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   Jul

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Jul 2002

  Jul 1:

   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [21]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [32]
   First Mutilation Case in Corrientes Argentina - Scott Corrales [29]
   Argentines Blame Mutes on 'Red Magic' - Scott Corrales [57]
   Cattle Mutilations in Carlos Casares Argentina - Scott Corrales [55]
   Many Argentines Believe Mutes Will Never Be - Scott Corrales [133]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [64]
   Re: Breakout of the Fictions - Bennett - Colin Bennett [56]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 7.1.02 - Paul Anderson [111]
   CCCRN News: Duncan, BC & Mansfield, Ontario #1, #2 - Paul Anderson [45]

  Jul 2:

   Animals Blamed For Argentine Cattle Mutes - Stig Agermose [38]
   Montana Cattle Mutes Baffle Authorities - Stig Agermose [77]
   SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit? - Stig Agermose [92]
   Tens Of Billions Of 'Earths' In Milky Way - Stig Agermose [98]
   NIDS? - Robert Gates [9]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [54]
   Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice - Scott Corrales [43]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [19]
   Argentina: Full Version of SENASA Press Release - Scott Corrales [107]
   Re: Birnes on Corso? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [20]
   The OZ files Site - Bill Chalker [62]

  Jul 3:

   The Oz Files Web Site - Bill Chalker [4]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [230]
   Re: SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [106]
   Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall - Richard Hall [67]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall - Richard Hall [36]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Reason - Catherine Reason [62]
   Re: Birnes on Corso? - Hall - Richard Hall [28]
   EW: 30 Billion Earth-Like Exoplanets - Kurt Jonach [41]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: NIDS? - Cameron - From: Grant Cameron [20]
   Re: Report On USUFOIRC Conference In Tennessee - Stig Agermose [87]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Gates - Robert Gates [125]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number - John Hayes [625]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice - David Acres [33]
   Spanish UFO Book Again Available - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [8]
   Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [64]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert - Amy Hebert [64]
   Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found "Unconvincing" - Scott Corrales
   [55]
   Hypothesis Generates Doubts In Argentina - Scott Corrales [42]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Randle - Kevin Randle [53]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hall - Richard Hall [44]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [67]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice - Bruce Maccabee [43]
   Re: Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [15]
   Reqest For Assistance - Royce J. Myers III [11]
   Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Frank Warren [40]
   Re: P47 - Arnold as a 'Boise Boys' Hoax - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle
   [33]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young - Bob Young [35]
   International UN UFO Petition Progress Report - John Velez [64]
   Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr. - James Mortellaro Sr. [42]
   Re: Request For Assistance - Velez - John Velez [28]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found - Ed Gehrman [97]
   Filer's Files #27 - 2002 - George A. Filer [516]
   Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange - Alfred Lehmberg [90]
   Re: Birnes on Corso? - Velez - John Velez [61]
   Magonia Supplement No 39 - John Rimmer [361]
   Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [108]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [36]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Re: Request For Assistance - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [31]
   Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [35]
   Re: Breakout of the Fictions - Bennett - Colin Bennett [138]

  Jul 4:

   Roswell Festival - 2002 - Stig Agermose [33]
   Fantasy Prone Personality Types - John Auchettl [40]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found - Bruce Maccabee [32]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [43]
   freedominfo.org Is Now Online - Larry W. Bryant [71]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [207]
   Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There' - Stig Agermose [40]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [68]
   Object(s) In Coos Bay Oregon Sky - GT McCoy [40]
   Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange - Sean Jones [12]
   Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Acres - David Acres [14]
   Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser - Jim Speiser [15]
   Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange - - Eleanor White [23]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Reason - Catherine Reason [78]
   Re: Birnes on Corso? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [57]
   Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report - Kevin Randle [34]
   Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange - Alfred Lehmberg [47]
   Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Acres - David Acres [21]
   Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Hatch - Larry Hatch [23]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [26]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark - Jerome Clark [33]
   Saucers On The Rise Again Over Sri Lanka - Stig Agermose [39]
   Cheshire, UK UFOS - Stig Agermose [52]
   More From 'The Scotsman' On UFO Wave - Stig Agermose [86]
   Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr. - James Mortellaro Sr. [38]
   Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report - Joachim Koch [66]
   Larry Warren: In Perspective - James Easton [202]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hall - Richard Hall [32]

  Jul 5:

   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason - Catherine Reason [101]
   Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr. - Davey - Virginia Davey [16]
   Bonnybridge's UFO Links Prove Tourist Magnet - Stig Agermose [35]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [211]
   July 5 UFO Day On History Channel - Stig Agermose [117]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young - Bob Young [13]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert - Amy Hebert [38]
   Meteor? - Jim Mortellaro [17]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [369]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [146]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young - Bob Young [19]
   Two New Reports On NIDS Website - Colm Kelleher [52]
   Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report - John Velez [108]
   Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report - John Velez [54]
   UpDates Spams McCoy? - GT McCoy [8]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [44]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [50]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [212]
   Russia Proposes Sending Team To Mars - GT McCoy [9]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [35]

  Jul 6:

   Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [34]
   MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO Symposium - Stig Agermose [27]
   Bassett Most Important Environmental Candidate In - Stig Agermose [146]
   Betty Hill On MUFON Convention - Stig Agermose [23]
   Re: Visitors Flock To Roswell's UFO Festival - - Stig Agermose [50]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak - David Rudiak [628]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason - Catherine Reason [47]
   Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Warren - Frank Warren [54]
   Re: Meteor? - Young - Bob Young [32]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [83]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [77]
   The Great Scareship Mystery? - Roy Hale [15]

  Jul 7:

   Argentina's INTA Agrees With SENASA Findings - Scott Corrales [40]
   UFO Over Patagones Argentina - Scott Corrales [49]
   Meteor & El Al Flight Over Ukraine - GT McCoy [9]
   Re: Meteor? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [79]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young - Bob Young [26]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 361 - Edoardo Russo [122]
   Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website - Robert Gates [17]
   Roswell Celebrates UFO Landing - Stig Agermose [35]
   Re: Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There' - Robert Gates [28]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [58]
   CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness - Paul Anderson [262]
   CCCRN News: Amazing New 740' Formation at - Paul Anderson [42]
   Mutes? - Elaine Tassin [10]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser - Jim Speiser [36]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice - Jim Speiser [19]
   Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice - Jim Speiser [20]

  Jul 8:

   Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [65]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #368 - From: Alfred Lehmberg [112]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Sandow - Greg Sandow [33]
   Argentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays" - Scott Corrales [107]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser - Jim Speiser [35]
   Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website - Kelleher - Colm Kelleher [46]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [37]
   Robert Gates Please Phone Home! - Richard Hall [5]

  Jul 9:

   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason - Catherine Reason [54]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [111]
   Foo Fighter Footnote - Dennis Stacy [43]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [58]
   Chupacabras Blamed For Lamb Death - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [80]
   Re: Mutes? - Belzil - Fernand Belzil [31]
   Re: Robert Gates Please Phone Home! - Gates - RGates8254@aol.com [22]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Gates - Robert Gates [65]
   Secrecy News -- 07/08/02 - Steven Aftergood [105]
   Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [51]
   Re: rgentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays" - - Bruce Maccabee [96]
   Re: CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness - Heath - Gord Heath [34]
   Re: Mutes? - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [57]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Easton - James Easton [47]
   Marian Apparitions Anthology - Joaquim Fernandes [27]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [57]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates - Robert Gates [52]
   Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Randle - Kevin Randle [34]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [192]
   On the Subject of Death Rays - Jsmortell@aol.com [36]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [71]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser - Jim Speiser [13]
   Re: MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO - Bill Hamilton [67]
   CCCRN News: Circles in PEI & NB - Paul Anderson [50]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark - Jerome Clark [123]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [57]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [23]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason - Catherine Reason [57]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hall - Richard Hall [38]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hall - Richard Hall [33]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [166]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [204]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [40]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [50]
   Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [74]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [27]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Jones - Steve Jones [47]
   The Universe Viewed as a Cybernetic Dream - Mac Tonnies [45]

  Jul 10:

   New Article Suggests 'Face' Is Living Thing (!) - Mac Tonnies [32]
   Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Fleming - Lan Fleming [60]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser - Jim Speiser [55]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser - Jim Speiser [24]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser - Jim Speiser [62]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [50]
   Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [42]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [97]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [14]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Gates - Robert Gates [22]
   Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Gates - Robert Gates [61]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [64]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [59]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [24]
   Animal Mutilations in Rufino Argentina - Scott Corrales [60]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark - Jerome Clark [54]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark - Jerome Clark [37]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [50]
   Another Mutilated Cow in San Francisco Argentina - Scott Corrales [34]
   Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA Report - Scott Corrales
   [62]
   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Friedman - Stan Friedman [16]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [24]
   Goats & Cows Mutilated At Leales INTA Argentina - Scott Corrales [23]
   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [35]
   Filer's Files #28 - 2002 - George A. Filer [517]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett - Colin Bennett [224]

  Jul 11:

   Sri Lankan UFOs Confirmed By Team Of Observers - Chris Evers [38]
   Secrecy News -- 07/10/02 - Steven Aftergood [99]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Jim Speiser [60]
   Roswell Cover-Up In Spielberg Series 'Taken' - Stig Agermose [53]
   Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles - Stig Agermose [27]
   Mutilated Cow In Chascomus Argentina - Scott Corrales [32]
   Mutilated Dog In Catamarca Argentina - Scott Corrales [13]
   Argentine Animal Mutilations? - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [11]
   For The Record: Animal Mutilations - UFO UpDates - Toronto [411]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Sean Jones - Sean Jones [101]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [99]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [21]
   Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Grant Cameron [262]
   Investigation Of A Mutilation In Cache County Utah - Colm Kelleher [73]

  Jul 12:

   Gesundt's 'Truth' Revealed - Jim Mortellaro [15]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Harney - John Harney [26]
   Re: Mantell - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [68]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Re: Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA - Bruce Maccabee [26]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [26]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hall - Richard Hall [42]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [163]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [44]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [138]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sandow - Greg Sandow [32]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Speiser - Jim Speiser [28]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser - Jim Speiser [25]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [57]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser - Jim Speiser [34]
   Re: Mantell - Clark - Jerome Clark [52]
   Sighting Central Texas, 1931 - Stig Agermose [70]
   Re: Mantell - Velez - John Velez [133]
   Re: Australian National UFO Conference 2002 - - Diane Harrison [26]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [28]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez - John Velez [73]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #22 - Alfred Lehmberg [160]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [287]

  Jul 13:

   Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [125]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [16]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Fernandes - Joaquim Fernandes [61]
   Re: Mantell - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [90]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [74]
   Secrecy News -- 07/12/02 - Steven Aftergood [92]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [61]
   CI: Russians Urge International Manned Mars - Mac Tonnies [52]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [54]
   Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [40]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle - Kevin Randle [97]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Myers - Royce J. Myers [99]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez - John Velez [85]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors - Wendy Connors [30]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 28 - John Hayes [593]

  Jul 14:

   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [45]
   Re: Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles - - Paul Anderson [42]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow - Greg Sandow [52]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sandow - Greg Sandow [63]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [57]
   Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Cameron - Grant Cameron [36]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle - Kevin Randle [13]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez - John Velez [91]
   Peer Review - Jsmortell@aol.com [70]
   Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports - Stig Agermose [96]
   Welsh Family Abducted By Alien Cruise Ship - Stig Agermose [50]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett - Colin Bennett [128]
   Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Hatch - Larry Hatch [57]
   Argentine Government Study Suspects Toxic Presence - Scott Corrales
   [140]
   Did Toxic Agent Cause Argentine Animal Deaths? - Scott Corrales [30]
   Colon Joins Argentine Mutilated Cow Club - Scott Corrales [27]
   Strange Lights At The Edge Of Argentine Lagoon - Scott Corrales [21]
   March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting? - Stanton Friedman [10]
   CCCRN News: 'Pictogram' Erin Township, Ontario - Paul Anderson [51]
   Re: CCCRN News: 'Circles' Formation - Exeter, - Paul Anderson [57]

  Jul 15:

   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser - Jim Speiser [24]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [45]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [88]
   'Beyond' Website - Philip Mantle [6]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [15]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [29]
   UFO Buzzes Villarica, Chile - Scott Corrales [69]
   UFOs on the Prowl in Entre Rios Argentina - Scott Corrales [34]
   Sheep Found With Head Mutilations In Uruguay - Scott Corrales [19]
   New Animal Mutilations in Argentina - Scott Corrales [16]
   Apropos Trindade Isle - Richard Hall [15]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones - Sean Jones [21]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [41]
   Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [45]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle - Kevin Randle [125]

  Jul 16:

   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [46]
   Re: Mantell - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [56]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [21]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [20]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors - Wendy Connors [42]
   Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Larry Bryant [48]
   Re: March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports - Hatch - Larry Hatch [35]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 362 - Edoardo Russo [117]
   NICAP's Original Rebuttal To The Condon Study - Stig Agermose [21]
   Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War' - Stig Agermose [53]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason - Catherine Reason [31]
   Re: Apropos Trindade Isle - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [25]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez - John Velez [78]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow - Greg Sandow [68]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Roberts - Andy Roberts [211]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [42]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young - Bob Young [18]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White - Eleanor White [49]
   Re: Mantell - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [31]
   UFO Over Gobernador Ugarte Argentina - Scott Corrales [30]
   Flying Entity in Adelia Maria Cordoba, Argentina - Scott Corrales [87]
   Woman Sees "Green Dwarf" & Faints - Scott Corrales [28]

  Jul 17:

   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors - Wendy Connors [46]
   Trindade Isle Witnesses - Richard Hall [50]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [33]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [33]
   Re: Apropo Translators - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: Mantell - Ledger - Don Ledger [18]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [98]
   Secrecy News -- 07/16/02 - Steven Aftergood [133]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Speiser - Jim Speiser [32]
   Setting The Record Straight - John Velez [79]
   SETI Expects ET Contact Within 25 Years - Kurt Jonach - The Electric
   Warrior [102]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White - Eleanor White [41]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 29 - John Hayes [624]
   'Mothman And Other Curious Encounters' - Loren Coleman [78]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [52]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow - Greg Sandow [65]
   Re: Setting The Record Straight - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [23]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [110]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Young - Bob Young [38]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [93]
   Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - David Clarke [55]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young - Bob Young [31]
   Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Young - Bob Young [36]
   Re: Trindade Isle Witnesses - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [35]
   Filer's Files #29 - 2002 - George A. Filer [540]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White - Eleanor White [114]
   E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - Nick Balaskas [47]
   Re: Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War' - Hebert - Amy Hebert [23]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Speiser - Jim Speiser [19]

  Jul 18:

   Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel - Don Ledger [92]
   Secrecy News -- 07/17/02 - Steven Aftergood [108]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [88]
   Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - Acres - David Acres [34]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White - Eleanor White [28]
   Re: Filer's Files #29-2002 - Velez - John Velez [44]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [52]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle - Kevin Randle [172]
   When Flesh And Blood Fell From The Sky - David Acres [153]
   Alien Probe? - David Acres [95]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [36]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow - Greg Sandow [24]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow - Greg Sandow [104]
   Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Pflock - Karl Pflock [7]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [84]
   Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Frank Warren [12]
   Re: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Filer's Files #29-2002 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [41]

  Jul 19:

   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Lowe - Adam Lowe [13]
   UK Abductees Needed - Philip Mantle [30]
   Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Friedman - Stan Friedman [20]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White - Eleanor White [60]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Young - Bob Young [23]
   D2003 Media Update - 07-18-02 - Stephen G. Bassett [100]
   Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [13]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [113]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [143]
   Re: Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel - Stan Friedman [37]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Acres - David Acres [29]
   Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - - Jim Mortellaro [56]
   Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - - Bill Hamilton [76]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming - Lan Fleming [19]
   Re: Disney Researcher Joins Spy Agency - Cameron - Grant Cameron [34]

  Jul 20:

   Seven Mutilated Animals in Yatai, Argentina - Scott Corrales [91]
   Argentina: Cows Found Inside Water Tank - Scott Corrales [70]
   Large Owls Attack Aircraft, People and Cattle - Scott Corrales [35]
   Mutilated Calf in Bragado, Argentina - Scott Corrales [27]
   Rendlesham Breakthrough - Tim Matthews [8]
   Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - Robert Gates [311]
   Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White - Eleanor White [28]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Novak - Paul Novak [16]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [40]
   Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes - Bob Pratt [14]
   Kinross/Sault Ste. Marie Missing F-89 - Gord Heath [116]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren - Frank Warren [42]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren - Frank Warren [37]
   Lakenheath Teletype Reports? - Yasunori Kuramoto [5]
   Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming - Lan Fleming [55]
   Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Mantle - Philip Mantle [33]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Novak - Paul Novak [39]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [57]
   Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - Bott - Murray Bott [44]

  Jul 21:

   CCCRN News Release: Canadian Crop Circle Reports - Paul Anderson [104]
   News Items Wanted For 'Beyond' - Philip Mantle [9]
   Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - - Dave Haith [76]
   Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem - Royce J. Myers [35]

  Jul 22:

   50th Anniversary Of DC Sightings - Bruce Maccabee [8]

  Jul 21:

   Alien Armada! - UFO UpDates - Toronto [353]
   Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - - Robert Gates [79]
   Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [100]
   Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Clarke - David Clarke [24]
   Washington Post UFO Story - Kevin Randle [7]
   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle - Kevin Randle [77]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren - Frank Warren [101]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Hall - Richard Hall [65]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [57]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming - Lan Fleming [87]
   Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - Jerome Clark [29]
   CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in Ontario - Paul Anderson
   [82]
   New UFO-Related Drawings Posted! - Mac Tonnies [7]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Acres - David Acres [55]

  Jul 22:

   BUFOSC'S Rendlesham FOI Breakthrough - Eric Morris [66]
   Re: Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [36]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren - Frank Warren [100]
   CIA Freedom-of-DISinformation - Larry W. Bryant [63]
   Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - - Robert Gates [81]
   Monkeyman Is Back - Karl Rotstan [29]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Kelly Peterborough
   [53]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [27]

  Jul 23:

   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [63]
   Re: Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem - - Larry Hatch [29]
   EW: Washington DC UFO Sightings, Fifty Years Later - Kurt Jonach - The
   Electric Warrior [80]
   Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday? - Scott Corrales [51]
   Cattle Mutilations In La Troja Argentina - Scott Corrales [73]
   Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in - Kevin Randle [40]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [41]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [25]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [31]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Richard Hall [45]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Harney [33]

  Jul 24:

   Argentina: UFO Organization Rep Visits 25 de Mayo - Scott Corrales [24]
   Argentina: Residents of Formosa Claim Having Seen - Scott Corrales [46]
   Argentina: Commotion Over UFO Sighting in Southern - Scott Corrales
   [35]
   Argentina: UFOs in Chacabuco? - Scott Corrales [37]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Velez [73]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [35]
   Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Frank Warren [38]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jan Aldrich [41]
   Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in - Jim Speiser [36]
   Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [38]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [43]
   Secrecy News -- 07/19/02 - Steven Aftergood [123]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [61]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [45]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [56]
   Secrecy News -- 07/23/02 - Steven Aftergood [95]
   Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in - Paul Anderson [38]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [36]
   Argentina: Large UFO Causes Ground Effects - Scott Corrales [82]
   Re: CCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in - Kevin Randle [15]
   Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Randle - Kevin Randle [41]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 30 - John Hayes [661]
   Uh Oh! - UFO UpDates - Toronto [69]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Randle - Kevin Randle [60]
   Setting the Record Straight - Again! - John Velez [71]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Warren - Frank Warren [20]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [65]
   Roswell Honored By Civic Group - Stig Agermose [28]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [26]
   Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twining - Stig Agermose [27]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [31]
   China's Extraordinary Development Attracting ET? - Stig Agermose [68]
   USA Today: UFO Event Visited By Six 'Unknowns' - Stig Agermose [34]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [108]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [78]
   More On Six 'Unknowns' - Agermose - Stig Agermose [50]
   Filer's Files # 30 - 2002 - George A. Filer [519]
   Hundreds Of ET Researchers In Bonnybridge - Stig Agermose [17]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [44]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [27]
   Re: Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday? - Velez - John Velez [32]

  Jul 25:

   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [38]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [95]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Novak - Paul Novak [64]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [154]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [122]
   Pravda: The Lacerta File I - Stig Agermose [64]
   'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts - Stig Agermose [66]
   Intricate Crop Circle 'No Hoax' - Stig Agermose [33]
   More On Wisconsin Event & Six 'Unknowns' - Stig Agermose [88]
   rop Circle In Basel Area - Stig Agermose [49]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [24]
   NASA Needs Course Shift - Stig Agermose [105]
   Why ET Hasn't Called - Stig Agermose [96]
   Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [47]
   Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [76]
   Re: Uh Oh! - Acres - David Acres [22]
   SETI's 'Holy Grail' Found In Deep Space - Stig Agermose [44]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [30]
   CI: Mars Odyssey Takes Infrared Photo of Face & D&M - Mac Tonnies [33]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [88]
   Re: Setting the Record Straight - Again! - Gates - Robert Gates [34]
   Re: Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twinning - Hatch - Larry Hatch [31]
   Farnborough UFO Case 1950s - Roy Hale [20]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Young - Bob Young [13]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Roy Hale [24]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [172]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [90]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Linda Kerth [19]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [58]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [48]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [19]
   Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Hebert - Amy Hebert [9]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [74]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [38]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Hall - Richard Hall [22]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [21]

  Jul 26:

   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [35]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [34]
   Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Wendy Christensen [2]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [23]
   Re: Setting the Record Straight - Again! - - Josh Goldstein [48]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [112]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [115]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [246]
   Koreans Investigate Cloning By Raelians - Stig Agermose [90]
   NIDS On US Mutilation Wave - Stig Agermose [43]
   Re: 'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts - - Robert Gates [29]
   NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Jim Speiser [13]
   Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Hatch - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002 - Stonehill - Paul Stonehill [54]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Dave Morton [49]
   Gazecki's Crop Circle Documentary On US TV Tonight - Dave Haith [14]
   EW: Thermal Image Heats Mars Face Controversy - Kurt Jonach - The
   Electric Warrior [130]
   Rendlesham Documents Arrive - Eric Morris [12]
   Is E.T.'s World a Planet? - Stig Agermose [81]
   Shostak & Paleontologist Ward Discuss Aliens - Stig Agermose [9]
   Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Ledger - Don Ledger [19]
   Re: yewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - van - Jean van Gemert
   [18]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [54]
   The Jim Mortellaro Abduction Case - UFO UpDates - Toronto [34]
   Re: NIDS On US Mutilation Wave - Young - Bob Young [23]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [53]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [29]
   Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger - Don Ledger [46]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [62]
   Argentina: Updated List of Cattle Mutilations - Scott Corrales [32]
   Baltimore Sun On Argentine Mutilations - Stig Agermose [130]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [147]
   Re: Rendlesham Documents Arrive - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [23]
   Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [84]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [84]
   Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - - Bill Hamilton [10]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [12]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [36]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [58]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [24]
   Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002 - Filer - George A. Filer [53]
   Military Jets Chase Blue Light Over Maryland - Steven Kaeser [29]
   F-16 Scramble - ANG Admission & NORAD Involvement - Kenny Young [21]

  Jul 27:

   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [40]

  Jul 26:

   F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement - Kenny Young [28]

  Jul 27:

   Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Rimmer - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [97]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [104]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [56]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [30]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [16]
   Secrecy News -- 07/26/02 - Steven Aftergood [133]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Linda Kerth [54]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Linda Kerth [85]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [120]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [95]
   Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Speiser - Jim Speiser [57]
   F-16 Scramble - Expanded WTOP Article - Kenny Young [23]
   Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Hatch - Larry Hatch [40]

  Jul 26:

   Washington F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript - Kenny Young [55]

  Jul 27:

   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Kevin Randle [75]
   F-16 Scramble - CNN Report - Kenny Young [26]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [75]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [53]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Frank Warren [108]
   Washington Post On F-16s Pursuit - Judith Simons [47]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [61]
   F-16 Scramble - CNN Report - Kenny Young [26]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [53]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Frank Warren [108]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [43]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [75]
   Washington Post On F-16s Pursuit - Judith Simons [47]

  Jul 28:

   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [19]
   Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [23]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [40]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [50]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [20]
   Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger - Don Ledger [113]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement - - Steve Jones [55]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [105]
   CCCRN News: Large Pictogram Formation - - Paul Anderson [83]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jerome Clark [99]
   Carl Sagan On Extraterrestrial Contact, 1995 - Grant Cameron [226]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [94]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Deardorff [27]
   Re: Washington F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript - - Amy Hebert [15]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [81]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [23]
   Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [95]
   F-16 Scramble - Interview With NORAD Command - Kenny Young [91]
   FOIA Appeal July 27, 2002 - Larry W. Bryant [26]
   F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kenny Young [66]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Catherine Reason [31]

  Jul 29:

   5 More Mutilated Cows In Formosa Argentina - Scott Corrales [22]
   Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again - Scott Corrales [26]
   Another Argentine Bovine Mutilated - Scott Corrales [13]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [30]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement - Jim Speiser [19]
   Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger - Don Ledger [91]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Fleming - Lan Fleming [26]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [68]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [42]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer - John Rimmer [51]
   Cargo Cults - Dave Morton [66]
   FOIA Request 07-29-02 - Larry W. Bryant [50]
   Boeing Tries To Defy Gravity - Kelly Peterborough [45]
   New BLT Research Website - Dave Haith [10]
   Yellow/Gold Light/Sphere Near Camp David - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   CCCRN News: Update - Pictogram Formation in - Paul Anderson [49]
   Boeing & Gravity - UFO UpDates - Toronto [8]
   Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark - Jerome Clark [106]
   Terrace, British Columbia Sighting - Brian Vike [43]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [40]

  Jul 30:

   Secrecy News -- 07/29/02 - Steven Aftergood [103]
   Re: Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again - Speiser - Jim Speiser [18]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Speiser - Jim Speiser [39]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jim Speiser [30]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jean van Gemert [19]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jean van Gemert [38]
   Review: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Andy Roberts [39]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Warren - Frank Warren [19]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young - Bob Young [17]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Robert Gates [37]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Rimmer [19]
   BBC On Bonnybridge Skywatch - Stig Agermose [31]
   Rare Earth Debate Part 5: Elusive ET - Stig Agermose [254]
   AP On The National UFO Reporting Center - Stig Agermose [99]
   Burlington, Iowa Sightings From 1920 And Onwards - Stig Agermose [180]
   Crop Circles Baffle Farmer In Naperville, Illinois - Stig Agermose [35]
   Raelian Claims Her Company On Verge Of Human - Stig Agermose [74]
   UFO Lawn Ornament Is Political Statement - Stig Agermose [24]
   Michigan Man's Lawn Home To UFO Model - Stig Agermose [29]
   Shostak Reports On 'Bioastronomy 2002' - Stig Agermose [74]
   Re: New BLT Research Website - Myers - Royce J. Myers III - The
   Watchdog [20]
   On The Trindade Photos - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [8]
   Anti-Gravity Goes Mainstream - Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior [116]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - White - Eleanor White [18]
   Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Acres - David Acres [19]
   Internet Assault - The Next Wave - John Velez [20]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [31]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [33]
   Re: AP On The National UFO Reporting Center - White - Eleanor White
   [63]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - White - Eleanor White [17]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young - Bob Young [39]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - John Harney [57]

  Jul 31:

   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Jean van Gemert [20]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Ledger - Don Ledger [42]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young - Bob Young [26]
   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [23]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Roy Hale [11]
   Secrecy News -- 07/30/02 - Steven Aftergood [137]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 31 - John Hayes [649]
   Review: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Joe McGonagle [6]
   Assembly Required - Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog [1]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [36]
   Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - - Bob Young [41]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 1

              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:15:41 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:08:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:05:28 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

Lan, List, and Readers,

 >On the subject of the alleged tape with flowers, is there any
 >evidence that there was a 'scotch tape' shortage during World
 >War II that forced the Army to get tape for its radar reflectors
 >from toy companies?

Obviously, you are unfamilar with government contracts.

The low-bidder chooses most of the material. Unless it was
specified that only a certain type of tape could be used and no
substitutions were permitted, they could substitute tape with
pinkish-purplish markings if they choose, as long as it met the
other requirements. Since they had a quantity of such material
on hand, apparently, it was perfectly proper to use such on this
pre-production prototype contract. You should read Moore's
chapter in which he discusses the time spend in trying to  track
down the company and what they found.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 1

              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:16:34 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:10:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:23 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

Richard, List and Readers,

 >Bob and other skeptibunkers excel at force-fitting data to
 >support their preconceived conclusions. It had to be a Mogul
 >balloon, therefore the vaguest and most incomplete evidence of
 >such is presented as absolute fact.

Moore didn't "force fit" the data. He used the data that was
supplied by Kevin Randle and put it in a model that he checked
by using the data from other flights. It correctly predicted the
approximate crash of the other balloons.

Force fitting is using the testimony of people like Ragsdale,
Dennis, Anderson, etc. to justify a crash of an alien spaceship.
IF it is skeptibunkers (TM) who force fit the data, why can't
the Pro-Roswell researchers agree on the date of the crash, the
location of the crash, what the craft looked like, how many
bodies there were, what the debris on the floor of Ramey's
office really was, what the telegram stated, etc.?

 >Never let it be said that skeptibunkers engage in anything
 >approaching objective analysis of important UFO cases; they know
 >the answers in advance (ALL UFOs have prosaic explanations) and
 >"prove" them by advancing totally unsubstantiated and often
 >counter-to-fact claims.

Totally unsubstantiated ? That would require the testimony of
Ragsdale, Dennis, Kaufmann, Anderson, etc. The irony is that the
skeptical explanation was found not by skeptics but by UFO
researchers, fits the newspaper accounts, the FOIA documents,
the photos, etc.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                First Mutilation Case in Corrientes Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:58:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:12:59 -0400
Subject: First Mutilation Case in Corrientes Argentina


SOURCE: Vox Populi  (Misiones, Argentina)
DATE: June 30, 2002

FIRST CASE INVOLVING A MUTILATED COW IN CORRIENTES

The cattle mutilations phenomenon has reached Corrientes. The
town of Bella Vista was shaken by the news that a mutilated
bovine had been found in a field, showing marks similar to those
found on mutilated animals elsewhere in the country--in other
words, the animal was missing "organs and muscular mass."

Lisandro Buzzo, owner of the "Los Azahares" ranch, located in
the Juan Diaz section, made the corresponding report to the
Sheriff's office on Thursday, prompting officials to visit the
locations immediately together with personnel from SENASA and
the National Institute of Livestock Technology (INTA) to
investigate the event.

According to the report issued by the Provincial Police
Relations Office, the personnel reporting to the site attested
to the absence of "both ocular spheres, an orifice in the part
(sic) with total absence of the genital apparatus (vagina) and
rectum, total absence of large and small intestine, absence of
both kidneys, lack of muscular mass in the hindquarters up to
the elevation of the tibia (without tearing the hide), and a rib
cage orifice that does not quite reach the thoracic cavity. The
official report adds that no traces of blood or any other signs
that violence took place were found on the site.

The claimant  and the researchers estimate that the event took
place between Wednesday night and early morning Thursday.

______________________________________

Translation (C) 2002. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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                    Argentines Blame Mutes on 'Red Magic'

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:14:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:14:57 -0400
Subject: Argentines Blame Mutes on 'Red Magic'


Source: NORTE Edici=F3n Digital

http://www.diarionorte.com.ar/index.htm

DATE: 30 de Junio de 2002

RESIDENTS OF LA CHIQUITA BLAME ANIMAL MUTILATIONS ON "RED MAGIC"

SAENZ PE=D1A (Agencia) " This is a matter of "Mandinga". No animal
can die that way, it didn't scream, something weird is going
on," said Maria Eusebia, referring to the strange case involving
a mutilated horse missing an eye, its tongue and its anus. It
was found by residents of La Chiquita, located some 8 km, east
of Presidencia Roque Suarez, located on National Route 16.

Stories received yesterday regarding this event made evident the
consternation felt by local residents, who point out that these
events "are the work of practitioners of red magic."

On the night of the alleged animal mutilation, "the dogs slept
like bears and didn't bark, despite the fact that they slept
right next to the horse," added Maria Eusebia.

Daniel Acu=F1a, who happened to pass that location on his way to
work in the early morning hours, claims having seen red lights
over some trees on many occasions, "like an evil light, which I
was told are those who practice red magic."

The event, as was indicated yesterday, occured over a month ago,
adding to the mysterious mutilation of more than 60 animals
found in the provinces of La Pampa, Rio Negro and Buenos Aires,
but the case was only made known on Friday, after the horse had
been buried. "They took out its eye completely, but there was no
bleeding. They also took out its tongue and anus, but there was
no blood on the ground, nothing at all," said Emilia Lopez,
another resident of the ranch in which Agustina Torres, the
horse's owner, also lives.  Torres "in order not to suffer,
since she misses [the horse] so much, went off to Quitilipi,"
said locals.

In the property where the mutilation took place, located some 8
km of Saenz Pe=F1a, almost on the tracks of the Belgrano Railroad,
there are several neighboring ranch dwellings, in which the
horse--named Dominga by the local children--"was like a pet."

"He was tame, good, young and had just grown out of colthood, "
said Adriana, a young girl saddened by the horse's fate. "But
do=F1a Agustina Torres became ill, because that was the horse with
which would pull her cart to seel firewood and coal in town. She
won't be able to feed herself now, " she adds.

One of the woman's children, Diego Torres, is still amazed:
"It's not normal. We buried him because here in the countryside
we know nothing about the Chupacabras that the TV talks about.
But the incisions were perfect--there was no blood, and if [the
perpetrators] were human, the horse should have whinnied a
little, beacuse it's not going to let its tongue be cut out.
It's also weird that the dogs didn't bark, either."

The animal's owners and neighbors cannot find an explanation to
the event "because we have seen other animals die of old age or
disease, but never like this, without screaming or bleeding."
For this reason, some women did not hesitate to assign the event
to "practitioners of red magic," in their own words.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002.
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Special Thanks to Pablo Omastott, CEUFO.









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               Cattle Mutilations in Carlos Casares Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:31:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:16:49 -0400
Subject: Cattle Mutilations in Carlos Casares Argentina


SOURCE: Diario El Oeste (Carlos Casares, Prov. of Bs.As.)
DATE: 6-26-02

UFO SEEN OVER SMITH
** Seen Twice on Monday Night**


A family from Smith, with whom we spoke over the phone and made
a request for anonymity, saw a UFO twice over the town of Smith.

According to the version of a resident of said community, she
was on her way home from running errands arount 19:30 hrs. when
she saw lights in the sky traveling from NE to W, issuing bright
flashes which cast their light downward. When she reached home,
she called her husband  and her son Guillermo--who was also
arriving at the same time- so they could witness the phenomenon.

But according to the story of the resident from Smith, this was
not the only time that the strange phenomenon was sighted. At
22:00 hours they saw these lights with the same characteristics,
aiming multicolored rays down toward the ground, moving in the
opposite direction from the earlier sighting. There is even an
unconfirmed version of the same phenomenon having been seen in
Moctezuma and Bellocq.

MUTILATED BOVINE FOUND AT HORTENSIA
**Missing tongue, eye and showing incisions on maxillaries**

It couldn't be otherwise: in order to be attuned to what is
going on in the rest of the country and with all manner of
speculations, both scientific and harebrained,  a mutilated
bovine was found in Casares. The discovery was made on Saturday
at the rural farm "Don Angel" in the vicinity of Hortensia by
foreman Carlos A. Llantada who made the respective report to the
authorities.

According to the claim and the police report, as well as the
report of the veterinarian who acted as the expert, the animal
found was an 18 month female weighing 280 kg., presenting a
right lateral incision on both maxillaries, the extraction of
its tongue and the right ocular sphere. The expert was unable to
determine the cause of death. This allows the case to be placed
with other similar mysteries of Bahia Blanca, Pehuaj=F3 and other
parts of the province which have caused consternation at the
national level, leading some to think it could be the handiwork
of aliens", of "vernacular mythological creatures" like the
Chupacabras, or unknown scientific experiments and even the
deeds of a sect involving sacrifices and pagan rites. There is
talk of perfect incisions, the absence of tracks surrounding the
mutilated animals, and everything imaginable, even associations
to a mystery that appears in "X-Files" of the United States.

The police classified the offense as "a Violation of Law 14346"
since the codes have no provisions for fantasy, beliefs or much
less superstitions, although much of that is fact nowadays, and
should be taken into consideration. The fact is that prosecutor
Daneiri is involved in the matter, and her job will be  to
ascertain if any little green man did the deed, or if it is
merely the fact that fashion has reached the fields of C=E1ceres,
so as not to be left behind.
_______________________________________________

Translation (C) 2002.
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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   Jul > Jul 1

                 Many Argentines Believe Mutes Will Never Be

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:11:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:18:52 -0400
Subject: Many Argentines Believe Mutes Will Never Be


SOURCE: Diario La Nueva Provincia (Bahia Blanca, Argentina)
DATE: June 30, 2002

Many Believe Mutilations Phenom Will Never Be Explained

**The guidelines for unravelling the discovery of mutilated
animals**

Animals with strange incisions keep appearing. However, since
there is already an official theory on the subject (the bovines
died of natural causes and were later attacked by scavengers),
it is unlikely that investigations into the matter will
continue. Even as more claims against the version put forth by
the government become known, two specialists from Bahia are
detailing the guidelines to be followed in shedding light on the
subject.

Alien researchers, brutal attacks by carnivorous wasps, first
world scientists interested in finding ailments in the bovines
of the Pampas, macabre cultic rituals and even perverse CIA
experiments: all of this was said in the past 25 days in an
effort to explain the mutilations in our region, but the fact is
that very little has been done to find an explanation that will
satisfy most of the population, at least.

Not even the official version--which speaks of animals dying of
natural causes and being mutilated by carrion animals--is
convincing to ranchers who have experienced the mutilation of
their cattle, some of which have seen circular incisions or in
90 degree angles, different to what any known wild animal can
make. The fact remains that the official theory--offered by
specialists from the Schools of Veterinary Medicine of Rosario,
Tandil and La Plata--shall remain standing from now on, even
though more animals turn up with wounds as brutal as they are
strange, and huge water tanks emptied in a single night and
strange lights in the sky continue to occur.  Unless, of course,
that an investigation such as the one proposed by Elsa Mensch
and Liliana Arr=F3, both in charge of the Chair of Investigation
Methodology of the Higher Insitutie of Communication Sciences of
Bah=EDa Blanca, have proposed.

These professionals, consulted by La Nueva Provincia, mentioned
that before anything else, an interdisciplinary team to approach
the subject from various angles must be constituted. "It would
be idealt to have biologists, anthropologists, geologists,
pathologists, veterinarians, and why not, persons knowledgeable
in paranormal or folkloric matters, among others, " said Mensch.
"Furthermore, a specialist in methodology should be present,
checking step by step in order to offer no false results," added
Arro.

Both stated that an investigation also implies being very
careful and critical, abandoning beliefs or personal values in
order to work with data that can be scientifically attested.

Regarding the hypotheses to be discussed, Arro pointed out that
prior to creating new ones, consideration must be given to
historic ones: in other words, those which were formulated years
ago in other countries in which similar phenomena have occured.
"Many hypotheses were put forth in the U.S. and Mexico which
were neither confirmed nor denied, except for two. It would be
necessary to review that research, since a long time has gone
by."

"At the time it was confirmed, for example, that the incisions
were not made with materials known at the time (the '70s and
'80s). This may have changed today, because technology has
progressed considerably and it is perhaps possible now to find
out what they were made with." According to her perspective, it
its important to reject hypotheses that have already been
disproven so as not to confuse the public or the researchers
themselves. "As regards new hypotheses, the subject of water
disappearances would have to be included. How can we understand
the fact that liquid vanished, leaving the tanks completely
dry?, " she asks.

"Likewise, it is necessary to work with people who understand
soils and can look into the possible tracks that may have been
left around the animals." To Arr=F3, it is obvious that one must
point toward the verifiable with scientific hypotheses and not
fantasy. "There exists physical, palpable data surrounding these
cases whose existence does not depend on whether the researcher
believes in them or not. Such is the case of the soil on which
the bovines were found. This data must be analyzed rigorously
and under stringent methodological control."

Mensch opined that after establishing goals and the research
stages on the cases, a theoretical model must be furthered which
would allow obtaining reliable and interesting data regarding
the mutilations. "This is particularly hard in the cases
presented, because there are few scientific studies on the
matter. In any case, an effort should be made to find reports
which could address part of the case, or photos, reports and
other things. Interviews with trained persons can also be
performed," she added. "The more unknown the phenomenon is,
there more people would have to be added to the investigation.
No hypothesis can be formulated  without taking all of the
elements compiled into consideration."

In regard to the fact that many hypotheses have been put forth
and none has been satsifactorily confirmed in the minds of the
people, Mensch stated that this does not necessarily mean that
the cases have to do with supernatural matters. "In fact, the
absence of satisfactory explanations can be due to the fact that
the correct hypothesis has not been formulated." She also
mentioned that the appearance of explanations having little to
do with scientific hypotheses may have hindered the
investigations. "These are mere efforts by persons, who cast a
stone, so to speak, to see what happens, and  respond to how
people react or believe. The scientific method, when seriously
applied, can be used on any discipline, even the study of the
UFO phenomenon. But not everyone who calls himself a reseacher
is actually one."

"Regarding cases like these, many journalists and alleged
experts have appeared on TV which theories explained in such a
way that many of them are based on belief. Caution is called
for. I have not heard that the subject has been approached form
a strictly scientific standpoint," she added.

Arr=F3 also made reference to the subject and considered that in a
more normal social context that can be found in Argentina a this
time, it would be necessary to ask who would benefit from the
subject of mutilated cows being resolved in one way or another.

"Days ago, I was watching a program called Memoria (hosted by
Samuel Gelblung on Canal Azul) and every other moment there was
a new wild hypothesis on the subject, but no answers were being
given. Furthermore, the silent gaps were highly suggestive and
the persons doing the talking were not serious specialists but
opinion-givers. At one point I wondered if those programs had
agreements with the government, since rather than provide
information, they supply disinformation."

In closing, she recalled an axiom which to her understanding
must always be kept in mind: Science does not care what is true,
only what can be demostrated.

"There are great truths that cannot be demostrated," Arr=F3
explained. "Such was the case with quantum physics. Einstein
realized at the age of 12 that Physicas, as he knew it, was
wrong. However, he couldn't prove it until he was 46 or 47.
  Before Einstein, in spite of the fact that there was no one to
discover it, the Truth was the same, unique and irreplaceable."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002.
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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   Jul > Jul 1

               Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:54:12 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:20:14 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hutchinson


 >From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Jerry, List and Readers,

 >If any of you still have even the slightest doubt that the
 >Sturrock panel wasn't 100% justified in re-evaluating and
 >revising Dr. Condon's conclusions from the 1966 Colorado Study,
 >the following page recently added to my web site, may be of
 >interest.

<snip>

1) Re-evaluating?  First, they only heard from believers.
  Skeptics  were not given an opportunity to present to the
committee.

2) The report is hardly a sweeping condemnation of Condon.

"The panel also reviewed some of the conclusions advanced in
1968 by Dr. Edward U. Condon, director of the Colorado Project.
He asserted that "nothing has come from the study of UFOs in the
past 21 years that has added to scientific knowledge," and that
"further extensive study of UFOs probably cannot be justified in
the expectation that science will be advanced thereby." While
agreeing with the first conclusion and its extension to the
present, the panel considers that there always exists the
possibility that investigation of an unexplained phenomenon may
lead to an advance in scientific knowledge."

So they agree that nothing has come from the study of UFOs even
up to the present time but that there exists the POSSIBILITY
that studying almost anything may lead to an advance in
scientific knowledge.

"Whenever there are unexplained observations, there is the
possibility that scientists will learn something new by studying
those observations."

What horrible thing did the Condon study say?

"Therefore we think that all of the agencies of the federal
government, and the private foundations as well, ought to be
willing to consider UFO research proposals along with the others
submitted to them on an open-minded, unprejudiced basis. While
we do not think at present that anything worthwhile is likely to
come of such research each individual case ought to be carefully
considered on its own merits."

How dastardly to suggest that UFO research proposals should be
considered on an open-minded and unprejudiced basis!  And
considering each individual case on its own merits!  Shocking!

3) The Sturrock panel thought it might be worthy to consider an
agency to look into this.

"The panel considers that the chances of such an advance are
greater now than they were in 1967 because of the advances in
scientific knowledge and technical capabilities, and in view of
the GEPAN/SEPRA model for data acquisition."

Condon wrote: "This formulation carries with it the corollary
that we do not think that at this time the federal government
ought to set up a major new agency, as some have suggested, for
the scientific study of UFOs. This conclusion may not be true
for all time. If, by the progress of research based on new ideas
in this field, it then appears worthwhile to create such an
agency, the decision to do so may be taken at that time."

But considering that the panel wasn't allowed to hear a
discouraging word, perhaps it isn't time.

4) The report wasn't exactly complementary to UFO researchers.

"It appears that most current UFO investigations are carried out
at a level of rigor that is not consistent with prevailing
standards of scientific research."

Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                   Re: Breakout of the Fictions - Bennett

From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:10:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:23:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout of the Fictions - Bennett


 >From:Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To:<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re:Breakout of the Fictions
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:38:12-0400

 >>From: Steven Kaesar <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To:<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re:Breakout of the Fictions
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:21:48 -0400

 >In the United States, at least, intellectual and cultural
 >life continued throughout the war.

Yes indeed, but the examples given (such as Bing Crosby and
Raymond Chandler) were hardly likely to appeal to the cerebrals
of the main research centres such as Los Alamos. I think they
would seek and find the level they wanted much more actively
than Greg estimates, in exactly the way we do today on the web,
although they had much less time than we have!

Also, word of mouth is a most important factor, particularly
amongst isolated groups of thinkers. If what they want is
rumoured to exist, concerned people will find it, wherever it
is.

Again, books are not finite pages: they exist in the form of
rumour and hearsay, jokes, private translations, and even off-
  hand remarks and conversations. Such scattered stuff on
different levels constitute the Zeitgeist, which is a very
important concept.

That Borges was published in 1945 means almost certainly that
his books or parts of his books were available outside
Argentina.

Extremely important ideas from important writers cannot
contained by geographies and language difficulties.

As far as my knowledge being drawn from "imaginary history" is
concerned, I would like Greg to give me an example of something
that is not held by the human imagination the first place. Also,
by using the phrase "imaginary history" he shows that he doesn't
know his Borges very well.

In the metaphysics of Borges (as well as that of Henry Ford) all
history is imaginary. That he refuses to comment on the rest of
my speculations is most disappointing.

 >>I think you give too much weight to the research of Friedman
 >>and the Woods in the MJ-12 affair

How could I help but give weight to Friedman, whose books have
influenced a generation? How could I help but give weight to
such detailed publications by Woods as appear in MUFON 2001
International UFO Symposium Proceedings?

 >>There are several good arguments to show that the SOM-101 manual
 >>is not valid, and what most people don't realise is that the manual was
 >>received long before it was publicised by Friedman in his book.

Since you do not give your good arguments, I cannot comment on
them. As for the time lapse mentioned I fail to see what
possible importance this has with regard to anything at all.

 >>it began to impact the genre in a negative way

I don't believe the effect was negative, but more importantly, I
have learned something here. So we have a genre? Wonderful - can
we look forward to a Chair in the aesthetics of Virtual
Literature here, sir?


Colin








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                      Eras News: Weekly Briefing 7.1.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:59:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:25:24 -0400
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 7.1.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

July 1, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
7.1.02


EXOBIOLOGY
The Search for Extraterrestrial Life

Shipment of Dishes Expands ET Search
http://www.redding.com/top_stories/local/20020627toplo020.shtml

Star Winks, Hidden Planet May be Nudging
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/sun-like_star_020619.html

'Winking' Star Broadens Search for Planets
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/19/star.eclipse/index.html

Another Jupiter Twin Found in Flood of Planet Discoveries
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/extrasolar_jupiter_020619.ht=
ml

Exoplanet Toll Hits 100 as Another Jupiter Found
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/20/exoplanets.jupiter/index.html

Amid a Flurry of Planet Discoveries, the True Tally
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/exoplanet_scoreboard_020628.=
html

Astronomers on Brink of Watershed in Planet Discoveries
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/exoplanet_watershed_020624.h=
tml

Would Aliens Visit?
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_visit_020627.html


QUANTA
Science and Technology

Large Former Lake, Catastrophic Flood Identified on Mars
http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/pa/nasmnews/pr/research/062002.htm

Gearing Up to Harvest Mars' Water Resource
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/mars_ice_tech_020619-1.ht=
ml

UC Berkeley Scientist Urges Drilling Into Frozen Lake Under Ice
Near South Pole
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/06/28_ice.html

Farewell Look at Jupiter's Burning Moon
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/26/galileo.io/index.html

Too Close for Comfort: Asteroid Passed Within 75,000 Miles of Earth
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/asteroid_miss_020620.html

Surprise Asteroid Nearly Hits Home
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/20/asteroid.miss/index.html

Signs Earth Recovered Quickly from Asteroid
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/27/ancient.rainforest.ap/index.html

Solving the Case of the Missing Comets
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/comet_missing_020620.html

Vanishing Comets Puzzle Scientists
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/06/22/vanishing.comets.reut/index.html

Stellar Water Fountain May Shed Light on Nebula Formation
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/star_fountain_020619.html

International Team Explores Lunar Base Proposals
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/lunarbase_euro_020620.html

First Look: ZAP AirBoard
http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/products/story/0,23008,3379499,00.html


EXOTICA
Unexplained Phenomena

Continuing Wave of Cattle and Other Animal Mutilations in Argentina,
Uruguay, Mexico,
USA and Canada
http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/06/19/argentina.animals.reut/index=
.htm
l
http://www.rense.com
http://www.rense.com/Datapages/argentinedata.html
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=3D361&category=3DReal+X-Files
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=3D358&category=3DReal+X-Files
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0726.shtml
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0725.shtml
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0724.shtml
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0723.shtml
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0722.shtml
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0719.shtml
http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2002/?id=3D63
http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2002/?id=3D59
http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2002/?id=3D58
http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2002/?id=3D52
http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2002/?id=3D50

Tunnels, Pipes, Tower From 'ET Launch Site' Found In China
http://www1.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=3D13482933

Chinese Scientists to Head for Suspected ET Relics
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200206/19/eng20020619_98177.shtml

Mysterious Pipes Left by 'ET' Reported from Qinghai
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200206/25/eng20020625_98530.shtml


BIOSPHERE
Environment

Study: Humans Overtaxing the Earth
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/25/environment.biosphere.reut/index.=
html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2002








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   Jul > Jul 1

             CCCRN News: Duncan, BC & Mansfield, Ontario #1, #2

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:52:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:38:58 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Duncan, BC & Mansfield, Ontario #1, #2


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 1, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002

The three 'randomly downed crop' reports in BC and Ontario have
been updated again on the web site.

Photos of some of the bent and stretched nodes on hay stalks at
Duncan, BC, a photo of 'layered grass' at Mansfield, Ontario #2
and additional diagrams for Mansfield, Ontario #1 and #2 have
been added. Other photos to be added soon also.

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Go to 'Crop Circles in Canada 2002'


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August/September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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   Jul > Jul 2

                  Animals Blamed For Argentine Cattle Mutes

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 01:57:40 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:50:11 -0400
Subject: Animals Blamed For Argentine Cattle Mutes


Source: South Florida Sun-Sentinel,

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-71rats.story?
coll=3Dsfla%2Dnews%2Dfringe

Stig

***

Rats blamed for mysterious cattle mutilations

Reuters

Posted July 1 2002, 5:04 PM EDT

**

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina - Recent mutilations of cattle and
horses in the Argentine countryside were the work of rodents,
scientists said on Monday, not ritualistic slayings by
extraterrestrials or vampires as some farmers feared.

Argentina's national food and animal health inspection service
Senasa sent its own "X-Files" scientists to the remote plains to
look into the deaths of farm animals found mutilated and drained
of blood.

Frightened farmers claimed to have seen bright lights and UFOs
in the area where the deaths occurred.

But Senasa officials said the dozens of livestock whose
genitals, tongues and other organs appeared to have been removed
with surgical precision were victims of rodents, foxes or other
animals.

Senasa said the farm animals likely died from common infections
and wild animals later mutilated the corpses.

"We see these as natural deaths (and) there is clear evidence of
the presence of rodents and birds which led us to our
conclusions," Senasa President Bernardo Cane told reporters.

The strange circumstances surrounding the deaths -- one horse's
hoof had a circle drawn into it and some animals were surrounded
by charred grass -- led some locals to insist the deaths were
the work of little green men, vampires or a satanic cult. Senasa
gave no explanation for the burned grass and the circle on the
hoof.

Senasa said its specialists conferred with scientists in Texas
who had investigated similar cases in the 1970's and arrived at
a similar conclusion.

**

Copyright =A9 2002, South Florida Sun-Sentinel

Copyright 2002, Sun-Sentinel Co. & South Florida Interactive,
Inc.








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                   Montana Cattle Mutes Baffle Authorities

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 02:24:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:51:33 -0400
Subject: Montana Cattle Mutes Baffle Authorities


Source: Las Vegas Weekly via AlterNet

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=3D12280

Stig

***

Rural Cow Mutilations Baffle Authorities

Kate Silver, Las Vegas Weekly

January 23, 2002

**

If there's a black market for cow organs, someone in Montana may
be rolling in moo-lah. After the mutilation of 12 to 15
(depending on who you talk to) cows and steer in about seven
months, folks in sleepy Pondera County are baffled. They're
still hoping that National Institute for Discovery Science
(NIDS), a place known for using the scientific method to explore
such anomalies as UFOs, cattle mutilations and other
controversial topics, can answer who, or what, is behind these
strange deaths.

The Mystery

It began in June. A Montana farmer discovered that some kind of
unauthorized surgical procedure had been performed on his cow-
one that left it dead and lacking blood, organs and hide. By
now, it's happened to many more. Whoever or whatever has been
mutilating the cattle leaves behind no evidence, not even
footprints. It's so mysterious that the townsfolk don't know
whether to blame the government, aliens or satanic cults -- but
the mutilations are nothing new. They seem to come in spurts
every 10 years or so, according to Pondera County Commission
Chair Bill Rappold. Only this time seems different, more
extensive. Locals say it's the largest wave of bovine butchery
since the 1970s, when 62 mutilations occurred in this area of
Montana. And they're getting frustrated.

Ruby Bouma knows about this frustration firsthand. She and her
husband, Glen, found their 9-month-old steer calf sliced up Nov.
1. Puzzled by its death, they're almost equally confused by the
aftermath.

"When an animal dies, a predator, whether it be a coyote, wolf,
whatever, they will chew into the animal and make a large enough
hole so they can start eating into the flesh," Ruby explains.
"... Nothing had eaten on this animal (almost two months after
it was killed). "If you lose a calf you just take it back in the
pasture and the predators will take care of it. ... In the
mutilated ones, these wild animals won't do that. Why? I don't
know. How are they dying? I don't know." She's certainly not
alone in her confusion.

The Discovery

That's where the National Institute for Discovery Science comes
in. Last June, the institute acquired its first sample from one
of the mutilated Montana animals. "It interested us because
underneath the left jaw, under the bone, was an area of what
investigators described as green tissue, in contrast to the
remaining tissue, which was the usual pink," says NIDS Deputy
Director Colm Kelleher.

The head was shipped to NIDS, where a battery of tests was
performed. NIDS also acquired a dead cow from a slaughterhouse
to use as a control in the experiment. They allowed the cow to
decompose under natural conditions for four days, protected from
scavengers. Samples were taken and compared to the mutilated
cow, and a surprising difference was found. A substance called
oxindole was found in the mutilated cow but not in the control
sample. "Oxindole has, at the kinds of concentration we found it
in, been used as an experimental sedative," explains Kelleher.
"It could have been used to drug the animal prior to or during
the mutilation. We haven't nailed that down but that's one of
the uses of oxindole."

So they've found a starting point, which comes as small relief
to Pondera County folk. Only time will tell whether their
discovery is significant; that is, if oxindole is found
consistently in other mutilated cattle. And that, of course,
depends on the mutilator striking again. The townsfolk know this
and, at least for Ruby, the prospect is frightening. "What will
be next?" Ruby ponders. "Why haven't these people, or whoever's
doing this, why haven't they done horses or sheep? Why haven't
they done other kinds of animal? And if it gets to (mutilating)
people, then we really need to get it under control. The most
scary part is the unknowing. When you don't know any answers,
that's what's weird."

**

Reproduction of material from any AlterNet.org pages without
written permission is strictly prohibited.

=A9 2002 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.








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                     SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 03:24:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:52:46 -0400
Subject: SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit?


Source: space.com

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_visit_020627.html

Stig

***

Would Aliens Visit?

By Seth Shostak
Senior Astronomer, Project Phoenix
posted: 07:00 am ET
27 June 2002

**

When it comes to alien activities, visiting Earth seems to be
pretty high on the "to do" list. But does that make sense?

Approximately half the U.S. population suspects that
extraterrestrials have come to our planet. This is such a
controversial (and emotional) topic that its mere mention in one
of these articles is usually sufficient to guarantee a storm of
Web chat and high-voltage e-mails. In the end, of course, the
matter of alien visitation will be decided by the evidence, not
by the intensity of opinion. While I certainly expect that the
Galaxy is home to many advanced societies, the quality of the
evidence has so far failed to convince me that any of them have
emissaries on our planet.

But let's back off to our neutral corners for a moment and
consider an intimately related question: why would aliens be
visiting now? According to the most popular view of this matter,
extraterrestrial craft have been flitting across our skies since
1947. That's 55 years in a planetary history of 4,600,000,000
years. If we assume for the moment that these claims are real,
this chronology tells us immediately that either (1) we are the
beneficiaries of an enormously rare event (one chance in 100
million, or if you want to argue that no aliens would visit
until they detected oxygen in our atmosphere, one chance in 40
million), (2) the aliens routinely visit Earth, or (3) our
activities (nuclear tests, environmental degradation, etc.) have
attracted the aliens' attention, and encouraged them to drop by.

The first possibility, that we just happened to luck out (being
around for the first and only alien encounter), is less probable
than that you -- not someone, but you -- will win next month's
lottery jackpot. It strains credulity, to use polite vernacular.

The second possibility, that Earth hosts extraterrestrials on a
routine basis, and therefore a visit during your lifetime is not
particularly improbable, deserves a bit more scrutiny. The
question is, how often do they visit? If it's only once in a few
tens of millions of years, we're back to the first possibility,
and the odds are highly stacked against you being one of the
lucky visitees. But some folk claim that aliens have glissaded
to Earth in historical times (five millennia ago, when the
pyramids were built, or one millennium ago, when the Nazca
Indians elected to decorate the Peruvian desert floor with
glyphs of turkeys and other of their favorite fauna). If any of
this is true, it argues for visits at least once every 1,000
years or so. The problem with this is that -- barring some reason
for them to visit humans in particular (a possibility we
consider below) -- it implies that there have been millions of
expeditions to Earth! We may send the occasional anthropological
research team to Borneo, but we don't send millions. And it's a
lot easier to get to Borneo than to traverse hundreds or
thousands of light-years. This, too, seems to be an unlikely
explanation for visitors now.

Finally, we consider door number three -- we have enticed the
aliens with human activity. Let's set aside the question of
whether advanced galactic societies would have the slightest
interest in our wars, our pollution problems, or our
reproductive systems. The real question is, how would they know
about us at all?

In fact, there's only one clear and persistent "signal" that
Homo sapiens has ever sent to the stars: our high-frequency
radio transmissions, including television and radar. The
Victorians (let alone the Egyptians or the Nazca Indians),
despite all their technical sophistication, could never have
been spotted from light-years away. Humans have been making
their presence known to the universe only for the last 70 years
or so.

And that's a problem. It means that even if, after receiving an
earthly transmission, the aliens can immediately scramble their
spacecraft and fly to Earth at the speed of light, they can't be
farther than 8 light- years away to have arrived by 1947. There
are four star systems within this distance. Count =91em, four.
We're back to winning the lottery.

What about warp drive? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and
get here in essentially no time. It doesn't matter. Our signals
travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with
infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens can't be farther off than
15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947. The
number of star systems within 15 light-years is about three
dozen. There would have to be 10 billion technically
sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable
chance of finding one camped out among the nearest three dozen
stars. That's optimism of a high level indeed.

It's nice to think that either Earth or its human inhabitants
have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors, but
encouraged them to visit. But frankly, the numbers don't give
much support to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

**

=A91999 - 2002 SPACE.com, inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.








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   Jul > Jul 2

                  Tens Of Billions Of 'Earths' In Milky Way

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 04:17:51 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:54:16 -0400
Subject: Tens Of Billions Of 'Earths' In Milky Way


In the previous e-mail SETI director, Seth Shostak, was very
sceptical about the possibility of aliens visiting the earth,
but he is contradicted by facts found by his own colleagues and
presented in the dewy BBC news item below. First Shostak's
argument:

"Finally, we consider door number three -- we have enticed the
aliens with human activity. Let's set aside the question of
whether advanced galactic societies would have the slightest
interest in our wars, our pollution problems, or our
reproductive systems. The real question is, how would they know
about us at all?

In fact, there's only one clear and persistent "signal" that
Homo sapiens has ever sent to the stars: our high-frequency
radio transmissions, including television and radar. The
Victorians (let alone the Egyptians or the Nazca Indians),
despite all their technical sophistication, could never have
been spotted from light-years away. Humans have been making
their presence known to the universe only for the last 70 years
or so.

And that's a problem. It means that even if, after receiving an
earthly transmission, the aliens can immediately scramble their
spacecraft and fly to Earth at the speed of light, they can't be
farther than 8 light-years away to have arrived by 1947. There
are four star systems within this distance. Count 'em, four.
We're back to winning the lottery.

What about warp drive? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and
get here in essentially no time. It doesn't matter. Our signals
travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with
infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens can't be farther off than
15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947. The
number of star systems within 15 light-years is about three
dozen. There would have to be 10 billion technically
sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable
chance of finding one camped out among the nearest three dozen
stars. That's optimism of a high level indeed."

Well, Shostak's argument isn't as water-tight, as he wants us to
believe. "With about 300 billion stars in our galaxy," according
to the BBC, "there could be about 30 billion planetary systems
in the Milky Way alone; and a great many of these systems are
very likely to include Earth-like worlds."

Source: BBC news,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2078000/2078507.stm

Stig

***

Monday, 1 July, 2002, 14:55 GMT 15:55 UK

Scientists estimate 30 billion Earths

By Dr David Whitehouse

BBC News Online science editor

**

Astronomers say there could be billions of Earths in our galaxy,
the Milky Way.

Their assessment comes after the discovery of the 100th
exoplanet - a planet that circles a star other than our own.

The latest find is a gas giant, just like all the other
exoplanets so far detected, and orbits a Sun-like star 293
light-years away.

Scientists say they are now in a position to try to estimate how
many planets may exist in the galaxy and speculate on just how
many could be like the Earth. The answer in both cases is
billions.

Virtually all the stars out to about 100 light- years distant
have been surveyed. Of these 1,000 or so stars, about 10% have
been found to possess planetary systems.

So, with about 300 billion stars in our galaxy, there could be
about 30 billion planetary systems in the Milky Way alone; and a
great many of these systems are very likely to include Earth-
like worlds, say researchers.

Better grasp

The 100th new planet circles the star HD 2039. It was found by
astronomers using the Anglo-Australian Telescope as part of the
Carnegie Institution Planet Search Program.

The Jupiter-sized world circles its star every 1,210 days at a
distance of about 320 million kilometres (200 million miles).

Astronomer Dr Jean Schneider, who compiles the Extrasolar
Planets Catalogue, told BBC News Online: "The 100th planet is
symbolic and important.

"The first discoveries concentrated on short orbital periods
because of the limited timebase of observations. Now, we are
learning more about the statistics of long orbital periods and
know to what extent our own Jupiter is exceptional or not."

New telescopes

With the new world, astronomers say that they have just about
finished surveying all the Sun-like stars out to a distance of
100 light- years from Earth.

Current planet detection technology - based on the "wobble"
induced in the parent star by the gravitational pull of the
orbiting planet - can only detect worlds about the mass of
Saturn or larger. Earth-sized worlds are too small to be seen.

But even in this "biased" survey of giants, the smaller worlds
predominate - which makes astronomers think that Earth-like
worlds do exist. They may even be as common a Jupiter- sized
exoplanets.

And if stellar statistics gathered in our local region of space
are applied to our galaxy of 300 billion stars, then there may
be 30 billion Jupiter-like worlds and perhaps as many Earth-
  like worlds as well.

Astronomers will have to wait for a new generation of space-
based telescopes incorporating advanced detectors before they
can detect Earth-sized worlds orbiting other stars.

**

=A9 MMII








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                                    NIDS?

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:48:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:56:14 -0400
Subject: NIDS?


Hi Listers,

Recently heard a story that Bigelow has curtailed or cutback
NIDS.

Supposedly staff and money cuts. Somebody else said that this
story supposedly had some coverage from the Klassical point of
view but supposedly no where else.

Have I missed some news?


Cheers,

Robert







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                Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:14:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:57:48 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Lehmberg


 >From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >If any of you still have even the slightest doubt that the
 >Sturrock panel wasn't 100% justified in re-evaluating and
 >revising Dr. Condon's conclusions from the 1966 Colorado Study,
 >the following page recently added to my web site, may be of
 >interest.

 >With so many years having past, younger skeptics may not have
 >ever seen NICAP's original rebuttal to the Condon Study. It was
 >taken from The UFO Investigator, January 1969, Vol. IV, Special
 >Edition. I happened to come across it as I was researching
 >something else.

 >http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm


Great suffering barragrugous ZOT, but doesn't everybody (from
rationally incontinent contactee to scurrilously strident
skeptibunky!) see the startling implications of this document?
This is naught but an indication of the rot of intellectual
cowardice at our cultural core, clearly pointed out, early on!
This is a baldfaced act of institutional unbravery, whatever the
motivations of Dr. Condon (an _understood_ ufological hostile)
and the handlers he fronted for. This is a deliberate removal of
our rational sensibilities, a premeditated surrender to our
reflexive fear, and a deliberate backslide from hard fought
gains arduously made since 1900.

Dr. James E. McDonald predicted in 1969 that the acceptance of
Dr. Condon's report will prove "a serious source of future
embarrassment" to the government at some point in time. As it
turns out, and as Jerry Cohen has calmly reminded us once again,
Dr. Mac couldn't have been more prescient. Every aspect of the
way our cultural institutions have handled the UFO question
(indeed the whole of what is paranormal), is, has been, and
remains to be a huge embarrassment of _colossal_ proportion!
Additionally, it is early evidence of a mainstream so corrupted
by elitist convenience that it does not deserve the title and
should be exposed as fraud! Finally, it gives clear indication
that very little information arrives to us from that mainstream
that does not bear the taint of the hated arbitrary.  UFOs _ARE_
real!

What says the Committee for the Silly and Insentient Commitment
of Obdurate Persons?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jul > Jul 2

                Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:20:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:59:30 -0400
Subject: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

Dear Readers:

The world is clearly a far more dangerous place than we'd
thought. When one-fanged dogs aren't drawing the blood of
thousands of animals around the world, small red-muzzled mice
are feasting on beef cattle. This is a news item concerning the
"final report" by SENASA.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D



SOURCE: EFE News Service
DATE: July 1, 2002

Final report made known today
AUTHORITIES EXPLAIN ARGENTINEAN CATTLE DEATHS
www.terra.cl

Small carnivorous mouse known as "red muzzle" (hocicudo rojizo)
was responsible for mysterious mutilations. (EFE)

BUENOS AIRES, JULY 1.- Argentinean health authorities concluded
that a small carnivorous mouse known as "red muzzle (hocicudo
rojizo, in Spanish) was responsible for the mysterious
mutilations found in recent months in over a hundred cow
carcasses in different rural sectors of the country.

The lifeless bovine bodies, which were largely found without
anuses and missing parts of the mouth and genitals, and around
which no tracks or traces could be found, gave rise to a wide
array of speculations ranging from Satanic rites and UFOs to
little green men.

Bernardo Can=E9,  president of the National Health and
Agroalimentary Quality Service (SENASA), brought the mystery to
a close today and pointed out that the party responsible for the
mutilations is a mouse that dwells in rural areas and whose
nutritional habits have changed due to the scarcitiy of worms
and insects it normally feeds on, turning into a scavenger. This
was the conclusion reached by scientists from the Universidad
Nacional del Centro, whose final report was made known today by
Bernardo Can=E9.

"We were able to establish that the cows died of natural causes
as customarily occurs this time of year," explained Can=E9, adding
that "their carcasses were subsequently mutilated by various
predators."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2002.
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Special thanks to Rodrigo Cuadra, TOC.







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              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:05:38 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 23:00:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

Mac, List and Readers,

 >The whole "novelty tape" scenario is rather bizarre. I
 >personally can accept that such tape was used for Mogul arrays,
 >but I find it perplexing that none of it has survived for
 >inspection.

Huhhh??  Now why on Earth would anyone have wanted to save a
portion of this tape back in 1944??  Go to any novelty/toy store
and observe how many different types of novelty tapes there are.
Now consider how many different designs have been produced since
1950.  Do you honestly think that the makers should carefully
archive each design- just in case someone uses it to reinforce a
UFO?

Perplexing indeed!


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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               Argentina: Full Version of SENASA Press Release

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:22:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 23:02:34 -0400
Subject: Argentina: Full Version of SENASA Press Release


Dear Readers,

The following is the full text version of the SENASA Press
Release which attributes the mutilations to a small rodent. IHU
would like to thank Alejandro Agostinelli for providing this
complete version.

Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Inexplicata--The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

SENASA PRESS RELEASE

OFFICIAL REPORT REGARDING INJURIES AND MUTILATIONS TO BOVINE
CARCASSES


The National Health and Agroalimentary Quality Service (SENASA)
made known today the report entrusted to the Universidad
Nacional del Centro (UNICEN) in Tandil, which concludes that the
studies performed on dead and mutilated animals have established
that the deaths were the result of natural causes and the
injuries were provoked by predators, among them a rodent of the
genus Oxymcterus known as the "hocicudo rojizo" (red muzzle)
whose population has recently increased and whose nutritional
habits have changed.

The report points out that the deaths of 20 animals studied,
taken from livestock facilities in the Buenos Airean districts
of Olavarr=EDa, Tandil, Tres Arroyos, Coronel Pringles, Coronel
Dorrego and Balcarce are due to "natural causes and can be
attributed to metabolic or infectious diseases which occur
frequently this time of year," according to UNICEN's chancellor,
Dr. N=E9stor Auza.

Auza participated in a press conference at SENASA's
headquarters, headed by its president, Bernardo Can=E9, along with
Alejandro Soraci, dean of the School of Veterinary Sciences of
UNICEN, Ofelia Tapia, a toxicologist with the School of
Veterinary Sciences of UNICEN, and Ernesto Odriozola, a
technician with the Animal Production Department of INTA-
Balcarce.

The conclusions reached by these studies dismiss the possibility
of radiation, as well as narcotics, at the locations where the
animals studied were found, according to technical reports from
the schools of Mathematics and Natural Sciences  and Pharmacy
and Biochemistry of the University of Buenos Aires (UBA), which
also participated in the analyses.

The report points out that "it was ascertained through direct
observation, and under a stereoscopic magnifying glass, that the
lesions on the animals' hide and organs were produced by
predators" such as rodents and foxes.

The absence of special elements in the incisions (heat-
cauterization) was further shown by means of histological tests.

Field observations confirmed "the presence of rodents around the
carcasses, inside the carcasses, and at the moment that animal
tissue was ingested." Some of these rodents were trapped and
subjected to laboratory testing, where they showed "a
particularly voraciousness for the organs provided" in the
experiment.

The characteristics of the rodents correspond to a species that
is little developed in our environment, belonging to the genus
Oxymcterus, but which has proliferated of late, as well as
foxes, according to information recorded in previous studies by
UNICEN's fauna and biology group.

The report concludes that "there can be no doubt that a series
of environmental, management and production factors have been
present and which have impacted the ecosystem in different ways,
causing evident imbalances among species, as well as in their
habits."

The observations made by technicians made it possible to see
that the animals studied presented, in general terms, injuries
that followed a common pattern: strong association between the
presence of lesions and natural cavities such as mouths, ears,
mammary glands, rectums, vulvae and in exceptional cases--if the
animal had been dead for a longer period of time--the abdomen.

In order to secure additional information, newly-dead and
unmutilated animals were placed at selected locations to study
predator action, confirming that the lesions produced were
exactly the same as those found on the rest of the animals
studied and which had been found dead.

Can=E9 noted that "at the start of the study, we did not discard
the possibility of human involvement, but it has been proven
that there was none because of the lack of narcotizing elements.
It was also proven in recently slain animals that the incisions
are not so precise as the are serrated, and the studies tell us
that the animals died of natural causes and not due to provoked
attacks," adding at the same time that "all public agencies
concur in this assessment."

The official added that "the most recent dead and mutilated
animal cases were involved with the greatest degree of rigor.
This is definite proof. This is what was proven."

Moreover, Dr. Tapia noted that "the rodents' diet is normally
based on worms and bugs, but there has evidently been a change
in this habit due to the lack of insects and worms. We are
thinking that there is a modification in the normal fauna
populations of the "red muzzle", but the explanation as to why
these rodents changed their dietary habits forms part of a much
larger study."

The studies and analyses that contributed to the drafting of the
final report were handled by an interdisciplinary team composed
of researchers from various scientific and public specialty
institutions at the national level, and received cooperation
from professionals in the private sector.

The schools of Veterinary Medicine and Mathematics of UNICEN,
the INTA-Balcarce, the schools of Mathematics and Natural
Sciences and Pharmacy and Biochemistry of the University of
Buenos Aires also participated in the studies. There was also an
exchange of information with the schools of Veterinary Sciences
of the Universities of R=EDo Cuarto, Cordoba and General Pico, La
Pampa

**Buenos Aires, July 1, 2002**

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Translation (C) 2002 IHU.








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   Jul > Jul 2

                        Re: Birnes on Corso? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:53:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 23:04:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso? - Kaeser


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:40:10 EDT
 >Subject: Birnes on Corso?

 >Somebody got me the below... I thought Listers would be
 >interested in excerpts of this apparent interview between Birnes
 >and somebody else back in '97 or thereabouts. My comments are in
 >brackets

<snip>

As I recall. Col. Corse met with a number of researchers in
Roswell in 1994 or 1995 and wanted to interest them in his
involvement in the Roswell incident. It wasn't really made
clear at the time what his involvement was, and most of the
researchers simply took his story with a "grain of salt" and
moved on, but two years later The Day After Roswell was
released and he began his promotion of it.

Some others on this list might have been at that event, and
they might be able to expand on this. But this seems to
contradict some of the story that Birnes is telling now.


Steve

-







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                              The OZ files Site

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:27:48 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 23:06:00 -0400
Subject: The OZ files Site


The OZ files web site is a repository for some of my research
into the Australian UFO controversy and includes major documents
such as "UFOs Sub Rosa Down Under", the DNA investigations of
biological evidence implicated in UFO abduction events,
Australian UFO history (Australian aboriginal culture and
possible UFO connections and early Australian historical
encounters (pre-1947), physical trace evidence (including the
famous 1966 Tully UFO "nest" affair) and "editorial essays"
(including UFOs - a shamanic connection). The site is updated
regularly. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-
microsoft-com:office:office" />

Here is an indication of some of the features on the site:

Introduction to the internet based UFO TV show on Banana TV, co
hosted by myself with Doug Moffett : http://www.bananatv.com

UFO flaps a context for scientific study.

Alien abductions a shamanic perspectives on UFOs.

The Jarrold File a detailed account of the role of Edgar Jarrold
the father of Australian ufology including coverage of his part
in Men in Black (MIB) lore.

An extraordinary UFO incident off Chile (involving
electromagnetic effects on a Chilean warship and claims of a
coverup).

A tribute to Andrew Tomas (1906 2001) an Australian UFO pioneer.

An extraordinary encounter in the Dandenong foothills the first
detailed report on the Kelly Cahill abduction case.

The Min Min Light Revealed Nature Unbound? a detailed
investigation of Australia s classic ghost light manifestations.

The World's first DNA PCR investigation of Biological Evidence
from an Alien Abduction a summary of an intriguing research
programme revolving around a hair sample implicated in the 1992
abduction milieu of Peter Khoury in Sydney, Australia.

Strange Evidence the detailed initial study report of the
anomalous hair sample, as published in the International UFO
Reporter (IUR).

An Interesting Aside Nobel Prize winner Kary Mullis s strange
experiences.

Australian aboriginal culture and possible UFO connections.

The Boianai Visitants of 1959 the remarkable classic UFO entity
observations of  Father Gill and the Boianai mission people in
Papua New Guinea.

Early Australian historical encounters.

Australian 1947 encounters.

Australian crash retrieval stories.

The classic 1954 Sea Fury radar visual encounter.

Australian Ufology

The preservation of Australian UFO history.

UFOs SUB ROSA DOWN UNDER the Australian military & government
role in the UFO controversy a detailed report.

The Ultimate Secret fact or fiction: the Australian connection.

The Drury UFO film affair a study of a celebrated Australian
case.

Air Marshall Sir George Jones and the UFO.

THE 1966 TULLY SAUCER "NEST" - A Classic UFO physical trace
case.

A review and catalogue of Australian UFO physical trace cases.

The Rosedale UFO physical trace case.

A theoretical basis of solid light UFO cases?
Bizarre UFO light phenomena at Kiama.

The Burkes Flat bent headlight beam UFO case.

Angel Hair cases.

Regards,

Bill Chalker








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                            The Oz Files Web Site

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:44:45 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:11:10 -0400
Subject: The Oz Files Web Site


The web link for my OZ Files web site is:

http://www.theozfiles.com/


Regards,

Bill Chalker








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              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:04:39 -500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:15:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


David, List and Readers,

<snip>

 >So Moriarity, we meet again. I see you are back to your old
 >tricks of making things up as you go along.

Watch out - Col Moran is still up there on the ledge.

 >Flight #4 is a convenient modern-day scapegoat for the Roswell
 >crash because there is _no data_ on it to tell us exactly how
 >it was configured when it was launched, what direction it
 >headed, how long it was airborne, how high it got, or where it
 >ended up.

But there is far more information about Flight #4 than exists
for an "Alien Disk". Unlike many Roswell issues, there is some
documentation. Like Flight #4 did take off on June 4. They also
know that Rawins were part of the load transported to Alamogordo
(now why did they take those along?). Radar tracking was
abandoned early on- as a result of the initial flights. They
know that they used neoprene balloons. They have meteorological
data that can be used not only to predict the probable flight
path of #4, but also to verify the assumptions used by comparing
computer simulations against actual recorded flights.

All of this can be used to verify several 40 year old memories-
  the same kind of memories that proponents have to depend upon.
But, unlike the memories of "memory foil", these memories can be
verified with the written record.

<snip>

 >>(Entry for Jun 4, 1947)"...Flew regular sono buoy up in cluster
 >>of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor
on
 >>plane."

 >Actually, Moore used Crary's diary to refresh his memory,
 >because Moore didn't know what date it went up. He just knew
 >there was a missing N.M. Mogul flight in the records between
 >flight #3 in New Jersey and Flight #5 in N.M. on July 5, and
 >had some vague memories about it.

Which is more than Jessie Sr. could initially remember. At the
first interviews, he could not even remember the year of his
story-of-the-century find. If Moore's memory of an insignificant
event is to be questioned on this basis, why aren't you
questioning Marcel's?

 >Furthermore, the sentence immediately before the above entry,
 >has Crary stating, "No balloon flight again on account of
 >clouds." That confuses the situation considerably, because then
 >Crary says they sent something up anyway.

Yep- sometimes the weather just has this habit of changing on
you.

<snip>

 >>Moore's recollections, given _before_ the diary was found, fit
 >>Crary's entry.

 >Sorry, Moore didn't recall the date

And Marcel could not even recall the year.

 >and Crary's diary says nothing about radar reflectors or radar
 >tracking, which Moore claims was also used. Aside from this one
 >man's 40+ year-old memory of this, there is no evidence that
 >radar was used on this flight. Maybe it was, but there is no
 >record of it.

But they planned to try and use the radar and that was the
reason that they acquired the radar targets. More than one man
remembers the radar targets. The failure of radar tracking Moore
remembers accounts for the Rawins, as well as the fact that they
eventually dropped the idea.

"Attempts to use radar mounted atop aircraft for aerial
observation have been abandoned in favor of the radio compass"
(Project Operations Report 1/31/49. co-authored by Moore)

Do you think that this would have been mentioned if they had not
been attempting tracking by aircraft radar?

 >>At least there _is_ a record- writen, verified as authentic, and
 >>very solid.

 >Yes authentic, but what exactly do you mean by "solid?" There
 >is almost no detail about the flight here. It gives the date,
 >but not the time, a little bit about the configuration (balloon
 >array and sonobuoy) but nothing else. Certainly nothing about
 >radar tracking, direction, flight time, or impact point

Yet it is solid that they launched a flight. It is solid that
tracking was poor. It is solid that they eventually abandoned
radar. Compared to what is often accepted as evidence of a
saucer crash, this event has an amazingly solid foundation.

 >>Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
 >>data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
 >>currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
 >>to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17 miles
 >>of the ranch.

 >On the other hand, Moore's "analysis" makes a multitude of
 >_assumptions_ so that Flight #4 would drop on top of Mack
 >Brazel's head.

All simulations make a multitude of assumptions. Charles Moore
made a number of assumptions based on many years of experience,
detailed knowledge of balloons and weather systems, and years on
the NYU project. And being a careful scientist, Moore checked
his assumptions and simulations by using the known flight paths
of two other balloons, and those checked out rather well. This
prediction of the probable flight path of #4 has far more
credence than most aspects of the Roswell Saga.

 >However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
 >assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
 >miles away:

 >(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the [assumed] 343-
 >minute flight."

Whoa there David. We are talking here about Flight #4, not #5.
On your cited page, Moore discussed Flight #5, which
incidentally, did not end up in Kansas.

<snip>

 >>However, if
 >>you would like to get another opinion, you can get the weather
 >>service data from Kevin Randle. He is the one who gave the
data
 >>to Prof Moore.

 >Not necessary. Any critical analysis of Moore's model creates
 >holes big enough to fly a fleet of flying saucers through.

Lets be honest here, David. A valid critical analysis of Moore's
assumptions and the simulation of flight #4 would assume the
critic had the education, knowledge and experience to adequately
address any problems he might have with Moore's assumptions,
methods and conclusions.

So your remark is just an attempt to fend off what appears to
damaging evidence with an airy wave of the hand. Sorry, but that
won't work. Moore tested his assumptions against two other
flights, and found them valid. You, on the other hand, simply
waved your hand as your credentials.

 >In brief, Moore makes lots of assumptions, has no tracking
data,
 >and only scanty weather data.

 >>>As I recall there was _no_ radar tracking data of that flight
 >>>what so ever.

 >Now where in the world did you get the idea this was referring
 >to radar tracking by the bomber? The only radar tracking was by
 >_ground_ radar from Alamagordo. Of the 5 early recorded Moguls
 >in June/July 1947, the only one with any indication of radar
 >tracking in the Mogul summaries was the first polyethylene
 >balloon flight, #8, on July 3.

Two reasons - many Air Force bombers were fitted with radar
(Marcel received training in these units). Given the limited
range of ground radar, airborne units were one way to use this
technology, as the purpose was to eventually send these systems
over long distances.

Rawins were brought along for the purpose of radar tracking, and
Moore remembers that one of the purposes of the early flights
was to test this kind of technology.

<snip>

 >Furthermore, Moore's explanation for the lack of records on
 >Flight #4 is that they had _no tracking data_. If they had
 >been tracking the balloon visually by theodolite (Moore's
 >memory) and by radar (again Moore's memory, not documented in
 >Crary's diary), then why the complete absence of tracking data
 >that caused Flight #4 to be thrown out of Mogul records?

Because they were supposed to be tracking by radar since the
Theodolite couldn't track it far enough? Remember that they were
using sounding balloons, not pibald balloons that were designed
to be tracked by theodolite.

<snip>

 >It's not just Moore's use and interpretation of meteorological
 >records that is in question. It's other assumptions about
 >launch time, rise time, altitude, and flight time, for which
 >there is _no data._ It's all educated guesswork and assumptions
 >on Moore's part. To think that you could place the balloon with
 >a high level confidence to within even 17 miles of the ranch is
 >indeed "wishful thinking." Or perhaps it is more a matter of a
 >lack of critical thinking.

First, lets place a little emphasis on "educated guesswork".
Moore was there, and knew the flight characteristics, and the
procedures and process far better than you. He is thus in an
excellent position to make these "guesses" with a high
expectation that they are reasonably correct. You have no such
background and capability.

 >>>I find it amusing that one one hand skeptibunkers will seize
 >>>upon a skeptical theory that at best is 17 miles short and
 >>>pronounce that as a valid, scientific explaination of what
 >>>happened.

 >>Even more amusing is the notion that Moore's prediction, which
 >>came within 17 miles, is somehow a shortcoming. Talk to any
 >>meteorlogical expert (your local TV weather guy/gal would be a
 >>good source) and I will predict that you will get the opinion
 >>that Moore's data is very impressive evidence.

 >Still more amusing is your statement that "Moore's data is very
 >impressive evidence" since he had _no tracking data._ Zero,
 >nada. Moore said there were no records on Flight #4 because of
 >that.

Even still more amusing is you accepting Marcel, despite his
being totally unable to even remember the _year_ of The
Incident, then attacking Moore for not remembering the exact
date of an insignificant event.

 >The only real data Moore had was a very limited set of
 >meteorological wind data from a weather station at Orogrande 32
 >miles south of Alamogordo plus some general weather maps.

But the data used to check the other two flights wasn't all that
much better. And those were computed correctly.

<snip>

 >I won't bother you with statements in Mogul records and a
 >paper Moore cowrote about Mogul in the J. Meteorology in 1948
 >which state that they were unable to predict the direction of
 >the flights from wind data collected at surrounding weather
 >stations in Albuquerque, El Paso, and Roswell. There is even a
 >statement that they couldn't reliability predict the direction
 >from the pilot balloons they sent up at Alamogordo itself prior
 >to the actual Mogul launches. So what makes you think another
 >set of limited wind data from Orogrande will necessarily make
 >prediction any more reliable?

Is David being deliberately disingenuous here? Even today,
weather experts cannot predict _exactly_ the wind and weather
patterns=85 In Advance! Moore was using historical data on the
recorded weather, not advance predictions. Are you confused
about this?

 >Moore makes a large number of other assumptions and
 >extrapolations in his hypothetical balloon track of Flight #4
 >to Mack Brazel's corrale. This totally hypothetical balloon
 >track is probably what Bruce Hutchinson refers to as
 >"impressive data." But Moore's tables of numbers are not "data"
 >but what his model with all its assumptions predicts. I repeat,
 >Moore had no tracking data.

But Moore did have weather data, and verification that flight #4
launched. He was also able to check his assumptions and
simulations against known tracks- successfully. That is far, far
more than you can offer for your versions.

 >Anybody who thinks you can accurately predict the actual
 >trajectory of Flight #4 from this scanty weather data and
 >plethora of assumptions is living in a dream world.

<snip>

And your dream world is based on a wave of the hand?


Regards,

Bruce Hutchison








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   Jul > Jul 3

             Re: SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:19:02 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit? - Maccabee


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 03:24:47 +0200
 >Subject: SETI's Shostak: Would Aliens Visit?

 >Source: space.com

 >http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_visit_020627.html


 >Would Aliens Visit?

 >By Seth Shostak
 >Senior Astronomer, Project Phoenix
 >posted: 07:00 am ET
 >27 June 2002

**

 >When it comes to alien activities, visiting Earth seems to be
 >pretty high on the "to do" list. But does that make sense?

<snip>

 > According to the most popular view of this matter,
 >extraterrestrial craft have been flitting across our skies since
 >1947. That's 55 years in a planetary history of 4,600,000,000
 >years. If we assume for the moment that these claims are real,
 >this chronology tells us immediately that either (1) we are the
 >beneficiaries of an enormously rare event (one chance in 100
 >million, or if you want to argue that no aliens would visit
 >until they detected oxygen in our atmosphere, one chance in 40
 >million), (2) the aliens routinely visit Earth, or (3) our
 >activities (nuclear tests, environmental degradation, etc.) have
 >attracted the aliens' attention, and encouraged them to drop by.

 >The first possibility, that we just happened to luck out (being
 >around for the first and only alien encounter), is less probable
 >than that you -- not someone, but you -- will win next month's
 >lottery jackpot. It strains credulity, to use polite vernacular.

But is does happen (someone always wins,,,,, eventually!)

 >The second possibility, that Earth hosts extraterrestrials on a
 >routine basis, and therefore a visit during your lifetime is not
 >particularly improbable, deserves a bit more scrutiny. The
 >question is, how often do they visit? If it's only once in a few
 >tens of millions of years, we're back to the first possibility,
 >and the odds are highly stacked against you being one of the
 >lucky visitees. But some folk claim that aliens have glissaded
 >to Earth in historical times (five millennia ago, when the
 >pyramids were built, or one millennium ago, when the Nazca>
 >Indians elected to decorate the Peruvian desert floor with
 >glyphs of turkeys and other of their favorite fauna). If any of
 >this is true, it argues for visits at least once every 1,000
 >years or so. The problem with this is that -- barring some reason
 >for them to visit humans in particular (a possibility we
 >consider below) -- it implies that there have been millions of
 >expeditions to Earth! We may send the occasional anthropological
 >research team to Borneo, but we don't send millions. And it's a
 >lot easier to get to Borneo than to traverse hundreds or
 >thousands of light-years. This, too, seems to be an unlikely
 >explanation for visitors now.

Ummm, how should I put this nicely. Not convincing reasoning...
that sounds good. Shostak shoots down the argument that aliens
have been coming here every 1000 years by tacitly assuming that
if this were true they would have started coming a billion years
ago. 1 billion/1 thousand =3D 1 million. But, what if they didn't
start until 1 million years ago? Then "only" 1000 trips in the
last million years. Of what if they didn't start until 1000
years ago... 2 trips in a thousand years (the first 1000 years
ago, the second in 1947... with follow on trips since then
perhaps).


 >Finally, we consider door number three -- we have enticed the
 >aliens with human activity. Let's set aside the question of
 >whether advanced galactic societies would have the slightest
 >interest in our wars, our pollution problems, or our
 >reproductive systems. The real question is, how would they know
 >about us at all?

 >In fact, there's only one clear and persistent "signal" that
 >Homo sapiens has ever sent to the stars: our high-frequency
 >radio transmissions, including television and radar. The
 >Victorians (let alone the Egyptians or the Nazca Indians),
 >despite all their technical sophistication, could never have
 >been spotted from light-years away. Humans have been making
 >their presence known to the universe only for the last 70 years
 >or so.

 >And that's a problem. It means that even if, after receiving an
 >earthly transmission, the aliens can immediately scramble their
 >spacecraft and fly to Earth at the speed of light, they can't be
 >farther than 8 light- years away to have arrived by 1947. There
 >are four star systems within this distance. Count em, four.
 >We're back to winning the lottery.

He ignores the possibility of chance discovery while touring the
galaxy. He ignores the possilibility that aliens detected the
early radio signals of Tesla and Marconi. One can think of other
possibilities.... such as they knew we were here all along
because they put us here.....


 >What about warp drive? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and
 >get here in essentially no time. It doesn't matter. Our signals
 >travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with
 >infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens can't be farther off than
 >15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947. The
 >number of star systems within 15 light-years is about three
 >dozen. There would have to be 10 billion technically
 >sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable
 >chance of finding one camped out among the nearest three dozen
 >stars. That's optimism of a high level indeed.

Statistics don't lie, statisticians do.....

 >It's nice to think that either Earth or its human inhabitants
 >have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors, but
 >encouraged them to visit. But frankly, the numbers don't give
 >much support to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

Shostak has outlined the statistical theory of non-visitation by
aliens. However, theories have been known to bite the dust when
confronted with data. I claim there are UFO sightings which (a)
are un explainable in mundane terms and (b) present evidence of
NHI (non-human intelligence).

Time to revise the statistics?








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              Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:21:17 -0400
Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin


 >From: Boris Shurinov <shurinov@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin
 >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 04:17:09 +0000

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:04:40 -0400
 >>Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:31:56 +0200
 >>>Subject: New Russian Book 'Proves' War-Industry Origin Of UFOs

 >>>The link to the text below refers to the book's own site.

 >>>http://res.krasu.ru/liq_ufo/ann_eng.htm

 >>>The author, Pavel Poluyan, has just been interviewed on
 >>PRAVDA.ru. The link and the first part is available at the end
 >>>of this mail.

 >>Seems as if the writer is a semi-idiot.

 >No, Bruce. The translation was correct. This "specialist" must
 >be a complete fool.

Thanks for confirmating my suspicion.

Incidently, I visited Poluyan's web site and left him a nice
message. <LOL>







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              Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:20:19 -0400
 >Subject: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >Dear Readers:

 >The world is clearly a far more dangerous place than we'd
 >thought. When one-fanged dogs aren't drawing the blood of
 >thousands of animals around the world, small red-muzzled mice
 >are feasting on beef cattle. This is a news item concerning the
 >"final report" by SENASA.

============================



 >SOURCE: EFE News Service
 >DATE: July 1, 2002

 >Final report made known today
 >AUTHORITIES EXPLAIN ARGENTINEAN CATTLE DEATHS
 >www.terra.cl

 >Small carnivorous mouse known as "red muzzle" (hocicudo rojizo)
 >was responsible for mysterious mutilations. (EFE)

I wonder if one of those mice is named Mickey?

I also wonder if the mice are epicures... you know, very picky
eaters (only certain areas of the body are eaten).

I also envision the mice fighting off the wolves and dogs and
other predators so that the corpse will remain untouched after
the mice have finished their epicurean delights.







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   Jul > Jul 3

                 Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:59:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:26:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:16:34 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:23 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >Richard, List and Readers,

 >>Bob and other skeptibunkers excel at force-fitting data to
 >>support their preconceived conclusions. It had to be a Mogul
 >>balloon, therefore the vaguest and most incomplete evidence of
 >>such is presented as absolute fact.

 >Moore didn't "force fit" the data. He used the data that was
 >supplied by Kevin Randle and put it in a model that he checked
 >by using the data from other flights. It correctly predicted the
 >approximate crash of the other balloons.

 >Force fitting is using the testimony of people like Ragsdale,
 >Dennis, Anderson, etc. to justify a crash of an alien spaceship.
 >IF it is skeptibunkers (TM) who force fit the data, why can't
 >the Pro-Roswell researchers agree on the date of the crash, the
 >location of the crash, what the craft looked like, how many
 >bodies there were, what the debris on the floor of Ramey's
 >office really was, what the telegram stated, etc.?

 >>Never let it be said that skeptibunkers engage in anything
 >>approaching objective analysis of important UFO cases; they know
 >>the answers in advance (ALL UFOs have prosaic explanations) and
 >>"prove" them by advancing totally unsubstantiated and often
 >>counter-to-fact claims.

 >Totally unsubstantiated ? That would require the testimony of
 >Ragsdale, Dennis, Kaufmann, Anderson, etc. The irony is that the
 >skeptical explanation was found not by skeptics but by UFO
 >researchers, fits the newspaper accounts, the FOIA documents,
 >the photos, etc.


Bruce,

You are setting up a "straw man" argument here. I wasn't talking
about Roswell except tangentally. It is a very complex case with
many facets, and a handful of discredited witnesses does (do)
not undermine the core evidence. I stand by my comments which
apply very well to the three specific cases I cited, and many
dozens of others as well, and my points have been amply
illustrated on this list.

However, since you raised the issue re: Roswell, my argument
does apply to the efforts to force-fit a Mogul balloon
explanation for the debris field. David Rudiak has argued this
point very well, and I won't repeat his arguments. As the
"legal" custodian of the Roswell interview videotapes (some
bootleg copies have been floating around) I am well aware of
strong witness testimony that utterly contradicts the Mogul
hypthesis.

Last night I watched the videotape presentation by Bob Durant,
in which he made a devastating case against the Mogul
hypothesis. It is just an "hypothesis," you know. Not the
established fact that some people would like to pretend. The
bottom line is that no one knows what the candidate flight was
carrying in the way of gear or where it landed. The material
described by witnesses only superficially resembled radar
reflector material; no plastic, ropes, wires, etc. The size of
the debris field reported by Rickett and others and the quantity
of material also militate against a Mogul array, much less a
typical radar reflector. It would have had to explode at some
altitude (from what cause?) in order to shower down over the
wide area reported.

This, of course, doesn't prove that it was a spaceship that
crashed there. But it does illustrate the "force-fitting"
phenomenon I reported.


  - Dick








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                 Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:16:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:27:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hall


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:05:38 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >Mac, List and Readers,

 >>The whole "novelty tape" scenario is rather bizarre. I
 >>personally can accept that such tape was used for Mogul arrays,
 >>but I find it perplexing that none of it has survived for
 >>inspection.

 >Huhhh??  Now why on Earth would anyone have wanted to save a
 >portion of this tape back in 1944??  Go to any novelty/toy store
 >and observe how many different types of novelty tapes there are.
 >Now consider how many different designs have been produced since
 >1950.  Do you honestly think that the makers should carefully
 >archive each design- just in case someone uses it to reinforce a
 >UFO?


Bruce,

This whole tape discussion perplexes me! In the first place, as
Bob Durant's Roswell video reminded me, the symbols that Jesse
Marcel, Jr., saw were not on tape attached to anything but were
*engraved* on the inner surface (in the groove) of the I-beam.
Tape would serve no purpose there.

Secondly, I agree with Mac that some record of the floral tape
used on Moguls should exist somewhere. It would be a very
meaningful research project for someone to determine who the
contractor was that provided it, and to contact the company that
produced it if it still exists, and/or to locate old catalogues
and find at least a photograph or drawing.

You intimated in a previous post that Moore had done some
research on this question. Please don't keep us in suspense;
what did he find? We can't all read every book on the subject.


- Dick








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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:33:43 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Reason


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

Ok, hi everyone,

This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

<snip>

 >What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong about being
 >skeptical? Why are people labeled "Skeptics" on this list and
 >other lists as if they have some type of horrible disease?

Well, I guess this is what happens when a word becomes hijacked
by a particular group of people to mean something other than
what it was originally supposed to mean.

I don't believe there's wrong with skepticism, if by skepticism
you mean a strong sense of discernment, which I assume is what
you mean.  On the other hand though, not everyone who claims to
be a skeptic is necessarily a skeptic -- in the same way that
just because someone claims to be an honest purveyor of used
automobiles doesn't necessarily mean that's what they are.

In particular, I don't think there's anything particularly
skeptical or discerning about the misrepresentation or selective
representation of evidence, or about dishonest reporting of
facts, or about the sloppy and inaccurate application of
scientific principles.

A little while ago I came upon a book in my university's library
called 'The UFO Verdict', which was written by someone who I
remember described himself at the time as a skeptic (I don't
know if he's still in business).

What I remember about the book is that in order to get at the
ten percent (or thereabouts) of actual content, one first had to
deconstruct about ninety percent of spin, attribution and
general hand-waving argument about the supposed unreliability of
the human visual system.

I find that sort of thing particularly irritating, because the
alleged systematic unreliability of human visual perception is
one of those academic folk-mythologies, which has been around
since the dawn of academic psychology without ever having had
any real scientific evidence to back it up. The human visual
system is subject to inaccuracies, just like any other
instrument, but if one has some understanding of how the system
works, it's relatively easy to predict the types of errors that
can occur.

Now I don't know if it was outright dishonesty or simply shoddy
scholarship, but either way its irresponsible in the extreme and
people who do this have no business representing themselves as
skeptics, in my opinion. I do not know how anyone reading that
book would have been able to puzzle their way through all the BS
unless they already had some fairly detailed knowledge of the
human visual system.

I would like to say it was an exception but sadly, I don't
really believe it is, if the stuff I occasionally see from
CSICOP and the Skeptics' Society is anything to go on.

BTW, I wouldn't want to get into a long Phil Sci discussion
here, but I think the days of total skepticism went out with
Logical Positivism. Outright skepticism leads inevitably to
solipsism. Sooner or later everyone ends up having to compromise
their skepticism over something or other, whether they admit it
or not.


Cathy Reason








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   Jul > Jul 3

                         Re: Birnes on Corso? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:22:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:35:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso? - Hall


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:53:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso?

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:40:10 EDT
 >>Subject: Birnes on Corso?

 >>Somebody got me the below... I thought Listers would be
 >>interested in excerpts of this apparent interview between Birnes
 >>and somebody else back in '97 or thereabouts. My comments are in
 >>brackets

 >As I recall. Col. Corse met with a number of researchers in
 >Roswell in 1994 or 1995 and wanted to interest them in his
 >involvement in the Roswell incident. It wasn't really made
 >clear at the time what his involvement was, and most of the
 >researchers simply took his story with a "grain of salt" and
 >moved on, but two years later The Day After Roswell was
 >released and he began his promotion of it.

 >Some others on this list might have been at that event, and
 >they might be able to expand on this. But this seems to
 >contradict some of the story that Birnes is telling now.

 >Steve

I have Corso on videotape holding forth at the Roswell
anniversary about his exploits. I also have Pflock on the same
tape embracing crash-test dummies (not physically, of course).
Must be the air in New Mexico!


- Dick








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                    EW: 30 Billion Earth-Like Exoplanets

From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior_electricwarrior_com@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:47:50 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:38:30 -0400
Subject: EW: 30 Billion Earth-Like Exoplanets



From: The Electric Warrior (Kurt Jonach)

--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Web Log July 2, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
30 BILLION EARTH-LIKE EXOPLANETS
alternative science

photo: Earth (Apollo 13)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/EarthApollo13.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - Astronomers now think there might be as
many as 30 billion earth-like planets within our own Milky Way
galaxy. If they're right, then Earth is not alone.

The recent discovery of a Jupiter-sized world in its own solar
system sets the count of candidates to a symbolically important
total of 100 extrasolar planets.

Although we won't know for sure until the next generation of
space-based telescopes are in place, scientists are now willing
to speculate that earth- sized planets may be as common as the
gas giants we already observe.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

01-Jul-02
Scientists estimate 30 billion Earths
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2078000/2078507.stm

(BBC) - Virtually all the stars out to about 100 light-years
distant have been surveyed. Of these 1,000 or so stars, about
10% have been found to possess planetary systems.

02-Jul-02
Planet Tally Soars to Near 100, Astronomers Scramble to Keep Track
http://space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/extrasolar_100_020702.html

(Space.com) - There was a time when discoveries of extrasolar
planets made big headlines. Now they are so common that they
sometimes pass into the public domain with little fanfare...
Science is proceeding as it always does: Things are found. Some
are verified. Some are tossed out.

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
July 2, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the content of Web
links. Content reproduced here is for informational purposes
only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:40:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:05:38 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>The whole "novelty tape" scenario is rather bizarre. I
 >>personally can accept that such tape was used for Mogul arrays,
 >>but I find it perplexing that none of it has survived for
 >>inspection.

 >Huhhh??  Now why on Earth would anyone have wanted to save a
 >portion of this tape back in 1944??  Go to any novelty/toy store
 >and observe how many different types of novelty tapes there are.
 >Now consider how many different designs have been produced since
 >1950.  Do you honestly think that the makers should carefully
 >archive each design- just in case someone uses it to reinforce a
 >UFO?

No, I wouldn't expect every novelty tape design to be sealed
under glass and notarized. But I don't think it's unreasonable
to expect some sort of indication when the stuff was made, and
perhaps even a general idea of what it looked like.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies
http://mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html








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                             Re: NIDS? - Cameron

From: From: Grant Cameron <gcameron@usa.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:43:58 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS? - Cameron


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:48:05 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: NIDS?

 >Hi Listers,

 >Recently heard a story that Bigelow has curtailed or
 >cutback NIDS.


Story is true. Many cutbacks have taken place. Bigalow is much
more concerned about the things of this world than other worlds
at the present time.

This does not mean that the research has stopped. Many of those
formally inside NIDS are still in contact (in some cases have
been in contact for 20 or more years) and they are still making
discoveries.

The NIDS dudes rarely publish what they are working on and what
they have discovered - so don't hold your breath waiting.


Grant

"Marijuana? Cocaine? I'm not going to
talk about what I did as a child."
                      --George W. Bush








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               Re: Report On USUFOIRC Conference In Tennessee

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 07:00:48 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:47:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Report On USUFOIRC Conference In Tennessee


Source: Elizabethton Star - Tennessee

July 1, 2002

http://www.starhq.com/html/localnews/0602/063002UFOS.html


Stig

***

UFOs: Extraordinary discoveries require extraordinary evidence

By Thomas Wilson
STAR STAFF
twilson@starhq.com

**

FLAG POND -- Between Johnson City and Asheville, Highway 107
rises into the mountainous terrain of southern Unicoi County.

Free of light pollution, a driver or stargazer can look up at
the Milky Way galaxy and wonder, "Is there anything out there?"
An organization based in Unicoi has been attempting to answer
that question for over eight years.

"When I was a child growing up in Limestone, I remember lying
out on the old well cistern we had, looking up at the stars,"
said Allen McGee, president of the United States UFO Information
and Research Center of Unicoi.

McGee is the director of the United States UFO Information and
Research Center. An amateur astronomer for over 20 years, he
founded the organization in 1994. Today, he and other Center
investigators actively probe a wide range of phenomena including
sightings of the commonly known unidentified flying object
(UFO).

The UFO Center held its eighth annual conference at Roan
Mountain last weekend bringing several attendees and three guest
lecturers to discuss matters related to UFOs and paranormal
phenomenon.

McGee said the Center's mission statement was to carry out
detailed, accurate investigations information regarding UFOs and
other paranormal phenomenon.

He also said he had talked to several people who related
encounters with what they believed were extraterrestrial
vehicles and visitors from beyond the planet Earth.

The mystery of UFOs and alien creatures has captured the
public's imagination in recent decades, thanks in no small part
to science fiction literature, motion pictures, and "The X-
  Files."

Searching for UFOs is no longer limited to what most mainstream
society classifies as "fringe elements," he added.

"It is very difficult to get people to talk about it locally,"
said McGee. "We have had people in years past see something in
the night sky and being fearful of reporting it."

McGee said he and several colleagues have observed unidentified
lights and objects in the skies about the Tri-Cities including
above the mountains of Unicoi County between Erwin and the North
Carolina state line near Sam's Gap.

The Center's Web site at dreaman.org features photographs and
links to UFO and paranormal phenomenon from around the world.

Of course, an unidentified flying object could be anything from
a plane disappearing behind a cloud to a moving spotlight on
low-level cloud cover emanating from a St. Patrick's Day blowout
at Bennigan's.

Extraordinary discoveries require extraordinary evidence, which
is what McGee said the Center's investigators have been
gathering.

The Center is not alone in conducting scientific research into
the phenomenon of extraterrestrial life.

The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute
based in Mountain View, Calif., has been scrutinizing radio
signals in the vicinities of nearby sun-like stars since 1995 in
an attempt to detect an alien signal.

The Institute's Web site reads that their search is based on
science -- not photographs, myths, or conspiracy theories.

The SETI Institute was featured in the film "Contact" starring
Jodie Foster and Matthew McConaughey. No SETI search has yet
received a confirmed, extraterrestrial signal.

The UFO Research and Information Center is the parent
organization of "The ARC -- Alternate Realities Center," which
conducts research into the nature of UFO phenomenon, and other
"paranormal" subjects.

The Center gathers information from smaller groups such as the
Southern Appalachia UFO Network (SAUN), said McGee. The Center
has members in all 50 states and 18 countries.

The 2003 ARC Conference has already entered the planning stages,
he added.

McGee said phenomenon such as crop circles appearing in wheat
fields and thousands of sightings of objects around the world
meant UFOs were not a mass hallucination, but a collection of
similar events worthy of investigation.

"This is a real phenomenon that is happening in our reality,"
said McGee. "Reality as we know it is not as cut and dried as
we'd like to think it is."

**

Copyright =A9 1996 - 2002 Elizabethton Newspapers, Inc.

Direct questions or comments to webmaster@starhq.com
Elizabethton Newspapers, Inc., 300 Sycamore Street
Elizabethton, Tennessee 37643 - 423.542.4151








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                    Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 01:07:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:49:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Gates


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:46:25 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:21:48 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

 >>>From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >>>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100

 >>>Breakout Of The Fictions

 >><snip>

 >>>The MJ12 group was a proud techno-aristocracy. Well-heeled
 >>>and over-protected, and presumably as fond of decadent games
 >>>as is every aristocracy. Could some of these socially
 >>>isolated people, over-endowed with brain (as was Borges), in
 >>>a supremely decadent moment, have cooked something up from
 >>>this story? Inward looking, and possibly in a state of shock
 >>>after the most intense five years any human could live
 >>>through, they faced an immediate post-war world that they did
 >>>not understand, and moreover a world that had taken their
 >>>youth away, and given almost all of them fatal cancers. As
 >>>Eisenhower hinted, certainly Borges' ideas could have
 >>>represented to them a kind of fantastic super- science, the
 >>>next quantum step as regards conceptions of Matter and Idea,
 >>>and there were as many forms of such things flying around Los
 >>>Alamos in the late forties as there were desert flies. As
 >>>Friedman and the Woods have so convincingly demonstrated, the
 >>>MJ12 papers show access to vintage top-secret material. Is it
 >>>possible that like the heresiarchs of Uqbar, the elite of the
 >>>military-industrial-complex attempted the experiment of
 >>>seeding powerful suggestions if only to sit back and watch
 >>>such new-born information animals attempt to clone
 >>>themselves, producing almost-appearances and almost-objects
 >>>such as the UFO?

 >>>And when they had done so, did they attempt unsuccessfully to
 >>>shut the pile down?

 >>I think you give too much weight to the research of Friedman and
 >>the Woods in the MJ-12 affair (no offense intended to either
 >>party).

 >>They have laid out their arguments, but few researchers give
 >>much credence to the MJ-12 papers, and none have (to my
 >>knowledge) provenance that can be verified.

 >>There are several good arguments to show that the SOM-101 manual
 >>is not valid, and what most probably don't realize is that the
 >>manual was received long before it was publicized by Friedman in
 >>his book.

 >I have still not seen these "good" arguments succeed. I have
 >seen false reasoning, a rush to judgement, etc. I can't imagine
 >why most people wouldn't realize that the manual was received
 >well before my book 'TOP SECRET/MAJIC' was published. After all
 >I noted on page 161, first page of Chapter 9 "The Majestic 12
 >Operations Manual", that Don Berliner had received the manual in
 >March of 1994 but that I hadn't become aware of it until Dec.
 >1994, when Don slipped up and made a brief comment about it.

 >Judging by the many false arguments I can imagine that most
 >people haven't read TSM, nor the 108 page, 1990 'Final Report on
 >Operation Majestic 12', nor my MUFON 2000 paper 'Roswell and the
 >MJ-12 Documents In The New Millennium' in which I deal with
 >objections.

Hi Stan, all,

Stans books and papers are excellent reading and should be in
any serious researchers library.

The simple reality is that highly classified, highly
compartmentalized groups have worked within the US government
for years doing various projects and what not. For example
during the Iranian Rescue mission planning prior to April 24th
1980 all the planning was done at the TS/Codeword level. That
codeword was "Rice Bowl". Once the mission become "operational"
the codeword was changed to the well known "Eagle Claw."  Many
people in govt were not privy to the information and planning.

 >But why let the facts stand in the way of a loud proclamation?

 >For example, are most people aware that Phil Klass paid me
 >$1000. for providing 10 NSC documents done in the same large
 >PICA type as the CT memo, though he claimed on the basis of 9 of
 >the 250,000 Eisenhower Library NSC comment that it should have
 >had elite type? The check is in FR on MJ-12".

 >Many claimed that the security marking TOP SECRET RESTRICTED was
 >absolutely wrong. Sorry, the GAO found a number of examples of
 >this in still classified documents. CSICOP's Senior Research
 >Fellow Joe Nickell claimed that the date format 18 November,
 >1952, was wrong because it violated the government style manual
 >(the comma after November). I have located many documents,
 >definitely genuine, that have the same date format (2 by MJ -12
 >members Smith and Hillenkoetter) and many others.

All the people who raise the comma, Top Secret Control numbers
and classification markings have never been to the archives and
reviewed thousands of pages of formerly highly classified
documents. Stan has. I was fortunate to have been as well. You
find a hodge podge of documents, formats, classification
markings and so forth, even though the official government
manuals or whatever say that they have to be done in a certain
way.

 >Some falsely proclaim that all TS documents have to have TS
 >Control numbers. In 'FR on MJ-12' I had published 4 genuine TS
 >documents that did not... and there are many others. Some claim
 >that Osborn in 'Questioned Documents' (Supposedly 1978)shows
 >that if the 2 Truman signatures are identical (They are not) one
 >must be fraudulent. Actually Osborn, (which was really written
 >in 1910 _not_ 1978) says one can have essentially identical
 >signatures, but not consecutively. The 2 Truman signatures are
 >a week apart.

 >Some objected to dates in SOM being too early. Then it was
 >discovered that Berliner hadn't had a print made of the Change
 >page, which helps destroy that argument. There is much more in
 >the above referenced items all available from UFORI see:

 >www.v-j- enterprises.com/sfpage.html

 >>Efforts had gotten underway to try and check its provenance
 >>before it began to impact the genre in a negative way, but some
 >>felt the need to get this information out.

 >We don't know who Deep throat was either. Does that mean his
 >data was wrong?We do know the roll of film was sent from La
 >Crosse Wisconsin. Let's face it, for somebody with a high
 >security clearance to photograph a Classified document and
 >distribute it, is a clear violation of the law.He was at risk.
 >Having unauthorized possession of a classified document in the
 >US is not illegal, though it is in the UK.

As I recall Bill Moore stated/said that the roll of film was
shipped from Alburqurque New Mexico, based upon the Alburqurque
post mark on the envelope. Allegedly no other marks or otherwise
were on the envelope. Where did Wisconsin come from?

Cheers,

Robert








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                        UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 21:02:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 05:31:57 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 27
July 2, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CATTLE MUTILATIONS
SPREAD TO URUGUAY

       The unprecedented wave of cattle mutilations, which
began at Salliquelo in Argentina's Buenos Aires province
two months ago, has now spread across the border into the
neighboring country of Uruguay.
       On Monday, June 24, 2002, "the discovery of a dead
cow whose tongue, eyes and genitals were extracted in a
livestock region of the Uruguayan interior has raised
concerns in that country."
       "The first case was reported today in the Department
(state) of Durazno, some 300 kilometers (180 miles) from
Montevideo," the capital of Uruguay, "and resembles cases
which have occurred" in nine provinces of Argentina.
       "Intendent (Mayor) Carmelo Vidallin tried to calm
down rumors by saying that 'we must await the experts'
verdict,' referring to the Ministry of Livestock and
Agriculture, which is looking into the matter."
       "'It is remarkable that the animal was slain for
purposes other than eating,' said the intendent, adding
that 'there are many hypotheses because matters are always
this way in a small town.'"
       "No signs of blood or of a struggle between the
predator and its victim were found--an indication that
suggests mystery and feeds speculation among local
residents."
       The following day, Tuesday, June 25, 2002, "As
occurred in Durazno...another cow has been found dead with
perfect cauterized incisions on its head and sides.  Its
tongue and salivary glands had been removed, along with
its mammaries, rectum, part of the large intestine and
genitalia."
       "This time it occurred in Cardona, in the Department
(state) of Soriano, according to Hipolito Tapie, Director
of Livestock Health of the Ministry of Livestock and
Agriculture.  Tapie reported that specialists from
(Uruguay's) Secretary of State had already drawn samples
from the two animals found dead in Uruguay."
       "'Our own specialists went to extract samples in
order to submit them to lab analysis in the hopes of
discovering something,' Tapie added, 'We don't have much
because only a single animal was found in Durazno.  The
same is happening in Cardona.  Just a single animal.'"
(See the June 25, 2002 broadcast of Uruguay's Radio El
Espectador.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria
Coluchi para esas noticias.)


MUTILATION COUNT HITS
170 IN ARGENTINA

       Argentina's wave of cattle mutilations continued
without letup last week.  Dead and mutilated cows were
found in nine provinces ranging from Entre Rios in the
north to Chubut in the south.  The mutilation total has
reached 170.
       On Friday, June 21, 2002, "in southern Buenos Aires
province," farmers discovered the carcass "of a 9-month-
old, 250-kilogram Aberdeen Angus calf showing signs of
mutilation."
       "At Digue, north of Bahia Blanca, the toll has risen
to nine dead and mutilated bovines."
       "At La Pampa, 10 kilometers (6 miles) southeast of
Abramo, a shorthorn cow was found with its jaw, tongue and
udders mutilated, according to Edgar Suarez, the officer
in charge of the local constabulary."
       "Cattle rancher Oscar Alvarez, the animal's owner,
also reported an Aberdeen Angus and a Hereford cow, both
mutilated in a similar fashion."
       "A dead cow also turned up in Jacinto Arauz," the
site of a similar mutilation three weeks ago.
       "In the department of Lihuel Cahuel, on the border of Rio Negro
province, a four-year-old Aberdeen Angus cow was found mutilated in a San
Laureano pasture field belonging to Ricardo Lavandera."
       On Thursday, June 20, 2002, "the remains of a cow
showing signs of mutilation were found in the community of
Maria Grande.  The animal had its tail sliced off along
with its genitalia, masticatory muscles and tongue.  It
was also further reported that the animal had been dead
for two or three days."
       Also that day, "an animal showing the same signs or
cuts was found in a pasture of the Diamante region.  The
Diamante case was found in a field located near Costa
Grande and belonging to Adriana Trossero, as reported by
local veterinarians to the police, who immediately ordered
that analyses be performed on the animal."
       "The day before yesterday (i.e. Thursday, June 20,
2002) it was in Gobernador Ugarte, 25 de Mayo and in
Bolivar.  Today (Saturday, June 22, 2002) it was Roque
Perez's turn.  In a field 10 kilometers (6 miles) from the
city (Roque Perez) towards the south along the Camino
Real, Pedro Conserna, 79, a cattleman who had lived in the
vicinity for 51 years with his son, Abel, and the family"
raising Aberdeen Angus cows, reported a mutilation.
       "The Conserna family told" the Argentinian newspaper
La Manana "that they weren't startled at first,
considering that a storm front had gone past and 'we
thought a bolt of lightning may have killed them.'  But
later they revealed that 'there is a suggestion of the
inexplicable because we noticed the absence of udders,
tongues, eyes and ears in all three cases.  It's also
curious that the incisions appear to have been made with a
sharp, hot object,' they added."
       Meanwhile, in La Pampa province, "eight more
mutilated animals were found Friday (June 21, 2002) at
Lots 2 and 22 of the Department of Curaco, 50 kilometers
(30 miles) south of Puelches.  This was confirmed by
Deputy Sheriff Omar Martinez."
       "Two of the carcasses were found on Lot 22 in a field
owned by Augusto Valdome," and the remains "are that of
two cows missing genitalia, an eye, an ear and part of the
jawbone."
       "Furthermore, two additional cows and a calf were
found on a field, also on Lot 22, owned by Julio Rogge.
The first two were missing the same organs as in the
foregoing (Valdome) case but the calf was missing its
lungs, heart and entrails."
       "In a third field, police officers discovered three
cows in a pasture on Lot 2, owned by Sara Aguerre.  The
carcasses were also missing the genitals, udders, ears,
eyes and showed deep cuts on their jawbones."
       "Deputy Sheriff Martinez noted that the remains of
the calf's head found on Rogge's field will be sent to the
National University of La Pampa's School of Veterinary
Medicine.  The police took the sample due to the strange
bluish discoloration found (on the calf's head--S.C.)."
        In the northwest, near Santiago del Estero, "the
police precinct of Garza confirmed yesterday (Saturday,
June 22, 2002) the discovery of a heifer with its parts
sectioned off.  The event occurred under unknown
circumstances and the incisions recall those now seen on a
daily basis in the fields of the provinces of La Pampa and
Buenos Aires."
       "The animal was found yesterday in a hilly region of
the place known as Quimilioj, in the department of San
Martin, by a local resident, Joaquin Lemos.  'The cow
apparently died two days ago (June 20, 2002), and it was
found that some of the cow's body parts were missing,
apparently its eyes and udders, reported police."
       "'There appears to be no putrefaction and, while
carrion birds presumably approached the animal, they did
not touch it,' added the police source."
       "Meanwhile, police from Precinct 38 of Garza
maintained in its report to authorities in the
(provincial) capital that no tire tracks or footprints
were found near the animal, nor anything that could
suggest the presence of cattle rustlers."
       "In Darregueria, Guillermo Garcia, foreman of a
pasture field in Susana Torres in the Puan district, found
the head of a calf protruding from its mother's abdomen.
Both cow and calf had been mutilated and were missing
tongues, eyes and ears."
       Elsewhere in northern Argentina, the mutilation flap
hit high gear in the province of Entre Rios.  "Two new
cases increased the death toll in Entre Rios to 16.  The
breakdown of what is known so far about the mutilated
animals in the province is as follows: one in Lucas Sud
Primera (dept. of Villeguay); two in Aldea Asuncion (dept.
of Gulaleguay); one in Costa Grande and another in Las
Cuevas (dept. of Diamante); one at Pedro Vallejos (dept.
of La Paz); one at Sola (dept. of Rosario del Tala); two
in the Third District of Gulaleguay, one in Hasenkamp, two
at Santa Luisa and two in Maria Grande Segunda."
       "Two new mutilated cow cases were made known at this
time, having occurred in the department of Nogoya.  One of
the animals was found at Laurencena and the other at
Seccion Urquiza."
       Veterinarian Pablo Seeling "notified his superiors of
the discovery, recalling that the Laurencena case involved
'a bull missing part of its testicles and tongue, which
had been extracted in a very special (unusual) way.'"
       "'What makes these characteristics special is the
fact that one must have a special scalpel or something to
make a cut as clean as the one on the animal.  I don't
want to think about aliens or anything, but I wonder how
one could make such a precise incision,'" Seeling said.
"'I made an incision with my scalpel next to the existing
one, and it was completely different.'"
       Seeling "noted that in any event the animal had been
dead for about five days, and its flesh looked 'like what
one would find in the butcher's shop.  (i.e. fresh and
unspoiled--J.T.)  This was something that attracted our
attention immediately.'"
(See the following Argentinian newspapers: El Tribuno of
Salta for June 21, 2002, "Another dead cow found in Maria
Grande;" La Manana for June 22, 2002, "Cattle mutilations
extend to Roque Perez;" La Arena of Santa Rosa, La Pampa
for June 23, 2002, "Eight more cases in Puelches;" El
Liberal of Santiago del Estero for June 23, 2002, "Heifer
killed in Garza;" El Diario de Parana for June 26, 2002,
"Two more mutilation cases in Entre Rios" and the TELAM
News Agency report for June 22, 2002.  Muchas gracias a
Scott Corrales, Gloria Coluchi, Alicia Rossi y Proyecto
Catent para todos los articulos de diario sobre esas
noticias.)


FIRST SHEEP MUTILATION
OCCURS IN ARGENTINA

       "A pregnant sheep was found 'hollowed out' in Coronel
Pringles, 120 kilometers (72 miles) north of Bahia
Blanca," in southern Buenos Aires province in Argentina.
       "The animal found dead at Coronel Pringles was 'a
very pregnant sheep with cuts in the jawbone and missing
its tongue and an eye,' according to veterinarian Alberto
Sensi, who inspected it on the property of Juan Carlos
Ibarguren, some 85 kilometers (52 miles) from the
provincial seat."
       "'We found no tracks or footprints, and the rest of
the herd was very far from the hill on which we found the
dead animal,'" Sensi reported.  (See the TELAM News Agency
report for June 25, 2002.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales
y Projecto Condor para esas noticias.)


ANOTHER HORSE REPORTED
MUTILATED IN ARGENTINA

       "A racehorse of the Quarter Horse breed belonging to
stables at Choele Choel" in Argentina's Rio Negro province
"was found dead with strange mutilations."
       "Veterinarian Carlos Montobbio, who certified the
case, reported that the horse was missing an eye and part
of its tongue, but no incisions on the maxillary (jaw) had
been performed.  It had also been castrated and a
significant part of its small intestine and rectum had
been removed."
       "'It was as though it had been hollowed out from
within,' a police source reported."
       Montobbio "dismissed the possibility of an attack by
'yellow-jacket' wasps," saying, "'The surgical incisions
presented on the animals cannot have been made by insects.
The wounds were cauterized.'"
       "This case, unlike others occurred 2,000 meters
(6,600 feet) from the causeway connecting Choele Choel
with the island."  (See the Argentinian newspapers La
Nueva Provincia of Bahia Blanca for June 27, 2002, "Second
horse is mutilated," and Diario Rio Negro for June 24,
2002, "Another horse found dead in Choele Choel rural
area."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi
para esos articulos de diario.)


MUTILATION SCARE CLAIMS
WILD ANIMALS, TOO

       Argentina's wild animals have also been claimed by
the strange wave of mutilations sweeping that South
American country.
       In Chubut province, in the far south of Argentina, "a
guanaco (a small llama--J.T.) showing signs of mutilation
on its jaw, anus, ear and one eye was found on the beach
at Punta Pardelas, on the Valdes Peninsula, 200 kilometers
(120 miles) north of Rawson."
       "The report came from a rural foreman and was made to
the Sheriff's Office at Puerto Piramide, which, in turn,
notified the authorities of (the province of) Chubut, who
sent a team of experts from the Provincial Conservation
Agency."
(Editor's Comment: Puerto Piramide...Spanish for Port
Pyramid.  How's that for a Fortean lexilink?)
       "The agency's director, Nestor Garcia, who headed the
delegation, stated that the case was identical to the cow
and sheep mutilations in" the provinces of La Pampa, Rio
Negro, Buenos Aires and Entre Rios.  "Garcia noted that
'what is strange is that there are no tracks to be found
in the vicinity, except for the animal's own tracks on the
beach during its last minutes of life.'"
       "'I can't determine how long the animal had been
there, but it could be that it has been longer than three
days.  This will depend on the autopsy performed by
specialists from the Centro Nacional Patagonico (National
Center for Patagonia), headquartered in Puerto Madryn,
where we took the carcass,' he explained."
       The next day, Monday, June 24, 2002, "another dead
guanaco was found 5 kilometers (3 miles) north of Puerto
Piramide with mutilated ears, missing an eye and with no
sign of any tracks around it."
       Then came the report of "the discovery in Rio
Colorado of a wild boar showing strange incisions."
       "Cattleman Nestor Soule, owner of a ranch 55
kilometers (33 miles) from Rio Colorado, in the department
of Pichimahuida, found the boar last Sunday (June 23,
2002) near a gully.  The animal, he explained, had
geometrically perfect incisions and was missing the anus,
tongue and jaw.  To the surprise of the rancher and the
foreman accompanying him, the animal was still soft in
spite of the minus 14 Centigrade temperature (17 degrees
Fahrenheit) recorded on the thermometer."
       "'It's impossible that an animal could remain in this
condition after death and after such cold, but I was
surprised not to find any tracks nearby,' said Soule.  the
rancher chose not to file a police report but did put the
boar carcass in his pickup truck to show his neighbors.
He later left it in the wilderness."
       "'Due to its traits, a boar is an animal that is able
to smell any living creature at quite a distance...that is
why it flees at the slightest sign of any peril,' Soule
explained, 'I'm not a researcher or anything similar, and
that's why I don't know what to say.  But this is strange
and I never saw anything like it before."  (See the
Argentinian newspapers El Chubut  for June 25, 2002,
"Strange phenomenon reaches Chubut: two guanacos
mutilated," and La Nueva Provincia of Bahia Blanca for
June 27, 2002.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Gloria
Coluchi, Christian Quintero de Projector Condor y tambien
Proyecto Catent para esos articulos de diario.)


UFOs SIGHTED IN TWO
PROVINCES OF ARGENTINA

       "Several residents" of Carhue, in Argentina's Buenos
Aires province, "claimed to have seen strange lights
related to the presence of UFOs."
       "Manuel Alesso and Raul Blengio, two rural cattlemen
owning property in the Paraje Cilley area, 10 kilometers
(6 miles) from Carhue.  They saw these lights in the same
way as did other witnesses in different parts of the
province."
       "'Between 7:30 and 8 p.m., I was touring the fields
of Arroyo Venado when I saw two lights to the northeast,'
said Alesso.  He added that he stopped his pickup truck
and flashed his headlights at the lights.  'The lights
began to shine even brighter and seemed to descend, which
is why I went over to where Raul (Blengio) was planting
and told him to look.  The lights were white, round, and
gave off a sort of haze,' adding that 'behind the light
there was another, less shiny one.'"
       "Raul Blengio stated that the lights moved slowly.
'They weren't stars--they were strange moving lights,'
explained Alesso, while adding that a third witness
accompanying them also saw the lights.  'I'm certain they
have something to do with the cattle mutilations,' he
added."
       Carolina Montenegro, a college student majoring in
business administration, "spoke of having a similar
experience: 'On Friday night (June 21, 2002), I was in the
countryside and, to my surprise, I saw a small light,
orange in color and smaller than a star, and at the height
(altitude) of said light there were no other stars to be
seen.  As I watched, the light changed color from orange
to red, then to green and then back to orange until, after
five minutes, it became smaller and vanished.'"
       And up north in Santiago del Estero, "Residents of
barrio Santa Rosa de Lima (neighborhood) in the city's
northern end contacted (the Argentinian newspaper) El
Liberal yesterday (Saturday, June 22, 2002) to report they
have been witnessing for the past several nights--in
connection with the (UFO) sightings at Fernandez and Ojo
de Agua--objects with strange lights in the direction of
La Venacha, to the northeast of Santiago del Estero."
       "The wave of rumors and UFO sightings are directly
related to the appearance of mutilated animals and there
are already specialists who point to the presence of
'extraterrestrials' as the parties responsible for these
acts."
       "Jose Villalva, owner of a local supermarket, stated
that his customers are commenting on the presence of these
lights in the sky while doing their grocery shopping,
while stating that he himself has not seen them."
       A UFO "appeared in the sky of Fernandez Robles
between (Tuesday) June 11 and (Friday) June 14 (2002) at
different nocturnal hours," followed by "a new sighting
last Thursday (June 20, 2002) around 9 p.m.  Numerous
residents of the following neighborhoods--El Norte, 12 de
Octubre, Juan Domingo Peron, Camping, Roca and 102
Viviendas--claim having seen the luminous object."
       "On said occasion, Marcelo Coronel, a professional
mechanic living on the Calle Balcarse (street) in barrio
El Norte, witnessed, along with the light of the moon and
stars, something similar to 'a headlight surrounded by a
red border, which increased and diminished in hue, and
moved slowly from the north to the south without making
any sound.'"
       "Coronel adds that since he was on his way to the
Sportivo Club, he followed 'the UFO' in his car 'along the
old Route 34.'  Once he reached the stadium, he continued
to watch the object along with the Gallardo family 'for
over 20 minutes until it became lost behind the
treeline.'"
       Finally, "two girls were hospitalized in Santiago del
Estero" as a result of "their sighting of 'multicolored
lights' which were also reported by several other
residents of the province."
       "Young Gabriela, 7, and Miriam del Valle Salto, 13,
will remain under observation at the La Banda Children's
Hospital" in Santiago del Estero "after the curious
sighting."  (See the Argentinian newspapers La Nueva
Provincia of Bahia Blanca for June 27, 2002, "Lights over
Carhue," and El Liberal of Santiago del Estero for June
27, 2002, "UFOs and mutilations at Santiago del Estero."
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para esos
articulos de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  As if there wasn't enough going on in
Argentina, look who's back in action on the other side of
the Andes.  Awwwww--you guessed!)


CHUPACABRA CAVORTS ON A
ROOFTOP IN CALAMA, CHILE

       Chupacabra made his official reappearance last week
in Calama, a small city in northern Chile that has been
plagued with sightings of the weird creature for the past
two-and-a-half years.
       "The phenomenon took place in Manuel Rodriguez, a
housing complex on the Calle San Antonio" in Calama.
       Eyewitness Maria Gavia, an employee of a local
daycare center, reported, "It was not a man.  It did not
look like a person.  It resembled an ape and it jumped all
over the roof.  It passed right in front of my window and
then it came back, making all kinds of noise."
       "I didn't want to turn on the light, because I was
very afraid and my window doesn't have screens.  I was
afraid that the animal would break in.  I cannot explain
exactly what happened, all I know is, I was very scared."
       "It was after midnight.  Suddenly, I heard loud
noises coming from the roof.  That creature went by my
window.  It jumped a lot.  It made very long jumps, unlike
the way a person jumps.  Suddenly, I saw my father coming
out of the door on the first floor, and the creature
jumped.  It jumped so far that it landed on top of the
neighbor's house.  No person can jump so far without first
running and gaining momentum.  Then it finally left."
       "I was able to listen to the neighbors yelling,
'There it is!  There it is!'  It (the creature) finally
ended up across the street.  I know this because the dogs
across the street began barking and howling.  Moments
later, there was nothing but silence."
       "I had never seen anything like that, as if it was a
monkey that jumped on two legs and sometimes three.  It
was about 1.5 meters (5 feet) tall, perhaps even more, but
it was stocky.  It made a lot of noise.  I could not sleep
during the entire night."  (See the Chilean newspaper El
Mercurio de Calama for June 23, 2002.  Muchas gracias a
Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo y Jaime Ferrer del Centro UFO
de Calama para eso articulo de diario.)


THIRD UFO APPEARS OVER
VIENNA'S HIETZING DISTRICT

       On Thursday, June 20, 2002, at 10:30 p.m., Robin V.
was enjoying an evening breeze on her balcony in the
Hietzing district of Vienna, the capital of Austria, when
she "saw a strange light approaching from the northeast."
       "I was sitting on a balcony of my house in Vienna,"
Robin  reported, "A small star barely visible flew slowly
overhead.  Suddenly, it stopped.  Then it became greater
(brighter).  It grew to the size of the sun and was
increasingly a bright bluish-white."
       "Then sharply-defined rays shot out from it, and the
light surrounded me totally for several seconds.  There
was no pain or anything other than I just had a great
feeling of joy and wellness."
       "It (the light beam) ceased immediately, and the
thing (UFO) just continued to the east.  It returned again
after some minutes.  Then it continued to the north
without showing any further phenomena."  (Email Form
Report)
(Editor's Comment:  Okay, that's the third UFO sighting in
Hietzing this year.  Last time I was only joking when I
asked if there might be "an underground UFO parking
garage" under Hietzing.  Not any more.  To paraphrase a
homicide detective of my acquaintance, "That's too many
coincidences for one afternoon.  What's the big attraction
in Hietzing?")


THREE ORANGE UFOs SEEN
IN ADELAIDE, S.A.

       On Saturday, June 29, 2002, at 8 p.m., Mrs. R.V.
received a telephone call from an excited friend, urging
her to go outside and look at the night sky above
Adelaide, the capital of South Australia state.
       "It was a clear, bright, moonlit night," R.V.
reported, "I did not see them approach.  They were already
there when I got a phone call to go out and look.  Three
bright orange lights lined up across the sky, the first
slightly higher, the last slightly lower than the other
(middle) but only marginally."
       "When I saw them, they were spread out like that, but
the person who phoned me said that they were in a > shape
when she first saw them and then moved into that (linear)
position.  They seemed to be moving slowly towards the
west, but so slowly that it was hard to tell.  They were
very evenly spaced across the sky and faded in intensity
once or twice while I was watching them."
       "They were bright orange, there were three of them,
and from where I stood, they were three-eighths of an inch
apart.  The light across the bottom seemed brighter than
that at the top.  They appeared cylindrical and may have
had a domed top."
       "Then, minutes later, I went to phone to new status and they were gone
when I got back outside."  (Email Form Report)


READER FEEDBACK:

FATIMA REVISITED

       Concerning the Francisco Marto mini-biography,
Portuguese author Joaquim Fernandes writes, "The Francisco
evocation is pious enough with the same exaggerated
patterns of the foreign writers, who didn't have full
access--as we did-- to the sanctuary official archives."
(See UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 24 for June 11, 2002,
"1908: Unforgettable Francisco Marto," page 7.)
       "Their books are confessional and not accurate, based
on biased reports and translations: the Ourem
administrator's participation is yet rectified, and he is
NOT anymore the bad guy."
       "Our three research books based on first-hand data
are critical and offer a new path to a better look at the
Fatima affair." (Editor's Note:  Joaquim Fernandes and
Fina d'Armada wrote Fatima--Nos Bastidores do Segredo,
Ancola Editora, Lisboa, 2002.)


  From the UFO Files...

1975: BLACK HELICOPTERS
            ON THE ATTACK

       The current cattle mutilation wave in Argentina and
Uruguay had its counterpart twenty-seven years ago, back
in 1975, when a wave of mutilations swept from Texas to
Colorado.  This "flap" was also remarkable in that it was
the first widespread appearance of the black helicopters.
       In his 1994 book, Black Helicopters Over America,
Texas-born author Jim Keith offered a chronology of
mutilation events involving black helicopters that took
place between January and October of 1975.
       "On January 22nd (1975) began a remarkable 'flap' of
unmarked helicopters (often equipped with bright
spotlights--J.K.) in Texas which would last for three
months.  The flap began when an unmarked chopper (USA
slang for helicopter--J.T.) was observed, circling an area
where a possibly-mutilated cow had been found an hour
earlier."
       "In February (1975), in Wood County, Texas, Mrs. A.D.
Cruse heard a loud helicopter circling her house.  A
mutilated cow was found on the property the following
morning."
       "Also in February (1975), numerous unidentified
choppers were seen in Smith, Gregg, Bosque, Coryell,
Hamilton, Camp, Kaufman and Hopkins Counties in Texas."
       "February 25th (1975), in Bexar County, Texas,
Stanley Jasic spotted a silver helicopter flying at a
distance of a quarter-mile (0.4 kilometers) away.  A dead,
mutilated cow was later found in the area.  That same
night, there were three sightings of unidentified choppers
in Kaufman County, Texas."
       In his book, The Choppers...and the Choppers, Thomas
R. Adams tracked "mystery helicopters and cattle
mutilations" and "informs us that 'The reports of low-
flying helicopters spotlighting cattle ended (apparently--
J.K.) in May (in Texas--J.K.)."
       However, "during April, May, June and July of 1975,
unmarked mystery choppers were sighted in Marshall County,
Kansas and in at least three instances in Alamosa County,
Colorado.  Now that the Texas flap had ended, mystery
helicopter sightings suddenly went wild in Colorado in May
1975."
(Editor's Note:  Alamosa County was also the site in 1967
of the first puzzling horse mutilation in the USA.  The
mare's name was Lady, but the event became widely known as
"the Snippy case.")
       "On the 29th of May (1975), in Elbert County,
Colorado, a sighting of an unmarked chopper was also
linked to a cattle mutilation."
       "Three girls on horseback were also chased by a
helicopter on July 17th (1975) in El Paso County,
Colorado, with a large number of chopper sightings taking
place at the same time.  Editor-publisher John Hines took
a photo of a mystery chopper the same night as the
horseback chase.  This area was to be the center of a
great deal of cattle mutilation activity during the year
1975."
       "On July 23rd (1975) in Elbert County, Colorado,
Undersheriff Bill Waugh observed a silent helicopter
through his binoculars.  The same night, a search was
undertaken by the police for a mystery chopper which
appeared and reappeared in Teller County (Colorado).
Within recent weeks of these events, there had been 40
incidents of cattle mutilation in Teller County."
       "August of 1975 was also the beginning of a 'Montana
flap' and, by May of 1976, there were at least 130 reports
of helicopters and unidentified craft which had been
observed in that state."
       "In September of 1975, there were over 40 sightings
of unmarked choppers in Colorado, the incidents often
occurring in areas where cattle mutilations were taking
place."
       "In early September of 1975, a family in Rio Grande
County, Colorado observed a helicopter with something
which looked like a 'litter basket' hanging underneath it.
The following day, a mutilated bull was found nearby where
the sighting had taken place, suggesting that the 'litter
basket' arrangement may have had something to do with the
lifting or transporting of cattle."
       "October 1975 saw a continuance of the Colorado flap,
with a minimum of 30 sightings being reported in the
state."
       "On the 3rd of October (1975) in Weston County,
Wyoming, Raymond 'Spud' Jones and some of his neighbors
woke up hearing a 'high-pitched whine, like a jet turbine
starting.'  On October 6th (1975), Jones found the
mutilated carcass of one of his cows in a nearby pasture."
       During the same period, "in Washington County,
Colorado, ranchers were reporting numerous mystery
choppers and their connections to cattle mutilations.  A
rancher's daughter, at home by herself, observed a chopper
flying over a field approximately 100 yards (90 meters)
from her home.  She described the sound of the chopper as
'muffled.'  A dead cow was later found on the ranch."
       The main difference between the USA's cattle
mutilation flap of 1975 and today's flap in Argentina and
Uruguay has been the absence of black helicopter sightings
in those two South American nations.  (See the books Black
Helicopters Over America by Jim Keith, IllumiNet Press,
Lilburn, Ga., 1994, pages 20, 21, 24, 25, 26 and 27, and
The Choppers...and the Choppers by Thomas R. Adams,
Project Sigma, Paris, Tex., 1978, pages 6 through 21.)


       That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

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or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   Jul > Jul 3

              Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:59:30 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 05:36:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:17 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:20:19 -0400
 >>Subject: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >>Dear Readers:

 >>The world is clearly a far more dangerous place than we'd
 >>thought. When one-fanged dogs aren't drawing the blood of
 >>thousands of animals around the world, small red-muzzled mice
 >>are feasting on beef cattle. This is a news item concerning the
 >>"final report" by SENASA.

 >============================

 >>SOURCE: EFE News Service
 >>DATE: July 1, 2002

 >>Final report made known today
 >>AUTHORITIES EXPLAIN ARGENTINEAN CATTLE DEATHS
 >>www.terra.cl

 >>Small carnivorous mouse known as "red muzzle" (hocicudo rojizo)
 >>was responsible for mysterious mutilations. (EFE)

 >I wonder if one of those mice is named Mickey?


Good one Dr. Mac! <ROTFLMFHO>

<snip>

Surely this theory is easy to test? Just lock a cow up with a
roomful of the hungry mice.

One would assume they would have done this already?

Where's the video evidence of these picky carnivorous rodents in
action?

I have read that in some of these mutilations, laser-like
incisions have gone _around_individual_ cells! Damn clever mice!

When will we see some serious Government research of this
phenomena?








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   Jul > Jul 3

                      Spanish UFO Book Again Available

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:04:01 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 05:45:54 -0400
Subject: Spanish UFO Book Again Available


The UFO book 'Expedientes Insolitos' - 'Anomalous Files' - by
Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos, published 1995 by Temas de Hoy
publisher (Madrid) is again available in limited supply.

Those interested can purchase copies by mailing a cheque for 25
euros [in Europe] or 30 US dollars [for the rest of the world] -
to 'Book', Apartado de Correos 12140, 46080 Valencia, Spain.

Please indicate clearly the name and address where the book is
to be mailed.








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   Jul > Jul 3

                        Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:18:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:18:57 -0400
Subject: Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02


June 2002's Top Twenty 'Reads' at The UFO UpDates Archive

This list was produced by Analog 5.22 website log analyser -
the [numbers] represent reads


  1 Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
    Michael J. Woods  - [577]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m01-027.shtml

  2 After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On
    ebk - [553]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m16-016.shtml

  3 Roswell Rods On NBC Show
    Stig Agermose - [449]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/aug/m16-001.shtml

  4 'Bad Astronomy': Very Bad Indeed?
    Chris Rutkowski - [431]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/apr/m05-017.shtml

  5 The Amazing Kreskin
    Dave Bowden - [424]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/apr/m29-007.shtml

  6 The Kokomo Hum
    ebk - [318]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m14-016.shtml

  7 Bob Lazar - True or False?
    Glenn Campbell - [305]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m22-012.shtml

  8 Of Flying Wings & Hover Cars
    ebk [286]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m03-008.shtml

  9 Of Sociopaths & Conspiracy
    Alfred Lehmberg - 273
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/feb/m07-003.shtml

10 Connors Open Response To Phil Klass
    Wendy Connors - [258]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m06-037.shtml

11 Kurtz: A Vigorous Skeptic Of Everything But Fact
    Mike Briggs - [229]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m19-001.shtml

12 Astronomer Royal - Aliens Floating In Space?
    Stig Agermose - [220]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m01-005.shtml

13 Silver Orb Washes Up On S.C. Coast
    Elaine Tasin - [219]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m14-007.shtml

14 The Moth Man Cometh
    Loren Coleman - [214]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m22-020.shtml

15 Roswell: Final Declassification
    Loren Coleman - [213]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m10-027.shtml

16 Death of Ufology
    Wendy Connors - [205]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m02-006.shtml

17 Roswell Alien Autopsy Tent Footage Faked
    Robert Gates - [205]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m10-007.shtml

18 Last Night's Tragedy
    Kevin Randle - [203]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m14-009.shtml

19 ABCNEWS On Floating Orb (+ Video)
    Stig Agermose - [203]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m18-008.shtml

20 The Roswell Embarrassment
    Tom Carey - [202]
    http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m15-012.shtml


--ebk








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   Jul > Jul 3

                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:13:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:38:53 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >Ok, hi everyone,

 >This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
 >student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
 >(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
 >is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

Welcome to the List, Cathy.

 >>What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong about being
 >>skeptical? Why are people labeled "Skeptics" on this list and
 >>other lists as if they have some type of horrible disease?

 >Well, I guess this is what happens when a word becomes hijacked
 >by a particular group of people to mean something other than
 >what it was originally supposed to mean.

True. There is a lot of that in the UFO field as well as other fields.

 >I don't believe there's wrong with skepticism, if by skepticism
 >you mean a strong sense of discernment, which I assume is what
 >you mean.

Your assumption is correct, Cathy. I meant a strong sense of
discernment. I advocate objectivity in research, especially when
it comes to the study of phenomena.

<snip>

 >I would like to say it was an exception but sadly, I don't
 >really believe it is, if the stuff I occasionally see from
 >CSICOP and the Skeptics' Society is anything to go on.

 >BTW, I wouldn't want to get into a long Phil Sci discussion
 >here, but I think the days of total skepticism went out with
 >Logical Positivism. Outright skepticism leads inevitably to
 >solipsism. Sooner or later everyone ends up having to compromise
 >their skepticism over something or other, whether they admit it
 >or not.

I tend to view the range of human belief/disbelief systems as
lying along a continuum with belief on one end and disbelief on
the other (the extremes being fanaticism and debunkery
respectively). Ideally skepticism would be somewhere near the
middle of the continuum - with some element of curiosity
tempered with healthy doubt.

However, as you pointed out, the term 'skeptic' has come to mean
different things to different groups of people. To many in the
UFO community being skeptical means to disbelieve because so
many who claim to be skeptics behave more like debunkers than
skeptics.

And as you indicated, everyone ends up compromising their
skepticism over something or other. But human belief systems do
not remain static (IMHO). It is a fluid system that moves back
and forth along the continuum to a greater or lessor degree
depending upon the individual and what he or she perceives.

But my comments were not really intended to launch a
philosophical discussion about total skepticism, relative
skepticism, etc. I was just indicating that it's OK to be
skeptical and doesn't mean one is necessarily a debunker. In
fact, I don't think anyone will find the truths they seek if
they focus too much in any direction from belief to disbelief.
And what we believe or debunk may make the truth harder to
swallow once we find it - especially if we don't like what we
find.

A. Hebert

"We are never deceived; we deceive ourselves." - Goethe








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   Jul > Jul 3

             Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found "Unconvincing"

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:23:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:41:29 -0400
Subject: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found "Unconvincing"


SOURCE: La Voz del Interior (Cordoba, Argentina)
DATE: Wednesday, July 3, 2002

SENASA Explanation Found Unconvincing in R=EDo Cuarto

R=EDo Cuarto. Researchers at the Universidad Nacional De Rio
Cuarto reiterated yesterday that the calf found mutilated
yesterday in Berrotar=E1n presented "clean incisions" in its hide,
thus discarding any attacks by predators.

They admitted in this case that "in principle, the conclusions
applied by SENASA cannot be applied," referring to the
University of Tandil's report which fingered the red-muzzled
mouse (oxymycterus rufus) as the principal culprit in the cattle
mutilations.

Jaime Polop, a specialist in Rodent Ecology with the National
University of Rio Cuarto, stated that the presence of this type
of mouse is "minimal" in the southern provinces and expressed
doubts regarding the possibility that this animal is the key to
unlocking the natiowide mystery.

Polop is an associate professor of Natural Sciences in the
School of Mathematics, has 22 years experience as a tenured
researcher at UNRC ahd has spent over 24 years studying rodents.
He declared that while the red-muzzle mouse is omnivorous and
feeds on vegetable and animal organic matter, it is "very rare"
that it should consume carrion. "The information from the Univ.
of Tandil is the first we've received regarding this type of
behavior by oxymycterus. There is no scientific background
information in this regard," he said with caution.

Without wanting to dispute SENASA's report, Polop limited
himself to saying that in the globality of cases registered in
the country there could be different cases for the mutilations.
Polop did address, however, the subject of the sheer number of
rodents which would have been needed to produce the lesions
found on the cows and rejected the possibility that these mice
could produce clean incisions in the hides of other animals to
feed on them. "The oxymycterus has chisel-shaped teeth, and it
is impossible for that type of dentition to produce clean cuts
on animal hides. It's bite is similar to any mouse chewing
through would, which would never be mistaken for a surgical
implement," he defined.

He also noted that the muzzled mouse "is not a predator":
"Normally, when a predator such as a fox begins [by eating] the
entrails, it continues to feed from the same open wound. To find
lesions on the mouth, abdomen, and anus, and to see this pattern
repeating itself, draws my attention considerably," added Polop.

Meanwhile, another mutilated bovine, missing eyes and genitals -
characteristics similar to other finds in other provinces - was
discovered late yesterday in the town of San Pedro, Department
of Santa Rosa, 150 km from the provincial seat.

The National Health and Agroalimentary Service (SENASA)
confirmed that "a Commission is working in the area to determine
the discovery of  a mutilated bovine animal."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi








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                  Hypothesis Generates Doubts In Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:35:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:42:57 -0400
Subject: Hypothesis Generates Doubts In Argentina



Source: La Voz del Interior (Cordoba, Argentina)
Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2002

HYPOTHESIS GENERATES MANY DOUBTS

It's hard for me to believe in such an attack by rodents on dead
cows," says Jaime Polop. The UNRC rodent specialist reports that
the red-muzzled rodents ingest barely 10 to 12 grams of
nourishment and that in order to consume the mutilated cow
tissue, it would have been necessary to have hundreds of mice
acting in concert.

Polop states that the did not have the opportunity to see the
mutilated animals and that it is impossible for him to draw
conclusions from scant existing data, but he has his doubts.

The oxymycterus  are habitually found in very low numbers among
regional rodent populations, which is why it is hard to imagine
a massive attack on deceased cows. This mouse species is often
found near water courses and I understand that this is not the
case where the Berrot=E1n animal was found." He found it difficult
to believe that such a drastic nutritional change could have
affected the red-muzzled mouse and adds that if these are indeed
the culprits, their fecal matter should be found on the
mutilated calf and in its surroundings.

Moreover, the Vice-Chancellor of the School of Agronomy and
Veterinary Medicine of the UNRC, Anibal Bessone, pointed out
that new histopathological studies will be available before this
weekend regarding the animal found at Berrotar=E1n. "No clean
incisions are found at Tandil, only ripped or torn ones, and
they have proven the rodent's presence in at least 3 or 4 out of
30 [mutilated animal] cases. We will consult them and keep
investigating. We would like to have more cases to furnish a
general conclusion," he underlined.

Aside from the tenured faculty of the National University of Rio
Cuarto, there were also some professors at the National
University of Cordoba who expressed their doubts as to the
possible involvement of these mice on dead cows. However, they
refrained from taking an official stand on the subject.

The clean incisions on this animal found in Berrotaran are the
main cause of the controversy.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi







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                    Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:25:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:44:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Randle


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 01:07:08 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:46:25 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

 >>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:21:48 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

 >>>>From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Breakout Of The Fictions
 >>>>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:12:24 +0100

 >>>>Breakout Of The Fictions

 >><snip>

 >>Many claimed that the security marking TOP SECRET RESTRICTED was
 >>absolutely wrong. Sorry, the GAO found a number of examples of
 >>this in still classified documents. CSICOP's Senior Research
 >>Fellow Joe Nickell claimed that the date format 18 November,
 >>1952, was wrong because it violated the government style manual
 >>(the comma after November). I have located many documents,
 >>definitely genuine, that have the same date format (2 by MJ -12
 >>members Smith and Hillenkoetter) and many others.

 >All the people who raise the comma, Top Secret Control numbers
 >and classification markings have never been to the archives and
 >reviewed thousands of pages of formerly highly classified
 >documents. Stan has. I was fortunate to have been as well. You
 >find a hodge podge of documents, formats, classification
 >markings and so forth, even though the official government
 >manuals or whatever say that they have to be done in a certain
 >way.


Robert, List, All -

I think I'll object to the use of the word all here. I believe
that the comma issue is important and I have been to lots of
archives, presidential libraries, and even the Museum of New
Mexico in my search of answers. I believe (and please note that
word) that the use of the comma in a document allegedly created
at that level suggests (again note that word) that the document
might be fraudulent. It does not mean it is, but that here is a
mistake made in a document to be given to the president-elect,
and I have seen whole pages retyped in documents going to
generals so that there would be no sloppy "white out" on them,
let alone erasures.

While these sorts of mistakes argue against authenticity, one of
the major problems is the lack of provenance for these MJ-12
documents, the source of which is Bill Moore. We can trace them
no farther. Until that question is resolved, not to mention all
the bogus MJ-12 documents that have surfaced in the last twenty
years, there is a real problem here.


KRandle









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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:36:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:57:22 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hall


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >Ok, hi everyone,

 >This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
 >student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
 >(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
 >is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

 >>What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong about being
 >>skeptical? Why are people labeled "Skeptics" on this list and
 >>other lists as if they have some type of horrible disease?

 >Well, I guess this is what happens when a word becomes hijacked
 >by a particular group of people to mean something other than
 >what it was originally supposed to mean.

 >I don't believe there's wrong with skepticism, if by skepticism
 >you mean a strong sense of discernment, which I assume is what
 >you mean.  On the other hand though, not everyone who claims to
 >be a skeptic is necessarily a skeptic -- in the same way that
 >just because someone claims to be an honest purveyor of used
 >automobiles doesn't necessarily mean that's what they are.

 >In particular, I don't think there's anything particularly
 >skeptical or discerning about the misrepresentation or selective
 >representation of evidence, or about dishonest reporting of
 >facts, or about the sloppy and inaccurate application of
 >scientific principles.

 >A little while ago I came upon a book in my university's library
 >called 'The UFO Verdict', which was written by someone who I
 >remember described himself at the time as a skeptic (I don't
 >know if he's still in business).

<snip>

Cathy,

Welcome and amen! My background is in philosophy of science, so
I appreciate what you are saying. Amy no doubt is a "true
skeptic," which is fine, but you have pointed out to her very
well the distinctions that need to be made. The book you cite
was written by Robert Schaffer, with whom I have had a few
confrontations over the years. I have never encountered a more
made-up (i.e., closed) mind.

  - Dick









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                Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:55:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:00:46 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Maccabee


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List


 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
 >student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
 >(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
 >is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

<snip>

 >In particular, I don't think there's anything particularly
 >skeptical or discerning about the misrepresentation or selective
 >representation of evidence, or about dishonest reporting of
 >facts, or about the sloppy and inaccurate application of
 >scientific principles.

 >A little while ago I came upon a book in my university's library
 >called 'The UFO Verdict', which was written by someone who I
 >remember described himself at the time as a skeptic (I don't
 >know if he's still in business).

Wow! A Blast from the Past for me.... because the author of that
book is Robert Sheaffer, with whom I spent several enjoyable
evenings of amateur astronomy and numerous hours of
argumentation over UFO sightings (McMinnville and New Zealand
being the most noted). The book was publishewd in the early
'80's. Robert is still around. Check www.debunker.com. (nothing
like being straighforward about it!)

 >What I remember about the book is that in order to get at the
 >ten percent (or thereabouts) of actual content, one first had to
 >deconstruct about ninety percent of spin, attribution and
 >general hand-waving argument about the supposed unreliability of
 >the human visual system.

 >I find that sort of thing particularly irritating, because the
 >alleged systematic unreliability of human visual perception is
 >one of those academic folk-mythologies, which has been around
 >since the dawn of academic psychology without ever having had
 >any real scientific evidence to back it up. The human visual
 >system is subject to inaccuracies, just like any other
 >instrument, but if one has some understanding of how the system
 >works, it's relatively easy to predict the types of errors that
 >can occur.

 >Now I don't know if it was outright dishonesty or simply shoddy
 >scholarship, but either way its irresponsible in the extreme and
 >people who do this have no business representing themselves as
 >skeptics, in my opinion. I do not know how anyone reading that
 >book would have been able to puzzle their way through all the BS
 >unless they already had some fairly detailed knowledge of the
 >human visual system.

 >I would like to say it was an exception but sadly, I don't
 >really believe it is, if the stuff I occasionally see from
 >CSICOP and the Skeptics' Society is anything to go on.

Would you say his arguments lack... um... reason?:)

I appreciate your comment here that the capabilities and
limitations of the human visual system are to some extent
quantifiable and hence can be compensated for when analyzing a
sighting.

This became very important in my analysis of the Rogue River
sightings of May 24, 1949 reported on my web page:

http://brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver.html

The description of the object shape is very explicit so the
question is, can eyballs be that accurate (especially when
binoculars are used). At the end of that discussion I have added
some quantifiable data about humen eye resolution as determined
by army experiments years ago.

As for your impression of Sheaffer's book... I can only smile. :)









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              Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:55:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:03:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:59:30 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:17 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:20:19 -0400
 >>>Subject: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >>>Dear Readers:

 >>>The world is clearly a far more dangerous place than we'd
 >>>thought. When one-fanged dogs aren't drawing the blood of
 >>>thousands of animals around the world, small red-muzzled mice
 >>>are feasting on beef cattle. This is a news item concerning the
 >>>"final report" by SENASA.

 >============================

 >>>Small carnivorous mouse known as "red muzzle" (hocicudo rojizo)
 >>>was responsible for mysterious mutilations. (EFE)

 >>I wonder if one of those mice is named Mickey?


 >Good one Dr. Mac! <ROTFLMFHO>

<snip>

 >Surely this theory is easy to test? Just lock a cow up with a
 >roomful of the hungry mice.

 >One would assume they would have done this already?

Dangerous assumption. When offering debunking explanations don't
test the explanation. You might find it wrong! (Rule #1 for
debunkers: any explanation is better than none!!)

 >Where's the video evidence of these picky carnivorous rodents in
 >action?

 >I have read that in some of these mutilations, laser-like
 >incisions have gone _around_individual_ cells! Damn clever mice!

 >When will we see some serious Government research of this
 >phenomena?

Odor!

Where is the odor?

I haven't seen one mention of whether or not the dead animals
small to high heaven! No odor because of cold weather (fall and
winter in South America)?

Reports say other animals stay away. Assuming an army of rats
isn't keeping the larger predators away, what is? A lack of
normal odor?








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                 Re: Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:58:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:05:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02 - Maccabee


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Archive Top 20 'Reads' 06-02

 >June 2002's Top Twenty 'Reads' at The UFO UpDates Archive


 >  1 Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
 >    Michael J. Woods  - [577]
 >   http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m01-027.shtml

 >  2 After 50 Years The Cover-Up Conspiracy Goes On
 >   ebk - [553]
 >   http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m16-016.shtml

Countdown to the 'lid slamming on'. 27 days to go to the 50th
anniversary of the press conference by General John A. Samford
when he lied to the American people (but not to the FBI!) and
said it was all natural phenomena.

See:

http://brumac.8k.com/1952yearofufo/1952yearofufo.html








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                            Reqest For Assistance

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:07:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:09:55 -0400
Subject: Reqest For Assistance


Hi Folks,

I'm looking for an issue of Contaco Ovni magazine that was
published sometime in October 2001.  The issue was about the
Jonathan Reed UFO hoax and was full color.  If anyone out there
can get a copy, please privately e-mail me, I would greatly
appreciate it.

Thanks!

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
ufowatchdog@earthlink.net






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                          Human Logic/Alien Agenda

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:00:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:09:51 -0400
Subject: Human Logic/Alien Agenda


Hello All,

Some observations; time and time again I've noticed people
trying to explain the "alien agenda" with human logic. That is
people continue to theorize and make assumptions of the motives
and actions of "our visitors" based on "human scientific
principles."

One example of this is how we interpret our visitor's "method of
travel" based on what "we" know about time and space. Some folks
have stated, "it's impossible for ET to be here because it would
take to long for them to get here, from what "we believe" to be
the closest possible "inhabited star system." To be polite, I
don't think I have to point how "unaware" that position held by
some, is.

Webster's defines "logic" as: "a science that deals with the
principles and criteria of validity of inference and
demonstration : the science of the formal principles of
reasoning." Using "human logic" where it actually applies, i.e.,
what we've learned about "our own civilization" and our
environment, that is our own planet and the solar system it's
in, we've theorized that are there is an abundance of earth like
planets that could support "earth-like" life. If we assume that
is true then we can further postulate that said life would be in
various stages of technological advancement. Looking at our own
advancement, just in the last hundred years, a speck of time in
the "Universal picture," we've gone from "horse drawn carriages"
to landing a space craft on an asteroid passing close by. Using
our "own progress" as a guide, it would be safe to say that
there would be many "alien civilizations" that are well beyond
us in terms of technological advancement.

Having said all that, although it is completely natural to try
to explain away phenomena that borders on the edge of our
understanding, it is "illogical" to propose a "plausible
theory," concerning the motives and actions of our "visitors"
based on the "thimble  full of data" we have about space, time
and life in the universe!


Regards,

Frank Warren

P.S. Looking forward to listening to the live broadcast of
Stanton Friedman and Dennis Balthaser "live from the Roswell UFO
Museum" at 7pm Friday (central time) on www.jerrypippin.com










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             Re: P47 - Arnold as a 'Boise Boys' Hoax - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:38:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:21:47 -0400
Subject: Re: P47 - Arnold as a 'Boise Boys' Hoax - McGonagle


This is a follow-up to an ancient posting from Edoardo Russo,
posted on Sun, 27 Apr 1997!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m27-043.shtml


 >From: Edoardo Russo <erusso@TORINO.ALPCOM.IT>
 >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 >Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:16:37 +0001
 >Subject: Arnold as a "Boise Boys'" Hoax

It relates to a story published in FSR vol. 15 no. 4, July-
August 1969, pp. 22-25, amongst other sources, that Sir Victor
Goddard exposed a hoax to General Spaatz, which resulted in
Spaatz calling off a 'UFO Hunt'.

In his post, Eduardo wrote:

 >13 years have passed since then, but I'm afraid U.S. colleagues
 >were never even aware of its existence. And I might add that some
 >UK ufologist might also try and verify the British side of the
 >story, if yet possible.

I can now add that in a personal letter to Sir Bernard Lovell
dated 12th August, 1967, he wrote:

"I gave General Spaatz reason to believe that the genesis of the
scare was an elaborate practical joke organised from Boise.
Spaatz probably called the whole thing off, no reason given
except to the President."

Unfortunately, the archivists at the Jodrell Bank archive would
not allow me to take copies of the letter, and my mini-disc
recorder had a few problems at the time so I don't have the full
text of the letter. It is held in the JBA at the John Rylands
University Library in Manchester, under file reference CS7/26/3.

Of course, this doesn't prove that the incident occurred exactly
as described by SVG, but it does add to the collection of
references.

I hope this is of interest to some List members,


Regards,

Joe McGonagle









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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:19:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:24:27 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100

 >This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
 >student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
 >(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
 >is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

<snip>

 >the alleged systematic unreliability of human visual perception is
 >one of those academic folk-mythologies, which has been around
 >since the dawn of academic psychology without ever having had
 >any real scientific evidence to back it up. The human visual
 >system is subject to inaccuracies, just like any other
 >instrument, but if one has some understanding of how the system
 >works, it's relatively easy to predict the types of errors that
 >can occur.

Hi, Cathy, Welcome:

Your expertise may help with a discussion that has appeared on
occasion on this, and related Lists: Autokinetic Motion of the
muscles of the eye. This is a phenomenon which is uncannily
similar to the famous "falling leaf effect" noted for many since
nighttime UFOs.

It seems that this phenomenon is particularly susceptible to
suggestion. In other words, when it is mentioned while viewing
an appropriate stimulus, bright star or planet, small light in a
darkened planetarium, most people have no trouble seeing it. In
25 years of teaching an adult observational astronomy course, I
have never had a group which couldn't see it.

On the other hand, there seems to be a curious lack of ability
to notice this happening, even after careful prompting, among
some subscribers to this list.

Have any thoughts or info?

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:27:09 -0400
Subject: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report


Hello All,

The response to the International Petition to the UN is turning
out to be a monument to apathy. After four months (one third of
the time allotted for gathering signatures) only 1141 have
signed the petition to date. At that rate, it looks like a
petition consisting of 3400 signatures (if current trends
continue) will be the end result.

If something as simple and universal as the appeal that this
petition represents cannot be supported in large (significant)
numbers, then disclosure of UFO info by _any_ government will
remain illusive and an impossible mission.

The amount of effort required to read and sign (if you agree
with its contents) the petition is minimal. The whole process
takes all of three or four minutes once you are inside the
petition website.

According to the most current statistics, the petition site was
visited (hit) a total of 4629 times in the last four weeks.
Instead of the petition signature count reflecting the number of
hits, it shows that only a small percentage of those that
visit/read the petition are taking the time to sign it. I can't
imagine that the petition itself, or how it is worded can
explain the poor response rate. I also can't imagine that
'paranoia' over putting your name on _any_ list can fully
explain the lack of response either.

The Simple Truth:

The petition represents a 'golden' and completely democratic
opportunity for people to make their voices heard, and have
their wishes acknowledged, (concerning the UFO question) by all
the governments that are represented at the United Nations.

This is a direct appeal to all governments to give full
disclosure to *any information pertaining to UFOs. (*With the
proviso's stated clearly in the petition itself.) Five nations
have already done so. We only seek to _increase_ that number by
as many as we can secure via public request/demand/pressure.

It appears that not only doesn't anyone care, but few are
willing to make any effort at all to help insure/secure the
petition's success. This petition belongs to _all_ of us. Its
plain and easy to understand language expresses the needs and
wishes for information and (possible) clarification of this UFO
business for all - skeptics, agnostics and believers alike.

Get on the stick people! Opportunities like this don't present
themselves very often if ever. This particular disclosure effort
is not a part of promoting any individuals, it is not a three
ring circus, nor is it frivolous or ill-conceived. This effort
(if successful) could result in the addition of several
countries to the list of those who have already disclosed UFO
related information and who have established an open information
exchange with interested individuals, groups and organizations.

Read and sign the petition.

Tell everybody you know about it.

If you have a website, add a banner-link to the petition page
(e-mail me and I will supply the banner graphic and URL) so that
visitors to your site will learn about its existence.

If _you_ don't take some responsibility for making this a
successful campaign... it will _not_ succeed in accomplishing
anything. Other than maybe standing as a living monument to
apathy.

Regards,

John Velez, Petition coordinator

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations for
disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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                    Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr.

From: James Mortellaro Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:21:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:30:37 -0400
Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr.


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 01:38:16 EDT
 >Subject: News Of Jim, Sr.

 >Dear List and Errol,

 >Dad is going to Lenox Hill Hospital on Monday for a cardiac
 >workup. You good thoughts and prayers are wellcome. At nearly
 >90, he has some potientially serious heart issues to evaluate
 >for treatment. We hope it will be minimal and we get him home
 >real quick.

 >However, no matter his condition, not only will this List have
 >to up with Morty put, but with Morty Sr. too. And he will have
 >my little IBM laptop with him. So, alla yous doods and doodesses
 >... watch out. Now there are _two_ of us.

 >Please remember pop in your prayers and good thoughts.

 >Jim Mortellaro, Jr.
 >(The Lesser Morty)


Dear James (The Lesser), List and Mr. Bruce-Knapp,

Reports of my early demise are truly unfounded. It is not my
intention to leave my assets to my only child (and he is still
that) at this time. My heart and it's arterial system is now up
and running, as am I. To my son, I am afraid that you will have
to "up with me put," as you like to write, for at least some
years.

To this List, upon examination of many posts to date, I have
come to the conclusion that not enough attention is being given
to the abduction experience by posters on this List. The
examination of various sightings is both admirable and required,
however where is the interest in the abduction experience and
where is the research? And further, where is the communication
among researchers and abductees? And why?

Attention is being paid elsewhere, but the focus is on the work,
as well as on the communication between the various abduction
researchers (of any merit) and not on posturing on a List.

I find this to be terribly interesting. Abduction research is
ongoing but not in plain view. Research on sightings and other
close encounters is in plain view and argued ad nausea. Well,
perhaps not ad nausea.

I would respectfully call your attention to this interesting
phenomena, as it does make me wonder why it is thus.


James Mortellaro
The Greater








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: Request For Assistance - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:33:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:33:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Assistance - Velez


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:07:31 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Request For Assistance

 >Hi Folks,

 >I'm looking for an issue of Contaco Ovni magazine that was
 >published sometime in October 2001.  The issue was about the
 >Jonathan Reed UFO hoax and was full color.  If anyone out there
 >can get a copy, please privately e-mail me, I would greatly
 >appreciate it.


Hiya Royce,

You might want to try one of my best sources for Spanish related
UFO info, Daniel Mu=F1oz.

ovnimexico@ninallinares.com

Danny is a UFO UpDates List member, he may contact you on his
own if he gets to read this (or your original) post. I have
provided his contact address. If you don't have any success
through Daniel, get in touch with me privately, as I also have
other *contacts in Spain, Mexico and Puerto Rico that may prove
helpful.

(*Because they are not UpDates List members I cannot publish their
private e-mail addresses here.)

Good luck in your hunt amigo.

Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                   Re: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:07:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:51:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:23:52 -0400
 >Subject: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found "Unconvincing"

 >SOURCE: La Voz del Interior (Cordoba, Argentina)
 >DATE: Wednesday, July 3, 2002

 >SENASA Explanation Found Unconvincing in R=EDo Cuarto

<snip>

 >Meanwhile, another mutilated bovine, missing eyes and genitals -
 >characteristics similar to other finds in other provinces - was
 >discovered late yesterday in the town of San Pedro, Department
 >of Santa Rosa, 150 km from the provincial seat.

I thought the List might find the following interesting. Ted
Oliphant wrote this in 97 but it never became well known. Ted
has first-hand knowledge since he was a police officer who
investigated many cattle mutilations. This is an excerpt from
"Dead Cows I've Known: A Fresh Look At Cattle Mutilation Theory"
See entire article at:

http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/crop_circles_and_cattle_mutilations/mut.html

Over the last ten years, law enforcement in dozens of States
have been trying to track and identify unmarked helicopters
sighted where area livestock have been discovered dead under
suspicious circumstances. The helicopters are seen before and
after these cows are found in pastures, missing certain organs.
The same things are always taken. Bovine jaws are stripped to
the bone, reproductive organs removed, entire tongues, digestive
tracks and rectums are "cored" out. There is little to no blood
at the scene.

Many tissue samples taken by police investigators and analyzed
at veterinary labs, show signs of exposure to heat, three
hundred degrees or more.

The tissue is cooked and the incisions are cauterized by the
heat. This prevents blood and other fluids from leeching onto
the ground. Everything taken has to do with input, output and
reproduction. In recent mutilation cases, Alabama 1993 & 1994,
California 1996 and Florida 1997; pharmaceuticals have been
found in bovine blood. They are: Barbiturates, Anti-coagulants,
Synthetic Amphetamines, Aluminum-Titanium -Oxygen-Silicon
flakes, and Antimony (Antimony: A brittle lustrous white
metallic element occurring in nature, free or combined, used
chiefly in alloys and in compounds in medicine. Webster's).

According to recent police reports, some investigating officers
have claimed that the concentrations of drugs found are not of
veterinary nature, that the are pharmaceutical concentrations
found would be more associated with humans. Among those law
enforcement agents who have thoroughly investigated these bovine
excision sites, there is a consensus that some kind of medical
testing going on.

The additional presence of helicopters on scene, before and
after cattle are found dead missing specific organs, leads both
victimized farmers and investigating officers to conclude that
there is a connection. But why use human drugs on cows? Use your
imagination.

Every organ taken from affected livestock has to do with input,
output and reproduction. Where entire jaws have been excised in
large, oval excisions, the bone is exposed and is perfectly
clean. The wounds have been cauterized and there is no presence
of blood. The jaw is an important area, particularly because
enzymes produced in human saliva glands can kill viruses and
bacteria. Though it's not the case in animals, we wonder why
similar things are taken? The digestive track also acts as a
filter, that absorbs, collects and stores traces of any chemical
or toxin introduced. The rectum is a similar filter, as are
ears. They store traces of toxins and chemicals like a library.
This is true in humans and animals. So far there are no known
cases of inherited BSE, but the reproductive system may be a
good place to find look for clues on how TSEs pass to the next
generation.

In 1993, I got a call from a man who told me that if I went to a
certain place on a certain evening, I would see several
helicopters land and refuel. He was right. Well after dark, two
Chinook helicopters (The large twin rotor type) landed in the
field behind some trees and carrying black plastic fuel
bladders. Minutes later several smaller scout helicopters landed
nearby, shut down and crews from the Chinooks walked over with
large hoses and refueled each of a half dozen helicopters.

The whole operation took less than 30 minutes and the Chinook
helicopters took off and headed across the border where we
tracked them to their home base, Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

Now we knew who they were but we couldn't figure out why they
refueled on Sand Mountain. The next morning a reporter, Steven
Smith from the Rainsville Weekly Post, called the Public Affairs
Officer, Captain William Gibbons of the 101st Airborne and asked
if they might've been in our area the previous evening. "We have
no aircraft in your area, it wasn't us" said the captain. It
certainly was.

So we knew then that some kind of secret operation was being
conducted, but we didn't know what it was. We still don't, but
when you look at each piece of evidence and try to use them as
puzzle pieces, these so called "cattle mutilations" might be
associated with government studies of epidemiology.

With BSE & CJD and many other diseases being so devastating, is
it possible than many alleged cases of "cattle mutilations" are
actually evidence of our tax dollars at work?

More at:

http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/crop_circles_and_cattle_mutilations/mut.html

Ed








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   Jul > Jul 3

                          Filer's Files #27 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:23:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:59:08 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #27 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #27-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
July 3, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

GOD BLESS AMERICA AND A HAPPY JULY 4TH.

UFO SIGHTINGS: New York disc, Maryland parallelogram, Virginia
flying triangle, Florida sphere, Mississippi daylight sphere,
Indiana boomerang, California triangle, Washington sightings
investigation, Canada lights, Argentina mutilations reach 170 +,
China 5th UFO sighting, Australia UFO follows car, Norway UFO
Center opens. Mount Hood may awaken. Russian author claims
flying saucers are US reconnaissance aircraft.

MEN IN BLACK II

During the Jay Leno Tonight Television Show last Thursday, Will
Smith was the guest telling about his new movie Men in Black II,
where government personnel attempt to hide the truth about UFOs
from the public. Jay asked, what is your picture about? Will
Smith said, "The picture is a documentary!" Everyone laughed
but, the picture despite its fantasies may be closer to the
truth than the public realizes.

DOES THE SUN LOOK SMALLER?

Earth reaches its greatest distance from the Sun (aphelion)
during the 4th of July holiday weekend. Curiously, our planet
is globally warmer when it is farther from the Sun. Thanks to
NASA Science News: The Distant Sun -
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/02jul_aphelion.htm

SIGNS INDICATE MOUNT HOOD VOLCANO AWAKENING

OREGON -- Mitch Battros writes In the last few days,
seismologist have begun to watch Mt. Hood very closely because
it is starting to show signs of waking up with an eerie
similarity to the precursor actions of Mt. St. Helens. Mt. Hood
is located in the Cascade Volcano Range. Jim Berkland, Geologist
(retired) and who formerly worked for the USGS (United States
Geological Survey) says, "My thoughts are that this seems almost
identical to what happened at Mt. St. Helens on March 20, 1980,
when a 4.4M quake was followed by several others. On March
27th, 1980 it began to erupt." The USGS on July 1, 2002, stated
"The strongest earthquake in the Mount Hood area with a
magnitude 4.5 occurred at 07:36. Hundreds of aftershocks
followed. Editor's Note: the famous Mexican volcano Popocatp=E9tl
has almost daily sightings of UFOs. It is reasonable to assume
the UFOs will also take interest in Mount Hood. Pilot Kenneth
Arnold's sighting in June 24, 1947, of UFOs not far from Mount
Hood got national press and marked a definite beginning to the
flying saucer era. Several days later the Roswell UFO crash
occurred.
http://www.earthchangestv.com/secure/Breaking_News/June2002/0630mthood.htm

RUSSIAN CLAIMS UFOs ARE US RECONNAISSANCE AIRCRAFT

In the book "Liquidation of the UFO," author researcher Pavel
claims he has proof that UFOs are "flying discs," manufactured
in the United States. He says, "The basic flying disc principle
was developed by the Germans in WW II and used in their Foo-
Fighters, and after the war Soviet and US engineers learned
their secrets. Poluyan explains the principle used by "flying
discs" is the aero dynamic effect that allows the craft to fly
using the air luminescence around the UFO vibrating body.
  Electric devices cause an uneven oscillation of cup-like and
ellipsoidal forms in the atmosphere. The repulsive power of
induction, which occurs in the metal-plastic body of "flying
discs" as a result of high frequencies variable electromagnetic
field, is used to create a "motive vibration." A parachute uses
essentially the same principle in flight as the flying saucer.
  A great circular canopy, while slowly descending has
resistance, that compensates for gravity's pull on the parachute
jumper. The design is very important with the hollow surface
having the greatest strength factor, while the surface bent
towards the movement, a smooth form, has a smaller strength
factor. Therefore, it is clear why the first "flying saucers"
had such a form: flat from below and smooth from above. These
"flying saucers" fly without anti-gravitation; they simply lean
against the air and through irregular micro-amplitude movements,
gravity is overcome. The principle is essentially the same as a
medusa in water, which also uses the difference of forces while
moving up and down. The outside surfaces of the wing create the
lift so that they can hover like a helicopter, standard engines
can create the forward propulsion.

Pavel Poluyan says, "Let us logically think: if the "flying
saucers" are not hallucinations and not natural phenomena, so
they must be artificial devices. They are produced in only two
variants, they are produced either on the Earth or somewhere
else. UFOs seriously differ from aircraft and helicopters: they
have no wings, they are silent, and they have some luminescence
around them. Therefore, the extraterrestrial version is the
most logical. However, this explanation is too impossible, too
fantastic. During George Bush's visit to Moscow, RenTV showed
the film "UFO: LIFE BEHIND BARBED WIRE, where generals and
colonels of the Russian army, told about their observations and
about the state program of spying on 'flying saucers' over
Russian territory. The generals pointed to Americans: they are
said to possess secret technology that is dangerous for mankind.

Pavel maintains that "flying discs" were created at the end of
the 40s within the framework of a secret military project in the
USA. The 20th century, technological change brought many
surprises such as jets nuclear bombs and the UFO. There were
numerous UFO incidents and crashes in the United States that
were connected with the development of the UFO for military
purposes. He claims it is obvious that these were tests,
because different devices with different types of engines were
seen and photographed. There is also evidence that the "flying
saucers" of the 1940s had nozzles, vertical trimmers, and flew
in a zigzag way, so an inversion track could be seen after them.
  In June 1947, the Roswell incident took place in the US when a
"flying saucer" crashed. The US military stated at first they
had captured a flying saucer and then stated it was a secret
balloon. The truth is more prosaic, Poluyan claims the US
actively tested secret flying devices that were often wrecked.
  He used information from Dr. B. Maccabee, Ph.D. book, "UFO FBI
Connection. "The Secret History of the Government's Cover-up,"
2000, Llewellyn Publications.

Pavel comes to the conclusion that extraterrestrial UFOs are
fiction, that the disk aircraft were used by US intelligence for
collecting data over the USSR and to stop exploiting the secret
technology for the wrong purposes. He asks the world community
and public opinion should discredit the greatest mystification
of 20th century. "Thanks to On-line PRAVDA
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/27/31259.html and Stig
Agermos ranger116@webtv.net

NEW YORK DISK SIGHTING

MASSENA -- On June 7, 2002, an object was seen in the sky above
Route 37, at about 1,000 feet elevation with a silvery mirror-
like appearance. The object was hovering at 12:58 AM, and then
began moving quickly to the north-northwest, appearing then
disappearing. The sky was clear but this object was almost too
bright to look at when closer. It was a disc shaped object that
began gaining altitude rapidly and finally disappeared. The
witness felt compelled to report the sighting. This was not an
airplane as far as I know. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com.

MARYLAND PARALLELOGRAM SPOTTED

PASADENA - Bill reports that on June 25, 2002, it was a hot,
humid, overcast, and hazy day and at 7:30 PM, I was driving east
on Maryland Route 100, when, I spotted a large, slow-moving,
parallelogram-shaped object low in the sky a mile or so away,
ahead of me. Through the haze, the object appeared medium to
dark gray. Before I reached Magothy Bridge Road., the object
crossed over the road, and turned away from me, revealing a very
slim, narrow end profile, slightly wider at the middle than at
the top or bottom edges. It nosed slightly downward and began
descending, at which point I lost sight of it behind the trees.
  I couldn't see any protrusions like wings, stabilizer fins, or
rotors. I think I'd have seen any such prominent feature. The
only visual detail I could pick out of the haze was a small
silver/metallic colored spot at the top front tip -- suggestive
of a windshield? There may have been a lengthwise ridge along
the top of the object, but I couldn't really discern that
clearly. I didn't hear anything, but I was driving in traffic
at 55 mph, most of the time and it had no lights visible on it.
  The parallelogram profile was about 3 times as long as its
width, flying longitudinally and level until it turned and
descended. The visual length was about the diameter of a
quarter at arm's length.

It was larger than a 747s fuselage. I followed trying to get
another look at it and caught the light, I then proceeded about
2 miles ahead, past where Rt. 100 ends, but had poor views of
the sky. I stopped at an open field, at Phelps Liquors where a
couple of teenage guys were playing 2-man baseball and I asked
them if they had seen the strange thing in the sky a few minutes
earlier. They said they hadn't. Although this location is
fairly close to Baltimore Washington International Airport, I
don't think I've ever seen any large aircraft low in the sky in
that particular area. It was flying atl under 1000 feet. It
moved smoothly and slowly, and didn't wobble. Thanks to
bilrux@aol.com and Skywatch International

VIRGINIA SAILOR SEES LIGHTS

NORFOLK -- The witness who is in the Navy was walking from his
car to the ship on June 12, 2002, and noticed an object in the
sky. He states, "Being familiar to the air traffic on base, I
thought it was just a plane passing by, but when I looked at the
object, I noticed how the lights were positioned." Instead of
the lights being on each end of the craft, they were lined up
side by side in multiple colors such as red, green, yellow, and
orange." The sailor said, "It was strange to me at first, but I
kind of thought it was probably a Harrier aircraft that was
entering some storm clouds, and suddenly it turned into a bright
red oval like flash as I watched, and it did not come out the
other side of the clouds." I would have seen it if it changed
course, because the base is huge. "I didn't tell any higher ups
about it, because I'm not crazy!" Editor's Note: The military
loses hundreds of high quality reports due to ridicule.

FLORIDA SPHERE SEEN

Deerfield Beach -- The witness was going to his car when he
happened to look up and noticed a sphere of light moving above
the clouds in what at first looked like a circular pattern on
June 24, 2001. My cell phone read 12:10 AM. What struck me as
irregular is that the object illuminated the clouds below it as
you would expect a flood light to do. But, a floodlight does
this from the ground up. This was occurring from above the
clouds down to the ground. There was no floodlight from the
ground up that could be illuminating the clouds in what at first
was a circular motion. I watched the object move repeatedly in
a circular pattern for about five minutes. I was mesmerized that
this object was not a plane, nor any object that I've ever seen
in my experience. The sphere moved in a circular motion, and
changed its path and began to zigzag. I had to keep my eyes
carefully on the object because it was moving in and out from
the cloud cover about 10,000-15000 feet altitued. It then
proceeded in its irregular pattern for another 10 minutes. The
object would move into and out of the clouds illuminated the
area above and below the clouds.

The object would slow down, then accelerate and again slow down.
  It was a white sphere bigger than the moon illuminating the
area around itself with a tremendous amount of white light. It
continued to move erratically in and out of the clouds and
decsending closer to the ground. It then stopped in the air for
about thirty seconds, the sphere light went out, and then the
sphere lit up with pure bright white light like a flash bulb for
about 15 seconds. Just before it moved away at a fantastic
acceleration. The bright light went out, but I could still see
the dark shape of the outline of a sphere. After about 5
seconds, it zipped up and moved away in a southerly direction
and in a second, you could not see it any more. It was now
12:30 AM. Thanks to NUFORC

MISSISSIPPI WOMAN HAS DAYLIGHT SIGHTING OF SPHERE

TUPELO -- On June 7, 2002, I was waiting at a traffic light on
South Gloster Street, south of Tupelo, about 1230 hours CDT when
I glanced above the light at a large "Chemtrail." As I observed
the trail, just below it appeared a very bright sphere or disc.
  At first it was stationary, then moved a short distance to the
east, changing to a darker shade as it moved, then just
disappeared. I continued to my home where I reported the event
to my husband. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC,
http://www.ufocenter.com.

INDIANA BOOMERANG

MARTINSVILLE -- Lee writes, "I live in a small town in central
Indiana, just south of Indianapolis by about 30 miles. On the
evening of June 24, 2002, around 8:45 PM. While fishing I saw a
boomerang shaped object white in color at an altitude around
45,000 to 60,000 feet. The stars could not be seen, but the
craft was very visible. It was white in color moving at super
sonic speeds because it covered the entire sky in less than a
second. Yet there wasn't any sonic boom, sound or chemtrails
left behind. It was traveling from west to east. Thanks to
Lee.

CALIFORNIA TRIANGLE FORMATION

CAMP PENDLETON -- A trained observer spotted a suspicious object
around the camp's air space on June 10, 2002, at three minutes
after sunset. The object emitted a light at a magnitude
equivalent with that of Venus and WNW of mcas. The object
remained stationary for 30 seconds then nose-dived for the deck
traveling 20 degrees in three seconds. The object distance was
12 to 15 miles from the observer. The distance was determined by
using cloud distances on radar.

GILROY -- At 1:48 AM three fuzzy soft white lights with
transparent centers in a triangle formation were traveling west
in a small valley at a speed of about 600 mph on June 8, 2002.
  The lights increasing their speed to above mach with an
altitude of about 150' then climbing to around 2000 feet. The
object was below 1200 feet when it first came into view, and
gradually climbed to clear the 1200 foot mountains 8 miles to
the west of my location. The lights were spaced about 15 feet
apart and held a fixed formation while having no visible
structure between them. It is quite possible that the three
lights were not connected at all. the object seemed to reflect a
very small amount of light when it was above the main part of
the city as the three lights became more distinguishable from
each other as they reached the darker edges of the city. The
object passed directly overhead and the whole thing seemed to
have a soft warm off white fuzzy glow to it. I would compare
the brightness and look of the lights to three barn owls flying
through the dark sky. My friend claims that when I ran to get
my video camera the steady lights changed to a pulsing jumping
light as it accelerated. The object did not move in a steady
continuous motion but in a leaping jumping way with a swoosh!
rush of air sound. I do not recall any sound except for the
air rushing past my ears as I ran. I regret making the decision
to go get my camera. I sacrificed observing this object make
these jumps. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC,
http://www.ufocenter.com.

WASHINGTON SIGHTINGS AND INVESTIGATION

TACOMA -- At about 3:00 PM on June 9, 2002, two friends were
laying on their back doing crossword puzzle and I just looked up
into the sky. A bright, clear, blue sky, and saw what appeared
to be stars. I thought this was very strange -- could they be
birds, seed pods, planes, and kept asking my friend if he could
see them. He could not see anything. There were probably 40 or
50 "stars" moving slowly toward the east -- they were forming
different patterns as they moved (circles, chevrons, Orion). At
one point a plane flew across the sky below them so they were
pretty high. The movement of these objects was sideways and
backwards and circular and they formed patterns. I don't know of
any birds that fly that way or seedpods that would be visible at
such a high altitude. I have very good vision, have flown quite
a bit and have never seen anything like this before. I am also a
skeptic but I was totally blown away by this. After I watched
these "stars" for about 5-10 minutes they simply faded up into
the sky as if they were moving away and upward. Has anyone seen
anything like this?

GLENOMA -- The witness was outside looking at the stars sitting
next to a fire with a friend and relaxing 3:00 AM on June 9,
2002. We were noticing that the birds in the trees were acting
up and that his hybrid wolves were acting agitated when we
caught a white flash of light moving from west to east. The
sighting lasted maybe 20 seconds and we followed the course of
the object till it faded from site. Approximately 1/2 hour
after that we saw it again but this time it was traveling from
south and was more intense this time.  Thanks to NUFORC. The
International Space Station passed over the state of Washington
at 22:26 hours. See http://heavens-above.com/passsummary.asp
3:00 PM on June 9,

SPOKANE INVESTIGATION -- MUFON's Jeffrey Sainio reports the
judge has sent me several photos since the initial submission
through Filer's Files and although the frequency of sightings is
unusual, typically indicating misidentifications of airplanes,
I've not seen any photographic evidence these are airplanes.
  Any legal airplane, from any direction, has at least 1 strobe
blinking once/second visible. These would appear as a bright
white spot, with no motion-smearing, on a long exposure. None
have appeared. Nor have red/green lights been apparent.
  Several appear to show nonstandard lighting. A few appear to
show color changes. Photo sequences appear to show a path
impossible for an airplane. I suspect these objects (alien or
otherwise) are at such low altitude they are literally 'below
the radar' and are rejected as ground clutter. I can only judge
based on the photo and witness evidence. "The Judge makes
conclusions based on evidence and speculates and admits this.
  There is evidence embedded in his photos, that are not apparent
to a non-expert that matches his testimony. His photographic
knowledge appears a little better than any other telescopic
photographer and the photos sent to me have streetlights/tower
lights which I used for reference points. These were quite
adequate. I've asked for reference shots to check film response
(which he sent me, not quite understanding my need, that
sufficed in ways he didn't understand). The anomalous features
I find are:

1. Erratic path (easily done with a windborne balloon or kite,
not easy for planes/helicopters)

2. Anomalous fast color changes (tough to do with any light
source)

3. Unknown lighting configuration. I'm no expert on every
plane's lighting, but the usual commercial craft appears to be
eliminated. An interesting case of this is at:
http://pages.prodigy.net/thr-ok/LawtonTriangle.html. See photos
at http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2002/index.php

CANADA FLASH

SIMCOE, ONTARIO -- After reading this issue of the Filer's
Files, I submitted my experience to MUFON tonight because my
experience happened at almost the same time as one of the other
sightings (near Aurora) and is also in Ontario. I live in
Simcoe, Ontario just north of Lake Erie, which is about a 40
minute drive from Brantford where the other report happened.
  About 11:10 p.m. on June 6, 2002, I stepped out onto my balcony
facing west-and looked up into the night sky. A very bright
streak of greenish light moved across the sky in silence and
disappeared in a second. The ribbon of light moved west at 30
degrees above the horizon. Just shortly after this I saw a
plane whose lights very tiny compared to the size of the ribbon
of light. Last summer I also saw a white light move slowly o
south while on the north shore of Lake Erie. I described it to
a neighbor who flies for American Airlines and he said it didn't
seem like any plane he knew about. I really appreciate the
effort you put into your newsletter. Keep up the great work!
Linda Schulhoff

ARGENTINA UFOs, DWARFS, MUTILATIONS AND MISSING WATER

The mystery in Argentina grows with a wild boar added the list
of cows, horses, guanaco and sheep being mutilated. The wild
boar is highly distrustful and detects -- through their sharp
olfactory system--the presence of strangers. An eight month old
boar was found mutilated. While the mutilation count is now
reaching 170 and the cases recorded extend to nine Argentinean
provinces. This is the 6th species found with mutilations, lack
of blood and with geometrically perfect incisions and missing
the anus, tongue and jaw. To the surprise of the rancher and
the farmhand escorting him, the animal was still soft in spite
of the-14 C temperature. "It's impossible that an animal could
remain in this condition after dead and after the cold. A
mysterious situation also occurred to the north of the Pampan
town of Rancul at the "Los Caldenes" ranch, where a cow had died
of natural causes in the afternoon only to be found with
incisions on its jaw and missing its tongue the next day. The
province of Entre Rios has also the epicenter of these events:
in a field, a rancher found a 170 kg heifer and a 500 kg., milk
cow some 800 meters from each other, both presenting the
notorious incision marks.

Strange dwarf like midgets have been reported wandering the
backyards of many neighborhoods in General Acha. A short, green
entity which runs away with haste when detected has been
reported. These reports tied with UFO reports and mutilations
have the area in an uproar. The stories have been reported in
the news and on radio stations. Red intense lights, as though
from a laser, moving very quickly across the countryside are
being reported. Veterinarian Omar Fernando Lopez also observed a
new case that involved a pregnant cow found in the fields of
Juan Carlos Robilotte, showing the same incisions, with the
difference that the cow was about to give birth. "There was a
circle [on the left flank, above the udder] through which half
of the calf's body was protruding. A racehorse belonging to the
Quarter Horse breed, belonging to stables near the town of
Choele Choel, was found dead with strange mutilations. "It was
as though it had been hollowed out from within," reported police
sources in describing the stud horse, of considerable economic
value. Veterinarian Carlos Montobbio, who certified the case,
reported that the horse was missing an eye and tongue, but no
incisions on the maxillary had been performed. It had also been
castrated and a significant part of its small intestine and
rectum had been removed.

CARHU=C9 -- Several residents claimed to have seen strange lights
related to the presence of UFOs. The para-
discuss@yahoogroups.com reported a letter from Argentina
stating, "We have great fields and a lot of cattle in Patagonia.
  In April gauchos found some cows dead with perfect mutilations
with eyes, jugular vein, nipples and genitals removed. Virtually
the same parts were cut and cauterized in a perfect way. The
mutilated animals seem to be dropped from the air. Cults were
ruled out because the bodies do not have any cult marks or
symbols. There are no footprints and carrion do not eat the
dead body? Perhaps even more astounding is the sudden
disappearance of water from reservoirs and tanks during the
night. Frogs were found dead in reservoirs where one hundred
thousand liters of water disappeared over night. Obviously
frogs can live for long periods without water, so their death
may be a clue to the mystery. Argentina does not have
sophisticated tools or advanced equipment to do research.

LA PLATA -- Argentinean health authorities concluded that a
small carnivorous mouse known as "red muzzle (hocicudo rojizo,
in Spanish) was responsible for the mysterious mutilations found
in recent months in over a hundred cow carcasses in different
rural sectors of the country. The lifeless bovine bodies, which
were largely found without anuses and missing parts of the mouth
and genitals, and around which no tracks or traces could be
found, gave rise to a wide array of speculations ranging from
Satanic rites and UFOs to little green men. Bernardo Can=E9,
president of the National Health and Agroalimentary Quality
Service (SENASA), brought the mystery to a close today and
pointed out that the party responsible for the mutilations is a
mouse that dwells in rural areas and whose nutritional habits
have changed due to the scarcity of worms and insects it
normally feeds on, turning into a scavenger. This was the
conclusion reached by scientists from the Universidad Nacional
del Centro. The study promotes the belief that the animals died
from malnourishment and Magnesium deficiencies, with the
presence of parasites and metabolic shortcomings. Thanks to
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic

Editors Note: Many of the mutilated animals were found facing
east, had all their blood removed and appear as if dropped from
altitude. Apparently they are taking thousands of gallons of
water and killing animals such as boars, horses, frogs and
cattle. These red mice are really tricky.

CHINA'S FIFTH UFO SIGHTING SINCE APRIL

SHENZHEN -- I am not the first to see it that night. A
newspaper reporter reported first seeing an elliptical object
that was size as 1,500 meters tall. He followed it south from
the airport where police and other people had gathered.
  Photographs were taken by the reporter. It was observed from
7:45 to 9:00 PM by several witnesses. At 8:00 PM, I left my
home to visit the store and I observed a "star" 10 x larger than
a magnitude 1. I went home and didn't put too much attention as
to what I saw. At 8:20 PM, I arrived home to observe the full
moon that had rose out of the west and now was quite high in the
sky. In the lower left hand side near the ground, I saw a
bright flash of an elliptical object, one eighth the size of the
full moon take off at a tremendous speed. Two helicopters were
following, unable to keep up. The next day, the full story was
printed in Shenzhen's local newspaper, The Daily Sunshine.

AUSTRALIA UFO FOLLOWS TWO FEMALE MOTORISTS

VICTORIA -- On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, Emilie P. and a woman
companion were driving from Leongatha to Mirboo North when they
encountered a UFO. "My friend and I were traveling to our
work," Emilie reported, "That Wednesday we sighted something in
the sky, but I put it off as a jet. It appeared long and
silver-looking. One week later, however, on June 19, 2002, the
silver object returned at the same time and I took some interest
in it. It seemed to be getting closer. As it got closer, it
appeared to be at a 45-degree angle and of a silver color."
  "While my friend continued driving, I was watching and came
down to our right-hand side and appeared to be hovering above
200 meters away. The next thing, it was gone. Then I looked up
and it was in front of us again. It seemed to get closer and
then further away before it vanished over the horizon.  Thanks
to UFO ROUNDUP, Vol. 7, # 26, 6/25/02, Editor: Joseph Trainor

NORWEGIAN UFO CENTER OPENS

On June 27, 2002, the "Norsk UFO Senter" opened in Alen. The
UFO Center shows pictures, describe sightings and shows films
from the Hessdalen sightings. It has also a lot more. It is open
daily and is located in the main center in Holtalen, the nearest
village is Hessdalen in the famous UFO valley in Norway. The
nearest town is Roros, 33 km south of the center, Trondheim the
nearest city is 120 km north. The center also has a UFO safari
to Hessdalen. Thanks to Erling.P.Strand@hiof.no.Professor,
Ostfold College,.

MUFON 2002 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM

On July, 5-7, 2002, the 33rd annual MUFON conference will be
held at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Rochester, New York. Come
hear the top speakers from the US, Canada, and England on UFOs
and abductions. The Platinum Package is priced at $150.00 per
person Please contact Jim Bouck nitesiter@yahoo.com or Bob
Long - alienchasr@aol.com or the MUFON Website.

CONFUSED ABOUT ROSWELL?

By far the best explanation of the "Holy Grail of Ufology" is in
researcher Robert Durant's new video/DVD. Much of the material
from this exciting and authoritative presentation has never
appeared in books or on TV. You will meet the central military
officers and witnesses, examine the Air Force explanation for
the Roswell Incident, and hear the pros and cons of the case.
When you are through, you will know why Durant titled his video
"Roswell? Yes!" and, why I agree. Available from MVP-F, P.O.
Box 1292, Kearny, NJ 07032, $15.00 + $4.00 S/H, or call (201)
991-8227. Specify VHS or DVD. Major credit cards accepted. Or,
visit my online UFO Store http://.www.filersfiles.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the complete files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue that the item appeared. These reports
and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.
  Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

               Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:18:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:10:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The 'Strange Days... Indeed' interview with Joe Nickell of
 >CSICOP and Stanton T. Friedman is available at:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/

 >click the Play button in the details cell of program 195 to
 >grab the .ra file

 >ebk


Foolish me! I would have thought that Dr. Joe Nickell (the
double "ll" says it all.) had a snowball's chance of coming off
with at _least_ a smidgen of the style, intelligence, and grace
shown by one Dr. Krauss on the Rense show, March 30th, 1999 when
Dr. Krauss (a better scientist than Dr. Nickell and with a more
germane PhD...) was solidly drubbed by Mr. Friedman in a similar
debate (but on a longer show) for even greater stakes.

No.

Quite the contrary. Dr. Nickell showed himself to be a small,
small man, dodging the points that Errol tried to return to
again and again. He petulantly, but somehow stuffily, self-
  aggrandized (incessantly) while (astonishingly!) accusing Mr.
Friedman of same. He _charged_ Ad Hominem attacks while _making_
Ad Hominem attacks, more than a few times, consistently avoiding
the points of discussion to attack the man he was arguing with.

He misrepresented facts, accepted his own proclamations as
certitude beyond debate, and annoyingly tried to step on the
signal of a respondent when the respondent graciously allowed
Dr. Nickell clear air with which to spew _his_ back-stepping
personal philosophy and noisy negativity. As I said, a small,
_small_ man.

He was insulting, officious, arrogant, and authoritarian. He was
rude, disingenuous, obfuscating, and trite.

He was shallow, arbitrary, superficial, and insincere. Finally,
he just wasn't knowledgeable, remotely conversant with the data,
or even very scientific (if he's afraid to go where the data
leads). CSICOP shows its colors again.

Dr. Nickell smarmily oozed the unctuous challenge that UFO cases
of merit, those worthy of impassioned and focused investigation,
did not exist. He dismissed 2000 years of history written in ink
and stone, quality pre-1960 photographs and motion pictures, eye
witness accounts from high caliber persons and corresponding
radar returns, and finally, sightings that _this_ highly
experienced retired military aviator has had (and written
extensively about) with an airy wave of his fatuous hand.

Well, here is a short list of cases ignored by Dr. Nickell's
corrupted mainstream, provided by Jerry Cohen:

http://www.cohenufo.org/

that I'm betting the boys at CSICOP wouldn't touch with Philip
Klass' dirty stick!

1. Kirtland AFB (11\4\57)
2. Hynek Blue Book Case (5\5\65)
3. Malmstrom AFB (3/20/67)
4. Incident at Redlands, Ca. (Hynek, BB, 2\4\68)
5. Exeter, New Hampshire (9\3\65)
6. Malmstrom AFB (11\7\75)
7. Iran F-4 Incident (9\76)
8. Belgium (1989\90)
9. Illinois, USA (1\5\2000)

There you go, Dr. Nicky! There's your list. Pipe, stuff, and
smoke!

Dr. Nickell mocked, sneered and digressed his way through the
whole 37 minutes of air time -- an accomplished artful dodger
and so therefore a credit to his spurious ilk, or the Committee
for the Silly and Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons
(CSICOP). Graded as an exercise, the good Doctor would have
earned an "F" in a high school debate class for his spurious and
deceitful performance. He would not stay on track despite
numerous admonitions by the moderator to do so. He made personal
attacks instead of arguing pertinent issues, all the while
accusing others of making those personal attacks. He self-
promoted, self-aggrandized, and self-congratulated near every
time he opened his mouth, and then slandered Stanton Friedman
with that charge when Mr. Friedman tried to cite his personal
web site for a paper reference! Pot, Kettle, very black, Dr.
Nickell!

Stanton Friedman would have won the debate handily if he hadn't
uttered a word. As it was, he comported himself with grace,
style and dignity despite smirking behavior, from Dr. Nickell,
that _this_ writer would have, most assuredly, bitch-slapped him
for. Read on.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                        Re: Birnes on Corso? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:10:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:12:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso? - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:22:16 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso?

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:53:14 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso?

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:40:10 EDT
 >>>Subject: Birnes on Corso?

 >>>Somebody got me the below... I thought Listers would be
 >>>interested in excerpts of this apparent interview between Birnes
 >>>and somebody else back in '97 or thereabouts. My comments are in
 >>>brackets

 >>As I recall. Col. Corse met with a number of researchers in
 >>Roswell in 1994 or 1995 and wanted to interest them in his
 >>involvement in the Roswell incident. It wasn't really made
 >>clear at the time what his involvement was, and most of the
 >>researchers simply took his story with a "grain of salt" and
 >>moved on, but two years later The Day After Roswell was
 >>released and he began his promotion of it.

 >>Some others on this list might have been at that event, and
 >>they might be able to expand on this. But this seems to
 >>contradict some of the story that Birnes is telling now.

 >>Steve

 >I have Corso on videotape holding forth at the Roswell
 >anniversary about his exploits. I also have Pflock on the same
 >tape embracing crash-test dummies (not physically, of course).
 >Must be the air in New Mexico!

 >- Dick

Hi Dick, Steve, All,

If Corso was "promoting" his involvement in the Roswell case he
certainly didn't have to expend much personal effort!

I attended the 50th anniversary of the Roswell "crash" with Budd
Hopkins. (1997) During breakfast (on the second day) we saw
Corso come ambling into the hotel dining room by his lonesome.
He seated himself at a table, ordered, and he lowered his head
as he began to read a newspaper. Budd was the first one to
notice him. "Hey, that's Phillip Corso, I'm going to go over for
a second to say hello." Off he went. He spent about 5 minutes
commiserating with Corso and then he returned to our table.

Shortly after Budd returned I noticed two others (unknown)
approach Corso's table and seat themselves. After a few minutes,
they left and another small group (three people I think)
approached Corso and the same scenario played itself out. They
sat for a few minutes and then left. This went on throughout
breakfast. The man must have spoken to at least a dozen
individuals in the short span of an hour. And that was just
breakfast!

If Corso was trying to interject himself into the Roswell
business he didn't have to go too far to do it. From what I saw,
everybody was coming to him! Apparently, all he had to do to
attach himself to the Roswell case was to 'show up.'  :)

Maybe you'll get more feedback from others who attended.

Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                          Magonia Supplement No 39

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:15:48 -0400
Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39


Here is the latest Magonia Supplement, edited by John Harney, to
who any comments should be addressed.

Of particular interest is the letter from Sarah, about her
father's migraine attacks. Long time List participants may
remember discussions about the connections between migraine and
some forms of the abduction experience when John Harney's
article was originally published. These comments from someone
with direct experience seem to reinforce Harney's suggestion -
which was denounced quite strongly at the time.

===========================================================

MAGONIA Supplement No. 39

July 2002 Editor: John Harney
harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk

EDITORIAL

About 12 years ago Dennis Stillings wrote, "The ETH is extremely
difficult to falsify, making it a fertile breeding ground for
every sort of fantasy." He concluded, "In summary, I have to
agree with those European ufologists who consider American
ufology to be a frightful mess." ("The American Way": A Cock-
  and-Bullard Story, Magonia, No. 35, January 1990)

Since then there has been little change in American ufology. The
psychosocial hypothesis is rejected out of hand. Sensible
explanations for "classic" cases are brushed aside, with remarks
about "armchair ufologists", "skeptibunkers" and "pelicanists".
Witnesses are assessed not on their reliability, but on whether
or not they say what the believers want to hear. Instead of
maturing over the years American ufology has remained in a state
of thumb-sucking infantilism.

-------------------------------------------------------------

JELLY PELLEY

Should these pre-saucer era aliens be rescued from the pit of
forgetfulness?

Martin S. Kottmeyer

I should have known better. Donna Kossy, in her book Strange
Creations, described this wild old work called Star Guests
(Fellowship Press, 1950) and I just had to get it. The material
derives from automatic writing done in the late 1920s, but has
commentary that postdates the dawn of the nuclear era. The book
has not a single word about flying saucers or UFOs. As Pelley's
Invisible Intellects can cross intergalactic distances in a
'twinkling,' there is evidently no use for them.

The book is part of one of those interminable channelling
projects one sees from time to time in the spiritualism
tradition. Pelley mentions three or four times in this book that
the Soulcraft project in total runs over a million words in
length. Though naive readers may be impressed the first time
they see this, the problem is that Pelley also has to plead
"don't be exercised" by the repetition he has been getting
complaints about. Yeah, it's one of those kind of writing
projects.

There is embedded in the project the well-intentioned idea to
make religious thought more palatable to modern sensibilities.
Pelley had imbibed some of the terrifying wonders of modern
astronomy and could no longer stomach fundamentalist
Christianity. He also realises there are other religions on the
planet with different concepts like reincarnation that we should
not really just ignore. So he waves down some Muses variously
termed Ancient Ruling Spirit, Great Author, Great Avatar, Great
Master, Great Soul, Master Teacher, Master Brain, Over- Spirit,
Super-Angels, Super Ministers, and Universal Spirit to give us
New Sermons on the Mount and Lessons of Eternity. Like many
channels, Pelley's muse is a King James wannabe and is in love
with "ye" and "thee" and "verily" and "whither" and "woe unto"
and "servants" and "sheep".

We end up with what science fiction editors once unfondly termed
another Shaggy God story. Long before Erich von Daniken got onto
bestseller lists, beginning SF writers filled slush piles with
rewrites of Bible stories gimmicked up with modern science.
Pelley realises that the universe is old. Souls from Sirius
migrated to Earth millions of years ago. They came here to don
bodies of matter and learn lessons that would aid them in their
graduation to Higher Levels of Attainment. Something went
horribly wrong after the celestial form fused with the beast
form. All sorts of biological anomalies and hybrid monsters were
created in the ensuing madness. The Great Abominatory Period or
Sodomic Age ended with a Purification - a Great Flood caused by
a passing sun melting one of the polar ice caps killed some
races. Also, fire was used to eliminate certain individual
forms. An angel-ape hybrid was saved and gendered to breed true
without further mixing across species. No more sphinxes and
bird-headed Egyptians!

That part of the book is admittedly clever, but it takes only a
chapter or so to tell it. The rest is rather less interesting.
We hear from the Man of Galilee at one point, but when you pluck
away the flowery language he comes across as an annoying lout.
He brags he can destroy the world if he wants to, but there are
some world wars coming up that he wants to watch, so he'll be a
nice guy and let us learn a few more lessons before he takes
those of us he doesn't consider beasts to a better planet.
Commenting on this 1929 Master Communication in 1950, Pelley
remembers the Man spoke of world wars in the plural and so was
expecting World War III. The Man also said "a Great Miracle soon
cometh". 'Soon' is always a bit tricky, but I'm for saying we
are well past the expiration date here and Pelley's Intellects
are looking more Invisible than intended.

For Discarnate Intelligences hyped as Great This and Master
That, their writings are soft and ethically unchallenging. We
are exhorted to Love, Relax, and Be Patient which are well-
enough virtues in some contexts, but are hardly the stuff that
inspires one to do great works. They also seem strangely
insecure. Witness, for example, this gem: "The enemy whispereth
that ye are hoaxed. In your heart of heart ye know that ye be
not hoaxed, else are ye turned aside from Me to commit
abominations of conscience and mission. Take no thought to these
whisperings." And pay no attention to the man behind the
curtain, eh, Mister Wizard? He entreats doubters to know these
revelations are "godlike and God-given," but what modern isn't
thinking "delusions of grandeur" confronted with lines like
that?

People educated in critical ways and able to stay awake through
the numbing verbiage will periodically find contentious
absurdities. At one point my eye awoke on a line claiming "Love
and Harmony are the only creative forces." But natural history
and biography often teaches that creativity feeds off
destruction. Some of the wonders of the animal kingdom are
shaped by arms races between predator and prey. In human
history, we often see technological advance is pushed along by
war and fear. Books generally form out of a spectrum of passions
that may often include envy, mischief, and aggression. I
particularly recalled a recent biography of Arthur Koestler who
was one of the great writers of the twentieth century. He was a
man of violent passions and it would be hard to deny they were
an important ingredient in his creativity.

Admittedly that is perhaps a minor flaw, so let's address a
matter Pelley seemed to consider paramount given the bold fonts
he uses. Pelley asks the Great Teacher for the greatest message
he wants to convey to the human race.  He gets back this; "THE
FACT that every life, no matter how humble, no matter how
tragic, no matter how broken or thwarted, has a meaning and an
Inner Glory and is precious in My sight!" A pretty thought for a
few seconds perhaps, but then you recall the fate that awaits
those people he calls enemies and beasts, the people who shun
Him: "These go their way to the Pit of Forgetfulness, I tell
you, to dwell throughout the Everlasting Nameless. Be advised,
the world hath need of all, beloved, but the last." Silliness,
of course.  Torquemada, Osama, and terrorist believers are
precious in his sight while the neighbourly village atheist can
go to hell.

Ultimately this Scripture falls into contradictions of
sensibilities. How can one really be modern clinging too closely
to ancient attitudes like this and failed beliefs like the
perennially rescheduled Second Coming? It is viscous goo, a
little sweet and slick. Style - but no substance.

Kossy believes some of Pelley's stuff found its way into later
alien channels like those of George Hunt Williamson. That may be
so, but it is hard to decide. Clearly they share some of the
same Shaggy God ambitions of rewriting the Gospels for the
modern age, but that ambition was and is pretty widespread.
Occult literature is a vast river of ink. In some ways it is too
poorly mapped out to be sure Pelley is the source as against
some other deservedly forgotten channelers. There are doubtless
crosscurrents among the various channels.

If, as claimed, this really is the Divine Wisdom of another
world order that hails from planets in other world systems in
'decimal Space,' well, Too Bad.

--------------------------------------------------------

LITERARY CRITICISM

Reviews by Martin S. Kottmeyer

Athena Andreadis. To Seek Out New Life: The Biology of Star
Trek, Crown, 1998

This is a totally curmudgeonly dissection of Star Trek from the
perspective of someone very savvy in the fields of biology,
linguistics, and anthropology.  Transporters? Bah! Universal
translators? Yeah, right! Human-alien hybrids?Get real!
Changelings, holodecks, telepaths, pure energy beings? Git-
  outta'ere! Okay, she knows its just a TV show and you have to
keep things interesting, but even so, it's always to good to
know why these things are impossible. Andreadis struts her stuff
cutting down the premises of most of the gimmicks of the Trek
universe that a scientist of her training is entitled to kill.
And it's a joy to watch. There is a rich tradition of nit
picking in trek-dom and she is setting herself as a grand
master. Violation of the Prime Directive is a particularly
popular debating point and her discussion of the ethical
inconsistencies it leads to both in the series and as a
practical philosophical edict has to be the best I have ever
seen. Her discussions of Klingon society, Vulcan psychology, and
Trill symbiosis are pretty keenly thought out as well. I totally
recommend it and even ufologists can learn a thing or two from
it.  Like, human-alien hybrids? Get real!


John Horgan. The Undiscovered Mind: How the Human Brain Defies
Replication, Medication, and Explanation, Free Press, 1999.

This is a lack of progress report on efforts to understand how
the brain works. Much as we like to believe that computers are
getting better at doing the things that the brain does, we
appear to be a good way from building one that mimics common
sense in a useful way. Efforts to modify the brain with drugs
remain strangely ambiguous despite all the hype we hear about
Prozac.  Placebos - read Hope - are still one of the most
powerful methods of helping people. Talking cures are similarly
mired in doubts. We have little proof that any of the hundreds
of therapies are better than any of the others and some evidence
suggests that faith healing is better than anything supposedly
rooted in scientific insights. People with no training in any
psychological doctrines do as well at helping people as those
who have years of experience. Efforts to explain human behavior
by genes have been bogged down by many phony claims. Only
certain clearly defined disorders where the brain breaks down at
the neurological level like Huntington's disease have an
undeniable genetic basis. Twin studies have problems that don't
often find their way into popular articles on the subject. While
Horgan is not in doubt that evolution contributed to the
creation of our complex brains, a variety of claims in the
emerging domain of evolutionary psychology are not much better
than works of fiction. Between the ground of neurons and the
airy realm of the everyday functioning of thought is a structure
that is still little described by any existing theory. Not a
book for the easily depressed.

Pascal Boyer. Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of
Religious Thought, Basic Books, 2001.

Now here is a tough one. The title states the ambition clearly
enough. Boyer wants to give us an evolutionary explanation of
religion. His framework is built from blocks of anthropological
study and the presently fashionable vogue of cognitive
psychology. The latter sees the brain as having evolved
specialised modules for the processing of information and tasks.
These modules came into being during the last few million years
to implement survival strategies against the harsh life of
Africa. Religion is of course a byproduct of the functioning of
these modules, not an adaptive strategy to deal with real
spirits and gods who care about our individual behaviour.

Boyer patiently and carefully walks us through anthropological
definitions and the findings of cognitive research and there is
nothing overtly weird, but this is such unfamiliar territory it
evidently is hard for the average reader to assess it. The
analogy is probably unfair, but it is a bit like an average
person walking through a discussion of the proof for Fermat's
Last theorem. Everything seems in order in the bits we
understand, but you pretty much have to defer to mathematicians
when they say it is a compelling proof.  Boyer recognizes there
is frustration to the approach being offered because it is
ultimately a complex matter involving several cognitive
processes. It lacks simplicity and intuitive clarity.

There are some aspects of Boyer's thesis that I suspect sooner
or later could be transplanted into a post-Hendry critique of
IFO cognitive processing. There may also be material here that
would describe the nature of techno-spirituality in cults like
Unarius. The frustration that adheres to such an endeavour is
that it will likely be unsatisfactory for similar reasons. It
might be formally right, but few will recognise it without a
background in cognitive psychology.


"Bringing UFOs Down to Earth"  The New Explorers, A & E Home
Video (1998)

There aren't very many UFO videos that advance the sceptical
viewpoint. Most either are blatant advocacy or give a pretence
of objectivity by giving sceptics a half-minute or so to
counterbalance 45 minutes of mystification.  This one is a rare
effort to get into the debunkers' mindset. It isn't terribly
sophisticated and to my eye comes across as a short course on
"Flying Saucers 101", but, I suppose, one has to start
somewhere. Phil Klass and James McGaha, one of the lesser known
figures in the CSICOP orbit, are the people most prominently
featured in this effort. Both are in fairly good form here and
come off better than we see in standard sound-bite UFO
journalism.

The prime pro-UFO spokesman is Jaime Maussan of Mexican ufology
who has been hawking videos of UFOs and suggesting that The
Landing will "very soon" take place in Mexico. The most
delightful aspect of the show is the investigation of a UFO that
has been seen regularly after midnight from a certain place in
the Brazilian rain forest. No prizes for guessing what this
might be, but along the way they show this village is so remote
it has no power lines. Not much chance these people have been
exposed to UFO mythology, right? Well, no. They pull the sheet
off a battery-operated TV and then show clips of local Brazilian
news programmes showing UFO symbols settling into places that
have recently had sightings. Locals refer to these shows having
UFO stories they saw on TV.

The programme seems a bit contrived and I doubt it will inspire
anybody to rush into a career of debunking - not that there is
such a thing - given the unexciting nature of this story. If you
find a copy of this on sale, you might want to look at it, but I
wouldn't spend full price on it.

"UFO Cults" The Unexplained   A & E Home Video Basically we get
in this video a journalistic account of Heaven's Gate from its
beginnings when Marshall Applewhite teamed up with Bonnie
Nettles for their 1973 Road Trip, through Bonnie's death by
brain cancer, to the mass suicide. Terrie Nettles describes how
she and her mother wanted UFOs to pick them up. We get
appearances by Hayden Hewes and Brad Steiger and David Taylor
who did earlier writings on the group. The issue of the
castrations gets discussed. We also learn of their various End-
  Time concerns. Even before Hale Bopp, they had been looking at
the red sunsets caused by wildfires as a Sign. We learn at one
point that the group had been improving financially near the
end, taking in an estimated $400,000/year.

In partial balance, we get an account of the Unarius group, who
are predicting a different sort of transformation. They expect
33 spaceships to land in 2001. One will be in the Bermuda
Triangle and the other 32 will arrive at the Ham, California
Landing Site that the group has constructed. They expect 1000
thousand teachers per ship will emerge and share their science
and solutions to our environmental and other problems. They are
already partly in doubt of the prophecy and have already
registered a loophole that if they don't land it will because we
are just not ready and too disorganized. One would think that
such things would ensure their landing. If we were organized,
why would we need their teachers? It is noted that Unarius is in
part Eastern philosophy and part of the longing for utopia. A
Christian looks at this religion and remarks there is a sucker
born every minute.

A third religious viewpoint fills in the final few minutes as
the beliefs of a Rev. Milton Nothdurft concerning Biblical UFOs
and the Star of Bethlehem are mentioned along with his concerns
about a shift of planets and a new way of life on Earth caused
by free energy. We are also in summary told that cults are
experiencing oneness with the universe. Heaven's Gate may have
been deadly, but others like Unarius are basically harmless and
we don't have to fear that suicidal religions are common. The
tone is generally neutral and never strident or ridiculing on
the part of the narrator. There is no effort to offer a
sceptical commentary and we seem to be presented with an
unstated effort at being understanding and tolerant of these
divergent faiths. It seems fairer than it needed to be and was
an honest effort at being informative with a good amount of
detail-work in the Heaven's Gate chronicle. Not a great
documentary, but good enough.

"Struck by Lightning" The Unexplained   A & E Home Video People
who are struck by lightning curiously often have a short period
of mystical bliss according to this documentary. However, they
also suffer disabling neurological disorders which oddly are
hard to document by medical testing. Pondering this, I added one
more doubt to my concerns over Persinger's idea that tectonic
lights generate mystical states in UFO experiencers. If
relevant, why aren't these UFO experiencers suffering a gamut of
neurological horrors like those seen here.

---------------------------------------------------------

LETTER

I am just writing you because I read your article/website about
the classical migraine and the UFO correlation. It is definitely
very interesting. I found your website because I was searching
for an answer to my dad's zigzag auras. I was shocked to find
out that it sounds as though he has been experiencing the
classical migraine (aura without migraine). Anyway, as I read on
about these people, who not only experienced the same auras as
my dad, they have also had an encounter with a UFO. This is very
interesting because my dad will never forget the cold winter
morning of 1965 in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada. At around 4:00am my
dad stepped outside on his way to work. As my dad was stepping
into his truck, something caught his eye. He looked up and saw
this beautiful circular object with circular coloured rings
hovering just below cloud level. He gazed at the beautiful
object for two to three minutes before it quickly disappeared
leaving a light vapour behind. At the age of twenty he obviously
could not believe his eyes.  Soon after this incident he became
weak and dizzy. He had these frequent dizzy spells for about two
years after the incident. Two or three years later, he started
seeing these zigzags usually in his right eye. They would start
small then gradually get bigger. He had many tests done such as
MRIs and CAT scans but nothing was found. His doctor told him
that he was a borderline epileptic and that he would not be able
to drive again. My dad did not believe the doctor that he was an
epileptic and began to take his problem into his own hands. He
stopped having anything that contained caffeine and noticed that
he got the zigzags much less. Fifteen years later he figured
that the caffeine may not be the answer to his problem and
started having caffeine again and started getting the zigzags
more often. He is now happy to know that he is most likely
experiencing a classical migraine after reading your article and
Oliver Sacks's book. There should definitely be more studies
done on the correlation of the migraine aura and UFO encounters.

Sarah, pocahontis917@netscape.net




--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk






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   Jul > Jul 3

                Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:42:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:18:01 -0400
Subject: Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Mortellaro



 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >Ok, hi everyone,

 >This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
 >student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
 >(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
 >is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

 ><snip>

 >>What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong about being
 >>skeptical? Why are people labeled "Skeptics" on this list and
 >>other lists as if they have some type of horrible disease?

Dear Ms Reason, List, EBK,

I think the word 'skeptic' is illused in this context. The word
'skeptibunky is a better fit, to those who are on the extreme
side of the issue. There is first the believer, who in the face
of reason and logic, cannot accept anything but the absolute
reality of this phenomena by virtue of their memory. I refer to
those of us who perceive the abduction experience.

Of course the opposite extreme is the "other closed mind," the one
which cannot accept even the possibility of the abduction or UFO
reality.

The skeptic on the other hand is one who may accept both as the
possible reality. Which describes me to an extent. But only so
far, as the reality of one's memory of such events as have been
ongoing for an entire life and by my family members as well, and
which predate Roswell, cannot easily be refuted.

Yet logic and reason always allows for the possibility of some
other, more earthly causitive factor(s). Question everything
should be the byword of all of us.

 >Well, I guess this is what happens when a word becomes hijacked
 >by a particular group of people to mean something other than
 >what it was originally supposed to mean.

My point exactly. I perceive Ms. Herbert's opinion to me more closely
related to a questioning mind. Nothing wrong with that.

 >I don't believe there's wrong with skepticism, if by skepticism
 >you mean a strong sense of discernment, which I assume is what
 >you mean. On the other hand though, not everyone who claims to
 >be a skeptic is necessarily a skeptic -- in the same way that
 >just because someone claims to be an honest purveyor of used
 >automobiles doesn't necessarily mean that's what they are.

 >In particular, I don't think there's anything particularly
 >skeptical or discerning about the misrepresentation or selective
 >representation of evidence, or about dishonest reporting of
 >facts, or about the sloppy and inaccurate application of
 >scientific principles.

In so far as our science will allow. An advanced society of
entities cannot be observed within the narrow confines of our
extant immature science. After all, there is so much we do not
know.

 >A little while ago I came upon a book in my university's library
 >called 'The UFO Verdict', which was written by someone who I
 >remember described himself at the time as a skeptic (I don't
 >know if he's still in business).

 >What I remember about the book is that in order to get at the
 >ten percent (or thereabouts) of actual content, one first had to
 >deconstruct about ninety percent of spin, attribution and
 >general hand-waving argument about the supposed unreliability of
 >the human visual system.

 >I find that sort of thing particularly irritating, because the
 >alleged systematic unreliability of human visual perception is
 >one of those academic folk-mythologies, which has been around
 >since the dawn of academic psychology without ever having had
 >any real scientific evidence to back it up. The human visual
 >system is subject to inaccuracies, just like any other
 >instrument, but if one has some understanding of how the system
 >works, it's relatively easy to predict the types of errors that
 >can occur.

An excellent point. The skeptibunky type will always attribute
movement, unusual movement, of objects to some obscure muscle
movement in the eye. Well, such exists, but such also is not the
final answer. Not by a long shot. Oh how I wish that for just
one time, they could stand inside my shoes. Then they'd know
what a drag it is to see them. And hear them.

Just as Venus and swamp gas is attributed to many sightings, the
skeptibunker cannot accept even the possibility of the reality
of UFO's without seeking some scientific explanation which, when
taken in the context of the observer, cannot possibly be. Allow
for the possibility of both Venus and a UFO and seek the truth
by doing something which the skeptic _can_ do and the
skeptibunker cannot.

Keep an open mind.

 >Now I don't know if it was outright dishonesty or simply shoddy
 >scholarship, but either way its irresponsible in the extreme and
 >people who do this have no business representing themselves as
 >skeptics, in my opinion. I do not know how anyone reading that
 >book would have been able to puzzle their way through all the BS
 >unless they already had some fairly detailed knowledge of the
 >human visual system.

 >I would like to say it was an exception but sadly, I don't
 >really believe it is, if the stuff I occasionally see from
 >CSICOP and the Skeptics' Society is anything to go on.

 >BTW, I wouldn't want to get into a long Phil Sci discussion
 >here, but I think the days of total skepticism went out with
 >Logical Positivism. Outright skepticism leads inevitably to
 >solipsism. Sooner or later everyone ends up having to compromise
 >their skepticism over something or other, whether they admit it
 >or not.

The theory, and it is just a theory, of solipsism, holds that
only self can know nothing but that which it can modify. The
self is everything. Indeed it is the only existent thing. If I
can recall my wonderfully uninteresting college sillyfossify.


Jim Mortellaro








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   Jul > Jul 3

               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:09:28 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:20:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:16:17 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >This whole tape discussion perplexes me! In the first place, as
 >Bob Durant's Roswell video reminded me, the symbols that Jesse
 >Marcel, Jr., saw were not on tape attached to anything but were
 >*engraved* on the inner surface (in the groove) of the I-beam.
 >Tape would serve no purpose there.

Technically, Marcel, Jr. recalled that the symbols were
_embossed_, if memory serves correctly, but the anti-tape
argument still holds.

I think it was Charles Moore who said that the novelty tape the
Mogul team was using tended to peel off after exposure to the
sun. Jeffrey, realizing that Marcel insisted no tape was
involved in the debris he saw, concluded that the "symbols" were
actually "bleed-through" reversals from the novelty tape (!)

Of course, Marcel does not recall balsa wood I-beams, as Mogul
used, but metallic beams. And there's a huge size discrepancy
between the designs he remembers (quarter of an inch to half an
inch) to the designs Moore remembers (3 inches).

See comparative illustrations:

http://mactonnies.com/ufos.html

 >Secondly, I agree with Mac that some record of the floral tape
 >used on Moguls should exist somewhere. It would be a very
 >meaningful research project for someone to determine who the
 >contractor was that provided it, and to contact the company that
 >produced it if it still exists, and/or to locate old catalogues
 >and find at least a photograph or drawing.

Absolutely.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies
http://mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html









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   Jul > Jul 3

               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:21:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Tonnies


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:04:39 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >All of this can be used to verify several 40 year old memories-
 >the same kind of memories that proponents have to depend upon.
 >But, unlike the memories of "memory foil", these memories can be
 >verified with the written record.

<snip>

The "memory foil" seems to be one anomalous characteristic that
most every witness on the pro-UFO side recalls. Whatever they
handled, it apparently had very strange "memory" properties,
which they describe in nearly identical terms.

Let's assume they're not all lying (although if you want to
assume Frankie Rowe is lying, feel free...) Isn't it logical
that the Mogul scientists would recall a similar material with
"memory" qualities?

I find it puzzling that Moore never mentions any strange foil
characteristics, while first-hand witnesses to the Foster ranch
site are quite explicit about them.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies
http://mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html








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   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: Request For Assistance - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:45:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:50:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Assistance - Myers


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:33:08 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Request For Assistance

 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:07:31 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Request For Assistance

 >>I'm looking for an issue of Contaco Ovni magazine that was
 >>published sometime in October 2001.  The issue was about the
 >>Jonathan Reed UFO hoax and was full color.  If anyone out there
 >>can get a copy, please privately e-mail me, I would greatly
 >>appreciate it.

 >You might want to try one of my best sources for Spanish related
 >UFO info, Daniel Mu=F1oz.

 >ovnimexico@ninallinares.com

 >Danny is a UFO UpDates List member, he may contact you on his
 >own if he gets to read this (or your original) post. I have
 >provided his contact address. If you don't have any success
 >through Daniel, get in touch with me privately, as I also have
 >other *contacts in Spain, Mexico and Puerto Rico that may prove
 >helpful.

 >(*Because they are not UpDates List members I cannot publish their
 >private e-mail addresses here.)

 >Good luck in your hunt amigo.

Hi John,

I seriously doubt that Munoz would help out with anything
considering this has to do with my investigation of the Reed UFO
Hoax.

Thanks for the tip though, appreciate it.

--Royce








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   Jul > Jul 3

                   Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:53:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Tonnies


 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:00:43 -0700
 >Subject: Human Logic/Alien Agenda

 >Hello All,

 >Some observations; time and time again I've noticed people
 >trying to explain the "alien agenda" with human logic. That is
 >people continue to theorize and make assumptions of the motives
 >and actions of "our visitors" based on "human scientific
 >principles."

 >One example of this is how we interpret our visitor's "method of
 >travel" based on what "we" know about time and space.

Hold it!

Who says we're dealing with a "they"? And who says "they"
travel? I agree that many arguments (pro and con) re. the UFO
phenomenon are anthrocentric, but it's far too easy to interpret
UFOs and their "occupants" along familiar ontological circuits.

I think UFOs can best be understood by their _effects_. And one
of those effects (if not the central effect) of the phenomenon
is the power to influence human belief.

I don't think we know that the ufonauts are a "they" yet.
Personally, I think the UFO phenomenon, with its mythical,
technological and existential (i.e., we are not alone)
connotations, behaves something like a behavioral conditioning
system, as noted by Jacques Vallee in "The Invisible College"
and "Dimensions."

For all we know our universe is "someone else's" screensaver or
A-life experiment, and UFOs are simply fragments of code
endlessly scrolling just beneath the veneer of perceivable
reality...

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies
http://mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html









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                   Re: Breakout of the Fictions - Bennett

From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:04:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:38:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout of the Fictions - Bennett


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:26:55 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

I thank John Rimmer for welcoming me to the List, and I am
pleased that my first innocent posting of Breakout of the
Fictions has now sprouted delta-mouths through the current list,
even down to a discussion of missing commas in ancient
documents, and you can=92t get more delta-mouthed than that: it
leads truly to an ever-widening penumbra of literary uncertainty
that is absolutely pure Borges.

But putting my astonishment aside, I ask John Rimmer where in
these ever-growing estuaries did I mention Britain?

I was not even talking about American wartime popular culture in
general =96 I was talking about what very small groups of high-
cerebral folk within the Manhattan Project might feel a thirst
for, and might well have sought out. Then as now, such cerebral
folk do not like, consume, or absorb popular culture as outlined
by John Rimmer and Greg Sandow.

This very =93fact=94 (as John Rimmer would call it) is the very
reason why (in case he had not noticed)  his Magonia magazine
(and a few more like it) exist. I say that through gritted teeth
since apparently the Editorial in the current edition of Magonia
refers to nothing else but my sins as a Believer as regards UFOs
as expressed by my book Looking for Orthon and my articles in
the Fortean Times. His last sentence reads:

=93Bennett is the real representative of the school of ufology as
literary criticism=94 In his last List posting, he also takes the
opportunity to warn Jerry Clark (as if such a man needed
protection!) against my subversive postmodern ideas using a turn
of phrase that sounds almost complimentary:

 >A warning to Jerry Clark, though; now you=92re really going to
 >see some post-modernist literary criticism!=94

Goodness me sister Jane, I do believe Cardinal Manning is on his
way to Rome!

My original point (now disappointingly lost by the equally
delta-mouthed heresiarchs of MJ-12 as well as John Rimmer) was
that a fully-developed picture of a kind of MJ-12 group was
written up as a story by Borges at exactly the same time as the
claimed MJ-12 group was being formed. I just feel that at times
we must leave the causal chains of our intellectual childhood
and consider a postmodern effect in operation =96 that there are
instead of Newton atoms banging into one another, things called
resonant metaphors that enable passage of information through
analogies and simulacra. Information does not need Euclidean
space in this respect. Long ago, Marshall McLuhan told us this =96
that information did not have a spatial point-to-point vector.
Rather like Rupert Sheldrake=92s monkeys on different islands, we
learn collectively and implicitly. Thus both Borges=92 story and
the simultaneous activity of MJ-12 were shadows that were
tracking one another. Thus =93Tl=F6n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius=94 is a
drama of matter and idea, synchronicity and political direction
most profoundly description of a new form of causation for our
own media-soaked society.

There now John, that was not too bad, was it?

All I am suggesting is that most of the arguments in these lists
when they get bogged down get bogged down on this hopelessly
mechanical idea of =93separating truth from fiction=94 which is
something from a old industrial railway age. In a media society
these laws no longer apply =96 we have deterministic causations
replaced by whether we like it or not, by virtuality. In other
words John we are no longer in a world where doctors cure,
policeman arrest criminals, scientists make discoveries and
writing to your MP changes things. I mean the moment of
postmodern doubt comes in a simple form: does anyone in the
world believe that Blair, Bush, and Bin Laden are truly real in
the old fashioned sense? Do people believe any long that if we
listen to either side, put together the things they say by
common sesne, weigh the balance, and the objective truth will
appear". As a society we are in crisis as regards such thoughts.
Do believe what sceintists say any longer?

As the recent collapse of mighty corporations in America has
proved beyond a doubt, our present Western society is run and
maintained by massive conspiratorial fantasies, succored by
corporate industry and technology in which mechanisms and
movement matter hardly at all. A slight change in Michael
Jackson=92s programme for a sample day in Entertainment State is
truly the butterfly=92s wing that changes things, not the banging
hammers and pounding pistons and chains of linked facts within
Victorian stationmaster minds. The world doesn=92t run by their
fob-watch time any more. Already top film actors run whole
economies, and already complete sections of society cluster
around Stars and Stories, not arm-smelling trades unions or bad
breath political parties of the steam age, and certainly not
satanic investment corporations.

Political systems and technological cultures all live and die by
virtue of the manner in which they receive and interpret
information. Magonian scepticism  will die if it remains in the
hard industrial age from whence it came. Now the atoms of Newton
are personalities, and Roswell and Adamski et al are star-stuff,
and that in an age of media is all that matters. That=92s why we
cannot run a railway or even after some 300 years of
development, we cannot  make a decent rifle for the British
Army. Postmodernism would answer that we can=92t do such things
because unconsciously we don=92t want to. Thus rifles and trains
(and much old-fashiones stuff like them) are not Stars any more.

Their advertising in time is dead. Hobbes=92 Leviathan is now a
screen full of consumer suggestions, like Plato=92s cave wall.

In other words John Rimmer=92s brand of scepticism is not right or
wrong, correct or incorrect, it is completely out of date.

I must of course ruefully admit that such postmodern views as
mine have got a bad reputation through the writing of certain
French academics.

Like many so-called =93field researchers=94 (no names, no pack-
drill), they know what they mean, they are good researchers, but
they can=92t write for toffee, and sceptics are right to pounce on
at least some of some postmodern works as quite unreadable. In
turn, many UFO books over the years have unfortunately fallen
into this category.

Some sound like old Polytech training manuals for leftish social
workers, and they are just about as valuable. The List is not
the place to advertise, but let it be said that a new book of
mine on Charles Fort (=93Politics of the Imagination=94 out on the
16th of this month, unfortunately some five weeks delayed by
some legal problems nothing to do with John Rimmer!) sees him as
the very first postmodern thinker.

This book in turn will no doubt annoy John Rimmer.

However postmodernism is not to be feared: the works of Barthes,
Pierre Bourdieu, and Jean Baudrillard are perfectly clear in
translation, and are recommended reading for those sceptics who
(like many a 19th century clergyman), are having Doubts.

The recent work of Stephen Wolfram =93A New Kind of Science=94 (a
best seller) is a convincing example of a scientist and
mathematician who is a postmodernist, anomaly-sympathetic, and
who now has demonstrated convincingly that physical structure
consist of patterns of interacting information-fields, just like
the morphic resonance ideas of Sheldrake.

You had better get on to all this John, otherwise you will sound
like the drunk at the end of the bar forever complaining about
the trains running late and the rifles not firing properly. Your
trade, calling and profession will just have to be up-dated I am
afraid.

I leave all good List folk to go to bed with the edifying
thought over their whisky and cocoa what postmodern scepticism
will look and sound like. Let them try this, and as a
televisionless family, I can assure them it is a whole lot
better than the Simpsons.

Colin









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   Jul > Jul 4

                           Roswell Festival - 2002

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 05:08:24 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 07:59:43 -0400
Subject: Roswell Festival - 2002


Source: AP via Ventura County Star (California),

http://www.staronline.com/vcs/national/article/0,1375,VCS_123_
1244406,00.html

Stig

***

New Mexico town spaces out this week

July 3, 2002

**

ROSWELL, N.M. -- Roswell will be populated by creatures from
outer space -- or at least those dressed up like them -- for the
city's fifth annual UFO Festival this week.

The festival, which runs Thursday through Sunday, celebrates the
purported 1947 crash-landing of an alien spacecraft on a Roswell
farm.

A stroll down Main Street of this usually quiet town could open
the visitor to a whole new world.

The International UFO Museum and Research Center will hold
lectures and book signings on all three days of the festival.
Highlights will include a talk by Stanton Friedman, an author
and nuclear physicist who was one of the first to investigate
the 1947 incident in the late '70s.

Visitors can stock up on bright green alien memorabilia, alien
and space print clothing, posters, "artifacts" and books at the
Alien Market Trade Show. A walk-though black-light space art
show also will be on display.

Others can take part in an alien costume contest on Saturday.

Runners will also compete on Saturday in a 5- and 10-K event
called the Alien Chase.

Musical entertainment including Chris Daniels and the Kings will
perform throughout the festival. Dee Wallace Stone, who played
the mother in the 1982 film "E.T. the Extra Terrestrial," will
sign autographs.

-- The Associated Press

On the Net: UFO Festival Web site: www.uforoswell.com

**

2001 =A9 The E.W. Scripps Co.








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                       Fantasy Prone Personality Types

From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:26:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:17:28 -0400
Subject: Fantasy Prone Personality Types


Hi EBK and List,


Script from a recent ABC (Australia) TV program.

"Health Dimensions"
Tuesday July 2, 2002, 6.30pm

http://www.abc.net.au/dimensions/dimensions_health/Transcripts/s597293.htm

Episode 1
Parapsychology

As soon as you mention aliens and the paranormal you divide
people into believers and non-believers. But what do health
professionals do when someone comes to them, obviously mentally
distressed about an unexplainable event? They refer people to a
parapsychologist. Parapsychology is a legitimate, albeit fringe,
part of psychology.

For more information on this story please contact:-
Peter Khoury
0412 649 428

Shelly Horton, Reporter: As soon as you mention aliens and the
paranormal you divide people into believers and non-believers.

<snip>

Shelly Horton: As well as treating abductees parapsychologists
are also studying their experiences hoping to logically explain
what's happened.

Researchers at the University of Adelaide found most abductees
have Fantasy Prone Personality types.

Keith Basterfield: Someone who comes forward with these claims
is probably a person who has had a long-standing interest in the
paranormal and therefore believes in it more than the average
person, has had through their lifetime episodes of waking
paralysed during the night and associated hallucinations of
sounds, touch, taste, smell or in fact vision of something in
the rooms and has, over time, as our culture has seeped in the
idea of extraterrestrials, come to put all those things together
in their mind.

<snip>

John Auchettl
PRA - Director

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2002 - 41 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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   Jul > Jul 4

                   Re: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:38:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:19:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:23:52 -0400
 >Subject: Argentina: SENASA Explanation Found "Unconvincing"


 >SOURCE: La Voz del Interior (Cordoba, Argentina)
 >DATE: Wednesday, July 3, 2002

 >SENASA Explanation Found Unconvincing in R=EDo Cuarto

 >R=EDo Cuarto. Researchers at the Universidad Nacional De Rio
 >Cuarto reiterated yesterday that the calf found mutilated
 >yesterday in Berrotar=E1n presented "clean incisions" in its hide,
 >thus discarding any attacks by predators.

 >They admitted in this case that "in principle, the conclusions
 >applied by SENASA cannot be applied," referring to the
 >University of Tandil's report which fingered the red-muzzled
 >mouse (oxymycterus rufus) as the principal culprit in the cattle
 >mutilations.

<snip>

 >Without wanting to dispute SENASA's report, Polop limited
 >himself to saying that in the globality of cases registered in
 >he country there could be different cases for the mutilations.
 >Polop did address, however, the subject of the sheer number of
 >rodents which would have been needed to produce the lesions
 >found on the cows and rejected the possibility that these mice
 >could produce clean incisions in the hides of other animals to
 >eed on them. "The oxymycterus has chisel-shaped teeth, and it
 >is impossible for that type of dentition to produce clean cuts
 >on animal hides. It's bite is similar to any mouse chewing
 >through would, which would never be mistaken for a surgical
 >implement," he defined.

Furthermore, mice and rodents tend to poop when and where they
eat, so a lack of mouse droppings would also be evidence against
mice.








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   Jul > Jul 4

              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:49:56 -500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:21:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:04:39 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >The "memory foil" seems to be one anomalous characteristic that
 >most every witness on the pro-UFO side recalls. Whatever they
 >handled, it apparently had very strange "memory" properties,
 >which they describe in nearly identical terms.

 >Let's assume they're not all lying

I think that for at least some of the witnesses, they are not
actually "lying". That is not say that their version is correct,
but that their memories are not perfect. One can have their
memories distorted by any number of reasons and influences.

 >(although if you want to
 >assume Frankie Rowe is lying, feel free...)

Already been there <gr>

 >Isn't it logical
 >that the Mogul scientists would recall a similar material with
 >"memory" qualities?

If they did have such a material, they _certainly_ would have
remembered it.

 >I find it puzzling that Moore never mentions any strange foil
 >characteristics, while first-hand witnesses to the Foster ranch
 >site are quite explicit about them.

The answer to your question can be best answered by the Ft Worth
photos, and in particular the photos of Jessie Marcel. Marcel
identified the material he was holding as part of the debris he
found. Yet the foil he is displaying is clearly wrinkled, torn,
and creased- not what you might expect from "memory foil".

There is also the testimony from the only two individuals who
saw the debris 'in situ' - Bessie and Mac Brazel. Neither
recalled any special qualities to the foil, save that it was
backed by some fabric. Sheriden Cavitt is another who did not
observe anything special about the foil.

As to why other witnesses testify to 'memory foil'? That can
only fall under the catagory of speculation.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                        freedominfo.org Is Now Online

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:08:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:26:58 -0400
Subject: freedominfo.org Is Now Online


From: jopa201@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:05:02 EDT
Subject: freedominfo.org is now online
To: overtci@cavtel.net

From: NSARCHIVE <mevans@GWU.EDU>
To: NSARCHIVE@HERMES.GWU.EDU
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:59:05 -0400
Subject: Update: freedominfo.org is now online

National Security Archive Update, July 2, 2002

*freedominfo.org is now online*

http://www.freedominfo.org


Washington, D.C., 2 July 2002 - freedominfo.org, a new website
that describes best practices, consolidates lessons learned,
explains campaign strategies and tactics, and links the efforts
of freedom of information advocates around the world, is now
online.

Intended to be a one-stop portal that links freedom of
information movements as they struggle for greater openness,
freedominfo.org's first release features a global survey of
access to information in 45 countries.

The survey, by David Banisar of Privacy International,
summarizes freedom of information laws in each country and
provides links to the text of these laws and other relevant
sites.

Beginning this month, freedominfo.org will also feature a
regular column called IFTI Watch, which will monitor the
transparency (or opacity, as the case may be) of international
financial and trade institutions. In his first column,
Washington, D.C.-based journalist Toby McIntosh reports on an
experiment in openness that the World Bank is planning and new
disclosure policies that will allow speedier public access to
documents of the World Trade Organization.

freedominfo.org also contains reports and analyses as well as
links to other freedom of information sites around the world.

In the last decade, 26 countries enacted formal statutes
guaranteeing their citizens' right of access to government
information. Elsewhere, even without legal guarantees, citizens
are asserting their right to know. Throughout the world,
freedom-of-information movements are changing the definition of
democratic governance.

This site hopes to build a virtual network in which citizens'
groups can tap legal experts and veteran campaigners. It will
provide information on how freedom of information laws can be
implemented and analyses of how various legal provisions have
worked in practice.

The National Security Archive, based in George Washington
University in Washington, D.C., acts as the secretariat of the
freedominfo.org.

Follow the link below to view the new Web site:

http://www.freedominfo.org

________________________________________________________________

THE NATIONAL SECURITY ARCHIVE is an independent non-governmental
research institute and library located at The George Washington
University in Washington, D.C. The Archive collects and
publishes declassified documents acquired through the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA). A tax-exempt public charity, the Archive
receives no U.S. government funding; its budget is supported by
publication royalties and donations from foundations and
individuals.
________________________________________________________________

PRIVACY NOTICE
The National Security Archive does not and will never share the
names or e-mail addresses of its subscribers with any other
organization. Once a year, we will write you and ask for your
financial support. We may also ask you for your ideas for
Freedom of Information requests, documentation projects, or
other issues that the Archive should take on. We would welcome
your input, and any information you care to share with us about
your special interests. But we do not sell or rent any
information about subscribers to any other party.
________________________________________________________________








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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:08:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:31:28 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert

 >>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >>Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>With so many years having past, younger skeptics
 >>may not have ever seen NICAP's original rebuttal to the
 >>Condon Study. It was taken from The UFO Investigator,
 >>January 1969, Vol. IV, Special Edition. I happened to
 >>come across it as I was researching something else.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm


 ><snip>

 >Hi, Jerry:

 >If one is not a skeptic, what are you? A "believer"? "Pro-
 >UFO"? How can one remain objective if not at least
 >somewhat skeptical about anything one studies?

 >You addressed your post to the "Skeptics" reading this
 >List and I thought, "I'm skeptical at times about many
 >things so does that make me a "skeptic"? Is this post
 >addressed to me?" (Had the subject been "To Young
 >Skeptics", it would have ruled me out immediately. ;>)

 >I was once a believer. I was once pro-UFO. But luckily I
 >returned to my roots as a researcher. As a researcher, I
 >cannot believe anything for or against UFO's, aliens, etc.
 >To believe either way is to blind myself to any truths that
 >may be contrary to what I believe. If I cannot see truth,
 >should I stumble upon it, how will I ever find it?

 >A believer is one who believes he or she has found the
 >truth. A skeptic is one who doubts, one who has not
 >found the truth.When one believes, he or she does not
 >require evidence to convince them - they already have all
 >the evidence they need. When one is skeptical, he or
 >she is seeking more evidence as they are not yet
 >convinced, they do not believe.

 >What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong
 >about being skeptical? Why are people labeled
 >"Skeptics" on this list and other lists as if they have
 >some type of horrible disease?

 >Ufology is not a religion, it is a science wannabe. One
 >does not have to believe in UFO's or be pro-UFO to study
 >these anomalies. In fact, it is wiser to suspend belief
 >altogether if truth is your objective.

 >I don't care what's in style these days, I'm a skeptic and
 >proud of it!


Hi Amy,

First of all, obviously, there appears to be a lot of
sensitivity out there concerning the information I posted
concerning NICAP/Condon. I hope it is possible for people to get
past the strong emotions that it obviously engendered to really
read and comprehend the information therein and perhaps discuss
it rationally.

I'll let someone else respond more fully to the "science
wannabe" comment, but the reason we are in the state we're in
today in that regard is clearly and completely delineated on my
web site. A good part of that reason is in no small part due to
the pronouncements of Edward Condon back in 1966 which made it
virtually impossible for mainstream scientists to examine the
accumulated data further with any degree of respect. (Notice I
didn't say the pronouncements of the Condon Committee or
Colorado Study, and for good reason.) If you go to the following
link and read a little bit, you'll discover those two things are
not the same.)

http://www.cohenufo.org/topicsaddr.html#condtopc

Incidentally, if it wasn't for those "science wannabes" (and
some of them are a lot more than that) who was left to try their
best to keep studying a phenomenon that refused to go away?
Since Condon stated "further extensive study of UFOs probably
cannot be justified in the expectation that science will be
advanced thereby", exactly who was supposed to be funded to do
any further research after that?

Incidentally, other than posting NICAP's reaction to the Condon
Study, where do you see any words in my post that asked you or
anyone else not to be a skeptic? You read that into it yourself.
What you may not realize, perhaps from some of my posts and from
my web site, if you've had a chance to look at it, is that
believe it or not, I myself am a skeptic regarding each UFO
report I see. Am I a believer that UFOs are something not
created by our present technology and may possibly be ET in
origin? Absolutely, but my own experiences and research have led
me to that conclusion. Do I believe every case is real . . .
absolutely not. There are hoaxes, etc. out there which totally
infuriate me. I absolutely do not want to be a person that
blindly supports any of those, and you can believe me when I
say, I am as happy as anyone to see any perpetrators of same
humiliated and vanquished. They are a tremendous source of
frustration to all serious researchers.

The real crime is they are causing a vast amount of wasted
effort for the rest of us who are making truly honest attempts
to get at the root of the actual UFO phenomena. Those misguided
hoaxers muddy the waters so badly that it has made it incredibly
difficult for anyone to be able to see through their
shennanigans to the core of something which is already super-
subtle, and what I believe is made purposely elusive by its true
creators. (Of course you do not have to agree with me on this,
but I think I've done a pretty decent job of supporting this
view on my web site.) I have spent 35 years researching this and
I've put some of that solid research on my web site. You have to
read that first and _discuss it_ before we can say exactly how
solid (or not) the "proof" is for my hypothesis.

Back to my NICAP/Condon post:

Basically, what I posted to UpDates regarding NICAP and Condon
was intended for anyone who hadn't seen that specific piece of
information. Most people out there today do not have access to
that exact piece of data I posted, especially "younger"
skeptics, but perhaps some "older" ones as well. I hadn't seen
it in my searches on the net, and I'm pretty decent at
searching. I just happen to have a bunch of those old journals.
... You might ask "why do you have them in the first place?".

Why indeed. The answer to that is that I personally stared one
of those suckers in the face at fairly point blank range,
helicopter height (except it wasn't a helicopter, or a
derigible/blimp, balloon, model anything . . it was way too big)
. . it was a definite oval shaped "craft" without wings or a
tail, moving so slowly it should have fallen from the sky. At
times it had a falling leaf motion and rotating lights around
its rim but it definitely wasn't a rotating sign on a blimp. It
was low enough that I should have been able to read the sign if
it was. It was just lights going around. When it came in from
the south, I first thought it was a plane with its engines
sparking. I only glanced at it at that point but I don't
remember seeing any lights rotate. (I may not have looked long
enough... I was taking out the garbage.) It basically stopped
almost over my house and moved into several different "hovering"
positions. I looked at it for a minimum of a good two to four
minutes (extremely conservative estimate), got a really good
look at it, asked myself a number of questions about it and it
failed all logical resolution, cupped my hands behind my ears
(I'm a musician) and heard virtually nothing from something that
should have been making a hell of a lot of noise, especially to
my ears. I can hear motors on blimps etc.10-20 times that
distance with no problem. An jet that is a speck in the sky, in
the upper cirrus clouds, whatever... I can hear it. This wasn't
way up there, it was close. I got my wife to come out and look
at it with me and she couldn't identify it, eventually went up
the block to my mother's house and got her to come out and look
at it but it had by then moved off into the distance in a
westerly direction towards the next town and it was a little too
far in the distance for her to really lock on to it other than
seeing the rotating lights.

I basically had my mind totally blown by something I've never
seen since, except for the time a month later when the same damn
thing trailed me out to a job I was playing in Port Washington.
I never wrote this on my site. Since I was in the car by myself
that night (no missing time & got to my job on time), I have
since disgarded it from my research, but unfortunately not
completely from my memory. It scared the @#$%^&* out of me. I
couldn't even tell anyone about it when I got into my job. They
would have thought I was crazy. You wouldn't believe how I felt
or what was going through my head that entire night. That was
November/December 1967. But, these are objective things and
personal to me. I am not attempting to convince you of my
sighting, just explaining where I'm coming from.

 From my point of view, everyone that wasn't there with me at
those two moments in time is a skeptic to me. They have to be
because they weren't there with me to witness what I saw. I
fully understand that it cannot be any other way and I respect
other people's skepticism. I wouldn't react any differently if I
were you.

I was in the Air Force band for four years just prior to this
experience and had flown around on various type planes,
performing at many Air Force bases all over the country, about
90 trips, 1-8 days each. Therefore I was at least familiar with
various type planes from all the bases I played at; wings,
tails, helicopter rotors, jet engines, rocket engines, B-52's,
etc. ... but, in order to fly, they all make noise. No sound and
staying up floating just didn't (doesn't?) exist; certainly not
back then. My personal sightings started me collecting every
article I could about UFOs and, what can probably be termed, a
obsessive cross-referencing of facts regarding them that went on
for years. I was desperately trying to prove what I had seen so
I might be able to talk about it one day. Betty and Barney Hill
were an on/off topic back then and my sighting made me
personally realize it was not impossible that they _might_ be
telling the truth.

So, if I use the word "skeptic", you have to understand where
I'm coming from. There's not even one small piece of me that was
in any way truly skeptical about what I saw by my home. If there
was the slightest doubt, I would not be sitting here writing
this today and my web site would not exist . . . and that site
is something unique if one examines it closely. (Thank you
Alfred)

My web site:

The majority of the cases on my web site are thoroughly
researched and discussed; some by people that were or are on
this mail list. Discussions with Brad Sparks (FOIA) docs, Paul
Devereux (earthlights), Jan Aldrich (Proj. 1947) and military
cases. I quizzed a lot of people and those discussions are all
there for anyone to see, thoroughly footnoted in hyper-text,
fully-indexed, book form. I examined various skeptics reasoning
for dismissing certain cases and found them wanting. It's all
there. What I've said to skeptics is "break these cases." They
knew it, but they didn't respond. I'm still waiting. It's been
about six years. One skeptic has refused to speak to me. A good
portion of my site was a refutation of one of his essays.

I'd certainly be interested in your views on some of the cases
on my site. You are certainly more than welcome to comment. I
would love to discuss them, expecially the relationships between
Iran/Tehran 1976, Belgium 1989/90 and Illinois 2000; also my
three cases from 1957. It's been burning in my gut for 35 years
to be able to do this and I am prepared to discuss everything
there.


Thanks for taking an interest and sorry if I got you upset,

Jerry Cohen

http://www.cohenufo.org/

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -









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               Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 06:48:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:35:14 -0400
Subject: Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There'


Source: 'Out There' Television,

http://www.crosswynd.com/outthere.htm

Stig

***

OUT THERE TELEVISION

Live Television Exploring The Weird, The Wild And The
Unexplained - With Kate & Richard Mucci

OUT THERE TV UPCOMING SHOWS

<snip>

AUGUST 11, 2002 - Special Guest Phillip Corso Jr. Phillip, son
of Colonel Philip Corso, Sr. (Author, The Day After Roswell)
Tonight, Phillip Jr. breaks his silence and has agreed to talk
to OUT THERE about developments concerning his fathers book,
along with the reality of the 1947 Roswell UFO crash, and the
probability of additional extra terrestrial contract.  Phillip
Corso's appearance tonight is an OUT THERE television
exclusive! Phillip does not normally do interviews of any kind,
and we are honored to have him as our guest tonight.

**

OUT THERE TV - NOW PLAYING ON...

KYRK TV Channel 35 Las Vegas, Nevada Thursdays 6:30 pm to 8:00
pm

KPVM TV Channel 41 Pahrump, Nevada Sundays 8:30 pm to 10:00 pm
and Tuesdays 10:30 pm to 12:00 midnight

KLHU TV Channel 45 Lake Havasu City, Arizona Saturdays and
Sundays 7:00 pm to 8:30 pm

Coming soon to Albuquerque, Santa Fe, Modesto, and Tucson!

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              Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:50:30 -500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:51:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:16:17 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

Richard, List and Readers,

 >This whole tape discussion perplexes me! In the first place, as
 >Bob Durant's Roswell video reminded me, the symbols that Jesse
 >Marcel, Jr., saw were not on tape attached to anything but were
 >*engraved* on the inner surface (in the groove) of the I-beam.
 >Tape would serve no purpose there.

Alas, Jesse hasn't been totally consistent on this subject. He
has stated something different from this on occasion. Nothing
major, but still...

"And the hieroglyphics were embossed on that. So they stood out
from that". [Interview given by Dr Jesse Marcel, June 1994]

"the ones I saw were not raised above the level of the beam".
(Dr. Marcel on1995 UK Channel 4 "Incident at Roswell" )

Dr. Marcel originally claimed the symbols were "actually an
embossed part of the metal itself", ['Unsolved Mysteries'
documentary]

Then there was his father, who stated, "they looked like they
were painted on". ['The Roswell Incident', by Berlitz and Moore,
p 68]

Regarding the comment that they were part of the beam and not of
the tape:

"In one of my conversations with Newton, quite by chance, a new
and important revelation came to light. He was describing the
color of the symbols on one of the balsa sticks and mentioned
how it was faint and had somewhat of a mottled appearance
because of "the way that the dye had bled through onto the
surface of the stick." ('Roswell - Anatomy of a Myth' MUFON
Journal, June 1997)

 >Secondly, I agree with Mac that some record of the floral tape
 >used on Moguls should exist somewhere. It would be a very
 >meaningful research project for someone to determine who the
 >contractor was that provided it, and to contact the company that
 >produced it if it still exists, and/or to locate old catalogues
 >and find at least a photograph or drawing.

 >Please don't keep us in suspense;
 >what did he find? We can't all read every book on the subject.

(...Gasp!) You haven't read Moore' book? Run, don't walk to your
nearest 'puter and order it post-haste. Good read, great stuff.

"From our recent reconstruction of events, it appears that, for
the 1947 Alamogordo expedition, Peoples located a supply of some
ML-307 radar targets that were left over from the developmental
effort at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1944 and 1945. As best we
have been able to determine during my recent discussions with
Fletcher and with one of his project officers, Edwin J. Istvan,
these targets were preproduction prototypes, fabricated by a
vendor in the Manhattan garment district. Istvan has stated
that the wind loads on the early balloon-borne ML-307 targets
caused the first commercial models in 1944 to break up in flight
so design modifications were necessary. These changes for the B
model of the targets included and adhesive tape reinforcement of
the laminated aluminum foil paper panel attachment to the balsa-
  wood stiffeners. The manufacturer apparently used some tape
that he had in stock; this tape which was not used in the later
production models, had a distinctive pinkish purple pattern of
an abstract flowerlike design printed on its backing. Several
of the NYU Balloon Group members still remember these colored
markings on the targets we used in Alamogordo in 1947. The
significance of the markings puzzled us each time that we
prepared a target for flight."

UFO Crash at Roswell: The Genesis of a Modern Myth. Benson
Saler, Charles A. Ziegler, and Charles B. Moore. Smithsonian
Institution Press. Washington and London. 1997


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                      Object(s) In Coos Bay Oregon Sky

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:05:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:56:38 -0400
Subject: Object(s) In Coos Bay Oregon Sky


Hello All,

My wife and I were returing home from the local Indian Casino's
'3rd of July' fireworks (don't ask) as we were driving out at
10:38 PM. I noticed a bright light moving in the sky thinking it
a landing light from the local Airport (Coos County) I didn't
pay too much attention, more to the guy in the van who was about
to centerpunch my old but nice, Taurus.

There was something odd about that light, flying sideways, for
one, and as we got out on the highway, I thought it was venus,
which was setting on the ocean, about then. No, when I got home,
about 10 minutes later, I took my anchient scnhauzer, Tiger, for
a quick walkie, and above, at about 80 or so degrees, to the
Eastern horizon, there was that blasted light, bright as Venus,
however behaving in a non, planetary or satillite, manner -
  pelicans and swamp gas too, don't simply make a sweeping curve,
brighten then, dim, and doing this silently. it heads in a
southwesterly direction. on a curving path.

There is always a decision to make at times like this: Do I
watch the thing, or do I alert the neighbor kids who are having
a bit of a block party - or, do it get the field glasses and my
dear wife who has the best set of eyes I have ever been around
(two exceptions - her Pop and my Grandfather McCoy) she is also
familar with the night sky as I am.

It, what ever it was, is now bright again, as in a moving Venus,
it then dims, to a bright blue pinpoint. Oh, it has now changed
direction and it is heading North, up the Oregon coast. My wife
notes that there may be two of them, I see only the one through
the glasses. It disappears in the glare of the sawmill and paper
mill to the north.

I would say the speed was comparable to a jet fighter, moving
swiftly at altitude, but not so swift that it is gone in
seconds, there were no position lights, either.

It was about a year ago I saw a triangle, but this wasn't as,
well, soild. Note: I am not convinced there isn't a prosaic - as
in US military solution to the triangles. However lights in the
sky are just not soild.

Any way, there you have it a flying whatisit, I have not a clue
to what it is.


GT McCoy

[Its past this hobbit's bedtime (my wife's opinion of me)]








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               Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:17:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:59:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:18:29 -0500
 >Subject: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Debates

 >He was insulting, officious, arrogant, and authoritarian. He was
 >rude, disingenuous, obfuscating, and trite.

OK, so that's his good points .... <g>

Seriously, I wish I could have heard it, but it was in the wee small
hours over here in the UK.


--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/






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                        Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:35:05 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:29:04 -0400
Subject: Re:  News Of Jim, Sr. - Acres


 >From: James Mortellaro Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:21:00 EDT
 >Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr.

<snip>

 >I would respectfully call your attention to this interesting
 >phenomena, as it does make me wonder why it is thus.

 >James Mortellaro
 >The Greater

Hello Sir! Glad to hear you have kept the Reaper waiting! :)

I listened to your son's Rense interview and I was both
fascinated & horrified at the same time!

I'm curious to know if you recall any similar experiences
throughout your life?








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                    Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:56:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:31:24 -0400
Subject: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

<snip>

 >Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
 >Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
 >it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
 >direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

<snip>

Larry:

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will attempt to
find out for you this weekend.

Thanks,

==JJS==







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              Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange -

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 04:56:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:36:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange -

 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:18:29 -0500
 >Subject: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Debates

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The 'Strange Days... Indeed' interview with Joe Nickell of
 >>CSICOP and Stanton T. Friedman is available at:

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/

 >>click the Play button in the details cell of program 195 to
 >>grab the .ra file

 >Foolish me! I would have thought that Dr. Joe Nickell (the
 >double "ll" says it all.) had a snowball's chance of coming off
 >with at _least_ a smidgen of the style, intelligence, and grace
 >shown by one Dr. Krauss on the Rense show, March 30th, 1999 when
 >Dr. Krauss (a better scientist than Dr. Nickell and with a more
 >germane PhD...) was solidly drubbed by Mr. Friedman in a similar
 >debate (but on a longer show) for even greater stakes.

<snip>

I'd have been happy if someone asked Dr. Nickell to explain why
human witnesses don't constitute evidence in regard to UFOs,
when in every other pursuit, including science, they are
regarded as powerful evidence.


Eleanor White








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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:41:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:42:31 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Reason


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:19:04 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

Hi Bob, and List

 >Hi, Cathy, Welcome:

Thank you :-)

 >Your expertise may help with a discussion that has appeared on
 >occasion on this, and related Lists: Autokinetic Motion of the
 >muscles of the eye. This is a phenomenon which is uncannily
 >similar to the famous "falling leaf effect" noted for many since
 >nighttime UFOs.

Well I don't think it requires all that much expertise, but yes,
I know about autokinetic movement. I wouldn't describe it as a
"falling leaf effect" however, more a sort of random
oscillation, rather like a "chaotic pendulum" trajectory. It may
be that people can be induced to see this as a fallng leaf
effect if they're primed or cued to do so, because visual cortex
is primarily a pattern-matching and -extraction system and it's
fairly easy to extract patterns from random noise.

A couple of points to bear in mind here -- the visual system
derives much or most of its information from movement (or "optic
flow" to use the jargon). So the system compensates for
autokinetic movement by ignoring perfectly correlated movement
which affects most of the visual field. Autokinesis happens when
this process breaks down, which occurs when there aren't enough
reference points in the visual field to extract a stationary
background. In practice, this means at night and when there are
no nearby fixed reference points, or when the reference points
are moving in an uncorrelated manner, or when the reference
points fall on part of the retina which has low spatial
resolution -- and that again is more likely to happen at night.

True autokinesis is really a pure laboratory phenomenon and is
surpsisingly difficult to produce. You need a perfectly blacked
out environment and absolutely no reference points -- even the
merest chink of light and the phenomenon breaks down. The kind
of autokinetic effect one sometimes sees in the night sky is
really a much less spectacular thing, the movement rarely being
much greater than a degree of arc, if that.

 >It seems that this phenomenon is particularly susceptible to
 >suggestion. In other words, when it is mentioned while viewing
 >an appropriate stimulus, bright star or planet, small light in a
 >darkened planetarium, most people have no trouble seeing it. In
 >25 years of teaching an adult observational astronomy course, I
 >have never had a group which couldn't see it.

Yes, a planetarium is a particularly good environment for
autokinesis because it is almost completely blacked out -- in
fact a planetarium can be darker than the real night sky because
of the lack of airglow. Also, people in a planetarium will tend
to be looking upwards which further disorients them with respect
to those reference points which are available. This is about as
close to a laboratory environment as most people probably get.

 >On the other hand, there seems to be a curious lack of ability
 >to notice this happening, even after careful prompting, among
 >some subscribers to this list.

I think it's safe to say that there are quite profound
individual differences in the extent to which different
observers can see autokinesis.  The brain tends to work on the
principle that it sees what it expects to see, and in practice
that means it sees what it is used to seeing. I very rarely see
autokinesis in the night sky, for example, because I know that
stars don't move, so they don't.

 >Have any thoughts or info?

I once gave some of my students at City University an exercise,
involving a UFO description from Arthur Shuttlewood's "UFO Magic
in Motion" which seems to me a very good example of autokinetic
perception of stars. It exemplifies many of the core elements -
  - reported lights will tend to be at quite high elevation, so
they will probably remain visible for several hours unless cloud
cover intervenes. Stimuli are almost invariably point-sources,
though they may be perceived as variously shaped and emitting
rays or jets, due to optical defects in the eye. If multiple
lights are observed, their movements will not be correlated with
each other. Lights may appear approach some fixed reference
point, but will never reach it or cross it. The range or extent
of the movement will tend to be proportional to the distance to
the nearest fixed reference point, etc.


Cathy Reason








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                        Re: Birnes on Corso? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:52:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:44:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso? - Kaeser


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:10:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Birnes on Corso?

<snip>

 >Hi Dick, Steve, All,

 >If Corso was "promoting" his involvement in the Roswell case he
 >certainly didn't have to expend much personal effort!

 >I attended the 50th anniversary of the Roswell "crash" with Budd
 >Hopkins. (1997) During breakfast (on the second day) we saw
 >Corso come ambling into the hotel dining room by his lonesome.
 >He seated himself at a table, ordered, and he lowered his head
 >as he began to read a newspaper. Budd was the first one to
 >notice him. "Hey, that's Phillip Corso, I'm going to go over for
 >a second to say hello." Off he went. He spent about 5 minutes
 >commiserating with Corso and then he returned to our table.

 >Shortly after Budd returned I noticed two others (unknown)
 >approach Corso's table and seat themselves. After a few minutes,
 >they left and another small group (three people I think)
 >approached Corso and the same scenario played itself out. They
 >sat for a few minutes and then left. This went on throughout
 >breakfast. The man must have spoken to at least a dozen
 >individuals in the short span of an hour. And that was just
 >breakfast!

 >If Corso was trying to interject himself into the Roswell
 >business he didn't have to go too far to do it. From what I saw,
 >everybody was coming to him! Apparently, all he had to do to
 >attach himself to the Roswell case was to 'show up.' :)

 >Maybe you'll get more feedback from others who attended.


John, Richard, et al-

In 1997 Corso had already inserted himself into the Roswell
story with the publication that year of this book. I believe I
also have a copy of the video tape that Richard mentioned, which
was recorded in a hotel room late one evening with about a dozen
people in attendance and lasted for about an hour. For those who
followed the Roswell story, Corso's attendance at the 50th
Anniversary Celebration was well known and it wasn't difficult
for him to attract a crowd.

I was referring to his visit to Roswell several years earlier.
As I recall (and I believe some on this list were there), Corso
had come to Roswell and had contacted numerous researchers
advising them that he would speak about the truth of the Roswell
incident, but as it turned out he never really gave up much
information and he refused to let anyone examine a file folder
full of papers that he was carrying. I believe that he was
preparing to write a book on the subject, and was trying gain
some interest. Those who attended weren't very impressed and
nothing ever came of the original visit. But it showed that
Corso was interested in telling this story a few years before he
released the book, and I'm not sure how this fits into his co-
author's recollection of their book's development.

I would add that for about a year after the death Col. Corso,
his son was attempting to gather interest in a follow up book on
the subject. But, as some have noted, his son isn't really able
to fill in the gaps in this story and the entire project has
become shelved.


Steve








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              Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:18:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:46:14 -0400
Subject: Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:15 -0400
 >Subject: International Petition to UN Progress Report


 >Hello All,

 >The response to the International Petition to the UN is turning
 >out to be a monument to apathy. After four months (one third of
 >the time allotted for gathering signatures) only 1141 have
 >signed the petition to date. At that rate, it looks like a
 >petition consisting of 3400 signatures (if current trends
 >continue) will be the end result.

John, List, All -

Maybe we just remember how well the Roswell Declaration worked
back five years ago. A worldwide effort to gather signatures
with petitions all over the place. Thirty thousand people
climbed on board for the petition to be delivered to the White
House in July, 1997, and suddenly Kent Jeffrey decides that he
no longer believes that there was a UFO crash at Roswell, that
he must deliver the petitions because he promised and included a
cover letter that said, basically, well I don't believe this any
more but there are other sightings and I wish you'd tell us
about it... oh, and I have more petitions at home. I don't think
all of them were ever delivered.

 From another perspective, even thirty-thousand signatures, even
if they had all been from Americans, who could vote (but
probably didn't) in the national elections, wouldn't make much
of a ripple. Yeah, in a local race, or even a race for a
congressional or senate seat, thirty thousand might tip the
balance, but in the larger races, it doesn't matter. And, then
many of those signing from around the world can't vote in an
American election, so who really cares?

I'm not suggesting this as my position, only pointing out what
might be part of the problem.


KRandle








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               Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:42:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:58:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange


 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:17:00 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Debates

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:18:29 -0500
 >>Subject: Dr. Nickell & Friedman - Virtually Strange Debates

 >>He was insulting, officious, arrogant, and authoritarian. He was
 >>rude, disingenuous, obfuscating, and trite.

 >OK, so that's his good points .... <g>

 >Seriously, I wish I could have heard it, but it was in the wee small
 >hours over here in the UK.


Listen to it here, partner --

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/sdi195.ra

which uses the free 'Real' player, here -- cut and paste if needs
be.

http://forms.real.com/netzip/getrde5_new_look.html?h=3D207.188.7.150&f=3Dwin=
dows/RealOnePlayerGold.exe&p=3DRealOne+Player&j2re=3Dfalse&tag
type=3Die&type=3Ddl

... and see if you don't agree. I'm glad the show went down as
it did, actually. It gives everyone an opportunity to see how
your garden variety CSICOPian works, which is with prejudice,
bigotry, and intellectual cowardice... and so not very well.
Steve Allen and Carl Sagan are likely rolling in their graves,
which is a shame. Alive today, I'm sure that they denounce them
as I do, and dead they are not able to do anything about the
misuse and abuse of their good names.

Moreover, why does the "Committee for the Silly and Insentient
Commitment of Obdurate Persons" have to dredge up these old news
names for their credibility, anyway, but that it doesn't have
anyone of any validity current to wave their unbrave banner;
they must resort to dead persons who can't defend themselves.
The families of Allen and Sagan should _sue_ to make them stop.

Read on.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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               Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:43:50 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 16:18:28 -0400
Subject: Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Acres


 >From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@sprint.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:54:19 -0300
 >Subject: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change

 >List,

 >The web site displaying the methodology for calculating the time
 >of day when the Fort Worth Ramey/DuBose photo shoot took place
 >has been moved to a new site address.

http://pages.sprint.ca/rpitcanada_1_photoshoot/files/photo_shoot_time_001.htm

 >For some reason, and I have not received an explanation by the
 >service provider to my query, all of my files pertaining to that
 >this web page only, were in-accessible. In an attempt to upload
 >the files to the same site, the upload was not accepted. I had
 >to build a new web site.

 >It will be interesting to see if the same thing occurs again.

Hi Andrew. Great work! :)

Amazing in fact!

Is this method 100% accurate? Does it coincide with the alleged
time?


Regards,

Dave







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                        Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:18:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:10:34 -0400
Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Hatch


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:35:05 +1000
 >Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr.

 >>From: James Mortellaro Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:21:00 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr.

 ><snip>

 >>I would respectfully call your attention to this interesting
 >>phenomena, as it does make me wonder why it is thus.

 >>James Mortellaro
 >>The Greater

 >Hello Sir! Glad to hear you have kept the Reaper waiting! :)

 >I listened to your son's Rense interview and I was both
 >fascinated & horrified at the same time!

 >I'm curious to know if you recall any similar experiences
 >throughout your life?

= = = =

Dear Sgr. Mortellaro Sr:

Please stick around.

The longer the better.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Jul > Jul 4

                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:36:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:13:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:56:49 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 ><snip>

 >>Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
 >>Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
 >>it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
 >>direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

 ><snip>

 >Larry:

 >I don't know the answer to your question, but I will attempt to
 >find out for you this weekend.



Dear Jim

Its not a life or death matter here right now.

If and when you do learn something, please let me know. I take
no sides in the Walton matter, but for the sake of geography, I
want to record the time and position of reported events.

I realize you have much higher priorities, and really appreciate
that you took the time to respond.


Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:13:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:15:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >Here is the latest Magonia Supplement, edited by John Harney, to
 >who any comments should be addressed.

 >MAGONIA Supplement No. 39

 >July 2002 Editor: John Harney
 >harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk

 >EDITORIAL

 >About 12 years ago Dennis Stillings wrote, "The ETH is extremely
 >difficult to falsify, making it a fertile breeding ground for
 >every sort of fantasy."

Gosh, exactly like the Psychosocial Hypothesis.

 >Since then there has been little change in American ufology. The
 >psychosocial hypothesis is rejected out of hand. Sensible
 >explanations for "classic" cases are brushed aside, with remarks
 >about "armchair ufologists", "skeptibunkers" and "pelicanists".
 >Witnesses are assessed not on their reliability, but on whether
 >or not they say what the believers want to hear. Instead of
 >maturing over the years American ufology has remained in a state
 >of thumb-sucking infantilism.

It is particularly gratifying to read this sort of Colonel
Blimpism on July 4. It is sadly - or, depending on your point
of view, hilariously - apparent that some of our illustrious
British friends continue to think of us as rude colonials who
just won't bow down to the superior wisdom of the Mother
Country.

God bless America. And its ufology, too. Long may it torment the
Blimps of the earth as they sail the skies in search of heresies
to banish.

Happy Fourth to all Americans and friends of America.


Jerry Clark








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                  Saucers On The Rise Again Over Sri Lanka

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:17:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:49:19 -0400
Subject: Saucers On The Rise Again Over Sri Lanka


Source: Daily News - Sri Lanka

http://www.dailynews.lk/2002/07/04/new19.html

Stig

***

Thursday, 4 July 2002

Flying saucers on the rise again ?

by Rashomi Silva

**

Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs), commonly called 'flying
saucers', are in the news again. Several UFO sightings have been
reported from various parts of Sri Lanka over the last few
weeks.

"These sightings have been confirmed by a group of keen
observers," said Prof. Chandana Jayaratne of the University of
Colombo, who has been investigating reports of such sightings,
told a press conference held in the Colombo University.

One of the observers, Sanjeeva Bandara, has even written books
on UFOs.

"More than 100 villagers have seen the UFO," an observer said.
"In general we cannot consider these stories as being
fabricated. We camped near the Parakrama Samudra on June 15. We
didn't see anything on our first day but on the second day
around 11.30 pm we saw a blue-white light.

"The light beam is so unlike any of other light beam we have
seen before. The light beams rotated, suddenly disappeared and
reappeared a few seconds later from a place 300-400m away from
the place it was initially. A few seconds later it again
disappeared.

"We camped near the Parakrama Samudraya. Dense jungle stretched
out to the far end and the light beam came from the jungle.
Therefore, we could not go out to investigate. Out of our
preliminary investigations it turned out to be an object capable
of emitting 'V' shaped beam of light of intense illumination.

"The villagers including an Advanced Level student told us the
flying object is capable of moving at a very high velocity and
when it is travelling at a lower height it made a sound similar
to a sound made by a bee. And it could change its direction to
avoid colliding with trees. For three consecutive days we
observed the same UFO," the observers.

**

Produced by Lake House

Copyright 2001 The Associated Newspapers of Ceylon Ltd.








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                              Cheshire, UK UFOS

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:39:08 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:50:50 -0400
Subject: Cheshire, UK UFOS


Source: This Is Cheshire

http://www.thisischeshire.co.uk/cheshire/weird/ufo.html

Stig

***

UFOS

**

Whether you believe we're "not alone" or not, there's an awful lot
of evidence to back up the theory that Unidentified Flying Objects
really exist. To help you make up your mind, here's a selection of
stories from the archives of the Guardian, Messenger, World and
Globe Series, stretching back over 50 years. If you have had a UFO
experience yourself, tell us about it, using our contact form.


1957, Runcorn:
James Cooke claimed he was hijacked by aliens in a flying saucer
from Runcorn Hill - 40 years ago. He says he was taken to their
homeworld, Zomdic, a planet orbiting a star light years away
from our own solar system.

There he claimed to meet with the wise elders of the planet who
instructed him to spread the word of "universal peace and
harmony" to the rest of humanity. He was returned home 45 hours
later.

After a later contact, this time on Frodsham Hill, James set up
the Church of Aquarius in the town. It became so popular that a
second "church" was opened. Here, James "channeled" information
from the elders of Zomdic. The church ran for 10 years before
James disappeared from public view in 1969.


1963, Runcorn:
RAF veteran Dick Newby saw a "huge blue star-like object" hurtle
through the sky, just above the rooftops over Boston Avenue. He
then watched as it burned a path over Halton Castle. He said: "I
was very alarmed. I've seen plenty of shooting stars and
airliners but this was neither. It looked nothing like a
shooting star and was dead silent."


1966, Runcorn:
John Middleham of Runcorn saw a flying disc over Halton. From
then on, armed with a cine camera, he constantly scanned the
skies trying to capture UFOs on film. Three years later, he
spotted a huge cigar shaped object with two smaller discs
underneath the skies of Runcorn. 1968, Widnes: Police took chase
in squad cars after a huge brightly lit flying cross was seen
flying over Fiddlers Ferry power station. No explanation was
given for the object which left the cars standing as it hurtled
off at speeds in excess of 100 miles an hour.


1969, Runcorn:
Police received a report of a UFO landing on a playing field
behind Pine Road.

**

More....
Click here for more stories taken from our archives.

Or...
Search our archives yourself for UFO stories:
Cheshire
Trafford
Wirral

**

=A9 Copyright 2002 Newsquest Media Group - A Gannett Company








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                    More From 'The Scotsman' On UFO Wave

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:56:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:52:12 -0400
Subject: More From 'The Scotsman' On UFO Wave


Source: The Scotsman

http://news.scotsman.com/columnists.cfm?id=3D722612002

Stig

***

Thu 4 Jul 2002

Is that what it's about? They voyage across the galaxy to
rip your breeks?

Jim Gichrist

**

Everyone's watching the skies. In the southern hemisphere
they've been

tracking Steve Fossett, millionaire balloonist extraordinaire,
circumnavigating the globe in what looks like a giant Mylar
condom. In our own dear Falkirk triangle, everybody's seeing
day-tripping aliens - according, at least to VisitScotland's
declaration that Scotland is a favourite destination of visiting
extra- terrestrials.

VisitEarth... sorry, VisitScotland quoted figures that placed us
at the head of the world's top five "UFO hot spots". This was to
mark last Monday's International UFO Day: it was on 24 June,
1947, that American Air Force pilot Kenneth Arnold, returning
from a search mission over the Cascades mountains, claimed to
have observed nine disc-shaped objects sharing his airspace, a
journalist subsequently coming up with the term "flying
saucers".

But if last week's commemorations passed you by, there was no
need to worry: Tuesday was declared World UFO Day by a suspect-
  sounding Turkish organisation calling itself the Sirius UFO
Space Sciences Research Centre, to commemorate the Roswell
Incident, an encounter of immense cosmic significance or an
overblown military gaffe, depending on your point of view.
You'll know the story - how, in the first week of July 1947, a
New Mexico rancher found fragments of strange metallic debris
scattered over a large tract of his land. There were claims and
counterclaims, rumours of small, hermetically sealed coffins
being ordered by the local USAF base, a plethora of X-Files-
  style conspiracy theories and, of course, that infamous and
widely discredited "alien autopsy" video.

Were they indeed, as the US military insisted, fragments of a
weather balloon that "Mac" Brazel found littering his arid
acres, or bits of crashed spaceship? Just what are they seeing,
the good citizens of West Lothian and Stirlingshire, who, if we
are to believe them, can hardly go about their business without
being buzzed by flying saucers sporting "I love Bonnybridge"
stickers? Planets, ball lightning, gas flare-offs from
Grangemouth ... or joy-riding extra- terrestrials?

Things are not always what they seem. Remember the moving
statues phenomenon in Ireland in the 1980s, when, by all
accounts, you could hardly walk down a boreen for alabaster
Madonnas leaping off their plinths, and they had to fence off
the statue of Master McGrath, the famous greyhound, because it
kept going after rabbits? Try staring at a statue, or anything,
for long enough, and it will start to wobble a bit: I recall an
enigmatic letter from a bishop to the Irish Times at the time
which made no mention at all of errant statues but dealt
extensively with eye strain and runway lights.

Of course, just occasionally an incident sticks. What did happen
to that forester, Bob Taylor, a man apparently not given to
flights of fancy, who in 1979 encountered what looked like a
spacecraft on Dechmont Law, near Livingston, from which two
spherical, spiked objects approached him and he lost
consciousness, awaking bruised and muddy, with his clothes torn?
There were odd depressions in the ground nearby. So is that what
it's all about? They voyage across the galaxy to rip your
breeks?

However, if Scotland is proving to be "Costa del Sol for
aliens", as VisitScotland so picturesquely puts it, one landmark
they appear not to be visiting is the Royal Observatory on
Edinburgh's Calton Hill. When I asked whether they were bothered
overmuch by interstellar daytrippers, an astronomer there gave a
disappointingly instantaneous "no", adding: "If anyone ever came
up with any substantial evidence, of course we'd be the first to
be really interested, but we've never seen any. It's always
hearsay and unsupported stories on dark country lanes."

Such churlish lack of enthusiasm, however, seems unlikely to
deter those who believe that Bonnybridge, close encounter
capital of the world, should be twinned with Roswell in a sort
of saucers-across-the-ocean gesture of goodwill. Perhaps then
Scotland, destination of choice for the wee green guys, should
change its unofficial national anthem from Flower of Scotland to
that old Byrds hit Mr Spaceman. Remember?

Woke up this morning with light in my eyes,

And then realised it was still dark outside

It was a light comin' down from the sky

I don't know who or why ...

In the meantime, keep watching the skies, but don't hold your
breath.

**

=A92002 scotsman.com








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                    Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr.

From: James Mortellaro Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:00:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:54:02 -0400
Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr.


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:35:05 +1000
 >Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr.

 >>From: James Mortellaro Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:21:00 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr.

 ><snip>

 >>I would respectfully call your attention to this interesting
 >>phenomena, as it does make me wonder why it is thus.

 >>James Mortellaro
 >>The Greater

 >Hello Sir! Glad to hear you have kept the Reaper waiting! :)

 >I listened to your son's Rense interview and I was both
 >fascinated & horrified at the same time!

 >I'm curious to know if you recall any similar experiences
 >throughout your life?

Dear Mr. Acres, This List and Mr. Bruce-Knapp,

I have never had such as my son has apparently experienced. My
suspician is that there have been some incidents with other
members of our family. This is a result of my son's recall
bringing some memories out in others. And comparing them with
James' experiences.

When James has completed his work with Mr. Hopkins, they may
look into these perceptions. Since these do not involved me, I
shall leave the question (as to whom) unanswered until or if
such a time arrives when these family members choose to speak
out.

We are a close, loving family. Very close. Our bond to each
other is love. And love suffers not at all, from anything
malevolent in this life.

I hope to be around for a few more years to study this
fascinating subject. One never knows if something new will be
learned. And I am so sorry I did not take interest before. I may
have learned something new.


Respectfully,

James Mortellaro, Sr.








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              Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:22:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:55:30 -0400
Subject: Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:15 -0400
 >Subject: International Petition to UN Progress Report


 >Hello All,

 >The response to the International Petition to the UN is turning
 >out to be a monument to apathy.

Hi John,

with great sympathy I have followed your attempts to mobilize
people here in this list and maybe anywhere.

But I think, you have to acknowledge the facts - just like I had
to some years ago.

Everything has its time and sometimes it is a good atmosphere
for grassroots efforts - and sometimes not. Your endeavour seems
to sufferfrom the latter conditions.

As you might know, together with Hans-J=FCrgen Kyborg, I am the
German Coordinator of the once famous "International Roswell
Initiative" which issued the "Roswell Declaration" which was
signed by more than 20,000 individuals. At that time and two
years before "the empire striked back", Roswell was the motor of
this initiative, everyone was excited to know more and so it
went well.

Today, no one in the UFO community is excited at all.

It is not only apathy, it is also depression  and agony because
everyone knows by now that the Dark Lords have won. Today they
even won't care about international courts. And it seems, that
they have the power to ignore the rest of the planet, don't
they?

Haven't you seen the lectures of Stanton Friedman, who again and
again presented blackened UFO related documents?

And what had we to learn with our Roswell Declarations beside
the fact that one of its strongest advocates, Kent Jeffrey,
suddenly, out of the blue and without really new arguments
turned around  one hundred an eighty degrees?

When we asked the White House about what happened to our
declarations, signed by two Apollo astronauts, hundreds of
scientists, numerous PhDs, people from all professions and all
age, we simply got the answer that Pres. Bill Clinton has issued
to release thousands of classified documents and therefore we
only have to wait for the outcome and that there is no time to
care for such things like the Declarations. We never heard
anything again from that Lady in some of the emperial offices.
Never again.

We the people....

I even called Kent Jeffrey to tell him that there is a new
effort and that we might have a chance to power this up by
reminding of the 20,000 Declarations and as one of the
representatives of this International Roswell Initiative, which
is at least alive in Germany, I offer my support to your
endeavour. So with one word you may use all our 20,000
Declarations for the UN (if you`ll find them) and the other
3,000 which I have here in Berlin. Let us meet in front of the
UN-Building and shake hands to the Secretary.

And then? Do you really believe that Senator Palpatine and his
Darth Mauls will care for our infantile and naive understanding
of Democracy?

I think, the reason why you have received so little response to
your effort is that many have given up. They wouldn`t fight
anymore because they have recognized that Big Brother has won
the game.

Maybe you should start to walk along the main street of your
home town and start to play again the famous songs of the time
during the Vietnam war instead of waiting for manipulated
forums.

"Tell me, over and over and over and over again my friend..."

Joachim Koch, Berlin Germany







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                        Larry Warren: In Perspective

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:34:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:57:32 -0400
Subject: Larry Warren: In Perspective


Regarding:

 >From: Larry Warren <suemariemac@yahoo.co.uk>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:48:24 +0100 (BST)
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:59:01 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part II - Warren

Larry wrote:

 >James my brother, I have read your reports on the case for
 >years, and find many of your views of interest.

Larry,

Reply much appreciated, I believe there's maybe more to your
story than generally realised.


 >...give me a few days to go over your post on the case and I
 >promise I will answer the questions that you have asked.

That would be so helpful.

 >You may not like some of the answers, and may find other info I
 >include of interest I just ask that in future, please keep my
 >text as I write it, if you choose to re-publish it.

Guaranteed.

 >The transcript of Bustinza and Battram in Laeg, is exactly as
 >Larry Faucett sent it to Peter Robbins in the early 1990s, we
 >did not edit any thing that a researcher provided us with.

Understood; I have copies of what should be the same
transcripts, although they may slightly differ.


 >Lets loose the frauds header ok, as I am not.

Duly taken care of.

Kevin Randle highlights one of ufology's inherent dilemmas.

Kudos to Kevin for exposing central Roswell witness, former
mortician Glenn Dennis, as... let's say, 'untrustworthy'. Not
everyone would agree with Kevin though...

Kevin apparently considers the late Frank Kaufmann to be a more
reliable Roswell witness, yet others would say that Kaufmann's
evidence is blatantly phoney.

Kevin also regards Gerald Anderson's Roswell testimony as
unreliable, whilst Stanton Friedman seemingly disagrees.

Stanton will however maintain that Bob Lazar has been
discredited, although others still believe Lazar's Area 51
tales.

And so it goes... the history of ufology is replete with bogus
claims and hoaxed photographs, the majority of which still have
their supporters.

 >From George Adamski and those early contactees who supposedly
met Venusians or were taken onboard a prerequisite flying
saucer, through Billy Meier and Ed Walters' portfolios of 'alien
saucer' photographs, there are countless instances where either
the evidence is factual, or it's known by the claimant to be
downright fraudulent.


That does not seem applicable to yourself, though.

If what you may or may not have experienced is complicated by
the later use of 'regressive hypnosis', how does that differ
from anyone accepted to be an 'abductee', who 'recalls' their
seizure by a non-earthly species only after being hypnotised?

Is it because they were, at least, definitely 'there'?


Perhaps the crux is - can it be proven you did participate in
events, even if not as subsequently remembered.

Early last year, your former colleague and good friend, Steve
LaPlume, contacted myself. We discussed at length both his own
noteworthy 'east gate UFO sighting', circa mid-January, 1981,
and historical evidence relating to your reported experiences.

Steve's following insight concerning the latter was significant:

"I can confirm this however. I know that in the beginning Larry
told me that he was working with some UFO people and that he was
not telling them the whole story. I felt it was out of fear of
ridicule. I will say this in his somewhat defence. Larry told me
after my sighting when he laid the whole thing out that day in
my dorm room, that he did see something being like and that they
communicated to an officer. He also mentioned cameras, video
taping and that they need parts to fix their craft.

This was all told to me about a month after his incident and I
would say a week or so after mine. On that I will say he has
never really wavered. I do not, however rule out that this may
have been a result of him talking to others and putting a story
together. Only the players involved would know that".


Which seems fair enough, it's not possible for Steve to verify
anything further in this respect.

What it does establish, taking his recall at face-value, is how
the essence of your story existed at such an early date and was
not therefore compromised by any 'hypnosis' at that time.


Steve was also invited to participate in discussions on the
'UFO' forum I manage, which he did to a considerable extent and
I hadn't read that material for a long time.

Going over it again in more detail, I see that with due
hindsight he provided an extraordinary amount of background
information, which was of course the intention.

For example:

"Larry Warren should be able to even back me up on this. There
was an airman named Mark Thompson. His home town was Santa Cruz,
California. His mother was a well to do realtor. That is about
all I know about him other than he played guitar, his brother
was in a popular rock band called 'Rat' and had recently turned
Christian and was trying to get Mark to seek the Lord.

I talked with Mark a bit as he and I were assigned to many of
the same crappy duties once we were no longer Cops. Just for
your info when a cop lost his weapons cards due to being
arrested or unstable he was no longer allowed to were his beret
and was called a 'Snap'. Mark and I were on 'Snap' patrol. We
got all the fun jobs like cleaning the puke off the toilets in
the dorm after a long weekend. Oh yea I really miss those
days... Not!

Mark was getting out for failure to adapt or something similar
to that. I talked to him the next day after Larry told me of his
incident. I remember it was on a bus ride from Bentwaters to
Woodbridge. Mark confided in me that he knew because he was
there that night Larry and the others had their sighting. He
also backed up Larry's claim that the light-alls were in fact
not working properly and that they were having trouble with the
gas gauge on their vehicle and keeping it working proper. He
never again mentioned the incident and I never asked because
when he talked about it he got the thousand yard stare in his
eyes and I could tell it bothered him. I dropped the subject out
of respect for him".


Steve also mentioned:

"I talked to Col Halt about six months ago via an e-mail. He
swears Warren was not there for the 'Big show'. I also asked him
what the official story was in case someone were to ask as I was
getting approached by UFO type people since Larry's book came
out. He replied that there really was no official story. I
should have saved it because (if I remember it word for word) he
said that only people very high above him... [the remainder
deleted for now - James].

I don't have a clue what that meant but I thought it was an
interesting comment".


Larry, no question you were not there for the 'big show', as
perceived by Halt. However, aside from enigmatic 'beams of
light', there really wasn't much of a spectacle witnessed by
Halt and his team.

It was otherwise simply a 'strange flashing red light', viewed
through a 'Starscope' night-image intensifier [absolutely not
intended for looking directly at bright lights] and later
documented on Halt's microcassette recording as seen again,
"clear off to the coast".

I dare say an obvious argument is, who actually had front seats
for any 'big show' and who was, in fact, on the periphery.

Irrespective of what yourself and any others may separately have
witnessed, there is clearly evidence, via Adrian Bustinza and
albeit second-hand, Mark Thompson [Bustinza claims a Mark
_Tompson_ was present], that there was more to that 'third
night' than Halt's limited context.

It does allow for the possibility you were one of, seemingly,
many others who were present, in whatever capacity.

There had to be further base personnel than only Halt's team -
  who had positioned those light-alls within Rendlesham forest
and before Halt personally set out to statedly "debunk" the
'UFO' sightings?

Bustinza, who does essentially support your claims, also cites
Major Zickler, Sergeant Medina, Captain Verrano, Sergeant Ball,
Sergeant Combs, Airman Palmer [who was with Steve LaPlume during
their own sighting] as being present.

In the absence of any related case testimony from these further
potential witnesses and conceivably others, we only have many
unanswered questions.

John Burroughs was also there that night and he wasn't with
Halt's team.


In 'Left at East Gate', you wrote about a telephone call, 'next
day', in which you were asked to, "meet a 'dark-blue sedan' car
in the dorm parking lot in twenty minutes" and how:

"I could see the car now; it looked like a Lincoln town car. As I
got closer, its orange and blue New York State plates made me
strangely homesick."

As an aside from what is claimed to have then occurred, I'm sure
you will be interested to note that I asked Steve about any
'unusual' personnel on base after the 'UFO' incidents and he
told me the following story:

"I did in fact have my own run in with some characters that were
out of sort.

No idea where there were from, but I do feel that the night I am
referring to, they were in fact looking at me. I confronted
them. Before I did though, I talked to the waitress I knew who
was serving them and she said they were Germans. I borrowed a
cigarette and just blatantly went over and confronted them. This
was very out of character for me at the time as I was a bit of a
shy person and non-confrontational. I think this is a point in
my life were I noticed a change in my attitude.

I sat right down at the table were they were. One was no longer
there I think he was dancing or walking around the club. I sat
down and asked for a light. I don't even remember if the guy lit
my cigarette or anything but I do remember that he got very
flustered. I then pushed the subject and asked what he was doing
there. He acted like he did not speak English and I left the
table giving him a look to tell him I knew what he was up to.

[...]

After he signalled his partner they spoke for a second or so and
let via the back door which was strange in itself. There was
nothing back there that I knew of other than the access alley
behind the club. I gave them about a half a minute and went out
after them to confront them more because now I was pretty ticked
that they were following me. When I went out the door I saw the
black Lincoln town car driving off. I know it was a black
Lincoln town car as my uncle had one just like it back home.
Can't remember the plate other than it was I believe domestic US
not the rectangle British type".

[...]

[END]


I wonder if it was the same car - 'dark blue' could easily look
'black' at night.


 >Some would call you a debunker, however these same people tend
 >to do some of the same things that you are accused of. Sad
 >thing is that these guys claim to be on the pro-UFO side!

I don't 'take sides', an elementary prerequisite to appreciating
any true perspective. We can only strive to establish facts,
even if they're not to everyone's liking.

I look forward to your overall comments and whether we can make
any more sense of the available evidence now highlighted.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ukonline.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 4

                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:26:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:58:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hall


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:36:45 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:56:49 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>>Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
 >>>Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
 >>>it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
 >>>direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

 >>Larry:

 >>I don't know the answer to your question, but I will attempt to
 >>find out for you this weekend.

 >Dear Jim

 >Its not a life or death matter here right now.

 >If and when you do learn something, please let me know. I take
 >no sides in the Walton matter, but for the sake of geography, I
 >want to record the time and position of reported events.

 >I realize you have much higher priorities, and really appreciate
 >that you took the time to respond.

 >Very best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch

God, I can't stand these polite, thoughtful postings. Why can't
we continue to hurl insults at each other and always assume the
mendacity of the other fellow, business as usual?


  - Dick










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   Jul > Jul 5

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:13:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 07:53:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >Here is the latest Magonia Supplement, edited by John Harney, to
 >who any comments should be addressed.

 >Of particular interest is the letter from Sarah, about her
 >father's migraine attacks. Long time List participants may
 >remember discussions about the connections between migraine and
 >some forms of the abduction experience when John Harney's
 >article was originally published. These comments from someone
 >with direct experience seem to reinforce Harney's suggestion -
 >which was denounced quite strongly at the time.

<snip>

I really didn't join this List to espouse my own opinions, just
to read the e-mails, because I actually don't know all that much
about UFOs. So after this I will try to shut up and just read
and listen - I just couldn't resist a comment though, when I
read this.

 >Since then there has been little change in American ufology. The
 >psychosocial hypothesis is rejected out of hand. Sensible
 >explanations for "classic" cases are brushed aside, with remarks
 >about "armchair ufologists", "skeptibunkers" and "pelicanists".
 >Witnesses are assessed not on their reliability, but on whether
 >or not they say what the believers want to hear. Instead of
 >maturing over the years American ufology has remained in a state
 >of thumb-sucking infantilism.

I noticed someone talking here recently about postmodernist
criticism - well, the paragraph above would certainly lend
itself to postmodernist deconstruction a la Derrida. I notice
the claim that "American ufology has remained in a state of
thumb-sucking infantilism" carries with it the unspoken
implication (the "subtext", as postmodernists would say) that
European ufology is in no way in such a parlous state. In answer
to which I'm tempted to offer the sentiment quoted lower down in
the Magonia bulletin - Get real :-)

<snip>

 >LETTER

 >am just writing you because I read your article/website about
 >the classical migraine and the UFO correlation. It is definitely
 >very interesting. I found your website because I was searching
 >for an answer to my dad's zigzag auras. I was shocked to find
 >out that it sounds as though he has been experiencing the
 >classical migraine (aura without migraine). Anyway, as I read on
 >about these people, who not only experienced the same auras as
 >my dad, they have also had an encounter with a UFO. This is very
 >interesting because my dad will never forget the cold winter
 >morning of 1965 in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada. At around 4:00am my
 >dad stepped outside on his way to work. As my dad was stepping
 >into his truck, something caught his eye. He looked up and saw
 >this beautiful circular object with circular coloured rings
 >hovering just below cloud level. He gazed at the beautiful
 >object for two to three minutes before it quickly disappeared
 >leaving a light vapour behind. At the age of twenty he obviously

I think we have here an example of the poverty of verbal
description.

If this is in fact a description of a migraine scotoma (and it
doesn't actually sound much like one) then it is describing a
visual phenomenon quite unlike anything that I've heard
manifesting in any UFO report. The one thing a migraine aura
never is, is constant. Migraine effects are highly dynamic, both
in terms of brightness and movement - to the extent that it's
almost impossible to describe them accurately. I have
experienced migraine scotomata on many occasions, and both
dynamism and distortion are intrinsic features.

For the benefit of readers who've never experienced a migraine
scotoma, Van Gogh's "Starry Night" conveys a good impression of
the dynamic, fermenting quality.

 >could not believe his eyes. Soon after this incident he became
 >weak and dizzy. He had these frequent dizzy spells for about two
 >years after the incident. Two or three years later, he started

On the basis of what is described, I'm inclined to suspect that
the onset of migraine symptoms at this point was probably
coincidental.

 >seeing these zigzags usually in his right eye. They would start
 >small then gradually get bigger. He had many tests done such as
 >MRIs and CAT scans but nothing was found. His doctor told him
 >that he was a borderline epileptic and that he would not be able

I'd love to know who the physician was who dx'd "borderline
epilepsy" on the basis of an absolutely classical "fortification
spectra" type of migraine scotoma.

 >to drive again. My dad did not believe the doctor that he was an
 >epileptic and began to take his problem into his own hands. He

Sensible guy.

 >stopped having anything that contained caffeine and noticed that
 >he got the zigzags much less. Fifteen years later he figured
 >that the caffeine may not be the answer to his problem and
 >started having caffeine again and started getting the zigzags

Something amiss here surely. Caffeine should be therapeutic for
migraines, because it counteracts the dilating of cranial blood
vessels which causes them.


 >more often. He is now happy to know that he is most likely
 >experiencing a classical migraine after reading your article and
 >Oliver Sacks's book. There should definitely be more studies
 >done on the correlation of the migraine aura and UFO encounters.

I agree with this, both about the need for more studies
(knowledge is power) and about the sheer wondrousness of Oliver
Sacks' book ("Migraine", California University Press 1970).

BTW can anyone please tell me (off-List if necessary) where I can
find out what the "psychosocial hypothesis" actually *is*?


Cathy Reason








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   Jul > Jul 5

                Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr. - Davey

From: Virginia Davey <vmdavey@idirect.ca>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 20:22:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 07:54:36 -0400
Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr. - Mortellaro Sr. - Davey


 >From: James Mortellaro Sr. <JMortellaroSr@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:00:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: News Of Jim, Sr.

 >We are a close, loving family. Very close. Our bond to each
 >other is love. And love suffers not at all, from anything
 >malevolent in this life.

Dear Mr. Mortellaro, Sr., List, and EBK,

What you say here is profoundly true. I'm sure that your family
has been a tremendous help to Jim over the years in this matter
of abduction as in all else.

I am happy to hear that all is now well with you and that you
have decided to add your voice to the List. I look forward to
your views and ideas on this fascinating sub- ject.


Virginia Davey

Toronto








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   Jul > Jul 5

                Bonnybridge's UFO Links Prove Tourist Magnet

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 02:31:01 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 07:55:47 -0400
Subject: Bonnybridge's UFO Links Prove Tourist Magnet


Source: The Falkirk Herald (Scotland),

http://www.falkirktoday.co.uk/fullstory.asp?storyid=5

Stig

***

Falkirk Today

Friday Jul 5 2002

NEWS

**

Village's ufo links prove draw with tourists

The sky is the limit for tourist potential

**

SCOTLAND is the "Costa del Sol for aliens" according to a new
report with Bonnybridge the star attraction.

The village is described as the "epicentre" of UFO activity in
Scotland and the unofficial European capital of UFOs making it a
must-see for Earth-bound visitors as well as little green men.

Bonnybridge is attracting visitors from as far afield as
America, Germany and Japan and at least one tour company is
planning a UFO day-trip which includes a stop off there.

UFO enthusiast and author Ron Halliday said Bonny-bridge was
famous. "It has been recognised worldwide as a centre of UFO
activity," he claimed. "I took some Americans round myself. You
get visitors from Germany, Japan, all over."

Mr Halliday said there were various suggestions as to why
Bonnybridge was seemingly awash with UFOs.

"One theory is the area around Bonnybridge is some kind of
window into another dimension," he revealed. "That would explain
why some people see a UFO and others don't because a UFO is some
kind of paranormal phenomenon rather than a nuts and bolts
spaceship."

A spokesman for VisitScotland, which commissioned the study,
said: "This confirms Scotland is the nearest thing there is to
the Costa del Sol for aliens."

Bonnybridge councillor Billy Buchanan beamed into homes last
week ... speaking about the UFO phenomenon on national TV and
also on radio in Iceland.

And he has repeated his call for the village to be twinned with
Roswell in New Mexico, the UFO capital of America.

**








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   Jul > Jul 5

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:53:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 07:58:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:49:56 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>I find it puzzling that Moore never mentions any strange foil
 >>characteristics, while first-hand witnesses to the Foster ranch
 >>site are quite explicit about them.

 >The answer to your question can be best answered by the Ft Worth
 >photos, and in particular the photos of Jessie Marcel. Marcel
 >identified the material he was holding as part of the debris he
 >found. Yet the foil he is displaying is clearly wrinkled, torn,
 >and creased- not what you might expect from "memory foil".

Marcel in his last interview (with Linda Corley in 1981) stated
that Ramey had him cover up (i.e. conceal) the real material
before the photo shoot. There is, in fact, one small, round,
wrapped package in the photos, next to the radiator in the
Marcel/Newton photos, and behind the chairs in the Ramey/Dubose
photos.

Very conceivably Marcel was simply misunderstood. There was
"real" debris still in the room when the photos were taken, but
the photos, of course, were of a balloon and a radar target.

In another interview with reporter Johnny Mann, Mann asked him
very pointedly about this, saying that the photos seem to show a
balloon. To this Marcel responded simply that the photos had
been "staged."

Backing up Marcel on this point was a retired AF general who was
there with Marcel. That would be Brig. General Dubose, then
Ramey's chief of staff. In his affidavit, e.g., Dubose stated
flatly, "The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj.
Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon
explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the
attention of the press."

 >There is also the testimony from the only two individuals who
 >saw the debris 'in situ' - Bessie and Mac Brazel.

Only two individuals? Again making it up as you go along, aren't
you Bruce?

Obviously Marcel Sr. saw the material "in situ" and reported
memory metallic-like foil and a memory metallic-like "fabric"
(he compared it to fabric because it was porous -- he could blow
through it) . Bill Brazel also saw fragments of the material "in
situ" and independently provided the same memory properties to
it.

According to neighbors Marion Strickland and Sally Strickland
Tadolini, Brazel came over to their place to show a piece of the
foil he had found at the ranch. Tadolini again described the
memory property and like Marcel, described the metallic piece
she saw as resembling a fabric in texture.

"It was about the thickness of very fine kidskin glove leather
and a full metallic grayish silver, one side slightly darker
than the other.... I did a lot of sewing, so the feel made a
great impression on me. It felt like no fabric I have touched
before or since. It was very silky or satiny, with the same
texture on both sides. Yet when I crumpled it in my hands, the
feel was like that you notice when you crumple a leather glove
in your hand. When it was released, it sprang back into its
original shape, quickly flattening out with no wrinkles."

Another "in situ" witness was Sgt. Lewis Rickett of the Army
CIC, Cavitt's assistant. In Friedman and Berliner he is quoted
as saying,

"[The material] was very strong and very light. You could bend
it but couldn't crease it. As far as I know, no one ever figured
out what it was made of...."

He also described handling a piece of thin, very rigid metal in-
the-field which he was completely unable to bend no matter how
much force he applied. He was one of a number of witnesses to
contradict Cavitt's story, BTW. Jesse Marcel Jr. saw crash
material when his father returned. Although he never described a
memory property to the metallic material, his descriptions also
don't match that of a radar target. E.g., the Fort Worth photos
clearly show the white paper foil backing of the radar target
and a more shredded white paper separated from the foil. Yet
none of this is part of Marcel Jr.'s description of the debris.
Neither is the shiny nature of the aluminum foil. Instead, we
got descriptions such as these:

"The material was foil-like stuff, very thin, metallic-like but
not metal, and very tough."

"Most of the debris consisted of metal foil. It was kind of like
a dull aluminum on each surface."

"Most of the debris looked like pieces of an aircraft airframe
and its skin. . . . [There was] a thick, foil-like metallic gray
substance." Marcel Jr.'s dull grey color description was the
most common for the metal debris, not the shiny description you
would expect for aluminum foil. Examples of other witnesses who
described it as dull grey were Marcel Sr., Rickett, Tadolini,
and Brazel Jr.

Would little Jesse Jr. have been familiar with the mysterious
foil/paper material. Sure -- Hershey's and Wrigley's had been
wrapping their candy products in it for the previous 30 years.
Go to the grocery store and buy a Hershey chocolate bar and
there is the same confusing "Mogul" foil/paper material that
supposedly flummoxed the sheep rancher, his son, his neighbors,
and all the fools at Roswell base including Marcel and Col.
Blanchard. What a bunch of rubes!

Incidentally, Loretta Proctor, another Brazel neighbor, said
Brazel told them about the memory foil that he couldn't cut with
his knife when he came to their place just before going to
Roswell. Here are some statements from various interviews:

" ...'Mac' [W. Brazel] said the other material on the property
looked like aluminum foil. It was very flexible and wouldn't
crush or burn."

"He said the stuff that looked kind of like aluminum foil, he
said you'd crumple it up and then it would straighten out, it
wouldn't stay creased, it would just open out. But he couldn't
get any of it off to bring up. He said he couldn't cut it or
anything."

"He was telling us about more of the other material that was so
lightweight and that was crinkled up and then would fold out."
Proctor also said Brazel brought a small piece of the wood-like
material. It resembled balsa in lightness and color, but
completely unlike balsa, it couldn't be marked or cut with a
knife and was unaffected by flame. This, BTW, was exactly the
same description given by Marcel also Brazel Jr. (except he
didn't try to burn it).

Another memory foil witness, though not exactly "in situ," was
Sgt. Robert Smith of the 1st Air Transport unit at Roswell, who
said he saw it while they were loading up debris for transport
at the base:

"All I saw was a little piece of material. The piece of debris I
saw was two-to-three inches square. It was jagged. When you
crumpled it up, it then laid back out; and when it did, it kind
of crackled, making a sound like cellophane, and it crackled
when it was let out. There were no creases."

There was also testimony that was either second-hand or more
distant in time, such as that of Brig. Gen. Arthur Exon, a
former C/O of Wright Patterson AFB. Exon stated flatly that
Roswell was the crash of a craft from space, and described what
he had been told by personnel at W-P who had examined the
material. This included a description of the "memory metal":

"[It] couldn't be easily ripped or changed ...You could wad it
up, you could change the shape, but it was still there and ...
there were other parts of it that were very thin but awfully
strong and couldn't be dented with heavy hammers and stuff like
that... which at the time were causing some people some
concern... again, say it was a shape of some kind, you could
grab this end and bend it, but it would come right back. It was
flexible to a degree."

 >Neither
 >recalled any special qualities to the foil, save that it was
 >backed by some fabric.

Excuse me. Where did Mack Brazel ever say anything about any
"fabric?" In his Daily Record interview of July 8, he spoke of
finding paper, particularly paper backed with foil, but no
"fabric."

As for Bessie Schreiber, her affidavit has her describing:

"...The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring
about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a
kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-
like on the other. Both sides were grayish-silver in color, the
foil more silvery than the rubber. ...The foil-rubber material
could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil can be torn..."

Since when was the radar target foil/paper like "foil-rubber?"
The color Schreiber described also doesn't match. If the radar
target in the FW photos was what was discovered at the ranch,
then she should have said one side (the paper) was bright white,
not that both sides were "grayish silver." Also, the foil/paper
was very easily torn. Go try it on that Hershey candy bar.

So Schreiber's description of the foil material is not
consistent with a rawin (though other parts of her description
might be). And nowhere that I know of did she describe the foil
as being backed with "fabric."

 >Sheriden Cavitt is another who did not
 >observe anything special about the foil.

Sheriden Cavitt also claimed for years that he wasn't involved
in any way, not even stationed at Roswell. Then he was stationed
there, but not until afterwards. No, wait a second, he was
stationed there at the time, but he was on leave at the time
everything happened.

Then the Air Force interviewed him. Now he was not only there,
he was definitely involved, but not too deeply. He claimed all
he saw was a tiny balloon crash no bigger than his living room.
Gee, wasn't the Mogul crash site supposed to be slightly bigger
than this?

He claimed he never met Mack Brazel, contradicted by both Marcel
and Brazel, who clearly mentions "the man in plain clothes" who
accompanied Marcel and himself back to the ranch.

If he never met Brazel, how exactly did he find the balloon
crash no bigger than his living room out in them middle of
nowhere -- GPS coordinates?

At first he denied going out with Marcel, saying he was only
with his assistant Rickett. (He finally amended his story after
coaching from the AF interviewer.) Rickett said he went out with
Cavitt, but the day after Cavitt first returned from the ranch
with Marcel. It was at that time that Rickett saw a large crash
recovery operation and anomalous metallic material. This too,
contradicts Cavitt's story.

Cavitt claimed that after returning to the base, he handed off
the balloon to Marcel, and that was the end of his involvement.
Again this was contradicted by Rickett, who, among other things,
spoke of Cavitt withholding a report from Marcel the next night
upon Marcel's return from Fort Worth.

As to the legendary Mogul "flower tape," supposedly accounting
for the "hieroglyphics," Cavitt flatly denied ever seeing
anything like that. Instead he blamed it on those crazy UFO
writers who made things up to sell their books.

My, what a sterling witness for a Mogul balloon! Everybody
contradicted his story. Even his wife contradicted him in the
midst of his interview. He even kept contradicting himself.

 >As to why other witnesses testify to 'memory foil'? That can
 >only fall under the catagory of speculation.

Typical debunker flim-flam. If they didn't describe memory foil,
the story is automatically accepted, such as Cavitt's, no matter
how much he obviously lied. But if they did describe memory
foil, pretend either that the witnesses don't exist or relegate
such testimony to the "catagory of speculation."

How about, they testified to "memory foil" because that's what
they witnessed? Is that too "speculative?"


David Rudiak








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   Jul > Jul 5

                      July 5 UFO Day On History Channel

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 03:32:46 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:11:46 -0400
Subject: July 5 UFO Day On History Channel


Source: History Channel,

http://www.historychannel.com/perl/tv/tvlistings.pl?channel=3Dhist&get=3Dtod=
ay&tz=3DEST&time=3D1

Thanks to Otis Willie, Associate Librarian at the American War
Library, for the tip.

Stig

***

Listings for Friday , July 05

**

Please note: Programming schedules are subject to change.

You are viewing Eastern/Pacific listings. You may also view
Mountain or Central time. [Links]

Attention: The way our TV listings are organized has been
changed. The daily and weekly schedules are now listed from 12am
to 11:59pm instead of 6am to 5:59am the next day. For example,
for a History's Mysteries episode which airs at 8pm ET/PT and
repeats at 12am ET/PT on August 15, the 8pm showing will be
listed as part of the August 15 schedule, but the 12am repeat
will now appear on the August 16 schedule.

Direct TV users, dish owners, and some cable operators within
the Pacific time zone may not be affected by the dual feed.

**

(snip)


8:00AM - 9:00AM
UFOs vs. the Government

Looks at four reported sightings of UFOs. Includes interviews
with experts who insist the sightings are credible, and others
who offer evidence that the witnesses really saw something else.
TV G


9:00AM - 10:00AM
UFOs: Testing the Evidence

Looks at the possibility of alien contact through the eyes of
the ufologists, scientists, and religious theologians, and
examines cases of reported contact. Visits the Vatican
Observatory in southern Arizona, and an ancient Hohokam
observatory with 2,000- year-old pictographs that show that
early man did see something unusual in the skies. TV G


10:00AM - 11:00AM
Extraterrestrials

Have earthlings really had close encounters with flying saucers?
In this exploration of UFO sightings, we present the views of
both believers and non-believers. TV G


11:00AM - 12:00PM
The Search for Life on Mars

Throughout history, our planetary next-door neighbor Mars has
captured our imagination--from little green men to "man-made"
canals and satellite photos revealing a giant "face". As one of
the most likely spots in our solar system where some form of
life may exist or have existed, we have spent billions on
missions designed to disclose the red planet's tightly-held
secrets. We'll trace man's journey of discovery of this
fascinating planet, and focus on NASA's great successes and
heartbreaking failures. TV G


12:00PM - 1:00PM
Area 51: Beyond Top Secret

Born during the Cold War, Area 51 in Nevada, also known as Groom
Lake or Dreamland, became not only the Air Force's most
strategic test site, but also a symbol of everything that was
sneaky about the U.S. military-industrial- intelligence complex.
In recent years, UFO investigators claimed that the top-secret
planes tested there were built with technology gleaned from
captured alien aircraft. We uncover the secrets of the cryptic
desert facility and look into mysterious deaths of base workers.
TV G


1:00PM - 2:00PM
Air Shows

 >From barnstormers to Blue Angels, antique aircraft to
supersonic jets, each year there are an astonishing 425 air
shows in America alone, entertaining over 18-million spectators.
 From futuristic festivals to billion-dollar expos, we explore
the world of amazing aerobatics and their ever-evolving aircraft
and see how aviation technology has affected air shows-- and how
air shows have advanced aviation. Find out why these high-flying
events are second only to baseball as America's favorite family
event. TV G


2:00PM - 3:00PM
UFOs vs. the Government

Looks at four reported sightings of UFOs. Includes interviews
with experts who insist the sightings are credible, and others
who offer evidence that the witnesses really saw something else.
TV G


3:00PM - 4:00PM
UFOs: Testing the Evidence

Looks at the possibility of alien contact through the eyes of
the ufologists, scientists, and religious theologians, and
examines cases of reported contact. Visits the Vatican
Observatory in southern Arizona, and an ancient Hohokam
observatory with 2,000- year-old pictographs that show that
early man did see something unusual in the skies. TV G


4:00PM - 5:00PM
Extraterrestrials

Have earthlings really had close encounters with flying saucers?
In this exploration of UFO sightings, we present the views of
both believers and non-believers. TV G


5:00PM - 6:00PM
The Search for Life on Mars

Throughout history, our planetary next-door neighbor Mars has
captured our imagination--from little green men to "man-made"
canals and satellite photos revealing a giant "face". As one of
the most likely spots in our solar system where some form of
life may exist or have existed, we have spent billions on
missions designed to disclose the red planet's tightly-held
secrets. We'll trace man's journey of discovery of this
fascinating planet, and focus on NASA's great successes and
heartbreaking failures. TV G


6:00PM - 7:00PM
Area 51: Beyond Top Secret

Born during the Cold War, Area 51 in Nevada, also known as Groom
Lake or Dreamland, became not only the Air Force's most
strategic test site, but also a symbol of everything that was
sneaky about the U.S. military-industrial- intelligence complex.
In recent years, UFO investigators claimed that the top-secret
planes tested there were built with technology gleaned from
captured alien aircraft. We uncover the secrets of the cryptic
desert facility and look into mysterious deaths of base workers.
TV G

**

=A9 2002 A&E Television Networks. All rights reserved.

A&E, A&E logo, A&E Classroom, Biography=AE Channel, The History
Channel=AE, and The History Channel Classroom=AE are trademarks of
A&E Television Networks.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 21:37:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:00:14 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:41:46 +0100

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:19:04 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

<snip>

Cathy:

Thanks for the valuable input on autokinetic motion.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:52:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:03:07 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert


 >From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:08:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hebert

 >>>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >>>Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>With so many years having past, younger skeptics
 >>>may not have ever seen NICAP's original rebuttal to the
 >>>Condon Study.

<snip>

 >>If one is not a skeptic, what are you? A "believer"? "Pro-
 >>UFO"? How can one remain objective if not at least
 >>somewhat skeptical about anything one studies?

<snip>

 >First of all, obviously, there appears to be a lot of
 >sensitivity out there concerning the information I posted
 >concerning NICAP/Condon. I hope it is possible for people to get
 >past the strong emotions that it obviously engendered to really
 >read and comprehend the information therein and perhaps discuss
 >it rationally.
<snip>

Hi, Jerry:

I was only commenting on the use of the term 'skeptic'. I had no
feelings whatsoever about the information concerning
NICAP/Condon.

I have no doubt that you saw something, Jerry (as I also shared
my own sightings with you via private E-mail). I happen to think
UFOs exist. I just don't think most people would know a real
UFO from a man-made one due to the amount of deception going on.

This is why I advocate being skeptical and very careful about
what you believe. Things are not as they seem.


A. Hebert









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                                   Meteor?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 02:51:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:05:01 -0400
Subject: Meteor?


It's now 2:45AM on this small mountain. I just came in from a
little viewing on my five inch reflector. As I was packing, I
looked up to see what I imagined was a meteor. It was traveling
east to west at about 5 degrees per second, leaving no trail. A
little slow for a meteor, eh?

It seemed to just appear at about 40 degrees above the Eastern
horizon and disappeared about 30 degrees from the Western
horizon. It traveled in a straight line at about 20 degrees south
of zenith.

Meteor right?  Wrong.

It also stopped dead in it's path almost above me and stayed
there for more than one minute.

Venus? Swamp gas? Perhaps a pelican!  Not a meteor. And
likely non of the aforementioned. Occular degeneration of the
frontal famous of the interior of the muscle in the eyeball?

Nah!  Maybe... just _maybe_, it was the dreaded UFO!?


Jim








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 06:06:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:09:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:16:34 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:23 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

Richard, List and Readers,

 >Bob and other skeptibunkers excel at force-fitting data to
 >support their preconceived conclusions. It had to be a Mogul
 >balloon, therefore the vaguest and most incomplete evidence of
 >such is presented as absolute fact.

 >Moore didn't "force fit" the data.

He did indeed "force fit" the data to make the Mogul land on the
Foster Ranch. That's very clear when one traces through his
various assumptions, stated and unstated. You need every last
one of them to get the balloon there. And some of them are
highly questionable, as will be made clearer below.

 >He used the data that was

The "data" being sketchy wind data, not Flight #4 trajectory
data, which doesn't exist. He further tried to extrapolate the
wind data to points afar in distance and time to predict the
trajectory, something that Mogul documents from 1947-1949 said
they weren't able to do.

They went into some detail about this in their 1948 paper in the
J. of Meteorology coauthored by Moore, using Flight #11 of July
7, 1947 as an example. Wind data from Roswell, Albuquerque, and
El Paso all had winds blowing to the north. But Flight 11 headed
to the east, swinging north only as it approached Roswell.

 >supplied by Kevin Randle and put it in a model that he checked
 >by using the data from other flights. It correctly predicted
 >the approximate crash of the other balloons.

I keep hearing this, but I have never seen any data published by
Moore where he supposedly correctly predicts the crash locations
of the balloons with known trajectories. In his cowritten book
("UFO Crash at Roswell: Genesis of a Modern Myth"), he _re-
examines_ the actual flight data of balloons #5 and #6 and and
then back-calculates such things as wind speed and direction.
But he does _not_ do the reverse, namely use weather maps and
wind data gathered from surrounding weather stations to predict
wind speed/directions and then see if he could accurately
predict the trajectories.

If someone really wanted to put this to the test (and therefore
spend some money), they could send up 3 sets of neoprene
balloons on different days with different weather conditions and
accurately track them with a GPS transponder. This set of sample
data could then be handed over to Dr. Moore, much like he used
the trajectory data from the other early Mogul neoprene balloon
flights,

Then send up 10 more sets of balloons and see if he can predict
where they go and where they crash. He would know nothing about
the actual trajectories, but would be provided with similar sets
of sketchy weather data he used to "predict" the path of Flight
#4.

To further simulate the situation, he would be told nothing
about the exact launch time or the exact configuration of the
balloons sent up. He might be told they were sent up sometime
between 2 a.m. and 7 a.m (to try to simulate the actual
situation with Flight #4), but not the exact time. They might
have 4 balloons or 5 balloons, etc.

Now let's see just how successful Dr. Moore would be in
predicting the flights under these more controlled conditions,
when there are multiple unknowns and when he doesn't know the
results beforehand, or thinks he knows the results (i.e., Flight
#4 _must_ have been what landed at the Foster Ranch).

My prediction: He would be lucky if he placed any of these test
balloons within 20 or 30 miles of where they eventually ended
up.

 >Force fitting is using the testimony of people like Ragsdale,
 >Dennis, Anderson, etc. to justify a crash of an alien spaceship.

Trying to change the subject Bruce? The discussion was about
Moore force-fitting his Mogul trajectory data.

I promised at the beginning that I would give an example. So
here is a very flagrant example of Moore obviously forcefitting
a Foster Ranch crash through an unstated assumption that has no
justification at all in being made.

To set this up, people should realize that the first N.M. Moguls
of June/July 1947 were composed of neoprene weather balloons,
before they switched over to primarily polyethylene balloons for
the latter set of July 1947 balloons.

Moore had 3 example neoprene balloon Moguls with complete
trajectory data sets to work from. These were #5 (June 5), #6
(June 7), and #7 (July 2). Moore, however, used only #5 and #6
as comparison flights with #4 (June 4). #5 was judged clearly
the most successful of all the flights, with its ascent/descent
and constant level systems working as designed. #6, however, was
judged a failure, with its ascent/descent and constant level-
systems failing to work properly. It rose straight up and then
came straight down again within about 3 hours. #5, in constrast,
lasted nearly 6 hours; #7 nearly 7 hours (though judged a semi
success because it didn't reach the stratosphere). However,
Moore makes his model #4 last nearly 8 hours, longer than any of
the other flights, 2 hours longer than the most successful #5
the day afterwards. This was one of his questionable assumptions
and a big one for getting #4 up to Mack Brazel's place.

But I'm not going to talk about that. No, I'm going assume for
now all his initial assumptions are justified and correct and
just focus on his very last assumption. This concerns the
descent phase of the balloon. Ideally the balloons hovered in
the stratosphere between about 50,000 to 60,000 feet, where they
picked up a slow wind that carried them back towards the west.

When the balloons started popping, dropped out of the
stratosphere and into the troposphere at about 50,000 feet, they
encountered faster winds blowing in different directions, which
tended to carry them far from location at which they started
dropping.

Now #5, the most successful flight, took about 90 minutes to
drop to the ground from 50,000 feet. The semi-successful #7
(which never quite made it into the stratosphere) dropped from
48,000 to ground in about 120-130 minutes. The very unsuccessful
#7 fell in about 60 minutes, the most rapid descent by far of
the three.

So which rate of descent would you choose to model the descent
phase of #4? Since Moore seems to be assumning #4 is the epitome
of success, you think he would choose maybe #5's descent rate as
a model, or maybe the average of all 3 known balloons, which is
also about 90 minutes.

But this isn't what Moore chooses at all. Instead he has #4
dropping like a rock in only 45 minutes, about half the average
or that of the successful #5, and much faster than any of the
actual neoprene flights.

During this drop the balloons caught the tropospheric winds
carrying them to the NE, traveling 37 miles to fall -- you
guessed it -- exactly on the crash site at the Foster Ranch.

Of course, if Moore had more logically assumed a 90 minute fall
time, the balloons would have traveled another 37 miles and
badly overflown the ranch. If he had assumed the more leisurely
descent rate of #7, they would have overflown the ranch by at
least 60 miles -- can't have that, can we? Even if he had used
the fastest descent of the unsuccessful #6, they would have
missed by about a dozen miles. But even that wasn't good enough.

No, Moore conjured up a completely artificial fall time
unsupported by the actual data from the other three balloons. He
has #4 falling much faster than any of the others. He had to do
that or it wouldn't have ended up where he wanted it.

If that isn't force-fitting the data, I don't know what is.

Moore never states that he made this assumption or why. I'm not
surprised, since it seems impossible to justify. Instead, it is
hidden in his table of the hypothetical trajectory, which seems
to impress the uncritical fawnees like Bruce Hutchinson so much.

Moore's hidden assumption is strikingly in contrast to his
stated assumption in his book chapter that, "I think Flight #4
used our best equipment and probably performed about as well or
as better than Flight #5."

But Flight #5's ascent and descent equipment worked perfectly.
To make #4 land where he wants it, however, Moore seemingly
assumes that #4's equipment malfunctioned on ascent and descent
producing the abnormally fast rise and fall times.

It is only when you examine Moore's numbers and assumptions
closely that you realize what a sham most of this is. He needs
all his assumptions to get his little lost Mogul up to Brazel's
place. Start making some more reasonable ones, and the balloons
keep ending up further and further away from the Foster Ranch.

Here's another one of his questionable assumptions (though not
as important to the end result as his overly rapid descent).
Instead of modeling #4's ascent along the lines of the
successful #5, he instead interpolates the ascent rates between
#5 and the faulty #6, which rose too fast at the end (its ascent
system which was supposed to blow off a few extra ascent
balloons around 35,000 feet didn't work).

Again, there is really no good reason to assume this. Either the
ascent was normal, like #5, or it was faulty. If he is assuming
a highly successful flight (including the exaggerated time
aloft), why not assume the same ascent pattern for #4 as #5?

What effect does this have? It ends up taking about 10 minutes
less for his model #4 to get up into the stratosphere compared
to #5 (about 95 minutes vs. 105 minutes). While this doesn't
sound like much, one has to realize that the tropospheric winds
are highest here and can have a sizable effect on where the
balloons end up. Moore's own table of extrapolated winds has
them between about 50 and 80 mph between 35,000 and 50,000 feet,
let's say an average of 60 mph, or a mile a minute.

Thus if Moore had made #4 like #5, the balloons would have
traveled at least 10 miles further to the NE before entering the
stratosphere, turning left and heading west. The endpoint of the
balloons when they crashed would have been about another 10
miles further to the NE from the Foster Ranch.

There seem to be 2 reasons why Moore made this assumption. 1) He
needed to get the balloons up faster than seems reasonable to
conform to his 50-year-old memory of them being tracked directly
over the Capitan Mountains to the NE, and 2) it was an
additional assumption he needed to make, along with an overly
fast drop rate, to make the balloons land on the ranch.
Otherwise they would have badly overflown the desired crashed
site.

Again, Moore is obviously force-fitting the data and not
predicting anything other than what he wants.

(Today I decided to recheck Moore's model quantitatively by
entering his numbers into a spreadsheet. When I subsituted in
the more reasonable numbers for ascent and descent of the
successful Flight #5, leaving all of Moore's other assumptions
untouched, the balloons ended up overflying the Foster Ranch by
about 60 miles to the NE and crashing about 60 miles due north
of Roswell. This is exactly what one would expect from a
qualitative analysis of his assumptions.)

 >IF it is skeptibunkers (TM) who force fit the data, why can't
 >the Pro-Roswell researchers agree on the date of the crash, the
 >location of the crash, what the craft looked like, how many
 >bodies there were, what the debris on the floor of Ramey's
 >office really was, what the telegram stated, etc.?

This is again changing the subject and trying to compare apples
and oranges.

 >>Never let it be said that skeptibunkers engage in anything
 >>approaching objective analysis of important UFO cases; they know
 >>the answers in advance (ALL UFOs have prosaic explanations) and
 >>"prove" them by advancing totally unsubstantiated and often
 >>counter-to-fact claims.

Indeed. Any objective analysis of Moore's model clearly shows
him cooking the books to make the Mogul land on the ranch. If
the skeptibunkers (TM) dared to be honest about it, they would
admit as much. Actually, I don't think honestly has much to do
with it. I suspect most of them are too stupid to realize that's
what he did. They don't know how to critically look at the
assumptions and numbers and see if they are reasonable.

 >Totally unsubstantiated ? That would require the testimony of
 >Ragsdale, Dennis, Kaufmann, Anderson, etc. The irony is that the
 >skeptical explanation was found not by skeptics but by UFO
 >researchers, fits the newspaper accounts, the FOIA documents,
 >the photos, etc.

What the hell is he talking about here? The newspaper accounts
have Marcel saying the debris was scattered over a square mile
of the ranch, too large for any Mogul crash and grossly
inconsistent with the photos. The newspapers have Ramey stating
that the object in his office would be 25 feet across if
reconstructed, not fitting what is the photos at all, but by
remarkable coincidence matching a few size descriptions by
witnesses to the main craft. Ramey and his weather officer
Newton and the Dallas FBI telegram also describe the remains in
Ramey's office as being from a singular balloon and radar
reflector. That hardly matches Mogul either.

The photos of the weather balloon in Ramey's office confirm
there was hardly any debris there, probably fully accounted for
by a singular balloon and radar target. The photos also reveal
the radar target as "fresh." The white paper backing is a
bright, even white, showing no evidence of staining or being
dragged through the dirt, as would be expected of the month-old
Mogul lying in the desert. The hundreds of feet of twine that
would have tied the Mogul together is missing. Indeed, the
account of Brazel's statements in the Roswell Daily Record have
him stating that he found no string or wire. There is also no
evidence of the so-called "flower tape" in the photos either.
  Nor is there any sort of instrumentation, such as the sonobuoy
which should have come down with any Mogul radar reflectors
along with the dropping parachutes. UP newspaper accounts
further have Ramey denying that any instrumentation was found.
  And Mack Brazel didn't describe any either.

The condition of the balloon remains in the photos is also a
little too good to conform to a neoprene balloon left out in the
hot N.M. sun for a month. The photo balloon is still largely
intact, instead of a brittle mass breaking up into black flakes
after 2 to 3 weeks, the sort of demonstration Charles Moore has
carried out a number of times. Also missing in the photos are
Mack Brazel's grey rubber "strips." There is also not nearly
enough material in the photos to add up to Mack Brazel's "5
pounds" of material gathered into 2 bundles. One complete 350
gm balloon and one 350 radar target add up to 1-1/2 pounds.
Where's the rest of the stuff Brazel supposedly found?

Marcel and Ramey's chief of staff, Brig. Gen. Dubose, were later
to state that the weather balloon/radar target in Ramey's office
was a shill designed to kill the story and get the press off
their backs. It wasn't the real debris brought from Roswell.
  The photos would seem to provide circumstantial evidence of
this, and certainly do NOT support the recovery of a multi-
balloon, multi-Rawin Mogul with instrumentation.

The newspaper accounts of the base press release said that
Brazel found the object "sometime last week," not mid-June.
  Also UP stories initially reported that neighboring ranchers
had also seen "a strange blue light" near the ranch several days
before. Sheriff Wilcox was to soon change Brazel's discovery
date to several weeks before, but also admitted in one AP story
of "working with those fellows at the base" when pressed for
more details about what the "disk" looked like and apparently
refusing to answer. (In yet another AP story, Wilcox switched
back to Brazel making his find only several days before.) Ramey
was to firm up the "three weeks ago" story in Fort Worth, then
further put out by Pentagon spokespeople. Mack Brazel hours
later was actually the last person to give this story. There
would have been plenty of time to coach him and there is a lot
of witness testimony to him being in military custody at the
time. (See scenario immediately below.)

Back in Washington, Gen. Vandenberg's daily log and appointment
book show a sudden cancellation of a previously scheduled
meeting for the morning of July 8, 1947, replaced by a 2-1/2
hour meeting of the Joint Research and Development Board, just a
few hours before the Roswell base flying disk press release.
  Could this be the same JRDB chaired by Dr. Vannevar Bush,
unmistakably fingered in 1950/51 Canadian documents as heading
up a small, highly secret group within the RDB looking into the
"modus operandii" of the saucers? Indeed it could.

Did I mention the photos of the teletype in Gen. Ramey's hand
have the phrases "the victims of the wreck" and "in the 'disc'
they will ship"? Both phrases disprove any sort of balloon
crash. A Mogul would produce no "victims" and the so-called
radar target "disc" had no insides. Furthermore, Ramey is
calling the the actual object a "disc," not a balloon, a RAWIN,
a Mogul, etc.

There is quite a bit more to this than the simplistic model that
Mogul used radar reflectors, the Fort Worth photos show a radar
reflector, therefore what is in the photos _must_ have come from
Mogul.

Here's another scenario of events that I think is more
reasonable and conforms much better with the stories of various
witnesses and even Moore's Flight #4 model.

Mogul #4 badly overflew the Foster ranch, as Moore's own model
would actually predict with more reasonable assumptions.
  Instead, it ended up somewhere north of Roswell (which my
recalculation with normal rise and fall rates shows).

During the recovery operation of July 8, 1947, the military
scoured the desert surrounding the Foster Ranch looking for more
wreckage. During this reconnaissance, they came across the
corpse of the rotting #4 north of Roswell.

At about 3:30 MDT, the Roswell base press release hit the AP
wire. About 45 minutes later, AP reporter Jason Kellahin was
dispatched to Roswell from Albuquerque to cover the story
(distance from Albuquerque to Roswell about 200 miles).

It would take Kellahin about 3 to 3-1/2 hours to drive directly
to Roswell. But Kellahin remembered diverting from the main
road to Roswell, instead turning onto the Corona road south of
Vaughn (and about 60 miles north of Roswell) to head out to
Brazel's place. Within only a few miles, he found the military
at a balloon crash site, with Mack Brazel in tow.

Telling this story 40+ years later, Kellahin thought he was at
Mack Brazel's ranch, which was actually a good 40 miles away
from where Kellahin claimed to be. Obviously, if there was any
truth to Kellahin's memory of events, this couldn't be.
  Diverting completely to Brazel's ranch would have added at
least another 3 or 4 hours to his travel time. Yet we know he
was in Roswell later that evening at Brazel's interview in the
Roswell Daily Record office.

Let us continue. After poking around for a half hour or so,
Kellahin remembers it getting late. The military told him they
were finished and were taking Brazel into Roswell.

When you add up all the times, when Kellahin left Albuquerque,
how long it would take to drive to Roswell, add in the time for
his diversion from the main road, he would have ended up in
Roswell at around 8:00 p.m. MDT. Very soon after, Brazel had
his short press conference with Kellahin present, first telling
a balloon story that does indeed sound very much like a Mogul
crash, but at the very end recanting it.

Thereafter, radio reporter Frank Joyce recalls Brazel calling
shortly after sunset (which was at 8:10) to arrange a meeting to
recant his original story he had told Joyce when he first came
to town.

So the times fit together quite well. The basic chronology of
this scenario is as follows. The military finds the Mogul crash
about 60 miles north of Roswell near the main highway and just
off the Corona road (but not at Brazel's place). At 3:30 is the
base press release. Kellahin leaves for Roswell at 4:15. By
4:30, Gen. Ramey is already amending the story to a weather
balloon and radar target (according to those actual darned
newspaper accounts). In the meantime, the military takes Brazel
to the found Mogul crash site. It has already been decided he
would have a press conference and say he found a balloon, so the
visit was to familiarize him with the balloon crash site and
enable him to tell a more realistic balloon story. This was the
Brazel coaching phase.

At around 6:30, Kellahin stumbles on the Mogul site just off the
main highway, later confusing it with Brazel's place. 6:30 is
also the time that the official ID of the balloon in Ramey's
office by Ramey's weather officer was announced on the AP wire.
By around 7:00-7:15, it is getting late, and everybody heads
into Roswell. At 8:15-8:30 is Brazel's short interview at the
Daily Record. At around 8:45 (shortly after sunset), Brazel
calls Joyce to arrange a meeting where he can recant his story.

In this scenario, Mogul #4 actually does play a role in the
Roswell events. But it was not what Brazel found at his ranch.
Instead, it acted as a diversion from the real situation.


David Rudiak








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   Jul > Jul 5

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 06:25:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:12:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:04:39 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy


 >Flight #4 is a convenient modern-day scapegoat for the Roswell
 >crash because there is _no data_ on it to tell us exactly how
 >it was configured when it was launched, what direction it
 >headed, how long it was airborne, how high it got, or where it
 >ended up.

 >But there is far more information about Flight #4 than exists
 >for an "Alien Disk". Unlike many Roswell issues, there is some
 >documentation. Like Flight #4 did take off on June 4.

Oh gee, we are impressed. It took off. Lots of weather balloons
took off that day, and every other day.

 >They also know that Rawins were part of the load transported to
 >Alamogordo.

Do we know this for a certainty? Charles Moore says so, but
there is no actual documentation to support it, not even a
photo. The _only_ early N.M. Mogul flight where actual records
indicate any sort of radar tracking was #8, and that wasn't
until early July, after the team had already left in early June
and not returned until late in the month. Maybe they brought the
targets to try out for the July launches, not June.

 >(now why did they take those along?).

Do we know they brought them in June? Or is it just Moore's say-
so again? Maybe they brought them, but there is nothing to
document it. Maybe they used them on Flight #4, but there is
nothing to document it.

 >Radar tracking was abandoned early on- as a result of the
initial>flights.

That's Moore story, who claimed the tracking on them was poor.
There has never been a decent explanation that I know of for why
the targets seemed to work elsewhere but not in New Mexico.

Nonetheless, there actually is some surviving Mogul
documentation to support this, including the absence of such
tracking noted on most of the flight summaries, whereas other
tracking such as visual, aerial, and radiosonde was noted.

 >They know that they used neoprene balloons.

Yeah, good documentation that the June balloons were neoprene
balloons. But again so what? All weather stations had neoprene
balloons, including the larger 350 gm variety used on these
Moguls. E.g., their were 84 radiosonde stations in the
continental U.S. then, each sending up 2 such balloons a day, or
at least 168 balloons each and every day. There were over a
dozen such stations within the immediate N.M., Texas area, such
as in Albuquerque and El Paso. White Sands also used them and
also had Rawins.

Ultimately, the question you have to answer, but keep dodging,
is how is the Rawin/balloon in the Fort Worth photos different
from all others employed by the weather services and made them
obviously from a Mogul? Point to the feature or features that
make it so, if that is indeed what was found at the Foster
Ranch.

 >They have meteorological data

There is upper atmosphere wind data from many hours later and
many hours earlier from the White Sands weather station 32 miles
south of Alamogordo, but nothing on the region that Flight #4
supposedly traversed over 100 miles away. There is also very
general U.S. weather maps, but again not the detail you need to
accurately predict anything.

Moore also completely lacked any stratospheric wind data on June
4, which is a very, very big part of his model. He also makes
lots of assumptions about Flight #4's altitudes and time aloft
in this region, even though he completely lacks any data on
this. It's almost entirely guesswork based on extrapolations
from flights on other days.

As I said in another post, Mogul summaries and a paper Moore
coauthored in the J. Meteorology a year later, said they
couldn't reliably predict trajectories from wind data at
surrounding weather stations, or even their own pilot balloon
sent up before the Mogul flights. Why is the situation that much
different now?

 >that can be used not only to predict the probable flight path
of>#4,

No, after assuming lots and lots of things, doing lots and lots
of extrapolations and interpolations, and maybe consulting a
Ouji board, you can certainly construct a model that can create
a trajectory. But just how "probable" or accurate a flight path
you get is another matter entirely.

Where the balloons go and where they come down depends entirely
on one's set of assumptions. Moore makes some highly
questionable ones. But he needs them all to have a prayer of
Flight #4 coming down on the Foster Ranch using his model.

What Moore is computing, then, is not so much a "probable"
flight path, but the one he wants.

To cite but one example, gone into much more detail in an
accompanying post, Moore states he is assuming Flight #4 had
their best equipment and was at least as successful as Flight #5
the next day, if not more so.

But to get the balloon to the Foster Ranch, he gives it ascent
and descent times characteristic of a balloon with equipment
that didn't work properly. It's not at all like the properly
functioning equipment of Flight #5. He has Flight #4 rising too
fast and, in particular, falling much faster than any of the
other neoprene Moguls.

When I ran a spreadsheet repeating Moore's model, plugging in
actual Flight #5 rise and fall data instead of Moore's bogus
numbers, but leaving all of other Moore's other assumptions
untouched, Flight #4 ended up overshooting the Foster ranch by
60 miles and landing 60 miles north of Roswell instead.

So please explain to us all why Moore's flight path is the
"probable" one given his weird assumptions here.

 >but also to verify the assumptions used by comparing
 >computer simulations against actual recorded flights.

You keep saying this, but could you point us to those alleged
computer simulations that have predicted actual recorded
flights? I have yet to see any, just claims that they exist.

 >All of this can be used to verify several 40 year old memories-
 >the same kind of memories that proponents have to depend upon.

Which memories are those? What is closer to the truth is Moore
carefully made his assumptions so that the results would
necessarily conform with his memories. This is not science, but
a good example of cooking the books.

 >But, unlike the memories of "memory foil", these memories can be
 >verified with the written record.

What written record places Flight #4 on the Foster Ranch? Which
written record has it taking the trajectory Moore gives it, the
launch time he gives it, the flight time he gives it, the
altitudes he gives it, the rise and fall times he gives it,
etc.? All these things are crucial to the path it eventually
follows.

<snip>

 >>(Entry for Jun 4, 1947)"...Flew regular sono buoy up in cluster
 >>of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor
 >>plane."

They launched it. Big deal. Doesn't say exactly when, doesn't
say exactly how it was configured, doesn't say which direction
it headed, doesn't say what altitude it reached, doesn't say how
long it stayed up, doesn't say anything about radar tracking,
doesn't say where they lost it, doesn't say where it came down,
doesn't say anything about it ever being found or recovered,
etc., etc. And Crary's log did sometime mention these things.

How does this brief entry confirm these parts of Moore's story?

And BTW, are you going to acknowledge that "the good luck on
receiver on ground but poor on plane" part does NOT refer to
radar reflector tracking, but to sonobuoy transmitter reception?
At least Crary documents the sonobuoy. And since you seem to
parrot everything else Charles Moore writes about this, he also
wrote it was the sonobuoy reception being discussed in the
diary. You've twisted this into the flight being tracked by
radar from the plane. What a bunch of baloney!


David Rudiak








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   Jul > Jul 5

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:44:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:14:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:53:34 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:49:56 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

<snip>

 >It was at that time that Rickett saw a large crash
 >recovery operation

David:

A Roswell Myth detail first invented by Frank Edwards in the mid
50's for his exciting flying saucer lectures, then repeated in
his 1967 pot-boiler, "Flying Saucers Serious Business."

See my "Frank Edwards and the Roswell Crash":

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/dec/m30-014.shtml


Have a nice day,

Bob Young








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                       Two New Reports On NIDS Website

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:20:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:15:54 -0400
Subject: Two New Reports On NIDS Website


Two reports have recently appeared on the NIDS web site and may
be of interest to your readers.


Sincerely

Colm Kelleher
NIDS

-----

Report #1: NIDS was contacted at 8.00 AM on the morning of Feb
21, 2002 regarding an ice circle that had mysteriously appeared
on a ranch overnight. According to the report, at approx 7.00 AM
on the morning of Feb 21, 2002 the circle, measuring 5 feet 9
inches in diameter, was discovered in an irrigation canal on a
ranch in NE Utah. The local NIDS investigator, who is a retired
deputy sheriff and an experienced tracker, was on the spot
within less than an hour. The investigator immediately proceeded
to take photographs (see photos 1-3 in report on the What s New
Section of the NIDS web site: http://www.nidsci.org ).
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
com:office:office" />

The ice was approximately 3/4 inch thick under the circle. The
circle occurred near a spot where ranch cattle frequently drink
water. [See photo in report]. According to the investigator, the
nearby cattle were behaving normally when he arrived&. The
remainder of the report has just been posted on the NIDS web
site.

-----

Report #2: Secondly, a mutilated Red Angus cow was found in
Montana in June 2001 with no obvious tracks from vehicles,
people, or predators around the animal.  The mutilations
consisted of very clean excisions of the left eye and eyelid,
rectum, genitalia, and tongue.  The previous NIDS Report
(http://198.63.56.18/pdf/montana_cattlemutilation.pdf )
documented the analyses of  green colored tissue from underneath
the left jaw-bone, vitreous fluid, and a maggot mass.  A cursory
examination of vitreous fluid from a control heifer was also
done.  This recent addendum report summarizes the results
obtained when additional brain tissues samples were submitted
for analysis from the Montana cow, as well as the control
heifer.  The assignment was to look for any components that
should not be normally present in the mutilated animal.
  Secondly, an in-depth evaluation of the MS data previously
obtained in November 2001 from vitreous fluid of the control
heifer was completed as an aid to accomplish this objective.

The results in this addendum report support those reported
previously. Oxindole was found at low levels in the brain of the
mutilated animal but not in the brain of the control. Oxindole
was found at high concentrations in the eye-fluid of the Montana
animal and was completely absent from the eye-fluid of the
control animal. This addendum report (three photos, one table
and eight figures) documents the complete GCMS comparative
analysis of the eye fluids from both mutilated and control
animal. No other unusual molecules were found in the brain of
the mutilated animal.



Both reports have been recently posted in the What s New section
of the NIDS web site at: http://www.nidsci.org










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              Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:33:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:58:27 -0400
Subject: Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report


 >From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:22:45 EDT
 >Subject: Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:15 -0400
 >>Subject: International Petition to UN Progress Report

 >>Hello All,

 >>The response to the International Petition to the UN is turning
 >>out to be a monument to apathy.

 >Hi John,

 >with great sympathy I have followed your attempts to mobilize
 >people here in this list and maybe anywhere.

 >But I think, you have to acknowledge the facts - just like I had
 >to some years ago.

 >Everything has its time and sometimes it is a good atmosphere
 >for grassroots efforts - and sometimes not. Your endeavour seems
 >to sufferfrom the latter conditions.

 >As you might know, together with Hans-J=9Frgen Kyborg, I am the
 >German Coordinator of the once famous "International Roswell
 >Initiative" which issued the "Roswell Declaration" which was
 >signed by more than 20,000 individuals. At that time and two
 >years before "the empire striked back", Roswell was the motor of
 >this initiative, everyone was excited to know more and so it
 >went well.

 >Today, no one in the UFO community is excited at all.

 >It is not only apathy, it is also depression  and agony because
 >everyone knows by now that the Dark Lords have won. Today they
 >even won't care about international courts. And it seems, that
 >they have the power to ignore the rest of the planet, don't
 >they?

 >Haven't you seen the lectures of Stanton Friedman, who again and
 >again presented blackened UFO related documents?

 >And what had we to learn with our Roswell Declarations beside
 >the fact that one of its strongest advocates, Kent Jeffrey,
 >suddenly, out of the blue and without really new arguments
 >turned around  one hundred an eighty degrees?

 >When we asked the White House about what happened to our
 >declarations, signed by two Apollo astronauts, hundreds of
 >scientists, numerous PhDs, people from all professions and all
 >age, we simply got the answer that Pres. Bill Clinton has issued
 >to release thousands of classified documents and therefore we
 >only have to wait for the outcome and that there is no time to
 >care for such things like the Declarations. We never heard
 >anything again from that Lady in some of the emperial offices.
 >Never again.

 >We the people....

 >I even called Kent Jeffrey to tell him that there is a new
 >effort and that we might have a chance to power this up by
 >reminding of the 20,000 Declarations and as one of the
 >representatives of this International Roswell Initiative, which
 >is at least alive in Germany, I offer my support to your
 >endeavour. So with one word you may use all our 20,000
 >Declarations for the UN (if you`ll find them) and the other
 >3,000 which I have here in Berlin. Let us meet in front of the
 >UN-Building and shake hands to the Secretary.

 >And then? Do you really believe that Senator Palpatine and his
 >Darth Mauls will care for our infantile and naive understanding
 >of Democracy?

 >I think, the reason why you have received so little response to
 >your effort is that many have given up. They wouldn`t fight
 >anymore because they have recognized that Big Brother has won
 >the game.

 >Maybe you should start to walk along the main street of your
 >home town and start to play again the famous songs of the time
 >during the Vietnam war instead of waiting for manipulated
 >forums.

 >"Tell me, over and over and over and over again my friend..."

 >Joachim Koch, Berlin Germany

Hi Joachim,

As much as I would purely love to accept all those thousands of
signatures, it would be unethical of me to do so. Those folks
signed the Roswell Petition not the International disclosure
petition. It would be unfair to them to simply 'transfer' their
consent from one disclosure effort to another without first
acquiring their permission. (Individually.)

If you have a way to ask them (en mass) if it is okay with them
to make this transfer I will be most happy and grateful to accept
the 20,000 signatures that you have so generously offered. But,
their _permission_ is an absolute necessity.

If there is anything I can do to help in securing their consent,
please let me know and I will do all that I can to assist you.
In any way that you may be required. (Up to and including going
door to door like a girl scout selling cookies! :)

Twenty-thousand + signatures would put the International
disclosure effort right back on track. Thank you from the bottom
of my heart for your most generous offer. Let me know what I can
do to help, Joachim.

As for your comment that "no one cares." I firmly believe that
the only thing that will get the ball rolling on UFO info
disclosure would be a grass-roots (popular) demand for the
information from the citizens of the world's many governments.
The squeaky wheel always gets the grease Joachim.

Help me to make a 'noise' loud enough to rattle the windows at
the United Nations and I promise you that someone will care.
Even if they don't... we will have started the ball rolling down
hill. If not this time, maybe the next effort will bear fruit.
Or the try after that... or the one after that.  :)

I learned in my youth that you don't lay down (ever) in a
'fight.' This is a just and righteous cause. Quitting or
'losing' is _not_ a viable or even acceptable option.

The People have a right to know!  Period.


Warmest regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Jul > Jul 5

              Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:36:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:01:21 -0400
Subject: Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:18:36 EDT
 >Subject: Re: International UN UFO Petition Progress Report

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:15 -0400
 >>Subject: International Petition to UN Progress Report

 >>Hello All,

 >>The response to the International Petition to the UN is turning
 >>out to be a monument to apathy. After four months (one third of
 >>the time allotted for gathering signatures) only 1141 have
 >>signed the petition to date. At that rate, it looks like a
 >>petition consisting of 3400 signatures (if current trends
 >>continue) will be the end result.

 >John, List, All -

 >Maybe we just remember how well the Roswell Declaration worked
 >back five years ago. A worldwide effort to gather signatures
 >with petitions all over the place. Thirty thousand people
 >climbed on board for the petition to be delivered to the White
 >House in July, 1997, and suddenly Kent Jeffrey decides that he
 >no longer believes that there was a UFO crash at Roswell, that
 >he must deliver the petitions because he promised and included a
 >cover letter that said, basically, well I don't believe this any
 >more but there are other sightings and I wish you'd tell us
 >about it... oh, and I have more petitions at home. I don't think
 >all of them were ever delivered.

 >From another perspective, even thirty-thousand signatures, even
 >if they had all been from Americans, who could vote (but
 >probably didn't) in the national elections, wouldn't make much
 >of a ripple. Yeah, in a local race, or even a race for a
 >congressional or senate seat, thirty thousand might tip the
 >balance, but in the larger races, it doesn't matter. And, then
 >many of those signing from around the world can't vote in an
 >American election, so who really cares?

 >I'm not suggesting this as my position, only pointing out what
 >might be part of the problem.


Hi Kevin,

You're confusing the International petition with the US (Greer)
disclosure effort. They are not one and the same. In fact, I
have taken great care not to give anyone the impression that
this is strictly "USA" based movement or aimed at any single
country. Also, this is _not_ the "Roswell Declaration" and I am
not Kent Jeffrey. You mix apples with oranges here. :)

The 'objective' is to entice as many nations as possible to join
the five countries that have already conceded full (public)
disclosure of any information pertaining to UFOs.

I hope you've signed the petition. It is to the benefit of _all_
if you do so. :)


Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Jul > Jul 5

                            UpDates Spams McCoy?

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:11:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:06:09 -0400
Subject: UpDates Spams McCoy?


Hello All, EBK,

Apparently my server has decied that I am being "spammed" by
UpDates, and has initiated the anti-spam force field that it
offers to subscribers, solicited or not. They have taken the
whole Fourth weekend  off, Tech reps included, so any response
is going to be slow and measured.

No, I don't think it's "Men in Black" but idiots in denim.


GT McCoy









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   Jul > Jul 5

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:52:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:07:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hebert


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:13:48 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >On the basis of what is described, I'm inclined to suspect that
 >the onset of migraine symptoms at this point was probably
 >coincidental.

I agree.

<snip>

 >>stopped having anything that contained caffeine and noticed that
 >>he got the zigzags much less. Fifteen years later he figured
 >>that the caffeine may not be the answer to his problem and
 >>started having caffeine again and started getting the zigzags

 >Something amiss here surely. Caffeine should be therapeutic for
 >migraines, because it counteracts the dilating of cranial blood
 >vessels which causes them.

When I was a research assistant at the university, I specialized
in migraine therapy. Caffeine in unregulated doses can cause a
rebound effect that may actually trigger migraines in some
instances.

Since caffeine is a vasoconstrictor, a cup of coffee or tea may
cause the blood vessels to constrict but when the alkaloid wears
off, the blood vessels dilate again. If the patient drinks
several cups of coffee or tea or anything containing caffeine
throughout the day, the constant constriction and dilation of
the blood vessels, exacerbated by stress factors, can cause
irregular vasodilation and can trigger a migraine.

There is a big difference between caffeine/ergot therapy and
consuming caffeine at will. A migraine sufferer should always
consult their physician before taking any drugs or chemicals as
any substance may effect the psychophysiological make-up of the
individual.

(I suffered migraines from the age of 13 to the age of 18 years
old with a variety of symptoms including numbness of
extremeties, paralysis of facial muscles, auras, etc. My sisters
had them and my daughter has them. I stopped having migraines
when I learned self-hypnosis - aka self-regulation/relaxation
skills and stress management which is what I taught clients at
UNT.)








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 13:39:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:09:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hatch


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:13:48 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>Here is the latest Magonia Supplement, edited by John Harney, to
 >>who any comments should be addressed.

<snip>

 >BTW can anyone please tell me (off-List if necessary) where I can
 >find out what the "psychosocial hypothesis" actually *is*?



Hello Cathy:

There is no single psychosocial (PS) hypothesis, but a range of
opinion, which in its simplest form implies that UFO sightings,
waves or flaps especially, result from social and psychological
factors, rather than some objectively perceived anomalies.

I cannot dismiss PS out of hand, since there are always social
factors and psychology involved .. the limits of human visual
acuity for example, or the tendency to come forward with a
sighting account only after somebody else does so first. A flap
of Venus sightings, or the ravings of a crank fall neatly into
the PS category .. no shortage of those..

The fur flies when somebody puts forth PS to explain all or
nearly all UFO sightings. For me, it is inappropriate to use PS
to explain an isolated event, with multiple credible witnesses,
in the absence of any wave or local flap. There, I am left
asking whether we have objective events, possibly misperceived,
or maybe even a structured craft of intelligent design, which is
beyond our present technology.

If one takes the position that _all_ UFO sightings have mundane
explanations, given the proper information, then PS becomes a
mainstay in ones argumentative tool chest; with misperceptions
of human and natural events close at hand. Even there, visual
misperceptions are part and parcel of psychology .. as opposed
to psychiatry.

PS gained greater currency in Europe than in the Americas,
though the extra-terrestrial hypothesis (ETH) is alive and
kicking on both sides of the Atlantic. As a result, you will see
plenty of barbs tossed 'across the pond'.

For me the safest thing to do is to view cases individually;
keeping in mind that _any_ of these hypotheses (ETH included)
may apply, or not, and that there may be still more
interpretations.

Personally, the only theories I reject out of hand are those
involving the spiritual plane, works of the devil etc. I see no
purpose in plowing those fields.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Jul > Jul 5

                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 18:00:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:14:49 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:54:12 -500
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List


 >>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >>Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Jerry, List and Readers,

 >>If any of you still have even the slightest doubt that the
 >>Sturrock panel wasn't 100% justified in re-evaluating
 >>and revising Dr. Condon's conclusions from the 1966
 >>Colorado Study, the following page recently added to
 >>my web site, may be of interest.

 >http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm

 ><snip>

 >1) Re-evaluating? First, they only heard from believers.
 >  Skeptics were not given an opportunity to present to
 >  the committee.

Bruce, I'll certainly give you an opportunity to talk about this
some more, but what difference does it make since the main
person in charge of the Colorado committee was in actuality
exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Condon was so
incredibly close-minded concerning UFOs, he basically ignored
data found by his own committee which should have indicated to
him that, by simple curiosity alone, some further study of the
topic was in order. I'll try to give him the benefit of doubt
here and simply suspect he never examined the interiors of the
report, for if he actually did, as far as I'm concerned some of
the things he said can only be viewed by any "open-minded"
person as "guilty as sin" via intentional omission.

For example, the following statement made by Condon might
appear, to an uninformed person, to tell the whole story; that
is until you click on the links I've provided and notice who
some of those witnesses were.

Condon statements: "Phenomena is often noted by a witness who is
inexpert, inept, or unduly excited."

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm#untruestatemnts

But what about those people not "inexpert" or "inept"?

If you clicked on the secondary "inexpert" and "inept" links on
the page I took you to, you may have noticed that a goodly
number of those witnesses were witnesses of the quality that the
Committee stated they were looking for, but in actuality, were
never given a chance to have their testimonies heard or examined
in any way. In case you missed it, here they are again.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm#inexpert

He also said "The reports are usually vague and inaccurate" But,
what about those reports that were not vague and inaccurate?

Here's an excerpt from 1965 Exeter case. It's an interview by
John Fuller with some case witnesses (There were a generous
number of others in that case as well.):

http://www.cohenufo.org/add.test.2.html#anchor119359

Does it take an "expert" to describe what those people
described? Were they clear in their descriptions? Were they all
in agreement as to what they saw?

or: First hand information gathered by James McDonald from the
two control towers operators from the 1957 Kirtland AFB case.
(The main witnesses no one from the Condon committee ever
bothered to contact regarding their testimony). Here are
McDonald's own words:

http://www.cohenufo.org/ocr.7b.html#kaserbrinkdescrp

Perhaps you might like to quote the criteria that the committee
used for their examination rules? However, although you may
possibly not admit it to us or yourself, it will be rather
obvious to most other people, when they think back on those
high-quality witnesses eliminated, the Colorado committee
disqualified the very witnesses they claimed they were looking
for. By their clever reasoning, not one of the above (inexpert?
Inept?) witnesses testimonies were valid for examination.

Other non-scientific reasons for disqualifying those witnesses:

Now let's see, could there have been any other reason, apart
from the "scientific", as to why they might have done this? It
couldn't have anything to do with the memo written by Robert Low
that was found and displayed for the rest of the world to see in
the New York Times, could it? The fact that they were afraid
that other scientists would laugh at them if they took the
subject seriously?

http://www.cohenufo.org/condon.html#wsullivantimes

Anything at this link that might indicate that? Anything there
that might indicate the fix was in and they really weren't
intending to do a serious study?

And if this isn't enough to convince an open-minded, rational
person this study was "just a little" biased, let's briefly
remember who was paying for the study; hmmn, the US Air Force.
Was there any possible reason _they_ might have wanted to see a
negative verdict returned from the study? Is it just possible
that Hynek was getting a little too outspoken regarding what he
had learned about UFOs and too vocal concerning his "scientific"
experience with Project Blue Book?

Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek Article

http://www.cohenufo.org/nwswk_66_hynek.html#hynk10_66nswk

Excerpts from a Hynek letter to his boss, Colonel Sleeper,
regarding Project Blue Book.

http://www.cohenufo.org/ocr.5a.html#slprlet

Ooops, how about that. Project Blue Book doesn't meet our
scientific standards either. Hynek calls their figures a
"travesty."  That sounds familiar.

 >2) The report is hardly a sweeping condemnation of
 >  Condon.

You're absolutely right... not Condon alone. You left out the
NAS who apparently never read the report in depth to make sure
the Colorado study conclusions matched its data findings.

By the way, exactly who was supposed to be able to study this in
the future if both Condon's conclusions and the NAS rubber stamp
crushed the life out of it without really giving it a fair
hearing? Where was any money at all supposed to come from? Even
a small amount? What reputable scientists would allow themselves
to become involved in any type of serious study after what they
did back then? .....and there most definitely were people who
disagreed with those conclusions; people who evaluated the
entire study and found just the opposite. They were totally
ignored along with Hynek, who had studied UFOs 20 years for the
Air Force, and James McDonald.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm#aiaadisagrcndn

Would you, even if you thought there could possibly be
something to it?

In regards to your mention below re the Stanford study's comment
concerning the Condon study:

 >"The panel also reviewed some of the conclusions
 >advanced in 1968 by Dr. Edward U. Condon, director of
 >the Colorado Project. He asserted that "nothing has
 >come from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that
 >has added to scientific knowledge," and that "further
 >extensive study of UFOs probably cannot be justified in
 >the expectation that science will be advanced thereby."

<snip>

 >"Whenever there are unexplained observations, there is
 >the possibility that scientists will learn something new by
 >studying those observations."

 >What horrible thing did the Condon study say?

Condon's pronouncement was like saying to the mother of a child
you just cut the arms off "What's wrong with that dear? Don't
worry, they'll grow back . . eventually"; and he based his
decision by only looking at 1/2 of 1% of the available evidence
(not very carefully), ignoring anything that didn't fit his
preconceived notions concerning UFOs and what the serious study
of them might do to his career.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm#casesignrd5

He said that there's nothing to learn from the study of UFOs at
all, it's not worth it. Those people that report these things,
they're all "kooks." Stay away from it or risk ridicule; the
same ridicule the heads of the Condon study were so obviously
afraid of themselves.

Not that he would have cared, but somone should have informed
Mr. Condon some of us didn't appreciate his thoughtless
categorization.

And I believe this following remark you made was concerning the
Stanford study:

 >"Therefore we think that all of the agencies of the federal
 >government, and the private foundations as well, ought to
 >be willing to consider UFO research proposals along with
 >the others submitted to them on an open-minded,
 >unprejudiced basis. While we do not think at present that
 >anything worthwhile is likely to come of such research
 >each individual case ought to be carefully considered on
 >its own merits."

 >How dastardly to suggest that UFO research proposals
 >should be considered on an open-minded and
 >unprejudiced basis! And considering each individual
 >case on its own merits! Shocking!

And who said this is a problem? I, for one, was overjoyed. I
believe intelligent researchers are thankful the Stanford
committee left the possibility open that it wasn't totally
impossible that extraordinary evidence might surface. It righted
Condon's wrong ... and long overdue. Condon not only didn't
leave it that, he never gave it a fair study. That was the
crime. The Colorado committee heads "chickened out" themselves
and took the position "it can't be, so it isn't." Pretend to
study it but show everyone we don't think it's possible. That
way we won't get laughed at.

<snip>

 >Condon wrote: "This formulation carries with it the
 >corollary that we do not think that at this time the federal
 >government ought to set up a major new agency, as
 >some have suggested, for the scientific study of UFOs.
 >This conclusion may not be true for all time. If, by the
 >progress of research based on new ideas in this field, it
 >then appears worthwhile to create such an agency, the
 >decision to do so may be taken at that time."

 >But considering that the panel wasn't allowed to hear a
 >discouraging word, perhaps it isn't time.

Well, this is your chance Bruce. We're all ears. But don't just
pick the easy or kook cases or you may fall into the Condon
boondoggle of not bothering to deal with cases with some meat to
them. Why don't you try a few on my web site first? Iran/Tehran
1976, Belgium 1989/90, Illinois 2000. Maybe it's all natural
phenomena and you'll come up with a good solution and we all can
get a good nights sleep afterwards.

While you're at it, you might possibly give Maj. Gen. W. J. L.
De Brouwer, commander of the Belgium Air Force a call and find
out what he thinks about it. Perhaps he'll make a decent witness
if he's not categorized too "inexpert", "inept", or "unduly
excited".

 >4) The report wasn't exactly complementary to UFO
 >researchers.

 >"It appears that most current UFO investigations are
 >carried out at a level of rigor that is not consistent with
 >prevailing standards of scientific research."

In Condon's case it was more like "rigor mortis" of scientific
inquisitiveness and investigatory effort on his part; and from
what I've written in this letter, perhaps other readers can see
exactly where the fault lies in regards to your previous quote.
Perhaps others on this list might like to comment on that one as
well.

Oh, by the way, it's a good thing the Condon Committee didn't
feel that way about NICAP back in 1966.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm#liedtonicap

Or are you telling me Condon and Low _were_ lying? They wouldn't
do that, would they? They were honest guys.


Respectfully,

Jerry Cohen

http://www.cohenufo.org/









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   Jul > Jul 5

                    Russia Proposes Sending Team To Mars

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:00:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:17:10 -0400
Subject: Russia Proposes Sending Team To Mars


Hello all.

As usual the Russians are the spacefaring pioneers that seems to
be in their character:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29564-2002Jul5.html

On to Mars! with the grace of God, I'll be a little younger that
John Glenn on his last trip, there _is hope_ (and maybe time for
a degree in astrophysics) <G>


GT McCoy
Frustreated Spaceman









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                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 17:46:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:20:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:44:08 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Young

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:53:34 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>It was at that time that Rickett saw a large crash
 >>recovery operation


 >A Roswell Myth detail first invented by Frank Edwards in the mid
 >50's for his exciting flying saucer lectures, then repeated in
 >his 1967 pot-boiler, "Flying Saucers Serious Business."

 >See my "Frank Edwards and the Roswell Crash":

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/dec/m30-014.shtml

So Rickett heard Edward's flying saucer lectures and only
thought he witnessed and participated in the crash recovery
operation?  Same apparently with the fantasies of an actual
crash told by Marcel, Exon, Brazel Jr.,  Marcel Jr., etc., plus
various witnesses to the military cordon thrown up around the
area.  All such fantasies result from Frank Edwards.

This whole theory of yours is apparently based on the newspapers
not using the word "crash" to describe the original event.
Edwards was the villian to associate the word "crash" with
Roswell and everybody followed like sheep after him.

Boy, that's about as dumb a theory as you've ever thrown out
there Bob, even by your usually low standards.  Do you even
believe half the stuff you write?

 >Have a nice day,

 >Bob Young

You too Bob. However, you've left out your usual sign-off of
"Clear skies", always followed by my usual snide parody of
"Clear thinking."  Nonetheless:


Clear thinking,

David Rudiak








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   Jul > Jul 6

                  Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 23:41:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:42:34 -0400
Subject: Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:52:03 -0500
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:08:31 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >>>>Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >I have no doubt that you saw something, Jerry (as I also
 >shared my own sightings with you via private E-mail).

I remember.

 >I happen to think UFOs exist. I just don't think most
 >people would know a real UFO from a man-made one
 >due to the amount of deception going on.

 >This is why I advocate being skeptical and very careful
 >about what you believe. Things are not as they seem.

They never are.

Amy, I agree with you. Through all the years regarding UFOs, the
only thing I trusted was my own eyes and ears and whatever
analysis I could do. I know that the analysis part is certainly
going to be imperfect, but I can not think of any time in my
entire life when my eyes and ears together ever relayed what was
not so.


Regards,

Jerry










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   Jul > Jul 6

               MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO Symposium

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 06:53:03 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:44:14 -0400
Subject: MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO Symposium


Source: RNews, Rochester, New York,

http://www.rnews.com/Story.cfm?ID=3D5568&rnews_story_type=3D18

Stig

***

Saturday, July 6, 2002

Thinking About UFOs

by Cristina Domingues

photo by Josh Morrell

***

Today is the first day of the 33rd annual International UFO
Symposium in downtown Rochester.

Hundreds of members of the Mutual UFO Network, MUFON, are coming
to talk about their latest discoveries or experiences with UFOs
or extra terrestrials.

Friday, they held a workshop on how to interview people who
believe they've seen a UFO.

"About 20 percent of the stuff is credible but the rest of the
time we're figuring out planets and stars and satellites and all
kinds of stuff people mistook," said Dan Wright, who taught the
workshop.

Despite the fact some may not believe in UFOs or E.T.s, people
at the conference say they're looking for the truth.

"A lot of people dismiss it out of hand and some after maybe
reading one book, but after you've read enough literature on
this, it pounds it into your head that something's going on,"
said MUFON member Carl Feindt.

There are lectures scheduled all weekend and plenty of books on
hand about the subject.

**

Copyright =A9 2002 Time Warner Cable. All Rights Reserved









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   Jul > Jul 6

              Bassett Most Important Environmental Candidate In

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:25:15 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:46:03 -0400
Subject: Bassett Most Important Environmental Candidate In


Source: EcoLynx.com via the Environmental News Network,

http://www.enn.com/direct/display-release.asp?id=3D7256

Stig

***

Is Stephen Bassett the most important environmental candidate in
the coming election?

 >From EcoLynx.com

Friday, July 05, 2002

**

DANIA BEACH, FL =97 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

by S. Michael Hoke
EcoLynx.com

*

With the help of an all volunteer staff of activists, Stephen
Bassett's Disclosure 2003 campaign is petitioning the citizens
of Maryland's 8th congressional district for a place on this
November's ballot. He is thus positioning himself as an
independent swing vote candidate in what is widely regarded as
one of the most important congressional races in the U.S.

While the Disclosure2003 positions on the environment have yet
to be published to the campaign website, there are some profound
implications to the environmental debate embedded in the core
issue being raised by the campaign - "disclosure" - the formal
acknowledgement by the United States government of an
extraterrestrial presence. Bassett is convinced 2003 represents
the first real window of opportunity for the government to end
the UFO/ET cover-up since1947.

Look inside the "politics of disclosure," and in due course you
bump up against the matter of technologies reverse engineered
from the wreckage of extraterrestrial spacecraft such as the one
recovered in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. What are the
propulsion and energy systems of these craft? The issue of
extraterrestrial technology transfer received its greatest
national exposure with the publishing in 1997 of The Day After
Roswell by Lt. Col. Philip Corso. Recently it has been more
fully developed by Dr. Steven Greer's Disclosure Project. Please
see a previous EcoLynx.com press release, Declassification of
technology may hold key to global warming, for elaboration on
this point. (See also Dr.Steven M. Greer named environmental
steward of the year - 2001.)

Bassett is the only lobbyist in Washington DC registered to
represent UFO/ET research/activist organizations. He has often
assisted the efforts of the Disclosure Project, which is working
with former military and agency personnelwilling to testify
under oath before Congress regarding their first hand encounters
with extraterrestrial events and evidence. Their ranks include
the likes of Five Star Admiral Lord Hill Norton (former British
Minister of Defense), astronaut Gordon Cooper, Brig. Gen.
Stephen Lovekin, Col. Ross Dedrickson, and Lt. Col. Philip
Corso. Although Lt. Col. Corso died in 1998, his video taped
testimony is corroborated by many other Disclosure Project
witnesses, (e.g., the testimony of astronaut Gordon Cooper, Sgt.
Clifford Stone, Col. Ross Dedrickson, Chief Master Sgt. Daniel
Salter, and Capt. Robert Salas, among others.) Lt. Col. Corso
served on the staff of President Dwight D. Eisenhower's National
Security Council, and as an advisor to Gen. MacArthur in Korea.
He also served as a senior level intelligence officer at the
Pentagon for many years. The number of potential witnesses who
have come forward now exceeds 400.

Attorney Daniel Sheehan, who prosecuted the Kerr McGee nuclear
facility on behalf of Karen Silkwood's family and defended the
New York Times in the Pentagon Papers case, will serve as chief
counsel for the Disclosure Project. This is a very serious
effort on the part of serious and credible witnesses.

Will disclosure lead to the declassification of "zero point
energy" (sometimes called "free energy" systems) and advanced
propulsion systems? If they exist (and there is evidence they
do) these technologies could have profound impact on the most
important environmental issues affecting the planet. If
declassified and used toward peaceful ends, they might afford a
viable alternative to fossil fuels, and thus a definitive
solution to global warming. Again, for elaboration on this
point, please see Declassification of technology may hold key to
global warming. Anyone doubting the legitimacy or reality of
this technology would do well to take a look at US Patent No.
6,362,718, entitled Motionless Electromagnetic Generator, issued
to Disclosure Project witness Col. Thomas E. Bearden, Ph.D., and
his colleagues May 26, 2002. Issuance of a patent, however, is a
far cry from full disclosure of the technologies in question, so
open Congressional hearings are therefore imperative. Stephen
Bassett's candidacy could well play an essential role in
obtaining these long overdue hearings.

A hint of Bassett's concern for environmental issues is evident
in the "Legislation Test" outlined on his Disclosure2003 site:

Stephen Bassett's Legislation Test:


Any Act of Congress, past or future, must pass the following
test. The answer to these four questions must be 'no.'
Otherwise, such legislation should be reformed, revoked or not
passed into law.

Does it harm the welfare of children within or outside the
United States?

Does it harm the welfare of poor, disadvantaged peoples within
or outside the US?

Does it harm the environment within or outside the United
States?

Does it reduce trust in the United States of America?


Source: the Disclosure2003 website.

Last year, Bassett assisted the Disclosure Project in organizing
a press conference at the National Press Club, May 9, 2001.
Since then, the Disclosure Project has identified an additional
119 witnesses including astronauts, fighter pilots, and military
intelligence officers. Another such press conference has been
tentatively scheduled by the Disclosure Project, again at The
National Press Club, sometime around September of 2002. Coming
as it will on the heels of this press conference, the inclusion
of Stephen Bassett's name on this November's ballot could mark
the beginning of the end of secrecy surrounding some of the most
profoundly important events in human history, and should prove
invaluable in maintaining momentum toward the important goal of
Congressional hearings on these issues.

As of June 30, 2002, the Disclosure2003 campaign had secured
2419 nominating signatures for Bassett's inclusion on this
November's ballot, well over half of the 3700 required by law.
Although Bassett is confident he can obtain the balance of the
signatures required by the August 5, 2002 deadline, your support
is urgently needed to ensure the success of this important
campaign.

What you can do to help:

Maryland residents: The critical need now is for volunteers to
collect candidate petition signatures and place door hangers.
Anyone residing in Maryland's 8th congressional district is
encouraged to volunteer for the campaign, and, if a registered
voter, sign the petition for Bassett's candidacy, which is
available at the website. See Disclosure2003.

Input and assistance from anyone with national election
experience, who is drawn to the issues presented in this
campaign, would also be welcome.

Citizens residing outside Maryland: Citizens outside of Maryland
can best help via financial contributions (maximum of $1,000 per
US citizen) or by writing the Washington media and asking for
fair and balanced coverage of Disclosure2003. See
Disclosure2003.

For further information:

4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814

Phone: (301) 990-4290
Cell: (202) 431-2459-
Fax: (301) 990-0199
E-mail: Disclosure2003@aol.com
Web site: www.disclosure2003.net


For more information, contact:

Stephen Bassett
Director, Disclosure2003
Disclosure2003
(301) 990-4290
Disclosure2003@aol.com
Web site: http://www.Disclosure2003.net

**

ENN is a registered trademark of the Environmental News Network Inc.
Copyright =A9 2001 Environmental News Network Inc.







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   Jul > Jul 6

                       Betty Hill On MUFON Convention

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:39:52 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:46:54 -0400
Subject: Betty Hill On MUFON Convention


Source: Rochester Democrat and Chronicle,

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/news/0705story012114
_news.shtml

Stig

***

UFOlogists land in Rochester

By Greg Livadas
Democrat and Chronicle

**

(July 5, 2002) =97 Hundreds of people looking for answers from UFO
reports are meeting in Rochester this weekend for the Mutual UFO
Network's 33rd annual international convention.

Authors exploring alien phenomena, video experts and Betty Hill,
"one of the first documented abductees," will gather to discuss
the latest reports and theories.

"UFOs have been something of interest since World War II," said
Tom Nesser, of Greece. "A group of scientists and researchers is
trying to get to the bottom of it to see if there is anything to
it or if it's just a bunch of baloney."

The conference is taking place at the Hyatt Regency downtown.

[Photo by DANESE KENON: During the MUFON press conference Friday
at the downtown Rochester Hyatt Hotel, Don Ledger, an author,
researcher, and pilot, describes a UFO sighting.]

**

[Author's] E-mail address: glivadas@democratandchronicle.com

**

Copyright 2002 Rochester Democrat and Chronicle








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               Re: Visitors Flock To Roswell's UFO Festival -

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:52:48 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:48:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Visitors Flock To Roswell's UFO Festival -


Source: Roswell Daily Record, July 5, 2002,

http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/070502/news01.html

Stig

***

Visitors flock to 'Alien Nation'

Andrew Poertner
Record Managing Editor

**

More than a half century later, Roswell's claim to fame remains
its 1947 UFO Incident and it's still packing in the tourists.

The city's fifth annual UFO Festival got into full swing
Thursday as thousands of tourists hit the city to learn more
about extraterrestrials, buy up a variety of UFO memorabilia and
trinkets and just plain have a good time.

Kicking off the festival was a ribbon cutting ceremony at the
Roswell Convention and Civic Center. Present were
representatives from city government, the Roswell Chamber of
Commerce, Roswell Hispano Chamber of Commerce and the UFO
Committee.

City Councilor Judy Stubbs addressed the crowd saying "Have a
good time and thank you for coming here and helping us celebrate
our history."

Ray Baca, CEO of the Hispano Chamber of Commerce, kept his
remarks short and simple.

"Welcome, enjoy yourselves and have a good UFO weekend."

Roswell Chamber of Commerce chief executive officer Shawn Hughes
said the UFO Festival is a fun event that plays an important
economic role for the city. Hughes said the festival attracts
people from across the nation, people who might relocate here,
start a business here or just spread the word that Roswell is a
good place to live and work.

"This is kind of the flagship event for the local tourism
industry," Hughes said. "It gives them a reason to make Roswell
a destination, not just a point of transition" to other tourism
stops in the area.

"You've got to get them here before you really get them hooked,"
Hughes concluded.

Throughout the day visitors stopped by the civic center to check
out the Alien Market Trade Show. While not all the items at the
show were alien-related, there was a wide variety of alien
merchandise for sale. Customers could purchase alien buttons,
clothing, pens, inflatable aliens and even alien drinking cups
to quench their thirst.

Tourists also descended en masse on the International UFO Museum
and Research Center. Julie Shuster, head of the museum, said an
hour before closing on Thursday the center had received about
1,500 visitors.

"It's nuts, but it's fun," Shuster said. Some of our staff are
getting tuckered and it's just the first day."

In addition to its normal exhibits, the UFO Museum is also
hosting a series of lectures on the UFO phenomenon and there are
a number of science fiction writers conducting book signings.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:59:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:52:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:04:39 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson


 >Flight #4 is a convenient modern-day scapegoat for the Roswell
 >crash because there is _no data_ on it to tell us exactly how
 >it was configured when it was launched, what direction it
 >headed, how long it was airborne, how high it got, or where it
 >ended up.

But there is far more information about Flight #4 than exists
for an "Alien Disk". Unlike many Roswell issues, there is some
documentation. Like Flight #4 did take off on June 4. They also
know that Rawins were part of the load transported to Alamogordo
(now why did they take those along?). Radar tracking was
abandoned early on- as a result of the initial flights. They
know that they used neoprene balloons. They have meteorological
data that can be used not only to predict the probable flight
path of #4, but also to verify the assumptions used by comparing
computer simulations against actual recorded flights.

All of this can be used to verify several 40 year old memories-
  the same kind of memories that proponents have to depend upon.
But, unlike the memories of "memory foil", these memories can be
verified with the written record.

<snip>

 >>(Entry for Jun 4, 1947)"...Flew regular sono buoy up in cluster
 >>of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on
 >>plane."

 >>Actually, Moore used Crary's diary to refresh his memory,
 >>because Moore didn't know what date it went up. He just knew
 >>there was a missing N.M. Mogul flight in the records between
 >>flight #3 in New Jersey and Flight #5 in N.M. on July 5, and
 >>had some vague memories about it.

 >Which is more than Jessie Sr. could initially remember. At the
 >first interviews, he could not even remember the year of his
 >story-of-the-century find. If Moore's memory of an insignificant
 >event is to be questioned on this basis, why aren't you
 >questioning Marcel's?

Marcel has the corroboration of other witnesses on key points,
such as the physical properties of anomalous debris he reported,
and the cover-up in Fort Worth. There is even some documentary
backing. E.g., Marcel 30 years later spoke of the debris being
scattered over a square mile of the ranch. Newspaper articles in
1947 quote Marcel saying the same thing. No Mogul could produce
anything remotely close to that much littering, and it certainly
is out of whack with the other newspaper articles of not that
much debris being found.

But Moore's reconstruction of Flight #4's trajectory has a
number of assumptions with nothing and nobody to back them up.
He claims, e.g., to remember them tracking the balloons over the
Capitan mountains and losing contact with them near Arabella. He
uses that as a fixed data point in his reconstruction of the
flight characteristics, but it's really nothing more than his
memory.

And his memory hasn't stayed fixed. For years he assumed the
flight was launched after dawn like most of the other Mogul
flights. But when he realized he needed to keep #4 up a lot
longer than these post-dawn flights to get it to the Foster
ranch, he scrambled for a reason to make the flight much
earlier.

 >>Furthermore, the sentence immediately before the above entry,
 >>has Crary stating, "No balloon flight again on account of
 >>clouds." That confuses the situation considerably, because then
 >>Crary says they sent something up anyway.

 >Yep- sometimes the weather just has this habit of changing on
 >you.

Now we get to the nub of this particular assumption. Crary at
first wrote that the flight was cancelled _again_ on account of
clouds. And if you go to the previous days entry, he notes that
the scheduled flight for June 3 was cancelled period because of
clouds.

But then Crary wrote they sent the balloons with sonobuoy up
anyway on June 4. But when? On June 3 he wrote they were up at
2:30 am to fly the balloon before cancellation. You could
reasonably assume the same thing for June 4, but Crary wrote
they cancelled, at least at first, on account of more cloudy
weather.

Moore tries to argue that it cleared later, so they sent the
balloons up then. That seems reasonable, but exactly when did it
clear? He's on much shakier ground here.

He notes, e.g, the Alamogordo station only had data for 7:30 am,
noting two-tenths scattered altocumulous clouds. El Paso noted
two-tenths cloud coverage through 2:30 am, after which it more
or less cleared. But El Paso was 90 miles to the south, so even
with the winds blowing the clouds at 30 mph from the southwest ,
there would be at least a 3 hour delay before clearing. Yet it
was still partly cloudy in Alamogordo at 7:30 am.

Moore also mentions Columbus, N.M., SW of Alamamordo, but
directly upwind from Alamogordo since the winds were blowing
from the southwest. Columbus had 40% coverage through about
11:15 pm, June 3, but this nearly disappeared by 2:10 am June 4.
But Columbus was about 130 miles away, and like El Paso, there
would be a delay if try to extrapolate cloud coverage from one
place to another.

(These delays because of distance are important, but as we shall
see in a minute, Moore completely ignores them.)

We know it was still partly cloudy in Alamogordo by 7:30 am. If
it cleared, it was after that. This suggests at least a 6 hour
delay in cloud patterns if we try to extrapolate from Columbus
to Alamogordo. Therefore, if it was 40% coverage in Columbus at
11:00 pm, there would be 40% at 5 a.m. in Alamogordo, thereafter
dropping to 20% by 7:30 am, and maybe clearing after 8 a.m. The
40% at 5 am or earlier would be enough to cancel the flight, but
with partial clearing _after_ this by around 7:30.

If if we push things a bit and assume a much shorter delay, like
3 hours (meaning the clouds blowing through at over 40 mph),
then Alamogordo would have 40% cloud coverage at 2:15 am --
  cancel the flight -- and not clearing out until around 5:00 am
-- the usual post dawn Mogul flight.

Now this is my reasoning process based on what Moore provides.
But what does Moore say about this?

"There are, of course, many uncertainties associated with this
analysis of the 4 June events. The launching time is not known,
but given that Crary's diary shows that he was ready for the
launching soon after midnight on 3 June, and given that the
clouds that caused the launch delay went away at around 2:30 MST
on 4 June, I am sure that we would have launched as rapidly as
possible thereafter."

Now pardon me for questioning Moore again. I know I'm not
worthy. But there are two very obvious mistakes here. One is
Moore's statement that Crary "was read for the launching soon
after midnight on 3 June." What Crary's diary actually says is
"Up at 2:30 am ready to fly balloon."

Moore then claims that the clouds "went away at around 2:30 MST
on 4 June." Yes, they "went away" in El Paso and Columbus at
around that time. But Moore is ignoring the obvious fact that
there would be a several hour delay before the same would happen
downwind in Alamogordo.

So Moore is playing fast and loose again with the little
documentation he has. Moore then states another assumption about
the launch time, which further indicates he is relying solely on
his memory and wishful thinking here:

"My memory of the tracking of the balloon train to the vicinity
of Arabela places another constraint on the timing: the only
winds during this expedition that could have carried the
balloons to the northeast toward Arabela occured on 3 June and
early on 4 June."

So in summary, even though the _actual_ weather data doesn't
really support his statement that it had cleared by 2:30 am and
probably not until at least several hours later, he still
assumes they launched shortly after 2:30 am. Why? For two
reasons. 1) He had to assume the flight was much longer than the
other flights to get it to the ranch, requiring he keep the
neoprene balloons for several hours out of the sunlight, and 2)
The winds were wrong later and he was literally forcing the
trajectory to match his ancient memories of what happened. He
actually says as much.

 >>>Moore's recollections, given _before_ the diary was found, fit
 >>>Crary's entry.

 >>Sorry, Moore didn't recall the date

 >And Marcel could not even recall the year.

Like who cares? The discussion was Moore's assumptions, based on
Moore's memory, not Marcel's. I notice you always seem to change
the subject when you are shown to be wrong.

 >>and Crary's diary says nothing about radar reflectors or radar
 >>tracking, which Moore claims was also used. Aside from this one
 >>man's 40+ year-old memory of this, there is no evidence that
 >>radar was used on this flight. Maybe it was, but there is no
 >>record of it.

 >But they planned to try and use the radar and that was the
 >reason that they acquired the radar targets.

Moore's memory again.

 > More than one man remembers the radar targets.

On Flight #4? I think not. And Flight's 5 and 6, the only other
June flights, show no indication of using radar targets either
in their engineering schematics or flight summaries. The only
early Mogul with clear indications of radar tracking was #8 in
early July.

 >The failure of radar tracking Moore remembers

Again, only Moore's memory.

 > accounts for the Rawins,

But nothing to document their use in June.

 > as well as the fact that they eventually dropped the idea.

Apparently, judging by absence of their mention of tracking in
most subsequent Moguls. But #8 used them on July 3. But no
mention of them in June.

I also find it rather odd that they would simply abandon the
idea after only one failure, assuming that is what happened with
Flight #4. Normally you try to analyze what went wrong and then
try again after making adjustments, not throw up your hands and
immediately give up.

Radar tracking would have had some definite advantages, such as
giving a direct readout of the balloons azimuth, elevation, and
distance, rather than having to triangulate these through
theodolite and radiosonde reception from multiple stations and
then do a lot of data reduction. So why would they have given up
so quickly on the radar?

 >"Attempts to use radar mounted atop aircraft for aerial
 >observation have been abandoned in favor of the radio compass"
 >(Project Operations Report 1/31/49. co-authored by Moore)

 >Do you think that this would have been mentioned if they had not
 >been attempting tracking by aircraft radar?

Gee, what's the date Bruce? 1949, isn't it? What's this have to
do with June 1947, when you claim that Crary's diary indicates
airplane radar tracking of Flight #4? According to the
unquestionable Moore, Crary was talking about sonobuoy
reception, not radar.

 >>>At least there _is_ a record- writen, verified as authentic,
 >>>and very solid.

 >>Yes authentic, but what exactly do you mean by "solid?" There
 >>is almost no detail about the flight here. It gives the date,
 >>but not the time, a little bit about the configuration (balloon
 >>array and sonobuoy) but nothing else. Certainly nothing about
 >>radar tracking, direction, flight time, or impact point

 >Yet it is solid that they launched a flight. It is solid that
 > tracking was poor.

You just don't give up, do you, no matter how wrong you are?
According to Moore, Crary's written record says the sonobuoy
reception on the following plane was poor. It says nothing about
the actual trajectory tracking, which was something else
entirely.

 >It is solid that they eventually abandoned radar.

Yes, but this tells us nothing about whether radar was being
used to track #4. Most of these early Moguls show no indication
of being tracked by radar.

 >Compared to what is often accepted as evidence of a saucer
crash,>this event has an amazingly solid foundation.

Definition of "solid foundation": They launched the balloons.
That's about it.

 >>>Moore came along a few years ago and ran an analysis based on
 >>>data obtained from the weather service about upper level wind
 >>>currents back in 1947. Based upon that analysis Moore was able
 >>>to get the alleged balloon/instrument package to approx 17
 >>>milesof the ranch.

 >>On the other hand, Moore's "analysis" makes a multitude of
 >>_assumptions_ so that Flight #4 would drop on top of Mack
 >>Brazel's head.

 >All simulations make a multitude of assumptions.

True. But the question is are the assumptions reasonable or are
they artificial or forced? Moore uses lots of very questionable
assumptions. Lots of such assumptions makes for even more
questionable conclusions.

Maybe it's time to list all the various assumptions Moore uses
to get the balloons up the the Brazel ranch. Remember, he needs
all of them to make the trajectory work.

1. Despite lack of corroborating weather information, assumes
nightime instead of the usual after-dawn launch so that he can
catch the right winds and keep the balloons up longer.

2. Winds aloft could be accurately predicted at points afar in
time and distance based on limited weather information from a
station 30 miles south of Alamogordo.

3. Despite stating his assumption that #4 was their best flight,
uses an abnormally fast rise time so the balloons won't fly too
far to the northeast initially. This has a significant affect on
where the balloons end up.

4. Despite using a night launch, fails to correct for loss of
buoyancy from lack of sun heating that would have occurred with
a daylight launch. This should have slowed the ascent slightly.
Not a biggie, but probably affects drift in tropospheric high
winds by a few minutes, pushing the balloons a few miles further
beyond where he has them.

5. Assumes balloons entered the stratosphere so they could catch
slower winds taking them back to the west. Badly needs this
assumption, or the balloons end up hundreds of miles away to the
northeast.

6. Assumes balloons stayed up much longer in the stratosphere
than any of the other neoprene Moguls so they could drift very
far to the west (part of assumption 1). Needs this to line up
the balloons for their final plunge to the northeast on descent.
Also assumes stratospheric winds carrying the balloons somewhat
back to the south over a very prolonged period, unsupported,
e.g., by the stratospheric winds of Flight #5 the next day,
which drifted a little bit north in addition to west. These
multiple assumptions, lumped as one, have a very significant
effect on final crash site.

7. Assumes altitudes in the stratosphere unsupported by any
actual data. Part of this is to justify the balloons drifting
back to the south rather than the north, like #5. Alters the
actual recorded Flight #5 stratospheric tracking data to try to
support this, saying he knows better now what happened.

8. Has no stratospheric wind data for #4 on June 4. But uses
slightly inflated wind speeds for #4 over what he actually
calculates for #5, carrying the balloons a little further west
and south than they would have otherwise. Also uses wind
directions to take the balloons further south than justified
from the #5 data set. More multiple assumptions here. We'll just
call it one. Also has significant effects on final crash site.

9. Interpolates between wind data sets of Orogrande weather
station from 9 a.m. June 3 and June 4 for a 3 am launch. But 7
hours later when he has the balloons coming down, he is still
using his interpolated 3 am winds, instead of switching to the
later Orogrande weather set when the winds were slightly greater
on average and beginning to shift to a more easterly direction.
Not a biggie in terms of final crash site, but still affects
things by a few miles, and definitely questionable.

10. In its final death plunge to the ground after descending out
of the stratosphere, assumes a much faster fall time than any of
the other neoprene Moguls, contradicting his assumption again
that this was their best flight. Should have used an average or
the time of #5 on which the cutoff equipment performed properly.
Has very significant effects on final crash site.

Well, that's at least 10 of Moore's assumptions off the top of
my head, most of them major with very significant effects on
trajectory.

E.g., as I've pointed out elsewhere, if Moore had stuck to the
actual Mogul data set and used reasonable values for the drop
time instead of a contrived one, the balloons would have badly
overshot the ranch.

Even the less important assumptions count. A few miles here or
there with each one can begin to add up to significant miles
overall.

Let's assume the Moore has, on average, a 50:50 chance of being
right on any of these assumptions. That's probably being
generous, but I'm merely illustratng a point here. I'm also
assuming all assumptions are equally important, though this
isn't true either. But he does need all these assumptions to
varying degrees to get the balloons to the ranch.

So what's a rough probability of this all happening by chance,
i.e., he guessed right on all of his assumptions? The odds are
very roughly 1 in 2^10, or 1 in a 1000. Those are very long odds
indeed. The odds definitely favor the balloons coming down
somewhere else.

E.g., alter assumptions #3 and #9 to the values of the
successful Flight #5, and leave the other assumptions unaltered
(assumed to be correct) and the balloons overshoot the ranch by
about 60 miles using Moore's own model.

 >Charles Moore made a number of assumptions based on many years
of>experience, detailed knowledge of balloons and weather
systems,>and years on the NYU project.

Your usual appeal to authority. Moore is not to be questioned?

Many of Moore's assumptions have nothing to do with his
background or experience. He just pulls them out of a hat so he
can get the balloons to the ranch.

 >And being a careful scientist, Moore checked
 >his assumptions and simulations by using the known flight paths
 >of two other balloons, and those checked out rather well.

Again this assertion. Please back it up by pointing us where
Moore did this, i.e. used weather data from the Orogrande
station and predicted those two flights "rather well." It
certainly is not in his book.

 >This prediction of the probable flight path of #4 has far more
 >credence than most aspects of the Roswell Saga.

It's actually highly improbable given the number of questionable
assumptions Moore has to make so that it will work. Go back and
look at the list.

But I guess Moore is infallible, right? More of your authority
worship. And if you continue to call it "the probable flight
path", that will make it so.

 >>However, Moore does note that if he changed just one of his
 >>assumptions, the balloon could also have ended up about 150
 >>miles away:

 >>(p. 93) "If the balloons had not entered the stratosphere but
 >>had continued in the upper troposphere, _they would have passed
 >>17 miles south of the actual landing site and would have landed
 >>more than 150 miles to the east at the end of the[assumed]
 >>343-minute flight."

 >Whoa there David. We are talking here about Flight #4, not #5.
 >On your cited page, Moore discussed Flight #5, which
 >incidentally, did not end up in Kansas.

You are correct that he is talking about #5, but his statement
that if the balloon didn't enter the stratosphere it would have
ended up far, far away applies in spades to his hypothetical
Flight #4. You see, Moore assumes that #4 was twice as long up
in the stratosphere as #5 (see assumption #5 above). If, Moore
didn't get it up to the stratosphere, tropospheric winds would
have carried it about twice as far downrange as #5, or closer to
300 miles away. That would indeed take it into Kansas.

<snip>

 >>>However, if
 >>>you would like to get another opinion, you can get the weather
 >>>service data from Kevin Randle. He is the one who gave the
 >>>data to Prof Moore.

 >>Not necessary. Any critical analysis of Moore's model creates
 >>holes big enough to fly a fleet of flying saucers through.

 >Lets be honest here, David. A valid critical analysis of Moore's
 >assumptions and the simulation of flight #4 would assume the
 >critic had the education, knowledge and experience to adequately
 >address any problems he might have with Moore's assumptions,
 >methods and conclusions.

Let's be honest here, Bruce. You are a flunkee who simply mouths
the skeptical arguments of others. You don't know what you are
talking about and are unable to answer my criticisms of Moore's
methods in any reasonable way, so you are simply trying to
create another diversion.

One doesn't even need expertise in the weather to see the flaws
in Moore's arguments. Let his weather assumptions stand and
there are still at least a half a dozen others that are
questionable that have nothing to do with weather charts, such
as time of launch, time aloft, rise time, fall time, altitudes,
etc.

 >So your remark is just an attempt to fend off what appears to
 >damaging evidence with an airy wave of the hand.

Psychological projection again. You're the one waving your hands
and blowing smoke. I've actually analyzed his data, charted it,
entered into a spreadsheet and rerun it, and he is very
obviously using a carefully selected set of assumptions.

Just because Moore uses tables of numbers (ooooh, scary stuff),
doesn't mean he is immune from criticism. Until now, Moore
hasn't undergone any peer review.

Peer review: that's that thing where other people with adequate
background go over somebody elses work to see if it is valid.
Moore's arguments aren't all that complicated to understand.
Anybody with a spreadsheet can redo his calculations and see
what happens if other assumptions were used, such as normal rise
and fall times instead of the overly fast ones he uses.

I can determine such things as normal rise and fall times by
looking at published Mogul data. When I do that, I can see that
Moore is using obviously questionable numbers. Why should his
model Mogul #4, e.g., fall to ground much faster than any of the
other actual neoprene Moguls whose trajectories are known? This
is especially true after Moore states that he is assuming that
#4 used the best equipment and was highly successful.

When you go back to his model, it is obvious to anybody with
half a brain that a more normal fall time would cause the
balloons to badly overshoot the ranch. It's simple middle school
math. Sorry you didn't get that far.

 > Sorry, but that
 > won't work. Moore tested his assumptions against two other
 > flights, and found them valid. You, on the other hand, simply
 >waved your hand as your credentials.

Here yet again is one of many of your claims that Moore has
tested his theory against two other flights, but nobody I know
have has even seen such an analysis. Perhaps you can tell us
where it is?

And again, you are the one waving your hands in a feeble attempt
to defend Moore. If Moore has a sound, robust theory that
predicts a crash in the immediate Foster ranch area using
consistent, reasonable, well-stated assumptions, the theory will
need no huffing and puffing from you to defend it.

If, on the other hand, Moore is using some assumptions that are
way over the top thus making a Foster ranch crash highly
improbable, then it is more than fair game to reanalyze what he
has done and point this out.

Peer review, you know.

<snip>
 >>Now where in the world did you get the idea this was referring
 >>to radar tracking by the bomber? The only radar tracking was
 >>by _ground_ radar from Alamagordo. Of the 5 early recorded
 >> in June/July 1947, the only one with any indication of radar
 >>tracking in the Mogul summaries was the first polyethylene
 >>balloon flight, #8, on July 3.

 >Two reasons - many Air Force bombers were fitted with radar
 >>(Marcel received training in these units). Given the limited
 >range of ground radar, airborne units were one way to use this
 >technology, as the purpose was to eventually send these systems
 >over long distances.

There is zero evidence that any aerial radar was used for
tracking in June/July 1947. Not even Moore says that.

I see that in your fervid quest for truth, you snipped out my
quote from Moore that the reception problems on the plane
referred to in Crary's short diary account of this flight was
referring to sonobuoy transmitter reception and had nothing to
do with radar tracking by the plane.

Yet you have used the Crary quote as so-called "documentation"
that Flight #4 was tracked by radar. Since Moore, according to
you, is an unquestionable authority figure on all things Mogul,
maybe you should pay attention to what he is saying here instead
of waving your hands some more and trying to tap dance your way
out of an embarrassing spot.

 >Rawins were brought along for the purpose of radar tracking, and
 >Moore remembers that one of the purposes of the early flights
 >was to test this kind of technology.

Maybe, maybe not. The only record of radar tracking on any of
these early Moguls was Flight #8 in early July, but nothing for
June 1947. That's a fact.

<snip>

 >>Furthermore, Moore's explanation for the lack of records on
 >>Flight #4 is that they had _no tracking data_. If they had
 >>been tracking the balloon visually by theodolite (Moore's
 >>memory) and by radar (again Moore's memory, not documented in
 >>Crary's diary), then why the complete absence of tracking data
 >>that caused Flight #4 to be thrown out of Mogul records?

 >Because they were supposed to be tracking by radar since the
 >Theodolite couldn't track it far enough? Remember that they were
 >using sounding balloons, not pibald balloons that were designed
 >to be tracked by theodolite.

What the hell are you talking about? They were also tracking
balloon trains 600 feet in length, remember? It's a slightly
bigger target than a little 100 gm pibald.

Furthermore, Moore stated in his AF interview they capable of
tracking with theodolite up to 100 miles (see below), whereas
they lost contact with #4 (according to his memory) about 70
miles from Alamogordo.

Another part of Moore's supposed ancient memory of the Flight #4
was one of his colleagues tracking #4 through a theodolite in
the bright early morning sun while it was over the Capitan
mountains. That's one reason he fudges his recreated trajectory
to take #4 directly over the Capitan mountains.

A very good example of how successful they were with theodolite
tracking was Flight #5 the very next day. Maybe you should look
at the actual Mogul records on this point instead of making
inane statements.

The Mogul summary sheet states they tracked #5 for 90% of its
flight using theodolites, losing sight of it somewhere in the
vicinity of Roswell, about 100 miles distant. (#5 crashed about
20 miles east of Roswell).

So they were highly successful with theodolite tracking, Moore
claims he remembers them tracking #4 in the morning over the
Capitans, about 70 miles away, yet there is no tracking data?
Why not? There would be no reason to toss it out, even an
incomplete set, since it would still contain valuable
information.

In the end, the plain and simple fact is that there is no
tracking data to document exactly where #4 did go.

<snip>

 >>It's not just Moore's use and interpretation of meteorological
 >>records that is in question. It's other assumptions about
 >>launch time, rise time, altitude, and flight time, for which
 >>there is _no data._ It's all educated guesswork and assumptions
 >>on Moore's part. To think that you could place the balloon with
 >>a high level confidence to within even 17 miles of the ranch is
 >>indeed "wishful thinking." Or perhaps it is more a matter of a
 >>lack of critical thinking.

 >First, lets place a little emphasis on "educated guesswork".
 >Moore was there, and knew the flight characteristics, and the
 >procedures and process far better than you. He is thus in an
 >excellent position to make these "guesses" with a high
 >expectation that they are reasonably correct. You have no such
 >background and capability.

The usual debunking appeal to authority.  It is not a matter of
Moore making assumptions, as long as they are clearly stated and
at least somewhat reasonable.

But the fact of the matter is many of Moore's assumptions are
highly questionable and obviously designed solely to get his
Mogul up to Brazel's place. I have gone into a great deal of
detail on these questionable assumptions here and elsewhere.

E.g., Moore states that he is assuming Flight #4 used their best
equipment and outperformed the very successful #5 the next day.
OK, but then he chooses rise and fall times that are abnormally
short given this assumption, which could only be if some of the
equipment was faulty. So Moore is using contradictory
assumptions. The fall time in particular is much shorter than
any of the other three known neoprene balloon flights. (He
doesn't even openly state this assumption. It is carefully
hidden in his table of data.)

Could you please explain to us uneddicated folk why Moore should
have any reason for "a high expectation of being reasonably
correct" with such an assumption?

He is using a value well outside the range of the known data
set.  If he doesn't have his Mogul drop this fast, it is going
to badly overshoot the Foster Ranch. That's just a mathematical
FACT of his own model.

If he was modeling #4 as being as least as successful as #5,
then a far more reasonable assumption would be to have #4
descend in a similar fashion to #5, or an average of the 3 known
balloons, which was about the same. If that were the case, then
#4 would have overshot the ranch by 35 to 40 miles, leaving all
his other assumptions untouched.

But since you have obviously elevated Moore to the position of
Balloon God, who am I or any other mortal to question him --
  right Bruce?

<snip>

 >Even still more amusing is you accepting Marcel, despite his
 >being totally unable to even remember the _year_ of The
 >Incident, then attacking Moore for not remembering the exact
 >date of an insignificant event.

Nothing like a little debunking diversion, eh Bruce? What does
this have to do with inane statement that "Moore's data is very
impressive evidence" besides nothing? Moore had no actual
tracking data. His so-called "impressive data" is nothing but a
recreation based on a very carefully selected bunch of
assumptions needed to create a track up to the Foster Ranch.

 >>The only real data Moore had was a very limited set of
 >>meteorological wind data from a weather station at Orogrande 32
 >>miles south of Alamogordo plus some general weather maps.

 >But the data used to check the other two flights wasn't all that
 >much better. And those were computed correctly.

Really? Refer us to where Moore "computed these correctly."

I have never seen these so-called "successful" recreations of
known tracks you keep referring to, and I don't think anybody
else has either. What Moore _actually_ does in his book is take
the known trajectory data from Flights #5 & #6 and back-
calculate the wind data.

Please tell us where he does the reverse: take weather data from
elsewhere and accurately plot the trajectories. Ain't be done,
not that I know of.

<snip>

 >>I won't bother you with statements in Mogul records and a
 >>paper Moore cowrote about Mogul in the J. Meteorology in 1948
 >>which state that they were unable to predict the direction of
 >>the flights from wind data collected at surrounding weather
 >>stations in Albuquerque, El Paso, and Roswell. There is even a
 >>statement that they couldn't reliability predict the direction
 >>from the pilot balloons they sent up at Alamogordo itself prior
 >>to the actual Mogul launches. So what makes you think another
 >>set of limited wind data from Orogrande will necessarily make
 >>prediction any more reliable?

 >Is David being deliberately disingenuous here? Even today,
 >weather experts cannot predict _exactly_ the wind and weather
 >patterns In Advance! Moore was using historical data on the
 >recorded weather, not advance predictions. Are you confused
 >about this?

No, Bruce. You seem to be the one seriously confused. They were
talking about their inability to predict balloon flights not
only concurrent with the flights, but also retrospectively based
on historical data. E.g., Moore's 1948 article in J. Meteorology
discusses the historical wind data from the year before on
Flight #11. The wind data didn't match up with the path the
flight took, and they made a big point about this. The
trajectories weren't predictable either at the time or
afterwards when they had all the relevant data. This conclusion
was also stated a number of times in the Mogul summaries.

 >>Moore makes a large number of other assumptions and
 >>extrapolations in his hypothetical balloon track of Flight #4
 >>to Mack Brazel's corrale. This totally hypothetical balloon
 >>track is probably what Bruce Hutchinson refers to as
 >>"impressive data." But Moore's tables of numbers are not "data"
 >>but what his model with all its assumptions predicts. I repeat,
 >>Moore had no tracking data.

 >But Moore did have weather data, and verification that flight #4
 >launched.

They had weather data and knew their other flights were launched
too. So? They stated repeatedly they still couldn't reliably
predict the tracks they eventually took. Maybe you should read
the actual Mogul summary reports and look at some of the highly
erratic tracks of the balloons plotted therein.

 >He was also able to check his assumptions and
 >simulations against known tracks- successfully. That is far, far
 >more than you can offer for your versions.

What's this? About the 10th time you've made this unsupported statement?

 >>Anybody who thinks you can accurately predict the actual
 >>trajectory of Flight #4 from this scanty weather data and
 >>plethora of assumptions is living in a dream world.

<snip>

 >And your dream world is based on a wave of the hand?

My, what a snappy comeback! Maybe you should try arguing points
on their merits for a change rather than resorting to stale
debunking tactics like appeals to authority, argument by
assertion, arguing from ignorance, making up your facts, evading
or changing the subject, etc., etc.


David Rudiak








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:22:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:53:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:52:59 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >>Something amiss here surely. Caffeine should be therapeutic for
 >>migraines, because it counteracts the dilating of cranial blood
 >>vessels which causes them.

 >When I was a research assistant at the university, I specialized
 >in migraine therapy. Caffeine in unregulated doses can cause a
 >rebound effect that may actually trigger migraines in some
 >instances.

 >Since caffeine is a vasoconstrictor, a cup of coffee or tea may
 >cause the blood vessels to constrict but when the alkaloid wears
 >off, the blood vessels dilate again. If the patient drinks
 >several cups of coffee or tea or anything containing caffeine
 >throughout the day, the constant constriction and dilation of
 >the blood vessels, exacerbated by stress factors, can cause
 >irregular vasodilation and can trigger a migraine.

 >There is a big difference between caffeine/ergot therapy and
 >consuming caffeine at will. A migraine sufferer should always
 >consult their physician before taking any drugs or chemicals as
 >any substance may effect the psychophysiological make-up of the
 >individual.

Thanks for the info. My suspicions were aroused because I'm a
notorious consumer of strong black coffee very much at will
(well, theoreticians, I guess :-)) and I've never noticed a
correlation with migraine attacks.

But the human body is the archetypal non-linear feedback system
and so liable to produce apparently paradoxical and unexpected
effects, and what you describe certainly sounds like an
excellent example of how that can happen.

 >(I suffered migraines from the age of 13 to the age of 18 years
 >old with a variety of symptoms including numbness of
 >extremeties, paralysis of facial muscles, auras, etc. My sisters
 >had them and my daughter has them. I stopped having migraines
 >when I learned self-hypnosis - aka self-regulation/relaxation
 >skills and stress management which is what I taught clients at
 >UNT.)

You too :-) I occasionally get the hybrid type, which can
involve syncope and can actually look like an epileptic seizure
- in fact I went through neuro examination for epilepsy, hence
my irritation at doctors who can't tell the difference between
migraines and epilepsy even when the signs are classical. It
seems some doctors just can't wait to pin an extra illness on
their patients.


Cathy








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                    Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 06:28:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda - Warren


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Human Logic/Alien Agenda


 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:00:43 -0700
 >>Subject: Human Logic/Alien Agenda

 >>Hello All,

 >>Some observations; time and time again I've noticed people
 >>trying to explain the "alien agenda" with human logic. That is
 >>people continue to theorize and make assumptions of the motives
 >>and actions of "our visitors" based on "human scientific
 >>principles."

 >>One example of this is how we interpret our visitor's "method of
 >>travel" based on what "we" know about time and space.

 >Hold it!

 >Who says we're dealing with a "they"? And who says "they"
 >travel? I agree that many arguments (pro and con) re. the UFO
 >phenomenon are anthrocentric, but it's far too easy to interpret
 >UFOs and their "occupants" along familiar ontological circuits.

Hi Mac

Thank you for your comments in regards to my post! Actually, I
didn't mention UFO's (Unidentified Flying Objects) in said post.
I referenced "aliens" and or "visitors." However, for the sake
of argument let's say that I was "staying in the vein" that some
UFOs are "alien spacecraft." Moreover, my point was that people
tend to view the "alien agenda" from a "anthropocentric" point
of view!

 >I think UFOs can best be understood by their _effects_. And one
 >of those effects (if not the central effect) of the phenomenon
 >is the power to influence human belief.

Hmmm, I think you would need to clarify that statement a little
more, before I comment. However, 'UFOs' in their literal
meaning are a fact-of-life, as is the space-shuttle! No one
ever describes people as "space-shuttle believers!"

 >I don't think we know that the ufonauts are a "they" yet.
 >Personally, I think the UFO phenomenon, with its mythical,
 >technological and existential (i.e., we are not alone)
 >connotations, behaves something like a behavioral conditioning
 >system, as noted by Jacques Vallee in "The Invisible College"
 >and "Dimensions."

I think 'we' knew what 'Ufonauts' were over 50 years ago! I do
agree however, that behavioral conditioning has been going on
even longer! Furthermore, I believe it is/was a side-effect of
our government's admitted debunking programs and that side-
  effect, i.e., behavioral conditioning, has crossed generations.

 >For all we know our universe is "someone else's" screensaver or
 >A-life experiment, and UFOs are simply fragments of code
 >endlessly scrolling just beneath the veneer of perceivable
 >reality...

Interesting concept. <G>


Warmest Regards,

Frank Warren







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                             Re: Meteor? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:45:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:59:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Meteor? - Young


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 02:51:57 EDT
 >Subject: Meteor?

 >It's now 2:45AM on this small mountain. I just came in from a
 >little viewing on my five inch reflector. As I was packing, I
 >looked up to see what I imagined was a meteor. It was traveling
 >east to west at about 5 degrees per second, leaving no trail. A
 >little slow for a meteor, eh?

Hello, Jim:

I would say so.

 >It seemed to just appear at about 40 degrees above the Eastern
 >horizon and disappeared about 30 degrees from the Western
 >horizon. It traveled in a straight line at about 20 degrees south
 >of zenith.

Could you be specific about how you determined its exact
direction of travel?

<snip>

 >It also stopped dead in it's path almost above me and stayed
 >there for more than one minute.

Did you observe it with binoculars or your telescope?

 >Venus? Swamp gas? Perhaps a pelican!  Not a meteor. And
 >likely non of the aforementioned. Occular degeneration of the
 >frontal famous of the interior of the muscle in the eyeball?

Sounds like a satellite or high flying aircraft.

 >Nah!  Maybe... just _maybe_, it was the dreaded UFO!?

Not unless the little greys are following you around and
hovering above you for some reason.


Clear skies have finally arrived,

Bob Young

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
(When all else fails, play dead)








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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:02:38 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:36:00 +0000
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:41:25 +0100

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:34:56 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>Ok, hi everyone,

 >>This is my first post here. To introduce myself, I'm a doctoral
 >>student in theoretical neuroscience when my health permits
 >>(which is not all that often these days). My particular interest
 >>is in the human visual system, hence my interest here.

 >>>What is wrong with being a skeptic? What is so wrong about being
 >>>skeptical? Why are people labeled "Skeptics" on this list and
 >>>other lists as if they have some type of horrible disease?

 >>Well, I guess this is what happens when a word becomes hijacked
 >>by a particular group of people to mean something other than
 >>what it was originally supposed to mean.

 >>I don't believe there's wrong with skepticism, if by skepticism
 >>you mean a strong sense of discernment, which I assume is what
 >>you mean. On the other hand though, not everyone who claims to
 >>be a skeptic is necessarily a skeptic -- in the same way that
 >>just because someone claims to be an honest purveyor of used
 >>automobiles doesn't necessarily mean that's what they are.

 >>In particular, I don't think there's anything particularly
 >>skeptical or discerning about the misrepresentation or selective
 >>representation of evidence, or about dishonest reporting of
 >>facts, or about the sloppy and inaccurate application of
 >>scientific principles.

 >>A little while ago I came upon a book in my university's library
 >>called 'The UFO Verdict', which was written by someone who I
 >>remember described himself at the time as a skeptic (I don't
 >>know if he's still in business).

 >Welcome and amen! My background is in philosophy of science, so
 >I appreciate what you are saying. Amy no doubt is a "true
 >skeptic," which is fine, but you have pointed out to her very
 >well the distinctions that need to be made. The book you cite
 >was written by Robert Schaffer, with whom I have had a few
 >confrontations over the years. I have never encountered a more
 >made-up (i.e., closed) mind.

I have just seen this post, and I concur heartily. There is
nothing wrong with being a skeptic! One should expect proof,
arguments laid out in a logical manner, and material which can
be checked.

Unfortunately, most times when dealing with UFOs, we have two
hardened positions of advocates for automatic opposing view
points. It reminds one of children playing 'cowboys and Indians'
or 'cops and robbers'.

Many advocates on both sides are willing to distort testimony,
edit out embarrassing details and change things to suit their
particular world view. I see this as a lack of integrity.

There is a paradox operating in human reporting: much human
testimony and reporting is notoriously unreliable, and great
advances in science and other fields are based on highly
reliable observation and reporting by people.

That the great majority of UFO reports are found to be IFOs says
volumes about the reliability of witness testimony.

That there are large numbers of "insufficient data" cases in
both official and unofficial files does point to weaknesses in
observation, reporting, and investigations.

The residuum of cases which have no easy explanation is the crux
of the matter. The IFOs and cases without complete useful data
are really not relevant. All scientific observations have groups
of data which are ruined, incomplete, unreliable, etc. Such
material is general excluded from the discussion of relevant
material and not even mentioned in most discussions except
possibly for a passing footnote.

What I look for in argumentation concerning specific UFO reports
are points which do not support the advocate's case. Does the
advocate have the courage and integrity to acknowledge such
problems? If so, then, his arguments are worthy of
consideration.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:05:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 13:39:47 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:13:48 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>BTW can anyone please tell me (off-List if necessary) where I can
 >>find out what the "psychosocial hypothesis" actually *is*?

As the editor of Magonia, which has been kindly described by
Jerome Clark as "the flagship of psychosocial ufology", I wonder
if I might be allowed a comment. For breivity I have snipped most
of Larry Hatch's response, which I think is an excellent
summarising of the psychosocial hypothesis (PSH)

 >Hello Cathy:

 >There is no single psychosocial (PS) hypothesis, but a range of
 >opinion, which in its simplest form implies that UFO sightings,
 >waves or flaps especially, result from social and psychological
 >factors, rather than some objectively perceived anomalies.

This is most important, and I'm glad that Larry points out that
there is no single PSH, so that it is wrong to claim that the
PSH attempts to 'explain' the whole UFO phenomena in the way
that the ETH does.

It's also important to recognise, as Larry does above, that the
greatest scope for psychosocial explanations comes with the
study of waves and flaps rather than individual sightings. By
the fact that these are events which are experienced by a number
of people over a length of time, they fall within the "social"
part of "psychosocial". The "psycho" part is, I agree, more
problematical.

I would disagree that it applies only to "the ravings of a
crank". I would say that these are immediately obvious to most
researchers, but experience of some of the posts to this List
indicates that this is not always the case. Larry seems to
recognise this also when he comments that "visual misperceptions
are part and parcel of psychology ... as opposed to psychiatry.
The "psycho" in "psychosocial" is definitely the former rather
than the latter.

Wher most PSH ufologists would part company with Larry is
exactly how far along the road we would take a PSH explanation.
A misperception of Venus as a silver disc? No problem. As a
rapidly moving silver disc? Well, we already have an argument on
the list about apparent autookinetic movements, but most serious
ufologists would accept it. As a close encounter or even
stimulus to an abduction case? Perhaps this is where ufologists
like Larry would draw the line, but, depending on the
circumstances, PSH ufologists might be prepared to argue the
case.

Larry says: "For me it is inappropriate to use PS to explain the
isolated event, with multiple credible witnesses, in the absence
of any wave or local flap. There I am left asking whether we
have objective events, possibly misperceived, or maybe even a
structured craft of intelligent design, which is beyond our
present technology."

The problem here, and it has been rehearsed many times before on
Updates, is where are these cases with multiple credible
witnesses? The credible witness cases are seldom multiple, and
the multiple witnesses seldom credible! All too often alleged
multiple witness cases - like for example the much-vaunted
Trindade Island photo case - on examination turn out to be
single witness cases with reports of other witnesses. When
sought for these other witnesses turn out to be as elusive as
the UFOs themselves!

 >For me the safest thing to do is to view cases individually;
 >keeping in mind that _any_ of these hypotheses (ETH included)
 >may apply, or not, and that there may be still more
 >interpretations.

On this at least we are in total agreement ...

 >Personally, the only theories I reject out of hand are those
 >involving the spiritual plane, works of the devil etc. I see no
 >purpose in plowing those fields.

... and this, although such theories are in themselves very
interesting psychosocially, and worthy of study.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                        The Great Scareship Mystery?

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:04:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:06:43 -0400
Subject: The Great Scareship Mystery?


Dear Colleagues,

I have placed a rather interesting, and new article, on 'The
Great British Scareship Mystery Of 1909', writtten by Colin
Mulligan.

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/ScareShips.htm

There is an e-mail link direct to the author, for any questions
you may have.


Best Regards,

Roy..


Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.

Articles On the UFO Subject, Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!







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                Argentina's INTA Agrees With SENASA Findings

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:10:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:09:58 -0400
Subject: Argentina's INTA Agrees With SENASA Findings


SOURCE: Rio Negro On Line and Telam News Agency
DATE: Saturday, July 6, 2002

According to INTA, the cows died of natural causes
**The conclusion agrees with the one reached by SENASA specialists**

BUENOS AIRES (TELAM). The bovine deaths and depredations
reported in several provinces of the country are due to natural
causes proper to this time of year, according to a report from
the Balcarce Experimental Station of the National Institute of
Livestock Technology (INTA). Histopathological studies and
necropsies performed by INTA technicians show that the tissues
present no alterations aside from those which are "produced by
the passing of time" and that the cause of death was
attributable to "common diseases for the time of year."

The communiqu=E9, signed by Ernesto Odiozola of the INTA's
Specialized Veterinary Diagnostic Service (SDVE) agrees along
general lines with the opinions given by scientists of the
Unviersidad Nacional de Centro at Tandil, requested by SENASA.

The report is based on analyses performed "as of June 20" in
"different locations in the Buenos Airean districts of Dorrego,
Tres Arroyos, Tandil, Necochea and Olavarr=EDa" at the request of
"veterinarians in private practice." During these visits, 10
animals presenting similar characteristics were observed, with
necropsies being performed on four of them and samples taken
from all of the animals, explained the report.

The histopathological studies perforemd at the INTA Balrcarce
laboratories showed that the animal tissue "described as
cauterized presented no alterations beyond those produced by the
passing of time, post mortem changes which are common to any
tissue several days after death." It likewise states that the
"necropsies performed on animals that had been dead for only
several hours revealed that the cause of death could be
attributed to diseases common to the time of year, such as
pneumonia, hypomagnesemia, etc." The incisions observed
presented "serrated edges" with irregularities which could be
explained as the action of common predators."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi







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                        UFO Over Patagones Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:55:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:11:33 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Patagones Argentina



SOURCE: Noticias (Carmen de Patagones, Comarca Viedma, Argentina)
DATE: Saturday, Jyly 6, 2002

**Strange light seen last night by occupants of 268 homes **
UFOs REPORTED OVER PATAGONES

"We were able to see how an airliner in the distance appeared to
pass over the object, which vanished into the horizon following
a zig-zag pattern."

PATAGONES. A new unknown and luminous object appeared over the
Comarca, but this time the strange object, which changed colors,
was seen last night by several local residents -- some 25 people
-- occupying the 268 homes that make up the village of Carmen de
Patagones.

Faced with the strange light, the villagers alerted each other
and slowly emerged from their homes and were stunned by the
clarity with which the alleged UFO could be seen.

The luminous object's appearance occurred shortly after 21:00
hrs and it remained visible until 21:30, at which time it
receded from view until it vanished in the horizion. According
to the locals who saw it, the object approached and receded
"like some sort of zoom lens" and changed colors as it did so.

Other locals followed the luminous object with their own eyes,
while others used binoculars. One villager informed a relative
in the city of the Viedma, who confirmed that the object was
visible from said city.

According to the information given by several of the locals, the
object had considerable luminosity, changed colors and moved in
a zig-zag pattern, although it stopped at times to move in a
swinging motion. The object was allegedly filmed by the daughter
of a local merchant who followed it to the rotunda, located by
the Basilio Villarino bridge. It was seen one last time heading
toward Guardia Mitre before losing itself in the horizon.

One of the eyewitnesses was Anibal Benitez, owner of a business
on Calle Mexico, who stated with regard to the light that "the
light was very potent and changed colors every so often to red,
blue and bright white," adding that: "We were able to see how an
airliner in the distance appeared to pass over the object, which
vanished into the horizon following a zig-zag pattern." The
businessman didn't hesitated and followed the object as it
moved." I hopped into my pickup truck with my family and we
followed it up to the road that leads to Guardia Mitre, where
the object gradually became lost in the horizon after remaining
for a few minutes."

In the meantime, Isabel, another villager, stated that the
"object was very luminous and we could see it for around 25
minutes. The object appeared to come closer and then recede.
Many people in the neighborhood saw it."

==================================================
Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.








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   Jul > Jul 7

                     Meteor & El Al Flight Over Ukraine

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:46:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:13:31 -0400
Subject: Meteor & El Al Flight Over Ukraine


Hello, all.

This is a strange thing, because initally it wasn't decribed as
a meteor type flash, then it is in this article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_2107000/2107710.stm

I saw Bright lights in the sky on the Third. They weren't
meteors. See my post on the Fourth.

I am not one to speculate idly, this could be something to keep
one's attention on.

GT McCoy










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                          Re: Meteor? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:15:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Meteor? - Mortellaro



 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:45:32 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Meteor?


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 02:51:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Meteor?

 >>It's now 2:45AM on this small mountain. I just came in from a
 >>little viewing on my five inch reflector. As I was packing, I
 >>looked up to see what I imagined was a meteor. It was traveling
 >>east to west at about 5 degrees per second, leaving no trail. A
 >>little slow for a meteor, eh?

 >Hello, Jim:

Hullo, Young Bob, List and Errol:

 >I would say so.

 >>It seemed to just appear at about 40 degrees above the Eastern
 >>horizon and disappeared about 30 degrees from the Western
 >>horizon. It traveled in a straight line at about 20 degrees south
 >>of zenith.

 >Could you be specific about how you determined its exact
 >direction of travel?

(sighs) Young Bob, since I was about 11 years old, I knew the
points on the compass, how to read one and which way North
was from the other points.

Why, you aks? Simple. I need to know which way to string my 160,
80 and 40 meter dipoles. And guess what? I even gots me a
_compass_!

Amazin' ain't it?

 ><snip>

 >>It also stopped dead in it's path almost above me and stayed
 >>there for more than one minute.

 >Did you observe it with binoculars or your telescope?

No and no. I observed this with the nekked eyeball. Autokinetic
motion again, Young Bob? (sighs again - whatam I gonna do with
you Bob?).

If something _stops_ dead and stays there a minute, it ain't a
meteor, satellite or some secret black ops thingy. Not even
close.

 >>Venus? Swamp gas? Perhaps a pelican! Not a meteor. And
 >>likely non of the aforementioned. Occular degeneration of the
 >>frontal famous of the interior of the muscle in the eyeball?

 >Sounds like a satellite or high flying aircraft.

Yeah, you are probably correct. Uh, do me a favor willya? Please
inform me and this august crowd of other loony bins what the
hell kind of high flying aircraft _stops in mid flight_ and
stays there still as me lookin at pictures of Pia Zadora sans
raiment? Huh? Please. Tell us. STOPS instantly, Bubba Bobby. And
starts the same way.

 >>Nah! Maybe... just _maybe_, it was the dreaded UFO!?

 >Not unless the little greys are following you around and
 >hovering above you for some reason.

I don't think so, Young Bob. This type of sighting is common
amoungst the non-autokinetic suffering and open minded loons
like me. Why even our star Poet Lauriate, the Great Lehmberg,
has seen this kinda stuff. And so many others.

All's you gotta do is stay up late and look up.

Clear skies have finally arrived,

 >Bob Young

 >Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
 >(When all else fails, play dead)

Rather, "Illigitimi non-carborundum." No personalization
intended Young Bob. Uh, but this does remind me of a Rimbaudian
line in a Dylan song.

"Ah but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now."
Need I say more? OK, with tongue planted firmly in cheek ...
"Grow Up Young Bob!"

And "in my fathers house there are many mansions and each one of
'em got a fireproof floor." Which is to say that the mere
mention of the dreaded Unidentified Flying Object requires this
of all of us. And so say all of us.

Love and respect. Ya gotta love Young Bob 'cause the alternative
is to become inordinately frustrated. Until later, when the moon
comes over the mountain, I'll be looking at the moon, but I'll
be seeing you. (Kate Smith)


Jimmy (The Shaking Eyeball) Morte di Fam

PS: Hey Pop, you gonna back me up on this? Don't yell at Young
Bob. You need to keep calm. But I would not mind if you gave him
hell!








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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:22:25 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

<snip>

 >There is a paradox operating in human reporting: much human
 >testimony and reporting is notoriously unreliable, and great
 >advances in science and other fields are based on highly
 >reliable observation and reporting by people.

 >That the great majority of UFO reports are found to be IFOs says
 >volumes about the reliability of witness testimony.

Hi, Jan, everybody else:

But, the unreliability, or inability, of these IFO witnesses to
correctly interpret what they have witnessed.

  <snip>

 >The residuum of cases which have no easy explanation is the crux
 >of the matter. The IFOs and cases without complete useful data
 >are really not relevant.

Except what the IFOs tell us about witness unreliability. Why is
this such a difficult thing to accept? Without this, one will be
doomed to forever investigate the latest little light in the
sky.

Or, don't you give much credence to the run of the mill
Nocturnal Lights? If not, why not?


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 361

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@libero.it>
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:44:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:25:16 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 361


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 361 - 4 JULY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- The Italian Air Force Releases the UFO Case-Log for 2001
- How Many Italians Believe In UFOs & ET?
- A New Book By Alfredo Lissoni
- Another 13 UFO T-Shirts


THE ITALIAN AIR FORCE RELEASES THE UFO CASE-LOG FOR 2001

As in every year, the General Security Unit of the Italian Air
Force General Staff has responded to our request by releasing
the usual list of reports of unidentified flying objects
(oggetti volanti non identificati, OVNI) sighted during the
course of 2001, as collected by the military.

As is routine by now, the list is disappointing as far as the
numbers are concerned: at the only government body responsible
for the gathering of UFO data, in fact, it turns out that there
were recorded last year only twelve sightings (3 in June and
August; 2 in May and October; and 1 in March and November),
compared with a total of over 760 reports logged at the civilian
Italian Center for UFO Studies (CISU).

Of 12 cases, only one includes a member of the military as a
witnesses, while the other 11 reports turn out all to originate
from private citizens. The meagerness of the sample makes any
other statistical consideration meaningless. The complete text
of the list (including location, date, time, hour, shape, color,
speed, direction, height and weather data) is reproduced on the
CISU Internet site (www.cisu.org/ovni2001.htm).

[Communication by Paolo Fiorino; collaboration by Giancarlo
D=92Alessandro]


HOW MANY ITALIANS BELIEVE IN UFOS & ET?

Following a huge mass-media publicity campaign, the August issue
of the popular science monthly "Quark" is on newsstands with the
results of an opinion poll by the CIRM Institute regarding what
Italians think about extraterrestrial life and (as a side-note)
UFOs.

According to the few bits of data published, the polling firm
interviewed a cross-section represented by 1,136 Italians, 80%
of whom maintains that other life forms exist in the Universe,
and 74% who say that science allows for it; of these, 44% holds
that possible extraterrestrials would nonetheless live in
galaxies different from our own, and 60% maintains that these
would be rather or very different from us, while 28% retains
that they could be intelligent beings, with whom 38% believes
that we could live peacefully and 37% believes that we could
not.

And where do UFOs figure here? In an unrelated question (and one
unfortunately posed in a manner different from and incomparable
with other, preceding polls), it was also asked whether it was
felt that sightings of UFOs have a foundation in truth: 55% of
those interviewed responded =93yes,=94 and 38% answered =93no.=94

[Quark, August; Ansa, 1 July; UFO-Italia, 1 and 2 July; various
Italian dailies, 2 July; collaboration by Gildo Person=E8]


A NEW BOOK BY ALFREDO LISSONI

MIR Publications have just issued the latest UFO book authored
by Alfredo Lissoni: "UFO: i dossier del Vaticano" (=93UFOs: The
Vatican Files=94), the ideal completion to a trilogy devoted,
along with its preceding volumes, to the UFO issue in the Hebrew
tradition and in Islamic countries, respectively.

The book gathers documentation and interpretations about UFO,
pre-UFO and para-UFO apparitions and phenomena reported in the
Christian tradition, from the Middle Ages on; it totals 208
pages and sells for 12 Euro, plus shipping.

The UFO Book Service of the UPIAR Cooperative has acquired a
certain number of copies of the book that are on sale at its
Website www.upiar.com for 14 Euro (11 Euro for CISU members).


ANOTHER 13 UFO T-SHIRTS

In light of the summer which by now has begun, the Cooperative
UPIAR is distributing thirteen new UFO-themed T-shirts.

They involve twelve various pictorial recreations of as many UFO
sightings, the work of the artist Giorgio Giorgi, plus a
thirteenth T-shirt that shows all of them together in one
picture.

The T-shirts are already on sale on the Internet site
www.upiar.com, which is offering them at a promotional discount
through 15 July. Additionally, they are available for viewing at
the CISU Website (www.CISU.org/maglie.htm), the members of which
receive the usual 20% discount off the price.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino; collaboration by Maurizio Verga]


Collaborators on this edition were: Giancarlo D=92Alessandro,
Paolo Fiorino, Gian Paolo Grassino, Gildo Person=E8 and Maurizio
Verga.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino, No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to:

cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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                     Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:57:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:26:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website


 >From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:20:20 -0700
 >Subject: Two New Reports On NIDS Website


 >Two reports have recently appeared on the NIDS web site and may
 >be of interest to your readers.


 >Sincerely

 >Colm Kelleher
 >NIDS

Colm,

I understand that NIDS has had some staff/employee reduction and
emphasis is being placed towards Bigelow Aerospace as opposed to
its current emphasis. As I have heard supposedly you will still
be doing "some" but not to the degree you have done before.

We would appreciate any clarification or comment you might have.

Cheers,

Robert








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                       Roswell Celebrates UFO Landing

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:32:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:27:35 -0400
Subject: Roswell Celebrates UFO Landing


Source: abc28 (Lubbock, Texas),

http://home.abc28.com/Global/story.asp?S=3D846235

Video link:

http://www.texasize.com/avi/barry/ufo.wmv

Stig

***

Ashleigh Barry

Roswell Celebrates UFO Landing

**

The streets of Roswell, New Mexico were littered with thousands
of die-hard UFO enthusiasts.

It's the annual festival commemorating a 1947 alien spacecraft
crash that was reportedly sighted just outside of the town.

The tradition only dates back eight years, but the phenomenom is
timeless. "A lot of people that come through our doors are here
for serious reasons," says Julie Schuster, Director of Roswell's
UFO Museum. "Their interested and focused on why their here and
it's the ufo phenomenon."

Schuster says already, close to a thousand fascinated folks have
passed through the exhibit. "They're curious," she says of the
crowds that flock to the museum, "they're serious and having a
good time researching, it's just a good mix."

Since the inception of the UFO Museum in 1992, more than 1
million people have visited the facility. In fact an average of
10,217 attended each festival, and represent more than 36
nations from around the globe and every state in the nation.

"I'm not sure I believe it," says Virginian Nathan Harrison, of
the exhibit.

No matter what you believe, some say these brilliants light have
a very clear message. "We need to be accustomed to that
phenomenom because they are there, the UFO, it's them trying to
wake us up to their existence," says Marc Letourneau, he
journeyed from Quebec to be a part of the festival.

Museum representatives say that next year they plan to invite
some special aliens from Hollywood.

**

All content =A9 Copyright 2000 - 2002, WorldNow and KAMC.

All Rights Reserved.








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             Re: Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There'

From: Robert Gates <Gates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:38:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There'


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 06:48:41 +0200
 >Subject: Philip Corso Jr. Breaks Silence On 'Out There'

 >Source: 'Out There' Television,

 >http://www.crosswynd.com/outthere.htm

 >Stig

 >***

 >OUT THERE TELEVISION

 >Live Television Exploring The Weird, The Wild And The
 >Unexplained - With Kate & Richard Mucci

 >OUT THERE TV UPCOMING SHOWS

 ><snip>

 >AUGUST 11, 2002 - Special Guest Phillip Corso Jr. Phillip, son
 >of Colonel Philip Corso, Sr. (Author, The Day After Roswell)
 >Tonight, Phillip Jr. breaks his silence and has agreed to talk
 >to OUT THERE about developments concerning his fathers book,
 >along with the reality of the 1947 Roswell UFO crash, and the
 >probability of additional extra terrestrial contract. Phillip
 >Corso's appearance tonight is an OUT THERE television
 >exclusive! Phillip does not normally do interviews of any kind,
 >and we are honored to have him as our guest tonight.

According to the Birnes interview we already have the rough
manuscript for 5 books done! We already have 14 hours of video
tape done! According to Birnes him and Corso went though the
entire manuscript which was then broken down to 5 books.

So what are we waiting for?


Cheers,

Robert








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:40:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:00 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 13:39:47 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >Where most PSH ufologists would part company with Larry is
 >exactly how far along the road we would take a PSH explanation.
 >A misperception of Venus as a silver disc? No problem. As a
 >rapidly moving silver disc? Well, we already have an argument on
 >the list about apparent autookinetic movements, but most serious
 >ufologists would accept it.

Depends, of course, on the description and magnitude of the
motion. As we have recently learned (if we didn't know already)
the autokinetic effect is limited to small apparent motions,
less than a degree. hence if the observer describes large angle
motion (many degrees) we can assume it wasn't the aurokinetic
effect (or the observer was seriously exaggerating the
autokinetic effect). The impressive cases are the ones where the
observer(s) says the light/object was first seen "here"
(direction) and ;last seen "over there" (another direction) and
the angle between the directions is many degrees.

 >As a close encounter or even
 >stimulus to an abduction case? Perhaps this is where ufologists
 >like Larry would draw the line, but, depending on the
 >circumstances, PSH ufologists might be prepared to argue the
 >case.

 >Larry says: "For me it is inappropriate to use PS to explain the
 >isolated event, with multiple credible witnesses, in the absence
 >of any wave or local flap. There I am left asking whether we
 >have objective events, possibly misperceived, or maybe even a
 >structured craft of intelligent design, which is beyond our
 >present technology."

 >The problem here, and it has been rehearsed many times before on
 >Updates, is where are these cases with multiple credible
 >witnesses? The credible witness cases are seldom multiple, and
 >the multiple witnesses seldom credible!

Seldom. Does that mean the sometimes... once in a while... or at
least once in history... there are (once was) a case that was
credible, with multiple witnesses who are themselves credible?

Of course, we have the White Sands movies of April 1950 which
were made by experience observers using cinetheodolite cameras
that allowed for triangulation that indicated the objects flying
over the military area were on the order of 30 ft in size and
150,000 ft high. I'd say that was at least reasonably credible.

Then there is the Rogue River sighting:

(http://brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver.html

 >All too often alleged
 >multiple witness cases - like for example the much-vaunted
 >Trindade Island photo case - on examination turn out to be
 >single witness cases with reports of other witnesses. When
 >sought for these other witnesses turn out to be as elusive as
 >he UFOs themselves!

Um... who was the sole witness to Trindade? What evidence have
you that there was only one witness?








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                      CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:45:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:43:34 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 7, 2002

_____________________________


CIRCULAR CONCIOUSNESS

Paul Anderson
Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
July, 2002


Web version of this article with photos, illustrations and links:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circularconciousness.html



This short article is essentially a personal summary of some of
my thoughts on the nature of the crop circle phenomenon as of
the summer of 2002 and how are conciousness may be connected to
or involved in the creation of formations, a possibility that I
have become increasingly interested in.

When I first heard about crop circles around 1990, after seeing
an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, the first thing that came to
mind, as for many people, was the idea that these were
communications from another intelligence, possibly containing an
encoded message of some sort. The nature of the long pictograms
of the time seemed to suggest that, resembling an unknown
language. They did not however seem to be simply landing marks
left by UFOs as some had suggested. Something else was going on.
Having a graphic arts background, I was immediately hooked and
fascinated by these 'signs' appearing overnight in farm fields
worldwide. This phenomenon was like no other.

Over the years however, the phenomenon evolved and changed, in
unexpected ways. The patterns still suggested intelligence, the
more complex ones at least, but now a wide range of symbolism
was showing up in fields worldwide, from advanced mathematics to
astronomy to icons of the oldest religions and beliefs. This no
longer seemed to me to be a straightforward attempt at
communication by 'aliens' in the conventional sense, but perhaps
something deeper. Of course, the prevailing notion took over
that all of these formations were merely human artwork, nothing
more. To a point, I believe there is some truth in this, that
human hoaxing and 'land art' have become more prevailant in
recent years and for many have frustratingly clouded the issue.

But many formations, both simple and complex ones, continue to
provide evidence for another, genuine phenomenon. It was the
overt physical nature of the phenomenon, plus the scientific
evidence, that drew me to it initially and still does. I am
actually fairly conservative, wanting evidence or better yet
proof, for things unexplained. I consider myself to be an 'open-
minded skeptic' or 'skeptical believer' as such. I grew up
watching and reading Carl Sagan and similar leading thinkers of
our time, who while waxing poetically about the nature of the
universe, took a dim view however, at least publicly, of any
such 'fringe' topics like crop circles. Early on, I had no idea
I would become as involved as I have in the study of this
phenomenon, I couldn't have predicted it, although I was doing
research in other areas (and still do) and had life-long
interests in unexplained phenomena or anything that challenged
our pre-conceived notions of how the universe worked. After all,
we're essentially talking about nothing more than flattened
field crops! For me however, I became more fascinated the longer
I looked into the subject. I was already open minded about such
concepts as quantum physics, life elsewhere and so on, so why
not crop circles? There appeared to be only two main
possibilities, either they (the non-manmade ones) were the
product of an alien intelligence (as in non-human, not
necessarily aliens from another planet) or they were a not yet
understood natural phenomenon. The phenomenon seemed suited for
me it felt like, as the prairies had always been in my blood
with many in my family coming from or living in Alberta and
Saskatchewan (and some still do) and I had always had a love of
the open country as well as a good mystery. I had even worked as
an assistant curator for the BC Agricultural Museum in the early
90s. Bingo, the perfect mystery!

The reports from many people of other, stranger experiences,
threw a twist into many of the conventional theories floating
around. The classic story back in the early days from veteran UK
researcher Busty Taylor being a prime example; while flying near
Cheesefoot Head in August of1986, Busty stated 'All we want now
is to find all the formations we have seen to date wrapped into
one, like the Celtic Cross'. The next day just such a formation
was there, seen when Busty flew over the same spot again. The
previous night had been wet with heavy rain. Similar accounts
have come from many over the years, even from self-professed
hoaxers. The experiments of the Southern Circular Research team
in the UK, of attempting interaction with the circle-making
intelligence(s) or force(s) and creating a formation with their
own minds, are compelling, as outlined in the book Quest for
Contact by Andy Thomas and Paul Bura. The phenomenon seemed to
exhibit characteristics seen in other phenomena such as UFOs, of
'playing games' with people such as always staying one step
ahead of the latest hypothesis (as soon as a new conclusive
answer to the mystery would be provided, the phenomenon would
then seem to do something to demonstratably nullify it) or of
even interacting more directly with people. What did this all
mean?

One of the most dramatic and unusual such occurrences was the
witnessing, by well known and respected researcher Nancy
Talbott, of a formation apparently being made in August of 2001
in Holland, while staying there for research purposes (Holland
being a country of frequent crop circle activity). After
expressing frustration from a difficult day and weeks of tiring
work in the fields, Nancy asked 'why can't this phenomenon be
more obvious, more direct'? shortly before retiring to her
bedroom. At about 3:15 am, while reading in bed, Nancy reported
hearing bauling cattle outside, then seeing a bright beam of
white light hit the ground outside the house through her bedroom
window. Although she still had the bedroom light on to read, the
light was bright enough to light up the room. This was quickly
followed by two more similar shafts of light, also witnessed by
Robbert van der Broeke in the house, the whole event over in
only a few seconds. To their surprise, a new circle with
attached 'T' shape was now in the bean field where they had seen
the beams hit. Upon inspection, the plants were still apparently
'steaming'. The account is similar to others over the years; is
it only a coincidence that the new formation occurred where it
did (within a couple hundred feet of the house, in full view),
and when it did?

Full report:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/ntcircle01.html

Almost everyone I know who has become involved in these studies
have had unusual experiences in their life they can't explain.
Whether more than average, I am not sure, but it seems so. I've
also had many such experiences since childhood, including
premonitions, synchronocities (many, even in the circumstances
of close family members passing over, such as when my
grandmother told me matter-of-factly one day a few years ago
that she knew her time had come, only about a week before she
died, and had still been in ok health when she told me, until
she went into hospital a few days later for heart problems),
detailed lucid dreams, shared dreams, and even possible PK (or
poltergeist?) occurrences such as when a heavy glass ashtray
literally blew apart in half right beside me for no apparent
reason on a quiet day while watching TV when I was in my early
teens (my mother also witnessed it happen). These seemed to
increase after 1988, when I first started getting actively
involved in more serious research. One of the books that got me
thinking more 'outside the box' as such was The Holographic
Universe by Michael Talbot, offering the concept of the universe
as a sort of giant hologram, containing both matter and
conciousness entertwined together. Also coming from a
conservative Christian background in terms of my beliefs, this
phenomenon seemed to challenge views I had since childhood; I
now see this as a learning curve, not necessarily negating my or
anyone else's beliefs, but perhaps expanding upon them in a
positive way. I had always believed in God, but also that our
understanding of the Who, Why and How may be far beyond the
reach of our human brains to fully comprehend. My experiences
caused me to ask many questions.

Relating to the crop circles, one of the strangest experiences I
had so far was a very vivid dream I had one night in August of
2000, of looking down on a pattern in a field which appeared to
have two circles in it, one a bit larger than the other. The
whole 'scene' was in vivid colour, orange-red, like looking
through an infrared filter or something similar. Inside each
circle was what I could only describe as bright glowing
'twisting bands of energy', like coiling snakes. I had many crop
circle dreams before, even apparent premonitions in a couple
instances, but nothing so vivid as this.

It was the next day that I received a message from Nancy Talbott
of a new formation at Moosomin, Saskatchewan, reported to her by
a contact of hers. When our (CCCRN) Saskatchewan coordinator
Dennis Eklund, in Saskatoon, went to the site shortly after, he
was surprised to find that many of the plant stalks inside the
formation, a 250 foot classic dumbbell with two attached circles
in wheat, were deformed with 'somatic developmental
abnormalities'; the stems beneath the seed heads were twisted
around, almost 'knotted'. Other seed heads themselves were bent
at about a 90 degree angle. If a coincidence, a most unusual
one. Similar anomalies had been found in a formation at
Whitefish, Montana, USA in 1999 and later in the huge Milk Hill
formation in England in 2001. I initially interpreted this as a
basic premonition of sorts, although it is not known precisely
when the formation itself was actually made (the condition on
the ground did indicate quite recently however). Was this an
indication that the phenomenon can and does interact with us, or
that we are 'tapping into it' somehow or both? The dream felt
like a piece of the puzzle being viewed or presented for unknown
reasons. Does it relate to how the formation was made (the
scientific evidence for microwave and electromagnetic-like
energies being present inside some formations, particularly soon
after creation, has grown and others have even reported plants
still feeling warm to the touch or even steaming after a new
pattern has formed in a few cases)?

Another time a few years ago, I had a dream of a number of
random circles in a field of grass. Again, it was the next day
that I received a report of a similar set of circles farther
north in BC, on an Indian reservation. Another coincidence?

In late August of 2001, before going to Saskatchewan and Alberta
for Crop Watch 2001, I had expressed a private thought or
'request' of wanting the phenomenon to produce formations near
enough to where our team would be staying, which would be
primarily Estevan, Saskatchewan, and perhaps more complex than
what is usually seen in Canada. I later repeated this while in
the formation at Drayton Valley, Alberta. The next day, our
pilot assistant in Estevan, Saskatchewan, John Erickson,
notified me of three new formations he had just found there near
Midale, a hot spot in recent years. These were the first of
seven formations in all to appear within the following six day
period. Some of the formations were indeed a 'notch or two' more
complex, in terms of design, size and ground detail (complex
layering, bunching and 'weaving' of stalks, etc.). Before
leaving to go to the prairies, I had been pessimistic as to
having many formations that year, expecting few if any due to a
widespread drought. Another case of a request granted?

Shortly after this in early September, the largest known crop
formation so far in Canada (422 feet across) was found near Red
Deer, Alberta. What was unusual was that it was a stylized
version of a Middle Eastern Star of David or hexagram. When the
terrorist attacks in the US happened on September 11, some
people wondered if the formation was a warning or foreshadowing?
While the formation itself was actually less impressive on the
ground than most others seen here, it is still an interesting
coincidence in terms of its timing, as such symbolism has rarely
been seen in Canadian formations before, although circles with
Crosses attached have previously appeared and a number of
formations have been found on Native Indian reservations over
the years.

So what does this all mean? Before dismissing such experiences,
it may be worth noting the directions that studies in quantum
physics and related fields have taken us in recent years; how is
it that atoms have been observed to 'respond' or alter their
behaviour in relation to the scientists observing them? What is
thought? What is conciousness? Recent experiments such as those
for the Global Conciousness Project at Princeton University have
provided more evidence of 'mass conciousness', reflecting
current ideas like those in The Holographic Universe,
demonstrating how key events such as major disasters can trigger
strong measureable responses in the collective psyche among many
people worldwide more or less simultaneously, even shortly
before those events happen (relating to premonitions, shared
dreams, etc.). Does the crop circle phenomenon play a part in
our undertanding of these issues? Rather than being an
independent phenomenon, I am coming to the conclusion that the
circles are but one part of a larger puzzle, a physical
manifestation of perhaps many things, even our own knowledge,
beliefs and fears; this may be occurring as direct interaction
in tandem with an unknown external intelligence or is it also
possible the humanity may be communicating with itself, in ways
not previously thought of? As long as the circles continue, so
will the search for answers.


This article may be linked to or reprinted providing copyright
given.


____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002






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   Jul > Jul 7

                  CCCRN News: Amazing New 740' Formation at

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 01:32:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:44:49 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Amazing New 740' Formation at


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 7, 2002

_____________________________


AMAZING NEW 740' FORMATION AT STONEHENGE, UK


For those who haven't seen it yet, this is a must-see:

http://cropcircleconnector.com/2002/Normanton/Normanton2002a.htm
l


Also, check out Moonshadow, a beautiful crop circle themed table
by BC furniture designer Edmund Butler; the table is available
at The Wood Co-op store on Granville Island in Vancouver, BC (I
went to see it last weekend, it is beautifully done and only
costs $5000.00 Canadian!):

http://www.goodwood.homestead.com/Moonshadow.html

The design is the Hackpen Hill formation from 1999, which
incidentally is what the new Stonehenge formation is apparently
based on but about twice the size and in 'full bloom' as Charles
Mallet nicely puts it...

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002







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   Jul > Jul 7

                                   Mutes?

From: Elaine Tassin <Blueziana@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:19:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:47:24 -0400
Subject: Mutes?


Greetings... everyone,

I have been studying these mutilations, reading everything posted,
and a thought keeps popping in my head. I am wondering, if our,
meaning Earth animals, are being used as food, and possibly for
some form of breeding....making Frankinaliens, or Aliensteins...'
Another thought comes to mind, has there really been anything
called Mad Cow disease, prior to mutilations?

I will sit back chewing my cud, wondering if anyone else's
brain runs on my track.


Elaine Tassin









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   Jul > Jul 7

                  Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:08:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:49:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:03 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

<snip>

 >Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
 >Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
 >it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
 >direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

 >Here, Jim, is a map of the Western USA so you can see some of
 >what I do with the info:

 >http://www.larryhatch.net/WESTUSA.html

Dear Larry:

I've spent the past few days in Show Low, and talked with Mike
at some length.

I did not ask him if the site had ever been surveyed down to the
degree/minute/second, and even if it had been, I am certain he
would not give me the exact coordinates, or at least not allow
their publication.  He is very protective of the actual site, in
the interests of securing it from contamination.

I concur with his reasoning here, as I'm sure you do as well.

However, here is some info that may be of some help to you.  I
was looking at a map of the Rodeo/Chedeski fire this morning,
and located the local geographical area called "Turkey Springs."
It is in this rough area that the alleged incident occurred.
Turkey Springs is indeed about 9 miles due south of Heber, and
just a little west.  It is right on the edge of the Mogollon
Rim.  It is fairly easy to locate if you have a USGS topo map or
other map showing local geographical names.  That is about the
best resolution I can give you at this point.


Thanks,

==JJS==







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   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:24:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:52:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:17 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

 >I wonder if one of those mice is named Mickey?

 >I also wonder if the mice are epicures... you know, very picky
 >eaters (only certain areas of the body are eaten).

 >I also envision the mice fighting off the wolves and dogs and
 >other predators so that the corpse will remain untouched after
 >the mice have finished their epicurean delights.


Forgive me, I'm certainly no expert on the dietary practices of
rodentia, but isn't it highly unusual for a species - any
species - to make such a drastic change in its eating habits?

Micro changes I can see - for example, a herbivore adapting to
eating a different plant type because the one it's used to
eating has died out.  But wouldn't this be on the order of an
instectivore suddenly becoming a carnivore?  Is this common, or
even heard of ?

==JJS==







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              Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:47:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:54:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentina: SENASA Official Report Blames Mice


 >Surely this theory is easy to test? Just lock a cow up with a
 >roomful of the hungry mice.

 >One would assume they would have done this already?

 >Where's the video evidence of these picky carnivorous rodents in
 >action?

I would just like to know how a rat can enucleate a cow. Merely
chewing on the eyeball won't do it - you'd get a chewed-up
eyeball (ew!) It's no small feat for an animal that small to
pull an eyeball completely out of its ocular orbit.

I think I smell a non-rat.

 >I have read that in some of these mutilations, laser-like
 >incisions have gone _around_individual_ cells! Damn clever mice!

That sounds like it might be a little... embellished. Do you
remember where you might have read that?


 >When will we see some serious Government research of this
 >phenomena?


I'm afraid the SENASA report IS the "serious government
research" of the phenomena. At least, that's their story and
they're sticking to it.

==JJS==








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   Jul > Jul 8

              Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@sprint.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 00:15:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:58:45 -0400
Subject: Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change - Lavoie


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:43:50 +1000
 >Subject: Re: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change

 >>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@sprint.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:54:19 -0300
 >>Subject: RDB Photo Shoot Time Address Change

 >>List,

 >>The web site displaying the methodology for calculating the time
 >>of day when the Fort Worth Ramey/DuBose photo shoot took place
 >>has been moved to a new site address.

http://pages.sprint.ca/rpitcanada_1_photoshoot/files/photo_shoot_time_001.htm

 >>For some reason, and I have not received an explanation by the
 >>service provider to my query, all of my files pertaining to that
 >>this web page only, were in-accessible. In an attempt to upload
 >>the files to the same site, the upload was not accepted. I had
 >>to build a new web site.
 >
 >>It will be interesting to see if the same thing occurs again.

 >Hi Andrew. Great work! :)
 >
 >Amazing in fact!

 >Is this method 100% accurate? Does it coincide with the alleged
 >time?

Thanks for your comments Dave,

The methodology uses actual measurable data from very reputable
sources. The calculations are based on established mathematical
principles. The pythagorean theorem has been around for a long
time. I would have to say that the methodology is 100% accurate
to within a twenty minute window.

With respect to coinciding with alleged time, I will quote Neil
Morris in his posting to UFO Updates on May 19th, "Significantly
this not only tells us when the image was taken, but also the
time the Ramey Message was being read by Gen Ramey and places
it's contents firmly in the Roswell Timeline in that 20 min
time-slot".

Now, here are some interesting observations, which I'm sure have
been noticed and discussed before, but maybe, in light of an
established photo shoot time, reviewing these observations again
might yield some more answers.

- Marcel right photo: paper bag is in front of rad, hat/tie on
rad. Nothing visible under middle chair.

- Marcel left photo: paper bag is in front of rad, hat/tie on
rad. Nothing visible under middle chair.

- Rmy Alone photo: photo cropped, paper bag & hat/tie not
visible. Nothing visible under the middle chair.

- Rmy Alone ST photo: photo cropped, paper bag & hat/tie not
visible. Something visible under the middle chair.

- RDB Grim photo: photo cropped, paper bag & hat/tie not
visible. Something visible under the middle chair.

- RDB smiling photo: paper bag is not in front of rad, hat & tie
on rad, something visible under the middle chair.

- Newton photo: paper bag is in front of rad, no hat & tie on
rad, nothing visible under the middle chair.

We now know the RDB Smiling photo was shot sometime between
4:05pm and 4:25pm on July 8th, 1947.

It's obvious that there was some movement of material, the paper
bag is proof of that.

Why is the paper bag missing in front of the rad in RDB Smiling
shot? Why is the paper bag back in front of the rad in the
Newton shot? Why is there material underneath the middle chair
in the Ramey Alone ST, RDB Grim and RDB Smiling photos and not
the Marcel, Ramey Alone and Newton photos?

Why is there so much activity taking place in the photos if the
debris is only a rawin target!

Andrew








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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #368

From: From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:13:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:00:16 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #368


Alfred's Odd Ode #368 (Monday, July 8, 2002)

A friend of mine's a Boyscout in the spirit of that word, so I'm
amazed and slack-jawed at the news that I've just heard! It's
claimed he's being shadowed by the classic men in black (!), and
that agents of our government do hound him. It's reported fact!

Yes! State police, alerted to the... possibility, would pull the
damn guy over (?) and then ask him what he needs! The shadow's
inconclusive, and it's not clear where he works, but he clearly
was a "G"-man, so I'm clearly on, profound, alert!

My friend is in harassment of a sort that I'd call fascist. It's
seems that he's denied the rule of law. It seems he is the focus
of our government's attention, When he hasn't done a freaking
thing at all.

It seems that they'd invade his home and pepper it with "bugs",
make his walls betrayers, planting stoolies in his rugs. They'd
make his HOME a traitor to the innocence he has. As I said, the
man's a Boyscout -- no hyperbole or specious jazz!

He cares for aging friends he has, he dotes upon his wife, and
he's beset by natural shocks that complicate his life. Superbly
educated, and a credit to his state, he volunteers his talents
and his time; so, he is truly great!

My friend is in harassment of a sort that I'd call fascist. It's
seems that he's denied the rule of law. It seems he is the focus
of our "government's" attention, When he hasn't done a flipping
thing at all!

Anyone who knows him knows he could not hurt a fly! He keeps a
pug, a tiny dog, that wounds him when it cries. He's all of
Norman Rockwell; he's our flag and chocolate cake. He pays his
bleeding taxes; why must he pay THIS unjust freight!

Now I'm outraged I'd tell you! Where do they GET their leave,
these men in black who DOG him and CONNIVE suspicious weaves? I
would think they've fish to fry beyond this boyscout's mean?
It's enough to make him fearful! It's enough to make him rage
and scream!

My friend is in harassment of a sort that I'd call fascist!
It's seems that he's denied the rule of law!
It seems he is the focus of our government's attention,
When he hasn't done a f__king thing at all!!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

I would have thought that our ponderous and hard tasked
government would have bigger fish to fry than to harass someone
as far within the law as my friend. Truly, to say that he is
within the law is, upon reflection, so much concentrated
understatement compacted into one spot, that the churlish
density of it approaches that of a despairing neutron star.

I am filled with so much betrayed disappointment and abject
disgust at these reports that I must speak out, forcefully,
against these scurrilous, cross purposed, and un-American
institutions that (inexplicably!) harass my INNOCENT friend.
They waste time and money, egregiously, investigating friends of
mine so far in antithesis of what they _should_ be investigating
that it is impossible for me to countenance or otherwise
tolerate! That they would risk my friends fine reputation, the
continuance of his much needed contribution, and stress him to
near breakdown (for arbitrary reasons) is so repellantly
compassionless and inordinately obdurate that it must be exposed
for what it is. or _no_ American citizen is safe! No one!

Leave this innocent man alone, dark agencies! Cease and desist
at once! Other innocent people depend on my friend for their
very existence and for any quality to their lives at all, you
thickly cloaked and insentiently secretive bastards! Moreover,
do not PRETEND that he must suffer injustice, tyranny, or live
your specious lie to continue to care for these aforementioned
others unmolested! That is a DESPICABLE trade, a gesture of
patent disrespect to all individual citizens, and an abomination
that one should never suffer in the America for which _I_ put my
ass on the line (through about five wars, occupations, or sundry
military police actions spread out over 23 years)!

My friend is braver than his tormentors, smarter than his
detractors, and more creative than his antagonists. I hope he
righteously _sues_ the government for this unconscionable
intrusion into his private life -- this too casual threat to his
civil rights and citizen sensibilities... they invaded his home,
good reader! They invaded his HOME!

What's next? Who's next? Verily, it is just such abstruse
behavior as this from the goons of these nameless dark agencies
(agencies bereft of and obviously needing rational oversight)
that gives a rabid dog like the gunned down William Cooper his
power and credibility! These same agencies can't put that
concept together, however... though maybe they do and just don't
care. Maybe its even part of their master plan of general
destabilization so non elected leaders can move at will for the
self-involved shadows of the elitist arbitrary. I'd bet on the
latter. You'd think folks at those levels just wouldn't be that
stupid! They're likely not.

This writer has to wonder if this is not the way the all-but-
forgotten John Ford started out on HIS path to unearned,
unjustified, and illogical perdition!

<http://www.alienview.net/fordpo.html>

That a man so far within the law (letter AND spirit) as my
friend could be treated very like a garden variety Islamic
terrorist... It offends my civic sensibility, my rational
patriotism, and my amply demonstrated loyalty to my country!
  Stop pussyfooting around with your artless cloak and silly
dagger and simply ask him what you want to know! Knock on his
freaking door!

Anything else is a ringing testament to your lack of
effectiveness, a sad indictment of your general invalidity, and
a poor judgement on your institutional efficacy. Cease this
destructive foolishness, NOW! You're, quite actually, better
employed ELSEWHERE.

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.










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   Jul > Jul 8

                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:37:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:06:43 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Sandow


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>The residuum of cases which have no easy explanation is the
 >>crux of the matter. The IFOs and cases without complete useful
 >>data are really not relevant.

 >Except what the IFOs tell us about witness unreliability. Why is
 >this such a difficult thing to accept? Without this, one will be
 >doomed to forever investigate the latest little light in the
 >sky.

If witnesses weren't at least a little reliable, there would be
no way to determine which sightings are IFOs. When we decide
that something is an IFO, we do it on the basis of information
that comes from the witness. Otherwise, our determinations would
be completely arbitrary. This isn't to say that sometimes
witnesses are totally out to lunch, and we can guess that they
saw something rather different from what they reported. But we
can't depend on cases like that. The only way we can be sure of
IFOs (or UFOs), is by reasoning from information the witnesses
give us. Otherwise -- to say this once again -- we're just
making determinations without any evidence.

 >Or, don't you give much credence to the run of the mill
 >Nocturnal Lights? If not, why not?

Run of the mill NLs usually don't give us much information, even
if they seem hard to explain. That means there's more ambiguity,
thus more possibility for several explanations. This doesn't say
anything, one way or the other, about witness reliability.


Greg Sandow








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                 Argentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays"

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:09:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:28:30 -0400
Subject: Argentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays"


SOURCE: El Cordillerano (newspaper)
DATE: Monday, July 8, 2002

**Theory Proposed by a Resident of Bariloche**
Mutilated Animals were Victims of Invisible Rays

For Carlos Arriagada, it is an absolutely natural phenomenon
which can be explained from the standpoint of physics. The
animals own hooves' would keep the energy which all other beings
would also receive from grounding.

Carlos Horacio Arriagada believes in the UFO phenomenon and in
fact had an unforgettable experience in April 1995,  when he ran
into "something" in the countryside. However, the death and
mutilation of animals that is taking place in certain parts of
the Argentinean countryside involves a natural phenomenon that
is perfectly explainable from the standpoint of Physics. The
responsible forces would certain rays which are invisible to the
human eye.

 From his business establishment in the San Francsico III
district, Arriagada disclosed his theory to "El Cordillerano" in
full detail. "The phenomenon is nothing new. There is awareness
of its existence for at least 200 years. [It ocurred] here in
Argentina nearly 30 years ago and it also happened in the U.S.,
Spain and other countries. The geographic characteristics of
where it occurs are rather similar, as are the characteristics
shared by the animals."

Through patient observation, the man found certain analogies.
"These things occur during certain periods of time, which are
rather pre-set in time for several months. No coherent and
verifiable explanation has been reached despite the studies
performed, even in the U.S.. People have resorted to magic, but
that is how humans have acted since prehistory," he said
ironically.

Arriagada considers that we must "first see the characteristics
of the area where the phenomenon is taking place. If analyzed,
we would find that in Argentina we have two very definite air
currents: one from the Pacific, which is cold, and another from
the Atlantic, which enters through southern Brazil and is warm.
When these two currents meet, the produce an atmospheric
differential."

The place where both currents meet presents another peculiarity:
"Uruguay, Cordoba, Santa Fe, Buenos Aires and la Pampa would be
the epicenter. It would be necessary to make an in-depth study,
but there is a high density of animals there. The phenomenon is
also registered in Rio Negro and Chubut, tehrefore making it
possible to draw a line through where these phenomena are taking
place....we appear to be discussing a natural environmental
problem, adn when something is natural, its form is neither
clear nor precise. Its manifestations follow a pattern, but it
is neither continuous nor perfectly deviant. There's been much
talk about aliens, but things made with large technology are
always similar and punctual. Natural causes have an evolving
shape within a pattern which at first is hard to find. That's
what occurs in this case."

According to his theory "the clash of currents may have produced
a high ionization of space, in other words, a release of
electrons which could be positive or negative. The other day I
was listening to a lady from Saliquello who had seen
considerable reddish light in the sky. The atmosphere is made up
by large quantities of nitrogen, which is more or less the major
component. In the light of ionization or the clash with very
fast electrons, nitrogen turns reddish."

This would explain the apparent UFO sightings. "Green balls can
also be seen, which are oxygen. The molecular gas of oxygen,
when faced by an accelerated force of free electrons, emits
green light. In other words, that it is possible to se reddish
sky or green lights, which means nothing abnormal. The blue
lights above may correspond to electromagnetic charges in
motion, because there is a considerable charge and current
throughout the area."

To Arriagada, the force responsible for the mystery is
imperceptible to the human eye: "There is a clear physical
phenomenon: the atmosphere is producing a large amount of
electron-free particles. To me, the death of these animals,
which all have hooves, is produced by rays as part of a natural
process. This would be because the electrons are placed before
the visible spectrum."

Consquently, "rays could be falling unseen. This is important
and can be verified--they are not bolts of lightning from
tropical storms nor normal storms. They could be lower in
voltage, but I cannot define this. Verification could be made by
satellite, easily." He invite those who have access to this
technology to make the verifications.

The rays in question would kill because "all of the animals
dying are ungulates, in other words, are hooved animals: cows,
sheep, guanacos and horses. And the hoof is producing these
animals' deaths. Unfortunately, the majority of the studies are
concentrating on the [animals'] heads, but they have forgotten
the essential part, because the hooves are dielectric, in other
words, insulating."

"This would explain the suspicious burns and cauterizations. In
cows, the nipples of the udder show that the animal was grounded
when it fell over. Notice that these are the soft parts of the
animal. What I can't define is whether the mutilation of the
head comes about upon receiving the ray or upon falling, because
the ray could fork into three upon striking. It wouldn't be
strange for it to enter through the animal's eye, ear or tongue,
with the latter being the likeliest, since it is the area with
the highest amount of moisture.

"This doesn't occur always. Certain conditions must be present.
Notice that it always occurs in the Pampas. Furthermore, we are
experiencing very dry conditions. Humidity conducts current, but
when the atomosphere is dry, the rays have a hard time reaching
the ground. They can probably remain in the atmosphere for a
while seeking ground, because there is no conductivity."
Unfortunately, the rays would find their outlet in certain
animals. Is the answer to the mystery?

==============================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, IHU.
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi and Gloria Coluchi.






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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 ><snip>

 >>There is a paradox operating in human reporting: much human
 >>testimony and reporting is notoriously unreliable, and great
 >>advances in science and other fields are based on highly
 >>reliable observation and reporting by people.

 >>That the great majority of UFO reports are found to be IFOs says
 >>volumes about the reliability of witness testimony.

 >Hi, Jan, everybody else:

<snip>

 >>The residuum of cases which have no easy explanation is the crux
 >>of the matter. The IFOs and cases without complete useful data
 >>are really not relevant.

 >Except what the IFOs tell us about witness unreliability. Why is
 >this such a difficult thing to accept? Without this, one will be
 >doomed to forever investigate the latest little light in the
 >sky.

There are IFOs and then there are IFOs. If Phil Klass claims
that the Incident at Exeter was a bunch of cops spooked by the
planet Jupiter, do we count that as an IFO and wave it at
believers and say, "see how myopic people can be"? I think with
some cases we have to draw a line and say, this is either a hoax
or its "genuine." Misperception cannot be a factor...or if it
is, we have to completely rewrite the book on human visual
perception. I think most scientists are loathe to re-write such
books.


Jim Speiser
Glendale, AZ








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               Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website - Kelleher

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:46:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:33:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website - Kelleher


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:57:09 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Two New Reports On NIDS Website
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:20:20 -0700
 >>Subject: Two New Reports On NIDS Website

 >>Two reports have recently appeared on the NIDS web site and may
 >>be of interest to your readers.

 >>Sincerely

 >>Colm Kelleher
 >>NIDS

 >Colm,

 >I understand that NIDS has had some staff/employee reduction and
 >emphasis is being placed towards Bigelow Aerospace as opposed to
 >its current emphasis. As I have heard supposedly you will still
 >be doing "some" but not to the degree you have done before.

 >We would appreciate any clarification or comment you might have.


Robert,

I can confirm that NIDS is expanding it's frame of reference
into the aerospace research topic, most of which constitutes
propietary research. A notice to that effect was put on our web
site a couple of months ago. Item two in our mission statement
also summarizes this fact. Therefore, both NIDS staff and NIDS
science advisory board now have dual and overlapping focus as we
align ourselves with Bigelow Aerospace.

NIDS is continuing, as before, to focus on our core
competencies: research into aerial phenomena and animal
mutilations. However, having accumulated about 1000 investigated
cases in the past couple of years, NIDS is now confining it's
attention to (i) those UFO cases that are associated with
possible physical evidence, analysis of which constitutes
another of our core competencies, (ii)cases involving multiple
eyewitnesses and  (iii) "close encounter" cases, (iv)
investigation of reports of animal mutilations. We are
continuing to work on an almost daily basis with members of our
science advisory board as well as with a network of high value
consultants.

So, to directly answer your question, no we are not sacrificing,
or placing less emphasis on, aerial phenomena/animal mutilation
research. Rather, we are expanding our mission to include
Bigelow Aerospace related projects.

Cheers

Colm Kelleher

NIDS







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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:13:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:11:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:08:04 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

<snip>

 >>Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS
 >>readings of Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough
 >>data that I can compute it from some accessible
 >>landmark? -LH

<snip>

 >Dear Larry:

 >I've spent the past few days in Show Low, and talked
 >with Mike at some length.

 >I did not ask him if the site had ever been surveyed
 >down to the degree/minute/second, and even if it had
 >been, I am certain he would not give me the exact
 >coordinates, or at least not allow their publication.

Maybe I left the wrong impression. This is for my database only,
not "publication" as on this list or in some journal.

My program only resolves to 20 seconds of Long & Lat., leaving a
margin of error of maybe a half-mile radius if both are off.
There is no way to determine from my numbers if the error is
smaller than that or not.

I had no intention of directing anyone to the exact spot, my
interest lies in mapping accuracy. I hate to be miles off when I
can indicate more closely.

 >He is very protective of the actual site, in
 >the interests of securing it from contamination.
 >I concur with his reasoning here, as I'm sure you
 >do as well.

Oh yes, absolutely!

Best!

- Larry








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                       Robert Gates Please Phone Home!

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:56:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:13:11 -0400
Subject: Robert Gates Please Phone Home!

Robert,

I would be glad to answer your offline inquiry about a UFO case,
but I tried twice and was informed that you have me screened
out!

  - Dick Hall







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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:17:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:00:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >Depends, of course, on the description and magnitude of the
 >motion. As we have recently learned (if we didn't know already)
 >the autokinetic effect is limited to small apparent motions,
 >less than a degree. hence if the observer describes large angle
 >motion (many degrees) we can assume it wasn't the aurokinetic
 >effect (or the observer was seriously exaggerating the
 >autokinetic effect). The impressive cases are the ones where the
 >observer(s) says the light/object was first seen "here"
 >(direction) and ;last seen "over there" (another direction) and
 >the angle between the directions is many degrees.

Ok - I have a feeling that this "less than a degree" criterion I
mentioned in a previous post is in danger of becoming engraved
in stone, so I'd like to point out that one should always
exercise judgement and discernment in applying this criterion.
It will obviously apply in a straightforward way on a clear and
frosty night in the countryside when many stars are visible
close together. Things aren't so straightforward when only a few
stars are visible and reference points are far apart - hence my
point earlier that the magnitude of any autokinetic effect would
be to some extent proportional to the distance between fixed
reference points.

However if some target object were to be described as within a
degree (or a few degrees) of some reference point, and at a
later time were to be described as within a degree (or a few
degrees) of some other, different reference pint, and the two
reference points were sufficiently many degrees apart, then one
could pretty conclusively rule out autokinetic effects as an
explanation in this case.

As far as Venus being misperceived as a silver disk goes,
there's another perhaps more powerful principle one can apply,
and that is the size/distance algorithm - which requires that
for an image of given angular diameter, perceived size and
distance must vary in a constant ratio.  This rules out the
misperception of small, distant objects as large, close objects.
Consequently I'm highly skeptical of John Rimmer's proposition,
that misperceptions of Venus could provide an explanation in
close encounter cases - I guess it would depend, though, on how
close was the encounter.

<snip>

 >Seldom. Does that mean the sometimes... once in a while... or at
 >least once in history... there are (once was) a case that was
 >credible, with multiple witnesses who are themselves credible?

I'm more concerned about some of the subtexts underlying this
assumed importance of "multiple" and "credible" witnesses. What
is assumed to be gained by having multiple as opposed to
individual witnesses, and what defines whether a witness is
"credible"?  I suspect some psychosocial constructs may well be
exercising undue influence over the meaning of these terms.


Cathy








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:03:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:00 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>All too often alleged
 >>multiple witness cases - like for example the much-vaunted
 >>Trindade Island photo case - on examination turn out to be
 >>single witness cases with reports of other witnesses. When
 >>sought for these other witnesses turn out to be as elusive as
 >>he UFOs themselves!

 >Um... who was the sole witness to Trindade?

The photographer, Almiro Barauna

 >What evidence have
 >you that there was only one witness?

To quote from Magonia Supplement, No. 1, March 1998:

The Trinidade Island sighting of 16 January 1958 should provide
a good case for consideration by ETH proponents. Four reasonably
good photographs of a mysterious Saturn-shaped flying object
taken from the deck of the Brazilian Navy vessel Almirante
Saldanha and plenty of witnesses. Jerome Clark's verdict on it
is:

Given the number of witnesses, the results of photoanalyses both
military and civilian, and the need for debunkers to reinvent
the incident to explain it, it seems most unlikely that the
Trinidade photographs were hoaxed. (6)

Well, what are the agreed facts of this case? I was astonished
to discover, on re-examining the literature on this incident
that some of the most basic and presumably easily ascertainable
facts are very much in dispute. For example, how many witnesses
were there? Well, it depends on whether you are a believer or a
sceptic. And if you are a sceptic it depends whether you believe
the photographs were faked or that they are genuine and that
they portray an aircraft or some natural phenomenon. Dr Menzel
originally thought the photographs showed an aircraft flying
through cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

Believers conveniently fail to mention something about the
photographer that the sceptics gleefully emphasise: he was well
known for his trick photography. I wonder why?

Now we come to the really crazy bit. When we ask the obvious
question: How many witnesses were there? - what is the answer?
Again, it depends entirely on whether you are a believer or a
sceptic. According to Coral Lorenzen: Rio de Janeiro's Ultima
Hora on February 21 reported that at least a hundred individuals
had witnessed the sighting of the object . . . (7) The US Naval
Attache in Rio de Janeiro, evidently a dedicated sceptic, wrote
in his report to Project Blue Book:

The Assistant Naval Attache... had an opportunity to visit
aboard [the Almirante Saldanha]. The commanding officer... had
not seen the object and was noncommittal. The executive officer
also had not seen it but, arriving shortly thereafter, had
formed the opinion that those on deck had seen it. The captain
reported that his secretary, a LCDR, had seen it but this
officer when personally questioned avoided discussing the
matter. (8)

Sceptics insist that there were no witnesses, despite assertions
from believers that their testimonies were published in
Brazilian newspapers. If there really were many witnesses, then
the photographs are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no
witnesses, it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by
a photographer who purported to take pictures of something which
nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

(6) Jerome Clark, The UFO Book. Visible Ink, Detroit, 1998,
     p.212

(7) Coral Lorenzen, Flying Saucers. Signet, New York, 1966,
     p.168

(8) J A Hynek, The Hynek UFO Report. Sphere, London, p.248

-------------

To say the least, the question of multiple witnesses seems
ambiguous. Even if reports were published in Brazilian
newspapers, were these direct quotes from interviews of the
witnesses by the reporters, or were they relayed through a third
or fourth party? Jerome Clark in his "UFO Encyclopedia" says "48
crew members and passengers" spotted an object approaching the
island, and quotes the photographer, Almiro Barauna, as naming a
number of people who pointed out an object to him. But we only
have Barauna's word for that, as nowhere do they appear to have
given their testimony directly to a third party.

Later Clark says "a number of witnesses gave interviews to
newspapers", but the only quotation which is given is of a naval
official who says the object was not a meteorological ballon
because "the one we launched that day was released at 9 a.m. two
[sic] hours before the appearance of the object in the sky". So
this is not an interview with a witness, but simply an official
quoting from his department's log.

Another quotation is from "a [unnamed] naval source" who told
the investigator Olave Fontes that the ship's radar had tracked
an unknown object the day before the photograph was taken, and a
surgeon at a Rio hospital whose family had seen a "Saturn-
shaped" UFO off the coast in the direction of Trindade Island.
As Tridade is 600 miles off the coast of Brazil one wonders what
relevance it has to this case.

Later, a Brazilian reporter quotes another "unnamed source" as
reporting that instruments and transmitters on the island ceased
operating when the UFO was near.

So the "multiple witnesses" turn out to be the photographer,
some people whom the photographer says were there but are never
quoted directly, someone at least six hundred miles away, a
couple of "unnamed sources" and some other unnamed people "who
gave interviews to newspapers", but of whom we know nothing else
- nor it seems have their interviews ever been published in the
UFO literature or translated into English.

So hardly the cast-iron, multiple-witness case as advertised!
And this, I am afraid is the pattern for other "multiple-
witness" cases. As I said - the witnesses are as elusive as the
UFOs.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                            Foo Fighter Footnote

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:00:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:39:33 -0400
Subject: Foo Fighter Footnote


List,

As many of you may or may not be aware, there is a Foo Fighter
report of sorts recounted in Martin Caidin's "Black Thursday,"
the story of the disastrous Oct. 1944 Schweinfurt daylight
bombing raid.

Crewmembers of the 384th Bomb Group (I'm typing off the top of
my head, but I think that's the right number) reported
encountering a swarm of small disks, on the order of two to
three inches across, which were allegedly seen to pass through
wing surfaces with no apparent damage. Accompanying the disks
was crumpled, dark-foil stuff.

Caidin, in a footnote, even cited the number of the debriefing
report supposedly filed with military authorities. I and others
have filed an FOIA request for same w/o notable success.

While sorting through the mountain of paper in my old house in
order to move a lot less of it to my new one, I came across a
letter from one Ross Milton (General USAF ret.) which I had
completely forgotten about. In fact, I can't even remember how I
found his address. Here it is, though, in its entirety.
Unfortunately, he only dated it 8 January, so I don't even know
what year it was written in, although it was probably at least a
good decade or more ago. A nearby letter from another
correspondent was dated Dec. 1, 1988.

---

Dear Mr. Stacy,

Please forgive this late reply. Like you, I am also a writer
and the deadlines interfere with the correspondence.

As you may know, I led that 14 October raid, or, at least, I
led the parade in my airplane with a small 91st Group formation.
Peaslee always claimed he commanded the affair from a position
behind us.

Be that as it may, I don't recall seeing black discs or hearing
about any strange phenomena from any of my group. I did see the
new Luftwaffe jets later in the war but not that day."

---

The above is for the record. MJ-12 enthusiasts might note that,
even long in retirement, Gen. Milton continued to use the day
month format w/o a comma.

Another correspondent around the same time frame noted that
Eisenhower was the head Army honcho in 1947 (or something of the
sort), yet the so-called MJ-12 briefing document addresses
Eisenhower as if he had never heard of the incident. How the
heck does that square with military procedure? Stan, Kevin,
anyone?

Dennis Stacy








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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:47:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:46:02 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 ><snip>

 >>There is a paradox operating in human reporting: much human
 >>testimony and reporting is notoriously unreliable, and great
 >>advances in science and other fields are based on highly
 >>reliable observation and reporting by people.

 >>That the great majority of UFO reports are found to be IFOs says
 >>volumes about the reliability of witness testimony.

 >Hi, Jan, everybody else:

 >But, the unreliability, or inability, of these IFO witnesses to
 >correctly interpret what they have witnessed.

No, you missed it again, Bob. You nearly always miss the point
and go off into never-never land. During the vast majority of
controlled scientific experiments there is a great deal of data
which is ruined, unreliable, and incomplete.

Note the word here, Bob, "controlled". Now what happens with
UFOs is unprepared observers suddenly see something that is
unfamiliar to there experience. It has nothing, nothing, Bob, to
do with witness reliability.

 ><snip>

 >>The residuum of cases which have no easy explanation is the crux
 >>of the matter. The IFOs and cases without complete useful data
 >>are really not relevant.

 >Except what the IFOs tell us about witness unreliability.

No, they don't, Bob, as you have conceded in the past, IFO tells
that the witnesses described what they saw with enough
information _and_reliability_ that answers to their observations
are readily apparent. This has nothing to do with reliability;
perhaps it has something to do with knowledgeability which is
different.

 >Why is
 >this such a difficult thing to accept? Without this, one will be
 >doomed to forever investigate the latest little light in the sky.

 >Or, don't you give much credence to the run of the mill
 >Nocturnal Lights? If not, why not?

Bob, I know you have trouble reading! I have never said any such
thing about night lights, or any other things, which have
little or no value in determining if something unique is going
on. These observations are of little value, as they contain
little information.

One would be interested in objects of at least the angular-size
of the full moon, which are observed which are described by more
than one observer, and observed for over three minutes. That is
the ideal threshold.

Once again, I will thank you not to put words in my mouth!


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                      Chupacabras Blamed For Lamb Death

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:00:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:54:00 -0400
Subject: Chupacabras Blamed For Lamb Death


Chupacabras Blamed for Mysterious Lamb Death

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net
7-7-2

Source: La Estrella del Loa


Calama, Chile - In light of recent reports of a mysterious being
jumping on rooftops, neighbors from the Manuel Rodriguez area in
Calama witnessed yet another bizarre event that included the
death of a lamb. The incident took place last Friday at a home
near the local mall.

The incident was reported to this newspaper (La Estrella del Loa
- ed.) via telephone at around 10 in the morning. A group of
investigative reporters were dispatched immediately to the
scene.

After following directions from a resident that identified
himself only as "Samuel" on the the phone, the journalists
arrived at a home located at 3448 Balmaceda Avenue, where
several people, including local residents, awaited for the
members of press.

After crossing a narrow corridor, they were led to a backyard
where they found the gruesome scene of the bloodstained lamb.
The animal was found lying flat on the ground a few centimeters
away from the entrance to the corral.

Several scratch marks were found on the ground, which were
similar to the ones found on the dead animal. The marks were at
different locations of the scene; some were at the entrance of
the corral, and some were located as far as the back entrance of
the property. All the marks were similar; they were all showing
three parallel lines, one or two centimeters apart.

The possibility of a predator attack was very likely. The
property owner showed reporters the puncture wounds around the
neck area of the carcass.

After asking people a few questions, the reporters soon realized
who the property owner was: It was a quiet man, who was very shy
and didn't want to provide too many details about his personal
background for fear of being ridiculed. On the other hand,
neighbor Herminio Guzman Amurrio, told reporters what happened.
"This happened at about 2:30 in the morning. I heard some
noises, as if there were dogs running on the roof. I member the
noises because I was already awake; I go to work very early
because I'm a baker", said Guzman.

Guzman lives by himself; he lost his wife some time ago.
Overwhelmed by the curiosity, he decided to step outside to find
out what was causing the noise; however, he did not find
anything out of the ordinary. He went back inside and returned
to his early morning tasks. Minutes later, he went to work at
the bakery as usual and forgot about the strange noises for a
while, until he returned home and saw what happened at his
neighbor's house. When he arrived at the property, Samuel called
him to show him the dead animal.

After "breaking the ice", but always avoiding the camera, Samuel
began talking a little more to the journalists. He told them his
wife was the one who convinced him to report the incident to the
newspaper, minutes after finding the carcass. He also stated
that the he had just gotten the lamb the day before. He admitted
that the corral door was not closed properly due to a
malfunction with the latch.

After consulting his opinion, he confessed the thought of the
Chupacabras being involved in the death of his lamb did come to
mind a few times. He said it was unavoidable to think about it
after several reports came from his own neighborhood a few days
ago, to which they mentioned the presence of a strange creature
jumping on top of the roofs.

Although his answers and statements were somewhat evasive and
vague, Samuel did state that to say that dogs caused this
horrible death would be totally absurd. On the other hand, he
admitted that one of his dogs was very mean, but incapable to
kill an animal in that grotesque manner.

Neither Samuel, nor his family of five (four adults), recall
hearing any noises that night. After facing the death of his
only livestock, he soon realized that nothing will bring the
animal back; therefore it would be a waste of time to keep on
lamenting for the loss. He believes it is unnecessary to give
too much importance to this incident, but he will make himself
available for questioning in case any report needs to be filed
by the police.

Jaime Ferrer,
Calama UFO Center

Translation by Mario Andrade







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                             Re: Mutes? - Belzil

From: Fernand Belzil <fbelzil@telusplanet.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:36:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:58:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Mutes? - Belzil


 >From: Elaine Tassin <Blueziana@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:19:26 EDT
 >Subject: Mutes?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I have been studying these mutilations, reading everything posted,
 >and a thought keeps popping in my head. I am wondering, if our,
 >meaning Earth animals, are being used as food, and possibly for
 >some form of breeding....making Frankinaliens, or Aliensteins...'
 >Another thought comes to mind, has there really been anything
 >called Mad Cow disease, prior to mutilations?

 >I will sit back chewing my cud, wondering if anyone else's
 >brain runs on my track.


Elaine:

I have been investigating mutilations now for six years (I
prefer to call them U.A.D`s unidentified animal death) and have
been to over 60 cases so far.

Never has any meat been taken for consumption.

I arrive at that conclusion because I have seen many incisions
that appeared to be done with a laser, indicating that intense
heat had been used.

In my presentations I prove my point by showing several photos,
where the hide has been removed and the flesh has not been touched
or even scratched.

To this day I have never found hide that had been removed.

As for using them for breeding purposes, maybe, by taking semen
and artificial breeding.

As for your question about Mad Cow Disease, I don`t get the
connection.

If you are interested in seeing a photo of what I am talking
about, let me know.


Fernand Belzil








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                 Re: Robert Gates Please Phone Home! - Gates

From: RGates8254@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:14:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:00:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Robert Gates Please Phone Home! - Gates


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Robert Gates Please Phone Home!
 >Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:56:57 +0000

 >Robert,

 >I would be glad to answer your offline inquiry about a UFO case,
 >but I tried twice and was informed that you have me screened
 >out!

 >- Dick Hall

Dick,

My goof. I had made an attempt to block unwanted spam and had
the domain hotmail.com which probably took your email out. I
have changed it so please try again.

Loved the title of your email "please phone home." Reminded me
of ET and when I was taking care of some business with my radio
show the local hosts were doing a piece on SETI adding dishes to
their network. They were going to be using the Karen Carpenter
classic "Calling occupants of Interplantary space craft.." as a
lead in or lead out to the story. Anyway, 'phone home' was
perfect for the day.


Cheers,

Robert








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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:31:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:27:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Gates


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:08:04 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:03 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 ><snip>

 >>Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
 >>Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
 >>it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
 >>direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

 >>Here, Jim, is a map of the Western USA so you can see some of
 >>what I do with the info:

 >>http://www.larryhatch.net/WESTUSA.html

 >I've spent the past few days in Show Low, and talked with Mike
 >at some length.

 >I did not ask him if the site had ever been surveyed down to the
 >degree/minute/second, and even if it had been, I am certain he
 >would not give me the exact coordinates, or at least not allow
 >their publication. He is very protective of the actual site, in
 >the interests of securing it from contamination.

 >I concur with his reasoning here, as I'm sure you do as well.

Dear Jim and Larry,

First off let me say, up front, that based upon the evidence I
believe the case to be real/legitimate.

Was Mike planning to go back to where the incident took place? I
would imagine that Mike will find an entire forest of blackened,
burned trunks sticking out of the ground and perhaps, fallen
trees, over roads. Is the Forest Service going to open any of
that area up any time soon?

Now for the 'stupid' question...

I don't understand why are we worried about contamination at
this point. The incident took place 27 years ago. Most, if not
all, the evidence would be "contaminated" - not to mention any
'evidence' that may have been left, say, in the the trees, or
whatever, is now history.

The thought also occurs to me, has anybody ever searched for
so-called evidence in the previous 27 years, prior to the place
being burned to the ground?

It strikes me that this is similar (not identical) to saying
that we don't want to provide the location of the house where
Green Beret doctor Jeffrey McDonald was alleged to have killed
his family, 30 years ago because it might become contaminated.

The truth is whether its the Walton Incident, or the house where
the Mcdonald family got killed, both sites are heavily
contaminated.

 >However, here is some info that may be of some help to you. I
 >was looking at a map of the Rodeo/Chedeski fire this morning,
 >and located the local geographical area called "Turkey Springs."
 >It is in this rough area that the alleged incident occurred.
 >Turkey Springs is indeed about 9 miles due south of Heber, and
 >just a little west. It is right on the edge of the Mogollon
 >Rim. It is fairly easy to locate if you have a USGS topo map or
 >other map showing local geographical names. That is about the
 >best resolution I can give you at this point.

If Larry wants I can send him a .bmp or .jpg of the map showing
that specific area.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jul > Jul 9

                          Secrecy News -- 07/08/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:44:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:30:28 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/08/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 60
July 8, 2002


**FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AROUND THE WORLD
**THE WEN HO LEE CASE REVISITED
**RECENT FOIA DECISIONS
**GOETHE'S THEORY OF COLORS RECONSIDERED


FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AROUND THE WORLD

"In the last decade, 26 countries have enacted formal statutes
guaranteeing their citizens' right of access to government
information. Elsewhere, even without legal guarantees, citizens
are asserting their right to know. Throughout the world, freedom
of information movements are changing the definition of
democratic governance."

That is the premise of freedominfo.org, a new web site that is
intended to serve as an international resource on freedom of
information policy.

"This site is a one-stop portal that describes best practices,
consolidates lessons learned, explains campaign strategies and
tactics, and links the efforts of freedom-of-information
advocates around the world," according to the new site, which is
sponsored by the National Security Archive.  See:

http://www.freedominfo.org/


THE WEN HO LEE CASE REVISITED

The aborted espionage investigation of former Los Alamos
scientist Wen Ho Lee continues to provide food for thought and
controversy.

In a pointed exchange of letters in Commentary magazine (July-
August 2002), former Energy Department intelligence official
Notra Trulock defends his role in the Lee case against probing
criticism leveled by Commentary editor Gabriel Schoenfeld.
  Other letter writers criticize the use of polygraph testing and
question FBI competence.  See:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/letters.htm#C

Recent books on the case by reporters Dan Stober and Ian
Hoffman, and by Wen Ho Lee himself, are reviewed by Wolfgang
K.H. Panofsky in the July-August issue of American Scientist:

http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/Leads02/02-07Lpanofsky.html

The two books are also reviewed by Stephen I. Schwartz in the
latest Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists [www.thebulletin.org]
(not yet online).

None of the histories of the Wen Ho Lee case published so far
has seen fit to recall the protester at a September 2000
demonstration in New Mexico who held up a drawing of a pinto
bean with the caption: "Free Ho Lee."


RECENT FOIA DECISIONS

The Justice Department Office of Information and Privacy has
published summaries of the latest judicial decisions in Freedom
of Information Act cases.  See "New FOIA Decisions, April-June
2002," part of a continuing series, here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2002foiapost15.htm

The pending Federation of American Scientists Freedom of
Information Act lawsuit against the CIA that seeks
declassification of the current intelligence budget total was
noted by Vernon Loeb in his July 1 "IntelligenCIA" column in the
Washington Post online here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61499-2002Jun28.html


GOETHE'S THEORY OF COLORS RECONSIDERED

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) is remembered as a poet
(Faust), a novelist (Sorrows of Young Werther, Elective
Affinities, Wilhelm Meister), and a titan of German and European
culture.  Few would think of him primarily, or at all, as a
notable scientific figure.

But to Goethe himself, "his Theory of Colors was the work which
he believed had earned him a major place in world history,"
wrote Rudiger Safranski.

"Of whatever I have achieved as a poet I have no high opinion at
all," Goethe said in his Conversations with Eckermann.  "There
were excellent poets living alongside me, there were even more
excellent ones before me, and there will be such poets after me.
  But that in my century I alone am the one who in the difficult
science of color theory knows the truth-- that I consider a
feather in my cap, and I therefore have a sense of superiority
over many."

The problem is that "Goethe's explanation of color makes no
physical sense at all," wrote physicist Deane B. Judd in a 1969
introduction to the translation of Goethe's 1810 Farbenlehre
(Theory of Colors).

And yet there is rigor in Goethe's experiments with color and
originality in his investigation that have kept this odd volume
alive for nearly two centuries.

These qualities are newly examined by Neil Ribe and Friedrich
Steinle in the latest issue of Physics Today.  See their article
"Exploratory Experimentation: Goethe, Land, and Color Theory"
here:

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-55/iss-7/p43.html

The literary critic Erich Heller memorably discussed "Goethe and
the Idea of Scientific Truth" in his 1975 book "The Disinherited
Mind: Essays in Modern German Literature and Thought."


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                 Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:23:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:32:27 -0400
Subject: Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Maccabee


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List


 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

<snip>

 >>There is a paradox operating in human reporting: much human
 >>testimony and reporting is notoriously unreliable, and great
 >>advances in science and other fields are based on highly
 >>reliable observation and reporting by people.

 >>That the great majority of UFO reports are found to be IFOs says
 >>volumes about the reliability of witness testimony.

 >Hi, Jan, everybody else:

 >But, the unreliability, or inability, of these IFO witnesses to
 >correctly interpret what they have witnessed.

Yes... interpret: keyword, interpret.

It is the job of the investigator to separate _observation_ from
_interpretation_ (by the witness(es)). THe mere fact that most
sightings can be explained by investigators based on witness
descriptions indicates that most witness descriptions have some
level of accuracy, otherwise the investigator couldn't figure
out what the witness(es) saw. So, an amusing irony: a large
percentage of explained cases argues _for_ some reasonable level
of witness accuracy.

The question is, then, does this level of witness accuracy
carry over to the cases for which there appears to be no
explanation?

One could try to get away with the arguement (as the skeptics
often do, indirectly if not directly) that all the witnesses
whose cases were explained were accurate and that all the
witnesses whose cases are unexplained are inaccurate. That
argument makes no sense when applied to _some_ of the cases
which cannot be explained. In these cases the witnesses provide
considerable details that indicate a large level of accuracy.


 >>The residuum of cases which have no easy explanation is the crux
 >>of the matter. The IFOs and cases without complete useful data
 >>are really not relevant.

 >Except what the IFOs tell us about witness unreliability. Why is
 >this such a difficult thing to accept? Without this, one will be
 >doomed to forever investigate the latest little light in the
 >sky.

Here we see this argument again: the existence of IFO cases
implies witness unreliability. This is true if you stick to the
witness' _interpretation_ of what was seen. However, if you
extract only the observational data ( let an investigator
analyze that) and arrive at an explanation then the ability to
deduce a reasonable explanation from the reported observational
data is evidence of witness reliability.








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               Re: rgentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays" -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:23:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:35:13 -0400
Subject: Re: rgentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays" -


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:09:00 -0400
 >Subject: Argentine Mutes "Victims Of Invsible Rays"


 >SOURCE: El Cordillerano (newspaper)
 >DATE: Monday, July 8, 2002

 >**Theory Proposed by a Resident of Bariloche**
 >Mutilated Animals were Victims of Invisible Rays

 >For Carlos Arriagada, it is an absolutely natural phenomenon
 >which can be explained from the standpoint of physics. The
 >animals own hooves' would keep the energy which all other beings
 >would also receive from grounding.

<snip>

 >According to his theory "the clash of currents may have produced
 >a high ionization of space, in other words, a release of
 >electrons which could be positive or negative.

When something like this happens, usually at high altitude, the
"clash of currents" combined with freezing of water droplets can
create ions... positive and negative (free electrons and ionized
gas, mostly nitrogen) and the result can be a charge buildup
between the earth and the atmosphere or between two altitude
levels of atmosphere and the result is well known .....
lightning!

But, um, electrons are not both negative and positive.

 >The other day I
 >was listening to a lady from Saliquello who had seen
 >considerable reddish light in the sky. The atmosphere is made up
 >by large quantities of nitrogen, which is more or less the major
 >component. In the light of ionization or the clash with very
 >fast electrons, nitrogen turns reddish."

 >This would explain the apparent UFO sightings.

Um, try again. Better yet, don't bother.
Even the skeptics can't swallow this one (I hope).

 >"Green balls can
 >also be seen, which are oxygen. The molecular gas of oxygen,
 >when faced by an accelerated force of free electrons, emits
 >green light. In other words, that it is possible to se reddish
 >sky or green lights, which means nothing abnormal. The blue
 >lights above may correspond to electromagnetic charges in
 >motion, because there is a considerable charge and current
 >throughout the area."

 >To Arriagada, the force responsible for the mystery is
 >imperceptible to the human eye: "There is a clear physical
 >phenomenon: the atmosphere is producing a large amount of
 >electron-free particles. To me, the death of these animals,
 >which all have hooves, is produced by rays as part of a natural
 >process. This would be because the electrons are placed before
 >the visible spectrum."

Huh?

 >Consquently, "rays could be falling unseen. This is important
 >and can be verified--they are not bolts of lightning from
 >tropical storms nor normal storms. They could be lower in
 >voltage, but I cannot define this. Verification could be made by
 >satellite, easily." He invite those who have access to this
 >technology to make the verifications.

 >The rays in question would kill because "all of the animals
 >dying are ungulates, in other words, are hooved animals: cows,
 >sheep, guanacos and horses. And the hoof is producing these
 >animals' deaths. Unfortunately, the majority of the studies are
 >concentrating on the [animals'] heads, but they have forgotten
 >the essential part, because the hooves are dielectric, in other
 >words, insulating."

 >"This would explain the suspicious burns and cauterizations. In
 >cows, the nipples of the udder show that the animal was grounded
 >when it fell over. Notice that these are the soft parts of the
 >animal. What I can't define is whether the mutilation of the
 >head comes about upon receiving the ray or upon falling, because
t>he ray could fork into three upon striking. It wouldn't be
 >strange for it to enter through the animal's eye, ear or tongue,
 >with the latter being the likeliest, since it is the area with
 >the highest amount of moisture.

 >"This doesn't occur always. Certain conditions must be present.
 >Notice that it always occurs in the Pampas. Furthermore, we are
 >experiencing very dry conditions. Humidity conducts current, but
 >when the atomosphere is dry, the rays have a hard time reaching
 >the ground. They can probably remain in the atmosphere for a
 >while seeking ground, because there is no conductivity."
 >Unfortunately, the rays would find their outlet in certain
 >animals.

Is the answer to the mystery?

No. Is not the answer to the mystery.

He appears to be suggesting that oionic currents that exist
always in the atmosphere and which build up electric potential
in the atmosphere (many volts per meter, for example) are
charging up the animals because their hooves act like
instulators. Then eventually the charge builds up to a point
where a discharge takes place.  I don't know what be refers to
as a "ray" unless it is essentially a lightning stroke from
above to the animal.

Makes no sense.

Wouldn't explain precise excisions, etc.

I am again reminded of the debunkers' first rule: any
explanation is better than none.

And the P.T. Barnum version: any explanation that uses a lot of
technical jargon will sound convincing to most people (a.k.a.
suckers) each minute.....








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                Re: CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness - Heath

From: Gord Heath <gwheath@shaw.ca>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:38:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:38:06 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness - Heath


 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:45:09 +0000
 >Subject: CCCRN News: Circular Conciousness

 >CCCRN NEWS
 >The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

 >http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

 >July 7, 2002


Hi Paul,

I was interested to finally read some of your personal
viewpoints related to your area of study. I thought it
interesting to find out that you have been similarly influenced
by Talbot's book 'The Holographic Universe'. I think it was
partly as a result of this book that I began to appreciate that
there seems to be some sort of a connection between some of
these strange aspects of the universe.

I have a personal experience that relates to my grandmother. I
never got to know her very well as I didn't see her often and
she spoke very little English, but I always felt a strong sense
of non verbal communication with her. Oddly enough I was to find
out after she died that she had kept a very important artifact
for me for about thirty years. It was a gift selected for her
the day after a most amazing experience I had as a child where I
met someone I was with in my previous incarnation. This man told
me about an experience we shared in my last life. I am still
trying to find out the rest of the story that goes with this
experience, but it is certainly a story that would challenge the
belief systems of many people if it is true.

I wish to take this opportunity to say that I very much
appreciate reading from the many interesting news source links
you supply in your updates. I also wish to say that I was quite
impressed with the interview on the local Global news.


Gord Heath
UFOBC








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                             Re: Mutes? - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:32:01 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:40:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Mutes? - Kelly


 >From: Elaine Tassin <Blueziana@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:19:26 EDT
 >Subject: Mutes?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Greetings... everyone,

 >I have been studying these mutilations, reading everything posted,
 >and a thought keeps popping in my head. I am wondering, if our,
 >meaning Earth animals, are being used as food, and possibly for
 >some form of breeding....making Frankinaliens, or Aliensteins...'
 >Another thought comes to mind, has there really been anything
 >called Mad Cow disease, prior to mutilations?

 >I will sit back chewing my cud, wondering if anyone else's
 >brain runs on my track.


Hello Elaine and List,

I'm not sure about the origins of Mad Cow disease or when the
first cases were recorded. What little I found seemed to have
its origins in South Africa, but please don't quote me on that.
I haven't really looked into it all that closely and only had a
quick look on the net after you brought up the subject Elaine.

What these cows could be used for, on the other hand, is
something I have been thinking about for quite a while. As gross
as it may seem I do think it possible and even logical that
these animals would be used for the purpose making an
environmentally friendly body.

It is common knowledge now that the human body is not suited for
life in a zero gravity environment nor can the human body stand
prolonged periods around strong magnetic fields. The only way I
can see of getting around these problems is to grow a purpose
made body. A cows reproductive s ystem seems ideally suited for
just such a purpose.

Using the the standard form of reproduction as we know it, is I feel,
not a sensible option, also it would seem ET's grow these bodies to
about 1 meter or 3 or so feet. This means it would be a body ready to
go and be able too hit the floor running.

I almost through this theory out the door after one of the list
members pointed out during one of the many debates over the AA
film, that the Alien in it didn't have a belly button. So how
could it have been made? Well I am leaning toward the theory
that it was grown. If one was to make a body totally suitable
for life in a zero G environment and able to handle strong
magnetic fields one would have to incorporate DNA from another
organic that can handle these environments. (Ideally speaking of
course). The only organic I can find on Earth that does like and
handle magnetic fields is plants. (Maybe the stories of green
blooded Aliens isn't as much fiction as we believe??)

So by having incorporated DNA from a plant it would mean the body is
grown and the body would take in the required nutrients through
its skin, I guess. Either that or the umbilical cord is somewhere else
on the body. Without having an Alien body to examine I cannot be sure.
Anyway I could rave on until the cows come home about my silly theories
and get really deep into how they could, or do, get conscious thought
into these purpose grown bodies, which is a science in its self.

Anyhoo, I'm one who is also very interested and thinking about
such things Elaine, maybe even thinking about it all a little
too much at times. But it keeps me busy and off the streets.


Cheers,

Chris (Tophar)









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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:56:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:42:32 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich

Jan wrote:

 >There is nothing wrong with being a skeptic! One should expect
 >proof, arguments laid out in a logical manner, and material
 >which can be checked.

Jan,

Doubtless you will concur that the most significant evidential
material includes original witness statements, especially if
uncovered many years later and which relate to a founding 'UFO'
case.

During September 1997, you kindly, and always appreciated, sent
myself copies of Barry Greenwood's 'Rendlesham files' and I duly
advised you how these, astonishingly, contained previously
unpublished copies of those pivotal witness testimonies which
Col. Halt acknowledged obtaining following that inaugural
'Rendlesham forest' UFO incident.

Despite my repeated requests to reveal this fundamental
evidence, albeit it did confirm how a coastal lighthouse had at
least partly been mistaken for a 'UFO' and in such a critical
case, no such permission was forthcoming.

It was in March, 1998, that I concluded the evidence absolutely
had to be made available - for the full background, see:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/v15.txt


If you are now evidently embracing 'skepticism', why did you not
then support that such vital case evidence must be revealed?

Instead, you resultantly protested on this list:

"I sent Easton the entire file that Greenwood had compiled on
this case - at least 5 linear inches. After less than a day,
Jamie-boy had the answer. Not likely."

No, Jan. Not remotely close to the truth.

Perhaps now it will be explained, as requested more than once,
why that astounding evidence - bearing in mind it relates to one
of the most significant 'UFO' incidents - was not publicised by
Barry and all who were aware of it.

Was it because those original witness statements were
devastating to 'UFO' perceptions, or were they never realised to
be unpublished, crucial evidence - all five of those first-hand
testimonies?

And why, Jan, seven months later, was I compelled to disclose
such momentous case evidence, with abjectly zero support and
consequential, hardly 'skeptical' diatribe?


James Easton

E-mail: voyager@ukonline.co.uk








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                        Marian Apparitions Anthology

From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@netcabo.pt>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:21:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:46:43 -0400
Subject: Marian Apparitions Anthology


Dear List members,

I am searching for papers research, comments and hypothesis on
the multi-disciplinary approaches into the Marian Apparitions
syndrome.

 From the social and human sciences to the clinical,
physiological, and q.b. physical or hard disciplines, I am
getting interesting feedback from our scientific community,
started by our last book 'Fatima Behind The Secret', which was
published last June.

The study of this kind of transformative experience is been
supported by the CTEC Center for Transdisciplinary Studies on
Consciousness, based here at the University Fernando Pessoa, in
Porto, Portugal.

Our goals are to produce a pluralistic and comparative approach
looking for eventual links among other kind of the so-called
Extraordinary Human Experiences, i.e. Alien Abduction Scenarios,
OBEs, NDEs and the like. All the scientific literature, papers,
experimental works, people involved and so on, can also be
reported to us, as an important element of data to this global
project.

Thank you.



Joaquim Fernandes

CTEC
University Fernando Pessoa
Praca 9 de Abril, 349
4249-004 Porto
Portugal







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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:19:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:49:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:17:55 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >>Depends, of course, on the description and magnitude of the
 >>motion. As we have recently learned (if we didn't know already)
 >>the autokinetic effect is limited to small apparent motions,
 >>less than a degree. hence if the observer describes large angle
 >>motion (many degrees) we can assume it wasn't the aurokinetic
 >>effect (or the observer was seriously exaggerating the
 >>autokinetic effect). The impressive cases are the ones where the
 >>observer(s) says the light/object was first seen "here"
 >>(direction) and ;last seen "over there" (another direction) and
 >>the angle between the directions is many degrees.

Bruce, Kathy, List:

The problem is that very few witnesses have any idea what a
degree of arc is (roughly about the width of one's little finger
at arm's length). And it doesn't get much better later during
reconstruction, either. For instance, if one believes that a
distant light that would be exhibiting genuine autokinetic
motion, such as a bright star or planet, is actually a craft
several miles away, then that one degree swing becomes huge
motions in the mind of the witness.

 >However if some target object were to be described as within a
 >degree (or a few degrees) of some reference point, and at a
 >later time were to be described as within a degree (or a few
 >degrees) of some other, different reference pint, and the two
 >reference points were sufficiently many degrees apart, then one
 >could pretty conclusively rule out autokinetic effects as an
 >explanation in this case.

Yes, this is a good example. Provided that a possible star or
planet didn't move with the sky. I've had witnesses who reported
A-K motion as an object moved across the sky for hours, setting
behind trees in the same position as a bright star.

 >As far as Venus being misperceived as a silver disk goes,
 >there's another perhaps more powerful principle one can apply,
 >and that is the size/distance algorithm - which requires that
 >for an image of given angular diameter, perceived size and
 >distance must vary in a constant ratio. This rules out the
 >misperception of small, distant objects as large, close objects.
 >Consequently I'm highly skeptical of John Rimmer's proposition,
 >that misperceptions of Venus could provide an explanation in
 >close encounter cases - I guess it would depend, though, on how
 >close was the encounter.

Or how close the witness thought the encounter was. It is
possible for some witnesses who have their wits about them to
analyze what they are seeing, these are the ones never reported
as UFOs to begin with.

Incidentally, Cathy, is the up to one degree movement from the
assumed actual center point or the total apparent motion?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:52:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:01:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Gates


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:59:30 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:04:39 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:03:42 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -500
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Hutchinson

 >>Flight #4 is a convenient modern-day scapegoat for the Roswell
 >>crash because there is _no data_ on it to tell us exactly how
 >>it was configured when it was launched, what direction it
 >>headed, how long it was airborne, how high it got, or where it
 >>ended up.

 >But there is far more information about Flight #4 than exists
 >for an "Alien Disk". Unlike many Roswell issues, there is some
 >documentation. Like Flight #4 did take off on June 4. They also
 >know that Rawins were part of the load transported to Alamogordo
 >(now why did they take those along?). Radar tracking was
 >abandoned early on- as a result of the initial flights. They
 >know that they used neoprene balloons. They have meteorological
 >data that can be used not only to predict the probable flight
 >path of #4, but also to verify the assumptions used by comparing
 >computer simulations against actual recorded flights.

 >All of this can be used to verify several 40 year old memories-
 >the same kind of memories that proponents have to depend upon.
 >But, unlike the memories of "memory foil", these memories can be
 >verified with the written record.

As I have pointed out. No matter what Mogulites claim, say, or
do, they still have to rely upon memories, assumptions and
unproven theories to create a theory that is _still_ 17 miles
short.

The Mogulites on the List are in essence telling us that
memories, assumptions, un proven theories and data sets created
by one "expert" and not peer reviewed or examined are all ok.
Apparently as long as they are skeptical. Any theory based upon
the above set of assumptions and data that puts an a balloon
within 17 miles of the Foster Ranch should be regarded as valid
no matter what.

Naturally the Mogulites can't directly admit to the above
because then they sound totally bias and are only willing to
look at sets of facts that tickles their ears.

Love them Mogulites!!!! :)

Cheers,

Robert








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                      Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:48:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:03:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Randle


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:00:42 -0500
 >Subject: Foo Fighter Footnote

<snip>

 >Another correspondent around the same time frame noted that
 >Eisenhower was the head Army honcho in 1947 (or something of the
 >sort), yet the so-called MJ-12 briefing document addresses
 >Eisenhower as if he had never heard of the incident. How the
 >heck does that square with military procedure? Stan, Kevin,
 >anyone?

Dennis, List -

In July 1947, General of the Army (five stars) Dwight Eisenhower
was the Chief of Staff of the Army, which at that time was
broken into the Ground Forces and the Air Forces, each with a
commanding general. At the time these were General (four stars)
Jacob L. Devers and General (four stars) Carl Spaatz. In 1947,
the chain of command would have gone from Blanchard to Ramey to
General (four stars) George Kenny, commander of SAC, to Spaatz
to Eisenhower. To my way of thinking, and to my experience with
chain of command, there is no way to have by-passed Eisenhower.
He would have been told of the events in Roswell which makes the
1952 briefing irrelevant.

For those of you keeping score at home, Eisenhower would have
reported to Secretary of War Robert Patterson (the Secretary of
Defense wouldn't appear for a several weeks) and then to the
President.

Given the nature of the military, and given that the information
would have moved up the chain of command, there really is no
reason for Eisenhower not to have been told, unless the events
were of such insignificance that no one wanted to bother the
Chief of Staff with something that should have been handled at a
lower level.


KRandle








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:08:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:00 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>All too often alleged
 >>>multiple witness cases - like for example the much-vaunted
 >>>Trindade Island photo case - on examination turn out to be
 >>>single witness cases with reports of other witnesses. When
 >>>sought for these other witnesses turn out to be as elusive as
 >>>he UFOs themselves!

 >>Um... who was the sole witness to Trindade?

 >The photographer, Almiro Barauna

 >>What evidence have
 >>you that there was only one witness?

 >To quote from Magonia Supplement, No. 1, March 1998:

 >The Trinidade Island sighting of 16 January 1958 should provide
 >a good case for consideration by ETH proponents. Four reasonably
 >good photographs of a mysterious Saturn-shaped flying object
 >taken from the deck of the Brazilian Navy vessel Almirante
 >Saldanha and plenty of witnesses. Jerome Clark's verdict on it
 >is:

 >Given the number of witnesses, the results of photoanalyses both
 >military and civilian, and the need for debunkers to reinvent
 >the incident to explain it, it seems most unlikely that the
 >Trinidade photographs were hoaxed. (6)

 >Well, what are the agreed facts of this case? I was astonished
 >to discover, on re-examining the literature on this incident
 >that some of the most basic and presumably easily ascertainable
 >facts are very much in dispute. For example, how many witnesses
 >were there? Well, it depends on whether you are a believer or a
 >sceptic. And if you are a sceptic it depends whether you believe
 >the photographs were faked or that they are genuine and that
 >they portray an aircraft or some natural phenomenon. Dr Menzel
 >originally thought the photographs showed an aircraft flying
 >through cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

 >Believers conveniently fail to mention something about the
 >photographer that the sceptics gleefully emphasise: he was well
 >known for his trick photography. I wonder why?

 >Now we come to the really crazy bit. When we ask the obvious
 >question: How many witnesses were there? - what is the answer?
 >Again, it depends entirely on whether you are a believer or a
 >sceptic. According to Coral Lorenzen: Rio de Janeiro's Ultima
 >Hora on February 21 reported that at least a hundred individuals
 >had witnessed the sighting of the object . . . (7) The US Naval
 >Attache in Rio de Janeiro, evidently a dedicated sceptic, wrote
 >in his report to Project Blue Book:

 >The Assistant Naval Attache... had an opportunity to visit
 >aboard [the Almirante Saldanha]. The commanding officer... had
 >not seen the object and was noncommittal. The executive officer
 >also had not seen it but, arriving shortly thereafter, had
 >formed the opinion that those on deck had seen it. The captain
 >reported that his secretary, a LCDR, had seen it but this
 >officer when personally questioned avoided discussing the
 >matter. (8)

The above comments are hardly convincing evidence that there
were no witnesses (other than Baruna). The comment by the Ass't
Naval Attache does, in fact, mention another witness, even if
the witness wouldn't talk directly to the Naval Attache. That
witness, the secretary, must have told the captain, (otherwise
how would the captain know?). If there were no witnesses other
than Baruna then we must assume that either the captain was
lying about testimony of the secretary or else the secretary
lied to the captain about being a witness. I find these
arguments about lying to be unacceptable and conclude that there
was at least one other admitted witness.

The executive officer "formed the opinion" that thpose on deck
had seen it.

Hmmmm... wonder how he formed that opinion. He walked on deck
and saw people looking in the sky? He heard people talking about
it? He talked to people and asked them what he had seen? Well,
this all seems reasonable to me. If I walked onto the deck and
heard people talking about a strange thing that they saw in the
sky I would assume they actually saw a strange thing in the sky.
Hardly evidence that there were no witnesses other than Baruna.

 >Sceptics insist that there were no witnesses, despite assertions
 >from believers that their testimonies were published in
 >Brazilian newspapers. If there really were many witnesses, then
 >the photographs are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no
 >witnesses, it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by
 >a photographer who purported to take pictures of something which
 >nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

True. But., how does all this nice reasoning point toward no
witnesses other than Baruna? If Baruna had hoaxed the whole
thing, a la Menzel (who never met an explanation he didn't
like), why would he think he could get away with claiming there
were dozens of other witnesses on deck at the time? Any one of
these purported witnesses could have sunk Baruna's ship by
saying, "hey, I was on deck and I didn't see it, and I don't
know of anyone else who did." Baruna would have been much more
successful in his (hypothetical) hoax if he had said he was the
only person on deck at the time or that it moved so quickly he
didn't have time to alert others to look, etc.

The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
itself evidence that there were other witnesses.

 >(6) Jerome Clark, The UFO Book. Visible Ink, Detroit, 1998,
   p.212

 >(7) Coral Lorenzen, Flying Saucers. Signet, New York, 1966,
   p.168

 >(8) J A Hynek, The Hynek UFO Report. Sphere, London, p.248

-------------

 >To say the least, the question of multiple witnesses seems
 >ambiguous.

Only to the Klass-ic "dyed in the wool skeptic" (aka "debunker").

 >Even if reports were published in Brazilian
 >newspapers, were these direct quotes from interviews of the
 >witnesses by the reporters, or were they relayed through a third
 >or fourth party?

Hmmmmmm... if even only one of these people had been quoted in
the press as saying "I didn't see it and I don't know anyone on
deck who did" the skeptics would have had a field day claiming
this proves it was a hoax... and no skeptic would be asking
whether that was information relayed through a third or fourth
party. Double standard implied here?

 >Jerome Clark in his "UFO Encyclopedia" says "48
 >crew members and passengers" spotted an object approaching the
 >island, and quotes the photographer, Almiro Barauna, as naming a
 >number of people who pointed out an object to him. But we only
 >have Barauna's word for that, as nowhere do they appear to have
 >given their testimony directly to a third party.

Hmmmm... did any of these people say they didn't see it? This
sighting caused such a media flap in Brazil after the ship
returned that you would expect that these reputed witnesses
would have found out that Baruna was saying they were
witnesses... and they could have refuted him.

(Uh, oh, maybe Baruna was rich and bought off all the potential
witnesses... hmmmm... "any explanation is better than none"
[debunker's rule #1])

 >Later Clark says "a number of witnesses gave interviews to
 >newspapers", but the only quotation which is given is of a naval
 >official who says the object was not a meteorological ballon
 >because "the one we launched that day was released at 9 a.m. two
 >[sic] hours before the appearance of the object in the sky". So
 >this is not an interview with a witness, but simply an official
 >quoting from his department's log.

Neutral information regarding witnesses... but does inply that
the sighting was important enough for someone to check to see if
it could have been a balloon.

At least Baruna didn't hoax the sighting by photographing a
balloon... oops, unless he photographed the balloon when it
was launched and then said the sighting took place later on when
people were on deck... [debunker's rule #2: if the first
explanation seems weak or unsatisfying, try another]

but.... ooops, would he dare say that there were other people on
deck seeing the object at a time when there was actually nothing
in the sky? [corrollary to debunker's rule #2: if the second
explanation doesn't work... find a third]

 >Another quotation is from "a [unnamed] naval source" who told
 >the investigator Olave Fontes that the ship's radar had tracked
 >an unknown object the day before the photograph was taken, and a
 >surgeon at a Rio hospital whose family had seen a "Saturn-
 >shaped" UFO off the coast in the direction of Trindade Island.
 >As Tridade is 600 miles off the coast of Brazil one wonders what
 >relevance it has to this case.

Interesting sightings on their own.

 >Later, a Brazilian reporter quotes another "unnamed source" as
 >reporting that instruments and transmitters on the island ceased
 >operating when the UFO was near.

Wonder if there are any records on this. But, of course, could
not be related to Baruna's faked photos. Must have been a
coincidence, right? (debunker's rule #3: if there appear to be
mutually corroborating sources of information, separate them and
offer an explanation for each individually)

 >So the "multiple witnesses" turn out to be the photographer,
 >some people whom the photographer says were there but are never
 >quoted directly,

.....and never contradict the photographer

 >someone at least six hundred miles away, a
 >couple of "unnamed sources" and some other unnamed people "who
 >gave interviews to newspapers", but of whom we know nothing else
 >- nor it seems have their interviews ever been published in the
 >UFO literature or translated into English.

This is, indeed, oversight in this case investigation.

 >So hardly the cast-iron, multiple-witness case as advertised!

And certainly not caste iron against the claim that there were
multiple witnesses. In fact, the weight of evidence is towarde
multiple witnesses.

 >And this, I am afraid is the pattern for other "multiple-
 >witness" cases. As I said - the witnesses are as elusive as the
 >UFOs.

Hmmmm... OK, folks out there... how many multiple witness cases
can we cite where the witnesses DID come forward? I have some
listed at my wenb site http://brumac.8k.com.

(For convenience limit yourself to 5 per respondent. After all,
it only takes one!).








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                        On the Subject of Death Rays

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:07:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:09:56 -0400
Subject: On the Subject of Death Rays


It has been suggested that ionised framous from the heavyside
layer, when charged by photons from the sun and bombarded by
clueless rays from the planet Mongo, produce the effect of
animal mutilation. These 'death rays' never touch humans, and
alwayes restrict themselves to certain body parts on the animule
.. animal.

Also, it has been suggested that red nitrogen and blue oxygen
(why's the sky brue daddy?) is the reason for UFO sightings.

We at the Gesundt Center of Atmospheric Studies, agree. The
gentle man who made these profoundly (and seemingly obserd)
remarkable remarks, is indeed a genie. Genius.

Our own findings suggest that not only is the ionised heavyside
sporadic E layer, the nitrogen, oxygen and sun charging all this
stuff make for a plausible reasoning process, but we would also
like to add another phenomenon, phenomena... whatever, to the
pie. That would be a mixture of Black, high flying Pelican guano
and Pelican gas. Here is where the gentle man and the Gesundt
Think Tank differ. Black Pelican guano mixed with Pelican farts,
also combine with the nitrogen and other atmospheric thingies to
form Fau UFO's. That would be FUFO.

The Canal Street sThink Tank agrees with this theory and, like
other researchers, believe that most believers should consider
changing their own underoos and flitting back to the Skeptical
side.

Oh, and one more thing. Autokinetics is also the main reason for
UFO reports, those which are seen as moving lights in the sky.
And no matter what that dimbulb, Mac Abee ... Macc... whatever,
says, autokinetics is responsible for moving lights, the common
cold and bad batches of the Gripp.

May God have mercy on the souls of those who are fermenting, uh,
fomenting, such drivel on the sanity of human kind. When some
people open their mouths, the sum total of human knowledge is
detracted from.


We remain prone,

Docca Morty
  for the Canal Street People








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                  Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:17:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:25:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:19:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:17:55 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 ><snip>

 >>>Depends, of course, on the description and magnitude of the
 >>>motion. As we have recently learned (if we didn't know already)
 >>>the autokinetic effect is limited to small apparent motions,
 >>>less than a degree. hence if the observer describes large angle
 >>>motion (many degrees) we can assume it wasn't the aurokinetic
 >>>effect (or the observer was seriously exaggerating the
 >>>autokinetic effect). The impressive cases are the ones where the
 >>>observer(s) says the light/object was first seen "here"
 >>>(direction) and ;last seen "over there" (another direction) and
 >>>the angle between the directions is many degrees.

 >Bruce, Kathy, List:

 >The problem is that very few witnesses have any idea what a
 >degree of arc is (roughly about the width of one's little finger
 >at arm's length). And it doesn't get much better later during
 >reconstruction, either. For instance, if one believes that a
 >distant light that would be exhibiting genuine autokinetic
 >motion, such as a bright star or planet, is actually a craft
 >several miles away, then that one degree swing becomes huge
 >motions in the mind of the witness.

 >>However if some target object were to be described as within a
 >>degree (or a few degrees) of some reference point, and at a
 >>later time were to be described as within a degree (or a few
 >>degrees) of some other, different reference pint, and the two
 >>reference points were sufficiently many degrees apart, then one
 >>could pretty conclusively rule out autokinetic effects as an
 >>explanation in this case.

 >Yes, this is a good example. Provided that a possible star or
 >planet didn't move with the sky. I've had witnesses who reported
 >A-K motion as an object moved across the sky for hours, setting
 >behind trees in the same position as a bright star.

 >>As far as Venus being misperceived as a silver disk goes,
 >>there's another perhaps more powerful principle one can apply,
 >>and that is the size/distance algorithm - which requires that
 >>for an image of given angular diameter, perceived size and
 >>distance must vary in a constant ratio. This rules out the
 >>misperception of small, distant objects as large, close objects.
 >>Consequently I'm highly skeptical of John Rimmer's proposition,
 >>that misperceptions of Venus could provide an explanation in
 >>close encounter cases - I guess it would depend, though, on how
 >>close was the encounter.

 >Or how close the witness thought the encounter was. It is
 >possible for some witnesses who have their wits about them to
 >analyze what they are seeing, these are the ones never reported
 >as UFOs to begin with.

 >Incidentally, Cathy, is the up to one degree movement from the
 >assumed actual center point or the total apparent motion

Dear Young Bob, List and Errol,

Bob, you are hopeless. The fact that I happen to love you has
nothing to do with your obtuse, irrelevant and subtly ridiculous
notions on what constitoots a sighting.

May the Good Lord bless you with some sightings of your own.
Should that happen (it never does, people who are as hopeless as
Young Bob never look up for fear of seeing something), should it
happen to you, Bob, please, call me collect. I can hook you up
with a great researcher to be regressed. And, I have a good
prescription for antidepressants.

Love,

Jim





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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:28:17 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:56:23 +0100
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >Perhaps now it will be explained, as requested more than once,
 >why that astounding evidence - bearing in mind it relates to one
 >of the most significant 'UFO' incidents - was not publicised by
 >Barry and all who were aware of it.

Barry Greenwood suppress evidence, pro OR con? _That_ claim I'm
skeptical of.

==JJS==

Jim Speiser
Glendale, AZ







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                  Re: MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:39:16 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:52:54 -0400
Subject: Re: MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 06:53:03 +0200
 >Subject: MUFON's 33rd Annual International UFO Symposium


 >Source: RNews, Rochester, New York,

 >http://www.rnews.com/Story.cfm?ID=5568&rnews_story_type=18

 >Stig

 >***

 >Saturday, July 6, 2002

 >Thinking About UFOs

 >by Cristina Domingues

 >photo by Josh Morrell

 >***

 >Today is the first day of the 33rd annual International UFO
 >Symposium in downtown Rochester.

 >Hundreds of members of the Mutual UFO Network, MUFON, are coming
 >to talk about their latest discoveries or experiences with UFOs
 >or extra terrestrials.

 >Friday, they held a workshop on how to interview people who
 >believe they've seen a UFO.

I did not make it for the workshop but sat next to Dan Wright
for the Friday night dinner.  The local RN Rochester News
televised the interview with Dan about every half hour.  Good
publicity.

I would say there were a few hundred in attendance, but not as
many as the number for the 2001 Symposium in Orange County
California.

I attended about half of the lectures given.  When it came to
giving my lecture we had moved from the hotel to the convention
center across the street.  The A/V guys were great when it came
to moving equipment.

Betty Hill was delightful as always, but has some restrictive
ideas on who really has experienced abduction.  She recounted
her own and said she was raised in believing there was life on
other worlds and that civilization had come and gone several
times in history and she expressed her belief in periodic
catastrophes.

Bill Birnes gave a surprisingly strong presentation on why he
believed Corso and is writing a book called "The Day After
Corso".  He is also working on another UFO Encyclopedia project.

Chris Styles gave an interesting presentation on Canadian
encounters and included updates on Shagg Harbor.  I missed Don
Ledger's presentation as I skipped out for a while and visited
Niagara Falls with friends.

The last speaker was not in the web-posted schedule and was a
young woman with long beautiful hair who hailed from Instanbul
and showed some of the best footage I have seen of a black
triangle.  You could easily discern the form and lights on the
triangle.  It was typical.

Richard Dolan gave a surprising presentation from the
perspective of his historical research into UFOs and the
National Security State saying that he did not necessarily think
that unity with science was such a hot idea and had some
shortcomings.  He also came off with another surprise - his pet
theory that UFOs may represent machine intelligence.  I think he
has been talking to one too many crazy computer scientists.  He
is a very articulate speaker.

Budd Hopkins reported that he was working on a new case and also
had two new witnesses to the Linda Cortile case that he felt
added significant testimony that reveals new information about
the cavalcade of limos on that night.

There were other luminaries present other than the speakers.
  Dr. Bob Wood was there and Larry Bryant as well as skepti-
debunker Joe Nickell who was listening with rapt attention when
Betty Hill gave her presentation.

All in all, I think it was a successful event and MUFON is
already looking ahead to their next annual symposium in
Michigan.  The folks from MUFON Michigan were there in numbers.

-Bill Hamilton







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                       CCCRN News: Circles in PEI & NB

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:46:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:54:59 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Circles in PEI & NB


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 9, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002


CIRCLES IN PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND AND NEW BRUNSWICK

Report of several circles in a wheat field, up to 6 metres (20
feet) diameter, at Grand River, Prince Edward Island. Eyewitness
described 'funnels' creating the circles on July 5 (or possibly
July 4), during thunderstorms, which are rare in that part of
the country. Later reported in the Canadian Press news service
on July 7:

http://canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=3D354DE533-A054-4DCF-8DD0-7C7B899=
68455

Others reportedly found in the nearby province of New Brunswick
as well, further details pending for both cases and what the
similarities are if any to the formations typically found in the
prairies (these are being described as 'flattened circles'). A
comparison study between these apparently weather-related
circles and others would be interesting and useful. Thanks also
to Andreas Muller for his assistance.


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August / September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:

psa@look.ca


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002







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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:56:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:57:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:00 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


John and Bruce,

 >>The Trinidade Island sighting of 16 January 1958 should provide
 >>a good case for consideration by ETH proponents. Four reasonably
 >>good photographs of a mysterious Saturn-shaped flying object
 >>taken from the deck of the Brazilian Navy vessel Almirante
 >>Saldanha and plenty of witnesses. Jerome Clark's verdict on it
 >>is:

 >>Given the number of witnesses, the results of photoanalyses both
 >>military and civilian, and the need for debunkers to reinvent
 >>the incident to explain it, it seems most unlikely that the
 >>Trinidade photographs were hoaxed. (6)

Sounds reasonable to me.

 >>Well, what are the agreed facts of this case? I was astonished
 >>to discover, on re-examining the literature on this incident
 >>that some of the most basic and presumably easily ascertainable
 >>facts are very much in dispute. For example, how many witnesses
 >>were there? Well, it depends on whether you are a believer or a
 >>sceptic. And if you are a sceptic it depends whether you believe
 >>the photographs were faked or that they are genuine and that
 >>they portray an aircraft or some natural phenomenon. Dr Menzel
 >>originally thought the photographs showed an aircraft flying
 >>through cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

Not being a "believer," I think I'm qualified to comment here.

 >>Believers conveniently fail to mention something about the
 >>photographer that the sceptics gleefully emphasise: he was well
 >>known for his trick photography. I wonder why?

Not being one of those hated "believers," I mentioned this very
matter on page 902 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed. It turns out
that the charge that Barauna "has a long history of photographic
trick shots" is an unsupported charge made by a Blue Book
spokesman. Naturally, being pelicanists, the Magonians hastened
to fly with this one without further question.

Blue Book's charge was made on the basis of a single humorous
magazine article, in which Barauna debunked a famous Brazilian
flying-saucer photo. The piece is titled "A Flying Saucer Hunted
Me at Home." The "long history of photographic trick shots"
seems to be a Blue Book invention. But of course if a debunker
said it, it must be true. Note how Magonia's vaunted skepticism
suddenly fails it here.

 >>Sceptics insist that there were no witnesses, despite assertions
 >>from believers that their testimonies were published in
 >>Brazilian newspapers. If there really were many witnesses, then
 >>the photographs are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no
 >>witnesses, it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by
 >>a photographer who purported to take pictures of something which
 >>nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

Not being a "believer," I probably am not qualified to comment
on a doctrinal dispute between two churches, but are we to
believe now that Brazilian newspapers did _not_ interview other
witnesses? Is there some evidence to that effect?

 >True. But., how does all this nice reasoning point toward no
 >witnesses other than Baruna? If Baruna had hoaxed the whole
 >thing, a la Menzel (who never met an explanation he didn't
 >like), why would he think he could get away with claiming there
 >were dozens of other witnesses on deck at the time? Any one of
 >these purported witnesses could have sunk Baruna's ship by
 >saying, "hey, I was on deck and I didn't see it, and I don't
 >know of anyone else who did." Baruna would have been much more
 >successful in his (hypothetical) hoax if he had said he was the
 >only person on deck at the time or that it moved so quickly he
 >didn't have time to alert others to look, etc.

 >The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >itself evidence that there were other witnesses.
 >Hmmmm... did any of these people say they didn't see it? This
 >sighting caused such a media flap in Brazil after the ship
 >returned that you would expect that these reputed witnesses
 >would have found out that Baruna was saying they were
 >witnesses... and they could have refuted him.

Simple fact of the matter is that after all these years, not a
single witness has stepped forward to contradict Barauna's
testimony. Remarkable when one considers that anyone who did so
could probably claim a nice financial reward from a paper or TV
outlet looking for ratings by deep-sixing what is surely the
most celebrated of all Brazilian UFO cases, and one of the most
famous (and most often reproduced) photos of an ostensible UFO.

It is also, of course, startling that the Brazilian Navy was
unable to disprove the case easily, simply by debunking the
claim that there were other witnesses. The Brazilian Navy,
however, said no such thing. Its investigation left it puzzled.
It could only say that it could not identify the object in the
photograph. It did not deny that a sighting had occurred or that
something strange had been photographed in the course of that
sighting - though Menzel fiddled with the translation from
Portuguese into English to make it appear, falsely, that this
was the case.

It should have been child's play to disprove a sighting with
photographs if the photographer had falsely claimed the passage
of a huge unknown and the presence of other witnesses. All those
other claimed "witnesses" allegedly on deck would have had to do
was tell investigators that they had been there and seen
nothing. And why would Barauna have risked being debunked by
claiming witnesses who could easily have devastatingly
undermined his testimony? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do
it alone or in the company of one or two trusted associates,
away from prying eyes and contrary testimony?

If the Brazilian Navy was fooled by such a simply disposed-of
hoax - one that would have collapsed after a few questions asked
of the right people - I worry for the national security of
Brazil.

Of course, we here in North America and - even worse - England
are far from the events in question. Perhaps Brazilian members
of the list can weigh in here with whatever potentially
illuminating information they may have that is not available to
the rest of us. In the meantime, it strikes me that the
Magonians, as usual, are rushing to a conclusion of convenience.


Jerry Clark







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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:16:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:47:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:31:56 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:08:04 -0700

 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:09:09 -0700

 >>>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:03 -0700
 >>>>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >><snip>

 >>>Has _anyone_ been to the actual spot, and taken GPS readings of
 >>>Longitude/Latitude .. or gotten enough data that I can compute
 >>>it from some accessible landmark? How about distance and
 >>>direction, as the crow flies, from Heber or other nearby places?

[snip]

 >Dear Jim and Larry,

 >First off let me say, up front, that based upon the evidence I
 >believe the case to be real/legitimate.

 >Was Mike planning to go back to where the incident took place? I
 >would imagine that Mike will find an entire forest of blackened,
 >burned trunks sticking out of the ground and perhaps, fallen
 >trees, over roads. Is the Forest Service going to open any of
 >that area up any time soon?

 >Now for the 'stupid' question...

 >I don't understand why are we worried about contamination at
 >this point. The incident took place 27 years ago. Most, if not
 >all, the evidence would be "contaminated" - not to mention any
 >'evidence' that may have been left, say, in the the trees, or
 >whatever, is now history.

[snip]

 >>Turkey Springs is about 9 miles due south of Heber, and
 >>just a little west. It is right on the edge of the Mogollon
 >>Rim. It is fairly easy to locate if you have a USGS topo map or
 >>other map showing local geographical names. That is about the
 >>best resolution I can give you at this point.

 >If Larry wants I can send him a .bmp or .jpg of the map
 >showing that specific area.



Hello Robert:

If you could, please send a .jpg of the Turkey Springs area, but
not a .bmp file as those are 20-50 times larger for the same
image!

Hopefully it will have long-lat lines across the image, and on
either side of the the T.S. spot, and properly _numbered_ so I
can interpolate some reasonably inaccurate coordinates instead
of just guessing.  Simple topo maps without these mini-
  meridians etc. have proven useless in the past, believe me I
have tried that.

Again, I'm not looking for GPS-type accuracy, (the exact spot
within yards). I can only resolve down to 20 seconds of long/lat
in my database.


Best

- Larry








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:39:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:48:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >itself evidence that there were other witnesses. >>

Doctor Maccabee:

This is perhaps the finest piece of circular reasoning that I
have ever seen exhibited by a Ufologist.

If there were no other witnesse he could not have been
contradicted.


Clear skies,

Bob Young


"It appears that most current UFO investigations are carried out
at a level of rigor that is not consistent with prevailing
standards of scientific research."
                          --The P. A. Sturrock Panel, 1997








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:04:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:50:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:19:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >The problem is that very few witnesses have any idea what a
 >degree of arc is (roughly about the width of one's little finger
 >at arm's length). And it doesn't get much better later during
 >reconstruction, either. For instance, if one believes that a
 >distant light that would be exhibiting genuine autokinetic
 >motion, such as a bright star or planet, is actually a craft
 >several miles away, then that one degree swing becomes huge
 >motions in the mind of the witness.

This is true, but the size/distance algorithm still applies -
one can't perceive such large magnitude oscillations unless the
target object is perceived to be at a great distance, and this
combination of attributes makes it clear that the angular
diameter of the oscillations is actually quite small.

 >Yes, this is a good example. Provided that a possible star or
 >planet didn't move with the sky. I've had witnesses who reported
 >A-K motion as an object moved across the sky for hours, setting
 >behind trees in the same position as a bright star.

Yes, the Arthur Shuttlewood example I cited earlier was like
that. I don't want to seem pedantic, but that isn't autokinesis.
The movement of astronomical objects across the sky is
potentially quite capable of generating UFO reports by itself,
not least because many people don't realize how quickly stars
and planets can appear to move when they're close to the
horizon.

But that doesn't change the fact that autokinesis doesn't
produce large changes of position with respect to fixed
reference points. The rotation of the earth can, but only in
ways that should be predictable to any investigator, and only
with respect to reference points on the horizon - astronomical
reference points all move together (at least, for all practical
purposes, within the course of a single night).

 >Or how close the witness thought the encounter was. It is
 >possible for some witnesses who have their wits about them to
 >analyze what they are seeing, these are the ones never reported
 >as UFOs to begin with.

Well, what is the psychological mechanism you're proposing to
account for the mismatch between how close the encounter was and
how close the witness thought it was? I'm only saying that the
visual system doesn't provide such a mechanism.

 >Incidentally, Cathy, is the up to one degree movement from the
 >assumed actual center point or the total apparent motion?

Neither - I've tried to emphasize that the one degree criterion
isn't engraved in stone. It's just that the classic autokinetic
effect, involving apparent movements of many degrees of
displacement, is specifically a laboratory phenomenon which is
caused by a complete absence of fixed reference points.

So the magnitude of the effect is dependent on the number and
distribution of fixed reference points. In practice, under
realistic night-time conditions, one can expect a two-
dimensional random oscillation within an area about the size of
the full moon. But this is a rough heuristic, not an absolute
guide.


Cathy








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   Jul > Jul 9

                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:04:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:24:38 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hall


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:56:23 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>Perhaps now it will be explained, as requested more than once,
 >>why that astounding evidence - bearing in mind it relates to one
 >>of the most significant 'UFO' incidents - was not publicised by
 >>Barry and all who were aware of it.

 >Barry Greenwood suppress evidence, pro OR con? _That_ claim I'm
 >skeptical of.

 >==JJS==

 >Jim Speiser
 >Glendale, AZ

Jim,

That's just typical Easton glib oversimplification and inability
to comprehend human complexities. Just as Jan pointed out,
Easton (the exact time interval is irrelevant) quickly concluded
from reading the same documents that we had read, that important
"negative" (to him, alone) evidence was not being reported
(i.e., suppressed) and that everyone should immediately see the
"evidence" (to him, alone) that the lighthouse could explain
many/most sightings, an absurdity not worth furher comment.

The simpler, human, truth of the situation eludes him to this
day. I won't bother to try to explain it to him because I
consider him a hopeless cause. Partly, it involves busy
researchers who never quite pulled together and analyzed all the
information they had, and witnesses fearful for their
reputations and holding back on what they told their superiors.

Rendlesham Forest remains a very strong case indicative of
unidentified craftlike objects in our skies and on the ground,
and also illustrates something the psychosocials cannot
comprehend either: the potency of the ridicule factor, which
they help to potentiate by their skeptibunking.


  - Dick








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   Jul > Jul 9

                     Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:42:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:27:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hall


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:39:55 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >>witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >>itself evidence that there were other witnesses. >>

 >Doctor Maccabee:

 >This is perhaps the finest piece of circular reasoning that I
 >have ever seen exhibited by a Ufologist.

 >If there were no other witnesse he could not have been
 >contradicted.


And this is about the silliest argument I have ever seen
advanced even by a noted skeptibunker.

In the first place, as others have pointed out, there were
numerous crew members and scientists on deck who obviously saw
the UFO; their names are on record.

Also, without having the time to personally check this I am
morally certain that other witnesses have been quoted on having
seen the UFO and observed the developing of the film. Even if I
am wrong about this, however, the argument by Maccabee and Clark
that no one has come forth to contradict Barauna remains a very
strong argument. The dozens of people on deck would not,
conceivably, have allowed themselves to be complicit in a hoax.

  - Dick








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   Jul > Jul 9

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:24:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:29:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:56:11 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >John and Bruce,

 >>>The Trinidade Island sighting of 16 January 1958 should provide
 >>>a good case for consideration by ETH proponents. Four reasonably
 >>>good photographs of a mysterious Saturn-shaped flying object
 >>>taken from the deck of the Brazilian Navy vessel Almirante
 >>>Saldanha and plenty of witnesses. Jerome Clark's verdict on it
 >>>is:

 >>>Given the number of witnesses, the results of photoanalyses both
 >>>military and civilian, and the need for debunkers to reinvent
 >>>the incident to explain it, it seems most unlikely that the
 >>>Trinidade photographs were hoaxed. (6)

 >Sounds reasonable to me.

I should hope so, it's a quote from your book!

 >>>Well, what are the agreed facts of this case? I was astonished
 >>>to discover, on re-examining the literature on this incident
 >>>that some of the most basic and presumably easily ascertainable
 >>>facts are very much in dispute. For example, how many witnesses
 >>>were there? Well, it depends on whether you are a believer or a
 >>>sceptic. And if you are a sceptic it depends whether you believe
 >>>the photographs were faked or that they are genuine and that
 >>>they portray an aircraft or some natural phenomenon. Dr Menzel
 >>>originally thought the photographs showed an aircraft flying
 >>>through cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

 >Not being a "believer," I think I'm qualified to comment here.

 >>>Believers conveniently fail to mention something about the
 >>>photographer that the sceptics gleefully emphasise: he was well
 >>>known for his trick photography. I wonder why?

 >Not being one of those hated "believers," I mentioned this very
 >matter on page 902 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed. It turns out
 >that the charge that Barauna "has a long history of photographic
 >trick shots" is an unsupported charge made by a Blue Book
 >spokesman. Naturally, being pelicanists, the Magonians hastened
 >to fly with this one without further question.

Not being a believer, you should read things more carefully. I
think both "believers" and "sceptics" are being ticked off in
that paragraph. Why else would John Harney (whose words they
are) use the phrases "conveniently fail to mention" and
"gleefully emphasise"; which suggest that both attitudes should
be taken with a pinch of salt. Textual analysis is so important
in this post-modern era.

 >Blue Book's charge was made on the basis of a single humorous
 >magazine article, in which Barauna debunked a famous Brazilian
 >flying-saucer photo. The piece is titled "A Flying Saucer Hunted
 >Me at Home." The "long history of photographic trick shots"
 >seems to be a Blue Book invention. But of course if a debunker
 >said it, it must be true. Note how Magonia's vaunted skepticism
 >suddenly fails it here.

Perhaps things might be clearer if we had any idea of what
Barauma's humorous article actually said. At the very least it
suggests that he had more than a passing interest in UFO
photographs before the Trindade incident, and made up stories,
humorous or otherwise, about them.

 >>>Sceptics insist that there were no witnesses, despite assertions
 >>>from believers that their testimonies were published in
 >>>Brazilian newspapers. If there really were many witnesses, then
 >>>the photographs are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no
 >>>witnesses, it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by
 >>>a photographer who purported to take pictures of something which
 >>>nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

 >Not being a "believer," I probably am not qualified to comment
 >on a doctrinal dispute between two churches, but are we to
 >believe now that Brazilian newspapers did _not_ interview other
 >witnesses? Is there some evidence to that effect?

We don't know, do we, because, although this is considered an
imporatnt, "multiple witness" case which has been written about
and discussed in many UFO books - including several of Jerome's
- we do not seem to have had a single one of these reports
translated into English

<Some stuff clipped which I reply to in my response to Bruce
  Maccabee's post>

 >Simple fact of the matter is that after all these years, not a
 >single witness has stepped forward to contradict Barauna's
 >testimony. Remarkable when one considers that anyone who did so
 >could probably claim a nice financial reward from a paper or TV
 >outlet looking for ratings by deep-sixing

(Obscure colonial reference which is baffling to us in the Mother
Country. Is it the opposite of a "High Five" - whatever that may be)

 >what is surely the
 >most celebrated of all Brazilian UFO cases, and one of the most
 >famous (and most often reproduced) photos of an ostensible UFO.

Since when did UFO stories give witnesses or non-witnesses a
nice financial reward? And, as I comment above, surprising that
one of the most famous photographic cases does not seem to have
produced a single direct quotation, worthy of being translated
into English, from any of the multiplicity of alleged witnesses.

 >It is also, of course, startling that the Brazilian Navy was
 >unable to disprove the case easily, simply by debunking the
 >claim that there were other witnesses. The Brazilian Navy,
 >however, said no such thing. Its investigation left it puzzled.

How thorough was the Navy's investigation? Did they interview
any of the other alleged witnesses. Are there transcripts or
summaries of their accounts in the report compiled by Corvette-
Commander (what is the equivalent level of this rank in the USN
or the Royal Navy) Brandao?

He says: "the existence of personal reports and of photographic
evidence, of certain value considering the circumstance involved
[absence of evidence of tampering, the presence of other
witnesses], permit the admission that there are indications of
unidentified aerial objects". A fairly carefully worded
conclusion that is unlikely to blow up in anybody's face. Are
the other witnesses named? The reference is to APRO Bulletin
January 1965, which does not appear to be in the library at
Magonia Towers.

I'm also interested as to where the editorial insertion in
square brackets come from (The above is quoted from The UFO
Encyclopedia which is in turn quoting APRO Bulletin).

 >It could only say that it could not identify the object in the
 >photograph. It did not deny that a sighting had occurred or that
 >something strange had been photographed in the course of that
 >sighting - though Menzel fiddled with the translation from
 >Portuguese into English to make it appear, falsely, that this
 >was the case.

The two translations are given side by side in Jerry's UFO
Encyclopedia. Menzel's version is careless, but I do not think
it bears the weight of conspiracy that Jerry ascribes to it.

 >It should have been child's play to disprove a sighting with
 >photographs if the photographer had falsely claimed the passage
 >of a huge unknown and the presence of other witnesses. All those
 >other claimed "witnesses" allegedly on deck would have had to do
 >was tell investigators that they had been there and seen
 >nothing. And why would Barauna have risked being debunked by
 >claiming witnesses who could easily have devastatingly
 >undermined his testimony? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do
 >it alone or in the company of one or two trusted associates,
 >away from prying eyes and contrary testimony?

But if there were no other witnesses, apart from any trusted
associates - maybe the dentist and the retired captain - who is
there to spill the beans?

 >If the Brazilian Navy was fooled by such a simply disposed-of
 >hoax - one that would have collapsed after a few questions asked
 >of the right people - I worry for the national security of
 >Brazil.

I don't think any government has a very good record of dealing
rationally with UFO reports. Too many vested interests to
placate. But we're all still here!

 >Of course, we here in North America and - even worse - England
 >are far from the events in question.

Does ones ability to understand a UFO case decrease
geometrically or logarithmically with ones distance from it?

 >Perhaps Brazilian members
 >of the list can weigh in here with whatever potentially
 >illuminating information they may have that is not available to
 >the rest of us.

I hope in particular that any Brazilian readers can provide us
with translations of the newspaper reports which hopefully give
direct quotations from named witnesses.

 >In the meantime, it strikes me that the
 >Magonians, as usual, are rushing to a conclusion of convenience.

I don't have any conclusion as to what the Trindade photgraph
might represent. If it's not a fake, I think there's a
possibility it might be some sort of geophysical phenomenon. All
I'm questioning is the assumption that there were 48 direct
witnesses of the event allegedly captured on camera. I see no
evidence for this other than the assertion of one person.


P.S. Where did that very precise "48" come from?
--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 9

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:32:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>The photographer, Almiro Barauna

 >>>What evidence have
 >>>you that there was only one witness?

 >>To quote from Magonia Supplement, No. 1, March 1998:

<Quote from Magonia Supplement clipped, but it's out on the Magonia
website somewhere.>

 >The above comments are hardly convincing evidence that there
 >were no witnesses (other than Baruna). The comment by the Ass't
 >Naval Attache does, in fact, mention another witness, even if
 >the witness wouldn't talk directly to the Naval Attache. That
 >witness, the secretary, must have told the captain, (otherwise
 >how would the captain know?). If there were no witnesses other
 >than Baruna then we must assume that either the captain was
 >lying about testimony of the secretary or else the secretary
 >lied to the captain about being a witness. I find these
 >arguments about lying to be unacceptable and conclude that there
 >was at least one other admitted witness.

It is, of course possible that no-one was lying, but that the
Captain was mistaken or misunderstood a remark by a third party
that his secretary had seen the object. When directly asked
about it, the secretary avoided discussing the matter. Was this
because he did not wish to suggest that the captain was mistaken
or that the third party was lying? I don't know, nor does
anyone, but his unwillingness to discuss the matter even with a
senior naval attache suggests that the situation may be a little
more complicated that Bruce Maccabee makes out.

 >The executive officer "formed the opinion" that thpose on deck
 >had seen it.

 >Hmmmm... wonder how he formed that opinion. He walked on deck
 >and saw people looking in the sky?

I don't know. Maybe there was just so much talk about it going
around, and it seemed such a noteworth event, that he just
assumed - "formed the opinion" - that anyone on deck at the time
must have seen it.

 >He heard people talking about
 >it? He talked to people and asked them what he had seen? Well,
 >this all seems reasonable to me. If I walked onto the deck and
 >heard people talking about a strange thing that they saw in the
 >sky I would assume they actually saw a strange thing in the sky.
 >Hardly evidence that there were no witnesses other than Baruna.

But we don't know that do we? We have no indication that he
spoke directly to people, or interviewed any of the supposed
eyewitnesses.

 >>Sceptics insist that there were no witnesses, despite assertions
 >>from believers that their testimonies were published in
 >>Brazilian newspapers. If there really were many witnesses, then
 >>the photographs are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no
 >>witnesses, it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by
 >>a photographer who purported to take pictures of something which
 >>nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

 >True. But., how does all this nice reasoning point toward no
 >witnesses other than Baruna? If Baruna had hoaxed the whole
 >thing, a la Menzel (who never met an explanation he didn't
 >like), why would he think he could get away with claiming there
 >were dozens of other witnesses on deck at the time? Any one of
 >these purported witnesses could have sunk Baruna's ship by
 >saying, "hey, I was on deck and I didn't see it, and I don't
 >know of anyone else who did."

Indeed they could, but as we don't seem to have any direct
quotations from putative witnesses about what they did or didn't
see, we're none the wiser.

 >Baruna would have been much more
 >successful in his (hypothetical) hoax if he had said he was the
 >only person on deck at the time or that it moved so quickly he
 >didn't have time to alert others to look, etc.
 >The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >itself evidence that there were other witnesses.

So simply the claim that there were other witnesses must be
taken as evidence that there were other witnesses? This is
exactly the point I was making:

 >To say the least, the question of multiple witnesses seems
 >ambiguous.

 >Only to the Klass-ic "dyed in the wool skeptic" (aka "debunker").

Of course, by using the words "Klass" and "debunker" as generalised
terms of abuse, it avoids you having to do any thinking about the
questions they pose.
 >
 >>Even if reports were published in Brazilian
 >>newspapers, were these direct quotes from interviews of the
 >>witnesses by the reporters, or were they relayed through a third
 >>or fourth party?
 >
 >Hmmmmmm... if even only one of these people had been quoted in
 >the press as saying "I didn't see it and I don't know anyone on
 >deck who did" the skeptics would have had a field day claiming
 >this proves it was a hoax... and no skeptic would be asking
 >whether that was information relayed through a third or fourth
 >party. Double standard implied here?

This sceptic would still like to know if such a quote came
directly from the witness, or throuigh some other source.

 >>Jerome Clark in his "UFO Encyclopedia" says "48
 >>crew members and passengers" spotted an object approaching the
 >>island, and quotes the photographer, Almiro Barauna, as naming a
 >>number of people who pointed out an object to him. But we only
 >>have Barauna's word for that, as nowhere do they appear to have
 >>given their testimony directly to a third party.

 >Hmmmm... did any of these people say they didn't see it? This
 >sighting caused such a media flap in Brazil after the ship
 >returned that you would expect that these reputed witnesses
 >would have found out that Baruna was saying they were
 >witnesses... and they could have refuted him.

But if there were no witnesses how could any of them have made a
statement to that effect? Anybody who was on the ship at the
time and didn't see anything would just have assumed that they
were unlucky, and that someone else had seen it.

 >(Uh, oh, maybe Baruna was rich and bought off all the potential
 >witnesses... hmmmm... "any explanation is better than none"
 >[debunker's rule #1])

And any mystery is better than an explanation - believers' rule
#1 - and #2, #3, etc.....

 >>Later Clark says "a number of witnesses gave interviews to
 >>newspapers", but the only quotation which is given is of a naval
 >>official who says the object was not a meteorological ballon
 >>because "the one we launched that day was released at 9 a.m. two
 >>[sic] hours before the appearance of the object in the sky". So
 >>this is not an interview with a witness, but simply an official
 >>quoting from his department's log.
 >
 >Neutral information regarding witnesses... but does inply that
 >the sighting was important enough for someone to check to see if
 >it could have been a balloon.

What is an important sighting. I suggest one which interested
the President of Brazil would be important enough to get a naval
officer to look through his log-book. Still doesn't mean it was
"real" [pace, Colin Bennett] though. Any claims - founded or
unfounded - about unidentified objects buzzing around naval
ships are going to interest the authorities.

 >At least Baruna didn't hoax the sighting by photographing a
 >balloon... oops, unless he photographed the balloon when it
 >was launched and then said the sighting took place later on when
 >people were on deck... [debunker's rule #2: if the first
 >explanation seems weak or unsatisfying, try another]

If it was a hoax, that might be a plausible way of doing it.

 >but.... ooops, would he dare say that there were other people on
 >deck seeing the object at a time when there was actually nothing
 >in the sky? [corrollary to debunker's rule #2: if the second
 >explanation doesn't work... find a third]

The only named people who saw objects whilst on the deck
(although not necessarily the object which Barauna photographed,
his account is a little ambiguous) were retired Air Force
Captain Vieira and the ship's dentist Ribiero. One would expect
their direct testimony to be prominant in the reporting of this
case, but as far as I can see, not a word from them is recorded.
I agree it's unlikely that Barauna would mention two named
witnesses if his story was a lie, but it's equally odd that such
important witness seem to have passed by without a word. Barauna
was "grilled by high ranking officers". Were they?

 >>Another quotation is from "a [unnamed] naval source" who told
 >>the investigator Olave Fontes that the ship's radar had tracked
 >>an unknown object the day before the photograph was taken, and a
 >>surgeon at a Rio hospital whose family had seen a "Saturn-
 >>shaped" UFO off the coast in the direction of Trindade Island.
 >>As Tridade is 600 miles off the coast of Brazil one wonders what
 >>relevance it has to this case.

 >Interesting sightings on their own.

Maybe, but not relevant, and certainly not admissable as
witnesses to the Trindade events.

 >>Later, a Brazilian reporter quotes another "unnamed source" as
 >>reporting that instruments and transmitters on the island ceased
 >>operating when the UFO was near.

 >Wonder if there are any records on this. But, of course, could
 >not be related to Baruna's faked photos. Must have been a
 >coincidence, right? (debunker's rule #3: if there appear to be
 >mutually corroborating sources of information, separate them and
 >offer an explanation for each individually)

If there are any such records about such events they certainly
would be very relevant to the Trindade events. They might point
towards, for instance, a geophysical source for the phenomenon.

 >>So the "multiple witnesses" turn out to be the photographer,
 >>some people whom the photographer says were there but are never
 >>quoted directly,

 >.....and never contradict the photographer

If they don't exist, they're hardly in a position to.

 >>someone at least six hundred miles away, a
 >>couple of "unnamed sources" and some other unnamed people "who
 >>gave interviews to newspapers", but of whom we know nothing else
 >>- nor it seems have their interviews ever been published in the
 >>UFO literature or translated into English.

 >This is, indeed, oversight in this case investigation.

I'm glad we agree on something.

 >>So hardly the cast-iron, multiple-witness case as advertised!

 >And certainly not caste iron against the claim that there were
 >multiple witnesses. In fact, the weight of evidence is towarde
 >multiple witnesses.

Quoting the old saw that it's impossible to prove a negative, I
do not attempt to present cast-iron evidence for the absence of
witnesses. But there is precious little evidence to suggest that
there were. Basically just the word of Barauna.

 >>And this, I am afraid is the pattern for other "multiple-
 >>witness" cases. As I said - the witnesses are as elusive as the
 >>UFOs.

 >Hmmmm... OK, folks out there... how many multiple witness cases
 >can we cite where the witnesses DID come forward? I have some
 >listed at my wenb site http://brumac.8k.com.

I'll give it a try!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 9

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:22:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:09:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:42:30 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:39:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >>>witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >>>itself evidence that there were other witnesses. >>

 >>Doctor Maccabee:

 >>This is perhaps the finest piece of circular reasoning that I
 >>have ever seen exhibited by a Ufologist.

 >>If there were no other witnesse he could not have been
 >>contradicted.

 >And this is about the silliest argument I have ever seen
 >advanced even by a noted skeptibunker.

 >In the first place, as others have pointed out, there were
 >numerous crew members and scientists on deck who obviously saw
 >the UFO; their names are on record.

But Dick, Bruce doesn't need other witnesses, only the claim of
other witnesses, which he insists that he must accept at face
value.

 >Also, without having the time to personally check this I am
 >morally certain that other witnesses have been quoted on having
 >seen the UFO and observed the developing of the film.

Yikes, first Bruce says that nonexistent witnesses would
certainly have contradicted the story, then you proclaim moral
certitude, although you haven't actually checked.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:02:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:12:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:19:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:17:55 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates>Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >>>Depends, of course, on the description and magnitude of the
 >>>motion. As we have recently learned (if we didn't know already)
 >>>the autokinetic effect is limited to small apparent motions,
 >>>less than a degree. hence if the observer describes large angle
 >>>motion (many degrees) we can assume it wasn't the aurokinetic
 >>>effect (or the observer was seriously exaggerating the
 >>>autokinetic effect). The impressive cases are the ones where the
 >>>observer(s) says the light/object was first seen "here"
 >>>(direction) and ;last seen "over there" (another direction) and
 >>>the angle between the directions is many degrees.>


 >The problem is that very few witnesses have any idea what a
 >degree of arc is (roughly about the width of one's little finger
 >at arm's length). And it doesn't get much better later during
 >reconstruction, either. For instance, if one believes that a
 >distant light that would be exhibiting genuine autokinetic
 >motion, such as a bright star or planet, is actually a craft
 >several miles away, then that one degree swing becomes huge
 >motions in the mind of the witness.

Yes, and this would introduce uncertainty in the observation if
the direction to the unknown stayed constant to within 1 degree.
The interesting cases are when the motion is clearly many
degrees.

<snip>

 >Incidentally, Cathy, is the up to one degree movement from the
 >assumed actual center point or the total apparent motion?

Actually, I doubt that the typical saccade (jump) in direction
of the eye is anywhere near 1 degree. If saccadic motions were
as large as one degree it would appear to the observer that the
moon (1/2 degree in angular size) was jumping back and forth by
an amount greater than its own diameter. Although I have
detected saccadic motions of stars, I have never seen the moon
appear to jump sideways (or up and down) by any angular distance
that I can recall. Stars, of course, are point sources
(effectively) and the apparent size of a star, to your eye,
depends upon how bright it is.

Images of dimmer stars may be more likely to be affected by
saccadic motions on the order of 0.1 degree or less. susceptible
to saccadic motion








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                     Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:03:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:16:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Friedman


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:48:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Foo Fighter Footnote

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:00:42 -0500
 >>Subject: Foo Fighter Footnote

 ><snip>

 >>Another correspondent around the same time frame noted that
 >>Eisenhower was the head Army honcho in 1947 (or something of the
 >>sort), yet the so-called MJ-12 briefing document addresses
 >>Eisenhower as if he had never heard of the incident. How the
 >>heck does that square with military procedure? Stan, Kevin,
 >>anyone?

 >Dennis, List -

 >In July 1947, General of the Army (five stars) Dwight Eisenhower
 >was the Chief of Staff of the Army, which at that time was
 >broken into the Ground Forces and the Air Forces, each with a
 >commanding general. At the time these were General (four stars)
 >Jacob L. Devers and General (four stars) Carl Spaatz. In 1947,
 >the chain of command would have gone from Blanchard to Ramey to
 >General (four stars) George Kenny, commander of SAC, to Spaatz
 >to Eisenhower. To my way of thinking, and to my experience with
 >chain of command, there is no way to have by-passed Eisenhower.
 >He would have been told of the events in Roswell which makes the
 >1952 briefing irrelevant.

 >For those of you keeping score at home, Eisenhower would have
 >reported to Secretary of War Robert Patterson (the Secretary of
 >Defense wouldn't appear for a several weeks) and then to the
 >President.

 >Given the nature of the military, and given that the information
 >would have moved up the chain of command, there really is no
 >reason for Eisenhower not to have been told, unless the events
 >were of such insignificance that no one wanted to bother the
 >Chief of Staff with something that should have been handled at a
 >lower level.


I just got back from Roswell to 462 emails and happened to open
this one.

The question is not whther or not Ike had been aware of Roswell
when it happened. But, let's face it, within a year he was
President of Columbia University.

After a while he became head of allied Forces in Europe with the
tough job of trying to get fierce enemies who had just fought a
terrible war (like the English and French with their enemies
Germany and Italy) to work together on a continent that had been
very heavily damaged (remember the Marshall Plan). I cannot
imagine why Ike would have been informed of MJ-12 stuff once he
left for Columbia and then went to Europe. November 18, 1952 is
a long time after July 1947. He wasn't in the loop.

Remember that the briefing Officer, Hillenkoetter, had been in
the Navy. As much as anything else the Preliminary Briefing
would have been to get Ike to decide how and who would be
handling things for him re MJ-12. Five years is a long time,
especially since he had been out of the USA for a couple of
years.

Remember, too, that W.B. Smith had conducted 4 briefings on High
Security matters for Ike between Nov. 4, (The election) 1952,
and January 9, 1953, according to his letter to Truman which is
included in my 108 page 'Final Report on Operation Majestic
12'.

One can hardly expect that Ike during the five years would have
been on the distribution list for all kinds of intelligence work
not related to the military coordination difficulties he
certainly had to deal with and with the major concern about the
Russian Nuclear power (First explosion August 1949).

I saw NSC memos in the early 1950s in which it was stated that
the Soviets had made more progress in the previous 18 months
with regard to the development of nuclear weapons and systems to
deliver them, than had been expected in 5 years. I see no
problem at all with his being briefed about such a secret
group whose activities were unrelated to his previous jobs.

I will now look at other items in this thread.


Stan Friedman








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:10:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:18:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:39:55 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >>The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >>witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >>itself evidence that there were other witnesses.>>

 >Doctor Maccabee:

 >This is perhaps the finest piece of circular reasoning that I
 >have ever seen exhibited by a Ufologist.

 >If there were no other witnesse he could not have been
 >contradicted.

This is a prime example of poor reasoning If there were no other
witnesses, but he said there were and even named some, then one
would expect that the named witnesses, at least, would have
spoken up to say "I wasn't there." In other words, contrary to
your reasoning, he _would_ have been contradicted by the
witnesses who weren't there.








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:17:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:20:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >>The executive officer "formed the opinion" that thpose on deck
 >>had seen it.

 >>Hmmmm... wonder how he formed that opinion. He walked on deck
 >>and saw people looking in the sky?

 >I don't know. Maybe there was just so much talk about it going
 >around, and it seemed such a noteworth event, that he just
 >assumed - "formed the opinion" - that anyone on deck at the time
 >must have seen it.

That's an amusing thought. People on deck were talking about a
non event because Baruna really never saw a UFO but actually
hoaxed the picture. So obviously the people on deck didn't see
it... but they were talking about it anyway..... Hmmm... perhaps
this sighting was a mass delusion? Everyone thought they saw
what Baruna photographed? Of course, they wouldn't know what he
photographed until after his photos were developed.

That must be it!

They started talking about what they all had seen after they saw
Baruna's photo and the executive officer heard them talking
about how they all saw what Baruna photographed. (any
explanation is better than none)








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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Jones

From: Steve Jones <stvjns@gargoylemechanique.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:32:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:25:07 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Jones


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:52:03 -0500

 >>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:08:31 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 ><snip>

 >UFOs exist. I just don't think most people would know a real
 >UFO from a man-made one due to the amount of deception going on.

 >This is why I advocate being skeptical and very careful about
 >what you believe. Things are not as they seem.


Can we clarify what is meant by the term UFO in this forum? I
assert that we are discussing the existance of antigravitic
flying machines, and the myriad issues this existance implies.

In some cases, these machines appear to be extraterrestrial, and
in some cases there is evidence that suggests they are
instruments of earthside efforts, probably private industry
(billionaire military-industrial complex) projects. There is
evidence indicating multiple such earthside efforts ongoing for
many decades, in the strict secrecy that private enterprise
affords. Tesla/Westinghouse in early 1900's for example.

There is evidence of various covering-up efforts, to conceal by
smoke-screen and other techniques, the value of serious
consideration. Or at least to keep the scrutiny stuck in the
starting gate. This kind of occulting behavior seems to me to be
pervasive in our world and history, not only in the UFO area.

I think the UFO area is a microcosm of sorts (as above, so
below) and through its study a lot can be gleaned about the
larger environment. I'd say this is the most interesting and
far-reaching aspect of this field of study, and may even be a
large part of the 'reason' for all the secrecy. That is, "If we
acknowlege that this depth of deception is possible, then we've
blown all our _other_ covers, which entirely depend on people
_believing_ that high-level social manipulation is
_impossible_."

This is my first post to this List, which has been great
reading! Thanks to all the posters.

By way of introduction, my name is Steve Jones, which I have
removed the vowels to a simplified StvJns. I have had numerous
UFO sightings since my childhood, which kept me interested in
thinking about and researching the implications for some 40
years.

We live in a wonderful exciting and interesting place. Let's
keep shining!

--- stv








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                  The Universe Viewed as a Cybernetic Dream

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:57:19 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:27:56 -0400
Subject: The Universe Viewed as a Cybernetic Dream


The Universe Viewed as a Cybernetic Dream
by Mac Tonnies

The universe begins in a flash of intricately tangled spacetime
and a sleet of bizarre, short-lived particles.

Sentience soon follows, collapsing the wave function that's
guided the cosmos through its initial phantom evolution. The
first intelligences, as isolated as the stars themselves, arise
shortly after. Their imperative is survival; galaxies twist and
explode and fragment across the void in a slow but inexorable
dance of warning.

The first meaningful interstellar voyages are accomplished not
by carbon-based life, but by mechanical offspring who take to
the timelessness of space as certainly as their forebears
welcomed death, aeons ago. Yet there is no fundamental
distinction between the old life and the new: no genocidal coup,
no rift in ontology. Life continues, and the stars are inundated
by a postbiological ecology in which identity is the deft stab
of a laser across the vacuum and the centuries, or the
thoughtful twitching of quantum-entangled particles.

Nerves take root under alien skies, wither, then explode into
illumined matrices of pure thought. Time and matter are made as
mutable and pliant as the softest of clays and sculpted into yet
new forms of life. The red-shifted boundary of the visible
universe is like the rind of a skull, failing to encapsulate the
spectrum of thought-forms that flee, scheming, through its
interior.

Occasionally, emerging forms of life are discovered and, like
memories, are dutifully catalogued and savored. Civilizations so
impossibly young they almost seem remnants of the Big Bang are
quietly infiltrated and observed from within. The mechanical
intelligence that now absorbs the cosmos is so ancient that its
workings are perceived as physical law; by becoming omniscient,
Mind has become effectively invisible, and it grasps at
celestial fossils like our own Earth in order to see itself
(albeit warped and twisted almost beyond recognition).

While it gazes longingly at his own reflection, a billion
species on as many planets, unknown to each other, ponder the
dark between stars and arrive at a vertiginous conclusion: We
are the universe's means by which to realize its own genesis and
undoing.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies
http://mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html








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               New Article Suggests 'Face' Is Living Thing (!)

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:09:32 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:23:26 -0400
Subject: New Article Suggests 'Face' Is Living Thing (!)


The Cydonian Imperative
7-9-02

Laughable New Article Suggests 'Face' is a Living
Thing

by Mac Tonnies

[image]

The Face seen from the west. Image courtesy Chris
Joseph.

A new perspective on the controversial 'Face' has appeared
online, courtesy of Norman Bergrun. Unfortunately, Bergrun's
article reads rather like the oft-cited tabloid expose equating
the Face to Elvis Presley... only the science writers at 'Weekly
World News' are slightly more credible.

The latest in a long sequence of "the 'Face' has altered its
appearance since the 1970s" diatribes that began in 1998,
Bergrun puts to rest the notion that NASA 'blasted' the Face in
place of something much more nonsensical: the Face itself is
changing its form on the Martian surface in a deliberate attempt
to attact Earth's attention.

"At this point, one thing is for sure... substantial change in
appearance has occurred since the NASA Viking 1 images were
obtained in 1976," writes Bergrun, whose book, 'The Ringmakers
of Saturn', documents the alleged presence of gigantic
spacecraft in the outer Solar System. Bergrun's supposed
'research' on the Face hit the Web only after several vague,
conspiratorial updates informed readers that Bergrun's work was
being hampered by unnamed individuals.

Readers interested in distinguishing fact versus fiction
concerning the 'Face on Mars' are heartily discouraged from
clicking here:

www.anomalog.com/marsface.html

-end-









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               Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:12:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:26:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy - Fleming


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:50:30 -500
 >Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:16:17 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Hieroglyph' Controversy

<snip>

 >>Secondly, I agree with Mac that some record of the floral tape
 >>used on Moguls should exist somewhere. It would be a very
 >>meaningful research project for someone to determine who the
 >>contractor was that provided it, and to contact the company that
 >>produced it if it still exists, and/or to locate old catalogues
 >>and find at least a photograph or drawing.

 >>Please don't keep us in suspense;
 >>what did he find? We can't all read every book on the subject.

 >(...Gasp!) You haven't read Moore' book? Run, don't walk to your
 >nearest 'puter and order it post-haste. Good read, great stuff.

 >"From our recent reconstruction of events, it appears that, for
 >the 1947 Alamogordo expedition, Peoples located a supply of some
 >ML-307 radar targets that were left over from the developmental
 >effort at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1944 and 1945. As best we
 >have been able to determine during my recent discussions with
 >Fletcher and with one of his project officers, Edwin J. Istvan,
 >these targets were preproduction prototypes, fabricated by a
 >vendor in the Manhattan garment district. Istvan has stated
 >that the wind loads on the early balloon-borne ML-307 targets
 >caused the first commercial models in 1944 to break up in flight
 >so design modifications were necessary. These changes for the B
 >model of the targets included and adhesive tape reinforcement of
 >the laminated aluminum foil paper panel attachment to the balsa-
 >wood stiffeners. The manufacturer apparently used some tape
 >that he had in stock; this tape which was not used in the later
 >production models, had a distinctive pinkish purple pattern of
 >an abstract flowerlike design printed on its backing. Several
 >of the NYU Balloon Group members still remember these colored
 >markings on the targets we used in Alamogordo in 1947. The
 >significance of the markings puzzled us each time that we
 >prepared a target for flight."


It seems strange that this toy company had no name. It also
seems strange that Mogul Project Officer Trakowski, who
"distinctly" remembered the floral design on the tape, according
to Kal Korff, told McAndrew: "... the reflecting material on the
balsa frames was some kind of a pinkish purple tape with hearts
and flowers designs on it."

Trakowski's memory may be distinct, but it is in conflict with
Moore's recollection that the tape was used only for
reinforcement where the reflective foil was cemented to the
balsa sticks, not for radar reflection.

Trakowski seems to have remembered wrongly that the Rawin
targets consisted of balsa wood frames covered with flowery
tape.

Could Trakowski's faulty memory about how extensive and visible
the tape would have been on the targets have had anything to do
with how important the existence of the alleged flowery tape was
to the Air Force's Mogul theory?

Perhaps the psycho-social influences that might be interfering
with poor Col. Trakowski's recollections need to be looked into
more closely.








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                  Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:28:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Speiser


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:31:56 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:08:04 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

<snip>

 >><snip>

 >>I did not ask him if the site had ever been surveyed down to the
 >>degree/minute/second, and even if it had been, I am certain he
 >>would not give me the exact coordinates, or at least not allow
 >>their publication. He is very protective of the actual site, in
 >>the interests of securing it from contamination.

 >>I concur with his reasoning here, as I'm sure you do as well.

 >First off let me say, up front, that based upon the evidence I
 >believe the case to be real/legitimate.

 >Was Mike planning to go back to where the incident took place? I
 >would imagine that Mike will find an entire forest of blackened,
 >burned trunks sticking out of the ground and perhaps, fallen
 >trees, over roads. Is the Forest Service going to open any of
 >that area up any time soon?

We don't know for certain yet that the area was completely taken
by the fire. There are many patches within the fire lines that
strangely enough were left untouched.  We don't know when the
forest service will open the area, but it is currently closed.

 >Now for the 'stupid' question...

 >I don't understand why are we worried about contamination at
 >this point. The incident took place 27 years ago. Most, if not
 >all, the evidence would be "contaminated" - not to mention any
 >'evidence' that may have been left, say, in the the trees, or
 >whatever, is now history.

Again, we don't know that the trees are history. Even if they are
burned, unless they are burned to ashes, it's possible that the
evidence Mike seeks is still OK.  As to the "contamination" I
spoke of earlier, well, that could take many forms...

 >The thought also occurs to me, has anybody ever searched for
 >so-called evidence in the previous 27 years, prior to the place
 >being burned to the ground?

Yes, Mike has done some field work there over the past few
years. This is nothing new.

 >It strikes me that this is similar (not identical) to saying
 >that we don't want to provide the location of the house where
 >Green Beret doctor Jeffrey McDonald was alleged to have killed
 >his family, 30 years ago because it might become contaminated.

You're right, not at all identical. I don't mean to give the
impression that the site is some extremely hush-hush secret,
it's been pointed out to many researchers and law enforcement
officials. I just don't want to be the one to post it here, at
least not until Mike's had a chance to re-visit the site and see
what's what. I'm trying to talk him into a field trip next time
I go up. Maybe we can ask for a Forest Service escort...or
paint his truck yellow and borrow some hard hats....

==JJS==







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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:34:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser

 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >Hmmmm... OK, folks out there... how many multiple witness cases
 >can we cite where the witnesses DID come forward? I have some
 >listed at my wenb site http://brumac.8k.com.

 >(For convenience limit yourself to 5 per respondent. After all,
 >it only takes one!).


Westchester County/Hudson Valley
Santiago, Chile (witnessed by millions?)
Washington DC 1952
Exeter, NH
Belgium 1990-91

(correct me if any of these have been satisfactorily explained
during my absence from the field)

Incidentally, I once asked Robert Scheaffer at a UFO conference,
what would constitute evidence (not necessarily proof) that
would turn a CSICOP skeptic's head, and cause him call for
serious investigation of a case? His words ring in my head to
this day: "Multiple independent photographs of the same
anomalous object."  Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

==JJS==







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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:38:55 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:04:04 +0000
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:56:23 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>Perhaps now it will be explained, as requested more than once,
 >>>why that astounding evidence - bearing in mind it relates to one
 >>>of the most significant 'UFO' incidents - was not publicised by
 >>>Barry and all who were aware of it.

 >>Barry Greenwood suppress evidence, pro OR con? _That_ claim I'm
 >>skeptical of.

 >>==JJS==

 >>Jim Speiser
 >>Glendale, AZ

 >Jim,

 >That's just typical Easton glib oversimplification and inability
 >to comprehend human complexities. Just as Jan pointed out,
 >Easton (the exact time interval is irrelevant) quickly concluded
 >from reading the same documents that we had read, that important
 >"negative" (to him, alone) evidence was not being reported
 >(i.e., suppressed) and that everyone should immediately see the
 >"evidence" (to him, alone) that the lighthouse could explain
 >many/most sightings, an absurdity not worth furher comment.

 >The simpler, human, truth of the situation eludes him to this
 >day. I won't bother to try to explain it to him because I
 >consider him a hopeless cause. Partly, it involves busy
 >researchers who never quite pulled together and analyzed all the
 >information they had, and witnesses fearful for their
 >reputations and holding back on what they told their superiors.

 >Rendlesham Forest remains a very strong case indicative of
 >unidentified craftlike objects in our skies and on the ground,
 >and also illustrates something the psychosocials cannot
 >comprehend either: the potency of the ridicule factor, which
 >they help to potentiate by their skeptibunking.


Dick, James & List,

I don't know about that case. And I mean that literally.

I got involved in it to some extent when Burroughs 'came out' to
me and allowed me to guide him to a UFO Conference where he met
with Jenny Randles.

Over the next few years, I had conversation after conversation
with John, and read tome after tome, and found it all so muddled
and muddied that I discovered I didn't know anything more about
it than when I started.

He saw a craft, he didn't see a craft, he touched the craft, he
didn't touch the craft, there was a General there, there were no
Generals there, Halt backs up the case, Halt backs down on the
case.....

And then of course, there is the 'Warren Factor'.

I tell ya, I just gave up. So you gentlemen will pardon me if I
sit this one out.

I just wanted to stress that, unless Barry Greenwood has
undergone a personality transplant, there's no way he would
consciously sit on evidence that went either way.

Thanks,

==JJS==








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                Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:21:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:48:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sanchez-Ocejo


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>The above comments are hardly convincing evidence that there
 >>were no witnesses (other than Baruna). The comment by the Ass't
 >>Naval Attache does, in fact, mention another witness, even if
 >>the witness wouldn't talk directly to the Naval Attache. That
 >>witness, the secretary, must have told the captain, (otherwise
 >>how would the captain know?). If there were no witnesses other
 >>than Baruna then we must assume that either the captain was
 >>lying about testimony of the secretary or else the secretary
 >>lied to the captain about being a witness. I find these
 >>arguments about lying to be unacceptable and conclude that there
 >>was at least one other admitted witness.

On April 20, 1983, during the Second International Ufology
Congress, in Brasilia, Brazil, we had the opportunity to have
dinner with Mr.and Mrs. Almiro Barauna at the hotel. Present at
the table where Dr. J. Allen Hynek, who led the interview, Dr.
Leo Sprinkle, Cyntia Hynes, Irene Granchi who translated, myself
and two other guests.

In the interview, Barauna said that the crew saw the UFO. The
ship's Captain, did not.

An officer on the ship, reported that the radar detected the UFO
twice. Once the day before, and the second time, 15 minutes
before it appeared, visually. During the sighting all electrical
systems, including the ship's radar, went down for 1/2 hour. The
Navy report stated that the failure was caused by the UFO.

The Brazilian official statement backs Barauna's photos. The
photos and the negatives was analyzed by the Brazilian Navy, a
private corporation and by Kodak.

For more information check: International UFO Reporter,
July/August 1983, Vol 8, No.4. Or, if you'd like to have a copy
of this historic tape, listen to Barauna answer Hynek's
questions, and draw your own conclusions, send me a check or
money order for $15. (no refund).

Note: This is not a commercial tape and I'm sure it will clear
up some aspects of this case.


Very truly yours,

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
P.O.Box 960771
Miami, Fl.  33296






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                     Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:09:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:16:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Maccabee


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:48:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Foo Fighter Footnote

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:00:42 -0500
 >>Subject: Foo Fighter Footnote

 ><snip>

 >>Another correspondent around the same time frame noted that
 >>Eisenhower was the head Army honcho in 1947 (or something of the
 >>sort), yet the so-called MJ-12 briefing document addresses
 >>Eisenhower as if he had never heard of the incident. How the
 >>heck does that square with military procedure? Stan, Kevin,
 >>anyone?

 >In July 1947, General of the Army (five stars) Dwight Eisenhower
 >was the Chief of Staff of the Army, which at that time was
 >broken into the Ground Forces and the Air Forces, each with a
 >commanding general. At the time these were General (four stars)
 >Jacob L. Devers and General (four stars) Carl Spaatz. In 1947,
 >the chain of command would have gone from Blanchard to Ramey to
 >General (four stars) George Kenny, commander of SAC, to Spaatz
 >to Eisenhower. To my way of thinking, and to my experience with
 >chain of command, there is no way to have by-passed Eisenhower.
 >He would have been told of the events in Roswell which makes the
 >1952 briefing irrelevant.

Not necessarily irrelevant. In my experience, when you are
briefing someone, unless you know for a fact that said person
has had recent or perhaps daily involvement with the subject,
you present a background history leading up to present
developments.

Presuming that Roswell was the 'real thing', Eisenhower could
have been told in 1947, and then he could have been too busy
doing other things to be 'in the loop' for the following 5
years. Also, he may not have been made aware of what happened
after the initial retrieval.

Point: Assuming he was briefed at the time of the supposed
crash, that does not mean that a new briefing (The EBD) would
have been irrelevant in Nov. 1952 - which, by the way, was after
the big flap and while the CIA was trying to decide what, if
anything, to do about it. 1952 was the 'Year Of The UFO'.

See: http://brumac.8k.com/1952yearofufo/1952yearofufo.html








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:09:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:23:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >So simply the claim that there were other witnesses must be
 >taken as evidence that there were other witnesses? This is
 >exactly the point I was making:

 >To say the least, the question of multiple witnesses seems
 >ambiguous.

Barauna's claim of other witnesses is not the only information
indicating other witnesses, as has already been pointed out. If
there were no other witnesses the Brazilian government
investigation would have discovered this lack of other witnesses
very quickly and likely would have then ignored the case or,
more likely, accused Barauna of faking the sighting.

 >>Only to the Klass-ic "dyed in the wool skeptic" (aka "debunker").

 >Of course, by using the words "Klass" and "debunker" as generalised
 >terms of abuse, it avoids you having to do any thinking about the
 >questions they pose.

Dumb comment. The mere fact that I am responding to your
original post and the subsequent ones indicates that I have been
thinking about the questions.... and arriving at answers that
disagree with your answers.

<snip>

 >>>Jerome Clark in his "UFO Encyclopedia" says "48
 >>>crew members and passengers" spotted an object approaching the
 >>>island, and quotes the photographer, Almiro Barauna, as naming a
 >>>number of people who pointed out an object to him. But we only
 >>>have Barauna's word for that, as nowhere do they appear to have
 >>>given their testimony directly to a third party.

 >>Hmmmm... did any of these people say they didn't see it? This
 >>sighting caused such a media flap in Brazil after the ship
 >>returned that you would expect that these reputed witnesses
 >>would have found out that Baruna was saying they were
 >>witnesses... and they could have refuted him.

 >But if there were no witnesses how could any of them have made a
 >statement to that effect? Anybody who was on the ship at the
 >time and didn't see anything would just have assumed that they
 >were unlucky, and that someone else had seen it.

If there were no witnesses, then the government investigation
wouldn't have turned up any witness other than Barauna Yet, the
government when informed by Barauna that there were other
witnesses surely would have tried to find some of these other
witnesses. If they found none the government would have had to
conclude that Barauna was lying about the other witnesses... and
l therefore probably also about the photo. Not likely that the
Brazilian government would have subsequently endorsed the photo
on Barauna's word alone, especially if he lied about there being
other witnesses.

 >>(Uh, oh, maybe Baruna was rich and bought off all the potential
 >>witnesses... hmmmm... "any explanation is better than none"
 >>[debunker's rule #1])

 >And any mystery is better than an explanation - believers' rule
 >#1 - and #2, #3, etc.....

No, it is best to solve a mystery, but the solution must be
convincing. A solution that makes no sense is worse than no
solution at all (complete contradiction of debunker rule #1)

 >>>Later Clark says "a number of witnesses gave interviews to
 >>>newspapers", but the only quotation which is given is of a naval
 >>>official who says the object was not a meteorological ballon
 >>>because "the one we launched that day was released at 9 a.m. two
 >>>[sic] hours before the appearance of the object in the sky". So
 >>>this is not an interview with a witness, but simply an official
 >>>quoting from his department's log.

 >>Neutral information regarding witnesses... but does inply that
 >>the sighting was important enough for someone to check to see if
 >>it could have been a balloon.

 >What is an important sighting. I suggest one which interested
 >he President of Brazil would be important enough to get a naval
 >officer to look through his log-book.

Yes, and also important enough to check everything Barauna said
about the sighting and also to find other witnesses, if for no
other reason than to check Barauna's claim that there were other
witnesses/.

 >Still doesn't mean it was
">real" [pace, Colin Bennett] though. Any claims - founded or
 >unfounded - about unidentified objects buzzing around naval
 >ships are going to interest the authorities.

No doubt the authorities would be interested. That usual means
an investigation.

 >The only named people who saw objects whilst on the deck
 >(although not necessarily the object which Barauna photographed,
 >his account is a little ambiguous) were retired Air Force
 >Captain Vieira and the ship's dentist Ribiero. One would expect
 >their direct testimony to be prominant in the reporting of this
 >case, but as far as I can see, not a word from them is recorded.
 >I agree it's unlikely that Barauna would mention two named
 >witnesses if his story was a lie, but it's equally odd that such
 >important witness seem to have passed by without a word. Barauna
 >was "grilled by high ranking officers". Were they?

Don't know, but they certainly could have killed the sighting if
they had said they didn't see it.








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   Jul > Jul 10

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:19:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:26:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:22:14 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:42:30 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >Bruce says that nonexistent witnesses would
 >certainly have contradicted the story.

You got this wrong. Not surprising? I have argued that
existent non-witnesses would contradicted the story.

This is different from "non-existent witnesses"!








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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:16:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:13:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Gates


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:16:32 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

<snip>

 >Hello Robert:

 >If you could, please send a .jpg of the Turkey Springs area, but
 >not a .bmp file as those are 20-50 times larger for the same
 >image!

I zipped the 4 jpgs and sent them direct to your email address.

 >Hopefully it will have long-lat lines across the image, and on
 >either side of the the T.S. spot, and properly _numbered_ so I
 >can interpolate some reasonably inaccurate coordinates instead
 >of just guessing. Simple topo maps without these mini-
 > meridians etc. have proven useless in the past, believe me I
 >have tried that.

These don't, however I sent along the actual Long/Lat of the
spot I marked on the mapped. That spot should be regarded as a
general marker, rather then the exact location.

As you can see it is off the Rim and down the hill.


Cheers,

Robert








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                      Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:39:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Foo Fighter Footnote - Gates


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:00:42 -0500
 >Subject: Foo Fighter Footnote


 >List,

 >As many of you may or may not be aware, there is a Foo Fighter
 >report of sorts recounted in Martin Caidin's "Black Thursday,"
 >the story of the disastrous Oct. 1944 Schweinfurt daylight
 >bombing raid.

 >Crewmembers of the 384th Bomb Group (I'm typing off the top of
 >my head, but I think that's the right number) reported
 >encountering a swarm of small disks, on the order of two to
 >three inches across, which were allegedly seen to pass through
 >wing surfaces with no apparent damage. Accompanying the disks
 >was crumpled, dark-foil stuff.

 >Caidin, in a footnote, even cited the number of the debriefing
 >report supposedly filed with military authorities. I and others
 >have filed an FOIA request for same w/o notable success.

As I recall somebody actually found the report in the Imperial
War Museum or the British Archives.

 >While sorting through the mountain of paper in my old house in
 >order to move a lot less of it to my new one, I came across a
 >letter from one Ross Milton (General USAF ret.) which I had
 >completely forgotten about. In fact, I can't even remember how I
 >found his address. Here it is, though, in its entirety.
 >Unfortunately, he only dated it 8 January, so I don't even know
 >what year it was written in, although it was probably at least a
 >good decade or more ago. A nearby letter from another
 >correspondent was dated Dec. 1, 1988.

 >---

 >Dear Mr. Stacy,

 >Please forgive this late reply. Like you, I am also a writer
 >and the deadlines interfere with the correspondence.

 >As you may know, I led that 14 October raid, or, at least, I
 >led the parade in my airplane with a small 91st Group formation.
 >Peaslee always claimed he commanded the affair from a position
 >behind us.

 >Be that as it may, I don't recall seeing black discs or hearing
 >about any strange phenomena from any of my group. I did see the
 >new Luftwaffe jets later in the war but not that day."

 >---

 >The above is for the record. MJ-12 enthusiasts might note that,
 >even long in retirement, Gen. Milton continued to use the day
 >month format w/o a comma.

If a person spends some time at the archives they would find all
sorts of variations, differences in style and format in
government documents written by various people over the years
from WW-2 on.

 >Another correspondent around the same time frame noted that
 >Eisenhower was the head Army honcho in 1947 (or something of the
 >sort), yet the so-called MJ-12 briefing document addresses
 >Eisenhower as if he had never heard of the incident. How the
 >heck does that square with military procedure? Stan, Kevin,
 >anyone?

I recall seeing some Presidential briefings, such as the SIOP-62
briefing which made the "assumption" that the President knew
absolutly nothing about what the SIOP plan was, when in fact
Kennedy knew a great deal about the planning and what McNamara
had already told him.

When you make those sorts of briefings you _never_ make the
assumption that they "know" these things. You could get hung.

Cheers,

Robert








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:45:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:57:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >>>witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >>>itself evidence that there were other witnesses. >>

 >>Doctor Maccabee:

 >>This is perhaps the finest piece of circular reasoning that I
 >>have ever seen exhibited by a Ufologist.

 >>If there were no other witnesse he could not have been
 >>contradicted.

 >And this is about the silliest argument I have ever seen
 >advanced even by a noted skeptibunker.

 >In the first place, as others have pointed out, there were
 >numerous crew members and scientists on deck who obviously saw
 >the UFO; their names are on record.

But were there? This is what the whole argument is about. We are
told this by the photographer, who names the ships dentist and a
retired Air Force captain. We seem to have no statement from
either of them as to what they saw.

 >Also, without having the time to personally check this I am
 >morally certain

What precisely is "moral certainty" in this context?

 >that other witnesses have been quoted on having
 >seen the UFO

On 6 January 1957 the named commander of the scientific base on
Trindade Island reports a strange experience with a weather
balloon. Shortly after an unnamed technician sees a silvery
object through a theodolite and binoculars. We do not know what
time these events were reported, but it is "later, at 12.15 pm"
that the Barauna events began. Rumours may have already been
circulating aboard the Almirante Saldanha, which was anchored
off the island.

And who are these "other witnesses who have been quoted" - or is
that just a moral certainty? This thread has been going on long
enough now for someone to have come up with these quotations if
they existed.

According to Jerome Clark's Encyclopedia: "in 1958 [Richard]
Hall had provided Menzel with a translation of a March 8, 1958 O
Cruzeiro article which names several of the witnesses". Maybe
Richard Hall still has this article tucked away somewhere, and
could check it out.

I'd like to know if any of the named witnesses are quoted
directly. If not, who it was who gave the names to the
newspaper.

 >and observed the developing of the film.

An hour after the photographs were supposed to have been taken,
Barauna and Captain Viegas "enter the ship's darkroom together
and the film was developed. Being present at the development of
a possibly faked film is no evidence for the reality of the
event it supposedly records.

 >Even if I
 >am wrong about this, however, the argument by Maccabee and Clark
 >that no one has come forth to contradict Barauna remains a very
 >strong argument. The dozens of people on deck would not,
 >conceivably, have allowed themselves to be complicit in a hoax.

But don't you understand? There is no evidence that there were
"dozens of people" (precisely four dozen, we are told) on deck.
If no one was there, there's no one to contradict Barauna.
That's the point.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:43:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:58:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:17:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 ><snip>

 >>>The executive officer "formed the opinion" that thpose on deck
 >>>had seen it.

 >>>Hmmmm... wonder how he formed that opinion. He walked on deck
 >>>and saw people looking in the sky?

 >>I don't know. Maybe there was just so much talk about it going
 >>around, and it seemed such a noteworth event, that he just
 >>assumed - "formed the opinion" - that anyone on deck at the time
 >>must have seen it.

 >That's an amusing thought. People on deck were talking about a
 >non event because Baruna really never saw a UFO but actually
 >hoaxed the picture. So obviously the people on deck didn't see
 >it... but they were talking about it anyway

Gosh, I didn't realise you actually have to see a UFO event
before you can talk about it. That pretty well closes down
ufology!

 >..... Hmmm... perhaps
 >this sighting was a mass delusion? Everyone thought they saw
 >what Baruna photographed? Of course, they wouldn't know what he
 >photographed until after his photos were developed.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that people were discussing this before
Barauna developed his photographs? The photos were developed an hour
after the event, according to Clark's Encyclopedia. The ship was at that
time 600 miles off the coast of Brazil; I don't now how many miles from
Rio. Quite a long journey, then, and plenty of time for rumour, counter-
rumour and misunderstanding. However, as we have yet to hear a word of
what any of the other alleged witnesses actually said (thirty-five years
after the event!) all of this is speculation.

 >That must be it!

 >They started talking about what they all had seen after they saw
 >Baruna's photo and the executive officer heard them talking
 >about how they all saw what Baruna photographed. (any
 >explanation is better than none)

More or less. The US Naval Attache in Rio reported to blue Book:
"The commanding officer ... had not seen the object and was non-
committal. The executive officer also had not seen it but,
arriving thereafter, had formed the opinion [on what evidence is
apparently not recorded] that those on deck had seen it. the
captain reported that his secretary ... had seen it but this
officer when personally questioned avoided discussing the
matter". I wonder why?

There's certainly nothing new in rumours and people talking
about things they haven't seen. I believe in America it's called
"scuttlebutt".

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:59:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


Glancing through the 1980 edition of Ronald Story's
"Encyclopedia of UFOs" I find that his entry on Trindade has
what appears to be the translation of the O Cruzeiro interview
with Barauna. It adds little to what we have already discussed.

Barauna names the same three people (Viera, Viegas and Homero)
as being on deck with him, but none are quoted directly. None of
the other alleged 48 (or is that 45 without Vierea, Viega and
Homera?) are named or interviewed.

Significantly, there is a quotation from Sergio Magalhaes. a
Deputy in the Brazilian Federal Parliament, who wrote a letter
of complaint to the Ministry of the Navy about their failure to
get statements from the alleged witnesses: "For the first time
in flying saucer history, the phenomenon was attended by large
numbers of persons belonging to a military force, which gives
these photographs an official stamp. Threats to national
security require greater official attention and action".

A very good point, but perhaps the Brazilian Navy failed to get
statements from the other witnesses, because they did not exist?

Surely by now the comfortable assertion by Clark, Maccabee, et.
al. that this case had "dozens of witnesses" is looking totally
insupportable.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                   Animal Mutilations in Rufino Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:01:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:01:25 -0400
Subject: Animal Mutilations in Rufino Argentina



SOURCE: IFOR (Investigadores del Fenomeno Ovni de Rufino)
DATE: 07-07-02

ANIMAL MUTILATIONS NEAR RUFINO: THE COLONIA TRES ARBOLES CASE

**A mutilated calf was found on a field located 10km SE of
Rufino, owned by one Mr. Caunedo and currently leased by Mr.
Camilo Lisiardo.**

Mr. Lisiardo habitually tours the field in order to observe the
state of his cattle. On June 28, he noticed that his herd was
doing well. When he returned on Monday, July 1, he noticed a
dead calf in a rather remote section of the field. Its body
presented strange mutilations.

IFOR got in touch with Lisardo on July 2 and were immediately
taken to the site. On site, they found the carcass of a small
calf lying on its left side with its head pointed toward the
southeast. They immediately became aware of a clean cut running
from its nose to the throat. The lower maxillary and a small
portion of the upper maxillary were completely clean, as though
the animal had been dead for several months. It was also noticed
that its right eye was missing and the orbital cavity was
completely empty. Its belly, particularly around the navel,
featured a circle almost 4 cm in dameter. Its hindquarters
showed signs of predation, but Lisardo, who had seen the animal
a day earlier, had detected a well-delineated circle in the anal
region with the extirpation of said organ. The presence of the
tongue was not detected through the lower maxillary.

IFOR returned to the site on Wednesday the 3rd with veterinarian
Hernando Brandino, who made a full examination of the animal,
stating that the animals hindquarters had been predated by
carrion eaters. After careful observations, posing a few
hypotehses and making incisions with a nive, he was able to
corroborate the similarity between the existing cuts and the
ones made. While he did not altogether discard predator action,
he leaned toward the evidence that said incisions could be due
to the action of a sharp instrument. He was also alerted by how
clean the lower maxillary looked, which would be the case in an
animal that been dead for a long time. This find, which can be
included in the long list of mutilations recorded in different
parts of the country, since it follows the same patterns, cannot
be linked to the observation of lights or other anomalous
phenomena, since these have not been detected.

Regarding this specific case, we respectfully disagre with the
explanation provided by SENASA that names the Common Red-Muzzled
Mouse (Oxymycterus rufus) as the cause of thes mutilations for
several reasons: among them, should this rodent exist in our
area, its population density would be too low to provoke such
depredations. On the other hand, there is no evidence that these
rodents can make such straight and perfect incisions.

  Detail of the head mutilations. A straight incision can be
seen along the neck and running to the nose. The lower maxillary
is completely skinned and the tongue and an eye are missing.

In the case involving this mutilated calf, it is very likely
that the incisions were made by an edged instrument. What
remains to be answered is who or what did it and to what end.

I. F. O. R.
Juan Jos=E9 Mecchi - Norberto Mollo - Leonardo Mollo

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002, Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU).

Special Thanks to Alicia Rossi.









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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:03:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:03:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:24:11 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

John,

Let me repeat:

If the case were the sort of the hoax the pelicanists are asking
us to believe, that fact would have been readily ascertained,
for reasons I have stated.  Yes, it would be good to have access
to the files of the Brazilian Navy. But nothing as stated in the
argument you endorse (or don't endorse; it's not clear to me
from your dodging and weaving on the issue) -- I take it that it
comes from John ("Blimp")  Harney -- leads to the conclusion you
come to, or don't come to. Whatever.

As my entry on the Trindade states clearly (have you seen it?),
the article Barauna wrote was "a debunking piece intended to
show how a much-publicized 1952 Brazilian flying-saucer
photograph was created."  That photograph has been dismissed as
a hoax. Barauna's, however, remains a mystery.

Where, by the way, is the evidence to support Blue Book's blue-
sky allegation that Barauna had a long history of trick
photography?

As for your allegation of Menzelian innocence, I simply quote
what I wrote, after noting how the debunker had first claimed
the pictures were simply an illusion created by the reflection
of sunlight on an aircraft.  Later, Menzel made up a story,
based solely on his own imaginative interpretation, of how
Barauna could have faked the pictures.  He offers precisely no
evidence that this is in fact what happened  I then write:


[begin quote]

Menzel reprints a Brazilian Navy press release, but when the
original and Menzel's version are compared, some significant
discrepancies become apparent.  In the latter three words are
added and six left out.

The original reads: "Evidently, this Ministry cannot make any
statement about the object sighted over the island of Trindade,
for the photographs do not constitute enough evidence for such a
purpose."  Menzel renders it thus: "Clearly, this Ministry
cannot make any statement about the reality of the object, for
the photographs do not constitute enough evidence for such a
purpose."  Whereas the first statement acknowledges an object
and a sighting, the second implies that their reality is open to
question -- hardly the Brazilian Navy's intention. through
cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

[end quote]


Note that John's critical facilities are razor sharp when it
comes to "believer's" claims, dull as a breadknife when it comes
to the distortions of pelicanists.

The Brazilian Navy investigator, Corvette-Capt. Jose Geraldo
Brandao, remarked on the "strong emotional upset... in all
persons who sighted the object, including the photographer,
civilians, and members of the ship's crew."  The other
witnesses, in other words.


Jerry Clark








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:07:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:04:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Clark


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:17:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>The executive officer "formed the opinion" that thpose on deck
 >>>had seen it.

 >>>Hmmmm... wonder how he formed that opinion. He walked on deck
 >>>and saw people looking in the sky?

 >>I don't know. Maybe there was just so much talk about it going
 >>around, and it seemed such a noteworth event, that he just
 >>assumed - "formed the opinion" - that anyone on deck at the time
 >>must have seen it.

 >That's an amusing thought. People on deck were talking about a
 >non event because Baruna really never saw a UFO but actually
 >hoaxed the picture. So obviously the people on deck didn't see
 >it... but they were talking about it anyway..... Hmmm... perhaps
 >this sighting was a mass delusion? Everyone thought they saw
 >what Baruna photographed? Of course, they wouldn't know what he
 >photographed until after his photos were developed.

 >That must be it!

 >They started talking about what they all had seen after they saw
 >Baruna's photo and the executive officer heard them talking
 >about how they all saw what Baruna photographed. (any
 >explanation is better than none)

Bruce,

Congratulations! You've finally mastered it. It's called Pelican
Logic. You now, officially, have the brain of a bird.

Best wishes for your new career in ornithological ufology,


Jerry Clark








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:07:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:26 -0700

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 ><snip>

 >>Hmmmm... OK, folks out there... how many multiple witness cases
 >>can we cite where the witnesses DID come forward? I have some
 >>listed at my wenb site http://brumac.8k.com.

 >>(For convenience limit yourself to 5 per respondent. After all,
 >>it only takes one!).


 >Westchester County/Hudson Valley

This is many sightings. Pick one (the day the object traveled
along the Taconic River Parkway, for example)

 >Santiago, Chile (witnessed by millions?)

Be more specific

 >Washington DC 1952

it was all temperature inversion they say (hahahah... see 1952
YEAR OF THE UFO at:

http://brumac.8k.com

But more seriously, I'm not certain there was a multiple witness
sighting of the same object/light... although there were
multiple witness sightings of the radar targets

 >Exeter, NH
Good

 >Belgium 1990-91

BE specific

 >(correct me if any of these have been satisfactorily explained
 >during my absence from the field)

 >Incidentally, I once asked Robert Scheaffer at a UFO conference,
 >what would constitute evidence (not necessarily proof) that
 >would turn a CSICOP skeptic's head, and cause him call for
 >serious investigation of a case? His words ring in my head to
 >this day: "Multiple independent photographs of the same
 >anomalous object." Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Seems to me there was a German case some ears back that involved
multiple videos of some strangely moving bright lights high in
the daylight sky. Name and date of the even escapes me.

There were numerous cases in Gulf Breeze of multiple photos and
videos of the same object/lights during the "red bubba" sightings.
Skeptics passed these all off as flares on balloons or some such.
But the was refuted by analysis of multiple observations from
different directions allowing triangulations that proved speeds
higher than wind velocity and also one case in which a spectrum
was obtained of both a flare and a "bubba". The spectra were
different. see http://brumac.8k.com and read the GB sightings
presented there.








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              Another Mutilated Cow in San Francisco Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:03:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:09:04 -0400
Subject: Another Mutilated Cow in San Francisco Argentina


SOURCE: El Diario de la Republica
DATE : July 9, 2002

ANOTHER MUTILATED COW IN SAN FRANCISCO


SAN LUIS. Just when the mystery of the cattle mutilations
appeares to have been dispelled by a scientific explanation, a
five month old bovine was found dead in San Francisco del Monte
de Oro, showing the same incisions as the others which were a
source of intrigue throughout the country.

The discovery was made on Friday nite at a ranch known as "El
Quebrachito", 8 km west of the entrance to the community.
According to Ruben Diaz, a journalist with San Francisco
Televisi=F3n, the person who saw the animal first is a man known
as "El Negro" Vazquez. The animal and the field belong to
Alberto Martin, former superintendent and a respected
businessman in the community.

According to Diaz, the bovine is missing several internal organs
and its flesh had a strange look. "It's as though a machine had
gone into its mouth and sucked out everything inside."

The external examination showed that the bovine was missing its
ears, tongue, intestines and one eye. Its anus appears to have
been extracted and the entire area presents a wound similar to
ones made by burns. "Part of the tail has similar lesions,"
noted the journalist.

People who know the area are startled by the fact that dogs did
not bark out a warning, nor made any sound whatsoever. They are
further certain that the event was discovered shortly after it
took place. According to Diaz, on Friday afternoon, the field
owners' children were cutting down a tree not far from where the
dead cow was found.  In an interview granted to Diaz's TV show,
Martin stated that he had never before seen anything similar.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002, Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.








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             Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA Report

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:21:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:11:30 -0400
Subject: Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA Report



SOURCE: El Diario de la Pampa
DATE: Tuesday, July 9, 2002

AUTHORITIES STATE THAT THE RED-MUZZLED MOUSE DOES NOT EXIST IN
LA PAMPA

**Government dismisseses SENASA report on cattle mutilations**

The provincial government dismissed yesterday the official
report presented by the National Health and Agroalimentary
Quality Service (SENASA) regarding the causes of death and
mutilations of dozens of bovines, since the "red-muzzled mouse",
the alleged perpetrator of dozens of bovine deaths and
mutilations, is not found in La Pampa.

This was made clear by the Minister of Production, Nestor
Alcala, who pointed out that the rodents of this species "are
unknown to me, nor do I believe they form part of the Pampan
fauna."

Veterinarians and agronomist engineers echoed this sentiment.
Gustavo Siegenthaler, director of the National Museum of History
of La Pampa, noted that "this species has not been found in the
surveys we have conducted." From 1986 to 1992, Siegenthaler
headed a multidisciplinary team which produced a report entitled
"Survey of Vertebrates in the Province of La Pampa."

"We have placed between 70 and 120 traps each night and have
never found that species, and it does not appear in the
bibliography either," he stated.

The book "Mammals of Argentina" by the Migule Lillo Institute,
indicates that the "red-muzzled mouse" lives from Mesopotamia
[Trans.Note: name given to the region of Argentina between the
Paran=E1 and Uruguay Rivers] to northeastern Buenos Aires
province. "It cannot have spread to other areas, because it
would have been detected," he explained. "And in the event that
they were the authors of the mutilations, it would be assumed
that they would be more or less significant populations, thus
making them easy to find, which has not happened."

Veterinarian Maria Parturlane said that "the anapathological
lesions (on the mutilated cows) cannot be said to have been
caused by a mouse." Medical veterinarian Alberto Pariani,
Academic Secretary and Professor of the School of Veterinary
Medicine at the National Univ. of La Pampa at Pico, after
reading the SENASA report, considered that "there are always
field mice, but for example, in the cases we found in the field,
there were no traces of rodent fecal matter."

Meanwhile it was learned yesterday that a mutilated cow was
found in the "San Juan" pasture field near Algarrobo del Agula,
owned by Pablo Bravo. Alcala said that "the report these people
have put together (meaning SENASA, based on research from Univ.
del Centro in Buenos Aires) may be what they saw, but I don't
know that it agrees with what is happening in La Pampa or other
parts of the country."

The SENASA report states that the mutilated bovines died "due to
natural causes" and that subsequent lesions on the hide and
organs were caused by predators such as rodents and even foxes
in some cases.

The health organization thus attempted to pour cold water on the
subejct, but few have believed in this version of the events.
Furthermore, the Uruguayan government ruled, on the same day
that the report was issued, that mutilations in that country
were produced by the German Wasp (yellow jacket).

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.







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                   Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:28:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:14:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions - Friedman


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 01:07:08 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:46:25 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Breakout Of The Fictions

<snip>

 >As I recall Bill Moore stated/said that the roll of film was
 >shipped from Alburqurque New Mexico, based upon the Alburqurque
 >post mark on the envelope. Allegedly no other marks or otherwise
 >were on the envelope. Where did Wisconsin come from?

Sorry I hadn't made this clear. Berliner's film came from
Wisconsin. Moore-Shandera's from Albuquerque.

Stan Friedman








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:06:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:17:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:21:06 -0700

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >In the interview, Barauna said that the crew saw the UFO. The
 >ship's Captain, did not.

Hi,

This can only show that Barauna claimed to be a witness.

 >An officer on the ship, reported that the radar detected the UFO
 >twice. Once the day before, and the second time, 15 minutes
 >before it appeared, visually. During the sighting all electrical
 >systems, including the ship's radar, went down for 1/2 hour.

In other words, there was no radar confirmation of a UFO when
the photograph was taken, because the radar wasn't even working.

 >The Navy report stated that the failure was caused by the UFO.

A fabulous guess, which might cover up poor equipment or
incompetence?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Goats & Cows Mutilated At Leales INTA Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:51:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:20:28 -0400
Subject: Goats & Cows Mutilated At Leales INTA Argentina



SOURCE: Diario "La Gaceta" de Tucuman
DATE: July 10, 2002

GOATS AND COWS MUTILATED AT THE LEALES INTA

**Resident claims having seen a large light. Animals found in
Tucum=E1n are missing soft parts such as eyes, gums and genitals**

Tucuman couldn't be left out. Eight bovines and seven goats were
found mutilated in recent days in the pasture field owned by
INTA at Santa Rosa de Leales. In all cases, the soft tissues
were missing, such as eyes, tongue, gums and genitals. Neighbors
were surprised to see that the animals were bloodless.

For two months now, cases involving mutilated animals have kept
Argentineans in suspense. From extraterrestrial beings to the
legendary "Chupacabras",  theories regarding the authors of the
attacks were numerous. Two weeks ago, SENASA issued a report
stating that the attacks had been carried out by a predator
known as the "red-muzzled mouse", which had undergone a mutation
and become carnivorous. In Leales, Maria del Carmen Reyes
claimed having seen a bright light, which was followed by the
discovery of the dead animals. The mystery continues...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002, S. Corrales, IHU
Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.






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                   Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:54:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:23:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone - Hatch


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:16:34 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:16:32 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Turkey Springs Arizona Gone

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Robert:

 >>If you could, please send a .jpg of the Turkey Springs area, but
 >>not a .bmp file as those are 20-50 times larger for the same
 >>image!

 >I zipped the 4 jpgs and sent them direct to your email address.

 >>Hopefully it will have long-lat lines across the image, and on
 >>either side of the the T.S. spot, and properly _numbered_ so I
 >>can interpolate some reasonably inaccurate coordinates instead
 >>of just guessing. Simple topo maps without these mini-
 >>meridians etc. have proven useless in the past, believe me I
 >>have tried that.

 >These don't, however I sent along the actual Long/Lat of the
 >spot I marked on the mapped. That spot should be regarded as a
 >general marker, rather then the exact location.

 >As you can see it is off the Rim and down the hill.

Hello, and once again thanks to Robert.

Between the maps and other resources, I have a good half-mile
bead on the location, all I needed for now.

Nobody wants a bunch of fools 4-wheeling all over a fire-damaged
forest looking for who-knows-what.

I adjusted coordinates on my database, so maps will show the
location for possible patterns or alignments of sightings in
that era.

The location matter is settled to my satisfaction.

Best!

- Larry








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                          Filer's Files #28 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:44:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:24:45 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #28 - 2002




FILER'S FILES #28-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
July 10, 2002,   Majorstar@aol.com
Webmaster: Chuck Warren  http://.www.filersfiles.com

THE UNIVERSE IS FULL OF LIFE AND WE'RE ALL RELATED.

UFO SIGHTINGS INCREASE:  Shuttle chased by diamonds over the
Atlantic, New Jersey orbs, North Carolina disc, Florida sphere,
Ohio sphere, Wisconsin orange lights, Kansas teardrop, Arizona
orange lights, California daylight disc,  Canada lights,
Argentina UFOs spotted near mutilations, Germany crop circles,
Italian Air Force Cases, Ukraine flash, Israel orbs at Wailing
Wall, and Korean abduction.  MUFON is on the move!  Did anyone
wake up in Japan with a Victoria Secret's night gown?

ROCHESTER -- Last weekend I attended the 2002 MUFON Conference
in New York and had a great time.  All the speakers were
excellent, but I was particularly excited about MUFON's new
leadership, direction of growth and attempts for cooperation
with Ufologists world wide.  UFO sightings are up and there is a
new and dynamic MUFON thanks to the Director John Schuessler.
My personnel highlight was having dinner with Betty Hill and
talking with so many experts such as Jeff Sainio.  She reminded
me we are also extraterrestrials traveling through space on our
own space ship Earth.  Betty Hill states, "I have met astronauts
from two planets and I can prove it."  She has been inside a
UFO, spotted numerous UFOs and photographed them.  She worked
with Air Force personnel from Pease Air Force Base, met
scientists, astronauts, and high ranking politicians from
numerous countries who all agreed we are being visited by UFOs
from space.  She even showed the dress she was wearing during
her abduction.  There were many excellent speakers at the MUFON
Conference, but the 83 year old lady captivated her audience and
me with her abduction story.  She could convince any jury in the
country she had been abducted by aliens.

John Schuessler presented me with a "Certificate of
Appreciation" to George Filer, "For helping to satisfy one of
MUFON's prime goals, the sharing of incoming UFO information.
He has accomplished this through his Filer's Files in the MUFON
UFO Journal and on the Internet."

It was agreed that MUFON personnel can send summaries of good
cases, to me to be placed in these files and the journal.
Director's Tom Sheets in Georgia, Bill Mc Neff in Minnesota,
Richard Mcvannel in Michigan already do so.  Other state
directors such as Bruce Widamen in Missouri and Earle Bennezet
Kentucky have agreed to send good cases also.  The Files are
read throughout the world and translated into several languages
and help increase MUFON journal subscriptions.

The SciFi Channel had representatives at the conference who
showed a sneak preview of Steven Spielberg's miniseries on UFO
abductions, entitled "Taken."  I thought the acting was good, it
had a good abduction storyline, and the special effects by Doug
Trumbull were excellent.  SciFi and MUFON will be working
together.  Bob Long and Jim Bouck should be congratulated for
putting on a great conference.

JAPAN AND PHILADELPHIA ABDUCTION MIX-UP

A Philadelphia abductee told David Jacob's she went to sleep
with her new Victoria Secret Night Gown and awoke the next
morning with a T-shirt believed to be from Takasaki, Japan
regarding running.  If the person in Japan with the Victoria
Secret' night gown can be found we can exchange.  The story that
happened about five years ago, indicates that our visitors can
make mistakes.  Furthermore, one craft may travel to different
parts of the world picking up and depositing people.  Timothy
Goode believes there is an alien base under the Pacific Ocean
not far from Japan.  There are frequent sightings of craft
entering and leaving the water.  Thanks to David Jacobs and
Timothy Goode who gave great presentations.  Dave felt we must
use the several thousand scientists and medical consultants who
have offered to help MUFON.  I would suggest we attempt to
locate the alien bases using all means available.  For example,
the shuttle regularly video tapes UFOs moving at speeds of
100,000 mph, much faster than a speeding bullet.  Toshie
Nakagawa from the Organization of UFO Research Japan and OUR-J
magazine has agreed to help with the search.

SHUTTLE CHASED BY DIAMONDS

Dr. Oren Swearingin reports that on Saturday evening, June 8,
2002, at about 5 :35 PM, CDT, as the shuttle was crossing the
Atlantic, and going into orbital sunset, heading for the coast
of Africa, the camera was looking back at the setting sun, as
they frequently do until the Earth was dark.  The atmosphere was
shining bluish white because of the backlighting from the sun in
a graceful arc with the Earth on the left screen and space on
the right.  When the camera zoomed out, the stars became visible
but one of them was strobing!  Of course, in space, with no
atmosphere, starlight is constant and unflickering so this was a
self-luminous object, a UFO!  In a few seconds, at the lower
right part of the screen, more UFOs appear, moving up toward the
left.  At first, all that can be seen are four bright lights
flying in a perfect four-sided diamond formation!  In a few more
seconds, you can see two more lights flanking the diamond --
sort of like outriggers!  Then, abruptly, the cameraman cuts
away--BUT, the image is still on the big monitor at Mission
Control, and visible still moving toward the upper left--and
THEN, a second formation appears at the bottom of the screen.
One light is even brighter than the diamond was!  It appears to
be two lights but they realized their mistake and they cut the
camera completely off, and go to a graphic instead!  The entire
sequence lasted for a very short time, but it was a very clear
picture -- not snowy as they so often are.  The sighting was
confirmed by other PROVE researchers.  Thanks to Dr. Swearingen,
manfrommars@webtv.net-

Editor's Note: This and other scenes will be shown in the Air
Victory Museum UFO exhibit in Medford, New Jersey.  The
beautiful Esen Sekerkarar from the Istanbul, Turkey's UFO Museum
has agreed to exchange data.  She gave a wonderful presentation
at the MUFON conference.

NEW JERSEY DISK LUMINOUS LIGHTS

FREEHOLD -- The witness was driving back from my boyfriend's
house at around 10:45 PM, when she noticed bright lights
hovering in the sky. "I thought it had to be a helicopter, since
I have never seen any other aircraft hover that way, but as I
drew closer I realized it was much too large."  I came up to a
stop sign and watched as the now evidently enormous aircraft
hovered for a while longer before gliding off over the trees. It
had many bright lights and looked like spacecraft right out of
ET. not all the lights were white but I can't clearly remember
the colors of the others, maybe red and green?  Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director,  NUFORC  http://.www.filersfiles.com

NORTH CAROLINA BLACK DISK SEEN IN BROAD DAYLIGHT I

WINSTON-SALEM -- On June 28, 2002, the family was grilling
outside on the deck at 7:00 PM, as a thunderstorm moved towards
them.  The witness reports, "As I looked up to look at the
clouds I looked directly at a black disk shaped object in the
sky."  At first, the object seemed to follow the direction of
the clouds, but after a couple of minutes it began to move ahead
of the clouds.  It continued this for a couple of minutes and
then started to move upward and back towards the clouds.  It
then seemed to move upward more and disappeared.  We were able
to look at the object through binoculars and say the it appeared
to be disk shaped and at one point my nephew saw it tilted on
it's side.  The object slowly disappeared in the clouds after
about ten minutes.  Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC

FLORIDA SPHERE CIRCULAR PATH

DEERFIELD BEACH -- The witness was going to his car when he
happened to look up and noticed a sphere of light moving above
the clouds in a circular pattern on June 24, 2001.  My cell
phone read 12:10 AM.  What struck me as irregular is that the
object illuminated the clouds below it as you would expect a
flood light to do.  But, a floodlight does this from the ground
up. This was occurring from above the clouds down to the ground.
There was no floodlight from the ground up that could be
illuminating the clouds in what at first was a circular motion.
I watched the object move repeatedly in a circular pattern for
about five minutes.  I was mesmerized that this object was not
any object that I've ever seen.  The sphere moved in a circular
motion, changed its path and began zigzagging.  I had to keep my
eyes carefully on the object because it was moving in and out
from the cloud cover at about 12,000 feet altitude for another
ten minutes.  There was an opening with no cloud cover and the
object would move into and out of the clouds illuminating the
area around itself and the clouds.

The object then changed its flight speed and slowed down and
then would accelerate and again slow down.  It was a white
sphere bigger than the moon illuminating the area around itself
with a tremendous amount of white light.  It continued to move
erratically changing altitude and descending.  It then stopped
for thirty seconds, the light went out and then the sphere lit
up with pure bright white light like a flash bulb.  The light
brightened for fifteen seconds creating fantastic acceleration
and departed, but I could still see the dark shape of the
outline of a sphere exactly in the same place and standing still
in the sky.  After five seconds, it zipped up in a southerly
direction.  It just flew away in a second at 12:30 AM.  Thanks
to NUFORC

OHIO TWO UFOs SIGHTED ON JULY 4TH

WARREN -- Blair writes, "I'd like to report two UFOs I saw, and
since I saw your reports on Rense I thought maybe you would
care.  The first UFO I saw was on July 4, 2002, at about 10:15
PM at Mosquito Lake.  It was a white orb like object and over
the course of ten minutes it went from the brightness of the
moon to nothing.  It was interesting though because I was
watching fireworks at the time and every couple seconds I'd
glance back to see if it was still there.  I was also noticing
some other people in the crowd starting to look.  I mentioned
the sighting to a friend and he also had seen something weird
ten miles from my location.  Maybe the UFO was watching the
fireworks?

CHAMPION -- The second UFO I saw was on July 5th, at 10:30 PM
that was a square shaped craft or parallelogram.  It's right
front light seemed to be the brightest and the other three
corner lights were of equal brightness as it flew directly over
three witnesses at about 3,500 feet.  It was very large and made
no sound.  Thanks to Blair

WISCONSIN ORANGE LIGHTS

MADISON -- UFOWisconsin reports that on July 2, 2002, at 10:30
PM, the witness caught a brief glimpse of three bright yellow /
orange lights in a perfect triangle streak south across the
clear sky almost straight overhead.  The witness says, "It took,
less than two seconds for these lights to move the entire length
of the sky.  I dismissed that it was a shooting star because
there were three lights moving in perfect triangular formation.
Ten minutes later, I saw the exact same formation of triangular
lights streak across the sky at the same speed."  and direction.
Thanks to UFOWisconsin
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2002_0702_dane.html

KANSAS TEARDROP FLIES BY AT 400 FEET

WICHITA -- Two of us were laying in the pool watching a large
cumulus cloud at 9:00 PM and noticed a UFO, flying due north at
100-200 mph.  The shape was an inverted cone about four feet in
diameter approx. 400' altitude, with no sound.  It flew straight
north at 100 to 200 mph and was gone in approximately one
minute.  It was probably 3 feet in diameter on the top and 5
feet in diameter at the bottom.  When it flew over it was
circular from the bottom.  It flew over the Wichita airport, but
did not make any noise and it wasn't a bird, balloon or plane.
I have a science education, and have worked for two aerospace
firms.  My girl friend and I are both familiar with birds and
air traffic.  Thanks to  NUFORC

ARIZONA GIANT FLYING TRIANGLE

PHOENIX -- The witness reports this sighting was very similar to
the famous 1997 sighting over Phoenix that he also saw.  The
Scottsdale resident says, "It was in the exact same area as the
last one."  I have a view of most of Phoenix and I was driving
home at 9:45 PM, on June 27, 2002, and noticed three very large
orange lights ten times the brightness and size of a commercial
aircraft above some cell phone towers.  I thought that a
mountain was on fire.  When I got home I told my girlfriend
about the fire and we went and looked and the fire was gone.  A
minute later two "fires" started back up followed by a third.
They were on for a couple of minutes and then quickly flickered
out.  Another minute later the three lights (obviously not a
fire anymore) appeared much higher.  We got binoculars out and
verified there was no mountain where these lights were.  We
observed this flickering and moving for another 15-20 minutes.
They moved behind Camelback Mountain and hovered there for at
least five minutes.  Using binoculars, we could see a shadow,
rotating that was 10 to 15 times the size of a 747 behind each
light.  We got in the car and drove to a higher vantage point
and observed that air traffic over Phoenix came to a standstill.
Sky Harbor Int'l Airport is one of the busiest in the country
and for fifteen minutes we observed no planes and no bright
lights which is very strange.  Then all of the sudden the sky
filled with planes with weird lights, a triangle shape, and
moved extremely fast without sound.  They appeared to be
patrolling and chasing the bright lights.  A bright light
appeared directly overhead and then disappeared as a possible
stealth fighter appeared behind it.  Thanks to Peter Davenport.

CALIFORNIA METALLIC SAUCER IN BROAD DAYLIGHT

GLENDALE -- On July 1, 2002, there was only one, and it sort of
came out of nowhere.  It was about ten, maybe twenty miles from
where I was. I was in a car wash station with my wife and niece
waiting for our car to come out then when I looked at the
mountain view, I saw this flying thing, shining from the sun
which appeared to look like a disc. It was somewhat round as the
sun's reflection had a gradient to it. It floated west as fast
as a helicopter although I didn't see any propellers or wings or
fins to identify it as a plane or chopper. It was certainly
metallic, maybe silver and it later disappeared into the canopy
of trees.  I pointed it out to my wife and she gasped and saw
it, my niece also saw it and couldn't believe what it was.
NUFORC

CALIFORNIA UFO IS A PEACH

New flattened looking Saturn white peaches are being sold on the
West Coast with shapes reminiscent of flying saucers with a Gray
Alien on the sides of the boxes that wears an evil smile.  You
can order your own UFO (Unique Fruit Orb)  NUFORC peaches from
ITO Packing Co., Inc. Reedley, CA.  See
http://www.cufon.org/special/UFO_peaches.jpg

CANADA BRIGHT LIGHTS IN LAKE ONTARIO

MISSISSAUGA -- On June 25, 2002, the witness reports, "I was
down by Lake Ontario with my wife at 8:30 PM, when we saw an
extremely bright amber light ten degrees above horizon.  It
turned on and off rapidly, then stayed on with another light
making twist and turning moves, sort of twisting and flickering.
Our view point when we saw these lights was such that the city
of Toronto was on the left of them.  I would put them six miles
off the coast and at a height of about 2500 to 3500 feet.  The
CN tower is a perfect reference for us as it is about 1800 feet
high.  They moved and flashed off and on for ten minutes.  Some
lights were in a triangle formation around the main light as
they came on.  On a count of twelve all four turned off at once.
Fifteen seconds later, there was a white and green flash to the
right of the main light.  The process repeated in a random
manner for over an hour.  The visibility is over 15 miles as we
could see the city and also the planes landing at the Island
airport.  When we got home we told the kids, they immediately
went to look using a telescope and binoculars.  "They are
telling me that planes are passing to the left and to the right,
but the lights when they turn on, are still in their same
location."  They turn off for five minutes and then pop back on.
Through the binoculars a vague lozenge shape is discernible.

Editor Notes: People in the Rochester area on the Southern banks
of Lake Ontario are also seeing the lights that appear to dive
into and come out of the lake indicating a possible base.

ARGENTINA UFOs SPOTTED BY CATTLEMAN NEAR MUTILATIONS

CARHUE -- Several residents" of Argentina's Buenos Aires
province, "claimed to have seen strange lights related to the
presence of UFOs.  Manuel Alesso and Raul Blengio, two rural
cattlemen owning property in the Paraje Cilley area saw lights
between 7:30 and 8:00 PM, I was touring the fields of Arroyo
Venado when I saw two lights to the northeast,' said Alesso.  He
added that he stopped his pickup truck and flashed his
headlights at the lights.  'The lights began to shine even
brighter and seemed to descend, which is why I went over to
where Raul Blengio was planting and told him to look.  The
lights were white, round, and gave off a sort of haze,' adding
that 'behind the light there was another, less shiny one.'"
"Raul Blengio stated that the lights moved slowly.  A third
witness accompanying them also saw the lights.  'I'm certain
they have something to do with the cattle mutilations,' he
added."

PATAGONES -- On Saturday, July 6, 2002, " A new unknown and
luminous object appeared over the Comarca, but this time the
strange object which changed colors, was seen by 25 local
residents occupying the 268 homes that make up the village of
Carmen de Patagones.  Faced with the strange light, the
villagers alerted each other and slowly emerged from their homes
and were stunned by the clarity with which the alleged UFO could
be seen.  The witnesses watched a UFO over their village for
thirty minutes.  An airliner passed overhead the UFO, which
vanished into the horizon following a zigzag pattern about 9:30
PM."

R=CDO CUARTO -- Researchers at the Universidad Nacional De Rio
Cuarto reiterated that the calf found mutilated yesterday in
Berrotar=E1n presented "clean incisions" in its hide, thus
discarding any attacks by predators.  They admitted "in
principle, the conclusions applied by SENASA cannot be applied,"
referring to the University of Tandil's report which fingered
the red-muzzled mouse (oxymycterus rufus) as the principal
culprit in the cattle mutilations.  Jaime Polop, a specialist in
Rodent Ecology for 24 years with the National University of Rio
Cuarto, stated that the presence of this type of mouse is
"minimal" in the southern provinces and expressed doubts
regarding the possibility that this animal is the key to
unlocking the nationwide mystery.  He declared that while the
red-muzzle mouse is omnivorous and feeds on vegetable and animal
organic matter, it is "very rare" that it should consume carrion
and the information from the University of Tandil is the first
we've received regarding this type of behavior by oxymycterus."
He said, "The oxymycterus has chisel-shaped teeth, and it is
impossible for that type of dentition to produce clean cuts on
animal hides.  It's bite is similar to any mouse chewing, which
would never be mistaken for a surgical implement."  He also
noted that the muzzled mouse "is not a predator, normally, when
a predator such as a fox begins [by eating] the entrails, it
continues to feed from the same open wound.  To find lesions on
the mouth, abdomen, and anus, and to see this pattern repeating
itself, draws my attention considerably," added Polop.

SAN PEDRO -- Meanwhile, another mutilated bovine, missing eyes
and genitals--characteristics similar to other finds in other
provinces--was discovered late yesterday in the town of San
Pedro, Department of Santa Rosa, 150 km from the provincial
seat. Thanks to Scott Corrales  and Gloria Coluchi Translation
(C) 2002.  Institute of Hispanic Ufology

Editor's Note: "It would take large numbers of super mice to
kill and mutilate 170 large animals with laser precision."  I
personally reject the University of Tandil and SENASA theory.  I
suggest they test the ground directly around the cattle
mutilations for meteorite dust and crystallization.  These would
indicate the presence of a UFOs.

ENGLAND NEW CROP CIRCLE FLOWER

STONEHENGE -- Peter Robbins revealed that a remarkable new crop
circle was found at Normanton Down long barrows, Wiltshire near
Stonehenge on July 4th.  Thanks to Peter Robbins Editor,
UFOcity.com.  Peter gave an excellent speech reviewing his book
"Left at Eastgate," that everyone should read.  Aliens made
contact with US and British personnel in England.  See
http://cropcircleconnector.com/2002/Normanton/Normanton2002a.

GERMAN POLICE CHASE UFO

L=DCBECK -- FarShores reports,  Two police officials believed at
first that it was an aircraft crashing. Polizeihauptmeister
Achim K=E4hler (44) and his colleague Dirk Sch=F6ning (39) were on
night patrol in Luebeck, when they saw a bright light racing
across the sky.  What was strange about it was that the fiery
object flew on and at such speed that it could not be caught by
the chasing police auto.  Was it a light aircraft, or a UFO?  A
restaurant worker in Canal Street, "I saw red fire," said
Salvatore Cairoli.  The object flew towards Travemuende, before
it turned off to the right and disappeared.  The operations
center immediately made inquiries with the air traffic control.
Thanks to Hamburger Morgenpost and FarShores.
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/index.htm.

GERMANY HAS MOST CROP CIRCLES IN 2002 -

Up to now there are more crop circles discovered in Germany than
in the phenomenon's motherland England.  With the latest
discoveries, Germany counts now at least 23 formations so far.
To find out more about all these formations please visit:
http://invisiblecircle.de/ser/d-archiv-2002.html

ITALIAN AIR FORCE RELEASES THE UFO CASE-LOG

ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH #361 -- As in every year, the General
Security Unit of the Italian Air Force General Staff has
responded to our request by releasing the usual list of reports
of unidentified flying objects (oggetti volanti non
identificati,  OVNI) sighted during the course of 2001, as
collected by the military.    As is routine by now, the list is
disappointing as far as the numbers are concerned at the only
government body responsible for the gathering of UFO data.
There were twelve sightings recorded last year, with three in
June and two in August; May and October; and one in March and
November), compared with a total of over 760 reports  logged at
the civilian Italian Center for UFO Studies (CISU).   Only one
includes a member of the military as a witness. See:
http://www.cisu.org/ovni2001.htm).

The August issue of the popular science monthly "Quark" is on
newsstands with the results of an opinion poll by the CIRM
Institute regarding what Italians think about extraterrestrial
life and UFOs.  The polling firm interviewed 1,136 Italians, 80%
of whom maintains  that other life forms exist in the Universe,
and 74% who say that science allows for it; of these, 44% holds
that possible extraterrestrials would  nonetheless live in
galaxies different from our own, and 60% maintains  that these
would be rather or very different from us,  while 28% retains
that they could be intelligent beings, with whom 38% believes
that we could live peacefully and 37% believes that we could
not.  And where do UFOs figure here?  They also asked whether
UFOs have a foundation in truth: 55% of those interviewed
responded "yes," and 38% answered "no."

A NEW BOOK BY ALFREDO LISSONI    MIR Publications have just
issued Alfredo Lissoni's: "UFO: i dossier del Vaticano" ("UFOs:
The Vatican Files").  The book covers UFO, pre-UFO and para-UFO
apparitions and phenomena reported in the Christian tradition
from the Middle Ages. Thanks to Gian Grassino; Maurizio Verga,
Giancarlo D'Alessandro, Paolo Fiorino, and Gildo Person=E8.
www.CISU.org/maglie.htm.www.upiar.com

UKRAINE MISSILE FLASH REPORTED BY ISRAELI PILOT

DNIPROPETROVSK -- On July 5, 2002, the pilot of an El Al Israel
Airlines flying a Tupolev 154 flight from Tel Aviv to Moscow
reported seeing a surface-to-air missile explosion as he flew
over Ukraine on Thursday, Israel's transport minister said on
Friday.  The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said Ukraine had not
conducted any missile launches since accidentally downing a
Russian airliner on a flight last October from Tel Aviv to
Novosibirsk in Siberia, killing 78 passengers and crew.  Israeli
Transport Minister Ephraim Sneh said the Israeli plane was never
in danger and voiced doubt it had come under attack.  Ukrainian
President Leonid Kuchma, called the suggestion that the incident
involved a Ukrainian missile "absurd."  Sneh said he had spoken
at length with the El Al pilot, whom he described as an
experienced combat veteran of the Israeli air force.  "There is
no doubt that he saw a missile that exploded in the air," Sneh
told Israeli Army Radio,  "Circumstances suggest it was not
launched at the El Al plane."  An Israeli source told NBC News
that the pilot and passengers could clearly see a missile and
flash. The source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that
the area is one of Ukraine's largest military grounds, where
surface to air missiles are known to be fired.  Reports of the
purported missile launch followed an attack at an El Al counter
at Los Angeles airport in which an Egyptian gunman killed two
people before security guards shot him dead.  The Associated
Press and Reuters contributed  to this report.
http://msnbc.com/news/776475.asp

EDITORS NOTE: The story is similar to Flight 800 where hundreds
reported seeing a flash of an apparent missile launch.

ISRAEL VIDEO CAMERA SEES ORBS NEAR WAILING WALL

JERUSALEM -- Charlette LeFevre writes, "Orbs seen on camera to
the right of the Wailing Wall on July 6, 2002, seem to have
visual features almost like a ghost."  I believe these are not
sunspots because the first and last frames are 20 minutes apart
and the lights are the same.  Note the difference in shadows
which would also have effected the location of a sunspot which
is sharp and distinct.  Note also the nearby light pole lights
are not even on as it is morning.  The orbs are next to the
women's area in front of the building."  Thanks to Charlette
LeFevre and Philip Lipson Seattle UFO/Paranormal Group see
http://www.aish.com/wallcam/

SOUTH KOREA VISITATION EXPERIENCE AND OTHER EVENTS

KUNSAN AIR BASE -- The witness writes, in January 1979, I was
sleeping in the U.S. Air Force off base housing compound called
Silvertown.  My wife and I were in bed and there was no light in
the one roomed apartment.  I saw a large dark figure standing in
the door wearing a dark gray hooded cloak or cape.  It started
approaching me gliding across the floor.  I tried to call for my
wife and back away from it but I couldn't move or make a sound.
It moved towards me 3 or 4 feet, but I can't recall it ever
actually reaching me.  My struggle to move seemed to go on for
several minutes with my heart pounding in terror.  Suddenly, I
managed to make a whisper/squeak of a noise, when I tried again
my voice returned.  Finally, I was calling my wife's name. I
remember waking up on the floor.  I could now move and dragged
myself to our bed to touch my wife and everything was back to
normal, if you can call it that.  The stranger was gone but the
room was darker and it was harder to see.  I was still on the
floor and my wife was sleeping soundly on the bed.

While stationed at RAF Lakenheath in England between 1982-83, I
left the shop one night to go to another building.  I was in a
direct line of sight to the door that I was heading for and
suddenly, I ran into a heating fuel containment wall some 8 to
10 feet off the original path I was on.  I don't know how I
missed the door, but it did left scratches on my shins.  Later,
when I left the shop to catch the bus home at 12:50 AM for a one
minute walk to the bus stop.  It took thirty minutes.  One
morning I awoke to find myself inside my closet.

One day after I had begun working for the University of
Arkansas, I experienced an incident where I seemed to gain time.
I checked the time when I entered Highway 412 and began the 20
minute drive to Siloam.  As I entered the City limits, I checked
the time again and found that I had made the trip in 10 minutes.
I have the standard "Scoop" mark on my left leg that I've heard
and read about.  It's been there as long as I can remember. And
in 1999, I noticed that there was a scoop mark on the top of my
left hand.  In the sixth grade, I had large scabs in my
nostrils, that my grandmother removed with hair pins. Thanks to
Peter Davenport  NUFORC

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN HIRING A REAL ESTATE AGENT! Learn how
you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs.  To
get a free copy of this report e-mail me at  Majorstar@aol.com

THE UFO STORE -- Your purchases at the UFO Store will help pay
for the UFO display at the Air Victory Museum.  Go for the
widest selection of UFO books, CDs, and videos on the net at:
http://www.filersfiles.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL.  A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com.  Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post the complete files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue that the item appeared.  These reports
and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.
Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential.  CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer












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   Jul > Jul 10

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett

From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:39:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:31:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <Ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:13:58 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39



This head-banging mediaeval schoolman=92s approach to the
examination of conceptual interstices is getting on my nerves.
It is the consideration of how many angels can stand on the
point of a pin all over again. These iron-gray pelican minds
locked into the Kafkaresque minutiae of the mystical initiation
ceremonies of the great rational evidence game dare not on pain
of death, use a symbol a metaphor, an allusion, and the style of
the analysis (as it is called) is that of an insurance claim.
John Rimmer himself goes round out in ever-decreasing circles
trying to catch Jerry Clark out on some point of minute case
detail that Clark might just have forgotten, neglected, ignored,
or perhaps like any human being, he might have been on occasion
misinformed or understandably confused about.

Of course why magonian pelicans tempt Clark in particular out to
battle is because he is not only one of the top five players in
Ufology, his brilliant Encyclopedia shows the British psycho-
  social theory to be comically ridiculous. Therefore if in some
way the magonians can catch Clark out, show him to be in some
way incompetent or mistaken in some important aspect of Ufology,
then they will have done some great harm, to Ufology itself. I
use the capital letter because the work of the Woods, Friedman,
Jacobs and Clark alone amongst many others has established
Ufology as a proper academic discipline.

But there is, I am afraid, a far more sinister side to the
aggressive pelican attack. Magonians, despite their protests,
are not out for truth, they are out for reputations. I am
allowed to say that because the current Magonia editorial
contains an attack on myself as the author of my recently
published =93Looking for Orthon=94. Clark=92s Encyclopedia, a work of
the very highest academic distinction is rather like the great
Encyclopedia of Tlon (see my previous Breakout of the Fictions
in the List) is to the land of Uqbar. Borges would agree:
destroy the Encyclopedia and you destroy the culture and the
country (see my recent article Deconstructing the B29 on Philip
Mantle=92s new web site). I understand that MUFON has had some
problems in this respect. Relentless magonian attempts to trash
Ufology continue, and are now international. Recently, a hands-
  across-the-sea attempt by sceptics to trash the Betty/Barney
Hill experience at the last FT Unconvention was only avoided by
personal circumstance.

The main problem concerning the UFO debate is cultural. Most
English magonian pelicans are indeed the very last remnants of
the Victorian lower middle class. As traders of the last of the
old city and Empire merchant class they are terrified and
obsessed by the fear of fraud as regards in particular such
things at the MJ-12 papers. Traditionally, this classic English
fear has been grafted onto an equally traditional English fear
and hatred of intellectuals, almost all of whom (they assume)
come from south of Calais, or even more disreputable geographies
with even more unpronounceable names.To a certain extent, one
sympathizes with these stout great-grandsons of the solid
Victorian engineering generations. With their all moral
authority gone from the present world in terms of massively
corrupt corporate finance, and with the emergence of the
postmodern age they cannot understand, magonian pelicans
represent an isolated class on the fringe of extinction. To
these people the UFO must represent the final crisis of anarchy,
with the smell of cultural corpses everywhere, and one must
agree with them on the stench. Since I understand the current
editorial of Magonia magazine is an attempt to character
assassinate me, I feel qualified to comment on the anti-
  Americanism of John Rimmer=92s 2 i/c. and his opinion that
American Ufologists are thumb-sucking infants. To those who
might not know the context of such statements, or indeed Magonia
magazine itself, let me tell them that this thin journal is a
privately published two-stapled duplicated thing, fortunately of
such popularity that it cannot reach a public news stand. As a
publication, it is responsible for misinformation,
disinformation, misrepresentation, intellectual molestation, the
very worst side of the leafy, dumb, reactionary and quaint and
inquisitorial English character. Most magonians all look as if
they had emerged from pages of Edward Lear, and they view the
UFO as they view a Peasants Revolt.

Magonia magazine is hence the representation of extreme British
reaction in terms of radical thought and ideas. It hates
fantasies and all inspirations; it hates intuition, enterprise,
excitement, and especially that thrilling madness that is true
anarchic creativity. These last genetic remnants of traditional
English Puritans would shut down the UFO as their forefathers
shut the theatres. Their influence on the Fortean Times has been
deadly, within and without. A well-known writer got up at the
last Fortean Uncon and made a single pompous speech violently
anti-American in tone. That was his single contribution to the
evening=92s debate. Pelicans, aided and abetted by those who still
have the damned nerve to call themselves Forteans, view the UFO
as a piece of unadulterated America cheese-cake whoredom. It is
indeed sad to report to America that Magonia magazine is truly
the dead part of what was once the great English genius now
descended to small time, small town petite-bourgeois Thatcherism
in almost pathological concentration.

The UFO and all things magical like it also violate the work-
  ethic. It would never do to admit that there are mysterious
things in the universe that do not toil, labour, that there are
things neither prudent, and things not even cautious, politic,
nor polite, never mind things not even concerned with input
equaling output.

The constant niggling about frauds and hoaxes by pelicans is
thus typical of a lower-middle class trading spectrum. Most
magonians are lawyers, town solicitors straight from the novels
of Arnold Bennett and J.B. Priestley.

Jerry Clark is right. These still think that they rule the old
Empire, yet now they cannot run a railway or make a decent rifle
for their tiny army, whose recent operations in Afghanistan
could have been straight from a Carry On film.

The best that can be said for these irritating pelican imps and
gadflies is that they represent the guardians of English nuclear
Protestantism who pop out like figures from a cuckoo landscape
every time the firmament shakes and the native volk is
threatened.

Most pelicans (even the young of the brood) are pre-1960s folk,
pre-New Age thinking, and almost completely ignorant of the
postmodern ages of media, information, chaos-theory, and fuzzy
thinking. How comparatively young folk could be associated with
its Victorian station-master=92s pelican approach to all things
Fortean is an occult mystery in itself. Pelicanism rejects
mysticism, metaphysics, postmodernism, the occult, the esoteric,
and anything at all that could be called spiritual, abstract,
teleological, profoundly emotional, truly mysterious, and
especially all things New Age. Hence the idea of the =93psycho-
  social=94 which means that all strange ideas beyond the mediocre,
the conventional, the mundane and the =93factual=94 are mirrors of
personal mental maladjustment, confusions, lies or a combination
of all these things.

As such, all pelicans dine on that worn-thin gruel called
Englishness in a country that, unlike the United States, is most
unfortunate in not have a revolutionary constitution.

Under the guise of liberalism, toleration and democratic
=93objectivity=94, pelicans have been instrumental in causing the
removal of all Ufological material from the pages of the Fortean
Times. The editor of Magonia himself appeared on the Megapanel
at the end of the recent Fortean Times Unconvention though he
was not a speaker at that Unconvention.

He was presumably there by invitation of the Fortean Times
Editors, though who proposed the theme The Death of Ufology is
anybody's guess. English sceptics, who after all are the new
Puritans hate America if only because American invented
happiness. History had always been hell prior to the formation
of modern American capitalist society, with all its faults.
Britain had never heard of such a thing as happiness prior to
the 1960s, and are still very wary of such a things as joy,
freedom, and especially all things transcendental, as witnessed
by every single post of John Rimmer. As such the English still
look on pure enjoyment as warily as the dirt-poor handle a Kit
Kat bar in a Palestinian refugee camp.

As such, Magonia magazine is representative of poverty of
thought, and meanness in enterprise. An Ebenezer Scrooge spirit
prevails throughout =96 you shall not, will not, cannot escape
from the old iron masters of the Industrial Revolution. Being
the very essence of very English bourgeois intellectual
conservativism, Magonia magazine is representative of Great
Britain=92s decline and fall.

How the young could identify with this gray Dickensian drivel I
do not know. It represents the impoverished landscape of dead
clay that is the contemporary English sceptical imagination. The
magazine is as plain as a pair of Anglican gaiters, about as
sexy as an equally ancient dog biscuit, and the poverty stricken
grimness of its English sceptical imagination smacks of native
English food, fit only for prison-ships, public-schools,
barracks, and scraps thrown to chained lunatics in Bedlam.

In Magonia magazine we hear the constant cry of =93it is all in
the Imagination=94.

A warning to Believers: listen closely and the sound of faggots
being piled up on the cobbled squares of old market towns can be
heard.

For make no mistake about it, here be UFO inquisitors, and all
heretics must burn, whether they be folklore societies, New Age
organizations, or UFO groups. The =93reality=94 magonian pelicans so
blithely refer like trusting mental infants is in Fortean terms
proper, a dreadfully ragged and pock-marked thing, a thing
blasted and holed, a scandalous and fraudulent box of tricks,
corrupt beyond all equally corrupt =93real=94 human perception.

Let those who think I am being unfair know this: Magonians are
dangerous plotters. Under the disguise of a gleeful teasing of
Jerry Clark over a single case, is their covert agenda of
smashing all elements of Ufological belief. I say unto all you
Americans: beware the nice Englishman.

In his last days as in the last days of Rome, the only thing he
is any good at is plotting.

I last saw Rimmer some six weeks ago at the Fortean
Unconvention. He sat on stage scowling at me, accompanied by
such luminaries as the baling-wire twins Dave and Doug (what an
act!), who every summer for nearly twenty years now have forged
corn circles with their rabbit gloves, snow shoes, and dog-
bollock ferret-protectors. Nothing but Ufology looks upon such a
wide empyrean. Rimmer is far too sensible, grown-up and well
adjusted for a magical world. I wonder if when young (if he was
ever young) he chanced across a female face that utterly broke
his days and his woeful certainties to pieces, as was Lee Harvey
Oswald=92s almost-days and even weaker certainties broken into
pieces, never to be put back together into the time-frame his
schoolmasters told him about? Like Prime Minister Blair and
Klass, Rimmer he has got into the closed loops of endless denial
locks, and he is as automated as a washing machine. To break
this lock, I have made arrangements for him to fall in love with
a river goddess, and I am winging one towards him in the form of
my new book, Politics Of The Imagination. John, this book will
change your life. No dour English rationalist can withstand
stand Her affections. She, together with the spirits of Blake
and Coleridge will banish all elements of Puritanical
Utilitarianism within yourself and your lusty following of half-
baked English ledger clerks. She will come, and your lost youth
will be back.

Mystical paths will beckon: the Path to Rome, the path to
Glastonbury, or the path to Politics of the Imagination.

Many will leave you as you take the path to Ufological
salvation. But have faith -you can yet be saved.

Trust the goddess.

  As you requested, Politics of the Imagination is on its way to
you. As it is intellectual eroticism of an Olympian order, it
comes in a plain envelope, and the rules of parental guidance
should be applied.

May you submit within the enfolding wings of Her enchantment.
May Her magical heat of midsummer unfreeze your Cromwellian
Imagination.

This is the Big Summer

Prepare!










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   Jul > Jul 11

               Sri Lankan UFOs Confirmed By Team Of Observers

From: Chris Evers <chrishufos@hufos1.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:06:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:58:49 -0400
Subject:  Sri Lankan UFOs Confirmed By Team Of Observers



This evening whilst surfing the web and reading news on the
Ananova web news service, I came across this interesting report.

Are there any members of the List from Sri Lanka who can perhaps
elaborate more on this?

-----

Source Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_622244.html


Sri Lankan scientists say UFOs reported by villagers are being
confirmed by a team of observers.

Hundreds of people in north central Sri Lanka have reported
seeing a blue-white light several times over the past few weeks.

A mysterious blue ball was first seen over the historical ruins
of Dimbulagala which date to the first century AD.

Now a team which travelled to the area has seen the UFO on three
days, reports Professor Chandana Jayaratne, an astrophysicist at
the University of Colombo.

They say the V-shaped beam of light seemingly travels at high-
speed between locations and makes a buzzing noise similar to a
bee.

Professor Chandana told the Daily News: "These sightings have
been confirmed by a group of keen observers."

An unnamed member of the observing party said: "More than 100
villagers have seen the UFO. In general we cannot consider these
stories as being fabricated. The light beam unlike any other we
have seen before... rotated, suddenly disappeared and
reappeared a few seconds later from a place 300 to 400 metres
away from the place it was initially seen.

"We camped near the Parakrama Samudraya. Dense jungle stretched
out to the far end and the light beam came from the jungle.
Therefore, we could not go out to investigate. Out of our
preliminary investigations it turned out to be an object capable
of emitting 'V' shaped beam of light of intense illumination.

"The villagers including an Advanced Level student told us the
flying object is capable of moving at a very high velocity and
when it is travelling at a lower height it made a sound similar
to a sound made by a bee. And it could change its direction to
avoid colliding with trees. For three consecutive days we
observed the same UFO."

Story filed: 16:39 Thursday 4th July 2002






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   Jul > Jul 11

                          Secrecy News -- 07/10/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:41:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:01:35 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/10/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 61
July 10, 2002


**      INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFO
**      HOMELAND SECURITY AND FOIA
**      NEW CRS REPORTS ON MISSILE PROLIFERATION, DEFENSE
**      INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT ABROAD


INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFO

The Department of Energy yesterday published its latest
quarterly report to Congress on classified nuclear weapons
information that has been inadvertently disclosed through
declassification of historical records.

Out of approximately 2 million pages of publicly available
declassified records that were examined between November 2001
and February 2002, DOE reviewers found 239 pages of classified
information.

The most common revelation was "nuclear weapon storage
locations" from several decades ago, information that is
normally of minimal sensitivity.  Other documents contained
classified data on topics such as "thermonuclear weapon design
or function" and "interface between nuclear weapon and delivery
system."

An assessment of what damage, if any, might have resulted from
the disclosures was not made available.  The inadvertently
disclosed records were removed from public access.

See the "Sixth Report on Inadvertent Releases of Restricted Data
and Formerly Restricted Data under Executive Order 12958
(Deleted Version)," dated February 2002 and released yesterday,
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent6.html


Homeland Security And Foia

The Bush Administration's Proposal For A Department Of Homeland
Security Includes An Exemption From The Freedom Of Information Act
For Certain Critical Infrastructure Information Provided To The
Department By Private Industry.  In Testimony Before A House
Subcommittee Yesterday, David Sobel Of The Electronic Privacy
Information Center Argued Against That Idea.

"Rather Than Seeking Ways To Hide Information, Congress Should
Consider Approaches That Would Make As Much Information As Possible
Available To The Public, Consistent With The Legitimate Interests Of
The Private Sector," Said Mr. Sobel.  "This Is Particularly Critical
In The Context Of The New Department, Which Will Assume An
Unprecedented Range Of Responsibilities Involving Public Safety."

See his July 9 testimony here:

http://www.epic.org/security/infowar/07_02_testimony.html


NEW CRS REPORTS ON MISSILE PROLIFERATION, DEFENSE

Recent releases from the Congressional Research Service
concerning missile proliferation, missile defense and related
issues include these:

"Cruise Missile Proliferation," by Christopher Bolkcom and Sharon
Squassoni, July 3:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RS21252.pdf

"National Missile Defense: Russia's Reaction," by Amy F. Woolf,
updated June 14, 2002:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RL30967.pdf

"Nuclear Nonproliferation Issues," by Carl E. Behrens, updated May 10,
2002:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/IB10091.pdf


INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT ABROAD

The Geneva Centre for Democratic Control of Armed Forces (DCAF)
has announced a workshop on "Democratic and Parliamentary
Oversight of Intelligence Services" to be held in Geneva,
Switzerland on October 3-5, 2002.

"Democratic control is a particularly challenging task when it
comes to intelligence agencies," notes the workshop prospectus.
  "There is a legitimate requirement of secrecy, that is, for
restricting details of the operations of intelligence agencies.
This imperative for secrecy, however, can be abused and may lead
to inefficiency, unauthorised actions, or the misuse or
politicisation of intelligence agencies....  This workshop will
attempt to examine the many challenges of implementing effective
democratic and parliamentary oversight of the intelligence
sector."

More information on the workshop will become available through
the DCAF web site:

http://www.dcaf.ch/index.htm

For the first time, a subcommittee of the European Parliament
will be granted access to classified information on a regular
basis, enabling Parliamentarians to exercise enhanced oversight
of European Union secret military and intelligence programs.

See "Parlamentarische Kontrolle fuer EU-Geheimdienste" in the July 8
Der Spiegel here:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/0,1518,204188,00.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news


OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Jul > Jul 11

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:33:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:04:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:07:30 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:17:22 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >>That's an amusing thought. People on deck were talking about a
 >>non event because Baruna really never saw a UFO but actually
 >>hoaxed the picture. So obviously the people on deck didn't see
 >>it... but they were talking about it anyway..... Hmmm... perhaps
 >>this sighting was a mass delusion? Everyone thought they saw
 >>what Baruna photographed? Of course, they wouldn't know what he
 >>photographed until after his photos were developed.

 >>That must be it!

 >>They started talking about what they all had seen after they saw
 >>Baruna's photo and the executive officer heard them talking
 >>about how they all saw what Baruna photographed. (any
 >>explanation is better than none)

 >Bruce,

 >Congratulations! You've finally mastered it. It's called Pelican
 >Logic. You now, officially, have the brain of a bird.>

 >Best wishes for your new career in ornithological ufology,

Thank you, Jerry. I knew at the heart of my bottom that
something worthwhile would come out of this. Having achieved
full status of Order of the Pelican I can now utilize my skills
to dispense with all other UFO sightings and reduce ufology to
rubble.

PJK will be proud of me.

And so will the pelicans.

I just hope that when the pelicans fly overhead they won't drop
anything.








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:40:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:06:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:26 -0700

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >><snip>

 >>>Hmmmm... OK, folks out there... how many multiple witness cases
 >>>can we cite where the witnesses DID come forward? I have some
 >>>listed at my wenb site http://brumac.8k.com.

 >>>(For convenience limit yourself to 5 per respondent. After all,
 >>>it only takes one!).

 >>Westchester County/Hudson Valley

 >This is many sightings. Pick one (the day the object traveled
 >along the Taconic River Parkway, for example)

OK, that one.

 >>Santiago, Chile (witnessed by millions?)

 >Be more specific

I wish I could. It was one that Antonio Huneeus told me about
when he stayed at my house - brought out newspaper clippings and
the like. Might have taken place in the early eighties. Daylight
disk, very high altitude, caught by a live TV camera and
broadcast to the entire country. So there's a MILLION witnesses!

 >>Washington DC 1952

 >it was all temperature inversion they say (hahahah... see 1952
 >YEAR OF THE UFO at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com

 >But more seriously, I'm not certain there was a multiple witness
 >sighting of the same object/light... although there were
 >multiple witness sightings of the radar targets

 >>Exeter, NH
 >Good

 >>Belgium 1990-91

 >BE specific

Wasn't there a flap around that time, with multiple independent
reports of triangles, many caught on radar? I can't recall any
specific instances, so we'll abandon that one and substitute
Mansfield, Ohio.

 >>(correct me if any of these have been satisfactorily explained
 >>during my absence from the field)

 >>Incidentally, I once asked Robert Scheaffer at a UFO conference,
 >>what would constitute evidence (not necessarily proof) that
 >>would turn a CSICOP skeptic's head, and cause him call for
 >>serious investigation of a case? His words ring in my head to
 >>this day: "Multiple independent photographs of the same
 >>anomalous object." Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 >Seems to me there was a German case some ears back that involved
 >multiple videos of some strangely moving bright lights high in
 >the daylight sky. Name and date of the even escapes me.

Actually I was thinking of Hudson Valley. The same object
videotaped by the Pozzuolis, or one exactly like it, was
photographed a couple of days later by a man up-Hudson from
them.  Scheaffer didn't say they had to be exactly contemporary.

==JJS==







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   Jul > Jul 11

                Roswell Cover-Up In Spielberg Series 'Taken'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:20:50 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:12:23 -0400
Subject: Roswell Cover-Up In Spielberg Series 'Taken'


Source: SCI FI Channel

http://www.scifi.com/taken/story/

Trailer links on the page.

Stig

***

Steven Spielberg Presents

'Taken'

Coming December 2002

**

- THE STORY -

A 50-Year Epic Tale Told Over 10 Nights

*

Taken is an epic saga that weaves together the stories of three
families over multiple generations =97 and their crucial roles in
the history of alien abductions. Set against the backdrop of
actual historical events, Taken creates a powerfully emotional
and evocative tale of mankind's encounters with
extraterrestrials.

The story begins with Russell Keys, an American WWII pilot who
is dying of a bullet wound while his plane spirals down into
enemy territory. Blue lights on the horizon interrupt his
plane's descent - and some time later he and his squadron find
themselves mysteriously whole and healed, on safe ground with
absolutely no memory of how they got there. Only years later, as
each member of the squadron dies inexplicably, does Russell
understand that his life has been forever altered by his first
alien encounter. Haunted, he searches for answers to his
unfolding memories, only to realize he is powerless to prevent
his son and subsequent generations from also becoming abductees.

When the 1947 crash of a UFO near Roswell, N.M., occurs a few
years after Russell's first encounter, U.S. military man Owen
Crawford leverages his knowledge to become a major player in the
subsequent cover-up and secret government investigation of the
E.T. presence. This begins a decades-long effort by the Crawford
family to use the government's investigations to secure their
own powerful legacy =97 and to stop anyone who gets in their way.

Finally, shortly after the Roswell crash, a chance encounter
with a wounded man nearby sets off its own strange chain of
events. Sally Clarke is a lonely woman who unexpectedly finds
love in the arms of a stranger. Despite Sally's conviction that
she has interacted with something not of this world, the other
members of the Clarke family are unconvinced, even after she
bears a son, Jacob, who manifests remarkable intuitive powers.
Skepticism eventually evolves into obsessive belief, but too
late to save the family from being pulled deeper into the secret
designs of both the government and the extraterrestrial
presence.

The grand scale of these three families' tale, as told through
the voice of Russell's 10-year-old great-granddaughter, Allie
Keys, explores generations of extraterrestrial encounters
beginning in the skies over Germany during the Second World War
to the modern tales of abduction that include the 1977 release
of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. As we reach the present
day, the decades of secrets unravel =97 and all three families
must come together to unlock the awe-inspiring mysteries of
being 'Taken'.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                 Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:35:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:13:42 -0400
Subject: Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles


Source: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_623751.html?menu=3Dnews.scienceanddisco=
very.phenomena

Stig

***

Thunderstorms may have caused crop circles

**

Meteorologists are investigating whether fierce thunderstorms
caused crop circles in parts of Canada.

Environment Canada officials say swirling vortices of air or
downbursts may be behind circles in fields in New Brunswick and
Prince Edward Island.

The severe weather on Thursday and Friday also uprooted hundreds
of trees and damaged a number of buildings.

Canada.com reports that Environment Canada's Mike Campbell said:
"What we believe is a lot of air had rushed out of the
thunderstorm and when it hit the ground it swirled around. It
just whipped up the crops and flattened them into circles."

Derrick Blacquiere, a resident of Prince Edward Island, says he
saw several funnel clouds create deep depressions in a
neighbour's wheat field, flattening grain into circular patterns
up to six metres in diameter.

Mr Campbell says crop circles caused by sudden bursts of wind
have been reported in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and in the
Western provinces.

The most recent was reported last year in Port Hillford on the
eastern shore of Nova Scotia.

**

Story filed: 15:45 Sunday 7th July 2002

Copyright =A9 2002 Ananova Ltd








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   Jul > Jul 11

                    Mutilated Cow In Chascomus Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:36:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:35:05 -0400
Subject: Mutilated Cow In Chascomus Argentina


SOURCE: Diario "El Fuerte" (Chascom=FAs, Prov. of Buenos Aires)

DATE: July 11, 2002

**BREAKING NEWS**



In the Don Cipriano area
Another Mutilated Cow Discovered

The subject of cattle mutilations appeared to have come to an
end following certain professional explanations, but a new case
has become known in our district.

This one occured in the "El Taray" field owned by Felipe
Sallenave, located on the road to Vado near Public School 19 in
the town of Don Cipriano, where the foreman, Fernando Ulloa
witnessed to his amazement that a pregnant cow that was in
perfect health the day before, showing no signs or symptoms of
any malady, was found dead the next morning with signs of
mutilation.

The specimen was a half-breed Aberdeen Angus and Hereford. It
was missing its ears, part of the jaw, tongue, one of its eyes
and the nipples on the udders had been shorn off. Part of the
rectum was also missing.

It was learned that the incisions observed were similar to the
ones seen in similar events occurred in other provinces. The
pasture field's owner does not consider it possible for the oft-
mentioned rodents to have been involved in the act, confirming
that he made no police report on the event since he didn't
consider it proper (sic). He further explained that access to
the field was rather complicated giveng the poor condition of
the roads.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002, Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi










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   Jul > Jul 11

                    Mutilated Dog In Catamarca Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:27:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:36:29 -0400
Subject: Mutilated Dog In Catamarca Argentina



SOURCE: Diario "El Ancasti" (Catamarca, Argentina)
DATE: July 10, 2002

MUTILATED DOG FOUND IN CATAMARCA


HIGH STRANGENESS: Photo of the animal that was virtually
butchered. It was found in a backyard.

A large mixed-breed dog was found dead yesterday morning in by
its owner in their dwelling's enclosed back yard. The animal is
missing its tongue, eyes, trachea, aorta, part of its
extremities and most of its skin, which appears to have been
sheared off by a sharp object rather than torn. There were no
signs of blood in the area.

=================
Translation (C)2002. IHU.
Special thanks to G. Coluchi








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   Jul > Jul 11

                        Argentine Animal Mutilations?

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:09:53 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:08:30 -0400
Subject: Argentine Animal Mutilations?


Regarding the recent episodes of animal mutilations in
Argentina, where two technical reports have explained the events
in prosaic terms. In this context I suggest the audience to read
the 'Conclusions and Recommendations' chapter of the FBI report
prepared in 1980 by Kenneth Rommel, after a one-year
investigation in the New Mexico state ("Operation Animal
Mutilation").

It is Chapter 6, which can be downloaded in the following link:

www.parascope.com/articles/0597/romindex.htm


Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos
www.anomalia.org








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   Jul > Jul 11

                     For The Record: Animal Mutilations

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:07:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:07:34 -0400
Subject: For The Record: Animal Mutilations

Date: 08-24-94 (18:31) Number: 881 of 923 (Refer# NONE)
To: ALL
From: TEXJE@VAXB.HERIOT-WATT.AC.UK, MR JAMES EASTON
Subj: Cattle Mutilations
Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: U-AltParaUFO (5163)Read Type: READING ALL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 01:46:00 BST
From: MR JAMES EASTON <TEXJE@VAXB.HERIOT-WATT.AC.UK>


Cattle Mutilations
__________________

Regarding -->

 >Date:Wed, 17 Aug 1994 21:35:00 GMT
 >From:Jim Shaffer <Jim.Shaffer@P0.F4.N1012.Z9.FIDONET.ORG>

 >I don't know... I was thinking that maybe the power lines attract
 >whatever's responsible for the mutilations.

Hi Jim,

Maybe you'll find the following of interest.

________________________________________________________________


Firstly, I apologise for the length of this posting. I have
attempted to summarise events as far as possible without
deleting any relevant text.

Whilst recently accessing UFONet I ran a text search for any
"mutilation" files. The first one I came upon was extremely
interesting.

It offered a natural explanation, backed with evidence, for this
phenomenon.

The file is as follows:

________________________________________________________________

Date: 04-1993 (18:00) Number: 284 of 313
To: ALL  Refer#: NONE
From: DON ALLEN  Read: (N/A)
Subj: JUST NOT HAPPENINGStatus: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: INFO.PARANET (20) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)
* Forwarded from "SPACE_LINK"
* Originally by Mike Christol
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 14 Apr 1993, 22:29

CHIEF INVESTIGATOR SAYS CATTLE MUTILATIONS ARE "JUST NOT HAPPENING"
The Weekly Post, March 4, 1993
By Stephen Smith


DeKalb County Chief Investigator Mike James said in an interview this
week that stories of strange mutilations of cattle in the last few months
are unfounded, and that authorities have no evidence of any mutilation
cases.

"This thing has really gotten blown out of proportion," James said.
"It's just not happening in this county."

As late as last week, James was called out to a Sylvania farm to
investigate a cow that was found dead by a farmer. A veterinarian
examined the animal and concluded that it had died of nautral causes and
been eaten on by predators.

"It was just a dead cow eaten on by coyotes, " James said of the
Slyvania animal. "Our department has had no confirmed cases of a cattle
mutilation. We haven't, the Alabama Cattlemen's Association hasn't, the
State Department of Agriculture hasn't and the state veterinarian hasn't."

James also stessed that he could speak only for those incidents which
have been reported to the Sheriff's Office, adding that every case should
be referred there. "It is our responsibility," he said, "because killing
an animal like that is a felony crime, and we do all felony investigations
in the county, except for Fort Payne."

However, James said that no criminal mischief has been involved in any
of the cases his department has seen. "Grass tetany is bad right now,"
he said, "and a lot of animals are dying from it."

As far as the many theories being offered for the deaths, James just
wishes that the publicity would go away. "I've heard government cover-
up, I've heard UFOs," he said. "It amounts to a great deal of publicity
about something that's not happening.

"We're one step from someone getting hurt," James continued. "I've
got people trying to buy high-powered guns, saying they're gonna shoot
helicopters out of the air. I've got a friend in real estate who owns a
helicopter, and he won't fly over this area."

At his request, James was faxed a copy of a magazine article from the
Stockyards Division of the Alabama Department of Agriculture. In that
article, author David Rorvik discusses a scientific study conducted by
ex-FBI agent, Kenneth Rommell, Jr. In the study, backed by a government
grant, Rommel concluded that all the mutilations occuring out West were
nothing more than predators.

Also, according to the article, an Arkansas sheriff set up an
experiment which viewed the body of a calf known to die of natural causes
for a 30-hour period. Officers watched the carcass by night through a
Starlite scope, a military intelligence device, and took pictures to
document what they saw.At the end of 30 hours, the article quotes the
sheriff as saying, "We had us a classic case."

"First we observed what any pathologist will tell you happens after an
animal dies," the sheriff is quoted. "The tongue protrudes and lies
right out there on the ground, the anus inverts and sticks out three or
four inches. Then the predators and scavengers come along and eat the
parts that protrude, the soft, easy-to-get-at parts: the tongue, the
genitals, the udder if it's a female, and the anus.

"We saw all of this," the article continues.
"Then, as the animal gets colder, the tongue, or what's left of it,
retracts back into the mouth so it looks like it was cut off way down
deep. The anus retracts, too, and gives the appearance it's been
operated on, especially after the blowflies have finished with it."

The article continues with the sheriff explaining that the blowflies
feed on the animal, giving it the appearance that wounds are made with
percision cuts.

James said he felt like the article explained what our area is seeing
for the most part. "What they saw on the grant study is the exact same
wounds, by predators, that we're seeing here. We've got a lot of
publicity, but it's never happened.

"From what I've seen," James concluded, "we've had no cases of
cattle mutilations in this county, and our department will be the ones to
do that investigation if we do."
End of Article...

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: ** I tried to contain myself but I escaped ** (1:363/81.1)

<<<>>>
_____________________________________________________________________________


So, it seems NO-ONE in Alabama has a confirmed case of a cattle
mutilation.

More importantly, we have the testimony of an Arkansas sheriff
that he has scientific evidence to back up his claim that "it's
never happened".

This claim must obviously be seriously considered.

However, I could not help but notice that most of the other
files found also related to Alabama, or more specifically,
reports of cattle mutilations in Alabama.

Here was an opportunity to consider whether the claim that
"authorities have no evidence of any mutilation cases" was
accurate. We could also look at these reports and consider
whether they met the criteria of death by natural causes and
mutilation by blowflies.

I have not had time to verify the authenticity of any of these
reports, however, as the sources are stated, I am sure it is
possible to do so.

The headings and comments are from the original text files.

_____________________________________________________________________________

 From The Huntsville Times Sunday October 11, 1987 Alabama

The Associated Press

Geneva, Ala. - AUthorities probing the mysterious deaths of some
40 animals - pigs, dogs and a horse that had its male organs
ripped off

[Deletion]

Mrs. Stinson said there stock boar, which weighed 250 pounds,
was also killed. "The thing that has confused us is the fact
that there is very little blood around," she said. "We're
baffled. We've been studying books about animals and we can't
figure out what this might be."

________________________________________________________________
_____________

The following are various news clippings from Cullman, Al and
  around the state of Alabama concerning animal mutilation
related material....

Cullman Time: February 2, 1989 - Dead Cow Found.

"A route 1 Bremen resident reported finding a dead cow in a
  pasture. The cow's milk sack and rear end had been cut out,
  announced the Sheriff's Department. The incident occurred
between Jan.31 and Feb. 1." Sheriff's report.

  [Deletion]

Also a Cullman resident reported a huge orange ball ufo a few
weeks before the mutilation.

Decatur Daily: Date Unknown: Early 1989 - Cattle mutilation.

  "In northeast Blount County, a farmer suspects someone doing
rituals was responsible for a strange mutilation of one of his
cows on Jan. 5.

  'They cut the rectum out, and I had to kill the cow,' said
  Leonard Jarmon of Hopewell. 'It was cut as smooth as if it was
surgery.'

  He said whoever did it wanted the cow's sexual organs.

**  Note he had to kill the cow... It's rectum and sexual
organs were cut out BUT it was still alive. Notice also the
surgery reference and the incident occurred only a few days
after the Cullman mutilation.

________________________________________________________________

The Decatur Daily, February 21, 1993

ALBERTVILLE - At least 12 animals have been mysteriously killed
and mutilated since October. Cattle farmers, including
Albertville chief detective Tony Cole, have reported dead
bloodless, mutilated animals - cows, goats and at least one dog.
The animals were found in pastures with no traces of auto mobile
tracks, footprints or blood.

"On Jan. 9, I went to feed my steers and realized I was one
short. The sexual organs and rectum was removed and the blood
was gone," Cole said.

His animal was killed amid his investigations into the
mysterious case.

All of the killings, including the latest - a calf found near
Arab Tuesday morning - have formed a three or four mile ring
around Albertville.

"They take tongues, eyes, ears, hearts. Sometimes they take the
blood," Cole said. There are no suspects in the case.

Cattle mutilations are not entirely uncommon in this Sand
Mountain area - and residents remember some from 1986, 1989 and
1991. One farmer said he was hit a few years ago and then hit
again a few mornings ago. Cattle owners from Browns Valley and
Brindlee Mountain have reported similar mutilations.

Most of the animals are worth about $800 and many of them are
not insured, Cole said. The killings are apparently happening at
night. All of the animals have been found within 150 feet of
power lines. Speculation about who could be doing the killing
ranges from aliens to satanic worshipers to people in
helicopters and on foot.

Marshall County authorities are aware of two black county
helicopters, one blue and white Tennessee Valley Authority
chopper and several military helicopters that fly through the
area following flight paths.

"A TVA helicopter is not a possibility. I don't think they're
involved at all. Absolutely not," Cole said.

Most of the decomposed cows are buried hours after they are
found but three were found in time to send for autopsies.

"It's crazy. It's sick," John Strawn said. The cattlemen and
finance manager at Gilbert and Baker Ford Inc. lost one of his
animals to the mysterious murderers. He said a state animal
laboratory could not determine the cause of death. "No one knows
what's killing the animals,"

________________________________________________________________

Cullman Times, February 23rd, 1993

VETERINARIAN DOUBTS CHOPPER, MUTILATION REPORTS-

Albertville, AL (AP)- If helicopters are swooping out of the
night sky and leaving ritually mutilated animal carcasses behind
in northeast Alabama, it hasn't caught the attention of the FBI
or state investigators. Also, veterinarian Michael Brown of
nearby Arab said claims of alien aircraft and animal mutilations
could get somebody killed. Brown said the public officials
talking about such bizarre behaviour are contributing to a kind
of hysteria - "things being blown out of proportions." "It
sounds like somebody has watched too much Star Wars," Brown
said. Albertville Chief Detective Tommy Cole is among those who
in the past few months reported at least a dozen cases of dead,
mutilated animals - cows, goats and at least one dog near
Albertville. The animals were found in pastures with no traces
of automobile tracks, footprints or blood, Cole said. Brown said
some reports of animal carcasses without blood -- and missing
tongues, eyes, ears and hearts -- are probably evidence of cults
or joyriding teenagers.

________________________________________________________________

Cullman Times, March 4th 1993

MUTILATIONS

Decatur (AP)- James Gatlin said something or someone killed the
goats on his Brindlee Mountain farm, taking their eyeballs,
tongues and sexual organs.

The mutilations, which occurred between Saturday night and
Monday afternoon near Oden Ridge, are the first reported in
Morgan County since recent reports of similar incidents about 40
miles away in Marshall County.

Morgan County officials are investigating and warned farmers to
keep a close watch on their animals. At least 26 animals have
been killed and mutilated since October 1992 near Albertville
and other Sand Mountain communities. Cows, goats and at least
one dog have been found mutilated. Precise, bloodless, almost
high-tech surgical incisions are the hallmarks of nearly all the
killings.

________________________________________________________________


  * Forwarded from "BAMA"
  * Originally by Jerry Woody
  * Originally to All
  * Originally dated 4 Mar 1993, 11:26

The animal mutilations in North Alabama continues. The next few
messages I'll post tomorrow will contain news articles from
around the state.

However, by looking over our records for the last 6 months and
new data, we've come up with the following characteristics:

* After the animals are killed, rigomortous and stiffness _does
not_ set in as it does on a 'regular' killing. Vetenarians have
-confirmed- this, so it isn't idle speculation.

* In North Alabama, ALL the cattle mutilation cases have
occurred within 350 feet of high tension power lines. Now, the
motivation for this I can't even speculate on, but the important
part here is it would be very difficult for helicopters, the so-
called culprits that are doing this; to operate in the fog,
under adverse weather conditions at night without colliding with
the power lines.

* In addition to cattle; pigs, dogs and goats are also being
mutilated. Last week a number of goats were found mutilated in
Morgan County, Alabama. Now, I understand that goats -are- used
in satanic cult rites or whatever; but... the rancher, a Mr.
Stanley, states that the goats were mutilated with cuts that
used precise, surgeon like cuts of the kind he had never seen
before. Also, no track and no blood but an unknown helicopter
was seen. Now... lets say you're a satanic cultist and you need
a goat to sacrifice. Which would be easier: To either raise your
own goats or konk one over the head and carry it off =OR= go out
in the middle of the night and perform surgical cuts on a number
of goats under adverse weather conditions? It just doesn't make
any sense.

________________________________________________________________

Below is an article which appeared in the Rocky Mountain News on
April 27, 1993. Notice the reference to the "white substance"
found on a mutilated animal's right rib cage and on the ground
next to it. I am curious if there are any readers of the net
that could elaborate on the chemical composition of this
substance and how it reacted with the deputy's metal pen tip.

CATTLE MUTILATIONS STRIKE IN ALABAMA

By Dick Foster
Rocky Mountain News Southern Bureau

Colorado is not alone in witnessing the resumption of cattle
mutilations. Officials in Alabama say 32 mutilations have
occurred since October in two northeastern counties.

"The cow's udder had been cut off cleaner than you could cut it
with a razor. I've been ranching most of my life and I've seen
animals that predators got ahold of. I'd be willing to bet my
life it was no predator," said Jimmy Pope, a Geraldine, Ala.,
rancher whose cow was found in a pasture 500 feet from his
house.

"The cow had an oval-shaped cut on her shoulder where skin and
hair had been removed, there was no blood nowhere, and the mouth
had been cut in an oval shape and the teeth had been removed
surgically," he said.

While removal of specific organs in DeKalb and Marshall counties
cases is similar to two incidents last November in Costilla and
Las Animas counties in southern Colorado, the Alabama cases have
produced some new twists.

Tissue samples from one Alabama cow, examined under microscope
by Denver pathologist Dr. John Altshuler, showed that the blood
around the cut tissue had been "cooked," indicating temperatures
of at least 300 degrees had been used to make or cauterize the
cuts.

Also, traces of a chemical substance were found at the scene of
a mutilation, according to Fyffe, Ala., police Officer Ted
Oliphant.

"We found a white substance on a cow's right rib cage and on the
ground next to it. I put it into a plastic wrapper, and back at
the office, when I touched some of it with the metal tip of my
pen, it turned to liquid within one second. I put the rest on a
piece of paper. We sent it to a molecular biologist for analysis
and found it was composed of aluminum, titanium, oxygen and
silicon. This is not a substance that occurs in nature," said
Oliphant.

he Alabama mutilations fit the classic pattern, officials said.

"It varies from animal to animal, but generally the same things
are taken. Sex organs are removed with an oval incision, rectums
are cored out, tongues are cut out, jaws stripped to the bone,
milk sacs are removed, sometimes a very large incision and
internal organs are taken," said Oliphant.

Pope said he was awakened by his barking Labrador retrievers
about 3 A.M. but looked outside and saw nothing. His neighbor, 3
miles away, told Pope he had seen a low-flying helicopter late
that night.

"We've got helicopters in about 90% of these cases, either
reported by the farmers themselves on their neighbors," said
Oliphant. "They're these light blue with gray bottoms, Bell Jet
Rangers with no markings on them. We don't know whose running
these things, but they're pushing their luck. The farmers are
driving around with high-powered rifles in their trucks."


________________________________________________________________

Today, the Albertville, Alabama NewsPaper Sand Mountain Times
broke a major animal mutilation story on the front page. It
seems the 'classic' mutilations of cattle have been going on
there since October of last year, and the most recent mutilation
occurred over the weekend. All factors involve the classic
scenario: No blood, no tracks (which is very strange with the
rain we've been having there should be something in the mud),
rectum and udder cut out, surgical cuts, etc.

[End]



You can draw your own conclusions.


Cheers,

James.

<<<>>>


Date: 08-24-94 (19:45) Number: 889 of 923 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: PDOLBOW@R09.TDH.TEXAS.GOV
Subj: Cattle Mutilations
Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: U-AltParaUFO (5163)Read Type: READING ALL (A) (+)


Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 09:43:12 -600
From: "Phil M. Dolbow" <PDOLBOW@R09.TDH.TEXAS.GOV>
Organization: Texas Department of Health
Subject: Cattle Mutilations


===================================================

Here are a few excerpts from an article printed on Saturday the
20th of August, 1994 in an Associated Press article originating
in Eagle Nest, New Mexico.

"Reports of mutilated cattle, suggestive of cases around the
nation 20 years ago, are on the rise again in New Mexico. In the
past 16 months, nine ranchers reported 27 cattle mutilated, the
largest number near Eagle Nest, ranchers and livestock
researchers say."

"No animal tracks were found near the carcasses, no blood.
Genitals have been removed, tongues sometimes cut off at their
roots, anuses often cored out, one eye usually gone. Sometimes
ears are missing. Incisions seem heat cauterized."

"Some people speculate aliens might be responsible. Others blame
poachers or natural predators. State livestock inspector Jerry
Valerio rules out coyotes, bears, birds, dogs, and mountain
lions."

"Valerio says he and ranchers have watched mutilated carcasses
and found predators won't go near them."

"The UFO phenomena fringe frustrates FBI agent Ken Rommel of
Santa Fe, whose government-commissioned 1980 report blames
previous mutilations on predators. Rommel says UFO buffs fan
false rumors. He calls them "the garbage grapevine". Valerio
says he's still infuriated by Rommel's report 14 years later."

-------- Now my 2 cents worth ----------

I have a good friend who is a rancher in Pecos, Texas about 100
miles from my home town. He spoke with me recently about a
mutilated cow he found on his ranch.

He told me of the missing parts (the usual ones) along with the
lower jaw being removed with a precision cut. The incisions
looked as if they had been made with a laser and there was no
blood found on the animal or the ground.

He told me that they loose cattle periodically, but this one was
different. Animal carcasses don't last long out here once dead.
They are usually gone in 2-3 days due to coyotes and vultures
feeding on the remains. This one remained intact for weeks he
said. Predators, not even insects would mess with it.

He called in a friend of his who happened to be a Texas Ranger
to take a look at the animal. The Ranger took a blood sample
from the cow to send to the lab in Austin. They were surprised
to find that the blood in the cow had failed to coagulate in the
usual manner, as it flowed freely "like water" when they cut
into it, days after it was dead.

Some time went by and they never heard anything back from the
lab in Austin. Being curious about the matter he and the Texas
Ranger contacted the lab and interestingly enough the reply they
got to their inquiry about the blood sample was "don't ask".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

-=Phil=-



.. If your computer asks you "Are You Sure?" - Ponder for a moment.

=== Views, comments, opinions, babblings mentioned here are not ===
=== necessarily those of my employer.===

<<<>>>







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   Jul > Jul 11

                   Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Sean Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:55:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Sean Jones


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >This is Part III, which is the shortest of the pieces.

 >Should I continue? Wendelle Stevens spent years in jail for
 >child molestation... but continues to lecture. Oh, yes, the
 >government set him up... Yeah, sure. The Aztec UFO crash?
 >Doesn't matter what evidence is offered that it's a hoax, we
 >still have to deal with it. Del Rio? Clearly not an UFO event
 >and based almost entirely on  half remembered recollections and
 >Todd Zechel's inventive reporting. J. Bond Johnson? His memories
 >of what happened in General Ramey's office are so confused that
 >even he can't keep them straight. This week's tale is replaced
 >by next week's. Derrel Sims the CIA man. The CIA has never
 >recruited in the fashion that Sims claims and he has no
 >documentation to prove his claims. He who shall remain nameless
 >lost his license because he was implanting his belief structure
 >on his clients and not because of government conspiracy. Edith
 >Fiore lost her license and in one case, when a client couldn't
 >remember enough material while under hypnosis, was told, "Well,
 >make it up."

 >So what do we do? Let's picket. (I figured if I'm going to
 >offend some people, I might as well offend them all). That
 >worked so well for Operation Right to Know. No, let's all sign a
 >petition. That worked so well for the Roswell Initiative. Thirty
 >thousand signatures and I think that most of the petitions went
 >undelivered. Those that were contained a cover letter that shot
 >down the whole thing. "I don't believe this anymore, but I have
 >these petitions and I think we're being visited so let us know."

 >The real solution is very simple to state and nearly impossible
 >to implement. First we clean our own house. We stop listening to
 >those who have lied, who have hoaxed, and those who had
 >misrepresented. We start applying some strict standards to our
 >investigations and hold everyone to those standards. We begin to
 >peer review, and I would think that a representative from CUFOS,
 >FUFOR and MUFON would be the place to begin (probably with some
 >at large members drawn from the experienced base of UFO
 >research). I would think support for the Journal of UFO Studies
 >and the Journal of Scientific Exploration would be helpful. I
 >would think that if we stop complaining about the lack of
 >science exhibited by CSICOP and start using scientific
 >methodology we would be miles ahead.

 >Yes, I have seen the idea for peer review come and go, but I
 >think it is now time to push for this idea. I think that we have
 >bumped into the walls, tripped over the truth, and fallen out
 >the windows long enough. Now we must decide if we are going to
 >be serious about this or if we're going to allow the status quo
 >go for another 50 years.

Good Afternoon Kevin, Errol, All

I agree with Kevin 100% !

We should police our own. We _should_ expose the hoax's and lame
fakes to the public.

The peer review has been mentioned time and time again, but with
no one organisation taking up the suggestion.

Errol's list here is about the nearest thing there is to a peer
review. *But* unfortunately, most of what goes on here does not
make it into the public domain. That is what is needed to gain
creditability for good honest research to gain scientific and
public acceptance. Recognition of the hard work put in by
dedicated and hard working honest folk, and not just those in
the good ole US of A!

In part, I think the reason why a public peer review group has
never been formed is because the people that would do it best do
not have the time, and those who want publicity are probably not
the best people for the job. Caught between a rock and a hard
place methinks.

The next step would be deciding if the peer review groups are
international, national, or just area specific. And who could
agree on who the _experts_ are?

There are several researchers in the UK who think that the US
dominates UFO research and that our little isle this side of the
pond does not get sufficient recognition, ergo they ignore or
play down any American instigated review. Likewise there are
some American researchers who think that _everything_ that
happens outside the USA is worth little note. Kinda hurts the
feelings of very good researchers in Germany, France, Canada,
Mexico, Spain, Italy, Greece, and that names only a few
countries that are just on  Errol's distribution list, let alone
actually involved in honest to goodness genuine UFO research.

Sorry if I a sounding like I am ranting, but I have beaten this
drum myself many times, and it does get frustrating.

How about this.

Is it possible that one of the reasons that a peer review group
has never been set up is because some researchers do not want
their work ridiculed as poorly researched?

What about starting a peer review group here on Errol's list if
Errol would allow it?

I would be happy to go first. I will happily type up a complete
investigation from beginning to end on one of my own cases, and
let anyone here give objective criticism of my research,
methods, results or anything to do with the investigation. I
trust Errol will weed out the flames & etc. (Cheers Errol <g>)
Then if the US and UK UFO Magazines publish the report and
online review (trimmed down if necessary) in their magazines for
public consumption?

Anyone think that might work?


Sorry for the late reply, but I have been catching up with me
back log.

Regards

Sean Jones








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   Jul > Jul 11

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:32:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:57:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:40 +0100
 >Subject: Trindade Island Case

Patient and gentle listfolk:

 >Significantly, there is a quotation from Sergio Magalhaes. a
 >Deputy in the Brazilian Federal Parliament, who wrote a letter
 >of complaint to the Ministry of the Navy about their failure to
 >get statements from the alleged witnesses: "For the first time
 >in flying saucer history, the phenomenon was attended by large
 >numbers of persons belonging to a military force, which gives
 >these photographs an official stamp. Threats to national
 >security require greater official attention and action".

 >A very good point, but perhaps the Brazilian Navy failed to get
 >statements from the other witnesses, because they did not exist?

 >Surely by now the comfortable assertion by Clark, Maccabee, et.
 >al. that this case had "dozens of witnesses" is looking totally
 >insupportable.

Have I missed something here? Or am I seeing it all too well,
the usual pelicanist sleight-of-wing?

Where is the evidence that there were no other witnesses? To the
contrary, as I have already noted, the Brazilian Naval officer
who prepared the official report took note of the "strong
emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship's
crew." Now, how would he know this if he hadn't talked with
them?  The officer who prepared the report was there, as John
Rimmer wasn't, and his report flatly contradicts John's wishful
thinking. He also states in the official report, "Afterwards,
the negatives [of the picture taken by Barauna]... were shown to
members of the ship's crew who had witnessed the phenomenon;
they recognized the object appearing in the photos as identical
with the one they had sighted in the air."

So what is the basis for the claim that there were no other
witnesses?  If not the Brazilian Navy, then who? Where are the
shipmates who were on deck at the right time and later stepped
forward to say they had seen nothing? If this was a hoax, it was
one uniquely susceptible to disproof. It doesn't require Rimmer-
  style speculation to be knocked off. It could have been exposed
simply by the asking of a few questions of the right people. And
even if no questions were asked, at some point fellow crew
members of the Almirante Saldanha surely would have come forward
to discredit Barauna's hugely publicized photographs in the
press, radio, or television. After all, this was not some
obscure episode chronicled in some little-read ufology
newsletter; this was a national sensation with all sorts of
manifest political and military implications.

Let me repeat: In the 4 1/2 decades that have passed since then,
not one in position to debunk Barauna has done so, and John
hasn't even attempted to argue the contrary. Maybe next posting
he'll be speculating that Barauna hypnotized or bribed or
threatened into silence every individual who could have provided
the damaging testimony. He will have no evidence for that, but
it won't stop him. After all, he has no evidence either for the
proposition that the other witnesses didn't exist.

And John has not even addressed the photoanalyses which
have uncovered no evidence of fakery. Or is John's position
that absence of evidence is evidence that there is evidence?

Is it not significant that Blue Book, which had every reason
(given its long-demonstrated UFObia) to dismiss the Trindade
photographs as bogus, ignored the witness issue altogether
(perhaps because, unlike John, it knew better) in favor of the
even more questionable allegation that Barauna was a longtime
photo-faker?

The implications of the photographs are obviously extraordinary.
Psychosocial ufology, whose purpose is to render unthreatening
all discordant claims and phenomena, becomes indistinguishable
from old-fashioned debunkery here, with John even quoting and
defending Menzel -- from whom, if pelicanists had any sense of
shame, they would have long ago have distanced themselves.

A more reasonable, moderate, supportable, and classically
skeptical position would, I think, point to the unanswered
questions -- of which, inevitably, some remain -- and argue that
until these matters are resolved, we should resist set-in-
  concrete conclusions. But of course John can't handle the
anxiety of that sort of uncertainty. After all, it leaves open
the prospect that a large, Saturn-shaped structure was indeed
photographed from the deck of a Brazilian ship in view of many
witnesses, and that therefore psychosocial ufology is headed for
history's rubbish heap.

Moreover, we know all too well that if those remaining questions
were answered and a detailed statement from every witness
emerged from official archives, we may be sure that John and his
fellow self-described skeptics would concoct a whole fresh
series of objections. For a generally comparable example, there
is the multi-witness Boianai CE3, "explained" by John's friend
Menzel in explicitly racist terms, to wit: ignorant, unlettered
"natives" signed the statement attesting to the presence of a
hovering UFO and crew inside to please their Great White Father,
the Rev. Gill. In fact, the "natives" were neither unlettered
nor particularly enamored of white colonists, but hey, who cares
about such details when you're polishing off a heresy?

As sociologist Brenda Denzler astutely observes in her
illuminating book The Lure of the Edge: Scientific Passions,
Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs (University of
California Press, 2001), "Debunkers gradually made it clear to
ufology that there were no conceivable circumstances under which
students of the UFO phenomenon could present a convincing case."

Jerry Clark








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   Jul > Jul 11

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <youngBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:49:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:00:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:40:37 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >Actually I was thinking of Hudson Valley. The same object
 >videotaped by the Pozzuolis, or one exactly like it, was
 >photographed a couple of days later by a man up-Hudson from
 >them. Scheaffer didn't say they had to be exactly contemporary.

Jim:

Oh, come on! Now the believers insist that the existance of a
claimed UFO pix must be accepted as proof for another UFO pix
taken at another time? What would you suggest is the length of
time acceptable? Two days, two weeks, two years?


Clear skies,

Bob Young

"We are never deceived; we deceive ourselves." - Goethe








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   Jul > Jul 11

                        Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:04:53 -0400
Subject: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure


Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

Ward Kimball, one of the original Disney animators, referred to
by Walt Disney as one of the trusted "Nine Old Men," (supreme
court of animation) died in Arcadia California on July 8. He was
88.

Kimball was famous for his creation of the character Jiminy
Cricket, The Cheshire Cat, The March Hare, The Mad Hatter, and
for redesigning Mickey Mouse in 1938. He joined the Disney
Studios in 1934, and rose up in the ranks to become a directing
animator on such classics as "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,"
"Pinocchio," "Fantasia" and "Peter Pan." He directed Disney
Oscar-winning shorts "Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom" in 1953 and
"It's Tough To Be a Bird" in 1969.

Unknown to many Disney watchers, Kimball was also student of
UFOs and Outer Space. He had a large collection of UFO books and
magazines, according to Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee who met
with him in 1980. Maccabee had been to Kimball=92s house to
recruit him as one of the 10 original board members for the Fund
for UFO Research. Kimball accepted the position.

Kimball worked with technical advisor Werhner Von Braun to write
and direct three key outer space documentaries for the
"Disneyland" television series. The three documentaries were,
"Man in Space," "Man and the Moon," and "Mars and Beyond."
Kimball referred to them as, "the creative highpoint of my
career." According to Disney spokesman Howard E. Green, the
three outer space documentaries are "often credited with
popularizing the concept of the government's space program
during the 1950s.=92

The first of these, the 1955 "Man in Space," was so popular
(viewed by over 42 million people) that according to Kimball,
President Eisenhower phoned Walt Disney from the White House
looking for a copy of the production. When Disney asked
Eisenhower why he wanted it Eisenhower replied, "Well, I'm going
to show it to all those stove-shirt generals who don't believe
we're going to be up there!"

It was Kimball, who at the July 1979 MUFON UFO symposium in
California, told of his interest in the subject of UFOs. Then to
a stunned audience he related the story of how the American
government had approached Walt Disney himself prior to Sputnik
to make a UFO documentary to help acclimatize the American
population to the reality of extraterrestrials.

Kimball stated in the speech that around 1955 or 1956 Walt
Disney was contacted by the USAF and asked to cooperate on a
documentary about UFOs. The USAF offered to supply actual UFO
footage, which Disney would be allowed to use in his film.

According to Kimball, Disney went along with the USAF plan,
which was not unusual. The use of Walt Disney cartoons, after
all had been suggested by the 1953 CIA Robertson UFO panel as
part of a public-education program involving the mass media to
"strip the UFO phenomenon of its special status and eliminatethe
aura of mystery it has acquired."

The discussions between the CIA people and Disney may actually
have taken place, because in August 1955, Frederick C. Durant
111, who was a member of the Robertson CIA panel showed Walt
Kimball's documentary "Man in Space" during the Sixth Congress
of the International Astronomical Federation in Copenhagan.

Disney had also cooperated with the government in producing a
number of war documentaries during World War 11 like the
documentary "Victory through Air Power." In one year, during the
war, Disney turned out over four hundred thousand feet of
government films.

Disney was also, according to a December 16, 1954 FBI document
made a SAC Contact for the FBI, which elevated him from his
former position as an informant for the agency. The confidential
internal FBI memo read,

"Because of Mr. Disney=92s position as the foremost producer of
cartoon files in the motion picture industry, and his prominence
and wide acquaintanceship in film production matters, it is
believed that he can be of valuable assistance to this office .
. . "

Once Walt Disney had finished his meetings with the USAF, he
began to work on the requested UFO documentary for the public.
He asked his animators to think up what an alien would look
like. Meanwhile, he waited for the Air Force to deliver the
promised film. After some period of time the Air Force re-
contacted Disney and told him the film offer had to be
withdrawn. There would be no UFO footage as promised. Kimball
told researcher Stanton Friedman that once he found out there
would be no delivery of UFO film, he personally spoke with an
Air Force Colonel who told him, "there indeed was plenty of UFO
footage, but that neither Ward, nor anyone else, was going to
get access to it." This caused a temporary halt to the project.
As one account by Bruce Maccabee described it,

" Disney cancelled the project, but by this time a lot of
animated film of =91creatures=92 had been completed by his artists."

"So Disney went ahead and made a short "documentary" anyway,
featuring Jonathan Winters impersonating various "characters"
associated with typical UFO lore."

"I specifically recall Mr. Winters as an old lady/grandmother
who saw a UFO and reported it... then he portrayed the Air Force
officer who investigated the sightings and offered explanations.
He also portrayed a little boy in a room who had a telescope
looking up at the stars and, to the little boy's amazement, an
alien came through the telescope into his room. Of course the
boys father didn't believe that story."

The UFO documentary was never shown in public, but Kimball did
show the 15-20 minute piece at the 1979 UFO Symposium. The
movie, however, did not contain any of the dramatic UFO footage
everyone had been promised. What is important to note about this
Kimball story about the attempt by the United States government
to "spill the beans" is that it was not the only time such an
incident occurred.

In 1972-73 Colonel Robert Coleman, former USAF Project Blue Book
spokesman, and former ATIC Commander Colonel George Weinbrenner,
made an offer of "800 feet of film . . .as well as several
thousand feet of additional material" of dramatic UFO material
to documentary film producers Robert Emenegger and Allan Sandler
at the Pentagon. They would be allowed to use the UFO footage in
a special film project they had been asked to join.

The promised film was reportedly dramatic footage of an
encounter between the occupants of a landed UFO and officials at
Holloman Air Force Base. It impressed Emenegger who described
what he saw in 1988, "What I saw and heard was enough to
convince me that the phenomenon of UFOs is real -- very real."

The project was described to the two producers as a documentary
on a secret government project. When the two men discovered that
the topic of the secret project would be UFOs, they were
surprised because "they had assumed that the matter had been
resolved with the closure of Project Blue Book in 1969."

The documentary was to be sponsored by the Department of Defense
in a claimed attempt to do a public relations turnaround, which
was needed because of the Vietnam War. At least that is the
story Emenegger and Sandler were told by Bill Coleman.  A number
of different subjects were proposed for the documentaries, but
no other subject, other than UFOs, were brought up.

The two documentary producers were told that the government was
now ready to release all the facts about the alien presence on
earth. They were shown evidence that they could use for their
tell-all documentary. This evidence included:

- Photographs and films of UFOs.

- Pictures of grey-skinned alien beings.

- A 16mm movie film of an alien in the company of an Air Force
officer. The two men were told that this alien had survived a
1949 crash and it had been kept at a safe house in Los Alamos
until its death in 1952.

- 800 feet of film showing a landed encounter between three
aliens and Holloman Air Base officials during a landing that had
reportedly occurred there in May 1971.

Several thousand feet of additional material was also offered.

- Photos of UFOs taken by astronauts, which NASA had formally
denied the existence of.

As the documentary neared completion, the two producers waited
for the promised dramatic alien landing footage. Colonel Bill
Coleman who had first made the offer to provide it in 1972,
however, withdrew it. According to what Emenegger told
researcher Tim Good, Coleman had declared, "The timing was
politically inappropriate, due to the Watergate scandal."

The Emenegger/Sandler documentary, "UFOS, Past, Present, and
Future" released by Sandler Films in 1974, was forced to use
standard animation, background film taken at Holloman, and
"elaborate drawing of the so-called aliens." At least that is
what the producers thought when they first ran the film. Later,
indications arose that indicated 12 seconds of the actual
Holloman landing might have been part of the "training film"
material they were provided. As an interesting footnote to the
Disney story, Emenegger reported that he and Sandler had also
talked with the Disney people during the time period they were
working on the documentary. The people who they spoke to at the
Disney studios "seemed to be involved and interested, but not
have any particularly startling data."

In 1983, the United States government made yet another offer of
dramatic UFO film for a UFO documentary. The offer was made to
documentary film producer Linda Moulton Howe and HBO. They were
approached and offered the same Holloman landing film along with
a film of the live alien that lived in a Los Alamos safe house
from 1949-1952.

While preparing to make a UFO documentary for HBO, Howe was
given information by Richard Doty, a special agent with Air
Force OSI at Kirtland AFB (Albuquerque). Doty claims that higher
ups were willing to release special confirming UFO information
for her documentary.  Howe described the film offer,

"The government intended to release to me several thousand feet
of color and black and white film taken between 1947 and 1964
showing crashed UFO discs and extraterrestrial bodies in
historic footage to be included in the HBO documentary supported
with official government confirmation."

As with Kimball and the Emenegger/Sandler team, the promised
film was never released to Howe. Despite Doty=92s claim that the
government had authorized the release of film showing crashed
saucers and alien bodies for use in the HBO documentary, it
never materialized due to "political delays."  When the alleged
historical film footage didn=92t materialized, HBO canceled the
documentary.

In 1985, another offer of historic UFO footage was made to
Robert Emenegger. Colonel Robert Coleman, now retired from the
Air force Public Relations department, indicated the time was
again right, and the government might be willing to release key
confirming information confirming the extraterrestrial presence
on earth. Suggestions are even made that Senator Barry
Goldwater, and former President Jimmy Carter "would help" obtain
the release of the promised film.

One of the conditions tied to the release, however, was that
prominent UFO researchers Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek had
to get involved in the film project. The reason for this is that
a key to getting the information promised by the government is
that the film had to be "professional enough and interesting
enough to reopen the whole subject before the American people."

Emenegger again believed that the information is about to be
released. Vallee, on the other hand, was "negative and
skeptical" about the offer being made. He felt that if the
government wanted to release the information they could simply
go to someone like the national Academy of Sciences and announce
the discovery of the alien presence.

Both Vallee and Hynek feel the Air Force was again playing games
and were trying to use them to deliberately mislead the public.
Between themselves they concluded that they could not support
Emenegger=92s plan, but "if there was any chance of uncovering
genuine evidence" they would pursue it "behind the scenes."
Hynek and Vallee did pursue some interviews at Norton Air Force
Base where two Generals assured them they could produce the UFO
footage, but the two researchers weren=92t buying and the deal was
finally withdrawn.

In the late eighties, the government was again busy. This time
they floated an offer of an interview with the keeper of the
live alien that had been held at Los Alamos. The man had been a
Captain in the early fifties when the alien was still alive. He
was now a Colonel, near death and prepared to talk. Those
presented with the offer were documentary producer Robert
Emenegger, documentary producer Linda Howe, and author Bill
Moore. This offer like the many before it experienced delay
after delay, and a final withdrawal of the offer.

The final twist in this bizarre disclosure saga brings us back
to Ward Kimball.  A prominent British photographer by the name
of Don Maloney reported in 1995, that in 1972 he had been in the
United States and was having dinner with the head of the Disney
Studios, and four of the nine original Disney animators. Ward
Kimball was one of the four at the table.

While this was going on Maloney reported that he was introduced
to another man, identified in one account as a "well-known
Disney employee." The man offered to show Maloney some unusual
film footage at his house. When Maloney saw it he described it
as "old footage of UFOs," and "two beings that he was told were
aliens." UFO investigator Georgina Bruni interviewed Mike
Maloney about his early 1970s encounter at Disney. She described
what Maloney told her about the aliens he had been shown on the
film:

"One, which appeared to be dead, was laid out on a table - or
slab, the other was clearly alive and moving around on the
floor. He was given no information as to the source of the
footage, which he was told was "top secret", but he was in no
doubt that it was a genuine piece of old film. Mike described it
as being similar to the alien autopsy footage that had been
shown on television. (The Fox "Alien Autopsy" film)  At no time
did he say it was the same, just similar. Of the footage he
personally viewed, he said:  =91If the film that I saw was a fake,
it was a brilliant fake.=92"

Was the "well-know" employee Kimball, or was there a second
"well-known" Disney employee who was also a UFO buff? Was the
Kimball Disney story told by Kimball in 1979, just a cover for a
film that the Disney people had gotten from the government?
Maloney has not yet released the name of the man who showed him
the film. If it was Kimball who showed the alien film in his
house, then the government now knows where that missing UFO film
went.

If it wasn=92t Kimball who showed Maloney the conclusive E.T.
footage, then Ward Kimball, like many UFO researchers before
him, had spent many decades of his life gathering strong
evidence of the E.T. presence, and died before he could hear the
government confirmed his suspicions.

If that is the case -- then welcome to the club Ward!


Grant Cameron

The Presidents UFO Story
www.presidentialufo.com







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             Investigation Of A Mutilation In Cache County Utah

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:16:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:07:53 -0400
Subject: Investigation Of A Mutilation In Cache County Utah


Investigation of an Animal Mutilation in Cache County, Utah.

NIDS was contacted on October 31, 2001 by a rancher to report
the possible mutilation of a nine-month old Red Angus cross
steer. The animal had been found dead the previous evening at
feeding time. NIDS alerted our Utah investigator who in turn
alerted the Cache County deputy sheriff who investigated the
mutilation and provided NIDS with his report. At the same time,
NIDS also contracted a local veterinarian to conduct a necropsy
on the animal. The necropsy was successful and samples of
vitreous fluid from the animal s eye, liver and a vial of blood
were collected by the veterinarian at NIDS s request. The
samples were shipped overnight to NIDS.

The animal s scrotum had been removed in what the veterinarian
termed a circular pattern. The bowel was visible protruding from
the opening. Surprisingly, the entire penis and urethra had been
skillfully removed through the small opening (shown in the full
report). The incisions also cut through abdominal muscle layers.

NIDS spoke with the veterinarian following the necropsy and
after the x-ray analysis of the animal s head was complete. The
veterinarian confirmed his remarks made earlier to the deputy
sheriff concerning his mystification about the surgery. It is
noteworthy that the veterinarian was impressed with the surgical
skill in removing the penis and the urethra in a series of
bloodless incisions. X-ray analysis showed an otherwise normal
brain with no sign of a bullet or anything metallic. Therefore
it was concluded that the animal had not been shot.

Multiple chemical analyses [IR, extraction, gas chromatography
mass spectrometry-(GCMS) etc]were conducted on the blood, liver
and vitreous fluid from the animal s eye. NIDS has begun to
develop a subtraction procedure in which GCMS analysis of eye-
fluid from a mutilated animal is compared, molecule by molecule,
with the GCMS analysis from eye-fluid obtained from an animal
that has been left to decompose for a few days and serves as an
unmutilated control. Table III in the full report on the NIDS
web site comprises a direct subtractive comparison of the GCMS
analysis of the eye-fluid from the mutilated animal in Cache
County in the left hand column versus GCMS analysis of the eye-
fluid from the control animal in the right hand column. The
molecules in the eye-fluid are presented in ascending order
according to GCMS retention time. As can be seen from Table III
in the full report, the GCMS analysis yielded an enormously
complex chromatogram, comprising over sixty separate molecules.
A careful comparison between the left and right hand areas of
Table III shows what appears to be multiple phenolic compounds
in the eye-fluid from the mutilated animal that were not in the
eye-fluid from the control animal. The mutilation specific
molecular entities include, but are not limited to: 3-Methoxy-2-
methylphenol, 5-Methoxy-2,3-dimethylphenol, 4-(2-phenylethyl)-
phenol, 2-Methoxy-4-methylphenol, 3,5-dimethoxyphenol. Whether
this family of phenolic compounds, none of which were found in
the control animal are breakdown products from narcotic
substances (see for example Table IV in the full report), or
simply metabolic decomposition products from the animal has not
been determined. However, the range of multiple phenolic
compounds is suggestive. It is therefore speculated that the
excess phenolics could originate from decomposition products of
drugs and/or controlled substances.  Many of these substances
have similar phenolic functionalities as part of their
structures.  The phenolic structures suggested by the MS
analysis are singled out and shown along with a few drugs and
controlled substances having structural similarities in Table IV
of the report. NIDS cannot however be definitive that these
compounds are not decomposition breakdown products, even though
they were not present in the control animal. Such a conclusion
can only be derived from multiple additional analyses as well as
a much more sophisticated research database of the complexity of
ruminant decomposition (ruminant decomposition being much more
complex than human decomposition).

The full narrative that includes the deputy sheriff
investigative report, the veterinarian s necropsy report,
photographs, tables, figures and raw data can be found in the
What's New section of the NIDS web site:

http://www.nidsci.org










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                         Gesundt's 'Truth' Revealed

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:31:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:14:31 -0400
Subject: Gesundt's 'Truth' Revealed


It's definite. Crap circles are created by wind storms. The
Gesundt Research Institoot has agreed to study this mess and we
are in complete disagreement with NIDS.

Crap circles are nothing more than swirling wind, however the
wind is due pelican farts generated high in the atmosphere. As
the pelican farts, the wind created behind the pelican coolie is
swirled around by autokinetic bombardment of oxygen and nitrogen
ions which in turn makes the wind blow, similar to the wind
sometimes generated by a few delinquents on this list. Only when
generated here, on the ground, the only affectation is in the
room where the wind blows. Although I must admit, there are some
times when the wind reaches this mountain top.

There you have it. Straight from the horse's mouth. From Dr. G.
himself. Have no doubts. Just believe.


Jim








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:32:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:15:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Harney


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:40:37 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:26 -0700

 >>>Santiago, Chile (witnessed by millions?)

 >>Be more specific

 >I wish I could. It was one that Antonio Huneeus told me about
 >when he stayed at my house - brought out newspaper clippings and
 >the like. Might have taken place in the early eighties. Daylight
 >disk, very high altitude, caught by a live TV camera and
 >broadcast to the entire country. So there's a MILLION witnesses!


Jim,

There was indeed a daylight disk seen by thousands, and on TV,
over Santiago, Chile. The date was 17 August 1985. The object
was identified as a French stratospheric balloon, launched from
Pretoria, South Africa, according to Chilean ufologist Diego
Zuniga.


John Harney








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                           Re: Mantell - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:42:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:22:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Balaskas


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mantell
 >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:55:16 -0500

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark

<snip>

 >>I am sure there is, but what makes the identification of
 >>Mantell's object of pursuit a skyhook balloon so strong?

 >For two things. One, the witness descriptions correlate so well
 >with a Skyhook, and two, even better, we know where the Skyhook
 >came from, though it took awhile (and the efforts of two
 >conscientious researchers, Barry Greenwood and Robert Todd) to
 >find out. The Skyhook was launched from Camp Ripley, Minnesota,
 >the morning of the day before the Mantell encounter, which
 >occurred on the afternoon of January 7, 1948.

Hi Jerry and Bill.

At the 2002 MUFON Symposium earlier this month I purchased a
used copy of 'The World of Flying Saucers', 1963, by Donald H.
Menzel (Harvard University astronomer and UFO debunker) and Lyle
G. Boyd, because I was curious to learn what Menzel's analysis
was regarding the Mantell Case.

On page 38 we read the following:


"...some time after the Skyhook project was declassified, ATIC
investigators discovered the key fact: At the time of the
Mantell crash, the Clinton County Air Force Base, in Southern
Ohio, had been a launching site for Skyhook balloons.
Unfortunately records for the day of Captain Mantell's death
were not available, and the men who had worked on the balloon
project could no longer remember whether they had launched a
Skyhook on that particular day."


Since Skyhook was now a declassified project, couldn't ATIC, the
men who worked on this project or Menzel himself simply just
look it up in the records?

On page 37 Menzel has a map with the following caption:


"Figure 5. UFO sightings in the Mantell case. The broken line
indicates the path a balloon would have followed."


This map included Clinton Co. Air Force Base (the assumed
Skyhook balloon launch site in Ohio), Maysville, Godman Air
Force Base, Irvington, Owensboro, Madisonville (all in Kentucky)
and Nashville, Tennessee.

What I found very unconvincing is that ATIC/Menzel's Skyhook
balloon would have been moving in a S-W direction, contrary to
the ususal winds in this region and especially the jetstream, at
higher altitudes - which normally blows to the E. Never-the-
less, Menzel makes the following incredible and very
unscientific declaration:


"But the chances of its being correct [the Skyhook balloon
explanation] are overwhelmingly high - infinitely higher than
the probability that Mantel died while chasing a spaceship from
another planet."


 From your e-mail Jerry we can now see that ATIC was wrong about
the Skyhook balloon launch-site and so was the map of the flight
path, for Menzel's phantom balloon, he used to explain the
Mantel case and the other UFO sightings in the region that same
day.

Whe, in in the afternoon, did the launch of a Skyhook balloon
from the site in Minnesota take place on January 7? If it was
late afternoon, it would still not explain most of the UFO
sightings that day, including Mantell's.

If, like Menzel, I can too can state my own opinion about the
Mantell case, I would say that the UFO or "spaceship from
another planet" is of "infinitely higher" probability of being
the correct explanation than a Skyhook balloon (or Venus, mock
sun, or any other officially proposed explanation).


Nick Balaskas








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:04:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:39:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:45:10 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >>>>witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >>>>itself evidence that there were other witnesses.>>

 >An hour after the photographs were supposed to have been taken,
 >Barauna and Captain Viegas "enter the ship's darkroom together
 >and the film was developed. Being present at the development of
 >a possibly faked film is no evidence for the reality of the
 >event it supposedly records.

The suggestion that the film was faked requires a reasonable
method in the context of the events by which the film could have
been faked.  Double exposure, for example wouldn't work if the
object appears darker than the surrounding sky. As I recall the
UFO image is darker than the sky image.

 >>Even if I
 >>am wrong about this, however, the argument by Maccabee and Clark
 >>that no one has come forth to contradict Barauna remains a very
 >>strong argument. The dozens of people on deck would not,
 >>conceivably, have allowed themselves to be complicit in a hoax.

 >But don't you understand? There is no evidence that there were
 >"dozens of people" (precisely four dozen, we are told) on deck.
I>f no one was there, there's no one to contradict Barauna.
 >That's the point.

Approaching the density of osmium?

The point is that the people who Barauna claimed were witnesses
and therefore on deck at the time, could easily have said, "I
was not on the deck so I didn't see it." In other words they
could have demonstrated that Barauna was lying about there being
other witnesses. This could be a contradiction of Barauna, not a
contradiction about the nature, shape, flight of the UFO, but a
contradiction on the number of witnesses.








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               Re: Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:04:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:41:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:21:19 -0400
 >Subject: Argentine Pampa Government Dismisses SENASA Report

 >SOURCE: El Diario de la Pampa
 >DATE: Tuesday, July 9, 2002

 >AUTHORITIES STATE THAT THE RED-MUZZLED MOUSE DOES NOT EXIST IN
 >LA PAMPA

 >**Government dismisseses SENASA report on cattle mutilations**

<snip>

 >The SENASA report states that the mutilated bovines died "due to
 >natural causes" and that subsequent lesions on the hide and
 >organs were caused by predators such as rodents and even foxes
i>n some cases.

 >The health organization thus attempted to pour cold water on the
 >subejct, but few have believed in this version of the events.
 >Furthermore, the Uruguayan government ruled, on the same day
 >that the report was issued, that mutilations in that country
 >were produced by the German Wasp (yellow jacket).

Obviously the Argentinian and Uruguayan governments are both
aware of Debunker's Rule #1: any explanation is better than
none.

Now that these explanations are being rejected as... dare I
say... ridiculous... we will find out if the governments are
aware of Debunker's Rule #2: if the first explanation doesn't
work, propose another.








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                     Re: Trindade Island Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:04:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Maccabee


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:40 +0100
 >Subject: Trindade Island Case

<snip>

 >Significantly, there is a quotation from Sergio Magalhaes. a
 >Deputy in the Brazilian Federal Parliament, who wrote a letter
 >of complaint to the Ministry of the Navy about their failure to
 >get statements from the alleged witnesses: "For the first time
 >in flying saucer history, the phenomenon was attended by large
 >numbers of persons belonging to a military force, which gives
 >these photographs an official stamp. Threats to national
 >security require greater official attention and action".

 >A very good point, but perhaps the Brazilian Navy failed to get
 >statements from the other witnesses, because they did not exist?

Perhaps they didn't bother because they knew it was true.
On the other hand, maybe they did get statements and kept them
confidential.

 >Surely by now the comfortable assertion by Clark, Maccabee, et.
 >al. that this case had "dozens of witnesses" is looking totally
 >insupportable.

"Totally insupportable" for "dozens of witnesses".....

I suppose that would be true if there were absolutely no
information to imply other witnesses. However, there is such
information. So, "totally insupportable", isn't supported by the
available information.








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                     Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:54:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:45:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hall


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:33:48 -0400

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:07:30 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:17:22 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>That's an amusing thought. People on deck were talking about a
 >>>non event because Baruna really never saw a UFO but actually
 >>>hoaxed the picture. So obviously the people on deck didn't see
 >>>it... but they were talking about it anyway..... Hmmm... perhaps
 >>>this sighting was a mass delusion? Everyone thought they saw
 >>>what Baruna photographed? Of course, they wouldn't know what he
 >>>photographed until after his photos were developed.

 >>>That must be it!

 >>>They started talking about what they all had seen after they saw
 >>>Baruna's photo and the executive officer heard them talking
 >>>about how they all saw what Baruna photographed. (any
 >>>explanation is better than none)

 >>Bruce,

 >>Congratulations! You've finally mastered it. It's called Pelican
 >>Logic. You now, officially, have the brain of a bird.>

 >>Best wishes for your new career in ornithological ufology,

 >Thank you, Jerry. I knew at the heart of my bottom that
 >something worthwhile would come out of this. Having achieved
 >full status of Order of the Pelican I can now utilize my skills
 >to dispense with all other UFO sightings and reduce ufology to
 >rubble.

 >PJK will be proud of me.

 >And so will the pelicans.

 >I just hope that when the pelicans fly overhead they won't drop
 >anything.

Bruce,

Too late! We have already been showered with Pelican poop for
several days now. The flock is frantically flying around with
flapping wings, creating a flurry of flapdoodle.

  - Dick









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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:10:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:32:35 -0500

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:40 +0100
 >>Subject: Trindade Island Case

 >>Significantly, there is a quotation from Sergio Magalhaes. a
 >>Deputy in the Brazilian Federal Parliament, who wrote a letter
 >>of complaint to the Ministry of the Navy about their failure to
 >>get statements from the alleged witnesses: "For the first time
 >>in flying saucer history, the phenomenon was attended by large
 >>numbers of persons belonging to a military force, which gives
 >>these photographs an official stamp. Threats to national
 >>security require greater official attention and action".

 >>A very good point, but perhaps the Brazilian Navy failed to get
 >>statements from the other witnesses, because they did not exist?

 >>Surely by now the comfortable assertion by Clark, Maccabee, et.
 >>al. that this case had "dozens of witnesses" is looking totally
 >>insupportable.

 >Have I missed something here? Or am I seeing it all too well,
 >the usual pelicanist sleight-of-wing?

Jerry, you missed something as usual. Here is a member of the
Brazilian Federal Parliament complaining to the Navy Ministry
because they did not get statements from any of the alleged
witnesses. If 48 (or 150) witnesses had seen the object, you
might suspect that a few other statements were floating around.

 >Where is the evidence that there were no other witnesses? To the
 >contrary, as I have already noted, the Brazilian Naval officer
 >who prepared the official report took note of the "strong
 >emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
 >including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship's
 >crew." Now, how would he know this if he hadn't talked with
 >them?  The officer who prepared the report was there, as John
 >Rimmer wasn't, and his report flatly contradicts John's wishful
 >thinking.

He does not however appear to give us the names or any
statements by these witnesses.

 >He also states in the official report, "Afterwards,
 >the negatives [of the picture taken by Barauna]... were shown to
 >members of the ship's crew who had witnessed the phenomenon;

Names?

 >they recognized the object appearing in the photos as identical
 >with the one they had sighted in the air."

 >So what is the basis for the claim that there were no other
 >witnesses?  If not the Brazilian Navy, then who? Where are the
 >shipmates who were on deck at the right time and later stepped
 >forward to say they had seen nothing? If this was a hoax, it was
 >one uniquely susceptible to disproof. It doesn't require Rimmer-
 > style speculation to be knocked off. It could have been exposed
 >simply by the asking of a few questions of the right people. And
 >even if no questions were asked, at some point fellow crew
 >members of the Almirante Saldanha surely would have come forward
 >to discredit Barauna's hugely publicized photographs in the
 >press, radio, or television. After all, this was not some
 >obscure episode chronicled in some little-read ufology
 >newsletter; this was a national sensation with all sorts of
 >manifest political and military implications.

This might have been a very good reason for actually keeping
shtum about it. Don't rock the boat - a very sound naval maxim.

 >Let me repeat: In the 4 1/2 decades that have passed since then,
 >not one in position to debunk Barauna has done so, and John
 >hasn't even attempted to argue the contrary.

And in four-and-a-half decades we haven't heard a dickie-bird
(as they say round here) from any one of the supposed plethora
of witnesses - 48 according to Jerome Clark, 150 according to
the Lorenzens.

 >Maybe next posting
 >he'll be speculating that Barauna hypnotized or bribed or
 >threatened into silence every individual who could have provided
 >the damaging testimony. He will have no evidence for that, but
 >it won't stop him. After all, he has no evidence either for the
 >proposition that the other witnesses didn't exist.

 >And John has not even addressed the photoanalyses which
 >have uncovered no evidence of fakery. Or is John's position
 >that absence of evidence is evidence that there is evidence?

Eh?

I am not addressing the question of the reality of the
photographs. That is another issue altogether. I raised the
Trindade case as an example of an incident where according to
conventional ufological wisdom there is supposed to be a
multiplicity of witness, but on closer examination these
witnesses seem to vanish into thin air.

 >Is it not significant that Blue Book, which had every reason
 >(given its long-demonstrated UFObia) to dismiss the Trindade
 >photographs as bogus, ignored the witness issue altogether
 >(perhaps because, unlike John, it knew better) in favor of the
 >even more questionable allegation that Barauna was a longtime
 >photo-faker?

We have already established he had at least a passing interest
in fake UFO photographs to the extent that he wrote a
"humorous", "debunking" article about some in a Brazilian
magazine. Of course this is no proof that he himself did or did
not fake photgraphs.

 >The implications of the photographs are obviously extraordinary.
 >Psychosocial ufology, whose purpose is to render unthreatening
 >all discordant claims and phenomena, becomes indistinguishable
 >from old-fashioned debunkery here, with John even quoting and
 >defending Menzel -- from whom, if pelicanists had any sense of
 >shame, they would have long ago have distanced themselves.

OK, Menzel distorted the translation of the Brazilian Navy's
statement for nefarious reasons of his own and to discredit the
case. Rascals like that should be lined up against a wall and
shot. OK, Jerry, is that distance enough?

 >A more reasonable, moderate, supportable, and classically
 >skeptical position would, I think, point to the unanswered
 >questions -- of which, inevitably, some remain -- and argue that
 >until these matters are resolved, we should resist set-in-
 > concrete conclusions.

Like where are the missing 45 (or 147 if you believe Lorenzen)
witnesses? Why is Barauna the only person whose account we have
on this "highly publicized ... national sensation with all sorts
of manifest political and military implications"?

 >But of course John can't handle the
 >anxiety of that sort of uncertainty. After all, it leaves open
 >the prospect that a large, Saturn-shaped structure was indeed
 >photographed from the deck of a Brazilian ship in view of many
 >witnesses, and that therefore psychosocial ufology is headed for
 >history's rubbish heap.

Looking through what I have written, can you find anywhere where
I have said that a large Saturn-shaped object - "structure" is
begging the question a bit, isn't it - was not photographed over
Trindade Island? In fact I think at one point I said I was open
to the possibility that it was some sort of natural phenomena.
But in Jerry's view, anything other than "it's a spaceship" is
debunking.

 >Moreover, we know all too well that if those remaining questions
 >were answered and a detailed statement from every witness
 >emerged from official archives, we may be sure that John and his
 >fellow self-described skeptics would concoct a whole fresh
 >series of objections. For a generally comparable example, there
 >is the multi-witness Boianai CE3, "explained" by John's friend
 >Menzel

Oh, yes, we were often down the Frog and Whippet discussing how
to discredit all the best UFO reports, over a couple of pints of
Old Ratcatcher's Best Bitter!

 >in explicitly racist terms, to wit: ignorant, unlettered
 >"natives" signed the statement attesting to the presence of a
 >hovering UFO and crew inside to please their Great White Father,
 >the Rev. Gill. In fact, the "natives" were neither unlettered
 >nor particularly enamored of white colonists, but hey, who cares
 >about such details when you're polishing off a heresy?

What's this got to do with anything, Jerry? You're rambling
again, or are you trying, on a guilt by association basis, to
suggest that I too hold those views and might be a bit of a
racist?

 >As sociologist Brenda Denzler astutely observes in her
 >illuminating book The Lure of the Edge: Scientific Passions,
 >Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs (University of
 >California Press, 2001), "Debunkers gradually made it clear to
 >ufology that there were no conceivable circumstances under which
 >students of the UFO phenomenon could present a convincing case."

And it seems, there are no conceivable circumstances under which
"students of the UFO phenomenon" (not counting the likes of me,
presumably) will be prepared to accept any challenge to their
sacred texts.

 >Jerry Clark

Hey, that Colin Bennett, what a lad, eh? Where _does_ he get it
from?


John "Sexy as an old dog biscuit" Rimmer

Two-Staples Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:30:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:51 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Kaeser


 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:38 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones

<snip>

 >The peer review has been mentioned time and time again, but with
 >no one organisation taking up the suggestion.

 >Errol's List here is about the nearest thing there is to a peer
 >review. *But* unfortunately, most of what goes on here does not
 >make it into the public domain. That is what is needed to gain
 >creditability for good honest research to gain scientific and
 >public acceptance. Recognition of the hard work put in by
 >dedicated and hard working honest folk, and not just those in
 >the good ole US of A!

 >In part, I think the reason why a public peer review group has
 >never been formed is because the people that would do it best do
 >not have the time, and those who want publicity are probably not
 >the best people for the job. Caught between a rock and a hard
 >place methinks.

Sean,

A peer-review process is needed to help gain respectability for
the genre, but isn't likely to happen in the near future. A
definition of ufology and the Rules of Evidence are needed
before we can properly perform any peer review. If we are to
provide that definition and the Rules, then some would find
themselves left-out, simply move to the side, form their own
group and the field would remain as muddied as ever.

One factor that impacts this is the lack of support that the
three 'official' UFO organizations in the U.S. are getting.
MUFON membership is way down, and they can't afford to exclude
any potential members, and neither CUFOS nor the Fund are doing
all that well. Part of this is probably due to the impact of the
Internet, but there are probably other factors as well.

As far as a potential review process is concerned, time is
indeed an issue for researchers, but I think you'd find
volunteers. However, if the goal is to gain respectability in
the eyes of mainstream science, then (as you note) those
"volunteers" would have to be selected very carefully. And if
they are comprised only of UFO researchers, then it will hold
little sway with those outside the field.

You're right. We've been kicking this concept around for a
number of years and I suspect that it's getting harder and
harder to try and implement.


Steve








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:44:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:19:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Friedman


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:56:11 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:51:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:46:44 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:03:00 +0100
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >John and Bruce,

 >>>The Trinidade Island sighting of 16 January 1958 should provide
 >>>a good case for consideration by ETH proponents. Four reasonably
 >>>good photographs of a mysterious Saturn-shaped flying object
 >>>taken from the deck of the Brazilian Navy vessel Almirante
 >>>Saldanha and plenty of witnesses. Jerome Clark's verdict on it
 >>>is:

 >>>Given the number of witnesses, the results of photoanalyses both
 >>>military and civilian, and the need for debunkers to reinvent
 >>>the incident to explain it, it seems most unlikely that the
 >>>Trinidade photographs were hoaxed. (6)

 >Sounds reasonable to me.

 >>>Well, what are the agreed facts of this case? I was astonished
 >>>to discover, on re-examining the literature on this incident
 >>>that some of the most basic and presumably easily ascertainable
 >>>facts are very much in dispute. For example, how many witnesses
 >>>were there? Well, it depends on whether you are a believer or a
 >>>sceptic. And if you are a sceptic it depends whether you believe
 >>>the photographs were faked or that they are genuine and that
 >>>they portray an aircraft or some natural phenomenon. Dr Menzel
 >>>originally thought the photographs showed an aircraft flying
 >>>through cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

 >Not being a "believer," I think I'm qualified to comment here.

 >>>Believers conveniently fail to mention something about the
 >>>photographer that the sceptics gleefully emphasise: he was well
 >>>known for his trick photography. I wonder why?

 >Not being one of those hated "believers," I mentioned this very
 >matter on page 902 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed. It turns out
 >that the charge that Barauna "has a long history of photographic
 >trick shots" is an unsupported charge made by a Blue Book
 >spokesman. Naturally, being pelicanists, the Magonians hastened
 >to fly with this one without further question.

 >Blue Book's charge was made on the basis of a single humorous
 >magazine article, in which Barauna debunked a famous Brazilian
 >flying-saucer photo. The piece is titled "A Flying Saucer Hunted
 >Me at Home." The "long history of photographic trick shots"
 >seems to be a Blue Book invention. But of course if a debunker
 >said it, it must be true. Note how Magonia's vaunted skepticism
 >suddenly fails it here.

 >>>Sceptics insist that there were no witnesses, despite assertions
 >>>from believers that their testimonies were published in
 >>>Brazilian newspapers. If there really were many witnesses, then
 >>>the photographs are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no
 >>>witnesses, it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by
 >>>a photographer who purported to take pictures of something which
 >>>nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

 >Not being a "believer," I probably am not qualified to comment
 >on a doctrinal dispute between two churches, but are we to
 >believe now that Brazilian newspapers did _not_ interview other
 >witnesses? Is there some evidence to that effect?

 >>True. But., how does all this nice reasoning point toward no
 >>witnesses other than Baruna? If Baruna had hoaxed the whole
 >>thing, a la Menzel (who never met an explanation he didn't
 >>like), why would he think he could get away with claiming there
 >>were dozens of other witnesses on deck at the time? Any one of
 >>these purported witnesses could have sunk Baruna's ship by
 >>saying, "hey, I was on deck and I didn't see it, and I don't
 >>know of anyone else who did." Baruna would have been much more
 >>successful in his (hypothetical) hoax if he had said he was the
 >>only person on deck at the time or that it moved so quickly he
 >>didn't have time to alert others to look, etc.

 >>The mere fact that Baruna "dared" to claim that there were other
 >>witnesses, a claim not contradicted by other witnesses, is
 >>itself evidence that there were other witnesses.
 >>Hmmmm... did any of these people say they didn't see it? This
 >>sighting caused such a media flap in Brazil after the ship
 >>returned that you would expect that these reputed witnesses
 >>would have found out that Baruna was saying they were
 >>witnesses... and they could have refuted him.

 >Simple fact of the matter is that after all these years, not a
 >single witness has stepped forward to contradict Barauna's
 >testimony. Remarkable when one considers that anyone who did so
 >could probably claim a nice financial reward from a paper or TV
 >outlet looking for ratings by deep-sixing what is surely the
 >most celebrated of all Brazilian UFO cases, and one of the most
 >famous (and most often reproduced) photos of an ostensible UFO.

 >It is also, of course, startling that the Brazilian Navy was
 >unable to disprove the case easily, simply by debunking the
 >claim that there were other witnesses. The Brazilian Navy,
 >however, said no such thing. Its investigation left it puzzled.
 >It could only say that it could not identify the object in the
 >photograph. It did not deny that a sighting had occurred or that
 >something strange had been photographed in the course of that
 >sighting - though Menzel fiddled with the translation from
 >Portuguese into English to make it appear, falsely, that this
 >was the case.

 >It should have been child's play to disprove a sighting with
 >photographs if the photographer had falsely claimed the passage
 >of a huge unknown and the presence of other witnesses. All those
 >other claimed "witnesses" allegedly on deck would have had to do
 >was tell investigators that they had been there and seen
 >nothing. And why would Barauna have risked being debunked by
 >claiming witnesses who could easily have devastatingly
 >undermined his testimony? Wouldn't it have made more sense to do
 >it alone or in the company of one or two trusted associates,
 >away from prying eyes and contrary testimony?

 >If the Brazilian Navy was fooled by such a simply disposed-of
 >hoax - one that would have collapsed after a few questions asked
 >of the right people - I worry for the national security of
 >Brazil.

 >Of course, we here in North America and - even worse - England
 >are far from the events in question. Perhaps Brazilian members
 >of the list can weigh in here with whatever potentially
 >illuminating information they may have that is not available to
 >the rest of us. In the meantime, it strikes me that the
 >Magonians, as usual, are rushing to a conclusion of convenience.


There isn't much to add to the excellent comments by Jerry Clark
and Bruce Maccabee except to note that it is my recollection
that the Trinidade photos were actually released to the press by
the President of Brazil, Juscelinno Kubitschek (Probably spelled
wrong). Also A.J. Gevaerd in Brazil has noted in the last few
years some additional info about the case, all indicating
reality.

By the way, what difference does it make whether there were 48
witnesses or 42 or 57?? It seems very clear that the case took
place as described by Jerry.But then again all witnesses are
either liars or mistaken, right John?


Stan Friedman








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:49:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:25:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sandow


 >From: Bob Young <youngBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:49:32 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>Actually I was thinking of Hudson Valley. The same object
 >>videotaped by the Pozzuolis, or one exactly like it, was
 >>photographed a couple of days later by a man up-Hudson from
 >>them. Scheaffer didn't >say they had to be exactly contemporary.

 >Jim:

 >Oh, come on! Now the believers insist that the existance of a
 >claimed UFO pix must be accepted as proof for another UFO pix
 >taken at another time? What would you suggest is the length of
 >time acceptable? Two days, two weeks, two years?

Maybe Bob doesn't know much about the Hudson Valley sightings.
Many people in the same area reported seeing similar objects,
over a longish period of time. Thus the two photographs tend to
support each other, as they might not if they came from widely
different times and places.

 >Now the believers insist that the existance of a
 >claimed UFO pix must be accepted as proof for another UFO pix
 >taken at another time.

Nobody's insisting anything of the sort. In fact, I don't see
any insistence at all. Just the thought that, maybe, here we had
two independent photos of what could have been the same object.

A mild-mannered suggestion isn't quite the same thing as
"believers" "insisting" that the photos constitute "proof". Bob -
to judge from this exchange - would miserably flunk any
sessions he went to with a marvelous couples counselor I know.
One of the first rules of civilized discussion, this counselor
teaches, is to accurately echo what the person you disagree with
said. I don't see Bob doing that.


Greg Sandow








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                     Re: Trindade Island Case - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:01:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:26:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Speiser


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:32:35 -0500

<snip>

 >Moreover, we know all too well that if those remaining questions
 >were answered and a detailed statement from every witness
 >emerged from official archives, we may be sure that John and his
 >fellow self-described skeptics would concoct a whole fresh
 >series of objections. For a generally comparable example, there
 >is the multi-witness Boianai CE3, "explained" by John's friend
 >Menzel in explicitly racist terms, to wit: ignorant, unlettered
 >"natives" signed the statement attesting to the presence of a
 >hovering UFO and crew inside to please their Great White Father,
 >the Rev. Gill. In fact, the "natives" were neither unlettered
 >nor particularly enamored of white colonists, but hey, who cares
 >about such details when you're polishing off a heresy?

 >As sociologist Brenda Denzler astutely observes in her
 >illuminating book The Lure of the Edge: Scientific Passions,
 >Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs (University of
 >California Press, 2001), "Debunkers gradually made it clear to
 >ufology that there were no conceivable circumstances under which
 >students of the UFO phenomenon could present a convincing case."

 >Jerry Clark

Perhaps this discussion can give rise to yet a new discipline:
Psycho-social debunkery.  I know I could rant for hours on the
subject.


==JJS==








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:02:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:28:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser


 >From: Bob Young <youngBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:49:32 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:40:37 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 ><snip>

 >>Actually I was thinking of Hudson Valley. The same object
 >>videotaped by the Pozzuolis, or one exactly like it, was
 >>photographed a couple of days later by a man up-Hudson from
 >>them. Scheaffer didn't say they had to be exactly contemporary.

 >Jim:

 >Oh, come on! Now the believers insist that the existance of a
 >claimed UFO pix must be accepted as proof for another UFO pix
 >taken at another time? What would you suggest is the length of
 >time acceptable? Two days, two weeks, two years?


Bob:

Take it up with Scheaffer.


==JJS==








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:31:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:37:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:39:10 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett

 >This head-banging mediaeval schoolman's approach to the
 >examination of conceptual interstices is getting on my nerves.

<snip>

It was such an inexpressible pleasure to read Colin Bennett's
posting. I get so few people writing about me these days, so I
do thank him for the trouble he took. Just a few points for
clarification:

He announces that: "The main problem concerning the UFO debate
is cultural. Most English Magonian Pelicans are indeed the very
last remnants of the Victorian lower middle class..... To a
certain extent, one sympathizes with these stout great-grandsons
of the solid Victorian engineering generations..."

The only great-grandfather I have knowledge of was a singer and
dancer in a pierrot troupe which played the ends of some of our
nobler piers in the years before World War I. My paternal
grandmother was for a time a circus dancer where her speciality
was dressing as a sausage and being chased around the ring by a
man dressed as a butcher wielding a meat cleaver. Later she
settled down into the traditional North of England working-class
vocation of making wooden bobbins for cotton looms. I am sorry
that no bankers or provincial solicitors appear in the Rimmer
family tree.

I admit though that I have put on a few pounds lately.

Mr Bennett then recalls: "I last saw Rimmer some six weeks ago
at the Fortean Unconvention. He sat on stage scowling at me,
accompanied by such luminaries as the baling-wire twins Dave and
Doug (what an act!), who every summer for nearly twenty years
now have forged corn circles with their rabbit gloves, snow
shoes, and dog-bollock ferret- protectors."

Were Doug and Dave "really" (pardon the expression) at the
UnCon? I didn't see them, and I though Dave (or was it Doug?)
had died a couple of years ago - but death is such a relative
term in these post-modern days.

I am also intrigued as to what "dog-bollock ferret-protectors"
are. Perhaps he could explain in more detail, maybe using
diagrams.

Mr Bennett also seems worried that Magonia magazine has only two
staples: "this thin journal is a privately published two-stapled
duplicated thing". I will ask the nice people in Catford who
print Magonia if in future they would be able to provide a third
staple. I realise the problems I may be creating for myself when
I ask Colin: where should they insert it?

In an historical aside we learn that "English sceptics, who
after all are the new Puritans hate America if only because
Americans invented happiness ... Britain had never heard of such
a thing as happiness prior to the 1960s"

My admiration for Jerry Clark and his compatriots grew even
greater when I read this. I ask only that they should send some
to Colin Bennett, as anyone who spends so much time writing
about me definitely needs to get out more.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:36:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:41:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Speiser


 >From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:32:42 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:40:37 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >>>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:26 -0700

 >>>>Santiago, Chile (witnessed by millions?)

 >>>Be more specific

 >>I wish I could. It was one that Antonio Huneeus told me about
 >>when he stayed at my house - brought out newspaper clippings and
 >>the like. Might have taken place in the early eighties. Daylight
 >>disk, very high altitude, caught by a live TV camera and
 >>broadcast to the entire country. So there's a MILLION witnesses!

 >Jim,

 >There was indeed a daylight disk seen by thousands, and on TV,
 >over Santiago, Chile. The date was 17 August 1985. The object
 >was identified as a French stratospheric balloon, launched from
 >Pretoria, South Africa, according to Chilean ufologist Diego
 >Zuniga.


Thank you, John,

I had a feeling it might have been sometihng like that. Assuming
all the t's have been crossed and al the i's dotted, I'll drop
that one from my list.


==JJS==








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                             Re: Mantell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:56:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:43:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:42:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell


Hi, Nick,

 >>For two things. One, the witness descriptions correlate so well
 >>with a Skyhook, and two, even better, we know where the Skyhook
 >>came from, though it took awhile (and the efforts of two
 >>conscientious researchers, Barry Greenwood and Robert Todd) to
 >>find out. The Skyhook was launched from Camp Ripley, Minnesota,
 >>the morning of the day before the Mantell encounter, which
 >>occurred on the afternoon of January 7, 1948.

 >This map included Clinton Co. Air Force Base (the assumed
 >Skyhook balloon launch site in Ohio), Maysville, Godman Air
 >Force Base, Irvington, Owensboro, Madisonville (all in Kentucky)
 >and Nashville, Tennessee.

 >What I found very unconvincing is that ATIC/Menzel's Skyhook
 >balloon would have been moving in a S-W direction, contrary to
 >the ususal winds in this region and especially the jetstream, at
 >higher altitudes - which normally blows to the E. Never-the-
 >less, Menzel makes the following incredible and very
 >unscientific declaration:

 >"But the chances of its being correct [the Skyhook balloon
 >explanation] are overwhelmingly high - infinitely higher than
 >the probability that Mantel died while chasing a spaceship from
 >another planet."


 >From your e-mail Jerry we can now see that ATIC was wrong about
 >the Skyhook balloon launch-site and so was the map of the flight
 >path, for Menzel's phantom balloon, he used to explain the
 >Mantel case and the other UFO sightings in the region that same
 >day.

 >Whe, in in the afternoon, did the launch of a Skyhook balloon
 >from the site in Minnesota take place on January 7? If it was
 >late afternoon, it would still not explain most of the UFO
 >sightings that day, including Mantell's.

I was scratching my head trying to figure out where you got the
idea that the launch from Minnesota occurred on the afternoon of
January 7. Then I reread my words above and realized that my
phrasing could have been read the wrong way. Sorry. In fact,
the launch, from Camp Ripley, was at 8 a.m. on January 6.

 >If, like Menzel, I can too can state my own opinion about the
 >Mantell case, I would say that the UFO or "spaceship from
 >another planet" is of "infinitely higher" probability of being
 >the correct explanation than a Skyhook balloon (or Venus, mock
 >sun, or any other officially proposed explanation).

I urge you to read my reconstruction of the case in The UFO
Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., or the abridged paperback version, The
UFO Book. I am no admirer of Donald H. Menzel, but like a
stopped clock, he's right once in a while. I would say the
chance that the Mantell object was a UFO or extraterrestrial
spacecraft is zero.


Jerry Clark








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                        Sighting Central Texas, 1931

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:28:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:44:50 -0400
Subject: Sighting Central Texas, 1931


Source: Fate Magazine, July 1, 2002,

http://www.fatemag.com/article.phtml?id=3D274

Stig

***

Texas UFO, 1931

True Mystic Experiences FATE Magazine 2002-07-01 00:00:00

by T. L. Murdock

**

It was a spring day on a cotton farm in central Texas. The year
was 1931 and the world was in the midst of the Great Depression.
I was a four-and-a-half- year-old boy with many questions about
the world I had been born into and no place to find answers. My
hard-working parents were uneducated. I was the youngest in a
family of six. My older sisters and brothers had no time for the
questions of their kid brother. On this particular day they were
all on the far side of the farm chopping cotton. I was exempt
because I was too young to use a hoe without chopping a foot
off.

After a hard morning preparing the noon meal for her hungry
brood, Mother would take a nap. Then she would get up and start
all over again. I would help her in every way I could. And I was
supposed to take a nap too, but I was much too restless. I
quietly left the house and wandered out to my favorite sandbar
to play with my one toy, digging in the sand.

On this particular day, the sky was full of beautiful, fleecy
clouds gently moving and forming a multitude of different
shapes. After tiring of digging in the sand, I lay back to watch
the clouds. I could pick out a sheep here and a dog there,
and=97what was that! A cold chilly feeling engulfed me as a cloud
moved over a round, shiny silver object uncovering it to sky and
sun. It remained stationary, for all the world like a great
shiny eye staring down at me.

What was it? I knew about airplanes and Charles Lindbergh's
flight. But airplanes were not round. How was it staying up
there? I watched for a few minutes, transfixed. Then, suddenly,
it shot up into the sky at a vertical angle and was gone from
sight. I leaped up from the hole I had dug and ran to the house
to tell my mom what I had seen.

She listened for a moment, then back-handed me full force for
telling lies. Besides, I had been digging in the sand again and
gotten my clothes full of dirt. There was no such thing as a
round airplane; everyone knew that!

I left the house shedding tears of humiliation and frustration.
I had been accused of lying when I was telling the truth. I hid
out, waiting for my dad to come home from the fields=97he would
believe me. And maybe he could tell me what I had seen.

I was wrong. He got the razor strap and really gave me a beating
for lying!

This experience had a bad effect on me for years to come. I
learned that you could be punished and called a liar even when
you were telling the truth. I never talked to anyone about what
I had seen until something happened in 1947 that vindicated me.
I was living in Chicago when I read an article that stunned me.
An airline pilot had reported a fleet of nine round silver
objects flying at great speed over Mt. Ranier in the state of
Washington. I knew at once exactly what he had seen. In my
mind's eye, I could clearly see once again the silver object
hovering over the farm in Texas in 1931. The pilot's name was
Kenneth Arnold.

After that, several people came forward with sightings. A few
years ago I read that UFOs had been sighted as early as 1932
over Italy. Why didn't anyone else see the same object that I
did, you may ask. This was Texas in the 1930s, and there was
little communication. No TV and few radios, and only a bi-weekly
country paper. This was about two in the afternoon and everyone
was busy looking down at the young cotton they were thinning
out. Others might have seen something but were afraid to
comment. Look what happened to me!

I am now almost 76 years old. But I remember it just as clear as
yesterday, what I saw hovering over me in that Texas field in
the spring of 1931.

**

=A9 FATE Magazine 2001 - 2002








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                             Re: Mantell - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:31:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:47:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Velez


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:42:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell
 >>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:55:16 -0500
 >
 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark

 ><snip>

 >>>I am sure there is, but what makes the identification of
 >>>Mantell's object of pursuit a skyhook balloon so strong?

 >>For two things. One, the witness descriptions correlate so well
 >>with a Skyhook, and two, even better, we know where the Skyhook
 >>came from, though it took awhile (and the efforts of two
 >>conscientious researchers, Barry Greenwood and Robert Todd) to
 >>find out. The Skyhook was launched from Camp Ripley, Minnesota,
 >>the morning of the day before the Mantell encounter, which
 >>occurred on the afternoon of January 7, 1948.

 >Hi Jerry and Bill.

 >At the 2002 MUFON Symposium earlier this month I purchased a
 >used copy of 'The World of Flying Saucers', 1963, by Donald H.
 >Menzel (Harvard University astronomer and UFO debunker) and Lyle
 >G. Boyd, because I was curious to learn what Menzel's analysis
 >was regarding the Mantell Case.

 >On page 38 we read the following:


 >"...some time after the Skyhook project was declassified, ATIC
 >investigators discovered the key fact: At the time of the
 >Mantell crash, the Clinton County Air Force Base, in Southern
 >Ohio, had been a launching site for Skyhook balloons.
 >Unfortunately records for the day of Captain Mantell's death
 >were not available, and the men who had worked on the balloon
 >project could no longer remember whether they had launched a
 >Skyhook on that particular day."

 >Since Skyhook was now a declassified project, couldn't ATIC, the
 >men who worked on this project or Menzel himself simply just
 >look it up in the records?

 >On page 37 Menzel has a map with the following caption:

 >"Figure 5. UFO sightings in the Mantell case. The broken line
 >indicates the path a balloon would have followed."

 >This map included Clinton Co. Air Force Base (the assumed
 >Skyhook balloon launch site in Ohio), Maysville, Godman Air
 >Force Base, Irvington, Owensboro, Madisonville (all in Kentucky)
 >and Nashville, Tennessee.

 >What I found very unconvincing is that ATIC/Menzel's Skyhook
 >balloon would have been moving in a S-W direction, contrary to
 >the ususal winds in this region and especially the jetstream, at
 >higher altitudes - which normally blows to the E. Never-the-
 >less, Menzel makes the following incredible and very
 >unscientific declaration:

 >"But the chances of its being correct [the Skyhook balloon
 >explanation] are overwhelmingly high - infinitely higher than
 >the probability that Mantel died while chasing a spaceship from
 >another planet."

 >From your e-mail Jerry we can now see that ATIC was wrong about
 >the Skyhook balloon launch-site and so was the map of the flight
 >path, for Menzel's phantom balloon, he used to explain the
 >Mantel case and the other UFO sightings in the region that same
 >day.

 >Whe, in in the afternoon, did the launch of a Skyhook balloon
 >from the site in Minnesota take place on January 7? If it was
 >late afternoon, it would still not explain most of the UFO
 >sightings that day, including Mantell's.

 >If, like Menzel, I can too can state my own opinion about the
 >Mantell case, I would say that the UFO or "spaceship from
 >another planet" is of "infinitely higher" probability of being
 >the correct explanation than a Skyhook balloon (or Venus, mock
 >sun, or any other officially proposed explanation).


Hi Nick, Jerry, All,

In my original post I made a strong statement (purposely) that I
assigned more weight to the actual witness testimony than to the
explanation offered by the Air Force - or researchers who agreed
with the AF.

Following are some points that should be taken into
consideration:

1. It has been noted that the skyhook balloon presents an -
elongated- appearance to any observers who are close enough to
make it out at all.

2. The whole incident began when 'several' (not absolutely sure
about the number of State troopers involved,) Kentucky State
policemen originally reported an unusual object - circular in
appearance- and approximately - 300 feet in diameter- that was
moving Westward in the sky.  Because aerial phenomena was 'out
of their jurisdiction', they reported the sighting to the
Military police.

The multiple witness, police testimony doesn't sound like a
description of an elongated appearing Skyhook balloon.

3. All of the personnel present in the tower at Godman AFB at
the time of the Mantell crash had to file statements/affidavits
regarding what they saw and heard.

The tower controller stated that, "... the object looked
silver/metallic."

The intelligence officer, "It appeared to be a bright silver
object."

The executive officer, "... it was _circular_ in shape."

The AACS, "... a small, _circular,_ white object in the sky."

The Operations officer, "It appeared _round_ and white."

The Commanding officer, "It could be seen _plainly_ with the
naked eye."

I refuse to believe that _all_ of these 'expert' witnesses
mistook a balloon with a long tail (of any kind, 'skyhook' or
otherwise,) for a completely 'unidentifiable' aerial object.

Not a one described the elongated shape that a skyhook balloon
would have presented to the observers. The guys in the tower
were also observing the object through binoculars. The
Commanding officer clearly states that the object was "plainly"
visible to the unaided eye. Yet not one of the witnesses
reported anything that could have been a mistaken ID for a
skyhook balloon.

The descriptive words, circular and round, keep cropping up.
These seasoned military men and police officers would have _all_
had to have had a tremendous lapse in judgement if they were
having problems telling a balloon from an unidentifiable flying
object.

As I stated originally, I will continue to take the witness
testimony over the explanation offered by the AF simply because
the AF explanation does not account for the reported description
of what was in the air that day. The skyhook balloon 'theory'
just doesn't fit/explain what the witnesses reported seeing.
Mind you that I'm not saying that Mantell was chasing ET... only
that it isn't the 'open and shut' case that some are making it
out to be.

This has always been one of the more disturbing cases on the UFO
blotter. I don't think that anyone should write it off as
"solved" just yet.


Regards,

John Velez, speaking strictly for myself

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition









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   Jul > Jul 12

                Re: Australian National UFO Conference 2002 -

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 01:37:03 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:59:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Australian National UFO Conference 2002 -


The Australian National UFO Conference 2002 details is now
posted at the New AUFORN web site.

http://www.Hypermax.net.au/~auforn

Yes folks a UFO conference in Australia to be held in Sydney and
organized by UFOR NSW.

This conference is guaranteed to go ahead so be early and get
your tickets.

I'll be there and to all those that have a link to my old web
site it will be closing down at the end of the month so please
update your links.

Please pass the e-mail around
--
Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.homepage.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888







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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:00:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:02:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Lehmberg


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:44:37 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >By the way, what difference does it make whether there were 48
 >witnesses or 42 or 57?? It seems very clear that the case took
 >place as described by Jerry.But then again all witnesses are
 >either liars or mistaken, right John?


You forgot _crazy_, Mr. Friedman. "Misled", "Misleading", or
"Mentally Ill" -- "M", "cubed" in a CSICOPian lexicon of some
antiquity, I understand. First articulated as a grunt of fearful
surprise on the African Savanna by proto-man while he ran away
from fire, and then evolved into the similar expressions
produced by "noisome noisy negativists" of present day. I read
this somewhere..... <g>


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jul > Jul 12

                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:09:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:04:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:30:34 -0400

 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:38 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones

 ><snip>

 >>The peer review has been mentioned time and time again, but with
 >>no one organisation taking up the suggestion.

 >>Errol's List here is about the nearest thing there is to a peer
 >>review. *But* unfortunately, most of what goes on here does not
 >>make it into the public domain. That is what is needed to gain
 >>creditability for good honest research to gain scientific and
 >>public acceptance. Recognition of the hard work put in by
 >>dedicated and hard working honest folk, and not just those in
 >>the good ole US of A!

 >>In part, I think the reason why a public peer review group has
 >>never been formed is because the people that would do it best do
 >>not have the time, and those who want publicity are probably not
 >>the best people for the job. Caught between a rock and a hard
 >>place methinks.

 >Sean,

 >A peer-review process is needed to help gain respectability for
 >the genre, but isn't likely to happen in the near future. A
 >definition of ufology and the Rules of Evidence are needed
 >before we can properly perform any peer review. If we are to
 >provide that definition and the Rules, then some would find
 >themselves left-out, simply move to the side, form their own
 >group and the field would remain as muddied as ever.

 >One factor that impacts this is the lack of support that the
 >three 'official' UFO organizations in the U.S. are getting.
 >MUFON membership is way down, and they can't afford to exclude
 >any potential members, and neither CUFOS nor the Fund are doing
 >all that well. Part of this is probably due to the impact of the
 >Internet, but there are probably other factors as well.

 >As far as a potential review process is concerned, time is
 >indeed an issue for researchers, but I think you'd find
 >volunteers. However, if the goal is to gain respectability in
 >the eyes of mainstream science, then (as you note) those
 >"volunteers" would have to be selected very carefully. And if
 >they are comprised only of UFO researchers, then it will hold
 >little sway with those outside the field.

 >You're right. We've been kicking this concept around for a
 >number of years and I suspect that it's getting harder and
 >harder to try and implement.


Hi Steve, Sean, All,

It doesn't have to be "mission impossible" to get a 'ufological'
review board/committee together. Scientists responded to
invitations to participate on the 'Sturrock' study panel. A
review committee composed of both, _credentialed_ UFO
researchers and volunteer participants from the academic
community would make a fine review board. One that could command
respect from the public and all interested parties.

It only takes the will to do so. I know that I don't have the
time or the expertise to recruit candidates for such an entity.
The day 'somebody' takes on the work, (responsibility for
getting the ball rolling) maybe some sort of dialog on the
subject will bear fruit and actualize it. Until then...

it's all just so much 'rap.'

Here's hoping for the day. I'm on your side... I'd like to see
all the 'dross' removed from the serious task/work of acquiring
reliable answers and information regarding the UFO phenom.

Myself, my family and some friends are all involved in this UFO
mess somehow. All I care about is securing some answers and info
that I can _trust._ The rest is all useless BS and fodder for
the trash-bin as far as I'm concerned.


Warm regards,

John Velez


Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Jul > Jul 12

                        Alfred's Odd Observation #22

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:38:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:07:16 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #22


Alfred's Odd Observation #22 (Friday - July 12, 2002)


Stationary periodic flashers of some brilliance.

Thought quick fast-walkers.

Slowly moving "foraging insect in and amongst the stellar
shrubbery" types.

A couple of 'due westers'... These are a few of the sky
observations I've had since the last report.

...And one startling observation here on Earth... a friend of
mine (a friend WELL within the realm of transparent innocence)
is being stalked, bugged, and otherwise harassed by agents of
the United States government, though that's not what I want to
talk about (...see A'sOO #368 for details on, by report,
documented men in black).

I just want to hang that out there (used later) to illustrate
the point of my contention regarding one Dr. Joe Nickell, a
ranking CSICOPian, and what he expressed a few weeks ago on SDI
(Strange Days Indeed) about ufologists "wasting their lives" in
the pursuit of a paranormal ephemera. He couldn't be more WRONG.
He couldn't be more wrong MINDED. He couldn't be more wrongly
MOTIVATED.

He couldn't be more wrong because he is the complete ANTITHESIS
of what he would otherwise give every indication that he must
be, and that is an educated man "going where the data leads." He
is not. Friedman, Hall, Clark, and Cohen, forgetting Rudiak and
Van Gemert give abundant argument that he (and the rest of his
imagination-less clan) is not, WHY he is not, and HOW he is not.

He is wrong because he says he does "science" but will do NO
science which requires him to rethink his shaky position (he has
to be right EVERY SINGLE TIME where I have to be right only
ONCE). He is loath to redo work ineffectively done (his
ufological research is canted, reactionary, and demonstrably
bogus). He is steadfast only in giving up on a wrong conviction
(UFOs are _too_ real!). He is wrong because his philosophical
predilection is to a too rigid conservatism based on too many
steps laterally and too many steps BACK and a too conservative
(some would argue cowardly) reluctance to take a step forward.
He is wrong in spirit, he is wrong in letter, and he is wrong in
principal. Moreover, he IS the corrupted mainstream, and so a
ready symbol of all the wrong-ness that that implies.

Dr. Nickells is wrong-MINDED for similar reasons. His, too well,
entrenched position is soaked in the mire of intellectual rot
and the national decay of our traditional reflex
authoritarianism. He typifies the self aggrandizing conceit of
the lettered with broad proclamations as bereft of support but
in lettered vapidness as they are of consistent logic.  He is
repelled by the open-minded authoritative and too forgiving of
the gaffs of his CSICOPian brethren. I'd suspect a Limbaugh
republican bent to his social politics, too - "no love"
masquerading as "tough love" and "no research" masquerading as
"concerned investigation". He is thoughtless denial masquerading
as thoughtful apperception...

Finally, Dr. Nickell is wrongly MOTIVATED because his impetus
implies mindless support for a suspect status quo of the
stealthyly non-forthcoming. It facilitates blind acceptance of
professional (all but closed) institutions in medicine, law, and
science (that prey on the masses like wolves on wildebeast). It
empowers cold blooded institutions that have always had
something OTHER than the masses best interest at their cold dark
hearts, institutions that are hard wired to early, vociferous,
and strident dismissal for the contrary individual with a new
idea - ideas that ironically insure the continuing power of the
(all but closed) institutions (and the men by which they are
perpetuated) who would dismiss them. The devil of easy
intellectual complacency truly has Dr. Nickells (et. al.) by his
officious shirttails.

Along these lines (bear with me!) and about a month ago, the
Lists were abuzz with talk regarding Keel's "Mothman Prophesies"
and their relevance to ufology as a whole (as it presently
exists in a national if not global consciousness). With respect,
I think that everyone missed a point about that movie that I
have discovered once the brou-ha had died down and I actually
rented the film. Reflection on that motion picture indicates a
mechanism of society, as typified by Dr. Nickells, that gives
substance to the "waste of life" that someone might be blighted
with in pursuit of a very ephemeral and paranormal ufology, for
example. Which is to say that Dr. Nickells may be right,
ironically, but certainly not the way HE thinks, and only for
reasons which he and his spurious and back-stepping ilk are
pointedly responsible for!

Will Patten, a deceptively effective character actor, played the
part of a very simple man, Gordon Smallwood. Smallwood was
confronted with an anomalous manifestation that "apparently"
drove him to the loss of job and family, likely insanity, and,
finally, death. Richard Gere was able to escape a similar fate
by denying the anomaly, at last, when he would not take a call
from his dead wife and tore the phone out of the wall to throw
it (a symbol of what's out of the "box") across the room and
away from him. The lesson here would be one of denial then, to
assure continued normalcy, comfort in a contrived and insentient
invention of reality, and comfortable acceptance by ones peers,
subordinates, and superiors.

But WHY were the characters driven to insanity or close to it,
REALLY? Some would say that it was the enigmatic devil that made
them crazy or their flirtation with the unknowable that took
them to the brink or over it.

But there is 'something' underlying these phenomena more
insidious than its enigmatic scapegoat and more guileful than a
UFO stuffed with anomalous Mothmen. And what is THAT but the
reflexive and all too abject DENIAL of those things "outside the
box" by a shallowly cyclopean CSPCOPia or its equally effective
clones?

What if the Patten and Gere characters been able to consult an
enlightened consortium of lettered persons, a Bizarro CSICOP if
the reader allows (that didn't automatically presume their
insanity) regarding their highly unusual experiences? Quite
simply, they would not have had to shoulder the burden of it
ALONE and been driven to the excesses they were compelled to act
out! Had they been respected for their reports instead of
ostracized and marginalized, they wouldn't have been the
pathetic, tragic, and suicidal characters that they portrayed in
the film; they would have just been more DATA for the problem's
solution! Hell, the only lettered person in the picture's
equation was a Doctor that was HIMSELF ostracized and
marginalized for looking too deeply into the light that may
"be."

Who is the cause of the OSTRACISM and MARGINALIZATION, the
reflexive ridicule, and the smirking sneers? Well - that would
be what we reap as a result of the intrepid Dr. Nickells and his
intransigent clan of not-so-merry (or open-minded, scientific,
creative or even intelligent) men! What MAY have started out as
an efficacious device to root out charlatans and chicanery, and
was supported by such noted personalities (individuals I add) as
Allen and Sagan, becomes what we have today: the mainstream's
instrument of paranormal denial and intellectual backstepping.
It is the fraud THEY perpetrate... that people should be on
their guard for, FIRST, and NOT the wishful thinker or the
crackpot dreamer encountered in the unnecessary informational
void. Oh sure, be on guard for them, too, just FIRST be on guard
for CSICOP, a craven mouthpiece for a status quo unconcerned
with the greatest good for the greatest number, the efficacious
individual with a new twist or idea, or an individual person's
right to 'know.'

...Proof that CSICOPs a fraud?

Well - remember my friend, good reader... the bugged, followed,
and otherwise transparently innocent man harassed by dark agents
of the government? Indications ARE that that's on the level.
Truly.

CSICOP, in its artless turn, would reflexively deny every aspect
of the odd, out of the box, experiences of my friend,
experiences which are (without doubt) the only thing that would
lure the interest of these agencies that, by report, stalk and
threaten him. The government MUST know facts and details about
UFOs and their appellate issues that it does not admit, hence
the very real and frightening harassment of my friend. CSICOP
has strong ties to the hijacked mainstream and its parent non-
  elected government and knows at least some of the truth? Ipso?
CSICOP's a fraud! It's pretty plain when you go where the data
leads.

That's enough... I remain watching sky. Read on!

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Jul > Jul 12

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:44:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:09:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:11 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:32:35 -0500

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:40 +0100
 >>>Subject: Trindade Island Case


Hi, John,

 >>>Significantly, there is a quotation from Sergio Magalhaes. a
 >>>Deputy in the Brazilian Federal Parliament, who wrote a letter
 >>>of complaint to the Ministry of the Navy about their failure to
 >>>get statements from the alleged witnesses: "For the first time
 >>>in flying saucer history, the phenomenon was attended by large
 >>>numbers of persons belonging to a military force, which gives
 >>>these photographs an official stamp. Threats to national
 >>>security require greater official attention and action".

 >>>A very good point, but perhaps the Brazilian Navy failed to get
 >>>statements from the other witnesses, because they did not exist?

Let us note here something you now want us to forget: You are
here implying that the "other witnesses... did not exist."
Elsewhere, however... well, read what follows.

 >>>Surely by now the comfortable assertion by Clark, Maccabee, et.
 >>>al. that this case had "dozens of witnesses" is looking totally
 >>>insupportable.

 >>Have I missed something here? Or am I seeing it all too well,
 >>the usual pelicanist sleight-of-wing?

 >Jerry, you missed something as usual. Here is a member of the
 >Brazilian Federal Parliament complaining to the Navy Ministry
 >because they did not get statements from any of the alleged
 >witnesses. If 48 (or 150) witnesses had seen the object, you
 >might suspect that a few other statements were floating around.

Okay. The fact remains: Official investigators refer to other
witnesses, all of whom, we are told, confirm that they saw what
Barauna photographed. Not one came forward then, or has come
forward since, to claim the opposite. Yes, we would all like to
see individual statements, which for all we know are buried in
Brazilian Naval archives. (I strongly encourage our Brazilian
colleagues to conduct appropriate inquiries.) Meantime, we have
no reason to think those witnesses did not exist, as would be
the case if (as you sometimes seem to argue when you're not
seeming to argue something else) Barauna faked the pictures.

 >>Where is the evidence that there were no other witnesses? To the
 >>contrary, as I have already noted, the Brazilian Naval officer
 >>who prepared the official report took note of the "strong
 >>emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
 >>including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship's
 >>crew." Now, how would he know this if he hadn't talked with
 >>them? The officer who prepared the report was there, as John
 >>Rimmer wasn't, and his report flatly contradicts John's wishful
 >>thinking.

 >He does not however appear to give us the names or any
 >statements by these witnesses.

 >>He also states in the official report, "Afterwards,
 >>the negatives [of the picture taken by Barauna]... were shown to
 >>members of the ship's crew who had witnessed the phenomenon;

 >Names?

Now what is this supposed to mean? That we don't have names
because the witnesses don't exist? Do us the courtesy, John, of
making an argument that is at least marginally coherent. Do you
want us to believe the Naval investigator was lying and thus,
presumably, conspiring with Barauna?

 >>they recognized the object appearing in the photos as identical
 >>with the one they had sighted in the air."

 >>So what is the basis for the claim that there were no other
 >>witnesses? If not the Brazilian Navy, then who? Where are the
 >>shipmates who were on deck at the right time and later stepped
 >>forward to say they had seen nothing? If this was a hoax, it was
 >>one uniquely susceptible to disproof. It doesn't require Rimmer-
 >>style speculation to be knocked off. It could have been exposed
 >>simply by the asking of a few questions of the right people. And
 >>even if no questions were asked, at some point fellow crew
 >>members of the Almirante Saldanha surely would have come forward
 >>to discredit Barauna's hugely publicized photographs in the
 >>press, radio, or television. After all, this was not some
 >>obscure episode chronicled in some little-read ufology
 >>newsletter; this was a national sensation with all sorts of
 >>manifest political and military implications.

 >This might have been a very good reason for actually keeping
 >shtum about it. Don't rock the boat - a very sound naval maxim.

"Shtum?" Is this a variant of "Stendec?" Sorry, John, just a
rude colonial wisecrack. We don't use expressions like that over
here in the outback.

In any event, the all-purpose pelicanist tactic of making it up
as you go along. You have not an iota of evidence to back up the
charge, suggestion, fantasy, or whatever, above. Since it is
barely there, it barely merits refutating.

 >>Let me repeat: In the 4 1/2 decades that have passed since then,
 >>not one in position to debunk Barauna has done so, and John
 >>hasn't even attempted to argue the contrary.

 >And in four-and-a-half decades we haven't heard a dickie-bird
 >(as they say round here) from any one of the supposed plethora
 >of witnesses - 48 according to Jerome Clark, 150 according to
 >the Lorenzens.

Okay, were there or were there not witnesses? Yes, there is
ambiguity about their precise number, but none that you have
been able to demonstrate - unless you're intending to lay out a
conspiracy theory, with appropriate evidence - about their
existence.  Is it your view that the Navy investigator was lying
about the presence of other witnesses? Make up your mind, John,
or stop wasting our time.

 >>And John has not even addressed the photoanalyses which
 >>have uncovered no evidence of fakery. Or is John's position
 >>that absence of evidence is evidence that there is evidence?

 >Eh?

 >I am not addressing the question of the reality of the
 >photographs. That is another issue altogether. I raised the
 >Trindade case as an example of an incident where according to
 >conventional ufological wisdom there is supposed to be a
 >multiplicity of witness, but on closer examination these
 >witnesses seem to vanish into thin air.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Are not the
photoanalyses indicating the object to be large and consistent
with witness testimony relevant to the discussion? Or just
inconvenient to pelicanist interpretation?

 >>Is it not significant that Blue Book, which had every reason
 >>(given its long-demonstrated UFObia) to dismiss the Trindade
 >>photographs as bogus, ignored the witness issue altogether
 >>(perhaps because, unlike John, it knew better) in favor of the
 >>even more questionable allegation that Barauna was a longtime
 >>photo-faker?

 >We have already established he had at least a passing interest
 >in fake UFO photographs to the extent that he wrote a
 >"humorous", "debunking" article about some in a Brazilian
 >magazine. Of course this is no proof that he himself did or did
 >not fake photgraphs.

If you have evidence supporting the Blue Book charge (echoed by
Doc Menzel) that Barauna had a "long history" of photo- faking,
let's hear it. Otherwise, my point stands. The debunking article
is not evidence that Barauna was a serial faker. That the Air
Force had to use this lame-ass rationale to dismiss the case -
rather than emply what would have been a far more persuasive
one, that there were no other witnesses or that those witnesses
refuted Barauna's claims - surely tells us something. Say, that
the pelican isn't flying.

 >>The implications of the photographs are obviously extraordinary.
 >>Psychosocial ufology, whose purpose is to render unthreatening
 >>all discordant claims and phenomena, becomes indistinguishable
 >>from old-fashioned debunkery here, with John even quoting and
 >>defending Menzel - from whom, if pelicanists had any sense of
 >>shame, they would have long ago have distanced themselves.

 >OK, Menzel distorted the translation of the Brazilian Navy's
 >statement for nefarious reasons of his own and to discredit the
 >case. Rascals like that should be lined up against a wall and
 >shot. OK, Jerry, is that distance enough?

No, "rascals like that" should not be shot. But pelicanists like
you ought to be honest enough to criticize those with whom you
fundamentally agree when they are wrong or worse, as in this
instance, dishonest.

 >>A more reasonable, moderate, supportable, and classically
 >>skeptical position would, I think, point to the unanswered
 >>questions - of which, inevitably, some remain - and argue that
 >>until these matters are resolved, we should resist set-in-
 >>concrete conclusions.

 >Like where are the missing 45 (or 147 if you believe Lorenzen)
 >witnesses? Why is Barauna the only person whose account we have
 >on this "highly publicized... national sensation with all sorts
 >of manifest political and military implications"?

What is your point here? That there were no other witnesses, the
Navy's repeated assertions to the contrary? Yes, there are, as I
said, unanswered questions. Not one, however, seems to support
your strange assertions, which get ever more confusing. The Navy
investigator states repeatedly that there were other witnesses,
that they confirmed what Barauna claimed to have seen and
photographed. Not one, in all the years since, has ever come
forward to claim the contrary. If you have evidence to that
effect, let's hear it. Otherwise, you're wasting all our time,
not least your own.

 >>But of course John can't handle the
 >>anxiety of that sort of uncertainty. After all, it leaves open
 >>the prospect that a large, Saturn-shaped structure was indeed
 >>photographed from the deck of a Brazilian ship in view of many
 >>witnesses, and that therefore psychosocial ufology is headed for
 >>history's rubbish heap.

 >Looking through what I have written, can you find anywhere where
 >I have said that a large Saturn-shaped object - "structure" is
 >begging the question a bit, isn't it - was not photographed over
 >Trindade Island? In fact I think at one point I said I was open
 >to the possibility that it was some sort of natural phenomena.

I've just picked myself up from the floor after reading your odd
and ungrammatical "some sort of natural phenomena." More
pelicanist MIUAYGA: Make It Up As You Go Along. Whatever the
object in the photos is, it's no natural phenomenon. Somebody
made it.  I would believe this case is a hoax - a far more
imaginable possibility - before I would credit your
extraordinary claim. The object is like nothing that exists in
nature (even, in his first explanation, Menzel thought it was an
airplane and, in his second, that it was a model) and is some
sort of structure. Even Menzel and Blue Book figured that out.
They and the case's defenders disagree only on its size.

 >But in Jerry's view, anything other than "it's a spaceship" is
 >debunking.

Uh, where did I say "it's a spaceship"? You have those three
words in quotation marks, so I assume you're quoting. Let's have
a precise citation. You won't be able to provide one because,
unlike the Trindade witnesses, this one doesn't exist. In fact,
I know no better than anybody else what the object is. So far,
however, the evidence suggests that whatever it is, it is large
and highly anomalous. Contrary evidence has yet to be
demonstrated - which doesn't mean that it could _never_ be
demonstrated, only that it hasn't so far appeared.

And what, by the way, _is_ the source of your obsession
with the ETH, by the way? I'm sure other listfolk have
noted that nine times out of 10 - at a conservative estimate
-- it's pelicanists who bring it up.

 >>Moreover, we know all too well that if those remaining questions
 >>were answered and a detailed statement from every witness
 >>emerged from official archives, we may be sure that John and his
 >>fellow self-described skeptics would concoct a whole fresh
 >>series of objections. For a generally comparable example, there
 >>is the multi-witness Boianai CE3, "explained" by John's friend
 >>Menzel

 >Oh, yes, we were often down the Frog and Whippet discussing how
 >to discredit all the best UFO reports, over a couple of pints of
 >Old Ratcatcher's Best Bitter!

Uh huh. From what I am told by those who knew him, Menzel was
not exactly the most entertaining company. I give you points for
kindness even to the undeserving. (Yes, John, I know you're
joking. I hope you know I am, too.)

 >>in explicitly racist terms, to wit: ignorant, unlettered
 >>"natives" signed the statement attesting to the presence of a
 >>hovering UFO and crew inside to please their Great White Father,
 >>the Rev. Gill. In fact, the "natives" were neither unlettered
 >>nor particularly enamored of white colonists, but hey, who cares
 >>about such details when you're polishing off a heresy?

 >What's this got to do with anything, Jerry? You're rambling
 >again, or are you trying, on a guilt by association basis, to
 >suggest that I too hold those views and might be a bit of a
 >racist?

Uh, I don't think my point was _that_ hard to divine, even for a
psychosocial ufologist.

(1) This was a multiple-witness close encounter with a signed
statement with 26 names attached. My point was that even if the
signed statements you keep mentioning were produced, they would
not satisfy you any more than they did Menzel, who simply
proceeded to make up a discrediting explanation -- an especially
unsavory one - out of thin air. As Denzler wittily observes,
debunkers have long made it clear that there are no
circumstances under which ufologists will be allowed to make a
case.

(2) Furthermore, I was citing the Papua New Guinea case as an
example of the depths to which Menzel would sink to debunk hated
heresies, essentially - as you have done above -- making up
whatever suited the purpose of the moment. In this example, he
did not hesitate to engage in openly racist speculation. This
does not make you a racist (obviously, I am certain you are
not), but it does demonstrate the sort of company you're willing
to abide, or to cite, in your shared antipathy to the UFO
heresy. James McDonald used to say that Menzel forgot he was a
scientist whenever he approached UFOs.

 >>As sociologist Brenda Denzler astutely observes in her
 >>illuminating book The Lure of the Edge: Scientific Passions,
 >>Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs (University of
 >>California Press, 2001), "Debunkers gradually made it clear to
 >>ufology that there were no conceivable circumstances under which
 >>students of the UFO phenomenon could present a convincing case."

 >And it seems, there are no conceivable circumstances under which
 >"students of the UFO phenomenon" (not counting the likes of me,
 >presumably) will be prepared to accept any challenge to their
 >sacred texts.

This is so richly looney that tears come to the eyes, whether
from sorrow or hilarity one cannot say.

As listfolk familiar with my work are aware, I have written
extensively on bogus UFO cases and personally exposed some once
prominent ones as conventionally explainable. (I once wrote a
Fortean book which CSICOP hard-liner Robert Baker reviewed,
expressing perplexity at the degree of skepticism he found
therein.)  Currently, there is a list discussion in which I
take the skeptical position on the Mantell case - you know, one
of those "sacred texts." My encyclopedia contains no shortage
of skeptical analysis, and that's also true of the book I am
currently writing, which actually debunks a case I treated as
genuine mysterious in the encyclopedia.

Any ufologist I respect takes the same approach, and we argue
all the time about particular sightings, prominent or otherwise.
  In other words, unlike debunkers, we are not a choir of nodding
heads and burbling affirmations.

That you would have to resort to such a goofy charge - when in
fact the problem is simply that your argument about Trindade is
not convincing or even coherent - suggests that maybe
psychosocial ufology is now no more than a euphemism for
Menzelism.


Jerry Clark








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                 Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:34:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:04:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Maccabee


 >From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

 >Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

 >Ward Kimball, one of the original Disney animators, referred to
 >by Walt Disney as one of the trusted "Nine Old Men," (supreme
 >court of animation) died in Arcadia California on July 8. He was
 >88.

 >Kimball was famous for his creation of the character Jiminy
 >Cricket, The Cheshire Cat, The March Hare, The Mad Hatter, and
 >for redesigning Mickey Mouse in 1938. He joined the Disney
 >Studios in 1934, and rose up in the ranks to become a directing
 >animator on such classics as "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,"
 >"Pinocchio," "Fantasia" and "Peter Pan." He directed Disney
 >Oscar-winning shorts "Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom" in 1953 and
 >"It's Tough To Be a Bird" in 1969.

 >Unknown to many Disney watchers, Kimball was also student of
 >UFOs and Outer Space. He had a large collection of UFO books and
 >magazines, according to Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee who met
 >with him in 1980. Maccabee had been to Kimball=92s house to
 >recruit him as one of the 10 original board members for the Fund
 >for UFO Research. Kimball accepted the position.

<snip>

 >It was Kimball, who at the July 1979 MUFON UFO symposium in
 >California, told of his interest in the subject of UFOs. Then to
 >a stunned audience he related the story of how the American
 >government had approached Walt Disney himself prior to Sputnik
 >to make a UFO documentary to help acclimatize the American
 >population to the reality of extraterrestrials.

 >Kimball stated in the speech that around 1955 or 1956 Walt
 >Disney was contacted by the USAF and asked to cooperate on a
 >documentary about UFOs. The USAF offered to supply actual UFO
 >footage, which Disney would be allowed to use in his film.

<snip>

 >In 1972-73 Colonel Robert Coleman, former USAF Project Blue Book
 >spokesman, and former ATIC Commander Colonel George Weinbrenner,
 >made an offer of "800 feet of film . . .as well as several
 >thousand feet of additional material" of dramatic UFO material
 >to documentary film producers Robert Emenegger and Allan Sandler
 >at the Pentagon. They would be allowed to use the UFO footage in
 >a special film project they had been asked to join.

 >The promised film was reportedly dramatic footage of an
 >encounter between the occupants of a landed UFO and officials at
 >Holloman Air Force Base. It impressed Emenegger who described
 >what he saw in 1988, "What I saw and heard was enough to
 >convince me that the phenomenon of UFOs is real -- very real."

<snip>

 >As the documentary neared completion, the two producers waited
 >for the promised dramatic alien landing footage. Colonel Bill
 >Coleman who had first made the offer to provide it in 1972,
 >however, withdrew it. According to what Emenegger told
 >researcher Tim Good, Coleman had declared, "The timing was
 >politically inappropriate, due to the Watergate scandal."

<snip>

 >In 1983, the United States government made yet another offer of
 >dramatic UFO film for a UFO documentary. The offer was made to
 >documentary film producer Linda Moulton Howe and HBO. They were
 >approached and offered the same Holloman landing film along with
 >a film of the live alien that lived in a Los Alamos safe house
 >from 1949-1952.

<snip>

 >As with Kimball and the Emenegger/Sandler team, the promised
 >film was never released to Howe. Despite Doty=92s claim that the
 >government had authorized the release of film showing crashed
 >saucers and alien bodies for use in the HBO documentary, it
 >never materialized due to "political delays." When the alleged
 >historical film footage didn=92t materialized, HBO canceled the
 >documentary.

 >In 1985, another offer of historic UFO footage was made to
 >Robert Emenegger. Colonel Robert Coleman, now retired from the
 >Air force Public Relations department, indicated the time was
 >again right, and the government might be willing to release key
 >confirming information confirming the extraterrestrial presence
 >on earth. Suggestions are even made that Senator Barry
 >Goldwater, and former President Jimmy Carter "would help" obtain
t>he release of the promised film.

<snip>

 >Hynek and Vallee did pursue some interviews at Norton Air Force
 >Base where two Generals assured them they could produce the UFO
 >footage, but the two researchers weren=92t buying and the deal was
 >finally withdrawn.

 >In the late eighties, the government was again busy. This time
 >they floated an offer of an interview with the keeper of the
 >live alien that had been held at Los Alamos. The man had been a
 >Captain in the early fifties when the alien was still alive. He
 >was now a Colonel, near death and prepared to talk. Those
 >presented with the offer were documentary producer Robert
 >Emenegger, documentary producer Linda Howe, and author Bill
 >Moore. This offer like the many before it experienced delay
 >after delay, and a final withdrawal of the offer.

 >The final twist in this bizarre disclosure saga brings us back
 >to Ward Kimball. A prominent British photographer by the name
 >of Don Maloney reported in 1995, that in 1972 he had been in the
 >United States and was having dinner with the head of the Disney
 >Studios, and four of the nine original Disney animators. Ward
 >Kimball was one of the four at the table.

<snip>

 >Was the "well-know" employee Kimball, or was there a second
 >"well-known" Disney employee who was also a UFO buff? Was the
 >Kimball Disney story told by Kimball in 1979, just a cover for a
 >film that the Disney people had gotten from the government?
 >Maloney has not yet released the name of the man who showed him
 >the film. If it was Kimball who showed the alien film in his
 >house, then the government now knows where that missing UFO film
 >went.

 >If it wasn=92t Kimball who showed Maloney the conclusive E.T.
 >footage, then Ward Kimball, like many UFO researchers before
 >him, had spent many decades of his life gathering strong
 >evidence of the E.T. presence, and died before he could hear the
 >government confirmed his suspicions.

 >If that is the case -- then welcome to the club Ward!

I thank Grant Cameron for compiling this history of aborted
attempts to get the word out. And, while reading it, it suddenly
occurred to me what has been in ffront of my nose for the last
several weeks... an even earlier attempt to get the word out...
and almost did, via LIFE magazine in 1952. The writers of the
life article were told by a top level General that saucers were
interplanetary. Their article indicated "there is a case for
interplanetary saucers." We are approaching the 50th anniversary
of the day when the lid was slammed back on.... the first real
abortion of an attempt to get the truth out!

The complete story, complete with a picture of Marilyn (you know
which Marilyn... and I don't mean Manson!), is at:

http://brumac.8k.com/1952yearofufo/1952yearofufo.html








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   Jul > Jul 13

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:39:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:06:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Maccabee


 >rom: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:54:23 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:33:48 -0400

 >>I just hope that when the pelicans fly overhead they won't drop
 >>anything.

 >Bruce,

 >Too late! We have already been showered with Pelican poop for
 >several days now. The flock is frantically flying around with
 >flapping wings, creating a flurry of flapdoodle.

Ouch!

Time to break out the umbrella!








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   Jul > Jul 13

                    Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Fernandes

From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@netcabo.pt>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:08:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:15:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Fernandes


 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:38 +0100
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

<snip>

 >>Yes, I have seen the idea for peer review come and go, but I
 >>think it is now time to push for this idea. I think that we have
 >>bumped into the walls, tripped over the truth, and fallen out
 >>the windows long enough. Now we must decide if we are going to
 >>be serious about this or if we're going to allow the status quo
 >>go for another 50 years.

<snip>

 >In part, I think the reason why a public peer review group has
 >never been formed is because the people that would do it best do
 >not have the time, and those who want publicity are probably not
 >the best people for the job. Caught between a rock and a hard
 >place methinks.

 >The next step would be deciding if the peer review groups are
 >international, national, or just area specific. And who could
 >agree on who the _experts_ are?

<snip>

 >Is it possible that one of the reasons that a peer review group
 >has never been set up is because some researchers do not want
 >their work ridiculed as poorly researched?

<snip>

 >There are several researchers in the UK who think that the US
 >dominates UFO research and that our little isle this side of the
 >pond does not get sufficient recognition, ergo they ignore or
 >play down any American instigated review. Likewise there are
 >some American researchers who think that _everything_ that
 >happens outside the USA is worth little note. Kinda hurts the
 >feelings of very good researchers in Germany, France, Canada,
 >Mexico, Spain, Italy, Greece, and that names only a few
 >countries that are just on  Errol's distribution list, let alone
 >actually involved in honest to goodness genuine UFO research.


List Members,

Don't forget other European contributions to a peer-review
research and academic work, like we are producing in Portugal,
at the University Fernando Pessoa.

Here within the CTEC, we try to get some classes attention, i.e.
Communications Sciences, Social Psychology and Anthropology and
improve a curricular approaches within those areas.

We have yet to produce a graduate thesis and we have plans to
re-analyse all the Portuguese media stereotypes from the
beginning of the UFO era, the individual perceptions and social
representations as well.

This is unique (?), I think, and must be an example of serious
and current scientific work with a fringe area which never got
be assumed by the scientific community. This has nothing to do
with the TV "soap" shows where two groups of believers/non-
believers are pushed against each other under the crowd's
hysteria...


Greetings

Joaquim Fernandes
CTEC
University Fernando Pessoa
Porto






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   Jul > Jul 13

                          Re: Mantell - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:59:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:20:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Mortellaro


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:42:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell
 >>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:55:16 -0500

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Mantell - Clark

<snip>

 >What I found very unconvincing is that ATIC/Menzel's Skyhook
 >balloon would have been moving in a S-W direction, contrary to
 >the ususal winds in this region and especially the jetstream, at
 >higher altitudes - which normally blows to the E. Never-the-
 >less, Menzel makes the following incredible and very
 >unscientific declaration:

 >"But the chances of its being correct [the Skyhook balloon
 >explanation] are overwhelmingly high - infinitely higher than
 >the probability that Mantel died while chasing a spaceship from
 >another planet."

 >From your e-mail Jerry we can now see that ATIC was wrong about
 >the Skyhook balloon launch-site and so was the map of the flight
 >path, for Menzel's phantom balloon, he used to explain the
 >Mantel case and the other UFO sightings in the region that same
 >day.

 >Whe,n in in the afternoon, did the launch of a Skyhook balloon
 >from the site in Minnesota take place on January 7? If it was
 >late afternoon, it would still not explain most of the UFO
 >sightings that day, including Mantell's.

 >If, like Menzel, I can too can state my own opinion about the
 >Mantell case, I would say that the UFO or "spaceship from
 >another planet" is of "infinitely higher" probability of being
 >the correct explanation than a Skyhook balloon (or Venus, mock
 >sun, or any other officially proposed explanation).


Dear Nick Bill-Ask-Us, (can't spell Greek names), List and EBK;

I also read Bruce Make a Bee's (can't spell that moniker either)
comments and I have this to say about that.

There is one element in this research that is being left out.
When the winds are blowing hard up there in the heavyside, a
balloon may change it's shape from teardrop to a more flattened
shape. It's made to be elastic. Blowing hard in the upper
atmosphere, the teardrop shape may become more like a rounded,
horizontal shape. This is what Mantell _may_ have seen.

Just a thought.


Jim






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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:58:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:24:30 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Aldrich


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:28 -0700
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:04:04 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>>From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:56:23 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>>Perhaps now it will be explained, as requested more than once,
 >>>>why that astounding evidence - bearing in mind it relates to one
 >>>>of the most significant 'UFO' incidents - was not publicised by
 >>>>Barry and all who were aware of it.

 >>>Barry Greenwood suppress evidence, pro OR con? _That_ claim I'm
 >>>skeptical of.

 >>Jim,

 >>That's just typical Easton glib oversimplification and inability
 >>to comprehend human complexities. Just as Jan pointed out,
 >>Easton (the exact time interval is irrelevant) quickly concluded
 >>from reading the same documents that we had read, that important
 >>"negative" (to him, alone) evidence was not being reported
 >>(i.e., suppressed) and that everyone should immediately see the
 >>"evidence" (to him, alone) that the lighthouse could explain
 >>many/most sightings, an absurdity not worth furher comment.

 >>The simpler, human, truth of the situation eludes him to this
 >>day. I won't bother to try to explain it to him because I
 >>consider him a hopeless cause. Partly, it involves busy
 >>researchers who never quite pulled together and analyzed all the
 >>information they had, and witnesses fearful for their
 >>reputations and holding back on what they told their superiors.

 >>Rendlesham Forest remains a very strong case indicative of
 >>unidentified craftlike objects in our skies and on the ground,
 >>and also illustrates something the psychosocials cannot
 >>comprehend either: the potency of the ridicule factor, which
 >>they help to potentiate by their skeptibunking.

 >Dick, James & List,

 >I don't know about that case. And I mean that literally.

 >I got involved in it to some extent when Burroughs 'came out' to
 >me and allowed me to guide him to a UFO Conference where he met
 >with Jenny Randles.

 >Over the next few years, I had conversation after conversation
 >with John, and read tome after tome, and found it all so muddled
 >and muddied that I discovered I didn't know anything more about
 >it than when I started.

 >He saw a craft, he didn't see a craft, he touched the craft, he
 >didn't touch the craft, there was a General there, there were no
 >Generals there, Halt backs up the case, Halt backs down on the
 >case.....

 >And then of course, there is the 'Warren Factor'.

 >I tell ya, I just gave up. So you gentlemen will pardon me if I
 >sit this one out.

 >I just wanted to stress that, unless Barry Greenwood has
 >undergone a personality transplant, there's no way he would
 >consciously sit on evidence that went either way.


I really hate this case. The waters are as muddied as possible.
Ditto Roswell.

Nearly as soon as I got the file from Greenwood, I made a copy
for James Easton - prior to even reading the darn thing - and
dispatched it to him and Hall. I was indeed working on other
things.

I noted the statements about the lighthouse. I also have 25+
years experience in the US military. After conferring with Hall
who asked Halt about the statements, I could see that there is a
possibility that such statements were made with the idea of
getting out from under something that could have been
professionally and personally embarrassing. I communicated this
idea to Easton, who has, so far as I know, failed to ever
mention the above.

As for James Easton being an investigator, I will have to say
that he makes a good editor. He has quoted completely butchered
E-mails from me in the past.

As James Speiser points out, there have been several times when
witnesses in this case have been forthcoming, and then, refused
to give any clarifications. At several points there was
supposely a book in preparation. Barry told me he finally gave
up on this case when the principals ceased communicating with
him.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:17:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:26:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:04:07 -0400
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:45:10 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>But don't you understand? There is no evidence that there were
 >>"dozens of people" (precisely four dozen, we are told) on deck.
 >I>f no one was there, there's no one to contradict Barauna.
 >>That's the point.

 >The point is that the people who Barauna claimed were witnesses
 >and therefore on deck at the time, could easily have said, "I
 >was not on the deck so I didn't see it." In other words they
 >could have demonstrated that Barauna was lying about there being
 >other witnesses. This could be a contradiction of Barauna, not a
 >contradiction about the nature, shape, flight of the UFO, but a
 >contradiction on the number of witnesses.

Apart from Viegas, Viegas and Homero, Barauna does not seem to
have given the names of any of the other alleged 45 witnesses.
The ship had a crew of 300. Why would any individual crew member
assume that they must have been one of the people referred to?
Surely most people's reaction would be to think that if they
hadn't seen anything, all the excitement must have happened
while they were swilling out the bilges or something?

Apart from Jerry Clark's unlikely proposal that they might have
made some money from selling their story to the papers -- "I
didn't see anything : Shock Exclusive", I think not -- what
motivation would they have to get themselves unnecesarily
involved in a Brazilian Navy inquiry?

As I comment elsewhere, I'm not at this point wishing to make
any comment on the nature of the photograph itself. This debate
started when I challenged the "multi-witness" nature of the
case. The points are valid whether the photograph is genuine or
not.

I was however surprised, when re-reading details of the case, to
find that after the Almirante Saldanha returned from its voyage
it first docked at the port of Vitoria, where the civilians,
including Barahuna, disembarked. Barahuna continued his journey
home by bus - taking the negatives with him. The ship then lay
up in Vitoria for two days before continuing to Rio.

According to my Reader's Digest World Atlas, Vitoria and Rio de
Janiero are 250 miles apart. I don't know technical details of
the ship, but I can't see it doing that distance in much less
than two days.

Then two days after the ship arrived in Rio a naval official,
Commander Bacellar, turned up at Barahuna's house, and according
to the interview in O Cruzerio "he wanted to see the
enlargements made from the negatives and asked permission to
take them to the naval authorities."

Two days after that Barahuna was invited to the Navy Ministry,
and asked to bring his negatives with him, and they were then
taken away for examination.

So between Barahuna leaving the ship and meeting Bacella, he has
the negatives to himself for five, maybe six days and no-one
else has yet seen a print made from them. It isn't for another
two days, 7 or 8 days after Barahuna left the ship, that the
negatives are taken for examination.

Now even if Barahuna is as honest as the day is long and the
photos are completely kosher, this seems an extraordiary way to
treat what are suposed to be vitally important photographs.

For one thing, whose property were the photographs? They were
taken on a Brazilian Naval vessel by a person working for the
Brazilian Government, and they were developed in the ship's
darkroom. This was, don't forget, a vessel which was undertaking
scientific research as part of an international scientific
project. Yet when he disembarks, Barahuma is allowed to leave
with the negatives as if they were of no more significance than
snaps of his cousin Maria on the beach at Copacabana.

Doesn't it seem a little odd?


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/12/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:14:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:42:00 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/12/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 62
July 12, 2002


**      SYNTHESIS OF POLIOVIRUS FUELS DEBATE
**      SASC REPORT ON INTEL AUTHORIZATION
**      MOSSAD'S HALEVI SPEAKS OUT
**      AN ELECTRONIC CONGRESS


SYNTHESIS OF POLIOVIRUS FUELS DEBATE

The synthesis of infectious poliovirus from mail-ordered
chemical components, newly accomplished by Pentagon-funded
scientists and reported in Science Magazine online yesterday, is
renewing a simmering debate about whether limits are needed on
the conduct or publication of scientific research and, if so,
who should define those limits.

The scientists described the methodology that they used to
assemble the virus in Science Magazine here:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/1072266/DC1

Some initial reactions to the announcement were reported in
"Scientists Create a Live Polio Virus" by Andrew Pollack in the
New York Times here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/12/science/12POLI.html

Anticipating controversy, lead author Jeronimo Cello defended
publication of the virus paper on grounds that "By releasing
this, you alert the authorities... [to] what bioterrorists could
do."  For obvious reasons, this is not a very persuasive
argument.

Penrose Albright, Senior Director for Research and Development
at the White House Office of Homeland Security, said in May that
his Office had "spent many hours" considering whether and how to
seek limitations on scientific research relating to weapons of
mass destruction, but had made little progress.

"We look to the scientific community" to define appropriate
criteria and procedures, Dr. Albright said.  The unstated
implication was that if the scientific community does not
somehow rise to the challenge, then government will eventually
intervene in some clumsy fashion, particularly if there are new
indications that terrorists pursuing these technologies.

One post-September 11 restriction on biological research is a
new requirement, enacted in the recent Bioterrorism Preparedness
Act, to notify the government of the possession of certain
highly lethal biological agents and toxins.  Draft guidance for
providing such notification was published in the Federal
Register today.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/07/fr071202.html


SASC REPORT ON INTEL AUTHORIZATION

The Senate Armed Services Committee, which has jurisdiction over
Pentagon intelligence agencies (that make up the bulk of the
U.S. intelligence community), issued its report on the
Intelligence Authorization Act for 2003 this week.  The brief
report reflects continuing turf struggles between the Armed
Services Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee, with
which it shares jurisdiction. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_rpt/srpt107-208.html

The House version of the intelligence bill continues to languish
in the House Rules Committee.


MOSSAD'S HALEVI SPEAKS OUT

Efraim Halevi, the director of the Mossad, Israel's foreign
intelligence service, recently addressed the NATO North Atlantic
Council in Brussels on his perception of the regional and global
threat environment.  The Council meeting was closed, but the
text of the Halevi speech was published by the Israeli newspaper
Yediot Aharonot on June 28 and translated by the CIA's Foreign
Broadcast Information Service.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/israel/mossad/halevi.html


AN ELECTRONIC CONGRESS

"The events of September 11, 2001, and the subsequent anthrax
incidents have prompted some observers to suggest creating a
capability for a virtual or electronic Congress (e-Congress)
that could function in the event of an emergency," according to
a recent Congressional Research Service assessment.

"The possibility of convening an e-Congress raises a number of
procedural, technical, and resource questions."

See "Electronic Congress: Proposals and Issues" by Jeffrey W.
Seifert and R. Eric Petersen, updated July 2:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21140.pdf


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message:

subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:46:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:30:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Aldrich


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:09:18 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:30:34 -0400

 >>>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:38 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones

<snip>

 >Hi Steve, Sean, All,

 >It doesn't have to be "mission impossible" to get a 'ufological'
 >review board/committee together. Scientists responded to
 >invitations to participate on the 'Sturrock' study panel. A
 >review committee composed of both, _credentialed_ UFO
 >researchers and volunteer participants from the academic
 >community would make a fine review board. One that could command
 >respect from the public and all interested parties.

 >It only takes the will to do so. I know that I don't have the
 >time or the expertise to recruit candidates for such an entity.
 >The day 'somebody' takes on the work, (responsibility for
 >getting the ball rolling) maybe some sort of dialog on the
 >subject will bear fruit and actualize it. Until then...
 >it's all just so much 'rap.'

<snip>

Hi John,

Unfortunately, there is really little stomach for this in
ufology. Please look at the discussions on UpDates, the free
wheeling exchanges of opinions are characterized in other fora
as negative and against ufology. Self-criticism apparently does
not sit well with some people. I think the SOM 1-01 Joint
Statement is a case in point.

Any such Peer Review panel would soon be characterized by the
same people as a debunkers' gang. Kevin has definitely taken
some heat on his posting on the subject.

And least we forget the heat I have taken over Col.- excuse me -
Lt. Col. Corso, saviour of Nation and Mankind. Corso, whose
heroic activities, according to his book, even now keep the evil
ET at bay so that the only thing we have to fear are a few
earthly terrorists. Karl also took some flak on the Senator
Thurman introduction to the Corso book. I just wonder how many
people who jumped on their keyboards to go after Pflock actually
sent in for the packet he got from the Senator's office. Corso
is always offered multiple escape hatches, poor memory, bad
editing, Birnes did it, the Devil did it. Whatever!

I feel that if we are in ufology for real, then, it is our duty
to stand up against these sensation sellers, frauds, and tellers
of tall tales. However, to do so one exposes him/herself to the
even stronger criticism from many quarters whose favorite
stories are examined critically.

I've taken this hard road numerous times, and let me tell you
the flak you get far outweighs the thanks.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                 CI: Russians Urge International Manned Mars

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:32:21 -0400
Subject: CI: Russians Urge International Manned Mars


Cydonian Imperative
7-12-02

Russians Urge International Manned Mars Mission
by Mac Tonnies

for images and links:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Russian scientists have issued an official invitation to NASA
and the European Space Agency (ESA) requesting a commitment to a
crewed mission to the Red Planet by 2014. The mission's
estimated cost is $20 billion (compared to the $200 billion
price calculated by NASA during George Bush, Sr.'s
administration). Using technologies developed by Mars Society
president Robert Zubrin ("The Case for Mars"), I suspect the $20
billion figure can be slashed considerably, especially given the
recent discovery of vast amounts of water ice beneath the
Martian soil.

So should we take the Russians up on their offer? The answer is
yes. A partnership with Russia, whose experience with space
physiology is unmatched by the United States (despite mantric
NASA protests that we "don't know enough" about the effects of
microgravity on the human body), is precisely what a crewed
mission to Mars requires. Furthermore, such a venture will put
the International Space Station to much-needed use, either as a
technological test-bed or perhaps even serving as ready-made
components for a Mars-bound craft. A human presence on Mars in
the early 21st century is crucial if we want to become a
spacefaring species, offering scientific rewards such as the
means to perform a robust search for Martian life (past and
present) and on-site examination of anomalous surface features.

It's vitally important that Mars exploration is cut loose from
JPL's present dogmatic approach. As discussed in previous
additions to this site, NASA's Mars exploration timetable is
utterly dependent on robotic missions of insufficient scientific
scope (i.e., the Mars Sample Return Mission, tentatively slated
for 2010 or even later). The last ten years have witnessed a
great deal of Mars "talk," but with no ultimate strategy or
overriding intention (unless one counts keeping subcontractors
like Malin Space Science Systems employed as planetary science's
raison d'etre.)

Russia's offer of international partnership comes at the right
time; together, we are far more prepared for a crewed journey to
Mars than the United States was prepared to make the relatively
quaint three-day jaunt to the Moon in the 1960s. A trip to Mars
is not wishful science-fantasy; it's completely doable, and the
potential scientific payback is near-infinite (if we can
establish what "killed" Mars, it's possible we can use this
knowledge to spare Earth a similar fate.)


Write to NASA. Write to Congress. If you haven't already, sign
the Mars Society's Mars Petition. Regardless of extraterrestrial
artifacts, Mars promises epic gifts to the human future in space
and on Earth, but only if we seize the moment.

-end-








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:48:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:34:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Hatch


 >From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:32:42 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:40:37 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:22:27 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >>>>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:00:26 -0700

 >>>>Santiago, Chile (witnessed by millions?)

 >>.... It was one that Antonio Huneeus told me about
 >>when he stayed at my house - brought out newspaper clippings and
 >>the like. Might have taken place in the early eighties. Daylight
 >>disk, very high altitude, caught by a live TV camera and
 >>broadcast to the entire country. So there's a MILLION witnesses!

 >Jim,

 >There was indeed a daylight disk seen by thousands, and on TV,
 >over Santiago, Chile. The date was 17 August 1985. The object
 >was identified as a French stratospheric balloon, launched from
 >Pretoria, South Africa, according to Chilean ufologist Diego
 >Zuniga.


Hello John, Jim:

I still have a listing for that exact date in 1985, but from an
airliner SW of Umkal, Argentina. All on board saw it, variously
reported as a cone and/or a banana shape, which shot off colored
rays.

That last feature might simply be a poor translation for an
object slowly rotating and reflecting sunlite from variously
colored surfaces. Local time given was 1930 hours. Supposedly
the object(s) moved quite fast, which might be misperception
also.

If I ever had the Chilean report, I de-listed it. I will likely
have to do the same with Umkal.

- - -

If I were to suggest a multiple witness case to chew on,
it would be Vin-sur-Caramy, France, 14 APR 1957.

The object was unusual, seen at close quarters by 3+1 separate
observers, well investigated etc etc.

Mark Cashman put up an excellent presentation of the Vins case
here:

  http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/report/570414.htm

I haven't seen much skeptical discussion of Vins even
though it came up more than once in the past.

The date, location and atypical descriptions argue
against a psycho-social interpretation, the reported
effects leave me scratching my head.


Thanks

- Larry








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                  Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:07:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:22:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Bruni


 >From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

 >Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

Hi Grant & List members

 >The final twist in this bizarre disclosure saga brings us back
 >to Ward Kimball.  A prominent British photographer by the name
 >of Don Maloney reported in 1995, that in 1972 he had been in the
 >United States and was having dinner with the head of the Disney
 >Studios, and four of the nine original Disney animators. Ward
 >Kimball was one of the four at the table.

 >While this was going on Maloney reported that he was introduced
 >to another man, identified in one account as a "well-known
 >Disney employee." The man offered to show Maloney some unusual
 >film footage at his house. When Maloney saw it he described it
 >as "old footage of UFOs," and "two beings that he was told were
 >aliens." UFO investigator Georgina Bruni interviewed Mike
 >Maloney about his early 1970s encounter at Disney. She described
 >what Maloney told her about the aliens he had been shown on the
 >film:

Grant no doubt read this from my eight page article published in
this month's UFO Magazine (UK) on sale from 27 June, details at
www.ufomag.co.uk which is entitled

"FLYING SAUCERS, ALIENS & DISNEYLAND".
Featuring:

Disney -- The Early Years
The Robertson Panel
Education and Debunking
Wernher von Braun
Alien Encounters
Mike Maloney
Ward Kimball
The Nine

The article features Mike Maloney's other meetings with Ward
Kimball and Disney executives, and numerous other facts about
Disney's connection with the UFO subject.

Thanks also to Bruce Maccabee on this List (copy of my article
mailed to him) for his contribution.


Georgina Bruni








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:01:31 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle


List, All -

I have a proposal to begin, in part, the referee process. I
believe that this List contains the proper credentials to engage
in such an activity. Opinions range from the skeptical of Young
Bob and Bruce Hutchinson to those at the other end such as John
Velez. We have people with advanced degrees in a variety of
subjects, we have trained investigators including those from
MUFON and those who are police officers and detectives. We have
a range of colleagues from around the world, all equally
trained, equally credentialed and who range from skeptic to
believer. We have the peer review participants if we are willing
to tap into that resource.

So, here's what I propose. We produce an article tackling some
aspect of the UFO phenomenon and post it far and wide, letting
our colleagues read it and comment on it, just as would happen
if we had a print journal. I suggest that someone other than the
author collect those statements, strip the addresses and forward
them to the author, who would then carefully read them and make
the additions or corrections to the article. Once all that was
completed, then I would like to see the article distributed far
and wide. There are several websites available to us on the
List. John Velez might be interested in some of the articles if
they were relevant to his work. Philip Mantle's new
beyondpublications.com might be another. There is Alien Zoo and
Royce Meyers' site. Any or all might be interested.

I propose that these articles be offered to every forum
interested in using them whether it is a paying magazine such as
FATE or those provided to membership such as the MUFON JOURNAL
or IUR. I propose that conventions and symposia use the authors
as speakers and that the speaker accept only travel expenses but
donate the honorarium back to the convention organizers so that
they can use the services of other such authors.

In other words, this is not designed to assist researchers in
making money, but is designed to reach consensus on specific
cases so that we don't make the same arguments again and again.
There are any number of cases that have been well researched and
that we continue to debate. This might be a way of moving some
of them to the side so that we can concentrate on those cases
that might lead us to some specific answers and provide answers
for those cases where a plausible solution exists.

To get this ball rolling, I'll even propose the first of these
types of articles. We have been debating the Mantell case
recently. The posts run the gamut, from Jerry Clark's and my
opinion that it was a balloon, to John Velez's suggestion that
he'll believe the witnesses and the family rather than the Air
Force and the researchers. We also have Dick Hall's comment that
suggests there were some interesting additional reports tucked
away in the CUFOS files (I asked Mark Rodegheir a couple of
weeks ago to look those up for me) that might shed some new
light on this case.

I have access to the entire Blue Book file, I have personal
communications from the Mantell family, I have already asked
Mark for his help in retrieving information, and I have written
about the case a couple of times. So, I'll take on the Mantell
case here. (As an aside that probably means nothing at all, I
have a great, great, great, etc. grandmother, Landree Mantel,
yes, with on "L" who was born about 1200 years ago who probably
is not part of our modern Mantell family... I just found it an
interesting coincidence.)

In this sort of an arena, meaning a scientific treatise about
the Mantell case, it is important to be objective rather than
combative. It is important to report the facts but not the
opinions. The conclusions should flow from the data rather than
from the opinions, bias or agenda of the author. I point this
out only because there are a number of us who have written
professionally on UFOs and in many of those writings, we are
making a case for, or against, the UFO. Here, we are attempting
to provide data and draw our conclusions from that specifically.
It is a different form of writing, but one that many of us have
had to do as we completed various degrees.

So, I will put together the Mantell story, based on the witness
statements, the Air Force investigations, the analysis offered
by others both pro and con and try to make it an objective
examination of the case. Once completed, I will post it, to this
List if Errol is willing [Of course!--ebk]. I'll ask someone
else [ebk? --ebk] to be the point of contact for the comments of
others and to forward them to me. Once I have those, I'll
rewrite the article, putting it into a final form, and offer it
to any and all for distribution, asking only that those who post
it, or use it, give proper credit to me as the author. I'll make
no restrictions on the use or the commentary, as long as the
credit is given.

It seems to me that there are several others who could do the
same. John Velez has the dust bunny experiment which would lend
itself to this sort of activity. Bruce Maccabee might want to
put together something on Kenneth Arnold or Gulf Breeze. Sean
Jones had volunteered to write up one of his cases for the
review.

I don't know how long it will take to do the Mantell research.
Part of it lies at the feet of the CUFOS people to get those
additional statements to me (and they have been very responsive
in the past about such things) and part of it depends on my
personal schedule. Once finished, I'll make sure that article is
easily available to all who would like to see it and comment on
it.

In other words, the process is about to begin.

KRandle








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   Jul > Jul 13

                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:35:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:06:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Myers


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:46:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:09:18 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III
 >>>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:30:34 -0400

 >>>>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:38 +0100
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones

 ><snip>

 >>It doesn't have to be "mission impossible" to get a 'ufological'
 >>review board/committee together. Scientists responded to
 >>invitations to participate on the 'Sturrock' study panel. A
 >>review committee composed of both, _credentialed_ UFO
 >>researchers and volunteer participants from the academic
 >>community would make a fine review board. One that could command
 >>respect from the public and all interested parties.

 >>It only takes the will to do so. I know that I don't have the
 >>time or the expertise to recruit candidates for such an entity.
 >>The day 'somebody' takes on the work, (responsibility for
 >>getting the ball rolling) maybe some sort of dialog on the
 >>subject will bear fruit and actualize it. Until then...
 >>it's all just so much 'rap.'

 ><snip>

 >Unfortunately, there is really little stomach for this in
 >ufology. Please look at the discussions on UpDates, the free
 >wheeling exchanges of opinions are characterized in other fora
 >as negative and against ufology. Self-criticism apparently does
 >not sit well with some people. I think the SOM 1-01 Joint
 >Statement is a case in point.

 >Any such Peer Review panel would soon be characterized by the
 >same people as a debunkers' gang. Kevin has definitely taken
 >some heat on his posting on the subject.

 >And least we forget the heat I have taken over Col.- excuse me -
 >Lt. Col. Corso, saviour of Nation and Mankind. Corso, whose
 >heroic activities, according to his book, even now keep the evil
 >ET at bay so that the only thing we have to fear are a few
 >earthly terrorists. Karl also took some flak on the Senator
 >Thurman introduction to the Corso book. I just wonder how many
 >people who jumped on their keyboards to go after Pflock actually
 >sent in for the packet he got from the Senator's office. Corso
 >is always offered multiple escape hatches, poor memory, bad
 >editing, Birnes did it, the Devil did it. Whatever!

 >I feel that if we are in ufology for real, then, it is our duty
 >to stand up against these sensation sellers, frauds, and tellers
 >of tall tales. However, to do so one exposes him/herself to the
 >even stronger criticism from many quarters whose favorite
 >stories are examined critically.

 >I've taken this hard road numerous times, and let me tell you
 >the flak you get far outweighs the thanks.

Greetings,

That's what I'm around for and I will gladly continue exposing
the various and numerous phonies out there to the public and I
don't care how much criticism it generates.

For far too long I think people out there have been too tolerant
of these charlatans that have been capitalizing on this field
and the hard work of some very dedicated people. One of the
major problems, I feel, is that people are afraid to speak out
against these fools for fear of retaliation, being left out of
the loop or for fear of being labeled a debunker.

The longer we allow these idiots to run around and spin their
tales and sell their wares, the longer the serious researchers
will suffer a plethora of con artists, UFO hoaxes, ridicule in
the media, circus side show conferences, and more. The topic of
the frauds out there has been one on the UFO Updates list for
some time now. I frankly think its time to start taking some
serious action. We can sit in the comfort of our home offices
and post until we all have blue screen. Conversation is where it
starts, definitely, but I think the convesation is over and the
time to take action is here.

One thing I would do is to encourage those researchers out there
that are serious to not participate in any conferences when
these jokers are participating in them. Make sure you advise the
conference organizer of the reason that you are not
participating. I would also not participate in any media that
plays host to the frauds out there.

This is a hard thing to do considering this is how the serious
folks get exposure, fund their legitimate research and get their
contact info out there. Though it presents quite a qunadary for
some people, this is just one more thing to do to send the
message out that no more will be tolerated.

I think that with the latest UFO scam being exposed (the Reed
UFO Fraud), this field has a fantastic opportunity to start
making some changes for the better and eliminating those that
completely discredit the field. The momentum for change is still
there so long as people participate in making change - if you
want change, you've got to make it happen.

Again, I will continue for as long as I can in exposing these
clowns.


Standing By For Flak,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Jul > Jul 13

                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:57:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:08:24 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:46:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:09:18 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

<snip>

 >>It doesn't have to be "mission impossible" to get a 'ufological'
 >>review board/committee together. Scientists responded to
 >>invitations to participate on the 'Sturrock' study panel. A
 >>review committee composed of both, _credentialed_ UFO
 >>researchers and volunteer participants from the academic
 >>community would make a fine review board. One that could command
 >>respect from the public and all interested parties.

 >>It only takes the will to do so. I know that I don't have the
 >>time or the expertise to recruit candidates for such an entity.
 >>The day 'somebody' takes on the work, (responsibility for
 >>getting the ball rolling) maybe some sort of dialog on the
 >>subject will bear fruit and actualize it. Until then...
 >>it's all just so much 'rap.'

 ><snip>

 >Unfortunately, there is really little stomach for this in
 >ufology. Please look at the discussions on UpDates, the free
 >wheeling exchanges of opinions are characterized in other fora
 >as negative and against ufology. Self-criticism apparently does
 >not sit well with some people. I think the SOM 1-01 Joint
 >Statement is a case in point.

 >Any such Peer Review panel would soon be characterized by the
 >same people as a debunkers' gang. Kevin has definitely taken
 >some heat on his posting on the subject.

 >And least we forget the heat I have taken over Col.- excuse me -
 >Lt. Col. Corso, saviour of Nation and Mankind. Corso, whose
 >heroic activities, according to his book, even now keep the evil
 >ET at bay so that the only thing we have to fear are a few
 >earthly terrorists. Karl also took some flak on the Senator
 >Thurman introduction to the Corso book. I just wonder how many
 >people who jumped on their keyboards to go after Pflock actually
 >sent in for the packet he got from the Senator's office. Corso
 >is always offered multiple escape hatches, poor memory, bad
 >editing, Birnes did it, the Devil did it. Whatever!

Howdy Jan,

You responded:

 >I feel that if we are in ufology for real, then, it is our duty
 >to stand up against these sensation sellers, frauds, and tellers
 >of tall tales.

Amen. And I and several others have done so diligently and as
responsibly as possible from day one. The problem is; some see
the venue as a bully pulpit or platform from which to 'make a
name' for themselves as opposed to concentrating their efforts
towards making intelligent or meaningful contributions.

 >However, to do so one exposes him/herself to the
 >even stronger criticism from many quarters whose favorite
 >stories are examined critically.

Hope you don't mind but I have a pet peeve that I'd like air out
here. Thanks for providing the oportunity.  :)

In response to your comment above:

Abductees most of all, Jan! Just look at all the heat and abuse
that has been _methodically_ heaped on me simply for questioning
or criticizing another abductee. Like big city cops and the
'blue wall of silence' I am not supposed to question or critique
another abductee because we are supposedly members of the same
club.

BS!

Nothing wrong with asking hard questions or confronting
misinformation. I've done so all along and I will continue to do
so as long as I am an active participant in this forum. I see it
as my responsibility.

 >I've taken this hard road numerous times, and let me tell you
 >the flak you get far outweighs the thanks.

Flak is nothing. I've had folks come after me with nuclear
tipped 'character assassination' bombs, their acquaintances and
even their family members!  <LMAO>

Still here hacking away at the 'Wall' in spite of em.  :)

Here's for the day when the reality of UFOs becomes common
knowledge. For the day when ufologists, UFO 'Internet
personalities,' and the much maligned and dreaded UFO skeptics
will no longer be required.

I don't know about you but, I'm dying to lay down the Stone.


Warm regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Jul > Jul 13

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:39:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:11:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors


My apologies to the List for taking so long to throw in my two
cents. OK, a dime. I've been battling an eye disease, so the
efforts to post are herculean at the moment and will be far and
few between for awhile.

Me-thinks John Rimmer can be as skeptical as he wants to be, but
his skepticism is based on absolutely nothing but opinion,
forged from bits and pieces; not the entirety of anything. Known
as selective B.S. in the common colonial vernacular.

After all, Mr. Rimmer is not, under any stretch of the
imagination, a person who devotes his efforts entirely to
ufological matters. Thus, his skeptical inclination regarding
ufology is redundant... and, isn't he making money off the work
of ufologists? Seems pretty tacky to be hammering those who feed
him and decidedly most uncouth, un-British-like behavior.

But then again, who said cheap, tacky, hit and run skeptics were
noble as they pass whatever, while sitting on their Thrones of
Skepticsim? And further, what twisted logic is there for a
skeptic to be involved in publishing Fortean material they don't
believe? Most assuredly one for Ripley!

By the way, John, I appreciate the nice review of Mike's and my
book, 'Captain Edward J. Ruppelt: Summer of the Saucers-1952',
in 'Magonia'. I don't think I understood your one criticism,
though... whereby we didn't include UK ufology issues in the
book. Gosh, I thought our book was about Capt. Ruppelt and his
tenure at Project Blue Book... was the Throne involved, or did
we miss something there? (asked Rhetorically... I can rarely
read the posts at the moment anyway, and a reply would take
forever).


Thumb in your eye,

Wendy Connors








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   Jul > Jul 13

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 28

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:13:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:17:47 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 28


My apology to Joe and readers for the late delivery of
this weeks bulletin. This was caused by several problems
at this end - John.

========================================================

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 28
July 9, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


DAYLIGHT DISC SIGHTED
IN THE PHILIPPINES


       On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 1:30 p.m., Eleazar H.
Allen and his fellow workers at the Dole Philippines
plantation in Polomolok, on the southern island of
Mindanao, spied a bright gleam in the southern sky.
Looking closer, Eleazar reported, "We saw it was coming
from the south.  It was about the size of an (A320)
Airbus without wings.  It was approaching at high speed
in our direction for at least five seconds, and then it
was abruptly backing away at a speed ten times faster
until it was gone from sight."
       He added that the UFO "was silvery with metal strips
along the back, like a wingless jumbo jet.  It was
approaching at about 150 miles per hour (250 kilometers
per hour) and departing at ten times that speed (1,500
miles per hour or 2,500 kilometers per hour--J.T.)."
       Polomolok is on the west side of the island, just
south of Cotabato.  The large island of Mindanao is the
southernmost in the Philippines.  (Email Form Report)


V-SHAPED UFO SEEN EVERY
NIGHT IN SRI LANKA

       "Sri Lankan scientists says UFOs reported by
villagers" in the north central region of the island
nation in southern Asia "are being confirmed by a team of
observers."
       "Hundreds of people in north central Sri Lanka have
reported seeing a blue-white light several times over the
past few weeks."  (For the initial report on the UFO flap
in Sri Lanka, see UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 25,
"Disc-shaped UFO sighted nightly over Sri Lanka," page
5.)
       "A mysterious blue ball was first seen over the
historical ruins of Dimbulagala, which date (back) to the
First Century A.D."
       "Now a team which travelled to the area has seen the
UFO on three days, reports Professor Chandara Jayaratne,
an astrophysicist at the University of Colombo."
       "They say the V-shaped beam of light seemingly
travels at high speed between locations and makes a
buzzing noise similar to a bee."
       "Professor Chandara told the Daily News: 'These
sightings have been confirmed by a group of keen
observers.'"
       Sri Lankan writer Sanjeeva Bandara also "testified
to the accuracy of the accounts provided by the
witnesses."
       "An unnamed member of the observing party said:
'More than 100 villagers have seen the UFO.  In general,
we cannot consider these stories as being fabricated.
The light beam is unlike any other we have seen
before...(The UFO) rotated, suddenly disappeared and
reappeared a few seconds later from a place 300 to 400
meters (1,000 to 1,330 feet) away from the place where it
was initially seen.'"
       "'We camped near the Parakrama Samudhrya (mountain).
Dense jungle stretched out to the far end, and the light
beam came from the jungle.  Therefore, we could not go
out to investigate.  Out of our preliminary
investigations, it turned out to be an object capable of
emitting a V-shaped beam of intense illumination.'"
       "'The villagers, including an Advanced Level
student, told us the flying object is capable of moving
at a very high velocity and, when it is travelling at a
lower height (altitude), it makes a sound similar to a
sound made by a bee.  And it could change its direction
to avoid colliding with trees.  For three consecutive
days, we observed the same UFO.'"  (See the Sri Lankan
newspaper, Daily News, of Colombo, the national capital,
for July 4, 2002, "Observers confirm UFO reports."  Many
thanks to John Hayes and Daniel Munoz for the newspaper
article.)


MORE CATTLE MUTILATIONS
APPEAR IN ARGENTINA

       Argentina's wave of cattle mutilations continued
last week with more cases reported to the authorities in
nine provinces.  In addition, for the first time, cases
were reported in Cordoba and Corrientes provinces.
       "The carcass of an Aberdeen Angus cow missing parts
of the body was found last weekend (June 29 and 30, 2002)
in a field located 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from the town
of Embajador Martini, (in the) province of La Pampa."
       "The professionals who analyzed the cow verified
that it was missing part of its tongue and mammary glands
and that its left maxillary (jawbone) had been sectioned
off."
       "A mysterious situation also occurred to the north
of the Pampan town of Rancul at the Los Caldenes ranch,
where a cow had died of natural causes in the afternoon
only to be found with incisions on its jaw and missing
its tongue the next day."
       "The province of Entre Rios has also been the
epicenter of three events. In a field located 2
kilometers from Route 11, a rancher found a 170-kilogram
heifer and a 500-kilogram milk cow some 800 meters (2,640
feet) from each other, both presenting the notorious
incision marks."
       Last week, veterinarian Horacio Volpe "was summoned
by the owner of a rural property located 25 kilometers
(15 miles) from Carhue," in Buenos Aires province, "where
an 8 or 9-month old calf showing the trademark incisions
recorded in the area had been found."
       "While Volpe preferred not to field a theory, he
pointed out that an employee of the property told him
that his brother, who was cultivating (a farm field)
during the night 'saw some intense red lights, as though
from a laser, moving very quickly across the
countryside.'"
       Another "discovery was made Saturday (June 22, 2002)
at the farm Don Angel in the vicinity of Hortensia by
foreman Carlos A. Llantada, who made the report to the
authorities."
       "According to the claim and the police report, as
well as the report of the veterinarian who acted as the
expert, the animal found was an 18-month-old female
weighing 280 kilograms, presenting a right lateral
incision on both maxillaries, the extraction of its
tongue and the right ocular sphere (eye).  The expert was
unable to determine the cause of death."
       "This allows the case to be placed with similar
mysteries of Bahia Blanca, Pehuaje and other parts of
(Buenos Aires) province, which has caused consternation
at the national level, leading some to think it could be
'the handiwork of aliens,' of 'vernacular mythological
creatures' like the Chupacabras, or unknown scientific
experiments and even the deeds of a sect involving
sacrifices and pagan rites.  There is talk of perfect
incisions, the absence of tracks surrounding the
mutilated animals and everything imaginable, even
associations to a mystery that appears on (the TV show)
The X-Files in the United States."
       Finally, "the cattle mutilation phenomenon has
reached Corrientes (province).  The town of Bella Vista
was shaken by the news that a mutilated cow had been
found in a field, showing marks similar to those found on
mutilated animals elsewhere in the country--in other
words, the animal was missing 'organs and muscular
mass.'"
       "Lisandro Buzzo, owner of Las Azahares ranch,
located in the Juan Diaz section, made the corresponding
report to the Sheriff's Office Thursday (June 27, 2002),
prompting officials to visit the location immediately
with personnel from SENASA and the National Institute for
Livestock Technology (Spanish acronym: INTA) to
investigate the event."
       "According to the report issued by the Provincial
Police, the personnel reporting to the site attested to
the absence of 'both ocular spheres (eyes), an orifice in
the cow with total absence of the genital apparatus and
rectum, total absence of the large and small intestines,
absence of both kidneys, lack of muscular mass in the
hindquarters up to the elevation of the tibia (without
tearing the hide--S.C.) and a ribcage orifice that does
not quite reach the thoracic cavity.  The official report
added that no traces of blood or any other sign that
violence took place were found on the site.  Researchers
estimated that the event took place between Wednesday
night (June 26) and early morning Thursday (June 27,
2002)."
       "Researchers at the Universidad Nacional de Rio
Cuarto (UNRC) reiterated yesterday (Tuesday, July 2,
2002) that the calf found mutilated yesterday in
Berrotaran presented 'clean incisions' in its hide, thus
discarding 'the possibility of' any attack by predators."
       "Meanwhile, another mutilated bovine, missing eyes
and genitalia--characteristics similar to the finds in
other provinces--was dicovered late yesterday (Tuesday,
July 2, 2002) in the town of San Pedro, department of
Santa Rosa, 150 kilometers (90 miles) from the provincial
seat," Cordoba.  The National Health and Agroalimentary
Service (Spanish acronym: SENASA) confirmed that 'a
commission is working in the area to determine the
discovery of a mutilated cow."  (See the Argentinian
newspapers La Nueva Provincia of Bahia Blanca for June
27, 2002; Diario El Oeste for June 26, 2002, "Mutilated
bovine found at Hortensia," Vox Populi of Misiones for
June 30, 2002, "First case involving a mutilated cow in
Corrientes," and La Voz del Interior of Cordoba for July
3, 2002, "SENASA explanation found unconvincing in Rio
Cuarto."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Gloria
Coluchi, Alicia Rossi y Proyecto Catent para esos
articulos de diario.)


SORCERY BLAMED IN THIRD
HORSE MUTILATION

       Argentina reported its third horse mutilation last
week.  But people in the area believe that sorcery, not
aliens, rogue surgeons or the CIA, is responsible for the
gruesome slaying.
       "'This is a matter of Mandinga.  No animal can die
that way.  It didn't scream.  Something weird is going
on,' said Maria Eusebia, referring to the stange case
involving a mutilated horse missing an eye, its tongue
and its anus."
       "It was found by residents of La Chiquita, located 8
kilometers (5 miles) east of Presidencia Roque Suarez,
located on National Route 16."
       "Stories received yesterday (Saturday, June 29,
2002) regarding the event made evident the consternation
felt by local residents, who point out that these events
are 'the work of practicioners of red magic.'"
       "On the night of the alleged mutilation, 'the dogs
slept like bears and didn't bark, despite the fact that
they slept right next to the horse,' added Maria
Eusebia."
       "Daniel Acuna, who happened to pass this location on
his way to work in the early morning hours, claims having
seen red lights over some trees on many occasions, 'like
an evil light, which I was told are those who practice
red magic.'"
       "The event...occurred one month ago, but the case
was made known only on Friday (June 28, 2002), after the
horse had been found.  'They took out the eye completely,
but there was no bleeding.  They also took out its tongue
and anus, but there was no blood on the ground, nothing
at all,' said Emilia Lopez, another resident of the ranch
on which Agustina Torres, the horse's owner, lives."
       Sra. Torres "'in order not to suffer, since she
misses (the horse) so much, went off to Quitilipi,' said
locals."
       "Where the mutilation took place, located some 8
kilometers (5 miles) from Saenz Pena, almost on the
tracks of the Belgrano Railroad, there are several
neighboring ranch dwellings in which the horse--named
Dominga by the local children--'was like a pet.'"
       "'He was tame, good, young and had just grown out of
colthood,' said Adriana, a young girl saddened by the
horse's fate."
       "One of the owner's children, Diego Torres, is still
amazed: 'It's not normal.  We buried him because here in
the countryside we hear nothing about the Chupacabras
which the TV talks about.  But the incisions are perfect.
There was no blood.  And, if the perpetrators were human,
the horse should have whinnied a little because it's not
going to let its tongue be cut out.  It's also weird
because the dogs didn't bark, either."  (See the
Argentinian newspaper Norte for June 30, 2002, "Residents
of La Chiquita blame animal mutilations on 'red magic.'"
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Pablo Omastott para eso
articulo de diario.)


MORE UFOs OVER BUENOS
AIRES PROVINCE, ARGENTINA

       "A family from Smith," in Argentina's southern
Buenos Aires province, "with whom we spoke on the
telephone and (who) made a request for anonymity, saw a
UFO twice over the town."
       "According to the testimony of a resident of the
community, she was on her way home from running errands
around 7:30 p.m. when she saw lights in the sky traveling
from northeast to west, issuing bright flashes which cast
their light downward.  When she reached home, she called
her husband and her son Guillermo, who was also arriving
at the same time, so they could witness the phenomenon."
       "But," according to the witness, "this was not the
only time that the strange phenomenon was sighted.  At 10
p.m., they saw three lights with the same
characteristics, aiming multicolored rays down towards
the ground, moving in the opposite direction from the
earlier (7:30 p.m.) sighting."
       "There is even an unverified version of the same
phenomenon having been seen in Moctezuma and Bellocq,"
two other towns of the province.  (See the Argentinian
newspaper Diario El Oeste for June 26, 2002, "UFOs seen
over Smith."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria
Coluchi para eso articulo de diario.)


SENASA SAYS CATTLE DEATHS
HAVE "NATURAL CAUSES"

       Argentina's "National Health and Agroalimentary
Service (Spanish acronym: SENASA) made known today
(Wednesday, July 3, 2002) the report contracted with the
Universidad Nacional del Centro (UNICEN) in Tandil, which
concludes that the studies performed on dead and
mutilated animals have established that the deaths are
the result of natural causes and the injuries were
provoked by predators, among them a rodent of the genus
Oxymcterus, known as the hocicudo rojizo (red-muzzle
mouse--J.T.) whose population has recently increased and
whose nutritional habits have changed."
       "The report points out that the deaths of 20 animals
tested, taken from livestock facilities in the Buenos
Aires (province) districts of Olavarra, Tandil, Tres
Arroyos, Coronel Pringles, Coronel Dorrego and Balcarce
are 'due to natural causes and can be attributed to
metabolic or infectious diseases which occur frequently
at this time of year,' according to UNICEN's chancellor
Dr. Nestor Auza."
(Editor's Note:  Early July is the middle of winter in
Argentina and the other countries of the southern
hemisphere.)
       "The report points out that 'it was ascertained
through direct observation, and under a stereoscopic
magnifying glass, that the lesions on the animals' hides
and organs were produced by predators' such as rodents
and foxes.'"
       "Field observations confirmed 'the presence of
rodents around the carcasses, inside the carcasses and at
the moment the animal tissue was ingested.'  Some of
these rodents were trapped and subjected to laboratory
testing, where they showed 'a particular voraciousness
for the organs provided' in the experiment."
       However, not all of the veterinarians in Argentina
are buying SENASA's explanation.
       "'It's hard for me to believe in such an attack by
rodents on dead cows,' said Jaime Polop.  The UNRC
(Universidad Nacional de Rio Cuarto) specialist reports
that red-muzzled rodents (mice) ingest barely 10 to 12
grams of nourishment (at a single feeding--J.T.) and that
in order to consume the mutilated cow tissue, 'it would
be necessary to have hundreds of rodents acting in
concert.'"
       "'The Oxymcterus is habitually found in very low
numbers among regional rodent populations, which is why
it is hard to imagine a massive attack on diseased cows.
This mouse species is often found near water courses
(rivers and creeks--J.T.), and I understand that this is
not the case where the Berrotan animal was found,' Polop
said."  (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Gloria Coluchi
y Alicia Rossi para la afirmacion de SENASA.)
(Editor's Comment: So apparently Oxymcterus underwent a
sudden spontaneous mutagenic change enabling the species
to conceptualize a straight line, chew along a straight
line even though they have the wrong dentition to do so,
and consume up to 700 times its customary diet of meat at
a single feeding.  Somehow it seems easier to believe in
space aliens.)


MYSTERIOUS FLASH LIGHTS UP
THE SKY IN THE UKRAINE

       "A meteor may have caused the flash that alarmed an
Israeli pilot flying over the Ukraine, Ukrainian
officials said Saturday (July 6, 2002), insisting it was
not a missile."
       "An El Al pilot reported seeing a missile fired from
the ground" while flying "over central Ukraine during a
Tel Aviv-to-Moscow flight on Thursday night (July 4,
2002).  Israeli officials said the missile exploded a few
miles from the plane."
       "Pilots of two other planes flying over the
Dnipropetrovsk region reported seeing a big blue fireball
that resembled a missile explosion at the same time, the
ITAR-Tass and Interfax news agencies cited Ukrainian
aviation officials as saying Saturday."
       "The incident was a sensitive issue in the Ukraine
because in October (2001) an errant missile fired from a
Ukrainian military base shot down a Russian plane,
killing all 78 people aboard, most of them immigrants to
Israel."
       "Israeli officials were especially concerned about
the incident because it came the same day an Egyptian
immigrant shot and killed two people at the El Al ticket
counter at Los Angeles International Airport" in southern
California, USA.  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for
July 7, 2002, "Ukraine blames flash on meteor," page 6A.
Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for the original news
story.)


STRANGE PHENOMENON
APPEARS IN JERUSALEM

       Two Hasidic Jews were arrested Tuesday (July 2,
2002) when they attempted to scale the Wailing Wall in
Jerusalem's Old City in order to have a closer look at a
strange phenomenon on the millenia-old structure.
       "Jews are flocking to the Wailing Wall in the Old
City of Jerusalem to view a phenomenon that is
interpreted as a sign of the coming of the Messiah. A wet
spot measuring 40 by 10 centimeters (15 by 4 inches)
appeared on the face of the Wall.  It has led religious
Jews to proclaim that it is a portent of the Messiah's
imminent arrival."
       The phenomenon began on Saturday, June 29, 2002--the
Sabbath--when, shortly after sunrise, Hasidic Jews
praying at the Wall noticed water seeping from the smooth
face of the stone 4 meters (13 feet) above the ground.
       The seepage has continued without interruption ever
since.
       However, not everyone believes that the flow is
"miraculous."
       "An archaeologist of the Authority for Antiquities
of Israel says there may be an ancient water pipe within
the Temple Mount which has ruptured, and that this is the
cause of the damp spot."
(Editor's Comment: If that were the case, the seepage
would be at ground level, not several feet above ground
where the man-made wall touches empty air.)
       But Hasidic Jews who have witnessed the seepage
claim "the Wall is weeping" and cite an ancient prophecy,
which proclaims, "When you see water coming through the
stone, know that such is a sign that the coming of the
Messiah is nigh."
       The phenomenon's appearance just days before Tisha
B'Av (the Ninth of Av on the Hebrew calendar,
corresponding to July 17--J.T.) is considered
significant.
This is because the Ninth of Av is the date of tumultuous
events in Jewish history.
       July 17 was the day Sennacherib, the king of
Assyria, captured Jerusalem and destroyed the First
Temple in the Seventh Century B.C.
       July 17, 70 A.D. was the day the Roman general Titus
and the Tenth Legion sacked and destroyed the Second
Temple, of which the Wailing Wall is the only piece left
standing.
       July 17, 1941 is the day the Nazis began mass
executions at Oswieicim, Poland in the concentration camp
they called Auschwitz.  (See the Jerusalem Post for July
3, 2002 and July 5, 2002.  Many thanks to Rick Wiles and
Ayesha al-Khatabi for these news reports.)
(Editor's Note:  This type of phenomenon is called a flow
in Forteana.  Sometimes they are associated with
religious sites, such as the flow that appeared in the
church at Ars in southern France, after St. Jean Vianney,
the Cure d'Ars (Parish Priest of Ars--J.T.) was laid to
rest.  Another sprung from the ground in October 1921 at
Cova da Iria, near Fatima, Portugal, four years after
Lucia Abbobora dos Santos, Francisco Marto and Jacinta
Marto last saw the Virgin Mary.  Then there was the
mysterious flow from an acacia tree in La Feria, 11 miles
(18 kilometers) west of Harlingen, Texas in 1972, which
has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
The current phenomenon in Jerusalem marks the first time
a Fortean flow has taken place at a long-established
religious site.)


THREE UFOs SIGHTED OVER
MADISON, WISCONSIN

       On Tuesday, July 2, 2002, at 10:30 p.m., the
eyewitness reported, "I caught a brief glimpse of three
bright yellow-orange lights in a perfectly triangular
formation--fairly close together--streaking from north to
south across the sky" over Madison (population 208,054),
the state capital of Wisconsin.
       "It took, in my estimation, less than two seconds
for these lights to move across the entire length of the
sky.  My first thought is that it was a shooting star.  I
dismissed this idea because there were those three lights
moving in a perfect triangular formation."
       "It continued to cross the sky.  About ten minutes
later, I saw the exact same formation of triangular
lights streak across the sky at what seemed like the same
speed, moving in essentially the same direction."  (Many
thanks to John Hoppe of UFO Wisconsin for this report.)


BLACK HELICOPTERS ARE
ACTIVE ON FOURTH OF JULY

       Question:  What has six rotors, is colored
camoflauged grey with stripes, and flies at treetop level
in Rehoboth, Massachusetts (population 7,600)?
       Answer: The newest breed of "black helicopters"
which were active in the USA just before and after the
Fourth of July national holiday.
       On Thursday, June 20, 2002, a couple living in a
suburb of Minneapolis, Minnesota reported, "My husband,
neighbor and I were out in the backyard last weekend in
the late afternoon when we suddenly became aware of the
sound of an approaching helicopter.  We don't live too
far from a hospital with a helicopter landing pad, so we
assumed that was what it was.  But the sound grew louder
and louder with two low-flying, totally-black helicopters
that flew right overhead, heading towards downtown
Minneapolis.  I had always though the black helicopters
were a myth...until now."
       On Friday, June 28, 2002, Gwendolyn D. spotted
"black helicopters at night, flying without navigation
lights, going from north to south at low altitude over
the Genesee River" in Gates, N.Y. (population 29,275),"
about 5 miles (8 kilometers) west of Rochester.
       "One or two had spotlights aimed at the ground,"
Gwen added.
       Beginning on Tuesday, June 25, 2002, UFO Roundup
correspondent Mary Lou Jones-Drown began hearing "very
loud helicopter noise" in Rehoboth, Mass.  From
interviewing witnesses, she learned that mysterious
helicopters, black and otherwise, "equipped with
spotlights" were seen flying over the Palmer River School
on the north side of Route 44, just west of Rehoboth
Village.
       "I heard helicopter noise in the early morning.
Looked up but did not see any helicopters."
       A farm owner in South Rehoboth told Mary Lou that
"two black helicopters with spotlights were flying in
formation above the trees.  The choppers came from the
southeast, from Mount Hope Bay in Swansea (Mass.)."
       Another witness told Mary Lou about sighting a
strange helicopter on Friday and Saturday, July 5 and 6,
2002, described as "it was like grey camoflauge or a
striped helicopter type."  (Email reports, plus many
thanks to Mary Lou Jones-Drown for the Rehoboth
sightings.)
(Editor's Comment:  While black helicopter patrols near
major cities like Minneapolis and Rochester, N.Y. around
the holiday are understandable, I can't figure out what
they're doing in rural Rehoboth.  The town was a boyhood
hangout of H.P. Lovecraft a century ago (1902) and has
the reputation of being the ghost-and-poltergeist capital
of the Comedy Commonwealth.  See UFO Roundup, volume 4,
number 27 for October 28, 1999, "1994: Rehoboth's Haunted
Cemetery," page 8.  What is there in Rehoboth to draw
repeated nighttime visitations from the black
helicopters?)


  From the UFO Files...

1920: HIGH COTTON

       It was September of 1920, and the cotton harvest was
in full swing on the farms around Bethel, North Carolina,
a small town on Highway 13 about 60 miles (100
kilometers) east of Raleigh.
       For Nicora B. and her family, day laborers in the
cotton fields, the harvest was the businest time of the
year.  From sunrise until sunset, 14-year-old Nicora and
her family walked methodically down the rows, plucking
the white bolls from the cotton plants and stuffing them
in their trailing tote sacks.
       But the 1920 harvest was one Nicora would never
forget.  Before her death in 1991, she shared details of
the strange event with her grandson, Gil Rodriguez.
       Early one afternoon, Nicora, her mother Annie B. and
other relatives were picking "high cotton" off the taller
plants when they "saw something large flying over the
farm."
       "'It looked like two pie pans placed together, lip
to lip,'" Nicora recalled.
       The silvery UFO "zigzagged across the sky and," in
Nicora's words, "'came to rest in the field' in front of
them."
       "Two little bald white men got out and pointed short
sticks at them."  She reminisced, "'They were the size of
little boys but their faces seemed older.'"
       "One of the little bald men began digging and poking
in the dirt with something like a shovel and put some
dirt into a bag.  He then took a small plant and placed
it in the bag also."
       "Both little men then backed up one after the other
and entered the pie-pan-shaped thing, still pointing the
sticks at them as they walked backwards."
       "Presently the UFO 'took off and zigzagged back in
the direction it came.'"
       Nicora told her grandson that "'We all thought it
had something to do with the government.'"
(Editor's Note:  Not likely, Nicora.  On October 2, 1919,
President Woodrow Wilson suffered a catastrophic stroke
that rendered him completely paralyzed on his left side.
By September 1920, Wilson was still a complete invalid,
and the USA was being run by a strange--and unelected--
triumvirate consisting of First Lady Edith Galt Wilson,
the president's chief of staff Joseph P. Tumulty and the
president's personal physician, Dr. Cary Grayson.  For
details about this strange period in American history,
see Mrs. Levine's great new book, Edith and Woodrow.)
       Gil Rodriguez added, "She (Nicora) mentioned that
they (the UFO occupants) looked the size of 8 to 10-year-
old children, and the UFO was bigger than an automobile.
They talked about it for a little while and then went
back to work.  She said they had to get back to work to
make their day's wages."  (See Filer's Files #9  for
2002.  Many thanks to Gil Rodriguez for the additional
information via email interview.)


       The movie Men In Black II is now in theaters, and it
was well worth the wait. Your editor won't give any plot
secrets away.  Suffice to say it involves an old case
from 1978, plus secrets from K's past and the trouble
that ensues when Zed's ex-wife Serleena comes to Earth.
Best of all...Frank sings!!!  Wait till you hear his
version of Who Let the Dogs Out?  That pug can hold a
note longer than the Chase Bank.  Don't miss this one,
readers.

       And we'll be back next week with more UFO,
paranormal and Fortean news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home-- UFO
Roundup."  See you next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from
UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided
that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name
and list the date of issue in which the item first
appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and
UFO Sightings Italia.

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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 14

                  Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:47:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:40:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Mortellaro


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:39:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>rom: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:54:23 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39


 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:33:48 -0400

 >>>I just hope that when the pelicans fly overhead they won't drop
 >>>anything.

 >>Bruce,

 >>Too late! We have already been showered with Pelican poop for
 >>several days now. The flock is frantically flying around with
 >>flapping wings, creating a flurry of flapdoodle.

 >Ouch!

 >Time to break out the umbrella!

Hello Bruce, Dick, List and EBK;

There is an old story about a British Explorer back in the late
19th Century. The man is at the Explorer's Club, puffing a huge
cigar and sipping a brandy when someone of his fellow explorers
tells of the Foo Bird. It's a wild bird in the Amazon, and
every time an explorer sets out to find it, he never returns.
Well, our hero decides he will find the Foo Bird and bring back
a tail feather to prove it. And he _will_ return.

Off he goes to darkest Africa, learning of a tribe of natives
who know where the bird lives, mates and makes it's nest. But a
major caveat is given, the chief tells him, "Never, _ever_,
remove the guano of the Foo Bird if indeed he poops on you. For
in doing so, you will die.

The explorer finds the nest, and takes a feather out of it, when
suddenly the mamma Foo drops a huge load on our intrepid
explorer.

Finally, after _years_, the explorer makes it back to his club
and cannot be recognized for his clothing is filthy, his skin
black and the man stinks and reeks from not bathing.

Well, Dicky, the moral of this story, the moral of this song, is
not only that one should never be where one does not belong, but
the best advice off all, the one this allegory defines is:

"When the Foo sh*ts, wear it."

The END.

Morty







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   Jul > Jul 14

              Re: Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles -

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:51:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:41:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:35:47 +0200
 >Subject: Thunderstorms May Have Caused Crop Circles

 >Source: Ananova

 >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_623751.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscovery
.phenomena

 >Stig

 >***

 >Thunderstorms may have caused crop circles

 >**

 >Meteorologists are investigating whether fierce thunderstorms
 >caused crop circles in parts of Canada.




Hi Stig,

Thanks for forwarding this. As per my previous notice on this on
July 9, below are some other links as well which I've also added
to the CCCRN web site. From what I've heard so far, the circles
were messy and rough looking, what may be expected from weather
phenomena. It is still interesting to me though, for the purpose
of comparison studies with other 'standard' crop formations. If
anybody on the list has more info, please let me know, I am
still tracking down photos etc. as well as the specific location
of the ones in New Brunswick (the ones in PEI were at Grand
River) as I've had time to do so this week, with a wacky work
schedule! There was some footage shown on Global Maritimes TV
apparently as well.

Paul Anderson
Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada



'Thunderstorms May have Caused Crop Circles', Ramdac, July 8, 2002
http://www.ramdac.org/index.php?id=114

'Maritimes Report Crop Circles', Canadian Press, July 7, 2002
http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=5BCF9154-F5BE-4A7E-99BD-32F0704AF
A88

'Crop Circles Reported in N.B., P.E.I.', Canadian Press, July 7, 2002
http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=354DE533-A054-4DCF-8DD0-7C7B89968
455

'Crop Circles Left by Storm', Journal-Pioneer (Summerside, PEI),
July 6, 2002
http://www.journalpioneer.com/article.cfm?showid=1429

'Storm Lashes Island, Pelting Charlottetown with 72 mms of Rain,
Funnel Clouds and Crop Circles Reported', Journal-Pioneer
(Summerside, PEI), July 6, 2002
http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=F0036E5C-90E1-4914-AF65-DDD59F5D2
3FD

'N.B., P.E.I. Report Crop Circles after Fierce Thunderstorms this Week',
Canadian Press, July 6, 2002
http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=25F651D1-F034-42E4-89A1-5DEA27DB3
A40









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   Jul > Jul 14

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:22:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:42:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:11 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>But of course John can't handle the
 >>anxiety of that sort of uncertainty. After all, it leaves open
 >>the prospect that a large, Saturn-shaped structure was indeed
 >>photographed from the deck of a Brazilian ship in view of many
 >>witnesses, and that therefore psychosocial ufology is headed for
 >>history's rubbish heap.

 >Looking through what I have written, can you find anywhere where
 >I have said that a large Saturn-shaped object - "structure" is
 >begging the question a bit, isn't it - was not photographed over
 >Trindade Island? In fact I think at one point I said I was open
 >to the possibility that it was some sort of natural phenomena.
 >But in Jerry's view, anything other than "it's a spaceship" is
 >debunking.

<snip>

 >And it seems, there are no conceivable circumstances under which
 >"students of the UFO phenomenon" (not counting the likes of me,
 >presumably) will be prepared to accept any challenge to their
 >sacred texts.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

 >From Jerry Clark's last post on the Mantell case:

 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:56:28 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >I urge you to read my reconstruction of the case in The UFO
 >Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., or the abridged paperback version, The
 >UFO Book. I am no admirer of Donald H. Menzel, but like a
 >stopped clock, he's right once in a while. I would say the
 >chance that the Mantell object was a UFO or extraterrestrial
 >spacecraft is zero.

Compare this to John's comment, above:

 >Looking through what I have written, can you find anywhere where
 >I have said that a large Saturn-shaped object - "structure" is
 >begging the question a bit, isn't it - was not photographed over
 >Trindade Island? In fact I think at one point I said I was open
 >to the possibility that it was some sort of natural phenomena.

Now, maybe this is a slip, or a careless statement. But John
does _not_ say that he's open to the possibility that the
Trinidade photos show an unknown physical object, maybe even an
intelligently controlled craft. I'll conclude, unless he gives
me good reason not to, that he doesn't believe in that
possibility.

So, despite John's protestations -- who's got the open mind?
Jerry, who contradicts believers, and says that a purported UFO
was actually a balloon? Or John, who apparently won't allow the
possibility that a disputed UFO photograph even _might_ show an
unknown object?

Greg Sandow








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:38:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:44:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Sandow


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:17:41 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >So between Barahuna leaving the ship and meeting Bacella, he has
 >the negatives to himself for five, maybe six days and no-one
 >else has yet seen a print made from them. It isn't for another
 >two days, 7 or 8 days after Barahuna left the ship, that the
 >negatives are taken for examination.
 >
 >Now even if Barahuna is as honest as the day is long and the
 >photos are completely kosher, this seems an extraordiary way to
 >treat what are suposed to be vitally important photographs.
 >
 >For one thing, whose property were the photographs? They were
 >taken on a Brazilian Naval vessel by a person working for the
 >Brazilian Government, and they were developed in the ship's
 >darkroom. This was, don't forget, a vessel which was undertaking
 >scientific research as part of an international scientific
 >project. Yet when he disembarks, Barahuma is allowed to leave
 >with the negatives as if they were of no more significance than
 >snaps of his cousin Maria on the beach at Copacabana.
 >
 >Doesn't it seem a little odd?

Many things in life seem odd -- and yet they really happen. For
instance, here are some cases where official bodies behaved
really strangely, in matters much more important than a UFO
photo.

The first comes from a book by Tim Weiner, a Washington Post and
New York Times reporter, about the Pentagon's black budget.
Weiner says that during the Grenada invasion, an officer in the
invading forces needed artillery support from U.S. navy ships
offshore. He was supposed to contact them by radio -- but he
found out that the radio systems used by the Army and the Navy
were incompatible! Nobody had realized that while the invasion
was being planned. So this officer found a phone booth, placed a
call to his commanders in the United States (using a credit
card), and asked them to contact the Navy, to request the
artillery barrage!

Even more unfortunate are revelations printed recently in the
New York Times, about how the New York police and fire
departments responded on September 11th. Nobody doubts their
heroism, but:

-- The fire department didn't have an effective chain of
command. Individual firefighters obeyed their commanders, but
not superior officers from a different firehouse. This led to
chaos, disorganization, waste of resources, and loss of life.

-- The police department radios worked inside the burning World
Trade Center. The fire department radios didn't. Nobody, for
many years preceding this, seemed to care that the two agencies
had different radio systems, or that one was very much better
than the other.

-- The police and fire departments didn't communicate during the
crisis. In part, that's because the city had never established
how different agencies would work together during an emergency.
In part, it's because their radio systems were incompatible. And
in part it's because the police and fire departments had been
feuding for years, making any coordination almost impossibly
difficult.

One result of all this? Many firefighters inside the World Trade
Center never received an order to evacuate, and died needlessly.
And some were there needlessly in the first place, having
disobeyed orders to go elsewhere.

If all this is true, and it is...why should we be surprised that
the Brazilian Navy didn't act very quickly?


Greg Sandow








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   Jul > Jul 14

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:18:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:45:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:39:12 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >After all, Mr. Rimmer is not, under any stretch of the
 >imagination, a person who devotes his efforts entirely to
 >ufological matters. Thus, his skeptical inclination regarding
 >ufology is redundant... and, isn't he making money off the work
 >of ufologists? Seems pretty tacky to be hammering those who feed
 >him and decidedly most uncouth, un-British-like behavior.

Making money off the work of ufologists? I should be so lucky!



John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:46:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:47:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:44:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:11 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>Let me repeat: In the 4 1/2 decades that have passed since then,
 >>>not one in position to debunk Barauna has done so, and John
 >>>hasn't even attempted to argue the contrary.

 >>And in four-and-a-half decades we haven't heard a dickie-bird
 >>(as they say round here) from any one of the supposed plethora
 >>of witnesses - 48 according to Jerome Clark, 150 according to
 >>the Lorenzens.

 >Okay, were there or were there not witnesses? Yes, there is
 >ambiguity about their precise number, but none that you have
 >been able to demonstrate - unless you're intending to lay out a
 >conspiracy theory, with appropriate evidence - about their
 >existence.  Is it your view that the Navy investigator was lying
 >about the presence of other witnesses?

Always a lie, isn't it? Never a mistake, a misunderstanding, or
even rather vague writing. I suppose saying that makes sceptics
sound ever so wicked.

We don't know how many witnesses the investigator spoke to, we
don't know any of their names, we don't know whether he
interviewed them individually or through a third party, we don't
know a single word of anything they told him. The investigator,
Jose Brandao, refers only to: "The existence of personal reports
and photographic evidence". Rather a vague piece of phraseology
(assuming the translation from Portuguese is accurate) which
suggests that Brandao might not himself have been the recorder
of any such reports. So it's really up to you to provide the
appropriate evidence, and so far, I fear, you just haven't been
able to do that.

 >Make up your mind, John,
 >or stop wasting our time.

Yes, there were three other witnesses, according to Barauma. We
even have their names: Amilar Vieira, Jose Teobaldo Viegas and
Homero Ribiero. As far as I know we have no statements from any
of these people. The probability (possibility?) is that these
are the witnesses referred to by Jose Geraldo Brandao. Now I
will grant you that a UFO case with four witnesses is more
impressive than a UFO case with just one witness, but we are a
long way from the 48 witnesses who are presented as evidence for
the strength of this case, especially when we are told "given
the number of witnesses ... it is most unlikely that the
Trindade Island photgraphs were hoaxed.

Your words, Jerry (and yes, I know I've left out the bit about
photographic analysis), so you clearly believe that it is the
number of witnesses that make this case so special.

And where exactly does this number of 48 come from? Where was
the first mention of this number? Who counted them?

I only ask because I want to know.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                 Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:31:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:51:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Cameron


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:07:15 +0100

 >>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

<snip>

 >Grant no doubt read this from my eight page article  published in
 >this month's UFO Magazine (UK) on sale from 27 June, details at
 >www.ufomag.co.uk which is entitled

 >"FLYING SAUCERS, ALIENS & DISNEYLAND".
 >Featuring:

 >Disney -- The Early Years
 >The Robertson Panel
 >Education and Debunking
 >Wernher von Braun
 >Alien Encounters
 >Mike Maloney
 >Ward Kimball
 >The Nine

 >The article features Mike Maloney's other meetings with Ward
 >Kimball and Disney executives, and numerous other facts about
 >Disney's connection with the UFO subject.

 >Thanks also to Bruce Maccabee on this List (copy of my article
 >mailed to him) for his contribution.


I don't have my footnoted version in front of me, but I believe
the Maloney reference was taken from Georgina's 'Alien Autopsy
Film Review'.

I shall certainly attempt to locate the latest Bruni article, as
such fine stories are never finished. Hopefully, it gets us
closer to who actually had the film.

Moreover, I believe the film bait and switch game was only part
of the bigger game which included documents.

Grant Cameron








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:27:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:53:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle


List, EKB (of ekb), All -

 >List if Errol is willing [Of course!--ebk].

Good, I think this allows all of here to review it.

 >I'll ask someone
 >else [ebk? --ebk] to be the point of contact for the comments of
 >others and to forward them to me.

I hadn't wanted to impose further burden, but I find ebk to be
acceptable for this. I would only add that we need to keep a
record of who said what in case that comes up later, but the
authors of the various articles have no real need to know this
until the process is completed and then there is no reason for
it other than idle curiosity.


KRandle








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:20:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:56:07 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >List, All -

Hello Kevin, All,

You wrote:

 >I have a proposal to begin, in part, the referee process. I
 >believe that this List contains the proper credentials to engage
 >in such an activity. Opinions range from the skeptical of Young
 >Bob and Bruce Hutchinson to those at the other end such as John
 >Velez.

For such a 'usually' classy guy you have a very real affection
for taking opportunistic 'cheap shots' from time to time. But
that's not why we're here so I'll let your 'dig' blow by
unanswered.

We have bigger fish to fry so let's make for the high road and
move on.  :)

 >There are several websites available to us on the
 >List. John Velez might be interested in some of the articles if
 >they were relevant to his work. Philip Mantle's new
 >beyondpublications.com might be another. There is Alien Zoo and
 >Royce Meyers' site. Any or all might be interested.

My website is hosted by Errol Bruce-Knapp, but I'm sure that if
I ask for extra bandwidth on his server he will be happy to
grant it. (For a worthy cause.)

Sure, I'd be proud to be the first to donate webspace/bandwidth
so that we can get the ball rolling with your proposal. I'm
going to speak to EBK about creating a dedicated website (at his
Virtually Strange Network) for just this project. I'll even do
you one better and offer my design services for the cover page
and internal pages so that they conform with the overall design
of the Virtually Strange Network website. (that will 'possibly'
host it - pending Errol's okey-dokey.)

And all that for free from someone you choose to paint as an
"extremist!"  :)

 >To get this ball rolling, I'll even propose the first of these
 >types of articles. We have been debating the Mantell case
 >recently. The posts run the gamut, from Jerry Clark's and my
 >opinion that it was a balloon, to John Velez's suggestion that
 >he'll believe the witnesses and the family rather than the Air
 >Force and the researchers.

That's the second time you mention my name. Could this be love?
If so, sorry Kevin, I'm not among the 48% gay abductees that
your survey came up with. If it's 'love' it must go unrequited.
  <vbg>

I have contributed two posts to the Mantell thread Kevin. In
them I have clearly stated my views/opinions on the case and you
are most welcome to use them in the context that you propose.
You can secure copies of the two posts (in case you didn't
archive them along with the rest of the thread) at the UFO
UpDates archive online. Consider this post 'permission' to use
them.

 >It seems to me that there are several others who could do the
 >same. John Velez has the dust bunny experiment which would lend
 >itself to this sort of activity. Bruce Maccabee might want to
 >put together something on Kenneth Arnold or Gulf Breeze. Sean
 >Jones had volunteered to write up one of his cases for the
 >review.

Wow! Three mentions in one post. It _must be_ love! Either; you
_really_ want me to be involved in this project... or you
_really_ want to 'set me up.'  Knowing your feelings about me, I
kinda suspect the latter.  But that's ok, I'll bite. Your
proposal is a good idea and I'd like to contribute what I can to
making it a reality. I'm sure I'll discover what you 'really
want with me' soon enough.  <lol>

Re: Dust Bunny's

Kevin, all I have of the dust bunny experiment is a series of
photos that Nick Balaskas sent to me. I never received any kind
of formal report from Nick, nor did I receive any of the
original samples that were submitted. Otherwise, I would have
posted it to the List ages ago.

That, is the reason why I have never posted anything about the
dust bunny project to a webpage. All I have for posting is
series of close-up photos of dust.

I have tried on three separate occasions to wrangle a formal
report out of Nick. Maybe someone with your reputation will have
better luck. Before anything can be posted to the web, we need
to know how the samples were handled, how they were
studied/analyzed, and what (if any) the results of that study
showed. Until then, as I have repeatedly stated on this List, I
cannot post anything. All I have is pictures of dust samples. I
had nothing to do with the actual study, and that's the part
that's still missing. If Nick posts a report to the List I will
be happy to create a webpage with his report and the photos.

 >In other words, the process is about to begin.

John Velez, -the alleged 'other end of the spectrum' from
Bob Young.

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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                                 Peer Review

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:27:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:57:50 -0400
Subject: Peer Review



Much has been said. Can't say much to the negative. However
there are some points which need exploring before anyone surges
ahead into this venue of peer review.

Putting together a peer review system is not terribly difficult,
as Kevin Randle's suggestions demonstrate. But just what else is
required for proper peer review, not on the part of the peer
review group, but on the part of this UFO community, and in this
community, I include the abductee, the researcher and the
skeptic.

Skeptibunkers need not apply. Well, maybe Young Bob, he always
makes me laugh. (No emoticons, thank you)

Just what is required by _us_?

A level of professionalism which precludes the opinionated and
those who cannot or will not cooperate with _everyone_.

A level of cooperation which excludes those who appear to be
immovable and irrational.

Cooperation appears to this writer to be the most important of
the elements required.

The fact is (in my opinion) that this community is not ready for
a peer review system. The reason being that there is no
cooperation and only a fraction of the professionalism needed
for such a system to be corrective. If a peer review system is
implemented, and no one comes to the party, or continues to rant
and rave about their own particular opines, then what good is
this peer review? It will only degenerate into another battle of
wills.

Are you ready to cooperate? Are you ready to be professional?
Are you ready to engage a level of mutual respect one for each
the other? Some are. One too many are not. Interested only in
being the Gestapo, the Ufological equivalent of the State
Politzei, the guardian of heaven, earth and God, The Universe
and Everything, nothing will be accomplished.

And so, I challenge each and every one of _us_, myself included,
to come together once and for all, and cooperate, respectfully
and professionally, in lieu of the opposite. And folks, we all
know who those are who cannot play, let alone play fair.

I was once someone who could not take anyone's opinion, which
opine reflected a negative attitude towards the abduction
experience. I've changed. I realize and have realized in the
last few years, that to maintain a closed mind on this subject
(as a proponent of the experiencer) is just as bad if not worse,
than the opinions expressed by the skeptibunker.

I always apologize when I am wrong. Unfortunately, not everyone
is like me. An apology is worse than death to some. And to
others, the level of ego precludes giving an inch. This must end
before we are all battling like dogs in the street. And
sometimes, that is what this venue sounds like. In point of
fact, it sometimes sounds like a cat fight.

Mel Brooks and his sidekick cut a vinyl called the Two Thousand
Year Old Man. There is yet a newer version, The Two Thousand
Year Old Man Le Deux. In it, Mel's side kick says, "There's more
than one way to skin a cat!"

Mel retorts, "Nah, there's only _one_ way to skin a cat. You
start at the head and _PULL_ ..." And then come the screams.
That's what we sound like at times. I _know_ that most people on
this list abhor this kind of nonsense, but too many put up with
it without comment. This too, is indicative of a level of fear;
fear of retribution cum laud if not loud. Gesundt's got a lot of
Ph.D.'s, most of which were paid for in cash. But one too many
has a Ph.D. in lesse' fair.

Maybe we should place a bannerhead on this list, "Stop the
Madness!" Maybe.

In conclusion, playing fair, being professional, cooperative and
letting people be themselves without insult and personalization
would go a long way to making a peer review system workable.

Pop agrees with me. Consider this his contribution as well. In
my family, we communicate. Wouldn't it be nice if we could do
the same here?

It is consummated

Jim & Jim








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                        Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 05:04:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:59:41 -0400
Subject: Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports


Source: Marshfield News Herald (Wisconsin),

http://www.wisinfo.com/newsherald/mnhlocal/275589675674335.shtml

Stig

***

Fri, Jul 12, 2002

Wisconsin has history of UFO sightings

By Amy E. Bowen
Of the News-Herald

**

Wisconsin isn't New Mexico, but it's close. Wisconsin has the
nation's second-highest number of Unidentified Flying Object
sightings - second only to New Mexico.

That fact sparked the interest of a Sheboygan man.

On a clear, starry night some years ago, John Hoppe saw what he
thinks was a UFO. The 33- year-old man noticed a light in Lake
Michigan. He first thought it was a flashlight beam in the
water, but the object - which was the size of a basketball -
  kept moving. He can't explain it.

"They're here," Hoppe said. "We live on our little planet here,
and if UFOs exist, we'll know that life does exist outside of
Earth. It's been an age-old question, 'Are we the only ones in
the universe?'"

Hoppe is the director of UFOWisconsin.com, a Web site dedicated
to the paranormal in Wisconsin. And the truth might be closer
than you think. Wood and Dane counties lead the state in
reported sightings.

There was an anonymous report of many small lights - red, yellow
and green - in the sky between Marshfield and Pittsville on Jan.
9. A Brian O. said he saw a V-shaped, almost transparent craft
over his Wisconsin Rapids home - "it was moving way too fast to
be a flock of geese" - on May 3. Then on July 4, someone known
only as Brad said a 20-foot diameter craft with gold flashing
lights all around came slowly up his driveway before
disappearing: "It did not fly away," he wrote. "It just
disappeared! Amazing!"

"There are people out there who have some interesting stories
out there," Hoppe said. "But they don't want to come forward
because they don't want their lives destroyed and be called
liars - and that's a shame."

One man claims to be an alien hybrid - half human, half alien.
Hoppe is keeping an open mind. After all, he said, there's no
way to know. No one has seen a hybrid, and even if he's an alien
only in his own imagination, the man is content and not hurting
any one, Hoppe said.

The Web site was launched last September, and so far it has
received more than 400 reports of UFOs or aliens. Incident can
be confidentially reported, and a UFO investigator will look
into the case.

In the past year, sightings have been reported in Auburndale,
Marshfield, Pittsville, Stratford, Chili and Spencer. Other
reports of shining objects in the sky come from Medford, and
Loyal's Tribune Record Gleaner newspaper reported on April 14,
1976, that the "sheriff's department has received 'a few' calls
from persons who reported seeing 'strange' objects in the sky,
some of them have been quite low to the ground."

Aaron Weber, 31, Marshfield, has never seen a UFO, but he's a
believer.

"It's one of those things that until somebody proves it wrong,
you have to keep an open mind to it," he said.

The state's love interest in the paranormal doesn't stop there.
The American UFO and Sci-Fi Museum in the Wisconsin Dells
highlights other Wisconsin encounters and recreates Area 51's
famous alien autopsy in New Mexico.

And UFO enthusiasts will celebrate aliens and maybe even see a
saucer at the 14th annual UFO Daze on July 20 in Dundee. Last
year, participants reported different sightings around the area,
and this year they will continue to look for the little green
men. UFO experts will also present their findings.

Hoppe admits that hoaxes are a problem when talking about the
paranormal. He researches every report to the best of his
ability, but said that there will always be some who exaggerate.
Meteors, weather balloons and satellites have all be mistaken
for space objects. According to UFO Wisconsin, 20 percent of UFO
reports are valid.

"I have been reading UFO stories and doing research since I was
a kid," Hoppe said. "There's more statistical information that
proves it rather than disprove it."

Amy E. Bowen can be reached at 1-715-384-3131 or 1-800-967-2087,
Ext. 333, or at amy.bowen@cwnews.net.

*

If you go . . .

What? The 14th annual UFO Daze
When? Noon July 20
Where? Dundee, of Highway 67 in eastern Fond du Lac County
For more information? Check out  http://www.ufowisconsin.com

*

UFO Web sites

It might not be another planet, but the Internet has a number of
sites dedicated to UFOs and aliens.

http://www.ufowisconsin.com - Started last September, the Web
site chronicles all sightings in Wisconsin. You can see the
reports separated by counties. The Web site recently launched a
UFO shop as well.

http://www.wfiles.com - Paranormal is not just limited to
aliens. This Web site not only tells about the little green men,
but expands into ghosts, angels, Big Foot and other creatures.

http://www.ufomuseum.com - This museum is dedicated to
everything dealing with UFOs. You can learn about Area 51, alien
abductions and even walk down the Alien Hall.

**

Copyright =A9 2002








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                 Welsh Family Abducted By Alien Cruise Ship

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 06:08:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:01:01 -0400
Subject: Welsh Family Abducted By Alien Cruise Ship


Source: BBC - North East Wales,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/guides/weird/ufos/abduction.shtml

Stig

***

Family abducted by alien cruise ship

**
One of the strangest cases reported to the Welsh Federation of
Independent Ufologists is the multiple sighting of UFOs on the
same night - except one family got too close for comfort and
were apparently abducted.

The strange and disturbing events began to unfold when for
several nights an elderly man living in Little Orme, Conwy, was
troubled by what he called "frightening" beams of light over the
Great Orme.

Unfortunately for one family travelling by car to the area at
the same time on November 10 1997, that was the night they had
an unexplained encounter.

They could not account for several 'lost' hours when they
suddenly became aware of resuming their journey, according to
investigator Margaret Fry.

She was told of their account by a friend of the family who were
said to have been advised by officials not to come forward.

Margaret says the couple and their children where driving on the
Bodfair/Landernog road when they found their car engulfed by a
purple triangular craft.

The next thing they remember is that the purple craft had gone.

"But they could not account for considerable hours of time
lost," said Margaret.

"The male was having trouble afterwards with a top molar tooth
and he had to go to the denist's," she said.

"A black unknown object fell out while he was at the dentist's -
  but he had no fillings," she said.

Margaret says that the man reported the family's encounter to
the authorities and he was said to have been visited twice by
air force personnel and requested not to speak publicly about
the matter.

Despite the sketchy details, Margaret is interested in the
witness account because of the sightings in the same area and on
the same night by the elderly man - and that of a local
businessman who also had a close encounter with a craft
described as an alien cruise ship.

The third sighting was by the businessman who says he saw a huge
craft the shape of a "child's spinning top" while he was driving
along the same road as the family who claim to have been
abducted.

Margaret says the man, who sketched an outline of what he saw
(seen here), told her he stopped his vehicle to look at the
craft which he described as being as big a football pitch and
hovering above buildings in the village of Llandernog.

The man says the craft had a "myriad of lit windows", almost
making him believe it was a cruiser-craft capable of carrying
hundreds of people - or beings...








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett

From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:26:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:04:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Bennett


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

I notice that John Rimmer did not reply in detail producing a
disastrous effect on the Fortean Times through the exclusion of
all ufological material. But be that as it may, John Rimmer says
that a certain person I saw on the recent Uncon panel died some
years ago. That may be, but nevertheless this same said person
  has just had published a book (whose title escapes me) with
Dave. This  book is important if only because it just happens to
be the greatest piece of British revisionary history since the
Owl and the Pussy Cat set sail in their pea-green boat. This
book rivals even efforts of David Irving and the Holocaust
denial-mongers, although admittedly with a somewhat somewhat
more liberal tendeny. The sublime trust of this rural pair
(either dead or alive) in evidence derived from the Public
Records Office indeed gives me a feeling that one or other of
the duo might be well be dead indeed, making John Rimmer correct
for once, if only on the rather narrow subject of ghost writers.
I know for a certainty that Dave is alive, because he threatened
to punch me in the face on stage at the very beginning of the
Ufology is Dead discussion.

Since Peter Brookesmith (another pelican) was between us, and he
is (I ruefully admit) one of the best writers on guns in the
world, I thought it best not to take Dave up on his offer, if
only to do so would have been to cross Brookesmith=92s line of
sight. Having spoken extensively in the 1970s and 1980s to
people who knew both Churchill and R.V. Jones personally (such
as the writer Guy Wint, Bill Williams, Montgomery=92s Intelligence
Officer in African and Europe, and Isaiah Berlin, the Oxford
philosopher, to name but a few) that the god of many =93field
researchers=94 as they call themselves, namely  the Public Records
Office has been doctored throughout. The Master of Balliol (Sir
Christopher Hill, mighty historian) told both myself, MI6 man-
to-be Mac McMillan, and Howard Marx (who was to create over
thirty years of unparalleled urban drug-legends, and one of the
few men to escape a CIA death-squad) that he would trust us no
more than he would trust the Public Records Office, and that is
some horse=92s mouth. With such laurels did we take our leave of
the dreaming spires.

Concerning the much vaunted Public Records Office, I can now
tell a national secret, although after fifty years I doubt if
John Bull will come after me. At this time, the Centurion tank
was a world-beater (and was to remain so for thirty years). It
had a top-secret revolutionary gyro-stabilised gun mechanism,
and unfortunately two Centurions were knocked out in the no-
man=92s land between the Chinese forces and the British in Korea.
At great cost, one vehicle was recovered, but the Chinese
unfortunately got the other. This meant that the supporting
Russians would of course have had the gyro-stabiliser in their
hands within hours.

To be brief, there was Intelligence/Administrative panic. All
the Centurion tank numbers (of the pattern say 08ZR51) were all
shuffled to fill the gaps, the explanation to be given (should
any questions be asked) was that some Centurions had been
written-off in accidents in Germany. This was done because the
Americans and NATO were placing large contracts for the gyro-
stabiliser. I know this because the man who rearranged the
numbers was my father. A life-long civil servant, he worked for
the old War Office and the later MOD at the army=92s Vehicle
Census Department based at Chilwell Depot, at Beeston in the
Midlands. He told me this story many years later, including
other stories which I am not prepared to go public on, although
now they are very far away in time. Thus as far as tank numbers
of this period are concerned, any would-be researcher will be
confronted by a seamless robe. As we know today from the example
of the massive American corporations alone, this kind of thing
goes on all the time. Thus more often than not, the much-vaunted
Public records are complete facades. Over the entrance to any
records office should be written the phrase: =93now all the trolls
will follow me=85into Kafkas=92s castle=94.

Now RV Jones was certainly the British Menzel.  Schooled in
wartime secrecy, he emerged from the War as the world=92s greatest
expert on electronic Intelligence detection, analysis, and
interpretation. After the war, as a Professor at Aberdeen, he
was active (with such as Tizard, Pye, Blackett, Zuckerman,
Appleton, and Cockroft) as the most senior theoretician
regarding the burgeoning GCHQ system, with men like Bernard
Lovell (pre Jodrell Bank) designing the hardware in full
consultation with all the US security elements. All of these
people were in the UFO loop, including Mounbatten (with his
Broadlands experience), and even Montgomery and Alexander, who
got into the loop through the Canadian connection. All of these
men were in the UFO coverup, and certainly Jones covered up the
Swedish ghost-rockets (which were genuine UFOs). In a similar
manner, he turned other UFO sightings and the mysterious car-
engine stopping incidents into jokes (like most scientists, he
had a child=92s sense of humour, and the emotional range and
maturity of a matchstick). Churchill himself was shut out of the
loop by the pompous and ineffectual Lindemann, whose scientific
mind had not advanced beyond the early nineteen thirties. What
Jones did to official documentation is as yet an untold story.
As with Menzel, journeys, times, and dates were all fabricated,
and Jone=92s Professorship at Aberdeen was a complete fa=E7ade of
those pleasantries and that puerile conventionality that the
British use to try and cover the gaps in anything and
everything. Thus was the immediate postwar UFO =93managed=94 rather
than investigated. The phenomenon being quite beyond terms of
physical reference at that time, most probably what undoubtedly
clever men like Jones and Menzel decided on was not a technical
matter, but a form of words, resulting in a motif which
strangely repeats itself in both British and American formats
for generations. =93These things are of no defence significance=94.
Whenever I see that famous phrase in books and magazines, I hear
Jones=92 voice, and I hear British public school language and
humour of that generation. =93Every day, a large, savage-looking
man walks right through the house of a large family. This man
cannot be stopped by any possible means, because no one knows
when he is about to appear. Nobody bothers with him because it
has been happening for many years, and the man does no harm
whatsoever.=94 This is the mundane secret of the UFO: the
occupants are hardly interested in us. Knowing both the English
fairy-tale mind, and its Wind in the Willows culture, I would
place a bet that this cover story was invented by RV Jones.

Meantime, fifty year later, the same strange man still keeps
walking through our house many times a day.


Colin


PS As regards the said ferret-protectors I must admit that I
have made a mistake: the proper spelling is dog-bollox ferret-
protectors. I understand that these are worn by farmers and
field researchers for protection of the private parts, whether
desperately searching for hoaxes (the pelican=92s favourite food)
or =93realities=94 (always a dreadful  approximation). The phrase
dog-bollox refers to their shape, which is that of a miniature
pair of skyhook balloons, although I would not say that the
sighting of such is the cause of the sighting confusions we are
now hearing about in the Lists.








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   Jul > Jul 14

                  Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:58:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:06:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Hatch


 >From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

 >Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

 >Ward Kimball, one of the original Disney animators, referred to
 >by Walt Disney as one of the trusted "Nine Old Men," (supreme
 >court of animation) died in Arcadia California on July 8. He was
 >88.

<snip>


Dear Grant:

I have a strong emotional attachment to the Donald Duck comic
books I read as a kid.  10 cents (US) each, they did more than
entertain and teach simple morals, they were fun and, well,
California-like.

Carl Barks (as I learned decades later) was responsible for much
of this; Unca Scrooge and his money bin remain a monetary model
for me today! [ My stockbroker thinks I'm nuts every time the
market goes up. He has been quiet lately.]  Does anyone else
recall Unca Donald driving into a freeway intersection that
looked like a pile of lasagna?  I used to go down with the
family to visit Granny in Los Angeles ( aka Duckburg. ) Someday
I will pinpoint the exact intersection, but I digress..

Grant mentioned the Disney Studios and their interest in UFOs.
Somebody there is still interested if the following is any
indication:


proxy3ext.disney.com:[02/JY:15:18:16] GET/STATMENU.html
http://srd.yahoo.com/goo/  ufo+sightings+statistics
  //*http://www.larryhatch.net/STATMENU.html
proxy3ext.disney.com:[02/JY:15:18:16] GET/50CLIP.gif
proxy3ext.disney.com:[02/JY:15:18:20] GET/YDAYUSA.gif

proxy3ext.disney.com:[02/JY:15:18:49] GET/YDAYUSA.html
  LH.NET/STATMENU.html
proxy4ext.disney.com:[02/JY:15:27:22] GET/50YEARS.gif 23019
proxy4ext.disney.com:[02/JY:15:27:28] GET/50YEARS.html
  LH.NET/STATMENU.html

- - -

This is _highly_ edited excerpt from the ACCESS.html file
provided by my host ISP for July 2002 only. The data is provided
to webmasters who pay their bills on time like Unca Scrooge
does, however painfully.

Here's what this tells me:

1) Somebody, could be anybody, at Disney-dot-com discovered the
*U* Database website via Yahoo-dot-com.

2) This individual, was browsing for "UFO Sightings Statistics".

3) After a short browse, only a few pages, whoever it was got
bored or disappointed, and simply went away.

4) Whatever happened (or not), it took about nine minutes.

- - -

There are other spider webs hidden in a horribly lengthy file
like ACCESS.html; which only begin to surface after converting
that to a text file, but I am just beginning to dig and do not
want to suggest or imply too much.

These are, after all, only very vague records of visits to one
particular website. The actual person visiting is not known,
unless he/she _really_ screws up (chuckle!) and a lot of this is
web-crawling by the regular search engines.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = =








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   Jul > Jul 14

             Argentine Government Study Suspects Toxic Presence

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 08:35:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:42:37 -0400
Subject: Argentine Government Study Suspects Toxic Presence


SOURCE: "El Diario de la Pampa"
DATE: July 11, 2002

MUTILATED COWS: Government comissioned a study--partially
released--suspecting the presence of a toxic agent


Is a report presented by Dr. Marta Paturlanne--a police expert
and officer in charge of the Santa Isable precinct of the
Ministry of Production's Livestock Extension--suggesting that a
narcotic or toxic element was present in some of the animals
found out West? Why did the government not publicize this
possibility. Nor is it mentioned if these agents may have
consequences on humans.

When the first mutilated animals appeared in the Pampan Region,
Bernardo Can=E9--the director of SENASA, said that they were the
consequence of "esoteric practices" and finally stated that the
incisions were produced by the "red-muzzled mouse". Days later,
the Minister of Production of La Pampa, Nestor Alcala, was
kicking the stands: "That type of mouse does not exist in the
region," he retorted, responding to a question posed by El
Diario. Alcal=E1 made his statement after having seen one of the
official reports to which this newspaper later had access.

It is a report presented by Dr. Marta Paturlanne which posits
that the lesions were not produced by known animals nor humans,
and suggests another possibility: that the animals died upon
breathing a toxic or narcotic agent. The report is in two
folders with abundant explanations regarding the description of
the anatomical/pathological lesions, but possible causes are
suggested and photographs included the" La Pastoril Case" and
"The Puesto de Sosa Case" in the western region of the
province.Both describe the pattern lesions (defined by the Dept.
of Pathology of the School of Veterinary Medicine of the
National Univ. of La Pampa at General Pico). For example, in the
"La Pastoril Case", the doctor describes the following
characteristics:

-- the cow is missing facial musculature (jaw and upper molars)
and the ocular globe and the left ear.

-- missing its pharynx, larynx, part of the trachea and its
tongue.

--one fo the characteristics is the thorough cleaning of the
Iodes bone, the bony base of the tongue.

--in the first few days after death, carrion birds shy away from
the animal and the characteristic nauseating odors are not
present. After the animal decomposes, foxes and other predators
approach.

--absence of the mammary gland, perineum and vaginal tract.

Meanwhile--writes Paturlanne--the causes of death are not clear.
She supposes that at least three animals died due to having
breathed in a "caustic narcotic" or "toxic agent" because
"dissection shows that the trachea and hard palate are
affected." This would have produced a cessation of cardio-
respiratory fucntion. "The mucosae of the hard palate appears
mutilated, even carbonized," she writes. In any event, no
studies have been made to establish this point. On the other
hand, the report points out that the incisions are not produced
by carrion animals since these will not approach the carcass.
Paturlanne makes no mention of mice, because the report was
produced only days before SENASA's report become known.
Yesterday, when questioned by El Diario, she said that "we have
no mice or ants here--nothing."

The mouse theory is further mistrusted by Gustavo Siegenthaler,
Direcotr of the National Museum of History of La Pampa, and
Alberto Pariani, academic secretary of the School of Veterinary
Medicine.

The experts agree on the following, however:

-the incisions follow a similar pattern: the appear with clean
cuts on the ear, eyes, cheek, tongue, vagina, rectum and mammary
gland, among others.

-the incisions are made post mortem, since there is no evidence
that the animals put up a fight.

-most of the incisions appear between five and ten days after
the animals' death. However, at least three cattlemen claim that
they appeared from "one day to another" in dead and mutilated
animals, according to the School of Veterinary Medicine at Pico.

-the presence of narcotics, or firearm holes, or blows from
heavy objects has not been detected.

-poachers were not involved because the incisions are useless
(with the exception of the tongue) and there are neither human
nor animal tracks).

-abnormal levels of radiation are not found at the mutilation
sites, according to the Nuclear Activity Regulatory Authority,
which conducted studies in Toay and Santa Rosa.

But who is making the incisions?

The hypotheses regarding the parties responsible for the
mutilations are divided: SENASA and the Univ. del Centro de
Buenos Aires at Tandil insist that "red-muzzled mice" and foxes
were to blame. The Specialized Veterinary Diagnostic Service
(SDVE) operationg out the INTA's Experimental Station in
Balcarce states that in all cases "the bovines died normally and
the extirpations were simply the work of carrion animals.

-Provincial Government agencies dismiss the possibility that the
red-muzzled mouse could be to blame, since the species does not
inhabit La Pampa.

-Specialists from the Dept. of Pathology of the School of
Veterinary Med. of the Natl. Univ. of La Pampa also question the
SENASA report.

-The Uruguayan goverment prepared another report, stating that
"yellow jackets" are to blame.

 From April to the present, 59 mutilated animals have been found
in our province, according to police statistics. "The number of
cases I am aware of are 46, with one or more animals involved in
each event," said Inspector Adolfo Sanchez. The causes are
labelled as "damage". For each animal, the average loss is of
300 pesos. "The mutilations do not have a delinquent origin in
themselves. Some owners made reports and others didn't, and the
Police participated to unravel [the mystery], since it is clear
that theft has not been the motive here," added Sanchez.

[....]

Aside from the theories presented by scientists, there are
others. The hypotheses and suppositions range from alleged
"genetic creations" like the Chupacabras to the presence of
Umbanda-type sects, including a corporate plot to take over the
properties in the region:

- UFO researcher Fabio Zerpa suggests "alien scientists" are
conducting research on the planet. This version is supported by
multiple accounts which claim that "strange lights" can be seen
in the sky, and the alleged absence of tracks around the
mutilated animals. - Cults: the theory originally proposed by
the Buenos Aires police.

- Green Dwarves: there are those who
say that a creature known as "the green dwarf" is roaming around
the province. Residents claim it is between 50-60 cm. tall, has
a large head and ears, large green eyes, two legs and long arms.

- Chupacabras: this creature would be half-bat, half-kangaroo
and half Grey-alien and murders cattle. It has been described as
  about 1.20 m tall, weighing 32 kg. and withn red eyes. It is
said to jump or fly toward trees, attacking horses and chickens
alike, draining their blood.

- Corporate Conspiracy: some residents believe in a corporate
conspiracy aimed at causing fear among the locals to force them
to sell their land at low prices.

- Aguara Guaz=FA: a corpulent animal with long hands and legs
native to Northern Argentina, but which occupied the banks of
the Rio Colorado until the late 19th century. It has been
dismissed since it feeds on small animals only.

- CIA: this theory holds that the mutes are the work of the US
Government, linked to some kind of research in biological
warfare.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.








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   Jul > Jul 14

               Did Toxic Agent Cause Argentine Animal Deaths?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 11:32:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:44:40 -0400
Subject: Did Toxic Agent Cause Argentine Animal Deaths?



SOURCE: El Diario de la Pampa
DATE: Friday, July 12, 2002

DID TOXIC AGENT CAUSE ANIMAL DEATHS?
"Tests must be sent to laboratory," says Isequilla.


Up to now, no laboratory in the country confirmed the presence
of toxic agents in the mutilated animal carcasses. Specialists
believe that the animals are dying from pneumonia or lack of
minerals. The bureucrats, holding on to a report since July 1st
which suggested the possibility that at least two cows could
have died from having aspirated a toxic agent, waited until
yesterday (when El Diario published the story) to request the
corresponding lab analysis.

The Undersecretary of Agrarian Affairs, Juan Isequilla, pointed
out that he could "neither confirm nor reject" the suspicion
that a toxic or caustic narcotic caused the deaths of cows which
have turned up dead in the Santa Isabel region, since lab tests
have yet to be performed. "In order to have a proper diagnostic
it is necessary to send the tests to a lab to carry out the
histopathological and chemical diagnoses, among others," he
said, after El Diario published the story of two necropsies
performed by a veterinarian of the western part of the province,
who suspects the animals died from aspirating or ingesting a
toxic chemical.

"As per good veterinarian practice, one must be able to
demonstrate what one is speaking about," stated Isequilla,
adding that it is therefore necessary "to submit the material to
the lab for corroboration."

=======================================

Translation (C) 2002
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.






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   Jul > Jul 14

                  Colon Joins Argentine Mutilated Cow Club

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 11:39:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:46:17 -0400
Subject: Colon Joins Argentine Mutilated Cow Club


SOURCE: Semanario Col=F3n (Internet Edition)
DATE: July 12, 2002


COLON JOINS THE MUTILATED COW CLUB

The bovine, sporting non-traditional injuries, was found in a
pasture field located in a field of the Boulevard 17 extension.
It was mutilated and this time cattle rustlers were not to
blame. The government drafted an official report blaming the shy
red-muzzled mouse. By comparison, popular tradition suggests the
Chupacabras or little green men.

Whether it is one thing or another, a rancher from Col=F3n had the
fright of his life. His name is Forti, and he lives in a
development with 150 dwellings. The pasture field is located
between Col=F3n and Wheelwright, and there it was that the owner
found a bovine with strange mutilations. The parameters followed
by the alleged mice in causing the wounds are identical to the
ones repeated in hundreds of cases in C=F3rdoba, Santa Fe and
Buenos Aires: precise cuts on the chest, the tongue extracted
with admirable precision and the absence of genitalia. The
rancher summoned an expert and was further astonished by the
find, because nothing similar had ever happened before. This
case can be added to the mutilated animals found at Hughes,
Wheelwright and Villa Constituci=F3n


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.







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   Jul > Jul 14

               Strange Lights At The Edge Of Argentine Lagoon

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 11:58:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:50:16 -0400
Subject: Strange Lights At The Edge Of Argentine Lagoon


SOURCE: Diario El Cronista (Chascom=FAs, Argentina)
DATE: Saturday, July 13, 2002


STRANGE LIGHTS AT THE EDGE OF THE LAGOON


Residents of Sunchales street in the Esteban Echeverria
neighborbood did not hesitate to notify the Squad Car Command
last night after first making clear that they were not "seeing
things" out of fear. Perhaps it was due to curiosity and
uncertainty about the images before their eyes: strange lights
changing colors and landing in the vicinity, on the edge of the
lagoon, were the reason for the call. The lights further caused
other local residents to remain on the lake's shores for forty
minutes after the lights had vanished toward the south. Other
lights seemed to land in the Monte Brown area and also in the
proximity of the Fish and Nautical Club, where guests at a
dinner held in the honor of racing fans caused the number of
eyewitnesses to be even larger.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.








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   Jul > Jul 14

                      March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting?

From: Stanton  Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 12:29:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:52:56 -0400
Subject: March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting?


List:

I am seeking any information about a sighting of a large UFO
observed after 5PM less than 200' across from the 23rd Floor of
the Sutton Place Hotel in Downtown Toronto on about March 25,
1981.

It was about half the size of a football field, had lights
around it and a dome on top. The witness didn't see any post
sighting press coverage, but because of some other factors,
would like to find other witnesses.


Stan Friedman








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               CCCRN News: 'Pictogram' Erin Township, Ontario

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:14:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:54:37 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: 'Pictogram' Erin Township, Ontario


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 14, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002


'PICTOGRAM' FORMATION - ERIN TOWNSHIP, ONTARIO

Report received yesterday of odd formation of possible 'symbols'
in a wheat field near Erin Township, Ontario, found July 13,
2002. Reported by local resident.

Estimated at approximately 60 meters (200 feet) long; difficult
to tell specific shapes as only observed from ground. Also other
very small markings nearby (grapeshot?). Each 'symbol' said to
be approximately 3 - 4.5 meters (10 - 15 feet) in size, with the
wheat stalks flattened in overlapping layers, with some stalks
reportedly bent over as much as 0.46 meters (1.5 feet) above the
ground. Also numerous bent and swollen nodes on stalks, about
1.5 times normal size.

The location is south of the previously reported Mansfield site,
between Mansfield and Hamilton and may therefore be another case
of 'randomly downed crop'.

Further details, diagram and photos pending.

This is the sixth report for 2002.


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August/September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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                Re: CCCRN News: 'Circles' Formation - Exeter,

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 04:43:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:58:26 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 'Circles' Formation - Exeter,


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 15, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002


'CIRCLES AND CURVILINEAR PATTERNS' FORMATION - EXETER, ONTARIO

Report received yesterday of a formation of circles and other
'curvilinear' patterns, in wheat, seen July 14. Plants flattened
very flat to ground; circles have standing tufts of crop in
them. Viewed initially from road. Whether these may be more of
the 'randomly downed areas' previously reported in Ontario near
Mansfield is unclear at this point. Further details pending.

This is the seventh report for 2002.

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Also...

The formation at Erin Township, Ontario (July 13), also in
wheat, is a series of more or less 'random' areas again,
although some linear patterns were noted (like 'H's') and other
semi-circular areas, covering an area approximately 600 feet
across by one estimate (larger than previously reported). Crop
lay features 'V's' and cross-hatching. Swollen nodes on stalks.
Further details pending.

Some additional news article links have also been added to the
web site for the Grand River, Prince Edward Island and New
Brunswick 'weather-related' circles.

Lastly, a link to 'The Crop Circle Field', by Canadian singer and
songwriter Allan Rankin who lives in Prince Edward Island:

http://www.allanrankin.com/songs/onesong.php3?number=3D14


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August / September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002






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                 Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:46:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:11:26 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Speiser


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:58:38 -0400

 >>Dick, James & List,

 >>I don't know about that case. And I mean that literally.

<snip>

 >I really hate this case. The waters are as muddied as possible.
 >Ditto Roswell.

<snip>

 >As James Speiser points out, there have been several times when
 >witnesses in this case have been forthcoming, and then, refused
 >to give any clarifications. At several points there was
 >supposely a book in preparation. Barry told me he finally gave
 >up on this case when the principals ceased communicating with
 >him.


Whew! So glad to hear I'm not alone. Was beginning to think I
was just dense.

To me, a really good UFO case shouldn't be this difficult.
That's why I like Walton/Turkey Springs. Seven guys, they told
what they saw, and not a shred of negative evidence has held up
against it. Refuting PJK is easy. Explaining a Larry
Warren....you couldn't pay me enough...

==JJS==








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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <cohenufo@optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:25:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:14:54 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen


 >From: Steve Jones <stvjns@gargoylemechanique.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:32:55 +0000
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Jones

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:52:03 -0500

 >>>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:08:31 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

<snip>

 >Can we clarify what is meant by the term UFO in this
 >forum? I assert that we are discussing the existance of
 >antigravitic flying machines, and the myriad issues this
 >existance implies.

Welcome to the list Steve,

I was away for a week and wasn't around to answer your note.
People are sometimes so involved answering ongoing topics they
don't always have time to answer every post, so, don't be
discouraged. I've got a project I'm working on myself right now,
but I wanted to briefly answer a small portion of your note to
let you know we know you are alive out there

The answer to your preceding question is "it varies with the
specific individual who originally initiated the discussion."
Read the original and its threads and you will usually figure
out where that particular person is coming from.

BTW, each researcher subconsciously assigns a priority to what
he is interested in answering depending upon that person's
particular experiences and research. That's how each is drawn to
a particular thread. Read the List for awhile and read previous
threads stored on the UpDates server to gain an insight into the
various people and topics involved. The archived List goes back
to December 1996.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/

Sometimes the particular topic you are broaching has already
been discussed and other times people are just busy supporting
or defending their particular view on a theme and it therefore
may not be possible to change topics or give you the attention
you may desire at the moment. Patience is eventually rewarded.

Best wishes for some really interesting reading and
participation,


Jerry Cohen

http://www.cohenufo.org/









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                  Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:27:51 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:17:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Goldstein


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:17:41 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:04:07 -0400
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:45:10 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>But don't you understand? There is no evidence that there were
 >>>"dozens of people" (precisely four dozen, we are told) on deck.
 >>I>f no one was there, there's no one to contradict Barauna.
 >>>That's the point.

 >>The point is that the people who Barauna claimed were witnesses
 >>and therefore on deck at the time, could easily have said, "I
 >>was not on the deck so I didn't see it." In other words they
 >>could have demonstrated that Barauna was lying about there being
 >>other witnesses. This could be a contradiction of Barauna, not a
 >>contradiction about the nature, shape, flight of the UFO, but a
 >>contradiction on the number of witnesses.

 >Apart from Viegas, Viegas and Homero, Barauna does not seem to
 >have given the names of any of the other alleged 45 witnesses.
 >The ship had a crew of 300. Why would any individual crew member
 >assume that they must have been one of the people referred to?
 >Surely most people's reaction would be to think that if they
 >hadn't seen anything, all the excitement must have happened
 >while they were swilling out the bilges or something?


Hello John,

I am getting inundated with flapdoodle of dicky birds(?),
pelicans, and piles of dung, coming in endless Rimshots that
leave a stain on my poopdeck. You have picked at the Trinidade
Island case from a lot of different angles but nothing new has
really emerged.

John, I would suggest that if you are trying to show whether you
are correct in speculating what crewmembers did or did not see,
that you get yourself down to Brazil, search the naval records
to determine the names of all crewmembers, see how many can be
located, and take statements. Better yet, a joint effort between
you and Jerry for objectivity. Is there a researcher in Brazil
who may be willing to take this on to do some legwork?

Otherwise, there is enough in the report to show that a number
of crewmembers witnessed something. Their statements would help
establish whether they saw something same or similar to the
photograph. Now you are grasping at straws to think of any
possible reasons you can use to pick the report apart. The
report now stands as it is but it would take field work to make
any further analysis.

If Menzel were still alive, I suspect that you both would be
convinced that the Trinidade and Mantell cases were not a
balloon or a UFO but a  giant white pelican before it flew back
to its high altitude nest above the Cascade mountains to get
further irradiated by airborne radioactivity from Hanford
nuclear research.

What do you think started the UFO flaps? Why do you think they
glow at night? Why are they going to store high level nuclear
waste right next to Area 51? Could that be where the recovered
saucers and back engineered based new models will be stored? Ask
Bob Lazar and he probably will tell you that is where they had
moved operations from S4 to a few years ago in order to get
ready to move from the testing to the operational phase. They
can turn that waste into element 115 instead of obtaining puny
amounts from Oak Ridge. Now we will be able to send saucers
after Saddam. We'll stage an alien abduction and put the blame
on them.

Hmm, maybe all this pelican dung has made my imagination overly
fertile. Once again John, why don't you start flapping your
wings in a southern direction and look in Brazil if you want
further information as to what happened down by Trinidade
island? Flapping them here is just building a bigger dung pile
and staining my poopdeck on my computer. Can you describe a
dicky bird and its dung? Maybe that is what this is all about?
Hmm.

In England are there any other weird creatures named in slang?
If you can't get down to Brazil perhaps you should start
investigating in your own country to find them as real
creatures. There must be some basis in fact for why, when I was
a little baby, I looked down between my legs and saw what my mom
described as a dicky bird? When I got a little older I learned a
bunch of other names for the same part of my anatomy. I grew up
in America. Is there any cultural relevance between American and
English dicky birds? The only American adult dicky bird I knew
of had the last name of Nixon. I knew I should have majored in
cultural anthropology years ago.


Waiting breathlessly,

Josh











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                              'Beyond' Website

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@email.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:30:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:19:27 -0400
Subject: 'Beyond' Website


The new subscription only web site BEYOND is now online at:

www.beyondpublications.com

Why not take a look.


Philip Mantle

Editor
Beyond Publications








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:05:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:21:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:39:12 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >My apologies to the List for taking so long to throw in my two
 >cents. OK, a dime. I've been battling an eye disease, so the
 >efforts to post are herculean at the moment and will be far and
 >few between for awhile.

<snip>

Wendy:

I sincerely hope you will be OK. Also that you had a good summer
holiday and are back ready to have some fun.

Have you found the Robert Shaeffer citation re CSICOP?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:17:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:24:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:04:47 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:19:44 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

<snip>

 >Well, what is the psychological mechanism you're proposing to
 >account for the mismatch between how close the encounter was and
 >how close the witness thought it was? I'm only saying that the
 >visual system doesn't provide such a mechanism.

Cathy:

I wish that I knew. I think that it must be related to belief,
not a physical factor. Otherwise, how to account for all of the
Identified Flying Objects (IFOs) which were distant planets or
stars?

It may also be related to position in the sky, as the Full Moon
effect. Without the Moon to look at, very few people believe
that it has the diameter of one's little finger nail at arm's
length. This effect, though, is actually one in which the viewer
apparently unconciously thinks that the Moon is much further
away, hence has become "larger".

I wish that I knew of a physical cause. It might explain a lot
of bizarre aspects to some IFOs.


Thanks for the info.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                         UFO Buzzes Villarica, Chile

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:20:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:05:27 -0400
Subject: UFO Buzzes Villarica, Chile


SOURCE: El "Diario Austral" de La Arucan=EDa - Chile
DATE: July 12, 2002

UFO CAUSES SENSATION THROUGHOUT VILLARRICA


This is the UFO caught on tape by videographer Alberto Sandoval
on Wednesday night.

Around 21:00 hours on Wednesday night, dozens of falmilies in
Villarrica were watching TV or listening to the friendly voice
of their local radio station, which mixed with the soft sound of
the rain falling in the darkness and silence of the evening. But
this tranquility was suddenly and unexpectedly altered by the
appearance of an unidentified flying object (UFO)  which lit the
winter night.

In spite of the fact that the clouds obstructed a clear view of
the object, it was seen from several points of the lake region
by hundreds of people, and yesterday, the incredible phenomenon
was being discussed in all corners of this city. On that night,
in the control booth of Radio Apumanque, Patricio Castillo, 28,
was choosing music selections for hundreds of listeners while
the rain continued outside.

When the clock marked 21:15 hours, the station's phone began to
ring. The radio controller raised a headphone and heard the
voice of his co-worker Pilar Castillo, asking him to look out
the window because there was a very strange object in the sky.
Patricio hung up and opened one of the windows, leaned out and
saw the strange object in the dark and rainy winter night.

"I looked and I saw a luminous object with three red lights in
one of its sides. It was still for a few seconds and then made a
very swift movement. I stopped looking at it for a few seconds
because I ran in to play a song and when I returned it was
gone," he explained. He had been working for 9 years in radio
and had never had a similar experience. "I used to not believe
in these things, but my opinion changed after this."

For one moment, Patricio thought it could be the millionaire who
is crossing the world by baloon, but then realizied that the had
already passed over South America, adding that despite its
luminosity, the UFO made no noise, dismissing the possibility
that it could be an airplane.

Pilar Castillo, the host of the "Morning Talk with Pili"
segment, stated that after 21:00 hours she had left a meeting
when she realized that there was something strenge in the sky.
Some of the persons with her were astonished as the luminous
object vanished suddenly. "It was like a shooting star that
changed colors as it went away. It came from the direction of
Nancul to Villarica. It was red  for some minutes and then
turned violet."

We left the station and under a southern rain headed to the
house of Alberto Sandoval, 47, a self-taught cameraman with
years of experience, who managed to record the UFO. Upon
reaching the property, one of his neighbors told us we could
locate him at Radio Pianisima. We reached the station and found
him hosting the "Mundialmente Mexico" program, which airs for
one hour every morning.

Between Mexican ranchero songs, Alberto Sandoval, who has spent
some 28 years in radio, confirmed that he had indeed managed to
film the UFO. "A neighbor called me and told me go outside with
the camera to film a strange object in the sky. I took out my
machine and between the raindrops managed to obtain some images
which have a duration of some 5 seconds."

This isn't the first time, said Sandoval, that he has obtained
UFO images in the lake region. "In the summer of '95 a neighbor
woke me up at 5 a.m.. I took my camera and filmed a strange
object. The good thing ist that the sky  was clear. I could see
a luminous sphere similar to last night's, only larger."

FOR MORE INFORMATION: http://www.diarioaustral.cl/

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002
Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.









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                  UFOs on the Prowl in Entre Rios Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:48:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:22:32 -0400
Subject: UFOs on the Prowl in Entre Rios Argentina


SOURCE: Paralelo 32 - Digital Edition (Crespo, Entre Rios, Arg.)
DATE: July 13, 2002

UFOs on the Prowl in Entre Rios


In the past two weeks, "strange lights' were seen in various
locales in the center of Entre Rios Province. Residents of Sola,
Rosario del Tala and Mansilla were witnesses to the low-altitude
maneuvers of objects they were unable to identify with known
phenomena such as airplanes, meteorological events, animals or
other elements. Last Saturday night, a resident of Parana filmed
15 lights which spun around in circles for 10 minutes. His home
video was seen by some news media as proof of the strange
phenomena.

The strangest case involved police officers in two squad cars at
the truck stop on the crossroads of routes 39 and 6. The
officers, according to a description offered by Diario Uno de
Parana, saw how a powerful light made maneuvers in the night
skies on Monday, July 1st. It approached the squad cars,
producing "sparks similar to those of a photographer's flash"--a
colorful spectacle full of "admirable" color bursts.

At a given moment, the light pulled back and the vehicles
stopped operating. The engines wouldn't turn over and the lights
were off. Half an hour later, when the strange luminosity had
vanished completely, the police siren turned on "all of a
sudden" and the engines responded to the ignition. The five
occupants of both Renault 19 vehicles, one from Rosario del Tala
and antoher from the Gobernador Sola sheriff's office, could
find no possible explanation to what they saw. When the object
came excessively close to the vehicles, the law enforcement
personnel reached for their sidearms, but it seems that the
strange light was not impressed, since it continued to fly close
to the squad cars pursuing it, withdrawing in its own good time,
after the photographic flashes.

===============================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, IHU.
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.








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                Sheep Found With Head Mutilations In Uruguay

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:55:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:20:22 -0400
Subject: Sheep Found With Head Mutilations In Uruguay


SOURCE: Diario "El Argentino" (Gualeguaych=FA-Entre R=EDos)
DATE: Sunday, July 14, 2002

DEAD SHEEP FOUND WITH HEAD MUTILATIONS AT SALTO (URUGUAY)
**A resident of Salto is still astonished after finding mutilated sheep**


Two dead sheep were found dead on the property of Walter Antonio
Remedi, located at Colonia Gestido. The man found a dead sheep
with mutilations on its head as he surveyed his fields.

The animal found by Remedi was missing an ear, an eye, the
tongue and all of the flesh on the left side of the head. A
swath of black fur and a lump of fat were found at its side.

500 meters away, a second dead sheep was found with similar
injuries to the head area, but it had already been attacked by
dogs or other animals. As regards the other animals which have
turned up dead in other parts of the country, this case involves
sheep and not bovines. There were no signs of spilled blood.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2002 IHU
Special Thanks to Alicia Rossi








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                     New Animal Mutilations in Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:54:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:22:53 -0400
Subject: New Animal Mutilations in Argentina



SOURCE: Salliquelo On Line (Breaking News)
DATE: July 14, 2002

NEW ANIMAL MUTILATIONS IN SALLIQUELO
**Mouse nowhere to be seen**

A calf was found with incisions identical to those in cases
which have already become known. What is strange about the find
is that the calf, property of Aniceto Fernandez, was found dead
and mutlated on a farm adjacent to his own. The owner believed
that the animal fled to the neighboring property when it became
frightened by something. This is the first case reported in
which the animal is in an area of easy access, close to
population centers and to any possible witnesses.

Meanwhile, the phenomenon continues, with daily reports of new
mutilations taking place in various parts of the country.

=============================
Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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                            Apropos Trindade Isle

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:28:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:26:03 -0400
Subject: Apropos Trindade Isle


Searching through the dusty corners of the Donald E. Keyhoe
Archives, I have found a cache of untranslated non-English
newspaper clippings (Colonial for cuttings) on UFOs from the
1950s through 1980s. Most are in Spanish, and some in
Portuguese, with a few in French or German.

Amongst the Portuguese is the front page of Correio da Manha for
Feb. 21, 1958, reporting the Trindade Isle case and showing six
photos. There may be others on that case too; I have not looked
through all of them yet.

Anyone willing to do some translations can contact me offline.

The deal will be that one copy of the translation and the
originals be returned to me, and the translator may do whatever
he or she likes with the translation. Any that are relevant to
ongoing UFO UpDates discussions I will post here.

- Dick Hall








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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:32:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:27:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Jones


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

Evening Kevin, Errol, All

<snip>

 >Sean
 >Jones had volunteered to write up one of his cases for the
 >review.

I will write up my report, notes, and bits pieces etc and have
something posted to the list very shortly. but don't expect it
to be short <g>

Errol, would you rather I upload and scanned pictures (& etc) to
my website and link to them, or send them with the email?

 >In other words, the process is about to begin.

Lets hope that this will be the start of something worthwhile.

Regards

Sean

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:47:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:28:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39
 >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:26:18 +0100

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:36:05 +0100
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >I notice that John Rimmer did not reply in detail producing a
 >disastrous effect on the Fortean Times through the exclusion of
 >all ufological material. But be that as it may, John Rimmer says
 >that a certain person I saw on the recent Uncon panel died some
 >years ago. That may be, but nevertheless this same said person
 > has just had published a book (whose title escapes me) with
 >Dave. This  book is important if only because it just happens to
 >be the greatest piece of British revisionary history since the
 >Owl and the Pussy Cat set sail in their pea-green boat. This
 >book rivals even efforts of David Irving and the Holocaust
 >denial-mongers, although admittedly with a somewhat somewhat
 >more liberal tendeny. The sublime trust of this rural pair
 >(either dead or alive) in evidence derived from the Public
 >Records Office indeed gives me a feeling that one or other of
 >the duo might be well be dead indeed, making John Rimmer correct
 >for once, if only on the rather narrow subject of ghost writers.
 >I know for a certainty that Dave is alive, because he threatened
 >to punch me in the face on stage at the very beginning of the
 >Ufology is Dead discussion.

Ah, all is clear. Mr Bennett is indulging in the old British
upper-class game of deliberately getting the names of members of
the lower orders wrong. It's a way of keeping them in their
place. (The same technique was used on John harney at the
Tunbridge Wells Flying Saucer Club, where he met Lord Dowding)
Bennett actually means David Clarke and Andy Roberts, who of
course have nothing to do with Doug and Dave the crop-circle
makers, but we'll allow him his little upper-crust affectation.

I tug my forelock, say "sorry to 'ave troubled 'ee, squire", and
return to mucking out the pigs, climbing chimneys from the
inside, or whatever my sort is supposed to do.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                 Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:08:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:30:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure - Balaskas


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:34:23 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Disney, UFOs, and Disclosure

<snip>

 >>As the documentary neared completion, the two producers waited
 >>for the promised dramatic alien landing footage. Colonel Bill
 >>Coleman who had first made the offer to provide it in 1972,
 >>however, withdrew it. According to what Emenegger told
 >>researcher Tim Good, Coleman had declared, "The timing was
 >>politically inappropriate, due to the Watergate scandal."

<snip>

 >I thank Grant Cameron for compiling this history of aborted
 >attempts to get the word out. And, while reading it, it suddenly
 >occurred to me what has been in ffront of my nose for the last
 >several weeks... an even earlier attempt to get the word out...
 >and almost did, via LIFE magazine in 1952. The writers of the
 >life article were told by a top level General that saucers were
 >interplanetary.

<snip>

Hi Bruce, Grant, everyone!

The timing always seems to be politically inappropriate.

According to an article by Gordon Creighton in FSR, July/August
1979, even a little further back, in the summer of 1951, we came
close to a full public disclosure about UFOs and ETs. At this
time photographers and movie crews took pictures of three
saucers hovering over the airport which seem to herald the
arrival of General George C. Marshall (Army Chief of Staff in
WWII and then Secretary of State) to Mexico City. Although all
these pictures were taken by the authorities with the promise
that they would be returned, they never were.

It was revealed by U.S. authorities that they had established
that the saucers were friendly visitors from another planet.
When General Marshall himself was asked the reasons for the
coverup, he said that the U.S.A. wanted her people to
concentrate on the real menace, communism; and not to be
distracted by the visitors from outer space.

Although communism has now replaced by other real or imagined
menaces, the time for the end of the coverup does not seem to be
any closer.

Nick Balaskas








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:39:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:34:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle


 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:20:15 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>List, All -

 >Hello Kevin, All,

 >You wrote:

 >>I have a proposal to begin, in part, the referee process. I
 >>believe that this List contains the proper credentials to engage
 >>in such an activity. Opinions range from the skeptical of Young
 >>Bob and Bruce Hutchinson to those at the other end such as John
 >>Velez.

 >For such a 'usually' classy guy you have a very real affection
 >for taking opportunistic 'cheap shots' from time to time. But
 >that's not why we're here so I'll let your 'dig' blow by
 >unanswered.

John, List, All -

But I meant no dig. I was just thinking of people who were on
this great Ufological continuum and plugged in the names I
thought to be appropriate. I could have used Dick Hall or Stan
Friedman for the one end and John Rimmer for the other. I was
just naming people who had differing opinions on the reality of
UFOs and the evidence for, or against, their existence (meaning
here are they or aren't they from other planets).

 >>There are several websites available to us on the
 >>List. John Velez might be interested in some of the articles if
 >>they were relevant to his work. Philip Mantle's new
 >>beyondpublications.com might be another. There is Alien Zoo and
 >>Royce Meyers' site. Any or all might be interested.

 >My website is hosted by Errol Bruce-Knapp, but I'm sure that if
 >I ask for extra bandwidth on his server he will be happy to
 >grant it. (For a worthy cause.)

 >Sure, I'd be proud to be the first to donate webspace/bandwidth
 >so that we can get the ball rolling with your proposal. I'm
 >going to speak to EBK about creating a dedicated website (at his
 >Virtually Strange Network) for just this project. I'll even do
 >you one better and offer my design services for the cover page
 >and internal pages so that they conform with the overall design
 >of the Virtually Strange Network website. (that will 'possibly'
 >host it - pending Errol's okey-dokey.)

John, just so there is no misunderstanding here, the only reason
I suggested you might not be interested in all these peer
reviewed articles is that I believed your website was dedicated
to the abduction phenomenon and thought that an article about
the Mantell case might not be appropriate for it. That is the
only reason I suggested you might not be interested in all the
articles.

 >And all that for free from someone you choose to paint as an
 >"extremist!"  :)

And John, I would gladly accept, and I would appreciate, any
assistance in putting this thing together.

 >>To get this ball rolling, I'll even propose the first of these
 >>types of articles. We have been debating the Mantell case
 >>recently. The posts run the gamut, from Jerry Clark's and my
 >>opinion that it was a balloon, to John Velez's suggestion that
 >>he'll believe the witnesses and the family rather than the Air
 >>Force and the researchers.

 >That's the second time you mention my name. Could this be love?
 >If so, sorry Kevin, I'm not among the 48% gay abductees that
 >your survey came up with. If it's 'love' it must go unrequited.

<vbg>

Just mentioned you here because you had been on the other side
from Jerry Clark and me. It was a suggestion here that
reasonable people can disagree on the importance and relevance
of specific areas of evidence.

<snip>

 >>It seems to me that there are several others who could do the
 >>same. John Velez has the dust bunny experiment which would lend
 >>itself to this sort of activity. Bruce Maccabee might want to
 >>put together something on Kenneth Arnold or Gulf Breeze. Sean
 >>Jones had volunteered to write up one of his cases for the
 >>review.

 >Wow! Three mentions in one post. It _must be_ love! Either; you
 >_really_ want me to be involved in this project... or you
 >_really_ want to 'set me up.'  Knowing your feelings about me, I
 >kinda suspect the latter.  But that's ok, I'll bite. Your
 >proposal is a good idea and I'd like to contribute what I can to
 >making it a reality. I'm sure I'll discover what you 'really
 >want with me' soon enough.  <lol>

I'm not trying to set up anyone. I've just grown tired of some
of the infighting in the UFO field and hoped this might be a way
to reduce some of it and to elevate our research to a point
where it is not just dismissed as the rantings of the believers.
And, I would even include myself in that because, heaven forbid,
I believe that some UFOs represent alien craft.

 >Re: Dust Bunny's

 >Kevin, all I have of the dust bunny experiment is a series of
 >photos that Nick Balaskas sent to me. I never received any kind
 >of formal report from Nick, nor did I receive any of the
 >original samples that were submitted. Otherwise, I would have
 >posted it to the List ages ago.

 >That, is the reason why I have never posted anything about the
 >dust bunny project to a webpage. All I have for posting is
 >series of close-up photos of dust.

 >I have tried on three separate occasions to wrangle a formal
 >report out of Nick. Maybe someone with your reputation will have
 >better luck. Before anything can be posted to the web, we need
 >to know how the samples were handled, how they were
 >studied/analyzed, and what (if any) the results of that study
 >showed. Until then, as I have repeatedly stated on this List, I
 >cannot post anything. All I have is pictures of dust samples. I
 >had nothing to do with the actual study, and that's the part
 >that's still missing. If Nick posts a report to the List I will
 >be happy to create a webpage with his report and the photos.

Understood, John. I thought of the Dust Bunny experiment as one
that should be explored if all the data are there. And, I was
just trying to think of examples of what might make good
articles for this peer review, and who some of the advocates are
for some aspects of the topic. Stan Friedman might want to
contribute something on MJ-12, for example. Jerry Clark might be
able to do something on the Airship of 1897.

 >In other words, the process is about to begin.

 >John Velez, -the alleged 'other end of the spectrum' from
 >Bob Young.

But aren't you at the alleged other end from Bob?

And for those keeping score at home, I have begun the process of
writing up the Mantell case, which means I am gathering all the
information I can and thinking about the format which, if I do
this right, can be used as a template for other articles.

Now, pushing the ball down the hill.

KRandle








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:39:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:13:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:22:34 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:11 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>Looking through what I have written, can you find anywhere where
 >>I have said that a large Saturn-shaped object - "structure" is
 >>begging the question a bit, isn't it - was not photographed over
 >>Trindade Island? In fact I think at one point I said I was open
 >>to the possibility that it was some sort of natural phenomena.
 >>But in Jerry's view, anything other than "it's a spaceship" is
 >>debunking.

 >Now, maybe this is a slip, or a careless statement. But John
 >does _not_ say that he's open to the possibility that the
 >Trinidade photos show an unknown physical object, maybe even an
 >intelligently controlled craft. I'll conclude, unless he gives
 >me good reason not to, that he doesn't believe in that
 >possibility.

 >So, despite John's protestations -- who's got the open mind?
 >Jerry, who contradicts believers, and says that a purported UFO
 >was actually a balloon? Or John, who apparently won't allow the
 >possibility that a disputed UFO photograph even _might_ show an
 >unknown object?


At the moment I have no particular idea what the Trindade
photographs represent, and that is not the point I'm arguing.
The start of this very long debate was when I challenged the
assumption that the strength of the Trindade case was that there
were 48 witnesses to the event. Two weeks into the argument and
we still do not have the names of any other than the three named
by the photographer, and we do not have any recorded statement
by these people of any of the other 45 (?) about what happened.

People on this list are constantly comparing the UFO evidence to
that presented in a court of law. Try admitting this third-hand
hearsay evidence and you'd be thrown out: "Yes, your honour,
there were 48 people who saw the accused batter the little old
lady over the head and steal her purse -- well, I don't actually
know their names,. and I've never spoken to them myself, but if
any of them hadn't seen it, surely they would have made a
statement to the police".

Not very convincing!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                           Re: Mantell - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:55:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:48:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Balaskas


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:59:38 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:42:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

<snip>

 >>What I found very unconvincing is that ATIC/Menzel's Skyhook
 >>balloon would have been moving in a S-W direction, contrary to
 >>the ususal winds in this region and especially the jetstream, at
 >>higher altitudes - which normally blows to the E. Never-the-
 >>less, Menzel makes the following incredible and very
 >>unscientific declaration:

<snip>

 >Dear Nick Bill-Ask-Us, (can't spell Greek names), List and EBK;

 >I also read Bruce Make a Bee's (can't spell that moniker either)
 >comments and I have this to say about that.

 >There is one element in this research that is being left out.
 >When the winds are blowing hard up there in the heavyside, a
 >balloon may change it's shape from teardrop to a more flattened
 >shape. It's made to be elastic. Blowing hard in the upper
 >atmosphere, the teardrop shape may become more like a rounded,
 >horizontal shape. This is what Mantell _may_ have seen.

 >Just a thought.

Greetings Jim!

I have not got around to reading Jerry Clark's published account
of the Mantell case so I will reserve further judgement but
since the first Skyhook balloon (one of thousands?) was launched
in September 25, 1947 from Minnesota (and later other
locations), one would suspect that over three months later air
traffic controllers and pilots down wind would know all about
these huge "secret" balloon flights which can be seen for many
miles. The many different and very distant locations on Menzel's
map and the times when they also allegedly noticed this same
Skyhook balloon still does not seem to fit the expected motion
of any balloon at high altitude.

 From this unusual flight path, there is reason to suspect that
there was an unknown object up there in the N.E. region of the
U.S., in addition to the Skyhook balloon. Captain Mantell likely
encountered this unknown object.

Captain Mantell's UFO/P-51 encounter was not unique and studying
other such early incidents yield further support that what he
was chasing was not a Skyhook balloon. Astronaut Donald Slayton
is on record that he too also encountered a UFO while flying a
P-51 over Minnesota. As he got closer his UFO looked like a
weather balloon but wasn't (it become more saucer shaped).

If you do a search for actual images of Skyhook balloon, you
will see that they start out as elongated inverted teardrop
shapes and at their maximum altitudes become nearly spherical in
shape from the much lower air pressures at greater heights. The
high velocity jetstream does not seem to distort the shape much
from a general spherical form.


Nick Bill-Ask-Us
(I can't spell Greek names either)








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:05:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:51:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Rimmer


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:27:51 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:17:41 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >Hmm, maybe all this pelican dung has made my imagination overly
 >fertile. Once again John, why don't you start flapping your
 >wings in a southern direction and look in Brazil if you want
 >further information as to what happened down by Trinidade
 >island? Flapping them here is just building a bigger dung pile
 >and staining my poopdeck on my computer. Can you describe a
 >dicky bird and its dung? Maybe that is what this is all about?
 >Hmm.

"Dicky Bird" = "Word"
Cockney rhyming slang.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk










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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:47:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:56:15 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Myers


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:27:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >List, EKB (of ekb), All -

 >>List if Errol is willing [Of course!--ebk].

 >Good, I think this allows all of here to review it.

 >>I'll ask someone
 >>else [ebk? --ebk] to be the point of contact for the comments of
 >>others and to forward them to me.

 >I hadn't wanted to impose further burden, but I find ebk to be
 >acceptable for this. I would only add that we need to keep a
 >record of who said what in case that comes up later, but the
 >authors of the various articles have no real need to know this
 >until the process is completed and then there is no reason for
 >it other than idle curiosity.



My website is always open for any UFO news or features...

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM







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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:42:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:00:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:05:23 EDT
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:39:12 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>My apologies to the List for taking so long to throw in my two
 >>cents. OK, a dime. I've been battling an eye disease, so the
 >>efforts to post are herculean at the moment and will be far and
 >>few between for awhile.

 ><snip>

 >Wendy:

 >I sincerely hope you will be OK. Also that you had a good summer
 >holiday and are back ready to have some fun.

 >Have you found the Robert Shaeffer citation re CSICOP?


Hi Bob,

Lousy summer so far. Can't see the Pelican's clearly, but
eyesight will improve I'm told. Wearing extremely dark glasses
and one eye covered isn't exactly a thrill. At least I know it's
a parrot on my shoulder and not a Pelican. <G>

Re: Robert Shaeffer citation. Since he personally said on UFO
Updates that he indeed said what I quoted, I'll still give you
the citation because I know Pelicanist's can be somewhat dense
at times.

Try tape 3 of cassettes from Visual Education Associates UFO
programs. Now, since you can't believe Robert's own admission
(what a skeptic's skeptic you are!), you have the citation. You
are very lax in knowledge regarding my work or you would know I
never write without plenty of documentation to back it up. Or
don't you have my books or read my articles in IUR? Shame for
shame. A good skeptic should at least do their homework, but
from what I keep reading, Pelicanists usually don't before
dropping their loads. <G>

I'm really disappointed that old Phil shut up after his
challenge to me. Bet that kinda torqued you off too that Big
Daddy ran with his tail between his webbed feet. Just goes to
show you, that among Pelicanists, there just ain't no loyalty on
their "Roads to Perdition." <G>

Thumb in your eye,

Wendy Connors








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                      Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

From: Larry Bryant <evelarr@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:54:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:03:26 -0400
Subject: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post


------ Original Message -----
From: To: letters@washpost.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 10:22pm
To: <letters@washpost.com>
Subject: Submission of Letter-to-Editor for Publication in the Washington Post

TO: Letters-to-the-Editor
The Washington Post
1150 15th Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20071

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
3518 Martha Custis Drive
Alexandria, VA 22302
Phone: 703-931-3341

DATE: July 15, 2002

To the Editor:

When a band of protestors from a UFO-oriented public-interest
group called Operation Right-to-Know descended upon the
Washington Post headquarters several years ago to decry the
Post's woeful lack of in-depth coverage of the so-called UFO
coverup, they learned that the Post has a self-serving defense
of its nonfeasance: "If UFOs exist as alien spacecraft, we Post
editors would be the first to know about it."

For 55 years, that defense has put the Post behind the power
curve on what the government knows (and when it knew it) about
UFO-E.T. reality.

Amidst this intellectual vacuum has emerged another missed
opportunity for the Post organization to take a leadership role
in exposing the Cosmic Watergate: the lack of coverage of the
independent run-for-Congress being mounted by Montgomery County,
Md., resident Stephen Bassett. The centerpiece for his campaign
-- http://www.disclosure2003.net -- challenges the Congress, the
electorate, and the mainstream media to eschew the UFO-E.T.
status quo in favor of demanding accountability from the keepers
of the Ultimate Secret (i.e., official, suppressed knowledge
that some of the reported unidentified flying objects represent
hardware from elsewhere).

Does the Post view his campaign as a threat to its lame defense
of inaction (or, worse, to its alleged complicity in the
government's putdown of UFO-related activism)? If so, then your
publisher and executive editor not only have lost another
opportunity to help set the record straight; they've also
undermined the reading public's confidence in the Fourth
Estate's ability to function as a watchdog medium and as a
conveyor of essential evidence for productive self-government.


LARRY W. BRYANT
Director, Washington, D.C., Office
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy
Alexandria, Va.






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                Re: March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:21:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting? - Hatch


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 12:29:11 -0300
 >Subject: March 25, 1981 Toronto Sighting?

 >List:

 >I am seeking any information about a sighting of a
 >large UFO observed after 5PM less than 200' across from
 >the 23rd Floor of the Sutton Place Hotel in Downtown
 >Toronto on about March 25, 1981.

 >It was about half the size of a football field, had
 >lights around it and a dome on top. The witness didn't
 >see any post sighting press coverage, but because of
 >some other factors, would like to find other witnesses.

 >Stan Friedman

- - - -

Hello Stan:

Bad news here, the only thing I have for that entire week was
from 6 boat crews off the coast of Spain. 1981 looks like a slow
year here. Maybe Don Johnson has something.


Best

- Larry

= = = = =








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                  Re: Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:18:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports - Hatch


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 05:04:09 +0200
 >Subject: Wisconsin 2nd Highest Reports

 >Source: Marshfield News Herald (Wisconsin),
 >http://www.wisinfo.com/newsherald/mnhlocal/275589675674335.shtml

 >Fri, Jul 12, 2002

 >Wisconsin has history of UFO sightings

 >By Amy E. Bowen Of the News-Herald

 >**

 >Wisconsin isn't New Mexico, but it's close. Wisconsin has the
 >nation's second-highest number of Unidentified Flying Object
 >sightings - second only to New Mexico.

 >That fact sparked the interest of a Sheboygan man.

<snip>


What rot.

Out of 7829 cases in the *U* Database, Wisconsin has a
respectable 158 of those, almost exactly the 2% one would expect
if sightings were divided evenly, which of course they are not.

Ranked by raw sightings-event counts, Wisconsin ranks 17th out
of 50 states plus the District of Columbia.

One routine here also ranks the States/Provinces by highest
counts per square mile, and then again by counts per 1000
population. The routine only lists the top 20 for both
breakdowns, and Wisconsin doesn't even show at the bottom of
either list.

Note also the blithe assumption that New Mexico tops the list.
For raw sightings counts, NM comes in 9th (ninth) after CA, TX,
OH, PA, FL, NY, WA and even little Massachusetts!

In fact, DC and MAss top the list for sightings per unit area,
due to their small size. NM and ND head the list for sightings
per 1000 population, mainly due to small populations.

Maybe somebody stole a page out of the Scottish Tourism Bureau
literature.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Jul > Jul 16

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 362

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@libero.it>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:28:40 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:11:26 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 362


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 362 -  12 JULY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Italian Sightings 2002: The Statistics So Far
- Countdown for Hessdalen 2002
- New UFO Thesis From The CISU


ITALIAN SIGHTINGS 2002: THE STATISTICS SO FAR

The CISU working group on caselog has released the summary of
data relative to UFO sightings in Italy during the first half of
this year.

The level of UFO activity remains high, with 225 reports
gathered and catalogued by the Italian Center for UFO Studies. A
fourth of these concern a "flap," i.e., a group of contemporary
sightings. January, March and May turned out to be the richest
months, and May itself represents the actual peak as of
phenomena, with 48 single cases (none of which was part of a
"flap").

As usual, leading the classification of the most visited regions
are Lombardy (with 42 reports) and Emilia-Romagna (with 32),
followed by Piedmont, Tuscany and Lazio (at least 20 cases,
respectively). The northern regions continue to take the lion's
share, with more than half of the sightings.

As far as the sightings went, there were only 15 daytime ones,
15 close encounters, 3 cases of humanoids, as many as 23 reports
documented with photos or videos, and 16 cases involving traces
or effects on the environment.

The first half of 2002 proved equal to that same period last
year, thanks to a higher average during the first 5 months:
although this remained constant also in the month of June,
without the peak in reports which, last year, triggered the
summer wave. Meanwhile, it seems that the total number of cases
collected for 2001 has now become stable, reaching the 770 mark.

[Communication by Giorgio Abraini]


COUNTDOWN  FOR HESSDALEN 2002

The Italian Committee for Project Hessdalen has announced the
next kickoff for the 2002 summer mission expedition, entirely
organized and financed by the same committee, in the Norwegian
valley where the most systematic worldwide attempt at the
instrumental surveillance of strange, recurring luminous
phenomena has been underway for years.

This is the third year that the CIPH has actively participated
and contributed at the operations level in Project Hessdalen,
led since 1983 by Scandinavian researchers with mixed results.
Once again participating in the Italian expedition this year are
technicians of the CNR (National Research Council) and
university-level researchers who will take turns at Hessdalen
providing updates on technical/computer-informational resources
destined for radio, radar and optic-photographic surveillance
(plus videotaping, stereoscopy, spectroscopic analyses).

There will be among these, for the first time, a ufologist:
Matteo Leone, a graduate in Physics from the University of Turin
currently doing his Ph.D. in History of Physics at the
University of Bari, has been  as well a member and an
investigator for over 10 years with the Italian Center for UFO
Studies.

[Communication by Renzo Cabassi]


NEW UFO THESIS FROM THE CISU

UPIAR Publications has issued the 29th monograph of the
"Documenti UFO" ("UFO Documents") collection, care of the
Italian Center for UFO Studies.

It is authored by Daniele Parisi and is the publication of his
degree thesis in Sociology of Knowledge

http://www.CISUorg/thesis2000.htm

presented in December 2000 before the Faculty of Political
Science at the University of Turin,  for which he also received
the Alberto Lazzaro Award from the CISU for best paper on the
UFO argument last year.

It is entitled "Il fenomeno UFO come costruzione sociale  - Dai
dischi volanti al culto dell'extraterrestre ("The UFO Phenomenon
as a Social Construction  - from Flying Saucers to
Extraterrestrial Cult"), totals 76 pages, and sells for 8 Euro
(6.40 for CISU subscribers; free for members of the "In Good
Standing" category).

[Collaboration by Fabrizio Dividi]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Giorgio Abraini, Renzo Cabassi and Fabrizio Dividi.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,
10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:

- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   Jul > Jul 16

                NICAP's Original Rebuttal To The Condon Study

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:39:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:13:17 -0400
Subject: NICAP's Original Rebuttal To The Condon Study


Forwarded from 'alt.alien.research'.
Posted: Tue, 16 Jul 2002, 04:45:31 EDT.

Stig

***

From: Info <info@info.com>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.research
Subject: NICAP's original rebuttal to the Condon Study.
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:45:31 GMT

If any of you still have even the slightest doubt that the
Sturrock panel wasn't 100% justified in re-evaluating and
revising Dr. Condon's conclusions from the 1966 Colorado Study,
the following page recently added to my web site, may be of
interest.

With so many years having past, younger skeptics may not have
ever seen NICAP's original rebuttal to the Condon Study. It was
taken from The UFO Investigator, January 1969, Vol. IV, Special
Edition. I happened to come across it as I was researching
something else.

http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm


Respectfully,

Jerry Cohen

http://www.cohenufo.org/








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   Jul > Jul 16

                    Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:59:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:14:53 -0400
Subject: Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War'


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2128000/2128488.stm

Go to the page for related links!

Stig

***

Monday, 15 July, 2002, 01:01 GMT 02:01 UK

**

Asteroids 'could trigger nuclear war'

*

A small asteroid could accidentally trigger a nuclear war if
mistaken for a missile strike, experts have warned.

Scientists and military chiefs studying the threat are calling
for a global warning centre to be set up to inform governments
immediately of asteroid impacts.

The risk is seen as particularly grave if an asteroid blast were
to happen in areas of military tension, such as over nuclear-
armed neighbours India and Pakistan

Each year about 30 asteroids several metres in length pierce the
atmosphere and explode, with even the smaller sized ones
unleashing as much energy as the nuclear bomb dropped on
Hiroshima in Japan.


'Panic' reaction


Earlier this month, an Israeli pilot flying an airliner over the
Ukraine reported seeing a blue flash in the sky similar to the
type of blast caused by a surface-to-air missile, despite
Ukrainian authorities saying no such missile had been fired.

Experts now believe the pilot saw an explosion caused by an
asteroid entering the Earth's atmosphere at high speed.

Experts met last week in the US capital Washington DC to discuss
what might have happened had such an explosion occurred over a
volatile area such as the India-Pakistan region.

"Neither of those nations has the sophisticated sensors we do
that can determine the difference between a natural Neo (near-
  Earth object) impact and a nuclear detonation," Air Force
Brigadier General Simon Worden from the US Space Command told
the Aerospace Daily newspaper.

"The resulting panic in the nuclear-armed and hair-trigger
militaries there could have been the spark for a nuclear war."


Warning centre call


The incident over Ukraine was also extremely politically
sensitive.

Last year, 78 people died when a Russian airliner flying from
Israel was hit over Ukraine by what was believed to have been a
stray missile fired during a military exercise.

Although the US has its own sophisticated military satellites
which can detect launches and detonations of weapons and
asteroid explosions, General Worden said that he and other
experts would like to see a new warning centre established which
would gather information on asteroid explosions and make it
available to all governments.

It is hoped that the shared information would prevent a disaster
occurring, and a study looking at the possibility of such a
centre is now reportedly being developed in the US Defense
Department.

**

=A9 BBC

=A9 MMII






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   Jul > Jul 16

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:28:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:16:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Reason


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:17:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

Bob:

 >I wish that I knew. I think that it must be related to belief,
 >not a physical factor. Otherwise, how to account for all of the
 >Identified Flying Objects (IFOs) which were distant planets or
 >stars?

You don't know? You mean your identification depends on some
psychological mechanism which generates a witness report from
some hypothetical IFO, but that you have no idea what this
mechanism is, what function it subserves in the mind/brain
system, what parameters determine the type and magnitude of
error that it will support, or even whether it exists? How
scientific is that? That sounds to me about as scientific as a
Tarot reading.

 >It may also be related to position in the sky, as the Full Moon
 >effect. Without the Moon to look at, very few people believe
 >that it has the diameter of one's little finger nail at arm's
 >length. This effect, though, is actually one in which the viewer
 >apparently unconciously thinks that the Moon is much further
 >away, hence has become "larger".

Yes, for exactly the same reason that you can't look up the
Spanish translation of English words in the Spanish-English
section of a dictionary. That part of the dictionary isn't set
up to handle information flow in that direction. In the same
way, the visual system is set up to interpret a two-dimensional
stimulus array in terms of a three-dimensional spatial
construct, not the other way round.

Cathy








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   Jul > Jul 16

                    Re: Apropos Trindade Isle - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:45:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:18:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Apropos Trindade Isle - Friedman


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Apropos Trindade Isle
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:28:13 +0000

 >Searching through the dusty corners of the Donald E. Keyhoe
 >Archives, I have found a cache of untranslated non-English
 >newspaper clippings (Colonial for cuttings) on UFOs from the
 >1950s through 1980s. Most are in Spanish, and some in
 >Portuguese, with a few in French or German.

 >Amongst the Portuguese is the front page of Correio da Manha for
 >Feb. 21, 1958, reporting the Trindade Isle case and showing six
 >photos. There may be others on that case too; I have not looked
 >through all of them yet.

 >Anyone willing to do some translations can contact me offline.

 >The deal will be that one copy of the translation and the
 >originals be returned to me, and the translator may do whatever
 >he or she likes with the translation. Any that are relevant to
 >ongoing UFO UpDates discussions I will post here.


Sounds like a very important find. Helps justify my huge paper
collection here.

I would suggest A.J. Gevaerd in Brazil for the Portuguese
clippings since he edits a magazine that could probably use them
as well.

[A.J. is an UpDates subscriber --ebk]

Stan Friedman








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   Jul > Jul 16

                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:08:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:21:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:39:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:20:15 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

Hello Kevin, All,

You wrote:

 >>>I have a proposal to begin, in part, the referee process. I
 >>>believe that this List contains the proper credentials to engage
 >>>in such an activity. Opinions range from the skeptical of Young
 >>>Bob and Bruce Hutchinson to those at the other end such as John
 >>>Velez.

<snip>

 >But aren't you at the alleged other end from Bob?

First, as I stated in my original response; I think your idea is
terrific and I'll do whatever I can to help actualize it. Just
let me know what I can do to help.

Re: Me and Bob and opposite ends of the spectrum.

Granted that both Bob and myself can be a bit headstrong about
our positions from time to time, but that's true of just about
everyone on the List. I don't think that either one of us
represents an 'extreme' polar opposite of anything.

I have been bantering back and forth with Bob for years now. We
both know each other's views and although we may 'go at it' over
one issue or another, we have always maintained _respect_ for
each other. Something that I cannot say for very many others on
the List, although there are a 'few.'

In fact, one of the things I have always liked about Bob is that
regardless of who agrees with it or not, likes it or not, he's
never afraid to speak his mind or to ask the 'hard' questions. I
am the same way. We may stand on opposite sides of the fence...
but that's not the same as standing in 'polar opposite
positions' to one another.

We have more 'sames' than 'differences.'

We both demand solid and reliable information. We both want
answers to questions that few seem willing to investigate or
deal with. Neither one is concerned with winning any popularity
contests or 'making a name' for ourselves. All either of us
cares about is getting some solid and straight answers to some
really important and tough questions.

We are more alike than we are different in the sense that we
both seek honest, accurate, and hopefully dependable information
from those who present themselves as "experts" or investigators.
We both share what I consider to be a healthy Missouri 'show me'
attitude toward all the many uninvestigated claims that are made
and toward the whole phenomenon in general.

A more accurate portrayal of Bob and myself would be two guys
asking the _same_ questions from two different perspectives. I
have always viewed and related to Bob as an _honest_ man. He
thinks what he thinks, says what he says, asks hard questions
whether they will be greeted with open arms or angst and most of
all, he does so with the same "damn the torpedoes" attitude that
I myself do. Nope, I don't see him or myself as standing on
"opposite" sides of anything. I consider Bob my 'brother in
arms' in an unending battle to grope our way towards Truth
through the morass of 'personalities', BS and misinformation
that is 'modern ufology.'

I will state publicly: that I like and respect the hell out of
Bob Young and that I hope he keeps doing what he's doing.
Without guys like Bob (or myself and a few others) _questioning_
everything_ we'll never get straight answers to anything. I
laugh to myself when I see people attacking Bob personally for
asking his questions and expressing his _honestly held_ views.

 >Now, pushing the ball down the hill.

Let me know what I can do to help out, Kevin. I am at your
service should you require it.


Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Jul > Jul 16

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:23:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:25:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:39:25 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>So, despite John's protestations -- who's got the open mind?
 >>Jerry, who contradicts believers, and says that a purported UFO
 >>was actually a balloon? Or John, who apparently won't allow the
 >>possibility that a disputed UFO photograph even _might_ show an
 >>unknown object?

 >At the moment I have no particular idea what the Trindade
 >photographs represent, and that is not the point I'm arguing.
 >The start of this very long debate was when I challenged the
 >assumption that the strength of the Trindade case was that there
 >were 48 witnesses to the event. Two weeks into the argument and
 >we still do not have the names of any other than the three named
 >by the photographer, and we do not have any recorded statement
 >by these people of any of the other 45 (?) about what happened.

 >People on this list are constantly comparing the UFO evidence to
 >that presented in a court of law. Try admitting this third-hand
 >hearsay evidence and you'd be thrown out: "Yes, your honour,
 >there were 48 people who saw the accused batter the little old
 >lady over the head and steal her purse -- well, I don't actually
 >know their names,. and I've never spoken to them myself, but if
 >any of them hadn't seen it, surely they would have made a
 >statement to the police".

 >Not very convincing!

Court of law? I'm reminded more of a basketball court. You shift
your position faster than a player with the basketball, trying
to fake out the opposition. But at least he'll admit he's
faking.

Nothing in your post addresses the point I made. You'd
criticized "believers" - meaning Jerry Clark - for never
accepting evidence that contradicts their beliefs. I presented
Jerry opposing believers in the Mantell case, and presented you,
John, apparently ruling out any possibility that the Trinidade
photos might show a physical object.

My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: At least in this
one instance, someone you tag as a believer is far more open-
minded than you seem to be.

Now you reply with this nonsense about a court of law. And it truly is
nonsense. The Trinidade case isn't being presented in court.

Essentially, you and Jerry are arguing about it as historians. What
should a historian conclude about this event from the past, given what
we have on the admittedly scanty record?

As Jerry keeps pointing out, there are many references to
witnesses, all couched in language that tells us the witnesses
were spoken to by the authorities. Historians would accept that.
They wouldn't consider it as strong as witness testimony that's
actually documented, with names of the witnesses, and
transcripts of what they said. But historians, if they had to
come to a conclusion, would at least tentatively agree that
there very likely were witnesses.

You have no evidence, none at all, that suggests that there
weren't. All you have are conjectures, which, quite frankly, I
can't believe you'd venture if you weren't panting to poke holes
in the case. And your conjectures are, often enough, just plain
silly.

"The Brazilian Navy would never have taken all those days to get
the photos, if the photos were truly that important." Or words
to that effect. Pure fantasy.

All you have to do is read the newspaper every day to find, over
and over again, cases where official bodies don't act
efficiently. I mentioned two rather spectacular instances in a
post just a few days ago - which, I notice, you didn't respond
to.

Don't you have the grace to admit it when you're clearly wrong?


Wasting my time,

Greg Sandow







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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:18:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:47:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Roberts


 >From: Colin Bennett <colin@bennettc25.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:26:18 +0100
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >I notice that John Rimmer did not reply in detail producing a
 >disastrous effect on the Fortean Times through the exclusion of
 >all ufological material. But be that as it may, John Rimmer says
 >that a certain person I saw on the recent Uncon panel died some
 >years ago. That may be, but nevertheless this same said person
 >has just had published a book (whose title escapes me) with
 >Dave.

As John rightly pointed out Bennett's intentional 'forgetting'
who wrote what is merely, like 99% of his words an affected
conceit to imply that Colin is so clever, why he can't even
remember other people. He does mean Dave Clarke and I and he can't
bear to say our names. Like Demons if we are named the believers
have to accept that we're here, have been since long before most
of them and aren't going away.

Graham Birdsall used to play the same game though has now, to
his credit, accepted we are pretty damn good researchers and
writers. Nick Pope and Georgina Bruni still play the same game
to the extent that they even have to steal our research and
claim it for their own!

 >This  book is important if only because it just happens to
 >be the greatest piece of British revisionary history since the
 >Owl and the Pussy Cat set sail in their pea-green boat.

Now, whilst I'm sure you all understand what Colin means, quite
frankly I don't - other than that it is pretentious nonsense
designed, well, designed to make you think Colin is cleverer
than you. Our book is a factually based book which looks at the
history of the UK Government's involvement with UFOs from 1940
onwards. When and until Colin can produce anything of similar
calibre, he should keep it shut and stick to the fantasy world he
so clearly inhabits.

 >This book rivals even efforts of David Irving and the Holocaust
 >denial-mongers, although admittedly with a somewhat somewhat
 >more liberal tendeny.

Colin's analogies are set deep in the Empire and particularly
WWII. Was his mother frightened by a GI we wonder? The above is
too stupid to even contemplate - does anyone (and please let's
have some reaction here instead of the usual head in the sand
response) - anyone really equate _any_ UFO writing with that of
David Irving (who believes that there was no holocaust)?

How does language like that make the Jews and Germans on this
List feel? If Bennett wishes to trivialise mass-slaughter by
weakly connecting it to UFO writing I think, to quote Jerry
Clark, that it tells us more about him than.....

It also clearly demonstrates his weak grip on reality, history
and morality.

 >The sublime trust of this rural pair
 >(either dead or alive) in evidence derived from the Public
 >Records Office indeed gives me a feeling that one or other of
 >the duo might be well be dead indeed, making John Rimmer correct
 >for once, if only on the rather narrow subject of ghost writers.

Oh my sides. The humour of it all. Yes we are 'rural' and damn
happy not to live in a city - what of it, word-boy?

 >I know for a certainty that Dave is alive, because he threatened
 >to punch me in the face on stage at the very beginning of the
 >Ufology is Dead discussion.

Your inability to even listen to those you don't like is
astounding, Colin. When you were well into one of your rants
about 'reality', Dave pointed out that, if he hit you in the face
your post modernist conceits would be as nothing and reality
would be aptly demonstrated.

 >Since Peter Brookesmith (another pelican) was between us, and he
 >is (I ruefully admit) one of the best writers on guns in the
 >world, I thought it best not to take Dave up on his offer, if
 >only to do so would have been to cross Brookesmith's line of
 >sight.

Scaredy cat!

 >Having spoken extensively in the 1970s and 1980s to
 >people who knew both Churchill and R.V. Jones personally (such
 >as the writer Guy Wint, Bill Williams, Montgomery's Intelligence
 >Officer in African and Europe, and Isaiah Berlin, the Oxford
 >philosopher, to name but a few) that the god of many "field
 >researchers" as they call themselves, namely  the Public Records
 >Office has been doctored throughout. The Master of Balliol (Sir
 >Christopher Hill, mighty historian) told both myself, MI6 man-
 >to-be Mac McMillan, and Howard Marx (who was to create over
 >thirty years of unparalleled urban drug-legends, and one of the
 >few men to escape a CIA death-squad) that he would trust us no
 >more than he would trust the Public Records Office, and that is
 >some horse's mouth. With such laurels did we take our leave of
 >the dreaming spires.

Here we go... we are now asked to accept that because some
people 'told' Colin something it must be true. That's not how
ufology, or any other branch of history  works Colin. You have
to actually do some research, outside of your imagination and
belief, and present the evidence. It's not as easy as it looks
as you're finding out and far easier to, well, just pretend
you're cleverer than everyone else. How can you prove you
'spoke' to these people - where's your interview tapes? Taped
interviews too real for you eh?

 >Concerning the much vaunted Public Records Office, I can now
 >tell a national secret, although after fifty years I doubt if
 >John Bull will come after me.

In that case why aren't all the UFO 'whistleblowers' queing up
to tell their tales Colin? Ah, forgot, one rule of 'reality'
when the evidence suits you, one when it doesn't. How very post
modern.

<snip> --on the grounds that Colin's example was rubbish

 >Now RV Jones was certainly the British Menzel.  Schooled in
 >wartime secrecy, he emerged from the War as the world's greatest
 >expert on electronic Intelligence detection, analysis, and
 >interpretation. After the war, as a Professor at Aberdeen, he
 >was active (with such as Tizard, Pye, Blackett, Zuckerman,
 >Appleton, and Cockroft) as the most senior theoretician
 >regarding the burgeoning GCHQ system, with men like Bernard
 >Lovell (pre Jodrell Bank) designing the hardware in full
 >consultation with all the US security elements.

Interesting. Jones was barely mentioned in the literature until
Dave and I brought his contribution into play (and I was in
correspondence with him as far back as '87). At the time of
writing 'Shadows' I remarked that the first thing the believers
would do is to twist Jones' pragmatic UFO research and
conclusions into some form of pseudo-Menzelian plot.

Star prize to you Colin!

But just where is you evidence for the aabove statements? Ahh,
forgot, 'evidence' is just an arriviste imposter hiding behind
the clapboard conbstructions of reality. Or, put simply, you
can't be arsed to actually do any research.

 >All of these
 >people were in the UFO loop, including Mounbatten (with his
 >Boadlands experience),

The Broadlands UFO was a hoax Colin - we have evidence of that.
Outside of your imagination have you evidence to the contrary?

 >and even Montgomery and Alexander, who
 >ot into the loop through the Canadian connection. All of these
 >en were in the UFO coverup, and certainly Jones covered up the
 >Swedish ghost-rockets (which were genuine UFOs).

Whoa, there Neddy. Your proof for the above assertion is? You
are just bullshitting us Colin. You have no proof and I'll wager
haven't even been through the ghost rocket stuff in the PRO.
What a laugh. While we're talking about the PRO, how about this
one...you castigate us for doing more research in the PRO than
*any* other UFO researchers, yet your oft quoted heroes, Good,
Pope etc have all based their books on their meagre researchers
there. Or, in the post modernist universe perhaps 'less is more'
is the watchword eh?

 >In a similar
 >manner, he turned other UFO sightings and the mysterious car-
 >engine stopping incidents into jokes (like most scientists, he
 >had a child's sense of humour, and the emotional range and
 >maturity of a matchstick).

And your proof is? Our proof for the contrary is in Out Of The
Shadows. There you can read *all* about R.V. Jones with all
information based on properly referenced sources. On the other
hand, if you prefer the ramblings of a post modernist fence
sitter you only need to read Colin's emails. Because he's
cleverer than you he doesn't need to cite sources because, well,
because he's cleverer than you!

 >Churchill himself was shut out of the
 >loop by the pompous and ineffectual Lindemann, whose scientific
 >mind had not advanced beyond the early nineteen thirties. What
 >Jones did to official documentation is as yet an untold story.

Well shut up wittering and tell us then Colin!

 >As with Menzel, journeys, times, and dates were all fabricated,
 >and Jone's Professorship at Aberdeen was a complete fa=E7ade of
 >those pleasantries and that puerile conventionality that the
 >British use to try and cover the gaps in anything and
 >everything.

Oh dear. Your evidence for this nonsense Colin? Which journeys,
times and dates were fabricated? How do you know? Did someone
'tell' you? I rather suspect that we're back in the land of your
imagination again and what a dull, repetetive paranoid place it
is Colin. You should get out more. You know, into 'reality'.

 >Thus was the immediate postwar UFO "managed" rather
 >than investigated. The phenomenon being quite beyond terms of
 >physical reference at that time, most probably what undoubtedly
 >clever men like Jones and Menzel decided on was not a technical
 >>matter, but a form of words, resulting in a motif which
 >strangely repeats itself in both British and American formats
 >for generations. "These things are of no defence significance".
 >Whenever I see that famous phrase in books and magazines, I hear
 >Jones' voice, and I hear British public school language

Your point being?

Unfortunately individuals like Colin come and go in ufology.
They bring their ideas (often new age, always wooly) to the
subject and expect to solve it within a year or so and can't
understand why few people agree with them.

Colin has taken this to a new level. With his adolescent
pretence that facts are, well, whatever he deems them to be, and
his belief that we are all impressed by convoluted language (we
can all talk what Ian Dury called 'bollo') he has shown up the
embarrasing side of UK ufology.

All that said I am so pleased to see Colin on this list. Firstly
because the more rational US researchers will now see what we
have to contend with. And secondly, and more importantly, while
Colin is ranting here he's not bothering any other poor souls!

Most funny of all Colin's insistence that he is the final
arbiter of 'reality' and 'fact' which just kills me. As does his
tripe in a previous post where he pontificated about the beliefs
of those he does not agree with. This demonstrated a sad lack of
knowledge of the writing and research in other areas by,
certainly Dave Clarke and myself, and many of the other UK
sceptics. Anyway, back to 'reality'. It's traditional in England
to settle one's differences over a pint and Colin clearly has
differences he can't resolve, let alone understand. I don't
drink but I'll happily settle my differences with Colin over 500
mics of blue windowpane acid - and then I'll show him a thing or
two about the nature his beloved 'facts' and 'realities'.

I'll leave you with the following two quotes. Both of which I
believe in and both of which make more sense than Colin's entire
word hoard.

'You may have observed when you walk into a wall you get a
certain sensation of reality'
             --Robin Williamson, Incredible String Band, 1968

'There's nothing there at all'
  --Ivan Pawle, Dr Strangely Strange, 1970


Happy Trails

Andy








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   Jul > Jul 16

                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:45:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:50:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser


 >From: Larry Bryant <evelarr@msn.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:54:04 -0400
 >Subject: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

Larry Bryant commenting about the Stephen Bassett Congressional
bid, wrote:

 >Does the Post view his campaign as a threat to its lame defense
 >of inaction (or, worse, to its alleged complicity in the
 >government's putdown of UFO-related activism)? If so, then your
 >publisher and executive editor not only have lost another
 >opportunity to help set the record straight; they've also
 >undermined the reading public's confidence in the Fourth
 >Estate's ability to function as a watchdog medium and as a
 >conveyor of essential evidence for productive self-government.

Somehow I don't think the Post has much concern about the
Bassett campaign, one way or the other, but they have reportedly
contacted him seperately and I had thought they were going to do
a special interview with him about his campaign. I could be
wrong, of course, or they may have changed their plans.

Personally, I believe that the demonstration by Operation Right
To Know (or ORTK) in front of the Washington Post made the genre
look more foolish and fringe oriented. If we are hoping to
obtain credibility in the eyes of science, we don't need events
such as that to make us look like fools. This effort was
compared to the Peace Marches of the 60's, but that's stretching
it quite a bit IMO.

Letters to the Editor make sense, and can make the paper know of
one interests and concerns. If enough people write about a
particular subject, they'll eventually begin to follow the story
because they want to attract readers. But it is extremely rare
for a major investigation to be launched by a newspaper, with
most reporters given daily assignments to work on. A well
documented and organized report from an official source would
certainly get the attention of the Post's editors (even if they
didn't agree with it), but I get the impression that there's a
call here for the newspaper to perform the research. I guess I'd
make that request of a reporter who is interested in the
subject, and not attack the Editors.


Steve

PS- Where did "a conveyor of essential evidence for productive
self-government" come from?







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   Jul > Jul 16

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:58:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:45:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:42:47 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:05:23 EDT
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

<snip>

 >Try tape 3 of cassettes from Visual Education Associates UFO
 >programs.

Thanks very much. I hope that these, what, 25 year old tapes are
still around. I was hoping that you might actually offer the
quotes in context, yourself, so that other Listers could make
their own judgement. Instead, you have referred to Authority -
yourself. Oh, well.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Jul > Jul 16

                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:06:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:52:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:45:32 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>From: Larry Bryant <evelarr@msn.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:54:04 -0400
 >>Subject: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 ><snip>

 >Larry Bryant commenting about the Stephen Bassett Congressional
 >bid, wrote:

 >>Does the Post view his campaign as a threat to its lame defense
 >>of inaction (or, worse, to its alleged complicity in the
 >>government's putdown of UFO-related activism)? If so, then your
 >>publisher and executive editor not only have lost another
 >>opportunity to help set the record straight; they've also
 >>undermined the reading public's confidence in the Fourth
 >>Estate's ability to function as a watchdog medium and as a
 >>conveyor of essential evidence for productive self-government.

 >Somehow I don't think the Post has much concern about the
 >Bassett campaign, one way or the other, but they have reportedly
 >contacted him seperately and I had thought they were going to do
 >a special interview with him about his campaign. I could be
 >wrong, of course, or they may have changed their plans.

 >Personally, I believe that the demonstration by Operation Right
 >To Know (or ORTK) in front of the Washington Post made the genre
 >look more foolish and fringe oriented. If we are hoping to
 >obtain credibility in the eyes of science, we don't need events
 >such as that to make us look like fools. This effort was
 >compared to the Peace Marches of the 60's, but that's stretching
 >it quite a bit IMO.

I would suggest that what makes ufology "fringe-like" is not
picketing, but the refusal of both mainstream science and media
to acknowledge the importance of the field.

 >Letters to the Editor make sense, and can make the paper know of
 >one interests and concerns. If enough people write about a
 >particular subject, they'll eventually begin to follow the story
 >because they want to attract readers. But it is extremely rare
 >for a major investigation to be launched by a newspaper, with
 >most reporters given daily assignments to work on. A well
 >documented and organized report from an official source would
 >certainly get the attention of the Post's editors (even if they
 >didn't agree with it), but I get the impression that there's a
 >call here for the newspaper to perform the research. I guess I'd
 >make that request of a reporter who is interested in the
 >subject, and not attack the Editors.


Interviewing Stephen Bassett hardly requires a "major
investigation".


Eleanor White







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   Jul > Jul 16

                           Re: Mantell - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:41:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:54:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Deardorff


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:59:38 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:42:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

 ><snip>

 >>What I found very unconvincing is that ATIC/Menzel's Skyhook
 >>balloon would have been moving in a S-W direction, contrary to
 >>the ususal winds in this region and especially the jetstream, at
 >>higher altitudes - which normally blows to the E. Never-the-
 >>less, Menzel makes the following incredible and very
 >>unscientific declaration:

 ><snip>

 >Dear Nick Bill-Ask-Us, (can't spell Greek names), List and EBK;

 >There is one element in this research that is being left out.
 >When the winds are blowing hard up there in the heavyside, a
 >balloon may change it's shape from teardrop to a more flattened
 >shape. It's made to be elastic. Blowing hard in the upper
 >atmosphere, the teardrop shape may become more like a rounded,
 >horizontal shape. This is what Mantell _may_ have seen.

 >Just a thought.

I think we have to dispense with Jim's thought here. A balloon
floating along in the stratosphere is just moving along with the
wind, even if the wind is 150 mph. As far as the balloon is
concerned, it's calm out; no air is rushing around it to try to
alter its shape. (Clear-air turbulence is relatively rare up
there.)


Jim Deardorff








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   Jul > Jul 16

                    UFO Over Gobernador Ugarte Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:04:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:57:40 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Gobernador Ugarte Argentina


SOURCE: Diario La Ma=F1ana
DATE: July 16, 2002

TOWNSFOLK CLAIM HAIVNG SEEN UFO IN GOBERNADOR UGARTE
**There was an intense light over an abandoned house**

Residents of the 25 de Mayo rural area and police personnel from
the Gobernador Ugarte barracks of said district claim having
seen a powerful white light suspended in space for several
minutes before taking off swiftly toward the West.

Three townspeople and three members of the Gobernador Ugartte
police force witnessed something strange over a farmhouse--
something that irradiated a very powerful white light from its
lower section, making it difficult to see what was above the
light. This fact has been made known to authorities of the
Mercedes Police Department, who for the moment did not define
the cause, although the eyewitness reports of local residents
corroborates the sighting of a powerful light suspended over an
abandoned house.

This "strange light" was seen by Jose Benavides and his wife
Rosa Gutierrez, as well as by Manuel Gonzalez, who decided to
  report the event to the police barracks. It was thus that only
a few minutes later the department's squad car, driven by senior
officer Rafael Aragones and assisted by two other officers
visited the field and attested to the truth of the call, since
the strange light was indeed there.

The field where the light was seen is located some 7 km away
from the city center of the locality in 25 de Mayo.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales (IHU)
Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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   Jul > Jul 16

              Flying Entity in Adelia Maria Cordoba, Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:41:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:59:22 -0400
Subject: Flying Entity in Adelia Maria Cordoba, Argentina


SOURCE: Investigation by the C.O.R. Group (Rio Cuarto, Argentina)
DATE: July 14, 2002

FLYING ENTITY IN ADELIA MARIA, CORDOBA
**The C.O.R. Investigates**

by Francisco Dom=EDnguez (C.O.R. Vice-Director)

Natalia Urista, Lucio Fern=E1ndez y Mario Bracamonte (researchers)
This Sunday, July 14, 2002, the C.O.R's reseach committee
traveled to Adela Maria, 90 km from Rio Cuarto, with a
population of 7000 and located amid a highly agricultural and
livestock region. At this locality, whose residents have divided
into skeptics and believers in ufological matters, the
phenomenon has intensified and ranges from the death and
mutilation of cattle to sightings of luminous objects of
considerable size and  the appearance of a flying entity over a
cereal plant.

The C.O.R. Committee worked on this last event in particular,
interviewing Pedro and Estela Moine, who on Wednesday, July 3rd,
decided to go to the business district of the town, which is
known as Barrio Norte to all residents of the locality, and
crossed the old railroad yard (maneuvering yard) through
pedestrian pathways that link both sectors of Adelia Maria.
  These are trails through low pasture areas and the rails run
between silos, old railroad depots and abandoned wreckage. The
aforementioned area is conveniently lit in its public and
private areas. The time was nearly 21:00 hours when the couple
moved through the premises from north to southeast, suddenly
becoming aware of a "strange and incomprehensible conversation
between many voices."  Startled by this, they stopped walking.
They moved a few meters more and then heard the "voices" again,
which now sounded like "strange "O" sounds".

Pedro looked toward the silos and was able to see "something" he
qualified as a "humanoid" but lacking upper and lower
extremities. At least this is what he said during the interview.
Despite the pleas of his wife Estela, Pedro ran several emters
toward an inner alley in the silo plant, being able to make out-
- some 45 meters to the west and in profile--the "entity", which
acting surprised, avoided the encounter and moved again to the
north. However, what filled the witnesses with wonderment was
that the creature did so "as though flying or floating" without
touching the facilities it passed. Filled with excitement, Pedro
and Estela ran after it. It was thus that the man managed to see
that the "entity" appeared to be "hidden" behind the control
room of the truck scale. [Pedro] ran toward it and was again
startled to see the apparition rising as a plane taking off,
flying at an altitude of 5 meters and disappearing behind a
large metal shed. Bewildered, both witnesses called out, but
were unable to see anything else.

They decided to return home (a distance of some 250 meters to
the north) to find their bicycles and complete the interrupted
journey. It took them 15 minutes to go for the bikes and return
to the site, where they were astounded to find that the lighting
levels had returned to their normal levels, while everything had
been darkened during the event, a fact which filled them with
uncertainty and unanswered questions.

The apparition was described by Pedro Moine as "a thing with
human shape" (he used the term "christian", very common among
the unschooled to describe something with human shape). It had
some sort of light, although he could not say if reflected or
self-generated, although he tends to believe the latter, since
it was a nebulous whitish light which kept him from making out
details, thus accounting for the lack of arms and legs. The
entire mass of the apparition appeared to be a body covered from
head to toe in some sort of mantle, which he described as though
"it wore a hat, but covered with some kind of long raincoat"
reaching down to what he took to be its feet.

He added that the "conversational sounds" repeated themselves in
three separate occasions at various intensities. "They were like
conversations in a strange language," he said.

On the following day, Estela decided to call FM del Sol, but the
radio station did not give signs of being very interested in the
event. She therefore resolved to phone FM Radio Adelia Maria,
whose owner/director reported to the Moine household after
hearing the first tale. He made a recording that was
subsequently transmitted over the microphones.

The Rio Cuarto "Puntal" newspaper echoed the news and published
it. Subsequently Channel 13 of Rio Cuarto did the same and sent
a camera crew and reporter to make an audiovisual  report of
what happened to the Moines. And today, the C.O.R. research team
made a detailed oral, photographic and video survey of the area,
tasks which lasted until the late hours of Sunday.

Mario Luis Bracamonte -- =C1rea Difusi=F3n
C.O.R.
ovnicor@hotmail.com

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales (IHU)
Special thanks to Mario Luis Bracamonte








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   Jul > Jul 16

                      Woman Sees "Green Dwarf" & Faints

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:17:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:01:27 -0400
Subject: Woman Sees "Green Dwarf" & Faints



SOURCE: "El Diario" de La Pampa - Argentina
DATE: 16  July  2002

Woman Sees Green Dwarf And Faints


A young woman fainted yesterday from nervous shock after having
an alleged close encounter with "some sort of green dwarf" that
appeared before her on 23:30 hours two nights ago as she walked-
-enveloped in darkness--along Misioneros Salesianos street only
meters away from Raul B. Diaz St. in the Villa Elisa
neighborhood. This information was provided to El Diario by
police sources in the Second District, stating in regardt to the
incident that "the protagonist's identity, and that of the other
three women who attended her until the ambulance arrived, is not
in our hands. We do know that at 11: 30 at night a request for
help was received from the corner of Raul B. Diaz and Salesianos
and a squad car headed toward that location."

According to the source, it was learned that "when personnel
reached [the scene], the women were not there, in any event, the
duty officer established that one of these persons saw some kind
of green dwarf that looked at her pointedly, and she fainted."

Subsequently, a reporter for this paper was able to find out,
from medical sources, that the woman was treated by personnel
from an EMS ambulance under the direction of Dr. Brum, who
"revived the protagonist and helped her out of her state of
nervous shock. She was later sent home and the ambulance
returned to the hospital where the doctor and paramedics were on
duty."

===============================

Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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   Jul > Jul 17

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:06:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Connors


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:58:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:42:47 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:05:23 EDT
 >>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

 ><snip>

 >>Try tape 3 of cassettes from Visual Education Associates UFO
 >>programs.

 >Thanks very much. I hope that these, what, 25 year old tapes are
 >still around. I was hoping that you might actually offer the
 >quotes in context, yourself, so that other Listers could make
 >their own judgement. Instead, you have referred to Authority -
 >yourself. Oh, well.


Bob,

You keep operating in some kind of mental nuclear winter or
something. No wonder you keep hoping for "Clear Skies." Robert
Shaeffer already said the direct quotes were his and I gave
direct quotes from his Pelicanistic spittle on wasted tape. You
wanted the source and I gave you the source. Send me $25 and
I'll send you copies of the tapes...Oh, you won't...Pelicanist's
are to cheap to pay for documentation...they just like to keep
dropping their load on the docks in a lame attempt to mark their
percieved territory. Sorry, I forgot.

As to the other "Listers" making up their own minds, they
already have. Connors... 1. Shaeffer, Klass and Young... 0.

I liked your "25 year old tapes" line. Shaeffer and you
Pelicanists are still waffling around singing the same tune
since then. Same song. Second Verse. The rest of the world
passes by the Pelicanist's while you fiddle the same tune over
and over. Kinda pathetic.

This thread is over, Bob. You've had your play time and I must
be off doing really important things. Sorry, but you and your
kind are not worth my valuable time. Updates is suppose to be a
List for those whose maintain an open mind. Why it has become
the Mecca of Skeptibunkers and Pelicanists is beyond me, but
because it has, it has become a waste of my time and efforts to
give good information and insight.


Thumb in your eye and guess where else? <G>

Wendy Connors







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                           Trindade Isle Witnesses

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:24:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:30:40 -0400
Subject: Trindade Isle Witnesses


This is quoted from O Jornal (Rio de Janeiro), Feb. 21, 1958
[Translation and other important details on the case provided to
me by Dr. Olavo Fontes in a letter dated March 15, 1958]:


"The sighting...scared all who sighted it. There was even an
officer who was so terrorized that [he] was found trembling and
mumbling meaningless words--entirely out of his mind. The saucer
was seen simultaneously by almost everybody and caused a
tremendous running and confusion aboard--everybody trying to see
the strange object."

[Sounds like dozens of witnesses to me since other sources
provide data about how many were on board. - R.H.]

Continuing from O Jornal:


"Captain of Sea-and-War Saldanha da Gama reported the matter to
Navy Headquarters, at Rio, and a careful investigation was made
on the film, to prevent any doubt regarding its authenticity. It
is proved--and there are official documents to testify it [note
well - R.H.]--that the photos are genuine and that the object
appearing in them was the same which was sighted over the
island. There is no possibility of falsification."


Fontes later wrote a summary of the case, which included the
information that a UFO of identical description (flattened
sphere with flange) had been observed from the island and even
photographed a few days before the famous shipboard photos were
taken. The Navy obtained the photo for comparison, and it showed
the same shape. Named eye-witnesses of the Saturn-like UFO are
included, among them a physician and a Navy petty officer. The
first person on-board the ship to sight the UFO was Amilar
Vieira Filho, then Jose Teobaldo Viegas (a retired Air Force
captain), who alerted Baruana. A paragraph of witness
description is quoted from each. Continuing with the Fontes
report:


"The object was sighted by nearly everyone on deck; about 100 of
the crew later confirmed that they had seen it."

After the pictures were publicly released by the President of
Brazil (the Navy had intended to keep them secret), other
witnesses gave public statements. Among them Com. Paulo Moreira
da Silva of the Navy Hydrography and Navigation Service who saw
the UFO and confirmed the authenticity of the photos.

Another translation found in my files is from O Diario de Sao
Paulo, Feb. 21, 1958, confirming the "more than 100" witnesses
on deck.

To those who previously made jibes about my "moral certainty"
that witness names and statements were on record, I say
Pthfffffft! I was, after all, a contemporary investigator of the
case who pressed for complete documentation in a thorough-going
investigation, something the armchair Pelicanists never bother
doing. They prefer to pick and snipe and quibble many years
after the fact and demand more evidence. There is a lot more in
my file on the case, but that's enough for now. Q.E.D.

  - Dick








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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:29:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:32:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:06:46 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >I would suggest that what makes ufology "fringe-like" is not
 >picketing, but the refusal of both mainstream science and media
 >to acknowledge the importance of the field.

That's not exactly what I said, but okay. . . .

I would counter it's how we are viewed by others that is
important in lending credibility to the "cause", not what WE
believe ourselves to represent.

 >>Letters to the Editor make sense, and can make the paper know of
 >>one interests and concerns. If enough people write about a
 >>particular subject, they'll eventually begin to follow the story
 >>because they want to attract readers. But it is extremely rare
 >>for a major investigation to be launched by a newspaper, with
 >>most reporters given daily assignments to work on. A well
 >>documented and organized report from an official source would
 >>certainly get the attention of the Post's editors (even if they
 >>didn't agree with it), but I get the impression that there's a
 >>call here for the newspaper to perform the research. I guess I'd
 >>make that request of a reporter who is interested in the
 >>subject, and not attack the Editors.

 >Interviewing Stephen Bassett hardly requires a "major
 >investigation".

Bassett had indicated that the Washington Post has already
contacted him about an interview, but I don't know if it has
taken place. My comment related to the implication that the
Washington Post should fully investigate the UFO phenomenon and
coverup of information, which IMO wouldn't happen unless there
is a major event that triggers it.


Steve








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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:29:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:44:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:06:46 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >I would suggest that what makes ufology "fringe-like" is not
 >picketing, but the refusal of both mainstream science and media
 >to acknowledge the importance of the field.

That's not exactly what I said, but okay. . . .

I would counter it's how we are viewed by others that is
important in lending credibility to the "cause", not what WE
believe ourselves to represent.

 >>Letters to the Editor make sense, and can make the paper know of
 >>one interests and concerns. If enough people write about a
 >>particular subject, they'll eventually begin to follow the story
 >>because they want to attract readers. But it is extremely rare
 >>for a major investigation to be launched by a newspaper, with
 >>most reporters given daily assignments to work on. A well
 >>documented and organized report from an official source would
 >>certainly get the attention of the Post's editors (even if they
 >>didn't agree with it), but I get the impression that there's a
 >>call here for the newspaper to perform the research. I guess I'd
 >>make that request of a reporter who is interested in the
 >>subject, and not attack the Editors.

 >Interviewing Stephen Bassett hardly requires a "major
 >investigation".

Bassett had indicated that the Washington Post has already
contacted him about an interview, but I don't know if it has
taken place.  My comment related to the implication that the
Washington Post should fully investigate the UFO phenomenon and
coverup of information, which IMO wouldn't happen unless there
is a major event that triggers it.


Steve

]






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                        Re: Apropo Translators - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:35:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:45:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Apropo Translators - Hall


Thanks to all of you who have responded to my request for
translators. I have accepted a comprehensive offer from a
European group that has a team of translators doing exactly this
sort of work, so it is a perfect fit.

  - Dick








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                            Re: Mantell - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:55:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:49:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Mantell - Ledger


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:55:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Mantell

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:59:38 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Mantell

<snip>

Hi Nick, Jim and Jim,

I'm not trying to make a case for a "real" UFO in the Mantell
case because years ago I spent a great deal of time shooting
this one down. But someone-I believe Nick- makes a good point
about these Skyhook balloons. Thousands were launched. How come
they weren't more well known within the USAF at least. Strange
Ruppelt wasn't aware of them.

Best,

Don








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                    Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:53:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:03:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Maccabee


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:39:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:20:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III


 >>>I have a proposal to begin, in part, the referee process. I
 >>>believe that this List contains the proper credentials to engage
 >>>in such an activity. Opinions range from the skeptical of Young
 >>>Bob and Bruce Hutchinson to those at the other end such as John
 >>>Velez.

<snip>

 >>>To get this ball rolling, I'll even propose the first of these
 >>>types of articles. We have been debating the Mantell case
 >>>recently. The posts run the gamut, from Jerry Clark's and my
 >>>opinion that it was a balloon, to John Velez's suggestion that
 >>>he'll believe the witnesses and the family rather than the Air
 >>>Force and the researchers.

<snip>

 >>>It seems to me that there are several others who could do the
 >>>same. John Velez has the dust bunny experiment which would lend
 >>>itself to this sort of activity. Bruce Maccabee might want to
 >>>put together something on Kenneth Arnold or Gulf Breeze. Sean
 >>>Jones had volunteered to write up one of his cases for the
 >>>review.

This is a nice idea but it means work. Anyone who is going to
make a positive contribution to a case would have to study it
carefully. In some situations the amount of information
available is limited or 'finite' where is in other cases it
might seem "infinite." The Mantell case, one assumes, has
"finite" or limited information. Most of what can be known about
the case already is known. However, there still might be old
records that have not been researched or analyzed. So, who is
going to do that work?

Perhaps the modus operandi should be as in the legal system. One
person (or a small group) intentionally acts as the advocate(s)
for a case and presents all the available information. Then the
others analyze and comment. This, of course, requires a
considerable time input by all.

Kevin mentioned two cases associated with my name: Arnold and
Gulf Breeze. The Arnold sighting lasted a couple of minutes and
has resulted in thousands of words and hours of discussion and
analysis on this list.... leading to the conclusion that what
Arnold saw was either unexplained (and extraterrestrial?) or
else pelicans (or geese, or meteors, or atmospheric phenomena or
mirage, or motes in the eye or... you name it!). (see a
monumental discussion of Arnold at:

http://brumac.8k.com

scroll down page and look for the first sighting)

How does one conclude the Arnold case after all this discussion?
Take a vote? Can a concensus be reached? Can't we just all get
along? But if so, what does that prove? A bunch of "rational
believers" arrived at a conclusion and outvoted the "rational
skeptics" ? And then what happens? We turn it over to a skeptics
group (e.g. CSICOPers) and challenge them to provide an
explanation under the tacit (if not stated) assumption that they
won';t be able to find an explanation because in our discussion
we ruled out all explanations?

Nobody "out there" is really going to care until this breaks
into the main stream.

Re: discussing Gulf Breeze on this List as 'a case' for vetting.
Whereas the complete set of information on what Arnold saw is
based on a 2.5 (about) minute sighting, the information on Gulf
Breeze is not just a few minutes, not just a few hours, not even
just a few days or a few weeks, but information gained over
_months_ and , yes, _years_ (including stuff that was never
published anywhere).

I have presented one case that involved Ed and other witnesses
and several photos. (Jan 8, 1990; "Not Just Another Evening
Stroll"). You can read about it on my web site.

The totality of information is limited - it was sort of an
isolated event (within a much larger series of events starting
in Nov. 1987 and ending in the middle 90's) involving multiple
witnesses and photos and, as such, is worthy of study. But to
propose 'The Gulf Breeze Case' as did Kevin, is to propose
literally hours of work leading to days, weeks, months of
discussion on various aspects of what happened in 1987 and 1988
(Ed's sightings and those of over a hundred other witnesses).
Then one could switch to the Bubba sightings (Nov. 1990 through
July 1992), witnessed and videotaped and photographed up the
wazoo, again leading to a monumental amount of work to 'solve'
the sightings (if that is possible). Again, some of this is at
my web site.

Bottom line: if you expect to get anywhere on a particular case
and arrive at an agreed-upon answer better pick and choose
wisely... and participants in a discussion of same should
prepare to spend time understanding what is going on. (Consider
the ongoing Rendlesham case, for example, which seems to produce
new information every year. How many thousands of words have
been written on that case over the years... and where are we on
it? Is it proven one way or the other? Some think yes, I guess,
and some think not.)








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/16/02

From: Steven Aftergood<saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:13:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:05:36 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/16/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 63
July 16, 2002


**      REPORT ON USA PATRIOT ABUSE CLAIMS
**      HOMELAND SECURITY STRATEGY
**      JUDGE REBUKES OFFICIALS IN ENERGY TASK FORCE CASE
**      USS LIBERTY, AGAIN
**      LEAKS, AND MORE LEAKS


REPORT ON USA PATRIOT ABUSE CLAIMS

The Justice Department received 458 complaints alleging civil
liberties or civil rights violations committed by Justice
Department employees since the enactment of the USA PATRIOT Act,
according to the first semi-annual report to Congress on the
subject from the Department's Inspector General.  The report was
transmitted to Congress yesterday.

The complaints, filed between October 26, 2001 and June 15,
2002, included allegations of excessive force, illegal
detention, detention without access to an attorney, and
detention under adverse conditions.

The Justice Office of Inspector General opened nine
investigations of allegations of Patriot Act-related civil
rights and civil liberties abuses, according to the new report.

Furthermore, a systemic evaluation of the treatment of post-
September 11 detainees is underway, and a public report is
anticipated by October of this year, the 18 page report said.

A copy of the Inspector General's "Report to Congress on
Implementation of Section 1001 of the USA PATRIOT Act," dated
July 15, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/patriot071502.pdf

The letter of transmittal from Inspector General Glenn A. Fine
is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/patriot071502_cov.pdf


HOMELAND SECURITY STRATEGY

The White House today released its "National Strategy for
Homeland Security":

http://www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/book/index.html

The many-faceted strategy recommends restricting public
disclosure of certain "critical infrastructure information":

"Homeland security officials need quick, complete access to
information relevant to the protection of physical and cyber
critical infrastructure.  We must meet this need by narrowly
limiting public disclosure of such information in order to
facilitate its voluntary submission without compromising the
principles of openness that ensure government accountability."
(p. 48)


JUDGE REBUKES OFFICIALS IN ENERGY TASK FORCE CASE

A federal judge last week chastised Bush Administration
officials for their unwarranted attempt at "aggrandizement of
Executive power."  The unusually harsh rebuke was published in
the latest ruling in a lawsuit brought by the Sierra Club and
Judicial Watch seeking disclosure of information concerning the
Vice President's Energy Task Force.

Administration officials "have repeatedly invoked an incorrect
constitutional standard in this case, a standard that would
increase Executive power at the expense of the other branches of
government," wrote U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan in his
July 11 decision. (pp. 55-6)

The government's extreme position, Judge Sullivan said, would
render the Freedom of Information Act and other open government
laws unconstitutional.

"Clearly, this is not the law.  Such a ruling would eviscerate
the understanding of checks and balances between the three
branches of government on which our constitutional order
depends." (p. 64)

The decision is available here:

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/01-1530.pdf


USS LIBERTY, AGAIN

The 1967 Israeli attack on the American spy ship U.S.S. Liberty,
which resulted in the deaths of 34 American sailors, remains a
source of grief as well as controversy, with some critics
claiming that the Israeli attack could only have been
deliberate.

That claim is systematically rebutted by A. Jay Cristol in his
new book "The Liberty Incident."  The book, which relies on
primary sources and interviews with the principals to a greater
extent than any previous work on the topic, concludes that the
attack was "a tragic accident."

See "Book Sees Answers to '67 Israeli Attack on U.S. Spy Ship,"
by Elinor J. Brecher in the July 15 Miami Herald:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/3663371.htm

The publisher's notice is here:

http://www.brasseysinc.com/Books/157488414X.htm

Critics, such as Liberty survivor LCDR James Ennes, are not
convinced. Cristol's research is "a flawed work, packed with
evasions and misleading statements," Ennes wrote recently.
  "Cristol seems to accept at face value all the arguments that
support his case, while he nitpicks, dismisses and ignores
entirely the eyewitness reports of survivors and other
supporting evidence."

See "The U.S.S. Liberty: Still Covered Up After 35 Years" by
LCDR Ennes here:

http://ussliberty.org/wrmea602.txt


LEAKS, AND MORE LEAKS

In an unusually aggressive government action, State Department
security personnel physically detained National Review reporter
Joel Mowbray last Friday while they attempted to determine if he
was in possession of a classified cable that he had cited at a
Department press briefing.

"The cable was classified," acknowledged National Review editor
Rich Lowry, "but contained nothing sensitive to national
security, just a politically embarrassing policy
recommendation."  See Lowry's July 15 letter of protest to the
State Department here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/document/document071502.asp

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher defended the move.

"The fact is that anybody in this building, whether you're me or
a reporter or some other visitor, who has a classified cable is
not allowed to leave the building with it except under
appropriate security procedures, and it's our guards'
responsibility to make sure that people don't do that," Mr.
Boucher said.

Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld renewed his warning
leaks of classified information, which "we continue to see on a
daily basis," are damaging national security.

See "Rumsfeld Says Leaks to Media Aid Al Qaeda," by Esther
Schrader in the July 16 Los Angeles Times:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-na-leaks16jul16005042.story


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:07:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:08:44 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Speiser


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:08:12 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:39:30 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

<snip>

 >Hello Kevin, All,

 >>But aren't you at the alleged other end from Bob?

 >Re: Me and Bob and opposite ends of the spectrum.

 >Granted that both Bob and myself can be a bit headstrong about
 >our positions from time to time, but that's true of just about
 >everyone on the List. I don't think that either one of us
 >represents an 'extreme' polar opposite of anything.

 >I have been bantering back and forth with Bob for years now. We
 >both know each other's views and although we may 'go at it' over
 >one issue or another, we have always maintained _respect_ for
 >each other. Something that I cannot say for very many others on
 >the List, although there are a 'few.'

 >In fact, one of the things I have always liked about Bob is that
 >regardless of who agrees with it or not, likes it or not, he's
 >never afraid to speak his mind or to ask the 'hard' questions. I
 >am the same way. We may stand on opposite sides of the fence...
 >but that's not the same as standing in 'polar opposite
 >positions' to one another.


Though they seem at opposite poles, fanatics of all kinds are
actually crowded together at one end. It is the fanatic and the
moderate who are poles apart and never meet.

          --Eric Hoffer


==JJS==







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                         Setting The Record Straight

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:46:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:19:05 -0400
Subject: Setting The Record Straight


Hello All,

I'm not going to mention names. The individual that this post is
meant for _will_ read it. I need to set the record straight on
some complete fabrications that this person has been circulating
about me behind my back. If anybody has been told any of this
confabulated crap about me by this individual I would appreciate
a contact at my private e-mail address.

The following is a series of complete fabrications that this
person has told to at least one family member (who, in addition
to this individual, is also sending me _unsolicited_ messages to
my home,) and God only knows how many other people.

I've had it. I have reached my limit with this person and this
very personal harassment and continued violation of my privacy
at home, stops here and now.

I am dealing with this in public because I have received no
compliance whatsoever from this person to my demand for his
respect of my privacy.

Never, in the years I have been a member of this List, have I
ever encountered such a deeply disturbed and manipulative
individual. And believe me, I've been flamed and spammed by a
few Pros. along the way. This person makes them look like rank
amateurs.

The older List members who know me, know that I have never shied
away from open debate on anything. I have always been prepared
to deal with anything that comes up on the List - on the List.

Not at home.

Here's a sampling of some of the insidious fabrications that
this person is spreading about me (assigning to me) to others.
If you've heard any of these libelous statements that are
apparently meant to hurt me in some way, _please_ let me know.

1. "At first, you helped him. But later, when it was becoming
evident that he was not going to blindly follow you on
everything, vis a vis your caveat to him to "Stay away from
Errol and Rense, they are MY venues and I don't want you
spoiling it for me!"

2. "You tried to disparage him with EBK, but in the end, you
lost that battle."

Note: Fortunately, EBK _knows me_ {knows better} and he has
copies of almost all of the private (and unsolicited) e-mails
that this person has been cluttering my private e-mail box with
for almost three years! Non-stop. :)

3. "But again, unfortunately, you will be remembered for the
damage you've done, not by the merits you've worked so hard to
achieve."

A well-known researcher once said to me (after I refused to sign
a release for videotaped material of me) that he would insure
that I would be "written out of UFO history" for not granting
permission to use the material. I'll tell this person the same
thing I told him:

-It has never been my intention to "write myself in"!

(Unlike some others who work full time at it.)

Self-aggrandizement has never been the reason for my involvement
in ufology. I didn't 'volunteer', I was _drafted_!

Note to everyone:

If Errol (who introduced me as "the sometimes contentious John
Velez" on my last appearance on SDI,) or anyone else believes
any of the crap that is being spread around about me, there's
not much I can do about what others choose to believe about me.
I would hope that those who know me well will not give it any
credence. However, I would appreciate some honesty and that
these people tell me to my face what they think. And not do it
by sly innuendo or behind my back.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not here to 'win
any popularity contests' or to 'promote' myself. The only thing
I have done, since day one, is to try my best to make meaningful
contributions when and where I could. To make myself available
to any research people who may have wanted to pose questions or
to investigate my reports. Nothing else.

It's sad when one sick individual drags the level of the
interaction down to a place where out of pure self-defence,
posts such as this one are necessary.

I have never backed down from anything or anybody. I'm not going
to start now at age 53. This nonsense stops here and now.


Posted with regrets for taking up the valuable time of the List
readers.

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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   Jul > Jul 17

                   SETI Expects ET Contact Within 25 Years

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:08:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:21:24 -0400
Subject: SETI Expects ET Contact Within 25 Years


SETI Expects ET Contact Within 25 Years
Multi-National Manned Mission to Mars

--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Web Log July 17, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
SETI EXPECTS ET CONTACT WITHIN 25 YEARS
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: First Contact?
http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewSETIResponseThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - ET scientist Seth Shostak, senior
astronomer for the SETI Institute, says he's convinced that
there is alien life out there, and high-tech advances have
dramatically increased the chances of finding it within the next
25 years.

"I doubt they'll be able - or want - to communicate with us,"
Shostak told Reuters. "What we are more likely to hear will be
so far beyond our own level that it might not be biological
anymore but some artificial form of life."

Earlier this year, the SETI@Home project set personal computing
milestone by aggregating 1 million years of CPU processing time.
As reported by this blog, the SETI team is also pondering what
to say at first contact.

More recently, writing for Space.com, Shostak said that although
about half the US population believes in alien visitation, it
isn't likely that aliens are already among us.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

16-Jul-02
SETI: We'll Find 'Alien' by 2027
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53887,00.html

(Reuters) CANBERRA - Scientists searching the stars for aliens
are convinced an E.T. is out there - it's just that they
haven't had the know-how to detect such a being. But now
technological advances have opened the way for scientists to
check millions of previously unknown star systems, dramatically
increasing the chances of finding intelligent life in outer
space in the next 25 years, the world's largest private
extraterrestrial agency believes.

05-Jun-02
Search for ET Crunches 1 Mega-Year of CPU Time
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0043.htm

(The Electric Warrior) - ET scientists who set a personal
computing milestone are also pondering what to say at first
contact.

The project is the brain child of the SETI Institute, a non-
profit group based in California's Silicon Valley. They're
looking for ET, and they're doing it by searching for signs of
intelligence gathered by commercial radio telescopes.

SETI's senior scientist Seth Shostak expects ET to be a good
conversationalist. "We're looking for intelligent life.
Sophisticated beings that can hold up their side of the
conversation."

He's probably right. Both sides need to think up something
better than "Take me to your leader."

--------------------------------------------------
MULTI-NATIONAL MANNED MISSION TO MARS
martian enigmas

photo: Mars (Hubble Space Telescope)
http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/MarsHST.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - Russia has proposed an ambitious plan
to send an international crew of six astronauts to Mars, by the
year 2015. "It must be an international project," said the head
of Russia's Mars effort. "No one country could cope alone with
this task."

The space officials hope to work in cooperation with their
international counterparts at NASA and the European Space Agency
on a historic interplanetary mission to put humans on the
surface of Mars, and bring them safely back home.

Should we do it? Mac Tonnies thinks so. "A human presence on
Mars in the early 21st century is crucial if we want to become a
space faring species," writes the author of The Cydonian
Imperative. Tonnies says a manned mission would facilitate a
robust search for Martian life, both past and present, plus
afford the opportunity for an on-site examination of enigmas at
Cydonia, like the Face on Mars.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

12-Jul-02
Russians Urge International Manned Mars Mission
http://mactonnies.com/imperative32.html

(The Cydonian Imperative) - So should we take the Russians up on
their offer? The answer is yes. A partnership with Russia, whose
experience with space physiology is unmatched by the United
States is precisely what a crewed mission to Mars requires. A
trip to Mars is not wishful science-fantasy; it's completely
doable.

05-Jul-02
Russia Proposes Sending Team to Mars
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=624&e=1&cid=624&u=/ap/20020
705/ap_on_sc/russia_exploring_mars_4

(Associated Press) MOSCOW - Russian space officials proposed an
ambitious project on Friday to send a six-person team to Mars by
the year 2015, a trip that would mark a milestone in space
travel and international space cooperation...Russian space
officials said they are receiving encouraging signs of interest
from NASA and European counterparts.

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
July 17, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the
content of Web links. Content reproduced here is
for informational purposes only. All copyrights
Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 17

                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:00:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:29:38 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post


 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:06:46 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 ><snip>

 >>I would suggest that what makes ufology "fringe-like" is not
 >>picketing, but the refusal of both mainstream science and media
 >>to acknowledge the importance of the field.

 >That's not exactly what I said, but okay. . . .

 >I would counter it's how we are viewed by others that is
 >important in lending credibility to the "cause", not what WE
 >believe ourselves to represent.

Picketing works. People picketing for other causes are not seen
as discrediting themselves because they take to the streets with
signs. Picketing is value-neutral. The only problem with
picketing is that in the field of UFOlogy and other important
causes which are ignored by the powers that be, is that it isn't
done nearly enough.

The main problem is the suppression of UFO issues and the
consistent ending of the few UFO items with something to
discredit, such as a crack about "little green men", or a
condescending tone and mannerisms, or the trusty old skeptic's
statement that UFOs can't be spacecraft because you can't travel
faster than light (even though French scientist Alain Aspect
showed that at least one signal type can.)

<snip>

 >>Interviewing Stephen Bassett hardly requires a "major
 >>investigation".

 >Bassett had indicated that the Washington Post has already
 >contacted him about an interview, but I don't know if it has
 >taken place. My comment related to the implication that the
 >Washington Post should fully investigate the UFO phenomenon and
 >coverup of information, which IMO wouldn't happen unless there
 >is a major event that triggers it.

That's for sure. There are some papers like the San Jose Mercury
News which do investigative reporting projects, though.


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 17

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 29

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:03:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:24:43 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 29


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 29
July 16, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


MUTILATIONS SPREAD TO
WESTERN ARGENTINA

       Despite the statement by Argentinian health agencies
that the recent cattle mutilations were due to "natural
causes," the wave of mutilations continued unabated last
week, with new cases in the western provinces of
Argentina.
       "Camilo Lisiardo habitually tours his local fields
in order to observe the state of his cattle.  On (Friday)
June 28 (2002), he noticed a dead calf in a rather remote
section of the field," located in Colonia Tres Arboles,
10 kilometers (6 miles) southeast of Rufino, in Santa Fe
province.
       On Tuesday, July 2, 2002, three investigators--Juan
Jose Mecchi, Norberto Mollo and Leonardo Mollo--from
Investigadores del Fenomeno OVNI de Rufino (IFOR) "went
with Lisiardo to the spot.  On site they found the
carcass of a small calf lying on its left side with the
head pointed toward the southeast.  They immediately
became aware of a clean cut (incision) running from its
nose to the throat.  The lower maxillary (jawbone) and a
portion of the upper maxillary were completely clean
(devoid of flesh), as though the animal had been dead for
several months."
       "It was also noticed that the right eye was missing
and the orbital cavity was completely empty.  Its belly,
around the navel, featured a circle 4 centimeters (1.75
inches) in diameter.  Its hindquarters showed signs on
predation, but Lisiardo, who had seen the animal a day
earlier (July 1) had detected a well-delineated circle in
the anal region with the extraction of said organ."
       "IFOR returned to the site on Wednesday (July 3,
2002) with veterinarian Hernando Brandino, who made a
full evaluation of the animal, stating that the
hindquarters of the animal had been predated by carrion
eaters.  While he did not altogether dismiss predator
action, he leaned towards evidence that the incision
could be due to the action of a sharp instrument."
       "Just when the mystery of the cattle mutilations
appears to have been dispelled by a scientific
explanation, a five-month-old bovine was found dead in
San Francisco del Monte de Oro, showing the same
incisions as the others which are a source of intrigue
throughout the country (Argentina)."
       "The discovery was made on Friday night (July 5,
2002) at a ranch known as El Quebrachito, 8 kilometers (5
miles) west of San Francisco del Monte de Oro.  According
to Ruben Diaz, a journalist at Television San Francisco
(TSF), the person who saw the animal first is a man known
as 'El Negro' Vasquez.  The animal in the field belonged
to Alberto Martin, a respected businessman in the
community."
       "According to Diaz, the bovine is missing several
internal organs and its flesh had a strange look.  'It's
as though a machine had gone into its mouth and sucked
out everything inside.'"
       "The external examination showed that the bovine was
missing its ears, tongue, intestines and one eye.  Its
anus appears to have been extracted, and the entire area
presents a wound similar to one made by burns."
       "'Part of the tail has similar lesions,'" Diaz said.
       "People who know the area are startled by the fact
that dogs did not bark out a warning, nor made any sound
whatsoever.  They are further certain that this event was
discovered shortly after it took place.  According to
Diaz, on Friday afternoon, the owner's children were
cutting down a tree not far from where the dead cow was
found.  In an interview on Diaz's TV show, Sr. Martin
stated that he had never before seen anything similar."
       The first mutilations in Tucuman province were
reported last week.
       "Tucuman couldn't be left out.  Eight cows and seven
goats were found mutilated in recent days at the pasture
field owned by INTA (Spanish acronym for National
Institute of Livestock Technology--J.T.) at Santa Rosa de
Leales.  In all cases, the soft tissues were missing,
such as eyes, tongue, gums and genitalia.  Neighbors were
surprised to see that the animals were bloodless."
       "For two months now, cases involving mutilated
animals have kept Argentinians in suspense.  From
extraterrestrial beings to the legendary Chupacabras,
theories regarding the authors of these attacks are
numerous."
       Last week "SENASA (Spanish acronym for National
Health and Agroalimentary Quality Service--J.T.) issued a
report stating that the attacks had been acrried out by a
predator known as the red-muzzled mouse ( Oxymcterus--
J.T.) which had undergone a mutation and become
carnivorous."
       In Buenos Aires province, "The subject of cattle
mutilations appeared to have come to an end following
certain professional explanations, but a new case has
become known in our district."
       "This occurred in the El Taray field owned by Felipe
Sallenave, located on the road to Vado near Public School
No. 19 in the town of Don Cipriano," near Chascomus,
"where the foreman, Fernando Ulloa, witnessed to his
amazement that a pregnant cow that was in perfect health
the day before, showing no signs or symptoms of any
malady, was found dead the next morning with signs of
mutilation."
       "The specimen was a halfbreed Aberdeen Angus and
Hereford.  It was missing its ears, part of the jaw,
tongue, one of its eyes and the nipples on its udders,
all of which had been shorn off.  Part of the rectum was
also missing."
       "It was also learned that the incisions observed
were similar to others seen in similar events that
occurred in similar provinces.  The pasture field's owner
does not consider it possible for the often-mentioned
rodents (red-muzzled mice) to have been involved in the
act, confirming that he made no police report on the
event since he didn't consider it proper.  He further
explained that access to the field was rather complicated
given the poor condition of the roads."
       In a strange twist, Argentina reported its first dog
mutilation last week.  The event took place in Catamarca,
a province west of Santiago del Estero.
       "A large mixed-breed dog was found dead yesterday
morning (Tuesday, July 9, 2002) by its owner in their
dwelling's enclosed backyard.  The animal was missing its
tongue, trachea, aorta, part of its extremities and much
of its skin, which appears to have been sheared off by a
sharp object rather than torn."
       "There was no sign of any blood in the area."  (Seen
the Argentinian newspapers El Diario de la Republica for
July 9, 2002, "Another mutilated cow in San Francisco;"
La Gaceta of Tucuman for July 10, 2002, "Goats and cows
mutilated at the Leales INTA;" El Fuerte of Chascomus for
July 11, 2002, "In the Don Cipriano area, another
mutilated cow discovered;" and El Ancasti of Catamarca
for July 10, 2002, "Mutilated dog found in Catamarca."
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Gloria Coluchi, Alicia
Rossi, Juan Jose Mecchi, Norberto Mollo and Leonardo
Mollo para todos los articulos de diario.) (Editor's
Note:  The dog mutilation in Catamarca is nearly
identical to the Mataperro case in Calama, Chile, that
took place over a year ago.  See UFO Roundup, volume 6,
number 5 for February 1, 2001, "New weird creature
sighted in Calama," page 1.)


UFO SIGHTINGS REMAIN AT A
HIGH LEVEL IN ARGENTINA

       Although overshadowed by the ongoing wave of animal
mutilations, Argentina's current UFO flap racked up even
more sightings last week.  This has now become one of the
longest and biggest UFO flaps in Argentinian history.
       "A new unknown and luminous object appeared over the
Comarca" region of southern Argentina, "but this time the
strange object, which changed colors, was seen last night
(Friday, July 5, 2002) by several local residents--some
25 people--occupying the 268 homes that make up the
village of Carmen de Patagones."
       "Faced with the strange light, the villagers alerted
each other and slowly emerged from their homes and were
stunned by the clarity with which the UFO could be seen."
       "The luminous object's appearance occurred shortly
after 9 p.m. and it remained until 9:30 p.m., at which
time it receded from view until it vanished in the
horizon.  According to the locals who saw it, the object
approached and receded 'like some sort of zoom lens' and
changed colors as it did so."
       "Other locals followed the luminous object with
their eyes, while still others used binoculars.  One
villager phoned a relative in the city of Viedma, who
confirmed that the object was visible from said city."
       "According to the information given by several of
the locals, the object had considerable luminosity,
changed color and moved in a zigzag pattern, although it
stopped at times to move in a swinging motion."
       "The object was allegedly filmed by the daughter of
a local merchant who followed it to the rotunda
(roundabout in UK; rotary in the USA--J.T.) near the
Basilio Villarino Bridge.  It was seen one last time
heading towards Guardia Mitre before losing itself in the
horizon."
       "One of the witnesses was Anibal Benitez, owner of a
business on the Calle Mexico (street), who stated that
'the light was very potent and changed color every so
often to red, blue and bright white,' adding that, 'We
were able to see how an airliner in the distance appeared
to pass over the object, which vanished into the horizon
after following a zigzag pattern.'"
       Benitez "didn't hesitate and followed the object as
it moved.  'I hopped into my pickup truck with my family
and we followed it to the road that leads to Guardia
Mitre, where the object gradually became lost in the
horizon after remaining for a few minutes.'"
       "Isabel, another villager, stated that 'the object
was very luminous, and we could see it for around 25
minutes.  The object appeared to come closer and then
recede.  Many people in the neighborhood saw it."
       Also last week, a UFO was sighted in Santa Rosa de
Leales the same night the livestock were mutilated at the
INTA farm.  "Maria del Carmen Reyes claimed having seen a
bright light, which was followed by the discovery of the
dead animals.  The mystery continues..."  (See the
Argentinian newspapers Noticias de Comarca Viedma for
July 6, 2002, "UFO reported over Patagones," and La
Gaceta of Tucuman for July 10, 2002, "Goats and cows
mutilated at the Leales INTA."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, Gloria Coluchi y Alicia Rossi para esos
articulos de diario.)


INTA FOLLOWS SENASA's LEAD
BUT OTHERS BALK

       Argentina's National Institute of Livestock
Technology (Spanish acronym INTA) issued a statement last
week, affirming its belief that the cattle mutilations
were caused by red-muzzled mice.  But the agency's
conclusions were immediately challenged by scientists and
veterinarians in La Pampa province.
       INTA stated, "The bovine deaths and depredations
reported in several provinces of the country are due to
natural causes proper to this time of year," i.e. winter
in the southern hemisphere.
       "Histopathological studies and necropsies performed
by INTA technicians show that the tissues" from mutilated
cows "present no alternative aside from those which 'are
produced by the passing of time' and that the causes of
death are attributable to 'common diseases of this time
of year.'"
       "The report is based an analyses performed 'as of
June 20' in 'different locations of Buenos Aires
(province) districts of (Coronel) Dorrego, Tres Arroyos,
Tandil, Necochea and Olavarria' at the request of
'veterinarians in private practice.'  During these
visits, 10 animals presenting similar characteristics
were observed, with necropsies being performed on four of
them and samples taken from all of the animals."
       "The histopathological studies performed at the INTA
Balcarce laboratories showed that the animals' tissues
'described as cauterized presented no alternatives beyond
those produced by the passing of time, post-mortem
changes which are common to any tissue several days after
death.'"
       The report also stated that "'necropsies performed
on animals that had been dead for only several hours
revealed that the cause of death could be attributable to
diseases common at this time of year, such as pneumonia,
hypomagnesemia, etc.'"
       "The incisions observed presented 'serrated edges'
which could be explained as 'the action of common
predators.'"
       However, La Pampa's "provincial government dismissed
yesterday (Wednesday, July 8, 2002) the official report
prepared by the National Health and Agroalimentary
Quality Service (Spanish acronym SENASA) regarding the
causes of the deaths and mutilations of dozens of
bovines, since the 'red-muzzled mouse,' the alleged
perpetrator of dozens of bovine deaths and mutilations,
is not found in La Pampa."
       "This was made clear by the Minister of Production,
Nestor Alcala, who pointed out that rodents of this
species 'are unknown to me, nor do I believe they form
part of the Pampan fauna.'"
       "Gustavo Siegenthaler, director of the National
Museum of History of La Pampa, noted that 'this species
has not been found in the surveys we have conducted.'"
       From 1986 to 1992, Siegenthaler said, his
multidisciplinary team "placed between 70 and 120 traps
each night and never found this species (Oxymcterus),
and it does not appear in the bibliography, either."
       According to the book Mammals of Argentina,
published by the Miguel Lillo Institute, the red-muzzled
mouse lives in northeastern Buenos Aires province,
between the Parana and Uruguay rivers.
       "'It could not have spread to other areas because it
would have been detected,'" Siegenthaler said.
(Editor's Comment: So not only did Oxymcterus
spontaneously mutate from a herbivore to a carnivore, the
little devil suddenly changed its habitat from the semi-
tropical wetlands of the Rio Parana to the dry prairie of
La Pampa province!)
       "Dr. Alberto Pariani, professor of the School of
Veterinary Medicine at the Universidad Nacional de la
Pampa (National University of La Pampa) at Pico, after
reading the SENASA report, commented, 'There are always
field mice, but, for example, in the (mutilation) cases
that were found in the field, there were no traces of
rodent fecal matter.'"  (See the Argentinian newspapers
Diario Rio Negro for July 6, 2002, "INTA backs SENASA's
findings" and Diario de La Pampa for July 9, 2002,
"Authorities state that the red-muzzled mouse does not
exist in La Pampa."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y
Alicia Rossi para esos articulos de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  So far the government of Argentina is
reacting the same way India did during the Hanuman flap
back in April 2001.  First they ignore the paranormal
event for as long as possible.  Then, when the event
becomes too big to ignore, they sieze upon a plausible
"scientific" explanation--ANY explanation--and that
becomes the official explanation, and the government
sticks to it, no matter what.  India's explanation for
the 2001 Hanuman incidents--"mass hysteria."
Argentina's explanation for the 2002 mutilations--"red-
muzzled mice."  Let's see if this behavior pattern
repeats itself during next year's big flap...wherever it
occurs.)


WEIRD LIGHT FLASHES SEEN
IN SOMERSET, UK

       On Saturday, July 6, 2002, at 10:45 p.m., N.W. and a
friend were driving "between Shepton Mallet and Bath,
Avon, Somerset, UK" when "eastward, to the right of us,
the sky pulsated in a large area, with bright lights
going from extreme brightness to fade, on a regular
pattern.  Lasting over a minute.  Then, when it stopped,
the sky itself remained scorched-like."
       "We rushed to our hotel and told our colleagues
about the incident."
       "There was no abnormal weather.  It was a balmy
summer evening, and we had previously been to Wells for a
meal and walked casually through the streets."
       "It was too large an area to be an aircraft, and too
large even to be man-made, likewise even to be weather or
a natural creation.  No actual machine (UFO) was seen,
but our experience will never be forgotten.  It was as if
the area was being touched by a great visitation.  Both
my partner and I are professional people, and we
hesitated in reporting the incident.  Were we the only
ones to see it?"  (Email Form Report)


SMALL METAL SPHERE FALLS
FROM THE SKY IN BRAZIL

       "A metallic sphere found on a farm situated in the
Pantanal" region of Brazil's southwestern state of Mato
Grosso do Sul "is causing a furor."
       News agencies in Brazil described the sphere as
"measuring 60 centimeters in diameter and 1.9 meters in
circumference.  The object weighs approximately 30
kilograms."
       The discovery triggered wild rumors in Campo Grande,
the state capital of Mato Grosso do Sul, as people took
to calling the sphere "E.T.'s egg."
       The Fuerza Aerea Brasileira (FAB, i.e. Brazilian Air
Force) has taken custody of the sphere, and it is now in
a restricted area at the FAB air base on the outskirts of
Campo Grande.
       "'It is still to be inspected,'" a FAB spokesman
said, "'The most probable hypothesis is that it is a
piece of a satellite.'"  (See the newspaper Journal do
Brasil of Rio de Janeiro for July 14, 2002, "Fallen from
the sky," page A6.  Muito obrigado a Victor Scott por eso
caso.)
(Editor's Note:  Back in February, there was a UFO flap
in the Pantanal.  Five cattle were killed and mutilated
in Rochedo, 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of Campo
Grande.  For details, see UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 9
for February 26, 2002, "Small alien sighted in Brazil's
Pantanal region," page 2.)


UFO DOES A FAST FLYBY
OVER ST. LOUIS

       On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, witness S. Rao was walking
down the street in St. Louis, Missouri, one of the
largest cities in the USA's Midwest, when he spotted "a
strange object approaching from the west."
       "It was an object moving at a great speed," Rao
reported, "The significant thing is that it was making
circular motions over and over, as if it was doing a
reconnaisance of the area.  It was oval, color bluish,
with a tail and a vane projecting from the two tops of
the larger axis.  It had only one window-like structure
at the front, and" there were "lights on the back of the
oval object.  Could be about 30 feet (9 meters) long and
15 feet (4.5 meters) wide."  (Email Form Report)


UFOs REPORTED IN ONTARIO
AND ALBERTA IN CANADA

       UFOs were sighted last week in Canada's provinces of
Ontario and Alberta.
       "This past Saturday night, July 6 (2002), my wife
and I experienced an intriguing phenomenon up at our
cottage on Go Home Lake in Muskoka, Ontario.  After
dinner, at about 9:30 p.m., we decided to take a little
cruise in our boat.  It was a beautiful evening, just
before dusk.  We had our running lights on and proceeded
in a northerly direction very slowly."
       "About ten minutes into our cruise," the witness
reported, "I noticed a very bright light off the port
(left) side of our boat in a westerly direction, about 35
degrees off (above) the horizon.  I asked my wife if she
thought it was a star, but then I noticed it was moving.
It was moving and in the same direction as us at
proportionate speed."
       "We, of course, didn't know what this could be, but
as an exercise, I sped up the boat to about 30 miles per
hour (48 kilometers per hour) and, sure enough, the
lighted object did the same thing, just enough to stay
with us.  My wife and I were amazed that it reacted.  Was
it a fluke?  We slowed right down to about a stop, and it
did the same.  I sped up and turned 180 degrees and
watched as it turned the same way and in the same
direction."
       "I came to a stop and turned the lights out.  It sat
in the sky in one spot.  I couldn't leave the light off
too long because another boat was coming along and passed
us going south about 200 feet (60 meters) off my
starboard (right) side.  I thought the lighted observer
might then pick up the other boat, but it stayed still."
       "My wife was feeling a little bit spooked, so we
decided to head back to the cottage.  During the five-
mile (8-kilometer) trip, our friend (the UFO) stayed with
us.  We tied up our boat, and the object drifted slowly
out of sight over the trees.  We went to bed thinking
this was quite an experience."
(Editor's Comment:  The sudden arrival of the southbound
powerboat may have prevented a contact.  For the sake of
this couple's peace of mind, I hope they never read a
book entitled The Allagash Abductions.)
       On Tuesday, June 25, 2002, the witness was at home
that evening in Edmonton, Alberta when he and his wife
spotted a UFO.  He reported, "I had just joined my wife
on the deck and was showing her how to find the North
Star (Polaris).  For a few minutes, we sat on the steps,
looking our own ways, when right through my line of sight
went two spherical shapes, rotating around each other,
moving through the sky from north to south."
       "My first impression, due to the G-8 Summit (meeting
then in session in the Canadian Rockies--J.T.) is that it
was some kind of spotlight.  But as I tried to point it
out to my wife, I realized that not only was it a very
clear night but that the two objects moved in a straight
line and very fast as they turned around each other.  My
guess is that they were 5,000 to 10,000 feet (1,500 to
3,000 meters) high, or about as high as an airliner would
fly" over Edmonton.  (Many thanks to Sue Darroch of Para-
Researchers of Ontario for the Muskoka story.  The
Edmonton story was an Email Form Report.)


WEIRD ORBS APPEAR AT
THE WAILING WALL

       Jerusalem had another paranormal incident at the Old
City's Wailing Wall.  The incident occurred on the
Sabbath last week, approximately two weeks after the
first mysterious Fortean flow of water first appeared.
       On Saturday, July 6, 2002, a remote TV camera picked
up images of "orbs seen on the corner to the right of the
Wailing Wall.  They seemed to have facial features almost
like a ghost," reported investigator Charlotte LeFevre,
"I believe these are not sunspots because the first and
the last frames (of the video) are 20 minutes apart, and
the lights are the same.  Notice the difference in
shadows which also would have affected the location of a
sunspot."
      The orbs were described as "sharp and distinct.  Note
also that the light pole nearby is not even on as it is
already morning.  The orbs were next to the women's
(prayer) area in front of the Wall."
       Both Charlotte LeFevre and Philip Lipson of the
Seattle UFO/Paranormal Group have a video clip of the
phenomenon available at this website:
http://www.aish.com/wallcam/
       On Saturday, June 29, 2002, a trickle of water
appeared on the Wailing Wall about 4 meters (13 feet)
above ground level.  (See UFO Roundup, volume 7, number
28 for July 9, 2002, "Strange phenomenon appears in
Jerusalem," page 7.)
       Some paranormal researchers theorize that these
manifestations may be a portent relating to Tisha B'Av
(Hebrew for The Ninth of Av), also known as July 17,
which is the date of significant and often disastrous
events in Jewish history.  (See Filer's Files #28 for
2002.  Many thanks to George A. Filer for allowing UFO
Roundup to quote from his original news story.) (Editor's
Comment:  Strictly speaking, this one sounds more like a
ghost manifestation than a UFO.  First the Wall begins
spewing water.  Then the faces of long-dead patriarchs
appear.  Will some tragedy happen in Jerusalem?  We'll
find out tomorrow--July 17--the Ninth of Av.  And, as
always, I wonder about these so-called "portents."  Are
they the legitimate article?  Or is this just the
Paranormal Scare of the Month?)


CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN
UK AND CANADA

       On Thursday, July 4, 2002, a giant crop circle
appeared at Normanton Down, Wiltshire, UK, not far from
the ruins at Stonehenge.  The formation appeared in a
field of wheat.  "The enormous figure, which resembled a
rose blossom with six spiralling petals, measured 700
feet (212 meters) in diameter.  It is the largest crop
circle reported so far this year in UK."
       On Friday, July 5, 2002, "several crop circles
appeared in a wheat field near Grand River on Prince
Edward Island," in Canada's northeastern maritime
provinces.  "The circles were up to 6 meters (20 feet) in
diameter."
       However, Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circles
Research Network reports that the Grand Island formation
appears to have been caused by the weather.  He stated,
"An eyewitness describes 'funnels' creating the circles
on Friday, July 5, 2002, during a thunderstorm."
       Other formations, described as "flattened circles,"
were found in nearby New Brunswick the same day.  (Many
thanks to Paul Anderson of CCCRN for these news stories.)


BOYS FIND A STRANGE
TALISMAN IN NORWAY

       "People in the tiny fishing village of Rorvik,
Norway are calling tow-headed brothers Orjan and Robert
Mikalsen The Lords of the Ring."
       "The boys were fishing among the rocks near the
village when they pulled in a cod, a common fish in the
cold waters of the North Sea."
       "'Suddenly I saw something in the fish's mouth,'
recalls 11-year-old Orjan."
       "I opened the mouth and saw a gold ring.  It looked
like a wedding ring."
       "Says Robert, 10: 'It was strange to see a ring in
the mouth of a cod we'd just pulled out of the sea.  At
first I thought the fish must be enchanted.'"
       "The boys took the ring back to their parents--and
began a chain of strange coincidences."
       "Their mother looked at the plain gold band and
exclaimed, 'I recognize that ring!  Your cousin Helga
lost it in the ocean 14 years ago.'"
       "Helga confirmed that the ring was an engagement
band she was given by her then-boyfriend back in 1988 and
that they had indeed lost it in the sea."
       "'Maybe it was because they lost the ring, but they
never did get married,' the boys' mother says."
       "Since they found the ring in the cod's mouth, the
brothers fish every day, hoping to find more treasures."
       "'Maybe next time we'll find a diamond,' Orjan
says." "'Or a gold coin,' says Robert."
       Rorvik is on Vikna Island, just off the coat of
Norway, located about 100 kilometers (60 miles) north of
Trondheim.
       Curiously, Rorvik is also the site of a mysterious
incident involving "the underground world."
       In the Tenth Century A.D., Sunniva, a princess of
Ireland and her followers, fled their native land and
settled in Norway, not far from Rorvik.  Shortly after
their arrival, there was a rash of cattle disappearances,
and the Norwegians, believing the Irish to be cattle
thieves, raised a small army to drive them out.  The
Irish fled into caves on the island, and Sunniva used a
magic ring, a talisman from her homeland, to cause an
earthquake.  The quake triggered landslides which sealed
off the caves and prevented the locals from entering "the
underground world."  (See the tabloid Sun for July 16,
2002, "Two brothers are Lords of the Ring," page 33.)
(Editor's Note: Tales of rings and sorcerers go way, way
back.  In 1935, French archaeologist Andre Parrot
excavated the palace of King Zimri-Lim at Tell al-Hariri
in Iraq.  Among the items he discovered was a cuneiform
letter from Ibal-pi-Il to King Hammurabi from around
1,730 B.C.  The letter describes a sorcerer named Ilu-
nasir, who lived in the city of Zuruban, built two towers
there, and performed thirty "great feats of magic" with
his gold ring.  Zuruban and the wizard's two towers are
long gone--the text says the city was "on the banks of
the Purattu" (Euphrates River) in what is now Iraq's Al-
Anbar province.  If the ring the Mikalsen boys found was
Ilu-nasir's Ring of Zuruban, how did it get to Norway!?)


  From the UFO Files...

1999: UFOs BATTLE IN MID-AIR
            OVER SRI LANKA

       Right now a UFO flap is going on in the north
central region of Sri Lanka, an island nation in the
Indian Ocean.  The most commonly seen UFO these days is a
self-luminous blue sphere.
       However, this isn't the first time the blue spheroid
UFO has appeared over the island.  This UFO put in a
rather dramatic appearance nearly three years ago.
       An eyewitness, Sunethra R., reminisced: "The 12th of
September 1999 was the last day of our Sri Lanka visit,
as we had to take the flight back to New Zealand" the
following day.  "That evening, I went to one of my
university friends' place in Wijerama, on Sri
Jayawardanapura Road."
       "While we were talking inside, my two-and-a-half-
year-old son was playing outside.  He informed us loudly:
'Mum, colourful planes are in the sky now!'"
       "We all went outside to see it."
       "We saw three balls (spheres) at the same time,
reacting to each other.  There were three big round balls
in three colours--red, blue and bright yellow--and (they
were) moving in the faraway sky, having some sort of
reaction with each other.  It seems they had a sort of
fight by knocking into each other."
       Sunethra, her son, her friend and her friend's
brother "watched for more than 45 minutes."
       "Somehow two balls--the red and the bright yellow--
were struck so strongly that there was now a fire in the
sky, throwing down many lighted particles everywhere."
       "When it finished, the other (blue) ball wandered
there for some time and then vanished into the deep dark
sky.  We watched this scene for about one hour.  It was a
clear and wonderful sight as the night was so clear."
       "My friend's brother called the neighbours to tell
them what was happening. At least 25 people saw the scene
as there were many (local) people at home during this
evening."
       "It was a wonderful experience, and it's still on my
mind, as if it happened today...even if I couldn't
believe my eyes at the time!"  (Email Form Report.  For
more on the current UFO flap in Sri Lanka, see UFO
Roundup, volume 7, number 28 for July 9, 2002, "V-shaped
UFO seen every night in Sri Lanka," page 1.)


       And we'll be back next week with more UFO,
paranormal and Fortean news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home-- UFO
Roundup."  See you in seven days.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from
UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided
that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name
and list the date of issue in which the item first
appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and
UFO Sightings Italia.
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 17

                   'Mothman And Other Curious Encounters'

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:12:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:44:51 -0400
Subject: 'Mothman And Other Curious Encounters'


RI Mutual UFO Network (RI MUFON) and PARANOIA Magazine present:

Loren Coleman, Cryptozoologist

"MOTHMAN and Other Curious Encounters"

Friday, July 19, 2002, 7:30 p.m.

In his upcoming Rhode Island talk, Cryptozoologist Loren
Coleman, author of Mothman and Other Curious Encounters, will
discuss his recent trek to Point Pleasant, West Virginia, and
his investigations of the Mothman, the giant red-eyed, headless,
winged creature which terrorized West Virginia in 1966-67. Are
they "harbingers of woe"? Are they still being seen?

The "Mothman Flap" was made famous by Coleman=B9s friend, writer
John Keel in his book The Mothman Prophecies, and lasted 13
months beginning in November of 1966. Keel claims over 200
people reported this phenomenon to him. Some said they saw the
anomalous creature either standing or flying, while others
claimed they simply felt its presence. Others reported dreams
and premonitions of impending calamities. Keel himself received
bizarre prophecies by telephone, culminating in the collapse of
the Silver Bridge where 46 people died. The Mothman Flap also
coincided with animal mutilations and UFO sightings. Keel=B9s 1975
book made it to the Hollywood screen this January and came out
on video/DVD last month.

Loren Coleman has been doing fieldwork on unexplained phenomena
for 41 years. He is now the most sought-after expert in
Cryptozoology, which is the study of unknown animals, or
"cryptids." "He=B9s really the foremost expert on Mothman next to
John Keel," said Marc Weinstock, vice president of marketing for
Sony/Screen Gems. "He knows the story and he can speak to it
well. Because of that, he=B9s being sought out for interviews."

Coleman views Mothman in terms of a continuing vortex of Fortean
phenomena. According to Coleman, there=B9s a long history of
Mothman-type creatures going back to the 15th Century worldwide,
as well as American native traditions and folklore. Coleman is
the author of several books in the Cryptozoology genre,
including Mysterious America, The Field Guide to Bigfoot,
Cryptozoology A to Z, and Tom Slick: True Life Encounters in
Cryptozoology.


RI MUFON meets at:

Cranston Senior Center, 1070 Cranston Street, Cranston

See Directions Below!


Donation: $5.00 for non-members

Information: 401-636-8022

Sponsored by Rhode Island Mutual UFO Network (RI MUFON) and PARANOIA
Magazine

E-mail questions to: joandarc@compuserve.com or RIMUFON@hotmail.com

Loren Coleman=B9s website: http://www.lorencoleman.com



->Directions to Cranston Senior Center

1070 Cranston Street, Cranston, Rhode Island

->Directions from Route 95, going North:

 >From I-95 North, take exit 16 (Route 10 North/Elmwood Avenue)

Bear left off the exit ramp onto Route 10 North

You are now on the Huntington Parkway, Route 10, going north

Take the Industrial Park/Cranston Street exit

Bear left off the exit onto Niantic Avenue

At the intersection, take a left onto Cranston Street

Watch for Fiesta Fruitland on your right - you are close!

Pass Phred=B9s Drug and Stamas Auto & Truck (both on your right)

The Center is on your immediate left, across from Dover Street, between
Oneida and Asia

Park in the City Hall lot next door to the Center

-> Directions from Route 95, going South:

 >From I-95 South, take exit 22 (Route 6 West/Route 10 toward Downtown and
Hartford)

Follow signs to Route 6 West / Route 10

Get in the left lane and take the Route 10 South ramp

You=B9re now on Huntington Parkway / Route 10, going South

Take the Cranston Street exit

Bear right off the exit onto Garfield

At the light, take a left onto Cranston Street

Watch for Fiesta Fruitland on your right - you are close!

Pass Phred=B9s Drug and Stamas Auto & Truck (both on your right)

The Center is on your immediate left, across from Dover Street, between
Oneida and Asia

Park in the City Hall lot next door to the Center


Location and Contact Information

RI MUFON meets at the Cranston Senior Center, 1070 Cranston Street,
Cranston, RI.

See directions above or e-mail RIMUFON@hotmail.com.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *









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   Jul > Jul 17

                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:54:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:47:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:00:57 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >Picketing works. People picketing for other causes are not seen
 >as discrediting themselves because they take to the streets with
 >signs. Picketing is value-neutral. The only problem with
 >picketing is that in the field of UFOlogy and other important
 >causes which are ignored by the powers that be, is that it isn't
 >done nearly enough.

Being a child of the 60s, I'm quite familiar with how
demonstrations and picketting can work. (I think we're really
taking about a "demonstration", but I don't want to get into a
major discussion of the difference.) If you can get 10 to 15
thousand people to demonstrate in support of UFO research and
such, then you'll probably get the media attention you're
looking for. But, to get only 15 to 20 people out on the street
carrying signs is laughable. That shows LACK of support for the
effort, and certainly won't inspire others to join in
(regardless of their beliefs).

I suppose if you really want to picket (i.e. block entrances and
roadways to make a point and gain attention), then you'll get
more publicity with just a few people. But, I'm not sure that
it's the type of publicity that would helpful and I believe few
in this genre are willing to spend a night in jail for thier
beliefs.

 >The main problem is the suppression of UFO issues and the
 >consistent ending of the few UFO items with something to
 >discredit, such as a crack about "little green men", or a
 >condescending tone and mannerisms, or the trusty old skeptic's
 >statement that UFOs can't be spacecraft because you can't travel
 >faster than light (even though French scientist Alain Aspect
 >showed that at least one signal type can.)

It's a cycle that will be hard to break. The problem is that
many in the UFO community are easy targets for criticism from
both skeptics and researchers.

 >>>Interviewing Stephen Bassett hardly requires a "major
 >>>investigation".

 >>Bassett had indicated that the Washington Post has already
 >>contacted him about an interview, but I don't know if it has
 >>taken place. My comment related to the implication that the
 >>Washington Post should fully investigate the UFO phenomenon and
 >>coverup of information, which IMO wouldn't happen unless there
 >>is a major event that triggers it.

 >That's for sure. There are some papers like the San Jose Mercury
 >News which do investigative reporting projects, though.

The Washington Post does some investigative reporting when there
is a hard news angle to follow. Has the San Jose Mercury done
any investigative reports on UFOs or the UFO coverup? If not,
what do you think the chances are?

Steve








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   Jul > Jul 17

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:03:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:50:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:39:25 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>So, despite John's protestations -- who's got the open mind? Jerry,
 >>who contradicts believers, and says that a purported UFO was actually

 >>a balloon? Or John, who apparently won't allow the possibility that a

 >>disputed UFO photograph even _might_ show an unknown object?

 >At the moment I have no particular idea what the Trindade
 >photographs represent, and that is not the point I'm arguing.
 >The start of this very long debate was when I challenged the
 >assumption that the strength of the Trindade case was that there
 >were 48 witnesses to the event. Two weeks into the argument and
 >we still do not have the names of any other than the three named
 >by the photographer, and we do not have any recorded statement
 >by these people of any of the other 45 (?) about what happened.

 >People on this list are constantly comparing the UFO evidence to
 >that presented in a court of law. Try admitting this third-hand
 >hearsay evidence and you'd be thrown out: "Yes, your honour,
 >there were 48 people who saw the accused batter the little old
 >lady over the head and steal her purse -- well, I don't actually
 >know their names,. and I've never spoken to them myself, but if
 >any of them hadn't seen it, surely they would have made a
 >statement to the police".

 >Not very convincing!

Court of law? I'm reminded more of a basketball court. You shift
your position faster than a player with the basketball, trying
to fake out the opposition. But at least he'll admit he's
faking.

Nothing in your post addresses the point I made. You'd
criticized "believers" - meaning Jerry Clark - for never
accepting evidence that contradicts their beliefs. I presented
Jerry opposing believers in the Mantell case, and presented you,
John, apparently ruling out any possibility that the Trinidade
photos might show a physical object. My conclusion, until
someone proves otherwise: At least in this one instance, someone
you tag as a believer is far more open-minded than you seem to
be.

Now you reply with this nonsense about a court of law. And it
truly is nonsense. The Trinidade case isn't being presented in
court. Esseentially, you and Jerry are arguing about it as
historians. What should a historian conclude about this event
from the past, given what we have on the admittedly scanty
record? As Jerry keeps pointing out, there are many references
to witnesses, all couched in language that tells us the
witnesses were spoken to by the authorities. Historians would
accept that. They wouldn't consider it as strong as witness
testimony that's actually documented, with names of the
witnesses, and transcripts of what they said. But historians, if
they had to come to a conclusion, would at least tentatively
agree that there very likely were witnesses. You have no
evidence, none at all, that suggests that there weren't. All you
have are conjectures, which, quite frankly, I can't believe
you'd venture if you weren't panting to poke holes in the case.
And your conjectures are, often enough, just plain silly. "The
Brazilian Navy would never have taken all those days to get the
photos, if the photos were truly that important." Or words to
that effect. Pure fantasy. All you have to do is read the
newspaper every day to find, over and over again, cases where
official bodies don't act efficiently. I mentioned two rather
spectacular instancesin a post just a few days ago -- which, I
notice, you didn't respond to.

Don't you have the grace to admit it when you're clearly wrong?

Wasting my time,

Greg Sandow








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   Jul > Jul 17

                 Re: Setting The Record Straight - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:54:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting The Record Straight - Hamilton


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:46:09 -0400
 >Subject: Setting The Record Straight

<snip>

 >It's sad when one sick individual drags the level of the
 >interaction down to a place where out of pure self-defence,
 >posts such as this one are necessary.

 >I have never backed down from anything or anybody. I'm not going
 >to start now at age 53. This nonsense stops here and now.

 >Posted with regrets for taking up the valuable time of the List
 >readers.



John

I have always valued your forthrightness and do so now.
Harassment is something I am familiar with only in my case it
was directed against my wife who was only trying to honestly
tell her story and maybe be of some help. Because of that
harassment, she no longer tells her story.

Some of these harassers just don't get it and we don't want it
and we don't need it.

Thanks.

In support,

Bill Hamilton







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   Jul > Jul 17

                    Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:57:35 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hamilton


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:53:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:39:30 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:20:15 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:39:19 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III


 >This is a nice idea but it means work. Anyone who is going to
 >make a positive contribution to a case would have to study it
 >carefully. In some situations the amount of information
 >available is limited or 'finite' where is in other cases it
 >might seem "infinite." The Mantell case, one assumes, has
 >"finite" or limited information. Most of what can be known about
 >the case already is known. However, there still might be old
 >records that have not been researched or analyzed. So, who is
 >going to do that work?

I have to agree with you Bruce. Accessing information on a case
is one aspect of this work. It would take a database catalog to
access the existing information, but to collect additional
information goes beyond the time constraints of a UFO hobbist
who has a full-time professional career and other UFO hobby
activities to pursue.

 >Perhaps the modus operandi should be as in the legal system. One
 >person (or a small group) intentionally acts as the advocate(s)
 >for a case and presents all the available information. Then the
 >others analyze and comment. This, of course, requires a
 >considerable time input by all.

Didn't we do this, somewhat, with the Alien Autopsy footage? A
small group of advocates established a website, then many were
asked to comment pro and con on the evidence.

 >Kevin mentioned two cases associated with my name: Arnold and
 >Gulf Breeze. The Arnold sighting lasted a couple of minutes and
 >has resulted in thousands of words and hours of discussion and
 >analysis on this list.... leading to the conclusion that what
 >Arnold saw was either unexplained (and extraterrestrial?) or
 >else pelicans (or geese, or meteors, or atmospheric phenomena or
 >mirage, or motes in the eye or... you name it!). (see a
 >monumental discussion of Arnold at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com

 >scroll down page and look for the first sighting)

 >How does one conclude the Arnold case after all this discussion?
 >Take a vote? Can a concensus be reached? Can't we just all get
 >along? But if so, what does that prove? A bunch of "rational
 >believers" arrived at a conclusion and outvoted the "rational
 >skeptics" ? And then what happens? We turn it over to a skeptics
 >group (e.g. CSICOPers) and challenge them to provide an
 >explanation under the tacit (if not stated) assumption that they
 >won';t be able to find an explanation because in our discussion
 >we ruled out all explanations?

Of course, that would be tantamount to saying all data on the
case is available and accessible and complete and overwhelmingly
points to a single conclusion so how can those other dummies
arrive at some Pelican solution?

 >Nobody "out there" is really going to care until this breaks
 >into the main stream.

True

 >Re: discussing Gulf Breeze on this List as 'a case' for vetting.
 >Whereas the complete set of information on what Arnold saw is
 >based on a 2.5 (about) minute sighting, the information on Gulf
 >Breeze is not just a few minutes, not just a few hours, not even
 >just a few days or a few weeks, but information gained over
 >_months_ and , yes, _years_ (including stuff that was never
 >published anywhere).

 >I have presented one case that involved Ed and other witnesses
 >and several photos. (Jan 8, 1990; "Not Just Another Evening
 >Stroll"). You can read about it on my web site.

 >The totality of information is limited - it was sort of an
 >isolated event (within a much larger series of events starting
 >in Nov. 1987 and ending in the middle 90's) involving multiple
 >witnesses and photos and, as such, is worthy of study. But to
 >propose 'The Gulf Breeze Case' as did Kevin, is to propose
 >literally hours of work leading to days, weeks, months of
 >discussion on various aspects of what happened in 1987 and 1988
 >(Ed's sightings and those of over a hundred other witnesses).
 >Then one could switch to the Bubba sightings (Nov. 1990 through
 >July 1992), witnessed and videotaped and photographed up the
 >wazoo, again leading to a monumental amount of work to 'solve'
 >the sightings (if that is possible). Again, some of this is at
 >my web site.

 >Bottom line: if you expect to get anywhere on a particular case
 >and arrive at an agreed-upon answer better pick and choose
 >wisely... and participants in a discussion of same should
 >prepare to spend time understanding what is going on. (Consider
 >the ongoing Rendlesham case, for example, which seems to produce
 >new information every year. How many thousands of words have
 >been written on that case over the years... and where are we on
 >it? Is it proven one way or the other? Some think yes, I guess,
 >and some think not.)

My suggestion, if this is going to be done, is that someone
establish a website with a comment form and a database
connection where all the facts can be stated on a case and
comments and analysis entered into a database, but I still bet
it will not come out much different than this forum with debates
over the most miniscule points and advocates and skeptics still
walking their separate ways.

Any efforts in the direction of unifying UFO studies,
instituting peer review, gaining support from outside scientific
individuals or groups will take a virtual institution on the
order of establishing a research center or university in my
opinion.

-Bill Hamilton







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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:11:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:06:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Young


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:06:46 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:45:32 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>>From: Larry Bryant <evelarr@msn.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:54:04 -0400
 >>>Subject: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >>Personally, I believe that the demonstration by Operation Right
 >>To Know (or ORTK) in front of the Washington Post made the genre
 >>look more foolish and fringe oriented. If we are hoping to
 >>obtain credibility in the eyes of science, we don't need events
 >>such as that to make us look like fools. This effort was
 >>compared to the Peace Marches of the 60's, but that's stretching
 >>it quite a bit IMO.

 >I would suggest that what makes ufology "fringe-like" is not
 >picketing, but the refusal of both mainstream science and media
 >to acknowledge the importance of the field.

Eleanor:

Oh, come on. This was nothing more than a cheap publicity stunt.
There are nutties on the street in tiny numbers in Washington
every day, for every imaginable kind of cause. And mainstream
science doesn't give a damn about them, why should it?

The real question for Ufology is: What idiot tried to
demonstrate the importance of the message by demonstrating in
front of a newspaper's office because it wasn't paying
attention?

Your average very skeptical editor will take it as proof that
his or her editorial judgement was right on the mark to begin
with.

The problem, Eleanor, is the message.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:09:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>,
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:23:07 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:39:25 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>At the moment I have no particular idea what the Trindade
 >>photographs represent, and that is not the point I'm arguing.
 >>The start of this very long debate was when I challenged the
 >>assumption that the strength of the Trindade case was that there
 >>were 48 witnesses to the event. Two weeks into the argument and
 >>we still do not have the names of any other than the three named
 >>by the photographer, and we do not have any recorded statement
 >>by these people of any of the other 45 (?) about what happened.

<snip>

 >Nothing in your post addresses the point I made. You'd
 >criticized "believers" - meaning Jerry Clark - for never
 >accepting evidence that contradicts their beliefs. I presented
 >Jerry opposing believers in the Mantell case, and presented you,
 >John, apparently ruling out any possibility that the Trinidade
 >photos might show a physical object.

I would be interested if you could dredge up any statement where
I ruled out the possibilty that the Trindade photographs show a
physical object As I have said several times before, I am not
(at this stage, at least) considering the nature of the
photographs. I am challenging the repeated, by in my view
totally unproven, assertion that there were 48 witnesses to the
sightings.

 >My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: At least in this
 >one instance, someone you tag as a believer is far more open-
 >minded than you seem to be.

My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: you are not
actually reading what I write.

 >Now you reply with this nonsense about a court of law. And it
 >truly is nonsense. The Trinidade case isn't being presented in
 >court.

People on this List have repeatedly used the analogy of a court
of law when discussing the evidential value of UFO reports.
Usually this has been to argue against sceptics, claiming that
the value of eyewitness reports in a UFO case is of the same
value as eyewitness testimony in court cases.

 >Essentially, you and Jerry are arguing about it as historians. What
 >should a historian conclude about this event from the past, given what
 >we have on the admittedly scanty record?

 >As Jerry keeps pointing out, there are many references to
 >witnesses, all couched in language that tells us the witnesses
 >were spoken to by the authorities. Historians would accept that.
 >They wouldn't consider it as strong as witness testimony that's
 >actually documented, with names of the witnesses, and
 >transcripts of what they said. But historians, if they had to
 >come to a conclusion, would at least tentatively agree that
 >there very likely were witnesses.

I'm not bothered about historians, I'm addressing UFO
researchers, who present no names, no statements, no evidence,
no multi-witness case.

 >You have no evidence, none at all, that suggests that there
 >weren't.

Yes I have: the complete absence of any evidence that there
were! The only evidence you present is conjectures based on
interpretations of statements made by people who weren't there,
which themselves were sometimes presented secondhand.

 >All you have are conjectures, which, quite frankly, I
 >can't believe you'd venture if you weren't panting to poke holes
 >in the case. And your conjectures are, often enough, just plain
 >silly.

 >"The Brazilian Navy would never have taken all those days to get
 >the photos, if the photos were truly that important." Or words
 >to that effect. Pure fantasy.

Of course, if the Brazilian government has seized the film and
taken it away to be developed in a government lab, that would be
solid evidence for the genuineness of the photographs, wouldn't
it?

 >All you have to do is read the newspaper every day to find, over
 >and over again, cases where official bodies don't act
 >efficiently. I mentioned two rather spectacular instances in a
 >post just a few days ago - which, I notice, you didn't respond
 >to.

Last time Magonia mentioned September 11, we got ticked off for
bad taste, so I'm not going to venture there. Yes, governments
and public bodies do make silly decisons and do illogical
things. Do you think that if the US government announced that a
spacecraft had crashed at Roswell, I would be able to deny it by
pointing out stupid mistakes the government had made in the
past? What exactly is your point here?

 >Don't you have the grace to admit it when you're clearly wrong?

 >Wasting my time,

Clearly.

 >Greg Sandow


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                        Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:35:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:35:17 -0400
Subject: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters


Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

Discovery channel, Wednesday, 24 July, 10.30pm 'a look at claims
that UFO sightings in the UK were covered up during the Cold
War.'

TV and Satellite Week, 20-26 July 2002:

ALIEN NATION
by Richard McClure

In August 1950, two young RAF pilots saw a bright object flying
rapidly over Farnborough airfield that was unlike anything they
had seen before.

The grey, disc-shaped craft flew directly overhead, before
disappearing from view. 'There were electric sparks coming from
it. I was awestruck,' recalls Stan Hubbard, one of the pilots.
'It was quite beyond this world's technology.'

Hubbard and Frank Jolliffe reported their sightings, but after
being ordered not to discuss the incident, heard no more about
it as, officially, the Government claimed to take no interest in
UFOs.

But secretly - as the Discovery documentary Britain's Secret UFO
Hunters reveals - the Government was so concerned that it set up
a secret department to investigate the possibility that 'alien
beings' had visited Earth.

Led by Wing Commander Myles Formby, the investigation was based
in the attic room of a government building overlooking
Whitehall, referred to only as Room 801. Like the agents played
by Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones in the Men in Black movies,
the team's job was to monitor suspected extraterrestrial
activity.

Over the next few years, Room 801 became the nerve centre of
official UFO research - though the Government continued to deny
its existence.

In 1952, the investigation became more urgent after a UFO
sighting in the skies above Washington DC. Prime Minister
Winston Churchill sent a memo to the Ministry of Defence,
demanding to know: 'What does all this stuff about flying
saucers amount to? What is the truth?'

But after examining three reliable sightings in Britain,
including the Farnborough incident, a secret report - only
recently discovered - found no evidence of alien activity. It
declared that Hubbard was either 'the victim of an optical
illusion, or that he observed some quite normal aircraft and
deceived himself about its shape and speed,' and concluded that
no further investigations were necessary.

Fifty years on, Hubbard is still convinced he had a close
encounter with alien beings. 'I find the report completely
insulting,' he saus. 'What I saw was the real thing - and it was
not of this planet.'

For a full interview with Wing Commander Stan Hubbard,
see:

'Flying Saucers Over Farnborough'

by David Clarke and Andy Roberts, in this month's UFO Magazine
(UK) on sale from 27 June, details at:

www.ufomag.co.uk

See also 'Britain's Secret UFO Hunters' in the Daily Mail,
Saturday, 20 July 2002.








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                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:53:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:39:05 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Young


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:23:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

<snip>

 >The question is, then, does this level of witness accuracy
 >carry over to the cases for which there appears to be no
 >explanation?

Bruce:

If taken as a general statement, it must.  And since the result is,
tentatively [it must be tentative, right?] "Unkown", we probably
won't know.

<snip>

 >Here we see this argument again: the existence of IFO cases
 >implies witness unreliability. This is true if you stick to the
 >witness' _interpretation_ of what was seen. However, if you
 >extract only the observational data ( let an investigator
 >analyze that) and arrive at an explanation then the ability to
 >deduce a reasonable explanation from the reported observational
 >data is evidence of witness reliability.

Bruce:

Yes, that is the conundrum, isn't it?

We're circling, here, like [gulp] a couple of pelicans over a
trash barrel in a parking lot.


Clear skies,

Bob Young
[squak, squak]








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                  Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:53:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:41:51 -0400
Subject: Re: o Skeptics Reading This List - Young


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:47:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:55:11 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:46:9 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List

<snip>

 >>>There is a paradox operating in human reporting: much human
 >>>advances in science and other fields are based on highly
 >>>reliable observation and reporting by people.

 >>>That the great majority of UFO reports are found to be IFOs says
 >>>volumes about the reliability of witness testimony.

 >>Or, don't you give much credence to the run of the mill
 >>Nocturnal Lights? If not, why not?

 >Bob, I know you have trouble reading! I have never said any such
 >thing about night lights, or any other things, which have
 >little or no value in determining if something unique is going
 >on. These observations are of little value, as they contain
 >little information.

Jan:

Thank you for explaining about NL's. Since I raised the issue of
whether you think they matter, I wasn't putting any words into
your mouth.

 >One would be interested in objects of at least the angular-size
 >of the full moon, which are observed which are described by more
 >than one observer, and observed for over three minutes. That is
 >the ideal threshold.


Agreed.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                   Re: Trindade Isle Witnesses - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:59:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:43:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Isle Witnesses - Maccabee


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:24:45 +0000
 >Subject: Trindade Isle Witnesses


 >This is quoted from O Jornal (Rio de Janeiro), Feb. 21, 1958
 >[Translation and other important details on the case provided to
 >me by Dr. Olavo Fontes in a letter dated March 15, 1958]:


 >"The sighting...scared all who sighted it. There was even an
 >officer who was so terrorized that [he] was found trembling and
 >mumbling meaningless words--entirely out of his mind. The saucer
 >was seen simultaneously by almost everybody and caused a
t>remendous running and confusion aboard--everybody trying to see
 >the strange object."

 >[Sounds like dozens of witnesses to me since other sources
 >provide data about how many were on board. - R.H.]

<snip>

 >Another translation found in my files is from O Diario de Sao
 >Paulo, Feb. 21, 1958, confirming the "more than 100" witnesses
 >on deck.

 >.To those who previously made jibes about my "moral certainty">
 >hat witness names and statements were on record, I say
 >Pthfffffft! I was, after all, a contemporary investigator of the
 >case who pressed for complete documentation in a thorough-going
 >investigation, something the armchair Pelicanists never bother
 >doing. They prefer to pick and snipe and quibble many years
 >after the fact and demand more evidence. There is a lot more in
 >my file on the case, but that's enough for now. Q.E.D.
<

Thanks for backing up your moral certainty with documentary
certainty!!!

Now we can get to the crux of the matter:  was it a bird or a
plane or "superman" that flew by?

I wonder if AJ could invterview any of the still-living
witnesses or, better yet, get a release of the original
Brazilian gov't documentation.







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                          Filer's Files #29 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:04:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:46:22 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #29 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #29-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
July 17, 2002,  Majorstar@aol.com
Webmaster: Chuck Warren  http://.www.filersfiles.com

UFO SIGHTINGS INCREASE: Connecticut fast lightspotted, New
Jersey phantom train, Pennsylvania lights, Georgia sphere seen
by pilot, Florida ruby light, Wisconsin lights, Illinois Flying
triangle, Iowa cylinder also disc chased by fighters, New Mexico
cylinders, Oregon fast moving disk, Washington lights, Canadian
orbs, Mexican UFO at Mt. Popo, Argentina mutilations continue,
Sri Lanka disks. Scientists now say there could be 30 billion
Earths.  My assumption is we are not alone.

CIA H. Marshall Chadwell Scientific Director of the CIA stated,
"At this time the reports of incidents convince us that there is
something going on that must have immediate attention.
Sightings of unexplained objects at high altitudes and traveling
at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense
installations are of such nature that they are not attributable
to natural phenomena or known types of vehicles. 1952

ITS GETTING CROWDED 30 BILLION EARTH-LIKE EXOPLANETS

Astronomers now think there might be as many as 30 billion
earth-like planets within our own Milky Way galaxy.  If they're
right, it is very likely our civilization is not the only one in
the universe.  The recent discovery of a Jupiter-sized planet in
its own solar system sets the count of candidates to a
symbolically important total of 100 extrasolar planets.
Although we won't know for sure until the next generation of
space-based telescopes are in place, scientists are now willing
to speculate that earth -- sized planets may be as common as the
gas giants we already observe.  These large planets provide
protection from asteroids for the protection of life on Earth
size planets.  Virtually all the 1,000 stars out to about 100
light-years distant have been surveyed and about 10% have been
found to possess planetary systems.  Thanks to the Electric
Warrior and BBC -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2078000/2078507
.stm  (BBC)

ASSUMPTION: IS THAT 'ET' IS VISITING US

If there are 30 billion Earth like planets, we can make the
assumption that some civilizations are advanced enough for space
travel.  It is logical to assume some have visited Earth.
Therefore, we must look for evidence of their visitation and
interaction with humans.  These Files weekly point out sightings
by people on the ground and flying aircrews, but the key
evidence for ET visiting Earth should be first picked up by
satellites searching the heavens.  These UFOs known as Fast
Walkers or uncorrelated targets are being picked up on a regular
basis by our satellites.

EARTH IS A REFUELING STATION:  Often these lights do not appear
as full size space ships.  They may only indicate the propulsion
system or running lights of the craft.  Earth may be a kind of
Disneyland where space travelers stop for entertainment, rest,
relaxation, food, water and refueling.  There is evidence for
alien bases.  Often stories are related where high speed lights
zoom in from space and crash into bodies of water.  Some hover
above fresh water lakes or reservoirs.  Then the small lights
suddenly expand to hundreds of times their size and become full
size space ships.  After taking on water the spaceships again
diminish in size and fly off.  Others launch small craft usually
disc shaped to forage for food, conduct research, and apparently
obtain entertainment and minerals.

The evidence indicates they may have been coming to Earth for
thousands of years bringing DNA, seeds and animals, changing the
landscape, even providing humans with greater intellect, perhaps
bringing a higher standard of morality.  Jeff Challender has
released his new video that examines NASA's  Space Shuttle
encounters with anomalous objects.  The video features 102
events captured from ten different shuttle flights.  Here is
evidence for scientists to study for the reality of UFOs
circling our planet.  Any open minded person can see the
anomalous objects coming in from space and entering the
atmosphere and darting around the Earth.  The objects often move
at thousands of miles per hour and suddenly stop over
thunderstorms and appear to take on energy.  The American people
are funding NASA, it only seems fair that they should testify in
front of Congress and show their own films and explain the
anomalous objects.  Dan Golden former NASA Director would be an
ideal witness.  I would certainly support NASA, if it was open
with the American public concerning these objects.  Many
astronauts and cosmonauts are already talking.

Editor's Note: This and other tapes will be shown in the Air
Victory Museum UFO exhibit in Medford, New Jersey.

SCIENCE HAS RESPONSIBILITY: Probably the greatest mathematician
of our time is Nobel Prize winner John Nash who was played by
Russel Crowe in the movie a "A Beautiful Mind."  In the climax
of the picture that won four academy awards, Nash said in his
acceptance speech.

"I've always believed in numbers, the equation, logic will lead
to reason.  After a lifetime of such pursuit I ask what truth is
logic, who decides reason.  My quest has taken me to the
physical, the metaphysical, the delusional and back and I have
made the most important discovery of my career, the most
important discovery of my life.  It is only in the mysterious
equations of love that any logical reasons can be found.  I'm
only here tonight because of my wife,  she is the reason I am.
She is all my reasons."  Nobel Prize Ceremony Stockholm 1994.

Mathematically it is likely there are other civilizations in
space.  What is the most important mathematical information
other civilizations could bring to Earth?  Perhaps their message
is God is Love and your nobody unless somebody loves you?  Only
interpretation of facts by science without love is disaster.

RUSSIA PROPOSES SENDING MEN TO MARS

MOSCOW -- Russian space officials proposed to send a six-person
team to Mars by the year 2015.  Russia's space program hopes to
work closely with NASA and the European Space Agency to build
two spaceships capable of transporting the crew to Mars,
supporting for up to two months and safely bringing them home,
said Nikolai Anfimov, head of the Central Research Institute of
Machine-Building.  The roughly 440-day trip is expected to cost
about $20 billion.  The so called, "Mars curse," began when the
Soviet Union kicked off Mars exploration in 1960 by launching
two unmanned spacecraft four days apart, but both failed even to
make it as far as Earth's orbit.  One resulted in an engine
explosion that scattered debris and contamination over the
Baikonur launch pad in one of the worst accidents in Soviet
space history. That was followed by repeated attempts and often
repeated disappointment. The bad luck for Russia continued on
Nov. 16, 1996, when the Russians launched an ambitious $300
million spacecraft, Mars 96, which they hoped would prove to the
world that despite their economic struggles after the Soviet
breakup, they could still run a first-rate space program.  Mars
96 suffered an engine failure just after launch and crashed into
the Pacific Ocean.  Russia has never stopped planning to reach
Mars."  NASA's Mars program, plagued by its own series of
setbacks, got back on track earlier this year when the unmanned
Mars Odyssey spacecraft found large amounts of water on Mars.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29564-
2002Jul5.html

CONNECTICUT MOVING BIG STAR

SOUTHINGTON -- On July 10, 2002, my brother and I saw something
that we both had never seen before.  My brother is 11 and I am
14.  When we were swimming in our pool at 9:55 PM, and noticed
how many planes there were in the sky.  We counted four in about
6 minutes, then after a while we saw what appeared to be a very
big white star.  It started off like it was just rising. at this
point I sent my brother in for the camera, but by the time he
got out the so called star went flying at the speed a little
faster than a plane.  It flew northwest and out off sight and
appeared to be "flying" at the same level as the airplanes.  My
brother Nolan said it was a spacecraft right after we saw it
leave.  I went up stairs to change into my PJs and I found my
current event school papers that was about you.  Thanks to Bryan
and Nolan Rickard,  Fireball609@cox.net.

Editor's Note: Bryan, although your case needs further
investigation, it could have been a bright landing light or if
it moved faster than a plane it was possibly a UFO.

NEW JERSEY PHANTOM TRAIN

ATSION LAKE -- Evelyn Galson reports that several people riding
in cars near Route 206 have spotted a single light similar to a
locomotive's head light off in the distance on Wednesdays, June
26, and July 3, 2002.  There is an abandoned rail line in the
area that parallels the road.  Suddenly the light appears to
move down the track towards the cars.  The witnesses are
terrified by the huge light that now moves away from the tracks
and hovers just above their cars.  Frightened by the closeness
of the giant light that seems only a few feet from the roof of
the car the occupants report driving at high speeds to get away
from the light.  The light remains in close proximity to the
cars during the high speed chase.  Finally, the light seems to
lose interest and departs.  This general area has a long history
of UFO reports.

PENNSYLVANIA FLYING BRIGHT LIGHT

Reading -- Kathy Noll reports, "I was at my brother's house for
Father's Day on June 16, 2002, standing in the yard facing west
at 11:00 PM, when I saw a bright white light in the sky."  It
was twice the size of Venus and moved from side to side and up
and down, which could NOT have been an airplane.  Then it
suddenly disappeared. I drove around a bit in my car searching
the sky but there was no sign of it.  I have had computer
problems ever since.  Thanks to Kathy Noll.

GEORGIA SILVER SPHERE SIGHTED BY PILOT

ATLANTA -- On May 18, 2002, at about 2:30 PM, a former major
airline pilot was sitting in his yard enjoying the clear sunny
weather and observed a glint in the northwest sky.  Upon closer
examination, he saw a flying ball bearing or silver sphere.  It
was traveling "tremendously fast" and was easily observed
against the clear blue sky.  It was the size of a BB at arm's
length.  His observation lasted through 50 degrees horizontally
in about seven seconds.  The object flew a straight line course
with no stops, starts or zigzags.  Witness said that he
estimated that the craft would have traveled horizon to horizon
in about 20 seconds.  The witness added that the speed indicated
to him it was not any type of balloon or other craft with which
he is familiar (keep in mind that the witness was an airline
pilot for 24 years).  Altitude estimation was not easy, but he
stated that it appeared to possibly be above the normal Atlanta
area commercial traffic.  The witness stated that he was still
alert to such events due to the fact that other 'unknowns' had
been encountered during his flying career.  A phone conversation
with this witness confirmed the details he provided in his
initial email.  This case has been assigned for further inquiry
to Mark Kravitz of Marietta Georgia.  Thanks to Tom Sheets
MUFONGA State Director.

FLORIDA RED RUBY LIGHT

GULF BREEZE -- Don Ware reports, "I got a phone report on July
7, 2002, of a UFO sighting over the sound in Gulf Breeze.  At
8:15 a ruby red light 1/4 the size of the witnesses thumbnail
came down from a stormy sky to the sound and was not seen after
it went behind a boathouse.  This was right after a strange
storm cloud seemed to reverse direction.  Don will speaking at
the IUFOC Convention starting February 2, on "Planet X:  A
Philosophical View."  Thanks to Lt. Col. Don Ware USAF ret.

WISCONSIN TWO BRIGHT LIGHTS

BAYFIELD, MASON COUNTY -- Alan A. reports that on July 2, 2002,
there was a dog barking a few miles away on a clear night at
3:32 AM.  I was driving up the long driveway and to the north
one star seemed to be brighter then the others.  I know a little
about stars, so I thought that it might be Jupiter, even though
it looked too low in the sky.  I parked my truck and looked up
another time, and it was not there, I looked down for a second
and looked back up and there it was.  It was really bright and
much closer than it was the first time.  It was not moving, but
it was now about 75 yards away, and 50 yards above the tree's.
The light was white, at first I thought it might be a light from
a helicopter, but it was not making any noise, and it was not
moving.  Then a second brighter light came on right next to the
other one.  I was amazed when all of a sudden it went out.

DUNDEE -- Danny N. reports, "I was on the public fishing pier at
the Long Lake Campground on July 14, 2002, and observed a large
sphere with green, blue and possibly red lights spaced evenly on
it at 4:00 AM. It was high in the sky and moved slowly to the
east. I could see several white blinking lights, although they
were faded in color and they were some distance away from me. I
had a nibble on my rod so I tended to that and when I looked up
that object was gone but there was another object moving in the
same direction. It was triangular in shape and had lights in
rows of 1,3,5,7 in red, orange, and yellow colors. It was high
in the sky and it also moved slowly to the east.  Thanks to
UFOwisconsin. http://www.ufowisconsin.com

ILLINOIS LIGHT AND HOVERING FLYING TRIANGLE

EVANSTON -- On June 18, 2002, the witness saw a white light
floated over a baseball field for five minutes before he told
someone else to pay attention.  We looked across the entire sky
at 9:15 PM, to make sure it wasn't any type of reflection.  The
circular object continued to float for ten more minutes before
it started to drift away. The white lights were very bright and
did not flash or blink and were much larger than an aircraft.

ROCKFORD -- On June 30, 2002, the witness was on his way to bed
when he looked out the patio door and saw four lights in the
sky.  Three of the lights were white and bright and formed a
flying triangle longer than wide.  There was one light on each
corner.  A red light was in the middle towards the back.  The
object was heading northeast in a slightly circling line of
travel moving about 30 mph.  Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

IOWA TEN UFOs FLY OVER

COUNCIL BLUFF -- A copier technician and friend on July 6, 2002,
reports seeing ten or more UFOs flying above he backyard deck on
Hartman Street from 10:16 to 10:30 PM. The UFOs were flying west
and almost looked like they were going to run into each other
but did not. The craft were at high altitude an estimated 30,000
feet.  There was a commercial jet aircraft with flashing lights,
but it did not seem to notice the UFO lights. The UFOs moved at
a very fast pace in a straight line between each other.  They
look like very bright lights, that looks like a star moving
across the sky.  They had the brightness of an on coming train.
Just picture a train coming down the track at night. Thanks to
Stefan Duncan  http://www.stefanduncangallery.com  and
http://www.aufon.com

OKLAHOMA CYLINDER AND DISC CHASED

TULSA -- Reggie Borges Tulsa World staff writer reports,
Henryetta residents felt tremors after seeing a large missile
like object fly over on July 6, 2002, at 7:00 PM.  Twenty people
reported the tremors to the police after Shirley Brown and
friends reported seeing the strange craft.  The cylinder could
have been some kind of space debris that later crashed.

BARTLESVILLE -- On July 10, 2002, my wife called me from where
she works and asked me to please go outside and crank up the
umbrellas she had positioned over her new plants to protect them
from the 100 degree heat we had here today.  I was outside
cranking up the second umbrella around 1:30 PM and I looked in
time to see a fast moving disc shaped object flying low to the
northeast with two low zooming US fighter jets not too far
behind it. Right after they passed by a giant sonic boom
occurred that rattled everything so much even the trees quaked.
When I came into the house a couple pictures and a mirror had
fallen off the walls.  I saw just a few minutes ago a news
report saying that a blast was felt as far away as Tyro Kansas.
A good 40 minute drive from here.  The news says they don't yet
know the cause of the blast, but I can tell you what it was. It
was two jets in hot pursuit of something flying dangerously low
for a populated area in my opinion. Thanks to STR---
LGTFUT@cableone.net

NEW MEXICO CYLINDER

SOCORRO -- On June 19, 2002, two lighted objects showed
themselves for nearly one hour. Two witnesses saw two sets of
lights each having six lights in a side by side formation moving
northward at about twenty-thousand feet up in the vicinity of
the "Trinity" site where the first atomic bomb was exploded.
They stayed in plain site long enough to call the police here in
Socorro, but instead of taking a report, the dispatcher wanted
to 'send 'a car around to talk to me.  Lights were going on and
off at about six-second intervals in unison on both crafts, with
a speed going from slow to fast and back all during this time,
this went on for most of the sighting time, until the lights
just went out. Several minutes later they reappeared now
slightly west of the original position, now going south until
they disappeared.  I went to police station next day, they gave
me a weird look, and said it "was a weather balloon" from
Alamogordo.  Thanks to Peter Davenport.

NEVADA RADIO INTERFERENCE

MERCURY -- The exceptionally qualified witnesses were traveling
in a two car convoy on Highway 95 east of Mercury, NV on both
June 23 and 26, 2002, using 14 channel handheld radios, for
communication between vehicles.  On both the trip north and on
the return trip south we noticed very strong broadband radio
interference with both our radios for a period of tens of
minutes 30 miles east of Area 51.  I have tested these radios
and they break the preset squelch at a distance of about 2
miles, broadcasting an estimated 500 mw at roughly 440 MHz.  The
interference we observed broke the squelch many times on the
radios.  If the distance between us and the transmitting antenna
was 30 miles, the transmitter would have been transmitting at
least 5 kW in a narrow band of one channel.  I observed that the
interference occurred in all 14 bands of our radios, so this
would indicated a broadband transmission of at least 70 kW to
achieve this phenomenon.  The total power from the transmitter
could be much higher, depending on the bandwidth.  It is well
known that typical military broadband radios transmit only a few
watts or less.  The only use I know of for very high power
broadband radio transmissions is to transmit over extreme
distances.  I once calculated that I could transmit a receivable
signal over 2 million miles (the distance to Mars at close
approach) with only a few hundred milliwatt's of output power if
I used a broad bandwidth of 10 MHz.  I cannot guess what would
require the kind of broadband power that I observed near Area
51.  Thanks to NUFORC

OREGON FAST MOVING DISK

ST. HELEN'S --On June 26, 2002, the witness woke up around 3:00
AM, and looked out the bedroom window and saw an object that
measured about 1/16th of an inch, eight inches higher than my
nine foot arborvitae hedge, which is ten feet from the house.
The object first caught my eye as a white light, speeding left
to right.  It stopped and I could see what appeared to be white
lights rotating around the disk like bottom. Then fifteen
seconds later, it moved quite rapidly about four inches to the
right and stopped.  After thirty seconds it moved rapidly right
to its original position. This was repeated four times. I
watched for fifteen minutes.

WASHINGTON TWO  FLYING TRIANGLES

MABTON -- The two objects flew very slowly and came towards us
in a southwest direction on June 26, 2002.  As they came closer
at 10:50 PM, we saw four lights on each object with two lights
in the center close together, and two on the edges.  They made a
very low and quiet rumble as it came closer.  After ten minutes
it turned northeast and I saw three green lights on the back of
both objects with a flashing light on the right side. Thanks to
NUFORC.

SPOKANE -- The witness reports seeing a strange light many times
over the last year and half.  On June 16, 2002, the light was
seen close to my house at 10:00 PM, and is much brighter than
the stars. It moves and hovers.  I watched last night for over
and hour before it faded away.  On one occasion last October I
saw a craft right over my house, travel very slowly to tree
line, meet with another light, about a half mile from my house
and hover there for less than an hour.  When it was over my
house it was blinking red and white.  When it is at a distance,
last evening for example, it is a bright white light.  I live
south of Spokane, just west and north of Spangle.  I live on 10
acres in the open and have always noticed this light to the west
of me.  Editor's Note: A judge has also seen these lights and
taken numerous photographs.

CANADA LAKE ONTARIO UFO BASE?

TORONTO -- Sue Darroch writes thank you for continuing to put
out Filer's Files.  It is very informative!  We agree with your
observations, that we do have several reports involving the lake
that include submerging unknowns.  I personally believe it is
some sort of "UFO hotspot."  I am 35 and have had two UFO
sightings of my own -- eleven years apart and one at fairly
close range that involved Lake Ontario and both were in close
proximity to a nuclear generating station.  One of these
sightings was investigated by MUFON.  A great book on the
subject of Lake Ontario sightings is "Gateway To Oblivion" by
the late Hugh Cochrane.

MUSKOKA -- On July 6, 2002, a couple had a sighting at 9:30 PM,
while cruising on the lake they saw a very bright light off the
port side of the boat in a westerly direction, about 35 degrees
off the horizon.  The witness reported, "I realized it was
moving in the same direction as us at about the same speed
passing some treetops.  I sped up the boat to about 30 mph and
sure enough the lighted object did the same thing, just enough
to stay with us.  My wife and I were amazed that it reacted. Was
it a fluke? We slowed right down again to almost a stop and it
did the same. I sped up and turned 180 degrees and watched it
turn the same way in the same direction.  It banked in the turn
as opposed to an instant change of direction.  I came to a stop
and turned the lights out.  It sat in the sky in one spot.  I
couldn't leave the lights off too long because another boat was
coming along and passed me 200 feet off my starboard side.  I
thought the light might then pick up the other boat but it
stayed still.  My wife was feeling spooked so we decided to head
back to the cottage.  During this 5 minute trip our friend
stayed with us. We tied up the boat and the object drifted
slowly out of our site over the trees. Thanks to Sue Darroch
sue@pararesearchers.org  Para-Researchers Of Ontario
http://www.pararesearchers.org

Jennifer Jarvis of ORBWATCH has regular watches over the lake.
Historical documents on her web site claim the orbs have been
there for over 200 years.  The "Quebec Gazette," of the 22nd
December 1791, contains a letter giving an account of a violent
earthquake that occurred on the 6th at Bay St. Paul and relating
the fact that there were thirty shocks in one day.  On the 17th,
about five o'clock in the evening, "a globe of fire appearing to
the eye of the size of a 48-pound cannon ball was observed in
the sky coming from the northeast, disappearing in its
perpendicular descent above St. Paul's Bay, after bursting with
an explosion."  This strange "great light" which Dr. Nooth
observed on the evening of the 23rd may have been a repetition
of the "globe of fire" of the 15th.  See
http://www.orbwatch.com.

SURREY, BC -- On June 20, 2002, the witness was out on his
apartment balcony at 6:30 PM using his phone when he spotted a
disc shaped craft that was silver on top, with a darker bottom.
He grabbed his field glasses but was unable to detect a cupola
on the craft. The sky was clear and he estimated that the UFO
was about 3000' from him at an altitude of 500.' It was hovering
and moving slowly S.S.E. when he first saw it. He watched it
move behind a house and finally lost it from view when it headed
south and disappeared behind some trees. Total viewing time 3
minutes. During the viewing period he had time to phone Terry
Tibando, Vancouver Working Group Coordinator for CSETI (Center
for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence) -- in Port Moody
describing what he was watching. Thanks to Life Boat News,
http://www.lifeboatnews.com%20willthomas@telus.net/index.html

ERIN TOWNSHIP, ONTARIO -- Crop Watch 2002, received a report of
odd formation of possible 'symbols' in a wheat field found on
July 13, 2002, by a local resident.  The symbols are 60 meters
(200 feet) long; difficult to tell specific shapes as only
observed from ground.  Also other very small markings are nearby
with a symbols 3 to 4.5 meters (10 to 15 feet) in size, with the
wheat stalks flattened in overlapping layers, with some stalks
bent over.  There are numerous bent and swollen nodes on stalks,
about 1.5 times normal size.  This is the sixth report for 2002.

MEXICO A CIRCULAR UFO WAS SEEN FLYING BELOW VOLCANO

MT. POPOCATP=C9TL -- From watching the online webcam, At 12:32
GMT, on June 26, 2002, a circular reflective object crossed just
up the main slope of Mt. Popo. It appeared to be glowing, just
prior to sunrise. The address for the camera is at
http://www.messenia.com/links/webcam/asp/popocatepetl.asp

PERU AND MEXICO CONTACTEES CLAIM ET LOOKS LIKE US

MIAMI -- Susan "Sunset" Cerdan writes, "We had a wonderful
meeting with a representative of Jerry Wills, the contactee who
just returned from a year's stay in Peru.  I talked to Jerry on
the phone and he says the aliens are everywhere in that country,
in Cusco, Lima, Machu Pichu, all over!  It almost sounds like
the same things that are going on in Tepoztlan, Mexico with
contact Carlos Diaz, he tells us the aliens (who look like you
and me, are all over Tepoztlan, just as they are in Peru.  Bill
Jones, a medical intuitive was here for our last meeting to tell
us about the workshop Jerry will be teaching here on July 13,
2002, in Lantana, FL.  The workshop will be, "An Advanced
Healing Medical Intuitive Training". Jerry will be teaching
things he has learned from his contact with the aliens.  For
further information contact Bill Jones at billstarfish@aol.com
and Susan Cerdan at the FURST Group Vero Beach, FL

ARGENTINA MUTILATIONS CONTINUE:

COLON -- Semanario Col=F3n reports on July 12, 2002, that bovine,
sporting non-traditional injuries, was found in a pasture.  It
was mutilated and this time cattle rustlers were not to blame.
The government drafted an official report blaming the shy red-
muzzled mouse.  By comparison, popular tradition suggests the
Chupacabras or aliens.  Forti, a rancher from Col=F3n had the
fright of his life when he found his bovine with strange
mutilations in his pasture.  The parameters followed by the
alleged mice in causing the wounds are identical to the ones
repeated in hundreds of cases: precise cuts on the chest, the
tongue extracted with admirable precision and the absence of
genitalia.

ENTRE RIOS Province -- In the past two weeks, "strange low-
altitude maneuvering lights' were seen.  Saturday night, a
resident of Parana filmed 15 lights which spun around in circles
for ten minutes.  The strangest case involved police officers in
two squad cars at Routes 39 and 6.  The officers saw a powerful
light make maneuvers July 1st. I t approached the squad cars,
producing "sparks similar to those of a photographer's flash"--a
colorful spectacle full of "admirable" color bursts.   At a
given moment, the light pulled back and the vehicles stopped
operating.  The engines wouldn't turn over and the lights were
off.  Half an hour later, after the lights left, the police
siren turned on "all of a sudden" and the engines responded to
the ignition.  The five occupants of both Renault 19 vehicles
could find no explanation for what happened.  The law
enforcement personnel reached for their side arms, but the
strange light was not impressed.

ESTEBAN ECHEVERRIA -- Residents notified the Squad Car Command
last night after they saw strange lights changing colors and
landing on the edge of the lagoon.  Other lights seemed to land
in the Monte Brown area and also in the proximity of the Fish
and Nautical Club, where guests at a dinner held in the honor of
racing fans caused the number of eyewitnesses to be even larger.
Thousands of gallons of water are reported missing from tanks
and reservoirs over night.  Thanks to Scott Corrales, Institute
of Hispanic Ufology Translation (C) 2002 and lornis1@juno.com.

SRI LANKA OBSERVERS CONFIRMING SRI LANKA UFO

"Sri Lankan scientists say blue-white light UFOs reported by
hundreds of villagers have been confirmed by a team of
observers.  A mysterious blue ball was first seen over
historical ruins at Dimbulagala.  Professor Chandana Jayaratne,
an astrophysicist at the University of Colombo say, "The V-
shaped beam of light travels at high-speed between locations and
makes a buzzing noise similar to a bee."  We cannot consider
these stories as being fabricated.  The light beam unlike any
other we have seen before -- rotated, suddenly disappear and
reappear a few seconds later 350 meters away.  "We camped near
the Parakrama Samudraya and an intense light beam emitting a 'V'
came from the jungle."  "It could change its direction to avoid
colliding with trees and for three days we observed the same
UFO."  Daily News - Rashomi Silva. Thanks to FarShores
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/index.htm

NASA, AND IT'S SPACE ENCOUNTERS

Jeff Challender has released the new video "What Is the Truth?".
The second in a series of videos examining NASA and its space
encounters with anomalous objects.  The video features 102
events captured from 10 different shuttle flights.  These events
were culled from over 1400 hours raw footage of live NASA
broadcast, recorded between October 2000 and April 2002.  please
specify  vhs ($25), or dvd ($30).  Available in ntsc, or pal.
Send orders to: Jeff Challender 2768 Mendel Way Sacramento, CA
95833-2011

THE UFO STORE -- Your purchases at the UFO Store will help pay
for the UFO display at the Air Victory Museum.  Go for the
widest selection of UFO books, CDs, and videos on the net at:
http://www.filersfiles.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL.  A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com.  Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post the complete files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue that the item appeared.  These reports
and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.
Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential.  CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer










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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 17

                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:54:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:49:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:54:20 -0400

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:00:57 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 ><snip>

 >>Picketing works. People picketing for other causes are not seen
 >>as discrediting themselves because they take to the streets with
 >>signs. Picketing is value-neutral. The only problem with
 >>picketing is that in the field of UFOlogy and other important
 >>causes which are ignored by the powers that be, is that it isn't
 >>done nearly enough.

 >Being a child of the 60s, I'm quite familiar with how
 >demonstrations and picketting can work. (I think we're really
 >taking about a "demonstration", but I don't want to get into a
 >major discussion of the difference.) If you can get 10 to 15
 >thousand people to demonstrate in support of UFO research and
 >such, then you'll probably get the media attention you're
 >looking for. But, to get only 15 to 20 people out on the street
 >carrying signs is laughable. That shows LACK of support for the
 >effort, and certainly won't inspire others to join in
 >(regardless of their beliefs).

 >I suppose if you really want to picket (i.e. block entrances and
 >roadways to make a point and gain attention), then you'll get
 >more publicity with just a few people. But, I'm not sure that
 >it's the type of publicity that would helpful and I believe few
 >in this genre are willing to spend a night in jail for thier
 >beliefs.

Well, the alternative is to submit polite letters to the editor
and wait another 55 years.

 >>The main problem is the suppression of UFO issues and the
 >>consistent ending of the few UFO items with something to
 >>discredit, such as a crack about "little green men", or a
 >>condescending tone and mannerisms, or the trusty old skeptic's
 >>statement that UFOs can't be spacecraft because you can't travel
 >>faster than light (even though French scientist Alain Aspect
 >>showed that at least one signal type can.)

 >It's a cycle that will be hard to break. The problem is that
 >many in the UFO community are easy targets for criticism from
 >both skeptics and researchers.

One way to become less of an easy target is for those who are
active in ufology to keep a cumulative list of barbs, and
compose good solid comebacks for each barb. And share these
comebacks with others who are active. You'd be surprised how
easy it is, with some homework and rehearsal, to become a hard-
to-criticize activist this way.

Personal barbs (as from Dr. Nickell to Dr. Friedman) - just
reply "I'll be glad to discuss UFO evidence with you" ... and
then be silent. Not always easy, but much easier if you mentally
rehearse your next encounters at times you are not face to face.

I work mostly in another field of activism which is at least
equally, if not more, prone to ridicule by the authorities than
Ufology. Yet I find, when I go out on the picket site and talk
to people, show them that I'm a living being who is not 'foaming
at the mouth' and who can put a sentence together that makes
sense, I can make progress in bringing the public up to speed.

What limits me is that this other cause usually includes having
one's health destroyed, so that I can only do about 90 minutes a
day now, down from three hours a day three years ago. And no
other member of this other cause support group will take up a
picket sign on a regular basis.

What ufologists and UFO truth seeking supporters would be amazed
at is how perceptive and intelligent and fair, the "man in the
street" really is. It is not that difficult to reach people if
you are willing to go out and meet them face to face.

In three years of picketing, I get maybe one dart per day from
someone who obviously is closed minded. Big deal. There are
perhaps 3,000 people who pass my picket site in a 90 minute
session. I might get one stop every 15 minutes, and those who
stop and talk are not ridiculing the cause at all. At least half
thank or congratulate me for getting the important information
out to the public.

Some who toss a 'dart' are obviously some kind of disinformation
people. Again, big deal. Either an issue is extremely important,
or it's not. If it is, then you don't worry about ridicule.

 >>>>Interviewing Stephen Bassett hardly requires a "major
 >>>>investigation".

 >>>Bassett had indicated that the Washington Post has already
 >>>contacted him about an interview, but I don't know if it has
 >>>taken place. My comment related to the implication that the
 >>>Washington Post should fully investigate the UFO phenomenon and
 >>>coverup of information, which IMO wouldn't happen unless there
 >>>is a major event that triggers it.

 >>That's for sure. There are some papers like the San Jose Mercury
 >>News which do investigative reporting projects, though.

 >The Washington Post does some investigative reporting when there
 >is a hard news angle to follow. Has the San Jose Mercury done
 >any investigative reports on UFOs or the UFO coverup? If not,
 >what do you think the chances are?

Their big one that flopped (and I think they were perfectly
right anyway) was a story on CIA peddling of drugs to finance
black operations, reported by Gary Webb, who was let go after
some of the facts in the article were called incorrect by
government. I think they would be less likely now, but again,
several years have passed since that article.

I don't subscribe so I don't know their stance on UFOs.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/

...if anyone wants to check them out. Their web address has
changed, it was:

http://www.sjmercury.com

...and this change may indicate a change in ownership, possibly
meaning "new ball game".

Of course, we also know the Washington Times is UFO friendly.
What about a UFOlogist offering to write a serious article or
series for them, with a staff reporter acting as liaison and
checker of the validity of the references submitted?

With NASA's stop-and-start new openness, as related by Richard
Hoagland last weekend, and Seth Shostak's statement that he
expects ET contact in 25 years, maybe this is the time to try
once more?


Eleanor White








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 17

                    E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:03:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:50:53 -0400
Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?


Hi Everyone!

If you enter your own best guesses for each one of the eight
variables in the so-called Drake Equation, you will come up with
N, the number of intelligent civilizations able to communicate
with each other within our own galaxy. Since our Milky Way
galaxy contains (according to the most recent estimates) about
400 billion stars, even very conservative estimates for N can be
in the order of thousands or even 100s of millions. According to
the two authors of the new book 'Rare Earth', N likely is 1
making us a unique creation in the universe.

If you would like to follow the current ongoing five-part debate
related to what some scientists and other "experts" currently
have to say about the existence of E.T.s in our galaxy, check
out the web site below.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/rare_earth_2_020717.html

On November 30 of last year I spoke with astronomer Seth Shostak
of The SETI Institute during his visit to York University and
asked him further questions about his prediction that by 2020 we
can expect to have detected intelligent E.T.s using their new
SETI radiotelescope. Below are Shostak's reasons for this
prediction as written by York University's 'Gazette' newspaper
(see URL below for the complete text).

"In summing up, Shostak said many researchers believe they will
receive an ET signal by 2020. He explained: with private funds,
the SETI Institute is building the Allen telescope made of 350
receiving dishes, each about six metres in diameter, that
they'll be able to use around the clock throughout the year. It
will be able to map galaxies and check at least three stars at a
time and listen to 200 million channels at once - which is 100
times faster than what is happening currently."

"By the year 2006 it will have checked 1,000 stars. By 2020 it
will have scanned several million nearby stars at which time,
applying a nominal value of N (the number of broadcasting
civilizations), chances are it will have found an ET signal."

http://www.yorku.ca/ycom/gazette/past/archive/2002/012302/issue.htm#3

As a student of the UFO phenomena I believe contact with E.T.s
has already been made and we may event have documented proof
too. This proof is the Bible. For example, only advanced E.T.
beings who are outside of space-time can know all about the past
and predict future with 100 accuracy and also be able to teach
us absolute truths, including physics (eg. in the 12th century
rabbi Moses ben Nachman, also known as Nachmanides, inferred
from his studies of Genesis 1 that our universe has ten
dimensions just as string theory - and Wilbert B. Smith - eight
centuries later was proposed to explain our still very
mysterious world).

Nick Balaskas








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   Jul > Jul 17

             Re: Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War' - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:31:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:52:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War' - Hebert


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:59:21 +0200
 >Subject: Asteroids 'Could Trigger Nuclear War'

<snip>

 >Although the US has its own sophisticated military satellites
 >which can detect launches and detonations of weapons and
 >asteroid explosions, General Worden said that he and other
 >experts would like to see a new warning centre established which
 >would gather information on asteroid explosions and make it
 >available to all governments.

 >It is hoped that the shared information would prevent a disaster
 >occurring, and a study looking at the possibility of such a
 >centre is now reportedly being developed in the US Defense
 >Department.

This is rich.

I can see it now, US to any foreign country: "Just ignore that
one... it was only an asteroid. No, asteroids do not stop, hover
and make right-angle turns.  It was just your imagination."

Or maybe they are having problems distinguishing the real ones
from the fakes or which ones are ours and which are not.  It
must be really crowded up there. (ROFL)

A. Hebert








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               Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:24:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:31:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Speiser


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:54:20 -0400

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:00:57 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >The Washington Post does some investigative reporting when there
 >is a hard news angle to follow. Has the San Jose Mercury done
 >any investigative reports on UFOs or the UFO coverup? If not,
 >what do you think the chances are?

I don't know if they've ever done an expose' on UFOs, but they
published the seminal work on the web of conspiracies collectively
known as "The Octopus."  Area 51 enters into that story rather
tangentially, and I believe they did cover that angle.  So I don't
think they're adverse to it, if there is something solid to follow
up on.

==JJS==







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               Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:13:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:53:42 -0400
Subject: Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel


Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington           July 17, 2002
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Martha J. Heil
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-0850)

RELEASE: 02-128

Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel Simpler

A "freeway" through the solar system resembling a vast array of
virtual winding tunnels and conduits around the Sun and planets,
discovered by an engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
Pasadena, Calif., can slash the amount of fuel needed for future
space missions.

Called the Interplanetary Superhighway, the system was
calculated by Martin Lo, who used his theory to design the
flight path for NASA's Genesis mission, which is currently using
this "freeway in space" on its mission to collect solar wind
particles for return to Earth.

Most missions are designed to take advantage of the way gravity
pulls on a spacecraft when it swings by a body such as a planet
or moon. Lo's theory mixes in another factor, the Sun's pull on
the planets or a planet's pull on its nearby moons. Forces from
many directions nearly cancel each other out, leaving paths
through the gravity fields in which spacecraft can travel.

Each planet and moon has five locations in space called Lagrange
points, where one body's gravity balances another's. Spacecraft
can orbit there while burning very little fuel. To find the
Interplanetary Superhighway, Lo mapped all the possible flight
paths among the Lagrange points, varying the distance the
spacecraft would go and how fast or slow it would travel. Like
threads twisted together to form a rope, the possible flight
paths formed tubes in space. Lo plans to map out these tubes for
the whole solar system.

Lo has turned the theory of the Interplanetary Superhighway into
a tool for mission design called "LTool," using models developed
at Purdue University, West Lafayette, Ind. The new LTool
designed the flight path for the Genesis mission, the first
space mission to use the theory of the Interplanetary
Superhighway. Genesis launched in August 2001.

The flight path was designed for the spacecraft to leave Earth
and travel to orbit the Lagrange point. After five loops around
this Lagrange point, the spacecraft will fall out of orbit
without any maneuvers and then loop around Earth to a Lagrange
point on the opposite side of the planet. Finally, it will
return to Earth's upper atmosphere to drop off its samples of
solar wind in the Utah desert, at the Air Force's Utah Testing
and Training Range.

"Genesis wouldn't need to use any fuel at all in a perfect
world," Lo said. "But since we can't control the many variables
that occur throughout the mission, we have to make some
corrections as Genesis completes its loops around a Lagrange
point of Earth. The savings on the fuel translates into a better
and cheaper mission."

"It has been exciting and challenging to develop this field. Our
work on the Genesis mission is definitely a high point," said
Kathleen Howell, co-creator of LTool, and a professor of
aeronautics and astronautics at Purdue. "The theory has been
known for some time, but this is the first time it has been
applied to a space mission."

  "For all missions going to a Lagrange point, LTool will speed
up computations," Lo said. "Designing the Genesis spacecraft's
flight path with traditional methods used to take eight weeks,
but now we can design a new flight path in less than a day -- we
have redesigned a whole mission in a week."

Lo envisions a place to construct and service science platforms
around one of the Moon's Lagrange points. Since the Lagrange
points are landmarks for the Interplanetary Superhighway,
spacecraft could easily be shunted to and from the station for
repair. A team at NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston, working
with the NASA Exploration Team (NEXT), proposes to someday use
the Interplanetary Superhighway for future human space missions.

"Lo's work has led to breakthroughs in simplifying mission
concepts for human and robotic exploration beyond low-Earth
orbit," said Doug Cooke, manager of the Advanced Development
office at Johnson. "These simplifications result in fewer space
vehicles needed for a broad range of mission options."

Lo's and Howell's work on the Interplanetary Superhighway for
space mission design was nominated for an annual Discover
Innovation Award by Discover magazine editors and an outside
panel of experts.

Spacecraft are not the only users of the Interplanetary
Superhighway: asteroids and comets are known to travel on it.
Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 collided with Jupiter when it took an
off-ramp toward the giant gas planet. Scientists think the
asteroid that killed the dinosaurs could have followed Genesis'
flight path -- an iridium deposit at the crash site shows the
asteroid traveled fairly slowly. Just what we might expect from
an asteroid on the Interplanetary Superhighway, Lo said.

JPL is managed for NASA by the California Institute of
Technology, Pasadena. For more information on Genesis, visit:
http://www.genesismission.org

                        - end -








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/17/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:51:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:56:01 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/17/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 64
July 17, 2002


**      ISOO'S LEONARD ON RETHINKING SECRECY POLICY
**      RUMSFELD MEMO ON LEAKS
**      FUNDING FOR CLASSIFIED INFO SHARING CUT
**      BACKGROUND INVESTIGATIONS: A WASTE OF TIME?


ISOO'S LEONARD ON RETHINKING SECRECY POLICY

"I firmly believe that the current information security regime
is a product of the industrial age and needs to be brought into
the information age."

So said J. William Leonard yesterday in his first public speech
as director of the Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO),
the executive branch agency that is responsible for oversight of
national security classification and declassification activity
government-wide.

In a thoughtful presentation before the National Classification
Management Society, Mr. Leonard spoke a number of home truths
and offered some insight into his approach to secrecy policy.
  For example:

"Secrecy is an essential tool in protecting national security...
[but] what makes our Nation great is not how well we can make
and keep secrets."  Rather, "Our ability to share and leverage
information is the source of American power and might in the
21st century."

"Oftentimes, the best security is accepting as a given the fact
that what you want to protect is or will become known to others
-- and planning your operations accordingly."

"I believe that oftentimes we rely on secrecy as a crutch to
compensate for shortcomings in other areas such as personnel
security, automated information systems controls, and just plain
day-to-day management."

The text of Mr. Leonard's July 16 speech (where these remarks
may be viewed in context) is available here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/ncms071602.html


RUMSFELD MEMO ON LEAKS

"The disclosure of classified information is damaging our
country's ability to stop terrorist acts and is putting American
lives at risk," according to a July 12 memo from Defense
Secretary Rumsfeld.

A CIA assessment appended to the memo noted that "Information
obtained from captured detainees has revealed that al-Qa'ida
operatives are extremely security conscious and have altered
their practices in response to what they have learned from the
press about our capabilities."

The Rumsfeld memo and CIA assessment, first reported by the Los
Angeles Times, are available here (in PDF format):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/dod071202.pdf

A largely platitudinous report from the House Intelligence
Committee on "Counterterrorism Intelligence Capabilities and
Performance Prior to 9-11," released today, urges the executive
branch to "prosecute leaks."  The report recommends as follows:
  "Devise a senior level mechanism for overseeing the
investigation and, where possible, the prosecution of willful
leakers."


FUNDING FOR CLASSIFIED INFO SHARING CUT

Although the House of Representatives recently passed the
Homeland Security Information Sharing Act to promote sharing of
classified security information with state and local officials,
a House Committee has moved to cut funding to support this kind
of intra- governmental communication from next year's budget.

The House Appropriations Committee this week eliminated $7
million that had been requested "to train state and local
personnel in the handling of classified and sensitive homeland
security data."

"The Committee believes that funding this effort in this account
is premature.  The directive for addressing sensitive homeland
security information has not been issued, the specific state and
local needs for training have not been determined, training
options have not been fully developed, and the portion of the
initiative aimed at ensuring that Federal agencies have
appropriate authorities is unknown."

The action was described in House Report 107-575 on the Treasury
Appropriations bill, dated July 15.  See excerpts here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/hrpt107-575.html


BACKGROUND INVESTIGATIONS: A WASTE OF TIME?

FBI background investigations of Presidential appointees have
become a mindless ritual as well as a waste of time and money,
argued former Reagan official Ken Adelman in a recent opinion
article.  Adelman noted that he had been subject to at least
four, and as many as six, full-field FBI investigations.

"During my interview with a polite agent, I was asked if I had
'ever' had contact with 'any foreign nationals.'  I explained
that, as a U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, yes, I did
have contact with foreign nationals.  In fact, many of them.
  Well, could I possibly list all such contacts?  When told that
would be impossible, the agent moved along.  'Where could I
locate this Mr.  Wolfowitz, whom you listed as a reference?' he
asked me."

See "Stop Sleuthing" by Ken Adelman, dated July 15, linked from
this page:

http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defense.jsp


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Jul > Jul 18

                    Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:21:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:59:08 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Maccabee


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:53:03 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:39:30 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>This is a nice idea but it means work. Anyone who is going to
 >>make a positive contribution to a case would have to study it
 >>carefully. In some situations the amount of information
 >>available is limited or 'finite' where is in other cases it
 >>might seem "infinite." The Mantell case, one assumes, has
 >>"finite" or limited information. Most of what can be known about
 >>the case already is known. However, there still might be old
 >>records that have not been researched or analyzed. So, who is
 >going to do that work?

 >I have to agree with you Bruce. Accessing information on a case
 >is one aspect of this work. It would take a database catalog to
 >access the existing information, but to collect additional
 >information goes beyond the time constraints of a UFO hobbist
 >who has a full-time professional career and other UFO hobby
 >activities to pursue.

 >>Perhaps the modus operandi should be as in the legal system. One
 >>person (or a small group) intentionally acts as the advocate(s)
 >>for a case and presents all the available information. Then the
 >>others analyze and comment. This, of course, requires a
 >>considerable time input by all.

<snip>

 >>Bottom line: if you expect to get anywhere on a particular case
 >>and arrive at an agreed-upon answer better pick and choose
 >>wisely... and participants in a discussion of same should
 >>prepare to spend time understanding what is going on. (Consider
 >>the ongoing Rendlesham case, for example, which seems to produce
 >>new information every year. How many thousands of words have
 >>been written on that case over the years... and where are we on
 >>it? Is it proven one way or the other? Some think yes, I guess,
 >>and some think not.)

 >My suggestion, if this is going to be done, is that someone
 >establish a website with a comment form and a database
 >connection where all the facts can be stated on a case and
 >comments and analysis entered into a database, but I still bet
 >it will not come out much different than this forum with debates
 >over the most miniscule points and advocates and skeptics still
 >walking their separate ways.

 >Any efforts in the direction of unifying UFO studies,
 >instituting peer review, gaining support from outside scientific
 >individuals or groups will take a virtual institution on the
 >order of establishing a research center or university in my
 >opinion.

It occurs to me that the Trindade case presently under
discussion here would be an excellent case to start on... to
find out if it is possible for investigators on this list to
agree to _one or more_ of the following possible conclusions:

1) the sighting was not a hoax by Barauna

2) numerous other witnesses actually saw the object

3) the object has no conventional shape

4) it fits no known phenomenon, natural or manmade

5) is a TRUFO (TRue UFO - which could be a previously unknown
"natural" - read "unintelligent" phenomenon or some phenomenon
indicating intelligence, but not human or earlthly animal
intelligence)

6) it was a manufactured craft, but not manufactured here (Alien
Flying Craft - AFC; terminology introduced in the book,
Abduction In My Life)

This case is particularly interesting because

a) the photos are clear enough to be an aid to recollection
of the shape and in fact document the shape of the craft
  (as opposed to cases where one has to rely solely on
the recollections of the witnesses)

b) there apparently were numerous other witnesses besides
the cameraman who described how the object moved

c) the official statement of the Brazilian government (note:
there is still information to be gained on this case from the
Brazilian government... maybe an international petition for
release of the Trindade sighting documents? AJ, you out there
somewhere?)

Even if we don't get any further info from the Brazilian
government it may be that the totality of witness statements
from press reports, interviews, etc. could be enough to push
this one "over the top."

The new NICAP site of Francis Ridge has a lot of Trindade
information. Perhaps with Richard's discovery of newspaper
accounts we can add more information.








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              Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:40:55 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:01:56 -0400
Subject: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? - Acres


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:03:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >As a student of the UFO phenomena I believe contact with E.T.s
 >has already been made and we may event have documented proof
 >too. This proof is the Bible.

 >Nick Balaskas

Hi Nick, Errol and everybody.

After studying ancient writings & artworks, I believe you may be
correct! The only question that remains to me, is which Master
do they serve?

Peter Cook's excellent site, at:

http://www.bibleufo.com/

points out that the bible mentions God coming down from the
skies over 100 times. However there is no mention of Lucifer's
mob using the same mode of transport. There is a mention of him
taking Jesus up to a high place to tempt him, but no mention of
how they got up to the top of the temple.

Jacobs ladder dream sure sounds like a visitation from a UFO. In
fact. most of the Angelic visitations do!

Another example is the Watcher mentioned in DANIEL 4

13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a
WATCHER being a holy one came down from heaven;

23 And whereas the king saw a WATCHER being a holy one coming
down from heaven,

Although the available evidence points to these beings as
representatives of God. Some abductees testimony gives me
impression that there may be both good and bad Angels, just as
there are in the human race.

I'm curious whether many abductees have challenged the Aliens in
the name of Jesus?

Anyone know of any cases? Perhaps Morty could ask Bud Hopkins
for me? Or John Velez maybe has contacts who could help?








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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:50:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:04:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:11:05 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >Eleanor:

 >Oh, come on. This was nothing more than a cheap publicity stunt.
 >There are nutties on the street in tiny numbers in Washington
 >every day, for every imaginable kind of cause. And mainstream
 >science doesn't give a damn about them, why should it?

 >The real question for Ufology is: What idiot tried to
 >demonstrate the importance of the message by demonstrating in
 >front of a newspaper's office because it wasn't paying
 >attention?

 >Your average very skeptical editor will take it as proof that
 >his or her editorial judgement was right on the mark to begin
 >with.

 >The problem, Eleanor, is the message.

When you picket a newspaper, the editor isn't the one you are
trying to reach. You are trying to do an "end run" around the
editor by engaging public interest, in hopes the public will ask
the media for answers.

Where 80-some percent of the public already believes there is
important information being withheld, there is a chance of
success with a sustained effort.

And picketing isn't "cheap" - it requires sacrifice on the part
of the activists.


Eleanor White








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                     Re: Filer's Files #29-2002 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:10:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:05:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #29-2002 - Velez

 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:04:59 EDT
 >Subject: Filer's Files #29-2002

 >FILER'S FILES #29-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >July 17, 2002,  Majorstar@aol.com
 >Webmaster: Chuck Warren  http://.www.filersfiles.com

 >UFO SIGHTINGS INCREASE: Connecticut fast lightspotted, New
 >Jersey phantom train, Pennsylvania lights, Georgia sphere seen
 >by pilot, Florida ruby light, Wisconsin lights, Illinois Flying
 >triangle, Iowa cylinder also disc chased by fighters, New Mexico
 >cylinders, Oregon fast moving disk, Washington lights, Canadian
 >orbs, Mexican UFO at Mt. Popo, Argentina mutilations continue,
 >Sri Lanka disks. Scientists now say there could be 30 billion
 >Earths.  My assumption is we are not alone.

Welcome to the Bizarro World. Where everything is backwards!

Goodbye George, All,

You reported:

 >CIA H. Marshall Chadwell Scientific Director of the CIA stated,
 >"At this time the reports of incidents convince us that there is
 >something going on that must have immediate attention.
 >Sightings of unexplained objects at high altitudes and traveling
 >at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense
 >installations are of such nature that they are not attributable
 >to natural phenomena or known types of vehicles. 1952

It sounds like; instead of moving forward since 1952, we've been
moving backwards (de-evolving) in regard to the UFO question. At
least in terms of 'official' responses and openness anyway.

Just think how far along we'd be if our representatives and
public officials had pursued the UFO issue openly since that
long ago time. Instead of our understanding and knowledge
increasing over the years, it has been replaced with an
infantile, dangerous and obfuscating game of hide-and-seek.
Couple that with an unspoken official _policy_ of ridicule and
denial and we find ourselves in the pea-soup fog that currently
surrounds us in regard to this major/urgent issue.

It would be nice to start from scratch and do it right this
time.

Hello,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:27:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:07:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Kaeser


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:50:01 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:11:05 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 ><snip>

 >>Eleanor:

 >>Oh, come on. This was nothing more than a cheap publicity stunt.
 >>There are nutties on the street in tiny numbers in Washington
 >>every day, for every imaginable kind of cause. And mainstream
 >>science doesn't give a damn about them, why should it?

 >>The real question for Ufology is: What idiot tried to
 >>demonstrate the importance of the message by demonstrating in
 >>front of a newspaper's office because it wasn't paying
 >>attention?

 >>Your average very skeptical editor will take it as proof that
 >>his or her editorial judgement was right on the mark to begin
 >>with.

 >>The problem, Eleanor, is the message.

 >When you picket a newspaper, the editor isn't the one you are
 >trying to reach. You are trying to do an "end run" around the
 >editor by engaging public interest, in hopes the public will ask
 >the media for answers.

I wish these dedicated demonstrators well, and hope they have
the stamina for a long and lonely struggle. You have some hope
that the "public" really pays any attention to this without the
media's coverage, but I have my doubts. If you don't appear to
be credible to the media, which carries your message to the
masses, then you have a difficult time promoting your cause.
During the 60's the media began to pay attention to the anti-war
demonstrators when their numbers began to swell and it became an
important news issue. As of yet, the number of demonstrators in
regard to this subject has been far to limited to attract much
attention (IMO).

 >Where 80-some percent of the public already believes there is
 >important information being withheld, there is a chance of
 >success with a sustained effort.

Great statistic. Would you care to document this? I'd also like
to know how you relate this directly to the UFO field, since the
generic "belief" that you've identified lends itself to just
about any conspiratorial belief that's out there. Or maybe
that's the point.

 >And picketing isn't "cheap" - it requires sacrifice on the part
 >of the activists.

Sacrifice is indeed a requirement, but I sincerely hope this
isn't going to evolve into a request for monetary funding to
support the "cause".

Steve

Steve








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:23:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:10:08 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:53:03 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>This is a nice idea but it means work. Anyone who is going to
 >>make a positive contribution to a case would have to study it
 >>carefully. In some situations the amount of information
 >>available is limited or 'finite' where is in other cases it
 >>might seem "infinite." The Mantell case, one assumes, has
 >>"finite" or limited information. Most of what can be known about
 >>the case already is known. However, there still might be old
 >>records that have not been researched or analyzed. So, who is
 >>going to do that work?

Of course it is going to involve some work. Yes, people are
going to have to dig. Sometimes it will mean limiting an aspect
of a case so that it is manageable. Roswell is so big and
complex that it is out of reach for something like this... but,
aspects of it are not. By limiting the scope of the study, it
can be manageable. Someone could, if he or she desired, limit
the research to the tale told by Gerald Anderson. It is finite
so it could be done. And no, I'm not suggesting that, only that
it is a way of looking at Roswell but limiting the scope of the
research.

I have already said that I'll take a look at the Mantell case
because I have access to these various records. Dick Hall
suggested some additional information that might be relevant is
stored at CUFOS and Mark Rodegheir has promised to forward
copies of the material on to me.

 >I have to agree with you Bruce. Accessing information on a case
 >is one aspect of this work. It would take a database catalog to
 >access the existing information, but to collect additional
 >information goes beyond the time constraints of a UFO hobbist
 >who has a full-time professional career and other UFO hobby
 >activities to pursue.

But if we are merely hobbyists, then we shouldn't be talking
about acceptance in the scientific arenas and we shouldn't be
worried about the journalists ignoring us because this is merely
a hobby. If we plan to elevate it beyond that, then we must be
willing to spend the extra time and effort to do so, otherwise
it'll remain a hobby.

<snip>

 >Didn't we do this, somewhat, with the Alien Autopsy footage? A
 >small group of advocates established a website, then many were
 >asked to comment pro and con on the evidence.

No, we didn't. Those who initiated that were soliciting opinion
from those who had been vocal in their analysis of the footage.
It was not a peer reviewed release but it was a gathering of
opinion.  All opinions were posted, some with comments by others
and some not. It was not a peer review in the classic sense.

<snip>

 >>How does one conclude the Arnold case after all this discussion?
 >>Take a vote? Can a concensus be reached? Can't we just all get
 >>along? But if so, what does that prove? A bunch of "rational
 >>believers" arrived at a conclusion and outvoted the "rational
 >>skeptics" ? And then what happens? We turn it over to a skeptics
 >>group (e.g. CSICOPers) and challenge them to provide an
 >>explanation under the tacit (if not stated) assumption that they
 >>won';t be able to find an explanation because in our discussion
 >>we ruled out all explanations?

Bruce, you should know better than this. You should understand
how peer review works and what it means. No, we don't take a
vote and we don't try to reach a consensus. You (though here,
I'm not talking about Bruce personally, but any of us on this
list) produce a document using the latest and best information
available and then submit it for publication. The journal
editors send it to a number of experts in the field for their
comments and the document is then revised to incorporate these
comments. Here, we are doing the same thing, though an editor is
not selecting the reviewers. They are self-selected. And here we
have a wide range of expertise that might improve on the review
process. There is no voting.

If science worked the way you suggest, we'd never make any
progress. We'd just sit around and worry about what someone else
might say or do. We'd never act.

 >Of course, that would be tantamount to saying all data on the
 >case is available and accessible and complete and overwhelmingly
 >points to a single conclusion so how can those other dummies
 >arrive at some Pelican solution?

 >>Nobody "out there" is really going to care until this breaks
 >>into the main stream.

 >True

Then let's all just throw up our hands and give up. This isn't
really about those "out there" but about attempting to improve
our standards and our research. We are required to set our own
house in order before we move beyond that. This is a way of
beginning that task.

<snip>

 >>I have presented one case that involved Ed and other witnesses
 >>and several photos. (Jan 8, 1990; "Not Just Another Evening
 >>Stroll"). You can read about it on my web site.

 >>The totality of information is limited - it was sort of an
 >>isolated event (within a much larger series of events starting
 >>in Nov. 1987 and ending in the middle 90's) involving multiple
 >>witnesses and photos and, as such, is worthy of study. But to
 >>propose 'The Gulf Breeze Case' as did Kevin, is to propose
 >>literally hours of work leading to days, weeks, months of
 >>discussion on various aspects of what happened in 1987 and 1988
 >>(Ed's sightings and those of over a hundred other witnesses).
 >>Then one could switch to the Bubba sightings (Nov. 1990 through
 >>July 1992), witnessed and videotaped and photographed up the
 >>wazoo, again leading to a monumental amount of work to 'solve'
 >>the sightings (if that is possible). Again, some of this is at
 >>my web site.

I was merely suggesting areas where something might be done in a
more formal and scientific way. Yes, Gulf Breeze can encompass a
wide area, but it can also be narrowed so that just one aspect
of it might be examined. I wasn't ordering anyone to do
something specific, only that a specific list member who has a
good working knowledge of a specific case might like to do
something with that case, even if  the specific point had to be
limited. Bruce, you have been associated with both Arnold and
Gulf Breeze. Just suggestions, not orders. I also suggested
Jerry Clark might like to do something with the Great Airship.
Dennis Stacy might like to do something on the Del Rio case.
Just ideas to get the ball rolling. I can think of dozens of
others and maybe just should have said that someone might like
to look at Levelland or the Lubbock Lights or Socorro to even
Pascagoula.

 >>Bottom line: if you expect to get anywhere on a particular case
 >>and arrive at an agreed-upon answer better pick and choose
 >>wisely... and participants in a discussion of same should
 >>prepare to spend time understanding what is going on. (Consider
 >>the ongoing Rendlesham case, for example, which seems to produce
 >>new information every year. How many thousands of words have
 >>been written on that case over the years... and where are we on
 >>it? Is it proven one way or the other? Some think yes, I guess,
 >>and some think not.)

 >My suggestion, if this is going to be done, is that someone
 >establish a website with a comment form and a database
 >connection where all the facts can be stated on a case and
 >comments and analysis entered into a database, but I still bet
 >it will not come out much different than this forum with debates
 >over the most miniscule points and advocates and skeptics still
 >walking their separate ways.

John Velez has kindly offered his services for just that. EBK
has offered to allow the posting of the reports here, and has
even volunteered for the extra work of looking at the responses
and sending them on to the author.

Others such as Royce Meyer has offered to allow the articles to
be posted on his website. Sean Jones has volunteered to create
one of the documents.

And no, we're not required to look at every little bit of
minutia that comes down the pipe. We are attempting to examine a
case, provide an objective analysis of that case and draw a
conclusion based on the evidence. We are not required to explain
why in some reports it said Mantell wore his watch on his right
wrist and some say he wore it on his left. That isn't important.
Instead we try to look at the case and see if there is a
solution. And we're not even required to look at a ridiculous
explanation like he was chasing Venus when it is clear that
Venus was obscured. (Sorry I couldn't help myself. This means,
simply, that the sky wasn't clear enough for someone to see
Venus even though it can be seen in the day if the observer
knows where to look and there is no haze.)

 >Any efforts in the direction of unifying UFO studies,
 >instituting peer review, gaining support from outside scientific
 >individuals or groups will take a virtual institution on the
 >order of establishing a research center or university in my
 >opinion.

All we want to do here is clean house a little Provide some
solid research and raise the bar. I said nothing about unifying
UFO studies or gaining support from outside science. I suggested
a way that we could improve what we do, provide a forum to
report on those findings, and move on from there. If you feel
that it is too complicated or cumbersome, then you're not
required to participate. The alternative is to attempt nothing
and to continue on the same road that has gained us nothing.

KRandle








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   Jul > Jul 18

                   When Flesh And Blood Fell From The Sky

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:01:43 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:13:30 -0400
Subject: When Flesh And Blood Fell From The Sky


Hi Errol & everyone,

I saw this interesting article & thought I'd share it with you.

A possible explaination could be that it was dumped or dropped
through a rectangular hatch from a UFO?

It will be fun to see what possible explainations our skeptical
freinds come up with! :)

Source: The Anomalist

http://www.anomalist.com/reports/fleshblood.html

High Strangeness Report:

When Flesh and Blood Fell from the Sky

by John Hairr*

The fall of flesh and blood from the sky would generate no small
amount of curiosity, even in our technologically advanced
society acquainted with air travel. We can only imagine the
consternation that such events had upon people in the days
before powered flight. Falls of blood, and in some cases even
flesh, have been chronicled throughout history from all over the
world. Understandably, these events sometimes caused
consternation among the people, and were often seen as portents
of ill luck or doom.

In North Carolina in the nineteenth century, two different
incidents of blood and flesh falling from the sky were recorded.
The episodes, one in Sampson County and the other in Chatham
County, occurred 34 years apart.

The first flesh fall recorded in North Carolina occurred on 15
February 1850 on the farm of Thomas Clarkson, thirteen miles
southwest of the county seat of Clinton. His account of the
incident, and a sample of the material, was taken to
Fayetteville by a Mr. Holland.

Clarkson's description of the event was taken down by Mr.
Holland and printed in the North Carolinian, a newspaper
published in Fayetteville. He noted, "On the 15th Feb'y, 1850,
there fell within 100 yards of the residence of Thos. M.
Clarkson in Sampson county, a shower of Flesh and Blood, about
250 or 300 yards in length. The pieces appeared to be flesh,
liver, lights, brains and blood. Some of the blood ran on the
leaves, apparently very fresh. Three of his (T.M.C.'s) children
were in it, and ran to their mother exclaiming, "Mother there is
meat falling!" Their mother went immediately to see, but the
shower was over; but there lay the flesh, &c. Neill Campbell,
Esq. living close by, was on the spot shortly after it fell, and
pronounced it as above. One of his children was about 150 yards
from the shower and came running to the rest saying he smelt
something like blood. During the time it was falling there was a
cloud overhead, having a red appearance like a wind cloud. There
was no rain." (1)

The writer for the North Carolinian went on to note that the
materials brought in by Mr. Holland was examined "with two of
the best microscopes in the place." All who looked at the
samples agreed that it was flesh and blood, but from what was
unknown. (2)

The second flesh fall recorded in North Carolina occurred on 25
February 1884. Mrs. Kit Lasater, wife of a black tenant farmer
who lived on the farm of Silas Beckworth in New Hope Township in
Chatham County on the north side of the Pittsboro-Raleigh Road,
was standing in a freshly plowed field near a barn a short
distance from her family's one room cabin when blood fell from a
clear sky upon the ground, bushes and fence all around her.

As word spread of the event, curious people dropped in to
investigate the site. At first it was neighbors and friends, but
as the news spread, curiosity seekers from further afield came
by. Soon, the event was chronicled in the local newspaper, the
Chatham Record. Of the event, the paper reported, "Many of the
neighbors, after hearing of her statement, visited the spot and
they all say that the ground--embracing an area of about 60 feet
in circumference--was covered with splotches of something like
blood: and an examination of the trees in this place showed
blood on the branches. We are informed that a reputable
physician of the neighborhood visited the spot and said it was
blood." (3)

S.A. Holleman was one of the first people to visit the site. He
reported the following particulars. "The space covered was about
fifty by seventy feet, and nearly in a rectangular form. The
drops were of sizes varying from that of a small pea to that of
a man's finger and averaged about one to the square foot.
Smaller drops were instantly absorbed, larger ones, with those
on the wood, coagulated. Some fell in the bushes and coagulated
upon the limbs." (4)

Dr. Sidney Atwater gathered up some of the material and took it
to the University of North Carolina, located only a few miles
away in Chapel Hill. There, the material was turned over to Dr.
Francis Preston Venable, professor of chemistry. Venable was
probably the most qualified man in the state to examine the
material. Following undergraduate work at the University of
Virginia, he had moved on to graduate studies at the University
of Gottingen in Germany, where he received his Ph. D. in
chemistry and graduated cum laude. He is best remembered today
for his tenure as President of the Universtiy of North Carolina,
a post he held from 1900-1914. (5)

At first, the material was viewed with amusement by Venable and
his colleagues at the university, but interest in the material
was so widespread that he felt compelled to visit the Beckwith
farm in Chatham County to make some first-hand observations.
 From a direct interview with Mrs. Lasater, he was able to get an
idea of what she had observed.

"The fall came from a cloudless sky, when the wind was so slight
as to be almost imperceptible," wrote Venable. "The position of
the drops seen on the fence indicated a very slight wind from
the south or southwest, across some ploughed land. The woman was
standing on this ploughed land, near a fence, along which some
small pine bushes were growing. She noticed something falling
between her and the ground, saw it leave a red splash on the
sand, heard a pattering like rain around her, looked up, but it
was all over and she could see nothing. She was a good deal
frightened and affected, taking it as a portent of death or evil
of some kind." (6)

Back at the laboratory, Professor Venable conducted several
tests on samples he had been given. These consisted of a few
stained grains of sand from Holleman, and another collection of
stained sand from Dr. Atwater. Venable conducted numerous
chemical, spectrographic and microscopic tests, leading him to
conclude that the material was indeed blood. But exactly what
kind of blood remained unknown.

Venable summed up his findings in the following words. "This
leaves little or no reasonable doubt then that the samples
examined had blood upon them. The question arises, were they
carefully taken; had no animal ever bled on the same ground; had
pigs never been slaughtered in that quarter of the field? etc.
As to theories accounting for so singular a material falling
from a cloudless sky, I have no plausible ones to offer. It may
have been some bird of prey passing over, carrying a bleeding
animal, but a good deal of blood must have fallen to cover so
large a space. If a hoax has been perpetrated on the people of
that neighborhood it has certainly been very cleverly done and
an object seems lacking. On the possibility that it is not a
joke, I have deemed this strange matter worthy of attention.
Other similar observations hereafter may corroborate it and
combined observations may give rise to the proper explanation."
(7)

Unfortunately, though more than a century has passed since Dr.
Venable analyzed the fall of blood in Chatham County, North
Carolina, scientists are still at a loss to explain how flesh
and blood could fall from the sky in the days before powered
flight.


Footnotes:
(1) "Great Fall of Flesh & Blood," North Carolinian, 8 March 1850.
(2) Ibid.
(3) Chatham Record, 6 March 1884.
(4) F.P. Venable, "Fall of Blood In Chatham County," Journal of
     the Elisha Mitchell Scientific Society 1883-1884,
     Volume 1, p. 38.
(5) W. Conard Gass, "Francis Preston Venable", in
     Dictionary of North Carolina Biography, Volume 6,
     edited by William Powell, 1996.
(6) Venable, 38-39.
(7) ibid.

*John Hairr is a writer and historian who hails from Harnett
County, North Carolina. He is collecting accounts of flesh falls
from around the world. If you know of an incident, please email
him at jhairr@aol.com.

Copyright =A92000 The Anomalist


Regards,

Dave








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                                Alien Probe?

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:56:08 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:18:15 -0400
Subject: Alien Probe?


Source: The Anomalist

http://www.anomalist.com/reports/probe.html

High Strangeness Report:

Alien Probe? by Patrick Huyghe.

In late 1991, astronomers may have detected an extraterrestrial
space probe in near Earth space. Who makes such a startling
statement? Some wild-eyed UFO believer? A renegade scientist? A
tabloid psychic? No, not at all. His name is Duncan Steel.

Who is Steel, you wonder? I'll quote from the jacket of his new
book, Rogue Asteroids and Doomsday Comets (Wiley, 1995): "Duncan
Steel, Ph.D. is a research astronomer at the Anglo-Australian
Observatory and a research fellow at the University of Ad
elaide, Australia. A world renowned authority on the comet,
hazard, he has served on both the Detection Committee and the
Intercept Committee created by NASA to assess the threat of
comet and asteroid collisions and investigate technologies to
avert such impacts." Not only that, but Steel is thought of as a
"longtime skeptic" and "as someone who almost invariably has his
facts right," according a reviewer in an Australian magazine
(Colin Keay in The Skeptic, Vol 15, No.3, 1995).

So how did Steel come to his startling conclusion? Here's the
scoop. On Nov. 6, 1991 Jim Scotti using the Spacewatch telescope
at Kitt Peak in Arizona discovered a body which he initially
described as a "fast moving asteroidal object," a month befo re
its closest approach to the Earth. Later, the object's
heliocentric orbital elements suggested instead that "the object
might be a returning spacecraft." As the approximately 30-foot
object, now labeled 1991 VG, neared the Earth, astronomers at
the Eur opean Southern Observatory tracked it and found strong,
rapid brightness variations suggestive of reflections from a
rotating spacecraft.

His curiosity piqued, Steel decided to investigate the different
probabilities for the nature of this object, according to his
account "SETA and 1991 VG," published in The Observatory (Vol.
115, pp. 78-83, 1995). "SETA," by the way, stands for "Search
for Extra-Terrestrial Artifacts" within our Solar System. Steel
first wondered whether the object could be a returning
spacecraft, given those brightness variations and its very
Earth-like orbit. But he found that none of the handful of man-
ma de rocket bodies left in heliocentric orbits during the space
age have purely gravitational orbits returning to the Earth at
that time. Besides, if 1991 VG was a man-made rocket body, then
its return to our vicinity and its accidental detection by
Spacew atch was, Steel calculated, a very unlikely event, on the
order of one in 100,000 per year.

So could it be a natural body, Steel then asked himself? One
factor that strongly argued against this interpretation was the
light variation the object exhibited, which resembled those of
rotating artificial satellite trails seen in wide field
astronomic al photographs. The second factor is that the
object's pre-encounter orbit of 1991 would have made it unstable
in close approaches to the Earth on a time scale measured in
millennia. This means, that if it is an asteroid, it would have
recently arrived in that orbit, which is, Steel states, very
unlikely.

Therefore, concludes Steel, we have to seriously consider the
possibility that this object has "an alien genesis." Given our
meager surveillance of near-Earth objects, there is little
chance that objects of this kind would have been spotted in the
past. There is nothing here, in other words, that would
contradict the alien probe hypothesis, says Steel.

Steel's probability analysis does not end here. He goes on to
tackle an issue that not doubt made his colleagues pale. Was
1991 VG under control or making a random passage by the Earth,
he asks? Since only "about one in 50 objects passing randomly
within 0.022 AU have perigee heights as low as 0.0031 AU," Steel
thinks there is a "possibility that it was a singular alien
space probe on a controlled reconnaissance mission."

Steel ends his surprising analysis on a cautious note, however.
His personal bias, he states, is that 1991 VG is really a man-
made artificial object. But if it was, he concludes, then it's
observation was really an incredible fluke. So much so, in fact,
that scientists, he says, should "consider the possibility of
some other origin for it."

All in all, it's quite an amazing piece of work. But I can't
help but wonder if he's being serious. After all, it does
appears in an April issue. Nobody likes to be a fool.

On the other hand, Steel is not the kind of scientist who pulls
his punches. In his new book about the threat that asteroids and
comets pose to life on Earth, he speculates that Stonehenge was
originally erected during a period of intense celestial bombar
dment--some perhaps of Tunguska-like force--about 5,000 years
ago. Stonehenge's purpose, he ventures, was "to monitor meteor
rates in order to predict when storms were due." Steel doesn't
expect this hypothesis to be warmly welcomed by anthropologists
and antiquarians. Nor will SETI astronomers take kindly to the
notion that an alien probe may have performed a reconnaissance
mission of Earth in 1991. Of course, human-built space probes
have done just that in our solar system for the past quarter
century. Why couldn't someone out there be taking a peek at us?


I noticed another post on the work of this scientist in the
archive which is also a good read.

Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m12-010.shtml

Regards Dave.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:19:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:20:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:58:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:42:47 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:05:23 EDT
 >>>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No 39 - Young

 ><snip>

 >>Try tape 3 of cassettes from Visual Education Associates UFO
 >>programs.

 >Thanks very much. I hope that these, what, 25 year old tapes are
 >still around. I was hoping that you might actually offer the
 >quotes in context, yourself, so that other Listers could make
 >their own judgement. Instead, you have referred to Authority -
 >yourself. Oh, well.


Her _reference_ to authority is not to be confused with your
_appeal_ to authority, even once removed, Mr. Young. If you
wrote the book you'd quote yourself too, I'm confident. No
fallacy with _her_.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:04:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:22:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >Do you think that if the US government announced that a
 >spacecraft had crashed at Roswell, I would be able to deny it by
 >pointing out stupid mistakes the government had made in the
 >past? What exactly is your point here?

In my reply to John's dogding and weaving, I said I couldn't
imagine why the US government would announce, falsely, that the
something alien crashed at Roswell.

But I just thought of a delicious scenario. Suppose these UFO
disclosure demonstrations in Washington grow very large.
Suppose, in fact, that they're as large as the largest
demonstrations against the Vietnam war. (Not remotely likely, in
my view, but let's fantasize.) Suppose the UFO disclosure
movement gets some political strength -- and that an utterly
credulous UFO believer is elected president. by an utterly
credulous electorate.

And now suppose this dumbass president announces that the
Roswell crash was alien, without ever going into the archives to
prove that it was. We'd need John to denounce that - and Jerry
Clark and I would be right there with him.

Greg Sandow








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:04:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:25:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Sandow


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >I would be interested if you could dredge up any statement where
 >I ruled out the possibilty that the Trindade photographs show a
 >physical object As I have said several times before, I am not
 >(at this stage, at least) considering the nature of the
 >photographs. I am challenging the repeated, by in my view
 >totally unproven, assertion that there were 48 witnesses to the
 >sightings.

Look at you - writhing and squirming, because someone dares to
use the same scorn about you, that you use about Jerry, and
anyone else you label a "believer". Someone other than Jerry,
that is, whom you're used to, and doesn't throw you off from
your ritualized responses.

This was your statement:

 >Looking through what I have written, can you find anywhere where
 >I have said that a large Saturn-shaped object - "structure" is
 >begging the question a bit, isn't it - was not photographed over
 >Trindade Island? In fact I think at one point I said I was open
 >to the possibility that it was some sort of natural phenomena.

And no, you don't "rule out the possibility" that this was a
physical object. Again, you're dancing and feinting, trying to
change the terms of the discussion, so you can claim that you're
right, no matter what the facts show. Let's not comb the record,
trying to determine what you might have said in the past. Let's
focus on what I've just quoted, something there's no doubt that
you said very recently. You never ruled out the possibility, you
say, that the photograph might not have shown a large, Saturn-
shaped object. No, not at all - you think think you might have
said, once upon a time, that the photograph might have shown a
natural phenomenon. So you're saying, in very plain English,
that you're open to two possibilities Possibility one (it's
really necessary to address you like a schoolboy, in order to
keep you on the subject): The photograph was a hoax. Possibility
two: the photograph showed a natural phenomenon.

So what about possibility three, that the photo showed a
physical object? That possibility wasn't worth mentioning?
Apparently not - which would lead any reasonable person to
suspect that you don't believe in it. Don't believe, in other
words, that it could even remotely be true. That's the plain
implication of your words. You can squirm all you want, but you
can't change reality.

But wait... maybe you mis-spoke! Maybe, as can happen to anyone,
you didn't quite say what you meant. Maybe you didn't mean to
rule out the possibility that the Trinidade photo shows a
physical object. Maybe you've stated loud and long that you
really are willilng to consider that possibility - in which case
I'm sure you'll rise to the challenge you keep throwing at
everyone else, and provide us with chapter and verse.

But then maybe your statement was the other kind of slip - the
unintentional revelation of what you really think. That's what
I'd bet on. You're absolutely sure that no physical object was
photographed - so sure, in fact, that you didn't even notice
when you let your certainty slip out.

 >Of course, if the Brazilian government has seized the film and
 >taken it away to be developed in a government lab, that would be
 >solid evidence for the genuineness of the photographs, wouldn't
 >it?

Of course not. Official Brazilian interest, or lack of interest,
doesn't prove anything about the photos. But don't look at me!
You're the one who brought this red herring to market. You're
the one who argued that the Brazilian government didn't show
much interest, because they'd let many days slip by before they
got the photos. And, of course, that their lack of interest
might suggest they believed the photos weren't genuine. And,
finally, that this might suggest that the photos weren't, in
fact, genuine. If you now think this line of argument doesn't
make any sense, be my guest -- turn your scorn on yourself.

 >Last time Magonia mentioned September 11, we got ticked off for
 >bad taste, so I'm not going to venture there. Yes, governments
 >and public bodies do make silly decisons and do illogical
 >things. Do you think that if the US government announced that a
 >spacecraft had crashed at Roswell, I would be able to deny it by
 >pointing out stupid mistakes the government had made in the
 >past? What exactly is your point here?


You said the Brazilian government took way too much time to get
the photos. That, you said, might show they weren't interested
in them.

But the Brazilians could just as well have been inefficient. I
gave a couple of striking examples of how inefficient
governments can be, in situations far more important than the
Trinidade photos. My point? Simply that you believe what's
convenient for you to believe.

If the US government announced that a spaceship crashed near
Roswell, we'd all have to assess the evidence for that claim. In
1962, when the US government announced that Soviet missiles were
in Cuba, it provided proof. During the Vietnam war, when it
announced that the North Vietnamese had fired on a US ship in
the Gulf of Tonkin, it didn't provide proof - and the claim
turned out to be bogus, a made-up excuse for escalating the war.

Now, I can't quite imagine why the US government might want to
say the Roswell crash really was alien, when in fact it wasn't.
But maybe that could happen. Maybe you remember, John, that the
Soviet Union once claimed that something seen in a sky was a
UFO, because they didn't want to admit that a missile test had
failed, and that millions of people had seen it. (Thanks to
James Oberg for pointing this out many years ago.) The Soviet
government beyond doubt was in the habit of lying, so anything
it said had to be taken with many grains of salt. If you knew
the US government behaved the same way, you'd have every right
to be suspicious of something it said.


Greg Sandow








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                  Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Pflock

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:16:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:27:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Pflock


Dear Fellow List Fiends,

I note that Ward Kimball's presentation at the 1979 MUFON gaggle
isn't included in the Proceedings volume. Is this because it was
given 'off-line' or....?

Does a transcript or other written/audio record exist?

Cheers,

Karl








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:46:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:55:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>,
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:23:07 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:39:25 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


Patient and gentle listfolk:

 >I would be interested if you could dredge up any statement where
 >I ruled out the possibilty that the Trindade photographs show a
 >physical object As I have said several times before, I am not
 >(at this stage, at least) considering the nature of the
 >photographs. I am challenging the repeated, by in my view
 >totally unproven, assertion that there were 48 witnesses to the
 >sightings.

Once again ol' reliable John switches the ground of the
argument. Once, listfolk who are still with us (and I certainly
don't blame those who aren't) will recall, John was claiming
there were no other witnesses, except possibly one or two
confederates. Since having lost that argument, he now wants us
to believe that all he cares about is the precise number of _48_
other witnesses. The ol' pelicanist sleight-of-wing.

 >>My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: At least in this
 >>one instance, someone you tag as a believer is far more open-
 >>minded than you seem to be.

 >My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: you are not
 >actually reading what I write.

My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: you're playing a
shady and dishonest game unworthy of you.

 >>Now you reply with this nonsense about a court of law. And it
 >>truly is nonsense. The Trinidade case isn't being presented in
 >>court.

 >People on this List have repeatedly used the analogy of a court
 >of law when discussing the evidential value of UFO reports.
 >Usually this has been to argue against sceptics, claiming that
 >the value of eyewitness reports in a UFO case is of the same
 >value as eyewitness testimony in court cases.

Nobody brought up the irrelevant analogy of a court of law in
this instance until you did, John. The absence of supporting
statements (at least translated into English), which everybody
concedes and laments and which you have now beaten into its
component molecules, would be a liability in court. The very
fact of its irrelevance in this instance - when we are simply
trying to determine what did or did not happen that day in
January 1958, and who was there at the time, in the fashion of
historians looking back at a now-distant event - is, I suppose,
precisely why you brought it up. The rest of us are still
waiting for a cogent, pointed argument which might actually get
all of us - 'philes and 'phobes alike - somewhere other than
stuck in this slough of stale ... discourse.

 >I'm not bothered about historians, I'm addressing UFO
 >researchers, who present no names, no statements, no evidence,
 >no multi-witness case.

I'm sure you're not bothered about historians. Or logical,
coherent, meaningful arguments, either. As a number of quoted
statements from investigating authorities have established,
there were other witnesses. A few have been named. Again,
listfolk: this whole thing began with John's denying the
existence of other witnesses. That ship sunk, he now seeks to
float a whole new one, while denying that the first is now at
home - like so many other pelicanist claims - with Davy Jones.

 >>You have no evidence, none at all, that suggests that there
 >>weren't.

 >Yes I have: the complete absence of any evidence that there
 >were! The only evidence you present is conjectures based on
 >interpretations of statements made by people who weren't there,
 >which themselves were sometimes presented secondhand.

Which is the usual rubbish. John works from a complete absence
of any evidence for the nonexistence of other witnesses,
despited their repeatedly being mentioned and paraphrased in
documents by investigating officials. Apparently, he has now
been reduced to arguing, by implication at least, that the
Brazilian Navy lied about the case. For the available facts,
John prefers to dish out his own self-serving speculations. Food
for pelicans, perhaps, if neither nutritious nor digestible to
the rest of us.

I have made many mistakes in my long life, but John makes me
grateful that at least I didn't end up a psychosocial ufologist.


Jerry Clark








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                    Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:23:07 -0400
Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison


Hello All,

For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
found at:

http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

In addition a copy of the same pic from the microfilm archives
is posted along with it for comparative analysis. (Of course the
microfilm copy is of very poor quality).

Much thanks to Dr. Bruce Maccabee for his on going assistance in
evaluating the photograph.


Regards,

Frank











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               Re: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:52:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:27:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? -


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:40:55 +1000
 >Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:03:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>As a student of the UFO phenomena I believe contact with E.T.s
 >>has already been made and we may event have documented proof
 >>too. This proof is the Bible.

 >>Nick Balaskas

 >After studying ancient writings & artworks, I believe you may be
 >correct! The only question that remains to me, is which Master
 >do they serve?

The Artificial Intelligence (AI) analysis presented in my book
'Abduction In My Life' suggests that _we_ are the artificial
intelligence... hence a result of some Other Intelligence (OI).

We have just learned of a virus being made from 'parts' (short
DNA segments) that you can buy off-the-shelf. This is yet
another step in reverse-engineering life.

One can easily imagine that OI hundreds or thousands of years
'older' than humans could engineer DNA much more complicated
than that of a virus.

The Creation/Darwin (CD) theory is that DNA experimentaiton by
OI produced species variations, whereas between diddlings,
mutation/natural selection occurred over hundreds or thousands
of years (OI has plenty of time to spend/waste waiting to see
the consequences of a particular DNA modification).

So, yes, the Bible and other ancient stories of how life came to
be, etc... could be fundamentally correct, yet need a
considerable reinterpretation.

*We are the AI.*
(You heard it here first, folks.)








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                    Re: Filer's Files #29-2002 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:04:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:30:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #29-2002 - Maccabee


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:10:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #29-2002

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:04:59 EDT
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #29-2002

 >>FILER'S FILES #29-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>July 17, 2002, Majorstar@aol.com
 >>Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://.www.filersfiles.com

 >>CIA H. Marshall Chadwell Scientific Director of the CIA stated,
 >>"At this time the reports of incidents convince us that there is
 >>something going on that must have immediate attention.
 >>Sightings of unexplained objects at high altitudes and traveling
 >>at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense
 >>installations are of such nature that they are not attributable
 >>to natural phenomena or known types of vehicles. 1952

 >It sounds like; instead of moving forward since 1952, we've been
 >moving backwards (de-evolving) in regard to the UFO question. At
 >least in terms of 'official' responses and openness anyway.

 >Just think how far along we'd be if our representatives and
 >public officials had pursued the UFO issue openly since that
 >long ago time. Instead of our understanding and knowledge
 >increasing over the years, it has been replaced with an
 >infantile, dangerous and obfuscating game of hide-and-seek.
 >Couple that with an unspoken official _policy_ of ridicule and
 >denial and we find ourselves in the pea-soup fog that currently
 >surrounds us in regard to this major/urgent issue.>

If you want to see what happened 50 years ago when the AF
was close to admitting... read:

http://brumac.8k.com/1952yearofufo/1952yearofufo.html

The Air Force almost admitted to unexplained cases that could be
interplanetary visitor sightings. And then after the Washington
DC sightings (the first of which were 50 years ago tomorrow) the
lid was slammed on by General Samford.

See what I mean at the above web site!








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                    Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton  <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:32:23 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Hamilton


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:23:40 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:53:03 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

<snip>

 >All we want to do here is clean house a little Provide some
 >solid research and raise the bar. I said nothing about unifying
 >UFO studies or gaining support from outside science. I suggested
 >a way that we could improve what we do, provide a forum to
 >report on those findings, and move on from there. If you feel
 >that it is too complicated or cumbersome, then you're not
 >required to participate. The alternative is to attempt nothing
 >and to continue on the same road that has gained us nothing.

Kevin,

This is a good idea as you have limited the scope of your
proposal. Are you planning to design a protocol for doing the
research and how we can propose solutions for a particular case?

Since you volunteered the Mantell case, then let us start with
that.

I, for one, would like to see as much witness descriptive data
of the unknown object pursued by Mantell as possible in order to
find perceptual points that could suggest the nature of the
pursued object.

Weather and wind data if available would be nice. Also any known
Skyhook stations in the vicinity if that is such a strong
possibility. Another explanation given long ago was that Mantell
was chasing the planet Venus. Can we rule this out?

There were alleged plane to tower communications describing a
metallic object of great size. Were these accurate reports or
distortions? Or will this be one of those cases where
insufficient data exists to make a probable determination?


Thanks,

Bill Hamilton







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                      Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Lowe

From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:07:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:41:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Lowe


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:21:10 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

<snip>

 >The new NICAP site of Francis Ridge has a lot of Trindade
 >information. Perhaps with Richard's discovery of newspaper
 >accounts we can add more information.


Hi Errol, Bruce, List.

The Trindade case on the NICAP site can be found at the url
below.

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/baraunadir.htm


Adam








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                             UK Abductees Needed

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@email.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:26:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:43:53 -0400
Subject: UK Abductees Needed


Dear Colleagues,

I have been asked to take part/consult in a new and rather
different television program. The program's format takes on the
role of investigating a particular incident. There will be a
number of different program's all seriously investigating a
different occurrence, ghost, poltergeist etc. I've been asked to
consult/take part in a UFO investigation.

There is only one snag and that is the program's makers would
like an abductee to take part, preferably someone who has had a
recent experience and would assist in the investigation of this
event.

The abductee in question can be of any age or gender, the only
restriction is that the event/events in question must have
occurred in the UK.

I have had a long and serious discussion with the production
company in question and I am convinced that they will treat the
subject matter in an objective and serious manner otherwise I'd
not be involved myself.

I'd therefore respectfully like to ask if you know of an
abductee that would possibly fit the bill. If you do perhaps you
would be kind enough to put them in touch with me.

They can either reach me via e-mail at: philipmantle@email.com,
or on the phone via: (home) 01924 441411, (work) 0113 260 1133
or 0113 232 6648.

Any assistance with this request would be greatly appreciated.
Time is against me on this one and please feel free to repost
this message to your colleagues, newsgroups, web sites etc.


Yours sincerely,

Philip Mantle.

www.beyondpublications.com








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                 Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:25:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:06:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Friedman


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:16:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs

 >Dear Fellow List Fiends,

 >I note that Ward Kimball's presentation at the 1979 MUFON gaggle
 >isn't included in the Proceedings volume. Is this because it was
 >given 'off-line' or....?

 >Does a transcript or other written/audio record exist?


Ward went first that Saturday evening July 7,with his
presentation and a short Jonathan Winters Movie. Then Allen
Hynek with his paper and then me. Allen's and my papers are in
the Proceedings. It is my recollection that the Kimball
presentation was an extra added attraction. I don't know if
anybody recorded it. I did the advance publicity for the
symposium and cannot recall mentioning Ward in the first or
second press release, though there was a major effort to attract
those locals, who could not spend the weekend, to this special
after dinner event. We had about 1000 people.


Stan Friedman








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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:50:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:08:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:27:25 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:50:01 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >>When you picket a newspaper, the editor isn't the one you are
 >>trying to reach. You are trying to do an "end run" around the
 >>editor by engaging public interest, in hopes the public will ask
 >>the media for answers.

 >I wish these dedicated demonstrators well, and hope they have
 >the stamina for a long and lonely struggle. You have some hope
 >that the "public" really pays any attention to this without the
 >media's coverage, but I have my doubts. If you don't appear to
 >be credible to the media, which carries your message to the
 >masses, then you have a difficult time promoting your cause.
 >During the 60's the media began to pay attention to the anti-war
 >demonstrators when their numbers began to swell and it became an
 >important news issue. As of yet, the number of demonstrators in
 >regard to this subject has been far to limited to attract much
 >attention (IMO).

You are absolutely right. That's why I'm still hoping for a new
public demonstration initiative, which is prepared to hold out
until some favourable action takes place.

 >>Where 80-some percent of the public already believes there is
 >>important information being withheld, there is a chance of
 >>success with a sustained effort.

 >Great statistic. Would you care to document this?

It was one of the major polls in recent years, like perhaps
2 years ago, and the pollster was a big name, like Gallup
or Roper. I'm sorry, with another cause to pursue, I don't
keep really good notes. I don't know if I heard it on SDI,
or the Pahrump NV show.

 >I'd also like
 >to know how you relate this directly to the UFO field, since the
 >generic "belief" that you've identified lends itself to just
 >about any conspiratorial belief that's out there. Or maybe
 >that's the point.

Well, the exact stat I heard was 86% of U.S. residents believe
that the government is withholding UFO information. My earliest
occurrence of "86%" (email string search) was in March 2001, but
that email was not the first sent out to my other group.

So it clearly was UFO-related. I've heard the figure "80%" a
number of times recently on SDI by people who know a lot more
about UFO research than I do.

 >>And picketing isn't "cheap" - it requires sacrifice on the part
 >>of the activists.

 >Sacrifice is indeed a requirement, but I sincerely hope this
 >isn't going to evolve into a request for monetary funding to
 >support the "cause".

A request for funding certainly won't come from me, I'm far too
busy on the other matter. Funding for picketing can be very
minimal if the picketing and travel is handled by retirees, who
receive pensions. There is no requirement that the picketers be
researchers ... reseachers need to keep at their work until the
secrecy dike breaks.


Eleanor White






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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:26:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:10:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - Young


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:50:01 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:11:05 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

<snip>

 >And picketing isn't "cheap" - it requires sacrifice on the part
 >of the activists.

Eleanor:

That's why it's used by organizers of all kinds to generate
commitment by the faithful.  In this school of community action,
it's the "action" that's important, not the success or failure
of the "community".

Surely the action we're thinking about, by a tiny handful, only
served to call attention to the real lack of interest of the
claimed "80%" of the population who are said to believe, or it
pointed out the stunning incompetence of the "organizers".

Take your pick; either way it was a flop.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                        D2003 Media Update - 07-18-02

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:56:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:17:47 -0400
Subject: D2003 Media Update - 07-18-02


D I S C L O S U R E 2 0 0 3
8th District Congressional Campaign of Stephen Bassett

Media Update - July 18, 2003
(to the combined D2003/PRG/X-PPAC mail list)

The Washington Post has finally written about the D2003
campaign - not in the printed paper, on the website. The
article is at the following location:

Fringe Candidates Carry On in State Elections
While Few Aim to Win, Most Seek Attention
By Paul Schwartzman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 18, 2002

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21341-2002Jul17.html

My response to this article is provided below. After you have
read both, feel free to express your view of this article to the
editor of the Washington Post:

letters@washpost.com and/or

Letters to the Editor
Washington Post
1150 15th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20071


Candidate Response
__________________________

July 18, 2002

Leonard Downie, Jr.
Executive Editor
Washington Post
1150 15th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20071

Re: Disclosure2003: The Maryland 8th District Congressional

Campaign of Stephen Bassett and "Fringe Candidates Carry On in
State Elections: While Few Aim to Win, Most Seek Attention" by
Paul Schwartzman

Dear Mr. Downie:

I wish to thank the Washington Post for the extensive July 18
article about the Disclosure2003 8th District congressional
campaign published solely on your website by crack political
reporter, Paul Schwartzman. I look forward to the campaign
eventually making it into the esteemed printed version of your
fine paper.

We had become concerned the Disclosure2003 campaign, which was
announced at a press conference at the National Press Club on
April 17 and followed up by two national press releases on April
19 and June 21 (and which were sent to a half-dozen Post
reporters and editors), was not going to come to your attention.
We have been gathering nominating signatures all over the 8th
District since April 20 (we now have over 4000) and had created
an extensive website, but the Post didn't seem to notice.
Clearly that is no longer the case.

I was particularly impressed how Mr. Schwartzman was able to
condense the extensive materials from the Disclosure2003 website
(www.disclosure2003.net) and his interview with me down to a
mere 230 words and still explain the campaign's goals and
positions so well. However, there were a few minor mistakes in
the story. Permit me to correct them.

I did not say I was, "not expecting to have much of an impact on
a race that features marquee names such as Morella and state
Del. Mark K. Shriver and state Sen. Christopher Van Hollen, Jr.,
both Democrats from Montgomery." Rather I said I expected to
have considerable impact by holding the swing votes in a likely
close campaign by the middle of September, when the first post-
primary polling was to take place.

While I did not provide Mr. Schwartzman with the specific names
of government and agency witnesses who have been coming forward
with testimony regarding UFO/ET related events and evidence, I
did direct him to a website (www.disclosureproject.org) which
holds these testimonies and names these witnesses. Perhaps Mr.
Schwartzman has not yet achieved sufficient reportorial status
within the Post to have been issued a computer with a web
browser at this time. I can understand that.

I did not say, "some people try to make fun of the issue."
Rather I said that very few people make fun of the issue.

I did not say that, "If you've got the truth on your side,
they don't give you crap." Rather I said when you
are dealing from the truth, you don't to take any crap.

Speaking of crap, I would once again like to thank you for your
paper's fine article about the Disclosure2003 campaign.

A third national press release will go out shortly announcing an
August 5 press conference on the steps of the Maryland State
capitol building, when approximately 6000 nominating signatures
securing congressional ballot access will be delivered to the
Maryland State Board of Elections. While your paper was tied up
and unable to attend the April 17 press conference at the
National Press Club announcing my candidacy, I am hoping Mr.
Schwartzman or another of your fine reporters might make it over
to Annapolis that day - perhaps on their lunch break.

Sincerely,
Stephen Bassett
Independent Candidate
Maryland 8th Congressional District

  _________________________________________________

  Transparent government, private citizenry
  _________________________________________________

   Campaign Headquarters
   Bethesda/Gaithersburg
   4938 Hampden Lane, #161
   Bethesda, MD 20814
  Phone: 301-990-4290 Fax: 301-990-1099
   Email: Disclosure2003@aol.com
   Website: www.disclosure2003.net






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                 Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:08:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:22:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Maccabee


 >From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:16:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs


 >Dear Fellow List Fiends,

 >I note that Ward Kimball's presentation at the 1979 MUFON gaggle
 >isn't included in the Proceedings volume. Is this because it was
 >given 'off-line' or....?

I believe Kimball's presentation was an "add on special event"
rather than a typical MUFON Symp paper. I think his presentation
was only about 1/2 hour long, and at night.

 >Does a transcript or other written/audio record exist?

Good question.







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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:28:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:32:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:46:04 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >Patient and gentle listfolk:

I think by now few are patient, and their gentility is wearing
thin.

 >>I would be interested if you could dredge up any statement where
 >>I ruled out the possibilty that the Trindade photographs show a
 >>physical object As I have said several times before, I am not
 >>(at this stage, at least) considering the nature of the
 >>photographs. I am challenging the repeated, by in my view
 >>totally unproven, assertion that there were 48 witnesses to the
 >>sightings.

 >Once again ol' reliable John switches the ground of the
 >argument. Once, listfolk who are still with us (and I certainly
 >don't blame those who aren't) will recall, John was claiming
 >there were no other witnesses, except possibly one or two
 >confederates. Since having lost that argument, he now wants us
 >to believe that all he cares about is the precise number of _48_
 >other witnesses. The ol' pelicanist sleight-of-wing.

I've not lost, or changed, my argument. There's a heck of a
difference between three witnesses and 48 witnesses. If you
think that is just arguing about the "precise number of
witnesses", then it tells us more about you than it does about
the case, my friend. But maybe three and 48 are interchangable
in many of the other UFO cases you report. Useful to know that.

 >My conclusion, until someone proves otherwise: you're playing a
 >shady and dishonest game unworthy of you.

Jerry, almost everything I say is unworthy of me, according to
your posts.

 >Nobody brought up the irrelevant analogy of a court of law in
 >this instance until you did, John. The absence of supporting
 >statements (at least translated into English), which everybody
 >concedes and laments and which you have now beaten into its
 >component molecules, would be a liability in court. The very
 >fact of its irrelevance in this instance - when we are simply
 >trying to determine what did or did not happen that day in
 >January 1958, and who was there at the time, in the fashion of
 >historians looking back at a now-distant event - is, I suppose,
 >precisely why you brought it up. The rest of us are still
 >waiting for a cogent, pointed argument which might actually get
 >all of us - 'philes and 'phobes alike - somewhere other than
 >stuck in this slough of stale ... discourse.

Indeed, this is very wearisome. If you're determined not to
understand my analogy, there's little I can do about it. I'm
sure other people do.

 >>I'm not bothered about historians, I'm addressing UFO
 >>researchers, who present no names, no statements, no evidence,
 >>no multi-witness case.

 >I'm sure you're not bothered about historians. Or logical,
 >coherent, meaningful arguments, either. As a number of quoted
 >statements from investigating authorities have established,
 >there were other witnesses.

A number of statements have claimed that there were witnesses.
They have certainly not confirmed the fact.

 >A few have been named.

Yes, by me, quite a long time ago in this debate. Strangely, I
got their names from your encyclopaedia. thank you.

 >Again,
 >listfolk: this whole thing began with John's denying the
 >existence of other witnesses. That ship sunk, he now seeks to
 >float a whole new one, while denying that the first is now at
 >home - like so many other pelicanist claims - with Davy Jones.

Actually, you're right, but not because the "ship is sunk". I
hadn't really intended to question the validity of the
photographs themselves. There are a number of impressive UFO
photgraphs. What we are told makes the Trindade Island ones so
special is that 48 people were present when they were taken. If
this was not the case - as I contend - they would still be
impressive photgraphs, but no more so than many others over the
years. So it rather took me by surprise when I found out that
these photographs had been treated in a rather cavalier fashion.
And in my response to Greg Sandow's posting, you'll see that I'm
rather surprised by some more details about the photgraphs.

I still don't contend that these photos are fakes, I don't have
the evidence for that, but I think there are a number of
questions over them which need answering.

 >>>You have no evidence, none at all, that suggests that there
 >>>weren't.

[other witnesses]

 >>Yes I have: the complete absence of any evidence that there
 >>were! The only evidence you present is conjectures based on
 >>interpretations of statements made by people who weren't there,
 >>which themselves were sometimes presented secondhand.

 >Which is the usual rubbish. John works from a complete absence
 >of any evidence for the nonexistence of other witnesses,
 >despited their repeatedly being mentioned and paraphrased in
 >documents by investigating officials.

Mentioned and paraphrased. never quoted and named.

 >Apparently, he has now
 >been reduced to arguing, by implication at least, that the
 >Brazilian Navy lied about the case.

If you re-read Olavo Fontes report you will see that there is no
question that on at least two occasions they did. I would have
thought Jerry would be one of the last people to come over all
indignant at the suggestion that military authorities might tell
lies.

 >For the available facts,
 >John prefers to dish out his own self-serving speculations. Food
 >for pelicans, perhaps, if neither nutritious nor digestible to
 >the rest of us.

 >I have made many mistakes in my long life, but John makes me
 >grateful that at least I didn't end up a psychosocial ufologist.

So am I, Jerry, so am I. Then there'd be no-one for me to have
these entertaining disputes with.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:03:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:34:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:04:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>Of course, if the Brazilian government has seized the film and
 >>taken it away to be developed in a government lab, that would be
 >>solid evidence for the genuineness of the photographs, wouldn't
 >>it?

 >Of course not. Official Brazilian interest, or lack of interest,
 >doesn't prove anything about the photos. But don't look at me!
 >You're the one who brought this red herring to market. You're
 >the one who argued that the Brazilian government didn't show
 >much interest, because they'd let many days slip by before they
 >got the photos. And, of course, that their lack of interest
 >might suggest they believed the photos weren't genuine. And,
 >finally, that this might suggest that the photos weren't, in
 >fact, genuine. If you now think this line of argument doesn't
 >make any sense, be my guest -- turn your scorn on yourself.

I think this argument does make a lot of sense. I was interested
to find the following in Olavo Fontes very detailed account of
the case on the CUFOS website. At one point he describes how a
UFO (UAO) was seen "a few days before the arrival of the
Almirante Saldhana:

"The investigations also revealed another important thing (also
denied by Co, Bacellar): that the UAO had been photographed by
one of the witnesses, a Navy sergeant. The man was taking
pictures of the island with a box camera when he spotted the UAO
moving across the sky. He shot one picture before it
disappeared. The negative was immediately requested by Com.
Bacellar and the film developed the same day"

The picture showed an object which seems identical to the one in
the Barauna photographs.

Now this is a very important statement for a number reasons.
Firstly, if this photo is available for study (I have not been
able to find it on the Internet, but I have not had time to
search in great depth) and it does show an image similar to the
Barauna photographs, then this would be strong evidence of the
existence of a physical object flying around the island, over a
period of time.

But also it shows that the Brazilian naval authorities were
interested in photographs of UFOs: they took possession of the
film and developed it there and then. This suggests that
developing facilities were available on Trindade before the
arrival of the Almirante Saldhana, and that they had personnel
who were able to develop it. If this was the case, why did they
go through the curious charade of having Barauna develop the
film in his underpants in a makeship darkroom on board ship,
when there were already processing facilities on the island?

Given that there were facilities on the island to develop the
earlier photographs, and at least chemicals on board ship to
develop Barauna's photographs, what would be the point of having
these facilities, yet not having any photographic paper
available to produce positive prints?

Whe originally discussing this case my point was entirely on the
number of alleged witnesses, which I felt - and still do - had
been grossly exaggerated. But the more I read the details, I
feel increasingly that there was something peculiar with the way
the photographs were handled. What this may mean, I have at the
moment no idea.

 >You said the Brazilian government took way too much time to get
 >the photos. That, you said, might show they weren't interested
 >in them.

 >But the Brazilians could just as well have been inefficient. I
 >gave a couple of striking examples of how inefficient
 >governments can be, in situations far more important than the
 >Trinidade photos. My point? Simply that you believe what's
 >convenient for you to believe.

See above. The Brazilian navy seemed to be efficient enough in
getting hold of and processing the photograph taken by the
Sergeant.

Also available on the net at the CUFOS website is the text of
the Brazilian navy's report on the case. There are a number of
interesting points. The report is from Antonio Maria de
Carvalho, Fleet Admiral, Chief of the Navy High Command, and is
addressed to the Navy Minister, so we are dealing with a pretty
high level of official here.

The report details to whole series of five events over and
around Trindade and not just the Barauna incident. No individual
witnesses are named but it states: "the witnesses who sighted
the UAOs were persons with different qualifications - workers,
medical officers, dentists, sailors and sergeants, officers,
civilains and professional photographer"

Now this sounds impressive, but really gives us no new
information. the only people on that list who can definitely be
associated with the photographic case are the photographer
(Barauna himself); the dentist (Ribiero), and presumably Captain
(Air Force, retired) Viejas. Of particular interest is the
latter's quote in Olavo Fontes report: "Other people were also
alerted by my alarm - a sergeant, sailors, the ships dentist and
other persons." The phrasing of this is so similar to the
sentence in the Naval report that I suggest that the writer of
that report is here quoting Viejas, rather than summarising his
own interviews with the alleged witnesses. If he had spoken to
the "persons with different qualifications" we may have had some
more details.

In Fontes report there is part of an interview with a Mr Filho
who appears to be the only other witness on the ship who
personally claimed to be on deck when the photgraphs were taken.
It is a curiously vague statement:

"First I want to make it very clear that I don't know if what I
saw was really the so-called flying saucer ... Everything
happened in just a few seconds,in no more than 20 seconds [in
fact 20 seconds is quite a long time to be looking at an object
flying aroung, but estimates of time in such situations are
notoriously prone to being exaggerated - JR] and for this reason
I cannot give you details about the curious craft. It looked
like an object with polished surface and uniform colour ... "

When prompted by the reporter "can you tell me if the object you
sighted was the same as the one registered on Barauna's
photographs?" he replied, rather cagily, "As I said before, the
thing was too rapid. It was almost impossible for the human
vision to fix any detail of the object. Mr Barauna was operating
with a camera of modern type which was able to register those
details. Generally speaking the shape of the object was the same
as that seen on the negatives developed on board the Almirante
Saldhana"

Well, this just get more curious. Hardly a ringing endorsement
from the third quoted witness - yes, I agree, three direct
quotations! "almost impossible for the human vision to fix any
detail", but not so fast that Barauna didn't get four clear
photos? The business about the "camera of modern type" is, of
course irrelevant. The speed that mattered was the speed with
which Barauna got the viewfinder to his eyes, found the object
and pressed the shutter.

Now if the sighting did actually take twenty seconds, there
would be no problem with taking the photos, but why would Filho
be so emphatic that he didn't see anything clearly?

A more suspicious person than me might suggest that he actually
knew that the object he saw was not what Barauna photographed,
but did not want to be seen contradicting a story which by now
had attracted the attention of the President of Brazil. In his
statement, which is worthy of any spin-doctor, he manages
cleverly to avoid confirming or denying Baraunas story. 45 years
later and this guy would be working for Tony Blair!

This case is certainly not as straightforward as we ahve been
led to believe.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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             Re: Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:08:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:39:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:13:03 -0400
 >Subject: From NASA/JPL

 >Donald Savage
 >Headquarters, Washington      July 17, 2002
 >(Phone: 202/358-1547)

 >Martha J. Heil
 >Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
 >(Phone: 818/354-0850)

 >RELEASE: 02-128

 >Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel Simpler

 >A "freeway" through the solar system resembling a vast array of
 >virtual winding tunnels and conduits around the Sun and planets,
 >discovered by an engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
 >Pasadena, Calif., can slash the amount of fuel needed for future
 >space missions.

 >Called the Interplanetary Superhighway, the system was
 >calculated by Martin Lo, who used his theory to design the
 >flight path for NASA's Genesis mission, which is currently using
 >this "freeway in space" on its mission to collect solar wind
 >particles for return to Earth.

<snip>

For many years I have been talking about Cosmic Freeloading i.e.
using mother nature to facilitate space travel. Examples include
launching to the East from near the equator, using the moon's
gravitational field to pull the Apollo spacecraft in towards the
moon, using the gravitational field of the earth, Venus, Jupiter
to get Cassini to Saturn, using the earth's atmosphere to slow
down Apollo when it comes back to Earth,etc.

Cosmic freeloading is almost invariably ignored by the SETI
Cultists when they claim one can't get here from there. Perhaps
Genesis is really the beginning of some sense about using our
brains instead of our brawn.

See the Next MUFON Journal for my 'UFOs: Challenge to SETI
Specialists'


Stan Friedman








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              Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:49:17 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:53:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Acres


 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
 >Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
 >original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
 >found at:

 >http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

 >In addition a copy of the same pic from the microfilm archives
 >is posted along with it for comparative analysis. (Of course the
 >microfilm copy is of very poor quality).

 >Much thanks to Dr. Bruce Maccabee for his on going assistance in
 >evaluating the photograph.


Hi Frank, Errol, et al,

Boy now I'm really confused! This picture doesn't appear to be
altered from what I can see here.

Very fine work if it is!

But is it considered normal for all the beams to converge at the
same area? Could this negative have been taken from a touched up
photo?

I was convinced that this pic (LA Times) is cropped from the
other newspaper photo. AP was mentioned in one early article as
the original photo source. I emailed them but got no reply.
Perhaps someone with influence can try?

I don't know if you saw the post I did before, but it fits like
a glove! I put up a copy of a transparent overlay here:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/dacres/LAufoFAKE.jpg


Regards,

Dave









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                 Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:14:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:55:58 -0400
Subject: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? -


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:40:55 +1000
 >Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:03:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>As a student of the UFO phenomena I believe contact with E.T.s
 >>has already been made and we may event have documented proof
 >>too. This proof is the Bible.

 >>Nick Balaskas

 >Hi Nick, Errol and everybody.

 >After studying ancient writings & artworks, I believe you may be
 >correct! The only question that remains to me, is which Master
 >do they serve?

 >Peter Cook's excellent site, at:

 >http://www.bibleufo.com/

 >points out that the bible mentions God coming down from the
 >skies over 100 times. However there is no mention of Lucifer's
 >mob using the same mode of transport. There is a mention of him
 >taking Jesus up to a high place to tempt him, but no mention of
 >how they got up to the top of the temple.

 >Jacobs ladder dream sure sounds like a visitation from a UFO. In
 >fact. most of the Angelic visitations do!

 >Another example is the Watcher mentioned in DANIEL 4

 >13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a
 >WATCHER being a holy one came down from heaven;

 >23 And whereas the king saw a WATCHER being a holy one coming
 >down from heaven,

 >Although the available evidence points to these beings as
 >representatives of God. Some abductees testimony gives me
 >impression that there may be both good and bad Angels, just as
 >there are in the human race.

 >I'm curious whether many abductees have challenged the Aliens in
 >the name of Jesus?

 >Anyone know of any cases? Perhaps Morty could ask Bud Hopkins
 >for me?

<snip>

Hello Dave, List, EBK;

I've heard of a few but don't trust my memory. Budd will be up
on this mountain on Sunday to look over the place where my
perceived abduction occured, the last one.

I will ask him on your behalf.

In the one case which I recall, having read it in a book, which
also escapes my memory, the effect on the abductors was nill to
nought. My personal take is, and this is my opinion, I would not
believe anything these perceived entities said, told me,
predicted or defined. They are child molesters, kidnappers of
mind and body, and their words mean nothing.

What matters is getting to the bottom of the conundrum, nothing
more.

I will not forget to ask Budd when he arrives here and report
back.


Jim Mortellaro
aka Morty








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   Jul > Jul 19

                 Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 05:28:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:00:08 -0400
Subject: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone? -


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:52:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:40:55 +1000
 >>Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:03:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>>Subject: E.T. Contact By 2020 Or We Are Alone?

 >>>As a student of the UFO phenomena I believe contact with E.T.s
 >>>has already been made and we may event have documented proof
 >>>too. This proof is the Bible.

 >>>Nick Balaskas

 >>After studying ancient writings & artworks, I believe you may be
 >>correct! The only question that remains to me, is which Master
 >>do they serve?

 >The Artificial Intelligence (AI) analysis presented in my book
 >'Abduction In My Life' suggests that _we_ are the artificial
 >intelligence... hence a result of some Other Intelligence (OI).
 >
 >We have just learned of a virus being made from 'parts' (short
 >DNA segments) that you can buy off-the-shelf. This is yet
 >another step in reverse-engineering life.

 >One can easily imagine that OI hundreds or thousands of years
 >'older' than humans could engineer DNA much more complicated
 >than that of a virus.

 >The Creation/Darwin (CD) theory is that DNA experimentaiton by
 >OI produced species variations, whereas between diddlings,
 >mutation/natural selection occurred over hundreds or thousands
 >of years (OI has plenty of time to spend/waste waiting to see
 >the consequences of a particular DNA modification).

Without begging infinite regression such as if OI created us,
who created OI, there is another fascinating posibility that
comes from the hypothesis of Cosmic Ancestry which combines the
theories of panspermia and gaia.

To put all of this in perspective, the idea that genetic
information which developed and evolved elsewhere in the
universe and planted itself on earth through panspermia so as to
evolve organisms that are similar to organisms that have already
evolved on other planets might be the reason why intelligent,
artifact-making lifeforms elsewhere may be as human as those on
earth.

In fact neuroscientist and astrobiologist Dr. Rhawn Joseph makes
this bold statement on panspermia:

"The genetic seeds of life swarm throughout the cosmos, and
these genetic "seeds," these living creatures, fell to Earth,
encased in stellar debris which pounded the planet for 700
millions years after the creation.

And just as DNA contains the genetic instructions for the
creation of an embryo, neonate, child, and adult, and just as
modern day microbes contain "human genes" which have contributed
to the evolution of the human genome, these "seeds," these
living creatures, contained the DNA-instructions for the
metamorphosis of all life, including woman and man.

DNA acts to purposefully modify the environment, which acts on
gene selection, so as to fulfill specific genetic goals: the
dispersal and activation of silent DNA and the replication of
life forms that long ago lived on other planets. That it is life
itself that makes earth habitable is expressed in the Gaia
Hypothesis originated by James Lovelock. Earth did not have an
oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere until life itself manufactured it.

I have information that indicates genetic modification of humans
has taken place in the distant past, but the proof of such is
not an easy find. If, as you suggest, we are the AI of OI, a
distinct possibility, but not a necessary condition in the light
of semiotic and information theory that indicates that DNA is an
analog of a computer instruction set that triggers a message to
build proteins of specific varieties that eventually grow into a
living organism.

The real paradigm shift is to consider that the Universe as a
whole is a life-producing nursery and that the genesis and
evolution of life is not earth-centered but rather is
distributed among the stars and stardust of the galaxies.

-Bill Hamilton








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             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:13:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:57:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming


 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
 >Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >Hello All,

 >For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
 >original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
 >found at:

The most interesting thing about this photo to me is that the
spotlight beams appear to be blocked by the object; none of them
extend past it. This means that the object's width is at least
the diameter of the beams (assuming that the LA Times didn't
doctor the photo in anticipation of the post-war "UFO craze").

It seems to me this photo could be used to estimate the size of
the object from the size of the spotlight beams, which probably
were a foot or two in diameter at their base and have widened to
several times that size where they contact the object.

Off-hand, I'd say it appears quite a bit larger than a weather
balloon.







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              Re: Disney Researcher Joins Spy Agency - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:59:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney Researcher Joins Spy Agency - Cameron


Just following story of the July 8 death of Disney animator Walt
Kimball, and his 1979 disclosure that Walt Disney was recruited
to make a UFO documentary for the government, now we have a
story that the National Security Agency has recruited Walt
Disney Co.'s chief of research and development to become head of
research for the National Security Agency.

Eric Haseltine, the NSA recruit, spent 13 years at Hughes
Aircraft Co., before joining Disney Studios. There he managed
R&D projects including a project on his expertise - flight
simulation.

The Orlando Sentinel which carried the story of Haseltine's move
to the National Security Agency, states that both Disney and the
National Security Agency share an interest in secrecy and
recruiting top scientists. As reporter Richard Verrier describes
the situation,

"Both organizations include a diverse group of top-level
scientists and share a penchant for security and secrecy (Disney
won't say how many scientists it employees). There's a certain
institutional quality to the unmarked, drab buildings that make
up the sprawling Walt Disney Imagineering complex in Glendale,
Calif."

"Beyond developing innovative ride systems for theme parks,
Disney's research and development team also has expertise in
areas with military applications, including virtual-reality
technology and information systems. Disney scientists are at the
forefront of interactive TV and developing systems for
protecting the company against Internet piracy."

For the full story of the NSA recruitment of the top
Disney staffer see:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/orl-bizdisney17071702jul17.story
?coll=orl%2Dbusiness%2Dheadlines

Grant Cameron

Presidents UFO Site
White House E.T. Politics
www.presidentialufo.com







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   Jul > Jul 20

                 Seven Mutilated Animals in Yatai, Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:53:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:30:53 -0400
Subject: Seven Mutilated Animals in Yatai, Argentina


SOURCE: El Comercial (www.elcomercial.com.ar)
DATE: Friday, July 19, 2002


CATTLE MUTILATIONS CONTINUE

Seven mutilated animals in Yata=ED, totalling 21 in two months in
the field

Yesterday morning, livestock producer Luis Fernandez visited the
Colonia Yata=ED police barracks to report cases similar to those
which have been occurring with increasing frequency in our
province with regard to cattle mutilations. When the case became
known at the newsroom, "El Comercial" reported to scene. We were
welcomed by the officer in charge of the local police post,
senior subofficer Adolfo Salvador Valdez, who recounted what
transpired at the property of Luis Fernandez, who at 11:00 a.m.
presented the corresponding claim on the enigmatic deaths of 7
animals, identical to those reported in the media in different
parts of the country.

The chief of the local office of SENASA at Mision Laishi,
vetererinarian Ariel Llamas and his aide, followed by provincial
coordinator Dr. Alcides Serochi, also accompanied by another
doctor and two other persons, reached the site. With the arrival
of the Sheriff in charge of the operation, they headed toward
the field, 8 km distant from the police post along a rural rode
and over 60 km from the city of Formosa.  They entered the site
crossing an old washed-out road, swamps, mud, bridges and the
magnificent scene of a horizon filled with aquatic birds. The
entire landscape suggested that they were entering a location of
difficult access, and even the 4x4 vehicle had trouble. After
more than half an hour, they reached the central area of the
ranch owned by Luis Fernandez. They waited for the arrival of
Fernandez's son and serveral tenant farmers.

Once there, both the police delegation and SENASA envoys labored
jointly to look into the case. At that time, they had already
brought an animal to the central area of the ranch for analysis,
since it is impossible to transit the location on foot. They
displayed all of the parts of a calf, and the looks of
astonishment on the faces of the persons in charge of conducting
the research were evident. The same forms of cauterization on
the sides of the animals mouth, perfect incisions and no
bleeding, the absence of an eye--it was all remarkable once
again, due to the high skill with which "the Chupacabras"  had
done its work. As a tenant farmer remarked: "you can see that
the critter knows a lot about cows."

Dr. Ariel Llamas carried out a detailed examination of the head
that the tenant farmers brought over in order that the SENASA
technicians could see what have occured. He explained that they
showed the same conditions that he found not long ago at Laish=ED:
cauterization of the wounds, absence of an eye and the tongue,
as if the latter had been extracted from the animals mouth
through the underside of the mouth bone, with extreme care and
precision.

Over 10 backwoodsmen scoured the fields in search of "something
strange" or "that critter" without finding anything, "only the
usual" in an immense field covered by washouts and swams and the
animals of the area: constrictor snakes, curiyues, yacares,
water fowl, pumas, bears, armadilloes and cows.

The field also holds the animals of another person, a friend of
Fernandez, totalling approximately 1400 animals on the site.
Five of the ones mutilated during the course of this week belong
to Roberto Rafael Rango and the remainder to Luis Fernandez.
Both stated that "in the past two months 21 animals died under
strange conditions."

After performing several studies, it was noted that the animals'
hides presented a total lack of coloration, almost bordering on
the transparent. Comparisons were made with other hides and it
can see that the difference was complete, since the hide of a
sacrificed animal is normally opaque and hard. The animals'
flesh was brought to the central area of the ranch "to feed the
dogs with" and it was an astonishment to all that not even the
dogs, who are used to eating "anything they can get," would
partake of the meat.

It was also remarkable how swiftly [the meat] turned black, and
"not even flies" came close to it. The explanation was not even
remotely offered by the SENASA technicians on site, nor did they
offer details about the event. They merely restricted themselves
to corroborating Fernandez's claim, "looking in detail" at the
evidence and to  pour cold water over everything else. To the
locals, "this is the handiwork of the unknown," since they were
disconcerted at not being able to find anything after their
exhaustive search.

Fernandez made it clear that he had seen many strange things in
his life, "but nothing like this...an animal bled to death in
such a way I cannot imagine, nor can I understand why the dogs
won't eat the meat. They way the hide looks, the incisions in
the mouth and how they too everything out of the animal without
it being noticeable at the site, and not even a sign of
resistance."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi







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   Jul > Jul 20

                   Argentina: Cows Found Inside Water Tank

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:04:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:32:59 -0400
Subject: Argentina: Cows Found Inside Water Tank


SOURCE: El Diario del Sur de Cordoba-Villa Maria
DATE: Tuesday, July 9, 2002


Cows Found Inside a Water Tank

The Strange Case of Suco, Investigated by El Diario

On the last Friday of June 2002, an event of truly strange
characteristics took place in a field of the locality of Suco,
located to the west of Rio Cuarto, very near the border with San
Luis Province. In the aforementioned Cordoban locality, a well-
known livestock producer respected by all for his responsibility
and honesty, found 19 dead animals within an Australian-type
water tank  (translators note: steel-sided, sheet metal tank
with a conical cap). Nine of the bovines were dead, according to
subsequent medical-veterinarian examinations due to asphyxiation
through immersion. The rest were alive, but affected by the low
temperatures and near dead due to freezing.

The news not only spread like wildfire throughout the area: it
was confirmed by police officials of Regional Unit 7,
headquartered at Rio Cuarto, who took over the investigation of
the case employing personnel from the Sampacho District
Sheriff's Office, located 50 kilometers west of Rio Cuarto on
National Hwy. 8.

What no one could explain is how the 19 animals could have
entered the enormous water tank, bearing in mind that they first
had to cross an electric drover (sic), then a 1.50 meter tall
fence, and finally, "jump" over the tank wall.

Two days alter, in a field bordering the first one, the
farmhands and owners of the property found a cow that showed the
same signs of mutilations suffered by bovines in ranches of
Buenos Aires, La Pampa, Mendoza, Southern Cordoba, etc. This
time, the mutilated animal had given birth to a calf, although
it was stressed that only the mother was affected in this case,
showing burns and precise incisions in different parts of the
carcass, as though experts had deftly used a special type of
scalpel. These cases, according to the statements of a
veterinarian named Cumin, who lives in Sampacho, have been
investigated from the onset by specialists from the School of
Veterinary Medicine of the National University of Rio Cuarto,
althought they have not received any report that allows them to
explain what has really happened.

Those who have dedicated themselves to the possible existence of
other forms of life, of UFOs and their consequences, posited the
challenging possibility that what they term "teleportations"
occured in this case, thus "explaining" how a lot of 19 animals
of large size and weight could have been conveyed by an unknown
force from a common and accustomed place (a cow pen) to a
strange one (the interior of a water tank), an action that is
illogical in both method and objective.

If so, these repeated events do away with the efforts aimed at
explaining the events and which lay the blame on both "red-
muzzled mice" and "carnivorous bees" and "cattle rustlers".  It
was acknowledged yesterday that a pasture owner in La Silleta,
Province of Salta, found a dead pig showing the characteristics
of a mutilated animal, lacking maxillaries, tongue or eyes.

This is how veterinarian Juan Carlos Gimenez Monje discussed the
subject. He visited the farm after receiving a call from the
owner and added: "I took the animal over to SENASA in Salta and
they sent it off to Buenos Aires." The veterinarian explains the
situation as being due to the fact that "the agricultural
producers stopped using herbicides because of the high cost,
then vermin and wild animals can reoccupy the fields once more.
Agricultural activity," he added, "consists of zero farming
nowadays, and the plough, which used to destroy rodent burrows,
no longer enters the fields."

What the expert could not explain was how wild animals could
extract the organs in the fashion detailed earlier, with precise
cuts, and further having cauterized the wounds.

=======================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology

Special thanks to Alicia Rossi & Jorge Luis Gorno
Villa Maria UFO Research Group.








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   Jul > Jul 20

                Large Owls Attack Aircraft, People and Cattle

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:23:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:36:17 -0400
Subject: Large Owls Attack Aircraft, People and Cattle


SOURCE: El Universal (Mexico City)
DATE: Thursday, July 18,

Large Owls Attack Aircraft, People and Cattle in a Serbian Town


Several aircraft engaged in crop dusting in the region of
Pozarevac in northeastern Serbia were attacked by enormous owls
in daylight hours--an unprecedented event in the locality.

In the town of Veliki Popovac, in the Mlava River valley near
the Danube, huge owls fly around during the day and as soon as
they hear an airplane approach, hurl themselves against it, said
sources.

Olga Obradovic, a planter from Veliki Popovac, told the B92
radio station that the owls are nesting closer to communities in
recent months and even in attics and stables.

The birds have expelled swallows from the region and farmers
think it is a bad omen. The townspeople believe that anyone who
kills a swallow will be punished with the death of their mother,
daughter or a close relative.

According to the Glas newspaper, the locals believe that it is
an act of retribution for the neglect of certain abandoned
churches, covered with vegetation. A newspaper reporter sent to
the area says that enormous owls are attacking cattle in the
afternoon, prompting shepherds to bring their herds in before
sundown.

A local vet suggested that this event is being caused by
increasingly powerful solar radiation due to the destruction of
the ozone layer. Area residents believe that the north winds
bring fine dust from radioactive mineral heaps in Romania,
considered an unscrupulous country in environmental matters, due
to economic reasons. They think the radiation may have caused
genetic changes in the owl population, who probably perceive
aircraft as prey to be attacked, and hence their attraction
toward crop-dusters. (NOTIMEX).


=======================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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                    Mutilated Calf in Bragado, Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:48:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:39:50 -0400
Subject: Mutilated Calf in Bragado, Argentina


A Mutilated Calf found in Bragado

"Found in a field located in the town of Rauch Viejo " Died a
natural death and was found mutilated 2 days alter

A calf was found mutilated in the town of Bragado (Prov. of
Buenos Aires) and the subject was discussed by several local
residents.

The event was confirmed yesterday morning and it took place in a
ranch located in the Rauch Viejo quarter, more precisely at the
Estancia Maria Magdalena, owned by the Vaccarezza family.

Our newspaper reported to the scene and in a conversation with
Mr. Oscar Latorre, we were led to the site where the lifeless
animal lay, and where it was found by Latorre himself.. He
explained that the animal died approximately 15 days ago,
apparently intoxicated. "The animal died constipated," he
remarked.

He stated that he was able to see the animal with signs of
mutilation on Monday morning and that he has no doubt "that it
could be a rodent, given the tracks I found."

What is most extraordinary about this case is the fact that the
animal has been dead for 15 days yet "does not present any signs
of decomposition and has not been devoured by vultures nor
foxes, who are frequently seen around this area, " said Latorre.
On site, we were able to ascertain that the animal was missing
its tongue, eyes or ears (Photo 3) and had perforations in the
anal area (Photo 4).

======================================================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi.







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   Jul > Jul 20

                           Rendlesham Breakthrough

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:52:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:19:21 -0400
Subject: Rendlesham Breakthrough


Dear All,

This e-mail is to inform you all that Eric Morris, myself and
others will be making an important announcement here, and
elsewhere, about the Rendlesham Forest case as soon as possible.

We think it is of great significance and we know you will be
intrigued by this new development.


Best wishes,

Tim Matthews








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                  Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:24:45 -0400
Subject: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy


RG Note: This is an interesting one. I love how nameless, ID
less people can claim to be anybody, in this case "CIA" and
people buy the story. Even more interesting is the 'US author'
that is a 'her' that wanted to write a book with Colin and he
declined it because he thought it was a scheme to access his
personal data base. Personally I would think it would be fairly
easy to put a name with the guy who was "studying foxes" as this
guy is supposedly fingered as the CIA guy.

If Colin Andrews is reading this List, one would appreciate
any comment he would have on the Michael Irving post

Any of our UK readers/researchers care to comment on this one?

---

Begin Colin Andrews/alleged CIA post

Source: Rense.com

http://rense.com/general27/cia.htm

How The CIA Tried To Thwart Crop Circles And Colin Andrews
 From Michael Irving
World-Action
michaeli@globalnet.co.uk
Rumor Mill News Reading Room Forum

7-19-2

Colin Andrews was the world's leading authority on Crop
Patterns, right from the time this amazing phenomenon came onto
the world's stage in the mid 1980s. I knew Colin personally, and
I am totally sure the plan described by Colin, below, was later
completely executed. Colin Andrews now wouldn't be able to tell
you the truth on the ET origins of Crop Patterns even he wanted
to. If he did, he'd probably have the shortest life expectancy
of anyone on Earth.

I, myself, was 'taken out' by character defamation. Pat Delgado
was set up, and his spirit never recovered. Colin Andrews was
forced out, as described below.

'Cosmic Top Secret' - The Unseen Agenda
By Jon King
Editor of UFO Reality (UK) 1998/1999.
New English Library
Hodder & Stoughton
ISBN 0 340 70822 0
Pages: 279-287
___

File 28: Appendix 01 Part 2
Case Profile: Cosmic Top-X32
'The CIA And The Crop Circles'

[JK = Jon King, CA = Colin Andrews]

JK: So, Colin. Can you think of any other instances where
government agents have become involved in the crop circles
research programme?

CA: Yes, yes, I can. One instance in particular comes to mind. A
man who announced himself as working for the CIA back in, I
think, June or July of 1989, approached me and said he had been
assigned to 'bring me into a plan', or more precisely, 'buy me
into a plan'. He said this was the sole reason he'd come to
England - that his assignment was to implement and execute this
plan in which I was to be involved.

JK: And did he tell you what this plan was?

CA: He did, yes. He told me that certain individuals, all of
whom you know, Jon - Richard Andrews, Terence Meaden, Pat
Delgado, to name a few - he told me that the CIA were about to
promote each major researcher in turn and then publicly debunk
them. He said this was a ploy that was frequently used. He said
they would give them a stage, encourage them to declare their
hand and, one by one, take them out. He said that I would then
be left with a 'role' that he later revealed to me.

JK: How did this man make his approach? How did he contact you?

CA: Well, when he first arrived, Pat and I were asked to go up
to Pebble Mill television studios in Birmingham to take part in
a programme called Daytime Live. It was a kind of live TV debate
situation. They were going to air the sequence that contained
the mysterious sound detected in a crop formation and recorded
by the BBC - the sound that destroyed a hundred thousand pounds'
worth of TV camera one sunny afternoon at a crop circle site in
Wiltshire! As we came on air, they were running this particular
sequence. Anyway, on the morning of the programme we were in our
hotel, and we received a phone call from David Morgenstern of
the BBC who said that they had received some communication from
a man who claimed he had actually seen a crop circle being
formed, and what questions should they ask that would allow them
to know if he was telling the truth? So we gave them some
questions that we thought would be helpful. When we arrived at
the studios we were told that this man had been flown directly
in to Birmingham and that we would not be able to meet him
because they wanted it to be an absolutely first-time contact on
air. As we came on air they panned to the studio audience, and
this man described what he'd seen, live on TV.

JK: What exactly did he say?

CA: That he'd been out studying foxes in Scotland, and that one
of the foxes on this particular night had refused to follow its
regular path which, he explained, was not consistent with the
usual behaviour of foxes. I don't know if this is right or not,
but it sounded plausible. The fox apparently refused to go any
further and instead went back the way it had come. The man then
apparently heard some rustling, and then he described the way
this circle formed. What he was saying is that the fox had
presumably sensed something strange and that after it had
scampered off he witnessed the formation of this circle. But the
point is that his live TV appearance seemed to legitimize him.

JK: You think this was his way of becoming accepted on the crop
circle scene?

CA: Right. From that moment on his being seen in the presence of
the crop circle researchers - myself and Pat in particular -
  became acceptable. It was his 'way in', so to speak.

JK: So what happened next?

CA: Well, some weeks later there was a rap on my door, and when
I answered it I immediately recognized the man standing there.
It was the 'fox-study' man. He said that he'd come to tell me
something ... he wanted me to get Pat Delgado over to my place
because he wanted to talk to both of us. Pat lived about
seventeen miles away. It was late at night but I phoned him and
he agreed to come over. When he arrived the man spent all
evening into the early hours with both of us, asking question
after question. He appeared to be comparing the answers I gave
against those that Pat gave. Well, perhaps not surprisingly, Pat
eventually grew more and more frustrated, and said to the man:
'Look, exactly what have you come to tell us?' But the man just
shook his head, as if to say: 'I'm not ready to tell you yet.'
So Pat just stood up and said something like: 'Well, I've got
better things to do with my time,' and headed out the door and
went home. He was very angry. The guy accompanied me to the door
to see Pat out (I didn't know whether he was going to leave as
well - I was rather hoping he would, because I was pretty bloody
angry about it, too) but as Pat left and I closed the door the
man just spun round on me and said: 'Get your jacket on. I want
to tell you something.' So against my better judgement I went
through into the front room and told my wife I was popping out
for a few minutes (I wanted to tell her so she didn't become
worried). We then went out.

JK: Where did you go at that time of night?

CA: We wandered down towards Andover town centre, then back up
Salisbury Road, back and forth, back and forth, questions and
more questions, most of a fairly general nature, but none of the
questions were about me. Rather they were to do with things
like, you know: Where were the circles? Who were we in touch
with? What did we know, particularly about the Russians? That
kind of thing. He was asking every question you could possibly
think of that an intelligence agent would probably ask. But the
conversation wasn't going anywhere at all. As for myself I was
furious, but I didn't quite have the courage to walk away.

JK: But presumably at some point he told you what it was he'd
come to tell you?

CA: Yes. When we eventually started to walk back towards my home
he stopped on the pavement and said: 'You are now one of us.' So
I said: 'What do you mean by that?' He said, simply: 'CIA.' When
I asked him for ID he just laughed and said: 'You really think a
CIA agent would carry identification?' And then he laughed
again. He told me I would never see his boss, and that he never
saw his boss's boss. He said that was the way it worked. He said
that from here on in I was 'one of them'. He gave me no say in
the matter whatever. He never asked me if I wanted to be
associated with the CIA - he just told me that from then on I
was to consider myself one of them. Following this he named a
lot of people - most of whom were my colleagues in crop circle
research - who were to be eliminated from the research programme
(he did not mean that they were to be killed or anything quite
like that, but they were nevertheless to be taken off the stage,
so to speak). And they have been. I have watched the process in
operation for some years now - a process he openly told me about
on that night. And every name he named that night has since been
'got at', and everything that he said would happen has happened.

JK: Could you give us an example?

CA: Well, for instance, the following year Terence Meaden was
never out of the newspapers. Nobody else could get a look in.
This is exactly what he told me would happen. But where is
Terence Meaden now? Who knows what Terence Meaden's latest ideas
are? Answer: no one. Because, presumably, his stage has been
taken from him - he's been 'taken out'. Pat Delgado was next,
and we all know what happened to him.

[Author's note: sadly, Pat Delgado was so taken in by the 'Doug
And Dave' episode, and so distraught because of it, that he
retired from crop circle research soon thereafter.]

JK: Do you think there was a reason why you weren't 'taken out',
too? Did this man indicate why you should be singled out from
the rest?

CA: He did, yes. The CIA guy told me that, so far as they were
concerned, I seemed to have a particular affinity and contact
with the public. 'You have a way,' is what he said. The public
identify with you.'

JK: And at the time, of course, you were getting a lot of media
coverage.

CA: Yes, I was. There were really only two people in those days,
Pat and myself. We'd written a book and it had sold a lot of
copies. We were getting a lot of TV and radio coverage. But a
decision seemed to be made that night that I was the one. I
mean, if you look at it logically, it could have been either one
of us. So this man must have been in a position to make a
decision. He must have carried some authority within his agency.

JK: Right.

CA: So he chose me to go with this 'role' ...

JK: And what was this 'role'?

CA: Once they had taken these other researchers out of the
frame, so to speak, they wanted me to do something for them. He
said I was to carry on being Colin Andrews, researching the
phenomenon, just doing my thing, and at some point in the near
future I would be asked to do one interview which would enjoy
maximum, saturated media coverage. During the course of this
interview I was to make one statement, and one statement only.
They wanted me to state publicly that the crop circle phenomenon
was a hoax. When we got back to my home he said that he would
show me how to say it and what to say. In return for this I was
offered a bank account in Switzerland, in which would be enough
money that I would never need to even think about money ever
again. On top of this he said that they were in possession of
some kind of 'instrument' which they would send to me within two
weeks. He said that this instrument would allow me to identify
immediately a real crop circle from a hoax - something that,
presumably, could measure some or other microwave residue, or
some other residual effect. He told me: 'You will then be in a
privileged position, and we will put you right out there as the
number one crop circle expert.' He then said that they would
send me to a certain college. . . (which I know to be a
government establishment, so my ears pricked up at this point).
. . where you will be familiarized with coding structures. I
mean, this is an absolute bloody horror story I'm hearing ... I
mean, I was . . . God, no one will ever know how I felt that
night. I was terrified. I even cried. I was completely and
utterly bloody freaked. I even saw my daughter the next day and
I broke down while I was talking to her, too. I said to her:
'Darling, I want you to forget everything I've ever told you
about crop circles. I think I'm in terrible trouble. You know,
I'm in bloody trouble.' Of course, she didn't know what I was
talking about but I just wanted my family out of it. It took
everything I knew to get over that ordeal and carry on a
relatively normal life . . . (At this point Colin took a few
moments to himself. It was obvious that the ordeal had affected
him very deeply - indeed, that the memory was as painful as the
ordeal itself. A short while later we resumed.)

CA: ... So anyway ... I was told that there would be another
couple of contacts made and that these would be 'voice-only'
contacts via the telephone. And sure enough they phoned me, but
by this time I'd had time to think about the situation and I'd
decided I was going to take his head off, you know. There was no
way I was going to give them what they wanted.

JK: So what did you do?

CA: I was given a contact number at the Ministry of Defence and
I rang that number and told them that I'd had this approach, but
I was told they had no jurisdiction. Can you believe that? A
British subject was being harassed by a member of US
Intelligence and the MoD had no jurisdiction to protect me! My
God! I mean, it really made me ashamed to be British. Anyway,
they also told me that I was not to be concerned, that I should
simply refuse to cooperate with them. They said that if I
refused to go along with it there should not be any danger to
me. Hah! I thought: Thanks for the invaluable assistance!'

JK: And is that what you did?

CA: In the event, yes. That's precisely what I did. I literally
ignored the phone calls. And I guess, in retrospect, it might
just have saved my life, the fact that I'd contacted the MoD.
Perhaps they have a little more jurisdiction than they admitted
to. Perhaps the fact that I contacted the MoD meant that the CIA
dared not harm me in any way.

JK: So how did you know which calls to ignore? How did you know
it was them?

CA: Oh, it was them, all right. The guy was on the answer
machine saying: 'Pick up the phone. Pick up the phone.' But I
didn't. I just let it go. Then the voice said: 'Ring me back at
this number.' And then they gave a number, but I didn't ring
back. A few days later they phoned again, and this time what
they said was vile, and frightening. But my answer was: 'Sorry,
I'm not playing.' And that was that so far as I was concerned.
Like I said, perhaps they knew I'd contacted the MoD. Maybe,
just maybe, this was enough for them to leave me alone.

JK: Have you had similar approaches since you moved to America?

CA: Well, nothing quite like that. But I have certainly been
approached, yes. A computer analyst at the Pentagon, for
example, approached me with a person called [name deleted]
Pretty soon this woman, [name deleted], sought [name deleted]
out and asked to see her in her office. Now this meant that my
new office - which I used to share with [name deleted] - had
already been infiltrated by people who we now know for sure were
CIA. I have since had several approaches by both of these
people.

JK: Sounds like someone was pretty desperate to gain access to
your database.

CA: Absolutely. That's the only possible answer. Well, I know
that's what it was all about. They told me so. For instance,
[name deleted], who is an author in the US, offered that I
should co-author a book with her and she went to every extreme
in order to get me to agree. She wanted to work with me on the
project in my office here in Connecticut, which of course would
have allowed her unlimited access to my database. But again, I
turned the offer down.

JK: Well, thank you for being so frank, Colin. I'm sure you've
opened a lot of people's minds about the ways in which the
world's intelligence agencies work and about just how seriously
they view the UFO and crop circle phenomena. Thanks once again.

CA: My pleasure.

http://www.world-action.co.uk/conspire.html

WHAT HAPPENED TO COLIN

They got to him. Colin Andrews was taken out of the Crop Pattern
scene. All of us in the Wiltshire area of southern England knew
that ET was making the original Crop Patterns and, at the end of
the 1980s, even though Colin was being very scientifically
cautious, we knew that he knew too - and we were just waiting
for him to reveal to the world the immediate presence of ET in
and around the Earth - everywhere. They must have found some way
to get to Colin. In the mid 1990s, it was revealed that Colin
had suddenly started working for a Rockefeller foundation and
had been given a vast fund and/or salary. Colin was a man of
principle - that is why we all liked him so much. Obviously they
found a way to coerce Colin to keep quiet about the ET
connection. Colin travelled to the USA a lot. Perhaps it was
during one of these USA visits. Colin had to be silenced. 100s
of millions of people worldwide had become interested in the
'out-of-this-world' Crop Patterns - they were not going to waste
50 years concerted effort to confuse us about the reality we
live in, to let just one single man change the course of
history.


Michael Irving
19th July 2002
World-Action British Isles
http://www.world-action.co.uk

---

Cheers,

Robert








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                Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:14:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:26:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post - White


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:26:16 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:50:01 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:11:05 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Letter-to-Editor Washington Post

 ><snip>

 >>And picketing isn't "cheap" - it requires sacrifice on the part
 >>of the activists.

 >Eleanor:

 >That's why it's used by organizers of all kinds to generate
 >commitment by the faithful. In this school of community action,
 >it's the "action" that's important, not the success or failure
 >of the "community".

 >Surely the action we're thinking about, by a tiny handful, only
 >served to call attention to the real lack of interest of the
 >claimed "80%" of the population who are said to believe, or it
 >pointed out the stunning incompetence of the "organizers".

 >Take your pick; either way it was a flop.

Well, each back-and-forth rocking of a car stuck in a snow bank
is a flop, until the one that gets you out.


Eleanor White








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              Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:29:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Novak


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:49:17 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison


 >I don't know if you saw the post I did before, but it fits like
 >a glove! I put up a copy of a transparent overlay here:

 >http://home.austarnet.com.au/dacres/LAufoFAKE.jpg


I agree. Something is not right here.

I am still quite convinced that somewhere along the line the
photo has been altered. The comparison done using the photo I
provided practicaly proves this beyond doubt. The lights simply
cannot just stop at the point of convergence without an opaque
object of a large enough size there to stop them.

At the very least it should be apparent there is not any object
of such size. I have renewed my efforts to find the source for
the second photo. With luck, something will turn up.








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:03:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:30:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:28:17 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:46:04 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:27:33 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

Hi, John,

I've snipped out most of your posting, including my own comments
I was preparing in a first draft, to get to the essential point,
which is:

 >I still don't contend that these photos are fakes, I don't have
 >the evidence for that, but I think there are a number of
 >questions over them which need answering.

If this had been your point all along - which it wasn't, but no
matter - we wouldn't be having this discussion. _Of course_ all
of us would like to have all relevant information, including
that concerning the exact number of observers, including full
witness statements, and the like, in hand. As I have said, this
information so far has not been made available, at least in
English translation, and the answers very likely lie in
Brazilian Navy files. I and others have encouraged our Brazilian
colleagues - all of whom, I am sorry to say, have kept silent so
far-- to see what they can do to obtain the information that
would answer the questions.all of us want answered.

So let us end this discussion on a note of agreement. The moral
of the story is this:

If an American ufologist and a British psychosocial ufologist
can at long last find common ground, why can't other warring
tribes in the world, such as [fill in blank, citing peoples
currently shooting at and/or bombing each other], do the same?
Ah, if only the people of this suffering planet would follow the
fine example set by ufologists....


Cordially,

Jerry Clark








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                        Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes

From: Bob Pratt <bobpratt@gate.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:39:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:32:52 -0400
Subject: Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes


Hello,

This is to inform you that I have made a few changes in my web
site:

http://www.bobpratt.org

hoping to make the headlines on my stories more understandable.

Months after going online I realized that what was obvious to me
is not necessarily obvious to others. So I have added a line to
all the headlines, hoping viewers will better understand what a
story is about.

In addition, I have added a links page (at the bottom of the
opening page), hoping to repay the kindness of many of you who
added my site to their links page.


Thank you,

Bob Pratt








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                    Kinross/Sault Ste. Marie Missing F-89

From: Gord Heath <gwheath@shaw.ca>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:48:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:39:45 -0400
Subject: Kinross/Sault Ste. Marie Missing F-89


Kinross F-89 Mystery Continues =96 Canadian National Defence
search produces no records of wreckage

An access to Information request filed by Gord Heath of Surrey
BC has yielded no records within Canadian National Defence
concerning wreckage found in 1968 near Sault Ste. Marie.

The Access to Information request relates to an unsolved
disappearance of an USAF F-89 and crew over the middle of Lake
Superior on November 23, 1953 while the jet was on an air
defence mission from Kinross Air Force Base in Michigan.

The aircraft was observed to merge with the pursued unidentified
aircraft on radar. The F-89 was then lost from the radar scope.

No trace of the F-89 or crew was ever found (except the alleged
discovery of the tail and other parts in 1968).

The USAF first identified the unidentified craft as a Canadian
Airliner heading for Sault Ste. Marie.

In the official accident report, the aircraft was identified as
an RCAF C-47 that was off course over Lake Superior. The RCAF
has issued denials that their aircraft was involved in this
incident.

The response from Judith Mooney, Director of Access to
Information and Privacy at National Defence Headquarters in
Ottawa states:


=93This is to acknowledge receipt of your Access to Information
Act requested received on June 25, 2002, for: records pertaining
to an aircraft that was found in the area near Cozens Cove and
Alona Bay, north of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, as reported by
the Sault Daily Star in Sault Ste. Marie, on October 30, 1968.

We have to advise you that a search for all records requested,
using the Department=92s best efforts, has resulted in a nil
reply.=94


This reply appears to confirm that no one in the Canadian
government is able to provide any information that would help to
identify the aircraft wreckage found near Sault Ste. Marie back
in 1968. Repeated requests to the National Transportation Safety
Board for the identity of the aircraft parts received no
response.

I find it a little strange that the government seems unable to
provide any sort of response to shed light on the identity of
the parts that were found in 1968.

I have reason to believe that the parts found near Alona Bay in
1968 did originate from the missing F-89. Given the history of
official response to this case, I am not the least surprised
that the Canadian government has been unable to provide any
information about the identity of these recovered aircraft
parts.

But these parts never existed. The Sault Daily Star never
published such a story. The OPP never investigated this story.
Likewise, Moncla and Wilson never existed. They never boarded
the non-existent F-89 from the non-existent USAF base in
northern Michigan. They never encountered the =93Canadian
Airliner=94 or the RCAF (C-47), Serial No. VC-912, over the middle
of Lake Superior on Nov. 23rd, 1953. If this sounds a like a
1984 screenplay to you, then perhaps George Orwell was a more
accurate visionary than he receives credit for.


Gord Heath,

Surrey, BC



-------------------------------------------------------

Note: Original Sault Daily Star article follows:

--------------------------------------------------------

The Sault Daily Star

Sault Ste. Marie. Canada Wednesday, October 30, 1968


Do Aircraft Parts Belong to Lost F-89?

It is possible aircraft parts discovered Tuesday by two Cozen=92s
Cove area prospectors could be the wreckage of an F-89 Scorpion
jet interceptor.

Provincial Police today identified the tail section taken from
aircraft parts discovered Tuesday as military. The remnant is
made of heavier metal than normally used in aircraft, an OPP
spokesman said. The prospectors found the parts near Cozen=92s
Cove, 70 miles north of here.

United States Air Force personnel in November 1953 lost contact
with the ill-fated Scorpion about 160 miles north of the
Kincheloe air base during a routine investigation of a UFO which
later turned out to be a Canadian Air Force C-47.

Sometime later, Algoma Central Railway workers reported hearing
a crash that could have been caused by the F-89, according to
Sault Star files. The railway workers heard the sound only about
100 miles from the Sault.

This week two prospectors stumbled over the aircraft parts in
the bush around the Cozens Cove, Alona Bay area.

The heavier than usual metal could have been from a jet
aircraft, a spokesman at the Sault federal airport said early
this afternoon. =93Some parts are (heavier) because of the heat
intensity.=94

Reports of the 1953 air mystery indicate the Scorpion was last
recorded at an altitude of 8,000 feet. If the plane exploded,
parts would scatter for miles.

Searchers combed the area from Whitefish Point up around the
north shore of Lafe Superior, but turned up no sign of the F-89.

The possibility that the parts discovered by the two prospectors
could have been from air-targets used eight or 10 years ago by
Canadian ground forces or by the USAF seems unlikely, although
police are checking this angle.

Both a spokesman at Kincheloe and a Canadian militia spokesman
who has experience with the air targets this morning felt the
description of the aircraft parts and the location where they
were found was a poor indication they were target pieces.

A third possibility that it could be the remains of a Cessna 170
lost along north shore of Lake Superior in 1964 has cropped up,
but the craft is listed as private.


Content of Access to Information Request

On October 30, 1968, the Sault Daily Star newspaper in Sault
Ste. Marie, Ontario reported that the tail and other parts from
an aircraft were found in the bush near Cozens Cove and Alona
Bay north of Sault Ste. Marie. The article indicated that the
tail had been identified by OPP ar originating from a military
aircraft. The article indicated the parts may have been from a
USAF Northrop F-89C =93Scorpion=94 fighter-interceptor jet, which
had disappeared over the middle of Lake Superior on November
23rd, 1953. I am trying to determine if these parts were from
the missing F-89 or were from some other aircraft. I have made
inquiries to Transport Canada about the recovered parts but they
seem to have no record of them. The specific information I am
seeking is:

1) list of parts found at this site

2) type of aircraft

3) serial numbers and other descriptive information on parts

4) current location of recovered parts








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             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:01:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:09:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:49:17 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
 >>Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
 >>original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
 >>found at:

 >>http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

 >>In addition a copy of the same pic from the microfilm archives
 >>is posted along with it for comparative analysis. (Of course the
 >>microfilm copy is of very poor quality).

 >>Much thanks to Dr. Bruce Maccabee for his on going assistance in
 >>evaluating the photograph.

 >Hi Frank, Errol, et al,

 >Boy now I'm really confused! This picture doesn't appear to be
 >altered from what I can see here.

 >Very fine work if it is!

 >But is it considered normal for all the beams to converge at the
 >same area? Could this negative have been taken from a touched up
 >photo?

 >I was convinced that this pic (LA Times) is cropped from the
 >other newspaper photo. AP was mentioned in one early article as
 >the original photo source. I emailed them but got no reply.
 >Perhaps someone with influence can try?

 >I don't know if you saw the post I did before, but it fits like
 >a glove! I put up a copy of a transparent overlay here:

 >http://home.austarnet.com.au/dacres/LAufoFAKE.jpg


Hi Dave,

I don't believe the picture was altered in any way, aside from
losing quality in a newspaper format. As evidenced by the
article to which the photo first appeared, ( Feb. 26, 1942) it
was labeled a "Times photo." In addition, I retrieved my print
from their archives.

If you look closely at the photo, you'll notice that two of the
beams behind the object do indeed go past it, as well as another
on the right side.


Cheers,

Frank










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             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:20:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:42:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren


 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:13:46 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
 >>>Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>>Hello All,

 >>>For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
 >>>original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
 >>>found at:

 >>The most interesting thing about this photo to me is that the
 >>spotlight beams appear to be blocked by the object; none of them
 >>extend past it. This means that the object's width is at least
 >>the diameter of the beams (assuming that the LA Times didn't
 >>doctor the photo in anticipation of the post-war "UFO craze").

 >>It seems to me this photo could be used to estimate the size of
 >>the object from the size of the spotlight beams, which probably
 >>were a foot or two in diameter at their base and have widened to
 >>several times that size where they contact the object.

 >>Off-hand, I'd say it appears quite a bit larger than a weather
 >>balloon.

Hi Lan,

Actually, if you look closely, two beams do "extend past it". In
addition, there is a third beam, off to the right, that can be
seen above the object.

You bring up a good point about the size of the spot light
beams. Also, there were altitudes mentioned in the the newspaper
accounts in the days that followed the event. Perhaps with that
info, along with more specifics on the spot lights, one might
be able to better estimate the size of the object. In addition,
I'm researching the type of camera used, etc., the name of the
photographer, as well as going on the assumption that there was
more then one picture taken!


Cheers,

Frank








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                        Lakenheath Teletype Reports?

From: Yasunori Kuramoto <mulder@din.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:34:03 +0900
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:14:26 -0400
Subject: Lakenheath Teletype Reports?


Hello, everyone,

I looked at Lakenheath teletype reports, BOI-485 and IDO-7335,
in Bluebook microfilm, but they are very obscure.

Are they shown anywhere? I want to read these teletypes.


Y. Kuramoto








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                 Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:35:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:17:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs - Maccabee


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:25:44 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs

 >>From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:16:49 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Disney, Ward Kimball, & UFOs

 >>Dear Fellow List Fiends,

 >>I note that Ward Kimball's presentation at the 1979 MUFON gaggle
 >>isn't included in the Proceedings volume. Is this because it was
 >>given 'off-line' or....?

 >>Does a transcript or other written/audio record exist?

 >Ward went first that Saturday evening July 7,with his
 >presentation and a short Jonathan Winters Movie. Then Allen
 >Hynek with his paper and then me. Allen's and my papers are in
 >the Proceedings. It is my recollection that the Kimball
 >presentation was an extra added attraction. I don't know if
 >anybody recorded it. I did the advance publicity for the
 >symposium and cannot recall mentioning Ward in the first or
 >second press release, though there was a major effort to attract
 >those locals, who could not spend the weekend, to this special
 >after dinner event. We had about 1000 people.

I vaguely recall a request, before Kimball's talk, that no one
photograph or videotape the film itself, as if Kimball wanted to
keep it proprietary (his property). I doubt that there was a
request to not audio tape his talk. Of course, there could be a
tape recording somewhere 'out there' in someone's archive.

We only have about 1,000 people, most of whom we don't know, to
ask!









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                 Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:52:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:20:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison -


 >From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:49:17 +1000
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
 >>Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
 >>original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
 >>found at:

 >>http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

 >>In addition a copy of the same pic from the microfilm archives
 >>is posted along with it for comparative analysis. (Of course the
 >>microfilm copy is of very poor quality).

 >>Much thanks to Dr. Bruce Maccabee for his on going assistance in
 >>evaluating the photograph.


 >Hi Frank, Errol, et al,

 >Boy now I'm really confused! This picture doesn't appear to be
 >altered from what I can see here.

 >Very fine work if it is!

 >But is it considered normal for all the beams to converge at the
 >same area? Could this negative have been taken from a touched up
 >photo?

If there was a stationary object in the sky and all the
searchlight operators were pointing their beams toward it, it
seems reasonable that all the beams would coincide/intersect at
the object. What is realloy interesting is that there appears to
be very little, if any light that got past the object. The
implication here is that whatever was at the common point for
the searchlights was "optically dense." Could the smoke be that
dense or was there a soloid object. As Shakespeare would have
said.... "that is the question". (Along with a bunch of other
questions.)










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                 Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:02:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:28:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:13:46 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:01:51 -0700
 >>Subject: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>Hello All,

 >>For those of you interested, a copy of the print taken from the
 >>original negative of the infamous "Battle of L.A." pic can be
 >>found at:

 >The most interesting thing about this photo to me is that the
 >spotlight beams appear to be blocked by the object; none of them
 >extend past it. This means that the object's width is at least
 >the diameter of the beams (assuming that the LA Times didn't
 >doctor the photo in anticipation of the post-war "UFO craze").

 >It seems to me this photo could be used to estimate the size of
 >the object from the size of the spotlight beams, which probably
 >were a foot or two in diameter at their base and have widened to
 >several times that size where they contact the object.

 >Off-hand, I'd say it appears quite a bit larger than a weather
 >balloon.

This is an interesting aspect of the photo. I am hoping that
information will become available that will allow us to
determine distances. If we can find out how far the camera was
from the "object" and the focal length of the camera lens we can
estimate the size of the 'object'. Perhaps there are more photos
than just one.








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             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:35:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming


 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:20:40 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >Hi Lan,

 >Actually, if you look closely, two beams do "extend past it". In
 >addition, there is a third beam, off to the right, that can be
 >seen above the object.

 >You bring up a good point about the size of the spot light
 >beams. Also, there were altitudes mentioned in the the newspaper
 >accounts in the days that followed the event. Perhaps with that
 >info, along with more specifics on the spot lights, one might
 >be able to better estimate the size of the object. In addition,
 >I'm researching the type of camera used, etc., the name of the
 >photographer, as well as going on the assumption that there was
 >more then one picture taken!

It seems very likely that more than one photo was taken of the
spectacular "battle." But I'm somewhat confused by the images
that have been referenced on this list.

The image on this page:

http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

which I'll call the "LA Times" photo, shows no indication as far
as I can see that any of the beams extend past the object.

But on this page:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/dacres/LAufoFAKE.jpg

three beams extend past the object. But it appears that the
image here has the "LA Times" photo superimposed over another
photograph. At least that's the way it looks to me. Where did
this other photo come from?

I did a side-by-side comparison of the LA Times and LAufoFAKE
images, and it appears that two of the beams that extend past
the object in the LAufoFAKE image are at the same angles in both
photos, but the middle beam in the second image is at an angle
that doesn't correspond to any of the beam angles in the LA
Times photo. There are also other light spots at the bottom of
the frame in the LAufoFAKE that don't correspond to anything in
the LA Times photo.

I'd conclude from this that these are, in fact, two different
photos. It appears that the second photo (the "LAufoFAKE" photo)
was taken after the object had moved past the point where the
spotlights converge, and after an additional spotlight went on
that was not on when the LA Times photo was taken or after one
of the beams had been moved to a new angle by the ground crew.

The anti-aircraft bursts can't be seen on the LAufoFAKE image
because the 'LA Times' image is (apparently) superimposed over
the area where they and the object are located. I'd suspect
image tampering only if the pattern of the AA bursts matched
exactly on both photos. The beam angles would stay the same
until the spotlights were redirected, so they could easily be
the same in two consecutive photos. But the AA bursts would be
very brief flashes that should disappear within a fraction of a
second and wouldn't be the same in two different photos.

If I'm wrong about one photo being superimposed on the other in
the LAufoFAKE image, then they would be the same photo, and one
of them has been altered. But which one, and by whom?








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                  Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Mantle

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@email.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:40:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:37:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Mantle


 >From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:35:27 +0100
 >Subject: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

 >Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

 >Discovery channel, Wednesday, 24 July, 10.30pm 'a look at claims
 >that UFO sightings in the UK were covered up during the Cold
 >War.'

 >TV and Satellite Week, 20-26 July 2002:

 >ALIEN NATION
 >by Richard McClure

<snip>

 >For a full interview with Wing Commander Stan Hubbard,
 >see:

 >'Flying Saucers Over Farnborough'

 >by David Clarke and Andy Roberts, in this month's UFO Magazine
 >(UK) on sale from 27 June, details at:

 >www.ufomag.co.uk

 >See also 'Britain's Secret UFO Hunters' in the Daily Mail,
 >Saturday, 20 July 2002.


Hi there,

Please be aware that we have an advanced review of this
documentary on the BEYOND web site:

www.beyondpublications.com

However, as this is a subscription only site I'll save you the
trouble of trying to access it and state that in the opinion of
our reviewer 'Britain's Secret UFO Hunters' is...how can I put
it nicely,  I can't, it's just plain garbage. Having watched it
after first reading the review I have to reluctantly agree.

Clarke & Roberts - especially Roberts - have taken great pride
in taking the micky out of others for making naff documentaries,
now the table has surely turned.


Philip








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              Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:43:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Novak


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >If I'm wrong about one photo being superimposed on the other in
 >the LAufoFAKE image, then they would be the same photo, and one
 >of them has been altered. But which one, and by whom?

One of the images must be altered. And for a simple reason
easily discerned without the second photo I provided. The light
beams simply should not just stop at the point of convergence
and form a glow around an object. There must be an opaque object
of sufficient size in the way to stop them.

In the commonly available photo found on the Rense website it is
dubious at best whether ot not an object is even present. If
indeed there is an object, and it is large enough to block ALL
of the light beams, it should very easily be visible. But it is
not, and it takes a bit of imagination to even speculate an
object is there at all. Further, it can be seen that rounds
explode within the convergence of beams. To me this somewhat
illustrates that there is nothing there. There are no clearly
defined edges. No clearly discernable shape. Nothing more than
an ambiguous glow in the center which could easily be a result
of the light from all the beams being absored and suffused
within smoke from the AAA explosions.

The smoke does not appear substantial enough to completely
absorb the smoke at all so we should at least see a fairly clear
continuance of light beyond the point of convergence. This I
have been advocating for two years. And recently, in yet another
search of vague references to this incident I came upon the
second photo. Which lo and behold supports my contention well.
So I provided it here when I noticed this case being mentioned.
Unfortunately, the scan is of poor quality, and the contact
information outdated on the page.

http://cstl.semo.edu/us107/Mainst/Homefront/roberts/

Perhaps Dr. Maccabee can shed some light on why the beams would
not continue?

In the end though, I am led to believe this. That the first
photo as shown in the Times and on Rense.com, has indeed been
altered. By who and when is a good question.









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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:22:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:02:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:03:00 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:28:17 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >I've snipped out most of your posting, including my own comments
 >I was preparing in a first draft, to get to the essential point,
 >which is:

 >>I still don't contend that these photos are fakes, I don't have
 >>the evidence for that, but I think there are a number of
 >>questions over them which need answering.

Just to prove that psychosocial pelicans are capable of changing
their mind: having started the discussion on this case without
intending to question the photographs, only the validity of its
"multi-witness" status, the more I learn about it the more the
photographs themselves raise serious questions about its
validity.

 >If this had been your point all along - which it wasn't, but no
 >matter - we wouldn't be having this discussion. _Of course_ all
 >of us would like to have all relevant information, including
 >that concerning the exact number of observers, including full
 >witness statements, and the like, in hand. As I have said, this
 >information so far has not been made available, at least in
 >English translation, and the answers very likely lie in
 >Brazilian Navy files. I and others have encouraged our Brazilian
 >colleagues - all of whom, I am sorry to say, have kept silent so
 >far-- to see what they can do to obtain the information that
 >would answer the questions.all of us want answered.

 >So let us end this discussion on a note of agreement. The moral
 >of the story is this:

 >If an American ufologist and a British psychosocial ufologist
 >can at long last find common ground, why can't other warring
 >tribes in the world, such as [fill in blank, citing peoples
 >currently shooting at and/or bombing each other], do the same?
 >Ah, if only the people of this suffering planet would follow the
 >fine example set by ufologists....

Fine words, Jerry, but I can't quite see what the common ground
is. We don't know enough about the Trindade case to make a
definitive judgement. Well, yes, but that's hardly news. But
this is rather different from  your claim that Trindade is "one
of the most impressive UFO cases in modern history" largely
because of the number of witnesses.

I would still like to know where the number of 48 witnesses came
from. Interestingly, in both editions of your encyclopedia this
figure appears only in the captions to the photographs - "forty-
eight witnesses saw the object" - and not in the text of the
article, where it might demand a reference. Is there any reason
for this?

 >Cordially,
 >Jerry Clark

Sorry to sabotage the peace process!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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             Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - Bott

From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:52:02 +1200 (NZST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:05:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - Bott


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400
 >Subject: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy

<snip>

 >If Colin Andrews is reading this List, one would appreciate
 >any comment he would have on the Michael Irving post
 >
 >Any of our UK readers/researchers care to comment on this one?

 >Begin Colin Andrews/alleged CIA post

 >Source: Rense.com

 >http://rense.com/general27/cia.htm

 >How The CIA Tried To Thwart Crop Circles And Colin Andrews
 >From Michael Irving
 >World-Action
 >michaeli@globalnet.co.uk
 >Rumor Mill News Reading Room Forum

<snip>

Greetings List

Back in August 2000 Colin Andrews apparently made an extensive
public statement (also carried by the Canadian Crop Circle group
in their newsletters) that about 80% of Crop Circles - at least
in the UK - he then believed to be "man-made" and that only 20%
were in his view (at that time) showed no evidence as being man-
made.

He was apparently wishing to correct the many public statements
by himself in his earlier years denying such extensive "man-made"
circles and any misguided beliefs people developed from his work.

At the time of the release of this I provided access to this
statement to some local people here in Auckland, and was
confronted with with the claim that Colin Andrews had been
"bought out" by the CIA to deny the crop circles and their (ET)
origins.

To Robert Gates:-

I personally feel that you should have sought out Colin Andrews
and requested his view on this lengthy statement PRIOR to your
post on UpDates and included these along with your post. I feel
that your post will only inflame many to prematurely accuse
Colin of 'CIA' involvement in his August 2000 statement as I
experienced here locally


Regards

Murray

-
Email : murrayb@win.co.nz
Voice : 64-9-6345285
Snail : PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand








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              CCCRN News Release: Canadian Crop Circle Reports

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:38:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 05:49:44 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News Release: Canadian Crop Circle Reports


CCCRN NEWS RELEASE

For Immediate Release: July 22, 2002

Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE REPORTS - CROP WATCH 2002
Notice to Farmers, Pilots, Media and the Public


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is requesting the
continued assistance of farmers, pilots, media and the general
public in its investigative efforts regarding 'crop circles',
those circular or geometric patterns of flattened field crops
which continue to be reported worldwide every year, and apart
from some known hoaxes and man-made 'land art', still remain
largely unexplained. CCCRN is a non-profit research organization
which has been investigating this phenomenon in-depth across the
country since 1995, with coordinators and field research
assistants now in seven provinces.

CCCRN is requesting that reports of formations again this year
be forwarded to the main office or to any of the provincial
branches (CCCRN currently has coordinators and field research
assistants in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba,
Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia). Contact information for all
CCCRN representatives is on the web site. It is requested that
reports be forwarded as soon after discovery as possible so that
a proper investigation can be initiated. As many formations are
discovered initially by farmers and pilots (crop dusters in
particular), sometimes in remote locations, it is also of
importance for the farming community and pilots to be aware of
this phenomenon, and to report formations when they are found.
In Canada, most formations are reported in August and September
(the typical circle 'season'), near or during harvest, primarily
in Saskatchewan, although they can also be reported year-round
(in pastures, wild grasses or even ice, for example). While like
in other countries, most circles have been appearing since the
late 1970s, some reports in Canada and elsewhere go back to at
least the 1950s and possibly much earlier as far as is now
known.

Twenty one known formations were reported across the country in
2001, in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba,
Ontario and Nova Scotia. Full reports are in the Crop Circles in
Canada 2001 report archive on the web site and in print in the
Canadian Crop Circle Summary Report 2001. So far in 2002, there
have been four reports as of mid-July, in BC, Ontario, Prince
Edward Island and New Brunswick. See the Crop Circles in Canada
2002 report archive on the web site for current updates. They
have also been reported in at least eight other countries so far
this year, primarily England, Germany and Holland.

CCCRN will be conducting field research studies for Crop Watch
2002 later this summer. Crop Watch is an annual research project
of CCCRN, including field investigations and studies of
formations, aerial surveillance and awareness initiatives for
farmers, the public and the media, in particular during the
prime August / September 'circle season' on the Canadian
prairies. Field research studies are conducted at circle
locations as they are found, including photo and video
documentation (both aerial and ground if possible), surveying
and plant / soil sampling for lab analysis, as well as
investigation of other possibly related phenomena. Sampling is
done when possible for the BLT Research Team in the United
States, which has been conducting serious scientific lab studies
of plant and soil samples from crop formations worldwide for the
past decade, now including additional independent labs. All
applicable laws are strictly adhered to, and under no
circumstance is a farmer's field or other property entered
without expressed permission. Names and locations are kept
confidential if requested and will not be released publicly in
those cases.

Scientific evidence from studies of a large number of formations
worldwide continues to indicate that there is a real phenomenon
occurring, apart from known hoaxes or man-made 'land art';
various anomalies which are common to many formations in all
countries include physical plant deformities, soil composition
changes, failure or malfunction of electronic equipment and
compasses, photo and video anomalies, small 'balls of light'
seen and videotaped and complex layering and weaving of plant
stalks, even in simple circles. A graphic overview of some of
the scientific evidence and the phenomenon in general can be
seen in The Phenomenon on the CCCRN web site.

CCCRN has also been assisting with the production of various
films and documentaries, including ones for  Unsolved Mysteries,
Space: the Imagination Station, Discovery Channel, The Learning
Channel, ABC, FOX, YTV and others, a number of which are to tie
in with the upcoming Hollywood film about the crop circle
phenomenon, 'Signs' starring Mel Gibson:

http://bventertainment.go.com/movies/signs/index.html

coming to theatres August 2, 2002. See Media on the CCCRN web
site for these and other media listings.

The first North American crop circle conference, 'Signs of
Destiny':

http://www.chetsnow.com/signs.html

will be held in Phoenix , Arizona from November 22-24, 2002, and
will include presentations from CCCRN founder and director Paul
Anderson and a number of other international speakers.

Anderson is also working on a book on the history of the
phenomenon in Canada, the first of its kind in this country, due
for publication in the summer of 2003.

For more information, see the CCCRN web site:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada


CONTACT INFORMATION

Paul Anderson
Founder / Director

Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada








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                       News Items Wanted For 'Beyond'

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@email.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:19:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:13:40 -0400
Subject: News Items Wanted For 'Beyond'


If any of you on the List have and news items on any topics such
as UFOs, the paranormal/psychic phenomenon, cryptozoology, etc,
etc, then I'd very much like to have them c/o:
beyondmantle@aol.com


Many thanks,

Philip Mantle.
Editor
Beyond Publications.
www.beyondpublications.com







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   Jul > Jul 21

               Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy -

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:41:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:18:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy -


From: Colin Andrews c/o Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
To ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
Date Sun 21 July 2002
Subject Crop Circles, Colin Andrews and Conspiracy


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400
 >Subject: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy

 >Note: This is an interesting one. I love how nameless, ID
 >less people can claim to be anybody, in this case "CIA" and
 >people buy the story. Even more interesting is the 'US author'
 >that is a 'her' that wanted to write a book with Colin and he
 >declined it because he thought it was a scheme to access his
 >personal data base. Personally I would think it would be fairly
 >easy to put a name with the guy who was "studying foxes" as this
 >guy is supposedly fingered as the CIA guy.

 >If Colin Andrews is reading this List, one would appreciate
 >any comment he would have on the Michael Irving post

 >Any of our UK readers/researchers care to comment on this one?

---

 >>Begin Colin Andrews/alleged CIA post

 >>Source: Rense.com

 >>http://rense.com/general27/cia.htm

 >>How The CIA Tried To Thwart Crop Circles And Colin Andrews
 >>From Michael Irving
 >>World-Action
 >>michaeli@globalnet.co.uk
 >>Rumor Mill News Reading Room Forum

 >>7-19-2

 >>Colin Andrews was the world's leading authority on Crop
 >>Patterns, right from the time this amazing phenomenon came onto
 >>the world's stage in the mid 1980s.


Most of the interview with Jon King is accurate. Where the CIA
contractors name has been omitted, it will remain omitted. The
person is well known and the facts surrounding who she works for
is 100%. More about part of this story (i.e. the CIA approach to
myself in UK is about to be released in the new DVD (next
month)and I will not spend more time on that now - see my web
site: www.CropCircleInfo.com

Now where this latest post goes off the edge into pure
speculation and inaccuracies is with the added comments of one
rather strange man, Michael Irving. All that he has to say about
the matter surrounding my work for Mr. Laurence Rockefeller is
untrue and also the CIA having found a way to silence me or have
me put out misinformation is also total nonsense.

I am still probably the only person on the planet working 10
hours a day for the crop circles research. I am totally
dedicated tonailing this subject down and have played a very
largeroll in numerous major television programs recentlywhich
are about to be screened, particularly in theUSA, some in other
countries too (again please go to my media-movie page on the web
site).

I have been blessed with an opportunity to convey what I think
is occurring in the fields and wider in our world by advising
film Director Marcus Thompson for his new film 'A Place To
Stay'. When the public see this (including Mr. Irving) they will
see where I stand.

There should not be any doubts about where I stand anyway. I
take part regularly in widely transmitted radio and TV programs
(and around 12 more biggies next month), I have two web sites
and the rest - so where does this all come from? I think
someone is looking for trouble or just has too much time on his
hands.

I believe Mr. Irving is not a stranger to the other side of the
law and as a taxi driver on the Isle Of Wight, he seems to have
too much time to stir up the pot. He is on dangerous ground with
this posting for sure.

Once again, just before closing, why in hell do people go into
print before checking out material that concerns them so.

Michael Irving knows me, he knows my phone number and anyone can
e-mail me (I get way too many each day to prove it) - its out
there and I will always answer questions of concern like this,
although I would rather be doing the work.

I have not been got at. My resolve is as great as it ever was
and I am after the truth, where ever it takes me.


Best wishes,

Colin







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                 Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem

From: Royce J. Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:40:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:32:32 -0400
Subject: Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem


I just received a report on a formation that appeared here in
Oregon. While the report is well written, there's one big
problem with it:

"DOWSING REPORT: Michael Newark of Coventry, England, who
practices the age-old technique of dowsing and dowses British
formations in person, dowsed the photo of the Forest Grove
formation and reported as follows: It was what he calls "Circle
Maker" in origin, all-powerful, with a large amount of absorbed
aura that influences the countryside for miles. He says it took
47 seconds to form with its power coming from 3 miles 600 yards
down the planet. The highest aura he found in the key section
with the small circles second in potency and the center circle
less powerful."

Anyone else seeing the problem here? I didn't know if I should
laugh, cry or just get out of UFOs all together. Dowsing a
photo? I'm just curious, was a crystal ball reading also taken?
Perhaps aura photos? I'm amazed that this even made it into the
report.

I wonder what these folks are going to say if Dr.Levengood's
analysis of the formation turns up negative and someone does
actually come forward to take responsibility for a hoax in this
matter. Even if the results come back positive, this report is
some more ammo for debunkers to load into their guns and no
media entity is going to take it seriously.

While there is some very strong science behind crop formations,
dowsing has zero to do with it and completely discredits the
report. You can write a spectacular 20 page report presenting
all the necessary facts and supporting evidence, but then it can
be completely ruined with one piece that has nothing to do with
an analysis of fact. And then we wonder where the ridicule comes
from...

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"








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   Jul > Jul 21

                                Alien Armada!

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:31:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:31:32 -0400
Subject: Alien Armada!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

Alien Armada!

By Peter Carlson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, July 21, 2002; Page F01

50 Years Ago, Unidentified Flying Objects From Way Beyond the
Beltway Seized the Capital's Imagination

In the control tower at Washington National Airport, Ed Nugent
saw seven pale violet blips on his radar screen. What were they?
Not planes - at least not any planes that were supposed to be
there.

He summoned his boss, Harry G. Barnes, the head of National's
air traffic controllers. "Here's a fleet of flying saucers for
you," Nugent said, half-joking.

Upstairs, in the tower's glass-enclosed top floor, controller
Joe Zacko saw a strange blip streaking across his radar screen.
It wasn't a bird. It wasn't a plane. What was it? He looked out
the window and spotted a bright light hovering in the sky. He
turned to his partner, Howard Cocklin, who was sitting three
feet away.

"Look at that bright light," Zacko said. "If you believe in
flying saucers, that could sure be one."

And then the light took off, zooming away at an incredible
speed.

"Did you see that?" Cocklin remembers saying. "What the hell was
that?"

It was Saturday night, July 19, 1952 - 50 years ago this
weekend - one of the most famous dates in the bizarre history
of UFOs. Before the night was over, a pilot reported seeing
unexplained objects, radar at two local Air Force bases --
  Andrews and Bolling - picked up the UFOs, and two Air Force F-
94 jets streaked over Washington, searching for flying saucers.

Then, a week later, it happened all over again - more UFOs on
the radar screen, more jets scrambled over Washington. Across
America, the story of jets chasing UFOs over the White House
knocked the Korean War and the presidential campaign off the
front pages of newspapers.

" 'Saucer' Outran Jet, Pilot Reveals," read the banner headline
in The Washington Post.

"JETS CHASE D.C. SKY GHOSTS," screamed the New York Daily News.

"AERIAL WHATZITS BUZZ D.C. AGAIN!" shouted the Washington Daily
News.

As rumors spread, President Truman demanded to know what was
flying over his house. Soon the federal government was fighting
the UFOs with the most powerful weapons in the Washington
arsenal - bureaucracy, obfuscation and gobbledygook.

That seemed to work. The UFOs never returned.

At least, not that we know of. As Big as Life

In a way, this whole strange episode began with Marilyn Monroe.

The actress appeared on the cover of Life magazine's April 7,
1952, issue, looking sultry in a diaphanous, low-cut dress, her
eyelids drooping seductively. It was the kind of cover that
attracts attention. And just above Monroe's left shoulder was a
cover line touting a different story: "There Is a Case for
Interplanetary Saucers."

The article was titled "Have We Visitors From Outer Space?" It
reviewed 10 recent UFO sightings and concluded that they could
not be written off as hallucinations, hoaxes or earthly
aircraft. An unnamed Air Force intelligence officer was quoted
saying, "The higher you go in the Air Force, the more seriously
they take the flying saucers."

The story ended with a series of questions that sound like
something Rod Serling might intone at the end of a "Twilight
Zone" episode:

"Who, or what, is aboard? Where do they come from? Why are they
here? What are the intentions of the beings who control them?"

It wasn't the first media account of UFOs - there had been lots
of publicity since several well-known sightings in 1947,
including one in Roswell, N.M. - but the Life article marked
the first time that a trusted, mainstream magazine had given
credence to the theory that UFOs might be alien spacecraft.

The Life story was big news, covered in more than 350 newspapers
across America. Soon, the number of UFO sightings reported to
the Air Force skyrocketed - from 23 in March, before Life's
article appeared, to 82 in April, 79 in May, 148 in June.

Were these increases due to saucers swarming over America? Or
did Life's story make Americans more likely to report strange
things they saw in the sky?

By mid-July, Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt - the head of Project Blue
Book, the Air Force's official UFO study team - was getting 40
reports of UFO sightings a day. Many were bogus but some came
from pilots and other respectable citizens, and Ruppelt took
them seriously.

Then - a few days before the first sightings at National
Airport - Ruppelt interviewed a government scientist who made a
startling prediction that Ruppelt recorded in his 1956 memoir,
"The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects."

"Within the next few days," the unidentified scientist said,
banging his hand on his desk for emphasis, "you're going to have
the granddaddy of all UFO sightings. The sighting will occur in
Washington or New York - probably Washington." 'Falling Stars
Without Tails'

The blips first appeared on radar screens at National at 11:40
that Saturday night - seven unidentified targets about 15 miles
southeast of the city.

It was a clear, hot, humid night with very little air traffic,
and the controllers at National watched the strange blips amble
across their screens. They'd cruise at a leisurely rate of about
100 to 130 miles per hour, then abruptly zoom off in an
extraordinary burst of speed.

"They acted like a bunch of small kids out playing," Barnes, the
head controller, wrote a few days later in a piece for a New
York newspaper. "It was helter-skelter, as if directed by some
innate curiosity. At times, they moved as a group or cluster, at
other times as individuals."

Barnes called his counterparts at Andrews and Bolling to ask if
they saw anything unusual on their radar screens. They did. They
were getting blips in the same places.

At Andrews, controller William Brady looked out the control
tower window and saw what looked like "an orange ball of fire,
trailing a tail." It was, he later told Air Force investigators,
"unlike anything I had ever seen before."

At National, Cocklin looked out his window and saw what he
recalls as a "whitish blue light" that emanated from a solid
object that was "round with no distinguishing marks such as
wings or a nose or a tail." It looked, he says, "like a saucer."

Sometime after 1 a.m, National's control tower radioed Capital
Air Flight 807, from Washington to Detroit, and asked the pilot
if he saw any unusual objects. Captain S.C. "Casey" Pierman, a
pilot with 17 years of experience, radioed back: "There's one --
  and there it goes."

For the next 14 minutes, as he flew between Herndon and
Martinsburg, W.Va., Pierman saw six bright lights that streaked
across the sky at tremendous speed. "They were," he said, "like
falling stars without tails."

Watching the radar blips flying over the Capitol and the White
House, Barnes called the Air Force to report unidentified
aircraft in restricted air space. But it was very late on a
Saturday night and the Air Force bureaucracy responded
sluggishly. By the time F-94 interceptor jets left New Castle
Air Force Base in Delaware - the runways at Andrews were closed
for repairs - it was after 3 a.m.

When the F-94s soared over Washington, the strange blips
disappeared from the radar screens at National. The F-94 pilots
cruised around the area for a while but saw nothing. When they
headed back to New Castle, the blips reappeared.

The controllers watched the UFOs flit across their screens until
dawn, then disappear. Trying to Clear the Air

Nobody bothered to call Ruppelt about the sightings. When he
flew to Washington a couple of days later on unrelated Project
Blue Book business, he learned about them by reading newspapers
at the airport.

"Radar Spots Air Mystery Objects Here," read the headline on the
front page of The Washington Post.

"Air Force 'Saucer' Expert Will Probe Sightings Here," said the
Washington Daily News.

Ruppelt asked his colleagues who the expert was. You are, they
told him.

At the Pentagon, Ruppelt found the Air Force brass deeply
concerned about one particular aspect of the sightings: What
should they tell the press?

Nobody had any idea what - if anything - had been in the air
over Washington on July 19, but the newspapers were demanding
answers. Reporters, Ruppelt wrote, "were now beginning to put on
a squeeze by threatening to call congressmen - and nothing
chills blood faster in the military."

Ruppelt volunteered to stay overnight to interview the
controllers at National and Andrews, then report what he learned
to the press. But Ruppelt got entangled in the thicket of
military bureaucracy.

He called the Pentagon's transportation section to get a car so
he could travel to the various airports. Only colonels and
generals can get cars, he was told. He called two generals, but
it was after 4 p.m. and they were gone for the day.

He went to the finance office to get permission to rent a car.
Take a bus, the woman there told him. It takes a lot of buses to
go from the Pentagon to National to Andrews, he replied. Take a
cab, she said, and pay for it out of your per diem. But his per
diem was $9, he said, and he had to pay for food and lodging.

The woman then informed Ruppelt that his orders were to fly back
to Ohio that night, and unless he got those orders amended, he'd
technically be AWOL. He asked to talk to her boss. He'd left at
4:30 to avoid traffic, she said, and now it was 5 and she was
leaving, too.

Ruppelt gave up. "I decided that if flying saucers were buzzing
Pennsylvania Avenue, I couldn't care less," he wrote. "I caught
the next airliner to Dayton." A Return Engagement

About 10 o'clock Saturday night, July 26, Ruppelt was at home in
Dayton when a reporter called to say that UFOs were back in the
sky over Washington.

What, the reporter asked, did the Air Force plan to do about it?

"I have no idea what the Air Force is doing," Ruppelt replied.
"In all probability, it's doing nothing."

He hung up, then called the Pentagon and learned that he was
right: The Air Force was doing nothing. He made more calls,
dispatching two officers - Maj. Dewey Fournet and Lt. John
Holcomb, a radar expert - to National's control tower to see
what was happening.

Fournet and Holcomb arrived to find National's controllers
tracking a dozen unexplained blips. An Air Force B-25 happened
to be passing through the area, so the controllers asked it to
check out some of the radar targets. The B-25 went to one site
and spotted nothing except a tourist boat cruising the Potomac.

Perhaps, the controllers surmised, a temperature inversion - a
layer of hot air between two layers of colder air in the sky --
  had bent the radar beam, causing it to mistake objects on the
ground for things in the air. Temperature inversions were common
in Washington on hot days, and the controllers were familiar
with the phenomenon.

But Fournet and Holcomb were convinced that some of the radar
blips were solid metal objects, not inversion-induced mirages.
Radar operators at Andrews saw them, too. And civilian planes
flying into Washington reported seeing strange glowing objects
in places where the radar was getting blips.

The controllers called for interceptors, and about 11 p.m. the
Air Force dispatched F-94s to search the sky over Washington.
When the first jets arrived, the blips disappeared from
National's radar screens and the F-94 pilots saw nothing
unusual. But when they returned to New Castle, the blips
returned to the radar screens.

About 1:30 a.m., the jets soared back over Washington. This
time, pilots saw several strange lights. One pilot gave chase
but he couldn't catch the streaking light.

"I tried to make contact with the bogies below 1,000 feet,"
pilot William Patterson told investigators. "I was at my maximum
speed but . . . I ceased chasing them because I saw no chance of
overtaking them." Trading on Hot Air

On Monday morning, the story of UFOs outrunning fighter planes
was splashed across front pages all over America. In Iowa, the
headline in the Cedar Rapids Gazette read like something out of
a sci-fi flick: "SAUCERS SWARM OVER CAPITAL."

"We have no evidence they are flying saucers," an unidentified
Air Force source told reporters. "Conversely we have no evidence
they are not flying saucers. We don't know what they are."

In the absence of hard information, the Washington Daily News
printed a roundup of rumors. The "most persistent rumor" was
that the saucers were American aircraft secretly produced by
Boeing "at some remote site." An "absolutely weird" rumor was
that the saucers were alien aircraft that had crashed and then
been repaired and flown by the Air Force.

That Monday, the Air Force tried to reassure the nation by
promising to keep jet fighters poised to chase the saucers at a
moment's notice. But that statement didn't reassure Robert L.
Farnsworth, president of the United States Rocket Society, who
warned President Truman not to attack the UFOs.

"Should they be extra-terrestrial, such actions might result in
the gravest consequences, as well as possibly alienating us from
beings of far superior powers," Farnsworth telegraphed Truman.
"Friendly contact should be sought as long as possible."

Truman was as baffled as everyone else. He asked his Air Force
aide, Brig. Gen. Robert B. Landry, to find out what the UFOs
were. On Tuesday morning, Landry called Ruppelt, who'd flown
back to the Pentagon. Ruppelt said the sightings might be
weather-related mirages but he didn't really know.

Nobody knew, not even Maj. Gen. John Samford, the Air Force's
director of intelligence. But Samford called a press conference
at the Pentagon at 4 o'clock Tuesday afternoon. It was the
largest Pentagon press conference since World War II, Ruppelt
wrote, and Samford's performance proved to be a brilliant
demonstration of the art of bureaucratic balderdash.

He arrived in Room 3E-869 precisely at 4, accompanied by Ruppelt
and several other officials. He opened with a rambling monologue
on the history of UFOs, which, he noted, dated "to biblical
times." He mentioned UFO sightings in 1846 but never got around
to the UFO sightings of 1952.

When reporters asked about the Washington sightings, Samford
told a story about radar picking up a flock of ducks in Japan in
1950. When they asked if radar at National and Andrews had seen
the same blips simultaneously, he speculated about the
definition of the word "simultaneously." When they asked if the
UFOs could be material objects, he mused about the definition of
the word "material." When they asked if the F-94 pilot who
chased the strange light was a qualified observer, he wondered
about the meaning of the word "qualified."

Speaking about what that pilot saw, Samford uttered a sentence
that ought to have a place in the Bureaucratic Gibberish Hall of
Fame: "That very likely is one that sits apart and says
insufficient measurement, insufficient association with other
things, insufficient association with other probabilities for it
to do any more than to join that group of sightings that we
still hold in front of us as saying no."

Along the way, Samford mentioned the "temperature inversion"
theory - that a layer of hot air in the sky might have caused
radar to mistake things on the ground for flying objects. First,
he said it was a "possibility." Later, he said it was "about a
50-50 proposition." Then he said it was a "probable"
explanation.

He talked until 5:20, then the reporters dashed back to their
offices to meet their deadlines. Sifting through notebooks full
of gobbledygook, they seized on temperature inversion. It was an
irresistible concept for newspapermen. The UFOs, they wrote,
were caused by Washington's famous "hot air."

Ruppelt was amazed. Samford hadn't really explained anything,
but whatever he had done, it worked.

"Somehow," Ruppelt wrote, "out of this chaotic situation came
exactly the result that was intended - the press got off our
backs."

When newspapers stopped writing about the UFOs, people stopped
reporting UFOs. "Reports dropped from 50 per day to 10 a day
within a week," Ruppelt noted.

And the UFOs never returned to the sky over Washington. Perhaps
they'd seen enough. The Arguments Still Fly

Sitting at his desk, wearing blue pajamas and a gray bathrobe,
Philip J. Klass holds up a government report and smiles
mischievously.

"I will let you borrow it," he says, "provided that you provide
one testicle as security."

The report is called "A Preliminary Study of Unidentified
Targets Observed on Air Traffic Control Radars." Not many people
would trade a testicle for it.

The report was issued by the Civil Aeronautics Administration in
1953, shortly after Klass began writing for Aviation Week. He's
still writing for that magazine, but not often these days
because he is 82 and ailing.

"The gist of the report," he says, "is that the Washington
sightings were temperature inversions."

He wrote about the report in Aviation Week in 1953. That began
his career as America's most prominent UFO debunker. Over the
past 49 years, he's written five books on UFOs and engaged in
countless debates with UFO believers. He can cite evidence and
quote reports all day long, but he seems to prefer rattling off
one-liners.

He says: "If there are UFOs and they want to make themselves
known, land! And if they don't want to make their visits known,
turn off the lights!"

He says: "If UFOs are abducting people, why do they choose only
ugly people? If they abducted Olympic athletes, I could
understand."

Bruce Maccabee isn't laughing. "One thing you have to
understand: This is serious business," he says. "The skeptics
like to make fun of us."

Maccabee, 60, is a civilian physicist for the Navy and a
prominent UFO believer. In the '70s, he filed the Freedom of
Information Act request that led to the release of the FBI's
file on UFOs. The file was called "Security Matter X" - "the
real X-Files," he says.

Maccabee believes there were "solid objects" in the air over
Washington 50 years ago. "And I think those solid objects were
not made by us," he says. "And by us, I mean human beings."

Like Klass, Maccabee buttresses his argument with an official
government report. It's called "Quantitative Aspects of Mirages"
and it was issued by the Air Force in 1969.

"They proved in their own study that there wasn't enough
temperature inversion to cause this effect," he says. "The
Washington sightings cannot be explained as a radar mirage."

After 50 years, the debate over the Washington UFOs goes on and
on.

"You have dueling experts and dueling reports," says Kevin D.
Randle, author of "Invasion Washington: UFOs Over the Capitol,"
a new book on the 1952 sightings. "One expert says it was
temperature inversion. Another says it wasn't. In that
situation, you have to refer back to the air traffic controllers
and the pilots who actually saw the objects."

Former controller Howard Cocklin is still convinced that he saw
an object over National that night. "I saw it on the screen and
out the window," he says. "It was a whitish-blue object. Not a
light - a solid form. An object. A saucer-shaped object."

Now 83 and retired, Cocklin says he never saw anything like that
saucer - not before, not since.

"It just went away," he says, sitting in an armchair in his
Fairfax living room. "Where did it go? Why don't people see
these things today? Why 50 years ago?"

=A9 2002 The Washington Post Company







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   Jul > Jul 21

               Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:59:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:34:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy -


 >From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
 >To: Updates List <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:52:02 +1200 (NZST)
 >Subject: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400
 >>Subject: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy

 ><snip>

 >>If Colin Andrews is reading this List, one would appreciate
 >>any comment he would have on the Michael Irving post

 >>Any of our UK readers/researchers care to comment on this one?

 >>Begin Colin Andrews/alleged CIA post

<snip>

 >>How The CIA Tried To Thwart Crop Circles And Colin Andrews
 >>From Michael Irving
 >>World-Action
 >>michaeli@globalnet.co.uk
 >>Rumor Mill News Reading Room Forum

 ><snip>

 >Greetings List

 >Back in August 2000 Colin Andrews apparently made an extensive
 >public statement (also carried by the Canadian Crop Circle group
 >in their newsletters) that about 80% of Crop Circles - at least
 >in the UK - he then believed to be "man-made" and that only 20%
 >were in his view (at that time) showed no evidence as being man-
 >made.

 >He was apparently wishing to correct the many public statements
 >by himself in his earlier years denying such extensive "man-made"
 >circles and any misguided beliefs people developed from his work.

Murray, List,

Based upon this supposed/alleged interview with Colin one could
make the case it was part of the plan so to speak. Remember the
part of this story how he told his daughter or wife that
everything he said about crop circles thus far.....?

 >At the time of the release of this I provided access to this
 >statement to some local people here in Auckland, and was
 >confronted with with the claim that Colin Andrews had been
 >"bought out" by the CIA to deny the crop circles and their (ET)
 >origins.

So in essence this theory (notice when I posted it I said
alleged CIA) has been around since that time. I still don't
believe the dude was CIA or may not have even been in the so
called intelligence community. He could have been some fruit
cake pretending to be CIA and perhaps he was the real thing.  If
Colin in fact worked for the Rockefeller foundation it could all
be a concidence.

 >To Robert Gates:-

 >I personally feel that you should have sought out Colin Andrews
 >and requested his view on this lengthy statement PRIOR to your
 >post on UpDates and included these along with your post. I feel

Colin can certainly write and speak for himself on the subject.
He apparently has not chosen to deny anything...at least prior
to this point. Perhaps when he gets the post he may say
something. I understand this interview was taped...but don't
have confirmation as yet.

As you well know this was originally posted on Rense, not to
mention the originators home page and elsewhere. So its not like
some lightning bolt out of the blue so to speak.

 >that your post will only inflame many to prematurely accuse
 >Colin of 'CIA' involvement in his August 2000 statement as I
 >experienced here locally

My post won't inflame anything especially since this is already
out and about. This was posted for the interest of the List As I
mentioned earlier apparently this or similar stories have been
around since 2000 or thereabouts and apparently he has not
denied it.

I guess summed up some questions for Colin would be:

1) Is this story in fact correct, or essentially true, mostly
correct or what? Please tell us what isn't correct.

2) Is it true that you in fact or did work for the Rockefeller
foundation? What date did you begin employment with them?

3) Who is the "she" person mentioned in the post that was
allegedly going to write a book with you?

4)What is the name of the person that was out studying foxes
that is/was allegedly somekind of CIA agent.

Looking forward to hearing from Colin.

Cheers,

Robert








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   Jul > Jul 21

                  Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:42:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:41:02 -0400
Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Cohen


 >>>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:39:47 -0400
 >>>Subject: To Skeptics Reading This List


http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m29-014.shtml


 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:54:12 -500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Hutchinson



http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jul/m01-007.shtml

 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:14:58 -0500
 >Subject: Re: To Skeptics Reading This List - Lehmberg


http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jul/m02-006.shtml

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Hello there everyone,

Since this thread concerning NICAP's rebuttal to the 1966 Condon
Colorado study re. UFOs and the Sturrock panel's eventual
reevaluation of same has strayed from it's original intent and
seems to be reaching its culmination, I believe it is time to
gently pull it back there and make the following observation:

After my initial posting,

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m29-014.shtml

we sailed into a semantics discussion evoked by the use of the
word "Skeptics" in my original subject heading and then, somehow
branched off into various directions including a discussion
concerning Trindade 1958, which was extremely interesting in its
own right but certainly not found directly in the NICAP
rebuttal. (I've got a lot of compiling to do.)

Upon reflection, I'm not so sure if I had addressed my post any
differently whether we would have stayed any truer to the
original topic.

We branched off in various directions and, I believe, only two
people actually addressed the crux of the material I originally
posted. I apologize if I missed anyone. Alfred Lehmberg agreed
with it completely (Alfred, whatever happened to "suffering
succotash!"?) and Bruce Hutchinson disagreed. You can see both
of their full posts by clicking the links under their post
headings above.

Bruce hasn't responded to my comments to his post yet,
but perhaps he's working on it.  Obviously, the rest of the
people didn't feel like discussing the subject material in
question, possibly for several reasons, two of which I'll
propose here:

1)      Many researchers feel it's a "done deal." They understand
from whence the Stanford panel was coming and acknowledge the
righteousness of the reevaluation and feel that enough
discussion has transpired to convince the "open-minded" that an
honest study was performed this time around. They don't want to
waste any more time on this.

2)      Some researchers, the people to whom I was really
addressing the first post, seem to feel some kind of "fix"
was in, and they do not accept the findings.

It is interesting to note most of group #2 failed to respond,
with the exception of Bruce (Thank you for the courtesy and for
putting yourself on the line by responding.)

So again, here is Bruce's post:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jul/m01-007.shtml

I responded to several points he made, and at the same time,
giving what I believe is an accurate accounting of some directly
pertinent ufological history in what I hoped was an easy to
follow hyper linked context:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jul/m05-018.shtml

The main intention of my two postings was very simple; namely
that research group #2 and neophyte readers would be able to
have direct Internet access to a broader understanding of
exactly what occurred back then, realize and/or acknowledge some
of the problems with the original 1966 study, and finally, have
complete understanding why the Stanford panel chose to take a
more open stance concerning Edward J Condon's findings. I
believe this is extremely important to the UFO community as a
whole. It's one of those "how we got where we are" things.

The fairness of the Sturrock reevaluation should be understood
by "open- minded" researchers everywhere, no matter where their
main "suspicions" concerning UFOs lie. Anyone not understanding
this is simply refusing to look historical facts square in the
face, but rest assured,  "history" will judge _you_ accordingly.
Like it or not, the dawn of a new era of study is upon us and it
is the responsibility of serious researchers to re calibrate
their studies to meet the Sturrock panel's suggestions and
intensify their efforts to gather data which we believe can
eventually get to the root of this mystifying, yet so incredibly
gripping phenomenon.

People still having a problem with this are welcome to respond
to my last link above, otherwise I will take that to mean at the
minimum, that readers on this list all accept my post as a valid
response to Bruce's comments and a basically solid summation
concerning the reasons for both the necessity of the Stanford
study's existence and its eventual outcome.

For neophyte readers, my response to some of the
points from Bruce's letter are also located at:

http://www.cohenufo.org/condonsturrock.htm

The version there includes other related historical hyper links
especially valuable to those new readers of this list who may be
saying to themselves "This is amazing. How can all this be?" The
answer to that one is "You ain't seen nuttin' yet. Keep
reading."


Respectfully,

Jerry Cohen
http://www.cohenufo.org/








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                  Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Clarke

From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:59:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:42:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters - Clarke


 >From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@email.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:40:16 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

 >>>Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

 >>Discovery channel, Wednesday, 24 July, 10.30pm 'a look at claims
 >>that UFO sightings in the UK were covered up during the Cold
 >>War.'

 >Please be aware that we have an advanced review of this
 >documentary on the BEYOND web site:

 >www.beyondpublications.com

 >However, as this is a subscription only site I'll save you the
 >trouble of trying to access it and state that in the opinion of
 >our reviewer 'Britain's Secret UFO Hunters' is...how can I put
 >it nicely,  I can't, it's just plain garbage. Having watched it
 >after first reading the review I have to reluctantly agree.

 >Clarke & Roberts - especially Roberts - have taken great pride
 >in taking the micky out of others for making naff documentaries,
 >now the table has surely turned.

Hi Philip,

It may well be garbage, but at least you don't have to pay =A325
to watch it, as you do with your new website!

Best,

Dave Clarke








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   Jul > Jul 21

                          Washington Post UFO Story

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:20:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:43:25 -0400
Subject: Washington Post UFO Story


List, All -

For those interested in the Washington Post story about UFOs, see:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

The article seemed fair and balanced to me and the reporter seemed to
have done a good job in laying out the facts. This is the sort of thing
we need to see.

KRandle








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                     Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:33:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:45:07 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton  <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:23:40 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 >>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:53:03 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Part III

 ><snip>

 >>All we want to do here is clean house a little Provide some
 >>solid research and raise the bar. I said nothing about unifying
 >>UFO studies or gaining support from outside science. I suggested
 >>a way that we could improve what we do, provide a forum to
 >>report on those findings, and move on from there. If you feel
 >>that it is too complicated or cumbersome, then you're not
 >>required to participate. The alternative is to attempt nothing
 >>and to continue on the same road that has gained us nothing.

 >Kevin,

 >This is a good idea as you have limited the scope of your
 >proposal. Are you planning to design a protocol for doing the
 >research and how we can propose solutions for a particular case?

Good Morning Bill, List, All -

Yes, I have a plan in mind for setting up the specific reports
and hoped that the first could be used as a template for the
reports that follow. The basic protocols will be set in each of
the reports and depend on the needs of the writer and
researcher.

In my mind, each of the reports will include a conclusion but I
would think that once the rough draft is posted, then anyone who
has a solution or a counter conclusion could make it at that
time.

 >Since you volunteered the Mantell case, then let us start with
 >that.

 >I, for one, would like to see as much witness descriptive data
 >of the unknown object pursued by Mantell as possible in order to
 >find perceptual points that could suggest the nature of the
 >pursued object.

I had thought about paraphrasing the witness statements that
were included in the file, but they are all relatively short so
I decided to include the complete reports that begin with Col.
Hix and work their way down to a PFC who was in the tower at the
time.

 >Weather and wind data if available would be nice. Also any known
 >Skyhook stations in the vicinity if that is such a strong
 >possibility. Another explanation given long ago was that Mantell
 >was chasing the planet Venus. Can we rule this out?

Weather data for the area was given in the Blue Book files and
can be included.

Interestingly, though Venus has been proposed by some, there are
a number of reports in the file that rule out Venus completely,
suggesting that while Venus can be seen during the day if you
know where to look and the sky is clear, the investigators
believed that on that day in that location Venus would not have
been visible due to a light haze.

 >There were alleged plane to tower communications describing a
 >metallic object of great size. Were these accurate reports or
 >distortions? Or will this be one of those cases where
 >insufficient data exists to make a probable determination?

The tower personnel (including Col. Hix) commented on all the
communications with Mantell so that we can get a fairly accurate
picture here. The reports tend to corroborate one another though
the wording is slightly different as each man searched his
memory for what exactly was said... which I believe suggests the
statements were accurate. If the Air Force, at that early date,
was attempting to slip one by us, I think we would have had
statements that were much more consistent.

If all goes well, all these points will be covered in the
report, which I am working on now.

KRandle









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             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:03:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:46:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:20:40 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>Hi Lan,

 >>Actually, if you look closely, two beams do "extend past it". In
 >>addition, there is a third beam, off to the right, that can be
 >>seen above the object.

 >>You bring up a good point about the size of the spot light
 >>beams. Also, there were altitudes mentioned in the the newspaper
 >>accounts in the days that followed the event. Perhaps with that
 >>info, along with more specifics on the spot lights, one might
 >>be able to better estimate the size of the object. In addition,
 >>I'm researching the type of camera used, etc., the name of the
 >>photographer, as well as going on the assumption that there was
 >>more then one picture taken!

 >It seems very likely that more than one photo was taken of the
 >spectacular "battle." But I'm somewhat confused by the images
 >that have been referenced on this list.

 >The image on this page:

 >http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

 >which I'll call the "LA Times" photo, shows no indication as far
 >as I can see that any of the beams extend past the object.

 >But on this page:

 >http://home.austarnet.com.au/dacres/LAufoFAKE.jpg

 >three beams extend past the object. But it appears that the
 >image here has the "LA Times" photo superimposed over another
 >photograph. At least that's the way it looks to me. Where did
 >this other photo come from?

 >I did a side-by-side comparison of the LA Times and LAufoFAKE
 >images, and it appears that two of the beams that extend past
 >the object in the LAufoFAKE image are at the same angles in both
 >photos, but the middle beam in the second image is at an angle
 >that doesn't correspond to any of the beam angles in the LA
 >Times photo. There are also other light spots at the bottom of
 >the frame in the LAufoFAKE that don't correspond to anything in
 >the LA Times photo.

 >I'd conclude from this that these are, in fact, two different
 >photos. It appears that the second photo (the "LAufoFAKE" photo)
 >was taken after the object had moved past the point where the
 >spotlights converge, and after an additional spotlight went on
 >that was not on when the LA Times photo was taken or after one
 >of the beams had been moved to a new angle by the ground crew.

 >The anti-aircraft bursts can't be seen on the LAufoFAKE image
 >because the 'LA Times' image is (apparently) superimposed over
 >the area where they and the object are located. I'd suspect
 >image tampering only if the pattern of the AA bursts matched
 >exactly on both photos. The beam angles would stay the same
 >until the spotlights were redirected, so they could easily be
 >the same in two consecutive photos. But the AA bursts would be
 >very brief flashes that should disappear within a fraction of a
 >second and wouldn't be the same in two different photos.

 >If I'm wrong about one photo being superimposed on the other in
 >the LAufoFAKE image, then they would be the same photo, and one
 >of them has been altered. But which one, and by whom?


Hello Lan,

I cannot vouch for "LAufoFAKE image," only the pics that appear
at:

http://rense.com/general27/battle.htm

The first image that appears at the site, I ordered from the "LA
Times Photo Collection Archives" which was taken from the
original negative that appeared in the LA Times newspaper on
"February 26, 1942." The second "image" is a "photocopy" of the
same image taken from the "LA Times microfilm archives" of the
same article, same date etc.

Other then the "poor quality" of the second image from the
microfilm, I think it is safe to say that the image that was
published on 2-26-42 in the Times is the same as that of the
negative. That is, it was not tampered with, or altered in any
way. Having said that, there are still many questions that arise
from the photograph itself. The main question seems to be, "why
don't the light beams "go past" the object?" I have an advantage
since I have the print in my possession. It appears to me that
in the background, one can see, although very faint, two beams
"going past" the object. In addition it seems to me, that there
is a third off to the right, again very faint. I use "Corel
Photo Paint" to view photos, and I can see it there as well.

I do agree however, that one would assume that the beams in the
foreground would "go past" the object. On the other hand, I
don't think the photo was altered in any way, as evidenced by
both images. I feel there is a "plausible explanation" for this
circumstance. Another oddity is the flashes from the artillery
are faint and merely points of light, which from my
"unprofessional point of view" indicates something with how the
picture was taken, the film, focus,camera, etc. Moreover I think
the answer to the "beams of light" not surpassing the object,
will fall under that explanation.

The importance of the photo, which seems to be getting "lost in
the shuffle" is that this is a picture of an "elliptical shaped"
  UFO (verbatim) from 1942, that is supported by eye witness
accounts, which incurred a congressional investigation, as to
the question of what it, and the other UFO's (reports of up to
15) were. Moreover, this was not the "first occurrence" of UFO's
entering our airspace shortly after the bombing of "Pearl
Harbor."

Regards,

Frank









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   Jul > Jul 21

                       Re: Trindade Island Case - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:32:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:49:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Hall


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:22:49 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:03:00 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:28:17 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>I've snipped out most of your posting, including my own comments
 >>I was preparing in a first draft, to get to the essential point,
 >>which is:

 >>>I still don't contend that these photos are fakes, I don't have
 >>>the evidence for that, but I think there are a number of
 >>>questions over them which need answering.

John:

 >Just to prove that psychosocial pelicans are capable of changing
 >their mind: having started the discussion on this case without
 >intending to question the photographs, only the validity of its
 >"multi-witness" status, the more I learn about it the more the
 >photographs themselves raise serious questions about its
 >validity.

I was pleased to see in a previous post that you had actually
started to read some of the case material; that is progress. But
now you are seeing "something unusual/suspicious" under every
bed. Those of us who actually investigated the case thoroughly
at the time already know the full story of what you are now
playing catch-up to learn, but so far you insist on taking
things out of context and nit-picking. There is absolutely no
doubt whatsoever about the authenticity of these photographs. It
boggles the mind that you could even make such a statement.

 >>If this had been your point all along - which it wasn't, but no
 >>matter - we wouldn't be having this discussion. _Of course_ all
 >>of us would like to have all relevant information, including
 >>that concerning the exact number of observers, including full
 >>witness statements, and the like, in hand. As I have said, this
 >>information so far has not been made available, at least in
 >>English translation, and the answers very likely lie in
 >>Brazilian Navy files. I and others have encouraged our Brazilian
 >>colleagues - all of whom, I am sorry to say, have kept silent so
 >>far-- to see what they can do to obtain the information that
 >>would answer the questions.all of us want answered.

 >>So let us end this discussion on a note of agreement. The moral
 >>of the story is this:

 >>If an American ufologist and a British psychosocial ufologist
 >>can at long last find common ground, why can't other warring
 >>tribes in the world, such as [fill in blank, citing peoples
 >>currently shooting at and/or bombing each other], do the same?
 >>Ah, if only the people of this suffering planet would follow the
 >>fine example set by ufologists....

 >Fine words, Jerry, but I can't quite see what the common ground
 >is. We don't know enough about the Trindade case to make a
 >definitive judgement. Well, yes, but that's hardly news. But
 >this is rather different from  your claim that Trindade is "one
 >of the most impressive UFO cases in modern history" largely
 >because of the number of witnesses.

What you should have said here is that YOU don't know enough
about the case to make a definitive judgment. We do. And how on
Earth can you continue to pretend that there were not dozens of
witnesses? Methinks there is something "very strange" in your
resoning processes.

  - Dick







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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:40:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:51:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:22:49 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:03:00 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:28:17 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


John,

 >>>I still don't contend that these photos are fakes, I don't have
 >>>the evidence for that, but I think there are a number of
 >>>questions over them which need answering.

 >Just to prove that psychosocial pelicans are capable of changing
 >their mind: having started the discussion on this case without
 >intending to question the photographs, only the validity of its
 >"multi-witness" status, the more I learn about it the more the
 >photographs themselves raise serious questions about its
 >validity.

Ah, well, so much for peace, love, and understanding, or the
capacity of the leopard of psychosocial ufology to change its
spots.

There may be grounds for "serious questions about [the Trindade
case's] validity," but you have yet to raise them. There are
certainly questions -- there usually are; otherwise, it wouldn't
be the UFO mystery, would it? -- but you have raised nothing
that supports what you obviously very much want to believe,
namely that the photos aren't about anything that would threaten
the safe, cozy worldview of the psychosocial ufologist. More
than four decades after the original event, not a single item of
evidence has emerged to cast doubt on the version of the
incident we had from the Brazilian Navy, press, and civilian
researchers such as Olavo Fontes. This notwithstanding a long
history of straw- grasping by pelicanists.

 >Fine words, Jerry, but I can't quite see what the common ground
 >is. We don't know enough about the Trindade case to make a
 >definitive judgement. Well, yes, but that's hardly news. But
 >this is rather different from your claim that Trindade is "one
 >of the most impressive UFO cases in modern history" largely
 >because of the number of witnesses.

For all the verbiage you have thrown at it, your argument has
gotten nowhere. First, you started out wanting us to believe no
other witnesses exist. When statements from Brazilian Navy
investigators stating the contrary flatly were brought into the
discussion, you switched the ground of the argument to something
else, namely the precise _number_ of witnesses. We can agree on
this much -- that we don't know the exact number -- but the
statements made by Navy investigators clearly imply a fair
number.

Let me repeat: Resolution of that issue is not possible without
access to Brazilian Navy records of the investigation. That's
something we'd all like to have. I hope our Brazilian colleagues
can help us here.


Jerry Clark








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             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:34:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:52:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Fleming


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>If I'm wrong about one photo being superimposed on the other in
 >>the LAufoFAKE image, then they would be the same photo, and one
 >>of them has been altered. But which one, and by whom?

 >One of the images must be altered. And for a simple reason
 >easily discerned without the second photo I provided. The light
 >beams simply should not just stop at the point of convergence
 >and form a glow around an object. There must be an opaque object
 >of sufficient size in the way to stop them.

Most of the cross section of each of the beams appears to be
blocked by a solid object. The smoke wouldn't have to entirely
block the parts of the beams getting past the object; it would
only have to attenuate their brightness enough that they didn't
show up on the film. And a diffuse glow is exactly what would be
expected if the smoke was interfering with the beams.

 >In the commonly available photo found on the Rense website it is
 >dubious at best whether ot not an object is even present. If
 >indeed there is an object, and it is large enough to block ALL
 >of the light beams, it should very easily be visible. But it is
 >not, and it takes a bit of imagination to even speculate an
 >object is there at all. Further, it can be seen that rounds
 >explode within the convergence of beams. To me this somewhat
 >illustrates that there is nothing there. There are no clearly
 >defined edges. No clearly discernable shape. Nothing more than
 >an ambiguous glow in the center which could easily be a result
 >of the light from all the beams being absored and suffused
 >within smoke from the AAA explosions.

It looks to me that an object is clearly defined. I would
concede that the "object" might still be illusory, assuming the
smoke was dense enough to completely block the beams without the
presence of any object. But there does appear to be something
caught in the beams that is not diffuse and has clearly defined
edges, at least in the version on the Rense web site. The
contrasty microfilm version shows an even more sharply-defined
region that corresponds to the apparent object in the photo.

 >The smoke does not appear substantial enough to completely
 >absorb the smoke at all so we should at least see a fairly clear
 >continuance of light beyond the point of convergence. This I
 >have been advocating for two years. And recently, in yet another
 >search of vague references to this incident I came upon the
 >second photo. Which lo and behold supports my contention well.
 >So I provided it here when I noticed this case being mentioned.
 >Unfortunately, the scan is of poor quality, and the contact
 >information outdated on the page.

 >http://cstl.semo.edu/us107/Mainst/Homefront/roberts/

 >Perhaps Dr. Maccabee can shed some light on why the beams would
 >not continue?

 >In the end though, I am led to believe this. That the first
 >photo as shown in the Times and on Rense.com, has indeed been
 >altered. By who and when is a good question.


Ironically, it appears that the provenance of what you say is a
"hoax" appears to have been established much more soundly than
the  other photograph that shows the searchlight beams crossing
at the point of convergence. Frank Warren, if I'm understanding
what he said correctly, found a microfilm of the photo in the LA
Times archives. The microfilm is of poorer quality than the
accompanying photo on the Rense page, but the positions of the
AA bursts match, the angles of the searchlight beams match, and,
of course, the shape of the "object" and blocking of the beams
match between the photo and the microfilm. For this photo to be
a hoax, whoever created it had to not only release the hoaxed
photo but also had to sneak into the LA Times archives and
insert the microfilm of it into the records. This seems to be a
highly dubious scenario. But it still might be worth checking
the written records at the newspaper to see if there's anything
stating when the microfilm was put in the archive.

As for the second photo you referenced, I think it's almost
certainly a different photo from the one that appears to show an
object. The second photo's poor quality suggests that it, too,
was taken from a microfilm. It shows no AA bursts at all, and
the searchlight beams are not all coming from the same
directions in both photos. Despite the lack of an established
provenance, I'm sure that it, too, is genuine. But it shows
nothing inconsistent with the more interesting photograph.

There is no proof that the photo on the Rense web site is not a
hoax, but so far I have seen absolutely no evidence whatever
that it is a hoax. The microfilm seems to be pretty good
evidence that it's genuine, although as I said, I'd be
interested in seeing if there is any additional information
about the microfilm in the newspaper's records.








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   Jul > Jul 21

                  Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:54:11 -0400
Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
familiar.  Some excerpts:

STANTON, Calif., July 20 -- The observations of a 5- year-old
girl, the only witness in the abduction of Samantha Runnion,
have emerged as critical in the investigation that led to the
arrest of Alejandro Avila in the kidnapping and murder case.

The girl, Sara Ahn, who was playing with Samantha near their
home when a man drove up and snatched her, gave investigators
precise details about the man's appearance, accent and car, the
police said here this morning.

"The picture she gave was very similar to him," says Jim
Amormino, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff-Coroner
Department. "The color of the car was right on, the chrome
wheels were right on, the accent was right on. We're talking
about a 5-year-old little girl."

A widely circulated composite drawing was based entirely on
Sarah's recollection and proved invaluable, the police said.
Sheriff Michael S. Carona said that Sarah might be used to
review a lineup, and that she would probably have to testify at
trial.....

[Police] impounded three car to which [Avila] had access... One
of the vehicles closely matched the description given by Sarah.

The entire article can be read at

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/21/national/21ABDU.html

Jerry Clark











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   Jul > Jul 21

             CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in Ontario

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:43:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:56:36 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in Ontario


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 21, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002


MORE 'RANDOMLY DOWNED AREAS' IN ONTARIO

Additional 'randomly downed areas' of crop have been found in
southern Ontario, in the areas of Alliston, Everett, Richmond
Hill, Brampton, Caledon and Nobleton, reported in the last week
up to July 19. All of these, including the previous reports
(Mansfield, Erin, Exeter) are in the southernmost tip of the
province, in the general region bordered by Lake Huron, Lake
Erie and Lake Ontario.

As at Erin and Exeter, the newest reports are all in wheat,
ranging from small up to approximately 'two football fields' in
size (600 feet or so, as at Erin) featuring random or quasi-
geometric appearing 'maze-like' and 'rough circular, squarish,
triangular and arrowhead shapes', 'V' and 'cross-hatch' crop lay
patterns (similar to those found at Beaumont, Alberta in 2000)
and bent / swollen / stretched nodes. In some areas the crop is
very flat to the ground.

Some additional photos (Erin) have also been added to the web site.

As these 'random formations' appear to be quite widespread now
in this region and of a similar nature, they are now grouped
under one listing on the web site; field reports, photos and
diagrams are included for those of specific particular interest
and which were able to be investigated on the ground by CCCRN
assistants, featuring interesting or unusual characteristics
such as the fairly complex lay patterns or deformed stalk nodes,
etc. which may in some cases at least, distinguish them from
ordinary wind damage or lodging. If however it is possible for
natural processes such as lodging to produce these kinds of
characteristics, then it is also important to learn more about
them as they are features also often found in the other
'standard' circles and other geometric formations. For this
reason these reports are included, for informational purposes.
While some of the earlier reports came during periods of heavy
rains, high winds or thunderstorms, the weather more recently
has been calmer in the region (hot and hazy or clear with little
or no wind) with only some brief periods of moderate or light
rain.

If any other formations appear in this area which are more
clearly of the regular circular or other geometric nature, they
will be listed independently on the web site as separate
reports.

As August and September approach, the typical prime time for
Canadian circles, we await any new reports from the prairies...

Crop Watch 2002 has also been updated on the web site (in the
Projects section).

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August/September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:

psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:

psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002






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   Jul > Jul 21

                      New UFO-Related Drawings Posted!

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:59:03 -0400
Subject: New UFO-Related Drawings Posted!


List,

I've posted some new doodles.  It's weird how flying
saucers tend to creep into drawings that don't even
have anything to do with UFOs...

Bes sure to check out "UFO Interior Scene."

http://mactonnies.com/doodles.html

--Mac Tonnies








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   Jul > Jul 21

              Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:34:35 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:00:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Acres


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>If I'm wrong about one photo being superimposed on the other in
 >>the LAufoFAKE image, then they would be the same photo, and one
 >>of them has been altered. But which one, and by whom?

 >One of the images must be altered. And for a simple reason
 >easily discerned without the second photo I provided. The light
 >beams simply should not just stop at the point of convergence
 >and form a glow around an object. There must be an opaque object
 >of sufficient size in the way to stop them.

 >In the commonly available photo found on the Rense website it is
 >dubious at best whether ot not an object is even present. If
 >indeed there is an object, and it is large enough to block ALL
 >of the light beams, it should very easily be visible. But it is
 >not, and it takes a bit of imagination to even speculate an
 >object is there at all. Further, it can be seen that rounds
 >explode within the convergence of beams. To me this somewhat
 >illustrates that there is nothing there. There are no clearly
 >defined edges. No clearly discernable shape. Nothing more than
 >an ambiguous glow in the center which could easily be a result
 >of the light from all the beams being absored and suffused
 >within smoke from the AAA explosions.

 >The smoke does not appear substantial enough to completely
 >absorb the smoke at all so we should at least see a fairly clear
 >continuance of light beyond the point of convergence. This I
 >have been advocating for two years. And recently, in yet another
 >search of vague references to this incident I came upon the
 >second photo. Which lo and behold supports my contention well.
 >So I provided it here when I noticed this case being mentioned.
 >Unfortunately, the scan is of poor quality, and the contact
 >information outdated on the page.

 >http://cstl.semo.edu/us107/Mainst/Homefront/roberts/

 >Perhaps Dr. Maccabee can shed some light on why the beams would
 >not continue?

 >In the end though, I am led to believe this. That the first
 >photo as shown in the Times and on Rense.com, has indeed been
 >altered. By who and when is a good question.

Hi Paul et al.

This may be some help, or it may just complicate this puzzle
further, but apparently A.P. (Associated Press) ran a photo &
article, but it could be the same one as they mention ack-ack in
the pic. You have to be a member to even get into their site. I
sent them an email. but got no response. Are there any journo's
out there?

Taken from: http://www.ufo.it/testi/1942.htm

"Associated Press ran a photo that with its accompanying
caption, tells a different story. It clearly shows "an object"
caught in the searchlight beams, with anti-aircraft shells
bursting overhead"......








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   Jul > Jul 22

                      50th Anniversary Of DC Sightings

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:42:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:15:56 -0400
Subject: 50th Anniversary Of DC Sightings


The 50th Anniversary of The Washington DC Sightings has made it
into the Washington post.

In the Style section. I spoke for several hours with the writer,
who visited my house.

Although he mentions the FBI "X" file, he says nothing about
what the FBI was told on the same say as General Samford's press
conference. See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html








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   Jul > Jul 22

                    BUFOSC'S Rendlesham FOI Breakthrough

From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:32:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:50:19 -0400
Subject: BUFOSC'S Rendlesham FOI Breakthrough


Dear All,

We should like to make the following important statement:

Eric Morris received a letter from the MOD on Friday, 18th July.
The British Ministry of Defence wrote to him in response to an
official complaint we had made, through Mike Hall, MP, relating
to its decision to withhold three documents we had requested
under the provisions of the British government's 1997 Code Of
Practice On Access To Government Information.

We had asked for the remaining three papers from the MOD's
Rendlesham File to be released. Our initial request was refused,
so we appealed via the Parliamentary Ombudsman. Mike Hall was
very skeptical about our chances of success, but we appealed
anyway. We carefully constructed our letter, bearing in mind the
MOD's own reasons for withholding the documents, as stated in
Part 2 of the Code, as follows - see:

http://www.lcd.gov.uk/foi/ogcode983.htm


"2. Internal discussion and advice. Information whose disclosure
would harm the frankness and candour of internal discussion,
including: proceedings of Cabinet and Cabinet committees;
internal opinion, advice, recommendation, consultation and
deliberation;  projections and assumptions relating to internal
policy analysis; analysis of alternative policy options and
information relating to rejected policy options;  confidential
communications between departments, public bodies and regulatory
bodies."

We argued that release of these over 20-year-old documents
should not prejudice (2), as stated above.

The Ombudsman agreed with us and stated, in his letter, that the
remaining documents would be released _only_ because of our
official complaint. It also emerged that just 12 people,
including five members of BUFOSC, had asked for these documents.

Thanks to BUFOSC the remaining documents should be released to
us "within 1-2 weeks", according to our contact, Mr. Coleman, at
the MOD.

We believe that we have set an important precedent here. The MOD
will no longer be able to use (2) as an excuse for denying
sensible requests for information from members of the public. In
other words, officials will have to give rather better reasons
for withholding documents! The provisions of the Code of
Practice and the subsequent Freedom of Information Act (2000)
are, we believe, clear and allow for much of this type of
information to be released upon request.

We should like to point out that MOD staff have been very
helpful in this matter. Although we naturally disagreed with the
initial decision, we were kept fully informed throughout the
appeal. Indeed, it seems that the MOD is being very helpful to
certain researchers where it is clear that they are not making
unnecessary or "vexatious" requests for information.

So, it is thanks to BUFOSC that these documents are to be
released. That much is clear from the MOD's letter. We doubt
that the documents in question will tell us much about
Rendlesham. It is the principle of the thing that we were
challenging.

We believe that it is now possible for Ufologists, and other
bona fide researchers, to request information and use this case
to justify the release of further documents. Although each case
is investigated on its merit, our actions in this regard have
moved things forward considerably.

True, it has taken several months to get to where we are, but we
are glad we made the complaint.

In due course we shall be making the documents available for all
to see. We'll do this as soon as possible.

Many thanks,

Tim Matthews
Eric Morris

British UFO Studies Centre, Northwich, Cheshire.







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   Jul > Jul 22

                  Re: Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes - Cohen

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:18:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:54:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes - Cohen


 >From: Bob Pratt <bobpratt@gate.net>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:39:24 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Bob Pratt's Web Site Changes

 >Hello,

 >This is to inform you that I have made a few changes in
 >my web site:

 >http://www.bobpratt.org

 >hoping to make the headlines on my stories more
 >understandable.

 >Months after going online I realized that what was
 >obvious to me is not necessarily obvious to others. So I
 >have added a line to all the headlines, hoping viewers will
 >better understand what a story is about.

 >In addition, I have added a links page (at the bottom of
 >the opening page), hoping to repay the kindness of many
 >of you who added my site to their links page.


Bob,

Your site is just fine. What I find excellent about it is that
you were one more person that started out thinking you could
solve UFO cases and then discovered for yourself, via your own,
first-hand investigations, that they refused to be easily
dismissed.

Many of us that were tuned in to this whole thing can
remember reading the many articles you wrote. From
looking at your web site,

http://www.bobpratt.org

it is most interesting to now be able to get a personal
perspective from you concerning your own involvement in same.

So, welcome to the UFO UpDates mail list. I am sure we will all
look forward to hearing any comments you may have concerning
various cases discussed on this list. I am sure your
contributions will be greatly appreciated.


Most sincerely,

Jerry Cohen
http://www.cohenufo.org/









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   Jul > Jul 22

             Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:11:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:31:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison - Warren


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Photograpic Comparison

 >>If I'm wrong about one photo being superimposed on the other in
 >>the LAufoFAKE image, then they would be the same photo, and one
 >>of them has been altered. But which one, and by whom?

 >One of the images must be altered. And for a simple reason
 >easily discerned without the second photo I provided. The light
 >beams simply should not just stop at the point of convergence
 >and form a glow around an object. There must be an opaque object
 >of sufficient size in the way to stop them.

Hi Paul,

In looking at the image from the link you provided, assuming
it's authentic, and I believe it is, it appears to me that these
are indeed two different photos. However, I don't believe that
one has to conclude that one of the images must be altered.
I do agree that a large opaque object would stop the light
from passing said object. The Chief of Police at Long Beach
described the objects as silvery looking planes which might
explain the glow around the object from light refraction.

 >In the commonly available photo found on the Rense website it is
 >dubious at best whether ot not an object is even present. If
 >indeed there is an object, and it is large enough to block ALL
 >of the light beams, it should very easily be visible. But it is
 >not, and it takes a bit of imagination to even speculate an
 >object is there at all. Further, it can be seen that rounds
 >explode within the convergence of beams. To me this somewhat
 >illustrates that there is nothing there. There are no clearly
 >defined edges. No clearly discernable shape. Nothing more than
 >an ambiguous glow in the center which could easily be a result
 >of the light from all the beams being absored and suffused
 >within smoke from the AAA explosions.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that "it is dubious at
best", whether an object is present in the afore-mentioned
photograph. I think most people viewing the photo that appeared
in the Times on 2-25-42, particularly from the print I
provided from the negative, would agree that there is indeed an
object at the hub of the search lights. Moreover, I find it
difficult to fathom that searchlight operators, during an air
raid from what was thought to be Japanese aircraft, at the time,
would co-ordinate an effort to converge their lights at nothing,
in order for artillery batteries to lob shells at thin air in
an inhabited civilian area, i.e., Los Angeles and it's suburbs.
Let us not forget the eye witness reports of the object, as well
as the caption that was published with the photograph saying,
"this picture taken during blackout shows nine beams converging
on an 'object' in the sky in the Culver City area."

 >The smoke does not appear substantial enough to completely
 >absorb the smoke at all so we should at least see a fairly clear
 >continuance of light beyond the point of convergence. This I
 >have been advocating for two years. And recently, in yet another
 >search of vague references to this incident I came upon the
 >second photo. Which lo and behold supports my contention well.
 >So I provided it here when I noticed this case being mentioned.
 >Unfortunately, the scan is of poor quality, and the contact
 >information outdated on the page.

I personally cannot discern smoke from the image. The entire
photograph appears foggy or cloudy to me, although newspaper
reports said that night was clear and millions of stars could
be seen. (As would be expected during a blackout). However I
think it is safe to say that there was obviously smoke after the
explosions. I believe that the explanation for that anomaly
will also explain the lack of bleed-over from the search
lights. In addition the exploding artillery shells that were
described as brilliant exploding stars only appear as points
of light in the photograph. Again I believe the answers lie in
the realm of photography, i.e., film, focus, equipment, exposure
etc.

 >http://cstl.semo.edu/us107/Mainst/Homefront/roberts/

 >Perhaps Dr. Maccabee can shed some light on why the beams would
 >not continue?

 >In the end though, I am led to believe this. That the first
 >photo as shown in the Times and on Rense.com, has indeed been
 >altered. By who and when is a good question.

Again, I respectfully disagree, based on the available data.
Assuming that LA Times photographic archives have not been
tampered with, the picture taken in the early hours of 2-25-'42
as evidenced by the print from the negative, is the same as the
print that appeared in the papers the following day, as
evidenced by the photocopy from microfilm of said issue.
Finally, having photographic software, and the ability to
analyze the photograph in various ways, i.e., adjusting the
contrast brightness etc., the shape becomes very clear and
omitting the bomb bursts that appear either at the object, or in
front of it, the shape is almost perfectly elliptical. Since
we don't know what the object is, as it is after all a UFO
(verbatim), we also don't know it's properties in relationship
to electromagnetic radiation i.e., light. So, not having all
the factors of the equation, e.g., not knowing what the
object is, and not knowing how, or with what type of
equipment the photograph was taken with, one can only
speculate as to the reason the beams don't seem go beyond
the object.


Regards,

Frank Warren







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   Jul > Jul 22

                        CIA Freedom-of-DISinformation

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 03:52:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:35:42 -0400
Subject: CIA Freedom-of-DISinformation


TO: Ms. Kathryn I. Dyer
    Information and Privacy Coordinator
    U. S. Central Intelligence Agency
    Washington, DC 20505

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
     3518 Martha Custis Drive
     Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: July 22, 2002

Once again, by your letter to me of July 12, 2002, your agency
has erred in its characterization of my alleged unpaid balance
of CIA charges levied for processing my 24-year-old FOIA request
No. F-1978-01025 (re CIA files on George Adamski).

To reclarify this issue for you, I'm enclosing a copy of CIA
official Edmund Cohen's Aug. 7, 1998, letter to me. You'll note
that his second paragraph absolves me of any debt to your agency
in this matter, to wit:

"With regard to the remaining balance on your 1978 FOIA request,
we apologize for our failure to note that we had waived the
remaining balance owed for your request cited in our 8 April
1998 letter. All action with respect to this earlier request is
considered complete."

Accordingly, Ms. Dyer, please promptly and fully proceed with
your fulfillment of my FOIA reqest No. F-2002-01130 (re the
NARA-censored IAB memo of July 1947). In the course of doing
so, you might wish to remove any red flag that may be plaguing
whatever file you've created to record and monitor my FOIA-
request history.

Larry W. Bryant

P.S. Should I send YOU a bill for all MY records-search effort,
time, and supplies spent on this re-clarification?

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq

Edmund Cohen

Chairman, Subcommittee on Government Management, Information,
and Technology, U. S. House of Representatives

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


HERE'S the text of Ms. Dyer's July 12, 2002, letter to L.W.B.:

Dear Mr. Bryant:

This acknowledges receipt of your 12 June 2002 letter requesting
records under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA). Specifically, your request is for:

"... the full content (with its related tabbed enclosures) of
Intelligence Advisory Board memorandum of July 17, 1947... the
entire contents of [our] declassification-review case file on
the sought-for records... to include all CIA-generated and CIA-
  received records...."

For identification purposes we have assigned your request the
number referenced above [No. F-2002-01130]. Please refer to this
number in future correspondence.

We are unable to process your request because our records
indicate that you have not paid the balance of $40.67 you owe
for your earlier FOIA request number F-1978-01025. As explained
to you in previous correspondence (most recently on 11 August
1995 and 13 September 1995, respectively,) "no additional
records services can be provided... until the requester and
associated requesters have paid all outstanding charges for
services rendered." Since that correspondence to you, we have
received one $20.00 payment (December 1995) towards the
outstanding charges. FOIA regulations preclude our responding to
your new request before your outstanding bill has been settled,
as described in the enclosed copy of 32 CFR [Sec.] 1900.11.

You may re-submit your request when you have paid the $40.67
due.







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   Jul > Jul 22

               Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:14:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:42:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy -


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:41:22 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy - Andrews

 >From: Colin Andrews c/o Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date Sun 21 July 2002
 >Subject Crop Circles, Colin Andrews and Conspiracy

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400
 >>Subject: Crop Circles, Colin Andrews & Conspiracy

 >>Note: This is an interesting one. I love how nameless, ID
 >>less people can claim to be anybody, in this case "CIA" and
 >>people buy the story. Even more interesting is the 'US author'
 >>that is a 'her' that wanted to write a book with Colin and he
 >>declined it because he thought it was a scheme to access his
 >>personal data base. Personally I would think it would be fairly
 >>easy to put a name with the guy who was "studying foxes" as this
 >>guy is supposedly fingered as the CIA guy.

 >>If Colin Andrews is reading this List, one would appreciate
 >>any comment he would have on the Michael Irving post

 >>Any of our UK readers/researchers care to comment on this one?

 >---

 >>>Begin Colin Andrews/alleged CIA post

 >>>Source: Rense.com

 >>>http://rense.com/general27/cia.htm

 >>>How The CIA Tried To Thwart Crop Circles And Colin Andrews
 >>>From Michael Irving
 >>>World-Action
 >>>michaeli@globalnet.co.uk
 >>>Rumor Mill News Reading Room Forum

 >>>7-19-2

 >>>Colin Andrews was the world's leading authority on Crop
 >>>Patterns, right from the time this amazing phenomenon came onto
 >>>the world's stage in the mid 1980s.

 >Most of the interview with Jon King is accurate. Where the CIA
 >contractors name has been omitted, it will remain omitted. The
 >person is well known and the facts surrounding who she works for
 >is 100%. More about part of this story (i.e. the CIA approach to
 >myself in UK is about to be released in the new DVD (next
 >month)and I will not spend more time on that now - see my web
 >site: www.CropCircleInfo.com

 >Now where this latest post goes off the edge into pure
 >speculation and inaccuracies is with the added comments of one
 >rather strange man, Michael Irving. All that he has to say about
 >the matter surrounding my work for Mr. Laurence Rockefeller is
 >untrue and also the CIA having found a way to silence me or have
 >me put out misinformation is also total nonsense.

Dave, Colin, List,

I am appreciative of Colin's comments. As he stated most of the
King interview is accurate. Apparently where Irving goes
crackers is with the tale that the CIA silenced Colin and that
Colin worked for Rockefeller.

As to the alleged CIA person, anybody can claim to be anybody
working for any number of govt agencys or contractors. Awhile
back we had a case where an individual impersonated a police
officer complete with badge, uniform etc etc. He still wasn't a
cop.

I actually knew a person some years back that worked for a
contractor. He had a personal interest in old missile sites and
silos. When he would go on vacation he would flash his official
ID and could get into most all of the old missile sites as the
private property owners rolled over and gave him access as soon
as they saw the ID. When people would ask he would even claim
some kind of DOD official need or involvement.

The point being is even if this person in fact worked for some
kind of contractor allegedly connected to the CIA that doesn't
mean that the CIA/contractor or anybody else has an official
interest or involvement in crop circles. I am not defending the
CIA at all. Only pointing out the inherit dangers of listening
and believing people who don't even have an ID.

It would seem that we actually have no independent proof of this
alleged CIA person/contractors only the word of a guy claiming
to be. If we buy into that kind of material then we should give
great credence in all the alleged intel community souces that
were telling us that ET was going to land on a mountaintop in
Arizona in Dec of 2000, or how mass landings were going to
happen in the desert SW on April 24th 1997. All according to
"top dog" high level, never-to-be-doubted, top-drawer people.

Cheers,

Robert







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   Jul > Jul 22

                              Monkeyman Is Back

From: Karl Rotstan <karl.rotstan@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:53:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:44:27 -0400
Subject: Monkeyman Is Back


Source: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_633538.html


'Monkey man' reports spread fear in Indian state

Reports of a 'monkey man' in India have reappeared a year after
panic over the mystery creature hit the capital, Delhi.

The current reports are from the northern state of Bihar's
Jehanabad, Rohatas, Ara and Patna districts.

The Dainik Ujala newspaper says several residents claim they've
been bitten or scratched by a "black monkey with coloured lights
flashing from its eyes."

Patna's superintendent of police O N Bhaskar is dismissing the
reports, saying they are down to someone's overactive
imagination.

Prabhakar Mishra, a priest at a Shiva temple, said: "It looks
like Hanuman (the Hindu monkey god) is angry."

He added: "I have asked visitors to offer prayers to him seven
times a day to protect themselves."

But Mr Bhaskar said: "There is no real evidence of any monkey
being involved in the attacks. We will not hesitate to take
tough action against people who are spreading baseless rumours"

Resident Pawan Kumar Niyogi who was sleeping on the terrace of
his house claims he was attacked by "a 5ft-tall monkey-like
animal."

He said: "I was terrified and thought my life was going to end
but it merely scratched me on the shoulder before jumping off
the roof."

People who normally sleep in the open are now staying in their
homes while groups of residents carrying torches are keeping
night-time vigils on the streets.







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   Jul > Jul 22

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:41:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:48:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >familiar.  Some excerpts:

 >STANTON, Calif., July 20 -- The observations of a 5- year-old
 >girl, the only witness in the abduction of Samantha Runnion,
 >have emerged as critical in the investigation that led to the
 >arrest of Alejandro Avila in the kidnapping and murder case.

<snip>

When I was about 27 years old, I was the general manager of a
theatre troupe based out of Toronto (Famous People Players) and
one afternoon I was sitting in my office, on the phone, when I
happened to glance out the window. I saw a body lying on the
pavement in front of a car (as though the person had just been
hit by a car) and, to my utter horror a man jumped out of the
car, picked up the body, put it in the trunk of the car and sped
off.

I hung up the phone and called 911. Soon the police decended on
where I worked and questioned me for a good hour, basically
saying I couldn't have seen what I saw. I described the who was
lying on the ground, right down to his stripped shirt, jeans,
etc., the guy who picked him up and put him in the trunk, the
car, etc. I asked if maybe it was a movie. No, they said, no
permits had been given for a movie. However, they said, they had
received six other calls the same as mine.

Then why are you bothering me? I asked? They said because
everyone was afraid it was a Mafia hit and nobody would want to
testify at a trial.

Then the police really hammered me. "There is no way," they
said, "that a man could pick up a body as easily as you describe
and put it in a trunk of a car."

"That's not true," I said. "I have six brothers and any one of
them could have done what I saw."

So then the police wanted coffee and we were going next door to
get some when Lo and Behold! I said "There is your victim!"
Exactly as I had described - a bunch of students who hadn't
bothered to get a permit.

Now, my initial shock at what I saw made me call the police.
Other people called. All except naive mois were too afraid to
come forward, thinking it was a Mafai hit. I was the one who
suggested a film shoot. The police said what I saw was
impossible. I said it wasn't. I was right. They were wrong. But,
happily, it wasn't 'real'.

So, you can see something shocking and it can have a mundane
explanation. But that doesn't mean the witness described exactly
what happened.


Kelly








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:31:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:50:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >familiar.

<snip>

 >The entire article can be read at

 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/21/national/21ABDU.html

Hi:

Avoiding the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all
become familiar on this List, what exactly is the significance
of this, Jerry?

A suspect was located who had been seen in the neighborhood and
who matched the description given by the little girl. A human
being was arrested and is now is custody. As near as I can tell
from the newspaper, the witness didn't report that he passed
through any walls, or leave in a flying saucer, or that sort of
thing.

The article calls to mind the masthead motto of the Sacremento
Bee, "Life. Captured daily."


Clear skies,

Bob Young






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   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:54:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Hi Jerry, List,

This hits on something that I have commented on for quite
awhile.

 >Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >familiar. Some excerpts:

According to the skeptibunkers:

Any witness to anything _except_ UFO or UFO related abduction is
considered to be dependable, reliable, and good. However if the
same witness claimed to have also seen a UFO skeptics would
instantly tell us about the unreliability of witness, why it is
a hoax, misidentification of natural phenomena and so on and
should be disregarded for various asundry reasons.

 >STANTON, Calif., July 20 -- The observations of a 5-year-old
 >girl, the only witness in the abduction of Samantha Runnion,
 >have emerged as critical in the investigation that led to the
 >arrest of Alejandro Avila in the kidnapping and murder case.

 >The girl, Sara Ahn, who was playing with Samantha near their
 >home when a man drove up and snatched her, gave investigators
 >precise details about the man's appearance, accent and car, the
 >police said here this morning.

Police and other law enforcement don't seem to mind using, and
relying upon witness testimony. The skeptibunkers will probably
have an elaborate tale about why this is all different then the
sighting of a UFO.

 >"The picture she gave was very similar to him," says Jim
 >Amormino, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff-Coroner
 >Department. "The color of the car was right on, the chrome
 >wheels were right on, the accent was right on. We're talking
 >about a 5-year-old little girl."

 >A widely circulated composite drawing was based entirely on
 >Sarah's recollection and proved invaluable, the police said.
 >Sheriff Michael S. Carona said that Sarah might be used to
 >review a lineup, and that she would probably have to testify at
 >trial.....

Gee whiz the drawing that was used to finger the dude came from
the little girl. Hmm, wonder if a 5 year old girl shot a
photograph of a UFO if she would be taken seriously by the
skeptics... nah probably not.

 >[Police] impounded three car to which [Avila] had access... One
 >of the vehicles closely matched the description given by Sarah.

 >The entire article can be read at

 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/21/national/21ABDU.html

I am curious how the skeptibunkers will rationalize and explain
away why on one hand if this involved a UFO account they would
have instantly written off the encounter as unreliable and to be
disregarded for various reasons. Since it involved the abduction
of a little girl, suddenly witness testimony is acceptable and
ok.

The bottom line question to the skepti bunkers: Is witness
testimony to be considered reliable whether it involves an
abduction of a little girl or UFO related? Remember what ever
criteria of reliability for witness testimony can also be
applied to UFO witnesses as well.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jul > Jul 23

              Re: Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:15:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:56:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem -


 >From: Royce J. Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Crop Circle Research - Part of the Problem
 >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:40:19 -0700

 >I just received a report on a formation that appeared here in
 >Oregon. While the report is well written, there's one big
 >problem with it:

 >"DOWSING REPORT: Michael Newark of Coventry, England, who
 >practices the age-old technique of dowsing and dowses British
 >formations in person, dowsed the photo of the Forest Grove
 >formation and reported as follows: It was what he calls "Circle
 >Maker" in origin, all-powerful, with a large amount of absorbed
 >aura that influences the countryside for miles. He says it took
 >47 seconds to form with its power coming from 3 miles 600 yards
 >down the planet. The highest aura he found in the key section
 >with the small circles second in potency and the center circle
 >less powerful."

 >Anyone else seeing the problem here? I didn't know if I should
 >laugh, cry or just get out of UFOs all together. Dowsing a
 >photo? I'm just curious, was a crystal ball reading also taken?
 >Perhaps aura photos? I'm amazed that this even made it into the
 >report.

<snip>

Hello Royce:

Thanks for a healthy laugh, I kinda needed it!

BTW, my ISP has been up and down, mostly down for the last 12
hours or so. If anybody is missing a reply from me, that's why.

Best

- Larry Hatch








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   Jul > Jul 23

             EW: Washington DC UFO Sightings, Fifty Years Later

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:34:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:58:58 -0400
Subject: EW: Washington DC UFO Sightings, Fifty Years Later


From: The Electric Warrior (Kurt Jonach)

--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Web Log July 23, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
WASHINGTON DC UFO SIGHTINGS, FIFTY YEARS LATER
ufo & extraterrestrial intelligence

artwork: UFOs Over Washington DC

http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewUFOWashingtonDCThumb.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - Fifty years ago, unidentified flying
objects over our nation's capital made headlines in well
respected newspapers nationwide. The story of UFOs over
Washington DC, and the government cover-up of official
investigations, is one of the most famous and enduring
controversies in Ufology.

Mysterious targets were detected by two independent radars, one
civilian and one military. The blips disappeared as Air Force
interceptor jets cruised the area, only to reappear when pilots
returned to base. Strange lights were seen in the sky by
experienced pilots and observed from the ground. Radar experts
said they were solid.

"We have no evidence they are flying saucers; conversely we have
no evidence they are not flying saucers. We don't know what they
are," an unidentified Air Force spokesman said at the time.
Newspaper reporters pressed for answers that government
officials were at a loss to provide. Even the President demanded
an explanation about UFOs over the White House. One week later,
they came back.

Facing a public uproar, the Air Force director of intelligence,
Maj. Gen. John Samford, held a long and rambling press
conference at the Pentagon. Reporters subsequently repeated the
only explanation they thought made any sense: The mysterious
phenomenon were caused by temperature inversion, a layer of hot
air, detected by radar.

Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a physicist for the US Navy, was the first
to use the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to obtain
previously secret FBI documents, which he calls "the real X-
files." As told by Maccabee in his book "UFO-FBI Connection",
Gen. Samford's office briefed the FBI, suggesting that it was
not impossible that the objects were ships from another planet,
such as Mars.

"Ships from another planet?", writes Maccabee. "If the press had
found out what Gen. Samford's staff had told the FBI, there
would have been an explosion at the press conference!"

The Washington Post ran a story this weekend in their Sunday
edition, recalling the events of 50 years ago. There's a
hilarious account of how Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt, Project Blue
Book's official UFO investigator, was seemingly kept out of the
loop, like a real-life Fox Mulder. The Post's lengthy, well-
researched article has even been generally well received by the
UFO community.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

21-Jul-02
Alien Armada!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

(Washington Post) - It was Saturday night, July 19, 1952 -- 50
years ago this weekend -- one of the most famous dates in the
bizarre history of UFOs. Before the night was over, a pilot
reported seeing unexplained objects, radar at two local Air
Force bases -- Andrews and Bolling -- picked up the UFOs, and
two Air Force F-94 jets streaked over Washington, searching for
flying saucers. Then, a week later, it happened all over
again...


28-Jul-1952
'Saucer' Outran Jet, Pilot Reveals

http://www.rense.com/general8/flew.htm

(Washington Post/Rense.com) - Military secrecy veils an
investigation of the mysterious, glowing aerial objects that
showed up on radar screens in the Washington area Saturday night
for the second consecutive week. A jet pilot sent up by the Air
Defense Command to investigate the objects reported he was
unable to overtake the glowing lights moving near Andrews Air
Force Base.

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
July 23, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the content of Web
links. Content reproduced here is for informational purposes
only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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                      Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:05:12 -0400
Subject: Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday?


SOURCE: Diario "El Nuevo Dia" (Coronel Suarez, Prov. of Buenos Aires)
DATE: July 18, 2002

MOUSE TAKES A HOLIDAY?

Perhaps to promote tourism, perhaps for reasons unknown--the
fact remains that the red-muzzled mice have gotten their winter
break early this year.

The voracious rodents, which according to SENASA are responsible
for the bovine mutilations which have caused such commotion
among the population, have not been active for a while and the
only explanation is that they are on winter recess.

In recent days, professional experts of the province of La Pampa
have said with absolute certainty that these little animals do
not exist--and have never existed--in that province. The
explanation given by the ineffable director of SENASA is
therefore not understood at all. This should not be surprising,
since it was Bernardo Can=E9 himself who said prior to this
astonishing scientific find that the mutilations were due to
esoteric rituals, then that they did not exist, then that too
much gin was being drunk in La Pampa, and finally--at the
maximum level of unreason--that "mysterious surgeons" played a
role in these events.

To undercut his statements even further, there are unanswered
questions. For example: at what medical school did the mice
study the art of making such perfect geometric incisions? Where
did they find the instruments needed to cauterize wounds? Where
did the mice store the thousands of liters of water missing from
the "Australian" water tanks? There are hundreds of other
questions that are still unanswered.

Meanwhile, speaking in a low voice so as not to be disparaged,
many veterinarians of Coronel Suarez believe that that the
explanation hasn't got the least footing and is incongruent no
matter how its examined. And although you may not believe it,
the cases continue to occur, but no one reports them to avoid
trouble.

What is strange is that the communication media have been
satisfied with this answer. Or at least the major national media
outlets, since in the provinces and smaller newspapers it is
still said that the explanation is unworkable. The fact remains
that Coronel Suarez has experienced at least three cases during
the past month.

This strange silence speaks volumes. Has an order been issued to
cease discussion of the subject? Does the presence of U.S.
experts who arrived in large trucks and wielding costly
equipment in La Pampa during the month of June have anything to
do with it? There are many questions, and unanswered mysteries.

But it isn't true that the red-muzzled mouse has taken a
holiday. The truth is that at someone's behest, its gone into
hiding.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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                  Cattle Mutilations In La Troja Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:39:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:07:34 -0400
Subject: Cattle Mutilations In La Troja Argentina


SOURCE: Diario El Tribuno (Salta, Argentina)
DATE: July 21, 2002

CATTLE MUTILATIONS AT LA TROJA
**Macabre discovery in an almost inaccessible wilderness**

Juan Antonio Abarz=FAa of El Tribuno

Provincial Justice and Police initiate activites aimed at
determining the causes fo the strange deaths of six bovines
found in a sector known as El Cajon, inside the La Troja ranch,
and in a dense, nearly inaccessible forested wilderness some 75
km east of the Saltan capital and bordering the Department of
Met=E1n. The animals' deaths have bewildered researchers and
veterinarians who participated in a survey expedition mandadated
by Judge Carlos M. Aguero Molina.

The vets performed autopsies on two of the animals and submitted
samples of tissue and organs to the Police Biochemistry Lab and
the School of Natural Sciences of the National Univ. of la Salta
(UNSa).

The initial action is aimed at establishaing if there were
bacterial or virological  agents present capable of triggering
the mysterious situation. The request forwarded to the UNSa
scientists seeks to find details on some strange coleopteryds
("cascarudos") of large size which were found on some of the
animal carcasses. Police investigators Cesar Jimenez and Marcelo
Choque want to determine if the insect is carnivorous or not.

The six cows, who were missing eyes, tongue, the flesh covering
the lower maxillaries and (in three specimens) the genitalia and
udders of the female bovines, died in an area 6 km around, and
were almost exactly 1,500 meters from each one. Despite the
difficulty [of negotiating the terrain] and the tortuous paths
followed by the cows, if an imaginary line were drawn between
each one of the carcasses, an almost perfect isoceles triangle
could be formed, a matter which could be coincidental but which
nonetheless astonished the police expedition, headed by the
chief of the 4th Sheriff's Office of the capital area, Miguel
Armando Miranda.

A team from "El Tribuno" visited the area--which can only be
visited on foot and requires a forced march two hours long--
corroborated the findings. Beyond the peculiarities of the
geometric arrangement of the deaths, there are others which are
no less disturbing: the bovines were untouched by the usual
carrion creatures, did not give off an odor, no traces of blood
were found and their flesh did not appear to have entered the
process of decomposition although it is certain that the deaths
occurred at least ten days ago.

It is also curious that the animals died simultaneously and
suddenly, since they fell as though struck down, without having
made the motions characteristic of the struggle for life. Of the
six bovines, only one left traces of having made any movement
prior to its death: it made a small circumference with one of
its front legs. Then it collapsed and remained still.

"I never saw anything like it in my life," said Tito Yurquina,
70, the animals' owner, whose family has been in the area for
over four generations, having engaged in cattle ranching over
that time. A similar opinion was voiced by Margarita Maidana,
77, the clan's matriarch, who made the report to the Police. In
this regard, her daughter, Romualda Sarapura, 38, who claims to
"have been born and raised in the area" said succinctly: "I have
never seen anything like it. Nor have I heard of anything
similar."

Meanwhile, two other family members, Carmen Salva, 15, and Nelly
Tarifa, 51, added an item of information which revives the
belief that all of this has extraterrene causes: both women
swear that in the days preceding the macabre find "strange and
powerful lights were seen in the skies."

"I saw a large circle, like a full moon over the hills. It gave
off intermitten beams of different colors," said  the teenager,
a student at the Sargento Cabral school in the capital, who was
helping out with farm tasks during her winter vacation.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:09:54 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in


 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:43:33 +0000
 >Subject: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in Ontario


 >CCCRN NEWS
 >The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

 >http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

 >July 21, 2002

  _____________________________


 >CROP WATCH 2002


 >MORE 'RANDOMLY DOWNED AREAS' IN ONTARIO

<snip>

 >As at Erin and Exeter, the newest reports are all in wheat,
 >ranging from small up to approximately 'two football fields' in
 >size (600 feet or so, as at Erin) featuring random or quasi-
 >geometric appearing 'maze-like' and 'rough circular, squarish,
 >triangular and arrowhead shapes', 'V' and 'cross-hatch' crop lay
 >patterns (similar to those found at Beaumont, Alberta in 2000)
 >and bent / swollen / stretched nodes. In some areas the crop is
 >very flat to the ground.

Good Morning All -

I have often wondered when a football field became a standard of
measure but here it's just confusing. My first thought, from an
American perspective, was that the translation from "two
football fields" to "600" feet was wrong, because two football
fields would be 600 yards or 1800 feet. My second thought was
maybe it is the European or worldwide definition of football
meaning soccer which would change the size. My third thought was
this was Canada which has an "American"-style of football but
the field is longer than for the game played in the United
States so that changes the dimensions once again.

So now I have no idea what two football fields means in terms of
the actual size, only that it was large. What I see here is that
a term that means one thing to me as an American means something
else to our colleagues in other parts of the world and something
else again to our friends in Canada... so, let's drop the use of
football field as a term of measurement and use something clever
like feet, yards, meters or even rods and leagues. At least we
all understand what they mean.


KRandle








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   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:37:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:12:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:31:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >>Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


Bob,

 >>Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >>"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >>relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >>eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >>the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >>familiar.

 >Avoiding the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all
 >become familiar on this List, what exactly is the significance
 >of this, Jerry?

I doubt that a single other person on this List had a hard time
grasping the significance of this, Bob. Ever heard of the
adjective "disingenuous"? To save you the trouble of looking
it up in the dictionary, I will tell you that it's what your
question is.

 >A suspect was located who had been seen in the neighborhood and
 >who matched the description given by the little girl. A human
 >being was arrested and is now is custody. As near as I can tell
 >from the newspaper, the witness didn't report that he passed
 >through any walls, or leave in a flying saucer, or that sort of
 >thing.

You're grasping at straws. Not for the first time.

Eyewitness testimony, pelicanist cliche and stereotype
notwithstanding, sometimes can be highly accurate indeed. I know
that pains you to hear, but accounts like this one are a
cautionary tale to those who would reinvent witness testimony -
after all, eyewitness testimony can be discarded without a
second thought, according to pelicanists - so that they can
"explain" whatever they don't like. Happily, the investigating
authorities in the case of Samantha Runnion were not
pelicanists.


For a sky clear of pelicans,

Jerry Clark








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   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >>Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >The bottom line question to the skepti bunkers: Is witness
 >testimony to be considered reliable whether it involves an
 >abduction of a little girl or UFO related? Remember what ever
 >criteria of reliability for witness testimony can also be
 >applied to UFO witnesses as well.

Morning Robert, Jerry, List:

Eyewitness testimony is what eyewitness testimony is: sometimes
it's accurate and sometimes it's not. In this case, we can only
hope that it's accurate and that a dangerous situation has been
ended. This is an interesting, and seemingly powerful anecdote,
but an anecdote is only what an anecdote is.


Clear skies,

Bob Young


"You are an intriguing species... an interesting mix... You're
capable of such wonderful dreams... and such horrible
nightmares."  --   From Carl Sagan's "Contact"








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   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:10:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >>>Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Eyewitness testimony is what eyewitness testimony is: sometimes
 >it's accurate and sometimes it's not. In this case, we can only
 >hope that it's accurate and that a dangerous situation has been
 >ended. This is an interesting, and seemingly powerful anecdote,
 >but an anecdote is only what an anecdote is.

Exactly the same can be said, of course, for the anecdotes about
unreliable eyewitness testimony with which critics of anomalous
claims have regaled us for years.

For a scholarly study of eyewitness testimony in cases of
anomalous experience, there is David Hufford's classic work,
which is harsh, specific, and empirical in its criticisms of
sloppy claims, as often as not buttressed by unexamined cultural
prejudices, of eyewitness unreliability. This is an area in
which debunkers as much as proponents need to be far more
careful than they have been in the past. The Runnion case should
serve as yet another cautionary tale to all who would dismiss
"anecdotal testimony" as inherently worthless.


Clearer skies,

Jerry Clark








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:00:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:11:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >familiar.  Some excerpts:

 >STANTON, Calif., July 20 -- The observations of a 5- year-old
 >girl, the only witness in the abduction of Samantha Runnion,
 >have emerged as critical in the investigation that led to the
 >arrest of Alejandro Avila in the kidnapping and murder case.

 >The girl, Sara Ahn, who was playing with Samantha near their
 >home when a man drove up and snatched her, gave investigators
 >precise details about the man's appearance, accent and car, the
 >police said here this morning.

 >"The picture she gave was very similar to him," says Jim
 >Amormino, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff-Coroner
 >Department. "The color of the car was right on, the chrome
 >wheels were right on, the accent was right on. We're talking
 >about a 5-year-old little girl."

 >A widely circulated composite drawing was based entirely on
 >Sarah's recollection and proved invaluable, the police said.
 >Sheriff Michael S. Carona said that Sarah might be used to
 >review a lineup, and that she would probably have to testify at
 >trial.....

 >[Police] impounded three car to which [Avila] had access... One
 >of the vehicles closely matched the description given by Sarah.

 >The entire article can be read at

 >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/21/national/21ABDU.html

 >Jerry Clark

Jerry,

A related issue that I think is relevant is this: Highly
stressful situations apparently cause a person to have
heightened awareness and recall, especially of traumatic events,
memories which can last a lifetime. I base this on my past
exposure to the psychology literature as an editor, casual
personal inquiries, and family accounts of combat experiences.
And as I document thoroughly in The UFO Evidence, Volume II
(which very few people are buying, unfortunately), UFO witnesses
who have had frightening close encounters retain vivid memories
of them for many years.

  - Dick








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   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:56:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:13:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:37:32 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:31:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Jerry,

 >>A suspect was located who had been seen in the neighborhood and
 >>who matched the description given by the little girl. A human
 >>being was arrested and is now is custody. As near as I can tell
 >>from the newspaper, the witness didn't report that he passed
 >>through any walls, or leave in a flying saucer, or that sort of
 >>thing.

 >You're grasping at straws. Not for the first time.

 >Eyewitness testimony, pelicanist cliche and stereotype
 >notwithstanding, sometimes can be highly accurate indeed. I know
 >that pains you to hear, but accounts like this one are a
 >cautionary tale to those who would reinvent witness testimony -
 >after all, eyewitness testimony can be discarded without a
 >second thought, according to pelicanists - so that they can
 >"explain" whatever they don't like. Happily, the investigating
 >authorities in the case of Samantha Runnion were not
 >pelicanists.


Not only was the girl's story credible, but the details were
confirmed by the police when they investigated it. The point is
that testimony must be backed up by physical evidence, or at the
very least be confirmed by independent witnesses if it is to be
seriously considered as describing real events. Also if
eyewitness testimony was always as good as that given by the
little girl, such an incident would hardly make news.

John Harney








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   Jul > Jul 24

              Argentina: UFO Organization Rep Visits 25 de Mayo

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:58:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:58:14 -0400
Subject: Argentina: UFO Organization Rep Visits 25 de Mayo


SOURCE: Diario La Ma=F1ana (Argentina)
DATE: July 21, 2002

REPRESENTATIVE OF FEDERACION ARGENTINA DE UFOLOGIA (FAO) VISITS
25 DE MAYO

The sighting of a powerful light over an abandoned house in a
field of the town of Gobernador Ugarte, similar to an
unidentified flying object (UFO), has prompted Luis Burgos, a
representative of the Argentine Ufology Federation, to visit 25
de Mayo today, possibly at noon, for a detailed study of the
light seen by residents and policemen from Ugarte. He will even
make a copy of the images filmed by a local rancher, according
to a spokesman for the local cable channel.

On July 15 and last Wednesday, residents and policemen of Ugarte
claimed having seen something strange that irradiated a powerful
white light from its lower section, making it impossible to see
what was above the light source. The strange light was seen by
Manuel Gonz=E1lez, Jos=E9 Benavides and his wife Rosa Guti=E9rrez and
subsequently reported to the police in order that agents of law
enforcement, among them senior officer Rafael Aragones, could
witness the strange event.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales, IHU
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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   Jul > Jul 24

              Argentina: Residents of Formosa Claim Having Seen

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:46:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:00:46 -0400
Subject: Argentina: Residents of Formosa Claim Having Seen



SOURCE: El Comercial (www.elcomercial.com.ar)
DATE: July 21, 2002

RESIDENTS OF FORMOSA CLAIM HAVING SEEN "LIGHT"

[note: first paragraph is missing]

Finally, Luis Fernandez retold the story of something that had
captured his attention. In those locations, late at night, "I
saw lights on the horizon in the places where the mutilations
occurred. The light looks like a large flashlight that points
down from above. We thought they were helicopters belonging to
some agency touring the area. We went to look and couldn't hear
or find anything. The lights look like someone's lighting
something below from above, like a spotlight with an intense
white light.

"That always happens around these parts., but we pay it no mind,
otherwise one runs the risk of being called fanciful or a liar.
We pay it no mind. But we will try to find what is really
happening in those places. Some ten boys survey and comb the
area with me. Someday we'll find something," he said.

We checked with one of the persons who cross the area on a
regular basis and they corroborated Fernandez's testimony. "It's
true. We always see things like immense flashlights in this area
which point downward from above, as though looking for
something, but we never discuss is for fear of being taken for
madmen or liars. This has to happen to you to understand it.
Like my  compadre, who would always laugh when I told him that
at the edge of the Salado Creek certain shining things would
appear out of the sky, turning the night into day. We went
fishing one night and what he didn't believe in unexpectedly
happned. The light appeared above and lit up the area like
daylight. We told [others] what had happened but no one believed
us. Therefore it's not worth retelling it."

We also spoke to some residents at the "Feklo" store who were
talking excitedly about the "burned cows". They told us: "It's
true, from here we saw giant lights land in the area several
times. Then they rise quickly to become lost in swift movement.
At high speed. No one believes us, but its true. It doesn't
happen very often, but it happens after a rain shower or storm,
and on cold nights, and always in the area where Don Luis found
his dead animal.s Maybe someday someone will be able to take a
photo [of them] or see what they really are. They aren't
helicopters or anything we know. Of one thing we're sure--Luis
Fernandez won't leave them alone. He'll watch them night and day
until he has the chance to see what's happening to his cows."

=====================================
Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi








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             Argentina: Commotion Over UFO Sighting in Southern

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:10:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:01:55 -0400
Subject: Argentina: Commotion Over UFO Sighting in Southern


SOURCE: El Diario de la Republica
DATE: July 23, 2002

COMMOTION OVER UFO SIGHTING IN SOUTHERN CORDOBA

SAN LUIS.-  Public opinion across the country was startled
yesterday following news of a UFO sighting in southern Cordoba
on Sunday night.

When consulted by El Diario de la Republica, journalist Jorge
Almir=F3n of the El Puntal newspaper of Rio Cuarto, who covered
the event, confirmed that at least 20 police officers from that
Cordoban region saw the strange craft.

One of the officers had the most significant experience, since
the squad car in which he traveled and approached the strange
object ceased operating as the object drew closer, and the same
happened to his cellphone and the police radio. Once the craft
moved away,the equipment began operating once more, even some
which had been broken.

This policeman was some 10 meters from the craft and said that
it had the shape of a triangle measuring approximately 200
meters along the side, with countless portholes through which a
light similar to that of spotlights emerged, lighting the entire
area. Behind the illuminated spaces, the police officer could
see shadows, but which were not clearly visible. Yesterday he
told the media that he was stunned by the experience.

Journalist Almir=F3n said that the Cordoba Chief of Police
inspected the area yesterday with the purpose of seeing if any
physical evidence of the passing of the strange ship could be
found. As of yesterday, it was not known if someone had managed
to photograph or film the apparition.

Almir=F3n recalled that 20 days ago, the Cordoban police saw
another very strange, large light in the same area.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi








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   Jul > Jul 24

                        Argentina: UFOs in Chacabuco?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:31:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:08:20 -0400
Subject: Argentina: UFOs in Chacabuco?


SOURCE: www.vivechacabuco.com
DATE: July 21, 2002

**Strange lights seen in the sky**

UFOs OVER CHACABUCO?

Two sightings in less than a week lead us to wonder about the
certain possibility that we are being visited by aliens.

The first of these cases occurred when a driver was taking three
girls back to their homes on Sunday morning.

According to the vehicle's 4 occupants, in the early morning
hours of Sunday and at the Terapia exit, in the vicinity of the
Garay extension, they saw a very powerul light that was not a
star and appeared to be hovering low over the local houses. The
light was motionless and changed colors from light blue to
green.

"When I stopped the car to see if I could hear something, I
couldn't start the engine again. So I got out [of the car],
fooled around with the engine a bit, and finally made it start.
The girls were scared and holding hands, but we went over to the
side of the road to get a better look. Before [getting there],
we could already see that it was closer to us. It was about the
size of the rising Moon, emitting flashes, and at a given moment
the entire edge of the light was covered by some sort of fog,
and I didn't like the matter at all," remarked the driver, who
also made the report to the authorities.  "When the light still
looked large in the sky, the police didn't even go out to look.
When we left the Sheriff's office it was still visible from the
downtown area, and I'm certain that more people saw it, because
it was clearly visible, and even though it was early in the
morning, there are always people on the street."

The 2nd sighting:

Residents of  25 de mayo street saw an object the day before
yesterday during dusk. It remained in the sky for a few minutes
before vanishing swiftly and mysteriously after having remained
motionless.

=====================================
Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:55:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:11:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:00:15 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >>Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >>"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >>relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >>eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >>the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >>familiar.  Some excerpts:

 >>STANTON, Calif., July 20 -- The observations of a 5- year-old
 >>girl, the only witness in the abduction of Samantha Runnion,
 >>have emerged as critical in the investigation that led to the
 >>arrest of Alejandro Avila in the kidnapping and murder case.

 >>The girl, Sara Ahn, who was playing with Samantha near their
 >>home when a man drove up and snatched her, gave investigators
 >>precise details about the man's appearance, accent and car, the
 >>police said here this morning.

 >>"The picture she gave was very similar to him," says Jim
 >>Amormino, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff-Coroner
 >>Department. "The color of the car was right on, the chrome
 >>wheels were right on, the accent was right on. We're talking
 >>about a 5-year-old little girl."

 >>A widely circulated composite drawing was based entirely on
 >>Sarah's recollection and proved invaluable, the police said.
 >>Sheriff Michael S. Carona said that Sarah might be used to
 >>review a lineup, and that she would probably have to testify at
 >>trial.....

 >>[Police] impounded three car to which [Avila] had access... One
 >>of the vehicles closely matched the description given by Sarah.

 >>The entire article can be read at

 >>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/21/national/21ABDU.html

 >A related issue that I think is relevant is this: Highly
 >stressful situations apparently cause a person to have
 >heightened awareness and recall, especially of traumatic events,
 >memories which can last a lifetime. I base this on my past
 >exposure to the psychology literature as an editor, casual
 >personal inquiries, and family accounts of combat experiences.
 >And as I document thoroughly in The UFO Evidence, Volume II
 >(which very few people are buying, unfortunately), UFO witnesses
 >who have had frightening close encounters retain vivid memories
 >of them for many years.


Hello Dick, Jerry, All,

Speaking from a witness/victim point of view, your statement is
correct. Having a close-up encounter with a UFO or its occupants
is something that gets _burned_ into memory. More than that, it
replays itself over and over in your head as if demanding an
answer. An explanation.

It is the nagging persistence of these memories that eventually
brings many UFO witnesses and abductees to researchers in the
first place. Once I learned the details of what was being
reported by those who claimed they were being abducted, (word
for word they were giving utterance to things that had happened
to me and that I had kept to myself for years,) I contacted a
shrink and then Budd Hopkins. In that order.

Yes, witness testimony can be unreliable (depending on the
witness.) But that only means that the tedious work of checking
reports out one by one must be carried out carefully.

It never pays to throw the baby out with the bath water. Each
report needs to be examined individually before it can be
accepted or dismissed. Few on the skeptical side are ever
willing to put in the necessary labor. Because it simply cannot
be... they summarily dismiss all reports as being unreliable.
That's wrong.

The Runnion case _is_ a terrific learning tool nonetheless.


John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:15:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:12:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:56:58 +0100

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:37:32 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:31:28 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


John,

 >Not only was the girl's story credible, but the details were
 >confirmed by the police when they investigated it. The point is
 >that testimony must be backed up by physical evidence, or at the
 >very least be confirmed by independent witnesses if it is to be
 >seriously considered as describing real events. Also if
 >eyewitness testimony was always as good as that given by the
 >little girl, such an incident would hardly make news.

I think you've missed the point.

What was remarkable was not that the eyewitness testimony was
accurate. That wasn't news, since such testimony, though
imperfect, is accurate often enough to be used to solve a wide
range of crimes even in the absence of direct physical evidence.
No story there. What got all the attention was the fact that the
accurate eyewitness testimony came from a five-year-old girl.

It underscores the point that even small children are able to
witness things accurately and to report them accordingly. The
moral of the story is that those in a rush to dismiss eyewitness
or "anecdotal" testimony as inherently worthless should slow
down, maybe even come to a full stop, and take a closer, more
measured look at what's really happening out there. It's not so
simple as the pelicanist cliches and stereotypes would have it.


Jerry Clark








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                    Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:42:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:14:54 -0400
Subject: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment


Hello All,

After a little more investigation on the searchlights of the
time (Feb. 1942) I believe the searchlightsused were 60-inch
(G.E) model 1941 Control Station and Power Plant with 1=BC=BAbeam
divergence. In addition, and most importantly, they were
equipped with SCR-268 Radar searchlight directors which found
and tracked aerial targets by means of a radio echo. (Radar). It
determined the azimuth, angular elevation and altitude of of the
target and it transmits this information to the searchlight or a
gun director. It was designed to search for aerial targets as
far away as 40,000 yards. It supplied a continuous flow of data
which located aircraft positively.

Since the first successful SCR-268 was built by the Signal Corps
in 1937, and given the top priority the airplane manufacturing
plants in the L.A. area garnered, (after the attack on Pearl
Harbor) I think it's safe to assume that the SCR-268 directed
searchlights were in place during the early morning hours of
February 25, 1942, nonetheless, I am awaiting confirmation of
these facts. Bare in mind, that this new technology (radar) was
Top Secret at the time!

So, aside from eye witness accounts of UFOs (verbatim) as well
as the infamous picture, it appears there is also radar
confirmation via the searchlights themselves. In addition, with
this ability to lock on directly to the target(s) it becomes
increasingly difficult to believe that the object did not suffer
any direct hits. This of course brings up another question, what
in 1942 could take 'direct hits' from 3 guns and still fly?

For the record, the U.S barrage balloons used at the time,
which is the closest identifiable object that the object in
the picture resembles, (that is they're both elliptical in
shape,) was rounded in the front, and one could clearly see the
wings and tail of the balloon. In manipulating the image from
the original negative, e.g., adjusting brightness, contrast,
gamma settings etc., and accounting for the artillery bursts,
the shape in the image seems to be a perfect ellipses, clearly
with no wings or tail etc.


Regards,

Frank Warren








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:6:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:32:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:41:08 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >>Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Today's New York Times carries a story under the head-line
 >>"Girl's Role as Witness to Abduction Called Crucial." Its
 >>relevance to issues of UFO-reporting (as well as other
 >>eyewitness testimony) is clear and quite interesting, shattering
 >>the cliches and stereotypes with which we have all become
 >>familiar.  Some excerpts:

 >>STANTON, Calif., July 20 -- The observations of a 5- year-old
 >>girl, the only witness in the abduction of Samantha Runnion,
 >>have emerged as critical in the investigation that led to the
 >>arrest of Alejandro Avila in the kidnapping and murder case.

 ><snip>

 >When I was about 27 years old, I was the general manager of a
 >theatre troupe based out of Toronto (Famous People Players) and
 >one afternoon I was sitting in my office, on the phone, when I
 >happened to glance out the window. I saw a body lying on the
 >pavement in front of a car (as though the person had just been
 >hit by a car) and, to my utter horror a man jumped out of the
 >car, picked up the body, put it in the trunk of the car and sped
 >off.

<snip>

 >So, you can see something shocking and it can have a mundane
 >explanation. But that doesn't mean the witness described exactly
 >what happened.


The question arises here, did you describe what you saw
accurately?  Not what interpretation was placed on the event?
The actual godlike view of the reality of the situation is
another thing altogether.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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               Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:33:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:35:31 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in



 >>CROP WATCH 2002

 >>MORE 'RANDOMLY DOWNED AREAS' IN ONTARIO

 ><snip>

 >>As at Erin and Exeter, the newest reports are all in wheat,
 >>ranging from small up to approximately 'two football fields' in
 >>size (600 feet or so, as at Erin) featuring random or quasi-
 >>geometric appearing 'maze-like' and 'rough circular, squarish,
 >>triangular and arrowhead shapes', 'V' and 'cross-hatch' crop lay
 >>patterns (similar to those found at Beaumont, Alberta in 2000)
 >>and bent / swollen / stretched nodes. In some areas the crop is
 >>very flat to the ground.

 >Good Morning All -

 >I have often wondered when a football field became a standard of
 >measure but here it's just confusing. My first thought, from an
 >American perspective, was that the translation from "two
 >football fields" to "600" feet was wrong, because two football
 >fields would be 600 yards or 1800 feet. My second thought was
 >maybe it is the European or worldwide definition of football
 >meaning soccer which would change the size. My third thought was
 >this was Canada which has an "American"-style of football but
 >the field is longer than for the game played in the United
 >States so that changes the dimensions once again.

 >So now I have no idea what two football fields means in terms of
 >the actual size, only that it was large. What I see here is that
 >a term that means one thing to me as an American means something
 >else to our colleagues in other parts of the world and something
 >else again to our friends in Canada... so, let's drop the use of
 >football field as a term of measurement and use something clever
 >like feet, yards, meters or even rods and leagues. At least we
 >all understand what they mean.


I think Kevin has scored a Touchdown with this message. The use
of "football field" as a measure is a true Fumble, at least as I read
the above Clipping. To ensure the Safety of future communications
(besides those that are Intercepted by Echelon) I vote we Punt.

(Anyone else want to Tackle this thread?)

==JJS==








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                  Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:42:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:37:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Goldstein


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:20:47 EDT
 >Subject: Washington Post UFO Story
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >List, All -

 >For those interested in the Washington Post story about UFOs, see:

 >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

 >The article seemed fair and balanced to me and the reporter seemed to
 >have done a good job in laying out the facts. This is the sort of thing
 >we need to see.

 >KRandle

Hi Kevin,

I heartily agree. Plus, the reporter stated a few details I had
not seen (or my foggy mind forgot) during past years. I wonder
who at the Post had the idea to write a story for the 50th
anniversary? I also wonder if the reporter was asked by the
researchers in the story to write further articles or a series?
If written with this objectivity it would go a long way to
getting a significant section of the readers (public,
government. military) calling for a new examination of the UFO
situation. I'll be interested to see what responses regarding
this article appear in the paper. We should contact the Post,
support their effort, and ask them to cover more of the subject.

It is also interesting that getting the Post to write about UFOs
has been recently discussed here on Updates. Fortunately my
satirical side did not respond to Eleanor White when she was
asking about how to up the ante to get the paper to write. I was
going to direct her to the archives posts from the woman who was
"dieting for disclosure" before Eleanor joined the list.

As a matter of fact, maybe going on a water only fast by Steven
Greer, the disclosure dieter, all of CSETI, and Stephen Bassett
would help with their causes. They could do it in front of the
Capitol and maybe the government would grant disclosure when
they are one breath from death. That may be the only way they
will get a congressional hearing if the Post story does not
generate enough heat. Let's try to get the paper to write
further and keep the above from happening.

Josh











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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:54:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:39:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:56:58 +0100

 >Not only was the girl's story credible, but the details were
 >confirmed by the police when they investigated it. The point is
 >that testimony must be backed up by physical evidence, or at
 >the very least be confirmed by independent witnesses if it is
 >to be seriously considered as describing real events.

I hate to come over all argumentative here, but this really is
ridiculous.

By this logic, no-one on earth could ever be sure of anything
unless it was either backed up by physical evidence or confirmed
by independent witnesses, not even about something as trivial as
whether they'd had breakfast that morning.  No-one would ever
dream of trying to apply this set of criteria in practice
because it's just impossible.

The difficulty with eye witness testimony is that the brain is
highly selective in what it encodes in memory, and what the
brain selects for encoding is not necessarily what is of
interest to third parties such as law enforcement officers,
attorneys and other investigative personnel.  These details are
regarded by the brain as irrelevant, which is why they are left
unencoded.  As a result they're subject to substitution and
switching, which is the sort of thing that happens in a police
line-up.

Let's not forget that research into eye witness testimony takes
place within a highly politicized social context.  Elizabeth
Loftus, for example, on whose research much of the current
cultural interpretation of eye witness testimony is based, is
also a highly paid expert witness who obviously has an interest
in maximizing the extent to which her research is seen as
undermining the credibility of an eye witness.


 >Also if
 >eyewitness testimony was always as good as that given by the
 >little girl, such an incident would hardly make news.

The fact that it makes news probably says more about the
cultural expectations surrounding eye witness testimony than
about its actual reliability.  It isn't so much that eye witness
memory is unreliable - in fact it plainly can't be, for obvious
evolutionary reasons - it's just that we've become accustomed to
assuming it is, especially from children.

Cathy








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/19/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:01:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:50:31 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/19/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 65
July 19, 2002


**      HOUSE REPORT ON 2003 INTEL BILL FILED
**      REPORT ON INTELLIGENCE AND SEPTEMBER 11
**      STATE DEPT COMMENTS ON DETENTION OF REPORTER


HOUSE REPORT ON 2003 INTEL BILL FILED

The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI)
this week filed its report on the Intelligence Authorization Act
for 2003.

As usual, the report marks no bold new departures but contains
numerous legislative gestures that are of interest and possible
importance for intelligence policy.

The House bill would add a new exemption from search, review and
disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act for "operational
files" of the National Reconnaissance Office.  A similar
exemption for CIA operational files was enacted in 1984.  But a
proposed exemption for operational files of the Defense
Intelligence Agency was abandoned two years ago when it met with
public controversy.

In another FOIA-related provision, the Committee moved to
prohibit intelligence agencies from complying with FOIA requests
from foreign governments or their representatives.

"CIA estimates that requests from foreign governments and
foreign nationals comprise approximately 10 percent of the FOIA
requests received annually," the Committee stated.  Intelligence
agencies are "required by law to process these requests without
regard to the nationality of the individual making the
request....  This [new provision] will prevent the diversion of
the Intelligence Community's limited declassification resources
for this purpose."

The Committee welcomed increased spending for intelligence but
noted that the new money will tend to reinforce the existing,
inadequate intelligence structure:

"[T]hese investments are being made into an organizational
framework that gives little indication of being prepared to
produce intelligence capabilities that can address the national
security demands of the future."

Unwilling or unable to tackle the challenge of intelligence
reform on its own, the Committee cast a plaintive look to the
executive branch review of intelligence that was mandated by
National Security Presidential Directive 5.

"The Committee implores the President, in particular, to receive
the findings from the NSPD-5 review and act upon them with
expediency." But the findings of that 2001 review, which
reportedly called for greater DCI authority over defense
intelligence agencies, are deemed unlikely to be adopted.

"Perhaps the most disturbing budgetary trend in the United
States Intelligence Community is its increasing reliance on
supplemental appropriations," the Committee observed, referring
to the billions of dollars that have been added for intelligence
outside of the normal budget appropriations process in the past
year alone.

This "is bad budget practice and bad government."

The Committee report also addresses the state of HUMINT, NSA
SIGINT architecture, the familiar lack of foreign language
expertise, and the defects of intelligence analysis.

The report also introduces a new acronym: GWOT, for Global War
on Terrorism.

See the HPSCI report on intelligence authorization for FY 2003,
H.Rpt. 107-592, here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_rpt/hrpt107-592.html


REPORT ON INTELLIGENCE AND SEPTEMBER 11

There is a grand tradition of congressional publications on
intelligence, from the Church Committee reports of 1975-76 to
the 1996 HPSCI report "IC21: Intelligence Community in the 21st
Century," that are so rich in content and analytical insight
that they serve as educational resources long after their pages
have yellowed and their bindings cracked.

Unfortunately, the new HPSCI subcommittee report on U.S.
intelligence deficiencies related to the September 11 attacks is
not in the same category, judging from the unclassified summary
of the report that was released this week.  It provides no new
information of significance and its recommendations are banal
and poorly written.

Thus, "The summary finding regarding CIA is that CIA needs to
institutionalize its sharp reorientation toward going on the
offensive against terrorism" (italicized in the original).

Perhaps the investigation's most important conclusion was
offered by Rep. Saxby Chambliss at a July 17 press briefing:
  "This [i.e. September 11] was such a closely held,
compartmentalized act of devastation that was carried out by the
terrorist community [sic] that we don't know of any way it could
have been prevented."

Yet that key finding was not even included in the report's
summary, intelligence historian John Prados pointed out.

To add insult, the House Committee posted the 14 page
unclassified summary of the report on its web site as an
absurdly massive 1.3 Megabyte PDF file.

A more suitably modest 28 kilobyte HTML version of the document
is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_rpt/hpsci_ths0702.html


STATE DEPT COMMENTS ON DETENTION OF REPORTER

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher yesterday responded
to further questions about last week's brief detention of
National Review reporter Joel Mowbray after he quoted a
classified document at a State Department press briefing last
week.

"Every reporter in this room at one time or another has written
a story purportedly based on classified documents," Mr. Boucher
said.

"But nobody has ever said in here on-camera, on-the-record until
last week, 'I have it -- I have a classified cable with me right
now, right here,' and gotten up to leave the building. What the
guards did [in detaining Mowbray] was entirely appropriate."
  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/07/dos071802.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:38:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:01:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:40:23 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:22:49 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>Just to prove that psychosocial pelicans are capable of changing
 >>their mind: having started the discussion on this case without
 >>intending to question the photographs, only the validity of its
 >>"multi-witness" status, the more I learn about it the more the
 >>photographs themselves raise serious questions about its
 >>validity.

 >Ah, well, so much for peace, love, and understanding, or the
 >capacity of the leopard of psychosocial ufology to change its
 >spots.

 >There may be grounds for "serious questions about [the Trindade
 >case's] validity," but you have yet to raise them. There are
 >certainly questions -- there usually are; otherwise, it wouldn't
 >be the UFO mystery, would it? --

Sorry, Jerry, but I'm afraid that there is no room for questions
- serious or otherwise - about the Trindade case. Richard Hall
has spoken:

"There is absolutely no doubt whatoever about the authenticity
of these photos. It boggles the mind that you should make such a
statement."

And later:

"What you should have said here is that YOU don't know enough
about the case to make a definitive judgement. We do."

Does the "we" include you, Jerry?

 >For all the verbiage you have thrown at it, your argument has
 >gotten nowhere. First, you started out wanting us to believe no
 >other witnesses exist. When statements from Brazilian Navy
 >investigators stating the contrary flatly were brought into the
 >discussion, you switched the ground of the argument to something
 >else, namely the precise _number_ of witnesses. We can agree on
 >this much -- that we don't know the exact number -- but the
 >statements made by Navy investigators clearly imply a fair
 >number.

You keep going on about "the precise number of witnesses", as
though you were saying that there were 48, and I were
pedantically claiming that there were only 46. The difference
between three - identified and authenticated - and 48 is more
than a minor correction; it alters the whole nature of the case.

I notice that, typically, you avoid the awkward question: where
did you get the figure 48 from, and why does it only appear in
photographic captions in your encyclopedias rather than in the
text, where one might expect a reference to the source?

Will you continue to use this figure if future editions of the
encyclopedia, or anything else you may write about the case?

 >Let me repeat: Resolution of that issue is not possible without
 >access to Brazilian Navy records of the investigation. That's
 >something we'd all like to have. I hope our Brazilian colleagues
 >can help us here.

We are unlikely to get these records. And if we did, would you
regard them as any more authoritative than US military records
about UFO cases?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:03:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Any witness to anything _except_ UFO or UFO related abduction is
 >considered to be dependable, reliable, and good. However if the
 >same witness claimed to have also seen a UFO skeptics would
 >instantly tell us about the unreliability of witness, why it is
 >a hoax, misidentification of natural phenomena and so on and
 >should be disregarded for various asundry reasons.

If you had actually read the report of the case - easily
available on the Internet even five thosand miles away in
Britain - you will have seen that the police did not rely solely
on the eyewitness evidence  of the little girl. This was
valuable, but it served to lead them to DNA evidence which
appears to be the basis of their case.

No UFO case has evidence one hundredth as convincing as forensic
DNA evidence.

 >Police and other law enforcement don't seem to mind using, and
 >relying upon witness testimony. The skeptibunkers will probably
 >have an elaborate tale about why this is all different then the
 >sighting of a UFO.

Yes, we're skeptibunkers, so you don't have to bother putting a
case up against us. Just using the word as a mantra is,
apparently, enough to demolish the critic's case. How
convenient.

 >Gee whiz the drawing that was used to finger the dude came from
 >the little girl.

No it wasn't. The drawing was an important contributory factor,
but it was the forensic evidence which was used "to finger the
dude".

Read the full story on the Internet, and you'll see this has
little relevance to UFO cases. It's just Jerry Clark "clutching
at straws", to use one of his favorite phrases.

 >The bottom line question to the skepti bunkers: Is witness
 >testimony to be considered reliable whether it involves an
 >abduction of a little girl or UFO related? Remember what ever
 >criteria of reliability for witness testimony can also be
 >applied to UFO witnesses as well.

Witness testimony is to be considered reliable when it is backed
up by solid evidence, as it appears to have been in this case,
thanks to good police work.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:19:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:04:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -050

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Eyewitness testimony is what eyewitness testimony is: sometimes
 >>it's accurate and sometimes it's not. In this case, we can only
 >>hope that it's accurate and that a dangerous situation has been
 >>ended. This is an interesting, and seemingly powerful anecdote,
 >>but an anecdote is only what an anecdote is.

 >Exactly the same can be said, of course, for the anecdotes about
 >unreliable eyewitness testimony with which critics of anomalous
 >claims have regaled us for years.

 >For a scholarly study of eyewitness testimony in cases of
 >anomalous experience, there is David Hufford's classic work,
 >which is harsh, specific, and empirical in its criticisms of
 >sloppy claims, as often as not buttressed by unexamined cultural
 >prejudices, of eyewitness unreliability. This is an area in
 >which debunkers as much as proponents need to be far more
 >careful than they have been in the past. The Runnion case should
 >serve as yet another cautionary tale to all who would dismiss
 >"anecdotal testimony" as inherently worthless.

I don't really understand why Jerome Clark is bringing David
Hufford in here, although I suppose it's inevitable that he
would. After all, the great man is wheeled in as an authority
figure to bolster any claim that Jerry seems to be making.

Let's get a few things clear about this case. The police
arrested and charged the suspect only after the initial
identification had been confirmed by DNA evidence which linked
the suspect to the murdered girl. Little Sarah's eyewitness
evidence was important in leading police to the suspect, but on
its own would not have been enough to warrant an arrest.

In the course of the Satanic abuse panic (which has been covered
in a number of article in Magonia) children have given vivid
eyewitness accounts of being sexually abused in spaceships,
seeing their friends being fed to sharks in swimming pools, and
other absurd and outrageous claims. Of course, when these
allegations have been investigated, not a shred of evidence has
been found for them. Unfortunately, this has not prevented some
people being imprisoned on these uncorroborated claims.

It's good that this little girl was able to give a good
description of her friend's alleged attacker and the police were
able to find further evidence which corroborated her story. But
such definitive scientific corroboration seems to be missing in
UFO reports.

Incidently, isn't it just a couple of days ago that Jerry was
criticising me for making analogies between the evidence
involved in UFO cases and the sort of forensic evidence needed
in court case?

Somehow the words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/23/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:30:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:07:01 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/23/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 66
July 23, 2002


**      2002 INTEL BUDGET TOTAL MAY YET BE DISCLOSED
**      RUMSFELD ON LEAKS
**      STATE DEPT HISTORICAL ADVISORY COMM MINUTES RELEASED
**      NEW DOCUMENT RELEASES FROM UK PRO, NARA


2002 INTEL BUDGET TOTAL MAY YET BE DISCLOSED

The Director of Central Intelligence (DCI) will give
"significant consideration" to declassifying the total
intelligence budget for 2002, according to a Justice Department
memorandum submitted in federal court.

Disclosure of the 2002 intelligence budget total is being sought
in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by the
Federation of American Scientists (FAS).

The DCI is currently too busy with the war on terrorism to make
an immediate determination on the subject, Justice lawyers said
in a status report on the lawsuit.

But "when senior CIA officials are able to focus on this issue,
they will give significant consideration to its resolution."

"In the three past years when plaintiff [FAS] requested release
of similar information, the Agency's decision to withhold or
disclose the aggregate intelligence budget number was carefully
made on a year-by-year basis.  In two of those prior years the
DCI decided, in his discretion, to release the aggregate budget
figure.  This decision has taken into account a number of
circumstances, including changes to the intelligence budget and
changes in the world situation.  It will be no easier this
time," the Justice lawyers wrote.

See their July 17 Defendant's Status Report here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/cia071702.html

A separate FAS lawsuit, challenging the continued classification
of the 1947 and 1948 intelligence budget totals, is still
pending.


RUMSFELD ON LEAKS

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday explained his
decision to conduct an investigation into the leak of classified
information concerning Pentagon war plans for an attack on Iraq.
  That information was reported in the New York Times on July 5.

"I am old-fashioned," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon press briefing
yesterday.  "I think that anyone who has a position where they
touch a war plan has an obligation to not leak it to the press
or anybody else, because it kills people. People's lives will be
lost."

"If people start treating war plans like they're paper airplanes
and they can fly them around this building and throw them to
anybody who wants them, I think it's outrageous!  It's
inexcusable, and they ought to be in jail."

See Rumsfeld's July 22 remarks here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/07/dod072202.html


STATE DEPT HISTORICAL ADVISORY COMM MINUTES RELEASED

The State Department's Historical Advisory Committee yesterday
approved the release of the meeting minutes from its March 2002
meeting.  The minutes generally encompass current issues in
declassification of State Department records, access to Nixon
tapes and Kissinger telcons, and CIA declassification activities
(or lack thereof) in support of the Foreign Relations of the
United States series.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/hac0302.html


NEW DOCUMENT RELEASES FROM UK PRO, NARA

The latest July 2002 releases from the UK Public Record Office
are itemized here:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/july2002/list.htm

The release of an additional 150 pages of Presidential records
from Ronald Reagan's Presidency and 40 pages of Vice
Presidential records from George H. W. Bush's Vice Presidency
was announced by the National Archives on July 19.

The release was approved when, "in accordance with the
procedures established by Executive Order 13233, representatives
of former President Reagan, former Vice President George H. W.
Bush, and President George W. Bush... decided not to assert any
constitutionally based privilege with respect to these records."
See:

http://www.archives.gov/media_desk/press_releases/nr02-65.html

A lawsuit is pending that challenges the legitimacy of Executive
Order 13233, which imposed new obstacles to the release of
presidential records from past administrations.


****************************** Secrecy News is written by Steven
Aftergood and published by the Federation of American
Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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               Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 02:25:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:08:36 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: CCCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in Ontario
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Good Morning All -

 >I have often wondered when a football field became a standard of
 >measure but here it's just confusing. My first thought, from an
 >American perspective, was that the translation from "two
 >football fields" to "600" feet was wrong, because two football
 >fields would be 600 yards or 1800 feet. My second thought was
 >maybe it is the European or worldwide definition of football
 >meaning soccer which would change the size. My third thought was
 >this was Canada which has an "American"-style of football but
 >the field is longer than for the game played in the United
 >States so that changes the dimensions once again.

 >So now I have no idea what two football fields means in terms of
 >the actual size, only that it was large. What I see here is that
 >a term that means one thing to me as an American means something
 >else to our colleagues in other parts of the world and something
 >else again to our friends in Canada... so, let's drop the use of
 >football field as a term of measurement and use something clever
 >like feet, yards, meters or even rods and leagues. At least we
 >all understand what they mean.

Hi Kevin and all,

I used the term 'two football fields' as a general frame of
reference only, to give a basic visual idea of the estimated
size as this was a preliminary report only. In finished reports
of course, for the annual summaries or on the web site, sizes
and measurements are always given in both feet and metres, for
survey diagrams, etc.

Re it being confusing, the American field is 100 yards long
(goal line to goal line) or 300 feet. So two fields together
would be about 200 yards or 600 feet approximately. I think you
were thinking 300 yards long instead of 300 feet?

In Canada, the field is 110 yards long or 330 feet or 100 meters
approximately (one yard being about 0.91 metres).

Hope this clarifies!

Paul








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 01:42:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:10:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:06:18 -0500
 >>>Subject: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 ><snip>

 >>The bottom line question to the skepti bunkers: Is witness
 >>testimony to be considered reliable whether it involves an
 >>abduction of a little girl or UFO related? Remember what ever
 >>criteria of reliability for witness testimony can also be
 >>applied to UFO witnesses as well.

 >Morning Robert, Jerry, List:

 >Eyewitness testimony is what eyewitness testimony is: sometimes
 >it's accurate and sometimes it's not. In this case, we can only
 >hope that it's accurate and that a dangerous situation has been
 >ended. This is an interesting, and seemingly powerful anecdote,
 >but an anecdote is only what an anecdote is.

Brad Sparks reminded me that he had posted an "analysis of IFO
cases in the Condon Report proving that eyewitness ovservations
(not their interpretations of observations) were 97%- 98%
accurate." The link is:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m11-030.shtml

and is entitled: Condon Report Proves Accuracy of Witnesses.

We still haven't heard from the skeptibunkers about why witness
testimony is to be considered totally unreliable when someone
mentions UFO, yet if its a kidnapping or something else these
same skeptibunkers never utter a peep.....


Cheers,

Robert








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                 Argentina: Large UFO Causes Ground Effects

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:21:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:12:53 -0400
Subject: Argentina: Large UFO Causes Ground Effects


SOURCE: Diario "El Tribuno" de Salta -Argentina
DATE: 21 de July de 2002

Sighting

**An alleged UFO causes consternation at Campamento Vespucio**
**Vespucio/ Phenomenon caused a commotion at oil settlement**

Large UFO Causes Ground Effects

Phone service throughout the region was interrupted and there
were failures in several pieces of machinery.

Cristina Carraz=E1n -- El Tribuno

An unidentified flying object (UFO) of large size and intense
luminosity was seen on Monday between 20:50 and 21:30 hrs. in
the town of Campamento Vespucio, seven kilometers west of
General Mosconi and approximately 350 km to the north of the
Saltan capital. The event caused a sensation in this community,
which not long ago was the hydrocarbon-producing capital of the
Argentinean northwest and which is half-empty after the
privatization of the state-owned Yacimientos Petrol=EDferos
Fiscales (YPF) oil company.

The presence of the object--visible to the unaided eye over the
forested tropical hills of the San Antonio Range, which acts as
the regions natural border, was of the size and shape of a
  rugby ball.

Residents of Vespucio took to the streets to look at the object,
which remained motionless for 40 minutes before vanishing
suddenly toward the west at "prodigious" speed, according to
witnesses. A housewife who chose to remain anonymous said "it
was oddly beautiful. The intensity of the light was enormous
although it produced no fear whatsoever."

The same woman added that "we were all marvelled at first but
got nervous when we realized that along with the phenomenon, the
phones stopped working and the electrical systems of several
cars were left for dead, making it impossible to start them or
turn on their lights."

Residents of the Tablillas area, some 3 km inside the canyon
where Campamento Vespucio is located and consequently closer to
the UFO, were not surprised by the event, since they said "we
are used to seeing this singular luminous events since 1999, and
the fact remains that whenever they appear, they cause failures
in motor and electrical systems."

Only a few families live in this place, all of them former
workers and employees of YPF who chose to remain in the area
after privatization, which can be reached along a tortuous dirt
road leading to the Pan American oil company operations. The
road also leads to onther gas and oil wells which currently
register no services whatsoever.

The Olima family is among the ones dwelling at Tabillas. Made up
by the couple and 13 children--eight of which live in their
parents' house and whose ages range between 10 and 24--were
privileged witnesses to the event.

Gabriel Olima, 22, a former engineering student who was unable
to continue his studies due to economic hardship and who now
works alongside his father in a workshop set up inside the house
and is also a beekeper, said "we've seen these UFOs many times
since 1999. People didn't believe us for fear or out of
skepticism, but the apparitions are so customary that we've been
able to determine that they're visible between July and August.
Not before, not after."

"On one occasion, two persons from a Buenos Aires TV Channel
came and we brought them over to film [the phenomenon]. They did
the work but for some reason never exhibited it publicly. While
filming, they seemed frightened and one of them told me that the
shining "thing" was nothing known, that it was "very strange".
They never came back."

On the other hand, Fabian Olima, 24, said that "this or these
objects seem to have a timetable, because they always become
visible between 20 and 21:00 hours. They're there, they stay for
40 minutes and then vanish at high speed."

Gabriel said that on one occasion, when "the thing" appeared
behind a distant hill no more than 4 km from his house, he
decided to have a closer look. "We wanted to see what it was,
what it was all about. We went out with my dad to reach the
other hill, running along some trails, but it suddenly built up
speed and vanished like a bullet."

"What's changed," Fabian stressed, "is the distance involved.
Before we would see it far away, but on Monday night it was
closer than ever."

"Maybe they're becoming less shy and will come closer a little
each day," joked other members of the Olima family.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2002 Scott Corrales, IHU
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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               Re: CCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:46:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:16:43 -0400
Subject: Re: CCRN News: More 'Randomly Downed Areas' in


Good Morning, All -

 >I have often wondered when a football field became a standard of
 >measure but here it's just confusing. My first thought, from an
 >American perspective, was that the translation from "two
 >football fields" to "600" feet was wrong, because two football
 >fields would be 600 yards or 1800 feet.

Just to show the level of confusion of this standard of measure
and before anyone points it out, yes, two football fields would
be 200 yards or 600 feet. I'm not sure how I came up with the
notion that two football fields would be 1800 feet. I certainly
fumbled the ball on this one.

However, I stand by the rest of the idea, which is, in our
global world here, just what kind of football field were we
talking about and what specific dimensions should we use.


KRandle








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                   Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:55:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:18:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Randle


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:42:33 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:20:47 EDT
 >>Subject: Washington Post UFO Story
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>List, All -

 >>For those interested in the Washington Post story about UFOs, see:

 >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

 >>The article seemed fair and balanced to me and the reporter seemed to
 >>have done a good job in laying out the facts. This is the sort of thing
 >>we need to see.

 >>KRandle

 >Hi Kevin,

 >I heartily agree. Plus, the reporter stated a few details I had
 >not seen (or my foggy mind forgot) during past years. I wonder
 >who at the Post had the idea to write a story for the 50th
 >anniversary? I also wonder if the reporter was asked by the
 >researchers in the story to write further articles or a series?

Good Morning, Josh, List, All -

The idea grew out of a story that appeared in the comics of the
Washington Post called Flashbacks which dealt with the sightings
and was inspired by my book "Invasion Washington" about the 1952
sightings. It was carried over three or four weekends and it was
then that someone noticed that the 50th anniversary was about to
hit... something that I hadn't even considered when I suggested
the book to my publisher.

For my part, as we talked about UFOs in general, I mentioned
over sightings that seemed to be as mysterious (Levelland, the
Lubbock Lights or rather the photographs, and yes, even Roswell)
but the reporter's interest was only in the Washington Nationals
because he was (a) in Washington, D.C. and (b) it was coming up
on the 50th.

Even with that, I was impressed with the tone of the article and
that the reporter told me up front what his plan was because
there was so much information available that he didn't really
know what the answer might be. He wasn't going to take sides,
just give us the facts.

KRandle










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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 30

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:59:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:38:02 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 30


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 30
July 23, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


ALIENS SEEN AT TWO TOWNS
IN ARGENTINA

       Two aliens have been sighted in Argentina, the
latest twist in the unprecedented UFO flap in that South
American country.
       The first sighting took place Wednesday, July 3,
2002, in Adela Maria, 90 kilometers (54 miles) from Rio
Cuarto in Cordoba province.
       That evening, Pedro and Estela Moine "decided to go
to the business district of the town," which has a
population of 7,000 and "is located in a predominantly
agricultural and livestock region."  Crossing the
railroad tracks, they entered "the barrio Norte
(neighborhood) as it is known to all residents of the
locality, and then crossed the old railroad yard through
pedestrian pathways that link both sections of Adela
Maria."
       "The time was nearly 9 p.m. when" Pedro and Estela
"went through the area, suddenly becoming aware of 'a
strange and incomprehensible conversation between many
voices.'"
       "Startled by this, they stopped walking.  They moved
a few meters more and heard 'voices' again, which sounded
like 'strange O words.'"
       "Pedro looked toward the (grain) silos and was able
to see 'something' he qualified as 'a humanoid' but
lacking upper and lower extremities (arms and legs--
J.T.)."
       "Despite the pleas of his wife Estela, Pedro ran
several meters toward a main alley, being able to make
out, 45 meters (150 feet) to the west and in profile, the
'entity' which, acting surprised, avoided an encounter
and moved again to the north."
       "However, what filled the witnesses with amazement
was that the creature did so 'as though flying or
floating' without touching the buildings as it passed."
       "Filled with excitement, Pedro and Estela ran after
it.  Then Pedro saw that 'the entity' appeared to be
'hiding' behind the control room of a truck scale.  Pedro
ran toward it and was again startled to see the
apparition rising like a plane taking off, flying at an
altitude of 5 meters (17 feet) and disappearing behind a
large metal shed."
       The alien "appeared to be a body covered from head
to toe in a kind of mantle, which he (Pedro) described as
'though it was a hat but covered by some kind of long
raincoat.'"
       On Sunday, July 14, 2002, Pedro and Estela Moine
were interviewed by a team of Argentinian ufologists,
which included Francisco Dominguez, Natalia Urista, Lucio
Fernandez and Mario Luis Bracamonte.
       The second alien encounter took place on Sunday,
July 14, 2002 in the city of La Pampa, in the barrio
Villa Elisa (neighborhood).
       "A young woman fainted yesterday (Monday, July 15,
2002) from nervous shock after having an alleged close
encounter with 'some sort of green dwarf' that appeared
before her at 11:30 p.m. two nights ago as she walked--
enveloped in darkness--along the Calle Misioneros
Salesianos (street) only meters away from the Calle Raul
B. Diaz (street) in barrio Villa Elisa."
       "According to La Pampa municipal police of the
Second District, "the protagonist's identity and that of
the three women who attended her until the ambulance
arrived, is not in our files.  'We do know that at 11:30
p.m. that night a request for help was received from the
corner of Raul B. Diaz and Salesianos, and a squad car
headed towards that location.'  When personnel (officers)
reached the scene, the women were not there; in any
event, the duty officer established that one of these
persons saw some sort of green dwarf that looked at her
pointedly."
       The newspaper El Diario de La Pampa "was able to
find out from medical sources that the woman was treated
by personnel from an EMS ambulance under the direction of
Dr. Brum, 'who revived the protagonist and helped her out
of her state of nervous shock.'"  (See El Diario de La
Pampa for July 16, 2002, "Woman sees green dwarf and
faints."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Gloria Coluchi
y Mario Luis Bracamonte para esas noticias.)


UFO SIGHTINGS REPORTED
ALL OVER ARGENTINA

       "In the past two weeks, 'strange lights' were seen
in various locales in the center of" Argentina's "Entre
Rios province.  Residents of Sola, Rosario del Tala and
Mansilla were witness to the low-altitude maneuvers of
objects they were unable to identify."
       "Last Saturday (July 6, 2002) a resident of Parana
filmed 15 lights which spun around in circles for 10
minutes.  His home video was seen by some news media as
proof of the strange phenomenon."
       "The strangest case involved police officers in two
squad cars who were at a truck stop at the crossroads of
Routes 39 and 6.  The officers, according to" the
newspaper Uno de Parana, "saw how a powerful light made
maneuvers in the night skies on Monday, July 1 (2002).
It approached the squad cars, producing 'sparks similar
to those of a photographer's flash'--a colorful spectacle
full of 'admirable' color bursts."
       "At a given moment, the light pulled back and the
vehicles stopped operating.  The engine wouldn't turn
over and the lights were off.  Half an hour later, when
the strange luminosity had vanished completely, the
police siren turned on 'all of a sudden' and the engines
responded to the ignition."
       "The five occupants from both Renault 19 vehicles,
one from Rosario del Tala and the other from the
Gobernador Sola Sheriff's Office could find no possible
explanation for what they saw.  When the object came
excessively close to their vehicles, the law enforcement
personnel reached for their sidearms, but it seems that
the strange light was not impressed, since it continued
to fly close to the squad cars, withdrawing in its own
good time."
       Elsewhere in Argentina, "residents of the 25 de Mayo
rural area and police personnel of the Gobernador Ugarte
cuartel (barracks) claim having seen a powerful white
light suspended in space for several minutes before
taking off swiftly toward the west."
       "Three townspeople and three officers of the
Gobernador Ugarte police witnessed something strange over
a farmhouse--something that irradiated a very powerful
white light from its lower section, making it difficult
to see what was above the light."
       "The strange light was seen by Jose Benavides and
his wife, Rosa Gutierrez, as well as by Manuel Gonzalez,
who decided to report the event to the police.  It was
there that only a few minutes later, the department's
squad car, driven by Senior Officer Rafael Aragones, who
was assisted by two other officers, visited the field and
attested to the truth of the call, since the strange
light was indeed there."
       "The field where the light was seen was located 7
kilometers (4 miles) from the city center (of Gobernador
Ugarte--J.T.) in 25 de Mayo."  (See the Argentinian
newspapers Paralelo of July 13, 2002, "UFOs on the prowl
in Entre Rios;" Diario Uno de Parana for July 10, 2002;
and La Manana for July 16, 2002, "Townspeople claim
having seen a UFO in Gobernador Ugarte."  Muchas gracias
a Scott Corrales, Gloria Coluchi y Alicia Rossi para eso
articulos de diario.)


MUTILATIONS CONTINUE TO
SWEEP THROUGH ARGENTINA

       Another cattle mutilation took place in Argentina's
Cordoba province last week.
       "The cow, sporting non-traditional injuries, was
found in a pasture field of the Boulevard 17 extension.
It was mutilated, and this time the cattle rustlers were
not to blame.  The government drafted an official report
blaming the shy red-muzzled mouse.  By comparison,
popular opinion suggests the Chupacabras or little green
men."
       "Whether it is one thing or another, a rancher from
Colon had the fright of his life.  His name is Forti, and
he lives in a development of 150 dwellings.  The pasture
field is located between Colon and Wheelwright, and there
it was that the man found a bovine with strange
mutilations...precise cuts on the chest, the tongue
extracted with admirable precision and the absence of
genitalia."
       "The rancher summoned an expert and was further
astonished by the find, because nothing similar had ever
happened before.  This cow can be added to the mutilated
animals found at Hughes, Wheelwright and Villa
Constitucion" in recent weeks.
       In Buenos Aires province, "A calf was found with
incisions identical to those cases which had already
become known.  What is strange about the find is that the
calf is the property of Antonio Fernandez and was found
dead and mutilated on a farm adjacent to his own.  The
owner believes that the animal fled to the neighboring
property because it became frightened by something."
       The calf was found in Salliquelo, the site of the
first mutilation back in April, and "is the first case
reported in which the animal was in an area of easy
access, closer to population centers and to any possible
witnesses."
       "Yesterday morning (Thursday, July 18, 2002)
livestock producer Luis Fernandez visited the Colonia
Yatai police barracks to report cases similar to those
which have been occurring with increasing frequency in
our province."
       The newspaper El Comercial interviewed "Senior
Officer Adolfo Salvador Valdez, who recounted what
transpired at the property of Luis Fernandez who at 11
a.m. 'reported the mysterious deaths of seven animals,
identical to those reported in the media in different
parts of the country (Argentina).'"
       Visiting the crime scene were Dr. Ariel Llamas,
director of the SENASA (Spanish acronym for National
Health and Agroalimentary Quality Service --J.T.) office
at Mision Laisi, and his aide, plus provincial medical
examiner Dr. Alcides Serochi and another physician.
       "With the arrival of the sheriff in charge of the
operation, they headed toward the field 5 kilometers (3
miles) distant from the police post along a rural road
and 60 kilometers (36 miles) from the city of Formosa."
       When the team reached the ranch, Fernandez's
employees "displayed all of the parts of the calf, and
the looks of astonishment on the faces of the persons in
charge of conducting the research were evident.  The same
form of cauterization on the sides of the animal's mouth,
perfect incisions and no bleeding, the absence of an eye-
-it was all remarkable once again, due to the high skill
with which 'the Chupacabra' had done its work."
       "A tenant farmer remarked, 'You can see that this
critter knows a lot about cows.'"
       Dr. Ariel Llamas "explained that (the calf) showed
the same conditions he had found not long ago at Laishi:
cauterization of the wounds, absence of an eye and the
tongue, as if the latter had been extracted from the
animal's mouth through the underside of the mouth bone,
with extra care and precision."
       "Five of the (cows) mutilated during the course of
the week belong to Roberto Rafael Rango and the remainder
to Luis Fernandez.  After performing several studies, it
was noted that the animal's hide presented a total lack
of coloration, almost bordering on the transparent."
       In addition, "the animal's flesh was brought to the
central area of the ranch 'to feed the dogs with,' and it
was an astonishment to see that not even the dogs, who
are used to eating 'anything they can get,' would partake
of the meal.  It was also remarkable how swiftly (the
meat) turned black and 'not even the flies' came close to
it.'"
       "The explanation was not even remotely offered by
the SENASA technicians present, not did they offer
details about the event."
       Finally, "a calf was found mutilated in the town of
Bragado," in Buenos Aires province, "and the subject was
discussed by local residents.  The event was confirmed
yesterday (Tuesday, July 16, 2002) and it took place on a
ranch in the Rauch Viejo district, more precisely at the
Estancia Maria Magdalena, owned by the Vacarezza family."
       "The calf was found by Oscar Latorre, who explained
that the animal died 15 days ago (Monday, July 1, 2002),
apparently intoxicated (poisoned--J.T.)  'The animal died
constipated,' he remarked."
       "He stated that he was able to see the animal with
signs of mutilation on Monday morning (July 15, 2002) and
he has no doubt 'that it could be a rodent, given the
tracks I found.'"
       "'What is extraordinary about this case is the fact
that the animal had been dead for 15 days yet does not
present any signs of decomposition and had not been
devoured by vultures and foxes, who are frequently seen
around the area,' said Latorre."
       "The animal (calf) was missing its tongue, eyes,
ears and had perforations in the anal area."  (See the
Argentinian newspapers Semanario Colon for July 12, 2002,
"Colon joins the mutilated cow club;" Salliquelo Online
for July 14, 2002, "New animal mutilation in Salliquelo;"
El Comercial for July 19, 2002, "Cattle mutilations
continue;" and La Voz de Bragado for July 17, 2002, "A
mutilated calf found in Bragado."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, Alicia Rossi and Gloria Coluchi por esos
articulos de diario.)
(Editor's Comment: It's not just Argentina, readers.  The
current UFO-and-mutilations flap is spreading all over
South America.  Read on.)


TWO SHEEP FOUND MUTILATED
NEAR SALTO, URUGUAY

       "Two dead sheep were found on the property of Walter
Antonio Remedi, located at Colonia Gestido," in the
department (state) of Salto in Uruguay, a small nation on
the eastern border of Argentina.  "The man found a dead
sheep with mutilations on its head as he surveyed his
fields."
       "The animal found by Remedi was missing an ear, an
eye, the tongue and all of the flesh on the left side of
its face.  A swath of black wool and a lump of flesh were
found at its side."
       "Five hundred meters (1,750 feet) away, a second
dead sheep was found with similar injuries to the head
area, but it had already been attacked by dogs or other
animals."
       "As with other animals which have turned up dead in
other parts of the country (Uruguay), this case includes
sheep and not cows.  There were no signs of spilled
blood."  (See the newspaper El Argentino of Entre Rios
province for July 14, 2002, "Dead sheep with head
mutilations at Salto."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y
Alicia Rossi para eso articulo de diario.)
(Editor's Note: For more on the current mutilation flap
in Uruguay, see UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 27 for July
2, 2002, "Cattle mutilations spread in Uruguay," page 1.)


LUMINOUS UFO HOVERS OVER
VILLARICA IN CHILE

       "Around 9 p.m. on Wednesday night (July 10, 2002),
dozens of families in Villarica," a small city in Chile's
La Araucania region, "were watching TV or listening to
the friendly noise of their local radio station, which
mixed with the soft sound of the rain falling in the
darkness."
       "But the tranquility was suddenly and unexpectedly
altered by the appearance of an unidentified flying
object (UFO), which lit up the winter night."
(Editor's Note:  July is the middle of winter in Chile,
Argentina, Uruguay, Peru, Australia, South Africa and the
other countries in the southern hemisphere.)
       "In spite of the fact that the clouds obstructed a
clear view of the object, it was seen from several parts
of the lake region by hundreds of people, and yesterday
(Thursday, July 11, 2002) the incredible phenomenon was
being discussed in all corners of the city."
       "On Wednesday night (July 10, 2002), in the control
booth of Radio Adumanque, Patricio Castillo, 28, was
choosing music selections for hundreds of listeners while
the rain continued outside.  When the clock reached 9:15
p.m., the (radio) station's phones began to ring.  The
radio controller raised a headphone and heard the voice
of his co-worker, Pilar Castillo, asking him to look out
the window because there was a very strange object in the
sky."
       "Patricio hung up and opened one of the windows,
leaned out and saw the strange object in the dark and
rainy winter night."
       "'I looked out and I saw a luminous object with
three red lights on one of its sides.  It was still for a
few seconds and then made a very swift movement.  I
stopped looking at it for a few seconds because I ran in
to play a song and, when I returned, it was gone,'"
Patricio said.
       Patricio "had been working for nine years in radio
and had never had a similar experience.  'I used to not
believe in those things, but my opinion changed after
this,'" he added.
       "Pilar Castillo, host of the Morning Chat with Pili
show, stated that after 9 p.m. she had left a meeting
when she realized that there was something strange in the
sky.  Some of the persons with her were astounded as the
luminous object vanished suddenly."
       "'It was like it was a shooting star that changed
colors as it went away.  It came from the direction of
Nancul to Villarica.  It was red for some minutes and
then it turned violet,'" Pilar reported.
       "Alberto Sandoval, 47, host of the Global Mexico
show, who had spent 28 years in radio, confirmed that he
had indeed managed to film the UFO.  'A neighbor called
me and told me to go outside with my camera to film a
strange object.  I took out my videocamera and, between
the raindrops, managed to obtain some images, which have
a duration of about five seconds.'"  (See the Chilean
newspaper El Diario Austral de Araucania for July 12,
2002, "UFO causes sensation throughout Villarica."
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para eso
articulo de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  South America is not alone in
reporting UFO sightings.  Last week, UFO Roundup received
sightings stories from all over planet Earth.  Keep
reading--there's more to come.)


DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED NEAR
PRETORIA, SOUTH AFRICA

       On Sunday, June 30, 2002, at 4 p.m., Chris
Barkhuizen was in his hometown of Centurian, a suburb of
Pretoria, the capital of South Africa, when he spotted a
strange glimmer in the bright blue northern sky.
       "A silver disk approached from a northerly direction
at a very high speed," Chris reported, "Every now and
then, it seemed to have a short dart off in a side
movement, still continuing in a straight line, moving
from north to south.  The most amazing part is that there
was no sound at all."
       "The object was a silver colour, disk-like shape.
At 3,000 metres (10,000 feet), it maintained a continued
speed all the time at about five times faster than a
jumbo jet.  (That is, an estimated speed of 3,200
kilometers per hour or 2,000 miles per hour--J.T.)"
(Email Form Report)


LUMINOUS UFO SIGHTED IN
NORTHERN AUSTRALIA

       On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 8:03 p.m., David Hassen
was at home in Howard Springs, near Darwin, Northern
Territory, Australia, when he spotted "a bright light"
approaching from the east.
       "I was outside the front of my house, and I was
looking at this real big star," David reported, "To the
right of the star I saw a bright light that blinked
twice, then moved about 100 metres (330 feet) over a one-
second delay, then blinked twice again.  Then it moved
once more and blinked twice."
       "After I could not see it any more, I started to go
(west) back to my house, and then I saw a huge red-orange
shape that looked like a triangle.  It zoomed across the
skies.  About the height (altitude) of an incoming plane.
Its speed was faster than a shooting star."  (Email Form
Report)


FAST FLYBY IN THE AEGEAN

       On Friday, July 5, 2002, at 11 p.m., two guests
stepped out onto the terrace at the Hotel Kalithea Mare
on Rhodos (Rhodes), a small island in the Aegean Sea
southeast of Greece.  One spied a reddish glow on the
sea's horizon and pointed.
       As they watched, "a brilliant red light" lit up the
night sky.  "The object was two kilometers (1.2 miles)
away," the witnesses reported, "Its motion was very fast.
We both had the object in sight for ten seconds."  (Many
thanks to Stefan Duncan of AUFON for forwarding this
report.)


ANOTHER SIGHTING IN VIENNA:
LARGE LUMINOUS UFO HOVERS
OVER LEOPOLDSTADT

       On Monday, July 15, 2002, the male witness, H.V.,
"sat on my balcony with my girlfriend at 9:30 p.m.  It
was still before sunset.  In total daylight, there
suddenly came a great, brilliant, shining object with
light as bright as sunlight.  I thought it might be a
planet but doubted it."
       "I tried a metal tube to see if it moved, and it
moved very slowly to the south.  This lasted for 12
minutes.  Suddenly, it got still brighter and vanished,
from one second to the other, even though there were no
clouds in the sky."
       H.V. added that his apartment is in Leopoldstadt, a
district on the east side of Vienna, the capital of
Austria.  His home is a few kilometers distant from
Hietzing, the site of recent UFO sightings in the
Austrian capital.  (Email Form Report)


HEAVY UFO ACTIVITY REPORTED
IN CENTRAL MEXICO

       On Friday, July 5, 2002, at 8 a.m., "a group of 30
to 40 metallic spheres was seen over the eastern section
of Mexico City," the national capital.
       "According to the report by Mexican ufologist Ana
Maria Cid, journalist Geraldo Martinez Fernandez observed
from his automobile a giant formation of 15 to 20 UFOs
continuing on a straight flight path through the sky over
the capital."
       "Other witnesses, such as Rafael Campos, observed
these spheres leaving a spherical object that was much,
much larger.  Francisco Dominguez also witnessed the
stream of UFOs leaving the larger object."
       Then, "at 9:30 a.m., Salvador Guerrero videotaped an
object in the form of a triangle and afterward the
passage of three spheres of a metallic appearance over
the eastern zone of Mexico City."
       "At 3:45 p.m." that day, "Ana Luisa Cid observed the
maneuvers of a grey spherical UFO flying over" Zacatenco,
"the area north of Mexico City.  This sighting took place
during a thunderstorm, and the UFO easily dodged the many
lightning bolts visible during the downpour.  Sra. Cid
had her videocamera but was unable to capture an image of
the flying object."
       "Later that afternoon, ufologist Alfonso Salazar
spotted a large spherical UFO flying from east to west
over the left runway at Mexico City International
Airport.  The UFO rose sharply and lost itself in a bank
of thunderclouds at an altitude of approximately 3,600
meters (12,000 feet)."
       "Also on Friday, July 5, 2002, engineer Bonnatti
Gamboa observed the passage of luminous flying spherical
UFOs over the Fraccionamiento Mulsay, in Merida," the
capital of Mexico's Yucatan state.  "The UFOs were a
brilliant red color and ascended vertically in a tight
formation.  The objects all moved in silence during their
flight."
       "On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, at 2:24 a.m., a witness
observed 'a sphere of great size and a red color' flying
over the seaside resort city of Cancun," in Mexico's
state of Quintana Roo.  "The witness reported that the
UFO raised and lowered itself in the sky, eventually
disappearing in the (Caribbean) sea haze on the horizon."
       "Also that day, Josue Aguilar and several other
witnesses observed the flight of a flaming UFO around the
peak of the volcano La Malintzin in the Mexican state of
Tlaxcala," located 120 kilometers (75 miles) east of
Mexico City.
(Editor's Note: Malintzin was a Tlaxcalan princess who
served as the interpreter--and mistress--of Spanish
conquistador Hernando Cortes during the invasion of
1519.)
       "According to Aguilar, the UFO emitted 'a strange
sound comparable to the hum of an electric motor.  It was
an intense red color but had a nucleus colored blue at
its center.'  Other witnesses said the UFO at first
hovered for several minutes above the volcano's peak
before beginning its flight."  (See NotiOVNI for July 14,
2002.  Muchas gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)


LUMINOUS UFO HOVERS OVER
BAYFIELD, WISCONSIN

       On Tuesday, July 2, 2002, at around 3:30 a.m., Alan
A. reported, "It was a clear night, the stars were
bright, and there was no wind.  I had just got home" to
Bayfield, Wisconsin (population 611), a small town on
Chequamegon Bay on the south shore of Lake Superior.
       "I live some miles from town, and my driveway is
somewhat long.  I was driving up my driveway and, as I
always do, I looked up to see how many stars there was.
I know a little about stars, so I thought it might be
Jupiter...but this time of year, that didn't seem right.
It was east, somewhat low in the sky.  I had to take my
eyes off it to see where I was going.  I parked my truck
and got out and went in the backyard to see my dog.  I
looked up another time, and it was not there."
       "I looked down for a second and looked back up, and
there it was.  It was really bright and closer than it
was the first time.  It was not moving, and there was no
noise.  I can say it was about 75 yards (65 meters) away,
and about 50 yards (45 meters) above the trees.  The
light was white.  At first I thought it might be a light
from a helicopter, but it was not making any noise, and
it was not moving."
       "Then, what happened next really stunned me.  A
second light came on right next to the other one.  It was
also white but a little bit brighter.  I was looking
right at it with amazement when, all of a sudden, it went
out, like someone turned it off.  I stayed looking to see
if I could see a shape or something, but I didn't see
anything.  I stayed out for an hour looking but nothing
happened.  So I gave up."
(Many thanks to John Hoppe of UFO Wisconsin for this
report.)
(Editor's Comment: Bayfield is 13 miles (20 kilometers)
northeast of Ashland, the "UFO capital" of Wisconsin.
Chequamegon Bay and the towns around it, Ashland,
Bayfield, Washburn, Red Cliff and Odanah, have reported
UFO sightings since 1947.  There is a persistent local
legend that claims the existence of an underwater UFO
base out there in the bay.)


SAUCER WITH LIGHTS VISITS
PRIOR LAKE, MINNESOTA

       On Wednesday, July 17, 2002, the female witness,
A.A., reported "a sighting of 12 lights forming a perfect
circle, hovering at approximately 20,000 feet (6,000
meters).  First sighted at 10:30 p.m. Central time.  All
12 lights appeared to move together, then back to the
position where we first spotted them.  They approached
from the south," moving into hover position over Prior
Lake, Minnesota (population 15,917), a town on Highway 13
about 20 miles (32 kilometers) south of Minneapolis.
       "They were circular lights, the size of the moon,
evenly spread in a perfect circle, all moving together.
Appeared not to be joined, although they moved together
in perfect unison.  Very slow-moving."  (Email Form
Report)


LUMINOUS UFO SIGHTED IN
SALE CREEK, TENNESSEE

       On Wednesday, July 17, 2002, at 9:30 p.m., witness
Kyle M. spotted a bright luminous UFO in Sale Creek,
Tennessee (population 1,200), a town located 25 miles (40
kilometers) north of Chattanooga.
       Kyle reported, "My attention was drawn to the object
due to the fact that it was much brighter and larger than
a regular star.  It seemed to be stationary in the
western sky, with small quick movements to the left and
right, always returning to the same location.  There were
no marker (navigation) lights like those of a plane or
helicopter.  It looked to be circular, but all that was
visible was a round 'ball' of light, flickering
slightly."
       "After watching for five minutes, the light faded
very quickly, came back much brighter a second or two
later, then immediately streaked off to the south, an
almost instantaneous departure."  (Email Form Report)


BLACK HELICOPTERS
RETURN TO REHOBOTH

       The presence of black helicopters in Rehoboth,
Massachusetts (population 7,600) continues to be a
mystery to the residents.  More sightings continued last
week, according to UFO Roundup correspondent Mary Lou
Jones-Drown.
       "Thursday night," July 11, 2002, "we had helicopters
around at dusk (8:30 p.m.) again but could not see them.
And around 11 p.m. again.  We could hear them but not see
them."
       "Saturday night," July 13, 2002, "we had one around
at dusk again, but I saw it barely covered by the tree
line.  I was looking out at Hilda the pony from the back
door of the barn, and the black helicopter was flying
from north to south, barely missing the treetops.
Weird!"
       "Then again last night (Sunday, July 14, 2002) just
about 11 p.m., we had another one flying by."
       Another witness told Mary Lou that "last night
(Sunday, July 14, 2002) we saw another late-night
helicopter.  It had one white light and one red (light),
like searchlights underneath the belly.  It appeared to
be flying along Route 44 (east to west) from Taunton,
Mass. to Providence, Rhode Island."  (Many thanks to Mary
Lou Jones-Drown for these reports.)
(Editor's Note:  For more on the mysterious black
helicopter flights over Rehoboth, see UFO Roundup, volume
7, number 28 for July 9, 2002, "Black helicopters are
active on Fourth of July," page 8.)


  From the UFO Files...

1952: SAUCER SUMMER

       Fifty years ago, in July 1952, began one of the most
spectacular UFO flaps in history.
       "Things were quiet during the first months of 1952,
but the summer saucer season was opened with a bang when
Pan American Airlines pilots William B. Nash and W.H.
Fortenberry sighted six glowing red discs while in flight
near Newport News, Virginia on the night of July 14
(1952)."
       "The objects, a mile below them, appeared to be
about a hundred feet (30 meters) in diameter, flying in
stepped-up echelon formation.  They executed a 150-degree
turn when below and just in front of the (four-propellor-
engine DC-6) airliner, heading in another direction to be
joined by two more discs which came from behind and
underneath the Pan American plane.  As they sped into the
night, the discs' lights blinked out, one by one."
       "Fifteen days later, on July 29 (1952), photographic
supplies salesman Sid Eubanks of Wichita, Kansas was
almost swept off U.S. Highway 81 between Bison and
Waukomis, Oklahoma by a low-flying, yellow-green, then
yellow-brown streak of light which appeared to the
frightened Eubanks to be about four hundred feet (120
meters) long.  He was still trembling with fright when he
told his story to police at Enid (Oklahoma).  He could
supply no more details than that the object was ball-
shaped when it was above him.  The press wire story
reported the basic facts."
       The flap was not confined to the USA alone.  "Flying
saucers" were reported all around the world, as well.
       "Infant Israel was saluted over Haifa in August by a
bright green elliptical object with a broad, rapidly-
revolving belt around its middle."
       "An oval-shaped object of great brilliance, emitting
tail smoke and flying at great speed, was reported over
Bogota," the capital of Colombia.
       "An object flashed out of the stratosphere and
stopped for twenty seconds over Rome (Italy) before it
disappeared."
       "Three high-flying, speedy, saucer-shaped objects
scouted Madrid (Spain) at night, leaving vapor trails."
       "One of the more sensational reports came from East
Germany where a man and his daughter claimed they had
seen a flying disc on the ground and two men in silvery
suits near it."
       But these sightings were only the prelude to the big
event--"the battle of Washington, D.C.," which took place
in late July 1952.  (See the book Flying Saucers: The
Startling Evidence of the Invasion from Outer Space by
Coral E. Lorenzen, Signet Books, New American Library,
Inc., New York, N.Y., 1966, pages 36 through 38.)


       That's it for this week.  Join us again in seven
days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions,
all rights reserved.

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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                                   Uh Oh!

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:32:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:32:29 -0400
Subject: Uh Oh!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2147879.stm

An asteroid could devastate Earth
By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor

An asteroid discovered just weeks ago has become the most
threatening object yet detected in space.

A preliminary orbit suggests that 2002 NT7 is on an impact
course with Earth and could strike the planet on 1 February,
2019 - although the uncertainties are large.

Astronomers have given the object a rating on the so-called
Palermo technical scale of threat of 0.06, making NT7 the first
object to be given a positive value.

 From its brightness, astronomers estimate it is about two
kilometres wide, large enough to cause continent-wide
devastation on Earth.

Many observations

Although astronomers say the object definitely merits attention,
they expect more observations to show it is not on an Earth-
intersecting trajectory.


This asteroid has now become the most threatening object in the
short history of asteroid detection

Dr Benny Peiser
It was first seen on the night of 5 July, picked up by the
Linear Observatory's automated sky survey programme in New
Mexico, US.

Since then astronomers worldwide have been paying close
attention to it, amassing almost 200 observations in a few
weeks.

Could it be deflected?

Dr Benny Peiser, of Liverpool John Moores University in the UK,
told BBC News Online that "this asteroid has now become the most
threatening object in the short history of asteroid detection".

NT7 circles the Sun every 837 days and travels in a tilted orbit
from about the distance of Mars to just within the Earth's
orbit.

Potential devastation

Detailed calculations of NT7's orbit suggest many occasions when
its projected path through space intersects the Earth's orbit.

Researchers estimate that on 1 February, 2019, its impact
velocity on the Earth would be 28 km a second - enough to wipe
out a continent and cause global climate changes.

However, Dr Peiser was keen to point out that future
observations could change the situation.

He said: "This unique event should not diminish the fact that
additional observations in coming weeks will almost certainly -
  we hope - eliminate the current threat."

Easily observable

According to astronomers, NT7 will be easily observable for the
next 18 months or so, meaning there is no risk of losing the
object.

Observations made over that period - and the fact that NT7 is
bright enough that it is bound to show up in old photographs -
  mean that scientists will soon have a very precise orbit for
the object.

Dr Donald Yeomans, of the US space agency's (Nasa) Jet
Propulsion Laboratory in California, told BBC News Online: "The
orbit of this object is rather highly inclined to the Earth's
orbit so it has been missed because until recently observers
were not looking for such objects in that region of space."

Regarding the possibility of an impact, Dr Yeomans said the
uncertainties were large.

"The error in our knowledge of where NT7 will be on 1 February,
2019, is large, several tens of millions of kilometres," he
said.

Dr Yeomans said the world would have to get used to finding more
objects like NT7 that, on discovery, look threatening, but then
become harmless.

"This is because the problem of Near-Earth Objects is now being
properly addressed," he said.








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   Jul > Jul 24

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:08:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:46:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Randle


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:38:47 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:40:23 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:22:49 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


Good Morning John, List, All -

I have stood back in this debate and watch it rage from the
claim there were 48 witnesses to the claim there were none
because none have been named to the point where there were three
additional witnesses named. I would like to know at what point,
with how many names, does this case actually become multiple
witness and why the number of 48 is considered to be relevant.
Yes, Jerry Clark used that number and it is in his much
appreciated encyclopedia, but the real point is that we have
photographs and we have the names of many witnesses and
indications that there are many others.

As Brad Sparks has noted, Cdr. Paulo Moreira da Silva, Navy
Hydrographic & Navigation Service (who told the press he saw the
"greenish glow" from the UFO and that it could not have been a
balloon, guided missile, airplane or seagull, and that the UFO
was sighted by "Many people of recognized responsibility" on the
ship, and that "The image of the object on the negatives was
verified" onboard the ship after they were developed, by
"several officers" on the ship, "Thus discarding any possibility
of a photographic trick" according to Cdr. Moreira, who
concluded "The photos are genuine." (O Jornal, Feb. 26, 1958,
see Fontes article, APRO Bulletin 1960, in:

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/fontesarticle.htm and
http://www.cufos.org/trindade_fontes_article1960.html)

Commander Moreira da Silva seems to be another who witnessed the
craft and added detail to the sighting and is a name that we had
not seen in all these earlier discussions. He also mentions many
people had sighted the object which suggests more than just the
photographer, or the three names that have already been
introduced.

Sparks also mentioned, Commander Carlos Alberto Bacellar,
director of IGY Station Trindade (who had personally theodolite
tracked a UFO on Jan. 6, 1958, on Trindade)

Sparks gives us the names we already had which were Lt. Homero
Ribeiro, ship's dentist; 5. Farias de Azevedo, Jornal do Brasil
photographer; AF Capt. (ret.) Jose Teoboldo Viegas and, of
course Almiro Barauna, the photographer. He then adds a new name
to the mix which is Amilar Vieira Filho.

We now have more than half a dozen names of witnesses and some
evidence, direct evidence, that others saw the object. No, it's
not the 48 that Clark claimed, but we're moving in that
direction. The question I have is if this is enough for us to
agree that the object photographed could not have been a double
exposure or other trick because there seem to be witnesses to
the object in the air and they are suggesting that the object in
the photographs is what they saw in the sky.

And now I will return to a study of the Mantell case.


KRandle








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   Jul > Jul 24

                    Setting the Record Straight - Again!

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:30:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:58:44 -0400
Subject: Setting the Record Straight - Again!


Hello All,

Because of a negative and _vicious_ smear campaign that has
been launched against me by a couple of individuals, I find
myself in the uncomfortable and awkward position of having to
publicly defend myself.

Briefly; e-mails  which contain a string of malicious lies about
me have been circulated (privately) to List members and others.
I have no idea how many people this attempt at character
assassination may have reached. In it, I am being accused of
horrendous (and on the face of it 'absurd') acts, such as:

... that I "threatened the livelihood of an abductee" because
they "would not bow to my will."

... that I have "called abductees at their homes and cursed them
out."

... that Errol Bruce-Knapp has been helping in "getting the word
out" about me - privately - to "people who need to know" these
things about me.

I don't think I need to assist these mean-spirited and self-
serving 'character disorders' by listing all of the _libelous_
lies that they have been circulating about me. Suffice it to say
that are _all_ destructive fabrications, and made-up nonsense
intended solely to destroy any credibility and good will that I
may have garnered over the years with members of this List, the
abductees and the UFO community at large.

I sincerely regret having to compose and post contributions to
the List of this nature. But I find myself between a rock and a
hard place in terms of how to deal with/answer this kind of
'behind my back' attacks on my character and integrity both as a
human being and as an active participant in this forum.

The sad truth for me is; that some people are actually going to
believe these malicious lies. There really isn't much I can do
about that, or them. In that sense the 'damage is done'.

I do however find it upsetting to me personally that after seven
years of _dedicated_ hard work trying to inform, help and to
earn the trust and confidence of those who may be involved in
this abduction business, that these malicious lies will be
circulating out there, in cyberspace for Lord knows how long.

My hands are tied. I can't run around trying to convince
everyone of my innocence. Nor do I feel the need to. I hope that
this note from me reaches at least some of the people that
received the original, privately sent, 'poison pen' letter.

I was never included in the mailing. I was never given the
opportunity to either respond to it, or to defend my own
character and reputation. That, in and of itself should speak
volumes about the agenda, character and nature of the
individuals that wrote and circulated it in the first place.

And all because I 'dare' to _ask_questions_ and to demand the
_best_ out of anyone, who professes to be involved with
abductees or their plight.

This will be the last that I will trouble the List with the
activities of these self-serving and malicious dolts. The fact
that these people are working so hard at what is basically a
negative and destructive act should make it clear to anyone what
their intentions are and provide an insight into the black
content of their hearts and souls.

I would like to publicly express heart-felt regrets to my valued
friend EBK that his good name has been dragged into this mess
involving me. I have always had nothing but the warmest
affection and deepest respect for him. I hate being involved in
anything that touches him in any negative fashion. But then, I'm
not the one who used his name and dragged him into what is
essentially - one person's attempt to raise the value of their
own stock by destroying me as a person in the eyes of those I
interact with here and elsewhere.

Again, with regrets for taking up the valuable time of the List
members.


John Velez,

_Besieged_


Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition









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   Jul > Jul 24

              Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:52:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:13:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Warren


 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:42:05 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

<snip>

 >So, aside from eye witness accounts of UFOs (verbatim) as well
 >as the infamous picture, it appears there is also radar
 >confirmation via the searchlights themselves. In addition, with
 >this ability to lock on directly to the target(s) it becomes
 >increasingly difficult to believe that the object did not suffer
 >any direct hits. This of course brings up another question, what
 >in 1942 could take 'direct hits' from 3 guns and still fly?

<snip>

Hi Errol,

To avoid any confusion the last sentence in the third paragraph
should read: "This of course brings up another question, "what
in 1942 could take 'direct hits' from 3" guns and still fly?"

That's 3 "inch" guns, not "3 guns."

Thanks

Frank








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   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:02:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:16:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >>Eyewitness testimony is what eyewitness testimony is: sometimes
 >>it's accurate and sometimes it's not. In this case, we can only
 >>hope that it's accurate and that a dangerous situation has been
 >>ended. This is an interesting, and seemingly powerful anecdote,
 >>but an anecdote is only what an anecdote is.

 >Exactly the same can be said, of course, for the anecdotes about
 >unreliable eyewitness testimony with which critics of anomalous
 >claims have regaled us for years.

 >For a scholarly study of eyewitness testimony in cases of
 >anomalous experience, there is David Hufford's classic work,
 >which is harsh, specific, and empirical in its criticisms of
 >sloppy claims, as often as not buttressed by unexamined cultural
 >prejudices, of eyewitness unreliability. This is an area in
 >which debunkers as much as proponents need to be far more
 >careful than they have been in the past. The Runnion case should
 >serve as yet another cautionary tale to all who would dismiss
 >"anecdotal testimony" as inherently worthless.

Jerry, List:

The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association
has warned that, "It is not known how to distinguish, with
complete accuracy, memories based on true events from those
derived from other sources..... Memories also can be
significantly influenced by a trusted person (e.g., therapists,
parent involved in a custody dispute) who suggests abuse as an
explanation for symptoms/problems, despite initial lack of
memory of such abuse. It has also been shown that repeated
questioning may lead individuals to report memories of events
that never occurred." (American Psychiatric Association,
Statement on Memories of Sexual Abuse News Release, Dec. 12,
1993. American Psychiatric Association, Washington, D.C.)

And also not, Loftus, E.F. & Pickrell, J.E. (1995) The
formation of false memories. Psychiatric Annals, 25, 720-725.

"Literally thousands of studies have documented how our memories
can be disrupted by things that we experienced earlier
(proactive interference) or things that we experienced later
(retroactive interference)..... The new, post-event information
often becomes incorporated into the recollection, supplementing
or altering it, sometimes in dramatic ways.....

In some experiments the deficits in memory performance following
receipt of misinformation have been dramatic, with performance
differences as large as 30 or 40%, and;

"...misleading post-event information can alter a person's
recollection in a powerful ways, even leading to the creation of
false memories of objects that never in fact existed." Loftus,
E.F. & Pickrell, J.E. (1995) The formation of false memories.
Psychiatric Annals, 25, 720-725.

Also look at Loftus's book 'Eyewitness Testimony' for further
examples of the fallibility of memory.

Without outside objective evidence, how can you ever be certain
whether the eyewitness testimony is correct.

I would also point out that the arrest of the alleged
perpetrator in the recent abduction/murder was also assisted by
the independent reports of other children in the neighborhood
who apparently confirmed details of the 5-year old's account.


Clearest skies in days,

Bob Young








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   Jul > Jul 24

                       Roswell Honored By Civic Group

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:06:05 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:17:40 -0400
Subject: Roswell Honored By Civic Group


Source: Farmington Daily Times (New Mexico),

http://www.daily-times.com/Stories/0,1413,129%257E6574%257E744382,00.html

Stig

***

Article Last Updated:
Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 9:57:38 AM MST

Roswell honored by civic group

Staff report

**

KANSAS CITY, Mo. Roswell is one of 10 communities across the
nation designated as All-America Cities this year by the
National Civic League.

The All-America City Award program is 53 years old and
recognizes civic excellence, honoring selected communities each
year.

Roswell was honored in June, the New Mexico Municipal League
announced in its most recent newsletter.

Roswell was selected for a dental program aimed at poor
children, a program to help pay for school uniforms for
disadvantaged children and an economic- development program
based on the alleged 1947 crash of a UFO near the town.

Roswell also received an All-America City designation in 1978.

Other winners this year are: Tuscaloosa, Ala.; Anchorage,
Alaska; Fountain, Colo.; Elgin, Ill.; Buffalo, N.Y.; Huntington,
N.Y.; Weslaco, Texas; Hampton, Va.; and Everett, Wash.

In San Juan County, Aztec received this honor in 1963.

Other New Mexico cities which have been similarly honored are:
Albuquerque, 1957; Jemez Springs, 1995; Taos, 1994; and Las
Vegas, 1960.

**

=A9 1999-2002 MediaNews Group, Inc








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:10:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:22:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >the police did not rely solely
 >on the eyewitness evidence of the little girl. This was
 >valuable, but it served to lead them to DNA evidence which
 >appears to be the basis of their case.

 >No UFO case has evidence one hundredth as convincing as forensic
 >DNA evidence.

John, Robert, List:

This is a crucial point. Has any alleged UFO abduction every
been supported by the discovery of alien DNA? Of course, I am
offering this thought with the knoweldge that it may inaugurate
a six-week debate on this list as to how we would know it was
alien DNA.


Clear skies,

Bob Young

"Keep your eyes a little wide and blank" - Dr Miles Bennell's
instructions on how to look like a pod person, Invasion of the
Body Snatchers (1956)







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                    Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twining

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:14:35 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:24:15 -0400
Subject: Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twining


Source: The Scotsman

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=3D783752002

Stig

***

Scotland On Sunday

Sun 21 Jul 2002

**

Top Scots UFO site in Roswell tie

TOBY McDONALD

*

THE UFO capital of Scotland will take a step closer to twinning
with Roswell next month when a colourful councillor jets off to
meet the mayor of the New Mexico town.

Billy Buchanan is due to meet Bill B Owen Mayor of Roswell -
  where an 'alien craft' crash-landed in 1947 - to discuss the
otherworldly twinning plan with Bonnybridge.

The Stirlingshire town held its first skywatch yesterday when
hundreds of UFO spotters scoured the skies for evidence of
extra- terrestrials.

Scotland tops the world league for UFO sightings by geographical
area with four times as many as Italy and France, which came
joint second in the table. And the country tops a second league
table based on sightings per head of population, beating Canada
into second place.

Yesterday, Buchanan, who has a dozen sightings of his own to his
credit, said: "It will be a great day for Bonnybridge and put it
firmly on the map.

"There are a lot of disbelievers but they cannot find
explanations for all the sightings."

**

=A92002 scotsman.com







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:25:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 01:42:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Run-on Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Run-on Case

 >Brad Sparks reminded me that he had posted an "analysis of IF
 >cases in the Condone Report proving that eyewitness observations
 >[not their interpretations of observations) were 97%- 98%
 >accurate." The link is:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m11-030.shtml

 >and is entitled: Condon Report Proves Accuracy of Witnesses.

 >We still haven't heard from the skeptibunkers about why witness
 >testimony is to be considered totally unreliable when someone
 >mentions UFO, yet if its a kidnapping or something else these
 >same skeptibunkers never utter a peep.....

Brad, Robert, et. al.:

Fine work, pointing out the obvious, that IFOs had enough
worthwhile info in them to correctly discover the prosaic
stimuli. Brad has performed a very useful service with this
work.

I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

Could you provide a citation, please?

Clear skies,
Bob Young

"Any facts which, when included in the argument, give the
desired results, are fair facts for the argument".

- - - Fairfax's Law







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              China's Extraordinary Development Attracting ET?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:37:35 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:26:57 -0400
Subject: China's Extraordinary Development Attracting ET?


Source: Shanghai Star, July 18,

http://chinadaily.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2002/0718/vo2-2.html

Stig

***

Orange, Red Starmen Over China

By Rosanne Lin, Shanghai Star. 2002-07-18

**

Considering the recent rash of UFO sightings over China, it is
worth noting the opinion of Sun Shili, a retired foreign
ministry official who is now president of the Beijing UFO
Research Society - he believes waixingren (extraterrestrials)
are living among us.

Sun's first close encounter occurred in 1971, when he was sent
to the remote countryside during the "cultural revolution"
(1966-76) to perform the grueling task of rice planting. One day
while toiling in the field, his attention was diverted to a
bright object in the sky, which rose and fell repeatedly. At
first, Sun assumed the spectacle was some sort of monitoring
device - a reasonable deduction considering the times - however
years later, after reading foreign materials on UFO sightings,
he knew he had experienced a close encounter.

Today, Sun does not rule out any possibility, including aliens
living and working in Chinese society - a position often
difficult to refute.

And Sun is not the only expert in the country taking these
sightings seriously. According to the highly-accredited Shen
Shituan, a real rocket scientist, president of Beijing Aerospace
University and honorary director of the China UFO Research
Association, every report of an alien encounter is worth
investigating.

Shen doesn't dismiss any story as too absurd, including the
claims of one worker that aliens entered his Beijing home while
his wife and child were present, and whisked him 265 kilometres
east and back in only a few hours.

But what do these aliens want? Why visit China? Are they
interested in participating in the 2008 Olympics? Maybe they are
interested in setting up a venue should Shanghai host the 2010
World Expo? Or perhaps, they harbour more sinister intentions.
After all humans beings have been known to eat the flesh of
intelligent life forms - whale blubber and dog meat. Need I say
more?

Cook books aside, one media pundit has pointed to the
interesting parallels between America's close encounters of the
1950s and the spate of recent visitations to China. In the
1950s, with the US set to dominate world affairs, observers from
other worlds may have wanted to learn more about the growing
superpower. Following this logic, China's extraordinary
development could be attracting the attention of alien visitors.
They may be looking to open a nightclub on Shanghai's Maoming Lu
or an electronics factory in Guangdong. Perhaps, the Beijing
worker was spirited away to act as some sort of investment
adviser. Such possibilities cannot be ignored - foreign direct
investment is growth capital no matter what the country or
planet of origin.

Of course, all these speculations assume that aliens do exist
and are observing the earth and its species. Yet, there are
still those who reject this idea.

Such skeptics need to reflect on the ubiquitous child's ant
farm. The minuscule creatures toil endlessly completely unaware
that they are being watched and that, with a simple tap on the
glass by the giant undetected observer, what would amount to
half a life time's work for an ant could be destroyed. So why do
we think ourselves so superior?

And if these foreign visitors should show themselves it would
add a whole new meaning to the term yangguizi (foreign devil). I
guess as science fiction writers often predict, alien overlords
would give mankind a reason to abandon racial and cultural
prejudices - we would have someone new to hate.

linmeigui@yahoo.com.hk

**

Copyright by Shanghai Star.








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               USA Today: UFO Event Visited By Six 'Unknowns'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:58:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:28:38 -0400
Subject: USA Today: UFO Event Visited By Six 'Unknowns'


Source: AP via USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/front.htm

Stig

***

Offbeat

07/24/2002 - Updated 10:11 AM ET

**

<snip>

UFO event gets unexpected visitors

**

DUNDEE, Wis. =97 Six glowing amber spheres lit up the night sky
Saturday above a forested area on the northern edge of Long
Lake, lending credence to the statement, "They're out there."
More than 150 spectators watched as the lights moved
methodically across the sky. The unknown lights were a surprise,
but not entirely unexpected for those who had gathered there for
UFO Daze, an event held each July for the past 12 years. "If
it's a hoax, it's a good one," said Bill Benson, owner of
Benson's Holiday Hideaway, a small country tavern. UFO Daze
guests spent the day hearing from who said they had encountered
UFOs. Bonnie Meyer of Neenah, a presenter at the event, said she
has had alien contacts since 1976 when a craft came down over
the road as she was driving. "I was camping in New London over
the Fourth of July with my husband, friends and family," Meyer
said. "A ladder dropped down and an alien in a silver suit waved
me over. At first I wasn't going to go, but I figured I'd never
have that chance again." Since then, Meyer said, there have been
steady contacts. They come down and she goes with them, she
said. She said her neighbors don't notice because the ship puts
up a force- field that prevents others from seeing them. "I've
met about 16 different alien varieties, from those who look like
the Pillsbury Doughboy to ones that look like a blue Big Bird.
They've always been friendly and kind."

<snip>

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or
redistributed.








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   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:30:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:19:21 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -050

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


John,

 >>>Eyewitness testimony is what eyewitness testimony is: sometimes
 >>>it's accurate and sometimes it's not. In this case, we can only
 >>>hope that it's accurate and that a dangerous situation has been
 >>>ended. This is an interesting, and seemingly powerful anecdote,
 >>>but an anecdote is only what an anecdote is.

 >>Exactly the same can be said, of course, for the anecdotes about
 >>unreliable eyewitness testimony with which critics of anomalous
 >>claims have regaled us for years.

 >>For a scholarly study of eyewitness testimony in cases of
 >>anomalous experience, there is David Hufford's classic work,
 >>which is harsh, specific, and empirical in its criticisms of
 >>sloppy claims, as often as not buttressed by unexamined cultural
 >>prejudices, of eyewitness unreliability. This is an area in
 >>which debunkers as much as proponents need to be far more
 >>careful than they have been in the past. The Runnion case should
 >>serve as yet another cautionary tale to all who would dismiss
 >>"anecdotal testimony" as inherently worthless.

 >I don't really understand why Jerome Clark is bringing David
 >Hufford in here, although I suppose it's inevitable that he
 >would. After all, the great man is wheeled in as an authority
 >figure to bolster any claim that Jerry seems to be making.

In case you haven't read his book, John, Hufford deals at great
length with the subject of how accurate witness testimony often
is, and how it can be used to define the nature and dynamics of
anomalous and seemingly anomalous experience. He mounts a
powerful argument against the pelicanist practice of claiming
that since you can't trust eyewitness testimony, you are free to
reinvent the witness' account (on the grounds that he or she was
clearly mistaken), change it into something you can explain, and
then "explain" what you've invented. Fortunately, the police who
investigated the case of Samantha Runnion knew better.

 >Let's get a few things clear about this case. The police
 >arrested and charged the suspect only after the initial
 >identification had been confirmed by DNA evidence which linked
 >the suspect to the murdered girl. Little Sarah's eyewitness
 >evidence was important in leading police to the suspect, but on
 >its own would not have been enough to warrant an arrest.

You're really clutching at straws here. The five-year-old girl's
eyewitness testimony was right on target. It led police to the
suspect. You are trying to drop red herrings into the rhetorical
waters. The point remains: . Like it or not, pelicanist doctrine
notwithstanding, the testimony of a five-year-old girl almost
exactly described the kidnapper/murderer and his automobile.
That was the subject of the NYT piece, which you seem to be
trying to rewrite.

 >In the course of the Satanic abuse panic (which has been covered
 >in a number of article in Magonia) children have given vivid
 >eyewitness accounts of being sexually abused in spaceships,
 >seeing their friends being fed to sharks in swimming pools, and
 >other absurd and outrageous claims. Of course, when these
 >allegations have been investigated, not a shred of evidence has
 >been found for them. Unfortunately, this has not prevented some
 >people being imprisoned on these uncorroborated claims.

Incredible. Apples and oranges, or maybe, more accurately,
apples and elephants.

If you've read the relevant literature, you'd know that a whole
different dynamic is involved here, prominently the interference
and coaching of children by "recovered memory" therapists, often
of Christian fundamentalist backgrounds, who plant wild ideas
into the minds of impressionable little kids (and sometimes
adults). I'm surprised that you'd be dragging in such a feeble,
irrelevant argument here. Is the notion that eyewitness
testimony can be quite accurate _that_ threatening to the
fragile doctrine of the pelican?.

 >It's good that this little girl was able to give a good
 >description of her friend's alleged attacker and the police were
 >able to find further evidence which corroborated her story. But
 >such definitive scientific corroboration seems to be missing in
 >UFO reports.

Define "definitive scientific corroboration." You apparently
believe there is a universal agreement on what that loaded term
means, though there is a whole, long history of science to
testify otherwise to the elusive quality of that concept. In any
event, your attempt to change the subject aside, the moral is
clear enough to the rest of us, I should think: eyewitness
testimony can be accurate indeed, and one dismisses it out of
hand at one's peril.

 >Incidently, isn't it just a couple of days ago that Jerry was
 >criticising me for making analogies between the evidence
 >involved in UFO cases and the sort of forensic evidence needed
 >in court case?

Huh? With this one, the straw disappears from the pelican's
clasp and sails off into the ether. I am not talking about a
court case, unless I've missed something or I'm not as psychic
as you are. (In any event, there is no court case involved here.
The suspect hasn't gone on trial and won't go for many months.)
I am talking about a case in which eyewitness testimony was
strikingly accurate -- something that, according to pelicanist
doctrine, is not supposed to happen.

 >Somehow the words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind.

Somehow the phrases "logical vacuum," "incoherent
argumentation," and "desperation" come to mind. If I were you,
I'd pull in my pelican wings and head home. You've lost this
one.


Jerry Clark








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   Jul > Jul 24

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:37:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:32:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:38:47 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:40:23 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:22:49 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


John,

 >>There may be grounds for "serious questions about [the Trindade
 >>case's] validity," but you have yet to raise them. There are
 >>certainly questions -- there usually are; otherwise, it wouldn't
 >>be the UFO mystery, would it? --

 >Sorry, Jerry, but I'm afraid that there is no room for questions
 >- serious or otherwise - about the Trindade case. Richard Hall
 >has spoken:

 >"There is absolutely no doubt whatoever about the authenticity
 >of these photos. It boggles the mind that you should make such a
 >statement."

Well, John, it's up to you to provide the evidence that so far
you have failed to produce. Until you do, your critics will say
things like this. In the weighing of the evidence for the
authenticity of the Trindade sighting and photographs, the
scales are tipped entirely in one direction, unless you can find
something that shifts the balance.

 >And later:

 >"What you should have said here is that YOU don't know enough
 >about the case to make a definitive judgement. We do."

 >Does the "we" include you, Jerry?

Unless you can come up with negative evidence which so far has
eluded critics of the case, your critics are going to say things
like this. I generally agree with Dick's sentiment, though I
would have phrased it differently.

 >You keep going on about "the precise number of witnesses", as
 >though you were saying that there were 48, and I were
 >pedantically claiming that there were only 46. The difference
 >between three - identified and authenticated - and 48 is more
 >than a minor correction; it alters the whole nature of the case.

Known named witnesses to the Trindade UFO photographed
by A. Barauna:

Cdr. Carlos Alberto Bacellar, director of the Trindade IGY station
Cdr. Paulo Moreira da Silva
Lt. Homero Ribeiro
Farias de Azevedo
Almiro Barauna, photographer
Air Force Capt (ret.) Jose Teoboldo Viegas
Amilar Vieira Filho

Cdr. Moreira da Silva, of the Navy Hydrographic and Naviation
Service, told the press that the UFO could not have been a
balloon, guided missile, airplane, or seagull. He said it was
sighted by, besides himself, "many people of recognized
responsibility" on the ship. "Several officers" on the ship
verified "the image of the object on the negatives ... thus
discarding any possibility of a photographic trick."

 >I notice that, typically, you avoid the awkward question: where
 >did you get the figure 48 from, and why does it only appear in
 >photographic captions in your encyclopedias rather than in the
 >text, where one might expect a reference to the source?

I don't know. This all happened more than a decade ago, and I'd
have to dig through my Trindade file -- unfindable at the moment
since, like Dennis Stacy, I am in the process of moving all my
stuff to another house -- to answer that question. Of course it
was based on a source that I judged to be reliable, but not
having a world-class memory of arcana from the 1991 of my life,
I can't tell you off the top of my head

Incidentally, you phrase the question in an insulting manner, as
if intimating that I made this up. I would like to believe that
is not your intention.

 >Will you continue to use this figure if future editions of the
 >encyclopedia, or anything else you may write about the case?

Not without finding out where it came from. In any event, no
"future edition" is in the works or even being contemplated, so
it's probably a moot question.


Jerry Clark








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                      More On Six 'Unknowns' - Agermose

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:49:51 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:42:47 -0400
Subject: More On Six 'Unknowns' - Agermose


Source: The Sheboygan Press - Wisconsin

http://www.wisinfo.com/sheboyganpress/area/072202-2.html

Stig

***

Mon 22-July-2002

Reporter not sure what to think

By Mary Ann Holley

Sheboygan Press staff

**

In the skewed words of Richard M. Nixon, "I am not a kook."

Saturday, after packing my skepticism in my back pocket, I
covered UFO Daze anticipating far-fetched stories and tales of
extraterrestrial beings.

But after arriving at the old country bar on the edge of Long
Lake and seeing firsthand the amazing spheres of light hovering
high over the hillsides, I began to think anything is possible.

What were the strange amber lights that so methodically made
their appearance, lights that seemed to come by invitation to a
waiting crowd pumped up by stories of UFOs and alien beings?

As one observer said: If it was a hoax, it was a good one.

Fireworks don't hover for 15 minutes. Planes and helicopters
make noise. The lights were too high and too sporadic to be part
of the old lanterns-on-a-clothesline theory.

I've always had an eye for the unusual and appreciate a good
story, but when I see things that have no real explanation, it's
a strange twist. I attended the event with an editor and a
former editor of The Press -which should verify my sanity. They,
too, saw the glowing lights.

After the sighting, one woman was weakened by the experience.
Another sobbed for more than an hour, lamenting that the UFOs
had come for her. Another said she was having a flashback from
an earlier abduction.

Most of all, everyone questioned who, what, where and why - the
basics of good journalism.

But there were no answers.

These were people of all ages and all walks of life - Sharon
Moilanen of Sheboygan Falls, an employee at the Kohler Police
Department, writers of books and Heather O'Grady of Sheboygan, a
certified massage therapist.

John Hoppe of Sheboygan, director of UFO Wisconsin, investigated
the incident, taking off in his car to try to find the source of
the lights. He, too, questioned the incident, but too had no
definitive answers.

Sgt. Nick Evans of the Fond du Lac Sheriff's Department said
there were no reports of strange lights Saturday night.

What's your theory? Do you think there are extraterrestrial
beings flying in our night skies? Are they living among us? Are
there people with such skill and money to pull off such an
amazing prank? Just what were the six strange lights in the sky?

Send your comments to me at 632 Center Ave., Sheboygan WI 53081;
or e-mail to Mholley@smgpo.gannett.com.

**

Copyright =A92001 The Sheboygan Press. All Rights Reserved.








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                          Filer's Files # 30 - 2002

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:29:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:45:45 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files # 30 - 2002


FILER'S FILES #30-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
July 24, 2002,  Majorstar@aol.com. Webmaster: NUFORC MONTHLY
Chuck Warren,  http://.www.filersfiles.com

UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE: Cosmonauts claim extraterrestrials visit
Earth, In 1952, alien armada flew over Washington, DC, Flying
triangle seen in New York, Virginia policeman sees UFO,
Wisconsin lights, Arizona red strobe lights, Nevada flying
triangle, California cigars and lights, Canadian dark UFO, Chile
UFO, Uruguay and Argentina's mutilations continue, Slovakia crop
circles, Turkey military briefing, South Africa carries these
files, and Philippine sighting.  Space Shuttle anomalous images
turns out to be reflections.

PERSEID METEORS HEADED THIS WAY

This weekend Earth will enter the outskirts of a cloud of comet
debris marking the beginning of the annual Perseid meteor
shower, which peaks on August 12th and 13th. The Perseids are
one of the year's most inviting shows. Thanks to NASA
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/19jul_perseids.htm

WATCH OUT FOR SPACESHIPS -- The International Space Station and
friends continue to fly above Earth and you might get a glimpse.
For locations and time see:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/11jun_spaceship.htm)

CORRECTION TO SHUTTLE CHASED BY DIAMONDS

In Filer's Files #28, we reported that on June 8, 2002, at about
5 :35 PM, CDT, as the STS 111 Shuttle Endeavor was crossing the
Atlantic, at the lower right part of the screen, four to six
anomalous lights in a diamond shaped moved across the video
screen.  NASA investigated the lights and announced that the
Multi Purpose Logistics Module (MPLM) used for supplying the
International Space Station has highly reflective tape on its
grappling points.  Lights shinning on the circular reflective
tape combined with camera movement made it appear that anomalous
lights were moving across the video screen.  These reflections
at first stumped several of the PROVE experts and myself.  I
agree with NASA's assessment that we were looking at the light
reflections on the tape rather than objects in space.  However,
this explanation does not fit for hundreds of other moving
objects in space and our atmosphere.

Jeff Challender, Dr. Oren Swearingen, and David Sereda have put
together videos of hundreds of unidentified anomalous objects in
space that astronauts and cosmonauts have privately
acknowledged.  Russian cosmonauts are much more willing to
discuss their own sightings than our own astronauts.

COSMONAUTS SAW FLYING XMAS TREE AND SPACE SHIP

GENNADIJ STREKHALOV aboard the MIR Space Station says, "On the
last two flights I saw something. During the flight of 1990, I
called Gennadij Manakov, our commander: "Come to the porthole.
Unfortunately, but this is typical, we did not manage to put a
film in the camera quickly enough to film it." We looked on
Newfoundland and the atmosphere was completely clear. And
suddenly a kind of sphere appeared. I want to compare it with a
Christmas tree decoration, beautiful, shiny, glittering. I saw
it for ten seconds. The sphere appeared in the same way as it
disappeared again. What it was, what size it had, I don't know.
There was nothing I could compare it with. I was like struck by
lightning by this phenomenon. It was a perfect sphere,
glittering like a Christmas tree decoration. I reported to the
Mission Control Center, but I did not say that I have seen a
UFO. I said I saw a kind of unusual phenomenon. I had to be
careful with the choice of my words. I don't want someone to
speculate too much or quote me wrong.

COSMONAUT VICTOR AFANASYEV'S DRAWING of an elongated flying
triangle UFO seen flying formation in April 1979, with his space
vehicle website is on my website.  Victor states, "I think we
are not alone, something of extraterrestrial origin has visited
Earth."  The alien craft turned toward ours, followed us and
flew formation 25 to 29 meters away.  We photographed the
metallic engineering structure that was and 40 meters long.  The
film was later confiscated.  See his drawing at
http://www.filersfiles.com/news/images.php?id=3D69

ALIEN ARMADA OVER WASHINGTON DC

Washington Post staff writer Peter Carlson reports on Sunday
that, In the control tower at Washington National Airport, Ed
Nugent saw seven pale violet blips on his radar screen.  What
were they?  Not planes -- at least not any planes that were
supposed to be there.  He summoned his boss, Harry G. Barnes,
the head of National's air traffic controllers. "Here's a fleet
of flying saucers for you," Nugent said, half-joking.  Upstairs,
in the tower's glass-enclosed top floor, controller Joe Zacko
saw a strange blip streaking across his radar screen. It wasn't
a bird. It wasn't a plane. What was it? He looked out the window
and spotted a bright light hovering in the sky. He turned to his
partner, Howard Cocklin, who was sitting three feet away.  "Look
at that bright light," Zacko said. "If you believe in flying
saucers, that could sure be one."  And then the light took off,
zooming away at an incredible speed.  "Did you see that?"
Cocklin remembers saying. "What the hell was that?"

It was Saturday night, July 19, 1952, fifty years ago -- one of
the most famous dates in the bizarre history of UFOs.  Before
the night was over, a pilot reported seeing unexplained objects,
radar at two local Air Force bases -- Andrews and Bolling --
picked up the UFOs, and two Air Force F-94 jets streaked over
Washington, searching for flying saucers.  Then, a week later,
it happened all over again -- more UFOs on the radar screen,
more jets scrambled over Washington. Across America, the story
of jets chasing UFOs over the White House knocked the Korean War
and the presidential campaign off the front pages of newspapers.
" 'Saucer' Outran Jet, Pilot Reveals," read the banner headline
in The Washington Post.  "JETS CHASE D.C. SKY GHOSTS," screamed
the New York Daily News.  "AERIAL WHATZITS BUZZ D.C. AGAIN!"
shouted the Washington Daily News.  As rumors spread, President
Truman demanded to know what was flying over his house. Soon the
federal government was fighting the UFOs with the most powerful
weapons in the Washington arsenal -- bureaucracy, obfuscation
and gobbledygook.  That seemed to work. The UFOs never returned.
Snip.

Dr. Bruce Maccabee isn't laughing. "One thing you have to
understand: This is serious business," he says. "The skeptics
like to make fun of us."  Maccabee, 60, is a civilian physicist
for the Navy and a prominent UFO believer.  Maccabee buttresses
his argument with an official government report. It's called
"Quantitative Aspects of Mirages" and it was issued by the Air
Force in 1969.  "They proved in their own study that there
wasn't enough temperature inversion to cause this effect," he
says. "The Washington sightings cannot be explained as a radar
mirage. "In the '70s, he filed the Freedom of Information Act
request that led to the release of the FBI's file on UFOs. The
file was called "Security Matter X" -- "the real X-Files," he
says.  Maccabee believes there were "solid objects" in the air
over Washington 50 years ago. "And I think those solid objects
were not made by us," he says. "And by us, I mean human beings."
After 50 years, the debate over the Washington UFOs goes on and
on.  "You have dueling experts and dueling reports," says Kevin
D. Randle, author of "Invasion Washington: UFOs Over the
Capitol," a new book on the 1952 sightings. "One expert says it
was temperature inversion.  Another says it wasn't.  In that
situation, you have to refer back to the air traffic controllers
and the pilots who actually saw the objects." Former controller
Howard Cocklin is still convinced that he saw an object over
National that night.  "I saw it on the screen and out the
window," he says.  "It was a whitish-blue object.  Not a light -
- a solid form.  An object. A saucer-shaped object."  Now 83 and
retired, Cocklin says he never saw anything like that saucer --
not before, not since.  "It just went away," he says, sitting in
an armchair in his Fairfax living room. "Where did it go? Why
don't people see these things today? Why 50 years ago?"  Thanks
to Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

SETI HEAD SAYS ALIENS COULD BE HERE

SETI director Jill Tartar has told Space.com that she believes
extraterrestrials could be present in our solar system.  Her
comments were made in a discussion about Fermi's Paradox, which
states that, if there are extraterrestrials in the galaxy, then
they must have colonized it.  But there is no evidence of their
presence here, therefore the implication is that they don't
exist.  Tartar says, "I would claim that we don't know that.
We've so poorly explored even the local neighborhood of our
solar system that there could well be probes, artifacts, even
large, slow ships within our solar system that we wouldn't have
detected yet.  It's possible that there could be, in fact,
within our solar system some evidence of an extraterrestrial
technology. They may be here."  Ms. Tartar also said that, she
doesn't believe that they're "abducting Aunt Sally," but then
makes the surprising comment that there have been attempts to
find ships that might be on long-term station in our solar
system at points of minimal gravity, using both reflected light
and radar observation.  There are many places that large ships
could be located that would be very difficult for us to detect,
such as in the asteroid belt or the rings of Saturn.  They could
be virtually indistinguishable from local objects if hidden in
such places.  Tartar's comments reflect an increasing openness
among astronomers to the idea that an extraterrestrial presence
in our solar system isn't impossible.  This is because the
assumptions in Drake's Equation, which basically says that
extraterrestrial life would be extremely rare, are being called
into question by the large number of planets that are being
discovered orbiting other stars.  Thanks to Spacecom.  -

Editor's Note: Enrico Firmi was at Los Alamos where UFOs were
being sighted almost daily, when he is said to have asked the
question in the late 1940s, "Where are they?  His reasoning was
that if technically advanced extraterrestrial civilizations are
prevalent, some of them ought to migrate to other star systems
colonizing new planets as they go. In a million years they could
colonize an entire galaxy.

NEW YORK FLYING TRIANGLE SQUARE SHAPED OBJECTS

SELDEN -- On June 27, 2002, at 10:25 PM, the witness went
outside to get something out of his car, and noticed there were
four lights shaped as a circle in the sky.  It was flying in
some kind of formation.  He ran inside got his video camera and
recorded about three minutes of footage.  The flying triangle
had four bright lights in the sky.  It was maybe a couple of
football fields away on a 90 degree angle.  They were moving in
a fashion of a triangle or a square, they were close enough to
illuminate the street I was standing on.  I'm still trying to
give some kind of reason for this, but I don't know how they
just disappeared after three minutes without a trace.  I'm in
shock.  My video camera died in middle of taping and it was not
the batteries that were fully charged.  I'm scared and shocked.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC

VIRGINIA POLICEMAN SEES UFO

BERRYVILLE -- The witness was standing on the front porch on
June 29, 2002, talking on the phone when a bright kind of
fluorescent light flew over the house.  It flew from the back
and it went halfway out to my yard.  It was about 10 PM, dark
outside and I really freaked out.  It was dead silent -- that's
what is so weird.  Everything was lit up for about ten seconds
and then it was gone.  The light flew in a straight line --
really weird!  My house is kind of secluded with lots of land
around it.  This was like a scene from a science fiction movie
and I don't even like those kind of movies!  I know what I saw
and I have never believed in UFO's.

MOUNTAINS -- On July 15, 2002, my husband a police officer went
to check on our cabin in Western Virginia.  He was on the
balcony looking out through the woods and spotted a very white
ball of light clicking on and off and moving around very fast.
It was not a firefly as it was too big, but more the size of a
flashlight.  At night out there you can hear every little noise
so if it had been a person he would have seen them moving and
heard the crunch of the gravel under their feet.  Finally the
object just went away very fast...maybe it clicked off.  He is
not sure about the ending. So since the ending was vague, I
decided to check him and see if there was any new marks on his
body.  Sure enough he has a brand new scar, very dark in color
shaped like a boomerang right above his ankle. He can't explain
how he got this. He thinks it is an old injury that has suddenly
changed color and become prominent again? I don't buy that, but
that is his story.  Pam
Earthchanges_discussion_prep_planetx@yahoogroups.com

SOUTH CAROLINA FAST MOVING LIGHT

TRAVELERS REST -- The witnesses walked out on the back porch at
10:00 PM to watch the thunder storms and heat lighting on June
30, 2002.  To the northwest they could see a bright light
reddish in color almost like the color red star in Orion.  The
witness states, "I observed it for a while thinking it maybe was
a plane, but after a while I noticed no movement.  I could see
local aircraft moving in and out of cloud cover, but this object
was just hovering there.  I used our binoculars and the object
moved very fast up and down leaving light trails behind it.  My
girlfriend claims they return every summer.  It had to be a UFO.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director  NUFORC

MICHIGAN LIGHT FOLLOWS FAMILY

KALAMAZOO TO MUSKEGON -- On June 2,,2002, the witness reports,
"We were driving home and when got to Kalamazoo at 9:30 PM, I
noticed a UFO in the western sky with lights all over it.
Although it was pretty far up, the lights looked red, orange,
white and a bluish-green color.  It looked like other small
craft were coming out of it or beams of light were shooting off.
It pretty much stayed with us for about two hours. As we neared
Muskegon it looked as though it was going towards Lake Michigan,
it got smaller and disappeared.  The next night from my father's
house in North Muskegon, we spotted the same object near the
moon.  My father said, "He had seen two of the same type 30
years ago.  One of them shot a laser and hit the other one, and
then they both disappeared."  The third night, the UFO just
twirled around and moved a little.  Later, we saw four of them
through the telescope that had three circular things underneath
twirling clockwise, almost like balls of fire.  On June 26, we
drove to Lake Michigan and saw two lights just over the water.
Thanks to Peter Davenport

WISCONSIN UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

MILWAUKEE -- Bruce S says, "I was at a cookout at my friends
house on July 14, 2002, and we were helping my buddies daughter
track down jets in the sky.  At around 5:45 P.M. (it was sunny
and clear) my cousin saw a jet and pointed it out to the child.
He then stated to me, " What's that next to the jet?" I looked
and I figured it was Venus or a new supernova or something.  We
argued back and forth whether or not the thing was moving, and
eventually it started to move.  I kept track of it for 2-3 min.
and watched it slowly fade away. Now I know well enough that you
cannot see "normal" stars in clear daylight, I know what a plane
looks like and it definitely was no bird.  There were 3 other
witnesses also. The object looked like a normal white star, with
no pulsing. It's distance was very, very high. It's motion was
very slow, with a slow fade.  Thanks to UFOWisconsin
http://www.ufowisconsin.com

ARIZONA STROBE LIGHT

PHOENIX -- On June 16, 2002, Ken Cohagen I walked out side a
little after 9 PM, and saw a bright star-like object moving east
across the sky.  It didn't appear to be a conventional aircraft
as there were no blinking marker lights visible.  It flew along
the same flight path and altitude as the commercial aircraft.
At first I thought it could be a satellite but as the object
passed through Orion's belt, its light intensified for a few
seconds.  The object continued on for several seconds while
becoming dimmer and seemed to disappear.  A minute later a
flashing red strobe light appeared in the exact spot that the
original object vanished from.  The object reversed its course
and traveled back in the exact flight path it had taken before.
Within a few minutes I lost sight of the object in the smoggy
haze.  The event lasted 5 minutes.  Thanks to  Ken Cohagen
wile.e.cohagen@juno.com

NEVADA FLYING TRIANGLE

RACHEL -- Ike Bishop writes, "The sightings were incredible, we
saw the "Black Triangle" three consecutive nights.  The first
night the sighting lasted for 1 1/2 hours, so got a good look at
it.  I am sure it came from 51 or was destined there as we saw
it rise from the area of S-4 on the third night. The craft
looked to be much larger than the reported 600 feet in width.
We estimated it to be closer to a half mile in width as it
filled some of the familiar saddles of the mountains as it
passed through.  The thing moved very slowly, each night, and
the technology must be incredible as there is no sound at all.
We were three to four miles from the craft.  The silver and blue
corona of flashes make it difficult to photograph, but we did
get video, as did the CBS crew I was there with.  The other two
sightings were interesting.  One was a silver ball 30 to 40 feet
in diameter which moved through the valley in daylight. The
other was the so called "fastmover" which is being tested in the
valley.  It came directly over our pickup at about 3000 feet on
its approach to land at Groom.  It was sort of oval in shape
from the bottom and had a V shaped tail section similar to the
"Pumpkinseed craft." It had an orange glow on the bottom, and a
blue flame from the exhausts.  It was quite noisy, similar to
the Stealth Fighter.  We have seen it before in the valley at
about 35,000 feet or higher but could see only vapor trail at
that point.  It is extremely fast. Thanks to Ike Bishop Idaho
MUFON State director, ibishop10@hotmail.com.

CALIFORNIA CIGARS, DIVING OVOID,

CLAREMONT -- Two distant three-sectioned cigar-shaped white UFOs
were observed on June 23, 2002, around sunset.  Two witnesses
observed two very distant UFOs about 65 degrees above the
northern horizon.  They were cigar-shaped to the naked eye, but
with binoculars they could be seen to have three sections.  They
were white, as seen in reflected sunlight and were a little
smaller than a high-altitude jet and they drifted very slowly
east.  At one point a plane approached one of the objects and
flew in its vicinity for several minutes.  Finally the objects
themselves became fainter and disappeared from view.

MARTINEZ -- An exceptionally credible witness observed a large
glowing ovoid at 2:25 AM, that descended rapidly on June 29,
2002.  It descended from the south at a 35 degree angle and
disappeared behind the ridge west of town.  It was a glowing
yellow in color and was roughly ovoid in shape and the size of
my little finger nail held at arm's length.  I got the
impression that it was a large object about five miles away
before disappearing behind the ridge.  I would be interested in
knowing if any other San Francisco Bay Area residents saw this
object?

NAPA -- I saw three silver orbs in color apparently reflecting
sunlight on June 29, 2002, moving swiftly across the sky.  The
first was not as bright but the second and third ones were very
bright but small.  They appeared to be very high in the
atmosphere and changed directions very quickly. I did not see
all three orbs at the same time, it may have been one Orb
crisscrossing.

LOS ANGELES -- An antique dealer was sitting in a friends home
on Crestview Drive at the very top of the Santa Monica Mountain
Range on June 29, 2002.  He noticed an orange colored cone
shaped object slowly pulsating moving west to south around 3:45
AM near a large Radio tower.  The witness states, "I was looking
off to the west and a cone shaped bright orange to red light
appeared to turn in a right to left motion.  I was looking a
half mile away toward a hillside that is undeveloped.  It moved
to the left four car lengths and flew around for twenty minutes.
Thanks to  NUFORC

CANADA STINGRAY SPHERE

WEST VANCOUVER, BC -- On June 29, 2002, stingray shaped sphere
glided in from the northeast at 7:05 AM.  Witnesses said, "At
first, we thought it was a piece of four feet square plastic in
the shape of a white sting ray fish.  It passed in front of our
apartment and swooped down over the water to approximately 100
feet for about ten seconds.  Then it climbed towards the
northwest and disappeared into the clouds about 2/3 miles away.
While I watched, my girlfriend saw it through the binoculars,
and said it was gray/black on one side.  We called the West
Vancouver Police and reported the object=3D.  There was no wind.

CHILE: UFO BUZZING CAUSES SENSATION

VILLARICA -- El "Diario Austral" de La Arucan=ED reports on July
10, 2002, dozens of families saw a UFO over the city.  In the
control booth of Radio Apumanque, announcer Patricio Castillo,
was playing music when at 21:15 hours, when the station's phone
began to ring.  The radio controller heard the voice of his
coworker Pilar Castillo, asking him to look out the window
because there was a very strange object in the sky.  Patricio
saw the strange object in the dark and rainy winter night. "I
looked and I saw a luminous object hovering with three red
lights and then it made a very swift movement.  I looked away to
play a song and it was gone," he explained.

The object was seen from several points of the Lake Region by
hundreds of people.  Alberto Sandoval of Radio Pianisima, while
playing ranchero songs was also notified about the UFOs.  He
grabbed his camera and managed to film a luminous sphere.
Thanks to  Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Translation (C) 2002 and lornis1@juno.com
http://www.diarioaustral.cl/

URUGUAY: SHEEP FOUND WITH MUTILATIONS

SALTO -- Diario "El Argentino" (Gualeguaych=FA-Entre R=EDos) Sunday,
July 14, 2002, reports A resident of Salto is still astonished
after finding mutilated sheep.  Two sheep were found dead on the
property of Walter Antonio Remedi, located at Colonia Gestido.
The man found a dead sheep with mutilations with missing an ear,
an eye, the tongue and all of the flesh on the left side of the
head.  A swath of black fur and a lump of fat were found at its
side, and 500 meters away, a second dead sheep was found with
similar injuries.  There were no signs of spilled blood.  Thanks
to Scott  Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology and
.lornis1@juno.com

BOVINES FOUND IN WATER TANK IN ARGENTINA

SUCO -- El Diario News reports, that on June 28, 2002, very near
the border with San Luis Province a well-respected livestock
producer found 19 dead animals within an Australian-type water
tank.  These tanks are steel-sided, sheet metal with a conical
cap.  Nine of the bovines were dead, according to subsequent
medical-veterinarian examinations due to asphyxiation through
immersion.  The rest were alive, but affected by the low
temperatures and were near dead due to freezing.  The news was
confirmed by police officials of Regional Unit 7, headquartered
at Rio Cuarto.  What no one can explain is how the 19 animals
could have entered the enormous water tank, bearing in mind that
they first had to cross an electric drover (sic), then a 1.50
meter tall fence, and finally, "jump" over the tank wall.
Later, farmhands found a mutilated cow that had given birth to a
calf.  The cow was stressed showing burns and precise incisions
in different parts of her carcass, as though experts had deftly
used a special scalpel.  These cases, according Dr. Cumin,  have
been investigated from the onset by veterinarians from the
National University of Rio Cuarto.  Ufologists posited the
challenging possibility that teleportation occurred moving the
19 animals of large size and weight from their cow pen into the
tank. Government authorities who have been blaming red-muzzled
mice for the mutilations now must explain how the mice carried
the bovines into the tank.

SALLIQUELO -- Headlines announced new animal mutilations, "Mouse
nowhere to be seen." Aniceto Fern=E1ndez's calf was found with
incisions identical to other mutilations on a farm adjacent to
his own?  The owner believed that the animal fled or was carried
to the neighboring property.  The phenomenon continues with
reports of alien creatures being spotted near mutilations.

MISSION LAISH -- Livestock producer Luis Fernandez visited the
Colonia Yata=ED Police Barracks to report nine more cattle
mutilations in his field that holds 1400 animals bring the total
to 21 in the last 60 days. The animals' hides had a total lack
of coloration bordering on the transparent while normal hides
are opaque and hard.  The mutilated cows were brought in to feed
the dogs who are used to eating anything but they would not eat
the meat.  The meat had turned black, and "not even flies" came
close. Thanks to El Diario del Sur de Cordoba-Villa Maria
7/9/02.

SLOVAKIA CROP CIRCLES AND UFO ABOVE ATOMIC PLANT

NITRA-DRAZOVICE -- Pravda reports the discovery of three large
crop circles by glider pilots engaged in an international
competition.  These are the first pictograms since 2000.
According to expert Miroslav Karlik, these crop circles are not
faked and would not have been found except for the pilots.
"Rings with diameters of 15.5 meters, 7.40 meters, and 6.30
meters connected via half-meter wide paths were visible only
from a bird's eye perspective. No curious crowds had trampled
them, and so they could be examined" said Karlik.  Had it not
been, nobody would have seen it.  The crop pictogram did not
exhibit any increased radiation, which has been typical of most
crop circles in foreign countries.  Ufologists report pictograms
are an undeciphered messages from extraterrestrials.   Karlik
says nearly 80 percent of sightings are tied to strategic
objects, such as power plants.  Six eyewitnesses and the
director of the UFO Club of Trnava says, "We saw a slow-moving
triangle with red lights that flew to the electrical plant and
then returned seven times. Thanks to Farshores and Nitra
Radosovice 7/13/02.

TURKEY UFO BRIEFING FOR HIGH RANKING MILITARY OFFICERS

ISTANBUL -- On 5 June 2002, Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research
Center Chairman was invited to Foreign Languages Department at
Navy Headquarters to give a lecture to 70+ high ranking
officers.  During the conference, written and visual evidence
was presented to Navy and Air Force officers. The Turkish
military has been studying the UFO cases for many years, but due
to their secrecy policies, UFO truth had not being disclosed
openly to the public.  For this reason, military authorities
wanted lecture closed to the news media.  Despite Turkish
military secrecy, their cooperation is very positive for the
future of disclosure of the "UFO Reality" in Turkey. Also, an
interview with Haktan Akdogan is due to be published in the army
magazine "Skylight."  Thanks to Sirius UFO Space Sciences
Research Center and International UFO Museum.
http://www.siriusufo.org.

SOUTH AFRICA WILL SHARE DATA, CARRY FILER'S FILES

Cristo Louw writes, "Grrreat day to you!  Thanks for the
communication and I definitely do NOT mind sharing info.  I live
out my passion of sharing information of how extraterrestrials
have always been interacting with us humans and how we need to
become a conscious member in our galactic family.  My
motivations are akin to your "Disclosure Project" and to obtain
credible witnesses.  You're most welcome to use anything on my
site.

PRETORIA -- On June 30, 2002,  Chris Barkhuizen spotted a silver
disk approached at a speed five times faster than commercial
jets at 4 PM. Thanks to SAUFOR (South Africa's UFO Resource)
http://www.geocities.com/saufor/

PHILIPPINES DAYLIGHT DISC

MINDANAO -- On June 28, 2002, at 1:30 PM, Eleazar H. Allen and
his fellow workers at the Dole Plantation in Polomolok, saw a
bright gleam and he reports, "We saw it was coming from the
south and was about the size of an A-320 Airbus without wings,
approaching at high speed for at least five seconds.  Then it
abruptly backed away at a speed ten times faster until it was
gone."  He added that the UFO "was silvery with metal strips
along the back, like a wingless jumbo jet.  It was approaching
at about 150 miles per hour and departing at ten times that
speed.  Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 7, #28, 7/9/02 Editor: Joseph
Trainor  http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

NASA, AND IT'S SPACE ENCOUNTERS

Jeff Challender has released the new video "What Is the Truth?".
The second video examining NASA and its space encounters with
102 anomalous objects.    These events were culled from 1400+
hours raw footage of ten live Shuttle flight broadcasts between
Oct. 2000 and April 2002.  please specify  vhs ($25), or dvd
($30).  Available in ntsc, or pal.  Send orders to: Jeff
Challender 2768 Mendel Way Sacramento, CA 95833-2011

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN HIRING A REAL ESTATE AGENT! Learn how
you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs.  To
get a free copy of this report e-mail me at  Majorstar@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL.  A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com.  Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post the complete files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue that the item appeared.  These reports
and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.
Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential.  CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer












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   Jul > Jul 24

                  Hundreds Of ET Researchers In Bonnybridge

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:34:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:47:27 -0400
Subject: Hundreds Of ET Researchers In Bonnybridge


Source: Glasgow Sunday Mail, July 21, 2002

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/page.cfm?objectid=12050784&method=full&siteid=8
6024

Stig

***

UFO HUNTERS FLY IN

**

Hundreds of alien hunters from all over the world will meet
in Scotland's UFO capital this week.

The largest gathering of extra-terrestrial researchers, in
Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, will stage the first National
Skywatch. Investigators from more than 1000 UFO groups will
meet in the town, hoping for a sighting of alien spacecraft.

Meanwhile, local councillor Billy Buchanan is preparing to
fly to America to meet the mayor of Roswell. Buchanan hopes
to twin Bonnybridge with the New Mexico town, the supposed
site of the first UFO landing in 1947.

Councillor Buchanan, who claims to have spotted a dozen UFOs,
said: "There are a lot of disbelievers, but they cannot find
explanations for all the sightings."

**








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:42:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:50:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:02:04 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Bob,

 >Also look at Loftus's book 'Eyewitness Testimony' for further
 >examples of the fallibility of memory.

Surely you are aware that Loftus, though often cited by
debunkers, is hardly the last word on this subject. Her work
has its share of critics and has sparked its own controversies.
No one has a monopoly on truth here.

 >Without outside objective evidence, how can you ever be certain
 >whether the eyewitness testimony is correct.

Any more than you can be certain that it is incorrect. What I am
proposing is this:

People like Bob Young, hell-bent to reject any eyewitness
testimony that attests to something they don't like, ought to be
- if they're really serious and want to be seen as
intellectually honest - as measured and restrained in their
assertions as they demand those on the other side of the anomaly
debate to be.

The simple fact of the matter - known to all, apparently, but
anomalyphobes - is that just as eyewitness testimony can be
wrong, it can also be right, and we can learn much from it if we
exercise appropriate caution. You are no more entitled than
anybody else to sweeping, one-size-fits-all assertions on this
subject. Might I suggest a dose of modesty?

 >I would also point out that the arrest of the alleged
 >perpetrator in the recent abduction/murder was also assisted by
 >the independent reports of other children in the neighborhood
 >who apparently confirmed details of the 5-year old's account.

Hmmm... just as multiple witnesses have provided independent,
confirmatory testimony in any number of puzzling UFO sightings.
Maybe you're learning.

For a sky clear of pelicans,

Jerry Clark








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   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:03:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 01:42:12 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Run-on Case

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:49:50 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Run-on Case

 >I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

It is totally unreliable only when it attests to something
extraordinary and otherwise resistant to explanation (such as a
close encounter with a daylight disc); then you can't trust
"anecdotal testimony" - fill in Loftus citation here. But that
same anecdotal testimony becomes amazingly accurate when
witnesses are describing something that can be explained as an
IFO from the description.

The usual pelican logic, in other words. Since UFOs don't exist,
witnesses are mistaken by definition... except when they're
right by definition, as when they see IFOs. Where would pelicans
be without their tautologies?


For a sky clear of pelicans,

Jerry Clark








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                Re: Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:39:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:11:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday? - Velez


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:13 -0400
 >Subject: Argentine Mouse Takes a Holiday?

 >SOURCE: Diario "El Nuevo Dia" (Coronel Suarez, Prov. of Buenos Aires)
 >DATE: July 18, 2002

 >MOUSE TAKES A HOLIDAY?

 >Perhaps to promote tourism, perhaps for reasons unknown--the
 >fact remains that the red-muzzled mice have gotten their winter
 >break early this year.

 >The voracious rodents, which according to SENASA are responsible
 >for the bovine mutilations which have caused such commotion
 >among the population, have not been active for a while and the
 >only explanation is that they are on winter recess.

<snip>

Hi Scott,

I'm confused. (Nothing new! :)  Isn't SENASA the same group who
first claimed that all the mutilations were being performed by a
group of "rogue surgeons?" Now they are claiming it was done by
rogue red faced mice.

Which one is it; rogue surgeons or rogue mice?  <vbg>

Their first explanation reminds me of the old Monty Python movie
where; a man answers a knock at his door. The callers turns out
to be two surgeons who have come to collect his liver because he
signed an organ donor card. They proceed to knock him down onto
his bed, excise his liver, one of them makes a date with the
man's wife, and then they leave.  :)

Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations for
disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Jul > Jul 25

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:42:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:43:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:50 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:19:21 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>In the course of the Satanic abuse panic (which has been covered
 >>in a number of article in Magonia) children have given vivid
 >>eyewitness accounts of being sexually abused in spaceships,
 >>seeing their friends being fed to sharks in swimming pools, and
 >>other absurd and outrageous claims. Of course, when these
 >>allegations have been investigated, not a shred of evidence has
 >>been found for them. Unfortunately, this has not prevented some
 >>people being imprisoned on these uncorroborated claims.

 >If you've read the relevant literature, you'd know that a whole
 >different dynamic is involved here, prominently the interference
 >and coaching of children by "recovered memory" therapists, often
 >of Christian fundamentalist backgrounds, who plant wild ideas
 >into the minds of impressionable little kids (and sometimes
 >adults).

I disagree. I don't think this issue has anything to do with
memory at all. I think it's rather a testament to the incredible
naivity of so many therapists and academic psychologists who
have exactly zero idea of how children think. To me what all
this illustrates is that if you create ludicrous situations and
ask kids stupid questions, the kids will probably assume you're
an idiot and tell you a load of old tosh.

On the other hand, I can tell you where to find an absolutely
classic account of Satanic ritual abuse, including a vivid
description of being roasted over a fire by devils. You can find
it in the book "The Truth in the Light" by Peter and Elizabeth
Fenwick and it's in the chapter on "hellish near death
experiences".  Just because an event does not correspond to
physical reality does not automatically imply that it's a "false
memory".

Cathy








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:50:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:45:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:02:04 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Hi Bob

Wow, is this my lucky day or what? False memory syndrome
already. I've only been on this List a few weeks and already my
favorite topic has come up.

 >The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association
 >has warned that, "It is not known how to distinguish, with
 >complete accuracy, memories based on true events from those
 >derived from other sources..... Memories also can be
 >significantly influenced by a trusted person (e.g., therapists,
 >parent involved in a custody dispute) who suggests abuse as an
 >explanation for symptoms/problems, despite initial lack of
 >memory of such abuse. It has also been shown that repeated
 >questioning may lead individuals to report memories of events
 >that never occurred." (American Psychiatric Association,
 >Statement on Memories of Sexual Abuse News Release, Dec. 12,
 >1993. American Psychiatric Association, Washington, D.C.)

Before we get carried away, here's a link to Kenneth Pope's award
acceptance address to the American Psychological Association on
this very subject.

http://www.kspope.com/memory.shtml

You might like to compare this with Elizabeth Loftus's own
acceptance address, which I can forward to anyone privately if
they're interested - and which I have also deconstructed using
techniques provided by the Institute of Propaganda Analysis.

You might also like to take a look at Christine Courtois'
"Recollections of Sexual Abuse: Treatment Principles and
Guidelines" (Norton 1999) - which contains guidelines from many
professional organizations around the world, many of which are
considerably less credulous about the prevalence of "false
memories" than the APA statement.

 >And also not, Loftus, E.F. & Pickrell, J.E. (1995) The
 >formation of false memories. Psychiatric Annals, 25, 720-725.

 >"Literally thousands of studies have documented how our memories
 >can be disrupted by things that we experienced earlier
 >(proactive interference) or things that we experienced later
 >(retroactive interference)..... The new, post-event information
 >often becomes incorporated into the recollection, supplementing
 >or altering it, sometimes in dramatic ways.....

Unfortunately most of these "thousands of studies" turn out to
be quite astonishingly banal. By far the vast majority of them
deal with wordlists in laboratory settings which don't even get
as far as paying lip service to the issue of ecological
validity. These are the sorts of memory errors which happen when
you find you've forgotten your shopping list and can't remember
what was on it, and so end up buying two cans of chopped
tomatoes instead of three cans of peeled plum tomatoes.  Even
Loftus' own much-hyped studies deal almost exclusively with the
substitution of irrelevant background detail.  Rocket science it
isn't.

In any case, the statistical design of experimental psychology
is intrinsically unfalsifiable - it is actually not possible,
even in principle, to obtain and publish a systematic pattern of
negative results. This means that if you set up an experiment to
test for "false memory" or "eye witness error" and do it often
enough, you're certain to end up with positive results
eventually through accumulated noise, bias, demand
characteristics and experimental error alone.

Put it all together and you end up with a situation in which
most of the alleged experimental evidence for unreliability in
human memory can probably be attributed to demand bias, and what
is left is probably just substitution of background detail in
memories which, to that particular human subject, were pretty
trivial.

 >In some experiments the deficits in memory performance following
 >receipt of misinformation have been dramatic, with performance
 >differences as large as 30 or 40%, and;

In some shopping trips my deficits in memory performance have
been dramatic, I have left my shopping list at home and have
forgotten as much as 30 or 40% of what was on it.

 >"...misleading post-event information can alter a person's
 >recollection in a powerful ways, even leading to the creation of
 >false memories of objects that never in fact existed." Loftus,
 >E.F. & Pickrell, J.E. (1995) The formation of false memories.
 >Psychiatric Annals, 25, 720-725.

What Loftus claims her research says and what it actually
demonstrates are two very different things. One cognitive
psychologist doth not an eternal verity make. For heaven's sake,
exercise some discernment already.

 >Also look at Loftus's book 'Eyewitness Testimony' for further
 >examples of the fallibility of memory.

Look also at the book "Recovered Memories and False Memories"
(Ed Martin Conway, OUP 1997) for further details of the
fallibility of Loftus' hype.

Cognitive psychology, by the way, is the only supposedly "hard
science" I know of where it's possible to obtain a professorship
and at the same time be mathematically completely illiterate.
  If you want to hear some real muddled thinking, circular
reasoning and breathtaking illogic, don't bother chasing UFO
researchers - spend a few months as a research assistant on a
cognitive psychology project.

Cathy








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   Jul > Jul 25

              Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Novak

From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:48:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Novak


 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:42:05 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >In addition, and most importantly, they were
 >equipped with SCR-268 Radar searchlight directors which found
 >and tracked aerial targets by means of a radio echo.....
 >It supplied a continuous flow of data
 >which located aircraft positively.

It should be noted that the early radar systems, of which 268's
were the first, were very innacurate and relied upon multiple
confirmations for targeting.

"American AAA radar was first deployed in the North African and
Italian campaigns, primarily for target tracking in conjunction
with searchlights. These "gun-laying" sets were very primitive
by today's standards. There was one cathode ray tube to show the
distance a target was from the set, and a second to help
pinpoint the direction. Both were inaccurate; it really took the
plots from two or more sets to estimate where the target was,
and guess the number of planes, and their altitude."

 >Since the first successful SCR-268 was built by the Signal Corps
 >in 1937, and given the top priority the airplane manufacturing
 >plants in the L.A. area garnered, (after the attack on Pearl
 >Harbor) I think it's safe to assume that the SCR-268 directed
 >searchlights were in place during the early morning hours of
 >February 25, 1942,

The first Radar guided searchlight sets were deployed in the
Italian and North African campaigns, not on the American
continent as mentioned in the above quote taken from:

http://www.skylighters.org/introduction/index.html#sl.

The west coast defenses were suffering a shortage of manpower
and equipment of which much equipment was outdated. This is why
the military was so concerned about the west coast and was
scrambling to send more troops and defenses much of which was
temporary in nature. There was still in use the sound and
binocular detection units at this time though it is not clear
just what was in use in Los Angeles although we do know what was
available was sparse and old.

Also, just as important here is the fact that aside from the
initial contacts radar made over the ocean, no further contacts
were reported after the first was lost before it made landfall.
Nothing was showing on radar as the military accounts show. And
no planes were spotted and confirmed. Therefore, the
searchlights systems most likely were operating on a visual
targeting system. You will note the references in the reports
mention the spotlights SEARCHING the sky. Not illuminatiing
targets. Nowhere, not even under the photo captions, does it
mention any object being found by the lights or illuminated by
them. And it is clearly stated that radar lost the target over
the ocean.

In an earlier posting Mr. Warren also states that it was a clear
night and no smoke was visible. This is also contradicted by the
military chronicles. It clearly states smoke and exploding
ordinance made visual confirmnations extremely difficult.

All of this is likely irrelevant besides. The LA photo
apparently is not altered and I humbly accept I was mistaken due
to the second photo's differences suggesting it may have been.
However, after viewing many similar photo's it appears the LA
pic is not unique. The appearance of the LA pic is similar to
others of the period in which nothing is known to have been in
the sky. I hope to have a compilation and comparison done soon
demonstrating this.

Thanks to Dwaine Sharpe for providing me with the extra info on
WW2 searchlights.








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   Jul > Jul 25

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:13:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:50:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:50 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:19:21 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -050

 >>>For a scholarly study of eyewitness testimony in cases of
 >>>anomalous experience, there is David Hufford's classic work,
 >>>which is harsh, specific, and empirical in its criticisms of
 >>>sloppy claims, as often as not buttressed by unexamined cultural
 >>>prejudices, of eyewitness unreliability. This is an area in
 >>>which debunkers as much as proponents need to be far more
 >>>careful than they have been in the past. The Runnion case should
 >>>serve as yet another cautionary tale to all who would dismiss
 >>>"anecdotal testimony" as inherently worthless.

 >>I don't really understand why Jerome Clark is bringing David
 >>Hufford in here, although I suppose it's inevitable that he
 >>would. After all, the great man is wheeled in as an authority
 >>figure to bolster any claim that Jerry seems to be making.

 >In case you haven't read his book, John,

I have read his book, Jerry, as you know full well. I was one of
the first people in the UFO field, certainly the first in
Britain, to review his book within this context. You will
recall, if you delve into your back-files of MUFOB (when you are
settled in your new home) that I gave it a very good review, and
pointed out that its importance lay in the fact that Hufford
demonstrated that witness accounts of anomalous events are
descriptions of actual experiences, and should be treated as
such, and not as some sort of literary device.

 >Hufford deals at great
 >length with the subject of how accurate witness testimony often
 >is, and how it can be used to define the nature and dynamics of
 >anomalous and seemingly anomalous experience. He mounts a
 >powerful argument against the pelicanist practice of claiming
 >that since you can't trust eyewitness testimony, you are free to
 >reinvent the witness' account (on the grounds that he or she was
 >clearly mistaken), change it into something you can explain, and
 >then "explain" what you've invented. Fortunately, the police who
 >investigated the case of Samantha Runnion knew better.

I think we've got a new species here, the 'Straw Pelican'. It's
like the Straw Man that Jerry constantly accuses others of
creating. Of course no-one says "because you can't trust
eyewitness testimony you are free to reinvent the witness's
account". But any description of an event, especially where it
is a controversion one like an abduction by aliens or an
abduction by criminals, requires other testimony and evidence
before it can be accepted as an objective fact.

 >>Let's get a few things clear about this case. The police
 >>arrested and charged the suspect only after the initial
 >>identification had been confirmed by DNA evidence which linked
 >>the suspect to the murdered girl. Little Sarah's eyewitness
 >>evidence was important in leading police to the suspect, but on
 >>its own would not have been enough to warrant an arrest.

 >You're really clutching at straws here. The five-year-old girl's
 >eyewitness testimony was right on target. It led police to the
 >suspect. You are trying to drop red herrings into the rhetorical
 >waters. The point remains: . Like it or not, pelicanist doctrine
 >notwithstanding, the testimony of a five-year-old girl almost
 >exactly described the kidnapper/murderer and his automobile.
 >That was the subject of the NYT piece, which you seem to be
 >trying to rewrite.

Yes, but the girl's description, on it's own, would be ripped to
shreds in court if the police did come up with further evidence,
such as the DNA match.

 >>In the course of the Satanic abuse panic (which has been covered
 >>in a number of article in Magonia) children have given vivid
 >>eyewitness accounts of being sexually abused in spaceships,
 >>seeing their friends being fed to sharks in swimming pools, and
 >>other absurd and outrageous claims. Of course, when these
 >>allegations have been investigated, not a shred of evidence has
 >>been found for them. Unfortunately, this has not prevented some
 >>people being imprisoned on these uncorroborated claims.

 >Incredible. Apples and oranges, or maybe, more accurately,
 >apples and elephants.

 >If you've read the relevant literature, you'd know that a whole
 >different dynamic is involved here, prominently the interference
 >and coaching of children by "recovered memory" therapists, often
 >of Christian fundamentalist backgrounds, who plant wild ideas
 >into the minds of impressionable little kids (and sometimes
 >adults). I'm surprised that you'd be dragging in such a feeble,
 >irrelevant argument here. Is the notion that eyewitness
 >testimony can be quite accurate _that_ threatening to the
 >fragile doctrine of the pelican?.

This may be the case in America. In Britain there are fewer
Christian fundamentalist therapists, and cases have arisen in
quite a different climate. And can you just stop meaningless
verbiage like "Is the notion that eyewitness testimony can be
quite accurate _that_ threatening to the fragile doctrine of the
pelican."? When did I or anyone say such a stupid thing? Stop
making things up!

 >>It's good that this little girl was able to give a good
 >>description of her friend's alleged attacker and the police were
 >>able to find further evidence which corroborated her story. But
 >>such definitive scientific corroboration seems to be missing in
 >>UFO reports.

 >Define "definitive scientific corroboration."

DNA

 >You apparently
 >believe there is a universal agreement on what that loaded term
 >means, though there is a whole, long history of science to
 >testify otherwise to the elusive quality of that concept.

We're not talking about the long elusive history of scientific
concepts, we're taliking about a routine and very reliable
forensic procedure. Stop waffling.

 >In any
 >event, your attempt to change the subject aside, the moral is
 >clear enough to the rest of us, I should think: eyewitness
 >testimony can be accurate indeed, and one dismisses it out of
 >hand at one's peril.

Eyewitness testimony can be accurate indeed, and one dismisses
it out of hand at one's peril. So plese give me one concrete
example where anyone has said otherwise.

 >>Incidently, isn't it just a couple of days ago that Jerry was
 >>criticising me for making analogies between the evidence
 >>involved in UFO cases and the sort of forensic evidence needed
 >>in court case?

 >Huh? With this one, the straw disappears from the pelican's
 >clasp and sails off into the ether. I am not talking about a
 >court case, unless I've missed something or I'm not as psychic
 >as you are. (In any event, there is no court case involved here.
 >The suspect hasn't gone on trial and won't go for many months.)

I presume that the man arrested for murdering the little girl
will be tried in a court of law? Or will he just be sent to a
prison camp in Cuba without the neccessity for such fripperies?

It's not me who started making analogies between UFO evidence
and forensic evidence, but quite a few people have in the past,
on this list. Sort it out with them.

 >I am talking about a case in which eyewitness testimony was
 >strikingly accurate -- something that, according to pelicanist
 >doctrine, is not supposed to happen.
 >>Somehow the words "pot",
 >"kettle" and "black" come to mind.

 >Somehow the phrases "logical vacuum," "incoherent
 >argumentation," and "desperation" come to mind. If I were you,
 >I'd pull in my pelican wings and head home. You've lost this
 >one.

In the past I've happily gone along with this "Pelican" business
as a bit of a laugh - we've even got a Pelican column in
Magonia. But it does seem to me that it is becoming a barrier to
serious discussion. If anybody is losing an argument, as Jerry
is here despite his proclamation of victory, they simply have to
start denouncing "Pelicanism" and coming up with ludicrous
phrases like "pelicanist doctrine", rather that directly
addressing the points raised by their critics. Can we have a
moratorium on our feathered friend?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 25

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:37:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:53:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:37:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:38:47 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>Sorry, Jerry, but I'm afraid that there is no room for questions
 >>- serious or otherwise - about the Trindade case. Richard Hall
 >>has spoken:

 >>"There is absolutely no doubt whatoever about the authenticity
 >>of these photos. It boggles the mind that you should make such a
 >>statement."

 >Well, John, it's up to you to provide the evidence that so far
 >you have failed to produce. Until you do, your critics will say
 >things like this. In the weighing of the evidence for the
 >authenticity of the Trindade sighting and photographs, the
 >scales are tipped entirely in one direction, unless you can find
 >something that shifts the balance.

I think I have demonstrated that there are enough questions and
ambiguities about this case, that statements such as "there is
absolutely no doubt whatever about the authenticity of these
photos" are insupportable.

 >>And later:

 >>"What you should have said here is that YOU don't know enough
 >>about the case to make a definitive judgement. We do."

 >>Does the "we" include you, Jerry?

 >Unless you can come up with negative evidence which so far has
 >eluded critics of the case, your critics are going to say things
 >like this. I generally agree with Dick's sentiment, though I
 >would have phrased it differently.

I have come up with a great deal of negative evidence, but you
have chosen to ignore it. You seem to place all your faith in an
unknown, unpublished Brazilian naval report which you hope
someone in Brazil might be able to uncover, and the fact that
none of the ship's crew came forward to claim a mythical reward
from a hypothetical newspaper by saying that they didn't see
anything!

As for the value of the independent witnesses, see below, where
I provide evidence that only two people made direct statements
that they saw a UFO at the time Brauna took his photographs.
Both were friends of Barauna, and even then one of their
statements gives, to say the least, less than wholehearted
support.

 >>You keep going on about "the precise number of witnesses", as
 >>though you were saying that there were 48, and I were
 >>pedantically claiming that there were only 46. The difference
 >>between three - identified and authenticated - and 48 is more
 >>than a minor correction; it alters the whole nature of the case.

 >Known named witnesses to the Trindade UFO photographed
 >by A. Barauna:

 >Cdr. Carlos Alberto Bacellar, director of the Trindade IGY station

"I was not a witness to the event because at that moment I was
in my cabin ... " Direct quotation, taken from Olavo Fontes
report.

 >Cdr. Paulo Moreira da Silva

Although he was on board the Almirante Saldhana at the time, it
is far from clear that he was a witness to the event. His
statement to Diario da Noite gives reasons why he believes the
object was not a weather balloon based on times of balloon
launches, but gives no indication that he was a witness.

 >Lt. Homero Ribeiro

Named as a witness by Barauna. There seems to be no direct
statement from him

 >Farias de Azeved

"The photographer Farias de Azevedo, who was more distant,
didn't come in time to get photos." From statement by Barauna.
No further mention of this person.

 >Almiro Barauna, photographer

Agreed

 >Air Force Capt (ret.) Jose Teoboldo Viegas

Named as a witness and gives a statement. Although a friend of
Barauna, he is allowed to accompany the photographer to the
darkroom when he developed his film. Was he also required to
strip to his underpants to ensure there was no fraud?

 >Amilar Vieira Filho

Friend of Barauna and member of his underwater photography team.
Although he gives a statement which I quoted in an earlier
posting, it is curiously ambiguous: "First I want to make it
clear that I don't know if what I saw was really the so-called
flying saucer ... "

 >Cdr. Moreira da Silva, of the Navy Hydrographic and Naviation
 >Service, told the press that the UFO could not have been a
 >balloon, guided missile, airplane, or seagull. He said it was
 >sighted by, besides himself, "many people of recognized
 >responsibility" on the ship. "Several officers" on the ship
 >verified "the image of the object on the negatives ... thus
 >discarding any possibility of a photographic trick."

I can find no reference to him saying the object was sighted by
himself. Perhaps you could give me a reference? Presumably the
people "of recognised responsibility" were Vieira, Viegas and
Homero, all people named by Barauna.

 >>I notice that, typically, you avoid the awkward question: where
 >>did you get the figure 48 from, and why does it only appear in
 >>photographic captions in your encyclopedias rather than in the
 >>text, where one might expect a reference to the source?

 >I don't know. This all happened more than a decade ago, and I'd
 >have to dig through my Trindade file -- unfindable at the moment
 >since, like Dennis Stacy, I am in the process of moving all my
 >stuff to another house -- to answer that question. Of course it
 >was based on a source that I judged to be reliable, but not
 >having a world-class memory of arcana from the 1991 of my life,
 >I can't tell you off the top of my head

 >Incidentally, you phrase the question in an insulting manner, as
 >if intimating that I made this up. I would like to believe that
 >is not your intention.

As the alleged large number of witnesses is of prime importance
in this case, I still find it odd that you did not reference
your source for that number. I would not suggest you made it up,
but I would suggest that having come across this figure, it
fitted so well with your spin on the case that you were happy to
use it without further investigation.

 >>Will you continue to use this figure if future editions of the
 >>encyclopedia, or anything else you may write about the case?

 >Not without finding out where it came from. In any event, no
 >"future edition" is in the works or even being contemplated, so
 >it's probably a moot question.

A shame. I refer to the current editions constantly.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 25

                         Pravda: The Lacerta File I

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:18:34 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:10:36 -0400
Subject: Pravda: The Lacerta File I


Source: Pravda.RU

July 24, 2002

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/07/24/33132.html

I do not endorse the contents of this page. As a matter of fact,
I'm quite surprised that Pravda retails this kind of news. The
page is very long, so I am sending you the introduction, only.

Stig

***

20:34 2002-07-24

THE LACERTA FILE I

The following article was sent to us by an alert reader.

**

Some weeks ago, I was asked by an online-friend if I can
translate a certain document concerning the truth about UFOs,
aliens and our real history. He said that he had received this
fascinating file from a friend in Sweden, whose name is Ole K.
(no full name available) who claimed that he had interviewed a
non-human reptilian being. He further claimed that this document
contains the absolute truth about UFOs and aliens (if someone
would give me only 100 DM for every "absolute truth about UFOs"
I've read in the last years, I would be a rich man). I know my
online-contact as a strong believer in UFOs and also as an
intelligent young man who knows many things about physics and
sightings, so I was very surprised when I read the weird
document called "Lacerta File I", the first time, and I asked
him if he really believe in this science-fiction story.

He was absolutely sure and said, that Ole K. is a personal
friend of his and that he would never lie. Concerning evidence,
he told me that he' read the whole transcript and that he's seen
the drawings and audio tapes Ole K. mentioned in his
introduction. I suppose every other 'normal' UFO researcher had
deleted this file immediately, but I'm "crazy" enough to try to
translate it. I have warned my friend that my English is rather
bad (as you know) but he was sure that I can do it and so I have
tried to translate it somehow understandable (maybe a good
exercise for me.) This means neither that I'm responsible for
the content of this file nor that I believe that it?s true, this
means only that I've done a translation job for a friend. I have
tried to make it easier to read by the use of some brackets (the
original German text - which was a translation from Swedish -
  was in a very confusing form) and I'm also not sure if I have
always used the correct words, but I hope it is understandable.

My personal opinion (after translating this weird text for
nearly one week) is, that the text is a really good science-
fiction story but never the truth or reality. The answers and
questions are always more or less logical, but I think the whole
message is too unbelievable to be true (especially the
scientific things) and in my opinion, the "being" tries too
often to avoid the answering of too difficult questions because
the author of the whole text was not able to know an answer. But
my job was a translation job and not commenting the content of
the file. I was asked if I can publish this file in the next
issue of the magazine, but I think it?s to long and also too
weird to be part of our magazine, but as I was asked to send it
to as many people as possible, I decided to send it as a normal
RTF-File (compatible with most word processors) to you. If this
stuff is too weird for you, please delete it. The things
mentioned in the file are definetly not my opinion or my belief.
Sorry for the wrong words and grammar.

Make your own opinion and let me know what you think.

Chris

<snip>

Copyright =A91999 by "Pravda.RU". When reproducing our materials
in whole or in part, reference to Pravda.RU should be made. The
opinions and views of the authors do not always coinside with
the point of view of PRAVDA.Ru's editors.








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   Jul > Jul 25

                  'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:44:11 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:12:49 -0400
Subject: 'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts


Source: This is Wiltshire, July 18, 2002,

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/leisure/weird/latest.html

Stig

***

Weird Wiltshire

**

<snip>

A NEW Hollywood block-buster about crop circles is already being
rubbished, several weeks before it has even been released.

The film Signs is clearly trying to cash in on the phenomena of
Wiltshire's crop formations by telling the story of how the
beliefs of a small-time farmer are tested when large patterns
mysteriously appear in one of his corn fields.

But already serious crop circle watchers are saying that the
film, which stars Mel Gibson, cannot be taken seriously.
Francine Blake of the Wiltshire Crop Circle Study Group said:
"It is the sort of typical hysterical Hollywood film we are used
to ? all sensational and scary.

"I know people who live in Hollywood who know what the plot is
about and they are in no doubt as to what sort of film it is.
"All I can say is that we are disappointed with this film. But I
would not urge people to boycott it because they will easily be
able to make up their own minds when they see it."

The film is about to be released in America, where there is a
big interest in crop circles, and is likely to be a box office
success. It was back in May last year that news leaked out that
Hollywood was going to climb on the crop circle bandwagon.

Every year hundreds of American tourists visit Wiltshire's
famous crop circles, and Mel Gibson, who starred in Braveheart
and Lethal Weapon is known to be interested in the subject, so
it was no surprise when he agreed to take the lead role.

He plays the part of farmer Graham Hess, and the plot focuses on
how he deals with the mysterious appearance of a 500ft design
which suddenly appears in a corn field on his farm in
Pennsylvania.

Meanwhile the crop circle season is well under way in Wiltshire
and one of the largest formations ever has appeared in a field
near Stonehenge. The symmetrical shape measures around 750 feet
in diameter which it is said links up three Bronze Age burial
grounds.

Mrs Blake said: "So far this summer a total of 25 formations
have been found throughout the country including 15 in
Wiltshire. "They also appear in many other countries throughout
the world and always close to ancient sites like Stonehenge and
Avebury.

"There always seems to be some connection with ancient sites."
And the interest in the Wiltshire phenomena continues to bring
in tourists to boost the local economy. Tomorrow and Friday two
coach loads of crop circle enthusiasts will be visiting two
major sites before attending a major symposium on the subject at
Glastonbury.

Organiser Sheila Martin would not say where the sites are, but
one of them is believed to be the new formation at Stonehenge
which is the second largest ever found.

"All I am prepared to say is that they are nice ones and that we
have got permission to visit the sites," she said.

"The press is not invited because people visiting the sites want
to be left alone in peace so they can benefit from the
experience." Ms Martin is another crop circle enthusiast not
impressed with the Mel Gibson film and prefers to ignore it.

So how does she think the formations are made? "I do not bother
to think what makes them. I just look and want to see if I get a
feeling, like a burst of energy, from it.

"This happens with some formations but others are as dead as
nails. "I do not think it is an ordinary intelligence behind
it." On July 27 and 28 the Wiltshire Study Group is holding its
annual get together at Devizes School.

**

=A9 Copyright 2002 Newsquest Media Group - A Gannett Company







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                       Intricate Crop Circle 'No Hoax'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:55:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:14:37 -0400
Subject: Intricate Crop Circle 'No Hoax'


Source: Salisbury Journal & Avon Advertiser

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/salisbury/news/SALIS_NEWS8.html

July 18, 2002

Stig

***

Intricate crop circle 'no hoax'

**

A SPECTACULAR crop circle has appeared on Normanton Down, near
Stonehenge.

The elaborate design measures 740ft across and is considered
very sophisticated.

Just a fraction smaller than Britain's largest-ever crop circle,
which appeared last year, the formation comprises a network of
paths and slender curves, radiating outwards from a central
point.

The crop circle, which is invisible from the ground, was
discovered two weeks ago by a pilot on a routine training flight
from Thruxton.

He reported that the field housing the formation had been empty
the previous day.

No signs of mud or obvious footmarks were found on the flattened
crop, and three sides of the formation touch ancient long
barrows neolithic burial mounds.

The farmer, who wishes to remain anonymous, said: "We went to
see the circle the next day and you could just feel the energy
your fingers started tingling and you could feel a tightening in
your chest.

"The divining rods were also doing their thing, but there is a
concentration of ley lines around Stonehenge.

"I don't know how it formed, but I do know that you can't stand
in a field with 20 men and make that pattern.

"It has clearly not been done with planks of wood either because
you just couldn't have co-ordinated that design, it's so
intricate."

**

=A9 Copyright 2002 Newsquest Media Group - A Gannett Company








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                  More On Wisconsin Event & Six 'Unknowns'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 03:10:45 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:02:01 -0400
Subject: More On Wisconsin Event & Six 'Unknowns'


Source: The Sheboygan Press

http://www.wisinfo.com/sheboyganpress/area/072202-1.html

Stig

***

Mon 22-July-2002

Mysterious lights at UFO Daze

By Mary Ann Holley

Sheboygan Press staff

**

DUNDEE - Six glowing amber spheres lit up the night sky Saturday
above a forested area on the northern edge of Long Lake, lending
credence to the statement, "They're out there."

More than 150 spectators watched as the lights moved
methodically across the sky, then hovered in a formation over
the northern edge of the Kettle Moraine State Forest.

One flashed from a bright yellow to a clear white. Then a second
sphere flashed. The unknown lights were a surprise, but not
entirely unexpected for those who had gathered there for UFO
Daze, an event held each July for the past 12 years.

"If it's a hoax, it's a good one," said Bill Benson, owner of
Benson's Holiday Hideaway, a small country tavern on the
northern point of Long Lake. "If someone's jerking our chain,
they're doing a good job."

Inside the tavern, where Out of this World pizza, Alien Extras
and Martian pick-me-ups are on the menu, a 3-inch scrapbook sits
on the bar, filled with hundreds of photographs of UFO sightings
from the area.

"We call this UFO headquarters because there are so many
sightings," Benson said.

In May 1985 after a night of soupy fog blanketed the area, a
crop circle was formed in marsh grass just outside the tavern.
The event was documented on a national television show, Benson
said.

"A neighbor lady lost all the water in her well that night,"
Benson recalled. "It later came back, but never ran as well as
it did before."

In 1989, a neighbor tried to chase the cows out of his barn, but
the cows would run back in, Benson said. A UFO was seen hovering
east and south of the barn. Another neighbor verified the
incident, Benson said. In 1999, four fighter jets were seen
chasing a light over the lake. Photos were taken by a local
resident.

"I don't know why they pick this place," Benson said. "People
say the magnetic energies in the earth here are very high. Maybe
that's the reason. One of our town board members saw the same
fighter jets."

UFO Daze guests spent the day hearing presentations by those who
had encountered UFOs on various occasions and those who claimed
to have regular contact with extraterrestrial beings.

Bonnie Meyer of Neenah, a presenter at the event, claimed she
has had alien contacts since 1976 when a craft came down over
the road as she was driving.

"I was camping in New London over the Fourth of July with my
husband, friends and family," Meyer said. "A ladder dropped down
and an alien in a silver suit waved me over. At first I wasn't
going to go, but I figured I'd never have that chance again."

Since then, Meyer said, there have been steady contacts varying
from once a week to once a month. They come down and she goes
with them, she said.

She said her neighbors don't notice because the ship puts up a
force-field, a device, the aliens explained, that prevents
others from seeing them.

"They said they're here because we're not kind to our planet,"
Meyer said. "I've met about 16 different alien varieties, from
those who look like the Pillsbury Doughboy to ones that look
like a blue Big Bird. They've always been friendly and kind.
They said they'd like us to speak out more."

Heathermarie Podulke of Sheboygan said she saw UFOs during last
year's UFO Daze.

"It changed my life and changed my world," Podulke said. "It
reminded me more of my soul's intention and purpose, that my
soul comes from extraterrestrial origins. It jarred my
memories."

Ken Keen of Milwaukee attended UFO Daze for the past two years.
He said he blew off work to be there.

"Absolutely, I believe," said Keen. "It seems like common sense
to me. The universe is very large. I'm into the Bible. Who
knows? What we see might be God. It's a science and spiritual
thing for me."

Rich Beringer of Dundee, a regular at the tavern, said he takes
the UFO talk in stride.

"I live here. I was here when the marsh grass was packed down,"
Beringer said. "A couple of girls came in screaming. They were
scared crapless. I don't know if I'm into it, but I've seen some
weird things around here."

On the Web:

www.ufowisconsin.com

Reach Mary Ann Holley at Mholley@smgpo.gannett and at 457-7711,
Ext. 169.

**

Copyright =A92001 The Sheboygan Press. All Rights Reserved.








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   Jul > Jul 25

                          rop Circle In Basel Area

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:19:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:04:17 -0400
Subject: rop Circle In Basel Area


Source: Basler Zeitung - Switzerland

July 24, 2002

http://www.baz.ch/englishcorner/articles.cfm

Stig

***

Erschienen am: 24.07.2002

New place of pilgrimage: a grain circle in the Baselbiet

**

Nobody can state any longer that there are too few points of
interest for tourists in the Baselbiet. Shortly after the
successful federal athletics festival has closed its gate, the
rural canton has a new place of pilgrimage: the first grain
circle in the history of the Baselbiet! It can be found west of
Sissach's neighboring community B=F6ckten, in a grain field
belonging to farmer Hansj=F6rg Mangold. Before he knew what had
hit him, the Swiss media was focusing on him, and even Erich von
D=E4niken is showing an interest in him.

What had happened? The farmer didn't believe his eyes when he
saw the mess: his grain field now boasts a figure in the form of
a key, and the circle alone has a radius of about 25 meters
(approximately 80 feet). Nobody can say who =ABdrew=BB it. Even a
lady who lives only about 200 meters away didn't see or hear
anything. A very similar design appeared two weeks ago in the
Argovian community of Unterehrendingen. Since the Swiss
newspaper =ABBlick=BB published the story, the issue has become a
household topic in the region. Many rubbernecks are cavorting
around and in the field, forcing the farmer to fence it off to
save it from being trampled flat completely.

And it goes without saying that speculations range from the two
extremes of =ABextraterrestrials=BB to =ABa boys' prank=BB. Even though
the grain-circle phenomenon originally known from England is
more of a novelty here in Switzerland, there is a circle -
  pardon the pun - of specialists who now examine the grain
stalks at the laboratories in order to find out if any esoteric
activity might be involved. It has been reported that the
evidence doesn't point to any extraterrestrial-mystic doings at
all. Indeed the drawing is rather inaccurate. On the other hand
though, the =ABperpetrators=BB have left no traces, and this makes
many people wonder if this can really be a deed committed by
human hand. The circle of esoteric fans will be bound to
increase again, even if the diagnosis of =ABpractical joke=BB is the
most likely.

And the stupid rumor that the new people in charge of the
tourist board in the Baselbiet are behind this is being denied
vehemently... Farmer Mangold in turn would like to put up a
drinks booth to compensate for at least some of the damage done
to his field.

By ET, translated by ES

Basler Zeitung of July 24, 2002

**

=A9 Copyright

Konzeption und Realisation: Netloop AG








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:28:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:05:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

<snip>

 >The usual pelican logic, in other words. Since UFOs don't exist,
 >witnesses are mistaken by definition... except when they're
 >right by definition, as when they see IFOs. Where would pelicans
 >be without their tautologies?

Jerry:

Speaking of tautologies, can you point to a citation where
anyone on this List claimed that, "witness testimony is to be
considered totally unreliable," other than yourself?

Please be specific with your citation.

 >For a sky clear of pelicans,

 >Jerry Clark


Skuak, skuak,

Bob Young








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                           NASA Needs Course Shift

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:32:03 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:16:15 -0400
Subject: NASA Needs Course Shift


Source: SPACE.com,

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astrobiology_report_020719.html

Stig

***

Astrobiology Report: NASA Needs Course Shift
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 09:30 am ET
19 July 2002

**

A committee of top scientists reviewing NASA's five-year-old
astrobiology program gives it an overall thumbs up while
recommending the space agency revise its approach and improve
coordination with other, similar federal research programs.

The report also praises the privately run SETI Institute and
its search for intelligent life and calls it worthy of more
notice by mainstream scientists and agencies.

In the late 1990s, NASA created its first "roadmap" for
astrobiology, an emerging discipline that incorporates
astronomy, biology and many other fields in an effort to
characterize life, how it began and evolved on Earth and
whether and where it might exist elsewhere in the universe.

That initial roadmap is now outdated, according to a report
scheduled to be issued today by the National Research Council
(NRC), which conducted the independent review at NASA's
request.

SPACE.com and Space News obtained an advance copy of the
report, titled "Life in the Universe: An Examination of the
United States and International Programs in Astrobiology." The
committee that produced it was co-chaired by Jonathan Lunine
of the University of Arizona and John Baross from the
University of Washington.

The report praises the space agency for fostering a quick and
effective flourishing of astrobiology, in part by setting up a
virtual research lab, the NASA Astrobiology Institute, that is
distributed across more than a dozen universities and NASA
agencies around the United States.

But in the five years since NASA coined the term
"astrobiology," various fields it encompasses have seen
dramatic advances, the report notes.

Roughly 100 planets have been found to orbit other stars, for
example. Solar systems discovered only this year and
containing planets in Jupiter-like orbits illustrate that our
solar system is probably not unique. Meanwhile, genetic
researchers and biologists have made great strides in
understand what makes life tick. It often ticks in extremely
hot and cold places, they have learned.

Much of astrobiology concerns the characterization and search
for simple, microbial life.

However, the report called the SETI Institute's search for
extraterrestrial intelligence perhaps the most romantic
venture in astrobiology yet said it has had a checkered
reception by scientists and federal lawmakers. This portion of
the SETI Institute's research survives almost entirely on
private funding, having had little success in recent years
courting NASA or the National Science Foundation (NSF). Other
aspects of the SETI Institute's work, involving general
biological, chemical and astronomical research of life, do
receive federal funding.

The new report stops short of recommending more funding for
the search for intelligent life, instead saying the SETI
Institute's efforts in this area are worthy of notice by
relevant federal agencies.

NASA had once funded the search for extraterrestrial
intelligence, but that funding was removed by Congress in the
early 1990s. Lunine, co-chair of the report committee, said in
a telephone interview that the SETI Institute "deserved a slap
on the back" for keeping the its SETI program going with
private funding, and for doing it well.

"We didn't see that there was any reason to change the mix,"
Lunine said. However, he hopes the report will cause
politicians to reconsider the search for intelligent life as a
viable astrobiology endeavor.

Past NRC reports have similarly embraced SETI's efforts, said
Christopher Chyba, the Carl Sagan Chair for the Study of Life
in the Universe at the SETI Institute and an associate
professor at Stanford University.

"SETI is now endorsed scientifically by both the astronomers
and the biologists," Chyba said. "In light of this, the
scientific search for extraterrestrial intelligence should
certainly be allowed to compete on a level playing field under
competitive peer review in appropriate NASA or NSF programs.
An endorsement of the value of SETI for astrobiology in this
current NRC report emphasizes SETI's natural place in any
comprehensive scientific approach to astrobiology."

NASA is already drafting a new roadmap for astrobiology. A
public comment and suggestion period ended in June.

The new NRC report was presented to NASA yesterday.

"We have briefed the NASA folks on this report and my sense is
that they are going to take it seriously," Lunine said. "The
ink is not dry on the roadmap."

The NRC report suggests the space agency investigate overlaps
and force its NASA Astrobiology Institute to cooperate more
closely with the NASA Origins program, which also examines the
origin of life, along with the origin of the solar system and
the universe.

A new roadmap for the origins program is also being drafted.
Lunine said NASA should consider a "super roadmap" that spells
out how various programs can best benefit from cooperation and
division of labor.

Finally, the report notes that while NASA has led the way,
astrobiology is beginning to flourish in Australia, Spain, the
United Kingdom and elsewhere in Europe. NASA should work to
ease international regulations governing technology transfer
in order to work more closely with astrobiologists around the
world.

**

=A9 2002 SPACE.com, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.







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                            Why ET Hasn't Called

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:49:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:18:26 -0400
Subject: Why ET Hasn't Called


Source: Scienticic American

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=3D000800AC-8550-1D2B-97CA809EC588=
EEDF&catID=3D2

It would take a disproportionate long time to reproduce the
mathematical formulas correctly here, due to the intricate
typography, so you should visit the page to understand the
equations.

Stig

***

August 2002 issue

Why ET Hasn't Called

The lifetime of civilizations in the Drake equation for
estimating extraterrestrial intelligences is greatly exaggerated

By Michael Shermer

**

In science there is arguably no more suppositional formula than
that proposed in 1961 by radio astronomer Frank Drake for
estimating the number of technological civilizations that reside
in our galaxy: N =3D R fp ne fl fi fc L

In this equation, N is the number of communicative
civilizations, R is the rate of formation of suitable stars, fp
is the fraction of those stars with planets, ne is the number of
Earth-like planets per solar system, fl is the fraction of
planets with life, fi is the fraction of planets with
intelligent life, fc is the fraction of planets with
communicating technology, and L is the lifetime of communicating
civilizations.

Although we have a fairly good idea of the rate of stellar
formation, a dearth of data for the other components means that
calculations are often reduced to the creative speculations of
quixotic astronomers.

Most SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) scientists
are realistic about the limitations of their field; still, I was
puzzled to encounter numerous caveats about L, such as this one
from SETI Institute astronomer Seth Shostak: "The lack of
precision in determining these parameters pales in comparison
with our ignorance of L." Similarly, Mars Society president
Robert Zubrin says that "the biggest uncertainty revolves around
the value of L; we have very little data to estimate this
number, and the value we pick for it strongly influences the
results of the calculation." Estimates of L reflect this
uncertainty, ranging from 10 years to 10 million years, with a
mean of about 50,000 years.

Using a conservative Drake equation calculation, where L =3D
50,000 years (and R =3D 10, fp =3D 0.5, ne =3D 0.2, fl =3D 0.2, fi =3D
0.2, fc =3D 0.2), then N =3D 400 civilizations, or one per 4,300
light-years. Using Zubrin's optimistic (and modified) Drake
equation, where L =3D 50,000 years, then N =3D five million galactic
civilizations, or one per 185 light-years. (Zubrin's calculation
assumes that 10 percent of all 400 billion stars are suitable G-
  and K-type stars that are not part of multiples, with almost
all having planets, that 10 percent of these contain an active
biosphere and that 50 percent of those are as old as Earth.)
Estimates of N range wildly between these figures, from
Planetary Society scientist Thomas R. McDonough's 4,000 to Carl
Sagan's one million.

Species may simply not be equipped to survive for long periods
in large populations.

I find this inconsistency in the estimation of L perplexing
because it is the one component in the Drake equation for which
we have copious empirical data from the history of civilization
on Earth. To compute my own value of L, I compiled the durations
of 60 civilizations (years from inception to demise or the
present), including Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Babylonia, the eight
dynasties of Egypt, the six civilizations of Greece, the Roman
Republic and Empire, and others in the ancient world, plus
various civilizations since the fall of Rome, such as the nine
dynasties (and two republics) of China, four in Africa, three in
India, two in Japan, six in Central and South America, and six
modern states of Europe and America.

The 60 civilizations in my database endured a total of 25,234
years, so L =3D 420.6 years. For more modern and technological
societies, L became shorter, with the 28 civilizations since the
fall of Rome averaging only 304.5 years. Plugging these figures
into the Drake equation goes a long way toward explaining why ET
has yet to drop by or phone in. Where L =3D 420.6 years, N =3D 3.36
civilizations in our galaxy; where L =3D 304.5 years, N =3D 2.44
civilizations in our galaxy. No wonder the galactic airways have
been so quiet!

I am an unalloyed enthusiast for the SETI program, but history
tells us that civilizations may rise and fall in cycles too
brief to allow enough to flourish at any one time to traverse
(or communicate across) the vast and empty expanses between the
stars. We evolved in small hunter- gatherer communities of 100
to 200 individuals; it may be that our species, and perhaps
extraterrestrial species as well (assuming evolution operates in
a like manner elsewhere), is simply not well equipped to survive
for long periods in large populations.

Whatever the quantity of L, and whether N is less than 10 or
more than 10 million, we must ensure L does not fall to zero on
our planet, the only source of civilization we have known.

*

The Author(s):

Michael Shermer is publisher of Skeptic magazine
(www.skeptic.com) and author of In Darwin's Shadow: The Life and
Science of Alfred Russel Wallace.

**

=A9 1996-2002 Scientific American, Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is
prohibited.








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                  Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:14:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:20:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Maccabee


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:55:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story

 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:42:33 +0200
 >>Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story

<snip>

 >The idea grew out of a story that appeared in the comics of the
 >Washington Post called Flashbacks which dealt with the sightings
 >and was inspired by my book "Invasion Washington" about the 1952
 >sightings. It was carried over three or four weekends and it was
t>hen that someone noticed that the 50th anniversary was about to
 >hit... something that I hadn't even considered when I suggested
 >the book to my publisher.

Perhaps Carlson said this to Randle, implying that he first had
the idea this year. However, he clearly told me that he first
had the idea last year, and began his research, only to learn
immediately that he was off by one year.

 >For my part, as we talked about UFOs in general, I mentioned
 >over sightings that seemed to be as mysterious (Levelland, the
 >Lubbock Lights or rather the photographs, and yes, even Roswell)
 >but the reporter's interest was only in the Washington Nationals
 >because he was (a) in Washington, D.C. and (b) it was coming up
 >on the 50th.

I agree with this impression of Carlson's narrow focus.

 >Even with that, I was impressed with the tone of the article and
 >that the reporter told me up front what his plan was because
 >there was so much information available that he didn't really
 >know what the answer might be. He wasn't going to take sides,
 >just give us the facts.

Unfortunately he missed the "most important" fact... that
Samford essentially lied at his press conference when he stuck
to the "its all natural phenomena" line of the AF. We know from
the FBI file, and I pointed it out to Carlson, that Air Force
Intelligence told the FBI there was a small percentage of
sightings that could not be explained and that some AF officials
were considering it not entirely impossible that some UFOs were
interplanetary visitors. If Samford had hinted at interplanetary
visitors at his press conference the ld would have blown off.
INstead, Samford screwed the lid on tightly.

Incidently, it was only a couple of months earlier, in April
1952, that LIFE Magazine had printed a story based on AF
records... a story with the subtitle, "there is a case for
interplanetary saucers." This is all described (complete with a
picture of Marilyn) at my web site: Year Of the UFO










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                  Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:14:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:24:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story - Maccabee


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:42:33 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Washington Post UFO Story

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:20:47 EDT
 >>Subject: Washington Post UFO Story
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>List, All -

 >>For those interested in the Washington Post story about UFOs, see:

 >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31625-2002Jul19.html

 >>The article seemed fair and balanced to me and the reporter seemed to
 >>have done a good job in laying out the facts. This is the sort of thing
 >>we need to see.

 >>KRandle

 >Hi Kevin,

 >I heartily agree. Plus, the reporter stated a few details I had
 >not seen (or my foggy mind forgot) during past years. I wonder
 >who at the Post had the idea to write a story for the 50th
 >anniversary?

Peter Carlson, read my web site presentation:

http://brumac.8k.com/1952yearofufo/1952yearofufo.html

as well as Ruppelt's book (on the Washington sightings) and
other literatrue including Kevin's book. He then visited my
house where we talked about the sightings and related matters
for several hours. I don't recall exactly how he thought of
doing a story on the sightings, but I do recall him saying that
he began thinking about it over a year ago. He said he recalled
the events or hearing about them long ago and had thought they
were in 1951. Therefore he began his research last year and
quickly learned the sightings were in 1952. He then ;posponed
further work to this spring when he first made contact with
ufologists for information. My understanding is that his idea to
do the story was just that.... his idea, not something someone
suggested to him.

 >I also wonder if the reporter was asked by the
 >researchers in the story to write further articles or a series?

I didn't suggest he do a series. My impression is that this is a
guy who writes about all sorts of things and now he has "done"
ufos and will next "do" some other subject (been with the Post
for 15(?) years and has written many different articles on many
different things). I did not get the impression that he was
really interested in UFOs, per se, but rather that he was
interested in doing this one story about the 50th anniversary of
the DC sightings. I do plan to occasionally send him an email
with some interesting stuff.

 >If written with this objectivity it would go a long way to
 >getting a significant section of the readers (public,
 >government. military) calling for a new examination of the UFO
 >situation. I'll be interested to see what responses regarding
 >this article appear in the paper. We should contact the Post,
 >support their effort, and ask them to cover more of the subject.

Yeah. <LOL>Pardon my jocularity. So far as I know there has
been no response. I did get an interview on a Baltimore radio
station for about 10 minutes on Monday morning.

 >It is also interesting that getting the Post to write about UFOs
 >has been recently discussed here on Updates. Fortunately my
 >satirical side did not respond to Eleanor White when she was
 >asking about how to up the ante to get the paper to write. I was
 >going to direct her to the archives posts from the woman who was
 >"dieting for disclosure" before Eleanor joined the list.>

 >As a matter of fact, maybe going on a water only fast by Steven
 >Greer, the disclosure dieter, all of CSETI, and Stephen Bassett
 >would help with their causes. They could do it in front of the
 >Capitol and maybe the government would grant disclosure when
t>hey are one breath from death. That may be the only way they
 >will get a congressional hearing if the Post story does not
 >generate enough heat. Let's try to get the paper to write
f>urther and keep the above from happening.

My guess is that "the Post" has no interest in UFOs. The hokey
color picture, 1950's comic book style, of saucers over the
capitol and people staring all ga-ga, accompanying the paper
version of the article (not the web presentation) was sufficient
to signal to the average reader that "this is for entertainment
and may well be a lot of bunk." The web presentation is less
biased (by leaving out the comic book type picture).










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   Jul > Jul 25

                             Re: Uh Oh! - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:23:22 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:27:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Uh Oh! - Acres


 >From: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates Subscribers
 >Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 4:39 AM
 >Subject: Uh Oh!

 >Source: BBC On-Line

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2147879.stm

 >An asteroid could devastate Earth
 >By Dr David Whitehouse
 >BBC News Online science editor

 >An asteroid discovered just weeks ago has become the most
 >threatening object yet detected in space.

<snip>

Hi Errol et al.

This could be the big one, hey? Too early to tell, yet! There's
not enough available data at this stage!

If it proves to be imminent, on the plus side, at least we have
plenty of time to prepare the planet and to attempt to deflect
it! It could be catalystic in uniting mankind to fight a common
enemy for the 1st time in history?

Interesting times indeed!


Regards

Dave







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   Jul > Jul 25

                   SETI's 'Holy Grail' Found In Deep Space

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 05:20:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:28:56 -0400
Subject: SETI's 'Holy Grail' Found In Deep Space


Source: New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns99992558


Stig

***

Amino acid found in deep space

10:57 18 July 02

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition

**

An amino acid, one of the building blocks of life, has been
spotted in deep space. If the find stands up to scrutiny, it
means that the sorts of chemistry needed to create life are not
unique to Earth verifying one of astrobiology's cherished
theories.

This would add weight to ideas that life exists on other
planets, and even that molecules from outer space kick-started
life on Earth.

Over 130 molecules have been identified in interstellar space so
far, including sugars and ethanol. But amino acids are a
particularly important find because they link up to form
proteins, the molecules that run, and to a large extent make up
our cells.

Back in 1994, a team led by astronomer Lewis Snyder of the
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign announced preliminary
evidence of the simplest type of amino acid, glycine, but the
finding did not stand up to closer examination (New Scientist
magazine, 11 June 1994, p 4).

Now Snyder and Yi-Jehng Kuan of the National Taiwan Normal
University say they really have found glycine. "We're more
confident [this time]," says Kuan. "We have strong evidence that
glycine exists in interstellar space."


Huge blobs

The researchers monitored radio waves for the spectral lines
characteristic of glycine. They studied emissions from more
locations than before - giant molecular clouds, huge blobs of
gas and dust grains. They have also identified 10 spectral lines
at each location that correspond to the lines created by glycine
in the lab; before they had just two.

The discovery of glycine supports recent lab-based simulations
of deep space, which show that ices containing simple organic
matter could form. When researchers bathe those ices in
ultraviolet light, amino acids are created.

"Glycine is the holy grail," says Jill Tarter, director of the
Centre for SETI Research at the SETI Institute in Mountain View.
"Let's hope they've got it this time."

*

Rachel Nowak

**

=A9 Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd.








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:18:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:31:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >It is totally unreliable only when it attests to something
 >extraordinary and otherwise resistant to explanation (such as a
 >close encounter with a daylight disc); then you can't trust
 >"anecdotal testimony" - fill in Loftus citation here. But that
 >same anecdotal testimony becomes amazingly accurate when
 >witnesses are describing something that can be explained as an
 >IFO from the description.

 >The usual pelican logic, in other words. Since UFOs don't exist,
 >witnesses are mistaken by definition... except when they're
 >right by definition, as when they see IFOs. Where would pelicans
 >be without their tautologies?


I've been reading this thread with interest, and Jerry, I have
to ask, are you suggesting that we _can_ rely on eyewitness
testimony to build a credible case for nuts-and-bolts UFOs? The
pelicanists' contention that eyewitness testimony alone is
nothing more than an interesting anecdote is well-taken here.
That's _why_ we do CE-2 investigations, to see if there is
anything that bolsters the witnesses' stories.

I don't think their position is that eyewitness accounts are
completely disposable. At least I _hope_ that's not their
position. Where we pro-ufologists differ with the pelicanists is
probably more a matter of the degree to which witness
descriptions can differ with reality, e.g. claiming that someone
who describes a large glowing object 500 feet away from them
really saw the planet Jupiter.


==JJS==








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             CI: Mars Odyssey Takes Infrared Photo of Face & D&M

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:35:15 -0400
Subject: CI: Mars Odyssey Takes Infrared Photo of Face & D&M


Cydonian Imperative
7-24-02

Mars Odyssey THEMIS Takes Infrared Photo of Face and
D&M

by Mac Tonnies

for links and additional content, visit:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

The Mars Odyssey's THEMIS has taken a first-ever infrared (IR)
photo of Cydonia, showing us the Face and D&M Pyramid radiating
daylight heat into the Martian atmosphere. Unfortunately, the IR
image tells us nothing new or unexpected; basically, all the
image says is that portions of landforms illuminated directly by
the sun are hotter than portions that aren't, which comes as no
particular surprise. While the IR image is a welcome
contribution to the study of the Cydonia region, it provides no
evidence confirming or refuting the Artificiality Hypothesis.

[image]

The Mars Odyssey spacecraft with THEMIS instrument
package.

A night-time IR image is neeed to help test the notion that the
Face and D&M Pyramid are (at least partially) hollow, and thus
almost certainly non-natural; landforms, natural and otherwise,
radiate heat in distinct ways. If the Face is hollow and/or
composed of materials other than native rock, we should expect
to find a thermal emission "signature" telling us as much.
Zeroing in on this possibility, Richard Hoagland has posted a
false-color image of the D&M, claiming that the new THEMIS image
shows "honeycomb"-like internal structure. In my opinion, this
assertion is rash; more study is necessary before definitive
conclusions can be reached. And given the nature of the THEMIS
data, it's highly doubtful if the burning question of possible
artificiality can be answered until new images are acquired.

-end-







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:37:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Any witness to anything _except_ UFO or UFO related abduction is
 >>considered to be dependable, reliable, and good. However if the
 >>same witness claimed to have also seen a UFO skeptics would
 >>instantly tell us about the unreliability of witness, why it is
 >>a hoax, misidentification of natural phenomena and so on and
 >>should be disregarded for various asundry reasons.

 >If you had actually read the report of the case - easily
 >available on the Internet even five thosand miles away in
 >Britain - you will have seen that the police did not rely solely
 >on the eyewitness evidence of the little girl. This was
 >valuable, but it served to lead them to DNA evidence which
 >appears to be the basis of their case.

Actually if you had seen the various excerpts of the interviews,
you would have seen the sheriff admit that he made the arrest
_before_ any alleged DNA match. Meaning he didn't rely upon so
called DNA evidence to make the arrest.

 >No UFO case has evidence one hundredth as convincing as forensic
 >DNA evidence.

The basis for the arrest wasn't the DNA evidence, at least
according to the law enforcement folks.

 >>Police and other law enforcement don't seem to mind using, and
 >>relying upon witness testimony. The skeptibunkers will probably
 >>have an elaborate tale about why this is all different then the
 >>sighting of a UFO.

 >Yes, we're skeptibunkers, so you don't have to bother putting a
 >case up against us. Just using the word as a mantra is,
 >apparently, enough to demolish the critic's case. How
 >convenient.

In the drivel and deflection, I see you are still unable to come
up with any kind of story as to why a 5 year old girls witness
testimony should be considered reliable (point, I consider her
testimony to be reliable) but witness testimony involving UFO
are instantly dismissed, yawned and burped at by the
skeptibunker crowd.

 >>Gee whiz the drawing that was used to finger the dude came from
 >>the little girl.

 >No it wasn't. The drawing was an important contributory factor,
 >but it was the forensic evidence which was used "to finger the
 >dude".

Had John actually seen the excerpts of the press
conference/interview, he would have seen that the DNA was an
after thought so to speak, at least according to the law
enforcement officials.

What led to the arrest was the eyewitness testimony of a 5 year
old girl.

 >Read the full story on the Internet, and you'll see this has
 >little relevance to UFO cases. It's just Jerry Clark "clutching
 >at straws", to use one of his favorite phrases.

 >>The bottom line question to the skepti bunkers: Is witness
 >>testimony to be considered reliable whether it involves an
 >>abduction of a little girl or UFO related? Remember what ever
 >>criteria of reliability for witness testimony can also be
 >>applied to UFO witnesses as well.

 >Witness testimony is to be considered reliable when it is backed
 >up by solid evidence, as it appears to have been in this case,
 >thanks to good police work.

Since you do apparently do like eyewitness, please explain under
what standards of testimony and proof (remember all the police
essentially had was the testimony from the little girl and a
drawing) would be required from a witness in a UFO case. Further
do you consider witness testimony in UFO cases to be reliable?
If a witness came to you and said they saw a meteor in the sky,
describe what they saw would you be inclined to accept, or
reject the witness testimony?

Its been my observation (I may be wrong here and hope John
surprises me with his answer to the earlier questions) that the
skeptibunker crowd embraces all witness testimony as long as it
doesn't involve UFO. Once UFO enters they start raising the
bar/standards of proof.

Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
the testimony of people who say saw a meteor? I mean after all
unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?


Cheers,

Robert








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              Re: Setting the Record Straight - Again! - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:18:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:41:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Record Straight - Again! - Gates


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:30:35 -0400
 >Subject: Setting the Record Straight - Again!

 >Hello All,

 >Because of a negative and _vicious_ smear campaign that has
 >been launched against me by a couple of individuals, I find
 >myself in the uncomfortable and awkward position of having to
 >publicly defend myself.

Hi John,

As I recall we once disagreed about something (can't remember
what it is at this point) but I have not seen anything like
this, nor would I be inclined to believe it.

<snip>

 >Briefly; e-mails which contain a string of malicious lies about
 >me have been circulated (privately) to List members and others.
 >I have no idea how many people this attempt at character
 >assassination may have reached. In it, I am being accused of
 >horrendous (and on the face of it 'absurd') acts, such as:

 >... that I "threatened the livelihood of an abductee" because
 >they "would not bow to my will."

 >... that I have "called abductees at their homes and cursed them
 >out."

Doesn't sound like the John I have seen posting on the List over
the years. Does sound like some others.....

 >... that Errol Bruce-Knapp has been helping in "getting the word
 >out" about me - privately - to "people who need to know" these
 >things about me.

The fact that EBK has put this email out on the List suggests to
me that EBK has not been getting any such words out. Its
probably somebodys wet dream... more like a giant pipe dream,
complete with pink elephants and red herrings.


Cheers,

Robert







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             Re: Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twinning - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:39:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:43:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twinning - Hatch


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:14:35 +0200
 >Subject: Top Scots UFO Site In Roswell Twinning

 >Source: The Scotsman

 >http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=783752002

 >Stig

 >***

 >Scotland On Sunday  .. Sun 21 Jul 2002

 >Top Scots UFO site in Roswell tie

 >TOBY McDONALD

 >THE UFO capital of Scotland will take a step closer to twinning
 >with Roswell next month when a colourful councillor jets off to
 >meet the mayor of the New Mexico town.

 >Billy Buchanan is due to meet Bill B Owen Mayor of Roswell -
 >where an 'alien craft' crash-landed in 1947 - to discuss the
 >otherworldly twinning plan with Bonnybridge.

<snip>

 >Scotland tops the world league for UFO sightings by geographical
 >area with four times as many as Italy and France, which came
 >joint second in the table. And the country tops a second league
 >table based on sightings per head of population, beating Canada
 >into second place.

<snip>

 >Yesterday, Buchanan, who has a dozen sightings of his own to his
 >credit, said: "It will be a great day for Bonnybridge and put it
 >firmly on the map.

Hello Stig and all:

If I recall, there is a town in Wisconsin that wants to join in
as well.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                         Farnborough UFO Case 1950s

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:20:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:45:02 -0400
Subject: Farnborough UFO Case 1950s


Hi All,

Having just read the interview that Dave Clark had with Wing
Commander Stan Hubbard, on the Farnborough Daylight Disc
sightings he had at the Royal Aircraft Establishment <RAE>,
surely this points out yet another shining example of how fully
graded professional Test Pilots, have witnessed UFOs at close
quarters in Daylight.

I thought the interview was a good read, and one could only feel
the truth pouring out of the paper from Stan Hubbard.

The terrible handling of this case by the UK Government at the
time, was of course a prerequisite for cases further on the
pipeline, such as the Rendelsham 80s case.

More food for thought, if digging at old UFO cases.

Roy..


Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.

Articles On the UFO Subject,  Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!








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              Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:50:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:11:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Young


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

Paul:

Fascinating information. I wonder what the role was, if any, for
meteorological balloons with these AAA units. Considering the
high-angle of fire windage might have been important, although
probably not so much if radar or searchlights were used. These
are used with current arty. I wonder if they might have been
used with flares or lights for ranging.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:55:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:15:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >Its been my observation (I may be wrong here and hope John
 >surprises me with his answer to the earlier questions) that the
 >skeptibunker crowd embraces all witness testimony as long as it
 >doesn't involve UFO. Once UFO enters they start raising the
 >bar/standards of proof.

Robert,

After all these years, I can't understand why people such as you
describe, spend so much time in a subject they feel or know does
not actually exist? Maybe it is the amusement of seeing one's
name plastered all over UFO forums, a medicine of getting you
through the day, sort of makes you feel that you are wanted and
cared for by other people.

Oh' I forgot' there real job is too save us nutters who landed
outside of the bubble many years ago!

Throw as many testimonies at sceptics as you want, you get one
answer. Kind of reminds me of the scene in Jaws 1, where brodie
is showing the old codgers in the meeting, the photos of Jaws, a
film I know, but has many similarities today!


Roy








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:44:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:18:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:37:27 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:37:12 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:38:47 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>Well, John, it's up to you to provide the evidence that so far
 >>you have failed to produce. Until you do, your critics will say
 >>things like this. In the weighing of the evidence for the
 >>authenticity of the Trindade sighting and photographs, the
 >>scales are tipped entirely in one direction, unless you can find
 >>something that shifts the balance.

 >I think I have demonstrated that there are enough questions and
 >ambiguities about this case, that statements such as "there is
 >absolutely no doubt whatever about the authenticity of these
 >photos" are insupportable.

Oh, really?

 >>Unless you can come up with negative evidence which so far has
 >>eluded critics of the case, your critics are going to say things
 >>like this. I generally agree with Dick's sentiment, though I
 >>would have phrased it differently.

 >I have come up with a great deal of negative evidence, but you
 >have chosen to ignore it. You seem to place all your faith in an
 >unknown, unpublished Brazilian naval report which you hope
 >someone in Brazil might be able to uncover, and the fact that
 >none of the ship's crew came forward to claim a mythical reward
 >from a hypothetical newspaper by saying that they didn't see
 >anything!

Do I detect a growing desperation on your part?

 >As for the value of the independent witnesses, see below, where
 >I provide evidence that only two people made direct statements
 >that they saw a UFO at the time Brauna took his photographs.
 >Both were friends of Barauna, and even then one of their
 >statements gives, to say the least, less than wholehearted
 >support.

Oh, boy.

 >>Known named witnesses to the Trindade UFO photographed
 >>by A. Barauna:

 >>Cdr. Carlos Alberto Bacellar, director of the Trindade IGY station
 >
 >"I was not a witness to the event because at that moment I was
 >in my cabin ... " Direct quotation, taken from Olavo Fontes
 >report.

 >>Cdr. Paulo Moreira da Silva

 >Although he was on board the Almirante Saldhana at the time, it
 >is far from clear that he was a witness to the event. His
 >statement to Diario da Noite gives reasons why he believes the
 >object was not a weather balloon based on times of balloon
 >launches, but gives no indication that he was a witness.

Moreira's way of speaking does put an element of ambiguity into
this, I agree, though read in context the implication is that he
did see the UFO himself. In any event it is worth noting that in
February 22, 1958, interviews with reporters from the newspaper
O Journal and Diario na Noite, he states flatly that the "object
sighted in the skies of Trindade was not a weather balloon,
neither an American guided missile. I cannot yet give my
conclusions, for the data are being analyzed in a secret
evaluation of the Navy Ministry." In later press statements
Moreira stated emphatically that the photos were authentic and
the object unidentified.

 >>Lt. Homero Ribeiro

 >Named as a witness by Barauna. There seems to be no direct
 >statement from him

Do you have reason to believe that Barauna lied about this? Are
you aware of any statement from Ribeiro denying that he was a
witness? Remember, this was a well-publicized sighting, and
Ribeiro was surely well aware that he was being named as a
witness. Nothing to date has demonstrated any statement of
Barauna's to be dishonest. Unless you have specific reason to
think otherwise, I see no reason to question the identification.

Why is it that _nobody_ involved in the investigation believed
the incident to be a hoax, and that the hoax allegations all
come from persons removed by years and thousands of miles from
the event?

 >>Farias de Azeved

 >"The photographer Farias de Azevedo, who was more distant,
 >didn't come in time to get photos." From statement by Barauna.
 >No further mention of this person.

So?

 >>Almiro Barauna, photographer

 >Agreed

 >>Air Force Capt (ret.) Jose Teoboldo Viegas

 >Named as a witness and gives a statement. Although a friend of
 >Barauna, he is allowed to accompany the photographer to the
 >darkroom when he developed his film. Was he also required to
 >strip to his underpants to ensure there was no fraud?

According to the official Intelligence Report of Fleet-Admiral
de Carvalho, Chief of the Navy High Command (March 31, 1958):


"Finally, on January 16, 1958, at 1215 hours, another UFO
alarm was registered aboard the NE 'Almirante Saldanha,'
which was anchored close to the island. The ship was
preparing to depart and the crew was in the operation of
taking aboard the boat used in the trips to the Island. The
UFO alarm was given by members of the crew in the stern
and bow [that is, opposite ends] of the ship.

On that same occasion, a professional photographer, a
civilian [Barauna], who was on the deck, at the ship's
stern photographing the operation to take aboard the boat,
was alerted and had the opportunity to take the four
photographs enclosed.

After the sighting, the photographer took the film from
the camera in the presence of [Corvette-Capt.] Bacellar
and other officers; later, together with CC Bacellar, he
went to the ship's photo-lab dressed only in a shirt and
shorts; the processing lasted about 10 minutes and then
the negatives were examined by CC Bacellar. CC
Bacellar states that he first saw the UFO referred to in
the negatives mentioned since that first examination
with details which only the enlargements made
afterwards more clearly.

Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
members of the ship's crew who had witnessed the
phenomenon; they recognized the object appearing
in the photos as identical with the one they had sighted
in the air....

A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
sighted the object, including the photographer, civilians and
members of the ship's crew.

CC Bacellar also reported a phenomenon he had personally
observed, over the Island, for two times in different
occasions...."


As the above makes unmistakably clear, the Trindade UFO was
observed by two different groups of witnesses, one at the bow
(front), the other at the stern (rear). The group at the bow saw
it first and alerted the second group, which included Barauna.
In other words, others saw the UFO before the photographer did.

 >>Amilar Vieira Filho

 >Friend of Barauna and member of his underwater photography team.
 >Although he gives a statement which I quoted in an earlier
 >posting, it is curiously ambiguous: "First I want to make it
 >clear that I don't know if what I saw was really the so-called
 >flying saucer ... "

If this were anybody else, I'd say the above amounted to out-
and-out deceit. Since I know John, even if misguided, to be
an honest man, I will assume that it is his source, not himself,
that is responsible for this shameful distortion. Here is the rest
of the statement, which someone has neatly and conveniently
removed:

"What I saw, in fact, was an object of gray color anad oval in
shape when first sighted, which passed over the island and then
-- emitting a fluorescent light it didn't possess before - went
away toward the horizon and was gone, vanishing just on the
horizon line. Everything happened in just a few seconds, in no
more than 20 seconds, and for this reason I cannot give you more
details about the curious craft. It looked like an object with
polished surface and uniform color. I am sure it was not a
balloon, an airplane, or a seagull."

All Vieira Filho is doing in the first sentence is expressing
caution. He is _not_, the breathtaking misrepresentation
notwithstanding, denying that he saw a strange flying object
which did not seem to be any conventional phenomenon.

In short, there is no question that there were other witnesses,
that they saw the UFO in the photos (in fact, some saw it
_before_ the photographer himself), and that the Brazilian Navy
took the affair very seriously. Moreover, it found no reason to
doubt that the episode had taken place as reported. Even now,
four and a half decades later, no disconfirming evidence or
testimony has come to light. On February 24, 1958, Brazil's Navy
Minister, Adm. Alves Camera, went so far as to tell United
Press, in UP's paraphrase, "he didn't believe in flying saucers
before, but after Barauna's photographic evidence he was
convinced."

If this case is a hoax, it is one for which zero evidence has
yet to be produced. It remains an extraordinarily impressive UFO
case, and skeptics have yet to begin to demonstrate otherwise.

(Thanks, by the way, to Brad Sparks.)


Jerry Clark








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:29:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:19:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:13:19 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:50 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:19:21 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -050

John and patient, gentle listfolk:

 >I think we've got a new species here, the 'Straw Pelican'. It's
 >like the Straw Man that Jerry constantly accuses others of
 >creating. Of course no-one says "because you can't trust
 >eyewitness testimony you are free to reinvent the witness's
 >account". But any description of an event, especially where it
 >is a controversion one like an abduction by aliens or an
 >abduction by criminals, requires other testimony and evidence
 >before it can be accepted as an objective fact.

But of course if you reject the eyewitness testimony out of
hand, there is no need to look for further evidence, is there?
The case is closed almost before it can be opened. In the above,
you also manage to confuse two issues: perception and
interpretation. They are not the same, and your lazy conflation
of the two does serious inquiry no help at all.

No wonder you fail to understand why many of us go to such
length to separate UFO study from UFO theory, and why, in
practically every discussion about a UFO report, you can be
counted on - even when, as is nearly always the case, no one
else has - to start carrying on about the ETH, aliens, and the
like.

Witness testimony, of course, is freely reinvented when it
attests to something the skeptic rejects as impossible. (David
Hufford's book The Terror That Comes in the Night is devoted to
a meticulous examination of one example.) It is always easier to
"explain" something one has invented than to come to grips with
something that appears to be genuinely novel and puzzling, but
that lazy practice only reinforces our own prejudices and does
nothing to advance our knowledge.

We see it happening all the time, and it is one of the most
strikingly apparent psychosocial phenomena of the controversy
about anomalous and quasi-anomalous experiences. If so-called
psychosocial ufology were what it pretends to be - as opposed to
a euphemism for debunking ufology and a continuation of the
disbelief tradition - it would conscientiously investigate
issues like the psychosociology of anomaly- avoidance, rather
than be an egregious practicer of it.

Because you are starting to try my patience with your chronic
avoidance of the issue at stake here, I am disinclined to
continue this thread. At first it was amusing to watch you
dropping red herrings into the rhetorical stream. Now it's just
a waste of time that I really ought to be spending on writing an
already-overdue book.

For the rest of you out there, let me restate the simple fact
that little Sarah Ahn's eyewitness testimony was strikingly
accurate. I cited the case to show that, contrary to what
pelicanists want you to believe, eyewitness testimony, while
imperfect, is far from routinely wrong or victim to radical
misperception. Moreover, as Catherine Reason shows in a separate
posting, the research that purports to show otherwise is open to
very serious dispute.

Let's repeat what the New York Times piece said in its opening
sentence, so that nobody is fooled by the fiction that the
eyewitness testimony was not central to the solving of the case:
"The observations of a 5-year- old girl, the only witness in the
abduction of Samantha Runnion, have emerged as critical in the
investigation that led to the arrest of Alejandro Avila in the
kidnapping and murder case." Because her description was so
accurate, acquaintances of the killer were able to recognize him
from the sketch in circulation and lead police to him.

While pelicanists have a great deal - one might say everything -
  invested in the myth that eyewitness testimony can be dismissed
out of hand (except, of course, when it is accurate enough to
point the investigator to an IFO), real-life experience tells us
otherwise. Instead of frantic rationalizations, bogus analogies,
and desperate efforts to change the subject, pelicanists would
be better off to shed their feathers and start proving their
intellectual seriousness, as opposed to demonstrating their
devotion to debunking ideology at any cost.

If we are to understand anomalous experiences and ultimately
find a way to explain them, we could do worse than to listen to
those who have had those experiences. As opposed, say, to the
voices in our own heads.


Jerry Clark








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Linda Kerth <LINDAKERTH@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:26:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:22:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -050

 >For a scholarly study of eyewitness testimony in cases of
 >anomalous experience, there is David Hufford's classic work,
 >which is harsh, specific, and empirical in its criticisms of
 >sloppy claims, as often as not buttressed by unexamined cultural
 >prejudices, of eyewitness unreliability. This is an area in
 >which debunkers as much as proponents need to be far more
 >careful than they have been in the past. The Runnion case should
 >serve as yet another cautionary tale to all who would dismiss
 >"anecdotal testimony" as inherently worthless.


Okay, would someone please give the full reference? I checked
Hufford on a few book markets (e.g. Amazon) and could find no
entry. Could we have the title of the work and the pub date
please?

Thanks

Linda









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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:44:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:24:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:18:28 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Hi, Jim,

 >>It is totally unreliable only when it attests to something
 >>extraordinary and otherwise resistant to explanation (such as a
 >>close encounter with a daylight disc); then you can't trust
 >>"anecdotal testimony" - fill in Loftus citation here. But that
 >>same anecdotal testimony becomes amazingly accurate when
 >>witnesses are describing something that can be explained as an
 >>IFO from the description.

 >>The usual pelican logic, in other words. Since UFOs don't exist,
 >>witnesses are mistaken by definition... except when they're
 >>right by definition, as when they see IFOs. Where would pelicans
 >>be without their tautologies?

 >I've been reading this thread with interest, and Jerry, I have
 >to ask, are you suggesting that we _can_ rely on eyewitness
 >testimony to build a credible case for nuts-and-bolts UFOs?

Of course, though there is eyewitness testimony and there is
eyewitness testimony. We're talking about the best of it, of
course, for example that with multiple and independent witnesses
(though there are good single-witness cases as well; but you
know what I'm saying). But it can't stop there, of course. It
is, obviously, where we begin, though. Such testimony by now
should be enough to establish the presence of a strange anomaly.
It cannot prove any particular _theory_ about the nature of that
anomaly, only point us to areas of inquiry which we can pursue
with all tools available, including -- prominently - physical
science. As I have written on a number of occasions, the final
answers probably await resolution through well-funded and
comprehension research into CE2s.

 >The
 >pelicanists' contention that eyewitness testimony alone is
 >nothing more than an interesting anecdote is well-taken here.

Not necessarily. It all depends on what the phenomenon is. For
example, when Scientific American asked Australian physicist
John Lowke why he believed a particular anomalous claim to be
true, this is what he said:

"Though... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I feel
that there is no question that [it] exists. I have talked to six
eyewitnesses of the phenomena and think there is no reasonable
doubt as to the authenticity of their observations. Furthermore,
the reports are all remarkably similar and have common features
with the hundreds of observations that appear in the
literature."

The SA writer didn't lift a metaphorical eyebrow. And he or she
didn't for the simple reason that Lowke was talking about ball
lightning, not about UFOs. I don't have to tell you what would
have happened to him if he had used the above reasoning to
justify belief in the existence of UFOs. In other words, there's
anecdotal testimony, and then there's anecdotal testimony.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark








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   Jul > Jul 25

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:25:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:28:14 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


Bob,

 >>>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >>The usual pelican logic, in other words. Since UFOs don't exist,
 >>witnesses are mistaken by definition... except when they're
 >>right by definition, as when they see IFOs. Where would pelicans
 >>be without their tautologies?

 >Speaking of tautologies, can you point to a citation where
 >anyone on this List claimed that, "witness testimony is to be
 >considered totally unreliable," other than yourself?

I am shocked. I have never seen _anything_ by you that made the
point that eyewitness testimony can be reliable, except recently
in the matter of IFOs, where Condon's findings underscore its
startling accuracy. Instead, I have seen you routinely
discarding testimony in puzzling cases, including - most
recently - Nash/ Fortenberry (their testimony notwithstanding,
they saw meteors) and earlier - in an even more breathtaking
leap - Coyne (the crew's testimony notwithstanding, they saw a
fireball).

 >Please be specific with your citation.

See above. Now, please provide a specific citation in which you
have characterized eyewitness testimony in an unexplained UFO
case, as opposed to an explained IFO case, as essentially
accurate.

And if you believe eyewitness testimony to be accurate, why all
the verbiage expended on trying to make us believe it's
irrelevant - the police's explicit testmony notwithstanding - to
the resolution of the Runnion case?

The pelicanist tautology remains:

Witness testimony: Accurate when leading to resolution of
stimulus as prosaic phenomenon. Inaccurate when attesting to
something highly anomalous, in which case it is mistaken and can
be discarded while a conventional explanation is conjured up for
what witnesses "really" saw.


For pelican-free skies,

Jerry Clark








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:40:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:23:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Linda Kerth <LINDAKERTH@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:26:24 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:46:20 -050

 >Okay, would someone please give the full reference? I checked
 >Hufford on a few book markets (e.g. Amazon) and could find no
 >entry. Could we have the title of the work and the pub date
 >please?

David J. Hufford. 'The Terror That Comes in the Night: An
Experience-Centered Study of Supernatural Assault Traditions'.
Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1982.

In my opinion, this is as important a book on anomalous
experience as has ever been written.  Anyone with an interest in
the subject should read it.


Jerry Clark








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                   Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:02:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:26:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Hebert


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:19:42 +0200
 >Subject: Crop Circle In Basel Area

 >New place of pilgrimage: a grain circle in the Baselbiet

What countries have never reported crop circles within their
boundaries?

Sometimes the truth is where you don't look. ;>


A. Hebert







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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:27:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:27:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:44:37 -0500

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:37:27 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:37:12 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:38:47 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case


Patient and gentle listfolk:

Reading my posting just now, I realized that a major point needs
to be made here, concerning the essential incoherence of the
pelicanist argument against the Trindade sighting and
photographs. In point of fact, it was made originally by APRO in
its extended coverage - quoting at length from press accounts
and official documents - as the story was beginning to emerge in
the English-speaking world.

As repeated statements make clear, there were many witnesses to
the UFO's presence. Not a single statement from an investigating
officer - or from a "witness" asserting that, all other
testimony notwithstanding, no UFO appeared while he was in a
position to view it - denies that. The witnesses, as we know
from Navy documents, were in two groups, one at the front and
the other at the rear of the ship.

So, that being known, why in the world are John Rimmer and other
critics still dropping sinister hints that the photographer,
Barauna, faked the pics? See below:

 >>I think I have demonstrated that there are enough questions and
 >>ambiguities about this case, that statements such as "there is
 >>absolutely no doubt whatever about the authenticity of these
 >>Named as a witness and gives a statement. Although a friend of
 >>Barauna, he is allowed to accompany the photographer to the
 >>darkroom when he developed his film. Was he also required to
 >>strip to his underpants to ensure there was no fraud?

What "fraud"? APRO lays this incoherent charge to rest by
stating the obvious problem:

"We must consider the possibility of a photomontage.... Inasmuch
as the witnesses had already observed the object and
subsequently the negatives showing the object, it is not likely
that Barauna would have gone to the trouble to attempt another
and better photo by trickery. The Navy's HND technician affirmed
that the negatives were natural [i.e., unretouched].

"There is but one avenue left, and that is the possibility that
Barauna performed a photomontage prior to the Trindade
excitement. But then we must assume that he was able to 'mock
up' a model UFO, position it on film, and then photograph the
Trindade Island skyline over it. But that is not a montage - it
is simply a double-exposure, and how did he know what would be
seen and testified to later by the people on deck of the
Almirante Saldanha? A photomontage would be a combination of two
photos, and how would he know what was to be seen? And how did
he substitute this hypothetical film? Even if he did make it up
ahead of time? And how did he know just exactly how the object
would be positioned so that his pictures would coincide with
what was being seen?"

Well, there is an explanation, obviously: Barauna was psychic.
Via precognitive vision he had foreknowledge that a UFO was to
appear that day over Trindade. His ESP told him exactly what it
looked like and exactly where it would be. So he skillfully
faked pictures which depicted exactly what the witnesses saw,
and his psychic vision was so clear that he was able to fool the
witnesses into thinking (as one official investigative report
states) "they recognized the object appearing in the photos as
identical with the one they had sighted in the air."

See? You can always explain a UFO case if you just put your mind
- or your psychic powers - to it.

Jerry Clark








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:12:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:30:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:18:28 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>The
 >>pelicanists' contention that eyewitness testimony alone is
 >>nothing more than an interesting anecdote is well-taken here.

 >Not necessarily. It all depends on what the phenomenon is. For
 >example, when Scientific American asked Australian physicist
 >John Lowke why he believed a particular anomalous claim to be
 >true, this is what he said:

 >"Though... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I feel
 >that there is no question that [it] exists. I have talked to six
 >eyewitnesses of the phenomena and think there is no reasonable
 >doubt as to the authenticity of their observations. Furthermore,
 >the reports are all remarkably similar and have common features
 >with the hundreds of observations that appear in the
 >literature."

 >The SA writer didn't lift a metaphorical eyebrow. And he or she
 >didn't for the simple reason that Lowke was talking about ball
 >lightning, not about UFOs. I don't have to tell you what would
 >have happened to him if he had used the above reasoning to
 >justify belief in the existence of UFOs. In other words, there's
 >anecdotal testimony, and then there's anecdotal testimony.

And I think it's as sloppy an argument for ball-lightning as it
would be for UFOs. If the Scientific American journo didn't lift
an eyebrow about it, it... well... tells us more about the
journalist than it does about ball-lighning (or UFOs)

 >Cordially,

 >Jerry Clark

Jovially

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:20:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Hall


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:50:00 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >>From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >Paul:

 >Fascinating information. I wonder what the role was, if any, for
 >meteorological balloons with these AAA units. Considering the
 >high-angle of fire windage might have been important, although
 >probably not so much if radar or searchlights were used. These
 >are used with current arty. I wonder if they might have been
 >used with flares or lights for ranging.


Pretty transparent, Bob. Trying to force-fit a meteorological
balloon into the picture to explain the "UFO", are we? Good
luck! Must have been a big sucker. Maybe a Moby Dick or Skyhook
travelling backwards in time and confused witnesses who can't
recognize their arse from their elbow anyway. Non potest, ergo
non est.


- Dick








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   Jul > Jul 25

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:55:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:34:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:55:09 +0100

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

  <snip>

 >After all these years, I can't understand why people such as you
 >describe, spend so much time in a subject they feel or know does
 >not actually exist?

Roy:

Personally, I'm just interesting in the astronomical and related
stimuli for many UFO reports.

You see, many of us are just fascinated with IFOs.


Clear skies,

Bob Young


"Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk
  Woop, Woop, Woop, Woop"
  --Curley Howard 'Men in Black' - 1934








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:37:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
 >any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
 >the testimony of people who say saw a meteor? I mean after all
 >unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
 >evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
 >DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
 >other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
 >with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
 >people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?

Come on, people, let's get real. We know what we're up against.
Meteors are proven to exist, UFOs (as nuts-and bolts craft) are
not. Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
into the hallowed halls of science. I can live with the fact
that eyewitness testimony is not extraordinary proof of UFOs
being nuts-and-bolts craft. Even skeptibunkers will grudgingly
admit that there are some fascinating reports out there that
defy facile explanation (uh, you DO, don't you); where we differ
is that we think the sheer number and quality of reports bears
further scrutiny, whereas they seem to be satisfied that,
because 90% of cases are explainable, therefore 100% are
_probably_ explainable.


==JJS==








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:42:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:44:21 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:18:28 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Hi, Jim,

 >>I've been reading this thread with interest, and Jerry, I have
 >>to ask, are you suggesting that we _can_ rely on eyewitness
 >>testimony to build a credible case for nuts-and-bolts UFOs?

<snip>

 >Such testimony by now
 >should be enough to establish the presence of a strange anomaly.

On this point we agree wholeheartedly. _However_, I don't think
that this is reason enough to let all, or even the best,
eyewitness accounts go completely unchallenged. We do know that
some descriptions have proven unreliable in the past. If an
alternate interpretation is available, it should at least be
presented as a hypothetical. This, of course should be done on a
case-by-case basis, and I do challenge the debunkers on their
use of blanket statements like "well, eye-witness testimony is
inherently unreliable" and "people will see what they want to
see" as a basis for dismissing the unexplained residuum of
cases.

My only point is that I don't want us to seem to be arguing that
we should just blithely accept eyewitness accounts at their
face-value.


==JJS==








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                   Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:05:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:44:08 -0400
Subject: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa


Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992589








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:45:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:50 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >I am shocked. I have never seen _anything_ by you that made the
 >point that eyewitness testimony can be reliable, except recently
 >in the matter of IFOs, where Condon's findings underscore its
 >startling accuracy.

Jerry:

Obviously eyewitness testimony can be reliable, and is reliable
about many things. It can also be unreliable. Does anybody doubt
this? Only you, who absurdly claimed that others have claimed
that it is to be considered totally unreliable.

I repeat, can you point to a citation from the archives of this
fine List where anybody ever claimed this? Ever?

[pelican, circling] Skuak, Skuak,

Bob Young








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                 Re: Setting the Record Straight - Again! -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 00:36:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:49:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Record Straight - Again! -


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:30:35 -0400
 >Subject: Setting the Record Straight - Again!

 >Hello All,

 >Because of a negative and _vicious_ smear campaign that has
 >been launched against me by a couple of individuals, I find
 >myself in the uncomfortable and awkward position of having to
 >publicly defend myself.

 >Briefly; e-mails  which contain a string of malicious lies about
 >me have been circulated (privately) to List members and others.
 >I have no idea how many people this attempt at character
 >assassination may have reached. In it, I am being accused of
 >horrendous (and on the face of it 'absurd') acts, such as:

 >... that I "threatened the livelihood of an abductee" because
 >they "would not bow to my will."

 >... that I have "called abductees at their homes and cursed them
 >out."

 >... that Errol Bruce-Knapp has been helping in "getting the word
 >out" about me - privately - to "people who need to know" these
 >things about me.

 >I don't think I need to assist these mean-spirited and self-
 >serving 'character disorders' by listing all of the _libelous_
 >lies that they have been circulating about me. Suffice it to say
 >that are _all_ destructive fabrications, and made-up nonsense
 >intended solely to destroy any credibility and good will that I
 >may have garnered over the years with members of this List, the
 >abductees and the UFO community at large.

<snip>

 >Again, with regrets for taking up the valuable time of the List
 >members.

 >John Velez,

 >_Besieged_

 >Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
 >for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition

Hello John and fellow Listerions,

I received that email privately. I was surprised and disturbed
with that procedure. The relationship between you and the other
party is your business and not mine. I feel it was underhanded
and childish for the third party to send me such a post behind
your back. I'm sorry that it led to you posting the above.

I take no position in this matter. If asked by you and another
party to participate I would suspend judgement until I have
thoroughly examined all the evidence and received answers to any
questions of fact. The third party discredited himself by the
way this matter was handled.


Josh










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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:26:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:52:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>

 >>>Any witness to anything _except_ UFO or UFO related abduction is
 >>>considered to be dependable, reliable, and good. However if the
 >>>same witness claimed to have also seen a UFO skeptics would
 >>>instantly tell us about the unreliability of witness, why it is
 >>>a hoax, misidentification of natural phenomena and so on and
 >>>should be disregarded for various asundry reasons.

I'm so pleased that there are so many people telling UFO
sceptics what they're supposed to think. If you just make things
up like this, it saves having to deal with real people and theur
*real* views.

 >>If you had actually read the report of the case - easily
 >>available on the Internet even five thosand miles away in
 >>Britain - you will have seen that the police did not rely solely
 >>on the eyewitness evidence of the little girl. This was
 >>valuable, but it served to lead them to DNA evidence which
 >>appears to be the basis of their case.

 >Actually if you had seen the various excerpts of the interviews,
 >you would have seen the sheriff admit that he made the arrest
 >_before_ any alleged DNA match. Meaning he didn't rely upon so
 >called DNA evidence to make the arrest.

Obviously he made the arrest before he made the DNA match. How
else would he have been able to get the suspect's DNA sample?

 >>No UFO case has evidence one hundredth as convincing as forensic
 >>DNA evidence.

 >The basis for the arrest wasn't the DNA evidence, at least
 >according to the law enforcement folks.

No, but I'm sure the basis for the charge, and the evidence in
the subsequent case will rely heavily on the DNA samples.

 >>>Police and other law enforcement don't seem to mind using, and
 >>>relying upon witness testimony. The skeptibunkers will probably
 >>>have an elaborate tale about why this is all different then the
 >>>sighting of a UFO.

Police seldom rely solely on witness testimony. Without other
forensic evidence, an eyewitness report on its own will seldom
stand up in court.

 >>Yes, we're skeptibunkers, so you don't have to bother putting a
 >>case up against us. Just using the word as a mantra is,
 >>apparently, enough to demolish the critic's case. How
 >>convenient.

 >In the drivel and deflection, I see you are still unable to come
 >up with any kind of story as to why a 5 year old girls witness
 >testimony should be considered reliable (point, I consider her
 >testimony to be reliable) but witness testimony involving UFO
 >are instantly dismissed, yawned and burped at by the
 >skeptibunker crowd.

The girls evidence was proven - repeat, proven - reliable by the
subsequent forensic evidence. I don't know if there are any
lawyers on this list, but I'd be interested to read their views
on the chances of a conviction in this case, based solely on the
evidence of the little girl.

<snip>

 >>>The bottom line question to the skepti bunkers: Is witness
 >>>testimony to be considered reliable whether it involves an
 >>>abduction of a little girl or UFO related? Remember what ever
 >>>criteria of reliability for witness testimony can also be
 >>>applied to UFO witnesses as well.

I think I've already answered this :

 >>Witness testimony is to be considered reliable when it is backed
 >>up by solid evidence, as it appears to have been in this case,
 >>thanks to good police work.

 >Since you do apparently do like eyewitness, please explain under
 >what standards of testimony and proof (remember all the police
 >essentially had was the testimony from the little girl and a
 >drawing) would be required from a witness in a UFO case. Further
 >do you consider witness testimony in UFO cases to be reliable?
 >If a witness came to you and said they saw a meteor in the sky,
 >describe what they saw would you be inclined to accept, or
 >reject the witness testimony?

If a person came up to me and told me they had seen a meteor I
would be likely to believe them, in the absence of any
information to the contrary. However if I knew the person had
previously lied about seeing astronomical phenomena, or if they
had then said the meteor had spun round in circles and whistled
"Yankee Doodle", I would be less inclined to believe them.

 >Its been my observation (I may be wrong here and hope John
 >surprises me with his answer to the earlier questions) that the
 >skeptibunker crowd embraces all witness testimony as long as it
 >doesn't involve UFO. Once UFO enters they start raising the
 >bar/standards of proof.

Not knowing what is meant by this stupid phrase "skeptibunker",
nor recognising who it is meant to apply to, I am unable to
answer your question on their behalf. I personally am prepared
to embrace all witness testimony which can be independently
confirmed. My standards for such confirmation may be rather
higher than some other peoples'.

 >Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
 >any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
 >the testimony of people who say saw a meteor?

What about the early 19th century scientist who are supposed to
have refused to believe eyewitness reports of meteors? This is
constantly being trotted out as an example of scientific myopia.

 > I mean after all
 >unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
 >evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
 >DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
 >other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
 >with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
 >people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?

Ah, well, we're back to Trindade Island again, and - well, it's
getting very late, well past my bedtime ...

 >Cheers,

 >Robert

Goodnight, boys and girls, zzzzz ....


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 26

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:54:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:29:26 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:13:19 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >John and patient, gentle listfolk:

 >>I think we've got a new species here, the 'Straw Pelican'. It's
 >>like the Straw Man that Jerry constantly accuses others of
 >>creating. Of course no-one says "because you can't trust
 >>eyewitness testimony you are free to reinvent the witness's
 >>account". But any description of an event, especially where it
 >>is a controversion one like an abduction by aliens or an
 >>abduction by criminals, requires other testimony and evidence
 >>before it can be accepted as an objective fact.

 >But of course if you reject the eyewitness testimony out of
 >hand, there is no need to look for further evidence, is there?

But I don't reject the eyewitness testimony out of hand, do I?
Despite my request for you to give examples you have failed to
do so,

 >The case is closed almost before it can be opened. In the above,
 >you also manage to confuse two issues: perception and
 >interpretation. They are not the same, and your lazy conflation
 >of the two does serious inquiry no help at all.

The only way in which eyewitness testimony can be validated is
by checking the report with other available evidence and seeing
how it stacks up.

 >No wonder you fail to understand why many of us go to such
 >length to separate UFO study from UFO theory, and why, in
 >practically every discussion about a UFO report, you can be
 >counted on - even when, as is nearly always the case, no one
 >else has - to start carrying on about the ETH, aliens, and the
 >like.

I do apologise for occasionaly raising the subject of ETH,
aliens and the like on a discussion list devoted to UFOs. I have
previously commented that I find the hard-line ETH approach more
intellectually honest than Jerry's attitude, which seems to be
that UFOs may be solid, constructed craft under intelligent
control, which display a technology that can not be replicated
on Earth, but apparently are not extraterrestrial spaceships.

<snip>

 >Because you are starting to try my patience with your chronic
 >avoidance of the issue at stake here, I am disinclined to
 >continue this thread. At first it was amusing to watch you
 >dropping red herrings into the rhetorical stream. Now it's just
 >a waste of time that I really ought to be spending on writing an
 >already-overdue book.

I wouldn't want to delay you.

 >For the rest of you out there, let me restate the simple fact
 >that little Sarah Ahn's eyewitness testimony was strikingly
 >accurate. I cited the case to show that, contrary to what
 >pelicanists want you to believe, eyewitness testimony, while
 >imperfect, is far from routinely wrong or victim to radical
 >misperception. Moreover, as Catherine Reason shows in a separate
 >posting, the research that purports to show otherwise is open to
 >very serious dispute.

 >Let's repeat what the New York Times piece said in its opening
 >sentence, so that nobody is fooled by the fiction that the
 >eyewitness testimony was not central to the solving of the case:
 >"The observations of a 5-year- old girl, the only witness in the
 >abduction of Samantha Runnion, have emerged as critical in the
 >investigation that led to the arrest of Alejandro Avila in the
 >kidnapping and murder case." Because her description was so
 >accurate, acquaintances of the killer were able to recognize him
 >from the sketch in circulation and lead police to him.

Yes, I don't doubt all this for a minute, and Sarah deserves all
the credit due to her. But you procede to go from this accepted
fact, to a wild flight of fancy in which there are a group of
wicked pelicans who will not believe anything anyone tells them.

I dare say I could trawl the newspapers of our two great nations
and find numerous examples of people who have been wrongly
identified by witnesses who were quite sure of their
descriptions. There have been any number of people who have been
wrongly convicted on the basis of such eyewitness evidence. If
you like, whenever I find such a miscarriage of justice I shall
post it on this forum, although I suspect our genial host might
soon put a stop to me.

But what would be the point? Some eyewitnesses give good,
accurate accounts, whether they're five or fifty. Others,
irrespective of age, give false and misleading account -
  sometimes even the same person. So what? It's what's discovered
afterwards that tells us whether the eyewitness was accurate.

 >While pelicanists have a great deal - one might say everything -
 > invested in the myth that eyewitness testimony can be dismissed
 >out of hand (except, of course, when it is accurate enough to
 >point the investigator to an IFO), real-life experience tells us
 >otherwise. Instead of frantic rationalizations, bogus analogies,
 >and desperate efforts to change the subject, pelicanists would
 >be better off to shed their feathers and start proving their
 >intellectual seriousness, as opposed to demonstrating their
 >devotion to debunking ideology at any cost.

Jerry, you're rambling again. You're just making this stuff up.
I think a good subject for psycho-social study mught be the
over-reaction of mid-West UFO writers when people start pointing
out the fallacies in their arguments. Just what does the above
paragraph mean? Of course, any meaning in it is largely obscured
because you persist in this "pelicanism" nonsense. Perhaps if
you stopped attacking mythical birds which exist solely in your
own imagination, and started responding to what real people are
saying and writing, we might get somewhere.

 >If we are to understand anomalous experiences and ultimately
 >find a way to explain them, we could do worse than to listen to
 >those who have had those experiences. As opposed, say, to the
 >voices in our own heads.

The only voices in heads I can detect around here are the
mutterings of your imaginary pelicans who whisper nonsense such
as "pelicanists have a great deal - one might say everything -
  invested in the myth that eyewitness testimony can be dismissed
out of hand". Don't believe them Jerry, they're just trying to
make you look foolish.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 26

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:26:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:56:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:44:37 -0500

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:37:27 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>Well, John, it's up to you to provide the evidence that so far
 >>>you have failed to produce. Until you do, your critics will say
 >>>things like this. In the weighing of the evidence for the
 >>>authenticity of the Trindade sighting and photographs, the
 >>>scales are tipped entirely in one direction, unless you can find
 >>>something that shifts the balance.

 >>I think I have demonstrated that there are enough questions and
 >>ambiguities about this case, that statements such as "there is
 >>absolutely no doubt whatever about the authenticity of these
 >>photos" are insupportable.

 >Oh, really?

Yes

 >>>Unless you can come up with negative evidence which so far has
 >>>eluded critics of the case, your critics are going to say things
 >>>like this. I generally agree with Dick's sentiment, though I
 >>>would have phrased it differently.

 >>I have come up with a great deal of negative evidence, but you
 >>have chosen to ignore it. You seem to place all your faith in an
 >>unknown, unpublished Brazilian naval report which you hope
 >>someone in Brazil might be able to uncover, and the fact that
 >>none of the ship's crew came forward to claim a mythical reward
 >>from a hypothetical newspaper by saying that they didn't see
 >>anything!

 >Do I detect a growing desperation on your part?

No

 >>As for the value of the independent witnesses, see below, where
 >>I provide evidence that only two people made direct statements
 >>that they saw a UFO at the time Brauna took his photographs.
 >>Both were friends of Barauna, and even then one of their
 >>statements gives, to say the least, less than wholehearted
 >>support.

 >Oh, boy.

Which part of that paragraph do you not understand?

 >>>Known named witnesses to the Trindade UFO photographed
 >>>by A. Barauna:

 >>>Cdr. Carlos Alberto Bacellar, director of the Trindade IGY station

 >>"I was not a witness to the event because at that moment I was
 >>in my cabin ... " Direct quotation, taken from Olavo Fontes
 >>report.

No comment, Jerry?

 >>>Cdr. Paulo Moreira da Silva

 >>Although he was on board the Almirante Saldhana at the time, it
 >>is far from clear that he was a witness to the event. His
 >>statement to Diario da Noite gives reasons why he believes the
 >>object was not a weather balloon based on times of balloon
 >>launches, but gives no indication that he was a witness.

 >Moreira's way of speaking does put an element of ambiguity into
 >this, I agree, though read in context the implication is that he
 >did see the UFO himself. In any event it is worth noting that in
 >February 22, 1958, interviews with reporters from the newspaper
 >O Journal and Diario na Noite, he states flatly that the "object
 >sighted in the skies of Trindade was not a weather balloon,
 >neither an American guided missile. I cannot yet give my
 >conclusions, for the data are being analyzed in a secret
 >evaluation of the Navy Ministry." In later press statements
 >Moreira stated emphatically that the photos were authentic and
 >the object unidentified.

I have read his statement in context, and I find nothing in it
to suggest that he saw the object himself. The statements above
are clearly based on the records of the weather balloons
launches. I cannot agree that there is any implication that
Moreira saw the object himself, and his "way of speaking"
strongly suggests he did not. There was plenty of opportunity
for him to say that he saw the object; he chose not to do so.
The most likely reason for this is because he did not see it.

 >>>Lt. Homero Ribeiro

 >>Named as a witness by Barauna. There seems to be no direct
 >>statement from him

 >Do you have reason to believe that Barauna lied about this?

I don't know. It might be possible. If the photo *was* a hoax,
by definition he would have lied about it.

 >Are
 >you aware of any statement from Ribeiro denying that he was a
 >witness? Remember, this was a well-publicized sighting, and
 >Ribeiro was surely well aware that he was being named as a
 >witness. Nothing to date has demonstrated any statement of
 >Barauna's to be dishonest. Unless you have specific reason to
 >think otherwise, I see no reason to question the identification.

I'm sure you don't. However it is impossible, based on this
date, to describe Ribiero as a first hand witness. He may have
had a number of reasons not to come forward.

 >Why is it that _nobody_ involved in the investigation believed
 >the incident to be a hoax, and that the hoax allegations all
 >come from persons removed by years and thousands of miles from
 >the event?

Maybe they just thought that after the President of the Republic
got interested in this, it might be best for their careers if
they just kept their heads below the parapet and remained
silent. Sheer speculation, I know, but you asked for
suggestions.

 >>>Farias de Azeved

 >>"The photographer Farias de Azevedo, who was more distant,
 >>didn't come in time to get photos." From statement by Barauna.
 >>No further mention of this person.

 >So?

So not a first hand witness. The 'evidence' that he was a
witness is based solely on Barauna's statement.

 >>>Almiro Barauna, photographer

 >>Agreed

 >>>Air Force Capt (ret.) Jose Teoboldo Viegas

 >>Named as a witness and gives a statement. Although a friend of
 >>Barauna, he is allowed to accompany the photographer to the
 >>darkroom when he developed his film. Was he also required to
 >>strip to his underpants to ensure there was no fraud?

 >According to the official Intelligence Report of Fleet-Admiral
 >de Carvalho, Chief of the Navy High Command (March 31, 1958):

 >"Finally, on January 16, 1958, at 1215 hours, another UFO
 >alarm was registered aboard the NE 'Almirante Saldanha,'
 >which was anchored close to the island. The ship was
 >preparing to depart and the crew was in the operation of
 >taking aboard the boat used in the trips to the Island. The
 >UFO alarm was given by members of the crew in the stern
 >and bow [that is, opposite ends] of the ship.

The person at the bow of the ship is presumably the ship's
dentist. Barauna mentions him in his interview with Fontes:
"Lieutenant Homero, the ship's dentist, came from the bow
towards us, running and yelling about an object he was sighting
... " This tells us nothing new. We have no statement from him,
as I point out above.

 >On that same occasion, a professional photographer, a
 >civilian [Barauna], who was on the deck, at the ship's
 >stern photographing the operation to take aboard the boat,
 >was alerted and had the opportunity to take the four
 >photographs enclosed.

 >After the sighting, the photographer took the film from
 >the camera in the presence of [Corvette-Capt.] Bacellar
 >and other officers; later, together with CC Bacellar, he
 >went to the ship's photo-lab dressed only in a shirt and
 >shorts; the processing lasted about 10 minutes and then
 >the negatives were examined by CC Bacellar. CC
 >Bacellar states that he first saw the UFO referred to in
 >the negatives mentioned since that first examination
 >with details which only the enlargements made
 >afterwards more clearly.

I'm not sure what this has got to do with my comment on Viegas.
Are you suggesting that Viegas did not go into the darkroom with
Barauna and that it was Bacellar? I quote: "Finally he and Capt.
Viegas entered the ship's darkroom together, while Cmdr.
Bacellar (who had not been on deck when the sighting occurred)
waited outside the door." Quotation from, er, Jerome Clark.  I
ask again, was Viegas asked to undertake the same security
procedures as Barauna? The answer appears to be no; so having
the latter strip to his underwear was pointless.

 >Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
 >members of the ship's crew who had witnessed the
 >phenomenon; they recognized the object appearing
 >in the photos as identical with the one they had sighted
 >in the air....

 >A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
 >sighted the object, including the photographer, civilians and
 >members of the ship's crew.

No indication that these are any other than the persons named
above.

 >CC Bacellar also reported a phenomenon he had personally
 >observed, over the Island, for two times in different
 >occasions...."

Not disputed. In some ways these sightings are more interesting
than the photographs. We also of course have the photograph
taken by the sergeant which has never been released.

 >As the above makes unmistakably clear, the Trindade UFO was
 >observed by two different groups of witnesses, one at the bow
 >(front), the other at the stern (rear). The group at the bow saw
 >it first and alerted the second group, which included Barauna.
 >In other words, others saw the UFO before the photographer did.

The only evidence for this is Barauna's statement.

 >>>Amilar Vieira Filho

 >>Friend of Barauna and member of his underwater photography team.
 >>Although he gives a statement which I quoted in an earlier
 >>posting, it is curiously ambiguous: "First I want to make it
 >>clear that I don't know if what I saw was really the so-called
 >>flying saucer ... "

 >If this were anybody else, I'd say the above amounted to out-
 >and-out deceit. Since I know John, even if misguided, to be
 >an honest man, I will assume that it is his source, not himself,
 >that is responsible for this shameful distortion. Here is the rest
 >of the statement, which someone has neatly and conveniently
 >removed:

 >"What I saw, in fact, was an object of gray color anad oval in
 >shape when first sighted, which passed over the island and then
 >-- emitting a fluorescent light it didn't possess before - went
 >away toward the horizon and was gone, vanishing just on the
 >horizon line. Everything happened in just a few seconds, in no
 >more than 20 seconds, and for this reason I cannot give you more
 >details about the curious craft. It looked like an object with
 >polished surface and uniform color. I am sure it was not a
 >balloon, an airplane, or a seagull."

Hardly shameful distortion, as I have already quoted this
statement in a previous post in order to point out its
ambiguity, particularly in the timescale involved. It is by no
means a clear endorsement of Barauna's version of the events,
even though it comes from the person closest to him both
physically and by association.

 >All Vieira Filho is doing in the first sentence is expressing
 >caution. He is _not_, the breathtaking misrepresentation
 >notwithstanding, denying that he saw a strange flying object
 >which did not seem to be any conventional phenomenon.

 >In short, there is no question that there were other witnesses,
 >that they saw the UFO in the photos (in fact, some saw it
 >_before_ the photographer himself), and that the Brazilian Navy
 >took the affair very seriously. Moreover, it found no reason to
 >doubt that the episode had taken place as reported. Even now,
 >four and a half decades later, no disconfirming evidence or
 >testimony has come to light. On February 24, 1958, Brazil's Navy
 >Minister, Adm. Alves Camera, went so far as to tell United
 >Press, in UP's paraphrase, "he didn't believe in flying saucers
 >before, but after Barauna's photographic evidence he was
 >convinced."

I'm sure UP's paraphrase is faultless, but I would like to see
his original statement.

 >If this case is a hoax, it is one for which zero evidence has
 >yet to be produced. It remains an extraordinarily impressive UFO
 >case, and skeptics have yet to begin to demonstrate otherwise.

I have said it a number of times before, but I may as well say
it again: I am not at this point arguing that Barauna's
photgraphs were hoaxed, although I do not deny this as a
possibility. I am simply pointing to a number of ambiguities in
the case which prevent it from being put forward as a cast-iron
multi-witness case. The only reason this case has the status it
does in ufology is because of the alleged number of witnesses.
With two or three exceptions - all of whom have qualifications
that must be cast over their evidence - these witnesses still
remain unnamed and unquoted.

Just to drop a fresh red herring into the already overflowing
stream:

In Fontes report he says: "The reports from other civilian
observers aboard the NE Almirante Saldhana were also printed in
the press. One of them came from Mr Mauro Andrade emplyee of the
londo Bank of South America and member of Barauna's group. In an
interview published in the newspaper O Globo (Feb 22, 1958) he
said 'I didn't witness the sighting because I was inside the
ship, not on deck ... '"

Oh, come on! Is this the best we can do? If any of the supposed
eyewitness had made a statement to the press, why not quote
them, instead of someone else who was below decks at the time?

Curiouser and curiouser.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Jul > Jul 26

                   Koreans Investigate Cloning By Raelians

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 03:27:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:11:46 -0400
Subject: Koreans Investigate Cloning By Raelians


Source: Reuters via ABC News

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/SciTech/reuters20020725_46.html

Stig

***

South Korea Investigating Firm's Baby Cloning Claims

July 25

=97 By Paul Eckert

**

SEOUL (Reuters) - South Korea said on Thursday it was
investigating a U.S.-based firm run by a UFO-inspired spiritual
sect which claims it has implanted a cloned embryo in a Korean
woman.

As Seoul's media urged the country to swiftly pass laws against
human cloning in the wake of Clonaid's claim, the South Korean
Ministry of Health and Welfare was quick to underline its
opposition to the practice.

"We began investigating the company yesterday," a ministry
spokesman said.

"Before finding out whether or not there's a woman pregnant with
a cloned baby, we must state that the practice of human cloning
itself is unethical," the spokesman said.

Clonaid Korea spokesman Kwak Gi-hwa told a news conference in
South Korea on Wednesday that the firm had implanted a Korean
surrogate mother with a cloned embryo. The woman would give
birth in South Korea, which has no laws against the procedure,
he said.

In an interview with Reuters television on Thursday, Kwak
repeated his assertion.

"The surrogate mother, who arrived in South Korea a month ago,
came with an embryo which had been implanted on her uterine wall
by foreign technicians," he said.


Jesus Was Clone, Group Says

The Health Ministry spokesman told Reuters the ministry had
drawn up guidelines on human cloning which permit the cloning of
embryos only for medical treatment.

"Embryo cloning is totally different from human cloning which
isn't permissible anywhere in the world," he said by telephone.

Kwak, who declined to disclose where in South Korea the
surrogate mother was or to give the address of Clonaid's office,
said the firm sought "to inform as many people as possible that
eternal life is possible with science."

Clonaid's web site, www.clonaid.com, says the firm was set up in
1997 by the Raelian Movement, which preaches that life on earth
was created through genetic engineering by extraterrestrials and
that Jesus was the product of advanced cloning techniques.

Other cloning experts have criticized Clonaid for failing to back
up its claims of being able to clone a human.

South Korean newspapers appeared to take Kwok's announcement at
face value. But a cautious JoongAng Ilbo said in an editorial that
South Korea should in any case act quickly to bring its anti-
cloning policies in line with international standards.

"Even if one is skeptical of this particular announcement, it is
still a wake-up call to put into law a set of cell-cloning
guidelines" drafted by government ministries, the daily said.


Company Claims Success

South Korean lawmakers have drafted a bioethics bill which bans
human cloning, but the legislation is in the early stages of
review by the National Assembly.

Clonaid project head Brigitte Boisellier, described by the firm
as a Raelian bishop, refused to confirm Kwak's claims.

Contacted in the United States, she told Reuters: "Maybe one of
our collaborators was too eager to disclose things."

But Boisellier said Clonaid had invented and was patenting a new
method for cloning embryos. She said they first grew human
embryos to the blastocyst stage -- the size at which they would
be implanted into a woman's womb -- last October.

"Our goal is to do a cloned baby and a very healthy one," she
said. "We should disclose in December the results of the
implantations to the scientific community."

She said she was "not eager to disclose" how many women had been
implanted with cloned embryos, or where they were.

So far only one lab, Advanced Cell Technologies of Worcester,
Massachusetts, says it has cloned a human embryo. Its embryos
stopped growing after only a few days in the lab.

ACT says its goal is not to create a human baby but to use any
successful embryos as a source for stem cells, which scientists
hope can be used to treat diseases ranging from diabetes to
Parkinson's.


photo credit and caption:

Clonaid Korea spokesman Kwak Gi-hwa holds a book titled 'Yes to
Human Cloning' during an interview in Seoul July 25, 2002. South
Korea said on Thursday it was investigating a U.S.-based firm
run by a UFO-inspired spiritual sect which claimed it has
implanted a cloned embryo in a Korean woman. Kwak declined to
disclose where in South Korea the surrogate mother was or to
give the address of Clonaid's office. Clonaid's web site says it
was set up in 1997 by the Raelian Movement, which preaches that
life on earth was created through genetic engineering by
extraterrestrials. Photo by Lee Jae Won/Reuters

**

Copyright 2002 Reuters News Service. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
redistributed.








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   Jul > Jul 26

                         NIDS On US Mutilation Wave

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 03:56:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:15:34 -0400
Subject: NIDS On US Mutilation Wave


Source: Las Vegas Weekly

http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/2002/07_25/news_upfront_speaking.html

Stig

***

Date: July 25, 2002

Speaking Briefly

Cattle mutilations: Who you gonna call?

**

Mysterious cattle-slaughter cases are sweeping the country in
what local experts are labeling a "mutilation wave."

"There's been a dramatic increase for unknown reasons," says Dr.
Colm Kelleher, deputy administrator for the National Institute
for Discovery Science. "We have no idea why."

Searching for the answer will keep the NIDS office busy. The
Ghostbuster of the cattle mutilation world, NIDS is the Las
Vegas institution known for using scientific methods to explore
such anomalies as UFOs, cattle mutilations and other
controversial topics the scientific world shies away from.

A mutilated steer from Cache County, Utah, is the most recent
bovine befuddlement.

"It's an interesting one, because we had a 2-year-old steer
whose genitals had been cut out and a two-to three-inch-wide
hole had been cut, removing the urethra and all of the animal's
sexual organs very skillfully," Kelleher explains. "The surgical
procedure had been done without blood and without leakage. (The
vet) said he would have expected a lot more blood, but there was
none, in fact."

In the world of cattle mutilation, this is not uncommon.
Exsanguination (their blood has been drained) and surgically
precise organ removal are two characteristics that add to the
mystery. The dead animals also tend to repel scavengers and
members of the herd, and there are rarely footprints, tire
treads or other evidence found nearby. Some people associate
aliens with the mutilations, others implicate satanic cults.
NIDS is using science to find commonalties among the animals,
such as traces of narcotics in their systems.

The Cache County steer is one of about a dozen that the
institute has studied. Kelleher points out that their main
difficulty is getting the animals within 48 hours, before
they're too decomposed.

The institute has received 40 to 50 reports since last summer.
This is a dramatic increase from the year before, when they
received only five.

=97Kate Silver

**

All contents =A9 1998 - 2002 Radiant City Publications, LLC








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   Jul > Jul 26

               Re: 'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:15:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:18:03 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts -


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:44:11 +0200
 >Subject: 'Signs' Panned By Crop Circle Enthusiasts

 >Source: This is Wiltshire, July 18, 2002,

 >http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/leisure/weird/latest.html

 >Stig

 >***

 >Weird Wiltshire

 >**

 ><snip>

 >A NEW Hollywood block-buster about crop circles is already being
 >rubbished, several weeks before it has even been released.

 >The film Signs is clearly trying to cash in on the phenomena of
 >Wiltshire's crop formations by telling the story of how the
 >beliefs of a small-time farmer are tested when large patterns
 >mysteriously appear in one of his corn fields.

 >But already serious crop circle watchers are saying that the
 >film, which stars Mel Gibson, cannot be taken seriously.
 >Francine Blake of the Wiltshire Crop Circle Study Group said:
 >"It is the sort of typical hysterical Hollywood film we are used
 >to ? all sensational and scary.

 From some earlier communications elsewhere, apparently what all
the folks were upset about was the depiction of a hostile ET.
Apparently some people believe that ET is benovelant, and just
trying to save mankind from all of its problems. As I have
mentioned elsewhere if only 10 percent of all abduction accounts
are true, I sure wouldn't want to run into those ETs in a
darkened space ship.....


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jul > Jul 26

                      NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:22:55 -0400
Subject: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?


NIDS has just issued a white paper outlining their theory that
the flying boomerangs may be military in origin.

Over the years I've uncovered some tantalizing hints in this
direction myself, so I'd be very interested if anyone here has
any comments on the NIDS paper.

I'm no aerospace engineer, but the technical stuff in this
report seems to be just a bit on the rough side.

Can anyone here with the requisite expertise review this article
with an eye toward confirming or denying some of the science
therein?

http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html


Thanks,

==JJS==








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   Jul > Jul 26

                    Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:37:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:24:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Hatch


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:02:32 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:19:42 +0200
 >>Subject: Crop Circle In Basel Area

 >>New place of pilgrimage: a grain circle in the Baselbiet

 >What countries have never reported crop circles within their
 >boundaries?

 >Sometimes the truth is where you don't look. ;>


Hello Amy:

A good thought! But, (alas) a rather hopeless one I would think.
Some countries report _no_ anomalies whatsoever, they simply
lack the infrastructure to get the word out. If something does
leak out, its usually from some visitor(s) from another country.

One entire continent, a huge one, is virtually blank on my UFO
maps. If a crop circle appeared there, it would probably be
dismissed as the work of spirits or the like.

There and elsewhere, entire countries are black holes for
anomalous-events information; what little press they have
devoted to the wisdom of their despotic rulers... the population
too illiterate to read it.

There are probably places where hoaxers are completely unaware
of CCs, let alone clever enough to create them. But again, I see
no way to prove even that!


Sorry

- Larry Hatch








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   Jul > Jul 26

                  Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002 - Stonehill

From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:59:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:31:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002 - Stonehill


 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:29:04 EDT
 >Subject: Filer's Files #30 - 2002

<snip>

 >COSMONAUT VICTOR AFANASYEV'S DRAWING of an elongated flying
 >triangle UFO seen flying formation in April 1979, with his space
 >vehicle website is on my website.  Victor states, "I think we
 >are not alone, something of extraterrestrial origin has visited
 >Earth."  The alien craft turned toward ours, followed us and
 >flew formation 25 to 29 meters away.  We photographed the
 >metallic engineering structure that was and 40 meters long.  The
 >film was later confiscated.  See his drawing at
 >http://www.filersfiles.com/news/images.php?id=69


I just read Filer's Files #30 - 2002. Unfortunately, the story
about Afanasyev and UFOs is a hoax. I have no idea who would
generate such a hoax, and doubt that it would be Afanasyev
himself.

Here are some facts about him.....

Viktor Mikhaylovich Afanasyev, Hero of the Soviet Union,
Cosmonaut Number 70 of the USSR.

During 1976-77 (after his military service) he was a student at
the Center of Aviation Technology Testing and Training of Test
Pilots, in the town of Akhtyubinsk, Astrakhan region, USSR. On
January 29, 1977, after he graduated from the Center, V.
Afanasyev was qualified to be a Test Pilot of Third Class, and
he remained at the V.P. Chkalov State Scientific Testing
Institute of the Air Force in Akhtyubinsk. He was a top gun
there, a test pilot. There he mastered flying Su-7, Su-17, and
Yak-28U aircraft.

In 1985 he was sent to the medical commission, passed the tests
successfully, and was chosen to be a part of a group of the test
pilots to work in the Soviet space shuttle Buran program (at the
same Institute). The same year he began general cosmonaut
training at the Yu. A. Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center,
Afanasyev pursued his test pilot activities and his cosmonaut
training simultaneously. He graduated the cosmonaut training in
1987.

On January 1988, by order of the Supreme Commander of the Soviet
Air Force he was qualified to be a cosmonaut (his official
designation was a test cosmonaut).

His first space flight took place from December 2, 1990 to May
26, 1991. Afanasyev was commander of the Soyuz TM-11 spaceship,
and Mir orbital station (with M H. Manarov and Akiyama of
Japan).

He was awarded a number of decorations of the USSR, and his
experience is much larger than stated here. But he definitely
was not in space in 1979; he was back on Earth.

Why would Afanasyev change his own biography? Those who want to
read his complete biography in Russian, or see his photograph,
should contact me at:

rurc@earthlink.net

Paul Stonehill
Author 'The Soviet UFO Files' - 1998







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   Jul > Jul 26

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:38:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:33:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:55:41 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:34:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:55:09 +0100

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >After all these years, I can't understand why people such as you
 >describe, spend so much time in a subject they feel or know does
 >not actually exist?

 >Roy:

 >Personally, I'm just interesting in the astronomical and related
 >stimuli for many UFO reports.

 >You see, many of us are just fascinated with IFOs.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

 >"Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk
 >  Woop, Woop, Woop, Woop"
 >  --Curley Howard 'Men in Black' - 1934

Bob:

IFOs? Then why are you here?

Condon, et al, explained almost all the stimuli years ago...
Venus, meteors, and pelicans (plus a few balloons, satellites,
airplanes and helicopters) pretty much sum it up. Case closed.
There's no new phenomenon to analyze or report on. You could be
studying the average number of legs on ants instead of this
subject...

So why not do something truly noble and pioneering such as
discovering a way to radically improve human vision (and
interpretation) without glasses or contacts, so that the
observers of the future (including 5-year-old girls) won't
mistake a huge, grey hulk of humming metal gliding just above
the trees, for a temperature inversion or a magnetically charged
whale? You'd do the world a favor!

I've got it bad, myself. I can't tell you how many times I've
plugged the toaster into the pencil sharpener, and opened the
mailbox or the medicine cabinet looking for the bread or milk...
Please, Bob: I need help. The kind of help that only a brave and
creative pioneer can provide. Someone who can think "out of the
box" and try something new - even if the experts say it can't be
done. Thknsa!#

Desperately hoping for a cure from Bob the Brave and Noble,

Dave Morton







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   Jul > Jul 26

             Gazecki's Crop Circle Documentary On US TV Tonight

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:47:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:39:40 -0400
Subject: Gazecki's Crop Circle Documentary On US TV Tonight


A crop circle documentary, made by award winning film maker
William Gazecki, is on TV in the US tonight, Friday July 26.

It's called 'Crop Circles: Quest for Truth' and will be featured
on Entertainment Tonight (CBS).

William - famous for his documentary on Waco - has been shooting
this croppie epic for many months in the UK and interviews all
the main researchers.

Of all documentaries on the subject around at present it's
believed to be the one most accurate and sympathetic to the
paranormal aspects of the phenomena. If anybody does watch it
please post a critique of it for folk like me in the UK who
haven't yet seen it.


Cheers

Dave Haith








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                EW: Thermal Image Heats Mars Face Controversy

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:34:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:42:17 -0400
Subject: EW: Thermal Image Heats Mars Face Controversy


--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News July 26, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
THERMAL IMAGE HEATS MARS FACE CONTROVERSY
martian enigmas

*** A new infrared image of the notorious Mars Face reveals
nothing so much as our fascination with ET ***

photo: Cydonia 2002 - Infrared, Daytime
http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewCydoniaThemisDay.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - NASA's high-tech infrared camera
recently photographed the Mars Face, along with other
controversial landforms in the Cydonia region. As usual, the new
photo inspires speculation about the search for extraterrestrial
intelligence.

The Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) on board the
Odyssey spacecraft captured an excellent regional view of
Cydonia. NASA's point of view is that the Mars Face is just one
of many normal geologic features, all eroded into a remarkable
array of different shapes:

"The Cydonia region is seen to be covered with dozens of
interesting knobs and mesas that are similar in many ways to the
knob named the 'face'," says the THEMIS image caption.

NASA's new Cydonia photo is different because unlike an ordinary
camera, THEMIS shows temperature effects. Hot spots are "white",
cool spots are "black", and since it was taken during daylight,
the temperature effects are those caused by ordinary sunlight.
As a result, the image looks remarkably similar to the historic
Viking images that started the Mars Face controversy.

According to the Cydonian Imperative, an online blog dedicated
to the Martian enigmas, the infrared image tells us nothing new
or unexpected. "While the IR image is a welcome contribution to
the study of the Cydonia region, it provides no evidence
confirming or refuting the Artificiality Hypothesis," writes Mac
Tonnies

Tonnies thinks what we really need is an infrared image that
shows us heat signatures at night. "A night-time IR image is
needed to help test the notion that the Face and D&M Pyramid are
(at least partially) hollow, and thus almost certainly non-
natural. Landforms, natural and otherwise, radiate heat in
distinct ways. "

Richard Hoagland, the foremost expert on the Mars Face, thinks
there is a great deal more to the release of the latest THEMIS
image. Hoagland tells us his sources hint that a night-time
image has already been taken, and NASA is hard-pressed to
explain it.

As Hoagland has it, there is a conflict within our government
over the question of extraterrestrial artifacts on Mars. "Some
inside NASA still apparently have not gotten 'the word' that
there=92s a 'new day dawning' around this issue, and increasing
'disclosure' is supposed to be the policy from now on."

REASON TO BELIEVE

Cydonia researchers have argued that if the search for
extraterrestrial radio signals is legitimate science, then why
not the search for extraterrestrial artifacts?

In a surprising reversal of policy, the SETI Institute's Dr.
Jill Tarter recently told Space.com that evidence of
extraterrestrial activity might be present in our own solar
system.

"It's possible that there could be, in fact, within our solar
system, some evidence of ET technology," said Dr. Tarter, the
woman upon whom Jodie Foster's character in the movie "Contact"
was largely based. "They may be here."

Is the Face evidence of alien visitation, or the remnant of a
lost civilization on Mars? Either way, and in spite of the fact
that it looks less like a human face as our technology improves,
the notorious hill in Cydonia somehow prompts us to ask whether
mankind is truly alone.

But if additional information from NASA's Odyssey shows up,
don't expect it to be conclusive. Not unless you've already made
your mind up one way or the other. In that case, you don't need
any more information, beyond confirming your own beliefs.

Empirical science doesn't work that way. Our biggest challenge
as human beings will be to see what is really there, and accept
it for what it is, not what we suppose it to be.

If science is beginning to warm up to the notion of the Search
for Extraterrestrial Visitation (SETV), then perhaps its time
for Cydonia enthusiasts to cast aside elaborate conspiratorial
mythologies that demonize anyone who disagrees with them.

Apriori conclusions on either side of the argument hinder
legitimate inquiry. "Electric Warriors", at least, still need a
reason to believe.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

24-Jul-02
The So-Called 'Face on Mars' in Infrared
http://themis.la.asu.edu/zoom-20020724A.html

(THEMIS Science Team) - In this "big picture" view the Cydonia
region is seen to be covered with dozens of interesting knobs
and mesas that are similar in many ways to the knob named the
"face" - so many in fact that it requires care to discover the
"face" among this jumble of knobs and hills. The 3-km long
"face" knob was first imaged by the Viking spacecraft in the
1970's and was seen by some to resemble a face carved into the
rocks of Mars.

24-Jul-02
Tonnies: Mars Odyssey THEMIS Takes Infrared Photo of
Face and D&M
http://mactonnies.com/imperative32.html

(The Cydonian Imperative) - If the Face is hollow and/or
composed of materials other than native rock, we should expect
to find a thermal emission "signature" telling us as much.

23-Jul-02
This is the Captain Speaking
http://www.enterprisemission.com/announcements/72202.html

(Enterprise Mission) - According to our separate "Bush
Administration" source, the image we are supposed to be getting
is a "nighttime Cydonia IR image" -- where the accumulated heat
of the day is slowly radiating back into space throughout the
night. On this image, we've been told, certain features will
"stand out as almost unmistakably different."

24-Jul-02
Strieber: SETI Says ET May Be Here
http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=3D1772

(Unknown Country) - Tarter's comments reflect an increasing
openness among astronomers to the idea that an extraterrestrial
presence in our solar system isn't impossible. This is because
the assumptions in Drake's Equation, which basically says that
extraterrestrial life would be extremely rare, are being called
into question by the large number of planets that are being
discovered orbiting other stars.

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
July 26, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
Do you like this article? The URL address for this
content is:

http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0046.htm

The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the content of Web
links. Content reproduced here is for informational purposes
only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com







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   Jul > Jul 26

                         Rendlesham Documents Arrive

From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:33:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:44:35 -0400
Subject: Rendlesham Documents Arrive


This is to inform you that the remaining Rendlesham documents
arrived by post from the MOD this morning - rather quicker than
expected!

Actually, more than three documents appear to have arrived but
an early perusal (we've had them an hour thus far) seems to
indicate that there is, as we predicted, no great revelation
here. Nevertheless, there are some interesting features.....

Within the next few days we shall be posting relevant sections
from these page to UFO UpDates.


Many thanks,

Tim Matthews
Eric Morris, for BUFOSC.








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                          Is E.T.'s World a Planet?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:43:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:45:54 -0400
Subject: Is E.T.'s World a Planet?


Source: SPACE.com,

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/dyson_seti_020725.html

Stig

***

Is E.T.'s World a Planet?

By Seth Shostak
Senior Astronomer, Project Phoenix
posted: 07:00 am ET
25 July 2002

**

Freeman Dyson is betting that alien life doesn't live on a world
like yours. More specifically, if you check out the tentative
wager this celebrated physicist has logged at the Web site
www.longbets.org, you'll see that Dyson's hunch is that the
first discovery of extraterrestrial life will be made someplace
other than on a planet or on a satellite of a planet.

In other words, if we succeed in finding some biology beyond
Earth, it won't be camped out on a large ball of rock.

I have great admiration for Freeman Dyson's breathtaking ideas.
But I suspect he's taking a long shot here. He hasn't qualified
the bet to say "intelligent extraterrestrial life." So if an
upcoming mission to Mars, Titan, or Europa discovers microbes
busy eking out a living deep underground or afloat in hidden
oceans of water or natural gas, then Dyson will have to pay up,
assuming we haven't found some other biology first.

Is there something else we could find first? There's always the
possibility of breaking open a fallen meteorite to reveal some
sort of metabolizing slime within. Or maybe intelligent aliens
will make an unequivocal landing behind the White House rose
garden. But if you're talking near-term success in uncovering
life elsewhere, then SETI's a big part of the mix. SETI, of
course, could find a signal at any time.

So how reasonable is Dyson's hypothesis of a non-planetary home
for intelligent life? After all, the usual convention in SETI --
as expressed in everything from the Drake Equation to the
strategy of targeted searches -- is that complex, thinking beings
will evolve on Earth-like worlds, and stay there.

The first conjecture isn't enormously controversial. But the
second may be too conservative. Intelligent beings might travel,
and at the very least could spread through their own solar
systems. Dyson has pointed out that the fundamental problem with
planets is that there's not much real estate for the mass
involved. Spheres have the minimum surface area for a given
volume of stuff. You can improve things by chopping the Earth in
two and rolling up each of the halves like clay balls. This will
increase the acreage by 26%. Do it again (now four balls), and
you'll win another 26%.

Reconfiguring Earth is a big job, and would probably run afoul
of environmental protection agencies. But there's no need: as
Dyson has noted, if more space is your thing, then the asteroids
are already available as bite-size hunks of matter, close enough
to the Sun to intercept interesting amounts of energy, and
composed of materials suitable for supporting life. There's at
least ten thousand times as much surface area on the asteroids
as on our home planet. So our future, Dyson suggests, lies in
exploiting this abundant acreage, for otherwise we may crowd
ourselves into a nasty situation here on Earth.

Assuming that intelligent species elsewhere have done the same,
shouldn't we be broadening (in a literal sense) our SETI
searches?

In fact, our searches already are broad! The Arecibo telescope's
beam, as used for Project Phoenix, covers all of a 100 light-
year-distant solar system out to two thousand times the Earth-
Sun distance. It will encompass anyone's asteroid belt. Our
optical searches are similarly sensitive to wide swaths of other
star systems.

But what if life has adapted to existence in a vacuum (another
Dyson suggestion)? You might think that life in a vacuum sucks,
but if such atmosphere-independent biology exists, it might
migrate to giant molecular clouds and other interstellar feeding
grounds where resources are far more plentiful than in a
planetary system. If this has happened, SETI sky surveys (such
as SERENDIP IV, the data- collecting component of the SETI@home
effort) might turn up intelligence situated between the stars.

Is Freeman Dyson right? Obviously, no one yet knows, and it's
certainly possible that life -- even of the savvy variety -- might
be situated elsewhere than on planetary surfaces. Fortunately,
today's SETI searches have those extraplanetary bases reasonably
covered.

Meanwhile, those who are optimistic about the chances for
finding life beneath Mars' dusty dirt or under Europa's icy
crust may wish to step forward and take up Freeman Dyson's bet.

**

  =A9 2002 SPACE.com, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.










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   Jul > Jul 26

                Shostak & Paleontologist Ward Discuss Aliens

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:10:01 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:47:52 -0400
Subject: Shostak & Paleontologist Ward Discuss Aliens


Source: MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.com/news/785837.asp

July 26, 2002

Commenting on Shostak's contribution on SPACE.com, forwarded in
my previous e-mail, MSNBC presents a video-clip where "SETI
Institute astronomer Seth Shostak and University of Washington
paleontologist Peter Ward debate the chances of finding
intelligent life beyond Earth."


Stig








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               Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:21:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:52:23 -0400
Subject: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Ledger


 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:05:56 -0400
 >Subject: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa

 >Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry:

 >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992589


Hi Wendy,

The article points out just how much rubbish can make its way
into he scientific community as useful research, without first
identifying which state of mind is that of reality.

Certainly administering large doses of drugs will tend to color
certain stages of reality.

This reminds me of comedian George Carlin's quip about hooking
lab rats up to face masks and forcing them to breath cannabis
fumes for 24 hours a day. "Scientists", he stated, "have
determined that this will cause brain damage." Duh.....

In this article it is assumed that the skeptic is grounded in
reality or a closed-state-of-mind.


Don Ledger







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             Re: yewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - van

From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:48:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:14:04 -0400
Subject: Re: yewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - van


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >I repeat, can you point to a citation from the archives of this
 >fine List where anybody ever claimed this? Ever?

We all know you never put it into words, but it is certainly
implied by the way you handle UFO reports. Your hand-waving
dismissal of the Ohio Ravenna case as an example of people
seeing nothing but Venus still lingers in my mind as an example
of such.

For anyone to attribute the characteristics in that specific
case to Venus one seriously _has_ to believe that eyewitnesses
are as blind as your average mole.

Yes folks, Bob believes Venus can light up an entire road and
hover above people's heads. And you wonder why you're being
compared to Menzel at times. Don't take that as a compliment, it
isn't.








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:13:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:17:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >I dare say I could trawl the newspapers of our two great nations
 >and find numerous examples of people who have been wrongly
 >identified by witnesses who were quite sure of their
 >descriptions. There have been any number of people who have been
 >wrongly convicted on the basis of such eyewitness evidence. If
 >you like, whenever I find such a miscarriage of justice I shall
 >post it on this forum, although I suspect our genial host might
 >soon put a stop to me.

I know I'm jumping in on someone else's thread again, but there
are some serious issues here I really would like to explore some
more.

John, I have been following this thread pretty closely and as
far as I can see, no-one has actually claimed that eye-witness
testimony is immune to error. But there are some serious
questions here about what sort of errors occur, what sort of
processes cause them to come about and to what extent one can
generalize from their occurrence to postulate other sorts of
errors in other sorts of situations.

For example, I'd like to take your point about ball-lightning.
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying about that. Are you
saying that eye-witness testimony alone can never be sufficient
to establish that any particular theoretical model of
ball-lightning is correct? I think that would be an entirely fair
point and I can't believe anyone would seriously disagree with
it. Or are you instead saying that eye witness testimony alone
can never be sufficient to establish the existence of an
anomalous phenomenon to which the name "ball-lightning" is
conventionally given? Because if that is what you are saying,
then I think you are on very dodgy ground scientifically.

The problem is, if you're trying to assert the second
proposition, then you have the burden of proof of explaining
what sort of perceptual or memory error, operating under what
sort of conditions and caused by what sort of functional
process, is implicated in the generation of eye witness reports
of ball lightning. Simply saying "Well, sometimes witnesses
identify the wrong defendant in a police line-up" isn't good
enough - that's an example of an unsupported generalization. By
this sort of reasoning, you could generalize to absolutely any
conclusion whatever from a single data point, without being
constrained by any kind of theoretical structure - which indeed,
is precisely what Loftus, Kihlstrom and their acolytes in the
FMSF regularly do.

I may have mis-read you here, and if so I apologize, but it does
seem to me that you come perilously close in this discussion to
discounting eye-witness testimony on the grounds that it is
subject to random errors of unlimited magnitude. I would never
try to tell you what threshold of evidence you should accept
personally, but there is no way such a conclusion could be
scientifically supportable.


Cathy








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                      The Jim Mortellaro Abduction Case

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:40:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:40:42 -0400
Subject: The Jim Mortellaro Abduction Case

Budd Hopkins called me last night, concerned that Jim
Mortellaro's abduction case might loose credibility due to the
very public acrimony between Mortellaro and John Velez, here
on UFO UpDates.

Budd pointed out that post-traumatic stress in abductees
manifests in many different ways and some of what we have seen
on our screens over the past few years could well be the result
of abduction.

Jim Mortellaro's case, Budd feels, could well be one of the most
important ever and is being investigated by not only himself and
other abduction researchers but also by a team of medical
specialists.

In the light of the most recent events in the on-going
Mortellaro/Velez discussions here, I removed both Alfred
Lehmberg's and Mortellaro's addresses from the UFO UpDates
List.

Their removal came because they privately distributed a
post-submission by Alfred Lehmberg, which I refused to forward
to the List. It contained un-substantiated accusations and a
re-writing of some of the history between Mortellaro & Velez.
An end-run of the offending mail to other UFO UpDates
subscribers, without the opportunity for John Velez to publicly
defend himself.

Jim Mortellaro's removal does not mean that my mind is made up,
one way or the other, about his case. It isn't. And neither
should the reader's be. Until the results of the investigation
are known, we should all remain in neutral about the case
itself.

Until those results come in, please try and refrain from
submitting any further posts dealing with either the case or
the Mortellaro/Velez situation.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator
UFO UpDates - Toronto







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                   Re: NIDS On US Mutilation Wave - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:06:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:48:40 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS On US Mutilation Wave - Young


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 03:56:18 +0200
 >Subject: NIDS On US Mutilation Wave

 >Source: Las Vegas Weekly

<snip>

 >Mysterious cattle-slaughter cases are sweeping the country in
 >what local experts are labeling a "mutilation wave."

 >"There's been a dramatic increase for unknown reasons," says Dr.
 >Colm Kelleher, deputy administrator for the National Institute
 >for Discovery Science. "We have no idea why."

<snip>

 >The institute has received 40 to 50 reports since last summer.
 >This is a dramatic increase from the year before, when they
 >received only five.

List:

How about just that word is getting out that the is somebody -
NIDS - to call?


Clear skies,

Bob Young

Data does not speak for itself. I have been in rooms with data
and listened very carefully. The data never said a word.'

                                       Milford Wollpof (1975)







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:17:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:50:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Jim,

 >>Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
 >>any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
 >>the testimony of people who say saw a meteor? I mean after all
 >>unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
 >>evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
 >>DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
 >>other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
 >>with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
 >>people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?

 >Come on, people, let's get real. We know what we're up against.
 >Meteors are proven to exist, UFOs (as nuts-and bolts craft) are
 >not.

The existence of meteors was once fought as fiercely as the
existence of UFOs, employing some of the same tortured
explanations and rationalizations.  If anything, the meteor
analogy works on the side of UFO proponents.

Moreover, the argument at its core, and at this stage of its
evolution, is _not_ whether UFOs exist as "nuts-and-bolts
craft," but simply whether there are highly anomalous aerial
phenomena credibly reported.  You're confusing UFO study with
UFO theory.

 >Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >into the hallowed halls of science.

This is a cliche, and it is ripe for debunking.  In fact, it is
going to be debunked by the very man who coined the phrase (not,
by the way, Carl Sagan, usually credited with it): sociologist
of science Marcello Truzzi.  Look for his paper on the subject.
Suffice it to say, he regrets ever conjuring up this simplistic
formulation.

You can see the problem when you start with two loaded phrases,
blithely undefined: "extraordinary claims" and "extraordinary
proof."  Another problem is that the issues science faces in
confronting the anomalous cannot be rendered into one simple,
bumper-sticker slogan.


Jerry Clark







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:20:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:51:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:15 -0700

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:44:21 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:18:28 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Hi, Jim,

 >On this point we agree wholeheartedly. _However_, I don't think
 >that this is reason enough to let all, or even the best,
 >eyewitness accounts go completely unchallenged. We do know that
 >some descriptions have proven unreliable in the past.

Well, yeah, except that's not what I have been discussing. My
point has been that eyewitness testimony can be both mistaken
_and_ accurate. Except when eyewitness testimony can be used to
identify IFOs, debunkers act as if the latter never happens,
thus the fierce effort we've all witnessed to rationalize away
the implications of eyewitness testimony in the Samantha Runnion
case.

Jerry Clark








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               Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:11:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:53:47 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700
 >Subject: Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >NIDS has just issued a white paper outlining their theory that
 >the flying boomerangs may be military in origin.

 >Over the years I've uncovered some tantalizing hints in this
 >direction myself, so I'd be very interested if anyone here has
 >any comments on the NIDS paper.

 >I'm no aerospace engineer, but the technical stuff in this
 >report seems to be just a bit on the rough side.

 >Can anyone here with the requisite expertise review this article
 >with an eye toward confirming or denying some of the science
 >therein?

 >http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html

 >Thanks,

 >==JJS==


Hi Jim,

Having just read the summary of the FT/LTA as according to NIDS
I immediately come up with several questions. 1] Why the
secrecy? 2] Why risk this secrecy by flying them in domestic
airspace? 3] Who was/is building them? 4] What were/are these
special craft being saved for? Germany has been experimenting
with LTA craft for 100 years and is quite open about it and even
now are preparing these prototypes for transporting large cargo
containers. If we are to believe that the LTAs are the answer to
the UFO phenomena why has the US government [for example] spent
so many billions of dollars on rocketry for space and other
methods of propulsion for its military purposes?

I'm reminded of Paul R. Hill's reaction to his sighting back in
the early 50s when he saw a huge UFO near Langley, Virginia and
spent the next 30 years trying to figure out what the heck he'd
witnessed. Hill as most will remember was an aeronautical
engineer working at Langley on thrust vectoring and thereby made
it possible to eliminate "fins" [control surfaces] on American
rockets which were ineffective at slow speeds. I'm impressed
with the summary and excited about the possibility of some
newer, less fuel piggish ways of moving commodities and even
people around but without answers to the first 4 questions-this
is not the answer to the UFO question.

If these craft are being built in the United States, who is
behind them and how inneffectual is the USAF in not being able
to maintain their authority over/in their own airspace.

This piece raises many more questions than it answers.

Best,

Don Ledger








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:36:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:55:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:50 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


Bob,

 >>>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >>I am shocked. I have never seen _anything_ by you that made the
 >>point that eyewitness testimony can be reliable, except recently
 >>in the matter of IFOs, where Condon's findings underscore its
 >>startling accuracy.

 >Obviously eyewitness testimony can be reliable, and is reliable
 >about many things. It can also be unreliable. Does anybody doubt
 >this? Only you, who absurdly claimed that others have claimed
 >that it is to be considered totally unreliable.

Now we learn, belatedly, that to you eyewitness testimony can
be reliable, and not only that, "obviously" so. The tune has
changed, so maybe we're making progress.

You have ignored my question, so let me phrase it again:
Can you cite an unexplained, high-strangeness UFO case in
which you judge the witnesses to be credible and their
testimony worth heeding as a reliable indication of what they
actually saw?

 >I repeat, can you point to a citation from the archives of this
 >fine List where anybody ever claimed this? Ever?

I repeat: Have you ever admitted to an unexplained, high-
  strangeness UFO case in which you judge the witnesses to be
credible and their testimony worth heeding?

The answer, I believe, is no. Please correct me with a specific
citation if I am wrong. More typically, we get the sort of
pelican logic that concedes, however grudgingly, that a single
five-year-old girl can use eyewitness testimony to describe,
with great accuracy, a kidnapper.

Meanwhile, you want us to believe that five adult witnesses, the
seasoned crew of an Ohio National Guard helicopter, observe a
mere fireball and think they are seeing something that covers
the entire front windshield, with a red light on its nose, a
white light shining at the tail of a cigar-shaped metallic
structure. Underneath the tail, on its lower side - in the
testimony of these pathetically deluded observers - was a
pyramid-shaped green beam sweeping a 90-degree arcs shining
through the helicopter windshield, then covering the entire
aircraft.

Moreover, so assert these dimwits, the object - unlike, say, a
fireball - was not glowing. Its outlines were clearly visible,
however, in the reflection cast by the lights it carried and
also against the starry background. It had no wings, tails, or
identifying marks.

Now, let's toll this up. (1) One five-year-old girl: amazingly
accurate eyewitness testmony. (2) Five adult members of a
military helicopter crew: so amazingly inept in their ability to
observe and describe that they would probably couldn't tell the
difference between a ham sandwich and a flapping pelican.


Jerry Clark








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                Argentina: Updated List of Cattle Mutilations

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:22:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:58:30 -0400
Subject: Argentina: Updated List of Cattle Mutilations


Dear Readers,

The following list was kindly provided by Christian Quintero of
Argentina's Proyecto Condor, and was based on information
supplied by C.O.R, Andrea and Silvia Perez Simondini and Daniel
Valverdi. The total carcass count to date now stands at 394. Mr.
Quintero cautions that many ranchers have stopped reporting new
cases, and the tally may in fact exceed four hundred.

PROVINCE CASES
Buenos Aires 149
Catamarca 02
Chaco 14
Chubut 02
C=F3rdoba 27
Corrientes 04
Entre R=EDos 23
Formosa 08
La Pampa 77
La Rioja 11
Mendoza 01
Neuqu=E9n 01
R=EDo Negro 15
Salta 07
San Luis 04
Santa Fe 20
Santiago del Estero 14
Tucum=E1n 15
TOTAL 394

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2002
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Christian Quintero.







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                   Baltimore Sun On Argentine Mutilations

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:41:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:25:35 -0400
Subject: Baltimore Sun On Argentine Mutilations


Source: The Baltimore Sun

You'll have to register at:

http://www.sunspot.net/

and do a search to see the page.

Stig

***

Eerie X-File of the pampas

By Reed Lindsay

Originally published Jul 23, 2002

**

SALIQUELLO, Argentina - Daniel Belot has seen his share of dead
cows.

As a veterinarian in the heart of the cow-full pampas, Belot has
written off bovine deaths to causes as diverse as foot-and-mouth
disease, bloat, lightning, killer bees and cattle thieves who
butcher their loot in place, a crime that has become
increasingly common as Argentina's economic crisis has extended
to the countryside.

Then, in April, he discovered a case that stumped him. A rancher
had found a nearly 1,000-pound Aberdeen Angus lying on its belly
"like a rabbit," in Belot's words. The left side of its face
around the jaw was gone, the hide cut away in two straight lines
meeting at a 90-degree angle.

Its tongue, pharynx and larynx were missing. Muscles and
ligaments had been removed from the jawbones, leaving them
spotless. There was no blood on the animal or nearby; nor were
there signs of scavengers or predators.

"I had never seen anything like it before," says Belot, who
works for Argentina's animal health agency, Senasa, in the
sleepy town of Saliquello. "How were those cuts made? When?
Why?"

Three months later, Belot has no answers. Across this country's
immense, grassy plains, Argentina's renowned beef cattle are
turning up dead, mutilated in ways that have baffled experts and
spooked ranchers.

Since Belot detected the first mutilation in April, nearly 200
more have been reported in the area, in addition to a scattering
of cases from as far away as Patagonia and Uruguay.

Most cows have the same missing parts as the first one examined
by Belot. But all the mutilations share an uncanny similarity:
Organs, flesh and skin have been removed in angular or neatly
curved cuts that leave no blood and clean, dry bones.

"The type of incisions do not coincide with any infectious or
contagious disease that we know," says Alberto Pariani, a
veterinarian at the University of La Pampa who has examined 40
mutilated cows. "When animals eat, they rip, they tear. They
don't cut.

"Everyone who has experience working on the ranch says the same
thing: No animal can do this."

Blame has been pinned on everything from ravenous rodents to
satanic cults, but in the farmhouses and small towns that dot
the pampas, the paranormal is the No. 1 suspect. Sure enough,
the mutilations have been accompanied by a spate of UFO
sightings.

The mutilations are not without precedent. Since the 1960s,
hundreds of mutilated animals have been found in the United
States with nearly identical characteristics - removal of organs
in what appear to be surgically precise cuts, no trace of blood,
no tracks of humans or animals, often with coinciding
testimonies of strange lights.

Mutilation cases have been reported during the past year in
Montana and Oregon. The news media have evoked comparisons with
the legend of the chupacabras, literally "goat sucker," revived
in Puerto Rico several years ago when farm animals there were
reportedly found dead and bloodless with abnormal puncture
wounds.

But according to an Argentine government-backed investigation,
the mutilations have an earthly explanation. A team of
university veterinarians working with specialists from Senasa
and the National Institute of Agricultural Technology recently
announced that they had caught the mysterious cow mutilator.

The culprit's name: Oxymycterus, commonly known as the long-
nosed mouse. The theory holds that the cows die from disease or
other natural causes, not unusual in winter, and are then set
upon by scavengers, including foxes and birds. But it is the
hungry long- nosed mouse, with its four potent incisors, that is
allegedly responsible for nibbling off flesh and hide in
circular and linear cuts.

To prove their hypothesis, veterinarians at the national
university in the city of Tandil placed dead cows in areas where
some of the mutilations had been discovered. Four or five days
later, the cows were left with "lesions exactly the same" as
those discovered in the mutilated cows.

The announcement was made at a Buenos Aires news conference,
where reporters were shown a video of mice crawling through a
carcass and chomping a cow tongue on a laboratory table.
National media coverage of the mutilations has effectively ended
since the news conference.

But many experts and local veterinarians remain unconvinced by
the government-endorsed conclusion. One question the university
team has not answered is why the mice, or any scavenger for that
matter, would consume the hide around the jaw instead of first
devouring the rest of the cow's softer flesh and innards.

Another chink in the theory: Some cows have been found mutilated
hours after being seen intact, leaving scant time for the mice
to remove the organs.

Nobody, from ranchers to biologists specializing in rodents, has
ever seen mice feed on a cow carcass.

The Tandil veterinarians suggest that a demographic explosion
combined with an unusually cold winter have driven the mice to
change their diet from worms and slugs to cow flesh. But in many
cases, witnesses have seen no signs of mice or any other
scavengers. Raising even greater doubts, the long-nosed mouse
does not inhabit the province of La Pampa, where dozens of
mutilations have been found.

The team of university and government specialists limited their
study to five counties in the province of Buenos Aires. They did
not make available the details of their investigation.

But if the mouse theory has its holes, the possibility of human
involvement seems even more unlikely. Police have found no
footprints or tire tracks near the animals. Nor are there signs
of struggle; cows killed by predators or humans usually leave
kick marks as they take their final gasps. In some cases, the
cows were discovered behind fences and locked gates or miles
from the nearest road.

Nobody has seen anyone or anything out of the ordinary, except
weird lights in the sky.

"We are totally disoriented," says Oscar Raul Arce, the chief of
the provincial police in northern La Pampa. "What is really
striking is that no clues, or prints or blood have been left.

"What's going on here is perhaps beyond our ability to
understand."

For most people out on the pampas, where cows outnumber humans
in the range of 10-to-1, something strange is responsible for
the mutilations, and it's not the long-nosed mouse.

"I'd always heard stories of people who had seen lights and
strange things," says rancher Raul Vargas, 39, standing over a
mutilated calf found the day before a half-mile from his
farmhouse.

"But if I hadn't seen this with my own eyes, I wouldn't have
believed it."

**

Copyright =A9 2002, The Baltimore Sun








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:27:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:29:26 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:13:19 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


John,

 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >But I don't reject the eyewitness testimony out of hand, do I?
 >Despite my request for you to give examples you have failed to
 >do so,

Okay, simple question:

In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

 >>The case is closed almost before it can be opened. In the above,
 >>you also manage to confuse two issues: perception and
 >>interpretation. They are not the same, and your lazy conflation
 >>of the two does serious inquiry no help at all.

 >The only way in which eyewitness testimony can be validated is
 >by checking the report with other available evidence and seeing
 >how it stacks up.

Which, of course, is exactly what ufologists do. To no avail,
according to pelicanist doctrine.

 >>No wonder you fail to understand why many of us go to such
 >>length to separate UFO study from UFO theory, and why, in
 >>practically every discussion about a UFO report, you can be
 >>counted on - even when, as is nearly always the case, no one
 >>else has - to start carrying on about the ETH, aliens, and the
 >>like.

 >I do apologise for occasionaly raising the subject of ETH,

"Occasionally?" Nah. Try "just about every possible
opportunity."

 >aliens and the like on a discussion list devoted to UFOs. I have
 >previously commented that I find the hard-line ETH approach more
 >intellectually honest than Jerry's attitude, which seems to be
 >that UFOs may be solid, constructed craft under intelligent
 >control, which display a technology that can not be replicated
 >on Earth, but apparently are not extraterrestrial spaceships.

Huh? The intellectual sophistication of this absurd paraphrase
would do credit to a clever nine-year-old. It does underscore my
point, however, that you can't tell the difference between UFO
study and UFO theory. From the incoherence of the above, I infer
that you think I said UFO study is good and UFO theory is bad.
Of course I said no such thing. I do feel, as I have stated
repeatedly in print and on this list (do you actually _read_
what I write?), that it is more urgent at this stage to research
and document the phenomenon than to speculate about its meaning,
since at this stage its meaning is, for all practical purposes,
entirely speculative. This is also why, John, I have
concentrated on history and analysis and published virtually no
UFO theory in a long, long time. Of course Magonia is just about
_all_ theory, so perhaps I can understand your sensitivity on
this point.

 >>For the rest of you out there, let me restate the simple fact
 >>that little Sarah Ahn's eyewitness testimony was strikingly
 >>accurate. I cited the case to show that, contrary to what
 >>pelicanists want you to believe, eyewitness testimony, while
 >>imperfect, is far from routinely wrong or victim to radical
 >>misperception. Moreover, as Catherine Reason shows in a separate
 >>posting, the research that purports to show otherwise is open to
 >>very serious dispute.

 >>Let's repeat what the New York Times piece said in its opening
 >>sentence, so that nobody is fooled by the fiction that the
 >>eyewitness testimony was not central to the solving of the case:
 >>"The observations of a 5-year- old girl, the only witness in the
 >>abduction of Samantha Runnion, have emerged as critical in the
 >>investigation that led to the arrest of Alejandro Avila in the
 >>kidnapping and murder case." Because her description was so
 >>accurate, acquaintances of the killer were able to recognize him
 >>from the sketch in circulation and lead police to him.

 >Yes, I don't doubt all this for a minute, and Sarah deserves all
 >the credit due to her. But you procede to go from this accepted
 >fact, to a wild flight of fancy in which there are a group of
 >wicked pelicans who will not believe anything anyone tells them.

Okay, simple question again:

In what unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you believe
that, all thiings considered, the witnesses were reporting
exactly what they saw? Which cases, for one example, of close
encounters with daylight discs?

 >I dare say I could trawl the newspapers of our two great nations
 >and find numerous examples of people who have been wrongly
 >identified by witnesses who were quite sure of their
 >descriptions. There have been any number of people who have been
 >wrongly convicted on the basis of such eyewitness evidence. If
 >you like, whenever I find such a miscarriage of justice I shall
 >post it on this forum, although I suspect our genial host might
 >soon put a stop to me.

My word. Don't you read what I have written repeatedly? Until I
brought up the matter of Sarah Ahn's testimony, pelicanists
somehow never got around to mentioning what they now,
unconvincingly, protest they have believed all along: that some
testimony is strikingly accurate. You're giving new meaning to
the adjective "disingenuous."

I am glad that you have finally caught up with the rest of us,
who have known all along that eyewitness testimony is sometimes
strikingly accurate. Note, since you have managed to miss all
previous qualifications, that I do not say "always." In
pelicanist polemic, until the last few days, even the sometime
accurate testimony somehow never got mentioned. The fact that
you are now conceding - however ungraciously - the obvious,
finally, gives me some hope for you guys. Not a lot, but some.

 >But what would be the point? Some eyewitnesses give good,
 >accurate accounts, whether they're five or fifty. Others,
 >irrespective of age, give false and misleading account -
 >sometimes even the same person. So what? It's what's discovered
 >afterwards that tells us whether the eyewitness was accurate.

 >>While pelicanists have a great deal - one might say everything -
 >>invested in the myth that eyewitness testimony can be dismissed
 >>out of hand (except, of course, when it is accurate enough to
 >>point the investigator to an IFO), real-life experience tells us
 >>otherwise. Instead of frantic rationalizations, bogus analogies,
 >>and desperate efforts to change the subject, pelicanists would
 >>be better off to shed their feathers and start proving their
 >>intellectual seriousness, as opposed to demonstrating their
 >>devotion to debunking ideology at any cost.

 >Jerry, you're rambling again.

Yeah, when the Lord made me, He made a ramblin' man.
Me and Hank Williams.

 >You're just making this stuff up.
 >I think a good subject for psycho-social study mught be the
 >over-reaction of mid-West UFO writers when people start pointing
 >out the fallacies in their arguments. Just what does the above
 >paragraph mean? Of course, any meaning in it is largely obscured
 >because you persist in this "pelicanism" nonsense. Perhaps if
 >you stopped attacking mythical birds which exist solely in your
 >own imagination, and started responding to what real people are
 >saying and writing, we might get somewhere.

I think that by your avoidance of my point, you've made it for
me. I guess I hit a nerve, didn't I?

Psychosocial ufology is debunking ufology by another name. A
true psychosocial ufology would investigate dispassionately -
  rather than with the rhetorical fervor of a John Rimmer or a
Magonia - all aspects of the human response to anomalies,
prominently including humans' often frantic attempt toexplain
them away. This is what I call anomaly-avoidance. Perhaps a
later generation of more ideologically neutral psychosocial
inquirers will give that subject the attention it so richly
deserves. If I'm around when they do, I'll urge them to go back
and read the pages of Magonia for particularly ripe examples.


Jerry Clark







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   Jul > Jul 26

                   Re: Rendlesham Documents Arrive - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:31:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:29:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Documents Arrive - Bruni


 >From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Rendlesham Documents Arrive
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:33:09 +0100

Hi Eric

I was interested to see your e-mails regarding the three
Rendlesham documents that were being withheld. You may recall
that I announced several months ago in UFO magazine, that I was
going to approach the Ombudsman with a view to obtaining these
documents. However, Lord Hill-Norton, whose intervention led to
the release of the MOD's Rendlesham files, and myself, realised
that there wasn't much to get excited about.

Actually, one of the documents is a duplicate of part of another.

There are no great revelations concerning the incident. They are
background notes and draft replies to a PQ (Parliamentary
Question) and a PE (Parliamentary Enquiry) and contain no
significant information not already in the public domain.

Background notes written in the pre code era can be a little
sharp, as civil servants commented frankly on MPs or their
constituents, fully believing these remarks wouldn't see the
light of day until they retired, if at all.


Best wishes

Georgina Bruni








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              Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:32:53 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Hamilton


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700
 >Subject: Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >NIDS has just issued a white paper outlining their theory that
 >the flying boomerangs may be military in origin.

 >Over the years I've uncovered some tantalizing hints in this
 >direction myself, so I'd be very interested if anyone here has
 >any comments on the NIDS paper.

 >I'm no aerospace engineer, but the technical stuff in this
 >report seems to be just a bit on the rough side.

 >Can anyone here with the requisite expertise review this article
 >with an eye toward confirming or denying some of the science
 >therein?

 >http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html">http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html

A very interesting report. This hypothesis was partially
advanced in 1988 in Popular Mechanics and again in 1997 for the
huge triangle seen over Phoenix.

NIDS goes a step further in describing non-conventional
propulsion modes. One of the interesting tie-ins NIDS references
is to the experiments with Lifters which are similar to
experiments that I carried out about 8 years ago with an
electronics engineer testing the Brown effect.

See: http://www.americanantigravity.com/

I have been in frequent contact with Tim Ventura, the author of
the website and a young experimenter who has done a lot of work
on his own. A lot of this started when I posted a notice on an
email list regarding a development made by Transdimensional
Technologies on a triangular assymetrical capacitor that had a
high voltage power source and levitated. Now the craze has
taken off and many are experimenting with Lifter variations.

Major aircraft companies were experimenting with antigravity in
the 1950s, only weren't so secret about doing so in the early
stages.

Donald Keyhoe wrote:

"Control of gravity is something that men have been dreaming
about for centuries. Now it appears that we are on the threshold
of achieving it. Its value, to the country that first attains
it, is incalculable. Our government, hoping fora technical
breakthrough, has set up 46 different research projects on
various aspects of gravity control. The Air Force is running 33
of these projects and the others are divided among five other
agencies.

Included in the 46 government projects are experiments and
research at two Air Force Laboratories (Flight Dynamics and
General Physics Research),RadioCorporation of America,
Massachusetts Institute of Technology and several technical
engineering centers. In addition, official projects are being
carried out at Barkley and Dexter Laboratories, Fitchburg,
Massachusetts; Israel Institute of Technology; the Universities
of California, Denver, Harvard, Indiana,Manchester (England),
Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, Purdue, Stockholm (Sweden),
Syracuse, Texas, and two New York schools - Queens College and
Yeshiva Graduate School of Science...

Private industry is also looking at the question of gravity
control with new seriousness.A large number of giant
corporations, including Bell Aerospace, General Electric, Hughes
Aircraft, Boeing, Douglas and many others, have set up gravity
projects."


Either nothing came out of all this research or advances were
made and it became a military secret.

The possibility of reverse engineering alien propulsion systems
is not out of the question either.

The LTAs referenced by NIDS (using published data on size,
weight, and thrust ratios). LTAs using conventional thrust would
be limited in acceleration as the fragile airframes of such
craft would be subject to excessive stress to overcome the
inertia required for supersonic flight and would most likely
disintegrate. However, a field-propelled craft may not be
subject to those same inertial and gravitational stressors and
might be able to perform as witnessed.

It is a hypothesis worth considering, but in order to verify it
I believe that investigators would have to come up with evidence
of a base of operations or VTOL ports of some type, the
manufacturer (Lockheed, Boeing??), documents, or whistleblower
engineers.

There is also the possibility that some triangles are HVA and
are ET. How do we rule that out?

A last note on a recent Triangle sighting here in Southern
California on Tuesday night, July 23rd around 10:15 - 11:00 PM.
So far three witnesses sighted this large craft with numerous
red lights giving it triangular shape. It crossed near LAX
flight path and many beach cities and the Palos Verdes Estates.

-Bill Hamilton








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:18:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:35:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:26:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:44:37 -0500

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:37:27 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

John and patient and gentle listfolk,

 >>>>Known named witnesses to the Trindade UFO photographed
 >>>>by A. Barauna:

 >>>>Cdr. Carlos Alberto Bacellar, director of the Trindade IGY station

 >>>"I was not a witness to the event because at that moment I was
 >>>in my cabin ... " Direct quotation, taken from Olavo Fontes
 >>>report.

 >No comment, Jerry?

Sorry I missed this one. John has thrown so much mud at this
case, in the so far forlorn hope that some of it will stick,
that it's easy to miss one pile of sludge heading in one's
direction amid the blizzard.

Bacellar is actually a secondary witness, who came out on deck
immediately after the witnesses observed the UFO's passage from
the deck. He observed their excitement and their discussion of
what they had just seen. Technically, John is correct, and I'm
sorry for the misunderstanding. Unfortunately for pelicanists,
Bacellar's testimony favors the authenticity of the sighting and
the photographs, not the reverse. Simple fact of the matter:
there _is_ no disconfirming testimony from witnesses and
investigators. I have repeatedly challenged John to provide it,
and he has yet to show us a single statement by (1) a witness
who, in a position to observe the UFO, denied seeing it or by
(2) an investigating authority who found reason to reject the
testimony or the presence of other witnesses. His "response" is
to speculate without a molecule of evidence.

 >>Are
 >>you aware of any statement from Ribeiro denying that he was a
 >>witness? Remember, this was a well-publicized sighting, and
 >>Ribeiro was surely well aware that he was being named as a
 >>witness. Nothing to date has demonstrated any statement of
 >>Barauna's to be dishonest. Unless you have specific reason to
 >>think otherwise, I see no reason to question the identification.

 >I'm sure you don't. However it is impossible, based on this
 >date, to describe Ribiero as a first hand witness. He may have
 >had a number of reasons not to come forward.

Ah, yes, the ol' unfalsifiable hypothesis. Besides, why bother
with actual evidence when you can conjure up airy speculations
that support what you want to believe?

 >>Why is it that _nobody_ involved in the investigation believed
 >>the incident to be a hoax, and that the hoax allegations all
 >>come from persons removed by years and thousands of miles from
 >>the event?

 >Maybe they just thought that after the President of the Republic
 >got interested in this, it might be best for their careers if
 >they just kept their heads below the parapet and remained
 >silent. Sheer speculation, I know, but you asked for
 >suggestions.

Ah, yes, the ol' unfalsifiable hypothesis. Why bother with
actual evidence... etc., etc.

 >>>>Farias de Azeved

 >>>"The photographer Farias de Azevedo, who was more distant,
 >>>didn't come in time to get photos." From statement by Barauna.
 >>>No further mention of this person.

 >>So?

 >So not a first hand witness. The 'evidence' that he was a
 >witness is based solely on Barauna's statement.

Perhaps if you could do something truly novel, such as produce
evidence that Barauna was a liar whose testimony can be rejected
out of hand - your implication that he was lying about this
would mean something. Lacking that, it means nothing, except
that you are desperate not to credit what every investigating
authority said about the Trindade sighting and photos: that
there were many witnesses, in two groups, and that they
testified that the photographs captured exactly what they saw.

Until you can provide us anything more than vaporous speculation
about why the Brazilian Navy should lie about this - and about
why not a single retraction or confession has come to light
despite massive publicity and continuing attention for decades -
further discussion serves no purpose, except to indulge you
as you grasp at straws.


Jerry Clark









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                Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:09:21 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:38:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa -


 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:05:56 -0400
 >Subject: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa

 >Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry:

http://mail.space.com//jump/http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992
589

Hmmm. Higher Dopamine levels is also linked to poorer
performance on IQ tests. This will surely provide fodder to
those Pelicanists out there.

-Bill Hamilton








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             Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:26:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:39:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Maccabee


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:42:05 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment


I have uploaded some processed versions of the Battle of LA
photo along with some cursory analysis indicating a size of the
object. Interested people should go to:

http://brumac.8k.com/battleofla/battleofla.html








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:41:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:38:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:55:41 EDT
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:34:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >>Personally, I'm just interesting in the astronomical and related
 >>stimuli for many UFO reports.

 >>You see, many of us are just fascinated with IFOs.

 >IFOs? Then why are you here?

 >Condon, et al, explained almost all the stimuli years ago...
 >Venus, meteors, and pelicans (plus a few balloons, satellites,
 >airplanes and helicopters) pretty much sum it up. Case closed.
 >There's no new phenomenon to analyze or report on. You could be
 >studying the average number of legs on ants instead of this
 >subject...

Dave:

I'm here because of the overwhelming certainty of learning about
many more IFOs.

 >So why not do something truly noble and pioneering such as
 >discovering a way to radically improve human vision (and
 >interpretation) without glasses or contacts, so that the
 >observers of the future (including 5-year-old girls) won't
 >mistake a huge, grey hulk of humming metal gliding just above
 >the trees, for a temperature inversion or a magnetically charged
 >whale? You'd do the world a favor!

And you are?

 >Desperately hoping for a cure from Bob the Brave and Noble,

Oh, aren't we patronizing?


Clear skies,

Bob Young

Saving the World from the scum of the Universe
-- Men in Black







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:42:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:50:48 +0100

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:02:04 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Cathy:

Thanks for this additional info and references.

<snip>

 >>"Literally thousands of studies have documented how our memories
 >>can be disrupted by things that we experienced earlier
 >>(proactive interference) or things that we experienced later
 >>(retroactive interference)..... The new, post-event information
 >>often becomes incorporated into the recollection, supplementing
 >>or altering it, sometimes in dramatic ways.....

 >Unfortunately most of these "thousands of studies" turn out to
 >be quite astonishingly banal. By far the vast majority of them
 >deal with wordlists in laboratory settings which don't even get
 >as far as paying lip service to the issue of ecological
 >validity. These are the sorts of memory errors which happen when
 >you find you've forgotten your shopping list and can't remember
 >what was on it, and so end up buying two cans of chopped
 >tomatoes instead of three cans of peeled plum tomatoes.  Even
 >Loftus' own much-hyped studies deal almost exclusively with the
 >substitution of irrelevant background detail.  Rocket science it
 >isn't.

I guess you could be thinking of her early "red (I think it was)
barn" study, where a suggestion by a questioner apparently
became part of the memory of witnesses to an accident film?

It might be banal but is exactly the kind of "background" info
which turns many sightings of Venus into hovering alien space-
  ships with little men waving from the windows.  The source of
most of what passes for the exciting parts of IFO reports seems
to be the culture.

 >In any case, the statistical design of experimental psychology
 >is intrinsically unfalsifiable - it is actually not possible,
 >even in principle, to obtain and publish a systematic pattern of
 >negative results. This means that if you set up an experiment to
 >test for "false memory" or "eye witness error" and do it often
 >enough, you're certain to end up with positive results
 >eventually through accumulated noise, bias, demand
 >characteristics and experimental error alone.

I don't quite catch on, here. How does accumulated noise,
presumeably from accumulated studies, end up creating a positive
result?

<snip>

 >Cognitive psychology, by the way, is the only supposedly "hard
 >science" I know of where it's possible to obtain a professorship
 >and at the same time be mathematically completely illiterate.
 >If you want to hear some real muddled thinking, circular
 >reasoning and breathtaking illogic, don't bother chasing UFO
 >researchers - spend a few months as a research assistant on a
 >cognitive psychology project.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:04:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:43:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:48:33 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >We all know you never put it into words, but it is certainly
 >implied by the way you handle UFO reports. Your hand-waving
 >dismissal of the Ohio Ravenna case as an example of people
 >seeing nothing but Venus still lingers in my mind as an example
 >of such.

<snip>

 >Yes folks, Bob believes Venus can light up an entire road and
 >hover above people's heads. And you wonder why you're being
 >compared to Menzel at times. Don't take that as a compliment, it
 >isn't.

Jean:

Thanks, anyway.

Clear skies,

Bob Young

The Donald Menzel Appreciation Society








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                    Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002 - Filer

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:52:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:48:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002 - Filer


 >From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:59:17 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #30 - 2002

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:29:04 EDT
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #30 - 2002

 ><I just read Filer's Files #30 - 2002. Unfortunately, the story
 >about Afanasyev and UFOs is a hoax. I have no idea who would
 >generate such a hoax, and doubt that it would be Afanasyev
 >himself.

 >Here are some facts about him.....
 >Viktor Mikhaylovich Afanasyev, Hero of the Soviet Union,
 >Cosmonaut Number 70 of the USSR.

<snip>

Dear Paul,

I feel the story is genuine to my knowledge, but they may have
announced the wrong date of the sighting. It was on a
'Sightings' show on Channel 57 Philidelphia a few years ago
around Christmas... Lt.Col. Tim White says the Cosmonaut was on
his way to the Soyuz 6, in April of 79, when he spotted the UFO.

James Oberg began the piece discussing ice in space, then the
Cosmonaut Afanasyev is standing in front of rocket in Star City,
Russia being interviewed telling his story and drawing his
shown. He is apparently speaking in Russian but there is a voice
over speaking English. The piece indicates the sighting happened
recently, the December 1990, flight sounds more reasonable,

Next was Dr.Story Muscrave's interview about seeing a snake like
UFO in space. Henry Winkler produced the show. I have talked to
Tim White and he stands behind the series and statements. Its
possible they had the wrong date. They mentioned the film was
shot shortly after the Soviet Union became Russia. They also
mentioned it happened recently then said in April 79, that did
not seem to fit. The Cosmonaut went on to say it was classified
under the Soviets but, wasn't apparently classified under new
Russia.

I guess its possible they were mistaken or lying? I've asked
some Russians to check it out? I have the tape for anyone to
see. Col. Maria Popovitch also made allusions to Cosmonauts
seeing UFOs.

COSMONAUT VICTOR AFANASYEV'S DRAWING of an elongated flying
triangle UFO seen flying formation in April 1979, with his space
vehicle website is on my website. Victor states, "I think we are
not alone, something of extraterrestrial origin has visited
Earth." The alien craft turned toward ours, followed us and flew
formation 25 to 29 meters away. We photographed the metallic
engineering structure that was and 40 meters long. The film was
later confiscated. See his drawing at:

http://www.filersfiles.com/news/images.php?id=69


Thanks for the info.

Regards,

George Filer











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                Military Jets Chase Blue Light Over Maryland

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:34:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:50:49 -0400
Subject: Military Jets Chase Blue Light Over Maryland


An all news station in Washington, DC (WTOP-AM) has been running
the following story throughout the day.  They have a little
information on their web site, and I'm providing that
information below.

http://wtopnews.com/news/newsdetail.cfm?newsid=584517

A local investigator has been contacted and has been asked to
get involved in this case, and that should be done relatively
quickly.  As noted in the story, this is apparently a multiple
witness event:

=====begin forwarded story=======

What was that bright light in Maryland's sky???

WTOP has learned that residents near Andrews Air Force base were
shaken from their beds early Friday morning by some strange
activity in the air.

"Incredible. Absolutely incredible" is what Renny Rogers of
Waldorf calls it. Just before two in the morning, Rogers says he
saw a large blue ball of light streaking across the sky. But it
was the military jets that really startled him.

"(The jets) were right on its tail. As the thing would move, a
jet was right behind it," Rogers recalls.

He is not the only one who saw it. Several people called WTOP
Radio reporting seeing a bright blue or orange ball moving very
fast, being chased by jets.

Rogers says there was no smoke coming from the object, no
flashing lights, and says it was smooth, and eerily silent.

The Air National Guard confirms they scrambled the 113th
squadron. Spokesman Sheldon Smith says they are investigating
and in contact with NORAD.

WTOP Radio, 2002








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              F-16 Scramble - ANG Admission & NORAD Involvement

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:40:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:36:26 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - ANG Admission & NORAD Involvement


Would anyone have any solid info as to when the last time any
military agency acknowledged to scrambling on a suspected UFO? I
may be looking at this from the wrong perspective but it seems
the very admission by ANG that they undertook investigation is
making this quite a story. I don't think it's the terrorist
climate either, simply because all one needs to do is review UFO
reports from the past few years and we have loads of eyewitness
claims to UFOs being pursued by jets.

What makes this different might be why the ANG didn't simply
deny involvement in it completely? Some UFO claims from Ohio in
the past few years come to mind involving jets in pursuit of
UFOs, and they do not necessarily involve flare deployments.

Would there be video from any ground witnesses? How about
reports to local police agencies? Name the pilots!!! Do they
have onboard videos from the F-16 cockpits, where is the radar
and/or satellite optical data that led to the scramble, etc? Is
this material releasable or (probably) classified? Did they wake
The President?

Many questions here.....


Thanks,
Kenny Young








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                F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:05:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:45:54 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:34:10 -0400
 >Subject: Military Jets Chase Blue Light Over Maryland

<snip>

 >The Fund has asked that a local investigator get
 >involved in this case, and that should be done relatively
 >quickly.  As noted in the story, this is apparently a
 >multiple witness event:

Steven;

Thanks for the note. I have made a few calls already. Please
receive the attached report and feel free to submit it to the
local investigator once one is identified so as to avoid
unnecessary steps. - KY

-----

The Charles County Sheriff's headquarters in Waldorf, Maryland
was contacted at 301-932-2222 and I spoke with the duty officer
who was not on-duty the previous evening and was also not
advised of any such reports. He did undertake a brief search of
the records but did not see reference to any reports of unusual
lights in his logs.

A Charles County office of the Maryland State Police was then
contacted at 301-392-1200. The dispatcher taking my call
informed that she had been on duty last night and received no
reports or complaints of unusual lights. She also had no
knowledge of any police officers reporting anything similar.

Filed,
July 26, 2002
Kenny Young







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                  Washington F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:21:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:33:03 -0400
Subject: Washington F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript


Many thanks to FOX NEWS Channel for their sober reportage and
investigation (ongoing, hopefully) of the F-16 scramble near
Andrews AFB on July 26, 2002. The following transcript is a
word-for-word rundown of their report, as I caught on video as
it was broadcast. Note the clear emphasis the reportage placed
on the discrepancies from ground witness testimony vs. (alleged)
pilot testimony. Again, thanks to FOX News for some cutting edge
journalism here.

Transcript of FOX NEWScast, dated JULY 26, 2002 around 7:40 p.m.
E.D.T.

SHEPARD SMITH: The night time skies over the nation's capital
alive with blue and orange lights streaking across the sky, so
say a lot of panicked people who called in to a radio station,
no joke here. American fighter jets in hot pursuit... NORAD
confirmed to FOX News that 2 F-16s did scramble, but found
nothing! A mystery in the sky above Andrews Air Force Base...
that's the one The President uses. Fox report now from Brian
Wilson live in our D.C. newsroom. Brian?

BRIAN WILSON: Fair to say, Shepard. A lot more questions than
answers at this point, but something strange was going on in
the Maryland night sky.

Here is what we know; 1:00 a.m. the folks at NORAD saw something
they couldn't identify in Maryland airspace, not far from the
nation's capitol. The track it was taking caused them some
concern so they scrambled 2 DC Air National Guard jets to check
things out.

Now, DC Air National Guard confirms that 2 F-16s from the 113th
Wing were vectored to intercept whatever it was that NORAD was
worried about. However, when the pilots got where they were
supposed to be, they said they didn't see anything when they
arrived on the scene.

Now the folks at NORAD would not provide details about the exact
location, direction or speed of the object they were tracking.

Now independently, a number of folks who live in Waldorf,
Maryland, which is not far from Andrews Air Force Base and not
far from the nation's capitol, called local radio station WTOP
to say that about the same, they witnessed a fast moving, bright
blue light in the sky. They go on to claim that the light was
being chased by military jets.

One witness tells the radio station that the jets were right on
its tail. Quote: "as the thing would move, a jet was right
behind it..." end of quote.

An investigation is underway. But National Guard spokesman
Captain Sheldon Smith says, and this is another quote, "We don't
have any information about funny lights."

By the way, this just happens to be the 50th anniversary of a
series of still-unexplained sightings over the nation's
capitol, a story that made banner-headline news in 1952.
Shepard, we'll continue to watch for this.

SHEPARD SMITH: And now it can be told... Brian Wilson, live in
Washington.


END OF TRANSCRIPT
Typed from videotape of FOX NEWS 7:00 p.m. E.D.T. newscast

Filed,
Kenny Young, 7-27-02








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:50:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:04:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:27:53 -0500

 >Patient and gentle listfolk:

 >Reading my posting just now, I realized that a major point needs
 >to be made here, concerning the essential incoherence of the
 >pelicanist argument against the Trindade sighting and
 >photographs. In point of fact, it was made originally by APRO in
 >its extended coverage - quoting at length from press accounts
 >and official documents - as the story was beginning to emerge in
 >the English-speaking world.

 >As repeated statements make clear, there were many witnesses to
 >the UFO's presence. Not a single statement from an investigating
 >officer - or from a "witness" asserting that, all other
 >testimony notwithstanding, no UFO appeared while he was in a
 >position to view it - denies that. The witnesses, as we know
 >from Navy documents, were in two groups, one at the front and
 >the other at the rear of the ship.

Of course, if no other witness was in a position to view it, why
would they want to deny it?

 >>>I think I have demonstrated that there are enough questions and
 >>>ambiguities about this case, that statements such as "there is
 >>>absolutely no doubt whatever about the authenticity of these
 >>>Named as a witness and gives a statement. Although a friend of
 >>>Barauna, he is allowed to accompany the photographer to the
 >>>darkroom when he developed his film. Was he also required to
 >>>strip to his underpants to ensure there was no fraud?

 >What "fraud"? APRO lays this incoherent charge to rest by
 >stating the obvious problem:

It wasn't me who made Barauna strip-off while he develped the
film, it was Bacellar. He must presumably have though that at
least the possibilty of fraud would have been raised and it was
worth taking some elementary precautions against it.

I just wonder if, having insisted that Barauna stripped off, he
also asked his friend who accompanied him into the darkroom to
do the same.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                   Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:39:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:16:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area - Rimmer


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:02:32 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Crop Circle In Basel Area

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:19:42 +0200
 >>Subject: Crop Circle In Basel Area

 >>New place of pilgrimage: a grain circle in the Baselbiet

 >What countries have never reported crop circles within their
 >boundaries?

Tuvalu, Kiribati, Vatican City and the Principality of Monaco.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:33:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:18:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:13:58 +0100

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >I know I'm jumping in on someone else's thread again, but there
 >are some serious issues here I really would like to explore some
 >more.

 >John, I have been following this thread pretty closely and as
 >far as I can see, no-one has actually claimed that eye-witness
 >testimony is immune to error.

Just as no-one has argued that eyewitness testimony is
invariably erroneous.

 >But there are some serious
 >questions here about what sort of errors occur, what sort of
 >processes cause them to come about and to what extent one can
 >generalize from their occurrence to postulate other sorts of
 >errors in other sorts of situations.

 >For example, I'd like to take your point about ball-lightning.
 >I'm not entirely sure what you're saying about that. Are you
 >saying that eye-witness testimony alone can never be sufficient
 >to establish that any particular theoretical model of
 >ball-lightning is correct? I think that would be an entirely fair
 >point and I can't believe anyone would seriously disagree with
 >it. Or are you instead saying that eye witness testimony alone
 >can never be sufficient to establish the existence of an
 >anomalous phenomenon to which the name "ball-lightning" is
 >conventionally given? Because if that is what you are saying,
 >then I think you are on very dodgy ground scientifically.

I apologise. My response was carelessly phrased. I make my usual
rather unconvincing excuse that due to the time difference and
the pressures of a working day I am writing most of my responses
to these postings at a late hour. Pathetic, I know!

I accept your point that eyewitness testimony is sufficient to
establish the existence of a phenomenon known as "ball
lightning". But that in a way is as unsatisfactory as having a
phenomenon which can be identified as a "UFO". Eyewitness
testimony also establishes that there is a phenomena to which
the name of "ghost" is given, but this does not prevent ghosts
from being far from a proven fact. I suggest that far more
people have seen ghosts than seen ball-lightning!

Ball lighting is a much less controversial phenomenon that
ghosts, but it is not yet entirely above dispute as to its
nature. I guess I was rather surprised that a scientist would
appear to have based his opinion on the phenomenon entirely on
reports of eyewitnesses. I would have expected more of an
explanation or qualification.

Had he said "I have heard several eyewitness reports about
people seeing unidentified flying objects and I have no doubt
that they exist", in a way this would be a completely accurate
statement, but I would not expect such a claim to be made
without qualification. If it had, it would certainly have been
jumped upon by the reporter.

 >The problem is, if you're trying to assert the second
 >proposition, then you have the burden of proof of explaining
 >what sort of perceptual or memory error, operating under what
 >sort of conditions and caused by what sort of functional
 >process, is implicated in the generation of eye witness reports
 >of ball lightning. Simply saying "Well, sometimes witnesses
 >identify the wrong defendant in a police line-up" isn't good
 >enough - that's an example of an unsupported generalization. By
 >this sort of reasoning, you could generalize to absolutely any
 >conclusion whatever from a single data point, without being
 >constrained by any kind of theoretical structure - which indeed,
 >is precisely what Loftus, Kihlstrom and their acolytes in the
 >FMSF regularly do.

A number of people have attempted to explain the sorts of
perceptual errors which may have generated reports of ball
lightning. It is not a subject I have studied in any great
detail, except to be aware that - at least until fairly recently
- it was not universally accepted by the scientific community. I
am not arguing the rights and wrongs of the case, just noting
that this was the position.

I quite agree that simply saying "Well, sometimes witnesses
identify the wrong defendant in a police line-up" isn't good
enough. But neither is presenting one case where a young child
successfully identified a criminal as evidence that eyewitness
testimony is invariably infallible.

 >I may have mis-read you here, and if so I apologize, but it does
 >seem to me that you come perilously close in this discussion to
 >discounting eye-witness testimony on the grounds that it is
 >subject to random errors of unlimited magnitude. I would never
 >try to tell you what threshold of evidence you should accept
 >personally, but there is no way such a conclusion could be
 >scientifically supportable.

Certainly, and it would be more productive if this discussion
were about what that threshold of evidence might be in different
cases and under different conditions, father than arguing for an
absolutist position, or accusing others of adopting an
absolutist position.


Regards

John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:39:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:02:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
 >>any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
 >>the testimony of people who say saw a meteor? I mean after all
 >>unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
 >>evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
 >>DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
 >>other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
 >>with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
 >>people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?

 >Come on, people, let's get real. We know what we're up against.
 >Meteors are proven to exist, UFOs (as nuts-and bolts craft) are

In essence we are saying because meteors are proven to exist,
then we should accept any and all testimony given by people that
fits the description of of meteor-like behavior. Using the
skeptibunker standards of proof, besides the witness testimony
which is generally disregarded as unreliable for various
reasons, we then have to get an actual sample or piece of the
meteor to in fact prove that it was a meteor that traveled in
the night sky.

 >not. Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >into the hallowed halls of science. I can live with the fact

The so-called "hallowed halls of science" are full of smoke and
mirrors of extraordinary claims. Take the extraordinary claim
that the age of the universe is no longer 4.6 billion years-old
(the so-called 'scientifically acceptable theory' since the 30s)
but is now 12-16 billion years-old. What so-called
'extraordinary proof' did they come up with for that? It was
solely based upon the 'interpretation' of the Hubble space
telescope. As I recall it was based upon finding matter, which
according to the interpretation was older then 4 billion years.
Now using the skeptibunker logic trail we could not accept the
photo interpretation as being accurate (let this bring to mind
various studys on the Trent photos over the years) but we would
in fact have to have a sample of this so-called 'older matter'
to test in a lab here on earth. Fact is, they never got a sample
and moved the age of the univerise back to the now so-called
Scientifically Acceptable view-point of around 14 billion years. I
have heard arguments of people quibbling that it was actually 12
billion years and others quibbling that it was really 16 but the
bottom line is based upon a photograph the age got bumped
another 9 or so billion years.

I would call all the alleged and claimed scientific tales and
stories about global ice age, global warming as being
extraordinary.

In the 70s all the so-called scientific community said earth was
going to go into a giant ice age all based upon their scientific
examination of the evidence. In the 80s we heard global warming
and green house. Then it was cooling again, and we are back to
warming. All attributed to the evils of man, but wait, some say
based upon studys of ice or tree cores that in fact and in
reality that the earth cycled hot and cold and has gone through
warming cycles of up to 4 degrees and cooling cycles. The list
goes on and on, and on, and on.

The thing to remember is that main-stream science will readily
accept an extraordinary photo interpretation that claims the
universe is 14 billion years-old without physical evidence. If
you present the same scientists with a photo of a UFO, they will
start telling us how, suddenly, they need actual proof that they
can take into the lab and analyize and prove that it is in fact
a space-ship. They will probably then tell us that the standards
of proof was raised allegedly due to the so-called implications
of the photo, blah, blah, blah.

Look at the thread awhile back where the founders of CSICOP
claimed the group was not interested in Science or scientific
[investigation].

 >that eyewitness testimony is not extraordinary proof of UFOs
 >being nuts-and-bolts craft. Even skeptibunkers will grudgingly
 >admit that there are some fascinating reports out there that
 >defy facile explanation (uh, you DO, don't you); where we differ

In truth they won't.

To them 'unidentified' does not mean space-ship, it means that
they can't readily and easily explain it now, but hopefully, at
some time in the future some/any explaination other than
space-ship will come forward.

 >is that we think the sheer number and quality of reports
 >bears

Agreed,

 >further scrutiny, whereas they seem to be satisfied that,
 >because 90% of cases are explainable, therefore 100% are
 >_probably_ explainable.

Kind of like my friend in the car industry was telling me years
ago, that a large percentage of cars sold are red in color (at
least at that point) so, because a large percentage of cars sold
are red, this in fact means that all cars are colored red. So
goes the logic of the skeptibunker.


Cheers,

Robert








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:03:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:09:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
 >>any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
 >>the testimony of people who say saw a meteor? I mean after all
 >>unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
 >>evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
 >>DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
 >>other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
 >>with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
 >>people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?

If I go out any clear night and stand around for long enough, I
can pretty well guarantee that I will see a meteor. They have a
predictable appearance, they act in a predictable manner which
is in accordance with the known laws of physics. It can even be
predicted that they will appear in greater numbers at particular
times of the year. They can be photographed regularly and under
controlled conditions. They can be studied
photospectroscopically, and their composition can be determined.
Need I go on? Let me know when the same conditions can be
applied to UFO sightings, and we'll have something to discuss.

 >Come on, people, let's get real. We know what we're up against.
 >Meteors are proven to exist, UFOs (as nuts-and bolts craft) are
 >not. Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >into the hallowed halls of science. I can live with the fact
 >that eyewitness testimony is not extraordinary proof of UFOs
 >being nuts-and-bolts craft. Even skeptibunkers will grudgingly
 >admit that there are some fascinating reports out there that
 >defy facile explanation (uh, you DO, don't you); where we differ
 >is that we think the sheer number and quality of reports bears
 >further scrutiny, whereas they seem to be satisfied that,
 >because 90% of cases are explainable, therefore 100% are
 >_probably_ explainable.

Thank goodness for a bit of balance on this thread. I know it's
a cliche, but extraordinary claims *do* require extraordinary
proof. Whilst refusing to acknoledge that the term
"skeptibunker" has any meaning, I certainly agree that sceptical
ufologists are more than grudgingly prepared to admit that there
are fascinating reports out there. I think where people get
upset is when we claim that those fascinating reports tell us
more about the human condition than anything outside ourselves.
This is my personal interest.

I find it remarkable that anyone should be surprised when people
suggest that the more remarkable the claim, the more the onus is
on the person presenting the claim to make out a case for it,
and the more open they are to challenge if they fail to do this.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:05:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:15:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:04:56 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case - van Gemert

 >>From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:48:33 +0200
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Jean,

 >>We all know you never put it into words, but it is certainly
 >>implied by the way you handle UFO reports. Your hand-waving
 >>dismissal of the Ohio Ravenna case as an example of people
 >>seeing nothing but Venus still lingers in my mind as an example
 >>of such.

 >>Yes folks, Bob believes Venus can light up an entire road and
 >>hover above people's heads. And you wonder why you're being
 >>compared to Menzel at times. Don't take that as a compliment, it
 >>isn't.

 >Thanks, anyway.

You nailed him, Jean. Bob would _never_ whisper a hint of
dissent from the squawked pronouncements of Menzel, the Great
Pelican himself. If you can't nod your head in utter, absolute
agreement with your fellow debunkers, you can't be in the club.
Bob's lifetime membership is safe.


For a sky clear of pelicans,

Jerry Clark








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:16:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Okay, simple question:

 >In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

Travis Walton


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/26/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:43:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:21:26 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/26/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 67
July 26, 2002


**      INTEL BUDGET TO REACH RECORD HIGH IN 2003
**      A LIMITED FOIA EXEMPTION FOR HOMELAND SECURITY
**      RUMSFELD SEEKS FBI ROLE IN LEAK INVESTIGATION
**      PLUTONIUM-238 INVENTORY DROPS
**      SOUTH AFRICAN HISTORY NEWS
**      QIAN XUESEN SPEAKS OUT ON "THE THREE REPRESENTS"
**      SCIENCE AND SECRECY


INTEL BUDGET TO REACH RECORD HIGH IN 2003

Intelligence spending is likely to reach a record high level in
the coming fiscal year, exceeding an annual expenditure of $35
billion.

The House version of the 2003 intelligence authorization bill,
adopted early on July 25, "recommends substantially more money,
many billions of dollars more, than was provided for the current
fiscal year," said Rep. Nancy Pelosi, ranking member of the
House Intelligence Committee. "If the amounts recommended in the
bill are appropriated, the [intelligence] community will receive
the largest one-year increase in funding on a percentage basis
in at least the last two decades."

A Democratic aide told reporters the new spending level would be
25 percent higher than the amount approved last year, or well
over $35 billion.

The conceit that the total intelligence budget figure is
sensitive information that must not be disclosed remains intact.

The House approved an amendment, sponsored by Rep. Tim Roemer,
to establish an independent commission to investigate the
September 11 attacks.

The largely desultory House floor debate on the 2003
Intelligence Authorization Act is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/h072402.html

A July 24 White House Statement of Administration Policy that
takes issue with a few points in the House bill is available
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/07/sap-hr4628.html


A LIMITED FOIA EXEMPTION FOR HOMELAND SECURITY

A compromise that would significantly limit the scope of a
Freedom of Information Act exemption for private sector
information held by the proposed Department of Homeland Security
was reached in the Senate this week.

"The compromise would limit the exemption to 'records' submitted
by the private sector, not 'information' from the private
sector," according to a release from Senator Patrick Leahy's
office.  The implications of that distinction, and other
features of the Senate compromise, are explained here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/07/leahy-foi.html


RUMSFELD SEEKS FBI ROLE IN LEAK INVESTIGATION

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld noted yesterday that the Air
Force Office of Special Investigations has begun working to
identify the source of a classified leak to the New York Times
concerning potential Iraqi war plans.  He said that the FBI
would also be asked to investigate.

"I hope that they [the FBI] will decide that this is something
that they do want to participate in," Secretary Rumsfeld said at
a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on July 25.  "And if
they don't, why, I'll probably encourage them."  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/07/sasc072502.html


PLUTONIUM-238 INVENTORY DROPS

The amount of plutonium-238 that is available to NASA for use in
space missions has dropped faster than anticipated due to
demands from an undisclosed national security agency.

See "National Security Needs Cut into NASA's Plutonium
Inventory" by Brian Berger of Space News, published July 24:

http://www.space.com/news/nasa_plutonium_020724.html

Plutonium-238 is used to produce low levels of electrical power
(less than one kilowatt) from the natural heat of decay of the
radioactive isotope, which has a half-life of 87.5 years.
  Plutonium heat sources have been used in the U.S. space program
since 1961.  They are also used for classified terrestrial
applications to provide power in remote locations.


SOUTH AFRICAN HISTORY NEWS

In one of the first successful applications of South Africa's
recent freedom of information law, the non-governmental South
African History Archive has won unprecedented access to
apartheid-era military intelligence records.

See "History Archive Wins Access to 'Secret' Apartheid-Era
Documents" from the African Eye News Service, July 24:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200207240385.html

Information about the South African History Archive (SAHA) is
available here:

http://www.wits.ac.za/saha/programme.htm

SAHA will hold a workshop on July 31 in Johannesburg on
"Unlocking South Africa's Nuclear Past."  The objective of the
workshop is to "examine the benefits, risks, and feasibility of
declassifying further historical information about the
apartheid-era South African nuclear weapons programme."


QIAN XUESEN SPEAKS OUT ON "THE THREE REPRESENTS"

Qian Xuesen, the scientist who was deported from the United
States in the 1950s under suspicion of espionage and who went on
to become the architect of the Chinese ballistic missile
program, surfaced last month in the Chinese press to endorse
President Jiang Zemin's quasi-neo-Marxist doctrine of "the three
represents" (don't ask).

"The allegations that he was spying for the PRC are presumed to
be true," the congressional Cox Committee on Chinese espionage
declared in 1999.

But the available evidence does not justify that conclusion,
according to author Iris Chang, who wrote a biography of Qian
Xuesen (also known as Tsien Hsue-shen) entitled "Thread of the
Silkworm" (Basic Books, 1995).

See "On Comrade Qian Xuesen's Study of Important Thinking of
'Three Represents'," published June 24 in Beijing Renmin Ribao
and translated by the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information
Service:

http://www.fas.org/news/china/2002/062402qian.html

Theodore von Karman, the distinguished mathematician and
aeronautical scientist who was Qian's mentor at Cal Tech, is
fancifully referred to by the CIA translator as "Carmen."


SCIENCE AND SECRECY

Scientists are grappling with the question of their
responsibility for the consequences of the research that they
publish, according to a July 26 report in the New York Times.

See "Scientists Worry Journals May Aid Terrorists" by Nicholas
Wade:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/26/science/26RESE.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Linda Kerth <LINDAKERTH@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:38:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:25:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >I dare say I could trawl the newspapers of our two great nations
 >and find numerous examples of people who have been wrongly
 >identified by witnesses who were quite sure of their
 >descriptions. There have been any number of people who have been
 >wrongly convicted on the basis of such eyewitness evidence. If
 >you like, whenever I find such a miscarriage of justice I shall
 >post it on this forum, although I suspect our genial host might
 >soon put a stop to me.


This thread has gone on for some time, as is the usual case. For
information concerning eyewitness testimony, memory repression,
eyewitness suggestibility, false memory syndrome, criteria for
courtroom testimony and related topics, I have stumbled across
some interesting bibliographies:

http://comp.uark.edu/~lampinen/biblio.html

34 pages


http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/memories1.htm

16 pages

and related article (see bottom of refs): "Recovered memories
in the courtroom"

Another good source (use browser) is the:
Family Research Laboratory, Univ. New Hampshire (Durham, N.H.). Go to:

http://www.unh.edu/frl

and drop down to Bibliographies of FRL publications (especially
Family Violence Research).

Now would be a good time to mention a study by Linda Williams,
who examined 129 women from a large city who were a subset of
206 cases of child sexual abuse as documented by city hospital
ER records from 1973-1975. In 1990 and 1991, 17 years after the
abuse, 129 of these victims, now all young women, were located
and interviewed. Of these, 38% reported _no memory whatsoever_
of the abuse, in spite of prior documentation. Those who did not
recollect the assault, as compared to those women who had
continuous memory of the event, had more memory problems in
general and more psychological problems. So repression of bad
things is maybe not such a good thing?

See Williams, L.M. 1992. Adult Memories of Childhood Abuse:
Preliminary Findings... APCAC Advisor, pp. 19-21. Or Williams,
L.M. 1994. Recall of Childhood Trauma: AProspective Study.
Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 62 (6):
1167- 1176.

So... the _real_ problem appears to be _repression_ of traumatic
memories, not necessarily that women are recalling things that
never happened, through hypnosis, talk therapies or any other
therapeutic approach.

Now, what if we apply that 38% to those who have forgotten - and
then later recalled - a memory of a UFO encounter? Or abduction?
Does later recall seem so implausible given the reference above?


Respectfully submitted,

Linda Kerth
lindakerth@aol.com







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Linda Kerth <LINDAKERTH@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:01:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:31:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:50:48 +0100

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:02:04 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>"Literally thousands of studies have documented how our memories
 >>>can be disrupted by things that we experienced earlier
 >>>(proactive interference) or things that we experienced later
 >>>(retroactive interference)..... The new, post-event information
 >>>often becomes incorporated into the recollection, supplementing
 >>>or altering it, sometimes in dramatic ways.....

 >>Unfortunately most of these "thousands of studies" turn out to
 >>be quite astonishingly banal. By far the vast majority of them
 >>deal with wordlists in laboratory settings which don't even get
 >>as far as paying lip service to the issue of ecological
 >>validity. These are the sorts of memory errors which happen when
 >>you find you've forgotten your shopping list and can't remember
 >>what was on it, and so end up buying two cans of chopped
 >>tomatoes instead of three cans of peeled plum tomatoes. Even
 >>Loftus' own much-hyped studies deal almost exclusively with the
 >>substitution of irrelevant background detail. Rocket science it
 >>isn't.

 >I guess you could be thinking of her early "red (I think it was)
 >barn" study, where a suggestion by a questioner apparently
 >became part of the memory of witnesses to an accident film?

 >It might be banal but is exactly the kind of "background" info
 >which turns many sightings of Venus into hovering alien space-
 >ships with little men waving from the windows. The source of
 >most of what passes for the exciting parts of IFO reports seems
 >to be the culture.

<snip>


Hello, Mr. Young:

Pardon me for jumping into this thread. Actually I think you are
referring to an experiment by Loftus which consisted of a series
of slides which showed various stop-frame views of an apparent
accident. Following the slide show, respondents are asked to
recall certain visually presented data, such as the color of the
vehicle which hit the second vehicle, or whether there was a
stop sign at the corner, or whether this in fact was a yield
sign, etc.

This is typical of a lot of experimental studies by Loftus and
others, who fail to distinguish between central or core
information (e.g., there was a two car accident at a corner)
with relatively non-essential or incidental information (e.g.
color or make of the automobiles). Myself, I wouldn't recognize
a Studebaker from an Edsel and could care less. Being an artist,
I _might_ recall the color of either one of the vehicles or the
other. You, on the other hand, being male, might more easily
recall the type of vehicles involved. It's not so much a case of
"we see what we want to see" as it is "we see what we feel is
important to us" - in a sense, of what we have primed ourselves
to take notice by prior experience.

The major problem with such experimental protocols is that they
simply do not even approach real-life situations in their impact
and immediacy. Sitting in a dark room, safe and secure in an
experimental laboratory, is vastly different that standing on a
corner witnessing an actual accident (especially if one feels
personal danger). Ergo, whatever Loftus's experimental findings
may be, they will never approximate real situations, and cannot
be generalized to such.

There is much experimental literature, BTW, which shows that
visual memory in situations of heightened awareness (such as in
potentially dangerous situaltions) is really quite good,
especially as far as central (or gist) information is concerned.
Information that is critical to survival in such situations is
almost etched on the mind, as it were. By the same token,
sideral information, data that is not _central_ to what is going
on, is very variable.  Such as the color of a vehicle, or
perhaps its license plate number, when that vehicle is about to
run you down. Personally, I believe that such visual processing
is hard-wired into our brains, as we would not have survived as
a species without it. When one is being charged by a mastodon,
one does not stop to count the gray hairs on its chin, or to
note the color of its eyes or to make an informed guess as to
its age. One simply gets the hell out of the way!

Regards,

Linda
lindakerth@aol.com








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   Jul > Jul 27

                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:53:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:18:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:18:31 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:26:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >Bacellar is actually a secondary witness, who came out on deck
 >immediately after the witnesses observed the UFO's passage from
 >the deck.

By "secondary witness" you mean someone who didn't actually see the
thing they were witnessing? Fine.

 >He observed their excitement and their discussion of
 >what they had just seen. Technically, John is correct, and I'm
 >sorry for the misunderstanding. Unfortunately for pelicanists,
 >Bacellar's testimony favors the authenticity of the sighting and
 >the photographs, not the reverse.

Bacellar came on deck attracted by "the racing of people to the
ship's deck attracted by the shouts of those who sighted the
object". Who these shouting people were or how many of them
there were, we are not told.

Here's something falsifiable: I claim that these people were
Barauna, Viegas and (possibly) Vieira. Jerry Clark can falsify
this statement by finding another single direct eyewitness
report from someone who was on deck and saw the UFO at the same
time as Barauna.

 >Simple fact of the matter:
 >there _is_ no disconfirming testimony from witnesses and
 >investigators. I have repeatedly challenged John to provide it,
 >and he has yet to show us a single statement by (1) a witness
 >who, in a position to observe the UFO, denied seeing it or by
 >(2) an investigating authority who found reason to reject the
 >testimony or the presence of other witnesses. His "response" is
 >to speculate without a molecule of evidence.

Perhaps Jerry could produce a single statement by a witness, who
was not part of Barauna's group, saying that he *did* see the
object.

 >>>Are
 >>>you aware of any statement from Ribeiro denying that he was a
 >>>witness? Remember, this was a well-publicized sighting, and
 >>>Ribeiro was surely well aware that he was being named as a
 >>>witness.

Are you aware of any statement from Ribiero saying he *was* a
witness?

 >Nothing to date has demonstrated any statement of
 >>>Barauna's to be dishonest. Unless you have specific reason to
 >>>think otherwise, I see no reason to question the identification.

 >>I'm sure you don't. However it is impossible, based on this
 >>date, to describe Ribiero as a first hand witness. He may have
 >>had a number of reasons not to come forward.

 >Ah, yes, the ol' unfalsifiable hypothesis. Besides, why bother
 >with actual evidence

What evidence? Ribiero's non-existent statement?

 >when you can conjure up airy speculations
 >that support what you want to believe?

Why bother with actual evidence when you can draw so many
conclusions from a complete *absence*  of evidence. Why on earth
*should* Ribiero have come foreward?

 >>>Why is it that _nobody_ involved in the investigation believed
 >>>the incident to be a hoax, and that the hoax allegations all
 >>>come from persons removed by years and thousands of miles from
 >>>the event?

Well, I could think of a few answers, but no doubt they would
all be dismissed as unfalsifiable hypotheses.

 >>Maybe they just thought that after the President of the Republic
 >>got interested in this, it might be best for their careers if
 >>they just kept their heads below the parapet and remained
 >>silent. Sheer speculation, I know, but you asked for
 >>suggestions.

 >Ah, yes, the ol' unfalsifiable hypothesis. Why bother with
 >actual evidence... etc., etc.

As I say, you're the one who asked for suggestions.

 >>>>>Farias de Azeved

 >>>>"The photographer Farias de Azevedo, who was more distant,
 >>>>didn't come in time to get photos." From statement by Barauna.
 >>>>No further mention of this person.

 >>>So?

 >>So not a first hand witness. The 'evidence' that he was a
 >>witness is based solely on Barauna's statement.

 >Perhaps if you could do something truly novel, such as produce
 >evidence that Barauna was a liar whose testimony can be rejected
 >out of hand - your implication that he was lying about this
 >would mean something. Lacking that, it means nothing, except
 >that you are desperate not to credit what every investigating
 >authority said about the Trindade sighting and photos: that
 >there were many witnesses, in two groups, and that they
 >testified that the photographs captured exactly what they saw.

Sorry, Jerry, but I refuse to stand in awe of "every
investigating authority". All these "investigating authorities"
are simply quoting a re-quoting a handful of original statements
made by three people."

 >Until you can provide us anything more than vaporous speculation
 >about why the Brazilian Navy should lie about this - and about
 >why not a single retraction or confession has come to light
 >despite massive publicity and continuing attention for decades -
 >further discussion serves no purpose, except to indulge you
 >as you grasp at straws.

As I've said before, it's always lies, lies lies, with Jerry;
never any room for ambiguity, genuine mistakes or inefficiency.
In Jerry's world the Brazilian Navy is manned by recording
robots who either do everything perfectly by the book, or are
liars. I think possibly this tells us more about Jerry than it
does about the Brazilian Navy.

I presume from your last sentence above that you have desided to
call this discussion to a halt. I am happy with that, I would
just encourage the "patient and gentle listfolk" to read this
thread and the full reports which are available on the Internet,
and come to their own conclusions.

The final point is that, despite claims that Trindade was one of
the best witnessed UFO cases in history, careful study of the
evidence can only find direct statements from two people, other
than the photographer, that they were on deck when the
photographs were taken and saw the object photgraphed. Slight
evidence indeed for "one of the most impressive photgraphic
cases in UFO history!

And now to bed ...


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:10:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:48:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:17:40 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >
 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Jim,

 >>>Which reminds me..... Has anybody out there actually heard/seen
 >>>any of our skeptics and skeptibunkers ever, ever, ever dispute
 >>>the testimony of people who say saw a meteor? I mean after all
 >>>unless the meteor hits the ground, there is no "physical
 >>>evidence" that could be sampled, tested, in a lab i.e. like the
 >>>DNA evidence so other then the witness testimony, there is no
 >>>other evidence that can verfy. If the answer has something to do
 >>>with multiple people seeing the same thing, then if multiple
 >>>people report say a daylight disk is that acceptable?

 >>Come on, people, let's get real. We know what we're up against.
 >>Meteors are proven to exist, UFOs (as nuts-and bolts craft) are
 >>not.

 >The existence of meteors was once fought as fiercely as the
 >existence of UFOs, employing some of the same tortured
 >explanations and rationalizations. If anything, the meteor
 >analogy works on the side of UFO proponents.

That was in the 18th century, Jerry. Still a good past example,
to be sure, but obviously today there is a bit less reason to
question the reliability of a witness reporting a meteor than
one reporting that the "meteor" maneuvered in the sky.

I've reported bolides before to SEAN in Washington. They take
down what I say and tell me thanks. If I were to say "and you'll
never guess what it did next, it stopped dead and then went back
the way it came," do you think they'd be within their rights to
ask me a few more questions?

 >Moreover, the argument at its core, and at this stage of its
 >evolution, is _not_ whether UFOs exist as "nuts-and-bolts
 >craft," but simply whether there are highly anomalous aerial
 >phenomena credibly reported. You're confusing UFO study with
 >UFO theory.

Whose argument is that? Certainly not mine. I've long ago come
to the conclusion that the observational phenomenon exists as
presented. I'm simply saying that this fact does not absolve us
from attempting to filter out the noise - currently pegging the
VU meter at around 90% - and one of the ways to do this is to
submit the eyewitness accounts to rigorous scrutiny. Much as
some here would argue otherwise, I _have_ had witnesses come to
me with breathless descriptions of what turned out to be bright
stars. We will never even get to the "nuts-and-bolts" argument
if we are not vigilant in this phase of research. I think
skeptics are perfectly within their rights to question
eyewitness reliability, as long as they are mindful that there
exists a threshold beyond which a report can no longer be a
misperception, and instead wanders into the realm of either
"hoax" or "TRUFO".

 >>Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >>claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >>into the hallowed halls of science.

 >This is a cliche, and it is ripe for debunking. In fact, it is
 >going to be debunked by the very man who coined the phrase (not,
 >by the way, Carl Sagan, usually credited with it): sociologist
 >of science Marcello Truzzi. Look for his paper on the subject.
 >Suffice it to say, he regrets ever conjuring up this simplistic
 >formulation.

I disagree, I think its an apt requirement; I also just happen
to think that we've long ago MET the requirement of
extraordinary proof that something worth investigating is
happening in the skies. (By the way, my favorite Truzzi quote
is, "The existence of wigs does not preclude the existence of
real hair.")

 >You can see the problem when you start with two loaded phrases,
 >blithely undefined: "extraordinary claims" and "extraordinary
 >proof." Another problem is that the issues science faces in
 >confronting the anomalous cannot be rendered into one simple,
 >bumper-sticker slogan.

On this we can agree, and especially the "blithely undefined"
part; witness my earlier reference to Robert Schaeffer's
"requirements" for an interesting case, which we've met, yet
with which another skeptic here takes issue.


==JJS==

Science is facts. Just as houses are made of stones, so science
is made of facts. But a pile of stones is not a house and a
collection of facts is not necessarily science.
                                               -- Henri Poincare






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   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:10:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:52:56 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Speiser


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:11:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700
 >>Subject: Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>NIDS has just issued a white paper outlining their theory that
 >>the flying boomerangs may be military in origin.

 >>Over the years I've uncovered some tantalizing hints in this
 >>direction myself, so I'd be very interested if anyone here has
 >>any comments on the NIDS paper.

 >>I'm no aerospace engineer, but the technical stuff in this
 >>report seems to be just a bit on the rough side.

 >>Can anyone here with the requisite expertise review this article
 >>with an eye toward confirming or denying some of the science
 >>therein?

 >>http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html


 >Having just read the summary of the FT/LTA as according to NIDS
 >I immediately come up with several questions. 1] Why the
 >secrecy? 2] Why risk this secrecy by flying them in domestic
 >airspace? 3] Who was/is building them? 4] What were/are these
 >special craft being saved for? Germany has been experimenting
 >with LTA craft for 100 years and is quite open about it and even
 >now are preparing these prototypes for transporting large cargo
 >containers. If we are to believe that the LTAs are the answer to
 >the UFO phenomena why has the US government [for example] spent
 >so many billions of dollars on rocketry for space and other
 >methods of propulsion for its military purposes?

Hi Don,

Why ask why? :-) Seriously, I believe any question regarding
aliens that starts with "why" is an exercise in futility, and
only slightly less so when asked in the military context. The
only answer can be "For reasons presently unknown to us." Our
inability to go further than that in no way obviates the theory.

 >but without answers to the first 4 questions-this
 >is not the answer to the UFO question.

Can you say that definitively?

What _can_ obviate the theory right here and now - at least this
incarnation of it - would be a review of the aeronautical
science presented in the article by someone with the requisite
expertise. Is it theoretically sound? Is there anything in it
that rings false? How much of it is based on "fringe" science,
such as TT Brown? Not disparaging Brown, mind you, but it's
good to know how much of this gentleman's thesis is grounded in
accepted science.

 >If these craft are being built in the United States, who is
 >behind them and how inneffectual is the USAF in not being able
 >to maintain their authority over/in their own airspace.

 >This piece raises many more questions than it answers.

It's just a theory. Can we afford to discard it because of
"questions"?


==JJS==

The "silly" question is the first intimation of some totally new
development.
                                        -- Alfred North Whitehead








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   Jul > Jul 27

                    F-16 Scramble - Expanded WTOP Article

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:49:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:07:35 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - Expanded WTOP Article


Waldorf Puts the U in UFO
WTOP Radio
July 26, 2002

Source: WTOP Radio

http://www.wtopnews.com/news/newsdetail.cfm?newsID=584517

What was that bright light in Maryland's sky???

WTOP has learned that residents near Andrews Air Force base were
shaken from their beds early Friday morning by some strange
activity in the air.

"Incredible. Absolutely incredible" is what Renny Rogers of
Waldorf calls it. Just before two in the morning, Rogers says he
saw a large blue ball of light streaking across the sky. But it
was the military jets that really startled him.

"(The jets) were right on its tail. As the thing would move, a
jet was right behind it," Rogers recalls.

He is not the only one who saw it. Several people called WTOP
Radio reporting seeing a bright blue or orange ball moving very
fast, being chased by jets.

Rogers says there was no smoke coming from the object, no
flashing lights, and says it was smooth, and eerily silent.

The Air National Guard confirms they scrambled the 113th
squadron. Spokesman Sheldon Smith says they are investigating
and in contact with NORAD.








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             Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 01:15:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:15:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa - Hatch


 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:05:56 -0400
 >Subject: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa

 >Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry:

 >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992589

= = = =

Hello Wendy:

What an interesting experiment!

As a nuts and bolts sort of guy (wires and resistors is more
like it) I usually avoid discussions of psychology, a field
where anybody and everybody thinks they know something.

Here however, is an experiment they can apply to believers and
skeptics, with quantitative statistical results! I wonder if
something similar might result from a study of say religionists
versus disbelievers.

I noted that L-dopamine is related, perhaps closely, with the
"reward-centers' of the brain. I don't want to get into a swamp
here, I'm much more at home with Ohm's law, but it occurs to me
that certain mind-sets seem compelled to believe in the
fantastic, with or without evidence, to the point that I suspect
some sort of addiction to horse-crap.

In the wilder cases, it doesn't seem to matter which brand of
horse-crap. If one brand vanishes, they simply switch to
another... kinda like cigarettes.

Then there is the matter of 'faces that aren't there'. That
never afflicted me, and I'm no Cydonia fan.

Instead, I hear musical bands playing whenever certain types of
fans blow white noise .. one kept playing some swing-era big
band riff, really annoying, and completely subjective!

Finally, I would suggest that the same sort of study be
conducted with beer instead of L-dopamine. My suspicion, totally
ungrounded [burp!] is that it would have either a neutral
effect, or one somewhat opposite to that of L-dopamine. I
hypothesize, without evidence but from long long experience,
that beer actually _decreases_ the tendency to perceive things
that are not there.

Go to any beer joint and bring up the topic of UFOs for example.
You will have a kinder reception in a county jail.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:11:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:59:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:36:43 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:29 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Hi Bob

 >>Thanks for this additional info and references.

 >Hey, it's ok, you're welcome :-)

 >>I guess you could be thinking of her early "red (I think it was)
 >>barn" study, where a suggestion by a questioner apparently
 >>became part of the memory of witnesses to an accident film?

 >This is a good example, but there's a whole corpus of research
 >of this type going back to at least the early 1970s.

 >>It might be banal but is exactly the kind of "background" info
 >>which turns many sightings of Venus into hovering alien space-
 >> ships with little men waving from the windows.  The source of
 >>most of what passes for the exciting parts of IFO reports seems
 >>to be the culture.

 >Ok, so presumably you're postulating some sort of error-
 >generating process which takes a sighting of Venus as a stimulus
 >and generates from this a witness report of a hovering alien
 >space-ship with little men waving from the windows.

 >What would be the nature of this error-generating process, and
 >how would it relate to the general context of psychological
 >function?

 >What evidence exists to support the existence of such a process,
 >and how do you derive the existence of this process from the
 >empirical research published by Loftus and others?

Good Morning Cathy, Bob, List, All -

If I might jump in here to answer a couple of questions and
provide a little personal research.

I believe the nature of the error-generating process would be
called confabulation.

I have written an article, published in IUR (Spring 2001, Vol
26, No. 1) entitled "UFOs on Memory Lane" (a title I didn't
pick) which concerns a UFO sighting complete with occupants made
in 1975. Briefly we had two witnesses, together, who reported a
series of UFO sightings one night. We have here the initial
reports, taken on the evening of the sighting and we have a
number of other reports, from the same two people taken over a
period of two to four weeks.

The solution to the sighting, I believe, is aircraft landing
lights. They were looking toward the airport and they talked of
the UFOs suddenly blossoming into brightness (the pilots turned
on the lights) and then the craft descending until they
disappeared behind the distant trees.

Originally both talked of points of light, sometimes with a
flashing red light associated with them. The original sketches,
made on the night of the sighting showed these points of light
and provided the perceived path of descent. One of the
witnesses, interviewed later, suggested a domed disk that
included a band of red and white lights around it and a large
red light under it. Clearly that witness was now describing
something more than the point of light originally reported.

Then, later, that same witness produced a third sketch, this
time it showed not only the disk shape, but two shapes at one
end that represented the pilots or crew. We had moved from a
point of light to an occupant sighting.

The other witness couldn't understand the change in what had
been seen. That witness said that there had only been the points
of light and no sign of a large craft or creatures from it.

So, one witness's testimony remained unchanged and consistent
and the other witness claimed to have seen a huge craft and
creatures, though originally all the testimony was consistent.
The point here is that through confabulation, the witness
created the craft and the aliens because that was what the mind
demanded. It was a process that took several weeks, but in the
end, anyone interviewing the witness would have gotten the story
of the disk and the creatures.

Anyway, I believe this case fits the qualifications suggested in
the post.

KRandle








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                         F-16 Scramble - CNN Report

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:26:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:42:17 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - CNN Report


This article was posted about 3-hours after the FOX news report
and strangely has far less information, does not reference the
WTOP callers or the reported description of the object, said to
be a a smooth 'blue' light (described by other witnesses as
orange). Interestingly, CNN also does not reference that ground
observers reported jets in immediate pursuit of the objects.
What makes this dismal report only remotely interesting is the
specific term "aircraft" used by the NORAD spokesperson,
suggesting that this would not have been thought of as space
debris of any kind by the agency. I still wonder why they are
coming out with this? - KY

--

Air Force jets scrambled near D.C.
July 26, 2002 Posted: 10:26 PM EDT (0226 GMT)

 From Mike Mount
CNN Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Two Air Force F-16s were scrambled early
Friday morning to investigate a low-flying, unknown aircraft
close to the restricted flight zone over Washington, according
to an official at the North American Aerospace Defense Command.

A Pentagon official said that an aircraft appeared on radar in
the 15-mile restricted flight zone around Washington.

"The pair of jets were scrambled from Andrews Air Force Base in
Maryland at about 1 a.m. Friday to investigate reports of an
aircraft in the Washington, D.C. Temporary Flight Restriction
Area," said Maj. Barry Venable, a spokesman for NORAD.

Venable would not say how long the F-16s were in the air.







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   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:02:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:45:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:39:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>not. Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >>claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >>into the hallowed halls of science. I can live with the fact

 >The so-called "hallowed halls of science" are full of smoke and
 >mirrors of extraordinary claims. Take the extraordinary claim
 >that the age of the universe is no longer 4.6 billion years-old
 >(the so-called 'scientifically acceptable theory' since the 30s)
 >but is now 12-16 billion years-old. What so-called
 >'extraordinary proof' did they come up with for that? It was
 >solely based upon the 'interpretation' of the Hubble space
 >telescope. As I recall it was based upon finding matter, which
 >according to the interpretation was older then 4 billion years.

Do you have a different interpretation? Science is admittedly in
the guessing game, and hopefully it puts forth its _best_
guesses. And, Jerry's point is well-taken here, that "extra-
  ordinary is in the mind of the beholder." I don't think 14
billion years is an extraordinary claim at all. In fact, I'd be
willing to bet that it will be revised again in our lifetimes,
perhaps to as much as 20 billion years. Again, it will
re-present their best guess at the time.

 >I would call all the alleged and claimed scientific tales and
 >stories about global ice age, global warming as being
 >extraordinary.

Again, guesses about possibilities, not claims of definite
proof... And there's definitely sometihng going on with the
weather lately.

 >The thing to remember is that main-stream science will readily
 >accept an extraordinary photo interpretation that claims the
 >universe is 14 billion years-old without physical evidence. If
 >you present the same scientists with a photo of a UFO, they will
 >start telling us how, suddenly, they need actual proof that they
 >can take into the lab and analyize and prove that it is in fact
 >a space-ship.

Short of an actual landing and an overt contact, would there be
any other way to do it? Do you think we now posess proof,
scientific or otherwise, that these are ET spacecraft? We think
they might be, and are excited at the prospect, but our
excitement does not constitute proof of anything (except maybe
not enough fiber in our diet).

 >>that eyewitness testimony is not extraordinary proof of UFOs
 >>being nuts-and-bolts craft. Even skeptibunkers will grudgingly
 >>admit that there are some fascinating reports out there that
 >>defy facile explanation (uh, you DO, don't you); where we differ

 >In truth they won't.

 >To them 'unidentified' does not mean space-ship, it means that
 >they can't readily and easily explain it now, but hopefully, at
 >some time in the future some/any explaination other than
 >space-ship will come forward.

Well, I guess I'm right in the middle on this. "Unidentified"
does not mean space-ship to me, either, but I hope some time in
the future it turns out that way.

==JJS==

Dreaming permits each and every one of us to be quietly and
safely insane every night of our lives.
                                               -- Charles Fisher







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:36:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:46:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Hi Bob

 >Thanks for this additional info and references.

Hey, it's ok, you're welcome :-)

 >I guess you could be thinking of her early "red (I think it was)
 >barn" study, where a suggestion by a questioner apparently
 >became part of the memory of witnesses to an accident film?

This is a good example, but there's a whole corpus of research
of this type going back to at least the early 1970s.

 >It might be banal but is exactly the kind of "background" info
 >which turns many sightings of Venus into hovering alien space-
 > ships with little men waving from the windows.  The source of
 >most of what passes for the exciting parts of IFO reports seems
 >to be the culture.

Ok, so presumably you're postulating some sort of error-
generating process which takes a sighting of Venus as a stimulus
and generates from this a witness report of a hovering alien
space-ship with little men waving from the windows.

What would be the nature of this error-generating process, and
how would it relate to the general context of psychological
function?

What evidence exists to support the existence of such a process,
and how do you derive the existence of this process from the
empirical research published by Loftus and others?

 >I don't quite catch on, here. How does accumulated noise,
 >presumeably from accumulated studies, end up creating a positive
 >result?

It's a filtering effect.

Results in experimental psychology are evaluated using
inferential statistics.  A result is considered significant if
it is sufficiently large, that it would be consistent with a
null hypothesis of "no effect" only at or below a given level of
probability (referred to as the significance level).

However, since one cannot affirm a null hypothesis under these
circumstances, a negative result (or failure to reach
significance) is not considered meaningful and so cannot
normally be published.

Inevitably then, "significance" can accumulate in publication
through noise alone, since no-one knows how many failed attempts
at replication remain unpublished.

Worse than this, though, is the problem that if positive results
occur due to experimental error or demand bias, the
corresponding experiments in which these errors or biases are
corrected, and which consequently don't produce "positive"
results, are unpublishable.  This makes it especially difficult
to eliminate experimental bias or demand characteristics from
psychological research.

 >Clear skies,

Happy skywatching

Cathy







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   Jul > Jul 27

                  Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:44:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:48:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:42:05 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >>In addition, and most importantly, they were
 >>equipped with SCR-268 Radar searchlight directors which found
 >>and tracked aerial targets by means of a radio echo.....
 >>It supplied a continuous flow of data
 >>which located aircraft positively.

 >It should be noted that the early radar systems, of which 268's
 >were the first, were very innacurate and relied upon multiple
 >confirmations for targeting.
 >
 >American AAA radar was first deployed in the North African and
 >Italian campaigns, primarily for target tracking in conjunction
 >with searchlights. These gun-laying sets were very primitive
 >by today's standards. There was one cathode ray tube to show the
 >distance a target was from the set, and a second to help
 >pinpoint the direction. Both were inaccurate; it really took the
 >plots from two or more sets to estimate where the target was,
 >and guess the number of planes, and their altitude.

 >>Since the first successful SCR-268 was built by the Signal Corps
 >>in 1937, and given the top priority the airplane manufacturing
 >>plants in the L.A. area garnered, (after the attack on Pearl
 >>Harbor) I think it's safe to assume that the SCR-268 directed
 >>searchlights were in place during the early morning hours of
 >>February 25, 1942,

 >The first Radar guided searchlight sets were deployed in the
 >Italian and North African campaigns, not on the American
 >continent as mentioned in the above quote taken from:

 >http://www.skylighters.org/introduction/index.html#sl.

 >The west coast defenses were suffering a shortage of manpower
 >and equipment of which much equipment was outdated. This is why
 >the military was so concerned about the west coast and was
 >scrambling to send more troops and defenses much of which was
 >temporary in nature. There was still in use the sound and
 >binocular detection units at this time though it is not clear
 >just what was in use in Los Angeles although we do know what was
 >available was sparse and old.

 >Also, just as important here is the fact that aside from the
 >initial contacts radar made over the ocean, no further contacts
 >were reported after the first was lost before it made landfall.
 >Nothing was showing on radar as the military accounts show. And
 >no planes were spotted and confirmed. Therefore, the
 >searchlights systems most likely were operating on a visual
 >targeting system. You will note the references in the reports
 >mention the spotlights SEARCHING the sky. Not illuminatiing
 >targets. Nowhere, not even under the photo captions, does it
 >mention any object being found by the lights or illuminated by
 >them. And it is clearly stated that radar lost the target over
 >the ocean.

Hi Paul & All,

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think it's a safe bet
that the SCR-238 was used in the Battle of LA because of the
military assets in the area, moreover there had been UFO's
reported on the West coast since the 9th of December, so it
would seem appropriate for the advanced radar units of the
time to be in place. However, as I mentioned, I am awaiting
confirmation for this assumption. Also as

I mentioned radar was a new and top secret technology, so not
mentioning it in conjunction with the searchlights, in the
newspapers, seems logical to me. In addition the caption under
the infamous photo reads:

"SEEKING OUT OBJECT - Scores of searchlights built a wigwam of
light beams over Los Angeles early yesterday morning during the
alarm. This picture was taken during blackout shows nine beams
converging on an object in sky in Culver City area. The blobs of
light which show at apex of beam angles were made by anti-
aircraft shells."

 >In an earlier posting Mr. Warren also states that it was a clear
 >night and no smoke was visible. This is also contradicted by the
 >military chronicles. It clearly states smoke and exploding
 >ordinance made visual confirmnations extremely difficult.


Pardon me Paul, but what I stated separately, was that it was
reported that
it was a clear night, and then in reference to the picture I said I
couldn't
make-out any smoke, as the entire picture that I held in my hand
appeared
foggy or cloudy if you will. I also said that obviously there
had to be
smoke from the shells, although I couldn't discern any.

 >All of this is likely irrelevant besides. The LA photo
 >apparently is not altered and I humbly accept I was mistaken due
 >to the second photo's differences suggesting it may have been.
 >However, after viewing many similar photo's it appears the LA
 >pic is not unique. The appearance of the LA pic is similar to
 >others of the period in which nothing is known to have been in
 >the sky. I hope to have a compilation and comparison done soon
 >demonstrating this.

Assuming that the pics you are talking about are those that can be
found at the skylighters site:

http://www.strandlab.com/4thaac/index.html

I took the time to analyze some of those with the photographic
software I have, and none came back with the hard edges of the
elliptical shaped object in the LA pic. In other words the photo
of the searchlights illuminating the the 'cloud ceiling' which
gave the appearance of a disc shaped object were clearly
discernible as just that-clouds!

Again to reiterate, the LA Times reported the object(s), as
evidenced by the above mentioned caption which appeared below
the picture, as well as publishing many eye witness accounts.
The point being is the picture is only part of the pie.


Regards,

Frank Warren







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                      Washington Post On F-16s Pursuit

From: Judith Simons <jsimons@bcpl.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:47:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:48:57 -0400
Subject: Washington Post On F-16s Pursuit


Source: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8131-2002Jul26.html


F-16s Pursue Unknown Craft Over Region
By Steve Vogel

For Renny Rogers, it was strange enough that military jets were
flying low over his home in Waldorf in the middle of the night.
It was what he thinks he saw when he headed outside to look
early yesterday that floored him.

"It was this object, this light-blue object, traveling at a
phenomenal rate of speed," Rogers said. "This Air Force jet was
right behind it, chasing it, but the object was just leaving him
in the dust. I told my neighbor, 'I think those jets are chasing
a UFO.' "

Military officials confirm that two F-16 jets from Andrews Air
Force Base were scrambled early yesterday after radar detected
an unknown aircraft in area airspace. But they scoff at the idea
that the jets were chasing a strange and speedy, blue
unidentified flying object.

"We had a track of interest, so we sent up some aircraft," said
Maj. Douglas Martin, a spokesman for the North American
Aerospace Defense Command in Colorado, which has responsibility
for defending U.S. airspace. "Everything was fine in the sky, so
they returned home."

At the same time, military officials say they do not know just
what the jets were chasing, because whatever it was disappeared.
"There are any number of scenarios, but we don't know what it
was," said Maj. Barry Venable, another spokesman for NORAD.

Radar detected a low, slow-flying aircraft about 1 a.m.
yesterday, according to a military official. Controllers were
unable to establish radio communication with the unidentified
aircraft, and NORAD was notified. When the F-16s carrying air-
to-air missiles were launched from Andrews, the unidentified
aircraft's track faded from the radar, the military official
said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Pilots with the D.C. Air National Guard's 113th Air Wing, which
flew the F-16s from Andrews, reported nothing out of the
ordinary, NORAD officials said.

"It was a routine launch," said Lt. Col. Steve Chase, a senior
officer with the wing, which keeps pilots and armed jets on 24-
hour alert at Andrews to respond to incidents as part of an air
defense system protecting Washington after the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks.

Rogers remains convinced that what he saw was not routine. "It
looked like a shooting star with no trailing mist," he said.
"I've never seen anything like it."


--
Sign the Petition for UFO Information Disclosure
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition






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   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:17:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:46:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:36:08 -0500

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:50 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>>>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >>>I am shocked. I have never seen _anything_ by you that made the
 >>>in the matter of IFOs, where Condon's findings underscore its
 >>>startling accuracy.

 >>Obviously eyewitness testimony can be reliable, and is reliable
 >>about many things. It can also be unreliable. Does anybody doubt
 >>this? Only you, who absurdly claimed that others have claimed
 >>that it is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >Now we learn, belatedly, that to you eyewitness testimony can
 >be reliable, and not only that, "obviously" so. The tune has
 >changed, so maybe we're making progress.

Jerry:

If you say so.

 >You have ignored my question, so let me phrase it again:
 >Can you cite an unexplained, high-strangeness UFO case in
 >which you judge the witnesses to be credible and their
 >testimony worth heeding as a reliable indication of what they
 >actually saw?

You have deliberately ignored my challenge: has anyone on this
List, other than youself, ever - ever - claimed that witness
testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

Can you offer us a citation?

It seems that you are up to your usual trick, creating a bizarre
supposed quote by the skeptibunkers, or whatever you want to
call them, or chopping off the end of a sentance, or whatever,
to remove the context, because if considered on its face, the
usual reasoning of the skeptics is not far off the mark.

But, I have a theory about this whole thing. Another idea, which
to be fair, may very well be the answer to this refusal of yours
to check your citation.

That is that you may actually believe that I, or somebody else
on the List has made such a nonsensical claim. You may even have
created this memory of yours out of your own pre-conceptions.
Just like the overwhelming percentage of witnesses of the tens
of thousands of Identified Flying Objects. Just like an unkown,
but probably equally large, percentage of witnesses of TRUFOS.

Like our little five-year old out West, and like every other
human who has ever lived, Jerry, you may actually be in error,
too, about this memory.

Imagine that.

Clear skies,
Bob Young

I'll tell Santy Claus on you
  -- Shemp Howard (Sam Horwitz)









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                         F-16 Scramble - CNN Report

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:26:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:12:08 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - CNN Report


This article was posted about 3-hours after the FOX news report
and strangely has far less information, does not reference the
WTOP callers or the reported description of the object, said to
be a a smooth 'blue' light (described by other witnesses as
orange). Interestingly, CNN also does not reference that ground
observers reported jets in immediate pursuit of the objects.
What makes this dismal report only remotely interesting is the
specific term "aircraft" used by the NORAD spokesperson,
suggesting that this would not have been thought of as space
debris of any kind by the agency. I still wonder why they are
coming out with this? - KY

--

Air Force jets scrambled near D.C.
July 26, 2002 Posted: 10:26 PM EDT (0226 GMT)

 From Mike Mount
CNN Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Two Air Force F-16s were scrambled early
Friday morning to investigate a low-flying, unknown aircraft
close to the restricted flight zone over Washington, according
to an official at the North American Aerospace Defense Command.

A Pentagon official said that an aircraft appeared on radar in
the 15-mile restricted flight zone around Washington.

"The pair of jets were scrambled from Andrews Air Force Base in
Maryland at about 1 a.m. Friday to investigate reports of an
aircraft in the Washington, D.C. Temporary Flight Restriction
Area," said Maj. Barry Venable, a spokesman for NORAD.

Venable would not say how long the F-16s were in the air.








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:36:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:16:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

Hi Bob

 >Thanks for this additional info and references.

Hey, it's ok, you're welcome :-)

 >I guess you could be thinking of her early "red (I think it was)
 >barn" study, where a suggestion by a questioner apparently
 >became part of the memory of witnesses to an accident film?

This is a good example, but there's a whole corpus of research
of this type going back to at least the early 1970s.

 >It might be banal but is exactly the kind of "background" info
 >which turns many sightings of Venus into hovering alien space-
 > ships with little men waving from the windows.  The source of
 >most of what passes for the exciting parts of IFO reports seems
 >to be the culture.

Ok, so presumably you're postulating some sort of error-
generating process which takes a sighting of Venus as a stimulus
and generates from this a witness report of a hovering alien
space-ship with little men waving from the windows.

What would be the nature of this error-generating process, and
how would it relate to the general context of psychological
function?

What evidence exists to support the existence of such a process,
and how do you derive the existence of this process from the
empirical research published by Loftus and others?

 >I don't quite catch on, here. How does accumulated noise,
 >presumeably from accumulated studies, end up creating a positive
 >result?

It's a filtering effect.

Results in experimental psychology are evaluated using
inferential statistics.  A result is considered significant if
it is sufficiently large, that it would be consistent with a
null hypothesis of "no effect" only at or below a given level of
probability (referred to as the significance level).

However, since one cannot affirm a null hypothesis under these
circumstances, a negative result (or failure to reach
significance) is not considered meaningful and so cannot
normally be published.

Inevitably then, "significance" can accumulate in publication
through noise alone, since no-one knows how many failed attempts
at replication remain unpublished.

Worse than this, though, is the problem that if positive results
occur due to experimental error or demand bias, the
corresponding experiments in which these errors or biases are
corrected, and which consequently don't produce "positive"
results, are unpublishable.  This makes it especially difficult
to eliminate experimental bias or demand characteristics from
psychological research.

 >Clear skies,

Happy skywatching

Cathy








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                  Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:44:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:03:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment


 >From: Paul Novak <nib68@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:42:05 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >>In addition, and most importantly, they were
 >>equipped with SCR-268 Radar searchlight directors which found
 >>and tracked aerial targets by means of a radio echo.....
 >>It supplied a continuous flow of data
 >>which located aircraft positively.

 >It should be noted that the early radar systems, of which 268's
 >were the first, were very innacurate and relied upon multiple
 >confirmations for targeting.
 >
 >American AAA radar was first deployed in the North African and
 >Italian campaigns, primarily for target tracking in conjunction
 >with searchlights. These gun-laying sets were very primitive
 >by today's standards. There was one cathode ray tube to show the
 >distance a target was from the set, and a second to help
 >pinpoint the direction. Both were inaccurate; it really took the
 >plots from two or more sets to estimate where the target was,
 >and guess the number of planes, and their altitude.

 >>Since the first successful SCR-268 was built by the Signal Corps
 >>in 1937, and given the top priority the airplane manufacturing
 >>plants in the L.A. area garnered, (after the attack on Pearl
 >>Harbor) I think it's safe to assume that the SCR-268 directed
 >>searchlights were in place during the early morning hours of
 >>February 25, 1942,

 >The first Radar guided searchlight sets were deployed in the
 >Italian and North African campaigns, not on the American
 >continent as mentioned in the above quote taken from:

 >http://www.skylighters.org/introduction/index.html#sl.

 >The west coast defenses were suffering a shortage of manpower
 >and equipment of which much equipment was outdated. This is why
 >the military was so concerned about the west coast and was
 >scrambling to send more troops and defenses much of which was
 >temporary in nature. There was still in use the sound and
 >binocular detection units at this time though it is not clear
 >just what was in use in Los Angeles although we do know what was
 >available was sparse and old.

 >Also, just as important here is the fact that aside from the
 >initial contacts radar made over the ocean, no further contacts
 >were reported after the first was lost before it made landfall.
 >Nothing was showing on radar as the military accounts show. And
 >no planes were spotted and confirmed. Therefore, the
 >searchlights systems most likely were operating on a visual
 >targeting system. You will note the references in the reports
 >mention the spotlights SEARCHING the sky. Not illuminatiing
 >targets. Nowhere, not even under the photo captions, does it
 >mention any object being found by the lights or illuminated by
 >them. And it is clearly stated that radar lost the target over
 >the ocean.

Hi Paul & All,

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think it's a safe bet
that the SCR-238 was used in the Battle of LA because of the
military assets in the area, moreover there had been UFO's
reported on the West coast since the 9th of December, so it
would seem appropriate for the advanced radar units of the
time to be in place. However, as I mentioned, I am awaiting
confirmation for this assumption. Also as

I mentioned radar was a new and top secret technology, so not
mentioning it in conjunction with the searchlights, in the
newspapers, seems logical to me. In addition the caption under
the infamous photo reads:

"SEEKING OUT OBJECT - Scores of searchlights built a wigwam of
light beams over Los Angeles early yesterday morning during the
alarm. This picture was taken during blackout shows nine beams
converging on an object in sky in Culver City area. The blobs of
light which show at apex of beam angles were made by anti-
aircraft shells."

 >In an earlier posting Mr. Warren also states that it was a clear
 >night and no smoke was visible. This is also contradicted by the
 >military chronicles. It clearly states smoke and exploding
 >ordinance made visual confirmnations extremely difficult.


Pardon me Paul, but what I stated separately, was that it was
reported that
it was a clear night, and then in reference to the picture I said I
couldn't
make-out any smoke, as the entire picture that I held in my hand
appeared
foggy or cloudy if you will. I also said that obviously there
had to be
smoke from the shells, although I couldn't discern any.

 >All of this is likely irrelevant besides. The LA photo
 >apparently is not altered and I humbly accept I was mistaken due
 >to the second photo's differences suggesting it may have been.
 >However, after viewing many similar photo's it appears the LA
 >pic is not unique. The appearance of the LA pic is similar to
 >others of the period in which nothing is known to have been in
 >the sky. I hope to have a compilation and comparison done soon
 >demonstrating this.

Assuming that the pics you are talking about are those that can be
found at the skylighters site:

http://www.strandlab.com/4thaac/index.html

I took the time to analyze some of those with the photographic
software I have, and none came back with the hard edges of the
elliptical shaped object in the LA pic. In other words the photo
of the searchlights illuminating the the 'cloud ceiling' which
gave the appearance of a disc shaped object were clearly
discernible as just that-clouds!

Again to reiterate, the LA Times reported the object(s), as
evidenced by the above mentioned caption which appeared below
the picture, as well as publishing many eye witness accounts.
The point being is the picture is only part of the pie.


Regards,

Frank Warren








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:10:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:50:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:20:57 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:15 -0700

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:44:21 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:18:28 -0700
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:52:48 -0500
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Hi, Jim,

 >>On this point we agree wholeheartedly. _However_, I don't think
 >>that this is reason enough to let all, or even the best,
 >>eyewitness accounts go completely unchallenged. We do know that
 >>some descriptions have proven unreliable in the past.

 >Well, yeah, except that's not what I have been discussing. My
 >point has been that eyewitness testimony can be both mistaken
 >_and_ accurate. Except when eyewitness testimony can be used to
 >identify IFOs, debunkers act as if the latter never happens,
 >thus the fierce effort we've all witnessed to rationalize away
 >the implications of eyewitness testimony in the Samantha Runnion
 >case.

I think ya might be pushing it here a little, JC. I don't know
of any responsible skeptics who completely dismiss eyewitness
accounts. But of course, I may be begging the question, because
I partly define "responsible" as "not dismissive of eyewitness
accounts"....

:-)

==JJS==

...in the course of the last century science has become so dizzy
with its successes, that it has forgotten to ask the pertinent
questions - or refused to ask them under the pretext that they
are meaningless, and in any case not the scientists concern.
                                               -- Arthur Koestler






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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:02:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:39:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>not. Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >>claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >>into the hallowed halls of science. I can live with the fact

 >The so-called "hallowed halls of science" are full of smoke and
 >mirrors of extraordinary claims. Take the extraordinary claim
 >that the age of the universe is no longer 4.6 billion years-old
 >(the so-called 'scientifically acceptable theory' since the 30s)
 >but is now 12-16 billion years-old. What so-called
 >'extraordinary proof' did they come up with for that? It was
 >solely based upon the 'interpretation' of the Hubble space
 >telescope. As I recall it was based upon finding matter, which
 >according to the interpretation was older then 4 billion years.

Do you have a different interpretation? Science is admittedly in
the guessing game, and hopefully it puts forth its _best_
guesses. And, Jerry's point is well-taken here, that "extra-
  ordinary is in the mind of the beholder." I don't think 14
billion years is an extraordinary claim at all. In fact, I'd be
willing to bet that it will be revised again in our lifetimes,
perhaps to as much as 20 billion years. Again, it will
re-present their best guess at the time.

 >I would call all the alleged and claimed scientific tales and
 >stories about global ice age, global warming as being
 >extraordinary.

Again, guesses about possibilities, not claims of definite
proof... And there's definitely sometihng going on with the
weather lately.

 >The thing to remember is that main-stream science will readily
 >accept an extraordinary photo interpretation that claims the
 >universe is 14 billion years-old without physical evidence. If
 >you present the same scientists with a photo of a UFO, they will
 >start telling us how, suddenly, they need actual proof that they
 >can take into the lab and analyize and prove that it is in fact
 >a space-ship.

Short of an actual landing and an overt contact, would there be
any other way to do it? Do you think we now posess proof,
scientific or otherwise, that these are ET spacecraft? We think
they might be, and are excited at the prospect, but our
excitement does not constitute proof of anything (except maybe
not enough fiber in our diet).

 >>that eyewitness testimony is not extraordinary proof of UFOs
 >>being nuts-and-bolts craft. Even skeptibunkers will grudgingly
 >>admit that there are some fascinating reports out there that
 >>defy facile explanation (uh, you DO, don't you); where we differ

 >In truth they won't.

 >To them 'unidentified' does not mean space-ship, it means that
 >they can't readily and easily explain it now, but hopefully, at
 >some time in the future some/any explaination other than
 >space-ship will come forward.

Well, I guess I'm right in the middle on this. "Unidentified"
does not mean space-ship to me, either, but I hope some time in
the future it turns out that way.

==JJS==

Dreaming permits each and every one of us to be quietly and
safely insane every night of our lives.
                                               -- Charles Fisher








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                      Washington Post On F-16s Pursuit

From: Judith Simons <jsimons@bcpl.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:47:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:06:39 -0400
Subject: Washington Post On F-16s Pursuit


Source: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8131-2002Jul26.html


F-16s Pursue Unknown Craft Over Region
By Steve Vogel

For Renny Rogers, it was strange enough that military jets were
flying low over his home in Waldorf in the middle of the night.
It was what he thinks he saw when he headed outside to look
early yesterday that floored him.

"It was this object, this light-blue object, traveling at a
phenomenal rate of speed," Rogers said. "This Air Force jet was
right behind it, chasing it, but the object was just leaving him
in the dust. I told my neighbor, 'I think those jets are chasing
a UFO.' "

Military officials confirm that two F-16 jets from Andrews Air
Force Base were scrambled early yesterday after radar detected
an unknown aircraft in area airspace. But they scoff at the idea
that the jets were chasing a strange and speedy, blue
unidentified flying object.

"We had a track of interest, so we sent up some aircraft," said
Maj. Douglas Martin, a spokesman for the North American
Aerospace Defense Command in Colorado, which has responsibility
for defending U.S. airspace. "Everything was fine in the sky, so
they returned home."

At the same time, military officials say they do not know just
what the jets were chasing, because whatever it was disappeared.
"There are any number of scenarios, but we don't know what it
was," said Maj. Barry Venable, another spokesman for NORAD.

Radar detected a low, slow-flying aircraft about 1 a.m.
yesterday, according to a military official. Controllers were
unable to establish radio communication with the unidentified
aircraft, and NORAD was notified. When the F-16s carrying air-
to-air missiles were launched from Andrews, the unidentified
aircraft's track faded from the radar, the military official
said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Pilots with the D.C. Air National Guard's 113th Air Wing, which
flew the F-16s from Andrews, reported nothing out of the
ordinary, NORAD officials said.

"It was a routine launch," said Lt. Col. Steve Chase, a senior
officer with the wing, which keeps pilots and armed jets on 24-
hour alert at Andrews to respond to incidents as part of an air
defense system protecting Washington after the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks.

Rogers remains convinced that what he saw was not routine. "It
looked like a shooting star with no trailing mist," he said.
"I've never seen anything like it."


--
Sign the Petition for UFO Information Disclosure
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:21:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:35:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Okay, simple question:

 >>In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >>accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >>indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

 >Travis Walton

<sputter><sputter> Please! I was drinking milk! It's now on my
keyboard!








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                Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa -

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:03:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:37:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa -


 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:05:56 -0400
 >Subject: Still Seeing Pelicans? Try Some L-Dopa

 >Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry:

 >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992589

The main thrust of this article is in this sentence:

"Believers were much more likely than sceptics to see a word or
face when there was not one, Brugger revealed last week at a
meeting of the Federation of European Neuroscience Societies in
Paris."

But what hasn't been noted yet on the list is in the immediately
following sentence:

"However, sceptics were more likely to miss real faces and words
when they appeared on the screen."

So according to this article, while true-blue believers are
prone to concluding false positives, true-blue skeptics are
prone to false negatives. Rational decision-making requires that
both tendencies be avoided. Maybe there is some other brain
chemical shared by both types of people that creates a tendency
to jump to irrevocable conclusions without bothering to examine
the evidence before their eyes very carefully. Perhaps the
L-Dopa levels just determine which way they jump.








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:17:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:43:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:50:22 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:27:53 -0500

 >>As repeated statements make clear, there were many witnesses to
 >>the UFO's presence. Not a single statement from an investigating
 >>officer - or from a "witness" asserting that, all other
 >>testimony notwithstanding, no UFO appeared while he was in a
 >>position to view it - denies that. The witnesses, as we know
 >>from Navy documents, were in two groups, one at the front and
 >>the other at the rear of the ship.

 >Of course, if no other witness was in a position to view it, why
 >would they want to deny it?

Is this supposed to mean something?

 >It wasn't me who made Barauna strip-off while he develped the
 >film, it was Bacellar. He must presumably have though that at
 >least the possibilty of fraud would have been raised and it was
 >worth taking some elementary precautions against it.

Huh? Unless I've missed something, I have no idea where you get
the idea that Bacellar demanded that Barauna strip. Bacellar
reports that Barauna developed the photos in shirt and short,
but nowhere says that he _insisted_ Barauna do so.

The makeshift darkroom was created from the ship's lavatory, and
because it was hot and uncomfortable, Barauna stripped. In any
event, a small lavatory would have contained no special
equipment for faking a photo. Moreover, obviously, Barauna would
have had no reason to fake a photograph of an object he and two
groups of witnesses on the ship had just seen. The entire
argument is incoherent.

 >I just wonder if, having insisted that Barauna stripped off, he
 >also asked his friend who accompanied him into the darkroom to
 >do the same.

Again, this is nonsense, the sort of vacuous innuendo that
comprises the whole of your case against the remarkable Trindade
sighting and photos.


Jerry Clark








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:28:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:45:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:53:40 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:18:31 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:26:59 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

John and patient, gentle listfolk:

This is becoming a huge waste of time. This all began, if anyone
cares to remember, with John's denying that there were any other
witnesses. I have repeatedly produced statements from
investigating authorities asserting otherwise, and I have challenged
him, to no avail, to produce negative evidence that does not
rest on innuendo and speculation.

 >>Bacellar is actually a secondary witness, who came out on deck
 >>immediately after the witnesses observed the UFO's passage from
 >>the deck.

 >By "secondary witness" you mean someone who didn't actually see the
 >thing they were witnessing? Fine.

Yes, Bacellar was a secondary witness. He came on deck just after
the UFO had disappeared, in time to hear the witnesses discussing it
excitedly. Sorry that he doesn't help your case.

What part of this don't you understand? What part of my
challenge to provide actual disconfirmatory evidence - instead
of innuendo and rank speculation - against the sighting and the
photos? A case like this, if it were a hoax, would have been
child's play to expose. The fact that nearly 45 years later, you
can't do any better with a negative case than you've done --
  which is fill holes with evidence-free speculation - tells us
what we need to know. This is a remarkable UFO case, and
debunkers have yet to prove otherwise.

Until you do that - and it seems clear by now that you can't -
  this exchange is pointless. All it does is remind me why I
rejected pelicanist ufology a long time ago, and I hardly needed
to be reminded of that.

 >Here's something falsifiable: I claim that these people were
 >Barauna, Viegas and (possibly) Vieira. Jerry Clark can falsify
 >this statement by finding another single direct eyewitness
 >report from someone who was on deck and saw the UFO at the same
 >time as Barauna.

Perhaps you can do better: Provide us with a _nonspeculative_
explanation of why all the investigators conspired to lie about
the witnesses, and how they managed to keep all of those
witnesses from exposing the hoax for the next 44+ years.

Jerry Clark








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   Jul > Jul 28

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:31:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:47:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Okay, simple question:

 >>In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >>accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >>indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

 >Travis Walton

Good for you, John. I'm genuinely please to learn that you can
still surprise me.


Jerry Clark









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 28

               Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:47:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:50:29 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:10:21 -0700
 >Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:11:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700
 >>>Subject: Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>>NIDS has just issued a white paper outlining their theory that
 >>>the flying boomerangs may be military in origin.

 >>>Over the years I've uncovered some tantalizing hints in this
 >>>direction myself, so I'd be very interested if anyone here has
 >>>any comments on the NIDS paper.

 >>>I'm no aerospace engineer, but the technical stuff in this
 >>>report seems to be just a bit on the rough side.

 >>>Can anyone here with the requisite expertise review this article
 >>>with an eye toward confirming or denying some of the science
 >>>therein?

 >>>http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html

 >>Having just read the summary of the FT/LTA as according to NIDS
 >>I immediately come up with several questions. 1] Why the
 >>secrecy? 2] Why risk this secrecy by flying them in domestic
 >>airspace? 3] Who was/is building them? 4] What were/are these
 >>special craft being saved for? Germany has been experimenting
 >>with LTA craft for 100 years and is quite open about it and even
 >>now are preparing these prototypes for transporting large cargo
 >>containers. If we are to believe that the LTAs are the answer to
 >>the UFO phenomena why has the US government [for example] spent
 >>so many billions of dollars on rocketry for space and other
 >>methods of propulsion for its military purposes?

 >Hi Don,

 >Why ask why? :-) Seriously, I believe any question regarding
 >aliens that starts with "why" is an exercise in futility, and
 >only slightly less so when asked in the military context. The
 >only answer can be "For reasons presently unknown to us." Our
 >inability to go further than that in no way obviates the theory.

 >>but without answers to the first 4 questions-this
 >>is not the answer to the UFO question.

 >Can you say that definitively?

 >What _can_ obviate the theory right here and now - at least this
 >incarnation of it - would be a review of the aeronautical
 >science presented in the article by someone with the requisite
 >expertise. Is it theoretically sound? Is there anything in it
 >that rings false? How much of it is based on "fringe" science,
 >such as TT Brown? Not disparaging Brown, mind you, but it's
 >good to know how much of this gentleman's thesis is grounded in
 >accepted science.

 >>If these craft are being built in the United States, who is
 >>behind them and how inneffectual is the USAF in not being able
 >>to maintain their authority over/in their own airspace.

 >>This piece raises many more questions than it answers.

 >It's just a theory. Can we afford to discard it because of
 >"questions"?

 >==JJS==

Hi Jim,

I probably wasn't clear on what I was focusing on in my
submission. I wasn't alluding to alien content but rather the
seeming thrust of the NIDS summary that makes a case for these
FTs being some man made craft by possibly [what else could it
be] some secret level of government or society- a theory that I
personally don't give any credit to. I'm also of the opinion
that we give too much credit to the air forces of the
superpowers having the capability of producing such incredible
machines. There's no history there to support that.

My final point was, that if NIDS's summary was correct-where is
the US governments ability to ferret out these secret privately
owned machines and their manufacturers in it's own country. You
can't ignore the significance of this if you buy into the NIDS
summary. This then becomes as, or more fantastic then the ETH to
my mind.

As to the following:

 >What _can_ obviate the theory right here and now - at least this
 >incarnation of it - would be a review of the aeronautical
 >science presented in the article by someone with the requisite
 >expertise. Is it theoretically sound? Is there anything in it
 >that rings false? How much of it is based on "fringe" science,
 >such as TT Brown? Not disparaging Brown, mind you, but it's
 >good to know how much of this gentleman's thesis is grounded in
 >accepted science.

With enough money and people some of what was proposed could be
the case. but why not the gov instead of some "secret" society.
But where's the evidence of the forgoing? And why keep it secret
if it's just LTA technology. The propulsion sure but not LTA.
It's old science with a new twist and as I mentioned the Germans
are coming along quite nicely in that area. And it's no secret.
Ion wind propulsion as you've alluded to is likely something to
look at but not when there is more efficient around. If you look
at the experiments by American Gravity [??] was it, that's
impressive until you attempt to put the power supply on board.
All they are doing is proving that ion streams have some
reactive properties. It's the power supply that needs
refinement. They use the plate voltages [what 5-10,000 volts ? -
it's been awhile] for a CRT monitor and the AC coming out of a
wall plug. The transformer and power supply alone probably
weighs about 5 pounds, then you have to add a steady source of
AC or DC.

I note in the NIDS summary as well that we were talking about
the possibility of as much as 3G acceleration where some of
these UFO reports lead to computations of 200 Gs. 3Gs is no big
deal in conventional aircraft. I can pull that in a Cessna 172
or as much as 4.5 positive before the wings fold. Most modern
fighters are stressed to 22+ Gs, it's just the pilots who
aren't. They can take about 9-11 before passing out tho the body
can take the 20 Gs but not for too long. As far as grounded in
science-who sez these UFOs are not? Who's science though?

Sorry this ran on. A lot to consider here.Just barely
scratched the surface.


Best,

Don Ledger








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 28

             Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement -

From: Steve Jones <stvjns@gargoylemechanique.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:03:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:53:17 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement -


 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:05:20 -0700
 >Subject: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:34:10 -0400
 >>Subject: Military Jets Chase Blue Light Over Maryland

 ><snip>

 >>The Fund has asked that a local investigator get
 >>involved in this case, and that should be done relatively
 >>quickly.  As noted in the story, this is apparently a
 >>multiple witness event:

 >Steven;

 >Thanks for the note. I have made a few calls already. Please
 >receive the attached report and feel free to submit it to the
 >local investigator once one is identified so as to avoid
 >unnecessary steps. - KY

 >-----

 >The Charles County Sheriff's headquarters in Waldorf, Maryland
 >was contacted at 301-932-2222 and I spoke with the duty officer
 >who was not on-duty the previous evening and was also not
 >advised of any such reports. He did undertake a brief search of
 >the records but did not see reference to any reports of unusual
 >lights in his logs.

 >A Charles County office of the Maryland State Police was then
 >contacted at 301-392-1200. The dispatcher taking my call
 >informed that she had been on duty last night and received no
 >reports or complaints of unusual lights. She also had no
 >knowledge of any police officers reporting anything similar.

 >Filed,
 >July 26, 2002
 >Kenny Young

A simple clarifying rewrite of the above report:

--begin--

The Charles County Sheriff's headquarters in Waldorf, Maryland
was contacted at 301-932-2222 and I spoke with the duty officer
who claimed to not be on-duty the previous evening and also
claimed to not be advised of any such reports. He claimed to
have undertaken a brief search of the records and claimed he did
not see reference to any reports of unusual lights in his logs.

A Charles County office of the Maryland State Police was then
contacted at 301-392-1200. The dispatcher taking my call claimed
that she had been on duty last night and claimed she received no
reports or complaints of unusual lights. She also claimed to
have had no knowledge of any police officers reporting anything
similar.

-- end --

This is comparable to Disclosure Project witnesses who state
they routinely lied to investigators and others who asked them
what they saw, read, heard, knew, and/or reported to higher-ups.

 From a (truly) skeptical point of view, these responses from
Waldorf, Maryland authorities are very possibly standard cover-
up procedure. In other words, in the final analysis, not a whole
lot of real value to the UFO researcher.

--- stv jns








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   Jul > Jul 28

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:04:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:55:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:17:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case>

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:36:08 -0500

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:50 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>>>>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

C'mon, Bob. _Of course_ you believe it is reliable when it leads
to an IFO identification. Nobody disputes that. I was simply
pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of your praising Brad
Sparks's work on accuracy in IFO observation, while you
continually champion the opposite in UFO observation. Eyewitness
testimony is rejected when it describes an extraordinary anomaly
- such as a close encounter with a daylight disc - that does not
lead to IFO identification and that suggests a highly out- of-
  the-ordinary phenomenon. Stop being disingenuous. Stop trying
to evade the question.

In my response, as evidence that you reject as unreliable
eyewitness testimony in high-strangeness UFO cases, I cited your
strange belief that the Coyne crew saw a fireball, their
detailed testimony notwithstanding (they reported, among other
things, a close-up view of a cigar- or submarine-shaped metallic
structure, which was not luminous, carrying searchlights and
filling up the entire front windshield of the helicopter).
Another poster, Jean van Gemert, took note of your curious
assertion that the brilliantly glowing, hovering object Dale
Spaur and Barney Neff saw at the initation of the Portage
County, Ohio, episode* was only Venus.

Now, if you want to believe that misperception of this radical
magnitude occurs, fine. But you can't at the same time get your
nose out of joint when I point out the obvious: that you
routinely reject as inaccurate eyewitness testimony in
extraordinary, high-strangeness UFO cases.

Let me repeat: You can't have it both ways, Bob: wax indignant
when I say you reject the accuracy of eyewitness testimony when
it attests to an extraordinary phenomenon, and then go ahead and
embrace it when it attests to a prosaic phenomenon. And when you
do that, I have the right to point out that your thinking rests
on a tautology. Yours is a mental box so hermetically sealed
that we may be sure no new or novel phenomenon has a chance of
escaping from it.


Jerry Clark

*Spaur glanced over his right shoulder and observed a moving
light visible through trees at the top of a small hill along the
road. The light was coming in from the west, heading in [his and
Deputy Barney Neff's] direction..... He pointed it out to Neff.

Within moments it came over the trees, then ascended, turned
sharply to the right, passed over the road, and hovered 50 to
100 feet in the air. A perfect oval in shape, it was a brilliant
blue-white, "almost as bright as a flashbulb." It was hard to
gaze at for more than a few seconds at a time; looking at it
caused Spaur's eyes to water. It lit up the ground around the
cruiser as if it were "high noon." Whenever it moved, it tipped
forward in the direction it was going.

Suddenly... the two men broke for the cruiser [parked on a rural
road] at the same moment.... Once inside, Spaur gathered his
wits sufficiently to radio the sheriff's office....

As they watched, they "heard a whispher behind a humming noise,
which seemed to come from the object," Spaur would recall later
that day. "This thing went straight up to about 250 to 400 feet
and came back to the south side of the highway, directly
overhead." When the UFO rose, the sound got louder and the light
got brighter. It drifted 150 feet ahead, then hovered
motionlessly above the center of the road.

Spaur drove cautiously toward it. He and Neff now had a better
view of the object. It was 18 to 24 feet thick, 35 to 45 feet in
diameter, with a rounded bottom and a top barely visible in dim
silhouette. The UFO started to draw away from them, ascending to
500 feet and speeding up whenever Spaur accelerated....

On arriving at the intersection of 224 and 183, Spaur turned
sharply to the right (south) on the latter. The two highways run
parallel to the north-south for about a mile. The UFO positioned
itself over a field just off 224, and Spaur quickly got back on
the original route, in time to watch the object head southward,
cross 224, and turn east 100 yards later, illuminating the
ground all the while. Spaur remarked over the radio that the
light was so bright on the road that he hardly needed his
headlights.....

-- an excerpt from The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., pp. 719-20.
For a full account of the incident, which continued for some
time and involved a number of witnesses, I refer you to the
above. I cite the above simply to show that Venus is not what
most of us would judge this object to have been - unless, of
course, we reject as wildly inaccurate eyewitness testimony in
high-strangeness UFO cases. In that case, no matter _what_ the
witnesses assert to the contrary, they _have to be_ mistaken.

Meantime, a five-year-old girl in Orange County, California,
describes with near-perfect accuracy the kidnapper of her
friend, his accent, his car, and other details that lead police
to the suspect.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                   CCCRN News: Large Pictogram Formation -

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:23:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:57:12 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Large Pictogram Formation -


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 27, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002


LARGE PICTOGRAM FORMATION - GEORGETOWN, ONTARIO

A large new formation was reported on July 25 and first seen by
the farmer on July 22. While in the same region as the
previously reported 'randomly downed areas', this one is a much
more distinct geometric formation according to Matt Rock, Joanna
Emery and Mike Bird, local CCCRN field research assistants, who
have been examining it on the ground.

Formation is a long 'classic' type pictogram, in wheat,
consisting of a large circle which contains a standing ring. Lay
in both outer and inner flattened areas is counterclockwise. At
the centre of the  circle is a tight 'bird's nest' swirl. A
short pathway  connects to a smaller circle approximately
diameter which again has a somewhat offset standing ring inside
it. The lay in the outer flattened area is clockwise on one side
and counterclockwise on the other. In the inner flattened area,
the lay is counterclockwise, also again with a tight 'bird's
nest' swirl in the centre. A long second straight pathway coming
again from the largest circle connects to a large third plain
circle, which also has a counterclockwise lay. The inner
standing rings in two of the circles are segmented by the
attached pathways. The overall configuration is that of an 'L',
approximately 92 metres (300 +  feet) on its longest side,
making it at least the second or third largest formation on
record so far in Canada, about the same size as the larger of
the two Hagersville, Ontario pictogram formations in 1999. More
detailed measurements available soon.

Stalks gently bent over, not broken, appearing dehydrated near
root. Some single standing stalks thought formation. Some nodes
appear singed in the circle centres. Electrostatic 'crackling'
noted by two people. In places, green burdock (a course,
thistle-covered weed) is not flattened while wheat surrounding
it is although some stalks are sharply bent several inches above
the ground. Burdock leaves appear wilted or dehydrated.

Farmer has agreed to hold off harvesting the field until the
ground investigation is completed.

A preliminary diagram is posted; additional photos and field
reports to follow soon.

AERIAL PHOTOS: if anybody reading knows someone who could fly
over this one for aerial photos, please let me know, as we do
not yet have a regular pilot in the area. Thank you.

WEBSITE NOTE: a temporary copy of the Crop Circles in Canada
2002 page has been placed here:

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject/circlescanada02.html

The CCCRN web site is temporarily down, as increased traffic in
the past week has again exceeded the data transfer limit. The
site had been upgraded just a short while ago, to prevent this,
but this will be need to be done again within the next few days,
as soon as possible. Apologies to everyone for any
inconvenience.


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August / September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 28

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:28:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:58:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:10:08 -0700

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:17:40 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:05:16 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:51:57 +0100
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>>>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:42:40 EDT
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Jim,

 >>>Come on, people, let's get real. We know what we're up against.
 >>>Meteors are proven to exist, UFOs (as nuts-and bolts craft) are
 >>>not.

 >>The existence of meteors was once fought as fiercely as the
 >>existence of UFOs, employing some of the same tortured
 >>explanations and rationalizations. If anything, the meteor
 >>analogy works on the side of UFO proponents.

 >That was in the 18th century, Jerry. Still a good past example,
 >to be sure, but obviously today there is a bit less reason to
 >question the reliability of a witness reporting a meteor than
 >one reporting that the "meteor" maneuvered in the sky.

Actually, we're talking about two different things: meteors and
meteorites.  The latter are the ones that hit the ground, the
former the ones that burn out before they get there. Sightings
of meteors as such are usually purely anecdotal testimony. We
usually implicitly assume reports to be accurate, which we don't
when witnesses are reporting UFOs, for reasons that may or may
not make sense.  We know meteors exist because of meteorites,
though the idea was resisted for a long, long time. It may be
that the UFO controversy will end the same way: with  physical
and anecdotal evidence sufficiently compelling that further
denial is futile.

 >>Moreover, the argument at its core, and at this stage of its
 >>evolution, is _not_ whether UFOs exist as "nuts-and-bolts
 >>craft," but simply whether there are highly anomalous aerial
 >>phenomena credibly reported. You're confusing UFO study with
 >>UFO theory.

 >Whose argument is that? Certainly not mine.

Well, perhaps you should have phrased your view differently.
Arguing that a broad range of eyewitness testimony attests to
the presence of a potentially extraordinary aerial anomaly is
one thing. It is quite another to say it proves "nuts-and-bolts
craft."  The former is an argument one can reasonably make from
available evidence, the other an extrapolation from that
evidence that demands a whole, other, and higher order of
proof..

That's roughly the difference, say, between arguing for a UFO
phenomenon and arguing for the reality of ET visitation.  Not
that the ETH is an unreasonable provisional interpretation (I
know I find it attractive), or that it may not prove one day to
be the explanation for UFOs.  Till then, however, it cannot be
judged synonymous with the UFO phenomenon.  Our knowledge and
the evidence available to us are not sufficient to make the leap
between the two.  I think all we can say now is that a lot of
testimony, some of it pretty impressive, points to the presence
of a highly strange anomaly of unknown nature and origin.

 >>>Whether we like it or not, they are still an extraordinary
 >>>claim and demand extraordinary proof in order to be accepted
 >>>into the hallowed halls of science.

 >>This is a cliche, and it is ripe for debunking. In fact, it is
 >>going to be debunked by the very man who coined the phrase (not,
 >>by the way, Carl Sagan, usually credited with it): sociologist
 >>of science Marcello Truzzi. Look for his paper on the subject.
 >>Suffice it to say, he regrets ever conjuring up this simplistic
 >>formulation.

 >I disagree, I think its an apt requirement; I also just happen
 >to think that we've long ago MET the requirement of
 >extraordinary proof that something worth investigating is
 >happening in the skies. (By the way, my favorite Truzzi quote
 >is, "The existence of wigs does not preclude the existence of
 >real hair.")

I, for one, look forward to the disappearance of "extraordinary
claim, extraordinary evidence."  It just doesn't mean much,
though it sounds good, sort of like a bumper stricker whose
logic begins to break down, however good it reads at first
blush, when you begin to analyze it.

But your larger point is a good one, I think.  I, too, have
wondered if future scientists will look back at the post-1947
period and be perplexed that it took us so long to figure out
the reality of UFOs.  It may well be that not just debunkers but
cautious formulators -- such as me -- will end up looking pretty
silly. Who's to say?  I hope that at least some of us will be
around to see how this whole thing turns out.


Jerry Clark







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   Jul > Jul 28

                Carl Sagan On Extraterrestrial Contact, 1995

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@canada.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:01:35 -0400
Subject: Carl Sagan On Extraterrestrial Contact, 1995


An interesting pos has just been made on the Whispers UFO
Board related to an exchange of letters between Dr. C.B. Scott
Jones (who helped Laurance Rockefeller brief Clinton's Science
Advisor Jack Gibbons)and Dr. Carl Sagan. The correspondence
related to an invitation to speak at a conference Rockefeller
hosted called "When Cosmic Cultures Meet." (Both Bill and
Hillary Clinton were also invited to speak at this conference)


http://junjun.com/cgi-bin/boards/whispers/config.pl?read=35022


Subject: [SO] Carl Sagan On Extraterrestrial Contact, 1995 (When
Cosmic Cultures Meet Letter)

The following letters and information are taken from "The
Proceedings" of the international conference "When Cosmic
Cultures Meet" held May 27-29, 1995 at the Sheraton Washington
Hotel, Washington, D.C. It is being submitted by conference
attendee Sharon Pacione for general informational purposes and
to possibly stimulate enough interest to hold another conference
of this type in the near future. Personally, I think that there
are plenty of experiencers who would welcome such a conference
and I'm sure that with networking the way it is in 2002 compared
to 1995, there would be a much larger turnout than the
approximately 250 attendees at the 1995 conference. You will see
from one of the letters below, that it was originally estimates
that 900 people would attend this conference.

In the meantime, thought those reading this might be interested
in Carl Sagan's reply to his invitation to speak at this 1995
conference, When Cosmic Cultures Meet.

FIRST LETTER: from C.B.Scott Jones, head of the Human Potential
Foundation, dated December 23, 1994 to Professor Carl Sagan.

Dear Professor Sagan:

You are invited to participate as a speaker in the international
conference: When Cosmic cultures Meet.

The object of the conference is to advance a dialog that will
lead to constructive action by the world's cultures concerning
preparation for the time when there is no ambiguity that cosmic
cultures are meeting, and one of the meeting places is Earth.

The above objective also tells us what the conference is not
about. We are not meeting to discuss the evidence, however
compelling, that cosmic cultures have already met. This is a
separate important continuing debate, and one that deserves its
own venue.

However, we are looking to a time in the future when knowledge
known to governments will be made public and the issue will take
on a different aura of reality.

The conference is not a trivial undertaking. A former president
of the United States while in office expressed the idea that
contact with off planet cultures constitutes a threat to the
world, and that response should be for the world to unite
against such an eventuality.

Whether the above action was based upon knowledge or conjecture
is unknown. However, it would appear that attempts either to
make demons or angels of non-earth cultures and the consequences
of meeting with them should carefully be preceded by reflective
contemplation of ourselves and a future that includes a probable
meeting and living with cultures currently beyond our ken.

One of your fellow invited participants, Michael E. Zimmerman,
Professor of Philosophy at Tulane University, has recently
commented why many social leaders refuse to publicly discuss any
aspect of the subject of this conference. He observed that
leaders fear that they will lose social status because of the
ridicule and skepticism usually directed at people who take the
possibility of extraterrestrial intelligence, and particularly
contact with it, seriously. Additionally, some social leaders
cannot tolerate the possibility of superior non-earth
intelligence, because their identity is bound up with a
patriarchal, anthropocentric worldview that might not survive if
faced with such intelligence. And finally, still other leaders
fear potentially calamitous social disruptions that might follow
if establishment figures were to confirm that technologically
advanced non-earth intelligence beings are visiting.

Dr. Zimmerman's assessment presents a real challence. How do we
get from where we are in a fear based, patriarchal dominant
society to where it seems reasonable to some of us to go? Throw
in a dash of the possibility that regardless of both the
formidable obstacles our culture presents, and the strong desire
of some of us to do better, we may learn that our options are
rather limited because of the capabilities and propensities of
the visiting others.

Now you can understand why you have been invited as of the a
select group bringing a broad range of academic disciplines,
professional and personal attainments and courage to advance
this dialog. Your participation would be particularly important.
No other scientist to our knowledge has given this area as much
consideration as you have.

The conference will be held May 26-29, 1995, in Washington, D.C.
The site is the Sheraton Washington hotel. Attendance is
expected to be approximately 900. The foundation will cover your
travel and conference expenses and offer a modest honorarium.

We will be pleased to discuss any aspect of the conference with
you, and look forward to an early decision on your part to join
us in this path finding undertaking.

The last time we communicated was back in July and August of
1993 when you were invited to participate in a roundtable
discussion on UFOs hosted by Laurance Rockefeller in Wyoming.
One direct result of that meeting has been a low profile effort
with the White House get them seriously to address the
government classification policy concerning UFO phenomena.

The Human Potential Foundation was co-founded in December 1989
by Senator Claiborne Pell and the undersigned to look into all
aspects of the human condition.

Sincerely,
C.B. Scott Jones

Attachment: List of invited participants

SECOND LETTER: Reply from Carl Sagan to C.B. Scott
Jones

Dear Dr. Jones:

Thanks for your interesting invitation. As we have, in my view,
no even moderately suggestive evidence that humans are
encountering or have ever encountered a non-primate technical
civilization, it seems premature to plan a conference on the
subject. As far as extraterrestrial civilizations on planets of
other stars are concerned, I think there is a quite compelling
argument that any contact we make will be with a civilization
immensely more advanced than we are, in which case the
conference you propose would be tantamount to ants planning a
meeting on what to do should they ever encounter humans.

With best wishes,

Cordially,
Carl Sagan

P.S. Nevertheless, I would appreciate being kept
apprised of progress in the planning of the meeting.

CS:lkp
cc: Laurence Rockefeller

THIRD LETTER: C.B. Scott Jones reply to Carl Sagan's
letter

Dear Dr. Sagan:

Thanks for your reply to the invitation to participate in the
When Cosmic Cultures Meet Conference. I find your comments about
the conference stimulating and regret that you will not be with
us in a capacity to advance your unique and important
perspective.

You noted the compelling argument that any contact we make will
be with a civilization immensely more advanced than we are, and
in which case the conference we are holding would be tantamount
to ants planning a meeting on what to do should they ever
encounter humans.

I know nothing of ant consciousness, but assume that they
operate on instinct rather than the cognitive processes
associated with holding a planning meeting. In any event it
appears that the Army Ant(Dorylinae) and the Fire Ant
(Solenopsis geminata) have worked themselves into rather
impressive and protected niches, and when present in numbers are
prudently avoided by humans who have knowledge of their
capabilities. Who knows, maybe the galactic reputation of
Earthlings is comparable to the junk yard dog: don't mess with
him. Even if we are not the toughest son of a bitch in the
cosmos, we could take the ant strategy. After all, there are
billions and billions of us.

We will keep you apprised of the Conference progress.
If you would like to attend we would be pleased to have
you as a guest of the Foundation.

Cordially,
C.B. Scott Jones

P.S. I can imagine the excitement when Jill Tarter and the SETI
crew get a message and then realize that there is no protocol
for the next step because they had previously agreed that it was
to premature to think about such things.

cc. Laurance Rockefeller

Note: Carl Sagan did not attend the conference. Some of
the presenters that did and the subject on which they
spoke are:

Professor George S. Robinson: Homo Alterios Spatialis:
A Transgenic Odyssey

Michael Hesemann: Man's Greatest Challenge

James J. Hurtak, Ph.D.:
Extraterrestrial/Ultraterrestrial Paradigms

James W. Deardorff: Coping With The Cosmic Culture Gap

Dave Hunt: A Reason To Fear

Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D.: Effects on Human
Consciousness and Spirituality of World Announcement of
ET Presence: Paradigm Shift Par Excellence

R. Leo Sprinkle, Ph.D.: I AM Becoming A Cosmic Citizen

James Moore, Ph.D.: Are Aliens Likely to be Altruists?

William J. Baldwin, D.D.S., Ph.D.: Spirit Releasement
Therapy and the Dark E.T.s

Charles T. Tart Ph.D.: Cosmic Contact from the
Perspective of Enlightenment

Puma Q. Singona: Other Dimensional Beings in Inca
Cultures

Dennis Rohatyn, Ph.D.: The Myth of Merger

Paula Underwood, MA: Who Are the Human Beings: In
Search of Commonalty

Ruth Montgomery: Let's Have the Facts

Zecharia Sitchin: The Past Holds the Key to the Future

Donald M. Ware: Telepathic Communications and UFO
Phenomena

John Hunter Gray, Ph.D.: Thoughts On Fear,
Extraterrestrials, and Healthy Minds

elisabet Sahtouris, Ph.D.: Expanding Our World View To
Other Dimensions

James J. Funaro: On The Cultural Impact of
Extraterrestrial Contact, With Special Attention To
Religion As An Adaptive Response

Jerome C. Glenn: So What Do We Do Now? Ten Points to
Consider

John E. Mack, M.D.: Studying Intrusions From the Subtle
Realm: How Can We Deepen Our Knowledge

Keith Farrell: If We Can't Talk To Each Other, How Can
We Expect To Talk To Them?

Michael Michaud: A Unique Moment in Human History

The Panels: Fear, Hope and Future

Fear Panel: Baldwin, Funaro, Hunt, Underwood
Hope Panel: Montgomery, Ware, Boylan, Sprinkle
Future Panel: Petersen, Glenn, Sitchin

Epilogue: A Special Search for Knowledge

The When Cosmic Cultures Meet Conference was Dedicated:

"To all of those in each country and culture who are keepers of
the secrets and sacred knowledge about the ubiquitousness of
life in all dimensions throughout the Universe, and to their
counterparts in all these dimensions.

Is it a common understanding that we are not prepared for
contact? If this is the case, does that condition serve the
highest good for all? If these answers are unsure, and that
appears to be the case, what action or inaction is now
appropriate to more firmly establish movement toward the time
when each is honored for its existence and unique place in the
Universal plan?

We do not presume to know what the appropriate response to the
present condition should be, but challenge all keepers of these
secrets and sacred knowledge to look again into the Source of
your being and seek guidance.

It does appear that our shared interests and vision of the
future is clouded by the consequences of a policy or rvelatory
gradualism. At a minimum, is it not time for a quickened
dialogue?"

The Presidents UFO Story
www.presidentialufo.com








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:39:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:03:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:11:36 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >I believe the nature of the error-generating process would be
 >called confabulation.

Ok thanks, now we're beginning to get somewhere. Let's see if we
can puzzle out what's going on here.

 >I have written an article, published in IUR (Spring 2001, Vol
 >26, No. 1) entitled "UFOs on Memory Lane" (a title I didn't
 >pick) which concerns a UFO sighting complete with occupants made
 >in 1975. Briefly we had two witnesses, together, who reported a
 >series of UFO sightings one night. We have here the initial
 >reports, taken on the evening of the sighting and we have a
 >number of other reports, from the same two people taken over a
 >period of two to four weeks.

I guess IUR is "International UFO Reporter"?

I know for a fact City U library don't have this, so I'd like to
ask a few questions if that's ok.

 >The solution to the sighting, I believe, is aircraft landing
 >lights. They were looking toward the airport and they talked of
 >the UFOs suddenly blossoming into brightness (the pilots turned
 >on the lights) and then the craft descending until they
 >disappeared behind the distant trees.

So does this mean more than one aircraft was involved? How far
would the witnesses have been from the aircraft?

How many points of light were associated with each particular
object?

If these objects were in fact landing aircraft, then presumably
they would not necessarily all be identical. I live in London
and see landing aircraft all the time, and sometimes they appear
as individual bright points of light, and sometimes as multiple
white and red lights.

 >Originally both talked of points of light, sometimes with a
 >flashing red light associated with them. The original sketches,
 >made on the night of the sighting showed these points of light
 >and provided the perceived path of descent. One of the
 >witnesses, interviewed later, suggested a domed disk that
 >included a band of red and white lights around it and a large
 >red light under it. Clearly that witness was now describing
 >something more than the point of light originally reported.

Presumably the aircraft would have been observed in at least two
states, before and after the landing lights were turned on. I
guess these witness descriptions and sketches refer to the
"after" state?

I wonder of there might be another sort of error at work here -
  an assimilation or deletion error? Presumably if there were
multiple objects sighted, then the witnesses would not have been
asked to draw a separate diagram of each object - or were they?
If not, then the two witnesses might not have selected the same
objects, or the same weighted combinations of objects, as the
schematic paradigm on which to base their memories and drawings.
(The selection process would be largely automatic, of course.)

One consequence of this would be that each witness's description
at any given time was the result of assimilating and combining
the properties of a different set of objects.

This would explain to some extent why one witness's depiction
remained relatively constant while the other's did not.

I can easily imagine that a landing aircraft might present to a
witness as a disk-shaped object surrounded by red and white
flashing lights, I've seen plenty that look like this. In which
case the description of the objects as "points of light" could
be a deletion error, the other lights being eliminated by the
visual system as noise.

Outline effects associated with clusters of lights are
problematic anyway, as you will undoubtedly know. As a vision
researcher, I'd be more interested in the degree of correlation
(or rigidity) displayed by clusters of moving lights - the brain
derives most of its visual information from optic flow.

 >Then, later, that same witness produced a third sketch, this
 >time it showed not only the disk shape, but two shapes at one
 >end that represented the pilots or crew. We had moved from a
 >point of light to an occupant sighting.

Were these shapes schematic representations of the pilots, or
detailed illustrations? How did they scale with respect to the
object itself?

If we were to understand this in terms of selective memory
encoding, then the salient feature for that particular witness
would be the presence of a "spaceship". In that case, the
various other features would be present as aspects or properties
of the core feature, which would be the "spaceship" itself.
  The "occupants" in themselves would be low salience features
(rather like the tires on a car). Such aspect properties would
be potentially subject to approximation errors and background
substitution.

 >The other witness couldn't understand the change in what had
 >been seen. That witness said that there had only been the points
 >of light and no sign of a large craft or creatures from it.

I'd be interested in knowing if it was possible to obtain
mutiple sketches of the "object" from the same witness at more
or less the same time. If these were to contain many
variations, that would be a giveaway that background
substitution was going on.


Cathy








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:55:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:04:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:03:52 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Thank goodness for a bit of balance on this thread. I know it's
 >a cliche, but extraordinary claims *do* require extraordinary
 >proof. Whilst refusing to acknoledge that the term
 >"skeptibunker" has any meaning, I certainly agree that sceptical
 >ufologists are more than grudgingly prepared to admit that there
 >are fascinating reports out there. I think where people get
 >upset is when we claim that those fascinating reports tell us
 >more about the human condition than anything outside ourselves.
 >This is my personal interest.

 >I find it remarkable that anyone should be surprised when people
 >suggest that the more remarkable the claim, the more the onus is
 >on the person presenting the claim to make out a case for it,
 >and the more open they are to challenge if they fail to do this.

Are UFO sightings still extraordinary events, after 55 years of
learning of hundreds or thousands of them each year? I'd say
they've become quite ordinary. Therefore they should no longer
require extraordinary evidence. Ordinary evidence should do
fine.


Jim Deardorff








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               Re: Washington F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript -

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:21:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:06:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Washington F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript -


 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:21:32 -0700
 >Subject: F-16 Scramble - FOX Transcript

<snip>

 >Transcript of FOX NEWScast, dated JULY 26, 2002 around 7:40 p.m.
 >E.D.T.

<snip>

Thank _you_, Kenny, for taking the time to share this
information with us. Did you type in the transcript yourself?
Whether speaking for many on this List or for just myself, I/we
appreciate the efforts of people like you and others who keep us
informed.

Keep up the good work!

Amy








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:02:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:11:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:17:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:36:08 -0500

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:14:30 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:56:50 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:20:31 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>>I don't recall anyone on this List ever claiming that witness
 >>>>>testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >>>>I am shocked. I have never seen _anything_ by you that made the
 >>>>in the matter of IFOs, where Condon's findings underscore its
 >>>>startling accuracy.

 >>>Obviously eyewitness testimony can be reliable, and is reliable
 >>>about many things. It can also be unreliable. Does anybody doubt
 >>>this? Only you, who absurdly claimed that others have claimed
 >>>that it is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >>Now we learn, belatedly, that to you eyewitness testimony can
 >>be reliable, and not only that, "obviously" so. The tune has
 >>changed, so maybe we're making progress.

 >Jerry:

 >If you say so.

 >>You have ignored my question, so let me phrase it again:
 >>Can you cite an unexplained, high-strangeness UFO case in
 >>which you judge the witnesses to be credible and their
 >>testimony worth heeding as a reliable indication of what they
 >>actually saw?

 >You have deliberately ignored my challenge: has anyone on this
 >List, other than youself, ever - ever - claimed that witness
 >testimony is to be considered totally unreliable.

 >Can you offer us a citation?


As I recall from the various threads on the List when the List
talked about the Ravena, Ohio police chase, the skeptics (as
they have always done and always continue to do) floated up
Venus as the culprit, ignoring the testimony of the police
officers.

When the List discussed the trent case, never mind that photo
anaylsis concluded the photos were legit (Bruce Macabee) we were
treated to people postulating that in fact it was some kind of
hoax... hub cap or mirror from some car or something like
that... which is the same old skeptical tales (which don't
stick) that have been floating for 30 years, i.e. pie pan on a
thread, hub caps and everything else.

When we talked about Rendlesheim the skeptics unloaded how
witnesses really mistakenly saw a light house blah blah blah.

When we talked about the Arnold case it was suggested that he,
in fact, saw a particular kind of bird amongst other "witness
mistaken" explainations.

I have been in the UFO side of things since the 70s. Whether on
this List, or in the writings of the skeptibunkers and others
they always and continually fall back on (big pelican-squawk
here): the witness did not in fact see what they claimed to have
seen, so in essence they were either mistaken, or it was a hoax,
or Venus, weather balloon, and so on, and hence their testimony
should be disregarded.

Now if a witness claimed to have seen a meteor, described the
encounter (even though it may have been only two or three
seconds) the skeptibunkers would instantly have pelican-drool
running all over themselves and tell us how the witness
correctly, saw, identified, and their was no question that it
was a meteor.

As I asked before, has anybody ever heard a skeptibunker ever,
ever, question the reliability of a witness if they witnessed
anything (kidnapping, meteor, car wreck) other then a UFO? I
would be interested if any skeptic has personally challenged the
testimony of a witness to a meteor, car wreck, or anything
non-UFO? It is highly probable that this has never happened.


Cheers,

Robert







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   Jul > Jul 28

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:06:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:13:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Okay, simple question:

 >>In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >>accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >>indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

 >Travis Walton

If you consider Travis Walton case to be accurate and the
witness testimony to be accurate, then would you agree that
Travis had an encounter with a UFO and some sort of beings?

What standards of proof have to met to be considered a true UFO?


Cheers,

Robert








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              Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 03:15:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:17:43 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Goldstein


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.ne
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:11:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700
 >>Subject: Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>NIDS has just issued a white paper outlining their theory that
 >>the flying boomerangs may be military in origin.

 >>Over the years I've uncovered some tantalizing hints in this
 >>direction myself, so I'd be very interested if anyone here has
 >>any comments on the NIDS paper.

 >>I'm no aerospace engineer, but the technical stuff in this
 >>report seems to be just a bit on the rough side.

 >>Can anyone here with the requisite expertise review this article
 >>with an eye toward confirming or denying some of the science
 >>therein?

 >>http://www.nidsci.org/whatsnew.html

 >Having just read the summary of the FT/LTA as according to NIDS
 >I immediately come up with several questions. 1] Why the
 >secrecy? 2] Why risk this secrecy by flying them in domestic
 >airspace? 3] Who was/is building them? 4] What were/are these
 >special craft being saved for? Germany has been experimenting
 >with LTA craft for 100 years and is quite open about it and even
 >now are preparing these prototypes for transporting large cargo
 >containers. If we are to believe that the LTAs are the answer to
 >the UFO phenomena why has the US government [for example] spent
 >so many billions of dollars on rocketry for space and other
 >methods of propulsion for its military purposes?

 >I'm reminded of Paul R. Hill's reaction to his sighting back in
 >the early 50s when he saw a huge UFO near Langley, Virginia and
 >spent the next 30 years trying to figure out what the heck he'd
 >witnessed. Hill as most will remember was an aeronautical
 >engineer working at Langley on thrust vectoring and thereby made
 >it possible to eliminate "fins" [control surfaces] on American
 >rockets which were ineffective at slow speeds. I'm impressed
 >with the summary and excited about the possibility of some
 >newer, less fuel piggish ways of moving commodities and even
 >people around but without answers to the first 4 questions-this
 >is not the answer to the UFO question.

 >If these craft are being built in the United States, who is
 >behind them and how inneffectual is the USAF in not being able
 >to maintain their authority over/in their own airspace.

 >This piece raises many more questions than it answers.


Hi Don,

That NIDS hypothesis is very interesting. Many have always been
hoping for a craft powered by T. Townshend Brown's
electrokinetics. A number of companies heavily researched
electrogravitics some years ago and then the black project cloth
may have dropped on it.

To think that it may well have been developed at Groom. To think
that the black triangles constantly being reported may be LTAs
that are USAF electrogravitic craft easily able to perform in
the manor witnesses have described. Wow! if there is reality to
this hypothesis. But how to get further answers to questions and
confirmation without trying to burrow under the thick and heavy
bkack shroud? Here we have the ideas of an unnamed aircraft
designer.We are asked to accept the theory and trust that he is
significant in his field. I am also no aeronautical engineer and
no physicist. I have no idea if his theory is coherent with what
has been learned regarding electrokinetic propulsion.

I await further information. When I was involved in Northern
California MUFON there was (and most likely still is) a fellow
who was so hopeful that electrogravitic craft were flying.
Shortly after the B2 Bomber had the black shroud lifted, that
fella was convinced that besides the jet engines there was
electrogravitic power that enabled the bomber to perform in a
black envelope that was very highly classified. He used to give
presentations of his convictions in front of the meetings. He
would project large B2 pictures and stake his claim.
Unfortunately, back when I was there that poor fellow never
could produce any evidence beyond his hopeful suspicions.

As a lifetime lover of aviation and a former pilot, I sure hope
that the LTAs are powered by electrokinesis. That would be cool.
In ten years the technology and cost will have come down to
where local members of the Experimental Aircraft Association
will be making smaller homebuilt kits of the LTA triangles. I
hope I get to go up with someone and try to fly it.

By the way Don, I'm living in Berlin, Germany. The cargo-lifter
LTA consortium is just outside Berlin to the West, with their
field and factory, in what used to be East Germany. But due to
the economy they declared bankruptcy a few weeks ago.  I don't
know the strength of the Zepellin werks, the other project. They
have built a passenger carrying Zep and they are also supposed
to be developing a larger model to carry cargo or whatever. I'll
have to look into their financial package. Over here I have seen
no information related to German LTAs flying on electrogravitics
or any other exotic technology. They just slowly buzz along
through the air.

I wonder if the Belgian triangles of 1989 and 1990 and the NIDS
were in any way related? However the span and the chord of the
Bekgian craft was a different ratio than the NIDS portrayal.


Keep 'em flying,

Josh










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                F-16 Scramble - Interview With NORAD Command

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 18:55:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:18:55 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - Interview With NORAD Command


This afternoon I spoke with a Marine Corp. Major with NORAD and
the United States Space Command, Major Mike Snyder. Major Snyder
is a command spokesman for both NORAD and the US Space Command.
He was reached through the Peterson Air Force Base operator at
719-556-7321,

When asked about the event taking place near Washington D.C. on
Friday morning, September 26, 2002, Major Snyder said that he
could handle some brief questions. Although he was unfamiliar
with specific details such as the exact time NORAD detect the
unidentified aircraft, he said that he knew the object was
tracked by radar. When asked if the radar detection was from
more than one radar sensor, he said "I don't know." Major Snyder
was not aware of any other method of detection employed by NORAD
in this instance, such as pilot, tower controller or satellite
observation

He was not briefed on the estimated location of the object when
first detected and would not disclose the estimated speed or
altitude of the object when first detected, saying only that it
met the criteria of a 'small private aircraft.'

Major Mike Snyder was not aware of any video or photographic
documentation of the unidentified aircraft.

"Keeping things at the NORAD level," Major Snyder said, "this
was a track of interest. It was viewed as a reasonable security
precaution to ascertain the intentions of the track and
implement a graduated response."

Major Snyder said that in extreme circumstances, such a response
may include use of lethal force.

"It never entered restricted DC airspace," Major Synder said
while refusing to comment further about what point the radar
track ultimately raised concerns.

Major Snyder did not think that the Secret Service was alerted
to the situation at any point.

"NORAD is absolutely not concerned about this situation," Major
Snyder said. "We posture our forces according to the threat and
at no time did this incident involve any threat to our country.
It was an innocuous happening."

When asked if NORAD was aware of civilian sightings of a UFO
before, simultaneous or after their detection of the
unidentified aircraft, Major Snyder said: "I don't have any info
on that."

Major Snyder was also asked if he felt the civilian sightings of
a UFO were correlated to the jet dispatch or if the news media
had drawn an inappropriate linkage. "I don't have any opinion on
it, but since 9-1-1 we've been operating 23,000 sorties and many
of these missions will generate requests for info," he said,
"and whenever people see something since 9-1-1 they call the
media. The media calls us and word gets around."

When asked if he could recall the first news media operation to
contact him regarding the story, he said: "I can't recall. All
the big names have been calling though."

When asked for his opinion on the discrepancy between civilian
reports of the jets in pursuit of a UFO and pilot claims to have
seen nothing, Major Snyder said: "People see what they want to
see. What these people reported could have been exhaust from the
jet itself, depending on whether or not the pilot was on or off
afterburners. We don't think it was a UFO."

When Major Snyder was asked if there was an explanation for the
unidentified radar track, he said: "In this situation we found
nothing at all. The radar return may have been caused by a small
plane flying low, and sometimes that will cause them to drop on
or off the radar."

Major Snyder was asked of a Washington Post report that states
the radar return 'faded' from sight, and he said: "I don't have
any info on this. But it's not uncommon for either routine or
unidentified radar returns to fade. Sometimes a plane will
simply come down and land on a small airport in the area or on a
grassy strip."

The Command Spokesman was then asked if he could inform of a
location, speed and altitude the object was last observed, and
he said: "I cannot get into this with any specificity."

Our discussion then focused on the dispatch of the ANG jets of
the 113th Fighter Group out of Andrews Air Force Base and he
suggested that I consult with ANG public affairs in this regard.
I inquired if the radar returns of the responding fighter jets
were visible simultaneous to the radar observation of the
unidentified object and he said: "You know, I don't know the
answer to that. It's a good question. I don't know if the jets
appeared simultaneous on radar with the object but would not be
certain if that information is even releasable due to
operational policy."

Major Snyder went on to add that there are many issues of
operational policy and readiness that can't be discussed for
security reasons. He was thanked for his time and I asked that
he research the radar issue concerning the simultaneous track of
the jets and the unidentified aircraft and that I would call him
back next week for follow up.

Filed,
SATURDAY, July 27, 2002
KENNY YOUNG
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo








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                          FOIA Appeal July 27, 2002

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:22:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:21:59 -0400
Subject: FOIA Appeal July 27, 2002


TO: Secretary of State
    ATTN: General Counsel for FOIA Appeals
    U. S. Department of State
    2201 C Street, N.W.
    Washington, DC 20522

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
     3518 Martha Custis Drive
     Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: July 27, 2002

Since I have yet to receive a reply from your department to my
June 6, 2002, FOIA request (copy enclosed) that I be provided a
copy of the entire contents of your department's
declassification-review case file on the NARA-held Intelligence
Advisory Board memorandum of July 17, 1947, I construe that lack
of reply as a formal, direct, and unequivocal denial of my
request.

Accordingly, I hereby appeal this denial on the grounds of your
department's noncompliance with the response-time requirement of
the U. S. Freedom of Information Act. Your failure to respond
to, or to grant this appeal promptly and fully, will set in
motion the appropriate legal remedy.


LARRY W. BRYANT

P. S.: A print-out of this e-formatted letter is being mailed
to you via the U. S. Postal Service.

Copy furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)








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                          F-16 Scramble - Analysis

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:49:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:47:21 -0400
Subject: F-16 Scramble - Analysis


This is forwarded to UFO UpDates for any added comment from the
List, it is in response to remarks from a post on CURRENT
ENCOUNTERS.

--

Richard Hall wrote:

 >It still remains unclear whether this is a "good" UFO case or
 >not (possibly a confusion among false stimuli and unwarranted
 >assumptions), but the only way we will find out is by the kind
 >of questions you are asking, plus careful interrogation of
 >eyewitnesses.

 >-Dick


Mr. Hall;

Thanks for the comments and I tend to agree that we don't
necessarily have a substantive linkage between the two reported
events: the NORAD radar track and the citizen reports of jet(s)
in pursuit of a UFO. While the linkage certainly *seems* fairly
obvious, it has yet to be verified -as you suggest- through
extended review of the case data and direct interrogation of the
eyewitnesses.

I do know that earlier this afternoon Donnie Blessing has been
trying to track down Mr. Renny Rogers, the primary eyewitness as
indicated in media reports. Blessing has obtained his full name
but unfortunately his phone number is unlisted. I suspect that
the Washington Post reporter acquired contact info for Rogers
through WTOP radio, where presumably Rogers (and others) first
called in to report the disturbance. If there is a local
investigator in the area they may have more success.

For some reason I simply cannot buy the explanation that the
witnesses were observing the blue flame of a jet afterburner
(which should be *behind* the plane at all times!). If so, this
raises numerous questions such as 1). planes must be fairly low
for afterburners to be so noticeably visible to ground witnesses
2). F-16s do not necessarily need to be 'down low' searching for
a second plane, do they? Couldn't they conduct their search from
a higher elevation? How are they conducting this night-time
search at this presumed low elevation... instrument or night-
vision optics? 3). to be flying relatively low for afterburners
to be visible to ground witnesses may be unusually dangerous at
night to due collision potential with trees, towers, powerlines,
etc., 4). firing afterburners would likely make the plane gain
considerable speed, making its presence in the area only a
brief, momentary disturbance. Witnesses were supposedly aroused
from inside their homes to step outside and still have time to
witness and hear the spectacle, This not only suggests the event
taking place for an extended duration over a certain locality
but might also involve course adjustment or 'circling' of a
certain area so that alarmed ground witnesses could take viewing
action.

It was somewhat unsettling to hear Maj. Snyder suggest that some
of the radar data concerning a simultaneous track of the F-16's
and the 'object' may not be releasable due to 'operational
policy.' I can't fathom why this particular information would be
withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
either.

Another note; the comment by Maj. Snyder regarding small
privately owned airplanes or grassy runways in someone's
property or backyard should be of paramount importance given the
ability for a suspected private plane to land or 'disappear'
into. Keep in mind that in proximity to the restricted airspace
over the nation's capitol, such a hidden base of operations
might serve hostile purposes and this identification of this
hypothetical location and/or aircraft should be of major
concern. Maj. Snyder said this situation posed "absolutely no
concern" to the NORAD or threat to the security of the nation,
but if his hypothesis is correct than this should be one heck of
a concern.


Kenny Young








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:10:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:48:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:11:36 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Then, later, that same witness produced a third sketch, this
 >time it showed not only the disk shape, but two shapes at one
 >end that represented the pilots or crew. We had moved from a
 >point of light to an occupant sighting.

Ok, I've thought about this some more, and the more I think
about it, the more suspicious of it I get.

I feel certain there is something more going on here than just
confabulation - in any case, confabulation, like everything
else, doesn't just happen out of the blue - there's always a
reason for it, often something to do with demand bias.

Were these "occupants" observed inside or outside the object?
Were they observed through some sort of windows, or by some
other means?

I'm beginning to wonder if these occupants were part of a
symbolic representation, not a visual description at all - in
the same way that a symbolic representation of a church usually
contains a tower, even though not all churches have towers.

Did this witness ever talk of these occupants separately from
the object itself?  Did all the objects have occupants, or only
some of them?  How many times did the witness refer to these
occupants, and to whom, other than this particular sketch?  Do
you know at what point the witness started talking about
occupants?  How did the witness identify the shapes on the
sketch as "occupants"?

I'm certain there's something going on here and I'm determined
to figure out what it is.


Cathy








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                 5 More Mutilated Cows In Formosa Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:52:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:20:45 -0400
Subject: 5 More Mutilated Cows In Formosa Argentina


SOURCE: El Comercial (newspaper)
DATE: Sunday, July 28, 2002

BETWEEN BARTOLOME DE LAS CASAS AND FONTANA
Five Cows Mutilated

Four mutilated cows were found again some 12 km southwest of
Bartolome de las Casas, having the same characteristics as
earlier cases. Two were found on Wednesday and two more on
Thursday at a field owned by Ariel "Papin" Suarez.

The fifth animal was found yesterday in Estanislao del Campo:
the victim was a cow belonging to Victor Andres Roldan in the
Ranero Cu=E9 pasture field, some 10 km. distant from the town,
having all of the characteristics indicate, such as
"mutilation," "cauterization" and "millimetric incisions."

Fourteen "unofficial" reports were received in the Fontana and
Bartolome de las Casas region; reports include a young horse, a
buffalo and 12 bovines. A more extensive report will appear
tomorrow.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi









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                     Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:59:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:22:49 -0400
Subject: Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again


SOURCE: El Fuerte (newspaper), Chascomus, Argentina
DATE: July 27, 2002

BREAKING NEWS

Seen by several residents
Luces extra=F1as sobre la laguna
(Image obtained at the laggon by EL FUERTE)

A couple that was driving along last night at around 21:00 hours
from the SETIA campground toward the city along the peripheral
road witnessed a large, sky-blue light moving over the lagoon,
changing color and size as it did so

Once this newspaper was alerted, a reporter from this newsroom
was able to see the light which at the time remain static over
Mt. Brown, seen from the San Jos=E9 Beach Facility. Its color was
now red and it gave off flashes.

Minutes later a local resident contacted EL FUERTE [to say that
she had seen] the light descend and lose itself behind the
treeline. An hour later, at 22:30, two other witnesses saw the
phenomenon on Route 20, near the Aeroclub. The object moved
slowly westward..

This sighting can be added to others which have been taking
place in our area in recent weeks.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi









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                     Another Argentine Bovine Mutilated

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:02:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:24:32 -0400
Subject: Another Argentine Bovine Mutilated



SOURCE: El Tiempo On-Line (Azul, Buenos Aires)
DATE: 07.27.02

ANOTHER BOVINE MUTILATED, THIS TIME IN PARISH

A farm foreman informed EL TIEMPO last night that while
surveying the El Yunque ranch in the locality of Parish, he
found a bovine presenting signs of mutilation. The case,
according to the rural worker's description, is similar to
others detected in the area and other parts of the country. In
this specific case, the animal showed mutilations in the rectal
area, tongue, eyes and jaw.

==========================

Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi









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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:05:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:26:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:31:33 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:00:03 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>Okay, simple question:

 >>>In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >>>accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >>>indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

 >>Travis Walton

 >Good for you, John. I'm genuinely please to learn that you can
 >still surprise me.


Jerry:

Don't look now, but I think he's yanking your chain. Even _I_
don't necessarily accept Travis' account as accurate (or
truthful for that matter). I can't render an opinion one way or
the other on that part of the incident, but it's a sure bet that
John is being facetious - at the expense of my keyboard.

==JJS==








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              Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:15:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:27:52 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement


 >From: Steve Jones <stvjns@gargoylemechanique.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:03:41 -0400
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Inquiry With Law Enforcement

<snip>

 >This is comparable to Disclosure Project witnesses who state
 >they routinely lied to investigators and others who asked them
 >what they saw, read, heard, knew, and/or reported to higher-ups.

 >From a (truly) skeptical point of view, these responses from
 >Waldorf, Maryland authorities are very possibly standard cover-
 >up procedure. In other words, in the final analysis, not a whole
 >lot of real value to the UFO researcher.


Its also possible no one called the police. In every report so
far, I've seen the same witness name, Rennie-something, and she
seems to have called a radio station (going on memory here, my
previous emails are at my Glendale house and I'm in Show Low).

Is it possible to get the call logs from the various police
stations?

==JJS==








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               Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:19:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:31:17 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET? - Ledger


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 03:15:43 +0200
 >Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.ne
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:11:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: NIDS Flying Triangles DoD Not ET?

<snip>

 >>This piece raises many more questions than it answers.

 >That NIDS hypothesis is very interesting. Many have always been
 >hoping for a craft powered by T. Townshend Brown's
 >electrokinetics. A number of companies heavily researched
 >electrogravitics some years ago and then the black project cloth
 >may have dropped on it.

 >To think that it may well have been developed at Groom. To think
 >that the black triangles constantly being reported may be LTAs
 >that are USAF electrogravitic craft easily able to perform in
 >the manor witnesses have described. Wow! if there is reality to
 >this hypothesis. But how to get further answers to questions and
 >confirmation without trying to burrow under the thick and heavy
 >bkack shroud? Here we have the ideas of an unnamed aircraft
 >designer.We are asked to accept the theory and trust that he is
 >significant in his field. I am also no aeronautical engineer and
 >no physicist. I have no idea if his theory is coherent with what
 >has been learned regarding electrokinetic propulsion.

 >I await further information. When I was involved in Northern
 >California MUFON there was (and most likely still is) a fellow
 >who was so hopeful that electrogravitic craft were flying.
 >Shortly after the B2 Bomber had the black shroud lifted, that
 >fella was convinced that besides the jet engines there was
 >electrogravitic power that enabled the bomber to perform in a
 >black envelope that was very highly classified. He used to give
 >presentations of his convictions in front of the meetings. He
 >would project large B2 pictures and stake his claim.
 >Unfortunately, back when I was there that poor fellow never
 >could produce any evidence beyond his hopeful suspicions.

 >As a lifetime lover of aviation and a former pilot, I sure hope
 >that the LTAs are powered by electrokinesis. That would be cool.
 >In ten years the technology and cost will have come down to
 >where local members of the Experimental Aircraft Association
 >will be making smaller homebuilt kits of the LTA triangles. I
 >hope I get to go up with someone and try to fly it.

 >By the way Don, I'm living in Berlin, Germany. The cargo-lifter
 >LTA consortium is just outside Berlin to the West, with their
 >field and factory, in what used to be East Germany. But due to
 >the economy they declared bankruptcy a few weeks ago.  I don't
 >know the strength of the Zepellin werks, the other project. They
 >have built a passenger carrying Zep and they are also supposed
 >to be developing a larger model to carry cargo or whatever. I'll
 >have to look into their financial package. Over here I have seen
 >no information related to German LTAs flying on electrogravitics
 >or any other exotic technology. They just slowly buzz along
 >through the air.

 >I wonder if the Belgian triangles of 1989 and 1990 and the NIDS
 >were in any way related? However the span and the chord of the
 >Bekgian craft was a different ratio than the NIDS portrayal.

 >Keep 'em flying,


Hi Josh,

Like you, I'd love to see something come along to get us away
from oil based fuels. However a War Bird wouldn't be a War Bird
without a big P&W radial or a Merlin or a Daimler out in front
converting expensive gas and oil into noise and of course
horsepower. Airshows would never be the same.

I mentioned in my email to Jim Speiser about the problems with
ion wind/eddy current propulsion being the lack of a lightweight
power supply to get it running. There would be a crossover point
with a truly large platform capable of mounting some nuclear
power plant similar to a slowpoke reactor I suppose capable of
producing enough electrical energy to lift one of these things.
If so there would certainly be a great deal of ionized air and
electrical interference generated which should make it easy to
track these craft. They would also likely disrupt communications
perhaps even precipitate some local weather changes.

Notice how often cigar shaped objects are seen coming from or
entering a solitary cloud in a clear blue sky.

But my main objection to these being machines of our own making
is why bother to keep them secret? And of what use are they to
the military/intelligence community? Additionally, it's been my
experience -through email information and internet information
and books-that these things are generally slow moving. Prosaic
LTAs are slow moving. Again, why re-invent the wheel.

I'm saddened to hear of the LTA work being carried on in Germany
going bankrupt. I'd expected some considerable movement there
particularly where commercial transport of commodities was
concerned.

I'm prepared to keep an open mind about the NIDS proposal,
however until i get some satisfactory answers of why and who
etc. I'll remain "skeptical".

Best,

Don Ledger










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                   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:50:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:32:46 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Fleming


 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:49:39 -0700
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >This is forwarded to UFO UpDates for any added comment from the
 >List, it is in response to remarks from a post on CURRENT
 >ENCOUNTERS.

 >For some reason I simply cannot buy the explanation that the
 >witnesses were observing the blue flame of a jet afterburner
 >(which should be *behind* the plane at all times!).

Neither can I. One reason is that it seems strange that military
fighter jets would have to turn on afterburners in pursuit of a
slower private plane. Aren't afterburners used only when extra
thrust is needed for take-off or for high-speed operation?

Another thing is that the afterburner exhaust of an F-16 doesn't
appear to be blue at all. At least it isn't in this picture:

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Mar1998/980311-F-4116M-009.html

I don't see how the whitish, needle-like projection of flame,
small in proportion to the aircraft itself, would be mistaken
for a light blue object.  I'm no authority on jet aircraft, so I
could be wrong. But what this Maj. Snyder said sounds more to me
like an off-the-cuff and not very well thought out speculation
in response to questions for which he really had no answers to
give. His comment that "people see what they want to see"
suggests a certain amount of irritation on his part at having to
answer any questions at all.








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:45:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:26:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:28:07 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Cas

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:53:40 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >John and patient, gentle listfolk:

 >This is becoming a huge waste of time. This all began, if anyone
 >cares to remember, with John's denying that there were any other
 >witnesses. I have repeatedly produced statements from
 >investigating authorities asserting otherwise, and I have challenged
 >him, to no avail, to produce negative evidence that does not
 >rest on innuendo and speculation.

 >>>Bacellar is actually a secondary witness, who came out on deck
 >>>immediately after the witnesses observed the UFO's passage from
 >>>the deck.

 >>By "secondary witness" you mean someone who didn't actually see the
 >>thing they were witnessing? Fine.

 >Yes, Bacellar was a secondary witness. He came on deck just after
 >the UFO had disappeared, in time to hear the witnesses discussing it
 >excitedly. Sorry that he doesn't help your case.

Bacellar says: "I was called to the deck immediately after the
event. The fact caused some natural excitiation and the
subsequent racing of people to the ships deck attracted by the
shouts of those who sighted the object"

The clear implication of this is that people raced to the deck
only after the sighting. Who did "the shouts of those who
sighted the object" come from: Barauna, Vieira, Viegas and
(possibly ) Homera?

 >What part of this don't you understand? What part of my
 >challenge to provide actual disconfirmatory evidence - instead
 >of innuendo and rank speculation - against the sighting and the
 >photos? A case like this, if it were a hoax, would have been
 >child's play to expose. The fact that nearly 45 years later, you
 >can't do any better with a negative case than you've done --
 > which is fill holes with evidence-free speculation - tells us
 >what we need to know. This is a remarkable UFO case, and
 >debunkers have yet to prove otherwise.

 >Until you do that - and it seems clear by now that you can't -
 > this exchange is pointless. All it does is remind me why I
 >rejected pelicanist ufology a long time ago, and I hardly needed
 >to be reminded of that.

What do you want? A report from the Brazilian Navy listing all
the people who _didn't_ see the UFO? What would be the point of
them compiling such a thing?

 >>Here's something falsifiable: I claim that these people were
 >>Barauna, Viegas and (possibly) Vieira. Jerry Clark can falsify
 >>this statement by finding another single direct eyewitness
 >>report from someone who was on deck and saw the UFO at the same
 >>time as Barauna.

 >Perhaps you can do better: Provide us with a _nonspeculative_
 >explanation of why all the investigators conspired to lie about
 >the witnesses, and how they managed to keep all of those
 >witnesses from exposing the hoax for the next 44+ years.

Here's Jerry going on about lying and conspiracies again, as if
they are the only alternatives. Does it not occur to you that
the investigators may just have not have had all the
information? And why would all the other members of the crew, if
they were not on deck and did not see any object, assume that
Barauna et al were perpetrating a hoax and set out to expose
them? Maybe they also just didn't know what happened. Oh, no,
far more dramatic to talk about lies and conspiracies than the
general vagueness of human nature and actions.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:06:59 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:56:44 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>>Okay, simple question:

 >>>In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >>>accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >>>indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

 >>Travis Walton

 >If you consider Travis Walton case to be accurate and the
 >witness testimony to be accurate, then would you agree that
 >Travis had an encounter with a UFO and some sort of beings?
 >
 >What standards of proof have to met to be considered a true UFO?

The Travis Walton case is a strange and complex one, and no
explanation - hoax, misinterpretaion, actual ET abduction -
  seems to fit all the facts as reported. Unlike the Trindade
island case we actually have statements from *all* the people
involved, and they were all spoken to by investigators.

Unfortunately they did not all see the actual abduction, but
they all saw enough to suggest that *something* happened.

No, I don't think that T.W. had an encounter with some sort of
beings, but this belief is based on my opinion of the
collectivity of UFO cases, rather than on evidence from this one
case.

If you put me against a wall with a gun to my head, I would
probably say "hoax", but before Jerry jumps on me again, I
emphasise that this is a suspicion rather than a deduction, and
I have no idea who might have been hoaxing who, why, or how, and
I am always ready to consider further evidence.

To quote the title of a popular British radio show: "I'm sorry,
I haven't a clue!"

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:29:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:29:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:17:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:50:22 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:27:53 -0500

 >>>As repeated statements make clear, there were many witnesses to
 >>>the UFO's presence. Not a single statement from an investigating
 >>>officer - or from a "witness" asserting that, all other
 >>>testimony notwithstanding, no UFO appeared while he was in a
 >>>position to view it - denies that. The witnesses, as we know
 >>>from Navy documents, were in two groups, one at the front and
 >>>the other at the rear of the ship.

 >>Of course, if no other witness was in a position to view it, why
 >>would they want to deny it?

 >Is this supposed to mean something?

Yes. Endlessly we are told that there were many witnesses to
this case. Yet we never get any names other than those of three
people who were friends of Barauna. Of these three people, one
gives and unambiguous statement that he saw the UFO that Barauna
photographed. One give a more equivocal staement. One is not
heard from. None of the numerous other alleged witnesse are
quoted or named. You seem to think this is not significant. I
think it is significant.

 >>It wasn't me who made Barauna strip-off while he develped the
 >>film, it was Bacellar. He must presumably have though that at
 >>least the possibilty of fraud would have been raised and it was
 >>worth taking some elementary precautions against it.

 >Huh? Unless I've missed something, I have no idea where you get
 >the idea that Bacellar demanded that Barauna strip. Bacellar
 >reports that Barauna developed the photos in shirt and short,
 >but nowhere says that he _insisted_ Barauna do so.

Yes, you are right and I am wrong. (Sorry, pelicanists aren't
supposed to say things like that, are they?) There is nothing in
any of the accounts I have read which say that it was Bacellar
who insisted that Barauna stripped before developing the film.
My apologies.

However, several reports do make a specific point of mentioning
this fact, and it is clearly implied that this limited the
possibility fo fraud. I think is is not unreasonable to ask if
Viegas, who accompanied Barauna into the darkroom, also
stripped. However, there seesm to be no record of this.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                                 Cargo Cults

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 21:46:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:36:43 -0400
Subject: Cargo Cults


It seems to me that a great deal of energy is spent on
addressing challenges of whether a particular sighting was a UFO
or an IFO. While I wholeheartedly endorse Kevin Randle's
suggestion that a base of information be generated for certain
noteworthy sightings, such as the Mantell case, the Coyne case,
etc, to avoid repeating the same information over and over, and
to establish a large database of information in one place for
certain cases, I think many of us probably already agree that
UFOs are technically advanced, intelligently-controlled craft,
most likely from another planet, and some may contain beings on
board.

I've seen at least 4 UFOs myself, and don't need to be convinced
that they exist. Granted, I don't know what they WERE, but I
certainly know what they were NOT, and have no desire to debate
the validity of my sightings of these craft (they were large,
moving objects at low altitudes - not small, moving lights). I
do, however, have a desire to somehow learn more about them, and
if they're piloted craft, induce them to land and communicate.

If the ancient stories of "gods" landing and assisting primitive
cultures are true, then they've already landed and communicated,
but apparently aren't doing this anymore. If the stories of
abductions are true, then they've apparently shown no interest
in communicating with us - unless there's a plan for the future
which we're unaware of. At any rate, though they may
occasionally land, and may occasionally respond to flashing
lights, etc, they don't land and communicate with us in a
substantive way as far as I know. Why?

I presume one reason for their not landing and stepping outside
the protection of the craft (assuming that some of them are
occupied) is the fact that we chase these things with jet
fighters where possible (I've seen that happen, too!).
Additionally, any advanced beings may realize that havoc might
ensue on earth following their revelations (or teachings?
database dumps? new information? criticism?), and havoc might
also reign in space if we are capable of sending earth's
"Klingons" (that's us) to other planets. But I have to ask the
question: Does anyone know why they don't land and communicate -
  other than those cases where they're chased by F-16s, etc? Does
Steven Greer have the answer to that question? Is Greer's
"Disclosure Project" partly aimed at establishing meaningful
contact with ETs? Why is the earth apparently off-limits for
contact? Is there some Universal Law against contact with
technical civilizations? What do we need to do to establish
meaningful, regular contact? (I don't regard SETI as a vehicle
for regular communication).

It seems to me that the 'Cosmic Watergate' we experience is not
just a governmental suppression of evidence regarding UFOs, it's
also a suppression of the reasons for non-contact by the ETs
themselves. In other words, while governments don't tell us very
much about UFOs - and sometimes nothing at all about them, the
ETs tell us nothing about _any_ subject.

These questions are somewhat reminiscent of the 'Cargo Cult' of
New Guinea - a cult which exists in modern countries as well
("Buy a personal computer and your life will somehow become
easier", "Buy this car and you will somehow become happy and
good looking"), due to a lack of understanding of the principle
of 'cause and effect'. What brought more cargo to New Guinea
(besides WWII) was increased tourism and the passage of time,
more contact with the outside world, etc - not fake airstrips,
bamboo airplanes and radios, etc. I'm not interested in cargo or
cults: I'm interested in information and contact. How can we
achieve this? Is this a topic of interest to the List? Or,
pardon the dumb question, are millions of people already working
on this problem....? My apologies if this is the wrong List on
which to raise these questions.


Dave Morton







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                            FOIA Request 07-29-02

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:32:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:39:40 -0400
Subject: FOIA Request 07-29-02


TO:  Commander
      113th Wing -- D.C. Air National Guard
      Andrews Air Force Base, MD  20762

FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
        3518 Martha Custis Drive
        Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  July 29, 2002

Under terms of the U. S. Freedom of Information Act, I hereby
request that you furnish me a copy of all U.S. government-
  generated and U.S. government-received records pertaining to
your unit's jet-interceptor pursuit of a mysterious aerial craft
on July 26, 2002 - said records to include the following
material (so as to help determine, in the public's mind,
precisely what, when (and for how long), where, by whom, and by
what means was detected/recorded/pursued):

CIRVIS reports (under provisions of JANAP 146) sent to/processed
by NORAD headquarters; audio recordings of the interceptors'
cockpit conversations; the interceptors' gun-camera photo
footage (including all related videotapes); radar-tracking data
(both ground-based and interceptor-based); witness/pilot
interview/debriefing reports; presidential briefing papers;
document-transmittal slips; memoranda-for-record; memoranda of
incoming/outgoing telephone calls; e-mail to and from all
pertinent officials/principals/witnesses/technicians; military
control-tower logs; FAA air-traffic-control communications;
intra- and inter-agency teletype messages; air intelligence
reports; your unit's standing operating procedure on
"scrambling" interceptors to pursue and challenge such
mysterious craft as the one detected/pursued near Waldorf, Md.,
on July 26; congressional inquiries (and all replies thereto);
signals intelligence emitted by the pursued craft; all logs of
your personnel's communications with any news-media
representatives; all military and law-enforcement alert
notifications; agenda lists for, and minutes of, meetings; and
liaison reports transmitted to/from foreign-government officials
(e.g., those in Mexico, Canada, and the United Kingdom).

In addition, I ask that you furnish me a copy of all equivalent
records pertaining to all other such detection/intercept
missions conducted by the 113th Wing during the past 12 months.

Since I make this request in the public interest, on behalf of
various elements of the private UFO-research community, and as a
member of the "UFO press," I ask that you waive all records-
search fees incident to your fulfilling it.


LARRY W. BRYANT
Columnist for the Website of http://www.ufocity.com

Copies furnished to:

    Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

    Chairman, Committee on Government Affairs - U. S. Senate

P.S.  "Information is PROPERTY, and PUBLIC information is PUBLIC
property." -- Larry W. Bryant








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                        Boeing Tries To Defy Gravity

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 03:46:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:42:48 -0400
Subject: Boeing Tries To Defy Gravity



Source: BBC News Online: Sci-Tech

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2157975.stm

Monday, 29 July, 2002, 03:23 GMT 04:23 UK

Boeing Tries To Defy Gravity

An anti-gravity device would revolutionise air travel
Researchers at the world's largest aircraft maker, Boeing, are
using the work of a controversial Russian scientist to try to
create a device which will defy gravity.

The company is examining an experiment by Yevgeny Podkletnov,
who claims to have developed a device which can shield objects
from the Earth's pull.

Dr Podkletnov is viewed with suspicion by many conventional
scientists, but the involvement of Boeing has lent his work a
new credibility.

The project is being run by the top-secret Phantom Works in
Seattle, the part of the company which handles Boeing's most
sensitive programs.

The head of the Phantom Works, George Milner, told the security
analysis journal Jane's Defence Weekly that the science appeared
to be valid and plausible.

Rotating disc

Dr Podkletnov claims to have countered the effects of gravity in
an experiment at the Tampere University of Technology in Finland
in 1992.

The scientist says he found that objects above a superconducting
ceramic disc rotating over powerful electromagnets lost weight.

The reduction in gravity was small, about 2%, but the
implications - for example, in terms of cutting the energy
needed for a plane to fly - were immense.

Scientists who investigated Dr Podkletnov's work, however, said
the experiment was fundamentally flawed and that negating
gravity was impossible.

Research explored

But documents obtained by Jane's Defence Weekly and seen by the
BBC show that Boeing is taking Dr Podkletnov's research
seriously.

The hypothesis is being tested in a programme codenamed Project
Grasp.

Boeing is the latest in a series of high-profile institutions
trying to replicate Dr Podkletnov's experiment.

The military wing of the UK hi-tech group BAe Systems is working
on an anti-gravity programme, dubbed Project Greenglow.

The US space agency, Nasa, is also attempting to reproduce Dr
Podkletnov's findings, but a preliminary report indicates the
effect does not exist.







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                          New BLT Research Website

From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:23:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:18:51 -0400
Subject: New BLT Research Website


BLT Research Team Inc. Website goes 'live'

Here at last, a new crop circle website with the work of Nancy
Talbott, William C. Levengood and company all neatly together in
one place.

http://www.bltresearch.com

Quick perusal suggests there is a balance to appeal to both lay-
people and boffins with quite a few new areas of intriguing
research.


Regards

Dave Haith








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                  Yellow/Gold Light/Sphere Near Camp David

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:57:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:24:34 -0400
Subject: Yellow/Gold Light/Sphere Near Camp David


At 1:40 AM, Monday, July 29 witness A.M. reported to this writer
that at 1:00 AM (approx) he saw a yellow/gold light with an
associated smaller light (color not described) traveling
northward and then turning westward over an area west of
Thurmont, MD in Frederick Country, Md.

Witness claims he seemed to discern a "pill" shaped body
associated with the light. Claims he heard a faint noise like a
"whooshing" or "swishing" sound after it passed by. Could see a
very faint light (not like the bright yellow/orange "headlight")
after the object went past and turned toward the northwest.
Initial sighting angle was about 30-40 degrees (more exact angle
to be determined). At closest seemed nearly overhead. Last seen
at a lower angle going over hill.

Night was clear but very hazy. Light seemed to be much lower
than lights of aircraft that overfly the region. This is
mountainous country so the light probably was above 2000' AMSL
(above mean sea level).

Note: this area is roughly 40 air miles from DC and about 2
miles north of Camp David.

And _today_ is the 50th anniversary of General Samford's
notorious press conference. If you haven't read

http://brumac.8k.com/1952yearofufo/1952yearofufo.html

yet, read it now, and think about what would have happened if
Samford had 'come clean'. (Talk about corporate 'corruption').

And note how history repeats itself: the AF tentative
explanation for Renny's sighting in Waldorf last Thursday night
is that he saw the afterburner exhaust of jets that seemed to be
following a streaking light. Last time I looked the afterburner
was _behind_ the front lights of the jet. and _definitely_
behind any object that could be in front of the jet.







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                 CCCRN News: Update - Pictogram Formation in

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:24:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:11:13 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Update - Pictogram Formation in


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

July 29, 2002

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2002


UPDATE -  PICTOGRAM FORMATION IN GEORGETOWN, ONTARIO

Some initial aerial and ground photos have been posted, courtesy
Clynt King, Julia Henderson (The Helicopter Company), Matt Rock
(CCCRN) and Mike Bird (CCCRN). The thumbnail diagram has also
been revised based on the aerial photos and further ground
measurements. See also Matt Rock's preliminary survey diagram
also posted. Up to around 92 metres (300 feet) long, exact
measurements still being finalized. Smallest bottom circle is
actually a ring with offset central circle, forming a standing
crescent shape, segmented by the joining pathway.

Please continue to use the temporary copy of the Crop Circles in
Canada 2002 page which has been placed here, until the main
CCCRN web site can be brought back online within the next few
days:

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject/circlescanada02.html


Crop Watch is an annual research project of CCCRN, including
field investigations and studies of formations, aerial
surveillance and awareness initiatives for farmers, the public
and the media, in particular during the prime August/September
'circle season' on the Canadian prairies

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:

psa@look.ca


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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                              Boeing & Gravity

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:19:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:19:05 -0400
Subject: Boeing & Gravity




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


Source: Guardian Unlimited

http://www.guardian.co.uk/netnotes/article/0,6729,765201,00.html

Boeing is researching the possibilities of "antigravity"
aircraft, inspired by the research of a controversial Russian
scientist who has been dismissed by some as crazy. Mark Oliver
weighs up the story, replete with links.


ebk







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                      Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:33:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:21:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case - Clark


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:29:38 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <UFOupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:17:12 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:50:22 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Island Case
 >>>>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:27:53 -0500

 >>>>As repeated statements make clear, there were many witnesses to
 >>>>the UFO's presence. Not a single statement from an investigating
 >>>>officer - or from a "witness" asserting that, all other
 >>>>testimony notwithstanding, no UFO appeared while he was in a
 >>>>position to view it - denies that. The witnesses, as we know
 >>>>from Navy documents, were in two groups, one at the front and
 >>>>the other at the rear of the ship.

 >>>Of course, if no other witness was in a position to view it, why
 >>>would they want to deny it?

 >>Is this supposed to mean something?

 >Yes. Endlessly we are told that there were many witnesses to
 >this case.

Yes, we are endlessly told that by investigators from the
Brazilian Navy. Nowhere in the official records of the case -
  which exist in English translation and have been published in
the UFO literature - is there a single statement to the
contrary. From more than four decades and thousands of miles
away, you want us to believe that we should pay attention to
you, not to those who were there at the time.

 >Yet we never get any names other than those of three
 >people who were friends of Barauna. Of these three people, one
 >gives and unambiguous statement that he saw the UFO that Barauna
 >photographed. One give a more equivocal staement. One is not
 >heard from. None of the numerous other alleged witnesse are
 >quoted or named. You seem to think this is not significant. I
 >think it is significant.

There is nothing ambiguous about any witness statement.* This is
simply rank nonsense, of the sort one would expect from a Menzel
or a Klass - and apparently, now, from a Rimmer. Investigating
authorities state repeatedly that there were many witnesses, in
two groups, and that they saw what Barauna photographed. Not a
shred of evidence has emerged that Barauna faked the pictures or
even that he was a liar; yet we are repeatedly treated to smarmy
innuendo that people are not to be trusted because they knew
Barauna, as if the man were known to be unsavory. This is the
sort of sleight of hand one associates with professional
character assassins, or pelicanists.

Nor has anyone provided a credible account of _how_ the photos
could have been faked, or even why Barauna would have wanted to
do so, or how he got away with a hoax that would have been
extremely simple to disprove. We have also seen the canard
floated, again with zero evidence, that Barauna was a serial
hoaxer. Barauna's real crime, it appears, was in producing
evidence of something that you very much want not to believe
exists.

If this case were a hoax, it would be child's play to expose it.
  All it would take was negative testimony from witnesses, which
could have been collected on the spot or very soon thereafter.
  Or could have emerged in subsequent days, weeks, months, or
even years as discussion of this sensational incident continued.
  Or in photoanalysis showing the object to have been a model.
  None of these things have happened.  If the Trindade sighting
and photos are a hoax, they are the most remarkable in history,
since they have stood for decades without the emergence of a
_single item_ of negative evidence.

Again, all the evidence collected, according to Brazilian Navy
investigators, produced only testimony affirming the presence of
the UFO in the photograph. You have not laid a glove on these
facts, John. All you have done is find holes and fill them with
evidence-untainted inunendo and speculation. When you have
something more - which I'm sure you never will have, since in
the 44+ years since this remarkable case occurred no one else
has, either, despite fevered effort - let us know.

Quite a number of posts ago, I tried to find some common ground
with you so that we could drop this and resume our lives. You
refused to do that, and I have spent fruitless time trying to
reason with you, trying to point out that you have exactly no
evidence, only speculation and innuendo which fly in the face of
everything investigators at the scene determined about the
sighting and the UFO photos. They were there, and you weren't,
and their conclusions about what happened contradict yours in
every particular. In my judgment, any reasonable observer will
know whom to believe.

Meantime, I am ending participation in this discussion and plan
not even to read further posts on this thread, lest I be tempted
to respond to them, even knowing that you are taking us nowhere
except to endless recycling of nothing arguments.


Jerry Clark

*Note to listfolk: John wants us to believe this statement (from
eyewitness Amilar Vieira Filho) is "ambiguous":

"What I saw, in fact, was an object of gray color and oval in
shape when first sighted, which passed over the island and then
-- emitting a fluorescent light it didn't possess before - went
away toward the horizon and was gone, vanishing just on the
horizon line. Everything happened in just a few seconds, in more
than 20 seconds, and for this reason I cannot give you more
details about this curious craft. It looked like an object with
polished surface and uniform color. I am sure it was not a
balloon, an airplane, or a seagull."

Maybe John wants us to believe it was a pelican.








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                     Terrace, British Columbia Sighting

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:20:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:32:12 -0400
Subject: Terrace, British Columbia Sighting


Terrace, British Columbia

Date: July 27, 2002
Time: 00:25 a.m.

Investigators Note: The witness also attached a diagram of what
he seen, and the location to surrounding land marks. He did a
good job on providing good information.

Hello there Brian Vike, I am a 17 year old Terrace youth, my
name is (name deleted by HBCC UFO). Before I discuss the  odd
event,I must tell you a few things about myself- I'm an open
minded artistic soul who has strong belief in science and have
always pondered how fantastic it would be if beings from other
parts of our universe would pay earth a visit. Although I always
believed there had to be other life out there, I was never truly
convinced that they had made contact with earth and its
inhabitants until 2 nights ago, when I saw one the most
unbelievable, life changing things of my life.

It was 12:25 am July 27 2002, when I discovered there was a
moving light in the sky(southwest of terrace-towards
Prince.Rupert at high elevation)). At first I thought it was
probably a plane because of the light movement. But as the
object began moving further east and higher up into the sky (yet
closer in view) I began to realize it was in fact a cigar /maybe
pancake? shaped object with a flickering bright light moving
around the side. I still wasn't completely convinced until I
noticed how eerily alien its maneuvers were. I am not a stupid
person, that was not natural, not human technology, and unlike
anything I had ever seen before. About 2 and half minutes after
I had first seen it, it moved from a horizontal position to a
diagonal position, but continued to slowly move in the sky
frozen in the diagonal position. The light was still running up
the side. Since I was walking home at the time on Lanfear road
towards Lanfear hill, I lost track of the object once I headed
up the trail. But the last minute or so that I saw it, it began
moving northwest, and its elevation began dropping , then I lost
sight because trees on the trail obstructed my view.  I would
sincerely appreciate any feedback/advise to help me with this
incredibly life changing experience. Thank you for your time, I
hope you can make good use of this new information.

P.S. I attached a scan of the original rough details I jotted
down the moment I got home



Brian Vike
HBCC UFO Research
Editor: Canadian Communicator








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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:44:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:33:47 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:50:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >I don't see how the whitish, needle-like projection of flame,
 >small in proportion to the aircraft itself, would be mistaken
 >for a light blue object.  I'm no authority on jet aircraft, so I
 >could be wrong. But what this Maj. Snyder said sounds more to me
 >like an off-the-cuff and not very well thought out speculation
 >in response to questions for which he really had no answers to
 >give. His comment that "people see what they want to see"
 >suggests a certain amount of irritation on his part at having to
 >answer any questions at all.

I think your comments regarding Maj. Snyder's remarks are
probably pretty accurate.  I would assume that this was a PR
person who was used to dealing with numerous questions from the
public and press, and anyone who has done that for any length of
time knows that there are generic responses that are used
whenever possible.  If the questions get to speculative or
specific, then he merely has to state that he doesn't know and
that the information isn't reflected in the file.  The comment
that "people see what they want to see" is somewhat valid, in
that everyone will try to interpret what they see using their
own frame of reference.  Once again, that's a generic phrase
that is probably used quite a bit by NORAD to deflect questions.
  That doesn't make it a conspiracy, but certainly qualifies it
as a bureacracy.

Just as a speculation: What if the first pursuit plane was well
out in front of the other jets in the group.  By the time
witnesses got outside (remember this was about 2:00am) the first
jet was out in the distance and they were now able to see the
following jets chasing what appeared to be a ball of light in
the distance.  It's unlikely that the dark shape of the jet
could be seen at a distance, but the flames from his exaust
would be visible (although certainly not blue in color).

Efforts are underway to interview all of the pertinent
individuals in this, and a report will be released after it has
been prepared.

Steve







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                          Secrecy News -- 07/29/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:55:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:50:58 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/29/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 68
July 29, 2002


**      HOUSE DEBATE ON FOIA AND HOMELAND SECURITY
**      ASHCROFT, FISA AND THE CONSTITUTION
**      JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RESOURCES ON FOIA
**      CHURCH COMMITTEE REPORTS ONLINE
**      CIA OFFICIAL URGES "WHATEVER IT TAKES" TO STOP LEAKS


HOUSE DEBATE ON FOIA AND HOMELAND SECURITY

An amendment to eliminate a proposed exemption from the Freedom
of Information Act for certain information that is submitted by
private industry to the Department of Homeland Security was
defeated in the House of Representatives on July 26, following
some intense rhetorical jousting.

The amendment, offered by Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL), was needed
in order to "prevent the Department of Homeland Security from
becoming the Department of Homeland Secrecy," she said.

Proponents of the FOIA exemption argued that it was "very
narrowly tailored," and was needed "to enhance the safety of the
American people."

The amendment to eliminate the exemption was defeated by a vote
of 188-240.  See the July 26 House debate on the measure here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/h072602.html


ASHCROFT, FISA AND THE CONSTITUTION

Confounding familiar stereotypes, members of the Senate
Judiciary Committee last week said the Department of Justice had
set "too high a standard" for approving surveillance under the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and needed to be
more aggressive.  But Attorney General Ashcroft demurred, saying
his hands were tied by the U.S. Constitution.

"The committee is considering the standards for issuance of
warrants under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act," Sen.
Arlen Specter informed the Attorney General at a Judiciary
Committee hearing on July 25.  "This is something which I think
you ought to look at, Attorney General Ashcroft, because I
believe that the FBI, and in turn the Department of Justice, are
not imposing the appropriate standard.  They've got too high a
standard."

"The Constitution provides that no warrant shall issue absent
probable cause," Attorney General Ashcroft replied.  "That's
been our sticking point."

Nevertheless, the Attorney General continued, "We'll be happy to
work with you because we want to make sure we're doing what we
can to make available every investigational tool to curtail
terrorism."

See the July 25 exchange on FISA here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/07/ash-fisa.html

Copies of the prepared statements from the July 25 hearing on
Oversight of the Department of Justice are available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/index.html#doj


JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RESOURCES ON FOIA

The Department of Justice's Freedom of Information Act Guide,
last updated in May 2002, was posted online earlier this month
on the Justice web site.

The Guide provides an authoritative review of the workings of
the FOIA along with a detailed explication of how each of the
Act's exemptions has evolved through judicial interpretation,
providing abundant citations to the case law.  It will be of use
to requesters and litigators seeking to craft arguments for
disclosure, or needing to understand the government's arguments
in opposition.

The Justice Department has also recently posted updated versions
of its Privacy Act Overview and its Freedom of Information Case
List.

All of these documents are available here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/04_7.html


CHURCH COMMITTEE REPORTS ONLINE

Volumes 2 and 3 of the landmark 1976 report of the Church
Committee -- formally known as the U.S. Senate Select Committee
to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence
Activities -- have recently been posted online.

Both volumes, which generally address domestic surveillance and
civil liberties, have long been out of print.  They have made
newly available, along with related materials, by researcher
Paul Wolf on his web site here:

http://www.cointel.org


CIA OFFICIAL URGES "WHATEVER IT TAKES" TO STOP LEAKS

"We've got to do whatever it takes -- if it takes sending SWAT
teams into journalists' homes -- to stop these leaks," said CIA
official James B. Bruce in a speech last week.

Mr. Bruce's extravagant remarks, which are not official policy,
illustrate one extreme of the highly polarized debate over
unauthorized disclosures of classified information.

See "CIA Expert: Leaks of Classified Information Must Stop," by
Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com, July 27:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/26/180942.shtml


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:40:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:52:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again - Speiser


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:59:14 -0400
 >Subject: Lights Over Argentine Lagoon Again

 >SOURCE: El Fuerte (newspaper), Chascomus, Argentina
 >DATE: July 27, 2002

 >BREAKING NEWS

 >Seen by several residents
 >Luces extra=F1as sobre la laguna
 >(Image obtained at the laggon by EL FUERTE)

 >A couple that was driving along last night at around 21:00 hours
 >from the SETIA campground toward the city along the peripheral
 >road witnessed a large, sky-blue light moving over the lagoon,
 >changing color and size as it did so

<snip>


Is Sirius visible over the Southern Hemisphere
these days?

=3D=3DJJS=3D=3D







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                   Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:51:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Speiser


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:50:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:49:39 -0700
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>This is forwarded to UFO UpDates for any added comment from the
 >>List, it is in response to remarks from a post on CURRENT
 >>ENCOUNTERS.

 >>For some reason I simply cannot buy the explanation that the
 >>witnesses were observing the blue flame of a jet afterburner
 >>(which should be *behind* the plane at all times!).

 >Neither can I. One reason is that it seems strange that military
 >fighter jets would have to turn on afterburners in pursuit of a
 >slower private plane. Aren't afterburners used only when extra
 >thrust is needed for take-off or for high-speed operation?

 >Another thing is that the afterburner exhaust of an F-16 doesn't
 >appear to be blue at all. At least it isn't in this picture:

 >http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Mar1998/980311-F-4116M-009.html

 >I don't see how the whitish, needle-like projection of flame,
 >small in proportion to the aircraft itself, would be mistaken
 >for a light blue object. I'm no authority on jet aircraft, so I
 >could be wrong. But what this Maj. Snyder said sounds more to me
 >like an off-the-cuff and not very well thought out speculation
 >in response to questions for which he really had no answers to
 >give. His comment that "people see what they want to see"
 >suggests a certain amount of irritation on his part at having to
 >answer any questions at all.

I too thought of afterburners (which CAN appear arc-welder blue)
and rejected it for the reasons cited - no way the world's
fastest jet fighter would have to use them in pursuit of a light
aircraft. Of course, if it WASN'T a light aircraft...

By the way, I _hate_ the expression People See What They Want To
See. Reason being, I tried it and it doesn't work. I _want_ to
see 20 million dollars in my bank account right now! Alas, no
dice....

==JJS==








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:56:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:58:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


<snip>

 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case


 >The Travis Walton case is a strange and complex one, and no
 >explanation - hoax, misinterpretaion, actual ET abduction -
 >seems to fit all the facts as reported. Unlike the Trindade
 >island case we actually have statements from *all* the people
 >involved, and they were all spoken to by investigators.

 >Unfortunately they did not all see the actual abduction, but
 >they all saw enough to suggest that *something* happened.

 >No, I don't think that T.W. had an encounter with some sort of
 >beings, but this belief is based on my opinion of the
 >collectivity of UFO cases, rather than on evidence from this one
 >case.

 >If you put me against a wall with a gun to my head, I would
 >probably say "hoax", but before Jerry jumps on me again, I
 >emphasise that this is a suspicion rather than a deduction, and
 >I have no idea who might have been hoaxing who, why, or how, and
 >I am always ready to consider further evidence.

 >To quote the title of a popular British radio show: "I'm sorry,
 >I haven't a clue!"

My deepest apologies, John, I thought you were being facetious,
whereas your remarks are actually right on the money; except
that I don't think it's a hoax - at least not the earthly part.
It just sounded to me at first read that you were accepting
Travis' story unquestioned.


Now what to do about my keyboard...

==JJS==






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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:42:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:59:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:04:56 -0500

 >Now, if you want to believe that misperception of this radical
 >magnitude occurs, fine. But you can't at the same time get your
 >nose out of joint when I point out the obvious: that you
 >routinely reject as inaccurate eyewitness testimony in
 >extraordinary, high-strangeness UFO cases.

Jerry,

The funny thing is, of course, that Brad Sparks' analysis of the
Condon report shows that most witnesses were in fact very
accurate in their testimony:

It seems the figures argue against Bob's proposition, showing
that confabulation to the extent Bob has described is hardly the
norm he claims it to be:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m11-030.shtml


Best,

Jean









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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:53:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:01:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

[Jerry asked:]

 >>>>In which unexplained, highly anomalous UFO cases do you
 >>>>accept the testimony of witnesses as accurate and, moreover,
 >>>>indicative of something decidedly out of the ordinary?

[John responded:]

 >>>Travis Walton

[John then adds:]

 >Unfortunately they did not all see the actual abduction, but
 >they all saw enough to suggest that *something* happened.

 >No, I don't think that T.W. had an encounter with some sort of
 >beings, but this belief is based on my opinion of the
 >collectivity of UFO cases, rather than on evidence from this one
 >case.

 >If you put me against a wall with a gun to my head, I would
 >probably say "hoax", but before Jerry jumps on me again, I
 >emphasise that this is a suspicion rather than a deduction, and
 >I have no idea who might have been hoaxing who, why, or how, and
 >I am always ready to consider further evidence.

Uhm, doesn't this strike anyone as odd?

I think one can honestly say that in most if not all UFO cases
there is enough to suggest that "something" happened, which of
course includes the possibility of a prosaic cause or not (to
wit, you're including the hoax possibility as a potential
explanation here).

Quite frankly, I don't think Jerry (nor anyone other sane
person) would consider this possibility an example of a "highly
anomalous UFO case" where something happened "out of the
ordinary" if you're already putting forth the hoax hypothesis as
your gut feeling.

In short, Jerry is right. You can't provide an example of an
unexplained anomalous UFO case where you accept the testimony as
accurate and consider it indicative of an extraordinary event.


Cheers,

Jean









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                    Review: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:53:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:03:17 -0400
Subject: Review: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters


Y'all,

Proof that (despite the fevered imaginagings of Philip Mantle)
good UFO documentaries can be made.

The Daily Telegraph (London), 25 July 2002
www.telegraph.co.uk

LAST NIGHT ON TELEVISION
by Gerard O'Donovan

Speaking of paranoia, it's said the internet has more websites
devoted UFOs and alien encounters than anything else. Similarly,
the extraterrestrial realms of cable and digital television are
a haven for such material. Most of it is entirely spurious but
an occasional goody appears, such as Britain's Secret UFO
Hunters (Discovery) which presented the findings of two
historians who'd been investigating rumours that the MoD set up
a top-secret UFO- monitoring unit in Whitehall in the 1950s.

For two years Andy Roberts and Dr David Clarke trawled through
formerly top-secret files released under the Freedom of
Information Act, and found plenty of evidence that a government
report had been prepared in 1951 by the 'Flying Saucer Working
Party' and that a UFO investigation unit had worked out of the
supposedly mysterious Room 801 in the Marlborough Buildings in
London. They also unearthed a wonderful memo from Churchill to
Lord Cherwell asking: 'What does all this stuff about flying
saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?'

Unfortunately there was no sign of a reply. According to the
records, the MoD unit discontinued all the sightings they
investigated. Unsurprisingly, witnesses interviewed for the
programme remained convinced of what they saw. The refreshingly
sceptical Roberts and Clarke simply pointed out the correlation
between the Cold War and the UFO phenomenon: how the first
reported sighting wasn't until 1947, how flying saucer fever
gripped Britain and America in the Fifties (some of the more
outlandish manifestations shown were truly nutty) and continued
to flare up regularly throughout the Sixties and Seventies. One
of the more telling revelations was that in the decade since the
collapse of Communism, UFO sightings have dropped off
dramatically. Coincidence?  Well, maybe. Some of us might put it
down to the vast numbers of people bored to death by the
X-Files.








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              Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:58:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:04:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Warren


Hello All,

FYI:

Although it hasn't come up yet, I thought I might add a little
more info to the kitty. The planes that were capable of being
launched from a Japanese submarine were called GLEN's which
apparently was the allied code name for said aircraft. The GLEN
was a reconnaissance floatplane launched by catapult from the
submarine. On September 9, 1942, a Yokosuka E14Y1 GLEN was
rigged with bombs, and dropped it's payload on the Oregon coast.

The fuselage and upper wings surfaces of the Glen were painted
dark camouflage green while the underneath surfaces were painted
dark grey. The sides of the fuselage featured a large red Rising
Sun Japanese symbol.

A drawing of a GLEN can be seen here:

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/japrecce/glen.htm

I think we can agree that the image from the BOLA pic does not
resemble the GLEN aircraft in any way.


Regards,

Frank Warren








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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:06:18 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young


 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:49:39 -0700
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >It was somewhat unsettling to hear Maj. Snyder suggest that some
 >of the radar data concerning a simultaneous track of the F-16's
 >and the 'object' may not be releasable due to 'operational
 >policy.' I can't fathom why this particular information would be
 >withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
 >either.

Kenny:

You can't?  During wartime, why would anyone want to reveal info
about tracking unkown aircraft near the Nation's Capitol?  Beggin'
your usually sensible, down-to-Earth pardon, but are you serious?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:07:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:09:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:56:59 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >The Travis Walton case is a strange and complex one, and no
 >explanation - hoax, misinterpretaion, actual ET abduction -
 >seems to fit all the facts as reported. Unlike the Trindade
 >island case we actually have statements from *all* the people
 >involved, and they were all spoken to by investigators.

 >Unfortunately they did not all see the actual abduction, but
 >they all saw enough to suggest that *something* happened.

 >No, I don't think that T.W. had an encounter with some sort of
 >beings, but this belief is based on my opinion of the
 >collectivity of UFO cases, rather than on evidence from this one
 >case.

Do you think its reasonable to not examine the evidence from a
particular case and instead base analysis on a collective
collection of cases?

 >If you put me against a wall with a gun to my head, I would
 >probably say "hoax", but before Jerry jumps on me again, I
 >emphasise that this is a suspicion rather than a deduction, and
 >I have no idea who might have been hoaxing who, why, or how, and
 >I am always ready to consider further evidence.

What specific information have you seen to make you suspicious
that it is a hoax or that somebody other then TW and the crew
hoaxed it?

Personally I have not been a big fan of the initial so-called
lie detector test results (that allegedly show him lying)
because I have spoken to examiners who told me (concerning non
UFO) that if the subject is distraught/upset/had some kind of
tramautic experience that generally taints the test results and
you shouldn't rely upon them.

As I recall a skeptic paid for a bunch of polygraph tests later
on and Travis and his crew all passed with flying colors.


Cheers,

Robert








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:04:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:40:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:05:33 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Jerry:

 >Don't look now, but I think he's yanking your chain. Even _I_
 >don't necessarily accept Travis' account as accurate (or
 >truthful for that matter). I can't render an opinion one way or
 >the other on that part of the incident, but it's a sure bet that
 >John is being facetious - at the expense of my keyboard.

 >==JJS==

Yank jerry's chain? Moi? For some of magonia magazine's views on
the travis Walto case as a hoax, go to

http//www. magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/ethbindex.html

then check out Bulletins no. 2, 3, 7, 9 and 21. Sorry about your
keyboard.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                         BBC On Bonnybridge Skywatch

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 01:25:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:41:52 -0400
Subject: BBC On Bonnybridge Skywatch


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/scotland/2155952.stm

Stig

***

Sunday, 28 July, 2002, 08:45 GMT 09:45 UK

UFO fans look to the skies

**

UFO enthusiasts have gathered in Scotland to share their
experiences and look skyward.

Members of Strange Phenomena Investigations (SPI) staged a
"skywatch" in Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, which has been dubbed
world UFO capital because of the number of reported sightings
there.

The event follows a survey which said that Scotland has the
highest concentration of UFO sightings of any country in the
world.

SPI representatives organised a public meeting which was held in
Bonnybridge's Royal Hotel on Saturday evening.

They then took to the hills above the village to watch out for
strange happenings in the sky.

Local councillor Billy Buchanan, who has campaigned for a
visitors' centre for enthusiasts, said he was pleased with the
event.

He said: "We're finally on the map, we've gained credibility and
rightly so."

A study by national tourist body VisitScotland said that
Scotland topped the UFO sightings league.

The results were published to coincide with International UFO
Day and referred to 300 reported sightings in Scotland a year -
  higher than anywhere else.

Scotland also recorded the highest number of UFO sightings per
head of population, the study said.

**

=A9 MMII








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                    Rare Earth Debate Part 5: Elusive ET

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 01:35:31 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:43:24 -0400
Subject: Rare Earth Debate Part 5: Elusive ET


Source: SPACE.com

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/rare_earth_5_020729.html

Go to the page for links to the other parts of the Rare Earth
debate!

Stig

***

Rare Earth Debate Part 5: Elusive ET
posted: 07:00 am ET
29 July 2002

**

This five-part debate has covered a variety of topics prompted
by the hypothesis of "Rare Earth," a book by Peter Ward and
Donald Brownlee that suggests complex life may be unique to
Earth.

In Part 4, the participants discussed whether all life, here or
anywhere, is ultimately doomed by the fact that stars swell and
then die. Today in the final installment they examine why we
haven=92t found complex intelligent life, if indeed it does exist
elsewhere in the universe. A thread of this debate also picks up
on a comment made by Donald Brownlee in Part 4 -- that
interstellar space travel may be impossible. The moderator is
Michael Meyer, the NASA senior scientist for astrobiology.

------

Michael Meyer: If there is intelligent life out there, why
haven=92t we found them yet?

Chris McKay: This is Fermi's paradox: Where are they? Or phrased
differently: why aren't signs of galactic-scale intelligent life
obvious in our telescopes? The simplest explanation for this is
that we are the only, or at least the first, intelligent species
in the galaxy.

Can anyone give a good argument for why our type of civilization
would not be obvious over much of the galaxy after a million
years?

David Grinspoon: If civilizations like ours were all over the
galaxy, it would not be obvious. We are only listening, not
broadcasting. We are not doing astroengineering.

True, we are leaking sitcoms and beer commercials, but these are
not easily detectable over most of the galaxy and certainly
would not be interpreted as signs of true intelligence.

So, in order to have an obvious presence, "our type of
civilization" must become something quite different. Perhaps
this is very rare or difficult. However, being a constitutional
optimist, and considering the unimaginably vast reaches of time
and space, I tend to think that sentient, long-lived
civilizations should be out there somewhere. So, where are they?

The reasoning behind Chris's (and Fermi's) question implicitly
assumes certain things about the behavior of advanced
civilizations. It assumes they will keep expanding their
populations and increasing the size of their civil engineering
projects. Looking at the history of our civilization and
extrapolating to our future, I understand why you could draw
such a conclusion.

But it may be that truly sentient societies realize there is no
future in unlimited expansion. We cannot keep expanding our
population at our current rate. Even if we were somehow able to
move out into space at the speed of light and colonize all
available planets, we would still run out of space and resources
and experience mass starvation within a thousand years. True
minds will realize that such expansion is a dead end.

Of course, the problem with this kind of explanation for "the
great silence" (Fermi's paradox) is that it must apply to every
single civilization out there. It is hard to believe that every
society that ever forms will transform themselves into
sustainably living, granola munching, navel staring,
contemplative Buddhists before creating some observable signs of
their presence. So, we must search for another answer.

Frank Drake: A parallel question to this is: how long will the
Earth=92s technology be detectable? A few decades ago we thought
the visibility would last a long time -- ever more powerful TV
stations and radar installations were being built, and these are
the strongest signs of our existence.

But there is only so much bandwidth in the useful
electromagnetic spectrum. To transmit ever-increasing amounts of
information, portions of the spectrum must be shared. This is
only possible if signal strengths are reduced so that
transmissions on the same frequency do not interfere with one
another. The textbook example of this paradigm is the cellular
phone system. This signal reduction means we are well on our way
to becoming invisible.

So if the transmission of a rich cornucopia of information is
what advanced civilizations do, they may become invisible. This
is a rather counter-intuitive result, but a real one. This means
that the detectable lifetimes of civilizations may be shorter
than we have estimated, and hoped, alas.

David Grinspoon: Another possibility is that they may not want
us to know they are there. It=92s hard for us to fathom the
possible motivations and behaviors of societies millions of
years older than ours. It seems reasonable, however, to suppose
that the differences between their capabilities and ours will be
so great that it will be up to them, not us, how and when some
kind of detection or contact is made.

It is possible that they have decided it should be against the
law to let us know they are there (The "Zoo Hypothesis" or the
"Prime Directive"). This might be because they are protecting
us, studying us, protecting themselves from us or what we might
someday become, or waiting until the time is right to initiate
us into the Galactic Club.

The simplest explanation -- that we are the only, or the at
least first, intelligent species in the galaxy -- requires an
extreme violation of the Copernican Principle (which says the
Earth is typical and common). This is especially true when you
consider the generations of stars -- with possible habitable
planets -- that lived for billions of years before our star and
planet were even a twinkle in the eye in our parent molecular
cloud. There has been so much time for someone to come along and
achieve intelligence. Why should our present time be so special?
It comes down to which unjustified pillar of scientific
reasoning you prefer to violate: Occam's Razor (things are
simple) or the Copernican Principle (our place is not special).
Take your pick.

Frank Drake: Every discussion of alien intelligence assumes that
they will come visit us. But the expense and danger of space
travel are formidable. A strong reason why such enterprises are
not carried out may be that radio communication works so much
better, is far cheaper, and you get your answers at the speed of
light.

Any reasonable transport of creatures across space calls for
travel speeds that are a substantial fraction of the speed of
light, otherwise it takes too long to go even to the nearest
stars. But this exposes the spacecraft to serious hazards.
Probably the most serious is the potential for collision with
debris -- and we are learning that space is full of debris.

At relativistic speeds [approaching the speed of light], even a
collision with a particle of a few grams results in something
close in energy to a nuclear bomb blast. Not good news for the
space travelers.

Also the energy requirements are ridiculous, at least to us. To
send a spacecraft the size of a small airliner at one-tenth the
speed of light requires as much energy as the U.S. now produces
in more than a hundred years. And that just gets you someplace -
- it doesn't provide for a landing or a return home.

To put it another way, it takes 10 million times as much energy
to move a small space colony to another star as it takes to
establish the same colony in the home system. And there is
plenty of room at home. It is easily calculated that the energy
of the Sun is enough to sustain more than ten thousand billion
billion humans. That seems like enough. Why go to the great
expense and danger of going to other stars? Truly intelligent
life would laugh at the idea. The only ones who might try are
the dumb ones, and they don't know how.

David Grinspoon: I agree that, given the time and energy
constraints, any intelligent creatures would have to be nuts to
attempt interstellar travel. But you would also have to be nuts
to attempt to cross the ocean in a rowboat, and people have done
that.

Why do we need to go one-tenth the speed of light? What=92s the
hurry? So what if travel times are thousands of years? From the
perspective of an individual human life at this stage in our
evolution, this seems like a long time. But will the galaxy
never, ever, anywhere, produce a creature or cultural entity
that doesn=92t find this span of time daunting? Even at these slow
speeds, if someone decided to start spreading across the galaxy
they would be able to spread across the whole Milky Way in a few
hundred million years, tops, which is still short compared to
the life of the galaxy.

I also agree that radio communication makes much more sense than
any form of interstellar travel for almost any purpose. Except
it=92s still more fun to go to the game than watch it on TV. I
doubt we'll ever achieve warp drive or anything that makes
interstellar travel so much faster, better, and cheaper that we
can visit a new star system with shapely natives every week like
Captain Kirk.

Still, isn't it extreme to declare that no one will ever travel
the interstellar distances?

Donald Brownlee: I have always loved space travel in science
fiction, but I take a very dim view of the likelihood that we
will be able to send people more than just a short distance
away. I know that a future without interstellar travel is a
minority view, but it is not at all clear that technology could
be developed to transport living humans to habitable places
beyond our solar system.

I think that it is odd that so many people are sure that we will
inevitably evolve to a Star Trek society, able to zip across the
Galaxy like we drive to the next state. Beaming up and all that
stuff seems so easy on TV. Our best bet with foreseeable
technology is to use antimatter fuel, but even if we could build
the hardware it would take all of our planet=92s energy production
for over a century just to make the fuel. Besides, there are
additional problems in technology, funding, and human
organization. New discoveries involving navigation and
maneuvering are required to get to other earthly oases in space
on a comfortable and timely basis.

Can all the UFOers really be wrong? Time will surely tell.

David Grinspoon: As many brilliant thinkers have pointed out, if
a civilization survives to a certain point they could easily
become immortal. That is, if they learn how to avoid asteroids
and other natural disasters, tame any self- destructive
instincts and learn to live sustainably, their lifetime
effectively becomes the lifetime of the universe.

Yes, I know there are nasty things like gamma ray bursts and
other hazards we haven't even discovered yet, but we are talking
about technology and an understanding of nature, and of self-
  understanding, that are many millions of years beyond our own.
Migrating between stars to stay alive will not be a hurdle for
these "old ones." Comparing this idea to Star Trek or UFOs is a
cheap shot that ignores the serious literature on this topic.

If you don't insist on making the trip within the current human
life span, there are no huge technical hurdles.

Donald Brownlee: I am sorry that David considered my previous
comments about Star Trek and UFOs to be a cheap shot, but I
really do believe that the difficulty of practical interstellar
travel is horrendously underestimated. In my opinion, the public
is being bilked by wishful thinkers that like to write books and
muse about futures that we would like to believe are our logical
destinies.

Perhaps I take too much of a hard-nosed and practical view of
this, but doing even simple things in space is difficult,
unforgiving, and exceedingly expensive.

I am aware of the studies of anti-matter rockets, beamed energy,
interstellar ram jets, etc., but all of these ideas have severe
problems. As I see it, known physics will never deposit living
people on Earth-like planets around other stars. Doing so would
require "warp speed" and/or harnessing exotic phenomena such as
wormholes or zero-point energy. Unless such radical developments
occur, mundane ideas such as anti-matter rockets will not do the
job.

We have gone to the Moon, we can go to Mars, but that is likely
to be the limit that our resources and foreseeable technology
will allow. At our current rate of progress, humans may not even
make it beyond the International Space Station. Our bounds in
space may be as limited as they are on Earth. We have covered
the Earth but it seems highly unlikely that we will ever live
more than a kilometer above or a few kilometers beneath its
surface.

The suggestion that organisms could easily become immortal if
they live long enough is intriguing. There are a number of
issues here, including whether "immortal" means "relatively
immortal" or "actually immortal." Forever is a very long time --
  I suggest that nothing physical can ever be immortal. Infinite
time is something that the universe cannot keep up with unless
things like child universes pop up from time to time to refresh
the landscape. If things aren=92t miraculously refreshed, the
universe just runs down over long time scales.

According to new information, the expansion of the universe has
accelerated. Lawrence Krauss of Case Western University says
that an accelerating universe "would be the worst possible
universe, both for the quality and quantity of life=85 All our
knowledge, civilization, and culture are destined to be
forgotten. There's no long-term future." A most bleak forecast
and at the totally opposite end of the spectrum from predictions
of immortal beings.

David Grinspoon: I define "immortal" as lasting for the rest of
the life of the universe, which may not be "really immortal" but
may have to do.

If we accept the idea that some civilizations can solve the
problems which threaten their survival, attain peace, stability,
control their populations, learn to intelligently engineer their
solar systems, etc., then "immortality" happens. By definition
it is an irreversible transition, so the immortals must slowly
be accumulating. None of us know, but my sense is that the
universe is bio-friendly. I doubt there are any other planets
with a peculiar history and biosphere closely resembling
Earth=92s, but I predict many, many inhabited worlds, and a large
number with intelligence far in advance of anything we can even
conceive of.

Don't you love predictions like this? It cannot be proven wrong!

**

=A9 2002 SPACE.com, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.








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                   AP On The National UFO Reporting Center

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:06:24 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:44:37 -0400
Subject: AP On The National UFO Reporting Center


Source: Seattle Post-Intelligencer

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/80375_ufo29.shtml

Stig

***

Apartment near UW is a UFO clearinghouse

Monday, July 29, 2002

By LUIS CABRERA
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

**

In Freehold, N.J., a woman reports seeing an enormous craft
"right out of ET" hover in the night sky for several minutes
before it glided away over a wooded area.

A Michigan woman writes of being trailed in her car for two
hours, from Kalamazoo to Muskegon, by a flying object covered in
colored lights.

Near Yuma, Ariz., a group of boaters on the Colorado River
reports seeing three bright, disc-shaped objects that are joined
by two others before all streak off to the north.

Proof that we are not alone?

Almost certainly, says Peter Davenport, a former biotech
executive and self- described "alien hunter" who has posted
those and 1,124 other sightings this year on the Web site of the
Seattle-based National UFO Reporting Center: www.ufocenter.com

"The evidence suggests to me that they are here on a daily
basis," said Davenport, 54, who has run the 28-year-old center
since 1994.

Davenport took over the center when its former director retired.
Assisted by a handful of volunteers, he works "8 a.m. to
midnight, seven days a week" from an office in his modest, two-
bedroom apartment near the University of Washington.

Davenport acknowledges there's no smoking-gun proof that aliens
are among us -- no seized flying saucers or unearthly skeletons
on display. But he says evidence, from UFO sightings to
investigations by fellow "UFOlogists" into reported close
encounters, animal mutilations and possible alien artifacts, is
mounting.

"I will not be surprised if, in the final analysis, we discover
that we live in a galaxy that is teeming with intelligent life,"
and that much of that life has been racking up frequent flier
miles to Earth, he said.

Whether or not Davenport is proved right, the center's Web site
is clear proof of one thing -- thousands of ordinary people are
interested in the subject.

"Actually, it's amazing to me how many people also have seen
things or had (UFO) experiences in the past," said Susan Nelson,
46, a North Seattle homemaker and mother of two who said she
never thought much about UFOs until she spotted one two years
ago.

The UFO center doesn't usually disclose the names of spotters,
but Nelson agreed to be interviewed. She said she was outside
her home at about 10 p.m. on April 28, 2000, when she saw a
"really large, bright, solid white object" race through the
space between some trees.

After chewing over what she had seen for a few days, Nelson did
an Internet search, found Davenport's site, and learned through
him that others had seen the same object in Western Washington
and British Columbia.

It was a relief, she said, to find she wasn't the only one.

The Internet has helped create a virtual community of UFO
spotters, Davenport said. It also has led to a boom in reports
for the center, since spotters can easily find it on the Web and
no longer need to pay long-distance charges to make a hot line
report.

However, some UFO skeptics are unimpressed by the high volume.

Barry Beyerstein, a brain researcher at Simon Fraser University
in suburban Vancouver, B.C., believes that even those giving the
most meticulous UFO descriptions are probably just fooling
themselves.

"Perception is a very creative act," he said. "There's ample
room for our brains to fill in more than is actually there."

Beyerstein, who is on the executive council of the highly
skeptical Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims for
the Paranormal, noted some incidents cited by researchers where
witnesses gave wildly inaccurate descriptions of hoax UFOs.

Other scientists are more open to extraterrestrial
possibilities.

"I think there's some pretty good evidence that something is
going on," said Bernard Haisch, an astronomer and director of
the California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics in Palo
Alto, south of San Francisco.

"I know most of my colleagues are pretty dismissive of the
topic, but the more you learn about it, the less dismissive you
can be," he said.

Haisch, who edits a leading astronomy journal and has published
more than 100 scientific articles, has created a Web site aimed
at presenting an objective look at UFO issues:
www.ufoskeptic.org

Davenport's UFO Reporting Center posts its accounts in
eyewitnesses' own words, including their often quirky grammar
and spelling.

The site catalogs thousands of sightings, most from the last 10
years but dating to 1860, when circuit preacher William Killian
wrote of a fireball passing low near Cherokee, N.C., sounding
"like unto hot rocks thrown in to a barrel of water, which
alarmed some of the females very much."

Davenport pays for most center operations, in part from the 1995
sale of his biotech firm, Panlabs International.

"I am flabbergasted that the world is devoting so little
attention to the subject, given that some of the reported cases
are so convincing," he said.

**

=A91999-2002 Seattle Post-Intelligencer








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              Burlington, Iowa Sightings From 1920 And Onwards

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:16:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:46:02 -0400
Subject: Burlington, Iowa Sightings From 1920 And Onwards


Source: The Hawk Eye - Burlington, Iowa

http://www.thehawkeye.com/daily/stories/ln11_0728.html

Stig

***

Sunday, July 28, 2002

'It wasn't anything from Earth'

By James Quirk Jr.
The Hawk Eye

**

The Burlington area was not immune from purported sightings of
flying craft from other worlds during the great UFO flap of
1947.

"Flying saucer" sightings climaxed during the summer of 1947, as
hundreds of people from across the country reported they
witnessed strange, unidentifiable craft in the sky.

It started when 32--year--old Kenneth Arnold, a Boise, Idaho,
businessman, pilot, federal marshal and member of the Idaho
Search and Rescue Flyers, reported seeing nine objects in the
sky that "flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the
water" the afternoon of June 24, 1947.

Arnold was flying over Washington's Mount Rainier searching for
a private plane believed to have crashed somewhere in the
Cascade Mountains.

Arnold said the objects "emitted very bright blue--white flashes
from their surfaces" as they flew almost directly across his
flight path and "didn't fly like any aircraft I had seen
before."

Arnold calculated the objects to be flying almost 1,700 mph, a
speed no known aircraft at the time had yet achieved.

The Associated Press wired Arnold's story about "saucer--like
objects" to newspapers across the country, an action that coined
the term "flying saucer."

Arnold's sighting set off a glut of flying saucer reports.

The Hawk--Eye Gazette on July 7, 1947, included this front--page
headline: "Reports Disk North of City."

According to the article, Mrs. W. R. Eads, formerly of 512 S.
10th St., reported that she had seen a flying saucer a couple
weeks before, on June 25, 10 miles north of Burlington on Route
99.

Eads was visiting family and, while seated on the front porch of
her daughter's farm home, "said she saw the brilliantly shining
object skimming through the sky and headed southwest."

"It sparkled like a sundial," said Eads, who has since died. "It
glided along smoothly but I don't know how fast it was going."

Another report in the newspaper the same day indicated many
Burlington residents were seen watching the sky.

"All along the streets of Burlington today people were craning
their necks skyward in the hope of seeing a flying saucer,
because folks down in Keokuk think they saw some one day last
week," the newspaper reported.

"However, since Keokuk is a town where they frequently see
things, Burlington generally was taking its eerie sky visitors
with a grain of salt. But doubt didn't keep people from looking
=97 and they were not disappointed. They actually saw something.
It was an airplane engaged in sky--writing. The pilot, with a
stream of smoke, was spelling out the name of a well--known
beverage. Meanwhile, tonsils were getting sun--burned by the
onlookers."

The newspaper's July 9, 1947, edition included two more local
reports and an AP dispatch that debunked a July 8 report that
the U.S. Army Air Forces had retrieved remnants of a crashed
flying saucer in the desert outside Roswell, N.M.

Mrs. Clayton Carper, who lived at 2115 Des Moines Ave., reported
seeing a flying saucer while picking beans in her garden late in
the afternoon of July 7, 1947. Resident Archie Smith said he saw
two of the objects sailing through the sky at 5:30 p.m. the same
day.

"It was awfully high and it looked just like someone had thrown
a silver dollar into the air," Carper said. "It was going fast
and disappeared almost immediately."

"I was just talking with my uncle about the disks and we saw a
bird flying overhead," Smith said. "I laughingly told him it was
one of the disks and seconds later we saw the two shining
objects flying high and fast toward the southwest."

The military insisted that Roswell incident was not a space ship
with alien but wreckage from a high--altitude weather balloon
with an attached radar reflector.

Meanwhile, in southeast Iowa, The Hawk--Eye Gazette reported July
9, 1947, "there'll be no disk jitters in the Burlington area
over weather balloon equipment such as was found in (New
Mexico)."

C. O. Tucker, who was in charge of the U.S. Weather Bureau in
Burlington at the time, said his station did not use the type of
balloon found in Roswell for making observations.

Tucker said he learned the fragment found in Roswell was a
"piece of metal attached to the balloon to enable observers to
make contact with it by radar while it was in free flight."

Resident Paul Bacher, 92, a retired science teacher, was
teaching chemistry at the former Burlington Junior College (now
Southeastern Community College) during the 1947 flap.

"People imagined a lot of things in those days," Bacher said in
a recent interview. "The government probably did a few things on
the secret, but everybody was alarmed about something that might
have been imagination."

Bacher and his wife, Roma, don't believe in flying saucers.

"We never seen any," he said. "We always thought it was
imagination. I don't doubt people saw something, but did they
see what they thought they saw?"

Although the 1947 UFO flap would end by late July, reports
continued to surface in subsequent years and interest in the
subject grew.

In the mid--1950s, Lloyd Maffitt, who reported for The Hawk Eye
from 1946 until 1996, said he and the newspaper's former city
editor, the late Dan Bied, traveled to Macomb, Ill., to attend a
UFO convention at Western Illinois University.

Maffitt said there were hundreds of UFO aficionados attended who
talked about their individual experiences.

"They even had a film they showed," he said. "We got a full load
of UFOs ... it was something."

Maffitt said he always considered the concept of UFOs "foolish."

In a 1950 article in The Hawk Eye, Bonnie Weaver, a professional
golfer, reported seeing a strange object in the sky. He saw the
object one morning while at the Burlington Golf Club.

Weaver said the object was thin "and on the order of a
boomerang."

"The object was silver and traveling east, fast and high," he
reported. According to the report, "he looked away for an
instant and looked back to see a flash of white light and a
trail of sparks and then the object was lost from view ... he
heard no sound from the object."

Perhaps one of the strangest UFO stories that occurred in
southeast Iowa is a purported incident that happened 27 years
before the 1947 flap.

In 1973, The Hawk Eye ran a series of stories about three
strange circles found near Mud Creek recreation area in Henry
County that formed a triangular pattern.

Some people believed the pattern found in the area was evidence
of an extraterrestrial spacecraft landing.

The story about the Mud Creek "rings" continued through 1973 and
spurred other stories to emerge, including a man's fantastic,
vivid account of a possible alien visitation 53 years earlier.

On Oct. 28, 1973, The Hawk Eye included a story from Mount
Pleasant resident Clark Linch, 75 at the time but has since
died, who related a story that took place in 1920.

Linch maintained that at about 10 a.m. on June 3, 1920, he saw
what he later came to believe was an extraterrestrial spacecraft
land while he was fishing.

Linch said he was working his father's farm 6 miles northeast of
town when he took the forenoon off to go fishing.

"I remember the year because I'd gotten married in January of
1920," he said, adding he was able to remember the exact date
because it was his birthday.

While fishing, Linch saw an egg--shaped object the size of a
cream can land silently about 15--feet from his river bank perch.
The object "sat there" for about 15 minutes, "not bothering him
-- nor he bothering it," according to the report.

"I wasn't in any hurry to jump up and run over to it, and I'm
glad I didn't. It might have killed me. Just when I thought
about going over to take a closer look at it, it took off
without any sound and without turning around. The grass where it
hit was pressed down."

Linch said the object left no damage or burn marks on the grass
where it had landed. The blue and translucent object "would have
been camouflaged in the sky ... I didn't know what to believe
about it at the time, and I still don't. I've concluded that it
wasn't anything from Earth."

Because of the object's small size, Linch had said, "it couldn't
have been occupied by intelligent life as we know it."

Linch observed that his sighting differed from other UFO reports
because the object he saw moved slowly, "probably about four or
five miles per hour," and was small and "apparently
lightweight."

It took 35 years, until 1955, for Linch to tell his story to
anybody.

"You didn't talk about flying saucers in (1920)," he said.

In 1994, the government's General Accounting Office researched
the Roswell incident and reached a slightly different conclusion
than the weather--balloon tale.

"Aliens" observed in the New Mexico desert, the GAO concluded,
actually were human--like test dummies that were carried aloft by
U.S. Air Force high--altitude research balloons.

Reports of military units that always seemed to arrive shortly
after the crash of a "flying saucer" to retrieve the saucer and
its "crew," were accurate descriptions of Air Force personnel
recovering the dummies, the GAO said.

The tests were conducted to learn how to return pilots or
astronauts to earth if they had to eject from high altitudes.

But the tests also startled =97 and amused =97 many 55 summers ago.

**

The Hawk Eye
800 S. Main St., Burlington Iowa 52601
319-754-8461 Front Desk =B7 319-754-6824 FAX =B7 1-800-397-1708 Toll
Free








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             Crop Circles Baffle Farmer In Naperville, Illinois

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:34:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:46:59 -0400
Subject: Crop Circles Baffle Farmer In Naperville, Illinois


Source The Daily Register - Harrisburg, Illinois

http://www.dailyregister.com/news/cropcircles072702.html

Stig

***

Crop circles baffle Naperville farmer

Saturday, July 27, 2002

**

NAPERVILLE, Ill. (AP) -- Caution Naperville residents: a soybean
destroying alien may be on the loose.

That or a huge M. Night Shyamalan fan.

Someone -- or something -- cut a crop circle in Steve Berning's
soybean field last weekend, damaging more than 10 percent of the
8-acre field.

"Have you ever heard of something so crazy?" Berning said.
"Unbelievable."

Shyamalan's big-budget film "Signs," which will be released Aug.
2, tells the story of a Pennsylvania farmer who finds mysterious
crop circles in his fields.

The Naperville circle's intricate pattern of broken, concentric
rings loosely resembles other crop circles found in England.
Berning blames pranksters for the "hoax," but some crop circle
investigators suggest other causes, such as magnetic fields,
wind storms or UFOs.

William Leone, an investigator with the Mutual UFO Network, said
soil analysis could determine whether the circles have human or
extraterrestrial origins.

The UFO theory doesn't fly with Illinois Farm Bureau spokesman
Dennis Vercler.

"Since I don't believe in UFOs -- at least not soybean-
destroying UFOs -- I have to assume whoever did this did it
intentionally as a malicious prank."

Berning said he hopes to find the culprit, but does not think
anything can be done about the circle.

"There's some damage, which upsets me," he said. "But I'm more
curious than anything. I'll always be asking questions."

**

The Daily Register is a publication of Liberty Group Publishing

=A9 2000, 2001, 2002 The Daily Register, Harrisburg, Illinois







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                Raelian Claims Her Company On Verge Of Human

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:56:24 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:48:08 -0400
Subject: Raelian Claims Her Company On Verge Of Human


Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2002/Jul-29-Mon-
2002/news/19280763.html

Stig

***

Monday, July 29, 2002

Copyright =A9 Las Vegas Review-Journal

UPDATE: Las Vegan claims company she heads on verge of human
cloning

**

With about $9,000 and access to a high school biology lab, an
international UFO-related organization claims you can produce --
  you.

Clonaid, founded by the Raelian Movement, has manufactured 350
of its cloning machines since October and hopes to eventually
make the technology available to the public.

"Those people who want to reproduce naturally will do so, but
those who want to be cloned will be able to do so soon," said
Las Vegan Brigitte Boisselier, managing director of Clonaid, the
scientific arm of the Raelian Movement.

Boisselier gained attention in March 2001 when she testified
before a House subcommittee in support of cloning. She was later
featured on CNN and in national publications, and U.S. News &
World Report magazine reported that a grand jury had been
convened to look into her financial dealings.

A West Virginia lawyer told the Charleston Gazette that he had
invested $500,000 in Clonaid before he severed ties with the
organization. The paper reported that he and his wife had
enlisted Boisselier to clone their 10-month-old son, who died in
1999.

The group's Web site says it believes human extraterrestrials
created life on Earth through genetic engineering and DNA. The
supernatural beings resurrected Jesus through advanced cloning
techniques, and humans mistook the alien forms as gods.
According to the Web site, there are more than 55,000 Raelians
worldwide.

Boisselier's team of six to eight researchers displayed the
cloning machine, dubbed RMX 2010, at the first Bio Expo in Japan
two weeks ago. The group says the invention, built in South
Korea, fuses donor and embryo cells, called blastocysts, which
can be implanted into a woman.

"We have produced more than 300 blastocysts, and most of them
are viable. When you have viable blastocysts you implant them,"
Boisselier said.

Boisselier was quoted Thursday in the Boston Globe on the
process, saying the next announcement will be the birth of a
baby.

The paper reported a maverick Italian scientist was attempting
the same thing, but that none of the claims have been confirmed
by independent scientists. Still, fertility specialists believe
such groups possess the ability to create cloned babies.

Other researchers point to abnormalities in cloned animals in
arguing that a cloned child would die in infancy or suffer
deformities or health problems throughout its life.

Operating in a secret lab at an undisclosed location since 1997,
Clonaid plans to disclose results of its research with RMX 2010
in December.

"To present the first baby, once the first shock is over, there
won't be a need for secrecy," Boisselier told the Review-Journal
last week.

Secrecy has become a skill for Boisselier, who runs the company
from Las Vegas.

"I have very dedicated assistants in every operation so I can
meet them in different locations, and that's how I lead this
company," she said. "I'm an expert now in encrypted e-mails."

The grand jury investigation into the cloning and financial
operations of Clonaid was launched in April 2001.

"They were concerned about the lab and mainly concerned about
whether I was taking money from anyone, which I was not," said
Boisselier.

Boisselier said she believes the investigation has been dropped.

-- K.C. HOWARD

Wondering how a local story turned out or what happened to
someone in the news? Call the City Desk at 383-0264 and we will
try to answer your question in this column.

**

Copyright =A9 Las Vegas Review-Journal, 1997 - 2002







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                  UFO Lawn Ornament Is Political Statement

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 04:46:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:51:08 -0400
Subject: UFO Lawn Ornament Is Political Statement


Source: AP via Canadian Press & canada.com

http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=3DE509BCE9-553A-4C89-8D9A-52F=
A09F349E0

Stig

***

UFO lawn ornament is a political statement

Canadian Press

Thursday, July 25, 2002

**

CONCORD, Michigan (AP) - The aliens have landed -- on Alan
Lewis' lawn. At least it looks that way. Lewis has a flying
saucer in his yard. It's a 275 kilogram model made of
fiberglass, metal and plastic. It's got the requisite flashing
lights. And an alien, of course, looking out the saucer window.

So far, no complaints from the Earthlings. Lewis says people in
his Concord, Michigan, neighborhood think the UFOs kind of a
cool. Lewis' lawn-saucer is also a political statement of sorts.
He says the government is covering up visits by
extraterrestrials.

But the local government could shoot down the make-believe
saucer. Local officials want Lewis to get a zoning variance
because his saucer is too close to the property line.

**

=A9 Copyright  2002 The Canadian Press

Copyright =A9 2002 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest Global
Communications Corp.

All rights reserved. Copyright terms & conditions







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                    Michigan Man's Lawn Home To UFO Model

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 05:37:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:52:37 -0400
Subject: Michigan Man's Lawn Home To UFO Model


Source: The Boston Globe

http://www.globe.com/news/daily/25/odds_ufo.htm

Stig

***

Mich. man's lawn home to UFO model

By Associated Press, 7/25/02

**

CONCORD, Mich. =97 Double-takes abound when people pass by Alan
Lewis' house, where a flying saucer appears to have landed in
the yard.

It's actually a 600-pound model made of fiberglass, aluminum,
steel and plastic, and adorned with colored lights. A plastic
alien peers out from the silver spacecraft, which resembles an
upside-down satellite dish propped on a plastic tube.

"I like having something not too many people have," Lewis said.
"All the neighbors I've talked to, they're all for it. They
think it's cool."

He said he bought the model from a roadside merchant just north
of Lansing and paid $400, which included $200 for delivery. He
bolted it to a large concrete slab near the side of his house
about six weeks ago.

"I'm thinking of putting a strobe light on the inside so it'll
flash at night," he said.

Cathy Murdock drives past Lewis' house in the pre-dawn hours on
her way to work at the Silver Spoon restaurant. When it's dark,
Lewis lights up the saucer with yellow, red, blue and purple
lights. A white dome light is on top and a spotlight shines on
the alien.

"The first time I saw it, it was 5:30 a.m.," Murdock said. "I
thought, oh my gosh, a UFO."

**

=A9 Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company







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                   Shostak Reports On 'Bioastronomy 2002'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:18:59 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:53:49 -0400
Subject: Shostak Reports On 'Bioastronomy 2002'


Source: alt.paranet.ufo
July 29, 2002

Stig

***

From: Info <info@info.com>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.research,alt.ufo.reports
Subject: Bioastronomy 2002: Scientists Look for Life
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:33:39 GMT

**

Bioastronomy 2002: Scientists Look for Life
By Seth Shostak
Astronomer, Project Phoenix
posted: 08:55 am ET
11 July 2002

Seth Shostak, astronomer at the SETI Institute, is attending
a week-long conference on life in the universe being held in
Australia. This is his first report from the scene.

Bioastronomy. It's a nifty word, but is bioastronomy - an
enthusiastic amalgam of biology and astronomy - real
science?

There are about 200 researchers who obviously think so. They've
seriously damaged their travel budgets in order to attend a
week-long conference in a little-known corner of Australia, The
Whitsunday Islands boff the Queensland coast. The expansive
title of the conference is "Bioastronomy 2002: Life Among the
Stars." The Whitsunday Islands, including Hamilton Island, were
named by Captain James Cook during his discovery voyage in 1770.

But of course, as any propeller-head will tell you, we don't
have convincing evidence for life in the backyard of our solar
system, let alone among the stars. Not yet.

However, there's a growing consensus in the scientific community
that such evidence could turn up, possibly soon. It's a
remarkable change of heart. In the 1970s, we stopped the Apollo
missions and our first manned forays into space, mostly for lack
of interest. By the mid-70s, the Viking Landers had settled onto
the rusty dust of Mars and - somewhat disappointingly - failed
to find the Martians. In the early 1990s, the U.S. Congress
stopped all funding of SETI experiments. It's not fair to say
that the Dark Ages had settled in, but looking for cosmic
biology wasn't exactly at the top of the charts.

Things change, to misquote the French. Life in space is back in
vogue, and this time the enchantment may last. We now know that
planets around other suns not only exist, but accompany at least
one star in ten. Liquid water could ooze a mere few hundred feet
below the Martian surface. Massive oceans might hulk beneath the
crusts of several Jovian moons.

These recent findings suggest that biology could be common in
the cosmos. As a consequence, new missions to the planets, new
instruments for sniffing the atmospheres of other worlds, and
new telescopes for SETI are all either being built or are on the
CAD/CAM screens. Astrobiology institutes have sprung up in the
U.S., in Europe, and here in Australia.

Scientists are taking this stuff seriously. On the first day of
the conference, there was one learned report after the other on
how the organic building blocks of life could be formed in the
dust around stars - either when old stars are dying or when new
ones are forming. A speaker mentioned rather off-handedly that
each day, roughly two tons of organic material is dropped on
Earth from space. Other worlds, around other stars, are
presumably being coated with organic molecules as well.

During the course of this week, attendees at this Bioastronomy
conference will discuss extrasolar planets, how life got started
on the Earth, the evolution of intelligence, SETI, and the
search for biology in the solar system. It's an unusual venue:
Hamilton Island, a several- mile blob of topography that,
together with 73 sister islands, cluster near the coast of
Queensland, in northeast Australia.

It's a beautiful place quite frankly, and one that most
Australians regard as a high-class resort destination. The sun-
and-surf crowd might find it hard  to believe that hundreds of
visitors would opt to spend their days - not torture-testing
their snorkels on the reef - but sitting quietly on folding
chairs in a dark auditorium. To these attentive troglodytes,
bioastronomy is not only a real subject, but also one of the
most exciting things going.

CREDIT: Seth Shostak








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                    Re: New BLT Research Website - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:20:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:56:18 -0400
Subject: Re: New BLT Research Website - Myers


 >From: Dave Haith <visions@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: New BLT Research Website
 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:23:38 +0100

 >BLT Research Team Inc. Website goes 'live'

 >Here at last, a new crop circle website with the work of Nancy
 >Talbott, William C. Levengood and company all neatly together in
 >one place.

 >http://www.bltresearch.com

 >Quick perusal suggests there is a balance to appeal to both lay-
 >people and boffins with quite a few new areas of intriguing
 >research.


What a great website - credible and scientific with supporting
evidence instead of innuendos, anecdotes and bogus science. This
is what research should be and I'm blown away by the straight
presentation of facts - _very_ refreshing! Some folks could take
a lesson here.....


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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                           On The Trindade Photos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:16:52 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:57:59 -0400
Subject: On The Trindade Photos


Sorry if this item has already been aired here, but there is an
intriguing discussion of the Trindade photography on this site:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Trindade/Trindade.htm

under the title of 'The Trindade Island UFO: A detailed study of
Photos 1 and 2', by Martin J. Powell.

Any comments?


Best regards

Vicente-Juan







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                        Anti-Gravity Goes Mainstream

From: Kurt Jonach - The Electric Warrior <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 03:04:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:00:34 -0400
Subject: Anti-Gravity Goes Mainstream


--------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News July 30, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

--------------------------------------------------
ANTI-GRAVITY GOES MAINSTREAM
alternative science

***  Boeing funds anti-gravity research for commercial
application as independent researchers explore alternative
functional prototypes ***

photo: Lifter in Flight
http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/NaudinLifter.jpg

(The Electric Warrior) - The world's largest aircraft
manufacturer has given new credibility to the highly
controversial anti-gravity theories of Evgeny Podkletnov.
Boeing's Phantom Works advanced R&D group say the Russian
physicist's weird science theories appear to be valid and
plausible.

"If gravity modification is real, it will alter the entire
aerospace business," Boeing told Jane's Defense Weekly.

Boeing's GRASP project (Gravity Research for Advanced Space
Propulsion) is taking a second look at a technology that was
rejected as fundamentally flawed when Podkletnov first published
his findings in 1992. The skeptical backlash cost him his
university job.

NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics (BPP) failed to replicate
Podkletnov's gravity-shielding technique at the time, but as
reported by this blog last March, NASA ordered a custom built
anti-gravity device designed to meet the physicist's exact
specifications.

Superconductive Components, Inc. (SCI), a company specializing
in high-tech materials science, told the Los Angeles Times they
were not gravity experts, and simply built the machine to agreed
upon specifications.

NASA's bleeding-edge scientists spent better than one-half
million recession-proof dollars on a box they couldn't guarantee
would work, and the LA Times enthusiastically supported it,
saying revolutionary spaceships and gravity powered cars were
just some of the potential technology spin-offs.

Although Big Media have reported NASA's continued interest in
the topic, further BPP research is unlikely, because recent
budget cuts have apparently eliminated funding for research
involving Podkletnov's gravity shield claim.

ANTI-GRAVITY HACKER'S LOW COST ALTERNATIVE

The enthusiastic dedication of an international group of
independent researchers has gained world wide attention for the
inexplicable hand-made flying triangles they call Lifters.

The theory supporting Lifter technology goes by various names,
including "Electrogravitics" and the "Biefeld-Brown effect."
NASA's BPP criticized the work for being published in
"inappropriate venues", saying that their expressed interest in
the research had done more harm than good:

"Such activities have tainted the overall credibility of BPP
research, by association," said a weekly status report from late
last May.

But the most interesting thing about the balsa-wood and aluminum
foil Lifters is that they really do appear to defy gravity. As
Tim Ventura of American Antigravity tells it, last year people
were asking,  "Are the Lifters real?" This year people are
asking "How do they work?"

The Lifters got their biggest boost from the efforts of Jean-
Louis Naudin. JLN Lab's step-by-step online instructions
popularized the devices, which seemingly defy conventional
explanation.

Both Ventura and Naudin document the results of their work with
home-made movies that show the triangles leap into the air the
instant their high voltage power supplies are switched on. The
video clips would be extremely hard to fake.

When "The Electric Warrior" talked to Ventura last May, he had
just finished construction of the largest Lifter to date. It
reportedly flew for seven hours strait.

Ventura doesn't claim that Lifter technology involves true anti-
gravity, but rather a method of producing a directional thrust.
According to Ventura the Lifter's acceleration is too fast for
its load. In other words, it somehow counteracts gravity.

A few days before the Boeing story broke, a discussion on the
Yahoo Lifters news group noted that Russian science seems to
have less bias against so-called "new energy technologies", and
was probably further along in its understanding of whatever
processes were at work.

Boeing's GRASP project means that Russian concepts of anti-
gravity are getting some can-do mainstream attention.

--------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

29-Jul-02
Anti-gravity propulsion comes 'out of the closet'
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jdw/jdw020729_1_n.shtml

(Jane's) - Boeing, the world's largest aircraft manufacturer,
has admitted it is working on experimental anti-gravity projects
that could overturn a century of conventional aerospace
propulsion technology if the science underpinning them can be
engineered into hardware.

16-May-02
Anti-Gravity Hackers Confound Mainstream Science
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0041.htm

(The Electric Warrior) - Handmade flying triangles based on
obscure science seem to defy gravity and conventional physics
can't explain why. "As an inventor, I couldn't care less whether
or not the idea for the technology came from a crashed UFO."

http://www.americanantigravity.com
(American Antigravity) - Lifter technology is a new type of
field-effect propulsion technology that provides thrust without
expelling mass. It is based on ion-drive and Biefeld-Brown
effect propulsion technology, and uses only electricity to
produce thrust.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/
(JLN Labs) - You are welcome in the JLN Labs Web site dedicated
to the search of Free-Energy solutions and new generation of
space-propulsion systems.

--------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
July 29, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

Graphics & Gonzo

--------------------------------------------------
Do you like this article? The URL address for this content is:

http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0047.htm

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only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:09:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:02:24 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:44:05 -0400
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >Just as a speculation: What if the first pursuit plane was well
 >out in front of the other jets in the group.  By the time
 >witnesses got outside (remember this was about 2:00am) the first
 >jet was out in the distance and they were now able to see the
 >following jets chasing what appeared to be a ball of light in
 >the distance.  It's unlikely that the dark shape of the jet
 >could be seen at a distance, but the flames from his exaust
 >would be visible (although certainly not blue in color).

<snip>

As has already been stated, the radar signature was reported as
"a private aircraft", definitely not something that would call
for afterburners once the 'chase' was on.


Eleanor White








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              Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Acres

From: David Acres <dacres@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:21:40 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:03:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment - Acres


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:26:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Battle of L.A. Searchlight Equipment

 >I have uploaded some processed versions of the Battle of LA
 >photo along with some cursory analysis indicating a size of the
 >object. Interested people should go to:

 >http://brumac.8k.com/battleofla/battleofla.html


Hello Errol. Dr. Mac, and all.

Nice work on the pic Dr. Mac.

You wrote: "I don't know the film speed or the f stop of the
camera. However, I would guess that this is a time exposure
because (a) the light beams show up and (b) there are quite a
few "explosions" (I presume) which probably did not happen all
at once.   The exposure could have been several seconds."

If it were a time exposure, wouldn't we see illuminated
shrapnell streaks? Like one see's in fireworks photo's?

Regards,

Dave







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                      Internet Assault - The Next Wave

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:54:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:05:35 -0400
Subject: Internet Assault - The Next Wave


Hello All,

I received the following e-mail this morning. 'Somebody' at AOL
is now using/signing my name.


 >From: Supperbabyfish@aol.com
 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:23:32 EDT
 >Subject: (no subject)
 >To: john@virtuallystrange.net

 >Hi my name is John Velez.

 >                From
 >                   John Velez

Anyone receiving any e-mail from thie address:

Supperbabyfish@aol.com

with my name on it should _please_ notify me immediately. I have
filed a formal complaint with AOL and I am awaiting a response
from their staff.

The fun never stops.


John Velez

Sign the International Petition to the United Nations
for disclosure of information pertaining to UFOs.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:16:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:08:02 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To:  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:18 EDT
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:49:39 -0700
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >>It was somewhat unsettling to hear Maj. Snyder suggest that some
 >>of the radar data concerning a simultaneous track of the F-16's
 >>and the 'object' may not be releasable due to 'operational
 >>policy.' I can't fathom why this particular information would be
 >>withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
 >>either.

 >You can't?  During wartime, why would anyone want to reveal info
 >about tracking unkown aircraft near the Nation's Capitol?
 >Beggin' your usually sensible, down-to-Earth pardon, but are you
 >serious?

A few weeks ago a small plane accidently flew into the
restricted zone and they behaved differently during last week's
event.  Investigation will perhaps show how they responded, what
the stimulus was, as well as a good timetable of the event.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the military response
until I have reason to suspect that something is being
(improperly) held back.  Some witness descriptions in the media
don't fit with the description given by the NORAD spokesman, but
not all the witnesses appear to agree on what the object looked
like.  An investigation will include official witness statements
and that might help to clear it up.

Steve









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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:12:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:45:14 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:09:52 +0000
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:44:05 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 ><snip>

 >>Just as a speculation: What if the first pursuit plane was well
 >>out in front of the other jets in the group.  By the time
 >>witnesses got outside (remember this was about 2:00am) the first
 >>jet was out in the distance and they were now able to see the
 >>following jets chasing what appeared to be a ball of light in
 >>the distance.  It's unlikely that the dark shape of the jet
 >>could be seen at a distance, but the flames from his exaust
 >>would be visible (although certainly not blue in color).

<snip>

 >As has already been stated, the radar signature was reported as
 >"a private aircraft", definitely not something that would call
 >for afterburners once the 'chase' was on.


I agree, which is why the actual radar data is important.....

I was referring to the ground witnesses. What if they were
actually looking at the lead Jet and couldn't identify it as
such. Seeing only the exhaust they might have described it as a
ball of light. [reaching into my memory and we need real
testimony] As I recall, one of the witnesses said that he went
outside when the sound of approaching jet aircraft occurred for
a second time. What if the "ball of light" was actually created
by a jet that was now in the distance and couldn't been seen?

That wouldn't explain why jets were scrambled to deal with a
small plane, and certainly the use of afterburners is ridiculous
if that's what they werechasing.









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             Re: AP On The National UFO Reporting Center - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:43:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:13:38 -0400
Subject: Re: AP On The National UFO Reporting Center - White


 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@privat.dk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:06:24 +0200
 >Subject: AP On The National UFO Reporting Center

 >Source: Seattle Post-Intelligencer

 >http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/80375_ufo29.shtml

 >Stig

 >***

 >Apartment near UW is a UFO clearinghouse

 >Monday, July 29, 2002

 >By LUIS CABRERA
 >THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

 >**

 >In Freehold, N.J., a woman reports seeing an enormous craft
 >"right out of ET" hover in the night sky for several minutes
 >before it glided away over a wooded area.

<snip>

 >Davenport acknowledges there's no smoking-gun proof that aliens
 >are among us -- no seized flying saucers or unearthly skeletons
 >on display.

"No unearthly skeletons".

My current job requires two or more overnight shifts per week,
and this has been going on since summer of 2000.

I can listen to overnight talk shows, (but not, unfortunately,
phone-in). This has given me the chance to hear perhaps 200
authors and researchers on a wide variety of topics.
(Unfortunately, being somewhat of weakened health and being jet
lagged by these night shifts, I cannot make notes of everything
I hear.)

Some of the researchers have been in the field of "crypto-
archaeology" (my term), that is, archaeological finds which
contradict the currently accepted teachings about human
existence and history.

One such researcher spoke about what he called a repeated
scenario that plays out in museums world wide:

1.  A field researcher or team will find humanoid skeletons
     of widely varying size which are clearly outside normal
     human dimensions, from perhaps 18 inches high to as
     much as ten feet in height.

2.  These skeletons are placed in the care of various
     museums or university archaeology/anthropology
     departments, but not displayed.

3.  Very soon afterwards, (and in the U.S., presumably
     repeated by other governments elsewhere) the museum
     is visited by "government representatives" who "borrow"
     the skeleton to investigate it, with a promise to return,
     a promise never fulfilled.

In spite of such confiscations, there are some artifacts salted
away in various museums/universities around the world which
strikingly suggest ancient involvement by advanced
civilizations. (Two gold or bronze "model aircraft", with lines
indicating control surfaces and which looked very much like the
A-4 Skyhawk, did make it on to an educational TV show some years
ago.)

When the crypto-archaeological investigator has requested to see
some of these ancient hi-tech artifacts, he is consistently met
with stonewalling.  ("We don't have enough staff to get that
item out of storage", etc.)

I'd like to ask Listers here if anyone else is aware of this
seeming "men in black" type of suppression of non-standard-size
or form humanoid skeletons?

It may be that a determined research effort in this area would
produce some of the best 'hands-on' type evidence for the ET
hypothesis.


Eleanor White








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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - White

From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:48:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:15:06 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - White

 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To:  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:18 EDT
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >>I can't fathom why this particular information would be
 >>withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
 >>either.

 >Kenny:

 >You can't?  During wartime, why would anyone want to reveal info
 >about tracking unkown aircraft near the Nation's Capitol?  Beggin'
 >your usually sensible, down-to-Earth pardon, but are you serious?

Probably for the same reason NORAD released any info at all
about the incident. To try and reassure the public that in spite
of their total lack of readiness during the 9/11 attacks,
_this_time_ they've got it right.


Eleanor White










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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:58:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:17:07 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:16:55 -0400

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To:  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:18 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>>Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:49:39 -0700
 >>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >>>It was somewhat unsettling to hear Maj. Snyder suggest that some
 >>>of the radar data concerning a simultaneous track of the F-16's
 >>>and the 'object' may not be releasable due to 'operational
 >>>policy.' I can't fathom why this particular information would be
 >>>withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
 >>>either.

 >>You can't?  During wartime, why would anyone want to reveal info
 >>about tracking unkown aircraft near the Nation's Capitol?
 >>Beggin' your usually sensible, down-to-Earth pardon, but are you
 >>serious?

<snip>

 >I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the military response
 >until I have reason to suspect that something is being
 >(improperly) held back.  Some witness descriptions in the media
 >don't fit with the description given by the NORAD spokesman, but
 >not all the witnesses appear to agree on what the object looked
 >like.  An investigation will include official witness statements
 >and that might help to clear it up. >>

Steve:

Could you be specific about what actions you think would
constitute "improperly" holding back information about air
defense operations like this during wartime?

Keep in mind that El Quada might also be reading the post, and
this List.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:14:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:33:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:04:06 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:05:33 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>Jerry:

 >>Don't look now, but I think he's yanking your chain. Even _I_
 >>don't necessarily accept Travis' account as accurate (or
 >>truthful for that matter). I can't render an opinion one way or
 >>the other on that part of the incident, but it's a sure bet that
 >>John is being facetious - at the expense of my keyboard.

 >Yank jerry's chain? Moi? For some of magonia magazine's views on
 >the travis Walto case as a hoax, go to

 >http//www. magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/ethbindex.html

 >then check out Bulletins no. 2, 3, 7, 9 and 21. Sorry about your
 >keyboard.

What is particularly interesting about the Walton case is that
although a hoax is the most obvious explanation (at least to the
sceptics), it is remarkably difficult to give a detailed account
of how the hoax might have been carried out which actually makes
sense.

For example, Phil Klass assumed that Walton and Rogers devised a
hoax and persuaded the other five men to go along with it. If
this is true, then they never saw anything unusual in the forest
on 5 November 1975, but possibly spent the day rehearsing what
they were going to do and say to make it sound convincing. This
leads to the problem that it demands extremely high standards of
self-discipline and acting ability from the seven men, in order
to withstand the intensive questioning from police, journalists
and ufologists.

This difficulty has led some investigators to consider that
perhaps Walton and Rogers deceived the other five men by rigging
up something in the trees and managing to convince them that it
was a UFO. When the object emitted a bright flash (presumably
triggered off by Walton or a hidden accomplice), Rogers drove
off quickly, so that the other men did not get a chance to get
out and investigate. In this scenario, we have the problem of
imagining what sort of gadget Walton and Rogers had rigged up
which was good enough to fool the other men, and how they got it
to the site, and kept it concealed all day, without being seen
by them or by other people in the forest. The advantage of this
scenario is that only Rogers had to put on an act when they were
questioned by the police. The emotions of the other five men
would have been entirely genuine. Also, the fact that they have
not had much to say about it in the following years could be
taken to indicate that they suspected they perhaps had been
deceived, but were not sure how it could have been done.

Personally, I'm not happy with either scenario, but explanations
involving hoaxes by other persons, or a "real" UFO, or rare
natural phenomenon, seem to make even less sense. Perhaps
someone else would like to have a go at finding a sensible
interpretation of the facts of the case (apart from mere
expressions of belief or scepticism).

John Harney








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:57:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:22:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:14:48 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Personally, I'm not happy with either scenario, but explanations
 >involving hoaxes by other persons, or a "real" UFO, or rare
 >natural phenomenon, seem to make even less sense.

The one thing which certainly makes no sense is the above
proclamation that a "true" UFO makes no sense. I suppose it
never does in the minds of those who rigorously deny this might
be a possibility.

And you're quite a mind reader, aren't you? Presuming to know
what the witnesses think happened after all these years and why
they haven't said anything anymore (have they really? Perhaps
the press lost interest? Perhaps they have nothing more to add?
Perhaps they got fed up with all the attention? I can think of
plenty other scenarios which may or may not be true). In short,
why don't you go and ask them rather than guess around?


cheers,

JvG









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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:00:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:25:40 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Ledger


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:48:49 +0000
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To:  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:18 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 ><snip>

 >>>I can't fathom why this particular information would be
 >>>withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
 >>>either.

 >>You can't?  During wartime, why would anyone want to reveal info
 >>about tracking unkown aircraft near the Nation's Capitol?  Beggin'
 >>your usually sensible, down-to-Earth pardon, but are you serious?

 >Probably for the same reason NORAD released any info at all
 >about the incident. To try and reassure the public that in spite
 >of their total lack of readiness during the 9/11 attacks,
 >_this_time_ they've got it right.


Hi Eleanor,

Gotta jump in here.

NORAD had little to do with the screw-ups during 9/11. That was
an intelligence boondoggle. NORAD would have had no reason to be
monitoring and micro-managing its own domestic airspace unless
it was alerted by the civilian agency [FAA] which was the
responsible authority, and was already doing that.

The NY TRACON, Philly TRACON and Washington TRACON corridor is
heaviliy monitored by civilian controlled radar. This is where
it would have been first noticed.

No doubt at some level an FAA controller/supervisor would have
become suspicious but only if he/she was privy to the larger
picture-large enough to detect more than one ambigueous
departure from controlled airspace and violating clearences.

To a lesser degree these violations occur daily-though not to
such a large error.

Traffic coming into NORAD's continental airspace [North America-
ground-level to infinity] would have been their concern. With
high-speed computers it would have been and is possible to
detect deviation from assigned flight levels and directions. No
doubt NORAD will be relying on that heavily now.


Best,

Don Ledger








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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:53:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Young


 >From: Eleanor White <raven1@mail.nas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:48:49 +0000
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:18 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >>>I can't fathom why this particular information would be
 >>>withheld, but I'm not fully informed on the particulars there,
 >>>either.

 >>>Kenny:

 >>You can't? During wartime, why would anyone want to reveal info
 >>about tracking unkown aircraft near the Nation's Capitol? Beggin'
 >>your usually sensible, down-to-Earth pardon, but are you serious?

 >Probably for the same reason NORAD released any info at all
 >about the incident. To try and reassure the public that in spite
 >of their total lack of readiness during the 9/11 attacks,
 >_this_time_ they've got it right.

Eleanor, List:

You have probably got it right. Also recall that the last time
the interceptors arrived too late to do anything, which may be
why they may have used their afterburners this time.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                    Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:49:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:28:48 -0400
Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis - Kaeser


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:58:36 EDT
 >Subject: Re: F-16 Scramble - Analysis

<snip>

 >Steve:

 >Could you be specific about what actions you think would
 >constitute "improperly" holding back information about air
 >defense operations like this during wartime?

 >Keep in mind that El Quada might also be reading the post, and
 >this List.

Gads, I'll have to be careful about what I say.  I mean, with the
Al-Queda listening and all..... <g>

Actually, Bob, during wartime you can just about hold everything
back from public view if you want, but what's your point.
Thankfully, I don't have to make that value judgment and someone
else will have to decide if responses are complete. Information
may be held back for National Security reasons, but we'd still
want to make sure they do it by the book.

Just to keep it straight, I live in Washington DC and work at
the U.S. House of Representatives.  I am very aware of the
defense operations here in the Nation's Capitol.


Steve








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               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:02:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:30:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:14:48 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >Perhaps someone else would like to have a go at finding a sensible
 >interpretation of the facts of the case (apart from mere
 >expressions of belief or scepticism).

Hi,

I take it you are asking us not to look at this case through
human eyes?


Roy








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                          Secrecy News -- 07/30/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:59:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:32:26 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/30/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 69
July 30, 2002


**      1980s INTELLIGENCE SHARING WITH IRAQ REVISITED
**      "INAPPROPRIATE" INFORMATION STILL ON DOD WEB SITES
**      SECRECY AND INTELLIGENCE
**      THE DOMESTICATION OF U.S. INTELLIGENCE


1980s INTELLIGENCE SHARING WITH IRAQ REVISITED

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday blamed American
defectors to Russia for the difficulty of locating and
eliminating Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, arguing that the
spies' disclosures had been provided to Iraq and used to support
its denial and deception activities. But he neglected to mention
that for years Iraq enjoyed more a direct source of U.S.
intelligence information.

According to Secretary Rumsfeld, "The Iraqis have benefited from
American spies defecting to the Soviet Union or Russia and
providing information as to how we do things, and then they
proliferate that information on how another country can best
achieve denial and deception and avoid having the location,
precise location, actionable locations of things [i.e., weapons
of mass destruction] known."  See:

   http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2002/t07292002_t0729sd.html

But former CIA analyst Allen Thomson observed that the record
indicates a much less roundabout source for Iraqi access to such
U.S. intelligence information, namely the U.S. government
itself.

On May 28, 1984, President Reagan issued National Security
Decision Directive (NSDD) 141 on "Responding to Escalation in
Iran-Iraq War" which authorized intelligence sharing with the
Government of Iraq in order to forestall an Iranian victory.
  (That Directive remains classified.)  In 1986, the scope of
intelligence sharing with Iraq was expanded twice, according to
a Senate Intelligence Committee report.

The consequences of that arrangement were suggested by Sen. Tom
Harkin in a November 7, 1991 floor statement.

"The secret intelligence sharing operation with Iraq was not
only a highly questionable and possibly illegal operation, but
also may have jeopardized American lives and our national
interests," Sen. Harkin said.

"The photo reconnaissance, highly sensitive electronic
eavesdropping and narrative texts provided to Saddam, may not
only have helped him in Iraq's war against Iran but also in the
recent gulf war. Saddam Hussein may have discovered the value of
underground land lines as opposed to radio communications after
he was given our intelligence information."

"Further, after the Persian Gulf war, our intelligence community
was surprised at the extent of Iraq's nuclear program. One
reason Saddam may have hidden his nuclear program so effectively
from detection was because of his knowledge of our satellite
photos. What also concerns me about that operation is that we
spend millions of dollars keeping secrets from the Soviets and
then we give it to Saddam who sells them to the Soviets," said
Sen. Harkin.  See Harkin's statement here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1991_cr/s911107-gates.htm

The latter point, of course, contrasts directly with Secretary
Rumsfeld's allegation that the Soviets or Russians had forwarded
such information to Saddam.

"The Iraqis are deceiving U.S. spy satellites and fooling
Pentagon intelligence analysts thanks to techniques they learned
from U.S. military intelligence officers during the eight-year
war between Iran and Iraq," reported Tim Weiner, then of the
Philadelphia Inquirer, back in 1991.

See his article "Iraq Uses Techniques in Spying Against Its
Former Tutor, the U.S.," with commentary by Jonathan Pollard, of
all people, here:

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1991/020591.htm


"INAPPROPRIATE" INFORMATION STILL ON DOD WEB SITES

The Department of Defense continues to publish web pages that
are considered "inappropriate" for security reasons, according
to a new DoD Inspector General report.

"As of May 2002, 30 of the 200 disclosures on publicly
accessible DoD Web sites that [had been] previously identified
between April and September 2001 as inappropriate were still
available for public viewing," the report found.

"It is evident by the number of occurrences that the review
process for determining the appropriateness of data on Web pages
has not been fully successful, and that the existing process and
procedures for local commanders to address the content of
information placed on their Web site are inadequate."

See a summary of the July 19 report on "DoD Web Site
Administration, Policies, and Practices" here:

http://www.dodig.osd.mil/audit/reports/fy02/02129sum.htm


SECRECY AND INTELLIGENCE

The notion that there may be such a thing as excessive secrecy
in intelligence is hardly new, but it has yet to achieve much
traction in national policy and the point still needs to be
made.

David J. Rothkopf, CEO of the private intelligence firm
Intellibridge, put it this way in the latest issue of Blueprint
magazine, a publication of the Democratic Leadership Council:

"The key to transforming U.S. intelligence is to change our
fundamental thinking. We must move from our traditional view of
intelligence as a sequestered world, insular and apart. Secrecy
is essential in certain areas and can be strengthened with new
technologies, but the culture of secrecy has also retarded the
growth of the intelligence community and hampered its ability to
rise to the new set of challenges before it -- challenges that
at their core require demand enhanced collaboration with other
agencies, with law enforcement, with the military, with states,
with localities, and with the private sector. Holding
information too closely stifles sharing, breeds distrust among
end-users, and sometimes prevents the joining of all the pieces
of a larger puzzle."

See Rothkopf's "Bridging the Intelligence Gap" here:

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=124&subid=900019&contentid=250679


THE DOMESTICATION OF U.S. INTELLIGENCE

It's a sign of the times.  Rep. Jim Saxton introduced
legislation last week to fund "the hiring and training of
intelligence officers and analysts by state and local police
departments, in an effort to further promote our nation's anti-
terrorism efforts."

The new state and local personnel would receive training that
"will include enhancing the officers' observation, information
gathering, foreign language, and analytic skills necessary to
spot terrorist threats in their communities."

The officers would all receive top secret security clearances to
facilitate their interaction with federal intelligence
officials.

See Rep. Saxton's July 26 statement on his bill here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/h072902.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 31

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:52:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:36:54 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 31


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 31
July 30, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


USAF JETS CHASE A UFO
OVER WASHINGTON, D.C.

       "For Renny Rogers, it was strange enough that
military jets were flying low over his home in Waldorf,"
Maryland (population 22,312) "in the middle of the night.
It was what he thinks he saw when he headed outside to
look early Friday," July 26, 2002 "that floored him."
       "'It was this object, this light-blue object,
traveling at a phenomenal rate of speed,' Rogers said,
'This Air Force jet was right behind it, chasing it, but
the object was just leaving him in the dust.  I told my
neighbor, 'I think those jets are chasing a UFO.''"
       "Military officials confirm that two F-16 jets from
Andrews Air Force Base" in Maryland "were scrambled early
Friday after radar detected an unknown aircraft in
Washington area airspace.  But they scoff at the idea
that the jets were chasing a strange and speedy blue
unidentified flying object."
       "'We had a (radar) track of some interest, so we
sent up some aircraft," said Major Douglas Martin, a
spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense
Command (NORAD) in" Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado, "which
has responsibility for defending U.S. airspace.
'Everything was fine in the sky, so they returned home.'"
       "At the same time, military officials say they do
not know what the jets were chasing, because whatever it
was disappeared."
       "'There are any number of scenarios, but we don't
know what it was,' said Major Barry Venable, another
spokesman for NORAD."
       "Radar detected a low, slow-flying aircraft about 1
a.m. Friday (July 26, 2002), according to a military
official.  Controllers were unable to establish radio
communications with the unidentified aircraft, and NORAD
was notified."
       "When the F-16s carrying air-to-air missiles were
launched from Andrews, the unidentified aircraft's track
faded from the radar, the military official said,
speaking on the condition that he not be identified."
       "Pilots with the" District of Columbia "Air National
Guard's 113th Wing, which flew the F-16s from Andrews,
reported nothing out of the ordinary, NORAD officials
said."
       "'It was a routine launch," said Lieutenant Colonel
Steve Chase, a senior officer with the Wing, which keeps
pilots and armed jets on 24-hour alert at Andrews to
respond to incidents as part of an air defense system
protecting Washington after the Sept. 11 (2001) terrorist
attacks."
       "Rogers remained convinced that what he saw was not
routine."
       "'It looked like a shooting star with no trailing
mist,' he said, 'I've never seen anything like it.'"
(See the Washington Post for July 27, 2002, "F-16s pursue
unknown craft over region," page B-2.  Many thanks to
Jose Gonzalez for forwarding this newspaper article.)


CATTLE MUTILATIONS TOTAL
394 IN ARGENTINA

       As of Friday, July 26, 2002, cattle mutilations had
spread to seventeen of Argentina's provinces and had
reached a total of 394 mysterious deaths.
       According to Proyecto Condor, the breakdown of
mutilation deaths by province includes 149 in Buenos
Aires province, 2 in Catamarca, 14 in Chaco, 2 in Chubut,
27 in Cordoba, 4 in Corrientes, 23 in Entre Rios, 8 in
Formosa, 77 in La Pampa, 11 in La Rioja, 1 in Mendoza, 15
in Neuquen, 7 in Salta, 4 in San Luis, 20 in Santa Fe, 14
in Santiago del Estero and 15 in Tucuman.
       And still the mutilations continue in Argentina.
       Last week, "six cows were found dead and mutilated
in a section known as El Cajon, inside the La Troja
ranch," in Salta province, "some 75 kilometers (45 miles)
east of the provincial capital."
       Judge Carlos M. Aguero Molina ordered an expedition
of veterinarians and researchers to visit the ranch to
conduct an on-site investigation.
       "The veterinarians performed autopsies on two of the
animals and submitted samples of tissue and organs to the
Police Biochemistry Lab and the School of Natural
Sciences at the National University of La Salta."
       "The six cows, who were missing eyes, tongues and
the flesh covering the lower maxillaries (jaws) and, in
one of three specimens, the genitalia and udders of a
female bovine, died in an area 6 kilometers around (3.6
miles in circumference) and were almost exactly 1,500
meters (5,000 feet) from each other."
       "Despite the difficulty (of negotiating the terrain-
-S.C.) and the torturous paths followed by the cows, if
an imaginary line were drawn between each of the
carcasses, an almost perfect isoceles triangle could be
found, a matter which could be coincidental but which
nevertheless astonished the police, who were headed by
the chief of the 4th Sheriff's Office of the (provincial)
capital, Miguel Armando Miranda."
       "Despite the peculiarities of the geometrical
arrangement of the deaths, there are other factors which
are no less disturbing: the bovines were untouched by the
usual carrion creatures, did not give off an odor, no
traces of blood were found, and the flesh did not appear
to have entered the process of decomposition, although it
is certain that the deaths occurred at least ten days ago
(July 11, 2002)."
       "It is also certain that the animals died
simultaneously and suddenly, since they fell as though
struck down, without having made the motions
characteristic of a struggle for life.  Of the six
bovines, only one left traces of having made any movement
prior to its death.  it made a small circumference
(circle) with one of its front legs.  Then it collapsed
and remained still."
       "'I never saw anything like it in my life,' said
Tito Yurquina, 70, the animals' owner, whose family has
been in this area for over four generations."
       "A similar opinion was offered by Margarita Maidana,
77, the clan's matriarch, who made the report to the
police."
       An even stranger incident occurred in southern
Cordoba province.
       "On the last Friday of June (2002), an event of
truly strange characteristics took place in a field in
Suco, located to the west of Rio Cuarto," in Cordoba
province, "very near the border with San Luis province."
       In Suco, "a livestock producer, regarded by all for
his responsibility and honesty, found 19 animals within
an Australian-type water tank (That is, a steel-sided,
sheet metal tank with a conical cap--S.C.)  Nine of the
bovines were dead," drowned according to local
veterinarians, and "the rest were alive but affected by
the low (winter) temperatures and near death due to
freezing."
       "The news not only spread like wildfire throughout
the area; it was confirmed by police officers of Regional
Unit 7, headquartered at Rio Cuarto, who took over the
investigation of the case utilizing personnel from the
Sampacho District Sheriff's Office, located 50 kilometers
(30 miles) west of Rio Cuarto on National Highway 8."
       "What no one could explain is how the 19 animals
could have entered the enormous water tank, bearing in
mind that they first had to cross an electric barrier,
then a 1.5-meter (5-foot) tall fence, and finally 'jump'
over the tank wall."
(See the Argentinian newspapers El Tribuno of Salta for
July 21, 2002, "Cattle mutilations at La Troja," and El
Diario del Sur de Cordoba-Villa Maria  for July 9, 2002,
"Cows found inside a water tank."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, Gloria Coluchi, Alicia Rossi, Christian
Quintero, Andrea Perez Simondini, Silvia Perez Simondini
y Daniel Valverdi para esos articulos de diario.)


LUMINOUS UFOs KNOCK OUT
CAR ENGINES IN ARGENTINA

       Argentina's UFO flap hit a new high level of
intensity last week with sightings reported in several
provinces.
       At the La Troja ranch in Salta province, where six
cows were found mutilated, "two other family members,
Carmen Salva, 15, and Nelly Tarifa, 51, added an item
which revives the belief that all of this (the
mutilations--J.T.) has extraterrestrial causes.  Both
women swear that in the days preceding the macabre find
'strange and powerful lights were seen in the skies.'"
       "'I saw a circle, like the full moon, over the
hills.  It gave off intermittent beams of different
colors,' said the teenager (Carmen Salva), a student at
the Sargento Cabral School" in Salta, the provincial
capital.  Carmen "is helping out with farm tasks during
her winter vacation."
       At Colonia Yatai, in Formosa province, "rancher Luis
Fernandez told of something that had captured his
attention.  At those locations" where 7 cattle were
mutilated two weeks ago, "late at night, 'I saw lights on
the horizon in the place where the mutilations occurred.
The light looked like a large flashlight that points down
from above.  We thought they were helicopters belonging
to some agency touring the area.  We went to look but
couldn't hear or find anything.  The light looks like
someone's lighting something from below, like a spotlight
with an intense white light.'"
       "Another witness corroborated Fernandez's testimony.
"It's true.  We always see things like immense
flashlights in the area which point downward from above,
as though looking for something, but never discuss it for
fear of being taken for madmen or liars.  This has to
happen to you for you to understand it.  Like my compadre
(best friend--J.T.), who would always laugh when I told
him that at the edge of Salado Creek certain shining
things would appear out of the sky, turning night into
day.  We went fishing one night and what he didn't
believe in unexpectedly happened.  The light appeared
above and lit up the sky like daylight.  We told others
what had happened but no one believed us.'"
       At the Feklo supermarket in Colonia Yatai, "local
residents said, 'It's true.  From here we have seen great
lights land in the area several times.  The thing rises
very quickly to become lost in swift movement.  At high
speed.  No one believes us, but it's true.  It doesn't
happen very often, but it happens after a rain shower or
a storm, and on cold nights, and always in the area where
Don Luis (Fernandez) found his dead animals.'"
(Editor's Note:  For more on the Colonia Yatai
mutilations, see UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 30, for
July 23, 2002, "Mutilations continue to sweep through
Argentina," page 3.)
       "Public opinion around the country was startled
yesterday (Monday, July 22, 2002) following news of a UFO
sighting in southern Cordoba (province) on Sunday night
(July 21, 2002)."
       "At least 20 police officers from the Cordoba region
saw the strange craft."
       "One of the officers had the most significant
experience, since the squad car in which he was traveling
and approaching the strange object ceased operating as
the object drew closer.  The same happened to his
cellphone and police radio.  Once the craft moved away,
the equipment began operating once more--even some of
which had been broken."
       "The police officers were some 10 meters (33 feet)
from the craft and said that it had the shape of a
triangle measuring approximately 200 meters (660 feet)
along the side, with countless portholes through which a
light similar to that of a spotlight emerged, lighting up
the entire area.  Behind the illuminated windows, the
police officers could see shadows, but which were not
clearly visible.  Yesterday (July 22, 2002) he told the
media that he was stunned by the experience."
       According to reporter Jorge Almiran of the newspaper
El Puntal of Rio Cuarto, "twenty days ago (July 3, 2002)
the Cordoba police saw another very strange, large light
in the same area."
       In Chacabuco, "a driver was taking three girls back
to their homes on Sunday morning (July 21, 2002).
According to the vehicle's four occupants, in the early
morning hours of Sunday and at the Terapia exit, in the
vicinity of the Garay extension, they saw a very powerful
light that was not a star and appeared to be hovering low
over the local houses.  The light was motionless and
changed color from light blue to green."
       "'When I stopped the car to see if I could hear
something, I couldn't start the engine again.  So I got
out (of the car--S.C.), fooled around with the engine a
bit, and finally made it start.  The girls were scared
and holding hands, but we went out on the side of the
road to get a better look.  Before (getting there--S.C.)
we could already see that it was closer to us.  It was
about the size of the rising moon, emitting flashes, and,
at a given moment, the entire edge of the light was
covered by some sort of fog, and I didn't like the matter
at all,' remarked the driver, who also made the report to
the authorities."
       "Residents of Calle 25 de Mayo (street) in Chacabuco
saw an object the day before yesterday (Sunday, July 21,
2002) during dusk.  It remained in the sky for a few
minutes before vanishing swiftly and mysteriously after
having remained motionless."
       "An unidentified flying object of large size and
intense luminosity was seen on Monday (July 15, 2002) in
the town of Campamento Vespucio, 7 kilometers (4 miles)
west of General Mosconi" in Salta province.  "The event
caused a sensation in this community, some 350 kilometers
(210 miles) north of Salta, which not long ago was the
oil-producing capital of the Argentinian northwest."
       "The presence of the object--visible to the unaided
eye over the forested tropical hills of the San Antonio
range, which act as the region's natural border, was the
size and shape of a rugby ball."
       "Residents of Vespucio took to the streets to look
at the object, which remained motionless for 40 minutes,
before vanishing suddenly to the west at a 'prodigious'
speed, according to witnesses."
       "A housewife, who chose to remain anonymous, said,
'It was oddly beautiful.  The intensity of the light was
enormous, although it produced no fear whatsoever.'"
       "The same woman added that 'we were all marvelling
at first but got serious when we realized that, along
with the phenomenon, the phones stopped working and the
electrical systems of several cars were left for dead
(failed--J.T.), making it impossible to start them or to
turn on their lights.'"
       "Residents of the Tablillas area, some 3 kilometers
(2 miles) inside the canyon where Campamento Vespucio is
located and consequently closer to the UFO, were not
surprised by the event, since they said, 'We are used to
seeing these singular luminous events since 1999,'" and
"'that whenever they appear, they cause failures in motor
and electrical equipment.'"  (See the Argentinian
newspapers El Tribuno of Salta for July 21, 2002, "Cattle
mutilations at La Troja;" El Comercial for July 21, 2002,
"Residents of Formosa claim having seen 'Light;" El
Diario de la Republica for July 23, 2002, "Commotion over
UFO sighting in sourthern Cordoba;" El Puntal of Rio
Cuarto for July 22, 2002; and El Tribuno for July 22,
2002, "An alleged UFO causes a commotion in Campamento
Vespucio."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, Alicia Rossi
y Gloria Coluchi para esos articulos de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  And just when you thought things
couldn't possibly get any stranger in South America...)


VIRGIN MARY APPARITION
CAUSES A RIOT IN BRAZIL

       On Sunday, July 14, 2002, an image of the Virgin
Mary suddenly appeared on the window of a home in Ferraz
de Vasconcelos, a cidade satelite (suburb) of Sao Paulo,
the largest city in Brazil.
(Editor's Note: Sao Paulo, with its population of 8
million, is also the largest city in South America.)
       "The alleged image of the Blessed Virgin (birth
name: Miriam bat-Joachim--J.T.) was found on the morning
of (Sunday) July 14 (2002) around 8:30 a.m. by two
children, Alan Jose de Rosa, 8, and his cousin, Joao
Fagner de Jesus, 10, who were playing when they noticed
'a strange stain' on the windowpane."
       "The image is a silhouette on glass on which can be
seen a halo and a mantle.  It appeared Sunday morning and
was first seen by a nephew of Ana Maria de Jesus Rosa,
who owns the house" at Avenida Antonio Bernardino Correa
No. 330 in Ferraz de Vasconcelos, Sao Paulo state.
       "'I told the children that by cleaning it, the image
would disappear, but as I passed a rag and several
cleaning products over it, ranging from alcohol to glass
cleaner, it only became more defined,'" said Sra. da
Rosa.
       "'We look at the image and see a silhouette on the
glass that is very similar to the images we can see, for
example, in Fatima,' said Father Jose Eduardo Ferreira,
36, the priest at Our Lady of Peace Church, to whose
(Roman Catholic) congregation Sra. da Rosa belongs."
(Editor's Note: On May 13, 1917, Miriam appeared to three
children--Lucia Abbobora dos Santos, Francisco Marto and
Jacinta Marto--at Cova da Iria, near Fatima, Portugal.
It was the most spectacular of the Marian apparitions of
the Twentieth Century.)
       Word spread rapidly through Sao Paulo, and pilgrims
by the thousand converged on the house.  "According to
the Sao Paulo Policia Municipao, 42,000 people passed
through the site on (Monday) July 22 (2002)."
       "Standing in line to see the image, which is already
being called Nossa Senhora da Janela (Portuguese for Our
Lady of the Window--J.T.), people managed to take up
three city blocks."
       "Yesterday (Sunday, July 21, 2002) TV personality
Gugu Liberato visited the site and filmed the image" for
his show News Sunday.
       "The presence of the TV show host caused a riot of
pushing and shoving among persons hoping to see the
image.  Due to the commotion, visits were prohibited
until 8 p.m."
       "Among those present were Francisco Pereira Cabral,
19," a seminarian from Maranhao in northern Brazil.
"'After I arrived, I saw the image and asked it to
increase our faith,' he said."
(Editor's Comment: Don't be too surprised if Francisco
becomes the Pope around the middle of the Twenty-First
Century.)
       "In the opinion of Sister Otalia Barboza de Sousa,
69, who accompanied him, there is no doubt that it is an
image our Our Lady.  'It is a sign.  I asked for a
blessing on our house (convent--J.T.) and for all people.
If she appeared, it's because we need her.'"
       "In spite of having stimulated the faith of the
homeowner, the neighbors and people from other cities"
elsewhere in Brazil, "the image was not confirmed as a
miracle by the Roman Catholic Church."
       "The Church plans to form a commission of
theologians, psychologists, physicists and chemists to
analyze the phenomenon.  Until then, visits shall be
allowed.  In eight days, nearly 89,000 visitors have come
to the site at Avenida Antonio Bernardino Correa No.
330."
       "The owners are uncomfortable.  'I wasn't expecting
all this.  Sometimes people don't get to sleep.  The
faithful are here until one in the morning, singing and
praying,' complains Antonio da Rosa, the owner of the
house."
       "The behavior of the thousands of faithful pilgrims
is similar.  Eyes fixed on the mysterious image, their
hands hold pamphlets with images of saints, crucifixes,
Bibles and other things.  To avoid riots, 15 municipal
police guards have organized lines so that the faithful
may parade in front of the window."
       "Padre Quevedo, a specialist in paranormal
phenomena, visited the house. To him, the image 'is not
miraculous.  The Church respects and admires such
devotion, but it cannot say that it's a miracle.'"
       "To him, the faithful should wait for scientific
reports before venerating the image."
       "Pilgrims are coming from all over.  Creusa Ferreira
dos Santos, 46, came from Araras (169 kilometers or 102
miles from Sao Paulo--J.T.), moved by her faith.  'It's
worth it.  I went to pray for health for my entire
family,' she said, holding the hand of her son, Caio, 4,
her traveling companion during the two-hour trip."  (See
the newspapers El Universal of Mexico City for July 18,
2002, "Image of the Blessed Virgin appears on a Sao Paulo
window," and La Folha de Sao Paulo for July 22, 2002,
"Visit to the alleged image of the Blessed Virgin Mary
ends in riot."  Muito obrigado a Scott Corrales e Gloria
Coluchi por eso caso.)


FACE OF JESUS APPEARS AT
A CHURCH IN ARGENTINA

       "The strange and mysterious appearance of an image
in a floor mosaic of Our Lord of Miracles Church" in
Metan, a small city in Argentina, "has shaken the local
Roman Catholic population.  Without any logical
explanation, the image materialized from one day to
another with well-defined characteristics" similar to
"the traditional image of the face of Jesus Christ."
       "The figure, which was discovered on the afternoon
of (Tuesday) July 9 (2002) in the area surrounding the
church altar, was found by a group of faithful who were
praying for the country (Argentina) on National
Independence Day."
(Editor's Note:  In fact, the widest street in Buenos
Aires, the capital, is called Avenida Nueve de Julio,
meaning Ninth of July Avenue.)
       "Stunned by the find, the prayer group alerted the
pastor, Monsignor Jose Vicente Tejerina Monserrat, who
did not provide any official information at this moment,
hoping to find a rational explanation for the
phenomenon."
       "However, everything seems to suggest that the
mysterious portrait is molecularly embedded in a 20-
square-centimeter piece of granite, and it has been
impossible to erase it."
       "'This is a call from God, a summons to conversion,
and a blessing for the people of Metan.  The face,' added
the pastor, who is a monsignor and has headed the parish
for 36 years, 'was found on Independence Day, which has a
special meaning.  Jesus is calling on all Argentinians to
reconcile and unite...," but he was unable to continue
his statement to El Tribuno as he was unable to contain
his tears."
       "After composing himself, Msgr. Tejerina Monserrat
noted that 'we are on the verge of celebrating a new
miracle, and this has great meaning.'"
       "Journalists for El Tribuno at the site were able to
ascertain that the portrait consists of a series of
shades of gray on a brown mosaic.  Numerous efforts have
been made to erase the mysterious face, but the image
appears to be part of the stone itself.  The church's
floor consists of granite blocks measuring 20 square
centimeters, alternating in red and brown."  (See the
Argentinian newspaper El Tribuno of Salta for July 12,
2002, "Face of Christ appears on church floor."  Muchas
gracias a Scott Corrales y Alicia Rossi para eso articulo
de diario.)


CROP CIRCLES PROLIFERATE
WORLDWIDE IN JULY

       Following a quiet June, crop circles burst forth in
several countries during July.  Formations were sighted
in Canada, UK, Slovakia and Switzerland.
       On Saturday, July 13, 2002, a crop circle "estimated
at 60 meters (200 feet) long" was found in Erin Township,
Ontario, Canada, about 60 miles (100 kilometers) west of
Toronto.  Although it was "difficult to tell a specific
shape," the formation was surrounded "by other very small
markings nearby (grapeshot--P.A.).  The edges were
reported to be 3  to 4.5 meters (10 to 15 feet) in size,
with some stalks bent over as much as 0.46 meters (1.5
feet) above the ground."
       Six days later, on Friday, July 19, 2002, "randomly
downed areas of crop" were found in other communities of
southern Ontario province, notably near Alliston,
Everett, Richmond Hill, Brampton, Caledon and Nobleton.
       According to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circles
Research Network, the circles "ranged from small to
approximately 'two football fields' (180 meters or 600
feet--J.T.) in diameter, and, as at Erin, featuring
random or quasi-geometric designs, appearing 'maze-like'
and 'rough, circular, squarish, triangular and arrowhead-
shaped."
       On the same Friday, in UK, crop circles appeared in
wheat fields at Alton Barnes, Beckington, Avebury and
Pewsey in Wiltshire.
       From Wiltshire, the crop circle outbreak spread to
Lancashire, Kent and Hertfordshire, with formations
discovered at Ashford, Preston, Alton Priors, Latton
Park, Stanton Bridge and Barbury Castle.
       Also on Saturday, July 13, 2002, "three large crop
circles were discovered at Nitra-Drazovice," about 100
kilometers (60 miles) east of Bratislava in Slovakia.
The formations "were spotted by glider pilots in an
international competition."
       According to cerealogist Miroslav Karlik, "these
crop circles are not faked and would have never been
found if not for the pilots."  He described the
formations as "rings with diameters of 15.3 meters (51
feet), 7.4 meters (24 feet) and 6.3 meters (20 feet),
connected with a 0.5 meter (1.5 foot) wide path, were
only visible from a bird's eye perspective.  No curious
crowds had trampled them, and they could be examined by
the experts."
       On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, "a large crop circle was
found in a farm field" near Baselbiet, Switzerland.  The
field belonged to farmer Hansjoerg Mangold.  According to
the newspaper report, the formation "resembles a key, and
its circular portion has a diameter of 25 meters (82
feet).  Cerealogists have taken samples from the downed
plants in the field."  (See the Swiss newspaper Basler
Zeitung for July 24, 2002.  Many thanks to Paul Anderson
of CCCRN, George A. Filer of MUFON and Daniel Munoz for
these reports.)


OWLS ATTACK CROPDUSTING
PLANES IN SERBIA

       "Aircraft engaged in cropdusting activities in the
region of Pozarevac in eastern Serbia were attacked by
enormous owls during daylight--an unprecedented event in
the region."
       "In the town of Veliki Popovac, in the Mlava River
valley," about 120 kilometers (75 miles) southeast of
Belgrade, "large owls fly during the day and, as soon as
the airplanes approach, hurl themselves against them, a
local source says."
       "Olga Obradovic, a farmer from Veliki Popovac, told
(Serbia's) Radio B-92 that the owls have been nesting
closer to the community in recent months and even inside
of house attics and stable haylofts.  The birds have
expelled the swallows from the Mlava River valley, and
the farmers believe that this is an evil omen."
       In Serbia, "people believe that anyone who kills a
swallow will be punished with the death of their mother,
their daughter or another close female relative."
       "Some villagers believe that the owls are carrying
out acts of retribution for the neglect of certain
abandoned churches in the valley, which are now covered
with vegetation."
       "A newspaper reporter sent to the area says that
enormous owls are attacking cattle in the afternoon,
which encourages the herdsmen to bring them in before
sundown."
       "Area residents believe that the north wind brings
fine dust from radioactive mineral heaps in (neighboring)
Romania.  They think the radiation may have caused
genetic changes in the owl population, who now perceive
aircraft as prey to be attacked, and hence their
attraction to cropdusters."  (See the Balkan newspapers
Glas and Dnevni Avaz for July 17, 2002.  Many thanks to
Milo Kokotovic, Scott Corrales and Gloria Coluchi for the
newspaper articles.)


DIAMOND-SHAPED UFO SEEN
IN MAYFIELD, PENNSYLVANIA

       On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 9 p.m., the male
witness reported, "Me and my friends were sitting on a
(backyard) trampoline waiting to see the fireworks at a
nearby picnic" in Mayfield, Pennsylvania (population
1,756), a town on Interstate Highway I-81 about 15 miles
(25 kilometers) northeast of Scranton.
       Suddenly, "we noticed a fast-moving object, too high
to be considered a jet or an airplane.  It had six lights
around it, and it was somewhat shaped like a baseball
diamond.  Blackish or kinda gray.  Diamond-shaped.
Flying at a high distance (altitude), it arrived from the
south, and flying even higher, it departed to the north."
(Email Form Report)


LUMINOUS RED UFOs SIGHTED
IN LONGUEUIL, QUEBEC

       On Sunday, July 21, 2002, Antoine D., age 22, "was
on my way, walking toward the Mondial-SAQ annual
fireworks show" in Longueuil, Quebec, Canada (population
127,977), just across the St. Lawrence River from
Montreal.  "The show begins at 10 p.m.," he reported, "I
was about 500 meters from the St. Lawrence River,
scanning the sky as usual, and I was lucky enough to
actually witness for the first time in my life what is
without any doubt a UFO."
       "I first saw a non-blinking red light that was
hovering in the sky in plain view, without moving, about
300 to 500 feet (90 to 150 meters) high.  Then it started
moving, and I could see more clearly the form of the
light but not the body to which the light was attached.
It looked like two red lights in the shape of an arch
when the UFO was facing me.  It moved from my right to
the left, came in my direction and departed to the left."
       "It also emitted a speck of white or multi-coloured
light two or three times in front of the main red light
(no regular intervals of time between the illuminations--
A.D.)   Also, there seemed to be another 'ship' that
appeared just behind it at the same time while it was
moving, (the newcomer) showing two bright white lights.
Since I was looking at the first one, I didn't follow the
second one  (It didn't move--A.D.) and when I looked
back, it was gone, but the first one was still on the
horizon, going away."
       "I can't say for sure, but the red-light UFO was
about the size of one or two small planes.  It did not
make any noise during the whole sighting and flew 30
percent faster than any plane.  But this thing didn't
look like any plane at all.  It didn't seem to float in
the air but rather to cut effortlessly through it, more
like levitating than flying.  I watched it for a good
four to five minutes."  (Email Form Report)


MYSTERIOUS HUM DISTURBS
VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA

       "A mysterious hum is rattling the brains and
destroying the sleep of some Victoria residents."
       "The hum--like the low rumble of a diesel engine,
some say--has been more than a daily annoyance to at
least 40 people.  Many sufferers blame it for chronic
headaches, nausea, insomnia, devastating fatigue and
joint pain."
       "'It's hard to sustain an effort against the
unknown,' said Bernard McCarron, a retired Vic High
English teacher who started hearing the hum in 1996."
       "McCarron organized a loosely-based organization in
1997 for other residents harried by the hum.  At its
peak, there were about 40 members, made up mostly of
seniors but also including some children."
       "There are now only about 20 members in the group,
and they communicate mostly by email or telephone."
       "McCarron is confident that a new study in the U.S.
may bring some legitimacy to local sufferers.
Commissioned by the City Council of Kokomo, Indiana
(USA), investigators will try to find the source of the
hum there.  Sufferers in (Kokomo) this city of 40,000
have been complaining for years about a low, grumbling
sound similar to the one heard in Victoria," British
Columbia, Canada.  (See the Victoria, B.C. Times-Colonist
for July 18, 2002, "Mysterious hum bedevils victims."
Many thanks to Louise A. Lowry for this news story.)
(Editor's Note: For more on the Kokomo hum, see UFO
Roundup, volume 7, number 22 for May 28, 2002,
"Mysterious hum heard in Kokomo, Indiana," page 5.)


       That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news, brought to you by
"the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup ."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from
UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided
that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name
and list the date of issue in which the item first
appeared.


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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                    Review: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:43:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:49:06 -0400
Subject: Review: Britain's Secret UFO Hunters


I have written a synopsis of the programme, together with some
observations. Anyone interested can read it at:

http://www.ufology.org.uk/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=15

Critique welcomed!


Regards,

Joe








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                              Assembly Required

From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:52:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:50:14 -0400
Subject: Assembly Required


http://www.ufowatchdog.com/assembly.html








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 31

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:53:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:53:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:02:08 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:17:51 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >I have been in the UFO side of things since the 70s. Whether on
 >this List, or in the writings of the skeptibunkers and others
 >they always and continually fall back on (big pelican-squawk
 >here): the witness did not in fact see what they claimed to have
 >seen, so in essence they were either mistaken, or it was a hoax,
 >or Venus, weather balloon, and so on, and hence their testimony
 >should be disregarded.

Robert:

I would change "disregarded" to "taken with a grain of salt."

 >Now if a witness claimed to have seen a meteor, described the
 >encounter (even though it may have been only two or three
 >seconds) the skeptibunkers would instantly have pelican-drool
 >running all over themselves and tell us how the witness
 >correctly, saw, identified, and their was no question that it
 >was a meteor.

Yeah, lots of those seen nightly, even bright ones in the daytime.

 >As I asked before, has anybody ever heard a skeptibunker ever,
 >ever, question the reliability of a witness if they witnessed
 >anything (kidnapping, meteor, car wreck) other then a UFO? I
 >would be interested if any skeptic has personally challenged the
 >testimony of a witness to a meteor, car wreck, or anything
 >non-UFO? It is highly probable that this has never happened. >>

Then we wouldn't be skeptics, would we?


Clear skies,

Bob Young

Essentia non sunt
multiplicanda praeter necessitatem








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Jul > Jul 31

               Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:53:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:33:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case -


 >From: Catherine Reason <CathyM@ukf.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:36:43 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:57:29 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Eyewitness Testimony And The Runnion Case

<snip>

 >>I don't quite catch on, here. How does accumulated noise,
 >>presumeably from accumulated studies, end up creating a positive
 >>result?

 >It's a filtering effect.

 >Results in experimental psychology are evaluated using
 >inferential statistics. A result is considered significant if
 >it is sufficiently large, that it would be consistent with a
 >null hypothesis of "no effect" only at or below a given level of
 >probability (referred to as the significance level).

 >However, since one cannot affirm a null hypothesis under these
 >circumstances, a negative result (or failure to reach
 >significance) is not considered meaningful and so cannot
 >normally be published.

 >Inevitably then, "significance" can accumulate in publication
 >through noise alone, since no-one knows how many failed attempts
 >at replication remain unpublished.

 >Worse than this, though, is the problem that if positive results
 >occur due to experimental error or demand bias, the
 >corresponding experiments in which these errors or biases are
 >corrected, and which consequently don't produce "positive"
 >results, are unpublishable. This makes it especially difficult
 >to eliminate experimental bias or demand characteristics from
 >psychological research.

I understand. You know, this is a lot like what has happened in
'Ufology'. Pro-UFOers seldom publish negative case studies. Many
adamently claim that the IFOs are of no significance, while they
suggest that the preponderance of evidence (but no single proven
TRUFO) makes their case.


Clear skies,

Bob Young

  Happy skywatching

  Cathy