
have not yet thrown away his USAF story and see no reason to,
but admit it loses value because his records have not been
accessed by other investigators from military archives and
examined and compared to his claims.

 >As they tampered with Bob Lazar's records when no one could
 >corroborate what he said.

Not completely true as I have talked to witnesses, one who
worked on the TTR and knew Bob and knew about S4. The Tonopah
Test Range is a secure area, but not as secure as Area 51. I
have been out to this area several times mostly interviewing
witnesses of UFO sightings in that area known as the Tikaboo
Valley.

 >Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
 >story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
 >forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
 >transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
 >is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

This is something that would surely dead agent his story. There
is no excuse for forgery.

 >Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
 >record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
 >Army were in administration... which he denies.

This is another case I am not sure about.

 >Or that Don Schmitt didn't work at the Post Office and that he
 >had taken classes as several universities that had no record of
 >him.

Don has certainly done himself in doing that. However, his
presentation, at least the one I heard, did not deviate much
from the books you both co-authored. He may give other
presentations that exaggerate claims, but I have not heard them.
Your probably should be thankful that he doesn't go off the deep
end (at least not at a MUFON presentation).

Willing to listen to you and other veteran researchers, but I
have been at the UFO subject since 1953 and from 1957 - 1960
could tell you of personal experiences I have had that you would
certainly find hard to believe and I would not blame you.

Imagine that we are trying to obtain some credibility to this
subject in the midst of hoax claims and the very fantastic
nature of the phenomena itself which I have witnessed first
hand. Even though there are those on this list who think we may
all be bonkers and have no prayer of achieving credibility, we
have made an impact on the public and do have some thinking
about the possibility of extraterrestrial contact.

I, myself, am careful to keep my records straight and have never
claimed education beyond my actual achievements. I still cannot
afford a PhD, much less a few more classes to take me beyond 3
years of college. I don't know how my Dad did it when he managed
to graduate with an LLB from Yale. University courses were a lot
less expensive these days. I work at UCLA now and realize the
high cost of education.

We have an Astrobiology Society on campus and sure wish they
would be open to the UFO-alien question.


Thanks for your comments,

Bill Hamilton








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   Jun > Jun 3

                   Re: That Prediction Thing Again - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:38:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:00:59 -0400
Subject: Re: That Prediction Thing Again - Hale


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:58:20 +0100
 >Subject: That Prediction Thing Again

<snip>

 >Make a vague prediction that something's going to happen within
 >the months of A or B and you stand a fairly good chance of at
 >least getting something right.

 >Once his predicted dates have come and gone let's all remind him
 >it's time to cough up the 50K.

Dave,

Predictions are part of the old magic trick used by great
speakers who carry forward certain personal ambitions.

But, I will see if the data proves to be of any significance,
before the final nail gets driven in.

But I now predict that this is going to be one of the best
season's for it yet!


Roy








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   Jun > Jun 3

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 06-3-02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 15:46:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:02:29 -0400
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 06-3-02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

June 3, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
6.3.02


EXOBIOLOGY
The Search for Extraterrestrial Life

Odyssey's Icy Discovery Warms Up Controversial Theories
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_viking_020528.html

CI: Buried 'Grid' Resembles Terrestrial Infrastructure
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Search For Life on Europa is On Ice
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/05/28/europa.ocean.reut/index.html

European Mission Planned in Search of Earth-Like Planets
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/eddington_esa_020528.html


QUANTA
Science and Technology

Water Ice Discovery on Mars May Be 'Tip of an Iceberg'
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_ice_020528.html

Mars Express Has Sophisticated Science To Find The Water Ice On
Mars
http://sci.esa.int/content/news/index.cfm?aid=3D1&cid=3D1&oid=3D30077

CI: Oceans of Ice Found Beneath Martian Surface
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Marsquake Detection Sensors Will Take Search For Water Underground
http://www.ic.ac.uk/templates/text_3.asp?P=3D3417

Mars Discoveries Key to Future Exploration?
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/05/30/coolsc.mars.ice/index.html

Possibility of Water on Mars Spurs Talk of a Manned Visit
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0530/p02s01-ussc.html

Quantum Wormholes Could Carry People
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns99992312


BIOSPHERE
Environment

Satellites Show Alarming Retreat of Glaciers
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/glacier_retreat_020529.htm=
l


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News in the
subject line to: psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2002








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                              Fewer Abductions?

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:09:47 -0400
Subject: Fewer Abductions?


Hello All,

Have the 'Bugs' finally collected enough human DNA?

Are the "aliens" through with us?

Has 'Phase Two' of whatever the hell it is 'They' are up to been
completed/accomplished?

Speculative and admittedly frivolous questions, but important
ones nonetheless based on the following:

For seven years I have maintained a busy/popular UFO abduction
related website. (Abduction Information Center) Because of that,
my past association with Budd Hopkins and NOVA, I have always
received (unsolicited) abduction reports from people all over
the world.

During Saturday night's segment of SDI, Mark Rodeghier of CUFOS
remarked that the number of abduction reports have been down
and continuously declining over the last few years.

I agree with him.

The number of reports that I receive directly has gone from a
whopping five to fifteen reports a _day_ to maybe one or two
a week. Mind the fact that the number of daily/weekly 'hits'
to the website has steadily increased over the years. (Averaging
out at about 17,000  hits per month - according to the most
recent stats from the Virtually Strange Network Website.)

When added to the fact that my own 'public exposure' has
increased dramatically because of my involvement/regular
appearances on SDI - easier accessibility by the public - the
dramatic drop in the number of abduction reports that myself and
others are receiving becomes meaningful and possibly
significant.

Although I do not pretend to know what it all means, I do know
that it is important for others - researchers and any interested
parties - to be aware of it. Mark Rhodigier's comment was a kind
of wake-up call for me. My first reaction to hearing it was, "So
I'm not the only one!"  I have questioned a few folks and it
turns out that others who receive/collect UFO abduction reports
have also experienced a drop in the number of abduction reports
over the last few years.

So what does it all mean? Anything that follows must of
necessity be pure speculation, but we _can_ make some
intelligent guesses as to what may be happening. Maybe the
increase in information availability - thanks mainly to the
Internet - has reduced the number of misdiagnosed/miscategorized
cases. As I said, it's all guessing. I really have no idea why
the number of reports are way down. What I do know is; they
_are_ down and that that means something. Possibly something
important.

I just wanted to corroborate the statement made by Mark on SDI
that the number of abduction reports received by CUFOS has
dropped. That it is reflected in the stats of my own data
collection as well. It all 'could' mean something important.
What that meaning is, is 'una cosa' that maybe we all need to
look into and discuss among ourselves. What does this drop in
'new' abduction reports signify?


Comments/observations welcome.

Warm regards to All,

John Velez
Webmaster
Abduction Information Center








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:21:28 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Friedman


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

 >><snip>

 >>>I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >>>Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >>>Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >>>he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >>>(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >>>with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >>>evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >>>found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >>>time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >>>cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >>>someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA
 >>>investigator a few years ago when Guy was flying a private plane
 >>>and had to make an emergency landing on a freeway.

 >>Here is the point I was trying to make. We have good evidence
 >>that Mel Noel, who is also Guy Kirkwood, is not who he says he
 >>is. Don Ecker did an expose of him in UFO magazine and yet, here
 >>we are, suggesting that someone has tampered with his records.

It seems amazing that suddenly Guy Kirkwood comes up with a
DD214 even though Linda Howe gave him plenty of time to do so a
few years back after we had a big session at the Hilton Hotel in
LA with Guy.His first excuse was that it was in a box that fell
off the truck when he moved. Another extension ; no form. He
also claimed to have flown DC-8s for United, but could not
provide a copy of his card for the Airline Pilots Association
though he claimed membership.They didn't have him listed under
any of the 3 names he has used. I checked the FAA for his pilot
credentials. He was cleared for single engine aircraft. The DC8
has 4 big ones. He claimed to have graduated from Cheshire
Academy.I checked with them, he had only attended for a few
months and no graduation.There was also a letter from the Air
Force denying that anybody by any of his names had been an Air
Force pilot. His story about what happened (being threatened by
a supposed CIA agent brother of the host,Bob Dornan,) on a TV
show when he was exposed, was a flat out lie. I would suggest he
is a consumate con-man.That is a left handed compliment.

 >My point is that you accept Don Ecker's expose. At one time
 >Ecker also wrote a supporting article on Bob Lazar. I am willing
 >to bet you would not accept the statements made in that article.

 >An ex-USAF officer who was a co-worker of mine and I had lunch.
 >His testimony, dealing with high security events in the Air
 >Force, was that documents do get altered or removed. That was
 >his opinion based on his experience. If that is so, then an
 >investigator's job is made more difficult and we need other
 >avenues of approach.

 >The fact is, also, I know of two witnesses who obtained (through
 >FOIA) the CIA reports on their reported sightings and both
 >complained about inaccuracies in these documents. One went about
 >the task of sending the CIA a list of corrections.

 >>Well, I agree, but I think we know who that was. He has
 >>presented a DD-214 that no one can get through public access.
 >>There is no good evidence that he is who he said he is, or that
 >>his stories are true. Instead we hear that someone tampered with
 >>his records.

 >have known Guy now since 1977 and have always heard a
 >consistent story from him including the photos he has shown me,
 >however Guy has drawbacks in that he gets involved with
 >"schemes" that he believes in and I don't which make him look
 >like a huckster and I will be the first to admit that, but I
 >have not yet thrown away his USAF story and see no reason to,
 >but admit it loses value because his records have not been
 >accessed by other investigators from military archives and
 >examined and compared to his claims.

 >>As they tampered with Bob Lazar's records when no one could
 >>corroborate what he said.

 >Not completely true as I have talked to witnesses, one who
 >worked on the TTR and knew Bob and knew about S4. The Tonopah
 >Test Range is a secure area, but not as secure as Area 51. I
 >have been out to this area several times mostly interviewing
 >witnesses of UFO sightings in that area known as the Tikaboo
 >Valley.

 >>Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
 >>story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
 >>forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
 >>transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
 >>is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

 >This is something that would surely dead agent his story. There
 >is no excuse for forgery.

 >>Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
 >>record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
 >>Army were in administration... which he denies.

 >This is another case I am not sure about.

 >>Or that Don Schmitt didn't work at the Post Office and that he
 >>had taken classes as several universities that had no record of
 >>him.

 >Don has certainly done himself in doing that. However, his
 >presentation, at least the one I heard, did not deviate much
 >from the books you both co-authored. He may give other
 >presentations that exaggerate claims, but I have not heard them.
 >Your probably should be thankful that he doesn't go off the deep
 >end (at least not at a MUFON presentation).

 >Willing to listen to you and other veteran researchers, but I
 >have been at the UFO subject since 1953 and from 1957 - 1960
 >could tell you of personal experiences I have had that you would
 >certainly find hard to believe and I would not blame you.

 >Imagine that we are trying to obtain some credibility to this
 >subject in the midst of hoax claims and the very fantastic
 >nature of the phenomena itself which I have witnessed first
 >hand. Even though there are those on this list who think we may
 >all be bonkers and have no prayer of achieving credibility, we
 >have made an impact on the public and do have some thinking
 >about the possibility of extraterrestrial contact.

 >I, myself, am careful to keep my records straight and have never
 >claimed education beyond my actual achievements. I still cannot
 >afford a PhD, much less a few more classes to take me beyond 3
 >years of college. I don't know how my Dad did it when he managed
 >to graduate with an LLB from Yale. University courses were a lot
 >less expensive these days. I work at UCLA now and realize the
 >high cost of education.

 >We have an Astrobiology Society on campus and sure wish they
 >would be open to the UFO-alien question.

I have a piece about Bob Lazar exposing some of his falsehoods
at my website www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html  Guess I need
to add one about Mel Noel, aka Noel Bryce Cornwall, aka Guy
Kirkwood. I would agree there is a difference between publicly
accessible files and internal government documents. I think I
surprised Gene Huff, who often had fronted for Lazar, and had
approached me about standing up for Lazar, by sending him copies
of my diplomas, a long resume, list of papers, listings in
membership directories for professional groups, etc.

Stan Friedman








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:34:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:24:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Fewer Abductions?


 >Have the 'Bugs' finally collected enough human DNA?

 >Are the "aliens" through with us?

 >Has 'Phase Two' of whatever the hell it is 'They' are up to been
 >completed/accomplished?

 >Speculative and admittedly frivolous questions, but important
 >ones nonetheless based on the following:

 >For seven years I have maintained a busy/popular UFO abduction
 >related website. (Abduction Information Center) Because of that,
 >my past association with Budd Hopkins and NOVA, I have always
 >received (unsolicited) abduction reports from people all over
 >the world.

 >During Saturday night's segment of SDI, Mark Rodeghier of CUFOS
 >remarked that the number of abduction reports have been down
 >and continuously declining over the last few years.

 >I agree with him.

 >The number of reports that I receive directly has gone from a
 >whopping five to fifteen reports a _day_ to maybe one or two
 >a week. Mind the fact that the number of daily/weekly 'hits'
 >to the website has steadily increased over the years. (Averaging
 >out at about 17,000  hits per month - according to the most
 >recent stats from the Virtually Strange Network Website.)

 >When added to the fact that my own 'public exposure' has
 >increased dramatically because of my involvement/regular
 >appearances on SDI - easier accessibility by the public - the
 >dramatic drop in the number of abduction reports that myself and
 >others are receiving becomes meaningful and possibly
 >significant.

<snip>

 >I just wanted to corroborate the statement made by Mark on SDI
 >that the number of abduction reports received by CUFOS has
 >dropped. That it is reflected in the stats of my own data
 >collection as well. It all 'could' mean something important.
 >What that meaning is, is 'una cosa' that maybe we all need to
 >look into and discuss among ourselves. What does this drop in
 >'new' abduction reports signify?

 >Comments/observations welcome.


John,

Since I have been involved for more decades than I care to
admit, let me say that I have observed cycles of reporting and
non-reporting on UFOs in general, that largely depend on what is
going on at the time in regard to public acceptance, news
reporting, etc. When witnesses feel comfortable about reporting,
they report. When they don't, they don't.

When the University of Colorado announced its study, an
astounding number of "secret college" types came out of the
woodwork. When that study collapsed, everyone went underground
again. I strongly suspect that something similar is going on in
re: abductions. Why report it if you will only be exploited by
PBS, skewered by CSICOP, misrepresented or abused by people
whose interest is more economic and less than truth-seeking?

Riddle me that, Joker.

Keep up the good work, my friend.

  - Dick









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                           Re: CSICOP - Alexander

From: James Alexander <james-m-alexander@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:03:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:41:01 -0400
Subject: Re: CSICOP - Alexander


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:04:03 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

 >>From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 15:10:24 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:52:00 -0400
 >>>Subject: Graham Hancock 'Quits'?

 >>>Hancock claims there is a more sinister aspect to the criticism
 >>>against him, and that he has been subjected to a concerted
 >>>campaign by a shadowy US organisation called the Committee for
 >>>the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
 >>>(CSICOP)

 >>Whatever else you can say about CSICOP, they're not "shadowy".

 >No. But they are doctrinaire, determined to denigrate any
 >opinions that dissent from theirs, and extraordinarily ill-
 >informed about UFOs. Their self-appointed role of defending
 >"science" against "dangerous" and "anti-scientific" views is
 >almost laughably unscientific and anti-scientific.


 From the interviews of CSICOP members, most notably Phil Klass,
it seems to me a more appropriate term for them would be
"Kooks". I know many don't like the term but one, that for
CSICOP, is a moniker well-earned.








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   Jun > Jun 3

                    Re: llegitimacy of CSICOP - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:02:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:44:20 -0400
Subject: Re: llegitimacy of CSICOP - Maccabee


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: Updates < Updates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >The Illegitimacy of CSICOP:

 >One of the most bogus scientific organizations in existence is
 >the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
 >Paranormal. Known by its acronym, CSICOP. It is not a scientific
 >organization, nor does it engage in accepted scientific
 >methodologies in its findings or claims.

<snip>

 >This is Part One of the proof of CSICOPs bogus claims to be a
 >legitimate and scientific organization. It is presented through
 >Robert Shaeffer's own words, which are in direct quotes and my
 >comments, which follow each quoted passage:

 >From the Collective Mind of the CSICOP Cult:

<snip>

(Sheaffer wrote:)

 >"What our group does is we concentrate on that residue. We
 >concentrate only on the ones which supposedly been pronounced
 >unexplainable. For example the National Enquirer has a blue
r>ibbon panel of Ph.D. scientists, all of whom are active in the
 >field that are in some sense of the word, believers."

(Wendy wrote:)

 >A CSICOP ploy to manipulate the truth. The existence of a 'blue
 >ribbon panel' is bogus. It does not exist. CSICOP consistently
 >uses this approach to attempt to degrade or character
 >assassinate anyone that disagrees with the cults position or
 >engages in research defaulted upon by mainstream science. CSICOP
 >defaults on its own legitimacy.

 >"And once a year they meet to choose what is considered to be
 >the best cases of the year. These are the ones that our
 >group will go after, because you know, these well known people
 >have said it has no explanation and we find that after a much
 >more careful investigation, we think one which is more willing
 >to consider negative evidence as well as just the case for that
 >particular incident, that all of these instances are
 >explainable."

It seems to me that this must be very old writing by Sheaffer.
There was a "blue ribbon panel" of the Nat. Enq, in the 1970's.
It went out of "fashion" in the early '80's I believe, but I
don't recall when. This panel did select the best case of the
year and awarded hard $$$. Coyne and the helicopter boys of Oct.
1973 were winners. Perhaps Travis Walton was, too. Not sure on
that. That was back in the heyday of Bob Pratt's investigations
for the Enquirer.

 >"As far as whether there are any genuine unexplainable
 >cases... obviously nobody has time to look at all the reports
 >that have ever been made. There are just thousands of them and if
 >anyone says they have investigated all of them, obviously they
 >are way off base."

 >By Shaeffer's own admission the CSICOPs cult doesn't do field
 >investigation of cases. They only opine and call it science.
 >This is not a basic tenant of a legitimate scientific
 >organization that would consider all data, raw and formal.
 >CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

 >"But, we've looked at what has been pronounced, not by ourselves
 >but the believers, to be the cream of the crop and we
 >haven't found anything in the supposed cream of the crop, that
 >causes us to be wrong that there is something unexplainable
 >here."

Sheaffer says "we" and probably means himself and Klass... and
perhaps Oberg, as the squad. I don't know that anyone else in
CSICOP ever really took the time to analyze even one case. THey
haven't found anything.... means they have deluded themselves
into believing they have explained everything. <LOL>They failed
miserably on the New Zealand sightings... and groped for help
on JAL 1628, etc.

 >Notice the complete lack of data or documentation to back this
 >CSICOP scientific assessment? An opinion is not science, no
 >matter how fervently CSICOP desires it to be. CSICOP's mission
i>s stated to be scientific, but without scientific integrity in
t>heir claims. CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

 >"Every one that we've had the opportunity and inclination to go
 >into, we've been able to come up with a prosaic explanation. We
 >are not seeing raw, unfiltered reports, we're seeing only the
 >ones which are supposedly unexplainable. Consequently, we are
 >finding a substantially higher percentage of hoaxes than you
 >would find in the basis of raw reports.

Ooops. Robert ought to read 'Prosaic Explanations, the
Failure of Skepticism' at http://brumac.8k.com.









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   Jun > Jun 3

                              Lawton Triangles

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:02:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:47:13 -0400
Subject: Lawton Triangles


Wow! A Rare event!

Back in March I posted on my web site, an article about a photo
of a triangle... and something else... taken in Lawton,
Oklahoma.

In May Jim Hickman informed me of a SECOND picture, taken near
Lawton, but in May. This shows what certainly seems to be the
same thing(s)n seen from a slightly different perspective.

Anyway, visit:

http://brumac.8k.com

and scroll down the opening page a short distance to Lawton
Triangles.








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                        Re: Death of Ufology - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:17:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:52:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Hebert


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Death of Ufology
 >Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600

 >Ufology is in a state of self denial. For most intents and
 >purposes it appears to be a dead issue. Why is this? Because it
 >is practiced by few and infiltrated by the many, who fail to
 >realize the importance of the phenomena as a scientific endeavor
 >worthy of respect and appreciation for its unique nomenclature
 >of a mystery needing clear explanation.

Excellent review, Wendy! If I may, I'd like to add a few comments.

Ufology _is_ dead. It could never be called a science simply
because the lack of objectivity was always clearly stated right
there in the name of this field of study - 'UFO-logy'.

We do not study UFOs. We, as researchers and investigators, do
not have one of these objects in hand to study and analyse.
Therefore, we can only study _sighting reports_ and claimed
_images_ (photographs, videos, drawings), landing traces, etc. -
  circumstantial evidence - of these objects rather than the
actual objects themselves. (Like it or not, this is the truth of
the matter.)

Unlike other sciences that, by and large, have more direct
access to the focus of their studies, the objects we study only
exist (according to the objectivity of science) in eye witness
reports and images in photographs, videos, etc. Paleontologists
have actual fossils - in hand- they can study. Anthropologists
have artifacts and remains - in hand - they can study. Even
astronomers have their stars and planets every night - though
not in hand - that they can study.

All we have are representations of what MIGHT exist but no
actual physical evidence (or consentual scientific evidence) to
prove UFO's exist at all. (We could go on and on discussing
whether the government has crashed saucers and/or aliens,
whether photographs constitute physical evidence or not, whether
_all_ sciences are based on the study of physical evidence or
theoretical, etc., etc. but let's focus on this one aspect for a
while, please.)

How can we call ourselves "Ufologists" or name Ufology
as a science when we cannot even study the focus of our
attentions in any direct, systematic, scientific manner? And
if we claim to study UFO's, is that what we are, in fact,
actually studying? How do we know these objects are
UFO's and not IFO's or something else? How do we know
they even fit the definition of an "object"?

So you see, we doom our studies to bias from the beginning by
LABELING the field and focus of our studies with inaccurate,
unscientific and subjective nomenclature.

I use to study what I thought were UFO's. Now I study reports of
UFO's, witnesses who claim to have seen UFOs, photographs, video
images, IFOs (as they may relate to UFO sightings), man-made
technologies, psychology, and many other aspects that may relate
to the study of the variables involved.

I do not call myself a "Ufologist" because I do not study UFOs.
I research reports, images and data related to the study of
_potential_ objects of unknown origins and the study of a
larger, complex phenomenon that surrounds these reported objects
using what's called a "multidisciplinary approach".

Before I applied a multidisciplinary approach to the study of
phenomena, I BELIEVED UFOs and aliens existed. I could rant on
and on about the evidence that had convinced me that UFOs were
real and there were aliens in some of them. Afterall, I'd seen 7
UFO's myself (and they were incredible sightings).

I started out as an abductions researcher. I _believed_ people
were being abducted by beings of unknown origins (at least I
didn't call them "aliens"). Then I saw something behind my house
that forced me to stop _believing_ and start using my head and
the research skills and _objectivity_ that I had learned in
college. What I saw and one question the guy (he claimed to be
with the "OSI") asked snapped me out of that belief system. He
said, with dramatic emphasis on impression, "What do you _think_
you saw back there?"

Well, to make a long story short, I _thought_ I saw a UFO (or a
puddy-tat?).

But after I hung up the phone, I realized anything using
camouflage- as this thing was doing - is also perpetrating a
deception. From that moment on I began questioning everything
and believing... nothing. This is where Ufology ends and science
begins.

I have no need to prove UFOs or aliens exist. Since 'UFO' means
'unidentified flying object', of course they exist. Anything
that flies and is unidentified to even one person is,
theoretically, a UFO. Since 'alien' means a being that is not
human (or from over the border) and/or from another planet, it
is likely that 'aliens' exist somewhere in such a vast universe.
Research must first be oriented to discovering the nature of a
phenomenon and defining what it is or is not before it can be
proven to exist or not exist.

I not only base my research on a study of objects sighted either
on land, in the air, in space or in water that lack immediate
identification and/or explanation but also on possible
correlations between these objects and identified objects.
Before I can study an unknown, I must first find one.

Just because a flying object cannot be identified according to
current standards of what constitutes "conventional aircraft"
does not mean it cannot be man-made or attributed to other
variables. Repeatedly I have come across declarations that an
object "cannot" be man-made and is, therefore, a genuine (or
"true") UFO in dozens of cases I have reviewed (often in reports
by prominent researchers and investigators). How can one know it
is not man-made if we do not have access to all the information
about man-made or "conventional" aircraft? To rule out any
possibility is to automatically bias a study and limit analyses.

<snip>

 >Ufology, as a scientific area of study and research, fails on
 >other levels as well. It fails to evolve by the normal processes
 >as other sciences have accomplished.

Yes, Ufology, as a science, has failed (for reasons I have
stated above). However, the study of these objects and the
phenomena that surround them is evolving right before our eyes.
The very fact that we recognize the shortcomings and need for a
more scientific (albeit adapted) approach indicates change in
process. This field of study cannot evolve by the "normal
processes" accomplished by other sciences because...it has yet
to become a science and the focus of our research does not fit
the "normal" definitions inherent in other sciences.

 >Another level upon which Ufology as a science fails, is not
 >preparing its history as the foundation to prepare the birth of
 >the science for teaching it to those who would desire
 >contributing in a meaningful way, now and in the future. All
 >recognized sciences today initially began from a perceived
 >paranormal perspective, but evolved through education to the
 >level of legitimacy.

I would like to take this moment, Wendy, to express my deepest
admiration for your efforts to create an archive based on data
related to UFO phenomena. An archive containing case studies is
one of the most valuable contributions that can be made to any
field of study. You have done an outstanding job!

 >First would be the belief by the majority that Ufology
 >encompasses all areas of the paranormal. It does not. Rods, crop
 >circles, most alien abductions, spook lights, bigfoot, gnomes,
 >fairies, channeling, crystal gazing, HAARP, Chemtrails, etc. are
 >not parts of the science commonly referred to as Ufology. Any
 >attempt to associate these with Ufology is an egregous
 >intellectual error.

Exactly!

 >Secondly, science and academics have taken a hard look at the
 >data concerning the UFO issue and found it lacking scientific
 >merit. This is totally false. There has never been an applied,
 >unbiased, long-term, funded research effort regarding the hard
 >data and documentation by any area of legitimate sciences in
 >regards to the issue. The phenomenon has been declared null and
 >void erroneously. Any scientist that argues from this position
 >is literally incompetent to speak to the issue and does their
 >own science an injustice.

I couldn't agree with you more. The closest we have to a more
forensic approach comes from NIDS but this is not a recognized
field of science.

 >Third. Earth is being visited and manipulated by aliens. There
 >is absolutely no hard evidence or data to prove this and it
 >remains only a hypothesis. However, enough hard data has been
 >accumulated to prove that the existence of unknown aerial
 >objects, of apparent manufacture, do exist and appear under
 >intelligent control within the atmospheres of the earth and
 >within near space and have been observed by competent observers.
 >To say that these objects and the intelligence behind them are
 >from inner or outer space has not been confirmed. The basic fact
 >is that nobody knows yet where these objects derive, who or what
 >is behind their manufacture and operation, nor the purpose for
 >their appearance.

Amen.

 >Fourth, that there is a deliberate cover-up by the U.S. military
 >and government regarding UFOs, including silencing and
 >intimidation, has not been proven nor documented by hard data.
 >Documentation clearly shows that the USAF and the U.S.
 >government has a considerable track record of ineptness in
 >handling the UFO question and has failed to approach the issue
 >with proper analysis.

Just as conclusions about UFO's may be premature, so can the
conclusions about why the military and government respond as
they do. Reasons for their behaviors may come to light as we
continue to learn and evolve. ;>

 >Fifth. The Roswell incident was the result of a Mogul balloon
 >mishap is not conclusive and the overall evidence of it being
 >such is based upon faulty reasoning and manipulation of the
 >data. Further, there is absolutely no hard documentation at this
 >time to support the recovery of either crashed UFOs or aliens.
 >However, circumstantial evidence exists in enough abundance to
 >assume that the recovery of a crashed UFO and occupant(s)
 >remains in the realm of possiblity than probability.

Anything is possible and this case will probably never be closed
except to those with closed minds. However, do we really need to
spend quite so much time on this one case when there are so many
other cases, past and present, that may be equally important.

 >Sixth is that the news media deliberately attempts to avoid
 >reporting solid observations of UFOs and UFO cases. In actuality
 >the organized news media is no longer a local and national
 >public watchdog of the people. It has become a conglomerate of
 >corporations that answers to advertisers and shareholders and is
 >therefore no longer capable of unbiased reporting.

The media is not reliable nor much use in research. We do,
however, have a great resource for communication that is often
taken for granted...the internet. Even with all the bogus
material and hype, the internet has brought more research into
the public arena and provides an excellent tool for finding and
using information.

 >Seventh. Ufology has deteriorated to the level of impotence and
 >there is nothing to be learned from the study and research of
 >the field in general and earlier investigated cases. This
 >concept is ludicrous. More documentation, data and solid
 >research has been accomplished in the last decade than in the
 >prior five decades. Old case investigations are not carved in
 >stone. As new documentation and research is brought to light,
 >additions or subtractions to such cases are made and the data
 >for these cases are clarified.

Old cases are _not_ carved in stone. So true! My research over
the past 6 years has forced me to study old cases with new
perceptions and information and has revealed details I never
knew existed. As new information comes to light, old cases can
take on whole new meanings. When bias blinds us, we filter the
truth through tainted perceptions. One person's old clothes can
be another person's "new" clothes.

 >These are just a few of the glaring fallacies within the field
 >of Ufology. The quagmire current Ufology finds itself is based
 >upon many issues, most of which cannot be rectified on an
 >individual basis. Rectifcation comes over a long period of time
 >through the efforts of those dedicated to the science of Ufology
 >by their research and eventual edification of the general public
 >by the method of teaching the history and research methodologies
 >and being honest with the documentation, data and hypotheses
 >presented.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said, Wendy. However,
I do not see "Ufology" as a science. We need to first define
exactly what it would be if it where a science and define what
we would then do, as scientists devoted to this field of study.
We cannot study just UFO's. We must study many fields of
information in order to better understand what's going on.

Until we can define what it is we are trying to study, we cannot
declare a science. If we label them "UFO's", we commit the first
sin of bias and prejudice. And if we claim to study UFO's, we
are not using a multidisciplinary approach.

How do you define a field of study that is based on such a broad
and complex subject?

What is it we study?
Who are we?
And, what do we do?


A. Hebert







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   Jun > Jun 3

                    Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:12:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:10:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 19:26:10 -0500
 >Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:27:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>You're right Lan, I am probably mistaken but I did say in my
 >>post I'd like to see it, I should have added 'not read about
 >>it'.

 >If you'd said that "all UFO's that appear to be a 'nut's and
 >bolt's' spacecraft" are claimed to be hoaxes by skeptic clubs,
 >you'd have been pretty close to the truth, I think. But that's a
 >lot different than saying they all "turn out" to be hoaxes,
 >since reasonable people, some with sufficient scientific
 >backgrounds to speak with authority, dispute these claims in
 >some cases.

Right again Lan, perhaps I should be a little more careful with
the wording.

 >>At the risk of causing carpal tunnel syndrome could I ask if you
 >>might do this 'on-list' since I'm sure there are others out
 >>there who would also be interested.

 >Why don't you do a Google search for the Trindade photos or the
 >Trent photos? The Trent photos, among other interesting ones,
 >are on Bruce Maccabee's web site.

 >Naturally, skeptics have claimed that the Trindade and Trent
 >photos are hoaxes, a claim they've made for every other
 >photograph that clearly shows what appears to be a structured
 >unconventional aircraft.

Seen them and they are indeed interesting, but the jury's still
out on them as far as I know.

 >The only exceptions to the seemingly reflexive assertions of
 >hoax are NASA photos. Obviously, no skeptic in good standing
 >would claim that NASA hoaxes photographs, so they have to rely
 >on the shuttle debris explanation for those.

 >I think it's actually a quite reasonable explanation for many of
 >the cases I'm aware of. But there is one for which I think that
 >explanation is not at all plausible: STS- 80. While most shuttle
 >'UFOs' appear to be aimlessly drifting dots, the STS-80 video
 >shows one object that at some points in the sequence exhibits a
 >definite structure, (although it's not large enough to see
 >exactly what its shape is). It and other objects move in a most
 >peculiar manner for aimlessly drifting debris - decelerating
 >rapidly, reversing course, and moving on converging paths. The
 >3-minute video can be downloaded at:

 >http://ufo_videos.purgatory.com/videos/sts80.mpe

 >It's about 7MB, so it helps if you have broad band.

Thanks for the link but I think I've already seen this one, I'll
download it anyway just to make sure.

 From my point of view one of the most interesting pieces coming
from NASA was the now famous 'tether footage'.

It wasn't so much how the objects looked but how they acted,
like simple life forms attracted to a light source in a feeding
frenzy.

There's also the shuttle footage showing three objects hovering
above a lightning storm seemingly confirming my observation of
them being attracted to a light source.

While your point is well taken that shuttle footage is beyond
any doubt it does illustrate my point that any UFO footage I
have seen so far appears to be more organic than mechanic.

I have heard (and read) many stories of spacecraft with lights,
landing gear and sometimes even windows with the occupants
looking out. But I have yet to see footage of this.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time.


All the best,

Dave Bowden








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                      Re: Death of Ufology - Alexander

From: James Alexander <james-m-alexander@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:30:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:13:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Alexander


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 08:15:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >>From: Malcolm McClaren <clandestine@moonshinehollow.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 04:18:54 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Death of Ufology
 >>>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600

 >Malcolm

 >I would tend to agree with most of what you've said, but believe
 >the credibility of ufology has been stymied by more than it's
 >own failings. CISCOP often shows the same tendancies of
 >expressing facts based on faith and belief, as oppsed to
 >evidence and data, so we find that both sides (in some ways)
 >suffer the same failings. The sad fact is that for most people
 >this is a form of entertainment, and not a pursuit of scientific
 >truth. For others the genre has become a ray hope for a better
 >future, which is similar to that of may religions.

 >There are those who would pursue this from a scientific
 >perspective, but it's difficult to gain attention when the noise
 >level is so high and both sides in the debate have already
 >convinced themselves of the "truth".


Hi Steve, Malcom (& Everyone else)

I agree with this too. I've been noticing that the word 'Truth'
is bandied about as if it were a matter of Faith. I don't
subscribe to that idea. I regard Truth as being the same as
Fact. Those who investigate this phenomenon (Stanton Friedman,
Chris Rutkowski and so on) are ones I regard as being ones who
are more likely to come up with valid findings based on real
investigation rather than those post wild speculation (both UFO
believers and debunkers fall into this later group).

I suspect theres not going to be any easy answers for the
credibility problems. The fakes, hoaxers and skepti-cult-like
debunkers have been around for years and it will probably take
just as long to ditch the "kookery" that surrounds the UFO
subject.








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                  Re: That Prediction Thing Again - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:41:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:15:23 -0400
Subject: Re: That Prediction Thing Again - Bowden


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: That Prediction Thing Again
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:38:59 +0100

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:58:20 +0100
 >>Subject: That Prediction Thing Again

 ><snip>

 >>Make a vague prediction that something's going to happen within
 >>the months of A or B and you stand a fairly good chance of at
 >>least getting something right.

 >>Once his predicted dates have come and gone let's all remind him
 >>it's time to cough up the 50K.

 >Dave,

 >Predictions are part of the old magic trick used by great
 >speakers who carry forward certain personal ambitions.

 >But, I will see if the data proves to be of any significance,
 >before the final nail gets driven in.

 >But I now predict that this is going to be one of the best
 >season's for it yet!

Roy,

You know me, I'll keep you to that.

If there's a no show then we'll not feed you anymore ;-)

Sorry about that, private joke.

Dave








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                       Re: Fewer Abductions? - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:46:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:18:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Bueche


 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Fewer Abductions?

<snip>

 >I really have no idea why
 >the number of reports are way down. What I do know is; they
 >_are_ down and that that means something. Possibly something
 >important.

<snip>

Awareness of this came to us at Dr. Mack's organization from the
experiencers whom Dr. Mack has remained in touch with (some for
many, many years).

These personal reports of decreased contact seemed more common
than the occasional ebb that people have reported off and on in
their lives. Far more importantly, the decrease this time was
accompanied by the experiencers sensing or feeling that a large
part of the effort has concluded. I use the words "sensing or
feeling" because I do not beleive anyone put it into words
beyond that. But the feelings were strong.

On a personal note, it is potentially a little disturbing to
speculate why the 'alien presence' (using quotes to convey alien
as meaning unknown) felt it neccesary to wrap things up now;
especially given the seeming transcendence of time (in addition
to space) that may be part of the 'aliens' forte. Then again,
maybe they were able to wrap it up for a less nervousness
inducing reason: this seems to be coming after a large number
(how many? I mean only in relation to our group, not a
statistically valid sample) of women experiencers said they felt
that the hybrid project had at last been perfected, after many
problems. So perhaps that is all that needed to be accomplished:
the birth of a new race. Who knows.

It is not as if people are saying they no longer feel an
occasional connected to the beings, but it sounds more like
people are getting more telepathic information, without physical
(or without even seemingly physical) contact. And the
experiencers we have worked with, who have focused on a
spiritual orientation in their personal lives, may of course now
be receiving more general information from their own connection
to the greater cosmos rather than simply being told things
telepathically by the beings. (Man, it sickens me how much we
don't know about how telepathy and other forms of connection,
such as empathy and even feelings, work). How the information is
imparted remains a part of the mystery of humanity which I won't
debate, but in any case, some info has come in to some people
even after the visits seemed to stop. A couple who did not know
each other well were each told a little more than a year ago
that it was important to make an effort to "become stronger";
again, an implication that whoever is imparting the suggestion
has some awareness of what may be to come.

I agree that we are entering a new era. The question is, what is
to come? Something different, certainly. But what?

Some have made speculations of open contact; Whitley Strieber
called it "social contact" in a recent online editorial and he
described a potential scenario that he thought he had been told
by someone who was in his house one night (not exactly a
Communion-like experience, rather, he thought he'd gone
downstairs during the night and had a conversation with
someone.). The uncanny part of this - a part which should undue
anyone's particular sentiments regarding Strieber's honesty - is
that the same information had been received a couple months
earlier by one of our experiencers.

Will whatever came to visit simply go away having completed
whatever they may have been doing, or might they decide to be
away for so long as to become a myth? If so, what a shame, for
that would mean we really never managed to grasp what was going
on, and maybe don't deserve to know, having proven ourselves far
too capable of deluding ourselves into blindness to what we do
not wish to acknowledge. But if we have managed to figure out
even the basic framework of what has gone on in our time, then I
hope that we may have an opportunity to _know_ that our "dreams"
were the stuff reality is made of.








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 3

                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:21:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Tonnies


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >One of the most bogus scientific organizations in
 >existence is
 >the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
 >Claims of the
 >Paranormal.

<snip>

I have to agree with you, for the most part. It's indeed ironic
that an organization supposedly devoted to tearing into and
exposing cultish mentalities behaves so much like one.

I stopped reading the 'Skeptical Inquirer' after encountering an
article that attempted to bolster the Air Force's "balloon
dummy" theory by using words from none other than Gerald
Anderson! The author obviously knew that Anderson was
"questionable" at best, but this didn't stop him from using his
(carefully selected) quotes to bolster the AF's conclusion.

CSICOP generally never fails to annoy me with its vitriolic
attacks and selective commentary. Can't "debunk" the Face on
Mars? Ten root in the dumpster for nasty things to say about
Richard Hoagland and hope the readership is too ignorant to know
that the Face and Mr. Hoagland are two entirely seperate
subjects.


Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                          Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:03:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:03:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:20 -0300

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

<snip>

 >>>>I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >>>>Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >>>>Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >>>>he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >>>>(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >>>>with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >>>>evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >>>>found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >>>>time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >>>>cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >>>>someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA

Ok, What unit, regular, air guard, and for how long? Irritates
me with these weasels who claim military service, It is easy to
check them out (If you know what you are doing). Like what model
of F-86? How do you start it? what was the armament? (this one
separates the A's (machine guns, 50cal. to be exact) from the
D's (Rockets)..or the all flying tail what do you know about
that?

<snip>

 >It seems amazing that suddenly Guy Kirkwood comes up with a
 >DD214 even though Linda Howe gave him plenty of time to do so a
 >few years back after we had a big session at the Hilton Hotel in
 >LA with Guy.His first excuse was that it was in a box that fell
 >off the truck when he moved. Another extension ; no form. He
 >also claimed to have flown DC-8s for United, but could not
 >provide a copy of his card for the Airline Pilots Association
 >though he claimed membership.They didn't have him listed under
 >any of the 3 names he has used. I checked the FAA for his pilot
 >credentials. He was cleared for single engine aircraft. The DC8
 >has 4 big ones. He claimed to have graduated from Cheshire
 >Academy.I checked with them, he had only attended for a few
 >months and no graduation.There was also a letter from the Air
 >Force denying that anybody by any of his names had been an Air
 >Force pilot. His story about what happened (being threatened by
 >a supposed CIA agent brother of the host,Bob Dornan,) on a TV
 >show when he was exposed, was a flat out lie. I would suggest he
 >is a consumate con-man.That is a left handed compliment.

Ask any DC8 driver: What are the "suitcase handles" the real
ones will tell you exactly what they are and the reason for
them. Kind of like how you can tell if someone ever flew B-17's,
ask the how they got in. Better yet - if they are capable and a
B-17 is handy, have them demonstrate - another thing is the way
a DC8 deploys the spoliers on landing.

 >>My point is that you accept Don Ecker's expose. At one time
 >>Ecker also wrote a supporting article on Bob Lazar. I am willing
 >>to bet you would not accept the statements made in that article.

 >>An ex-USAF officer who was a co-worker of mine and I had lunch.
 >>His testimony, dealing with high security events in the Air
 >>Force, was that documents do get altered or removed. That was
 >>his opinion based on his experience. If that is so, then an
 >>investigator's job is made more difficult and we need other
 >>avenues of approach.

 >>The fact is, also, I know of two witnesses who obtained (through
 >>FOIA) the CIA reports on their reported sightings and both
 >>complained about inaccuracies in these documents. One went about
 >>the task of sending the CIA a list of corrections.

 >>>Well, I agree, but I think we know who that was. He has
 >>>presented a DD-214 that no one can get through public access.
 >>>There is no good evidence that he is who he said he is, or that
 >>>his stories are true. Instead we hear that someone tampered with
 >>>his records.

 >>have known Guy now since 1977 and have always heard a
 >>consistent story from him including the photos he has shown me,
 >>however Guy has drawbacks in that he gets involved with
 >>"schemes" that he believes in and I don't which make him look
 >>like a huckster and I will be the first to admit that, but I
 >>have not yet thrown away his USAF story and see no reason to,
 >>but admit it loses value because his records have not been
 >>accessed by other investigators from military archives and
 >>examined and compared to his claims.

Here is my somewhat paranoid take: what if Guy (and Lazar) are
ah, disinformation specialists? To confuse the issue with a
murky trail and unbelievabilty.

 >>>As they tampered with Bob Lazar's records when no one could
 >>>corroborate what he said.

 >>Not completely true as I have talked to witnesses, one who
 >>worked on the TTR and knew Bob and knew about S4. The Tonopah
 >>Test Range is a secure area, but not as secure as Area 51. I
 >>have been out to this area several times mostly interviewing
 >>witnesses of UFO sightings in that area known as the Tikaboo
 >>Valley.

 >>>Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
 >>>story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
 >>>forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
 >>>transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
 >>>is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

Know a few Seals, they will 'out' a fake, if they get him. Not
pleasantly, either.

 >>This is something that would surely dead agent his story. There
 >>is no excuse for forgery.

 >>>Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
 >>>record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
 >>>Army were in administration... which he denies.

There is a clown if there ever was one, wasn't he the one who
claimed to be either a Ranger or Green Beret who shot down or
retrieved a crashed saucer in Vietnam? Names of members in his
unit, or the unit itself. Where and when? Curiously, these folks
usually never surface.

<snip>

 >>Willing to listen to you and other veteran researchers, but I
 >>have been at the UFO subject since 1953 and from 1957 - 1960
 >>could tell you of personal experiences I have had that you would
 >>certainly find hard to believe and I would not blame you.

 >>Imagine that we are trying to obtain some credibility to this
 >>subject in the midst of hoax claims and the very fantastic
 >>nature of the phenomena itself which I have witnessed first
 >>hand. Even though there are those on this list who think we may
 >>all be bonkers and have no prayer of achieving credibility, we
 >>have made an impact on the public and do have some thinking
 >>about the possibility of extraterrestrial contact.

Bill, there are the sceptical on this List that could be gummed
on the knee by a Grey and debunk the event as an over aggressive
Mexican Hairless.

 >>I, myself, am careful to keep my records straight and have never
 >>claimed education beyond my actual achievements. I still cannot
 >>afford a PhD, much less a few more classes to take me beyond 3
 >>years of college. I don't know how my Dad did it when he managed
 >>to graduate with an LLB from Yale. University courses were a lot
 >>less expensive these days. I work at UCLA now and realize the
 >>high cost of education.

 >>We have an Astrobiology Society on campus and sure wish they
 >>would be open to the UFO-alien question.

Not as long as reason prevails. Astrobiology is slime and lichen
on a rock, on the wall, of Vallis Marineris not the Kilngon
Battle fleet that just blocked out the light of the full Moon.
The idea of UFOs and Aliens is anethema, heresy, to the dogma
of Reason.

 >I have a piece about Bob Lazar exposing some of his falsehoods
 >at my website www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html  Guess I need
 >to add one about Mel Noel, aka Noel Bryce Cornwall, aka Guy
 >Kirkwood. I would agree there is a difference between publicly
 >accessible files and internal government documents. I think I
 >surprised Gene Huff, who often had fronted for Lazar, and had
 >approached me about standing up for Lazar, by sending him copies
 >of my diplomas, a long resume, list of papers, listings in
 >membership directories for professional groups, etc.

You all are the good guys, and even if there are differences of
opinion, you are able to at least question the messengers of
fakery. I am just amazed at the Cajones of the folks who try
this sort of thing. To my own rather limited knowlege of the
matters of UFOs, the necessity of calling fakes is paramount.
The 'bunkers are indeed the ones who are living in dream world.
Reality is completely different for those of us who have
experienced something that can't be a 'Klassified' object.


Thanks,

GT McCoy







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 04:51:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:15:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:46:45 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Fewer Abductions?

 ><snip>

 >>I really have no idea why
 >>the number of reports is way down. What I do know is; they
 >>_are_ down and that that means something. Possibly something
 >>important.

 ><snip>

Hello Will,

You wrote:

 >Awareness of this came to us at Dr. Mack's organization from the
 >experiencers whom Dr. Mack has remained in touch with (some for
 >many, many years).

Interesting but not surprising that it should come from the
experiencers first. In my own life I have not had any
'interactions' for quite some time now. Even the frequency of
'sightings has dwindled down to near nothing. And that after an
extended period of high activity/frequency. Among the members of
the AIC group there are only one or two "frequent fliers" left
who still report any 'current' activity. Seems that thankfully
all is 'quiet on the Western Front' for many experiencers these
days.

(*For those who may not know 'who' Will Bueche is; he is the
former webmaster for John Mack's PEER website. When I ran Budd's
Intruders Foundation website we were 'counterparts' to each
other and I have communicated with him on and off for many
years. In spite of some purely philosophical differences, I like
and respect Will very much.)

 >These personal reports of decreased contact seemed more common
 >than the occasional ebb that people have reported off and on in
 >their lives. Far more importantly, the decrease this time was
 >accompanied by the experiencers sensing or feeling that a large
 >part of the effort has concluded. I use the words "sensing or
 >feeling" because I do not beleive anyone put it into words
 >beyond that. But the feelings were strong.

I have heard those same thoughts/feelings being expressed by
others too. Although it is tough to properly 'weight' such
information. I have a tendency put stuff like that on a back-
burner until some corroboration comes along. That is what
motivated the post in the first place. With your exposure to,
and experience at PEER, your observations and comments have
genuine value here in this discussion. That makes three major
(abduction) data gathering venues that we have heard from.
(CUFOS, PEER, AIC/'old' Intruders Foundation.)

*It would be nice to hear from whoever is running the current
incarnation of the IF website. I would be curious to know if
they too have noticed a significant drop in 'new' reports. And
although he never participates, I know that David Jacobs reads
this List. I'd love to hear from him on this issue.

I'm going to e-mail Debbie (Jordan) Kauble shortly and inquire
if the same thing is happening over at her busy/popular
abduction related website. I'll let you know what she says via
this List/thread if I can get a 'timely' response from her.

 >On a personal note, it is potentially a little disturbing to
 >speculate why the 'alien presence' (using quotes to convey alien
 >as meaning unknown) felt it neccesary to wrap things up now;

Which is why - other than using it as a 'hook' at the opening of
the post - I refrained from doing so. I was careful to qualify/
categorize such a discussion as pure speculation.

BTW, I always wrap quotes around the word 'alien' myself and for
the same reason. :)  Keeping an open mind free of dogma is a
full-time job.

 >Then again,
 >maybe they were able to wrap it up for a less nervousness
 >inducing reason: this seems to be coming after a large number
 >(how many? I mean only in relation to our group, not a
 >statistically valid sample) of women experiencers said they felt
 >that the hybrid project had at last been perfected, after many
 >problems. So perhaps that is all that needed to be accomplished:
 >the birth of a new race. Who knows.

Who knows indeed. But all possibilities should be considered.
Even if only as a part of a process of speculative extrapolation
that is based on existing data/theories. Mack, Hopkins, Jacobs
et al all do just that every time they publish a new book on the
subject. No harm in indulging in a bit of it ourselves from time
to time. We may be mere 'front-line' grunts but based on our own
years of dedicated hard work, our bleats have some value as
well.

 >(Man, it sickens me how much we
 >don't know about how telepathy and other forms of connection,
 >such as empathy and even feelings, work).

Double-edged sword. There _are_ legitimate privacy issues
involved. But I suspect that most people are simply scared to
death of that kind/level of intimacy Will.

It means (literally) opening up the contents of their minds
(soul) to the scrutiny of another. Many dread the mere thought
of standing mentally naked for fear of having all their little
secrets exposed. Those of us who do not keep 'secrets' or lead
'double lives' have no fear of such exposure. I figure we are a
part of a very small minority that would actually welcome such a
state of affairs.

 >I agree that we are entering a new era. The question is, what is
 >to come? Something different, certainly. But what?
 >Some have made speculations of open contact; Whitley Strieber
 >called it "social contact" in a recent online editorial and he
 >described a potential scenario that he thought he had been told
 >by someone who was in his house one night (not exactly a
 >Communion-like experience, rather, he thought he'd gone
 >downstairs during the night and had a conversation with
 >someone.). The uncanny part of this - a part which should undue
 >anyone's particular sentiments regarding Strieber's honesty - is
 >that the same information had been received a couple months
 >earlier by one of our experiencers.

I don't give _any_ 'channeled' information two cents worth of
credence, but it is interesting and thought-provoking
information nonetheless. Food for thought.

 >Will whatever came to visit simply go away having completed
 >whatever they may have been doing, or might they decide to be
 >away for so long as to become a myth? If so, what a shame, for
 >that would mean we really never managed to grasp what was going
 >on, and maybe don't deserve to know, having proven ourselves far
 >too capable of deluding ourselves into blindness to what we do
 >not wish to acknowledge. But if we have managed to figure out
 >even the basic framework of what has gone on in our time, then I
 >hope that we may have an opportunity to _know_ that our "dreams"
 >were the stuff reality is made of.

It would be a shame, and IMHO it is a grave injustice every time
an experiencer/abductee goes to the grave without ever knowing
the 'why' of it all. I'd like some *answers _before_ I depart
this mortal coil.

*Although I sometimes fear that 'maybe' we are better off not
knowing.


Warm regards,

John Velez








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 04:35:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:18:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:34:13 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Fewer Abductions?

 >>Have the 'Bugs' finally collected enough human DNA?

 >>Are the "aliens" through with us?

 >>Has 'Phase Two' of whatever the hell it is 'They' are up to been
 >>completed/accomplished?

 >>Speculative and admittedly frivolous questions, but important
 >>ones nonetheless based on the following:

 >>For seven years I have maintained a busy/popular UFO abduction
 >>related website. (Abduction Information Center) Because of that,
 >>my past association with Budd Hopkins and NOVA, I have always
 >>received (unsolicited) abduction reports from people all over
 >>the world.

 >>During Saturday night's segment of SDI, Mark Rodeghier of CUFOS
 >>remarked that the number of abduction reports have been down
 >>and continuously declining over the last few years.

 >>I agree with him.

 >>The number of reports that I receive directly has gone from a
 >>whopping five to fifteen reports a _day_ to maybe one or two
 >>a week. Mind the fact that the number of daily/weekly 'hits'
 >>to the website has steadily increased over the years. (Averaging
 >>out at about 17,000  hits per month - according to the most
 >>recent stats from the Virtually Strange Network Website.)

 >>When added to the fact that my own 'public exposure' has
 >>increased dramatically because of my involvement/regular
 >>appearances on SDI - easier accessibility by the public - the
 >>dramatic drop in the number of abduction reports that myself and
 >>others are receiving becomes meaningful and possibly
 >>significant.

 ><snip>

 >>I just wanted to corroborate the statement made by Mark on SDI
 >>that the number of abduction reports received by CUFOS has
 >>dropped. That it is reflected in the stats of my own data
 >>collection as well. It all 'could' mean something important.
 >>What that meaning is, is 'una cosa' that maybe we all need to
 >>look into and discuss among ourselves. What does this drop in
 >>'new' abduction reports signify?

 >>Comments/observations welcome.

Hello Dick,

You wrote:

 >Since I have been involved for more decades than I care to
 >admit, let me say that I have observed cycles of reporting and
 >non-reporting on UFOs in general, that largely depend on what is
 >going on at the time in regard to public acceptance, news
 >reporting, etc. When witnesses feel comfortable about reporting,
 >they report. When they don't, they don't.

Your 50+ years of involvement in UFO research has allowed you to
perceive 'cycles' that many others are unaware of. It is just
one of the reasons why you are such a valuable asset to have
available on the List. Your feedback is _always_ appreciated. :)

Sidebar:

I chuckle when I see posts that make the same suggestions for
forming a 'central committee or board' for ufology(ists,) as if
the idea had never been mentioned before. I don't consider
myself a "researcher" so I usually just read your proposals as
opposed to responding to them. But I am surprised at the lack of
response from others. (Researchers, your peers, that participate
on this List) Apathy and a lack of response from both sides of
the Atlantic. The silence at times can be deafening.

I suppose that actually "doing something" as opposed to gumming
it to death, smacks of too much effort for some folks.  ;)

But please, by all means, keep plugging away. The suggestions
you have made (if implemented) would gain 'ufology' some of the
stability and credibility it so badly needs - and deserves.

 >When the University of Colorado announced its study, an
 >astounding number of "secret college" types came out of the
 >woodwork. When that study collapsed, everyone went underground
 >again. I strongly suspect that something similar is going on in
 >re: abductions. Why report it if you will only be exploited by
 >PBS, skewered by CSICOP, misrepresented or abused by people
 >whose interest is more economic and less than truth-seeking?

Why indeed! But as I have stated before; I have sat across the
table from Joe Nickel and others of his stripe and I have always
found them to be 'easy meat' in an open debate situation. Their
position on so many things is untenable and downright
indefensible. It doesn't take much to topple their 'Castles Made
of Sand'. :)

Re: the media... I'm careful...

re: abusers... I have learned to ignore them. In some cases to
feel sorry for them. Although I must admit that until I
developed a callous, it did hurt. And as any guitar player will
tell you, a callous doesn't develop overnight.  ;)

 >Riddle me that, Joker.

Dick the only thing I'd like to 'riddle' is the winner(s) of the
first two races at Belmont Park tomorrow. Any psychics out
there?

 >Keep up the good work, my friend.

I always give it my 'best.'

BTW, I have learned a _ton_ by studying your latest book. Thank
you for all the effort that had to go into producing such a
richly detailed and informative work. I highly recommend that
those who have not yet secured a copy do so asap. It is one of
those 'necessary' books to have in your library. Besides being
an engrossing and entertaining read, it doubles as an excellent
reference book for a _large_ number of cases. At 700 plus pages
it is an 'all the UFOs you can eat' buffet for any serious
student of the subject.

Warmest regards,

John Velez








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                           Re: UFO Frauds - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:17:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:20:12 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>>I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >>>Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >>>Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >>>he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >>>(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >>>with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >>>evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >>>found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >>>time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >>>cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >>>someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA
 >>>investigator a few years ago when Guy was flying a private plane
 >>>and had to make an emergency landing on a freeway.

 >>Here is the point I was trying to make. We have good evidence
 >>that Mel Noel, who is also Guy Kirkwood, is not who he says he
 >>is. Don Ecker did an expose of him in UFO magazine and yet, here
 >>we are, suggesting that someone has tampered with his records.

 >My point is that you accept Don Ecker's expose. At one time
 >Ecker also wrote a supporting article on Bob Lazar. I am willing
 >to bet you would not accept the statements made in that article.
Bill, List, All -

My point is that you suggested I agreed with Stan Friedman, and
I pointed out that Ecker had come to the same conclusion. My
point is that no reliable corroboration for these stories has
been offered and no independent documentation is available.
These seem to me to be good reasons to doubt the authenticity of
Mel Noel.

And it is only in Ufology that no one is allowed to alter an
opinion based on more and better information. I accepted MJ-12
based on something that Warren Smith told me that, if true,
would have tended to validate MJ-12 through an independent
source. That independent corroboration never materialized and I
have since learned that Smith made up material he put into his
articles and his books.

So, the ball is now in Noel's (Kirkwood's) court to prove he was
somehow involved in what he claims. At the moment, the independent
documentation and evidence do not support him.

(I will note here that had these questions not arisen and had
Noel's credentials checked out, the ball would be in the court
of those suggesting he is not who he says he is. Since the
attempts to confirm his tales have failed, the burden shifts
back to him.)

 >An ex-USAF officer who was a co-worker of mine and I had lunch.
 >His testimony, dealing with high security events in the Air
 >Force, was that documents do get altered or removed. That was
 >his opinion based on his experience. If that is so, then an
 >investigator's job is made more difficult and we need other
 >avenues of approach.

No one has denied that some documents get altered, some get
shredded, and some just disappear. The point is that it is
impossible to hide all the traces of these activities, yet the
government, according to these sources is able to do it. Hell,
they can even recover all copies of a daily newspaper to
suppress a UFO story.

 >The fact is, also, I know of two witnesses who obtained (through
 >FOIA) the CIA reports on their reported sightings and both
 >complained about inaccuracies in these documents. One went about
 >the task of sending the CIA a list of corrections.

Mistakes in documents are not the same as a cover-up. Go through
the Project Blue Book files and see all the mistakes in there.
My favorite (at the moment) is their attempt to remove all
traces of Ken Arnold's name in the file, blacking out even his
initials in the transcript of a telephone conversation... but
someone had written, in big, black grease pencil across top of
the transcript "ARNOLD CASE."

Or carefully removing everyone's name from a case file but
leaving the news clippings unaltered so that we can figure out
who all the witnesses are.

 >>Well, I agree, but I think we know who that was. He has
 >>presented a DD-214 that no one can get through public access.
 >>There is no good evidence that he is who he said he is, or that
 >>his stories are true. Instead we hear that someone tampered with
 >>his records.

 >I have known Guy now since 1977 and have always heard a
 >consistent story from him including the photos he has shown me,
 >however Guy has drawbacks in that he gets involved with
 >"schemes" that he believes in and I don't which make him look
 >like a huckster and I will be the first to admit that, but I
 >have not yet thrown away his USAF story and see no reason to,
 >but admit it loses value because his records have not been
 >accessed by other investigators from military archives and
 >examined and compared to his claims.

Then we basically agree... investigation should continue but the
report suffers from a lack of independent verification.

 >>As they tampered with Bob Lazar's records when no one could
 >>corroborate what he said.

 >Not completely true as I have talked to witnesses, one who
 >worked on the TTR and knew Bob and knew about S4. The Tonopah
 >Test Range is a secure area, but not as secure as Area 51. I
 >have been out to this area several times mostly interviewing
 >witnesses of UFO sightings in that area known as the Tikaboo
 >Valley.

Yes, yes, and I talked to guy who worked with Lazar and said he
was just a technician... besides, you're forgetting that his
claimed college education is, well, imaginary.

 >>Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
 >>story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
 >>forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
 >>transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
 >>is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

 >This is something that would surely dead agent his story. There
 >is no excuse for forgery.

Or for lying about a case and inventing information.

I once showed all the evidence to a fellow at a MUFON
conference, so that he would know that we had Anderson dead to
rights on one of the forged documents and he wanted to know how
I knew that the government hadn't intercepted Anderson's phone
bill and then altered it to make Anderson look bad. There comes
a point when we must realize that the government just isn't that
good.

 >>Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
 >>record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
 >>Army were in administration... which he denies.

 >This is another case I am not sure about.

Just read the article he published in UFO magazine a number of
years ago about how he would sneak off the base at night to
"hunt" the bad guys.

Or remember that he tried to convince me that he was really an
officer, I suppose, undercover.

Or that he believed Larry Warren because he had read the
Bentwaters file.(Had he actually read it, then he would have
known that Warren wasn't physically present for the two nights
of activity because he was, in fact, in Germany.)

Or that he went out to his car one night and retrieved a top
secret file that he carried through the house to impress us all.
Well, if he was leaving top secret material in his car, then he
was going to jail.

 >>Or that Don Schmitt didn't work at the Post Office and that he
 >>had taken classes as several universities that had no record of
 >>him.

 >Don has certainly done himself in doing that. However, his
 >presentation, at least the one I heard, did not deviate much
 >from the books you both co-authored. He may give other
 >presentations that exaggerate claims, but I have not heard them.
 >Your probably should be thankful that he doesn't go off the deep
 >end (at least not at a MUFON presentation).

Why should I be thankful? Shouldn't we all be thankful? I mean,
you can't read an "anti-Roswell" book without tripping over the
lies told by Don Schmitt.

Ask him why he was telling people I was a government agent, and
when he denies he ever said that, I'll tell you which of his
friends heard him say it.

<snip>

 >We have an Astrobiology Society on campus and sure wish they
 >would be open to the UFO-alien question.

But they never will as long as we keep following these strange
tales that have no corroboration and listening to people who
have been exposed time and again. Next thing you know, I'm going
to hear that we can trust Carlos Allende and that the Stardust
disappeared into the Bermuda Triangle after sending "STENDEC"
three times.

KRandle







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:56:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:23:14 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:22:34 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 00:40:47 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>I can understand your beef on this, but here's a thought, surely
 >>>in the light of 9/11 a UFO seen over New York or Washington for
 >>>instance would be of some media interest, judging by the
 >>>heightened security.

 >>>UFO items are not old news, just not happening news.

 >>You know something? If asked informally and away from
 >>the office, I'll bet 100% of media people who have rejected
 >>UFO stories know quite well UFOs _are_ happening, but
 >>are afraid to print any specific case because of fear the one
 >>they would choose would turn out to be a hoax.

 >Unless I'm mistaken all UFO's that appear to be a 'nut's and
 >bolt's' spacecraft turn out to be hoaxes.
 >If you can offer video or film evidence on the contrary I'd like
 >to see it.

 >>Perhaps a screening committee approach would help the media exec
 >>have the confidence to print/air such a story?

 >Confidence requires evidence, they don't have the confidence
 >therefore.....

To your above two remarks, you are ignoring witnesses,
especially the multiple witness sightings and the radar-
  confirmed sightings. Witnesses count in court, so why are you
discounting them?

Simple reporting of multi-witness sightings and radar
confirmation sightings, without claiming proof, but done
_frequently_ enough so the non-UFO-researching public will
finally get the point that this is not a phenomenon that
happened long ago and far away, and _not_ combined with a
debunker statement, would serve as _evidence_.

Not proof, but evidence.

What's the harm in reporting every multi-witness and/or radar-
confirmed sighting for one year, without a follow on by a
debunker and let the _public_ decide if this is evidence or not?

<snip>

 >>Doesn't have to be that way, but both UFO researchers and the
 >>media need to grasp how effective _regular_, quality assured,
 >>not splashy and not long, media items can be in motivating the
 >>public. If this is done, there will be the necessary public
 >>interest to press government to disclose what they know on
 >>UFOs.

 >You mean something along the lines of:

 >"Dear Government,

 >Could you please tell us what these little blobs are we keep
 >seeing in our skies?

 >We haven't got a clue what they are but there's an awful lot of
 >speculation going around.

 >Any information would be greatly appreciated."

No. That would be silly. I'm recommending what I proposed
above - _regular_, no-debunker-follow-on, brief, airings of
all multi-witness and/or radar confirmed sightings, and letting
the public digest the information.

An individual writing such a letter would be ignored, but when
regular airings of the better sightings provoke a steady stream
of inquiries, government might be more likely to open up.

Until regular, no-debunker-follow-on stories are provided to the
public over time, then the media can't claim to have tried this
and found it not to work.

The problem is that media doesn't want to roll up their sleeves
and try the long, arduous way. But most good things in life come
about by plodding, patient, incremental effort.

 >>There is no reason to hide UFO information, is there?

 >Do you know the term knowledge is power?

 >Have you ever considered that maybe the Government don't
 >actually know what these things are?

No chance. They know at least as much as the massive amount of
civilian researchers know. They make up silly stories to cover
Roswell.

 >For them to admit that would deminish them in some way.

 >All the time you keep putting them on the pedistal of all
 >knowledge they will always hold power over you.

It is terribly naive, given the history of government secrecy,
even on proven-in-court matters like justice for MKULTRA
survivors, or plainly observed matters like chemtrails, to even
guess that they are not witholding information.

Local Oklahoma City TV, right after the federal building blast,
showed local officials saying they found two unexploded bombs
planted inside the building, on CNN. That never made it to
McVeigh's trial. Just one example. (I have that video clip.)

When Nick Balaskas tells us he found evidence in Ottawa that
both US and Canadian brass made alien contact in the mid-1950s,
do you just brush that off as nonsense?

Why isn't Nick's find worth media attention, for example?

 >>Slow and steady gets the job done.

 >Small moves Ellie, small moves. ;-)

That is exactly my point - small moves are more likely to add up
to success than pining away hoping for a major event to occur.


Eleanor White









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                      Re: Fewer Abductions? - van Hyum

From: Peter van Hyum <pvanhyum@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:00:52 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:24:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - van Hyum


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >Subject: Fewer Abductions?


<snip>

 >I just wanted to corroborate the statement made by Mark on SDI
 >that the number of abduction reports received by CUFOS has
 >dropped. That it is reflected in the stats of my own data
 >collection as well. It all 'could' mean something important.
 >What that meaning is, is 'una cosa' that maybe we all need to
 >look into and discuss among ourselves. What does this drop in
 >'new' abduction reports signify?


 >Comments/observations welcome.


Hi John, List

The research and experimentation phase is over. Next is a
decision phase.

After that comes implementation.


Regards

Peter








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

               Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:11:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:30:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud -


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud
 >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 16:23:52 -0500

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud
 >>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:33:19 -0500

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Possible Action Pending In Reed UFO Fraud
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 08:38:28 -0500

 >>>The Reed hoax probably wouldn't have gained any attention if it
 >>>hadn't been for those who promoted him on national radio, at
 >>>conferences, etc. Reed was not the only one to benefit from his
 >>>hoax.

 >>>Boycott the enablers.

 >>I won't defend a co-conspirator, of course, but the ability to
 >>parse the enabler from the co-conspirator can be difficult to
 >>do.

 >Alfred, there is a difference between responsible reporting and
 >yellow journalism.

...no argument here. Still, someone's going to make a subjective
call on where the border is.

 >For example, which do you think is more
 >responsible for delivering factual information (or something
 >close to the truth) - CNN or Jerry Springer? Time Magazine or
 >The National Enquirer? Which would you use in objective
 >research? Which would you want the public to buy?

The assumption here is that "factual" information is coming from
_anywhere_, is 'somewhere' not homogenized or processed, or can
be readily detected at some point where it is not filtered in
any way... which is a big, and likely invalid, assumption.
Consider that Jerry Spinger (a _whole_ lot more honest about
what _he's_ doing) shows more true cultural warts on our society
than CNN does, and that many times even the Enquirer will break
a true story that Time/Warner avoids like a journalistic plague.

I know where the smart money would put an answer to your
questions, but that investment seems to lose more value with the
passing of each accelerating day. I want to believe in the
mainstream, I want to be able to presume that it is candid and
forthcoming, but it is none of those things, and has likely
never _been_ any of those things. The only difference lately is
an untamed communication that we can have via the internet where
the unfiltered and raw is possible, even _if_ bogus. We're
_used_ to bogus. We've lived with bogus all our lives. I'll
prefer the unfiltered. ...More vitamins and minerals.

 >>EBK (myself or even you) can be taken in by hoaxer just as
 >>easily as the other hoaxed and earn, for their trouble,
 >>innocence and journalistic bravery, your boycott?

 >Yes, any of us can be taken in by a hoaxer but we can lessen
 >those mistakes by carefully investigating and researching the
 >claimant _before_ putting them on the air.

I'm an honorable guy (make the assumption for argument [g].). If
I had Bell's, Rense's or B-K's show, and a guy called in to say
that he has evidence (I can preview) of something 'peculiar'...
I'm going to put him on the air - regardless. Let the evidence
sink or float on it's own. I would be the facilitator, the
mechanism for the _beginning_ of the investigation and research
you call for. I would broach the subject. Without _me_, (Jeff,
Errol, or even Art), the subject is not even raised. Moreover -
  a facilitator (or enabler) is going to have the resources to
investigate one or broach many, and it is the job of the
facilitator to "broach". Consider that Art Bell gave Reed enough
air time to hang himself, not to defend Bell (who I don't
consider nearly as responsible as Jeff or Errol), but just to
point out that it was Bell that pointed Reed out to Myers...

 >It's one thing to
 >allow just anyone to appear on a show (at a conference, etc.)
 >and another thing to actively screen prospective guests. (I have
 >no idea what EBK does on his show as I have never tuned in.)

Well -- Errol tries to be VERY circumspect, I think, but if
someone is willing to stand up with a ufological feather
protruding from an otherwise credible pore, I think he'd have
the courage to give that person a higher place to stand to tell
her story.

 >>Then we get
 >>_no_ unfiltered information. The "enabler" has a bigger voice
 >>and a wider reach and is, many times, the only reason we get the
 >>information we get, at all.

 >And it is _because_ the program hosts (producers and directors)

Maybe these guys should have vast staffs of producers and
directors, but they don't. Bell allegedly does it on his own,
I'm reasonably certain that Rense has only one or two volunteer
or near volunteer associates to assist him in 'his' effort, and
I know that EBK is overworked, underpaid, and generally as busy
as the proverbial armless paper hanger. More 'reach',
unfortunately, does not mean more 'grasp' which is what you seem
to apply here.

 >have a bigger voice and wider reach that they have a greater
 >responsibility to seek quality over quantity in the guests they
 >share with the public. I realize it's hard to find high quality,
 >honest guests week after week especially when it comes to the
 >study of phenomena but I'd rather have all music than listen to
 >some lunatic spread all kinds of BS to the world through
 >national and international radio, TV, etc.

...and I'd rather Chuck Shrameck be allowed a chance to publish
to a wide audience what the mainstream would deny, decry, and
otherwise deride. Elevator music while waiting for predigested
truth is not an answer.

 >When it comes to phenomena, especially UFOs, quality research
 >and qualified researchers are few and far between. However,
 >there are plenty of theorists with wild ideas and claims willing
 >to share their thoughts with anyone who will listen.

Well - where am I, then, going to have an opportunity to hear
what they have to say?

 >Unfortunately, many of these programs on the airways will do
 >anything to boost ratings or just keep the show on the air so
 >they put just about anyone on the air. Here and there they share
 >interesting research/information but by and large they go for
 >quantity over quality - anything to keep the audience's
 >attention.

That's a charge more ably leveled at a hijacked mainstream than
our paranormal enablers.

 >It does no good to complain to the program hosts, producers
 >and/or directors because they focus more on the ratings than the
 >content of their programs. (Even though hoaxes have been clearly
 >demonstrated to Art Bell he continues to present/promote them on
 >his programs and on his web site.)

That may be. I don't know.

 >>No -- to keep the facilitators,
 >>like EBK, in business they can't be made to pay the freight of a
 >>lying sociopath until they collude in the lie... then they
 >>_earn_ their candidacy for chemical castration and punitive
 >removal from the journalistic gene pool..... <g>

 >I never even mentioned EBK, Alfred, you did.

Hey -- he's an 'enabler'. In for a penny, in for a pound. But I
say this remembering I watched a clear eyed and unblinking Errol
shove the smirking sneer right back up the nose of his
mainstream interviewer on Canadian television... demonstrating
why he is one of my personal heroes. [g].

 >I thought we were
 >talking about the Reed hoax and those involved.

No ma'am - we were taking about scurrilous enablers.

 >But any median
 >available to large populations must be held responsible for the
 >content of the programs presented.

Nonsense. They are as innocent as the credulous public until
they collude in the hoax, fabrication, or lie. Perhaps they
should show a little more discretion (?), but I'd prefer someone
shout "fire" in the theatre if they think the theatre really
_is_ on fire. There won't be any panic until someone smells
smoke or sees a flame, and then some may be killed in the
stampede to get out, but more will survive than if they all just
SAT there waiting for someone, even you, to certify the smoke
and flames.

 >Actually, we are all enablers (what you have changed to
 >"facilitators") as long as we accept the status quo and do
 >nothing to change it.

I don't think anyone will accuse _me_ of accepting the status
quo, Ms. Hebert. [g].

 >As long as we _allow_ low quality,
 >sensationalized materials to permeate the UFO community, we
 >promote the very concepts we abhor.

I don't want anybody defining 'quality' for me, low, high, or
otherwise. 'Air' the claims, and I'll decide, define, and defy.

 >Each hoax, each lie, each
 >unfounded claim contributes to the image we, as a community,
 >project to the world.

Better level that charge at a duplicitous, desultory, and
detached mainstream, first. Successful, that good projection
we'd all desire is enhanced. I think you'd blame the leaf rot on
the plant, and not the conditions in which it is rooted. The
fringe exists to fill a void created by that mainstream, not the
reverse of that, as is commonly accepted and you imply here.

 >We increase the "giggle factor" by
 >allowing the nut cases to speak for us.

...you mean the ones that the 'mainstream' portrays... those are
the guys that see the BIG air...

 >High quality research and information is available yet is rarely
 >found on shows like Art Bell and Jeff Rense because... the
 >producers and directors are myopic.

I don't think they're even _there_, Ms. Hebert. CNN, CBS, ABC,
FOX, and NBC are AWASH with producers and directors and how are
_they_ more forthcoming for it?

 >They see only that which
 >fits what I have come to call the "UFO/alien paradigm".

That's the mainstream you're talking about, forgetting the
paranormal enabler, and it is a valid subject that is dismissed
and ridiculed as the production of a fringe not getting near
_enough_ attention.

 >If it
 >looks like a UFO, flies like a UFO, acts like a UFO, then it
 >must _be_ a UFO and is therefore, news.

Works for me! [g]. I'd have the mainstream think like that!

 >Any being which cannot
 >be identified as human must come from another planet or be a
 >new, exotic species. Anything suggesting otherwise is not part
 >of the "UFO/alien paradigm" and virtually invisible to those who
 >sell sensationalism . As long as the media stays locked into the
 >UFO/alien paradigm, so will the public. This is why nothing
 >really changes, it's a viscous circle.

Well -- shooting the piano player for playing a song he doesn't
'know' is bad is going to make those piano players real scarce
after a while, don't you think?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                       Re: Death of Ufology - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:20:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:47:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Connors


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:17:08 -0500
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Hebert

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Death of Ufology
 >>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600

<snip>

 >I would like to take this moment, Wendy, to express my deepest
 >admiration for your efforts to create an archive based on data
 >related to UFO phenomena. An archive containing case studies is
 >one of the most valuable contributions that can be made to any
 >field of study. You have done an outstanding job!

Thank you, Amy. However, I do not maintain a large amount of
case studies. Case studies I do maintain are limited to the
Project SIGN era. There are many noteworthy researchers who do
archive massive amounts of case studies. I concentrate mainly on
the organizational aspects of crypto-aeronautic history,
timelines, people and organizations. In other words, I research
the people and organizations that concentrate on UFOs and
endeavor to maintain and preserve a history of crypto-
aeronautics as a whole.


Wendy Connors








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   Jun > Jun 4

                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:29:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:48:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - White


 >From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:46:45 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

<snip>

 >(Man, it sickens me how much we don't know about how
 >telepathy and other forms of connection, such as empathy
 >and even feelings, work).

I've often wondered why researchers into a field as esoteric as
UFOs regularly seem (maybe I'm mistaken?) to ridicule ESP and
related classes of events on the air. Especially when so many
abductees report that ESP is the main or even only way aliens
communicate.


Eleanor White








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:14:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:51:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:03:06 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

<snip>

 >You all are the good guys, and even if there are differences of
 >opinion, you are able to at least question the messengers of
 >fakery. I am just amazed at the Cajones of the folks who try
 >this sort of thing. To my own rather limited knowlege of the
 >matters of UFOs, the necessity of calling fakes is paramount.
 >The 'bunkers are indeed the ones who are living in dream world.
 >Reality is completely different for those of us who have
 >experienced something that can't be a 'Klassified' object.

Hello GT,

Always a pleasure to read your posts even when we disagree.
You pretty well nailed it here.

Guy Kirkwood, aka Mel Noel, has a long and colorful history in
ufology fooling the likes if Max Miller and large numbers of
other ufologists over the years. He even confessed that he was
bogus, but he just can't stop trying to take people down the
garden path just one more time.

There is a large article about him in the UpDates Archive,
reprinted from UFO Magazine, but I can't seem to locate it right
now.

The Sign Historical Group did an oral history interview with
him. He does know about aviation and other things which lend his
stories credibility to those who take things as they appear on
the surface.

A little digging, however, quickly reveals how bogus his stories
really are.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:56:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:03:06 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:20 -0300

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 ><snip>

 >>>>>I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >>>>>Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >>>>>Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >>>>>he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >>>>>(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >>>>>with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >>>>>evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >>>>>found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >>>>>time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >>>>>cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >>>>>someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA

 >Ok, What unit, regular, air guard, and for how long? Irritates
 >me with these weasels who claim military service, It is easy to
 >check them out (If you know what you are doing). Like what model
 >of F-86? How do you start it? what was the armament? (this one
 >separates the A's (machine guns, 50cal. to be exact) from the
 >D's (Rockets)..or the all flying tail what do you know about
 >that?

Good questions GT. I will get the answers for you but since Guy
does not yet have email I will have to rely on the telephone or mail
and if you have more specific questions, please forward to me.

As far as I have seen Guy was flying an F-86, but not a D. The
six machine guns were removed and replaced with Bell 7 Howel
cameras (little ones for that time). I remember Guy saying that
the gun ports converge on a point at such a distance ahead of
the airplane but do not remember the distance point.

 ><snip>

 >>It seems amazing that suddenly Guy Kirkwood comes up with a
 >>DD214 even though Linda Howe gave him plenty of time to do so a
 >>few years back after we had a big session at the Hilton Hotel in
 >>LA with Guy.His first excuse was that it was in a box that fell
 >>off the truck when he moved. Another extension ; no form. He
 >>also claimed to have flown DC-8s for United, but could not
 >>provide a copy of his card for the Airline Pilots Association
 >>though he claimed membership.They didn't have him listed under
 >>any of the 3 names he has used. I checked the FAA for his pilot
 >>credentials. He was cleared for single engine aircraft. The DC8
 >>has 4 big ones. He claimed to have graduated from Cheshire
 >>Academy.I checked with them, he had only attended for a few
 >>months and no graduation.There was also a letter from the Air
 >>Force denying that anybody by any of his names had been an Air
 >>Force pilot. His story about what happened (being threatened by
 >>a supposed CIA agent brother of the host,Bob Dornan,) on a TV
 >>show when he was exposed, was a flat out lie. I would suggest he
 >>is a consumate con-man.That is a left handed compliment.

Not amazing at all. He had already said that it was buried in
boxes in storage and after a lot of urging he finally went
through those boxes and found his records.

BTW, he said that he flew as a flight engineer (not a pilot) on
the DC8, at least, the flight he told me about where the pilot
used the stewardess' camera to photograph a cylindrical-shaped
UFO pacing the airplane. He also described his duties in great
detail.

 >Ask any DC8 driver: What are the "suitcase handles" the real
 >ones will tell you exactly what they are and the reason for
 >them. Kind of like how you can tell if someone ever flew B-17's,
 >ask the how they got in. Better yet - if they are capable and a
 >B-17 is handy, have them demonstrate - another thing is the way
 >a DC8 deploys the spoliers on landing.

Will ask.

<snip>

 >>>have known Guy now since 1977 and have always heard a
 >>>consistent story from him including the photos he has shown me,
 >>>however Guy has drawbacks in that he gets involved with
 >>>"schemes" that he believes in and I don't which make him look
 >>>like a huckster and I will be the first to admit that, but I
 >>>have not yet thrown away his USAF story and see no reason to,
 >>>but admit it loses value because his records have not been
 >>>accessed by other investigators from military archives and
 >>>examined and compared to his claims.

 >Here is my somewhat paranoid take: what if Guy (and Lazar) are
 >ah, disinformation specialists? To confuse the issue with a
 >murky trail and unbelievabilty.

Don't think so, but disinformation is hard to prove until you
have authentic information to compare with, else its just an
empty allegation.

<snip>

 >>>>Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
 >>>>story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
 >>>>forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
 >>>>transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
 >>>>is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

 >Know a few Seals, they will 'out' a fake, if they get him. Not
 >pleasantly, either.

I know this too.

 >>>This is something that would surely dead agent his story. There
 >>>is no excuse for forgery.

 >>>>Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
 >>>>record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
 >>>>Army were in administration... which he denies.

 >There is a clown if there ever was one, wasn't he the one who
 >claimed to be either a Ranger or Green Beret who shot down or
 >retrieved a crashed saucer in Vietnam? Names of members in his
 >unit, or the unit itself. Where and when? Curiously, these folks
 >usually never surface.

<snip>

 >Bill, there are the sceptical on this List that could be gummed
 >on the knee by a Grey and debunk the event as an over aggressive
 >Mexican Hairless.

True. I have no compulsion to prove anything to the skeptical.
Let them do their own footwork if they are so interested. If
they are still skeptical, fine. Where is that consensus reality?

 >>>I, myself, am careful to keep my records straight and have never
 >>>claimed education beyond my actual achievements. I still cannot
 >>>afford a PhD, much less a few more classes to take me beyond 3
 >>>years of college. I don't know how my Dad did it when he managed
 >>>to graduate with an LLB from Yale. University courses were a lot
 >>>less expensive these days. I work at UCLA now and realize the
 >>>high cost of education.

 >>>We have an Astrobiology Society on campus and sure wish they
 >>>would be open to the UFO-alien question.

 >Not as long as reason prevails. Astrobiology is slime and lichen
 >on a rock, on the wall, of Vallis Marineris not the Kilngon
 >Battle fleet that just blocked out the light of the full Moon.
 >The idea of UFOs and Aliens is anethema, heresy, to the dogma
 >of Reason.

Those slime molds may one day turn into Klingons so watch your
out overhead lest they descend on you with Bird of Prey!

B. Hamilton







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                          UFO Sighting over Caracas

From: Loise Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:40:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:58:04 -0400
Subject: UFO Sighting over Caracas



SOURCE: Martha Rosenthal, CEINPLA
DATE: Monday June 3, 2002

The following is an e-mail communication from Martha Rosenthal
of Venezuela's CEINPLA:

"Ricardo, age 11, is talking to me as I transcribe the
following:

"Right now at 7:42 p.m. [there is] a UFO over the
electric plant located in Bello Monte, an urbanization of
Caracas. [It is] a flattened, shiny disk with lights (he says
they look like stadium lights--enormous), red, yellow and white
with quick color changes. The red color brightens and dims. His
brother George, 16, and his sister Penelope, 14, also saw it.
[The object] was static at first and then balanced smoothly
until it disappeared and reappeared. This occured twice. His
father, Enrique Delgado, claims it was not a satellite. The
[object's] type of movement or displacement drew their
attention. Even though little Ricardo has seen them other times,
he nonetheless remains very excited."

===================
Translation (C) 2002. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.



World Of The Strange Newsletter
http://www.worldofthestrange.com








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                       Re: Death of Ufology - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 13:45:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:59:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Fleming


 >From: Malcolm McClaren <clandestine@moonshinehollow.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 04:18:54 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >Funded credible scientific research would address this matter
 >but as we know ufology has discredited itself therefore science
 >won't touch it with a barge pole.


I very much doubt that this is true. I think "funded credible"
scientists don't study UFOs because there is no way they can get
funded to do it. If the government were to provide grants for
UFO research, scientists would be stepping all over each other
trying to get them, no matter how much the subject is held in
disrepute by the scientific orthodoxy. There've always been a
legions of quacks peddling phony cancer cures, but that never
stopped medical scientists from working on real cures because
the money was always available for it in large quantities.

In the case of UFO research, what we have instead is a small
number of _unfunded_ but credible scientists devoting their own
time and money to the research simply because they find the
subject interesting and worthy of study. The "lunatic fringe"
are naturally attracted to UFOs like ants are naturally
attracted to a picnic. It's not the fault of the serious
researchers; there's really nothing they can do about it.

It would help if the news media were to report more on the good
researchers, but they prefer to focus on the lunatic fringe. I
think that one way for UFO researchers to improve the reputation
of their field of study is to cultivate relationships with
conscientious journalists. As for the funding problem, academic
and government funding sources are permanently blocked to the
study of UFOs. But researchers might consider trying to gain the
support of successful business entrepreneurs. Like the princes
of the Renaissance, they tend to support work they find
appealing without much regard for the latest academic fashion
trends or government funding policies. The National Institute
for Discovery Science, founded by a wealthy real estate
businessman, is the sort of thing that I'm thinking of here.








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 23

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 20:04:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:06:54 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 23


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 23
June 4, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CATTLE MUTILATIONS SPREAD IN ARGENTINA

Two cows were found dead under strange circumstances this
weekend in a field located north of the town of Jacinto Arauz in
Argentina's La Pampa province.

As occurred in the other cases, recorded in several locations of
the provincial east, the cows were missing certain organs, and
no traces or clues as to their deaths were found.

Professional veterinarians who examined the animals were
notified on Saturday," May 25, 2002, "by the field's owner,
whose name was not disclosed. The cows were some 8 meters (26
feet) away from each other in an area with dense ground cover.

The animals were examined by veterinarians Evaristo Doumoulin
and Gaston Granieri. The first could not find a logical
explanation when asked for one: 'In 21 years in this profession,
I never saw anything like it. Both cows are missing teeth, and
one was missing abdominal tissue from the inguinal area. The
mammary glands were missing, having been completely excised
without leaving traces or damage in surrounding tissues. The
incisions to the skin were clean and irregular and did not
affect tissue in immediate contact with the skin. No muscles
were affected. (The cow) was also missing an ear and had a ring
of skin concealed between both parts of the outer ear, which was
perfectly cut.

The animal "was also missing its lips and 60 percent of its
tongue. The other animal showed similar characteristics, with
the difference that the mammary gland was only partly missing."

"In both cases, normal blood coagulation was found in the
jugular vein," Dr. Doumoulin said.

As readers will recall, other animals were found dead in equally
strange circumstances in the fields of" Macachan and General
Acha in La Pampa province and Salliquelo in Buenos Aires
province. The town of Jacinto Arauz is located 180 kilometers
(108 miles) southeast of General Acha and 150 kilometers (90
miles) south of Salliquelo. (For more on the cattle mutilations
in Argentina, see UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 19 for May 7,
2002, "Three cattle mutilations reported in Argentina," page 1
and UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 22 for May 28, 2002, "Another
cow mutilated in central Argentina," page 4.)

The find has drawn the attention of provincial and local
authorities alike.

Jacinto Arauz is about 400 kilometers (250 miles) southwest of
Buenos Aires, the national capital. (See the Argentinian
newspaper La Arena for May 28, 2002, "Two cows found dead in an
Arauz field. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor de los
libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, y
tambien Gloria Coluchi para eso articulo de diario.)


GLOWING PURPLE UFO DIVES INTO THE SEA OF MARMARA

On Sunday, May 26, 2002, at about 5 p.m., Turkish fishermen
hauling in their neats near Sivri Island in the Sea of Marmara
"saw a bright, purple-colored object fall into the sea."

The UFO slipped beneath the waves at an estimated position of
40.55 degrees North latitude and 28.50 degrees East longitude."

The witnesses said the object fell at an extreme speed. By
chance, an amateur video camera captured images of the falling
object. The object caused a panic among the fishermen. As the
phenomenon laste only a few seconds, it wasn't seen by many
people."

According to the research group TUVPO, the video is now being
analyzed by the Turkish Ministry of Defense, by the National
Observatory in Istanbul and by TUVPO. A full-resolution image of
the object can be found at the group's website at
http://www.tuvpo.com. (Many thanks to John Hayes and TUVPO for
this report.)

(Editor's Comment: Okay, readers in Turkey and Greece, here is
your BOLO--Be on the lookout for an unidentified submarine
object (USO). The USO can probably be spotted from shore at
Barbaros, Murette, Sarkoy, Gelibolu, Lapseki or Canakkale in
Turkey. If you're in the Aegean Sea area, keep a close watch on
the seas around the islands of Gokce, Bozca, Limnos, Thasos,
Samothraki and Evstratios.)


DAYLIGHT DISC HOVERS OVER SANTURCE, PUERTO RICO

Ana Torres, 45, is a computer programmer who lives on the Calle
del Parque in Santurce, P.R., near San Juan. On Thursday, May
23, 2002, Ana woke updecided to have a snack, and upon looking
through the window (which faces the southern part of the island-
-L.G.) she noticed a UFO suspended over the Caguas-San Juan
Expressway.

Sra. Torres described the UFO as "shiny and silvery, rounded but
appearing to have a tail on one of its sides, which appeared to
be part of the UFO itself. In other words, a single piece
(object--J.T.) The 'tail' was surrounded by lights all around.
The UFO was four blocks away and at a height of 16 stories (165
feet or 15 meters), giving the appearance of a mid-sized car.

Ana Torres was so excited that she decided to go to the terrace,
which is next to the kitchen, to confirm the sighting. The UFO
was there and stationary. It was shiny and silvery, made of a
material similar to 'stainless steel.' Ana has no idea when the
UFO arrived. She only knows that it was there, in a stationary
position, for some two minutes. It gave her enough time to reach
the terrace, to see it with greater detail. The UFO suddenly
darted towards the Caguas-San Juan Expressway. Ana was so
'excited and joyful' at seeing the UFO that she telephoned her
father (who lives in the city of Ponce--L.G.) and her friends
Yadira, Maritza and Jose to describe her experience." (Muchas
gracias a Lucy Guzman y Orlando Pla para esas noticias.)


ORANGE UFOs SIGHTED IN FRANKFORT, INDIANA

Rufus D. lives in a rural area north of Frankfort, Indiana
(population 16,662.) "Last night, (Friday) May 30th (2002), I
was talking and looking at the stars with my girl friend. All of
a sudden, something caught the corner of my eye. I stood up and
saw two bright orange lights, that appeared to be very big,
(remaining) still in the sky. Three seconds later, they faded
out." "Another three seconds and three lights appeared west of
the first set. Then fading again. We ran inside to tell her
parents. We all came out and looked for about 15 minutes. Then
the same light caught my eye. We stood up, seeing three orange
lights fade away." "Then, four seconds later, four huge orange
lights appeared in a vertical line. The middle light faded out,
then the rest went out. Are these common? Does anyone know what
they are?" Frankfort is on Routes 28 and 421 about 40 miles (64
kilometers) north-northwest of Indianapolis. (Thanks to UFO
Reports for this item.)


DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED IN PENSACOLA, FLORIDA

    On Friday, March 15, 2002, at 1 p.m., in Pensacola, Florida
(population 56,255), the witness, Ms. Stone, "looked up and saw
it already in the sky. I went to get family and friends, and it
was gone. It was slightly northwest of me, almost directly
overhead."

"The object was a bright silver shiny disk that made no sound
and cast no light. It appeared to reflect the sunlight. It
hovered and moved in a tight, jerky, circular, even level,
pattern. Looked to be about 100 to 200 feet (30 to 60 meters) in
the sky, but I am not a good judge of distance."

"The sighting took place for about a minute. I was mesmerized.
It was almost like it wanted me to see it. And when I left to
get my family and come back, it was gone. Two of my neighbors
were nearby and heard my commotion. There are a lot of tall pine
trees in my area of Myrtal Grove in Pensacola, and I saw the
object through a tiny clearing."

Pensacola is on the Gulf of Mexico about 200 miles (320
kilometers) west of Tallahassee, the capital of Florida. (Email
Form Report) (Editor's Note: Pensacola and the neighboring town
to the south, Gulf Breeze, are the most notorious UFO "hot
spots" in Florida.)


CYLINDRICAL UFO SIGHTED IN ENDICOTT, NEW YORK

On Sunday, May 26, 2002, at 6:25 p.m., the witness, F.A., "saw a
white cylinder flying from the center of the sky, almost
directly above me, to the south-southwest. It was flying under
two airliners that were flying at their usual altitude. (33,000
feet or 10,000 meters--J.T.) I suspect that the object was at
about five to ten thousand feet (150 to 300 meters). It made no
sound, had no markings. It didn't change shape or color."

"When it turned from the east to the south-southwest" over
Endicott, N.Y. (population 13,038) "the angle was much too sharp
to be a normal aircraft. The whole thing (encounter) lasted two
minutes. Another family member also saw the same thing."

F.A. described the UFO by saying, "The object was white, looked
like the shape of a Tylenol gel caplet but was all white. Speed
was approximately Mach-1 Plus."

Endicott, N.Y. is on Route 26, near Bignhamton, and is about 200
miles (320 kilometers) northwest of New York City. (Email Form
Report)


LUMINOUS UFO SPOTTED IN KINGSBURG, CALIFORNIA

On Sunday, May 26, 2002, at 9:15 p.m., the witness, Jim, "went
out to my truck" at his home in Kingsburg, California
(population 9,200), a small town near Fresno, "to get a package
I left in it from shopping. I noticed what at first I thought
was an aircraft of some sort coming from the west. But right
away I thought to myself that aircraft rarely fly in that
direction (eastward) around here. They usually fly north to
south between L.A. (Los Angeles) and the Bay area (San
Francisco), or Fresno, which is only 20 miles (32 kilometers)
from here."

"Well, this bright light, which I would say was larger and
brighter than the brightest star or planet, came cruising closer
a bit south of me," Jim reported, "I thought, O.K., it's a
satellite. But satellite got dismissed pretty quick because it
was much brighter and larger, and at the same time I could see
an airliner traveling much higher!"

"As far as I could tell, there was no sound coming from the
object, no red or green (navigational) lights or flashing
strobes--just a bright light. I had plenty of time to go in and
grab the binoculars, which did not help show any detail at all.
It was traveling at a slow rate of speed in a straight line. I
watched it for about four minutes until it was out of sight."

"This thing was BIG! A small handful of other people, and a
policemen friend of mine who, with other officers, was out on a
SWAT Team practice that night, saw the display also," he added,
"It was mostly clear weather- -light thin clouds to the south
and over the Sierra Nevada Mountains." (Email Form Report)


CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN CANADA

On Tuesday, May 28, 2002, four crop circles were discovered in a
field near Duncan, B.C. (population 4,583), a small town on
Vancouver Island, which is just offshore from Canada's British
Columbia province.

According to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle Research,
"The largest circle was approximately 6 meters (20 feet) in
diameter, the second about 3 meters (10 feet) and two smaller
ones." The circles were "somewhat irregular with hay flattened
in one direction and a small 'vortex' in the center. The hay is
approximately three feet (0.9 meters) high." The circles were
"reputedly NOT there the day before (May 27, 2002). No tracks
were seen going into the circles when they were first found."

Two days later, on Thursday, May 30, 2002, witnesses reported
"unusual non-circular flattened areas" of tall grass "in a
remote agricultural area" of Mansfield in Canada's Ontario
province. "Grass is bent, not killed. Landowner reported that
this has happened before, including in a lily patch, with lily
plants being bent in a sweeping rotational pattern."

Unfortunately, by the end of the week, before cerealogists could
study either the Duncan or the Mansfield site, persons unknown
had tramped through the field, destroying any opportunity for a
detailed survey of the crop circles. (Many thanks to Paul
Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle Research for these reports.)


UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in news groups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

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                       Re: Fewer Abductions? - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:59:32 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:58:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Aubeck


 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Fewer Abductions?

 >Hello All,

 >Have the 'Bugs' finally collected enough human DNA?

 >Are the "aliens" through with us?

 >Has 'Phase Two' of whatever the hell it is 'They'
 >are up to been completed/accomplished?


Dear John,

Could it be that abductions have dropped off as part of a cycle
in which they regularly decrease?

If the phenomenon has been going on for as long as many think
there may have been periods like this before, yet if the serious
study of abduction experiences is relatively new it is likely
that nobody has noticed it.

UFO reports also seem to come and go in waves. Has a "negative
wave" (as I sometimes call it, for lack of a better term) been
noticed before in abduction trends? You would need to consult a
good chronology of known incidents to come to a conclusion, of
course.

Just a thought.


Chris Aubeck








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                     Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:01:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >The Illegitimacy of CSICOP:

 >One of the most bogus scientific organizations in existence is
 >the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
 >Paranormal. Known by its acronym, CSICOP. It is not a scientific
 >organization, nor does it engage in accepted scientific
 >methodologies in its findings or claims.

<snip>

 >CSICOP, as a fanatical cult with a hidden agenda to prevent
 >acquisition of new knowledge by investigation, is provable.
 >Robert Shaeffer, a CSICOP Committee Member demonstrates though
 >his own words, that CSICOP is not a scientific organization.

<snip>

 >This is Part One of the proof of CSICOPs bogus claims to be a
 >legitimate and scientific organization. It is presented through
 >Robert Shaeffer's own words, which are in direct quotes and my
 >comments, which follow each quoted passage:

Wendy:

Is there some curious reason that you do not provide any
citation for these quotes, including the date that they were
published?

 > From the Collective Mind of the CSICOP Cult:

 >"Our group is not what you would call a front line organization.
 >We don't receive reports directly from the general public. We do
 >not attempt to get a specific number of cases. Because we
 >concentrate only on those cases that the other organizations
 >have put out to be unexplainable."

 >In other words CSICOP doesn't do first hand investigations. They
 >only deal in personal opinion. CSICOP proclaims to be a
 >scientific organization, but doesn't engage in actual science.
 >CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

Shaeffer (if these are indeed his words) said no such thing as
you imply. He clearly means that his group does not make the
initial investigations of these claims, but concentrates on
those which have been proposed as unexplained.

You have deliberately changed, "front line", into "first hand",
something which has an entirely different meaning.

After you changed Schaeffer's words into your own, you then
announced that these words mean that CSICOP, "only deal[s] in
personal opinion", and, "doesn't engage in actual science."

I am curious as to what was going through your mind when you did
this?

Bob Young








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                         Re: Death of Ufology - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:48:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:02:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Hall


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 13:45:34 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >>From: Malcolm McClaren <clandestine@moonshinehollow.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 04:18:54 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >>Funded credible scientific research would address this matter
 >>but as we know ufology has discredited itself therefore science
 >>won't touch it with a barge pole.

 >I very much doubt that this is true. I think "funded credible"
 >scientists don't study UFOs because there is no way they can get
 >funded to do it. If the government were to provide grants for
 >UFO research, scientists would be stepping all over each other
 >trying to get them, no matter how much the subject is held in
 >disrepute by the scientific orthodoxy. There've always been a
 >legions of quacks peddling phony cancer cures, but that never
 >stopped medical scientists from working on real cures because
 >the money was always available for it in large quantities.

 >In the case of UFO research, what we have instead is a small
 >number of _unfunded_ but credible scientists devoting their own
 >time and money to the research simply because they find the
 >subject interesting and worthy of study. The "lunatic fringe"
 >are naturally attracted to UFOs like ants are naturally
 >attracted to a picnic. It's not the fault of the serious
 >researchers; there's really nothing they can do about it.

 >It would help if the news media were to report more on the good
 >researchers, but they prefer to focus on the lunatic fringe. I
 >think that one way for UFO researchers to improve the reputation
 >of their field of study is to cultivate relationships with
 >conscientious journalists. As for the funding problem, academic
 >and government funding sources are permanently blocked to the
 >study of UFOs. But researchers might consider trying to gain the
 >support of successful business entrepreneurs. Like the princes
 >of the Renaissance, they tend to support work they find
 >appealing without much regard for the latest academic fashion
 >trends or government funding policies. The National Institute
 >for Discovery Science, founded by a wealthy real estate
 >businessman, is the sort of thing that I'm thinking of here.

Lan,

I agree wholeheartedly with 9/10ths of your message, but when it
comes to NIDS and Bob Bigelow, you are dealing far more with a
frog than with a prince.

A number of us have dealt with him (or tried to).

His whole highly controlled agenda is driven by personal beliefs
and preferences, not by objective scientific research. Just talk
to most any of the researchers he has wooed and ultimately lost
due to his manipulative and self-serving tactics.

  - Dick









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                      Re: Fewer Abductions? - Reed Hall

From: Reed Hall <Tanaleaf9@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:54:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:05:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Reed Hall


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >Subject: Fewer Abductions?

 >Have the 'Bugs' finally collected enough human DNA??

 >Are the "aliens" through with us?

 >Has 'Phase Two' of whatever the hell it is 'They' are up to
 >been completed/accomplished?

<snip>

 >So what does it all mean? Anything that follows must of
 >necessity be pure speculation, but we _can_ make some
 >intelligent guesses as to what may be happening.

<snip>

 >the number of reports are way down. What I do know is; they
 >_are_ down and that that means something. Possibly something
 >important.

Endgame, perhaps? If Phase Two is completed, is there a Phase
Three, now imminent?

If indeed the incidences of abduction events are on the wane,
one obvious possible interpretation which springs to mind is
that they're just about finished with whatever it is they've
been up to thus far.

This could be a good thing, or a bad thing.

What popped into my own head, as I read John Velez's post, was
the following passage from David Jacobs' "The Threat":

"As if to reaffirm their plan, when aliens talk about the
future, they do not say what most abductees and researchers want
them to say: 'Soon we will be gone. Our program is at an end.
  Thank you for your help. Once we leave no one will be sure we
were ever here.' This is _never_ stated. The future for the
aliens and hybrids is always a future on Earth where they will
be integrated with humans. They offer no other possibility."
  (p. 253, hardbound edition)

Certainly there are other "takes" on the ultimate nature,
meaning, and significance of the abduction phenom. But this is
one "take" which has a great deal of evidence going for it, it
seems, and is at least worth considering. It's one possible,
perhaps speculative (but not altogether uninformed or
unintelligent) guess as to what may be happening -- especially
if it's true that abductions are currently tapering off. Food
for thought, FWIW.

- Reed Hall
www.ufointerviews.com






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   Jun > Jun 5

                       Re: Fewer Abductions? - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:19:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 02:21:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Bowden


 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Fewer Abductions?

Hi there John,

 >For seven years I have maintained a busy/popular UFO abduction
 >related website. (Abduction Information Center) Because of that,
 >my past association with Budd Hopkins and NOVA, I have always
 >received (unsolicited) abduction reports from people all over
 >the world.

 >During Saturday night's segment of SDI, Mark Rodeghier of CUFOS
 >remarked that the number of abduction reports have been down
 >and continuously declining over the last few years.

 >I agree with him.

 >The number of reports that I receive directly has gone from a
 >whopping five to fifteen reports a _day_ to maybe one or two
 >a week. Mind the fact that the number of daily/weekly 'hits'
 >to the website has steadily increased over the years. (Averaging
 >out at about 17,000  hits per month - according to the most
 >recent stats from the Virtually Strange Network Website.)

 >So what does it all mean? Anything that follows must of
 >necessity be pure speculation, but we _can_ make some
 >intelligent guesses as to what may be happening. Maybe the
 >increase in information availability - thanks mainly to the
 >Internet - has reduced the number of misdiagnosed/miscategorized
 >cases. As I said, it's all guessing. I really have no idea why
 >the number of reports are way down. What I do know is; they
 >_are_ down and that that means something. Possibly something
 >important.

 >Comments/observations welcome.

I know this is going to sound completely 'out there' but
consider this:

Just suppose for a moment that what has always been perceived as
aliens from a distant World are in fact _us_ from a distant
future.

It has always bugged me that alien creatures from another World
would have the slightest interest in our DNA, what are the odds
that they'd be compatible.

Look at the news over the past couple of years regarding cloning.
All of a sudden our little gene pool has started to become less
than pure.

As time rolls on it's going to get less and less. We had Dolly
the sheep, now they're talking about the Worlds first cloned
baby.

I remember seeing a documentary that put forward the suggestion
that we might in the future design (through genetic
manipulation) a human who would be perfectly adapted for long
term space travel. Imagine the shock when they showed a computer
simulation of what such a creature would look like.

If I am right then it's early day's yet, but from a future
historians point of view, the year 2000 would seem a logical cut
off point. It's from here on in where we started to screw it up.
Hence the drop in abductions.

Yes I know it sounds crazy but no more crazy than the space
aliens theory.

If you need to contact me I'll be at the funny farm.


All the very best,

Dave Bowden






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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:37:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 02:29:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

<snip>

 >Is there some curious reason that you do not provide any
 >citation for these quotes, including the date that they were
 >published?

The citation will appear at the end of the series.

 >You have deliberately changed, "front line", into "first hand",
 >something which has an entirely different meaning.

First, I changed absolutely nothing. "front line" are his exact
words. By saying that I have deliberately changed his words,
then you are saying you know where the direct quote orignates,
which you obviously don't. Therefore, you don't know what you
are talking about.

 >After you changed Schaeffer's words into your own, you then
 >announced that these words mean that CSICOP, "only deal[s] in
 >personal opinion", and, "doesn't engage in actual science."

Since you seem to know where the exact quotes originate, which
you obviously don't, you again are in error and opining. The
quote is direct and accurate. BTW, CSICOP is not a scientific
organization and certainly does not engage in actual science. It
never has or likely ever to do so.

 >I am curious as to what was going through your mind when you did this?

Fair enough. Probably the same thing that goes through your mind
when you post really insipid replies or posts whereby you
haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.


Wendy










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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:09:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 02:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >>The Illegitimacy of CSICOP:

<snip>

 >Wendy:

 >Is there some curious reason that you do not provide any
 >citation for these quotes, including the date that they were
 >published?

Translated <and don't insult yourself by saying I'm putting
words in your mouth>: "Could you send the citations for these
quotes, please." She's done it for me.

One can learn to appreciate an honesty in the translation where
your mocking request just drips with accusation, insult, and
innuendo. "Curious reasons" (?) only in implication, Mr. Young.
Yours. Empty asccusation, I add. Just asking for the citations
would have given you _real_ ammunition if she didn't have them
and avoidence of this embarrassment if she had. The way you did
it just paints you as a corner shooter and a CSICOP stooge.
+
 >>From the Collective Mind of the CSICOP Cult:

 >>"Our group is not what you would call a front line organization.
 >>We don't receive reports directly from the general public. We do
 >>not attempt to get a specific number of cases. Because we
 >>concentrate only on those cases that the other organizations
 >>have put out to be unexplainable."

 >>In other words CSICOP doesn't do first hand investigations. They
 >>only deal in personal opinion. CSICOP proclaims to be a
 >>scientific organization, but doesn't engage in actual science.
 >>CSICOP defaults on its own legitimacy.

 >Shaeffer (if these are indeed his words)

...she has yet to demonstrate any real (not imagined or implied)
behavior to the contrary, Mr. Young, where your behavior speaks
volumes. What artless insult. Were I her you can be assured you
would hear from me. I'd parse you down real fine and see where
you began and ended. Not a pretty process. Each of us would find
out useful things about the other as we made our literary way.
Also not a pretty process. Predictably, you're a little too
quick to impugn.

 >said no such thing as
 >you imply.

Oh wild blueberry blather-wa. He's said that and more in the
exponential. Anyone with a scrape of objectivity knows what
CSICOP is all about... denial, knee-jerk debunkery, and artless
dismissal.

 >He clearly means that his group does not make the
 >initial investigations of these claims, but concentrates on
 >those which have been proposed as unexplained.

 >You have deliberately changed, "front line", into "first hand",
 >something which has an entirely different meaning.

I'm going to forgive her that error, in that it is not to the
detriment of her point, which is these gentlemen you defend so
stealthily are hobbled by a HUGE, irrational, and cowardly bias
that you, incidentally, are seemingly oblivious to.

 >After you changed Schaeffer's words into your own, you then
 >announced that these words mean that CSICOP, "only deal[s] in
 >personal opinion", and, "doesn't engage in actual science."

Credible sources (always prepared to debate I might add) say
that they (CSICOP) are the antithesis of science, are not
scientific, and even impugn science, as you seemingly do.

 >I am curious as to what was going through your mind when you
 >did this?

I think I know! It was a poignantly accurate realization that
the covetous band of evil doers* she references has done more to
keep us in the paranormal dark ages than any huckster, holist,
or hoaxer they'd pretend to dismiss.

...Well, I'm going to go pop some corn and wait for Ms. C. to
post her reply (if she doen't just blow you off completely).
  Can you say "smoking hole in the gut of your two-color CSICOP
idealogy"?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

*yeah... evil. Evil as any other clear hurdle to aggregate
advancement. Clearly only a pretender of true science, what else
could it be?
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                     Bryant - The NARA Response Arrives

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:52:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 02:45:01 -0400
Subject: Bryant - The NARA Response Arrives


FLASH -- The NARA Response Arrived in My Snail-Mail Today

I plan to appeal!


FROM: The U. S. National Archives and Records Administration
       June 3, 2002 -


Larry W. Bryant
3518 Martha Custis Drive
Alexandria, VA 22302

Dear Mr. Bryant:

This is in reply to your Freedom of Information Act request of
May 22, 2002, for a copy of "your entire NARA case file on my
freedom-of-information appeal dated Sept. 14, 2001." Your
request was received via e-mail on May 23, 2002, and assigned
tracking number NGC02-134.

We have located 15 documents, totaling 16 pages, that are
responsive to your request. I have determined that 6 documents,
totaling 7 pages, are appropriate for release without excision
and copies are enclosed. Also enclosed are 4 documents totaling
4 pages that are appropriate for release with excisions made
pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(2), with [sic] pertains to
predominately internal matters. Finally, 5 documents, totaling 5
pages, are being withheld in full pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(2)
and 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(5), which pertains to certain inter- and
intra-agency communications protected by the deliberative
process privilege.

If you are not satisfied with my action on your request, you may
administratively appeal this partial denial by writing to the
Deputy Archivist (ND), National Archives and Records
Administration, College Park, MD, 20740-6001, within 35 days
from the date of this letter. Both the letter and the envelope
should be clearly marked "Freedom of Information Act Appeal."
Include a copy of this letter in your correspondence.

Sincerely,


JAMES R. MATHIS
Access Archivist/FOIA Assistant
Office of General Counsel

Enclosures


[LWB Note: My forthcoming appeal of Mr. Mathis's decision will
center on the impropriety of his deleting the identity of the
three federal agencies to which NARA lent the sought-for records
back on Oct. 26, 2001. On that same date, the NARA "Special
Access and FOIA Staff" forwarded a "Classified Document
Accountability Record" form to each of these same identity-
  deleted agencies. The appeal also will point out that this
cloaking of agency identity perpetuates the government's culture
of secrecy for secrecy's sake -- and, in view of my announced
intention to file suit against these agencies' stonewalling of
my original FOIA appeal of Sept.14, 2001, amounts to obstructing
justice. Ironically, such behavior emanates from the very
organization charged with collecting/preserving/disseminating
the nation's "essential evidence." For shame!]







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                       Re: Death of Ufology - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:35:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 09:04:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Maccabee


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Hebert
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:17:08 -0500

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Death of Ufology
 >>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600

 >>Ufology is in a state of self denial. For most intents and
 >>purposes it appears to be a dead issue. Why is this? Because it
 >>is practiced by few and infiltrated by the many, who fail to
 >>realize the importance of the phenomena as a scientific endeavor
 >>worthy of respect and appreciation for its unique nomenclature
 >>of a mystery needing clear explanation.

 >Excellent review, Wendy! If I may, I'd like to add a few comments.

 >Ufology _is_ dead. It could never be called a science simply
 >because the lack of objectivity was always clearly stated right
 >there in the name of this field of study - 'UFO-logy'.

<snip>

 >Well, to make a long story short, I _thought_ I saw a UFO (or a
 >puddy-tat?).

 >But after I hung up the phone, I realized anything using
 >camouflage- as this thing was doing - is also perpetrating a
 >deception. From that moment on I began questioning everything
 >and believing... nothing.

Amusing. The last chapter in my abduction book - Abduction In My
Life - has the title... Question Everything!

 >This is where Ufology ends and science
 >begins.

Interesting discussion, Amy. Of course "ufology" is not a
"science" but is rather and collection of related information to
which scientific methods can be applied. Unfortunately,
generally only partial science has been applied (propose an
explanation and then go away without carrying through the
scientific method by proving the explanation is satisfactory).

 >I have no need to prove UFOs or aliens exist. Since 'UFO' means
 >'unidentified flying object', of course they exist. Anything
 >that flies and is unidentified to even one person is,
 >theoretically, a UFO. Since 'alien' means a being that is not
 >human (or from over the border) and/or from another planet, it
 >is likely that 'aliens' exist somewhere in such a vast universe.
Research must first be oriented to discovering the nature of a
 >phenomenon and defining what it is or is not before it can be
 >proven to exist or not exist.

Well, from the skeptical point of view "UFO" means something
unidentified as far as the witness is concerned, but that
doesn't necessarily mean unidentifiable. Most UFO sightings are
reports of identifiable phenomena (misidentifications, hoaxes or
delusions). The rub comes when someone has the fortitude (some
might say gonads) to say that such and such a sighting is
completely unidentifiable, i.e., after investigation by experts
the report is determine to contain information about a
phenomenon that absolutely cannot be identified as being a
presently known (s cientifically accepted) phenomenon.

A phenomenon that remains unidentified after investigation is
what I call a TRue UFO or TRUFO. This could be some previously
known natural (read that, unintelligent) phenomenon or it might
appear to be an intelligent phenomenon (or evidence of
intelligence, but not human intelligence... Other Intelligence)

A skeptic/debunker would simply proclaim there are no reports of
TRUFOs.

I, on the other hand, having agonized over sighting analyses for
years, and after having Questioned Everything....,. I claim
there are reports of TRUFOs. Of even more interest, there are
TRUFO reports which provide evidence of the presence of Other
Intelligences.

 >I not only base my research on a study of objects sighted either
 >on land, in the air, in space or in water that lack immediate
i>dentification and/or explanation but also on possible
 >correlations between these objects and identified objects.
 >Before I can study an unknown, I must first find one.

 >Just because a flying object cannot be identified according to
 >current standards of what constitutes "conventional aircraft"
 >does not mean it cannot be man-made or attributed to other
 >variables. Repeatedly I have come across declarations that an
 >object "cannot" be man-made and is, therefore, a genuine (or
 >"true") UFO in dozens of cases I have reviewed (often in reports
 >by prominent researchers and investigators). How can one know it
 >is not man-made if we do not have access to all the information
 >about man-made or "conventional" aircraft? To rule out any
 >possibility is to automatically bias a study and limit analyses.

Yes, but in some cases it is possible to rule out things. For
example, in the hallowed Arnold case, the report indicated
objects traveling at twice the speed of sound. Initially people
considered the POSSIBILITY that these objects were new
developments of the Air Force. But when the military searched
itself for any such developments it found nothing and said so
publicly (and also to J. Edgar Hoover... who had a need to know
:) ).

Hence, man-made craft were ruled out.

As many of you know, it has taken about 50 years to finally find
the solution: supersonic pelicans.








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                     Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:18:41 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 09:06:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

<snip>

 >I am curious as to what was going through your mind when you did
 >this?


Hi Bob,

I'm assuming that she meant that if they aren't front line then
they don't do first hand investigations. More like sit back and
chuck rocks from the sidelines.

But I don't have to speak for Wendy. I'm sure she'll tell you
what's was "going through her mind".


Best,

Don








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                  North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:32:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 22:50:58 -0400
Subject: North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood


Hello, All, Bill,

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p86.html


This is a website with all pertinent information on the F-86
including the disposition of all of the RF-86 (A&F) models.

Seems there were not many made, and the dispositon of the RF-
86A's were of particular note, ending up in the California ANG
by the late 50's. The units are named and the use/fate of the
aircraft. This should help in asking some questions of Mr.
Kirkwood/Noel. Both models had the cameras mounted in a
particular way, some were armed some were not.

Plus if you are an F-86 fan, the Canadair versions were the real
Hotrods of the group, Canadair more adept at stuffing meaningful
power into the F-86 airframes.

GT McCoy









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                       Re: Death of Ufology - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 22:54:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Hamilton


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:35:20 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Hebert
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:17:08 -0500

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Death of Ufology
 >>>Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 00:21:21 -0600

 >>>Ufology is in a state of self denial. For most intents and
 >>>purposes it appears to be a dead issue. Why is this? Because it
 >>>is practiced by few and infiltrated by the many, who fail to
 >>>realize the importance of the phenomena as a scientific endeavor
 >>>worthy of respect and appreciation for its unique nomenclature
 >>>of a mystery needing clear explanation.

 >>Excellent review, Wendy! If I may, I'd like to add a few comments.

 >>Ufology _is_ dead. It could never be called a science simply
 >>because the lack of objectivity was always clearly stated right
 >>there in the name of this field of study - 'UFO-logy'.

Please name a subject that is objective. I really can't think
of one. About the closest is physics, yet from the physicists
I have interacted with I see large subjective factors and hell
of a lot of controversy, especially about theory.

 ><snip>

 >>Well, to make a long story short, I _thought_ I saw a UFO (or a
 >>puddy-tat?).

 >>But after I hung up the phone, I realized anything using
 >>camouflage- as this thing was doing - is also perpetrating a
 >>deception. From that moment on I began questioning everything
 >>and believing... nothing.

 >Amusing. The last chapter in my abduction book - Abduction In My
 >Life - has the title... Question Everything!

 >>This is where Ufology ends and science
 >>begins.

 >Interesting discussion, Amy. Of course "ufology" is not a
 >"science" but is rather and collection of related information to
 >which scientific methods can be applied. Unfortunately,
 >generally only partial science has been applied (propose an
 >explanation and then go away without carrying through the
 >scientific method by proving the explanation is satisfactory).

If so-called 'ufology' were developed into a science with
graduates specializing in various disciplines such as "soil
sampling" what would call this subject? Crypto-aeronautics?
Unexplained aerial phenomena? Unexplained aerial phenomena that
sometimes sets down on the ground or is seen diving into bodies
of water? And how do we move the subject into the domain we
recognize as science?

 >>I have no need to prove UFOs or aliens exist. Since 'UFO' means
 >>'unidentified flying object', of course they exist. Anything
 >>that flies and is unidentified to even one person is,
 >>theoretically, a UFO. Since 'alien' means a being that is not
 >>human (or from over the border) and/or from another planet, it
 >>is likely that 'aliens' exist somewhere in such a vast universe.
 >Research must first be oriented to discovering the nature of a
 >>phenomenon and defining what it is or is not before it can be
 >>proven to exist or not exist.

 >Well, from the skeptical point of view "UFO" means something
 >unidentified as far as the witness is concerned, but that
 >doesn't necessarily mean unidentifiable. Most UFO sightings are
 >reports of identifiable phenomena (misidentifications, hoaxes or
 >delusions). The rub comes when someone has the fortitude (some
 >might say gonads) to say that such and such a sighting is
 >completely unidentifiable, i.e., after investigation by experts
 >the report is determine to contain information about a
 >phenomenon that absolutely cannot be identified as being a
 >presently known (s cientifically accepted) phenomenon.

Ahhh, a missing piece of this is that such UFOs might also be
described as "Unconventional Flying Objects" in that the
observed and reported behavior of the UFO does not conform to
expected conventional aeronautical behavior of known flying
objects. In particular when a structured craft is seen that
behaves as if it defies inertial and gravitational forces. This
is a key part of determining an unidentified classification in
my opinion and a most interesting facet of the phenomena
especially when engineers and inventors start to consider new
modes of propulsion.

 >A phenomenon that remains unidentified after investigation is
 >what I call a TRue UFO or TRUFO. This could be some previously
 >known natural (read that, unintelligent) phenomenon or it might
 >appear to be an intelligent phenomenon (or evidence of
 >intelligence, but not human intelligence... Other Intelligence)

Now I know how I determined it was OI, but please explain,
Bruce, how you reached this interesting conclusion.

 >A skeptic/debunker would simply proclaim there are no reports of
 >TRUFOs.

 >I, on the other hand, having agonized over sighting analyses for
 >years, and after having Questioned Everything....,. I claim
 >there are reports of TRUFOs. Of even more interest, there are
 >TRUFO reports which provide evidence of the presence of Other
 >Intelligences.

 >>I not only base my research on a study of objects sighted either
 >>on land, in the air, in space or in water that lack immediate
 >i>dentification and/or explanation but also on possible
 >>correlations between these objects and identified objects.
 >>Before I can study an unknown, I must first find one.

 >>Just because a flying object cannot be identified according to
 >>current standards of what constitutes "conventional aircraft"
 >>does not mean it cannot be man-made or attributed to other
 >>variables. Repeatedly I have come across declarations that an
 >>object "cannot" be man-made and is, therefore, a genuine (or
 >>"true") UFO in dozens of cases I have reviewed (often in reports
 >>by prominent researchers and investigators). How can one know it
 >>is not man-made if we do not have access to all the information
 >>about man-made or "conventional" aircraft? To rule out any
 >>possibility is to automatically bias a study and limit analyses.

We may not have access to all information on conventional
aircraft. I may have more access than some since I have a large
pool of aerospace engineers living in this valley and see many
test flights. However, if it is unconventional, that probably
will qualify it for unidentified in that all modes of
conventional propulsion have been identified so if some
unconventional mode is in use, it is either one of our best kept
secrets (possible) or it is directed by those mysterious OIs.

-Bill Hamilton








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                  Disclosure2003 Campaign Update - 06-04-02

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:26:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 22:59:07 -0400
Subject: Disclosure2003 Campaign Update - 06-04-02

D I S C L O S U R E 2 0 0 3

MD 8th District Congressional Campaign of Stephen Bassett

Update - June 4, 2002


RECAP

For those who have not received or missed previous campaign
updates, here is a recap of the D2003 Campaign to place an
independent candidate (Stephen Bassett) on the congressional
ballot in the 8th District of Maryland:

Four thousand plus nominating signatures will be delivered to
the Maryland State Board of Elections no later than August 5,
2002 (as of this update 1546 signatures have been gathered).
With the certification of these nominating signatures, for the
first time in the nation's history a candidate will be on a
congressional election ballot directly speaking to the FACT of
an extraterrestrial presence and the government embargo on
the truth of that FACT.

This is expected to generate a substantial national and perhaps
international political story drawing further attention to the
D2003 campaign. This attention will help achieve the second
campaign goal, which is to poll 5% or more after the completion
of the Democratic and Republican primaries on September 10.

The 8th District Congressional race is shaping up to be one of
the most intense and closely followed in the country. This
projection was reinforced by a huge, front page article in the
Sunday, June 2 Washington Post. That article is still up at:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44674-2002Jun1.html

The three leading candidates, Connie Morella (R), Chris van
Hollen (D) and Mark Shriver (D), are expected to raise six
million dollars between them before the election is over. Both
parties are trying to gain control of the House. A very close
contest is expected.

Therefore, 5% in the polls could represent the swing votes in
the contest which would draw further attention to the D2003
campaign and help to achieve the third goal of a vote total in
November of 5+%.

The overriding goal is to tie all of this into other ongoing
developments putting pressure on the government to end
the UFO/ET truth embargo.

CAMPAIGN STATUS

The volunteer staff is now up to 20 people. 1546 nominating
signatures have been gathered. The campaign received its
first $1000 limit contribution from long time activist, Larry
Bryant. Coordination with other independent candidates
has been undertaken with excellent results. The web site
at www.disclosure2003.net continues to grow and many
new position statements have been added. Many more
will be added soon.

The next two significant D2003 projects will be placing up to
100,000 door hangers throughout the MD 8th District and
obtaining endorsements from researchers, activists and other
notable individuals.

SUMMARY

Disclosure2003 is going to achieve its three primary goals: 1)
ballot placement, 2) polling 5%, 3) voting 5%.

Can more be accomplished? Yes! But that is directly dependent
upon how many people are willing to come on board as volunteers
to gather signatures and place door hangers, and of course, how
much money is contributed to the campaign from within the 8th
District and from around the country.

Disclosure2003 is a national campaign trying to bring the
truth to all Americans. We will do our best, and we need
your help.

  __________________________________________________

     Transparent government, private citizenry
  __________________________________________________

Campaign Headquarters
Bethesda/Gaithersburg
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
Phone: 301-990-4290  Fax: 301-990-1099
Email: Disclosure2003@aol.com
Website: www.disclosure2003.net








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               Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:01:32 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:56:22 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >Simple reporting of multi-witness sightings and radar
 >confirmation sightings, without claiming proof, but done
 >_frequently_ enough so the non-UFO-researching public will
 >finally get the point that this is not a phenomenon that
 >happened long ago and far away, and _not_ combined with a
 >debunker statement, would serve as _evidence_.

 >Not proof, but evidence.

 >What's the harm in reporting every multi-witness and/or radar-
 >confirmed sighting for one year, without a follow on by a
 >debunker and let the _public_ decide if this is evidence or not?

 ><snip>

 >>>Doesn't have to be that way, but both UFO researchers and the
 >>>media need to grasp how effective _regular_, quality assured,
 >>>not splashy and not long, media items can be in motivating the
 >>>public. If this is done, there will be the necessary public
 >>>interest to press government to disclose what they know on
 >>>UFOs.

 >>You mean something along the lines of:

 >>"Dear Government,

 >>Could you please tell us what these little blobs are we keep
 >>seeing in our skies?

 >>We haven't got a clue what they are but there's an awful lot of
 >>speculation going around.

 >>Any information would be greatly appreciated."

 >No. That would be silly. I'm recommending what I proposed
 >above - _regular_, no-debunker-follow-on, brief, airings of
 >all multi-witness and/or radar confirmed sightings, and letting
 >the public digest the information.

 >Until regular, no-debunker-follow-on stories are provided to the
 >public over time, then the media can't claim to have tried this
 >and found it not to work.


Three points I'd like to make here if I may.

1. You mentioned 'debunker' a few times in your posts. I hope
you are not implying I am a 'debunker' simply because I don't
happen to agree with your chosen methods.

2. I've noticed in other posts you favour pickets, I take it you
mean demonstrations with supporters carrying banners and
placards. After all how else would 'they' know what you are
demonstrating about? Since you thought my 'Dear Government'
comment was silly I'd be interested to know the sort of thing
you may plan to write on your banners and placards.

3. I do understand what you're trying to do, rally the troops,
battle cry, all that sort of thing.

John Velez made a simple request to get folk to sign a petition:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition/

It's been an uphill struggle to get a reasonable response.

Good luck on the picket line.


Dave Bowden







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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:33:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:12:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Young


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:19:30 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Fewer Abductions? >>

Hi, Dave, John, List:

Then, of course, there is the cultural hypothesis: times, they
are a changing, and the idea is fading.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                            Death Of The X-Files

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:50:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:23:10 -0400
Subject: Death Of The X-Files


Ladies & Gents:

Another symptom of the approaching death of UFOs may be the
recent funeral of that cultural 1990s icon, the X-files.

It if don't pay, it don't play, boys and girls.

That's Hollywood.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:39:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:06:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >>Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

<snip>

 >I am curious as to what was going through your mind when you
 >did this?


What about Bob?

What was going through my mind is pretty simple, Bob. Really. If
one wants to filet or gut a fanatical cult who demonstrates by
words and actions that it is a bogus scientific organization and
that all it wants to do is silence or force people to believe as
the hive does, all one needs to do is hand them their own words.
They will entertain you with a demonstration of self-mutilation,
Hari Hari and self-destruction every time.

What is my source?

Why, directly from the mouth of Robert Shaeffer himself and the
demented collective mind of the CSICOP hive, since he speaks in
the interview for CSICOP. You were maybe thinking I was going to
soil my intellect by magically pulling this crap out of a
Cracker Jack box and claim it was theirs, Bob? Hardly. I didn't
need to do that, Bob, because Shaeffer does it for me. All I've
done is begin to show just how fanatical and dangerous this
bogus organization really is and that it has a hidden agenda.

This is the real deal you're getting to read, Bob. Why does it
scare you so much to have it plastered all over cyberspace? Does
a Third Reich-style Cult mentality make you uneasy because it's
being demonstrated for what it really is? What about that, Bob?

Now, Bob, you are absolutely wrong (aren't you tired of
constantly being wrong? Well, being a CSICOP groupie, maybe
not). These insipid quotes of Shaeffer's are not from a
published source. It's from his own mouth, recorded for
posterity. See, you blew it by accusing me of something you
don't know anything about.

I hope your curious mind enjoys its virtual dunce cap, Bob and
remember, that the CSICOP hive has about as much relevance to
legitimate science as the snot streaks on a child's mitten in
winter. Umm, careful where you wipe your nose. OK, Bob?


Wendy Connors









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                 Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young/Sheaffer

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:00:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:11:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young/Sheaffer


Errol:

Could you please post this response from Robert Sheaffer to
Wendy Connor's recent posting?  Thanks.

Bob Young
--------

From: Robert Sheaffer <robert@debunker.com>
To: YoungBob2@aol.com
Date: 6/5/2002 3:02:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: The Illegitimacy of Wendy Connors' Arguments


Wendy Connors claims that CSICOP is "illegitimate," and cites
some comments that I made (apparently a very long time ago - she
doesn't even cite the source) to try to justify this silliness.
I don't want to spend very much time on such lame stuff, for
obvious reasons, so I'll make only a few points:

Wendy angrily says that "None of these people [the National
Enquirer Blue-Ribbon Panel] are ever named by the CSICOP cult
because this blue ribbon panel does not exist." If she had been
in UFOlogy as long as some of us have, she would know that it
**did** exist - about 25 years ago. (Which shows how far back
she had to go to find something to stir up this much animosity.)
And the panel was a very Big Deal at the time. So this argument
reveals nothing more than her own ignorance. If she had read my
book "UFO Sightings," she would have learned about this Blue-
Ribbon panel. Wendy: if you're going to write some very sweeping
criticism of somebody, it's a good idea to read their books
first. Otherwise you will look like a fool.

"By Shaeffer's own admission the CSICOPs cult doesn't do field
investigation of cases. They only opine and call it science."
This shows nothing more than Wendy's problems with reading
comprehension (as well as spelling). The quotation she is
objecting to is "As far as whether there are any genuine
unexplainable cases... obviously nobody has time to look at all
the UFO reports that have ever been made. There are just
thousands of them and if anyone says they have investigated all
of them, obviously they are way off base." This statement is, I
submit, perfectly unobjectionable. We can all agree that nobody
has ever looked at ALL of the many thousands of UFO reports, and
indeed, nobody ever will. Apparently Wendy thinks that 'CSICOP
has not examined all cases' is equivalent to 'CSICOP has
examined no cases.' Duh.

To my statement "But, we've looked at what has been pronounced,
not by ourselves but the UFO believers, to be the cream of the
crop and we haven't found anything in the supposed cream of the
crop, that causes us to be wrong that there is something
unexplainable here" [did she really transcribe that latter part
correctly?] she replies: "Notice the complete lack of data or
documentation to back this CSICOP scientific assessment?".
Wendy, people do not generally cite reams of documentation in TV
interviews (which is what she appears to be quoting here - as I
said, I'm not familiar with the exact source). However, if you
take the trouble read the UFO books written by myself, by Philip
J. Klass, and by James Oberg [or even look at their table of
contents], you would find critical examination of cases such as:
Travis Walton; Betty Hill; "astronaut UFOs" including Gordon
Cooper; Mexico City UFOs, and many, many other "classic" cases.
"An opinion is not science, no matter how fervently CSICOP
desires it to be." To claim that these and other cases examined
are not the 'cream of the crop' as continuously cited by the UFO
proponents themselves is simply ignorant. Wendy appears to be
following in the footsteps of the celebrated Robert Anton Wilson
by vehemently criticising the authors of books she has not read,
and an organization she seems to know nothing about.

Robert Sheaffer - robert at debunker dot com -
Skeptical to the Max!

Visit the Debunker's Domain - http://www.debunker.com
Resources Debunking All Manner of Bogus Claims
Also: Skepticism / Astronomy / Opera / more








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                          Filer's Files #23 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:54:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:25:20 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #23 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #23-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 5, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

WITH 77 PLANETS, WE ARE NOT ALONE IN THE UNIVERSE

UFO SIGHTINGS: Pennsylvania lights, Virginia cylinder, Kentucky
object, Minnesota lights, Nebraska photos, Oklahoma crash,
Nevada daylight UFO, Washington sightings continue, Canada
sightings, Puerto Rico UFO, Venezuela daylight disk, Argentina
mutilations, England sighting and Turkey daylight video. MARS
HAS WATER AND LIFE? Are you confused about Roswell? See Roswell
Yes!

SEVENTY SEVEN NEW PLANETS AND COUNTING

The Ames Research Center reports that outside our solar system
here are now 69 planetary systems. There are 77 planets and 7
multiple planets systems. Science is now starting to add
credibility to my assertion that there is life on other planets.
Many of the stars being examined have planets, many have
multiple orbiting planets all indicating planets similar to
Earth and able to support life are common in the universe.
Furthermore, some of these planets have likely sent messengers,
and are at this movement or in the past have visited Earth. If
we take a moment to examine the evidence we find almost every
major group on Earth claims to have been visited and taught by
visitors from other planets. Throughout our planet there are
structures that cannot be explained. Many such as the pyramids
could not be built today to the specifications that exist in the
ancient monuments. The ancient history or almost every major
religion, speaks of visitors from space. Many aborigines and
Indians believe they were transported to Earth.

Numerous religious leaders readily accept the concept that God
could have created and planted life on numerous planets
throughout the universe. We can assume that a type of morality
was also provided us. Most civilized people can agree that
certain standards of behavior or laws are normal for a civilized
society. Many great religions teach that commandments were
brought to Earth from alien messengers often called angels.
Today within the US judges are ordering the removal of the Ten
Commandments from schools and public places. The Commandments
that man should not murder, steal, and lie. These commandments
provide the minimum standards for man to enter the universe and
live in peace with other civilizations. The moral teachings of
ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Greeks, and Romans are
surprisingly similar to our own today. There is a kind of law of
human nature, that we all agree to, but don't necessarily
follow. This seems to be in bred into our genes. If we
realistically examine the human race, we can speculate our Earth
may be the home for problem or unlawful type personalities of
the universe. However, we seem to be born with an inner
knowledge of what is right or wrong, what we ought to do, not
what we do.

PENNSYLVANIA LIGHTS OVER DRIVE IN THEATER

EASTON: Sam Sherman reports, "On this past Saturday night, June
1, 2002, I was invited to be a guest at Becky's Drive In Theatre
for the World Drive-In Theatre premiere "Drive-In Movie
Memories," by Don and Susan Sanders. As a longtime producer of
films for Drive-In Theatres, I appear in this film and was one
of the guests at the festivities celebrating the anniversary of
the creation of Drive-In theatres. In my UFO investigations I
have some compelling footage of a UFO over Durea, PA in the
daytime and at night. The daytime footage (enlarged) shows a
metal spinning object flashing many colors. At night it appears
like a bright light with color fringing. Further investigation
has revealed that there have been many similar sightings in
Pennsylvania. Since Becky's outdoor Drive-In Theatre is not far
from the Durea area, which has been a minor UFO hot spot, I
expected to see something. During the showing of the movie (I
was sitting outside on a bench) I scanned the dark sky and
spotted one bright light (similar to the one in the Durea
footage) and to the left of it a similar but dimmer light. I
pointed this out to my family and friends sitting nearby. We
watched as these lights slowly moved down from their fixed
positions to where they had rather quickly moved below the tree
line and were gone. Maybe UFO occupants like to watch movies at
Drive-In theatres. Thanks to Sam Sherman flexaret2@aol.com

VIRGINIA CYLINDERS REPORTED BY TRUCKERS

WILLIAMSBURG -- V. Smith reports strange orb type lights
cylindrical type craft over I 64 between Richmond and Virginia
Beach during the last several weeks. He says he talked to one
guy in the Virginia Beach area who swears he saw a UFO land in
this area. There have also been several drivers with different
Virginia Trucking companies who have said they have witnessed
strange things in the area while driving. One driver with my
company claims a missing time episode of about 3 hours. I had a
friend in dispatch pull up the satellite tracking report on his
truck for that time. During this period of missing time his
truck was stopped in the middle of the road for three hours, but
no one ever saw the truck. Yet the satellite tracking report
shows the truck sitting there and moving 3 hours later. The
satellite tracking system this company uses has been known to be
off by a space of about one block. The thing is there is nowhere
to pull over in this area. We had at least 15 other trucks go
through this area in that time frame that never saw his truck. I
know this driver, he is a very straight, level headed guy, he is
a Southern Baptist, but he was scared as hell. It bothered him
so much he recently quit driving and he had been driving for 18
years. The driver we are discussing has expressed an interest in
finding out, if any others have had similar experiences? I
marked the area on my map. I believe it was the mile marker 135-
150 corridor. Thanks to V. Smith.

KENTUCKY BLACK OBJECT

HENDERSON -- On May 13, 2002, the witness reports hearing a
whooshing sound as he walked outside and looked to see what it
was at 6:32 AM. The witness states, "I saw a black object
hovering about as high as a light post and It hovered for about
two minutes before a red light shot out of the side. The light
moved in a circle and then retracted and the object flew away."
It was a little cloudy but visibility was good. The witness
elects to remain anonymous. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com.

MINNESOTA LIGHTS

DULUTH -- The sighting lasted from 9:00 PM to 6:00 AM, and I saw
it in Morgan Park, on May 24, 2002, during the entire night
there were two round lights that people might think were stars
facing west. They were four times their normal size and much
more active. I saw a little light fly into one of the big
lights. They seemed to be watching me as I watched them.

NEBRASKA PHOTOS

OMAHA -- Gil Rodriguez reports, "I visited my son Gil Jr., his
fianc=E9e in Nebraska and on Saturday morning May 25, 2002, my
son, and his younger brother, his mother and I took a walk over
to his uncle's house to see if they were ready for church. My
son called his Aunt Lisa outside to the back yard. Around 10:15
AM, while they were talking I was looking at the sky and I saw
what looked at first like a whitish or light gray wisp of cloud
move from behind a larger cloud mass, moving faster and ahead of
the larger cloud. It was a bright and sunny morning with a
beautiful blue sky with clouds. This wispy cloud was roughly
circular but it also seemed elongated vertically. I called my
son and asked him if he saw the object? He at first said that it
looked like a parachute and then he said maybe it's a hand
glider. The problem with that is that this thing was between
20,000 and 30,000 feet up, so we dismissed that. He then said,
"It has something revolving around the middle or that the middle
section was turning." He reminded me that I had my 35 mm camera
with zoom lens with me and I took it out and took five shots
before it moved higher up and away out of sight." There were
five of us who witnessed this sighting, myself, my son, his
mother, his brother and his aunt Lisa. It's harder to believe
when you have a sighting by yourself, but when you are with 4
other people it becomes an event that you can verify with 4
other pairs of eyes. Thanks to Gil Rodriguez.

OKLAHOMA MYSTERY OBJECT CRASHES TO EARTH

LAWTON -- Scott Sadowski reports that on June 2, 2002, I saw
what I believe to be something crashing to earth, at
approximately 8:30 p.m. I was traveling north on Sheridan Rd.
and as I looked to the West I noticed an object moving toward
the ground leaving a fiery trail behind it. When I first spotted
it, it was about 35 degrees above the horizon. The object itself
was about the size of a pencil eraser held at arms length. The
trail was about as long as a dime is wide when held at arms
length. I watched this object for five minutes. I noticed that
although I could see the tail shifting, moving and burning out,
it seemed like it was happening in slow motion. This led me to
believe that the object was very large and/or very far away.
When I last saw the object it had descended to 20 degrees above
the horizon. When I came out of the restaurant it had descended
below the horizon and I could no longer see it. I have been
surprised that today I have neither heard nor read anything
about an impact. I was also curious as to whether or not you had
received any other eyewitness accounts or had heard anything
about this incident. Thanks to Scott Sadowski and Jim HIckman
info@TheHickmanReport.com

NEVADA DAYLIGHT UFO PLAYS IN THE CLOUDS

ELKO -- The witness reports, "I was on my way to work at 10:25
AM, but had to stop and pay a few bills and I could see a flash
like the sun hitting on something in the sky on May 13, 2002. I
looked for it and when I found it, I knew it wasn't a plane just
by the way it was moving. It was just above the clouds and
moving very slow, then it would stop and go back in the
direction it just came from. It did this a few times, then
stopped and went up very slowly. I have never seen anything like
it before, and if it is a UFO it is the first one I have seen.
It was flying around in the cloud. I moved up the street and
then lost sight of it, but airliner passed close to its last
position. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

WASHINGTON SIGHTINGS WITH PHOTOS CONTINUE

SPOKANE -- Just wanted to give you an update, and let you know
that the sightings near Spokane, continue on nearly a nightly
basis. There has been a lot of activity around Tower Mountain,
upon which several radio towers and microwave transmitters are
situated. I have also observed things which I still cannot
believe -- such as a large Boeing 707 size, black jet aircraft
change its lighting configuration in mid-flight, slow down to
ridiculously slow airspeed, descend, and then disappear at the
base of Tower Mountain. There is no airstrip there -- there were
no flames or explosion -- and there was no sound. I know this
sounds absolutely nuts, but I am only relaying what I saw. I
leave it to the skeptics and the "analysts" to "explain" it. In
that regard the total lack of interest in investigating this
over four month phenomena has been absolutely mind boggling. All
I can say is that if my experience is typical, no wonder more
people don't report, when nobody, including the alleged pros,
take them seriously enough to investigate. Answers to this
puzzle will not be viewed through the blind eye of inaction, and
nothing will be gained by those sitting in their armchairs
hundreds of miles away typing via email claiming I must be
seeing landing lights." Respectfully, how the hell would they
know? They haven't seen what I have seen, I can guarantee these
are not landing lights. I would perhaps be more understanding if
there were two or three "hotter" spots of activity somewhere in
the world, and the experts were all there, gathering
information. But when something like this has been going on for
over four months and NOBODY shows up, what does that tell you
about the current state of "Ufology"? I'll be sending you a few
of my recent photos. Post them if you would like. Thanks to the
judge.

MUFON's Jeff Sainio writes, "The judge has sent me several
photos since the initial submission through Filer; although the
frequency of sightings is unusual, typically indicating
misidentifications of airplanes, I've not seen any photographic
evidence these are airplanes. Any legal airplane, from any
direction, has at least 1 strobe blinking once/second visible.
These would appear as a bright white spot, with no motion-
smearing, on a long exposure. None have appeared. Nor have
red/green lights been apparent. Several appear to show
nonstandard lighting. A few appear to show color changes; I need
some reference photos to verify this. The judge has agreed to do
this. Photo sequences appear to show a path impossible for an
airplane. I need to do more work before concluding anything
here. Thanks to Jeff Sainio.

CANADA TEN AIRCRAFT

BRAMPTON -- At 10:00 PM, at least 10 aircraft with very bright
lights circling the Brampton area on May 10, 2002, with no set
pattern and altitudes. This is the third time we have seen these
in the past two weeks. I observed this a few times before and
one was a very low and very large flat craft with flashing
lights and no sound. There is always a large light in the
distance which appears to be stationary. All the craft fly to
this light and then everything disappears. Since this is so
close to Pearson International Airport it would seem reasonable
that they would know what these are and be monitoring their
movements, however, in my estimation these are not passenger
aircraft.

PUERTO RICO SHINY UFO

SAN JUAN, SANTURCE --The witness, Ana Torres a 45 year old
computer programmer reports seeing a shiny and silvery UFO on
May 23, 2002, at 5:00 AM. Ana says, "Looking through the south
window I noticed a UFO suspended over the Caguas-San Juan
Expressway." She was so excited that she decided to go to the
terrace, to confirm the sighting. The UFO was there and static.
It was made of a material similar to "stainless steel," but with
a very strange shape. "It was, rounded but had a tail on one of
its sides, which appeared to be part of the UFO itself, in other
words, a single piece. The tail was surrounded by small white
lights all around. The UFO was some 4 blocks' away and at a
height of 16 stories, giving the appearance of a mid-sized car."
The tail was half as large as the UFO itself, giving it the
apparent size of a large car. After two minutes, the UFO
suddenly took off in a perpendicular direction at high speed.
Ana said, she felt excitement, and joy during the sighting but
there were no physical effects. She called her father and
friends who were annoyed at being awakened so early. Thanks to
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Translation (C)
2002. Special  Thanks to Lucy Guzman lornis1@juno.com

VENEZUELA DAYLIGHT DISK

CARACAS -- The following is a e-mail communication from Martha
Rosenthal of Venezuela's CEINPLA: On June 3, 2002, "Ricardo, age
11, is talking to me as I transcribe the following: "right now
at 7:42 p.m. [there is] a UFO over the electric plant located in
Bello Monte, an urbanization of Caracas. It is a flattened,
shiny disk with lights that look like stadium lights--enormous.
They are red, yellow and white with quick color changes. The red
color brightens and dims. His brother George, 16, and his sister
Penelope, 14, also saw it. [The object] was static at first and
then balanced smoothly until it disappeared and reappeared. This
occurred twice. His father, Enrique Delgado, claims it was not a
satellite. The [object's] type of movement or displacement drew
their attention. Even though little Ricardo has seen them other
times, he nonetheless remains very excited." Thanks to Institute
of Hispanic Ufology Translation (C) 2002.

ARGENTINA MUTILATED COW TOLL RISES TO SEVEN

GENERAL ACHA -- (DNA) - Another cow turned up dead in bizarre
circumstances--this time in a field of the region of Quehue. As
in earlier cases, the animal was missing certain vital organs
and no traces were found in the vicinity. Unlike earlier cases,
the cow was putrefying and had not been exsanguinated. Mystery
gripped a rural location once more, this time in the region of
Quehu=E9. The event occurred in the "Don Luis" field, located 12
km. from said locality, on the edge of Provincial Road No. 18
where a cow was found dead in conditions similar to the four
previous ones, given the fact that it was missing the same vital
organs. Members of the Quehu=E9 police station, under the command
of Deputy Sheriff Julio Acosta, together with the officer-in-
charge of the General Acha Sheriff's department, Deputy Sheriff
Jorge Escobar, and the Chief of Regional Unit III, Inspector
Alberto Mu=F1oz, visited the crime scene alongside veterinarians
Rodolfo Farina and Raul Noceda, reporting that unlike the
previous cases, the animal was putrefying. What is strange in
this case is that police authorities scanned the area in which
the dead cow appeared and no footprints were found. After
examining the animal, veterinarian Rodolfo Farina told LA ARENA
reporters that what struck him was the perfection of the
incisions performed on the cow, since they were not made with
blades: the skin was not torn, but cauterized. He added that no
hemorrhaging had occurred despite the fact that ears and the
entire eye socket on the right side were missing. Flesh and bone
at the level of the lower jawbone were completely peeled.

Unlike previous cases, birds of prey and foxes promptly feasted
on a part of the animal which turned up 20 kilometers away. The
cow was further missing its udders and showed a perfectly-
incised cut that also gave the appearance of being cauterized.
The internal organs were sound, however. The dead animal had a
broken rib, a fracture which appeared to have taken only a short
time before the animal's death, because there was still a
hemorrhage that had grazed the lung. The flesh was in good
condition aside from the transformations arising from
decomposition. The capillaries had blood and blood clots were
found inside the heart. Rodolfo Farinas qualified the death as
"abnormal," since neither he nor his colleague was able to
detect the cause of death. "In my 18 years of practice I'd never
seen anything similar -- in the way incisions were made and the
organs removed from the carcass." He stated that it would be
very important for the National University of La Pampa to take
an interest in the case to pursue research and truly determine
the cause of death. "The idea is to create several hypotheses
and try to reach an explanation that allows us to ascertain the
causes of these animals' deaths."

Two more cows were found dead yesterday under very strange
circumstances in a field owned by Mario Horacio Guinder, 15
kilometers east of General Acha. As in earlier cases, which now
total seven deaths, the animals were missing certain organs. No
traces were found on the premises and the causes of death
remained a mystery at the close of this edition. The two animals
were found 500 meters apart. Police authorities and a
professional veterinarian reported to the site and were stunned
by the fact that one of the cows had had an embryo "cleanly"
removed from its womb, "as though some type of laser beam had
been used." Other similar cases occurred in the fields of
Macach=EDn and Saliquell=F3, Buenos Aires Province. "La Arena" (La
Pampa) Thanks to Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
and Gloria Coluchi. Translation (C) 2002.

ENGLAND SIGHTING

CHIRNSIDE -- Ben a twelve year old writes, "I had a UFO sighting
between 1:00 and 2:30 on the road to CHIRNSIDE, a place about 15
minutes drive from where I live." When I saw a black dot
hovering in the corner of my eye I looked and just as I looked
it started going in a z/8 movement (a z with an extra line to
make it look like an 8). I was going to tell my mum and dad but
I had a feeling that someone didn't want me to! I have actually
not told anyone else! This was about 5 weeks ago around May 1,
2002. I'm going to be on the net at nebnet-lunar.netifrms.com

TURKEY DAYLIGHT SIGHTING

ISTANBUL -- Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center reports
the UFO sighting season has opened with a spectacular daylight
sighting captured by a video camera. While filming lightening
scenes on his amateur camera in Anadolu Hisari, Istanbul, Mr.
Saffet Sap, a 42 year old electrical engineer and his sister
Serpil Sap, video taped an unusual shaped UFO at 6:30 PM on May
26.2002. He said, "I was looking north when I saw a strange
motionless object that started to ascend. There was green,
yellow and red lights flashing on top of the object and it had 7
or 8 legs. The object moved overhead and followed a very linear
path towards the north." After hovering for a while it departed
slowly behind a hill, leaving a greenish trail behind it. The
witnesses video taped for 3.5 minutes. The Sirius UFO Space
Sciences Research Center analyzed the film and chairman Mr.
Haktan Akdogan presented the video to the media at a large press
conference and the images were broadcast on national TV and
newspapers. The images amazed the media because they were
especially clear and close up. Analysis revealed the object was
hovering at 1500 to 2000 meters with ten unlit round portals
around the outer edge. The object was scattering lights in
yellow, red, and purple. Close up views indicate the object
rotated periodically around its own axis. The object would stand
stationary and then start moving again without making a sound.
Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center states this is
definitely a UFO under the control of intelligent beings.
http://www.siriusufo.org starting June 7, Thanks to the
International U F O Museum and dhyan1111@charter.net

MARS HAS VAST OCEANS OF WATER ICE AND LIFE?

Gary G, Ford writes, "I was glad to see you note in last weeks'
Filer's Files that underground water can well be liquid in any
places on Mars where the underground temperature is warm." Have
you read the links at Dr. Gilbert Levin's URL?
http://www.spherix.com/mars Dr. Levin was designer, developer,
and '1st scientist' for the Viking Lander 1 & 2 Labeled Release
devices -- the very ones which repeatedly gave positive signals
for microscopic LIFE on Mars in 1976 whose results NASA has been
trying to bury with pseudo-science since then. Isn't NASA a
Science Organization? Not from my observations! (1) NASA's
Pseudo-Science of Martian peroxides and super oxides were
THEORIZED in the Martian soil in order to deny the 1976 Mars
Viking Lander (L.R.) life evidence. Paramagnetic measurements of
the soil by the Mars Viking Landers indicated the soil was quite
Magnetic (as is Magnetite, Fe3O4 =3D FeO.Fe2O3, lower in average
oxidation state than less magnetic orange Rust Fe2O3),
suggesting Martian soil iron is NOT fully oxidized, in conflict
with the Official NASA Line of its having enough peroxides and
super-oxides to immediately oxidize the test bacteria food. In
fact there IS NO independent data to show there are sufficient
peroxides on MARS, nor lab experiments with well-simulated
Martian soil here on earth to back that idea, which is simply
NASA's way of attacking the Real Results! And no subsequent
investigations of MARS, from afar or in the Pathfinder,
demonstrate optical or other evidence of sufficient peroxides in
Martian Soil or Air! (2) NASA demanding that there are 'no
organics' on Mars, ergo 'NO LIFE' - simply because an Instrument
- the Viking Mars Chromatograph - indicated negative for
organics on both Landers. What they concealed for years is that
this instrument's earth double also failed on some Earth rocks
and soil samples, and it is a number of orders of magnitude LESS
SENSITIVE than the L.R. for detecting small traces of living
organics! Levin discusses this in the articles at his website.
Any 'SCIENCE AGENCY' would admit there were some positive signs
for Life, and plan a new mission. Retired Air Force Titan
rockets would have been very cheap to launch and it would NOT be
necessary to develop an entirely new probe/lander design.

(3) NASA insists that at Mars conditions of temperature and
pressure liquid water would either immediately freeze or boil
explosively, so therefore that there can be no liquid water on
Mars. Or can there? NASA spokesmen's arguments use the triple
point of PURE water. But there is enough of an atmosphere on
Mars (mainly of Carbon Dioxide, a substance with great
solubility in cold liquid water), as well as indications from
soil analysis of the Vikings showing very salty soil, that
"single substance" substance equilibrium thermodynamics is
invalid in this dynamic diurnal Mars surface situation.
Petroleum Chemical Engineers, used to dealing with complex
mixtures and dissolved gases, understand that these complex
mixtures can behave very differently from pure substances in
their gross PVT properties. In a high vacuum (which MARS '
surface air is NOT!), evaporating water molecules would tear
away at high velocity, having no air molecules in the way to
slow their flight. But on Mars, evaporated water still has
plenty of air molecule as near obstacles, so evaporation can be
impaired. Because the absolute humidity of water vapor saturated
Mars Air is SO LOW, in still air conditions, layers of 100% to
progressively less relative humidity Mars air would form over an
evaporating water pool. The Mars Viking Landers showed that mid-
day temperatures could rise above 10 degrees C, and mid day air
was higher. Thus, the retarding effect of Moist Martian Air over
a sun-melt pool of frost or ice water could allow liquid water
to linger a few hours in Martian Summer midday. Levin discusses
these items in slightly different terms. On Mars, is this enough
transient water for persistence of life? Why NOT? On Mars, life
could have had hundreds of millions of years to adapt. On Earth,
viable bacteria from tens of millions of years old salt crystals
from New Mexico have been revived, and there are dry lakes in
Africa where it rains only once every generation or two, but
toads live through the long desiccation, revive eat, mate and
reproduce!

On Mars perhaps surviving microbes can devour their more
numerous buddies 'which didn't make it? Underground small more
'advanced' organisms resembling ants, perhaps eating fungus
could live which grows on organic material left over from better
days? The NASA pure substance unreal thermodynamics not only
ignores the real world effects of even a thin atmosphere on
liquid water evaporation, but also ignores the great effect
dissolved salts have on depressing freezing point. Yes, of
course, at night, with temperatures plummeting on the surface to
-100 C below zero, there will not likely be liquid water, but
underground the temperature could be warm in geothermal pockets.
The Underground pressure, salt or fluid resistance of ice-
blocked near the surface, evaporative paths to the air could all
allow liquid water! Some complex underground life, indeed, could
be possible. Thanks to Gary G, Ford, M.Sc. Swimp@shaw.ca
http:www.swimp.org/

DISCLOSURE PROJECT (UK)

Mark Hall writes, "I have come up with the following draft
proposal and goals. The UK Disclosure Project (DSUK) will not be
selling any material. If anyone wants copies of the press
conference video, etc or wishes to make large donations go to
www.disclosureproject.org. We are not interested in sponsorship
or large donations at this time. Anyone wanting to donate any
money, please do not donate any more than =A310. The one thing
that we do not want to be accused of only being in this for the
money". If you want to make a large donation, please go to the
above US website. Volunteers should put up a table up in the
local town/city centre, with briefing material for the general
public to read and show the Disclosure Press Conference tape on
a portable television. Show the Press Conference tape in local
church halls etc. Our ultimate aim is not open hearings, or full
disclosure. This is too high an aim to head for, especially for
a voluntary group. Our aim is to have a meeting between
ourselves, Steven Greer and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. Or if
we cannot achieve this, a meeting with a senior Blair Government
Minister. We hope to achieve this by our contacts who are
personal friends of Tony Blair, and by involving famous UK
theatrical personalities who are open to the truth, interviewing
and gathering the testimony of UK/European
military/government/contractor UFO related witnesses. Also to
conduct media interviews and lectures and produce a UK/European
government briefing video. I have been massively overwhelmed
with the amount of new government and TV contacts I have made,
by simply talking about Disclosure. Let me know if you have
contacts and make see you member of Parliament or Congressman.
Thanks to Mark Hall - mhall@disclosureproject.org.

CONFUSED ABOUT ROSWELL?

By far the best explanation of the "Holy Grail of Ufology" is in
researcher Robert Durant's new video/DVD. Much of the material
from this exciting and authoritative presentation has never
appeared in books or on TV. You will meet the central military
officers and witnesses, examine the Air Force explanation for
the Roswell Incident, and hear the pros and cons of the case.
When you are through, you will know why Durant titled his video
"Roswell? Yes!" and, why I agree. Available from MVP-F, P.O. Box
1292, Kearny, NJ 07032, $15.00 + $4.00 S/H, or call (201) 991-
8227. Specify VHS or DVD. Major credit cards accepted. Or, visit
my online UFO Store http://www.filersfiles.com. to purchase.

THE UFO STORE -- Your purchases at the UFO Store will help pay
for the UFO display at the Air Victory Museum. Go for the widest
selection of UFO books, CDs, and videos on the net at:
http://www.filersfiles.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the complete files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue that the item appeared. These reports and
comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send
your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically
grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please
state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story
confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND
REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer










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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 6

               EW: 06-05-02 ET Search Uses 1 Meg-Year CPU Time

From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior_electricwarrior_com@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:16:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:00 -0400
Subject: EW: 06-05-02 ET Search Uses 1 Meg-Year CPU Time


--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior: News June 5, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
SEARCH FOR ET CRUNCHES 1 MEGA-YEAR of CPU TIME
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: Convergence Technologies

http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewConvergenceXboxThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - ET scientists who a set personal a
computing milestone are also pondering what to say at first
contact.

SETI@home, a distributed network of volunteer PCs dedicated to
the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI), reached the
historic milestone by aggregating one million years of computer
processing time.

The project is the brain child of the SETI Institute, a non-
profit group based in California's Silicon Valley. They're
looking for ET, and they're doing it by searching for signs of
intelligence gathered by commercial radio telescopes.

SETI's senior scientist Seth Shostak expects ET to be a good
conversationalist. "We're looking for intelligent life.
Sophisticated beings that can hold up their side of the
conversation."

He's probably right. Both sides need to think up something
better than "Take me to your leader."

more...

http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0043.htm

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 5, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo











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                                 Rods Redux

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:48:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:31:21 -0400
Subject: Rods Redux



Hi all,

After posting about the Channel 4 (UK) program 'The Secret Map
of Britain' I got private mails saying 'I missed that'.

So I thought I'd post in advance about something showing next
week.

There's probably a lot of you out there who's already got this
but look out for:

Sky One (UK), Monday 9pm, Alien Encounters: Rods.

I'm glad to see, from the ads., at least, that they appear to be
thinking along the same lines as my original observation, that
these things are very fast moving living creatures and not alien
spaceships, which is normally the first conclusion some people
tend to jump to.

By the way,

Well done to the USA in the World cup so far.

3-2 to America.

If you could have seen the looks on the faces of the Portuguese
(a strong team who thought this was going to be a walkover),
magic!


Dave Bowden








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                       Re: Death of Ufology - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:21:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:32:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Death of Ufology - Fleming



 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:48:13 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Death of Ufology

 >Lan,

 >I agree wholeheartedly with 9/10ths of your message, but when it
 >comes to NIDS and Bob Bigelow, you are dealing far more with a
 >frog than with a prince.

 >A number of us have dealt with him (or tried to).

 >His whole highly controlled agenda is driven by personal beliefs
 >and preferences, not by objective scientific research. Just talk
 >to most any of the researchers he has wooed and ultimately lost
 >due to his manipulative and self-serving tactics.

Well, I don't know. He does sound kind of like a Renaissance
prince, if you consider how the Borgias and diMedicis operated.
:)








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                         [canufo] New MUFON Director

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:36:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:36:14 -0400
Subject: [canufo] New MUFON Director



From: Eugene H. Frison <gfrison@cbnet.ns.ca>
To: canufo@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:41:51 -0300
Subject: [canufo] New MUFON Director



2002.06.05


Dear List:

I would like to introduce Jeff M. Roy of Halifax, Nova Scotia as
MUFON's new Provincial Director for Nova Scotia. Effective
today's date, Jeff replaces me as PD for NS.

Congratulations, Jeff, on your new appointment!


Eugene H. Frison,
National Director - Canada
Mutual UFO Network, Inc. (MUFON)


````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
MUFON's mission is the systematic collection and analysis of UFO
data, with the ultimate goal of learning the origin and nature
of the UFO phenomenon.

MUFON HQ on the Internet: http://www.mufon.com
MUFON CANADA on the Internet: to be announced soon

MUFON'S WUFOD UFO REPORTING SITE:
http://ohiomufon.services4all.com

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````







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                    Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar Announcement

From: Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:02:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:38:30 -0400
Subject: Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar Announcement


Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

DAVID JACOBS DISCUSSES: "ALIEN HYBRID ACTIVITY"

Saturday, June 22, 2002

Dr. David Jacobs, world-renowned UFO abduction researcher and
author of THE THREAT and SECRET LIFE, will present a number of
amazing cases that he has personally investigated, which feature
the involvement of so-called hybrids - part alien, part human
entities - in the lives of abductees. What makes these hybrids
so unique is that these interactions frequently take place in a
non-UFO setting, and reveal aspects in which the human side of
these hybrid beings plays a unique role. The information that
Dr. Jacobs will present is disturbing and yet fascinating in the
insights it provides into a possible alien agenda.

This, our final seminar of the 2002 spring season, is a not-to-
  be-missed event. The Intruders Foundation is honored to have
Dr. Jacobs, and encourages your attendance.


REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on June 22nd at the meeting rooms of
A.R.E., on the tenth floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York, NY.
The price of the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for
members of IF, seniors, and students. Reservations must be made
by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first
come, first served basis. Payment must be made in advance to
secure the reservation. Make checks payable to the Intruders
Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Only 50
reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:00 PM. Doors
open at 7:00 PM. There will be a one half-hour intermission,
during which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A
book table will offer books, videotapes, and other material for
sale to those interested. For additional information, call IF at
212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

UPCOMING AUTUMN SEMINARS - Mark Your Calendars!

* OCTOBER 5th =E2=80=A6... Nancy Talbot on "Crop Circles"

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the
interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free
exchange of research, ideas, and theories. IF makes no specific
claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views, or
subject matter presented by our guests.

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website=E2=80=A6


Intruders Foundation Website: www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------

IF respects your e-mail privacy. To be removed from future IF
mailings, please send us a return e-mail with the word "REMOVE"
in the subject heading.






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                       Re: Death Of The X-Files - Hale

From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:45:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:40:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Death Of The X-Files - Hale


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:50:07 EDT
 >Subject: Death Of The X-Files

 >Ladies & Gents:

 >Another symptom of the approaching death of UFOs may be the
 >recent funeral of that cultural 1990s icon, the X-files.

 >It if don't pay, it don't play, boys and girls.

 >That's Hollywood.


I think the show would have faired better had David Duchovney
not pulled out to pursue an "acting career". There will be
another X-Files movie at the very least... I wouldn't be
surprised to see a few more actually since all members of the
cast seem to have interest in doing larger scale productions.


Scott Hale








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:27:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:44:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:33:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:19:30 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Fewer Abductions? >>

 >Hi, Dave, John, List:

 >Then, of course, there is the cultural hypothesis: times, they
 >are a changing, and the idea is fading.


Hola Young Bob,

When the truth of the existence of the UFOs and their occupants
(finally) becomes common knowledge, some people are going to
suffer over it more than others. I guess giving the other guy the
benefit of the doubt (keeping an open mind) is passe and something
that went out with the horse and buggy.

(If) this is all a cultural or psychological phenomena then you
should all be quaking in your boots. If it can 'infect' the
number of perfectly sane people that it has, then what makes you
so smug to think you are somehow immune from 'catching it'
yourself? Any way you look at it, you cut your own throat each
and every time you dismiss these thousands of _honest_ reports
as mere psycho-fluff with no possibility of having any basis in
reality.

If it is psycho-fluff... then please tell me why the mental
health community has not acknowledged and addressed a phenomenon
that is clearly manifest among a _significant_ number of people?
World wide! They usually clamor to embrace anything they can
throw Prozac or some other mood or mind altering chemical at,
not to mention an opportunity to 'bill' for years of therapy.
They continue to invent new 'disorders' daily but they have
somehow not chosen to address one that is 'in their faces.'
Curious.

All these folks, from all over the world Bob, _all_ reporting
the _same_ details - symptoms to you Bob :) Yet the mental
health community has _completely_ ignored it. Ya think that
maybe they already know that these people - abductees - are
_not_ suffering from any major 'mental health' issues? With
exceptions I'm sure. And that _that_ knowledge is the reason
why it has not been addressed by them as a body?

When the reality of UFOs and their occupants becomes common
knowledge... worlds will explode.

The shattering of world views will have the most devastating
effect among those who cling to their beliefs as if they were
carved in Krell metal. When the time comes, and it _will_ come,
they will need comforting and understanding beyond measure.
Imagine for just a moment what a humbling and truly educational
experience it would be to receive comfort, understanding and
help from the very people you have been routinely dismissing and
insulting -without second thought- for so many years.

Be more open-minded Bob. Not gullable mind you, just more open
minded. Willing to keep certain questions open until _all_ the
evidence is in. It wouldn't hurt, and hey, you may _really_ need
us some day.  :)


Regards,

John "Gee, we all must have imagined it" Velez








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                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:59:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:47:09 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' -  Velez


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:56:22 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

Hi Dave,

You wrote to Eleanor:

 >3. I do understand what you're trying to do, rally the troops,
 >battle cry, all that sort of thing.

 >John Velez made a simple request to get folk to sign a petition:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition/

 >It's been an uphill struggle to get a reasonable response.

 >Good luck on the picket line.

I'm going to have to make up some kind of medal or award in
recognition of people like yourself who see the opportunity that
this petition represents. More than most you have really gotten
into the 'spirit' of the thing. You've been a genuine asset/help
to me in keeping it fresh in people's minds. Whether we agree on
all things 'ufological' or not, you are rapidly becoming one of
my heros. :)

The count stands at 988 signatures.

The petition webpage took 4,000 hits last month. Yet the number
stands at 988. A genuine source of curiosity for me. Also some
disappointment. Unlike any other disclosure movement, this one
is truly open, democratic, leaderless, and represents a chance
to really have our voices heard. To 'stand-up' and be counted.

Sceptic, believer, and agnostic alike should all be able to
agree that it would be to our mutual benefit to gain full
disclosure of any information pertaining to UFO phenomena. What
a missed opportunity if a year or so goes by and only a few
signatures are gathered. What will that say about us?


Sign the petition.

Thanx -again- Dave.  :)

John Velez








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                         UFO Shelled Over LA In 1942

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:28:28 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:48:50 -0400
Subject: UFO Shelled Over LA In 1942


Prolly old news to many of you, but I only just read about it
and in light of recent discussions of UFOs over Washington, DC,
I thought I'd paste this link which includes a photograph.

The object is barely visable as it was illuminated by many AA
searchlights. Over 1400 AA rounds were fired at it without any
apparent damage. Incredible!

http://rense.com/ufo/battleofLA.htm


Regards

Dave








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                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:23:56 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:56:22 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

 >>Until regular, no-debunker-follow-on stories are provided to the
 >>public over time, then the media can't claim to have tried this
 >>and found it not to work.

 >Three points I'd like to make here if I may.

 >1. You mentioned 'debunker' a few times in your posts. I hope
 >you are not implying I am a 'debunker' simply because I don't
 >happen to agree with your chosen methods.

No, I don't know about your views and UFO-related work at all.

Debunkers are the guys who say interstellar travel is impossible
because nobody can travel faster than light, ignoring the fact
that humankind does not know everything there is to know about
physics.  And do so at the _end_ of every UFO documentary or
news item, which seems to be the only format the media is
willing to use.

 >2. I've noticed in other posts you favour pickets, I take it you
 >mean demonstrations with supporters carrying banners and
 >placards. After all how else would 'they' know what you are
 >demonstrating about? Since you thought my 'Dear Government'
 >comment was silly I'd be interested to know the sort of thing
 >you may plan to write on your banners and placards.

RELEASE ALL UFO FILES
TO THE PUBLIC WHO
RIGHTLY OWNS THEM

Since weatherproof vinyl signs would be required, I'd also
graphically place that text on top of a greyed background image
of the cover of an IRS form 1040 and have it professionally
printed by a sign shop.  The 1040 would be just slightly tilted
off vertical to emphasize it without swamping the large red,
bold faced lettering.

 >3. I do understand what you're trying to do, rally the troops,
 >battle cry, all that sort of thing.

It's the only way I can think of to get past both the government
and media denial and ridicule, with at least some hope of
motivating interested members of the public to demand answers.
Waiting for more elegant methods hasn't worked for half a
century.

 >John Velez made a simple request to get folk to sign a petition:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition/

 >It's been an uphill struggle to get a reasonable response.

A continuously manned picket site is also an uphill struggle,
and it's tragic that Greer supporters didn't do that around the
time of the May 10, 2001 press conference.  But if you want a
result, you have to put in the necessary work to bring it about.

I haven't heard of any extended picketing for release of UFO
information, so it probably hasn't been tried.  Personally, I'd
guess it might take a year of picketing in a well chosen spot to
budge even those members of government who are in favour of
releasing the files.  Including bad weather days.

I'm saying here that the importance of the issue deserves
extreme effort, in light of what 50+  years of waiting has not
produced.


Eleanor White








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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:09:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:33:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:00:55 EDT
 >Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >Errol:

 >Could you please post this response from Robert Sheaffer to
 >Wendy Connor's recent posting?  Thanks.

 >Bob Young
 >--------

 >From: Robert Sheaffer <robert@debunker.com>
 >To: YoungBob2@aol.com
 >Date: 6/5/2002 3:02:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
 >Subj: The Illegitimacy of Wendy Connors' Arguments

 >Wendy Connors claims that CSICOP is "illegitimate," and cites
 >some comments that I made (apparently a very long time ago - she
 >doesn't even cite the source) to try to justify this silliness.
 >I don't want to spend very much time on such lame stuff, for
 >obvious reasons, so I'll make only a few points:

The source himself admits he made the statements. There ya go,
Bob. No need to cite the source I use, since the Source admits
he made the comments. BTW, Bob. I love the little kid type
running to daddy you did. Cute. There is nothing "lame" nor is
there "silliness" about exposing CSICOPian hidden agendas,
tactics, etc.

 >Wendy angrily says that "None of these people [the National
 >Enquirer Blue-Ribbon Panel] are ever named by the CSICOP cult
 >because this blue ribbon panel does not exist." If she had been
 >in UFOlogy as long as some of us have, she would know that it
 >**did** exist - about 25 years ago. (Which shows how far back
 >she had to go to find something to stir up this much animosity.)
 >And the panel was a very Big Deal at the time. So this argument
 >reveals nothing more than her own ignorance. If she had read my
 >book "UFO Sightings," she would have learned about this Blue-
 >Ribbon panel. Wendy: if you're going to write some very sweeping
 >criticism of somebody, it's a good idea to read their books
 >first. Otherwise you will look like a fool.

Now, see. There CSICOP goes, with twisting the reality of the
situation as usual. First, I didn't write anything in anger.
CSICOP opinion and not fact. Not very scientific to opine. Bogus
statement from Shaeffer. Second, CSICOP opinion that I haven't
read Phil Klass books. I did and even when they first came out.
Books, by the way, that were a total waste of time, money and an
insult to intelligence. Used copies don't sell on Ebay most of
the time. Word must have got out or something about how bad they
really are.

I will grant the following: The National Enquier had a self-
proclaimed blue ribbon panel, but it was not composed of top-
notch scientists as claimed by CSICOP. The reasoning is quite
simple. No legitimate scientist would align themselves with a
gossip tabloid because it would endanger their credibility and
possible cause for loss of research funding. The "blue ribbon
panel" is the typical sham, much like CSICOPs claim to be a
scientific organization.

 >"By Shaeffer's own admission the CSICOPs cult doesn't do field
 >investigation of cases. They only opine and call it science."
 >This shows nothing more than Wendy's problems with reading
 >comprehension (as well as spelling). The quotation she is
 >objecting to is "As far as whether there are any genuine
 >unexplainable cases... obviously nobody has time to look at all
 >the UFO reports that have ever been made. There are just
 >thousands of them and if anyone says they have investigated all
 >of them, obviously they are way off base." This statement is, I
 >submit, perfectly unobjectionable. We can all agree that nobody
 >has ever looked at ALL of the many thousands of UFO reports, and
 >indeed, nobody ever will. Apparently Wendy thinks that 'CSICOP
 >has not examined all cases' is equivalent to 'CSICOP has
 >examined no cases.' Duh.

There we go, folks. Avoidance of the fact that CSICOP does not
do field investigations, fails to consider raw data and
proclaims it is a scientific organization. Shaeffer's dance of
avoidance of the issue repeats the "there are too many cases"
line. That doesn't wash. It is not the number of cases. It is
the bottom line fact that the cases CSICOP does concentrate on
are not scientifically reviewed, only opined over and Shaeffer
admits that CSICOP does not review the raw data. Clever little
critters, these CSICOPian cultists. Science by proxy. Wow,
enough to make any legitimate scientist or scientific
organization cringe.

 >To my statement "But, we've looked at what has been pronounced,
 >not by ourselves but the UFO believers, to be the cream of the
 >crop and we haven't found anything in the supposed cream of the
 >crop, that causes us to be wrong that there is something
 >unexplainable here" [did she really transcribe that latter part
 >correctly?] she replies: "Notice the complete lack of data or
 >documentation to back this CSICOP scientific assessment?".
 >Wendy, people do not generally cite reams of documentation in TV
 >interviews (which is what she appears to be quoting here - as I
 >said, I'm not familiar with the exact source). However, if you
 >take the trouble read the UFO books written by myself, by Philip
 >J. Klass, and by James Oberg [or even look at their table of
 >contents], you would find critical examination of cases such as:
 >Travis Walton; Betty Hill; "astronaut UFOs" including Gordon
 >Cooper; Mexico City UFOs, and many, many other "classic" cases.
 >"An opinion is not science, no matter how fervently CSICOP
 >desires it to be." To claim that these and other cases examined
 >are not the 'cream of the crop' as continuously cited by the UFO
 >proponents themselves is simply ignorant. Wendy appears to be
 >following in the footsteps of the celebrated Robert Anton Wilson
 >by vehemently criticising the authors of books she has not read,
 >and an organization she seems to know nothing about.

Yes, Shaeffer is quoted correctly. Notice the nervous twinge by
questioning it? I have read the books of the CSICOPian cultists
and they are not representative of legitimate scientific
analysis of the cases discussed. Shaeffer admits that CSICOP
does not look at the raw data regarding the cases and certainly
doesn't do field investigations. Yet, CSICOPians have the
audacity to proclaim scientific objectivity. Now that's
chutzpah!

Here we also have the typical ploy the CSICOP cult uses when
it's legitimacy is in question. I am accused of being critical
of Shaeffer and CSICOPian cult members due to ignornance. How
absolutely funny to be accused by a psuedo-scientific
organization such as CSICOP of using the same tactics they use
with reckless abandon. Now that's really funny and certainly
proves my point that CSICOP cultists are illegitimate in the
area of science.

Bob, I'm really glad you ran to your proverbial "Daddy." Tells
all of us a lot about you, son. Unfortunately, Shaeffer admits
to saying what is quoted, so therefore you have learned the
source and he gives you and all the UFO UpDate's readership
reinforcement as to CSICOP illegitimacy. Way to go, Bob!


Wendy Connors









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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:15:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:41:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy


 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:03:06 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:20 -0300

 >>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle

 >>>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>It seems amazing that suddenly Guy Kirkwood comes up with a
 >>>DD214 even though Linda Howe gave him plenty of time to do so a
 >>>few years back after we had a big session at the Hilton Hotel in
 >>>LA with Guy.His first excuse was that it was in a box that fell
 >>>off the truck when he moved. Another extension ; no form. He
 >>>also claimed to have flown DC-8s for United, but could not
 >>>provide a copy of his card for the Airline Pilots Association
 >>>though he claimed membership.They didn't have him listed under
 >>>any of the 3 names he has used. I checked the FAA for his pilot
 >>>credentials. He was cleared for single engine aircraft. The DC8
 >>>has 4 big ones. He claimed to have graduated from Cheshire
 >>>Academy.I checked with them, he had only attended for a few
 >>>months and no graduation.There was also a letter from the Air
 >>>Force denying that anybody by any of his names had been an Air
 >>>Force pilot. His story about what happened (being threatened by
 >>>a supposed CIA agent brother of the host,Bob Dornan,) on a TV
 >>>show when he was exposed, was a flat out lie. I would suggest he
 >>>is a consumate con-man.That is a left handed compliment.

 >Not amazing at all. He had already said that it was buried in
 >boxes in storage and after a lot of urging he finally went
 >through those boxes and found his records.

This strikes me as a load of crap. I know no former military
people who couldn't put their hands on their DD 214s in just a
couple of minutes.

For one thing many of us carry a copy in our wallets.

For another many states provide benefits to veterans that
require the DD 214.

If you asked me, I could have pulled one from my wallet, and I
have copies of all the others from the various points of my
military service.

I find it difficult to believe that our multi-named friend
couldn't produce a DD 214 with a little more ease than he
claimed.

Just a thought.


KRandle








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   Jun > Jun 6

                  EW's DVD Review: 'The Mothman Prophecies'

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:56:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:54:40 -0400
Subject: EW's DVD Review: 'The Mothman Prophecies'


DVD review: 'The Mothman Prophecies'

June 4, 2002 Posted: 2:03 PM EDT (1803 GMT)


By Monica Mehta
Entertainment Weekly

(Entertainment Weekly) - "All kinds of things exist all around
us that we never even see," says Alan Bates, playing a
paranormal expert.

Taking that not unpopular belief and running with it, director
Mark Pellington's supernatural thriller explores the connection
between preternatural prescience and human destiny.

Gere is a newspaper reporter who loses his wife after a car
accident. Years later, he is inexplicably drawn to a town in
which people have been seeing the same giant mothlike image that
haunted his wife before her death.

But it's not just another fright-and-flight flick. Pellington's
camera expertly creates a bone-chilling atmosphere of doom, and
the climax - which ties up the loose ends -will leave you
satisfied as well as spooked.

Grade: B+

--------

Real Mothman Info:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931044341/mothmanbooks-20

--------

DVD:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000648X0/mothmanbooks-20

-------

Video:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006490Q/mothmanbooks-20

http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/04/ew.rec.dvd.mothman/index.html

--------








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                      Re: Fewer Abductions? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:59:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Hamilton


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:27:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:33:51 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

<snip>

 >>Then, of course, there is the cultural hypothesis: times, they
 >>are a changing, and the idea is fading.

 >Hola Young Bob,

 >When the truth of the existence of the UFOs and their occupants
 >(finally) becomes common knowledge, some people are going to
 >suffer over it more than others. I guess giving the other guy the
 >benefit of the doubt (keeping an open mind) is passe and something
 >that went out with the horse and buggy.

Hey, John, I am already suffering over it, suffering from all
these comments, opinions, and attitudes. Guess you and I are in
that slightly different category of experiencers.

 >(If) this is all a cultural or psychological phenomena then you
 >should all be quaking in your boots. If it can 'infect' the
 >number of perfectly sane people that it has, then what makes you
 >so smug to think you are somehow immune from 'catching it'
 >yourself? Any way you look at it, you cut your own throat each
 >and every time you dismiss these thousands of _honest_ reports
 >as mere psycho-fluff with no possibility of having any basis in
 >reality.

Its the 'meme' phenomena. Consider the T-phage virus. A T-phage
cannot replicate itself; it reproduces by hijacking the DNA of a
bacterium, forcing its host to make millions of copies of the
phage.

Similarly, an idea can parasitically infect your mind and alter
your behavior, causing you to want to tell your friends about
the idea, thus exposing them to the idea-virus. Any idea which
does this is called a "meme" (pronounced 'meem').

Just think how we are spreading the UFO and alien memes on this
List and througout the Internet. My gosh, the whole world may
soon be infected!

 >If it is psycho-fluff... then please tell me why the mental
 >health community has not acknowledged and addressed a phenomenon
 >that is clearly manifest among a _significant_ number of people?
 >World wide! They usually clamor to embrace anything they can
 >throw Prozac or some other mood or mind altering chemical at,
 >not to mention an opportunity to 'bill' for years of therapy.
 >They continue to invent new 'disorders' daily but they have
 >somehow not chosen to address one that is 'in their faces.'
 >Curious.

Psychosis #5224: Abduction by aliens. A disorder characterized
by belief that one has experienced a period of missing time
within which alien lifeforms examine your body and mind followed
by a compulsion to tell others of these experiences with the
objective of finding a rational answer. (Note: also suffering
from psychological trauma induced by scoffing disbelievers who
often claim "its just hypnogogic hallucination")!

Ha! Will that fit the bill for an entry in the Encyclopedia of
Abnormal Psychology?

 >All these folks, from all over the world Bob, _all_ reporting
 >the _same_ details - symptoms to you Bob :) Yet the mental
 >health community has _completely_ ignored it. Ya think that
 >maybe they already know that these people - abductees - are
 >_not_ suffering from any major 'mental health' issues? With
 >exceptions I'm sure. And that _that_ knowledge is the reason
 >why it has not been addressed by them as a body?

Ahh, symptoms. Vill you please relax on my couch and describe
your symptoms? Then ve vill propose a cure.

Hmmm, how did those strange triangles appear on your skin?

 >When the reality of UFOs and their occupants becomes common
 >knowledge... worlds will explode.

Whoa, let's not go too far here with the imagery.

 >The shattering of world views will have the most devastating
 >effect among those who cling to their beliefs as if they were
 >carved in Krell metal. When the time comes, and it _will_ come,
 >they will need comforting and understanding beyond measure.
 >Imagine for just a moment what a humbling and truly educational
 >experience it would be to receive comfort, understanding and
 >help from the very people you have been routinely dismissing and
 >insulting -without second thought- for so many years.

 >Be more open-minded Bob. Not gullable mind you, just more open
 >minded. Willing to keep certain questions open until _all_ the
 >evidence is in. It wouldn't hurt, and hey, you may _really_ need
 >us some day. :)

An open mind doesn't really hurt. Neither does a little cosmic
good humor. :)


Bill Hamilton








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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:29:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:08:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:00:55 EDT
 >Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >Errol:

 >Could you please post this response from Robert Sheaffer to
 >Wendy Connor's recent posting? Thanks.

...Brought your big brother in to fight your battle for you?
Heh. It's really only evidence how desperate you and he are
regarding the crumbling foundations of your bogus reality. I'll
cross your toe-drawn line.

 >Bob Young
 >--------

 >From: Robert Sheaffer <robert@debunker.com>
 >To: YoungBob2@aol.com
 >Date: 6/5/2002 3:02:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
 >Subj: The Illegitimacy of Wendy Connors' Arguments

 >Wendy Connors claims that CSICOP is "illegitimate," and cites
 >some comments that I made (apparently a very long time ago - she
 >doesn't even cite the source) to try to justify this silliness.

Oh ,but she will I think, Mr. Sheaffer, but forget that. George
Bush (senior) did something stupid once and remarked that if it
wasn't caught on tape, he didn't do it. In your preceding
statement you seem to pretend that you (may) have no knowledge
of saying what has been reported you said. Have no fear, your
gaffe will be cited as Georges was. Most will be informed that
you did something stupid, and by extension, continue to do so.


 >I don't want to spend very much time on such lame stuff, for
 >obvious reasons, so I'll make only a few points:

Well - that's CSICOPs whole problem in a nut shell, isn't it!
Quick with a blithe dismissal and an airy ridicule, your pointed
finger of empty accusation points three fingers of truth back at
a specious "self," - lame, lamer, and lamest.

 >Wendy angrily says that "None of these people [the National
 >Enquirer Blue-Ribbon Panel] are ever named by the CSICOP cult
 >because this blue ribbon panel does not exist." If she had been
 >in UFOlogy as long as some of us have, she would know that it
 >**did** exist - about 25 years ago. (Which shows how far back
 >she had to go to find something to stir up this much
animosity.)

Oh - I see. Then you _do_ remember saying something stupid,
after all. And I'm reasonably sure the blue ribbon panel did
exist, probably until the individual members copped to CSICOPS
canted agenda and moved off in distaste because their
consciences were offended. And as to animosity? Well - what
would you expect as an eventual reaction to us becoming aware of
the strangulation you perform as you cinch the drawstring of the
bag you would slip over our heads. You've gotten off LIGHT, in
my estimation. Your grace is about at an end.

 >And the panel was a very Big Deal at the time. So this argument
 >reveals nothing more than her own ignorance.

Yeah, Yeah. ...But what happened to the panel, and why don't you
talk about who they are/were? Additionally, if you really
thought she was as ignorant as you would have us believe, you
wouldn't even be responding to her here.

 >If she had read my
 >book "UFO Sightings," she would have learned about this Blue-
 >Ribbon panel.

Wasn't that the book where you unctuously propose by way of
specious intimation that UFOs are mere sightings of Venus, Mr.
Sheaffer? Jimmy Carter (past president, nuclear engineer, Naval
Officer [and so at LEAST an amateur astronomer...]) and I laugh
at your soggy-bottomed presumption.

 >Wendy: if you're going to write some very sweeping
 >criticism of somebody, it's a good idea to read their books
 >first. Otherwise you will look like a fool.

It's the fool who's read your book, Mr. Sheaffer, or at least
someone who is irritated at having their time so egregiously
wasted. But if she knows about some of the ancient stupidities
you have uttered then I am willing to bet that she has at
_least_ _skimmed_ your tiresome tome. Ya' think? Moreover, your
baseless pronouncement that she has not read your book does not
make it so, but baseless pronouncements are the CSICOPians stock
in trade, so I'm less than surprised.

 >"By Shaeffer's own admission the CSICOPs cult doesn't do field
 >investigation of cases. They only opine and call it science."

 >This shows nothing more than Wendy's problems with reading
 >comprehension (as well as spelling).

There's the last refuge of the losing scoundrel, Mr. Sheaffer.
Assuming the roll of the grammar-nazi when words otherwise fail
you, you're plagued with the weakness of your specious riposte,
and you are saddled with a world view more invalid with each
passing day. Moreover, you misspelled "criticizing" later on in
the piece indicating _your_ lack of comprehension, Mr. Sheaffer?
What's gravy for the goose is gravy for the gander, after all. I
mean - you'd be consistent ...wouldn't you?

 >The quotation she is
 >objecting to is "As far as whether there are any genuine
 >unexplainable cases... obviously nobody has time to look at all
 >the UFO reports that have ever been made.

Ironically? You and yours are part of the reason why the attempt
shall not be made! Anyone capable of the MEANEST objectivity
knows that genuinely unexplained cases hover around 20% of the
cases already WEANED from prosaic explanations. This is _well_
known and has been for many years, Mr. Sheaffer. Please deny it
and so demonstrate, then, the ponderous magnitude of your canted
bias.

 >There are just
 >thousands of them and if anyone says they have investigated all
 >of them, obviously they are way off base." This statement is, I
 >submit, perfectly unobjectionable.

Even if the speaker's orientation _is_? No... once burned, twice
shy and your BIC is always flicking!

 >We can all agree that nobody
 >has ever looked at ALL of the many thousands of UFO reports, and
 >indeed, nobody ever will.

That's YOUR fault, Mr. Sheaffer. I'll bet you're proud.

 >Apparently Wendy thinks that 'CSICOP
 >has not examined all cases' is equivalent to 'CSICOP has
 >examined no cases.' Duh.

No. She is saying, as other credible persons have pointed out,
that Robert Sheaffer "only tends to look at the "evidence" which
supports Robert Sheaffer's anti-UFO conclusions" not to put too
fine a point on it. Venus is not the beginning and ending of our
ufological provenance, Mr. Sheaffer. You do us all a colossal
disservice to pretend that it is.

 >To my statement "But, we've looked at what has been pronounced,
 >not by ourselves but the UFO believers, to be the cream of the
 >crop and we haven't found anything in the supposed cream of the
 >crop, that causes us to be wrong that there is something
 >unexplainable here"

Rest assured that there are none of us out here surprised by
_that_, Mr. Sheaffer.

 >[did she really transcribe that latter part
 >correctly?]

You'd know better than her, Mr. Sheaffer. Whatever _she_ typed,
the message from you and your equally myopic associates is well
known.

 >she replies: "Notice the complete lack of data or
 >documentation to back this CSICOP scientific assessment?".
 >Wendy, people do not generally cite reams of documentation in TV
 >interviews (which is what she appears to be quoting here - as I
 >said, I'm not familiar with the exact source).

No? Then caught short, why are you squirming?

Haven't Mr. Oberg, or Mr. Pflock been giving you lessons in
"plausible deniability."

 >However, if you take the trouble read the UFO books written by
 >myself, by Philip J. Klass, and by James Oberg [or even look at
 >their table of contents], >you would find critical examination
 >of cases such as: Travis Walton; Betty Hill; "astronaut UFOs"
 >including Gordon Cooper; Mexico City UFOs, and many, many other
 >"classic" cases. "An opinion is not science, no matter how
 >fervently CSICOP desires it to be." To claim that these and
 >other cases examined are not the 'cream of the crop' as
 >continuously cited by the UFO proponents themselves is simply
 >ignorant. Wendy appears to be following in the footsteps of the
 >celebrated Robert Anton Wilson by vehemently criticising the
 >authors of books she has not read, and an organization she
 >seems to know nothing about.

Knowing enough of your medieval organization is knowing too much
about what is truly bogus and not enough about what is truly
scientific. You're the problem Mr. Sheaffer, not the solution,
the oppressor of science, not the savior of science - the dark
and not the light. Moreover, the tighter you squeeze the more
of us slip through your fingers to see that your emperor is as
naked as hydrocephalic newborn. ...and you know it.

 >Robert Sheaffer - robert at debunker dot com -
 >Skeptical to the Max!

...an indictment, sir, not an attribute. And let me take this
opportunity to apologize in advance for any malformed
constructions, misspellings or malapropisms, Mr. Sheaffer,
forgetting that they are not really the point... are they?!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 6

               Re: North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:10:16 -0400
Subject: Re: North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: North American F-86 Sabre & Noel/Kirkwood
 >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:32:03 -0700

 >Hello, All, Bill,

 >http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p86.html

 >This is a website with all pertinent information on the F-86
 >including the disposition of all of the RF-86 (A&F) models.

 >Seems there were not many made, and the dispositon of the RF-
 >86A's were of particular note, ending up in the California ANG
 >by the late 50's. The units are named and the use/fate of the
 >aircraft. This should help in asking some questions of Mr.
 >Kirkwood/Noel. Both models had the cameras mounted in a
 >particular way, some were armed some were not.

Thanks GT and I just added this to my military links. The only
airplane I ever flew was a Piper Commanche, but I assembled
every plastic model I could get my hands on when I was a kid and
knew all the specs. Growing up in the time of the Sabre jet made
it special to me and will not forget those movie scenes of dog
fights between F86s and Mig 15s.

Haven't been able to reach Guy yet at his home number but will
keep trying and see what he says.

-Bill







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              Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:19:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:01:33 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Friedman


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

<snip>

 >>Three points I'd like to make here if I may.

 >>1. You mentioned 'debunker' a few times in your posts. I hope
 >>you are not implying I am a 'debunker' simply because I don't
 >>happen to agree with your chosen methods.

 >No, I don't know about your views and UFO-related work at all.

 >Debunkers are the guys who say interstellar travel is impossible
 >because nobody can travel faster than light, ignoring the fact
 >that humankind does not know everything there is to know about
 >physics.  And do so at the _end_ of every UFO documentary or
 >news item, which seems to be the only format the media is
 >willing to use.

Don't forget that at 99.9% of the speed of light it only takes
20 months, pilot time, to go a distance of 37 Light Years
(Distance to Zeta Reticuli) .At 99.99% of the speed of light it
only takes 6months to go a distance of 37 light years. Go out
and come back and marry your grand child's best friend. The gift
of immortality. No reason to assume they come here from home
base each time. I once did 25 lectures in 35 days in 15 states
without being home at all in the interim.

<snip>

 >I haven't heard of any extended picketing for release of UFO
 >information, so it probably hasn't been tried.  Personally, I'd
 >guess it might take a year of picketing in a well chosen spot to
 >budge even those members of government who are in favour of
 >releasing the files.  Including bad weather days.

There have been incidents of UFO picketing in DC. Elaine Douglas
and the Right to Know group did it. Got some CNN coverage.

Frankly, I think trying to get any of the major media to spend
1/10 what was spent on Monica Lewinsky, Elian Gonzalez, Gary
Condit would be more productive. On the other hand I am not at
all in favor of releasing all classified info we have gleaned
from measurments of the flight characteristics and from careful
evaluation of flying saucer wreckage.Why put advanced technical
data out on the table for the Husseins and Osamas of the
world.One can't tell ones friends without telling ones enemies.
Breaking open the Cosmic Watergate is one thing. Handing out
very advanced technology is quite something else. One of the
many problems with what Greer is doing is that he doesn't seem
to have any real understanding of security. But then the SETI
Cultists don't either.I do think I will join the SETI League
which includes SETV among its goals. (Search for
Extraterrestrial Visitations)

 >I'm saying here that the importance of the issue deserves
 >extreme effort, in light of what 50+  years of waiting has not
 >produced.

I think the very wide acceptance of UFO reality and new thinking
about government cover-ups have been real achievments. As  has
been noted before, I have had only 11 hecklers after over 700
lectures and I come on very strong.  Come on out to Roswell for
July 6 .My talk will be "Critiquing the Roswell Critics". Or
tune in to the Canadian Cable TV SPACE Channel on Wednesday,
June 19, 8PM, EDT, 9PM in the Maritime provinces and 9:30 in
Newfoundland for "Stanton T. Friedman IS Real" including
comments from Kevin Randle and Karl Pflock.


Stan Friedman


www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html








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                   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:23:08 -500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:03:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Hutchinson


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:09:13 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

<snip>

 >BTW, Bob. I love the little kid type
 >running to daddy you did. Cute.

Wendy

It is a shame that an investigator of your status feels she must
resort to petulant ad homium attacks like this. It only
denigrates your position, and quite frankly, creates the
impression that your position on CSICOP may be based more on
jealousy than a difference of opinion- no matter how polar those
opinions are.

Bob Young did nothing more than what is appropriate - seek out
the person you quoted and acquire from him a comment. You
scathingly rebuke skeptics/debunkers for not seeking out
sources. Bob does that, and gets from you in return a totally
unprofessional taunt.

I do not know what your objectives are in this series, but if it
is to sway other's opinions about CSICOP and demonstrate your
professional qualifications as an investigator, your post set
those efforts back several notches.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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               Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:30:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:06:44 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Randle


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

 >I haven't heard of any extended picketing for release of UFO
 >information, so it probably hasn't been tried.  Personally, I'd
 >guess it might take a year of picketing in a well chosen spot to
 >budge even those members of government who are in favour of
 >releasing the files.  Including bad weather days.

Operation Right to Know picketed all the time and it did little
good. The media, when they covered the picketing, always
searched for, and found, the lunatic. All the good work done by
ORTK was undone by the woman who had "manifested herself on
sixteen alien ships."

We continue to follow the same paths, doing the same things and
wondering why they don't work.


KRandle








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                       Bryant FOIA Request - 06-06-02

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 14:46:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:21:19 -0400
Subject: Bryant FOIA Request - 06-06-02


To: history@state.gov, library@state.gov, secretary@state.gov,
        foia@state.gov

TO:  Secretary of State
      ATTN:  Freedom of Information Manager (A/RPS/IPS,SA-2)
      U. S. Department of State
      2201 C Street, N.W.
      Washington, DC  20522

FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
        3518 Martha Custis Drive
        Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  June 6, 2002


Word has come to me that, on Oct. 26, 2001, certain FOIA
officials at the U. S. National Archives and Records
Administration forwarded to your department, for
declassification review, the full content (with its related
tabbed enclosures) of the attached Intelligence Advisory Board
memorandum of July 17, 1947.

Accordingly, in the interest of determining the current status,
the cumulative results, and the political ramifications of that
review, I hereby submit the following freedom-of-information
request that you photo-copy the entire contents of your
declassification-review case file on the sought-for records, and
that you send the photo-copy to me as soon as possible -- said
contents to include all State Department-generated and State
Department-received records such as as intra-/inter-agency
correspondence, minutes of meetings, records-review tasking
documents, document/data-transmittal slips (including fax-header
sheets), memoranda for record, records-review/declassification
SOP's, memoranda of telephone conversations, e-mail messages,
briefing charts/outlines/talking points, legal opinions,
administrative blank-form entries, personnel-interview
transcripts, mail-address lists (including e-addresses),
temporary-duty reports, and records-storage/lending logs.

3. Since I make this request on behalf of the public's interest
in knowing all the behind-the-scenes activity and information
pertaining to your development and processing of the referenced
case file, I ask that you waive all records-search fees incident
to your fulfillment of this request.



LARRY W. BRYANT
Director, Washington, D.C., Office of
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq.

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief of http://www.ufocity.com

Ryan S. Wood, Chief Researcher for http://www.majesticdocuments.com

P.S.:  A hard-copy of this e-message-formatted letter (with its
copy of the censored IAB memo) will be snail-mailed to you
shortly.










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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:04:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:24:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Lehmberg


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:23:08 -500
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:09:13 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 ><snip>

 >>BTW, Bob. I love the little kid type
 >>running to daddy you did. Cute.

 >Wendy

 >It is a shame that an investigator of your status feels she must
 >resort to petulant ad homium attacks like this. It only
 >denigrates your position, and quite frankly, creates the
 >impression that your position on CSICOP may be based more on
 >jealousy than a difference of opinion- no matter how polar
those
 >opinions are.

Stuff and nonsense, Mr. Hutchinson. Mr. Young thought he was
going to get the big gun and use him in the fray of the debate.
In as much as it pretty effectively backfired on him because
Robert Sheaffer's aggregate argument was so weak he still has to
pay the freight for invoking him.

 >Bob Young did nothing more than what is appropriate - seek out
 >the person you quoted and acquire from him a comment.

More stuff and nonsense, Mr. Hutchinson. Mr. Young was
deliberately insulting, did everything but call her a liar, and
was _far_ from merely inquisitive about a comment that the
commenter finally, although insipidly, admitted that he made!

 >You
 >scathingly rebuke skeptics/debunkers for not seeking out
 >sources. Bob does that, and gets from you in return a totally
 >unprofessional taunt.

Still _more_ stuff and nonsense. Even _if_ unprofessional (which
it was not) it was well deserved. Robert Sheaffer added
_nothing_ to the debate but ad hominum of his own - or maybe you
missed the comments regarding intelligence and competency. This
is forgetting Mr. Young's production of same. Scrape the scales
from _your_ eyes.

 >I do not know what your objectives are in this series, but if it
 >is to sway other's opinions about CSICOP and demonstrate your
 >professional qualifications as an investigator, your post set
 >those efforts back several notches.

Stuff and nonsense to the last... She's _advanced_ her cause,
engineered Robert Sheaffer out of his cloistered woodwork and
into UpDates for debate, and put a little more illumination on
an alleged and suspect 'bastion' of light -- CSICOP. We are
_well_ served!

Thank _YOU_, Ms. Conners!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:24:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:30:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:23:08 -500
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:09:13 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 ><snip>

 >>BTW, Bob. I love the little kid type
 >>running to daddy you did. Cute.

 >Wendy

 >It is a shame that an investigator of your status feels she must
 >resort to petulant ad homium attacks like this. It only
 >denigrates your position, and quite frankly, creates the
 >impression that your position on CSICOP may be based more on
 >jealousy than a difference of opinion- no matter how polar
 >those opinions are.

Not jealousy, Bruce. You are dead wrong. Not a difference of
opinion anymore either. Again, you're wrong. Denegration of my
position or status? Hardly. The field of Ufology is litered with
sheep and surrounded by egos. I think for myself, something the
CSICOP cult wishes people like me didn't do (and I'm sure some
Ufologists do too), because it interferes with their Third-
Reich-style agenda.

Do you really think I give a damn about a perceived status
position? I don't. Anyone who knows me either hates my guts or
appreciates what I contribute or at the least, can't figure out
what the hell is really going on. I really don't care, because
my contributions are laid bare for anyone to judge. Can't attack
my work, be CSICOPian and attack me. That's OK. I am the wicked
witch of Ufology and proud of it. Why? Because I don't give a
hoot about political correctness when it comes to the pond scum
that sucks the life from the freedom to think, research, believe
and dream and does so under the bogus guise of legitimate
science that the CSICOP Hive spews.

CSICOP acts like the pond scum. A bogus scientific organization,
Bruce. CSICOP proclaims legitimacy and constantly fails. I just
take a few minutes once in awhile to remind people who want to
research Ufology, without being crucified by these bottom
feeders, that the CSICOP Hive's garbage floats to the top and
suffocate the right of free thought.

The only thing I'm guilty of is doing is good research and
telling the truth. CSICOPians do nothing but opine, twist facts
and perform character assassinations in the name of bogus
science and claim legitimacy that it does not deserve or
demonstrates. CSICOP is not the savior of science. It is the
modern age reincarnation of the Spanish Inquisition. It is a
hive filled with those so-called scientists and professionals
who couldn't make the grade in real science...the mediocre,
which you find taking up space in all fields of endeavor.

 >Bob Young did nothing more than what is appropriate - seek out
 >the person you quoted and acquire from him a comment. You
 >scathingly rebuke skeptics/debunkers for not seeking out
 >sources. Bob does that, and gets from you in return a totally
 >unprofessional taunt.

A debunker that seeks out a fellow hive and cult member isn't
doing anyone a favor in regards to a legitimate source to
counter. He wasn't capable of defending the CSICOP
position...too much of a marshmellow with a mouth, to do so.
But, I understand that it was appropriate that he needed to run
to his father figures and whine that he doesn't like this wicked
witch impugning the CSICOP Cult. Btw, as far as CSICOPs
unprofessionalism, I don't need to act professionally in dealing
with it. Quid pro quo. I'm espousing my own opinion regarding
the fanaticism of CSICOP as I perceive it and that's freedom of
thought and expression. Like CSICOP, I will use professionalism
or acerbic, hatchet humor and taunts wherever I feel it is
appropriate to do so and which allows for the best understanding
of my position. I'm in the arena regarding a bogus, illegitimate
and downright fanatical cult. Choice of weapons I use in my
battle are my privilege.

 >I do not know what your objectives are in this series, but if it
 >is to sway other's opinions about CSICOP and demonstrate your
 >professional qualifications as an investigator, your post set
 >those efforts back several notches.

Oh, please. I don't care what others think of my persona, only
on the quality of my work and contributions. Ufology isn't a
popularity contest and I'm not in it to win a crown... for those
who know me, they know this to be true: that I'm only impressed
with their work and contributions and not their perceived
status. Ufology is a legitimate course of study and research and
the quality of work is what is important, not the personality of
the person doing it. Don't lecture me in the typical CSICOPian
manner. You waste your time.

Regards back,

Wendy Connors








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   Jun > Jun 6

                          Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:25:7 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:32:20 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:03:06 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:20 -0300

<snip>

Those who might wish to read the Guy Kirkwood/Mel Noel saga may
click on

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m29-017.shtml

Kirkwood can't exit the scene, but he keeps coming back every
few years. There is always a new corp of suckers for his
stories. There is indeed one born every minute.

Con-men are indeed convincing, that is their game.


Jan Aldrich








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:03:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:33:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:29:50 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:46:45 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 ><snip>

 >>(Man, it sickens me how much we don't know about how
 >>telepathy and other forms of connection, such as empathy
 >>and even feelings, work).

 >I've often wondered why researchers into a field as esoteric as
 >UFOs regularly seem (maybe I'm mistaken?) to ridicule ESP and
 >related classes of events on the air. Especially when so many
 >abductees report that ESP is the main or even only way aliens
 >communicate.


Hi Eleanor,

Maybe it's a case of the 'ridiculed' joining the 'ridiculers' in
hopes that no one will notice that they've changed sides. If you
can't beat em, join em, kind of mentality.  :)

Regards,

John Velez








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:20:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:35:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - White


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:27:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

<snip>

 >All these folks, from all over the world Bob, _all_ reporting
 >the _same_ details - symptoms to you Bob :)

I'm guessing you know what a computer spreadsheet is, John.
  It's a way to display data in a fixed number of labelled
columns across the top, and any number of 'records' or 'rows'
hanging vertically below those labelled headings.

Suppose you opened up a computer spreadsheet, and typed in as
labels for the columns, leftmost "Case ID", then numerically
label a bunch of columns like this:

Det    Det    Det  ....
  1        2         3   ...

Across the top you'd enter a text area with the definitions
of each Detail 1, Detail 2, Detail 3 column.

For example:

Detail 1:   Abducted while sleeping
Detail 2:   Other(s) in bedroom not awakened
Detail 3:   Passed thru wall or closed window on exit
...

Then, you take a large bunch of your cases, and type their Case
ID whatever that may be - often a fixed length code hashed from
a first name, initial, maybe city, etc. which does not reveal
the true ID but does allow you to uniquely specify each case in
your records, into the left hand column, one row per case.

Finally, for each case, you type a "Y" into a detail column if
that case experienced that detail, otherwise  you could just
leave it blank for clear appearance's sake.

If you did this for what ... maybe 300 - 500 cases, you would
have a POWERFUL piece of evidence that illustrates better than
your statement above just how consistent across location and
across people who do not know each other, are these details.

This is what can be done using simple database procedures and
provide you with a real debunker-conversation-stopper in return
for the time and work.

This could be printed in tiny font for hard copy distribution at
UFO conventions, for example, or given to media, or posted on a
web site.

And of course, someone you trust who is willing could do this
for you, freeing you for other less repetitive things.

And a computer spreadsheet can be exported in forms that can
also be used by other software and researchers.

You have put a lot of work into gathering your data - now make
it work for you!


Eleanor White








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                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:19:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:38:03 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Velez


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

 >>>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:56:22 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 ><snip>

 >>>Until regular, no-debunker-follow-on stories are provided to the
 >>>public over time, then the media can't claim to have tried this
 >>>and found it not to work.

 >>Three points I'd like to make here if I may.
 >
 >>1. You mentioned 'debunker' a few times in your posts. I hope
 >>you are not implying I am a 'debunker' simply because I don't
 >>happen to agree with your chosen methods.

 >No, I don't know about your views and UFO-related work at all.

 >Debunkers are the guys who say interstellar travel is impossible
 >because nobody can travel faster than light, ignoring the fact
 >that humankind does not know everything there is to know about
 >physics. And do so at the _end_ of every UFO documentary or
 >news item, which seems to be the only format the media is
 >willing to use.

 >>2. I've noticed in other posts you favour pickets, I take it you
 >>mean demonstrations with supporters carrying banners and
 >>placards. After all how else would 'they' know what you are
 >>demonstrating about? Since you thought my 'Dear Government'
 >>comment was silly I'd be interested to know the sort of thing
 >>you may plan to write on your banners and placards.

 >RELEASE ALL UFO FILES
 >TO THE PUBLIC WHO
 >RIGHTLY OWNS THEM

 >Since weatherproof vinyl signs would be required, I'd also
 >graphically place that text on top of a greyed background image
 >of the cover of an IRS form 1040 and have it professionally
 >printed by a sign shop. The 1040 would be just slightly tilted
 >off vertical to emphasize it without swamping the large red,
 >bold faced lettering.

 >>3. I do understand what you're trying to do, rally the troops,
 >>battle cry, all that sort of thing.

 >It's the only way I can think of to get past both the government
 >and media denial and ridicule, with at least some hope of
 >motivating interested members of the public to demand answers.
 >Waiting for more elegant methods hasn't worked for half a
 >century.

 >>John Velez made a simple request to get folk to sign a petition:

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition/

 >>It's been an uphill struggle to get a reasonable response.

 >A continuously manned picket site is also an uphill struggle,
 >and it's tragic that Greer supporters didn't do that around the
 >time of the May 10, 2001 press conference. But if you want a
 >result, you have to put in the necessary work to bring it about.

 >I haven't heard of any extended picketing for release of UFO
 >information, so it probably hasn't been tried. Personally, I'd
 >guess it might take a year of picketing in a well chosen spot to
 >budge even those members of government who are in favour of
 >releasing the files. Including bad weather days.

 >I'm saying here that the importance of the issue deserves
 >extreme effort, in light of what 50+ years of waiting has not
 >produced.


Hi Eleanor,

The day those kids were killed by the National Guard at Kent
State University 'picketing' as a viable means of accomplishing
anything gradually went the way of the Dodo. There is a clear
demarkation point between the size and kind of demonstrations
and picketing that was done prior to, and then after, the
incident at Kent State. Whether by design or not, Kent State was
an accident waiting to happen. At that point in time all you had
to do was mix certain elements and you could predict with some
degree of accuracy what the outcome of the alchemy would be.

Whether by accident or design, the incident at Kent State sent a
clear and unmistakable message to the people. Absolute power
corrupts absolutely. The day National guardsmen gunned down
those college kids while peacefully demonstrating on their own
campus, a lot of steam was taken out of the growing activist
movement in this country.

As many folks old enough to remember will tell you, things got
pretty ugly in this country for many years. People were so
pissed and frustrated they started burning cities down. (Watts,
Newark, Chicago etc.) The 'Law & Order' Right Wing backlash
caused righteous fear to replace the fervor of commitment in the
hearts of many. Can't say as I blame em all either.

How many 'causes' are you willing to die for?

Best of luck.

regards,

John Velez, Life-long 'activist'








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:34:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:39:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Reed Hall <Tanaleaf9@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:54:27 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >>Subject: Fewer Abductions?

 >>Have the 'Bugs' finally collected enough human DNA??

 >>Are the "aliens" through with us?

 >>Has 'Phase Two' of whatever the hell it is 'They' are up to
 >>been completed/accomplished?

 ><snip>

 >>So what does it all mean? Anything that follows must of
 >>necessity be pure speculation, but we _can_ make some
 >>intelligent guesses as to what may be happening.

 ><snip>

Hi Reed,

I wrote:

 >>the number of reports are way down. What I do know is; they
 >>_are_ down and that that means something. Possibly something
 >>important.

You responded:

 >Endgame, perhaps? If Phase Two is completed, is there a Phase
 >Three, now imminent?

 >If indeed the incidences of abduction events are on the wane,
 >one obvious possible interpretation which springs to mind is
 >that they're just about finished with whatever it is they've
 >been up to thus far.

That's a perfectly logical and easy conclusion to jump to. It's
just so hard to speculate about 'other possibilities' because we
know so very little to begin with. Again, the lack of proper
investigation and follow-up rears its ugly head and clearly
shows the price we pay in ignorance because of the apathy and
politics of the institutions we rely on to look into these
matters for us/on our behalf. (Academic research institutions,
medical researchers, law enforcement, etc.)

Not to mention the fact that experiencers/contactees still have
no one and no place they can turn to for _responsible_ help. We
deal with issues that would drive others completely mad. The
only thing most people can look forward to in terms of 'getting
help' will be to run into _opportunists_ that will exploit them
for their own selfish purposes. There are many more Sinners than
Saints in this business. Landsharks disguised as lambs. Users.
Please excuse the digression.

 >What popped into my own head, as I read John Velez's post, was
 >the following passage from David Jacobs' "The Threat":

 >"As if to reaffirm their plan, when aliens talk about the
 >future, they do not say what most abductees and researchers want
 >them to say: 'Soon we will be gone. Our program is at an end.
 >Thank you for your help. Once we leave no one will be sure we
 >were ever here.' This is _never_ stated. The future for the
 >aliens and hybrids is always a future on Earth where they will
 >be integrated with humans. They offer no other possibility."
 >(p. 253, hardbound edition)

 >Certainly there are other "takes" on the ultimate nature,
 >meaning, and significance of the abduction phenom. But this is
 >one "take" which has a great deal of evidence going for it, it
 >seems, and is at least worth considering. It's one possible,
 >perhaps speculative (but not altogether uninformed or
 >unintelligent) guess as to what may be happening -- especially
 >if it's true that abductions are currently tapering off. Food
 >for thought, FWIW.

Well said. But bear in mind that this interpretation of the
material is David's. It may have seemed like an inevitable
conclusion to arrive at for him, and it may in fact be the case
that no other conclusion can be reached, but some one else may
view the same material differently (put it through a different
set of filters) and arrive at a whole other set of conclusions.

Yes, David speaks with the authority granted him by years of
working with this particular 'population.' But for the most part
conclusions are best arrived at by each individual as they weigh
and consider all the available information and possibilities.

It's much better if we each do our own homework and arrive at
our own 'logical' conclusions. It's a hop, skip and-a-jump from
there to consensus. But first, we each need to have a good
handle on what 'we think' is going on.


Enjoyed your input.  :)

John Velez








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:44:31 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:15:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

<snip>

 >>>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle

<snip>

 >>>>It seems amazing that suddenly Guy Kirkwood comes up with a
 >>>>DD214 even though Linda Howe gave him plenty of time to do so a
 >>>>few years back after we had a big session at the Hilton Hotel in
 >>>>LA with Guy.His first excuse was that it was in a box that fell
 >>>>off the truck when he moved. Another extension ; no form. He
 >>>>also claimed to have flown DC-8s for United, but could not
 >>>>provide a copy of his card for the Airline Pilots Association
 >>>>though he claimed membership.They didn't have him listed under
 >>>>any of the 3 names he has used. I checked the FAA for his pilot
 >>>>credentials. He was cleared for single engine aircraft. The DC8
 >>>>has 4 big ones. He claimed to have graduated from Cheshire
 >>>>Academy.I checked with them, he had only attended for a few
 >>>>months and no graduation.There was also a letter from the Air
 >>>>Force denying that anybody by any of his names had been an Air
 >>>>Force pilot. His story about what happened (being threatened by
 >>>>a supposed CIA agent brother of the host,Bob Dornan,) on a TV
 >>>>show when he was exposed, was a flat out lie. I would suggest he
 >>>>is a consumate con-man.That is a left handed compliment.

 >>Not amazing at all. He had already said that it was buried in
 >>boxes in storage and after a lot of urging he finally went
 >>through those boxes and found his records.

 >This strikes me as a load of crap. I know no former military
 >people who couldn't put their hands on their DD 214s in just a
 >couple of minutes.

Kevin, you seem to be full of yourself. He had moved residence
and like me had it in storage.

 >For one thing many of us carry a copy in our wallets.

An 8.5 x 11 paper? The one I carry in my wallet is a DD Form 217
AF. Why would anyone carry a full page in their wallet?

 >For another many states provide benefits to veterans that
 >require the DD 214.

 >If you asked me, I could have pulled one from my wallet, and I
 >have copies of all the others from the various points of my
 >military service.

I would like to see the one in your wallet sometime.

Just another thought.

Bill








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                          Beware "Unknown Unknowns"

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:44:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:45:43 -0400
Subject: Beware "Unknown Unknowns"


Rumsfeld: NATO Threatened by 'Unknown Unknowns'

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld baffled
NATO allies and journalists alike on Thursday by saying the
greatest threats to Western civilization may lurk in "unknown
unknowns."

Rumsfeld was defending Washington's view that the United States
and its allies could not wait for "absolute proof" before taking
action against groups and states suspected of acquiring weapons
of mass destruction.

"The message is that there are no knowns. There are things we
know that we know. There are known unknowns, that is to say
there are things we now know we don't know. But there are also
unknown unknowns -- things we do not know we don't know."

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=politicsnews&StoryID=1058803\








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                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:53:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:55:44 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:19:17 -0300
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

 ><snip>

 >>>Three points I'd like to make here if I may.

 >>>1. You mentioned 'debunker' a few times in your posts. I hope
 >>>you are not implying I am a 'debunker' simply because I don't
 >>>happen to agree with your chosen methods.

 >>No, I don't know about your views and UFO-related work at all.

 >>Debunkers are the guys who say interstellar travel is impossible
 >>because nobody can travel faster than light, ignoring the fact
 >>that humankind does not know everything there is to know about
 >>physics. And do so at the _end_ of every UFO documentary or
 >>news item, which seems to be the only format the media is
 >>willing to use.

 >Don't forget that at 99.9% of the speed of light it only takes
 >20 months, pilot time, to go a distance of 37 Light Years
 >(Distance to Zeta Reticuli) .At 99.99% of the speed of light it
 >only takes 6months to go a distance of 37 light years. Go out
 >and come back and marry your grand child's best friend. The gift
 >of immortality. No reason to assume they come here from home
 >base each time. I once did 25 lectures in 35 days in 15 states
 >without being home at all in the interim.

I'm only an engineer, not a physicist, but the eye-popping
things being discussed by the theory guys tell me that it is
likely, (not certain I admit,) that other-dimensional travel
will completely end run around any number of light years.

(That is strictly opinion, based on the number of times science
has said "can't be done" only to have it done in time.)

I'd be happy if the naysayers changed from "impossible" to "may
or may not be possible".

 ><snip>

 >>I haven't heard of any extended picketing for release of UFO
 >>information, so it probably hasn't been tried. Personally, I'd
 >>guess it might take a year of picketing in a well chosen spot to
 >>budge even those members of government who are in favour of
 >>releasing the files. Including bad weather days.

 >There have been incidents of UFO picketing in DC. Elaine Douglas
 >and the Right to Know group did it. Got some CNN coverage.

Right. Forgot about that. Needs repeating. Some years ago I
asked Elaine Douglass if any of her colleagues might be
interested in starting up again. She said no.

 >Frankly, I think trying to get any of the major media to spend
 >1/10 what was spent on Monica Lewinsky, Elian Gonzalez, Gary
 >Condit would be more productive.

Doggedly determined picketing might accomplish that. I can't
think of much else that would, given the not-often-stated but
overwhemingly-hinted-at censorship that passes between owners
and top managers, and working level journalists. By that I mean,
a brief snicker or facial expression or even body position can
censor as effectively as an official memo.

Picketing with the feeling portrayed by James Stewart in the
movie as a crusading filibustering senator - was it "Mr. Smith
Goes to Washington"? That's what's needed in this day and age.

 >On the other hand I am not at
 >all in favor of releasing all classified info we have gleaned
 >from measurments of the flight characteristics and from careful
 >evaluation of flying saucer wreckage.Why put advanced technical
 >data out on the table for the Husseins and Osamas of the
 >world.

Not enough room to explain all that on a picket sign, Dr.
Friedman - I agree with you and if I were a UFO picketer, I
would be more than happy to simply have the existence, and lay-
person-understandable main craft capabilities released.

 >One can't tell ones friends without telling ones enemies.
 >Breaking open the Cosmic Watergate is one thing. Handing out
 >very advanced technology is quite something else. One of the
 >many problems with what Greer is doing is that he doesn't seem
 >to have any real understanding of security. But then the SETI
 >Cultists don't either.I do think I will join the SETI League
 >which includes SETV among its goals. (Search for
 >Extraterrestrial Visitations)

I agree - no need to publish enough so a backyard experimenter
can build his own personal UFO.

 >>I'm saying here that the importance of the issue deserves
 >>extreme effort, in light of what 50+ years of waiting has not
 >>produced.

 >I think the very wide acceptance of UFO reality and new thinking
 >about government cover-ups have been real achievments. As has
 >been noted before, I have had only 11 hecklers after over 700
 >lectures and I come on very strong.

Interesting and encouraging - my other group is working for a
similar disclosure, and hecklers are practically non-existent in
the formal lectures, and relatively rare on the street picket
sites. That's what UFO folks need to realize - times have really
changed, and activism now has a chance to accomplish something
positive. Approaching the "engraved invitation" state, even.

 >Come on out to Roswell for
 >July 6 .My talk will be "Critiquing the Roswell Critics". Or
 >tune in to the Canadian Cable TV SPACE Channel on Wednesday,
 >June 19, 8PM, EDT, 9PM in the Maritime provinces and 9:30 in
 >Newfoundland for "Stanton T. Friedman IS Real" including
 >comments from Kevin Randle and Karl Pflock.

I'd love to, but all time and resources must go to my other
cause. Thanks for the info on the TV appearances. I've been a
great admirer of yours since I first heard you speaking about
the importance of getting the most basic information right, like
the correct name of the county!


Eleanor White








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                Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:08:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:57:55 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - White


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:30:39 EDT
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 ><snip>

 >>I haven't heard of any extended picketing for release of UFO
 >>information, so it probably hasn't been tried. Personally, I'd
 >>guess it might take a year of picketing in a well chosen spot to
 >>budge even those members of government who are in favour of
 >>releasing the files. Including bad weather days.

 >Operation Right to Know picketed all the time and it did little
 >good. The media, when they covered the picketing, always
 >searched for, and found, the lunatic. All the good work done by
 >ORTK was undone by the woman who had "manifested herself on
 >sixteen alien ships."

With due respect, Mr. Randle, I've lived a while and have some
idea how human beings think. I don't think "All" the good work
was undone by some kook, (who was likely a disinformation plant
if the full truth were known.)

The reason we have juries is that in spite of all human
shortcomings, they can often see through nonsensical proceedings
in the courtroom and deliver a just verdict. In the same way,
the UFO-following public was not likely swayed very much by such
a stunt.

Elaine Douglass' efforts will not be in vain if someone else
picks up where she left off. Like rocking a car out of a snow
bank, pushing, backing off, then pushing again can get the job
done, even if flooring the accelerator won't.

 >We continue to follow the same paths, doing the same things and
 >wondering why they don't work.

Elaine Douglass' picketing is not a very well trodden path.

With government cover ups in general finding their way into
media speculation, this is probably a good time to get some
signs up.


Eleanor White








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:23:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:00:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:27:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:33:51 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 ><snip>

 >>>Then, of course, there is the cultural hypothesis: times, they
 >>>are a changing, and the idea is fading.

 >>Hola Young Bob,

 >>When the truth of the existence of the UFOs and their occupants
 >>(finally) becomes common knowledge, some people are going to
 >>suffer over it more than others. I guess giving the other guy the
 >>benefit of the doubt (keeping an open mind) is passe and something
 >>that went out with the horse and buggy.

Hi Bill, hi All,

Ghod help all you Listers out there. I'm home recovering from an
operation and I have all this time on my hands. I hope that
explains the number and length of my recent posts. You've been
warned. :)

Bill, you wrote:

 >Hey, John, I am already suffering over it, suffering from all
 >these comments, opinions, and attitudes. Guess you and I are in
 >that slightly different category of experiencers.

I don't know about 'different category' but I sure as Hell am
tired of fighting an all uphill battle. The only thing that
keeps me going is; I still have hope for us all. If it wasn't
for that I'd be outta here faster than you could say, 'Betty
Hill!'  :)

 >>(If) this is all a cultural or psychological phenomena then you
 >>should all be quaking in your boots. If it can 'infect' the
 >>number of perfectly sane people that it has, then what makes you
 >>so smug to think you are somehow immune from 'catching it'
 >>yourself? Any way you look at it, you cut your own throat each
 >>and every time you dismiss these thousands of _honest_ reports
 >>as mere psycho-fluff with no possibility of having any basis in
 >>reality.

 >Its the 'meme' phenomena. Consider the T-phage virus. A T-phage
 >cannot replicate itself; it reproduces by hijacking the DNA of a
 >bacterium, forcing its host to make millions of copies of the
 >phage.

 >Similarly, an idea can parasitically infect your mind and alter
 >your behavior, causing you to want to tell your friends about
 >the idea, thus exposing them to the idea-virus. Any idea which
 >does this is called a "meme" (pronounced 'meem').

 >Just think how we are spreading the UFO and alien memes on this
 >List and througout the Internet. My gosh, the whole world may
 >soon be infected!

Meem eh? Interesting concept. At this point I don't much care
'how' it getting through, as much as that it _is_ getting
through. Via 'meem' or otherwise. I don't know from "meems" and
I'm not seeking to sell any belief systems to anyone. What I do
know is; we all have a duty to our self, our families and to
others to stay the course. Regardless of the obstacles
encountered along the way. With the cold, certain and
unemotional conviction of a master martial artist we must all
stand our ground.

 >>If it is psycho-fluff... then please tell me why the mental
 >>health community has not acknowledged and addressed a phenomenon
 >>that is clearly manifest among a _significant_ number of people?
 >>World wide! They usually clamor to embrace anything they can
 >>throw Prozac or some other mood or mind altering chemical at,
 >>not to mention an opportunity to 'bill' for years of therapy.
 >>They continue to invent new 'disorders' daily but they have
 >>somehow not chosen to address one that is 'in their faces.'
 >>Curious.

 >Psychosis #5224: Abduction by aliens. A disorder characterized
 >by belief that one has experienced a period of missing time
 >within which alien lifeforms examine your body and mind followed
 >by a compulsion to tell others of these experiences with the
 >objective of finding a rational answer. (Note: also suffering
 >from psychological trauma induced by scoffing disbelievers who
 >often claim "its just hypnogogic hallucination")!

 >Ha! Will that fit the bill for an entry in the Encyclopedia of
 >Abnormal Psychology?

You'd think that it would have become a major topic of
discussion in the trade journals - at least. Not a peep. Maybe a
dismissive (and isolated) article skimming the surface of the
subject - at best. But no, nothing at all to speak of in terms
of the phenomenon getting the attention of the mental health
community. An odd, almost uncharacteristic response that I find
completely fascinating. If not revealing.

 >>All these folks, from all over the world Bob, _all_ reporting
 >>the _same_ details - symptoms to you Bob :) Yet the mental
 >>health community has _completely_ ignored it. Ya think that
 >>maybe they already know that these people - abductees - are
 >>_not_ suffering from any major 'mental health' issues? With
 >>exceptions I'm sure. And that _that_ knowledge is the reason
 >>why it has not been addressed by them as a body?

 >Ahh, symptoms. Vill you please relax on my couch and describe
 >your symptoms? Then ve vill propose a cure.

 >Hmmm, how did those strange triangles appear on your skin?

Physical marks and scars, certain chronic medical conditions,
ground trace and multiple witness cases need to be addressed. It
is insulting to us, and way too simplistic to write us all off
as suffering from some form of purely psychological disorder
without first defining that disorder.

If we're sick, then 'what' do we have?

 >>When the reality of UFOs and their occupants becomes common
 >>knowledge... worlds will explode.

 >Whoa, let's not go too far here with the imagery.

I should have added the qualifier 'inner' in front of the word
'worlds.' It would have made the statement clearer.  :)

 >>The shattering of world views will have the most devastating
 >>effect among those who cling to their beliefs as if they were
 >>carved in Krell metal. When the time comes, and it _will_ come,
 >>they will need comforting and understanding beyond measure.
 >>Imagine for just a moment what a humbling and truly educational
 >>experience it would be to receive comfort, understanding and
 >>help from the very people you have been routinely dismissing and
 >>insulting -without second thought- for so many years.

 >>Be more open-minded Bob. Not gullable mind you, just more open
 >>minded. Willing to keep certain questions open until _all_ the
 >>evidence is in. It wouldn't hurt, and hey, you may _really_ need
 >>us some day. :)

 >An open mind doesn't really hurt. Neither does a little cosmic
 >good humor. :)

Amen.

Warm regards to you and Mrs. H

John Velez








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                  Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Kenny Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:34:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:09:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Kenny Young


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:23:08 -500
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >Wendy

 >It is a shame that an investigator of your status feels she must
 >resort to petulant ad homium attacks like this. It only
 >denigrates your position, and quite frankly, creates the
 >impression that your position on CSICOP may be based more on
 >jealousy than a difference of opinion- no matter how polar those
 >opinions are.

 >Bob Young did nothing more than what is appropriate - seek out
 >the person you quoted and acquire from him a comment. You
 >scathingly rebuke skeptics/debunkers for not seeking out
 >sources. Bob does that, and gets from you in return a totally
 >unprofessional taunt.

 >I do not know what your objectives are in this series, but if it
 >is to sway other's opinions about CSICOP and demonstrate your
 >professional qualifications as an investigator, your post set
 >those efforts back several notches.


Bruce;

This has been a puzzling episode. While CSICOP is indeed a
deeply ideological enterprise steeped in agenda, likening it to
a cult is a bit off the deep end. Bob was also 'on target' by
seeking comment from Schaefer. The 'snot on the shirt-sleeve'
discourse is unfortunate and this childish dialogue is not
productive.


KY








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                     Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:02:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:25:35 -0400
Subject: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass


To the UFO Updates List:

This email was received by me on June 6, 2002. It is shared with
the readership and I answer it, here, on the UFO UpDates List:


Dear Wendy Connors:

Klass: In your recent 'Collective Mind of the CSICOP Cult', you
charged that CSICOP "is a cult of individuals whose commonality
and goal is to use any method under a twisted guise of science
to force a belief system THAT SCIENCE IS DAMAGED BY
INVESTIGATION OF PARANORMAL AVENUES and that people who engage
in such research are INHERENTLY DANGEROUS TO SOCIETY." (Emphasis
added.)

Connors: That is my expressed opinion. Why the need for
"Emphasis added?" It didn't need to be and denotes shouting in
computer netiquette. I am of the opinion that I must have
rattled your sensibilities that you felt the need to shout.
Email is a text-based forum. It has no volume control. But, go
ahead and rave on if you feel you must.

Klass: For more than 35 years, I have spent many thousands of
hours investigating dozens of UFO incidents--a prominent
paranormal phenomenon. And for nearly as long I have been a
member of CSICOP's Executive Council--which sets CSICOP policy.
Yet I have NEVER encountered any CSICOP policy or actions which
would confirm your accusation.

Connors: Having read your work regarding the field of Ufology, I
would disagree. You have spent over 35 years opining and
pretending you've investigated the phenomena of crypto-
aeronautics. Your so-called research is based upon ignoring the
raw data, failing to do field investigations and conviently
selecting bits and pieces of others work and effort to make a
case that is not scientific by any stretch of the imagination
and caused great harm to decent people who honestly look at the
phenomenon.

Connors: You have done so from the immediate position of the case
being anything but a prosaic explanation. In other words, you
have defaulted and deceived yourself more than bringing to light
anything of scientific substance dealing with the phenomena of
crypto-aeronautics. You engage in character assassination... re:
Dennis Balthaser and others. You've done so repeatedly when your
own sub-standard research has been questioned by competent
researchers and investigators. Your track record is an open book
on this point.

Connors: In reference to your being of the CSICOP cults exective
board and have set the policy for CSICOP I will offer this
personal observation. Big deal. Your hidden agenda as a cult is
to mute and castigate free thought and research, because it is
in some trumped up fashion, a violation of CSICOPian ideals. You
and your one-mind hive members go out of their way to discredit
anyone who may be interested in openly researching and
expressing their right of belief and personal understanding of
the world around them. People don't bow to the CSICOPian ideals
of scientific thought and they are smeared with such labels as,
"Believers, etc." Robert Shaeffer is on record as a CSICOP
member and provides ample proof of such labeling in an attempt
to discredit. These and other not-so-nice practices indeed prove
that CSICOP is a bogus scientific cult without any redeeming
social value.

Klass: I recall that a number of "pro-UFO" investigators have
accepted invitations to present their views at CSICOP
conferences, including Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Dr. John Mack, Dr.
Eddie Bullard, Donald Schmitt and Dr. Leo Sprinkle. (To my
knowledge, MUFON has never invited a "UFO-skeptic" to speak at
one of its annual conferences.)

Connors: And after being so generous you expect what? Donald
Schmitt is not a competent researcher and has lied about his
background. I've been with him on field research and observed
his methodology. Let's just say it's pretty much lacking in all
areas. He tries, but certainly doesn't engage in character
assassination or demeaning labeling. As to the others, each to
their own on as to why they would waste their time on a cult
that has already made up their minds. I'm not accountable for
anyone's periodic lapse in judgment. But, I would venture only a
guess that they were honorable people and thought that they
might be received objectively. However, something tells me they
never went back, even if invited. MUFON, by not inviting a "UFO-
  skeptic" to speak at one of its annual conferences tells me
that for once they did something right. However, I have photos
of you attending many UFO conferences, so it isn't like you were
maliciously turned away or abused for being there. I don't
understand this inspid point you make anyway.

Klass: Reference the Blue Ribbon Panel of UFO Experts, created
by the National Enquirer in the early 1970s, the names of its
five pro-UFO members are listed in Chapter 28 of my book "UFOs
Explained," publlshed by Random House in 1975.  (I volunteered
twice to serve on the panel without pay, but my offers were not
accepted.)

Connors: Well, if this is true, I may have to rethink my
position regarding the caliber of people putting out that odeous
rag.


Klass: Finally, I invite you to provide specific actions taken
by CSICOP which you find objectionable.

Sincerely,

Phil Klass


OK. I will. But remember you made the invitation Mr. Klass.

Ready UFO UpDate readers?

Here goes:

The MISAHA Newsletter (Monterey Institute for the Study of
Alternative Healing Arts) Edited by Savely Savaa, published the
following letter exchange he had with one of the Editors of
'Free Inquiry' magazine in the Jan-Dec 2001 issue of his
newsletter on page 28. 'Free Inquiry' is a magazine and
publication of the CSICOP cult.

Mr. Savaa prepared a paper dealing with alternative methods of
healing and thought that the CSICOPian magazine, with it's
respectable title of 'Free Inquiry', might be interesting and
sent an offer to exchange a copy of his newsletters for a copy
of 'Free Inquiry'. Following is quoted the actual reply Mr.
Savaa received from the CSICOPian editor:

"No thanks. Actually, one of the things we've learned through
inquiry is that there's no such thing as 'spirit', alternative
medicine is bunk, and people like you are the most repellent
sorts of con artists. Our sister publications, SKEPTICAL
INQUIRER and the SCIENTIFIC REVIEW OF ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE, have
done numerous exposes of your field. If we lived in a just
society you and all your quack colleagues would be in dungeons
somewhere, chained face-down to huge stone wheels and being
gang-raped on irregular schedules."

I rest my case Mr. Klass. My opinion hasn't changed. I still
believe CSICOP to be a cult that engages in psuedo-science and
is an illegitimate and bogus scientific organization that has
brought harm to legitimate science and leaves a legacy of
dishonesty in all that CSICOP professes to be. I truly believe
that if you had stayed with just being an aviation writer and
having the safety of being able to touch an airplane, rather
than venturing into a research area you were not qualified to
undertake and required you to be open in your mind to
contemplate the concepts of possibility and probability, you
would have stood a better chance of being loved and appreciated
by more than your like-minded cultists.

Consequently, I find you and your ilk irrelevant in all areas of
honorable scientific investigation. CSICOP is your baby, Mr.
Klass. You have the misfortune to have to live with what you
helped create. CSICOP Be Not Proud.


Wendy Connors








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                     Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:26:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:36:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:37:12 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >>>Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

<snip>

 >>You have deliberately changed, "front line", into "first hand",
 >>something which has an entirely different meaning.

 >First, I changed absolutely nothing. "front line" are his exact
 >words.

Maybe we should go over it, again, reading your words slowly. On
June 3rd on this list you wrote:

 >>>In other words CSICOP doesn't do first hand investigations.

 >By saying that I have deliberately changed his words,
 >then you are saying you know where the direct quote orignates,
 >which you obviously don't. Therefore, you don't know what you
 >are talking about.

Well, you failed to include any citation, or even a footnote to
indicate that eventually a citation would follow, so all anyone
could do is quote your words.

We could just save a lot of time so that we can get back to
investigating the UFO question if you would please provide the
complete paragraph and citation where,

 >>>Robert Shaeffer, a CSICOP Committee Member
 >>>demonstrates though his own words, that CSICOP is not
 >>>a scientific organization.

because it,

 >>>doesn't do first hand investigations.

Clear skies,
Bob Young

Expect no further word or sign
from me.
Your own will is whole,
upright, and free
and it would be wrong not to do
as it bids you,
therefore I crown and miter
you over yourself.

Virgil to the Pilgrim, facing the wall of purifying fire
Canto XXVII of Purgatorio






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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:15:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:26:11 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:15:49 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

<snip>


 >>For one thing many of us carry a copy in our wallets.

 >An 8.5 x 11 paper? The one I carry in my wallet is a DD Form 217
 >AF. Why would anyone carry a full page in their wallet?

  <snip>

 >I would like to see the one in your wallet sometime.

I folded it.

KRandle






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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Owens

From: Steve Owens <spidey@keepandbeararms.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:22:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:28:31 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Owens


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:15:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy

 >>Not amazing at all. He had already said that it was buried in
 >>boxes in storage and after a lot of urging he finally went
 >>through those boxes and found his records.

 >This strikes me as a load of crap. I know no former military
 >people who couldn't put their hands on their DD 214s in just a
 >couple of minutes.

 >For one thing many of us carry a copy in our wallets.
For another many states provide benefits to veterans that
 >require the DD 214.

 >I you asked me, I could have pulled one from my wallet, and I
 >have copies of all the others from the various points of my
 >military service.

 >I find it difficult to believe that our multi-named friend
 >couldn't produce a DD 214 with a little more ease than he
 >claimed.

I'm not going to say the man is or isn't telling the truth, but
it strikes me that different people keep records in different
ways.  If asked for a copy of my DD214 I would have to think
about which storage cabinet it is in and then I would have to
paw through my Air Force records to find it.  My Dad, who uses
VA resources on a regular basis, used to carry his in a folder
with the rest of his and my mother's medical records in a folder
any time they went to a military facility.  That stopped when
the VA started issuing a photo ID about five years ago.  Now, he
too would have to look for his DD214 and other records since he
doesn't carry them to military facilities.

So, now you know of at least two more people that can't get at
their DD214 without a bit of bother.  <g>

I think expecting the person to have instant or easy access to a
DD214 is, by itself, not evidence of anything except that the
person doesn't use military benefits often.

--
Spidey in Bama
"Let's Roll." -- Todd Beamer & President George W. Bush (43)








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                    Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:00:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:31:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Connors


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:26:52 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:36:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Young

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:37:12 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:20:22 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 07:36:18 -0600
 >>>>Subject: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

<snip>

 >Well, you failed to include any citation, or even a footnote to
 >indicate that eventually a citation would follow, so all anyone
 >could do is quote your words.


You must be the person Robert Shaeffer was actually referring to
regarding the inability to comprehend what you are reading. You
brought Mr. Shaeffer to the rescue, Bob. Didn't you understand
that he admitted the words were his in his defense of your
inability to handle the CSICOP discussion? Now, logically at
least, you don't need a citation. Mr. Shaeffer admitted he said
what I quoted.

You brought Mr. Shaeffer in and Mr. Klass has joined in too.
You're not going to be a good CSICOPian stooge by remaining
three steps behind the current discussion. Please try to keep
up.

Now, just so I won't be accused of running away with my tail
between my legs and CSICOP can falsely claim a triumph defeat of
my position, please be aware that tomorrow I am leaving on
vacation. I will be gone several weeks.


Wendy Connors






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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:33:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies


Roswell "Hieroglyph" Controversy
by Mac Tonnies

see http://mactonnies.com/ufos.html

In July, 1947, an excited Maj. Jesse Marcel awoke his wife and
son, Jesse Marcel, Jr., to view what he believed to be pieces
from a crashed "flying saucer." Marcel, Jr., now a doctor,
recreated the "glyphs" he saw along the inside of a seemingly
metallic I-beam. He describes the figures as being between a
quarter of an inch to a half an inch in width:

[image]

In later years, the Air Force advanced the hypothesis that the
debris scavenged by Maj. Marcel in 1947 was the remains of a
Project Mogul balloon train (essentially a weather balloon, but
equipped to detect acoustic effects in the upper atmosphere
caused by Russian atomic bomb testing). Project chief Charles
Moore recalls that the I-beams used were held together with
"novelty tape" that featured three-inch flower-like designs.
Asked to draw the Mogul designs, Moore produced the following:

[image]

The recreations above are drawn to scale. As noted by some
ufologists, the likeness is tenuous at best. If the designs
witnessed by Marcel weren't the designs described by Moore, then
it's plausible that the official explanation for them is in
error and that an unconventional aircraft of some sort indeed
crashed near Roswell in 1947.

Not long ago I read Gary Zukav's "The Dancing Wu Li Masters," an
introduction to quantum theory. While reading about electron
cloud density, I was startled to come across a series of
illustrations featuring designs extremely similar (and in at
least one case identical) to those recalled by Marcel. The
diagrams in question were taken from a textbook on quantum
physics, and represented various forms taken on by electron
clouds in hydrogen atoms.

I immediately wondered if there was a link between Marcel's I-
beam recreation and the hydrogen diagrams. If so, what were
quantum mechanical graphics doing in the New Mexico desert in
1947...?








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              Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:35:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Tonnies


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:02:51 -0600
 >Subject: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

 >To the UFO Updates List:

 >This email was received by me on June 6, 2002. It is shared with
 >the readership and I answer it, here, on the UFO UpDates List:

<snip>

Bravo! Articulate, informed, and dead-on accurate.

Thanks, Wendy, for the excellent piece.

Mac







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                    Re: Filer's Files #23 - 2002 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:04:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:37:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #23 - 2002 - Young


 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:54:09 EDT
 >Subject: Filer's Files #23 - 2002

 >FILER'S FILES #23-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >June 5, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
 >Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

<snip>

 >PENNSYLVANIA LIGHTS OVER DRIVE IN THEATER

 >EASTON: Sam Sherman reports, "On this past Saturday night, June
 >1, 2002, I was invited to be a guest at Becky's Drive In Theatre
 >for the World Drive-In Theatre premiere "Drive-In Movie
 >Memories," by Don and Susan Sanders. As a longtime producer of
 >films for Drive-In Theatres, I appear in this film and was one
 >of the guests at the festivities celebrating the anniversary of
 >the creation of Drive-In theatres. In my UFO investigations I
 >have some compelling footage of a UFO over Durea, PA in the
 >daytime and at night. The daytime footage (enlarged) shows a
 >metal spinning object flashing many colors. At night it appears
 >like a bright light with color fringing. Further investigation
 >has revealed that there have been many similar sightings in
 >Pennsylvania. Since Becky's outdoor Drive-In Theatre is not far
 >from the Durea area, which has been a minor UFO hot spot, I
 >expected to see something. During the showing of the movie (I
 >was sitting outside on a bench) I scanned the dark sky and
 >spotted one bright light (similar to the one in the Durea
 >footage) and to the left of it a similar but dimmer light. I
 >pointed this out to my family and friends sitting nearby. We
 >watched as these lights slowly moved down from their fixed
 >positions to where they had rather quickly moved below the tree
 >line and were gone. Maybe UFO occupants like to watch movies at
 >Drive-In theatres. Thanks to Sam Sherman flexaret2@aol.com

Hi, George:

The drive in screen faces to the west. On June 1 at 9 PM, about
a half hour after sunset, the Queen of UFOs, Venus was brilliant
in the west, at magnitude -4, nearly as bright as it gets, at 32
degrees elevation, at an azimuth of 276 Deg., and just next to
it, only three degrees to the left was bright Jupiter at -1.9
magnitude.

Does anybody actually check out these sightings?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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              Illegitimacy Of CSICOP Attested To By Co-Founder

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 21:33:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:23:06 -0400
Subject: Illegitimacy Of CSICOP Attested To By Co-Founder


Wendy Connors is absolutely correct that CSICOP does no
scientific research. Their only attempt at it shortly after
CSICOP was founded resulted in the 'Starbaby' scandal where they
were caught misrepresenting the results of an experiment that
they had hoped would disprove a quasi-astrological 'Mars Effect'
reported by French statistician Michel Gauquelin. The article at
the URL below was written by Dennis Rawlins, one of the founders
of CSICOP, who resigned when he decided that the organization
had nothing to do with science.

http://www.psicounsel.com/starbaby.html

Rawlin's first paragraphs are worth repeating:

================================================================


"I used to believe it was simply a figment of the National
Enquirer's weekly imagination that the Science Establishment
would cover up evidence for the occult. But that was in the era
B.C. -- Before the Committee. I refer to the 'Committee for
the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal'
(CSICOP), of which I am a co-founder and on whose ruling
Executive Council (generally called the Council) I served for
some years.

I am still skeptical of the occult beliefs CSICOP was created
to debunk. But I have changed my mind about the integrity  of
some of those who make a career of opposing occultism.

I now believe that if a flying saucer landed in the backyard of
a leading anti-UFO spokesman, he might hide the incident from
the public (for the public's own good, of course). He might
swiftly convince himself that the landing was a hoax, a delusion
or an "unfortunate" interpretation of mundane phenomena that
could be explained away with "further research.

The irony of all this particularly distresses me since both in
print and before a national television audience I have stated
that the conspiratorial mentality of believers in occultism
presents a real political danger in a voting democracy. Now I
find that the very group I helped found has partially Justified
this mentality."

================================================================

CSICOP is a society of fanatics that disguise their beliefs in
scientific-sounding mumbo jumbo - the definition of
pseudoscience.

Marcello Truzzi, another founding member of CSICOP, left the
organization as well not long after he helped start it, and for
reasons similar to Rawlins. Truzzi also has the distinction of
coining the word "pseudo-skeptic".







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               Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 03:55:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:37:47 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

 >>I've noticed in other posts you favour pickets, I take it you
 >>mean demonstrations with supporters carrying banners and
 >>placards. After all how else would 'they' know what you are
 >>demonstrating about? Since you thought my 'Dear Government'
 >>comment was silly I'd be interested to know the sort of thing
 >>you may plan to write on your banners and placards.

 >RELEASE ALL UFO FILES
 >TO THE PUBLIC WHO
 >RIGHTLY OWNS THEM

I'm not so sure releasing all UFO files to the public would be
such a good idea. Some things remain secret for perfectly
legitimate reasons.

But I'm just splitting hairs here, I'm sure the wording will be
perfect when the time comes.

 >Since weatherproof vinyl signs would be required, I'd also
 >graphically place that text on top of a greyed background image
 >of the cover of an IRS form 1040 and have it professionally
 >printed by a sign shop.  The 1040 would be just slightly tilted
 >off vertical to emphasize it without swamping the large red,
 >bold faced lettering.

 >>I do understand what you're trying to do, rally the troops,
 >>battle cry, all that sort of thing.

 >It's the only way I can think of to get past both the government
 >and media denial and ridicule, with at least some hope of
 >motivating interested members of the public to demand answers.
 >Waiting for more elegant methods hasn't worked for half a
 >century.

 >>John Velez made a simple request to get folk to sign a petition:

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition/

 >>It's been an uphill struggle to get a reasonable response.

I take it you have (or intend to have) a website covering all
this. If you haven't, you might want to consider it.

The Internet has provided UFO people with the biggest platform
they've ever known.

I heard somewhere that UFOs are the second most searched for
subject, number one being porn, go figure.

 >A continuously manned picket site is also an uphill struggle,
 >and it's tragic that Greer supporters didn't do that around the
 >time of the May 10, 2001 press conference.  But if you want a
 >result, you have to put in the necessary work to bring it about.

It's all an uphill struggle, but every little helps.

I'm a computer graphic artist by profession. Going by your
banner description above I could do you an optimised graphic
version to splash across your opening page

My web address is:

http://www.grafikfx.co.uk

It's just a suggestion but the offers there.

Dave Bowden








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                              The 'CNN Factor'

From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:51:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:55:28 -0400
Subject: The 'CNN Factor'


"All the world's a stage and we are merely players"

But the directors and producers who will decide if the UFO Show
remains an off-off-Broadway comedy or is one day re-written as a
Pulitzer Prize-winning drama are the members of the television
media.  The general public, the politicians, and even hard
working, honest and precise UFO researchers are all merely
players. The public and the politicians are hugely influenced by
whatever viewpoint the television media presents. And serious
UFO researchers are largely powerless as long as the media
ignores them or treats them condescendingly.

Right now, the media powers present UFO Studies as a tongue-in-
cheek, light-hearted fluff story because it is profitable for
them to do so. One of two possibilities will have to occur for
the television media to rewrite its presentation of UFO Studies
and influence the public, the government, and academia to grant
it respectability. 1) A Mulder-esque proof positive physically
touchable alien craft or alien body will have to come into the
open. 2) A hugely famous yet hugely serious and hugely
respectable celebrity will have to begin making public
pronouncements about how very respectable and serious UFO
Studies are, for whatever reasons (saving democracy, preserving
freedom, ensuring world peace, etc.)

If either 1 or 2 occurs, the television media will rewrite their
presentation of UFO Studies to become serious and respectable
because at this hypothetical point serious and respectable would
become a more profitable way to sell UFO coverage than the
current angle of tongue-in-cheek.

Regarding Scenario 1, for instance, Kevin Randle has amassed
enough solid evidence through his years of research to likely
reach a verdict of guilty for the U.S. government if the Roswell
UFO cover-up was on trial in an American courtroom. People have
been convicted of murder on one-tenth the evidence that Randle
has discovered. But Dr. Randle unfortunately does not have an
alien vehicle in his possession and waiting for a CNN crew to
film.

Scenario 2 would occur, for example, if Tom Brokaw or Bernard
Shaw decided to do a serious and open-minded study of Roswell or
Area 51. The celebrity-driven television media would jump on
this chance to rewrite their UFO Studies presentation with a
respectable angle because a Brokaw or a Shaw or comparable
"serious and respectable" celebrity would be a sufficiently
powerful vehicle to inspire the media powers to make a change of
viewpoint. Once the television media's viewpoint on UFOs is
rewritten to be serious and respectable, then the public's and
the politicians' viewpoints will follow along accordingly like
bleating sheep following a shepherd. And the shepherd will
likely lead them to the works of serious UFO researchers.

I am just an average Joe who pays attention to you heavy hitters
via your books and this list. But this is what I see from the
outside looking in.

Keep up the great work and don't ever give up.


Regards,

Erik Landahl








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                         Two Anniversaries This Week

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:47:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:58:50 -0400
Subject: Two Anniversaries This Week


Morning All

I don't know how may of you you noticed, but two anniversaries
happened this week.

On June 5th 1969 Neil Armstrong put his best foot forward, and
was the first man to step onto the moon.

On June 4th 1977 the first interstellar craft where launched,
Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 hit the skies.


Warm regards to all,

Sean








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                      Mothman Prophecies On Home Video

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 06:44:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:11:24 -0400
Subject: Mothman Prophecies On Home Video


National Post
3 June 2002

The Mothman Prophecies and its based-on-reality chills come to home video

JOHN MCKAY
Canadian Press

(CP) - In The Mothman Prophecies (Columbia), Richard Gere stars
as a reporter from the Washington Post who journeys to a small
town in West Virginia where the local residents have been seeing
strange visions, in particular a huge, spooky moth-like human
figure.

TV's Debra Messing (Will & Grace) saw it, just before the auto
crash she and her husband were involved in. She's quickly
dispatched, leaving Gere to develop a kinship with the town's
fine-looking sheriff, played by Laura Linney.

One subtly creepy moment occurs when Gere, unable to sleep,
decides on a midnight drive from D.C. to Richmond, Va. -
normally about a two-hour trip. Yet he ends up breaking down on
a remote highway at 2 a.m. . .on the far side of West Virginia,
a journey that normally would take seven or eight hours.

Is someone or something drawing him to the town? Is the mothman
a demon? Or is it a spiritual warning of terrible things to
come?

There's a risk to basing your horror on true-life events. On the
one hand, authenticity can boost viewer interest. But it can
also limit the range of the horror if the real events are
actually supposed to be on the record somewhere. Fake, true or
stretched, the result here manages to be suitably
chilling.

---------------
Real Mothman Info:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931044341/mothmanbooks-20
---------------
DVD:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000648X0/mothmanbooks-20
--------------
Video:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006490Q/mothmanbooks-20
---------------
http://www.nationalpost.com/artslife/story.html?f=/news/updates/stories/20020603
/entertainment-396012.html







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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 9:44:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:13:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:15:49 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 ><snip>

 >>This strikes me as a load of crap. I know no former military
 >>people who couldn't put their hands on their DD 214s in just a
 >>couple of minutes.

 >Kevin, you seem to be full of yourself. He had moved residence
 >and like me had it in storage.

 >>For one thing many of us carry a copy in our wallets.

 >An 8.5 x 11 paper? The one I carry in my wallet is a DD Form 217
 >AF. Why would anyone carry a full page in their wallet?

 >>For another many states provide benefits to veterans that
 >>require the DD 214.

 >>If you asked me, I could have pulled one from my wallet, and I
 >>have copies of all the others from the various points of my
 >>military service.

 >I would like to see the one in your wallet sometime.

 >Just another thought.


Bill,

Many people have a reduced copy of their 214 in their wallets.
The VFW use to make such copies for members. Almost all
employers want a copy of your 214 when you apply for employment.

I am rather surprised that you are jumping on Kevin about this
especially when it concerns self-confessed hoaxer Mel Noel.

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                   Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:48:42 -500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:15:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP - Hutchinson


 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:24:51 -0600
 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:23:08 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 06:09:13 -0600
 >>>Subject: Re: Illegitimacy of CSICOP

 > ><snip>

 >>>BTW, Bob. I love the little kid type
 >>>running to daddy you did. Cute.

 >>Wendy

 >>It is a shame that an investigator of your status feels she must
 >>resort to petulant ad homium attacks like this. It only
 >>denigrates your position, and quite frankly, creates the
 >>impression that your position on CSICOP may be based more on
 >>jealousy than a difference of opinion- no matter how polar
 >>those opinions are.

 >Not jealousy, Bruce. You are dead wrong. Not a difference of
 >opinion anymore either. Again, you're wrong. Denegration of my
 >position or status? Hardly. The field of Ufology is litered with
 >sheep and surrounded by egos. I think for myself, something the
 >CSICOP cult wishes people like me didn't do (and I'm sure some
 >Ufologists do too), because it interferes with their Third-
 >Reich-style agenda.

It is readily apparent that both Wendy and her gallant defender
Alfred thoroughly missed the point of my post. I did not raise
any questions regarding Wendy's position on CSICOP. I only
addressed her use of ad hominum taunts, and noted the
impressions she conveys with their use.

This is not the Usenet. You can have serious disagreements here,
and debating your positions can sometimes require very firm
language. However, if feel you have to stoop to the playground
to get your points across, remember that your message may be
judged at the same level.

Wendy and/or Alfred may wish to add a coda, but I will end it
here.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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             Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 07:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:46:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Hamilton


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:02:51 -0600
 >Subject: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

 >To the UFO Updates List:

 >This email was received by me on June 6, 2002. It is shared with
 >the readership and I answer it, here, on the UFO UpDates List:

 >Dear Wendy Connors:

 >Klass: In your recent 'Collective Mind of the CSICOP Cult', you
 >charged that CSICOP "is a cult of individuals whose commonality
 >and goal is to use any method under a twisted guise of science
 >to force a belief system THAT SCIENCE IS DAMAGED BY
 >INVESTIGATION OF PARANORMAL AVENUES and that people who engage
 >in such research are INHERENTLY DANGEROUS TO SOCIETY." (Emphasis
 >added.)

 >Connors: That is my expressed opinion. Why the need for
 >"Emphasis added?" It didn't need to be and denotes shouting in
 >computer netiquette. I am of the opinion that I must have
 >rattled your sensibilities that you felt the need to shout.
 >Email is a text-based forum. It has no volume control. But, go
 >ahead and rave on if you feel you must.

 >Klass: For more than 35 years, I have spent many thousands of
 >hours investigating dozens of UFO incidents--a prominent
 >paranormal phenomenon. And for nearly as long I have been a
 >member of CSICOP's Executive Council--which sets CSICOP policy.
 >Yet I have NEVER encountered any CSICOP policy or actions which
 >would confirm your accusation.

 >Connors: Having read your work regarding the field of Ufology, I
 >would disagree. You have spent over 35 years opining and
 >pretending you've investigated the phenomena of crypto-
 >aeronautics. Your so-called research is based upon ignoring the
 >raw data, failing to do field investigations and conviently
 >selecting bits and pieces of others work and effort to make a
 >case that is not scientific by any stretch of the imagination
 >and caused great harm to decent people who honestly look at the
 >phenomenon.

 >Connors: You have done so from the immediate position of the case
 >being anything but a prosaic explanation. In other words, you
 >have defaulted and deceived yourself more than bringing to light
 >anything of scientific substance dealing with the phenomena of
 >crypto-aeronautics. You engage in character assassination... re:
 >Dennis Balthaser and others. You've done so repeatedly when your
 >own sub-standard research has been questioned by competent
 >researchers and investigators. Your track record is an open book
 >on this point.

 >Connors: In reference to your being of the CSICOP cults exective
 >board and have set the policy for CSICOP I will offer this
 >personal observation. Big deal. Your hidden agenda as a cult is
 >to mute and castigate free thought and research, because it is
 >in some trumped up fashion, a violation of CSICOPian ideals. You
 >and your one-mind hive members go out of their way to discredit
 >anyone who may be interested in openly researching and
 >expressing their right of belief and personal understanding of
 >the world around them. People don't bow to the CSICOPian ideals
 >of scientific thought and they are smeared with such labels as,
 >"Believers, etc." Robert Shaeffer is on record as a CSICOP
 >member and provides ample proof of such labeling in an attempt
 >to discredit. These and other not-so-nice practices indeed prove
 >that CSICOP is a bogus scientific cult without any redeeming
 >social value.

<snip>

Wendy,

I remember CSICOP's greatest fiasco which was revealed by one of
their own, Dennis Rawlins, when there was a study made to refute
the claims of the prominent French neo-astrologers Michel and
Francoise Gauquelin.

See: http://cura.free.fr/xv/14starbb.html

This is Rawlins' article as it appeared in FATE magazine in
October 1981 that led to a furor within the ranks.

- Bill Hamilton








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:49:39 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:25:7 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:03:06 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >>>>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:20 -0300

 ><snip>

 >Those who might wish to read the Guy Kirkwood/Mel Noel saga may
 >click on

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m29-017.shtml

 >Kirkwood can't exit the scene, but he keeps coming back every
 >few years. There is always a new corp of suckers for his
 >stories. There is indeed one born every minute.

 >Con-men are indeed convincing, that is their game.

This is a conclusion to reach when you just read articles and
don't do real research enough to know which parts of this
article are inaccurate.


-Bill H








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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 353

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@tiscali.it>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:21:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:52:33 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 353


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 353 -  3 MAY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- The C.I.S.U. at the International Book Fair
- A Half-Million Visitors at "UFO On-Line"
- "Stargate Magazine" Returns, but only on the Internet


        THE C.I.S.U. AT THE INTERNATIONAL BOOK FAIR

The Italian Center for Ufological Studies and its publications
will make an appearance at the International Book Fair.

For the first time, in fact, the books, monographs and
periodicals from UPIAR Publications will be displayed at a booth
at the largest gathering devoted to the Italian publishing
sector, taking place from 16 to 20 May at the Lingotto Fair in
Turin, with an expected 200,000 visitors in attendance.

CISU members, UFO students and buffs are invited to
take advantage of the occasion and pay us a visit. For
more details, you may contact the C.I.S.U. secretary
at the usual telephone and e-mail addresses.


A HALF-MILLION VISITORS AT UFO ON-LINE

The half-million visitors mark has been surpassed on the sole
Homepage of the Internet site 'UFO On-line', which is edited for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies by Maurizio Verga at:

http://www.ufo.it

What was in 1995 the first Italian UFO site on the Internet,
besides being the largest as far as the number of pages and
the quantity of data,  still remains the most popular of its
kind among browsers of the World Wide Web, the site having
distanced itself in one manner or another from all the others.
[Communication by Maurizio Verga.]


'STARGATE MAGAZINE' RETURNS, BUT ONLY ON THE INTERNET

In anticipation of its continually-announced but forever-
postponed return to the newsstands, and on the heels of the
failure of the Futuro Publ. Co.,  "Stargate" magazine by
Maurizio Baiata is returning (on a pay-per-view basis) to the
Internet.

In fact, the new company 'Web2000' announced the startup of the
website www.stargatejournal.it, with some sections accessible
for free and others with texts and articles available only to
subscribers who, after having paid a monthly fee of 5 Euro (with
a sliding-scale discount for lengthier subscriptions), would
then be entitled to additional services. [Communication by Gildo
Person=E8.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Gildo Person=E8 and
Maurizio Verga.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.

Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:52:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:56:57 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle


 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:22:08 -0500
 >From: Steve Owens <spidey@keepandbeararms.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:15:49 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - GT McCoy

<snip>

 >I'm not going to say the man is or isn't telling the truth, but
 >it strikes me that different people keep records in different
 >ways.

Then I will join Stan and Don Ecker and say it. The man isn't
telling the truth.

 >So, now you know of at least two more people that can't get at
 >their DD214 without a bit of bother.  <g>

 >I think expecting the person to have instant or easy access to a
 >DD214 is, by itself, not evidence of anything except that the
 >person doesn't use military benefits often.

I am suggesting that those who are not who they say they are
often have trouble producing records to verify their claims. I
am saying that this tempest in a teapot over the DD 214 is just
another example. You said you knew where yours was and that you
could get to it, not that it would take you years to produce it.

BTW, for those of you interested in geneological research, one
of the ways to trace ancesters is to contact the county
courthouses where they lived and ask for copies of the DD 214
(or its predecessor). So, with almost no trouble, he might have
been able to do that.

I'm saying that we always provide excuses for those who don't
have the evidence we need to corroborate. When I challenged
Gerald Anderson about being a SEAL and reported that the members
of the SEAL museum in Miami knew nothing about him, this was
reduced to some guys at some museum. Well, it wasn't quite that
simple and the real point was that men who were SEALS and should
have known about Anderson didn't. Now with the SEAL web site
active anyone can check on it and learn that Anderson didn't
tell the truth about that either.

In all this nonsense about the DD 214 everyone seems bent on
ignoring the information that Stan supplied that went far beyond
the lack of a single document. It suggested that
Noel/Kirkwood/whoever, hadn't done any of the things that he
claims to have done. Why should we defend this guy whose story
is interesting but is not corroborated?

I tried to make it clear and I tried to be reasonable about
this. But I, like many others, am getting tired of the same
arguments over and over. There is no evidence that Kirkwood/Noel
is who he claims to be. He has not established it and the fact
that he originally claimed his DD 214 was buried in boxes struck
me as odd. I even have the one from when I was an enlisted man
so many years ago.

So, here is where we are. I don't believe this story and have
seen nothing to suggest that it is true. The DD 214 is
unimportant in the long run because there are so many other
holes in the tale. And let's not forget that in a world filled
with copy machines, white-out, scanners and computers, it is
very simple to create an authentic looking document but
something else again to have that document verified by an
official source, something that has not been done with
Kirkwood's DD 214.


KRandle








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              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:51:04 -500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:58:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >If the designs
 >witnessed by Marcel weren't the designs described by Moore, then
 >it's plausible that the official explanation for them is in
 >error and that an unconventional aircraft of some sort indeed
 >crashed near Roswell in 1947.

Your assumption here is that Marcel Jr. described them right.
You should also mention that it is equally plausable that Marcel
Jr. remembered the designs incorrectly, and the debris was
indeed a NYU Rawin as described by Moore.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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               Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:22:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:00:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Velez


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:02:51 -0600
 >>Subject: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

 >>To the UFO Updates List:

 >>This email was received by me on June 6, 2002. It is shared with
 >>the readership and I answer it, here, on the UFO UpDates List:

 ><snip>

 >Bravo! Articulate, informed, and dead-on accurate.

 >Thanks, Wendy, for the excellent piece.


Hi Wendy, Mac, All,

I know that EBK hates to post these one sentence "I agree" posts
but, right on Wendy! Well said, well done.

Rather than sit back quietly without comment I thought it was
important to let you know that you have strong backing and
support. Give em Hell Wendy. They've more than earned it.


Regards,

John Velez








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              Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Tonnies

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:32:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:02:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass - Tonnies


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:02:51 -0600
 >>Subject: Connors Open Response To Phil Klass

 >>To the UFO Updates List:

 >>This email was received by me on June 6, 2002. It is shared with
 >>the readership and I answer it, here, on the UFO UpDates List:

 ><snip>

 >Bravo! Articulate, informed, and dead-on accurate.

 >Thanks, Wendy, for the excellent piece.


Hello, All, Mac, Wendy,

I second Mac's opinion, Wendy you speak truth, Hear Hear!


GT McCoy








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                    Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:37:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:23:23 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'


 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:19:43 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:05 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

 >>>>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:56:22 +0000
 >>>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>>>>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 03:49:18 +0100
 >>>>>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

<snip>

 >Hi Eleanor,

 >The day those kids were killed by the National Guard at Kent
 >State University 'picketing' as a viable means of accomplishing
 >anything gradually went the way of the Dodo. There is a clear
 >demarkation point between the size and kind of demonstrations
 >and picketing that was done prior to, and then after, the
 >incident at Kent State. Whether by design or not, Kent State was
 >an accident waiting to happen. At that point in time all you had
 >to do was mix certain elements and you could predict with some
 >degree of accuracy what the outcome of the alchemy would be.

 >Whether by accident or design, the incident at Kent State sent a
 >clear and unmistakable message to the people. Absolute power
 >corrupts absolutely. The day National guardsmen gunned down
 >those college kids while peacefully demonstrating on their own
 >campus, a lot of steam was taken out of the growing activist
 >movement in this country.

 >As many folks old enough to remember will tell you, things got
 >pretty ugly in this country for many years. People were so
 >pissed and frustrated they started burning cities down. (Watts,
 >Newark, Chicago etc.) The 'Law & Order' Right Wing backlash
 >caused righteous fear to replace the fervor of commitment in the
 >hearts of many. Can't say as I blame em all either.

Well, I can create excuses too. Excuses are easier than
picketing, I'll grant you that.

 >How many 'causes' are you willing to die for?

One, without hesitation. Freedom. (I'm not a militia member or
anything like that, by the way.)

What I've been hinting at, and this forum is not the place to do
more than hint along these lines, you _will_ find, not may find,
I would estimate by the end of this decade, that the UFO issue
has been smacking us all in the face with the fact that the
originally intended U.S. Constitutional style freedom is dead,
yet nobody's noticed, because the decline has been so gradual,
and because beer and home videos are plentiful.


Eleanor White








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                        Re: Fewer Abductions? - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:57:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:25:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions? - White


 >Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:34:27 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>From: Reed Hall <Tanaleaf9@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:54:27 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Fewer Abductions?

 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:29:43 -0400
 >>>Subject: Fewer Abductions?

<snip>

 >Not to mention the fact that experiencers/contactees still have
 >no one and no place they can turn to for _responsible_ help. We
 >deal with issues that would drive others completely mad.

I'm not sure what profession you mean when you say "help" John,
but at times, I'm sure a non-judgemental psychiatric examination
might be sought in the abduction field.  My own (other) cause
also requires honest psychiatric evaluations to assist us as we
pursue our publicity and persuasion work.

One way that has worked to locate an honest psychiatrist is
this:

1.  Through the yellow pages or otherwise find a lawyer who
     has mental health defence as a specialty and is local to where
     the abductee lives.  If not spelled out in the yellow pages,
     perhaps the provincial or state law society can help.

2.  Ask that lawyer, who has been 'up against' local
     psychiatrists in his/her work, to recommend an honest doctor
     who is not prone to hair trigger diagnoses and appears to the
     lawyer to be an all-round 'straight shooter'.

It's possible this might even be covered by the customary "free
30 minutes" offered by most lawyers to see if they are able to
help a new potential client.  It is possible that an abuctee
might benefit from knowing such a lawyer, as in today's "forced
medication age" of psychiatry, a lawyer may avoid unnecessary
force of this type.


Eleanor White








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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Ecker

From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:23:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:10:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Ecker


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:25:7 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >><snip>

 >>Those who might wish to read the Guy Kirkwood/Mel Noel saga may
 >>click on

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m29-017.shtml

 >>Kirkwood can't exit the scene, but he keeps coming back every
 >>few years. There is always a new corp of suckers for his
 >>stories. There is indeed one born every minute.

 >>Con-men are indeed convincing, that is their game.

 >This is a conclusion to reach when you just read articles and
 >don't do real research enough to know which parts of this
 >article are inaccurate.

 >-Bill H


Okay Gang;

I have been busy but still have been lurking the List. I have
been following the thread on Kirkwood and had no intention of
joining in on something I felt I put to bed about 10 or 11 years
ago. Then I saw the remark by Bill Hamilton suggesting my
article is "inaccurate".

Whoa Bubba, this ain't gonna slide.

First, before we ever printed the article on Guy the Shyster, I
had him sitting in my kitchen and gave him the proofs to read
and if he chose to refute anything, he had his chance even
before the article ran. By a month.

Next I gave him the chance, and waited OVER ONE YEAR for him to
produce his DD 214. Nebba Happen GI.

I interviewed Don Dornan for the article. For those of you that
do not know who he is, his brother was Rep. Robert Dornan of
Orange County Calf. or as he is known..... B 1 Bob Dornan.
Dornan interviewed Kirkwood, Noel, Cornwall back in the 60's
about his story. Bob Dornan was a F-100 Super Sabre Pilot and he
knew Kirkwood was full-of-it. Exposed him on LA TV. Etc. etc.
etc. I could go on but what is the use?

Now Bill Hamilton... what the hell is inaccurate? Shovel it out
Pal, or just admit you got taken... again.

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
www.ufomag.com








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                     NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy?

From: Gregory Gutierez <greguti@free.fr>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 00:37:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:17:49 -0400
Subject: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy?


Hello all,

In France few ufologists know about Bigelow's NIDS. I have read
in Patrick Huyghe's 'Swamp Gas Times' book that this
organisation was "controversial".

Yet, data and documents at the NIDS website seem, to me, very
interesting and well done ('alleged implant', 'mutilations
reports', etc.).

What exactly are the criticisms about NIDS or Bigelow?

I learned about what Richard Hall said, recently, that Bigelow
tried to buy personal testimonies of abductions from someone in
MUFON. Is there anything else against NIDS?

Thanks a lot for your help,

Gregory Gutierez
http://greguti.free.fr/aleph
Mail-list for fortean weirdos








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                Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:57:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:28:02 -0400
Subject: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area


STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

SOURCE: Diario "La Arena" (La Pampa, Argentina)
DATE: O6-06-02

STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA


GENERAL ACHA (DNA) -- The presence of a "dwarf" or "green
midget" wandering the backyards of many neighborhoods in General
Acha has been the latest subject of conversation. It appears to
be a short, green entity which runs away with haste when
detected.

A resident of the El Oeste neighborhood informed this newspaper
that the entity appeared twice on her property: once in the
morning and once in the afternoon. According to the woman, her
husband was resting on both occasions, but when he reported to
the backyard in response to his wife's screams,  the mysterious
entity vanished by rapidly climbing up a tree. While the man did
not see the "dwarf", he gives his spouse the benefit of the
doubt, stating that he has known her for 40 years and can vouch
for her physical and mental health.

All versions agree in that the entity is short in stature.
Another resident added that ti moved so quickly that it was hard
to describe it. The fact is that this entity, described as "a
green dwarf", is causing a stir in the city and its
manifestations have been the subject of conversation in certain
circles. The stories have already captivated radio audiences and
interest and curiosity for the subject increase as time goes by.

=============================
Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.

---------
See http://www.anomalist.com/books/ets.html
for more information about these specific types.







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               Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:41:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:34:53 -0400
Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up' - Bowden


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 03:55:41 +0100
 >Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:48:06 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SDI 190 - 'Media Not Covering-Up'

 >>RELEASE ALL UFO FILES
 >>TO THE PUBLIC WHO
 >>RIGHTLY OWNS THEM

 >>Since weatherproof vinyl signs would be required, I'd also
 >>graphically place that text on top of a greyed background image
 >>of the cover of an IRS form 1040 and have it professionally
 >>printed by a sign shop.  The 1040 would be just slightly tilted
 >>off vertical to emphasize it without swamping the large red,
 >>bold faced lettering.

 >I take it you have (or intend to have) a website covering all
 >this. If you haven't, you might want to consider it.

 >I'm a computer graphic artist by profession. Going by your
 >banner description above I could do you an optimised graphic
 >version to splash across your opening page


With regard to the above I'd like to point out that Eleanor has
sent me a private mail thanking me for my offer.

I only say this because I don't want the lister's to think she
is ignoring a genuine offer of help.

Dave Bowden








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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:01:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:37:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:51:04 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 ><snip>

 >>If the designs witnessed by Marcel weren't the designs
 >> described by Moore, then
 >>it's plausible that the official explanation for them is in
 >>error and that an unconventional aircraft of some sort indeed
 >>crashed near Roswell in 1947.

 >Your assumption here is that Marcel Jr. described
 >them right.

No it's not. Please re-read the first sentence: "_If_ the designs
witnessed by Marcel..." (emphasis added)

Yes, one can and should question Marcel's recall; I certainly
do. While I'm pretty sure his reconstruction isn't "perfect"--
  and creating a "perfect" replica wasn't the intention of
recreating the I-beam designs anyway--it offers a general idea
of what Marcel saw, based on an important event in his
childhood.

 >You should also mention that it is equally plausable
 >that Marcel
 >Jr. remembered the designs incorrectly, and the
 >debris was
 >indeed a NYU Rawin as described by Moore.

On the same token, perhaps we can question Moore's recall as
well. It's been a long time since either Marcel or Moore saw
whatever they saw, regardless if it was the same thing.

I think the AF should dig up some of this "novelty tape" and
offer it to Marcel for confirmation or denial.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:46:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:02:56 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:23:51 -0700

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:25:7 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>><snip>

 >>>Those who might wish to read the Guy Kirkwood/Mel Noel saga may
 >>>click on

 >>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m29-017.shtml

 >>>Kirkwood can't exit the scene, but he keeps coming back every
 >>>few years. There is always a new corp of suckers for his
 >>>stories. There is indeed one born every minute.

 >>>Con-men are indeed convincing, that is their game.

 >>This is a conclusion to reach when you just read articles and
 >>don't do real research enough to know which parts of this
 >>article are inaccurate.

 >>-Bill H

 >Okay Gang;

 >I have been busy but still have been lurking the List. I have
 >been following the thread on Kirkwood and had no intention of
 >joining in on something I felt I put to bed about 10 or 11 years
 >ago. Then I saw the remark by Bill Hamilton suggesting my
 >article is "inaccurate".

 >Whoa Bubba, this ain't gonna slide.

 >First, before we ever printed the article on Guy the Shyster, I
 >had him sitting in my kitchen and gave him the proofs to read
 >and if he chose to refute anything, he had his chance even
 >before the article ran. By a month.

 >Next I gave him the chance, and waited OVER ONE YEAR for him to
 >produce his DD 214. Nebba Happen GI.

 >I interviewed Don Dornan for the article. For those of you that
 >do not know who he is, his brother was Rep. Robert Dornan of
 >Orange County Calf. or as he is known..... B 1 Bob Dornan.
 >Dornan interviewed Kirkwood, Noel, Cornwall back in the 60's
 >about his story. Bob Dornan was a F-100 Super Sabre Pilot and he
 >knew Kirkwood was full-of-it. Exposed him on LA TV. Etc. etc.
 >etc. I could go on but what is the use?

 >Now Bill Hamilton... what the hell is inaccurate? Shovel it out
 >Pal, or just admit you got taken... again.


Thanks, Don.

Bill, I do not appreciate your comments.

Did you get a copy of any of Kirkwood's/Noel's documents?

Why does this turkey have two names, in the 1950's he was
Mel Noel, super fighter pilot?

As I said, we did interview Kirkwood for SHG. He is on video
tape. I am aware of his activities and claims going back to
1950's; apparently you are not. I also know that he has been
exposed a number of times, dropped out, gone away, and returned
when the heat cooled down. Most recently he has reappeared
again. In his later years he started using Guy Kirkwood handle.
His supposed associates that he claims were in the squadron with
him can't be located or in the case of one individual will not
confirm anything that Kirkwood claims.

Recently, I met with Robert Klinn in Las Vegas. We also
discussed the long and crazy career of Noel/Kirkwood among other
things. Klinn was rather put out that we even interviewed
Kirkwood. While Don's article may have some inaccuracies, you
have failed to point any out. There is nothing accurate about
Kirkwood except that he continues to spread talltales wherever
he goes. He can still sucker people in. He did to you, Bill.

Here is the challenge, Bill, just what research have you done on
Kirkwood/Cornwall/Noel other that listen to his tall tales? I am
awaiting your answer with great anticipation.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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                      Williams Lake, B.C., UFO Articles

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:31:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:07:07 -0400
Subject: Williams Lake, B.C., UFO Articles


Hi List,

There are some good articles on UFO sightings which took place
back in the 1960s and one from 1990 at the URL below. There are
also photos to go with three of these articles.

http://www.geocities.com/ufologia_canadiana/WilliamsLake.html

I will, a bit later on, add some actual reports from the area
which are on their way to me.

Take care and hope you find them of interest.


Brian








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:10:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:23:51 -0700

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:25:7 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 >>><snip>

 >>>Those who might wish to read the Guy Kirkwood/Mel Noel saga may
 >>>click on

 >>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m29-017.shtml

 >>>Kirkwood can't exit the scene, but he keeps coming back every
 >>>few years. There is always a new corp of suckers for his
 >>>stories. There is indeed one born every minute.

 >>>Con-men are indeed convincing, that is their game.

 >>This is a conclusion to reach when you just read articles and
 >>don't do real research enough to know which parts of this
 >>article are inaccurate.

 >I have been busy but still have been lurking the List. I have
 >been following the thread on Kirkwood and had no intention of
 >joining in on something I felt I put to bed about 10 or 11 years
 >ago. Then I saw the remark by Bill Hamilton suggesting my
 >article is "inaccurate".

 >Whoa Bubba, this ain't gonna slide.

 >First, before we ever printed the article on Guy the Shyster, I
 >had him sitting in my kitchen and gave him the proofs to read
 >and if he chose to refute anything, he had his chance even
 >before the article ran. By a month.

 >Next I gave him the chance, and waited OVER ONE YEAR for him to
 >produce his DD 214. Nebba Happen GI.

 >I interviewed Don Dornan for the article. For those of you that
 >do not know who he is, his brother was Rep. Robert Dornan of
 >Orange County Calf. or as he is known..... B 1 Bob Dornan.
 >Dornan interviewed Kirkwood, Noel, Cornwall back in the 60's
 >about his story. Bob Dornan was a F-100 Super Sabre Pilot and he
 >knew Kirkwood was full-of-it. Exposed him on LA TV. Etc. etc.
 >etc. I could go on but what is the use?

 >Now Bill Hamilton... what the hell is inaccurate? Shovel it out
 >Pal, or just admit you got taken... again.

Hey, Pal, this is the attitude that doesn't get us anywhere in
this field. I will only post the info once I have it all
correct.

I am not taken by anything because everything is provisional
with me. The trouble is everything is conclusive with you.


-Bill H







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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:25:05 -0400
Subject: Re:  UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 9:44:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

<snip>

 >Bill,

 >Many people have a reduced copy of their 214 in their wallets.
 >The VFW use to make such copies for members. Almost all
 >employers want a copy of your 214 when you apply for employment.

Sorry, I have never seen a wallet-sized one. Why not lock it a
way in a safe box like I do.

 >I am rather surprised that you are jumping on Kevin about this
 >especially when it concerns self-confessed hoaxer Mel Noel.

Self-confessed? Never heard his confession.

The bottom line is Guy does not really care if UFO investigators
believe him or not and I cannot make him prove himself.

I have known him for 25+ years and have seen photos over the
years of him in a Sabre jet in full flight gear and a few other
photos that look as good as some of the photos from Edwards.

He chooses not to make the docs he has public for reasons of his
own.

As a last word, Guy Mel Noel Kirkwood does fall for schemes thus
he himself is painted as a flim-flam man which I can make no
excuse for, but the details of his story have been consistent
for 25 years and I have seen him talk in a room with other
pilots who have no trouble with his technical verbage.


-Bill H







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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:27:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:52:58 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

<snip>

 >I am suggesting that those who are not who they say they are
 >often have trouble producing records to verify their claims. I
 >am saying that this tempest in a teapot over the DD 214 is just
 >another example. You said you knew where yours was and that you
 >could get to it, not that it would take you years to produce it.

 >BTW, for those of you interested in geneological research, one
 >of the ways to trace ancesters is to contact the county
 >courthouses where they lived and ask for copies of the DD 214
 >(or its predecessor). So, with almost no trouble, he might have
 >been able to do that.

 >I'm saying that we always provide excuses for those who don't
 >have the evidence we need to corroborate. When I challenged
 >Gerald Anderson about being a SEAL and reported that the members
 >of the SEAL museum in Miami knew nothing about him, this was
 >reduced to some guys at some museum. Well, it wasn't quite that
 >simple and the real point was that men who were SEALS and should
 >have known about Anderson didn't. Now with the SEAL web site
 >active anyone can check on it and learn that Anderson didn't
 >tell the truth about that either.

Why do you suppose Stanton has turned around to support the
Anderson story again? Why do researchers feel different about
various witnesses and reach different conclusions?

On the other hand I have heard Stanton say he does not accept
Frank Kauffman's testimony.

And, of course Karl Pflock will have none of it.

All expert researchers who cannot come to the same conclusion.

Well, I have seen the same happen in all controversial areas of
science.

 >In all this nonsense about the DD 214 everyone seems bent on
 >ignoring the information that Stan supplied that went far beyond
 >the lack of a single document. It suggested that
 >Noel/Kirkwood/whoever, hadn't done any of the things that he
 >claims to have done. Why should we defend this guy whose story
 >is interesting but is not corroborated?

I am not asking you to. I have known him for 25+ years and have
seen photos of his days as a Sabre jet pilot and have heard him
tell his story over this time more consistently than some of the
Roswell witnesses so I don't dismiss it.

His problem is associating with schemes that gives him a flim-
flam reputation, but these are things he really seems to believe
in and I am not one to persuade him otherwise.


-Bill H








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:29:40 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:22:08 -0500
 >From: Steve Owens <spidey@keepandbeararms.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

<snip>

 >I'm not going to say the man is or isn't telling the truth, but
 >it strikes me that different people keep records in different
 >ways. If asked for a copy of my DD214 I would have to think
 >about which storage cabinet it is in and then I would have to
 >paw through my Air Force records to find it. My Dad, who uses
 >VA resources on a regular basis, used to carry his in a folder
 >with the rest of his and my mother's medical records in a folder
 >any time they went to a military facility. That stopped when
 >the VA started issuing a photo ID about five years ago. Now, he
 >too would have to look for his DD214 and other records since he
 >doesn't carry them to military facilities.

 >So, now you know of at least two more people that can't get at
 >their DD214 without a bit of bother. <g>

 >I think expecting the person to have instant or easy access to a
 >DD214 is, by itself, not evidence of anything except that the
 >person doesn't use military benefits often.

Yes, plus it is a fact that he had moved and placed it in
storage with what his friends say are tons of boxes. Finally one
volunteered to help him find it and he did and now does carry
them in a brown envelope with him.

Why doesn't someone take the trouble of asking him if he would
please show them just for openers.


-Bill H






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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 354

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@tiscali.it>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:35:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 11:54:25 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 354


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 354 -  10 MAY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Update on Italian Sightings in April
- The Pascagoula Abduction Makes the Comics
- The C.I.S.U. at the International Book Fair


UPDATE ON ITALIAN SIGHTINGS IN APRIL

The UFO Sightings Working Group of the Italian Center for UFO
Studies has released the regular monthly update of the Italian
case log for the number of alleged UFO sightings in Italy.

Eighteen reports have been heretofore gathered on sightings
occurring during the month of April, while the number relative
to the first quarter of 2002 jumped to 110, and the total is now
  739 for the year 2001, which was the object of a very UFO Wave.

The updated monthly statistics for the entire year of 2001 and
for the first four months of 2002 are already available on the
C.I.S.U Internet site (www.arpnet.it/ufo/cases2001.htm). Over
the next few days, an update will be posted of the complete case
listings (www.arpnet.it/ufo/cases0112.htm) as well as the
catalogs containing details of accounts and sources on each case
since January 2002 (www.arpnet.it/ufo/cases0201.htm).

[Communication by Giorgio Abraini; UFO-Italia, 10 May]


THE PASCAGOULA ABDUCTION MAKES THE COMICS

Hot off the presses is a new and illustrated comic book,
entitled "Pascagoula" and dedicated to one of the most known
alien abduction cases, which took place in 1973 in the United
States. It is penned by the comics illustrator and former
ufologist, Edoardo Morricone, who also wrote an introduction.

Published for the Teramo Comix 2002 exhibit held last weekend,
the booklet (46 pages, in limited edition) will not arrive on
newsstands, but in specialty bookstores only.

As usual, the UPIAR Book Service has purchased a certain
quantity of the publication for subscribers to the Italian
Center for UFO Studies (and to other affiliated associations),
which these may order for the price of 4.40 Euro (shipping
included) at www.upiar.com

[Collaboration by Edoardo Morricone and Marcello Pupilli]


THE C.I.S.U. AT THE INTERNATIONAL BOOK FAIR

As previously announced, the Italian Center for UFO Studies will
be present at the International Book Fair with its books,
monographs and periodicals, as a guest (together with other
associations) in a booth at the  major fair of the Italian
publishing sector.

The fair will take place from 16 through 20 May at the Lingotto
Fair in Turin and will also be a good opportunity to meet CISU
members, UFO students and buffs, who are invited to pay us a
visit. For greater details, you may contact the C.I.S.U.
secretary at the usual telephone or Internet addresses.


Collaborators on this edition were: Giorgio Abraini,
Edoardo Morricone and Marcello Pupilli.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 9

             Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 23:50:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 11:56:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area -


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:57:14 -0400
 >Subject: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area

 >STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

 >SOURCE: Diario "La Arena" (La Pampa, Argentina)
 >DATE: O6-06-02

 >STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

 >GENERAL ACHA (DNA) -- The presence of a "dwarf" or "green
 >midget" wandering the backyards of many neighborhoods in General
 >Acha has been the latest subject of conversation. It appears to
 >be a short, green entity which runs away with haste when
 >detected.

<snip>

Hello Loren:

At last! A little green man. Could it be a baby chupacabra that
got artificially colored somehow?





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   Jun > Jun 9

              Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 05:13:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 11:58:39 -0400
Subject: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention


TO: Chief, Criminal Section - Civil Rights Division
    U. S. Department of Justice
    P. O. Box 66018
    Washington, DC 20035-6018

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
     3518 Martha Custis Drive
     Alexandria, VA 22302

SUBJECT: Request for Your Investigative and Remedial Intervention

DATE: June 8, 2002

According to the enclosed F.B.I. memorandum of Jan. 18, 1967, a
citizen of Chesapeake, Va., experienced an episode of UFO-E.T.
abduction -- complete with such classic elements as the
description of his alien abductors and the ensuing period of
"missing time."

Likewise, a few years ago, a Northern Virginia resident, who
happens to be a serial victim of the UFO-E.T. abduction
experience, re-encountered several UFO-borne perpetrators in
Fauquier County, where she duly has filed a report with a
sheriff's deputy (see enclosed copy of her related May 3, 2000,
affidavit).

Third, two other serial abductees in Virginia - Clare Holcomb
and Diana Graves - who've published a book about their life-
  long encounters with these intrusive, exploitive entities
("Connections: Solving our Alien Abduction Mystery," under the
pseudonyms Beth Collings and Anna Jamerson), stand as the
epitome of what happens, and can continue to happen, to a
citizenry whose law-enforcement system has left them to fend for
themselves (see the enclosed Dec. 16, 1993, "USA Today" summary
of their account).

These three cases represent a microcosm of the worldwide
community of victims of the UFO-E.T. abduction experience, a
criminal activity that shows no sign of abating. Like any other
victim (and potential victim) of civil-rights violation, they
deserve your agency's immediate, direct investigative and
remedial intervention against this insidious and pervasive form
of cosmic terrorism.

Accordingly, on their behalf, and on behalf of the hundreds (if
not thousands) of other citizens similarly abused by these
perpetrators yet to be apprehended and brought to justice, I ask
that your section immediately create a special UFO-E.T.-
  Abduction Task Force to help monitor, analyze, report upon, and
counter current/future cases of UFO-E.T. abduction throughout
the United States. Please note that this, the ultimate form of
human-trafficking (as condemned and prohibited by the
Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000), gives added urgency
for you to create the proposed task force.

As you begin applying all available civil-rights enforcement
resources to the Task Force's operation, I ask that you identify
for me the principal point of contact in your division to whom I
may refer certain private parties specializing in this field of
public-interest research.

In the meantime, as further background on the scope and depth of
this civil-rights-depriving invasion/terrorism, I refer you to
the book "Taken: Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda," an
anthology of first-person accounts compiled by the late Karla
Turner (who includes her own family's experience). This book has
inspired a Cable-TV mini-series, by the same title, produced by
Steven Spielberg for airing in December 2002.

Thank you for helping coordinate this long-overdue intervention
into such an officially neglected area of criminality.



               LARRY W. BRYANT
               Director, Washington, D.C., Office of
               Citizens Against UFO Secrecy

P. S. I'm snail-mailing to you a signed printout of this e-
message-formatted letter, along with its enclosures.

Copies furnished to:

Chairman, U. S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary

Chairman, U. S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

Secretary-General of the United Nations (ATTN: Chairman of the
Commission on Crime Prevention)

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights

Director, UN Office for Outer Space Affairs

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief for the website of
http://www.ufocity.com







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   Jun > Jun 9

               Re: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Gross

From: Patrick Gross <Pgrsel@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 07:13:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:01:36 -0400
Subject: Re:  NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Gross


 >From: Gregory Gutierez <greguti@free.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 00:37:06 +0200
 >Subject: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy?

 >In France few ufologists know about Bigelow's NIDS.

<snip>

Hello Gregory, List,

At least I know the existence of NIDS, the dozen or so of French
Ufologists, I personally know, are also aware of the existence of
NIDS.

In in my opinion it is possible that most French ufologist know
about it. Maybe we should inform those who don't?


Patrick Gross

France
http://www.chez.com/lesovnis/indexe.htm








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   Jun > Jun 9

               Re: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 13:31:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:04:10 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy? - Hall


 >From: Gregory Gutierez <greguti@free.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 00:37:06 +0200
 >Subject: NIDS & Bigelow Why The Controversy?

<snip>

 >What exactly are the criticisms about NIDS or Bigelow?

 >I learned about what Richard Hall said, recently, that Bigelow
 >tried to buy personal testimonies of abductions from someone in
 >MUFON. Is there anything else against NIDS?

Gregory,

For the record, Richard Hall did not say anything about the
sales of abduction materials to Bigelow. That was more a
criticism of the seller, not the buyer, anyway.

But I did comment on Bigelow's agenda-driven activities and his
reputation among many people who have tried to work with him.

NIDS (with Bigelow's money) has done some good work. In fact, it
was Biglow's foundation that sponsored my writing of The UFO
Evidence, Volume II, as is credited in the acknowledgments.

  - Richard Hall









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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Ecker

From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 07:08:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:09:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Ecker


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
 >To: <Ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:23:51 -0700

<snip>

 >>Now Bill Hamilton... what the hell is inaccurate? Shovel it out
 >>Pal, or just admit you got taken... again.

 >Hey, Pal, this is the attitude that doesn't get us anywhere in
 >this field. I will only post the info once I have it all
 >correct.

 >I am not taken by anything because everything is provisional
 >with me. The trouble is everything is conclusive with you.

 >-Bill H


Ah, can we say "Spin", Boys and Girls?

Thanks Bill, I do believe you made my point for me. You made the
statement that the Kirkwood/Noel expose has inaccuracies but you
fail to point them out, then claim you are still investigating?

I see, then what we have is Ufology by your proclamation? The
facts I stated in my article you claim are inaccurate but you
can't or will not point them out... hmmmm... possibly none
to point out?

Which leaves the possiblity you were taken in.... again?


Don Ecker

UFO Magazine
www.ufomag.com






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   Jun > Jun 9

                        Alfred's Odd Observation #17

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:51:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:11:11 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #17


Alfred's Odd Observation #17 (Saturday -- June 8, 2002)

Outside visibility here in oppressive Alabama has been as
transparent as a dirty buttermilk-glass, the humidity as
overbearing as Nipple-napper Ashcroft's justice department, and
all the effects of global warming are centered, seemingly,
squarely on my exact geographic coordinates! Only the bugs are
held in magical abeyance by the Bounce rag; however, or I would
assuredly be driven indoors.

Still, they fly.

Oh admittedly, they don't fly grandly, conclusively, or even
brilliantly of late... Still, they fly.

And it's a taste ironic for me as, lately, there's a lot of
impassioned discussion about UFOs all going "away", going "out",
or going "beyond." "Abductions are decreasing," some
pontificate. "Sightings are down," others pronounce. Forgetting
for a moment that this gets the CSICOP Youngbob/Sheaffer
  skeptibunkies capering around gladly like frolicking wood-
nymphs, it really only apes some kind of sweaty bandwagon many
seem to be jumping on... in some 'king-of-the-hill' attempt to
be 'first' proclaiming some 'new reality' regarding UFOs...?
  Specious stuff and turgid nonsense.

I see it as chasing a false plausible in a furtive attempt to
only 'appear' cutting edge. I see it as playing into the hands
of the transparently deceptive. I see it as pandering to the
misleading and embracing, too greedily, the flatulent
ostensible. I see it as courting the readily sophistical,
incorporating the onerous captious, or being at best shallowly
pretentious and at worst in 'evil' retrograde. It favorably
considers a falsehood, and it associates itself with the
absolute weakest of what's all too easily or most conveniently
presumable.

Sightings are "down" friends and scabrous bunkies, not because
UFOs are going away, but because there are fewer people LOOKING
for them these days! Lately, people who might otherwise be
pondering the skies are, instead, only looking over worried
shoulders for 'enemies', real AND imagined. They have no TIME
for a puzzling enigma in the skies over their heads while
staring down the suggested barrel of a terrorist's gun! All
part of the master plan (uneasily?) dismissed by Jerry Clark?

Conscious or unconscious (and given less and less protection
from already tolerated sociopaths by an authoritarian
Bush/Ashcroft administration) it's not a _completely_
unreasonable proposal. It's only a relative few that
inordinately gain as a result of our aggregate ignorance, after
all. Sociopaths ARE. Socipathy IS. Discount them and the
conspiracies they busily precipitate, at peril.

Let me assure the interested reader that sightings are not down,
abductions are not decreasing in frequency, and the artless
bunch over at CSICOP has no hint of vindication what-so-ever.
Youngbob and Robert Sheaffer should cease their tiresome
capering and return to their think-cloaks, nineteenth century
runes, and outdated CSICOPian Newtonics. The universe continues
to resonate with a 'quality' of life undreamed by them as
strange moving lights unsteadily traverse a steady starfield to
MOCK the cast aspersions of those that would wish them away.
Rock the head back to a crisp night sky with a modicum of
revealing patience and be rewarded with proof of the larger
reality that _will_ be there.

These occurrences that the mainstream will only trifle with come
in 'WAVES' that even a conflicted mainstream cannot ignore
without blowing its cover (its facade or thin veneer of
pretended rationality or open-mindedness). These waves are
_well_ referenced by Ruppelt, Hynek, and Vallee in decades of
literature. They've been going on since time in memorial and are
captured on non-faked film, recorded in credible historical ink,
and chiseled into ancient and unyielding stone.  These waves are
likely older than our DIRT!

The history of UFOs truly parallels our human history. Though it
is decried, minimized, and derided by our suspicious social
convention, the facts of their existence creep out around the
edges of the coffin lid that the garden variety CSICOPian
employs to contain them. This should give us all _more_ than
mere pause to entertain a suspicion that some larger reality is
being denied every one of us. _Something_ certainly is.

UFOs are valid, it is our mainstream denial of them that is not.
Evidence of them abounds; verily, it gushes from founts. It is
photographic, historical, credibly anecdotal, and very personal
for many of us. It flies in the face of the denial of it. Only
the irrational fear of a knee-jerk reactionary, culturally
conflicted, and philosophically myopic leadership would deny the
patently obvious. UFO's are real. They exist and have existed
since before the first human being banged one rock against the
other. We are _not_ alone. Everything _else_ is a fantasy,
ironically -- a concoction, invention, or convenient illusion.

That's enough. I remain watching our skies. Read on.


~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.










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                  Re-Organiztion Of U.S. Security Agencies

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 10:06:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:14:27 -0400
Subject: Re-Organiztion Of U.S. Security Agencies


Hello List,

As you know, there will probably be a lot of re-shuffling of
duties and personnel among various U.S. security agencies after,
or if, the Dept. of Homeland Security is okayed.

So I was wondering if those of you who are experienced in
researching some of these agencies and trying to get documents
from them via the FOIA have any thoughts on this?

Since the NSA is one of the agencies to be absorbed into the new
department, isn't there a better chance than usual that some
'beyond top secret' documents will get relocated and perhaps
exposed a bit? Or some senior employees who know a lot may be
let off, and then perhaps decide it's time to let out some
secrets, etc.?

Or do you think this will instead merely lead to extra document
shredding?

I did hear on the news this morning, if I recall right, that NSA
is taking this opportunity to declare how important it is that
all their personnel maintain the highest secrecy "standards."


Regards,

Jim Deardorff








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                       HUFOBCC: Smithers B.C. Sighting

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:23:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:16:47 -0400
Subject: HUFOBCC: Smithers B.C. Sighting


Hi List

I just received a fax an hour ago about a sighting three
witnesses saw over Hudson Bay mountain in Smithers, British
Columbia. I have already telephoned the folks and will be
meeting them Sunday to take a interview from them. Also I will
grab some pictures of the area while there. Also on the faxed
sheet there is a small diagram showing where the objects were
around the mountain.

Take care

Brian

Smithers, British Columbia

Date: June 1, 2002
Time: 11:00 p.m.

 From the faxed letter:

We would like to report that we observed two UFOs hovering above
and south of the south peak of Hudson bay Mountain at approx:
11:00 p.m., Saturday, June 1, 2002. The objects looked like very
bright stars and appeared to be stationary, but when we
continued to observe them it was apparent that both were moving
very slowly towards the north. They did not flash or move
quickly like satellites or normal aircraft and they were to
bright and too fast moving to be stars

The UFOs were visible from downtown Smithers and from our
residence near Seymour Lake. They were not there the next night
at the same time. Can you give us more information on these
objects or tell us who we can contact for more information ?

Thank you (names deleted)







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                                  Got Sack?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:51:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:20:08 -0400
Subject: Got Sack?


It's hard for me to be anything other than angry, really, as I
key this, especially as I consider the "hit" and disengage"
tactics of the shamelessly officious authoritarians among us --
  those that write insipidly on the insipidly accused and become
insipid themselves, those outraged accusers of ad hominum (but
ironically first to practice it), and the reactionary 'sneering'
who use stodgy rationalization to engineer a deceptive last word
in the never-ending debate (and _weak_ stodgy rationalization at
that).

"Time or inclination", indeed. "Lame", indeed. "Unscientific",
indeed. "Fringe", indeed.

Jim Mortellero was impugned, roundly castigated, actively
campaigned against, and _not_ a little humiliated when he tried
to share his story and contribution with us here on UpDates
(SDI) several weeks ago. He knew he was going to have a rough
row to hoe going in, of course, given the excessive 'conviction'
of his angered opposition, but he had convinced himself that he
had a definite and TRULY substantive contribution to make. He
pressed BACK! The guy's got _sack_!

I recently heard him on the Jeff Rense show (Thursday night on
the sixth. Errol gave us all a heads up on last weeks SDI ), and
every indication _is_ that Jeff Rense, and (did I hear this
correctly ?) ...two of the worlds three most _important_
abduction researchers, Budd Hopkins and Dr. David Jacobs (the
third, I think, is just otherwise engaged, as yet) ...are _very_
interested in Jim's aforementioned contribution. Additionally,
the audio tape of his chemical regression, a regression
voluntarily performed in an attempt to find out what _assaulted_
him during the five plus hours of missing time he recently
experienced (!)and which a 911 call would confirm (reflexively
dismissed here as the mechanism of an inept hoax) .has _some_
citation from the discreet medical team which performed it. Still
more, Jeff Rense is aware of sources on this medical team who
confirm key aspects of the story as told (and more... oh and
more...!), as is one (still unnamed) principal researcher at
UpDates (c'mon out! [g]), and finally by the well respected Mr.
Hopkins himself. Everyone's 'talking' to everyone else... That is
unusual all by itself!

Let's sum up. There seems to be an 'initiative' offered... (that
is grounded in science, is the providence of a diverse
collection of professionally oriented individuals of some note,
and which is actively engaged by _the_ most respected
individuals in the field...) promising to give abduction
research a real shot in its enigmatic ASS! .Seems to _this_
writer like some impressed golf clapping should be going up all
around, but it's not... on the contrary,  it sounds like Daffy
Duck in here, just sliding out onto an abruptly silent stage
after Bugs has exited... Listen a moment and hear the crickets.
What's up with that? One would think we're not _really_
interested in this 'thing' we purportedly investigate.

Additionally, I've missed Jim's literary contributions in here,
to be sure, as I've learned to admire _anyone_ willing to
challenge the, largely ineffective, ufological status quo (or
question the suspect mainstream), and someone willing to
overturn the covering rocks instead of pronouncing what CANNOT
be under them just warms my freaking cockles (whatever the hell
_they_ are). In as much as Jim's claims have achieved at _least_
enough vindication to counter the specious pronouncements made
against them, can some of these principals see it in their
hearts to invite him back so he can continue his literary
contribution to the ongoing aggregate of UpDates effort? _I_
miss his public input, and in as much as it seems he might be a
little closer to the sweet vein than noted others have indicated
(or that noted others even are!), perhaps his input has more
value than has been otherwise whispered, and he could be
persuaded to take an active part in it once again. Truly, even
an ardent detractor owes him an apology, forthcoming or not, at
this juncture.

Consider: Jim Mortellero may be unique in that he stands to make
a major contribution to abduction research while selected of the
the most outspoken abductees are arguably "lined up" against
him! This is forgetting that it just may be that he is the
'realest' thing ufology has going on right now! For that reason
_alone_ this community should think twice before driving him off
too far . Ironic really when he wanted to give this whole thing
(the same thing!) to Errol and those with an alleged interest in
broad horizoned abduction research right here at UpDates... the
unfortunate result of "once burned, twice shy", or something
more sinister?

I've admonished him to come back on myself, but he thinks that
it might be inappropriate given the viciousness of the
opposition that he seems to generate. He sees himself as a
detraction and distraction to an effort that he would otherwise
have a lot of respect for; he doesn't want to be the cause of,
or facilitate, a continued non-productive divergence or
corrosive digression; he wants the truth. ...As sappy,
unsophisticated, and juvenile as that sounds? He just wants the
truth. That's all it ever was. Like I said: Jim's got _sack_!

That's a dwindling commodity lately, good ladies and
gentlebunkies, as the best of us chases after a canted
mainstream that will _never_ accept them and the worst of us use
that chase as an opportunity to wear their more honorable
opposition down; let's reverse an egregious trend and welcome
'sack' back into the community.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."







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   Jun > Jun 9

                 Re: Two Anniversaries This Week - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:36:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:23:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Two Anniversaries This Week - Balaskas


 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:47:57 +0100
 >Subject: Two Anniversaries This Week

 >Morning All

 >I don't know how may of you you noticed, but two anniversaries
 >happened this week.

 >On June 5th 1969 Neil Armstrong put his best foot forward, and
 >was the first man to step onto the moon.

 >On June 4th 1977 the first interstellar craft where launched,
 >Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 hit the skies.

<snip>

Good day Sean!

Missed anniversaries? Oh yeah...

Maybe you should have had that cup of coffee first after you
woke up and before you started to press the keys on your
computer.

For the record, the day you wrote your e-mail to UFO UpDates was
my birthday, but that is okay if you forgot.  ;o)

Apollo 11 blasted off to the Moon on July 17 (I remember since
that is my younger sister's birthday) and Neil did not place his
foot on the Moon until July 20 (not June 5), 1969.

As for the two spacecraft you mentioned, Voyager 2 was launched
on August 20 (I remember this too since that is my older
sister's birthday) and Voyager 1 was launched a few days later
on September 5 (not June 4), 1977.

Finally, Pioneer 10 (launched March 2, 1972) and Pioneer 11
(launched April 5, 1973) preceeded the launch of the two Voyager
spacecraft and, although not as fast as them, were the first
"interstellar" spacecraft launched from Earth (at least in
modern times...).


Nick Balaskas








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   Jun > Jun 9

                                 Lazar Movie

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 00:45:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:27:52 -0400
Subject: Lazar Movie


I've had the following letter from Graham Birdsall, editor of
the UK UFO Magazine with some interesting background on Bruce
Burgess and his new Lazar movie.

Regards

Dave Haith


CORRESPONDENCE TO: David Haith
E-mail: visions@ntlworld.com

Date: 6 June 2002

To: Dave Haith

Subject: New Lazar movie

Dear Dave,

I was interested to learn that Bob Lazar has signed a deal with
UK based Bluebook Films to turn his story into a feature film.
More so when it was stated that Bluebook Films founder, Bruce
Burgess, 'is the only one to date that is truly making an effort
to stick to the facts and not create just another Hollywood
fantasy.'

You close by stating: 'Going up against the big boys in
Hollywood is quite a task... my hat's off to Bruce for the
attempt.'

I first met Bruce Burgess in 1996-97, when he was head of the
London-based TransMedia. We worked on the award winning factual
TV documentary 'Dreamland', commissioned by BSKYB.

Bruce was both presenter and narrator. 'Dreamland' told the
story of 'Area 51' and thanks to the efforts of award-winning
cameraman, current affairs and documentary film-maker Sebastian
Rich, we saw the closest-ever shots of Groom Lake. People may
recall that it was this documentary which saw Bruce hire a light
aircraft to penetrate the restricted 'No Fly' zone around Groom
Lake, only to be warned off by two jet fighters that came
perilously close to shaving their wing-tips.

Shortly after, Nick Pope and I acted as consultants in the
production of five UFO-related documentaries. During a 10-day
visit to Brazil, I assisted TransMedia in their re-telling of
the Varginha Incident. Bruce visited Varginha for himself and I
have to say that the end-result was a truly superb documentary.
For example, the re-staging of the moment when Brazilian
military entered woods to capture one of the alleged alien
creatures was undertaken at Elstree Studios.

In late 1999, I teamed up with Bruce again. TransMedia had been
sold off and he was now an independent producer. Bruce expressed
a genuine desire to produce a documentary based on recently
acquired NASA space shuttle images - which he spent an entire
day viewing - and which depicted some extraordinary anomalous
activity.

However, on the eve of departing to America, and with the sum of
=A370,000 raised for its production, Bruce sent us a fax (we were
in America at the time) to inform us that it had been cancelled.

The only reason he put forward for this sudden change of heart
was that noted sceptic, James Oberg, had persuaded him that all
of the aforementioned anomalous activity could be readily
explained as 'ice crystals' etc. Having previously agreed that
the footage was 'newsworthy'in every respect, Bruce's decision
came as a bolt from the blue.

Interestingly, Bruce was not averse to including scathing and
critical comments levelled against Bob Lazar in the 'Dreamland'
documentary. I refer specifically to remarks issued by Stanton
T. Friedman, who alluded to Lazar's proven non-academic and
scientific background, which patently cast a huge question mark
over his credibility.

But unlike criticism he readily accepted from James Oberg, a
somewhat different criteria appears to have been applied in this
instance. Nonetheless, it will be interesting indeed to discover
how Bruce intends to deal with, or negotiate around Friedman's
scathing remarks.

In light of this, and my own personal experience and involvement
with Bruce Burgess, I would extend nothing more than a guarded
welcome to his latest enterprise. All the same, I wish him and
the production well.


Yours faithfully,

Graham W. Birdsall
Editor, UFO Magazine

* Please feel free to post to relevant parties











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   Jun > Jun 9

                       Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:30:34 -0400
Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?


So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

Kreskin ends up looking stupid and irresponsible and he's
$50,000 dollars out of pocket - that's if he really does donate
the money to a charity. So what has he really gained?

Why on earth should a man risk his professional reputation for
absolutely no benefit and much loss?

Perhaps the deeper question is : Was he duped by 'friends' in
the intel community - and if so why?

I wondered if he'd been tipped off that some of the craft at
Area 51 nearby were about to show themselves.......but he was
fed a lie.

Why does a man willingly destroy his lifetime career on live
national radio and TV unless he's being duped by somebody else?

The other alternative for you conspiracy buffs is that he is
happy to cough up $50,000 because he's being paid $200,000 by
some shadow government to lay on this hoax.

With what purpose?

Basically to discredit UFOs as reality. Every time there's a
hoax like this, millions of people buy in to the idea 'Ufos?
they're all hoaxes' - worth quite a lot to those who don't want
us to know, perhaps?

Either way I reckon there's more to this story that meets the
eye.....


Regards

Dave Haith








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   Jun > Jun 9

                            Did 'ET' stalk Bush?

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:57:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:36:51 -0400
Subject: Did 'ET' stalk Bush?


Did ET stalk Bush? ...No says Hoagland

There's been a lot of internet hype over the 'UFOs' that turned
up for the latest 'homeland security' speech by President Bush.
See here:

http://www.rense.com/general25/eyb.htm

Videos here:

http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/jdrive/ter060602_bush.rm?mode=compact

http://www.msnbc.com/news/762744.asp

But the man who sees a face on Mars refuses to see UFOs peeping
through the White House windows!

In an e-mail, to me, that he's agreed for me to post, Richard
Hoagland says:


"This one has a _simple_ explanation.....

For this latest address, the White House - for whatever reason -
  - repositioned the President in the White House away from his
usual TV locations. The speech was NOT given from the Oval
Office, nor from a podium in the East Room looking west, down
the main "Cross Hall" of the White House, but from in front of
the door to the Blue Room, facing the north entrance of the
White House.

That columned reception area has room for a lot of people,
cameras, lights, etc., which is probably why it was chosen this
particular night.

The result was that during the broadcast, the pool camera was
looking past the President, through the open double oak doors of
the Blue Room... toward the colonnade of windows which face
South from the White House... past the Washington Monument...
directly toward Reagan National Airport!

The mysterious 'UFOs' seen intermittently during the ten minute
address were nothing more than aircraft leaving Reagan, rising
into the evening sunset sky... and turning to head West.....

The geometry is perfect. It was Reagan National Airport,
alright. Just get a large on-line map of Washington, plot a line
from the middle of the White House (where the Blue Room 's
center window is located -- where they placed the President) due
south ... and you'll come right to Reagan.

Simple."

So there you are folks - the White House UFO explained - unless
you know differently.....

As for the person who was putting round the net that it was a
street light... since when do street lights _move_?


Cheers

Dave Haith
visions@ntlworld.com








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   Jun > Jun 9

             Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area -

From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:54:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area -


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: <news@lorencoleman.com>
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:57:14 -0400
 >Subject: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area

 >STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

 >SOURCE: Diario "La Arena" (La Pampa, Argentina)
 >DATE: O6-06-02

 >STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

 >GENERAL ACHA (DNA) -- The presence of a "dwarf" or "green
 >midget" wandering the backyards of many neighborhoods in General
 >Acha has been the latest subject of conversation. It appears to
 >be a short, green entity which runs away with haste when
 >detected.


Dear List:

This "dwarf" situation is similar to what took place here in
Utah at the time of the founding of Ft Bridger.

In fact, it was Bridger himself, who made the remark about
finding this 'tribe' of small, smelly people, who, he said, were
the Northern Paiutes.

They only ate corn which they got from the local Indians and
lived in "holes" in the ground. They left shortly before the
main force of 'white people' made it to the area.


Jean M.






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   Jun > Jun 9

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:18:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:59:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial



 >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 05:13:27 -0400
 >Subject: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >According to the enclosed F.B.I. memorandum of Jan. 18, 1967, a
 >citizen of Chesapeake, Va., experienced an episode of UFO-E.T.
 >abduction -- complete with such classic elements as the
 >description of his alien abductors and the ensuing period of
 >"missing time."

 >Likewise, a few years ago, a Northern Virginia resident, who
 >happens to be a serial victim of the UFO-E.T. abduction
 >experience, re-encountered several UFO-borne perpetrators in
 >Fauquier County, where she duly has filed a report with a
 >sheriff's deputy (see enclosed copy of her related May 3, 2000,
 >affidavit).

Please, Larry, can you post here (or send me privately) the data
about these two cases.


Thanks in advance,

Luis R. Gonzalez Manso








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                     Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:13:36 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:28:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?


Does anyone know if Kreskin is a CSICOP-ian?
I wouldn't be surprised.

-Chaz








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                           Re: Lazar Movie - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 03:35:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:30:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Lazar Movie - McCoy


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 00:45:37 +0100
 >Subject: Lazar Movie


 >Date: 6 June 2002

As a former pro pilot, and having had to avoid the various and
sundry Restricted areas north of Los Vegas,even while on a
Retardant Drop (no, they don't make exceptions) this bit is B.S.
(like Lazar's story)

 >Bruce was both presenter and narrator. 'Dreamland' told the
 >story of 'Area 51' and thanks to the efforts of award-winning
 >cameraman, current affairs and documentary film-maker Sebastian
 >Rich, we saw the closest-ever shots of Groom Lake. People may
 >recall that it was this documentary which saw Bruce hire a
light >aircraft to penetrate the restricted 'No Fly' zone around
Groom >Lake, only to be warned off by two jet fighters that came
 >.perilously close to shaving their wing-tips.

Damn lucky they weren't shot down, deserved it too,IMHO, also
they put others in Danger- too the lives of the fighter pilots,
and any other aircraft that was in the area around the
Resritcted Airspace. Including me.


GT McCoy










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   Jun > Jun 9

                   CCCRN News: 'Signs' Crop Circle Contest

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:48:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:32:08 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: 'Signs' Crop Circle Contest


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

June 9, 2002

_____________________________


'SIGNS' CROP CIRCLE CONTEST

Just received (press release below)...

In light of circulating rumours regarding Disney/Touchstone
Pictures possibly having 'many' commissioned fake crop
formations being made worldwide (?) to promote the upcoming
'Signs' movie. I personally doubt they would go to those lengths
to promote a single movie (an apparently typical Hollywood
'alien invasion' type flick according to reviews from advanced
screenings), unless there is a larger agenda afoot to further
debunk the whole phenomenon, but it is interesting how they
could apparently 'promise' to be able to whisk the winner away
to the latest 'real' formation in the USA complete with 'strange
events' unless they perhaps had one ready-made and waiting...
Disney had earlier publicly denied they would be having any
formations made to promote the film.

If a man-made formation is commissioned to be made for the
openly _stated purpose_ of being used in a film, commercial or
contest, with a farmer's permission, etc., fine. If though such
a formation were to be 'passed off' as a real one for publicity
purposes, that is irresponsible, although it should be
relatively easy to find out which ones they were, as Disney
would have legally required the farmer's consent.

Question is, what are Disney's intentions by doing this? Just
pure entertainment or something else? While the film certainly
will help make more people aware of the phenomenon, the
portrayal of 'evil aliens' being the cause doesn't help serious
research, although as someone pointed out, most of the public
now thinks this is mostly nonsense anyway, thanks to some ill-
conceived documentaries in recent years. That being said, we
should remember this is Hollywood entertainment, not a
documentary. Our focus should continue to be the investigation
of the phenomenon itself and not get too wrapped up in
associated sideline entertainment. The possible danger though is
that such 'promo formations', if done, could be used to further
the idea in the public's mind that the entire phenomenon is
nothing but man-made hoaxes and land art, and for that reason we
should at least keep an eye on developments like this.

http://www.signs.movies.com/sweeps

First reviews of 'Signs' here:
http://www.swirlednews.com/article.asp?artID=3D405

(Seems that the new UK film also about the crop circle phenomenon,
'A Place to Stay', is a much better choice):
http://aplacetostay.biz/



May 23, 2002 12:43 ET

Is it a Sign? Win Touchstone Pictures' "'Signs' - Destination:
Unknown" Sweepstakes and Find Out

BURBANK, Calif., May 23 /PRNewswire/ -- For years, the signs
have been appearing. From now until June 30th, audiences will
have a chance to explore their meaning.

So far this year, four crop signs have mysteriously appeared in
farms around the world, with 280-300 expected by the end of the
year. Most will appear this July and August -- it is not unusual
for three or four to emerge suddenly in a single day during the
summer months -- and now, moviegoers will have a chance to see
these unexplained phenomena up close.

In anticipation of Touchstone Pictures' "Signs," the upcoming
thriller from writer-director M. Night Shyamalan, moviegoers can
enter the "'Signs' - Destination: Unknown" sweepstakes. One
lucky winner and guest will be flown to the site of the next
crop sign occurrence in the continental United States. While
there, the winner will record all the strange events on digital
video and still camera equipment (provided by Ritz Camera), take
a helicopter tour of the site, and get up close in an SUV. The
winner will stay two nights in first-class accommodations, and
once home, share all the extraordinary happenings with the world
via Yahoo! Movies.

To enter the contest, web surfers can point their browsers to
signs.movies.com/sweeps.

Everything that farmer Graham Hess (MEL GIBSON) assumed about
the world is changed when he discovers a message -- an intricate
pattern of circles and lines -- carved into his crops. As he
investigates the unfolding mystery, what he finds will forever
alter the lives of his brother (JOAQUIN PHOENIX) and children
(RORY CULKIN, ABIGAIL BRESLIN). Writer-director M. Night
Shyamalan takes moviegoers on a new journey this August with his
film "Signs," a unique story that explores the mysterious real-
life phenomena of crop signs and the effects they have on one
man and his family. Shyamalan re-teams with producers Sam
Mercer, Frank Marshall, and Kathleen Kennedy, and produces the
project under his Blinding Edge Pictures banner along with
Touchstone Pictures.

The official website for Touchstone Pictures' "Signs" is
signs.movies.com. The film will be released nationwide on August
2nd.

For more information, please contact: Heidi Trotta, Senior Vice
President, Publicity, The Walt Disney Studios, +1-818-560-7280.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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                 Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:50:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:34:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hatch


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

 >Kreskin ends up looking stupid and irresponsible and he's
 >$50,000 dollars out of pocket - that's if he really does donate
 >the money to a charity. So what has he really gained?

 >Why on earth should a man risk his professional reputation for
 >absolutely no benefit and much loss?

 >Perhaps the deeper question is : Was he duped by 'friends' in
 >the intel community - and if so why?

 >I wondered if he'd been tipped off that some of the craft at
 >Area 51 nearby were about to show themselves.......but he was
 >fed a lie.

 >Why does a man willingly destroy his lifetime career on live
 >national radio and TV unless he's being duped by somebody else?

 >The other alternative for you conspiracy buffs is that he is
 >happy to cough up $50,000 because he's being paid $200,000 by
 >some shadow government to lay on this hoax.

 >With what purpose?

 >Basically to discredit UFOs as reality. Every time there's a
 >hoax like this, millions of people buy in to the idea 'Ufos?
 >they're all hoaxes' - worth quite a lot to those who don't want
 >us to know, perhaps?

 >Either way I reckon there's more to this story that meets the
 >eye.....



Hello Dave:

Even Art Bell was asking the same thing: Why?

I sure don't know, but there must be at least two reasons: a
good one, and the real one.

What I do _not_ see happening is some agency paying Kreskin many
many thousands just to discredit UFOs and ufology.

Kreskin speaks for neither. Kreskin bills himself as a
"mentalist", a sort of cross between a mind-reader and a Uri
Geller without the bent brass keys. The only thing discredited
is the Kreskin dog and pony show, not UFOs in particular nor in
general.

If some group or agency wanted to discredit UFO studies, they
could do so _far_ more cheaply, easily and effectively by simply
encouraging some of the more credulous individuals within our
own ranks; feeding them false leads etc.

This still leaves us with the mystery of Kreskin's motivations
of course. I would like to hear anything he has to say about
it, but lots of luck.

Whenever Art Bell tried to pin him down for details, he turned
into a verbal osterizer, changing the subject with an oily ease
that might make Hoagland envious.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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             Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area -

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:01:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:37:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area -


 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area

 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: <news@lorencoleman.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:57:14 -0400
 >>Subject: Strange 'Dwarf' Reported In Cattle Mute Area

 >>STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

 >>SOURCE: Diario "La Arena" (La Pampa, Argentina)
 >>DATE: O6-06-02

 >>STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

 >>GENERAL ACHA (DNA) -- The presence of a "dwarf" or "green
 >>midget" wandering the backyards of many neighborhoods in General
 >>Acha has been the latest subject of conversation. It appears to
 >>be a short, green entity which runs away with haste when
 >>detected.

 >Dear List:

 >This "dwarf" situation is similar to what took place here in
 >Utah at the time of the founding of Ft Bridger.

Well, the Northern Paiutes were at one time ubiquitous in the
West. There is an arrow pile left by those folks near Lakeview,
Oregon, that covers roughly an acre. They suddenly disappeared.
There is a lot of pottery, arrowheads etc. left by them. I went
on a couple of digs looking for evidence of a camp when I was on
an anthropology course back in the early 70's.

 >In fact, it was Bridger himself, who made the remark about
 >finding this 'tribe' of small, smelly people, who, he said, were
 >the Northern Paiutes.

I don't recall him saying they were green, however. <g>

 >They only ate corn which they got from the local Indians and
 >lived in "holes" in the ground. They left shortly before the
 >main force of 'white people' made it to the area.

Well, Jim was given to ah, embellishing a good story. however he
may have run into the reminant of the Northern Paiutes, there
was good evidence that they were in decline before the white man
came.


GT McCoy







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   Jun > Jun 9

                  Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 21:20:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:39:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hall


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

<snip>

 >Either way I reckon there's more to this story that meets the
 >eye.....


Dave,

Kreskin has done himself no harm whatsoever. He's in show biz,
and has just had a zillion dollars worth of free publicity.
Haven't you heard of the show biz [non]principle: 'I don't care
what you call me, just spell my name right?'

- Dick Hall








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   Jun > Jun 9

                 Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:56:50 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:41:12 -0400
Subject: Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders


Source: Las Vegas Sun, June 7, 2002,

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/lv-
other/2002/jun/07/513550514.html

Stig

***

June 07, 2002

Silverton UFO sightings in the eyes of the beholders

By Mary Manning
<manning@lasvegassun.com>
LAS VEGAS SUN

**

John Darger and his family came all the way from Salt Lake City
to catch a glimpse of a UFO predicted to appear in Las Vegas on
Thursday.

"We're in Vegas," Darger said. "What are the odds? Not good."

Darger, a building contractor, is a skeptic and an amateur
hypnotist and knows the tricks of the trade. But he said he was
willing to give mentalist Kreskin a chance to pull a flying
saucer out of the night sky.

The Amazing Kreskin, also known as George Joseph Kresge Jr.,
attracted about 300 people Thursday night to a dark desert lot
behind the Silverton hotel at Interstate 15 and Blue Diamond
Road.

The mentalist and entertainer had predicted that one of the
largest UFO sightings in recorded history would take place in
Nevada's desert in either May or June. Kreskin was so certain,
he promised that if nothing was sighted, then he would donate
$50,000 to charity.

But in the end Kreskin, who says he's not a psychic, never
expected to see anything otherworldly himself. He planned to
plant the idea in the minds of the audience to see alien objects
in the sky.

"It's not going to hurt you, it's not going to jeopardize you,"
he told the crowd in the showroom before the sightings. "It's
going to be fulfilling. It will be real to you, but it will be
subjective.

"You are part of a gigantic experiment. Damn it, some of the
members of the intelligence community better raise their
intelligence."

The crowd headed outside, and at the drop of a hanky from the
67- year-old magical entertainer, the spectacle began. Kreskin
waded into the crowd, waiting for signs of other-worldly
activity.

People saw what they wanted to see, he said, adding he could not
believe what people reported. "A woman cried for 11 minutes. She
said she was not upset, but overwhelmed," he said.

He said he comforted the woman.

Nine men told Kreskin they saw a cloud with a strange color to
it.

Shortly after 10 p.m., red and green lights began blinking in
the dark sky.

That wasn't too surprising, however, since people had gathered
under a flight path to McCarran International Airport. Four jets
streamed toward the expectant crowd.

And a total of 30 satellites, a rocket launch in Southern
California and a moonless night added to mysterious moving
lights in the sky.

No sooner had the green and red lights appeared, than some of
the people in the crowd began reacting.

"You may not be able to see anything," one woman cried, pointing
straight above her head, "but I can feel its presence."

Another woman grabbed Kreskin's arm and cried, "I saw a green
ship!"

But there were skeptics in the crowd.

"May the farce be with you," said Derek Christiansen, a budding
writer, more interested in people's reactions on the ground than
anything in the air.

Three children played in the sand, ignoring adults playing mind
games above them.

Some people brought lawn chairs and watched the action with cold
beers in hand.

Many had come prepared for something to happen. "I'm an
abductee," Las Vegas resident Ginger Thompson said of a previous
trip she said she took on an outer space ship. "I was really
hoping for something."

Kreskin said the fact that people believed they saw UFOs proved
his point, and said he would not make the donation to charity.

He had an agenda in the announcement, he said, and it was more
than the publicity he received.

Since Sept. 11 he has realized that mind control such as he
practices could be used on the masses, and perhaps for evil,
Kreskin said.

"I want to share with the world the techniques of terrorism,
something we are not ready to combat," he said.

"Imagine how easy it would be if promises are made by some evil
dictator, a false messiah, another Hitler.

"I planted the seed," he said. "Imagine how a person, especially
today with mass communication, a person would cause people to
talk about it and spread it. I am ready to go on national
television to get a million people to act within 90 seconds. God
forbid a person doing it for half an hour or an hour."

That serious message escaped the believers, who enjoyed post-
  sighting euphoria as they left the casino clutching aliens made
out of green balloons.

"I can't wait to see those aliens," Las Vegas resident Joyce
Schweikert said.

John Darger gathered some of his seven children around him as
the crowd broke up about 10:30 p.m. "I'm going home tomorrow,
but it was fun and the truth is still out there."

**

All contents =A9 1996 - 2002 Las Vegas Sun, Inc.






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   Jun > Jun 9

                     Was It A UFO? Kreskin, Crupi Differ

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:12:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:43:24 -0400
Subject: Was It A UFO? Kreskin, Crupi Differ


Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal,

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2002/Jun-09-Sun-2002/news/18882951.html

Stig

***

Sunday, June 09, 2002
Copyright =A9 Las Vegas Review-Journal

COLUMN: Norm!

Was it a UFO? Kreskin, Crupi differ

The Amazing Kreskin and KVBC-TV, Channel 3 reporter Steve Crupi
have different interpretations of what happened.

**

Kreskin, who had predicted a major UFO sighting would occur
Thursday, claims he is so shaken by what happened that, "I will
never do this kind of scenario again."

A skeptical Crupi isn't buying it. He videoed what Kreskin is
claiming to be a sighting about 11 p.m. Thursday near the
Silverton, where Kreskin is appearing.

"Kreskin got up and gave a little speech and tried to hypnotize
the crowd," Crupi said. "Some people who are susceptible
honestly believe they saw some things out there.''

More than three dozen people became hysterical, according to
Kreskin. The gathering -- Kreskin estimates it at 1,000 to
1,500; Crupi at 300 to 500 -- had all but dispersed when a green
light appeared overhead.

Crupi saw the light and went live with the "sighting." "Kreskin
is using as validation that people saw things, because they
showed it on Channel 3. But it was airplanes. It was an unusual
(green) light for an airplane, I'll give them that,'' said
Crupi. "But it was in line with all the other airplanes that
were coming into McCarran at the time. We were standing almost
underneath the south and north approach pattern."

He added, "The green light was conveniently timed to coincide
with our 11 o'clock report."

Crupi added, "If he claims there were UFOs, it's bogus. If he's
claiming that people in their minds thought they saw something
they couldn't explain, then he might have a case."

Kreskin's New York-based publicist issued a release early
Friday, with the headline: "UFO Sighting Broadcast to Thousands
of Homes."

Kreskin made the prediction during a Fox network appearance in
late April and promised to turn over $50,000 to six children's
charities if it didn't occur.

"Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that the prediction
would come true," Kreskin said in the release.

<snip>

For comment or questions, please email
webmaster@lvrj.com
Copyright =A9 Las Vegas Review-Journal, 1997 - 2002








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   Jun > Jun 9

                 It's a UFO... It's A Plane... It's A Meteor

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:40:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:44:53 -0400
Subject: It's a UFO... It's A Plane... It's A Meteor


Source: Glenwood Springs Post Independent (Colorado),

http://gp.us.publicus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Avis=3DGP&Dato=3D20020607&K=
ategori=3DVALLEYNEWS&Lopenr=3D206060026&Ref=3DAR

Stig

***

June 7, 2002

*

It's a UFO ... it's a plane ... it's a meteor

Partial solar eclipse Monday evening

*

By Tamie Meck

**

If you think you saw something streak across the night sky Tuesday,
you're not alone.

Two individuals contacted the Post Independent Wednesday to report
that they had seen something unusual flash across the horizon
shortly after 10 p.m., and another reported experiencing a similar
sighting shortly after midnight.

"It was like a shooting star at first," said Dorothy Barnett, of
Battlement Mesa, who was visiting a home above Catherine Store
outside of Carbondale. "It was silver or gray, then it turned into
a fireball. It was bright orange.

"I've seen a few falling stars, but nothing like this."

Gayle Samuelson, of Spring Valley, had a similar experience. From
her perspective, the phenomenon was red, white and blue, "then it
exploded."

Kathryn Preston, of Glenwood Springs, said she was outside gazing
at the sky and looking straight up shortly after midnight Tuesday
(Wednesday morning) when she saw "a three-second tracer of orange
light, then it just disappeared.

"If I hadn't been looking up I wouldn't have seen it," she added.

"My guess is that there's probably a meteor shower and that's what
they saw," said Chris Lazo, the student services counselor at
Colorado Mountain College in Aspen and an amateur astronomer. Lazo
is also a member of the newly formed Roaring Fork Sky Watchers
astronomy club.

According to the American Meteor Society's (AMS) website,
amsmeteor.org, there are no major meteor showers occurring over the
United States at this time, but occasional sightings of meteors
anywhere in the country, day or night, aren't unusual. A meteor is
caused when a small particle of dust orbiting the sun collides with
earth's atmosphere.

Sporadic meteors, like those seen Tuesday, which are not related to
any particular meteor shower and that end in a flash or explosion,
are called "bolides." They enter the atmosphere at such a high
speed that their particles heat up, causing a glow.

People often report hearing these meteors either as a whoosh noise
or an explosive sound, or both. That phenomenon is called a
"sonic."

None of Tuesday night's sightings were heard by their witnesses.
Barnett, however, said she logged her sighting with the AMS.

A meteor shower occurs when the earth passes through the tail or
debris of a comet or other extraterrestrial object. For those
interested in seeing a meteor, the next shower in the United States
will be the Perseids meteor shower, which will occur Aug. 11-12.
According to the AMS, there will be a "nearly continuous period of
heavy meteor activity" from mid-October to mid-December of this
year, due to the Orionids (maximum visibility is Oct. 21-22), the
Taurids (Nov. 11-12), and the Leonids (Nov. 17-19) meteor showers.

The best show happens in mid-December (Dec. 13-14), with the
Geminids meteor shower. The Ursids (Dec. 22-23) shower will
complete the year's activities.

While Lazo was researching meteor shower activity on the Internet,
he came across a tidbit on a partial solar eclipse, which will
occur in this area at around sunset on Monday, June 10. From here,
the eclipse will cover between 40-60 percent of the sun. Solar
eclipses occur when the moon passes between the earth and the sun.

Don't look directly at the sun under these or any circumstances =97
not with the naked eye, and definitely not with any type of
magnification, such as binoculars or a telescope, Lazo said.
Special sun filters are available through astronomy catalogs.

Those wanting to "see" the eclipse can do so with two pieces of
white cardboard. Simply punch a small, clean pinhole in one piece
of cardboard and let the sunlight fall through that hole onto the
second piece of cardboard below, which acts as a screen. An
inverted image of the sun is formed.

To make the image larger, move the screen farther from the pinhole.
To make the image brighter, move the screen closer to the pinhole.
Do not make the pinhole wide or you will have only a shaft of
sunlight rather than an image of the crescent sun. Do not look
through the pinhole at the sun.

For those wanting to join with other sky gazers and learn more, the
Roaring Fork Sky Watchers astronomy club meets weekly, and will
gather at 7:30 p.m. tonight, Friday, June 7, at the CMC Lappala
Center parking lot in Carbondale.

The group will travel to the Spring Gulch Nordic Center parking
lot, where members will look through telescopes and discuss
extraterrestrial objects. Most objects in the sky aren't fully
visible until dark, which is at about 9:30 p.m. this time of year,
said Lazo, but there are some good planets to view before then.

For those wanting to join the group at Spring Gulch, the best time
to arrive is about 8:30 p.m. For more on the club, call Lazo at
925-3757, ext. 2440.

**

Copyright Glenwood Springs Post Independent. Materials contained
within this site may not be used without permission.







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   Jun > Jun 9

                            Davenport On Kreskin

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:50:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:46:34 -0400
Subject: Davenport On Kreskin


Source: KATU TV News Washington

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=47157

Stig

***

June 7, 2002

Lack of UFOs means $50,000 for charity

**

KENT, WA - Thousands of UFO believers watched the skies Thursday
night, waiting to see if a bold prediction by one of the world
most famous psychics came true.

According to a world famous showman called The Amazing Kreskin,
UFO's were coming the night of June 6.

He was predicting the largest UFO sighting in recorded history
in the Nevada desert outside of Las Vegas.

And if it didn't come true, the self-described 'mentalist' says
he would give $50,000 to charity.

"The type of prediction that has been made by Kreskin recently
is exactly what makes life difficult for serious minded
investigators," said Peter Davenport, the head of the Seattle-
based National UFO Reporting Center.

Davenport's Web site and hotline take hundreds of UFO reports a
day from around the world.

Davenport can only call Thursday night's prediction a publicity
stunt. "It makes life difficult for the rest us because a
rational person would probably reject this claim out of hand."

While many eyes were focused on the Desert Southwest, the
Northwest gave birth to the UFO movement.

It started back in 1947, when the pilot of a small plane
reported seeing nine shiny objects traveling at incredible
speeds near Mount Rainier.

"And the nine objects were flipping and flashing in the sun is
the way he described them," said Greg Long, the author of a book
on the pilot, Ken Arnold.

UFO sightings continue to this day. The National UFO Center says
in just the last month, strange flying objects have been
reported over Stevens Pass, Seattle, and Spokane.

But the most famous sighting came five years ago as mysterious
lights moved over Phoenix in the shape of a perfect triangle.
Thousands of people saw them. One man said it was "150 feet over
our house" and they were moving extremely fast.

But they never showed up on radar. The government later
explained them away as stray military flares.

But Davenport doesn't by that explanation, and he didn't buy
Kreskin's prediction for June 6 either "because so far as I am
aware he is not able to predict events perhaps he knows
something that I don't."

Other doubters of The Amazing Kreskin point to a missile test
launch that just happened to be scheduled for around 1 a.m. the
morning of June 7.

**

This site contains copyrighted material of Fisher
Communications, Inc. (KATU TV) which may not be copied,
distributed or re-used in any way without KATU TV's prior
written consent. KATU TV trademarks are also subject to legal
protection and may not be used without KATU TV's prior written
consent. KATU TV is not responsible for the content of third
party material provided to or linked with this site. Some of the
material on this site contributed by the Associated Press.








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   Jun > Jun 9

                                  Ron Card?

From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 20:01:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:49:44 -0400
Subject: Ron Card?


Hi all,

I am looking for information on a reported UFO contact by a man
named Ron Card, possibly in Florida or the South Florida Area in
the 60's or early 70's, can anyone help?. He supposedly
contacted beings from the planet "Venus".

Thank you for any information

Albert Rosales








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   Jun > Jun 9

                     Federal Judges To Hear Area 51 Case

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 02:25:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:51:56 -0400
Subject: Federal Judges To Hear Area 51 Case


Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal,

http://www.lvrj.com/cgi-bin/printable.cgi?/lvrj_home/2002/Jun-04-Tue-2002/ne=
ws/18894771.html

Stig

***

Tuesday, June 04, 2002
Copyright =A9 Las Vegas Review-Journal

**

Federal judges to hear case involving Area 51

By KEITH ROGERS
REVIEW-JOURNAL

*

A panel of federal judges in San Francisco will hear arguments
this month about ballegations that Department of Justice
attorneys improperly used national security to hide embarrassing
statements when a Las Vegas judge heard complaints filed in 1994
by Area 51 workers.

The hearing is scheduled for June 14 before a three-judge panel
in the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. It
stems in part from a request by the Review- Journal for the
panel to determine whether the Justice Department abused the
state secrets privilege when it convinced U.S. District Court
Judge Philip Pro to allow redactions in previously sealed court
documents.

"Our basic position is that the court has to review the redacted
information and make a determination as to whether or not the
government's justifications are legitimate and whether the
government's claims to national security are supported by the
material," said attorney Roger Myers, who is representing the
Review-Journal in the case.

Other than acknowledging the existence of a classified
installation, the government argues presidential orders keep
secret all information about what is commonly known as Area 51,
the Air Force's Groom Lake base located 90 miles north of Las
Vegas.

George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley also
had claimed previously that government attorneys improperly used
the military secrets privilege. He said overly broad standards
were being used to suppress information.

Turley filed lawsuits in 1994 against federal defense,
environmental and intelligence agencies on behalf of two widows
and some former workers from Area 51. The workers claimed they
were injured from inhaling toxic chemicals that were burned at
the base during the 1980s in defiance of environmental laws that
prohibit open-pit burning of hazardous wastes.

In 1998, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to hear an appeal in
those cases, upholding a ruling by the 9th Circuit that the
workers and widows were not entitled to learn what hazardous
substances existed at the installation or how they were handled.

On Aug. 17, the Review-Journal filed a motion to unseal the
court record. The 9th Circuit instructed Pro to release the
record, and the judge did so. However, large portions of the
transcripts contained in the 8-inch-high stack of documents were
blacked out.

The Review-Journal's motion also challenged the redacting,
arguing that information in the court briefs has "been litigated
in open court for more than six years."

The court documents obtained by the Review-Journal show much of
the dialogue and particularly statements made by Justice
Department attorney Stephen Samuels are blacked out of the
transcript. Some of his comments were made at the onset of the
case.

In an interview Monday, Turley said he was privy to all the
information at issue.

"There is no question in our mind that the material redacted by
the government has nothing to do with national security and
everything to do with individual accountability for false
statements given to the public," Turley said.

He noted that "the false statements in question make no
reference whatsoever to any program or component of Area 51."

Later, Turley said although he couldn't discuss specific
redactions, "we have supplied the court with literally dozens of
redactions of material that the government has left unredacted
either in the court transcript or other documents."

He said he hopes this most recent challenge will resurrect
previous issues in the Area 51 workers' cases.

"We are hopeful that the Court of Appeals will again reverse
Judge Pro and require the unsealing of some of this information
as well as other issues on appeal," Turley said.

"The workers remain committed to show the public what the
government did in this case," he said.

One argument in the case centers on a widely circulated Air
Force manual about the base, where former workers have said
high-tech U.S. aircraft have been tested against foreign planes
and radar systems.

"The manual had been circulating publicly for at least a year
with no hint of protest from the government," according to the
Review-Journal's Aug. 17 motion. With the manual still posted on
the Internet and not marked "classified" or "secret" the
government classified it in the court record.

A Justice Department spokeswoman had no immediate comment when
asked late Monday about the allegations and the June 14 hearing.







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   Jun > Jun 9

              Sighting Eulo, Southwest Queensland Oz - 25-4-02

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:24:22 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:54:37 -0400
Subject: Sighting Eulo, Southwest Queensland Oz - 25-4-02


Hello everyone I'm still here working on down under UFO
sightings.

AUFORN seems to be creating a quite a bit of Media & Government
interest of late due to our full page advertisements in NEXUS
Hard Evidence and The UFOlogist magazines asking for government
witnesses to UFO sightings and people that have knowledge of UFO
Government coverup's to come forward with the information needed
to help with an Australian UFO disclosure.

So folks I may have been quite on the List but not at home.

________________________________________

UFO Sighting EULO  Southwest Queensland

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 02016 25.4.02 QLD

Date: 25.04.2002
Time: 9.17pm
Location: South West QLD
Reportee: Diane


Location 68 kms west of Cunnamulla and
248 kms south of Quilpie population 80
http://www.queensland-holidays.com.au/pfm/regions/
outback/map-centralwest.htm

Report By Diane Harrison

Time sightings: 7.00 p.m & 9.10 p.m
Shape: Ball
Size:  50 cent
Objects: 3
Colour: Orange
Sound: None
Speed: Fast
Duration: Minutes
Direction: First object North second Object North West
Witnesses: 20


Report:

Diane Said: "I was sitting down just about to have my B.B.Q
dinner when I noticed a huge orange ball of light appear over
the top of my meat box". "I got up out of my seat and went to
have a clearer look at the object away from the obstruction of
  the box". "I wasn't alone in viewing these objects. I run a
caravan park here in Eulo and I had around 18 people staying
  and most saw the objects, it was amazing I never thought I
would see a real UFO in my life time."

Comment: I questioned Diane about the objects and asked if it
was possible it could have been  garbage bags or a balloon.

Diane said: "are you kidding a garbage bag no way a garbage bag
could never move that fast"

Question: I asked Diane to explain the movement of the first
object.

Diane said: "when I first noticed the object it was floating
above my meat box just off to the north." I moved  to get a
better look and this was when I noticed it went slowly down to
the ground but it came back up again". "But as it came up from
the ground it looked like 2 smaller objects fell from beneath
it". "The Object glowed a bright orange to a dimmer orange and
then it shoot off at high speed".

Question: Diane what did you do next? did you call anyone.?

Diane said: "Yes I did I called the police to see if anything
had been reported to them,  nothing". "I talked to some of the
people in the park for quite sometime it was amazing as I said".

Diane said:"I sat on the veranda for another 2 hours in the hope
it would come back and it did at 9.10 p.m". "I got on the phone
to the police straightaway this time and asked Troy our local
policeman to have a look and  see if he could see the second
object,,,,,,he could, and so could  our local park ranger who
was passing by". "I asked the ranger what he thought it was he
said he had no idea".

Comment Diane: When Diane mentioned the policeman's name it rang
a bell, I asked Diane how long had this policeman been in town,
she said "a few years now why? ". Tonight I rang Troy and to my
amazement it was the same guy I had talked to in 1998 about a
UFO sighting in Warwick QLD he wasn't a policeman then. He had
an amazing sighting while out Kangaroos shooting with 2 of his
mates, we had a great chat and he was the one that informed
Diane about the UFO hotline.

Troy reported: "When Diane rang me the second time I went out to
have a look and I could see what she was looking at. "It was a
bright orange object going dim then bright, it was moving in a
northwesterly direction at high speed at a 45 degree angle to
the horizon I watched it until it disappeared out of sight
between Yowah & Thargomindah. "It was no garbage bag or balloon
mate".

Troy said he has no doubt in his mind what he and Diane and the
other 20 witness saw was a UFO".

Still Under investigation

--
Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888







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   Jun > Jun 9

                    OZ files UFO Sightings - 6th.05.2002

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:24:58 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:59:46 -0400
Subject: OZ files UFO Sightings - 6th.05.2002

UFO Sighting Over Bundaberg Qld

Source: Steve Evans

I wish to report the following UFO sighting witnessed at 9.20pm
on Sunday Oct 21, 2001, in our backyard in the outer suburb of
Avoca, Bundaberg, Qld.

While standing outside in our backyard at 9.20pm, my partner and
I observed a string of 5 bright orange lights in the south
western sky travelling from a southerly direction and heading in
a northerly direction at treeline height for a duration of 5-10
mins. A singular bright orange light was observed first before
other's appeared behind it at close intervals until a line of
five bright orange lights were visible over about half of the
southern sky. They moved slowly north in a uniform line until
the third object dropped in altitude but not in speed. They
passed just below the Moon (quarter) except for the fourth
object which went through the Moon's light. They continued
moving north slowly and became less bright before disappearing.
  I observed them while standing in our backyard, and was
witnessed by my partner. The objects were much brighter and
larger than the closest star and travelled without any audible
sound. The night was clear and fine. The objects displayed no
characteristic similarities to any aircraft. Each light, being
the whole entity, and remained a constant bright orange light
with no flashing observed. They were travelling in a rising
angle. The Moon and stars were clearly seen. A vague oval
shape was observed from a side view  when the fourth object
passed through the light of the Moon. Prior to this, all five
objects appeared round in shape. After sighting the objects, we
accessed some information on the internet where we found
information and photographs of orange orbs and orange ball
phenomenom closely matching what we had observed. Internet
report

UFO Sighting Lithgow NSW

Name: Mr Bob S
Suburb: Lithgow
State: NSW
Background: Part time TAFE teacher artist & musician
Day: 1
Month: Jan
Year: 2002
Location: most times i was home or just 5 minutes from my house.
Weather_conditions: clear moon light nights the air was still.
Physical_stuff: around 50 foot diameter


What_happened: I've seen objects in the sky on four different
occasions in a space of 3 months. At the end of 2001 around
Lithgow, family and friends told me of their accounts of ufo's
that they had seen around the same time.

Unusual: 1.an amber light with crimson in the middle hovered 50
meters above a hill at the end of my street.

2.a bright light came over the east of Lithgow at about 3 am.
3.the third came up west of Lithgow flashed several times and
then split in to four piece and disappeared.

4. came from the west of Lithgow it drifted in slowly and it was
as if it knew we were watching it and suddenly took off towards
Katoomba direction

Regards Doug Moffet
from UFOR NSW website

UFO Sighting Bossley Park NSW

Name: Mrs Chapman
Suburb: Bossley Park
State: NSW
Background: studying for dip.prof.couns.Work in retail.
Day: 11
Month: Jan
Year: 1999
Time: 8pm
Duration: approx 10mins
Unusual: no sound but car windows were up.
Weather_conditions: clear summer night.

What_happened: I was a passenger in the family car with my
husband driving and my 3 children in the back. We were on the
main road leaving The Entrance [central coast]. There was light
traffic. Ahead to the right ,just above the line of trees about
150 - 200 mtrs away[it was night]on the opposite side of the
street, there was a an orange round ball light. It was moving
and took our eye as it would have been very low to the ground
had it been a conventional flying object. It was moving across
and down in movements. It then appeared to get larger. We then
noticed traffic had slowed and other cars had pulled over that
were travelling in our direction. [2 other cars]

We also pulled over to watch. The car in front's male driver was
out of the car watching.It then came towards us. It looked to
change colour from orange to red. When it changed direction the
car behind us took off quickly. My 15yr old daughter and myself
began yelling at my husband to go. We had a very strong feeling
of danger. The queer thing was my husband was just like the guy
standing outside his car, he didn't seem to hear us but seemed
totally engrossed in the light.I can't explain the terror in
those seconds that we felt{exept my husband}It just seemed
imperative that we leave immediately. My daughter then hit my
husband across the back of the head to snap him out of whatever
he was in.{not a normal occurance!]He angrily began to drive
away. As we looked out the rear window The red ball abruptly
changed direction again and seemed to come up behind our car.
With a car full of sceaming occupants my husband sped off. When
we looked behind it was no longer there. My husband called the
central coast radio station the next day to see if anyone had
reported any unusual lights the previous night. No one had. I
have noted in subsequent visits to the area{which are undertaken
with the kids always mentioning the night we were chased by a
ufo] that there are a number of power lines and a radio{I
presume}transmitter along the ridge nearby.


Regards Doug Moffet from UFOR NSW website

UFO Sighting Leppington NSW

Date 20th March
Time reported: 7.30 pm
Loacation: NSW
Repotee: Larraine
Referred to: Doug

I would like to report a sighting I had on Wednsday March 20th
at 7.30pm.The anomaly was a bright white light,twice as big as
the brightest star in the sky.It was travelling aprox.65 to 70
degrees above the eastern horizon high up and pretty much
directly south to north.It was very bright 4 of us noticed it as
soon as it crossed the southern tree line.I live in the
Leppington area above Sydney towards the mountains.I watched it
disappear behind the northern tree line,it took 5 minutes 7.30pm
to 7,35pm,it was travelling slowly,slower than  a plane and
there was no sound.I viewed it through binoculars for at least 2
minutes,I could see no structure just light.As I was watching it
I could feel a humming and vibration kind of like an electrical
charge.The other 3 witnesses dismissed it as a satellite,Im not
so sure.I made the necessary enquiries and this is the reply I
recieved back.

The sun would have been 5.5 degrees below the horizon at 7.30pm
on the 20th March 2002.Although it is possible to see a
satellite under such conditions,it is not common. Some
satellites can flare quite brightly notably the iridium
constellation,so still might be seen at that time.I did check
and there were no iridium flares predicted for Leppington at
that time.

Regards Larraine


UFO Sighting Mentone beach 1950s

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 01960 21.3.02 VIC

Date: 21.3.02
Time: 2.19pm
Location...Seen from Mentone beach. Victoria
Reportee: Jim
Nearest State Director George
Date of sighting...In late 1950s.

Report...

The object suddenly appeared in front of witnesses .It was
elliptical in shape , very large...bright white light. Witness
tried waving to it but this upset his girlfriend. The object
then moved away towards Rickett's Point...and kept going..then
shot up and disappeared at a very high speed...14 other
witnesses reported in paper.

End of report.


Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic

UFO Sighting Shepparton Vic

Follow up Hotline Callin 01966 28.03.2002 Vic.

Time reported...11:03 pm
Reportee....Nicky
Location....Shepparton Vic.
Report.... Nicky wanted to let someone know about several UFO
sightings in the Shepparton area. These began in 1996 after
Nicky had attended a UFO conference in Brisbane.

The sightings became so common that he decided to buy a video
camera in order to document them. Some are night time cases ,
but now even daylight sightings have been recorded. Nicky is
sending a copy of the tape to us so we can see it and then
determine if there is anything to further investigate.

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic


UFO Sighting Redcliff QLD Solved

Follow up Diane Harrison 1800 Hotline Call 01967 30.3.02 QLD

Date: 30. 03. 2002
Time: 7.30 p.m
Location: QLD Redcliff
Reportee: Marie
Telephone number : 07 32
Nearest State Director Diane
Report
Marie saw 2 bright disc shaped objects in the sky
moving from side to side.
Conclusion
IFO Solved: It was nothing more than a Laser light show "sorry folks"

 >James Easton.
 >E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
 >www.ufoworld.co.uk
 >Courtesy of news.com.au:
 >http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4047559%255E1702,
 >00.html
 >AAP 30 March, 02
 >RESIDENTS in the Brisbane suburbs of Redcliffe and Caboolture
 >have reported four UFO sightings, police said.
 >A police spokesman said two bright discs were seen hovering over
 >Clontarf - later moving on to Beachmere.
 >
 >"We received the first call at about dusk, with the next about 15
 >minutes later," the spokesman said.
 >He said Caboolture police had called at about 8pm, also receiving
 >sighting reports."People are seeing something, but I'm sure there is a more
 >logical explanation for it," the spokesman said.
 >[END]
 >

UFO Sighting Hills District NSW

Follow up 1800 Hotline Callin Code 01969

Sunday March 31st 11.19pm
Location: Hills District N.S.W
Reportee Craig
Time: About 11.0pm

Sunday night Craig was walking in his backyard when he saw 2
orange colour balls of light in the sky.He was facing west and
they were travelling north west from a southerly direction about
45 degrees above the horizon.Craig said it was their colour and
size that caught his attention,they were 5 or 6 times bigger
than a star and had a yellowish orange glow,no flashing lights
like normal aircraft. He said they were moving slowly in
formation far enough apart to tell they were 2 objects and
higher than usual aircraft.As they travelled they were also
ascending,Craig said he watched them for about 5 minutes until
they were tiny pin pricks of light,there was no sound.

 From their position in the sky this sighting was approximately
over Blacktown. They could have been those homemade lantern
things except for the fact that they move with positive
direction and have been witnessed and reported repeatedly.

Regards Larraine

UFO Sighting Currans Hill NSW

Date: 31st March 2002
Day: Saturday
Time: 8.35 p.m
Location: Currans Hill NSW

Hi all,
we've received two reported sightings in the
Campbelltown region:

Mr W of Currans Hill reported the following incident:

Saturday 31st March, at 8.35pm, Mr W noticed a light cloud or
mist travelling from the region of the Southern Cross and
heading north. Just then he discovered a dark structure bearing
from south to north, proceeding towards him. The unusual 'v' or
'boomerang' shaped anomaly finally flew overhead, apparently
much faster than a conventional aircraft. Mr W stated that he
actually saw a dark grey structure, however there were no lights
or sound associated with the object.

Date: 2nd April 2002
Day: Tuesday
Time: 9.53 p.m
Location: Bradbury NSW

A Gentleman from Bradbury by the name of M reported the
following sighting: On 2nd April (Tuesday) around 9.53pm, M was
in his back yard conducting naked-eye astronomy when he sighted
a cluster of star-like lights approximately 30 degrees above the
east/south-eastern horizon. The cluster of lights, situated in
an 'arc-like' formation, travelled over M's residence at a
considerable speed heading south towards Appin. M said that the
star-like objects looked like satellites only they were
travelling at least 'ten times' as fast! He also said that it
definitely wasn't a single object as he saw the apparent space
between them. He estimated anywhere between 10-15 individual
objects within the cluster. Again there was no sound associated
with the sighting.

Regards Attila
UFO Society of Western Syd

UFO Sightings Adelaide South Australia

Follow Ups on -- AUFORN Hotline Callin Codes:
01978, 01981,01983,01984,01985,01992 - for
Adelaide, South Australia

Date(s): 2/04/02 - 3/04/02 - 7/04/02
Time(s): Between 7.15pm - 9.30pm
Suburbs involved: Parafield Gardens,
Salisbury, Salisbury Plains and Wynn Vale

REPORT

3 - 6 Orange star like objects were sighted over the Northern
suburbs of Adelaide on these dates. All of the above Callin
Codes reported the same thing, with minor differences in
positioning of the objects. Nighttime sky conditions were the
same on all nights, clear sky with only patchy cloudcover. All
the orange star light objects where observed below the cloud
cover.

All witnesses state that once these orange star objects reached
the Adelaide Hills they all 'disappeared' or 'blinked out'
Length of sighting time: Varying from 2-3 mins up to 10-12 mins.

Triangle Formation

Witnesses reported seeing the 3 or 6 orange lights in a single
triangle or 2 triangle formation, one person said that at one
stage 4 of the lights looked like it was in a 'kite formation'
but then formed a 3 pointed triangle with 3 of the lights, with
the 4th light to the east of the top light.

In the case of the 2 triangle formation, the witness stated that
they saw 6 lights move into 2 perfect triangle formations and
continued that way until reaching the Adelaide Hills.

Straight Line Formation

Witnesses also saw and reported the orange star like objects to
be in a straight line made up of 3 lights together with a 4th
light following.

Whilst watching the objects in this straight line formation,
witnesses state that of 3 lights that were in a row, they were
evenly spaced one behind the other, with the 4th light trailing
some distance behind.

Witnesses that sighted the 'straight line formation' all stated that
as the lights neared the Adelaide Hills, that the 4th light then moved
quickly to join the other 3 lights.

Witness Statements [note approx total number of Witnesses: 20]

All witnesses state that they heard no sound at all coming from
these objects.  They all state the objects were moving in a
North, North East to South East direction.  All state that the
objects were 'orange and star like' in size and brightness.

One witness a trained SA Policeman, [as well as being an
'amateur astronomner'] quickly got out his telescope to get a
clearer look at the objects, but stated that apart from seeing
them on a larger and brighter scale, the objects still were
fuzzy to look at.  He even grabbed his binoculars to see if he
get a clearer look through them, but again the same as through
the telescope.

He also stated, that for the years he has been doing his
'backyard astronomy' that he has viewed many numerous things in
the night sky, from satellites, to light planes flying late at
night, to birds, to even [yes folks the infamous] hot air
garbage balloons, but what he saw that night, didnt fit any of
those 'explanations'.

All witnesses, stated that living or being so close to Parafield
Airport, that they all 'Certainly Knew', what a light plane
looked and sounded like, and what their night lights looked
like. So to hear 'no sound/noise' surprised them. They also
stated that they had phoned Parafield Airport, which could not
help as it had closed earlier that night. They also phoned
Edinburgh Air Force base, which informed these witnesses that
nothing had 'shown up on their radar and NO they were not test
flying any aircraft, secret or non-secret'.

[See Diane Harrison's report on Edinburgh Air Force base
response in AUFORN list post dated: Tuesday 9th April 2002 in
response to questions asked by Hugh Mulgrew]

Also all say, that 'They have Never Seen anything like this in
their life(s)'.

Final Words

This group of sightings certainly has caused a 'stir' here in
Adelaide! One of the witnesses who called the AUFORN Freecall
Hotline, also phoned Adelaide Radio Station SAFM.  Her call, to
SAFM, set up a 'callin' session on SAFM's Breakfast show, asking
people to ring in, if they had seen the same thing or if they
had seen anything 'strange' in the sky. The response to SAFM's
call in was incredible!

I contacted SAFM to inform them that AUFORN SA was
'investigating' these incidents and also to leave our Freecall
Hotline number for anyone else who may have seen something to
ring.  From my call to SAFM, I also learnt that 'A Current
Affair' was interested in these sightings due to some video
footage being taken by a local guy.

[Again see Diane Harrison's post to the AUFORN of Tuesday 9th April 2002]

Upon speaking to lady who phoned SAFM, myself, she again said
what all witnesses , concerning this event, have said to me:
That her and her family so amazed and effected by seeing this,
that she felt the need to contact the media, to hopefully find
out that what they had seen was nothing more than a 'light
show', some 'kids mucking around with garbage bags', or a
'joke'. When I informed her, that she was one of approx 10 other
calls to the AUFORN hotline she was [in her words] 'blown away'.

END REPORT

Regards,
Charmaine Ballam
South Australian Director - AUFORN
[Australian UFO Research Network]


UFO Sighting foothills of Dandenong Ranges

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 01975 2.4.02 Vic

Date: 2.04.2002
Time: 6.57 a.m.
Location....Belgrave South...Victoria (Outer Eastern
Melbourne Suburb in foothills  of Dandenong Ranges)
Reportee: Female Lauren
Nearest State Director George Simpson
Sighting date...Monday 1st April 2002.
Time of sighting...8pm.

Report....Was outside parents house..saw object, a round shaped
light size of 20c piece when held at arms length, very
bright..about 1 k away, came downward in an arc and was obscured
by the house. It was large and perfectly round, very bright
yellow inside and had a green outline. Lauren expected to hear
an explosion from impact....but there was no noise. She thinks
it may have come down in the Cardinia Dam area.She wants to know
if anyone else saw it and reported it.

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic


UFO Sighting Lakes Entrance NSW

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 01987 5.4.02 Vic

Date: 5.04.2002
Time: 6.46 P.M.
Location....Lakes Entrance..Vic.
Reportee: Declan
Nearest State Director: George Simpson
Time sighting ...3.30 pm to 9.30 pm when clouds rolled in.!
Direction....South West.

Report

Declan saw a bright object in the sky from about 3.30 PM . It
appeared motionless for the duration of the sighting. Even the
constellation 'Orion' passed through and moved across the sky..
given enough time..yet the object remained. This object
continued to remain visible until 9.30 pm.

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic

UFO Sighting North of Dural NSW

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01996 09.04.02 NSW

Date 9th April
Day: Tuesday
Time reported: EST
Loacation: NSW
Repotee: Alex
Referred to: Karen B

Alex's Wife saw three orange lights from their bathroom window
at around 12:00 am on the 6th April 02. They both went outside
to see three orange lights in a triangle formation moving from
North to South.  Alex lives North of Dural near the National
Park, they do not have street lights, so apparently they get a
good view of the night sky.

He states the lights were are constant orange, not flickering
and no noise could be heard. According to Alex the lights stayed
together in formation and at the same altitude until they
disappeared. One interesting note was that one of the orange
lights dropped what looked to be a flair or something, which
could possibly mean that it may have been a case of the garbage
bag scenario. According to Alex the orange lights were heading
towards Windsor, Penrith area.

Regards Karen AUFORN/ UFOR NSW

Unusual Phenomena report

Follow up 1800 Hotline Callin 01999 12.04. 2002 Vic.

Date:12-4-02
Time Reported: 12:16 pm
Location: Healsville Victoria
Reportee: Robyn
Referred to:State Director - George S.

Report:

I phoned Robyn who proceeded to tell me almost everything about
myself ....her conversation lasted 3 1/2 hours. She has had many
encounters with many forms of unusual phenomena including ET's.
This lady is very psychically tuned in...she said she was
clairvoyant and clairaudiant....and that we are very close to
the time when the entire human race are going to be forced to
acknowledge the existence of life throughout the universe...and
their presence here on earth.


Regards George AUFORN Vic


UFO Sighting Forestville NSW

Follow up 1800 Callin Code 02003 13-4-02 SA

Date: 13 April 02
Time Reported: 8:17 am
Location: Forestville, NSW
Reportee: S
Referred to: State Director: Doug M.
Telephone: 02 9

On 12th April 2002, S was observing satellites in his back yard
while having a quiet smoke. Around 11.30pm he noticed an unusual
aircraft heading from north to south, directly over his
residence. Even though the sighting only lasted 3-4 seconds, he
was able to get a good view of this extraordinary aircraft. S
said, "I first though it was an aeroplane, but when it got
closer I knew it wasn't". According to S's testimony, this so
called "flying-wing" passed overhead without sound at what
appeared to be at low altitude. "It travelled consistently, like
a normal aircraft. It had no other illumination (strobe or
navigation lights) other than a few elongated dim lights at the
front of the wing (amount unknown)". S also added that he was
able to see the dark structure with the aid of these unusual
lights (pale white). S mentioned that they don't live near a
fight path and to see something like this was amazing.

I asked him about his line of sight at the time. He estimated
that some hills towards the north would have been around 3-4
kilometres and the outlook towards the south was limited because
of obstructing trees (a few hundred metres from the residence).

Notes: I don't think that S would have first noticed this
peculiar aircraft while it was travelling above the hills
towards the north. If that were the case, then the craft would
have been travelling at approximately 3,600 km/h. The witness
would have noted this and he would have had very little time to
see any structure at all. Therefore one can only assume that the
craft was near overhead by the time S discovered it.

I told the witness that it is quiet possible that the aircraft
may have been launched from Williamstown RAAF base and that the
craft 'could' have been some form of stealth technology.

S spoke of some unusual things that occurred over the years.
Because he is a ranger, S spends most of his time in the great
outdoors. He told me about some strange clearings in the bush
near West Head (up most north shore). I have heard of some
unusual activities taken place in this region (lights
submerging, etc). This is an area that I will look in to.

Regards Attila UFO Society South West Sydney


UFO Sighting Appen NSW

Name: Mr Terry T
State: VIC
Background: mechanical engineer karate instuctor
Day: 18
Month: Apr
Year: 2002
Time: 9.33
Unusual: large disc
Location: above home
Other_people: whole family
Weather_conditions: dusk ,very clear
Physical_stuff: 100 feet above house footy field size
speed scary

What_happened: could you please help me find out about what
happened to a friend of mine on the 5 6 or 7th of march 1984 in
a place called Appen NSW the whole family saw a very large disc
above their house it was making a very loud noise as my friend
walked outside it took off at frightening speed many people saw
this and it was in the local papers

Regards Doug Moffet from UFOR NSW website


UFO Sighting Ashmore Gold Coast Qld

UFO Sighting Report 02011 18.4.02 QLD
Investigator: Jan Stone

Date: 17.4.02
Time: 8pm
Location: Ashmore Gold Coast Qld
Reportee, Barry

Report:

Barry is a Sea Captain and has been for a number of years. At
about 8pm on Wednesday night 17.4.02 Barry saw three white
lights in the sky forming a triangle. Travelling from South to
North in about 7 seconds. He said there was broken cloud that
night. No noise. Aprox height was 4,000 feet. About the size of
a 20cent piece (holding at arms length).

Barry says he has had many years at sea and seen many strange
things but nothing like this.  He said there is no way it was a Aircraft.

End Report
Regards Jan AUFORN QLD


UFO Sighting Gold Coast QLD

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 02010 18.04.02 QLD

Date: 18th April, 2002
Time Reported: 9.39 am (0939 Brisbane Time)
Location: Ashmore, Gold Coast Qld
Reportee: male
Referred to: State Director - Jan Stone

Report

On 18th April 2002 (Thursday) at 1.am Mr X, who lives at
Ashmore, Gold Coast, was looking up in the sky, when he noticed
5 bright lights forming a triangle, travelling at 4000 ft and
about 500 knots, there was broken clouds that night and there
was no noise.  The size of the Lights was about the size of a 50
cent piece held at arms length, they were white in colour.
  Travelling from North/West to East. Mr X is absolutely sure it
was not a Aircraft.

End Report
Regards Jan Stone AUFORN


UFO Sighting Albury NSW

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 02015 24.4.02 NSW

Date: 23.04.2002
Time: 8.58 pm
Location: Albury NSW
Reportee: Tim
Nearest State Director: Kylie


Report

Apparently there has been many sightings of orange lights in the
Albury region of late. Tim has driven under 5 orange lights
approx 200 mtrs altitude. Truck drivers and others have pulled
over to observe the lights. Lights seen over airport, could be
garbage bags ...need to find out more details and
characteristics of objects.

Regards Doug Moffet AUFORN/UFOR NSW

UFO Sighting EULO Southwest Queensland

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 02016 25.4.02 QLD

Date: 25.04.2002
Time: 9.17pm
Location: South West QLD
Reportee: Diane


Location 68 kms west of Cunnamulla and 248 kms south of Quilpie
population 80

http://www.queensland-holidays.com.au/pfm/regions/outback/map-centralwest.htm

Report By Diane Harrison

Time sightings: 7.00 p.m & 9.10 p.m
Shape: Ball
Size: 50 cent
Objects: 3
Colour: Orange
Sound: None
Speed: Fast
Duration: Minutes
Direction: First object North second Object North West
Witnesses: 20


Report:

Diane Said: "I was sitting down just about to have my B.B.Q
dinner when I noticed a huge orange ball of light appear over
the top of my meat box". "I got up out of my seat and went to
have a clearer look at the object away from the obstruction of
the box". "I wasn't alone in viewing these objects. I run a
caravan park here in Eulo and I had around 18 people staying and
most saw the objects, it was amazing I never thought I would see
a real UFO in my life time."

Comment:
I questioned Diane about the objects and asked if it was
possible it could have been garbage bags or a balloon.

Diane said: "are you kidding a garbage bag no way a garbage bag
could never move that fast"

Question: I asked Diane to explain the movement of the first
object.

Diane said: "when I first noticed the object it was floating
above my meat box just off to the north." I moved to get a
better look and this was when I noticed it went slowly down to
the ground but it came back up again". "But as it came up from
the ground it looked like 2 smaller objects fell from beneath
it". "The Object glowed a bright orange to a dimmer orange and
then it shoot off at high speed".

Question: Diane what did you do next? did you call anyone.?

Diane said: "Yes I did I called the police to see if anything
had been reported to them, nothing". "I talked to some of the
people in the park for quite sometime it was amazing as I said".

Diane said:"I sat on the veranda for another 2 hours in the hope
it would come back and it did at 9.10 p.m". "I got on the phone
to the police straightaway this time and asked Troy our local
policeman to have a look and see if he could see the second
object,,,,,,he could, and so could our local park ranger who was
passing by". "I asked the ranger what he thought it was he said
he had no idea".

Comment Diane: When Diane mentioned the policeman's name it rang
a bell, I asked Diane how long had this policeman been in town,
she said "a few years now why? ". Tonight I rang Troy and to my
amazement it was the same guy I had talked to in 1998 about a
UFO sighting in Warwick QLD he wasn't a policeman then. He had
an amazing sighting while out Kangaroos shooting with 2 of his
mates, we had a great chat and he was the one that informed
Diane about the UFO hotline.

Troy reported: "When Diane rang me the second time I went out to
have a look and I could see what she was looking at. "It was a
bright orange object going dim then bright, it was moving in a
northwesterly direction at high speed at a 45 degree angle to
the horizon I watched it until it disappeared out of sight
between Yowah & Thargomindah. "It was no garbage bag or balloon
mate".

Troy said he has no doubt in his mind what he and Diane and the
other 20 witness saw was a UFO". Still Under investigation

Regard Diane Harrison AUFORN QLD

UFO Sightings Victoria

Hi list,

There are a few reports coming from around the Mount Dandenong
area which sound similar..big fireballs..huge
fireballs...travelling horizontally. These types of reports have
been coming in from all around Mount Dandenong for at least 10
years. These fireballs have been seen to travel long distances
without losing altitude, making no sound....and last year, in
the same area , an ambulance crew reported one which did a 180
degree turn and lost it's "firey look".  Something strange is
happening around Mount Dandenong.


UFO Sighting Fern Tree Gully Victoria

Follow up 1800 Hotline Callin 02006  Vic.... Location...Fern
Tree Gully...( very close to Mount Dandenong) Time....about 9.10
pm. Reportee....Andrew.

Report....Andrew saw two "Giant Fireballs" travelling West from
FTG ...travelling East to West. Andrew saw a plane which was
also airborne at the time. The plane was at about the same
height as the fireballs. The fireballs were larger than the
plane, and very bright, flew horizontally...and flew " a fair
amount faster than the plane".

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic

UFO Sighting Footscray Victoria

Follow up 1800 Hotline Callin 02022 28.04.2002

Location...Footscray
Time: 5.30 pm
Reportee...Sarah

Report... Sarah reported seeing a very bright starry like object
hovering in the west at about 5.30 pm. Most likely the planet
Venus. I told her she should try to see it again on consecutive
nights in the same general area. She also mentioned having first
phoned a sighting hotline which warned her it was about to
charge her $5.00 per minute to make her report. She promptly
hung up..and called us. The stated that the expensive hotline
probably pay extra to be listed first. If we had been listed
first she would have not wasted time calling the first number.

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic


UFO Sighting Boronia Victoria

Follow up 1800 Hotline Callin 02028 2.5.02 VIC

Date: 2.5.02
Time: 11.32pm
Location: Victoria, Boronia
Reportee: Simone
Nearest State Director: George
Date of sighting....Thursday May 2nd 2002.
Time of sighting...Midnight Thursday...Friday am.
Location...Boronia...( foothills of Mount Dandenong)

Report...Big fireball....fast moving...in our
atmosphere...travelling horizontally...from North to South
East...didn't change direction.... didn't descend...a few sparks
seen...no sound.

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic


UFO Sighting Croydon Victoria

Follow up 1800 Hotline Callin 02013 22.04.2002 Vic.

Date: 22.04.2002
Time: 5.16pm
Location: Croydon VIC
Reportee: Jacqi (female)
Nearest State Director: George Simpson

Report: Jaqui was dozing ..time was around 2 am...she was woken
by a very bright light which came in through her window, she
said it was strange because there was no noise..and the
brightness of the light was such that it looked like daytime
outside. It went away, and came back again. She then stated that
3 years ago she saw something with four lights that looked so
unusual that she stopped the car to get a better look. She
noticed other drivers had also stopped to look. She was on
Dorset road. She than said her mother is "into ufo's" and that
she will bring her along to the next meeting at Clayton in June.

Regards
George Simpson AUFORN Vic
  _______________________________________________

A big thank you to everyone for these reports
--

Regards Diane Harrison
National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@hypermax.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
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         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
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However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 9

                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #17 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:16:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:02:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #17 - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:51:26 -0500
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #17

 >Alfred's Odd Observation #17 (Saturday -- June 8, 2002)

 >Outside visibility here in oppressive Alabama has been as
 >transparent as a dirty buttermilk-glass, the humidity as
 >overbearing as Nipple-napper Ashcroft's justice department, and
 >all the effects of global warming are centered, seemingly,
 >squarely on my exact geographic coordinates! Only the bugs are
 >held in magical abeyance by the Bounce rag; however, or I would
 >assuredly be driven indoors.

 >Still, they fly.

 >Oh admittedly, they don't fly grandly, conclusively, or even
 >brilliantly of late... Still, they fly.

 >And it's a taste ironic for me as, lately, there's a lot of
 >impassioned discussion about UFOs all going "away", going "out",
 >or going "beyond." "Abductions are decreasing," some
 >pontificate. "Sightings are down," others pronounce. Forgetting
 >for a moment that this gets the CSICOP Youngbob/Sheaffer
 >skeptibunkies capering around gladly like frolicking wood-
 >nymphs, it really only apes some kind of sweaty bandwagon many
 >seem to be jumping on... in some 'king-of-the-hill' attempt to
 >be 'first' proclaiming some 'new reality' regarding UFOs...?
 >Specious stuff and turgid nonsense.

 >I see it as chasing a false plausible in a furtive attempt to
 >only 'appear' cutting edge. I see it as playing into the hands
 >of the transparently deceptive. I see it as pandering to the
 >misleading and embracing, too greedily, the flatulent
 >ostensible. I see it as courting the readily sophistical,
 >incorporating the onerous captious, or being at best shallowly
 >pretentious and at worst in 'evil' retrograde. It favorably
 >considers a falsehood, and it associates itself with the
 >absolute weakest of what's all too easily or most conveniently
 >presumable.

Hello Alfred,

You wrote:

 >Sightings are "down" friends and scabrous bunkies, not because
 >UFOs are going away, but because there are fewer people LOOKING
 >for them these days! Lately, people who might otherwise be
 >pondering the skies are, instead, only looking over worried
 >shoulders for 'enemies', real AND imagined. They have no TIME
 >for a puzzling enigma in the skies over their heads while
 >staring down the suggested barrel of a terrorist's gun! All
 >part of the master plan (uneasily?) dismissed by Jerry Clark?

It's an amazing thing to watch someone take a leaping swan dive
into the deep end of an empty cement pool. Oblivious to the fact
that there is no water beneath to break the fall.

Since you mentioned (made wild accusations about) the 'abduction
report' thread I'd like to point out the following:

Mark Rodigheir of CUFOS made the statement that 'new' abduction
reports to that organization were down for the last couple of
years. I wrote a post that was in agreement with it. Will
Beuche, the former Webmaster of PEER wrote in to corroborate my
and Marks statements. Simple statements (or reporting) of fact.
Nothing as 'sinister' as you imply ever transpired.

You create a fantasy in your own head,

your 'imaginings' piss you off,

and then you express anger toward people in the *real world
(*those who live their lives outside of your fantasy) as if they
were _actually_ responsible for their behavior in your somewhat
fevered dreams.

How you manage to turn a simple series of posts into the
convoluted and genuinely paranoid plot that you suggest above,
boggles my mind.

Lately you've taken to attacking some of the 'good-guys' Alfred.
Maybe a short vacation from the fray is in order. When you start
to perceive plots and schemes everywhere, and you see 'spooks'
lurking in every corner... it's time to do a Dave Brubeck and
'take five' bro.

Get a grip. You've created a veritable soap-opera out of what
was essentially a pretty dry, innocuous and short-lived series
of posts. Check the archive and reread em. Nothing 'heavy' going
on except inside your head.  :)


John Velez








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 10

                      UFO Sightings OZ Files 10.06.2002

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:55:14 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:29:04 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files 10.06.2002


UFO Sightings OZ Files 10.06.2002
_____________________________________

UFO Sighting Adelaide

Follow up 1800 Hotline Call 02040 5.4.02 SA

Date: 5.4.02
Time: 6.40pm
Location: SA
Reportee: Joe
Telephone number: 08
Nearest State Director Charmaine

Hi Charmaine
This guy said that he had just seen the Newspaper report about
the sighting over Adelaide last night. He said the report of the
sighting was wrong in the paper, and that he saw 2 Aircraft
going towards the lights in the sky and then the lights took off
and disappeared.

Report:

I rang Joe and she said her husband was sure a fighter plane
went after the UFOs??

I rang wing commander Rick of the Edinburgh RAAF base and again
we had a good chat about what was going on. He told me he wasn't
aware of the sightings until the newspaper story again.? He
informed me he had checked his log to see if anything was
reported over the weekend and no one to his knowledge called the
base to report anything. He also informed me of the stance the
RAAF have in regards to UFO reports "we are told to inform the
public to call the police" we don't want to know??. ( he said
this nicely )

Comment Diane:

Charmaine I have no problem talking to Rick as I feel he
understands what we are trying to do in regards to informing the
general public of what they are seeing. And what is really
refreshing he has an open mind. He said in an age of video
cameras we should be getting some of these sightings on film,
when I told him we have this time he kind of went quite for a
moment. I informed him we had film and photos this time and are
awaiting results.

Rick informed me no fighter planes went after anything on
Saturday night that he is aware of. He said "Diane unless we
feel we are under threat we send nothing up because it cost to
much, never mind chasing balloons". ( a fair comment)

Awaiting results
Still under investigation
  Regards Diane Harrison

UFO Sighting Parralowie South Australia

Follow up 1- 1800 Hotline Call 02039 5.4.02 SA

Date: 5.4.02
Day: Saturday
Time: 12.53pm
Time of sighting: 8.10 pm
Location: Parralowie SA
Reportee: Barbara
Telephone number: 08 8
Nearest State Director Diane

Report:

Barbara said "I went outside for a smoke and was confronted by 3
orange fire balls in a triangle formation I raced inside got my
camera and took 4 photos of the objects". which she will get
developed in the morning. Barbara also stated her little girl
screamed at the sight of them and ran back in the house. Barbara
said "I've read the story in the Advertiser newspaper and this
was no balloon or garbage bag". "Balloons don't move that fast".

Still under investigation awaiting photo's

Follow up 2- 1800 Hotline Call 02039 5.4.02 SA

Date: 5.4.02
Time: 12.53pm
Location: SA
Reportee: Barbara
Telephone number: 08 8
Nearest State Director Charmaine
Report 2

The lady with the photos Barbara had a surprise when picking up
her photos.

Barbara put the film into Woolworths 1 hour processing she gave
the film to a girl with red hair. She asked for the negative not
to be cut for good reason. When she returned to pick up the film
she was served by a lady with black hair who wasn't there when
she left the first time. The lady with the black hair addressed
Barbara by her first name before Barbara had a chance to give
her the ticket for identification of proof for pickup.

Babara said: "I don't know this women and I was surprised when
she addressed me by my first name". "When the lady gave me the
pictures to check I could not find the photos that I had taken
that night of the UFOs". "I asked the women what happened to my
pictures not mentioning they were photos of the objects". "she
told me", "you never took any photo's on 24- 25- 26"? "I told
her yes I did, if I hadn't why are there a pictures at the end
of the film". Barbara informed me that on closer examination of
the photos taken at the end of the film it was picture's of
someone else's Kitchen which she has no idea of. Barbara's
husband was there when Barbara took the photos and when she went
to picking them up.

His comment to Barbara was "love they didn't want you taking
photos of them so they stopped you" he laughed because he was
just as surprised as Barbara at the disappearance of the photos.

Barbara is going to send the negative to AUFORN with a report.
Barbara is very disappointed because as she said "it could be a
once in a life time experience and now there's no proof". Still
under investigation

Regards Diane Harrison


UFO Sighting Mornington Peninsula Hastings VIctoria

Follow up 1800 Callin Code 02045 12/05/2002 Vic.

Time of Sighting....Approx. 10.30pm Mothers Day.
Location. Mornington Peninsula..Hastings..Vic.

Report..
Witnesses saw 3 bright orange lights. Red- Orange colour, very
bright, too low to be satellites, travelling slower than the
speed of a small plane. These lights were very large and
silent. They were heading in a South / South East direction
towards French Island. These were seen by the witness, his wife,
their son and one other person.

Estimated height...below 2000ft. (One of the witnesses is an
aircraft pilot) These objects travelled one after
another...about 1 klm apart, same trajectory, same direction,
same height. Sighting didn't make any sense to the witnesses.
Witness called the nearby Navy base, Cerberus and was told of a
similar report made 24 hours before.

End of report.

UFO Sighting Mildura 18.05.2002

Received a phone call last night around 7.30pm -
Saturday 18th May 2002, from a Barry Mason of Mildura.

He phoned me to inform that in Mildura's local paper -
  Sunraysia Daily, there was a front page report of a ufo
sighting by 2 of Mildura's police force.

This is what he told me about the story/article:

The 2 constables - a man and woman where on patrol near the
Mildura Caravan Park, which is 4kms out of the Mildura town
centre, when they spotted a silver disc ufo hovering over the
Murray River.

The 2 constables radioed into their station about their sighting
and were told by the radio operator "Weve put the Kettle on, how
about the 2 of you come back for a nice cup of tea and a lie
down".

The reporter who followed this up for the Sunraysia Daily,
stated that when he interviewed the 2 constables they were both,
bright and astute.  Even though the female constable was new to
the area she confirmed again what she saw, and the male
constable also stated that this was not the first time he had
seen something, a month before when on patrol by himself he had
observed an object once again hovering over the Murray.

I have done a Google search to see if I could find the story
from the Sunraysia Newspaper, but alas, all I get is the details
of the papers readership and where it covers and thats it. It
seems to cover the border of NSW/VIC in the Riverland area.

I thanked Barry for his phone call, he said he thought that
AUFORN might be interested, seeing that it had been reported in
the local newspaper and the fact that 2 police officers had
reported it.

Regards,
Charmaine Ballam
AUFORN - Sth Australian Director
--
Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 10

                       More On Smithers, B.C. Sighting

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:16:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:32:22 -0400
Subject: More On Smithers, B.C. Sighting


Hi List

Well just got back a bit ago from my drive to Smithers B.C. to
look into the sighting which was reported to me. From what the
witnesses had told me, and doing my own checking, and Martin
lending a helping hand, the two objects that were seen over
Hudson Bay Mountain were Venus and Jupiter. The planets were
again viewed by this family. They wanted to know what it was
they were seeing as in the twenty years they have been living
there they had never noticed these objects before, and were
really curious to find out what the heck they were.

I sure did have a nice visit with the husband, wife and their
three girls.

So I took pictures of the mountain and will post them to my site
with the report and an explanation to what these folks were
seeing.

Again, thanks Martin for your welcome input.

Take care

Brian







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   Jun > Jun 10

                            Re: Got Sack? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:04:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:38:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Got Sack? - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:51:50 -0500
 >Subject: Got Sack?

 >It's hard for me to be anything other than angry, really, as I
 >key this, especially as I consider the "hit" and disengage"
 >tactics of the shamelessly officious authoritarians among us --
 >those that write insipidly on the insipidly accused and become
 >insipid themselves, those outraged accusers of ad hominum (but
 >ironically first to practice it), and the reactionary 'sneering'
 >who use stodgy rationalization to engineer a deceptive last word
 >in the never-ending debate (and _weak_ stodgy rationalization at
 >that).

 >"Time or inclination", indeed. "Lame", indeed. "Unscientific",
 >indeed. "Fringe", indeed.

 >Jim Mortellero was impugned, roundly castigated, actively
 >campaigned against, and _not_ a little humiliated when he tried
 >to share his story and contribution with us here on UpDates
 >(SDI) several weeks ago. He knew he was going to have a rough
 >row to hoe going in, of course, given the excessive 'conviction'
 >of his angered opposition, but he had convinced himself that he
 >had a definite and TRULY substantive contribution to make. He
 >pressed BACK! The guy's got _sack_!

 >I recently heard him on the Jeff Rense show (Thursday night on
 >the sixth. Errol gave us all a heads up on last weeks SDI ), and
 >every indication _is_ that Jeff Rense, and (did I hear this
 >correctly ?) ...two of the worlds three most _important_
 >abduction researchers, Budd Hopkins and Dr. David Jacobs (the
 >third, I think, is just otherwise engaged, as yet) ...are _very_
 >interested in Jim's aforementioned contribution. Additionally,
 >the audio tape of his chemical regression, a regression
 >voluntarily performed in an attempt to find out what _assaulted_
 >him during the five plus hours of missing time he recently
 >experienced (!)and which a 911 call would confirm (reflexively
 >dismissed here as the mechanism of an inept hoax) .has _some_
 >citation from the discreet medical team which performed it. Still
 >more, Jeff Rense is aware of sources on this medical team who
 >confirm key aspects of the story as told (and more... oh and
 >more...!), as is one (still unnamed) principal researcher at
 >UpDates (c'mon out! [g]), and finally by the well respected Mr.
 >Hopkins himself. Everyone's 'talking' to everyone else... That is
 >unusual all by itself!

 >Let's sum up. There seems to be an 'initiative' offered... (that
 >is grounded in science, is the providence of a diverse
 >collection of professionally oriented individuals of some note,
 >and which is actively engaged by _the_ most respected
 >individuals in the field...) promising to give abduction
 >research a real shot in its enigmatic ASS! .Seems to _this_
 >writer like some impressed golf clapping should be going up all
 >around, but it's not... on the contrary,  it sounds like Daffy
 >Duck in here, just sliding out onto an abruptly silent stage
 >after Bugs has exited... Listen a moment and hear the crickets.
 >What's up with that? One would think we're not _really_
 >interested in this 'thing' we purportedly investigate.

 >Additionally, I've missed Jim's literary contributions in here,
 >to be sure, as I've learned to admire _anyone_ willing to
 >challenge the, largely ineffective, ufological status quo (or
 >question the suspect mainstream), and someone willing to
 >overturn the covering rocks instead of pronouncing what CANNOT
 >be under them just warms my freaking cockles (whatever the hell
 >_they_ are). In as much as Jim's claims have achieved at _least_
 >enough vindication to counter the specious pronouncements made
 >against them, can some of these principals see it in their
 >hearts to invite him back so he can continue his literary
 >contribution to the ongoing aggregate of UpDates effort? _I_
 >miss his public input, and in as much as it seems he might be a
 >little closer to the sweet vein than noted others have indicated
 >(or that noted others even are!), perhaps his input has more
 >value than has been otherwise whispered, and he could be
 >persuaded to take an active part in it once again. Truly, even
 >an ardent detractor owes him an apology, forthcoming or not, at
 >this juncture.

 >Consider: Jim Mortellero may be unique in that he stands to make
 >a major contribution to abduction research while selected of the
 >the most outspoken abductees are arguably "lined up" against
 >him! This is forgetting that it just may be that he is the
 >'realest' thing ufology has going on right now! For that reason
 >_alone_ this community should think twice before driving him off
 >too far . Ironic really when he wanted to give this whole thing
 >(the same thing!) to Errol and those with an alleged interest in
 >broad horizoned abduction research right here at UpDates... the
 >unfortunate result of "once burned, twice shy", or something
 >more sinister?

 >I've admonished him to come back on myself, but he thinks that
 >it might be inappropriate given the viciousness of the
 >opposition that he seems to generate. He sees himself as a
 >detraction and distraction to an effort that he would otherwise
 >have a lot of respect for; he doesn't want to be the cause of,
 >or facilitate, a continued non-productive divergence or
 >corrosive digression; he wants the truth. ...As sappy,
 >unsophisticated, and juvenile as that sounds? He just wants the
 >truth. That's all it ever was. Like I said: Jim's got _sack_!

 >That's a dwindling commodity lately, good ladies and
 >gentlebunkies, as the best of us chases after a canted
 >mainstream that will _never_ accept them and the worst of us use
 >that chase as an opportunity to wear their more honorable
 >opposition down; let's reverse an egregious trend and welcome
 >'sack' back into the community.

Hello Alfred,

Wow, and I was wondering why it's been oh so peaceful on the
List for the last couple of months. :)

My thoughts?

Never have I seen _anyone_ go the lengths that Mr. Mortellaro
has gone to to promote himself, and to (forcefully) gain
acceptance for his 'case'.

Most abductees have to be prodded and cajoled into going public.
Mr. Mortellaro seems to be engaged in a non-existent popularity
contest which he approaches as if it was a sanctioned Olympic
event.

He came onto this List and informed everyone that he was an
"abductee." Everybody seems to have accepted that and taken him
at his word. It seems that the only one hung up on Mr.
Mortellaro's status as an "abductee" is Mr. Mortellaro himself.
It makes me wonder just 'what' it is, _really_, that he is
trying, with almost breathless desperation, to prove to
everyone.

If I recall, it was _his_ choice not to post because _he_ was
'upset' with the lack of response from List members. Now _we_
are supposed to "invite" him back? And according to you, with an
"I'm sorry," and a "pretty please with sugar on top."  (?)

In his quest for recognition and attention maybe he now realizes
how he has cut off his own nose and spited his own face by making
the premature melodramatic Hollywood exit that he made. EBK did
not throw him off the List, and neither did any of its members.
Why does anybody have to "invite" him back? _We_ didn't go
anywhere. He did!

Hey, how about _he_ asks us if he can come back on the List?
After all, it was he who chronically complained about how
screwed up the List is.

As far as I'm concerned he can post or not as he wishes.
Personally, I haven't 'missed' him at all.

BUT...  (big 'but')

I _reserve the right_ to respond to his on-list proclamations
and to express my opinions (as I choose to or not) when he does
post. No 'special' treatment. We're all adults here.

"If you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen."


John Velez








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 10

                 Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:48:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:41:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Gates


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?


 >So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

 >Kreskin ends up looking stupid and irresponsible and he's
 >$50,000 dollars out of pocket - that's if he really does donate
 >the money to a charity. So what has he really gained?

The truth is that we _really_ don't know that he in fact is
going to give any kind of money to any charity. Even if he said
he would one would be wise to contact that charity and verify..
I suspect it won't, then he will come up with some story about
how he really did donate but....

 >Why on earth should a man risk his professional reputation for
 >absolutely no benefit and much loss?

Like many others over the years. We heard about alleged mass ET
landings in the desert South West to happen on April 24th, 1997.
It never happened, but people promoted it, defended the story,
and so forth...that is until it never happened then most of the
folks moved on to the next story being told and none of the
defenders/promoters when contacted were then claiming that they
had never believed it in the first place.

You had some people promoting the story about alleged ET landing
on a mountain top in Arizona in December of 2000. This was even
promoted and defended on radio shows and what not. It never
happened.

Kreskin was nothing more then one of the latest crop of story
tellers making the rounds.

 >Perhaps the deeper question is : Was he duped by 'friends' in
 >the intel community - and if so why?

He was a fool, making a foolish prediction and gulliable people
believed him.

 >I wondered if he'd been tipped off that some of the craft at
 >Area 51 nearby were about to show themselves.......but he was
 >fed a lie.

Doesn't add up. Here the guy was trying to hypnotize a large
audience (who apparently didn't hypnotize) then when he said
look up and see the UFO, the people looked up, saw nothing,
instantly realized they had been gulliable fools. I suspect if
Kreskin had stayed in the area he might have been lynched by the
people who bought in to the story. Needless to say he took the
safe way out and beat a hasty retreat.

 >Why does a man willingly destroy his lifetime career on live
 >national radio and TV unless he's being duped by somebody else?

People do it all the time. You have quite a number of people that
have discredited themselves, and or their information turns out to
be absolutly untrue or wrong and they still make the circuit on
the radio and TV shows not to mention the UFO lecture circuit.

 >The other alternative for you conspiracy buffs is that he is
 >happy to cough up $50,000 because he's being paid $200,000 by
 >some shadow government to lay on this hoax.

The $50 Grand was just smoke and mirrors. At the current state
of ufology with various people like Reed and others floating
around you don't need a shadow govt to do anything. Just let
human nature take its course and they will shoot themselves in
the foot. Look at all the so called UFO conferences that
entertain people whose background/credentials and basic story
can't be verified but yet they keep inviting the people back one
after another.

I predict that Kreskin will appear on radio/TV with newer,
better UFO stories and we will hear how the evil cover up
sabatoged the event and made him look like a fool. Meaning it
will not be his fault, nor will he take responsibility for it.


Cheers,

Robert







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                 Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:56:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:43:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hatch


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:13:36 -0500 (EST)
 >Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >Does anyone know if Kreskin is a CSICOP-ian?
 >I wouldn't be surprised.


Hello Chaz:

I strongly doubt Kreskin belongs to CSICOP.

His brand of BS is precisely the sort of thing they rail
against, regardless of their methods and means.

CSICOP has web pages up about Kreskin.  I simply cannot see them
lambasting one of their own:

http://www.csicop.org/sb/9409/bulkmail.html

http://www.youngskeptics.org/library/detail.asp?Num=544

http://www.psicounsel.com/scicop.pdf  (.pdf download)

Numerous other skeptical sites mention both Kreskin and CSICOP.
You can well imagine their take on Kreskin.



Best

- Larry










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              Re: Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 20:10:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:45:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:56:50 +0200
 >Subject: Kreskin: UFO Sightings In Eyes Of Beholders

 >Source: Las Vegas Sun, June 7, 2002,

 >http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/lv-
 >other/2002/jun/07/513550514.html

 >Stig

 >***

 >June 07, 2002

 >Silverton UFO sightings in the eyes of the beholders

 >By Mary Manning
 ><manning@lasvegassun.com>
 >LAS VEGAS SUN

 >**

<snip>

 >The Amazing Kreskin, also known as George Joseph Kresge
 >Jr., attracted about 300 people Thursday night to a dark
 >desert lot behind the Silverton hotel at Interstate 15
 >and Blue Diamond Road.

 >The mentalist and entertainer had predicted that one
 >of the largest UFO sightings in recorded history would
 >take place in Nevada's desert in either May or June.
 >Kreskin was so certain, he promised that if nothing was
 >sighted, then he would donate $50,000 to charity.

 >But in the end Kreskin, who says he's not a psychic,
 >never expected to see anything otherworldly himself.
 >He planned to plant the idea in the minds of the audience
 >to see alien objects in the sky.

 >"It's not going to hurt you, it's not going to
 >jeopardize you, he told the crowd in the showroom before
 >the sightings.  "It's going to be fulfilling. It will be
 >real to you, but it will be subjective.

So. That's how Kreskin worms his way out of it. -LH

 >"You may not be able to see anything," one woman cried,
 >pointing above her head, "but I can feel its presence."

 >Another woman grabbed Kreskin's arm and cried, "I saw a
 >green ship!"

Disgusting.

<snip>

 >Kreskin said the fact that people believed they saw
 >UFOs proved his point, and said he would not make the
 >donation to charity.

Is anyone surprised?


Best wishes, and thanks, Stig, for the article.


- Larry Hatch








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                  Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:36:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:46:53 -0400
Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked



This article has been around since 1999, but thought the List
might enjoy the revist.


The Star, London - January 18 1999

Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked Secret footage of an
alien autopsy has been exposed as a fake made by two men in a
Bedfordshire barn. The 30-second film was hailed as new evidence
that an alien crash-landed in America in 1947. But its makers
have now revealed their alien's head was a wig holder, its
innards came from a chicken and the man on the video identified
as president Harry S Trueman was a local butcher.

Milton Keynes-based karaoke video producers Keith Bateman
and Andy Price-Watts said they made the hoax film five years
ago, pretending it was shot in a tent after the infamous Roswell
UFO crash in New Mexico. "We could hardly stop ourselves
laughing as we shot the video," said Andy, whose 12-year-old
son played the alien. "We used a video camera on a tripod and
kept jogging it to give the impression it was being held. The
strange camera angles added to the veracity of the film."

They then edited the film, processed it in black and white,
added "scratches" to make it look old and for added authenticity
added a security coding. They claim they were paid to keep quiet
about the footage while another film was touring media studios.








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                               Year Of The UFO

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:50:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:38:10 -0400
Subject: Year Of The UFO


During June 1 there were 4 sightings.
During June 2 there were 3 sightings .
During June 3, 1
June 4, 2
June 5, 4
June 6, 3
June 7, 3
June 8, 2
June 9, 2
and
June 10, 1.....

That brings us up to date... in 1952, that is... the Year of the
UFO!!!

Why not travel with me back in time to when ufology was young
and, perhaps, find out some answers to pressing questions!! (For
those of you new to UFO studies this will be an valuable
historical survey.) Find out the connection between Marilyn and
"interplanetary visitors" (you know which Marilyn... and I don't
mean Manson!). Find out what the FBI found out... what the CIA
found out and what they did not find out. Learn why that year
did not change our world... although it could have (well, maybe
it did... at least a little).

After all, in 3 short months (June, July and August) the Air
Force collected about 1000 sighting reports. Why wasn't this
sufficient to convince everyone that something strange was going
on?

We now know that some at the upper levels of the Air Force were
seriously considering the (gulp!) Interplanetary Hypothesis!!

So why did General Samford slam the lid down when he could have
done the opposite?

Why are we stuck in the "tradition" that there is nothing to UFO
sightings?


Read http://brumac.8k.com/1952YEAROFUFO/1952YEAROFUFO.html

and find out (?) !

Oh yes, not that I want to get ahead of myself, but
on June 11 there were 3 sightings,
June 12, 4 sighitngs
June 13, 3 sightings
June 14, 4 sightings.....

(preview of coming attractions: July 21, 12 sightings
July 22, 25 sightings.....








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               Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:39:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:36:46 EDT
 >Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked

<snip>

 >This article has been around since 1999, but thought the List
 >might enjoy the revist.

 >The Star, London - January 18 1999

 >Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked Secret footage of an
 >alien autopsy has been exposed as a fake made by two men in a
 >Bedfordshire barn. The 30-second film was hailed as new evidence
 >that an alien crash-landed in America in 1947. But its makers
 >have now revealed their alien's head was a wig holder, its
 >innards came from a chicken and the man on the video identified
 >as president Harry S Trueman was a local butcher.

<snip>

I remember when I first heard about this. FOX's "World's
Greatest Hoaxes" advertised that it had proof that the "alien
autopsy" had been faked. I was elated, and was looking forward
to seeing who had done it (and how).

Needless to say, I was severely disappointed to find that the
"autopsy" had not been debunked at all.

Of course, the "tent footage's" affiliation with the better-
known "autopsy" was enough for most people. While the AA may
very well be a hoax, it's still an enigma.

My illustrated essay on this subject can be found here:

http://mactonnies.com/aa.html

--Mac







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                Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:01:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:42:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Maccabee


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?


 >So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

Perhaps the best thing about the Kreskin hoax is the small numb
er of people who fell for it.  Human  beings are, perhaps,. not
as suggestible as CSICOP would have us believe!

(CSICOP... why weren't there dozens of "sightings" by these
people were were all pumped up to see a UFO? How many photos
were taken showing odd "images" to prove UFOs were around?)








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                 Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:40:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:43:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Hebert


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:50:27 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >>From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >>Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

<snip>

 >>Either way I reckon there's more to this story that meets the
 >>eye.....

 >Hello Dave:

 >Even Art Bell was asking the same thing: Why?
 >I sure don't know, but there must be at least two reasons: a
 >good one, and the real one.

How do you know it is not for the reasons Kreskin stated - an
experiment to see if he could plant the idea that people would
see alien objects in the sky? Must there be an ulterior motive
or conspiracy involved just because he chose to make people see
UFO's?

 >What I do _not_ see happening is some agency paying Kreskin many
 >many thousands just to discredit UFOs and ufology.

Maybe he was not trying to discredit UFO's and ufology. Maybe he
was trying to make a point (and/or money). Maybe, just maybe,
Kreskin, who has spent decades making a living by deceiving
audiences with his illusions, was trying to show the world how
easy it is to manipulate human perceptions - especially in
regards to UFO's (and make a profit in the process).

Although I would not condone his methods, I recognize this
"experiment" as informative and educational for those who study
human perceptions and human belief systems. Since it has already
transpired, there is little we can do to change what happened.
But, when we are through admonishing Kreskin and his kind,
perhaps we can review the events with a more scientific eye.

 >If some group or agency wanted to discredit UFO studies, they
 >could do so _far_ more cheaply, easily and effectively by simply
 >encouraging some of the more credulous individuals within our
 >own ranks; feeding them false leads etc.

Makes sense to me. The debunkers may not be our worst enemies.
Perhaps the true "debunkers" are the ones we least suspect - the
master illusionists. It is easier to spread misinformation,
disinformation and lies if the audience trusts the speaker than
one who attacks their belief systems.

Tell them what they _want_ to hear, show them what they _want_
to see and they *will* believe. It is easier to influence people
to see what is not there than to help them see the truth,
especially if the truth conflicts with their belief systems.

 >This still leaves us with the mystery of Kreskin's motivations
 >of course. I would like to hear anything he has to say about
 >it, but lots of luck.

While we're at it, let's learn more about the motivations of the
thousands of 'Kreskins' out there in the world of TV evandalism,
used car salemen (who look a lot like TV evangelists and vice
versa), and the White House. We are exposed to illusions and
mind manipulation on a daily basis. Only difference is we call
it "religion" and "politics".

 >Whenever Art Bell tried to pin him down for details, he turned
 >into a verbal osterizer, changing the subject with an oily ease
 >that might make Hoagland envious.

Bet they have posters of each other hanging on their wall. ;>


A. Hebert







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                 EW: UFO No Show/Presidential Sightings Bust

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior" <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 02:12:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:46:31 -0400
Subject: EW: UFO No Show/Presidential Sightings Bust


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Web Log June 10, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
LAS VEGAS UFO NO SHOW
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: Electrogravitic Sunset
http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewElectrograviticSunsetThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - News that a well known mentalist had
predicted one of the largest UFO sightings in recorded history
spread rapidly through the UFO community last month. Those of
you ready to believe the Amazing Kreskin's promise to make a
$50,000 charitable donation if it didn't happen may be surprised
to learn that the entertainer now says he won't pay.

[more...]

------------------------------------------------------------
PRESIDENTIAL UFO SIGHTINGS ARE A BUST
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: Why Don't They Land on the White House Lawn?
http://www.electricwarrior.com/expose/ewWhiteHouseLawnThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - Viewers who watched US President GW
Bush lay out his vision for the Department of Homeland Security
thought they saw UFOs during his live television broadcast.
Richard Hoagland, best known for his views about the Face on
Mars, has offered a simple explanation.

[more...]

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 10, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

------------------------------------------------------------
The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the content of Web
links. The content reproduced here is for informational purposes
only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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                               'Rods' Are Bugs

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:53:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:47:30 -0400
Subject: 'Rods' Are Bugs


An excellent study of allged rods can be found at:

http://www.opendb.com/sol/seq.htm


Case closed.

A. Hebert

(Sorry if this has already been posted.  I just found it.)








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                          Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 7:27:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:50:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 9:44:28 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 ><snip>

Bill,

This message hardly contains answers to any points I brought up.


 >>Bill,

 >>Many people have a reduced copy of their 214 in their wallets.
 >>The VFW use to make such copies for members. Almost all
 >>employers want a copy of your 214 when you apply for employment.

 >Sorry, I have never seen a wallet-sized one. Why not lock it a
 >way in a safe box like I do.

 >>I am rather surprised that you are jumping on Kevin about this
 >>especially when it concerns self-confessed hoaxer Mel Noel.

 >Self-confessed? Never heard his confession.

Maybe you have "heard" his confession, but you can read it here:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m29-017.shtml


On-air admission

In October of 1969, Mel Noel/Guy Kirkwood walked into the studio
of Channel 9. The program was Robert Dornan's Tempo, and when
Kirkwood came out he said "Hi Bob, I know your brother." Host
Bob Dornan had invited both Mel and Don Dornan onto the show to
"hash over" the story. Don Dornan immediately called Kirkwood on
the carpet, asking him to state his real name. "Noall Bryce
Cornwell," replied Kirkwood.

Then Dornan dropped his bombshell: "Noall Bryce Cornwell is not
a pilot and never has been a pilot. All known aliases also show
no record of you holding a pilot's license." (Kirkwood did later
get a second-class pilot's license.) Bob Dornan then asked,
"Were you a commissioned Air Force pilot at any time?" Kirkwood
replied, "No sir."

---

This was excerpted from Don's article. The one which you stated
had inaccuracies. Did you even read Don's article? If so, why
would you make a statement like the one you did above?

 >The bottom line is Guy does not really care if UFO investigators
 >believe him or not and I cannot make him prove himself.

Good, then investigators should ignore his claptrap.

 >I have known him for 25+ years and have seen photos over the
 >years of him in a Sabre jet in full flight gear and a few other
 >photos that look as good as some of the photos from Edwards.

Sorry, that it not proof of anything.

 >He chooses not to make the docs he has public for reasons of his
 >own.

Another words he runs around the country tell these tall tales.
Then, when it come time to provide the proof he has his own
reasons for not doing so. This is about as lame an excuse as I
have ever heard. It is reason enough to disregard anything he
says!

 >As a last word, Guy Mel Noel Kirkwood does fall for schemes thus
 >he himself is painted as a flim-flam man which I can make no
 >excuse for, but the details of his story have been consistent
 >for 25 years and I have seen him talk in a room with other
 >pilots who have no trouble with his technical verbage.

I don't understand this last sentence at all. What schemes
did Kirkwood fall for? What exactly does that have to do with
Kirkwood's tall tales?

Of course, confidence men's tale have to be consistent and have
to get the jargon right. This proves nothing!

This last is contradicted again by Don's article.

Finally, why does Cornwell/Kirkwood/Noel need to use alaises if
his story is so good. His recent appearance have him droping the
Mel Noel name, telling the stories under the name Guy Kirkwood.

 >-Bill H

Bill, you have failed to provide the research which you have
done on these claims.

Also, you have failed to provide the inaccuracies you stated in
previous messages were in Don's article.

I still look forward to your answer


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:05:08 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:53:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Harrison


Hi Dave

 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

To show mass Gullibility  and mass Mind Control.

 >Kreskin ends up looking stupid and irresponsible and he's
 >$50,000 dollars out of pocket - that's if he really does donate
 >the money to a charity. So what has he really gained?

You ask what did he have to gain.? "Not much with the UFO
community" but quite a bit of free publicity.

 >Why on earth should a man risk his professional reputation for
 >absolutely no benefit and much loss?

Did he really risk his reputation?? or was it the ufologist's
that went there to see his show, were they the ones that risked
their reputation. Think about it over 300 people interested in
UFOs got suckered in paid for a ticket to see a UFO?.

The audience wanted to see a UFO and they wanted confirmation
and unwittingly they became part of an experiment. Please read
below e-mail

_____

 >Courtesy of...

 >http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/lv-other/2002/jun/07/513550514.html

 >The mentalist and entertainer had predicted that one of the
 >largest UFO sightings in recorded history would take place in
 >Nevada's desert in either May or June. Kreskin was so certain, he
 >promised that if nothing was sighted, then he would donate 50,000
 >[dollars] to charity.

 >But in the end Kreskin, who says he's not a psychic, never
 >expected to see anything otherworldly himself. He planned to
 >plant the idea in the minds of the audience to see alien objects
 >in the sky.

 >"It's not going to hurt you, it's not going to jeopardize you,"
 >he told the crowd in the showroom before the sightings. "It's
 >going to be fulfilling. It will be real to you, but it will be
 >subjective.

 >"You are part of a gigantic experiment. Damn it, some of the
 >members of the intelligence community better raise their
 >intelligence."

______

 >Perhaps the deeper question is : Was he duped by 'friends' in
 >the intel community - and if so why?

Good question Dave but why would they bother. Wasn't the soul
purpose of the show to show how the masses the audience could be
mind controlled into think they were going to see something.?
Credit were credit is due, he did what he said he was going to
do he controlled the audience and with the help of the media he
draw a crowd. I'm not giving him any support I think it is
shameful to play on a persons weaknesses...but he's a showman
and he did what he does best..he put on a show.

 >I wondered if he'd been tipped off that some of the craft at
 >Area 51 nearby were about to show themselves... but he was
 >fed a lie.

 >Why does a man willingly destroy his lifetime career on live
 >national radio and TV unless he's being duped by somebody else?

Did he really get duped.?

 >The other alternative for you conspiracy buffs is that he is
 >happy to cough up $50,000 because he's being paid $200,000 by
 >some shadow government to lay on this hoax.

 >With what purpose?

Maybe to make people think of how vulnerable they are and to
show how easy  it is to mind control people. Or did he just
point out, if you believe in something you will see what you
believe. Was this the exercise the experiment.?

 >Basically to discredit UFOs as reality.

No I don't think so. I think it was to wake people up and I dare
say some UFO enthusiast are feeling quite embarrassed at being
suckered in.

 >Every time there's a
 >hoax like this, millions of people buy in to the idea 'Ufos?
 >they're all hoaxes'

 >- worth quite a lot to those who don't want
 >us to know, perhaps?

 >Either way I reckon there's more to this story that meets the
 >eye.....

I guess you're right Dave.....

Okay guys I have my hard hat on :>)


--
Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888







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                      Re: talian UFO Newsflash No. 355

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@tiscali.it>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:09:46 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:54:48 -0400
Subject: Re: talian UFO Newsflash No. 355


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 355 -  24 MAY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- The Mothman in Theaters & Bookstores
- A Book on UFO Religions
- C.I.S.U. On-Line: New Layout & a Record
- Italian UFO Music at Roswell


THE MOTHMAN IN THEATERS & BOOKSTORES

Twenty-five years after "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind" by
Steven Spielberg, UFO-themed jargon is popping up once again on
the big screen: currently showing in all movie houses is the
American film "The Mothman Prophecies", which its Italian
distributors chose not to translate from English (if not under
the subtitle "Voci dall=92ombra": Voices From The Shadow).

On the other hand, even in France the film found a (slightly
more faithful) title as =93Prophecies Of The Shadows=94 and these
same wrong titles were thence given to the Italian and French
new editions of the book which was the source for the film: the
diary which the journalist, writer and ufologist John Keel
published in 1975 about the mysterious series of events which
rocked a town in West Virginia over the two-year period of 1966-
67, following the recurring (and mostly nocturnal) apparitions
of a kind of man-bird ultimately christened the =93Mothman.=94

And  just as Spielberg had Francois Truffaut to impersonate the
French-American scientist/ufologist Jacques Vallee,  Keel is now
portrayed here by Richard Gere as the protagonist of the fiction
version of "The Mothman Prophecies".

While in French bookstores, "Les propheties des ombres" is being
released in a revised edition, with a foreword written by
sociologist and ufologist Pierre Lagrange, the Italian
publishing house Sonzogno is shipping it to bookstores in an
unadulterated and simple translation (labeled =93A True Story=94):
290 pages, 15 Euro.

[Collaboration by Paolo Toselli]


A BOOK ON UFO RELIGIONS

Edisud, the Salerno-based university publishing house, has just
issued an interesting book by Giovanni Pellegrino, entitled "I
credenti degli UFO  - Le nuove religioni ufologiche e UFO-
  correlate" (=93UFO Believers - The New UFO & UFO-Related
Religions=94) (159 pages, 14 Euro), which represents the latest
Italian contribution to a long line of studies on the extensive
annals of UFO-based cultism.

The same author had already covered the argument in a previous
book in 2000, "Il neopaganesimo nella societ=E0 moderna  - La
crisi della visione cristiana del mondo" (=93Neopaganism in Modern
Society - The Crisis of the Christian Worldview=94), with a
chapter on =93Elementi eretici e neopagani presenti nelle
religioni ufologiche=94 (=93Heretic & Neopagan Elements In UFO
Religions=94), and an appendix devoted to the =93Cause sociologiche
dell=92interesse per il mistero degli UFO=94 (=93Sociological Causes
for the Interest in the UFO Mystery=94).

As usual for books not easily accessible on the market, the
UPIAR Book Service (www.upiar.com) has acquired a certain
quantity of both titles, which are available for purchase by
subscribers to the Italian Center for UFO Studies.

[Collaboration by Roberto Labanti]


C.I.S.U. ON-LINE: NEW LAYOUT & A RECORD

On the heels of the unreacheable half-million mark for visitors
registered with Maurizio Verga's UFO On-Line (www.ufo.it), the
Internet site of the Italian Center for UFO Studies (C.I.S.U.
On-Line, www.cisu.org) last week surpassed the 250,000-hits
total, confirming its second- place popularity ranking among
Italian UFO Websites.

The result was achieved despite a few days=92 blackout caused by
the relocation of the site to a new service provider, which was
accompanied by a revamping of the homepage now boasting a new
graphic layout, as well as characterized by simplicity and easy
browsing.

[Collaboration by Maurizio Verga]

Moreover, today marks the inauguration in Viterbo of a new local
Internet site,  "Ufotuscia" (www.ufotuscia.it)  which is
maintained by the provincial branch of the C.I.S.U.: it features
an introduction to the group, its headquarters and its
activities, a detailed catalog of over 110 local sightings, and
a history of Viterbo UFO groups.

[Collaboration by Andrea Bovo, Angelo Ferlicca]

ITALIAN UFO MUSIC AT ROSWELL

The local press has given a nod to and finally recognized the
performance by the Cremona pianist Siro Saracino, who last 18
March garnered great public and critical acclaim in Roswell, at
the UFO International Museum housed in the New Mexico town, with
his concert of pieces inspired by UFOs and the mysteries of the
cosmos organized by the local university.

In addition to his own composition, a toccata precisely entitled
"Roswell 1947", Saracino debuted a "UFO Sonata" composed
expressly for the occasion by another Italian, the composer
Roberto Solci from Ravenna.

[La Provincia di Cremona, 22 May]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Andrea Bovo, Angelo Ferlicca, Roberto Labanti,
Paolo Toselli and Maurizio Verga.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   Jun > Jun 10

                          Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:58:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <Ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 07:08:19 -0700

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
 >>To: <Ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Hamilton

 >>>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds
 >>>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:23:51 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>>Now Bill Hamilton... what the hell is inaccurate? Shovel it out
 >>>Pal, or just admit you got taken... again.

 >>Hey, Pal, this is the attitude that doesn't get us anywhere in
 >>this field. I will only post the info once I have it all
 >>correct.

 >>I am not taken by anything because everything is provisional
 >>with me. The trouble is everything is conclusive with you.


 >Ah, can we say "Spin", Boys and Girls?

Are you spinning, Don?

 >Thanks Bill, I do believe you made my point for me. You made the
 >statement that the Kirkwood/Noel expose has inaccuracies but you
 >fail to point them out, then claim you are still investigating?

I am going to supply some info on this List to the only one who
has the background and experience to evaluate them it seems and
that is GT McCoy.

 >I see, then what we have is Ufology by your proclamation? The
 >facts I stated in my article you claim are inaccurate but you
 >can't or will not point them out... hmmmm... possibly none
 >to point out?

You say... "UFO Magazine first met Noall Bryce Cornwell, alias
Mel Noel and his more recent pseudonym, Guy Kirkwood, at a UFO
lecture held in San Diego in 1990."

I met him in 1977 and never heard him called Noall Bryce
Cornwell --- probably your spin on things! You also state 'Guy
Kirkwood" is a pseudonym. No, that is his name as used on docs
like Driver's licenses. Just the beginning of your articcle is
already inaccurate and a spin in itself!

 >Which leaves the possiblity you were taken in.... again?

Or you are the victim of your own beliefs!

Bill Hamilton







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   Jun > Jun 10

               Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:36:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:00:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:36:46 EDT
 >Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked


 >This article has been around since 1999, but thought the List
 >might enjoy the revist.

Robert,

Why would you post a known lie to UpDates?

Both Bateman and Price-Watts have admitted that this version of
events is untrue. Are you suggesting that this means the Alien
Autopsy is a hoax? You'll need better proof than this but if
you'd like to discuss the AA, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
I suggest that you first order the AA CD set so you have some
idea of what you're talking about.


Ed








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                            Re: Ron Card? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:06:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:01:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Ron Card? - Hall


 >From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 20:01:42 EDT
 >Subject: Ron Card?

 >Hi all,

 >I am looking for information on a reported UFO contact by a man
 >named Ron Card, possibly in Florida or the South Florida Area in
 >the 60's or early 70's, can anyone help?. He supposedly
 >contacted beings from the planet "Venus".

 >Thank you for any information


Albert,

They must have looked like the old comic book character the
'Human Torch'.

- Dick









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   Jun > Jun 10

                 Re: reskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:10:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:03:50 -0400
Subject: Re: reskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Bowden


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:48:01 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >>From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >>Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?


Hi there Robert and Dave,

 >>So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?

 >>Kreskin ends up looking stupid and irresponsible and he's
 >>$50,000 dollars out of pocket - that's if he really does donate
 >>the money to a charity. So what has he really gained?

 >The truth is that we _really_ don't know that he in fact is
 >going to give any kind of money to any charity. Even if he said
 >he would one would be wise to contact that charity and verify..
 >I suspect it won't, then he will come up with some story about
 >how he really did donate but....

Maybe it's time to remind you of my original 'The Amazing
Kreskin' post, sent to UpDates in April.

I taped the interview with the Fox news network (Fox and
Friends) and posted it verbatim.

In the interview Kreskin stated:

 >'I am so convinced about the accuracy of my prediction that I
 >am putting up 50,000 dollars to support my claim.

 >It is my decision that should I be wrong I will turn over to
 >the team of Fox and friends at the Fox news network 50,000 dollars
 >to be distributed to charities that we will determine'

If you really want to find out if The amazing Kreskin actually
coughed up the dough why not get in touch with the Fox news
network?


Dave Bowden







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                   Re: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 6.10.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:25:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:07:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 6.10.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

June 10, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
6.10.02


QUANTA
Science and Technology

Dirty Ice on Mars
http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html

IBM, NASA Collaborate to Support Mars Exploration Rovers
http://www-916.ibm.com/press/prnews.nsf/print/F517769E3685816485256BCD00607B=
4A

Mars in the Morning
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/mars_devore_seti_020606.html

Reclaiming the Moon: Plans for a 21st Century Return
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/moon_nss_020604.html

  Io's Volcanic Surface Captured in Full Motion
http://www.astro.caltech.edu/mirror/keck/news/io.html

First Strike or Asteroid Impact? The Urgent Need to Know the Difference
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/nss_asteroid_020606.html

Earthlike Weather... on the Sun?
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/sun_weather_020603.html

Study Reveals Origin of Jets from Supermassive Black Hole
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/blackhole_jets_020606.html

Black Hole Dynamo: New Source of Free Energy Fills Universe
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/black_hole_020603.html

Has Time Run Out on Einstein's Theory?
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/04/einstein.wrong/index.html

Can a PC Think for Itself?
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/06/09/common.sense.computer.ap/index.html


EXOTICA
Unexplained Phenomena

Federal Judges To Hear Area 51 Case
http://www.lvrj.com/cgi-bin/printable.cgi?/lvrj_home/2002/Jun-04-Tue-2002/ne=
ws/18894771.html

Online Press Conference With Discoverer of Ancient Stone Map
http://english.pravda.ru/chuvirov.html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2002








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                        Serenity Is A Great Mediator

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:43:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:27:24 -0400
Subject: Serenity Is A Great Mediator



Jim Mortellaro is still here, still alive.

I have opted for concrete _action_ _for_ abductees, in lieu of
letting loose with angst and debate, thereby losing energy in
that process verbal.

This is better for us all, and far less detrimental to the
advance of our common cause.

With special thanks to EBK for allowing me to remain here in the
face of my differences with some and to Alfred Lehmberg, who is
a friend. There are others and we know who they are.

The Rense show with myself and Budd Hopkins may be listened
to at Jeff's archives by going to:

http://events.yahoo.com/shows/endoftheline/02archives.html

And clicking on June 6 ...


Most sincerely,

Jim Mortellaro








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                        False UFO Reports From Turkey

From: Erol Erkmen <eerkmen@tuvpo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:50:24 +0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:35:11 -0400
Subject: False UFO Reports From Turkey


False UFO Reports From Turkey

Two UFO sightings, one in Istanbul Beykoz, the other in Antalya,
were reported a few days ago. The one which claimed to be seen
in Istanbul was shot by an amateur camera on 26th of May. Even
though it is a new camera, the shot published B/W and some of
the frames on film were edited, so TUVPO gave start to an
observation. It is obtained that the vision of the shot was
inverted and that it does not bear the colour density of the sky
of the time (Istanbul 6:30 PM). And also it is obtained that the
vision of flying object which is extremely enlarged during the
edition of the film, is a deformed silhouette, so anyone can
suggest their imaginary opinions by watching the video. During
the footage, only Venus could be seen brightly on the stated
horizon. It is clearly observed that, after the invertation
process (negative - positive) the vision had transformed into
the colour and density of the sky of 6:30 PM, and the object is
Venus, the special marks on the tape are signs of the
falsifications on the original footage for many times, and the
published vision is not the original footage.


The second event reported from Antalya. The event which was send
to media by a group named UFO Avcisi (UFO Hunters) also
published by TVs. The children told different stories to the TVs
and they were laughing at the same time. The chairman of UFO
Hunter was shown on the trees with binoculars in his hands.
Another UFO group from Istanbul also interested with the event.
The National Observatory (TUG) is located in Antalya. There are
also foreigner scientists are residing in the observatory that
has got also 150 cm telescope. No evidence was found in the area
which UFO report claimed, in the observation executed by local
police and scientists. The National Observatory explained
scientifically it could be a meteor. Also last year a meteor was
encountered in the same area and scientists participated the
observation. Even the event were reflected as a UFO encounter by
unscientific technics and observaions of some people interested
in UFOs and UFO fans, the event was concluded as a meteor
encounter. A photo of a meteor landing to the Marmara Sea was
shot in 26th May 2002. There are not any circumstances that
cannot be explained in scientific ways and there are no
evidences of outer world lifes in both of two events.

It is found out that some scientists whose branches are related
to space, are preparing to sue such groups which do not have any
carrier and substructure. A few days ago, serious arguements
occured between the chairman of a UFO group and a scientist on
TV. The scientist accused him of deceiving people and of
liarness. After that the chairman of UFO group sued the
scientist for compensation. The court is going to take start in
following days. It seems impossible to win. There upon the
scientist declared that they will counter sue as a whole, in
terms of defeating such forgeries.

TUVPO,tuvpo.com










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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #18

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:07:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:39:38 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #18


Alfred's Odd Observation #18 (Monday -- June 10, 2002)

Like I said, ladies and gentlebunkies, just rock the freaking
head back! Visibility was about 80% of "as good as it gets"
around here this Monday morning... wash the dirty buttermilk
glass from #17 and you get an approximation of it. There was a
perceptible starfield all around which is a great aid in rate
detection of these 'things' that go over, bumpless, in the
night... hmmmm.....

Forgive a short digression...: the observer can easily use
finger/fist/double-fist (1, 5, and 10 degrees respectively) to
gauge the distances between stars in the view field and count
seconds (one-thousand-two-thousand-three-thousand... etc.) as
'objects' race or creep across that measured distance. As one
continues to do this over a period of time one begins to
appreciate the diverse rate of speeds that these 'things'
display and the 'strange' component that this gives them. It
implies different orbital altitudes or objects moving at the
same altitude at dissimilar speeds et al, stuff that lends
quality to ones observations...

Three objects were observed this morning between 03:15 and 03:45
Central, flying nearly one right after the other. All were the
same pale peach color. All maintained a slow steady one degree
every five seconds rate. All were observable over about 45
degrees of arc along their different tracks. The first flew
north. The second flew south. The third flew a couple of degrees
to the left of due east and was the oddest of the three.

The first two shared a magnitude of about zero (so, dimmer than
Sirius) and maintained that bright component throughout their
observation. The third slowly increased its brilliance to as
bright as Jupiter (as seen the night before) and then abruptly
dimmed to about magnitude three, barely visible and requiring
off center viewing to keep it in sight.

I checked with NASA via J-PASS for a forecast of traffic that
'should' be seen for the time period concerned (they make it
_so_ easy), and was not surprised to discover no record of it...

...All in all a vindication of a growing suspicion that things
are not as they appear, good friends and gentlebunkies... and it
gets even weirder than that. As the ufological 'field' gets even
more obscured in our trying times, one can't even see what the
players are doing on that "gridiron", _forgetting_ a useless
scorecard with names that jump from side to side as individual
convenience suits them (and the non-admitted agendas that are
being met)...

...But you know what really steams me, respected reader? It's
when these shape-shifting and self-admitted authoritarian
sociopaths forget these "things that fly" to pursue self-
involved personal agendas, marching the rest of us (in my HUMBLE
estimation) _back_ to the wishful thinking of some earlier time
which has already demonstrated how well it _does not_ work (or
where have we really _gotten_ ufologically since 1947?).

Discussion on the arguments, conscientious expressions of
conscience, and perceptions and insights shared between rational
individuals about the subject -- _threatens_ these seeming
psychopaths who use guile, innuendo, and fallacy to prosecute
their less than transparent ends. Ironically, it is these
individuals who are first to desert their suspicious positions
to pule the predictable protestation that they no longer have
the "time" nor would they desire the "inclination" to continue
the debate... so these _will_ get their wish.

I'll talk to them in mass ('refer' to them) and not individually
as it was them that recused conveniently, them that turned their
artless backs, and them that are apparently reluctant to discuss
(or even support) their flawed, destructive, and convenient
convictions.

I was greeted this morning with reactive evidence of this
artless authoritarianism, and though I won't _deign_ to identify
the writer of this public message, I'll share it, and my
response _to_ it with the appreciated reader _here_ because it's
all grist to ufological mill regarding real reasons why, as a
species, we can't look up into the sky to see what's there!

 >Hello Alfred,

 >You wrote:

 >>Sightings are "down" friends and scabrous bunkies, not because
 >>UFOs are going away, but because there are fewer people LOOKING
 >>for them these days! Lately, people who might otherwise be
 >>pondering the skies are, instead, only looking over worried
 >>shoulders for 'enemies', real AND imagined. They have no TIME
 >>for a puzzling enigma in the skies over their heads while
 >>staring down the suggested barrel of a terrorist's gun! All
 >>part of the master plan (uneasily?) dismissed by Jerry Clark?

 >It's an amazing thing to watch someone take a leaping swan dive
 >into the deep end of an empty cement pool. Oblivious to the fact
 >that there is no water beneath to break the fall.

The writer is quick to proclaim awareness of where the "pool"
is, what a "swan dive" looks like, if the pool even has a
"shallow" end, and whether or not that pool is filled with
"water." Forgetting for a moment the limp attack on character
that this string of empty cliches would convey, this is the same
writer that indicated on the radio recently an ability to "hear"
veracity, honesty, and sincerity in the tone of one's voice.
I'll leave the reader to decide if this same writer is remotely
competent to pronounce upon _my_ character... as we all
understand what kind of person takes a "dive" of ANY kind into
the "deep end" of an "empty cement pool".

 >Since you mentioned (made wild accusations about) the 'abduction
 >report' thread I'd like to point out the following:

The writer has a seeming (and on reflection completely
understandable) difficulty in distinguishing between wild
accusations and honest observations honestly expressed. I point
out that the exact same post (#17) provoking this corrosive and
insulting exchange... written a month ago, even a week ago,
would not have elicited a peep from the responding writer. What
has changed in the interim but my active defense of a position
of some demonstrated quality now that the writer finds
personally, and I suspect invalidly, objectionable. Let's
continue on to see what the writer would "point out."

 >Mark Rodigheir of CUFOS made the statement that 'new' abduction
 >reports to that organization were down for the last couple of
 >years. I wrote a post that was in agreement with it. Will
 >Beuche, the former Webmaster of PEER wrote in to corroborate my
 >and Marks statements. Simple statements (or reporting) of fact.
 >Nothing as 'sinister' as you imply ever transpired.

So the writer would "point out" an _inexplicable_ defense of the
scabrous bunch at CSICOP, the scurrilous bunch in a
Bush/Ashcroft administration, and bunches of other blighted
psychopaths among us and around us hindering disclosure? These
were the identified groups earning my evaluation of 'sinister',
not Mark Rodigheir of CUFOS. The writer, clearly conflicted and
with a singular axe to grind, would interpret #17 as he has
interpreted it here -- when the same post a week or a month ago
may have even gotten a public "right on" or a private "well
done"!  What has changed in the interim? The writer seems to
have convenient sensibilities that change as the wind blows and
seemingly apes the most mercurial of ufological vagaries, while
I think it could be argued that the _only_ one maintaining a
rational consistency or even tone in this exchange is me. I'll
leave that call to the respected reader.

Moreover the short (and cited) discussion regarding ufological
'waves' and a "distracted population" in #17 as good reasons
providing for only an _appearance_ of reduced 'occurrence' falls
on the predicted deaf ears of the writer, is ignored by the
writer, and is seemingly discounted by the writer. For some
*reason* the writer has significant difficulty seeing a hand in
front of his face and seems to prefer some weak literary razzle-
dazzle (with no support) as opposed to _real_ contribution. what
I would aspire to. I'll leave that to the reader, too.

 >You create a fantasy in your own head,

The reader is reminded that they weren't fantasies just days
ago, and I had a _celebrated_ 'head' as far as this writer was
concerned a week ago... or a month ago. What has changed but a
false assumption or unsupported realization by the writer that
if I'm not 'for' him then I must (of needs) be 'against' him, a
pretty juvenile take on things after five years of professional
cordiality if you ask me, demonstrating only the suspect
provenance of his, perhaps, not so inexplicable irritation.
Fantasies? Indeed.

 >your 'imaginings' piss you off,

LOL! Like they don't piss off the writer! That will become more
clear as time goes on, I'd predict. And finally -- no rational
person would agree that there is not an awful lot to be
_righteously_ pissed about. EBK pushed _that_ up the... nose of
mainstream Canadian TV recently, I recall. The writer seems to
conveniently forget that real reasons for disgusted rage
actually exist.

 >and then you express anger toward people in the *real world
 >(*those who live their lives outside of your fantasy) as if they
 >were _actually_ responsible for their behavior in your somewhat
 >fevered dreams.

The writer would pronounce _now_ on the production of the same
"fevered dreams" he found so satisfying last week or last month,
label me delusional, and in the process say so much more about
himself than he has the bare bones competency to say about me.
The writer would have been _much_ better served maintaining his
lack of "desire" and "inclination" to communicate with me about
ufological issues, I begin to suspect.

 >How you manage to turn a simple series of posts into the
 >convoluted and genuinely paranoid plot that you suggest above,
 >boggles my mind.

Where was this writer's confusion, his accusations of paranoia,
and his respect for CSICOP and a Bush/Ashcroft administration a
week or month ago? [g]. Indeed, it is the writer's own mercurial
sensibilities and wind-blown awareness demonstrated here that
are peculiar and not _my_ expressions of conscience.

 >Lately you've taken to attacking some of the 'good-guys' Alfred.

Who are the good guys that the writer refers to? How is 'attack'
defined? How is consistent behavior (heretofore respected by the
writer for many years) suddenly noticed just "Lately"?

 >Maybe a short vacation from the fray is in order.

In as much as the writer has demonstrated the need of a nap for
some time now, I would suggest same for the writer with some
immediacy and with all deliberate speed.

 >When you start
 >to perceive plots and schemes everywhere, and you see 'spooks'
 >lurking in every corner... it's time to do a Dave Brubeck and
 >'take five' bro.

_Again_ the writer insultingly indicates that I have just
"started" behavior that has not changed substantively in half a
decade. How many of us _don't_ perceive "plots and schemes",
suspect "spooks" in "corners" darker than they need to be, or
"wonder" what might be lurking around a future corner... Finally
I'd suggest a review of Lennon/McCartney's "Blackbird" for the
writer if he is truly interested in quality musical advice.

Truly, like a ufological tonsil, this writer seems so corrupted
with fickleness and lack of resolution that he's abdicated his
community responsibilities and joined the other side vis a vis a
"nose to spite the face" mentioned somewhere else. I wonder how
he can expect _anyone_ to accept his pompous proclamations,
imperious pronouncements, or insulting accusations, now.

 >Get a grip.

I think it may be that the writer makes this dismissive
suggestion only because he suspects that he's losing his own.

 >You've created a veritable soap-opera out of what
 >was essentially a pretty dry, innocuous and short-lived series
 >of posts. Check the archive and reread em. Nothing 'heavy' going
 >on except inside your head. :)

I'll let the rank and file reader decide the veracity of the
preceding statement, something that the writer, by _all_
reports, would seldom (if ever) do. Start with the obfuscating
trademark emoticon, reader.

At the end now, with no snippage on my part, that's enough. I
continue to watch our skies. Rock your own head back, when you
can, good reader. They continue to fly despite the carping,
complaining, and confusion that goes on down here. Read on.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 10

                   Re: Two Anniversaries This Week - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:01:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:41:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Two Anniversaries This Week - Jones


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:36:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Two Anniversaries This Week


 >Good day Sean!

 >Missed anniversaries? Oh yeah...

 >Maybe you should have had that cup of coffee first after you
 >woke up and before you started to press the keys on your
 >computer.

Erm, yes, I guess I should have drunk that first cup of coffee
before I put finger to keyboard :o)

 >For the record, the day you wrote your e-mail to UFO UpDates was
 >my birthday, but that is okay if you forgot.  ;o)

I take it the card never arrived ;o)

 >Apollo 11 blasted off to the Moon on July 17 (I remember since
 >that is my younger sister's birthday) and Neil did not place his
 >foot on the Moon until July 20 (not June 5), 1969.

 >As for the two spacecraft you mentioned, Voyager 2 was launched
 >on August 20 (I remember this too since that is my older
 >sister's birthday) and Voyager 1 was launched a few days later
 >on September 5 (not June 4), 1977.

 >Finally, Pioneer 10 (launched March 2, 1972) and Pioneer 11
 >(launched April 5, 1973) preceeded the launch of the two Voyager
 >spacecraft and, although not as fast as them, were the first
 >"interstellar" spacecraft launched from Earth (at least in
 >modern times...).

 >Nick Balaskas

To clarify my mistook.

The dates actually came from a calendar that I have on my desk
and I did not bother to check the before I posted. I was
unusually lax as I would have checked them before under "normal"
conditions, so I consider myself duly chastised.

One thing that this mistake did bring to mind.

(Before I start, I am not a conspiracy buff)

If "the press" can make _legitimate_ mistakes like that, both in
print and on TV could it lead others into making similar
mistakes, and when do they then become _fact_?

If I may mis-quote "history is written by the victors"

Also

George Orwell, in his book 1994,

I paraphrase again, "we cannot change the present, but we can
change the past, instead of saying that we would produce 150
units, and we only produced 120 units, we will therefore say we
originally said that we would produce 100 units, so we have then
exceeded our estimates by 20 units"


Follow my drift?
--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







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   Jun > Jun 10

                          Re: Got Sack? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:38:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:46:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Got Sack? - Lehmberg


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:04:10 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Got Sack?

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:51:50 -0500
 >>Subject: Got Sack?

<snip>

...More than willing to respect an individual's wishes regarding
consideration for their personal lack of "desire" and
"inclination" to respond, respected, tolerant, and patient
reader, I share that writer's post regarding my "...Got Sack?"
piece with you, along with my response to it.

 >Hello Alfred,

 >Wow, and I was wondering why it's been oh so peaceful on the
 >List for the last couple of months. :)

The writer of the preceding artfully assumes an amused tone,
good reader, all jocularity and trademark smiles... forgetting
unjust behaviors, inappropriately prosecuted attitudes, and a
cornucopia of trashed feelings. But remembering he's only
fiddling tunelessly while a ufological Rome burns, the reader
should be reminded, ".Rock your head back and they are there,
while we quibble, after all."

 >My thoughts?

Were this writer to demonstrate that he was considered (if _not_
considerate), non-canted (if _not_ perfectly balanced), and
sincere -- bereft of pointlessness and cheap, groundless, or
unsupported insult ? Yes! Of course. Where have _I_ ever
indicated otherwise.

 >Never have I seen _anyone_ go the lengths that Mr. Mortellaro
 >has gone to to promote himself, and to (forcefully) gain
 >acceptance for his 'case'.

Mortellero has made a _total_ of two radio show appearances, I
remind the reader. How many has the writer made? Dozens? How
many times, on this List alone, has the writer rather forcefully
attempted to gain acceptance for his own case and the reality of
the abduction phenomena in general? Too many times to count. I
ask the reader: Who is the more self-absorbed?

 >Most abductees have to be prodded and cajoled into going public.
 >Mr. Mortellaro seems to be engaged in a non-existent popularity
 >contest which he approaches as if it was a sanctioned Olympic
 >event.

And why wouldn't he, given what _some_ have done to derail his
honest attempt at formally and publicly examining his experience
for the benefit of researchers and abductees alike?

And _have_ some born apparently false witness that Jim was a
'liar' -- that he'd stolen the abduction accounts of others
"word for word"? I've seen evidence of some of the whispers
flying around behind the scenes and given an opportunity to see
just how strong the language used was. One called Jim a "f__king
liar."

Just what, besides the writer's personal experience, perhaps,
gives the writer any more authority to judge the reality of
Jim's experience than Jim himself. Wounded pique? Threatened
turf? What... really?

But some wouldn't stop there. Some continued a whisper campaign
to inform others on the List that Jim was _indeed_ lying about
his experience. When that tactic didn't seem to pan out, one
attempted to smear the research attempt (the true facts of which
Jim's detractors knew and know _nothing_ about [no fault of
Jim's]) in that the methodology wasn't... acceptable.
Acceptable? Isn't it decidedly odd when a highly educated
medical team gets criticism on research techniques from someone
who has never conducted any. ...Irony one can cut with a knife.

 >He came onto this List and informed everyone that he was an
 >"abductee."

.And the writer is perhaps different in some substantial
(telling) way, I point out to the reader?

 >Everybody seems to have accepted that and taken him
 >at his word. It seems that the only one hung up on Mr.
 >Mortellaro's status as an "abductee" is Mr. Mortellaro himself.
 >It makes me wonder just 'what' it is, _really_, that he is
 >trying, with almost breathless desperation, to prove to
 >everyone.

No, I must point out to the reader that the only one seemingly
hung up on Mr. Mortellero's status as an abductee is the
_writer_ by all reports and indications. If Jim is "breathless"
about anything, it's to get to the bottom of the abduction
enigma, is my experience -- over _many_ years now. In fact, it
is only significant 'others' that seem "breathless" in their
attempts to set up fallaciously invalid and duplicitous
roadblocks in a scurrilous campaign to bring that innocent
effort down.

Although it seems to be difficult for the writer, the writer
could get honest about this for a moment. There are countless
examples of how the misbehavior of some is egregiously suspect
when it comes to Jim. The most cursory glance at archival posts
speak to this. And by the way, if one wanted to discuss inherent
honesty, the writer could juxtapose _his_ language about
abduction with Jim's, who continually uses the words, "perceived
abduction" to describe his and other's encounters. Jim isn't
pushing his interpretation of the reality of his experience on
anyone -- least of all himself. Others could be accused of that
long, long before Jim would be expected to bear _that_ particular
cross.

 >If I recall, it was _his_ choice not to post because _he_ was
 >'upset' with the lack of response from List members. Now _we_
 >are supposed to "invite" him back? And according to you, with an
 >"I'm sorry," and a "pretty please with sugar on top." (?)

No, the writer ignores the macro to embrace the convenient
micro, respected reader, given the fact that Jim's story is now
supported by the well respected likes of a Medical Team, Budd
Hopkins and potentially David Jacobs and that he is now involved
in the most comprehensive bit of research the abduction question
has ever garnered, it seems to me. No, I'm simply asking that
some grow up a little, forget past differences and petty prides
for the sake of the issue at hand, and extend some common
courtesy.

...In a word, though, yes! ..."Pretty please with sugar on top"
would be _most_ welcome. ...Serge and Bobbie could be invited
back too, while we're at it.

 >In his quest for recognition and attention maybe he now realizes
 >how he has cut off his own nose and spited his own face by making
 >the premature melodramatic Hollywood exit that he made.

The writer does not take into consideration, good reader, how
wounded and betrayed one can feel when one makes a disclosure
among friends and subsequently discovers fewer friends present
than one had thought were there! I can _testify_ how badly
wounded Jim was, very needlessly, as it turned out. Appealed in
a higher 'court', Jim's vindication seems assured if not
complete. He _is_ the real deal, as I have indicated. Some
should just get _used_ to it.

 >EBK did
 >not throw him off the List, and neither did any of its members.
 >Why does anybody have to "invite" him back? _We_ didn't go
 >anywhere. He did!

The writer blithely misses the point, reader. not 'unsubbed' but
ejected, none the less, like if _I_ walked away right now it
would be because of some of the more repellant principals in
principle running me off with their odious behavior -- like
UpDates was use-net. Like somebody was corrosively flatulent in
the UpDates 'room' and was serially flatulent with extreme
prejudice... I'm run out. Oh sure I can go back in, even
speak... but if I'm blowing chunks...?

 >Hey, how about _he_ asks us if he can come back on the List?
 >After all, it was he who chronically complained about how
 >screwed up the List is.

The writer could be reminded, honored reader, that in some places
an inability to tolerate criticism is the first step to a tyranny
serving the few at the clear expense of the many.

 >As far as I'm concerned he can post or not as he wishes.
 >Personally, I haven't 'missed' him at all.

The reader can be assured that there is no surprise _there_.

 >BUT... (big 'but')

 >I _reserve the right_ to respond to his on-list proclamations
 >and to express my opinions (as I choose to or not) when he does
 >post. No 'special' treatment. We're all adults here.

More irony, good reader, as the writer has exercised his rights
many, many times without prejudice and should find no need to
campaign for it now.

Additionally, I wonder how many others can similarly reserve the
right to reply? That would be, oh let me count them up, that
would be, ah... everyone! Anyone, on the list at any rate!

Even if some continue to believe that Jim Mortellero is a liar,
good reader (or in the words of one, "a f__king liar") wouldn't
it be the "adult" and consequently _more_ effective thing to let
Jim play this out without harassment. After all, aren't we ALL
dedicated to finding out the "ultimate truth" of this conundrum?
Additionally, shouldn't some have more faith in an entire
medical community, Budd Hopkins (whose name has been invoked by
the responding writer many times) or Dr. David Jacobs... to
arrive at the truth of Jim's experience? Or, is all that some
are interested in, really, is belittling and discrediting Jim.
The writer has belittled Jim, good reader, belittled him so
much, after all, it may have, by now, just become a point of
pride and easy reflex.

 >"If you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen."


Which, in this case good reader, is a little like saying, "If
you don't want a bullet in the face, don't stick your head up
over the counter during the robbery," not to put too fine a
point on it.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 10

                       Roswell: Final Declassification

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:47:48 -0400
Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

HISTORY CHANNEL USA

World Premiere

History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
site with scholars from the University of New Mexico.


Airs Thursday, June 13 at 8pm EDT / 7pm CDT

http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/index.html








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   Jun > Jun 10

                Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:28:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:49:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Maccabee


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:50:27 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >>From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >>Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >>So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?>

 >>Kreskin ends up looking stupid and irresponsible and he's
 >>$50,000 dollars out of pocket - that's if he really does donate
 >>the money to a charity. So what has he really gained?

 >>Why on earth should a man risk his professional reputation for
 >>absolutely no benefit and much loss?

 >Even Art Bell was asking the same thing: Why?

 >I sure don't know, but there must be at least two reasons: a
 >good one, and the real one.

I think it is distinctly ;possible... or probable/... that
Kreskin thought the group of UFO believers would be so gullible
as to see things that weren't there. In other words, he assumed
the people would be so subject to suggestion ("suggestible")
that all he had to do was "gesture hypnotically" (as Mandrake
the Magician of years ago!!) and "presto"... there would be
saucers for all or many to see.

The fact that the number of "sightings" was few is a testament
to the reality checking of most human beings. So maybe Kreskin's
experiment provides us with some information we didn't have
before.








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                Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Thompson

From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:45:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:51:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why? - Thompson


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:20:17 +0100
 >Subject: Kreskin UFOs A Hoax - But Why?

 >So what was the Kreskin UFO hoax all about?


He's got you all talking about him. That's why.

Paul Thompson








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   Jun > Jun 11

                Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:49:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Tonnies


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: <tv@lorencoleman.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >World Premiere

 >History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >unidentified metal object

<snip>

Huh!? An "unidentified metal object" from the Nat'l Archives?

I highly doubt the History Channel's treatment is going to blow
any of us away, but at the same time I'd like to think they
would steer clear of the 'artifact'/piece of metal presented
as ET in '97.

So is this something new?  I'm curious.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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   Jun > Jun 11

               Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:36:19 -0700

<snip>

 >>This article has been around since 1999, but thought the List
 >>might enjoy the revist.

 >Robert,

 >Why would you post a known lie to UpDates?

 >Both Bateman and Price-Watts have admitted that this version of
 >events is untrue. Are you suggesting that this means the Alien
 >Autopsy is a hoax? You'll need better proof than this but if
 >you'd like to discuss the AA, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
 >I suggest that you first order the AA CD set so you have some
 >idea of what you're talking about.

Robert wasn't 'lying', as far as I can tell. He didn't try to
insinuate that the AA was a known fake just because of the bogus
"tent footage" (as others have certainly done).

The AA suffers from undeserved guilt by association, but we need
to remember that the tent footage _is_ a known fake, and deal
with it as such.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies









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   Jun > Jun 11

               Bigfoot, Chupacabras & Other Strange Creatures

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:22:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:53:14 -0400
Subject: Bigfoot, Chupacabras & Other Strange Creatures


Bigfoot, Chupacabras and Others Strange Creatures An Essay

Visit:

http://www.geocities.com/ufomiami.geo/Bigfoot.html


Very truly yours,

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://www.geocities.com/ufomiami.geo/index.html








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:21:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:56:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 05:13:27 -0400
 >Subject: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >TO: Chief, Criminal Section - Civil Rights Division
 >U. S. Department of Justice
 >P. O. Box 66018
 >Washington, DC 20035-6018

 >FROM: Larry W. Bryant
 >3518 Martha Custis Drive
 >Alexandria, VA 22302

 >SUBJECT: Request for Your Investigative and Remedial Intervention

 >DATE: June 8, 2002

 >According to the enclosed F.B.I. memorandum of Jan. 18, 1967, a
 >citizen of Chesapeake, Va., experienced an episode of UFO-E.T.
 >abduction -- complete with such classic elements as the
 >description of his alien abductors and the ensuing period of
 >"missing time."

<snip>

 >In the meantime, as further background on the scope and depth of
 >this civil-rights-depriving invasion/terrorism, I refer you to
 >the book "Taken: Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda," an
 >anthology of first-person accounts compiled by the late Karla
 >Turner (who includes her own family's experience). This book has
 >inspired a Cable-TV mini-series, by the same title, produced by
 >Steven Spielberg for airing in December 2002.

 >Thank you for helping coordinate this long-overdue intervention
 >into such an officially neglected area of criminality.

<snip>

Hello Larry,

Kudos on an excellent letter and a brilliant idea. It's about time.
Saturday night on SDI one of the callers raised the question of
the US government's liabilities should they ever admit to having
had full knowledge of the UFO phenomenon all along.

I commented that one of the first things that would happen would
be a flurry of litigation. Not just from families like the
Mantell's who actually lost a loved one and were never told the
truth, but from each and every citizen they impotently _allowed_
to be repeatedly abducted and traumatized.

The day disclosure does come, there will be a lot for those who
knew, and kept the knowledge to themselves, to answer for. If
nothing else, those bastards have left witnesses and contactees
to dangle in the wind and to fend for themselves. A big part of
their job is to insure and protect our (public) safety. They
have failed miserably when it comes to the abductions that have
been perpetrated by the UFO occupants upon the American
citizenry.

I'm all for a class action suit if anybody is willing to take
the case pro bono.  A 'millionaire' I am not.  :)

Well written Larry. Great idea. Good work.

John Velez








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   Jun > Jun 11

                         Kreskin UFO No Show Update

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:22:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:59:34 -0400
Subject: Kreskin UFO No Show Update



From: The Electric Warrior (Kurt Jonach)

------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Web Log June 11, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
LAS VEGAS UFO NO SHOW (UPDATE)
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: Electrogravitic Sunset (Classic Flying Saucers)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewElectrograviticSunsetThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - News that a well known mentalist had
predicted one of the largest UFO sightings in recorded history
spread rapidly through the UFO community last month. Those of
you ready to believe the Amazing Kreskin's promise to make a
$50,000 charitable donation if it didn't happen may be surprised
to learn that the entertainer now says he won't pay.

Kreskin, who never expected to see anything unusual, says an
event that occurred in Las Vegas happened as predicted, when he
planted the suggestion in the minds of his audience to see
strange objects in the Nevada desert. The fact that people
believed they saw UFOs served to prove his point. So, he owes
nothing.

How did he do this? That's a good question. Kreskin does not
claim to have any telepathic or psychic powers. The simplest
explanation is that Kreskin plays mind games -- "mental" slight
of hand. An amateur magician offers a good explanation at
Rense.com: "Kreskin is a 'mentalist' and hypnotist and none of
the things he does has anything to do with psychic powers. His
illusions are all well established tricks which can be found in
books available from any good magic store."

Kreskin's antics included a spot on Art Bell's radio talk-show
'Coast to Coast'. Those familiar with his act warned it was
probably a clever publicity stunt. The UFO community, which
offered speculative scenarios in expectation of the en masse
public sighting, now says Kreskin's UFOs were a hoax.

Peter Davenport of National UFO Reporting Center said, "The type
of prediction that has been made by Kreskin recently is exactly
what makes life difficult for serious minded investigators."

Sauceruney reports that 'Opie and Anthony', a syndicated radio
show out of New York City that hosted Kreskin following his
prediction, criticized him for backing out of his charitable
donation pledge. "They take the subject seriously, surprisingly,
and are just as annoyed with the nutcases who drag the whole
thing down as we are."

Kreskin himself describes the outcome in more heroic terms.
"You are part of a gigantic experiment," Kreskin told the crowd.
"Damn it, some of the members of the intelligence community
better raise their intelligence." The Las Vegas Sun reports that
the entertainer came to realize that the mind control techniques
he employs could be used on the masses, perhaps for evil.

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

Get the Wallpaper
http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewElectrograviticSunset.jpg

Download a 600x600 version of the classic flying saucers
depicted in 'Electrogravitic Sunset', for your Desktop

The Electric Warrior thanks Sauceruney for the email report
regarding 'Opie and Anthony'.

http://www.sauceruney.net

-----------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 11, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

------------------------------------------------------------
The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the content of Web
links. Content reproduced here is for informational purposes
only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com





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   Jun > Jun 11

                    Astronomy Picture Of The Day Archive

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:15:06 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:02:08 -0400
Subject: Astronomy Picture Of The Day Archive


Hello folks

I thought some would like to view this webpage

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Its well worth a visit but before browsing make yourself
a coffee.

--

Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888








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               Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:10:33 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:04:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Hamilton


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: <tv@lorencoleman.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >World Premiere

 >History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
 >site with scholars from the University of New Mexico.

 >Airs Thursday, June 13 at 8pm EDT / 7pm CDT

 >http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/index.html

Now, how is it that the General Accounting Office never found
these records and came up empty-handed?

In 1994 the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), an
investigative agency that works at the request of Congress,
began a quest to obtain government documents regarding an event
that took place half a century ago, but which still remains
clouded by suspicion: the July 1947 retrieval of an object in
the New Mexico desert.

The first official statement on the case came from the public
affairs office at a nearby military facility, Roswell Army Air
Field, which announced that a wrecked "flying disc" had been
recovered. A day later, Army Air Force officials offered a
different description of the object that fell from the sky -- it
was not a disc or other form of unidentified flying object, but
rather a giant weather balloon used for radar tracking.

This discrepancy of explanations sparked decades of fascination
with Roswell, and today the event is viewed as a major
historical landmark in the study of UFOs. Many UFO researchers
believe that the military did in fact find an alien craft and
the bodies of the creatures that traveled inside. They allege
that a long-standing government cover-up has shielded the
purported close encounter from the public.

Public interest in Roswell has skyrocketed in recent years, and
as a result, at least one member of Congress made an effort to
track down government records on the incident. In response to
queries from his constituents, New Mexico Representative Steven
Schiff began digging for documents in 1993. (Schiff also had a
personal connection to one of the more popular UFO researchers,
Karl Pflock, whose wife worked on Schiff's staff.) Schiff says
that "most Americans don't believe they were told the full story
[about Roswell] by their government."

Unsatisfied with the Defense Department's response to his
request for information (he later told Larry King that "I was
pretty clearly getting the run-around"), Schiff turned to the
GAO, the "investigative arm" of Congress, and asked them to
prepare a report on the status of government records related to
the Roswell incident.

Some eighteen months in the making, the GAO report, "Results of
a Search for Records Concerning the 1947 Crash Near Roswell, New
Mexico," was issued in July 1995. In it, the GAO summarizes its
investigation and reproduces the small number of documents it
unearthed.

Among the records that did turn up, there was little mention of
extraterrestrials. A previously released FBI teletype message
included in the report did state that "DISC AND BALLOON BEING
TRANSFERRED TO WRIGHT FIELD BY SPECIAL PLANE FOR EXAMINAT
[sic]." And a declassified history of the 509th Bomb group,
which was stationed at RAAF, mentions briefly that the "Office
of Public Information was kept quite busy during the month
answering inquiries on the 'flying disc,' which was reported to
be in the possession of the 509th Bomb Group. The object turned
out to be a radar tracking balloon."

That was the story that the military gave the public in 1947,
but recent Air Force research conducted in response to the GAO
inquiry suggests that this was no ordinary balloon assembly. The
object that came down near Roswell, according to the Air Force's
1995 publication, "The Roswell Report: Fact Versus Fiction in
the New Mexico Desert," was most likely the remains of a top
secret research program named Project MOGUL. The aim of the
project was to determine the ability of balloon-carried acoustic
sensors to detect Soviet nuclear tests.

For thousands of Americans, this explanation remains
unconvincing. Speculation about what happened at Roswell will
not be dampened by the GAO report, which notes that key Roswell
Army Air Field (RAAF) records from the relevant period have been
inexplicably destroyed. These include "RAAF administrative
records (from Mar. 1945 through Dec. 1949) and RAAF outgoing
messages (from Oct. 1946 through Dec. 1949)." In a press release
announcing the GAO's findings, Representative Schiff noted that
the "missing records leave unanswered questions."

UFO author Stanton Friedman is one of many ufologists who have
pointed out shortcomings of the GAO's investigation. In his most
recent book, TOP SECRET/MAGIC, Friedman writes:

"[T]he GAO reviewed only the FOIA [Freedom of Information Act]
files of the CIA, FBI, and NSA [National Security Agency],
rather than the entire files, as is borne out by one of the
tables in the report. Surely the documents the GAO saw wouldn't
have included highly classified materials! Based on my own past
experiences, these agencies should not be trusted to do their
own searches. The GAO should have demanded that their staff gain
access to the potentially useful files of these agencies."

Representative Schiff says that even in light of the GAO's
findings, he doubts the Roswell controversy will die down any
time soon. As he told Larry King: "After fifty years, even
though some people are still living from that situation, I don't
see enough evidence now to resolve it to everyone's
satisfaction. I think there will continue to be a debate. I
think the GAO report will go further to fuel the debate."

The GAO researchers who delved into the Roswell controversy
would probably agree. Having come up essentially empty-handed
after its "extensive search for government records," the GAO can
at least state with certainty, as it did in the report, that
"the debate on what crashed at Roswell continues."

In this era of tightened security, the government debunkers are
pulling out the stops and will make one final attempt to squash
the Roswell case and put us back on its own agenda.

With sincere regrets for the death of truth...

P.S. Please view this program and write the History Channel your
opinion and knowledge of the GAO findings. We still have a voice
left, at least, for a little while longer.


Bill Hamilton






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                Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:58:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:07:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Randle


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: <tv@lorencoleman.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >World Premiere

 >History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
 >site with scholars from the University of New Mexico

List, All -

This is a story that I have been chasing for the last five
years. I followed the course of this material from Washington,
DC, to Maxwell Air Force Base and finally back to Washington and
the National Archives. In fact, I told the Archives they had the
material when their response to my FOIA request was to suggest
that I contact Headquarters, USAF. I responded that they had the
material, told them when they had gotten it, and who,
specifically had sent it. They then asked me to wait three
months while they indexed it.

There are actually more than eleven boxes and one of them
contained the court martial transcript of a doctor assigned to
Roswell but that had nothing to do with UFOs and took place some
ten years later (1957). I don't know why it was in the boxes,
but it was, in fact, the original transcript and should have
been sent back to JAG rather than being filed with the Roswell
stuff. I filled out a form to have it sent back.

There were some interesting things in those files. McAndrew had
suggested a testimonial dinner for Charles Moore for all his
help with Mogul. There were formerly classified evaluations of
various 8th Air Force commanders including Blanchard which does
away with this "loose cannon" nonsense. And there was lots of
crap that meant nothing but filled box after box.

I will point out that the stuff I was after through my twenty or
thirty FOIA requests to various agencies was not there. I
continue that search, which hints as to what I have been doing
on the Roswell investigation. While others keep chasing new
witnesses like the somewhat unreliable Tex (who really should
have been called Swede), I have been trying to fill in the
document trail. I know where it is but I'm having trouble with
the government allowing me to walk along it.

And for those of you who think I might have violated the
confidentiality agreement I signed with the producers, it only
covered material that I hadn't seen and that they had
discovered. Had it not been for my research, and telling NARA
that they had the stuff, this documentary probably wouldn't have
gotten off the ground.

The point here, I suppose, is to let you know that there are
some interesting points that were found but it certainly isn't
the Final Declassification.


KRandle







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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 356

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@tiscali.it>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:12:37 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:08:49 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 356


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 356 -  30 MAY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Inauguration of the New C.I.S.U. Headquarters
- Privitera, General and Ufologist, Dies
- Ufologists and Infiltrations by Intelligence Services


INAUGURATION OF THE NEW C.I.S.U. HEADQUARTERS

Saturday 15 June will mark the inauguration of the new
headquarters in Turin of the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(CISU), which also serves as the headquarters for the national
secretaryship and the central archives of the association.

As previously announced, at the end of last January, the Turin
branch of the C.I.S.U. moved after 23 years from its historic
offices at Via Briccarello 6, which were originally rented (in
June 1979), as the local publishing house for the journal
"Notiziario UFO", by then Turin branch of Centro Ufologico
Nazionale (CUN).

The new headquarters is located in a wide basement at the
southwest edge of Turin, easily accessible both by car and
public transportation, which will allow for the adequate hosting
not only of the group's weekly meetings but, most importantly,
of its archives, library and warehouse  as well as the materials
for the C.I.S.U. secretaryship, which comprise the greatest
assembly of ufological material and documentation in existence
in Italy, and one of the biggest in Europe.

For this  occasion, the headquarters will be open to visitors
for the entire day, between the hours of 10 a.m. and 11 p.m.,
with a dinner and a social supper, as well as afternoon
refreshments. Members of C.I.S.U. northwestern members will
receive a personal invitation. Others interested in
participating may contact the Center's local officials by
telephone or e-mail at the already known addresses.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino]


PRIVITERA, GENERAL AND UFOLOGIST, DIES

Saturday 11 May was the date of the passing at age 70, in
Florence, of Army-General (retired) Michelangelo Privitera.

Few knew about him, but Privitera had a not-secondary role in
some developments concerning relations between Italian ufology
and military authorities: interested personally in the UFO
subject, he collaborated since the early 1970's with the Centro
Ufologico Nazionale, particularly participating in some case
investigations in Tuscany, as well as even writing a few
articles published (unsigned) in "Notiziario UFO".

Privitera was not the first and has not been the last of Italian
military officials who have cultivated an ongoing interest in
UFOs and a concrete (though not official) collaboration with
civilian students. Particularly memorable, however, is his
contribution which gave precious leads that led to the CUN's
(and, subsequently, other associations') successfully obtaining,
in 1977, the first release ever undertaken in our country of
documents related to UFO sightings by military personnel: an
historic development which was extremely promising yet
unfortunately ruined by narcissism and the search for personal
notoriety on the part of some young ufologists, who passed on
copies of the documents to journalists, with predictable and
untimely media noise and the resulting interruption of what
already was, in that period, a gradual opening of the Italian
military UFO archives (hence delayed by almost 20 years).

[Collaboration by Paolo Fiorino]


UFOLOGISTS AND INFILTRATIONS BY INTELLIGENCE SERVICES

And speaking of relations with the military and with
"intelligence" services, the words and sparks were flying in the
last few weeks between two of the most visible exponents of the
Centro Ufologico Nazionale (CUN), Corrado Malanga and Roberto
Pinotti, who have nearly come to blows in a curious and at times
surreal  debate.

After having been active in the CUN from 1973 to 1998 (and for
20 years as a national director and leader of the scientific
committee), Malanga distanced himself in a blaze of controversy,
at the time of the break between Pinotti and Maurizio Baiata, by
decisively aligning himself with the latter and with his
publications ("UFO Network" and then "Stargate"), and by not
passing up the opportunity to accuse his former colleague and
friend of having "sold out" to secret service entities in order
to cover up the truth about UFOs (besides accusing him of making
outrageous statements, as well as boasting accomplishments and
credits from official institutions).

Increasingly, Pinotti defended himself by returning the same
claim (besides against all his old internal enemies of the last
30 years) back on Baiata and also Malanga himself, although not
openly naming them, essentially conceding the possibility that
they only were unknowingly being directed by "intelligence"
services. Most recently, for instance, in an article entitled
"The Intelligence And We" on the present issue of his monthly
"UFO Notiziario", Pinotti reaffirmed his conviction that all
internal upheavals in the CUN from 1973 through today have
precisely been the fruit of some institutional "unseen hand."

[UFO Notiziario, No. 32, May]

Malanga's reaction was not unexpected, and the chemist from Pisa
has entrusted to the Internet a long text in which he recounts
various "backstage" goings-on and offers his conclusion that all
Italian UFO associations (except, obviously, the one he is
currently part of) are more or less puppets who are in the know
about one or another secret service entity (from the Italian
SISMI to the CIA, from Mossad to the KGB).

[Arup Forum, 29 May]

Any comment that we could make on this hardly instructive debate
would be superfluous.


Collaborators on this edition were:
Paolo Fiorino and Gian Paolo Grassino.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   Jun > Jun 11

                         Re: Year Of The UFO - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:18:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:10:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Year Of The UFO - Velez


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:50:59 -0400
 >Subject: Year Of The UFO

<snip>

 >After all, in 3 short months (June, July and August) the Air
 >Force collected about 1000 sighting reports. Why wasn't this
 >sufficient to convince everyone that something strange was going
 >on?

 >We now know that some at the upper levels of the Air Force were
 >seriously considering the (gulp!) Interplanetary Hypothesis!!

 >So why did General Samford slam the lid down when he could have
 >done the opposite?

 >Why are we stuck in the "tradition" that there is nothing to UFO
 >sightings?

 >Read http://brumac.8k.com/1952YEAROFUFO/1952YEAROFUFO.html

Hi Bruce,

Great article, excellent info. Everyone should read it, not just
the newbies. And it all leaves me amazed at the fact that there
are _still_ UFO skeptics in the world. When taken as a whole the
evidence is overwhelming for an ET presence here on Earth.

"There is no one so blind as he(she) who will not see."

Regards,

John Velez








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                      Re: Stolen Documents - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:23:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Stolen Documents - McGonagle



 >From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thursday, May 16, 2002 9:41 PM
 >Subject: Stolen Documents


 >Please be aware that some documents have been stolen from a
 >British ufologist. They consist of personal correspondence
 >to/from Sir Victor Goddard and Brinsley Le Poer Trench (Earl of
 >Clancarty) and have references to ufology in them.

Just to let everyone know, these have been returned
(anonymously). No doubt copies will have been taken, but at
least the originals are back where they belong. Thankyou to
anyone that played any part in their return.

Regards,

Joe








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                 Re: oswell: Final Declassification - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:42:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:14:09 -0400
Subject: Re: oswell: Final Declassification - Rudiak


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:47:48 -0400
 >Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >World Premiere

 >History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
 >site with scholars from the University of New Mexico.

The National Archives has denied for the last 20 years having
anything on Roswell, classified or unclassified.  Remember,
e.g., when Congressmen Schiff got sent there by the Air Force in
1994?  The Archives told him they didn't have anything, and,
furthermore, the Air Force knew it.  That's when Schiff felt he
was getting the runaround.

So now, all of a sudden, they have something?  11 boxes of
classified material no less.

What do you want to bet it's just more material on Project
Mogul? Furthermore, the "scholars from the University of New
Mexico" will no doubt be representatives of the strong CSICOP
contingent they have there.

I smell yet another debunking rat.

David Rudiak








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                            Re: Got Sack? - Trout

From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:30:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:16:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Got Sack? - Trout


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:38:07 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Got Sack?

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:04:10 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Got Sack?


 >>Hello Alfred,

 >>Wow, and I was wondering why it's been oh so peaceful on the
 >>List for the last couple of months. :)


 >The writer of the preceding artfully assumes an amused tone,
 >good reader, all jocularity and trademark smiles... forgetting
 >unjust behaviors, inappropriately prosecuted attitudes, and a
 >cornucopia of trashed feelings.

  I very much appreciate UFO UpDates, and the hard work
of EBK, but I've also observed over several years that a
certain un-restraint has manifested and been allowed to run
on a bit.

As someone who, most of the time, stays on the sidelines, I wish
to echo and commend Mr. Lehmberg's well-expressed comments.

It's certainly useful to read the opinions stated by those on
this List, but counter-productive when those opinions are
corrosively stated and overlaid with personal overtones not
vital to the discussion - as has been oftentimes the case with
the individual who is the subject of Mr. Lehmberg's comments as
quoted above.


Bev Trout
Iowa MUFON State Director











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               Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:07:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:18:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Goldstein


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: <tv@lorencoleman.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >World Premiere

 >History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
 >site with scholars from the University of New Mexico.

 >Airs Thursday, June 13 at 8pm EDT / 7pm CDT

 >http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/index.html

@#&$#&$er,  I won't be able to see this as I am over in Germany.
I am sure there will be lots of posts concerning this show and
Roswell. For the sake of all us posters overseas, can the firsts
posts please start out with an overview of the contents of the
show?

Kevin Randle, I can't wait to hear your analysis.


Thanks,

Josh










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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Part I

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:48:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:22:44 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part I


Good Morning, All -

The following message is in three parts because it got longer
than I intended and it broke into three pieces rather easily.
This is something that I have thought about for a long time and
should offend practically everyone on the list.

Maybe now, after the eruption over the legitimacy of the claims
by Guy Kirkwood/Mel Noel/whoever, it's time to examine this idea
of UFO frauds. Royce Meyers, I believe, has gone a long way in
doing this, with his web site that exposes some of the more
outrageous frauds.

The problem though is that we continue to reinvent the wheel.
Years after a hoax has been put to rest and those involved in it
exposed, it resurfaces, maybe in a slightly different guise, but
it comes back. I think of the myth of the Bermuda Triangle and
the Philadelphia Experiment here.

Vincent Gaddis is usually credited with creating the Bermuda
Triangle with his Argosy article in the early 1960s that
featured a report on the five Avengers that were lost in
December, 1945. From there others began to expand it until it
covered quite a bit of ocean and it seemed that truly mysterious
things were happening there.

That is, it seemed mysterious until Lawrence David Kusche wrote
'The Bermuda Triangle Mystery - Solved'. Naturally I bought the
book, figuring I would find another dumb theory about the
Triangle, but when I finished, I believed that he had, in fact,
solved the mystery. No vortices, no alien ships and no Atlantean
mystery beams. Just poor research and poor reporting until
Kusche came along.

A personal digression here. In 1979 I became the director of
intelligence at the 928th Tactical Airlift Group which was a
subordinate unit to the 440 Tactical Airlift Wing which had lost
an aircraft in the Bermuda Triangle. Given my position and my
security clearance, I asked my counterpart at Wing headquarters
about the loss of the aircraft. He told me it had crashed and
they had recovered wreckage from it. He asked if I wanted to see
it and I said, "Sure." Now I wish I had taken a camera to
photograph it.

Now I'll add a little bit to this mystery that hasn't been
reported. That C-119 had a history of electrical problems. It
disappeared at night, in hazy weather in which the pilots needed
their instruments because the haze made it difficult, if not
impossible, to see the horizon. If the electrical system failed,
over water, and the pilots lost their orientation with the
horizon, then they might have flown into the ocean by accident.
The real point is that the aircraft did not disappear without a
trace and a plausible explanation exists for its crash.

The Philadelphia Experiment is an outgrowth of the Carlos
Allende hoax of the mid-1950s. He claimed, among other things,
that the US Navy had teleported a ship in 1943 and all sorts of
bad things happened. Allende wrote to Dr. Morris K. Jessup,
providing him with the now infamous Allende Letters that
outlined all this.

I jumped into this investigation in the early 1970s when I lived
in Texas and learned that Sidney Sherby, one of the officers
involved lived not all that far from me. He loaned me a copy of
the "annotated" book and told me a version of the story that
hadn't been reported. In essence, he said the Navy didn't think
much of the letters and that it had not been involved in
research of them. Sherby, and a friend named Hoover had done the
research on their own time with their own money. Not exactly the
myth that has grown up, but plausible.

More to the point, however, was Allende's admission that he had
invented the whole tale. He provided, for Jim Lorenzen of APRO,
a written admission that he had hoaxed the whole thing. Now,
with the main witness saying that he had made it up, it would
seem that the Philadelphia Experiment would disappear from the
UFO scene, but that never happens. When the hoax is admitted, it
is them assumed that "they" got to the witness. They might be
the Air Force, the CIA or even the Men in Black.

So what we see here is that even when the explanations are
found, or the admission of hoax is made, that is not the end of
the mystery. It is reinvented and the troubling facts about it
are ignored because we all know that it's just a big government
conspiracy anyway.

The same can be said about the people in the field. I would have
thought that our explorations of Venus and Mars, as well as the
other planets in our solar system would have ended any
credibility that the contactees had. When no Venusian cities, as
described by George Adamski, and no Martian cities as described
by George van Tassel were found, that would be the end of their
reign. Not so. There are those who still believe that Adamski
and van Tassel were in communication with the space brothers
sent to keep us from destroying ourselves with our newly
discovered atomic weapons.

I confess that I don't understand how anyone can defend the
claims of the contactees in today's world. Billy Meier is just
the latest example, though he has had the good sense to move his
space brothers (and sisters) into another star system. His
evidence is no better than that of Adamski or van Tassel, but
we'll now hear from his defenders that we just haven't looked at
the evidence.

End Part I








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:24:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle


Part II follows

I am surprised that we still debate the legitimacy of Gerald
Anderson. He was caught forging documents. He invented a
telephone bill and was exposed. And even though I spent an hour
explaining the evidence against Anderson to a MUFON member, when
finished, the man wanted to know how I knew the government
hadn't just intercepted his phone bill and altered it to make
Anderson look bad.

Other than the fact the government wouldn't have known to
intercept that particular bill and alter it, the real answer is
that Anderson admitted he had done it. He forged the document,
as he had his high school transcript. Yes, I actually talked to
officials at the school so many years ago and they told me he
had taken Dr. Buskirk's anthropology class. When Anderson began
making noises about suing everyone, I suggested other ways we
knew he was in the class to protect those who had helped. But
the truth is, I knew he had taken the class based on a review of
his high records, and not the doctored version he handed around.

Get it here. It wasn't that I had talked to members of the
anthropology class, though I had. It was that I had worked with
the people at the Albuquerque High School and we learned that
Anderson was in Dr. Buskirk's class. Had he not been threatening
these kind people who helped me, we probably wouldn't have had
to put up with Anderson as long as we did.

After his admission, I would have thought we would eliminated
him from the UFO arena and his story would be reduced to a
footnote about a hoax invented after Unsolved Mysteries. And
with the SEALs exposing him, I would have thought it would be
the end of the Anderson story but he still lingers. Ufology,
like Lake Superior, just never gives up her dead.

Or what about Cliff Stone who emerged chasing Project Moon Dust
and Operation Blue Fly. Very good work on his part, bringing
these to programs to our attention. The letters the Air Force
wrote to New Mexico senator Jeff Bingaman show that often the
right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. But then Cliff
began spinning tales of clandestine meetings, terrifying
telephone calls in the middle of the night for rendezvous in
which government agents pointed guns at him and made all sorts
of demands. I never asked why, if he knew what would happen at
these meeting, he would go. I would have told them to suck eggs,
or ignored the telephone, or called the FBI. Instead, Cliff went
to the meetings, time and again.

And then, suddenly, he moved from just an observer and
researcher into a participant. Name a UFO event in the last
fifty, sixty years, and Cliff was involved. He saw the alien
autopsy film in 1969 by accident, by peaking through windows
while the highly classified briefings were going on. Well, no,
it just doesn't work that way and Cliff knows it. He had begun
to invent his stories and that should render the rest of his
work useless to us because we don't know where the truth ends
and the invention begins. But we'll continue to debate the
legitimacy of his stories because they hint at government
conspiracy and 57 alien species around Earth.

We can look at Don Schmitt. He self-destructed in a tissue of
lies about his occupation, his education, his drug-busting
duties, and half a dozen other things. He admitted, rather
lamely, that he had misrepresented himself and sort of dropped
out of sight. He has reappeared, lecturing about his
investigations, but how can we trust anything he has to say.
More importantly, what he could say that would be of interest to
us, knowing his background?

Tom Carey asked me, about a year and a half ago, how long I was
going to keep this up, meaning reminding all that Don Schmitt
had lied. I said that it would be about seven years from the
last lie, which had Schmitt kept his skirts clean, would be
about now.

I also told Carey that Schmitt had told people I was a
government agent who had been planted on him. I asked Carey how
he would like it if his new partner said the same things about
him. Carey responded that Schmitt had denied ever making such
allegations. Well, I have the proof and that means the statute
of limitations, which is Schmitt's way of ignoring his lies,
will continue until 2008.

Interestingly, Carey claims I'm doing damage to the UFO field by
reminding people that Schmitt has been caught in many different
lies. Keay Davidson suggested that I hadn't been vocal enough
about these lies. I catch it from both sides and my crime was to
believe that my friend was telling me the truth. I somehow catch
the flack for this while Schmitt lectures to various crowds who
couldn't seem to care less that he is not an honest man.

Larry Warren was not at Bentwaters on the two nights of the UFO
activities there. I have seen the video taped interview in which
Warren said that he was in Germany for the first two nights, but
he was there for the third. And I have a copy of the audio tape
discussion with Colonel Halt in which Warren says that he
doesn't know if he was a real participant or if he invented the
whole thing in his head. And in which Halt explains that Warren
has things happening on his mythical third night that happened
on the second.

No, this stuff isn't well known, but I did publish it in Project
Moon Dust (And yes, I have copies available for sale 10 dollars,
with two for shipping and handling to PO Box 1564, Cedar Rapids,
Iowa 52406). In it, I also report that Warren said that he had
taken a voice stress analysis given to him by Larry Fawcett.
Warren has said this on tape, so I called Fawcett and he told me
that he had not given Warren any sort of voice stress analysis.
His response was, "Never."

Say what you will about the Bentwaters case, but Warren wasn't
there and wasn't involved. He admitted that himself, and yet, we
still see him telling his sad tales, now complete with
government drugging and mind manipulation and even a story of
alien abduction.

End Part II








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:26:33 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle


This is Part III, which is the shortest of the pieces.


Should I continue? Wendelle Stevens spent years in jail for child
molestation... but continues to lecture. Oh, yes, the government set
him up... Yeah, sure. The Aztec UFO crash? Doesn't matter what
evidence is offered that it's a hoax, we still have to deal with it. Del
Rio? Clearly not an UFO event and based almost entirely on  half
remembered recollections and Todd Zechel's inventive reporting. J.
Bond Johnson? His memories of what happened in General Ramey's
office are so confused that even he can't keep them straight. This
week's tale is replaced by next week's. Derrel Sims the CIA man. The
CIA has never recruited in the fashion that Sims claims and he has no
documentation to prove his claims. He who shall remain nameless
lost his license because he was implanting his belief structure on his
clients and not because of government conspiracy. Edith Fiore lost
her license and in one case, when a client couldn't remember enough
material while under hypnosis, was told, "Well, make it up."

So what do we do? Let's picket. (I figured if I'm going to offend some
people, I might as well offend them all). That worked so well for
Operation Right to Know. No, let's all sign a petition. That worked
so well for the Roswell Initiative. Thirty thousand signatures and I
think that most of the petitions went undelivered. Those that were
contained a cover letter that shot down the whole thing. "I don't believe
this anymore, but I have these petitions and I think we're being visited
so let us know."

The real solution is very simple to state and nearly impossible to
implement. First we clean our own house. We stop listening to those
who have lied, who have hoaxed, and those who had misrepresented.
We start applying some strict standards to our investigations and hold
everyone to those standards. We begin to peer review, and I would
think that a representative from CUFOS, FUFOR and MUFON would
be the place to begin (probably with some at large members drawn
from the experienced base of UFO research). I would think support
for the Journal of UFO Studies and the Journal of Scientific Exploration
would be helpful. I would think that if we stop complaining about the
lack of science exhibited by CSICOP and start using scientific methodology
we would be miles ahead.

Yes, I have seen the idea for peer review come and go, but I think it
is now time to push for this idea. I think that we have bumped into
the walls, tripped over the truth, and fallen out the windows long
enough. Now we must decide if we are going to be serious about this
or if we're going to allow the status quo go for another 50 years.

KRandle








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                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:14:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:46:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:07:17 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >Alfred's Odd Observation #18 (Monday -- June 10, 2002)

 >Like I said, ladies and gentlebunkies, just rock the freaking
 >head back! Visibility was about 80% of "as good as it gets"
 >around here this Monday morning

<snip>

 >Three objects were observed this morning between 03:15 and 03:45
 >Central, flying nearly one right after the other. All were the
 >same pale peach color. All maintained a slow steady one degree
 >every five seconds rate. All were observable over about 45
 >degrees of arc along their different tracks. The first flew
 >north. The second flew south. The third flew a couple of degrees
 >to the left of due east and was the oddest of the three.

 >The first two shared a magnitude of about zero (so, dimmer than
 >Sirius) and maintained that bright component throughout their
 >observation. The third slowly increased its brilliance to as
 >bright as Jupiter (as seen the night before) and then abruptly
dimmed to about magnitude three, barely visible and requiring
 >off center viewing to keep it in sight.

 >I checked with NASA via J-PASS for a forecast of traffic that
'>should' be seen for the time period concerned (they make it
 >_so_ easy), and was not surprised to discover no record of it...

 >...All in all a vindication of a growing suspicion that things
 >are not as they appear, good friends and gentlebunkies...

<snip>

 >At the end now, with no snippage on my part, that's enough. I
 >continue to watch our skies. Rock your own head back, when you
 >can, good reader. They continue to fly despite the carping,
 >complaining, and confusion that goes on down here. Read on.

Mr. Lehmberg:

Exactly which satellites did you request J-Track predictions
for? Going to their website, I find the following, from the
JTrack FAQ:

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/JTrack/FAQ.html

"Where is my favorite satellite?

There are so many orbiting things that we had to choose a few to
keep the list shorter.  If you have one that is missing, just
ask and we will add it as time permits.

I saw something on some day, what was it?

This is truly too difficult a task to expend resources to
determine. If you MUST know, you can find historical ephemeris
data on the internet for the space objects and search, but most
likely you will never be sure what it really was unless you
preplan the viewing.

 >From the J-Track Help page:

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/JTrack/help.html

At startup, J-Track only loads the default satellites. You can
expand the list of satellites to choose from by clicking on the
"Add More" button.

Adding a Satellite - select a category of satellites, then
select the satellites you wish to add to the tracking display.
When they are selected click the "Add" button. You can only
track 10 satellites."

The J-Track webset has a database of only 500 satellites. The
objects you saw certainly sound like satellites. The third one
sounds like it might have been an iridium "flaring", or possibly
a tumbling rocket. Many of the brighter (because they are larger
and lower) satellites visible to the unaided eye are actually
booster rockets in lock orbits.

So, what was your list, and did it include boosters?

Keep looking up but don't get a stiff neck.

Bob Young


"Nyuk, Nyuk ...Woop, Woop, Woop, Woop"
   Curley Howard, "Men in Black", 1934.







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                 Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:48:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:50:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Hall


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: <tv@lorencoleman.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >>Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >>HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >>World Premiere

 >>History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >>Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >>Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >>The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >>files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >>government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >>boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >>unidentified metal object

 >Huh!? An "unidentified metal object" from the Nat'l Archives?

 >I highly doubt the History Channel's treatment is going to blow
 >any of us away, but at the same time I'd like to think they
 >would steer clear of the 'artifact'/piece of metal presented
 >as ET in '97.

 >So is this something new?  I'm curious.


Mac,

Through the intervention of the French TV crew working on the
documentary that has since aired in Europe, I was allowed access
to the 'stacks' at the National Archives, College Park,
including drawers with many, many alleged 'artifacts'. As they
filmed me, I pulled out one drawer after another and found such
things as remnants of flares, slag, pieces of obviously earthly
metal, balloon fragments, etc., being carefuly preserved for
posterity. I will watch this program with interest, but won't
hold my breath. The amount of trash being preserved is mind-
boggling. At taxpayer expense, I might add.


  - Dick







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                 Re: oswell: Final Declassification - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:09:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:52:04 -0400
Subject: Re: oswell: Final Declassification - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:10:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification


 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: <tv@lorencoleman.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >>Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >>HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >>World Premiere

 >>History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >>Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >>Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >>The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >>files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >>government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >>boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >>unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
 >>site with scholars from the University of New Mexico.

 >>Airs Thursday, June 13 at 8pm EDT / 7pm CDT

 >>http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/index.html

 >Now, how is it that the General Accounting Office never found
 >these records and came up empty-handed?

Because these were created after 1994 or they were wholly
irrelevant such as the court martial record (that was in one of
the boxes by itself). I have no idea why McAndrew requested it
because it was dated 1957... maybe he just grabbed everything
that said Roswell.


KRandle








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                Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:17:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:53:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell: Final Declassification - Randle


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:42:30 -0700
 >Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification


 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:47:48 -0400
 >>Subject: Roswell: Final Declassification

 >>HISTORY CHANNEL USA

 >>World Premiere

 >>History Undercover: Roswell: Final Declassification:

 >>Ever since a strange object fell from the sky near Roswell, New
 >>Mexico, in 1947, controversy has brewed over what it really was.
 >>The National Archive is about to declassify the last remaining
 >>files on the Roswell incident, releasing 11 boxes from a
 >>government vault. Check out the contents of these controversial
 >>boxes-which contain film. Photos, audio recordings, and an
 >>unidentified metal object, and take a tour to the Roswell crash
 >>site with scholars from the University of New Mexico.

 >The National Archives has denied for the last 20 years having
 >anything on Roswell, classified or unclassified.  Remember,
 >e.g., when Congressmen Schiff got sent there by the Air Force in
 >1994?  The Archives told him they didn't have anything, and,
 >furthermore, the Air Force knew it.  That's when Schiff felt he
 >was getting the runaround.

David, List, All -

But, at that time, NARA didn't have it. These boxes were not
there and the documentation in them was created after Schiff
began his investigation. Further, NARA didn't even know they had
the stuff until I told them. I got a letter from Richard Boylan
(no, not he shall remain nameless but a poor sap with the same
name) that the documentation was not at NARA. I sent copies of
the letter I had gotten from Maxwell Air Force Base (the Air
Force Archives) showing that the stuff had been shipped to
them... in 2001. I've been through the boxes and know that the
stuff, with few exceptions, is no older than 1995.

 >So now, all of a sudden, they have something?  11 boxes of
 >classified material no less.

Actually, I don't think any of it was classified... with the
exception of the JAG court martial and that was to protect the
innocent...


KRandle







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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:19:52 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:56:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:21:58 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 05:13:27 -0400
 >>Subject: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>TO: Chief, Criminal Section - Civil Rights Division
 >>U. S. Department of Justice
 >>P. O. Box 66018
 >>Washington, DC 20035-6018

 >>FROM: Larry W. Bryant
 >>3518 Martha Custis Drive
 >>Alexandria, VA 22302

 >>SUBJECT: Request for Your Investigative and Remedial Intervention

 >>DATE: June 8, 2002

 >>According to the enclosed F.B.I. memorandum of Jan. 18, 1967, a
 >>citizen of Chesapeake, Va., experienced an episode of UFO-E.T.
 >>abduction -- complete with such classic elements as the
 >>description of his alien abductors and the ensuing period of
 >>"missing time."

 ><snip>

 >>In the meantime, as further background on the scope and depth of
 >>this civil-rights-depriving invasion/terrorism, I refer you to
 >>the book "Taken: Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda," an
 >>anthology of first-person accounts compiled by the late Karla
 >>Turner (who includes her own family's experience). This book has
 >>inspired a Cable-TV mini-series, by the same title, produced by
 >>Steven Spielberg for airing in December 2002.

 >>Thank you for helping coordinate this long-overdue intervention
 >>into such an officially neglected area of criminality.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Larry,

 >Kudos on an excellent letter and a brilliant idea. It's about time.
 >Saturday night on SDI one of the callers raised the question of
 >the US government's liabilities should they ever admit to having
 >had full knowledge of the UFO phenomenon all along.

 >I commented that one of the first things that would happen would
 >be a flurry of litigation. Not just from families like the
 >Mantell's who actually lost a loved one and were never told the
 >truth, but from each and every citizen they impotently _allowed_
 >to be repeatedly abducted and traumatized.

 >
 >Well written Larry. Great idea. Good work.


Hi John,

You wrote:

"Not just from families like the Mantell's who actually lost a
loved one and were never told the  truth,..."

You got my juices flowing. Could you elaborate on this
statement. Did I miss something about the Mantell case? I
thought I'd covered it thoroughly.


Best,

Don








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:32:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:59:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:21:58 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 05:13:27 -0400
 >>Subject: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention


<snip>

Good Afternoon, All -

John Velez commented:

 >I commented that one of the first things that would happen would
 >be a flurry of litigation. Not just from families like the
 >Mantell's who actually lost a loved one and were never told the
 >truth, but from each and every citizen they impotently _allowed_
 >to be repeatedly abducted and traumatized.

I think that it's pretty clear that Mantell's family was told
the truth but declined to believe it. Yes, the Air Force handled
it poorly, tossing out explanations faster than Don Schmitt. In
the final analysis, and I think most will agree, Mantell was
killed chasing a skyhook balloon.

His family has received the file. I know because I sent it to
them and it had been available for more than twenty years. Yes,
the Air Force dropped the public relations ball here too, but
they're very good at that.

The thing we must remember is that aircraft accident
investigations are classified and for good reason. It promotes
the free flow of information. Yes, that reads like a
contradiction, but the reason is this. Officers afraid that
their commanders will read what they said during the
investigation of an accident will say what they believe the
commander would like to hear rather than provide solid and
untainted information. If they know that the commander will not
see the testimony, only be given the investigation's conclusions
about cause, they are more likely to tell everything they know.

It should also be noted here that the cause of this crash was
pilot error. Yeah, I hate that conclusion because, as a former
military pilot, it seemed that they blamed everything on pilot
error especially when the pilot was not around to defend
himself. In this case, however, Mantell climbed above 12,000
feet with no oxygen equipment in violation of regulations. In
fact, he pushed to over 20,000 feet and blacked out. He never
regained consciousness as his F-51 flew into the ground.

Which is not to say that Mantell was a bad pilot. Clearly, given
his record during WW II (he received the DFC during the invasion
of Normandy) he was a good pilot who made a single mistake. The
UFO has been identified and the cause of the crash was not
extraterrestrial.


KRandle








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                       Re: Year Of The UFO - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:26:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:01:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Year Of The UFO - Maccabee


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:18:16 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Year Of The UFO


 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:50:59 -0400
 >>Subject: Year Of The UFO

<snip>

 >>After all, in 3 short months (June, July and August) the Air
 >>Force collected about 1000 sighting reports. Why wasn't this
 >>sufficient to convince everyone that something strange was going
 >>on?

 >>We now know that some at the upper levels of the Air Force were
 >>seriously considering the (gulp!) Interplanetary Hypothesis!!

 >>So why did General Samford slam the lid down when he could have
 >>done the opposite?

 >>Why are we stuck in the "tradition" that there is nothing to UFO
 >>sightings?

 >>Read http://brumac.8k.com/1952YEAROFUFO/1952YEAROFUFO.html

 >Great article, excellent info. Everyone should read it, not just
 >the newbies. And it all leaves me amazed at the fact that there
 >are _still_ UFO skeptics in the world. When taken as a whole the
 >evidence is overwhelming for an ET presence here on Earth.

Thanks for the comment. I hope this gets around.

Also to the press (so if you have any newspaper/radio/TV
contacts who want to do a retrospective on 50 years ago, let
him/her know about the article or give 'em my email address:

brumac@compuserve.com








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               EW: Amazing Mentalist's UFO Prediction (Humor)

From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior_electricwarrior_com@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:30:17 -0400
Subject: EW: Amazing Mentalist's UFO Prediction (Humor)



From: The Electric Warrior (Kurt Jonach)

--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Microcultures June 11, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
AMAZING MENTALIST'S UFO PREDICTION
microcultures

(The Electric Warrior) - Suppose I'm The Amazing So-And-So, and
I need a good publicity stunt toward the end of a fairly
successful entertainment career?

[Yeah, OK, get on with it.]

Lot's of people are interested in UFOs and extraterrestrials,
so, it'd be great to be involved with the Biggest Ever Sighting
in History, wouldn't it? I've never been particularly impressed
with the phenomenon, and those UFO guys are easy to pick on.

[Biggest ever? That's a lot of people!]

Not if you're in the desert. You don't normally get large groups
of people in the desert. So it's, Biggest Ever Sighting in
History -- In the Desert.

[OK, how do you get people into the desert?]

You go to Las Vegas, of course. You get off the stage, walk out
onto an empty lot, and you're in the desert.

[How do you get a crowd? You're not even booked into Las Vegas
any time in the foreseeable future.]

Right, right. I'm not even scheduled. Las Vegas is a great town
for an entertainer with name recognition. There are plenty of
places for people to have a good time. I probably can't get
booked into any of the top flight venues, but if I can pretty
much guarantee a sizeable crowd, my chances are good. In fact,
that scenario is practically a standing invitation. Plus, Vegas
is close to Area 51, and all those UFO guys know it.

[Area 51, that's right. All those people out in the desert
seeing things. How do you get biggest ever sighting in history?
Just off the top of my head, what about all those stories from
the Bible?]

Wait a minute. That's a lot of history. Plus, the way I heard
it, those weren't "sightings", they were "acts of God". No, I'm
promoting a UFO sighting, a very important distinction. The word
UFO wasn't even coined until the late 1940's, so there isn't a
lot of history.

[Right, you're going to convince people in Las Vegas to see
alien flying saucers.]

You're not paying attention. U-F-O means Unidentified Flying
Object. All they have to "see" is something they can't explain,
up in the sky, and it's a UFO. So its, Biggest Ever UFO Sighting
in the Desert, and we can forget about history.

[How do you get people to show up?]

You make it exciting. You offer a $50,000 guarantee -- that's a
lot of money -- and then you offer it to charity. People like to
get behind a good cause. And if I cast the event as a
prediction, people who don't understand what I do will naturally
assume it's somehow paranormal or psychic. Those are some heavy
duty vibes: UFOs, aliens, flying saucers, psychic prediction,
plus a name-brand entertainer. They'll show up, all right.

[Wait a minute, you said no aliens or flying saucers!]

I hype the event on every call-in radio talk-show that will have
me, and all I have to do is be very careful about using the word
UFO. If people want to throw in all that other stuff, that's
fine with me. Get it on the Internet. I'll get plenty of free
publicity, and I'll get booked into Las Vegas, too. Just wait
and see.

[Where do you get the money? You told me up front, times are
hard.]

I don't need a dime. Three, maybe four people get hysterical,
see something weird, and then talk about it. I'm off the hook.

[Yes, but that's very cynical. It could damage your career.]

Those UFO guys can't take a joke, can they? Well,
I've got a Social Agenda. I tell people I did it
to show how easy it is to get fooled.

[Hmmm, experienced mentalist, a few people out in Las Vegas
seeing weird things in the sky, plus a very strict historical
interpretation of the term UFO. Come to think of it, that
doesn't sound very hard to pull off. But it certainly does sound
suspicious. Maybe even dishonest.]

What are you talking about, pal? I'm The Amazing So-And-So, and
That's Entertainment!

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 11, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
Do you like this article? The URL address for this
content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0044.htm

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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                   BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:23:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:34:25 -0400
Subject: BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1363000/1363848.stm

Go to the page to see photo!

Stig

***


UK

Friday, 1 June, 2001, 16:27 GMT 17:27 UK

**

'UFO video' goes to Hollywood

*

A Derbyshire housewife has sold what she says is a video of a
flying saucer to a Hollywood producer.

Sharon Rowlands, 44, from the village of Bonsall, in the Peak
District, has reportedly been paid =A320,000 for the footage.

And officials at NASA are said to have asked to examine the
tape, because they believe it shows the same type of craft once
spotted by the space agency's own cameras during a space shuttle
mission.

Ms Rowlands said she took the film with a camcorder after
hearing an eerie noise outside her home one evening in October
last year.

She says she filmed the object while it hovered in the sky about
two miles away.

"It resembled a giant disc with a bite taken out of the bottom,"
she told reporters.

"As it hovered over the woods, it seemed to expand and then get
smaller again.

"We could see it pulsing as if it started up and then it just
went it came really close at one stage and I thought it was
going to land in the field.

"You can hear me on the video say "Wow!"


Hovering in sky


The video shows what appears to be a large craft that emits red,
yellow, orange and blue lights and has a dark circle in its
centre.

It hovers in the sky before moving to the right and emitting
pulses of light from its left-hand side.

It then flips over, showing two deep scarlet lights, and
disappears in a red flash.

So certain was Ms Rowlands of the film's value, that she had
locked it in a Nottingham bank vault before sending it to
America.


UFO capital


Ms Rowlands' is just one of many alleged sightings of strange
objects in the sky over Bonsall in the last few months.

One woman reported seeing a "ball of fire" in the skies, another
"two big, bright lights".

A man out walking his dog witnessed a "pink glow, vertically
shaped like a shoe box".

The Meteorological Office said there were no unusual weather
conditions that might have explained Ms Rowland's sighting.

Others believe military aircraft could explain some of the
sightings.

**

See also:

29 May 01 | Sci/Tech
Red Planet 'to spark UFO sightings'

14 Nov 00 | Scotland
First contact for UFO mecca?


Internet links:

International UFO and Research Centre


The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet
sites

=A9 MMII








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

From: Larry Warren? <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:12:16 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:39:35 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle


[Non-Subscriber Post]

I just had to respond to mr randles regular attacks
on my chariter on this list.
The latest, is the one in wich he hangs himself but
good.
Kevin randle states that I was in germany on the two
nights of ufo activity at Bentwaters.
By now, kevin should know that it was three nights of
ufo activity on and near our airbase, Halt himself
backs this up, and so the mythical third night in fact
is reality, and i was indeed involved as my authentic
military records prove, along with the supporting
testamoney of others who place me on site.
As for my being in west germany during the first two
nights, kevin is correct.The audio tape kevin refers
to as discussions with Halt, are in fact the audio
tapes that Peter Robbins and myself provided to Halt
after we had recorded our interaction in washington
D.C. in 1992 the tapes were recorded with halts
permition and are transcribed in full in our book Left
at east gate. kevins selective edit of my conversation
with halt is in my oppinion slander, however it is
also a good measure of how this guy opperates.Folks
for the record, i have never been in dought concerning
what i saw in that forrest and on caple green. I do
question some of the aftermath, and state so to Halt
on the tape, kevins attempt to reword and invent
damaging text and then attribute it to me wont fly,
and myself or my co author will be happy to let any
one have a listen, or better yet ,read the undoctored
transcripts in our book, you will then wonder what
tapes kevin is refering too ?.AS for my stating that
larry fauctt gave me a VSA, i never did, thus another
low life tactic by kevin. What i do state and infact
publish in my book left at east gate is this, on three
occasions in the early 1980s fauctt
tape recorded my testamony, after the third time iwas
fed up and asked him why he felt it nessesary, fauctt
told me that the CT state police had preformed a VSA
on the first two, and i passed, and he needed another
to continue the work. end of story, did he or did he
not ive no idea but just the same its what he told me.
Kevin felt it importaint to slander and distort other
aspects of my life , with his sad tales, abduction and
brainwashing comments, Never have i claimed to have
been abducted,although i do belive it happens, clearly
kevin does not, fine, infact he has every right not to
belive larry warren, but he does not have the right to
distort and alter peoples words to simply serve his
own needs, and i hope this is not the norm on this
list aswell,wittnesses deserve to have a bit more
respect,
if the person is crap get rid of them, but after
twenty years in this circus i know that my record of
service
and my account is sound and would stand up in any
court of law , and thats the fact jack!
kevin should you ever want to debate my role in the
case , in person, l for one would enjoy it, Bruni is
afraid to, you slander me so often , and yet you never
made a peep the last time we met, strange, lets have a
go! but please, not on the internet,as im a face to
face sort of guy. you cheeky monkey, cheers Larry
Warren







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                 International UFO Museum Opens In Istanbul

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:25:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:41:49 -0400
Subject: International UFO Museum Opens In Istanbul


Source: Turkish Daily News

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/search/oop/qfullhit.htw?CiWebHitsFile=3D%2Fo=
ld%5Feditions%2F06%5F06%5F02%2Ffeature%2Ehtm&CiRestriction=3DUFO&CiBeginHili=
te=3D%3Cstrong+class%3DHit%3E&CiEndHilite=3D%3C%2Fstrong%3E&CiUserParam3=3D/=
search/Q_tdn.asp&CiHiliteType=3DFull

URLs should be shorter than this one!

Stig

***

Turkish Daily News Online

6 June 2002

**

International UFO museum opens in Istanbul

*

The "International UFO Museum of Middle and Eastern Europe, the
Balkans and the Middle-East," the first of its kind, opened in
Istanbul on January 18.

The museum is located right in the center of Istanbul, the
gateway between Asia and Europe. The aim of the project is to
inform Turkish citizens, and the millions of tourists who visit
Istanbul every year, about the UFO phenomenon. The museum caters
to people from all over the world, from ages seven to 70,
presenting them proof of UFO and extraterrestrial (ET)
phenomenon with various data, both in English and in Turkish.
The project has been supported by data and archival material
from hundreds of associations and institutions worldwide
conducting scientific research on this subject. The UFO museum
has three sections: the museum and exhibition section; the
library; and the video-VCD-DVD viewing room and meeting room.


Museum and Exhibition Section


In this section, hundreds of UFO incidents are documented and a
wide range of information about UFOs and ETs is exhibited
through photographs, pictures, illustrations and written
documents/texts, both in Turkish and English.

The display categories include: The UFO Chronicle of the World
and worldwide sighting map; information and animations on
archaeological ruins and traces, and epigraphs/inscriptions/
tablets; ancient cultures and their connections to ETs; Crop
Circles; Area 51 and other secret bases; Abductions; Animal
Mutilations; top secret official documents; NASA cover-ups;
MARS; research and analysis reports from important institutions
and universities; types of aliens and UFOs; Roswell; the Aztec,
Varginha and other incidents; national and international
newspaper-magazine articles and periodical archives; and
worldwide UFO reports and related issues.


Library


Those who wish to get information or conduct research on UFOs,
extraterrestrial life and the universe, can take advantage of
the library, which contains over 1,000 books and magazines, both
in English and Turkish. Reading tables are also available.


Video-VCD-DVD Viewing Room and Meeting Room


Visitors have the opportunity to watch various related
documentaries and films, both in English and Turkish. There will
also be periodical conferences and seminars on UFOs and related
issues, given by national and international guest speakers.

The museum is located at Buyukparmakkapi Sok. No.14, Kat1-2,
Beyoglu.

Tel: (0212) 252 86 46.

For detailed information visit http://www.siriusufo.org
(available by the end of June).

**

=A9 Turkish Daily News








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:14:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:53:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Deardorff


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:48:52 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part I

 >I confess that I don't understand how anyone can defend the
 >claims of the contactees in today's world. Billy Meier is just
 >the latest example, though he has had the good sense to move his
 >space brothers (and sisters) into another star system. His
 >evidence is no better than that of Adamski or van Tassel, but
 >we'll now hear from his defenders that we just haven't looked at
 >the evidence.

Thanks for the introduction, Kevin. I do hate to have to
classify you as one who accepts the false claims of Korff and
others about Mr. Meier's experiences. And I would hope that you
don't fall in the same category that Stanton often speaks of who
say, "Don't bother me with the evidence, my mind's made up."


The following evidence supporting Meier's experiences is all
unrefuted and stands firm.

A.1. Eye witness testimony of the ET, Asket, with Meier in
Mehrauli, India, 1964, and of her UFOs: Phobal Cheng, who, until
retirement recently, worked with the Cambodian embassy in the
U.N.; video tape of her testimony available in, "The Reopening
of the Billy Meier Case," Feb. 23, 1999, from the International
UFO Congress. Summary given at:

http://www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm#pc

Her grandfather, who headed the ashram there, and her brother,
were also eye witnesses. Meier has about 10 B&W photos that
still survive of those UFOs (displayed in Wendelle Stevens'
books).

A.2. Daylight sighting of "beamship" craft on 28 June, 1976
while waiting for Meier to return from a contact, by Hans
Schutzbach, Amata Stetter, Meier's wife and three children.
Drawing of the craft made afterwards by Meier's oldest boy.
Testimony is on video tape made in 1979. Summary at:

http://www.tjresearch.info/witnessa.htm#Atlantis

Daytime sighting with Billy in 1982 by Silvano Lehman. See

http://www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm

A.3. Nighttime UFO displays, while waiting in the hills ESE of
Zurich for Meier to return from a contact, witnessed by: Jacob
Bertschinger, 14 March 1976; by Hans Schutzbach & Jacob
Bertschinger, 27-28 March 1976; by M. Flammer, Margrit Rufer,
Olga Walder, Amata Stetter, Hans Schutzbach & Jacob
Bertschinger, on 3-4 April, 1976; Wolfgang Witzer (with Mr.
Fuchs, Hans & Conrad Schutzbach, J. Bertschinger and Mr.
Altensperger) on 7-8 June 1976; Guido Moosbrugger (with Conrad
Schutzbach and Mss. Stetter, Flammer and Walder) on 12 June
1976. Testimonies at

http://www.tjresearch.info/witnessa.htm

Various nighttime UFO sightings with Billy, by Eva Bieri; and
dusk sighting with Billy by Brunhilde Koye on 8 April 1983; more
nighttime sightings by Guido Moosbrugger; see

http://www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm

A.4. Witness to a telepathic response by Meier from ET in craft
overhead, spotted by Meier & witnesses only after he stopped the
car and they got out and saw the moving red light in the night
sky. See  'witnessa.htm' URL above.

A.5. Witnesses to Meier suddenly appearing out of 'nowhere'
after he had gone out on a contact (i.e. 'beamed' back): Jacob
Bertschinger, 7 Feb. 1977; Engelbert W=E4chter, Jr. (along with
Bernadette Brand, Jacob Bertschinger, and Engelbert W=E4chter,
Sr.), 20 February 1977, Re Contact #75; Englebert Waechter; see
testimony in 'witnessa.htm' and 'witness.htm' URLs above.

A.6. Witnesses to Meier suddenly not being present ('beamed
up'), while later returning from a contact: Wendelle Stevens (in
the video "Contact"), and in interview of Mrs. Meier in 1979
(see A.2. above).

A.7. Witnesses and photos of 'crop-circle' landing traces
visited the day after (or day of) quite a few of Meier's
contacts, 1976-78; too many to list here.


Photo evidence from the Meier contactee case. 35mm color
stills.

B.1. The Fuchsbuel-Hofhalden photo series of 9 July 1975, 11
surviving photos. Craft posed on various sides of a mature
evergreen tree. Forestry experts agree the tree was mature, and
thus not a 'baby' tree or small potted tree. See

http://www.tjresearch.info/ufology#photos7

and in greater depth in:

http://www.tjresearch.info/moretree.htm

Tree trunk exhibits knurs where limbs had been pruned off.
Debunking claims by Korff on this case thoroughly refuted.

B.2. Meier's Bachtelhornli-Unterbachtel series of 8 March 1976,
62 photos survive. Underhanded attempt to discredit one of them
exposed. See

http://www.tjresearch.info/bachtel.htm#bpic200

B.3. The Schmarbuel-Maiwinkle incident between the UFO and the
mirage-jet aircraft of 14 April 1976. 14 surviving photos, 10
showing UFO and jet in same frame. The pilot of the mirage jet
was finally identified by Zurich ufologist Erwin Muerner. Sound
track of event captured on tape and thoroughly analyzed. See

http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm#mirage

B.4. The Hasenbol-Fischenthal photos of 29 March, 1976. 33
photos survive. Debunking attempts by Korff discredited in:

http://www.tjresearch.info/hasenbol.htm .

B.5. The many hundred photos Meier took on his 5-day space trip
may need mention. He was informed by his ET contactor, Ptaah, in
the late 1990s that some of the film had been tampered with and
altered before Meier picked up the developed photos. Meier had
given those rolls of exposed film to a fellow who said he could
get a cheaper rate on getting them processed. As a result, Meier
since then has disavowed the authenticity of those photos.
Whether Meier was being told the truth by Ptaah on that, I don't
know, but there's probably no need to discuss those particular
photos if Meier himself doesn't now trust their genuineness.


Evidence from the 8mm movie-film footage.

C.1. The craft circling above the tree top on 18 March, 1975.
Its maneuvers resembled those of a model UFO at the end of a
string, except that the tree top did once suddenly swerve over
very briefly just after the UFO passed above it. Analyzed by
Bruce Maccabee at:

http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html

who concluded that if it were a model, it would have been about
a foot in diameter, circling above a tree about 3-ft in height,
at the end of a string 12-16 ft in length. He concluded the tree
would then have been some 55 ft away from the camera.

At

http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm#macpend

the problems with the hoax hypothesis are pointed out. (a) Some
four hoaxers would need to have been involved, to control a
model's motion when at the end of a string from a pole some 25ft
long. (b) With a 3-ft tree 55ft away, the lower portion of the
farmhouse in the distance would not be visible through and
underneath the canopy of the 3-ft tree, even if the camera had
been mounted close to the ground. (It is visible in the film.)
Instead, the previous year's dead meadow grass and/or clumps of
ground if it had been plowed, would have obscured any such view.
(c) Three hoaxers manipulating 3 lines connected to a model as
it repeatedly swung back & forth and around a tree top would not
be able to keep their lines from getting all snarled up in the
tree.

Serious consideration needs to be given to the evidence that
UFO-aliens have a strategy of dealing with us that includes
deception at times, such that the UFO coverup will not be
unraveled before they feel it is time. It is simple enough for
them to do this, through many other means than just UFO
maneuvers, so as to allow ufologists who cannot accept the
reality of it all to latch onto the deceptions while ignoring
the other evidence and witness testimony.

Maccabee's concluding advice, as to whether or not a model was
used: 'You be the judge.' That's good advice.

C.2. The Bachtelhornli-Unterbachtel movie footage of 8 March
1976.  At

http://www.tjresearch.htm/bachtel.htm

one may (a) view the movie frame, along with preceding &
subsequent frames, at which the craft jumped suddenly from one
location to another. In one frame, it is visible in both
locations at once. Background clouds allow one to estimate the
maximum amount of time that could have elapsed between the
frames, if two models had been employed along with stopping the
film and later cutting and splicing it. About 15 seconds,
probably insufficient. (b) The length of a pole and string that
would have been needed to dangle a model that doesn't oscillate
is estimated and shown to contradict the hoax hypthesis. (c) At
one point the UFO becomes partially eclipsed behind the brow of
the hill in the distance.

C.3. Some five other of Meier's movie-film segments deserve
discussion if space permitted. In one of these, where rapid
oscillatory movements of the craft would sometimes suddenly
cease, the craft emitted a strong light beam of some sort. See:

http://www.tjresearch.info/hasenbol.htm#super8

or scroll 2/3 of way down.


These are only the tip of the iceberg, of course. Much more of
the data, presented by the initial investigators, which I
reference, also needs careful attention.

However, most of my website is devoted to analysis of the Talmud
Jmmanuel document that Billy Meier and another discovered in
1963. It is of more lasting importance than his UFO photos and
films, as it is shown to have been the source for the first
gospel of the New Testament.

Jim Deardorff








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                          Secrecy News -- 06/11/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:55:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:57:09 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/11/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 50
June 11, 2002


**      JUDICIAL REVIEW OF ACCESS DETERMINATIONS UPHELD
**      A CRITICAL HISTORY OF THE FBI
**      RESEARCHING NATIONAL SECURITY RECORDS
**      SECRECY IN THE NEWS


JUDICIAL REVIEW OF ACCESS DETERMINATIONS UPHELD

A federal court yesterday emphatically rejected a Bush
Administration claim that the executive branch has the exclusive
right to determine who may have access to classified information
and that such determinations are not subject to judicial review.

"The implications of the arguments put forth by the government
in this case are stunning," wrote Judge Emmet G. Sullivan, in
rebuffing the Administration's position.

"The government argues here that any and all conflicts between
national security interests and individual constitutional rights
can not be resolved by the... courts because the Constitution
commits the protection of national security to the Executive
Branch....."

But that "is not and has never been the law," the Judge found.

"If this were the law, the Pentagon Papers case... was wrongly
decided [and] the Freedom of Information Act... would be
unconstitutional," Judge Sullivan wrote.

The question of judicial authority arose in the course of a
dispute over the pre-publication review of a manuscript on the
Chinese nuclear weapons program written by former Los Alamos
official Danny B. Stillman, who has sought official approval to
publish his manuscript for years now.  In the latest twist, the
government opposed granting access to classified portions of the
manuscript to Stillman's attorney, Mark S. Zaid.

"This Court will not allow the government to cloak its
violations of plaintiff's First Amendment rights in a blanket of
national security," the Judge wrote.

Judge Sullivan ordered the government to proceed expeditiously
to conduct the background investigation needed to approve Mr.
Zaid's clearance for access to contested portions of the
Stillman manuscript.

See Judge Sullivan's 106 page memorandum opinion here:

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/01-1342.pdf

See also "Judge Upholds Classified Info Review" by Leslie Miller
of the Associated Press:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28206-2002Jun10.html


A CRITICAL HISTORY OF THE FBI

"FBI officials intensively investigated the Federation of
American Scientists" in the late 1940s and 1950s, recalls Athan
Theoharis in "Chasing Spies," his new critical history of the
FBI.

"FBI agents carefully monitored the public activities of FAS
leaders and their various efforts to influence public policy,
having been ordered to determine their 'political orientation,'
possible links to Communists or suspected Communists, and
'agitation and pressure activities aimed at influencing the
dissemination of technical and other information' [concerning
nuclear policy]," Theoharis notes.

As the standards governing FBI investigations are being
modified, the Bureau's record is of more than historical
interest.  While the FBI should not be unduly burdened by its
past excesses as it works today to combat terrorist threats to
the nation, neither should those excesses be altogether
forgotten.

Chapter One of "Chasing Spies: How the FBI Failed in
Counterintelligence But Promoted the Politics of McCarthyism in
the Cold War Years" by Athan Theoharis is now posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/theoharis.htm

See also:

http://www.ivanrdee.com/spTheoharis_Chasing.html


RESEARCHING NATIONAL SECURITY RECORDS

Navigating through the nation's archives and records
repositories in search of particular documents can be a daunting
and discouraging task.

Over the past decade, James E. David of the National Air and
Space Museum has been to the bowels of U.S. archival system and
back, and now he has described what he has learned.

His new reference book, entitled "Conducting Post-World War II
National Security Research in Executive Branch Records: A
Comprehensive Guide," begins with a brief introduction to
records retention and declassification policy.  It then provides
a detailed 200 page itemization of what kinds of national
security records are located where, along with notations on
their status and availability.

Though overpriced at $85, the book has the potential to save
serious researchers considerable time in finding what they are
looking for, and to alert others to the existence of records
they might never have known about.  See:

http://www.greenwood.com/books/BookDetail.asp?sku=GR1986


SECRECY IN THE NEWS

The Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency has adopted a new
classification policy that will significantly reduce the
availability of public information about the controversial
missile defense test program, as reported by Defense Daily and
the Los Angeles Times.  See "Why the Secrecy Shield?" by Philip
E. Coyle III in the June 11 Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28739-2002Jun10.html

The impact of new security regulations on the conduct of
scientific research is discussed in "Staying One Step Ahead of
Government Censors" by Peg Brickley in the June 10 issue of The
Scientist here (free registration required):

http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2002/jun/prof_020610.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Jun > Jun 12

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:31:55 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:53:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:32:35 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I think that it's pretty clear that Mantell's family was told
 >the truth but declined to believe it. Yes, the Air Force handled
 >it poorly, tossing out explanations faster than Don Schmitt. In
 >the final analysis, and I think most will agree, Mantell was
 >killed chasing a skyhook balloon.


Kevin, List,

Mantell may have been killed chasing said balloon, I don't know.
I did, however, talk to a man who was on the ground at the
airfield at the time, and he said the object was definitely not
a balloon but a saucer (disc).

I also recall seeing a UFO documentary on TV ten years or so
ago, where the men in the control tower said the same thing. Go
figure.


Regards,

-Chaz






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                   Aleksandr Plaksin's Soviet UFO Research

From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:54:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:04:52 -0400
Subject: Aleksandr Plaksin's Soviet UFO Research


Nick Subbotin sent me a Russian-language article through the
RUFORS mailing List. It was published in Komsomol'skaya Prvada
newspaper on 5-31-02.

Aleksandr Plaksin is a military geophysicist. He is an
interesting individual in Soviet UFO history; he played a
prominent role in the secret research conducted by the Soviet
military.

The new book about Russian Ufology, I co-authored with Philip
Mantle, contains more information about Plaksin and the Soviet
UFO research programs.

In his article Plaksin "reveals" several interesting
developments:

1. Many recent achievements of the American military-industrial
complex have been generated in the labs dedicated to the
research of paranormal phenomena.

2. 'Aliens' have nothing to do with American advanced technology
(i.e., Stealth).

3. In his 15 years of UFO research A. Plaksin had never obtained
direct proof that there are alien civilizations active on our
planet.

4. Americans have researched UFOs since 1954 (U.S. Air Force),
and since 1974 they have operated a secret scientific research
center to study anomalous phenomena and UFOs through the use of
a special Earth-based station. Hence, they (the Americans) were
able to create a superweapon. (A. Plaksin goes into scary
detaisl, but basically his aim is to denigrate American HAARP,
future U.S. policies, etc.)

5. A. Plaksin describes the creation of the Soviet program(s) to
study the anomalous phenomena from 1978 on. Good stuff; we have
gone into great detail in our book to describe such programs,
and have more information. But A. Plaksin was definitely one of
the key people, albeit, not the top brass.

6. A. Plaksin goes into fascinating details; the information
after all, came from Soviet military branches, the Navy, the
border guards, tanti-aircraft units, etc. Some of such cases I
described in The Soviet UFO Files (1998).

I was glad to find in his interview in Komsomol'skaya Pravda
fascinating details of a sighting from the Borisoglebsk airfield
(the immobile black cloud). The area itelf is very interesting,
and in our book, we dedicated some pages to the strane goings-on
there; the "cloud", too, is of great interest; there have been
other very strange "clouds" over the former USSR and Russia.

7. A. Plaksin mentions the infamous and very dangerous 1982 case
(and gives the correct date; Mr. Sokolov who has changed his
story repeatedly, ought to be ashamed. It was the 4th of
Octiber, not the 5th; and nothing but UFO almost triggerred a
nuclear war).

8. A. Plaksin states that there were no UFO crash in Kazakhstan
in 1978; no secret storage for UFO fragments in Mitische (Moscow
area), no supersecret storage in Novaya Zemlya..

Again, we should listen to him, and compare his information to
that provided by such respectable former Soviet military
officers as Gherman Kolchin, Lev Ovsicher, and others. Messers
Gershtein, Subbotin, Chernobrov should also be heard, for their
research skills are diverse and vast.

9. A. Plaksin is of the opinion that the unidentified objects
("20 percent", acc. to him) are of physical origin that is still
inknown to us. Our laws of physics cannot explain such objects.
He mentions two fascinating episodes (1977 and 1981).

10. Although A. Plaksin states that most likely there are no
aliens on Earth, he also mentions that because of military
secrecy he cannot reveal everything he knows.

I recently discussed A. Plaksin in a TV interview. Obviously, he
is revealing more information, piecemeal. There is more to be
learned from him, I hope, in the future. But again, he was but
one of the players.


Paul Stonehill








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   Jun > Jun 12

               Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:49:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:10:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked
 >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:36:19 -0700

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:36:46 EDT
 >>Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked


 >>This article has been around since 1999, but thought the List
 >>might enjoy the revist.

 >Robert,

 >Why would you post a known lie to UpDates?

 >Both Bateman and Price-Watts have admitted that this version of
 >events is untrue. Are you suggesting that this means the Alien
 >Autopsy is a hoax? You'll need better proof than this but if
 >you'd like to discuss the AA, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
 >I suggest that you first order the AA CD set so you have some
 >idea of what you're talking about.


 >Ed

Ed,

Take a big deep breath, and relax.....

Phillip Mantle investigated this to absolute death..... What he
came up with, all stories, claims and tales aside, is there is
only _one_ set of tent footage floating around, not multiples.
Apparently the multiples have to do with snippets and pieces
that have been excerpted here and there from the original, which
Phillip has.

Phillip Mantle was also given a copy of the full uncut version
of the tent footage _and_ AA by Santilli when he was gauging
public interest or whatever he was doing way back then.

The bottom line, Ed, is that Ray Santilli himself has stated
that the tent footage was hoaxed. He has confirmed what Phillip
Mantle has uncovered with his investigation.

So, no matter how many CD's you have, and no matter how many
times you view them, the bottom line is the tent footage is a
hoax, unless of course somebody wants to maintain that Ray lied
when he said it was a hoax.

Ed, lets make sure you and I are on the same sheet of music. We
are not discussing AA in this post. We are discussing the
fact that the very first set of footage that Ray produced
withered under investigation and Ray admitted that the tent
footage is hoaxed.

So, if these CD's have the tent footage on them for whatever the
reason, that portion of the CD is using hoaxed material pure and
simple.


Cheers,

Robert







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                           Re: UFO Frauds - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:16:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:13:39 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Gates


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Aldrich


 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 9:44:28 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds

 ><snip>

 >>Bill,

 >>Many people have a reduced copy of their 214 in their wallets.
 >>The VFW use to make such copies for members. Almost all
 >>employers want a copy of your 214 when you apply for employment.

 >Sorry, I have never seen a wallet-sized one. Why not lock it a
 >way in a safe box like I do.

 >>I am rather surprised that you are jumping on Kevin about this
 >>especially when it concerns self-confessed hoaxer Mel Noel.

 >Self-confessed? Never heard his confession.

 >The bottom line is Guy does not really care if UFO investigators
 >believe him or not and I cannot make him prove himself.

 >I have known him for 25+ years and have seen photos over the
 >years of him in a Sabre jet in full flight gear and a few other
 >photos that look as good as some of the photos from Edwards.

I knew a person for 15 or so years. Had pictures all over his
office of him in flight gear, him next to airplanes, blah blah,
turned out he was not a pilot... but he could easily hold his
own in a room full of pilots because he knew the terminology etc.,
etc.

What I would propose is that you could easily verify all of this
by using the information from what he is purporting are his
military records and independently request a copy from that
National Personell Records Center in St. Louis.

Knowing the Units and times he supposedly served in, a person
could easily get a copy of the Unit history from Maxwell which
should list him.

If you don't have time, you could provide me the information and
I would be happy to make the request.

This will put a stake in the story one way or the other.

Cheers,

Robert








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:33:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re:  UFO Frauds - Part III - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

<snip>

 >This is Part III, which is the shortest of the pieces.

 >Should I continue? Wendelle Stevens

<snip>

 >The Aztec UFO crash?

<snip>

 >Del Rio.. and Todd Zechel's inventive reporting

<snip>

 >J. Bond Johnson?

<snip>

 >Derrel Sims the CIA man..

<snip>

 >Edith Fiore... "Well, make it up."

<snip>

 >So what do we do?

<snip>

 >The real solution is very simple to state and nearly
 >impossible to implement. First we clean our own house.
 >We stop listening to those who have lied .. hoaxed,
 >and those who had misrepresented. We start applying some
 >strict standards to our investigations and hold everyone
 >to those standards.

 >We begin to peer review, and I would think that a
 >representative from CUFOS, FUFOR and MUFON would be the
 >place to begin (probably with some at large members
 >drawn from the experienced base of UFO research).

 >I would think support for the Journal of UFO Studies and
 >the Journal of Scientific Exploration would be helpful.
 >I would think that if we stop complaining about the
 >lack of science exhibited by CSICOP and start using
 >scientific methodology we would be miles ahead.

 >Yes, I have seen the idea for peer review come and go,
 >but I think it is now time to push for this idea.
 >I think that we have bumped into the walls, tripped
 >over the truth, and fallen out the windows long enough.
 >Now we must decide if we are going to be serious about
 >this or if we're going to allow the status quo go for
 >another 50 years.

 >KRandle


Hello Kevin:

I must be one of the few people you did not offend at all. I
enjoyed the series of 3 messages; usually I am put off by
anything that long.

I cannot find much of anything I disagree with on the first
reading, and probably won't if I read it again.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Jun > Jun 12

               Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:23:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:40:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:49:48 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:36:19 -0700

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:36:46 EDT
 >>>Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked

 >>>This article has been around since 1999, but thought the List
 >>>might enjoy the revist.

 >>Why would you post a known lie to UpDates?

 >>Both Bateman and Price-Watts have admitted that this version of
 >>events is untrue. Are you suggesting that this means the Alien
 >>Autopsy is a hoax? You'll need better proof than this but if
 >>you'd like to discuss the AA, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
 >>I suggest that you first order the AA CD set so you have some
 >>idea of what you're talking about.

 >Phillip Mantle investigated this to absolute death..... What he
 >came up with, all stories, claims and tales aside, is there is
 >only _one_ set of tent footage floating around, not multiples.
 >Apparently the multiples have to do with snippets and pieces
 >that have been excerpted here and there from the original, which
 >Phillip has.

<snip>

 >So, if these CD's have the tent footage on them for whatever the
 >reason, that portion of the CD is using hoaxed material pure and
 >simple.


Robert,

I would only like to add that while there may have been only one
version of the 'Tent Footage', there appears to have been
manipulation of the images during its duplication.

I believe that Philip himself has stated that the original 'Tent
Footage' sequence that he had seen was much brighter and clearer
than version released later by Ray on his video (which was also
shorter).

Since Ray has acknowledged that this segment was faked, it
doesn't really matter, but it seems the 'Tent Footage' was
modified as a 'work in progress' until it was finally
(officially) released.

Steve








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                 Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:36:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:44:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:14:07 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:07:17 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >>Alfred's Odd Observation #18 (Monday -- June 10, 2002)

 >>Like I said, ladies and gentlebunkies, just rock the freaking
 >>head back! Visibility was about 80% of "as good as it gets"
 >>around here this Monday morning

<snip>

 >So, what was your list, and did it include boosters?

No -- all the clueless alumni wisely stayed home...

Thanks for reprinting the J-PASS directions, Mr. Young. Though
they didn't appear to change perceptibly from my first reading
of them, their reprinting here gave them an intensity,
relevance, and _meaningfulness_ they could have achieved in
perhaps no other way... or perhaps you were trying to indicate
with the usual smirk of insinuation that I hadn't read them at
all... no matter.

My list, sir, included the passage of _all_ satellites in the
database that had 'some' visibility even if the magnitude of
that visibility was as low as ten! I understand that the
garden-variety and unaided human eye-ball can detect down to
about a magnitude of 'six' and then after that perception is
unlikely. The program component I use displays a graded 'actual'
starfield of the current night sky, the predicted track of the
satellite through the starfield with rising and setting
azimuths, and the track is color coded to indicate where the
satellite is moving in and out of direct sunlight...

The user can print out a copy of this star/sa-track chart for
their _exact_ geographical coordinates and carry it outside with
them, and with a time hack at the naval observatory to
synchronize them, easily match the stars on the chart with the
stars in the sky. I repeat, sir, for emphasis (so you'll hear
me inside that _box_ you've dry-walled yourself into...) that
what I am observing is either off the track, a vastly different
magnitude, or is not forecast at all... by the JAVA based NASA
J-PASS satellite prediction program.

Moreover, it's apparent that you have missed the point of my
observation series, completely, as a result of the box that you
have consigned yourself to, and so I must admonish you to
consider the _whole_ body of work (which is ongoing), and not
the tiny little portion you think (incorrectly, it appears) you
can score a point on.

 >Keep looking up but don't get a stiff neck.

Don't worry about me, the discomfort is worth it, and I have a
good chiropractor.

 >Bob Young


 >"Nyuk, Nyuk ...Woop, Woop, Woop, Woop"
 > Curley Howard, "Men in Black", 1934.

Oh... Curly... right... a minor god in _my_ personal pantheon...
a true "prince" among men loved by all in real life, I've heard.
For a moment I thought that was what passed for intelligent
repartee at a CSIOP gathering... <no little grinny thing>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Jun > Jun 13

                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:25:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 02:49:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle


 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:12:16 +0100 (BST)
 >From: Larry Warren? <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds Part 2
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Good Morning, List, Larry, All -

I have no desire to become caught in a quagmire of debate on the
Larry Warren's involvement, or noninvolvement, in the Bentwaters
case. I will, however, make a couple of comments here.


 >[Non-Subscriber Post]

 >I just had to respond to mr randles regular attacks
 >on my chariter on this list.

I don't believe I have engaged in regular attacks. Sporadic
would be the better word here. And attacks might be a little
over the top as well, though it is all a matter of semantics.

 >The latest, is the one in wich he hangs himself but good.
 >Kevin randle states that I was in germany on the two
 >nights of ufo activity at Bentwaters.
 >By now, kevin should know that it was three nights of
 >ufo activity on and near our airbase, Halt himself
 >backs this up, and so the mythical third night in fact
 >is reality, and i was indeed involved as my authentic
 >military records prove, along with the supporting
 >testamoney of others who place me on site.

I'm not sure that Halt backs up Warren's claims of three
nights. It seems to me that his letters, and his public
statements suggest two nights with confusion about the
dates because events began before midnight and carried
over into the next morning. I see no evidence of a third
night beyond what Warren himself has provided.

 >As for my being in west germany during the first two
 >nights, kevin is correct.

So, I'm not totally off the mark here. He wasn't there for the
first two nights which makes the third critical for him.

 >The audio tape kevin refers
 > to as discussions with Halt, are in fact the audio
 >tapes that Peter Robbins and myself provided to Halt
 >after we had recorded our interaction in washington
 >D.C. in 1992 the tapes were recorded with halts
 >permition and are transcribed in full in our book Left
 >at east gate. kevins selective edit of my conversation
 >with halt is in my oppinion slander, however it is
 >also a good measure of how this guy opperates.Folks
 >for the record, i have never been in dought concerning
 >what i saw in that forrest and on caple green. I do
 >question some of the aftermath, and state so to Halt
 >on the tape, kevins attempt to reword and invent
 >damaging text and then attribute it to me wont fly,

Peter Robbins said, in the context of the taped interview, "I
have a question for you [Halt]. Let's say there were real
unexplainable events that happened and they were taken advantage
of... That if certain of the men, Larry, Adrian, to name two,
remember certain things that were a mixture of what happened and
what was programmed for them to remember for other purposes..."

Halt is never given a chance to respond to this because the
conversation takes off in another direction. The implication of
the question, however, is that someone, or something, had
engaged in mind manipulation and seems to underscore my point
about Warren and his memories. They are not consistent.

 >and myself or my co author will be happy to let any
 >one have a listen, or better yet ,read the undoctored
 >transcripts in our book, you will then wonder what
 >tapes kevin is refering too ?.AS for my stating that
 >larry fauctt gave me a VSA, i never did, thus another
 >low life tactic by kevin. What i do state and infact
 >publish in my book left at east gate is this, on three
 >occasions in the early 1980s fauctt
 >tape recorded my testamony, after the third time iwas
 >fed up and asked him why he felt it nessesary, fauctt
 >told me that the CT state police had preformed a VSA
 >on the first two, and i passed, and he needed another
 >to continue the work. end of story, did he or did he
 >not ive no idea but just the same its what he told me.


On the tape Halt asked, "Have you taken a polygraph examination
to what you recall as the events that occurred related to you?"

Warren, after determining that Halt meant a lie detector, said,
"Not a lie detector test. I took a voice... where they check the
voice..."

Halt said, "Voice stress analysis?"

Warren said, "Yeah, through Fawcett. Three times. Through the
Connecticut State Police actually."

Fawcett, on the other hand, told me on May 28, 1996, that he had
never subjected Warren to a voice stress analysis. Fawcett said,
"I never voice stress analyzed him."

Say what you will, I have accurately reported what I have been
told and been given. Warren admits that he wasn't there for the
first two nights and that he was in Germany. So, the question is
really, were there two nights of activity or three? If there
were but two, then Warren wasn't involved. If three... then
maybe.


KRandle






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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:24:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 02:53:18 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - McCoy


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:33:31 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 ><snip>

 >>This is Part III, which is the shortest of the pieces.

 >>Should I continue? Wendelle Stevens

 ><snip>

 >>The Aztec UFO crash?

 ><snip>

 >>Del Rio.. and Todd Zechel's inventive reporting

 ><snip>

 >>J. Bond Johnson?

 ><snip>

 >>Derrel Sims the CIA man..

 ><snip>

 >>Edith Fiore... "Well, make it up."

 ><snip>

 >>So what do we do?

 ><snip>

 >>The real solution is very simple to state and nearly
 >>impossible to implement. First we clean our own house.
 >>We stop listening to those who have lied .. hoaxed,
 >>and those who had misrepresented. We start applying some
 >>strict standards to our investigations and hold everyone
 >>to those standards.

 >>We begin to peer review, and I would think that a
 >>representative from CUFOS, FUFOR and MUFON would be the
 >>place to begin (probably with some at large members
 >>drawn from the experienced base of UFO research).

 >>I would think support for the Journal of UFO Studies and
 >>the Journal of Scientific Exploration would be helpful.
 >>I would think that if we stop complaining about the
 >>lack of science exhibited by CSICOP and start using
 >>scientific methodology we would be miles ahead.

 >>Yes, I have seen the idea for peer review come and go,
 >>but I think it is now time to push for this idea.
 >>I think that we have bumped into the walls, tripped
 >>over the truth, and fallen out the windows long enough.
 >>Now we must decide if we are going to be serious about
 >>this or if we're going to allow the status quo go for
 >>another 50 years.

 >I must be one of the few people you did not offend at all. I
 >enjoyed the series of 3 messages; usually I am put off by
 >anything that long.

 >I cannot find much of anything I disagree with on the first
 >reading, and probably won't if I read it again.


Same here, I am an experiencer, I _know_ something is out there,
I am not, however willing to upset my whole pardigim paradgim,
er, whatever, for some fool or delusional saying lo! there! or
some evil soul abusing followers for cash or their fifteen
minutes (sometimes way more than they deserve) of fame.

Good job Kevin, there are at least two now who support you ! If
there is any progress to be made, it has to come from honest
hard working people.

Thanks,

GT McCoy







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                         Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:41:17 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:12:30 -0400
Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic


I have been playing with the pic, here's a negative image with
emboss & trace using Paintshop Pro.

http://www.cairns.net.au/~tims/LAufo1942negEMBOSStrace.jpg

It certainly seems to fit the classic saucer profile and no hard
edges are detected. Interesting!

The relevant post from June 6 02 is here...

"Prolly old news to many of you, but I only just read about it
and in light of recent discussions of UFO's over Washington DC I
thought I'd paste this link which includes a photograph. The
object is barely visable as it was illuminated by many AA
searchlights. Over 1400 AA rounds were fired at it without any
apparent damage. Incredible!

http://www.rense.com/ufo/battleofLA.htm"


Regards Dave







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              CCCRN News: Another Grass Formation - Mansfield,

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:09:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:09:22 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Another Grass Formation - Mansfield,

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:25:38 +0000
Subject: CCCRN News: Another Grass Formation - Mansfield, Ontario


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

June 12, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002

ANOTHER GRASS FORMATION - MANSFIELD, ONTARIO

Another unusual 'formation' in tall grass reported yesterday by
the same landowner as the previous Mansfield report of May 30,
consisting of two new additional flattened areas found. The
first is in the very same spot as the previous area from May 30
near the landowner's shop (the grass in that one had since
recovered and was almost completely back to normal). The second
is near the kennel on the property, and the largest one yet at
several feet across and very flat to the ground. As before, no
similar patterns found in any other surrounding grass areas or
fields.

While again these are non-geometric flattenings and may be only
the result of lodging / wind damage, the landowner reported no
wind or rain the previous night and dry ground in the morning,
although the wind and rain did pick up through the day
yesterday. What makes these cases interesting is the finding of
stretched / 'permanently' bent nodes on the grass stalks from
inside the flattened areas and other unusual circumstances, ie
the agitated behaviour of the family cat and computer / phone
problems the same night (from the May 30 occurrence).

The similar random flattenings in the hay field at Duncan, BC on
May 29 also contained stretched nodes up to four times normal
length as well as ruptured nodes (photos of these from both
cases available soon). It is also interesting to note that there
were clumps of dandelions inside the flattened areas which were
still standing upright with their white 'puffball' seed heads
still intact.

These anomalies, often found in 'regular' crop formations, have
also been found in other areas of 'randomly downed crop' over
the years, suggesting that perhaps not all such areas are just
wind damage but some may be connected somehow to whatever forms
the other circular and geometric patterns. For reference, see
Judy Arndt's (Crop Circle Quest and CCCRN field research
assistant) report on interesting comparison studies done in
Alberta in 2000:

http://www.CropCircleQuest.com/beaumont_lodged/index.html

The landowner is requesting privacy as to name, specific
location and other unusual reported events.

This is the third report for 2002.


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations / ground studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and farming / media awareness initiatives, in
particular during the prime August / September 'circle season'
on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 24

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:09:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:17:06 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 24


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 24
June 11, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


ALIENS LAND AT A SCHOOL
IN SOUTHERN TURKEY

       A UFO landed behind a primary school in southern
Turkey on Wednesday, June 5, 2002, and more than one alien
emerged from the craft.
       The incident was witnessed by 45 people.
       The witnesses were in the Santral district of
Antalya, a seaport city on the Mediterranean located about
210 kilometers (126 miles) southwest of Ankara, the
national capital.  According to the Sirius Space Sciences
Research Center, the witnesses "saw a UFO" pass over
Antalya, followed by a "landing in the backyard of the
Fatima Pirilti Primary School and saw an alien being
getting out of the craft."
       Murat Esici, age 11, an eyewitness, said, "He (the
occupant) was emitting red rays from his eyes.  His hands
and feet were iron.  He had a very big head, and he was
1.8 meters (6 feet) tall."
       Sirius director Haktan Akdogan reported, "Murat was
crying at the principal Halil Aldemir's office.  It is
said that he (the boy) lost his voice after his sighting."
       "Students Zeynep Cipinar and Malan Donmez also
claimed that they saw an unusual craft and an alien beside
it.  'His eyes and hands were red,'" they reported, "'and
a red light was emitting from his eyes.'" The children
       "observed some alien beings getting out of the UFO.
       Murat, Zeynep and Malan explained the details to the
       principal of the school, Halil Aldemir, and described
       the alien they saw.  The children were overcome with
       shock."
       Akdogan interviewed the governor of Antalya, Ertugrul
Dokuzoglu, by telephone and then flew to the southern city
to interview the witnesses.  (See the Turkish newspapers
Milliyet and Aksam for June 6, 2002.  Many thanks to
Haktan Akdogan for this news report.)
(Editor's Note: Curiously, Jenny Laplante, 17, one of the
eyewitnesses in the January 2002 UFO sighting in Inkerman,
New Brunswick, Canada reported having a strange dream
afterward about an alien with a big head and red eyes.
See UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 10 for March 5, 2002,
"UFOs sighted by many in New Brunswick, Canada," page 1.
Are "the Redeyes" the latest alien race to visit Earth?)


SMALL GREEN ALIEN SEEN
IN CENTRAL ARGENTINA

       "The presence of a 'dwarf' or 'green midget'
wandering the backyards of many neighborhoods in General
Acha," a small city in Argentina's La Pampa province about
400 kilometers (250 miles) southwest of Buenos Aires, has
been the latest subject of conversation.  It appears to be
a short green entity which runs away with haste when
detected."
       The small green humanoid turned up last week in the
midst of the cattle mutilation scare still raging in the
General Acha region.  (See the following cattle mutilation
story for the latest news from General Acha--J.T.)
       "A resident of the barrio El Oeste (neighborhood)
informed this newspaper (La Arena) that the entity
appeared twice on her property, once in the morning and
once in the afternoon."
       "According to the woman, her husband was resting on
both occasions, but when he reported to the backyard
following his wife's screams, the mysterious entity
vanished by rapidly climbing up a tree.  While the man did
not see the 'dwarf,' he gave his spouse the benefit of the
doubt, stating that he has known her for 40 years and can
vouch for her physical and mental health."
       "All the witnesses agree that the entity is short in
stature.  Another resident stated that it moved so quickly
that it was hard to describe it.  The fact is that this
entity, described as 'a green dwarf,' is causing a stir in
the city (General Acha), and its manifestations have been
the subject of conversation in many circles.  The stories
have already captivated radio audiences, and interest and
curiosity about the subject continues to grow as time goes
by."  (See the Argentinian newspaper La Arena for June 6,
2002, "Strange dwarf reported in cattle mutilation area."
muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor de los libros
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, y
tambien Gloria Coluchi para eso articulo de diario.)


MORE CATTLE MUTILATED
NEAR GENERAL ACHA

       "Two more cows were found dead yesterday (Sunday,
June 2, 2002) under very strange circumstances in a field
owned by Mario Horacio Guinder some 15 kilometers (9
miles) away from General Acha, to the east of the city."
       "As in earlier cases, the animals were missing
certain organs."  (For more on Argentina's surge of cattle
mutilations, see UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 19 for May
7, 2002, "Three cattle mutilations reported in Argentina,"
page 1; UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 22, for May 28,
2002, "Another cow mutilated in central Argentina," page
4; and UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 23 for June 4, 2002,
"Cattle mutilations spread in Argentina," page 1.)
       "No traces were found on the premises, and the cause
of death remained a mystery at the close of this edition.
The two animals were found some 500 meters (1,650 feet)
away from each other.  Police authorities and a
professional veterinarian went to the site and were
stunned by the fact that one of the cows had an embryo
'cleanly' removed from its womb 'as though some type of
laser beam had been used,' according to the veterinarian."
       A couple of days later, "another dead cow was found
mysteriously slain in a field in the Quehue region.  The
event occurred this time at the 'La Gilardina' ranch,
located approximately 10 kilometers (6 miles) south of
General Acha.  The animal was missing certain organs as in
similar cases, which now add up to more than ten."
       "In an interview with La Arena, the officer in charge
of the Quehue police station, Julio Acosta, stated that at
6:30 p.m. on Tuesday (June 4, 2002), Angel Junco, the
foreman at La Gilardina ranch, reported having found a
dead cow that was white and drained of blood, missing the
right half of its jaw, tongue, right eye and all of its
udders.  But unlike other cases, the animal had been
completely hollowed out because its lungs were also
missing."
       "According to the information provided by Acosta, the
event would have taken place during the early morning
hours on Tuesday since Junco had been roaming the premises
the day before and didn't come across anything unusual."
       "The police investigation is under the command of
Quehue deputy sheriff Julio Acosta from the police station
located along Provincial Highway 18."
       "Meanwhile, a resident of Quehue reported that at
10:30 p.m. on Monday night (June 3, 2002), when the
(mutilation) event might have taken place, he had
witnessed several intense lights in the direction of La
Gilardina."  (See the Argentinian newspaper La Arena for
June 6, 2002, "Another dead cow found in the Quehue
region."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi
para eso articulo de diario.)


FAMILY VIDEOTAPES UNUSUAL
UFO OVER ISTANBUL

       "While filming lightning scenes with his amateur
videocamera, in the Anadolu Hisari section of Istanbul,"
the largest city in Turkey, "Saffet Sap, 42, an electrical
engineer, and his sister, Serpil Sap, managed to capture
an unusually-shaped UFO on their videotape."
       "Sap explained, 'On (Sunday) the 26th of May (2002),
at around 6:30 p.m., I was filming lightning strikes on my
amateur camera, at a distance of about two kilometers,
over Anadolu Hisari.  At first I thought it was either a
kite or a plane.  Then the stationary object began to
ascend in the air.  It had seven or eight legs.  There
were green, yellow and red lights flashing on top of the
object.  Green smoke was also emitted from underneath
towards the rear of the object.  The object moved overhead
and followed a very (straight) linear path towards the
north.'"
       "After hovering for a while, the unknown object
departed slowly behind a hill.  The witnesses watched it
until it was out of sight.  The entire spectacle lasted
for three-and-a-half minutes."
       Sirius Space Sciences Research Center analyzed the
Sap video, center director Haktan Akdogan said, and
ascertained a number of additional facts as a result.
       One, "the object was inside the atmosphere, hovering
at about 1,500 to 2,000 meters (4,950 to 9,900 feet) above
the ground."
       Two, "this unusually-shaped UFO appeared to have a
row of round portholes (maybe ten of them--H.A.) around
the outer edge, but they were not lit up."
       Three, the UFO "was rotating around its own axis."
       "It was also found that the object remained
stationary from time to time and then started moving
again, which challenges the law of gravity," Akdogan
added.
(Many thanks to Haktan Akdogan and Sirius Space Sciences
Research Center for this report.)


ORANGE FIREBALL STARTLES
A MOTORIST IN GERMANY

       On Saturday, June 1, 2002, the witness M.M. was
driving on a road in the Schwarzwald just outside Wollbach
in Baden-Wurtemberg state in Germany when a strange orange
glow caught his attention.
       "I saw the fireball in the village of Wollbach, near
the city of Lorrach and the borders of France and
Switzerland," M.M. reported, "The evening I saw the
fireball, the orange lights were so large and so low that
I initially thought it was some kind of street lamp.  Then
I pulled over and watched as the light rose slowly into
the air and streaked across the sky."
       It was the most bizarre thing I've ever seen," he
added, "I have no idea what it was.  Has anyone else seen
anything like this?"
       Wollbach is located about 45 kilometers (27 miles)
northeast of Basel, Switzerland.  (Email Form Report)


SILVER DISC HOVERS OVER A
POWER PLANT IN VENEZUELA

       On Monday, June 3, 2002, "at 7:42 p.m., there (was) a
UFO over the electricity-generating plant located in Bello
Monte," a suburb of Caracas, the capital of Venezuela.
       According to Venezuelan ufologist Martha Rosenthal,
who received a phone call as the incident was happening,
eyewitness Ricardo Delgado, age 11, said, "It is a
flattened shiny disc with lights.  They look like stadium
lights--enormous--red, yellow and white, with quick color
changes.  The red color brightens, then dims."
       Ricardo's "brother George, 16, and sister, Penelope,
14, also saw it.  The object was stationary at first and
then balanced smoothly until it disappeared and
reappeared.  This (sequence) occurred twice."
       "His father, Enrique Delgado, claims it was not a
satellite.  The object's movement or displacement (first)
drew their attention.  Even though Ricardo has seen these
(UFOs) at other times, he nonetheless remains very
excited."  (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Martha
Rosenthal de CEINPLA para esas noticias.)


SENSATIONAL FOSSILS FOUND
NEAR LAKE ONTARIO

       "Scientists investigating an abandoned quarry in
Canada have found what appear to be the oldest known
footprints of terrestrial creatures--foot-long (30
centimeter-long) critters resembling modern bugs that
crawled from the sea onto the land and left tracks in sand
dunes."
       "The sandstone is 480 million to 500 million years
old.  Scientists believe the discovery region--just north
of Lake Ontario outside Kingston, Ontario," Canada--"was a
sandy beach on a primordial sea."
       "The find, the scientists say, pushes back the
colonization of land by about 40 million years and puts it
in or near the late Cambrian Period, when the seas were
starting to boil with large creatures."
       "The tracks were saved from oblivion when quarry
crews shunned the sandstone as unsuitable for commercial
use."
       "In cooperation with the quarry owner, the scientists
are keeping the exact location of the find a secret to
discourage looters and fossil hunters.  The discovery is
described in the May (2002) issue of the journal Geology
by Dr. Robert MacNaughton, a scientists at the Geological
Survey of Canada, who led the team, and five other
Canadian and British scientists."
       "In the past decade or so, specialists studying old
rocks have steadily pushed back the time when sea animals
are believed to have first come ashore."
       "The date has gone from Silurian Period, which is
generally accepted to have started 440 million years ago,
to the Ordovician (Period), which started 490 million
years ago, to the Cambrian (Period), which started 544
million years ago."
       "The Cambrian was characterized by warm shallow seas
(like the Arafura Sea between Indonesia and Australia
today--J.T.) and the appearance of the first hard-shelled
marine animals, like trilobites."
       "The scientists said the Canadian find includes more
than 25 sets of tracks that crisscross an area about the
size of a small basketball court.  Some of the footprints
are deep enough to cast shadows."
       "Typically, the tracks have a central area where the
body and tail made impressions as the animal moved forward
and parallel areas where rows of legs left multiple
footprints."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for June
6, 2002, "Canadian find pushes back life's move from sea
to land," page 10A.)
(Editor's Comment: This find is really mind-blowing.  It
proves that there was animal life on both land and sea
during the Cambrian Period half a billion years ago, and
that these "insectoids" were contemporaneous with the
trilobites, previously thought to be at the top of
Cambrian evolution.  Did both species evolve from a
common, unknown ancestor?  Are the newfound "insectoids"
even indigenous to Earth?)


SCIENTISTS DISCOVER AN INCA
RUIN IN THE JUNGLES OF PERU

       "U.S. and British explorers said they have found a
large Inca town that was lost for more than 400 years in
the jungles of Peru."
       "'This is the biggest thing I have come across in 20
years working in the area,' said the team's co-leader Hugh
Thomson, a Fellow of Britain's reknowned Royal Geographic
Society."
       "'It felt like a once-in-a-lifetime experience when
we found it,'" Thomson added, in an interview from his
home in Bristol, UK.
       "Working on a tip from a mule driver, four
researchers spent three weeks cutting through (rain)
forests.  At the bottom of a valley carved by the Rio
Yanama" in eastern Peru, "they found the site called Cota
Coca."
       The deserted Inca city is located 100 kilometers (60
miles) east of Cuzco, which had been the capital of
Tahuatinsuyo, the Inca empire.  The Rio Yanama valley is
1,850 meters (6,069 feet) above sea level.
(Editor's Note:  The Incas called this region Antisuyo.
Today it's known in Peru as El Oriente or la selva.)
       "'It was a very privileged moment.  This is a very
substantial settlement, but you can pass within 10 feet (3
meters) of a ruin in the jungle and not know it is there,'
said Thomson, who led the expedition with Gary Ziegler."
       "He said there was no indication why the town had
been abandoned and forgotten.  There was no evidence of
battle or looting, and the Incas appeared to have simply
withdrawn from the area after the death of (the last Inca)
Tupac Amaru in 1571."
(Editor's Comment: It's possible that an epidemic wiped
out the population of Cota Coca, a disease caused by
European viruses against which the indigenous people had
no immunity.  This happened in North America.  When
Hernando de Soto traveled along the Mississippi River, he
found 50 towns and villages.  But when French explorers
returned to the same area a century later, there was not
even a village left.  When the Pilgrims arrived in Tolba
Meneham (now Massachusetts) in 1620, they found a large
town, Pawtuxet (now Plymouth, Mass.), completely
abandoned.  The leading sachem (chief) Massasoit told them
that the population had been destroyed by a sickness.)
       "'After finding Cota Coca, we will be going back to
the area to search for more ruins,' Thomson said, 'If this
settlement is there, there could well be others.'"  (See
USA Today for June 7, 2002, "Explorers find lost Inca town
in Peru," page 11A.)
(Editor's Comment:  Hurry up, Hugh.  Right now every
huaquero in Cuzco is talking about the giant golden idols,
stacks of jewels and the legendary lost treasure of
Atahualpa, all just lying around, waiting to be found in
that Nuevo El Dorado, the Rio Yanama valley.)

  From the UFO Files...

1908: UNFORGETTABLE
            FRANCISCO MARTO

       June 11 marks the birthday of this son of Portugal,
who in the last century has been making a strange odyssey
from shepherd to UFO eyewitness to saint.
       Francisco Marto was born on June 11, 1908 in
Aljustrel, a vellage in the Serra da Aire of central
Portugal, the son of Manuel Pedro Marto and Olimpia de
Jesus dos Santos de Rosa.  He was the youngest son and the
ninth child to come along in the sizable Marto family.
       It's conceivable that, had he lived, Francisco might
still be alive today, on his 94th birthday.  His cousin,
Lucia Abobora dos Santos, the sole survivor among the
youthful "seers of Fatima" turned 95 three months ago, and
she's still living.
       "Francisco was very much like his father.  He was a
handsome child with fine steady eyes and was generally
amiable, considerate and polite."
       Speaking of him in 1946, his father recalled, "He was
never afraid of anything, either.  He would go out boldly
on the darkest and foggiest night, when others of his age
would shrink from the vast unknown of the Serra.  Or he
would catch wild rabbits and foxes and make pets of them."
And then with a touch of regret, he added, "What a man he
would have been!"
       He had a natural knack for music.  "Francisco would
sit on a stone in front of the Abobora cottage and play a
tune on his pifaro, a little wooden fife that he
treasured.  Then he would follow them (cousin Lucia and
sister Jacinta) to the threshing floor near the well, and
watch with them until the stars began to come out...The
glint of sunlight on drops of dew or on the gilded surface
of a pond, the ruddy glare of late afternoon on the
windows of houses in a neighboring village--anything of
this sort was enough to make him cheerful for the rest of
the day."
       "Considering his (young) age there was a great deal
of the detachment and the serenity of the saints in
Francisco...This indifference was his chief defect, in
Lucia's opinion, and was probably the reason why other
children did not care much to play with him."
       On March 11, 1910, along came the eleventh child in
the Marto household, Jacinta, Francisco's younger sister
and lifelong sidekick.  As Lucia wrote in her 1937 memoir,
"A very different person was the capricious and willful
Jacinta, so much so, that no one would ever have suspected
they were brother and sister, had they not resembled each
other so noticeably, with their dark brown eyes, their
well-spaced features, the firm comely mouths, the curve of
their cheeks.  But in temperament, no."
       Although the Marian apparitions brought him to world
attention in 1917, Francisco's involvement with the
paranormal began just over a year earlier, in the late
spring of 1916, when he was eight years old and Jacinta
was six.
       "The three children had led their sheep" into a
grotto on the side of O Cabeco (Portuguese for The Head),
a promontory at Cova da Iria, near Fatima.  "Suddenly, a
gust of wind startled them.  Instinctively they turned
about toward the plain, for around them everything was
calm."
       "Above the olive trees that covered the slope below
them they saw a dazzling light, and in the midst of it,
coming toward them, a human form.  It was white, whiter
than snow, and it seemed like a crystal statue radiant
throughout with sunlight.  As it drew nearer, they could
make it out to be a youth of fourteen or fifteen,
superhumanly beautiful."
       Approaching the children, the entity said, "Do not be
afraid.  I am the Angel of Peace.  Pray with me."
       After praying for an end to the then-raging World War
I, the angel instructed Francisco, Lucia and Jacinta to
return to Cova da Iria on a monthly basis.
       Unknown to the children, however, others in the
region had also seen the entity.  In July 1946, Maria da
Freitas, the daughter of a famous editor of the newspaper
O Seculo, said "that long before she had heard anything
about the apparitions at Fatima, a woman of the district
repeated to her an apparently absurd tale brought home by
her daughter, who said she and some others had seen 'a
white man without any head floating in the air.'"
(Editor's Comment:  The senora's father, of course,
initially refused to print these reports in O Seculo, lest
they "impede the progress of the socialist revolution."
Which appears to be the sad fate of most paranormal
phenomena, for as Charles Fort pointed out, the scissors
is mightier than the pen AND the sword.)
       Three more angel visitations followed.  And then, on
Sunday, May 13, 1917, while tending the sheep at the Cova,
the children "were startled by a flash so brilliant that
they took it to be lightning.  Without stopping to ask how
it could have come from a cloudless sky, they ran helter-
skelter down the slope toward a certain (evergreen) oak,
or carrasqueira, about a hundred yards or more southwest
of where they'd been playing.  They had just found shelter
under its thick, wide-spreading foliage when there was a
second flash of light.  Again frightened, the children
left the tree and darted toward the east, a distance of
perhaps another hundred yards.  Then they stopped in
amazement.  For just before them, on top of a small
evergreen called the azinheira--it was about three feet
(0.9 meters) high, and its glossy leaves had prickles on
them, like cactus--they saw a ball of light.  And in the
center of it stood a Lady."
       Although she did not identify herself until much
later, the Virgin Mary (birth name: Miriam bat-Joachim)
urged Francisco and the girls to recite their Rosary daily
and pray for an end to the war.  She also swore them to
secrecy, a secret that remained secret for all of five
hours before seven-year-old Jacinta blurted it out to her
mother when the Martos returned from a market trip to
Batalha.
       The news spread swiftly through Aljustrel, provoking
mostly laughter and a good deal of amazement,
consternation and downright hostility.
       "'Did you ever hear anything like it!?'"
       "'Such brats!  They should be punished.'"
       "'It's the parents' fault."
       "'They haven't enough switches to keep them in line.'"
       And then there was the uncharitable nun, who
remarked, "Francisco Marto--a saint!?  That will happen
when they elect a Polack the Pope!"
(Editor's Comment:  Will somebody down there in Purgatory
kindly help the sister extract the foot from her mouth?)
       The hostility nearly became unbearable for Lucia.
Frightened that the family's precarious financial
situation might worsen, the girl's abusive mother twice
beat her with a broomstick and ordered her to recant.
Lucia was mightily tempted to do so.
As June 13, the day of the Lady's promised return
approached, she informed her cousins that she would not be
returning to Cova da Iria.
       "'And how can we go without you?'" Francisco asked,
"'If you are the one who has to talk?'"
       Lucia: "I'm not going."
       Francisco: "Well, I'm going."
       Jacinta:  "And so am I, because that Lady told us to."
       Francisco:  "Look, are you going tomorrow?"
       Lucia: "I'm not going.  I told you, I'm never going
any more."
       Francisco: "Don't you see it can't be the devil?  God
is already sad over so many sins, and now he will be
sadder still."
       Lucia: "I tell you, I'm not going!"
       But, in the end, Francisco proved persuasive, and
Lucia accompanied her cousins to Cova da Iria for the
second apparition.  And this time a crowd went with them.
       By July, news of the apparitions had reached Lisboa.
Magalhaes Lima, the Illuminati's deputy in the region,
ordered his subordinate, Arturo de Oliveira Santos, the
administrator of Ourem, to "do something" about the kids.
Santos, also known as "the Tinsmith," had the police
arrest them in August.  The children were locked up with
thieves, pimps, murderers and alcoholics.  But if the
Illuminati were hoping the inmates would do their dirty
work for them, they were disappointed.
       "After that, Lucia remembers," Francisco was "quite
the little man, taking care of his sister and his cousin.
It was Jacinta who burst into tears when the last hope of
a visit from Our Lady forsook them."
       "'Our parents will never see us again!' she wailed,
'They will never hear any more about us!'"
       "'Don't cry, Jacinta,' said her brother, 'Let's offer
this to Jesus for poor sinners, as that Lady told us to
do.'  And raising his eyes to heaven, he made this
offering, 'My Jesus, this is for your love and for the
conversion of sinners!'"
       Faced with a public outcry, Santos released the pint-
sized seers.  And the apparitions continued, resulting in
the tumultuous events of October 13, 1917, the "globe of
light" and "solar miracle" witnessed by 30,000 people.
       In the months that followed, Francisco faced a new
challenge--making the transition from seer to celebrity.
In April 1918, a motorcar--a rare sight in rural
Aljustrel--pulled into the plaza.  Out came half a dozen
women in spring finery and those oversized hats so
fashionable that year.  Having a pretty good idea why they
were in town, Francisco told the girls, "Climb the tree--
quick!  They won't be able to see us in those hats."
       Sure enough, Lucia reported, the trio sat in the
branches of a carrasqueira while the celebrity-hunters
walked directly beneath them and "never once looked up."
       A couple of months later, some enterprising fellows
showed up at the Marto home, laid out an array of rosary
beads, crucifixes and other religious items, and asked
Francisco to bless them.  Puzzled, Francisco said, "Why do
you ask me to bless them?  Take them to a priest.  He can
bless them.  I cannot."
       Then he was even more puzzled and a little hurt when
"the men departed, hurling insults at him."  Alas,
Francisco had much to learn about the cash-value of being
a celebrity.
       But he never had the opportunity.  In December 1918,
the Spanish influenza epidemic reached this remote region
of the Serra da Aire, and on December 23, two days before
Christmas, Francisco and Jacinta were struck down.
       "During the first weeks of his illness, he could not
leave his bed.  'He suffered with heroic patience during
the time of sickness,'" Lucia wrote, "'If he was too weak
to say (the Rosary), he was much distressed.  On certain
days, when he could be up and felt strong enough to go
out, he would climb up to Cova da Iria."
       "Toward the end of February (1919) the little boy's
sickness grew much worse.  He had to go back to bed.  One
day Lucia asked her cousin, 'Francisco, do you suffer
much?'"
       "'Bastante (Portuguese for Enough--J.T.),'" he
replied, "'But it doesn't matter. I suffer to console Our
Lord, and in a little while I shall be with him.'"
       On April 2, 1919, Francisco took a turn for the worse
and shortly thereafter received the last rites of the
Roman Catholic Church.  Two days later, "the fourth of
April, at about six o'clock, he said to his mother: 'Mama,
look at the beautiful light near the door!'"
       "Then his face was brightened with an angelic smile,
and without a groan, he gently expired.  Born on June 11,
1908 (died on April 4, 1919), he was not yet eleven years
old."
       Least known of the three Fatima seers, we can say of
Francisco Marto what his aged still-grieving father said
in 1947, "What a man he would have made."  (See Our Lady
of Fatima by William Thomas Walsh, Macmillan Co., New
York, N.Y., 1947, pages 13, 22, 24, 25, 51, 52, 78, 111,
166, 167 and 168; La Meraviglie di Fatima by Father Luis
Gonzaga da Fonseca S.J., Edizione Paoline, Roma, 1967,,
pages 18, 19, 94, 95, 116, 117, 122 and 123; The Sun
Danced at Fatima by Joseph A. Pelletier, Image Books,
Doubleday and Co., Garden City, N.Y., 1983, pages 55, 56,
67, 88, 89, 133 and 134; also Fatima, das portugeisches
Lourdes by Ludwig Fischer, Ph. D., 1930.  And for
Jacinta's biography, see UFO Roundup, volume 5, number 10
for March 9, 2000, "1910: Unforgettable Jacinta Marto.")

       That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue in which the item first appeared..

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or use the Sighting Report Form at:

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 13

                Re: BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:56:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:19:15 -0400
Subject: Re: BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:23:33 +0200
 >Subject: BBC News: 'UFO video' Goes To Hollywood


 >Source: BBC News

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1363000/1363848.stm

 >Go to the page to see photo!

 >Stig

***


 >UK

 >Friday, 1 June, 2001, 16:27 GMT 17:27 UK

**

 >'UFO video' goes to Hollywood

*

 >A Derbyshire housewife has sold what she says is a video of a
f>lying saucer to a Hollywood producer.

 >Sharon Rowlands, 44, from the village of Bonsall, in the Peak
 >District, has reportedly been paid =A320,000 for the footage.

 >And officials at NASA are said to have asked to examine the
 >tape, because they believe it shows the same type of craft once
 >spotted by the space agency's own cameras during a space shuttle
 >mission.

 >Ms Rowlands said she took the film with a camcorder after
 >hearing an eerie noise outside her home one evening in October
 >last year.


I couldn't get the picture to download. However, I think this is
a video taken a year and a half ago (fall 2000) which indeed
shows a light, but the image is large because of (my opinion)
complete defocus.  If, indeed , it is a defocused image the
edges may appear sharp but any apparent bright/dark structure of
the image is a result of aberrations in lenses and diffraction.
The "bite" out of one edge is where contacts are made to the CCD
(I think) and color changes are a result of scintillation in the
atmosphere when the light source is very distant.

(The overall shape of the image is a shadow of the aperture of
the lens, i.e., of the edge if the lens. IF the aperture is
round, then the image is round.)








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 13

                    Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles

From: Duncan Ives Lewis <iveslewis@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:44:06 -0400
Subject: Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles


Originally posted to 'Whispers' by Ives Lewis
Tuesday, 11 June 2002, at 5:02 p.m.

http://www.junjun.com/cgi-bin/boards/whispers/config.pl?read=3D32786


Blinded by "Science"

Have you ever participated in a discussion and realized that
there was a fundamental flaw in another=92s position, but could
not quite put your finger on it? Recent discussions with
debunkers have me thinking about  their positions  on UFOs =96
particularly one post, not written by a debunker, that included
the following statement:

"There are two avenues of scientific research, and both are
necessary to gain any level of advancement in science. They are
empirical and speculative. And, for some reason, the skeptics,
as well as many believers, leave out the speculative end of
research."

It was an excellent point. Moreover, I realized something. Most
of us here in the 'believer' category (I hate the label) have
accepted and even valued much of the work of the debunkers,
recognizing the contribution made by weeding out the weaker
cases. On one level, it would appear that we all have the same
goal of finding truth. Not to pick on Oberg, but in thinking
back on his posts, I=92ve yet to see him acknowledge any factors
in any cases that would support the ETH. Where is the
willingness to speculate based on the available evidence? One
example of this curious absence is his response to the 1967
Malmstrom incident. I cannot quote him from memory. But to me,
the substance of his response was rather impatient: =91yes yes, an
unexplained case that deserves to be investigated,=92 and so on
and so forth. No acknowledgement whatsoever of the behavioral
aspects of the case which pointed away from some kind of random
prosaic event. No willingness to speculate on the basis of
evidence that literally jumps from the case.

Why?

The best debaters concede points to their opponents when the
point is won. The refusal on the part of Oberg and others to
ever concede behavioral or observational characteristics that
suggest anything other than a prosaic explanation is suspicious.
Dictionary.com gives the following definition to the "scientific
method":

"The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for
scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of
phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the
phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness
of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies
the hypothesis."

I see that the phrase "observation of phenomena" is included.
The debunker viewpoint seems to put blinders on for the most
obvious, intriguing behavioral aspects of incidents such as
Malmstrom. It appears to be a deliberate effort not just to give
such factors negligible importance, but to disregard them
entirely. Instead, time is spent promoting unidentified prosaic
explanations that offer nothing to the debate except dead
weight. This is then masqueraded as a scientific approach, and
those of us who question this are treated condescendingly.

If we contrast those actual practices to the ideals of the
scientific method as defined, we find they are inconsistent in
the most fundamental ways possible. The debunker method does not
only involve observation of phenomena; it also involves
disregarding factors inconsistent with a preconceived final
position. It does not involve the formulation of a hypothesis
concerning the phenomena; it instead involves the promotion of
unidentified prosaic explanations consistent with the
preconceived final position. And while the debunkers have
shouted shrilly their criticism that experimentation is not
possible to test the ETH hypothesis, their failure to even name
their proposed prosaic explanations, exemplified by Oberg's
failure to do so in Malmstrom, marks the ultimate hypocrisy. How
can an unidentified theory be tested?

This can only be defined as a grand betrayal of the fundamental
guiding principles of science.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 13

                       FOIA Request To CIA - 06-12-02

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:24:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:57:29 -0400
Subject: FOIA Request To CIA - 06-12-02


TO:   Director
       U. S. Central Intelligence Agency
       ATTN: Freedom of Information Manager
       Washington, DC 20505

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
       3518 Martha Custis Drive
       Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE: June 12, 2002


Word has come to me that, on Oct. 26, 2001, certain FOIA
officials at the U. S. National Archives and Records
Administration forwarded to your agency, for declassification
review, the full content (with its related tabbed enclosures) of
the attached Intelligence Advisory Board memorandum of July 17,
1947.

Accordingly, in the interest of determining the current status,
the cumulative results, and the political ramifications of that
review, I hereby submit the following freedom-of-information
request that you photo-copy the entire contents of your
declassification-review case file on the sought-for records, and
that you send the photo-copy to me as soon as possible -- said
contents to include all CIA-generated and CIA- received records
such as as intra-/inter-agency correspondence, minutes of
meetings, records-review tasking documents, document/data-
transmittal slips (including fax-header sheets), memoranda for
record, records-review declassification SOP's, memoranda of
telephone conversations, e-mail messages, briefing
charts/outlines/talking points, legal opinions, administrative
blank-form entries, personnel-interview transcripts, mail-
address lists (including e-addresses), temporary-duty reports,
and records-storage/lending logs.

Since I make this request on behalf of the public's interest in
knowing all the behind-the-scenes activity and information
pertaining to your agency's development and processing of the
referenced case file, I ask that you waive all records-search
fees incident to your fulfillment of this request.


LARRY W. BRYANT
Director, Washington, D.C., Office of
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief of http://www.ufocity.com

Ryan S. Wood, Chief Researcher for http://www.majesticdocuments.com

P.S.: A hard-copy of this e-message-formatted letter (with its copy of
the censored IAB memo) will be snail-mailed to you shortly.







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   Jun > Jun 13

               Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:29:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:00:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked -


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:23:52 -0400

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:49:48 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked

<snip>

Robert, Steve, Listers,

The Bateman-Watts hoax started out as a practical joke but Ray
wasn't told the punch line until much later. He asked these
jokers if they would try to recover some of the images from the
AA footage that was severely damaged.

They were unable to restore the footage;  instead they staged
the hoaxed tent sequence and delivered it to Ray as the product
of their efforts.  Ray trusted them, so he accepted their story
and went on with the project until he was warned by the
cameraman that the tent sequence wasn't as he remembered.  This
raised a red flag with Ray and he withdrew the tent footage from
further consideration.  I have a copy and there is a world of
difference between it and the other AA footage.

To make matters worse, the debris segment is shot in a tent and
is sometimes confused with the hoaxed tent footage.The AA CD set
doesn't include the hoaxed footage.

I can't imagine why folks on this list wouldn't spend $15 to
purchase the AA CD set. There's a limited supply and most of the
money will go to charity.  If you are at all interested in the
Roswell mystery, this intriguing research tool is a must.

Here are the details of the offer:

The infamous Alien Autopsy film has been digitized and put on a
2 CD set. These are NOW being made available to the public.

Using included free ware, you can now view the entire UNEDITED
original film on your PC, and if you wish analyze the film frame
by frame with amazing clarity and detail.

THEN, decide for yourself if it's the real thing or a fraud.

This concludes an 18 month project where some of  the most
prominent Roswell and UFO researchers and authors in the world
have viewed this digitized version of the AA film and submitted
their reviews and opinions of the film.

The CD's also include a comprehensive analysis of the 7 known
photographs of the supposed Roswell UFO debris taken in General
Ramey's office in July 1947.

See the following Web site for details, the project's
objectives, the reviews, and how to order a copy of this 2 CD
set.

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/aaindex.html



Ed








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   Jun > Jun 13

                  Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:18:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:18:38 -0400
Subject: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware



Source: Disclosure Project

http://www.disclosureproject.org/cosmicdeception.htm


Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware

Steven M. Greer MD
Director, The Disclosure Project
http://www.disclosureproject.org

Imagine this: It is the summer of 2001, and someone presents you
with a script for a movie or book that tells how a diabolical
terrorist plot unfolds wherein both 110 story World Trade Center
towers and part of the Pentagon are destroyed by commercial jets
hijacked and flown into those structures.

Of course you would laugh, and if you were a movie mogul or book
editor, reject it out of hand as ridiculous and implausible,
even for a fictional novel or movie. After all, how could a
commercial jet, being tracked on radar after two jets had
already hit the World Trade towers, make it through our air
defenses, into the most sensitive airspace in the world, and in
broad daylight on a crystal clear day, slam into the Pentagon!
And this in a country that spends over $ 1 billion a day to
defend itself! Absurd, illogical - nobody would swallow it!

Unfortunately, there are some of us who have seen these scripts
- and of far worse things to come - and we are not laughing.

One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies it that
maybe - just maybe - people will take seriously, however
far-fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy,
para- governmental and transnational entity exists that has kept
UFOs secret - and is planning a deception and tragedy that will
dwarf the events of 9/11.

The testimony of hundreds of government, military and corporate
insiders has established this: That UFOs are real, that some are
built by our secret 'black' shadowy government projects and some
are from extraterrestrial civilizations, and that a group has
kept this secret so that the technology behind the UFO can be
withheld - until the right time. This technology can - and
eventually will - replace the need for oil, gas, coal, ionizing
nuclear power and other centralized and highly destructive
energy systems.

This 5 trillion dollar industry - energy and transportation - is
currently highly centralized, metered and lucrative. It is the
stuff that runs the entire industrialized world. It is the
mother of all special interests. It is not about money as you
and I think of it, but about geo-political power - the very
centralized power on which the current order in the world runs.
The world is kept in a state or roiling wars, endless poverty
for most of Earth's denizens and global environmental ruin, just
to prop up this evil world order.

As immense as that game is, there is a bigger one: Control
through fear. As Werner Von Braun related to Dr. Carol Rosin,
his spokesperson for the last 4 years of his life, a maniacal
machine - the military, industrial, intelligence, laboratory
complex - would go from Cold War, to Rogue Nations, to Global
Terrorism (the stage we find ourselves at today) to the ultimate
trump card: A hoaxed threat from space.

To justify eventually spending trillions of dollars on space
weapons, the world would be deceived about a threat from outer
space, thus uniting the world in fear, in militarism and in war.

Since 1992 I have seen this script unveiled to me by at least a
dozen well-placed insiders. Of course, initially I laughed,
thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched. Dr. Rosin gave
her testimony to the Disclosure Project before 9/11. And yet
others told me explicitly that things that looked like UFOs but
that are built and under the control of deeply secretive 'black'
projects, were being used to simulate - hoax - ET-appearing
events, including some abductions and cattle mutilations, to sow
the early seeds of cultural fear regarding life in outer space.
And that at some point after global terrorism, events would
unfold that would utilize the now-revealed Alien Reproduction
Vehicles (ARVs, or reversed-engineered UFOs made by humans by
studying actual ET craft - see the book 'Disclosure' by the same
author) to hoax an attack on Earth.

Like the movie Independence Day, an attempt to unite the world
through militarism would unfold using ET as the new cosmic
scapegoat (think Jews during the Third Reich).

None of this is new to me or other insiders: The report from
Iron Mountain, NY, written in the 1960s, described the need to
demonize life in outer space so we could have a new enemy. An
enemy off-planet that could unite humans (in fear and war) and
that would prove to be the ultimate prop for the trillion dollar
military-industrial complex that conservative Republican
President and five star general Eisenhower warned us about in
1961 (no one was listening then, either...).

So here is the post-9/11 script - one that will be played out
unless enough people are informed and the plan can be foiled
because they will be unable to fool a sufficient number of
citizens and leaders:

After a period of terrorism - a period during which the
detonation of nuclear devices will be threatened and possibly
actuated, thus justifying expanding the weaponization of space -
an effort will ramp up to present the public with information
about a threat from outer space. Not just asteroids hitting the
Earth, but other threats. An extraterrestrial threat.

Over the past 40 years, 'Ufology', as it is called, combined
with a mighty media machine, has increasingly demonized ETs via
fearsome movies like Independence Day, and pseudo-science that
presents alien kidnappings and abuse as a fact (in some circles)
of modern life. That some humans have had contact with ETs I
have no doubt; that the real ET contact has been subsumed in an
ocean of hoaxed accounts I am certain.

That is, real ET events are seldom reported out to the public.
The Machine ensures that the hoaxed, frightening and
intrinsically xenophobic accounts are the ones seen and read by
millions. This mental conditioning to fear ET has been subtly
reinforced for decades, in preparation for future deceptions.
Deceptions that will make 9/11 look trivial.

I write this now because I have recently been contacted by
several highly placed media and intelligence sources that have
made it clear to me that hoaxed events and story-lines are
imminent that will attempt to further ramp up the fear machine
regarding UFOs and ET s. After all, to have an enemy, you must
make the people hate and fear a person, a group of people, or in
this case an entire category of beings.

To be clear: the maniacal covert programs controlling UFO
secrecy, ARVs and related technologies - including those
technologies that can simulate ET events, ET abductions and the
like - plan to hijack Disclosure, spin it into the fire of fear,
and roll out events that will eventually present ETs as a new
enemy. Do not be deceived.

This hogwash, already the stuff of countless books, videos,
movies, documentaries and the like, will attempt to glom onto
the facts, evidence and first-hand insider testimony of The
Disclosure Project, and on its coattails, deliver to the world
the cosmic deception that falsely portrays ETs as a threat from
space. Do not be deceived.

By co-mmingling fact with fiction, and by hoaxing UFO events
that can look terrifying, the Plan is to eventually create a
new, sustainable, off-planet enemy. And who will be the wiser?

You will. Because now you know that after 60 years, trillions of
dollars and the best scientific minds in the world pressed into
action, a secretive, shadowy group - a government within the
government and at once fully outside the government as we know
it - has mastered the technologies, the art of deception and the
capability to launch an attack on Earth, and make it look like
ET s did it. In 1997, I brought a man to Washington to brief
members of Congress and others about this plan. Our entire team
at the time met this man. He had been present at planning
sessions when ARVs - things built by Lockheed, Northrup et al,
and housed in secretive locations around the world - would be
used to simulate an attack on certain assets, making leaders and
citizens alike believe that there was a threat from space, when
there is none. (Before he could testify, his handlers spirited
him away to a secret location in Virginia until the briefing was
over...) Sound familiar? Werner von Braun warned of such a hoax,
as a pretext for putting war in space. And many others have
warned of the same.

Space based weapons are already in place - part of a secret
parallel space program that has been operating since the 1960s.
ARVs are built and ready to go (see the book 'Disclosure' and
the chapter with the testimony of Mark McCandlish et al). Space
holographic deception technologies are in place, tested and
ready to fire. And the Big Media is a pawn, now taking dictation
from the right hand of the king.

I know this all sounds like science fiction. Absurd. Impossible.
Just like 9/11 would have sounded before 9/11. But the
unthinkable happened and may happen again, unless we are
vigilant.

Combine all of this with the current atmosphere of fear and
manipulation and there is a real risk of suspending our
collective judgment and our constitution.

But know this: If there was a threat from outer space, we would
have known about it as soon as humans started exploding nuclear
weapons and going into space with manned travel. That we are
still breathing the free air of Earth, given the galacticly
stupid and reckless actions of an out of control, illegal,
secret group, is abundant testimony to the restraint and
peaceful intentions of these visitors. The threat is wholly
human. And it is we who must address this threat, rein it in and
transform the current situation of war, destruction and secret
manipulation to one of true Disclosure and an era of sustained
peace.

War in space, to replace war on Earth, is not evolution, but
cosmic madness. A world thus united in fear is worse than one
divided by ignorance. It is now time for the great leap into the
future, a leap that moves us out of fear and ignorance and into
an unbroken era of universal peace. Know that this is our
destiny. And it will be ours just as soon as we choose it.

Steven M. Greer MD
Director, The Disclosure Project





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   Jun > Jun 13

                    Stanton T. Friedman - Upcoming Events

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:44:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:43:25 -0400
Subject: Stanton T. Friedman - Upcoming Events


I think members of the List may be interested in the following
two upcoming events:

1. The Art Bell Show, Tuesday night, June 18 - actually
Wednesday morning June 19, 3-6AM, Atlantic time or 2-6AM Eastern
Time - will carry 'a respectful discussion amongst colleagues'
about 'UFOs: Challenge to SETI Specialists'.

I will try to get this paper on my web site at:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

as soon as possible. The participants will be Dr. H. Paul Shuch,
Executive Director of the SETI League, and myself.

Dr. Shuch has a very impressive background in electrical
engineering as well as radioastronomy and is also interested in
SETV - The Search for ET Visitors.

Unlike many SETI Specialists, he has worked in high security
positions in the military, besides in Industry, and as a
teacher. He also has been a ham radio operator for a long time.
35 stations in Canada carry the show... on the CORUS/CHUM
Network.

2. I need to correct the time for the broadcast of the TV
Documentary 'Stanton T. Friedman IS Real!' . It will be on the
Space Channel [Canada] on Wednesday, June 19, at 7pm Eastern,
8pm Atlantic, 6pm Central, 5pm Mountain and 4pm Pacific, time.

Paul Kimball of Redstar Films Limited, in Halifax,

http://www.redstarfilm.com

Produced and Directed the one hour documentary film on location
in Irvine, California; Roswell, New Mexico; Cedar Rapids, Iowa;
and Fredericton, New Brunswick.

Also appearing in the program are Kevin Randle and Karl Pflock
and other interested parties.








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                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:33:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:46:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:36:53 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:14:07 EDT
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:07:17 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

<snip>

 >>So, what was your list, and did it include boosters?

 >No -- all the clueless alumni wisely stayed home...

<snip>

 >My list, sir, included the passage of _all_ satellites in the
 >database that had 'some' visibility even if the magnitude of
 >that visibility was as low as ten!

Did you include Kosmos-2389, launched on May 28, or the new
Chinese 2002-24B, which has the FY-1D weather satellite in an
851 x 873 km orbit, and the object that maneuvered to a lower
792 km orbit, the the HY-1 oceanography research satellite?  Or
the French Spot 5 imaging satellite launched on May 5, for that
matter, and its booster?

Just for starters.

Bob Young







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   Jun > Jun 13

                       Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:57:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:50:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Stacy


 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:14:05 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part I - Deardorff

<snip>


 >However, most of my website is devoted to analysis of the Talmud
 >Jmmanuel document that Billy Meier and another discovered in
 >1963. It is of more lasting importance than his UFO photos and
 >films, as it is shown to have been the source for the first
 >gospel of the New Testament.


Jim,

You are one seriously self-deluded dude.

Right up there with Steven Greer.

Dennis Stacy








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                  Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hebert

From: A. Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:12:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:50:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hebert


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:41:17 +1000
 >Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >I have been playing with the pic, here's a negative image >with emboss &
trace using Paintshop Pro.

 >http://www.cairns.net.au/~tims/LAufo1942negEMBOSStrace.jpg

 >It certainly seems to fit the classic saucer profile and no
 >hard edges are detected. Interesting!

Hi, Dave:

Excellent work!

However, in examining the image, I noticed the outline of the
combined search beams also match the outline of the alleged
'saucer'. If you expand the outline of the 'saucer' out, you
will see that it has approximately the same design as the
merging search beams.

I can't help but wonder if the 'saucer' outline may be due to
some type of illumination effect caused by the search beams when
they came together at one spot in the sky rather than reflecting
the shape of the actual object.....


A. Hebert








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                        Re: Secrecy News -- 06/12/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:45:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:53:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 06/12/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 51
June 12, 2002


**      FAS SUES FOR DISCLOSURE OF 2002 INTELLIGENCE BUDGET
**      CRS REPORTS
**      SECRECY IN THE NEWS


FAS SUES FOR DISCLOSURE OF 2002 INTELLIGENCE BUDGET

The Federation of American Scientists filed suit today against
the Central Intelligence Agency, seeking declassification and
disclosure of the intelligence budget total for 2002.

"Arbitrary and obsolete restrictions on the flow of information
have degraded the performance of U.S. intelligence, to the
detriment of American security," according to the FAS lawsuit.
  "Independent review and adjudication of such restrictions can
help to correct deficiencies in U.S. intelligence."

In 1997 and 1998, in response to Freedom of Information Act
challenges, the CIA disclosed the budget totals for those years
($26.6 billion and $26.7 billion respectively).  But the Agency
has refused since then to declassify any additional budget
information.

Today, CIA officials even make the obviously false claim that
disclosure of the intelligence budget totals from 1947 and 1948
would cause damage to national security and compromise
intelligence sources and methods. This purely historical data is
the subject of a separate lawsuit, filed last December.

Both Rep. Porter Goss and Sen. Bob Graham, the chairmen of the
congressional intelligence committees, have expressed verbal
support for annual disclosure of the intelligence budget totals.
  But since assuming the chairmanship, neither they nor their
committees have acted on this professed support.

The text of the new lawsuit, brought under the Freedom of
Information Act and filed on June 12, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002int.html


CRS REPORTS

The Congressional Research Service has released or updated a
number of noteworthy reports lately, including the following:

"Military Transformation: Intelligence, Surveillance and
Reconnaissance," by Judy G. Chizek, updated May 31, 2002:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31425.pdf

"Fair Use on the Internet," by Christopher Alan Jennings, dated
May 21, 2002:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31423.pdf

"Terrorism, the Future, and U.S. Foreign Policy," by Rensselaer
Leer and Raphael Perl, updated May 30, 2002:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/IB95112.pdf


SECRECY IN THE NEWS

"As the Pentagon boosts spending and intensifies development of
a national antimissile system, it is also taking steps to shield
the program from Congress and the public as well as traditional
oversight measures within the Defense Department."  See "Secrecy
on Missile Defense Grows," by Bradley Graham in the June 12
Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34643-2002Jun11.html

"Secret FBI files show how the Bureau's covert 1960s campaign to
disrupt the Free Speech Movement and topple UC President Clark
Kerr helped launch the political career of an actor named Ronald
Reagan."  See "Reagan, Hoover, and the UC Red Scare," by Seth
Rosenfeld in the June 9 San Francisco Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/campus/

The potentially conflicting interests in combating terrorism and
upholding constitutional values, highlighted by the treatment of
suspected "dirty bomber" Abdullah al Muhajir, were neatly
captured in a June 11 Washington Post editorial entitled
"Detaining Americans":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28730-2002Jun10.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message:

subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                  Astro-physicist Presents SETV Hypothesis

From: Christoffer Walther <cw@r00t.dk>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:07:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:55:28 -0400
Subject: Astro-physicist Presents SETV Hypothesis


Massimo Teodorani, Ph.D. Astrophycisist presents a brief SETV
(Search for Extra-Terrestrial Visitation) hypothesis :

http://www.zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/Docs/EuroSETI2002_OSI.htm

Teodorani was also the driving force behind the EMBLA missions
in Hessdalen. This year he and his team will return again to
Hessdalen, Norway, doing an EMBLA 2002 field expedition, in
order to do further optical measurements of the anomalous light
and structured craft phenomena. Also, this year they will bring
portable radar equipment, in order to confirm the connection
between the 'hessdalen' phenomena and the anomalous VLF-ELF
radio signals recorded in the valley.

The EMBLA team will, like the previous years, consists of
astrophycists, electronic phycisists and informatic engineers.

More information:

http://www.earthfiles.com/earth301.htm
http://www.itacomm.net/PH/
http://hessdalen.hiof.no

Christoffer Walther








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:01:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:19:52 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:21:58 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 05:13:27 -0400
 >>>Subject: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

<snip>

 >>Kudos on an excellent letter and a brilliant idea. It's about time.
 >>Saturday night on SDI one of the callers raised the question of
 >>the US government's liabilities should they ever admit to having
 >>had full knowledge of the UFO phenomenon all along.

 >>I commented that one of the first things that would happen would
 >>be a flurry of litigation. Not just from families like the
 >>Mantell's who actually lost a loved one and were never told the
 >>truth, but from each and every citizen they impotently _allowed_
 >>to be repeatedly abducted and traumatized.

 >>Well written Larry. Great idea. Good work.

 >"Not just from families like the Mantell's who actually lost a
 >loved one and were never told the  truth,..."

 >You got my juices flowing. Could you elaborate on this
 >statement. Did I miss something about the Mantell case? I
 >thought I'd covered it thoroughly.


Hi Don,

My statement about the Mantell family is based on two programs
(sorry I don't recall the title of one of them) where the
Mantell family was assembled and interviewed regarding the death
of their son/brother, etc. They expressed their anger over the
Air Force's handling of the case and they expressed their own
belief that the AF was 'covering something up' in regard to the
crash. ie; lying to them about it.

The second program is a documentary that was made in 1956 called
'UFO - The True Story Of Flying Saucers' where they re-enacted
the whole incident using the _testimony_ of the men who were in
the tower at the time as 'dialog'. Kevin Randle says the object
in question was later found to be a "balloon", but that
contradicts the observations and testimony of the tower
personnel who were actually _there_ (present) when the incident
took place.

They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.

And... everyone should get their mitts on a copy of the 1956
documentary, 'UFO - The True Story Of Flying Saucers'. All of
the early (major) UFO cases are reported. Including detailed
reporting on the overflight of the nation's capitol by several
UFOs on two sequential week-ends in 1952.

The report is taken directly from the testimony of Albert Chop
who was the Pentagon's media spokesman at the time. Truly
fascinating and compelling testimony from a man that started out
as a hard core skeptic of the whole UFO phenomenon.

The video is available through MGM Home Video for about $14.00
US funds. If you treat yourself to _any_ UFO videos make sure
you include this one.


Regards,

John Velez








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   Jun > Jun 14

                     More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:20:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:56:19 -0400
Subject: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt


Source: Alan Boyle's 'Cosmic Log' on MSNBC,

http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?cp1=3D1

Go to the page for audio link and photo of the debased Kreskin!

Stig

***

LATEST UPDATES

<snip>

**

June 7, 2002 / 8 p.m. ET

Not so amazing: The mentalist known as the Amazing Kreskin
predicted months ago that one of the world's biggest UFO
sightings would take place in Nevada by the end of June =97 and
promised to donate $50,000 to charity if the prediction failed.
This week, he decided Thursday night was the night, and so
hundreds of people turned out to watch the skies in the Nevada
desert near where Kreskin was doing his casino show.

You can probably already guess that the fleet of flying  saucers
did not land, and that Kreskin is nevertheless keeping his
money. On Friday, he told me in a phone interview that his stunt
was aimed at pointing out "an avenue of terrorism that hadn't
been thought about ... psychological techniques."

The way Kreskin tells it, the episode illustrates how someone
with ulterior motives could plant the seeds of panic merely by
suggesting that some catastrophic event would occur.

"We amassed a crowd last night... I took about a thousand
witnesses. Literally using the power of suggestion, I created
such an expectancy that 41 people very strongly hallucinated
UFOs in the sky," he told me. You can hear him explain it
himself in this audio clip [link] from KVBC-TV in Las Vegas.

Kreskin also said that a TV crew caught a glimpse of a greenish
glow in the sky just after 11 p.m. =97 and although he doesn=92t think
the glow marked an alien visitation, he nonetheless claims that
the glimpse could qualify as "the largest sighting in history,
because thousands of people saw it on TV."

The bottom line is that Kreskin believes he delivered on his
self- fulfilling prophecy, even though there was nothing
substantial to the "sightings."

"I think I keep my money, and I'll be able to eat," he said.
Note to self: Watch out for the fine print when you're betting
against the Amazing Kreskin. What do you think? [Link]

<snip>

=A9 2002








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                 Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:52:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:20:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Maccabee


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:41:17 +1000
 >Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic


 >I have been playing with the pic, here's a negative image with
 >emboss & trace using Paintshop Pro.

 >http://www.cairns.net.au/~tims/LAufo1942negEMBOSStrace.jpg

 >It certainly seems to fit the classic saucer profile and no hard
 >edges are detected. Interesting!

This is nice, but what we really need is a good print from the
files of the newspaper to work with.









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             Re: Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:14:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:23:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles - Lehmberg


 >From: Duncan Ives Lewis <iveslewis@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Grand Betrayal Of Science Principles

 >Originally posted to 'Whispers' by Ives Lewis
 >Tuesday, 11 June 2002, at 5:02 p.m.

http://www.junjun.com/cgi-bin/boards/whispers/config.pl?read=3D32786

 >Blinded by "Science"

Blinded by "Science" -- as a conscious choice, worse.

 >Have you ever participated in a discussion and realized that
 >there was a fundamental flaw in another's position, but could
 >not quite put your finger on it?

Yes, sir. That and very occasionally not only being able to
place a finger on it but grasp the flaw by its slimy little neck
and drag it kicking and screaming to the table for the same kind
of desection that would be performed upon it were the error to
be found with regard to _my_ invention or position. The
skeptibunkies insist that they can competently wield a sword
that they will pretend does not cut both ways. You speak to this
very well in this paper.

 >Recent discussions with
 >debunkers have me thinking about their positions on UFOs -
 >particularly one post, not written by a debunker, that included
 >the following statement:

 >"There are two avenues of scientific research, and both are
 >necessary to gain any level of advancement in science. They are
 >empirical and speculative. And, for some reason, the skeptics,
 >as well as many believers, leave out the speculative end of
 >research."

I think that's because they are quite comfortable where they
are: with work that they think is _done_, and with laurels they
think they can _rest_ on. That's why the vaster amount of
funerals are only an improvement to the species.

 >It was an excellent point. Moreover, I realized something. Most
 >of us here in the 'believer' category (I hate the label) have
 >accepted and even valued much of the work of the debunkers,
 >recognizing the contribution made by weeding out the weaker
 >cases.

Well yeah -- but on another level they are _still_ egregiously
dishonorable because it is just that kind of case (the weaker
one) they give all their attention to. Like an ambitious
district attorney keen to avoid the hard to win, unpleasant, or
unpopular cases to enhance a good conviction rate, the SB's
avoid the really interesting cases like a plague.

 >On one level, it would appear that we all have the same
 >goal of finding truth. Not to pick on Oberg, but in thinking
 >back on his posts, I've yet to see him acknowledge any factors
 >in any cases that would support the ETH.

That _is_ a sticky point, isn't it. Don't admit (or
acknowledge) that which you don't have the competence to debate.
  I guess that's why Stanton Friedman wins all _his_. <no little
grinny thing>

 >Where is the
 >willingness to speculate based on the available evidence?

What is the evidence that it will disrupt the status quo or
invalidate the mainstream? That's where the willingness is
throttled as a babe in arms!

 >One
 >example of this curious absence is his response to the 1967
 >Malmstrom incident. I cannot quote him from memory. But to me,
 >the substance of his response was rather impatient: 'yes yes,
an
 >unexplained case that deserves to be investigated,' and so on
 >and so forth.

"...but how about that Mets and Braves game?" he would deftly
change the subject, thinking "hoo-boy... don't wanna go
_there_..."

 >No acknowledgement whatsoever of the behavioral
 >aspects of the case which pointed away from some kind of random
 >prosaic event. No willingness to speculate on the basis of
 >evidence that literally jumps from the case.

 >Why?

There _is_ a reason, though, even if it is difficult to parse
out and may _remain_ unknown.

 >The best debaters concede points to their opponents when the
 >point is won. The refusal on the part of Oberg and others to
 >ever concede behavioral or observational characteristics that
 >suggest anything other than a prosaic explanation is
suspicious.

In extremis!

 >Dictionary.com gives the following definition to the
"scientific
 >method":

Oh they hate _this_... be prepared to have your arguement
completely ignored and your character attacked.

 >"The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
 >demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for
 >scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of
 >phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the
 >phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness
 >of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies
 >the hypothesis."

It just comes right out and almost says it doesn't it? That is,
"Go where the data leads..."

 >I see that the phrase "observation of phenomena" is included.
 >The debunker viewpoint seems to put blinders on for the most
 >obvious, intriguing behavioral aspects of incidents such as
 >Malmstrom. It appears to be a deliberate effort not just to give
 >such factors negligible importance, but to disregard them
 >entirely.

If _you_ don't signify, you don't _have_ to qualify!

 >Instead, time is spent promoting unidentified prosaic
 >explanations that offer nothing to the debate except dead
 >weight. This is then masqueraded as a scientific approach, and
 >those of us who question this are treated condescendingly.

Seems... insane, doesn't it?

 >If we contrast those actual practices to the ideals of the
 >scientific method as defined, we find they are inconsistent in
 >the most fundamental ways possible.

You _have_ to do it, make your denial _at_ the most fundamental
level, to get that SB ruse to work. If they take one step, make
just _one_ admission... they a slipping down a terrifying slope.
I read it written here before. The SB has to be _right_ about
every _one_ of their proclamations, ordinations, conjectures,
and pontifications. His antithesis has to be right about just
one... Is it any _wonder_ that they hang on so assiduously...

 >The debunker method does not
 >only involve observation of phenomena; it also involves
 >disregarding factors inconsistent with a preconceived final
 >position.

Right! Deny, deny, deny from the outset. Don't _take_ that first
step.

 >It does not involve the formulation of a hypothesis
 >concerning the phenomena; it instead involves the promotion of
 >unidentified prosaic explanations consistent with the
 >preconceived final position.

Yes.

 >And while the debunkers have
 >shouted shrilly their criticism that experimentation is not
 >possible to test the ETH hypothesis, their failure to even name
 >their proposed prosaic explanations, exemplified by Oberg's
 >failure to do so in Malmstrom, marks the ultimate hypocrisy. How
 >can an unidentified theory be tested?

How can one look for something the mainstream gives every other
indication is _not_ there? The agendas of some make hypocrisy
no problem at all, as long as the ends are being met, the means
are immaterial.

 >This can only be defined as a grand betrayal of the fundamental
 >guiding principles of science.

...Forgetting the grand betrayals of fundamental guiding
principles of other things as well... UFOs likely tie all of
them together. There _are_ "-other- people" across the "river"
and the impetus of the mainstream would have us pretend they are
not there. But damn -- we keep seeing the smoke of their
campfires...

Good post, sir, ime... I predict you will _not_ be debated.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 14

                 Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:05:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:07:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:33:16 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:36:53 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:14:07 EDT
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:07:17 -0500
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 ><snip>

 >>>So, what was your list, and did it include boosters?

 >>No -- all the clueless alumni wisely stayed home...

 ><snip>

 >>My list, sir, included the passage of _all_ satellites in the
 >>database that had 'some' visibility even if the magnitude of
 >>that visibility was as low as ten!

 >Did you include Kosmos-2389, launched on May 28, or the new
 >Chinese 2002-24B, which has the FY-1D weather satellite in an
 >851 x 873 km orbit, and the object that maneuvered to a lower
 >792 km orbit, the the HY-1 oceanography research satellite? Or
 >the French Spot 5 imaging satellite launched on May 5, for that
 >matter, and its booster?

Grasp furiously at your straws, Mr. Young. Furiously prosecute
the box-like interior of your world view. But I'm astonished
that you can't fathom that there _might_ be something else in
space when _our_ meager little fabrication is so microscopically
tiny, and everything else is so flippingly -gonzo- huge.

You see, as I'd otherwise read here on UpDates, you have to be
'right' about _every_ one of yours, I only have to be right
about _one_ of mine. I am much easier to vindicate, while you
are much easier, as a result of your absolute and almost
insentient rigidity, to dismiss.

 >Just for starters.

...There'll be no end to _you_, Mr. Young. You are Yeats'
worst, in my estimation, busily passionate while the isolated
best must lose all conviction.

What? No "Nyuk, nyuks"? ...And sorry about the misspelling on
my last post -- I meant "CSICOP" <Center for the Silly and
Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Jun > Jun 14

               Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:25:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:10:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware -


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Source: Disclosure Project

 >http://www.disclosureproject.org/cosmicdeception.htm

Hi All,

Bloody Hell!

If this post had consisted solely of the following:

 >Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware (of)

 >Steven M. Greer MD

... it would have been a lot more accurate than what was
released for public consumption.


John Velez
(Speaking strictly for myself)








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:54:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:12:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

<snip>

 >They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
 >take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
 >in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
 >I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
 >family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
 >help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
 >interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.

I believe that was an early episode of 'Sightings'. I believe
they went back to the crash site and actually located some small
metallic pieces of the aircraft that had been missed by the
military many years earlier. If someone has the Sightings
publication on UFO subjects, the Mantell case may be one of the
featured items.


Steve








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   Jun > Jun 14

                     Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast

From: Elaine Tassin <ETisHome@lawired.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:08:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:32:53 -0400
Subject: Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast


Hi everyone...

This is my first time posting, although I have been reading for
awhile. Thanks for keeping me informed on what's going on "out
there". Now I can do likewise.

A silver orb washes up on  along Isle of Palms,
South Carolina coast, June 13th, 2002.

-----

[Report inserted by ebk]

Source: NewNet5.Com

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/1510728/detail.html



'Unidentified Floating Object' Washes Up On Beach
South Carolina Coast Residents Find Silver Orb

POSTED: 10:37 a.m. EDT June 13, 2002
UPDATED: 10:55 a.m. EDT June 13, 2002

ISLE OF PALMS, S.C. -- Officials in a South Carolina beach town
said that they are puzzled by a giant silver orb that washed up
on shore this week.

The smooth, metallic ball is about 3 feet in diameter and
weighed several hundred pounds.

There are numbers on the surface, but no other clues.

Police, firefighters, an Air Force bomb squad, the Coast Guard
and the state Department of Health and Environmental Control all
examined the orb on Wednesday, but none could identify it.

Officials contacted NASA and the National Weather Service, but
none claimed ownership.

Isle of Palms Fire Chief Ann Graham says officials are calling
it a UFO, "unidentified floating object."

Isle of Palms is on the Atlantic Ocean, just north of
Charleston, S.C.

Marie Segneri said that the ball washed up in front of her
rented beach house Monday night.

The Tampa, Fla., woman said that the ball appeared to have been
at sea for some time.

Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
redistributed.


-----


The original ET,
Elaine Tassin









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              History Channel's 'Roswell: Final Disinformation'

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:50:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:23:02 -0400
Subject: History Channel's 'Roswell: Final Disinformation'


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines. I have just finished
watching, 'Roswell: Final Declassification'. It would appear the
History Channel has been getting some pressure for its airing of
many hours of UFO/ET documentaries, most of which are quite
good.

Now we have this. I hope the researchers on this List will take
this documentary apart piece by piece as quickly as possible and
post their views far and wide.

I am deeply suspicious of the sudden availability of the "new
archive material" and the timing of its release.

Regards,
Stephen Bassett
  __________________________________________________

   Paradigm Research Group
   URL: www.paradigmclock.com
   E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
   Phone: 301-990-4290
   Fax: 301-990-0199
   4938 Hampden Lane, #161
   Bethesda, Maryland 20814
  __________________________________________________

  Spread the word about X-PPAC & the politics of disclosure.
   Contribute online at: www.x-ppac.org
  or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814
  __________________________________________________

  "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
  if you are willing to give away the credit."








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                            Last Night's Tragedy

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:23:58 -0400
Subject: Last Night's Tragedy


Good Morning, All -

I am violating one of the rules that Jerry Clark has laid down,
which is never write a letter in anger... well, write, but don't
send it until you have a chance to calm down. Sage advise that I
normally take.

But last night...

The Anti-History Channel...

Really...

I only watched the first few minutes, as they talked about
exclusive access to recently declassified top secret
documents...

Well, no. There was nothing in those boxes that had ever been
classified as top secret. They hadn't been recently declassified
and their access wasn't exclusive. In fact, this whole thing is
my fault. I had been chasing these documents for five years (and
I have the various letters to prove it), and I was the one who
told NARA they had the material. Someone working at NARA called
the producers after NARA began to index the material because I
wanted to see it. Anyone who knew it was there could have seen
it.

And the exclusive, classified tape of Gerald Anderson...

Really.

I'm sure that FUFOR recognized it because it was part of their
project to video tape all the Roswell witnesses. I know that
part of that tape was used in Russ Este's documentary, Roswell
Remembered. He arranged with FUFOR to use part of it.

So, I gave up watching it and decided to vent my anger here.
I'll bet Karl could pick apart everything that was wrong with
this show. And I don't know why I listen to what producers say.
I stood in a green room for one of the talk shows and heard one
of the other pro-UFO witnesses (an abductee) ask if Phil Klass
was going to be on the show and the producer said, No. She had
to know that Klass was in the building. I got even with her by
saying that none of us was going to go on. She turned white, but
we did go on. Maybe we all should have walked.

So now I feel a little better and report that I did get a trip
to Washington, D.C. out of it, and I did get to go through the
boxes without having to spend my own money to get there to do
it. I'm glad because there was nothing in those boxes that
provided any enlightenment about the Roswell case.

KRandle







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                     Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:25:30 -0400
Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb


Source: The Post and Courier (Charleston, South Carolina),

http://www.charleston.net/pub/news/local/13sphere.htm

Stig

***

Mystery shrouds IOP's floating orb

**

Thursday, June 13, 2002

BY GLENN SMITH
Of The Post and Courier Staff

*

ISLE OF PALMS - When a giant silver orb washed up in front of
her rented beach house Monday night, Marie Segneri wondered for
a moment if aliens had landed in the middle of her family
reunion.

The smooth, metallic ball was at least 3 feet in diameter and
weighed a couple hundred pounds or more. Aside from a series of
numbers stamped on its slightly dimpled surface, the sphere
offered few clues as to its origin.

"It looked like it may have been in the sea for awhile, but we
just had no idea what it was," said Segneri, a vacationer from
Tampa, Fla.

Segneri's family wasn't alone. A parade of authorities from
local, state and federal agencies examined the odd ball
Wednesday. All came away scratching their heads.

"Strange," said Isle of Palms Fire Chief Ann Graham, shaking her
head. "We're calling it a UFO - an unidentified floating
object."

Two Segneri family members first spotted the sphere Monday
afternoon when the sun glinted off its surface as it bobbed in
the ocean. Thinking it was giant beach ball or a stray buoy,
they swam out to grab it.

"We tried to push it toward shore, but it was just too heavy,
and we had to let it go," said Tony Segneri, Marie's nephew.

The ocean eventually coughed up the ball later that day. Someone
called authorities about the sphere, and the town sent a
firefighter to investigate. A decision was made to leave it
there and take another look when the sun was up. But when
firefighters returned, it was gone.

That's because Segneri stumbled across the silver sphere while
walking along the beach that night with her nieces and nephews.
Concerned that it was a hazard to children, her relatives pushed
the sphere up a ramp from the beach and deposited it in the
dunes in front of their Ocean Boulevard house, where it became
something of a curious lawn ornament.

"We just didn't know what to do with it," she said.

Unable to determine what it is was and tired of looking at it,
the family called police Wednesday. In no time, the area was
roped off with yellow tape and official- looking people were
crawling all over the sphere.

The Segneris had planned to spend the day visiting local sights,
but instead cracked sodas and pulled up lawn chairs to watch the
action from their back porch. In the course of the afternoon,
police, firefighters, the Air Force bomb squad, Coast Guard
personnel and an inspector from the state Department of Health
and Environmental Control came to examine the orb, which was
parked on the ground beside a barbecue grill.

Various people poked, rubbed, studied and photographed it. They
contacted agencies such as NASA and the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration, but no one claimed ownership.

The Coast Guard's best guess was that the sphere was some sort
of flotation device used in a dredging operation. But the ball
had no hooks or clamps where a line might be attached to hold it
in place, Graham said.

Finally, at about 4 p.m., crews hauled the sphere to the town's
public works department for safe keeping. In the process, the
orb cracked in half along a seam. No little green men came out,
just some old seawater.

"There was nothing green, nothing glowing," Graham said. "It
will probably just go to the scrap yard."

*

Glenn Smith covers police and crime. Contact him at 937-5556 or
at gsmith@postandcourier.com.

Copyright =A9 2002 Charleston.Net. All Rights Reserved.







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   Jun > Jun 14

               Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:01:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:56:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware -



 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Source: Disclosure Project

 >http://www.disclosureproject.org/cosmicdeception.htm

 >Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware

 >Steven M. Greer MD
 >Director, The Disclosure Project
 >http://www.disclosureproject.org

 >I

<snip>

My fellow Listerions,

Please help me. I've just emerged from an altered state. I don't
think I was abducted, other than periodically having my stomach
being abducted by my refrigerator. It was a strange dream,
strange as a bad dream. I was being infected with someon else's
nightmare. It was eerie and murky, a paranoid screed, the
ultimate hoax.

It was a bizarre combination of footage from the classic film
The Day The Earth Stood Still but alongside the saucer on the
grass on the mall in Washington, D.C. stood Stephen Greer, a
bible in his left hand and a stone tablet that said Disclosure
or We All Die on it.

The scary part was that behind him and uphill stood The Counsel
for Disclosure, good ol' Danny Sheehan, his eyes glowing red and
peeing on a Bush. They were intensely yelling at me that they
had the prophecies from trusted "insiders", whisper sources who
know the truth, the terrible tragedy that the secret government
will perpetrate.

They told me that most people are entirely ignorant of this and
yelled at me to not be one of those ignorant pawns of the secret
evil. I asked him for the sources of his contention. I never saw
them because next I suddenly woke up from this maddening
nightmare. This has been typed out immediately after that bad
dream let go of me. Some of you may have had this dream infest
you already. It is more terminal than aids. RESIST AT ALL COSTS!


 >One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies it that
 >maybe - just maybe - people will take seriously, however
 >far-fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy,
 >para- governmental and transnational entity exists that has kept
 >UFOs secret - and is planning a deception and tragedy that will
 >dwarf the events of 9/11.

<snip>

 >Steven M. Greer MD
 >Director, The Disclosure Project
 >Albemarle County Virginia
 >June, 2002

 >http://www.disclosureproject.org

As soon as I came back to my normal semi-altered state I had to
let you know my experience, as a warning for your soul. If this
is a mass infestation of a massive mind control hoax, then Greer
and Sheehan are terminal and falling off the edge. Are they
"goners" and over the edge

Now I'm getting a deja vu, a flashback. I may have been foretold
of this back in the 1970s. That was when I visited my psychotic
distant cousin at an institute. An "insider", another patient,
whispered something to me, some tale about just the above
scenario happening in the future. I could not focus on what he
was saying due to my cousin's outbursts and the "insider's"
garbled whisper. On top of that, what I heard sounded ludicrous.
But what do I know? I'm not an "insider".

What a horrible dream. I must exercise my speculative side of my
brain in a better way.  My refrigerator is trying to abduct my
stomach again. As soon as I get back from making a deal with the
alien frig I'll start checking if anyone else had this weird
dream invasion.


Food for thought requires a good snack first,

Josh









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   Jun > Jun 14

              Interview with Discoverer of 'Map of the Creator'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:23:08 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:59:45 -0400
Subject: Interview with Discoverer of 'Map of the Creator'


Source: Pravda

http://english.pravda.ru/chuvirov.html

Stig

***

PRAVDA.Ru will hold a press-conference on June 6 with Doctor of
physics and mathematics, professor of the State University of
Bashkiria, Alexander Chuvyrov.

This scientist found the infallible proof about the existence of
the ancient highly-developed civilization. He found a huge stone
slab, which was 120 million years old, with a relief map of the
Ural region on it.

Photos [link]

Read the article about it:
MAP OF "THE CREATOR" [link]

3-D MAP OF THE EARTH CREATED MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO [link]

ON-LINEPRESS CONFERENCE OF ALEXANDR CHUVYROV [link]

***

Pravda.RU: on-line

16:20
PRAVDA.Ru, Moscow

Good afternoon, Alexandr Nikolaevich!

We are glad to see you in our office. We would like to notice
that the material about your find was read by at least 500
thousand readers of both English and Russian versions of our
edition.

Already before the conference, there were about 60 questions, so
taking into account the time limits, you should manage to answer
as more questions as possible. Let us begin.

C: Thank you for the possibility to tell about my find. I on
myself could judge about the number of people who have read the
publications. Just after they were published, correspondents of
foreign TV channels and of different editions started to call
me. And I am thankful for this, too, because you have drawn
attention of world information agencies to my discovery. I would
try to give short answers to answer to all readers. And
afterwards, I would prepare more detailed answers.


16:37
Novosibirsk

Dear Professor, and what about the Charles Darwin theory? Or
probably the age of anthropoid apes is in actual fact much
older? Could, for example, a conclusion be made basing on your
find that people lived already in the epoch of dinosaurs?

C: Unfortunately, I have never asked myself about the possible
creator of the slab covered with the map. My task was simple: I
had to investigate the found object and to describe it, to
investigate materials of which the slab was made and to try to
answer the question about the object's age.


16:49
a.ildar@au.ru

In what region was the slab found? Is it far from the described
territory? Are there any surmises about where the other slabs
could be? Probably, if other slabs are found, the question about
Athlantida will be answered?

C: The slab was found at a distance of 120 km from the city of
Ufa, in Chandar settlement. Today, we can speak about location
of five more slabs, while raising of them needs additional
financing. As for the Athlantida, I am not a specialist on this
field.


Sir,
Dino Pogodin, San Paolo (Brazil)

Are there any publication about the find in international
scientific magazines? If there are some, so where? And what was
foreign scientists' reaction to your find?

C: Unfortunately, there are only publications in Russian-
language magazines, for example in Prirodnye Resursy, number 12,
for the year 1999. Though, many foreign scientists have
addressed to my through the Internet, offering co-operation. The
work has been just started.


17:10
Los Angeles

What made you to carry out searches namely in that place and at
that depth? Why did you suppose that this would be namely the
first slab of the 200 as if making up the whole map? And why
namely that piece of the map was found which presents the region?
Why no more slab was found? Do you completely exclude the
possibility of a forgery?

C: There are special methods to identify places according to
maps, for example, through hydrological situation, to be more
exact, through identifying rivers, lakes etc. This could be also
done through certain characteristics of relief, for example,
through mountains, vales etc. There are computer methods which
allow to do it very fast. On the other hand, changes of relief
are well known, which took place over latest millions of years,
there are special computer programmes allowing to modulate these
processes. These methods were used in our work. As for the full
number of the slabs, I consider information to be true about
archaelogical finds from 1921. There is information about six
slabs, so we will speak about these six slabs.


17:17
St Petersburg

Has your find some links with today's views on appearance of our
civilization?

C: I repeat it one more time: I do not occupy myself with
civilizations' appearance or disappearance. I only investigate
the object and its characteristics and present results of my
investigation. There are many things I cannot explain. If you
have some explanations, please, present them.


17:10
Los Angeles

What made you carry out searches namely in that place and at
that depth? Why did you suppose that this would be namely the
first slab of the 200 as if making up the whole map? And why
namely that piece of the map was found which presents the
region? Why no more slab was found? Do you completely exclude
the possibility of a forgery?

C: There are special methods to identify places according to
maps, for example, through hydrological situation, to be more
exact, through identifying rivers, lakes etc. This could be also
done through certain characteristics of relief, for example,
through mountains, vales etc. There are computer methods which
allow to do it very fast. On the other hand, changes of relief
are well known, which took place over latest millions of years,
there are special computer programmes allowing to modulate these
processes. These methods were used in our work. As for the full
number of the slabs, I consider information to be true about
archaelogical finds from 1921. There is information about six
slabs, so we will speak about these six slabs.


17:36
Norilsk

Where could I find the slab's picture, and if possible, of high
quality?

C: In the nearest future, PRAVDA.Ru will publish a series of
photographs. You could work with them.


17:38
Vadim Surikov, Harbin, China

Good afternoon, Professor!

Do you know something about views on this question of Yelena
Blavatskaya (the author of The Secret Doctrine) or of somebody
of her associates? What do you think about theosophy ideas?

I am not interested in theosophy. The greatest specialist in
theosophy is Mrs Huang Hung, my post-graduate student from
China. I am not a religious person. The title The Map of the
Creator is just a collective notion.


17:50
Rudolf and Vladimir, Moscow

Dear Mr Chuvyrov!

Several questions to you.

1. Which methods did you use to determine the age of the slab
you have found?

2. Who were that scientists who investigated the slab?

3. As a matter of fact, this slab is not an ordinary scientific
sensation, but a serious material proof of how little we know
about our planed. If possible, could you appraise in percent the
level of journalistic distortion of information about the slab
published by PRAVDA.Ru. Thank you.

A special commission worked at the problem. Therefore, this is a
result of many people's work. At the same time, there are
delicate questions: for example, the questions about the
inscription, about materials of what the slab was produced,
about the map on the slab. On these questions, we had
consultations with the Chinese. As for journalists, we should
not criticize them, because their aim is to present some
information to average readers, without burdening them with some
scientific theories.


18:09
Ostroukhov Nikolay

Dear Alexander, our institute developed a geo-radar that can
search for foreign bodies at the depth of up to 50 meters under
the ground and at the depth of up to 100 meters under the ice
and fresh water. This radar is currently manufactured. Let's
discuss the opportunities for our equipment to search for other
fragments.

Please call (347) 2286278


18:18
Sergey

1. Can I find any photographs of the stone on the net?

2. What is it that the stone is made of? Isn't the material too
primitive?

3. Was the stone painted, like modern relief maps?

4. Were there any traces to indicate some kind of automation,
for example lamp lights, wire traces or anything like that?

5. What do you think is the stone meant for?


C: There can be lots of materials made up, but they chose that
method, there was such a technology, apparently. The fact that
the map consists of three layers, is identified with bad quality
of the base layer, that is why they used geopsid glass of high
microhardness indication. I cannot answer questions number three
and four


18:22
Ivan

This is just a cracky stone and you made God knows what out of
it.

C: Unfortunately, no one had enough fantasy to suppose a thing
like that.


18:30
Alma-Ata

1. Will the search continue to find more stones with relief
maps?

2. If there are new slabs found, will it prove that there were
highly-developed civilizations on the planet that most likely
left other traces of their existence on Earth and in the Solar
system?

3. What struck you most in your discovery and what are your
subjective ideas that you have not shared yet with the readers?

C: The stone itself struck me most. The location of five other
stones is known and if there are enough funds assigned for the
works, then they will be retrieved and exhibited in museums. The
slabs are located in different settlements of the Nurimansky
region of the republic of Bashkiria. The question pertaining to
highly-developed civilizations is outside my competence. A
special international committee is supposed to answer this
question after five other slabs are found. Are there any more
slabs? It is an important and interesting question, but it is
for the next generation.


18:33
Sergey Sokolov, Moscow

Dear Professor Chuvyrov,

I would like to get more detailed information about the
inscriptions on the map. Is there a photograph or an URL, where
I could see that?

C: The photographs are going to be published on PRAVDA.Ru very
soon


18:45
Igor Danilov, St.Petersburg

Could you please explain in simple language the way how the age
of the stone lump and of the map was identified? How do you
distinguish those things? What proves in your discovery that the
civilization was a highly-developed one? The way that the map was
done, or is there any other evidence?

C: This is not a lump, it is an artificial slab, and the relief
map was done artificially too. Unfortunately, there is only an
indirect way to identify the age of the map - paleontological or
paleomagnetic method. Unfortunately, the uranic, or the argon
methods can identify only the absolute age of the rock that was
not used in the material of the map. The fact that the
civilization was a highly-developed one can be proved with the
absence of a 3-D map of the world nowadays. Another thing that
can prove it is the knowledge of the written language and of the
physical and mathematical laws.


18:54
Irina

Has the place changed a lot since the moment, when the map was
done?

C: Of course, it has, but the Ural region is a quite place
seismically, that is why the area wasp lace due to erosion. One
of the whole, the territory has not really changed for millions
of year. NASA is working on the program to create 3D maps and
you can become familiar with the results on their site.


19:08
Ivan

Hello, Professor,

After the information about your sensational discovery was
published on the Internet, you became a famous person. You must
be receiving a lot of letters, journalists must be getting in
long lines to interview you?

C: No, I have not yet had those things. I do not have much time
to answer all letters, this is hard work, I quit my job a month
ago and now I am working with my epistolary genre. Thank you!


19:34
Vasily

Did you receive a grand reaction to your discovery?

C: They wrote a lot about it. The articles about the map
appeared in such Russian newspapers as Komsomolskaya Pravda,
Izvestia, Argumenty I Fakty, there were television programs. But
when PRAVDA.Ru wrote about the discovery, I received tons of e-
mails, over 20 thousand of them! Foreign television channels
from Italy, Japan, Finland, Sweden, Germany wanted to interview
me. My son found out how many people read the material that
PRAVDA.Ru published and he told me that there were not less than
two million people, not to mention those newspapers and
magazines that reprinted your article in the West. I have
received interesting scientific suggestions, which gave me food
for thought. Thank you a lot!


19:58
Danila

Dear Professor Chuvyrov,

I would like to ask you a question regarding the identification
of the slab's age. Did you analyze the stone itself, or the
ground that filled the cracks of the stone?

C: We analyzed the material of the stone. There are no cracks on
it. There is a map of rivers and valleys that was cut on it with
special instruments.

**

Copyright 1999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in
whole or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.








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   Jun > Jun 14

                          Secrecy News -- 06/13/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:44:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:02:14 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/13/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 52
June 13, 2002


**      MIT PANEL WEIGHS CLASSIFIED RESEARCH
**      THE END OF SECRECY?


MIT PANEL WEIGHS CLASSIFIED RESEARCH

An ad hoc faculty committee at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology this week reaffirmed MIT's longstanding attitude
toward the conduct of classified research, opposing such
research on campus but permitting it at the university's off-
campus facilities.

"We recommend that no classified research should be carried out
on campus, that no student, graduate or undergraduate, should be
required to have a security clearance to perform their research,
and that no thesis research should be carried out in areas
requiring access to classified materials," the committee report
states.

On the other hand, "There exist several organizations that can
provide access to classified facilities to enable MIT faculty to
carry out the classified portions of their research.  The most
prominent of these is MIT's Lincoln Laboratory, but several
other organizations could also provide such access."

The report addresses various emerging security restrictions and
provides some important real-world feedback.  For example:

"Because there is no consistent understanding or definition of
what would constitute 'sensitive' information, MIT should
continue its policy of not agreeing to any sponsor's contractual
request that research results... be reviewed for the inadvertent
disclosure of 'sensitive' information.  Beyond this, MIT should
not accept or hold any documents on its campus that are
designated 'sensitive' or 'no foreign nationals'...."

The committee report, entitled "In the Public Interest," may be
found together with a June 12 MIT press release here:

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/nr/2002/publicinterest.html


THE END OF SECRECY?

"The U.S. military must consciously prepare itself to fight in
an information transparent world," according to a paper
published by the Air Force last year.

"The worldwide explosion in the quantity and quality of
information and products available to the general public user,
the ready accessibility of the information, and the
affordability in acquiring any desired data or product is
creating a transparent world at an alarming rate," wrote Air
Force Lt. Col. Beth M. Kaspar.

"Transparency can seriously degrade several principles of war,
most significantly mass, maneuver, and surprise.  For example,
it will provide an adversary near-real time, accurate battle-
space visibility of U.S. military posture at both the strategic
and theater levels," Col. Kaspar wrote.

"U.S. military planners must accept that information
transparency is inevitable and proceed to minimize its affects
on our military capability."

See "The End of Secrecy?  Military Competitiveness in the Age of
Transparency," originally published by the Center for Strategy
and Technology, Air War College, Air University, Maxwell Air
Force Base, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/kaspar.pdf


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Jun > Jun 14

                          Filer's Files #24 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:47:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:05:00 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #24 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #24-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 12, 2002,  Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.


THE UNIVERSE IS FULL OF WONDERS PATIENTLY WAITING FOR US TO GROW
WISER.

UFO SIGHTINGS: New Jersey cylinder, Pennsylvania lights, Indiana
lights, Oklahoma triangle, Texas orbs, California lights,
Washington sightings continue, Canada sightings, Mexico orbs,
Argentina dwarf and mutilations, and  Turkey daylight UFO
landing and alien seen.  Sun is responsible for global warming.
Scientific evidence of previous Earth civilization discovered.

CONGRATULATION TO QUEEN ELIZABETH ON HER 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF
BECOMING QUEEN.  I dined with her husband Prince Phillip, the
Duke of Edinburgh at RAF Sculthorpe Airbase.  He mentioned his
personal interest in UFOs, since the early 1950s.  He stated.
"There are many reasons to believe that they (UFOs) do exist:
there is so much evidence from reliable witnesses."  (Sunday
Dispatch London, March 28, 1954)

WATCH FOR SPACESHIPS THIS WEEK

NASA reports two astronauts ventured outside the International
Space Station on Sunday, June 9, 2002, and hung a giant handgrip
and cosmic-debris shields.  Shuttle Endeavor astronauts Franklin
Chang-Diaz and Philippe Perrin enjoyed their first spacewalk
240-miles above the Earth.  They attached a grapple hook for the
space station's 58-foot robot arm.  The astronauts removed a
stack of six protective panels from Endeavor and secured them to
the space station.  The metal shields are needed to strengthen
the hull of the Russian-built living quarters against space junk
or asteroids.  During their seven hour spacewalk they
photographed the housing around a gyroscope that broke Saturday.
The space station was being  steered by the three other
gyroscopes that make up the main motion-control system.

Just after sunset and before sunrise you should be able to see
the spaceships pass over North America.  Look first to the
northwest and the two objects should look like a dim speck of
light that appears near the horizon.  It brightens quickly, then
glides leisurely overhead, crossing the sky in 3 to 5 minutes.
The space station can outshine every star and planet except the
Sun, the Moon and possibly Venus.  It usually looks like an
ordinary star, that is eye-catching because it moves across the
sky in about five minutes.  It orbits Earth every 90 minutes at
an altitude of 375 km.
http://www.filersfiles.com/space/index.php?id=3D55

Editor's Note: I wonder if we will get a chance to see these
pictures.

THE SUN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF GLOBAL WARMING Mitch Battros
writes that the evidence that global warming is caused by the
sun is increasing the "anymore."  One of the strongest
endorsements which came forward last Thursday was from Mukul
Sharma, Assistant Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth
University.  He has strong evidence confirming what I have been
calling a "Mega Cycle" since September 1999 regarding the Sun.
His research shows the Sun's magnetic activity is varying in
100,000 year cycles, a much longer time span than previously
thought, and this solar activity, in turn, may likely cause the
100,000 year climate cycles on earth.  This research helps
scientists understand past climate trends and prepare for future
ones. "Surprisingly, it looks like solar activity is varying in
longer time spans than we realized," says Sharma. "We knew about
the shorter cycles (11 year) of solar activity, so maybe these
are just little cycles within a larger cycle. Even more
surprising is the fact that the glacial and interglacial periods
on earth during the last 200,000 years appear to be strongly
linked to solar activity."  The old formula's that warming is
caused by human activity just doesn't fit.

NEW JERSEY CYLINDER HOVERS ABOVE FISHERMAN

ATLANTIC OCEAN -- I was out about 45 miles to sea in the
Atlantic.  Weather was calm and I was looking forward to a day
of fishing. At about 3:00 PM in the afternoon on August 23,
2001, a reflection off a metallic cylinder caught my eye.  The
cylinder was hovering about 1000 feet over the surface and the
direct spot that it was hovering over was about 1500 feet away
from my boat.  During the encounter, which lasted only about 45
seconds, the object disturbed my compass and my GPS.  The screen
on my GPS said cannot locate signal.  Small bait fish became
excited and swam to the surface. The craft emitted no light but
a pulsing, electrical sound came from the craft. The craft had
two section that counter rotated around each other. I left to go
see if I had a camera down below, and when I returned, the craft
had flown away.  The fish subsided, the compass returned to its
bearings, and my GPS picked up the signal.  Case1-937. Thanks to
MUFON, http://ohiomufon.services4all.com

OLDBRIDGE -- A Fireman reports he was listening to the radio
scanners and heard a call for all police units in the area to
provide information on a suspicious aircraft flying low on June
1, 2002, directly to the west at about a 75 degrees.  At 5:38
PM, EMS units reported the same information from dispatcher in
back of my Glenwood apartments.  They described the strange
object with a semi transparent oval shape around it moving from
0 to about 700 mph in about 10 seconds and a distance of over 80
miles.  Being a member of the fire company, I have a direct view
clear free of any obstructions in the sky.  The fireman witness
reports he saw the weird shaped object with this semi
transparent oval shape sphere or something around the outside.
It was holding steady then suddenly moving at a high rate of
speed to the southwest at 230 degrees according to the compass.
The witness reports, "It was seen to the west then moved
southwest.  It must have traveled easily over 700 mph.  There is
no way an aircraft can go from 0 to that speed and distance in
that amount of time which was about 10 seconds total.  I don't
have pictures to prove this but I'm sure someone around the
township has because there was a small article in the
Sayreville, Oldbridge suburban newspaper. There were ten to
twenty witnesses who watched the object for at least ten
minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National Reporting
Center http://www.ufocenter .com.

PENNSYLVANIA LIGHTS

PHILADELPHIA -- The witness reports seeing two objects (round
and blue in color) in a cloudless sky.  At first sight I thought
they were stars, but because it was 4:30 PM, in the afternoon
and they were moving across the sky, they couldn't be stars.  As
I informed the other witness to come look at what I was seeing
and pointing out the one object that remained in view, I lost
the other behind trees a third object, much lower came streaking
by.  This was a blue ball of light with a halo around it and
didn't make any sound.  The objects didn't waiver, they just
traveled straight, heading east, out to sea.  A couple of
minutes later, a fourth object flew by, this one was the same as
the third, but it was a yellow color with a halo and traveled
the same low path as the third object.  The most important part
of the whole experience is that for the next 45 minutes, I
counted 7 high altitude jets (possibly military aircraft)
traveling in the same direction as the 4 objects.  Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center
http://www.ufocenter .com

INDIANA ORANGE LIGHTS

FRANKFORT, CLINTON COUNTY -- The two witnesses live in rural
North-Central Indiana and on May 29, 2002, at about 9:15 PM, the
boy with his girlfriend were looking at the stars.  He states,
"All of a sudden something caught the corner of my eye so I
stood up and saw two bright orange lights that appeared to be
very big in the sky."  Three seconds later the lights fade out.
Another three seconds and three lights appeared west of the
first set, then they faded again.  We ran inside to tell her
parents and we all came out and looked for about 15 minutes.
Then the same light caught my eye again and we stood up to see
three orange lights fade away.  Then two seconds later *four*
huge orange lights appeared in a vertical line, and then the
middle light fades out, then the rest go out.  I was very
scared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter .com

OKLAHOMA LARGE LOW FLYING TRIANGLE

CAMERON, LEFLORE COUNTY -- The witness reports, "We were driving
through Cameron on May 31, 2002, at about 11:00 PM, and I saw
slow, flashing lights reflected on the upper part of the
windshield."  "I looked up through the windshield but didn't see
anything and just absently thought, well, that's a reflection,
but realized that there was nothing I'd seen that there could be
a reflection from, so I looked upwards through the windshield
again, and was jolted by what I saw.  It was a very large, low
flying object.  The lights on the front of the object looked
like large windows."  My companion had put his head outside the
window and asked if I was seeing what he was seeing.  He was
driving, and almost ran off the road, so he told me to look
through the rear window to see if I could see it.  I saw it
seeming to follow the side of the highway, then veered off,
crossing the highway and was out of sight, over an area of dense
trees.  My companion had seen the lights approaching us while
driving, but thought they were stationary. "I did not see them
until the craft was overhead."  He was looking up underneath it,
and saw the triangular outline of very soft solid lights.  The
flashing lights were on top of the object.  I did not see the
lights on top, or the triangular shape of the object from the
front view.  It was a low, slow-moving object, and despite its
size, there was no sound coming from it whatsoever.

Editor's Note:  Regarding the investigation of Lawton, OK.
According to Dr. Bruce Maccabee there are two photos of
apparently the same weird thing(s) from Lawton, OK.   See
http://brumac.8k.com/LawtonTriangle/LawtonTriangle.html.

TEXAS  DAYLIGHT ORBS

IRVING -- Four lights were reported maneuvering at high in the
sky and departing a high rate of speed moving from east to west
on May 31, 2002.  One of the lights maneuvered erratically as
they moved across the sky at a high rate of speed at 11:00 PM.
The formation steadied and the lights disappeared to the north
west.  Because we are adjacent to Dallas Fort Worth Airport we
are accustomed to seeing aircraft at night.  These lights were
not like any of the aircraft lights observed in the past.  My
wife was the first to notice and called me outside to observe.

SAN ANTONIO -- On June 1, 2002, the witness was tracking a
satellite from the SW to the NE when he noticed a faint light
heading south.  This light was followed by 4 to 6 other lights
not quite as bright as the leader at 10:30 PM.  The following
lights were moving around each other in no apparent pattern. One
group of lights were  flying south of San Antonio.  The first
light continued in a straight line to the south towards Mexico,
as the others followed behind.  The sighting lasted for about
five minutes.

DALLAS -- On June 2, 2002. two friends were at Hurricane Harbor
a water park in Arlington Texas in an upper covered deck looking
out over the park sitting with the sun just barely occluded by
the beam at the edge of the roof.  The witness states, "I was
looking at the water vapor rising up over the park on clear
sunny day wearing fairly dark sunglasses as did Charles." I was
looking at the spot where the suns corona was flaring out from
behind the beam and saw a white orb fly at a very rapid speed
north at higher altitude than the jetliners in view.  It moved
many times faster than the jets.  I was sort of stunned but
wasn't sure what I saw.  Then another object on a similar
trajectory moved from the apparent position of the sun north.
At this point my friend asked what was going on and I told him
to tell me what he saw.  In the next few minutes we saw another
four objects.  One was on a curved trajectory angling northwest.
It was the size of a BB held at arm's length colored white with
a well defined shape.  If we took off our sunglasses the glare
in the sky was such that it would have been impossible to see
anything at all.   Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National
Reporting Center http:// www.ufocenter .com

CALIFORNIA FLYING TRIANGLE SATELLITES

STANISLAUS NATIONAL FOREST, TUOLUMNE COUNTY -- A 44 year old
male with a masters degree and an avid back yard astronomer and
Ufologist for over 15 years reports seeing a formation of lights
in the night sky forming the shape of a flying triangle on May
29, 2002,  "At 10:32 PM (three days ago), I was at the 6800 foot
elevation in the mountains north of Yosemite, near a resort
called Kennedy meadows.  We were staying at a private cabin and
I was using a 4 inch refractor telescope and binoculars to view
the crystal clear night sky. We spotted a couple of distant
galaxies and nebula, we also concentrated on counting satellites
that trekked across the sky.  We also spotted a flying object
quite a bit higher than the commercial planes.  I figured it was
military because it flew like a plane but did not display the
standard red and green wing tip lights.  It had a single white
strobe that blinked about once every five seconds.

We spotted twelve satellites that are distinctive since they are
small spots of light in orbit that move  quickly across the sky,
but appear to move more slowly when they are further away.-
orbital velocity is roughly 17,500 mph.  Not all satellites
however travel at the same speed -- some seem to be faster than
others but this may be attributable to the altitude of their
individual orbit.  They often change their light intensity since
they are so high, reflecting sunlight that shines from far over
the horizon.  If they are spinning, they will seem to slowly
flicker as their surfaces reflect light in different directions,
or their trajectory might not be conducive to good reflectivity
of sunlight. We spotted 12 satellites, most traveling in a polar
orbit that would rate to be between a magnitude of 3 to 4 about
as bright as the star Orion.  Within two seconds of spotting it
I saw two more flying behind it adjacent to one another. My
companion also saw the objects.  The formation was perfectly
symmetrical in that, they moved as one unit, in the shape of a
triangle, however it is important to note that the space between
them did not occlude stars behind them as a solid object would
do. At arm's length the lights were covered by your thumb with
the lead light on the tip, and the trailing lights at the base
separated by the width of your thumb -- this forms the triangle
formation.  At the apparent distance of these objects, this
would constitute a formation that was considerably wide apart,
yet they maintained perfect symmetry from one another and
continued that way with the same heading (north to south in this
case) throughout the sighting.  They never reappeared, Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center
http://www.ufocenter .com

WASHINGTON SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

SEATTLE -- A small ascending object was sighted above 6th Avenue
in downtown Seattle on May 31, 2002.  I saw this object at about
11:00 PM, from the 7th floor of our building.  The object was
difficult to identify because it was either very small or far
away and gradually ascended and disappeared into the clouds.
The object appeared to be moving from the southeast towards the
northwest.  It had the shape of a kite, but I thought it unusual
to be flying kites in this area because our office is located in
one of the main approaches to Sea-Tac airport.  I do not think
the object was a balloon although it did gradually ascend in a
smooth motion.  I first sighted the object at a declination of
60 degrees and lost it about 80 degrees.  Weather: partly cloudy
with a ceiling of around 5,000 feet.

ZILLAH, YAKIMA County -- The witnesses report seeing three dim
yellow lights travel at high speed on June 1, 2002, at 10:45
PM\. The witnesses stated, "They saw a dim yellow light, ~25
times the size of a star but half as bright, came from the
north, traveled ~3/4 of the way across the horizon then made a
near angular turn and headed east.  It was traveling so fast
that when it turned east, (away from my vantage point), it was
out of sight in about two seconds.  Fifteen minutes later a
similar craft crossed the sky going southeast at the same speed.
I observed a third craft moving southeast about ten minutes
after the second sighting. All three looked and flew the same
This road was quite deserted, but there were probably thirty
other vehicles that must have seen something.  We sure won't be
the same.   Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter .com

CANADA LIGHTS

WINDERMERE TO CANAL FLATS -- The witnesses report seeing a
bright, white strobe light on deserted highway.  The ladies
report, "My sister and I were traveling from Vancouver to
Kimberly on May 31, 2002, at about 1:00 AM, when we reached a
few miles south of Windermere we saw a bright strobe light above
some trees."  We thought it was a beacon of some kind, but we
noticed that it took a long time to reach it and finally pass
it.  It was almost in the trees and the road traveled in a way
that we could not see it when we passed it.  A few moments later
we saw another bright, white strobe light just above the trees
quite a bit further down the road.  At one point I could see it
flashing just above a house.  We were getting closer now and we
finally realized it was moving.  "There were no marker lights,
no spotlight and we were in a bit of a thunder and lightning
storm, so I really do not think it was any kind of legitimate
aircraft."  This second light stayed with us for a minute or so
traveling at our speed just above the trees about 50 feet to our
left. It stopped "following" us just before the next small town.

When we reached Fairmont, we stopped and I could still see it
flashing in the distance. We continued on, quite scared now. We
crossed a small bridge and I saw another one on my right but it
was stationary.  Then as we traveled alongside Columbia Lake we
saw another one.  This one was on the other side of the lake,
but it stayed with us for a few minutes.  When we reached Canal
Flats, it stopped, and when we looked back there were two
hovering over the town.  We were frightened and continued on our
way.  Thanks to Peter Davenport www.ufocenter.com.

SELKIRK -- I was in my backyard reading a book by candle light
on June 2, 2002, at about 11:00-11:30 PM CST.  After completing
the 1st chapter of the book,  "The Stranger" I stopped and had
my break. And was gazing into the sky as it was one of the
clearest nights I have seen recently and saw something that I
could not explain!  I stayed outside for a while after I saw it
to see if it would come back again.  When I'm reading a book I
take a break after each chapter to have a cigarette and to think
about what I have just read.  I saw what was either a triangular
shaped craft or three crafts flying in a triangular formation.
I don't know whether it was just one or multiples because I was
unable to make out any part of the structure only three red
lights. I am not an aviation expert at all but I this was not an
airplane, they flew  allot closer than planes usually fly and it
was one of the fastest moving objects I have ever seen in my
life. I am extremely skeptical about these types of things and
have been searching the net since I saw them  and the closest
picture I could find was this one
http://www.totalufo.net/ufos/pics/belgufo.htm but there was no
middle light and I was unable to make out and defined shape like
the one in this picture which is why it could have been three
separate objects.  There was also TV problems  after I had come
inside that never happened before.  Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director National Reporting Center www.ufocenter .com

TERRACE, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- Brian Vike reports that he
interviewed, a 73 year old man, who along with his companion
observed a large glowing object traveling east at 1000 feet
altitude on March 9, 2002.  The sighting lasted 5 to 10 seconds
before it disappeared in the distance at 10:30 PM. There were a
pile of lights on the bottom of the object in a circular pattern
and all white in color. They also were able to see this very
clearly.  Thanks to Brian Vike  HBCC UFO Editors' Note: These
three satellites in triangular pattern are a Naval satellite
system.

MEXICO MOUNT POPOCATEPETL UFOs CONTINUE

MOUNT POPOCATEPETL -- Dr. Oren Swearingen informed me that he
has been tracking UFOs everyday at the volcano.  Dark UFOs are
frequently seen almost daily hovering over the volcano.  They
often are seen in a triangle pattern and has lights during the
night.  On June 12, 2202, several UFOs were visible moving among
the clouds at 9:43 AM.  If anyone is located nearby they should
be able to obtain close up photographs.
http://www.messenia.com/links/webcam/asp/popocatepetl.aspPOCATEP
ETAL -

ARGENTINA STRANGE DWARF REPORTED IN CATTLE MUTE AREA

GENERAL ACHA (DNA) -- The presence of a "dwarf" or "green
midget" wandering the backyards of many neighborhoods in General
Acha has been the latest subject of conversation. It appears to
be a short, green entity which runs away with haste when
detected.  A resident of the El Oeste neighborhood informed this
newspaper that the entity appeared twice on her property: once
in the morning and once in the afternoon. According to the
woman, her husband was resting on both occasions, but when he
reported to the backyard in response to his wife's screams, the
mysterious entity vanished by rapidly climbing up a tree. While
the man did not see the "dwarf," he gives his spouse the benefit
of the doubt, stating that he has known her for 40 years and can
vouch for her physical and mental health. All versions agree in
that the entity is short in stature. Another resident added that
it moved so quickly that it was hard to describe it. The fact is
that this entity, described as "a green dwarf," is causing a
stir in the city and its manifestations have been the subject of
conversation in certain circles. The stories have already
captivated radio audiences.  Thanks to the Diario "La Arena" (La
Pampa, News 06-06-02

GENERAL ACHA -- Five cows were found dead this past weekend in a
field of the Cuchillo-Co region. The animals' lifeless bodies
were missing organs and their mysterious deaths were added to
the more than ten cases that still perplex police officers and
veterinarians involved in investigating these events. The
Aberdeen Angus cows were found at the "La Sierra" rural
establishment, owned by Gregoria Ech=E1vez, located on Lot 24 some
150 kilometers west of General Acha. Police sources informed LA
ARENA on Sunday that Maria Alejandra Veralli had filed a
complaint after receiving a telephone call from her sister,
discussing the fact that the deaths of five bovines had been
ascertained, and some of them were missing vital organs.  The
police undertook the pertinent action and reported the event to
the 2nd Duty Court. The field is located on Routes 28 and 13.

This weekend's finds were added to the rest of the cases which
have kept police and veterinarians on edge. Readers will recall
that cows slain under strange circumstances were found in the
fields of Macach=EDn, Salliquel=F3 (province of Buenos Aires),
Bernasconi, Jacinto Arauz, Villa Iris and the General Acha
region. In all of these cases, the animals had been rendered
bloodless and presented incisions made by high-precision
instruments which are unknown to the parties conducting the
investigation. The shroud of mystery is further thickened by the
fact that in the hours prior to one of these discoveries,
strange lights were seen in the vicinity.  Thanks to Scott
Corrales and the Institute of Hispanic Ufology.  Translation
Copy write 2002.

TURKEY UFO LANDING

ANTALYA -- While scientists and UFO researchers arguing about
the existence of "extraterrestrial life "45 people at Antalya
claimed they saw an alien. The Santral district inhabitants
claimed that they witnessed a UFO's landing on the backyard of
the Fatma P=FDr=FDlt=FD Primary School and saw an alien being getting
out of the unusual craft.  Eleven year old, Murat Esici, one of
the witnesses who had a very close observation says , "He was
emitting red rays from his eyes, his hands and feet were iron."
"He had a very big head and he was 1.80 meters long," while
crying at the principal Halil Aldemirs office. It is said that
he lost his voice after his sighting.  Students Zeynep C=FDp=FDnar
and Nalan D=F6nmez also claimed they saw an unusual craft and an
alien  beside it. "His eyes and hands were red and a red light
was emitting from his eyes."

International  UFO  Museum and SIRIUS  president Haktan Akdogan
is flying to investigate the sighting.  After the bulletins were
broadcast on national television prime time news and in national
news papers, Haktan Akdogan phoned Antalya Governor Ertugrul
Dokuzoglu and decided to go to the area to investigate the
incident more closely.  Further information will be available in
few days at  www.siriusufo.org and info@siriusufo.org

SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE OF PREVIOUS EARTH CIVILIZATION?

Cosmiverse, Pravda and Outside Asylum have a rather interesting
series of articles about some stone maps that have been found in
China that may date to some 120 million years ago.  The map
appears to be a topographical relief on a scale 1 : 1.1
Kilometers.  To blockquote:  "The map indicates the use of civil
engineering to create a system of channels about 12,000 km in
length and 500 meters wide, and 12 dams  that are 300 to 500
meters wide."  Their work is being peer reviewed in the
scientific community, so  there is some hope and reasonable
possibility that this is not a hoax.  The map was found by
scientists who were working on researching possible Chinese
immigration to Ural and Siberia.  When this was originally
found, it was thought that it had been carved by hand and  was
some 3000 years old.  Upon examination, it became obvious that
this  was machine made.  It was also discovered upon x-ray
examination that  the map is made up of three layers, including
a layer of a type of  ceramic that has never been used in China.
"During the searches, notes dated to the 18th Century were found
in archives of Ufa governor-general.  They reported about 200
unusual stone slabs which were situated not far from the Chandar
village, Nurimanov Region.  Chuvyrov and his colleague at once
decided that slabs could be connected with Chinese migrants.
Archive notes also reported that in 17th-8th Centuries,
expeditions of Russian scientists who investigated Ural Region
had studied 200 white slabs with signs and patterns, while in
early 20th Century, archaeologist A.Schmidt also had seen some
white slabs in Bashkiria.  This made the scientist start the
search. "If these are indeed the same slabs that were referred
to in the 18th Century, then the technology available then
simply would not have been  capable of making such a map."

Even the technology available today for information needed for
such a map is only under the development phase by the US and is
not expected to be finished until the year 2010.  These are
excellent signs against an elaborate hoax.  To quote one Pravda
article, "At first we thought that the stone was about 3,000
years. Though, that age was gradually growing, till we
identified the shells ingrained in the stone to sign some
objects. Though, who could guarantee that the shell was alive
while being ingrained in the map?  The map's creator probably
used a petrified find." ... While examining the stone, two
shells were found on its surface.  The age of one of them -
Navicopsina munitus of Gyrodeidae family - is about 500 million
years, while of the second one - Ecculiomphalus princeps of
Ecculiomphalinae subfamily - is about 120 million years.  If the
dating is correct, and it is not a hoax, then it could not have
been man-made.  This means either an advanced civilization whose
remains have just been found, or interstellar travelers.  In
either case, it would be an unprecedented and terribly
interesting find.  I think it is perfectly reasonable that a
civilization could have evolved here naturally, and died off
well before humans evolved.  Consider that involved in a time
span of about 250,000 years. For something that is 120 million
years old, that is more than ample time for such a previous
species to have risen and fallen.  Consider the asteroid that
wiped out 99% of life on Earth 65 million years ago, and you
have a perfectly plausible reason said species was wiped out in
totality.    <SNIP    To read this article in its entirety,
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/6/5/7320/94554 Thanks to Dr.
Robert Trundle.

MUFON 2002 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM

On July, 5-7, 2002, the 33rd annual MUFON conference will be
held at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Rochester, New York.  Come
hear the top speakers from the US, Canada, and England on UFOs
and abductions. The Platinum Package is priced at $150.00 per
person Please contact Jim Bouck  nitesiter@yahoo.com or  Bob
Long - alienchasr@aol.com or the MUFON Website.

THE UFO STORE -- Your purchases at the UFO Store will help pay
for UFO research.  Go for the widest selection of UFO books,
CDs, and videos on the net at: http://www.filersfiles.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL.  A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com.  Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post the complete files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue that the item appeared.  These reports
and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.
Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential.  CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 14

                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:27:26 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:09:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: A. Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:12:31 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:41:17 +1000
 >>Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>I have been playing with the pic, here's a negative image >with emboss &
 >trace using Paintshop Pro.

 >>http://www.cairns.net.au/~tims/LAufo1942negEMBOSStrace.jpg

 >>It certainly seems to fit the classic saucer profile and no
 >>hard edges are detected. Interesting!

 >Excellent work!

 >However, in examining the image, I noticed the outline of the
 >combined search beams also match the outline of the alleged
 >'saucer'. If you expand the outline of the 'saucer' out, you
 >will see that it has approximately the same design as the
 >merging search beams.

 >I can't help but wonder if the 'saucer' outline may be due to
 >some type of illumination effect caused by the search beams when
 >they came together at one spot in the sky rather than reflecting
 >the shape of the actual object.....

Hi Amy, thanks for your reply! :)

I don't know much about lights converging! Perhaps someone on
the list will be able to offer more on your theory?

I am amazed that no hard edges whatsoever show up! It was the
same with that NY UFO close up, I posted recently. I speculate
that it could be some kind of electronic/magnetic sheild or
"force field" as they used to call it in the sci-fi stories! :)
Either that or it's lost it's hard edges because it was
illuminated from virtually every angel above & below and
possibly may have had an extremely reflective surface?

There may have been other photographs taken as the object
cruised around LA for half an hour. If so, perhaps an ad in the
LA Times would bring them out of the basements & attics?

Incredible how this remained so low-key for all these years! But
then, it was wartime & the world was under martial law! I think
that any remaining witnesses need to be interviwed before it's
too late and this becomes just another UFO myth! Is there anyone
on the list living in LA who's willing to take it on?

Regards

Dave








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   Jun > Jun 14

               Mayor Declares Chilean UFO Region Tourism Zone

From: Karl Rotstan <karl.rotstan@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:20:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:11:16 -0400
Subject: Mayor Declares Chilean UFO Region Tourism Zone


Source: http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/3463607.htm

Rash of UFO sightings prompts mayor to declare Chilean region
official tourism zone

BY KEVIN G. HALL
Knight Ridder Newspapers


SAN JOSE DE MAIPO, Chile - (KRT) - The snowcapped Andes have
long attracted globetrotters, but the mayor of this picturesque
Chilean mountain district insists visitors are coming from even
farther away - other galaxies and solar systems.

Villagers have reported so many UFO sightings during the past
two decades that on Saturday, Mayor Miguel Marquez is declaring
his Maipo River region just outside the capital of Santiago an
official UFO tourism zone.

He plans to erect two observation centers, place signs where
there have been sightings and offer workshops on, among other
topics, how best to photograph alien visitors.

He believes the nearby mountains contain a "natural energy" that
attracts visitors, even those from another world.

"This zone is the UFO capital of Chile," Marquez said in an
interview. "Many people have made sightings, including me
personally.

"I'm not going to say I've seen aliens," he added carefully.
"But I've seen objects."

Chile's Corporation for the Investigation of UFOs, a band of
believers based in the capital, approached the mayor with the
UFO tourism concept several months ago.

Since tourists were already coming to the region to relax, the
group's leaders suggested, why not encourage them to scan the
skies for alien beings?

The idea is to have "foreigners come and see this zone for
themselves and speak about UFOs," said Eric Martinez, a Santiago
salesman who heads investigations for the UFO group in his spare
time.

He currently is looking into a report that a Chilean woman was
abducted by aliens, or as Martinez prefers to call them,
"unidentified biological entities."

Martinez said his group has videotape of actual UFOs that will
be released "at the appropriate time."

Mayor Marquez didn't need much convincing from Martinez's group,
having witnessed two UFOs himself. And if you don't believe him,
ask Jose Ruben Guajardo, a truck driver who works for the mayor.

Guajardo, 61, who prefaced his remarks by saying that he does
not drink alcohol, said that on March 26 at 4:30 a.m. he was
riding in a truck near the San Jose volcano.

Coming toward the truck alongside a river, he recalled with
great animation, was a huge object lit up in orange. He drew it
on paper for a curious reporter. It looked like a giant fish
with antennas.

"I didn't tell anyone because no one would believe it. My wife
told me I was lying," Guajardo said. "It was with us for about
half a minute to a minute, then we lost sight of it. Before
that, I'd only seen them (UFOs) at a distance, but this one was
real close."

Up the icy mountain road a few miles in San Gabriel, farmer Beno
Vergara stopped unloading hay for a minute. Yes, he's seen UFOs,
too.

"We wanted to get closer to see it," he said, describing a round
object emitting beams of red, white and yellow light.

Nearby, on horseback and wearing a colorful poncho and wide-
brimmed hat, goat herder Pedro Antonio Tobar was unimpressed.

"I don't believe in them," he said. Then he galloped off.

A conservative country characterized by Germanic discipline and
the British stiff upper lip of its immigrant forefathers, Chile
would hardly seem a nation of UFO spotters.

Yet Chilean newspapers, radio shows and television programs
report UFO sightings regularly and lavishly.

One explanation is that Chile's location far down the southern
hemisphere places it under the center of the Milky Way. This
draws astronomers worldwide to Chilean observatories and gives
the country a certain cosmic consciousness.

In addition, the Southern Lights - just like the Northern Lights
that produce rich colored displays over Alaska and Canada - play
richly in Chile's nighttime sky.

To the naive eye, the aurora's glow behind a hilltop can look a
lot like something around the bend giving off a weird light.

"If you don't know how to explain it, you have a UFO," said
Jorge Ianischewezki, author of a popular Chilean astronomy
guide.

"People from the city, they don't know the sky. The sky is
something strange to them," he said.

"The southern sky is rich in objects."

---

=A9 2002, Knight Ridder/Tribune Information Services.







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   Jun > Jun 14

             Re: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:40:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:12:33 -0400
Subject: Re: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Lehmberg


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:20:21 +0200
 >Subject: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt

 >Source: Alan Boyle's 'Cosmic Log' on MSNBC,

 >http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?cp1=3D1

 >Go to the page for audio link and photo of the debased Kreskin!

 >Stig

 >***

 >"I think I keep my money, and I'll be able to eat," he said.
 >Note to self: Watch out for the fine print when you're betting
 >against the Amazing Kreskin. What do you think? [Link]

 ><snip>

A pox on Mr. Kreskin, yes, _beset_ with boils and hives, for
stealing all that money from the kids he USED, what jive!  The
man's an artless psychopath who used these kids like GREASE;
he's a symbol of our ignorance, and the worst kind of disease!
Karma is a real thing... beyond what we can know, and I predict
that he'll pay a price, and reap what he would sew!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

... the amazing "K", another candidate for chemical castration.
What an artless _skunk_ of the first water.
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 14

                 Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:55:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:16:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:33:16 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:36:53 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:14:07 EDT
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #18 - Young


 ><snip>

 >>>So, what was your list, and did it include boosters?

 >>No -- all the clueless alumni wisely stayed home...

 ><snip>

 >>My list, sir, included the passage of _all_ satellites in the
 >>database that had 'some' visibility even if the magnitude of
 >>that visibility was as low as ten!

 >Did you include Kosmos-2389, launched on May 28, or the new
 >Chinese 2002-24B, which has the FY-1D weather satellite in an
 >851 x 873 km orbit, and the object that maneuvered to a lower
 >792 km orbit, the the HY-1 oceanography research satellite? Or
 >the French Spot 5 imaging satellite launched on May 5, for that
 >matter, and its booster?

Grasp furiously at your straws, Mr. Young. Furiously prosecute
the box-like interior of your world view. But I'm astonished
that you can't fathom that there _might_ be something else in
timeless space when _our_ meager little fabrication is so
microscopically tiny, and everything else is so flippingly -
gonzo- huge.

You see, as I'd otherwise read here on UpDates, you have to be
'right' about _every_ one of yours, I only have to be right
about _one_ of mine. I am much easier to vindicate, while you
are much easier, as a result of your absolute and almost
insentient rigidity, to dismiss.

 >Just for starters.

...There'll be no end to _you_, Mr. Young. You are Yeats'
worst, in my estimation, busily passionate while the isolated
best must lose all conviction.

What? No "Nyuk, nyuks"? ...And sorry about the misspelling on
my last post -- I meant "CSICOP" <Center for the Silly and
Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.






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   Jun > Jun 14

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:18:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:54:15 -0400

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 ><snip>

 >>They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
 >>take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
 >>in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
 >>I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
 >>family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
 >>help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
 >>interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.

 >I believe that was an early episode of 'Sightings'. I believe
 >they went back to the crash site and actually located some small
 >metallic pieces of the aircraft that had been missed by the
 >military many years earlier. If someone has the Sightings
 >publication on UFO subjects, the Mantell case may be one of the
 >featured items.

Also, I received this report from one of my correspondents about
the Mantell case which changes my mind about this classic
incident...

"I spoke with the P-51 pilot about Mantell. This is what he
said...

Mantell was returning to Fort Knox area from Macon, GA with four
other P-51s. Mantell was not very experienced with the P-51
since he was actually a C-47 (Goony Bird) pilot. He had only
recently become a fighter pilot and had very little experience
with this high performance fighter.

Mantell was also not familiar with the "demand'"oxygen feed
system of the P-51. When you would use this system, it took
"hard sucking" on it to get proper amounts of oxygen especially
at high altitudes. They suspect that Mantell did not turn on the
oxygen system to begin with. The oxygen system knob was still in
a closed position inside the crashed plane. The P-51 had a
ceiling of about 34,000 ft. For their model of the plane. Later
the P-51 had higher capabilities.

As they approached Godman Field, the balloon was sighted and
since it was later found to be a secret Navy Weather Balloon
mission, the base control tower nor any of these pilots knew
what it was. It did appear as a saucer or round silvery object
at extreme altitude.

Mantell and two other pilots were ordered to investigate it and
Mantell was chosen to be the pilot to do so.

He climbed and kept on climbing reporting as he continued. No
report of a saucer was heard by the tower as reported by many
UFOlogists. As Mantell reached the max ceiling of his aircraft,
his radio became silent. He had passed out due to lack of oxygen
and his not being familiar with the oxygen system and its proper
use.

His P-51 went into a steep dive and reached about 500 MPH when
one wing fell off due to structural failure.

He was hitting Mach .87 when he hit the earth. The plane hit on
its side due to the loss of one wing.

It buried itself into the earth and covered half the aircraft.
He has photos of the plane in the ground and I (Clark) have seen
them. No holes were found in the metal as it has been reported.
At least as far as this pilot recalls.

That's the report of a P-51 pilot that WAS THERE."

Does this seem fairly accurate to anyone familiar with this
case?

-Bill Hamilton







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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:51:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:20:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

<snip>

 >>They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
 >>take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
 >>in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
 >>I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
 >>family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
 >>help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
 >>interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.


John, List, All -

Belief has very little to do with it. The skyhook balloons, made
of polyethylene were about 100 feet in diameter and in a sun
bright sky would look metallic. Since there was nothing in the
background to provide for an estimate of size, nor was there any
way for them to judge the height, they assumed something smaller
and closer to the ground. The descriptions of the object, taken
shortly after the event, however, suggest that they were looking
at a balloon. One of the drawings, made by a witness shortly
after the event, sure looks like a skyhook balloon. Yes, the
records suggest that a balloon could have been over the Godman
Army Air Field at the time, but they don't prove it.

It is also clear, from the records, that Mantell climbed above
12,000 feet without oxygen, and kept right on climbing,
reporting that he was getting closer (which, of course, he was)
but the object was still fifty or sixty thousand feet above him
when he lost consciousness and his F-51 rolled over into a power
dive. There were no indications in the wreckage that he ever
regained consciousness and tried to either end the dive or get
out of the airplane.

This clearly was a tragic accident and the explanation is, a
skyhook balloon. The Air Force used Venus, then Venus and a
balloon, and finally Venus and two balloons because they were
unaware of the skyhook project.

Jerry Clark in his massive "The UFO Encyclopedia" Second
Edition, (just a quick plug for the book, Jerry) wrote, on page
606, "Though the Skyhook identification is surely correct...) he
then explains that Ruppelt was wrong thinking it was launched
from Clinton County airport, but came from Camp Ripley.

This, I believe illustrates one of the points I have been trying
to make about peer review. Here is a case that is solved and yet
we are discussing it again. Yes, we must be aware of our
history, but if solid peer review existed, then we could move
beyond this sort of debate, point to what the peer review had
concluded, and use that as a basis for our arguments.

I'll say once again, the Mantell case has been solved. Thomas
Mantell, a good, competent, and heroic pilot (again I point to
his DFC from the Normandy Invasion) saw something he couldn't
identify and lost his life trying to get close enough for a good
look at it. We now know that it was a skyhook balloon.


KRandle








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:17:01 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:21:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:52:33 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:41:17 +1000
 >>Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>I have been playing with the pic, here's a negative image with
 >>emboss & trace using Paintshop Pro.

 >>http://www.cairns.net.au/~tims/LAufo1942negEMBOSStrace.jpg

 >>It certainly seems to fit the classic saucer profile and no hard
 >>edges are detected. Interesting!

 >This is nice,

Thankyou Sir! :)

 >but what we really need is a good print from the
 >files of the newspaper to work with.

I agree Dr. I have never done anything like this, but I suppose
one would merely write a reqest for a copy of the photograph?
Unless a LA list member wants to help out on this one?

Will it still exist in their archives, I wonder?








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   Jun > Jun 14

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:46:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:53:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:54:15 -0400

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 ><snip>

 >>They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
 >>take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
 >>in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
 >>I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
 >>family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
 >>help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
 >>interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.

 >I believe that was an early episode of 'Sightings'. I believe
 >they went back to the crash site and actually located some small
 >metallic pieces of the aircraft that had been missed by the
 >military many years earlier. If someone has the Sightings
 >publication on UFO subjects, the Mantell case may be one of the
 >featured items.


Thank you Steve.  :)

If I recall correctly Sightings arranged a meeting between the
Mantell's and one of the men who were on duty at the tower when
Maj. Mantell's plane crashed. Again, if memory serves, I think
he reported to them that what they witnessed, and what Mantell
chased, was a metallic disc.

I don't recall mention of anyone in the tower (at the time)
seeing a "balloon."

Regards,

John Velez








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   Jun > Jun 14

               Re: Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:17:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:56:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast - McCoy


 >From: Elaine Tassin <ETisHome@lawired.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:08:58 -0500

 >This is my first time posting, although I have been reading for
 >awhile. Thanks for keeping me informed on what's going on "out
 >there". Now I can do likewise.

 >A silver orb washes up on  along Isle of Palms,
 >South Carolina coast, June 13th, 2002.

 >Source: NewNet5.Com

 >http://www.newsnet5.com/news/1510728/detail.html

<snip>

Elaine, bet you 'Credits to Navy Beans' that it is Russian in
orgin take a look at a Soyuz or Progress Capsule. They tend to
stick with a design if it works, this could be an O2 or
Hydrazine (thruster) tank. Although I have seen and used US made
LPG Tanks, but they are usually Steel and rust fairly quickly.


GT McCoy








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   Jun > Jun 14

               Argentina - Mystery In La Pampa Over Mutilated

From: Louise Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:37:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:00:25 -0400
Subject: Argentina - Mystery In La Pampa Over Mutilated


Subj: Argentina: Mystery in La Pampa over Mutilated Cattle
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 7:57:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: lornis1@juno.com

Source: Diario "La Arena" (La Pampa-Argentina)
DATE: 06-14-02

MYSTERY IN LA PAMPA OVER MUTILATED CATTLE

FURTHER CASES IN MACACHIN AND RIVERA

MACACHIN (Agencia)_It became known on Wednesday that several
cows had been found dead under mysterious circumstances in
fields of the Rivera and Macach=EDn regions, showing incisions and
removal of organs. One of the affected parties showed this
newspaper a videotape and explained that he had found a dead cow
whose organs had been removed through incisions, showing
"evident signs of cauterization."

One of the new cases in the hitherto unexplained wave of bovine
deaths through mutilation was recorded last weekend on the
property owned by the Diez family in Arano, a property some 20
km west of Rivera. On Wednseday, the landowner's son showed LA
ARENA a video and explained his experience. "My father found the
dead animal last Saturday and discussed it in the afternoon upon
his return. We immediately went back with a friend and saw that
it had several strange incisions whose edges showed signs of an
intense heat which cauterized the wound."

According to the young man and what appears on the videotape,
the cow presents a perfectly round mark around its ocular
cavity, from which the orb was competely missing. It also had
incisions on the upper and lower maxilla; the tongue had been
cut out "with signs of high temperature."

Another incision began in the abdominal area and progressed
toward the tail, where it was perfectly skinned back, revealing
the absence of mammary glands, reproductive organs, anus and
intestines.

However, the most curious detail was that a veterinarian took an
interest in the case and was authorized to visit the site on
Monday. Oddly, he informed the Diez family that the animal's
left ear had been cleanly cut away with signs of heat
manipulation, despite the fact that the ear could be clearly
seen in the videotape.

MORE CASES

Another strange case was recorded on the property of Macach=EDn-
area cattleman Pedro Miller, located some 15 km southeast of
Macach=EDn. The police paid a cursory visit to the visit
accompanied by a veterinarian.

The animal, a red heifer, was found dead in a strange position:
spread out on its four extremities. It also betrayed the
customary incisions in the mouth area and the ears.

Finally, a new case emerged last week on a field belonging to
the Kuperschmidt family, some 15 km south of Rivera, where the
strange events affected three steers. The reports were confirmed
by the local headquarters of the Prov. of Buenos Aires police,
although no official action was taken. Mystery of the Mutilated
Cows


Ten dead animals were found in a field of La Pampa near Rio
Colorado, missing their tongues, eyes and udders, and showing no
signs of having bled. There are no tracks whatsoever in sight.
Professionals have not offered an explanation. All manner of
hypotheses are being aired and even urban and rural legends have
returned.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.











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             Re: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:05:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:03:17 -0400
Subject: Re: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt - Maccabee


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:20:21 +0200
 >Subject: More Revelations On Kreskin's Stunt


 >Source: Alan Boyle's 'Cosmic Log' on MSNBC,

 >http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?cp1=3D1

 >Go to the page for audio link and photo of the debased Kreskin!

 >Stig

***

 >LATEST UPDATES


 >"We amassed a crowd last night... I took about a thousand
 >witnesses. Literally using the power of suggestion, I created
 >such an expectancy that 41 people very strongly hallucinated
 >UFOs in the sky," he told me. You can hear him explain it
 >himself in this audio clip [link] from KVBC-TV in Las Vegas.

 >Kreskin also said that a TV crew caught a glimpse of a greenish
 >glow in the sky just after 11 p.m. =97 and although he doesn=92t think
 >the glow marked an alien visitation, he nonetheless claims that
 >the glimpse could qualify as "the largest sighting in history,
 >because thousands of people saw it on TV."

 >The bottom line is that Kreskin believes he delivered on his
 >self- fulfilling prophecy, even though there was nothing
 >substantial to the "sightings."

 >"I think I keep my money, and I'll be able to eat," he said.
 >Note to self: Watch out for the fine print when you're betting
 >against the Amazing Kreskin. What do you think? [Link]

I think Kreskin is a crock... and he still has to prove that his
created "sighting" is the "largest sighting in history". As
proof of this he uses that fact that it was shown on TV. and
"thousands" of people saw it.

Well, guess what: that was not the first sighting to be shown on
TV. During the 'Bubba' flap in Gulf Breeze (1990-1992) there
were several times when TV crews filmed/videotaped Bubba.

Many of those sightings were witnessed by dozens of people and
shown on TV later.   It is my recollection, however, that at
least once and maybe twice the TV was live.

One of the TV tabloid shows of 11 years ago - A Current Affair -
had a reporter down in GB to see what was going on, to laugh at
the witnesses, if possible, and entertain the audience at the
expense of the GB witnesses. However, she became a witness.  How
many millions (not thousands) of people saw that TV show?

The ABC network featured a Bubba sighting in the early spring of
    1992 (note sure of date)  in a TV show on "weird stuff."  How
many millions of people saw that? A Japanese news crew in late
spring of 1991 videotaped Bubba.  How many millions saw that TV
footage?

Bottom line:  Kreskin has not proved his claim, that the Largest
sighting in history would occur at his whim.

(Note:  Fatima may have been the sighting with the largest
number of on-site witnesses.)








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:10:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak


New subscriber here and yes a skeptic. Anyhow, the Battle of LA
pic recently mentioned here has had the same 'analysis' done
before by who I believe is the webmaster of the Iowa MUFON
website. At least this is what he claimed at the time. The
'analysis' may still be there.

What I have found suggests that this story is nothing more than
blatant misrepresentation of a military flub.

I also have found a scan on the web of the same pic which
suggests the photo has been altered before appearing on the
Rense website. Due to this I am in the process of procuring a
fresh print of the original photo. Who may have done this
alteration is unknown.

The URL for what I have found is:

http://www.geocities.com/nib68/html/labatt.html

Please understand I provide this in the interest of stopping the
perpetuation of what I feel is a fraud and is not intended as
any outright slam of particular individuals.








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                    Re: History Channel's 'Roswell: Final

From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:03:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:12:55 -0400
Subject: Re: History Channel's 'Roswell: Final


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:50:07 EDT
 >Subject: History Channel's 'Roswell: Final Disinformation'
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines. I have just finished
 >watching, 'Roswell: Final Declassification'. It would appear the
 >History Channel has been getting some pressure for its airing of
 >many hours of UFO/ET documentaries, most of which are quite
 >good.

 >Now we have this. I hope the researchers on this List will take
 >this documentary apart piece by piece as quickly as possible and
 >post their views far and wide.

 >I am deeply suspicious of the sudden availability of the "new
 >archive material" and the timing of its release.


There is a 3 page letter from me to the History Channel rebuking
them in specifics about a previous show they did about Roswell.
With Michael Shirmer and others saying foolish things.

I wasn't able to view the show last night because the US History
Channel isn't shown in Canada. Should have a copy next week
though. I suppose I will be asked about it on the Art Bell show
Tuesday night (Wednesday morning) 3AM-6AM Atlantic Daylight Time
4 hours ahead of Pacific DT.

The HC response, 3 months later, not even signed, was well we
can't please everybody!! Dealt with none of my objections.

Remmmember the HC just buys these shows from production
compnaies. Perhaps Kevin can tell us who they were.

Stan Friedman







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                      Re: Last Night's Tragedy - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:14:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:16:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy - McCoy


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:21 EDT
 >Subject: Last Night's Tragedy
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I am violating one of the rules that Jerry Clark has laid down,
 >which is never write a letter in anger... well, write, but don't
 >send it until you have a chance to calm down. Sage advise that I
 >normally take.

 >But last night...

 >The Anti-History Channel...

 >Really...

Yeah, that whole thing was pathetic. Sorry you had to go though
it.

 >I only watched the first few minutes, as they talked about
 >exclusive access to recently declassified top secret
 >documents...

 >Well, no. There was nothing in those boxes that had ever been
 >classified as top secret. They hadn't been recently declassified
 >and their access wasn't exclusive. In fact, this whole thing is
 >my fault. I had been chasing these documents for five years (and
 >I have the various letters to prove it), and I was the one who
 >told NARA they had the material. Someone working at NARA called
 >the producers after NARA began to index the material because I
 >wanted to see it. Anyone who knew it was there could have seen
 >it.

 >And the exclusive, classified tape of Gerald Anderson...

Well, disinformation by the History Channel, I was absolutely
put aback by the seeming layering of "Crash Test Dummies"
"Re-entry Shapes", "Balloon Tests" ad nausium.

Kevin it was a hatchet job worthy of '60 Minutes' when they are
bashing general aviation. The only thing missed was "Swamp Gas"

 >I'm sure that FUFOR recognized it because it was part of their
 >project to video tape all the Roswell witnesses. I know that
 >part of that tape was used in Russ Este's documentary, Roswell
 >Remembered. He arranged with FUFOR to use part of it.

 >So, I gave up watching it and decided to vent my anger here.
 >I'll bet Karl could pick apart everything that was wrong with
 >this show. And I don't know why I listen to what producers say.
 >I stood in a green room for one of the talk shows and heard one
 >of the other pro-UFO witnesses (an abductee) ask if Phil Klass
 >was going to be on the show and the producer said, No. She had
 >to know that Klass was in the building. I got even with her by
 >saying that none of us was going to go on. She turned white, but
 >we did go on. Maybe we all should have walked.

I _never_ trust the media, I've been in the newpaper business
some and hated it. when I was in aviation they were a bunch of
gouls and  muckrakers. I have a long story about Sam Donaldson
and the airtanker business. Yeah, you should have walked, but
then they may have made you and the others look worse.

 >So now I feel a little better and report that I did get a trip
 >to Washington, D.C. out of it, and I did get to go through the
 >boxes without having to spend my own money to get there to do
 >it. I'm glad because there was nothing in those boxes that
 >provided any enlightenment about the Roswell case.


Correct me if I'm wrong... did they use the word 'believer' vs.
reasearcher when refeering to anyone who is a Roswell supporter?


GT McCoy
Experiencer







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               Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware -

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:31:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:19:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware -



 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Source: Disclosure Project

 >http://www.disclosureproject.org/cosmicdeception.htm

 >Cosmic Deception: Let The Citizen Beware

 >Steven M. Greer MD
 >Director, The Disclosure Project
 >http://www.disclosureproject.org

 >Imagine this: It is the summer of 2001, and someone presents you
 >with a script for a movie or book that tells how a diabolical
 >terrorist plot unfolds wherein both 110 story World Trade Center
 >towers and part of the Pentagon are destroyed by commercial jets
 >hijacked and flown into those structures.

 >Of course you would laugh, and if you were a movie mogul or book
 >editor, reject it out of hand as ridiculous and implausible,
 >even for a fictional novel or movie. After all, how could a
 >commercial jet, being tracked on radar after two jets had
 >already hit the World Trade towers, make it through our air
 >defenses, into the most sensitive airspace in the world, and in
 >broad daylight on a crystal clear day, slam into the Pentagon!
 >And this in a country that spends over $ 1 billion a day to
 >defend itself! Absurd, illogical - nobody would swallow it!

And nobody thought the Japanese could Destroy most of the
Pacific fleet.

And Dr.Greer, this is the first time anyone has tried this. Just
how do you think there is a conspriacy. The ATC (Air Traffic
Control) folks were, like the early Radar operators on Oahu -
"Really corporal, it's just a flock of Seagulls." totally
surprised. We didn't have standing air patrols then, Reagan
National has traffic in and out every day, in effect,"At Dawn We
Slept".


 >Unfortunately, there are some of us who have seen these scripts
 >- and of far worse things to come - and we are not laughing.

I'm not amused, either Greer.

 >One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies it that
 >maybe - just maybe - people will take seriously, however
 >far-fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy,
 >para- governmental and transnational entity exists that has kept
 >UFOs secret - and is planning a deception and tragedy that will
 >dwarf the events of 9/11.

Just what _are_ you saying that 3000 or so of our people were
evaporated or nearly so by a Gummit Plot? If you are then you
are now beyond the pale.(or "pale horse")

 >The testimony of hundreds of government, military and corporate
 >insiders has established this: That UFOs are real, that some are
 >built by our secret 'black' shadowy government projects and some
 >are from extraterrestrial civilizations, and that a group has
 >kept this secret so that the technology behind the UFO can be
 >withheld - until the right time. This technology can - and
 >eventually will - replace the need for oil, gas, coal, ionizing
 >nuclear power and other centralized and highly destructive
 >energy systems.

Well, my cousin on the USS Cole was obviously attacked by
members of the Illumnati? (She is still on the Cole, I might
add) she was 20  ft from the blast when the Bilderburgers hit.

 >This 5 trillion dollar industry - energy and transportation - is
 >currently highly centralized, metered and lucrative. It is the
 >stuff that runs the entire industrialized world. It is the
 >mother of all special interests. It is not about money as you
 >and I think of it, but about geo-political power - the very
 >centralized power on which the current order in the world runs.
 >The world is kept in a state or roiling wars, endless poverty
 >for most of Earth's denizens and global environmental ruin, just
 >to prop up this evil world order.

Quite frankly, I think that our civilization is doing quite well
thank you,  and if you think that Osama Bin Laden and the
Jihadistanis  would be better, fine, maybe they would entertain
your idea of Beneficent Spacepeople (or B.S. for short) or,
simply put, behead you for being a non-beleiver.

Got Evil?

As far as I can see, we are engaged in a fight of Barbarians
v.s. Civlization. (Note I am not anti-Arab, or anti-Moslem, I
have read Rumi and Kayyam, and books by the Sufi author Idres
Shah, (his daughter is Sariah Shah) I knew and know several
Arabs, one of my greatest schoolteachers was a Iraqi-born guy
named Shadeem Dykh. I even, may have some middle asian blood due
to a physical feature I have.(anatolian ridge)

 >As immense as that game is, there is a bigger one: Control
 >through fear. As Werner Von Braun related to Dr. Carol Rosin,
 >his spokesperson for the last 4 years of his life, a maniacal
 >machine - the military, industrial, intelligence, laboratory
 >complex - would go from Cold War, to Rogue Nations, to Global
 >Terrorism (the stage we find ourselves at today) to the ultimate
 >trump card: A hoaxed threat from space.

Well. we seem to have pulled India and Pakistan back from the
brink - if what you are implying sir is that we, not Bin Laden
have killed all those in the World Trade Tower by some sort of
plot, and we are now to attempt to kill peace-loving helpful,
Benifecent Spacepeople? or start a war with a race that franky
could have their way with us (and just might) yup, I really
believe that.

 >To justify eventually spending trillions of dollars on space
 >weapons, the world would be deceived about a threat from outer
 >space, thus uniting the world in fear, in militarism and in war.

 >Since 1992 I have seen this script unveiled to me by at least a
 >dozen well-placed insiders. Of course, initially I laughed,
 >thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched. Dr. Rosin gave
 >her testimony to the Disclosure Project before 9/11. And yet
 >others told me explicitly that things that looked like UFOs but
 >that are built and under the control of deeply secretive 'black'
 >projects, were being used to simulate - hoax - ET-appearing
 >events, including some abductions and cattle mutilations, to sow
 >the early seeds of cultural fear regarding life in outer space.
 >And that at some point after global terrorism, events would
 >unfold that would utilize the now-revealed Alien Reproduction
 >Vehicles (ARVs, or reversed-engineered UFOs made by humans by
  ARVs? forgive me but is this related to the abduction problem?
or is it Ailen Replica Vehicles as in the Trafalmadorian "sport
model" -down to the Flathead Ford V-8 powerplant <g>.

This is beginning to sound awful Bill Cooperish.

The cultural fear of other life may come from CISCOP more than
yer average  Babtist or Lutheran, (I do have a fantasy remake of
"The Day The Earth Stood Still" Where Gort is confronted by a
rock throwing Phil Klass, Lawrence Kraus and Pat Robertson-with
predictable results.)

 >studying actual ET craft - see the book 'Disclosure' by the same
 >author) to hoax an attack on Earth.

 >Like the movie Independence Day, an attempt to unite the world
 >through militarism would unfold using ET as the new cosmic
 >scapegoat (think Jews during the Third Reich).

ET could make us the concentration camp residents too.

 >None of this is new to me or other insiders: The report from
 >Iron Mountain, NY, written in the 1960s, described the need to
 >demonize life in outer space so we could have a new enemy. An
 >enemy off-planet that could unite humans (in fear and war) and
 >that would prove to be the ultimate prop for the trillion dollar
 >military-industrial complex that conservative Republican
 >President and five star general Eisenhower warned us about in
 >1961 (no one was listening then, either...).
 >
 >So here is the post-9/11 script - one that will be played out
 >unless enough people are informed and the plan can be foiled
 >because they will be unable to fool a sufficient number of
 >citizens and leaders:
 >
 >After a period of terrorism - a period during which the
 >detonation of nuclear devices will be threatened and possibly
 >actuated, thus justifying expanding the weaponization of space -
 >an effort will ramp up to present the public with information
 >about a threat from outer space. Not just asteroids hitting the
 >Earth, but other threats. An extraterrestrial threat.

Excuse me your paranoia is showing. While I am dubious about the
money spent to develop a space defense system, it is apparent
that there are Bad Men (Churchill) in the world that will gladly
use a nuclear missle against us if they had one.

It s obvious that Bin Laden would smoke NY again if he had one.

 >Over the past 40 years, 'Ufology', as it is called, combined
 >with a mighty media machine, has increasingly demonized ETs via
 >fearsome movies like Independence Day, and pseudo-science that
 >presents alien kidnappings and abuse as a fact (in some circles)
 >of modern life. That some humans have had contact with ETs I
 >have no doubt; that the real ET contact has been subsumed in an
 >ocean of hoaxed accounts I am certain.

Ah, what about Spielburg's movies, heck, Men in Black had good
ET's (however, I won't look at cockroaches the same way again)

 >That is, real ET events are seldom reported out to the public.
 >The Machine ensures that the hoaxed, frightening and
 >intrinsically xenophobic accounts are the ones seen and read by
 >millions. This mental conditioning to fear ET has been subtly
 >reinforced for decades, in preparation for future deceptions.
 >Deceptions that will make 9/11 look trivial.

Odd you should use the term "phobic" and given the abuction
phenom, Benifecent Spacepeople seem to _not_ have our best
interests at heart.

 >I write this now because I have recently been contacted by
 >several highly placed media and intelligence sources that have
 >made it clear to me that hoaxed events and story-lines are
 >imminent that will attempt to further ramp up the fear machine
 >regarding UFOs and ET s. After all, to have an enemy, you must
 >make the people hate and fear a person, a group of people, or in
 >this case an entire category of beings.

Just like the Jihadistanis hate and fear the west? Yet come
here to benefit from our Freedoms?

 >To be clear: the maniacal covert programs controlling UFO
 >secrecy, ARVs and related technologies - including those
 >technologies that can simulate ET events, ET abductions and the
 >like - plan to hijack Disclosure, spin it into the fire of fear,
 >and roll out events that will eventually present ETs as a new
 >enemy. Do not be deceived.

Hijack? how dare you sir, the events of 9/11 were real done by a
real enemy who are lead by a truly Bad Man.

Sometimes reality hurts.

I resent your analogy a true disservice to the people who are
dead, would you feel different if one of your children or spouse
died in the Homicide in New York or Washinton?

 >This hogwash, already the stuff of countless books, videos,
 >movies, documentaries and the like, will attempt to glom onto
 >the facts, evidence and first-hand insider testimony of The
 >Disclosure Project, and on its coattails, deliver to the world
 >the cosmic deception that falsely portrays ETs as a threat from
 >space. Do not be deceived.

Well I agree with the hogwash part.

<snip>

Dr Greer, you have done  great disservice with this paraniod
rant, here we are trying to figgure out what is going on and you
think that the New World Order has you targeted. Quite frankly,
I don't think the Club of Rome plans it days around you or the
Disclosure Project. You know, some of your efforts were on
target, some of your witnesses were great others, well, part of
the problem.

This is a sad commentary on the state of Ufology, we cannot get
any where with this sort of Lo! There! thinking. Obvioiusly Dr.
Greer is going off on a tangent that few should go.

Having young relatives in Harm's way (very literally) this B.S.
about conspiracy is in the realm of Bill Cooper. Disclosure may
go down in flames but Greer may have shot himself down like the
WW 1.Ace Roland Garros (fr.) unlike Garros, I think Greer's
Fokkers are imaginary.

GT McCoy








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   Jun > Jun 14

                     Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Bassett

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:02:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:21:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Bassett


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:21 EDT
 >Subject: Last Night's Tragedy
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Good Morning, All -

 >I am violating one of the rules that Jerry Clark has laid down,
 >which is never write a letter in anger... well, write, but don't
 >send it until you have a chance to calm down. Sage advise that I
 >normally take.

 >But last night...

 >The Anti-History Channel...

 >Really...

 >I only watched the first few minutes, as they talked about
 >exclusive access to recently declassified top secret
 >documents...


 >So, I gave up watching it and decided to vent my anger here.


Kevin,

I really wish you had watched this documentary in full and
written a complete response to each and every aspect of this
damaging film.

It's not your fault the producers have created a very bad, and
potentially damaging piece of propaganda.  However, you are
probably the best person to rip it apart and show why.

There are some political developments moving forward right now
which are promising with media possibilities. This grotesque
piece of nonsense will be used by some media to justify
intransigence.

Please consider an extensive response directed at the History
Channel and some Internet publications.


Regards,

Steve Bassett









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                      Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:41:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:24:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Velez

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:21 EDT
 >Subject: Last Night's Tragedy
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >I am violating one of the rules that Jerry Clark has laid down,
 >which is never write a letter in anger... well, write, but don't
 >send it until you have a chance to calm down. Sage advise that I
 >normally take.

 >But last night...

 >The Anti-History Channel...

 >Really...

 >I only watched the first few minutes, as they talked about
 >exclusive access to recently declassified top secret
 >documents...

 >Well, no. There was nothing in those boxes that had ever been
 >classified as top secret. They hadn't been recently declassified
 >and their access wasn't exclusive. In fact, this whole thing is
 >my fault. I had been chasing these documents for five years (and
 >I have the various letters to prove it), and I was the one who
 >told NARA they had the material. Someone working at NARA called
 >the producers after NARA began to index the material because I
 >wanted to see it. Anyone who knew it was there could have seen
 >it.

<snip>

Hi Kevin,

Don't have a stroke... I'm about to give you a well earned
'kudos' for this post. :)  Your 'character' rating just went up
several notches. Plus, you caught me just as I was about to
compose a scathing review of that 'government propaganda film'
we were all exposed to last night.

Thanks for coming forward and speaking up. I was wondering just
how much the participants knew about what kind of a presentation
that was going to be, and your post answered my question.

The program was pure BS piled high on more BS from start to
finish. I'm not going to detail _all_ of the lies, omissions and
blatant transgressions here. It would take 50+ page post to do
so. They lost me the moment they claimed that Project Bluebook
was initiated in the late 40's, with no mention at all of
Project Sign (and it's findings) or even *Project Grudge. (That
replaced Project Sign when the chief pingoo's at the Pentagon
were unsatisfied with the findings of 'Sign.' - That UFOs
represented an "extraterrestrial" phenomenon.)

It was _all_ historically inaccurate, and a mere vehicle for the
government to sell their 'party-line' on Roswell. I guess
we're never going to get the truth from them. This clinches it.
The US disclosure project has about the same chance as a snow
ball in Hell of succeeding against this kind of _ingrained_
lying and resistance. One of the reasons I opted to go over
their heads and appeal to the broader international community.

Well done Mr. Randle. The world needed to hear from you and you
came through 'first class' and with flying colors. Your candor
is _greatly_ appreciated.


John Velez








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren

From: Larry Warren <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:51:36 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:29:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:25:02 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

 >>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:12:16 +0100 (BST)
 >>From: Larry Warren? <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds Part 2
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Good Morning, List, Larry, All -

 >I have no desire to become caught in a quagmire of debate on the
 >Larry Warren's involvement, or noninvolvement, in the Bentwaters
 >case. I will, however, make a couple of comments here.

<snip>

Hi De-Hi to all on the List,

Thanks Kevin for the fair and ballanced response! Let me just
say that at some point on the tape we recorded with Col. Halt,
he asked me, "What night were you involved, there were three?

I'm really not trying to win any popularity contest in this
field, and have never tried. However, I'm not a fraud. Although
my perception of the events as they happened to me could be
wrong. On that point I would have to agree with yourself or
anyone with a critical view of my or any other account from a
Bentwaters witness.

Halt told us somthing else that day... "I think you were meddled
with and you are not alone." And, "When this all comes out I
think that you will have alot of company."

Weird and I can only guess what he meant, and like all the folks
on this List, we are still waiting.

Bentwaters is complex and is not the case to choose for a quick
fix, like some debunkers in the U.K. would like it to be.

I also respect the fact that folks like you and Stan have your
hands full with Roswell, but perhaps one day we can get you guys
to sink your teath into Bentwaters. It is also the real deal, and
would not be a waste of any good researchers time.

Lastly, I'm not out for battle with you, and am just glad
to try my hand in this forum.

Kevin , on an unrelated note, I recall that your a fan of horror
films as am I, check out Dog Soldiers - a little british flick, that
has a UFO event feel, and yet has nothing to do with the
subject. Its scary as hell!.

Enough of this, its Friday. Lets all go for a pint!

Cheers to all,


Larry Warren
in Beatleland!








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   Jun > Jun 15

                          Secrecy News -- 06/14/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:01:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:34:19 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/14/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 53
June 14, 2002


**      INTELLIGENCE BUREAUCRACY LAID BARE
**      "INAPPROPRIATE" INFO FOUND ON ARMY WEB SITES
**      BILL WOULD BLOCK DISCLOSURE OF CHEMICAL SITE INFO
**      MONSIEUR CHOUCHANI


INTELLIGENCE BUREAUCRACY LAID BARE

At any given moment, U.S. intelligence officials are probably...
attending a committee meeting. Like other government
bureaucracies, the U.S. intelligence community has standing
committees on everything from employee diversity and records
declassification to the granting of awards for meritorious
performance.

The organizational structure and procedures that define the
intelligence bureaucracy are set forth in Director of Central
Intelligence Directives (DCIDs, pronounced "D-skids"), dozens of
which have been newly disgorged by CIA and obtained by Secrecy
News.

The Directives provide authoritative guidance on security
policy, management of intelligence databases, communications
with congressional committees, and preparation of the annual
intelligence budget, among other important topics. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/dcid.htm


"INAPPROPRIATE" INFO FOUND ON ARMY WEB SITES

"The U.S. Army had publicly accessible Web sites that contained
inappropriate information... in contravention of Army Web
Policy," according to a recent Defense Department Inspector
General audit report.

Between June and August of last year, 77 publicly accessible web
sites were found to contain information on Army operational
plans and other data deemed sensitive, the Inspector General
found.

"The Army must prevent the disclosure of sensitive movements of
military assets or personnel," the report stated.

See the June 5 Inspector General report, entitled "Information
System Security: Army Web Site Administration, Policies, and
Practices" here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/armyweb.pdf


BILL WOULD BLOCK DISCLOSURE OF CHEMICAL SITE INFO

A bill introduced in the Senate last week would restrict public
access to information about worst-case accident scenarios at
chemical facilities. The current availability of such
information, according to the bill's sponsor, Senator
Christopher Bond, puts communities at increased risk of
terrorist attack.

Environmentalists have argued that disclosure of accident
scenarios is essential to enable communities to work to mitigate
the risk of such accidents.

Seizing one horn of this dilemma, however, Senator Bond
concluded that "The threat from terrorist attack now outweighs
the benefits of making this information public."

See Senator Bond's June 5 introductory remarks here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/s060502.html

See his bill, "The Community Protection From Chemical Terrorism
Act" (S. 2579), here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/s2579.html


MONSIEUR CHOUCHANI

Monsieur Chouchani is the (assumed) name of a mysterious Jewish
teacher of uncertain origin who taught Talmud, philosophy, and
mathematics to a small number of distinguished students in post-
World War II Europe and elsewhere.

Emmanuel Levinas, the French Jewish philosopher who introduced
Heidegger to France, called Chouchani "a marvelous master."

Elie Wiesel described his initial 1947 encounter with Chouchani
in "Legends of Our Times" (Chapter 10). He was a "dirty,"
"hairy," and "ugly" "vagabond" who accosted and berated him in
Paris in 1947, and then became his mentor. Wiesel wrote of him
again in his memoir "All Rivers Run to the Sea" (pp. 121-130).

Aside from some "indecipherable manuscripts" cited by Wiesel,
Chouchani (or Shushani) left no body of work.

"His birth and his life are sealed in enigma," according to his
gravestone in Montevideo, Uruguay, where he died in 1965.

A French journalist named Salomon Malka wrote a 1994 book about
him, entitled "Monsieur Chouchani: L'enigme d'un maitre du XXe
siecle," which has just been reissued. It may be of interest to
a few. See:

http://www.kodechonline.com/index.html?p5474.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
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   Jun > Jun 15

               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Novak


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
 >Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb


The object may be a military radar target. They have washed
ashore up North of there a few times.


http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/nball.htm


=====

We aren't afraid to lie. To get to the truth. Skeptics Tricks








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              Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:38:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Tonnies


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
 >Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

<snip>

 >The smooth, metallic ball was at least 3 feet in diameter and
 >weighed a couple hundred pounds or more. Aside from a series of
 >numbers stamped on its slightly dimpled surface, the sphere
 >offered few clues as to its origin.

I don't like the line in this story about taking it to the scrap
yard. Here's this strange object no one can identify ... and
they're going to throw it out? It's a safe bet this thing is
perfectly terrestrial, but I'd still like to know what it is
before scrapping it.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies







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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 23:04:49 -500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:04:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:51:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

Kevin, List and Readers

<snip>

 >This, I believe illustrates one of the points I have been trying
 >to make about peer review. Here is a case that is solved and yet
 >we are discussing it again.

<snip>

Now that everyone can be a 'publisher' on the 'net, I predict
that this case will still be hotly debated, and figure
prominently in many an 'Authoritive UFO Casebook', 50 years from
now - despite all efforts to  debunk the story.

The fact that "The Cookie Recipe" urban myth is still
circulating, and many will vouch for it's authenticity, speaks
volumes for the refusal of a good story to go away.

I have mentioned this before, but professional UFO investigators
have to distance themselves. There are thousands of barrack-room
lawyers out there, and they will always attract a certain
segment of the population. Yet the legal profession has
established a *certain* amount of credibility (...well, OK! So
maybe this was a bad example!:) ) through a professional
certification board.

Some sort of Professional Association or Committee to establish
professional guidelines and credentials is urgently needed.

Kevin's notion of a "peer review"... that I think will be
difficult. There is an awful lot of noise, and the signals just
get lost. Look at all the other Case Review boards that have
analyzed UFO reports over the years. Each has managed to use a
different signal/noise filter, and ended up being castigated by
large segments of the UFO Community for their choices, and their
conclusions.

It would be interesting though, if all published reports - books,
articles, magazines, and even (...gasp!) TV 'documentaries'
would submit to a peer review before publication. But given the
present climate of funding and egos, I doubt that will ever
happen.

Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson







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                     CI: Symbolic Interpretation of Face

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:08:37 -0400
Subject: CI: Symbolic Interpretation of Face


Cydonian Imperative
6-15-02

See: http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


A Symbolic Interpretation of the "Hominid/Feline" Face
Hypothesis
by Mac Tonnies

1.) Facial Asymmetry

Two dominant (and mutually exclusive) theories have been put
forth to account for the Face on Mars' asymmetry, as seen in the
2001 Mars Global Surveyor image.

Richard Hoagland is a major advocate of the "feline" hypothesis,
in which the eastern (Cliff-facing) side of the Face mesa
represents a lion or similar animal. Although this explanation
may sound dangerously post facto, it must be remembered that
Hoagland made his observation ten years ago based on relatively
poor-quality Viking data.

I contend that the Face's eastern half indeed looks cat-like
(intentionally so or not). I tested the notion by presenting
"blind" viewers with a mirrored photograph of the Face's alleged
"feline" side. In the words of one participant, unaware that he
was looking at a formation on the surface of another planet, "It
looks like a lion."

[image]

The Face "mirrored" to produce "humanoid" and "feline" aspects.
Image courtesy Chris Joseph.

On the other hand, the "feline" resemblance may be fortuitous.
Mark Carlotto has made a provocative case explaining the
"distorted" eastern portion as the result of wasting and sand
accumulation; until ground-penetrating radar reveals whether
Carlotto's proposed accumulation is just that--or a deliberate
protective "casing," as argued by Hoagland and geologist Ron
Nicks--the two-sided Face will remain controversial among
advocates of the Artificiality Hypothesis.

If it turns out that the bifurcated Face is intentional
(assuming for argument's sake that the Face tests positively for
artificiality), what is the message being conveyed? It's
doubtful a civilization would construct a mile-long face without
a compelling cultural reason. Therefore, the symbolic aspect of
the "hominid/feline" Face is presumably far from trivial, and
may be a true "message" from an extraterrestrial intelligence.

2.) Aesthetic/Symbolic Implications

But what are "hominids" and "cats" doing on Mars? What, exactly,
is being represented?

In the "Dawn of Man" sequence in Stanley Kubrick's "2001: A
Space Odyssey," a tribe of luckless protohumans is depicted
living alongside predatory panthers. The protohumans' social
evolution is catalyzed when an alien "monolith" appears,"
inspiring the use of tools and weapons. The hunted become the
hunters. (Humankind's ascent as a tool-using species is
dramatized by the famous scene in which a bone, thrown skyward
by a triumphant ape-man, is juxtaposed with a space station
placidly orbiting the Earth hundreds of thousands of years
later.)

[image]

The western side of the Face resembles a human ancestor such as
homo erectus.

Perhaps the Darwinian saga of "2001" is retold by the hybrid
Martian Face. The fusion of humanoid and feline forms results in
an aesthetic friction between prey and predator; the Face might
represent the advent of intelligence on Earth by drawing forth
images from our evolutionary past.

As an enfolded metaphor, the Face is a subtle but effective
attempt to memorialize our species' origins. If our ancestors
hadn't responded to the threat posed by carnivores, it's
doubtful that intelligence as we know it would have arisen; by
remaining evolutionary spectators, early humans would probably
have gone extinct. By taking an active role in ensuring their
survival, early humans ensured that the challenges posed by
predators (symbolized by the Face's lionesque half) became
catalysts for evolutionary change.

That a human-built space probe took a picture of the Face on
Mars is itself proof of our species' tenacity and
adaptability...as well as a mute reminder that our status as
Earth's dominant species is as fragile now as it was millennia
ago, on the shores of the African savannah.

Humanity has only recently acquired the technology to
exterminate itself; the "message" of the Face--assuming it has
one--comes at an important (and perhaps crucial) juncture.

[image]

A Mayan example of human/cat split-imagery. Image courtesy The
Cydonia Institute.

If the feline interpretation of the Face is correct, how did
"humanoid"and "feline" forms come to be on Mars? Is the Face
evidence that our evolution was observed (or even orchestrated)
by others...? Is homo sapiens the trophy in some bizarre
interplanetary pantheon?

These are questions best dealt with in the arena of cultural
anthropology. Until our definition of SETI is expanded to
include the study of possible artifacts on our solar system,
answers will remain forever elusive.


-end-








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                     Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:53:12 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:10:02 -0400
Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >New subscriber here and yes a skeptic. Anyhow, the Battle of LA
 >pic recently mentioned here has had the same 'analysis' done
 >before by who I believe is the webmaster of the Iowa MUFON
 >website. At least this is what he claimed at the time. The
 >'analysis' may still be there.

 >What I have found suggests that this story is nothing more than
 >blatant misrepresentation of a military flub.

 >I also have found a scan on the web of the same pic which
 >suggests the photo has been altered before appearing on the
 >Rense website. Due to this I am in the process of procuring a
 >fresh print of the original photo. Who may have done this
 >alteration is unknown.

 >The URL for what I have found is:

 >http://www.geocities.com/nib68/html/labatt.html

 >Please understand I provide this in the interest of stopping the
 >perpetuation of what I feel is a fraud and is not intended as
 >any outright slam of particular individuals.


Hi Paul! Thanks for posting this! What response have you had
from the LA Times so far, if any, please? The second photo would
appear to be a more realistic picture of search beams I suppose?
Good luck, we really need that pic to study it! I'd really
appreciate a copy if you do get one, please.

Interesting that balloons are the official possible explaination
for an unidentified object here. Suprising that the balloon
could take direct (or even close) AA hits and stay airborne for
so long? Were any balloon pieces found afterward? Or didn't they
think of that for another decade? ;) Japan denies it launched
balloons, so that should count that explanation out, assuming
naturally, that they are telling the truth!

Those AA gunners must have been real idiots or just paranoid for
shooting at nothing or nothing more than a balloon for all that
time! How I'd love to interview some of these Guys and other
residents of LA from that period!

I certainly don't take opposing views personally, I never do.  I
love intelligent debate and there are usually at least two sides
to every story and one should know all the facts in order to
form an opinion or belief of the truth. After all, isn't that
why we are all here? Seeking the truth!








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               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:04:48 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:54:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Acres


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
 >>Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

<snip>

 >I don't like the line in this story about taking it to the scrap
 >yard. Here's this strange object no one can identify ... and
 >they're going to throw it out? It's a safe bet this thing is
 >perfectly terrestrial, but I'd still like to know what it is
 >before scrapping it.

Alarm bells went off in my head too Mac! What a bizarre thing to
do IMHO!

BTW, thanks for posting on those hoax alien pics! :) And thanks
for posting the interesting info that you do! :)


Regards

Dave








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                       Re: Request For Investigative &

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 01:13:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:57:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative &


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:51:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 ><snip>

 >>>They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic
 >>>disc" ..

<snip>

 >John, List, All -

 >Belief has very little to do with it. The skyhook
 >balloons, made of polyethylene were about 100 feet in
 >diameter and in a sun bright sky would look metallic.
 >Since there was nothing in the background to provide
 >for an estimate of size, nor was there any way for
 >them to judge the height, they assumed something
 >smaller and closer to the ground.

 >The descriptions of the object, taken shortly after the
 >event, however, suggest that they were looking at a
 >balloon. One of the drawings, made by a witness
 >shortly after the event, sure looks like a skyhook
 >balloon. Yes, the records suggest that a balloon could
 >have been over the Godman Army Air Field at the time,
 >but they don't prove it.

 >It is also clear, from the records, that Mantell climbed
 >above 12,000 feet without oxygen, and kept right on
 >climbing, reporting that he was getting closer (which,
 >of course, he was) but the object was still fifty or
 >sixty thousand feet above him when he lost consciousness
 >and his F-51 rolled over into a power dive.
 >There were no indications in the wreckage that he ever
 >regained consciousness and tried to either end the dive
 >or get out of the airplane.

 >This clearly was a tragic accident and the explanation
 >is, a skyhook balloon. The Air Force used Venus, then
 >Venus and a balloon, and finally Venus and two balloons
 >because they were unaware of the skyhook project.

 >Jerry Clark in his massive "The UFO Encyclopedia" Second
 >Edition, (just a quick plug for the book, Jerry) wrote,
 >on page 606, "Though the Skyhook identification is
 >surely correct...) he then explains that Ruppelt was
 >wrong thinking it was launched from Clinton County
 >airport, but came from Camp Ripley.

 >This, I believe illustrates one of the points I have
 >been trying to make about peer review. Here is a case
 >that is solved and yet we are discussing it again.
 >Yes, we must be aware of our history, but if solid peer
 >review existed, then we could move beyond this sort of
 >debate, point to what the peer review had concluded, and
 >use that as a basis for our arguments.

 >I'll say once again, the Mantell case has been solved.
 >Thomas Mantell, a good, competent, and heroic pilot
 >(again I point to his DFC from the Normandy Invasion)
 >saw something he couldn't identify and lost his life
 >trying to get close enough for a good look at it.
 >We now know that it was a skyhook balloon.



Hello Kevin, John, others:

I have to go with Kevin and Jerry on this one.

The Mantell skyhook-saucer earned a place on my personal
"poubelle list" (forgive the French) of discredited sightings.
It comes right before the Frank Scully hoax (Aztec, NM  1948).
Listings are chronological.

My Discredited Sightings List is on the web here:

http://www.larryhatch.net/DISCRED.html

Before anybody calls me nasty names, I repeat that I spent 17
years compiling a catalog of sightings which I consider much
more interesting than these.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:16:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

Paul, I think they are 2 completly different photo's from
different angles! But the beams ending abruptly is still
suspect!


Regards,

Dave








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:01:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:01:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic


Whoops I had one reversed!:(

When I had another look I find you're quite correct! It
certainly looks like one was taken from the other. I did a
trasparent overlay & it seems to match up OK!

I've put a .JPG here:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/dacres/LAufoFAKE.jpg


Humbly yours,

Dave
(quickly wiping egg from face)







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                          The Roswell Embarrassment

From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:42:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:50:16 -0400
Subject: The Roswell Embarrassment


List:

Anyone who knows anything about Roswell could only laugh at the
History Channel's latest "disclosures" this week. The words,
"fraud", "embarrassing" and "joke" come quickly to mind. Well,
it's off to the Southwest again to chase down witnesses which I
know doesn't rise to the level of looking through boxes of crap
with rubber gloves.


Tom Carey










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                  Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Rousell

From: Mark Rousell <mark@markr.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:05 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:47:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Rousell


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:53:12 +1000

 >Suprising that the balloon
 >could take direct (or even close) AA hits and stay airborne for
 >so long?

It would appear that large balloons are surprisingly difficult
to shoot down. See the following article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_161000/161529.stm

 From the website article:


"The balloon remained aloft after two Canadian air force CF-18
fighters fired more than 1,000 rounds of cannon shells into it
off the coast of Newfoundland."


 >Those AA gunners must have been real idiots or just paranoid
 >for shooting at nothing or nothing more than a balloon for
 >all that time!

Paranoid, I think. From what I have read and heard about the
West Coast at that time, paranoia was extreme.


MarkR








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               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Webre

From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:52:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Webre


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Acres
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:04:48 +1000

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
 >>>Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 ><snip>

 >>I don't like the line in this story about taking it to the scrap
 >>yard. Here's this strange object no one can identify ... and
 >>they're going to throw it out? It's a safe bet this thing is
 >>perfectly terrestrial, but I'd still like to know what it is
 >>before scrapping it.

 >Alarm bells went off in my head too Mac! What a bizarre thing to
 >do IMHO!


Hi, guys,

I live and work in this community, and I swim at this beach
[Isle Of Palms, South Carolina]. I wasn't a witness to this
floating ball, however. I can assure you that _nothing_ descibed
in this article - I can readily imagine a volunteer fireman
kicking it like one would kick a tire on a propsective used car
- even loading it into the back of a truck and riding around
with it until it split in half - is in any way bizarre given the
relaxed attitude of this area (and Don Ledger can attest to this).
<g>


My guess is that it some sort of floatation ball used by some of
the bigger fishing rigs off the coast. But if it _was_ the real
thing, I can't see anyone around these parts treating it with
any more reverence. <g>


Best,

Bill








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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #19

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:19:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:56:38 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #19


Alfred's Odd Observation #19 (Saturday -- June 15, 2002)

Monday the tenth saw multiple oddities in reasonably clear
skies. The following Tuesday morning recorded oddities that
numbered in the double digits. On the strength of the previous
two days, Wednesday morning was an early expedition with a
friend (and fellow former professional aviator) to a prime
observation spot out of town where silent sky crawlers, solitary
hovering flashers, and thought quick star streakers punctuated
discussions on Type II Novas, evaporating black holes, the
nature of conspiracy, and the unimaginable hugeness of
everything _else_ when compared to _our_ tiny and near
insignificant artifice.

By Thursday the experience began to become almost mundane as
many objects were seen once again. Friday evening, with
brilliant planets in the sky behind peek-a-boo clouds, I was
pointing them out to astonished dinner guests who admitted to me
that they were indeed puzzling. ".but how about those Mets"!
Finally, There were two, now unremarkable, sightings of the
bizarre this Saturday morning...

...Heavy sigh.

Additionally, the ufologically under-endowed continue to whine
naggingly, insultingly, and incessantly their pompous
projections, too proud prosecutions, and puling pontifications,
inexorably... testing my endurance to confront them (and their
shallow 19th Century philosophies, tired memes, and outdated
world views) via this, now nineteen part, series. Would that I
could point them to just one place, one research point, one
concerted effort of ufological balance and intelligence that
meets these nastily noisome negativists on their own ground,
counters their arguments with arguments based on superior
citation, reasoning, and validity, and hoists the hijacked
mainstream (and specious sensibilities) by its own scientific
petard...

I've found it! Additionally, I've found a new minor god for my
personal pantheon, as well. [g].

As a result of frequently reading UFO UpDates at the very
understated VSN site (www.virtuallystrange.net) and swinging by
the SDI (Strange Days... Indeed) page to get a spin up of what
was going to be on Errol's show tonight, I was re-introduced to
one of the more serious ufologists, a Mr. Jerry Cohen. I'd seen
the name, even visited his (older) site. Ashamed, I just didn't
get it, then. I do now.

I'd always thought that Jerome Clark was the skeptibunky's most
auspicious and able nightmare. I discover that I have to move
Mr. Clark, respectfully, to the second chair! My review of Mr.
Cohen's site suggests that he has a degree of investigative
meticulousness so precise and complete it must have your garden
variety debunker's voodoo beads flying through his agitated
fingers like a slick mechanical snake (spewing its obligatory
dark and steady stream of myopic oaths and self-absorbed
prayers...) in an effort to put an impotent and artless whammy
on him! It's _quite_ a site!

Mr. Cohen confronts the CSICOPian directly and on the
skeptibunkies home turf, exposing the fallacies of its
reasoning, the emptiness of its proclamations, and the liberty
it takes with the facts. Additionally, Cohen gives the ranking
CSICOPian adequate room on his site to rebuke his well supported
contentions, though rebukes, debates or defenses are not
provided in turn by the skeptibunky and so are not forthcoming.
  No surprise there.

Mr. Cohen has been around for a _long_ time so one would think
(especially given the effectiveness and competence of Mr.
Cohen's assertions regarding CSICOPian interests) that there
would be, at least, _some_ reference to Mr. Cohen on the
CSICOPian web site; however, a search for "Jerry Cohen" on
CSICOP's site turns up exactly bupkis -- no mention of him what-
so-ever, rather predictably. Indeed, Mr. Cohen appears
especially OBVIOUS in his perfectly explicable absence..

Mr. Cohen's site is a wonderful hyper-text history of the
ufological and is an excellent single source repository for
detailed and balanced work so complete and detailed that one
could spend absorbed _days_ in it. It is tabbed, indexed,
collated, explained, and referenced so well that it will be
difficult for the interested and openminded individual NOT to be
well informed by the most fascinating and full featured approach
to ufological history this writer has EVER seen! I can't be
effusive ENOUGH!

Errol Bruce-Knapp is to be commended once again for providing a
solid platform for the competently expressed ufological, and a
button goes up to Mr. Cohen's site from my own as soon as
possible and with all deliberate speed.

That's enough. I remain watching the skies. Read _on_!

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                        Please Check This out, ASAP!

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:38:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:18:29 -0400
Subject: Please Check This out, ASAP!


I just found this URL linked/posted on the SciFi.com's Bulletin
Board (where I've just begun posting my suite of messages on the
topic of "History as Prologue:  'The Flying Saucer Conspiracy'")
-- in their "LEFT FIELD - The Paranormal and the Unexplained"
section:

Mark Hall (mhall@disclosureproject.org)

Co-ordinator Disclosure Project (UK)
www.disclosureproject.org.uk









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                 Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:15:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:21:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Maccabee


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:17:01 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:52:33 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

<snip>

 >>but what we really need is a good print from the
 >>files of the newspaper to work with.

 >I agree Dr. I have never done anything like this, but I suppose
 >one would merely write a reqest for a copy of the photograph?
 >Unless a LA list member wants to help out on this one?

 >Will it still exist in their archives, I wonder?

I should think that sometime in the last 60 years someone would
hav e made a search for a print. The files of the newspaper is a
possibility.... Also, was it the Bettman Archive where the Roswell
pictures were found? That would be another possibility.








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                        Bryant FOIA Appeal - 05-15-02

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:44:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:23:44 -0400
Subject: Bryant FOIA Appeal - 05-15-02


TO:   Deputy Archivist (ND)
       U. S. National Archives and Records Administration
       College Park, MD  20740-6001

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
       3518 Martha Custis Drive
       Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  June 15, 2002

This constitutes my formal appeal pursuant to Subsection (a)(6)
of the U. S. Freedom of Information Act as regards the decision
delivered to me by James R. Mathis's letter of June 3, 2002,
which withheld portions of your agency's FOIA case file on my
FOIA appeal of Sept. 14, 2001.

In redacting the identity of the three agencies to which your
FOIA staff has forwarded the requested documents, Mr. Mathis has
misapplied FOIA exemption No. (b)(2), which reads: "...related
solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an
agency."  The identities of the third-party agencies have
nothing to do with the internal rules or practices of NARA.

NARA has an obligation to collecting, preserving, and
disseminating the nation's "essential evidence."  This decision
fails to uphold that commitment.

I note that the material provided by Mr. Mathis's letter
neglected to include ANY of the NARA-generated correspondence
sent to me in response to my letter of Sept. 14, 2001.  If he
intended to omit those letters from his June 3 response, I
hereby appeal that omission -- on the grounds that it leaves an
incomplete historical record of the subject case file.

As you know, NARA is required by statute to respond to this
appeal within 20 working days -- as per 5 U.S.C. =A7 552(a)(6).
Failure to do so will result in the initiation of litigation
before the United States District Court for the District of
Columbia.

If you wish to discuss any aspect of this appeal, please do not
hesitate to contact me. Thank you for your cooperation.




LARRY W. BRYANT
Director, Washington, D.C., Office of
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief of http://www.ufocity.com

Ryan S. Wood, Chief Researcher for the website of
http://www.majesticdocuments.com

NOTE:  A signed printout of this e-message-formatted letter is
being sent to you via regular U. S. Mail.








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                     Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:35:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:26:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:21 EDT
 >Subject: Last Night's Tragedy
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >And the exclusive, classified tape of Gerald Anderson...

 >Really.

 >I'm sure that FUFOR recognized it because it was part of their
 >project to video tape all the Roswell witnesses. I know that
 >part of that tape was used in Russ Este's documentary, Roswell
 >Remembered. He arranged with FUFOR to use part of it.

 >So, I gave up watching it and decided to vent my anger here.
 >I'll bet Karl could pick apart everything that was wrong with
 >this show. And I don't know why I listen to what producers say.
 >I stood in a green room for one of the talk shows and heard one
 >of the other pro-UFO witnesses (an abductee) ask if Phil Klass
 >was going to be on the show and the producer said, No. She had
 >to know that Klass was in the building. I got even with her by
 >saying that none of us was going to go on. She turned white, but
 >we did go on. Maybe we all should have walked.

 >So now I feel a little better and report that I did get a trip
 >to Washington, D.C. out of it, and I did get to go through the
 >boxes without having to spend my own money to get there to do
 >it. I'm glad because there was nothing in those boxes that
 >provided any enlightenment about the Roswell case.


The pre-show hype made a big deal out of the "unidentified metal
object." When I saw the flat, triangular box, I immediately had
a strong psychic impression that it contained either a Mogul-
style Rawin target or a large slice of very old pizza. My first
impression proved amazingly accurate. Eat your heart out,
Kreskin! :)

I don't recall hearing the smooth-talking narrator mention any
particular connection between "The Unidentified Metal Object"
and Roswell. They also quickly flashed on the screen what they
said were routine record logs from the Roswell air base showing
(not unsurprisingly) records of routine activities. This went by
so fast that I'm really not sure what I was looking at - some
hand-printed ledger entries of something or other. If this was
the important "evidence" they made it out to be, you'd think
they would have slowed down and explained a bit what was flashed
on the screen.

One point I'm very confused on is why these documents still
exist at all. I was under the impression that documents on the
daily routine at military basis were usually destroyed after a
few years.  At least, that was the claim the Air Force was
making when they were giving Congressman Steven Schiff the run-
around. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that these routine documents
have been preserved for 50 years, while all documents on the
extraordinary event itself have disappeared? Whether it was a
Mogul balloon or not, the base press release on the "capture of
a crashed disc," Marcel's trip to the Brazel ranch, the
forwarding of wreckage from Fort Worth to Wright Field by a
specially-assigned plane, and General Ramey's subsequent press
conference were certainly extraordinary events that I would
think would be documented somewhere. Yet there seems to be not a
trace left of any documents concerning these events.











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               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:50:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:28:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Kaeser


 >From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

<snip>

 >My guess is that it some sort of floatation ball used by some of
 >the bigger fishing rigs off the coast. But if it _was_ the real
 >thing, I can't see anyone around these parts treating it with
 >any more reverence. <g>

Glad there was someone there to keep an eye on this. I was
surprised by the flurry of coverage Friday morning and the lack
of any real comment later. My only question regarding it being a
floatation device is the alleged weight. An object that size
would likely have not been able to float if it, indeed, weighed
a couple hundred pounds.

According to one report there were numbers on the side of the
object, but no writing. I think that would rule out any exotic
explanation.


Steve








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:11:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:42:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 23:04:49 -500
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:51:29 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >Kevin, List and Readers

 ><snip>

 >>This, I believe illustrates one of the points I have been trying
 >>to make about peer review. Here is a case that is solved and yet
 >>we are discussing it again.

 ><snip>

 >Now that everyone can be a 'publisher' on the 'net, I predict
 >that this case will still be hotly debated, and figure
 >prominently in many an 'Authoritive UFO Casebook', 50 years from
 >now - despite all efforts to  debunk the story.

 >The fact that "The Cookie Recipe" urban myth is still
 >circulating, and many will vouch for it's authenticity, speaks
 >volumes for the refusal of a good story to go away.

 >I have mentioned this before, but professional UFO investigators
 >have to distance themselves. There are thousands of barrack-room
 >lawyers out there, and they will always attract a certain
 >segment of the population. Yet the legal profession has
 >established a *certain* amount of credibility (...well, OK! So
 >maybe this was a bad example!:) ) through a professional
 >certification board.

 >Some sort of Professional Association or Committee to establish
 >professional guidelines and credentials is urgently needed.

 >Kevin's notion of a "peer review"... that I think will be
 >difficult. There is an awful lot of noise, and the signals just
 >get lost. Look at all the other Case Review boards that have
 >analyzed UFO reports over the years. Each has managed to use a
 >different signal/noise filter, and ended up being castigated by
 >large segments of the UFO Community for their choices, and their
 >conclusions.

Hi Bruce,

First... Dick Hall has posted _several_ excellent proposals for
a ufological 'oversight' board or panel that have all been
uniformly ignored. A good place to start might be to go back in
the UpDates archives, dig up Dick Halls' proposals, and maybe
try to 'fine tune' and hopefully implement one of them. No need
to reinvent the wheel. Dick Halls' proposals are a great head
start on an already difficult task.

You wrote:

 >It would be interesting though, if all published reports - books,
 >articles, magazines, and even (...gasp!) TV 'documentaries'

Oh don't be such a snob, Bruce. Where else can the average
person get to see and hear the Mantell family? (For instance)
When hunting for information, _any_ source is a good one. TV
_can_ be every bit as useful and valuable for gleaning
information as print or any other media.

I'm not Stan Friedman or Kevin Randle or Wendy Conners etc. I
don't have the same access to the 'live' witnesses that they do.
Paltry few on the List do. When something like the Mantell piece
shows up (where the whole family is assembled and interviewed)
it is more than mere mind-numbing TV made for couch potatoes.
Something like the Mantell interviews can become a bona fide
historical document. With as much weight and importance as any
other record of history.

And please don't tell me that you've never enjoyed a belly laugh
at one of the gags in a Simpson's cartoon! If not, you have my
deepest sympathy. :)

 >would submit to a peer review before publication. But given the
 >present climate of funding and egos, I doubt that will ever
 >happen.

When I was working with Budd Hopkins, both Greg Sandow and
myself hoped to get Hopkins, Mack, and Jacobs to participate in
various joint-research projects. Mostly to no avail because of
the walls that we consistently ran into along the way.

We realized pretty early on what a mission-impossible it would
be to get these men (_any_ group of ufological researchers for
that matter) to share/combine their research materials so that
it could all (at least) be cataloged as a body of work that
spans a quarter century - and includes the reports of Lord knows
how many people.

Your point is well taken and I do not envy anybody who takes on
the task of trying to 'unite' these rabidly independent
individuals. I will support, in any way I can, any effort to
create a true peer review panel/board for ufology.

Check out the fine proposals for such an entity that was put
forward by Dick Hall in some of his most recent posts. After you
read them I'm certain you'll ask yourself how you manged to miss
them the first go-round.  :)


Regards,

John Velez








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                             Hello, Again, Hello

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:10:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:44:31 -0400
Subject: Hello, Again, Hello


Hi Gang,

I'm baaaaack.....

Actually I just signed up here at the urging of Jim Kelly, to
see if I could catch up on things ufological. I've been
'retired' from the field for almost a decade, and in that time
have read next to nothing, except UFO Magazine. So I'll probably
just hang back and lurk for a while.

It's good to see some of my old acquaintances on here. Hi
Jerome, Kevin, Stan, Bruce, etc....

==JJS==










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                     Mortellaro Press Release - 06-15-02

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:10:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:32:51 -0400
Subject: Mortellaro Press Release - 06-15-02


Gentlemen and Ladies;

This coming November, Budd Hopkins and Jim Mortellaro will be
making a presentation on several issues, among these will be the
"Project Study" being done by a major Northeastern US medical
group and Jim Mortellaro's case study. Both Hopkins and
Mortellaro will be presenting. The event will take place in New
York City, hoping that there is New York City still there, as
opposed to a smoldering a mass of molten, radioactive material.

Just kidding. It's in my nature.

We hope to be able to present at least some very preliminary
findings by the medical group, if not a presentation by one of
the physicians. If not ready by then with sufficient data with
which to present a case, the group will defer the presentation
for another meeting in the future.

Please keep the November timeframe in mind, and if you are in
NYC, please consider attending. Formal dates will be decided in
the near future.

SPECIAL REQUEST FROM THE PHYSICIANS:
This is a last call to any researchers who are interested in
participating on a consultative basis, in this study. One has
already been selected, a second is about to be decided on.
Should you have suggestions or any input you wish to make,
please write in confidence to:

StudyProjectA@AOL.COM

There will be a response by one of the physicians, to each
email. It may take up to thirty days or so, so please be
patient.


Jim Mortellaro








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                     Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:35:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:02:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Friedman


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:35:22 -0500

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:21 EDT
 >>Subject: Last Night's Tragedy
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>And the exclusive, classified tape of Gerald Anderson...

 >>Really.

 >>I'm sure that FUFOR recognized it because it was part of their
 >>project to video tape all the Roswell witnesses. I know that
 >>part of that tape was used in Russ Este's documentary, Roswell
 >>Remembered. He arranged with FUFOR to use part of it.

 >>So, I gave up watching it and decided to vent my anger here.
 >>I'll bet Karl could pick apart everything that was wrong with
 >>this show. And I don't know why I listen to what producers say.
 >>I stood in a green room for one of the talk shows and heard one
 >>of the other pro-UFO witnesses (an abductee) ask if Phil Klass
 >>was going to be on the show and the producer said, No. She had
 >>to know that Klass was in the building. I got even with her by
 >>saying that none of us was going to go on. She turned white, but
 >>we did go on. Maybe we all should have walked.

 >>So now I feel a little better and report that I did get a trip
 >>to Washington, D.C. out of it, and I did get to go through the
 >>boxes without having to spend my own money to get there to do
 >>it. I'm glad because there was nothing in those boxes that
 >>provided any enlightenment about the Roswell case.

 >The pre-show hype made a big deal out of the "unidentified metal
 >object." When I saw the flat, triangular box, I immediately had
 >a strong psychic impression that it contained either a Mogul-
 >style Rawin target or a large slice of very old pizza. My first
 >impression proved amazingly accurate. Eat your heart out,
 >Kreskin! :)

 >I don't recall hearing the smooth-talking narrator mention any
 >particular connection between "The Unidentified Metal Object"
 >and Roswell. They also quickly flashed on the screen what they
 >said were routine record logs from the Roswell air base showing
 >(not unsurprisingly) records of routine activities. This went by
 >so fast that I'm really not sure what I was looking at - some
 >hand-printed ledger entries of something or other. If this was
 >the important "evidence" they made it out to be, you'd think
 >they would have slowed down and explained a bit what was flashed
 >on the screen.

 >One point I'm very confused on is why these documents still
 >exist at all. I was under the impression that documents on the
 >daily routine at military basis were usually destroyed after a
 >few years.  At least, that was the claim the Air Force was
 >making when they were giving Congressman Steven Schiff the run-
 >around. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that these routine documents
 >have been preserved for 50 years, while all documents on the
 >extraordinary event itself have disappeared? Whether it was a
 >Mogul balloon or not, the base press release on the "capture of
 >a crashed disc," Marcel's trip to the Brazel ranch, the
 >forwarding of wreckage from Fort Worth to Wright Field by a
 >specially-assigned plane, and General Ramey's subsequent press
 >conference were certainly extraordinary events that I would
 >think would be documented somewhere. Yet there seems to be not a
 >trace left of any documents concerning these events.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is loads of
old information that is still highly classified.

The FBI stated way back in 1949 that the army and Air Force
consider the topic of flying saucers as Top Secret. We have seen
very little formerly Top Secret UFO material.

With the exception of the 156 TOP SECRET UMBRA UFO documents
'Released' by the NSA 16 years after the request and with all
but 1 or 2 lines not whited out, we have essentially NO TOP
SECRET CODE WORD UFO documents.

The Eisenhower Library had a drawerful of TS Code word stuff.
The Truman Library had half a file drawer. The Kennedy Library
had 10 drawers.

It is clear that much high security material doesn't get sent to
the Presidential Library at the end of the term, but gets
carried over. There is a lot of Truman era NSC material at the
Ike Library, for example.

The CIA insisted, even after appeal, that they had no files on 4
Briefings that W.B. Smith (DCI) had given Ike between Nov. 4,
1952 and January 9, 1953. I don't believe it for a moment.


Stan Friedman







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              Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:11:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:04:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Tonnies


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:50:33 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

<snip>

 >According to one report there were numbers on the
 >side of the
 >object, but no writing. I think that would rule out
 >any exotic
 >explanation.

At least there were no hieroglyphs.  Or, worse yet,
pieces of "novelty tape" holding this thing together.

--Mac








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:27:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:15:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:11:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

<snip>

 >First... Dick Hall has posted _several_ excellent proposals for
 >a UFOlogical 'oversight' board or panel that have all been
 >uniformly ignored. A good place to start might be to go back in
 >the UpDates archives, dig up Dick Halls' proposals, and maybe
 >try to 'fine tune' and hopefully implement one of them. No need
 >to reinvent the wheel. Dick Halls' proposals are a great head
 >start on an already difficult task.

However, it was Richard's hard line approach to Ufology that
caused him to sever his involvement in the MUFON Journal. Much
of this field is driven by the profit motive or faith, and not
the pursuit of scientific integrity (which we probably couldn't
agree on anyway).

Bruce Hutchison wrote:

 >>It would be interesting though, if all published reports - books,
 >>articles, magazines, and even (...gasp!) TV 'documentaries'

John Responded:

 >Oh don't be such a snob, Bruce. Where else can the average
 >person get to see and hear the Mantell family? (For instance)
 >When hunting for information, _any_ source is a good one. TV
 >_can_ be every bit as useful and valuable for gleaning
 >information as print or any other media.

Of course the information you receive from that source is
filtered by a director and producer, who often make decisions
that help to increase viewers (and thus profits). I don't view
television documentaries as worthless, because (as you point
out) there is often no other way for the public to become
exposed to the stories being told. But I view them with
reservations and understand that I'm likely getting the
producer's view of 'reality'. You may recall the NOVA program
on Alien Abductions, and many of those who took part felt (to
some degree) betrayed when it took a very skeptical stance.

At this point, I know a number of researchers who are leery of
taking part in any documentaries, because they are often used
for material that profits the producer and does little to help
the genre. There is also a feeling that attempting to educate
the public, while the genre is primarily a form of
entertainment, is a waste of resources and time.

In the past, we've outlined goals that might help to lend
credibility to the field, but IMO there's little chance that you
could get two or three of us to agree on anything major. A
clear definition of the field, rules of evidence, and peer
review would help. But, they're unlikely at this point.

My 2-cents.


Steve








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               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:23:35 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:17:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Ledger


 >From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Acres
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:04:48 +1000

 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
 >>>>Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >><snip>

 >>>I don't like the line in this story about taking it to the scrap
 >>>yard. Here's this strange object no one can identify ... and
 >>>they're going to throw it out? It's a safe bet this thing is
 >>>perfectly terrestrial, but I'd still like to know what it is
 >>>before scrapping it.

 >>Alarm bells went off in my head too Mac! What a bizarre thing to
 >>do IMHO!

 >I live and work in this community, and I swim at this beach
 >[Isle Of Palms, South Carolina]. I wasn't a witness to this
 >floating ball, however. I can assure you that _nothing_ descibed
 >in this article - I can readily imagine a volunteer fireman
 >kicking it like one would kick a tire on a propsective used car
 >- even loading it into the back of a truck and riding around
 >with it until it split in half - is in any way bizarre given the
 >relaxed attitude of this area (and Don Ledger can attest to this).
 ><g>

 >My guess is that it some sort of floatation ball used by some of
 >the bigger fishing rigs off the coast. But if it _was_ the real
 >thing, I can't see anyone around these parts treating it with
 >any more reverence. <g>


Hi Bill,

I got pretty relaxed there myself on several occasions, if
memory serves. Are we sure this wasn't a draft beer container
that washed up on the beach? Or some sort of exotic Gripple
container?


Best,

Don








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:50:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:19:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Young


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:53:12 +1000

<snip>

 >Those AA gunners must have been real idiots or just paranoid
 >for shooting at nothing or nothing more than a balloon for
 >all that time!

David:

They may have been firing at a balloon for a long time because
they were used to it. Please see the following about training
for a WWII antiarcraft artillery unit, the 443rd bn, at the
beach in SC:


"FORT FISHER, NORTH CAROLINA

On 15 September 1942, the 443rd moved in convoy through
Blacksburg, Virginia to Fort Fisher, North Carolina. It was
headed for a week's practice firing of the new weapons at both
air and ground targets. The T-28-E1s were lined up shoulder to
shoulder along Fort Fisher's Atlantic Coast Firing Range for
firing at gas filled balloons"


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Weber

From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:54:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:23:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Weber


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:50:33 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 ><snip>

 >>My guess is that it some sort of floatation ball used by some of
 >>the bigger fishing rigs off the coast. But if it _was_ the real
 >>thing, I can't see anyone around these parts treating it with
 >>any more reverence. <g>

 >Glad there was someone there to keep an eye on this.


No problem, Steve,

I'm usually at the beach this time of year, and I've always got
my eyes peeled. Any more of these floating, steel orbs wash up,
(or any noteworthy orbs whatsoever) and I'll make a report to
the List. My life for science!


Best,

Bill








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                     Gerald Anderson & The US Navy SEALS

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:34:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:27:23 -0400
Subject: Gerald Anderson & The US Navy SEALS


List, All -

While we're still reeling from Thursday night's tragedy, I
thought it would be nice to take a little break.

I had mentioned in the UFO Frauds rant that Gerald Anderson was
caught in a number of lies and can now independently reinforce
that.

Someone asked me for Royce's web address (and Royce, I thought I
had bookmarked it but apparently haven't) and I clicked on the
Wall of Shame bookmark. It brought up the Navy SEALs web, so I
thought I would see if Gerald had made their Wall of Shame.

Yes, he's there.

Gerald Francis Anderson of Springfield, MO.

And no, he wasn't a SEAL.

For more information, or for a little fun, check out:

http://cyberseals.org/reportsa.htm


KRandle








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                  Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints

From: Kalani Hanohano <kalani_hanohano@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:10:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:35:25 -0400
Subject: Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints



Hey, Jim Spieser,

Been wondering how you were doing. Glad you're up and kicking.
Sorry your only contact with the UFO field for the last 10 years
was UFO Magazine, but hey.....

Are you sure you want to get back into this mess? There are dead
carcasses all over this field. Thankfully, most of them haven't
been mutilated.

Let me offer these tidbits so you can catch up with what you
have missed during the last 10 years:

Good News: UFOs still being sighted.
Bad News:  Most of us older geezers are losing our sight.

Good News: Proliferation of the triangular-shaped object.
Bad News:  Some of them may be ours. No reports of Spam-shaped
            objects, although if memory serves, I may have heard
            a report or two of these out of Hawaii.

Good News: Jacques Vallee has basically removed himself from
            overt participation in the field.
Bad News:  Jacques Vallee has basically removed himself from
            overt participation in the field.

Good News: There are a lot more ufo and fortean publications
            available.
Bad News:  Can't afford Flying Saucer Review. I think they
            charge $3 million a year now. I cast a glance at
            UFO Magazine, but rarely buy it. Miss INFO Journal
            and Pursuit. But did buy the latest Sports
            Illustrated Swimsuit edition featuring Yamila. Told
            my wife that she was "unidentified" and I needed to
            "identify" this anomaly. She gave me that look.

Good News: Still a small coterie of researchers who see value
            in the earlier spewings from John Keel.
Bad News:  Keel has grown older and crankier. Last seen taking
            a ride in a Fugo balloon.

Good News: Still receiving reports of UFO occupants.
Bad News:  They seem to be getting uglier by the year. Praying
            Mantis-types, reptilian sightings and that recent
            green dwarf guy seen outside of Buenos Aires. If
            they start reporting "Predator" sightings, I'm outta
            here. What happened to those cool Orthon guys with
            hippy-hair and trippy Venusian mantras and the one
            piece suits? Now, that was disco!

Good News: Lots of new, younger researchers entering the
            ufological village.
Bad News:  Many don't have the historical ufological knowledge
            to make educated guesses. They jump to conclusions.
            They mistake their fantasies for reality. They listen
            to rap music. They watch too much TV.

Good News: Abductions continue to be reported.
Bad News:  They seem to be cutting back on anal probes,
            focussing primarily on impregnation across the nation,
            harboring emaciated hybrid children in their space day
            care centers. I wonder who's covering the costs for
            the day care and formula?

Good News: Ufologists continue to meet at symposiums, meetings
            and backyards.
Bad News:  The cost of steak, beer, wine, cheese and all the
            other attendant goodies continues to escalate,
            suggesting the downfall of such meetings in the near
            future. My prediction is for smaller backyard
            functions offering sushi, tofu and other Eastern
            sundries.

Good News: Ufologists continue to argue.
Bad New:   Their arguments continue to escalate the usage of
            scatalogical terms. E.B. White is turning over in his
            grave.

Good News: Lots of interesting ufo photos and video images being
            taken.
Bad News:  Video imaging software renders all of them
            questionable.

Good News: Spielberg is producing a multi-hour series on
            abductions for Sci-Fi Channel.
Bad News:  He's had a difficult time trying to grow up. Perhaps
            he'll treat this matter seriously. But if I see
            reference to any of his movies in this series, I'm
            turning to ESPN.

Good News: I'm done with my sarcasms.
Bad News:  I'm trying desperately to hold the rest of them in.

Welcome back my good man. If you're looking for peace of mind,
you're in the wrong place. If you're looking for adventure,
bring up a chair and sit at the table. You need to catch up? You
have one of the finest archives of ufological contributions
available.

Jim, you've just re-entered The Twilight Zone.


Kalani Hanohano
Denver, Colorado








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   Jun > Jun 16

                                Scoop Marks?

From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:28:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:41:31 -0400
Subject: Scoop Marks?


Listers,

My wife recently healed from a prolonged bout with a terrible
skin rash that covered her face, arms and legs. There were many
treatments over the course of at least one year. Among many
other treatments, she finally ended up getting injections of
steroids and antibiotics into each infected area.

About a week later, and as she said, "over night", she developed
a dime-size scoop mark, about 1/4 inch deep, on her left forearm.
This dimple literally appeared in less than 48 hours.

The thing really is weird looking. The doctors told her that in
cases of prolonged skin infection, the skin is eaten away in the
body's attempt to heal the infection. It is quite common, they
say, and can happen even with infected bug-bites, and even when
the patient doesn't know the infection exists. The dimple
looks, well, exactly like web pictures of scoop marks... like it
was created with a mellon-baller.

Frankly, I have not read much about scoop marks. I've always
taken it somewhat on faith that these things are inexplicable,
and of course, associated with abduction. Suppose someone gets a
bug-bite, scratches and ignores it, it later develops infection,
and then seemingly without explanation - over night - the person
awakes with a scoop mark? I know this may not explain all of
them, but it could explain many.

Are there any dermatologists or someone with specific medical
knowledge on the list that can vouch for this?


Best,

Bill









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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On

From: David Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:58:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:50:23 -0400
Subject: Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On


Under a massive banner headline 'Flying saucers - After 50 years
the cover-up conspiracy goes on....." Britain's Sunday Express,
today (June 19, 02), carried a double-page feature on the UFO
Disclosure Project.

In my opinion it is a fair report - definitely angled that a
conspiracy of silence _does_ exist.

The story - set in white on black - and by Hamish Mackenzie
strongly features John Callahan a former senior accident
investigator with the US Federal Aviation Authority who was
involved in the Japan Airlines Flight 1628 UFO sighting in
November 1986.

The UFO - a huge ball, four times bigger than than a 747
aircraft, with lights running round it - was observed performing
acrobatics, by the flight crew and ground radar.

Afterwards Callahan - who told his story at the Washington press
conference - convened a meeting of those involved which he
claims was attended by three anonymous CIA men who confiscated
all the audio, radar recordings, printouts and documents of the
sighting and "told us this had never happened and we had never
had this meeting."

But Callahan didn't disclose that he had earlier made copies of
all the evidence.

The newspaper reports that business development consultant
Stephen Bassett plans to run as an independent in the 8th
Congressional District of Maryland election in November, on the
UFO Disclosure Ticket, in a bid to bring the issue before the
U.S. Congress.

Mention is made in the report about some dissension in
Disclosure ranks by some who feel alien contact stories should
not have been included. But even moon-walker Edgar Mitchell, who
is no longer a Disclosure witness but still a supporter, is
quoted as saying about UFOs "I have discussed the matter with
some 'old timers' who do have first hand knowledge."

Writer Mackenzie ends his report thus:

"What is clear is that a large number of individuals have come
forward and made statements whose implications, if true, are
profound. If the witnesses are who they say they are - and are
found to be lying - then we should be very concerned about the
type of individuals who fly our planes, control air traffic, man
the missile silos and protect our communities. If, on the other
hand, the witnesses are telling the truth then - no matter how
extraordinary - this is a serious issue"

I am told a follow up article by Mackenzie is planned soon.


The Disclosure Project's website is
www.disclosureproject.org







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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:35:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:03:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:50:51 EDT
 >Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:53:12 +1000

 ><snip>

 >>Those AA gunners must have been real idiots or just paranoid
 >>for shooting at nothing or nothing more than a balloon for
 >>all that time!

 >David:

 >They may have been firing at a balloon for a long time because
 >they were used to it. Please see the following about training
 >for a WWII antiarcraft artillery unit, the 443rd bn, at the
 >beach in SC:

 >"FORT FISHER, NORTH CAROLINA

 >On 15 September 1942, the 443rd moved in convoy through
 >Blacksburg, Virginia to Fort Fisher, North Carolina. It was
 >headed for a week's practice firing of the new weapons at both
 >air and ground targets. The T-28-E1s were lined up shoulder to
 >shoulder along Fort Fisher's Atlantic Coast Firing Range for
 >firing at gas filled balloons"


Before we get too heavily into the balloon theory - what balloon
and where are the reports that they brought down a balloon or
that it was finally identified as a balloon? Where's the
balloon?

This AA firing should be taken seriously, for if memory serves,
someone was killed as a result of the AA fire which eventually
comes back down - somewhere. Am I wrong about this last
statement?

Surely someone would have been taken to task over this if it was
a real event? Where's the military reports? These things don't
happen without some sort of accounting.

Bob, your mention of the Fort Fisher's Atlantic Coast Firing
Range of firing at gas-filled balloons was probably for AA
target practice and not to learn how to shoot down balloons.


Best,

Don Ledger








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   Jun > Jun 16

              Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:30:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:00:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Lehmberg


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:23:35 -0300
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Acres
 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:04:48 +1000

 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>>>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:19:57 +0200
 >>>>>Subject: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>><snip>

 >>>>I don't like the line in this story about taking it to the scrap
 >>>>yard. Here's this strange object no one can identify... and
 >>>>they're going to throw it out? It's a safe bet this thing is
 >>>>perfectly terrestrial, but I'd still like to know what it is
 >>>>before scrapping it.

 >>>Alarm bells went off in my head too Mac! What a bizarre thing to
 >>>do IMHO!

 >>I live and work in this community, and I swim at this beach
 >>[Isle Of Palms, South Carolina]. I wasn't a witness to this
 >>floating ball, however. I can assure you that _nothing_ descibed
 >>in this article - I can readily imagine a volunteer fireman
 >>kicking it like one would kick a tire on a propsective used car
 >>- even loading it into the back of a truck and riding around
 >>with it until it split in half - is in any way bizarre given the
 >>relaxed attitude of this area (and Don Ledger can attest to this).
 >><g>

 >>My guess is that it some sort of floatation ball used by some of
 >>the bigger fishing rigs off the coast. But if it _was_ the real
 >>thing, I can't see anyone around these parts treating it with
 >>any more reverence. <g>

 >Hi Bill,

 >I got pretty relaxed there myself on several occasions, if
 >memory serves. Are we sure this wasn't a draft beer container
 >that washed up on the beach? Or some sort of exotic Gripple
 >container?


Well - it's apparently not the Grippler himself, though he does
bear a striking resemblence to it. Like a washing machine and a
fire plug had babies... ya' know? [g].


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 16

                 Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:53:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:06:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:50:51 EDT
 >Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:53:12 +1000

 ><snip>

 >>Those AA gunners must have been real idiots or just paranoid
 >>for shooting at nothing or nothing more than a balloon for
 >>all that time!

 >David:

 >They may have been firing at a balloon for a long time because
 >they were used to it. Please see the following about training
 >for a WWII antiarcraft artillery unit, the 443rd bn, at the
 >beach in SC:

 >"FORT FISHER, NORTH CAROLINA

 >On 15 September 1942, the 443rd moved in convoy through
 >Blacksburg, Virginia to Fort Fisher, North Carolina. It was
 >headed for a week's practice firing of the new weapons at both
 >air and ground targets. The T-28-E1s were lined up shoulder to
 >shoulder along Fort Fisher's Atlantic Coast Firing Range for
 >firing at gas filled balloons"


Once again, Mr. Young, you blithely ignore anything remotely
peripheral to the invalid point you've seized upon in the
pathetic little struggle you seemingly enjoy in trying to hang
on to your disintegrating past and encapsulated world view.....

A reading of the story, eyewitness accounts, and some pretty
astonishing photographs leave "balloons" as a mere substitute
for Venus predictably employed, by you, as an excuse you must
thinly stretch to keep your castle of debunkery in increasingly
turbulent air.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 16

                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 03:57:47 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:23:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:50:51 EDT
 >Subject: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:53:12 +1000

 ><snip>

 >"FORT FISHER, NORTH CAROLINA

 >On 15 September 1942, the 443rd moved in convoy through
 >Blacksburg, Virginia to Fort Fisher, North Carolina. It was
 >headed for a week's practice firing of the new weapons at both
 >air and ground targets. The T-28-E1s were lined up shoulder to
 >shoulder along Fort Fisher's Atlantic Coast Firing Range for
 >firing at gas filled balloons"


Interesting Bob, thanks! Maybe they got the idea for this
training exercise from that night in LA as it happened much
earlier that year on 25 Feb!

Hey ! When were the first blimps used? Maybe the inspiration for
them came from this unpopable, unstopable & unconfirmed Japanese
balloon?








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               After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:51:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:51:32 -0400
Subject: After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On


Keyed by ebk from a scan via David Haith & Mark Hall


Source: The Sunday Express

Sunday June 16, 2002
p. 20-21

Focus by Hamish Mackenzie

After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On...


On a raised platform beneath the galleried ceiling of the
prestigious National Press Club in Washington, DC, a group of
men and women, all experts in their chosen field, waited
patiently as the large hall filled with more than 150
journalists from newspapers and TV stations all around the
world.

For almost two hours, one by one, more than 20 "eye-witnesses" -
nuclear missile silo commanders and employees of large
corporations - described their experiences to the assembled
press. Some spoke of inexplicable encounters with unidentified
lights and objects in the air, others of the crashes of strange
craft of "unaccountable, un-elected and illegal projects". Yet
others even claimed to be involved with the "back-engineering of
advanced technology".


Many expressed frustration at their failure to be taken
seriously. All referred to a world-wide conspiracy to keep the
truth from governments and public alike. As each individual
spoke there was hushed attention, as each sat down applause
filled the room. At one point a cameraman for a US TV station
was heard to say: "Bloody hell, this is amazing - bloody hell."
and yet, since that day in May w001, the silence has been
deafening.

Last year, the Sunday Express was the first newspaper to publish
an article on the Disclosure Project, a US-Based UFO group whose
stated aim is to press the US Congress for an open hearing. The
group's founder, Dr Steven Greer, claims he is continuing to
gather "deep-insider witnesses" who, if released from their
security oaths, would tell Congress what they know about an
alleged cover-up of the existence of UFOs and extra-terrestrials
as well as the possession of their advanced life-changing
technology.

But one year on, the Project seems nowhere nearer achieving its
goal, despite positive feedback from US Senators and
overwhelming interest from the public via their website. Dr
Greer is now concentrating on a grassroots effort to spread the
word via a global network of representatives.

"This is the best chance we have had in 50 years to find out what
is really going on," say David Williams, on of the Disclosure
Projects UK representatives. Now an IT director in the finance
industry, he is a former crypto-analyst in the Royal Signals,
once based in Whitehall.

"While I was there I had Top Secret clearance, and the
continuous flow of UFO reports that crossed my desk intrigued
me." he says. "They came from everywhere, and I forwarded them
on to various MoD and Government departments.

"I don't know what happened to them after they left me. I have
been trying to find out ever since, and after the 2001 press
conference I decided to get involved with the Disclosure
Project. It only needs the wider public to realise that one of
the witnesses, someone like John Callahan is telling the truth
for the whole thing to be blown wide open."

John Callahan, a former senior investigator with the Accidents
and Investigations Branch of the US Federal Aviation Authority,
is a bluff and imposing presence. His story, like the man, is
hard to dismiss. At the press conference, he recalled how, on
November 18, 1986, the pilots of Japan Airlines Flight 1628,
flying over Alaska, reported they were seeing "a huge ball with
lights running around it... four times as big as a 747". The
sighting was significant because the object was simultaneously
being recorded on ground-based radar at Anchorage Air Traffic
Control. The flight crew and ground radar operators watched as
the UFO performed aerobatics and flew at speeds beyond the
capability of any known aircraft. At one point the captain
expressed concern at the effects the object appeared to be
having on his instruments.

After more than half an hour, the "strange craft" disappeared
and the 747 landed safely.

The following day Mr Callahan attended a hurriedly convened
meeting at the request of Admiral Engen, then Administrator of
the Federal Aviation Authority. This meeting was attend by all
of those directly involved and claimed Mr, Callahan, three
anonymous CIA men. He says these men confiscated all the audio,
radar recordings printouts and documents associated with the
previous day's events and "told us this had never happened and
we had never had this meeting." They never asked anyone if we
had copies, so I never told them I did."

There was a flurry of clicking cameras as Mr Callahan held up
numerous documents and invited the audience to inspect them
later. But many who were at the press conference were bemused at
the subsequent lack of publicity for the event.

"Perhaps the media were taken aback by the seriousness of what
they heard and just did not know how to handle it." David
Williams remarks. "It is surprising no one has even tried to
discredit the witnesses. Why have the big US corporations
[Lockheed Martin, Northrop, Boeing and others] named as part of
the cover-up, not objected and sued?" Only last month the US
newspaper Florida Today contributed to the continuing
speculation on how an event "with testimony designed to be so
compelling the [national] media couldn't possibly freeze it out"
had been left in the cold.

"We were disappointed by not surprised by the limited coverage."
says Dr Greer, an accident and emergency doctor who now devotes
all his time to the Project. "So we took our message direct to
the people - local radio, TV and well-attended public meetings."
Since the press conference, it has emerged that Dr Greer is not
alone in seeking to persuade the US Government to support
disclosure.

Charles Huffer, a US-based UFO researcher, met the then
campaigning Governor George Bush in 2000. Live on CNN, Huffer
secured a promise from Bush that when in office he would 'get
right on to" the UFO issue and tell the people what was really
going on. Once in power this campaign promise has been ignored
and last year one of Huffer's supporters went on hunger strike in
protest.

This year US business development consultant Stephen Bassett
plans to run as an independent in the 8th Congressional District
of Maryland on the UFO disclosure ticket. The election, in
November, is expected to be hotly contested. Bassett's objective
is to win sufficient votes to have a say in bringing the issue
before Congress.

But interest among the general public has also been
considerable. The Projects press conference was broadcast and
watched live over the Internet by almost a quarter of a million
people. "it was the largest Webcast in history." says Dr Greer.

Since then a further million have downloaded a recording of the
even from the Disclosure Project website, which has received
more than six million hits since May last year. Dr Greer reports
that more than 100 new witnesses have come forward, several from
the UK.

"This is not surprising." says Denis Plunkett, head of the
British Flying Saucer Bureau, still an active organisation though
wrongly reported last year to have closed down. "For 50 years I
have been receiving reports from military personnel and police
officers. Most did not want any publicity, they were just trying
to understand what they had seen."

When asked if the Sunday Express could interview a UK witness,
Dr Greer said: "We do not want to reveal any of our new
witnesses now. There will be another press conference later in
the year, which we are planning to broadcast on cable and
satellite TV."

One concern for many observers has been that the Project may not
be as rigorous as it needs to be when screening witnesses. And
there does appear to have been some dissension within the ranks.
Some witnesses feel that the more exotic stories, such as
contact with aliens, should have been excluded.

"There is enough out there - unusual aerial craft that need
explanation." said a source who did not want to be named. And at
least one prominent witness has requested that his name be
withdrawn from the Project as he feels some of the conclusions
being drawn from the testimonies are "a step too far". Edgar
Mitchell, the Apollo 11 astronaut, and one of the few men have
set foot on the moon, is no longer a Disclosure Project witness,
though he continues to support its aids. "I still believe that
governments should open their files on the UFO subject, but we
don't seem to be much closer to that, though likely it will
happen sooner or later." he told the Sunday Express.

"I am not a 'witness' of UFO events either in space or on Earth.
I don't have any first-hand experience but I have discussed the
subject with some 'old timers' who do have first-hand
knowledge."

One of the big tests of the Disclosure Project in the future
will be the quality of the new witnesses and its openness to the
sort of scrutiny it is claiming should be direct at others. The
history of UFO sightings has been tarnished by fabrication - not
just by people seeking attention but even by UFO researchers. In
the past few months, a prominent group has admitted planting
false information to discredit others in an apparent attempt to
prove that the whole UFO phenomenon can be dismissed.

"Is it possible we have been scammed by some witnesses? Yes. Do
I think it likely? No." says Dr Greer, his hackles rising. "We are
not the CIA, we can't afford to run $50,000 background checks on
everyone. Our objectives are to disclose the truth to the public
and persuade Congress to hold an open hearing.

"Over 20,000 letters have gone out from constituents all over
the US to their Congressmen. We have received numerous
expressions of serious interest from Senators. Only last week I
had a Congressman ring and ask us to give him a private
briefing.

"To get a Congressional hearing one of three things will have to
happen," Dr Greer continues. "The media will have to call for it,
or the public need to be heard asking for it, or there has to be
a massive, undeniable UFO event."

What is clear is that a large number of individuals have come
forward and made statements whose implications, if true, are
profound. If the witnesses are who they say they are - and are
found to be lying - then we should be very concerned about the
type of individuals who fly our planes, control air traffic, man
the missile silos and protect our communities.

If on the other hand, the witnesses are telling the truth then -
  no matter how extraordinary - this is a serious issue. "If we
believe them,' says David Williams, "then we have to accept that
we are not alone. Someone is covering u8p and we should want to
know why.

"We may have been deceived by some of our witnesses, but not by
all of them." he continues. "There are too many people who have
seen something they can't explain. Those trying to keep the
secrets rely upon most of us being too busy with our lives to be
bothered. But more and more people are getting interested, and
one day there will be enough to demand that governments tell us
what the know."

o For more information contact David Williams at
Disclosureproject@btinternet.com or visit the Project's website
at www.disclosureproject.org







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   Jun > Jun 17

                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:06:20 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:07:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:35:37 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic


 >"what balloon and where are the reports that they brought down a
 >balloon or >that it was finally identified as a balloon?"


 >"Surely someone would have been taken to task over this if it was
 >a real event?"

The balloon in question was noted in "THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN
WORLD WAR II; DEFENSE OF THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE". An article
available online from the Museum of San Fransisco. The balloon
in question I believe was a common flare balloon and these were
reported fairly often during the war though whether or not all
these reports were correct is unverifiable.

Nowhere in any official accounts are there any mentions of any
objects being "caught" in the spotlights. Only in the
sensationalized versions available from pro ufo sources. The
balloon in question is most likely simply responsible for only
for beginning the whole affair. Concerning the areas proximity
to the ocean and givin that we do not know the prevailing
directions of the winds at the time it is concievable that if
indeed a balloon was shot down it could easily have ended up in
the water never to be found if it was even indeed hit.

The battalions on duty had been berated for their lack of
response to the previous nights attack on Ellwood Oil Field. A
major concern at the time was attack on our west coasts and the
Ellwood attack confirmed these worries and intensified them. The
public was highly agitated as is evident from various accounts
of the period and the reactions to the fiaso by the public
afterwards. Even more nervous would be the AAA units and
commanders berated for, and responsible for, failing to respond
to the previous nights attack. This all resulted in what the
Army eventually admitted was probably a case of jittery nerves
on the part of it's personell.

They were hit with several alerts immediately prior to the
event. They were placed on "Green" alert which means "ready to
fire". Radar which at the time was notorious for it's
unreliability had reported a bogey then lost it. Apparently all
it took was a sighting of "something" over the city and all was
bedlam thereafter. They were apparently taking no chances.

Someone was taken to task, somewhat. The Army. There was much
dickering among the different branches of service as to who was
responsible. None wished to take responsibility for the event.
All sought to distance themselves from direct responsibility and
this further fueled the publics anger and resentment as it
resulted in conflicting reports from these various branches.

This event is not an isolated one. False alarms were recorded
many times and have in a few other instances resulted in similar
barrages though not as spectacular, or close to home as this.

What I find interesting here is the reliance upon the eyewitness
accounts. It is clear from one to the other that none are in
agreement with the others. So how does this constitute reliable
testimony? When even the military observers admitted they were
not sure there was even anything to see and in fact made several
erroneous reports themselves?


I sincerely feel after years of looking into this event that it
is not much more than an appropriation and misrepresentation of
a confusing military mistake in order to perpetuate a myth. With
the finding of the photo clearly showing the difference in the
spotlights I now believe this 99%.









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   Jun > Jun 17

                     Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:11:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:10:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy - Fleming

 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:35:03 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Last Night's Tragedy


 >Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is loads of
 >old information that is still highly classified.

 >The FBI stated way back in 1949 that the army and Air Force
 >consider the topic of flying saucers as Top Secret. We have seen
 >very little formerly Top Secret UFO material.

 >With the exception of the 156 TOP SECRET UMBRA UFO documents
 >'Released' by the NSA 16 years after the request and with all
 >but 1 or 2 lines not whited out, we have essentially NO TOP
 >SECRET CODE WORD UFO documents.

<snip>

This "revelation" of routine Roswell documents preserved for 50
years made me think of something: has anyone ever made an FOIA
request _explicitly_ for the memo General Ramey was photographed
holding at his "saucer-emptying" press conference?

The government cannot very well deny that there is or was such a
memo because it was photographed in Ramey's hand. And after all
this time, they cannot reasonably claim that it has any national
security implications.

I've taken a look at the enlargements of the memo, and the word
"VICTIMS" is pretty clearly legible. The rest of the sentence is
too blurry to make out if it really says "victims of the wreck,"
as some people think. Others have suggested the sentence might
actually read "victims of the Major," possibly referring to
people who were victims of a misconception about the nature of
what was a weather balloon because of Major Marcel's faulty
identification of it as a crashed disc.

If a good copy of the memo itself could be forced out of the
government, nobody would have to guess what it said.







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   Jun > Jun 17

                       Re: Request For Investigative &

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:44:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:15:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative &


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:27:51 -0400

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:11:09 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 ><snip>

 >>First... Dick Hall has posted _several_ excellent proposals for
 >>a UFOlogical 'oversight' board or panel that have all been
 >>uniformly ignored. A good place to start might be to go back in
 >>the UpDates archives, dig up Dick Halls' proposals, and maybe
 >>try to 'fine tune' and hopefully implement one of them. No need
 >>to reinvent the wheel. Dick Halls' proposals are a great head
 >>start on an already difficult task.

 >However, it was Richard's hard line approach to Ufology that
 >caused him to sever his involvement in the MUFON Journal. Much
 >of this field is driven by the profit motive or faith, and not
 >the pursuit of scientific integrity (which we probably couldn't
 >agree on anyway).

<snip>

 >In the past, we've outlined goals that might help to lend
 >credibility to the field, but IMO there's little chance that you
 >could get two or three of us to agree on anything major. A
 >clear definition of the field, rules of evidence, and peer
 >review would help. But, they're unlikely at this point.

 >My 2-cents.


Steve, John, Bruce, and all Listerions from Mysterium,

John, I've been meaning to post today regarding my appreciation
of your post, above, with your support of Dick Hall's
recommendations. For quite some time he and I have communicated
off-List regarding these needed remedies. I also am in strong
agreement with him. In our last post we agreed with our
unfortunate cynicism that, knowing the history of the field over
the last few decades, it seems highly unlikely that the
"scientific but with an open mind - just show me the evidence
other than anecdotal or hoaxed documents - to support your claim
- otherwise you are part of the problem and not part of the
solution attitude" - will form an organization of strength with
respectable standards that earn it enduring credibility - and
able to somehow reduce the amount of ludicrous hucksterism noise
from heavy metal to a mere whisper.

Yeah right, fat chance. I agree with you Steve. Lenin once said "the
masses are asses" and I hate to say it but in some ways at certain
levels of all types of society the people have not developed how to
separate bonafide evidence from BS information by using critical
thought and reason. Many people operate on emotional and uneducated
ignorance, so rhey grasp at the most absurd ideas to lead them. Real
truth is always bypassed by appealing to...well, they are in
conspiracy to deny what we know.

For example, to distimctly see the two very different sides of
the UFO field compare Stan Friedman's post regarding 'Top Secret
Documents' to last week's proclamation of "Cosmic Deception" by
Greer and Sheehan from the Disclosure Project. These Disclosure
folks were bonkers for a long time but now they have become
completely bonkers with their latest explanation of why the Bush
New World Order is evil incarnate and how "the secret team" and
the aliens are manipulating all people on earth.

Stan, just out of curiosity I wonder if in your many lectures
people in the audience bring up the subject? I imagine that now
the "Cosmic Deception" document idea will circulate through the
underground in the netherlands and that a significant number of
audience members may ask you about Greertalk.

Where is the meat in this taco shell from these vegetarians? But
I am sure there are many people eating these up like raw meat.
Don't think, just eat what we are saying like coyotes to raw
steak. Don't look for facts, it is easier to just keep on
eating.

I well imagine that a former UFO lawyer whom we all know from
that NSA case is burning sage and chanting purification mantras
in his crystal pyramid while berobed in the splendid cape worthy
of a cosmic prophet.

The last thing I want to say is in regards to Dick Hall and
MUFON. I was a member of MUFON for 20 or so years. At one time I
believed that MUFON was the organisation that would be the
scientific side of ufology through its research and standards.
Over many years there were a number of events that seemed to
diminish that hope in my mind.

MUFON also has chapters all over the world who hold meetings for
the public. Presenting controversial speakers is a minefield.
Every year there is an annual symposium in some city. Last year
MUFON's standards had dropped so low (even after change at the
top) that I, along with Dick Hall and numerous others were in
disagreemnet with them allowing certain speakers on their
symposium. Dick Hall was critical of their choices, so MUFON
decided to cast him out as an author even though he was a writer
and researcher with very high credibility in the field. Prior to
that I had not renewed my membership.

You had a large organization potentially able to do what many
intelligent people are now calling for in ufology; do the
research and form well founded positions as standards in the
field. Unfortunately many things went astray. They may be beyond
any remedy.

If people want the field to somehow unite between the various
credible researchers and all the legitimate research that still
begs for attention then we had all bettter start chanting for
moolah, the major ingredient needed to get any of this done. Mr.
Bigelow is doing his own thing in his own way. Tonight we all
should start buning sage and chanting the moolah invocation to
materialize what is sorely missing. Please pray or wish to
Mysterium for moolah for all. Please give any multi-millionaires
my email address.


I'll start chanting now,

Josh










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 17

               Re: Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:02:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:18:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints -


 >From: Kalani Hanohano <kalani_hanohano@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:10:32 +0000
 >Subject: Welcome Back Spieser - Some Helpful Hints

 >Hey, Jim Spieser,

 >Been wondering how you were doing. Glad youre up and kicking.
 >Sorry your only contact with the UFO field for the last 10 years
 >was UFO Magazine, but hey.....

 >Are you sure you want to get back into this mess? There are dead
 >carcasses all over this field. Thankfully, most of them havent
 >been mutilated.

Well, I'm not exactly ready to get back IN to it (not without a
pair of hip waders, anyway) but I'd at least like to keep up
with what's happening. I may have something of value to
contribute in a little while....

 >Let me offer these tidbits so you can catch up with what you
 >have missed during the last 10 years:

 >Good News: UFOs still being sighted.
 >Bad News: Most of us older geezers are losing our sight.

I see you still have your teeth though! :-)

 >Good News: Proliferation of the triangular-shaped object.
 >Bad News: Some of them may be ours. No reports of Spam-shaped
 >     objects, although if memory serves, I may have heard
 >     a report or two of these out of Hawaii.

Most of the Spam-shaped objects I've seen work out of CSICOP
headquarters...

 >Good News: There are a lot more ufo and fortean publications
 >     available.
 >Bad News: Cant afford Flying Saucer Review. I think they
 >     charge $3 million a year now. I cast a glance at
 >     UFO Magazine, but rarely buy it. Miss INFO Journal
 >     and Pursuit. But did buy the latest Sports
 >     Illustrated Swimsuit edition featuring Yamila. Told
 >     my wife that she was "unidentified" and I needed to
 >     "identify" this anomaly. She gave me that look.

As long as Saucer Smear is still being published, I'm OK with
the world...

 >Good News: Still a small coterie of researchers who see value
 >     in the earlier spewings from John Keel.
 >Bad News: Keel has grown older and crankier. Last seen taking
 >     a ride in a Fugo balloon.

He could POWER a Fugo balloon!

 >Good News: Still receiving reports of UFO occupants.
 >Bad News: They seem to be getting uglier by the year. Praying
 >     Mantis-types, reptilian sightings and that recent
 >     green dwarf guy seen outside of Buenos Aires. If
 >     they start reporting "Predator" sightings, Im outta
 >     here. What happened to those cool Orthon guys with
 >     hippy-hair and trippy Venusian mantras and the one
 >     piece suits? Now, that was disco!

Like, that was so...Eighties!

 >Good News: Lots of new, younger researchers entering the
 >     ufological village.
 >Bad News: Many dont have the historical ufological knowledge
 >     to make educated guesses. They jump to conclusions.
 >     They mistake their fantasies for reality. They listen
 >     to rap music. They watch too much TV.

And this is different from a decade ago....how?

 >Good News: Abductions continue to be reported.
 >Bad News: They seem to be cutting back on anal probes,
 >     focussing primarily on impregnation across the nation,
 >     harboring emaciated hybrid children in their space day
 >     care centers. I wonder whos covering the costs for
 >     the day care and formula?

Ooh, please tell me they haven't dropped the sperm extractors!

 >Good News: Ufologists continue to meet at symposiums, meetings
 >     and backyards.
 >Bad News: The cost of steak, beer, wine, cheese and all the
 >     other attendant goodies continues to escalate,
 >     suggesting the downfall of such meetings in the near
 >     future. My prediction is for smaller backyard
 >     functions offering sushi, tofu and other Eastern
 >     sundries.

I'll be over at 7. Bringing the poached cous-cous.

 >
 >Good News: Ufologists continue to argue.
 >Bad New:  Their arguments continue to escalate the usage of
 >     scatalogical terms. E.B. White is turning over in his
 >     grave.

Aw, crap.

 >Good News: Lots of interesting ufo photos and video images being
 >     taken.
 >Bad News: Video imaging software renders all of them
 >     questionable.

We still have Kanazawa. (Don't we?)

 >Good News: Spielberg is producing a multi-hour series on
 >     abductions for Sci-Fi Channel.
 >Bad News: Hes had a difficult time trying to grow up. Perhaps
 >     hell treat this matter seriously. But if I see
 >     reference to any of his movies in this series, I'm
 >     turning to ESPN.

I saw the ad for that. "Taken"? Might be decent, if only to keep
the subject matter in the public eye for another year...

 >Good News: Im done with my sarcasms.
 >Bad News: Im trying desperately to hold the rest of them in.

My email is jimspeiser@yahoo.com.

 >Welcome back my good man. If youre looking for peace of mind,
 >youre in the wrong place. If youre looking for adventure,
 >bring up a chair and sit at the table. You need to catch up? You
 >have one of the finest archives of ufological contributions
 >available.

I can see that just from the little I've read so far.

 >Jim, youve just re-entered The Twilight Zone.

Music out, fade to black....

==JJS==






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 17

                           Alien Autopsy Made In?

From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:05:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:21:33 -0400
Subject: Alien Autopsy Made In?


Hello Bruce, Hello List!

Has anybody seen the sci-fi film:

"Uninvited"
England 1997
Directed by: Norman Stone
Story by: Peter Bowker

They showed it here in Germany yesterday on VoxTV in two parts.
The second part is about 100 minutes long. Not long after this
second part started, you are witness of an autopsy performed
by pathologist Dr. Sarah Armstrong (name of the actress in the
film) on a man who came in contact with aliens.

You can see the autopsy at length and later in a video in the
film.

I recommend very much to watch these scenes very carefully, they
surely remind you of something....

Done in 1997 in England...


Kindest regards

Joachim Koch, Berlin








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   Jun > Jun 17

               Re: Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:06:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:24:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On -


 >From: David Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:58:31 +0100
 >Subject: Sunday Express UK - UFO Cover-Up Goes On


 >But even moon-walker Edgar Mitchell, who
 >is no longer a Disclosure witness but still a supporter,


Can someone clarify this for me? What does it mean that he is "no
longer a Disclosure witness"? Why was he a witness in the first
place, and what changed? Did he "un-witness" sometihng?


==JJS==






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   Jun > Jun 17

              CCCRN News: Update - Duncan, BC and Mansfield, ON

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:27:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:01:54 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Update - Duncan, BC and Mansfield, ON



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

June 16, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002

UPDATE - DUNCAN, BC AND MANSFIELD, ONTARIO #2 FORMATIONS

Some initial photos of the 'formation' of randomly downed hay at
Duncan, British Columbia (May 29) have been added to the web
site, from the initial contact (name confidential by request)
and CCCRN field research assistant Tracey Gendron. Some
interesting features worth noting are the semi-circular swirls
in places, clumps of dandelions in the flattened areas still
standing with their white puffy seed heads intact, stretched and
ruptured stalk nodes and colour variations of patches of crop.

A field report by CCCRN field research assistant Joanna Emery
for the similar second 'formation' of randomly downed tall grass
at Mansfield, Ontario (#2, June 11-12) has also been added.
Similar to both the first Mansfield (May 30) and Duncan reports,
two new flattened areas were found June 11 on the landowner's
property as previously reported. A number of additional
flattened areas were subsequently reported on June 12, both on
the landowner's property (tall grass, chives, sand cherry shrubs
and tiger lilies) and in other nearby areas between Mansfield
and Dundas (near Hamilton) including three large roughly
circular areas in a hay field between Camilla and Primrose, said
to look somewhat similar to the Orillia, Ontario formation of
three circles in 2000 (classification as a separate report
pending further investigation). In some areas on the Mansfield
property, layering and bent stalk nodes (up to 90 degrees) and
clumps of dandelions again as at Duncan, many still standing
with their white puffy seed heads intact. While the occurrences
in the surrounding areas were first noticed after thunderstorms
on June 12, the initial new flattenings on the landowner's
property were first seen before that, not after. Photos and
diagrams available soon.

For research purposes, both the Duncan and Mansfield cases are
being classified as 'randomly downed' events, sharing some
characteristics and anomalies of both natural lodging and
'regular' circular or geometric crop formations, so while not
crop formations per se in the usual sense, the study of such
occurrences may nevertheless help in the understanding of the
processes involved in the creation of other (non-manmade) crop
formations, as per studies done by the BLT Research Team and
others.

Also, the next crop circle lecture at Barclay Manor in Vancouver
is June 24, with updates on 2002 reports from Canada, England,
Germany and Holland. Free admission, more information on the web
site.

The web site itself is also being updated, now with more storage
space, data transfer and no advertising, after some technical
problems in getting those fixes done were finally solved.
Further upgrades including new domain name to come in the near
future.

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations /ground studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and farming /media awareness initiatives, in
particular during the prime August /September 'circle season' on
the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
  Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel /Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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   Jun > Jun 17

                                   Blimps

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:57:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:03:54 -0400
Subject: Blimps


Hello All,

Daivd Acres, in a preivous post, wondered when Blimps came into
existence. Here it is, a long withthe general history of
Airships:

http://www.worldwar1.com/sfzepp.htm
GT McCoy
"Up Ship!"








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   Jun > Jun 17

               Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Weber

From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:20:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:06:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb - Weber


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:30:51 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:23:35 -0300
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

 >>>From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Mystery Shrouds Giant Floating Orb

<snip>
 >>>My guess is that it some sort of floatation ball used by some of
 >>>the bigger fishing rigs off the coast. But if it _was_ the real
 >>>thing, I can't see anyone around these parts treating it with
 >>>any more reverence. <g>

 >>I got pretty relaxed there myself on several occasions, if
 >>memory serves. Are we sure this wasn't a draft beer container
 >>that washed up on the beach? Or some sort of exotic Gripple
 >>container?

 >Well - it's apparently not the Grippler himself, though he does
 >bear a striking resemblence to it. Like a washing machine and a
 >fire plug had babies... ya' know? [g].



Hi, Don,

These are being described by various posters to the Rense sight
as oil line cleaners or practice mines.

http://www.rense.com/general26/mys.htm

I'm fairly certain here that Al is correct. It is not the
Grippler himself -- although the resemblance from the picture on
the site _is_ uncanny. In fact, I will make a quick post to New
York this evening to confirm that the Grippler hasn't been
boating recently.


Best,

Bill







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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:58:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention


 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:54:15 -0400

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >><snip>

 >>>They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
 >>>take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
 >>>in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
 >>>I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
 >>>family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
 >>>help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
 >>>interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.
 >
 >>I believe that was an early episode of 'Sightings'. I believe
 >>they went back to the crash site and actually located some small
 >>metallic pieces of the aircraft that had been missed by the
 >>military many years earlier. If someone has the Sightings
 >>publication on UFO subjects, the Mantell case may be one of the
 >>featured items.

 >Also, I received this report from one of my correspondents about
 >the Mantell case which changes my mind about this classic
 >incident...

 >"I spoke with the P-51 pilot about Mantell. This is what he
 >said...

First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with Mantell?
Was he actually at Godman field?

Or is all of this information based upon something that "a" P-51
pilot is commenting on based upon accounts he has seen in the
news or otherwise?

A little clarity would help.

As I recall, Wendy Connors was able to locate some additional
witness reports that were not included in the so called official
Bluebook file on the case. And, as I recall from reading the
reports, they were very interesting for what they did tell.


Cheers,

Robert







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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Letter To The Editor - Sunday Express UK

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 00:42:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:01:25 -0400
Subject: Letter To The Editor - Sunday Express UK


D I S C L O S U R E 2 0 0 3

The 8th District Congressional Campaign of Stephen Bassett

Date: June 17, 2002
To:   Editor
       Daily/Sunday Express
From: Stephen Bassett

I wish to compliment the Sunday Express and Hamish MacKenzie for
the excellent article, "After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy
Goes On..."  This is the kind of coverage the May 9, 2001 press
conference held by the Disclosure Project should have received
from the New York Times, Los Angeles Times and Washington Post.
They chose not to write about this very significant event (the
Washington Times, to its credit, did have a fine article by
Julia Duin).

Disclosure of the extraterrestrial presence by the United States
government is inevitable. Only the timing and tenor of this
event remains to be determined. The public needs to get involved
and create political infrastructure which can represent the
public interest in the process and the outcomes. The Disclosure
Project (www.disclosureproject.org) is an enormous resource your
readers can utilize to quickly get up to speed on these breaking
developments. They should also review the website
www.presidentialufo.com as well as two important and recent
books: 'The Missing Times: News Media Complicity in the UFO
Cover-up' by Terry Hansen and 'UFOs and the National Security
State' by Richard Dolan.

Many initiatives are underway including my candidacy in the
congressional election here in the 8th District of Maryland. As
of this week approximately half of the required signatures have
been collected to obtain a place on the November ballot. Seven
weeks remain until the submission deadline - more than enough
time to collect the balance. Upon certification, for the first
time in history, a candidate directly speaking to the FACT of an
extraterrestrial presence and to the government imposed embargo
on the truth, will be on a congressional election ballot in the
United States.

The Disclosure2003 congressional campaign is a direct outgrowth
of the lobbying work of Paradigm Research Group
(www.paradigmclock.com) and the Extraterrestrial Phenomena
Political Action Committee (X-PPAC - www.x-ppac.org). July 4
marks my sixth year in the activism of disclosure. It has been
an extraordinary experience.

The United States does not hold an exclusive license to control
world changing truths. For various reason the NATO countries and
the Russian Federation have elected to defer to my country
regarding the timing of disclosure. So be it.  Further delay
will only damage public trust in government. The United States
should proceed with a disclosure event in early 2003.

Regards,
Stephen Bassett
Independent Candidate
United States Congress
Maryland 8th District

__________________________________________________

       Transparent government, private citizenry
__________________________________________________

              Campaign Headquarters
              Bethesda/Gaithersburg
             4938 Hampden Lane, #161





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   Jun > Jun 17

                   Re: Ural Alien-Body-Pictures? - Persky

From: Alex Persky <alexvi@mail.ru>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2000 14:35:13 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:20:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Ural Alien-Body-Pictures? - Persky


 >From: Werner Walter <CENAP@addcom.de>
 >Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:10:46 +0100
 >Subject: Ural Alien-Body-Pictures?
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Does anyone know more about the so-called Ural Alien-Body which
 >you can see at:

 >http://www.gufoa.kheta.ge/ural-et.html


Hi,

This is a photo of the so-called "Kyshtymski Karlik" (Kyshtym
Dwarf). In 1997 the Russian magazine "Anomalia" published
Michael Gershtein's (ufo_miger@chat.ru) article "Three dead
bodies and two movies", here is the summary of the article.

It was claimed that the creature was found in 1996 (1997?) at a
graveyard at the village Kaolinovy by the pensioner Ms. Tamara
Prosvirina. The village is situated near the small Ural town of
Kyshtym. She claimed that she received "a telepathic command" to
go to the graveyard where she found the creature and took it
home. It lived there for a time being and Tamara fed it with
sour cream and milk. Her neighbors and relatives also saw the
living creature, they said that it's color was white and it's
extremities were very mobile because of the special texture of
it's joints. After a while Tamara's neighbors noticed that she
had a severe psychic disease and she was admitted to mental
hospital. The creature was locked up in her house and died
there. After some time it became mummified.

While Tamara was at hospital her house was rod by Mr.Nurtdinov
who found the dead body and seized it up. He said that at that
time the body had a smell of cologne. He dried the body a little
and put the mummy into his refrigerator.

After a while the thief was arrested by Kyshtym militia. Eugeny
Mokichev who was an investigator from Kyshtym found the body in
the cold-store and could not understand what was it. Was it a
victim of an illegal abortion, or misscarriage, or it was a
murdered ugly child? Nobody was astonished by the appearance of
the creature because Kyshtym was situated at the center of the
radioactive contamination zone which had appeared after an
incident at the radioactive wastes store in Cheliabinsk-40 in
1957.

Captain Vladimir Bendlin initiated an investigation and shot a
video of the body. Stanislav Samoshkim who was a local
pathologo-anathomist (the term?) concluded that the body was not
a human being's one. Dr. I.Ermolaeva confirmed his conclusion
and said "there are no children with so strange texture of the
body in existence".

So militia didn't have a ground for the future investigation
because there was no corpus delicti and if there was no corpus
delicti then there was no crime. Capt.Bendlin addressed to a
local "ufologist" by name Ms. Galina Semenkova who was living in
town of Kamensk-Uralsky. She announced that she knows all the
truth about the death humanoid because she had a telepathic
contact with extraterrestrials. She said to Bendlin that this
was an extraterrestrial from Alfa Centauri who had been sent to
the Earth to establish contact with us. In any case, she took
the mummy into her possession and ordered everyone to keep
silence so as not to make Alfa Centaurians angry.

The dead body passed from Ms.Semenkova to another owner, then to
another one and was subsequently lost. The last owners found by
the journalist by name Yuri Konshin said that the mummy was
taken away by a very high-ranking guys from FSS (KGB). But it
was a pretext because FSS could capture the body when it was in
the possession of Kyshtym militia. Moreover, soon after that an
ad appeared in Internet saying that there was "an alien body
from Russia" for sale, in English.

Also Gershtein wrote that the same dead body had been seen about
twenty years ago near the town of Salinas in Puerto-Rico





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   Jun > Jun 17

                    Teleportation Of Laser Beam Reported

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:16:29 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:23:01 -0400
Subject: Teleportation Of Laser Beam Reported


This appears to be rather interesting news:

http://abc.net.au/news/scitech/2002/06/item20020617070959_1.htm

In the wake of earlier light manipulation experiments, the
future looks very interesting indeed.

Are we in change up mode with something else?






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   Jun > Jun 17

                            Re: Blimps - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:24:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Lehmberg


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Blimps
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:57:45 -0700

 >Hello All,

 >Daivd Acres, in a preivous post, wondered when Blimps came into
 >existence. Here it is, a long withthe general history of
 >Airships:

 >http://www.worldwar1.com/sfzepp.htm


Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
helium necessary to keep them in the air?  Hydrogen blimps would
have handily exploded in the well documented onslaught of
American guns.

The Germans had given up on blimps as a result of not being able
to acquire helium from the United States just a few year prior
to 1942, and if the Germans (with greater resources) couldn't
get the stuff, how did the Japanese, with a much _smaller_
sphere of necessary resources and raw materials, get an
abundance of it? Moreover, if these helium (of necessity)
balloons or JTBs were the objects actually sighted over LA, why
didn't they rain death and destruction on the city when they had
the chance? The only damage incurred, by report, was
embarrassingly self inflicted with the shrapnel resulting from
the shells exploded on the surface of the mystery object and
falling dangerously back to Earth.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.












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   Jun > Jun 17

                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:57:57 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:27:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:06:20 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:35:37 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>"what balloon and where are the reports that they brought down a
 >>balloon or >that it was finally identified as a balloon?"

 >>"Surely someone would have been taken to task over this if it was
 >>a real event?"

 >The balloon in question was noted in "THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN
 >WORLD WAR II; DEFENSE OF THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE". An article
 >available online from the Museum of San Fransisco.

That article is here:

http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist9/aaf1.html

When was this article written? Was it 1983? Here's the credits
from the bottom of the article:

"The Army Air Forces in World War II,  prepared under the
editorship of Wesley Frank Craven, James Lea Cate. v.1, pp. 277-
286, Washington, D.C. : Office of Air Force History : For sale
by the Supt. of Docs., U.S. G.P.O., 1983."

 >The balloon
 >in question I believe was a common flare balloon and these were
 >reported fairly often during the war though whether or not all
 >these reports were correct is unverifiable.

Maybe not so common Paul? A google serach fo "flare balloon"
only returned one relevant article, a patent holding by an Ed
Yost # 3,642,400 Illumination Flare/Balloon "Briteye" A search
of the USPTO shows this was filed in 1969.

Paul, there may have been more than one balloon? I quote the
following from above link at SF Museum: "That evening a large
number of flares and blinking lights were reported from the
vicinity of defense plants. An alert called at 1918 [7:18 p.m.,
Pacific time]" (This would have been Feb 24) Also from the
opening paragraph: "At 0306 a balloon carrying a red flare was
seen over Santa Monica"

The same article says: "A careful study of the evidence suggests
that meteorological balloons-known to have been released over
Los Angeles -may well have caused the initial alarm."

It seems even the Army was not sure of this balloon or balloons
though: "A strong editorial in the Washington Post  on 27
February called the handling of the Los Angeles episode a
"recipe for jitters," and censured the military authorities for
what it called "stubborn silence" in the face of widespread
uncertainty. The editorial suggested that the Army's theory that
commercial planes might have caused the alert "explains
everything except where the planes came from, whither they were
going, and why no American planes were sent in pursuit of them."

The New York Times Editor had also not been informed of the
balloon either:"The New York Times  on 28 February expressed a
belief that the more the incident was studied, the more
incredible it became: "If the batteries were firing on nothing
at all, as Secretary Knox implies, it is a sign of expensive
incompetence and jitters. If the batteries were firing on real
planes, some of them as low as 9,000 feet, as Secretary Stimson
declares, why were they completely ineffective?"

So why the Army's hesitance to release the balloon news?  Why
blame it on commercial Aircraft?

Sorry! My bullshit detector is buzzing! :)

 >With
 >the finding of the photo clearly showing the difference in the
 >spotlights I now believe this 99%.

Maybe that photo will clear the whole thing up? So who have you
applied to for that photograph Paul & when do you expect a
reply, please?







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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #367

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:54:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:29:50 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #367


Alfred's Odd Ode #367 (Monday, June 17, 2002)

Cohen wants the "Real Deal", perceived between the stars... to
live that new reality... proposed _above_ the present bar, and
though perhaps contentious or too quick on the offensive, he is
doing what he's doing to _confront_ what's been pretended.

And what are we pretending but the lie that we're alone, that
there is not _clear_ history, well writ in ink and solid stone,
that there is _much_ beneath a shroud our culture would impose,
ironic from an 'Emperor' bereft of _any_ clothes!

What are we pretending with our mainstream in its yoke,
contrived for corporate interests, so a lapdog -- an embarrassed
joke... denying what the masses are reporting without fail,
though they suffer for their trouble: slings and arrows -- even
jail.

What are we pretending as the 'robbers' run amuck, or perform
manipulations to ensure them means to _keep_ "good luck."
Business has a power that is near to absolute, and corrupted
absolutely is that power -- that's the truth!

What are we pretending as the Earth begins to warm, or consider
dying oceans as the start of what we'd blithely harm. We could
take the steps right now to "cleanly" move to space, but
psychopaths destroy us all in self-absorbed disgrace.

What are we pretending as our children starve to death, and those
who live are crippled by a hatred breathed with every breath? Too
true, we make our enemies... more often than is not, and that
would come from greed we show to those who haven't "got"!

What are we pretending with egregious tyrannies that discount the
individual who would rise from callused, beat-up, knees?
Invention's disrespected, if disturbing status quos... that would
have their way _regardless_, and become its greatest foe.

What are we pretending as we practice a denial that's an insult
to intelligence held against us at some, future, trial? Humanity
is judged, or not, by who's been said is there, not God or all
his angels but an ET, he would dare!

What are we pretending while ignoring, in the sky, the lights
that move so weirdly as they weave or bob, but clearly fly?
We've _enough_ reports from folks who claim they interact...
with an alternate intelligence, abducting them in fact?

What are we pretending as we hide and stretch the truth, or make
up pretty histories our kids reject _in fact_! What use?! A lie's
a lie and smells as sweet so transfers all too well...
contributing to an ignorance that sends us ALL to hell.

So he would stop pretending that we validate "best practice" in
ways that only signify, at _best_,  "convenient practice." There
is much, too much, at stake, much more than we could know, and
shall we find the denouement to reap what we would sow?

We're best served the real deal without the mad pretence, a
truth in our reality, _sincere_ forthcoming-ness! A place where
stealthy psychopaths are checked by 'rule of law' and where
there is fidelity, beyond the CSICOP's pawl!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


CSICOP's pawl operates in reverse, of course, a catch in our
cultural wheel that by definition would otherwise ratchet
'forward' and not allow the backsliding slip to a previous
position... CSICOP is seeing its eventual recognition and
righteous identification as a hindrance to total advancement, a
barrier to efficacious progression, and as an organization
_toxic_ to creatively efficacious intelligence and even a
general quality of life. CSICOP is a ratchet in reverse, an
attempted slide to a previously held position and then locked
there awaiting another opportunity for a regressive slip...
CSICOPS days _are_ numbered, even if it's still, very
unfortunately, a _big_ number. The reader can take heart in
that.

Like a Rush Limbaugh of the counter-paranormal, CSICOP ignores
the facts, creatively spins the evidence, and discounts the
proof embraced by institutions, individuals, or ideas contrary
to its own. It lacks the consistency it would otherwise demand
in others and it prosecutes its very canted agenda in a
decidedly one sided manner.

For example, it embraces intellectual, "think cloak" fallacies
like "extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence,"
which is only a clever dodge to ensure a CSICOP controlled level
of evidence that is constantly raising its own bar.
Additionally, it employs "Occam's razor," (a cant to the
simplest  explanation possible) which is used to justify
'BALLOONS' for hovering objects _not_ shot down in a hail of
antiaircraft fire over Los Angeles in 1942, and 'VENUS' for a
huge triangular craft witnessed by hundreds (and five counties
of police officers) over south Illinois in 1991...

If the reader has the slightest doubt regarding the preceding
they only have to take an enjoyably informative gander at Jerry
Cohen's _very_ excellent website at:

http://www.cohenufo.org

and compare it with the all-proclamation-and-churlish-
pronouncements, whiningly pontificated at the CSICOP site found
at:

http://www.csicop.org.

Cohen _deconstructs_ CSICOP at every turn he takes, rationally
negates many of CSICOPs ufological presumptions (blighting the
rest), and invalidates, magnificently (with some humor and a
dash of appropriate sarcasm), the presumed charter and even
_mandate_ of CSICOP's core organization. Don't take _my_ word
for it. Go see for yourself. The dragon, if not dead, lies dying
with Cohen's lance in its chest!

Mr. Cohen is old guard (...been around and diligently
researching for years), but he is descriptive of a new breed of
ufologist that uses the opposition's own arguments as evidence
of opposition fallaciousness. Mr. Cohen refreshingly goes,
unlike CSICOP, where the data leads. Rare bird, THAT.

He clearly provides citation along with his rational progressive
thinking in a hyper-textual manner that balances both sides of
the contentious argument (the complete antithesis of CSICOP).
Finally, he makes it transparently obvious that our cultural
deck is sullenly stacked by an _officious_ mainstream devoid of
the same veracity that it demands of its hapless adherents and
makes it _measurably_ clear that not only are we not in "Kansas"
anymore, good reader, maybe we were never in "Kansas", at all!

Read on.

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:21:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:32:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:27:51 -0400

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:11:09 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 ><snip>

 >>First... Dick Hall has posted _several_ excellent proposals for
 >>a UFOlogical 'oversight' board or panel that have all been
 >>uniformly ignored. A good place to start might be to go back in
 >>the UpDates archives, dig up Dick Halls' proposals, and maybe
 >>try to 'fine tune' and hopefully implement one of them. No need
 >>to reinvent the wheel. Dick Halls' proposals are a great head
 >>start on an already difficult task.

 >However, it was Richard's hard line approach to Ufology that
 >caused him to sever his involvement in the MUFON Journal. Much
 >of this field is driven by the profit motive or faith, and not
 >the pursuit of scientific integrity (which we probably couldn't
 >agree on anyway).

 >Bruce Hutchison wrote:

 >>>It would be interesting though, if all published reports - books,
 >>>articles, magazines, and even (...gasp!) TV 'documentaries'

 >John Responded:

 >>Oh don't be such a snob, Bruce. Where else can the average
 >>person get to see and hear the Mantell family? (For instance)
 >>When hunting for information, _any_ source is a good one. TV
 >>_can_ be every bit as useful and valuable for gleaning
 >>information as print or any other media.

 >Of course the information you receive from that source is
 >filtered by a director and producer, who often make decisions
 >that help to increase viewers (and thus profits). I don't view
 >television documentaries as worthless, because (as you point
 >out) there is often no other way for the public to become
 >exposed to the stories being told. But I view them with
 >reservations and understand that I'm likely getting the
 >producer's view of 'reality'.

Hi Steve,

You were going great up to here:

 >You may recall the NOVA program
 >on Alien Abductions, and many of those who took part felt (to
 >some degree) betrayed when it took a very skeptical stance.

Humor?

That was _me_ Steve! And we didn't feel "betrayed because they
took a skeptical stance." I'm fine with intellectually honest
skeptics. Always have been. My introduction onto this List six
years ago was because of the NOVA program where Budd first
presented my case to the public. As a result, EBK invited me to
participate in the ongoing discussion here at UpDates. But I
digress.

As many have repeatedly stated on this List (and I agree) there
is a difference between skepticism and debunkery. The NOVA
program was a poor attempt at 'debunking' the abduction phenom.
_That_ was, and always has been, my problem with it.

 >In the past, we've outlined goals that might help to lend
 >credibility to the field, but IMO there's little chance that you
 >could get two or three of us to agree on anything major. A
 >clear definition of the field, rules of evidence, and peer
 >review would help. But, they're unlikely at this point.

Thank you for restating my point. I agree. That is what I said
in the first place. But again, where else can the average person
sit back and listen to interviews with folks like the Mantell's?
Nothing in this world is 'all good' or 'all bad' for that
matter. TV programming included. I thought the Sightings segment
with the Mantell family was a _valuable_ broadcast document.
Regardless of how screwed up the rest of TV content may be. It
never pays to throw the baby out with the bath water. TV, as
with anything else, needs to be approached with a critical eye
and a modicum of discretion.   :)


Regards,

John Velez









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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #19 - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:45:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:35:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #19 - Cohen


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:19:55 -0500
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #19

 >Alfred's Odd Observation #19 (Saturday -- June 15, 2002)

<snip>

 >I'd always thought that Jerome Clark was the
 >skeptibunky's most auspicious and able nightmare. I
 >discover that I have to move Mr. Clark, respectfully, to
 >the second chair!

<snip>

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m15-015.shtml

First of all, I am exceedingly grateful and thrilled
that anyone has taken the time to read what I have assembled at
my web site and am doubly grateful that Alfred has found it to
be what he feels it is. Evidently he got my drift and I thank
him from the bottom of my heart. I'm also thankful just to be
considered by anyone to be in the same ballpark with some
extremely intelligent people, some of whom have spent virtually
their entire lives investigating those elusive 'will o' the
wisps' known as UFOs.

However, I'm coming from a different place than Jerome. I'm
saying I've seen one of these things. He doesn't have that
luxury. The purpose of my site wasn't and isn't to be better
than anyone else, but rather to hopefully give a single-person
overview of the UFO situation as I have seen it develop over the
years; one totally removed from the political goings on that are
inevitably part of the human-group condition in any field. The
only thought in my mind in constructing the whole thing has been
to somehow make, what I pray to myself might possibly turn out
to be, a worthwhile contribution to ufology in general. Part of
it has been totally selfish. I wanted PROOF of what I saw;
nothing more, nothing less. It scared the living c___ out of me.

But I'm a retired guy and I don't, nor should anyone else,
expect any of the research groups to duplicate in any way,
shape, or form what I assembled at my web site. It was an
ongoing endeavor that has been an annoying monkey on my back for
35+ years, especially for the first 10-15 years of amazing
angst. It is the teacher part of me that assembled it the way I
did and freely posted it on the net. It is certainly more than
enough that these groups go out and do the "in-the-field"
studies of cases, some of which may eventually turn out to fall
into that small percentage which are eventually proven true
"UFOs"; UFOs that have resisted the attempts of everyone;
scientists, skeptics, believers, whomever, to resolve them
scientifically and rationally.

These groups need support and they need money to be able to
afford to do the kinds of studies that we'd all like to see
performed. Hessdalen is a perfect example of one such study.
Look what they've set up there.

http://www.hessdalen.org/

As more of these type studies are completed, I believe we will
eventually get past the periphery and finally get to the core of
what some of us suspect this phenomenon is all about. Of course,
skeptics will see this last sentence from a different point of
view, and this is certainly how it should be until this whole
thing is resolved.

This is where I think it's at trying to pin down this elusive
"son of a gun." (I wrote that last phrase differently the first
time.) My web site was only meant to be a support to all those
people out there "doing their thing." If it helps even one
person locate anything they need or communicate with someone
else, whatever, I'm at deep peace with myself. If it wasn't for
the great work many of you have done out there, I think I would
have "flipped my cookies" long ago. I probably have anyway, but
cosmically speaking, it's a short life. We might as well spend
the time we have doing something we feel is truly important. Why
else are we on this list?

Any readers out there who are looking at this and other
discussions at this mail list in wonderment, and would like to
help, we need you. If you have a scientific background, even
better. Please join some of these groups and participate.
Remember, contributing by reading their journals alone still
raises money that helps the research. They can certainly use
your assistance.

Just click

CUFOS (Center for UFO Studies)  http://www.cufos.org/
FUFOR (Fund for UFO Research)  http://www.fufor.com/
MUFON (Mutual UFO Network)
http://www.mufon.com/home.html
PROJECT 1947 http://www.project1947.com/infoltr.htm

and they will tell you what you can do to help.

Respectfully,
Jerry Cohen
http://www.cohenufo.org/

PS  The history hyperlinkings at my web site can perhaps help
newcomers efficiently gain a deeper understanding of ufology in
general. It is by no means a complete history of the field
(Jerome has it covered... buy one of his books),

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?wauth=Jerome%20clark

but rather a basic overview which can help one understand a few
of the factors that have caused us to arrive at our present
situation today.









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:57:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:44:28 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & RemedialIntervention


 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:27:51 -0400

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:11:09 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >><snip>

 >First... Dick Hall has posted _several_ excellent proposals for
 >>>a UFOlogical 'oversight' board or panel that have all been
 >>>uniformly ignored. A good place to start might be to go back in
 >>>the UpDates archives, dig up Dick Halls' proposals, and maybe
 >>>try to 'fine tune' and hopefully implement one of them. No need
 >>>to reinvent the wheel. Dick Halls' proposals are a great head
 >>>start on an already difficult task.

 >>However, it was Richard's hard line approach to Ufology that
 >>caused him to sever his involvement in the MUFON Journal. Much
 >>of this field is driven by the profit motive or faith, and not
 >>the pursuit of scientific integrity (which we probably couldn't
 >>agree on anyway).

 ><snip>

 >>In the past, we've outlined goals that might help to lend
 >>credibility to the field, but IMO there's little chance that you
 >>could get two or three of us to agree on anything major. A
 >>clear definition of the field, rules of evidence, and peer
 >>review would help. But, they're unlikely at this point.

Hola Josh,

You wrote:

 >Steve, John, Bruce, and all Listerions from Mysterium,

 >John, I've been meaning to post today regarding my appreciation
 >of your post, above, with your support of Dick Hall's
 >recommendations. For quite some time he and I have communicated
 >off-List regarding these needed remedies. I also am in strong
 >agreement with him.

It never ceases to amaze me how Dick Hall's proposals and
recommendations are almost uniformly ignored by researchers on
this List. It also never ceases to amaze me how some people
who have not made a single tangible contribution to the study of
UFOs presume that it is ok to insult and criticize him here as
if they were one of his peers. (As they hide and spew their bile
safely from behind their monitors and keyboards.)

Dick has put forward some of the more practical and realistic
proposals for the formation of a 'review board' that have
appeared in print anywhere. Instead of acting on them, they are
left dangling in mid-air by the rest of the research community -
until some other researcher comes along and presents a watered
down version of Dick's proposals and they do it as if the idea
was original with them.

Amazing! :)

 >In our last post we agreed with our
 >unfortunate cynicism that, knowing the history of the field over
 >the last few decades, it seems highly unlikely that the
 >"scientific but with an open mind - just show me the evidence
 >other than anecdotal or hoaxed documents - to support your claim
 >- otherwise you are part of the problem and not part of the
 >solution attitude" - will form an organization of strength with
 >respectable standards that earn it enduring credibility - and
 >able to somehow reduce the amount of ludicrous hucksterism noise
 >from heavy metal to a mere whisper.

Because the ones who make all the 'noise' to begin with are by
definition the loudest voices, anyone who works toward creating
a sound and sober environment in ufology will become vilified
and painted as 'evil incarnate' by these _wannabes._

Speaking out for sanity and a sound approach to the problem
threatens these self-made 'tin Gods'. They will launch concerted
smear campaigns and all kinds of personal character
assassination attempts in order to advance their own self-
serving and mostly egotistical agendas. Honest, hard working
people will be tossed into the fire so that the 'illusory' but
much sought after recognition and fame will finally be in their
grasp. Truth and practical research methods be damned if it
interfere's with their personal agenda.

Take my word for it... I have been _used_ by both the "big
names" in ufology as well as the bottom feeders solely for the
purpose of their own self-promotion and self-aggrandizement.

It is why (today) I operate as a 'lone-wolf.' I have
disassociated myself (as I discovered them) from the 'users' and
from the bottom feeders. Being on my own has granted me the
freedom to speak my mind openly. Which is precisely what I
always do.

Damn the torpedoes.


Regards,

John Velez
Standing on honestly earned solid ground










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 17

                        ET, Blair, Turkey & World Cup

From: UFO UpDates
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:44:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:44:00 -0400
Subject: ET, Blair, Turkey & World Cup



Thanks to Chris Evers for the lead.....

Source: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_609609.html?menu=3D


Contact with ET same odds as Turkey winning World Cup

The likelihood of Tony Blair confirming the existence of
intelligent extraterrestrial life is now the same as that of
Turkey winning the World Cup.

Bookmakers William Hill has slashed its odds for the Prime
Minister announcing contact with an alien to 50-1.

To pay out, the life form has to be intelligent and Mr Blair
must confirm its existence within a year of the bet being made.

Two years ago the prospect of finding intelligent
extraterrestrials was put at 1,000-1.

It is now on a par with Turkey winning the World Cup, David
Seaman being voted sports personality of the year, David
Beckham's son Brooklyn growing up to play for England, or Prince
William dropping out of university.

A spokeswoman for William Hill said: "It's a popular and unusual
bet which we follow quite closely.

"There's been quite a lot in the news recently about
extraterrestrial life and improved technology for finding other
planets. The odds came down to 500-1 and progressively got
narrower."

A number of comments by scientists and new discoveries have
contributed to a greater expectation of making contact with
aliens.

William Hill said it had received between 50 and 100 bets on the
existence of extraterrestrials. Stakes varied from =A320 to
=A31,000.

Story filed: 18:31 Monday 17th June 2002







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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:27:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:54:15 -0400

 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:57:58 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>><snip>

 >>>>They _all_ agree that what they saw was a "metallic disc". I'll
 >>>>take their word over Kevin's or the Air Force's about what was
 >>>>in the sky that day and subsequently 'chased' by Mantell. I wish
 >>>>I could recall the name of the program that featured the Mantell
 >>>>family. It aired just a few years ago. Maybe a Listerion can
 >>>>help out with this one. It was one of those 'first person(s)'
 >>>>interviews that anyone interested in the case should listen to.

 >>>I believe that was an early episode of 'Sightings'. I believe
 >>>they went back to the crash site and actually located some small
 >>>metallic pieces of the aircraft that had been missed by the
 >>>military many years earlier. If someone has the Sightings
 >>>publication on UFO subjects, the Mantell case may be one of the
 >>>featured items.

 >>Also, I received this report from one of my correspondents about
 >>the Mantell case which changes my mind about this classic
 >>incident...

 >>"I spoke with the P-51 pilot about Mantell. This is what he
 >>said...

 >First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with Mantell?
 >Was he actually at Godman field?

I think he was on the ground at Godman field, not in formation,
however a further update indicates that this pilot does not
believe in UFOs at all so could not conceive of Mantell chasing
anything other than a balloon.

BH







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   Jun > Jun 17

                            Re: Blimps - Thompson

From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:58:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:39:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Thompson


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >helium necessary to keep them in the air?  Hydrogen blimps would
 >have handily exploded in the well documented onslaught of
 >American guns.

I've not been following this particular debate, but as a long
time airship aficionado, I can tell you that hydrogen filled
airships do not explode when hit by ordinary munitions. Solid
bullets and shrapnel do not have sufficient heat to ignite
hydrogen in contained balloonets; you need explosive or
incendiary rounds such as the Brock or Pomeroy rounds developed
to combat WW 1 Zeppelins. Ordinary ammunition just pokes holes
in gas cells, creating leaks but not fire.

 >The Germans had given up on blimps as a result of not being able
 >to acquire helium from the United States just a few year prior
 >to 1942, and if the Germans (with greater resources) couldn't
 >get the stuff, how did the Japanese, with a much _smaller_
 >sphere of necessary resources and raw materials, get an
 >abundance of it? Moreover, if these helium (of necessity)
 >balloons or JTBs were the objects actually sighted over LA, why
 >didn't they rain death and destruction on the city when they had
 >the chance? The only damage incurred, by report, was
 >embarrassingly self inflicted with the shrapnel resulting from
 >the shells exploded on the surface of the mystery object and
 >falling dangerously back to Earth.

Zeppelins are not "blimps." A blimp is a lighter than air ship
whose shape is dependent on gas pressure. A Zeppelin has a
metallic framework to maintain its shape no matter how much
lifting gas it contains.

Helium is found almost exclusively in natural gas wells in the
US (some, I think, in wells in the Caucasus as well, in the
former USSR).  The US refused to sell Germany helium after the
Hindenburg tragedy in 1937.

Japanese Fu-Go balloons were inflated with hydrogen. They did
not start arriving over the US until much later. (As above, a
hydrogen balloon does not unfailingly explode when pierced by a
simple bullet. You need an incendiary round).

One bit of trivia you might find intriguing is the German
"Aphrodite" balloon. This was a small gas filled balloon,
launched from U-boats. It was a radar decoy, coated with
metallic paint and festooned with strips of metal foil. It was
designed to confuse Allied aircraft and warships hunting U-boats
with radar. I've never heard of the Japanese using such devices,
but the concept is simple and the technology easy to effect.....


Paul Thompson










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   Jun > Jun 17

                            UFOs On BBC South TV

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:17:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:52:00 -0400
Subject: UFOs On BBC South TV


BBC South Today - the TV programme which goes out to the South
of England - is currently running a UFO investigation on UFOs
complete with video sightings etc.

There was one programme on tonight and there are two more on
Tuesday at Wednesday in the Country Ways slot of the programme
which goes out on BBC 1 between 6.30 pm. and 7 pm.

Tomorrow also there is an internet chat room open for questions
afterwards. Here are a couple of links for more details:16

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=ufo&uri=%2Fsouthampton%2F

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southampton/features/ufo.shtml


Cheers,
Dave Haith







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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:28:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:54:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

<snip>

 >>Also, I received this report from one of my correspondents about
 >>the Mantell case which changes my mind about this classic
 >>incident...

 >>"I spoke with the P-51 pilot about Mantell. This is what he
 >>said...

 >First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with Mantell?
 >Was he actually at Godman field?

 >Or is all of this information based upon something that "a" P-51
 >pilot is commenting on based upon accounts he has seen in the
 >news or otherwise?

 >A little clarity would help.

 >As I recall, Wendy Connors was able to locate some additional
 >witness reports that were not included in the so called official
 >Bluebook file on the case. And, as I recall from reading the
 >reports, they were very interesting for what they did tell.


Robert,

What you may be referring to here are interrogation reports of
Air Force witnesses to the Godman UFO that turned up at the
Center for UFO Studies in Allen Hynek's papers. They described a
glowing object in the right time frame that was zooming up and
down from near the horizon to high overhead. It's been a while
so I no longer recall further details. They certainly cast doubt
on the Skyhook balloon explanation, as does the fact (last I
knew) that no one was ever able to place a Skyhook there at that
time on that date. (Shades of the Roswell Mogul balloon!)I know
a lot of very good investigators write this case off, but after
reading those additional reports I'm not so sure.

- Dick







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   Jun > Jun 18

                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:17:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Novak


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:57:57 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >"So why the Army's hesitance to release the balloon
 >news? Why blame it on commercial Aircraft?"


As I noted, none of the various military branches wished to take
responsibility. Each sought to blame the other.

The secretary of the Navy Fank Knox stated it was a false alarm
and that no planes were confirmed. Secretary Stimson claimed
there were probably planes yet had no concrete answers as to
their origins or why they were never affected by the barrage.

But it should be noted that the efforts of these branches from
all appearances were geared towards hiding that they were
shooting at nothing or blaming the others for allowing a false
alarm to escalate to such proportions. Not that they couldn't
shoot down a UFO.

The balloon theory is just that. A guess based on the fact that
these were known to be used and had been seen before and one was
sighted prior to the barrage. Just as the commercial planes
explanation was also a 'guess'. But much more likely is that
these were excuses offered simply to try placating an upset
public and hide the fact that they royally screwed up although I
tend to favor a flare balloon being responsible for setting off
the incident.

For all we know, one excitable artillery commander could have
given the order for his group to fire upon seeing the flare
balloon and voila, a fiasco of epic proportions. I doubt the
military would have been willing to give such an explanation
though considering their efforts to keep the publics confidence
in their ability to defend them. Also of note is that the last
thing the military would have like publicized was that the west
coast was defended by apparently inexperienced and nervous
battalions. The Japanese would have welcomed such news eh?

I would like to note that further relevant material can be found
on the pages linked below, if you have not already checked.

 >From THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II....

http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist9/aaf1.html


"As these and other forces took up their defensive positions,
coastal communities suffered from an "invasion fever" which
first showed itself with the calling of an alert in San
Francisco on 8 December...."

"If the batteries were firing on nothing at all, as Secretary
Knox implies, it is a sign of expensive incompetence and
jitters. If the batteries were firing on real planes, some of
them as low as 9,000 feet, as Secretary Stimson declares, why
were they completely ineffective? Why did no American planes go
up to engage them, or even to identify them?... What would have
happened if this had been a real air raid?" These questions were
appropriate, but for the War Department to have answered them in
full frankness would have involved an even more complete
revelation of the weakness of our air defenses...."

"The many alerts of this period reflect the inexperience of both
the public and the defense forces. To some critics they
indicated a deliberate attempt by the Army to frighten the
public in order to stimulate interest in war preparations.
Before accepting this view, however, it should be noted that
many of the reports of unidentified aircraft, leading to
precautionary blackouts, resulted from mechanical difficulties
with new radar equipment and from the understandable mistakes of
inadequately trained personnel...."


I would also like to point out this. The radar had a blip which
dissappeared. And AFTER it disappeared people reported seeing
planes. The numbers of which varied wildly. So if there were
planes as the witnesses claimed why were they not showing on the
radar? This I feel is a further indication that nothing was
indeed there to seen.

 >"Maybe not so common Paul?"

Concerning my hasty assumption regarding flare balloons.

Military flares themselves were and are very common in many
forms predominantly parachute flares used to illuminate targets.

I concede balloon flares may not have been as common as to be
considered extensively used. But it is documented that
meteorlogical balloons carrying candles and flares were
routinely used and also that flare balloons were believed to be
used by the japanese to test enemy air defenses. The latter is
yet another speculation by the military as to the origin of the
red flare carrying balloon mentioned in the article. Coupled
with the fact that the japanese submarine I17 was present from
the 20th through the 23-24th and shelled the oil field it is not
an unreasonable speculation. Unfortunately most mentions of them
I have found are as side notes in various articles regarding the
world wars.

There was plenty of BS it appears, but more as a result of
paranoia, nervousness, and passing the buck to avoid
responsibility it would appear. This seems apparent to me from
the different explanations given by the Navy and Army, the
change in explanations by the Army, and the finger pointing done
by the Army and Navy.

I have contacted the LA Times and am waiting to find out if a
reproduction of the original print before it was published is
possible and what the fee will be. I suppose I may need to
contact them again, maybe in writing or by phone. I tried a year
ago and if I remember correctly was told it would be fairly
expensive but I never followed up.

I have also contacted a dealer in historic newspapers within the
past two days but doubt this will prove worthwhile as it appears
the newspapers printed copy also shows the spotlights abruptly
cutoff. Why the photo would have been retouched in this manner
is also a mystery. As soon as, and if I have a copy in my
possession it will be made available. I'm all for others
attempting to locate one as I have been trying for some time to
obtain one and it is not in the least proving to be an easy
undertaking.

But I do myself think it would do much to at the least satisfy
the questions of just what is shown in the photo and "was it
truly altered?" once a viable copy is available.








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   Jun > Jun 18

                             Re: Blimps - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:21:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Novak


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Blimps


 >"Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >helium necessary to keep them in the air?"

Japan did have the ability to send aloft lighter than air craft.
However, there is no basis to assume a Japanese blimp was
responsible for the incident. A blimp quite obviously would not
have lasted very long. No blimps were sighted and the only
mentions of any are sheer speculation. Also, it is not at all
proven there was indeed any object for shells to explode against
and much reason to believe there was not.

However, Japan did use balloon bombs called Fugos. They were
fueled with hydrogen, not helium, and carried antipersonel and
incendiary bombs.

http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/fugo.htm








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   Jun > Jun 18

                  Green Orbs Near Petersburg, West Virginia

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:05:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:25:29 -0400
Subject: Green Orbs Near Petersburg, West Virginia


A friend of mine has just relayed a report from his sister
involving a curious aerial phenomenon she observed. She and her
family of four were visiting a trailer they own on a mouintain
top in WV last Friday.
That night the trailer was lit up by several green-glowing orbs
that came from overhead, some of which came right up to the
windows of the trailer. The phenomenon lasted all night, at
least until 4AM when they finally went to sleep. No one that
they talked to the next day had observed anything.

I've been out of the field for a while, but I do seem to recall
scattered reports of this type once in a great while (not to be
confused with the Green Fireballs of the 40s/50s).
Is this phenomenon becoming more common of late? Does this
correlate with anything else known in that area?


==JJS==







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   Jun > Jun 18

                    Close Encounters Of The Circular Kind

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:03:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:29:08 -0400
Subject: Close Encounters Of The Circular Kind


Source: LaCrosse Tribune (LaCrosse, Wisconsin),

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/news/zClose_encounters_of_the_circular_kind.p=
hp

Stig

***

Last updated on Mon Jun 17 16:30:55 CDT 2002

Close encounters of the circular kind

Knight Ridder Newspapers

**

TOWN OF PORT WASHINGTON, Wis. - Gene Large wasn't sure what to
make of it when he walked out of his farmhouse the morning of
July 11, 1998, and discovered a mysterious, two-acre circle
formation in his wheat field.

At first, said 65-year-old Large, "I thought it was some kids in
their four-wheelers" who flattened his crop.

But the more he thought about it, Large wasn't so sure.

"There were no tracks anywhere. And, besides, how the hell did
they make such perfect circles?" he said.

Hundreds of crop circles - often incredibly complex geometric
formations usually found in fields of grain - are reported
worldwide every year. And interest in them may grow this summer
with the Aug. 2 release of "Signs," a movie directed by M. Night
Shyamalan and starring Mel Gibson as a Pennsylvania farmer who
finds alien-created crop circles in his corn field.

Are they proof we're not alone, the calling card of a worldwide
hoax or, as the Ozaukee Sheriff's Department concluded in Port
Washington, just the work of some nocturnal vandals? When it
comes to crop circles, theorists exist for any conspiracy.

Large harvested his wheat within days of finding the formation,
and he and his wife, Shirley, went on with their lives. The
circles received no media attention.

But aerial photos taken by Large's neighbor made their way onto
the Internet - stirring interest among the true believers,
researchers who call themselves cerealogists (after the Roman
goddess of vegetation, Ceres).

"I was amazed by it," said one investigator, Thom Reed, of
McHenry, Ill., who studied the site after it had been harvested
and posted a report on the Internet. His report concludes they
were made by "interdimensional intelligences."

Kim Sherwood, of Santa Monica, Calif., thinks the Port
Washington crop circles are "genuine" - that is, not man-made.

"The fact it has no walk lines is a very good sign. It's very
clean, neatly done and contains visually similar characteristics
to other crop circles," said Sherwood, who researches crop
circles with her husband, Ed, and viewed pictures of the crop
circles on the Internet.

Sherwood believes crop circles are caused by a "global
poltergeist, a psycho-interactive phenomenon of collective
consciousness and infinite intelligence that points to a form of
divine intervention, if you like. What some people may call
God."

Stephen J. Smith, a Vermont "amateur composer" who died last
year, found the Port Washington collection of circles to have
the proper "diatonic" ratios to each other to create three-to-
five-note musical scales.

Smith composed and recorded music based on it and another crop
circle found near Wausau in 1997, which he said generated a
five- note scale, as well as on two crop circles in England.

Another believer was so intrigued by the Large circles that he
traveled to the site to take soil samples.

According to Casey Holt, of Minnesota, the samples contained a
higher-than-normal concentration of spherical iron particles, 20
to 50 microns in diameter - typical of "genuine" sites, he wrote
in an e-mail to a reporter.

That indicates "there was a kind of electromagnetic energy
present at the site."

Some wheat stalks appeared to have been exposed to heat, and the
circles were not perfectly round but slightly oval, which would
be consistent with the belief that they were created by a "beam"
or "ray" emitted from a craft hovering at an angle above the
site, he said.

Crop circle connoisseurs of another stripe have a different
observation: Two people could have made them in about an hour.

"It's competent, but not that impressive," said John Lundberg,
33, one of a three-member group known as "The Circlemakers" in
England who claim to have made hundreds of crop formations over
the last decade. He viewed the Port Washington circles on the
Internet and e- mailed a reporter and called it "a very simple
design."

As crop circles go, the approximately 230-by-210-foot Port
Washington formation is dwarfed by most British crop circles,
some of which are more than 800 feet in diameter and contain
hundreds of individual circles.

Skeptics say crop circles are the product of people such as
Lundberg and Wil Russel, commonly known as "hoaxers," an
appellation scorned by circle-makers.

"I'm not a hoaxer, I'm a circle-maker," said Russel, one of
Lundberg's partners. "Hoaxing is an activity to deceive by
making fun of someone. That's not what I do. I make art, which
stimulates a reaction from everyone who sees it."

The most famous, and some say first, circle-makers were Britons
Doug Bower and David Chorley who, in 1991, said they made about 250
circles over the previous two decades.

Others, like Lundberg and Russel, have taken up the cause. Their
Web site offers, among other things, instructions on how to make a
crop circle.

If every crop circle were man-made, where would the mystery be?

So Lundberg and Russel don't claim that to be the case.

"I believe there is something else at work, but I am not sure
what," Russel wrote.

Some people serious about the subject have no time for circle-
makers or alien buffs.

The circle-makers, said Nancy Talbot, "get in the way of our work."

Talbot heads a group called BLT Research Inc. in Cambridge, Mass.,
and oversees a network of nearly 700 volunteers who investigate
crop circle reports. Talbot also helps finance scientific research
on the subject.

She also complained about "all the UFO talk" that has "scared off
many legitimate scientists" and dried up most funding sources for
scientific research.

A deputy investigating the site believed the wheat was flattened by
vandals riding all-terrain vehicles, according to the incident
report.

But Sheriff Maury Straub viewed the crop circles from a plane flown
by a neighbor of the Larges. He said it's more likely that someone
walked into the field and flattened it using boards and ropes,
moving about in circular patterns - a technique described on
Internet sites.

That explanation didn't fly with Reed - the visitor to the site
from Illinois - who talked to Straub on the phone. He said the
sheriff was "tight- lipped about the formation" and it "seemed like
Straub was in a hurry to finish the conversation."

Straub remembers that chat.

"Yeah, a big cover-up and all that nonsense. And you can quote me.

There's absolutely no validity to that," Straub said.

Still, Shirley Large isn't so sure.

The night before the circles were discovered, Shirley and the
family's dog, home alone while Gene was at work in Saukville, felt
something ominous.

"The dog was strange that night and would hide behind the chair,"
she said. "I got kind of scared and pulled down the shades and
closed the drapes. I even put a towel over the front-door window.

"I didn't hear or see anything. It was just a feeling."

Now, Shirley said, she's a "firm believer in UFOs."

"But I don't know how they were made," she said. "I can't figure it
out."

**

Copyright =A9 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 & 2002 The La Crosse
Tribune. All rights reserved.








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   Jun > Jun 18

                     Roswell Declared 'All-America City'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:15:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:08:40 -0400
Subject: Roswell Declared 'All-America City'


Source: The Ledger (Lakeland, Florida),

http://www.theledger.com/top_stories/19fina.htm

Stig

***

Lakeland Misses All-America Final Cut

Sunday, June 16, 2002

By RICK ROUSOS
The Ledger

**

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- It was all or nothing for Lakeland in its
bid to become an All-America City on Saturday night, and the
city came away with empty hands.

Ten cities from Alaska to Alabama to New York were chosen as
2002 All-America cities in a huge, packed convention room at
the Hyatt Regency in Kansas City. Lakeland was one of the 20
finalists that didn't make the final cut.

The other finalist from Florida, Miami Beach, was also left
at the altar.

Representatives from the cities that weren't chosen by the 10
judges were repeatedly told there was little difference
between their cities and the 10 that were chosen. That was
little consolation to Lakeland's small delegation of a dozen
people, who were clearly disappointed.

"It's better to have tried and failed than to not have tried
at all," Mayor Buddy Fletcher said. "But I don't really
consider this a failure. We learned a lot here and it was
worth the effort. We'll be back again."

Commissioner Gow Fields wasn't so sure. "That's really a
question for the community to answer," he said.

Fields said one thing refreshing about the effort was to
learn that many projects touted by other cities are things
that Lakeland has been doing for a long time.

The 10 All-America Cities are Tuscaloosa, Ala.; Anchorage,
Alaska; Fountain, Colo.; Elgin, Ill.; Roswell, N.M.; Buffalo,
N.Y.; Huntington, N.Y.; Weslaco, Texas; Hampton, Va.; and
Everett, Wash.

The All-America City with the smallest population was
Fountain, with 15,197. The largest was the Buffalo region,
which boasts 1.17 million people.

Three of the 30 finalists have populations of between 80,000
and 90,000, including Lakeland, but none of them was chosen
as All-America cities.

Lakeland brought one of the smallest delegations, but
bringing a bunch more people was no guarantee of victory. One
of the largest delegations, about 160 people, came from
Hammond, Ind., which also walked away with nothing.

Officials from Roswell were pleased with their new All-
America distinction. Now, they said, they can be known as
something other than the world's UFO capital.

Rick Rousos can be reached at rick.rousos@theledger.com or
863-802-7516.

**

=A9 2002 The Ledger






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   Jun > Jun 18

              Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:13:06 -0400
Subject: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial  Intervention

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with
 >>Mantell? Was he actually at Godman field?

 >I think he was on the ground at Godman field, not in formation,
 >however a further update indicates that this pilot does not
 >believe in UFOs at all so could not conceive of Mantell chasing
 >anything other than a balloon.


Hi Bill,

Mantell wasn't at Godman field, Fort Knox. They were about to
fly past it, to the east of Godman, when they got the call from
Godman tower, on orders from Colonel Hix the base commander, to
turn left and to the southwest and try and intercept the object.

Mantell, and his flight of three were flying back from Marietta
Georgia on their way to Standiford Field in Louisville,Ky. They
never landed at Godman.
One of the four continued on to Standiford because he was low on
fuel. The other two followed Mantell for a short time however
Mantell eventually left the two behind and climbed for the
object.

Earlier I read mention of the aircraft being full of hundreds of
little holes or not full of holes. Either way it's nothing
unusual.
The F-1 one was an aluminum aircraft fastened together with 7-8
thousand flush headed and countersunk rivets - [to lessen
aerodynamic drag - that likely would have pulled their heads
through their aluminum sheeting upon impact.
I think the F-51 spiraled to the ground rather than spun-in
because of the wing separation due to high wing loading forces
and because of the attitude in which it struck the ground.
But that's just my opinion.


Don Ledger







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   Jun > Jun 18

             Re: After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:16:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:31:30 -0400
Subject: Re: After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 7:52 PM
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - :
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On

Well, it's a thankless job, isn't Errol, but surely you knew
that when you transcribed the article? Your handiwork is being
circulated on the "ufo.fringe.net" minus any reference to UFO
UpDates, or the comment "You can trust this information without
so much as a Web link, because it's been provided by very
reliable sources."

[Gives 'em something 'real' to talk about! <VBG> --ebk]

 >Keyed by ebk from a scan via David Haith & Mark Hall

What are you saying, this was FAXed?

[No, lo' rez scan that wouldn't OCR --ebk]

 >The Sunday Express

My impression is that this "Award winning newspaper" is more
like the 'New York Post' than the 'Wall Street Journal', is that
correct? Does anyone know? (Not that it matters. As depicted in
'Men in Black', J & K get all the latest UFO poop from the
tabloids.)

-kj








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   Jun > Jun 18

                      ABCNEWS On Floating Orb (+ Video)

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:26:32 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:32:44 -0400
Subject: ABCNEWS On Floating Orb (+ Video)


Source: ABCNEWS,

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/orb020614.html

Go to the page for video link!

Stig

***

Mystery Orb

'Unidentified Floating Object' Washes Up on S.C. Shore

**

June 14 =97 It looked like something from a sci-fi flick: a
mysterious silver orb, three feet in diameter, floating in the
surf off the South Carolina coast.

"They thought it was a giant beach ball, they were going to
bring in," said Marie Segneri, whose family found the orb
floating near their rented beach house at Isle of Palms. "They
swam out and said it was a very heavy ball, it was metal, had
numbers on it, and there was no way they were bringing it in."

The ball eventually washed up on the shore, causing alarmed
residents to call the police.

Authorities marked off an area around the orb with crime-scene
tape and tried to identify it. They turned to members of the Air
Force bomb squad, the Coast Guard and state officials for help,
but no one could identify the strange object.

There were numbers on the surface of the orb, but no other clues
that helped determine its origin.

NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
were contacted, but even they had no answers.


A Flotation Device... Maybe


Because of its weight =97 several hundred pounds =97 there's
speculation it might be a flotation device used by a dredge
company. But that theory only adds to the mystery =97 the orb has
no fasteners on it where a line or cable might have been
attached.

"We're calling it a UFO =97 an unidentified floating object," Isle
of Palms Fire Chief Ann Graham told The Associated Press.

According to The Associated Press, the orb cracked in half as it
was being brought to the town's public works department.

But the inside was as revealing as the outside =97 only seawater
spilled out.

"There was nothing green, nothing glowing," Graham told the news
agency. "It will probably just go to the scrap yard."

*

(Video link:)This silver orb =97 which weighs several hundred
pounds and measures three feet in diameter =97 washed up on the
South Carolina shore. (ABCNEWS.com)

**

ABCNEWS affiliate WCIV in Charleston, S.C., contributed to this
report.

Copyright =A9 2002 ABCNEWS Internet Ventures.







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   Jun > Jun 18

                             Re: Blimps - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:55:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:35:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - McCoy


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Blimps
 >Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:57:45 -0700

 >Hello All,

 >Daivd Acres, in a preivous post, wondered when Blimps came into
 >existence. Here it is, a long withthe general history of
 >Airships:

 >http://www.worldwar1.com/sfzepp.htm

Yep, good point, the USA is the Saudi Arabia
of Helium.

 >Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >helium necessary to keep them in the air?  Hydrogen blimps would
 >have handily exploded in the well documented onslaught of
 >American guns.

Exactly.

 >The Germans had given up on blimps as a result of not being able
 >to acquire helium from the United States just a few year prior
 >to 1942, and if the Germans (with greater resources) couldn't
 >get the stuff, how did the Japanese, with a much _smaller_
 >sphere of necessary resources and raw materials, get an
 >abundance of it?

 >snip<

Using balloons for target practice is one thing, simply going
nuts is another. Yes there was good reason the military was
jumpy as the Japanese had attacked Astoria, Oregon with the
coast artillery  nearly sinking Ilwaco (across the river)
Washington. The only battery capable of sinking the Japanese
sub,( a Spanish American war era anti ship mortar as I recall, )
was not able to fire due to a lack of command (in town at a
movie) authority.

The I-19 series subs raised Hob with shipping on the west coast,
there are several wrecks off the southern oregon coast. The fear
of invasion was palpable, but, I don't think that there was
nothing there on that night there are enough sightings of
somthing to make an argument that they were not shooting at thin
air.

One thing. Hydrogen, despite the fearsome reputation is not
readly flammable, you'd need an incidiary or tracer round to
ingnite a balloon filled with the gas. If the Hindenburg was
filed with gasoline Lakehurst N.J. would now not exist.

In all probability, The Hindenburg was killed due to it's doped
fabric, likely a nitrate dope, in fact a study by researchers on
the dope - paint - showed it to be simular in composition to ah,
_rocket fuel_


GT McCoy







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   Jun > Jun 18

                      UFO Over Sacred Sri Lankan Cliff

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:35:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:40:18 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Sacred Sri Lankan Cliff


Source: Ananova, June 17, 2002,

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_609455.html

Stig

***

UFO 'spotted hovering over sacred cliff'

**

Residents in Sri Lanka claim aliens are visiting sacred sites
and tourist attractions in a UFO.

Authorities are investigating several sightings of a mysterious
blue ball hovering in Dimbulagala.

A local UFO enthusiast says aliens are probably studying
technology used to construct ancient buildings.

Sanjaya Bandara said: "They might have travelled to our ancient
sites to find a key to the mysteries of the universe."

A TV reporter claims to have seen the object hovering over a
sacred cliff for more than a week.

Gamini Obeysekara, who works for the government channel
Rupavahini, said: "It took three days for me to get this strange
blue light on video tape. It seemed to heading towards the
sacred areas."

Dimbulagala, in north central Sri Lanka, houses historical ruins
dating back to the first century AD.

A team of astrophysicists from the University of Colombo are
investigating the reported sightings.

Dr Chandana Jayaratne said: "We cannot be sure until we
completely verify the story. It could well turn out to be
fabricated."

*

Story filed: 15:52 Monday 17th June 2002

**

Copyright =A9 2002 Ananova Ltd







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                      UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:48:38 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:42:08 -0400
Subject: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way


Source: The Times of India

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=3D13242179

Go the site for reader's comments!

Stig

***

UFO in Lanka? Clarke says no way

FARAH MIHLAR AHAMED

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, JUNE 17, 2002  10:09:03 AM ]

**

COLOMBO: Sri Lanka is abuzz over aliens after some villagers and
a journalist spotted an unidentified flying object (UFO) in the
north central town of Polonnaruwa, but visionary space scientist
Sir Arthur C Clarke has played down the local X File episode.

The unusually glimmering flying object was first spotted by a
farmer in Polonnaruwa, but its presence was also confirmed by
several others in the area including a television journalist,
local media reports said on Sunday.

The object had been seen over Sri Lankan skies for nearly a week
and eventually prompted the Sri Lankan Air Force to investigate
the matter, the reports added.

Polonnaruwa is an ancient Sri Lankan capital and is a
popular tourist attraction because it houses many rare
historical ruins dating back to the first century AD.

A team of astrophysicists - led by Dr Chandana Jayaratne of
the University of Colombo - has also started studying the
Sri Lankan sky to determine what the object is.

But for the internationally renowned author of several books on
this subject, Arthur Clarke, all the hype appears to be largely
unwarranted.

"I wish I would one day be able to meet a visiting alien, but I
don't for a moment agree that aliens are visiting the Earth in
UFOs making secret appearance of contacting a handful of human
beings," Clarke said in a statement.

"We need to discern enthralling science fiction from science
fact," he added.

According to Clarke, despite several investigations by NASA and
the US Air Force, no credible evidence has been found anywhere
in the world of aliens visiting the earth.

Clarke also warned that people were spending far too much
attention on investigating UFOs rather than studying NEOs or
Near Earth Objects like asteroids and comets that could crash on
earth and destroy life.

**

Copyright =A9 2002 Times Internet Limited. All rights
reserved.







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   Jun > Jun 18

                           New Planets Discovered

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:47:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:51:54 -0400
Subject: New Planets Discovered


Source: The Hindustan Times

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/150602/detFOR01.asp


Stig

***

27 new planets discovered

USA Today

**

European and US astronomers on Thursday announced the discovery
of two solar systems with planets in orbits similar to our own.

In all, astronomers announced they had found 27 previously
unknown planets, bringing the number of known planets
orbiting nearby stars to more than 100.

One group led by Geoffrey Marcy of the University of California-
Berkeley and Paul Butler of the Carnegie Institution of
Washington, DC, released details of 15 planets. A European team
led by Swiss astronomer Michel Mayor of the University of Geneva
unveiled details of 12 more, several days ahead of a planned
announcement at a science meeting.

"There must be billions of planetary systems like our own within
our Milky Way galaxy," Marcy says. His team found that the star
55 Cancri hosts a Jupiter-like planet occupying a near-circular
orbit, much like Jupiter's. The planet, a giant ball of gas,
takes about 14 years to circle 55 Cancri, a star 41 light-years
away in the constellation Cancer. A light year equals 5.89
trillion miles.

Marcy's team calculates that a planet like earth could safely
orbit 55 Cancri without disturbance from planets orbiting the
star.

The European team also reports on a different solar system with
a planet that resembles Jupiter in size and its circular orbit.

Astrobiologists say solar systems whose outlying gas giants
follow near-circular orbits might be more likely to have planets
with life. In theory, the Jupiter-like objects would screen
smaller planets closer to their star from comet impacts.

**

=A9Hindustan Times Ltd. 1997.








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   Jun > Jun 18

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 6.17.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 05:39:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:49:48 -0400
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 6.17.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

June 17, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
6.17.02


EXOBIOLOGY
The Search for Extraterrestrial Life

Planetary System Found that Resembles Ours
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/13/new.planets/index.html

Jupiter-Like Planet Could Point to Another Earth
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/planet_discovery_020613.html

What to Say When ET Finally Calls
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_vakoch_message_020613.html

CI: Symbolic Interpretation of Face
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


QUANTA
Science and Technology

Scientists Conquer Laser Beam Teleportation
http://abc.net.au/news/scitech/2002/06/item20020617070959_1.htm

Mars Airplane Soars on Earth
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/mars_plane_020612-1.html

Whither Europa? Researchers Regroup to Make Jupiter's Moon
NASA's Priority

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/europa_options_020612.html

Dramatic Increase in Supernova Explosions Looms
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/boom_times_020610-1.html

NASA Craft to Skim Over Comets
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/12/comet.probe/index.html

Mission Ready: CONTOUR's Tale Of Two Comets
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/contour_probe_020612.html


EXOTICA
Unexplained Phenomena

Tuning into a Sea Monster?
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/13/bloop/index.html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2002






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   Jun > Jun 18

                            Re: Blimps - Lehmberg

From: From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:14:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:56:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Lehmberg


 >From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:58:24 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >>Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >>helium necessary to keep them in the air? Hydrogen blimps would
 >>have handily exploded in the well documented onslaught of
 >>American guns.

 >I've not been following this particular debate, but as a long
 >time airship aficionado,

Now that's puzzling; you've not been following the debate of
something you profess more than average interest in? That's odd,
and in a less than perfect world would be evidence of possible
duplicity and so perhaps there is some non admitted agenda you
would pursue... but only in an imperfect world.

 >I can tell you that hydrogen filled
 >airships do not explode when hit by ordinary munitions. Solid
 >bullets and shrapnel do not have sufficient heat to ignite
 >hydrogen in contained balloonets; you need explosive or
 >incendiary rounds such as the Brock or Pomeroy rounds developed
 >to combat WW 1 Zeppelins. Ordinary ammunition just pokes holes
 >in gas cells, creating leaks but not fire.

Thank you so much for your contribution, Mr. Thompson, but I
think it safe to say (simply as one with substantial military
experience, and beyond the prerequisites of simple common sense)
that our boys were putting a little more up there than .22
rifle, short-round, and rimfire slugs.

 >>The Germans had given up on blimps as a result of not being able
 >>to acquire helium from the United States just a few year prior
 >>to 1942, and if the Germans (with greater resources) couldn't
 >>get the stuff, how did the Japanese, with a much _smaller_
 >>sphere of necessary resources and raw materials, get an
 >>abundance of it? Moreover, if these helium (of necessity)
 >>balloons or JTBs were the objects actually sighted over LA, why
 >>didn't they rain death and destruction on the city when they had
 >>the chance? The only damage incurred, by report, was
 >>embarrassingly self inflicted with the shrapnel resulting from
 >>the shells exploded on the surface of the mystery object and
 >>falling dangerously back to Earth.

 >Zeppelins are not "blimps." A blimp is a lighter than air ship
 >whose shape is dependent on gas pressure.

Yes, sir -- thank you, that was -most- helpful.

 >A Zeppelin has a
 >metallic framework to maintain its shape no matter how much
 >lifting gas it contains.

Very impressive; your knowledge of the subject is rich with
fascinating, albeit useless, details.

 >Helium is found almost exclusively in natural gas wells in the
 >US (some, I think, in wells in the Caucasus as well, in the
 >former USSR). The US refused to sell Germany helium after the
 >Hindenburg tragedy in 1937.

Do tell! If the US sold Germany helium _before_ 1937, why was
the... what was it... (?) "Zeppelin"... Hindenburg filled with
hydrogen?

 >Japanese Fu-Go balloons were inflated with hydrogen. They did
 >not start arriving over the US until much later. (As above, a
 >hydrogen balloon does not unfailingly explode when pierced by a
 >simple bullet. You need an incendiary round).

Ahh! Ahh! You mean like the tracers and large caliber
anti-aircraft rounds fired at, and exploded around, the "Fu-Go"
balloons over Los Angeles in 1942?

 >One bit of trivia you might find intriguing is the German
 >"Aphrodite" balloon. This was a small gas filled balloon,
 >launched from U-boats. It was a radar decoy, coated with
 >metallic paint and festooned with strips of metal foil. It was
 >designed to confuse Allied aircraft and warships hunting U-boats
 >with radar. I've never heard of the Japanese using such devices,
 >but the concept is simple and the technology easy to effect.....

Yeah... just the thing to mimic a UFO for the gullible, but
standing in sharp relief to my suspicion that there is not a
_shred_ of evidence from the, then, completely conquered and
then subjugated Japanese... that they (or the more powerful
Germans for _their_ part) had any PART in what occurred over Los
Angeles in 1942. Perhaps another questionable ally or outright
enemy? In as much as we had the helium, maybe it was one of
OURS, yes! That must be it! Occam's razor is satisfied and wins
again...

I don't know you, sir, so I am going to give you the benefit of
the doubt and the sincerity of your comments will be taken at
face value. But if a couple of the other guys in the room had
made these comments this way in this discussion I would have
been compelled to point out their tiresome and reflexive
CSICOPian denial, deliberate obfuscation of the discussion's
main point, and some pretty scurrilous tactics in the debate.
So, thank you sir, for your clarification on a couple of
decidedly immaterial points, but nothing that you provided here
is very helpful or anything other than non nutritious straw.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

P.S. A second look for you in the archives indicates we _have_
met before after all... and may I say you apparently continue
your tradition of inappropriate and distracting bottom fanning
and that it is just as ignoble now as it was then? Thank you,
sir, and Rebecca says "hi", <not!>

Finally, when you said, "Whatever else you can say about CSICOP,
they're not 'shadowy'." ...could not be any _more_ the complete
antithesis of the truth. They are _all_ shadow, not to put too
fine a point on it! They produce shadows, have shadows in their
membership, and live in shadow. One cannot readily _be_ more
shadowy than a "Center for the Silly and Insentient Commitment
of Obdurate Persons."
~~=D6~~ EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien
View" at his VSN URL. http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 18

               Re: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:41:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:01:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:28:17 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 ><snip>

 >>>Also, I received this report from one of my correspondents about
 >>>the Mantell case which changes my mind about this classic
 >>>incident...

 >>>"I spoke with the P-51 pilot about Mantell. This is what he
 >>>said...

 >>First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with Mantell?
 >>Was he actually at Godman field?

 >>Or is all of this information based upon something that "a" P-51
 >>pilot is commenting on based upon accounts he has seen in the
 >>news or otherwise?
 >
 >>A little clarity would help.
 >
 >>As I recall, Wendy Connors was able to locate some additional
 >>witness reports that were not included in the so called official
 >>Bluebook file on the case. And, as I recall from reading the
 >>reports, they were very interesting for what they did tell.
 >
 >Robert,
 >
 >What you may be referring to here are interrogation reports of
 >Air Force witnesses to the Godman UFO that turned up at the
 >Center for UFO Studies in Allen Hynek's papers. They described a
 >glowing object in the right time frame that was zooming up and
 >down from near the horizon to high overhead. It's been a while
 >so I no longer recall further details. They certainly cast doubt
 >on the Skyhook balloon explanation, as does the fact (last I
 >knew) that no one was ever able to place a Skyhook there at that
 >time on that date. (Shades of the Roswell Mogul balloon!)I know
 >a lot of very good investigators write this case off, but after
 >reading those additional reports I'm not so sure.


Hi Dick,

The Mantell case was one that I had cleared off my radar screen
as solved early on - however, I find myself becoming less
convinced as time goes by.
Too many loose ends.
The Skyhook balloon fits nicely into the puzzle both for the
Godman tower witnesses describing it as parachute-shaped and
shaped like an icecream [Skyhook profile at lower to medium
altitudes] while at upper altitudes [60,000 feet plus] it would
expand into a flattened spherical object that Mantell could have
seen-including it's scientific military package.
The thing is, what caused the balloon to rise from the medium to
upper altitude to affect this profile change in the first place
over such a short period of time? Where's the extra bouyancy
[lift] coming from [not thermals]? Where did the balloon come
from?
If the AF wanted to solve this one using a balloon as the
culprit, where are the records?
Let's not forget, as well, that witnesses had described this
thing from the ground as being huge-200 feet across, which a
Skyhook would not have been at low levels.
For them to perceive it at all it would have looked like a
baseball bat [heavy end up] down low.
Above all, what made Mantell take leave of his senses and push
above 12-15,000 feet without oxygen aboard? There was no mystery
then about anoxia. It was a well known hazard to pilots at
altitude even at the first of WWII.
Regardless of whether this was a balloon or a UFO, the result
was still the same for Mantell. Oxygen starvation.
There's a few more answers required to put this one to bed.
Perhaps we are dealing with two or three different objects here
which could explain the confusion?


Best,

Don Ledger







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   Jun > Jun 18

                      Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:12:53 -0400
Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post


To All:

Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
wondered why they don't hear from abductees more often. I
thought this might be a good time to ask them.

The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
in which I received them.

K. Wilson

---------------

You've asked a very interesting question - Why don't I post
more on UpDates? The reason is two-fold. I suffered a stroke in
November of 1999 and it affected my language skills. I sometimes
find it difficult to say what I mean and I feel this may affect
my credibility.

The second reason is I am tired of the arguing and posturing
that seems to be the focus of the List lately. And I'm talking
about the confrontations between those that claim abduction!
You'd think we suffer enough ridicule and isolation from the
general public - it's really a pity when it comes from within.

In my opinion, there are no 'experts' in this field - we're all
in the same boat. Can't folks just agree to disagree? Why does
it have to get so ugly? If ya can't stand the heat, you don't
have to get out of the kitchen - just turn off the oven!

After the stroke, I realized that my energy - and my stress
level - are adversely impacted by this kind of behavior. So,
it's just been easier to "delete" than expose myself to it. It's
truly a shame - the Updates list is a superb forum - imagine how
much better it would be without the nastiness and derision.

Michelle Guerin

---------------

Many times I have wanted to join the UpDates 'discussion'
regarding abductees, but each time have reminded myself of the
horrid treatment some of the abductee folks have received - a
very vicious and public flogging by some who seem to consider
themselves the Ultimate Abductees. Judging by the events on
UpDates in the past month especially, it should not come as a
surprise that some of us choose to be just 'lurkers' on UpDates,
with no plans to change that and become active participants
under the current circumstances.

Ingrid Hanson

---------------

As a clinical hypnotherapist who has worked with 'experiencers'
since 1989, many abductees have shared with me through the years
how negative and unsupportive many sites have been. Because of
this they have chosen not to post or respond to others on this
subject matter. I do not have personal experience with the UFO
UpDates List, only what has been repeatedly shared with me
through the years.

I have heard and seen everything from downright nastiness to
name calling which is un-productive for everyone. This subject
matter has a tendency to bring out heated passions and strong
opinions; but for discussions to be beneficial, this behavior
cannot exist. Simply suggesting that posters avoid this type of
name calling and conflict isn't going to stop these attitudes,
for public Lists are visited by people of all backgrounds,
consciousness, and coping skills.

Rather than trying to change people, those who choose not to
participate in negative bashing are best off taking their
questions and sharings elsewhere. Like attracts like!

Most sincerely,

Deborah Lindemann C.H.T.
http://www.cfree.org


---------------

As my dear friend Katharina knows, it is hard enough to live
with abductions, without having other people judging the
validity of what you are saying. Most everyone I've told
anything to in my life thinks I'm crazy, or making it all up
(except other abductees ).

People who don't have these experiences, have no clue of the
trauma we go through, and I wish they could understand that
there is more to reality than what we have in our little day-to-
day worlds.

My life has been HELL because of them - then for others to say
I'm crazy or making it up - just cuts to the core of my being. I
don't want this in my life - never have - so to make it up is
absurd. I don't want or need that kind of attention.

Kitty Miller

---------------


I did forward your request to a few friends who are 'abductees'
and also interested in the subject matter. I have to admit I no
longer frequent the more mainstream party line UFO lists such as
IUFO or UFO UpDates because I get bored with the posts. I find
that many of these larger Lists are teaming with disruptors and
muppets who tow the party line Ufology. Most do not want to even
get near the mind control issues, milab stuff or genuine
dialogue from real 'aware abductees'.

So, I guess that is my reason. I blew off these Lists because
they haven't offered me any useful info toward what I think is
really important.  Oh well..... Hope I haven't offended anyone
here, but time is precious!

Eve

---------------

I don't post on _any_ Lists or visit any chat rooms regarding UFO
stuff. I found, in the past, that those places are full of
ignorant people and people who are afraid of the truth. I don't
have the patience I used to have.

I don't feel like I should have to defend myself when I talk
about what I have seen and experienced.  I don't care if anyone
believes anything I say. So I feel no desire to attempt to
convince anyone of anything.

I don't want to argue about something that I never chose to
experience in the first place. I have mostly wished it would all
go away and let me live my life in peace. It pisses me off when
people insinuate that I talked publicly about my experiences
because I wanted the attention. That was not the kind of
attention that anyone in their right mind would want.

I talked publicly because I felt beholden to Budd and to the
others like me. I felt compelled to reach out and connect with
other people who shared my experiences because I felt there
would be strength in numbers, I wouldn't feel so alone in it all
and maybe I'd feel less scared by it all. I was fulfilling my
destiny in this life.  I didn't ask for any of it to happen to
me. No thanks...

I am totally fed up with the blind fools who claim there is no
physical evidence to prove 'they' exist and have been coming
here. What is my back yard, my dead dog, my neighbor's and
family's testimony and independent witness to the events? What
were the test results on the soil and the photos and the medical
and psychological exams on me? Chopped liver?

These people don't want the truth. They aren't ready for it.
Not by a long shot.


Deb
('Kathie' from 'Intruders')

---------------

I can relate to and understand everything the people above have
stated. I think all abductees can. We have all been in similar
situations and have felt all of these emotions at one time or
another.

The main reason I stopped posting was because of the way certain
people were behaving on the List. It seemed to me that things
were being written about the personal life of an abductee that
were completely unacceptable.

The rule I live by is not to ever divulge information about
another abductee or their experiences unless I have their
express written permission to do so.

The things that were written about one abductee in particular
crossed the line. The fact that it came from a fellow abductee
was one of the most distasteful things I have ever read on the
UFO UpDates List. As Michelle stated above, abductees experience
enough isolation and ridicule from the general public
[especially the debunkers] - to see this type of behavior coming
from one of our own is very sad and it is completely
unacceptable.


Katharina Wilson








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   Jun > Jun 18

                         Shockingly Close To A Book

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:15:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:24:32 -0400
Subject: Shockingly Close To A Book


Good Afternoon, All -

I have finished reading the Moseley/Pflock tome and found it
fairly enjoyable. The book featured material from the early 40s
and 50s which most of us are too young to remember. His travels
around the United States for saucer-lore was interesting and
provided a nice glimpse into our past. Not many of the people
mentioned come through un-scathed, but hell, they're all human
and why should we expect them to be anything else. And Moseley's
take on some of the back-room maneuvering is interesting all by
itself.

As for the question posed to me in the book, about what the
Lorenzens thought of my opinion that cattle mutilations were not
extraterrestrially influenced, they seemed to be of the same
opinion, though I think Coral thought more of them were the
result of Satanic worship than was the case (and I really hate
to mention this because it should breed a new firestorm).

For those interested in one man's observations about the
beginnings of the UFO era, this certainly fills the bill. Gives
an interesting glimpse into Moseley's character as well. He
really was a grave-robber.


KRandle







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                            Re: Blimps - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:15:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Aldrich


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>"Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >>Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >>helium necessary to keep them in the air?"

Hydrogen is easily generated in a number of different way.
However, I doubt that such proposed blimps or even balloon were
responsible for this incident.

 >Japan did have the ability to send aloft lighter than air craft.
 >However, there is no basis to assume a Japanese blimp was
 >responsible for the incident. A blimp quite obviously would not
 >have lasted very long. No blimps were sighted and the only
 >mentions of any are sheer speculation. Also, it is not at all
 >proven there was indeed any object for shells to explode against
 >and much reason to believe there was not.

 >However, Japan did use balloon bombs called Fugos. They were
 >fueled with hydrogen, not helium, and carried antipersonel and
 >incendiary bombs.

 >http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/fugo.htm

Fugos were a much later development toward the end of the war.

The Battle of Los Angeles is a very complicated and still
mysterious incident. The comments here so far haven't even
scratched the surface.

There was not just one object involved in the incident. Multiple
objects were involved.

The famous picture is another feature of the sighting apparently
unrelated to a third feature, a meteorological balloon.

Witnesses talk about multiple objects over Los Angeles. At the
same time there appears to be a large object moving up and down
Southern California, the picture about which everyone is
commenting. And finally, the Anti Aircraft Artillery had
previously released a meteorological balloon which the AAA
thought accounted for the target they fired on.

All official and press accounts are confusing and do not give a
clear picture about what occurred.

The incident starts off with the Navy giving the alert. (How did
the Navy know something was up? Radar? Observations from picket
ships? None of this is clear.)

The Japanese did have aircraft which could be launched from
submarines. One such craft bombed Oregon during the same time
frame.

Large amounts of ammo were expended against the object in the
photograph. These were the day before the proximity fuse, so a
direct hit or hit by flak dispersed at pre-determined altitudes
was necessary. In the case of a balloon penetration should have
brought it down.

Since the incident was so close to Pearl Harbor, official
probably obscured the reports of this event. The Army and the
Navy publicly disagreed on the extent and importance of the
incident.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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                            Re: Blimps - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:56:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:18:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Lehmberg


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>"Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >>Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >>helium necessary to keep them in the air?"

 >Japan did have the ability to send aloft lighter than air
craft.

That was not the issue, Mr. Novak. Nowhere was it remotely
intimated by me that they did not. That they did not likely have
easy access to helium and so provide for balloons that would
not, readily, explode, was.

 >However, there is no basis to assume a Japanese blimp was
 >responsible for the incident.

None, sir.

 >A blimp quite obviously would not
 >have lasted very long.

Is this to suggest that, perhaps, something did?

 >No blimps were sighted and the only
 >mentions of any are sheer speculation.

...speculations warmly embraced by the least ufologically
endowed, I might add.

 >Also, it is not at all
 >proven there was indeed any object for shells to explode against
 >and much reason to believe there was not.

...Nothing ever is, really (proven that is), but I have rational
suspicions regarding the lack of availability of that same
proof. The dearth of forthcoming information from government
institutions obsessed by obsessive and questionable secrecies
speaks very well to this, I submit. Be that as it may, I think
there is plenty to indicate that there is much that falls to the
side of something pretty damed peculiar happening over LA in
1942, and that the garden variety relfex of skeptibunky denial
does BEGIN to reflect or qualify it.

 >However, Japan did use balloon bombs called Fugos. They were
 >fueled with hydrogen, not helium, and carried antipersonel and
 >incendiary bombs.

A point not germane to the discussion, but distractingly true
none-the-less; no point here.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Jun > Jun 18

                             Re: Blimps - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:24:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:21:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Ledger


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:55:06 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Blimps
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:57:45 -0700

 >>Hello All,

 >>Daivd Acres, in a preivous post, wondered when Blimps came into
 >>existence. Here it is, a long withthe general history of
 >>Airships:

 >>http://www.worldwar1.com/sfzepp.htm

 >Yep, good point, the USA is the Saudi Arabia
 >of Helium.

 >>Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >>Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the non-flammable
 >>helium necessary to keep them in the air?  Hydrogen blimps would
 >>have handily exploded in the well documented onslaught of
 >>American guns.

 >Exactly.

 >>The Germans had given up on blimps as a result of not being able
 >>to acquire helium from the United States just a few year prior
 >>to 1942, and if the Germans (with greater resources) couldn't
 >>get the stuff, how did the Japanese, with a much _smaller_
 >>sphere of necessary resources and raw materials, get an
 >>abundance of it?

 >>snip<

 >Using balloons for target practice is one thing, simply going
 >nuts is another. Yes there was good reason the military was
 >jumpy as the Japanese had attacked Astoria, Oregon with the
 >coast artillery  nearly sinking Ilwaco (across the river)
 >Washington. The only battery capable of sinking the Japanese
 >sub,( a Spanish American war era anti ship mortar as I recall, )
 >was not able to fire due to a lack of command (in town at a
 >movie) authority.

 >The I-19 series subs raised Hob with shipping on the west coast,
 >there are several wrecks off the southern oregon coast. The fear
 >of invasion was palpable, but, I don't think that there was
 >nothing there on that night there are enough sightings of
 >somthing to make an argument that they were not shooting at thin
 >air.

 >One thing. Hydrogen, despite the fearsome reputation is not
 >readly flammable, you'd need an incidiary or tracer round to
 >ingnite a balloon filled with the gas. If the Hindenburg was
 >filed with gasoline Lakehurst N.J. would now not exist.

 >In all probability, The Hindenburg was killed due to it's doped
 >fabric, likely a nitrate dope, in fact a study by researchers on
 >the dope - paint - showed it to be simular in composition to ah,
 >_rocket fuel_


Hi GT,

And regarding your last comment. The Germans themselves knew
that the doped fabric was the real culprit not three months
after the disaster. The American investigator who did a study on
this a few years back eventually found the report which had been
buried by the German inquiry after it had been completed.

What tipped-off the American investigator that the hydrogen
wasn't burning was the fact that the nose rose upward while the
outer envelope was burning off the doped fabric and lightening
the structure. He mentioned in the video that all the times he'd
seen that film he'd never taken note of the nose of the
Hindenburg rising upward after it had crashed and while the
hydrogen was supposedly burning - an impossibility.

Observation is everything. He went looking for the German report
after he had determined that the doped fabric was the
problem. Someone had gotten hold of a piece of the Hindenburg's
fabric after the disaster and the investigator was able to get a
piece to analyze. That's when he discovered the volatility of
the doping compound.

I wonder if later on during the war one of those German
investigators might have gone to Von Braun and said, "Here, try
this stuff".


Best,

Don







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   Jun > Jun 18

                             Re: Mantell - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:33:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial  Intervention

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with
 >>>Mantell? Was he actually at Godman field?

 >>I think he was on the ground at Godman field, not in formation,
 >>however a further update indicates that this pilot does not
 >>believe in UFOs at all so could not conceive of Mantell chasing
 >>anything other than a balloon.

 >Hi Bill,

 >Mantell wasn't at Godman field, Fort Knox. They were about to
 >fly past it, to the east of Godman, when they got the call from
 >Godman tower, on orders from Colonel Hix the base commander, to
 >turn left and to the southwest and try and intercept the object.

 >Mantell, and his flight of three were flying back from Marietta
 >Georgia on their way to Standiford Field in Louisville,Ky. They
 >never landed at Godman.
 >One of the four continued on to Standiford because he was low on
 >fuel. The other two followed Mantell for a short time however
 >Mantell eventually left the two behind and climbed for the
 >object.

 >Earlier I read mention of the aircraft being full of hundreds of
 >little holes or not full of holes. Either way it's nothing
 >unusual.

 >The F-1 one was an aluminum aircraft fastened together with 7-8
 >thousand flush headed and countersunk rivets - [to lessen
 >aerodynamic drag - that likely would have pulled their heads
 >through their aluminum sheeting upon impact.
 >I think the F-51 spiraled to the ground rather than spun-in
 >because of the wing separation due to high wing loading forces
 >and because of the attitude in which it struck the ground.
 >But that's just my opinion.

 >Don Ledger

Don,

There were a lot of ground witnesses of the UFO at Godman,
however, not all of whose testimony has been published.

The accident report on Mantell's crash is somewhere in the
literature; I recall reading it with interest, but don't recall
where. It gave complete details about the mode of descent and
the wreckage. Maybe it was on that Sightings program (which I
have on videotape and will review one of these days).

I worked with the Sightings people on a number of programs, and
was highly impressed by the care they took to get things right.

They produced some of the highest quality UFO documentary
programs ever as far as I am concerned, whereas most such
"documentaries" are such trash that I refuse to participate
anymore.


  - Dick









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   Jun > Jun 19

              Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact

From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:33:52 -0400
Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact


No doubt many on the UpDates List have already seen this article
from today's NY Times. But many others may not have. In any
case, I thought it would be useful to pass it along.

Mike Briggs

mbriggs@ku.edu

-----

Source: The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?ex=3D102549597=
3&ei=3D1&en=3D8fc63718a4160f01

A Vigorous Skeptic of Everything but Fact

June 19, 2002
By DINITIA SMITH


These are some of the things that Paul Kurtz, chairman of
the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
the Paranormal and publisher of the magazine Skeptical
Inquirer, does not believe in: parapsychology, holistic
cures for animal illnesses, the universal effectiveness of
chiropractic, extraterrestrial beings, alternative
medicine, Bigfoot and organized religion.

For 35 years Mr. Kurtz has kept up a drumbeat of opposition
to all kinds of this nonsense, as he calls it. And now he
is turning his attention to the proliferation of the
paranormal in movies and on television. Although movies are
obviously fiction, Mr. Kurtz said, their power and
influence are enormous. Meanwhile some television shows are
presenting extraterrestrial conversations as a real thing.

"The television networks are selling communication with
the dead with abandon," Mr. Kurtz complained as he sat in
the headquarters of the Center for Inquiry in Amherst,
N.Y., near Buffalo, the secular humanist organization that
is the umbrella group for all his interests. Mr. Kurtz
pointed to John Edward's show, "Crossing Over," and to
James Van Praagh and George Anderson, mediums who also
appear regularly on television claiming to talk to the
dead.

Then "there are the increasing number of scenes in soap
operas that are set in heaven," Mr. Kurtz said, adding that
movies are also gross offenders. For instance, on Aug. 2,
Touchstone is scheduled to release "Signs," starring Mel
Gibson, about the mysterious appearance of crop circles on
a family farm. Another example is "The Mothman Prophecies"
with Richard Gere, released in January, in which the
characters are terrified by an otherworldly creature in the
form of a giant moth.

To monitor these trends his investigating committee, which
its members call Csicop (pronounced SY-cop), has opened a
National Media Center on Hollywood Boulevard in Los
Angeles. And tomorrow Mr. Kurtz and some 400 other skeptics
from around the world are to convene in Los Angeles at the
World Skeptics Congress at the Hilton Burbank Airport and
Convention Center to discuss these and other concerns.

"We are all concerned with this media distortion," he said.
"We consider this area of pseudoscience to be critical."

"We are the heroic defenders of science and reason," said
Mr. Kurtz, 76, an emeritus professor of philosophy at the
State University of New York at Buffalo and author or
editor of 35 books, including the "Secular Humanist
Manifesto II." And he is not above a touch of humor in his
crusade.

The March-April issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, for
instance, gave a special "Foot in Mouth Disease Award" to
the Rev. Jerry Falwell for holding pagans, abortionists and
feminists partly responsible for the Sept. 11 terrorist
attacks. And to another minister, Jack Brock, and the
Christ Community Church of Alamogordo, N.M., the magazine
gave a Pagan Pride Award for sponsoring "a Harry Potter
book burning."

"Our kind of saints are magicians and comedians," Mr. Kurtz
said. "They show by sleight of hand how you can deceive."
Magicians often perform at his group's conventions.

Mr. Kurtz's operations have an annual budget of $11
million. The center has small branches in Los Angeles and
Montclair, N.J., and has about 40 employees overall. There
are affiliated groups in Russia, France, Peru, Germany,
Africa and other locations.

In an effort to dispel the notion that paranormal powers
exist and to debunk its other targets, like organized
religion, Mr. Kurtz publishes magazines and newsletters,
including The Skeptical Inquirer, which Mr. Kurtz said had
a circulation of about 50,000. Other magazines include Free
Inquiry, The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine,
Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice and a few
others. Mr. Kurtz also operates a publishing house,
Prometheus Books, which brings out about 100 books a year.
In addition the center sponsors a student organization, the
Campus Freethought Alliance, and S.O.S. (for Save
Ourselves), a secular alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous.
"You don't need a higher spiritual power to get rid of
alcohol addiction," he said.

The struggle against organized religion is lonely. Religion
exerts a tyranny over society, he said, and for an American
politician "the worst crime is to be an agnostic." In
France, Fran=E7ois Mitterrand and former Prime Minister
Lionel Jospin reported they were agnostics. "They could not
get away with that here."

He added: "Years ago you never met anyone who believed in
Satan. Now it's common." By his count there are "1,350
cults and sects in the United States, from the Church of
Scientology to Hasidic Judaism," he said, speaking of
offshoots of mainstream religions.

Still Mr. Kurtz insists he is not anti-religion. "Some of
my best friends are Christians," he said with a twinkle in
his eye.

Not only does mainstream religion constitute a tyranny, but
beliefs like "Astrology and U.F.O.-ology have become major
religions of our day," he said.

"Among our strongest supporters are astronomers, because
they are confused with astrologers and U.F.O.-ologists and
Scientologists." The International Astronomical Union,
which names newly discovered bodies in the skies, have
named asteroid No. 6,629 Kurtz for him.

The bland, modernist headquarters of the center is a
virtual temple to reason. In the main reading room is a
bust of Mr. Kurtz's great hero, Charles Darwin, whose
theories of natural selection as the basis of evolution run
counter to some conservative Christians' belief system.
Every Feb. 12 the center celebrates his birthday with
lectures, films and a birthday cake.

On the walls are paintings to illustrate some of the
center's precepts. One, called "The Ascent of Reason,"
shows the figures of Hypatia, Democritus, Aristotle,
Socrates, Epicurus and Protagoras, who said, "Man is the
measure of all things." Another, "Prometheus Bound," is a
homage to Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods and
bequeathed it to humankind and taught humans arts and
sciences. There is also a strange painting based on "The
Last Supper," with Susan B. Anthony, Sidney Hook, Charles
Darwin, Leonardo da Vinci, Bertrand Russell, Voltaire and
other atheists and humanists seated around the table
instead of the apostles.

In addition there is a picture of Mr. Kurtz's friend the
comedian Steve Allen. Over the years Prometheus published
15 of Mr. Allen's books, including "Steve Allen on the
Bible, Religion and Morality."

Another room at the center is the Academy of Humanism, with
busts of Aristotle, Socrates and great humanists. The
basement holds the center's collection of some 35,000 books
and pamphlets relating to evolution, secular humanism,
atheism and skepticism.

Mr. Kurtz, who was born in Newark, the son of a
businessman, was left-wing in his youth, he said. But
serving in the Army in World War II taught him the dangers
of ideology. He entered the Dachau and Buchenwald camps
after they were liberated. He also became disillusioned
with Communism when he encountered Russian slave laborers
who had been taken to Germany forcibly and refused to
return to the Soviet Union at the end of the war.

As an undergraduate at New York University in the 1940's
Mr. Kurtz came under the influence of the philosopher
Sidney Hook and pragmatism. He wrote his Ph.D. thesis at
Columbia University on value theory, on whether there can
be a science of ethics. He is married to Claudine Vial, a
retired French teacher. They have four children, including
Jonathan, 33, a vice president of Prometheus Books.

Mr. Kurtz founded the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal when he was
teaching at Buffalo in the 1970's. He said he had noticed
that students were suddenly saying that they believed in
astrology, U.F.O.'s and other mystical systems. In 1973 he
published "The Humanist Manifesto II." It set forth his
philosophy of pragmatic skepticism, which he saw as a
continuation of John Dewey's philosophy of pragmatism.

Today one of Mr. Kurtz's biggest challenges, in addition to
the proliferation of people talking to the dead in movies
and on television, is Islam. "Islam is a great religion, a
great culture," he said. "It contributed to the
preservation of science in the 8th, 9th and 10th
centuries." But there is a need for a scientific analysis
of Islam's claims, such as the belief of some Muslims that
religious martyrs are greeted by 72 virgins in Paradise.

"There is a rich tradition of inquiry into Islam dating
back to the 19th-century French and German scholarly
critiques," Mr. Kurtz said. "There are many versions of the
Koran. We don't know if we have the authentic one. Muhammad
never wrote anything down. Some of it was written 150 years
later." As in the Bible, the prophet's words in the Koran
and the Hadith, his collected sayings, were recorded by
followers.

"Islam desperately needs a Protestant-like Reformation," he
continued. The Islamic system is the product of "a nomadic,
agrarian society, pre-modern and pre-urban, which they are
trying to apply to the contemporary world."

Mr. Kurtz is well aware of the dangers of criticizing
Islam. "Anything critical of Islam, you can get a fatwa,"
he said. But no matter, he said. "My main interest is
defending humanism as an alternative morality, of happiness
here and now, of autonomy and individual freedom and
dignity, and of the value of the exuberance of this life."

He concluded, "Islam and Judaism and Christianity are
false."









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   Jun > Jun 19

                 Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:51:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:36:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Hall


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:48:38 +0200
 >Subject: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way

 >Source: The Times of India

 >http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=3D13242179

 >Go the site for reader's comments!

 >Stig

 >UFO in Lanka? Clarke says no way

 >FARAH MIHLAR AHAMED

 >TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, JUNE 17, 2002  10:09:03 AM ]

 >COLOMBO: Sri Lanka is abuzz over aliens after some villagers and
 >a journalist spotted an unidentified flying object (UFO) in the
 >north central town of Polonnaruwa, but visionary space scientist
 >Sir Arthur C Clarke has played down the local X File episode.

 >The unusually glimmering flying object was first spotted by a
 >farmer in Polonnaruwa, but its presence was also confirmed by
 >several others in the area including a television journalist,
 >local media reports said on Sunday.

 >The object had been seen over Sri Lankan skies for nearly a week
 >and eventually prompted the Sri Lankan Air Force to investigate
 >the matter, the reports added.

 >Polonnaruwa is an ancient Sri Lankan capital and is a
 >popular tourist attraction because it houses many rare
 >historical ruins dating back to the first century AD.

 >A team of astrophysicists - led by Dr Chandana Jayaratne of
 >the University of Colombo - has also started studying the
 >Sri Lankan sky to determine what the object is.

 >But for the internationally renowned author of several books on
 >this subject, Arthur Clarke, all the hype appears to be largely
 >unwarranted.

 >"I wish I would one day be able to meet a visiting alien, but I
 >don't for a moment agree that aliens are visiting the Earth in
 >UFOs making secret appearance of contacting a handful of human
 >beings," Clarke said in a statement.

 >"We need to discern enthralling science fiction from science
 >fact," he added.

 >According to Clarke, despite several investigations by NASA and
 >the US Air Force, no credible evidence has been found anywhere
 >in the world of aliens visiting the earth.

 >Clarke also warned that people were spending far too much
 >attention on investigating UFOs rather than studying NEOs or
 >Near Earth Objects like asteroids and comets that could crash on
 >earth and destroy life.

 >Copyright =A9 2002 Times Internet Limited. All rights reserved.


Can anyone provide a verified address for Arthur C. Clarke in
Sri Lanka? I would like to send him a copy of 'The UFO Evidence,
Volume II', but it will cost me something and I don't want it to
vanish in the jungles of Asia without reaching him.

- Richard Hall









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   Jun > Jun 19

                            Re: Blimps - Thompson

From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:28:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:10:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Thompson


 >From: From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:14:00 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Paul Thompson <MrApol@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:58:24 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

<snip>

I see no reason for so much spleen over what was intended as a
little factual side information.

I was not reading the 1942 LA panic debate. I only read the
messages that had "blimp" in the subject line.

It doesn't matter what size anti-aircraft ordnance the US was
using over Los Angeles in 1942; the fact is, solid slugs of any
size, lead or copper jacketed, and simple shrapnel will not
ignite a hydrogen filled gas cell. Tracer ammo won't either, in
as much as the tracer compound burns out in the first few
hundred yards of travel.

In World War 1, the British Royal Flying Corps and Navy Air
Service peppered Zeppelins with artillery and machine guns for
months without igniting a single airship. They did bring down a
few by simply shredding the Germans' gas cells to such an extent
the lifting gas all leaked out. It was until a pilot named
Reggie Warneford got above a Zeppelin in his Morane Saulnier
monoplane and dropped twenty pound bombs on the airship that a
Zeppelin was brought down in flames. Later in the war, Brock and
Pomeroy rounds were used to torch Zeppelins aloft. The French
used Le Prieur rockets (fired from Nieuport biplanes) to attack
Zeppelins and observation balloons.

All of this is more facts than are called for perhaps, but it's
merely to point out that hydrogen filled aerial devices are not
bombs waiting to go off. The Zeppelin Luft Reederei carried
passengers in perfect safety for over twenty years, not a single
fatality (how many airlines today can say that?) They used
hydrogen exclusively. The very public loss of the Hindenburg put
an end to Zeppelin travel without helium, which the US
government was unwilling to sell to the Nazi controlled company.

I don't know from whence the big chip on your shoulder comes,
but I was just sharing a little information.

See also:

Douglas Robinson, "Zeppelin"
Arch Whitehouse, "The Zeppelin Fighters"
John Toland, "Ships in the Sky"

Paul Thompson








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                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:58:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:13:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >To All:

 >Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >wondered why they don't hear from abductees more often. I
 >thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >in which I received them.

 >K. Wilson

 >---------------

<snip>

What about, if EBK approves, having two lists - UFOs and
Abductees?  The two topics could still come together on the
SDI show itself, but perhaps a strictly Abductee list might
not attract as much negativity as the current mixed list?

 From the sound of the non-poster abductees, the traffic would
increase due to more being willing to post, so would you, Errol,
have enough time to accommodate the two separated lists?


Eleanor White









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               Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:01:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:14:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bourdais


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >To All:

 >Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >wondered why they don't hear from abductees more often. I
 >thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >in which I received them.

 >K. Wilson


Many thanks for this very courageous message. We have to bear
with the same problem in France, the leader for skepticism.

As a result, it is very difficult to find, study and, even more,
to publish abductee's testimonies. But I know a few, personally.


Gildas Bourdais








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                             Re: Blimps - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:11:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:17:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Ledger


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Blimps

<snip>

 >>However, Japan did use balloon bombs called Fugos. They were
 >>fueled with hydrogen, not helium, and carried antipersonel and
 >>incendiary bombs.

 >>http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/fugo.htm

 >Fugos were a much later development toward the end of the war.

 >The Battle of Los Angeles is a very complicated and still
 >mysterious incident. The comments here so far haven't even
 >scratched the surface.

 >There was not just one object involved in the incident. Multiple
 >objects were involved.

 >The famous picture is another feature of the sighting apparently
 >unrelated to a third feature, a meteorological balloon.

 >Witnesses talk about multiple objects over Los Angeles. At the
 >same time there appears to be a large object moving up and down
 >Southern California, the picture about which everyone is
 >commenting. And finally, the Anti Aircraft Artillery had
 >previously released a meteorological balloon which the AAA
 >thought accounted for the target they fired on.

 >All official and press accounts are confusing and do not give a
 >clear picture about what occurred.

 >The incident starts off with the Navy giving the alert. (How did
 >the Navy know something was up? Radar? Observations from picket
 >ships? None of this is clear.)

 >The Japanese did have aircraft which could be launched from
 >submarines. One such craft bombed Oregon during the same time
 >frame.

 >Large amounts of ammo were expended against the object in the
 >photograph. These were the day before the proximity fuse, so a
 >direct hit or hit by flak dispersed at pre-determined altitudes
 >was necessary. In the case of a balloon penetration should have
 >brought it down.

 >Since the incident was so close to Pearl Harbor, official
 >probably obscured the reports of this event. The Army and the
 >Navy publicly disagreed on the extent and importance of the
 >incident.


Hi Jan,

I asked this question earlier on this thread. So far-no answer:

Wasn't someone killed downrange somewhere due to spent triple-A?


Best,

Don ledger






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                 Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:18:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:20:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hall


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >To All:

 >Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >wondered why they don't hear from abductees more often. I
 >thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >in which I received them.

 >K. Wilson

 >--------

<snip>

 >Katharina Wilson

Katharina,

Thank you for this very interesting and important feedback. I
hope some of the listers who are at least open-minded are paying
attention.

What all of you are saying conforms closely to what I learned by
interacting with something like 150 "experiencers" before I
became a burnout case.

One of the major problems is that many skeptics are unable to
see that serious, hardcore UFO reports establish the reality of
probable visitations; therefore, abductions seem totally "off-
  the-wall" to them. They lack the context to understand that
what you (all) are trying to communicate fits very well into a
well- established pattern of evidence.

Your "message" also strongly refutes the wishful thinking of
people like Greer and Bassett who apparently yearn for
benevolent "Space Brothers" and who bend and twist data to serve
their own nefarious (in my opinion) activities.

More than once I have guiltily thought about how ironic and
satisfying it would be for those apparently amoral space bugs to
have their way with Phil Klass, Steven Greer, and other selected
parties. Maybe a barbed-wire anal probe would forcefully induce
some understanding.


  - Dick








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               Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bassett

From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:26:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:32:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bassett


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >wondered why they don=E2=80=99t hear from abductees more often. I
 >thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >in which I received them.

 >K. Wilson

<snip>

Katharina,

This was an excellent idea. The responses were revealing.

Aductee/contactee/experiencers are human beings caught between
two paradigms, two worlds. Their number can only be estimated,
but there are indications it could be dramatically large.

Many are "in the closet" and suffer an almost identical pattern
of problems faced by millions of members of the gay and lesbian
community.  They are essentially disenfranchised. Their
government will not even consider their position.

At some point and in some manner these individuals must consider
exercising their influence based upon the power of their common
experience. If their numbers are as large as suspected, they
could as a group have determined the outcomes of every
presidential election in this century except the Reagan
landslides, not to mention a host of congressional elections.

Those "in the closet" can utilize the secret ballot. Those who
are public about their experience can come together to demand
political redress.

Is there any other set of people on this planet who have a more
profound bond?  Only great effort on the part of the government
in suppressing and managing the UFO/ET/Disclosure reality has
prevented this bond from becoming a political force for change.


Regards,

Stephen Bassett








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                             Re: Blimps - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:40:15 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:37:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Novak


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:56:45 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

This is the only time I will adress this sort of veiled
duplicity Mr Lehmberg. Further posts of a similar nature, i.e.
irrelevant and antagonizing, will be ignored. I realize being
skeptical invites animosity but I find there is no need to allow
it to taint and distort rational discussion. I am a new arrival
here and would much rather discuss the issues at hand before
allowing myself to become embroiled in any "believer",
"skeptibunker" arguments.

 >That was not the issue, Mr. Novak. Nowhere was it remotely
 >intimated by me that they did not. That they did not likely have
 >easy access to helium and so provide for balloons that would
 >not, readily, explode, was.

Perhaps if you had been clear in just what you were intimating
it would not have been neccessary to make my own deductions?

You stated....

 >Assuming these objects over Los Angeles in 1942 were Japanese
 >Terror Blimps (JTBs), where did they get the helium necessary
 >to keep them in the air?  Hydrogen blimps would have handily
exploded in the well documented onslaught of American guns.

This can easily be interpreted to mean that not only did you
feel helium was unavailable but that hydrogen would not be used.
Therefore it appears you insinuate that the Japanese would not
have been willing, therefore "capable" of using balloons or
"blimps" which you for no apparent reason, decided to assume in
your hypothesis was the culprit. Myself and others apparently
made the same deduction and provided you with evidence via
precedent that Japan had, and used, hydrogen for lighter than
air craft which you quite obviously appear to imply they would
not. I see no fault with my post and find it's entirely relevant
to yours.

And not only this but you also stated.

 >The Germans had given up on blimps as a result of not being able
 >to acquire helium from the United States just a few year prior
 >to 1942, and if the Germans (with greater resources) couldn't
 >get the stuff, how did the Japanese, with a much _smaller_
 >sphere of necessary resources and raw materials, get an
 >abundance of it?

Which is another apparent mistaken assumption on your part which
is also what I myself was addressing. It is clear you were
assuming Japan had no means, or any they were willing to use
such as hydrogen, for lighter than aircraft. You were mistaken
and I sought to point this out and did. My apologies if this
makes you uncomfortable.

If you agree there is no basis to assume a blimp was present
then why bother hypotheticaly speaking as if one were? Is this
what could also be considered as attempting to misdirect the
discussion as you accuse others of doing? It appears as though
it is as it is entirely irrelevant though it was regardless,
graciously addressed and corrected by myself and others here.

 >Is this to(sic) suggest that, perhaps, something did?

Of course not and this is another somewhat vague attempt to bait
and misdirect. It was quite simply a statement of the obvious
regarding the wholly unfounded assumption that a blimp was
responsible. It was meant to point out the absurdity of such an
assumption while trying to keep the point being made
inoffensive.

Your carefully worded paragraph regarding secrecy and suspicion
is to me a standard attempt to link government secrecy with the
proof needed to validate beliefs. It appears as simply another
assumption that "since the government is hiding something they
must be hiding the proof that we are looking for". Albeit it is
carefuly crafted in this instance to disguise this insinuation
and remain within the realm of acceptable speculation.

But such an idea is also without foundation and in all reality
the evidence sought quite likely just does not exist.

How pointing out the massive inconsistencies in the story and
the available information which has led to and supports my
tentative conclusion is "garden variety skeptibunkery" is not at
all clear. Even less clear is how this can validate your
suspicions. Again I am forced to interpret your meaning which I
suspect may be your intention. Because I find the material leads
me to a different position on the subject means yours is the
more valid? This is illogical and without any apparent basis for
serious consideration.

 >"A point not germane to the discussion, but
 >distractingly true none-the-less; no point here."

The whole post was entirely relevant to the assertions and
assumptions that you brought to the discussion. It revealed why
your entire post was without merit and had no basis in fact. It
demonstrated the errors in your points. That it took time and
for us to address them and led away from the topic at hand is
wholly of your own doing as you are responible for bringing them
into the discussion.

Mr. Lehmberg. I have read your posts to others after reading
your replies to me and find that you are somewhat disingenuous
in your statements. Please remain with the topic at hand if you
wish to avoid these irrelevant tangents.








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                       Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:26:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:35:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic


 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:57:57 +1000
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

<snip>

 >I have contacted the LA Times and am waiting to find out if a
 >reproduction of the original print before it was published is
 >possible and what the fee will be. I suppose I may need to
 >contact them again, maybe in writing or by phone. I tried a year
 >ago and if I remember correctly was told it would be fairly
 >expensive but I never followed up.

 >I have also contacted a dealer in historic newspapers within the
 >past two days but doubt this will prove worthwhile as it appears
 >the newspapers printed copy also shows the spotlights abruptly
 >cutoff. Why the photo would have been retouched in this manner
 >is also a mystery. As soon as, and if I have a copy in my
 >possession it will be made available. I'm all for others
 >attempting to locate one as I have been trying for some time to
 >obtain one and it is not in the least proving to be an easy
 >undertaking.

 >But I do myself think it would do much to at the least satisfy
 >the questions of just what is shown in the photo and "was it
 >truly altered?" once a viable copy is available.>

With regard to the picture: if we can get a good print or better
yet two good prints at two different exposure levels, we may be
able to determine whether or not there was an opaque object at
the "focal point" of the light beams.

I have always marvelled at how bright the images of the beams
are in the newspaper reproductions. A beam like that can be seen
by light scattering from atmospheric dust. But it is not
particularly bright. I wonder if those are long exposures
(seconds?). At any rate, the brightness of the image of a beam
at any direction you are looking along the beam ius a result of
the summation of light along the sighting direction. The
summation involves adding all the light as the sighting
diretcion passes through the "thickness" (diameter) of the beam.

If there were an opaque object it would block part of the beam
and thus reduce the total brightness of the reflected light.

On the other hand, if the object were reflective itself (not
black) it could increase the amount of reflected light.

There does not seem to be evidence of a specular (mirror like)
reflector at the focus of the beams.

However, if the exposure level of the film was saturated by the
brightness of the beams (which it seems to be in the half-tone
reproductions) then increased exposure due to reflectivity of an
object in the beams may not show up.

The only way to be sure is to get a couple of prints at
different printing exposure levels (unless one can get the
negative to work with, which is the ideal case).








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                             Re: Blimps - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:40:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Novak


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Blimps


 >"There was not just one object involved in the incident. Multiple
 >objects were involved."

This has not been verified or cooborated by any reliable
sources. All mentions of various objects being sighted save the
red flare balloon are at hopeless variance with eachother. So
how does anyone know which ones are even accurate much less
indicative of something actually being sighted? There was a
report of 25 planes which the same CMDR who made the report
later recanted as he felt he was mistaken. There was another
report of 9 planes, unverified. And still more reports of whole
squadrons. Yet none are verifiable and many military observers
state that they saw nothing in the sky save flak from the
shelling. The eyewitness accounts are at such extreme variance
it is impossible to give any of them more than cursory
consideration as no clear indications can be gleaned from them.

 >"The incident starts off with the Navy giving the alert. (How did
 >the Navy know something was up? Radar? Observations from picket
 >ships? None of this is clear.)

The alarm was sounded because the radar blip was tracked moving
close in to the shoreline. When noticed within what appeared to
be 120 miles of west of Los Angeles the anti aircraft batteries
were put on ready to fire status by the Navy. When the radar
indicated the blip was within a few miles of the coast the
blackout was ordered.

At this point it must be remembered the prevailing emotional
status of the populace and personell involved at the time. The
AAA units had been berated for their earlier lack of response in
the submarines attack on Ellwood. The military was convinced,
and had this confirmed with the sub attack the previous night,
that an attack on the coast was a strong possibility. The
public, having endured all of this also with the exception of
the AAA units reprimands, was also primed for an event with
further successions of alerts.

After the blackout numerous sightings were reported none of
which were confirmed or cooborated and many of which are shown
to be wholly false. And these sightings of planes were reported
despite radar having lost the target.

The only ones who appear to have acted in a cautious, and in
hindsight correct manner was the Army Air Force who waited for
confirmation before committing itself to action.

Now given the evident and repeatedly noted intensity of concern
and "invasion hysteria" it is reasonable to consider that little
was needed to set in motion the ensuing debacle. And this
initial momentum could very well have been the red flare balloon
which appears to be considered by the documentation to be fairly
accurately verified.

Interesting though that no visual confrimations were made before
putting the AAA batteries on alert. This was common and almost
mandatory prctice according to Encyc, Brittanica due to early
radars strong tendency for mistakes and the lack of well trained
operators to use such a then new tool. This to me is another
indication of military ineptness in this incident.

 >"Large amounts of ammo were expended against the object in the
 >photograph. These were the day before the proximity fuse, so a
 >direct hit or hit by flak dispersed at pre-determined altitudes
 >was necessary. In the case of a balloon penetration should have
 >brought it down."

Yes such a hit should have brought a balloon down but it should
also be noted there are almost no mentions of balloons being
found at all during the war. Again, given the proximity to water
and not knowing the prevailing winds or their strength it is
possible a balloon could have ended up wet and never found.

Also, the photograph in question is a snapshot of one moment in
time. What would we see if it were film? Would we see an
"object" caught in the lights? Or would we see lights criss
crossing the sky searching for a target? I suspect the latter
strongly and feel that a large part of the eth proposal is based
upon using this photograph which happend to be taken at a moment
when they converged as proof that an "object" was caught in
them.

This is another reason I feel it is so important to reveal the
truth regarding the photo. It is almost a certainty in my mind
that it has been doctored. Why doctored? The answer is easy. To
help support a misrepresented story biased towards et.

 >"The Japanese did have aircraft which could be launched from
 >submarines. One such craft bombed Oregon during the same time
 >frame."

I-17 CDR Nishino in a later interview stated that he did not
launch any planes or balloons. They fired at what they thought
was the city but in reality was the oil field and promptly left
fearing the appearance of allied ships.








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 23:47:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:45:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Young


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:06:20 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:35:37 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

<snip>

 >The balloon in question was noted in "THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN
 >WORLD WAR II; DEFENSE OF THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE". An article
 >available online from the Museum of San Fransisco. The balloon
 >in question I believe was a common flare balloon and these were
 >reported fairly often during the war though whether or not all
 >these reports were correct is unverifiable.

 >Nowhere in any official accounts are there any mentions of any
 >objects being "caught" in the spotlights. Only in the
 >sensationalized versions available from pro ufo sources. The
 >balloon in question is most likely simply responsible for only
 >for beginning the whole affair. Concerning the areas proximity
 >to the ocean and givin that we do not know the prevailing
 >directions of the winds at the time it is concievable that if
 >indeed a balloon was shot down it could easily have ended up in
 >the water never to be found if it was even indeed hit.

 >The battalions on duty had been berated for their lack of
 >response to the previous nights attack on Ellwood Oil Field. A
 >major concern at the time was attack on our west coasts and the
 >Ellwood attack confirmed these worries and intensified them. The
 >public was highly agitated as is evident from various accounts
 >of the period and the reactions to the fiaso by the public
 >afterwards. Even more nervous would be the AAA units and
 >commanders berated for, and responsible for, failing to respond
 >to the previous nights attack. This all resulted in what the
 >Army eventually admitted was probably a case of jittery nerves
 >on the part of it's personell.

 >They were hit with several alerts immediately prior to the
 >event. They were placed on "Green" alert which means "ready to
 >fire". Radar which at the time was notorious for it's
 >unreliability had reported a bogey then lost it. Apparently all
 >it took was a sighting of "something" over the city and all was
 >bedlam thereafter. They were apparently taking no chances.

Paul:

I think that you are absulutely correct here. I had not realized
that the japanese sub attack on the oil facilities had been the
night before. Jeez, what does it take to have the jitters during
enemy attacks instead of myserious flying saucers?

Artillery units launched meteorological balloons to determine
wind direction and speed. Anti aircraft artillery needed this
data even more because of the high angle of fire often employed.

But, I wonder if balloons with flares were used for target
ranging, or at night? My experience was with field artillery and
missile units 30 years ago. Maybe somebody on this list with
info on AAA balloon use during that era could help out.


Clear skies,

Bob Young







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   Jun > Jun 19

                   Documentary On Friedman Airs In Canada

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:05:34 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:46:54 -0400
Subject: Documentary On Friedman Airs In Canada


Source: Halifax Daily News

http://www.canada.com/halifax/aroundtown/story.asp?id=3D{D93A141D-6669-48BC-=
9F04-F9E35BA9F70E}

Stig

***

Wednesday =BB June 19 =BB 2002

Maritime Mulder hits Space channel

**

By MARLA CRANSTON

The Daily News

***

Stanton T. Friedman's fascination for outer space =97 and his
habit of questioning authority =97 began early in life.

As a Grade 3 student in New Jersey, he got in trouble for
correcting a teacher who told the class the sun stood still,
while planets revolved around it. The next day, Friedman lugged
his encyclopedia to class to prove the entire solar system,
including the sun, moved around the centre of the galaxy. So he
learned early he'd better have facts to back up his arguments.
Which comes in handy if you're going to be a UFO expert.

Now living in New Brunswick, the highly-sought lecturer and
author is the subject of a documentary produced by Halifax's
Redstar Films, airing tonight on Space: The Imagination Station.
Stanton T. Friedman IS Real! follows the real-life Fox Mulder to
a convention in California, to his chaotic basement office at
home in Fredericton, and to the famed UFO crash site Roswell,
N.M., which has become a veritable tourist trap of alien lore.

The film interviews Friedman's followers and detractors, also
covering his early career as a nuclear physicist for companies
such as General Electric and Westinghouse, and on classified
nuclear aircraft projects.

"He looked at the evidence and came to a scientific conclusion
when he was younger that flying saucers do exist," says the
film's director Paul Kimball.

Friedman is uncomfortable with the limitations of a 45-minute TV
show summing up his lifelong quest to expose government
coverups, but he says Kimball gives viewers a good snapshot. (In
December, he enjoyed being a guest on Dan Aykroyd's 65- episode
series on the paranormal, but it was canned when the network was
sold.) Two weeks from now, Friedman returns to Roswell for the
town's annual anniversary "crash bash," and in August, he'll ham
it up in Kimball's vampire flick Eternal Kiss, making a cameo as
a vampire expert. Despite his healthy sense of humour, Friedman
is completely serious about his work, and expects to be
vindicated one day when humans make contact with an alien
civilization.

"I guess I'm convinced this really is the biggest story of the
past millennium " if the major news media =97 the New York Times,
Washington Post, 60 Minutes =97 would spend one-tenth the effort
going after the Cosmic Watergate that they put into such
important stories as Monica Lewinsky and Gary Condit and Elian
Gonzales, it would take them less than six months.

"I don't expect to convince everybody. That's not my goal. My
goal is to educate people if they're willing to listen. I don't
care whether you believe. Just give me a fair shake."

Stanton T. Friedman IS Real! premieres tonight at 8 p.m. on
Space: The Imagination Station. To learn more about Friedman's
research or to share UFO sightings or tips, call his hotline at
1-877-457-0232 or e-mail fsphys @brunnet.net.

**

mcranston@hfxnews.southam.ca

**

=A9 Copyright 2002 The Daily News

Copyright =A9 2002 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest
Global Communications Corp.

All rights reserved.








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   Jun > Jun 19

                            Re: Mantell - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:50:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Ledger


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]

<snip>

 >There were a lot of ground witnesses of the UFO at Godman,
 >however, not all of whose testimony has been published.

 >The accident report on Mantell's crash is somewhere in the
 >literature; I recall reading it with interest, but don't recall
 >where. It gave complete details about the mode of descent and
 >the wreckage. Maybe it was on that Sightings program (which I
 >have on videotape and will review one of these days).

 >I worked with the Sightings people on a number of programs, and
 >was highly impressed by the care they took to get things right.

 >They produced some of the highest quality UFO documentary
 >programs ever as far as I am concerned, whereas most such
 >"documentaries" are such trash that I refuse to participate
 >anymore.


Hi Dick,

I was in a few of those myself with Chris Styles however I was
mostly in the background. Even my airplane made it in there -
  used as a flying camera platform.

I ran across a streaming video of one of your Sighting segments
while looking through some Washington Capital UFO sighting
websites last night. KRandle was in there as well.

I'll check out that site and see if I can find the Mantell
segment. The dreaded spin has been utilized by the movies for
years as a deadly condition into which an aircraft can get - and
for some aeroplanes it is deadly [in particular most large
aircraft] however when I received my civilian flight training,
we had to do spins here in Canada in order to get our tickets.
It's disconcerting at first but you can get used to them-as is
evidenced by many aerobatic displays at airshows.

The P-51/F-51 was/is a tough machine and could handle spins
quite well. But what is not publicized by the movies - probably
because it is not as dramatic looking as a spin - is the spiral
dive - a wide decending/banking turn - in cross section like the
coil spring in a car - which is deadly for three reasons.

The first is that when entered into, it is not easily picked up
by the novice pilot. Secondly because it causes the airplane to
lose altitude very quickly and third because it causes higher
wingloadings for the outside-and higher wing-than it does for
the inside lowered wing causing a twisting motion. It's for the
last reason that I figure the F-51 went into a spiral whereupon
the wing separated. That eliminated one fuel tank and the
ruptured fuel line cross feeds probably drained much of the
remaining fuel, starving the  engine and stopping it before it
impacted the ground as evidenced by the condition of the prop
after the crash.

The engine wasn't developing power when Mantells plane hit the
ground.

It would be interesting to see the crash report on Mantell's
aircraft. I suspect though that it would not be as thorough as
its present day counterpart. BTW-we were impressed with the
treatment of the Shag Harbour Incident though the special
effects were unimpressive. However they spent much of their
limited budget on the actual search of the bottom and the use of
hi-tech equipment to do so. But for the most part they stayed
factual with little embellishment.


Best,

Don








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   Jun > Jun 19

               Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:19:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:54:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Lehmberg


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >To All:

 >Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >wondered why they don't hear from abductees more often. I
 >thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >in which I received them.


<snip>

 >---------------

 >I can relate to and understand everything the people above have
 >stated. I think all abductees can. We have all been in similar
 >situations and have felt all of these emotions at one time or
 >another.

 >The main reason I stopped posting was because of the way certain
 >people were behaving on the List. It seemed to me that things
 >were being written about the personal life of an abductee that
 >were completely unacceptable.

 >The rule I live by is not to ever divulge information about
 >another abductee or their experiences unless I have their
 >express written permission to do so.

 >The things that were written about one abductee in particular
 >crossed the line. The fact that it came from a fellow abductee
 >was one of the most distasteful things I have ever read on the
 >UFO UpDates List. As Michelle stated above, abductees experience
 >enough isolation and ridicule from the general public
 >[especially the debunkers] - to see this type of behavior coming
 >from one of our own is very sad and it is completely unacceptable.


I may resemble some of the above. I may resemble _all_ of the
above. I've been challenging, contrary, contentious and
quarrelsome, forgetting that I have always been (or tried to be)
consistent and conscientious in a manner that would soften those
things. I'm perhaps overly passionate about the subject because
I see it as the root cause of many, if not all, of our social,
cultural, and philosophical ills.

UFOs are perhaps too important a subject to be left to a handful
of men (and _too_ few women), whatever their qualification or
level of professionalism (in a manner similar to war being too
important an enterprise to be left to the general officers who
officiate it). This explains my tolerant attitude regarding who
or what might have some validity or even a shred of the truth...
whatever _that_ is. Unable to depend on my community to provide
a _quality_ mainstream, I've had to try to determine it for
myself.

If I have been corrosively offensive to our very tenuous and
volatile abduction (or ufological) community (outside of the
officious authoritarian, demanding strict adherence to an
unsatisfactory, inadequate, and demonstrably unsuccessful
"party-line"), well -- I would count it among one of my more
deeply felt regrets.

My only defense is that I am writing my conscience, sense a
contribution to something truly important that I can make
(consciousness raising if nothing else), and that I focus my
arguments more tightly on the ideas proposed than on the
individual proposing them, forgetting that individuals, of
needs, must pay freight for their expressions in a _real_ world.
No one has told me to "shut [my] pie hole" much less provided me
with some good rational why I should, banned me from, perhaps,
too prolific participation, or otherwise moderated me in any
way...

Some may argue that that is symptomatic of what the "problem"
is, but I can attest to the fact that Errol Bruce-Knapp has not
taken sides, in the larger sense, on any argument in the forum,
and he has only ever conducted himself in a manner that befits
his role as a facilitator for all useful positions. Look up the
word "moderator" in your Funk and Wagnall's and there is very
likely a little picture of 'Errol' right _there_. Posting the
very highly critical expression I'm responding to here is just
the latest example of the egalitarian attitude that Knapp
portays and typifies. It just doesn't get any better than this
List, ladies and gentlebunkies...

I humbly submit that I would be listening closely to PUBLIC (and
private) expressions (on _this_ forum) regarding the quality of
_my_ contribution to this 'thing' that has captured our
interest, and I suggest that _others_, those evaluated as
especially troublesome by the community (?), would benefit in a
similar manner. If _my_ critic shares even uncomfortable
information with me in a non-punitive, intelligent manner,
devoid of insults and hidden axes to grind... I am _all_
attention. I'm likely to learn something at the minimum, and at
the maximum I will be efficaciously changed. I only ask that you
tell me any 'good', along with the enevitable 'bad' if you do...
this goes for everyone -- regarding anyone.

I know one thing. It is our _co-operation_ that is going to get
to the bottom of this thing, not fractious in-fighting and
obligatory back-biting. We'd be better served to hang together
when we can, if only to preclude the despairing alternative
which is, of course, hanging separately. I've got my ears open,
along with my eyes, so I'm also open to quality expressions
regarding the subject of Ms. Wilson's considered post. We all
could be.

Read on.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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               Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:55:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Meiners


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post


To All Abductees on the List:

I noticed that all responses came from women abductees and I
know that there are many men lurkers who are abductees also;
but, they don't post here also and for the same reasons.

What is "evidence" to the abductee is "suspicious" to all others
because there is nothing solid that someone can put them hands
on; but, such experiences that abductees have, and in such
volumes as is presented here and other places, would be
overwhelming testimony; and probably would put someone in the
gas chamber, just isn't acceptable to anyone else but fellow
abductees.  Who wants to be ridiculed? Not me.  Very
understandable.

Jean M.






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                          Filer's Files #25 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:58:39 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #25-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 19, 2002,  Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

THE UNIVERSE HAS 100 KNOWN PLANETS AND IS FULL OF LIFE.

UFO SIGHTINGS:  New Jersey daylight disk, Delaware three
sightings, Pennsylvania lights, Virginia cup, West Virginia
photo, Tennessee sphere, Illinois circles, Michigan flying
triangle, Wisconsin cigar, Texas daylight disk, Washington
triangle, Canada lights, Argentina mutilations reach 50, UK
Disclosure Project, Sri Lanka aliens sighted, and Australia
cigar.

ASTRONOMERS FIND THIRTEEN NEW PLANETS

Astronomers have found a large planetary system about 51 light
years away with at least one planet whose orbit resembles that
of Jupiter.  The newly discovered planet is one of three planets
circling a star, called 55 Cancri.  Geoffrey Marcy of the
University of California, Berkeley says, "They have found a
planet about five times the size of Jupiter circling a sun-like
star and this is the first time we've found a family of planets
that has similarities to our own solar system."  The new planet
circles 55 Cancri at a distance of 5.5 Astronomical units, or
almost the same as the orbit of Jupiter.  An AU is the distance
between the Earth and the sun, about 93 million miles.  The two
other planets around 55 Cancri are also Jupiter sized, but they
orbit at about 9 million miles and about 23 million miles from
their sun.  Jupiter's position in our solar system helps protect
Earth from major meteor bombardment and is key to life on our
planet, making it more likely that life exists in the 55 Cancri
solar system.  Geoffrey Marcy also announced astronomers had
found 13 new planets orbiting distant stars, bringing to 91 the
total number of known extrasolar planets and counting.

NEW JERSEY DAYLIGHT DISK SIGHTED

SOMERSET -- On June 17, 2002, a disk was sighted at 10:00 AM
moving in a straight line over Somerset.  The witness states, "I
was stopped at a red light on Howe Lane and happened to look up
and saw a bright silver disk moving across the sky rather slowly
that suddenly disappeared when a jet plane came into view.  What
I saw previously bore no resemblance to a plane from any angle.
What struck me the most was how the disk was there and then
poof, gone.  The disk moved slower than any planes that are
normally in the area, but it was too far away and too bright to
see any details even though I was wearing Polaroid Sunglasses.
The surface was reflective and about the size of a penny held at
arm's length.  Thanks to MUFON HQ and Bruce Cornet.

DELAWARE THREE SIGHTINGS OF BRIGHT WHITE FLYING OBJECTS

SLAUGHTER BEACH -- At 12:30 AM, two bright lights traveling at
high speeds were sighted by four witnesses over the Delaware Bay
on June 1, 2002.  The lights were moving at the speed of a
shooting star.  Then to our surprise these bright lights zipped
upward in a diagonal motion and then back down towards the Bay
again.  These lights were sighted off and on over the next half
hour.  The witness said, "I have seen plenty of airline traffic
over the past 25 years and can definitely tell you that this is
unlike anything I've ever witnessed."

FRANKFORD -- The father of a 15 year old girl reports that on
Saturday night, June 1, 2002, " At 2:45 AM, my daughter woke us
up yelling and screaming that a bright light lit up her
bedroom!"  "We ran into her room and I sat on her bed comforting
her, and observed a very bright white light at the back of our
property in the woods."  We watched for about ten minutes as the
four inch light moved around the woods.  Father stated, "We saw
a flashing light that flew to the right and up past our
neighbors house."  We then went outside and the light showed up
again on our left flashing and moved to the right and seemed to
get smaller.  Sometimes it went into the air, other times it
flew past the trees out of sight.  "The next around 10:00 PM, my
daughter saw the light again, but did not wake us up."  Our
neighbors have seen this also.  An elementary school is on the
other side of the woods.

NEWPORT -- Later on Saturday morning at 9:50 AM, June 1, 2002,
the witness and his partner were walking their dog and spotted a
slow moving large teardrop shaped object overhead.  The very
reflective object was observed flying very high.  The object was
shaped like a balloon or parachute in and appeared to be
climbing in the sunny and clear sky.  The witnesses took a photo
of the object. Thanks to Peter Davenport at the National UFO
Reporting Center, http://www.ufocenter.com.

PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.
At 10:00 PM, the witnesses noticed that lights or stars were
moving around the sky past a tall lookout tower. "The object
appeared to be a star moving at first in a straight line for
several inches (if you held a 12" ruler at arm's length) that
then would stop, then accelerate foreword three times in short
bursts.  They then made a zigzag pattern at incredible speeds."
He said, "My girlfriend also saw it, but did not want to believe
that it might be a UFO.  I am an electrician from Pittsburgh,
and yes both of us were sober.  Thanks to Peter Davenport at the
National UFO Reporting Center, http://www.ufocenter.com.

VIRGINIA PASTOR OBSERVES SILVER UFO

COVINGTON -- A Baptist Pastor while traveling with his family on
Highway 64, observed a silver aluminum object on June 8, 2002,
flying above the mountains.  The object was flying up and across
at 100 feet above the mountains.  The Pastor says, "When I first
noticed the object it was in the shape of a box and about the
size of a small private plane."  "I tried to show it to my
family and I was pointing where to look.  Taking my eyes off of
it for a moment, it changed to a round bottom cup shape without
the handle (the round section being at the top).  The sighting
lasted about 30 seconds.  The craft was not in a hurry really
but seemed to be just cruising around.  I don't know how it
disappeared.  I lost sight of it trying to point it out to my
family after looking away for just a second.  I am a Baptist
Pastor and do not believe in little alien dudes with buggy eyes.
However I do know that what I saw was not anything I have ever
seen in my 42 years on this planet.  I am amazed at my close
encounter!  Thanks to Peter Davenport at the National UFO
Reporting Center, http://www.ufocenter.com.

WEST VIRGINIA PHOTOGRAPH OF UFO

MONONGAHELA NATIONAL FOREST -- Stephen J. Shaluta wrote: "I am
at best a skeptic about UFO's, but I do have a photograph of
something I cannot explain."  "I am a professional photographer
and on Friday, June 7, 2002, I was shooting a photo assignment
with models in the Bear Rocks area in the Potomac Highlands.
There were eight persons present and to my knowledge no one saw
anything unusual.  I personally did not see anything until I
began editing the images on my computer.  I had nearly 400
images to edit and often clean dust spots from the sky using my
photo editing program.  While enlarging one image to check for
dust spots I noticed an unusual object that looks like a round
gold sphere.  I use a Nikon d1x camera that tells me a variety
of information: such as exact time, shutter speeds, f-stops,
etc. and this information is stored within the image file.  I
also bracket my exposures and have the images taken before and
after the "UFO" image.  The "UFO" image was taken at 5:27:18 PM,
and I shot images twelve seconds earlier and four seconds later,
but the object only appears on the "UFO" image.  The image
appears as a yellow gold dome shaped object.  Thanks to Stephen
J. Shaluta, Jr.

PETERSBURG -- Jim Speiser writes, "A friend of mine has just
relayed a report from his sister involving a curious aerial
phenomenon she observed, she and her family of four were
visiting a trailer they own on a mountain top on June 14, 2002."
"That night the trailer was lit up by several green-glowing orbs
that came from overhead, some of which came right up to the
windows of the trailer."  The phenomenon lasted until 4:00 AM,
when they finally left.  No one that they talked to the next day
had observed anything.  Does this correlate with anything else
known in that area?  Thanks to jimspeiser@yahoo.com and John
Schussler Director of MUFON schuessler@mho.net.

TENNESSEE SPHERE

OLD HICKORY -- A student saw a spherical shaped object with
orange and red lights on June 3, 2002.  The student reports,
"None of the lights blinked and the craft made no noise as it
traveled south at high speed at 10:00 PM.  This comes during a
period of high frequency of visible satellites, at least that is
what I'm assuming they were.  Some of the "satellites" increase
in brightness until they rival Venus or Jupiter, then decrease
in brightness until they can no longer be seen.  I have also
seen a flying triangle, and a diamond shaped aircraft near my
house.  There have also been lots of helicopters lately.  Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com.

ILLINOIS FOUR BRIGHT CIRCLES

EVANSTON -- The witness on June 2, 2002, saw four bright circles
in the sky moving around.  The four circles broke off and then
all joined back at 10:30 PM.  The four circling lights went
around in one rotation, and then went back to one big circle.
The lights then broke off again into four little ones.  It has
been doing that for some time.  The same thing happened again
and again. The four lights went around once and then came back
as a whole then broke off again.  It kept doing that for a long
time.  What did I see?  Peter Davenport NUFORC Note: "We suspect
the witness may have been looking at advertising lights on a
blimp or aircraft."

MICHIGAN RED FLYING TRIANGLE WITH SPARKS

BRIDGMAN -- Five friends were sitting around the fire on June 1,
2002, thirty minutes after midnight talking and looking for
shooting stars.  One witness states, "Out of the corner of my
eye in the southern sky, I saw a slow moving light that was a
little bigger than a shooting star that changed color from red
to orange to white in a matter of seconds."  It looked as though
it was enflamed, and it shot something out that looked like a
spark."  My friend shouted out obscenities in disbelief when he
saw it go under a cloud and shoot out sparks two more times at
about a half second apart.  Then it abruptly slowed down, then
sped up and suddenly disappeared.  The object left a small
flaming tail but was too low in my opinion to be space junk.
The witness stated, "It was an almost perfect flying triangle
with rounded edges heading southeast that lasted a few seconds.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter.com.

WISCONSIN TUBULAR SHAPE AND GLINTING OBJECT

MADISON -- The witness states, "I saw a strange tubular shaped
object going south for a moment on June 4, 2002, as I was
distracted by another glinting object traveling north.  The
glinting object seemed to change direction unlike a plane or a
helicopter and entered a cloud but continued to glint, when I
noticed the tubular shape coming from the north.  When I looked
back a couple of seconds later, they both had disappeared.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter.com.

MINNESOTA LIGHT

DULUTH -- On June 17, 2002, at 1:30 AM, the witness reports
seeing a blinking white light, that did not stay long, The
witness states, "It was round and slightly larger than the North
Star and was seen in the sky above Morgan Park in Duluth for
about five minutes."  Thanks to genissis@webtv.net

TEXAS DAYLIGHT DISKS

CORPUS CHRISTI -- A woman reports, "My husband was driving our
fishing boat south under the Island Freeway Bridge on June 2,
2002, and I looked west and saw a swarm of white birds with two
white disk shaped objects flying behind them.  At 2:30 PM, the
disks stayed in formation side by side for the longest time.
They seemed to be barely moving.  This was an exceptionally
clear Sunday with white clouds in the back ground.  The two
disks never drifted up or down.  They approached a cloud, in
formation and instead of going through it, they took a 45 degree
turn around it.  Then I saw one of the unidentified craft go
through the middle of the cloud for a second.  I did notice that
they seemed to have stopped for the moment.  Then slowly it flew
behind the cloud and came out the other side.  Once again the
disks were flying side by side, in perfect order.  They flew in
perfect formation and turned exactly to the right at a sharp
angle at the same time.

I kept trying to show my husband what I was seeing and he also
saw these objects.  After they came out the other side of the
cloud they just continued going away from us until they were out
of sight.  There was no sound and no smoke like jets would
leave.  We observed them for ten minutes or so and then they
were gone.  I always wear polarized sunglasses and the sun was
behind me and not in my eyes.   Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director National Reporting Center www.ufocenter.com .com

COLORADO DAYLIGHT DISK

LITTLETON -- The weather changed today on June 3, 2002, from
unseasonably hot to cool and windy as the front moved in and
storm clouds appeared.  An office worker reports, "As I looked
out my office window, I noticed a black, circular shape in the
sky that remained stationary for 20 or more seconds at 3:03 PM."
He states, "My first impression was that the object might be a
rather large balloon within a half mile of my position, but
oddly it remained stationary in the wind."  "I put my caller on
hold and looked more closely.  After remaining stationary for
about 30 seconds, it began to move slightly, in almost a
fluttering way or jagged way, suddenly dipping to the left and
downward, and changing shape from circular to more flat.  Then
it went up again and a little to the right, again becoming more
circular, but also changing shape so that it was periodically
circular and then more ovoid. It headed back to the left and
would remain somewhat stationary and then dip further down.  As
it got lower, I could see that there was a lighter color on top,
almost like the reflection of a dome. There was very little
sunlight due to the storm clouds.  With that extra shading, the
object looked more saucer-shaped.  It dipped down until it
disappeared behind the shopping mall next to my office, about a
half-mile from me.  It was smaller than a helicopter, but much
larger than a bird.  It definitely appeared to be under
intelligent control under windy conditions, and the changing
shape was also quite dramatic. " Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director of NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA TRIANGLE SATELLITES

SAN DIEGO -- Jan Kregers writes, "After reading the account of
the triangular lights/satellites sighting in the Stanislaus
National Forest in Filer's Files #24," I figured I'd better
write to you as I also had a sighting of triangular lights that
same night.  I use a set of Swarovski Habicht SL binoculars sky
watching a couple hours almost every night. On the night of May
29, at about 10:30 PM, I saw three dim star like lights slowly
appear near Seginus (Gamma Bootes) and move southeast.  They
were a dark orangey-red, and looked very much like the glow of
an 'idling' cigarette ember.  The lights were arranged in an
isosceles triangle separated by the size of the first joint of
my thumb held at arm's length.  When the lead light was just
passing north of Izar, it dimmed and went out like a dimmer
switch.  At that point, I thought, 'Okay, if these are
satellites, and they are passing into the earth's shadow, then
the next light to go out should be the left-hand trailing light'
(as it was further east than the right-hand one).  As I was
thinking this, the right-hand light dimmed and then went out
completely, leaving only the left-hand trailing light visible.
It continued to be visible for a few seconds more, and traveled
further east before it too dimmed and went out.  These are
supposed to be ocean-surveying Navy spy satellites, and the guy
who tracks them said that, 'they always appear as white/bright
star like without color.'  The lights I saw were definitely
orangey-red in color.  They were arranged in an isosceles-
triangle formation as were the lights that your Filer's #24
informant saw, but they were traveling northwest to southeast,
not north to south.  Also, it sounds like your informant and I
were observing our triangle lights at about the same time, so I
am thinking they may not have been the same thing.

I've had other sightings of star like lights that change color
(from dim orange-red to bright blue-white and back) and move too
oddly to be conventional aircraft.  On four nights In July 2001,
I sighted multiple 'dots' flying south through the constellation
Cygnus and weaving rapidly back and forth across each others'
flight paths as if they were playing tag.  They would zigzag and
make right-angle turns with some heading east and some west.
Lastly, I wanted to let you know that I enjoyed hearing you
speak at the Disclosure Press Conference last year the
Disclosure Project came to San Diego last August I worked as a
volunteer at the event.  Thanks to Jan Kregers

WASHINGTON SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

BREMERTON -- The witness was sitting in his hot tub shortly
before 1:00 AM, on June 12, 2002, when a lighted triangle shaped
object raced across the sky leaving no trail.  The witness
reports, I noticed an object flying across the sky above me that
appeared to have red and green lights in a triangle shape that
was moving at a fast rate of speed.  The craft appeared to be
very high in sky but was still large but no sound was heard.  No
trail was left either.  Eventually, it just flew out of my sight
but not after going across the sky for 5-7 seconds. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com.

CANADA BRIGHT LIGHTS

LONGEUIL (ST-HUBERT), QUEBEC -- The witness and his wife were
returning home on June 1, 2002, just before 10:00 PM and while
exiting the freeway they noticed many aircraft flying very low
with bright searchlights on.  I never saw that much activity,
even less at night.  Off the freeway I noticed two bright lights
standing still at a medium altitude, much too low to be stars or
planets, and they had no the flashing lights like normal
aircraft.  We drove closer to the lights, and it was very
bizarre there were planes and helicopters flying very low
everywhere around the lights.  We watched for two hours then the
lights disappeared, the other planes flew away not long after.
Despite numerous witnesses including police it was not reported
in the media.  Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter.com.

SRI LANKA UFO AND ALIENS SIGHTED

POLONNARUWA -- The national television channel, Sri Lanka
Rupavahini Corporation reported on it's 8:00 PM, news on both
June 9, and 10th, that there have been UFO sightings in the city
of Polonnaruwa in first week of June 2002. The TV channel showed
a video footage of the spacecraft.  Several aliens too have been
sighted, who had apparently run away when seen by civilians.
These sightings have been reported on several days.  All the
above information was reported by the national television
channel, Sri Lanka Rupavahini Corporation, (website:--
www.rupavahini.lk)

AUSTRALIA CIGAR FLIES NEXT TO AIRLINER

SYDNEY -- At 4:30 PM, the witness was waiting for a bus in a
residential area on June 4, 2002, when he noticed a strange
looking object floating above to the north.  He states, "There
was a longish object like a cigar or tube, white in color, with
red lights glowing around it, I could clearly see the red
lights."  "At this moment a passenger plane was climbing and
flew past and I made some comparisons between the two aircraft,
he added.  I could clearly see the wings, tail, the marks and
even the portholes on the airliner. "I could compare them and
saw they were about the same size and about the same attitude,
but the cigar had no wings, no tail and no specific
characteristics to tell me that this was something I have seen
before."  I thought that if it was UFO, the people in the
passenger plane must have seen it in the brilliant cloudless
sky.  However, there were no newspaper reports.  So, I called
New South Wales UFO Investigation Center phone 02-94844680.

ARGENTINA CATTLE MUTILATIONS REACH 50 - RIVERA AND PRINGLES --
The mutilation in the town of Rivera is the first one to involve
a horse.  The animal had died from natural causes and days
later, the carcass showed signs of strange incisions.
Meanwhile, the first cattle mutilation in Coronel Pringles was
reported involving a 220 kg. steer.  Veterinarian Marcelo Erro
claims he has never seen anything like it.  The horse was
inspected by veterinarian Jorge Robles, who also analyzed the
dead cow found in Arano.  The horse is missing its tongue, an
eye, an ear and its genitals."  Robles recalled the autopsy he
performed on the cow he found at Arano, that when I reached the
pelvic cavity, I found a hole resembling a tunnel, and I
couldn't find the uterus or the ovaries.  They also took its
eye, tongue, and ear, and a patch of skin bordering the lips.
The incisions on the horse and cow are identical.  The
veterinarian said this is not classic surgery. "The wounds are
not burned, and while my understanding of laser surgery is
scant, I found that there is no laser that can cut hide in that
way."  "There is no sign that the cutting element has touched
anything other than hide," he concluded.  The vet dismissed the
possibility that a wild animal could make those incisions.  "The
bird or animal that attacks a carcass isn't after the eye, the
ear or the mammary glands.  They are carnivores and feed on
flesh.  In this case, 80% of what's missing is hide.  The
animals are found in remote spots and all of the carcasses have
their heads toward the east and their tails toward the west.
What happened cannot be fit within the framework of medical
science," he added.  Diario "La Nueva Provincia" Thanks to Scott
Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Translation (C) 2002.
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.

UNITED KINGDOM DISCLOSURE PROJECT

Hamish Mackenzie of the Sunday Express writes on June 16, 2002,
"On a raised platform beneath the galleried ceiling of the
prestigious National Press Club in Washington, DC, a group of
men and women, all experts in their chosen field, waited
patiently as the large hall filled with more than 150
journalists from newspapers and TV stations all around the
world."  For almost two hours, one by one, more than 20
"eyewitnesses" -- nuclear missile silo commanders and employees
of large corporations -- described their experiences to the
assembled press.  Some spoke of inexplicable encounters with
unidentified lights and objects in the air, others of the
crashes of strange craft of "unaccountable, and illegal
projects."  Yet others even claimed to be involved with the
"back-engineering of advanced technology."  Many expressed
frustration at their failure to be taken seriously.  All
referred to a World-Wide conspiracy to keep the truth from
governments and public alike. As each individual spoke there was
hushed attention, as each sat down applause filled the room. At
one point a cameraman for a US TV station  was heard to say:
"Bloody hell, this is amazing - bloody hell."  and yet, since
that day in May 2001, the silence has been deafening.

Last year, the Sunday Express was the first newspaper to publish
an article on the Disclosure Project, an US-Based UFO group
whose stated aim is to press the US Congress for an open
hearing.  The group's founder, DR Steven Greer, claims he is
continuing to gather "deep-insider witnesses" who, if released
from their security oaths, would tell Congress what they know
about an alleged cover-up of the existence of UFOs and
extraterrestrials as well as the possession of their advanced
life-changing technology.  But one year on, the Project seems
nowhere nearer achieving its goal, despite positive feedback
from US Senators and overwhelming interest from the public via
their website.  Dr. Greer is now concentrating on a grassroots
effort to spread the word via a global network of
representatives.  "This is the best chance we have had in 50
years to find out what is really going on," say David Williams,
one of the Disclosure Projects UK representatives.  Now an IT
director in the finance industry, he is a former crypto-analyst
in the Royal Signals, once based in Whitehall.  "While I was
there I had Top Secret clearance, and the continuous flow of UFO
reports that crossed my desk intrigued me," he says. "They came
from everywhere, and I forwarded them on to various MoD and
Government departments.  "I don't know what happened to them
after they left me.  I have been trying to find out ever since,
and after the 2001 press conference I decided to get involved
with the Disclosure Project.

It only needs the public to realize that one of the witnesses,
someone like John Callahan is telling the truth for the whole
thing to be blown wide open."  John Callahan, a former senior
investigator with the Accidents and Investigations Branch of the
US Federal Aviation Authority, is an imposing presence.  His
story, like the man, is hard to dismiss.  At the press
conference, he recalled how, on November 18, 1986, the pilots of
Japan Airlines Flight 1628, flying over Alaska, reported they
were seeing "a huge ball with lights running around it ... four
times as big as a 747."  The sighting was significant because
the object was simultaneously being recorded on ground-based
radar at Anchorage Air Traffic Control. The flight crew and
ground radar operators watched as the UFO performed aerobatics
and flew at speeds beyond the capability of any known aircraft.
At one point the captain expressed concern at the effects the
object appeared to be having on his instruments.  After more
than half an hour, the "strange craft" disappeared and the 747
landed safely.  The following day Mr. Callahan attended a
hurriedly convened meeting at the request of Admiral Engen, then
Administrator of the Federal Aviation Authority.  This meeting
was attended by all of those directly involved and claimed Mr.
Callahan, and three anonymous CIA men. He says these men
confiscated all the audio, radar recordings printouts and
documents associated with the previous day's events and "told us
this had never happened and we had never had this meeting." They
never asked anyone if we had copies, so I never told them I
did."  There was a flurry of clicking cameras as Mr. Callahan
held up numerous documents and invited the audience to inspect
them later.  But many who were at the press conference were
bemused at the subsequent lack of publicity for the event.  SNIP

"To get a Congressional hearing one of three things will have to
happen, "The media will have to call for it, or the public need
to be heard asking for it, or there has to be a massive,
undeniable UFO event."  What is clear is that a large number of
individuals have come forward and made statements whose
implications, if true, are profound!  If the witnesses are who
they say they are -- and are found to be lying -- then we should
be very concerned about the type of individuals who fly our
planes, control air traffic, man the missile silos and protect
our communities.  If on the other hand, the witnesses are
telling the truth then -- no matter how extraordinary -- this is
a serious issue.  "If we believe them,' says David Williams,
"Then we have to accept that we are not alone. Someone is
covering up and we should want to know why.  "We may have been
deceived by some of our witnesses, but not by all of them," he
continues. "There are too many people who have seen something
they can't explain. Those trying to keep the secrets rely upon
most of us being too busy with our lives to be bothered. But
more and more people are getting interested, and one day there
will be enough to demand that governments tell us what they
know." Thanks to David Williams at
http://www.disclosureproject.org

MUFON 2002 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM

On July, 5-7, 2002, the 33rd annual MUFON conference will be
held at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Rochester, New York.  Come
hear the top speakers from the US, Canada, and England on UFOs
and abductions. The Platinum Package is priced at $150.00 per
person Please contact Jim Bouck  nitesiter@yahoo.com or  Bob
Long - alienchasr@aol.com or the MUFON Website.

CONFUSED ABOUT ROSWELL?

By far the best explanation of the "Holy Grail of Ufology" is in
researcher Robert Durant's new video/DVD.  Much of the material
from this exciting and authoritative presentation has never
appeared in books or on TV. You will meet the central military
officers and witnesses, examine the Air Force explanation for
the Roswell Incident, and hear the pros and cons of the case.
When you are through, you will know why Durant titled his video
"Roswell? Yes!"  and, why I agree.  Available from MVP-F, P.O.
Box 1292, Kearny, NJ 07032, $15.00 + $4.00 S/H, or call (201)
991-8227. Specify VHS or DVD.  Major credit cards accepted. Or,
visit my online UFO Store http://.www.filersfiles.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL.  A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com.  Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post the complete files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue that the item appeared.  These reports
and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.
Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential.  CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

MAIL PROBLEMS: Due to various server problems, we are working on
a new system to insure smooth delivery of Filer's Files to your
mail box.  If you get more than one copy, please disregard.
With hundreds of new subscribers from all over the world it is
difficult to keep up.

Regards,

George Filer











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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 19

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:15:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 23:26:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:28:17 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention


Dick Hall? _The_ Dick Hall? Now I _know I've come to the right
place. We are not worthy!

Good to see you again, Dick.

==JJS==







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   Jun > Jun 20

                         Re: Scoop Marks? - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:01:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Scoop Marks? - Meiners


 >From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:28:20 -0500
 >Subject: Scoop Marks?

 >Listers,

 >My wife recently healed from a prolonged bout with a terrible
 >skin rash that covered her face, arms and legs. There were many
 >treatments over the course of at least one year. Among many
 >other treatments, she finally ended up getting injections of
 >steroids and antibiotics into each infected area.

 >About a week later, and as she said, "over night", she developed
 >a dime-size scoop mark, about 1/4 inch deep, on her left forearm.
 >This dimple literally appeared in less than 48 hours.
<snip>

Bill and List:

I, too, developed a "scoop mark" after an encounter.
Mine is on my leg; but mine showed first as an
"injury" that wouldn't heal.  It is triangular in
shape and about 1/2 inch.  I am not diabetic, I was
checked.  But it took several weeks to heal and the
doctors didn't know why.  But, I most definitely have
the "scoop" and very strong memories of where it came
from.

Jean M.








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   Jun > Jun 20

                           Re: Mantell - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:05:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Hamilton


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:56:39 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>First off, was the P-51 pilot actually in formation with
 >>>>Mantell? Was he actually at Godman field?

 >>>I think he was on the ground at Godman field, not in formation,
 >>>however a further update indicates that this pilot does not
 >>>believe in UFOs at all so could not conceive of Mantell chasing
 >>>anything other than a balloon.

 >>Hi Bill,

 >>Mantell wasn't at Godman field, Fort Knox. They were about to
 >>fly past it, to the east of Godman, when they got the call from
 >>Godman tower, on orders from Colonel Hix the base commander, to
 >>turn left and to the southwest and try and intercept the object.

<snip>

Don,

Clarification.

I know the Mantell case and know he was about to fly by. The
pilot on the ground I referred to was not Mantell, but
supposedly a witness. It turns out this witness did not believe
in UFOs and was certain later that Mantell was chasing a balloon
that looked disk-like.

I am still not convinced that Mantell was 'closing' on a
balloon.


Bill H








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   Jun > Jun 20

                  Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley

From: Matt Hurley <m.hurley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:29:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:06:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley



Hi All,

Some of you may not be aware that this 1942 LA photo was
published in Tim Godd's 1987 book Above Top Secret


Regards

Matt

Historical Artwork and UFOs by Matthew Hurley

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.hurley








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                              NY Times Article

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:44:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:08:35 -0400
Subject: NY Times Article



Hi All,

The New York Times [The Missing Times?] published this article in
today's paper in the Arts section about Paul Kurtz, Chairman of
CSICOP and publisher of the Skeptical Inquirer.

Note the section about UFOlogy as almost a religion.

Where's the rebuttle?

Go to:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?todaysheadlines

Watch for the wrapped URL

Don Ledger








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                 Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:16:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:11:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Lehmberg


 >From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)

 >No doubt many on the UpDates List have already seen this article
 >from today's NY Times. But many others may not have. In any
 >case, I thought it would be useful to pass it along.

 >Mike Briggs

 >mbriggs@ku.edu

 >-----

 >Source: The New York Times

=
 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?ex=3D1025495=
973&ei=3D1&en=3D8fc63718a4160f01

 >A Vigorous Skeptic of Everything but Fact

 >June 19, 2002
 >By DINITIA SMITH

 >These are some of the things that Paul Kurtz, chairman of
 >the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
 >the Paranormal and publisher of the magazine Skeptical
 >Inquirer, does not believe in: parapsychology, holistic
 >cures for animal illnesses, the universal effectiveness of
 >chiropractic, extraterrestrial beings, alternative
 >medicine, Bigfoot and organized religion.

<snip>

I remain, largely, unimpressed. Mr. Kurtz is a brilliant
example, like B.F. Skinner, of how one can be so terribly,
terribly right, and at the same time be so woefully, regrettably
wrong. Dr. Skinner, the classic psychiatric behaviorist (and
probably a _favorite_ of Kurtz, I'd wager), was right that human
beings could be conditioned to do anything a 'conditioner' might
desire, but dreadfully wrong regarding whether human beings
_should_ be conditioned at all (at _least_ without informed
consent). Behaviorist doctrine means patent disrespect for an
individual.

As fine a man as Kurtz 'may' be, he's still a great example of
how much the world is improved by most funerals. His "Committee
for the Silly and Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons" is
evidence enough. His 'pawl' works in reverse.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                          Secrecy News -- 06/19/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:35:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:14:07 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/19/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 55
June 19, 2002


**      SECRECY AND BIOTECHNOLOGY
**      HOMELAND SECURITY BILL PROPOSED
**      CODE TALKERS HONORED


SECRECY AND BIOTECHNOLOGY

Questions of whether and how to limit publication of scientific
research that might lend itself to malicious purposes continue
to roil the waters in the post-September 11 security
environment.

New techniques to genetically engineer viruses so as to
dramatically increase their lethality are already in hand. At
what point, if any, should restrictions on such developments be
imposed? What are the responsibilities of government, and of
scientists themselves?

These are not altogether new issues. Francis Bacon broached the
matter in his utopian essay "The New Atlantis" (paragraph 87),
published in 1626:

"And this we do also: we have consultations, which of the
inventions and experiences which we have discovered shall be
published, and which not; and take all an oath of secrecy for
the concealing of those which we think fit to keep secret;
though some of those we do reveal sometime to the State, and
some not." See:

http://www.constitution.org/bacon/new_atlantis.htm

But the problem assumes greater salience today as the
consequences of potential abuses increase with advances in
technology, especially in the life sciences.

Aspects of the current debate are reported this week in "Speak
No Evil: Should biologists publish work that could be misused?"
by Nell Boyce in the June 24 issue of U.S. News and World
Report:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/020624/misc/24bioterror.htm

See also "Biotech Loses Its Innocence" by Eric Cohen in the June 24
Weekly Standard:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/369zqx
vp.asp

Related issues are also addressed in "Designer Bugs" by Jon
Cohen in the July/August 2002 Atlantic Monthly (not online).

The National Academy of Sciences ad hoc Committee on Research
Standards and Practices to Prevent the Destructive Application
of Biotechnology will hold its second meeting in Washington on
June 24-25.


HOMELAND SECURITY BILL PROPOSED

The Bush Administration yesterday sent to Congress draft
legislation to establish a new Department of Homeland Security.

The proposed new Department is described in the President's June
18 message to Congress:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/06/gwb061802.html

The text of the bill itself is here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/06/hls-bill.html

It wouldn't be a Bush Administration initiative if it didn't
include new restrictions on public access to official
information. And sure enough, section 204 of the draft bill
would create a new exemption from the Freedom of Information Act
for "information provided voluntarily by non-Federal entities or
individuals that relates to infrastructure vulnerabilities or
other vulnerabilities to terrorism and is or has been in the
possession of the Department."


CODE TALKERS HONORED

The House of Representatives passed legislation yesterday to
honor the Sioux "code talkers" who provided secure
communications in their language for American forces during
World War II. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/hr3250.html

The better known Navajo code talkers were similarly honored last
year. A detailed history of the Navajo code talkers was
published in the Winter 2001 issue of Prologue, the quarterly of
the National Archives and Records Administration. See:

http://www.archives.gov/media_desk/press_releases/nr02-64.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                 Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:01:33 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:16:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Hamilton


 >From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)

 >No doubt many on the UpDates List have already seen this article
 >from today's NY Times. But many others may not have. In any
 >case, I thought it would be useful to pass it along.

 >Mike Briggs

 >mbriggs@ku.edu

 >-----

 >Source: The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?ex=1025495973&ei=1
&en=8fc63718a4160f01

<snip>

Why worry about Mr. Kurtz. He is an old man and soon he may
communicate with us on the "Crossing Over" show with John Edward
and he can then have an opportunity to restate his position from
his new out-of-body vantage point!

BH







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                Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:13:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:18:12 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way - Ledger


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:51:33 +0000

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:48:38 +0200
 >>Subject: UFO in Lanka? Clarke Says No Way

 >>Source: The Times of India

 >>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=3D13242179

 >>Go the site for reader's comments!

 >>Stig

 >>UFO in Lanka? Clarke says no way

 >>FARAH MIHLAR AHAMED

<snip>

 >>"We need to discern enthralling science fiction from science
 >>fact," he added.

 >>According to Clarke, despite several investigations by NASA and
 >>the US Air Force, no credible evidence has been found anywhere
 >>in the world of aliens visiting the earth.

 >>Clarke also warned that people were spending far too much
 >>attention on investigating UFOs rather than studying NEOs or
 >>Near Earth Objects like asteroids and comets that could crash on
 >>earth and destroy life.

 >>Copyright =A9 2002 Times Internet Limited. All rights reserved.

 >Can anyone provide a verified address for Arthur C. Clarke in
 >Sri Lanka? I would like to send him a copy of 'The UFO Evidence,
 >Volume II', but it will cost me something and I don't want it to
 >vanish in the jungles of Asia without reaching him.


Hi Dick,

He's now going under the name of Don Ledger and his address is:

183 Hammonds Plains Road. #301
Bedford, Nova Scotia
B4A 4C9

By anonymous








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                 Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:26:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:20:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Speiser


 >From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)

 >No doubt many on the UpDates List have already seen this article
 >from today's NY Times. But many others may not have. In any
 >case, I thought it would be useful to pass it along.

 >Mike Briggs

 >mbriggs@ku.edu

 >-----

 >Source: The New York Times

 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?ex=1
 >025495973&ei=1&en=8fc63718a4160f01

 >A Vigorous Skeptic of Everything but Fact

 >June 19, 2002
 >By DINITIA SMITH

 >These are some of the things that Paul Kurtz, chairman of
 >the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
 >the Paranormal and publisher of the magazine Skeptical
 >Inquirer, does not believe in: parapsychology, holistic
 >cures for animal illnesses, the universal effectiveness of
 >chiropractic, extraterrestrial beings, alternative
 >medicine, Bigfoot and organized religion.


Some of you on this List may be surprised to learn that I
consider Prof. Kurtz to be one of the most brilliant and
admirable men of our times. While I abhor his stance on UFOs
(his CSICOP-hat), I greatly admire the work he has done in the
field of secular humanism (his CSH-hat).

I am a secular humanist myself, and actually helped start a
like-minded group here in Phoenix some years back, inspired by
Kurtz' books.  By the way, I think Budd Hopkins also describes
himself as a secular humanist.

So I catch heck from both sides - from the UFO believers for
admiring Kurtz, and from my fellow secular humanists, some of
whom consider it "sacreligious" to give any credence whatever to
UFOs.

Oh, well, ya can't please everyone!

==JJS==








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                          I Really Hate To Do This

From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:56:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:28:00 -0400
Subject: I Really Hate To Do This


Hello all:


I beg your indulgence and apologize for the lengthy
mess below.

Does anybody have a valid email address for one Clint
Stone formerly of MUFON Kentucky?

I scouted up two different email addresses for Stone,
and both of them bounced in sequence.

I am trying to pass along the message below, which
will hopefully explain it all.


Thanks in advance

- Larry Hatch


-------- Original Message --------

Subj: Undeliverable Mail
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 03:32:55 -0500
From: <postmaster@sysmatrix.net>
To: <larry@larryhatch.net>

Unknown user: brazel@webtv.net


Original message follows.

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:29:19 -0700
From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
  To: brazel@webtv.net
  CC: Francis Ridge <slk@evansville.net>
Subj: 17 years of hard work.


Dear Brazel:

Please pass this message along to Clint Stone. As you may see
below, his old @hotmail.com email address is no longer valid.

If I cannot get a response from Clint, I will have to echo this
message on the UFO email lists in hope of getting thru that way.

This is quite important, especially considering your invocation
to "Not copy files without permission from the Webmaster."


Thank you

- Larry Hatch

cc: Francis Ridge

- - - - - -


Subj: Undeliverable Mail
Date: 20 Jun 2002 02:07:42 -0500
From: <postmaster@larryhatch.net>
  To: <larry@larryhatch.net>

Unknown user: black_rain1999@hotmail.com
(Clint Stone)

Original message follows.

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 00:04:06 -0700
From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
To: black_rain1999@hotmail.com
Subj: 17 years hard work.


to Clint Stone ( Interlink Kentucky )


Dear Clint:

Regarding this web page of yours:

http://www.geocities.com/~interlink1/best/bdoc10.html

It took me 17 years of hard work, endless hours in the
library, and large sums for books and journals etc.,
to amass the 17,850+ cases in the *U* UFO Database.

I extracted 190 odd cases from my data as a personal favor to
Francis Ridge (only) for his nuclear sites UFO sightings project
(NCP). I presume that's where you took the data from. The format
and content is unmistakably mine, selection of cases is straight
from Francis' web page.

I see you present this data without any credit given whatsoever,
no mention of my name, database or website, not even the web
page you copied from.

Full data on the *U* UFO Database, plus UFO maps
and statistical screens are at this website:

http://www.larryhatch.net

I strongly suggest that you either give proper credit, with a
valid link to the URL above ( instead of implying this was your
"work in progress" ) .. or else just take the page down.

Please respond. If I don't hear from you, I will have to assume
your email address is invalid, and try to reach you with this
message via the various UFO email Lists.



Sincerely

- Larry Hatch

cc: Francis Ridge








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                            EW: Mars Face Morphed

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:59:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:31:59 -0400
Subject: EW: Mars Face Morphed



From: The Electric Warrior (Kurt Jonach)

--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Cydonut June 20, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
=BB CYDONUT: MARS FACE MORPHED
cover story summer 2002

artwork: Mars Face (Morphed)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewMarsFaceMorphedThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - In the introduction to his short story
'The Sentinel', the beloved sci-fi author, Arthur C. Clarke,
commented that the focus of the SETI debate has changed from
"Where's Everyone?" to the even more puzzling "Where Are Their
Artifacts?" The astronauts in Clarke's story, the basis for
'2001: A Space Odyssey', found an extraterrestrial artifact on
the Moon.

If otherworldly technological civilizations exist, then perhaps
they visited our own solar system. If the SETI search for
extraterrestrial radio signals is legitimate science, then why
not the search for extraterrestrial artifacts? Perhaps we'll
find some clue to their existence, some enigma for an
intelligent, space-faring species like ours to discover, as
depicted by the famous black monolith in Clarke's '2001'?

Some would argue that mankind has already found such an
artifact: the Face on Mars. First photographed in 1976, the
notorious Martian enigma has been captured in recent years using
modern digital imaging technology. The image herein is none of
those. It is a digital composite of three photos taken by
different NASA Mars missions.

Is there really an extraterrestrial artifact on the surface of
Mars? The answer to that depends on who you talk to.
Conventional science will assert that none of the recent photos
look particularly face-like. Advocates will say that, like
looking at newsprint with a magnifying glass, the resolution of
the recent images is too high, or that the lighting is wrong.

As a result of the morphing process that created this
photographic composite, some of the high resolution detail was
necessarily lost. This artist's conception shows what the Mars
Face might look like if photographed under the same lighting
conditions as the image that first captured our imaginations a
quarter century ago.

--------------------------------------------------
photo: Viking (1976)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewFace1976.jpg

The earliest photo of the Mars Face, described by NASA as a
trick of light and shadow, was a low resolution, high-contrast
black & white image captured by the Viking 1 orbiter. The
Martian landform became associated with paranormal pseudo-
science, when independent researchers noticed pyramid-shaped
mounds in the vicinity of Cydonia, and then imaginatively
theorized about ancient civilizations on Mars.

photo: Mars Global Surveyor (2001)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewFace2001.jpg

Is this photo too darned good? It certainly doesn't look very
face-like. The Mars Global Surveyor took this photograph in the
Spring of 2001, in response to a formal request by a Mars
activist group called the Formal Action Committee for Extra-
Terrestrial Studies (FACETS). SETI and conventional science
alike assert that the human like features on Mars are the result
of natural processes, and that like similar features on Earth,
the Mars Face can only be seen from a certain point of view, and
at the right time of day.

photo: Mars Odyssey (2002)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewFace2002.jpg

This is the most recent photograph of the Mars Face. Because of
the huge public interest in Cydonia, it was one of the first
targets photographed by Mars Odyssey, earlier this year. Groups
like the Society for Planetary SETI Research (SPSR), who
advocate looking for extraterrestrial artifacts, recognize that
investigation into extraordinary phenomenon are often considered
pseudo-science on the basis of subject matter, rather than
scientific method. Conventional science doesn't want to believe,
won't look at the facts, and that's not scientific.

photo Light & Shadow (Zoom-In)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewLightShadow.jpg

Why does this thing look so alien? One theory says that the
right side of the Face is a lion. The Martian monument is
thought to be half man, half lion, like an Earthly sphinx. This
zoomed-in view superimposes shadows from the Viking image, onto
a detailed crop from the 2001 MGS photo. The right side looks
like it might be collapsed. That's interesting, (if not
particularly lion-like.) But does it mean that somebody built a
humanoid face that later broke down? Maybe the Mars Face looks
weird because it isn't really a face.

--------------------------------------------------
GET THE WALLPAPER

Mars Face (Morphed)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewMarsFaceMorphed.jpg

Download a 600x600 version of the Mars Face morphed,
for your Desktop

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 20, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
Do you like this article? The URL address for this content is:

http://www.electricwarrior.com/cydonut/ewCydonut0005.htm

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website.
They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may
not be reproduced or used in any other context without
permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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                           News Items For 'Beyond'

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@email.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:51:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:33:56 -0400
Subject: News Items For 'Beyond'


Dear Colleague,

I am now in the process of preparing the news column for our
new, subscription only web site 'BEYOND'
(www.beyondpublications.com).

I'd therefore respectfully like to ask if you have any news
items on any of the topics that we cover (everything out of the
ordinary just about) then please forward it on to me at:
philipmantle@email.com or beyondmantle@aol.com

Such news items can cover just about anything from research to
new TV shows. The news column will be up-dated monthly but hot
items will be used when they are received.

Many thanks for your cooperation with this request and please
feel free to pass this message on to other colleagues, groups,
discussion groups etc.


Yours sincerely,


Philip Mantle
Editor
Beyond Publications

www.beyondpublications.com











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                             Re: Blimps - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:53:49 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:36:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Acres


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:11:39 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: Blimps

 ><snip>

 >Wasn't someone killed downrange somewhere due to spent triple-A?

Hi Don!:) Sorry for not answering your question! The reports are
extremely varied as Paul Novak noted! Some say 6 some 5, 3 and
1. Some say heart-attack, motor vehicle but only one article
directly says shrapnel.

Even the amount of shells fired is inconsistant. One piece I've
found that seems to be written by a Gunner is:

"Although the regiment shot 3,286 shells and the unit failed to
down any enemy planes."

Although the total number quoted at the SF Museum is 1440 shells
in total! There seems to be nothing of the incident mentioned at
official army & navy history archives. I believe the information
is still classified by Joseph Trainors statement here:

"(Editor's Comment:  Maybe the gang at the Black Vault could use
the Freedom of Information Act to get the Army's Situation
Reports for February 25, 1942 for the 65th and 205th A.A.
Regiments. Wouldn't that be interesting reading!)"

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/feb/m22-012.shtml

I've sent a request for the photo, it'll be interesting to see
what happens as even an article on the subject, written by the
LA Inquirer last year, which is owned by the LA Times, seem to
have been removed from their archive?








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                 Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:04:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:37:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hall


 >From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:26:06 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >>my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >>not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >>wondered why they don=E2=80=99t hear from abductees more often. I
 >>thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >>The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >>in which I received them.

<snip>

 >>K. Wilson

 >Katharina,

 >This was an excellent idea. The responses were revealing.

 >Aductee/contactee/experiencers are human beings caught between
 >two paradigms, two worlds. Their number can only be estimated,
 >but there are indications it could be dramatically large.

 >Many are "in the closet" and suffer an almost identical pattern
 >of problems faced by millions of members of the gay and lesbian
 >community.  They are essentially disenfranchised. Their
 >government will not even consider their position.

The fault lies not with "The Government." What abductees need is
human tolerance and understanding. It is scientists and the news
media, primarily, who are fault by sweeping everything under the
carpet and using and encopuraging ridicule.

 >At some point and in some manner these individuals must consider
 >exercising their influence based upon the power of their common
 >experience. If their numbers are as large as suspected, they
 >could as a group have determined the outcomes of every
 >presidential election in this century except the Reagan
 >landslides, not to mention a host of congressional elections.

The "Abductee Party?" Spare me this absurdity! Your political
pseudo-mathematics is laughable. How about if all we redheads
get together and vote as a block? Just as likely.

 >Those "in the closet" can utilize the secret ballot. Those who
 >are public about their experience can come together to demand
 >political redress.

Political redress for being abducted? Force the aliens to pay
reparations?

 >Is there any other set of people on this planet who have a more
 >profound bond?  Only great effort on the part of the government
 >in suppressing and managing the UFO/ET/Disclosure reality has
 >prevented this bond from becoming a political force for change.


Stephen,

You continue to twist everything to fit your political agenda.
"The Government" is not the solution to everything. I have
inserted some comments above.

Obviously, everything is political to you. By the way, do you or
don't you endorse Steven Greer's political agenda involving
energy resources, space weapons, etc.? Last I knew you were on
his board and working closely with him.

- Dick








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                             Re: Blimps - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 00:27:20 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:53:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Acres


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Blimps

<snip>

 >The Battle of Los Angeles is a very complicated and still
 >mysterious incident. The comments here so far haven't even
 >scratched the surface.

All of the above! But that's what makes puzzles fun! :)

 >There was not just one object involved in the incident. Multiple
 >objects were involved.


Including a Civillian Plane which was supposedly shot down! From
the same Gunners story :

"...one American twin-engine Beechcraft was shot down, possibly
by enemy action, while flying over the city at the same time as
the raid."

I believe an object was seen burning in the water & a Policeman
reported seeing a plane go down.








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                             Re: Blimps - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:08:43 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:55:04 -0400
Subject: Re:  Blimps - Acres


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

<snip>

 >This is another reason I feel it is so important to reveal the
 >truth regarding the photo. It is almost a certainty in my mind
 >that it has been doctored. Why doctored? The answer is easy. To
 >help support a misrepresented story biased towards et.

Hi Paul! :)

It appears that the photo entered the newspaper in the
"doctored" form, though?

I personally can't say as I haven't held the newspapers or
negatives in my hands?

Do you think the newspaper shown in the Rense article has been
altered? ET's were not a big subject at that time, so if it were
altered in 1942, why? Artistic license?

I suppose I could swallow that as he did do a lovely job! :)








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                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:41:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:58:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:15:26 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:28:17 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >Dick Hall? _The_ Dick Hall? Now I _know I've come to the right
 >place. We are not worthy!

 >Good to see you again, Dick.

 >==JJS==

Jim,

Welcome to Updates.

I'm not sure which Dick Hall you will find here; the "officious
authoritarian party-liner" or the real one.

There are some strange people on this List who have major chips
on their shoulders and axes to grind. But more importantly, the
List includes an incredible array of very talented and
knowledgable individuals on just about any topic related to
UFOs.

Better have your facts straight before posting, or you'll hear
about it! Usually in a very constructive and fair-minded
fashion, however.

 From recent posts it even appears that we may (finally) have
some knowledgable and straightforward skeptics of the desirable
kind (not CSICOP clone narrow-minded vigilantes).

I certainly welcome them as a needed element.


  - Dick








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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 03:52:32 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:00:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:26:24 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 >>>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:57:57 +1000
 >>>Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic

 ><snip>

 >I wonder if those are long exposures (seconds?).


Hi Dr. Macc, thanks for the input! :)

If it were true ack-ack fire & not just 'carved' from a
lightbeam, I'd say no, 'cause then we'd have a 'trail' from
shrapnel.

I'm guessing that there was no firing at this moment, so the
Artist at the LA Times cleverly created some fireworks by
cropping with indian ink!

The question is, how much did he touch?








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              Nefarious Activities [was: Reasons Why Abductees

From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:04:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:08:34 -0400
Subject: Nefarious Activities [was: Reasons Why Abductees


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:18:43 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

<snip>

 >Katharina,

 >Thank you for this very interesting and important feedback. I
 >hope some of the listers who are at least open-minded are paying
 >attention.

 >What all of you are saying conforms closely to what I learned by
 >interacting with something like 150 "experiencers" before I
 >became a burnout case.

 >One of the major problems is that many skeptics are unable to
 >see that serious, hardcore UFO reports establish the reality of
 >probable visitations; therefore, abductions seem totally "off-
 >the-wall" to them. They lack the context to understand that
 >what you (all) are trying to communicate fits very well into a
 >well- established pattern of evidence.

 >Your "message" also strongly refutes the wishful thinking of
 >people like Greer and Bassett who apparently yearn for
 >benevolent "Space Brothers" and who bend and twist data to serve
 >their own nefarious (in my opinion) activities.

 >More than once I have guiltily thought about how ironic and
 >satisfying it would be for those apparently amoral space bugs to
 >have their way with Phil Klass, Steven Greer, and other selected
 >parties. Maybe a barbed-wire anal probe would forcefully induce
 >some understanding.


Nowhere, in anything I have published to this List or any List or
to my three websites, have I ever demonstrated a "yearning for
benevolent 'Space Brothers'." If Mr. Hall can find such
material, please post it here.

As for the bending and twisting of data to serve nefarious
activities. What activities? Why nefarious? Everyone has an
opinion and anyone can become bitter in their old age, but try
not to let the bitterness supersede reason.

As for your last paragraph, what to say other than you should
feel guilty. Since abductions do take place and cause
considerable discomfort to many people, wishing such on those
with whom you disagree is like wishing those who disagree with
you on U.S. terrorism policy were only the next victims of the
next attack.

Richard, as one of the most knowledgeable and long serving
researchers in the field, you could be a positive force as this
transition takes place. Instead you piss on everyone you don't
like at every opportunity. Try to understand why those whom
you attack might, at some point, feel the need to piss back.


Regards,

Stephen Bassett








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                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:09:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:26:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Wilson


 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:55:46 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Meiners

 >>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post


 >To All Abductees on the List:

 >I noticed that all responses came from women abductees and I
 >know that there are many men lurkers who are abductees also;
 >but, they don't post here also and for the same reasons.... snip
 >Who wants to be ridiculed? Not me.  Very understandable.

 >Jean M.

Before I reply, I would like to thank Errol for posting this to
the UpDates List. I also want to thank Gildas Bourdais, Richard
Hall, Alfred Lehmberg, Stephen Bassett and Jean Meiners for your
comments. Although somewhat different, you were all supportive
and you seem to understand well the feelings we were trying to
express. I know the abductees who participated will appreciate
your comments as well.


Regarding Meiners comments: I did include three male abductees
on my list for the original question as to why they do not post.
One told me he "...didn't really know what to say and who would
care anyway?" and the other two did not respond at all.

I wonder if this could be interpreted to mean that male
abductees in general, may have a more difficult time going
public with this subject? I do not know the answer to that, but
I know there are a lot of male abductees we do not hear from and
I hope that changes soon.

In addition, three men responded to me off-list who said they
did not feel comfortable responding to my post publicly because
of the way their comments would be taken by others. And, two of
  these men, as far as I know, are not even abductees. Something
to think about perhaps?


Thank you again,

Katharina Wilson








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                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:04:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:29:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White


 >From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:26:06 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

<snip>

 >Is there any other set of people on this planet who have a more
 >profound bond? Only great effort on the part of the government
 >in suppressing and managing the UFO/ET/Disclosure reality has
 >prevented this bond from becoming a political force for change.


We need a way to get a question asked of the majority of the
population. I wish the Census Bureau would place a question like
this on their next questionnaire:

"Has anyone in your household experienced what is often referred
to as 'alien' abduction, or 'military' abduction?"

Since that isn't likely, can anyone think of a low cost method
of simply placing that question in front of a large percentage
of the population? If there are as many abductees as expected,
that could trigger a dramatic, 'critical mass' realization of
what has been going on quietly for so long.

(By the way, my experience in a similar field is that asking
such a question anonymously can increase the response rate, and,
a majority of responders do supply their names anyway.)


Eleanor White








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                 Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:26:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:30:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Friedman


 >From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)

 >No doubt many on the UpDates List have already seen this article
 >from today's NY Times. But many others may not have. In any
 >case, I thought it would be useful to pass it along.

 >Mike Briggs

 >mbriggs@ku.edu

 >-----

 >Source: The New York Times

 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?ex=1025495973&ei
=1&en=8fc63718a4160f01

 >A Vigorous Skeptic of Everything but Fact

 >June 19, 2002
 >By DINITIA SMITH

 >These are some of the things that Paul Kurtz, chairman of
 >the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
 >the Paranormal and publisher of the magazine Skeptical
 >Inquirer, does not believe in: parapsychology, holistic
 >cures for animal illnesses, the universal effectiveness of
 >chiropractic, extraterrestrial beings, alternative
 >medicine, Bigfoot and organized religion.

<snip>

I remain, largely, unimpressed. Mr. Kurtz is a brilliant
example, like B.F. Skinner, of how one can be so terribly,
terribly right, and at the same time be so woefully, regrettably
wrong. Dr. Skinner, the classic psychiatric behaviorist (and
probably a _favorite_ of Kurtz, I'd wager), was right that human
beings could be conditioned to do anything a 'conditioner' might
desire, but dreadfully wrong regarding whether human beings
_should_ be conditioned at all (at _least_ without informed
consent). Behaviorist doctrine means patent disrespect for an
individual.

As fine a man as Kurtz 'may' be, he's still a great example of
how much the world is improved by most funerals. His "Committee
for the Silly and Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons" is
evidence enough. His 'pawl' works in reverse.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

I had the distinct displeasure of doing a TV show (The Shulman
File) with Kurtz in Toronto. He is a typical nasty noisey
negativist who hadn't done his home work at all, but still came
on strong with his research by proclamation. Facts don't matter
to him. Instead it is bias, prejuduce and ignorance. What a
combination!

He demostrated these same characteristics on a Larry King show I
saw years ago.


Stan Friedman








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                             Re: Mantell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:54:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:33:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell


Bill,

 >I know the Mantell case and know he was about to fly by. The
 >pilot on the ground I referred to was not Mantell, but
 >supposedly a witness. It turns out this witness did not believe
 >in UFOs and was certain later that Mantell was chasing a balloon
 >that looked disk-like.

 >I am still not convinced that Mantell was 'closing' on a
 >balloon.

You should be. There is no reason to believe the object was
anything else. When I studied the case in order to reconstruct
it for my encyclopedia, I was surprised at how weak the case is
and how much was made of it. Frankly, it's disheartening at this
late date to see efforts to resurrect it, when there is no
shortage of far stronger, more puzzling reports far more worthy
of our attention.

One problem is that some apparently genuine UFO sightings
occurred that same evening, to the West in Ohio, and these often
get conflated, unjustifiably, into the Mantell saga. Please
check out my account in the encyclopedia or in the paperback
abridgement, The UFO Book, if you have either in your library.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark








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               Chinese Scientists Head For Suspected ET Relics

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:44:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:44:49 -0400
Subject: Chinese Scientists Head For Suspected ET Relics



From: UFO UpDates - Toronto


Source: The People's Daily - China

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200206/19/eng20020619_98177.shtml

Thursday, June 20, 2002

Chinese Scientists to Head for Suspected ET Relics

A group of nine Chinese scientists will go to west China's
Qinghai Province this month to closely examine the relics
thought by some to have been left by extraterrestrial beings
(ET).

A group of nine Chinese scientists will go to west China's
Qinghai Province this month to closely examine the relics
thought by some to have been left by extraterrestrial beings
(ET).

It will be the first time scientists seriously study the
mysterious site near Delingha City in the depths of the Qaidam
Basin, according to government sources with the Haixi Mongolian
and Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture, where Delingha is located.

The site, known by local people as "the ET relics", is on Mount
Baigong about 40 kilometers to the southwest of Delingha City.

On the north of the mountain are twin lakes dubbed as the "lover
Lakes", one with fresh water and the other with salty water.

"ET" pyramid, caves and pipes The so-called ET relics structure
is located on the south bank of the salty lake. It looks like a
pyramid and is between 50 to 60 meters high.

At the front of the pyramid are three caves with triangular
openings. The cave in the middle is the biggest, with its floor
standing two meters above the ground and its top eight meters
above the ground.

This cave is about six meters in depth. Inside there is a half-
pipe about 40 centimeters in diameter tilting from the top to
the inner end of the cave. Another pipe of the same diameter
goes into the earth with only its top visible above the ground.

Above the cave are a dozen pipes of various diameters which run
into the mountain.

All the pipes are red brownish, the same color as that of
surrounding rocks.

The two smaller caves have collapsed and are inaccessible.

Scattered about the caves and on the bank of the salty lake area
are a large number of rusty scraps, pipes of various diameters
and strangely shaped stones.

Some of the pipes run into the lake.


Mysterious site to be explored

According to Qin Jianwen, head of the publicity department of
the Delingha government, the scraps were once taken to a local
smeltery for analysis.

The result shows that they are made up of 30 per cent ferric
oxide with a large amount of silicon dioxide and calcium oxide.
Eight per cent of the content could not be identified.

"The large content of silicon dioxide and calcium oxide is a
result of long interaction between iron and sandstone, which
means the pipes must be very old," said Liu Shaolin, the
engineer who did the analysis.

"This result has made the site even more mysterious," Qin said.
"Nature is harsh here. There are no residents, let alone modern
industry in the area, only a few migrating herdsmen to the north
of the mountain."

Someone has suggested that the site might have been a launch
tower left by ET.

The area is high in altitude, with thin and transparent air. It
is an ideal place to practice astronomy, Qin said.

In fact, the Purple Mountain Observatory of the Chinese Academy
of Sciences has a large radio telescope just 70 kilometers from
the site.

Yang Ji, a research fellow at the observatory, said the
hypothesis of ET relics is understandable and worth of looking
into.

"But scientific means must be employed to prove whether t it is
true," he added.







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                 Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:23:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:55:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Lehmberg


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:26:28 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic...

 >>From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)

 >>No doubt many on the UpDates List have already seen this article
 >>from today's NY Times. But many others may not have. In any
 >>case, I thought it would be useful to pass it along.


 >>-----

 >>Source: The New York Times


=
 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/arts/television/19SKEP.html?ex=3D1025495=
973&ei=3D1&en=3D8fc63718a4160f01

 >>A Vigorous Skeptic of Everything but Fact

 >>June 19, 2002
 >>By DINITIA SMITH

 >>These are some of the things that Paul Kurtz, chairman of
 >>the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
 >>the Paranormal and publisher of the magazine Skeptical
 >>Inquirer, does not believe in: parapsychology, holistic
 >>cures for animal illnesses, the universal effectiveness of
 >>chiropractic, extraterrestrial beings, alternative
 >>medicine, Bigfoot and organized religion.

 >Some of you on this List may be surprised to learn that I
 >consider Prof. Kurtz to be one of the most brilliant and
 >admirable men of our times. While I abhor his stance on UFOs
 >(his CSICOP-hat), I greatly admire the work he has done in the
 >field of secular humanism (his CSH-hat).

 >I am a secular humanist myself, and actually helped start a
 >like-minded group here in Phoenix some years back, inspired by
 >Kurtz' books. By the way, I think Budd Hopkins also describes
 >himself as a secular humanist.

 >So I catch heck from both sides - from the UFO believers for
 >admiring Kurtz, and from my fellow secular humanists, some of
 >whom consider it "sacreligious" to give any credence whatever to
 >UFOs.

 >Oh, well, ya can't please everyone!



I think you are tres wise, sir, not to even try, just please
yourself like the Ricky Nelsen song of yore; and hey, I thought
you were going to lay low after your decade long absence and
lurk? <g> Did you get us all figured out that quickly? <g>

Seriously though, what brings you back after being gone so long?
You must have been pretty definite to have left in the first
place, and even more so to keep the aggregate disinterest going
for so many years. Did you hear the Sirens calling again?

And what advice would you offer to keep the interest going
enough in the subject to preclude a decade long absence from any
one of the rest of us? _I'd_ like an inoculation against dis-
interest, if you have one. Sincerely: Why did you leave? More
interestingly, why did you come back?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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               Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bassett

From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:27:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:07:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Bassett


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:04:25 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:26:06 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>>Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >>>my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >>>not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >>>wondered why they don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t hear from abductees more=
 often. I
 >>>thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >>>The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >>>in which I received them.

<snip>

 >>>K. Wilson

 >>Katharina,

 >>This was an excellent idea. The responses were revealing.

 >>Aductee/contactee/experiencers are human beings caught between
 >>two paradigms, two worlds. Their number can only be estimated,
 >>but there are indications it could be dramatically large.

 >>Many are "in the closet" and suffer an almost identical pattern
 >>of problems faced by millions of members of the gay and lesbian
 >>community.=C2 They are essentially disenfranchised. Their
 >>government will not even consider their position.

 >The fault lies not with "The Government." What abductees need is
 >human tolerance and understanding. It is scientists and the news
 >media, primarily, who are fault by sweeping everything under the
 >carpet and using and encopuraging ridicule.

 >>At some point and in some manner these individuals must consider
 >>exercising their influence based upon the power of their common
 >>experience. If their numbers are as large as suspected, they
 >>could as a group have determined the outcomes of every
 >>presidential election in this century except the Reagan
 >>landslides, not to mention a host of congressional elections.

 >The "Abductee Party?" Spare me this absurdity! Your political
 >pseudo-mathematics is laughable. How about if all we redheads
 >get together and vote as a block? Just as likely.

 >>Those "in the closet" can utilize the secret ballot. Those who
 >>are public about their experience can come together to demand
 >>political redress.

 >Political redress for being abducted? Force the aliens to pay
 >reparations?

 >>Is there any other set of people on this planet who have a more
 >>profound bond?=C2 Only great effort on the part of the government
 >>in suppressing and managing the UFO/ET/Disclosure reality has
 >>prevented this bond from becoming a political force for change.

 >You continue to twist everything to fit your political agenda.
 >"The Government" is not the solution to everything. I have
 >inserted some comments above.

 >Obviously, everything is political to you. By the way, do you or
 >don't you endorse Steven Greer's political agenda involving
 >energy resources, space weapons, etc.? Last I knew you were on
 >his board and working closely with him.


My position with respect to the work of the Disclosure Project
has been stated here and elsewhere numerous times. I support the
fundamental goal of the Disclosure Project which is to bring
about congressional hearings for the witnesses and to end the
government imposed UFO/ET truth embargo.

Steven Greer's views on a range of issues are well known. I
agree with some, disagree with others. I have never been on the
board of CSETI or the Disclosure Project. I have assisted the DP
when it was appropriate. I will assist anyone or any group
striving to end the truth embargo.


Regards,

Stephen Bassett








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   Jun > Jun 20

                       Re: Nefarious Activities - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:01:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:09:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Nefarious Activities - Hall


 >From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:04:56 EDT
 >Subject: Nefarious Activities [was: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post]

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:18:43 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 ><snip>

 >>Thank you for this very interesting and important feedback. I
 >>hope some of the listers who are at least open-minded are paying
 >>attention.

 >>What all of you are saying conforms closely to what I learned by
 >>interacting with something like 150 "experiencers" before I
 >>became a burnout case.

 >>One of the major problems is that many skeptics are unable to
 >>see that serious, hardcore UFO reports establish the reality of
 >>probable visitations; therefore, abductions seem totally "off-
 >>the-wall" to them. They lack the context to understand that
 >>what you (all) are trying to communicate fits very well into a
 >>well- established pattern of evidence.

 >>Your "message" also strongly refutes the wishful thinking of
 >>people like Greer and Bassett who apparently yearn for
 >>benevolent "Space Brothers" and who bend and twist data to serve
 >>their own nefarious (in my opinion) activities.

 >>More than once I have guiltily thought about how ironic and
 >>satisfying it would be for those apparently amoral space bugs to
 >>have their way with Phil Klass, Steven Greer, and other selected
 >>parties. Maybe a barbed-wire anal probe would forcefully induce
 >>some understanding.

 >Nowhere, in anything I have published to this List or any List or
 >to my three websites, have I ever demonstrated a "yearning for
 >benevolent 'Space Brothers'." If Mr. Hall can find such
 >material, please post it here.

 >As for the bending and twisting of data to serve nefarious
 >activities. What activities? Why nefarious? Everyone has an
 >opinion and anyone can become bitter in their old age, but try
 >not to let the bitterness supersede reason.

 >As for your last paragraph, what to say other than you should
 >feel guilty. Since abductions do take place and cause
 >considerable discomfort to many people, wishing such on those
 >with whom you disagree is like wishing those who disagree with
 >you on U.S. terrorism policy were only the next victims of the
 >next attack.

 >Richard, as one of the most knowledgeable and long serving
 >researchers in the field, you could be a positive force as this
 >transition takes place. Instead you piss on everyone you don't
 >like at every opportunity. Try to understand why those whom
 >you attack might, at some point, feel the need to piss back.


Whoa, Nelly! Maybe you would make a good politician after all.
You are very skillful at evading answering the core questions
and introducing diversionary tactics. You are yet to dissociate
yourself from Greer, and in fact you lend him support, so if you
aren't a believer in "Space Brothers" why do you do so? He sure
as hell is!

Nefarious activities?: (a) Supporting Greer and his ilk' (b)
Trying to convert people's hurt and pain into a personal
political advantage; (c) Making a ludicrous run for Congress on
the "UFO/abduction ticket." Want more?

This "bitter old man" as you characterize me may be around to
urinate on your grave. I come from very sturdy stock, and from
principled people who don't take kindly to opportunists, or to
con-men like Greer.

I have equally chastised MUFON Leaders for not disowning con-men
and cranks, so don't feel personally put upon. I am an "equal
opportunity" critic of nefarious activities in the UFO field.


  - Dick








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   Jun > Jun 20

                            Re: Mantell - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:20:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:13:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Ledger


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

 ><snip>

 >Clarification.

 >I know the Mantell case and know he was about to fly by. The
 >pilot on the ground I referred to was not Mantell, but
 >supposedly a witness. It turns out this witness did not believe
 >in UFOs and was certain later that Mantell was chasing a balloon
 >that looked disk-like.

 >I am still not convinced that Mantell was 'closing' on a
 >balloon.


Hi Bill,

I mis-understood that sentence it seems. I'm thinking that there
might have been a couple of balloons in the air near Godman that
day. Or at least one balloon and something as yet to be
identified. Witnesses on the ground and the police reported
quite a large object, a couple of hundred feet - estimated -
across. At low level the Skyhook would not have been lens or
disk-shaped but more in line with some of the reports from the
personnel at Godman tower who reported 'ice cream cone' or
'parachute-shaped' objects.

If Mantell's object was a Skyhook at higher altitudes, it then
could readily take on the flattened sphere or lens-shape, often
reported. I believe that its fully expanded shape was about 96
feet across.


Best,

Don








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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #20

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:47:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:17:07 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #20


Alfred's Odd Observation #20 (Thursday -- June 20, 2002)

What do you want from me, oh scurrilous and whiny CSICOPian? I
_see_ stuff. I say that with respect, also, to 'stuff' on more
than one level. Every morning of decent visibility I go _out_...
will generally provide me with an opportunity to make the
substantive report you read here. There have been many sightings
since the last accounting in #19 which would have been seen by
anyone with me (that is, anyone with the willingness to actually
go out and _look_. anyone one with the most minimal courage to
_see_ ... anyone desiring that reality LARGER than the one
metered out to them from their stingy mainstream's homogenizing
info-nipples). I saw weird stuff, again, this morning...

When a certain kind of guy has an inordinate amount of time with
which to 'look', he _will_ look, I think. I've been blessed (or
cursed depending on outlook) with just that kind of 'inordinate'
time, and I _am_ that certain kind of guy I'll later (and _most_
self-indulgently <g>) try to describe in this piece. It all
adds up to a genuine desire to find out just "what the hell is
going on." This is a desire that more of us have than not, I
believe, and I am in a position and have the time to have a
really good look for it, try to digest what I'm seeing, and then
report it to the contrarily involved, distracted and otherwise
employed in a useful, periodic, and entertaining kind of way. No
fiction here.

On reflection (?), just coming up on my first, more or less,
dedicated 'decade' of looking for the 'ufological' and trying to
develop some inclusive kind of knowledge base and general
sensitivity for it, I find I'm still able to pay the continued
price of its prosecution -- _be_ that kind of guy I will
describe... continue a _protracted_ period of personal
investigation, and a provide a good report on my, continuing,
wide-field exploration! This is forgetting that it doesn't have
to mean a damned thing to you, respected reader. The heartfelt
expression is going to be there, regardless. It's a record, and
a truthful one at that. It'll get read someday. [g].

...And let me make a quick digression with regard to the reader
wading through my "affected" writing style... It is done, simply,
the way it is done out of respect for the language, and in
extension, the reader. I'm not going to talk down to the reader,
no, or poke teasingly at the reader's lowest common denominator!
NO! Expect an intelligence, and many times _get_ an
intelligence. Expect Homer Simpson and get him _every_ time.

I am going to use, arguably, the best word available, in my
estimation, _regardless_, laddies and skepti-lassies! They
aren't words that will be used only one time, good reader, they
will be used again and again, in all my pieces fore and aft, for
good reason. They are words that open up new dimensions in time
and space for the individual that goes to the trouble of finding
out what they mean that _first_ time... a simple cut and paste
into 'Google' on the internet for instant gratification and an
expansion to the interior of a reader's intellectual bubble!
Grasp closer to reach! Take a step up on a new definition and see
farther than you did before! Finally, I write the best, most
considered, and most respectful kind of language I am capable of
producing.

I can do _no_ less in as much as you are reading it! I _must_
respect that. Moreover, different words put the reader's head in
different places, and with the fact of that dwindling commodity
(of diversity) evaporating rapidly in a contrived global
homogenization of slothful mediocrity as you read. the reader
needs all the difference she can get her sweaty little cognitive
hands on, whether he knows it or not!

The kind of language I'm talking about (and trying to employ
here) has an appreciation imbued by the user to treat the
language as if it were a box of verbal paint. In it are
aspirations to make every word a picture, every sentence a
portrait, and every collection of sentences a virtual holograph.
All things being equal I'd write in a language that begs to be
revisited, like a song, or like classic words of yore. That's
what I aspire to here, with no shame, no embarrassment, and no
guile. I would be of respected service, as would any sociophile.

Words _are_ paints and magics and tools and weapons! They travel
in time, and are as eternal as they are made and preserved. They
are teachers, leaders, and entertainers. They are efficiency.
They are efficacy. They are immortality!

They are the very COIN and FABRIC of cultural memory! In as much
as they paint better, more durable and longer lasting pictures,
they are the ART of primary expression! Our culture will survive
much, much longer than those of antiquity because (outside the
threat of idea [and therefore book!] burning CSICOPians, or the
electricity stops working), the consolidation of it is going to
be very hard to forget. Believe it!

What kind of person am _I_? Why should the reader _remotely_
care? I'm not suggesting that the reader should, really, but
that I _am_ in the process of telling her about some pretty
'twitchy' stuff, so I feel obligated to qualify my
inquisitiveness, justify my conscientiousness, and predicate my
truthfulness for her -- if I can. Someone's going to write this
stuff, I've a premonition, and as I have the means, the desire,
and the attitude to write it myself, I will. Read or not. It's
_almost_ the same to me. [g].

I'm the kind of person who _will_ blow his own horn once in a
while... because if we don't it's not too long before a _funnel_
is made of it, and it loses its ability to even _be_ a horn.
Pretty soon, there is NOTHING around but "funnels" (the
Bush/Ashcroft master plan?), too hesitant to contribute to the...
efficaciously fertile sonic cacophony! That's part of the
present problem, ladies and gentlebunkies! Give me the "Rebel
Alliance" over the "Empire" anytime, if you'll forgive the George
Lucas reference.

Who would I aspire to be eventually? Consider the rapidly
depressurizing airliner. All the yellow oxygen masks drop down
in the emergency, and you put your neighbor's on him before you
put your own on yourself. You've been admonished by the flight
crew to put your own mask on _first_ so you will be _around_ to
help a struggling fellow passenger. It's like that. I've got my
mask on in the time allowed me, and I might be able to offer
suggestions facilitating a better seal on yours... I would
aspire to be around to serve, indeed, I've volunteered for
service all my life, doing all sorts of jobs no one else wanted
to do. That's over!

I'm an artist. I'm not the only one who thinks so. I say that
straight out and without pretension. An 'outsider' discovered by
Dr. Faye Earnest of Enterprise State College (who produced a one
man show of my work decidedly award winning), I represent the
art community with no formal training in it. I push the
materials or media around in ways that satisfy me, without
regard to convention or tradition and so I am unhindered by the
"conventional wisdom" of what "does" and "does not" work. Words
are just another box of paint to me -- another art to reflect
what is perceived as truth. I do what an artist does. I don't
_know_ any better.

I'm a whistle blower. This is a quality that I didn't realize I
had until very recent reflection, years after the fact,
demonstrated it to be true. In the military I would flirt with
disloyalty to my superiors when they would operate in arbitrary
manners that, knowingly and thoughtlessly, abused the troops. I
blew the whistle on them. I was instrumental in getting more
than a few of my superiors relieved. This cost me, generally, a
career above the company level despite being awarded four times
the recognition for meritorious service as the usual officer in
my grade. I turned down my _last_ promotion, awarded on the
_second_ consideration when it was discovered by the promotion
board that my failure to get picked up 'first look' was a result
of one of those 'superior' officers I _should_ have helped
torpedo (very justifiably... he lied, cheated , and stole...
nearly killed a guy thoughtlessly in a field training exercise),
to leave the Army at last after 23 years.

I'm paying a whistle blower's freight, still, with pride and
satisfaction! I've been denied friends (such as _they_ were),
opportunities, and about a hundred thousand dollars in lost
income to prosecute what, I have strong convictions, is
rightness to a _high_ degree!

Continuing on the thread of "whistle blowing," One can only
imagine what my experience was like in my subsequent career as a
Public School teacher... oil and water does not begin to provide
an adequate metaphor, but upon coming from a military operation
that had to work by definition, my sagacity was by no means
appreciated in an operation that does NOT have to work, also by
definition. I was treated generally (and from the beginning) as
a pariah despite the fact that I was on my very best,
appropriately subordinate, behavior. Though I could not ignore
hypocrisy and malpractice without at least asking probative
questions about it. Anything else makes my stomach hurt, and why
should _my_ stomach hurt when it's not my problem and a result
of the unethical actions of others? Why should yours? The reader
will just have to take my word for that, but it applies in the
ufological arena as well.

I am a "Boy Scout", philosophically.  I believe all the stuff I
learned in school about honor, truthfulness, and fidelity, and I
was nonplussed, to say the bleeding _least_, upon discovering
that that was, decidedly, nothing but an artful dodge, mostly,
used by otherwise unrestricted psychopaths to secure unethical
advantage because, honored reader, they were not compelled by a
society (they controlled) to follow the same rules that you and
I are compelled to follow. Honor, truthfulness, and fidelity
have earned sneers were there should have been citation, loss
where there should have been efficacious gain, and rejection
where there should have been ready acceptance. I would ram those
easy sneers back up some of those sociopathic noses (or
alternate avenues to where the sun doesn't shine) and _will_,
given the attention of an interested reader. Who are "they", the
aforementioned psychopaths? Already asked and answered. Check
the archives.

I'm a trained military observer (I used to teach observation
techniques as a flight standardization officer in the Army) as I
hope this series has demonstrated. I'm not given to taking
apples for oranges, pelicans for costumed super heroes, or UFOs
for thrown pie plates and satellites outside their forecast. I'm
_not_ a believer, but at the same time I am _not_ a reflexive
_disbeliever_. I cannot accept; however, especially given even a
clouded history of our own species, that we are the center of
the universe, the crown of creation, or even the shining buckle
on God's three corner HAT! I don't believe in gods made in the
image of those who would have me do their unctuous bidding. Like
George Santayana, I am an ATHEIST in that regard.

I'm a writer. I write nonfiction that takes what I would think
is an enthusiastic and creative delight in the craft. I want to
inspire a reader, enliven a reader, stimulate a reader. I would
encourage a reader, revitalize a reader as I have been
revitalized by reading, and, finally, I would challenge the
reader as I have been challenged.

I am eyes with the TIME to look. Look _with_ me! I am ears with
the MOTIVATION to hear. It is there for you to listen to. I am
voice with the OPPORTUNITY to speak. I'm speaking now. Like
eating and breathing, I am compelled to produce these ufological
reports and expressions because I sense in them (or more, in
what provokes them) a 'truth' that will likely not be
forthcoming from any other quarter. Call me self absorbed, I've
earned it.

The aforementioned truth is detected between lines of cross
purposed communication everywhere else, between the very stars I
observe at night, and I suspect that it is a truth that is at
the base of many other, subordinate, truths. Know this -one-
  truth to know many more. UFOs are real, by way of example, and
I think everyone intrinsically knows that, even the most gravid
CSICOPian skeptibunky at _some_ dank level or in _some_ dark
recess or cavity.

I see stuff in the night sky, at any rate, that is not remotely
addressed in the wan pontifications of those with a CSICOPian
cant, and I shall not hesitate to point that out to same.
Individuals of the aforementioned bent (individuals and
collections of these individuals who continue to pound straw
into their nineteenth century sensibilities, fifteenth century
mores, and first century philosophies) can just bloody well get
_used_ to my earnest dissection of them as long as I am able to
stab a key with an index finger. I _enthusiastically_ encourage
others to do the same!

It's only what I have been allowed the time to do. The lap-dog
mainstream should have allowed a more consuming employment for
me. I was just fine (and performed splendidly) as cannon fodder.
...Sorry that an employment of that same capability (in the
interests of the rout and general destruction of CSICOPia?)
scorches CSICOPian prairie oysters, but that's the way the
saucer crashes! <Big Smile>

I just can't feel _very_ sorry for him. He's the mainstream
himself and so has his reflexive support built right in.
Ironically lonely, he is never _alone_, our intrepid
CSICOPian... Isn't that right, Mr. Novak? Isn't that correct,
Mr. Thompson? Buckle up... enjoy the dying thrashings of elitist
Empire, something better is _sure_ to rise from the dust and
ashes. [g].

.That's enough. I remain watching the skies. Read on!

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jun > Jun 21

                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Warren

From: Larry Warren <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:06:43 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 03:01:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Warren


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

<snip>

Hi List folk,

Without UFO witinesses, researchers haven't any cases to
investigate,and in the end it will be the people who have
interacted with UFOs first-hand and thei first-hand accounts
that the general public will accept or reject! And to date, we
all have done a bloody good job!

Sadly, some researchers have hindered this movement by forcing a
rigid and out-dated view down the public's throat for too many
years.

People are pretty sharp to the fact that this stuff happens
{UFOs} and I sense that when a person, new to all of this, wants
to get involved and try to add to the the solution, I'm sure
that in a very short time they see how this field eats its
young, and craps all over its witnesses when their usefulness
has gone.

I've seen it all for years and years! So Katharina, you go girl!

I hope that your point is well taken, but sadly, some of these
cats, just won't grasp it.

On a last note, it vexes me when researchers think people have
chips on thier shoulders when they stand up for themselves?.

With love and happiness,

Larry Warren








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   Jun > Jun 21

                             Re: Blimps - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2002 16:41:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 03:05:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - McCoy


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 00:27:20 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:02:55 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: Blimps

 ><snip>



Hello, all David, Jan,

 >>The Battle of Los Angeles is a very complicated and still
 >>mysterious incident. The comments here so far haven't even
 >>scratched the surface.

<snip>

 >Including a Civillian Plane which was supposedly shot down! From
 >the same Gunners story :

Well, if the Twin Beech (Beech 18, C-45, At-11 et. al.) was shot
down in early 1942, if it was a civilian B-18 this should be
easy to check, as in 1942, there were only a few hundred less
than 250, built  at that point, as civil aircraft.

Also the B-18 was, along with the Lockeeed model 11 & 12, a
popular corporate trasport. However, the flight restrictions
that were in place at the time, would  have made the movements
of civil aircraft difficult at best.

I have never heard of this, and have several sources on the B-18
and look like model 11 & 12. I'll do some checking.

Also, I have flown one, great aircraft. One of those at the
point where real airplanes begin. (along with DeHavilland
Beavers and Otters)

GT McCoy







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   Jun > Jun 21

                  Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:28:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:03:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Myers


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic...
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:26:56 -0300

 >>From: Mike Briggs <mbriggs@ku.edu>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT)

 ><snip>

 >I remain, largely, unimpressed. Mr. Kurtz is a brilliant
 >example, like B.F. Skinner, of how one can be so terribly,
 >terribly right, and at the same time be so woefully, regrettably
 >wrong. Dr. Skinner, the classic psychiatric behaviorist (and
 >probably a _favorite_ of Kurtz, I'd wager), was right that human
 >beings could be conditioned to do anything a 'conditioner' might
 >desire, but dreadfully wrong regarding whether human beings
 >_should_ be conditioned at all (at _least_ without informed
 >consent). Behaviorist doctrine means patent disrespect for an
 >individual.

 >As fine a man as Kurtz 'may' be, he's still a great example of
 >how much the world is improved by most funerals. His "Committee
 >for the Silly and Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons" is
 >evidence enough. His 'pawl' works in reverse.

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >I had the distinct displeasure of doing a TV show (The Shulman
 >File) with Kurtz in Toronto. He is a typical nasty noisey
 >negativist who hadn't done his home work at all, but still came
 >on strong with his research by proclamation. Facts don't matter
 >to him. Instead it is bias, prejuduce and ignorance. What a
 >combination!

 >He demostrated these same characteristics on a Larry King show I
 >saw years ago.


Hi Stan,

I too had the dis-pleasure of being on a radio program several
years ago with Kurtz. He was supposed to stay on the air and
talk UFOs with me. I brought up a remarkable UFO video taken
down in the Nevada area. In mid-sentence, Kurtz thought it would
be okay to interrupt me and zealously proclaim the Phoenix
Lights were a fraud - even though I was talking about Nevada.

I had to remind Kurtz, several times, that I was talking about
some footage out of Nevada and not Arizona - he still didn't get
it and kept wanting to focus on the Phoenix Lights case. I
finally had to tell him to stop talking and that he had already
had his opportunity to talk in the previous half-hour.

After discussing this video-footage, Kurtz was asked about it by
the host. Kurtz said he didn't know anything about it and that
the, you guessed it, Phoenix Lights case was nothing. Kurtz then
said it was getting late and he had to go.

Indeed, investigation by proclamation seems to be the MO of
these folks. Really, how many field investigations have these
guys conducted? These are the same folks saying that all cattle
mutilation cases are predators and cultists - yet they can't
directly prove it nor can they challenge the data on the subject
to date.....


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 21

                             Re: Blimps - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:42:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:19:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Ledger


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:53:49 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:11:39 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

<snip>

 >>Wasn't someone killed downrange somewhere due to spent triple-A?

 >Hi Don!:) Sorry for not answering your question! The reports are
 >extremely varied as Paul Novak noted! Some say 6 some 5, 3 and
 >1. Some say heart-attack, motor vehicle but only one article
 >directly says

 >"Although the regiment shot 3,286 shells and the unit failed to
 >down any enemy planes."

 >Although the total number quoted at the SF Museum is 1440 shells
 >in total! There seems to be nothing of the incident mentioned at
 >official army & navy history archives. I believe the information
 >is still classified by Joseph Trainors statement here:

Hi David,

What you've stated above is what I remember reading some time
ago. But that certainly was still a lot of metal shot into the
air, times what - about 20-30 pounds apiece? A great deal of
which came down in the area.

Take the UFO question out of the equation and there's still some
answers missing. If indeed people were injured, one would think
that someone would have had to answer for it. Now I know these
were different times and there was a war on, but where's the
wrap-up report?

I realise that there was hysteria involved but some cooler heads
must have prevailed and someone probably wrote it up.

Here on the East Coast of Canada during the war we had ferry
boats sunk by U-boats - in the St. Lawrence. Germans pulled from
the North Atlantic after their U-boat was sunk had theatre
ticket stubs from the Paramount movie theatre here in Halifax in
their trouser pockets.

RCN Destroyers and convoy vessels were sunk not far from the
mouth of Halifax Harbour in 1940-43.

Most families in this area had someone they'd lost on a
transport vessel in convoy when they were being sunk in great
numbers not far from our shores. Still the people here didn't
fold from hysteria - and I suspect that they didn't do that
in LA, either.

If anything, it was more likely a chance to fire off some rounds
and break the boredom than hysteria.

Think what happened after 9/11. I remember seeing cases where
they were finding terrible security breaches at airports -
especially Logan International - despite the government
hammering home the fact that they had to seal up their airports.
It takes a long time to get people whipped up and into a frenzy
- unless of course - they are at a soccer match.


Best,

Don








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   Jun > Jun 21

                        Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:07:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002


 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

<snip>

 >PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

 >GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
 >medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
 >Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.
 >At 10:00 PM, the witnesses noticed that lights or stars were
 >moving around the sky past a tall lookout tower. "The object
 >appeared to be a star moving at first in a straight line for
 >several inches (if you held a 12" ruler at arm's length) that
 >then would stop, then accelerate foreword three times in short
 >bursts. They then made a zigzag pattern at incredible speeds."
 >He said, "My girlfriend also saw it, but did not want to believe
 >that it might be a UFO. I am an electrician from Pittsburgh,
 >and yes both of us were sober. Thanks to Peter Davenport at the
 >National UFO Reporting Center, http://www.ufocenter.com. >>

George, List:

This is obviously a garden veriety example of autokinetic motion
of the eye muscles. For an example, go outside tonight as soon
as it's dark and if the sky is clear look to the West for
brilliant Venus. Stare at it for a minute or so and you will see
the famous "falling leaf effect" of the last Allen Hynek. For
moving aircraft of satellites, this often appears as though the
object just stops, or sometimes reverses direction.

Clear skies,

Bob Young






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              Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:38:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:17:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:19:15 -0500

 >>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>To All:

 >>Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >>my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >>not post to the UFO UpDates List. Some people on this List have
 >>wondered why they don't hear from abductees more often. I
 >>thought this might be a good time to ask them.

 >>The following are the responses I received, listed in the order
 >>in which I received them.


 ><snip>

 >>---------------

 >>I can relate to and understand everything the people above have
 >>stated. I think all abductees can. We have all been in similar
 >>situations and have felt all of these emotions at one time or
 >>another.

 >>The main reason I stopped posting was because of the way certain
 >>people were behaving on the List. It seemed to me that things
 >>were being written about the personal life of an abductee that
 >>were completely unacceptable.

 >>The rule I live by is not to ever divulge information about
 >>another abductee or their experiences unless I have their
 >>express written permission to do so.

 >>The things that were written about one abductee in particular
 >>crossed the line. The fact that it came from a fellow abductee
 >>was one of the most distasteful things I have ever read on the
 >>UFO UpDates List. As Michelle stated above, abductees experience
 >>enough isolation and ridicule from the general public
 >>[especially the debunkers] - to see this type of behavior coming
 >>from one of our own is very sad and it is completely unacceptable.

 >I may resemble some of the above. I may resemble _all_ of the
 >above. I've been challenging, contrary, contentious and
 >quarrelsome, forgetting that I have always been (or tried to be)
 >consistent and conscientious in a manner that would soften those
 >things. I'm perhaps overly passionate about the subject because
 >I see it as the root cause of many, if not all, of our social,
 >cultural, and philosophical ills.

Dear Alfred:

There are very few of us who have not been contentious. Driven
by passion, conscientious by intellect and character and
dedicated to finding some semblance of absolute truth, some of
us are not found guilty of the former.

The problem arises when the contention, through debate, becomes
personal through angst. When all else fails, some of us fall
back on the child within. But the child within has learned many
tricks since. Those tricks allow the passion to become hurtful
and hateful. There's the rub, eh?

 >UFOs are perhaps too important a subject to be left to a handful
 >of men (and _too_ few women), whatever their qualification or
 >level of professionalism (in a manner similar to war being too
 >important an enterprise to be left to the general officers who
 >officiate it). This explains my tolerant attitude regarding who
 >or what might have some validity or even a shred of the truth...
 >whatever _that_ is. Unable to depend on my community to provide
 >a _quality_ mainstream, I've had to try to determine it for
 >myself.

Take it one step further, Alfred. When a man tells his truth,
none may nay say him. Those who do, oft perform the act with
barbed hooks. Aiming at the vitals until the victim is either
tired or too embarrassed to take it further. Take for example a
recent self proclaimed truth. Doesn't matter which, pick any
one. The first to attack should be the last to attack and the
first to defend. Alas, it does not always turn out that way.

It is up to us, the perceived abductees, to defend each other
until or if the time arises when that abductee proves to be
other than what he or she contends. Period. Therein lies
advocacy.

 >If I have been corrosively offensive to our very tenuous and
 >volatile abduction (or ufological) community (outside of the
 >officious authoritarian, demanding strict adherence to an
 >unsatisfactory, inadequate, and demonstrably unsuccessful
 >"party-line"), well -- I would count it among one of my more
 >deeply felt regrets.

As Poet Laureate of this List and indeed, the UFO and Abduction
Poet Laureate, you've endured much derision. However it is
obvious that what you defend so passionately deserves defense.
What you attack so viciously deserves the same. And there is no
one on this or any List who may prove that you've become an
angry man whose lust for being right precludes being a
gentleman. No one.

 >My only defense is that I am writing my conscience, sense a
 >contribution to something truly important that I can make
 >(consciousness raising if nothing else), and that I focus my
 >arguments more tightly on the ideas proposed than on the
 >individual proposing them, forgetting that individuals, of
 >needs, must pay freight for their expressions in a _real_ world.
 >No one has told me to "shut [my] pie hole" much less provided me
 >with some good rational why I should, banned me from, perhaps,
 >too prolific participation, or otherwise moderated me in any
 >way...

Shut your pie hole, Lehmberg, as you require no defense. You've
been a shining example of one who comports himself to the nines.

 >Some may argue that that is symptomatic of what the "problem"
 >is, but I can attest to the fact that Errol Bruce-Knapp has not
 >taken sides, in the larger sense, on any argument in the forum,
 >and he has only ever conducted himself in a manner that befits
 >his role as a facilitator for all useful positions. Look up the
 >word "moderator" in your Funk and Wagnall's and there is very
 >likely a little picture of 'Errol' right _there_. Posting the
 >very highly critical expression I'm responding to here is just
 >the latest example of the egalitarian attitude that Knapp
 >portays and typifies. It just doesn't get any better than this
 >List, ladies and gentlebunkies...

Errol Bruce-Knapp made me wonder about a great deal, when after
baring my own private parts on the air, it became evident that
some needed more. Truth be known, I am too thin skinned and too
trusting to be in this business. It's a thing I must get over if
I am to stay on the correct path, the one I set out to be on
back in 1997. On that path lies danger. For me.

A special man, Budd Hopkins, got the truth, such as it is, out
of me. Something even medications could not do. The recall is
controlled, not led, and a most welcome weight removed from my
shoulders. In more ways than one. And so in making me wonder
about Errol, I turned on me. But _I_ did that. Pushed a tad, but
it was my life and my decision to make, not anyone else's.
Having made the decision to see Budd, I am now eternally
grateful to those who turned their backs on my words. I am more
grateful to my enemies than they could ever know. Now, they are
no longer enemies. Just misled people with an ax to grind.

 >I humbly submit that I would be listening closely to PUBLIC (and
 >private) expressions (on _this_ forum) regarding the quality of
 >_my_ contribution to this 'thing' that has captured our
 >interest, and I suggest that _others_, those evaluated as
 >especially troublesome by the community (?), would benefit in a
 >similar manner. If _my_ critic shares even uncomfortable
 >information with me in a non-punitive, intelligent manner,
 >devoid of insults and hidden axes to grind... I am _all_
 >attention. I'm likely to learn something at the minimum, and at
 >the maximum I will be efficaciously changed. I only ask that you
 >tell me any 'good', along with the enevitable 'bad' if you do...
 >this goes for everyone -- regarding anyone.

Unfortunately Alfred, there are some in this world who are not
devoid of axes to grind, hidden agendas, insults and non
punitive natures. These are the ones who cause the same
divisiveness they, in writing, abhor. There is a way to the
truth, there is a way to debate and the way is not the manner in
which some of us perform our advocacy's. On that path lies
danger as well. But not for the righteous. And who are the
righteous? Those who their advocacy's as gentlemen would. As
Lehmberg does.

Well, maybe not _all_ the time. But during those temporary
lapses one may well imagine they deserved exactly what they got.

 >I know one thing. It is our _co-operation_ that is going to get
 >to the bottom of this thing, not fractious in-fighting and
 >obligatory back-biting. We'd be better served to hang together
 >when we can, if only to preclude the despairing alternative
 >which is, of course, hanging separately. I've got my ears open,
 >along with my eyes, so I'm also open to quality expressions
 >regarding the subject of Ms. Wilson's considered post. We all
 >could be.

Indeed. However if we cannot get our researchers to cooperate,
how then can I have assumed so naively, that we can get
ourselves, the perceived abductees, to cooperate. See how silly
I was? I believed without a shadow of a doubt, a belief so
strong that I did not even consider the matter in my mind, that
the abductee would by necessity, cooperate, if not out of an
intent to act as gentlemen, then out of the need to bleed
together and give support to one the other. Instead, we treat
each other as if we were mortal enemies. That was for me, the
main point of Katarina's post.

Not acceptable. Whilst I admire Errol for allowing all to
participate in this List, even me, I do not accept venom. Nor do
I accept angst. In the past, I've been far more guilty of that
which I abhor, than Alfred could ever be. However I learn. And
in learning, I have apologized long and earnestly to those I may
have hurt. The only defense I give for my behavior is self
defense. Pride. And the heart of a Palermian as opposed to a
Lehmbergian or Torontian. (more intellectual I hear, are they)

In future, I shall learn yet another function, to point my
cursor to the place on my email which says, "Delete." In doing
so, I relinquish my right to self defense. However by now, I can
do so with the firm knowledge that it is no longer necessary.

I share my pain because I want others who suffer to know they
are not alone. And also, because I refuse to allow the abduction
community to be swayed by the false belief that the loudest
noise dictates the greatest knowledge, or that that noise
represents the honor of the abduction community. It does not.


Jim Mortellaro
Perceived abductee and not proud of it








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   Jun > Jun 21

                 Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:38:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:23:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Speiser


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:23:57 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic...

 >Seriously though, what brings you back after being gone so long?
 >You must have been pretty definite to have left in the first
 >place, and even more so to keep the aggregate disinterest going
 >for so many years. Did you hear the Sirens calling again?

Well, to be honest, I had decided to get involved in one last
project having to do with the Walton case. My family and I have
rented a house in Show Low, AZ for the summer, and I wanted to
take advantage of my closeness to the site to look into some new
information on the case. I've been out of the field for so long,
however, that I thought it would be a good idea to join Lists
such as this one to catch up on what's happening in general.

Sadly, it looks as if my project isn't going to happen now. You
are no doubt aware of the huge wildfires taking place in our
state right now; I'm sorry to report that one of them is
threatening the Turkey Springs area, where the Walton incident
took place. It may already be gone. Right now I'm in Phoenix,
but tomorrow, if the roads are open, I'm going to drive back up
to Show Low and get the word on the status of the site.

Oh, yeah, my wife's up there, too, so I should probably check on
her safety as well.... <g> Seriously, it looks as if the fire
will miss Show Low itself, if the winds don't shift.

 >And what advice would you offer to keep the interest going
 >enough in the subject to preclude a decade long absence from any
 >one of the rest of us? _I'd_ like an inoculation against dis-
 >interest, if you have one. Sincerely: Why did you leave? More
 >interestingly, why did you come back?

Why did I leave... let's see... let me count the ways... <g> I
guess the main reason was the quagmire the field fell into in
the late eighties/early nineties. The majority of cases and
stories that emerged were hoaxes, many investigators I had
confidence in began defending spurious cases, the degree of
vituperation increased geometrically, the amount of
disinformation began to explode, and I just got an overall bad
taste in my mouth. It seemed I had come along at a time when the
gentlemanly pursuit of Ufology was at an ebb after the deaths of
Hynek, Keyhoe and McDonald, and it was no longer fun. Worse, I
was afraid that if I stuck around any longer, I would become a
casualty myself, either being duped by some disinfo-operative or
jumping on a bandwagon that turned out to be a hoax.

I also gradually came to realize that I had gotten out of the
field what I came into it for: a form of closure. My curiosity
had been satisfied, I no longer scratched my head wondering if
people were really seeing these things, and if they were
genuinely strange or just misperceptions. I now know, with as
much certainty as I can muster, that UFOs are real, and that
they are not mundane. I haven't yet made the leap to believing
that they really come from outer-space, but by golly, there
really is something up there that shouldn't be, and the
scientists and academics are wrong to ignore it. I tried to make
a difference in some small way, promoting cases I thought were
valid, providing channels of communication for pro- and anti-
ufologists to find common ground, and goading members of the
press to take a longer look. But in the end I just lost the
energy and drive needed to keep up the attack. I told myself,
"My work here is done", and moved on.

What _kept_ me out was mainly a gradual worsening of my wife's
health, coupled with a steady stream of family problems,
distractions, etc. My move to Show Low was partly designed to
remedy several of those problems, including getting my wife out
of the blistering heat for the summer.

Why am I back? Well, again, let me stress, I'm _not_ really
"back". I'm just looking in. My one little project has gone up
in smoke, literally, so I won't be an active investigator. I
really do think I'm just going to shrink back into the
background and watch you guys carry on your fight. And I just
wanted to be able to say hi to my old buds like Kalani and Bruce
and Stanton and Stan. Hi again guys!

==JJS==









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   Jun > Jun 21

                  Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 00:00:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:26:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:41:15 +0000

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:15:26 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:28:17 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: Request For Investigative & Remedial Intervention

 >>Dick Hall? _The_ Dick Hall? Now I _know I've come to the right
 >>place. We are not worthy!

 >>Good to see you again, Dick.

 >>==JJS==

 >Jim,

 >Welcome to Updates.

 >I'm not sure which Dick Hall you will find here; the "officious
 >authoritarian party-liner" or the real one.

Dear Mr. Dick, Listers and EBK,

May we have a vote on this, Dick?

 >There are some strange people on this List who have major chips
 >on their shoulders and axes to grind. But more importantly, the
 >List includes an incredible array of very talented and
 >knowledgable individuals on just about any topic related to
 >UFOs.

Perhaps you might wish to illuminate us as to the strange and
the chippies on this List. I am quite curious.

 >Better have your facts straight before posting, or you'll hear
 >about it! Usually in a very constructive and fair-minded
 >fashion, however.

Dick, you've been reading this List for how long? Although I am
grateful for your use of the word, "Usually", I am not impressed
by it's failure to communicate the reality of the phenom,
meaning it just doesn't quite make the explanation complete.

 >From recent posts it even appears that we may (finally) have
 >some knowledgable and straightforward skeptics of the desirable
 >kind (not CSICOP clone narrow-minded vigilantes).

 >I certainly welcome them as a needed element.

Me too. Finally, we can agree on something. Let it be me.

Jim








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   Jun > Jun 21

                Disclosure2003 Press/Media Release - 6/21/02

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:16:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:31:57 -0400
Subject: Disclosure2003 Press/Media Release - 6/21/02


  D I S C L O S U R E 2 0 0 3
  The 8th District Congressional Campaign of Stephen Bassett

JUNE 21, 2002 PRESS/MEDIA RELEASE

Bethesda, MD - Independent congressional candidate, Stephen
Bassett, will guest on Coast to Coast AM with Barbara Simpson
Sunday night, June 23, 11 p.m. PST. This will be the first
national interview regarding the Disclosure2003 campaign since
it was announced at the National Press Club on April 17. Coast
to Coast AM is the number one late night talk show in the U.S.

The campaign has recently gotten international press in Great
Britain (Sunday Express) and the Russian Federation (Pravda).

The Disclosure2003 campaign will bring the issue of an
extra-terrestrial presence onto a congressional election ballot
for the first time. It will also address the government imposed
embargo placed on full disclosure of this fact since at least
1947.

Campaign volunteers have now collected one half of the required
signatures for ballot access. The balance will be collected by
August 5, and certification is expected on or about August 15.

Disclosure2003 will seek to raise public awareness for a range
of controversial and important issues by taking advantage of the
considerable national focus expected on the 8th District contest
in Maryland. The three leading candidates (two Democrats and one
Republican) are expected to collectively raise and spend $6
million by election day. A fierce Democratic primary race, which
includes Shriver/Kennedy family member, Mark Shriver, will be
followed by an even more intense contest with 8-term incumbent,
Connie Morella.

At this time, no other party or independent has filed in the 8th
District for congress.

Related websites:
Disclosure2003 - www.disclosure2003.net
Coast to Coast AM - www.artbell.com

__________________________________________________

Transparent government, private citizenry
__________________________________________________

  Campaign Headquarters
  Bethesda/Gaithersburg
  4938 Hampden Lane, #161
  Bethesda, MD 20814
  Phone: 301-990-4290 Fax: 301-990-1099
  Email: Disclosure2003@aol.com
  Website: www.disclosure2003.net








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   Jun > Jun 21

                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:42:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:34:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:58:38 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>To All:

 >>Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >>my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >>not post to the UFO UpDates List.

<snip>

 >>---------------

 ><snip>

 >What about, if EBK approves, having two lists - UFOs and
 >Abductees?  The two topics could still come together on the
 >SDI show itself, but perhaps a strictly Abductee List might
 >not attract as much negativity as the current mixed List?

 >>From the sound of the non-poster abductees, the traffic would
 >increase due to more being willing to post, so would you, Errol,
 >have enough time to accommodate the two separated lists?


Hello Eleanor:

Apart from the extra burden on EBK and inevitable complications,
I think your idea has certain merits.

A subscriber could lurk on one list, participate in the other
while monitoring both.

Occasionally, when the subject matter affects UFO sightings
_and_ abductees, he or she could post to both lists.

If there is some unwelcome thread brewing on one List, the other
may well proceed un-encumbered. Hmmm..



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Jun > Jun 22

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 25

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:34:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:00:27 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 25

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 25
June 18, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


PANIC ON THE PAMPAS:
CATTLE MUTILATIONS
TOP 30 IN ARGENTINA

       Argentina's current wave of cattle mutilations
entered its second month with a spectacular outbreak of
cases throughout La Pampa province.  The total of dead
cows found mutilated now exceeds thirty.
       "Five cows were found dead this past weekend (June 8
and 9, 2002) in the Cuchillo Co region.  The animals'
lifeless bodies were missing organs, and their mysterious
deaths were added to more than ten cases that still
perplex police officers and veterinarians alike in
investigating these events."
       "The Aberdeen Angus cows were found at the estancia
"La Sierra" (ranch), owned by Gregoria Echevez, located
some 150 kilometers (90 miles) west of General Acha."
       "Police sources informed (the Argentinian newspaper)
La Arena on Sunday (June 9, 2002) that Maria Alejandra
Veralli had filed a complaint after receiving a telephone
call from her sister (Sra. Echevez--J.T.) discussing the
fact that the deaths of the five cows had been
ascertained, and some of them were missing vital organs."
       "The police undertook the pertinent action and
reported the event to the Second Duty Court.
Subsequently, for reasons of jurisdiction, the police
report was forwarded to the Cuchillo Co Sheriff's Office,
given that the field (crime scene) is located at the
intersection of Provincial Highways 28 and 13."
       "The weekend's finds were added to the rest of the
area's cases, which have kept police and veterianrians on
edge.  This includes mutilated cows found in Salliquelo"
in Buenos Aires province "and in fields at Macachan,
Bernasconi, Jacinto Arauz, Villa Iris and General Acha" in
La Pampa province.
       "In all of these cases, the animals had been rendered
bloodless and presented incisions made by high-precision
instruments which are unknown to the police conducting the
investigation.  The shroud of mystery is further thickened
by the fact that in the hours prior to one of these
discoveries, strange lights were seen in the vicinity."
       And near the city of Santa Rosa, "it is a strange
event close to home: the dead cows lacking organs and
blood," cases "which have flourished throughout the (La
Pampa) province and astounded many without any
explanations having been found for such a singular
phenomenon."
       "Four animals near Santa Rosa had their turn now, and
not only did the Provincial Police become involved but
professionals from the Universidad Nacional de La Pampa,
who offered to perform (post-mortem) analyses."
       "Yesterday (Wednesday, June 12, 2002), it was learned
that there was another case in addition to the one
reported by La Arena on Tuesday (June 11) and with more
spectacular details: in a field belonging to the Stock
Capella family, located at Kilometer 126 on Provincial
Highway 14, scant kilometers from Toay, a heifer was found
with a large portion of its head burned off 'as if by
fire' and the animal's sexual organs removed 'as if by
surgery.'"
(Editor's Note: Unlike other nations in Latin America,
Argentina had significant numbers of immigrants from UK
and Italy.  It's common to see family surnames of English
or Italian origin.)
       "'The boss said he didn't want to see it because it
gave him the chills. I brought people to see it, since I
couldn't believe it.  I wanted others to see that this
isn't normal,' said Jose Ibarra, still showing signs of
the amazement he felt at finding a dead steer on Saturday
(June 1, 2002)," at the estancia "Las Tranqueras" (ranch)
"on Highway 14 in the vicinity of La Arana, owned by Luis
Stock Capella."
       "On that Saturday, doing his morning tour of
inspection, he found a 400-kilogram steer dead, missing
several organs but astonishingly intact, without a trace
of blood or any tracks whatsoever."
       "'When I found it, there was a circle of yellow grass
measuring some 20 meters (66 feet in diameter).  What drew
my attention the most was the color of that grass.  I
surveyed the field to see if there were any signs of
people or cars, and I found nothing.  Here you have to
drive in along (close to) the house, and there are no
tracks...or you have to come in by air,'" Ibarra said.
       "But it isn't just the animal flesh and muscles,
neighbors and other witnesses in the case claim having
seen 'the strangest lights in the sky, which look like
UFOs--unidentified flying objects--and burnt holes around
the (dead) heifer.'"
       Santa Rosa's first case "was in the San Jorge field
in the Campo Lagos region some 18 kilometers (11 miles) to
the northwest and according to police sources both cases
occurred the same day."
       "Owner Claudio Ferrerro found a nine-month-old cow
dead 11 days ago (i.e. on June 1, 2002--J.T.).  This
Monday (June 10, 2002), he found that its face and neck
were missing flesh and its sexual organs had been
removed."
       ""The site was visited yesterday (Wednesday, June 12,
2002) by police officers from Regional Unit 1, along with
a team from the Criminology Division.  Heading the group
was Sheriff Hector Garcia, and the officer in charge of
the criminology team, Nestor Garcia (no relation--J.T.)."
       "They found that the animal's face was missing its
muscles, along with the musculature of all the neck.
Furthermore, a hole was discovered in the animal's
hindquarters through which the genitalia had been
extracted."
       The cow's face "looked as though it had been burned,
and, according to Ferrerro, two strange incisions were
noted, one on one ear and the other on the neck."
       "It became known on Wednesday (June 12, 2002) that
several cows had been founded dead on mysterious
circumstances in fields of the Rivera and Macachan
regions.  The cows showed incisions and the removal of
organs."
       "One of the new cases in the hitherto-unexplained
wave of cattle deaths was recorded last weekend (June 8
and 9, 2002) on the property owned by the Diez family in
Arano, located 20 kilometers (12 miles) from Rivera.  On
Wednesday, the landowner's son showed La Arena a videotape
and related his experiences."
       "'My father found the dead animal last Saturday (June
8, 2002) and discussed it in the afternoon upon his
return.  He immediately went back out with a friend and
saw that it had several strange incisions whose edges
showed signs of intense heat which (had) cauterized the
wounds.'"
       "According to the young man, and to what appears on
the videotape, the cow presents a perfectly round arch
around its ocular cavity, from which the eyeball was
completely missing.  It also had incisions upon the upper
and lower maxilla.  The tongue had been cut out 'with
signs of high temperature.'"
       "Another incision began in the abdominal area and
progressed toward the tail, where it was perfectly skinned
back, revealing the absence of mammary glands,
reproductive organs, anus and intestines."
       A veterinarian "informed the Diez family that the
animal's left ear had been cleanly cut away with signs of
heat manipulation."
       "Another strange case was recorded on the property of
cattleman Pedro Miller, located 15 kilometers (9 miles)
southeast of Macachan."
       "The animal--a red heifer--was found in a strange
position: spread out on its four legs.  It also displayed
the customary incisions in the mouth area and the ears."
       "Finally, a new case emerged last week in a field
belonging to the Kuderschmidt family, some 15 kilometers
(9 miles) south of Rivera, where the strange events
affected three steers."
       The following day, Thursday, June 13, 2002, "ten dead
animals were found in a field near Rio Colorado, missing
the tongues, eyes and udders and showing no signs of
having bled.  There were no tracks whatsoever in sight.
Officials have not offered an explanation."
       "In Guatrache, the dead animal found Thursday
afternoon (June 13, 2002) was an Aberdeen Angus steer,
missing its left eye, the front half of its tongue, its
left ear, anus and rectum, and featured a circular cut in
its abdomen and another on the left flank."
       "Within the wave of mutilated cattle found with their
organs missing was a 20-month-old steer found on the
property of Luis Cano, located 7 kilometers (4 miles) east
of Guatrache on Provincial Highway 24."
       "Yesterday morning (Thursday, June 13, 2002)
personnel from the Guatrache Sheriff's Office reported to
the site where the animal was found dead, accompanied by
veterinarian Alberto Blanco."
       "'The circles were perfect,' mentioned an official of
the Sheriff's Office, reporting on the case. 'The
incisions were made with a peculiar instrument which
cauterized as it cut, avoiding bleeding,' he added."
       "'The animal had blood inside it, but not a drop on
the ground.  On one of its flanks, the animal had a circle
measuring 7 centimeters (3 inches) without hair, as though
it had been shaved, but its skin was neither burned nor
cut.'"
       Argentina's UFO community has also entered the hunt
for the cattle mutilators.
       "Ufologists are holding a skywatch in the countryside
near Ataliva Roca. According to ufologist Oscar Alfredo
Mario, 'Strange lights have been seen at the locations
where the cattle mutilations have occurred.'"
       "'We have eyewitness accounts from local cattlemen
who have seen strange lights at night.  One farmer claims
having seen a vehicle in the rural area of Ataliva Roca
only a few days ago,' Mario reported, 'In areas in which
animals have been found dead, we have reports of strange
lights seen at night.'"
       Nor is this the first time the region has played host
to UFOs.  Mario added, "'At (the town of) Remuco in 1999,
one cattleman claimed to have seen two objects over the
wilderness 43 nights in a row.'"  (We have a lot of
sources for this report, so here they are: La Arena for
June 11, 2002, "Five cows found dead under mysterious
circumstances at Cuchillo Co;" for June 13, 2002, "Two
more cases in Santa Rosa and Toay;" and for June 14, 2002,
"Mystery in La Pampa over mutilated cattle."  Also the
newspaper La Nueva Provincia of Bahia Blanca for June 15,
2002, "A new case in La Adela."  Also the newspaper El
Diario de La Pampa for June 15, 2002, "Cow mutilated in
bizarre fashion at La Arana" and "Strange lights occur at
mutilation sites."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales,
Gloria Coluchi y Proyecto Catent para todos esos articulos
de diario.)
(Editor's Comment: So here we have a major Fortean news
event.  As usual, it is reported only in Argentina and
nowhere else in the world.  And they say we don't have a
controlled global media.  Right!)


TUVPO CHALLENGES RECENT
UFO SIGHTINGS IN TURKEY

       TUVPO, the Turkish research organization that
investigates anomalous phenomena, has challenged the UFO
sightings reported in Istanbul and Antalya last week.
       On May 26, 2002, Saffet Sap, 42, and his sister,
Serpil Sap, videotaped a UFO over the Anadolu Hisari
section of Istanbul, the largest city in Turkey.  But Erol
Erkmen, director of TUVPO, insists that the videotape is a
fraud.
       "Even though it was a new camera, the shot was
published in black and white," Erkmen stated on Thursday,
June 13, 2002, adding that TUVPO "determined that the shot
was inverted and that it does not show the colour and
density of the sky at that time (Istanbul at 6:30 p.m.--
J.T.).  And also it was determined that the image of the
flying object was extremely enlarged during the editing of
the film" and "is a deformed silhouette, so anyone can
suggest their own imaginary guesses by watching the
video."
       "It is clearly observed that after the invertation
process (negative-positive--E.E.) the vision had
transformed into the colour and density of the sky at 6:30
p.m., and the object (UFO) is Venus," he added in a
written statement.  "The special markings on the tape are
signs of the falsification in the original footage from
many tries, and the published view (result--J.T.) is not
the original footage."
       Erkmen stated that he also doubted the validity of
last week's report of a UFO landing in Antalya, a seaport
city in southern Turkey.
       At Antalya, 45 people reported seeing a UFO pass over
the city.  Three children--Murat Esici, Zeynep Cipinar and
Malan Donmez--reported that the saucer had landed in the
backyard of the Fatima Pirilti Primary School and that
they saw "an alien being getting out of the unusual
craft."
       The alien was described as 1.8 meters (6 feet) tall,
humanoid in appearance, "with a large head and red eyes."
(See UFO Roundup, Volume 7, Number 24 for June 11, 2002,
"Aliens land at a school in southern Turkey," page 1.)
       The Antalya landing, Erkmen stated, "was an event
which was sent to the media by a group named UFO Avcisi
(Turkish for UFO Hunters--J.T.), who published by TVs
(appeared on Turkish television--J.T.)  The children told
different stories on TV, and they were laughing at the
same time."
       "The National Observatory is located in Antalya," he
added, "There are also foreign scientists residing at the
observatory, which has a 150-centimeter telescope.  No
evidence was found in the area which the UFO report
claimed, nor in the observations executed by local police
and scientists.  The National Observatory explained
scientifically that it could be a meteor."  (Many thanks
to Erol Erkmen of TUVPO for this news story.)


DISC-SHAPED UFO SIGHTED
NIGHTLY OVER SRI LANKA

       On Sunday, June 9, 2002, "a disc-shaped UFO passed
overhead at 10:30 p.m., There was only one witness.  Its
colour was white."  The incident took place in Sri Lanka,
an island nation in the Indian Ocean.  The UFO passed over
the ancient city of Polonnaruwa, in north central Sri
Lanka, about 40 kilometers (25 miles) northeast of
Colombo, the national capital.
       The sighting was reported on the morning newscast on
Monday, June 10, 2002, by Television Rupavahini in
Colombo, reported Nalaka, UFO Roundup's correspondent in
Sri Lanka.
       According to the Times of India, "Sri Lanka is dizzy
over aliens after some villagers and a journalist spotted
an unidentified flying object (UFO) in the north central
town of Polonnaruwa, but visionary space scientist Sir
Arthur Clarke has played down the local X-Files episode."
       "The unusually glimmering flying object was first
spotted by a farmer in Polonnaruwa, but its presence was
also confirmed by several others in the area, including a
television journalist.  The object had been seen over Sri
Lankan skies for nearly a week and eventually prompted the
Sri Lankan Air Force to investigate the matter, the
reports added."
       "Polonnaruwa is the ancient Sri Lankan capital and a
popular tourist attraction because it houses many rare
historical ruins dating back to the First Century A.D.  A
team of astrophysicists--led by Dr. Chandana Jayaratne of
the University of Colombo--has also started studying the
Sri Lankan sky to determine what the object is."
       "But for the internationally-reknowned author of
several books on the subject, Sir Arthur Clarke, all the
hype appears to be largely uninvited."
       "'I wish I will one day be able to meet a visiting
alien, but I don't for a moment agree that aliens are
visiting the Earth in UFOs, making secret appearances and
contacting a handful of human beings,' Clarke said in a
statement, 'We need to discern enthralling science fiction
from science fact.'"  (See the Times of India for June 17,
2002, "UFO in Lanka?  Clarke says no way."  Many thanks to
Nalaka, Raaj and John Hayes for this report.)


UFO WITH FLASHING LIGHTS
SEEN NEAR STROOD, KENT

       On Monday, June 10, 2002, "at around 11:30 p.m.," a
family staying aboard their boat at the Hoo Marina on the
river Medway, near Rochester and Strood, Kent, UK saw
"travelling from east to west, either on purpose or
coincidentally following the river," a brightly-lit UFO.
       "We are moored in Hoo Marina, and it went right over
the top of us," the witnesses reported.
       "Estimated by my mother, who was the one who saw it
at close range, it was around one-and-a-half times the
size of our vessel, which itself is almost 50 feet (15
meters) in length."
       "Loud helicopter noises were preceding it.  To my
ear, it sounded like several craft.  The object of
interest had no discernable sound.  Certainly not a jet.
Flying at treetop level, it should have been extremely
loud."  But the UFO made no sound.
       The object "took two minutes to go into the near-
distance, at which point it hovered for approximately one
minute, and then carried on.  Very bright white lights on
each corner.  Each was flashing in synchronisation, at
half-second intervals.  Especially at leading part and
centre (we estimated same magnitudes) with both rear
corners (of the triangular UFO--J.T.) being in turn far
brighter than the many small white lights which made up
the outline.  Strangely, none of these lights seemed to
illuminate either the ground or cast any reflection on its
own surface."
       "Object was either black or dark, though, if the
latter, certainly not light enough to be seen as grey in
colour.  Main lights were flashing, although no beam
effects were noticed at all."
       "Our Dobermann (pinscher) dog was agitated and on
edge during the time of the helicopters appearing,
although he is usually fairly anxious about such sounds.
My radio and computer were unaffected before and after the
event."  (Many thanks to Eric Adams and Chris Rolfe of UFO
Monitors-East Kent for this report.)


GROUPS OF YELLOW-ORANGE
UFOs SPOTTED OVER VIENNA

       On Saturday, June 15, 2002, at midnight, eyewitness
Michael N. and his friend Steve were sitting in a third-
floor flat in the Hietzing section of Vienna, the capital
of Austria, when they noticed a strange glow beyond the
window.
       "We saw maybe 20 of these gleaming objects from the
window of our room on the third floor," Michael reported,
"It was approximately midnight when we saw them.  They
went in groups from the ground into the sky.  First they
moved quite fast, then they stood still in the sky, and
then they moved again.  And we also heard several loud
booms!"
       Michael described the UFOs as "yellow-orange round
glowing objects, very fast-moving" as they "went up into
the sky."  (Email Form Report) (Editor's Comment:  This is
the second UFO report the Roundup has gotten from that
section of Vienna.  Is there some kind of UFO parking
garage under the ground in Hietzing?)


UFOs SKIM OVER THE
SUBURBS OF TORONTO

       On Friday, May 24, 2002, at 4 p.m., Tony Dickson "was
sitting on the back deck" of his home in Brampton,
Ontario, Canada (population 268,251), a suburb six miles
(10 kilometers) west of Toronto, "just west of Highway 10,
just slightly north of the Williams Parkway," when he saw
a UFO approach from the north.
       "While sitting on my back deck, looking northeast, I
spotted a jet way up, about 30,000 feet (9,000 meters),
and directly below it at several thousand feet
(approximately 10,000 feet (3,000 meters) at a guess--
T.D.) a silver, reflective, cone-shaped object" that
"traveled from north to south at an extremely fast speed,
faster than normal jet speeds," he reported, "It was
reflecting bright silver to dull.  It was very clear,
although the bright sunlight was behind me.  I wonder if
anyone else has seen this other than my wife and I."
(Email Form Report)
       On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 11:30 p.m., Sean
Johnston was walking home from the movies in Oshawa,
Ontario (population 134,364) when "a UFO came in front of
me, then turned and went to the left.  I was walking home
from a movie when I saw this UFO."
       Oshawa, Ont. is located about 15 miles (25
kilometers) east of Toronto, which is Canada's largest
city.  (Email Form Report)


STRANGE SPHERE WASHES
ASHORE IN SOUTH CAROLINA

       "Authorities are investigating a mysterious silver
orb that washed up on the South Carolina coast."
       "They haven't been able to identify the object and
say its only features are a series of numbers painted on
it."
       "The 3-foot (0.9-meter) diameter orb is being
examined by a number of maritime experts who think it may
belong to a ship."
       "NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration (NOAA) haven't been able to help identify
it."
       "Experts think it could be a flotation device used by
a dredging ship but say it doesn't look like one."
       "Marie Segnera, whose family found the object near
their Isle of Palms beach house, said, 'They thought it
was a giant beach ball--they were going to bring it in.
They swam out and said it was a very heavy ball--it was
metal, had numbers on it--and there was no way they were
bringing it in.'"
       "Isle of Palms, S.C. Fire Chief Ann Graham said,
'We're calling it a UFO--unidentified floating object.'"
       Isle of Palms (population 4,581) is located 20 miles
(32 kilometers) east of historic Charleston, South
Carolina.  (See Ananova for June 17, 2002, "Mystery orb
has been dubbed 'unidentified floating object.'  Many
thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this report.)
(Editor's Note:  Charleston was the home port of the CSS
Hunley, the first submarine to sink an enemy warship.  The
Hunley herself went down on her way home from her
successful sinking of the USS Housatonic in February
1864.)
(Editor's Comment:  Maybe the silver orb belonged to the
Nautilus, the fabled Nineteenth Century submarine built by
Captain Nemo and made famous by French science fiction
author Jules Verne.  I just thought of something...what if
the Hunley was deliberately sunk by Captain Nemo!?)


HOLLYWOOD STARS RELATE
UFO EXPERIENCES

       "Men In Black star Will Smith plays an alien hunter
in the movies, but he claims to have had a close encounter
in real life!"
       "He's convinced he saw a pair of UFOs flying above a
California desert 10 years ago.  'They were not man-made,'
insists Smith, whose MIB sequel premieres July 3 (2002).
'They dashed across the horizon at unbelievable speeds.'"
       "Smith, who played boxing legend Muhammad Ali in the
film Ali, isn't the only celeb convinced that UFOs are
real.  In fact, the champ himself is a believer."
       "'If you look into the sky in the early morning
hours,' says Ali, "you can see them playing tag between
the stars.'"
       "Beam William Shatner up--Star Trek's Captain Kirk
says aliens saved his life after his motorbike broke down,
leaving him lost and stranded in the Mojave Desert (of
southern California--J.T.).  'A shimmering figure led me
to a road so I could get help,' Shatner says, 'Then he
disappeared and a shining, orb-style object zoomed off at
high speed.'"
       "Movie Ghostbuster Dan Aykroyd swears he saw
something strange in his neighborhood a few years back.
'I was in Massachusetts and saw two objects tracking at
about 10,000 feet (3,000 meters), doing amazing
maneuvers,' he reveals, 'I am convinced they were UFOs.'"
       "The truth is out there for X-Files supernatural
sleuth David Duchovny--he claims he saw a triangular UFO
while jogging along a New Jersey beach in 1993.  'I don't
know what it was,' he admits, 'I don't think I ever
will.'"
       "Grease star Olivia Newton-John once spotted a
multicolored globe in her native Australia.  She adds, 'It
could change direction like no plane I'd ever seen.'"
       "And (rock star) David Bowie saw many UFOs while
growing up in Kent, England.  'They came over so
regularly,' he recalls, 'we could time them.'" (See the
tabloid Globe for June 18, 2002, "Spaced-out stars believe
in UFOs," page 59.)


  From the UFO Files...

1881: MYSTERIOUS BOOMS
            HEARD IN TUNISIA

       One of the strangest cases of "mysterious sky booms"
on record took place in North Africa on June 17, 1881.
       That day, Ishaq al-Taabi was seated in the courtyard
of the Mosque of Sidi Driss in Gabes, a seaport city in
what is now Tunisia.  With his fellow students, Ishaq was
listening to the imam Mohammed al-Aziz al-Ghassani discuss
verses from al-Quran (the Koran).  It was a typical sunny
June morning at the habou (Islamic school similar to a
madrassa in Pakistan--J.T.).  Suddenly, an earsplitting
explosion drowned out the imam's words.
       "What was that!?" a student shouted.
       Before anyone could reply, a series of multiple
booms, "sounds like cannonading," followed, and even the
imam jumped to his feet.
       "They're shelling the city!" Hassan Bin Ahmad
shouted.
       Oblivious to the imam's warnings to be careful,
Ishaq, Hassan and the other teenaged boys scrambled out of
the courtyard and rushed through the souk (marketplace--
J.T.)  They found shocked, puzzled and frightened adults
milling around.  Weaving their way through the crowd, the
boys headed southeast to the Oued Gabes River, intent on
getting a look at the "foreign fleet" they thought was
bombarding their city.
       Suddenly, the boys were knocked off their feet by an
earth tremor.  The cry went up from the souk.
"Earthquake!"  But Ishaq and his friends pressed on,
racing through the narrow crooked streets.
       "That quaking of the earth was felt, at intervals of
32 seconds, lasting about six minutes," reported a French
scientist living in Gabes at the time.
       By the time the final tremor subsided, Ishaq and his
schoolmates were at the river, looking east towards the
Mediterranean Sea.  But there were no gun flashes, no
clouds of coal-fired smoke, no European battleships
offshore, just a few lateen-rigged boats belonging to
Tunisian fishermen.
       The mystery of the 1881 "sky booms" was never solved.
(See the book New Lands by Charles Fort, Boni and
Livewright Inc., New York, N.Y., 1923, page 126.  Also the
French periodical La Nature, 17-126 for 1881.)


       That's it for this week.  Join us next time for more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from all around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in news groups provided that
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 22

                          Re: Scoop Marks? - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:22:50 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:02:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Scoop Marks? - Acres


 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scoop Marks?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:28:20 -0500
 >>Subject: Scoop Marks?

 >>My wife recently healed from a prolonged bout with a terrible
 >>skin rash that covered her face, arms and legs. There were many
 >>treatments over the course of at least one year. Among many
 >>other treatments, she finally ended up getting injections of
 >>steroids and antibiotics into each infected area.

 >>About a week later, and as she said, "over night", she developed
 >>a dime-size scoop mark, about 1/4 inch deep, on her left forearm.
 >>This dimple literally appeared in less than 48 hours.
 ><snip>


 >I, too, developed a "scoop mark" after an encounter.
 >Mine is on my leg; but mine showed first as an
 >"injury" that wouldn't heal.  It is triangular in
 >shape and about 1/2 inch.  I am not diabetic, I was
 >checked.  But it took several weeks to heal and the
 >doctors didn't know why.  But, I most definitely have
 >the "scoop" and very strong memories of where it came
 >from.


Hi Jean, thanks for posting! :) You've got guts! :)

Do you have a picture online that we may study it, please? I
find the whole subject both frightening & fascinating! I've been
to alien jigsaw before, a great site! I feel deep sympathy to
all abductees!

It really is the dark side of ufology and most people get scared
just contemplating it!

Mentally, it's easier for me to pretend there must be other
explainations! But I don't believe there is & there are too many
of you with identical marks both physical & emotional.

I am a believer, even though I've never knowingly seen a UFO or
an Alien! I have had some weird dreams since I was a child
though, & some hints of minor psychic abilities through
premonitions etc. But this does seem to run in the family!
However, if I ever meet a hypnotist, I'd love to be regressed!

You are very brave & I believe you & I, for one, am always
willing to hear your account, if you wish to tell it! As a
humanist I believe it's my duty! This applies to you too Bill, &
any other abductees out there!






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   Jun > Jun 22

                            Re: Blimps - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:51:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:06:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Lehmberg


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:42:28 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:53:49 +1000
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:11:39 -0300
 >>>Subject: Re: Blimps

<snip>

 >Take the UFO question out of the equation and there's still some
 >answers missing. If indeed people were injured, one would think
 >that someone would have had to answer for it. Now I know these
 >were different times and there was a war on, but where's the
 >wrap-up report?

Isn't it interesting that taking the UFO out of the equation
really gives those "missing answers" a quality they wouldn't
have had otherwise? Enemy attack was not taking place, clearly,
but the guns ripped up the skys, regardless! Panic is panic...
ok, ok, ok! But after some frenzied firing at 'nothing', some
smart PFC with a little college is going to ask the Sarge what
the hell he's shooting at. Taking the UFO out of the question
somehow firmly thrusts the UFO back into the equation. Was that
too abtruse?

 >I realise that there was hysteria involved but some cooler heads
 >must have prevailed and someone probably wrote it up.

There would have had to have been _substantive_ accounting,
forgetting there was a _lot_ of money shot off directly over a
populated area.

 >Here on the East Coast of Canada during the war we had ferry
 >boats sunk by U-boats - in the St. Lawrence. Germans pulled from
 >the North Atlantic after their U-boat was sunk had theatre
 >ticket stubs from the Paramount movie theatre here in Halifax in
 >their trouser pockets.

 >RCN Destroyers and convoy vessels were sunk not far from the
 >mouth of Halifax Harbour in 1940-43.

 >Most families in this area had someone they'd lost on a
 >transport vessel in convoy when they were being sunk in great
 >numbers not far from our shores. Still the people here didn't
 >fold from hysteria - and I suspect that they didn't do that
 >in LA, either.

I agree with you, sir. Another example is Orson Well's Mars
Invasion scare. Measured in death (a suicide and a heart attack
I believe) and property damage (none that I'm aware of) the
hysteria was nowhere near what it would have been had they
actually been invaded by, say, the Japanese. We're made of
sterner stuff, _tough_ monkeys who will stop running if a look
over our shoulder indicates there's nothing chasing, and _like_
monkeys, curious after that. I suspect what you suspect.

 >If anything, it was more likely a chance to fire off some rounds
 >and break the boredom than hysteria.

 >Think what happened after 9/11. I remember seeing cases where
 >they were finding terrible security breaches at airports -
 >especially Logan International - despite the government
 >hammering home the fact that they had to seal up their airports.
 >It takes a long time to get people whipped up and into a frenzy
 >- unless of course - they are at a soccer match.

Professional sports: a planned manipulation of the masses by the
non elected leadership -- a judicious metering to them the only
truth that it will allow them to know. The game's actual score,
the unquestionable 'fact' or collection of 'facts' regarding a
'ball' that moved from 'here' to 'there', and was measured. If
your eyes are on the playing field, they are not in the
starfield... There's a concerted effort to get people whipped up
at a 'santioned' gaming event, there's nothing sensible from the
leadership of _any_ striperegarding that which is _not_ a game
or other smoke and mirrors, or anything most people would be -
really- interested in -- like what's flying over my freaking
house...!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.






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   Jun > Jun 22

                           Re: Mantell - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:09:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Hamilton


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:54:24 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>I know the Mantell case and know he was about to fly by. The
 >>pilot on the ground I referred to was not Mantell, but
 >>supposedly a witness. It turns out this witness did not believe
 >>in UFOs and was certain later that Mantell was chasing a balloon
 >>that looked disk-like.

 >>I am still not convinced that Mantell was 'closing' on a
 >>balloon.

 >You should be. There is no reason to believe the object was
 >anything else. When I studied the case in order to reconstruct
 >it for my encyclopedia, I was surprised at how weak the case is
 >and how much was made of it. Frankly, it's disheartening at this
 >late date to see efforts to resurrect it, when there is no
 >shortage of far stronger, more puzzling reports far more worthy
 >of our attention.

I am sure there is, but what makes the identification of
Mantell's object of pursuit a skyhook balloon so strong? I have
not yet seen the statement supported by facts indicating the
release of the skyhook in that vicinity, when, where, and other
data. I have never seen strong evidence it was a UFO either. I
guess what makes the case so dramatic was his plane crash.

 >One problem is that some apparently genuine UFO sightings
 >occurred that same evening, to the West in Ohio, and these often
 >get conflated, unjustifiably, into the Mantell saga. Please
 >check out my account in the encyclopedia or in the paperback
 >abridgement, The UFO Book, if you have either in your library.

I will check it out. Perhaps you have the facts gathered there.
I was not aware of the sightings that evening in Ohio. What was
characteristic about these that compelled you to think they were
genuine UFOs (or TrUFOs as Dr. Maccabee calls them)?

Bill H






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               Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:11:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hamilton


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:09:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco2002@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:55:46 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Meiners

 >>>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>To All Abductees on the List:

 >>I noticed that all responses came from women abductees and I
 >>know that there are many men lurkers who are abductees also;
 >>but, they don't post here also and for the same reasons.... snip
 >>Who wants to be ridiculed? Not me. Very understandable.


 >Before I reply, I would like to thank Errol for posting this to
 >the UpDates List. I also want to thank Gildas Bourdais, Richard
 >Hall, Alfred Lehmberg, Stephen Bassett and Jean Meiners for your
 >comments. Although somewhat different, you were all supportive
 >and you seem to understand well the feelings we were trying to
 >express. I know the abductees who participated will appreciate
 >your comments as well.

 >Regarding Meiners comments: I did include three male abductees
 >on my list for the original question as to why they do not post.
 >One told me he "...didn't really know what to say and who would
 >care anyway?" and the other two did not respond at all.

 >I wonder if this could be interpreted to mean that male
 >abductees in general, may have a more difficult time going
 >public with this subject? I do not know the answer to that, but
 >I know there are a lot of male abductees we do not hear from and
 >I hope that changes soon.

 >In addition, three men responded to me off-list who said they
 >did not feel comfortable responding to my post publicly because
 >of the way their comments would be taken by others. And, two of
 >these men, as far as I know, are not even abductees. Something
 >to think about perhaps?

While not an abductee in the usual sense, I have had two
experiences that seem to resemble in all ways the abduction or
visitation experience and I do not know what to make of it and
refrain from saying much about them because of my own doubts on
the matter. I am sure there are others who have had such
doubts.

One thing I have not had doubt on is interaction during
sightings which occurred when I was a teenager and there were
witnesses. That was when I became convinced communication was
possible. This was in two forms: light-beam transceiver and
telepathic. It is what really motivated me to study and
investigate the phenomena a long time ago. However, even this
type of experience is treated with extreme skepticism and I can
understand that. It just never occurred to me when I was young
that experimenting with this type of communication and obtaining
positive results would not be something anyone rushed to
replicate for themselves. Experiments I have tried in the last
decade or so have yielded no result.

-Bill Hamilton







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   Jun > Jun 22

                    Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Murray

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@cogeco.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:21:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:13:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Murray


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

<snip>

 >PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

 >GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
 >medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
 >Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.
 >At 10:00 PM, the witnesses noticed that lights or stars were
 >moving around the sky past a tall lookout tower. "The object
 >appeared to be a star moving at first in a straight line for
 >several inches (if you held a 12" ruler at arm's length) that
 >then would stop, then accelerate foreword three times in short
 >bursts. They then made a zigzag pattern at incredible speeds."
 >He said, "My girlfriend also saw it, but did not want to believe
 >that it might be a UFO. I am an electrician from Pittsburgh,
 >and yes both of us were sober. Thanks to Peter Davenport at the
 >National UFO Reporting Center, http://www.ufocenter.com. >>

 >George, List:

 >This is obviously a garden veriety example of >autokinetic motion
 >of the eye muscles. For an example, go >outside tonight as soon
 >as it's dark and if the sky is clear look to the >West for
 >brilliant Venus. Stare at it for a minute or so >and you will see
 >the famous "falling leaf effect" of the last Allen >Hynek. For
 >moving aircraft of satellites, this often appears >as though the
 >object just stops, or sometimes reverses >direction.


Howdy Mr. Young & All,

I've been looking up into the sky since my childhood, and not
once have I ever seen or experienced this "autokinetic motion"
which you keep bringing up. Maybe your eyes work differently
than mine.

The only thing that I've noticed is that now I'm in my 40's I
need to either wear my glasses or look through binoculars in
order to check anything out in detail. Otherwise the stars
remain stationary and fixed, as they should. The only things I
see moving around up there are usually airplanes or satellites,
or the occasional shooting star.

My one UFO sighting involved an object which vanished in front
of my eyes after collapsing into a tiny dot first, like an old
TV set shutting off. That was no aircraft from this world, and
it wasn't "autokinetic motion" either.


Take care,

Marty Murray






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   Jun > Jun 22

                           A Canadian Mars Lander

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:25:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:15:18 -0400
Subject: A Canadian Mars Lander


Hi everyone!

Canadian astronaut Marc Garneau (he has flown in space three
times) and now President of the Canadian Space Agency spoke at
York Univeristy on Tuesday, June 18. He reviewed Canada's past
accomplishments and talked about the present and future goals.
Although the CSA budget is only $300,000,000 a year and a small
fraction of NASA's or the European Space Agency (which Canada is
an associate member), it is planning some very ambitious and
important space missions, including a lander/rover to look for
water and study the soil and atmopshere of Mars. Below is public
talk about one of these CSA Mars missions which will be given
here at York U. this coming Monday.

Other proposed Mars missions include a high resolution radar
satellite similar to RADARSAT 2 (which our U.S. neighbours
didn't want us to launch or to share the data with anyone since
it can see people on the ground even in the dark of night and
though thick cloud cover too) and a Martian soil sample return
(for those who can't wait, I can share some photos Conway took
of a suspected Martian meteroite that we saw at GSC in Ottawa
earlier this year).

Nick


                     YORK UNIVERSITY
                DEPARTMENT OF PHYSICS AND ASTRONOMY

                       COLLOQUIUM

               Space Engineering Candidate

                   Brendan M. Quine
                The Northern Light Team
        Thoth Technology and University of Toronto

Northern Light - A Canadian Mars Lander: A Mission Overview

                        ABSTRACT

The Canadian Space Agency (CSA) has identified the exploration
of Mars as a key theme in its space-exploration program. We are
developing a small Canadian lander and rover system to assist in
the international effort to explore Mars and to provide niche
science using Canadian technology. Our first launch opportunity
will be as part of Artemis, a proposed multi-lander NASA Scout
mission, for launch to Mars in 2007. The Artemis mission
proposes to explore the Martian surface and atmosphere using
three lander probes complemented by orbital measurements.

Northern Light is a complete entry, descent and landing system
equipped with sophisticated scientific instruments and
experiments. This Canadian Mars lander will complement the two
proposed American landers, providing extensive new scientific
information on the Martian surface, subsurface and atmosphere.
Northern Light will be developed by a public-private consortium
of organisations led by Thoth Technology.

Our lander-science goals will include the search for water, the
investigation of the atmosphere and radiative balance, the
search for life and preparation for a sample-return mission. In
combination with a proposed Canadian orbiting instrument, MARGO
(Mars Aerosol and Radiative Gas Observer), we will be able to
measure the Martian atmosphere from the surface and from an
orbiting platform. The approach will provide local and global
coverage capability as well as the opportunity to cross-validate
the two measurement sets, mirroring the approach used to observe
Earth's atmosphere.

In this paper we discuss the Northern Light concept and present
an overview of the proposed mission. We describe our system, the
instrumentation and the science objectives we hope to achieve.

DATE:              Monday, June 24, 2002
TIME:              10:15 am
LOCATION:          Room 317, Petrie Science Building

Refreshments will be served at 10:00 am in Room 315, Petrie
Science Building.







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   Jun > Jun 22

                    Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Filer

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:35:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:19:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Filer


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 ><snip>

 >>PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

 >>GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
 >>medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
 >>Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.
 >>At 10:00 PM, the witnesses noticed that lights or stars were
 >>moving around the sky past a tall lookout tower. "The object
 >>appeared to be a star moving at first in a straight line for
 >>several inches (if you held a 12" ruler at arm's length) that
 >>then would stop, then accelerate foreword three times in short
 >>bursts. They then made a zigzag pattern at incredible speeds."
 >>He said, "My girlfriend also saw it, but did not want to believe
 >>that it might be a UFO. I am an electrician from Pittsburgh,
 >>and yes both of us were sober. Thanks to Peter Davenport at the
 >>National UFO Reporting Center, http://www.ufocenter.com.


 >George, List:

 >This is obviously a garden veriety example of autokinetic motion
 >of the eye muscles. For an example, go outside tonight as soon
 >as it's dark and if the sky is clear look to the West for
 >brilliant Venus. Stare at it for a minute or so and you will see
 >the famous "falling leaf effect" of the last Allen Hynek. For
 >moving aircraft of satellites, this often appears as though the
 >object just stops, or sometimes reverses direction.

You may be right, but the video camera on the space shuttle
video tapes the same thing at 250 miles above the Earth passing
other stars. Then they stop and hover over the thunderstorms.


Regards,

George Filer





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   Jun > Jun 22

              Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Moretllaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:08:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:25:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Moretllaro


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:42:02 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:58:38 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >>>Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>>To All:

 >>>Over the past year or so I have been wanting to ask several of
 >>>my abductee/experiencer friends and acquaintances why they do
 >>>not post to the UFO UpDates List.

 ><snip>

 >>>---------------

 >><snip>

 >>What about, if EBK approves, having two lists - UFOs and
 >>Abductees? The two topics could still come together on the
 >>SDI show itself, but perhaps a strictly Abductee List might
 >>not attract as much negativity as the current mixed List?

 >>>From the sound of the non-poster abductees, the traffic would
 >>increase due to more being willing to post, so would you, Errol,
 >>have enough time to accommodate the two separated lists?

 >Hello Eleanor:

 >Apart from the extra burden on EBK and inevitable complications,
 >I think your idea has certain merits.

 >A subscriber could lurk on one list, participate in the other
 >while monitoring both.

 >Occasionally, when the subject matter affects UFO sightings
 >_and_ abductees, he or she could post to both lists.

 >If there is some unwelcome thread brewing on one List, the other
 >may well proceed un-encumbered. Hmmm..

Hello Larry and Eleanor ... EBK,

I hate to disagree with a fello Grippler, but I do. This List
consists of researchers who should be hearing about what is
happening in the abduction community. That is their purpose
in'it? To keep informed? Or is it to commisserate with each
other on the state of ufology only amongst themselves?

In the last book I read, there was just that one, I lerned that
in order to communicate, the act required that the information
flow two ways. Just lurking points to nothing. Communicating
points to understanding.

Just my opinion.

And by the by, I have not forgotten the "foccacio" affair. Just
as a communique' between the Palermians and the Dublinians, I
shall perform my diplomatic duties and send a loaf of same to
Mr. Hatcher. I just gotta make the trip to Little Palermo and
that's a bit of a schlep.


Best regards,

Jim






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   Jun > Jun 22

                      Re: American Civil War Sighting?

From: Karl Rotstan <karl.rotstan@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:21:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:28:08 -0500
Subject: Re: American Civil War Sighting?


Greetings All,

While reading 'A Rising Thunder' by Richard Wheeler (1994,
Harper Perennial, ISBN 0-06-09222612-0), I came upon the
following passage referring to what seems to be a UFO sighting
at the beginning of the American Civil War. As I have not seen
reference to this before, I am curious if any of our gentle
Listers might have more information on this. The author of the
passage was Fitz James O'Brien (a well known poet and essayist
of the era), of the 7th New York Regiment commanded by Col.
Marshall Lefferts. The 7th was embarked on the steamer Boston,
en route from Philadelphia to Annapolis on April 21, 1861. The
passage is as follows (p.140):


"[In the evening] a curious phenomenon occurred. Some men in the
regiment... had been singing - with all that delicious effect
that music at sea produces - several of the finest psalms in our
liturgy..... While we were singing, the moon swung clear into the
air, and round her white disk was seen three circles, clear and
distinct - red, white and blue!

The omen was caught by common instinct, and a thousand cheers
went up to that heaven that seemed in its visible signs to
manifest its approval of the cause in which we were about to
fight."


I would be grateful for any further information regarding this
incident.

Best regards,

Karl Rotstan






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   Jun > Jun 22

                          Secrecy News -- 06/21/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:05:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:33:57 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/21/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 56
June 21, 2002


**      SCIENCE AND SECURITY IN THE 21ST CENTURY
**      LEAK OF NSA INTERCEPTS LAMENTED
**      NEW BILLS ON INTELLIGENCE

  SCIENCE AND SECURITY IN THE 21ST CENTURY

"Well-intentioned but poorly engineered security procedures...
are undermining an atmosphere of creativity and innovation" at
the Department of Energy (DOE) national laboratories, according
to a new report prepared for the Secretary of Energy.

The report, entitled "Science and Security in the 21st Century,"
was authored by a Commission of distinguished former government
officials and others led by John J. Hamre of the Center for
Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

The Commission brought a mostly common-sense perspective to bear
on a range of DOE security policies as it considered how to
enhance security while promoting scientific vitality.

"A serious rift has developed between the scientists and the
security professionals, and security will be seriously
undermined if these two communities drift farther apart," the
Commission report said (p. 5).

The 121 page report has much of interest to say on a variety of
topics. A few notable points are these:

**      "Sensitive unclassified information is causing acute
problems at DOE," the Commission found, because it has "no
usable definition," there is "no common understanding of how to
control it," and "no agreement on what significance it has for
U.S. national security" (p. 55).

**      "Security procedures should vary in intensity according to
the level of sensitivity of information, activities, and
materials" (p. 42). This intuitively obvious prescription is
often violated in DOE and elsewhere in government. "In many
laboratories, islands of ultra-sensitivity coexist on site
within larger seas of little-to-no sensitivity."

**      In 1999, DOE declared "zero tolerance" for violations of
security policy-- but this was overkill. "The Commission
believes that a robust security system must include a candid
acknowledgment that human beings do make mistakes" (p. 53).

**      DOE polygraph policy should be revised to make it
comparable to that of the Defense Department, in which polygraph
tests are chiefly used as an investigative tool, and only
sparingly as a screening tool when exceptional program security
is required (p. 62).

The executive summary of "Science and Security in the 21st
Century" is available on the CSIS web site here:

http://www.csis.org/css/ExecSummary.pdf

The Department of Energy's response to the Commission report is
described here:

http://www.energy.gov/HQPress/releases02/junpr/pr02116.htm


LEAK OF NSA INTERCEPTS LAMENTED

The Bush Administration complained to Congress yesterday
following the publication of information about National Security
Agency (NSA) intercepts concerning the September 11 attacks that
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer termed "alarmingly
specific."

"The President was deeply concerned about these leaks,"
Fleischer said. See related excerpts from the June 20 White
House press briefing here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/06/wh062002.html

 >From a distance, it is difficult to assess exactly how
sensitive the disclosure of the two phrases, intercepted and
translated by the NSA, and widely reported in the press on June
20, might be. But there is agreement that the published
information was formally classified. Embarrassed leaders of the
joint intelligence committee investigating September 11 said
they had asked Attorney General Ashcroft to investigate the
leak.

The significance of the intercepts was discussed in "Coded
warnings became clear only in light of Sept. 11 attacks" by Tom
Shane and Ariel Sabar in the June 21 Baltimore Sun:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-te.nsa21jun21.story

Speaking to a gathering of reporters yesterday, Sen. Richard
Shelby, Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,
reminded them that two years ago President Clinton had vetoed
his proposal to criminalize all leaks of classified information.
  Sen. Shelby seemed unaware that the unauthorized disclosure of
NSA intercepts is already prohibited under current law.

Rep. Nancy Pelosi, ranking minority member of the House
Intelligence Committee, defended the veto of Shelby's widely
criticized proposal.

But she went on to suggest the possibility of a new anti-leak
statute.

"I hope that we can work together on legislation this year that
accomplishes the [anti-leak] purpose without some of the
objections that some of us had that will be signed by the
president," Rep. Pelosi said.

Rep. Porter Goss, chair of the House Intelligence Committee,
ruminated on the theme that too much information is classified.

"There is no question in my mind... that we overclassify, we
needlessly classify some things. We err on the side of
classification. In peacetime it seems foolish. In wartime, when
there's a serious threat, it doesn't seem quite so foolish. So
I would say it depends a little bit on your perspective. I would
say generally we have overclassified. There is probably a great
deal of information that should not be classified, that needs to
be declassified," Rep. Goss said.


NEW BILLS ON INTELLIGENCE

Senator Michael DeWine introduced a bill yesterday that would
lower the threshold for counterintelligence surveillance and
search of "non-U.S. persons" under the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act. Instead of requiring "probable cause" that
the person is an agent of a foreign power, surveillance would be
authorized upon a mere showing of "reasonable suspicion." See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s2659.html

Senator Arlen Specter said on June 20 that the President's
proposal for a Department of Homeland Security does not
satisfactorily address the intelligence challenges that the
Department would face. He called for creation of a new National
Terrorism Assessment Center. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s062002.html

Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced a bill on June 19 that would
establish a new Director of National Intelligence to lead the
intelligence community. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s061902.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
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_______________________
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Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 22

                         Bob Lazar - True or False?

From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:41:39 -0500
Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?



By Glenn Campbell

I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

I adore ambiguity, and I really hate being pinned down like
this. I mean, what is truth anyway? My idle-handed colleagues
and I have been researching Lazar's claims since 1992, but I
wasn't there when Lazar first made those claims, and no one can
visit the secure military areas where Lazar's experiences
supposedly took place. Who am I to declare what is and is not
reality?

Still the inquiries keep coming, especially after Lazar's recent
reappearance on Art Bell (June 6, 2002), where he announced yet
another movie deal. The only way to efficiently deal with my
questioners is to come up with a crude one-word answer.

Unfortunately, that answer is False.

I don't mean this as an insult to Mr. Lazar. He's an incredibly
creative and intelligent guy. I also don't mean to denigrate
Lazar's many supporters. One thing I learned while studying Area
51 is that you don't mess with people's religion. Lazar, I
believe, has a right to make his claims, and people have a right
to believe him. Lazar's flying saucers have become part of
Nevada's identity, and probably even my own. I mean "False" only
in a rather mundane factual sense.

Lazar did not work with flying saucers in an underground hangar
near Papoose Lake. He made the story up. Furthermore, he made it
up by himself, without the help of any nefarious agency and
probably without any deep motivation other than the pleasure of
attracting attention and putting people on.

The story evolved out of a long heritage of pre-existing
underground alien base claims, which eventually infected the
pilot and conspiracy theorist John Lear. Lear announced, in
electronic bulletin board posts in the 1980s, that gray aliens
were eating humans in deep underground facilities at Area 51.
Lazar met Lear, heard his ramblings, and decided to give Lear
what he wanted. Lazar took Lear's paranoid delusions and
repackaged them in a much more intelligent and internally
consistent rendition. Initially, Lear was the only audience, but
he tipped off a Las Vegas TV station, and the frenzy began. The
story soon spun out of Lazar's control, and, at least until the
recent Art Bell appearance, Lazar seemed to sincerely want it to
go away.

Lazar's limited knowledge of Area 51 came from secondhand
sources, which are plentiful in Las Vegas. Lazar has never been
to Area 51. His "S-4" is a relocated and reconfigured version
of "Site 4", a real Top Secret radar testing facility west of
Area 51. Lazar's saucers and their propulsion system seem
plausible to anyone without a physics degree. They were
constructed, in Lazar's head, with the same fastidious care that
he has lavished on his real-life fireworks, jet cars and other
mechanical projects. "Element 115" and its peculiar periodic
neighbors were discussed in an article in Scientific American
just before Lazar used it to fuel his craft. Lazar has always
displayed an exceptional respect for detail and consistency, and
he has an extraordinary ability to focus his attention on
whatever his current project is, to the exclusion of everything
else. His only deficiencies are moral (that is, if you consider
lies and the exploitation of others to be somehow 'wrong').

A good model for how Lazar operates is found in the forger Mark
Hoffman, now in prison for murder. There is a recent interview
here:

http://toddshow.org/log/dailylistings/05242002.asp

While forging Mormon documents, Hoffman built a detailed web of
lies that still leaves researchers in awe. Hoffman's forgeries
were internally consistent and perfect in every detail, and they
meshed seamlessly with the world of existing documents, many of
which he also created. His trance-like ability to focus his
attention was so highly developed that he easily fooled
polygraph tests.

Lazar is in the same league, having convinced a hypnotherapist
of his truthfulness and earned at least an "inconclusive"
polygraph report. Lazar might be even more clever than Hoffman,
because he hasn't significantly broken the law, and he strictly
limits his claims to his original story.

You can ask me for proof for my Lazar position, but I'm not
going to play the game anymore. The Lazar documentation on the
internet is already massive, and the heated debates about one
detail or another of Lazar's claims have been going on for over
a decade. It is senseless to harp on his false educational
credentials, enhanced employment claims or pandering conviction.

Those who believe in Lazar are going to continue believing, and
those who don't will only say, "I told you so." The funny thing
about oral traditions like this is that they continue to live
and propagate regardless of the evidence and far beyond their
original source. They spawn new stories, like the similar UFO
claims of Bill Uhouse, aka "Jarod 2" (which is another
fascinating personal journey). Lazar's story has grown much
bigger than Lazar himself, and no one will ever be able to
follow all of its threads.

Answering "False" still rubs me the wrong way. I distain
finality, and I certainly don't want to attract the attention
Lazar's rabid supporters. Instead, I would rather state things
in relative terms: Lazar's claims _could_ be true, like the boy
crying wolf who eventually encounters a real one, but given the
known lies and lack of new information, the joy of exploring the
story has dwindled. Life is full of more interesting mysteries.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 22

                           Re: Mantell - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:53:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:43:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Mantell - Balaskas


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]

<snip>

 >>Earlier I read mention of the aircraft being full of hundreds of
 >>little holes or not full of holes. Either way it's nothing
 >>unusual.

 >>The F-1 one was an aluminum aircraft fastened together with 7-8
 >>thousand flush headed and countersunk rivets - [to lessen
 >>aerodynamic drag - that likely would have pulled their heads
 >>through their aluminum sheeting upon impact.
 >>I think the F-51 spiraled to the ground rather than spun-in
 >>because of the wing separation due to high wing loading forces
 >>and because of the attitude in which it struck the ground.
 >>But that's just my opinion.

<snip>

Hi Don!

You and other readers of UFO UpDates may recall some of the
things I mentioned back in July 2000 about the Mantell UFO
incident which I think are worth mentioning again here.

According to the transcript of a talk given by Wilbert B. Smith
in Ottawa on March 31, 1958, his explanation as to why Mantell's
aircraft came apart was due to "reduced binding". Quoting
briefly some of the less technical details from Smith's talk we
read the following:

"...As nearly as we are able to re-create the accident, Mantell
was pursuing a UFO and was able to get near - in fact, well into
its operating field. His aircraft just fell apart and was
scattered over quite an area. Mantell's body, when removed, was
not displayed even to his next of kin. Several people who have
found themselves close to these objects have remarked on the
insufferable heat which seemed to prevade the general region..."

"...In Mantell's case, the altered field configuration in the
vicinity of the craft reduced the binding forces within the
structure of the aircraft to a value below that of the load
which the parts were supposed to carry. So it just came apart.
Also, there was probably a substantial reduction in tempic field
intensity which would give in effect a raising temperature to
the aircraft and contents. I understand that Mantell's body gave
every indication of having been subjected to considerable
heat..."

Why should we take Smith's reduced binding explanation for what
happened to Mantell and his aircraft in his encounter with a UFO
seriously, especially when Smith did not investigate Mantell's
crash in person. Well, Smith did investigate other mysterious
aircraft crashes. Quoting from another talk Smith gave to the
Vancouver Flying Saucer Club three years later we learn that:

"...One of these unexplained crashes occurred at a place called
Essudon, which is about 20 miles south and west of Quebec City.
We investigated the region through which this B.O.A.C. aircraft
must have passed just prior to its crash, and sure enough - big
as life and twice as natural - we found a very large and very
strong vortex. Our instruments showed it beyond a doubt..."

"...You will recall also that about two or three years ago,
possibly a little longer, a jet aircraft [CF-100 interceptor,
May 5, 1956 - Nick] crashed into a nunnery at Orleans, just out
of Ottawa, killed a number of people and did a great deal of
damage. In fact, the jet engine itself was finally dug our of
the sub-soil about thirty feet below the foundations of this
convent. We investigated that one. Once again we found a very
strong vortex of reduced binding..."

 >The accident report on Mantell's crash is somewhere in the
 >literature; I recall reading it with interest, but don't recall
 >where. It gave complete details about the mode of descent and
 >the wreckage. Maybe it was on that Sightings program (which I
 >have on videotape and will review one of these days).

<snip>

Hi Richard!

Was it in Edward J. Ruppelt's excellent 1956 UFO book 'The
Report on Unidentified Flying Objects'? After consulting with
Allen J. Hynek, Ruppelt was convinced the Air Force's
explanation that Mantell's UFO was Venus is wrong. After further
investigation Ruppelt seems to feel that what Mantell had seen
may have been a 100 foot diameter skyhook balloon. What I still
find puzzling, is although Smith was aware of what Ruppelt wrote
about the Mantell UFO incident in his book, his claim that the
debris from the aircraft "just fell apart and was scattered over
quite an area" and that "Mantell's body gave every indication of
having been subjected to considerable heat" doesn't seem to
agree with Ruppelt's account (which I briefly quote below from
page 57).

"...I had always heard a lot of wild speculation about the
condition of Mantell's crashed F-51, so I wired for a copy of
the accident report. It arrived several days after my visit with
Dr. Hynek. The report said that the F-51 had lost a wing due to
excessive speed in a dive after Mantell had "blacked out" due to
the lack of oxygen. Mantell's body was not burned, not
disintegrated, and was not full of holes..."

I wonder who the sources of this "wild speculation" were
regarding Mantell's fatal airplane crash at the time when Ruppelt
wrote his book in 1956. Were these sources the same ones which
Smith, who like Ruppelt, also had high level U.S. Air Force
contacts and was even provided with a piece of a flying saucer
shot off over Washington, D.C., got his facts from and mentioned
in his 1958 and 1961 talks? A not too clear photo on James
Easton's web site allegedly of Mantell's crashed aircraft

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg

raises the question that both Ruppelt's and Smith's accounts may
not have the whole story. As far as I am concerned, the Mantell
UFO incident is still unexplained.

Nick Balaskas





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 23

                Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:37:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:32:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic... - Mortellaro


 >From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic...
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:28:51 -0700


 >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic...
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:26:56 -0300

 >>>

 ><snip>

 >>>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >>>I had the distinct displeasure of doing a TV show (The Shulman
 >>>File) with Kurtz in Toronto. He is a typical nasty noisey
 >>>negativist who hadn't done his home work at all, but still came
 >>>on strong with his research by proclamation. Facts don't matter
 >>>to him. Instead it is bias, prejuduce and ignorance. What a
 >>>combination!

 >>He demostrated these same characteristics on a Larry King show I
 >>saw years ago.


 >Hi Stan,

 >I too had the dis-pleasure of being on a radio program several
 >years ago with Kurtz. He was supposed to stay on the air and
 >talk UFOs with me. I brought up a remarkable UFO video taken
 >down in the Nevada area. In mid-sentence, Kurtz thought it would
 >be okay to interrupt me and zealously proclaim the Phoenix
 >Lights were a fraud - even though I was talking about Nevada.

 >I had to remind Kurtz, several times, that I was talking about
 >some footage out of Nevada and not Arizona - he still didn't get
 >it and kept wanting to focus on the Phoenix Lights case. I
 >finally had to tell him to stop talking and that he had already
 >had his opportunity to talk in the previous half-hour.

 >After discussing this video-footage, Kurtz was asked about it by
 >the host. Kurtz said he didn't know anything about it and that
 >the, you guessed it, Phoenix Lights case was nothing. Kurtz then
 >said it was getting late and he had to go.

 >Indeed, investigation by proclamation seems to be the MO of
 >these folks. Really, how many field investigations have these
 >guys conducted? These are the same folks saying that all cattle
 >mutilation cases are predators and cultists - yet they can't
 >directly prove it nor can they challenge the data on the subject
 >to date.....


Gentle Men, Ladies and EBK,

Speaking with a skeptic is genuinely the worst experience a
person with an open mind may have. In some recent discussions I
had with a person on this list, I asked several questions which
were rather pointed and specific.

So as not to insult or divulge, as I happen to like this looney
bin and would not insult, I shall use an example.

I said, "Please pay specific attention to X and Y because I am
genuinely (and I was) interested in your take on it. It's
important to me to understand how your mind works when
confronted with X and Y and these two pieces of the puzzle are
intimately related to the UFO abduction phenomena."

In the discussion, Q, R and S were also discussed, however I
told this person to please look only at X and Y. For one thing,
Q, R and S had nothing at all to do with the phenomenon under
discussion, and bore little resemblance to the UFO abduction
phenomena.

Guess what I got back after he looked at Q, R, S, X and Y? He
came back with his take on everything but X and Y and proceeded
to debate the fallacy of the phenomenon based exclusively on Q,
R and S.

It was like banging my head against a brick wall. There is no
logic in the mind of the skeptic, except the logic of debating
anything which that skeptic may use to deflate the entire
phenomena, even though the argument used is not relevant. If
it's something he can prove or otherwise deflate the argument,
it's done against the entire topic.

So, we now speak only about fresh wine and cheese. I suggest
that the skeptibunkers out there take to drinking or other
substances during debate on the subject of UFO's and abduction.
Loosens the tongue and makes the man more pliable. Not to
mention making even more sense to himself whilst still being
unable to find the door.

I remain,


Jim Mortellaro
with port, not pot,
and no portfolio






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   Jun > Jun 23

                             Re: Blimps - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:58:38 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:37:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Acres


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:42:28 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:53:49 +1000
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:11:39 -0300
 >>>Subject: Re: Blimps

 ><snip>

 >Take the UFO question out of the equation and there's still some
 >answers missing. If indeed people were injured, one would think
 >that someone would have had to answer for it. Now I know these
 >were different times and there was a war on, but where's the
 >wrap-up report?

 >I realise that there was hysteria involved but some cooler heads
 >must have prevailed and someone probably wrote it up.


Hi Don! :)

It seems the LA Times at least, never published an official
closure on the subject! Which is strange considering in an early
special edition on the morning of the 25th, the article states:
" the planes flew in formations of eight to 20 craft, and the
story quoted two sources as saying aircraft were shot down."


Here are excerpts from a periodical feature written in early
2001:


As a teenager, Dougan collected newspaper clippings of the war's
big events, and Los Angeles papers never published a story in
which government officials admitted the episode was a false
alarm.

"It was quite a deal," Dougan said of the Los Angeles air raid,
"and as they say, I was there."

The west coast false alarm made the news in The Topeka Daily
Capital.

A page 1 photograph showed a woman in Los Angeles examining a
bed shredded by shrapnel when an antiaircraft shell exploded
when it struck the ground and exploded near the bed. Just before
the explosion, the bed had been occupied by two people, who got
up to watch the antiaircraft guns firing, escaping death or
injury, the caption to the photograph said.

An Associated Press story in that edition of The Daily Capital
quoted Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox as saying the event was
a "false alarm" and that there hadn't been any planes over Los
Angeles during the incident.

But a military statement said "the aircraft" causing the Los
Angeles blackout hadn't been identified, no enemy bombs were
dropped, and no planes had been shot down.

"The screeching wails of sirens awakened most of the area's 3
million sleepers and within a few minutes, they saw a slow-
moving object, which many thought was a blimp, caught in an
intensely bright patch of light where scores of searchlights
converged," the AP story said.

But a day after the episode, Stimson released an army report
that said as many as 15 planes might have been flown by "enemy
agents" over the Los Angeles area to spread alarm, test the
area's antiaircraft defenses and to test the effectiveness of
blackouts. Stimson said 1,430 rounds of ammunition were fired by
the antiaircraft guns....

Also from that feature is the mention of US Fighter Planes
scrambled, which the military apparently subsequently denies! :
"When about 40 American P-38 fighters from a nearby field
arrived, the gunners shut down to avoid hitting the fighters,
which circled and eventually returned to their home field".






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 23

                    Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:46:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:46:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Hatch


 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@cogeco.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:21:06 -0400

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 ><snip>

 >>PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

 >>GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
 >>medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
 >>Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.
 >>At 10:00 PM, the witnesses noticed that lights or stars were
 >>moving around the sky past a tall lookout tower.

<snip>

 >>George, List:
 >
 >>This is obviously a garden veriety example of >autokinetic motion
 >>of the eye muscles. For an example, go >outside tonight as soon
 >>as it's dark and if the sky is clear look to the >West for
 >>brilliant Venus. Stare at it for a minute or so >and you will see
 >>the famous "falling leaf effect" of the last Allen >Hynek.

<snip>

 >Howdy Mr. Young & All,

 >I've been looking up into the sky since my childhood, and not
 >once have I ever seen or experienced this "autokinetic motion"
 >which you keep bringing up. Maybe your eyes work differently
 >than mine.

 >The only thing that I've noticed is that now I'm in my 40's I
 >need to either wear my glasses or look through binoculars in
 >order to check anything out in detail. Otherwise the stars
 >remain stationary and fixed, as they should. The only things I
 >see moving around up there are usually airplanes or satellites,
 >or the occasional shooting star.

 >My one UFO sighting involved an object which vanished in front
 >of my eyes after collapsing into a tiny dot first, like an old
 >TV set shutting off. That was no aircraft from this world, and
 >it wasn't "autokinetic motion" either.



Hello Marty:

As an experiment, I stood outside on a dark nite at work
(sneaking a cigarette) and pretended I was some dolt who just
finished his first UFO book, article, or television spectacle.

Some bright planet was visible, probably Venus or Jupiter. I
stared at it, and it was stationary with respect to the dimmer
stars.

Then I shifted over a few feet so a tall tree nearly got in the
way. _Then_ I noted a slight back and forth motion, not really
"falling leaf", but noticeable .. and it was in perfect rhythm
to my weight shifting back and forth from one foot to the other.
I suppose that helps the circulation in tired feet.

Furthermore, my middle-aged eyes made this planet look rather
oval in shape, more so in one eye than the other. ( I should
really pop for prescription lenses.)

This 'ovoid' was stretched out from left to right as if squished
from above and below. I let myself 'see' a glowing flying saucer
in effect, for a little while.

Then I blinked and resumed by usual self, the one that knows
damn well this was a planet. Not everybody does that of course,
and that is why I am very, very suspicious of "nite-lite"
reports via the internet etc.

Sightings reports must be filtered if we are ever going to
discern the signal in all that noise. The trick for me at least,
is to carefully scan the observer's description; reading between
the lines so to speak.

This gets very tedious. Makes me thirsty. [ burp!]


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:08:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:44:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:08:47 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:42:02 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:58:38 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

<snip>

 >>>What about, if EBK approves, having two lists - UFOs and
 >>>Abductees? The two topics could still come together on the
 >>>SDI show itself, but perhaps a strictly Abductee List might
 >>>not attract as much negativity as the current mixed List?

 >>>From the sound of the non-poster abductees, the traffic would
 >>>increase due to more being willing to post, so would you, Errol,
 >>>have enough time to accommodate the two separated lists?

 >>Hello Eleanor:

 >>Apart from the extra burden on EBK and inevitable complications,
 >>I think your idea has certain merits.

 >>A subscriber could lurk on one list, participate in the other
 >>while monitoring both.

 >>Occasionally, when the subject matter affects UFO sightings
 >>_and_ abductees, he or she could post to both lists.

 >>If there is some unwelcome thread brewing on one List, the other
 >>may well proceed un-encumbered. Hmmm..

 >Hello Larry and Eleanor ... EBK,

 >I hate to disagree with a fello Grippler, but I do. This List
 >consists of researchers who should be hearing about what is
 >happening in the abduction community. That is their purpose
 >in'it? To keep informed? Or is it to commisserate with each
 >other on the state of ufology only amongst themselves?

 >In the last book I read, there was just that one, I lerned that
 >in order to communicate, the act required that the information
 >flow two ways. Just lurking points to nothing. Communicating
 >points to understanding.

 >Just my opinion.

 >And by the by, I have not forgotten the "foccacio" affair. Just
 >as a communique' between the Palermians and the Dublinians, I
 >shall perform my diplomatic duties and send a loaf of same to
 >Mr. Hatcher. I just gotta make the trip to Little Palermo and
 >that's a bit of a schlep.


Hello Jim:

I might have given the wrong impression! I'm not a Dubliner, I'm
not even Irish (not much anyway). I had one German granny, the
rest mostly English with just a drop of Scotch-Irish, and maybe
a weakness for genuine pub Guinness, corned beef with cabbage
etc. - - - One (perhaps small) advantage of separate lists would
be that the perceived abductees could be more open with one
another, with less ridicule and dismissal. Some abductees who
don't post now might be more willing to do so.

Those who prefer other aspects of UFOs could debate and discuss
without the problems Katharina referred to.

Yes, the downsides might overwhelm the advantages. It was just
an idea Eleanor brought up which I found interesting. - - - I
still worry about the cost-benefit ratio of Foccacia bread going
from coast to coast! I hope it travels better than Guinness,
that gets wrecked in hermetically sealed containers!


Best

- Larry







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                      Obviously, It's Almost June 24th

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 06:22:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:57:30 -0400
Subject: Obviously, It's Almost June 24th


Source: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_611298.html

Woman claims to see strange light circles on garden fence

A woman from Hove in West Sussex claims to be able to see
strange circles of light on her garden fence.

Lisa Stewart says she can see lights of perfect circles which
have a pronounced X at their centre.

The 36-year-old first saw the beams six years ago and took some
photographs but thought little more about them.

The Evening Argus reports Lisa's children have also seen the
lights.

Similar light shapes have been seen in Norway, Germany,
Slovenia, Canada and the US.

The paper says they have also been spotted on the walls of the
Jarvis Hotel in Guildford, Surrey.

Lisa said: "I think they are a strange phenomenon, on a par with
crop circles. I know other people have seen them but I think you
have to be receptive to them. Maybe I've seen them because I've
been looking for them."

Story filed: 17:27 Wednesday 19th June 2002



==========

Source: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_609455.html

UFO 'spotted hovering over sacred cliff'

Residents in Sri Lanka claim aliens are visiting sacred sites
and tourist attractions in a UFO.

Authorities are investigating several sightings of a mysterious
blue ball hovering in Dimbulagala.

A local UFO enthusiast says aliens are probably studying
technology used to construct ancient buildings.

Sanjaya Bandara said: "They might have travelled to our ancient
sites to find a key to the mysteries of the universe."

A TV reporter claims to have seen the object hovering over a
sacred cliff for more than a week.

Gamini Obeysekara, who works for the government channel
Rupavahini, said: "It took three days for me to get this strange
blue light on video tape. It seemed to heading towards the
sacred areas."

Dimbulagala, in north central Sri Lanka, houses historical ruins
dating back to the first century AD.

A team of astrophysicists from the University of Colombo are
investigating the reported sightings.

Dr Chandana Jayaratne said: "We cannot be sure until we
completely verify the story. It could well turn out to be
fabricated."

Story filed: 15:52 Monday 17th June 2002







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                  Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Matthews

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:04:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:00:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Matthews


 >From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >By Glenn Campbell

 >I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?


I don't entirely agree.

In 1999, I think it was, I posted information on Frank Carlson
and hard information our team of British researchers had on him,
on Papoose Lake and the man-made UFOs developed and tested
there.

Nevertheless, and despite the fact that I have given several
detailed lectures on the Carlson story, not to mention talking
to several well-placed documentary makers, people still prefer
aliens, BS, hype and lies.

All it would need would be for a few dedicated, sensible and
level-headed types to get to the bottom of this story but nobody
has ever offered. This MJ-12 fantasy and all the myths
surrounding "back-engineered" technology have killed off
people's interest in the truth.

When you can explain something, no matter how interesting my
friends and I may find it, most people don't want to know,
because it destroys too many illusions and puts too many people
out of business.

No matter; one day the truth will be told and Jack Pickett,
Thomas Smith and others, who have good information of America's
secret saucers, will be seen as the truthtellers they are, and
were.

I'm surprised you never came across more hard evidence for
Papoose Lake, but perhaps that's not what you were looking for.
I actually think British researchers have a better idea about
this than the Americans.

Twas ever thus...

Tim Matthews.







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                           Chinese Mystery Pyramid

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:35:40 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:03:51 -0400
Subject: Chinese Mystery Pyramid


Source: The Times Of India

http://www1.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=13482933

Tunnels, Pipes, Tower From 'ET Launch Site' Found In China


BEIJING (Reuters) - A team of Chinese scientists is to head out
to the far west of the country to investigate a mystery pyramid
that local legend says is a launch tower left by aliens from
space, Xinhua news agency said on Wednesday.

Nine scientists will probe origins of the 50-60 metre (165-198
ft) tall structure -- dubbed "the ET relics" -- in the western
province of Qinghai this month, the agency said.

It sits on Mount Baigong, has three caves with triangular
openings on its facade and is filled with red-hued pipes leading
into the mountain and a nearby salt water lake, Xinhua said.

Rusty iron scraps, pipes amd unusually shaped stones were
scattered around the inhospitable and largely uninhabited area,
it said.

A research fellow at a nearby observatory of the Chinese Academy
of Social Sciences said the theory the pyramid was created by
extra terrestrials was "understandable and worth looking into."

Xinhua did not report any details on the age of the structure,
or any other possible explanations for it.




Regards Dave,









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                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:10:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:08:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - White


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:08:47 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

<snip>


 >I hate to disagree with a fello Grippler, but I do. This List
 >consists of researchers who should be hearing about what is
 >happening in the abduction community. That is their purpose
 >in'it? To keep informed? Or is it to commisserate with each
 >other on the state of ufology only amongst themselves?

With two Lists, presumably, those researchers interested in both
of these topics could subscribe to both. The issues of UFO
craft, and abductions, which includes abductions by apparent
miltary personnel, are different enough, for example, that a
database structure for one would not be useful to store and
analyze info for the other.

As to commiseration, there is no need for a list to do that, we
all have off-list email capability.


Eleanor White






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                             Re: Mantell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:55:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:09:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:54:24 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >>>>Subject: Re: Mantell
 >>>I am still not convinced that Mantell was 'closing' on a
 >>>balloon.

 >>You should be. There is no reason to believe the object was
 >>anything else. When I studied the case in order to reconstruct
 >>it for my encyclopedia, I was surprised at how weak the case is
 >>and how much was made of it. Frankly, it's disheartening at this
 >>late date to see efforts to resurrect it, when there is no
 >>shortage of far stronger, more puzzling reports far more worthy
 >>of our attention.

 >I am sure there is, but what makes the identification of
 >Mantell's object of pursuit a skyhook balloon so strong?

For two things. One, the witness descriptions correlate so well
with a Skyhook, and two, even better, we know where the Skyhook
came from, though it took awhile (and the efforts of two
conscientious researchers, Barry Greenwood and Robert Todd) to
find out. The Skyhook was launched from Camp Ripley, Minnesota,
the morning of the day before the Mantell encounter, which
occurred on the afternoon of January 7, 1948.

 >I have
 >not yet seen the statement supported by facts indicating the
 >release of the skyhook in that vicinity, when, where, and other
 >data. I have never seen strong evidence it was a UFO either. I
 >guess what makes the case so dramatic was his plane crash.

True, though of course that doesn't make it a UFO-engineered
crash, George Adamski and Orfeo Angelucci's testimony
notwithstanding. Mantell was not wearing a gas mask and went
too high -- something like 25,000 feet -- before apparently
blacking out and losing control of his F-51.

 >>One problem is that some apparently genuine UFO sightings
 >>occurred that same evening, to the West in Ohio, and these often
 >>get conflated, unjustifiably, into the Mantell saga. Please
 >>check out my account in the encyclopedia or in the paperback
 >>abridgement, The UFO Book, if you have either in your library.

 >I will check it out. Perhaps you have the facts gathered there.
 >I was not aware of the sightings that evening in Ohio. What was
 >characteristic about these that compelled you to think they were
 >genuine UFOs (or TrUFOs as Dr. Maccabee calls them)?

Rather than repeat myself, I urge you to read my reconstruction
of the events of the day in the above-mentioned works.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark







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                 Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 09:40:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:11:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Deardorff


 >From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >By Glenn Campbell

 >I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"? ...

 >Still the inquiries keep coming, especially after Lazar's recent
 >reappearance on Art Bell (June 6, 2002), where he announced yet
 >another movie deal. The only way to efficiently deal with my
 >questioners is to come up with a crude one-word answer.

 >Unfortunately, that answer is False.

 >I don't mean this as an insult to Mr. Lazar. He's an incredibly
 >creative and intelligent guy. I also don't mean to denigrate
 >Lazar's many supporters. One thing I learned while studying Area
 >51 is that you don't mess with people's religion. Lazar, I
 >believe, has a right to make his claims, and people have a right
 >to believe him. Lazar's flying saucers have become part of
 >Nevada's identity, and probably even my own. I mean "False" only
 >in a rather mundane factual sense. ...


<snip>

Glenn,

I would disagree that Lazar has a right to make claims that he
worked at Area 51 back-engineering UFO propulsion systems, etc.,
if he in fact did not.

Jim Deardorff







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                Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Davey

From: Virginia Davey <vmdavey@idirect.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:27:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:20:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Davey


 >From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:24:52 -0400
 >Subject: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >Many times I have wanted to join the UpDates 'discussion'
 >regarding abductees, but each time have reminded myself of the
 >horrid treatment some of the abductee folks have received - a
 >very vicious and public flogging by some who seem to consider
 >themselves the Ultimate Abductees. Judging by the events on
 >UpDates in the past month especially, it should not come as a
 >surprise that some of us choose to be just 'lurkers' on UpDates,
 >with no plans to change that and become active participants
 >under the current circumstances.

Dear Katharina et al.,

I would like to thank all of you for your thoughts in this matter.

Like you, I have been appalled at the rancour and viciousness
that occasionally have been displayed on this List, particularly
towards Jim Mortellaro. It amazes me that such attacks come,
not from a debunker, but from within the community.

The resulting damage has been significant, not only to the
persons involved, but to this List and to ufology as a whole.

It is a sad commentary on the state of ufology when experiencers
are driven away from a premier List such as this.

I hope that the situation improves in good measure.

I for one regret being deprived of your input on this most
serious and puzzling phenomenon of abduction.


Virginia Davey

Toronto







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                 Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:50:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:21:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Mortellaro


 >From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >By Glenn Campbell

 >I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

<snip>

 >Answering "False" still rubs me the wrong way. I distain
 >finality, and I certainly don't want to attract the attention
 >Lazar's rabid supporters. Instead, I would rather state things
 >in relative terms: Lazar's claims _could_ be true, like the boy
 >crying wolf who eventually encounters a real one, but given the
 >known lies and lack of new information, the joy of exploring the
 >story has dwindled. Life is full of more interesting mysteries.

Dear Glenn, List, EBK;

Glenn Campbell - True or False?

Should be the title of this piece. Who is Glenn Campbell,
anyway? Nothing more than a singer. Who is this singer and why
does he create more than enough noise, the kind of noise of
which we spoked on several other posts, to choke off the entire
spectrum? Huh?

Almost everyone knows that Lazar is a man at his word, speaking
his truth, that he most certainly _did_ do what he said he dood,
that he was right there, underground, at Area 51 1/2! Of which
very few peoples know exists about.... about which everyone
knows, exists.

Whatever.

Singer didn't know about them places, eh? Well they are there,
in black and white. (Most secret places are never in color, just
aks Stanley Steaman, Friendly Stanton ... whatever)

So armed with this knowledge, we, the Canal Street Research
Tank, certify that Mr. Lazar is the real deal. And, we expect to
have him regressed by Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt himself. Morty has
resignated from his position and I been taken to put it over,
put to taken his position over. Whatever. Here is our decisions
and certifications:

Bobby (The ALien Hunter) Lazar is, by virtue of this
certificate, the real deal. We certify having verified that he
worked at the ultra, super, top, top secret Area 51 1/2, and
that he definitely saw flying saucers and figgered 'em all out
how they work. And this is our position statement. From our
normal and regular position. Gripple prone.

God bless America and all the ships at sea, and them Canadians
too, what the heck.

Dr., Dr., Dr., J. Jaime Gesundt, The Third






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                  Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:59:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:25:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman


 >From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >By Glenn Campbell

 >I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

<snip>

It is good to hear from Glenn Campbell again. For those who want
more on the falsifications of Bob Lazar I would recommend my
piece on my website:

www.-v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

Briefly he has no degrees from MIT or CIT, worked for a
sub-contractor and not for LANL; attended Pierce JC in So.
California at the same time he was supposedly at MIT 2500 miles
away, finished in the bottom third of his highschool class,
which would have precluded acceptance at MIT, and named a
supposed physics Prof. from CIT who never taught there but did
teach at Pierce... just for starters.....

Conclusion?

FRAUD


Stan Friedman







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                     Explanation Of 'UFO' Over Dagestan?

From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:47:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:27:40 -0400
Subject: Explanation Of 'UFO' Over Dagestan?


http://ufoinfo.com/news/dagestan.shtml


Paul Stonehill







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                      New On Magonia Website - 06-23-02

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:23:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 08:01:12 -0400
Subject: New On Magonia Website - 06-23-02


Here are the latest additions to the magonia website:

Book Reviews for June by Peter Rogerson
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/june02.htm

In Praise of Fence-Sitting: Gareth Medway wonders why people are
so unwilling to say "I don't know" when it comes to
extraterrestrial life:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/fence01.htm
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/fence02.htm

Luis Gonzalez summarises the strange UMMO affair - and names names:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/ummo.htm
... and again in Spanish:
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/90/ummoesp.htm

Peter Rogerson deconstructs a classic Victorian ghost story

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/imogen.htm

I hope some of you will find something of interest.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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                   Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:25:51 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 08:03:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Acres


 >From: Matt Hurley <m.hurley@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>>
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:29:52 +0100


 >Some of you may not be aware that this 1942 LA photo was
 >published in Tim Godd's 1987 book Above Top Secret

 >Matt

 >Historical Artwork and UFOs by Matthew Hurley

 >http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.hurley


Thanks for that info Matt! :) Is it the same pic as the LA
Times, with the light beams trimmed? Or is it the original with
the beams extending beyond the lighted object?

Your site is amazing! A must visit for ufologists & skeptics
alike!

I'm not quite convinced on the Egyptologist's Abydos
explaination myself! Did she comment on the  insectiod entity in
the tomb of Ptahhotpe in Mastabas, North Saqqara.

Also, didn't you have a pic of the original Gullivers Travels
cover depicting the flying island? Why did you remove it? Or did
I see it elswhere in my travels? It makes me want to read the
original version, maybe the Author was an abductee?







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                    PRAVDA.Ru Interviews Stephen Bassett

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 08:33:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:15:14 -0400
Subject: PRAVDA.Ru Interviews Stephen Bassett


Source: PRAVDA.Ru

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/19/30723.html

June 19, 2002

Stig

-----

18:06 2002-06-19

UFO POLITICS: PRAVDA.RU INTERVIEWS STEPHEN BASSETT

Recently, PRAVDA.Ru interviewed Mr. Stephen Bassett, a
congressional candidate in the eighth congressional district of
the state of Maryland. In addition, he is a well-known UFO/ET
activist.

**

P: Greetings Mr. Bassett. We appreciate your willingness to give
PRAVDA.Ru this exclusive interview. Please start by describing
yourself for our readers.

B: I make it a point to emphasize the Disclosure2003 campaign is
not about me, but about the issues. My background is not
special. Here is the background info I provide to all media:

Stephen Bassett is a political activist/lobbyist. He is the
founder of Paradigm Research Group; Executive Director of the
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee (X-PPAC);
author of the Paradigm Clock website; and political
columnist/commentator for numerous websites, publications and
radio programs. Presently he is the only registered lobbyist in
the U.S. representing UFO/ET research/activist organizations. On
April 19, he announced as an independent candidate in the 2002
congressional campaign for the 8th District of Maryland.

X-PPAC (pronounced expack) is the first political action
committee in history to target the political implications of
UFO/ET phenomena.

Since 1996, Mr. Bassett has assisted a number of organizations
and initiatives, which have been making the case for (1) an end
to a government embargo on the truth surrounding an
extraterrestrial presence and (2) the need for open
congressional hearings for government witness testimony to
UFO/ET events and evidence. He has spoken to millions of
Americans about the likelihood and implications of a formal
disclosure event.

P: It seems that your main issue is the disclosure of the US
government of information pertaining to what it knows regarding
the presence of UFOs and extraterrestrial life. When did you
first become involved in this issue and why?

B: I entered the field in 1996. It was a very deliberate
decision, not casual. A critical influence at the time was the
work of Harvard psychiatrist, Dr. John Mack, at the Program for
Extraordinary Experience Research (PEER) in Cambridge, MA. My
views on extraterrestrial phenomena had been taking shape since
early childhood. The key aspect of entering a new field of work
is to find the appropriate niche. For me that was the "politics
of disclosure." I was very lucky in the timing and the fit of
this approach. A second critical aspect was the decision to work
pro bono, to not charge any organization or individual for any
assistance provided within the field of UFO/ET
research/activism. This was important to networking and
developing trust. Having spent most of my personal resources,
the work will increasingly depend upon donations from the
interested and concerned public. The public will decide to what
extent it wishes to support this work, which is at it should be.

P: How does your congressional campaign tie into your activism
regarding UFOs?

B: The Disclosure2003 congressional campaign is a direct
outgrowth of the lobbying work of Paradigm Research Group
(www.paradigmclock.com) and the Extraterrestrial Phenomena
Political Action Committee (X-PPAC - http://www.x-ppac.org).
July 4 marks my sixth year in the activism of disclosure. It has
been an extraordinary experience. PRG was founded in July of
1996. X-PPAC was founded in July of 1999. Along the way every
attempt has been made to assist every political initiative being
put forward by other individuals and organizations with the goal
of "disclosure." Right now the most important of these other
initiatives is the Disclosure Project
(http://www.disclosureproject.org).

P: You use the term "the politics of disclosure." What does this
term mean exactly?

B: "Disclosure" has a very specific meaning and is coming to be
thought of in this context by millions of people around the
world. That meaning is this: formal, public acknowledgement by
the governments of the planet (likely starting with the U.S.) of
the extraterrestrial presence. The "politics of disclosure"
refers to the process, which began in earnest around 1991,
leading up to this formal event. It is the biggest political
news story of all time.

P: How would you describe yourself politically? For example, do
you consider yourself to be a "populist?"

B: As a matter of fact, I do consider myself a "populist." I am
currently a registered "independent." This is important for a
number of reasons, not the least being that the key issue -- the
fact of an extraterrestrial presence -- is obviously a non-
partisan issue. In fact, it is a transcendent issue. Other
issues emanating out from this core issue are also non-partisan.
It is important to take this campaign to all Americans, local
and national. The extraterrestrial presence will have planetary
impact on the human species as a whole.

Wishing to be viewed as a fully legitimate candidate, I have
taken positions on a range of national and international issues.
These positions are both left and right of center. Perhaps the
vector sum of all these positions would be slightly left of
center.

P: Other than the issue of UFOs and extraterrestrial life, what
issues are important to you and your campaign?

B: Here are the core themes of the campaign: reforming the
oversight of the intelligence community, citizen empowerment,
restoring citizen trust in government, separating journalism
from the national security state, repairing the fundamental
relationship within the social contract, empowering women around
the world. The motto of the Disclosure2003 campaign is
"transparent government, private citizenry." That simple phrase
packs a lot of meaning.

Some specific issues include the following: signing the land
mine ban treaty, oversight of the Echelon surveillance system,
the presidential override of the 1978 Presidential Records Act,
the "war on drugs" and the criminalizing of America. There are
many more presented on the campaign website.

P: How is your congressional campaign going?

B: The campaign is going smoothly. Right now, the emphasis is on
getting nominating signatures. Maryland law is like most states.
If you are not filing as a candidate of one of the two main
political parties, you must obtain a specific number of
nominating signatures to be on the ballot as an independent
candidate. In Maryland, that amount is 1% of the total
registered voters within the congressional district --
approximately 3800.

The rules regarding independent candidates is key to the
activist strategy. A two-party candidate (Democrat or
Republican) must run in the party primaries, which can take
place as early as March. If they lose, they are out of the
election. An independent candidate who obtains the necessary
signatures is on the ballot and able to campaign right on
through to the November election.

We are confident we will deliver the required number of
signatures by the deadline, August 5.

There has been media attention and more is expected. Notable is
a recent mention in a large article in the June 16 Daily/Sunday
Express in Great Britain. The website is developing well and is
already quite comprehensive: http://www.Disclosure2003.net

While campaigning is going on, it will not begin in earnest
until the signatures have been certified -- around August 15.

P: If you are elected as a congressman, what will your immediate
goals be?

B: There is little chance I will become a congressman. It is
estimated the three top candidates in the 8th District election
(two Democrats and one Republican) will collectively raise and
spend approximately $6 million by election day. The strategy is
to get on the ballot and then challenge the two-party candidates
with questions relating to the core themes, to take advantage of
all the national press this particular race will attract and to
give confidence to other candidates across the country to come
forward and speak to the issue of the UFO/ET reality.

There is also the possibility that I will hold the swing votes
by October. This could result in serious discussions with the
parties about the core issues.

This is an activist campaign designed to raise public awareness
regarding the most important truth facing the human race --
extraterrestrial beings are manifest about the planet. There is
no doubt that the Disclosure2003 will achieve this basic goal.

*

Questions compiled by Justin Cowgill

**

Copyright =A91999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials in
whole or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made.







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                      UFOs Spotted In Baku, Azerbaijan

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 08:47:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:28:19 -0400
Subject: UFOs Spotted In Baku, Azerbaijan


Source: Baku Sun (Baku, Azerbaijan), June 21, 2002,

http://www.bakusun.az/cgi-bin/ayten/bakusun/show.cgi?code=2664

Stig

***

<snip>

Press report: UFOs spotted in Baku

**

A number of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) were spotted in
the sky above the 20 January metro station, where they hovered
for several hours, the Azeri daily Yeni Musavat reported June
17.

However, the article read, once the reporter got to the scene
the UFOs were nowhere in sight.

"We asked local street vendors for information. One of them said
the UFOs remained in the sky for five hours," the article read.
Their witness claimed to see a round white object that looked
like a saucer. At first there was only one, but it was soon
joined by three others.

The alien craft hung in the air side by side for five or six
hours, the article read.

It also noted that several spectators had previously seen UFOs.

<snip>

Programming by Ayten Alizadeh. Copyright by IntraNS. All
rights reserved.







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                           UFOs Over New Hampshire

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:06:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:29:10 -0400
Subject: UFOs Over New Hampshire


Source: Concord Monitor - New Hampshire

http://www.concordmonitor.com/stories/front2002/local/0620noties_2002.shtml

Stig

***

June 21, 2002
NH News Briefs

**

Something's out there

*

MOLTONBOROUGH - The truth is out there.

Bright lights in the sky this week spooked people into
contacting UFO watchdogs on the West Coast. But the police
dismissed the incident as routine military operations.

On Tuesday night, the Moltonborough police fielded several phone
calls detailing strange lights and noises in the sky. After some
quick investigation, the police identified the source as
helicopters, according to Chief Scott Kinmond.

"The area is used quite frequently by the military," Kinmond
said. "They were engaged in some night training missions."

Others reported bright lights and strange aircraft to the
National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, according to Director
Peter Davenport.

"Alien or not, I dunno," one witness wrote. "But it was
definately [sic] a UFO."

On its Web site (www.ufocenter.com), the Seattle group maintains
a database of UFO sightings, including 81 in New Hampshire over
three decades.

- Keith Meatto

**

=A9 Concord Monitor and New Hampshire Patriot
P.O. Box 1177, Concord NH 03302
603-224-5301







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                             USUFOIRC Conference

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:26:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:31:03 -0400
Subject: USUFOIRC Conference


Source: Times News Online - Tennessee & Southwest Virginia

http://www.timesnews.net/index.cgi?CONTEXT=3Dstory&BISKIT=3D102479599825390&=
id=3D61470&category=3D54

Stig

***

June 22, 2002

UFO society holds conference on Roan Mountain

By CHELSEA SHOUN

**

ROAN MOUNTAIN - Call it intuition, but Stacey Allen McGee
believes the Southern Appalachians are in store for some very
unusual happenings this summer.

"We may see some extraterrestrial activity in the area," he
said.

An amateur astronomer for 20 years, McGee is the founder of the
United States UFO Information and Research Center that held a
conference at Roan Mountain State Park this weekend.

The conference featured guest speakers, a chance to observe the
sun through a reflecting telescope and tour Roan Mountain's
rhododendron gardens.

In fact, McGee said, some strange occurrences took place Friday
night as conference attendees camped out at the park.

Not only did McGee and another person see a glowing white
yellowish object fall from the sky behind a mountaintop, but
campers in three tents felt certain someone was rustling about
outside, but no one was located.

However, hanging out on mountaintops looking for lights in the
sky isn't the ultimate goal of the group. Joann Dollberg,
USUFOIRC's national secretary/treasurer, said the group wants
everyone to recognize that they have had similar experiences.

"Everyone can remember seeing something in the sky," she said.

According to the group's Web site, the mission of the USUFOIRC
is to collect and analyze data on UFO and paranormal phenomena
in an attempt to ascertain a stronger identity of who and what
humanity is and represents.

Based in Unicoi, the USUFOIRC started in 1994 and has members
around the globe. Attendees to this weekend's conference came
from Florida, North Carolina and other southeastern locales.

While the conference has been held in other locations, like the
Davy Crockett birthplace in Limestone, Dollberg said Roan
Mountain is an ideal location because of its unique "energy."

"There have been a lot of sightings in the area here," she said.

Alan Caviness who is heading up USUFOIRC's field investigation
and training program said he finds people all over the country
who have sighted unusual things in the sky.

"I've found I can walk around in daily life and talk to people
who've had these experiences. I knew phenomena were pretty
common but not this much," he said.

Caviness said plenty of legitimate sightings go unreported, so
the USUFOIRC was trying to form a proactive network of
investigators to research the events.

"There's a tremendous disparity between what's reported and
what's not," he said, adding that he had 40 to 50 cases that
occurred near his central North Carolina hometown to
investigate.

"The level of activity is much higher than we understand," he
said.

Caviness said any location in the United States can produce
reports of UFO sightings, and "hot spots" likely didn't exist
any longer.

"This is something for the average lay person," he said of the
investigative network.

Along with the network, the USUFOIRC also wants to construct a
facility to house a UFO museum, planetarium, IMAX theater and
other related materials.

On the net: www.usufoirc.org.

(Image:) Alan Caviness says the hole in this shirt was made by
the taking of a skin sample during an alien abduction. Ned
Jilton II photo.

*

Published June 22, 2002

**

COPYRIGHT =A9 1998-2002 KINGSPORT PUBLISHING CORPORATION







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                    Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:56:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:33:28 -0400
Subject: Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe


Source: The Observer

http://observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,742352,00.html

Stig

***

Passing UFOs make beeline for Scotland

Stephen Khan, Scotland editor
Sunday June 23, 2002
The Observer

**

The country is usually associated with spectacular mountains,
tumbling rivers and deep-fried Mars bars. But Scotland has a
proud new boast: it has become the landing strip of choice for
flying saucers and other mysterious, metallic, hovering craft.

More odd incoming craft have been tracked over the hills and
glens than anywhere else on Earth, and UFO enthusiasts are
flocking north to experience close encounters of the Caledonian
kind.

A survey published tomorrow will reveal that 300 UFOs are seen
in Scotland each year - four times as many as in France and
Italy, which appear to be aliens' next favourite destinations.
Even New Mexico, home of the Roswell air base and Area 51, where
UFO believers insist that alien corpses were kept and studied by
the American government, has seen less activity over the past
decade.

Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO magazine, has tried to explain
the phenomenon. 'UFOs tend to be attracted to regions that are
fairly remote,' he said. 'Plus, if you have a remote area, look
out for air bases; Scotland is littered with air bases. In 90
per cent of reports, a bit of diligent research will produce a
simple explanation.'

But that leaves 10 per cent unexplained. 'When you think of the
number of sightings in Scotland compared to the size of its
population, it is phenomenal,' said Ron Halliday, who has
written two books on the appearance of UFOs in Scotland.

Yet it is not remote Highland or Borders areas that play host to
the visitors. The Nineties saw a sudden surge of sightings in
the central Scottish areas of West Lothian and Stirlingshire,
particularly around the small town of Bonnybridge, near Falkirk.

'The area has become known as the Falkirk triangle,' said
Halliday. 'There have been various suggestions as to why it is
such a magnet for UFOs.

'One theory is that the area near Bonnybridge is a window into
another dimension. That would explain why certain people see a
UFO and others don't - because a UFO is some kind of paranormal
phenomenon, rather than a nuts-and-bolts spaceship.'

Halliday added that the sightings went beyond strange lights in
the sky. Some people had encountered shimmering discs just yards
away from their bodies, while others said they had been attacked
by UFOs.

The most famous such incident occurred in 1979, when forestry
worker Bob Taylor claimed a gang of large shimmering spheres,
with spikes protruding from them like naval mines, set upon him.
He lived to tell the tale and thousands of reported encounters
and UFO spotters followed.

Craig Malcolm has sought a slice of real-life X-Files action by
taking video footage for six years outside the Forge restaurant
in Bonnybridge. While three airports and a gas-flaring oil
terminal all lie within a 30-mile radius and offer some
explanation for what he shot, footage of a ball of light dog-
  legging back and forth across a clear sky is nevertheless
eerie.

Malcolm spends hours in favourite spotting sites such as the one
next to electrical pylons, where a circular ball of light is
said to have bounced along the tree tops, and a field where a
plane- like object with no wings sent 'black reek belching out
the back of it as it soared off'.

Bonnybridge's status as a UFO capital prompted one councillor to
call for it to be twinned with Roswell and ambitious plans have
been mooted to build a multi-million-pound UFO theme park. But
it is not alone. 'There have also been a substantial number of
sightings in the Glasgow area,' added Halliday.

VisitScotland, the tourist board that commissioned the latest
survey, sees it as a growth market. 'Our survey confirms that
Scotland is the nearest thing there is to the Costa del Sol for
aliens,' said Karen Gray of VisitScotland. Whatever the truth
about UFOs, the Falkirk triangle has already attracted hundreds
of visitors from the United States, Japan and England.

**

Guardian Unlimited =A9 Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002







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                     US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:48:32 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:39:13 -0400
Subject: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco


Stan Friedman wrote:

I finally had a chance to watch a tape of the really rotten
History Channel program on Roswell as the USA History channel
isn't shown in Canada.

It is my intention to do a detailed response as I did with the
HC Roswell show a couple of years back, which was almost as bad.

Does anybody have any ideas as to where one might get a
transcript of the show and also who (what company) put it
together?

Kevin has my sympathy. Does anybody know how long was spent in
Roswell by any other of the "Researchers" and also how much time
was actually spent reviewing those supposedly declassified
Roswell Documents at the Archives?

Don't you just love those huge tear drop shaped polyetheylene
balloons, none of which were used for Mogul pre-July, 1947? And
animals not launched until later?

I will try to include some details about other false claims in
my presentation 'Critiquing the Roswell Critics' in Roswell at
the Museum at 7PM, Saturday, July 6.


Stan Friedman





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                  Re: American Civil War Sighting? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:44:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:40:54 -0400
Subject: Re: American Civil War Sighting? - Young


 >From: Karl Rotstan <karl.rotstan@verizon.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:21:04 -0400
 >Subject: American Civil War Sighting?

 >Greetings All,

 >While reading 'A Rising Thunder' by Richard Wheeler (1994,
 >Harper Perennial, ISBN 0-06-09222612-0), I came upon the
 >following passage referring to what seems to be a UFO sighting
 >at the beginning of the American Civil War.

<snip>

 >"[In the evening] a curious phenomenon occurred. Some men in the
 >regiment... had been singing - with all that delicious effect
 >that music at sea produces - several of the finest psalms in our
 >liturgy..... While we were singing, the moon swung clear into the
 >air, and round her white disk was seen three circles, clear and
 >distinct - red, white and blue!

 > I would be grateful for any further information regarding this
  >incident.

Hello, Karl:

This seems to be a meteorological optical phenomenon, akin to
"ring around the Moon". They often take on the colors of the
rainbow. See the following for more info:

http://www.weather-photography.com/Atmospheric_Optics/pho


Clear skies,

Bob Young






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                    Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:44:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:48:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young


 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@cogeco.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:21:06 -0400

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

<snip>

 >>>PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

 >I've been looking up into the sky since my childhood, and not
 >once have I ever seen or experienced this "autokinetic motion"
 >which you keep bringing up. Maybe your eyes work differently
 >than mine.

Nope, we all work the same way. Just look closely at Venus right
now. Might take a few seconds. I've never known a group to not
notice it after it has been called to their attention in 25
years of teaching an astronomy course. You have to stare at it.

<snip>

 >My one UFO sighting involved an object which vanished in front
 >of my eyes after collapsing into a tiny dot first, like an old
 >TV set shutting off. That was no aircraft from this world, and
 >it wasn't "autokinetic motion" either.

Doesn't sound like it to me, either.


Clear skies,

Bob Young






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                    Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:44:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:50:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young


 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:35:14 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>><snip>

 >>>PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

<snip>

 >>GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
 >>medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
 >>Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.

 >>This is obviously a garden veriety example of autokinetic motion
 >>of the eye muscles.

 >You may be right, but the video camera on the space shuttle
 >video tapes the same thing at 250 miles above the Earth passing
 >other stars. Then they stop and hover over the thunderstorms.

George:

Sounds like ice flakes and lightning. I don't think these are
the same things.


Bob







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                   Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 05:55:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:51:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:46:06 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@cogeco.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:21:06 -0400

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

<snip>

 >Sightings reports must be filtered if we are ever going to
 >discern the signal in all that noise. The trick for me at least,
 >is to carefully scan the observer's description; reading between
 >the lines so to speak.

 >This gets very tedious. Makes me thirsty. [ burp!]


What would you read between my lines, Mr. Hatch? Peel down both
sides, and read what remains?

Lehmberg@snowhil..com
~~=D6~~

EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Jun > Jun 24

                Re: Obviously, It's Almost June 24th - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 04:12:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:07:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Obviously, It's Almost June 24th - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 06:22:43 -0400
 >Subject: Obviously, It's Almost June 24th
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: <UFOs@lorencoleman.com>

 >Source: Ananova

 >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_611298.html

 >Woman claims to see strange light circles on garden fence

 >A woman from Hove in West Sussex claims to be able to see
 >strange circles of light on her garden fence.

<snip>

 >UFO 'spotted hovering over sacred cliff'

 >Residents in Sri Lanka claim aliens are visiting sacred sites
 >and [hopeful? -LH] tourist attractions in a UFO.

<snip>

 >Sanjaya Bandara said: "They might have travelled to our ancient
 >sites to find a key to the mysteries of the universe."

<snip>

 >Dr Chandana Jayaratne said: "We cannot be sure until we
 >completely verify the story. It could well turn out to be
 >fabricated."

<snip>


Hello Loren:


Is 24 June Saint Spaten day by any chance? I have or had a
fridge full of Spaten beer. It literally evaporates on warm
California days.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 04:25:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:09:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:04:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >>Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>By Glenn Campbell

 >>I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >>enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >>leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >>False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

 >I don't entirely agree.

 >In 1999, I think it was, I posted information on Frank Carlson
 >and hard information our team of British researchers had on him,
 >on Papoose Lake and the man-made UFOs developed and tested
 >there.

 >Nevertheless, and despite the fact that I have given several
 >detailed lectures on the Carlson story, not to mention talking
 >to several well-placed documentary makers, people still prefer
 >aliens, BS, hype and lies.

 >All it would need would be for a few dedicated, sensible and
 >level-headed types to get to the bottom of this story but nobody
 >has ever offered. This MJ-12 fantasy and all the myths
 >surrounding "back-engineered" technology have killed off
 >people's interest in the truth.

 >When you can explain something, no matter how interesting my
 >friends and I may find it, most people don't want to know,
 >because it destroys too many illusions and puts too many people
 >out of business.
 >No matter; one day the truth will be told and Jack Pickett,
 >Thomas Smith and others, who have good information of America's
 >secret saucers, will be seen as the truthtellers they are, and
 >were.

 >I'm surprised you never came across more hard evidence for
 >Papoose Lake, but perhaps that's not what you were looking for.
 >I actually think British researchers have a better idea about
 >this than the Americans.

 >Twas ever thus...

 >Tim Matthews


Hello Tim:

The British were not the first to smell a rat in Southern
Nevada, though they no doubt didn't trail far behind.

I tried to 'characterize' element 115 ( by atomic number, a most
unlikely substance, something like ectoplasm, with a half life
not even a flea would envy)  and consider the entire Lazar story
a sorry mess that got out of hand.

I would not consider shipping coals to Newcastle, especially by
air-mail, and hope that Lazar and company did not overtax
anybody over there.

I regret that I never heard of Jack Pickett, Thomas Smith and
others.  That is what happens when you hide in California caves
trying to turn bleu cheese into Stilton.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 04:39:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:50:00 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >>Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>By Glenn Campbell

 >>I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >>enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >>leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >>False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

 ><snip>

 >>Answering "False" still rubs me the wrong way.

[snip]

 >Dear Glenn, List, EBK;

 >Glenn Campbell - True or False?

 >Should be the title of this piece. Who is Glenn Campbell,
 >anyway? Nothing more than a singer. Who is this singer and why
 >does he create more than enough noise, the kind of noise of
 >which we spoked on several other posts, to choke off the entire
 >spectrum? Huh?

Dear Jimbo:  Are you thinking of Ricky Nelson?

 >Almost everyone knows that Lazar is a man at his word, speaking
 >his truth, that he most certainly _did_ do what he said he dood,
 >that he was right there, underground, at Area 51 1/2! Of which
 >very few peoples know exists about.... about which everyone
 >knows, exists.

 >Whatever.

 >Singer didn't know about them places, eh? Well they are there,
 >in black and white. (Most secret places are never in color, just
 >aks Stanley Steaman, Friendly Stanton ... whatever)

 >So armed with this knowledge, we, the Canal Street Research
 >Tank, certify that Mr. Lazar is the real deal. And, we expect to
 >have him regressed by Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt himself. Morty has
 >resignated from his position and I been taken to put it over,
 >put to taken his position over. Whatever. Here is our decisions
 >and certifications:

 >Bobby (The ALien Hunter) Lazar is, by virtue of this
 >certificate, the real deal. We certify having verified that he
 >worked at the ultra, super, top, top secret Area 51 1/2, and
 >that he definitely saw flying saucers and figgered 'em all out
 >how they work. And this is our position statement. From our
 >normal and regular position. Gripple prone.

 >God bless America and all the ships at sea, and them Canadians
 >too, what the heck.

 >Dr., Dr., Dr., J. Jaime Gesundt, The Third


Dear Mortawhacka: [burp]

I think Lazar is as genuine as non-fat lasagna.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Jun > Jun 24

                      June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:15:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:16:40 -0400
Subject: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting


55th Birthday of the First "Flying Saucer" Sighting - June 24,
1947

What parts of the history of this event have been forgotten?

There is "...the notion that at least one of the objects seen by
Kenneth Arnold over Washington State on June 24, 1947, was a
Northrop flying wing.

According to [UFO activist Peter] Gersten, Arnold's original
account refers to nine 'bright objects' without 'tails' that
fluttered and tipped their 'wings.' Arnold's illustration of one
of the craft even indicates that it was crescent-shaped. 'The
clincher,' says Gersten, 'is a photograph taken in the late
Forties showing nine of these flying wings on a runway in
California.

Arnold himself thought he saw something the government was
testing. That was everybody's first thought.'"

page 108 in

Swamp Gas Times by Patrick Huyghe

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931044279/mothmanbooks-20

"Let's hope that this landmark in serious UFO literature ends up
in every public library, where it can entice a whole new
generation of inquiring minds to start asking the right
questions of the right people." -- Larry W. Bryant, Director of
Governmental Affairs for the Mutual UFO Network, Inc.

"Swamp Gas Times is the most level-headed, down-to-earth, funny,
scientific look at the day-to-day investigations of ufology that
I have ever read." - Loren Coleman, Author







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   Jun > Jun 24

                  Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:19:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hamilton


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:04:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >>Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>By Glenn Campbell

 >>I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >>enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >>leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >>False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

 >I don't entirely agree.

 >In 1999, I think it was, I posted information on Frank Carlson
 >and hard information our team of British researchers had on him,
 >on Papoose Lake and the man-made UFOs developed and tested
 >there.

 >Nevertheless, and despite the fact that I have given several
 >detailed lectures on the Carlson story, not to mention talking
 >to several well-placed documentary makers, people still prefer
 >aliens, BS, hype and lies.

 >All it would need would be for a few dedicated, sensible and
 >level-headed types to get to the bottom of this story but nobody
 >has ever offered. This MJ-12 fantasy and all the myths
 >surrounding "back-engineered" technology have killed off
 >people's interest in the truth.

Whoa, I think you just stepped on Stan's toes here with your ref
to "MJ-12 fantasy". However, you also have a lot of company in
that opinion and I won't debate the pros and cons here. I happen
to think that there may be something to some of the documents,
especially since some references have now been found in other
documents acquired through FOIA, but that is Stan's area of
expertise.

 >When you can explain something, no matter how interesting my
 >friends and I may find it, most people don't want to know,
 >because it destroys too many illusions and puts too many people
 >out of business.

 >No matter; one day the truth will be told and Jack Pickett,
 >Thomas Smith and others, who have good information of America's
 >secret saucers, will be seen as the truthtellers they are, and
 >were.

 >I'm surprised you never came across more hard evidence for
 >Papoose Lake, but perhaps that's not what you were looking for.
 >I actually think British researchers have a better idea about
 >this than the Americans.

You are right in some respect. There is activity out at Papoose
Lake whether back-engineered or American-developed craft (as you
believe) as sightings continue over the Tikaboo Valley and the
latest happened in May where witnessed observed, through
binoculars, a large triangular aircraft that flew silently from
the Papoose Lake site and along the Jumbled Hills with slow and
silent movement. It was also reported that this triangular
object could turn on its edge and was surrounded by 'firefly-
like' glows.

Back in 1989 Lazar had taken witnesses to see a glowing disk on
a Wednesday night test. On the second trip, they videotaped its
motion and one witness said that it was glowing orange.

Many classic UFO sightings have taken place around, over, and
near the Area 51 site which has restricted air space. I must
have talked to over a hundred witnesses since 1988 - some of
which were impressive. I had my own remarkable sighting there in
March 1993.

Experimental aircraft? If so, they are not jets and some are
tremendously large. Flares? UAVS? All such explanations fail to
match witness testimony. Perhaps advanced aircraft such as the
F-117 Knighthawks or F-22 Raptors. No way. I have seen those
flying out of Edwards AFB every week. Even the Global Hawk.
Aircraft and aviation is a hobby with me and no aircraft flying
over the Antelope Valley which is the hub of aerospace
development matches the stuff seen flying around Area 51 or S4.

-Bill Hamilton







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   Jun > Jun 24

                     Re: USUFOIRC Conference - Anderson

From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:50:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:22:06 -0400
Subject: Re: USUFOIRC Conference - Anderson


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:26:12 +0200
 >Subject: USUFOIRC Conference

 >Source: Times News Online - Tennessee & Southwest Virginia

 >On the net: www.usufoirc.org.

Hmmmm..... I smell something suspicious here.

I think Stacey might get more than a UFO sighting for using the
MUFON logo on his website.








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   Jun > Jun 24

                  Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:13:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:59:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Friedman


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:59:45 -0300

<snip>

 >It is good to hear from Glenn Campbell again. For those who want
 >more on the falsifications of Bob Lazar I would recommend my
 >piece on my website:

 >www.-v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

Big mistake. leave out the first hyphen. The actual site is

www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

Sorry about that.







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   Jun > Jun 24

                  UFOs & Mutilations In Santiago del Estero

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:03:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:18:14 -0400
Subject: UFOs & Mutilations In Santiago del Estero


SOURCE: Diario "El Liberal" Santiago del Estero - Argentina
DATE: June  23, 2002

UFOs AND MUTILATIONS AT SANTIAGO DEL ESTERO
A judge and police officers set off in search of the strange


The police precinct of Garza confirmed yesterday the discovery
of a heifer with parts sectioned off. The event occured under
unknown circumstances and the incisions resemble those now seen
on a daily basis in the fields of the provinces of La Pampa and
Buenos Aires.

The animal was found yesterday in a hilly region of a place
known as Quimilioj in the department of San Martin by a local
resident, Joaquin Lemos: "The cow apparently died two days ago
and it was learned that some of its body parts were missing,
apparently its eyes and udders," reported police and judicial
sources to EL LIBERAL.

These spokesmen maintained that the event deserves the attention
of officialdom since the initial inspections suggest that the
animals death has been surrounded by "confusing circumstances".

"There appears to be no putrefaction and while carrion birds
presumably approached the animal, they did not touch it," added
the sources.

Meanwhile police from Precinct 38 of Garza maintained in its
report to authorities in the capital that no tire tracks or
footsteps were found near the animal, nor anything that could
suggest the presence of cattle rustlers.

At the close of this edition, sources said that "taking these
development into consideration, and in order to make the
corresponding technical verifications, " Fifth Circuit Criminal
Court Justice Dr. Jose Antonio U=F1ates will head out to the site
in question. He will be accompanied by the chief of police,
Sheriff Jose Tomas Lescano, and the veterinarian from the K-9
division, Eduardo Betbeder, chemical specialist of the Narcotics
Unit, Roberto Adamo and personnel from the Institute of
Bromatology of the province. Judge U=F1ates also requested the
attendance of the presdient of the School of Veterinary Medicine
of Santiago del Estero and Dr. Andres Miotti, a local UFO
researcher.

Residents of the Santa Rosa de Lima neighborhood in the city's
northern end contacted EL LIBERAL yesteday to inform that they
have been witnessing for the past several nights--in
concatenation with the sightings at Fernandez and Ojo de Agua--
objects with strange lights in the direction of La Venacha, to
the northeast of Santiago. The wave of rumors and UFO sightings
are directly related to the appearance of mutilated animals and
there are already specialists who point to the presence of
"extraterrestrials" as the parties responsible for these acts.

In spite of the proximity of the city's airport , residents of
the western sector of the city do not relate the strange lights
with planes or helicopters which may be coming in for a landing,
because "they remain motionless for several minutes in the air,
or go up and down in a straight line before vanishing
unexpectedly."

EL LIBERAL combed the neighborhood to collect accounts and
although residents did not wish to make their names known, they
ratified the presence of these lights "over several evenings."
Jose Villalva, the owner of a local supermarket, stated that his
customers are remarking on the presence of these lights in the
sky while doing their groceries, while stating that he himself
has not seen them.

A young man disclosed that a few weeks ago, at night, a group of
police officers went into the wilderness behind the neighborhood
to capture criminals and that the locals, whose curiosity had
driven them to enter the area, saw several lights over the
treetops that ascended and descended. They thought at first that
the lights came from the policemens' flashlights, but they
discarded the possibility immediately upon realizing the
officers had gone and they were alone in the area. Since then,
many people have returned to the site in the hopes of seeing
what they call "UFOs".

A UFO Costs Residents of Fernandez Robles their Sleep

Fernarndez Robles (C)-- EL LIBERAL's exclusive related to the
appearance of a UFO in this city between June 11-14 at different
nocturnal hours regained strength yesterday due to a new
sighting last Thursday around 21:00 hours. Numerous residents of
the following neighborhoods: Norte, 12 de Octubre, Juan Domingo
Peron, Camping, Roca and 102 Viviendas, among others "the
Capital of Agriculture", claim having seen the luminous object.

On said occasion, Marcelo Coronel, a profesisonal mechanic
living on Balcarse Street in Barrio Norte, witnessed--along with
the light of the moon and strars--something similar to a
"headlight surrounded by a red halo which increased and
diminished in hue, and moved slowly from north to south without
making any sound."

Coronel adds that since he was on his way to the Sportivo Club,
he followed [the object] in his car "along old Route 34." Once
he reached the stadium, he continued to witness it along with
the Gallardo family "for over 20 minutes, until it became lost
behind the treeline."

He further added that the event took place after 9:00 pm last
Thursday. "On that day--he said--the wind was blowing northward,
and for that reason I know the object wasn't a balloon. It moved
opposite to the prevailing wind. Very slowly, as round as the
size of a car wheel. It was possible to make out its colors
clearly: intense white at its core (like a headlight) whith a
red aura around it, changing shades of red."

Numerous residents of Fernandez claim having seen the
phenomenon. A considerable number of rumors link this fact with
the wave of unexplained bovine deaths and the emptying of
numerous farm water tanks all over the country. "It is
noteworthy that these lights should move over areas in which the
wells and tanks of the new potable water system are located,"
adds Coronel.

Neighbors agree, pointing out that when they are seen, TV
signals are interrupted or television sets shut themselves off
without any interruption to the flow of electricity, or the sets
change channels without the remote control having been touched,
while dogs bark desperately without any apparent reason.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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   Jun > Jun 24

                   Argentine Carcass Count Will Reach 200

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:06:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:20:39 -0400
Subject: Argentine Carcass Count Will Reach 200


On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:01:09 -0400 lornis1@juno.com writes:
SOURCE: Telam News Agency (Argentina)
DATE: June 22, 2002

MUTILATED COWS
Experts Believe Carcass Count Exceeds 200

Bah=EDa Blanca, June 22 (T=E9lam).- Professionals from the School of
Veterinary Medicine at Tandil who are looking into animal
mutilations in the pastures of La Pampa and Buenos Aires
reported that cases involving dead bovines with strange
extirpations would reach 200 today.


The veterinarians who investigated some 130 cases indicated in
their report that the mutilations were carried out by an
"intelligent being" and discarted "predator damage". Cattle
ranchers and experts from this university met at Olavarria, and
SENASA director Bernardo Can=E9 took advantage of the opportunity
to state that "animal deaths are common this time of year" and
speculated that the deaths could have been caused by an
"enigmatic cult" engaged in "esoteric practices".

The official's theory was greeted skeptically by those present,
who cautioned the functionary about "the perfection of the
incisions and the wide area in which mutilated animals are being
found in Buenos Aires and la Pampa, but also in Santa Fe and
Entre Rios."

Can=E9 recalled that a while ago in the U.S.A. some 15,000 cases
were reported and that investigations in this regard did not
"shed any light whatsoever."

Moreover, Eduardo Quintana, a technician for the Atomic Energy
Regulatory Commission, said that there is nothing abnormal
regarding mutilated animals, while admitting that his agency has
yet to carry out any investigations. It was only recently that
the Commission received grass and dirt samples to be analyzed by
the Ezeiza Nuclear Center in Buenos Aires in order to measure
the gamma radiation present at the cattle mutilation sites.

The carcass count increased in southern Buenos Aires provicne
with the discovery of a 9 month old, 200 kg Aberdeen Angus calf
showing signs of mutilation. At Pigu=E9, to the north of Bah=EDa
Blanca, the toll has risen to nine dead and mutilated bovines.
At La Pampa, 10 km southeast of Abramo, a Shorthorn cow was
found with its jaw, tongue and udders mutilated, according to
Edgar Suarez, the officer-in-charge at the local constabulary.
Cattle rancher Oscar Alvarez, the animal's owner, also reported
the deaths of an Aberdeen Angus and a Hereford mutilated in a
similar fashion.

A dead cow also turned up in Jacinto Arauz, while in the
department of Lihuel Cahuel, on the border with Rio Negro, a 4-
year old Aberdeen Angus cow was found mutilated on the San
Laureano pasture field, belonging to Ricardo Lavandera.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.










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   Jun > Jun 24

                    Mutilations Reach Town of Roque Perez

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:05:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:24:45 -0400
Subject: Mutilations Reach Town of Roque Perez



**The Mystery Continues**
CATTLE MUTILATIONS EXTEND TO ROQUE PEREZ


The day before yesterday it was in Gobernador Ugarte, 25 de Mayo
district and in Bolivar. Today it was Roque Perez's turn. In a
field 10 km away from this city toward the south along the
Camino Real, Pedro Conserva, 79, a cattleman who has lived in
the vicinity for 51 years with his son Abel and the family
group, continues raising Aberdeen Angus cattle. Once we entered
the field, we traveled 1000 meters to reach the farm house,
where an unprecedented event was confirmed: the mutilation of 3
cows which appeared dead in one of the pasture fields. The
owners told "La Manana"'s reporters that they weren't startled
at first, considering that a storm front had gone past and "they
thought that a bolt of lighting may have killed them."

But later they realized that "there is a suggestion of the
inexplicable, since we noticed the absence of udders, tongue,
eyes and ears in all three cases. Furthermore, it seems as
though the animals did not go through any agony, since there is
no sign of kicking."

"It is also curious that the incisions appear to have been made
with a sharp, hot object," they added. Members of the Conserva
family are as surprised as the public at large, since they never
saw anything like it only 1000 meters from the farm house, on a
pasture field holding 340 cows. Only a few meters away there is
an immense expanse that makes up the La Chilca lagoon and other
gullies impossible to cross, thus discarding the presence of
human beings in vehicles throughout the area.

===========================================

Translation (C) 2002. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Special thanks to Proyecto CATENT.







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                   Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:17:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:37:39 -0400
Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting -



 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:15:15 -0400
 >Subject: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting

 >55th Birthday of the First "Flying Saucer" Sighting - June 24,
 >1947

 >What parts of the history of this event have been forgotten?

On June 24th we join hands with the all the world in the
celebration of "International UFO Research Day."

This date was selected because most books point out this day as
the start or beginning of a global public interest for the UFO
phenomenon as a result of the experience of a lonely pilot
called Kenneth Arnold who witness a squadron of unidentified
flying objects over Mount Ranier. From his sighting the
descriptive term "FLYING SAUCER" was born. The image drawn by
artist James Neff depicted on this page dramatizes the encounter
Arnold experienced that day.

Inmediately after Arnold's encounter the civilian population
remained in a state of alert watching the skies. Numerous UFO
sightings were reported; more than 100 in just two weeks. The
term "flying saucer" travelled around the world in an instant.
 From the many cases reported in those first two weeks came the
famous and controversial Roswell Crash in July 2nd.

Kenneth Arnold had his 15 minutes of world fame but at a cost.
Skeptics quickly stepped over Arnold's credibility, sanity, and
reputation. His encounter with something unknown baptized him as
the first UFO witness to be ridiculed by the american press. It
has been said that Arnold regret making his experience public
but he always kept a firm stand over his testimony.

Today we make a call for the whole world to join together for a
few moments to scan the skies and consider seriously that in
that infinite universe of stars, planets, and galaxies there can
be other thinking beings that may be visiting Earth.

Join today. Write to DIAOVNI@ovni.net







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                  Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:55:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:41:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:46:06 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@cogeco.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:21:06 -0400

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:57 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:45:25 EDT
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #25 - 2002

 >><snip>

 >>>PENNSYLVANIA ERRATICALLY MOVING STAR

 >>>GETTYSBURG -- Also on Saturday, June 1, 2002, a third year
 >>>medical student and her boyfriend were lying on a blanket on the
 >>>Gettysburg Battlefield just up the hill from her former college.
 >>>At 10:00 PM, the witnesses noticed that lights or stars were
 >>>moving around the sky past a tall lookout tower.

 ><snip>
 >
 >>>George, List:

 >>>This is obviously a garden veriety example of >autokinetic motion
 >>>of the eye muscles. For an example, go >outside tonight as soon
 >>>as it's dark and if the sky is clear look to the >West for
 >>>brilliant Venus. Stare at it for a minute or so >and you will see
 >>>the famous "falling leaf effect" of the last Allen >Hynek.

 ><snip>

 >>Howdy Mr. Young & All,

 >>I've been looking up into the sky since my childhood, and not
 >>once have I ever seen or experienced this "autokinetic motion"
 >>which you keep bringing up. Maybe your eyes work differently
 >>than mine.

 >>The only thing that I've noticed is that now I'm in my 40's I
 >>need to either wear my glasses or look through binoculars in
 >>order to check anything out in detail. Otherwise the stars
 >>remain stationary and fixed, as they should. The only things I
 >>see moving around up there are usually airplanes or satellites,
 >>or the occasional shooting star.

 >>My one UFO sighting involved an object which vanished in front
 >>of my eyes after collapsing into a tiny dot first, like an old
 >>TV set shutting off. That was no aircraft from this world, and
 >>it wasn't "autokinetic motion" either.

 >As an experiment, I stood outside on a dark nite at work
 >(sneaking a cigarette) and pretended I was some dolt who just
 >finished his first UFO book, article, or television spectacle.

 >Some bright planet was visible, probably Venus or Jupiter. I
 >stared at it, and it was stationary with respect to the dimmer
 >stars.

 >Then I shifted over a few feet so a tall tree nearly got in the
 >way. _Then_ I noted a slight back and forth motion, not really
 >"falling leaf", but noticeable .. and it was in perfect rhythm
 >to my weight shifting back and forth from one foot to the other.
 >I suppose that helps the circulation in tired feet.

 >Furthermore, my middle-aged eyes made this planet look rather
 >oval in shape, more so in one eye than the other. ( I should
 >really pop for prescription lenses.)
 >
 >This 'ovoid' was stretched out from left to right as if squished
 >from above and below. I let myself 'see' a glowing flying saucer
 >in effect, for a little while.
 >
 >Then I blinked and resumed by usual self, the one that knows
 >damn well this was a planet. Not everybody does that of course,
 >and that is why I am very, very suspicious of "nite-lite"
 >reports via the internet etc.
 >
 >Sightings reports must be filtered if we are ever going to
 >discern the signal in all that noise. The trick for me at least,
 >is to carefully scan the observer's description; reading between
 >the lines so to speak.

 >This gets very tedious. Makes me thirsty. [ burp!]

Dear All,

Mr. Young Bob and some others on this freekwency love to use
'autokinetic' motion with which to describe moving lights. Not
that the phenomena does not exist. It does, most likely.

However autokinetic motion does not explain a dim star (to a dim
bulb like me) moving around in a zig-zag pattern covering an
area half the size of the moon.

In night time competitive shooting, in daylight, in the dark
room at NASA Goddard, in the sky, I've never had autokinetic
motion as an experience. But I have seen objects move in a most
_irregular_ and _wide area_ pattern on some occasions.

This is a calibrated eyeball I got me. Like my ears, which can
still send 40 WPM of international Morse Code to my brain and
understand it. This ain't no autokinetic motion. Which by the
by, is the standard skeptibunkies' standard for anything which
moves.

Not so.

Key words here are thalf the width of a full moon whilst all about
are stationary and which all about are being passed and gassed
by that single, most extraordinary pelican at high altitude.

Eh?

Jim






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              Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:01:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Mortellaro


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:10:01 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:08:47 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 ><snip>

 >>I hate to disagree with a fello Grippler, but I do. This List
 >>consists of researchers who should be hearing about what is
 >>happening in the abduction community. That is their purpose
 >>in'it? To keep informed? Or is it to commisserate with each
 >>other on the state of ufology only amongst themselves?

 >With two Lists, presumably, those researchers interested in both
 >of these topics could subscribe to both. The issues of UFO
 >craft, and abductions, which includes abductions by apparent
 >miltary personnel, are different enough, for example, that a
 >database structure for one would not be useful to store and
 >analyze info for the other.

 >As to commiseration, there is no need for a list to do that, we
 >all have off-list email capability.


Dearest Eleanor, List and EBK,

Let's take it even further. Let's let Errol run three lists, one
for the researcher, one for the abductee and one for the
skeptics. And, if we, the listers wish, perhaps we can let
everyone participate in everything, making Errol's job even
easier.

Course, it would be quite nice if we (as the beauty contest lady
contestant, a blond I perceive, said) 'could all be friends,'
then it wouldn't matter, eh?

Personally, this dood thinks the entire idea is as logical as
Pelican f*rts.


But that's just my take on it.

Jim







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   Jun > Jun 24

             Argentine's SENASA Will Make Initial Reports Known

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:43:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:47:34 -0400
Subject: Argentine's SENASA Will Make Initial Reports Known

SOURCE: Diario "La Nacion" de Argentina
DATE: June 24, 2002

SENASA TO MAKE INITIAL REPORTS KNOWN

** The sanitary agency conducted investigations in the Pampan
regions where the dead animals turned up**

The National Health and Agroalimentary Service (SENASA) shall
release initial reports on its survey of the investigations
conducted over the weekend in regard to mutilated bovine cases
in various Pampan provinces. This comes from qualified
spokespersons of the agency's director, Bernardo Can=E9, who
personally toured the areas reported as epicenters for mutilated
animals.

 From the start, when these strange mutilations first appeared,
the province of Buenos Aires was the hardest hit, at locations
so remote that it was necessary to cover long distances on all
terrain pickup trucks and some stretches on horseback.

Subsequently, the phenomenon, which is still unexplained, took
place in Rio Negro, Cordoba, Rosario and La Pampa, according to
reports that reached Senasa. As a result of consultations with
veterinarians and technicians in areas adjacent to the
mutilation sites, the possibility that the events were related
to predators or carrion animals was discarded, since the
affected areas did not betray the presence of such carrion
birds.

Surveys in hand, Bernardo Can=E9 and a team of scientists--
including three from the National Atomic Energy Commission--
toured the regions and SENASA reported that this afternoon it
will have an initial evaluation on the subject, although the
official's collaborators said they had "no information" in this
regard. It was only said that it was possible that it may be
SENASA's own director who makes the serious situation known--a
situation which has caused considerable losses to cattlemen and
has given rise to fear among them and national authorites due to
the mysterious way in which the events have developed.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2002, Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.






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                  Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley

From: Matt Hurley <m.hurley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:43:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:48:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic - Hurley


 >From: Matt Hurley <m.hurley@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>>
 >Subject: Re: Playing With '42 LA UFO Pic
 >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:29:52 +0100


 >Some of you may not be aware that this 1942 LA photo was
 >published in Tim Godd's 1987 book Above Top Secret

 >Matt

 >Historical Artwork and UFOs by Matthew Hurley

 >http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.hurley


 >Thanks for that info Matt! :) Is it the same pic as the LA
 >Times, with the light beams trimmed? Or is it the original with
 >the beams extending beyond the lighted object?

It's the same as the LA Times pic. Good describes the photo as
"damaged and retouched"

 >I'm not quite convinced on the Egyptologist's Abydos
 >explaination myself! Did she comment on the  insectiod entity in
 >the tomb of Ptahhotpe in Mastabas, North Saqqara.
Haven't seen any comments from Egyptologists on the insectoid entity


 >Also, didn't you have a pic of the original Gullivers Travels
 >cover depicting the flying island? Why did you remove it? Or did
 >I see it elswhere in my travels? It makes me want to read the
 >original version, maybe the Author was an abductee?

I removed Gulliver. You've probably seen an older version of my
site. One of a number of copies floating around on the net

The author could have been an abductee. My own personal feeling
is that a lot of the major players in Ufology are abductees.
Might explain their deep zeal for the subject


Regards

Matt







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                    Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:11:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:50:15 -0400
Subject: Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen


Hi List

Are times changing, or is it my imagination ?? (at least with
some). Today while picking up my mail I was stopped by the mayor
of our town, - Huston, British Columbia - he asked me about what
was my involvement with UFOs, I was filled him in on what
reports have come in from our area, plus others areas here in
the northwest. To my surprise he said to me, "what can we do to
help you???". Talk about almost falling over. So I have been
invited to the next council meeting to discuss the subject with
all of the members of the council about what it is I am doing,
also talking about all the reports I have received. Again the
kicker was, what can they all do to help me.

So this should be interesting for me and them all. I will let
you know the outcome once all is done.

I thought this was rather cool.

Take care

Brian
HBCC UFO






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   Jun > Jun 24

              Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:51:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:56:58 -0400
Subject: Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Randle


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco
 >Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:48:32 -0300

Stan, List, All -

<snip>

 >Does anybody know how long was spent in
 >Roswell by any other of the "Researchers" and also how much time
 >was actually spent reviewing those supposedly declassified
 >Roswell Documents at the Archives?

There were documents that I have been chasing since the summer
of 1997. I have the documentation to prove this, including the
letters from the SECAF office telling me their policy on UFOs,
which of course, I didn't want to hear and had not asked about.
I followed these documents through several agencies, finally
locating them at NARA, and telling the people there they had
them. NARA thought I should ask SECAF for them.

In my case, I arrived at NARA about eight in the morning. The
producers had arranged for the documents to be waiting for me
and I spent the morning going through the nine boxes (two others
held video tapes and I already had a list of the tapes so I knew
what they were... FUFOR witness interviews, for example... this
is what we get for cooperating with the AF Roswell
investigation.)

Another of the boxes contained the record of a court martial
that had nothing to do with UFOs. In 1957 a colonel (doctor) was
having unlawful carnal knowledge of a nurse, who, according to
the transcript, was not the brightest bulb in the display.

That left eight boxes... they contained many of the formerly
classified research materials that we have all seen... balloon
research, ejection system research... and other R & D projects.
This has some impact on the UFO case simply because these
classified projects could have held the explanation for what was
found... but they did not.

There were many copies of reports, interviews, and letters, from
McAndrew to various people. I think I found the Cavitt interview
a dozen times in various boxes and filed in folders. There was a
letter from McAndrew suggesting a testimonial dinner for Charles
Moore because of all his help. I hope that we, as taxpayers,
didn't have to spring for that.

Many of the letters were from McAndrew to various people and AF
organizations in his quest for information. Some of that made no
sense to me because it was clear that the organization would
have no info that would be relevant.

In the search of these eight boxes (remember two had video tapes
and the third held only the court martial) I found only enough
interesting information to occupy four pages of notes... one of
those was a classified evaluation of Blanchard by Ramey that
should end this nonsense that Blanchard was a loose cannon. Here
was Ramey's chance to sabotage Blanchard in a classified report
to Curtis LeMay, one that Blanchard would never know had been
made, and Ramey praises the man... this two years _after_ the
"balloon" crash. (Please note the quotes making it a sacastic
remark... everyone should know by now that I can be quite
sarcastic and am most of the time. I don't want anyone thinking
I buy the balloon story.)

There was nothing in those files that provided any real answers.
They were not recently declassified, Indigo Films ( at 999
Anderson Drive, Suite 110, San Rafael, CA  94901) had to know
that.

I knew, after only a couple of hours that these were not all of
what I had wanted, that contrary to what the host of the show
said, these were not recently declassified, and Indigo Films had
no exclusivity. Anyone who wanted could go to NARA and see the
stuff. Indigo was a little surprised when I told them what was
in the files and read to them from the index (which existed
because I asked NARA to inventory the material).

I spent three days going through the stuff to be thorough. I
wasn't given any white gloves to wear but there was no need for
that, other than show. I was interviewed for about three hours
and you saw how much of the stuff they used. Although it wasn't
clear at the time, from things that Karl has said since, it was
clear that I was on board so they could look balanced but they
communicated with him and only called me when no one else could
answer their questions.

Stan, I hope this is what you need, and if you have any specific
questions that might not be of interest to the List, let me
know.


KRandle







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                Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:57:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:58:12 -0400
Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Kaeser


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:15:15 -0400
 >Subject: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting

<snip>

 >According to [UFO activist Peter] Gersten, Arnold's original
 >account refers to nine 'bright objects' without 'tails' that
 >fluttered and tipped their 'wings.' Arnold's illustration of one
 >of the craft even indicates that it was crescent-shaped. 'The
 >clincher,' says Gersten, 'is a photograph taken in the late
 >Forties showing nine of these flying wings on a runway in
 >California.

 >Arnold himself thought he saw something the government was
 >testing. That was everybody's first thought.'"

Hi Loren,

Aviation author, Don Berliner (currently Chairman of the Fund
for UFO Research) checked his records and indicates the planes
shown in that famous photograph never actually flew.

Don found that only one of the big ones (USAAF #42-13603) had
flown by 6/24/47, the date of Arnold's sighting.  He also found
that the nine photographed on the flight line were broken up
prior to completion, as funding had run out.

"There were three photographed in formation, but they were all
piston-engined B-35s and had to strain to reach 400 mph.  They
were then converted into jet B-49s, the first of those flying on
10/21/47.  They were good for 500 mph, not 1,700 mph."

Records are certainly available to review the history of the
Flying Wing, and I think it's highly unlikely that they were the
cause of Arnold's sighting.

Steve








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   Jun > Jun 25

                   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Lewis

From: Duncan Lewis <iveslewis@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:14:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Lewis


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:59:45 -0300

 >>From: Glenn Campbell <campbell@ufomind.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:00 -0700
 >>Subject: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>By Glenn Campbell

 >>I am happily retired from the Area 51 field and am currently
 >>enjoying a blissfully UFO-free lifestyle, but one issue won't
 >>leave me alone: People keep asking me about Bob Lazar. True or
 >>False: Did he work with flying saucers at "Area S-4"?

 ><snip>

 >It is good to hear from Glenn Campbell again. For those who want
 >more on the falsifications of Bob Lazar I would recommend my
 >piece on my website:

 >www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

Dear Mr. Friedman:

Thank you for the link to your website. I had not visited in
some time, and greatly enjoyed clicking through. Great challenge
to the Air Force, to debate anywhere, anytime.

Regarding Lazar, I have never given him much credibility. I
recently read a book called "The Missing Times" by independent
Seattle journalist Terry Hansen. Using the UFO visitations at
the strategic missile silos near Malmstrom, Montana as a
starting point, the book is a good history lesson in how the
military and intelligence communities manage information on
matters related to national security, primarily through
censorship and propaganda. Reading this book greatly affected my
view of our "free" press, and I highly recommend it.

I thought about Lazar after I finished the book. I wondered if
he could be an example of how the government might choose to
release some accurate information through a highly unreliable
source. I find it useful to role-play a little to speculate on
how intelligence operatives might act if they believed there was
a risk that ultimately, the truth about area 51 would be exposed
through a reliable source.

If I were in that position, I might intentionally seek someone
out who has a history of personal grandiosity. Find someone who
has a demonstrated history of claiming degrees or associations
they don't actually have. The person would also need a penchant
for telling falsehoods. Throw in some embarassing personal
behavior and you have the ideal person to take to Area 51, show
them around, and then sit back and watch the fun. After his
disclosures, it would be easy to destroy his credibility, for
his credibility problems would be the reason he was chosen in
the first place. He also would harm the credibility of anyone in
the future who corroborated his claims; they would be seen as
simply piggybacking on his descriptions.

I'm not actually endorsing this. However, the history lesson I
received in reading "The Missing Times" demonstrated for me the
brilliance and intricacy of our intelligence and
counter- intelligence operations since WWII, based largely on
British practices dating back to WWI. The ultimate beauty of
such a plan is that it could probably be done, and no one would
be the wiser.

Ultimately I believe the time is long past to put the Lazar
story to rest. His credibility is sufficiently damaged that it
cannot be reconstructed, so it doesn't really matter if there
are elements of truth to it or not. Whether he is merely fantasy
prone or a sad pawn of a dark interest within our government,
his name now only serves the debunkers.


Duncan Lewis







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   Jun > Jun 25

                   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Gates

From: Rpbert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:05:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:17:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Gates


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?

<snip>

 >You are right in some respect. There is activity out at Papoose
 >Lake whether back-engineered or American-developed craft (as you
 >believe) as sightings continue over the Tikaboo Valley and the
 >latest happened in May where witnessed observed, through
 >binoculars, a large triangular aircraft that flew silently from
 >the Papoose Lake site and along the Jumbled Hills with slow and
 >silent movement. It was also reported that this triangular
 >object could turn on its edge and was surrounded by 'firefly-
 >like' glows.

Bill,

I am curious. Besides ogling the thing with binoculars did
anybody happen to have a video camera on it as well?


Cheers,

Robert








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                   Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:19:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:19:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False? - Hatch


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:13:08 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?

 >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Bob Lazar - True or False?
 >>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:59:45 -0300

 ><snip>

 >>It is good to hear from Glenn Campbell again. For those who want
 >>more on the falsifications of Bob Lazar I would recommend my
 >>piece on my website:

 >>www.-v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

 >Big mistake. leave out the first hyphen. The actual site is

 >www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

 >Sorry about that.



Hello Stan:


I'll go you one better, and provide a link to your page that
people can click on:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sflazar.html

It takes you straight to the Lazar page, worth a read.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: You need the 'http://' part to create a hyperlink.







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                    Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:13:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:22:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Young


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:55:24 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


<snip>

 >However autokinetic motion does not explain a dim star (to a dim
 >bulb like me) moving around in a zig-zag pattern covering an
 >area half the size of the moon.

<snip>

 >Key words here are thalf the width of a full moon whilst all about
 >are stationary and which all about are being passed and gassed
 >by that single, most extraordinary pelican at high altitude.

Hi, Jim:

How, exactly, did you determine that the movement was 1/4
degree?


Bob Young







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                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:55:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:34:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:51:04 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 ><snip>

 >>If the designs
 >>witnessed by Marcel weren't the designs described by Moore, then
 >>it's plausible that the official explanation for them is in
 >>error and that an unconventional aircraft of some sort indeed
 >>crashed near Roswell in 1947.

 >Your assumption here is that Marcel Jr. described them right.
 >You should also mention that it is equally plausable that Marcel
 >Jr. remembered the designs incorrectly, and the debris was
 >indeed a NYU Rawin as described by Moore.

Shouldn't, anytime anybody says the NYU Rawin balloon, it be
pointed out that the very closest, in theory, that the so called
expert could get the balloon to the debris field is 17 or so
miles?

So no matter what, the theory is still 17 miles short... kind of
like horse shoes and hand gernades..... :)


Cheers,

Robert







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                           Re: Lazar Movie - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:58:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:37:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Lazar Movie - Gates


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 00:45:37 +0100
 >Subject: Lazar Movie


 >I've had the following letter from Graham Birdsall, editor of
 >the UK UFO Magazine with some interesting background on Bruce
 >Burgess and his new Lazar movie.

<anip>

 >CORRESPONDENCE TO: David Haith
 >E-mail: visions@ntlworld.com

 >Date: 6 June 2002

 >To: Dave Haith

 >Subject: New Lazar movie

 >Dear Dave,

 >I was interested to learn that Bob Lazar has signed a deal with
 >UK based Bluebook Films to turn his story into a feature film.
 >More so when it was stated that Bluebook Films founder, Bruce
 >Burgess, 'is the only one to date that is truly making an effort
 >to stick to the facts and not create just another Hollywood
 >fantasy.'

One wonders if the movie will cover the various problems about
his diplomas, and other issues....

Cheers,

Robert






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               Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:12:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:43:12 -0400
Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Maccabee


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:15:15 -0400
 >Subject: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting


 >55th Birthday of the First "Flying Saucer" Sighting - June 24,
 >1947

 >What parts of the history of this event have been forgotten?

 >There is "...the notion that at least one of the objects seen by
 >Kenneth Arnold over Washington State on June 24, 1947, was a
 >Northrop flying wing.

 >According to [UFO activist Peter] Gersten, Arnold's original
 >account refers to nine 'bright objects' without 'tails' that
 >fluttered and tipped their 'wings.' Arnold's illustration of one
 >of the craft even indicates that it was crescent-shaped. 'The
 >clincher,' says Gersten, 'is a photograph taken in the late
 >Forties showing nine of these flying wings on a runway in
 >California.

 >Arnold himself thought he saw something the government was
 >testing. That was everybody's first thought.'"

 >page 108 in

 >Swamp Gas Times by Patrick Huyghe

I guess Loren hasn't been keeping up with the literature. (We
have to forgive Huyghe because he was writing before the "final
answer" was known.)

A little birdie told Jim Easton that the solution is....
pelicans.

(for a complete analysis of the Arnold sighting and explanations
see:

http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html)

Also, before I forget, celebrate the 50th anniversary of General
Samford's romp and stomp on ufology....

During the first week of June there were 20 sightings
During the SECOND week of June there were 19 sightings.
During the THIRD wee of June there were 35 sightings

Then, on

June 22, 4
June 23, 11 sighting reports,
June 24, 3 reports,

Let's see, now...that about brings us up to date... in the Year
1952, that is... the Year of the UFO!!!

Why not travel with me back in time to when ufology was young
and, perhaps, find out some answers to pressing questions! (For
those of you new to UFO studies this will be an valuable
historical survey.) Find out the connection between Marilyn and
"interplanetary visitors" (you know which Marilyn... and I don't
mean Manson!). Find out what the FBI found out... what the CIA
found out and what they did not find out. Learn why our world
changed a little that year.....

In 3 short months (June, July and August) the Air Force
collected about 1700 sightitng reports. Many of these were
multiple witness reports. Later analysis (Special Report #14)
suggested that these witnesses saw about 900 different objects.
Furthermore, after analysis by experts, 186 of these objects
were found to be unexplainable ("Unknown").

Why wasn't this sufficient to convince everyone that something
strange was going on? We now know that some at the upper levels
of the Air Force were seriously considering the (gulp!)
Interplanetary Hypothesis!!

So why did General Samford, at his large press conference
on July 29, slam the lid down when he could have done the opposite?
Why are we stuck in the "tradition" that there is nothing to
UFO sightings?

Read:

http://brumac.8k.com/1952YEAROFUFO/1952YEAROFUFO.html

and find out (?) !

Oh yes, not that I want to get ahead of myself, but


June 25, 9 reports, etc.

(preview of coming attractions:

July 17 15 reports,
July 21 12 sighting reports
July 22 25
July 23 28
July 29 General Samford's press conference.....

The General states the official position of Air Force
Intelligence. "all natural phenomena....."

BUT WHY did Air Force Intelligence tell the FBI that some top AF
officials were considering "interplanetary craft" ?

Did General Samford lie to the American people? (Cover up?)







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   Jun > Jun 25

              Re: Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:06:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:45:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen - Jones


 >From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Speaking Before The Mayor & Aldermen
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:11:11 -0700

Good Morning Brian,

 >Hi List

 >Are times changing, or is it my imagination ?? (at least with
 >some). Today while picking up my mail I was stopped by the mayor
 >of our town, - Huston, British Columbia - he asked me about what
 >was my involvement with UFOs, I was filled him in on what
 >reports have come in from our area, plus others areas here in
 >the northwest. To my surprise he said to me, "what can we do to
 >help you???". Talk about almost falling over. So I have been
 >invited to the next council meeting to discuss the subject with
 >all of the members of the council about what it is I am doing,
 >also talking about all the reports I have received. Again the
 >kicker was, what can they all do to help me.

 >So this should be interesting for me and them all. I will let
 >you know the outcome once all is done.

 >I thought this was rather cool.

I'd kinda agree <g>


Congrats, and I hope it goes well.

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







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             Re: Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 06:03:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:49:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe - Kaeser


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:56:22 +0200
 >Subject: Scotland Top UFO Hotspot Of The Globe

 >Source: The Observer

 >http://observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,742352,00.html

 >Stig

 >***

 >Passing UFOs make beeline for Scotland

 >Stephen Khan, Scotland editor
 >Sunday June 23, 2002
 >The Observer

I saw this story on CNN as well, and here's the article they've posted
to their web site:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/24/scotland.aliens.reut/index.html


Steve







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               Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:47:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:51:01 -0400
Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Friedman


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:57:30 -0400

 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:15:15 -0400
 >>Subject: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting

 ><snip>

 >>According to [UFO activist Peter] Gersten, Arnold's original
 >>account refers to nine 'bright objects' without 'tails' that
 >>fluttered and tipped their 'wings.' Arnold's illustration of one
 >>of the craft even indicates that it was crescent-shaped. 'The
 >>clincher,' says Gersten, 'is a photograph taken in the late
 >>Forties showing nine of these flying wings on a runway in
 >>California.

 >>Arnold himself thought he saw something the government was
 >>testing. That was everybody's first thought.'"

 >Aviation author, Don Berliner (currently Chairman of the Fund
 >for UFO Research) checked his records and indicates the planes
 >shown in that famous photograph never actually flew.

 >Don found that only one of the big ones (USAAF #42-13603) had
 >flown by 6/24/47, the date of Arnold's sighting.  He also found
 >that the nine photographed on the flight line were broken up
 >prior to completion, as funding had run out.

 >"There were three photographed in formation, but they were all
 >piston-engined B-35s and had to strain to reach 400 mph.  They
 >were then converted into jet B-49s, the first of those flying on
 >10/21/47.  They were good for 500 mph, not 1,700 mph."

 >Records are certainly available to review the history of the
 >Flying Wing, and I think it's highly unlikely that they were the
 >cause of Arnold's sighting.


Must strongly agree with Steve here. I got to know John Northrop
the inventor/developer of the flying wing when I lived in
Southern California 1970-1975. He was very interested in UFOs,
actually brought me in to Santa Barbara to give a presentation
at his club. He also told me of a sighting by one of his Flying
Wing pilots. The flying wings also didn't fly the same kind of
flight pattern as described by Arnold.


Stan Friedman







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                     CAUS PRESS RELEASE: Bryant Vs. NARA

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:18:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:59:30 -0400
Subject: CAUS PRESS RELEASE: Bryant Vs. NARA


Citizens Against UFO Secrecy

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

CONTACT:  Larry W. Bryant
CAUS Washington, D.C., Office
3518 Martha Custis Drive
Alexandria, VA  22302
(Phone: 703-931-3341; e-mail:
overtci@cavtel.net)


New FOIA Lawsuit Challenges the UFO-E.T.-Coverup Status Quo

No single government official, or group of officials, has the
authority to withhold from public view hard evidence of the
extraterrestrial presence.

That premise lies at the heart of UFO researcher Larry W.
Bryant's latest freedom-of-information lawsuit, aimed at helping
free up such evidence from its confines at the U. S. National
Archives and Records Administration in Washington.  Filed in U.
S. District Court for the District of Columbia, the case --
  Larry W. Bryant v. National Archives and Records Administration
(Civil Action No. 02-1259 ) -- focuses on what may be the
"smoking gun" of the official UFO-E.T. coverup:  a "SECRET" July
17, 1947, NARA-housed memorandum (with some related tabbed
enclosures) announcing the forthcoming 14th meeting of an
interagency panel called the Intelligence Advisory Board (see
photo-copy on obverse of this press release).

"Does the memo's totally censored agenda item No. 3 pertain to
the early-July 1947 Roswell, N.M. [UFO-E.T. crash/retrieval]
Incident?" Bryant asked.  "If it does -- and if it also confirms
existence of the supersecret post-Roswell damage-control group
called Majestic-Twelve [see: http://www.majesticdocuments.com] -
- then how much more evidence do we need to show ourselves that
behind all this revelatory SMOKE lies a BONFIRE of official
deception, stonewalling, and other abuse of authority?"

Bryant noted that the lawsuit's filing date of June 24, 2002,
coincides with the 55th anniversary of the modern era of UFO
awareness.

The worldwide public interest in this disclosure contest has had
to cope with several months of delay tactics from such quarters
as the Central Intelligence Agency and the State Department.
  Accordingly, Bryant's choice of counsel in this case -- Mark S.
Zaid of Washington, D.C. (phone:  202-371-6626, Ext. 19) --
  couldn't be more apropos.  "Mr. Zaid's track record as the
nation's premier litigator in the realm of national-security
affairs speaks for itself," Bryant explained.

With this lawsuit, the government once again has the opportunity
to come clean on what it knows (and when it knew it) about UFO-
E.T. reality. "Mr. Zaid and I welcome receiving whatever useful
material, commentary, and leads that might come our way during
this litigation -- including additional evidence from UFO-
coverup whistleblowers," Bryant concluded.

NOTE TO EDITORS: The remainder of this e-message contains the
text of the lawsuit's complaint, as follows:

COMPLAINT

This is an action under the Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA"),
5 U.S.C. =A7 552 et seq., as amended, for the disclosure of agency
records improperly withheld from plaintiff Larry W. Bryant by
defendant National Archives and Records Administration.

JURISDICTION

1. This Court has both subject matter jurisdiction over this
action and personal jurisdiction over the defendant pursuant to
5 U.S.C. =A7 552(a)(4)(B) and 28 U.S.C. =A7 1331.

VENUE

2. Venue is appropriate under 5 U.S.C. =A7 552(a)(4)(B) and 28
U.S.C. =A7 1391.

PARTIES

3. Plaintiff Larry W. Bryant ("Bryant") is a specialist in
collecting, analyzing, and publicly disseminating official
government documentation on the controversy surrounding reported
Unidentified Flying Objects ("UFO").  He currently directs the
Washington, D. C., office of the public-interest group Citizens
Against UFO Secrecy.  He resides in the Commonwealth of
Virginia.

4. Defendant National Archives and Records Administration
("NARA") is an agency within the meaning of 5 U.S.C. =A7 552 (e)
and is in possession and/or control of the records requested by
Bryant which are the subject of this action.

BACKGROUND

5. In 2001, UFO researchers discovered within NARA's holdings at
College Park, Maryland, an Intelligence Advisory Board ("IAB")
Agenda (with its related tabbed enclosures) for a meeting
scheduled for July 17, 1947. This record may very well
constitute the "smoking gun" of evidence confirming three
elements of the so-called official cover-up of UFO-E.T. reality:
(1) the now-famous crash-landing, military retrieval, and
government-industry technological analysis/exploitation of an
alleged alien spacecraft near Roswell, New Mexico, in early July
1947; (2) the post-Roswell formation of a supersecret panel --
  "Majestic-Twelve" -- comprised of 12 seasoned military and
industrial officials chartered by President Truman to manage the
government's further
acquisition/analysis/exploitation/sequestration of UFO-E.T.
artifacts (to include official bio-medical and forensic research
on the origin, nature, and culture of the retrieved "UFOnauts");
(3) the behind-the-scenes UFO-E.T.-crash/retrieval operations
conducted by a U.S. Army-acknowledged counterintelligence
organization called the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit -- an
organization expressly revealed and discussed by certain
"leaked" MJ-12 documents.

6. The Roswell Incident has been the subject of widespread
public interest for years.  The first publicized story of July
8, 1947, reported that the Intelligence Officer of the 509th
Bomb Group, stationed at Roswell AAF, Major Jesse A. Marcel, had
recovered a "flying disc" from the range lands of an
unidentified rancher in the vicinity of Roswell and that the
disc had been "flown to higher headquarters."  That same story
also reported that a Roswell couple claimed to have seen a large
unidentified object fly by their home on July 2, 1947.  On July
9, 1947, the local paper noted that Brigadier General Roger
Ramey, Commander of the Eighth Air Force at Forth Worth, Texas,
stated that upon examination the debris recovered by Marcel was
determined to be a weather balloon.

7. In July 1994, the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force
concluded a search for records in response to a General
Accounting Office ("GAO") inquiry about the event.  The focus of
the GAO probe, initiated at the request of a member of Congress,
was to determine if the U.S. Air Force, or any other U. S.
government agency, possessed information on the alleged crash
and recovery of an extraterrestrial vehicle and its alien
occupants near Roswell, N.M., in July 1947.

8. The 1994 Air Force report concluded that the predecessor to
the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Army Air Forces, had recovered
debris from an Army Air Forces balloon-borne research project
code-named MOGUL.  This report contended that many of the
accounts of alien bodies appeared to be descriptions of
unclassified and widely publicized Air Force scientific
achievements.  Still other descriptions of "bodies" were alleged
to have been actual incidents in which Air Force members were
killed or injured in the line of duty.  However, many
researchers still continue to claim that not only was debris
from an alien spacecraft recovered, but also the bodies of the
craft's alien occupants.

9. There is no dispute, however, that something happened near
Roswell in July 1947, since it was reported in a number of
contemporary newspaper articles; the most famous of which were
the July 8th and July 9th editions of the Roswell Daily Record.
  The July 8th edition reported that "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer
on Ranch in Roswell Region," while the next day's edition
reported, "Ramey Empties Roswell Saucer" and "Harassed Rancher
Who Located 'Saucer' Sorry He Told About It."

10. Despite various government-issued explanations for the
Roswell Incident, a series of related whistleblower-leaked
documentation has raised serious, persistent questions about the
government's veracity, motives, policies, and practices
surrounding this event of far-reaching, worldwide socio-
political importance.  Consequently, researchers' unfettered,
prompt access to the withheld information can help the public
determine how much of that information does, in fact, pertain to
the Roswell Incident.  The IAB memo's meeting-agenda item No. 3,
still classified SECRET after 55 years, merits widespread
dissemination, analysis, and debate -- particularly since the
14th IAB meeting would have been the most opportune time for
such a high-level body to review evidence related to the Roswell
Incident.

COUNT ONE

11. By letter dated September 14, 2001, Bryant submitted to NARA
a signed printout of an e-mail-formatted letter that he had
characterized as an FOIA Appeal, but which was treated by NARA
as a FOIA request, for an unredacted copy of the one-page agenda
for the July 17, 1947, meeting of the IAB, as well as its
enclosures. Upon information and belief, the pages in question
are contained in Record Group 353, Entry 411-413, Box 96.

12. By letter dated September 25, 2001, NARA acknowledged
receipt of Bryant's request/appeal and assigned it tracking
number NW01-0906.

13. NARA has failed to comply with the requisite statutory
periods that govern compliance under FOIA with respect to
Bryant's request. Therefore, NARA has wrongfully withheld
information from Bryant.

14. Bryant has constructively exhausted all required
administrative remedies.

15. Bryant has a legal right under the FOIA to obtain the
information he seeks, and there is no legal basis for the denial
by NARA of said right.


WHEREFORE, plaintiff Larry W. Bryant prays that this Court:

(1) Order the National Archives and Records Administration to
disclose the requested information in its entirety and make
copies promptly available to him;

(2) award reasonable costs and attorney's fees as provided in 5
U.S.C. 552 (a)(4)(E) and/or 28 U.S.C. =A7 2412 (d);

(3) expedite this action in every way pursuant to 28 U.S.C. =A7
1657 (a); and

(4) grant such other relief as the Court may deem just and
proper.







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             Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:06:46 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:10:08 -0400
Subject: Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco - Friedman


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:51:07 EDT
 >Subject: Re: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco

 >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: US History Channel's Roswell Fiasco
 >>Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:48:32 -0300

 >Stan, List, All -

 ><snip>

 >>Does anybody know how long was spent in
 >>Roswell by any other of the "Researchers" and also how much time
 >>was actually spent reviewing those supposedly declassified
 >>Roswell Documents at the Archives?

 >There were documents that I have been chasing since the summer
 >of 1997. I have the documentation to prove this, including the
 >letters from the SECAF office telling me their policy on UFOs,
 >which of course, I didn't want to hear and had not asked about.
 >I followed these documents through several agencies, finally
 >locating them at NARA, and telling the people there they had
 >them. NARA thought I should ask SECAF for them.

 >In my case, I arrived at NARA about eight in the morning. The
 >producers had arranged for the documents to be waiting for me
 >and I spent the morning going through the nine boxes (two others
 >held video tapes and I already had a list of the tapes so I knew
 >what they were... FUFOR witness interviews, for example... this
 >is what we get for cooperating with the AF Roswell
 >investigation.)

 >Another of the boxes contained the record of a court martial
 >that had nothing to do with UFOs. In 1957 a colonel (doctor) was
 >having unlawful carnal knowledge of a nurse, who, according to
 >the transcript, was not the brightest bulb in the display.

 >That left eight boxes... they contained many of the formerly
 >classified research materials that we have all seen... balloon
 >research, ejection system research... and other R & D projects.
 >This has some impact on the UFO case simply because these
 >classified projects could have held the explanation for what was
 >found... but they did not.

 >There were many copies of reports, interviews, and letters, from
 >McAndrew to various people. I think I found the Cavitt interview
 >a dozen times in various boxes and filed in folders. There was a
 >letter from McAndrew suggesting a testimonial dinner for Charles
 >Moore because of all his help. I hope that we, as taxpayers,
 >didn't have to spring for that.

 >Many of the letters were from McAndrew to various people and AF
 >organizations in his quest for information. Some of that made no
 >sense to me because it was clear that the organization would
 >have no info that would be relevant.

 >In the search of these eight boxes (remember two had video tapes
 >and the third held only the court martial) I found only enough
 >interesting information to occupy four pages of notes... one of
 >those was a classified evaluation of Blanchard by Ramey that
 >should end this nonsense that Blanchard was a loose cannon. Here
 >was Ramey's chance to sabotage Blanchard in a classified report
 >to Curtis LeMay, one that Blanchard would never know had been
 >made, and Ramey praises the man... this two years _after_ the
 >"balloon" crash. (Please note the quotes making it a sacastic
 >remark... everyone should know by now that I can be quite
 >sarcastic and am most of the time. I don't want anyone thinking
 >I buy the balloon story.)

 >There was nothing in those files that provided any real answers.
 >They were not recently declassified, Indigo Films ( at 999
 >Anderson Drive, Suite 110, San Rafael, CA  94901) had to know
 >that.

 >I knew, after only a couple of hours that these were not all of
 >what I had wanted, that contrary to what the host of the show
 >said, these were not recently declassified, and Indigo Films had
 >no exclusivity. Anyone who wanted could go to NARA and see the
 >stuff. Indigo was a little surprised when I told them what was
 >in the files and read to them from the index (which existed
 >because I asked NARA to inventory the material).

 >I spent three days going through the stuff to be thorough. I
 >wasn't given any white gloves to wear but there was no need for
 >that, other than show. I was interviewed for about three hours
 >and you saw how much of the stuff they used. Although it wasn't
 >clear at the time, from things that Karl has said since, it was
 >clear that I was on board so they could look balanced but they
 >communicated with him and only called me when no one else could
 >answer their questions.

 >Stan, I hope this is what you need, and if you have any specific
 >questions that might not be of interest to the List, let me
 >know.


Thanks much , Kevin. What I would like to find out is whether
any of their "experts" spent much time reviewing the documents,
or going to Roswell, or just showed up for the videotaping. Dr.
Park has been a noisy negativist for a long time and showed his
ignorance of Roswell in his debunking book Voodoo Science.

Elliston has written about government coverups, but again no
indication that any of the people had read your books or mine,
been to Roswell,talked to witnesses, etc I will try to reach
Indigo.

Strange thing is I had dealt with many of the false government
explanations in a paper 'Roswell Incident, USAF, and NY Times'
and in my review of 'The Roswell Report: Case Closed".


Thanks,

Stan Friedman







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   Jun > Jun 25

                               UFOn UK Returns

From: Anthony Chippendale <anthony@thechippendales.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:16:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:12:20 -0400
Subject: UFOn UK Returns


The UFO Network UK has returned! After a rather long absence the
UFOn UK website is back in action at:

http://www.ufon.org.uk

*Hosted on a new, high-power server

*New Look!

*New news page carrying latest UK UFO news

*Events page - if you have or know of an upcoming UFO event in
the UK let us know and we can list it for you!

Be sure to bookmark the site as new articles and information
will be coming online all the time.


Regards,

Anthony Chippendale
The UFO Network UK
http://www.ufon.org.uk
http://www.anthonyc.net







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                    Pravda - Fifty-Five Years Of Insanity

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:31:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:31:17 -0400
Subject: Pravda - Fifty-Five Years Of Insanity

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/24/30993.html


16:46 2002-06-24

FIFTY-FIVE YEARS OF INSANITY

Today is a historical day for humanity: 55 years ago, on June
24, 1947, the first publication about unidentified flying
objects (UFO) appeared in the USA.

The publication reported that pilot Kenneth Arnold noticed nine
disk-shaped objects not far from Mount Rainier (Washington
State) when he was searching for a lost plane. The objects were
moving at a speed of over 1,000 miles per hour. Later, the words
of the pilot were confirmed by locals and servicemen.

Soon, more publications dedicated to UFOs appeared in the press.
The US military authorities became very worried about the
objects found in the sky over the USA and adopted a special
project for the investigation of the UFO phenomenon. US
servicemen believed that the flying objects were nothing else
than new spy planes of the Soviet Union.

In the project's network, a special task group was initiated at
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, in January
1948. At the same very time, the Pentagon informed that
appearence of the UFO was caused by one of three reasons: mass
hysteria and hallucinations, fraud, or the wrong interpretation
of familiar objects. The results of the investigation revealed
that, if the UFO existed, it had nothing to do with the USSR.

At the end of the 1940s, another project named Discontent aimed
at the detailed investigation of UFOs and their possible effects
on the US national security was launched. The project was
successfully finished on December 27, 1949 when it was announced
that UFOs posed no danger to the security of the USA.

The results of the investigation of unidentified flying objects
were published in the so-called Blue Book in 1957.

Independently of the Pentagon, the CIA set up a special
commission to study the connections between the UFO phenomenon
and the USSR's intelligence activity regarding the USA. Special
services investigating unidentified flying objects insisted that
the objects discovered in the sky over the USA were elements of
a psychological war of the USSR against the USA. The
investigation was canceled when it was proved that the Soviet
Union had nothing to do with the flying objects.

Thus, we can say that the UFO phenomenon is the result of the
cold war. The atmosphere of fear and distrust of that time and
apocalyptic expectations gave rise to hysteria that, in its
turn, spread myths about extraterrestrial beings visiting the
Earth.

However, official statements did not seem convincing to those
people who supported the theory of extraterrestrial beings
coming to the planet, and, although the theory has not yet been
scientifically confirmed, more and more evidence of the fact
that extraterrestrials do exist appears from time to time. For
example, it was allegedly reported that a flying object crashed
in Roswell, and, once, information appeared about some
mysterious circles on the fields of British farmers (as it
turned later, the farmers made the circles themselves).

Nowadays, the study of extraterrestrial visits is a wonderfully
arranged business and not only the concern for small
enthusiastic groups. Certainly, this fact hampers the objective
investigation of different phenomena that are not yet
scientifically explained. Numerous speculations about UFOs make
the majority of people rather skeptical about these
unaccountable phenomena, not to mention the scientists
investigating. In addition, since the launching of the SETI
project designed for the search of extraterrestrial
civilizations, a signal that could have an artificial origin was
received only once. However, this fact does not mean at all that
the signal really had an artificial origin.

So, no convincing evidence has been found that extraterrestrial
civilizations do exist. At the same time, all unaccountable
phenomena cannot be treated as the forgeries of people craving
sensation. Certainly, all phenomena of this kind should be
closely and objectively studied to prove or disprove existence
of extraterrestrial civilizations.

Vasily Bubnov
PRAVDA.Ru

Translated by Maria Gousseva

-----

UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist for the lead
http://www.anomalist.com/









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   Jun > Jun 25

                           'Pancake Perspectives'

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:21:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:39:45 -0400
Subject: 'Pancake Perspectives'


Jim Aho has published another issue of his Pancake Perspectives,
which he notes is named after a special event:

 >One of Wisconsin's most famous UFO close encounters took place
 >on April 18, 1961. Joe Simonton of Eagle River reported that he
 >was given three pancakes by aliens. Since then, this story has
 >been shared around the world, but if you think about it, the
 >only reason we can even talk about it today is because he had
 >the courage to tell his story in the first place.

 >(Joe Simonton's story:

 >http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r1961_0418_vilas.html

This is one of my favorite stories from the early "flying saucer
occupant" encounter days.  Indeed, I wrote a review of what
exactly these "pancakes" might be...

Click on: "What are you having for breakfast?" at:

http://www.lorencoleman.com


Please pass the syrup,

Loren








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   Jun > Jun 25

                    Uruguay: First Report of Cattle Mutes

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:15:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:49:57 -0400
Subject: Uruguay: First Report of Cattle Mutes


SOURCE: TN NOTICIAS
DATE: June 24, 2002

URUGUAY: First Report of Cattle Mutilations.

The discovery of a dead cow whose tongue, eyes and genitals were
extracted in a livestock region of the Uruguayan interior has
raised concern in the country. Officials have begun an
investigation into the case.

The first case was reported today in the Department (province)
of Durazno, some 300 km from Montevideo ande resembles cases
which have occured in some Argentinean provinces.

Indentent (mayor) Carmelo Vidallin tried to cool down rumors by
saying that "we must await the expert's verdict", referring to
the Ministry of Livestock and Agriculture, which is working at
the site.

"It is remarkable that an animal was slain for purposes other
than eating it," said the mayor, adding that "there are many
hypotheses, because matters are always worse in a small town."

No signs of blood or a struggle between the animal and its
victim were found--a situation that adds mystery and feeds
speculation among local residents.

For the time being, the possibility that obscure esoteric
practices could be at work has not been rejected, since they are
common throughout the country. However, the animals sacrificed
in these rites have been chickens and hens.

==============================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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                  Argentina: SENASA Blames "Rogue Surgeons"

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:05:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:51:43 -0400
Subject: Argentina: SENASA Blames "Rogue Surgeons"

SOURCE: TELAM (News Agency of the Republic of Argentina)
DATE: 06.25.03

MYSTERY

Mutilated Sheep Discovered; Strange Lights Reported. SENASA
Blames Rogue Surgeons


Bah=EDa Blanca, Paran=E1, C=F3rdoba, Santiago del Estero y Santa Fe,
June 24 (T=E9lam).-  A pregnant sheep was found dead and "hollowed
out" in Coronel Pringles, 120 km north of Bahia Blanca, while
new animal mutilation cases were reported in Cordoba and Entre
Rios.

Meanwhile, two girls were hospitalized at Santiago del Estero
due to the impact caused by their sighting of "multicolored
lights" which were also reported by rural residents of the
province of Buenos Aires

However, Bernardo Can=E9, the director of the Agroalimentary
Health and Quality Service (SENASA) attributed the discovery of
mutilated cows, sheep, deer and horses to the actions of "rogue
surgeons" and dismissed the possibility that extraterrestrials
or paranormal phenomena could be involved.

The animal found dead at Coronel Pringles was a "new pregnant
sheep with cuts in the jawbone and missing its tongue and an
eye," according to veterinarian Alberto Sensi, who inspected it
on the property of Juan Carlos Ibarguren, some 85 km from the
provincial seat. There was no sign of rigor mortis. "We found no
tracks or footprints and the rest of the herd was very far from
the hill on which we found the dead animal."

In Darregueria, Guillermo Garcia, foreman of a pasture field in
Susana Torres, Puan district, found the head of a calf
protruding from its mother's abdomen. Both cow and calf had been
mutilated and were missing tongues, eyes and ears: "It's as if
she was giving birth and died in the effort," said a bewildered
Garcia.

Raul, a rural laborer in a pasture field of Carmen de Patagones-
-owned by Miguel Angel Cordoba, where two mutilated animals were
found--claimed having seen "a powerful violet light". Claudia
Scheffer, another local, was inside her house when she witnessed
"an intense light outside while the lights in my house dimmed.
The dogs were barking and I went out. I saw a light in the sky,
as did my family and other neighbors."

Young Gabriela, 7, and Miriam del Valle Salto, 13, will remain
under observation at the La Banda Children's Hospital after the
curious sighting.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.









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   Jun > Jun 25

                               Fortean Times?

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:07:48 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: Fortean Times?


Does anybody know what happened to the Fortean Times website?

http://www.forteantimes.com/

It seems to have vanished sometime last week and replaced with a
generic page:


"Welcome to the holding page for ....

http://www.forteantimes.com

You have reached this page as the domain name you
have entered is not currently live on our servers"









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   Jun > Jun 25

                  Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:21:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:56:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002 - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:13:32 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:55:24 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #25 - 2002
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 ><snip>

 >>However autokinetic motion does not explain a dim star (to a dim
 >>bulb like me) moving around in a zig-zag pattern covering an
 >>area half the size of the moon.

 ><snip>

 >>Key words here are thalf the width of a full moon whilst all about
 >>are stationary and which all about are being passed and gassed
 >>by that single, most extraordinary pelican at high altitude.

 >Hi, Jim:

 >How, exactly, did you determine that the movement was 1/4
 >degree?

Dear Young (Bob), Listers and EBK,

Did I not mention in my last post that I had a calibrated
eyeball? I estimated it for God sakes. I've been looking through
telescopes and looking at stars since I was about 9 years old,
when dad bought me a three inch reflector.

My work on star trackers in the sixties and seventies required
that I be able to see, sense with the naked eye, color
differences as well as estimate distances between similacrum and
actual stars. The gimballed star trackers were in their early
stage of development then, and color temperature (above the
atmosphere) was something we did not know. Among many other
things.


Jim








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                      Re: Fortean Times? - Peterborough

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:11:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:53:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Fortean Times? - Peterborough


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:07:48 -0500 (CDT)
 >Subject: Fortean Times?

 >Does anybody know what happened to the Fortean Times website?

 >http://www.forteantimes.com/

 >It seems to have vanished sometime last week and replaced with a
 >generic page:

 >"Welcome to the holding page for ....

 >http://www.forteantimes.com

 >You have reached this page as the domain name you
 >have entered is not currently live on our servers"

Fortean Times is going through some sort of ISP dispute, and
until it is sorted, you can find FT Online at

http://217.206.205.129/


Kelly








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                         Project Study A - 06-25-02

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:04:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:03:05 -0400
Subject: Project Study A - 06-25-02


While the study of abductees by medical personnel is
at it's early stage, there are some preliminary datum
which may be of interest.

Of the 432 people who's records have been examined:

85% suffer severe headaches

63% suffer either irritable bowel, Crohn's or other intestinal
illnesses

80% suffer irritable bowel disease

90% suffer arthritis, osteo arthritis and other degenerative
bone disease

45% suffer lupus

25% suffer MS

There are more data not yet available. However, the results
above are far greater than the non-abductee population.

Interesting, but not final, as the experiencers themselves have
not as yet been examined. This is merely from their records. I
suffer IBS, headaches, osteo arthritis. The lactose intolerant
population is also interestingly higher than the normal
population, although I do not as yet have numbers.

At present, the protocols have not been finalized, as the
statistical consultants have not completed their analysis as to
the required mix of abductee vs. normal grouping.

Further, thank you so very much to those on this List and many
other noted researchers for their interest in the project and
for the contributions already made.

And special thanks to Budd Hopkins for his extraordinary
contribution of a new questionnaire which is going to be used by
the psychiatrists in the group to help filter out the abductee
from the wannabees, liars and confabulators as well as those who
are merely mistaken in their memory.


Jim Mortellaro
06






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                         Re: Fortean Times? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:48:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:08:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Fortean Times? - Hatch


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:07:48 -0500 (CDT)
 >Subject: Fortean Times?

 >Does anybody know what happened to the Fortean Times website?

 >http://www.forteantimes.com/

 >It seems to have vanished sometime last week and replaced with a
 >generic page:

 >"Welcome to the holding page for ....

 >http://www.forteantimes.com

 >You have reached this page as the domain name you
 >have entered is not currently live on our servers"


Hello Chris:

It sounds like they let their domain name registry expire, or
forgot to pay their host. I hope some speculator doesn't find
out if its the first thing, but that might have happened
already.


Best

- Larry








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   Jun > Jun 25

                         Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:53:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:10:38 -0400
Subject: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone


I have just returned from Show Low, AZ, after evacuating my
family from our house, 1/2 mile from the fire line. We spent the
night in Eagar, AZ, at the large domed high school gymnasium
which President Bush visited this morning.

Before leaving, I spoke with Mike Rogers, who was also
evacuated, and he was fairly confident that "Turkey Springs,"
the location of the Travis Walton incident, has been lost to the
fire. The fire maps definitely show that area to be within the
boundaries of the fire line. Heber, directly to the north, lost
several hundred homes in the blaze.

Fortunately there has been no loss of life reported - a
"miracle" in and of itself. The loss to the state of Arizona in
terms of natural beauty is nearly incomprehensible. I've been to
many beauteous locales in my life, and this area ranks among the
top - serene, peaceful, unspoiled acreage as far as the eye
could see, with tall pines that constantly held whispered
conversations with the wind...large portions of it now look like
a set for a Tim Burton movie.

The loss to ufology may be greater, however, as those trees may
have held a secret that is now forever unrecoverable. That
secret just may have been proof positive of the veracity of the
Turkey Springs incident.

I don't wish to go into more detail until I have had a chance to
find and speak with Mike again, to (a) make sure he and his
family are safe, and (b) ascertain to what extent he was able to
gather evidence from the Turkey Springs area. Suffice to say for
the moment that whatever really happened at Turkey Springs may
remain a tree-whispered secret that is now 'Gone with the
Wind'.....


==JJS==








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                   Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:37:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:37:07 -0400
Subject: Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day



Source: The Irish Examiner

http://www.online.ie/news/irish_examiner/viewer.adp?article=3D1771513

25 Jun 2002

Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day

By M=EDche=E1l Lehane

SEVERAL strange objects appeared in the skies over Ireland as
UFO day was being celebrated by astronomers worldwide yesterday.

Public interest in unidentified flying objects took off big time
on June 24, 1947, after American pilot Kenneth Arnold saw giant,
so-called "flying saucers" in the sky. Millions of sightings of
the strange flying objects followed.

"There has been a big increase in sightings here during the last
few days. These pulsing objects that hover over the earth have
been seen from Dublin up to Armagh" Jim Flora at the Ufology
Centre at Glasslough, Co Monaghan, said.

However, those who study UFOs insist they have been appearing
here for hundreds of years before flying saucers were spotted in
America.

The UFOs are frequently seen on what astronomers call "ley
lines," which are magnetic lines running through the sky. These
lines often run over historic sites like Newgrange. The ley
lines are found most frequently in areas along the west coast.

"There are several flapping objects in the skies at the moment
and we don't really know why this is happening. You have to
remember that they're always there, but people don't look up
enough," Mr Flora added.

The president of the UFO Society of Ireland, Betty Meyler,
believes the flying objects are a sign of life on other planets.
She reckons at least 10 UFOs appear n the sky over Ireland each
month.

"They are crafts that come from planets. They come with an
offering of peace and love. They are always willing to help us.
Governments should stop trying to shoot them out of the air,"
she said.

Two years ago, Ms Meyler saw seven bright objects travelling
through the air above her home in Boyle, Co Roscommon. She later
received a message from these craft.

"A psychic friend of mine gave me a message from the UFO. They
were coming to ensure everything was in perfect order for the
millennium. As a result, there were no problems with computers
during the change of the year," she said.

1211: Strange-looking creatures are stranded after their craft
hits a church spire in Dublin. Locals try to reach aliens but
another craft rescues them.

1940: Bright red lights are spotted over the sky in Cork and
Kerry. Those who witness the sightings think it might be a
plane, but they insist it's different to anything they've seen
before.

1992: A massive, ship-like structure that moves through the sky
at great speed is seen over Bantry. Astronomers are still trying
to verify the significance of this UFO.

2000: A strange craft filled with bright lights comes out of the
ground and soars into the sky in Knockadana, Brosna, in Co
Roscommon.

2002: Several bright craft are spotted in the night skies
between Dublin and Armagh. Astronomers say these objects come in
peace from other planets.


UFO UpDates thanks The Anomalist
http://www.anomalist.com/
for the lead







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   Jun > Jun 25

                       Norweigian Cows Mutilate People

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:44:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:44:10 -0400
Subject: Norweigian Cows Mutilate People



Source: Aftenposten Norway

http://www.online.ie/news/irish_examiner/viewer.adp?article=3D1771513

Updated 25.06.02, kl 15:54 (GMT +01:00)

Cows Rampage In Norway

In a bizarre series of incidents, two farmers in different parts
of the country were hospitalized after being attacked by cows.
Elsewhere, four men narrowly missed having their car crushed by
a crash-landing cow.

Friday saw the first attack in the odd cow crime wave. Stian
Skoglund, 23, was bashed and trampled by a furious cud-chewer.
Stian was helping his girlfriend with her summer job on a farm
in Belta in =C5snes when the attack occurred.

"The cow attacked me. I was going to scare up the cows at about
four in the afternoon and chase them over to where they are
milked twice a day," Stian recalled. As he approached he noticed
that one of them was uneasy. He made eye contact with the animal
and tried to calm it. Instead, the beast became provoked and
charged.

"The cow butted me and I fell," Stian said. He got up and tried
to escape but the cow again knocked him to the ground before it
began to hop and trample him. The cow shattered one of his legs
just four centimeters below the knee. Skoglund also suffered
several broken ribs, cuts and bruises. The attack finally
stopped when he played dead.

Now he wonders if the attack might have been connected to a job
he did a few days earlier when he drove away the body of a calf
that had died on the farm.

"Maybe it was her motherly instincts being aroused. I have also
heard that I shouldn't have made eye contact with her, that only
provokes them," Skoglund said.

A 45-year-old farmer in Nordby, Raelingen was hospitalized
Tuesday in stable condition after an encounter with a cow he
found leaving Jahr farm. The animal first charged his wife.
After waving his arms to distract the animal, the farmer found
himself being knocked to the ground.

"The cow went berserk and couldn't be stopped. The farmer was
thrown into the air and landed injured on the ground," a witness
said.

While terrified witnesses tried in vain to calm the rampant cow
others contacted authorities who sent an ambulance and a medical
helicopter. A veterinarian was also summoned. He tranquilized
the animal and a decision about it future is likely today.

The attack at Jahr farm comes a year after a nearby farmer was
trampled to death by several bulls.

A flying - and landing - cow accounted for a close encounter
with death on road E39 near Rogaland on Monday night.

Four men traveling in a car saw only a large shadow in the sky
before a massive impact shook the ground. Driver Olav Kjeldstad
managed to avoid hitting the object, looked behind him and saw a
cow in the road.

Police deduced that the cow must have fallen from a ten-meter
high cliff overhanging the road. The animal only managed a few
moos before dying of its injuries.

"I was pretty shaken afterwards but I have to admit we had a
laugh as well. The whole thing was tragicomic," Kjeldstad said.



UFO UpDates thanks John Barrow for the lead






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   Jun > Jun 25

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:00:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:58:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:55:36 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:51:04 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 ><snip>

 >Shouldn't, anytime anybody says the NYU Rawin balloon, it be
 >pointed out that the very closest, in theory, that the so called
 >expert could get the balloon to the debris field is 17 or so
 >miles?

 >So no matter what, the theory is still 17 miles short... kind of
 >like horse shoes and hand gernades..... :) >>

Gentlemen:

Isn't what happened that at 17 miles the balloon device dropped
to an altitude that caused it to disappear from the radar set
which was tracking it from White Sands, or wherever?

Just because it was no long visible from the radar receiver
doesn't mean that it wasn't just poking along.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                 Re: Pravda - Fifty-Five Years Of Insanity -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:26:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:04:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda - Fifty-Five Years Of Insanity -


 >Source: On-Line Pravda

 >http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/24/30993.html


 >16:46 2002-06-24

 >FIFTY-FIVE YEARS OF INSANITY

 >Today is a historical day for humanity: 55 years ago, on June
 >24, 1947, the first publication about unidentified flying
 >objects (UFO) appeared in the USA.

 >The publication reported that pilot Kenneth Arnold noticed nine
 >disk-shaped objects not far from Mount Rainier (Washington
 >State) when he was searching for a lost plane. The objects were
 >moving at a speed of over 1,000 miles per hour. Later, the words
 >of the pilot were confirmed by locals and servicemen.

 >Soon, more publications dedicated to UFOs appeared in the press.
 >The US military authorities became very worried about the
 >objects found in the sky over the USA and adopted a special
 >project for the investigation of the UFO phenomenon. US
 >servicemen believed that the flying objects were nothing else
 >than new spy planes of the Soviet Union.

 >In the project's network, a special task group was initiated at
 >Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, in January
 >1948. At the same very time, the Pentagon informed that
 >appearence of the UFO was caused by one of three reasons: mass
 >hysteria and hallucinations, fraud, or the wrong interpretation
 >of familiar objects. The results of the investigation revealed
t>hat, if the UFO existed, it had nothing to do with the USSR.

 >At the end of the 1940s, another project named Discontent aimed

PROJECT GRUDGE (translated to some Russian word and then back
into English as "Discontent".... <LOL>


 >at the detailed investigation of UFOs and their possible effects
 >on the US national security was launched. The project was
 >successfully finished on December 27, 1949 when it was announced
 >that UFOs posed no danger to the security of the USA.

 >The results of the investigation of unidentified flying objects
 >were published in the so-called Blue Book in 1957.

Huh? An attempt to refer to Ruppelt's book of 1955, perhaps?

 >Independently of the Pentagon, the CIA set up a special
 >commission to study the connections between the UFO phenomenon
 >and the USSR's intelligence activity regarding the USA. Special
 >services investigating unidentified flying objects insisted that
 >the objects discovered in the sky over the USA were elements of
 >a psychological war of the USSR against the USA. The
 >investigation was canceled when it was proved that the Soviet
 >Union had nothing to do with the flying objects.

Which investigation was cancelled? Not Blue Book, which
continued until 1969, many years after the "CIA commission"
(Robertson Panel in January, 1953)

 >Thus, we can say that the UFO phenomenon is the result of the
 >cold war. The atmosphere of fear and distrust of that time and
 >apocalyptic expectations gave rise to hysteria that, in its
 >turn, spread myths about extraterrestrial beings visiting the
 >Earth.

Tsk, tsk. Obviously the writer was not very well educated about
the historical and presently continuing UFO sightings.

 >However, official statements did not seem convincing to those
 >people who supported the theory of extraterrestrial beings
 >coming to the planet, and, although the theory has not yet been
 >scientifically confirmed, more and more evidence of the fact
t>hat extraterrestrials do exist appears from time to time. For
 >example, it was allegedly reported that a flying object crashed
 >in Roswell, and, once, information appeared about some
 >mysterious circles on the fields of British farmers (as it
 >turned later, the farmers made the circles themselves).

Huh? Obviously writer was not very well educated about the
historical and continuing agriglyph phenomenon. Certainly the
"circles" were not constructed by the farmers themselves. (Even
"Doug and Dave" were not farmers of the land on which they
made... one?... circle.)

 >Nowadays, the study of extraterrestrial visits is a wonderfully
 >arranged business and not only the concern for small
 >enthusiastic groups. Certainly, this fact hampers the objective
 >investigation of different phenomena that are not yet
 >scientifically explained. Numerous speculations about UFOs make
 >the majority of people rather skeptical about these
 >unaccountable phenomena, not to mention the scientists
 >investigating.

<snip>

I agree.

 >So, no convincing evidence has been found that extraterrestrial
 >civilizations do exist. At the same time, all unaccountable
 >phenomena cannot be treated as the forgeries of people craving
 >sensation. Certainly, all phenomena of this kind should be
 >closely and objectively studied to prove or disprove existence
 >of extraterrestrial civilizations.

Yes.








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                  Re: Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:30:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:06:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Friedman


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:04:23 EDT
 >Subject: Project Study A - 06-25-02


 >While the study of abductees by medical personnel is
 >at it's early stage, there are some preliminary datum
 >which may be of interest.

 >Of the 432 people who's records have been examined:

 >85% suffer severe headaches

 >63% suffer either irritable bowel, Crohn's or other intestinal
 >illnesses

 >80% suffer irritable bowel disease

 >90% suffer arthritis, osteo arthritis and other degenerative
 >bone disease

 >45% suffer lupus

 >25% suffer MS

 >There are more data not yet available. However, the results
 >above are far greater than the non-abductee population.

 >Interesting, but not final, as the experiencers themselves have
 >not as yet been examined. This is merely from their records. I
 >suffer IBS, headaches, osteo arthritis. The lactose intolerant
 >population is also interestingly higher than the normal
 >population, although I do not as yet have numbers.

 >At present, the protocols have not been finalized, as the
 >statistical consultants have not completed their analysis as to
 >the required mix of abductee vs. normal grouping.

 >Further, thank you so very much to those on this List and many
 >other noted researchers for their interest in the project and
 >for the contributions already made.

 >And special thanks to Budd Hopkins for his extraordinary
 >contribution of a new questionnaire which is going to be used by
 >the psychiatrists in the group to help filter out the abductee
 >from the wannabees, liars and confabulators as well as those who
 >are merely mistaken in their memory.

I, for one, am very pleased to see some real science being done
about abductions and am amazed that important physicians are
getting involved.

What a contrast with the garbage broadcast by the History
Channel about Roswell.

Bravo, Jim, Budd, and the unnamed medics... as well as the 432
brave enough to get involved.


Stan Friedman








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                        Chupacabras Wake Neighborhood

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:09:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:08:27 -0400
Subject: Chupacabras Wake Neighborhood


Chupacabras Waking Up The Neighborhood

6-23-2

Source: El Mercurio de Calama

Calama, Chile - Neighbors have reported yet another chupacabras
sighting. The alleged creature appeared in the middle of the
night, making loud noises and waking several people up. The
phenomenon took place in the area of Manuel Rodriguez, in a
housing complex on San Antonio street. "It was not a man; it did
not look like a person. It resembled an ape and it jumped all
over the roof. It passed right in front of my window and then it
came back making all kinds of noise. I didn't want to turn on
the light, because I was very afraid and my windows don't have
screens.  I was afraid that the animal would break in. I cannot
explain exactly what happened, all I know is I was very scared",
said Maria Gavia, a local daycare employee.

The concern in her words is highly noticeable, in spite of the
fact that twelve hours had passed after her strange experience.
"It was after midnight. Suddenly I heard loud noises coming from
the roof. That creature went by my window. It jumped a lot. It
made very long jumps, unlike the way a person jumps. Suddenly, I
saw my father coming out of the door on the first floor and the
creature jumped. It jumped so far that it landed on top of the
neighbor's house. No person jumps so long without running and
gaining momentum. Then it finally left. I was able to listen to
the neighbor yelling 'there it is, there it is!' It finally
ended up across the street. I knew that because the dogs across
the street began barking and howling. Moments later, there was
nothing but silence."


"THE DOGS ACTED STRANGE"

"I have two dogs. My dad says that the creature could have been
in the property long before we heard it because when he came
earlier, the dogs were acting strange. Normally, they come out
to meet him at the entrance, but this time, they did not come to
the patio; he had to call them. One dog seemed scared; it was
hiding and it did not want to move or go anywhere. The other one
was nowhere to be found. I had never seen anything like that, as
if it was a monkey that jumped on two legs and sometimes three.
It was about 1.5 meters tall, perhaps even more, but it was
stocky. It made a lot of noise. I could not sleep during the
entire night."


IT LEFT NO TRACE

The young lady's father says the neighbor saw an individual
chasing the creature as it was leaving. Despite all the noise
made by the creature, he checked the sheet metal roof and did
not find any dents. He said that the noise was definitely made
by something heavy, but he did not find any tracks nor trace of
it.

The detailed accounts and eyewitness descriptions coincide with
the case that occurred on April of 2001, when local residents
formed a neighborhood watch to protect the livestock that was
being attacked by the alleged creature. During those attacks,
they mentioned seeing a similar creature, a Chupacabras, an
animal, or perhaps an alien being capable of making long jumps
using two or three legs. The farmers also mentioned how their
dogs, which were normally mean and would not hesitate to attack
strangers, were afraid and would rather hide from the creature
instead of attacking it.

Another similarity was how the creature is afraid of the light.
Last year, they reported seeing it getting away as they turned
on the lights. This time, the creature appeared to behave in the
same manner. When the young girl and her father turned on the
lights, the creature left immediately.

In the year 2000, the Chupacabras seemed to attack in areas with
a notable presence of docile domestic animals to obtain what
appeared to be their blood. The animals included chickens,
rabbits, lambs, cats and even some horses in different parts of
Calama. Last Thursday night, it was on top of the roofs of
houses adjacent to another property where animals are raised. It
did not harm any of the farm animals, but it left fear among
local residents.


Jaime Ferrer

Calama UFO Center

Translation by Mario Andrade

-----

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net







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   Jun > Jun 25

                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:48:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:50:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - McCoy


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:53:53 -0700

Hello, all, Jim.

I've fought many fires on the Apache Rez and in the Apache-
Sitgraves, Based in Winslow. My heart goes out to you folks.

<snip>

 >I don't wish to go into more detail until I have had a chance to
 >find and speak with Mike again, to (a) make sure he and his
 >family are safe, and (b) ascertain to what extent he was able to
 >gather evidence from the Turkey Springs area. Suffice to say for
 >the moment that whatever really happened at Turkey Springs may
 >remain a tree-whispered secret that is now 'Gone with the
 >Wind'.....

Yes, and I am saddened too, not only for the loss of the most
goregous Ponderosa forest anywhere, and the economic loss, if
there was an answer to the Walton case, that too. This from a
Walton doubter. I hope and pray things will turn out well for
you folks,


Early Monsoons,

GT McCoy
Former Airtanker Pilot







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                  Re: Norweigian Cows Mutilate People - ebk

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Norweigian Cows Mutilate People - ebk

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Source: Aftenposten Norway

 >http://www.online.ie/news/irish_examiner/viewer.adp?article=1771513

 >Updated 25.06.02, kl 15:54 (GMT +01:00)

 >Cows Rampage In Norway

<snip>

 >UFO UpDates thanks John Barrow for the lead

And humbly apologises to Robert Barrow, who actually
supplied the lead.....

ebk








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                        Re: Roswell UFO Festival 2002

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 02:56:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:01:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Festival 2002


Source: Arizona Reporter,

http://azreporter.com/dailybuzz/coolevents/ufofestival.html

Stig

***

Source: City of Roswell

Published: Friday, May 24, 2002

**

ROSWELL, N.M. -- E.T.'s family will "phone home" to Roswell this
Fourth of July weekend for the annual UFO Festival which began
in 1997. Dee Wallace Stone, who played Elliott's mother on the
beloved Steven Spielberg classic "E.T. The Extra Terrestrial,"
headlines a weekend that's all about the aliens in Roswell, NM.

Thousands of visitors from around the world will once again
descend upon Roswell, New Mexico for the festival, which runs
from July 4 through July 7, 2002. The theme for this year, After
55 Years, the Mystery Continues, encourages visitors to do some
research and come to their own conclusion about the mysterious
object that landed in Roswell 55 years ago.

During the first week of July in 1947, a New Mexico rancher
discovered metal debris and a large trench, several hundred feet
long, while checking on his sheep. He reported the debris to
authorities, who released information that a "crashed disk" had
been discovered. Later, the information was amended, saying that
wreckage was the remains of a weather balloon, not a flying
saucer. The activities of that time would come to be known as
the "Roswell Incident." And, to this day, there are those that
believe that the government is covering up knowledge of aliens.

Highlights of the weeklong festivities include the Electric
Light UFO Parade, the UFO/Alien Ball, the Alien Marketplace of
sci-fi vendor booths, an alien costume contest, guest speakers,
puppet shows, model airplanes, night golf and the Alien Chase 5K
and 10K walk/run and of course - aliens.

The Roswell Spacewalk allows the young and the young at heart to
get a glimpse of the past, present and future. Blacklights will
illuminate art created, painted and installed by Roswell
volunteers that takes viewers from 1947 to the present and
beyond.

Get a glimpse of hundreds of aliens trekking through Main Street
in this year's Alien Parade. Spectators from around the world
converge on the city to watch aliens of all shapes and sizes
from galaxies near and far revel in the alien fun. Prizes will
be awarded for extraterrestrial creativity.

Experts on UFO phenomena from around the country will present
symposiums, round-table discussions and lectures at the
International UFO Museum and Research Center and the Roswell
Convention Center. George Fawcett will speak about recent UFO
happening and their implications on July 5 at 1 p.m. At 7 p.m.,
Jim Moseley will present "True Weird Personal Experiences of a
Skeptical Believer." Stanton Friedman will speak at 7 p.m. on
July 6. Friedman, one of the most recognized and respected UFO
experts in North America, is an author and nuclear physicist and
is often referred to as the "Father of Roswell." Dee Wallace
Stone of "E.T. The Extra Terrestrial" fame, will celebrate the
20th anniversary of the movie by appearing at all major events
to sign autographs and speak with fans and aliens alike.

Music at this year's festival includes R&B, jump, funk and swing
music by Chris Daniels and the Kings, as well as Native American
flutist Doug Bluefeather, and MIB which will rattle Roswell with
its space-age symphonic rock.

 From UFOs to culture, Roswell, New Mexico has something for
everyone. Visitors can indulge in Southwestern cuisine, art and
entertainment. With numerous parks and beautiful weather year
round, Roswell offers small-town charm with an endless variety
of activities for all ages. For more information call the
Roswell Chamber of Commerce at (505) 623-5695 or visit online at
www.roswell-nm.com .

**

The "Cool Event" newsletter is a brief synopsis of an upcoming
festival, concert or event somewhere in the United States or
around the world. The our newsletter is intended to help people
who are planning to travel or vacation this summer or fall to
find unique destinations. You can subscribe at:

http://www.azreporter.com/feedback.html

Just enter your e-mail address and type "SUBSCRIBE COOL EVENTS"
in the subject box.







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   Jun > Jun 25

                         Scotland 'Top Alien Nation'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:36:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:04:19 -0400
Subject: Scotland 'Top Alien Nation'


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2061000/2061393.stm

(+ video and audio links)

Stig

***

Monday, 24 June, 2002, 10:16 GMT 11:16 UK

Scotland dubbed 'top alien nation'

**

Scotland can rightly lay claim to being the "Costa Del Sol" for
aliens, according to tourism officials.

They are pointing to a survey which says that Scotland has the
highest concentration of reported sightings of Unidentified
Flying Objects (UFOs) of any country in the world.

The results have been published to coincide with International
UFO Day and refer to 300 reported UFO sightings in Scotland a
year.

According to the study, Scotland also recorded the highest
number of reported UFO sightings per head of population.

The researchers said Scotland had 0.004 reported UFO sightings
per square kilometre and one sighting per 17,000 inhabitants.

The research was commissioned by VisitScotland, the national
tourist organisation.

A spokesman said: "This confirms that Scotland is the nearest
thing there is to the Costa del Sol for aliens."

The village of Bonnybridge in Stirlingshire has become a hub for
UFO enthusiasts following numerous reports of sightings.


Visitor centre


The area became known as the "Falkirk triangle" and other
"sightings" have been recorded in neighbouring West Lothian.

Bonnybridge councillor Billy Buchanan has called for a UFO
visitors' centre to be built in the village.

Stirling-based UFO writer Ron Halliday said: "When you think of
the number of sightings in Scotland compared to the size of its
population, it is phenomenal."

Of the Bonnybridge "phenomenon", he said: "One theory is that
the area around Bonnybridge is some kind of window into another
dimension.

"That would explain why some people see a UFO and others don't -
  because a UFO is some kind of paranormal phenomenon rather than
a nuts and bolts spaceship.

"People are not so much seeing little green men as little grey men,
tall grey men and different varieties of types."

Mr Halliday said it was important to emphasise that although
there had been many reports of sightings, it was impossible to
say that every one was an alien entity.

"But it does seem to be a bit of a mystery why Bonnybridge
should be a target of spaceships from other planets."


Alien concept


Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO magazine, said: "UFOs tend to be
attracted to regions that are fairly remote.

"Plus, if you have a remote area, look out for airbases -
  Scotland is littered with airbases.

"In 90% of UFO reports, a bit of diligent research will produce
a simple explanation, but that still leaves 10% remaining
unexplained."

However, Stuart Campbell, author of The UFO Mystery Solved, said
he had "never been stumped" to explain a reported sighting.

"I claim that 100 percent (of reports) are explainable, it just
depends how many explanations you have available.

"I have never found one that I couldn't explain."

**

=A9 MMII








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                 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:53:31 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:05:25 -0400
Subject: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey


Source: The Scotsman,

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3D4854960

Stig

***

Sun 23 Jun 2002

2:04pm (UK)

Scotland 'Out of This World' for Ufo Sightings

By Kevin Schofield, PA News

**

Scotland was today dubbed "the Costa Del Sol for aliens" after
coming top of a league table of the world's UFO hotspots.

Researchers have discovered that Scotland has the highest
concentration of UFO sightings of any country in the world.

The results, published to coincide with International UFO Day,
show that there are 300 reported UFO sightings in Scotland a
year -- four times as many per square kilometre than France and
Italy, who come joint second in the rankings.

Scotland also records the highest number of UFO sightings per
head of population, with the figure once again four times higher
than second placed Canada.

The research was commissioned by VisitScotland, the country's
national tourist body, and a spokesman said: "This confirms that
Scotland is the nearest thing there is to the Costa del Sol for
aliens."

Scotland's reputation as a UFO hotspot stems from the early
1990s, when there were dozens of sightings in and around the
village of Bonnybridge in Stirlingshire.

The area quickly became known as the 'Falkirk triangle' and
there were also more sightings in nearby West Lothian.

Bonnybridge councillor Billy Buchanan even called for a UFO
visitors' centre to be built in the village to cash in on the
phenomenon.

Stirling-based UFO expert Ron Halliday, author of the books 'UFO
Scotland' and 'UFOs: The Scottish Dimension', said: "When you
think of the number of sightings in Scotland compared to the
size of its population, it is phenonmenal."

Mr Halliday also explained why he thought there were so many
strange sightings in the Bonnybridge area in particular. He
said: "One theory is that the area around Bonnybridge is some
kind of window into another dimension.

"That would explain why some people see a UFO and others don't --
because a UFO. is some kind of paranormal phenomenon rather than
a nuts and bolts spaceship."

Graham Birdsall, editor of 'UFO' magazine, offered another
explanation as to why Scotland has become a UFO hotspot.

He said: "UFOs tend to be attracted to regions that are fairly
remote. Plus, if you have a remote area, look out for airbases --
Scotland is littered with airbases.

"In 90% of UFO reports, a bit of diligent research will produce
a simple explanation, but that still leaves 10% remaining
unexplained."

According to the research, Scotland has 0.004 UFO sightings per
square kilometre and one sighting per 17,000 inhabitants.

By contrast, France has just 0.001 sightings per square
kilometre and one sighting for every 86,857 of its citizens. And
although the USA has 2,000 sightings a year, that works out at
just 0.0002 per square kilometre and one sighting for every
136,450 people.

**

=A92002 scotsman.com







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             Mysterious Pipes Left by 'ET' Reported from Qinghai

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:09:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:09:45 -0400
Subject: Mysterious Pipes Left by 'ET' Reported from Qinghai



Source: The People's Daily - Beijing

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200206/25/eng20020625_98530.shtml


[Picture]

Tuesday, June 25, 2002

Mysterious Pipes Left by 'ET' Reported from Qinghai

The widespread news of mysterious iron pipes at the foot of
Mount Baigong, located in the depths of the Qaidam Basin,
Qinghai Province, has roused concern from related departments.

Some experts believe that these might be relics left behind by
extraterrestrial beings (ET), for the site, with its high
altitude and thin, crisp air, has long been held as an ideal
place to practice astronomy.

Three caves are found at the foot of Mount Baigong. Two of them
have collapsed and are inaccessible. The middle one is the
biggest, with its floor standing two meters above the ground and
its top eight meters above the ground.

This cave is about six meters in depth, a little like a cave dug
out by human beings, with pure sand and rock inside.

What is astonishing is inside for there is a half-pipe about 40
centimeters in diameter tilting from the top to the inner end of
the cave. Another pipe of the same diameter goes into the earth
with only its top visible above the ground.

At the opening of the cave there are a dozen pipes at the
diameter between 10 and 40 centimeters run into the mount
straightly, showing high fixing technique.

About 80 meters away from the caves is the shimmering Toson
Lake, on whose beach 40 meters away, many iron pipes can be
found scattered on sands and rocks. They run in the east-west
direction with a diameter between 2 and 4.5 centimeters. They
are of various strange shapes and the thinnest is like a
toothpick, but not blocked inside after years of sand movement.

More strange is that there are also some pipes in the lake, some
reaching above water surface and some buried below, with similar
shapes and thickness with those on the beach.


By PD Online Staff Member Li Heng







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   Jun > Jun 26

                  Re: urkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:06:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:29:36 -0400
Subject: Re: urkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:48:06 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:53:53 -0700

 >I've fought many fires on the Apache Rez and in the Apache-
 >Sitgraves, Based in Winslow. My heart goes out to you folks.

 ><snip>

 >>I don't wish to go into more detail until I have had a chance to
 >>find and speak with Mike again, to (a) make sure he and his
 >>family are safe, and (b) ascertain to what extent he was able to
 >>gather evidence from the Turkey Springs area. Suffice to say for
 >>the moment that whatever really happened at Turkey Springs may
 >>remain a tree-whispered secret that is now 'Gone with the
 >>Wind'.....

 >Yes, and I am saddened too, not only for the loss of the most
 >goregous Ponderosa forest anywhere, and the economic loss, if
 >there was an answer to the Walton case, that too. This from a
 >Walton doubter. I hope and pray things will turn out well for
 >you folks,



Thank you, GT, we all deeply appreciate the country's concern.

This loss is not just Arizona's, but the nation's as well.


==JJS==
(a former Walton doubter)







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   Jun > Jun 26

                            UFOs & Documentaries

From: Paul Kimball <Redstarfilm@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:32:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:29:24 -0400
Subject: UFOs & Documentaries


List:

A good documentary filmmaker will almost always have a 'point of
view' (otherwise, he's just a cameraman for a reality show), but
he must also strive to be objective, which means including
diverse - meaning opposing - opinions.

In our recent doc on Stan Friedman, for example, there is a
discussion of Majestic 12. Stan defends the legitimacy of the
core docs, Karl Pflock, Vaughn Rees of CSICOP, and Kevin Randle
label them as frauds, and Don Ledger says he doesn't know.

On the question of Roswell, Pflock has a go at the
commercialisation of the UFO industry, and hints that Stan has
done pretty well for himself out of Roswell, while Stan
obviously defends Roswell and Roswellians right to earn a buck.

The highest compliment someone could pay me as a filmmaker is to
watch it and then say "I have no idea which way Kimball leans on
the subject of Majestic 12, or Roswell". While I am sympathetic
to Stan, and admire his efforts greatly, to not cover the other
side of the coin is to simply put out an informational video or,
worse, an episode of Biography. No broadcaster, at least in this
country (Canada) would commission such a work.

Also, I interviewed a lot of people, many of whom didn't make
the final cut, and others - like Kevin - who might be in it for
a total of one minute, even though we talked for hours. That's
the way it goes, and only in the edit room do you make the
decisions as to what stays and what does not. All I can do is
express my appreciation to everyone interviewed, and try to take
the subject seriously.

Having said all that, there are documentary makers (seemingly
more in the United States than up here) who are just out to make
a fast buck. The trick is to avoid them. The best way to do so
is to ask what films they've done before, try and view some of
them, check out any reviews of their work, and ask to whom else
they may have been talking.

I was very forthright about letting people know who I was
interviewing (if they asked). In fact, Karl and Kevin were
interviewed in Cedar Rapids one right after the other. We had a
congenial breakfast together beforehand (great food in Cedar
Rapids!). I was happy to refer Dr. Benson Saler, skeptic, to
Stan. Most filmmakers are like that - all you have to do is ask.
If they won't tell (although sometimes they might have a good
reason for not spilling all the beans), think twice, and proceed
with caution.

And, if you think we've misrepresented your views - which is
different from simply disagreeing with us - call us on it. Stan
usually does. It keeps us honest!

In Pulvere Vinces,

Paul Kimball
Redstar Films
www.redstarfilm.com

P.S. Unabashed plugs!

"... a balanced portrait of the UFO expert... 'Stanton T.
Friedman IS Real!' makes a substantial contribution to the UFO
discourse." - atlanticzone.ca

"Takes the man and his message seriously... Stanton T. Friedman
IS Real is a hoot!" - Toronto Globe and Mail

"Answers the question of where the line is drawn between being
an objective searcher for the truth, and a true believer." -
  Fredericton Daily Gleaner






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   Jun > Jun 26

                  Re: Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:50:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:31:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Project Study A - 06-25-02 - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:04:23 EDT
 >Subject: Project Study A - 06-25-02


 >While the study of abductees by medical personnel is
 >at it's early stage, there are some preliminary datum
 >which may be of interest.


Very interesting.

Thanks for all your work on this.








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   Jun > Jun 26

                  'UFO' Ad Leads Volkswagen Fans To Roswell

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 05:00:35 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:47:52 -0400
Subject: 'UFO' Ad Leads Volkswagen Fans To Roswell


Source: The 1960 Sun, Houston, Texas

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=3D4478943&BRD=3D1578&PAG=3D461&dep=
t_id=3D187115&rfi=3D6

Stig

***

Local Volkswagen enthusiasts head for New Mexico

By Fred Facker, Editor

June 19, 2002

***

"Reverse engineered from UFOs". That's what the advertisement
for the new Volkswagen Beetle claimed, and according to Anna
McCollum that's what drives thousands of new Beetle owners to
converge in Roswell, New Mexico every year for the "Return to
the Mothership" festival and car show.

McCollum, this year's caravan leader for the Houston group that
made their annual voyage to the land of alien legends, and her
daughter Mozelle have attended the conference all three years
that it has been in existence, and says the show has now become
the third largest-drawing tourist event in Roswell.

Friday night is a meet-and-greet at one of the UFO spotting
areas, said McCollum. Afterwards, they all head-off to find one
of the four car washes in town to clean the cars for Saturday's
auto show. After the show, the Beetles parade through town, and
then have a party Saturday night.

McCollum said she hoped to do well in the show with the new
custom paint-job on her black Beetle she's named "Shaft".

Nate Frizzel also made the voyage for his third year in his
Beetle named "Kismet", and Todd Petree and Don Russell made the
trip for their second time in Petree's silver bug named
"Magdalena".

While last year the Houston group boasted 14 Beetles, only three
vehicles started the caravan from the Denny's at FM 1960 and
Highway 290 last Friday. However, McCollum estimated that by the
time they reached Roswell, their caravan could grow to a group
of 40 or more.

For those interested in getting involved, more information can
be found at www.roswell2k.org and www.newbeetle.org.

**

=A9The 1960 Sun 2002








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   Jun > Jun 26

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:00:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:50:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:00:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:55:36 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >>Shouldn't, anytime anybody says the NYU Rawin balloon, it be
 >>pointed out that the very closest, in theory, that the so called
 >>expert could get the balloon to the debris field is 17 or so
 >>miles?

 >>So no matter what, the theory is still 17 miles short... kind of
 >>like horse shoes and hand gernades..... :) >>

 >Gentlemen:

 >Isn't what happened that at 17 miles the balloon device dropped
 >to an altitude that caused it to disappear from the radar set
 >which was tracking it from White Sands, or wherever?

 >Just because it was no long visible from the radar receiver
 >doesn't mean that it wasn't just poking along.

A couple of things off the top of my head. Being that this is
off the top of my head, if Kevin Randle or somebody else wants
to correct something please feel free. Its been quite awhile
since I looked at Moore's book.

As I recall from the Moore account we only have one launch that
fits the bill so to speak. We also only have _one_ person, i.e.
Moore who says that his diary/journal claimed that a launch took
place on June 4th. As I recall we have no other records or
information that can be verified that in fact can confirm that a
balloon and package was even launched.

Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17 miles
of the ranch. Now I would point out that apparently nobody
independent of Moore has run an analysis of the same data, i.e.
upper air currents, payload etc etc.

As I recall there was _no_ radar tracking data of that flight
what so ever.

Apparently based upon that we have Moore pronouncement that the
package/balloon accounted for the debris field. In essence the
theory at best was 17 miles short.

I find it amusing that one one hand skeptibunkers will seize
upon a skeptical theory that at best is 17 miles short and
pronounce that as a valid, scientific explaination of what
happened.

On the other hand if a pro UFO person advanced a theory that was
off by 17 miles all the skeptibunkers would pounce on it, and
start telling us why it isn't scientific, why the data doesn't
even come close etc etc.

Personally even if a pro-UFO theory is off by 17 miles, its
still 17 miles short no matter who advanced it and should be
looked as such.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jun > Jun 26

                        UFO Group Speculates On Hole

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 05:50:05 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:07:42 -0400
Subject: UFO Group Speculates On Hole


Source: Eastside Journal (Bellevue, Washington),

http://www.eastsidejournal.com/sited/story/html/96226

N.B.! Contrary to the allegation of the journal, "rense.com"
doesn't belong to Charlette LeFevre. As most of you will know,
it is Jeff Rense's site.

Stig

***


Mystery hole found in Woodinville

2002-06-20

by Noel S. Brady
Journal Reporter

**

WOODINVILLE -- A hole in the ground has finally put this city on
the national map.

So much so, that King County transportation spokeswoman Linda
Thielke yesterday was giving interviews with news media and
radio stations across the country asking about a mysterious 235-
foot- deep hole found near Woodinville last weekend.

Now a group of UFO enthusiasts in Seattle is making its own
speculations.

"Everybody's taken by the depth of the hole," Thielke said. "I
guess it's just a fascination with holes in the earth."

Officials still aren't sure what to make of the three-foot-wide
hole that drops straight down beneath a neighborhood at
Northeast 172nd Street at 161st Avenue Northeast.

At first they called it a sinkhole, after neighbors reported
seeing it Friday evening about a foot inside a narrow
residential roadway. Then road crews wondered whether it might
be a mine shaft.

With both of those possibilities ruled out, Thielke said,
engineers now think it was either a well or a hole drilled early
last century in search of water, natural gas or oil.

Engineers have to determine what it was for, how deep it really
goes and what lies underneath before they can fill and cap it.

"We still have to figure out what it was originally there for,"
Thielks said. "If it was for water or oil or gas we have to
treat it differently."

On Monday road crews lowered a video camera into the dark
opening to see where it led. That's how they determined it was
230 to 250 feet deep -- and not the 1,000 feet firefighters
thought earlier after lowering a rope.

The county Department of Transportation posted a portion of the
streaming video on the Web for all to see. It's at:

http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdot/news/2002/nr020617_sinkhole.htm

[I couldn't connect to the server - Stig]

The video quelled fears that the hole might lead to a much wider
void beneath the roadway and possibly homes.

Today, a second, smaller camera was to be lowered into a four-
  inch-wide pipe that can be seen rising up from the depths of
the hole.

"We were thinking mine shaft, but no records have been found,"
said county Department of Transportation supervisor Ross Pettit
before the video camera was lowered into the shaft.

A neighbor who has lived in the area since 1967 couldn't recall
any sort of digging.

The state Department of Natural Resources found one possible
explanation. Records indicate that exploratory drilling was
conducted in the area back in the 1930s, possibly in search of
natural gas or oil, said Thielke.

Or it may be just an old well.

What ever it is, it's attracting an array of speculation.
Yesterday, Charlette LeFevre of the Seattle UFO/Paranormal Group
posted a story about the "bottomless pit" on her Web site,
Rense.com.

"Could it have been a vent hole for the Nike missile silos built
during the `60s?" LeFevre wonders. "Could the hole have been dug
from below? Is it military related?

"Whatever it is, it will be interesting getting to the bottom."

**

Noel Brady can be reached at noel.brady@eastsidejournal.com or
425-453-4252.

*

Eastside Journal
1705 132nd Avenue N.E.
Bellevue, WA 98005-2251
Phone: 425-455-2222
Fax: 425-635-0602
All materials Copyright =A9 2002 Horvitz








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   Jun > Jun 26

                            More On Mystery Hole

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 05:57:45 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:10:00 -0400
Subject: More On Mystery Hole


Source: Seattle Post-Intelligencer

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/75532_hole21.shtml

Stig

***

Now you know the hole story

Friday, June 21, 2002

By MARGO HORNER
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

**

WOODINVILLE -- The mystery began last week, when 10-year-old
Kaare Tollefson noticed the hole while walking to his school
bus.

It was no wider than a quarter then. But no one knew how deep it
was.

"I went and got a broom handle and stuck it in the hole and it
didn't hit," remembered Jim Van Noy.

He then tried it with a 16-foot pole.

It still didn't reach the bottom.

Since then, the Hollywood Hills neighborhood has been
transformed into something of a tourist attraction: State and
county officials and concerned neighbors have been flocking to
this Eastside community, all eager to take a peek. [Note: the
original version of this story omitted county officials.]

"I'm just waiting for the governor to get here," Van Noy said.

Calls have come from around the country. UFO enthusiasts have
visited the hole on 164th Avenue Northeast and come up with
their own suspicions. Kaare and other neighborhood children have
lined up outside the caution tape, peering over the edge.

And almost everyone has a theory as to how the hole appeared
here in the first place.

Van Noy noticed it shortly after a garbage truck was parked
there. He's convinced that's what caused the hole.

"I'm out here every day," he said, "and I know what's going on
in this neighborhood."

His wife noticed the hole appeared during the solar eclipse.

She wonders if that had something to do with it.

Inspectors have been relying on something more scientific.

They've dropped bricks, shone lights and lowered ropes into the
hole.

But no one could determine where it ended, until the depth was
finally measured at 236 feet Monday night with the help of a
camera that had been lowered into the hole.

By that time, all that poking and prodding caused the top of the
hole to crumble inside and widen to 3 feet.

In the neighborhood, the suspense grew, too.

Dan Ovenell has lived in the area since 1967.

Back then, the road on which the hole appeared wasn't even
there.

"Before, we just had 20 cows and an old homestead house," he
said. "We pastured all of this area."

In the mid-1980s, the neighborhood underwent a major
development. It's now lined with upscale homes and occupied
mostly by Microsoft Corp. employees.

Ovenell never noticed any wells or mine shafts where the hole
appeared. And he certainly hasn't done any digging.

Theresa Tollefson was concerned about her children's safety.

"We just want to be sure there's no more holes," she said.

And members of the Seattle UFO/Paranormal Group wondered whether
the hole may be connected to other "bottomless pits" discovered
in other places across the state, such as Ellensburg and
Bothell.

Through it all, Van Noy has enjoyed the excitement in his front
yard on 164th Avenue Northeast.

He even brought out coolers of soda and lawn chairs to
accommodate the crowd.

"I think it's really good," he said; "it gives me something to
do."

Yesterday, though, the mystery was finally solved with the use
of the camera.

The hole is nothing more than an old water well.

And by early next week, the community could return to normal.

That's when road crews will begin filling the hole.

**

P-I reporter Margo Horner can be reached at 206-448-8030 or
margohorner@seattlepi.com

=A91999-2002 Seattle Post-Intelligencer








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   Jun > Jun 26

                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 04:33:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:16:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:34 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

Kevin wrote:

 >Larry Warren was not at Bentwaters on the two nights of the UFO
 >activities there. I have seen the video taped interview in which
 >Warren said that he was in Germany for the first two nights, but
 >he was there for the third. And I have a copy of the audio tape
 >discussion with Colonel Halt in which Warren says that he
 >doesn't know if he was a real participant or if he invented the
 >whole thing in his head.

Kevin,

I can hopefully help to clarify the true context.

The 'UFO' perceptions _did_ apparently encompass three nights.

During my discussions with John Burroughs, a central participant
in those founding, first night's events, it was one of the
points he emphasised.

Therefore, the timeline becomes:

1. As documented in related statements subsequently obtained by
Lt. Col. Halt [although, as he confirms, not requested until
early January 1981], at circa 0300 on 26 December, 1980,
Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston observed 'unfamiliar lights',
seemingly within Rendlesham forest, however the source is never
identified and what is initially believed to be the same lights
are last seen _and reported over the radio_ as near farmhouses
at Capel Green.

All three participants then pursue a 'strange light' which
ultimately turns out to be a coastal lighthouse.

Burroughs acknowledges that the resultant two mile 'beacon
light' chase is factual.

He also comments that Penniston's subsequent tales of examining
a 'landed triangular-shaped craft' for some thirty minutes, are
perhaps 'influenced' by the 'regressive hypnosis' which first
resulted in those same 'recollections'.

Burroughs maintains, as he always has done, that they only ever
witnessed lights which implied an 'object' was there.


2. On the ensuing night of 26 December, 'strange lights' were
again apparently observed... whether in the same vicinity, is
not known.


3. During the night of Saturday 27 December, Halt was attending
a belated officer's Christmas party when he was alerted that the
'UFO' had, once more, returned.

This resulted in his personal involvement, extending to the
early hours of 28 December. However, Halt had yet to take those
statements and be aware of how a coastal lighthouse had, at the
outset, eventually been followed for two miles as a potential
'UFO'.

Halt assembled a team of 'specialists' and statedly set out to
"debunk" the 'UFO hysteria', recording on his microcassette how
a 'strange, flashing light', seen from the previously identified
'landing site', was later tracked to be, "clear off to the
coast".

A separate observation recorded by Halt are 'star-like' objects
which seem to be manoeuvring and one of which appeared to
beaming down a light - this was documented on tape as still
visible some 45 minutes later.

Ironically, an explanation for the latter may be dependent on
evidence which relates to Larry Warren.


Also regarding:

 >From: Larry Warren? <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:12:16 +0100 (BST)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:39:35 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

 >...and so the mythical third night in fact is reality, and i was
 >indeed involved as my authentic military records prove, along
 >with the supporting testamoney of others who place me on site.

Larry,

If you read this, perhaps you can please help to clarify a
fundamental question.

Did events on that 'third night' take place during a military
exercise?

A foremost claim in the affirmative is contained within Greg
Battram's testimony, one of those who places Larry 'on site'.

This is by necessity a lengthy contribution and with Errol's
kind permission, I will simply copy a posting from the public
'UFO Research List' [UFORL], which should be self-explanatory:

 >From: John Burtenshaw <jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk>
 >To: <UFORL@yahoogroups.com>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:09:22 +0100
 >Subject: [UFORL] Rendlesham UFO

John wrote:

 >Has anyone seen this "report"?
 >
 >http://www.bentwaters.org/rendleshamufo/cd-idnh.htm
 >
 >It makes an interesting read.

John,

Thanks for highlighting this.

I have previously been in contact with Chuck Dalldorf, as
mentioned in 'Voyager Newsletter No. 17':

A military exercise seems unlikely as it was the Christmas
holiday period, plus, any night-flying operations had
effectively been ruled out. Also during 1998, Chuck Dalldorf
told me:

"I was an aircraft maintenance technician with the 81st TFW
working on A-10A and prior to that F-4D's during my tour which
lasted from December 1977 through July 1981. I had also been
assigned several times to the 67th ARRS on temporary duty to
work on both the HC-130N/P's and the HH-53's as well.

[...]

One issue I would like to address right away is, the 67th ARRS
did not scramble any missions (either HH-53 or HC-130 during the
week between Christmas 1980 and New Year's Day 1981).

There were no alerts anytime during the week between Christmas,
1980 and New Years Day 1981 at RAF Bentwaters or RAF Woodbridge.
No alerts for the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing (A-10A) or for the
67th ARRS (HC-130 and HH-53).

[...]

There was a trip that I helped run with my landlord, Joe Haninia
of Woodbridge Town who ran a travel service for the base called
Big Ben Travel. The trip went from RAF Bentwaters to Edinburgh
to celebrate Hogmanay in Scotland. We left the base and were not
recalled. There were 28 people on the trip from both the 81st
TFW and the 67th ARRS.
[END OF NEWSLETTER EXTRACT]


Col. Halt also substantiated there were no helicopter flights
during the 'second' incident, when he became personally
involved.

 >From the 13 May, 1987 online conference ,hosted by Salley Rayl:

RAYL: ..What type of aircraft were at the base at that time and
were there any in the air at that time?

HALT: Yes.

RAYL: ...In other words...

HALT: There were approximately 120 to 125 A-10s. There were I'm
trying to think, about 12, 14 C-130s, several H-3s it was in a
rescue squadron, plus the A-10 squadrons. The A-10 squadrons
were done for the holidays. Not flying, doing any night flying.
The rescue squadron was done. In fact, the rescue commander at
that time, a good personal friend of mine, really chastised me
for not calling him immediately, cause he said I could have
gotten a chopper in the air within an hour or two. I kind of
don't believe that because, you know, you'd have trouble finding
a crew and get one free-flighted, but there was no aircraft
activity. In fact, the tower at Woodbridge was down.

RAYL: Well, it was Christmas time, too.

HALT: Yeah. It was Christmas time. In fact, the tower at
Bentwaters was manned only for an emergency. In other words,
there was a standby crew up there, but it was not active.

RAYL: So, there were no jets, helicopters or any other aircraft,
American aircraft, that were scrambled at that time.

HALT: There were none that were scrambled from Bentwaters, and I
knew of nothing in the air at that time.
[END OF CONFERENCE EXTRACT]


This was important, as a contrary claim had previously been made
by Sgt. Adrian Bustinza when interviewed by Larry Fawcett.
Bustinza was a colleague of Larry Warren and Fawcett's early, 20
April 1984, interview was subsequently published in 'Left at
East Gate' [LaEG], by Larry Warren and Peter Robbins.

I addressed this in 'Resolving Rendlesham':

Asked if he could substantiate a claim that helicopters could be
heard that night, Bustinza replied, "Yes, a squadron, pararescue
squadron was activated". In response to Fawcett's query,
"Pararescue. Where were they from? Woodbridge?", Bustinza
confirmed, "Woodbridge. they weren't very far away as a matter
of fact".

Additionally asked, "Do you know how many were up at the time?",
Bustinza stated, "I recall Major Zickler said, scramble two, I
believe he said".
[END OF ARTICLE EXTRACT]


However, Bustinza isn't the only witness who has indicated
helicopters featured during our 'second UFO incident'.

It occurs to me this is the first public disclosure of same.

The other claimant was Airman Greg Battram who also worked
alongside Warren.

The reason subscribers will not have been aware of Battram's
related comments is that they were, curiously, excluded from the
Fawcett interview transcript published in LaEG.

It's not the only omission, as I highlighted in 'Voyager
Newsletter No. 16', where I explained Battram's apparent
involvement in events:

The Lieutenant who drew Halt's attention to the flashing light
was Bruce Englund. Earlier that evening, Halt was attending a
belated officer's Christmas party when his festivities were
interrupted by Englund, who informed Halt the 'UFO was back'.

Why Englund believed the 'UFO' had returned, has recently become
much clearer.

The foundation was an incident which involved Airman Greg
Battram and his patrol.

[...]

Battram publicly come forward as a witness for the February,
1985 CNN special feature, presented by Chuck DeCaro. I have
acquired a transcript and Battram, at that time given anonymity
as 'Airman Greg', testified:

DeCaro: Airman Greg is a former Air Force security policeman who
says he was a witness to the second of the two UFO landings
within days of each other outside the USAF air base in
Woodbridge, England -- events documented in this official USAF
report released under The Freedom of Information Act. According
to the report, in the first encounter, before daybreak, three
security policemen saw a luminous metallic object and followed
it through the forest as it manoeuvred through the trees and
then disappeared... The following night, a four-man perimeter
patrol near the back gate of Woodbridge saw the UFO again.
Airman Greg was a member of the patrol.

Airman Greg: We were about halfway into the shift, I guess, when
we noticed some lights in the sky that, uh, didn't seem to
follow any pattern of aircraft we'd seen. And, uh, we, uh,
watched them for a while and they disappeared. And the next
thing we saw was, uh, the lights in the forest...in a clearing
off the end of the runway. And, uh, we called Central Security
Control to tell them we'd like to investigate it, and they gave
us permission to go on out. As we got in there, you could see
into the clearing and see a series of lights in there surrounded
by a ground fog. And when we got closer, you began to feel the
hair on your arms, and back of your heard, under your hat even,
stand on end. Like there was a real big static charge in the
air.

DeCaro: Were you carrying a weapon?

Airman Greg: Yes, an M-16.

DeCaro: Loaded?

Airman Greg: Yes, we didn't know what we were dealing with. And
about that time, we decided that we'd better get the heck out of
there 'cause we were getting a little scared to stand around...

DeCaro: Bentwaters-Woodbridge air base complex in east England,
Christmas Week, 1980. Three U.S. airmen claim an encounter with
a UFO at close range. About a day later, this man, who asked not
to be identified, was on perimeter patrol at Woodbridge airbase.

Airman Greg: The four of us saw...the object. We didn't know
what it was...we got panicky. When we got close enough to feel
our hair stand on end...ran back for our vehicle... [END]

Battram retold a similar account which was published in 'Left at
East Gate' [LaEG], co-authored by Larry Warren and Peter
Robbins, published in 1997. The interview with Battram was
actually undertaken on 7 February 1984 by 'UFO' researcher and
author Larry Fawcett and describing the 'strange lights',
Battram recalled they seemed to be "alternating, mostly between
oranges, red, blues and whites".

His story is almost a replay of events from that first night and
the scenario being posed is how 'something' returned to the same
clearing. It's extremely unlikely and infinitely more probable
'something' was simply still visible. As revealed in newsletter
No. 4, long after Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston [BC&P] had
gone to investigate the 'red and blue' lights, Jerry Valdez and
others could still see 'strange lights' from east gate - 'red,
blue and green'. Also, in the interview with Chris Armold,
published last newsletter, he confirms some red and blue lights
were still visible from this clearing, after BC&P had returned.

Battram states his patrol then met up with Lt. Bruce Englund and
told him about the forest apparition.

Presumably, this was the report which led Englund to inform Halt
that the 'UFO' had returned.

When Halt then assembled a "team of specialists" to investigate,
he included Englund [Duty Flight Lieutenant], along with
Sergeant Monroe Nevilles [Disaster Preparedness NCO], Master
Sergeant Bobby Ball [Shift Commander] and Master Sergeant
Chandler [Flight Chief], plus one other. Arriving at the
clearing, they didn't find anything unusual until Englund
noticed a distant, flashing light... which they did eventually
discover - although absent from any later retellings - was
'clear off to the coast'.

This brings us full circle and appears to set most of the 'UFO'
events from that night in their true context.

[...]

In the 'Left at East Gate' transcript of Fawcett's interview
with Battram, the dialogue is published as follows.

GB: We couldn't really see a distinct shape, but there were
alternating colours in it and the whole bit. It was really
strange. The closer we got, the worse the static electricity
feeling got, and we just said, "Fuck", and we turned around and
took off.

LF: Did you have weapons with you?

GB: Yes.

LF: You did?

GB: Yes. Guaranteed. I didn't know what the fuck was in there,
and I was not taking any chances.
[End]


However, the original transcript reads:

Greg: We couldn't really see a distinct shape, but there were
alternating colours in it and the whole bit. It was really
strange. The closer we got, the worse the static electricity
feeling got, and we just said _ _ _ this. And we turned around
and took off.

Larry: Did you have weapons with you?

Greg: Yes.

Larry: Did you throw a round in at anytime?

Greg: Yes.

Larry: You did?

GB: Yes. Guaranteed, I didn't know what the _ _ _ was in there
and I was not taking any chances.
[End]

[END OF NEWSLETTER EXTRACT]


Regarding the presence of helicopters that night, in LaEG, the
transcript of Fawcett's interview reads:

LF: Could you see all the light-alls they had out there?

GB: I could see a couple of them as they were bringing them out.

LF: OK. Were there a lot of personnel going out there?

GB: Well, it seemed like it, I saw twenty to thirty people.

LF: When did you hook up with Larry? When he tried to call his
mother that time?

[...]

[END OF LaEG INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT]


The original, more revealing, transcript records:

LF: Could you see all the light all's [sic] they had out there?

GB: I could see a couple of them as they were bringing them out.

LF: OK. Were there a lot of personnel going out there?

GB: Well, it seemed like it, I saw twenty to thirty people.

LF: How about choppers? Were there any of those up?

GB: No. Not that I know of, because we were on Woodbridge and we
didn't see any of them take off. Later on I think there was a
helicopter flight.

LF: Yes, because Bustinza told me that Zeigler (sic), Major
Zeigler had ordered the scramble of two choppers from
Woodbridge.

GB: Well, that could be because we did hear them starting their
engines and they did do that at night sometimes. We could see
one of them out there hovering around. Up above the normal
parking area. So in all the excitement and stuff like that. We
were just chattering our heads off about what we had seen. We
weren't really paying too much attention to our surroundings. We
went off and parked some place.

LF: When did you hook up with Larry? When he tried to call his
mother that time?

[...]

[END OF ORIGINAL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT]


Although Battram initially states there were no airborne
helicopters, he then says there was a hovering helicopter
visible and perhaps a later flight.

It's entirely contradictory to the evidence cited by Chuck
Dalldorf and Col. Halt.

A further insight was offered to myself some time ago by Chris
Armold. Chris was the Airman who, following that first night's
[BC&P] 'downed aircraft' concerns, called the local Martlesham
Heath police station to report a possible aircraft crash. For a
detailed background on his involvement, see 'Voyager Newsletter
No. 15'.

Chris commented:

"I appreciate the fact that you've approached this event with
your eyes a bit wider open than some of your associates. Of
course that means your story isn't nearly as interesting as what
they write because often the truth is far less sensational than
the imaginative creations of folks trying to make a few
quid/dollars on the side.

Regarding some of your questions: First about Adrian [Bustinza],
yes, I'm disappointed that he would make any assertions about
seeing some kind of space craft, aliens or whatever. It simply
didn't happen. If there had been an encounter in the open field
every person on duty at RAF Woodbridge would have seen it. Could
I be mistaken about him being with us on the 2nd night? I'm sure
he was as on the afternoon, he gave me a ride on his motorcycle.
It was the first and last time I have ever been on one. It
scared the shit out of me! That was far more frightening and
memorable than the darn UFO thing!

Okay, you wrote "Bustinza states that two helicopters were
scrambled from 'Pararescue squadron', on the orders of Major
Zickler. Greg Battrom also says helicopters were airborne."
hahahahahahahahhahahhaahhahahah, that is so fucking funny,
please excuse my language but that is hilarious! No way,
absolutely no way. First of all Major Zickler couldn't order an
airman from the motor pool to fill up his car with gas let alone
scramble a couple of helicopters! In addition, the 67th ARRS
guys were essentially on holiday, I doubt there was anyone
around to scramble in addition to the fact that they didn't have
"alert" choppers! A major in a Security Police squadron does not
have the authority to do that. Were there helicopters involved.
No, not one time, never. Why would there be? What sense would it
make? None, zero, nada. It's pure bullshit.
[END]

One thing I like about Chris is that he's always forthright. ;)

I would certainly go with the conclusion that helicopters were
never a factor.

An aside; as Larry Fawcett apparently didn't interview Bustinza
until 20 April 1984, how was he, on 7 February 1984 [both dates
reiterated in LaEG], able to tell Battram about Bustinza's
helicopter assertions?


There's one more aspect to Battram's story which is a critical
factor and if true, could require some re-appraisal of the
entire 'UFO' perspective.

As such, I'm surprised the following hasn't merited previous
discussion. In a moment, I'll explain why I haven't brought it to
light before now.

This concerns Battram's opening remarks from Larry Fawcett's
interview and I'm using the LaEG transcript which, with a couple
of editing exceptions, is verbatim - one disparity is noted.

 >From the beginning:

GB: I was in the Air Force up to this point a little over a year.
I had been in England about two months.

LF: OK, you were stationed at Bentwaters or Woodbridge?

GB: At Bentwaters.

LF: Were you attached to the Eighty-first Police Security
Squadron?

GB: Yes.

LF: What was your job there, Greg?

GB: I was in the planning and program section.

LF: Go ahead.

GB: We had an alert over there for exercises and things about
once or twice a month. And during those times, all the back-
  office people would go on a security post, additional posting
and stuff out there. So, the night we saw the UFO, we were out
there on duty, on one of these exercises, and it was nighttime.
Nothing going on but we all still had to be there, and we were
driving around on Woodbridge base on a perimeter patrol, and we
saw some lights up in the sky, and it looked a lot different
from any other aircraft we had ever seen.

We watched them for a while and then they disappeared... in a
clearing of a forest and that's when we saw the object or
whatever. We thought it was a fire at first.

[NOTE: The original transcript reads: "We watched them for a
while and then they disappeared. A short distance from where
they disappeared is a clearing and a forest and that's when we
saw the object or whatever. We thought it was a fire at first".]

When we saw that, we thought, oh boy, we could have some
problems out here, so we called Central Security Control and
told them we wanted to go out and see what it was. They said go
ahead and they would notify the base fire department and the
British authorities. So we took off out the back gate, there at
Woodbridge, and headed toward the forest.

LF: Who was with you, Greg?

GB: I can't remember the names of those guys. Three other guys in
the truck.

LF: OK.

GB: We got out there and parked the truck on the side of the
road and went walking in toward the clearing. Just as we got
about fifty yards away, we started to feel the hair on our necks
and arms and stuff stand up.

LF: Yes.

GB: And it felt really strange. And we could hear a thrumming
kind of sound.

LF: A what kind of sound?

GB: A thrumming noise coming out of the forest, from the
direction of that object. It had a ground fog all around it.

LF: OK.

GB: We couldn't really see a distinct shape, but there were
alternating colors in it and the whole bit. It was really
strange. The closer we got, the worse the static electricity
feeling got, and we just said, 'Fuck', and we turned around and
took off.

[...]

[END OF TRANSCRIPT EXTRACT]


If, as Battram relates, the 'second' incident occurred during a
training exercise, it's a significantly different overall
context, in many respects.

 >From my reading, Battram was one of those 'back-office people',
in the 'planning and program section'. He was only on patrol
duties because an exercise was taking place.

Once more, missing from the LaEG transcript is brief, yet
significant, interview material, when Battram adds:

"Then we went back to the perimeter of Woodbridge and stuck
around there. We could see some activity over there but that was
it. And then we got off at the other end of the base there and
got involved with exercises and horsing around and stuff. Never
did see any more from that point on. The next day was when we
heard all the silly stories and stuff. Oh! Sounds like ----
  city!".


Presuming no misunderstanding, Battram's evidence is not
trustworthy unless the second incident took place during a
military operation.

Conversely, if no such manoeuvres, then Battram wouldn't have
been, "on duty, on one of these exercises".


Strikingly, he further recollects [using the LaEG transcript]:

LF: And this incident was in December, right?

GB: Yes.

LF: OK.

GB: It seemed like a week before New Year's. Something like
that, it seemed real close to it.

LF: Were there any other sightings after that, Greg, that you
heard of?

GB: The stories went on for a while like they did before that
night. We heard a lot of stories about people seeing lights at
night and strange things. We thought they were all on dope.

LF: Yes.

GB: That's why it was strange that night, because it was the
second night we had been out on this alert. I had thought the
night before, now I get to see if these guys are really high or
if they're really seeing something. The night it happened, it
was like - Holy shit! there must be something in the water. [END
OF TRANSCRIPT EXTRACT]


If, "the second night we had been out on this alert" and if
Battram's testimony does relate to events which led to Col. Halt
[then Lt. Col. Halt] being informed by Lt. Bruce Englund that
the 'UFO was back', this ostensibly all took place in the midst
of ongoing base exercises/operations.

A recap; our two well-known 'UFO' incidents occurred during the
early hours of 26 December and the night/early hours of 27/28
December.

Consequent to my interviews with a number of contemporary base
personnel, I'm satisfied there were also comparative 'UFO'
sightings on the night of 26 December. It was a point which John
Burroughs, one of the three participants from that primary
'encounter' highlighted in recent discussions.

These were the 'three night's' which Larry Warren argued for and
how his own alleged experience happened on the _third night_.

Therefore, Battram's proclaimed two-night 'alert' would
seemingly be dated as 26 and 27 December - "the second night we
had been out on this alert" corresponding to when he observed
duly reported 'UFO phenomenon' and had informed Lt. Englund.

If, "I had thought the night before, now I get to see if these
guys are really high or if they're really seeing something", the
'night before' must refer to 26 December.

I would surmise it's Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston's
foremost 'Rendlesham forest UFO chase' he's alluding to and
whether, "these guys are really high or if they're really seeing
something".

No question that Battram was acutely on 'alert' for UFOs.


The unanswered question is whether any military operations were
in fact simultaneously scheduled.

Endeavours to clarify this were instrumental in why I hadn't,
"brought it to light before now".

It seems so improbable that training exercises would be
conducted during the Christmas/New Year holiday period. If they
had been, why were so many others on base seemingly oblivious to
this?

Maybe not so straightforward; from 'Voyager Newsletter No. 19':

A new witness I recently located is Mike Jenkins, who was NCOIC
of the Munitions Maintenance Shop at Woodbridge and then moved
to 'Bentwaters Missile Maintenance'. Mike has a strange tale to
tell and which he dates as occurring during some 'UFO'
excitement, specifically the morning after 'Lt. Col. Halt went
out on the night shift'.

If we could be sure about the dating, Mike's claims could have a
profound effect on the entire 'UFO' scenario.

He recalls:

"When I came in the next morning, all I saw was a lot of our
staff in uniform and in civilian dress, posted about the weapons
storage area, and everyone being told to not ask questions, just
do our jobs. To me it appeared to be no more than a regular
training or alert drill after which there is normally a higher
level of visible security at the twin bases anyway".

"As to the normal day to day operations training, alerts,
exercises, and such it was common practice to have senior SPS
personnel attempt to breach security of the WSA. These exercises
often resulted in supplemental staff being brought in from the
barracks to protect the area. That would account for SPS staff
in civilian cloths posted in the WSA. Again I was not there the
night of the incident, however, the morning after, staff in the
WSA were still in a heightened state of alert, i.e. more
personnel in the WSA than normal".

It's known that during 1980, there were large-scale training
exercises which involved the British Territorial Army. However,
these predated those late December, 1980 'UFO' events and asked
if he was possibly recalling this, Mike responds:

"I remember the joint exercises with the Territorials, it was
quite fun".

"The 'incident' was not the Territorials, because their practice
target was the Woodbridge WSA, as I was the NCOIC of the
Munitions Maintenance Shop at Woodbridge at that time.

I then moved to Bentwaters Missile Maintenance, which is when I
believe the Lt. Col. Halt excursion occurred".

[...]

[END OF NEWSLETTER EXTRACT]


I'm sure Jenny Randles especially will also now have in mind the
Royal Navy exercises which were reportedly being conducted off
Orfordness [Orford Ness] during this time. So far as I'm aware,
this was never confirmed as factual.

I remain uncertain what to make of Battram's claims, or Mike
Jenkins'.


Although it merely compounds matters further, there's another
testimony which could be more significant than initially
realised.

 >From 'Voyager Newsletter No. 18':

THE RAF WOODBRIDGE UFO HOAX!

Developments in the equally classic December 1980 RAF
Bentwaters/RAF Woodbridge [twin base] or 'Rendlesham forest'
[which separated the bases] 'UFO' case continues to produce new
witnesses, new evidence and some startling surprises...

"I was a Security Policeman at RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge from
mid 1978 to mid 1981. I arrived at Bentwaters as a SSgt, and
departed as a TSgt. I was a law enforcement specialist. While
there I worked as a patrolman, desk sergeant, assistant flight
chief, flight chief, training NCO, and QA evaluator".

"My Shift Commander was Lt Englund, and the Security Flight Chief
at the time was MSgt Bobbie Ball (Bobbie was known for how shiny
his boots were, even in the mud and rain). If I left QA six
months before I left Bentwaters in the summer of 1981, and my
Shift Commander was Lt Englund, and the Security Flight Chief was
MSgt Ball, then my incident is right in the ball park".

"I had no idea that this 'incident' existed until last night.
Naturally, it has been about the only thing I've been thinking
about since then, and the more I go over this 20 year old
memory, the more things I remember".

"One is about the kid that was working the [east] gate on the
first incident, and whom I played the joke on. I don't remember
his name, but he was a Security troop. Security worked the back
gate during late hours even though gates were normally the
responsibility of the LE [Law Enforcement] flight".

"That post was not a well liked one, and MSgt Ball did not
usually assign his favorite troops to that post".

"This particular kid was afraid of the dark, noises, etc. He was
constantly calling for the patrol to swing by. That patrolman
was usually me. I was the second ranking man on the LE Flight.
The ranking man was the flight chief, and worked on Bentwaters,
while the number 2 man usually worked as the only LE patrol on
Woodbridge".

"Anyway, I remember having to constantly go out to that gate and
hold this guy's hand. He was a perfect target for a practical
joke. Our jokes were not malicious, but they did tend to be
inventive and aimed at those troops that were most likely to
fall for them. This guy was definitely like to fall for it, as
he did - like a ton of bricks".

"The joke would have had to have happened late - after all the
initial patrol duties like relieving the main gate for chow, and
getting the first round of building checks done, and before
things began to pick up again, and we got bored and started
looking for a way to cause trouble. I can not say for sure, but
I would guess between 1:00 and 4:00 AM".

"Were there other UFO hoaxes? I don't know of any, but it is
entirely possible. It was a good stunt. Someone else could have
repeated it. In fact, most good cop practical jokes did get
repeated. We had some classics - sending someone out for 100
feet of flight line to rope off an area. Sending someone out for
a gallon of prop wash to clean patrol car windows with, sending
someone to the emergency room for a box of fallopian tubes for
the breathalyzer, etc.".

"We used at least three flashlights pointing upwards rolled up
in the windows of the patrol car. These lights were red, blue,
green, and possibly amber. The patrol car itself had the
American style square red and blue emergency rack on top with
revolving high intensity red and blue lights. It also had bright
white alley lights - these are lights that point to the side in
order to light up buildings as you drive past them at night. It
also had a bright white spotlight that I pointed as close to
straight up as I could. I had everything except my headlights
on. All of our vehicles, both Security and Law Enforcement had
the same or similar equipment".

"The flashlights, which were green, and maybe amber, where
nowhere as bright as the red, blue and white emergency lights,
which really lit up the night".

"One of the lights directed upwards was the patrol car's
spotlight. It is a very bright light that throws a beam a long
way".

"The night I did it I remember it as slightly foggy, probably
low lying fog. The lights lit the fog quite nicely, I should
think making a nice halo effect. The fog was, in fact, critical
for my prank, as you could see the light beams. Try shining a
bright spotlight in fog - you get the light sabre effect".

Strange red and blue flashing lights... beams of light on a foggy
night... aficionados of this celebrated 'UFO' case will recognise
some astounding similarities.

Does this begin to explain those contemporary 'UFO' sightings,
or is it merely all an incredible coincidence..

The full story will shortly be revealed...
[END OF NEWSLETTER EXTRACT]


That's 'shortly' as in 'eventually'.

Ian Ridpath has copies of the base weather records which record
'ground fog' on the night of 27 December.

Robert McLean also confirmed that, "...the only coloured light
I've seen there is a low pressure sodium lamp (the type that
produces the deep yellow colour - Sodium D-line to be technical)
at the eastern edge of the farm buildings, this is visible near
the unmarked road just east of the buildings".

Could this explain the 'yellow glow' and 'surrounding fog' which
so terrified Battram's patrol?

The 'UFO' hoax was also statedly in that timeframe and took
place between 1:00-4:00 a.m. when it was "slightly foggy" with
"probably low lying fog".


Concerning the latter, I can now publicly reveal, with
permission, that the story originates from SMSgt Kevin Conde.

Having read case material on my web site, Kevin contacted myself
as he believed his hoax might have been responsible for the UFO
sightings. Although there was a conceivable involvement relating
to those 'light beams' [Halt did of course document 'beams of
light' visible at 3:15 a.m. on the morning of 28 December], he
subsequently concluded why any direct association seemed
unlikely.

There was a prime reason, best elucidated by Kevin himself:

"This incident [hoax] occurred right after Christmas. For
reasons that are hard to explain it is my impression that I
pulled my stunt during an exercise. We would not have had an
exercise during the Christmas holiday. That is a strong
indication that my stunt is not the source of this specific
incident".

However, there is obviously evidence which, if reliable,
substantiates an exercise was being conducted, for some reason,
during the night of 27 December.

Furthermore, Kevin's stunt is dated "right after Christmas".

Looking back at the story he related, I see there's some
incidental information which could correlate with Battram's
account.

Battram was with a four-man patrol - "Three other guys in the
truck".

For reference, SMSgt Kevin Conde clarified:

"You mention ART and SRT in one article. An ART is an Area
Response Team, while SRT is a Security Response Team. They were
referred to on the radio as arts and sarts. ART's were two man
units and were assigned to specific aircraft parking areas, and
did not leave those areas. SRT's were roving patrols that could
go anywhere on the flight line. SRT's were also two man units.
However, during exercises SRT's went to three or four man
units".


I've asked Kevin and some other sources for their comments on
what has been highlighted above and the entire question of base
exercises during that holiday period.
[END OF UFORL EXTRACT]



Halt has since claimed that one of the 'beams' came down nearby
his team. If that could be substantiated, it would obviously
rule out any suggestion of Kevin Conde's/similar involvement.

There's more to Conde's story, yet to be published.


Meantime, any comments from Larry Warren would be particularly
welcome.


Larry, there is one aspect of your story which does seem to be
explained.

In 'Voyager' newsletter No. 14, I wrote:

I'm not sure if anyone else has spotted the connection with two
messages Warren states he heard over the radio:

"Then I heard a radio transmission: 'You people have to avoid
these hot spots. Remember they're marked, October Number One.
Over'. I knew the code October One meant first officer on site.

[...]

The radios were active. I could hear what sounded like pilot
communications. Someone reported over the air: 'Here it comes.
Here it comes. Here it comes'."
[End]

In fact, these are almost certainly snippets from the
communications which Halt recorded on his microcassette that
same night, namely:

1. HALT: The sample...you're going to mark this sample number
one...have them cut it off, and include some of that sap and
all...is between indentation two and three on a pine tree about
five feet away, about three and a half feet off the ground.

[...]

HALT: Same place where the spot is, we're getting a heat...

[...]

HALT: This is strange. Here, someone wanna look at the spots on
the ground? Whoops, watch you don't step...you're walking all
over 'em. OK, let's step back and not walk all over 'em.


2. HALT: 03:15. Now we've got an object about 10 degrees
directly south, 10 degrees off the horizon. And the ones to the
north are moving. One's moving away from us.

VOICE: Moving out fast.

VOICE: This one on the right's heading away, too.

HALT: They're both heading north. Hey, here he comes from the
south, he's coming toward us now.
[End]


Not 'October Number One', it was 'sample number one' and not
pilots, but Halt and company in the forest. Warren does mention
the presence of Halt and others, the light-alls which wouldn't
work (they were notoriously unreliable) and officers who seemed
to have come straight from a function.

 >From Larry Warren's various accounts, it does seem evident he
associates Halt's comments over the radio, i.e., "Hey, here he
comes from the south, he's coming toward us now", with a 'red
ball' of light which then 'exploded', after which a 'craft'
appeared on the ground.

[END OF EXTRACT]


Was Larry Warren involved on that third night?

It would be impossible, according to the evidence in LaEG, where
Larry recalls returning from Germany "on or about 27 December",
1980 and that the 'UFO' incident occurred on his next night of
duty, 28 December.

The 'third night' was 27 December.

However, he was on a stated three-day pass and left for Germany,
"the day before Christmas". Wouldn't that require a return on
the 26th, allowing for his next duty shift to be 27 December?


There is additional evidence why Larry may indeed have
participated in the 'UFO scare', as did many others that night,
and equally why it all could not even conceivably have resulted
in an alien spacecraft landing in the field in front of
farmhouses at Capel Green - effectively where those 'UFO'
sightings began three nights earlier.

However, more than enough to be addressed at present.


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:25:02 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

 >So, the question is really, were there two nights of activity or
 >three? If there were but two, then Warren wasn't involved. If
 >three... then maybe.

Yes, maybe...


James Easton.
E-mail: ufo@rendlesham.com
www.rendlesham.com








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   Jun > Jun 26

                     Mutilated Bovines Baffle Argentines

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 06:03:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:17:30 -0400
Subject: Mutilated Bovines Baffle Argentines


Source: United Press International,

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=3D24062002-063238-9584r

Stig

***

Mutilated bovines baffle Arg. Authorities

By Leandro Prada

**

 >From the International Desk

Published 6/24/2002 7:11 PM

*

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina, June 24 (UPI) -- Looks like Argentina
has a job for Mulder and Scully.

Theories ranging from UFO's to a mythical beast that's half
kangaroo, half bat, are being tossed around bbArgentina
following the discovery of some 200 mutilated cows in recent
weeks.

Argentine authorities have dispatched a special investigative
unit to the central provinces of La Pampa and Buenos Aires to
investigate the bizarre killings that left the 200 head of
cattle, one horse and handful of sheep slain with surgical
accuracy.

According to witnesses, mostly local farmers, the mutilated
cattle were found lying dead in pastures with only some parts
missing such as the animals' eyes, nose, larynx, rectum and
select internal organs. Some witnesses maintain that the animals
were found without a trace of blood around them. Authorities
investigating the incidents, however, say they found some blood
near the scene of the slayings.

While the country's National Health Service for the Quality of
Agrarian Food has yet to come up with an answer, many Argentines
have their own theories as to why the animals were slaughtered
in such an odd fashion.

A steady stream of images of slaughtered cattle on Argentine
television and in both tabloid and mainstream newspapers has led
to theories ranging from alien phenomena to a government
conspiracy.

Some Argentines believe the animals were slaughtered by extra-
  terrestrials or those entranced by a passing UFO. Others say
the slayings were the handiwork of the "Chupacabras," a
mythological beast that's half bat and half kangaroo with razor-
like claws capable of dissecting the cows with pinpoint
precision.

Still others think the whole bovine mystery is an attempt by the
government to distract Argentines from the country's ongoing
economic collapse.

"I'll tell you what is going on, they want to keep us busy,"
said one Buenos Aires resident.

This isn't the first time that the slaughtered cow phenomenon
has stumped area authorities.

Reports of cattle mutilations have popped up for decades along
the Argentine-Brazilian border and throughout Central America.
Similar occurrences have also been reported in the United
States.

**

Copyright =A9 2002 United Press International. All rights
reserved.








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   Jun > Jun 26

              Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey -

From: James Easton <ebay@jeaston.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 06:34:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:24:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey -


Regarding:

 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:53:31 +0200
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:05:25 -0400
 >Subject: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey

Stig highlighted:

 >Scotland was today dubbed "the Costa Del Sol for aliens" after
 >coming top of a league table of the world's UFO hotspots.

Costa Del Sol?

Since when was Scotland a 'sunshine coast'!?

Never and certainly not from our current, 'worst summer on
record'.

This wouldn't perchance be related to a Scottish Tourist Board
promotion?

 >Researchers have discovered that Scotland has the highest
 >concentration of UFO sightings of any country in the world.

You don't say... which "researchers" would that be?

 >The research was commissioned by VisitScotland, the country's
 >national tourist body...

And a fine job they do, as the Scottish Tourist Board.

 >...and a spokesman said: "This confirms that Scotland is the
 >nearest thing there is to the Costa del Sol for aliens."

Absolutely...

 >Bonnybridge councillor Billy Buchanan even called for a UFO
 >visitors' centre to be built in the village to cash in on the
 >phenomenon.

I'm sure he meant, "to maximise the UFO potential".

 >Stirling-based UFO expert Ron Halliday, author of the books 'UFO
 >Scotland' and 'UFOs: The Scottish Dimension', said: "When you
 >think of the number of sightings in Scotland compared to the
 >size of its population, it is phenomenal."

Who can argue with VisitScotland's research findings.

 >Mr Halliday also explained why he thought there were so many
 >strange sightings in the Bonnybridge area in particular. He
 >said: "One theory is that the area around Bonnybridge is some
 >kind of window into another dimension.

Chris Gibson, fellow Scotsman, aircraft recognition expert, oil-
  rig contractor and witness to the celebrated foremost
'unidentified north sea triangular-shaped airplane', has noted
Bonnybridge and vicinity might be more appropriately named, the
'Buckfast triangle' [do your own research on this...]

 >"That would explain why some people see a UFO and others don't -
 >-because a UFO. is some kind of paranormal phenomenon rather
 >than a nuts and bolts spaceship."

We live and learn... as always, from the, "UFO experts".

 >Graham Birdsall, editor of 'UFO' magazine, offered another
 >explanation as to why Scotland has become a UFO hotspot.
  said: "UFOs tend to be attracted to regions that are fairly
 >remote. Plus, if you have a remote area, look out for airbases -
 >- Scotland is littered with airbases.

And empty guesthouses....

 >According to the research, Scotland has 0.004 UFO sightings per
 >square kilometre and one sighting per 17,000 inhabitants.

 >By contrast, France has just 0.001 sightings per square
 >kilometre and one sighting for every 86,857 of its citizens. And
 >although the USA has 2,000 sightings a year, that works out at
 >just 0.0002 per square kilometre and one sighting for every
 >136,450 people.

Superb scientific research and evidenced by statistics.

So... can we clarify; who exactly were those 'UFO' researchers,
hired to undertake this "analysis of published UFO evidence".

Alternatively, why not just log onto:

http://www.visitscotland.com/

...and acknowledge what the 'UFO evidence' both comprises and
illustrates.


Meanwhile, from Asia:

http://asia.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/24/scotland.aliens.reut/index.html


"UFOs tend to be attracted to regions that are fairly remote.
Plus if you have a remote area, look out for airbases; Scotland
is littered with them," Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO magazine,
said.

"In 90 percent of UFO reports a bit of diligent research will
produce a simple explanation."

The figures' release coincided with what aficionados celebrate
as International UFO day, the anniversary of June 24, 1947.

On that date, a U.S. air force pilot claimed to have spotted
nine mysterious disc-shaped objects over the Cascade Mountains
in Washington, leading to the term "flying saucer." [END]


A toast... with prerequisite glass of The Macallan single
malt... Here's to those perceived [although alarmingly not by
the singular witness] 'flying saucers' and how they have popped
up, over fifty years later, as the Scottish Tourist Board's
latest marketing tool.

Cheers!


James Easton.
E-mail: ufo@rendlesham.com
www.rendlesham.com








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   Jun > Jun 26

                             Re: Fortean Times?

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:19:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:26:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Fortean Times?


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:48:25 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Fortean Times?

 >Hello Chris:

 >It sounds like they let their domain name registry expire,
 >or forgot to pay their host. I hope some speculator doesn't
 >find out if its the first thing, but that might have
 >happened already.

Hope I'm wrong but I think the domain was registered by the
hosting company and not by Fortean Times. Some hosting companies
seem to register in their own name when they do it for you :(

Regards,

John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports
and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Filer's
Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and UFO Sightings Italia.








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   Jun > Jun 26

                Re: Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:31:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:31:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day -


 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:37:07 -0400
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day


 >Source: The Irish Examiner

 >http://www.online.ie/news/irish_examiner/viewer.adp?article=3D1771513

 >25 Jun 2002

 >Flying Saucers Out In Force On UFO Day

 >By M=EDche=E1l Lehane

 >SEVERAL strange objects appeared in the skies over Ireland as
 >UFO day was being celebrated by astronomers worldwide yesterday.

<snip>

 >2002: Several bright craft are spotted in the night skies
 >between Dublin and Armagh. Astronomers say these objects come in
 >peace from other planets.

The day that "astronomers" celebrate UFO Day and talk about
objects coming in peace (or any other way) from other planets...
will be the day Ireland freezes over. (Time for another kiss of
the blarney stone, maybe?)








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   Jun > Jun 26

                        Second Cattle Mute In Uruguay

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:49:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:43:47 -0400
Subject: Second Cattle Mute In Uruguay


SOURCE: Terra.com/Radio El Espectador (Uruguay)
DATE: June 25, 2002 -- 15:52 hrs.

ANOTHER DEAD BOVINE DISCOVERED
**Possibility of Health Problem Dismissed**

As occurred in Durazno and the Argentinean Pampa cases, another
bovine has been found dead with perfect cauterized incisions on
its head and hide. Its tongue and salivary glands had been
removed along with its mammaries, rectum and part of its large
intestine and genitalia.

This time it occured in Cardona, Department of Soriano, acording
to the Director of Livestock Health of the Ministry of
Livestock, Hip=F3lito Tapi=E9. The bureaucrat reported that
specialists from the Secretary of State had already drawn
samples from the two animals found dead in Uruguay.

"Our own specialists went to extract samples in order to submit
them to lab analysis in the hopes of diagnosing something,"
stated Tapi=E9, admitting that the specialists do not have much
else to do. "We haven't done much more becuase only a single
animal was found in Durazno. The same is happening at Cardona.
[We only have] a single animal." The Livestock official
dismissed the possibility that a health problem could be the
cause. The ministry has also manifested its astonishment.

"It should be qualified as a curious situation, not a health
one, since the extraction of organs is not caused by any
disease."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.







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   Jun > Jun 26

                  Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:23:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:47:39 -0400
Subject: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160


SOURCE: La Nueva Provincia
DATE: Tuesday, June 25, 2002

CATTLE MUTILATION CASES REACH 160

These only include reported events. Veterinarians insist that
due to different reasons, about 50% of the cases have been
reported. In the meantime, reports of strange lights, colors and
circles continue to appear. At General Campos, a grower claims
having been able to film the phenomenon. Bernardo Cane, SENASA's
director, claims that these cases are the work of "rogue
surgeons" and dismissed the possibility that extraterrestrials
could be at work here

Far from decreasing, the number of cases recorded now extends
over eight provinces of the country and even Uruguay. In the
region close to Bahia Blanca, the events recorded up to
yesterday afternoon totaled 160, with 13 cases highligthed in
the Pampan locality of La Adela and Coronel Pringles.

The incisions performed on bovines are characterized by their
meticulousness and precision. (Agencia Carhu=E9)

The provinces involved are:

Buenos Aires, La Pampa, C=F3rdoba, Santa Fe, Entre R=EDos, Santiago
del Estero, R=EDo Negro and Chubut.

To the south of Puelches, 8 animals were found mutilated in lots
2 and 22 of the Department of Curaco. Two of the cases were
recorded in a field of Augusto Bartolome and involved two cows
missing their genitals, an ear, an eye and part of their
jawbone. [...]

As regards the strange sightings, police officers of the
community of Lonquimay alerted their colleagues in [the town of]
Miguel Riglos of a light moving through the skies in a southward
direction, headed toward Macachin, Rolon and Alpachiri.

Police sources, who withheld their identities, said that at
least two objects were reported, and local residents agreed with
this. "We saw a light similar to that of a headlight, crossing
the skies from the vicinity of Rol=F3n toward Alpachiri, where it
became lost. Its position was at 20 degrees and it only took 3
seconds to cross the distance," said a witness

What is curious about this case is that the sighting was made by
several police stations, who informed each other of the news
over a radio receiver. These versions agree with the recording
made by Nestor Pelayo on May 19th--at night-- at General Campos,
also agreeing with statements made by local residents and
hunters. There can be no doubt that these phenomena, together
with the cattle mutilations are whetting the interest and even
fear of residents of the Pampas.

Another Dwarf Reported

While the strange lights continue appearing and crossing the
airspace over Macach=EDn, sightings of a "green dwarf" were made
known in several locations of the south of the Pampan province.

Police officials of this locality, based on the reports of a
rural worker, found --on the edge of Provincial Rt. 1-- an
individual lying on the southern access ramp to the route in
question and who claimed to be "sunbathing", according to the
response given by the man to the law enforcement agents.
According to the police, the man is Jose Artigas, 59, a native
of Buenos Aires with no fixed abode, who is touring the country
after having lived in Brazil for 2 years.

The physical characteristics of this person are the following:
1.5 meters tall, longish greying hair, pale complection, dark
eyes and dressed in black trousers and a green sport coat, aside
from being barefoot.

Can=E9 Speaks out Again

Bernardo Can=E9, SENASA's director, spoke out yet again against
the theories circulating in regard to cattle mutilations as
being something out of the ordinary, citing a book published in
France dealing with the subject of "rogue surgeons."

"There is a very important bibliographical work which reports
that this type of "rogue surgery" has been seen sporadically in
the US and Europe. There is even a book entitled The Rogue
Surgeons written by a French author," he pointed out.
[Translator's note: Card=E9 refers to "Le Grand Carnage" by Michel
Grainger].

"The subject is neither new, nor Argentinean, nor a green dwarf,
nor the "petiso orejudo" nor the phantom lights, nor the
Goatsucker. It would be better to say that it's the Gin Sucker,
if anything..." he joked.

Can=E9's new theory is appended to the one he expressed last
Friday, when he pointed out that cow deaths are normal this time
of year and believed that the theft of their organs could be
attributed to "isolated cases of esoteric activity."

Esta nueva teor=EDa de Can=E9 se suma a la expresada el =FAltimo
viernes, cuando se=F1al=F3 que la mortandad de vacas es habitual en
esta =E9poca del a=F1o y sostuvo que la ablaci=F3n de sus =F3rganos
podr=EDa obedecer a "casos aislados de pr=E1cticas esot=E9ricas".

(C) 2001. La Nueva Provincia.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.







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   Jun > Jun 26

                         Von Daniken's Mystery Park

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:22:44 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:46:44 -0400
Subject: Von Daniken's Mystery Park


This note will really please certain UpDateans.

The website for Erik Von Daniken's Mystery Park has just been
updated. It includes details of the financing for the
"Disneyland-style" alien theme park, pics of its construction
and factsheets about various things like pyramids, Stonehenge,
space travel and SETI.

It's scheduled to open in 2003 at a cost of about 80 million CHF
(Francs).

Is that a lot of money?

www.mysterypark.ch








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   Jun > Jun 26

              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:48:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:00:08 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:00:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

 ><snip>

Robert, Bob, and List;

 >>Isn't what happened that at 17 miles the balloon device dropped
 >>to an altitude that caused it to disappear from the radar set
 >>which was tracking it from White Sands, or wherever?

Tracked from Alamogorodo. Flight 4 was a calibration test, done
to evaluate the feasability of tracking these balloon systems
with radar. The data indicated that this was not going to work,
and the trailing bomber broke off soon after launch.

<snip>

 >As I recall from the Moore account we only have one launch that
 >fits the bill so to speak. We also only have _one_ person, i.e.
 >Moore who says that his diary/journal claimed that a launch took
 >place on June 4th.

Actually, the diary in question was not Moore's, but Albert
Crary's, who was the on-site director of operations. So that
makes two people.

(Entry for Jun 4, 1947)"...Flew regular sono buoy up in cluster
of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on
plane."

Moore's recollections, given _before_ the diary was found, fit
Crary's entry.

 >As I recall we have no other records or
 >information that can be verified that in fact can confirm that a
 >balloon and package was even launched.

At least there _is_ a record- writen, verified as authentic, and
very solid. Remember that there are _no_ records of any kind
that can confirm that the Army Air Force recovered a saucer. :)

 >Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
 >data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
 >currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
 >to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17 miles
 >of the ranch. Now I would point out that apparently nobody
 >independent of Moore has run an analysis of the same data, i.e.
 >upper air currents, payload etc etc.

This is correct... but note that the analysis of Moore's puts
flight #4 _within_ 17 miles, _not_ 17 miles "short"!

It is worth noting that this kind of analysis cannot, by any
stretch, provide a precise prediction- the kind that would
place Flight #4 exactly on Foster's Ranch.

Prof Moore was an ackowledged expert on meteorology, and it
would be very difficult to dispute his conclusions. However, if
you would like to get another opinion, you can get the weather
service data from Kevin Randle. He is the one who gave the data
to Prof Moore.

 >As I recall there was _no_ radar tracking data of that flight
 >what so ever.

Incorrect. Radar tracking by a trailing bomber was attempted,
(which was the purpose of the flight, and the reason it carried
Rawins) but the returns were very poor (Crary diary entry for
June 4). Moore recalled that the bomber broke off tracking very
soon after launch.

 >Apparently based upon that we have Moore pronouncement that the
 >package/balloon accounted for the debris field. In essence the
 >theory at best was 17 miles short.

Nope - the word "short" is incorrect. Moore prediction for
flight #4 said it should have landed "within" 17 miles of the
actual impact site.

Aside from that, 17 miles is amazingly close. Meterology is not
a precise science. Any expectations for more accuracy is just
wishful thinking.

 >I find it amusing that one one hand skeptibunkers will seize
 >upon a skeptical theory that at best is 17 miles short and
 >pronounce that as a valid, scientific explaination of what
 >happened.

Even more amusing is the notion that Moore's prediction, which
came within 17 miles, is somehow a shortcoming. Talk to any
meteorlogical expert (your local TV weather guy/gal would be a
good source) and I will predict that you will get the opinion
that Moore's data is very impressive evidence.

Even if you leave out Moore's recollections, the evidence is
very solid that Flight 4 was indeed launched. We can (I predict
we always will!) debate whether Brazel found rements of flight
4, or something else. But we should not be debating the
existance of Flight #4.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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   Jun > Jun 26

                          Filer's Files #26 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:57:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:50:28 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #26 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #26-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 26, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

UFO SIGHTINGS: New Hampshire sphere, Virginia flying triangle,
Georgia flying triangle, Florida flash, Arkansas daylight
cylinder, Texas daylight disk, Nevada flying triangle,
California orb, Washington triangle, Canada lights, Argentina
mutilations reach 100 +, UK flashing lights and Scotland claims
to be top UFO spot.

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN said in Chicago on May 5, 1988, "But
I've often wondered, what if all of us in the world discovered
that we were threatened by an outer -- a power from outer space,
from another planet." "Wouldn't we all of a sudden find that we
didn't have any differences between us at all, we were all human
beings, citizens of the world, and wouldn't we come together to
fight that particular threat?" Question-and-answer session after
a speech about human rights and the Soviet Union. At the height
of the Cold War it was thought inconceivable that the Soviet
Union and the US would become allies. Truth is often stranger
than fiction.

LARGE ASTEROID NARROWLY MISSES EARTH

The Earth narrowly missed being struck by an asteroid the size
of a football field last week. Astronomers apparently failed to
spot the asteroid that missed Earth by only 75,000 miles until
three days after it flew past. This is a comparatively close
miss that could have caused major damage on Earth. If the
asteroid hit Earth in a populated area the explosion could have
caused major damage. The asteroid was not detected until three
days after it came close to the Earth on June 14, 2002. It is
not known if classified military satellites had picked up the
object. The object passed by Earth at less than a third of the
distance to the moon. If the asteroid hit in a populated area it
could have caused considerable loss of life similar to a nuclear
explosion. Hitting the ocean the asteroid would have likely
caused damaging tidal waves. The asteroid, provisionally named
2002 MN, was traveling at more than 23,000 mph when it was
spotted. NASA concentrates its efforts on bodies bigger than a
one kilometer across. Asteroids of this size could potentially
destroy civilization as we know it. Comparatively small amounts
of money are spent to spot and protect Earth from incoming
visitors. Currently, there is no dedicated program searching for
objects of 2002 MN's size although Britain is testing telescopes
on the Spanish Island of La Palma that might eventually spot
smaller asteroids.

NEW HAMPSHIRE WHITE SPHERE

MANCHESTER -- The witness was sitting on my back porch having a
cigarette on June 10, 2002, at 9:15 PM, and saw something I
thought was a little strange. I live in Manchester, which has an
airport and I have seen many airplanes, but this was different.
I happened to look up and I saw a sphere, definitely at a high
altitude moving across the sky. I have seen planes at this high
altitude, but am able to see their flashing lights. This was
just a white sphere. The light from it seemed to dim and grow at
certain points, but it could have been cloud cover, I am not
sure. However, this craft had no visible blinking lights, which
I thought was strange. It was moving at a good speed over the
middle of the city heading in a south east direction. I only saw
it for a minute, but definitely strange. ( NUFORC Note: Peter
Davenport reports the ISS was visible from NH at 21:58 hours. We
do not know how accurate the time of the incident is here.)

VIRGINIA FLYING TRIANGLE

VIRGINIA BEACH -- The witness reports that on June 6, 2002, "I
went to meet a friend for a walk on the board walk to observe
the storm coming in at 8:15 PM, and we looked at the southern
gray sky and saw a black flying triangular object in the sky."
At first I thought it was a plane, but realized that it did not
move. This black triangle occupied exactly the same spot in the
sky while I walked two blocks, and stopped a neighbor and asked
her if she saw something, she looked and said, "What is it?" I
said I don't know, she decided it was a kite. The object had not
moved and was high enough for the clouds to occasionally pass
between the object and the ground. In the next 5 minutes the
stormy sky became too dark to see the object. The black flying
triangle had silently hovered at cloud level for ten minutes
before the darkness and storm obscured it. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com

SOUTH CAROLINA WOBBLER

CHARLESTON -- Donna J. Bullock writes, " Since I moved from
Texas to South Carolina almost a year ago, I had not had any
sightings until Friday, June 13, 2002. At about 10:30 PM, I saw
a wobbler in the southeastern sky. "It was too far away to
describe and appeared only as a light in the sky, but acted like
the usual object, skittering here and there, going up and down
and putting on a show." It definitely was not a star, nor was it
an airplane; an airplane did cross underneath it on its way to
land at the Charleston airport. I really miss the open Texas
skies. There are too many trees for a skywatcher here. Thanks to
Donna J. Bullock.

GEORGIA ELONGATED FLYING TRIANGLE

FLOWERY BRANCH -- The observer was fishing off the bow of his
boat looking at the stars and noticed one of the brighter stars,
did a U turn and took off and disappeared on June 6, 2002. I
know this wasn't a satellite as it moved way too quickly. It
moved across the sky maybe two hand lengths then started to
distance it's self, till I could no longer see it.

TIFTON -- MUFONGA's Dr. Joye Pugh, a MUFON Consultant contacted
State Director Tom Sheets on Saturday, June 8, 2002, at about
10:30 PM, the witness and her husband was traveling northeast on
Highway 319 toward Ocilla. About four miles out of Tifton her
cell phone rang and a female apologized for a wrong number. Dr.
Pugh thought this unusual as it had never happened before.
Shortly thereafter, she noticed some specific lights low above
the trees off to the left. The sky was overcast but the glow of
the city lights from Tifton lit up this section of cloud cover.
They considered these particular lights to be unusual because
they were so low. Proceeding on, they approached closer and she
observed an aircraft shaped like an elongated triangle. She
further noted there was a white light at each corner and a red
light in the bottom center. She was close enough that she could
clearly see the dark triangle shape against the glow of the
overcast. Traffic prevented her from pulling over, so she drove
on a short distance and turned into a water tower area. Quickly
looking back, she saw the lights slowly move across the road.
She turned around and drove back to get a closer look, but could
not locate it. She drove back toward Tifton and turned off onto
another road in her search, then encountered two additional but
indistinct craft with lights to her front, but they were
opposite the glowing overcast and against a black sky. They
could hear the sound of roaring jet engines apparently coming
from the lights/craft, as they seemed to fly along very slowly.
These lights went back to the area where first observed, and as
Dr. Pugh got turned around and drove to the tower, once again
she observed the hovering lights. Headlights from passing
traffic blinded her momentarily, the lights then crossed the
road again and disappeared as she continued to negotiate
traffic. This, in my opinion, is a classic triangle encounter
made even more UNUSUAL by what Dr. Pugh described as secondary
indistinct slow moving craft ('things') with lights, accompanied
by a sound like roaring jet engines. Dr. Pugh made a valiant
effort to close with these unknown craft. John Bodin, MUFONGA's
Deputy Director for South Georgia and Dr. Pugh will investigate
further. Thanks to Tom Sheets, SD MUFONGA

FLORIDA FLASH

BOCA RATON -- The witnesses' husband couldn't sleep on June 6,
2002, so he was working on the computer in the kitchen at 5:30
AM. After calling him numerous times he finally came to bed, and
as he laid down a bright flash of light came in the window. It
was a bright strobing light that soon went out. We both looked
out the window and did not see anything. Our yard which is
fenced in so no light from the streets can get in. I stayed
awake for about 1/2 hour and watched out my window for anything
strange. About 6:00 AM, it flashed again on the side. We went
outside to look and found nothing. Two weeks before about 4:00
AM, I saw small lights in the yard around the pool and our 150
palm trees. I saw two lights about the size of a small
flashlight in the trees about 3 feet from the ground. Another
light was in the top of the palm on the opposite side of the
yard. I woke up my husband and said look at the lights in the
yard. They flashed like large bugs, but they would have to be a
foot long to produce a light of that size, so I assumed it was
not bugs. One flew by the window and went straight up over the
house. The other two were still in the bushes. He decided to go
outside in the screened patio to see up close and was only 3
feet from the bushes with the lights.  He called to the lights
and they flew around the back of the bushes and flew up into the
air and disappeared but they sure scared us! Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC.

ARKANSAS DAYLIGHT CYLINDER

LONSDALE -- Richard B. Baccari writes, "I live in rural town and
have been watching the sky since my mother had a sighting 30
years ago. Until today I was always able to explain whatever I
had seen. I was pulling into my road at 3:55 PM, on June 14.
2002, and just happened to glance at the clear sky and saw a
white bar or cylinder. I could only see two dimensions. At arm's
length it was the width of two fingers and the thickness half a
finger. It was definitely close enough to establish that there
was no wing, tail, window, or rotor configuration. It was just
plain dull white and was not a reflective surface? It made me
think cylinder as it was traveling east very slowly without
making any noise. It flew over in less then a minute. I realized
then I had stopped the car in the middle of the road, took a
quick glance in the mirror to see if I was blocking any one, and
looked up and it was gone. This was no ordinary craft. Thanks to
at Richard B. Baccari bartilini@aol.com

NEVADA ORANGE GLOWING FLYING TRIANGLE

LAS VEGAS -- The witness reports that on June 6, 2002, a glowing
orange light was seen at 10:30 PM. We watched it disappear then
reappear three times over a sixty-second period before going
behind the mountains. The last time we saw it, the orange glow
was coming from three orange lights in a triangular shape. The
object was large and had mass but there was no sound.

(Peter Davenport reports, "This was the date that 'The Amazing
Kreskin," predicted a dramatic UFO sighting would occur over
Nevada.   On June 7, 2002, he retracted, and stated that the
"prediction" had been a hoax, designed to show how gullible
human beings can be regarding the UFO phenomenon. Sounds like he
was pretty gullible to retract his prediction. Thanks to NUFORC.

CALIFORNIA CHROME ORBS SIZE OF A BASKET BALL

CONCORD -- On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 10:45 AM, two workers
saw two balls about the size of a basketball flying overhead.
The objects were chrome in color and one seemed to be moving up
about as high as a passenger jet flying overhead. The witness
stated, "The second one was dropping toward us and moving west.
The bottom was transparent. They were getting further apart from
each other with the higher one moving up and out of sight in
three minutes. The second kept getting closer moving west faster
and dropping at about 4 to 5 thousand feet. It just seemed to
slow and stop. It seemed to stay just outside the landing
patterns of our local airport and after five minutes of watching
this (orb) it accelerated so fast to the west you would have
missed it if you blinked your eyes. Thanks to NUFORC.

CANADA EGG SHAPED LIGHT AND CATTLE MUTILATION

BRANTFORD -- At 3:20 AM on June 3, 2002, a very bright object
appeared just south of URSA Major in the night sky. The bright
object suddenly appeared and glowed very brightly and moved
slowly southwest. The object was two or three times brighter
than Venus and was a white/yellowish color. It stayed bright for
only 4 seconds then faded to a point of light for another 15
seconds until it disappeared. There was no noise at all.

AURORA, ONTARIO -- The witness reports that on June 6, 2002, "We
were sitting in the car and then out of no where, this greenish
white egg shaped thing flew across the sky at 11:35 PM. It moved
too slowly to be a shooting star, and too fast to be a plane, it
soared downward to the ground, in almost a round line; like a
semicircle. Thanks to NUFORC

MUTILATION -- This report of a mutilated six year old Charolais
bull was reported to me by the owner and the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police. When I arrived, I very carefully assess the
situation, walk the perimeter at hundred yards and all the area
close to the animal etc. This I do to check for any tracks, odd
smells, and anything unusual, like the behavior of the animals.
This was an authentic mutilation, and one of the most
interesting cases in the six years. This bull was lying in a
small clump of Willow trees facing West. The tongue was removed
as well as the left eye and left ear. The penis was sticking
out, and the testicles and rectum were removed. On the stomach
area was a very neat laser type incision, oval shape 14 inches
by 9 inches. The skin was never found and the flesh had not been
touched. The was also removed with the same precision. Samples
of blood, soil and grass were taken Laboratory results show that
only pure Hemoglobin remained and that very sophisticated
equipment was needed to reduce the blood to only hemoglobin.
This like doing Brain surgery in the kitchen with kitchen tools.
Claudia Scheffer, another local, witnessed an intense light
outside, while the lights in my house dimmed. The dogs were
barking and I went out and saw a light in the sky, as did
others. Thanks to fbelzil@telusplanet.net and SHnSASSY1@aol.com

MEXICO SHEEP MUTILATED

JUAREZ -- The Grupo Juarense de Investigacion Ovni is
investigating the mysterious mutilations of sheep in that
region--possibly the first since 1996-1997. More information
will be posted as it is received. Thanks to Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology

ARGENTINA 200 ANIMAL MUTILATIONS

SALLIQUEL=D3 --*Doctor Daniel Belot, a SENASA Technician in
Salliquel=F3, was the veterinarian who analyzed the first animal
mutilation in the area. He has examined over a dozen cases for
which he can find no explanation, and is disconcerted. He is
convinced that the perpetrators arrived by aerial means and is
certain that the animals were slain elsewhere and subsequently
dumped in the field. He asks that all strange animal deaths be
reported promptly. Dr. Belot, who is a technician for SENASA,
claims having never seen anything similar and believes that only
those who have seen any such case can understand the magnitude
of the events. The expert has been asked to analyze over a dozen
cases, and common patterns appear but no explanation can be
found. The near-certainty that the perpetrator arrives by air,
and the certainty that the deaths occurred 3 to 4 days earlier
at a location other than where the carcasses were found only
adds to the state of confusion. He is an acknowledged
professional with a solid reputation and an official for a
national delegation of SENASA. Dr. Belot urged cattlemen to
report any anomalous case immediately to aid the investigations.

Dr. Belot was called in by a cattleman who found half his bovine
skinned to the bone. Dr. Belt suggested some animal must have
eaten it, which the cattleman rejected, saying that no animal
eats in a straight line. Upon investigation, "I was confronted
by an unnerving sight, "The animal lay on the ground, and the
entire left side of its face was skinned to the bone beneath the
eye. All of its molars were visible." "When we performed the
necropsy we found that it was missing its tongue, vocal
apparatus, there was no blood inside or outside the animal. It
was perfectly clean with no tearing of the flesh like predators
do. "It is a deed that appears to have been carried out by
humans, but even so it's something very hard to do." Dr. Belot
sent samples to the University of Buenos Aires' School of
Pathology and the only response he received is that they cannot
determine how the incisions were made. He did not establish the
animal's cause of death, blood samples taken from other animals
to detect strange substances "have yielded no results so far.

Dr. Belot, says vital organs were missing in most of them. "In
the first case, the animal was missing all of its maxillaries,
but others were missing testicles and penises, ears, mammary
glands, rectums and vaginas. All of this suggest some kind of
scientific research, but don't ask me why a scientist is going
to conduct research in different farms without asking for
permission. There were no tracks around the mutilated animals
and strange for no other animal to come near. When Dr. Belot
reached the animals many had been dead for 3 or 4 days. "In many
cases they were not yet bloated and did not give off any odor.
In others, they presented normal alterations, which increases
the uncertainty." "The only marks I saw within a ten meter
radius, is that the grass has continued to grow, but no animal
will step into that circle, despite the fact that the grass is
in good shape." Belot points out that "after some time, the dead
animals have been attacked by predators. But until recently,
they wouldn't come close." The veterinarian noted that generally
the rest of the animals sort of "mourn" the deceased animal, but
that has not occurred and they appear indifferent, looking from
a distance without coming close." Belot emphasized, "The animals
were killed elsewhere and dumped there, this is inferred by the
way the carcasses have been positioned. Sheep and at least four
horse mutilations have also been reported. These fields are
often practically inaccessible; it was only possible to reach
them on a tractor and it often necessary to cross flooded areas.

Santa Rosa -- Police officers claimed to have witnessed an UFO
in the Pampan community of "25 de Mayo" and are looking into the
possibility that UFOs have something to do with the dozens of
mutilated animals found in the provinces of La Pampa, Rio Negro
and Buenos Aires. The incident can be added to a similar event
which occurred June 19, 2002, in the Las Le=F1as tourist complex
of the province of Mendoza, where dozens of witnesses saw a UFO
fly over. Thanks to Diario "Nuevo D=EDa" (Coronel Su=E1rez, Prov. of
Buenos Aires) Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Translation (C) 2002. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.

Editor's Note -- Ranchers are sending their families to town,
and keeping watch over their fields 24 hours a day. Various
lights have been reported hovering above the fields. Large tanks
of water holding thousands of gallons of water are found dry.
Other reports have indicated that an underwater base exists off
the coast of Argentina and craft are frequently seen entering
and departing the ocean. Its possible these events could be
connected. See map http://www.filersfiles.com

URUGUAY: FIRST REPORT OF CATTLE MUTILATIONS.

The discovery of a dead cow On June 24, 2002, whose tongue, eyes
and genitals were extracted in a livestock region of the
Uruguayan interior has raised concern in the country. The first
case was reported today in the Department (province) of Durazno,
some 300 km from Montevideo. Mayor Carmelo Vidallin tried to
cool down rumors by saying that "we must await the expert's
verdict", referring to the Ministry of Livestock and
Agriculture, which is working at the site. The mayor said, " No
signs of blood or a struggle between the animal and its victim
were found." Obscure esoteric practices could be at work has not
been rejected, since they are common throughout the country.
However, the animals sacrificed in these rites have been
chickens and hens. Thanks to Scott Corrales, Institute of
Hispanic Ufology. Translation (C) 2002.

UNITED KINGDOM UFO WITH FLASHING LIGHTS

STROOD, KENT -- On Monday, June 10, 2002, "at around 11:30
p.m.," a family staying aboard their boat at the Hoo Marina on
the River Medway, near Rochester and Strood, Kent, saw traveling
from west following the river, a brightly lit UFO. "We are
moored in Hoo Marina, and it went right over the top of us, and
it was around one-and-a-half times the size of our vessel, which
itself is almost 50 feet (15 meters) in length the witnesses
reported. "Loud helicopter noises were preceding it but the
object of interest had no discernible sound. Flying at treetop
level, it should have been extremely loud." But the UFO made no
sound. The object took two minutes to go into the near-distance,
at which point it hovered for approximately one minute, and then
carried on. Very bright white lights on each corner. Each was
flashing in synchronization, at half-second intervals,
especially at the leading part and center. None of these lights
seemed to illuminate either the ground or cast any reflection on
its own surface. The object was either black or dark, though, if
the latter, certainly not light enough to be seen as gray in
color. Main lights were flashing, although no beam effects were
noticed at all. "Our Doberman dog was agitated and on edge
during the time. Thanks to Eric Adams and Chris Rolfe of UFO
Monitors-East Kent and UFO ROUNDUP Vol # 25 June 18, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

SCOTLAND RANKED TOP SPOT FOR ALIEN VISITORS

The London Observer claims that Scotland is usually associated
with spectacular mountains and tumbling rivers. But Scotland has
a proud new boast; it has become the landing strip of choice for
flying saucers and other mysterious, metallic, hovering craft.
More odd incoming craft have been tracked over the hills and
glens than anywhere else on Earth, and UFO enthusiasts are
flocking north to experience close encounters of the Caledonian
kind. A survey published reveals that 300 UFOs are seen in
Scotland each year -- four times as many as in France and Italy,
which appear to be aliens' next favorite destinations. When you
think of the number of sightings in Scotland compared to the
size of its population, it is phenomenal. Yet it is not remote
Highland that play host to the visitors. The Nineties saw a
sudden surge of sightings in the central Scottish areas of West
Lothian and Stirlingshire, and particularly around Bonnybridge,
near Falkirk. 'The area has become known as the Falkirk
triangle. Some people have encountered shimmering discs just
yards away from their bodies, while others said they had been
attacked by UFOs. The most famous such incident occurred in
1979, when forestry worker Bob Taylor claimed a gang of large
shimmering spheres, with spikes protruding from them like naval
mines, set upon him. Thousands of reported encounters and UFO
spotters followed. There are three airports and a gas-flaring
oil terminal within a 30-mile radius. Craig Malcolm took footage
of a ball of light dog-legging back and forth across a clear
sky. A plane-like object with no wings sent 'black reek belching
out the back of it as it soared off.' Bonnybridge's status as a
UFO capital prompted one councilor to call for it to be twinned
with Roswell and ambitious plans have been mooted to build a
multi-million-pound UFO theme park. 'There have also been a
substantial number of sightings in the Glasgow area.
VisitScotland, the tourist board that commissioned the latest
survey, sees it as a growth market. The Falkirk triangle has
already attracted hundreds of visitors. Thanks to Stephen Khan,
June 23, 2002
http://observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,742352,00.html

VERY FEW CROP CIRCLES REPORTED

Nancy Talbot reports that there are normally numerous crop
circles reported by this time of year. There has been a surprise
drop in the number so far this year. Five have been reported in
England, two in Holland and three in Germany.

ASTRONOMERS HAVE IDENTIFIED 100 KNOWN PLANETS

Gary G. Ford writes, in last weeks Filer's Files #25, you
discussed 13 new planets found in space. Isn't it curious that
scientists claim terrestrial planet sized moons in recently
discovered large planets are usually not considered suitable for
life? In our Solar System, some scientists imagine Europa or
even Ganymede and Callisto -- having life, but generally judge
them as too cold. While Europa currently appears to have a large
ice covered ocean, The Galileo Probe magnetometer data suggests
that large deposits of underground water apparently grace
otherwise icy Ganymede and Callisto, both of which actually have
much exposed land, in contrast to Europa, which is deeply ice
covered. Some of the newly found large planets may have moons
that could support life. In this case, moons in proximity to a
giant planet, warm and close to a star, provides nighttime
warming infrared illumination of large close-in planetary moons,
while nearly half the time any close-in moons will be protected
from direct exposure to the star's light and particle radiation,
when the moons are in the shadow of their primary. Moons close
in to a Large Planet apparently have a tendency to keep the same
side toward the planet, and the opposite side away from the
Primary Planet which they orbit. This effect will greatly
leverage the fraction of a 'day' in which the Primary Pointing
moon face will have to endure the blaze of a relatively close in
sun.

Therefore such moons can have a more constant temperature facing
their Primary, Major Planet, while the opposite -- or 'outside
facing' side cycles between extremes of exposure to the cold
dark of space and baking from the direct illumination in close
proximity of even a small, when close, star. One might expect
volatiles, to periodically condense on the 'far side' during
'night' and to be re-evaporated and move towards the more
shielded 'in-facing' side during day. Such an arrangement would
generate 'Weather' and may promote better retention of volatiles
than a terrestrial planet. I suggest that large moons of large
planets close in to small red/orange stars can be possibly
fertile grounds for life. What about intelligent life escaping
such a moon? The large planets Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and
Neptune in OUR Solar System all have multiple moons. Large moons
allow gravity assist or 'energy theft' by passing space probes.
Jupiter's System is the best example of this effect, where on
small fuel consumption's, the Galileo Space probe has been
enabled to lace its orbits close into and far out from the
Primary Planet Jupiter, while stealing and giving orbital energy
and momentum, to/from the Galilean moons. This has greatly
facilitated the Galileo Probes mission to the Jovian System, in
exploration of the Galilean Moons. Extra terrestrials could use
the multiple moons to enhance space travel and expeditions
between two planet-moon systems may be possible.

Furthermore, using the planets to gain orbital energy and
momentum might be possible to allow a 'moon dancing' and inner-
planet dancing strategy to greatly assist in reaching the outer
planets. 'Planet Dancing' between the 3 known large planets at
55 Cancri may even allow for escape of space ships into
interplanetary space. Long-lived robot or Reptilian-like
Hibernating Bio-Intelligences could mount an expedition from 55
Cancri to our Solar System, using Planet and Moon Dancing over
the centuries. The use of Solar Energy is feasible on Mars, in
addition to Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen from chemi-processing of
compressed atmosphere, and Water, Hydrogen and Oxygen is
available from melted ice and electrolyzed water. Mineral wealth
should also be fairly easy to exploit from Solar or CO+O2 {from
the breakup of Solar or Nuclear Powered breakup of CO2). Planet
and Earth 'dancing' should allow expeditions to Earth and our
Luna Moon! And of course who is to say that 55 Cancri is unique?
Multiple large planets, orbiting long-lived, smaller stars, some
'close in' to the central star, and with many large-moons around
the large planets, may even be a better configuration for
intelligent life to develop and eventually attempt
interplanetary travel! Thanks to Gary G. Ford, swimp@shaw.ca
http://www.swimp.org/

MUFON 2002 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM

On July, 5-7, 2002, the 33rd annual MUFON conference will be
held at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Rochester, New York. Come
hear the top speakers from the US, Canada, and England on UFOs
and abductions. The Platinum Package is priced at $150.00 per
person Please contact Jim Bouck nitesiter@yahoo.com or Bob Long
- alienchasr@aol.com or the MUFON Website.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO photographs available
and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
Bethune. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222
Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055.

THE UFO STORE -- Your purchases at the UFO Store will help pay
for UFO research. Go for the widest selection of UFO books, CDs,
and videos on the net at: http://www.filersfiles.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the complete files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue that the item appeared. These reports and
comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send
your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically
grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please
state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story
confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND
REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer











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   Jun > Jun 27

              Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Alexander

From: James Alexander <james-m-alexander@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:54:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:43:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post - Alexander


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:01:47 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:10:01 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Reasons Why Abductees Don't Post

 >Dearest Eleanor, List and EBK,

 >Let's take it even further. Let's let Errol run three lists, one
 >for the researcher, one for the abductee and one for the
 >skeptics. And, if we, the listers wish, perhaps we can let
 >everyone participate in everything, making Errol's job even
 >easier.

 >Course, it would be quite nice if we (as the beauty contest lady
 >contestant, a blond I perceive, said) 'could all be friends,'
 >then it wouldn't matter, eh?

 >Personally, this dood thinks the entire idea is as logical as
 >Pelican f*rts.

 >But that's just my take on it.


Hi Jim (& Everyone),

Errol told me 2 lists aint gonna happen. And frankly I don't
much like the idea of a skeptic list. It would quickly
degenerate into a skepti-kult debunker fan club reminiscent of
that "alt.usenet.kooks" newsgroup.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 27

                   Re: Von Daniken's Mystery Park - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:26:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:45:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Von Daniken's Mystery Park - Hatch


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:22:44 -0500 (CDT)
 >Subject: Von Daniken's Mystery Park

 >This note will really please certain UpDateans.

 >The website for Erik Von Daniken's Mystery Park has just been
 >updated. It includes details of the financing for the
 >"Disneyland-style" alien theme park, pics of its construction
 >and factsheets about various things like pyramids, Stonehenge,
 >space travel and SETI.

 >It's scheduled to open in 2003 at a cost of about 80 million CHF
 >(Francs).

 >Is that a lot of money?

 >www.mysterypark.ch


Hello Chris:

80 million Swiss francs would be something like 53.63 million US
Dollars. A large sum for sure!


Best

- Larry








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   Jun > Jun 27

                      Two New Mute Cases In Entre Rios

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:20:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 06:59:56 -0400
Subject: Two New Mute Cases In Entre Rios



SOURCE: El Diario (Paran=E1, Entre R=EDos)
DATE: 6-26-02

TWO NEW MUTILATION CASES IN ENTRE RIOS

These two new cases increase the death toll in Entre Rios to
sixteen. The breakdown of what is know so far about the
mutilated animals in the province is as follows: one in Lucas
Sud Primera (Dept. of Villaguay), two at Aldea Asuncion
(Gualeguay), one at Costa Grande and another at Las Cuevas
(Diamante), one at Pedro Vallejos (La Paz), one at Sola (Rosario
del Tala), two in the Third District (Gualeguay), one in
Hasenkamp, two at Santa Luisa and two in Maria Grande Segunda
(Dept. of Parana).

** Two New Cases in Nogoy=E1 **

Two new mutilated bovine cases were made known at this time,
having occured in the Dept. of Nogoy=E1. One of the animals was
found in Laurencena and the other at Seccion Urquiza.

Pablo Seeling, a veterinarian with the Police's Cattle Rustling
Brigade, manifested his surprise at the discovery, recalling
that the Laurencena case involved "a bull missing part of its
testicles and tongue, which had been extracted in a very special
way."

"What makes these characteristics special is the fact that one
must have a very special scalpel or something to make a cut as
clean as the one on that animal. I don't want to think about
aliens or anything, but I wonder how one could make such a
precise incision. I made an incision with my scalpel right next
to the existing one and it was completely different."

The professional noted that in any event, the animal "must have
been dead for almost five days, and its flesh looked like what
one would see at the butcher shop. That was something that
attracted our attention considerably."

Regarding what occurred in Seccion Urquiza, the Police reported
that "no explanation can be found for these events."

"Science asks us to keep our feet on the ground, and we must
therefore be cautions before any type of appreciation we may
make without having precise information," said Eduardo Boroni,
Dean of the School of Agronomy and Veterinarian Science of the
Universidad Nacional del Litoral (UNL) based in Esperanza, Santa
Fe.

This school is  providing "technical support" in the area to
meet the requirments, although as Boroni observed, there is no
relationship with the government of Entre Rios "on an official
level. All is being done on an extra-official level [...]"

"But there is no in-depth work that has been performed beyond
the mere external appreciation of the samples received. Imagine
that these remains are several days old. Under these conditions,
there isn't much we can say. We must determine first if it is
the same thing that people think they're seeing everywhere.
Today, we do not know," he said.

Boroni pointed out that "the logical thing would be to work with
much fresher animals.  We receive animals that have been dead
for over 15 days, and we also received samples that were
discarded for that very reason. " In any event, he highlighted
that the cases that are now causing a sensation among the public
throughout the country "are highly related to mysticism."

"In order to have a scientific opinion on the cause of death of
these animals, we must first have a conjecture on a given event,
a hypothesis. This is what is not happening. There is no clear
and definite hypothesis, and under these conditions, one does
not know what is being looked for. The uncertainty arises from
the manner in which cases are being presented, and because the
majority become known days after they have occured, making their
analysis difficult," he explained.


Cow mutilations have become a source of intrigue.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, IHU. Special Thanks to
Gloria Coluchi.









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   Jun > Jun 27

              Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey -

From: Jeanne Mackay <JeanneMackay@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:36:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:08:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey -


 >From: James Easton <ebay@jeaston.com>
 >To: Errol Bruce-Knapp <errol@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 06:34:37 +0100
 >Subject: Re: 'Scottish' UFOs - Exact Numbers From Survey

<snip>

 >Chris Gibson, fellow Scotsman, aircraft recognition expert, oil-
 >rig contractor and witness to the celebrated foremost
 >'unidentified north sea triangular-shaped airplane', has noted
 >Bonnybridge and vicinity might be more appropriately named, the
 >'Buckfast triangle' [do your own research on this...]

<snip>

Dear friends,

How kind of James to forward the above demeaning comment
regarding the type of alcohol allegedly consumed by the
inhabitants of Bonnybridge?

Having lived my whole live in Scotland and having studied the
subject of ufology for nearly 20 years I feel that I am as
qualified as most on this List to comment. Scotland does have an
extremely high percentage of sightings for the population, but
for me what makes these sightings stand out from the crowd is in
their quality.

As Bruce M once remarked long ago on this List (think it was
that good man) that we are no longer satisfied with the strange
lights way in the distance and want the cherry on the cake
instead. Scotland has cherries by the bucket load.

Personally, I have had two close encounters whereas the craft in
question were within 100 feet. Easily close enough for me to
pick up a stone and hit them, and I'm a girl, I don't throw very
far. I have heard similar stories from literally hundreds of
people over the years. What we Scots also possess in spades is
the ability to witness other worldly phenomenon without feeling
the need to jump up and down and wet our knickers. I feel it is
an inbred mechanism that allows us just to say "well there they
go - and how beautifully."

I wrote to NIDS during this past New Year offering FOC
incredible footage take during the past few years in Scotland.
None of this video tape has been presented elsewhere before. I
asked if I may send it to them. Guess what, no reply. Maybe
Scotland is just too obscure for them and they are not
interested in cherries!

Bottom line is that UFOs are here in Scotland, but don't expect
us to turn cartwheels trying to state our case when the blame
will fall on the 'Buckie'.


Kindest regards,

Jeanne Mackay
Scotland









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   Jun > Jun 27

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 26

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:27:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:11:16 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 26


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

       UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 26
June 25, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http:ufoinfo.com/roundup/


MUTILATION TOTAL EXCEEDS
100 IN ARGENTINA

       The wave of cattle mutilations which began in
Argentina's Buenos Aires province just over a month ago
spread to even more provinces last week, with well over
100 cases now being reported.
       "Two new animal mutilation cases shook the
communities of Rivera and Coronel Pringles."
       Coronel Pringles is located about 150 kilometers (90
miles) northeast of the city of Bahia Blanca in southern
Buenos Aires province.
       In Rivera, at a field "belonging to the Adolfo Alsina
district, residents had still not overcome their surprise
and uncertainty caused by the appearance of a cow found
mutilated at a farm, when word was received that a horse
had suffered similar injuries."  (See the following story
for more on the horse mutilations--J.T.)
       "'The animal (cow) was missing an eye, like the one
that turned up in Salliquelo" six weeks ago, "'and I was
startled by the cut that removed both its teeth and jaw,
which was a perfect cut,' added the cattle's owner."
       Veterinarian Jorge Robles "dismissed the possibility
that a wild animal could make these incisions."
       "'The bird or animal that attacks a carcass isn't
after the eye, the ear or the mammary glands.  They are
carnivorous and feed on flesh.  In this case, 80 percent
of what's missing is hide.  This is what fills me with
doubts,'" Robles said.
       "The veterinarian confirmed that the place where the
animal was found was far removed from trails or roads.
'The people who discovered the first cases noted that all
of the carcasses had their heads towards the east and
their tails towards the west.  Since it isn't easy to find
the cardinal points in a field, I took a compass with me
when I went to see this cow again.  To my surprise, the
head was pointing due east and the tail due west.  What
happened cannot be fit within the framework of medical
science,' he added."
       "Four dead animals were found in the town of Coronel
Pringles, two in Rivera, one in Coronel Dorrego and
another in Abramo, in La Pampa province" last week.
       "In Pringles, after the death of a 220-kilogram steer
became known, veterinarian Juan Murdrovcic described the
gruesome findings:"
       "'I was informed of four dead cows in a pasture near
the Las Praderas farm, property of Eduardo Fernandino,
located on the border with Laprada.  To reach their
location, it was necessary to employ a tractor, since it
is a marshy, boggy region.  The last 300 meters (1,000
feet) had to be traversed on foot.'"
       "'There is a hill after the marshland.  There, within
a 150-meter (500-foot) radius, we found the four dead
cows.  While there was little natural light, I was
startled by the fact that their eyes were fully outside of
their (ocular) cavities.  (The carcasses) were in an odd
pattern, on their legs, unlike others that are (usually
found) lying on their sides.'"
       "'When the cowhand lifted the cow's legs, there was a
perfect circle where the organ (an udder) was located.
Missing from the area were skin, glandular tissue, and
there was no sign of a knife mark or an incision or any
blood.  An almost perfect piece of (surgical) work,
geometrically well-executed,' commented the veterinarian."
       "Two more cattle mutilations were added to the four
reported earlier near Rivera, according to Jorge Robles's
statements to (the Argentinian newspaper) La Nueva
Provincia.  The case involves a middle-aged cow and a two-
to-three-month-old calf which had died days earlier but
which had been found with various incisions."
       "Robles stated that the calf had died over 15 days
ago (June 4, 2002--J.T.) and the cow a week ago
(Wednesday, June 12, 2002--J.T.).  The farmer and his
sons, due to the strange animal deaths reported and the
psychosis (terror) prevalent among the population,
verified the animals' condition and found that various
organs were missing."
       "Robles said that the field was located southeast of
Rivera, some 10 to 15 kilometers (6 to 9 miles) from the
town and was the property of Manuel Candanedo."
       "A dead and mutilated cow was (also) found in the
Pampan community of Abramo.  The animal was a pregnant
black cow, eight years old--was missing an eye, its
tongue, its reproductive apparatus, udders and jaw.  The
case was reported by Agustin Alvarez to the Bernasconi
Sheriff's Office on Monday (June 17, 2002), although the
event is believed to have occurred between Friday night
(June 14) and Saturday (June 15, 2002)."
       "As the Bernasconi Sheriff's Office reported, the
incisions were 'cauterized' and the cow gives off no odor
and is soft, as though recently deceased.  The location
where the animal was found, near a mill, has yielded no
clues whatsoever."
       "Dead cows, mutilated and without a trace of blood,
have created a strange wave of uncertainty among
scientists, fear among the general population and
conjectures about extraterrestrial activity."
       "The foreman of" a corporate farm "near the town of
Adela, some 600 kilometers (360 miles) southwest of Buenos
Aires," the national capital, "found 11 dead cows and
bulls whose tongues, eyes, mammary glands and genitalia
had been removed.  The find, which was added to the 9 dead
and mutilated animals in nearby communities, spread fear
among the rural population of the region, which is one of
the richest cattle production areas" in Argentina.
       "The bovine corpses were scattered in a radius of 300
meters (1,000 feet), arranged in a circle, which they
(observers) could see from above.  The incisions were made
with an electronic scalpel--an instrument which cauterizes
as it cuts.  No trace of bleeding was found."
       In Santa Fe province, northwest of Buenos Aires, "A
mutilated cow was found in the Santa Fe community of
Moises Ville, 170 kilometers (102 miles) from the
provincial seat.  The incisions are similar to those
reported in cases in Buenos Aires, Rio Negro and La Pampa
provinces."
       "The animal, a crossbreed known as Red Overo, was
found missing an ear and eye, a tongue, genitalia and the
muscular mass of its jawbone, according to spokespersons
for the Renata Kulemeyer farm in whose pasture field the
mutilation occurred.  As in earlier cases, the cuts were
performed with surgical accuracy, without any traces of
blood on the animal's hide nor any tracks in the
vicinity."
       "Reports were received from the first case involving
a dead cow with strange incisions in the town of Nicolas
Levalle in southern Buenos Aires province."  Local
cattlemen claim that "the cow was 'somewhat dizzy.'  'It
stood still and stopped walking.  While we didn't stop to
look, as we led the rest of the herd to the watering hole,
there's no doubt something happened,' said Enrique
Kampmeier, the field's owner, whose farm is located 65
kilometers (40 miles) west of Bahia Blanca in the
Villarino district. 'The cow broke away from the herd and,
when it was found an hour later, it was missing several
organs.'"
       "Oscar Bellido, the municipal delegate of Goyena, 140
kilometers (84 miles) north of Bahia Blanca, confirmed the
discovery of a cow in a pasture field belonging to the
Murguia family.  The animal was missing such organs as the
tongue and part of its throat.  Its extremities were
hard."
       "In Chaco, a dead cow presenting signs of anal and
ocular mutilation was found in a field close to General
San Martin, some 120 kilometers (72 miles) north of the
capital.  The story was confirmed by the chief of Region 5
Chaco Police Raul Maldonado, who witnessed the phenomenon
alongside a veterianarian on the farm."
       "According to Maldonado, the farm's foreman found the
animal on Sunday (June 16, 2002) but waited for the
arrival of the farm's owner, Alfredo Pegoraro, to inform
the authorities."
       "Both men went to see the cow and were able to see
that, in spite of the days elapsed since its death, the
natural decay process had not occurred."
       "In Bolivar, a livestock producer reported that one
of his animals had been mutilated and 'different parts of
its anatomy are missing...the bovine is missing both ears,
the tongue, a piece of hide from its flank and flesh from
its jawbone."  (See the following Argentinian newspapers:
La Nueva Provincia of Bahia Blanca for June 16, 2002,
"Cattle mutilations reach 50 throughout the region" and
for June 19, 2002, "The subject ceases to be trivial;"
Diario Rio Negro for June 20, 2002, "Mystery death toll
rises to 84" and for June 22, 2002, "SENASA unable to find
explanation for mutilations;" La Capital of Santa Fe for
June 21, 2002, "Dead cow found in Moises Ville;" and El
Tribuno of Salta for June 20, 2002, "Fear of cattle
mutilations grows."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales,
Gloria Coluchi, Mercedes Cases, Alicia Rossi y Proyecto
Catent para esos articulos de diario.)


HORSE MUTILATIONS BEGIN
IN ARGENTINA

       Argentina's mutilation scare took a sinister new
twist last week as the first reports of horses being
mutilated began to trickle in.
       "The mutilation in Rivera is the first one to involve
a horse."
       "'The horse died of old age some 20 days ago (May 26,
2002), right near the barn.  For this reason I decided to
rope it by the legs and drag it to a secluded area.  I
went by many times in recent days but never past the
carcass, and when I saw what had happened, I was
startled,' related the horse's owner, who declined to
identify himself."
       "He added that the horse was missing its tongue,
despite the fact that its jaw was clenched shut.  'It's
weird, because when an animal dies, it stiffens so much
that it's hard to open its mouth.'"
       "The cattleman also stated that the horse was missing
its anus and genitalia, as well as skin from the inner
section of the genital organ.  'Also its tail, which had
been clipped perfectly down to the hair but with the
abdominal wall showing,' he added."
       "The rural location where the mutilated horse was
discovered was west of Rivera, some 12 kilometers (8
miles) away from the town."
       "The horse was inspected by veterinarian Jorge
Robles, who also analyzed the dead cows in Areno.  'The
incisions are the same,'" the veterinarian said, "'The
horse is missing its tongue, an eye, an ear and its
genitalia."
       Dead and mutilated horses were found near Rio
Colorado on Wednesday, June 19, 2002.
       "With regard to the horse found near Rio Colorado, it
was reported that it was missing an ear, its left eye, its
tongue, digestive tract and anus.  The discovery took
place on the farm of Delfor Segura, some 40 kilometers (25
miles) from Rio Colorado heading towards Conesa."
       "The animal, a black riding horse, was 600 meters
(2,000 feet) away from the farmhouse and, as in earlier
cases, did not give off any odor and did not attract
predators.  Also strange is that the spot where the
discovery took place is hard to reach and 5 kilometers (3
miles) off the road.  No tracks or traces were found in
the vicinity."
       "The Catriel case was rather similar.  Veterinarians
and ranchers are still stupefied, since they cannot find
an explanation for this event.  The animal lacked
testicles, foreskin, anus and part of the hide on its
belly, which was cut in a similar pattern."
       "Veterinarian Jose Torres, who was on site and
examined the horse, stated that 'what drew my attention
were the testicular incisions, since there wasn't a drop
of blood to be found, and veins the size of a pencil run
through this part of the body.'  He also estimated that
'the incisions were made with a very sharp knife or
scalpel by a surgeon having considerable knowledge and
skill.  Contrary to other cases, these incisions were not
cauterized.'"  (See the Argentinian newspapers La Nueva
Provincia for June 16, 2002, "New mutilations in Rivera
and Pringles," and Diario Rio Negro for June 20, 2002,
"Two horses found mutilated yesterday in Catriel and Rio
Colorado."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria
Coluchi para esos articulos de diario.)


UFOs PROWL THE NIGHT SKIES
OVER ARGENTINA

       Argentina's wave of animal mutilations has been
accompanied by a sudden sharp upsurge in the number of UFO
sightings.  Mystery objects and lights have been seen at
mutilation sites such as Catriel and General San Martin.
       "A group of police officers claimed to have witnessed
an unidentified flying object in the community of 25 de
Mayo," in Argentina's La Pampa province, "and are looking
into the possibility that the episode may have something
to do with the dozens of mutilated animals found in the
provinces of La Pampa, Rio Negro and Buenos Aires."
       On Thursday, June 20, 2002, "an unidentified flying
object was seen over the tourist complex known as Las
Lenas by dozens of natives, tourists and operators of the
Mendoza resort.  The object was a short distance away, as
multiple eyewitness reports corroborated."
       "Visual contact with the strange object occurred 8
p.m. and 8:30 p.m. yesterday (Thursday) over Cerro Los
Fosiles (hill), a natural graveyard of extinct marine
creatures which form part of the exclusive Las Lenas
resort."
(Editor's Comment: Sounds like geologists' heaven!)
       "'Several people claim having seen a strange luminous
effect.  This is the overall remark circulating in Las
Lenas,' explained one of the tourist complex workers,
requesting anonymity.  'The phenomenon occurred near part
of the hill known as La Antenna to the locals, since the
internal radio communications for the complex are located
there.'"
       "'It's a luminous phenomenon, not an object.  It's a
light that runs down the sides (of the Cerro Los Fosiles--
J.T.),' explained another worker at the Mendoza resort."
       "One of the witnesses of the curious incident was a
machinery operator, who in the early hours of the evening
was using one of the snow rollers that press the ski trail
for skiers.  The man was carrying out his duties near the
base of the chair lift of the El Vulcano Trail when he
noticed to his amazement an 'intense multicolored light'
moving about 600 meters (2,000 feet) away, causing
vehicular (engine) trouble aboard the snow roller."
(Editor's Note: Right now it's the middle of winter in
Argentina and other countries of the southern hemisphere,
so there is plenty of snow in the Andes.)
       "Frightened and amazed, the machinist got down from
his vehicle and ran towards the Las Lenas lodge, where he
informed his superiors of the phenomenon, which he did not
hesitate to qualify as a UFO."
       "Over the next several hours, the ski resort"
received several reports "from motorists driving along
adjacent roads" of the phenomenon at Cerro Los Fosiles.
       "'Last Monday (June 17, 2002), in the vicinity of La
Himalaya, going towards Azopardo, resident Ricardo
Rodriguez saw a flying saucer over a nearby hill, bearing
a strong white light and with a red bottom.  His brother
was able to see something similar in another field on
Tuesday night (June 18, 2002): he was driving and he saw
the UFO in a different direction, but in the same region,'
added (Oscar) Bellido, (municipal delegate for Goyena)."
       "A UFO was seen Wednesday night (June 19, 2002) in
the vicinity of Puente Dique over the Rio Colorado (river)
in Catriel, about 25 kilometers (15 miles) from the
province of Neuquen.  The alleged UFO was seen by truckers
and people working at the Provincial Traffic Control
(checkpoint--J.T.) on the La Pampa/Rio Negro highway."
       "Most witnesses concur that the UFO was seen around 9
p.m. and was over the area of Penas Blancas, giving off a
powerful red light that increased and diminished in
intensity."
       "Jorge Hernandez, an operator in Puente Dique, stated
that 'the light was suspended (hovered) for more or less
20 minutes and was lost from sight....the light became
very strong and then appeared to dim.  It moved in bursts
and then remained immobile...it couldn't be a plane or
helicopter because of the way it remained still.  I wasn't
the only witness--many other folks around here have seen
it.  Some say the lights are related to the dead animals,'
he concluded."
       "In General San Martin and other localities in the
province of La Pampa, several residents reported having
seen 'strange lights' in recent days.  Sheriff Gustavo
Martinez," of the Bernasconi Sheriff's Office, "says he
ascertained the existence of a strange light in the sky
after having been alerted by neighbors.  'It changed color
and size consistently, sometimes reddish and then blue.
It was significantly larger than a star, more like the
size of a tennis ball,' stressed the police official."
(See the Argentinian newspapers El Diario de Parana for
June 21, 2002, "UFO seen over tourist complex" and Diario
Rio Negro for June 22, 2002, "Strange lights reported in
La Pampa."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria
Coluchi para esos articulos de diario.)


BULL REPORTED MUTILATED
IN WESTERN CANADA

       A prize bull was discovered mutilated in a field in
St. Paul, Alberta province, Canada (population 4,861) last
week.  St. Paul is about 50 miles (80 kilometers) east-
northeast of Edmonton.
       According to researcher Fernand Belzil, he visited
the scene and discovered "what I call an authentic
mutilation, as well as one of the most interesting cases
in all six years I've been investigating."
       "The bull was lying in a small clump of willow trees
facing west.  The tongue was removed, as well as the left
eye and left ear."  Genitalia were also removed.
"On the stomach was a very neat laser incision, oval in
shape, measuring 14 inches by 9 inches (35 by 22
centimeters--J.T.).  The skin was never found, and the
flesh had not been touched.  The rectum had also been
removed with the same precision."
       "What is very interesting about this mutilation is
that the blood test result indicated that the blood was
composed of pure hemoglobin.  Only three such cases have
been confirmed in North America--two were in the United
States.  The scientist told me that in order to change the
blood to hemoglobin, one needs very sophisticated
equipment, and to do this in a field is like doing brain
surgery in the kitchen using kitchen utensils."  (Many
thanks to Louise A. Lowry for this report.)


SPHERICAL UFOs SEEN OVER
WEST VANCOUVER, B.C.

       On Sunday, June 2, 2002, at 9:45 a.m., Rifet
Bahtijaragic spotted a UFO over West Vancouver in Canada's
British Columbia province.
       "The UFO came up from the south--Vancouver Island,"
Rifet reported, "It was a sunny day with no clouds.  There
was one at first in the shape of a ball, colored like a
cloud, about two kilometers (1.2 miles) away from me
around 600 to 700 meters (2,000 to 2,330 feet) over the
(Pacific) ocean.  It flew horizontally at the speed of a
small jet."
       "Approximately 30 seconds later, four same-shaped
(spherical) objects approached from the same direction
(south) in the shape of a rhombus with one trailing
behind.  The first UFO disappeared while I was watching
the other four.  They flew still at the speed of a jet
until they reached the sky over Bowen Island (stationed
there are big TV antennas--R.B.).  They then changed their
flight from horizontal to vertical, increased speed and
suddenly came to a stop, hovering at 15,000 to 20,000
meters (50,000 to 66,000 feet).  They looked like four
stars in the sky in the shape of a rhombus.  They stayed
there for about five minutes and suddenly disappeared."
(Email Form Report)


UFO FOLLOWS TWO FEMALE
MOTORISTS IN AUSTRALIA

       On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, Emilie P. and a woman
companion were driving from Leongatha to Mirboo North in
Australia's state of Victoria when they encountered a UFO.
       "My friend and I were travelling to our work," Emilie
reported, "That Wednesday we sighted something in the sky,
but I put it off as a jet.  It appeared long and silver-
looking.  I didn't give it much thought."
       One week later, however, on Wednesday, June 19, 2002,
the silver object returned.  "The following week, the same
day, and even the same time, we saw the same thing.  I
took some interest in it.  It seemed to be getting closer.
As it got closer, it appeared to be at a 45-degree angle
and of a silver colour."
       "While my friend continued driving, I was watching
this object.  It was getting closer and moving around.  It
was weird.  It was like it was moving around without me
noticing until I tried to look for it again.  The next
thing, it came down to our (car's) right-hand side and
appeared to be hovering above some farmland.  I can't say
exactly how far it was from us.  I would say approximately
200 meters (660 feet).  The next thing, it was gone.  Then
I looked up and it was in front of us again.  It seemed to
get closer and (then) further away from us, and was moving
around" before it vanished over the horizon.
       Leongatha, Vic. is located about 200 kilometers (120
miles) southeast of Melbourne.  (Email Form Report)


FOUR SAUCERS HOVER OVER
AZERBAIJAN'S CAPITAL

       On Thursday, June 20, 2002, at precisely 10 a.m.,
four silvery-white saucers appeared in the sky above Baku,
the capital of Azerbaijan, a small Asian nation on the
shores of the Caspian Sea.
       Hundreds of people in Baku "saw the strange flying
objects hovering over the city.  They first appeared at 10
in the morning.  The objects" took up position "over the
underground station and were seen by street vendors, one
of whom telephoned" the local newspaper Al-Azerbaijani.
"But by the time our correspondents arrived at the
station, the objects were gone."
       One street vendor who was interviewed told the
reporters: "'It was a silver white object looking indeed
like a saucer.  At first there was one of them.  Then
there were four.  The UFOs remained in the sky for five
hours.  They stayed motionless in the air."
      Around 3 p.m., the saucers "began to move slowly
away," heading east over the Caspian Sea.  (See the
newspaper Al-Azerbaijani for June 21, 2002.  Also the
American Freedom News shortwave 8 p.m. radio broadcast for
June 21, 2002.  Many thanks to Rick Wiles for this news
story.)


STRANGE LIGHT CIRCLES
REPORTED IN WEST SUSSEX

       "A woman from Hove in West Sussex, UK claimed to be
able to see strange circles of light on her garden fence."
       "Lisa Stewart says she can see lights of perfect
circles which have a pronounced X at their centre."
       "The 36-year-old first saw the beams six years ago
and took some photographs but thought little about them."
       "The Evening News reports Lisa's children have also
seen the lights."
       "Similar light shapes have also been seen in Norway,
Germany, Slovenia, Canada and the USA."
(Editor's Note:  To say nothing of Chile and Brazil.  Here
in the USA, "light circles" on bedroom walls have preceded
appearances by aliens.  This has caused speculation that
the lights might be some kind of alien transporter, and
that the "dazzle field" abductees claim to have passed
through is a kind of space warp, allowing direct access to
the saucer.)
       "The paper says they have also been spotted on the
walls of the Jarvis Hotel in Guildford, Surrey, UK."
(Editor's Comment:  So the next time the pub hostess says,
"Time, gentlemen, please!" try not to exit through the
light circle.)
       "Lisa said, 'I think they are a strange phenomenon,
on a par with crop circles.  I know other people have seen
them, but I think you have to be receptive to them.  Maybe
I've seen them because I've been looking for them.'"  (See
Ananova for June 19, 2002.  Many thanks to Loren Coleman
for this news story.)


  From the UFO Files...

1908: MYSTERY BOOMS HEARD
            IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

       In June 1908, residents of the Exmouth Gulf region of
Western Australia, about 620 kilometers (372 miles) north
of Perth, were puzzled by a series of mysterious "loud
explosions," which reminded a handful of the phenomenon of
the phantom "Barisal guns" in India.
       In Nature for June 4, 1908, J. Burton Cleland
reported, "Under the title of 'Barisal Guns of Western
Australia,' you published a note from me describing a
peculiar, loud detonation heard by my companions and
myself while on the Strelley River, in the north-west of
Australia."
       In the same periodical, editor W.E. Cooke reported,
"I have just received the following note from Mr. H.L.
Richardson, Hillspring Station, 100 miles (160 kilometers)
northeast of Carnavon (W.A.) on our west coast--'A
peculiar incident happened here last evening (June 26,
1908) about an hour after sunset.  In a southeasterly
direction from here three reports (explosions--J.T.) took
place high up in the air, and then a rushing noise like
steam escaping, lasting for a few seconds, and gradually
dying away.  Mr. Loeffler, one of the owners of the
(Hillspring) station, was standing outside with me at the
time.  It was a beautifully clear evening, and there was
nothing visible at all in that direction.  The reports
sounded like explosions of some combustible to which there
was no resistance."
       The source of the "detonations" was never found.
(See Handbook of Unusual Natural Phenomena, compiled by
William R. Corliss, the Sourcebook Project, Glen Arm,
Maryland, USA, 1977, pages 378 and 379.  Also Nature
78:390 for 1908, "Barisal Guns in Western Australia" and
81:127 for 1909, "Barisal Guns in Australia."


       Well, that's it for this week.  Even as your editor
writes these words, animal mutilation reports continue to
pour in from Argentina.  It's now the biggest wave of
mutilations since the USA in 1975.  We'll have complete
coverage of this so-far-suppressed news event next week in
"the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you all in
seven days!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and
UFO Sightings Italia.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-






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   Jun > Jun 27

                             Re: Blimps - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:12:50 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:16:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimps - Ledger


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:51:41 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:42:28 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Blimps

 >>Take the UFO question out of the equation and there's still some
 >>answers missing. If indeed people were injured, one would think
 >>that someone would have had to answer for it. Now I know these
 >>were different times and there was a war on, but where's the
 >>wrap-up report?

 >Isn't it interesting that taking the UFO out of the equation
 >really gives those "missing answers" a quality they wouldn't
 >have had otherwise? Enemy attack was not taking place, clearly,
 >but the guns ripped up the skys, regardless! Panic is panic...
 >ok, ok, ok! But after some frenzied firing at 'nothing', some
 >smart PFC with a little college is going to ask the Sarge what
 >the hell he's shooting at. Taking the UFO out of the question
 >somehow firmly thrusts the UFO back into the equation. Was that
 >too abtruse?

<snip>

Hi Alfred,

I shold have mentioned the resounding thud heard during the
suspension of Air Regulations during a present day UFO report
made by pilots.

First case - no UFO. A close encounter of one airliner by
another during same direction altitude through Oceanic control
at 29,000 feet results in reems of paperwork and possible
reprimand for some Captain. The distance - 123 nautical miles
where it should have been 125 nautical miles of separation.
Further action recommended - YES.

New case - days apart. Controlled airspace less than 25 miles
from Toronto Center. Opposite traffic same altitude less 1,000
feet, bright white ball type object passes underleft wing of
aircraft. Pilot reports. He's asked by ATC, what type of
aircraft was it? Response - It wasn't an aircraft. Further
action recommended - No. Just more cricket noises.

As you said Alfred take the UFO out of it and there are
regulations that have to be followed. It all falls apart once
the little suckers show up.

Best,

Don Ledger








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                          Secrecy News -- 06/26/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:11:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:18:46 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/26/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 57
June 26, 2002


**      MISSILE DEFENSE SECRECY DISPUTED
**      US-AUSTRALIA AGREE ON CLASSIFIED INFO
**      FBI LEAK PROBE STIRS DEBATE


MISSILE DEFENSE SECRECY DISPUTED

The news that previously unclassified information about tests of
emerging missile defense technologies will be classified in the
future was met with skepticism yesterday during the Senate
debate over the Defense Authorization Act for 2003.

"If the tests are rigorous and our anti-missile system is
meeting our expectations, would it not be to our advantage to
let our adversaries know how effective this system will be?"
asked Sen. Robert Byrd.

"But perhaps this national missile defense system is not
progressing as rapidly as hoped. Then would it not be to our
advantage to encourage constructive criticism in order to
improve the system?" Sen Byrd continued.

"In either case, I cannot see how these secrecy edicts will
promote the development of a missile defense system that
actually works," he said. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/s062502.html

The new secrecy policy was defended yesterday by Gen. Ronald
Kadish, Director of the Missile Defense Agency, who declared
that "we will not give our adversaries a free ride as we develop
the system."  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/06/dod062502.html


US-AUSTRALIA AGREE ON CLASSIFIED INFO

The US and Australia on June 25 signed a new agreement governing
the handling and exchange of classified information.

"As the closest of allies, it is appropriate that Australia and
the United States continue to maintain arrangements that allow
the unhindered exchange of classified information," according to
a statement from the Australian foreign minister.  See:

http://www.foreignminister.gov.au/releases/2002/fa093_02.html


FBI LEAK PROBE STIRS DEBATE

"The decision by the leaders of the House and Senate
intelligence panels to ask the Justice Department to investigate
whether someone on Capitol Hill leaked classified material
bypassed the rules of both chambers and raises thorny
constitutional questions about the oversight checks between the
two branches of government, experts said last week."

See "Justice Leak Probe Gets Under Way," by Damon Chappie in the
June 24 issue of Roll Call:

http://www.rollcall.com/pages/news/00/2002/06/news0624c.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:26:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:20:39 -0400
Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting -  Ledger


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:47:55 -0300

 >Stan Friedman

Hi Stan,

And most importantly there were only 5 prototypes, each one-
third scale and slow. Additionally, when you are testing
unstable designs you don't let them go flying over the
treacherous mountainous areas of the Pacific northwest. Best,

Don








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                         Re: Fortean Times? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:59:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:22:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Fortean Times? - Hatch


 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:19:17 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Fortean Times?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:48:25 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Fortean Times?

 >>Hello Chris:

 >>It sounds like they let their domain name registry expire,
 >>or forgot to pay their host. I hope some speculator doesn't
 >>find out if its the first thing, but that might have
 >>happened already.

 >Hope I'm wrong but I think the domain was registered by the
 >hosting company and not by Fortean Times. Some hosting companies
 >seem to register in their own name when they do it for you :(


Hello John:

I was about to say that I cannot imagine anyone being dumb
enough to pay for domain registry, but in somebody else's name,
some faceless company.

Maybe I better my big trap shut instead.



Best wishes

- Larry








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                            'UFOs? I've seen 180'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:50:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:50:39 -0400
Subject: 'UFOs? I've seen 180'


Source: BBCi

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2065000/2065037.stm

Thursday, 27 June, 2002, 13:13 GMT 14:13 UK

'UFOs? I've seen 180'

Forget Roswell. If you want to spot UFOs, the "Falkirk triangle"
is said to be your best bet. Here Scottish farm worker Craig
Malcolm tells of his years scanning the skies for unidentified
flying objects.

My nephew, who is four, loves watching the skies. We did the ET
ride at Universal Studios and the wee man thought it was
brilliant. Now he thinks ET is going to come and see him.

I saw my first UFO in 1991 when I was 19. My big brother came
into the house one night pure white - we thought he'd been in a
car crash. He said, 'something's just chased me' - yeah, right.

We went outside and this thing was above our house. The only way
I can describe it is a figure of eight rotating through the sky.

There was no sound; just pulsating lights coming off it. We
videoed it, and when we played it back, we noticed smaller
objects coming off it and flying off in opposite directions.

 From there, it just snowballed. I've seen about 180 now, and
have got 13 hours of footage of strange phenomena flying about
in the sky above my house. I've also filmed planes and
helicopters just to compare them.

Roswell UFO museum

Roswell has attracted alien-seekers for decades
I sent this footage to SETI i in the US for analysis. It came back
that 95% was UFOs and 5% was aircraft.

I'd been a bit of a sceptic before I saw what I saw; I'm a 100%
believer now.

This stuff about Bonnybridge being the Costa del Sol for aliens,
I think they're having a laugh. But if it creates a bit of
interest and gets people up here, that's a good thing because
tourism has died a death what with foot-and-mouth.

Conspiracy theory

I've had a few hair-raising experiences. Something chased me
while I was in the car with my dad.

We'd seen something hovering and had got out to have a look when
two balls came out as if to get us. At that point I jumped back
in the car - I was all for leaving my dad on the side of the
road, I was that terrified.

As we drove off, we noticed a red BMW sitting in a lay-by so
stopped to ask if they'd seen it. These two guys said that they
hadn't seen anything and that they didn't want to talk to us.
Then they just drove off.

The next day, the police came to my work - I'd been in a company
vehicle the night before - and asked why I'd been on that road.
By the end of the week, I'd lost my job.

Bonnybridge

I think there might be some kind of base in the area. There's a
hell of a lot of activity, with military helicopters and such
like flying about.

I know it's typical to blame the government, but I worked for
the Ministry of Defence a while back and had my eyes opened by
that job. I drove senior staff to and from military
establishments all over the place - there's a lot more out there
than people like to believe.

'Level-headed guy'

People who haven't seen things tend to be total sceptics and
call me a crackpot. But I'm a pretty level-headed sort of guy
and I don't drink or take drugs.

ET

I know what I've seen, what my family's seen. These things are
totally bizarre. They do neck-breaking manoeuvres. They
disappear and reappear in different places. We've seen discs,
triangles, tubes, spheres, all different lights and colours.

We all believe there's something strange, whether it be
government or UFO. I reckon we'll never really find out what's
out there.








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             Re-post - CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:58:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:58:48 -0400
Subject: Re-post - CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up


This was orginally posted August 21, 1999 and was removed by
an overzealous editor when the Archive lived at UFOmind.com

The source URL below is the current one at space.com

Note that UFOs now exist in the 'Science Fiction' folder at
space.com - so much for honesty in Space Sciences - an
apparently political move by more recent management.

ebk

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:39:52 -0400
To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Subject: UFO UpDate: CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up


Source: Space.com

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cia_report_818.html


CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up

by

Robert Scott Martin
Staff Writer
posted: 05:14 pm ET
18 August 1999

Central Intelligence Agency http://www.cia.gov/

CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90

http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclas/ufo.html


Not only has the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency admitted its
role in trying to "correct" public opinion about UFOs over the
last half century, it now believes the policy caused "major
problems" in dealing with the public.

In an internal report entitled "CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs,
1947-90," agency historian Gerald K. Haines portrayed the CIA as
consistently and deliberately working to suppress reports of
unidentified aerial phenomena since modern UFO sightings began
with the Kenneth Arnold case of 1947.

Still, even in a paper filled with covert attempts on the part
of both the CIA and the Air Force to "persuade the public that
UFOs were not extraordinary," Haines himself continued the
suppressive policy, perhaps unconsciously, by writing that the
CIA "paid only limited and peripheral attention to the
phenomena" since the early 1950s.

This tension in the report, written at the request of CIA
Director R. James Woolsey in 1997, is a telling reflection of
the government agency's troubled broader relationship with UFO
sightings and literature. Haines' history is studded with
depictions of the CIA not only repressing UFO reports and
reviewing recommendations that agents monitor UFO clubs for
subversive activities, but also trying to hide its own interest
in the matter.

Indeed, the struggle to "carefully restrict" and "forbid" any
public awareness of CIA involvement in UFO investigations
eclipses the actual investigations as the major thrust of the
agency's UFO efforts. Even though the agency had accepted the
Air Force's conclusion that there was only "a remote
possibility" that UFOs were interplanetary aircraft as early as
1952, investigations of the "massive buildup of sightings" went
on, just in case.

Concealment of CIA interest

However, after 1953, when negative findings from a civilian
panel motivated the CIA to "put the entire issue of UFOs on the
back burner" entirely, Haines said the agency became almost
exclusively concerned with covering up its own involvement in
the world of unidentified flying objects.

This aggressive policy of public non-involvement was important
to the CIA for many reasons. First, a number of agency officials
and study groups over the years urged the CIA to "conceal its
interest" because such attention would seem to officially
sanction to the existence of UFOs. Although the agency itself,
like the Air Force, believed the chance of flying saucers posing
a direct threat was minimal, the fear that even unfounded public
belief in the phenomenon, if encouraged by government interest,
could be enough to "touch off mass hysteria and panic."

Particularly in the 1950s, the Cold War heightened this somewhat
obsessive concern with hiding any evidence of the CIA's
involvement, said Haines. Although the agency's UFO study group
did not see any security threat emerging directly out of flying
saucers themselves, even if they actually existed, the CIA was
deeply worried by the possibility that Soviet agents could use
UFOs as "a possible psychological warfare tool" or cloak a more
Earthly attack with fake UFO reports.

Tantalizingly, Haines also noted that at least one CIA Director,
Walter Bedell Smith, "wanted to know what use could be made of
the UFO phenomenon in connection with US psychological warfare
efforts." The report does not mention whether the agency
followed up on this opportunity to manipulate UFO reports in a
more sophisticated manner for its own purposes.

As the 1950s wore on, the CIA became even less interested in
UFOs in themselves and more concerned with covering up its own
early involvement with the phenomenon. In 1955, only the
possibility that the Soviets would eventually develop a flying
saucer of their own kept the investigations from ending
completely.

Meanwhile, ironically, the CIA had built its own "unidentified
flying object," the U-2 surveillance aircraft, and sightings of
these planes needed to be kept out of the media. According to
Haines, Air Force investigators were "careful not to reveal the
true cause" of U-2 sightings. However, having no other means of
explaining the encounters, it is likely the field agents were
forced either to lie or retreat into a suspicious silence.

The return of the repressed

Haines argues that this suspicious silence was not a good
strategy for the agency, but the established need for secrecy
left the CIA with little choice while fervor over the
government's role in "covering up" UFO information grew. Even
though the agency itself "had a declining interest in UFO cases"
by the late 1950s, it was still spending considerable resources
looking out for "the more sensational UFO reports and flaps" in
order to suppress them.

Ultimately, this policy backfired by highlighting the CIA's role
in investigation -- or the ominous cover-up thereof -- only to
"add fuel to the growing mystery surrounding UFOs." UFO
researchers blamed the agency for starting the UFO flap of the
1950s for psychological warfare purposes, and the idea proved so
persuasive that even CIA Director Stansfield Turner asked his
staff whether the agency was "in UFOs" after reading a 1979 New
York Times article.

At the end, Haines concluded, the tactics of silence and
repression were a failure. "The UFO issue probably will not go
away soon, no matter what the agency does or says. The belief
that we are not alone in the universe is too emotionally
appealing and the distrust of our government is too pervasive to
make the issue amenable to traditional scientific studies of
rational explanation and evidence."

Indeed, much of that "distrust" was the CIA's own doing, and the
benefits appear to have been limited. Despite the agency's best
efforts to keep UFO reports out of the media, according to
Haines, "an extraordinary 95 percent of all Americans have at
least heard or read something about UFOs, and 57 percent believe
they are real."







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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 357

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@libero.it>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:25:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:05:54 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 357


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 357 -  7 JUNE 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- UPIAR Book Service On-Line
- 15 June: Inauguration Of The New Headquarters


             UPIAR Book Service On-Line

CISU Book Service has announced new arrivals which the
Cooperative UPIAR is offering not only to C.I.S.U. members, but
to all UFO buffs.

About ten or so new texts (some very recently issued or
difficult to find in bookstores) have succeeded at rounding out
the store at the Internet site www.upiar.com, which offers the
possibility of on-line purchases via credit card.

Also created is a new section named Nonsoloufo (=93Not Just
UFOs=94), which includes some books about arguments that are not
strictly UFO-related (archaeology, cryptozoology, astronautics,
contemporary legends and other mysteries).

[Collaboration by Maurizio Verga.]


15 June: Inauguration Of The New Headquarters

As announced, Saturday 15 June will mark the inauguration date
of the new headquarters at Turin of the Italian Center for UFO
Studies, which houses the national secretaryship and the central
archives of the association, in a wide and conveniently
accessible locale along the southwest outskirts of Turin.

To mark the occasion, the headquarters will be open for the
entire day  from 10 am to 11 pm  with a luncheon and a social
supper, as well as afternoon refreshments. Members of the
C.I.S.U.=92s northwest members have already received a personal
invitation. Others who are interested in participating may
contact their local Center representatives by telephone or e-
mail at the already-known addresses.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino.]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Gian Paolo Grassino, Roberto Labanti, Gildo Person=E8,
Nico Sgarlato and Maurizio Verga.



- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   Jun > Jun 27

                            Re: Mantell - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:44:58 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:09:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Ledger


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:53:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:41:55 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0300
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Mantell [was: Re: Request For Investigative ...]

<snip>

 >Was it in Edward J. Ruppelt's excellent 1956 UFO book 'The
 >Report on Unidentified Flying Objects'? After consulting with
 >Allen J. Hynek, Ruppelt was convinced the Air Force's
 >explanation that Mantell's UFO was Venus is wrong. After further
 >investigation Ruppelt seems to feel that what Mantell had seen
 >may have been a 100 foot diameter skyhook balloon. What I still
 >find puzzling, is although Smith was aware of what Ruppelt wrote
 >about the Mantell UFO incident in his book, his claim that the
 >debris from the aircraft "just fell apart and was scattered over
 >quite an area" and that "Mantell's body gave every indication of
 >having been subjected to considerable heat" doesn't seem to
 >agree with Ruppelt's account (which I briefly quote below from
 >page 57).

 >"...I had always heard a lot of wild speculation about the
 >condition of Mantell's crashed F-51, so I wired for a copy of
 >the accident report. It arrived several days after my visit with
 >Dr. Hynek. The report said that the F-51 had lost a wing due to
 >excessive speed in a dive after Mantell had "blacked out" due to
 >the lack of oxygen. Mantell's body was not burned, not
 >disintegrated, and was not full of holes..."

 >I wonder who the sources of this "wild speculation" were
 >regarding Mantell's fatal airplane crash at the time when Ruppelt
 >wrote his book in 1956. Were these sources the same ones which
 >Smith, who like Ruppelt, also had high level U.S. Air Force
 >contacts and was even provided with a piece of a flying saucer
 >shot off over Washington, D.C., got his facts from and mentioned
 >in his 1958 and 1961 talks? A not too clear photo on James
 >Easton's web site allegedly of Mantell's crashed aircraft

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg

 >raises the question that both Ruppelt's and Smith's accounts may
 >not have the whole story. As far as I am concerned, the Mantell
 >UFO incident is still unexplained.


Hi Nick,

In this case I don't think it was anything as exotic as reduced
[molecular] binding. The asymmetrical and  G forces alone would
have done the job. Here's another thought. Mantell could have
passed out before the aircraft reached its pinnacle altitude and
rolled either into a spin or a spiral. The aircraft -properly
trimmed just might have carried Mantell upward another 5,000
feet before it lost trim and descended in whatever manner.

In any event though there are some missing details concerning
the balloon theory, Mantell probably died chasing a balloon. But
we likely never know for sure.

Best,

Don Ledger







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   Jun > Jun 27

                Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:56:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:11:08 -0400
Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting - McCoy


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:26:18 -0300
 >Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting

 >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: June 24 1947 - Arnold's Sighting
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:47:55 -0300

 >And most importantly there were only 5 prototypes, each one-
 >third scale and slow. Additionally, when you are testing
 >unstable designs you don't let them go flying over the
 >treacherous mountainous areas of the Pacific northwest. Best,


Hello, all, Don and Stan,

There was a rocket powered wing: the MX-324,that was the direct
forerunner of all the great x-planes of the 50's , it's
exsistance wasn't revealed until 1947, of course it was limited
to short flights, and took to the air under it's own power.

There was a Jet version that was given a P -something number
that was as nearly limited as the MX-324. These prototypes never
left Muroc (Edwards). The Hortons never had anything on John
Northrop IMHO.

Back in '43,to '44 there was a piston (R-2800) prototype called
the XP-58 Black Bullet, it should have been called something
else:"The Turned Turtle" as I recall, both prototypes crashed, -
on takeoff, and were hated by all who had to get near one.

None of these could be candidates for Arnold's craft, (ditto the
Hortons) because of the numbers, and the sheer technical nature
of flying one of the beasts.

GT McCoy








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   Jun > Jun 28

                      Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:36:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:53:48 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180' - Velez


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >Source: BBCi

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2065000/2065037.stm

 >Thursday, 27 June, 2002, 13:13 GMT 14:13 UK

 >'UFOs? I've seen 180'

<snip>

Hello All,

This post continued:

 >I've had a few hair-raising experiences. Something chased me
 >while I was in the car with my dad.

 >We'd seen something hovering and had got out to have a look when
 >two balls came out as if to get us. At that point I jumped back
 >in the car - I was all for leaving my dad on the side of the
 >road, I was that terrified.

I just want to share an anecdote that kind of reinforces the
reality of these encounters and how just about any human being
might react. Budd Hopkins once relayed an account to me about a
man who had been riddled with unresolved fears and guilt for
years.

During one of his hypnosis sessions the following comes out:

This man and his young son were travelling in their car along a
pretty desolate road when they spotted a UFO. The UFO lands,
blocking the cars' path, and the vehicle shuts down. Some of the
UFOs 'occupants' emerged from the craft, and they approached and
surrounded the stalled automobile. The father, in what must have
been a state of pure terror and blind panic pleaded with the
'aliens' to take his son and to leave him alone.

They did just that.

While reliving the experience during hypnosis this man had a
tremendous cathartic experience. The sense of relief that he
felt afterwards, from the release of the blocked and pent up
emotions along with, finally, knowing what was at the core of
his previously unresolved fears and guilt, had a markedly
beneficial and therapeutic effect on this individual.

The point?

This guy reacted to an impossible situation the way that many
others might have reacted, if confronted with similar
circumstances. Emotions run the gamut in terms of how people
feel and react when in a 'close contact' situation with a UFO or
its occupants. But fear, terror, and confusion, along with awe,
wonder and child-like amazement are all a part of the many
emotional responses any one of us might expect to experience to
such disturbingly close-encounters with the impossible.

There but for the Grace of God go you or I.


Regards,

-keep watching the skies-

John Velez.








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                             Don Ledger Offline

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:50:10 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:55:52 -0400
Subject: Don Ledger Offline


Don Ledger called me, as mine was the only phone number he had
access to, because others are stored on his computer. It crashed
and he expects to be off line for a number of days.

Guess there is a moral here. Back up everything and keep a
separate phone listing.

So he hasn't disappeared, been abducted etc.


Stan Friedman








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               Ohio Crap Circle Forged By Massachusettes Clan

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:07:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:59:00 -0400
Subject: Ohio Crap Circle Forged By Massachusettes Clan


In response to an 'E-mail alert' from someone in Hillsboro, Ohio
claiming that I should "check out a crop circle there", I called
the Hillsboro Times-Gazette newspaper asking for more
information. They informed that a number of college students
from Massachusetts had came to Hillsboro, Ohio to make the crop
circle.

I requested they Fax a copy of their newspaper article and they
courteously did so. Anyhow, I spent the last 18-minutes pecking
out the following article and hope you find it as interesting as
I did


Kenny Young

---

CLOSE ENCOUNTERS IN CAREYTOWN WHEAT FIELD
Monday, June 24. 2002

The Hillsboro (Ohio) Times-Gazette - page 1
By Jennifer Burgel, Brown News Service

CAREYTOWN - If you plant wheat, maybe the Discovery Channel will
come. It worked for Jason and Amy Boeckmann of Sabina.

A production crew has been on-site at their Careytown Road farm
since Thursday filming a Discovery Channel documentary on crop
circles.

John Tindall, who is directing the show, said he expects it will
premier in early August, to coincide with the release of the Mel
Gibson movie "Signs", which is about crop circles.

According to Tindall, a group of aeronautical and astronautical
engineering students from the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology [MIT] was flown in to the area to "scientifically"
produce a crop circle in a wheat field on the Bockmann's farm.

The students set to their task of creating a crop circle in
Careytown under the cover of darkness. Their tools included
boards, strings and a homemade particle shooter. The boards and
strings were used to knock down the wheat in a circular pattern.

"People just normally think crop circles are when the crops are
knocked down or laid down in a certain pattern, but the
scientists are saying, 'No, it's much more than this,'" Tindall
said.

In what Tindall called "quantified" crop circles, he said the
number of iron particles in the soil is usually higher,
expulsion cavities are often found and the crops are superheated
much as they would be in a microwave oven.

The students used a particle shooter made out of pipe, propane,
a generator and a water bottle. This contraption was used to
spread iron molecules in the soil inside the crop circle.

Tindall said the maturity of the wheat made the Bockmann's field
a good fit for the project. He said producers of the documentary
did an extensive search to find the perfect field.

"They canvassed the whole country trying to come up with wheat
that was a week to two weeks from harvesting," Tindall said.
"This is a winter wheat crop, and we're really fortunate that
Jason and Amy are letting us do this. They're the greatest."

Amy Boeckmann said when producers phoned the Ohio Department of
Agriculture looking for a farm, they found a friend of the
Boeckmann's on the other end of the line. She said her friend
contacted her, and plans for the filming began.

According to Tindall, the intention of the documentary is not to
prove that crop circles do or do not have a connection to an
alien life form.

"The purpose of this is to simply say that if indeed all these
things are present in a crop circle, it's very difficult to
achieve them all - so whoever's hoaxing them is going to a lot
of trouble," Tindall said. "We're not saying whether crop
circles are real or not."

Lisa Messeri, one of the MIT students working on the project,
said she is skeptical of theories that give crop circles more
credibility than that of elaborate hoaxes.

"The crop circles we have seen have all been very patterned and
geometric. It's a great art, but I would be hesitant to say it's
something more than art," Messeri said.

Messeri said she thinks the perfection that is found in the crop
circles discredits arguments that they are created from space.

"If they're saying that its energies coming down from space
compressed, I don't know, that just doesn't make any sense," she
said.

She said she thinks people get a thrill out of pulling pranks.

"Why do people hoax? Why is there a Loch Ness monster? People
are like that," Messeri said. "I mean, this has been a lot of
fun."

And as for crop circles' origin, MIT student Dominic Rizzo said,
"There's a lot of really wealthy people with a lot of time."

The heightened iron content, Messeri said, can be explained by
meteor showers that could have occurred in the area before the
crop circles appeared.

"Plus, too, some parts of the soil just naturally have a higher
iron content," Messeri said.

Amy Boeckmann said hosting the crew has been an enjoyable
experience, one she and her husband won't soon forget. She said
they have learned a lot by spending time with the crew, and
hopes they have imparted some of their wisdom to the city
dwellers who have spend part of the week on their farm.

"Any opportunity that we get to explain or help other people
understand all about agriculture, it just benefits us all the
more," she said.

End of article








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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:31:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:05:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Velez


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:06:35 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:48:06 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone
 >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:53:53 -0700

 >>I've fought many fires on the Apache Rez and in the Apache-
 >>Sitgraves, Based in Winslow. My heart goes out to you folks.

 >><snip>

 >>>I don't wish to go into more detail until I have had a chance to
 >>>find and speak with Mike again, to (a) make sure he and his
 >>>family are safe, and (b) ascertain to what extent he was able to
 >>>gather evidence from the Turkey Springs area. Suffice to say for
 >>>the moment that whatever really happened at Turkey Springs may
 >>>remain a tree-whispered secret that is now 'Gone with the
 >>>Wind'.....

 >>Yes, and I am saddened too, not only for the loss of the most
 >>goregous Ponderosa forest anywhere, and the economic loss, if
 >>there was an answer to the Walton case, that too. This from a
 >>Walton doubter. I hope and pray things will turn out well for
 >>you folks,

 >Thank you, GT, we all deeply appreciate the country's concern.

 >This loss is not just Arizona's, but the nation's as well.


Hello Jim, GT, All,

As a New Yorker who knows all too well how the folks in Arizona
are feeling right now, I wanted to express my empathy. The rest
of the country came through for us after Sept. 11 and I'm
certain they will come through for the people and businesses
that have been adversely affected in Arizona. My best wishes to
you all.

Re: Travis Walton/Mike Rogers

I had the pleasure of dinning with both of these gentlemen and
their wives at the gala dinner that was held at the 50th
anniversary celebration of the Roswell case. (In Roswell, 1997)

I found both of these men to be bright, serious and sober
individuals. Not the type that could even remotely be labelled
as 'kooks'. I have been following this thread closely because I
happen to be among those that believe Travis and Mike and their
account of what transpired on the day that Travis disappeared.
(And subsequently re-appeared)

I am curious Jim, were you hoping to find (after all this time)
some kind of residual physical evidence at the location of the
abduction? Do you know if anyone (at the time) bothered to
inspect the trees for damage? Or if radiation levels,
electromagnetic anomalies and such were ever checked/measured?

If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious about what it was you
were looking for/going to check out, at the site.

Brief digression:

There's a funny story about how we came to be seated at the same
table at the dinner in Roswell. I was attending the event with
Budd Hopkins. Budd was seated at the speakers table so I was
left to fend for myself when it came to seating. There were
several large, empty tables available so it wasn't like I didn't
have a choice.

Because I was tired of answering questions and talking to
strangers I looked for the most isolated, out of the way, and
empty table in the hanger. (We were at the 509th Bomber Group
airbase - in the very hanger where Pappy Henderson claims he saw
the little alien bodies and crates of debris.)

I made myself a plate from the buffet and made a bee-line for a
table way in the back of the hanger and up against the far wall
from the entrance. After a few moments a woman came over to me
and asked if the other seats were available. I told her yes and
she headed off to get her husband - Travis Walton.

After introductions he called over to someone he obviously knew
and it turned out to be Mike Rogers and his wife. They joined
us. A few minutes later another woman comes over to our table
and asked if the remaining four chairs were available. We told
her "Yes.", and she soon returned with three others.

After everybody introduced themselves to each other it dawned on
all of us that we were all abductees! In fact, every abductee
that was speaking at, or attending, the many talks and
conferences was seated at our table. It was not planned, and
none of us even knew each other before meeting at that dinner
table.

Pure coincidence? 'Freaky' coincidence says I! We all shared a
huge cosmic laugh over it. :)

Regards, and nice to meet you and have you on the List Jim.


John Velez








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               Re: CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up -

From: Ives Lewis <iveslewis@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:25:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:12:49 -0400
Subject: Re: CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up -


The June 27 posts at the UFO Updates Archive includes a
're-post' entitled

'CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up'

at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m27-011.shtml

The article was published at Space.com in 1999, and written by
Robert Scott Martin.

It is ironic that the Robert Scott Martin, the writer of the
Space.com article, wrote the following:

 >Haines himself continued the suppressive policy, perhaps
 >unconsciously, by writing that the CIA "paid only limited and
 >peripheral attention to the phenomena" since the early 1950s.

Mr. Martin continues that tradition, by failing to look beyond
the CIA's transparent mea culpas about how they mismanaged UFO
information. Since the 1950s, the CIA's treatment of UFOs
mirrors the models of how the agency would manage any
information deemed to be secret and of national security
importance. This is not objective reporting, nor is it
investigative journalism. While the article pretends to take a
critical look at Haines, it is fact another opportunity for the
company line on UFOs to be repeated publicy. The criticisms of
Haines are minor. In the end, what is the reader left with?
Overall, yet another endorsement of the nonsense that the UFO
mystery is simply an off-shoot of cold-war information
management gone wrong.

 >The UFO issue probably will not go away soon, no matter what
 >the agency does or says. The belief that we are not alone in
 >the universe is too emotionally appealing and the distrust of
 >our government is too pervasive to make the issue amenable to
 >traditional scientific studies of rational explanation and
 >evidence."

The above statement by Haines, regurgitated by Mr. Martin in the
article, is astonishingly manipulative. Granted that most people
would rather think we are not alone in the Universe. So what?
People have a distrust of government. Good. That's a healthy
requirement of any democracy. But Haines takes those natural
inclinations and concludes that they render UFOs "not amenable
to traditional scientific studies of rational explanation and
evidence". Really? How so? What is the exact mechanism that
accomplishes that? That's a big jump - that some public feelings
actually render the scientific method impotent. It wins my
personal award for "unsupported conclusion of the Year" award.

Congratulations to Space.com for once again demonstrating that
mass media is useless in covering the UFO issue. There are
really only two answers for their failure; they are either
incompetent or complicit with those who would suppress the
truth. Sadly, their history suggests the latter.


Duncan Lewis







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                   EW: SETI - Are Aliens Already Among Us?

From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior_electricwarrior_com@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:15:42 -0400
Subject: EW: SETI - Are Aliens Already Among Us?

--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Web Log June 27, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
SETI: ARE ALIENS ALREADY AMONG US?
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: Electrogravitic Sunset (Classic Flying Saucers)

http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewElectrograviticSunsetThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - According to SETI Senior Astronomer
Seth Shostak, about half the US population believes in alien
visitation. But, although he's convinced that ET may really be
out there, it isn't likely that aliens are already among us.

"While I certainly expect that the Galaxy is home to many
advanced societies, the quality of the evidence has so far
failed to convince me that any of them have emissaries on our
planet," says Shostak, writing for Space.com

The ET scientist considers three scenarios. We're making contact
right now: Statistically improbable. ET comes here all the time:
anthropological overkill. Human activity makes Earth a nice
place to visit: ET can't get here from there.

Shostak doesn't think that aliens live close enough to Earth to
have detected us, and then visit. At best, humans have been
technologically savvy enough to announce our existence for about
70 years. Even if extraterrestrials could space-warp to Earth in
essentially no time, our signals would have propagated to only
about 3 dozen stars in our vicinity.

According to Shostak, the best way for aliens to contact Earth
is by responding to radio signals that SETI is broadcasting to
the galaxy. As reported by this blog, the SETI@Home grid of
networked computers recently aggregated 1 million years of CPU
time. The Internet-based cooperative computing effort can
process SETI data with the power of a modern super computer.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

27-Jun-02
Would Aliens Visit?

http://space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_visit_020627.html

(Space.com) PROJECT PHOENIX - This is such a controversial (and
emotional) topic that its mere mention in one of these articles
is usually sufficient to guarantee a storm of Web chat and high-
voltage e-mails. In the end, of course, the matter of alien
visitation will be decided by the evidence, not by the intensity
of opinion.

05-Jun-02
Search for ET Crunches 1 Mega-Year of CPU Time

http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0043.htm

(The Electric Warrior) - ET scientists who set a personal
computing milestone are also pondering what to say at first
contact. Both sides need to think up something better than "Take
me to your leader."

The project is the brain child of the SETI Institute, a non-
profit group based in California's Silicon Valley. They're
looking for ET, and they're doing it by searching for signs of
intelligence gathered by commercial radio telescopes.

--------------------------------------------------
GET THE WALLPAPER

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http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewElectrograviticSunset.jpg

Download a 600x600 version of the classic flying
saucers depicted in 'Electrogravitic Sunset',
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--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 27, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the
content of Web links. Content reproduced here is
for informational purposes only. All copyrights
Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com









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              New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:31:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:03:35 -0400
Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of


The link to the text below refers to the book's own site.

http://res.krasu.ru/liq_ufo/ann_eng.htm

The author, Pavel Poluyan, has just been interviewed on
PRAVDA.ru. The link and the first part is available at the end
of this mail.

Stig

***

Liquidation of the UFO

In the book "Liquidation of the UFO", the Krasnoyarsk researcher
Pavel Poluyan nominates and specifically proves a version of
war- industry origin of "flying discs", based on the thorough
analysis of the problem of the UFOs. Pavel Poluyan proves that
the explanation of their flight doesn't need any exotic theory.
The author of the book explains the principle, which is used by
"flying discs" to create the carrying capacity: the difference
of forces of any resistance, which occurs in uneven oscillation
of cup-like and ellipsoidal forms in gaseous medium. This is the
aerodynamic effect. It is shown, that during the UW frequences
of vibration and overless amplitudes there are oscillation of
difference of forces of any air resistance enough for upward
flight and movement.

The author points out, that the repulsive power of induction,
which occurs in the metal-plastic body of "flying discs" as a
result of highfrequences variable electromagnetic fild, is used
to create such a "motive vibration". On the basis of the stated
principle the author explains the featurs UFO, the air
luminescence around the vibrating body, the electric devices
behaviour near the working system, etc.

Pavel Poluyan maintains that "flying discs" were created at the
end of the 40s within the framework of military project as a
great secret in the USA, and that numerous UFO incidents in the
United States that years were connected with the process of the
system's examination and its usage for military purposes. Using
the information stated in the book of Dr. B.Maccabee (Bruce
Maccabee, Ph.D. "UFO FBI Connection. The Secret History of the
Government's Cover-Up", 2000, Llewellyn Publications, St. Paul,
Minnesota 55164-0383, USA.) the Krasnoyarsk scientist analyses
the elements of company misinformation, which conducted secret
service of the USA and is freele or not published by mass-media.

Pavel Poluyan says that the "UFO mystery" is also known to
military engineers of Russia. The author in an exciting form
tells how he attracted the attention of the public to this
secret problem, using for that purpose newspapers and magazines
of Moscow and Krasnoyarsk and also TV opportunities. There are
also same facts, evidenced the opposition of the secret service,
whom the author foced during the promulgation of his
information. Pavel Poluyan asks the world community and public
opinion to do the best to discredit "the greatest mystification
of XX century" and to stop exploit the secret technology for
wrong purposes. The author allows to use freely all the
information written in the book to find the truth within the
interest of benefit and mutually advantageous cooperation among
the people.

********

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/27/31259.html

On-line PRAVDA

**

Pravda.RU:Top Stories:More in detail

*

14:20 2002-06-27

UFO POLITICS. IS THE US GOVERNMENT READY TO OPEN UP ITS MILITARY
SECRETS?

PART I

** Question. Pavel, in your book, you try to prove that there
are no extraterrestrials at all, while "flying saucers" are
secret devices made in the USA in the late 1940s for
reconnaissance and diversion. Is this not too bold?

Answer. You mean that extraterrestrials are gentle people, while
the Americans should be offended? You know, during George Bush's
visit to Moscow, RenTV showed the film UFO: life behind barbed
wire, where people in uniform, generals and colonels of the
Russian army, told about their observations and about the state
program of spying on "flying saucers" over USSR territory. The
generals pointed to Americans: they are said to possess secret
technology that is dangerous for the whole of mankind. That was
at the time of the US president's, when US analyst services
monitored all publications of the Russian mass media. In your
view, why was this done?

Q. Do you mean that the Americans were provoked while hinting
that it was time to disclose UFO secrets?

Answer. Recently, PRAVDA.Ru published an interview with Stephen
Bassett, who is running for the US Congress. The Disclosure2003
campaign accuses Bush Senior of taking the decision to classify
UFO documents while he was director of the FBI. You should admit
that a strange political question has risen around these
notorious "flying saucers."

Q. How do you think this can be understood?

A. I will start in a roundabout way. 55 years ago, June 1947,
the so-called Roswell incident took place in the US: a "flying
saucer" crashed. The US military stated that it was a secret
balloon had fallen, while journalists put forward the UFO
version, because, at that time, in the US, "flying saucers" were
often observed. Therefore, since that time, the myth of
extraterrestrials has been alive.

Unfortunately, the truth is more prosaic: in the 1940s, the US
actively tested secret flying devices that often wrecked. And it
is obvious that these were namely tests, because different
devices with different types of engines were seen. Look at least
into the Bruce Maccabee book, (UFO-FBI CONNECTION. The Secret
History of the Government's Cover-Up): there are different
declassified reports from government institutions. There is also
evidence that the "flying saucers" of the 1940s had nozzles,
vertical trimmers, and flew in a zigzag way, so an inversion
track could be seen after them.

Let us logically think: if the "flying saucers" are not
hallucinations and not natural phenomena but artificial devices,
there are only two variants: they were produced either on the
Earth or somewhere else. UFOs seriously differ from aircraft and
helicopters: they have no wings, they are silent, and they have
some luminescence around them. Therefore, the extraterrestrial
version is the most logical. However, this explanation is too
impossible, too fantastic; however, it sounds very romantic. On
the other hand, in the 20th century, technological change
brought many surprises to mankind: let us take the nuclear bomb.
Who knows what else could have been born in secret laboratories,
for astronomical sums were invested in the arms race.

Q. Following your thought, in the middle of the 20th century,
did scientists discovered the secret of anti- gravitation?

A. The most laughable thing is that to explain how "flying
saucers" fly, no exotic theories are needed about some unknown
anti-gravitational fields. The secret of these unusual devices
is in the cunning use of a special aerodynamic effect, which was
known already at the beginning of the era of aircraft
construction.

As a child, you most likely played with an opened umbrella:
while moving it abruptly towards you, you could feel the
resistance of the air mass. People already played these games in
the early 20th century, when the first planes started. In some
old chronicles, you could see among other flying "shelves" an
odd device: a huge umbrella with an engine and pilot. The
umbrella moved sometimes up, sometimes down, the device became
airborne and again returned to the ground. That was the ancestor
of "flying saucers." Here, the effect of repulsion from
surroundings is at work. In this way, birds and butterflies fly.
However, a human being cannot repulse from air; Icarus could
only be in myths. While, in a more thick surroundings, for
example in water, people can repulse while swimming. More
interesting than a small bird is how a dragonfly flys: it can
simply hang in the air while minutely moving its wings.
Therefore, if a human being was equipped with huge wings to
repulse air very quickly, he could try to compensate for gravity
with the whole sum of repulsing impulses. However, you hardly
could imagine plane wings trembling in a dragonfly way. It is
much easier to imagine a kind of umbrella with which we catch
air. An umbrella in the form of a saucer.

There is no miracle in the parachute. Physically, the essence of
the process is that the great square of the canopy, while slowly
moving down, meets frontal resistance, which compensates for
gravity's pull on the parachute jumper. The form is also very
important: the hollow surface has the biggest strength factor,
while the surface bent towards the movement, a smooth form, has
a smaller strength factor. Therefore, it is clear why the first
"flying saucers" had such a form: flat from below and smooth
from above. These "flying saucers" can fly without anti-
gravitation; they simply lean against the air. For example, a
"flying disc" is built like an almond.

A "flying saucer" is a kind of hard parachute, which, through
irregular microamplitude movements, not only cancels the
acceleration of gravety, but also overcomes gravitaty. It is not
by chance that a "flying saucer" in air is similar to a medusa
in water, which also uses the difference of forces while moving
up and down.

Any engineer can make calculations and, after solving a
differential equation, understand that the a "saucer" can fly.
According to the calculations, to lift a real flying device, the
pusher corpse must vibrate with ultrasonic frequency. The lowest
level is 10 kilohertz; if the shear upwards within one vibration
is 1 mm, the speed of the strictly vertical lifting is 10 meters
a second.

Q. Pavel, this is not journalism; this is a real working scheme,
an invention. And you openly tell about it.

A. All rights were already reserved, though "top secret." Many
specialists from different spheres know about it, though they
prefer to keep silent. However, it is very important to tell
people about it: they should not be afraid of UFOs.

Really, people could become panic-stricken while seeing in the
sky a luminous ellipsoid silently moving with great speed. It is
clear why the extraterrestrial myth appeared. In some degree, US
military could have been justified. A top secret plan was
necessary to protect the new creations from Soviet spies.
According to some information, initial design of such flying
devices was stolen by the Americans from captive German
engineers. British pilots saw small UFOs over German territory,
which seemed to emerge towards the attacking bombers. Later, the
myth was spread, so it lost its mystery. Nobody wanted to be
responsible for misinformation. Soviet engineers in their turn
understood that the "flying saucers" existed, so it was by then
a common military secret.

Q. And when did this happen?

A. The discernment came in the 1970s. I remember one noticeable
report on the Vremya informational television program. Soviet
scientist Shklovsky proved that we are alone in the universe and
that there are no extraterrestrials. At that time, this meant
that this was the government and the party position. At that
time, some UFO publications started to penetrate into the mass
media to cancel the psychosis, while the system organized by KGB
system of gathering information about UFOs over USSR territory
was only for counterintelligence needs.

The book Liquidation of the UFO (in Russian) was published in
Krasnoyarsk in 2002, while, on the Internet it can also be found
(in Russian, too) on Krasu.ru

PRAVDA.Ru

To be continued

Translated by Vera Solovieva








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   Jun > Jun 28

                          Secrecy News -- 06/27/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:38:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:05:47 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/27/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 58
June 27, 2002


**      HOUSE ADOPTS HOMELAND SECURITY INFO SHARING ACT
**      HOMELAND SECURITY OVERSIGHT QUESTIONED
**      BATTLE OVER CENSUS DATA RENEWED
**      SENATE SEEKS SHAD DECLASSIFICATION
**      OTHER SECRECY NEWS


HOUSE ADOPTS HOMELAND SECURITY INFO SHARING ACT

The House of Representatives yesterday approved legislation to
facilitate the sharing of U.S. intelligence and other federal
homeland security information with state and local agencies.

"This bill will help to eliminate the stovepipes that exist in
the intelligence and law enforcement worlds with respect to
sharing of vital information and will assist officials across
government to communicate with each other," said Rep. Saxby
Chambliss (R-GA).

The Homeland Security Information Sharing Act would generally
direct the President to establish procedures for declassifying
or redacting classified information so that it could be widely
disseminated among officials at all levels.  The Act would not
substantively alter classification criteria or procedures.  Nor
would it be likely to result in any increased public disclosure
of homeland security information.

The Act calls for development of procedures by which "to
identify and safeguard homeland security information that is
sensitive but unclassified," a notoriously problematic task that
would define a sort of hybrid middle ground between classified
and unclassified information.

See the June 25 House Judiciary Committee report on the Homeland
Security Information Sharing Act here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_rpt/hrpt107-534.html

See the June 26 House floor debate and vote on the Act here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/h062602.html

The Bush Administration weighed in favorably but with some
caveats in a June 26 Statement of Administration Policy on the
bill here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/hr4598sap.html


HOMELAND SECURITY OVERSIGHT QUESTIONED

"The Administration is asking us to put this new Department [of
Homeland Security] above the law and outside the checks and
balances these laws are put there to ensure," said Senator
Patrick Leahy at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on June
26.

Senator Leahy itemized his concerns in a prepared statement
available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/062602leahy.html

Senator Chuck Grassley raised many of the same issues, from
whistleblower protection to freedom of information, in a letter
he sent to Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge on June 19:

http://grassley.senate.gov/releases/2002/p02r6-19.htm

In response, Mr. Ridge stressed yesterday that the proposed
Department is a "work in progress."

See also "Security bill bars blowing whistle" by Audrey Hudson
in the June 22 Washington Times:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020622-42082444.htm


BATTLE OVER CENSUS DATA RENEWED

One of the early pre-September 11 indicators of the Bush
Administration's predilection for official secrecy was a
needless dispute with Members of Congress over access to certain
census data.

In May 2001, several members of the House Government Reform
Committee filed suit in federal court to gain access to the
contested data.  In January 2002, they won.

Now, however, the Bush Administration is appealing that ruling
in a renewed effort to block disclosure of the requested
information.

House Democratic leaders filed briefs this week in support of
their colleagues.  (House Republicans side with the
Administration.)  See:

   http://democraticleader.house.gov/media/press/readPress.asp?ID
=344

Background and documentation on the whole dispute is available
here:

   http://www.house.gov/reform/min/inves_other/other_census.htm


SENATE SEEKS SHAD DECLASSIFICATION

The Shipboard Hazard and Defense (SHAD) Project was a Defense
Department experimental program in the 1960s which entailed the
use of biological and chemical agents on U.S. servicemen.  The
existence of SHAD was first acknowledged by the Pentagon in May
of this year.

Yesterday the Senate approved an amendment to the Defense
Authorization Act that would mandate declassification of SHAD-
related medical records, and their transfer to the Department of
Veterans Affairs.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/s062602.html

Out of 113 SHAD tests, only twelve have been declassified to
date.  See the Pentagon's web page on SHAD here:

    http://deploymentlink.osd.mil/current_issues/shad/shad_intro.
shtml


OTHER SECRECY NEWS

As the congressional intelligence committee investigating
September 11 "sifts through Top Secret documents, it faces the
dicey task of balancing the country's right to know with the
danger of who might find out," writes Bill Adair in today's St.
Petersburg Times:

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/06/27/Worldandnation/The_conundrum__
share_.shtml

The latest declassified document releases from the UK Public
Records Office concerning Winston Churchill and Lawrence of
Arabia are announced here:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/r2002.htm

Recently declassified U.S. government documents concerning
Peru's disgraced intelligence chief Vladimiro Montesinos were
published today by the National Security Archive in a briefing
book edited by Tamara Feinstein.  See:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB72/


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message: subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jun > Jun 28

                         'AirBoard' The Sidewalk UFO

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:30:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:09:40 -0400
Subject: 'AirBoard' The Sidewalk UFO


Source: Tech TV,

http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/products/story/0,23008,3379499,00.html

Go to the site for photo!

Stig

***

First Look: ZAP AirBoard

**

Surf over urban landscape on a cushion of air. Watch On Saturday
6/29 at 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., and 6:30 p.m. All times Eastern.

*

By Charlyn Villegas

June 26, 2002

*

Gawking stares and curious whispers accompanied me as I sailed
down the sidewalk on top of ZAP's AirBoard. As the motor of the
personal hovercraft blasted an intense jet of air below me, I
felt like I was arriving from another planet. And judging from
the reactions of onlookers, I might as well have been. Watch
'Fresh Gear' this week to see the AirBoard in action.

A cushion of air trapped underneath the UFO-like body suspends
the AirBoard three to four inches off the ground. Running off a
gas-powered lawn mower engine, the AirBoard can reach speeds up
to 15 mph and carry up to 220 pounds. On one full tank of gas
(1.3 gallons), AirBoard's maker claims an operating time of
about one hour.

**

Copyright =A9 2002 TechTV Inc. All rights reserved.








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   Jun > Jun 28

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:14:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:48:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:00:08 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>Isn't what happened that at 17 miles the balloon device dropped
 >>to an altitude that caused it to disappear from the radar set
 >>which was tracking it from White Sands, or wherever?

 >Tracked from Alamogorodo. Flight 4 was a calibration test, done
 >to evaluate the feasability of tracking these balloon systems
 >with radar. The data indicated that this was not going to work,
 >and the trailing bomber broke off soon after launch.

So Moriarity, we meet again. I see you are back to your old
tricks of making things up as you go along.

Flight #4 is a convenient modern-day scapegoat for the Roswell
crash because there is _no data_ on it to tell us exactly how it
was configured when it was launched, what direction it headed,
how long it was airborne, how high it got, or where it ended up.

I repeat. There is _no data_. There are no surviving documents
on it to tell us any of these things. Therefore, it can be
molded into anything you want it to be and do.

Charle's Moore's explanation in his book (UFO Crash at Roswell:
The Genesis of a Modern Myth with Saler and Ziegler) for the
lack of records is (p. 84), "There is no mention of this flight
in the NYU flight summary, because _no altitude data or ground
track were obtained_"

<snip>

 >>As I recall from the Moore account we only have one launch that
 >>fits the bill so to speak. We also only have _one_ person, i.e.
 >>Moore who says that his diary/journal claimed that a launch took
 >>place on June 4th.

 >Actually, the diary in question was not Moore's, but Albert
 >Crary's, who was the on-site director of operations. So that
 >makes two people.

 >(Entry for Jun 4, 1947)"...Flew regular sono buoy up in cluster
 >of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on
 >plane."

Actually, Moore used Crary's diary to refresh his memory,
because Moore didn't know what date it went up. He just knew
there was a missing N.M. Mogul flight in the records between
flight #3 in New Jersey and Flight #5 in N.M. on July 5, and had
some vague memories about it.

Note that Crary's entry doesn't say anything at all about the
flight being configured with radar reflectors or tracked by
radar.

Furthermore, the sentence immediately before the above entry,
has Crary stating, "No balloon flight again on account of
clouds." That confuses the situation considerably, because then
Crary says they sent something up anyway.

If there had been detailed tracking of this balloon, there would
have been good reason to keep the data. But this was one of two
of the early Mogul flights that had _no flight data_ and weren't
included in the records. The other was Flight #9 on July 3,
which was again scrubbed after an aborted V-2 launch. The
inflated balloons were apparently cut loose, and like Flight #4,
that's about all we really know about its ultimate fate.

 >Moore's recollections, given _before_ the diary was found, fit
 >Crary's entry.

Sorry, Moore didn't recall the date and Crary's diary says
nothing about radar reflectors or radar tracking, which Moore
claims was also used. Aside from this one man's 40+ year-old
memory of this, there is no evidence that radar was used on this
flight. Maybe it was, but there is no record of it.

And for sure there is _no data_ on its trajectory.

 >>As I recall we have no other records or
 >>information that can be verified that in fact can confirm that a
 >>balloon and package was even launched.

 >At least there _is_ a record- writen, verified as authentic, and
 >very solid.

Yes authentic, but what exactly do you mean by "solid?" There is
almost no detail about the flight here. It gives the date, but
not the time, a little bit about the configuration (balloon
array and sonobuoy) but nothing else. Certainly nothing about
radar tracking, direction, flight time, or impact point. It even
says the flight had been scrubbed, then seems to indicate that
they sent the balloons up anyway, perhaps because you can't
reuse the balloons once they are inflated, like the scrubbed
Flight #9 of a month later.

 >Remember that there are _no_ records of any kind
 >that can confirm that the Army Air Force recovered a saucer. :)

Well actually there is. It's held in Gen. Ramey's hand and talks
of "the victims of the wreck" and shipping something "in the
'disc'". More on this soon.

 >>Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
 >>data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
 >>currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
 >>to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17 miles
 >>of the ranch.

Again you seem a might confused. Moore's claim (i.e. memory) is
they tracked the balloon to within 17 miles of the Foster Ranch.
(Again, there is zero documentation to support this.)

On the other hand, Moore's "analysis" makes a multitude of
_assumptions_ so that Flight #4 would drop on top of Mack
Brazel's head.

However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
miles away:

(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
minute flight."

That would have put Flight 4 somewhere in southwest Kansas, not
the Foster ranch. Where did you get the idea that Moore's
analysis somehow proved that the balloons came down within 17
miles of the ranch?

That's the problem with having lots of variables to play with
and _no tracking data_ to pin anything down. You can make this
balloon go and end up just about anywhere you want.

Once a noted physicist said, "Give me three variables and I can
describe an elephant. Give me four and I can get it to wag its
tail."

Roswell debunkers are guilty of wagging the Mogul.

 >>Now I would point out that apparently nobody
 >>independent of Moore has run an analysis of the same data, i.e.
 >>upper air currents, payload etc etc.

 >This is correct... but note that the analysis of Moore's puts
 >flight #4 _within_ 17 miles, _not_ 17 miles "short"!

Moore's "analysis" will put the balloon practically anywhere you
want it, depending on what assumptions you use and how you tweak
the variables.

And again, Moore's story was that they lost contact with Flight
#4 about 17 miles from the ranch, not that his analysis firmly
places the flight's end "within 17 miles".

 >It is worth noting that this kind of analysis cannot, by any
 >stretch, provide a precise prediction- the kind that would
 >place Flight #4 exactly on Foster's Ranch.

Well, at least you got that right. In fact, Moore titles one
section "A _possible_ ground track for NYU Flight #4."

 >Prof Moore was an ackowledged expert on meteorology,

A typical skeptical appeal to authority. That doesn't mean his
analysis is right given the very large number of assumptions he
makes and the complete absence of any tracking data.

 >and it would be very difficult to dispute his conclusions.

Which conclusions? That it landed in Mack Brazel's pasture?
Tweak the variables slightly differently and the balloon ends up
somewhere else entirely, even Moore's 150 miles away.

 >However, if
 >you would like to get another opinion, you can get the weather
 >service data from Kevin Randle. He is the one who gave the data
 >to Prof Moore.

Not necessary. Any critical analysis of Moore's model creates
holes big enough to fly a fleet of flying saucers through.

In brief, Moore makes lots of assumptions, has no tracking data,
and only scanty weather data.

 >>As I recall there was _no_ radar tracking data of that flight
 >>what so ever.

 >Incorrect. Radar tracking by a trailing bomber was attempted,

Again false, according to Moore himself. Crary's diary mentioned
a sonobuoy with the balloon cluster which was transmitting
signals, hence Crary's entry "had good luck on receiver on
ground but poor on plane."

According to Moore (p. 85), "As I remember this flight, the B-17
crew terminated the chase while the balloons were still
airborne.... From the note in Crary's diary, the chase was
terminated because of the poor reception of the telemetered
_acoustic_ information by the receiver aboard the plane."

Now where in the world did you get the idea this was referring
to radar tracking by the bomber? The only radar tracking was by
_ground_ radar from Alamagordo. Of the 5 early recorded Moguls
in June/July 1947, the only one with any indication of radar
tracking in the Mogul summaries was the first polyethylene
balloon flight, #8, on July 3.

 >(which was the purpose of the flight, and the reason it carried
 >Rawins)

Circular reasoning. They must have been tracking by radar and
the balloon must have been carrying radar targets because you
_assume_ from the start that this was the purpose of the flight.

But all that can be inferred from Crary's diary is that they
were testing the sonobuoy reception, not the radar tracking.
That's not according to me; that's according to Moore.

Furthermore, Moore's explanation for the lack of records on
Flight #4 is that they had _no tracking data_. If they had been
tracking the balloon visually by theodolite (Moore's memory) and
by radar (again Moore's memory, not documented in Crary's
diary), then why the complete absence of tracking data that
caused Flight #4 to be thrown out of Mogul records?

 >but the returns were very poor (Crary diary entry for June 4).

Crary indicates the _sonobuoy_ signal reception was poor. Again,
where did you dream up this was radar returns from airborne
radar?

 >Moore recalled that the bomber broke off tracking very
 >soon after launch.

That's not correct either, but it's not a point worth bothering with.

 >>Apparently based upon that we have Moore pronouncement that the
 >>package/balloon accounted for the debris field. In essence the
 >>theory at best was 17 miles short.

 >Nope - the word "short" is incorrect. Moore prediction for
 >flight #4 said it should have landed "within" 17 miles of the
 >actual impact site.

Again not correct. Maybe you should read what Moore actually
wrote instead of making it up.

 >Aside from that, 17 miles is amazingly close. Meterology is not
 >a precise science. Any expectations for more accuracy is just
 >wishful thinking.

It's not just Moore's use and interpretation of meteorological
records that is in question. It's other assumptions about launch
time, rise time, altitude, and flight time, for which there is
_no data._ It's all educated guesswork and assumptions on
Moore's part. To think that you could place the balloon with a
high level confidence to within even 17 miles of the ranch is
indeed "wishful thinking." Or perhaps it is more a matter of a
lack of critical thinking.

 >>I find it amusing that one one hand skeptibunkers will seize
 >>upon a skeptical theory that at best is 17 miles short and
 >>pronounce that as a valid, scientific explaination of what
 >>happened.

 >Even more amusing is the notion that Moore's prediction, which
 >came within 17 miles, is somehow a shortcoming. Talk to any
 >meteorlogical expert (your local TV weather guy/gal would be a
 >good source) and I will predict that you will get the opinion
 >that Moore's data is very impressive evidence.

Still more amusing is your statement that "Moore's data is very
impressive evidence" since he had _no tracking data._ Zero,
nada. Moore said there were no records on Flight #4 because of
that.

The only real data Moore had was a very limited set of
meteorological wind data from a weather station at Orogrande 32
miles south of Alamogordo plus some general weather maps.

The Orogrande data was for balloon launches at 9:00 am. But
Moore assumes Flight #4 started in the wee hours of the morning
so he could keep his balloons up a lot longer than normal and
make them end up on the Foster Ranch using a host of other
assumptions. By the time the Orogrande weather balloon went up,
Moore's hypothetical flight was already coming down on the
Foster ranch about 90 miles north of Alamomogordo and 120 miles
north of Orogrande.

So Moore is trying to extrapolate wind directions not only at
points distant in space but also in time.

Furthermore, the actual Orogrande wind data only goes to 14,000
feet. But Moore assumes Flight #4 got to about 57,000 feet. So
Moore is making further assumptions about wind speed and
direction at altitudes not covered by the Orogrande data set.

I won't bother you with statements in Mogul records and a paper
Moore cowrote about Mogul in the J. Meteorology in 1948 which
state that they were unable to predict the direction of the
flights from wind data collected at surrounding weather stations
in Albuquerque, El Paso, and Roswell. There is even a statement
that they couldn't reliability predict the direction from the
pilot balloons they sent up at Alamogordo itself prior to the
actual Mogul launches. So what makes you think another set of
limited wind data from Orogrande will necessarily make
prediction any more reliable?

Moore makes a large number of other assumptions and
extrapolations in his hypothetical balloon track of Flight #4 to
Mack Brazel's corrale. This totally hypothetical balloon track
is probably what Bruce Hutchinson refers to as "impressive
data." But Moore's tables of numbers are not "data" but what his
model with all its assumptions predicts. I repeat, Moore had no
tracking data.

Anybody who thinks you can accurately predict the actual
trajectory of Flight #4 from this scanty weather data and
plethora of assumptions is living in a dream world. Moore
himself notes that if his assumption of the balloon's maximum
altitude was wrong, his model could put the balloon 150 miles
away even leaving his other assumptions untouched.

 >Even if you leave out Moore's recollections, the evidence is
 >very solid that Flight 4 was indeed launched.

 >We can (I predict
 >we always will!) debate whether Brazel found rements of flight
 >4, or something else. But we should not be debating the
 >existance of Flight #4.

OK, based on Crary's diary some part of the original balloon
seems to have been launched, but in what configuration and for
what purpose is highly debatable. There is certainly no evidence
at all, despite your confabulation or misunderstanding, of any
radar tracking from the scanty written record in Crary's diary.
There is also zero tracking data to tell us where it went. All
Crary's diary says is that first they cancelled the planned
flight on account of clouds, just like they had the day before.
But then they sent the balloons with sonobuoy up anyway. The
only other thing it suggests is that they were testing sonobuoy
reception from the ground and air.

Everything else is Moore's memory and reconstruction.


David Rudiak









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                        Northrop MX324 Photo Gallery

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:56:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:18:12 -0400
Subject: Northrop MX324 Photo Gallery


Hello, all

Here is the Northrop MX-324 in all it's glory:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/fta/mx324pg.htm

Flash Gordon, eat your heart out!


GT McCoy








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              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:00:53 -500
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:20:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:00:08 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

List and Readers;

 >>Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
 >>data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
 >>currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
 >>to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17 miles
 >>of the ranch. Now I would point out that apparently nobody
 >>independent of Moore has run an analysis of the same data, i.e.
 >>upper air currents, payload etc etc.

 >This is correct... but note that the analysis of Moore's puts
 >flight #4 _within_ 17 miles, _not_ 17 miles "short"!

Oops! Not quite correct.....

Moore's recollections were that flight 4 was _tracked_ to within
17 miles of the impact site. Moore's prediction of the flight
path and descent, done years later based on weather service
data, placed the impact "in the vicinity" of the actual site,
and much closer than the "17 miles" we have been bandying about.

As a side note; the orientation of the debris field predicted by
Moore matches Marcel's original description.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                    Shipment Of Dishes Expands ET Search

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 06:13:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:22:19 -0400
Subject: Shipment Of Dishes Expands ET Search


Source: Record Searchlight - Redding, Northern California

http://www.redding.com/top_stories/local/20020627toplo020.shtml

Stig


***

Shipment of dishes expands ET search

350 dishes will make up network for the telescope to scan heavens

**

Jen Cooper

Record Searchlight

June 27, 2002 =97 7:36 a.m.

*

HAT CREEK OBSERVATORY =97 The arrival Wednesday of eight reflector
dishes puts researchers at the SETI Institute one step closer to
their goal: finding extraterrestrial life in space.

The huge metal dishes, which are 20 feet by 24 feet and weigh
more than 1,000 pounds each, are part of the Allen Telescope
Array. The project will use 350 separate dishes to scan the
heavens for life while simultaneously record traditional
astronomy data.

The first shipment of dishes arrived at the Hat Creek
Observatory, operated by the University of California at
Berkeley since the 1960s, shortly before 9 a.m. An 18-wheel
truck that carried them was escorted by three California Highway
Patrol vehicles.

Truck driver Ron Chisham hauled the dishes from Idaho and said
he got used to pointing and staring from other drivers during
his three-day trek. Many people asked if his cargo was a UFO, he
said.

The dome-shaped silver dishes look like Hollywood's rendition of
extraterrestrial spacecraft, minus flashing lights and tiny
green men. Chisham and researchers joked about the resemblance
Wednesday morning, saying people probably assumed the dishes
were coming from Area 51 =97 a secured military base north of Las
Vegas rumored to harbor alien life =97 not Idaho Falls.

The Allen Telescope Array was originally called the One Hectare
Telescope, but the name was changed to reflect the gifts of
Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen. To date, Allen has given $11.5
million for the project.

The project is a joint venture between the Mountain View-based
SETI Institute and the University of California at Berkeley. The
institute was named for the discipline of astronomy known as
search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

Seven of the eight reflector dishes were unloaded at the Hat
Creek Observatory, located about 70 miles southeast of Redding
near Lassen Volcanic National Park. The remaining dish was sent
to Antioch where it will be the first dish fully assembled and
wired.

Three of the dishes at the Hat Creek Observatory will be used to
make a test array, which should be fully put together in about
three weeks.

Diane Richards, SETI's director of marketing and communication,
said the most significant thing about this telescope =97 set to be
completed in 2005 =97 is that it will allow researchers the
opportunity to look for life 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

"That's always been a dream of ours," she said. "This is the
first major step."

SETI research is done using radio signals. Researchers target
specific stars and then use different channels to look for radio
emissions.

The Allen Telescope Array also will be able to capture visual
images of space. This telescope will be the first able to take
pictures almost instantly, said David DeBoer, deputy project
manager and engineer.

"Contrary to the National Enquirer, there's absolutely no proof
of extraterrestrials," DeBoer said. "We think one of the best
ways to find out is to look at the transmissions they emit."

Currently, SETI's research is conducted using a telescope in
Puerto Rico, but the institute gets limited time =97 less than two
months every year. Until the telescope array is finished, SETI
will continue to use the Puerto Rico telescope.

"We've been working on this for several years. These are the
first tangible things in the field," he said, motioning to the
eight dishes stacked on the truck.

When SETI's own telescope is completed, researchers predict that
within one or two months, the institute will have collected the
same amount of data as all other SETI projects in the past 40
years.

"It will vastly expand what we're doing," Richards said. "We've
only observed a small number of stars compared to how many stars
there are in the universe."

Before SETI can proceed with its work, it needs to secure about
$12 million in additional funding, Richards said. SETI
researchers are hoping the test array will be successful and
Allen, or another donor, will agree to donate the remaining
funds.

The tests are set to be completed by October, Richards said.
Production on the final telescope is expected to be under way by
next summer.

The fully assembled dishes will be about 30 feet tall, and when
all 350 are installed, they'll stretch for about a -mile radius,
DeBoer said.

Already the Hat Creek Observatory draws more than 1,000 visitors
each year. The telescope array will most likely lead to many
more interested sky-watchers, and DeBoer said the institute has
a long-term goal of building a visitor's center.

DeBoer said people are intrigued with SETI's work because the
institute is seeking to answer an age-old question: Are we alone
in the universe?

The Allen Telescope Array's progress is being watched closely by
other researchers because it could be a prototype for a much
larger international telescope that would have 100 times the
capability of SETI's telescope.

"It just makes our project all the more exciting to have that
potential in front of it," DeBoer said.

Reporter Jen Cooper can be reached at 225-8215 or at:

jcooper@redding.com.

**

Thursday, June 27, 2002

=A92002 Record Searchlight - The E.W. Scripps Co. All rights
reserved.








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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 358

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@libero.it>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:34:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:24:40 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 358


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 358 -14 JUNE 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Italian Sightings in May
- Two New UFO Books
- "Journal Of Mysteries" Changes Publisher


Italian Sightings in May

The number of reports of sightings of UFO phenomena in our
country remains steady.

In the last month, the Italian Center for UFO Studies (CISU) has
received or gathered 68 new cases, counting solely those cases
related to last year and to the first part of 2002.

To be precise, the total observations relative to the remarkable
"Wave" of 2001 has jumped to 762; the number of sightings
recorded over these first five months of 2002 by the Italian UFO
cases log working group has already totaled 179, as compared
with the 136 in the same period last year. The most "visited"
regions of 2002 are as usual: Lombardy and Emilia, followed by
Tuscany and Piedmont.

Thirty-one cases refer to the month of May, the first month of
this year not  affected by some "flap" (that is, a series of
sightings occurring simultaneously in more than one place).
Almost all of the month's sightings involved nocturnal lights,
only one was a possible close encounter having effects.
Meanwhile, a good five reports involved strange traces found on
the ground, though without any direct correlation to UFO
sightings.

[Communication and reporting by Giorgio Abraini.]


Two New UFO Books

In bookstores are two new UFO books which are actually new
editions.

The first one, entitled "Incontri ravvicinati  - Avvistamenti,
contatti e persone di mondi lontani" ("Close Encounters  -
  Sightings, Contacts & People From Distant Worlds"), is
published  by the Giunti Publ. Co. in their collection "Atlanti
del sapere" ("Atlases Of Knowledge") with no indication of its
author and apparently constitutes an updated and expanded
edition of a volume previously published in 1997 under the same
title, by the publishing house Demetra (edited by Pier Giorgio
Viberti): it totals 127 illustrated pages and costs 6.50 Euro.

The second one is entitled "Oltre  - Dal SETI agli UFO  -
  Viaggio tra i fenomeni non classificati alla ricerca del
pensiero alieno" ("Beyond  - From SETI To UFOs  - Journey
Through Unclassified Phenomena in Search of Alien Thought
Processes") and is penned by Roberto Pinotti with journalist
Maurizio Blondet. It is published by the Olimpia Publ. and is an
expanded and updated edition of the historic text "Intelligenze
extraterrestri" ("Extraterrestrial Intelligences"), published in
1981 by the same publisher as a book-format version of a series
of articles having appeared in the illustrated weekly "Gente"
("People") in 1979 (also re-published in '98 by Mondadori). It
costs 17.20 Euro and totals 320 pages.

[Reports by Paolo Fiorino and Maurizio Morini.]


  "Journal Of Mysteries" Changes Publisher

The June issue of  "Il giornale dei misteri" ("Journal Of
Mysteries") is the final one to be published by Corrado Tedeschi
Editore: the progenitor of all Italian commercial journals
dealing with the mysteries and the unknown, it was sold to a
small publishing house in Siena, "I libri del Casato", which
plans to continue its publication using more or less the same
collaborators, but under a new editor.

After seven years, indeed, Fulvia Cariglia is thus departing
from the helm of "G.d.M.", which she had inherited from Giulio
Brunner, who had been the editor since the journal was created
in 1971 by aged Corrado Tedeschi, a publisher of puzzles-based
publications.

Expecially thanks to the writings by the Sezione Ufologica
Fiorentina (SUF and, in particular, to Solas Boncompagni and
Pier Luigi Sani), the pages of "Il giornale dei misteri" have
been for a serious and moderated UFO culture of at least three
generations of UFO buffs; and over these past 31 years, G.d.M.
was the training ground for not a few students and writers of
our argument.

It now remains to be seen where the new management and ownership
will proceed  as of the UFO subject.

[Collaboration by Matteo Leone]


Collaborators on this edition were: Giorgio Abraini, Paolo Fiorino,
Matteo Leone and Maurizio Morini.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.

Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to:

cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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                             Fortean Times Site

From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:16:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:27:57 -0400
Subject: Fortean Times Site


Hi All

We're still here, but are undergoing some complex wrangles with
our previous server hosts.

Basically we'd already moved servers when the previous hosts,
who are close to collapse, and rightly so, as their service was
pretty poor, decided the publishers owed them a _large_ amount
of =A3=A3 which, naturally, our publishers don't believe they owe.
So the previous hosts have refused to pass the relevant info
onto the DNS registry folks and let us have our domain back.

In the meantime the site is up and running, and being updated,
at the slightly clunky

http://www.forteantimesmag.co.uk.

Do pay us a visit!

Cheers
Mark


Mark Pilkington             m.pilkington@virgin.net

----------------------------------------------------------------
"The message is that there are no knowns. There are things we
know that we know. There are known unknowns, that is to say
there are things we now know we don't know. But there are also
unknown unknowns -- things we do not know
we don't know."
                   US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 06.06.02
----------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.strangeattractor.co.uk    :Strange Attractor
http://www.forteantimes.com          :Fortean Times online
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk       :Magonia online
http://www.kosmische.org             :Kosmische Club







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               Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 -

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:05:41 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:33:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 -


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:23:26 -0400
 >Subject: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160

 >SOURCE: La Nueva Provincia
 >DATE: Tuesday, June 25, 2002

 >CATTLE MUTILATION CASES REACH 160

 >These only include reported events. Veterinarians insist that

<snip>

I am dismayed at the lack of interest by authorities to
seriously investigate what is going on with cattle and animal
mutilations, whether they are 'alien' related or not. Sure they
have a token investigation to try to appease the
farmers/ranchers, etc., but this is becoming really serious.

Rants about authorities aside, I have read some good reports by
various UFO organisations, such as NIDS, and this is great, but
I wonder if anyone has tried another approach and contacted
animal rights organisations to see if they have tried to
investigate it?

Hailing from Australia I know, whenever animal cruelty cases make
it to the news, there is a pretty serious investigation done by
the RSPCA (our equiv of the ASPCA) Animal cruelty is treated
with pretty heavy fines and jail time, and they are getting more
and more powers everyday.

There aren't a large number of mutilations reported here, so it
would probably be easier to investigate in the US, Argentina,
etc., where they seem to be a regular occurence. As much as their
budgets are usually strained beyond a joke, they would probably
have the resources to check it out, thoroughly.

I am currently trying this approach, and would be happy to post,
if I get back anything substantial.


Cheers

Sharon K








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                Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:20:30 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:41:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:23:26 -0400
 >Subject: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160

<snip>

 >Can=E9 Speaks out Again

 >Bernardo Can=E9, SENASA's director, spoke out yet again against
 >the theories circulating in regard to cattle mutilations as
 >being something out of the ordinary, citing a book published in
 >France dealing with the subject of "rogue surgeons."

 >"There is a very important bibliographical work which reports
 >that this type of "rogue surgery" has been seen sporadically in
 >the US and Europe. There is even a book entitled The Rogue
 >Surgeons written by a French author," he pointed out.
 >[Translator's note: Card=E9 refers to "Le Grand Carnage" by Michel
 >Grainger].

To Scott Corrales and the List


I have read with great interest your messages on UFO UpDates
regarding the mutilations in Argentina.

I am quite surprised to learn that SENASA's director cited a
French book in his rebutal of the extraordinary nature of the
mutilations.....

I suspect that the translator's work is in error.

Michel Granger (not Grainger) did write write a book on cattle
mutilations in America, called 'The Great Slaughter' ('Le Grand
Carnage'), not 'The Rogue Surgeons'. It was published in 1986,
and was quite positive on the reality of mutilations as an
extraordinary phenomenon - although he believe the ET hypothesis.
It is a very well documented work of 383 pages.

On the other hand, a little book was been published in January
2002, called 'The Rogue Surgeons: Autopsy Of An American Myth'
('Les Chirurgiens Furtifs. Autopsie d'un mythe am=E9ricain'),
written by a newcomer to French ufology, Yann Mege.

Mege is totally skeptical, following the conclusions of the
Rommel report that all mutilations are due to predators. He has
added a typically French 'socio-psychological' analysis, seeing
the Vietnam War as a cause of anguish which explains the growth
of the "myth" of alien mutilations!

This small, short book (142 pages) is a pure debunking job, and
I am stunned that it is known by an Argentine official. Could it
be that he has been tipped-off by some foreign agency ?


Regards,

Gildas Bourdais








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                         More 'Pancakes' For Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:50:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:45:15 -0400
Subject: More 'Pancakes' For Coleman


Re: http://www.anomalist.com/reports/pancakes.html

"Space Pancakes...A Fortean Breakfast Story"

I wonder if these Wisconsin "space pancakes" are still in United
States Air Force custody in Ohio?

----------
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:23:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Wagner <poetdreamerscholar@yahoo.com>
Subject: More Pancakes for Loren


 From the hiatusing George Wagner:

Loren, I don't remember if I ever told you this before, but I
once saw a quarter-sized fragment of one of Joe Simonton's
"space pancakes".

This was around 25 - 30 years ago. My younger brother and I
drove up to the United States Air Force Museum at Wright-
Patterson to see Glenn Miller's trombone.

Not far away from the Miller exhibit was another devoted to
1950s flying saucer contactees. Here was the "pancake" fragment,
behind plate glass, stapled (single staple) to a piece of white
cardboard.

The piece had a strikingly "honeycombed" appearance, nearly as
much air-holes as substance, but this may have been due to the
"outer space" food item drying out over the years. I really
didn't have much experience at studying 15 to 20-year-old
pancakes! (*) (My Mother's merely LOOKED that that.)

(*) Now, of course, I have three trunks full.


Sincerely,

George Wagner
gwagneroldtimeradio@yahoo.com








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   Jun > Jun 28

                 Argentine Livestock Ministry Found Nothing

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:16:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:47:58 -0400
Subject: Argentine Livestock Ministry Found Nothing


SOURCE: Diario Uno
DATE: 06-28-02

Livestock Ministry Found Nothing "Abnormal"

A specialist from the Provincial Management said the animal
presents signs common to a carrion bird attack.


By JOSE BORDA. UNO correspondent

GENERAL ALVEAR  The technical secretary of the Provincial Office
of Livestock, Eduardo Maldini, after visiting the La Daiana
field in Corral de Lorca and seeing the dead Aberdeen Angus calf
found nine days ago, that he found nothing abnormal about the
animal's carcass beyond what normally occurs in an animal death.
"I found nothing strange," stressed the official to UNO, adding
that he saw "things that are common in a dead animal following a
carrion bird attack." He explained that this type of bird had
eaten the eyes, anus and  mouth of another calf approximately
one year ago. "Its only logical that there should be no soft
tissue left, not even the tongue," he detailed. Regarding the
hide, he stated that parts of it were scattered around the
animal and there were even remnants of fecal matter from other
animals.

Maldini said there was no need for samples, since "there is no
point to sampling, because if we wished to diagnose an
infectious/contagious disease, only a few hours would have had
to elapse from the animal's death, which did not occur in this
case, since [the death] occured some days ago."









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                 Argentine Animals Dying "From Malnutrition"

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:05:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:52:39 -0400
Subject: Argentine Animals Dying "From Malnutrition"


SOURCE: Diario La Verdad (Buenos Aires)
DATE: 06.28.02

EXPERTS SAY MUTES DYING "FROM  MALNUTRITION"

LA PLATA (DIB) - No more talk of aliens, goatsuckers or ghosts.

A report from the Universidad Nacional del Centro at Tandil
contains a scientific explanation regarding strange bovine
deaths in the provinces of Buenos Aires, Santa Fe, La Pampa and
Rio Negro.

The document states that the animals died due to a lack of food
and their soft tissue was consumed by rodents and other carrion
animals post mortem.

The School of Veterinary Medicine of Universidad del Centro
studied 13 cases involving dead and mutilated bovines in recent
days.

Four of these animals were found laying in fields less than 48
hours after dying.

The results  of tests on this group of bovines shed greater
light: within the animals' remains and around their carcasses,
researchers discovered fecal matter from rodents and other
animals.

The mutilation cuts and wounds had clear rodent tooth marks - the
report explains that the cauterizing effect that caused so many
theories over the days is caused as dead animal's flesh is
exposed over time.

The study promotes the belief that the animals died from their
own weakness; analyses indicated that the animals were
malnourished and showed Magnesium deficiencies, with the
presence of parasites and metabolic shortcomings.

The poor nutrition from the harsh winter pastures, and the
climactic severity of recent days, would have brought about
their deaths.

Experts also account for the proliferation of rodents: they
claim that the large amounts of mice are a result of new
agricultural production methods, such as direct cultivation, for
example. This method keeps chaff on the field's surface and
provides an ideal habitat for these animals.

The report, which has already been forwarded to the government
of Buenos Aires, the national government and SENASA - which
requested the study - bears the signature of the Dean of the
Faculty of Veterinary Medicine of UniCen, Alejandro Soraci, but
was performed by an investigative team from said Faculty.

Researchers also found blood and other liquids near the dead
animals, and were further able to trap rodents which are being
analyzed.

The dead animals came from fields near General Dorrego, Tres
Arroyos and Tandil.

As a refutation of the rural legends which arose due to the
multiplication of animal deaths throughout the territory, the
University's document dismissed the presence of radiation near
the mutilated carcasses, and also explained the absence of
tracks in early cases since the carcasses were found many days
after their deaths occurred.

Over a hundred animals were found mutilated within two months in
pasture fields of Buenos Aires, Rio Negro, La Pampa and Santa
Fe.

The similarity in the incisions, coupled to the lack of blood
and tracks, gave rise to irrational conjectures, such as
attributing the mutilations to extraterrestrial practices.

Soon after the dead animal phenomenon was unleashed, there was a
confrontation between the scientific and popular beliefs, with a
slight preference for the latter, at least among rural dwellers.

Now, the university assures that there is a rational explanation
for the cases. (DIB).

=================================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.







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   Jun > Jun 28

                Mutilated Boar & Strange Lights In Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:53:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:55:39 -0400
Subject: Mutilated Boar & Strange Lights In Argentina



SOURCE: Diario La Nueva Provincia (Bahia Blanca, Argentina)
DATE: Thursday, June 27, 2002

Wild Boar Is Added To The List Of Cows, Horses, Sheep And A
Guanaco

**Wild animals are also experiencing strange mutilations**

The case is suggestive, because wild boar are highly distrustful
and detect--through their sharp olfactory system--the presence
of strangers. On this occasion, an eight month old boar was
mutilated. This is the second instance of a wild animal being
mutilated since the appearance of a mutilated guanaco in Chubut.

While the mutilation count is now reaching 170 and the cases
recorded extend to nine Argentinean provinces, a new ingredient
has been added to the phenomenon: the discovery  in Rio Colorado
of a wild boar carcass showing strange incisions. This is the
6th species hit by the phenomenon, since the mutilated remains
of cows, horses, sheep, pigs and even a guanaco (in the province
of Chubut) have been found.

Cattleman Nestor Soule, owner of a rural property some 55 km
from Rio Colorado, in the Department of Pichimahuida, found the
boar speciment last Sunday near a gully. The animal, he
explained, had geometrically perfect incisions and was missing
the anus, tongue and jaw. To the surprise of the rancher and the
farmhand escorting him, the animal was still soft in spite of
the -14 C temperature marked by the thermometer.

"It's impossible that an animal could remain in this condition
after dead and after the cold, but I was surprised not to find
any tracks nearby," said Soule, who is aware of the "map"
presented by the animals and the varying forms and conditions of
the pasture surface. The rancher chose not to file a police
report, but did put the boar carcass in his pickup truck to show
his neighbor. He later left it in the wilderness.

"Due to its traits, a boar is an animal that is able to smell
any living creature a quite a distance, even thought [the boar]
may be young....this is why it flees at the slightest sign of
any peril," Soule explained. The rancher thus made clear why
this case is so fascinating and different to the ones involving
breeding animals. "I'm not a researcher or anything similar, and
that's why I don't know what to say, but this is strange and I
never saw anything like it before."

**In La Pampa**

The carcass of an Aberdeen Angus bovine missing parts of its
body were found last weekend in a field located 2 km from the
town of Embajador Martini, province of La Pampa.

The professionals who analyzed the case verified that it was
missing part of its tongue and mammary glands, and that its left
maxillary had been sectioned off. A mysterious situation also
occured to the north of the Pampan town of  Rancul at the "Los
Caldenes" ranch, where a cow had died of natural causes in the
afternoon only to be found with incisions on its jaw and missing
its tongue the next day. The province of Entre Rios has also the
epicenter of these events: in a field located 2 km from Rt.11, a
rancher found a 170 kg heifer and a 500 kg. milk cow some 800
meters from each other, both presenting the notorious incision
marks.

**In Carhue**

Cases involving strange animal deaths are still a subject for
discussion in this city given the fact that mutilations continue
to appear day after day for unknown reasons. The discoveries
made by veterinarian Fernando Lopez are complemented by those of
his colleague, Horacio Volpe. Last week, the professional was
summoned by the owner of a rural property located 25km from
Carhue--no personal information mentioned for privacy reasons--
where an 8-9 month calf showing the trademark incisions recorded
in the area had been found.

The professional noted that his attention was drawn by the
perfect incisions, the flacidness of the animal --"which seemed
recently dead," he noted -- and the absence of blood.

While Volpe preferred not to hazard a theory, he pointed out
that an employee of the property told him that his brother, who
was cultivating during the night, "saw some intense red lights,
as though from a laser, moving very quickly across the
countryside."

Veterinarian Omar Fernando Lopez also observed a new case in a
rural establishment close to this city: it involved a pregnant
cow found in the fields of Juan Carlos Robilotte, showing the
same incisions, with the difference that the cow was about to
give birth. "There was a circle [on the left flank, above the
udder] through wihch half of the calf's body was protruding, but
I couldn't ascertain if there were any lesions, since it was in
an advanced state of decomposition."

* A Racehorse *

A racehorse belonging to the Quarter Horse breed, belonging to
stables near the Rio Negran town of Choele Choel, was found dead
with strange mutilations. "It was as though it had been hollowed
out from within," reported police sources in describing the stud
horse, of considerable economic value.

Veterinarian Carlos Montobbio, who certified the case, reported
that the horse was missing an eye and part of its tongue, but no
incisions on the maxillary had been performed. It had also been
castrated and a significant part of its small intestine and
rectum had been removed. The expert dismissed the possibility of
an atatck by "yellow-jacket" wasps: "the surgical incisions
presented by the animals cannot be made by insects," said
Montobbio.

**Lights Over Carhue**

Several residents claimed to have seen strange lights allegedly
related to the presence of UFOs. Manuel Alesso and Raul Blengio,
two rural livestockers owning property in the Paraje Cilley
area, 10 km from Carhue, saw these lights in the same way as did
other witnesses from different parts of Buenos Aires province.
"Between 7:30 and 8 p.m., I was touring the fields of Arroyo
Venado when I saw two lights to the northeast," said Alesso.  He
added that he stopped his pickup truck and flashed his
headlights at the lights. "The light began to shine even
brighter and seemed to descend, which is why I went over to
where Raul (Blengio) was planting and asked him to look. The
lights were white, round and gave off a sort of haze," he noted.
He said that behind the light there was another less shiny one.

Raul Blengio added that the lights moved slowly: "The weren't
stars...they were strange moving lights," explained Alesso,
while adding that a third witness accompanying them also saw the
lights."I'm certain they have something to do with the cattle
mutlations," he added.

Carolina Montenegro, a young Carhuensan about to graduate with a
devgree in Business Administration, spoke of having a similar
experience: "On Friday night, around nine, I was in the
countryside and to my surprise I saw a small light, orange in
color and smaller than a star, and at the height of  said lights
there were no other stars to be seen. As I watched, the light
changed colors from orange to red, then to green and then back
to orange until after 5 minutes it became smaller and vanished."

=======================================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Proyecto CATENT.







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               Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 -

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:15:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:01:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160 -


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:20:30 +0200

 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:23:26 -0400
 >>Subject: Argentine Cattle Mutilation Cases Now 160

<snip>

 >I suspect that the translator's work is in error.

<snip>

Dear Gildas,

I will promptly hit myself over the head with a golf club, since
I am the translator in question :-)

I was unaware that any other book of note on mutilations had
come out of France, so I assumed it would be Le Grand Carnage,
which in my opinion is still the best book on mutilations, bar
none.

However I will do my best to secure a copy of Yann Mege's 'Les
Chirurgiens Furtifs' for my collection, despite the obvious
shortcomings you mention. As to where Can=E9 heard of it, or
indeed secured a copy of it, I don't know.


Many thanks for the information,

Scott Corrales





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   Jun > Jun 28

                NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:45:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:17:17 -0400
Subject: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race


Another interesting US government document which is now online.

Source: U.S. Department Of State

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/kennedyjf/ol/xxv/6023.htm

The item is found at the bottom of the webpage.

Stig

***

<snip>


383. Memorandum From Maxwell W. Hunter II of the National
Aeronautics and Space Council to Robert F. Packard of the Office
of International Scientific Affairs/1/

Washington, July 18, 1963.

/1/Source: National Archives and Records Administration, RG 59,
Central Files 1960-63, SP 16. Official Use Only.

SUBJECT
Thoughts on the Space Alien Race Question

During recent discussions the question has occasionally, though
rarely, arisen that perhaps we should consider the policy
question of what to do if an alien intelligence is discovered in
space. Some discussion of this occurred, as you will recall,
during deliberations on BNSP Task I. This memo contains some
miscellaneous thoughts on the question.

The consensus of scientific view says, with quite good reasons,
that the possibility of running across an alien intelligent race
in our solar system is negligible. This is due primarily to the
presumed unsuitability of conditions upon other planets to
support life as we know it. The flying saucer advocates claim,
of course, that the scientific viewpoint is nonsense, and that
there is overwhelming evidence of such beings. In my own mind, I
find it difficult to side with the flying saucer advocates, but
the almost total impossibility envisioned by most scientists
also is disturbing. Therefore, I present the problem in current
perspective, as I see it.

Up until a few decades ago it seemed very improbable that
intelligent life existed anywhere outside of the solar system.
The chief reasons for this were a combination of scientific
theory, scientific knowledge, and religious belief. The most
widely accepted scientific theory as to the formation of the
solar planetary system held that it was a result of the near
collision of two stars. Since such a precise near-miss of two
stars would be an extremely rare event, it followed that there
would be very few other planetary systems in the universe and,
indeed, perhaps this was the only one. Religious belief said,
furthermore, that life was a gift bestowed by God. This was a
relatively undisputed point since no scientific data existed to
bridge the gap between non-living and living materials.

The situation today is vastly changed in these respects. The
most widely held theory of stellar formation would predict the
formation of planetary systems to be a natural consequence of
stellar evolution. On this basis, most stars would possess
planetary systems, and the number of habitable planets in our
galaxy would be tremendous. Our biggest telescopes cannot
resolve planets at the distances even of the nearest stars, so
no direct confirmation is yet available. In my own mind,
however, the wide prevalence of multiple stars is an
overwhelming hint in support of this theory. In addition, the
biological sciences have almost completely traced a series of
natural occurrences which lead from inanimate molecules to
elementary living viruses. Thus, we have the current scientific
theory and data not only that there are a huge number of planets
in the galaxy, but that life is quite likely to arise
spontaneously on a large number of these. This, of course, does
not necessarily imply intelligent life. Modern theology is not
necessarily incompatible with this. The description in Genesis
of the Creation certainly is a better picture of the current
theory than of a stellar collision, and since God only spent
seven days on this system, He has clearly had lots of time to
create many more systems.

Even granting a probable existence of much life in the galaxy,
there is still the question of whether another intelligent race
exists in our solar system. There are, of course, two methods of
its establishment in our system. One of these is that it
originated on some other planet, for instance, Mars. Some of the
spectacular markings of Mars have been interpreted as indicating
intelligence. In particular, the famous "Canali" are rather
narrow, and always run from one prominent marking to another,
frequently with round splotches at intersections. As far as I
know, no one has discovered a "Canali" which goes nowhere. This
has quite understandably stimulated much conversation. In fact,
a number of decades ago, when scientists thought that any life
on other stellar systems was very remote, they seemed to feel
that intelligent life probably existed on our other planets.
Some of the discussions about life on Mars at the turn of the
century seem to indicate a strong urge to want to find
intelligent life elsewhere. Today, the situation is completely
reversed, and although intelligent life is considered quite
probable among the stars, it is held to be quite unlikely within
the solar system. We seem more eager to listen with Ozma than to
look closely at Canali.

One school of flying saucer advocates claims that the Martians
have been mining our moon for natural resources for some time.
At first thought, one would think they would rather mine earth.
It is interesting to speculate, however, upon space flight from
the point of view of a Martian. The escape speed of Mars is only
16,500 fps, and, of course, braking speed on our moon is less
than 10,000 fps. Thus, Martians looking at earth would tend to
view it the same way Terrestrials look at Jupiter. Our moon
might not be less work to get to, since atmospheric braking to
earth is possible, but would be very much easier to return from,
while the energy requirements to go to and return from the
surface of the earth might well be so high as to discourage
interest, at least initially. Interestingly enough, even a
normal high energy chemical rocket could make a trip from Mars
to our moon at favorable times while carrying almost 10% of its
gross weight in payload. Space flight starting from Mars, then,
is a much easier prospect than starting from Terra. If a
suitable refueling base had been painfully established on our
moon, the operation could be done quite commendably with merely
chemical energy. (The aforementioned high energy chemical rocket
could carry at favorable times almost 50% payload back to Mars.)
Of course, many flying saucer advocates claim that the discovery
of both Martian moons within a week in the latter part of the
Nineteenth Century indicates that they are large artificial
space stations, otherwise they would have been found earlier. If
we were to discover Martians on the moon, it would result in
surprisingly little readjustment of our scientific thinking. The
biggest question would be why they were there rather than among
the Asteroids.

In fact, if we were not as scientifically sure of ourselves as
we are, three recent events would be hailed as broad hints of
intelligent life on the moon. (1) The discovery of hot gasses
emanating from the crater Alphonsus when the moon was supposedly
dead. This would be considered evidence of civilization and,
since Alphonsus is close to the visible edge, interpreted to
mean that the other side of the moon was teeming with population
which had begun to spill around to this side. (2) The infra-red
scans which show hot spots. These would be interpreted as
indications of cities or at least mining camps. (3) The fact
that no lunar or planetary probe of significance has been
successful, in spite of major efforts on the part of two very
successful earth orbitfaring nations. It would be supposed that
someone was denying us deep space. (The other-side-of-the-moon
pictures from Lunik III show no details of consequence, and the
same can be said of the data from Mariner II compared to what we
had already known about Venus from earth-based measurements.)
Should the Martians have colonized the moon without discovering
nuclear energy, then they represent no real problem, and our
current national policy would be made to order for the
situation. If all of this were true, of course, I would expect
the Martians to be scared to death of what they have seen
recently on this planet, and would expect that the highest
priority development program in the solar system is being
conducted by the Atomic Energy Commission of Mars.

Even if we are secure in our belief that intelligent life never
would develop on Mars or some other solar planet, there is still
the question of visitors to the solar system from other stellar
systems. This is normally written off as an extremely low
probability, due to the tremendous distances between stars, and
the Einstein limitation on travel faster than the speed of
light. Therefore, even if there are a large number of
intelligent life forms in the galaxy, and even if they are
continuously searching for other races, the frequency of
investigation of any stellar system would be only once in many
thousands of years and contact would rarely, if ever, be
achieved. It might never be achieved, since presumably
intelligent races die out. (What happened to the planet whose
pieces now are spread around the Asteroid Belt? Or, for that
matter, why is Uranus lying on its side?) I am not sure that
this travel restriction is quite as infallible as it sounds. I
believe that it is possible with what we now know about nuclear
energy to envision ships driven at half to three-quarters of the
speed of light. This, since the galaxy is 100,000 light-years
across, still does not make a search of the entire galaxy
feasible within the life span of the average man. But suppose
some race under pressure of population explosion were expanding
as fast as technically feasible from star to star throughout the
galaxy. If their ships averaged half the speed of light, and if,
on the average, they stopped every 10 light-years for a twenty-
year stay at a stellar system to deposit colonists, refuel, and
build extra ships, they would only take two hundred thousand
years, starting at the center of the galaxy, to spread
throughout the whole system. Since the earliest known remains of
man have recently been dated at approximately one million seven
hundred thousand years, a sustained drive for merely two hundred
thousand years may not be unreasonable. Of course, if we were to
run across representatives of this kind of interstellar race,
they would not be nearly as tame as the previously hypothesized
chemical Martians, and our policy would need to be revised
accordingly. Fortunately, travel time restrictions would inhibit
their ability to bring all forces to bear, in case we should
develop differences of viewpoint.

The third possibility, scientifically abhorrent, is that the
Einstein theory may only be an approximation, and an alien race
which actually travels faster than light exists. If we were to
meet such a race, our policy had better be to negotiate fast,
because the implications of their far better understanding and
control of the fundamental forces of nature would be obvious. If
all the scientific speculation were to turn out wrong and we
were to stumble across an alien race, we would want to know as
quickly as possible which of the three types I have indicated it
was, as our diplomatic policy would damned well be influenced by
the results.

Conclusions

Although all plausible scientific thinking suggests that we will
not find any other intelligence race, the probability that we
will is finite, and perhaps should not be completely ignored.
Were we to find one, the question of whether it was a race with
primitive chemical space flight, space flight equivalent to our
best understanding of nuclear energy, or space flight based on
physics beyond Einstein should be ascertained as rapidly as
possible, since our policies would be affected in the most
drastically possible way. In any event, a policy of the
immediate burying of all Terrestrial hatchets would likely be in
order. Even if we only found tame chemical Martians, or merely
the debris from some intragalactic survey mission, it would be a
good idea to proceed on the assumption that the human race would
finally have found a bigger problem than the ones it has created
for itself. There likely is nothing to be done at the moment to
prepare for these possibilities (the only body of writing on the
subject available in an emergency is science fiction), because
no one of consequence is going to take this rubbish seriously
unless it happens. At that point, our policy will be determined
in the traditional manner of grand panic.

Maxwell W. Hunter, II








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   Jun > Jun 28

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:57:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:22:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:48:28 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

<snip>

 >However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
 >assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
 >miles away:

 >(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
 >minute flight."

 >That would have put Flight 4 somewhere in southwest Kansas, not
 >the Foster ranch. Where did you get the idea that Moore's
 >analysis somehow proved that the balloons came down within 17
 >miles of the ranch?


Hi David, Bruce:

David goes on and on and on about his variables, assumptions,
mentions neightboring states, if this and that had been different.

The problem with all of this is that no balloon train debris were
found in Kansas, but something very similar was found on the
Foster Ranch.


Ta, ta...

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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              Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:33:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:02:09 -0400
Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:31:56 +0200
 >Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >The link to the text below refers to the book's own site.

 >http://res.krasu.ru/liq_ufo/ann_eng.htm

 >The author, Pavel Poluyan, has just been interviewed on
 >PRAVDA.ru. The link and the first part is available at the end
 >of this mail.

 >Stig

 >***

 >Liquidation of the UFO

 >In the book "Liquidation of the UFO", the Krasnoyarsk researcher
 >Pavel Poluyan nominates and specifically proves a version of
 >war- industry origin of "flying discs", based on the thorough
 >analysis of the problem of the UFOs. Pavel Poluyan proves that
 >the explanation of their flight doesn't need any exotic theory.
 >The author of the book explains the principle, which is used by
 >"flying discs" to create the carrying capacity: the difference
 >of forces of any resistance, which occurs in uneven oscillation
 >of cup-like and ellipsoidal forms in gaseous medium. This is the
 >aerodynamic effect. It is shown, that during the UW frequences
 >of vibration and overless amplitudes there are oscillation of
 >difference of forces of any air resistance enough for upward
 >flight and movement.

<snip>

Right. So, how does this fellow explain right angle turns at
thousands of miles an hour? Or flight out of the atmosphere? Or
the UFO that circled and 'beamed' that warhead off the west
coast? Or alien encounters and abductions? Or the consistent
killing of electrical systems near UFO sightings, and even
disablement and discharge of batteries where they have landed?
Or cause the earth where they have landed to be sterile for long
periods? Or instant disappearances/reappearances? Or that
abductee who had his boat abducted along with him, which
equipped with a recording GPS showed the boat tracked over LAND?

A "vibrating hard parachute" can do all that? Or even some of
that?

Right.


Eleanor White








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                         Mexican Pyramid Sightings?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:51:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:51:37 -0400
Subject: Mexican Pyramid Sightings?


The following is from a non-subscriber and I'd like to keep their
address private:


"I wonder if you can help me. I am interested in contacting an
organization or person who has kept track of sightings in Mexico,
specifically as related to the pyramid sites there.  Do you know
anybody who has done/is doing this?"


They'll read any responses at the Archive.

Thanks,


ebk







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              Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:19:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:12:03 -0400
Subject: Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:45:49 +0200
 >Subject: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race Question'

 >Another interesting US government document which is now online.

 >Source: U.S. Department Of State

 >http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/kennedyjf/ol/xxv/6023.htm

 >The item is found at the bottom of the webpage.

<snip>

Mr. Agermose -- you've been forwarding these ufological tid-bits
to us for years. It occurred to me that you may have some
comments, observations, asides, or summations to share regarding
them all in their entirety... an overview if you like...

Any thoughts to share? Feelings? Suspicions? Views? I would be
very interested, and I'm sure many others would be, also. Thanks
in advance.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                          Breakout Of The Fictions

From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:14:16 -0400
Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions


Breakout Of The Fictions

As a newcomer to the List, I thought I might offer a new idea.

On re-reading Borges=92 short story Tl=F6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius,
it occurred to me that there might be something of genuine MJ12
interest in this curious tale. Though according to Andre
Maurois, Borges wrote the first version of his story in 1940, it
first appeared in the Argentinean Spanish-language publication
Ficciones in 1945. It is odd than no MJ12 researcher appears to
have noticed this work. It outlines no less the complete body of
the MJ12 story, and was written significantly within that
stretch of years representing the formative middle-ranking
period and accelerated wartime promotions of the significant top
players of MJ12.

Since a great planetary war was raging, intellectual life and
literature and the arts had come almost to a stop, and therefore
what little literary activity there was (particularly of the
avant guard type) existed in the form of very few magazines,
often of an A5 size, such as the British Lilliput and Men Only
(this latter has no connection to its modern equivalent!) that
could be carried in the map pocket of a military uniform. Short
stories and short articles were all that existed practically for
contemporary intellectual food, received and absorbed as it was
under often very strenuous work and battle conditions It is
possible therefore that Borges=92 original story was sought out in
these conditions by very small elite groups such as those who
worked on the Manhattan Project. It can easily be imagined for
example, that the main high-level high-IQ figures around
Oppenheimer (including Teller, Fermi etc) reading at least the
earliest version of Tl=F6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. Richard Feynman
for one, would have loved it. The Los Alamos staff in particular
would hardly been able to avoid Spanish-American culture.
Needing intellectual food in their mental and physical isolation
they would in all likelihood have sought it from such
Argentinean writers as Borges whose country was hardly affected
physically by war, and whose publishing and printing houses
still had time, inclination, and materials for such luxuries as
free literary expression

Of all writers Borges is the most difficult to summarise. I have
attempted such a sacrilege to give only the briefest outline of
Tl=F6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. Those who wish to read the whole
amazing story can find it in the Penguin Modern Classics edition
entitled Labyrinths.

The story begins with Borges=92 friend Bioy Casares, remarking to
Borges that mirrors have =93something monstrous about them=94. He
adds that he remembers a quotation declaring that both =93mirrors
and copulation are abominable, because they increase the number
of men=94. Borges asks Casares about the source of this remarkable
thought, and Casares says that he remembers it from the Anglo
American Cyclopedia (sic) that attributed the statement to one
of the heresiarchs of Uqbar (pronounce erkbar as in Ur-text).
This being a country neither Borges nor Casares can remember
ever have heard of, the pair decide to trace the exact source of
the quotation. But despite both men being expert researchers and
dedicated fanatical litt=E9rateurs, Uqbar cannot be traced in
standard editions of the Anglo American Cyclopedia. A name such
as Uqbar should appear phonetically in the XLVI volume of the
Cyclopedia, but there is no trace of it there.

The following day Casares calls Borges from Argentina and says
that he has made a truly remarkable discovery. He has in his
hands a XLVI volume of the Cyclopedia, but this volume has 921
pages and not the usual 917! These extra pages describe the
country of Uqbar, and Borges has in his hands a =93vast methodical
fragment of an unknown planet=92s entire history=94. But this is a
very different universe. Its geometry is quite different from
the ones we know, just as is its use of metaphor and
mathematical logic.

These few pages hint that they are drawn from some complete
encyclopedia consisting of many volumes.

Years later, Borges has the good fortune to come across a single
volume of this vast work. This is A First Encyclopedia of Tl=F6n,
Vol. XI. Hlaer to Jangr. Tl=F6n (pronounced as the =93o=94 in =93nose=94)
is the planet on which Uqbar in located. In Volume XI there are
allusions to preceding and succeeding volumes, as well as a much
more detailed description of the land of Uqbar and culture and
inhabitants. These other volumes have never been found, despite
Borges and his colleagues upending =93the libraries of the two
Americas and Europe=94.

But at this point in the story, all appears to be explained.
Borges discovers that the partial and fragmentary texts are the
work of a secret cabal of scholars whose forgeries have been
carefully built over hundreds of years by generations of
dedicated and specially chosen disciples. These scholars have
left fragmentary footprints of their terrifyingly detailed
labours in sole support of the idea that only the utterly
astounding is in any sense =93real=94. This singular binding idea of
Tl=F6n culture supports both morals and mathematics, and the view
that metaphysics is a branch of fantastic literature.

But to what point, other than demonstrating an entertaining (but
a little precious) cleverness as regards the theory of
literature and imagination?

Borges continues his tale. He tells of the purchase by a certain
Princess Faucigny of a strange compass whose needle =93longs for
magnetic north=94 but will not point in such a direction. Around
the concave (!) metal case is inscribed the alphabet of Tl=F6n.
Some months later, he comes across a small metal cone dropped by
a dying drunk outside a primitive lodging. This cone is
impossibly heavy, and such cones in the =93fictional=94 country of
Tl=F6n are =93images of the divinity in certain regions of Tl=F6n=94.

Both the extraordinary compass and the super-dense cone are
breakthroughs in part of the world of Tl=F6n, appearing appearing
in our own world just as certainly as a foot is put through a
faulty floor. Borges finds himself in the middle of an
interpenetration of worlds, the kind of thing which we are now
gingerly approaching legitimately by tentatively rehearsing such
ideas as =93quantum entanglement=94.

Of course it follows that once the hair-line cracks appear,
greater penetration follows. Borges continues his story by
saying that =93around 1944=94 a researcher for the newspaper The
American eventually brought to light in a Memphis library the
forty volumes of the First Encyclopedia of Tl=F6n. In these
(obviously later) volumes, the fantastic aspects of the previous
descriptions of Tl=F6n culture have been toned down somewhat. =93It
is reasonable to imagine=94, says Borges =93that these omissions
follow the plan of exhibiting a world which is not too
incompatible=94 with that world we ourselves experience as =93real=94.
Suitable modified and re-designed, effective seeding of the
interpenetrating world of Tl=F6n does indeed take place: =93=85the
international press infinitely proclaimed the =91find=92. Manuals,
anthologies, summaries, literal versions, authorized re-editions
and pirated editions flooded and still flood the earth. Almost
immediately reality yielded on more than one account. The truth
is that it longed to yield.=94

Borges concludes by giving us nothing less than the theory of
conspiracy theory brought to its ultimate conclusion and summed
to infinity. Already he says, the history of Tl=F6n has wiped out
the history of his childhood: Perhaps, for the invasion of Tl=F6n
we may read ufology=92s progress through Adamski via von Daniken
to Area 51, complete with the equivalent to elliptical
compasses, super-heavy cones, in terms of streams of
hieroglyphics on Roswell debris, and very strange crash-
retrieval manuscripts arriving from nowhere: =93=85a fictitious past
occupies in our memories the place of another, a past of which
we know nothing with certainty =96 not even that it is false=94.

His punchline is an anticipation of both the formation of MJ12
and Eisenhower=92s early warning (in his retirement speech)
warning about the power of scientific elites. Borges says =93a
scattered dynasty of solitary men has changed the face of the
world. Their task continues=94. And sounding rather like Charles
Fort, he continues: =93If our forecasts are not in error a hundred
years from now someone will discover the hundred volumes of the
Second Encylopedia of Tl=F6n. Then English and French and mere
Spanish will disappear from the globe. The world will be Tl=F6n.=94

Already the =93alien=94 is breaking through in the manner of an
object from Tlon. Perhaps gung-ho alien base believers are not
right or wrong, but have gone too far too soon. The alien as
Tl=F6n artifact can only intrude first in a version that is
psychologically scaled down, such as the heavy cone, which is of
no use to anyone. Even the most conservative of scientists admit
that yes the alien is there, but is impossible to get at =96 they
exist millions of totally inaccessible light years away. Then,
as cultural time passes, the alien life form gets nearer: the
alien is now small, a bio-particle in the frozen waters of Mars.
As the metaphors expand further (and metaphors are the purest
form of show business) we (officially) prepare legal grounds
concerning alien rights. A the same time as we do this, we
prepare to demolish the space and time separating us by (at
first) teleporting a laser beam. Thus the very gradual approach
to the acceptance of the alien idea: we =93accept=94 covertly and
otherwise a series of scaled-down rehearsals in the manner of
the teleportations of Tl=F6n, of which the UFO could be just one.

Often we hear of the idea of a paradigm being operational in
human affairs. If we could put a paradigm under a microscope,
its interior structure would show up as linked metaphors that
can be looked upon as almost live information animals
themselves. The metaphors of Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius are
analogous with very possible line of development of ideas that
might just have appealed to the first-generation elitists of the
young military-industrial complex. The metaphors binding these
men together and the themes of Borges=92 story are very close. As
first-generation nuclear scientists that knew that in the heart
of the nuclear furnace input may or may not equal output.
Perhaps some of these men were of the opinion that the ideas of
fission and chain reaction with which they had played with so
long could possibly go into action as metaphors and produce the
kind of quantum interpenetration described by Borges.



The MJ12 group was a proud techno-aristocracy. Well-heeled and
over-protected, and presumably as fond of decadent games as is
every aristocracy. Could some of these socially isolated people,
over-endowed with brain (as was Borges), in a supremely decadent
moment, have cooked something up from this story? Inward
looking, and possibly in a state of shock after the most intense
five years any human could live through, they faced an immediate
post-war world that they did not understand, and moreover a
world that had taken their youth away, and given almost all of
them fatal cancers. As Eisenhower hinted, certainly Borges=92
ideas could have represented to them a kind of fantastic super-
science, the next quantum step as regards conceptions of Matter
and Idea, and there were as many forms of such things flying
around Los Alamos in the late forties as there were desert
flies. As Friedman and the Woods have so convincingly
demonstrated, the MJ12 papers show access to vintage top-secret
material. Is it possible that like the heresiarchs of Uqbar, the
elite of the military-industrial-complex attempted the
experiment of seeding powerful suggestions if only to sit back
and watch such new-born information animals attempt to clone
themselves, producing almost-appearances and almost-objects such
as the UFO?

And when they had done so, did they attempt unsuccessfully to
shut the pile down?







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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:27:26 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:50:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Friedman


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:57:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:48:28 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 ><snip>

 >>However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
 >>assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
 >>miles away:

 >>(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >>had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >>17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >>more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
 >>minute flight."

 >>That would have put Flight 4 somewhere in southwest Kansas, not
 >>the Foster ranch. Where did you get the idea that Moore's
 >>analysis somehow proved that the balloons came down within 17
 >>miles of the ranch?

 >David goes on and on and on about his variables, assumptions,
 >mentions neightboring states, if this and that had been different.

 >The problem with all of this is that no balloon train debris were
 >found in Kansas, but something very similar was found on the
 >Foster Ranch.

I almost burped my coffee reading Bob's silly comment based on
the old debunker dictum "Absence of Evidence is evidence for
absence".

Just how is it Bob or anybody else knows what was or was not
found East of the Foster Ranch? Ranchers found weather
balloons... that is what Mogul was, not those beautiful tear drop
shaped poly ones so loved by makers of pseudo-documentaries,
all the time. Trash.

In addition, there is nothing about the wreckage that Brazel,
and Marcel, dealt with, that matches the Mogul package at all.
No memory material, no I-beams that couldn't be broken or
burned, no strange symbols (except on Toy tape that nobody has
seen).

Lost in the shuffle here is yet another reminder that none of
the technology of Mogul was highly classified. If it was, the
balloon junk would have certainly been followed and recovered.

The practice of debunkery gets stranger and stranger all the
time.


Stan Friedman








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren

From: Larry Warren <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:48:24 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:59:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 04:33:57 +0100
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II

 >Regarding:

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:34 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Randle

<snip>

Hi Errol, List and James!

James my brother, I have read your reports on the case for
years, and find many of your views of interest.

Some would call you a debunker, however these same people tend
to do some of the same things that you are accused of. Sad thing
is that these guys claim to be on the pro-UFO side!

That said, give me a few days to go over your post on the
case and I promise I will answer the questions that you have
asked.

You may not like some of the answers, and may find other info I
include of interest I just ask that in future, please keep my
text as I write it, if you choose to re-publish it.

Just a short one for today.....

The transcript of Bustinza and Battram in Laeg, is exactly as
Larry Faucett sent it to Peter Robbins in the early 1990s, we
did not edit any thing that a researcher provided us with.

As for the phone calls that were later transcribed by barry
greenwood, of the recolections of both Busty and Greg, I have
both tapes.

They do contain a bit more info. Sadly, I did not re-locate
the tapes until after our book came out.

The Bustinza tape alone destroys much of the alledged
perspective of the above in a certain nasty piece of work
published in the uk last year.

Jim, give me a few days! Cheers!


Larry Warren

Lets loose the frauds header ok, as I am not.








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                          Secrecy News -- 06/28/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:28:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:03:13 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 06/28/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 59
June 28, 2002


**      REPORTS ON MISSILE DEFENSE TESTS MANDATED
**      NEW RESOURCES ONLINE


REPORTS ON MISSILE DEFENSE TESTS MANDATED

The Senate yesterday responded to the Defense Department
decision to classify information about future missile defense
flight tests by requiring the Pentagon to provide a "thorough"
report to Congress on each test in both classified and
unclassified form.

"One can argue whether [the new secrecy policy] is truly needed,
since we are many years away from deployment of effective
national missile defense systems," said Senator Carl Levin,
chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

"What is not arguable is that Congress has a right and
obligation to know the results of such critical tests,
regardless of whether they are classified," Sen. Levin said.

"[Previous] criticism -- particularly by the scientific
community -- led the Missile Defense Agency to adopt a much more
realistic, thorough, and exhaustive test process for our missile
defense system," observed Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI), who co-
sponsored the new reporting requirement. "That criticism, in
effect, has been very helpful to the development of the national
missile defense. I think it is something that should be
encouraged -- certainly not discouraged."

See this excerpt from yesterday's Senate debate on the 2003
Defense Authorization Act:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/h062702.html


NEW RESOURCES ONLINE

Compilations of past judicial rulings in Freedom of Information
Act cases are gradually being published by the Justice
Department Office of Information and Privacy, including this set
of decisions from 1996 that was published today:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2002foiapost14.htm

The General Accounting Office has published a June 26 report
entitled "Defense Space Activities: Status of Reorganization"
that provides a snapshot of the latest upheavals in military
space programs. See:

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/gao/gao02772r.pdf

This week the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee held two
hearings on "The Relationship Between a Department of Homeland
Security and the Intelligence Community." Prepared statements
presented by governmental and non-governmental witnesses are
available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/index.html#hs2

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/index.html#hs3


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                         Re: Reed UFO Fraud - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:48:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:05:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Reed UFO Fraud - Myers


UFOWATCHDOG.COM's on-site Seattle investigation into one of the most
infamous and damaging UFO frauds.  The truth is only the beginning...

Coming soon...

Double Exposure

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/doublex.html








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                         'The Scotsman' On Abduction

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 05:56:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:17:06 -0400
Subject: 'The Scotsman' On Abduction


Source: The Scotsman

http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=3D698882002

Stig

***

Sat 29 Jun 2002

**

Taken in

Jonathan Ledgard

*

I am Aerial Tellurian (not my real name, the one given me by
Outlander). I am 45, single, and I reside in the Panhandle of
Florida. Since the age of ten, I have been visited by an alien
called Outlander from Regulus - which is 67.0 light years away
from our solar system."

According to believers, Aerial is just one of two million
Americans who have been abducted by aliens. Most of them report
having been raped or otherwise interfered with aboard orbiting
spaceships. Few abductees report these violations to federal
law-enforcement agencies; they believe the government is in on
the alien actions. Why else, they ask, do unmarked black
helicopters flit about America, keeping track of their
movements?

Aerial, alas, has not been spared the abuse, as she reports in a
diary she posts on the internet. Here is her entry for 28
February this year:

"This is my last entry for February, a whole month of keeping
this online journal. I reread it and determined a pattern of
doubt, followed closely by trusting Outlander again. Perhaps his
very nearness, and the implant I must have, creates this trust.
But I know of no way to stay suspicious unless I could get away
from him entirely and that's not possible while I'm pregnant. I
need the pre-natal care the aliens are giving me aboard the
mothership. My pregnancy will only be three months, instead of
the normal nine months of a human pregnancy. That means our
hybrid baby will be born some time in mid- May, a wonderful
springtime birth!"

Lately, Aerial's entries have become more muddled:

"Something horrible has happened during the past month. My baby
was born aboard the mothership - and taken from me! I was
returned home and kept captive for two weeks until I managed to
escape. I'm on the run now, and using cybercaf=E9s and public
libraries to update this journal. I can only do this because I
move on rapidly afterward, fearful for my life and that
Outlander will find me."

It is 55 years since a UFO crash-landed in the desert scrub
outside Roswell, New Mexico, and kick-started the alien
abduction movement. Most abductees see the Roswell incident as
tangible proof of the presence of aliens among us. But no
evidence has been uncovered and the American military
categorically denies the accounts of observers, such as Roswell
air-base intelligence officer Frank J. Kaufmann, who claim to
have seen the crash site. The craft was of unknown origin,
Kaufmann's account has it, shaped like a stingray, perhaps 28
feet long and 18 feet wide, pewter coloured, underlaid with
hexagonal cells pulsing orange, and with five small passengers,
pallid, not quite human, all of them dead. Intriguing,
certainly, but hardly conclusive enough to build an entirely new
world view on.

Fast-forward to 2002, a few hours' drive south of Roswell in a
desolate sweep of west Texas. I can just make out the mountains
in the south, a moon-yellowed jawbone marking the Mexican
border. The firmament above is breathtakingly clear, the
constellations like pieces of silver stitched into a billowing
cobalt sheet. A satellite (or is it?) grazes the stratosphere.
The mysterious Marfa lights, a few miles outside the small
ranching town of Marfa, bounce up and down a mile or so away,
like incandescent tennis balls. They break into two and three
separate lights, sometimes hovering above the desert floor,
sometimes racing about wildly. People come to this remote spot
from around the world to see this unexplained spookiness.

Scientists reckon there has to be a simple explanation for the
lights: static electricity, a quirk of geology, headlights of
distant cars refracted through the desert thermals. There are
plenty of unusual explanations too. In the 19th century, locals
believed the lights to be the spirit of Alsate, a local Apache
war chief. Then came talk of devils, and cowboy ghosts, and
military experiments. Nowadays, most people who come here
believe the lights manifest some alien connection. This is
fitting. Aliens have long since overtaken ghosts and demons in
the Western popular imagination. We are no longer haunted. We
are abducted.

Back in Marfa I slouch into a local bar. After a couple of hours
an offhand question about UFOs elicits a surprising response.
The demeanour of the taciturn cowboys I am shooting pool with
instantly changes. A couple of them speak of having seen
spaceships on their remote spreads (out here, ranches are 20
miles across and 30 miles from town). Two of them think they may
have been abducted. It could be a joke at my expense, but if so
these boys are fine actors. For where they have been gruff and
no-nonsense, they now appear withdrawn and vulnerable. They
speak haltingly, embarrassed, self-doubting, and when they
mention the word abduction, it as though they are talking of
childhood abuse. "This is what I remember," they say, pulling on
a beer, "but it ain't true."

Whatever the veracity of their particular stories, something is
clearly going on. People around the world - a disproportionate
number of them in the United States - say they have been
abducted. Some of them are seeking out psychiatrists and support
groups. An abductee movement is forming which challenges our
most basic understanding of the world. But abductees have not
brought forth a shred of physical evidence to support their
claims. Many are manifestly cranks or mentally ill; their
stories are moonshine. But other sincere and perfectly normal
folk risk their careers, their marriages, everything that is
valuable to them, to assert that they too have been abducted.
Why?

The unexplained is potent. It doesn't take much - a strange
light in the woods, the whispering of air in a still room - to
trigger the imagination. There have been sightings of
otherworldly beings through-out human history. Some believe
Elijah was swept up not by a fiery chariot but by a luminous
spaceship. Others state that the ancient monuments were erected
under the instruction of alien foremen. In 1758, a Swedish
scientist and religious figure, Emanuel Swedenborg, published a
"true account" of his travels to Mars. Swedenborg noted the
appearance of the aliens who abducted him (Danish) and their
mode of living (utopian). But it wasn't until the industrial
revolution filled the ether with electrical currents and radio
signals that the notion of aliens began to supplant angels and
ghosts. In 1898, H.G. Wells laid the ground rules of science
fiction with War of the Worlds. There was nothing subtle about
his view of aliens: they were monsters.

UFOs fully entered the public consciousness after Hiroshima. The
aliens doing the abducting were very different from H.G. Wells's
insectoid, amoral creatures intent only on mindless destruction.
The taxonomy of aliens of the atomic age was more complex:
reptilian, amphibian, robotic and spectral, but far more often
Nordic - like those who gave the first well-known abductee,
George Adamski, a tour of the solar system in 1952 - or so-
  called "greys" with the hairless aspect of rhino skin, and
swollen skulls inset with large, almond- shaped eyes.

Ask a child to draw an alien and you are bound to get a grey, or
at least a small weedy thing with a bulbous head somewhat
resembling Steven Spielberg's ET. Greys started abducting
Americans not long after artists developed them - or styrofoam
puppets which looked very much like them - for a 1975 made-for-
  television film called The UFO Incident. Some abductees accept
this connection but turn it back on itself. The artists, they
say, were merely recovering something that was already in their
subconscious: all of us have a faint memory of greys because we
were genetically engineered by them. If they were simply drawing
on American popular culture, believers point out, wouldn't
British abductees find themselves in a Tardis discussing cricket
with Dr Who? And how to explain sightings of three-foot aliens
with large black eyes, not unlike greys, in America in 1896, or
in England in 1901, Australia in 1925, and Spain in 1944?

In America, UFOs have become a new-age religion. Affable gurus
breezily predict aliens will soon be guiding mankind into "the
greater community of intelligent life". Aliens still hector us
on our follies; they fret about pollution and point a grey jelly
finger at the hole in the ozone layer. Some abductee groups even
blend science fiction with religious dogma: spaceships shall
obliterate the unclean while a chosen few will be swept up to
salvation. Thirty-nine members of the Heaven's Gate cult
infamously discarded their vehicles (that is, their bodies) in
the belief that their souls would be taken up to a spaceship
surfing the backwash of the Hale Bopp comet.

Other groups peddle conspiracy theories. They hold democratic
governments to be a front; real power rests with a secret world
order which does the bidding of aliens under pain of
annihilation. Those disposed to such theories cling to anything
that supports their case, like this odd aside from Lord Louis
Mountbatten, of all people: "The fact that [aliens] can hover
and accelerate away from the earth's gravity... shows they are
far ahead of us. If they come over in a big way, that may settle
the capitalist-communist war. If the human race wishes to
survive, it may have to band together."

For those abductees who are not UFO fanatics, abduction is an
involuntary and, by all accounts, painful experience. Dr John
Mack, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, argues
abduction is not a matter of belief but a clinical reality which
abductees usually try to deny and suppress. "Abductees do not
say it is possible," Mack told me, "they say it is true." His
investigations are thought-provoking, not least for the Harvard
establishment which has investigated and cleared him of the
charge of using shoddy scholarship. His first book on abductees,
Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens, remains a standard text
on the subject. "I'm not claiming that everyone I work with has
been taken into a spacecraft - it could be an astral body; the
point is that something powerful has happened to these people.
It may or may not have been in this material world. What is
certain is their experiences demand a more sophisticated
ontology than we have now, one that questions the whole way we
think about reality."

Mack outlines what most abductees feel happened to them. "They
feel themselves being removed from wherever they are. They float
through a wall or out of a car, carried up on this beam of light
into a craft and there are subjected to a number of now familiar
procedures which involve the beings staring at them and probing
their body orifices; and a complex process whereby they sense,
in the case of men, sperm being removed, in women, eggs being
removed; some sort of hybrid offspring is created which they're
brought back to see in later abductions."

Mack hotly rejects charges that he prompts his subjects to
invent abduction stories while under hypnosis. He says he
applies strict clinical criteria to his work. Still, for all his
undoubted brilliance, Mack's narrow focus can make him sound
suspect. "The experiencer," he writes, using the word he prefers
for abductees, "may at first call what is happening a dream. But
careful questioning will reveal that the experiencer has not
fallen asleep at all." Careful questioning or leading
questioning?

One of the most troubling facts about alien abduction is the
number of people who discovered they were taken only after being
regressed by hypnotists who accept the reality of alien
abduction. Whitley Strieber, the author of Communion, a best-
  selling account of abduction, falls into this category. But are
these abductees imagining spaceships in the way some others
imagine sex abuse? Is it really a coincidence that abduction is
far more common in countries like Brazil and the USA, where
hypnosis is used routinely by psychiatrists? Alvin Lawson, a
professor at California State University, has demonstrated the
power of suggestion under hypnosis by planting the idea of
abduction in his hypnotised subjects. The resulting stories
mirrored those of abductees.

"The abductee movement is confabulation," says Robert Baker, an
expert on hypnosis. "It's making up a good story to satisfy the
promptings of the hypnotist." Baker points out that most
abductions happen during sleep. He believes abductees are
actually suffering identifiable states of sleep disorder.
Hypnopompic hallucinations occur just before waking up and
hypnogogic hallucinations just after nodding off. Paralysis - a
common feature of abductee accounts - is a natural function of
sleep, as is the reported feeling of a heavy weight on the
chest. Baker also points out that these stories are not new;
medieval nuns sometimes reported waking to find a demon or
incubus on their chest, having sex with them.

Sex is standard fare in abductee accounts. Even Mack's
relatively sober case studies read like a series of sexual
fantasies: a woman is fondled by a grey with cool, steady hands,
a man has great sex with a silvery blonde Nordic alien in a pod.
But the pornographic element also helps explain the popularity
of the abduction movement on the internet by mixing successfully
with two other proven money-spinners: UFOs and therapy.

Once inside the abductee subculture, people feed off each other
with alarming credulity. This advice appeared recently on one
internet chat group:

"Yes, Gail, the reptilian aliens do rape. I have been raped by
them. If I ever feel they are about to come into or are in my
energy field, I put up a protective shield around myself.
Unfortunately, there is another type of reptilian we have
serious problems with - the reptoids. This group works in
conjunction with the human faction who abduct and interrogate. I
have not been able to stop this kind of abduction because this
group does not follow any Universal Law and can take us and
harass us at will."

David Hume laid out the most sensible approach for studying a
phenomenon like alien abduction. "No testimony is sufficient to
establish a miracle," Hume wrote, "unless the testimony be of
such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the
fact which it endeavours to establish." Which is more likely:
that we are abducted and molested by aliens in ever larger
numbers, or that the human mind gives birth to aliens as it once
gave birth to trolls, demons and fairies?

Yet no matter how we try to explain away these 'memories',
abductees still fully believe they have been taken up by aliens,
perhaps even given birth to a hybrid. Even if the aliens and the
abduction are imagined, sceptics say, clinical studies of
abductees can help further our understanding of the brain and
expand our sense of what it means to be terrestrial.

**

=A92002 scotsman.com






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   Jun > Jun 29

                 Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180' - Mortellaro Sr.

From: James Mortellaro, Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 01:14:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180' - Mortellaro Sr.


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:36:18 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'UFOs? I've seen 180'

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Source: BBCi

 >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2065000/2065037.stm

 >>Thursday, 27 June, 2002, 13:13 GMT 14:13 UK

 >>'UFOs? I've seen 180'

 ><snip>

 >This post continued:

 >>I've had a few hair-raising experiences. Something chased me
 >>while I was in the car with my dad.

 >>We'd seen something hovering and had got out to have a look when
 >>two balls came out as if to get us. At that point I jumped back
 >>in the car - I was all for leaving my dad on the side of the
 >>road, I was that terrified.

 >I just want to share an anecdote that kind of reinforces the
 >reality of these encounters and how just about any human being
 >might react. Budd Hopkins once relayed an account to me about a
 >man who had been riddled with unresolved fears and guilt for
 >years.

 >During one of his hypnosis sessions the following comes out:

 >This man and his young son were travelling in their car along a
 >pretty desolate road when they spotted a UFO. The UFO lands,
 >blocking the cars' path, and the vehicle shuts down. Some of the
 >UFOs 'occupants' emerged from the craft, and they approached and
 >surrounded the stalled automobile. The father, in what must have
 >been a state of pure terror and blind panic pleaded with the
 >'aliens' to take his son and to leave him alone.

 >They did just that.

 >While reliving the experience during hypnosis this man had a
 >tremendous cathartic experience. The sense of relief that he
 >felt afterwards, from the release of the blocked and pent up
 >emotions along with, finally, knowing what was at the core of
 >his previously unresolved fears and guilt, had a markedly
 >beneficial and therapeutic effect on this individual.

 >The point?

 >This guy reacted to an impossible situation the way that many
 >others might have reacted, if confronted with similar
 >circumstances. Emotions run the gamut in terms of how people
 >feel and react when in a 'close contact' situation with a UFO or
 >its occupants. But fear, terror, and confusion, along with awe,
 >wonder and child-like amazement are all a part of the many
 >emotional responses any one of us might expect to experience to
 >such disturbingly close-encounters with the impossible.


Dear Mr. Velez, List and Errol Bruce-Knapp,

T'were I, there would be no doubt in my mind about who would be
taken. Any father who would react in that manner is not a
father.

Any father who would do that to his son is a failure as a father
as well as a failure as a man. Having observed my son for 59
years, had he a child, he too would react similarly to myself.

If that father remembered what he did, rather than be relieved,
he should be ashamed.

I've seen several UFOs and would rather not speak about it. I
have also seen my son suffer a torture very few would be able to
endure without losing his mind. Yet, thanks to that person, Mr.
Budd Hopkins, he was made well in a day.

James Mortellaro, Sr.

 >There but for the Grace of God go you or I.

No, not me. With the Grace of God, I would not go there.








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   Jun > Jun 29

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 01:22:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:31:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:00:53 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:00:08 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >List and Readers;

 >>>Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
 >>>data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
 >>>currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
 >>>to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17 miles
 >>>of the ranch. Now I would point out that apparently nobody
 >>>independent of Moore has run an analysis of the same data, i.e.
 >>>upper air currents, payload etc etc.

 >>This is correct... but note that the analysis of Moore's puts
 >>flight #4 _within_ 17 miles, _not_ 17 miles "short"!

 >Oops! Not quite correct.....

 >Moore's recollections were that flight 4 was _tracked_ to within
 >17 miles of the impact site. Moore's prediction of the flight
 >path and descent, done years later based on weather service
 >data, placed the impact "in the vicinity" of the actual site,
 >and much closer than the "17 miles" we have been bandying about.

The essence of this is, no matter who says what, no matter what
everybody _thinks_ there is _no_ data. We have Moore's 90s
analysis of the upper atmosphere winds based upon "what ifs",
possibilitys, theorys and everything else.  In essence we have
a theory/possibility floated by Moore that at the very, very
best comes 17 miles short of the debris field. I recall
something about if there was some other variation in the
calculation then the balloon would be 150 miles away. Truly the
only thing you have to hear, and understand about Mogel is we
have no tracking data, and their is even a question as to
whether a balloon took off on the day, (called Roswell witness
syndrome) and any and all information is based upon so called
analysis that is chocked full of variables and what ifs.

I again point out that _if_ the theory is skeptical, fits what
the skeptibunkers think and believe then 17 miles short is no
problem. However the same skeptibunkers would savage any UFO
researcher who made a pro UFO case that was 17 miles short.

Now any skeptibunker reading this, if you instantly say _no_
then we want to hear how much latitude you will give pro UFO
theorys and research. How about 17 miles for starters?


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jun > Jun 29

                       Re: Don Ledger Offline - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 01:55:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:32:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Don Ledger Offline - Gates


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Don Ledger Offline
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:50:10 -0300

 >Don Ledger called me, as mine was the only phone number he had
 >access to, because others are stored on his computer. It crashed
 >and he expects to be off line for a number of days.

Sounds like his computer is experiencing some 'missing time', so
to speak.


Cheers,

Robert








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                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:09:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:40:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Morris


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:57:57 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:22:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young


 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:48:28 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

<snip>

  >>However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
  >>assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
  >>miles away:

 >>(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >>had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >>17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >>more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
 >>minute flight."

 >>That would have put Flight 4 somewhere in southwest Kansas, not
 >>the Foster ranch. Where did you get the idea that Moore's
 >>analysis somehow proved that the balloons came down within 17
 >>miles of the ranch?


 >Hi David, Bruce:
 >
 >David goes on and on and on about his variables, assumptions,
 >mentions neightboring states, if this and that had been different.
 >
 >The problem with all of this is that no balloon train debris were
 >found in Kansas, but something very similar was found on the
 >Foster Ranch.
 >
 >
 >Ta, ta...
 >
 >Clear skies,
 >
 >Bob Young
 >

All,

The information regarding NYU Flight 4 is so minimal that I'm
sure it will continue to cause heated debate no doubt until the
cows eventually do come home. What has far more evidence, all be
it in witness testimony, are the alleged results of Flight 4's
demise, the debris field itself out there on the Foster Ranch.
So what can be and should be gleened from that.

I'm not going to re-print all the maths yet again, I've done it
several times and so has Dave Rudiak, but in essense, with the
exception of Sheridan Cavitt, the debris field is reported as
large, and if you calculate the amount of material required to
cover such an area even down to very minimal coverage densities
<1%, there is just not enough material in any known
configuration of balloons and ML307 radar targets used by the
NYU "MOGUL" team that could possibly account for the amount of
material reported by the majority of the witnesses.

If "x" amount of material went up with NYU Flight 4 then "x"
amount of material, less consumables would be expected to come
down. But doing the maths we find we are expected to believe
"xxxxxxx"of stuff actually came back down.

The conclusion being, sure Flight 4 could very well have crashed
out on the Foster Ranch, maybe even where Charles Moore claims
to have calculated it's crash point to be.

_But_, the debris field as described fairly consistantly by
multiple witnesses, including that given by Mack Brazel to the
Roswell Daily Record, while under alleged Army "hospitality",
all refute this, because the amount of debris required to create
a debris field as they describe is completely inconsistant with
what would be available at a downed "MOGUL" crash site.

There are photographs and film of "MOGUL" recoveries that do
support this point and show ballon/train landing sites as being
quite "compact" and certainly nothing on the scale of the
reported Foster Ranch debris field.


Neil








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              Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 05:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:42:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:33:06 +0000
 >Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:31:56 +0200
 >>Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >>The link to the text below refers to the book's own site.

 >>http://res.krasu.ru/liq_ufo/ann_eng.htm

 >>The author, Pavel Poluyan, has just been interviewed on
 >>PRAVDA.ru. The link and the first part is available at the end
 >>of this mail.

 >>Stig

 >>***

 >>Liquidation of the UFO

 >>In the book "Liquidation of the UFO", the Krasnoyarsk researcher
 >>Pavel Poluyan nominates and specifically proves a version of
 >>war- industry origin of "flying discs", based on the thorough
 >>analysis of the problem of the UFOs. Pavel Poluyan proves that
 >>the explanation of their flight doesn't need any exotic theory.
 >>The author of the book explains the principle, which is used by
 >>"flying discs" to create the carrying capacity: the difference
 >>of forces of any resistance, which occurs in uneven oscillation
 >>of cup-like and ellipsoidal forms in gaseous medium. This is the
 >>aerodynamic effect. It is shown, that during the UW frequences
 >>of vibration and overless amplitudes there are oscillation of
 >>difference of forces of any air resistance enough for upward
 >>flight and movement.

 ><snip>

 >Right. So, how does this fellow explain right angle turns at
 >thousands of miles an hour? Or flight out of the atmosphere? Or
 >the UFO that circled and 'beamed' that warhead off the west
 >coast? Or alien encounters and abductions? Or the consistent
 >killing of electrical systems near UFO sightings, and even
 >disablement and discharge of batteries where they have landed?
 >Or cause the earth where they have landed to be sterile for long
 >periods? Or instant disappearances/reappearances? Or that
 >abductee who had his boat abducted along with him, which
 >equipped with a recording GPS showed the boat tracked over LAND?

Or historical UFOs from previous centuries, etc... its easy. You
ignore any evidence that conflicts with your personal
hypothesis.

-Bill H








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              Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:04:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:01:12 -0400
Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:31:56 +0200
 >Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >The link to the text below refers to the book's own site.

 >http://res.krasu.ru/liq_ufo/ann_eng.htm

 >The author, Pavel Poluyan, has just been interviewed on
 >PRAVDA.ru. The link and the first part is available at the end
 >of this mail.

 >Stig

***

 >Liquidation of the UFO

 >In the book "Liquidation of the UFO", the Krasnoyarsk researcher
 >Pavel Poluyan nominates and specifically proves a version of
 >war- industry origin of "flying discs", based on the thorough
 >analysis of the problem of the UFOs. Pavel Poluyan proves that
 >the explanation of their flight doesn't need any exotic theory.
 >The author of the book explains the principle, which is used by
 >"flying discs" to create the carrying capacity: the difference
 >f forces of any resistance, which occurs in uneven oscillation
 >of cup-like and ellipsoidal forms in gaseous medium. This is the
 >aerodynamic effect. It is shown, that during the UW frequences
 >of vibration and overless amplitudes there are oscillation of
 >difference of forces of any air resistance enough for upward
 >flight and movement.

 >The author points out, that the repulsive power of induction,
 >which occurs in the metal-plastic body of "flying discs" as a
 >result of highfrequences variable electromagnetic fild, is used
 >to create such a "motive vibration". On the basis of the stated
 >principle the author explains the featurs UFO, the air
 >luminescence around the vibrating body, the electric devices
 >behaviour near the working system, etc.

 >Pavel Poluyan maintains that "flying discs" were created at the
 >end of the 40s within the framework of military project as a
 >great secret in the USA, and that numerous UFO incidents in the
 >United States that years were connected with the process of the
 >system's examination and its usage for military purposes. Using
 >the information stated in the book of Dr. B.Maccabee (Bruce
 >Maccabee, Ph.D. "UFO FBI Connection. The Secret History of the
 >Government's Cover-Up", 2000, Llewellyn Publications, St. Paul,
 >Minnesota 55164-0383, USA.) the Krasnoyarsk scientist analyses
 >the elements of company misinformation, which conducted secret
 >service of the USA and is freele or not published by mass-media.

<snip>

Seems as if the writer is a semi-idiot. Naturally I appreciate
his reference to my book . About a year ago it was translated
into Russian and I guess this is the sole result:
misinterpretation. Of course, I hope one result of his use of my
book is that it gets the publicity it deserves and a zillion
copies are sold. (Be much better than the few thousand so far).
However, it is dismaying to find that what he claims is found in
my book is opposite to what I wrote. As they say, perhaps it was
all in the translation?

Poluyan claims that evidence in my book points toward a secret
project of the US military to develop a circular flying craft.
He then goes on to describe a propulsion mechanism, discovered
by the Americans, which allows circular craft to fly. His
suggested propulsion mechanism sounds "a bit far out" and
deserves its own separate discussion. I wish to stay with his
claim that my book has evidence to show that the saucers were a
secret project of the USA.

In that very book there is reference to a letter from General
George Schulgen to J Edgar Hoover that specifically addresses
the claim that American secret aircraft were causing saucer
sightings. Schulgen was the Director of the Intelligence
Requirements Branch of Air Force Intelligence. On July 9, 1947,
during the height of the 1947 flap of sightings, Schulgen asked
the FBI to investigate sightings on the off chance that
communist subversion might be involved with at least some
sightings (with the intent to establish mass hysteria).

Hoover agreed but demanded providing the FBI had full access to
all discs recovered (LOL - no access to the Roswell object.

A bit over a month later an FBI agent was discussing the
situation with a Army AF Col (Garrett) who suggested that
perhaps the saucers were some tippy top secret development of
the USA. This suggestion was reported back to Hoover who
requested a specific statement from General Schulgen as to
whether or not secret US aircraft were causing sightings. In
early Sept. Hoover received a letter from Schulgen stating that
a complete search of secret projects revealed "no project with
the characteristics similar to those which have been associated
with the flying discs."

This is on page 17 of the above mentioned book. It was a letter
from the top level of the AF to the Director of the FBI. I
should point out that LOWER LEVEL Army Air Corps officers who
were not privy to the top level letter, did occasionally
speculate that there was some secret project of the US
government. However, no document of which I am aware, and I have
read hundreds/thousands identifies any aircraft project that
could result in aircraft with the characteristics attributed to
saucers, one of the most bizarre being "the ability to quickly
disappear by high speed or by complete disintegration" (item f
on page 24)

 >http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/27/31259.html

 >On-line PRAVDA

**

 >Pravda.RU:Top Stories:More in detail

*

 >14:20 2002-06-27

 >UFO POLITICS. IS THE US GOVERNMENT READY TO OPEN UP ITS MILITARY
 >SECRETS?

 >PART I

 >** Question. Pavel, in your book, you try to prove that there
 >are no extraterrestrials at all, while "flying saucers" are
 >secret devices made in the USA in the late 1940s for
 >reconnaissance and diversion. Is this not too bold?

 >Answer. You mean that extraterrestrials are gentle people, while
 >the Americans should be offended? You know, during George Bush's
 >visit to Moscow, RenTV showed the film UFO: life behind barbed
 >wire, where people in uniform, generals and colonels of the
 >Russian army, told about their observations and about the state
 >program of spying on "flying saucers" over USSR territory. The
 >generals pointed to Americans: they are said to possess secret
 >technology that is dangerous for the whole of mankind. That was
 >at the time of the US president's, when US analyst services
 >monitored all publications of the Russian mass media. In your
 >view, why was this done?

 >Q. Do you mean that the Americans were provoked while hinting
 >that it was time to disclose UFO secrets?

 >Answer. Recently, PRAVDA.Ru published an interview with Stephen
 >Bassett, who is running for the US Congress. The Disclosure2003
 >campaign accuses Bush Senior of taking the decision to classify
 >UFO documents while he was director of the FBI.

He was director of the CIA.

 >You should admit
 >that a strange political question has risen around these
 >notorious "flying saucers."

 >Q. How do you think this can be understood?

 >A. I will start in a roundabout way. 55 years ago, June 1947,
 >the so-called Roswell incident took place in the US: a "flying
 >saucer" crashed. The US military stated that it was a secret
 >balloon had fallen, while journalists put forward the UFO
 >version, because, at that time, in the US, "flying saucers" were
 >often observed.

Actually it was the Air Force that put forth the "UFO version."
Then the AF retracted.

 >Therefore, since that time, the myth of
 >extraterrestrials has been alive.

The AF did not put forth the claim that saucers were ET.

 >Unfortunately, the truth is more prosaic: in the 1940s, the US
 >actively tested secret flying devices that often wrecked. And it
 >is obvious that these were namely tests, because different
 >devices with different types of engines were seen. Look at least
 >into the Bruce Maccabee book, (UFO-FBI CONNECTION. The Secret
 >History of the Government's Cover-Up): there are different
 >declassified reports from government institutions. There is also
 >evidence that the "flying saucers" of the 1940s had nozzles,
 >vertical trimmers, and flew in a zigzag way, so an inversion
 >rack could be seen after them.

Huh?

 >Let us logically think: if the "flying saucers" are not
 >hallucinations and not natural phenomena but artificial devices,
 >there are only two variants: they were produced either on the
 >Earth or somewhere else.

I agree.

 >UFOs seriously differ from aircraft and
 >helicopters: they have no wings, they are silent, and they have
 >some luminescence around them. Therefore, the extraterrestrial
 >version is the most logical.

Let's hear it for logic.

 >However, this explanation is too
 >impossible, too fantastic; however, it sounds very romantic.

Ooops. Now we have ventured beyond logic into belief!

 >On
 >the other hand, in the 20th century, technological change
 >brought many surprises to mankind: let us take the nuclear bomb.
 >Who knows what else could have been born in secret laboratories,
 >for astronomical sums were invested in the arms race.

 >Q. Following your thought, in the middle of the 20th century,
 >did scientists discovered the secret of anti- gravitation?

 >A. The most laughable thing is that to explain how "flying
 >saucers" fly, no exotic theories are needed about some unknown
 >anti-gravitational fields. The secret of these unusual devices
 >is in the cunning use of a special aerodynamic effect, which was
 >known already at the beginning of the era of aircraft
 >construction.

 >As a child, you most likely played with an opened umbrella:
 >while moving it abruptly towards you, you could feel the
 >resistance of the air mass. People already played these games in
 >the early 20th century, when the first planes started. In some
 >old chronicles, you could see among other flying "shelves" an
 >odd device: a huge umbrella with an engine and pilot. The
 >umbrella moved sometimes up, sometimes down, the device became
 >airborne and again returned to the ground. That was the ancestor
 >of "flying saucers." Here, the effect of repulsion from
 >surroundings is at work. In this way, birds and butterflies fly.
 >However, a human being cannot repulse from air; Icarus could
 >only be in myths. While, in a more thick surroundings, for
 >example in water, people can repulse while swimming. More
 >interesting than a small bird is how a dragonfly flys: it can
 >simply hang in the air while minutely moving its wings.
 >Therefore, if a human being was equipped with huge wings to
 >repulse air very quickly, he could try to compensate for gravity
 >with the whole sum of repulsing impulses. However, you hardly
 >could imagine plane wings trembling in a dragonfly way. It is
 >much easier to imagine a kind of umbrella with which we catch
 >air. An umbrella in the form of a saucer.

He describes the way certain types of jellyfish move in the
water. However, these jellyfish hava already achieved neutral
bouyancy and hence their undulating motion can propel them.
Won't work in the atmosphere where there is no neutral bouyancy
(unless attached to a helium balloon).

 >There is no miracle in the parachute. Physically, the essence of
 >the process is that the great square of the canopy, while slowly
 >moving down, meets frontal resistance, which compensates for
 >gravity's pull on the parachute jumper. The form is also very
 >important: the hollow surface has the biggest strength factor,
 >while the surface bent towards the movement, a smooth form, has
 >a smaller strength factor. Therefore, it is clear why the first
">flying saucers" had such a form: flat from below and smooth
 >rom above. These "flying saucers" can fly without anti-
 >gravitation; they simply lean against the air. For example, a
">flying disc" is built like an almond.

 >A "flying saucer" is a kind of hard parachute, which, through
 >irregular microamplitude movements, not only cancels the
 >acceleration of gravety, but also overcomes gravitaty. It is not
 >by chance that a "flying saucer" in air is similar to a medusa
 >in water, which also uses the difference of forces while moving
 >up and down.

This is the jellyfish I was referring to, which already is
"floating" in the water.

 >Any engineer can make calculations and, after solving a
 >differential equation, understand that the a "saucer" can fly.
 >According to the calculations, to lift a real flying device, the
 >pusher corpse

I presume this was a "pusher body" (not a corpse!).

 >must vibrate with ultrasonic frequency. The lowest
 >level is 10 kilohertz; if the shear upwards within one vibration
 >is 1 mm, the speed of the strictly vertical lifting is 10 meters
 >a second.

Whether or not this could be made to work with modern day
lightweight materials and "ultrasonic" transducers based on the
new high strength magnets I do not know. However, such
materials were not available 55 years ago.

 >Q. Pavel, this is not journalism; this is a real working scheme,
 >an invention. And you openly tell about it.

 >A. All rights were already reserved, though "top secret." Many
 >specialists from different spheres know about it, though they
 >prefer to keep silent. However, it is very important to tell
 >people about it: they should not be afraid of UFOs.

 >Really, people could become panic-stricken while seeing in the
 >sky a luminous ellipsoid silently moving with great speed. It is
 >clear why the extraterrestrial myth appeared. In some degree, US
 >military could have been justified. A top secret plan was
 >necessary to protect the new creations from Soviet spies.
 >According to some information, initial design of such flying
 >devices was stolen by the Americans from captive German
 >engineers. British pilots saw small UFOs over German territory,
 >which seemed to emerge towards the attacking bombers.

Reference to the "fireballs" reported by both sides in WWII.

 > Later, the
 >myth was spread, so it lost its mystery. Nobody wanted to be
 >responsible for misinformation. Soviet engineers in their turn
 >understood that the "flying saucers" existed, so it was by then
 >a common military secret.

<snip>

SO did they make circular craft? And, if not why not, if it was
so straightforward?

........................................

May I take note of the fact that this book is getting "great
press." Why is it that when some one with some credibility
proposes a wacky UFO theory that does _not_ involve ET, it gets
"great press" while the continual flow of sightings and
suggested ET explanations are ignored by the press?

I am reminded of the "Buggy UFO Hypothesis" (BUH, my
terminology) that was proposed in a scientific magazine, Applied
Optics, in December, 1978. Two entymologists proposed that many
UFO sightings were caused by swarms of insects caught in a high
electric field in the atmosphere. The article made national news
as a possible/probable explanation. They cited the book about
sghtings in Utah (The Utah UFO Display) as their source for
information.

They did experiments in which they impaled beetles on high
voltage probes and photographed in the dark to detect the corona
from the insect's antenna (I bet that was a shocking experience
for the bug). Then they argued that because one tiny bug could
be seen glowing in the dark millions flying together in the
electric field of a thunderstorm, for example, could cause a
large glow and appear to be a large glowing object.

(ROTFLMAO).

They were wrong, of course. But the press certainly loved it.
Even Walter Cronkite devoted some time of the evening news to
this "buggy UFO Hypothesis". (For those of you who remember
Cronkite.)








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                        To Skeptics Reading This List

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:03:06 -0400
Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List


If any of you still have even the slightest doubt that the
Sturrock panel wasn't 100% justified in re-evaluating and
revising Dr. Condon's conclusions from the 1966 Colorado Study,
the following page recently added to my web site, may be of
interest.

With so many years having past, younger skeptics may not have
ever seen NICAP's original rebuttal to the Condon Study. It was
taken from The UFO Investigator, January 1969, Vol. IV, Special
Edition. I happened to come across it as I was researching
something else.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm


Respectfully,

Jerry Cohen
http://www.cohenufo.org/









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                    Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:21:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:05:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Kaeser


 >From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100

 >Breakout Of The Fictions

<snip>

 >The MJ12 group was a proud techno-aristocracy. Well-heeled
 >and over-protected, and presumably as fond of decadent games
 >as is every aristocracy. Could some of these socially
 >isolated people, over-endowed with brain (as was Borges), in
 >a supremely decadent moment, have cooked something up from
 >this story? Inward looking, and possibly in a state of shock
 >after the most intense five years any human could live
 >through, they faced an immediate post-war world that they did
 >not understand, and moreover a world that had taken their
 >youth away, and given almost all of them fatal cancers. As
 >Eisenhower hinted, certainly Borges' ideas could have
 >represented to them a kind of fantastic super- science, the
 >next quantum step as regards conceptions of Matter and Idea,
 >and there were as many forms of such things flying around Los
 >Alamos in the late forties as there were desert flies. As
 >Friedman and the Woods have so convincingly demonstrated, the
 >MJ12 papers show access to vintage top-secret material. Is it
 >possible that like the heresiarchs of Uqbar, the elite of the
 >military-industrial-complex attempted the experiment of
 >seeding powerful suggestions if only to sit back and watch
 >such new-born information animals attempt to clone
 >themselves, producing almost-appearances and almost-objects
 >such as the UFO?

 >And when they had done so, did they attempt unsuccessfully to
 >shut the pile down?

I think you give too much weight to the research of Friedman and
the Woods in the MJ-12 affair (no offense intended to either
party).

They have laid out their arguments, but few researchers give
much credence to the MJ-12 papers, and none have (to my
knowledge) provenance that can be verified.

There are several good arguments to show that the SOM-101 manual
is not valid, and what most probably don't realize is that the
manual was received long before it was publicized by Friedman in
his book.

Efforts had gotten underway to try and check its provenance
before it began to impact the genre in a negative way, but some
felt the need to get this information out.

This is, of course, an old debate and certainly not worth
re-hashing again (unless there is some new information to
convey).


Steve








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                  Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:07:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:31:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >Hello Jim, GT, All,

 >As a New Yorker who knows all too well how the folks in Arizona
 >are feeling right now, I wanted to express my empathy. The rest
 >of the country came through for us after Sept. 11 and I'm
 >certain they will come through for the people and businesses
 >that have been adversely affected in Arizona. My best wishes to
 >you all.

Thank you.

 >Re: Travis Walton/Mike Rogers

 >I had the pleasure of dinning with both of these gentlemen and
 >their wives at the gala dinner that was held at the 50th
 >anniversary celebration of the Roswell case. (In Roswell, 1997)

 >I found both of these men to be bright, serious and sober
 >individuals. Not the type that could even remotely be labelled
 >as 'kooks'. I have been following this thread closely because I
 >happen to be among those that believe Travis and Mike and their
 >account of what transpired on the day that Travis disappeared.
 >(And subsequently re-appeared)

Definitely as far from kooks as you can get.  Either the
smoothest con-men of all time (surpassing even Ed Walters) or
just plain folk, telling what happened.

 >I am curious Jim, were you hoping to find (after all this time)
 >some kind of residual physical evidence at the location of the
 >abduction? Do you know if anyone (at the time) bothered to
 >inspect the trees for damage? Or if radiation levels,
 >electromagnetic anomalies and such were ever checked/measured?

There were some geiger-counter measurements taken not long after
the incident, but as I recall nothing out of the ordinary was
found.

 >If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious about what it was you
 >were looking for/going to check out, at the site.

I have been recently (well, a couple years ago) made aware of
some possible residual physical evidence at the site.  If it is
as described, it would far surpass any trace case  in the
history of ufology, with respect to provenance and credibility .
I am waiting to re-contact Mike Rogers before discussing further
in public, as I want to see how much of this evidence he was
able to retain. I don't think it's a big secret, in fact I think
some researchers here are aware of it, it's just that I never
got a chance to talk to Mike about my interest in the evidence
before the fire broke out.


 >Pure coincidence? 'Freaky' coincidence says I! We all shared a
 >huge cosmic laugh over it. :)

Small world!

 >Regards, and nice to meet you and have you on the List Jim.

Thanks, John.







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                    Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:38:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:08:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Sandow


 >From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100

 >On re-reading Borges=92 short story Tl=F6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius,
 >it occurred to me that there might be something of genuine
 >MJ12 interest in this curious tale. Though according to Andre
 >Maurois, Borges wrote the first version of his story in 1940,
 >it first appeared in the Argentinean Spanish-language
 >publication Ficciones in 1945. It is odd than no MJ12
 >researcher appears to have noticed this work. It outlines no
 >less the complete body of the MJ12 story, and was written
 >significantly within that stretch of years representing the
 >formative middle-ranking period and accelerated wartime
 >promotions of the significant top players of MJ12.

 >Since a great planetary war was raging, intellectual life and
 >literature and the arts had come almost to a stop, and
 >therefore what little literary activity there was
 >(particularly of the avant guard type) existed in the form of
 >very few magazines, often of an A5 size, such as the British
 >Lilliput and Men Only (this latter has no connection to its
 >modern equivalent!) that could be carried in the map pocket
 >of a military uniform. Short stories and short articles were
 >all that existed practically for contemporary intellectual
 >food, received and absorbed as it was under often very
 >strenuous work and battle conditions

A remarkable notion.

In the United States, at least, intellectual and cultural life
continued throughout the war. Books and magazines were
published, radio stations stayed in business, newspapers
appeared every day (many more of them than are printed now,
since even medium-sized cities had two or more daily papers;
most now only have one).

Movies were made -- hundreds of them. Major league baseball
teams played full seasons, as did the Metropolitan Opera and
major orchestras throughout the country. Dance bands did big
business. "Oklahoma," never to be forgotten, premiered on
Broadway in 1943. The original-cast recording of its songs sold
more than a million copies, as did Bing Crosby's "I'll Be Home
for Christams." Crosby, in fact, had four million-selling
records in 1943, at the height of the war, and three more in
1944. From 1942 through 1944 there were 42 million-selling pop
records in America, certainly a sign that cultural life hadn't
exactly shut down. It's true that special, slim editions of
books were published, specially designed to fit into the pockets
of military uniforms, but these were reprints of volumes already
published in normal format.

Colin Bennett, of course, is from the UK, and I can well imagine
that things were worse there, since apart from the Pearl Harbor
surprise (and some minor sabotage elsewhere), the US wasn't
attacked during the war, as Britain was. And things on the
continent and in Russia must have been still worse. Even so,
cultural life didn't shut down in any of those places, either. I
know much less about this than I know about things in the US.
But if you're looking for recordings by the great conductor
Wilhelm Furtwangler (who died in 1954), you'll find that many of
the best ones are of live concerts he conducted in Vienna during
the war. I treasure a live recording of Richard Strauss's opera
"Arabella," conducted by Clemens Krauss, and made at the
Salzburg (Austria) Festival in 1942. Shostakovich's "Leningrad"
symphony, which premiered in Russia at the height of the war and
supposedly depicted the Nazi attack and Soviet resistance, was a
sensation at symphony concerts throughout the allied nations. (I
say "supposedly" because of later revelations that Shostakovich
may also have targeted the Stalin regime in his piece, but
that's another story.)

But then it doesn't even matter what went on outside the US,
because Bennett is talking about literary and cultural life in
America, where the Manhattan Project scientists worked, along
with the MJ-12 (if they really existed).

 >It is possible therefore
 >that Borges=92 original story was sought out in these
 >conditions by very small elite groups such as those who
 >worked on the Manhattan Project. It can easily be imagined
 >for example, that the main high-level high-IQ figures around
 >Oppenheimer (including Teller, Fermi etc) reading at least
 >the earliest version of Tl=F6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. Richard
 >Feynman for one, would have loved it. The Los Alamos staff in
 >particular would hardly been able to avoid Spanish-American
 >culture. Needing intellectual food in their mental and
 >physical isolation they would in all likelihood have sought
 >it from such Argentinean writers as Borges whose country was
 >hardly affected physically by war, and whose publishing and
 >printing houses still had time, inclination, and materials
 >for such luxuries as free literary expression

But of course books were published in the US. Here's a little
more information: Two of Raymond Chandler's most famous
mysteries, "The High Window" and "The Lady in the Lake," were
published, respectively, in 1942 and 1943 -- and reprinted just
a year later in London. The best-selling novel of 1942 was Franz
Werfel's "The Song of Bernadette"; in 1943, Lloyd C. Douglas's
"The Robe"; in 1994, Lillian Smith's "Strange Fruit."

The scientists at Los Alamos could easily ignore Spanish-
American culture; most non-hispanic Americans did, back then.
Spanish-speaking people hadn't flooded into the US then in the
numbers that represent them now, nor were they a cultural and
poltical force that no one could ignore.

Moreoever, the Spanish-American culture in the Los Alamos area
wouldn't have been literary, and wouldn't have been from
Argentina. It would have been (and, as far as I know, still is)
predominantly Mexican. Those people weren't reading Borges. For
that matter, even in New York now, with far more Hispanic
immigration, from many more countrires, it's rare to meet or
hear about anyone from Argentina. Cuba, yes; the Dominican
Republic, Puerto Rico, Peru, Colombia, Mexico...but not
Argentina. Spanish-American literature (Marquez, Borges, Neruda,
and so on) became famous long after 1945 in America -- and in in
translation, in English-speaking literary circles, not through
any advocacy by Spanish-speaking Americans.

I won't comment on the rest of Bennett's speculations. But some
of it, clearly, is based on imaginary history.

Greg Sandow








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                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:21:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:17:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:00:53 -500
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:20:39 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >This is correct... but note that the analysis of Moore's puts
 >flight #4 _within_ 17 miles, _not_ 17 miles "short"!

 >Oops! Not quite correct.....

 >Moore's recollections were that flight 4 was _tracked_ to within
 >17 miles of the impact site.

Correct. Thank you for admitting your error here.

Another mea culpa is also due from you for your claim that
Albert Crary's diary entry for Flight 4 documents that it was
tracked by radar, and by air no less. It does not. It was
speaking of the sonobuoy reception.

 >Moore's prediction of the flight
 >path and descent, done years later based on weather service
 >data, placed the impact "in the vicinity" of the actual site,
 >and much closer than the "17 miles" we have been bandying about.

Right. Moore made as many assumptions as necessary to drop
Flight 4 directly on Mack Brazel's head. That's the problem with
his "prediction." He did whatever was necessary to get the end
result he wanted and previously believed to be true. This is
considered to be very bad science. Scientific protocols are
intentionally designed to try to minimize the effects of wishful
thinking, hence, e.g., the use of double-blind experiments.

What Moore demonstrated was that Flight 4 could _possibly_ have
ended up on the Foster ranch given that his numerous assumptions
were _all_ true.

This, however, is not a very robust theory, since altering any
of these assumptions would place the balloons somewhere else,
sometimes very, very far away. As Moore himself noted, if the
balloons hadn't gotten to the maximum altitude he assumed, they
could have ended up in southwest Kansas.

However, the debunking community doesn't seem to realize (or
maybe care about) the shakiness of Moore's prediction, instead
twisting mostly guesswork into some sort of "scientific proof"
that Flight 4 ended up on the Foster Ranch.

A better, but much more complicated model, would take into
account the uncertainties in all the variables and create a
probabilistic model of where the balloon could have gone.
Perhaps the most probable region would have been near the Foster
Ranch. But I strongly suspect that such a model would probably
show a much higher probability of the balloons ending up
somewhere else.

One indication of this is from Mogul records themselves. Very
few Moguls with known trajectories strayed anywhere near the
Foster ranch. A vast majority were carried roughly eastward
towards the Roswell vicinity or southward by prevailing winds.
Of 52 recorded flights that I could find in reprinted Mogul
records in the 1995 AF Roswell report, only 2, or maybe 3 had
trajectories to the north or NE that took them to within 20 or
30 miles of the Foster ranch.

One notable instance of this was Flight #17 on Sept. 9, 1947,
which took a virtually identical northeasterly trajectory that
Moore claims for Flight #4, past all those small N.M. towns
which Moore associates with first hearing with Flight #4. Flight
#17 actually did end up in Kansas.

If Roswell debunkers can argue with a straight face that stories
of alien bodies in 1947 are explained by witnesses "time
compressing" "crash dummies" from the 1950s and 1960s, I think I
can argue with an even straighter face that maybe Moore is
confusing Flight #17 only 3 months later with what he thinks he
remembers for Flight #4.

 >As a side note; the orientation of the debris field predicted by
 >Moore matches Marcel's original description.

As another side note, Marcel described a debris distribution
exactly the opposite of what would be predicted for a Mogul
crash, namely the metallic debris was thickest to the northeast
and thinned out towards the southwest.

As still another side note, Marcel described a far more
extensive debris field than any Mogul could produce. In 1947, AP
stories seemingly quoted him as saying that debris was scattered
over a square mile. In interviews 30 years later, he said that
he and Cavitt were only able to pick up only a tiny part of it.
A Mogul would produce only a small fraction of that quantity of
debris. To think otherwise is like saying a few gum wrappers and
burst party balloons was sufficient to badly litter your
neighborhood.

And of course, Marcel described highly anomalous debris
completely unlike anything a Mogul could produce -- "memory"
foil and fabric that couldn't be cut or burned, sticks that
couldn't be broken or burned, etc. Marcel wasn't the only one to
describe such properties. E.g., Brig. Gen. Arthur Exon was later
to confirm some of these anomalous properties from testing done
at Wright-Patterson labs and to state that Roswell was the crash
of a craft from space.

The point is, the orientation of the debris field was just one
small facet of Marcel's overall testimony of what he found. To
carefully choose the one the one detail that might match with a
debunking scenario while completely ignoring the rest that does
not is the very essence of pelicanism.


David Rudiak








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                 Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:19:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:27:26 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:57:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>>>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:48:28 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >>>However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
 >>>assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
 >>>miles away:

 >>>(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >>>had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >>>17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >>>more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
 >>>minute flight."

 >>>That would have put Flight 4 somewhere in southwest Kansas, not
 >>>the Foster ranch. Where did you get the idea that Moore's
 >>>analysis somehow proved that the balloons came down within 17
 >>>miles of the ranch?

 >>David goes on and on and on about his variables, assumptions,
 >>mentions neightboring states, if this and that had been different.

 >>The problem with all of this is that no balloon train debris were
 >>found in Kansas, but something very similar was found on the
 >>Foster Ranch.

 >I almost burped my coffee reading Bob's silly comment based on
 >the old debunker dictum "Absence of Evidence is evidence for
 >absence".

 >Just how is it Bob or anybody else knows what was or was not
 >found East of the Foster Ranch? Ranchers found weather
 >balloons... that is what Mogul was, not those beautiful tear drop
 >shaped poly ones so loved by makers of pseudo-documentaries,
 >all the time. Trash.

 >In addition, there is nothing about the wreckage that Brazel,
 >and Marcel, dealt with, that matches the Mogul package at all.
 >No memory material, no I-beams that couldn't be broken or
 >burned, no strange symbols (except on Toy tape that nobody has
 >seen).

 >Lost in the shuffle here is yet another reminder that none of
 >the technology of Mogul was highly classified. If it was, the
 >balloon junk would have certainly been followed and recovered.

 >The practice of debunkery gets stranger and stranger all the
 >time.

Bob and other skeptibunkers excel at force-fitting data to
support their preconceived conclusions. It had to be a Mogul
balloon, therefore the vaguest and most incomplete evidence of
such is presented as absolute fact.

The 1973 Ohio helicopter case had to be a fireball meteor,
therefore it was a fireball meteor despite the total lack of
evidence for it and internal evidence that the fireball
hypothesis does not fit the facts.

The 1966 Ravenna, Ohio, police chase case had to be Venus,
therefore it was Venus, despite the documented facts that show
the absurdity of this assertion.

Never let it be said that skeptibunkers engage in anything
approaching objective analysis of important UFO cases; they know
the answers in advance (ALL UFOs have prosaic explanations) and
"prove" them by advancing totally unsubstantiated and often
counter-to-fact claims.


  - Dick








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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:05:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:57:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Fleming


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:27:26 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >In addition, there is nothing about the wreckage that Brazel,
 >and Marcel, dealt with, that matches the Mogul package at all.
 >No memory material, no I-beams that couldn't be broken or
 >burned, no strange symbols (except on Toy tape that nobody has
 >seen).

On the subject of the alleged tape with flowers, is there any
evidence that there was a 'scotch tape' shortage during World
War II that forced the Army to get tape for its radar reflectors
from toy companies?

I always thought that during the war, it was the military that
had a priority claim to all resources and the civilians who had
to ration or do without. I know there were shortages of
gasoline, steel, many other raw materials, and food in the
civilian sector.

The Air Force's report on Roswell was the first thing I've ever
read asserting that there was a tape shortage, and that
(unknown) civilian companies were wasting it to make toys (of an
unknown type) when the Allies had a crying need for it to
prepare the big weather balloon offensive against the Axis
Powers.

It's a wonder we won the war at all, what with all this
scandalous hoarding of scotch tape by unscrupulous toy
companies. :)








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                              SDI - 195 Tonight

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:07:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:07:17 -0400
Subject: SDI  - 195 Tonight



For those who may be interested, tonight's line-up includes:

Dave Furlotte
Palmiro Campagna
Joe Nickell [CSICOP]
Stanton T. Friedman
John Velez

You can listen from 10:00 p.m. Eastern via

http://www.cfrb.com

or CFRB 1010 AM - Toronto


ebk

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/






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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 07:31:56 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert


 >From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >With so many years having past, younger skeptics may not have
 >ever seen NICAP's original rebuttal to the Condon Study. It was
 >taken from The UFO Investigator, January 1969, Vol. IV, Special
 >Edition. I happened to come across it as I was researching
 >something else.

<snip>

Hi, Jerry:

If one is not a skeptic, what are you? A "believer"? "Pro-UFO"?
How can one remain objective if not at least somewhat skeptical
about anything one studies?

You addressed your post to the "Skeptics" reading this List and
I thought, "I'm skeptical at times about many things so does
that make me a "skeptic"? Is this post addressed to me?" (Had
the subject been "To Young Skeptics", it would have ruled me out
immediately. ;>)

I was once a believer. I was once pro-UFO. But luckily I
returned to my roots as a researcher. As a researcher, I cannot
believe anything for or against UFO's, aliens, etc. To believe
either way is to blind myself to any truths that may be contrary
to what I believe. If I cannot see truth, should I stumble upon
it, how will I ever find it?

A believer is one who believes he or she has found the truth. A
skeptic is one who doubts, one who has not found the truth.When
one believes, he or she does not require evidence to convince
them - they already have all the evidence they need. When one is
skeptical, he or she is seeking more evidence as they are not
yet convinced, they do not believe.

What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong about being
skeptical? Why are people labeled "Skeptics" on this list and
other lists as if they have some type of horrible disease?

Ufology is not a religion, it is a science wannabe. One does not
have to believe in UFO's or be pro-UFO to study these anomalies.
In fact, it is wiser to suspend belief altogether if truth is
your objective.

I don't care what's in style these days, I'm a skeptic and proud
of it!


A. Hebert








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                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:44:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 07:33:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:57:57 EDT
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >>However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
 >>assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
 >>miles away:

 >>(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >>had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >>17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >>more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
 >>minute flight."

 >>That would have put Flight 4 somewhere in southwest Kansas, not
 >>the Foster ranch. Where did you get the idea that Moore's
 >>analysis somehow proved that the balloons came down within 17
 >>miles of the ranch?

 >David goes on and on and on about his variables, assumptions,
 >mentions neightboring states, if this and that had been different.

It's called peer review Bob -- pointing out serious shortcomings
in methodology and conclusions. If Moore had sent his work off
to some scientific journal, he would have faced the exact same
criticisms from the reviewers. "Dear Dr. Moore. We are returning
your paper. Interesting theory, but your work is primarily
assumptions with no data to back them up."

Moore's model of the Flight 4 Mogul trajectory has been
hyperinflated into some sort of unquestionable scientific proof
by the Roswell debunking camp that Flight 4 explains the Roswell
crash. It is nothing of the kind.

 >The problem with all of this is that no balloon train debris were
 >found in Kansas, but something very similar was found on the
 >Foster Ranch.

Nice job of begging the question Bob. Assume as correct the very
subject that is being disputed.

It would be like saying, "The problem with Mogul is that no
balloon train debris was found on the Foster Ranch. Mack Brazel
found a flying saucer."

 >Ta, ta...

 >Clear skies,

Tootle-loo...

Clear thinking,

David Rudiak








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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:21:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:05:28 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >On the subject of the alleged tape with flowers, is there any
 >evidence that there was a 'scotch tape' shortage during World
 >War II that forced the Army to get tape for its radar reflectors
 >from toy companies?

<snip>

The whole "novelty tape" scenario is rather bizarre. I
personally can accept that such tape was used for Mogul arrays,
but I find it perplexing that none of it has survived for
inspection.  This could be a deciding factor in the study of the
"Roswell Incident": if we had a known sample, we could offer it
to Jesse Marcel, Jr. and ask his opinion.

Perhaps this wouldn't "solve" anything, but who knows? Maybe
he'd experience an "ah-ha!" moment and exclaim "That's the
stuff!  That's the stuff I saw!"

In the meantime, maybe it would be worth the effort to query
tape manufacturers to see if they ever produced any "novelty
tape."  3M, maybe?  The designs at the heart of the debate might
be collecting dust in a file somewhere (just waiting for someone
with rubber gloves to come nit-picking).

See "Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy" essay at:

http://mactonnies.com/ufos.html

Mac








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                 Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Days

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:27:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:27:56 -0400
Subject: Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Days



The 'Strange Days... Indeed' interview with Joe Nickell of
CSICOP and Stanton T. Friedman is available at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/

click the Play button in the details cell of program 195 to
grab the .ra file


ebk








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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:36:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:03 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:31:00 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>Hello Jim, GT, All,

 >>As a New Yorker who knows all too well how the folks in Arizona
 >>are feeling right now, I wanted to express my empathy.

[snip]

 >>Re: Travis Walton/Mike Rogers

 >>I had the pleasure of dining with both of these gentlemen and
 >>their wives at the gala dinner that was held at the 50th
 >>anniversary celebration of the Roswell case. (In Roswell, 1997)

[snip]

 >I have been recently (well, a couple years ago) made aware of
 >some possible residual physical evidence at the site. If it is
 >as described, it would far surpass any trace case in the
 >history of ufology, with respect to provenance and credibility .

 >I am waiting to re-contact Mike Rogers before discussing further
 >in public, as I want to see how much of this evidence he was
 >able to retain. I don't think it's a big secret, in fact I think
 >some researchers here are aware of it, it's just that I never
 >got a chance to talk to Mike about my interest in the evidence
 >before the fire broke out.

 >>Pure coincidence? 'Freaky' coincidence says I! We all shared a
 >>huge cosmic laugh over it. :)

 >Small world!

 >>Regards, and nice to meet you and have you on the List Jim.

 >Thanks, John.

- - -

Hello Jim:


I have to chime in and moan the loss of all that forest. I spent
the nite in Show Low once on my way East, very cute little town.

My question is the precise location of the Walton event, the
place in Turkey Springs where they had parked the truck, Walton
walked under the UFO etc.

I try to map sightings to the resolution of the program whenever
possible (*U* records resolve to perhaps 1/3 mile or 500 meters).

My existing record reads: (edited for line lengths)

#11601: 1975/11/05 1810h 110:35:20W 34:18:00N
9mi S/HEBER,AZ:TRAVIS WALTON ABD:OIDs+PSH ..
/r210v24#9+10 +/r24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR, June'76

In short, the location is imprecise. My longitude and latitude
are based on "9 miles south of Heber, AZ" without consideration
of the actual lay of the land, turns in the roads etc. There are
no roads running due south. 9 miles of twisting road might work
out to 5 miles as the crow flies etc.

Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

Here, Jim, is a map of the Western USA so you can see some of
what I do with the info:

http://www.larryhatch.net/WESTUSA.html


Any help much appreciated!


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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              Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin

From: Boris Shurinov <shurinov@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 04:17:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:39:24 -0400
Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:04:40 -0400
 >Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:31:56 +0200
 >>Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >>The link to the text below refers to the book's own site.

 >>http://res.krasu.ru/liq_ufo/ann_eng.htm

 >>The author, Pavel Poluyan, has just been interviewed on
 >>PRAVDA.ru. The link and the first part is available at the end
 >>of this mail.

 >>Stig

 >***

<snip>


 >Seems as if the writer is a semi-idiot.


No, Bruce. The translation was correct. This "specialist" must
be a complete fool.


Boris Shurinov









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                              News Of Jim, Sr.

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 01:38:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 08:43:55 -0400
Subject: News Of Jim, Sr.



Dear List and Errol,

Dad is going to Lenox Hill Hospital on Monday for a cardiac
workup. You good thoughts and prayers are wellcome. At nearly
90, he has some potientially serious heart issues to evaluate
for treatment. We hope it will be minimal and we get him home
real quick.

However, no matter his condition, not only will this List have
to up with Morty put, but with Morty Sr. too. And he will have
my little IBM laptop with him. So, alla yous doods and doodesses
... watch out. Now there are _two_ of us.

Please remember pop in your prayers and good thoughts.


Jim Mortellaro, Jr.
(The Lesser Morty)








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              Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:18:48 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:01:52 -0400
Subject: Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race Question'
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:19:40 -0500

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:45:49 +0200
 >>Subject: NASC 1963: 'Thoughts On The Space Alien Race Question'

 >>Another interesting US government document which is now online.

 >>Source: U.S. Department Of State

 >>http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/kennedyjf/ol/xxv/6023.htm

 >>The item is found at the bottom of the webpage.

 ><snip>

 >Mr. Agermose -- you've been forwarding these ufological tid-bits
 >to us for years. It occurred to me that you may have some
 >comments, observations, asides, or summations to share regarding
 >them all in their entirety... an overview if you like...

 >Any thoughts to share? Feelings? Suspicions? Views? I would be
 >very interested, and I'm sure many others would be, also. Thanks
 >in advance.

My first and foremost aim is to hammer the public with
information about the subject, until a sufficient number of
demands for release of suppressed information is directed
towards the US and British governments, which I believe are the
main culprits. As for the nature of the UFO phenomenon, I, for
my part, am convinced that we are being visited by
extraterrestrial civilizations.

Too many reliable witnesses - military people, policemen etc. -
have seen the interplanetary craft for it all to be wishful
thinking, in fact I have had a very mystifying experience,
myself.

In January of 1998 I was taking a walk with my fianc=E9 at the
time. I told her, half in jest, that I thought it a little bit
unfair that the ETs never had shown themselves to me, in spite
of the countless hours I had spent spreading information about
them. She agreed, and then we changed the subject and went to
'Cassiopeia', a restaurant which is attached to the Tycho Brahe
Planetarium, situated by a lake in the center of Copenhagen.

As we were sitting by the window, enjoying the pretty view, she
directed my attention to a giant ball of light that had appeared
in the black night sky, almost above us, but to the left of our
position. It was stationary for about 5 minutes and then went
out like an electric bulb. No form could be discerned around it,
and no sound was heard; the distance was hard to evaluate, but
appeared to be no more than some hundred meters.

We got quite excited, another 5 minutes went by, and then a new
giant ball of light appeared, still almost above us. The
distance seemed the same, but this time the light was to the
right of our position. I went outside, and still no sound was
heard. This ball of light looked and behaved exactly like the
first one: it remained stationary for about 5 minutes and then
went out like an electric bulb; no form could be discerned
around it.

I went back to the restaurant, but except for my fianc=E9, people
were too busy talking and eating, or too far away from the
window, to notice anything. I discussed the phenomenon intently
with her, about 10 minutes went by, and then two exact replicas
of the first lights appeared to the left of our position, and
still almost above us. They didn't move for about 5 minutes and
went out like two electric bulbs. The objects were totally
silent.


Stig









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   Jun > Jun 30

                   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:46:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:07:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Friedman


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:21:48 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

 >>From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100

 >>Breakout Of The Fictions

 ><snip>

 >>The MJ12 group was a proud techno-aristocracy. Well-heeled
 >>and over-protected, and presumably as fond of decadent games
 >>as is every aristocracy. Could some of these socially
 >>isolated people, over-endowed with brain (as was Borges), in
 >>a supremely decadent moment, have cooked something up from
 >>this story? Inward looking, and possibly in a state of shock
 >>after the most intense five years any human could live
 >>through, they faced an immediate post-war world that they did
 >>not understand, and moreover a world that had taken their
 >>youth away, and given almost all of them fatal cancers. As
 >>Eisenhower hinted, certainly Borges' ideas could have
 >>represented to them a kind of fantastic super- science, the
 >>next quantum step as regards conceptions of Matter and Idea,
 >>and there were as many forms of such things flying around Los
 >>Alamos in the late forties as there were desert flies. As
 >>Friedman and the Woods have so convincingly demonstrated, the
 >>MJ12 papers show access to vintage top-secret material. Is it
 >>possible that like the heresiarchs of Uqbar, the elite of the
 >>military-industrial-complex attempted the experiment of
 >>seeding powerful suggestions if only to sit back and watch
 >>such new-born information animals attempt to clone
 >>themselves, producing almost-appearances and almost-objects
 >>such as the UFO?

 >>And when they had done so, did they attempt unsuccessfully to
 >>shut the pile down?

 >I think you give too much weight to the research of Friedman and
 >the Woods in the MJ-12 affair (no offense intended to either
 >party).

 >They have laid out their arguments, but few researchers give
 >much credence to the MJ-12 papers, and none have (to my
 >knowledge) provenance that can be verified.

 >There are several good arguments to show that the SOM-101 manual
 >is not valid, and what most probably don't realize is that the
 >manual was received long before it was publicized by Friedman in
 >his book.

I have still not seen these "good" arguments succeed. I have
seen false reasoning, a rush to judgement, etc. I can't imagine
why most people wouldn't realize that the manual was received
well before my book 'TOP SECRET/MAJIC' was published. After all
I noted on page 161, first page of Chapter 9 "The Majestic 12
Operations Manual", that Don Berliner had received the manual in
March of 1994 but that I hadn't become aware of it until Dec.
1994, when Don slipped up and made a brief comment about it.

Judging by the many false arguments I can imagine that most
people haven't read TSM, nor the 108 page, 1990 'Final Report on
Operation Majestic 12', nor my MUFON 2000 paper 'Roswell and the
MJ-12 Documents In The New Millennium' in which I deal with
objections.

But why let the facts stand in the way of a loud proclamation?

For example, are most people aware that Phil Klass paid me
$1000. for providing 10 NSC documents done in the same large
PICA type as the CT memo, though he claimed on the basis of 9 of
the 250,000 Eisenhower Library NSC comment that it should have
had elite type? The check is in FR on MJ-12".

Many claimed that the security marking TOP SECRET RESTRICTED was
absolutely wrong. Sorry, the GAO found a number of examples of
this in still classified documents. CSICOP's Senior Research
Fellow Joe Nickell claimed that the date format 18 November,
1952, was wrong because it violated the government style manual
(the comma after November). I have located many documents,
definitely genuine, that have the same date format (2 by MJ -12
members Smith and Hillenkoetter) and many others.

Some falsely proclaim that all TS documents have to have TS
Control numbers. In 'FR on MJ-12' I had published 4 genuine TS
documents that did not... and there are many others. Some claim
that Osborn in 'Questioned Documents' (Supposedly 1978)shows
that if the 2 Truman signatures are identical (They are not) one
must be fraudulent. Actually Osborn, (which was really written
in 1910 _not_ 1978) says one can have essentially identical
signatures, but not consecutively. The 2 Truman signatures are
a week apart.

Some objected to dates in SOM being too early. Then it was
discovered that Berliner hadn't had a print made of the Change
page, which helps destroy that argument. There is much more in
the above referenced items all available from UFORI see:

www.v-j- enterprises.com/sfpage.html

 >Efforts had gotten underway to try and check its provenance
 >before it began to impact the genre in a negative way, but some
 >felt the need to get this information out.

We don't know who Deep throat was either. Does that mean his
data was wrong?We do know the roll of film was sent from La
Crosse Wisconsin. Let's face it, for somebody with a high
security clearance to photograph a Classified document and
distribute it, is a clear violation of the law.He was at risk.
Having unauthorized possession of a classified document in the
US is not illegal, though it is in the UK.

We do know that the National Archives made a number of changes
in their original statement about the CT memo, when I pointed
out specific facts such as that the onionskin paper used for
carbon copies did NOT all have a certain watermark .

 >This is, of course, an old debate and certainly not worth
 >re-hashing again (unless there is some new information to
 >convey).

 >Steve

If the critics of MJ-12 would do their homework instead of
proclaiming the documents are fraudulent, we wouldn't have to
rehash. They haven't hashed in the first place. I should point
out that by careful research the entirely independent Tim Cooper
documents about MJ-12 were shown in my MUFON 2000 paper to be
fraudulent... by investigation not by proclamation.


Stan Friedman








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   Jun > Jun 30

                     RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@sprint.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:54:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:12:02 -0400
Subject: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change


List,

The web site displaying the methodology for calculating the time
of day when the Fort Worth Ramey/DuBose photo shoot took place
has been moved to a new site address.

http://pages.sprint.ca/rpitcanada_1_photoshoot/files/photo_shoot_time_001.htm

For some reason, and I have not received an explanation by the
service provider to my query, all of my files pertaining to that
this web page only, were in-accessible. In an attempt to upload
the files to the same site, the upload was not accepted. I had
to build a new web site.

It will be interesting to see if the same thing occurs again.


Andrew Lavoie







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                        Re: SDI - 195 Tonight - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:59:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:16:56 -0400
Subject: Re:  SDI  - 195 Tonight - Velez


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 20:07:17 -0400
 >Subject: SDI  - 195 Tonight

 >For those who may be interested, tonight's line-up includes:

 >Dave Furlotte
 >Palmiro Campagna
 >Joe Nickell [CSICOP]
 >Stanton T. Friedman
 >John Velez

 >You can listen from 10:00 p.m. Eastern via

 >http://www.cfrb.com

 >or CFRB 1010 AM - Toronto

 >ebk

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/

Hi Errol, All,

Great googa-mooga! Both Stanton and Joe came out swinging. It
opened up as a _heated_ discussion - right out of the gate. 0 to
60 in nothing flat! :)

The SurferNet server which provides the streaming audio was down
for the evening and I'm sure that at least half of the regular
listeners missed this ufological version of the 'Thrilla in
Manilla'.

The broadcast was (as per SDI's usual) interesting, informative
and entertaining. But it was also a real hum-dinger! Great
caller questions and comments as well. Not to be missed by
anyone.

Q. Where is the most dangerous place in the world to stand?

A. Between Joe (Wooden) Nickell, Stan (The Man) Friedman and a
live radio microphone!  <VBG>


Regards, ;)

John Velez, Contributing editor, SDI








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                    Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:26:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:19:49 -0400
Subject: Re:  Breakout Of The Fictions - Rimmer


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:38:12 -0400

 >>From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100

 >>Since a great planetary war was raging, intellectual life and
 >>literature and the arts had come almost to a stop, and
 >>therefore what little literary activity there was
 >>(particularly of the avant guard type) existed in the form of
 >>very few magazines, often of an A5 size, such as the British
 >>Lilliput and Men Only (this latter has no connection to its
 >>modern equivalent!) that could be carried in the map pocket
 >>of a military uniform. Short stories and short articles were
 >>all that existed practically for contemporary intellectual
 >>food, received and absorbed as it was under often very
 >>strenuous work and battle conditions

 >A remarkable notion.

 >In the United States, at least, intellectual and cultural life
 >continued throughout the war. Books and magazines were
 >published, radio stations stayed in business, newspapers
 >appeared every day (many more of them than are printed now,
 >since even medium-sized cities had two or more daily papers;
 >most now only have one).

 >I won't comment on the rest of Bennett's speculations. But some
 >of it, clearly, is based on imaginary history.

 >Greg Sandow

Very wise not to comment on Bennett's speculations, as they are
certainly based on an imaginary history of Britain during the
Second World War.

In Britain, far from coming to a halt, cultural life flourished
during the War. From the famous lunchtime concerts in the
National Gallery aimed at servicemen and war-workers, which
introduced thousands of people to classical music, to the
ubiquitous Penguin paperbacks which brought classic and modern
literature to a wide audience - and were ideally sized for
slipping into the pocket of a battledress - art and literature
was popularised as never before.

Some of this was deliberate government policy - educational
programmes for troops, that sort of thing - but a lot of it was
simply because people believed that a better sort of world was
going to emerge at the end of the War. OK, a lot of it was naive
and idealistic, and the reality proved less than the dream, but
to say that literature and the arts came to a stop during the
war is nonsense.

Despite that, British List subscribers are delighted to see Mr
Bennett's emergence.

A warning to Jerry Clark, though: now you're really going to see
some post-modernist literary criticism!


--

John Rimmer Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                    Scotland On Sunday: They're Out There

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 04:04:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:21:57 -0400
Subject: Scotland On Sunday: They're Out There


Source: Scotland On Sunday,

http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=3D706632002

Stig

***

Sun 30 Jun 2002

They're out there

Alex Massie

**

HURRAH! At last a sport at which Scotland -- yes, poor old peely-
wally Scotland -- can claim to be the world's best. Welcome,
people, to fantasy island. Or rather the crowded skies above,
er, Falkirk. Now, lesser nations might sniff at being the world
capital of UFO spotting -- for that is indeed the hitherto
unheralded and under-appreciated area in which we excel -- but
they are not the brave new Scotland where dreams are dreamt and
the unthinkable happens on a near-daily basis.

VisitScotland -- never knowingly under-gimmicked -- commissioned
one of those fun-but-essentially-trivial surveys that proved to
their and the media's delight that Scotland is the UFO capital
of the world. By any measure, be that unexplained phenomena
appearing per kilometre or head of population -- Scotland trumps
the rest of the planet in its appeal for visitors from outer
space. Whaur's yer fancy continental sunshine the noo? You can
keep it=85

Given the much-publicised troubles afflicting VisitScotland it
must be no minor consolation to think that, when it comes to
inter-galactic travel at least, the rest of the world can only
look on with slack-jawed awe at our success. More than 300
sightings of supposed UFOs are reported in Scottish skies each
year.

The trouble is of course, that aliens, as they say on Mars,
butter no parsnips. Or anything else for that matter.
Unaccountably they appear reluctant to dip into their doubtless
well-lined pockets and spend, spend, spend. Perhaps they have no
need for plastic tartan clad bagpiping dolls made in Taiwan in
outer space, nor for Nessie bubble bath.

Nonetheless, hopes are high that UFO spotting can become another
arrow in Scotland's quiver of tourist attractions. To that end,
Mercat Tours, who currently offer trips exploring Edinburgh's
gory (and glorious) past and the battlefields of the First and
Second World Wars are exploring the possibility of establishing
UFO-spotting tours around the Central Belt.

So, before you can say "watch out, freaks about", hordes of
bearded, sandal- wearing geography teachers from the English
Midlands will be scuttling up to Scotland to peer anxiously up
at our crowded skies. "Come to Scotland: where even misfits can
feel at home" as the slogan will doubtless put it. As John
McNeil of VisitScotland is quick -- perhaps too quick -- to point
out, this survey cost the agency next to no money and was very
much a "tongue in cheek look at what Scotland has to offer". In
publicity terms it appears to have paid off as TV crews and
radio stations from the United States to Japan, via,
inexplicably, Iceland have flocked to the story as keenly as
UFOs are rumoured to congregate in the Falkirk Triangle around
Bonnybridge.

"Scotland is already a magical, mysterious place, and anything
that gets Scotland up the destination ladder has to be a good
thing," says McNeil.

"People come here for different reasons to do different things
and lots of people are interested in the paranormal so we're
tapping into that extra market." Which is all very well and good
but it would test the patience and charity of a saint to
describe Bonnybridge and its surrounding area as one of God's
greater moments in the creation of all things bright and
beautiful.

VisitScotland are made of sterner stuff however and McNeil
gamely contends, "Bonnybridge is a nice wee town." This advocacy
becomes only marginally less convincing a moment later when he
adds "and it's only a few miles from Edinburgh".

Bonnybridge, in truth, is not a glamorous location for anything,
let alone UFO spotting. Despite local councillor Billy
Buchanan's game efforts to twin the town with Roswell in New
Mexico -- the spiritual home of UFO enthusiasts across the world
for the supposed capture and subsequent experimentation on alien
life forms in 1947 -- Bonnybridge lacks a certain glamour.
Buchanan, who has more than a dozen sightings to his credit,
likes to get round this by arguing, "the Muslims have Mecca;
UFOs have Bonnybridge". And he has grandiose plans for a multi-
million pound visitor centre that would be the last word in UFOs
and the paranormal. Well, people laughed at Walt Disney when he
proposed that Mickey Mouse could become a theme park.

But, easy though it is to sneer at the convictions of UFO
enthusiasts, there is an earnest doggedness about the
Bonnybridge believers that commands a certain respect. Too many
of them are too convinced by what they have seen to discount
their tales automatically. The alternative, which is of course
always possible, is that half the town has gone stark, raving
bonkers.

Like many forces for good the internet attracts its fair share
of the mentally bewildered. What, after all, is one to make of
the extraordinary tales of "Runcorn Flying Triangles", "Pennine
Way Floating Phalanxes" and, most mysteriously of all, "Wallasey
Rotating Clam Shells?" (OK, I made one of those up -- but only, I
promise, one). And this is merely the beginning of it all.
Before long you're reading about "Gateways" and "Parallel
Consciousnesses" and all manner of extra-terrestrial thought
processes: it's at this point that your mind begins to boggle.

Which makes it something of a relief to turn to the guid folk of
Bonnybridge. Many who claim to have seen unexplained phenomena
in the skies above the town are reluctant to let their names be
known for fear that they will be pilloried by their more
sceptical neighbours (especially those neighbours who reside in
Falkirk), but the manageress in Omar's General Store has few
doubts about what she saw. "It was about five years ago that I
saw a ball of different colours, greens and blues, just
flickering between the hills. It was there for about five
minutes before it just went away very fast. It was hovering
between the houses and was too low for an aeroplane. Someone in
Stenhousemuir saw something in the sky that night as well. There
are lots of good citizens who have seen things in the sky -- not
just nutters, you know?"

Across the road at the Caf=E9 du Bonnie (yes, really) Betty Stirrat
agrees. "I've never seen anything myself but my niece has and so
many people have seen things that there must be something,
although I don't know what it could be."

Others, however, are more sceptical. The waitress at the du
Bonnie remarks pithily that "I think it's all a load of crap.
That's all I have to say," while along the road at the Jet
petrol station Jacqueline Stewart remarks, "Until I see
something myself I'm not going to believe it. The only UFOs I've
seen have been a few coming out of the club on a Saturday
night."

The Bonnybridge phenomenon began in 1991 at the Forge restaurant
near Camelon. Neil Malcolm recalls seeing a great white light
the size of a jumbo jet, that began to follow him as he drove.
Since then the family have seen numerous other unexplained and
unidentifiable flying objects. Neil's younger brother Craig has
amassed 13 hours of video footage that he claims support his
sense that something strange is happening in the Stirlingshire
skies. "I sent the videos off to America to have them analysed
to check that I wasn't going crazy. They came back saying that
it was 95% unexplained."

"The strangest thing that I've seen was in 1996 when me, my
mother, father and fianc=E9e were driving along and suddenly saw
this thing hovering just above the ground. It was about the size
of a jumbo jet without wings. We stopped the car and got out and
the next thing we knew these two balls of light came out of it
and began to come towards us. We jumped into the car and then it
just vanished." So far, so normal. The X-Files bit of this eerie
experience however, kicks in now.

"We didn't have a camcorder, but noticed a red BMW with private
registration plates had stopped. The guys inside it looked like
government agents -- they had black leather jackets, that sort of
thing -- and said they hadn't seen it. The next day the police
came to my work and started asking questions." By the end of the
week Malcolm had lost his job. Coincidence or conspiracy? The
choice is yours but there's no gainsaying him or his family or
persuading them that they have not experienced the strangest of
close encounters.

Since then however he tries never to be without his camcorder,
just in case he has another sighting. "Believe what you want to
believe but if I'm crazy there must be a hell of a lot of crazy
people out there."

Malcolm's father, James, points out that you can't see
electricity but that doesn't stop it from existing. "People talk
about spaceships, but we've never claimed that. It's just
strange things in the sky. We've seen enough now to satisfy
ourselves and I don't care now what anyone else thinks. Anyway,
if we knew everything it wouldn't be worth being here."

This is perhaps the enthusiasts' strongest argument. Ninety-five
per cent of supposed UFO sightings might be easily explained but
there's no way of proving that UFOs don't exist, nor doubting
that there is an element of comfortable arrogance in the notion
there cannot be life outwith earth's atmosphere.

Mankind has made enough mistakes and conventional wisdom has
been proved to be profoundly ignorant often enough in the past
for it to be less than inconceivable that the sceptics, the
realists among us who view all this UFO talk as so much hokum,
are completely, utterly and splendidly wrong.

Bonnybridge may be a comparative newcomer at the UFO races but
other areas of Scotland have proved fertile ground for sightings
in the past. In the 1950s Dumfriesshire proved popular but by
the 1970s the centre of UFO activity had appeared to shift to
the Edinburgh area. Today Bonnybridge and, of all places, East
Kilbride, report the greatest number of sightings. "It's
difficult to be sure why this activity seems to be focused in
certain areas," says Ron Halliday, author of The A-Z of
Paranormal Scotland, "but that's often the case with paranormal
experiences. It could be that these places become some kind of
gateway into other dimensions and that these images are
therefore from the future or other worlds." The normal
explanations for the Bonnybridge sightings are the proximity of
Edinburgh airport and the gasworks at nearby Grangemouth.

"I think it's all credible in the sense that people genuinely
believe they have had these experiences, even if the vast
majority do have clear and obvious explanations. But while there
is understandable scepticism -- aliens don't land in Princes
Street Gardens or places like that every day -- people do have
close-up sightings of what are clearly non-human objects. You
can't dismiss the whole subject just because of that scepticism
people have," says Halliday.

And, after all, UFOs today may simply be the successors to the
fairies and goblins that have long featured prominently in
Scottish folk culture. Of course being a poet or novelist does
not preclude credulity when confronted by evidence of the
supernatural -- Arthur Conan Doyle after all was a staunch
believer in spiritualism and the ability to contact the dead.
Sir Walter Scott, James Hogg, John Buchan and Robert Louis
Stevenson were all fascinated by the paranormal and the
supernatural, while the ancient Border ballads are steeped in
the stuff. The Queen of Elfland abounds and fairies (evil
spirits rather than pretty little things with wings) dance to
her tune on a regular basis.

And, indeed, true believers in life in outer space beyond our
ken could point to the ease with which the word's major
religions have convinced millions around the globe to believe in
wholly -- or, if you must, largely unsubstantiated theories. If
Christ can rise from the dead why can't there be UFOs in
Bonnybridge? The latter is not necessarily a more outrageous
assertion.

Nonetheless, for all the protestations of the convinced
minority, only a certain kind of mind can make the leap of faith
to truly, madly, deeply believe in UFOs. The rest of us may
continue to mock and to smirk but that seems unlikely to trouble
Bonnybridge's stouthearted citizens. They know, deep down, that
their plain wee town is something rather special. Who, after
all, needs coaches laden with pensioners when your tourists hail
from outer space?

**

=A92002 scotsman.com








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                        Re: Birnes on Corso? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:40:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:25:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso? - Gates


Somebody got me the below... I thought Listers would be
interested in excerpts of this apparent interview between Birnes
and somebody else back in '97 or thereabouts. My comments are in
brackets

Out guest tonight is William J. Birnes, co-author with retired
Col. Philip Corso of the "Day After Roswell." The latter is no
in its 6th printing and I understand was briefly on the NY Times
bestseller list. Could you tell us how you got involved with
this project? Did Corso approach you or vice versa?

Birnes: I was originally retained by a motion picture company
to interview Col. Corso about the missing prisoners of war issue
in Korea and Vietnam. Through the course of our discussions,
Col. Corso and I began talking about military history,
especially as it regards the end of World War II and the German
scientific advances in flight and weaponry. Gradually our
discussions focused on Roswell and the role of Army R&D.

Question: And so how did the subject of UFOs and Roswell come
up? Whose idea was the book? Did Corso hesitate at that time
because Gen. Trudeau was still alive?

Birnes: Finally, Col. Corso dropped the bombshell, preceded by
his sending me articles from the Army about the technological
development of lasers, irradiated food, directed particle beam
weapons and the like. He said, "You know, don't you, that a
famous German scientist Hermann Oberth said that 'We were
helped,' and me meant helped by extraterrestrials?" I was
astonished. Then he began to explain, making a long story very
short, what the role of Army R&D had and how the Foreign
Technology worked. That's it. From there we decided to begin a
book on Roswell and the publisher suggested we do the Roswell
book first.

Birnes contd: Corso began writing his memoirs in 1993, shortly
after Gen. Trudeau died. He began writing as a way of keeping
the records straight, but partly at the suggestion of the now
deceased General Trudeau who had encouraged Corso to keep a
running record and to publish it after Trudeau died. So that'w
what Corso began. He worked on it for two years until 1995, and
then we began assembling his memoirs into five separate
manuscripts, one of which was the Roswell book.

[Apparently we have a total of 5 books, with Roswell being one,
and the manuscript on all the other 4 are also apparently
already done. One wonders when the other so called manuscript
books are going to come forth. I also recall some tale or story
attributed to Corso Jr about how in 2003 we have have UFO
technology or something like that]

Question: How did the writing process between the two of you
work? Did you interview him on audio or videotape? Did he ever
supply any original documents that would confirm his rather
remarkable story?

Birnes: Videotape! Prior to beginning the manuscript, we
interviewed Col. Corso on video, fourteen hours of which exist
at the movie studio. Thereafter, I worked from Col. Corso's
copious notes, documents that he provided, and material that he
requested from Army sources. If I had specific questions, I'd
ask them. Then, the colonel and I met and went over the
manuscript in draft form. He made changes, corrections,
revisions, etc.

[So the Col is on 14 hours of video tape, also they both met and
went over the manuscript in draft form where he made changes,
corrections and revisions. Yet Corso, when challenged about
certain areas of the book at one of his speaking engagements
supposedly claimed that Birnes had made errors in the book blah
blah blah. Wouldn't it be rich to see the 14 hours of video
tape. Perhaps we could get some insight to the NAZI time
machine Corso mentioned]

Question: Several instances in the book seem to be direct
quotes from the report Corso reportedly wrote for Gen. Trudeau,
also direct quotes from Trudeau's own unpublished autobography.
Do either of these documents exist?.

Birnes: There were some documents to confirm the story, but
they tracked the history of the technological development of
lasers, for example, to show how the Army helped spur the
research and development. Nothing, of course, mentioned UFOs.
Yes, Col. Corso's reports exist as to Trudeau's memoirs. The
reports are exactly as they are set forth in the book. They were
never meant for attribution or distribution beyond Gen. Trudeau.

[In essence they were unable to get any supporting documentation
that mentioned UFO/ET. Kind of like UFO researchers then and
now; still can't get any documentation that directly links Corso
to ET]

Question: As you're no doubt aware, Corso's version of Roswell
differs from what has been previously published. For example, he
has Jesse Marcel at a crash site where bodies were recovered,
something Marcel never mentioned, despite the numerous times he
was interviewed.

Birnes: The book's version of Roswell is simply a compilation
of Roswell stories as a background to what happened later. In
fact, it was added at the very end because the publisher
believed that not enough readers were familiar with the basic
story. So I imagine there are hundreds of disagreements between
the story in the first chapter and other versions of the story.
But is meant to be only the most general of introductions.

[Apparently the books version of Roswell was never meant to be
accurate but a general story about the incident.]


Question: Virtually everyone else has testified that any
material was flown to Wright Field in Dayton, which makes sense.
Corso has it coming through Fort Riley, Kansas, via truck.
Charles Moore has recently pointed out that Fort Riley was 200
miles off the beaten path back then.

Birnes: I asked Col. Corso about this and he said that some of
the material was indeed flown -- other eyewitnesses have told me
the same thing -- and some of it was trucked. Back then,
according to Col.Corso, Fort Riley would have been the natural
stopping off point for Army truckers to spend the night. Again,
Col. Corso makes sense when he says that the way the Army does
business is to rely on redundancy. So they trucked some of the
material, flew some of the material. I don't know who or where,
but there was another source that I encountered who seemed
amazed that I had learned, from the colonel, that some of the
crash debris was loaded on trucks and driven to Ohio.

Question: Final question: Corso's military record has recently
been posted on the Internet. His final Pentagon assignment
apparently lasted only 90 days, instead of the two years implied
by the book. That's a pretty brief amount of time in which Corso
claims to have changed the course of modern history, not only
saving us from alien invasion, but leading directly to the
collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War.


Birnes: I recently saw the record as well and have forwarded a
copy to Col. Corso. Whatever the record that turned up on the
Internet says, it says. I can only respond that I've seen Col.
Corso's secret Senate testimony transcripts about the CIA's
penetration by the KGB, and the transcripts IN 1962 identify
Col. Corso as the Deputy Director of Army R & D. So unless
there's some code in the record as it appears on the Internet
that I don't understand, the Col. was in R & D for two years
from 1961 through early 1963 when he went to the Senate Internal
Government Security Investigations Subcommittee.

End of Excerpt.

Cheers,

Robert