UFO UpDates
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   May

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  May 2003

  May 1:

   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Stan Friedman [52]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming - Lan Fleming [245]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Chris Parr [13]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [121]
   Strange Memphis UFO Case Still Unsolved - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Groff - Terry Groff [33]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Robert Frola [28]
   Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [56]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Roy Hale [35]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg - James Oberg [202]
   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Velez - John Velez [68]
   Secrecy News -- 05/01/03 - Steven Aftergood [45]
   Re: The Origins Of Biblical Tales - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [79]
   Another Collegial Appeal To The DOI FOIA Foilers - overtci@cavtel.net
   [33]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg - James Oberg [22]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Max Burns [32]
   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [39]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Robert Gates [19]
   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - King - Tom King [42]
   The Truth About The Triangle - UFO UpDates - Toronto [175]
   London UK UFO TV Programme 05-02-03 - John Hayes [44]
   CCCRN News: New CCCRN Web Site - Paul Anderson [56]
   Re: The Truth About The Triangle - Sandow - Greg Sandow [17]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 17 - John Hayes [319]

  May 2:

   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kimball - Paul Kimball [73]
   Re: The Truth About The Triangle - McCoy - GT McCoy [29]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming - Lan Fleming [253]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Myers - Royce J. Myers III - The
   Watchdog [103]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 391 - Edoardo Russo [95]
   Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Martin Shough [67]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming - Lan Fleming [22]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Anthony - Gary Anthony [30]
   Re: The Truth About The Triangle - Ledger - Don Ledger [83]
   Two NIDS 'Day After' Surveys - Colm Kelleher [80]
   UFO Abduction Possible In UFO Case - UFO UpDates - Toronto [44]
   UFO Festival Probes Possibility Of Alien Life - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [48]
   Why We Are Not Like ET - UFO UpDates - Toronto [73]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [34]

  May 3:

   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studie - - Dave Sadler [25]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg - James Oberg [85]
   UFO 'Detector' - Terry Groff [10]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Chris Parr [28]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch - Larry Hatch [53]
   PRA - 'Lore Of The Rings' - Dr Ron Barnett [156]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 392 - Edoardo Russo [101]
   Re: UFO 'Detector' - White - Eleanor White [19]
   Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming - Lan Fleming [88]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White - Eleanor White [22]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Max Burns [56]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Andy Roberts [31]
   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Hall - Richard Hall [85]
   Re: UFO 'Detector' - Hatch - Larry Hatch [60]
   UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Amy Hebert [159]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [30]

  May 4:

   Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Jacobson - Eric Jacobson [43]
   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [70]
   Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Diane Harrison [64]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch - Larry Hatch [41]
   CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies - Mac Tonnies [31]
   Sphere Over 3 British Columbia Communities - Brian Vike - HBCCUFO [169]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Barry Taylor [102]
   Re: FO Duck Hunting UpDate - Taylor - Barry Taylor [80]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [54]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [81]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Bright - Dan Bright [96]
   Re: New At Magonia - Rimmer - John Rimmer [15]
   Rael In UFO Magazine - Gildas Bourdais [36]
   Oberg's STS-48 'Original Report' - Lan Fleming [46]
   More UFO Research Software - Grant Cameron [13]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Brenda Denzler [36]
   Re: CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch - Larry Hatch [67]
   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [58]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Robert Frola [76]
   Re: UFO 'Detector' - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [98]
   NC Couple Reports Seeing UFO Wednesday Night - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [42]

  May 5:

   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Bowden - Tom Bowden [8]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [64]
   Re: UFO 'Detector' - Hatch - Larry Hatch [75]
   Re: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Stuart - Chaz Stuart [23]
   UFOs Taped Over Baghdad? - Chaz Stuart [16]
   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [21]
   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [26]

  May 6:

   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [25]
   Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Stan Romanek [25]
   'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of - James Fox [16]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King - Tom King [75]
   $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Kenny Young [10]
   Re: UFO 'Detector' - Groff - Terry Groff [26]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Hebert - Amy Hebert [130]
   Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [47]
   Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies - - Robert Frola [94]
   Secrecy News -- 05/06/03 - Steven Aftergood [153]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White - Eleanor White [13]
   Re: 'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of - Stephen G. Bassett
   [18]
   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [11]
   Re: $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Hall - Richard Hall [20]
   Re: $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Gates - Robert Gates [17]
   Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Ray Stanford [80]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - White - Eleanor White [16]
   They're Out There... In The Suburbs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [49]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [75]
   Re: Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Rogers - Ian Rogers [64]
   Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gates - Robert Gates [17]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [113]

  May 7:

   McMinnville's UFO Festival Features - UFO UpDates - Toronto [110]
   Roswell UFO Festival Changes - UFO UpDates - Toronto [50]
   FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151 - Larry W. Bryant [39]
   Re: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Harrison - Diane Harrison
   [56]
   Re: UFO 'Detector' - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [26]
   Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [56]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Romanek - Stan Romanek [26]
   Filer's Files #19 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [508]
   Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Ticchetti - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [48]
   IFOs 101 - Amy Hebert [11]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King - Tom King [89]
   Re: Roswell UFO Festival Changes - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [20]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - King - Tom King [24]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White - Eleanor White [56]
   Learn More About Meteors & Meteorites - Ray Stanford [13]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - White - Eleanor White [50]
   Re: IFOs 101 - Carr - Scott C. Carr [11]
   New Mexico Rock Samples - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [41]
   Re: IFOs 101 - Groff - Terry Groff [14]

  May 8:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 18 - John Hayes [573]
   Huge Contrail Sighting - Scott Caput [8]
   Re: IFOs 101 - McCoy - GT McCoy [19]
   Re: IFOs 101 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25]
   What Are They & What Do They Want? - Alain Schmitt [28]
   FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151 - Larry W. Bryant [45]
   Conference on Security Technology & Privacy - Larry W. Bryant [55]
   Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - McCoy - GT McCoy [19]
   Re: IFOs 101 - Hall - Richard Hall [20]
   Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King - Tom King [47]

  May 9:

   Another Pro-Waiver Researcher Chimes In - Larry W. Bryant [13]
   Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [45]
   Re: Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [120]
   Leveland, TX News Story Nov. 3, 1957 - Wendy Connors [19]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [56]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Koch - Joachim Koch [19]
   23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - Eleanor White [9]
   Cuban Ufologists: A Review - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [49]
   IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Amy Hebert [16]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [32]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [35]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [27]
   Lawmakers Seek Access To NASA Testimony - UFO UpDates - Toronto [107]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - - Ray Stanford [46]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [21]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez - John Velez [57]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [80]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - John [52]
   'Skeptic' Magazine: More Of The Same - Mac Tonnies [22]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford - Ray Stanford [147]

  May 10:

   Is Someone There? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [171]
   Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - Caput - Scott Caput [36]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [11]
   Secrecy News -- 05/09/03 - Steven Aftergood [178]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford - Ray Stanford [23]
   Re: Leveland, TX News Story Nov. 3, 1957 - Stanford - Ray Stanford [21]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Bill Hamilton [60]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Mac Tonnies [21]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Koch - Joachim Koch [34]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Jim Deardorff [25]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [235]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [49]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [30]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Larry Hatch [92]
   Re: Is Someone There? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [38]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [38]
   Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03 - Larry Hatch [70]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Terry Groff [52]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Ian Rogers [37]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [26]
   The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Walt Spivey Jr. [30]
   UFOs In Africa? - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [10]
   Re: Is Someone There? - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [49]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Ian Rogers [49]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers - Ian Rogers [48]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford - Ray Stanford [396]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Mac Tonnies [29]
   Re: Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03 - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [18]
   Subject: DOI Appeal No. 2003-151 Snowballs Via The - Larry W. Bryant
   [34]
   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Shough - Martin Shough [73]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rubtsov - Vladimir Rubtsov [26]
   Chasing Papers On Andrews AFB's 7/26/02 UFO Chase - Larry W. Bryant
   [101]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White - Eleanor White [18]
   Re: 'The Ultimate Alien Agenda' (Review) - Mac Tonnies [35]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [73]

  May 11:

   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [42]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers - Ian Rogers [21]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Robert Gates [24]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [25]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gates - Robert Gates [44]
   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Cammack - Diana Cammack [17]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [27]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez - John Velez [133]
   Re: Is Someone There? - Cammack - Diana Cammack [42]
   Larry Bryant's Journalistic Status - Larry W. Bryant [39]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Re: Is Someone There? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [62]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Larry Hatch [70]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - James Oberg [58]

  May 12:

   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - McCoy - GT McCoy [67]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Dabrowski - Andrew Dabrowski [31]
   Deconstructing Reality - Jones - Sean Jones [40]

  May 11:

   Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [70]

  May 12:

   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [17]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Larry Hatch [66]
   'Frank M'? - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [6]
   Secrecy News -- 05/12/03 - Steven Aftergood [129]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [149]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Greg Sandow [45]
   World UFO Tour On Internet UFO TV Programme - Bill Chalker [21]
   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [26]
   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [25]
   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Rosales - Albert Rosales [23]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Bill Hamilton [30]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [48]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: Deconstructing Reality - Hall - Richard Hall [51]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [47]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Ian Rogers [31]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [39]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [39]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers - Ian Rogers [55]
   Re: Deconstructing Reality - Rolfe - Chris Rolfe [79]
   The Quest For Truth About UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [108]
   Fun No Alien To Rachel - UFO UpDates - Toronto [83]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Jacobson - Eric Jacobson [57]

  May 13:

   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [26]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Edoardo Russo [88]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [334]
   Taken For A Ride - John W. Auchettl [67]
   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [29]
   Brazilian UFO & Hoaxer Cases At Seattle Conference - A.J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [14]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [75]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [33]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [31]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Groff - Terry Groff [22]
   FOIA Request To NASA Re Shuttle Columbia Disaster - Larry W. Bryant
   [51]
   Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [36]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez - John Velez [97]
   Re: Taken For A Ride - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [21]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [58]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 19 - John Hayes [623]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White - Eleanor White [21]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry - Louise A. Lowry [16]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White - Eleanor White [20]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [75]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [33]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Cuoghi - Diego Cuoghi [29]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Bright - Dan Bright [84]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [31]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Cuoghi - Diego Cuoghi [14]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger - Don Ledger [40]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger - Don Ledger [37]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [401]
   Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [11]
   Re: Request For Cost Estimate For A NASA-Expose Ad - Larry W. Bryant
   [19]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall - Richard Hall [63]
   Re: Taken For A Ride - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [42]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - - Colin Stevenson [34]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [119]

  May 14:

   Writ Of Habeas Corpus Extraterrestrial - Eustaquio Anddraa Patounas
   [305]
   Secret KGB UFO Hoo-Ha - Chris Burns [6]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Rogers - Ian Rogers [20]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [68]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Ian Rogers [42]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Ian Rogers [33]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [58]
   Re: he U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers - Ian Rogers [35]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [51]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers - Ian Rogers [34]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford - Ray Stanford [121]
   IFO's 101 - Case #2 - Amy Hebert [16]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Larry Hatch [48]
   Another Abduction Question - Luis R. Gonzalez [17]
   Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated - Scitt Corrales [17]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21]

  May 15:

   Secrecy News -- 05/14/03 - Steven Aftergood [175]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Richard Hall [71]
   Filer's Files #20 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [527]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry - Louise A. Lowry [22]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez - John Velez [57]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez - John Velez [84]
   Mack/Jamieson 'Shamanic Journeys & UFO Encounters' - Will Beuche -
   Center for Psychology & Social Change [47]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [48]
   Re: Taken For A Ride - Velez - John Velez [54]
   DOI Seek More Appeal Time - Larry W. Bryant [50]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [95]
   Send Your Name To Comet Temple 1 - Nick Balaskas [15]
   UFO Conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia - Don Ledger [17]
   Terrace British Columbia - 05-09-03 - Brian Vike - HBCCUFO [32]
   Re: Another Abduction Question - Hatch - Larry Hatch [27]
   JLA: Identify Theft - Jan Aldrich [12]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry - Louise A. Lowry [30]
   UFO Plan Sparks War Of Words - UFO UpDates - Toronto [49]
   'Aliens' In McMinnville - UFO UpDates - Toronto [92]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [98]
   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [177]
   UFOs & Scandinavia? - Thiago Ticchetti [13]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez - John Velez [69]
   Hybrid Ultra Large Aircraft R&D Project - Joel Carpenter [47]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - - Colin Stevenson [43]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [172]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [39]
   The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [255]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White - Eleanor White [19]

  May 16:

   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [31]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [28]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [22]
   'Lifters' Look Very Interesting - Steven Kaeser [5]
   Re: UFOs & Scandinavia? - Cunha - Pedro Luz Cunha [18]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [18]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - Eleanor White [25]
   Crop Circles Puzzle Queensland Farmer - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [20]
   Re: The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law - Groff - Terry Groff [23]
   UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Robert Gates [97]
   CI: The Face on Mars: Where Would "Skeptics" Be - Mac Tonnies [155]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - King - Tom King [206]
   Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Ledger - Don Ledger [61]
   Re: Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated - - Nick Balaskas [46]
   More Terrace, B.C. Sightings - Brian Vike - HBCCUFO [50]
   Rods Exposed - Amy Hebert [32]
   University Profs Not Above 'Superstition' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [59]
   Secrecy News -- 05/16/03 - Steven Aftergood [141]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Gates - Robert Gates [38]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Stanford - Ray Stanford [26]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Bright - Dan Bright [37]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Ledger - Don Ledger [16]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [409]
   Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Hatch - Larry Hatch [28]
   Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Santiago Yturria [36]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [29]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers - Ian Rogers [40]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - James Oberg [13]
   JANAP - 50 years - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [91]

  May 17:

   Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [36]

  May 16:

   Re: Rods Exposed - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [14]

  May 17:

   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - John Velez [63]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [29]
   New At Roswell Proof Site - David Rudiak [36]
   Re: 'Frank M'? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [71]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - King - Tom King [116]
   Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - Lan Fleming [36]
   More On 'Crop Circle' At Glass House Mountains, Oz - Bill Chalker [81]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert - Amy Hebert [44]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [81]
   Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Hebert - Amy Hebert [78]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch - Larry Hatch [42]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [43]
   A David Jacobs Case - Eustquio Anddrea Patounas [106]

  May 18:

   Re: Rods Exposed - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista [30]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Herbiet - Noel Herbiet [44]
   Re: JANAP - 50 years - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [105]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Bright - Dan Bright [20]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Groff - Terry Groff [19]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [25]
   New Scientific Journal - Joaquim Fernandes [32]
   Re: A David Jacobs Case - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? - - James Oberg [23]
   Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Yturria - Santiago Yturria [75]
   Re: New At Roswell Proof Site - Rudiak - David Rudiak [32]
   Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Gates - Robert Gates [64]

  May 19:

   UK Ufology - Scandal In The Wind? - Chris Parr [21]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [78]
   STS-48 & Larry King - Don Ecker [345]
   Skeptics - An Editorial - Don Ecker [187]
   CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA? - Mac Tonnies [51]
   A Professional Hypnotherapist? - Michael Harman [11]
   CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Mac Tonnies [14]
   CI: Processed Version of e_1701041.imq.jpg At MSSS - Mac Tonnies [58]

  May 20:

   Secrecy News -- 05/20/03 - Steven Aftergood [98]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert - Amy Hebert [61]
   "... I was never abducted!" Armando Valdes - Eustaquio Anddraa Patounas
   [57]
   Swamp Gas - Wendy Connors [17]
   De-mystifying Aliens Troubles Abductees - Eustquio Anddrea Patounas
   [142]

  May 19:

   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall - Richard Hall [134]

  May 20:

   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [17]
   Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Velez - John Velez [26]
   Re: CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA? - Mac Tonnies [27]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 20 - John Hayes [479]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Dabrowski - Andrew Dabrowski [35]
   In Support Of Larry W. Bryant's Appeal - Larry W. Bryant [53]
   Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Hall - Richard Hall [36]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [53]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [15]
   Re: Swamp Gas - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [28]
   UFO Over Baku Azerbaijan Again - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [49]
   Ufology & Theological Clarifications - Eustquio Anddrea Patounas [322]

  May 21:

   Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [44]
   Re: Swamp Gas - Connors - Wendy Connors [33]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Kelly - Ken Kelly [20]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Gates - Robert Gates [32]
   Re: Swamp Gas - Heath - Gord Heath [42]
   Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Hatch - Larry Hatch [71]
   Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Fleming - Lan Fleming [58]
   Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Ecker - Don Ecker [25]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Harmon - Michael Harman [57]
   Colin Norris? - Ken Potts [4]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger - Don Ledger [26]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Amy Hebert [137]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall - Richard Hall [37]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert - Richard Hall [66]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Bassett - Steven G. Bassett [28]

  May 22:

   Filer's Files #21 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [535]
   Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Santiago Yturria [138]
   Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - White - Eleanor White [27]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [24]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers - Ian Rogers [19]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [124]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Friedman - Stan Friedman [14]
   Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg - James Oberg [49]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Oberg - James Oberg [21]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Friedman - Stan Friedman [49]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - James Oberg [103]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [79]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48 - James Oberg [78]
   Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [33]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [221]
   Mars Unearthed - ken kelly [5]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [34]
   'Chariots Of The Gods' Land in Swiss Alps - UFO UpDates - Toronto [100]
   Taking A Shot At Einstein - UFO UpDates - Toronto [196]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [52]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Oberg - James Oberg [14]
   Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [38]
   Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [49]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - Lan Fleming [122]
   Re: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [31]
   Re: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger - Don Ledger [52]
   Secrecy News -- 05/22/03 - Steven Aftergood [209]
   Eight Fingered Aliens [was: Re: Alleged Russian - Ray Stanford [73]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Dabrowski - Andrew Dabrowski [42]
   Re: Swamp Gas - Connors - Wendy Connors [53]
   'Strange... Days Indeed' Archive Adds - Errol Bruce-Knapp [18]

  May 23:

   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - James Oberg [21]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - James Oberg [25]
   Cold Fusion Debate - Terry Blanton [14]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman - Stan Friedman [67]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Ecker - Don Ecker [37]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [36]
   Re: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48 - Lan Fleming [89]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Kelly - Ken Kelly [17]
   First Picture Of Earth From Mars - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [1]
   Photos Of Azerbaijan UFO Online - Chaz Stuart [3]
   Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Chaz Stuart [14]
   Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Hebert - Amy Hebert [71]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert - Amy Hebert [38]
   Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [38]
   Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [113]
   Multi-levels Of The Multiverse - Bill Hamilton [72]
   Whither NASA's Naked Emperor: Let the - Larry W. Bryant [25]
   Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [39]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers - Ian Rogers [45]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - Mark Carlotto [38]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - Lan Fleming [47]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21]
   Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [13]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - James Oberg [33]
   Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Rogers - Ian Rogers [9]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - James Oberg [51]
   Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Yturria - Santiago Yturria
   [76]

  May 24:

   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - James Oberg [86]
   Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [70]
   Waterfalls On Mars? - Eustaquio Anddre=E9a Patounas [2]
   Unusual Lenticular Cloud Formations - Terry Groff [11]
   Re: Multi-levels Of The Multiverse - Hatch - Larry Hatch [67]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Velez - John Velez [162]
   Liquid Water On Mars - Ken Kelly [15]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch - Larry Hatch [30]
   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [52]
   Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - - Colin Stevenson [21]
   Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! - - Lan Fleming [184]
   Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Ballester Olmos - Vicente-Juan
   Ballester Olmos [13]

  May 25:

   Abydos Helicopter - Jiri Mruzek [8]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rimmer - John Rimmer [150]
   CI: A Martian's-Eye View of Earth - Mac Tonnies [46]
   CEs With Aliens & Other Fallacies - Eustequio Anddrea Patounas [50]
   More Calves Mutilated Argentina - Scott Corrales [34]
   Argentine Researchers Find Intraterrestrial Waves - Scott Corrales [52]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [76]
   Chile: The Skeptical Wing of Ufology - Scott Corrales [93]
   Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - McCoy - GT McCoy [28]
   UFO Encounter Near Booger Bottom - Eustequio Anddrea Patounas [75]

  May 26:

   Re: Edwards AFB 1965 - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [43]
   Re: CI: A Curious Cydonia Formation Revisited - - Mac Tonnies [60]
   Re: Baku Photo - Stuart - Chaz Stuart [34]
   Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Victor Viggiani [145]
   Spirits Soar At Conclave On UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [77]
   'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [78]
   You're Reading This? The World Didn't End Last - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [315]
   Poll Shows Asians Believe In Aliens - UFO UpDates - Toronto [19]
   Skeptical Stuff - UFO UpDates - Toronto [23]

  May 27:

   Unidentified Submarine Object? - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [18]
   Re: Baku Photo - Hatch - Larry Hatch [35]
   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [42]
   Our 'Final Hour' - Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas [57]
   Re: Eight Fingered Aliens - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [105]
   Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [76]
   Re: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [51]
   Re: Abydos Helicopter - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [35]
   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Bassett - Stephen Bassett [107]
   Kansas Crop Circles? - Chaz Stuart [13]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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                 Re: The Origins Of Biblical Tales - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:19:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 15:54:39 -0400
Subject: Re: The Origins Of Biblical Tales - Gehrman


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:00:35 +0200
 >Subject: Re: The Origins Of Biblical Tales

 >>From: Jason Martell <Jason@Xfacts.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:26:05 -0700
 >>Subject: The Origins Of Biblical Tales

 >Of course my ancestors, the Canaanites (later the Hebrews)
 >migrated from Ur in Mesopotamia to what is now Israel. They
 >adapted many of the stories of the Mesopotamian myths into the
 >writing of the old testament of the bible. My ancestors were
 >even egotistical enough to claim that there was one God and they
 >were the chosen people to receive Moses's covenant with this one
 >anthropomorphic male God. Then, if one believes the old
 >testament, they went around with that covenant and killed all
 >the pagans, including women and children, who did not believe in
 >the covenant. Unfortunately they twisted the mesopotamian basis
 >of Genesis, Adam and Eve into guilt trips and formed a vengeful
 >God to be appeased at all costs.

 >Well, I'll be damned. :-) I don't even believe in my own
 >religion and I am a happy heathen. Do Gods have to retire at a
 >certain age? Maybe that is why they change over time? Do they
 >die? Maybe the one God was just some kind of orphan after all
 >the Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses died? Are they buried
 >somewhere beyond old clay tablets and old books?

Josh,

Good question:

http://nowscape.com/atheism/dead_gods.htm

H.L. Mencken

Where is the graveyard of dead gods? What lingering mourner
waters their mounds? There was a time when Jupiter was the king
of the gods, and any man who doubted his puissance was ipso
facto a barbarian and an ignoramus.

But where in all the world is there a man who worships Jupiter
today? And who of Huitzilopochtli? In one year - and it is no
more than five hundred years ago - 50,000 youths and maidens
were slain in sacrifice to him. Today, if he is remembered at
all, it is only by some vagrant savage in the depths of the
Mexican forest.

Huitzilopochtli, like many other gods, had no human father; his
mother was a virtuous widow; he was born of an apparently
innocent flirtation that she carried out with the sun. When he
frowned, his father, the sun, stood still. When he roared with
rage, earthquakes engulfed whole cities. When he thirsted he was
watered with 10,000 gallons of human blood. But today
Huitzilopochtli is as magnificently forgotten as Allen G.
Thurman.

.... Speaking of Huitzilopochtli recalls his brother
Tezcatilpoca. Tezcatilpoca was almost as powerful; he consumed
25,000 virgins a year. Lead me to his tomb: I would weep, and
hang a couronne des perles. But who knows where it is? Or where
the grave of Quitzalcoatl is? Or Xiehtecuthli? Or Centeotl, that
sweet one? Or Tlazolteotl, the goddess of love? Of Mictlan? Or
Xipe? Or all the host of Tzitzimitles? Where are their bones?
Where is the willow on which they hung their harps? In what
forlorn and unheard-of Hell do they await their resurrection
morn? Who enjoys their residuary estates?

Or that of Dis, whom Caesar found to be the chief god of the
Celts? Of that of Tarves, the bull? Or that of Moccos, the pig?
Or that of Epona, the mare? Or that of Mullo, the celestial
jackass? There was a time when the Irish revered all these gods,
but today even the drunkest Irishman laughs at them.

But they have company in oblivion: the Hell of dead gods is as
crowded as the Presbyterian Hell for babies. Damona is there,
and Esus, and Drunemeton, and Silvana, and Dervones, and
Adsalluta, and Deva, and Belisima, and Uxellimus, and Borvo, and
Grannos, and Mogons. All mighty gods in their day, worshipped by
millions, full of demands and impositions, able to bind and
loose - all gods of the first class. Men labored for generations
to build vast temples to them - temples with stones as large as
hay-wagons.

The business of interpreting their whims occupied thousands of
priests, bishops, archbishops. To doubt them was to die, usually
at the stake.

Armies took to the field to defend them against infidels;
villages were burned, women and children butchered, cattle were
driven off. Yet in the end they all withered and died, and today
there is none so poor to do them reverence .








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   May > May 1

              Another Collegial Appeal To The DOI FOIA Foilers

From: overtci@cavtel.net
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:34:09 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 15:58:26 -0400
Subject: Another Collegial Appeal To The DOI FOIA Foilers



To: osfoia@nbc.gov
From: Patrick Huyghe <huyghe@anomalist.com>
Subject: My Support of Larry W. Bryant's DOI Appeal No. 2003-151

TO: WHOM IT MAY CONCERN (Mr. William W. Wolf, FOIA Appeals
Officer for the Dept. of the Interior, et al.):

When writer and "UFO journalist" Larry W. Bryant submits
freedom-of-information requests to federal agencies, he expects
to receive fair, comprehensive, truthful, and timely processing
of those requests -- including the granting of appropriate
records-search and review-fee waivers. It's what all writers and
journalists expect--myself included.

Spanning several decades now, my personal knowledge of Mr.
Bryant's writing and news-gathering skills, knowledge, and
experience readily convinces me that he deserves your agency's
full recognition of, and deference to, his past, current, and
future journalistic endeavors in the field of UFO research,
analysis, and news dissemination. For example, Chapter 7 of my
book "Swamp Gas Times: My Two Decades on the UFO Beat" (Paraview
Press -- June 2001) recounts how Mr. Bryant's UFO-litigation
efforts have earned him a special niche in the annals of serious
UFO research.

Mr. Bryant knows how much I continue to value his intellectual
pursuit of this subject, which has too often been plagued by
public misunderstanding and by governmental attempts to
marginalize both his work and his persona. And now you know,
too.

Equipped with this knowledge, you now have the distinct
obligation to grant Mr. Bryant's appeal forthwith. Should you
fail to do so, please take notice that I encourage him to
include this letter as expert testimony on his behalf if and
when he seeks redress within the federal court system.


Patrick Huyghe
Editor, The Anomalist





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   May > May 1

                     Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:58:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:06:59 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:50:43 -0500
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>Orbital sunrise was a process that takes over 30 seconds...

 >While there is certainly a limb brightening which precedes the
 >appearance of the Sun, the illumination it provides is minor
 >compared to the higher levels which begin abruptly when the
 >solar disk clears the horizon. The sun is half a degree across,
 >and the Shuttle's angular motion was 4 degrees per minute, so
 >the full brightening - once it begins - takes about seven
 >seconds. For the purposes of this study - the sudden surge of
 >brightness of an illuminated object - the obvious physical event
 >is the moment the solar disk first becomes visible, not halfway
 >through it (an unmeasurable point from observation of object
 >brightness alone).

Correction: This 7 seconds is the minimum time, when the Sun's
apparent motion is perpendicular to the horizon (this
corresponds to an orbital 'Beta Angle' of zero). When it is off
to the left or right of orbital motion, the motion relative to
the horizon is slanted, and consequently the full sunrise can
indeed take somewhat longer.







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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:51:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:09:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:17:23 +0100
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >>From: Chris Parr <parros@roswelldog.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:18:17 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 ><snip>

 >>I am disappointed that Mr Hale and Mr Burns have focused on my
 >>comments as a personal attack on UFO Magazine UFO investigator
 >>of the year Sharon Larkin.

 >Hello Mr Parr,

 >Firstly, I speak for myself, I am sure that Max does also, so
 >please let us not try to make " teams" out of this debate.

As far as I am concerned whomever wins awards, there will be
some who agree, some will disagree, and some who have no opinion
on the awarded. That's the way it is. It is impossible to please
all of the people all of the time.

 >>There may be substantial evidence of this UK ufologist being
 >>caught red-handed in several attempts to gain notoriety in the
 >>ufological domain via the common falsehood of the imaginary
 >>witness or pure X-FILES fantasy and fabrication.

 >Please publicly put your evidence out to the World UFO
 >community, I take it you have been compiling this dossier on
 >Miss Larkin? If you feel that Miss Larkin has done Ufology a
 >great dis service, then by all means place your cards on the
 >table, because I am sick to the back teeth of this in fighting,
 >seemingly brought about by a simple piece of moulded plastic. Or
 >is this something more deeper?

Let's see it then?


Max







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                    Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:50:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:11:13 -0400
Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kaeser


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 02:18:45 -0500
 >Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:15:21 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

Richard wrote:

 >>I have declined to sign the release on several grounds,
 >>primarily no offer of compensation and objections to their
 >>request for carte blanche permission to do anything they damn
 >>well please with the interview(s) I did 5 or more years ago
 >>while I have no say whatsoever about which one(s), how they are
 >>edited, or what context thet are placed in. Sorry, I am no
 >>longer contributing freebies to profit-making outfits who
 >>exploit me as they please and allow me nothing in return. They
 >>seem to think that I (we) should be pleased to appear on their
 >>programs regardless of any other considerations, but they are
 >>very wrong at least in my case.

Terry commented:

 >I think it's a wise move to decline signing especially since
 >they offered no proof that they were affiliated with "Sightings"
 >in any way. I would wait until they specify which interview
 >they're going to use and the manner in which they will use it. I
 >would also negotiate a "first refusal" right in case they try to
 >use your material in a manner not approved by you.

I'm surprised that they asked in the first place. I've found
that a number of "Documentaries" use older material and often
don't bother to ask for permission. That this production company
went through the motion of seeking permission shows a certain
amount of concern that a number of independant producers
apparently don't have.

Unfortunately, the refusal of a few good researchers to allow
their material to be used won't stem the flow of others
scrambling for the microphone and camera. This genre has no
shortage of those seeking publicity and the potential audiance
won't know the difference.

Steve








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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 14:55:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:12:53 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Chris Parr <parros@roswelldog.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:18:17 +0100
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >I am disappointed that Mr Hale and Mr Burns have focused on my
 >comments as a personal attack on UFO Magazine UFO investigator
 >of the year Sharon Larkin.

 >There may be substantial evidence of this UK ufologist being
 >caught red-handed in several attempts to gain noteriety in
 >the
 >ufological domain via the common falsehood of the imaginary
 >witness or pure X-FILES fantasy and fabrication.

Hi Chris,

I have no dog in this hunt so to speak. I would observe that the
operative phrase seems to be "may be" I would be interested in
hearing about this so called "substantial evidence" or whatever
tales and stories are being told around.


Cheers,

Robert








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                     Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 19:08:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:15:20 -0400
Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - King


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:15:21 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

<snip>

 >Michel, Tom, and Listers:

 >Within the past few days I received a letter from an outfit
 >called "First Television" in Los Angeles, Calif., stating that
 >they were producing a new show called "Unexplained Mysteries"
 >which (they said) "is an updated version of 'Sightings'." They
 >enclosed a release form which they asked me to sign so they
 >could use one (unspecified) of the many "Sightings" interviews I
 >did in the past. "Sightings" always treated me fairly, and
 >generally did good quality work on their UFO segments.

 >I have declined to sign the release on several grounds,
 >primarily no offer of compensation and objections to their
 >request for carte blanche permission to do anything they damn
 >well please with the interview(s) I did 5 or more years ago
 >while I have no say whatsoever about which one(s), how they are
 >edited, or what context thet are placed in. Sorry, I am no
 >longer contributing freebies to profit-making outfits who
 >exploit me as they please and allow me nothing in return. They
 >seem to think that I (we) should be pleased to appear on their
 >programs regardless of any other considerations, but they are
 >very wrong at least in my case.

I know of many people that never turn down TV interviews in
order to keep their face on small screen. If you find out the
production company is in California, or LA, then run like hell.
I have never, and I repeat NEVER dealt with any production
company from LA that is very honest.

I never sign 'the first contract' they send. Its standard issue
'steal the rights to your property' contracts they hope
inexperienced people sign. Always put in a date that expires and
need to be renegotiated to keep your out of syndication. Also
make sure you get copies with their signatures (notarized) so
you can sue them later after they rip you off.

Also if you ask for compensation and they agree or offer it in
writing, place a time when payment is due, listed with interest
and penalties fees for not paid promptly.

I recently had a bad experience with  G.R.B., Inc and Kevin
Barry for breach of contract.


Tom








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                        The Truth About The Triangle

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:26:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:26:08 -0400
Subject: The Truth About The Triangle


Source: The Royal Gazette - Bermuda

http://www.theroyalgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Site=RG&Date030428&Category
=OPINION&ArtNo=104280025&Ref=AR


April 28. 2003


The Truth About The Triangle


There's this new theory.

Let me give it to you just the way I got it:

"English scientists ventured to challenge their world famous
country-fellow Charles Darwin. Cambridge University scientists
cast doubts on the hypothesis, which says that a human being
originated from an ape-like ancestor. Our common ancestor is
rather strange-looking, and it does not look like a human being
at all. It is an anteater.

"Most likely, this scientific discovery will make the humanity
pay a lot more attention to the mammals of the edentate species.
To be more precise, it goes about African aardvark anteaters.
These animals have a special scientific name, which is very hard
to pronounce. It is translated from the Dutch language as a
'ground pig'."

If you got the feeling there might be something not
quite...well, English, just for openers, about those two
paragraphs, you'd be right. We're reading, my fellow ground
piggies, from the pages of a newspaper which was the apple of
Leon Trotsky's eye when he founded it in 1908. It's the famous
Pravda, which, translated from Russian to English, means Truth.
I'm sure Mr Trotsky did not have irony in mind originally, but
things change, don't they?

 From 1918, it was the Russian state newspaper. In those days,
and during the cold war, it was a fairly grim publication. Its
lightest moments were when it claimed, earnestly deadpan, that
it was Russians who invented the lightbulb, the tank and
anything else you can think of, from gunpowder to penicillin.
Pravda's presses stopped running with the collapse of the Soviet
Union in August, 1991.

But the journalists who worked for Pravda wouldn't let it die,
and grabbed the name. Now, there is a newspaper, Pravda, which
is published in Russia, and analyses events from the point of
view of the interests of the Communist Party, and there is
Pravda On-line, a completely different company (in which the
story I've quoted above appeared) which appears only on the
Internet, and takes a less political approach to its coverage of
the news. So much less political, in fact, that the National
Enquirer should look to its laurels.

Pravda On-line (http://english.pravda.ru/) is a mix of straight
news and strange, off-the-wall pieces like the one above, all
written in the kind of imperfectly-translated English that makes
it sound like a script being read by Boris Badenov or Natasha,
the dastardly Russian characters on one of the finest made-for-
television cartoon series of all time, The Adventures of Rocky
and Bullwinkle.

So when you read the long rant on their website about the West's
favourite Russian, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, having actually been
a KGB agent all this time, or about the glorious Volgograd
University scientists who have discovered how to create
perpetual energy, it's hard to shake off the notion that it's
all there for laughs, having been written, perhaps, by a cunning
team of parodists from Private Eye.

I used their search engine to see what Russians might think of
Bermuda. Not much, was the answer. There were some business
stories about company incorporations, one or two bits and pieces
that turned out to be a great deal less interesting than they
first looked, and a ton of stuff about the Bermuda triangle.
Boy, do they love their Bermuda triangle:

"Here it will go about the place, which is traditionally
considered to be the most horrible, the most mysterious place of
the planet...A thousand of victims over a quarter of a century
is definitely way too much. But this does not seem really scary,
if you compare it to other facts. The number of car accident
victims in Russia on a part of land of the same size made up 15
times as much over the same period of time. It is reasonable to
compare the Bermuda and road victims, since the area of the
Bermuda Triangle is rather a busy traffic site.

"Needless to mention, that the triangle does not kill every ship
or plane that travels there. So, where does this infamous fame
come from?"

Infamous fame...wish I'd thought of that.

Pravda tells stories about the Triangle that I, for one, had
never heard before.

"An airliner that was approaching Miami once vanished from radar
screens and then reappeared again in ten minutes. However, all
clocks on board the plane were ten minutes behind the actual
time. There was not even a passenger who noticed anything weird
about that."

Here's another: "American News magazine published an article,
which told the story of an American submarine. The submarine was
travelling under the water at the depth of 70 metres (200 feet).
Submariners suddenly heard a strange noise overboard. Then they
sensed vibration that was going on for about a minute.
Afterwards, it was noticed that all members of the crew added
some years to their age. When the submarine surfaced, the
satellite navigation system showed that the submarine was in the
Indian Ocean, 300 miles off the eastern coast of Africa and
about ten miles off the Bermudas. However, making any
conclusions about this story is a premature thing to do. The US
Navy never confirmed or rejected that information."

I guess they must have been busy (they will be, still, is my
guess) trying to figure out how you can be ten miles from
Bermuda, in the Indian Ocean and 300 miles off the eastern coast
of Africa all at the same time, or even one after the other at
any kind of speed.

It is also good to learn, from Pravda, that "the phenomenon of
the Bermuda Triangle occurs in the Baltic Sea, as well".

Apparently, two fishing boats in 1979 went to a "fishing zone"
about 70 kilometres off the port of Hel (I wouldn't make that
up) in Gdansk.

"The fishing started," Pravda says. "Suddenly, several red balls
appeared in the sky right above them. Although one of the
fishing boats performed a zigzagged move by order of its
captain, one of the red balls repeated all the manoeuvres of the
boat; at that, the ball always remained ahead of it and exactly
before the rostrum. Soon, members of the crew were gripped with
unexplainable fear, and they had headaches and nausea; it was
difficult to breathe. Simultaneously, all electrical appliances
on the fishing boat stopped functioning.

"All of a sudden, after numerous changes of the boat's course,
the red ball soared upwards and disappeared. At that very
moment, the electrical appliances started operating. Both
fishing boats veered and headed for the port of Hel. Members of
the crew were immediately examined by doctors of the naval base;
however, the doctors found only nervous disorders and
exhaustion."

The story ends with these intriguing reflections.

"One of Poland's leading UFO experts, Robert Lesnjakewic, thinks
that UFOs have a connection with similar tragedies in the Baltic
Sea (as well as in the Bermuda triangle). The tragedies probably
developed the following way: A UFO hovers over the boat, it
emits its energy, which paralyses the boat's crew and puts all
technical appliances out of operation. The ufologist thinks that
one of the following variants may occur:

"The boat is carried into the time-space dimension of some other
world.

"The boat is carried away to some other planet or to an internal
underground world of the plant (this is in accordance with the
hypothesis saying on the existence of the city states of Agarta
and Shambala underground);

"UFO pilots take people from the boat and sink the boat itself;

"UFO pilots take the crew off the boat and don't touch the boat
itself; the latter turns into a Flying Dutchman drifting without
any visible damage."

But if you think that's strange, get a load of this, under what
has to be one of the greatest headlines of all time: They live
in their underwater cities and sometimes frighten people.

"Everybody knows about UFOs. And what about UUOs? I mean,
Unknown Underwater Objects? The Paseidon (sic) kingdom sometimes
surprises sailors with fluorescent heads, devil circles and
other miracles. Explorer Fedor Gard recorded evidence of sailors
who had seen a strange phenomenon: June 18, 1845, the vessel
Viktoria crew saw in Mediterranean Sea three dazzling disks
emerging. The disks seemed to be five times bigger than the
Moon, and they were linked with each other with some thin
fluorescent pivots..."

"So what are these objects? Nobody can say it. In 19th Century,
scientists Adams and Jenkins assumed some intelligent creatures
with gills live under water, accustomed to low temperatures and
overpressure. Moreover, according to an old legend, in ancient
times, there were Paseidonians living in ocean who were the
human kind enlighteners. The underwater civilisation
representatives were not similar to Apollo.

"Paseidonians are said to have taught Atlantes all science, so
they even could travel in space. A woman from the city of
Dnepropetrovsk who is said to have contacts with the
extraterrestrial, got information about some mysterious
civilisation founded by extraterrestrial and called Atsor. Their
descendants, who knew Solar System laws, forecasted a monster
catastrophe which would put an end to their civilisation. So,
they built houses under ocean bottom. They resettled to their
new houses before the cataclysm and still live there. While on
the earth surface, only their probes can be observed, that
above-mentioned underwater objects."

So. Got a taste for the bizarre? Just ask questions at
Pravda.ru. The folks at the Department of Immigration should
remember that, the next time somebody wants to bring in one of
those foreign prophets. There's no need, they should say. All
the weirdness you crave is just a click away, and free!

gshortoibl.bm


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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   May > May 1

                     London UK UFO TV Programme 05-02-03

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:18:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:30:30 -0400
Subject: London UK UFO TV Programme 05-02-03


This was only received a short time ago:

LWT
LONDON'S SCARIEST MYSTERIES
Series 3
Episode 2

TX details:             Friday, 2nd May 2003 @ 11.30pm
Duration:                       23'30"
Made by:                        The Lab
Narrator:                       Nicholas Jones
Producer/Director:      Stuart Cooper
Series Producer:        Fred Hepburn


LONDON'S SCARIEST MYSTERIES

Just when you thought it was safe to go out on a Friday night
London's Scariest Mysteries returns with more blood-chilling
tales from London's murky past.

 From psychopaths to serial killers, from terrifying hauntings to
UFOs, London has become the backdrop to many grisly and
mysterious events. Brewed from a potent mix of eye-witness and
survivors' interviews, archive footage and reconstruction,
London's Scariest Mysteries will feature the strangest cases
dug-up and disinterred only for those with strong
constitutions.....

Do you still dare to go out?

THIS WEEK - UFOs over London

Unexplained objects in the sky, rumours of government cover-ups,
near-misses with passenger jets and first-hand accounts of
sightings of UFOs  are all more often associated with America's
Mid-West. But in recent years London has seen a spate of
sightings of mysterious black triangular objects in the skies
above.

London's Scariest Mysteries interviews eyewitnesses and experts,
including police officers, ex Ministry of Defence staff and
Ufologists to try to uncover the mystery that hovers over
London's skies. The programme also brings you exclusive footage
of alleged UFO sightings.

Alien craft or a cover up by the military- industrial complex?
_You decide_.

[===END===]


John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports
and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Filer's
Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and UFO Sightings Italia.








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                       CCCRN News: New CCCRN Web Site

From: Paul Anderson <cccrn@cccrn.ca>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:38:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:35:16 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: New CCCRN Web Site


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

May 1, 2003

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


New CCCRN Web Site - www.cccrn.ca

The CCCRN web site has now moved to new pastures:

www.cccrn.ca

Please update your bookmarks, favourites and links. The old
address will now redirect to the new one for the time being.

The web site itself is also still being upgraded and updated.
Older report archives will be transferred to the new site over
the next few days, a somewhat time-consuming task! Thank you for
your patience and support.

New main CCCRN e-mail address:
cccrn@cccrn.ca

Also please note:

Please notify if your e-mail address changes or is discontinued.
Those that bounce twice will be removed, either for invalid
addresses or over-quota mailboxes, etc. Thank you!

____________________________


The Prairie Circular

Want more? Subscribe to The Prairie Circular, the quarterly
print newsletter of CCCRN and keep informed with the latest
news, updates, articles, reviews and complete crop circle
coverage from the Canadian prairies and across the country...
only from CCCRN!

Current issue: Spring 2003

http://www.cccrn.ca/theprairiecircular.html

____________________________


Crop Circles: Quest for Truth

Buy the DVD or VHS Video through CCCRN at special
discounted prices!

http://www.cropcirclesthemovie.com/affiliates/special_buy2.php?id=3Da6cf7d

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:

cccrnnews@cccrn.ca


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
Cell: 604.727.1454
E-Mail: cccrn@cccrn.ca
Web: http://www.cccrn.ca

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2003













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                  Re: The Truth About The Triangle - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:53:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:38:15 -0400
Subject: Re: The Truth About The Triangle - Sandow


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
 >Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:26 PM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: The Truth About The Triangle

I was in Bermuda a couple of months ago, and there's a bit of
Roswell in the otherwise lovely Bermudans - they carry on about
the Bermuda Triangle at some of their tourist attractions. For
instance, at a fine musuem of underwater stuff (fish, geology,
oceanography, shipwrecks), there's a hokey pretend underwater
ride. You don't really go underwater; you just get sealed into a
submarine-imitation space, where monitors and loudspeakers tell
you what's supposedly going on. At one point, you're told you've
entered the Bermuda Triangle, and weird things start to happen.

Sigh. The museum is otherwise wonderfully scientific and
informative - but maybe the Triangle nonsense is what they
think tourists expect.


Greg Sandow








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 17

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:33:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:40:54 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 17


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

       UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 17
April 30, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor
E-mail: Masinaigan@aol.com

http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


STRANGE HOMINID SIGHTED
AGAIN IN ARGENTINA

       "New testimony regarding the presence of a strange
hairy biped, sporting long claws and an unusual ferocity,
were added to the long list of accounts that the police
have gathered in" Rosario de la Frontera, a small city in
northern Argentina "after the judge of the Court of
Instruction, Mario Dilascio, mandated a final
investigation into the subject last month."
       "The first reference to the case was provided by a
couple in a forested area, Arroyo Salado, two kilometers
(1.2 miles) to the west" of Rosario de la Frontera "and
which serves as a 'Lovers' Lane.'  They claim to have been
attacked by a strange entity standing two meters (6 feet,
6 inches) tall, covered in hair, with razor-sharp claws
and 'bare buttocks.'"
       "But now there is more: a family surnamed Pereyra
told authorities that whenever going to the municipal dump
in their pickup truck, 'a beast' described as a 'large
monkey' crossed their path, climbed over the vehicle's
hood, and then lost itself in the thicket, leaving claw
marks on the (truck's) chassis."
       In another case, "businessman Raul Torres and teacher
Hugo Rodas, who teaches in San Antonio de Cobres, told the
chief of the volunteer fire brigade, Jose Exequiel
Alvarez, that they found something very unusual at El
Duraznito."
       "A large unknown animal lay by the roadside,
apparently run over by a vehicle.  They got out of their
car to take a look, turned it around using a stick, and
were astonished.  They had never seen anything like it.
It had amazing claws, was like a human, measured 1.5
meters (4 feet)" in length, "had a bearlike snout with
enormous fangs and genitals identical to those of a male
human."
       "Alvarez has led several expeditions to find the
animal and claims having seen it through binoculars.
'What I saw resembled a gorilla very closely but,' he
asked himself, 'what would an African anthropoid be doing
here?'"
       "The volunteer fireman added that 'we will be
visiting El Duraznito to see if we can find the remains
(of the creature--S.C.) reported by those people.'"
       "Furthermore, a woman surnamed Galvan claimed having
seen it in Los Banos, behind the mountains surrounding the
thermal springs."
       "'I don't think we're dealing with a single specimen,
but with a family of them,'" Alvarez said.
       Rosario de la Frontera is located about 150
kilometers (90 miles) south of Salta and about 500
kilometers (300 miles) northwest of Buenos Aires, the
national capital."  (See the Argentinian newspaper El
Tribuno of Salta for April 16, 2003, "Unknown animal
carcass found near Salta."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales y Mercedes Casas para eso articulo de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  Welcome to More Weird Critters of
South America Week at UFO Roundup.  Things are popping on
the other side of the Andes in Chile, as well.)


CHUPACABRA KILLED IN
SOUTHERN CHILE

       "A bizarre animal caught in a small community in
southern Chile was immediately associated by the local
residents with the enigmatic Chupacabra, since dozens of
birds who died by exsanguination (i.e. all the blood was
drained from their bodies--J.T.) was found in the area
some time ago."
       "According to police reports, the black, cat-like
animal--showing considerable differences" from normal
felines "in its ears and hind legs--was captured by
residents of Pinchulao, a settlement in the commune of
Lautaro, 690 kilometers (414 miles) south" of Santiago de
Chile, the national capital.
       "La Prensa Austral, a newspaper in Temuco, a town
adjacent to Lautaro, specified that the strange beast was
caught in the process of exsanguinating a hen."
       "The animal will be examined by local veterinarians
and analyzed to determine which species it belongs to."
       "Every so often, the legendary Chupacabra becomes a
news item in Chile.  It is accused of slaying and sucking
dry" livestock such as "goats, pigs, rabbits, chickens and
other animals, although its existence has never been
verified."
       "In late May 2000, residents of the northern city of
Calama" blamed NASA, the USA's space agency, "for the
Chupacabra's manifestations and attacks.  At the time,
residents of Calama, located 1,584 kilometers (950 miles)
north of Santiago, claimed that U.S. scientists were in
the area and 'lost control of at least three genetic
experiments,' only managing to recover two of them."
       "The (weird) animal, found by a local resident, was
caught in the act of sucking blood from a chicken's neck."
       "The specimen is in the possession of Ricardo Candia,
officer in charge of the local television station, USTV,
in the city of Toque, who had the creature embalmed in
order to preserve it."
       "It is worth noting that the animal--measuring some
30 centimeters (12 inches) long--was captured by a
resident of the Pinchulao settlement, property of Prof.
Luis Mendez, in the Rinconada sector, some 19 kilometers
(12 miles) from Lautaro."
       "Around 8 p.m. last Wednesday (April 16, 2003),
Samuel Cayuman was inside his dwelling in the company of
his wife when both heard a strange sound coming from the
henhouse.  Concerned for his poultry, the worker went
outside and headed towards the structure to take a look.
He removed his key and unlocked the door to enter a space
fenced by barbed wire, but the darkness kept him from
seeing anything strange going on within."
       "He suddenly siezed one of the hens.  Upon taking it
outside for a better look, he noticed that a dark and
hairy animal was dangling from its (the hen's) neck.  He
immediately let go of the bird and gripped the strange
being that had already drained all of the hen's blood.
Cayuman separated it (from the hen--J.T.) and then killed
it."  (See the Chilean newspapers La Nueva Provincia for
April 20, 2003, "Strange animal caught: the Chupacabra?"
and Diario Austral de Araucania for April 21, 2003,
"Strange animal mystery continues."  Muchas gracias a
Scott Corrales y tambien Christian Quintero y Guillermo
Gimenez del grupo Planeta UFO para esos articulos de
diario.)


TRIANGULAR UFO CRASHES
IN KALININGRAD HARBOR

       The Russian Navy has reportedly recovered a large
triangular UFO, which crashed in Kaliningrad harbor after
overflying a naval base.  The crash caused minor damage to
a Russian destroyer of the Sovremenny class.
       According to ufologist James L. Choron, "an
unidentified flying object has crashed at Kaliningrad," a
seaport on the Baltic Sea, about 650 kilometers (390
miles) east of Moscow.
       "The story is being released gradually, as it was
witnessed by the entire Baltic Fleet and most of the
citizens of Kaliningrad.  Wreckage is being recovered."
       "The whole thing was caught on (Russian) television
and was broadcast live by a news crew doing a feature on
the fleet.  The (triangular) craft was seen as a total
loss and, as yet, no bodies have been found."
       The UFO "was overflying the base," which is the home
port of Russia's Baltic Fleet.  "It is assumed that the
fleet radar interfered with the craft's guidance system.
It was not, repeat NOT, shot down."
       "The craft appeared to be of a 'flying wing' design
and was absolutely silent.  It hit the water at what is
described as 'a tremendous speed.'  No casualties.  High
levels of radiation present."
       The crash reportedly caused "minor damage" to a
Sovremenny-class Type 956 heavy destroyer at anchor in the
harbor.  The Sovremenny is similar to a U.S. Navy Aegis-
equipped missile cruiser.  The Russian vessel is armed
with an onboard anti-submarine helicopter, 48 surface-to-
air missiles, 8 ship-to-ship missiles, torpedoes, mines
and 12.5-centimeter (5-inch) guns.  (Many thanks to James
L. Choron and John Hayes for this news story.)


UFO FLAP BREAKS OUT
IN BELGIUM

       UFOs were spotted in Belgium during April.
       On Friday, April 4, 2003, at 12:15 a.m., Guenther
Slachmann "left the city of Huy in my car.  I crossed the
Pere Pire Bridge over the river Meuse, and took the road
which goes up towards Couthuin and Heron."
       "Coming out of the valley of the river Meuse, I saw
in the sky on my right-hand side a luminous point that
could have been a plane in the distance.  Two kilometers
(1.2 miles) further on, the luminous point lost height
(altitude in the USA--J.T.) and continued to fly slowly."
       "At first I thought it was a plane landing at
Bierset, near Liege, but then I arrived at the crossing
with the highway, and the luminous point had come up on my
left and became a strange object, whose shape I was unable
to discern.  But it was characterized by at least six tiny
points, or lights, white and blue, some of them blinking."
       "I left the valley road to go on Highway E42, in the
direction of Namur. The object got closer.  It flew at a
distance that I identified as being between 500 meters and
one kilometer (0.3 to 0.6 miles), and it was at a height
of about 200 to 300 meters (660 to 1,000 feet).  The
brilliant points flashed white and blue."
       On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, "between 11:15 and
11:45 p.m., I was in Tamines, near Sambreville" in Belgium
when "I saw an object which seemed to be a UFO.  The
object came from the west and departed to the southwest.
There were four sources of light on the object--three
white-yellowish lights arrayed in a triangle and one red-
orangeish light in the centre.  These lights did not
flash," the male witness reported.
       "The object made some noise, like a plane but much
less noisy.  It advanced rather slowly, just above us but
very high in the sky.  Weather conditions were very good--
starry sky, not a single cloud, and the object was very
visible."  (Merci beaucoup a Robert Fischer pour ces
nouvelles.)


DAZZLING UFO REPORTED
IN AUVERGNE, FRANCE

       On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 10:39 p.m., a dazzling
UFO appeared over a farm field on the outskirts of
Auvergne, a town in the department of Cher in south-
central France, located about 200 kilometers (120 miles)
south of Paris.
       "My father, a farmer, was in the field after
midnight," the source reported, "He then saw something
over him. It was made up of more than 30 projections--
lights--that illuminated the ground below.  The object
suddenly went away before coming back."
       "When the object had come to within one kilometer of
the field, my father noticed it again.  After that, he
woke my mother, and they went outside and watched this
strange object from 12:30 a.m. to 1:30 a.m. (it was now
Saturday, April 26, 2003--J.T.).  The object made a very
strange run in the sky.  It went away and came back always
to the same place."
       "A resident of a nearby municipality also saw the
phenomenon.  This witness thought it was a laser from a
disco, even though the fact that it did not come from the
ground seemed strange to him."
       The UFO left Auvergne at precisely 3:30 a.m.  (Merci
beaucoup a Robert Fischer pour ces nouvelles.)


TRIANGULAR UFO SPOTTED
IN NOVA SCOTIA

       On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 1:45 a.m., eyewitness
M. Kennedy was outdoors in his hometown of Port Hastings,
Nova Scotia, Canada when he saw an unusual light in the
sky approaching from the northwest.
       "There were about three lights in a triangular
pattern, with blinking lights that were constantly
changing colours," he reported, "The object itself was
black.  The lights were flying along in a triangular
pattern.  They seemed to be lozenge-shaped.  They were at
15,000 feet (4,500 meters) and going at about 700 miles
per hour (1,120 kilometers per hour)."
       Port Hastings, N.S. (population 314) is on St.
Georges Bay about 85 miles (136 kilometers) northeast of
Halifax.  (Email Form Report)


NEW CATTLE MUTILATIONS
REPORTED IN ARGENTINA

       "Concern spread among some Pampan cattlemen of the
Lihuel Carhuel department, who expressed their fears at
the discovery of several reported animal mutilations in
the rural area."
       "In an interview with El Diario, a young rancher
whose property is located on Provincial Route 13, some 60
kilometers (36 miles) west of Cuchillo Co," in Argentina's
La Pampa province, "and also requested anonymity, remarked
that two mutilated cows and a calf were found on his
property, being similar to the ones who achieved
prominence in this and other provinces in 2002."
       "The cattleman noted that there also occurred a case
involving the mutilation of a wild boar cub."
       "Worried by the situation, he stated, 'It seems that
they've taken action against me now, because, in 15 days,
they've mutilated six calves, all of them black, plump,
weighing 160 to 220 kilograms, which were in an open
field.'"
       "'The last one was found Thursday (April 10, 2003)
about 500 meters (0.3 miles) from the road and some 4
kilometers (2.5 miles) from my house, while I was away in
General Acha.  The same occurred on Friday (April 11,
2003) with a sheep,' he added."
       "When consulted about the condition in which the
animals were found, and the type of mutilations presented,
he explained that 'some were male and some were female,
but similar incisions can be found in all of them--
perfectly even and cured, as though cauterized.  They were
missing their tongues, jaws, ears, eyes and hide in a
stretch from the front to the start of the chest.  The
females were missing their udders and the males their
testicles.'"
       "He later said that 'I turned one of them over to
remove its ribs, but one of them, which was under the
body, was cracked and was 'mashed,' as though it had
experienced a poweful blow.'"
       "'I removed two ribs for the dogs, which ate it," he
reported, but added that the cadaver emanated "'a strong
odor of ammonia and sulfur which became unbearable.'"
(See the Argentinian newspaper El Diario de la Pampa for
April 13, 2003, "Mutilated animals found near Cuchillo
Co."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi
para eso articulo de diario.)


Message From the Editor

       Last week, April 23, 2003, there should have been an
issue of UFO Roundup, but there was not.  Your editor had
to make an emergency flight to New England after my mother
was taken ill and rushed to the hospital.  I was in
Massachusetts from April 16 to April 27, when I returned
home to Minnesota.  I am happy to report that my mother is
out of the hospital and is slowly recovering.  For those
who sent emails offering support during this emergency, I
offer my thanks.

       We'll be back next week with more UFO, Fortean and
paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to
you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you
next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites and in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.


E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 2

                   Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kimball

From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:33:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:55:19 -0400
Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kimball


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:50:27 -0400
 >Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 02:18:45 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:15:21 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >Richard wrote:

 >>>I have declined to sign the release on several grounds,
 >>>primarily no offer of compensation and objections to their
 >>>request for carte blanche permission to do anything they damn
 >>>well please with the interview(s) I did 5 or more years ago
 >>>while I have no say whatsoever about which one(s), how they are
 >>>edited, or what context thet are placed in. Sorry, I am no
 >>>longer contributing freebies to profit-making outfits who
 >>>exploit me as they please and allow me nothing in return. They
 >>>seem to think that I (we) should be pleased to appear on their
 >>>programs regardless of any other considerations, but they are
 >>>very wrong at least in my case.

 >Terry commented:

 >>I think it's a wise move to decline signing especially since
 >>they offered no proof that they were affiliated with "Sightings"
 >>in any way. I would wait until they specify which interview
 >>they're going to use and the manner in which they will use it. I
 >>would also negotiate a "first refusal" right in case they try to
 >>use your material in a manner not approved by you.

 >I'm surprised that they asked in the first place. I've found
 >that a number of "Documentaries" use older material and often
 >don't bother to ask for permission. That this production company
 >went through the motion of seeking permission shows a certain
 >amount of concern that a number of independant producers
 >apparently don't have.

It has to be pretty old (ie. in the public domain) to not bother
with permission. Even if I didn't want to ask - and I always do
- it's a sure-fire way to get sued if you haven't secured the
rights. I don't know of any broadcaster that would air a program
like that.

 >Unfortunately, the refusal of a few good researchers to allow
 >their material to be used won't stem the flow of others
 >scrambling for the microphone and camera. This genre has no
 >shortage of those seeking publicity and the potential audiance
 >won't know the difference.

There is a difference, I think, between paying for material that
a researcher has compiled, quite likely at his or her own
expense, and paying someone for an opinion. The former is
legitimate; indeed, it is the right thing to do, and no
researcher should allow a producer access to such material
without some compensation. Opinions, however, are another matter
entirely. Many documentary filmmakers believe it compromises the
integrity of the film if you start paying commentators, alleged
experts or, even worse, witnesses or subjects. I have been known
to do it with the primary subjects of a film for the simple
reason that it facilitates access - and I've been criticised by
some of my peers for doing so - but I would never, on principle,
pay a person to simply offer an opinion, no matter how well
informed it might be.

The funny thing is - the serious, respectable ufologists I've
interviewed in the past have never asked. It's always the
seedier ones who want a 'donation for the cause' (as one put it
to me once).

Incidentally, I practise what I preach. I've been interviewed by
the media for any number of articles, or radio and TV spots,
most recently in my capacity as President of the Nova Scotia
Film and Television Producers Association. I would never dream
of asking for a fee.

Best regards,

Paul Kimball
www.redstarfilm.com










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   May > May 2

                  Re: The Truth About The Triangle - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:40:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The Truth About The Triangle - McCoy


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:53:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The Truth About The Triangle

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
 >>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:26 PM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Truth About The Triangle

 >I was in Bermuda a couple of months ago, and there's a bit of
 >Roswell in the otherwise lovely Bermudans - they carry on about
 >the Bermuda Triangle at some of their tourist attractions. For
 >instance, at a fine musuem of underwater stuff (fish, geology,
 >oceanography, shipwrecks), there's a hokey pretend underwater
 >ride. You don't really go underwater; you just get sealed into a
 >submarine-imitation space, where monitors and loudspeakers tell
 >you what's supposedly going on. At one point, you're told you've
 >entered the Bermuda Triangle, and weird things start to happen.

 >Sigh. The museum is otherwise wonderfully scientific and
 >informative - but maybe the Triangle nonsense is what they
 >think tourists expect.

Hello, all, Greg,

Both the North Pacific and the Cascade Mountains have had more
disappearances of both ships and aircraft than the famed
triangle. One of our local Cessnas just vanished without a trace
last month. usually they are found, during hunting season.

There are numerous Sea Stories that rival the Triangle. Most of
it related to weather,incompetence,incapacity or all three,which
is likely the reasons for -most -of the triangle's fame.


GT McCoy







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 2

                    Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:18:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:06:10 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:50:43 -0500
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:48:22 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>Over half the article was concerned with explaining why there is
 >>no evidence that the rockets fired at the "precise" time that
 >>flash of light occurred, ...

 >The evidence was the time tag - and Fleming spent practically NO
 >part of his study examining the source of that tag, he merely
 >assumed it was invalid and then took this as a 'given'.

I wonder why Mr. Oberg thinks this ludicrous and deliberate
misrepresentation would sway any rational person to his point of
view.  The major purpose of the article, as anyone can see just
by reading the abstract, does exactly the opposite of what Oberg
falsely asserts. The idea was to _test_ the "assumption" that
the video time displays were accurate. I know Oberg is a smart
guy, but most people aren't as stupid as he seems to think they
are.

 >>I get the impression that he just popped
 >>the video into his VCR, maybe ran it in slow-motion, and then
 >>decided his "coincidences" were close enough for government work.

 >Mr. Fleming's 'impressions' are NOT evidence, it shouldn't be
 >necessary to point out - and his treating them as such is more
 >classical 'arguing from the consequent' fallacies.

I also get the impression that mild sarcasm goes right over
Oberg's head, or at least he's pretending it does.

 >As for the snide comment on 'government work', it's actually
 >not too far off (unwittingly), since the Pitts-Henize-Potter-
 >Mulrooney examination of the video, as restated in NASA
 >Assistant Administrator for Legislative Affairs Martin Kress's
 >reply to Congresswoman Bentley on November 22, 1991, that the
 >team concluded there was nothing extraordinary about the video:

Uh, oh. It looks like maybe I actually was unwittingly close to
the truth. They're from the government, and they're here to
help...

 >"The objects seen are Orbiter-generated debris, illuminated by the
 >sun.... The flicker of light is the result of the firing of the
 >attitude thrusters on the Orbiter, and the abrupt motions of the
 >particles result from the impact of gas jets from the
 >thrusters," and both Pitts and Potter (whom I have interviewed -
 >I doubt Fleming has) described their own determination of the
 >coincidence of the timing (Fleming shows how it is more easy to
 >reject contrary evidence if you are careful to keep yourself
 >from ever actually seeing it).

I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything about
this study. A civil person might provide some sort of reference,
but I suppose that's too much to ask of Oberg. I'd be interested
in seeing this analysis, because right now I'd have to conclude
it was wrong and probably incomplete. There is ZERO evidence of
any thruster firing in the video. The light flash was the result
of intensified lens flare. That's not a theory; it's a fact. The
lens flare is in the upper left hand corner, the thruster in the
lower left. The added intensity should have at least been evenly
distributed over the image, but instead the greatest increase is
at the upper left corner where the lens flare was already most
intense. At the lower left corner where the thruster flame (um,
plume) would have entered the field of view, the intensity
increase is actually near zero. But I'm just repeating what I
wrote in the article, which Mr. Oberg chooses to ignore, so I'll
move on.

 >>Orbital sunrise was a process that takes over 30 seconds...

 >While there is certainly a limb brightening which precedes the
 >appearance of the Sun, the illumination it provides is minor
 >compared to the higher levels which begin abruptly when the
 >solar disk clears the horizon. The sun is half a degree across,
 >and the Shuttle's angular motion was 4 degrees per minute, so
 >the full brightening - once it begins - takes about seven
 >seconds. For the purposes of this study - the sudden surge of
 >brightness of an illuminated object - the obvious physical event
 >is the moment the solar disk first becomes visible, not halfway
 >through it (an unmeasurable point from observation of object
 >brightness alone).

The above statement is highly simplistic. On an airless world
where you don't have to worry about atmospheric effects, the
sun's light is at 50% maximum intensity when the center crosses
the horizon because the sun's luminosity is more or less evenly
distributed over the entire disk. The sunlight intensity
increases at the highest rate when the leading and trailing
limbs cross the horizon, but since 100% of the solar disk is
already visible when the trailing edge crosses, the only point
where you might say there's some sort of "surge" is when the
leading edge first pops up over the horizon. I'm not sure
whether or not that's what Oberg refers to above when he says it
first becomes visible. But I am sure it's when the leading edge
clears the horizon.

That's the simple case. The atmosphere complicates the situation
considerably. To get to the space shuttle, the sunllight has to
go through about 76 zenithal airmasses (76 times the equivalent
to the amount of air it has to go through when at the "high
noon" position when viewed from Earth), and the sun is only at
about 10% of maximum intensity after it has completely risen.
The angular size of the sun is somewhat greater than the height
of the troposphere from the distance of the shuttle to the
horizo. The the total intensity is considerably less than 10% at
the point the full solar disk becomes visible  because most of
it is still at lower altitudes where the air is denser. And then
there's the special circumstance of the stratospheric cloud
caused by the Pinatubo eruption that Mr. Oberg seems to have
overlooked, despite his omniscience. That would have
significantly decreased the sun's intensity until after it had
cleared an altitude of about 20 to 26km. By how much, I don't
know. I'll have to "argue from ignorance" once again, because I
just don't know.

The trailing edge of the sun had to rise at least 0.3 degrees
above the horizon before sunlight reached its full intensity,
and probably more because of the volcano, adding to the 14. 7
seconds (not 7)  for the astronomical sunrise to complete.
Exactly where Oberg sees a compelling coincidence is unclear to
me (there's that ignorance, again).

 >>I'm curious as to what difference Mr. Oberg thinks exists
 >>between an "incandescent exhaust plume' and a "flame." To the
 >>ignorant layman, they are the same. The only difference I can
 >>discern is a layer of technical jargon.

 >Another classic 'argument from ignorance' - to say, "I don't
 >understand this, therefore it can't be true." I rarely have seen
 >such frequent appeals to the support of an arguers inability to
 >understand technical terms as evidence FOR the validity of his
 >claims.

Another one went right past him, or so he pretends.

 >In the classic usage that I employed, a 'flame' is a
 >region of rapid oxidation of a fuel/air mixture, shaped by
 >buoyancy forces in an atmosphere under a one-G acceleration
 >field. An 'incandescent exhaust plume' is a flow field of
 >superheated combustion residue in vacuum, created by combustion
 >inside a thrust chamber and expelled in a mostly ballistic spray
 >pattern determined by the physical shape of the nozzle and any
 >other structure the plume encounters once it leaves the nozzle.

Again, from ignorance, I ask "so what?" Whether  you want to
call it a plume or a flicker, or a Girl Scout camp fire in
space, it wouldn't have caused the lens flare to increase as it
obviously did.

 >>It seems a little late in the season for this much snow.

 >I'm uncertain what Fleming intends this comment to prove, aside
 >from inadvertently revealing his own ignorance about the
 >widespread generation of 'snow', or 'ice crystals' (a careless
 >term - they are rarely crystals, more often just amorphous ice)
 >in the vicinity of space vehicles.

I think Oberg knows very well what kind of snow I was talking
about, and it isn't in space.

 >>A flame from a downward-pointing thruster is not going to
 >>contribute to lens flare caused by sunlight reflecting off an
 >>antenna on the opposite end of the spacecraft. Mr. Oberg needs
 >>to explain why an "incandescent plume" would.

 >It is Mr. Fleming's assertion that the flicker on the left of
 >the screen is a 'lens flare', not mine, so his complaint that I
 >have not provided support for HIS argument is strange, to say
 >the least.

Oberg's inability to provide any support at all for his claim
that it is not lens flare other than inflammatory verbiage is
not at all strange, to say the least.

 >As to why a down-pointing thruster can create plume
 >in the field-of-view of the side-pointed CCTV, that is a good
 >question that has confused earlier serious researchers as well.

I'm not sure that anyone is confused except Mr. Oberg, although
I don't really believe he is as confused as he pretends to be.

 >A digital time, sourced from the shuttle's Master Timing Unit,
 >along with camera parameters such as power, az/el angles, etc.,
 >is digitally encoded on the downlink video, and can be read and
 >displayed in various formats which are not of significance. What
 >is important is that the automated source of the time signal is
 >a high-precision timer, not some fumble-fingered home-VCR
 >setter.

It still remains to be seen whether whether there were some
fumbling fingers somewhere in the data stream. It's been known
to happen.

 >True, since it's peripheral - at best - to the question of the
 >ORIGIN and reliability of that time signal.

Yes, it's the origin and reliability that's in question. I know
what the official answer is; it doesn't seem to line up very
well with my attempts to independently verify its accuracy.

 >I've run into this line of arguing a lot, too. It goes like,
 >'OK, well maybe I have failed to do the homework required to
 >establish MY argument, but OBERG has an obligation to do it FOR
 >me.

I'm not sure I'd paraphrase what I've said quite that way.

 >>>Mr. Fleming seems to have made the assumption that an orbiting
 >>>satellite's change in position relative to its former flight
 >>>path is linear, based on a change in velocity. That is, a change
 >>>in speed of 1 ft/sec would result in it being 3600 ft away from
 >>>where it otherwise WOULD have been, an hour later, if it hadn't
 >>>made the maneuver. But this is far from true, because the
 >>>satellite is in orbit, not on a flat frictionless surface, and
 >>>the laws of orbital mechanics apply - not the simplifying
 >>>assumptions that Mr. Fleming would like to substitute.

 >>I think I made it clear that was just an approximation.

 >It is not EVEN 'an approximation', as Fleming admits he intended
 >it to be - it is flat out WRONG.
 >
 >>I'm not an expert on orbital mechanics, so I'll have to assume
 >>that the official vectors are correct and Adamo made a mistake
 >>unless proven otherwise.

 >This is absolutely priceless. Fleming admits he's not an expert,
 >so he assumes that the real expert -- Adamo - is wrong until
 >somebody proves differently to his satisfaction. Pardon me while
 >I pick myself up off the floor....

So Oberg has found something trivial that he can gnaw on. I had
misgivings about putting that in the article before I sent it to
Carlotto, but it seemed fairly obvious that SOMETHING was wrong
with Adamo's vector, so I left it in. Oberg could have mentioned
to me that my approximation left something to be desired prior
to publication of the article if he had wanted to. To be
courteous, I sent him a copy of the paper two weeks ago. A
courteous person would have pointed out perceived flaws in the
paper in private email communication. But I figured that since
this was Oberg I was dealing with, he would probably be
discourteous and wait to pounce on any flaws he could find until
after the paper had already been published. On that prediction I
wasn't WRONG at all.

Orbital computations are rather difficult, but there's still
something wrong with Adamo's orbital vector because it differs
too much from the official vectors for the time period in
question. And I think I might have found out what it is from
MCC STATUS REPORT #8 FLIGHT DAY FOUR 11:00 PM CDT (9/15/91):

http://spacelink.nasa.gov/NASA.Projects/Human.Exploration.and.Development.of.Spa
ce/Human.Space.Flight/Shuttle/Shuttle.Missions/Flight.043.STS-48/


"Based on information from multiple tracking sources around the
world, it was determined that the body of a Soviet Cosmos 955
upper stage booster would pass within a distance from Discovery
which would violate NASA flight rules, and the decision was made
to conduct the avoidance maneuver.  The maneuver was conducted
successfully, about 8:30 pm central time, and the closest point
of approach is now expected to be about 8.7 nautical miles, well
beyond the acceptable boundaries, at about 11:06 pm central time
tonight."

Central Standard Time is 6 hours behind GMT, so 8:30PM CST is
2:30AM GMT the next day (9/16). The Orbit 46 TLE gives an epoch
time of 91259.08333333, which is 9/16, 2:00 AM.

At a satellite observer web site at
http://www.satobs.org/element.html It states:

"The epoch is the sequential calendar date when the satellite
crossed the equator in an ascending (northerly) direction
subsequent to a series of observations that were made to
calculate the elements."

So the Orbit-46 vector, which differs by less than one second in
predicted sunrise time from the Orbit-36 vector I used,  was
apparently computed for a spacecraft position some time _before_
2:00AM and probably prior to the collision avoidance burn at
2:30 GMT that altered the orbit. (I doubt that when they said
"about 8:30" they really meant 8 o'clock.)

Adamo gave a time of 1:30 AM for the collision avoidance burn
that he took into account in computing his state vector. He
apparently "back-propagated" from the Orbit-46 TLE through a
collision avoidance burn that hadn't actually occurred yet. It
seems that his memory 8 years after the STS-48 mission, though
not his expertise, might have been somewhat faulty. No big deal.

This, at least, is my conclusion. I'm sure I'll hear about it
from Oberg if I've made a mistake somewhere.

That's all the stuff from him that I'm going to deal with
tonight. I don't have quite as much time on my hands as Mr.
Oberg indicated he thinks I do in his snide acknowledgement of
receipt of my paper.







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   May > May 2

                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:04:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:17:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Myers


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:28:49 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:12:14 -0700
 >>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>More on the so-called Russian UFO crash.....

 >>http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2003/04/29.html#ufo

 >>Please...

 >>In the meantime, enjoy the last addition to the UFO Hall of
 >>Shame and welcome the latest inductees Rael, Linda Howe,
 >>Nancy.Lieder, and others...

 >>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/hall5.html

 >I was going to e-mail you yesterday to see if Dennis Bossack is
 >unworthy enough to grace a gallery in your museum. I next saw
 >this post of yours.

Mr. Bossack has been mentioned to me numerous times and I am
very familiar with his bunk UFO exploits and more. Someone had
sent me a large compilation of information on him, but I have
not had the time to follow-up on many of the UFO idiots out
there, nor do I foresee having the time to do so. I'll be making
an announcement about that shortly.....

 >As I've told you a few times in the past, thanks for doing a
 >great job nailing UFO poseurs born with faulty genes who
 >were/are damaging what is left of the study of UFOs and bilking
 >those poor folks in the public who are born with chronic
 >gullibility illness.

My thought is, if you only have half of the story then how can
you come to an appropriate conclusion? Obviously, you
can't...that is unless you want to.

 >Your new website design is also great. You now have five
 >galleries and this version of the whole site is a step up
 >overall.

 >Man, you are creating a MAJOR MUSEUM.

I could fill a very large chunk of cyberspace with many, many
more pages of idiots. But again, the time alone would amount to
more than a full-time job.

 >One highlight for me was reading your "The Aliens" story again.
 >It's been a long time and I certainly enjoyed it once more.

 >This time I experienced a jolt of my Kundalini and a new idea
 >was born in my brain. The lightbulb in my head has not burned
 >out because it suddenly lit up with the visual candlepower of
 >standing between two surplus 60" WWII anti-aircraft
 >searchlights. One was pointing in each eye with the mating of
 >the carbon rods emitting a total of 2 zillion candlepower.

 >What if the real reasons for there being so many wacky people in
 >this field is something not yet discussed here?

 >What if it is more than faulty genes or brain damage?

 >We have spoken about how our own government has used a plan of
 >debunking by making the UFO issue appear worthless and
 >ridiculous. What if has not been them alone?

 >What if the aliens have a very good cover to hide their real
 >presence here on earth. What if they are the ones to stir up
 >trouble and make Ufology look silly? Could it be THEM?

If the aliens, whether they exist or not, have employed those
fools out there making a complete mockery of Ufology in some
kind of evil scheme to discredit the field, then they've done a
damn fine job of recruiting the idiots, charlatans, and general
asses to get the job done. I couldn't think of a better group of
lunatics to use, could you? Of course, who knows, maybe I'm a
big part of the evil alien plan... well, I've been called a
disinformationalist you know - just like every other person out
there calling it like they see it.

<snip>

 >We who are the most committed can together make saucer shaped
 >UFO Lambburgers within round pita bread plus all kinds of
 >goodies on top. Together we can take off rapidly as these Iraqis
 >have no conception of franchising

You mean, such as alien burritos...?

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/reedufohoax.html

It will be one year to the day, May 2nd, when I broke this case
wide open. Thankfully, this hoax crawled back in the hole it
slithered out of and has not been seen since.

<snip>

 >Royce, what do you think? Does that stuff off the top of my head
 >sound devious enough? Do I someday have a chance at getting into
 >one of your galleries?

Josh, you're already in there - did you not see it? ;-)

 >There is a problem. It is that I like myself and enjoy the
 >harmony and happiness of that. To capitalize from that kind of
 >BS I would have to sell my soul. That makes a real hell,
 >splitting yourself with one part hating the other part for going
 >so low. I'll never put myself in that position.

Indeed, there are several folks out there in UFO land who have
sold their souls for their 15-minutes, or for some easy cash, or
both. Of course, all at the expense of the serious core of
researchers out there, pro and con alike.

If there's a message or a theme I've been trying to get out
there, then it would be this: Ask for proof and accept nothing
but that which meets the highest of evidentiary standards. Don't
cry wolf when you see squirrels. If you smell BS, more often
than not that is exactly what it is. When offered fluff crap,
write it off as such, let everyone know, hold those offering
said fluff crap accountable as best you can, and move on.

Remember folks, just as my buddy Albert Einstein said, "The
world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil,
but because of those who look on and do nothing."


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
" Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"










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   May > May 2

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 391

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:45:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:31:53 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 391


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 391 -  17 APRIL 2003

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:


- First-Quarter 2003 Sightings in Italy
- New Issue of European Journal


FIRST-QUARTER 2003 SIGHTINGS IN ITALY

The number of reports of sightings of UFO phenomena, occurring
in Italy during the month of March and collected to date by the
Internet working group for the caselog of the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (CISU), has totaled 27.

As a result, last month saw the number of gathered reports cut
in half, with respect to the previous month,  bringing in the
month of March at its usual average and the first quarter at the
same levels of preceding years (with the exception of 2002,
which was "richer" by 50%): i.e. 177 cases.

The quarter's reports were concentrated more than usual in the
northern regions, which alone account for two-thirds of the
total, with a further concentration in Lombardy, Veneto and
Emilia, as opposed  to Piedmont and Liguria.

On the contrary, there was nothing anomalous about the type
distribution: 70% were nocturnal lights and 8% daytime objects.
As of special characteristics, there occurred three cases
involving effects on the surrounding environment; three
featuring photographs; thirteen involving filmed sequences; and
a good six objects observed as falling to Earth.

The complete list of cases  along with the update of tables for
the last three years, the related statistical re-downloads and
graphs  are already available, as always, on the CISU Website.

[Reports by Giorgio Abraini]


NEW ISSUE OF EUROPEAN JOURNAL

The eighth issue (and the first of its fourth year-in-print) has
come out of the "European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies"
(EJUFOAS), published in Great Britain by Totton College, having
as its mission statement to offer the European Continent of a
shared tool for scientific ufology.

The overview of this issue features six articles, penned by
English, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian and United States
authors, who passed the filter of a referee board, rendering
this publication unique: a critique on and a response to the
investigation of a "close encounter of the third kind" in
Romania; an analysis of the differences in aggressiveness
between the drawings of aliens made by boys and girls; the
worldwide project of the UFO photos cataloguing; the real
official dossier on Roswell; and the presentation of the
"academic, international network of multicultural research on
apparitions" promoted by a Portuguese university.

Each issue costs 5 Pounds Sterling, the subscription to two
issues running at 10 Pounds Sterling. Discounts are available
for members of the CISU and others affiliated associations.

[Report by Craig Roberts; www.cisu.org/ejufoas.htm]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Giorgio Abraini and Craig Roberts.



- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at
Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto,
Freelance Italian>English Translator & Proofreader
44 Bickford Ave., Apt. 2
Revere, MA 02151
USA

Tel.: ++1.781.485.1683
FAX: ++1.781.485.1684
E-mail: gpresto@attbi.com
Webpage: http://www.proz.com/translator/723



- - -

(c) 2003 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 30.78.63 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







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   May > May 2

                        Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:13:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:33:51 -0400
Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website


CLASSIC CASE NOW ON-LINE


The RAF Lakenheath-Bentwaters 'radar visual' incident of 1956
has long been regarded as one of the classic cases in the annals
of UFOlogy.

This is one of the few incidents classified as 'unexplained' by
the 1969 Colorado University UFO study commissioned by the US
Air Force, which conceded that "the probability that at least
one genuine UFO was involved appears to be fairly high."

  But the true extent and complex nature of the events in East
Anglia have never been fully revealed, and divining the truth
from a mass of contradictory evidence has confounded even the
most dedicated of UFO researchers.

  Now for the first time in UFOlogical history, a website
dedicated to an in-depth re-investigation of a classic case is
available on-line at:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

The website is the product of three years work by the Lakenheath
Collaboration - a team of British researchers that includes
Martin Shough, David Clarke, Paul Fuller, Andy Roberts and Jenny
Randles. Please remember the site remains under construction,
with further documents (including several that are the subject
of FOIA requests) to be added in the near future.

Building upon new testimony unearthed by Jenny, since 2000
extensive fieldwork by Clarke and Roberts has uncovered a host
of new testimony and documentary evidence. Shough, the author of
a detailed analysis of the case published in 1987, has compiled
the existing and new material presented on the website.

Our front page opens with a surprise - a photograph dated
1955/56 showing the control console in the tower at RAF
Bentwaters complete with UFO graffiti.

Follow the links into the body of the
Lakenheath/Bentwaters/Neatishead incident of 13/14 August 1956.
The Collaboration have gathered together all the available
evidence, including new material relating to the RAF's response
to the incident that has slowly emerged since 1996.

The re-investigation did not set out to debunk the case, but
rather to look closer at what might have happened, with
surprising results for both 'believers' and 'skeptics.' We
present the evidence and take care to separate facts from
speculation. We provide no resolution as it emerges that
Lakenheath-Bentwaters is a far more complex and multi-layered
mystery than was ever suspected in 1969.

All five contributors, despite having differing approaches and
opinions, agree this is an instructive case and its re-
investigation has brought to light information that not only
overturns all previous accounts, but provides the sort of data
that scientists claim has been previously lacking in the field
of UFOlogy.

The site contains more than 270 text and image files, including,
in addition to the original USAF intelligence reports and other
Blue Book documents:

22 new official British Royal Air Force and Ministry of Defence
documents;

36 new interview transcripts and statements from pilots, ground
personnel and operations staff;

23 web-pages of in-depth commentary and analysis, fully
interlinked;

14 pages of meteorological data, with detailed tables, charts
and analysis;

14 pages of detailed radar and avionics specifications;

30 archived letters between investigators and principal
witnesses between 1975 and 2001;

Plus much more, with numerous links and bibliographical
references to research material.

The Lakenheath Collaboration would be pleased to receive your
comments, criticisms and contributions to what we hope will be a
on-going peer review process of our evolving case file.






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   May > May 2

                    Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:14:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 09:28:27 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:18:33 -0500
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming

 >Adamo gave a time of 1:30 AM for the collision avoidance burn
 >that he took into account in computing his state vector. He
 >apparently "back-propagated" from the Orbit-46 TLE through a
 >collision avoidance burn that hadn't actually occurred yet. It
 >seems that his memory 8 years after the STS-48 mission, though
 >not his expertise, might have been somewhat faulty. No big deal

On going back to the mission status report, I see that they are
all labeled CDT, although the body of the report says only that
the collision avoidance maneuver occurred at 8:30 "central
time."  Apparently, the report means 7:30 Central Standard Time,
so the time that Adamo used was correct. However, I still don't
see any reason why the computed sunrise time arrived at using
his vector differs so much from the time using the official
vectors. Oberg wants to appeal to authority here, but according
to the rules, the space shuttle should have been no more than 5
kilometers from the position computed using the Orbit-36 TLE
because a new TLE would have been issued if it were at a
distance greater than that.








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                 Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Anthony

From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:24:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:04:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Anthony


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:13:56 +0100
 >Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website

 >CLASSIC CASE NOW ON-LINE

<snip>

 >http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm


Hi Martin and list,

Martin, a big thanks for posting news of the developing web site
and mass of relevant Lakenheath information.

After spending more than four hours poring over much of the
material it seemed more than appropriate to state unequivocally;
that I've learned more about the Lakenheath case during those
four hours than piecing together various literature references
and other bits and bobs for the last 18 years or more.

Even though it's taken time to present, 'Ufology' owes yourself
and the Lakenheath collaboration a well deserved pat on the back
- the site has something for everyone, even if you are hung up
on titles like 'believer' and 'sceptic'. The amount of material
so far amassed and little disparate and then converging twists
and turns demonstrate beyond doubt the enormous complexity and
task involved in trying to clearly piece together and understand
a classic case like this.

I'll be watching for the further additions and elucidation to
appear on the site. Thank you for all your efforts. Meanwhile
listers, if you have had a long time vested interest or
curiosity about the famous Lakenheath case, follow Martin's link
the site needs UFOlogy's feedback.


Best Regards

Gary Anthony







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                  Re: The Truth About The Triangle - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:15:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:08:33 -0400
Subject: Re: The Truth About The Triangle - Ledger


 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> To:
 >><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:53:00 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: The Truth About The Triangle

 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >>>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
 >>>Date: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:26 PM
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Truth About The Triangle

 >>I was in Bermuda a couple of months ago, and there's a bit
 >>of Roswell in the otherwise lovely Bermudans - they carry
 >>on about the Bermuda Triangle at some of their tourist
 >>attractions. For instance, at a fine musuem of underwater
 >>stuff (fish, geology, oceanography, shipwrecks), there's a
 >>hokey pretend underwater ride. You don't really go
 >>underwater; you just get sealed into a submarine-imitation
 >>space, where monitors and loudspeakers tell you what's
 >>supposedly going on. At one point, you're told you've
 >>entered the Bermuda Triangle, and weird things start to
 >>happen.

 >>Sigh. The museum is otherwise wonderfully scientific and
 >>informative - but maybe the Triangle nonsense is what they
 >>think tourists expect.

 >Hello, all, Greg,

 >Both the North Pacific and the Cascade Mountains have had
 >more disappearances of both ships and aircraft than the famed
 > triangle. One of our local Cessnas just vanished without a
 >trace last month. usually they are found, during hunting
 >season.

 >There are numerous Sea Stories that rival the Triangle. Most
 >of it related to weather,incompetence,incapacity or all
 >three,which is likely the reasons for -most -of the
 >triangle's fame.

Hi Greg and GT,

The Triangle thing is a lot of hooey if you ask me. Pick a spot
where you get occluded fronts and 100 mph nor'easters like off
Nova Scotia and you'll get lots of disappearences, ships and
aircraft.  One of the hardest things to find in a wooded area is
a light aircraft and I have it from personnal in CARS [Civil Air
Rescue Services], in BC that the giant Douglas Firs and Cedars
of the Pacific Northwest make it even worse. Many light aircraft
go into the treetops, sheer off their wings then go straight
down 150 feet plus. That's still a killer. The same happens here
in NS with our little spruce trees at 40 to 60 feet.

For 7 years I was the "Zone Commander" [sounds more important
than it was] for Halifax District CASARA [Civil Air Search and
Rescue Assoc.] like the CAP in the states. We'd get a missing
aircraft or lost hunter or kid for example and if the hunter of
kid was still moving around it was easier to spot them that a
bloody Cessna 172 with a 36 foot wingspan and a 180 square foot
area wing, down in the trees. Rather than look for the aircraft
you looked for clues, like ground trauma and freshly clipped off
tree tops. 9 times out of ten the ELT didn't go off so no help
there. We were trained by the military SAR as to how to search,
a method I still use to spot things in the sky when needs be or
on the ground.

As for ships. Ore carriers and container ships begin to leak in
heavy seas due to the hull cracking while suspended over the
wave troughs. Usually of Liberian registration. It fills and
rolls over and sinks or just sinks. Sometimes in a few minutes.
The Coast Guard handles emergencies and rescues on a daily basis
here. If the weather is foul and you can't get aircraft aloft
[Sea King or P-3 Aurora] to look for ships in distress, then
there's a good chance they'll disappear without a trace, usually
in the same area as the Titanic. 2 and 3/4 miles straight down.
Sometimes a few days later while doing coastal crawls we'd
[CASARA] spot wreckage along the windward shore from a disaster
at sea, but more likely not. The Swissair MD-11 [flight 111]
left a trail pointing to her entrance point. The CASARA spotters
,I was out by then, said there was a styrofoam trail that looked
like a couple of million styrofoam cups trailing off to the
northeast of Peggys Cove.

The Perfect Storm took place right off Nova Scotia. We get a lot
of "perfect storms" around here [if you don't like the
weather-wait a minute]. My flying buddy Kevin a Canadian Coast
Guard operator for Halifax Marine Radar Approach [ships] worked
that vessel, the Andrea Gail, featured in the Perfect Storm.
There were some 35 vessels out there at the same time in the
same predicament. Most bigger or not in the wrong place to get
hit by a suspected rogue wave.

The thing is, it happens a lot here. But no one writes books
about it or attaches any significance to it.

But what the hey, it worked for Charles Berlitze and Bill Moore.

Don Ledger







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   May > May 2

                        Two NIDS 'Day After' Surveys

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:35:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:10:52 -0400
Subject: Two NIDS 'Day After' Surveys


Two NIDS "Day After" Surveys on Response of the Public to
Extraterrestrials.

Comparison of a Nationwide Roper Poll with an Online Survey that
Asked Identical Questions.

In 1999 NIDS contracted the Roper organization to conduct a
nationwide survey of opinion that focused on the response of the
public to extraterrestrials. The Roper organization polled 1,971
demographically weighted people and the results of the poll were
published in 1999. As a comparative exercise, NIDS subsequently
asked the identical questions via an online questionnaire. 2,046
people who were demographically uncontrolled submitted answers
in the allotted time. There is widespread agreement that
Internet surveys, especially those conducted on specialty web
sites, are wildly inaccurate in sampling public opinion. The
purpose of this exercise was to evaluate the extent of the
difference in attitudes to extraterrestrials between the public
at large and the visitors to the NIDS web site. The actual
wording of the survey questions can be found in the pie-chart
presentations in the Whats New section of the NIDS website:

http://216.128.67.116/pdf/internet_vs_roper.pdf

The complete statistics and some analysis of the original 1999
Roper survey can be found at:

http://www.nidsci.org/news/roperdayafter.html

Some predictable differences and some surprises emerged from
this comparison:

In response to question 1: "ETs landed and you could choose who
should make first contact?" a huge majority (86%) of the online
responders chose either scientists (42%) or a private
organization that has planned for such a contingency (44%). In
contrast, only 49% of the public at large chose the scientists
(29%) or a private organization (20%). Fully 20% of the public
at large preferred the military to make first contact, while 4%
of online responders preferred the military.

In response to the question regarding "What are UFOs?" a
surprisingly high percentage of online responders answered "I
don't know" (41%), higher than the public at large (32%).
Equally surprisingly, exactly 25% of both the public at large
and the online responders answered that UFOs are alien
spaceships. Given the assumption that the people who visit the
NIDS web site might have a greater interest/knowledge of UFOs
than the general public, it surprised us that such a high
percentage of the web site visitors answered that they did not
know what UFOs are. This may be attributed to open-mindedness.
Further, since the words "UFO" and "alien" are almost
interchangeable in most media treatments of this topic, it
surprised us that such a low percentage (25%) of people in BOTH
surveys thought UFOs were alien spaceships.

In response to the question: "If I believed that an advanced
extraterrestrial life form had been discovered, how would it
change my life style?" 16% of Roper nationwide respondents
answered "Who cares", while predictably, 2% of NIDS web site
online people answered "Who cares".

Question 4 asked how much the respondents trusted the US
government to disseminate information about advanced
extraterrestrial life if they discovered it. Both surveys
indicated a large majority of respondents who did not trust the
government. A combined 71% respondents to the Roper survey said
that the United States government would classify the
information, move to suppress civilian sources from obtaining
knowledge, or both. A combined 74% of the NIDS web site
respondents said the same thing. There was a significant
difference in the degree of suspicion between the Roper
respondents and the online visitors: only 23% of the Roper
respondents said the government would classify AND suppress,
while 47% of the NIDS web site respondents said the government
would do both.

A large majority (75%) of NIDS online responders were "fully
prepared to handle" undeniable evidence of the existence of
advanced extraterrestrial life, while only 32% of the general
public were that confident.

25% of the public at large thought that others would "totally
freak out and panic" if undeniable evidence of extraterrestrial
life were confirmed. Only 8% of the NIDS web site responders
thought this.  NIDS web site responders displayed either greater
trust, greater confidence or greater complacency in their
answers to these two questions than did the general public.

The survey questions plus side-by-side comparative graphical
representations of the two survey results can be found in the
"Whats New" section of the NIDS web site:

http://www.nidsci.org










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                     UFO Abduction Possible In UFO Case

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:17:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:17:00 -0400
Subject: UFO Abduction Possible In UFO Case



Source: The Hounslow Guardian

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/headlines/display.var.725081.Headlines.u
fo_abduction_possible_in_ufo_case.html

12:04 Friday 2nd May 2003


UFO Abduction Possible In UFO Case

 From The Hounslow Guardian

The oddest case dealt with so far by the new head of the RSPCA's
team of animal welfare officers in south west London was a
butchered cow in Osterley Park.

Until his promotion, Mark Buggie, 35, was an RSPCA inspector and
worked for eight years in Woolwich and five years in Brixton.

Before joining the RSPCA, he was in the army and worked as a
search dog handler. He and his dog were mainly on Royal duties,
hunting out explosives and drugs.

Mr Buggie, who lives in Upper Norwood, said: When I left the
army it seemed a natural progression to join the RSPCA as it is
the leading organisation, working with animals which had a
career structure.''

Mark is married to Jade who works at the RSPCA's call centre.
The couple have a seven-year-old daughter Emily and a four-year-
old son Alexander.

In his new role Mark will be in charge of seven inspectors and
ten ambulance drivers.

He said: I am delighted with my new role and I am really looking
forward to the challenges that lie ahead. We have an excellent
team and I hope to continue and build on the high standard of
service we provide to animals and residents.''

Mr Buggie revealed that the team is currently very busy. He
said: It goes in fits and starts but currently we are busy
dealing with a spate of complaints about dogs left on balconies.

Genuine cruelty cases are few and far between. We dealt with one
last week where a man kicked a dog to death, but most cases are
due to ignorance rather than cruelty. A lot of it is ignorance.
People do not take their animals to the vet to get them treated
and we also deal a lot with of care in the community people.''

One of the oddest cases Mr Buggie has had to deal with was a cow
butchered in Osterley Park.

He said: It was absolutely bizarre. The cow had been butchered
and all the meat taken, but whoever did it would have to have
caught the cow, because it was not hand tamed, and then walk for
at least two miles with the meat. It was just bizarre and looked
as though the cow had been sucked up by UFOs, the meat stripped
off and the carcass dropped down again.''

12:04 Friday 2nd May 2003


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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                UFO Festival Probes Possibility Of Alien Life

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:24:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:24:02 -0400
Subject: UFO Festival Probes Possibility Of Alien Life



Source: Portland State University Vanguard - Oregon

http://www.dailyvanguard.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/04/30/3eaf461aa6971

Little Green Men And Big Cold Beers

Annual UFO Festival Probes The Possibility Of Alien Life

Tara Merrill
April 30, 2003

Something unusual happened near McMinnville, Ore., during the
early evening hours of May 11, 1950.

Evelyn Trent was outside feeding her rabbits when she noticed a
disc-shaped object hovering in the sky. She called out for her
husband, Paul, who was able to take two pictures of it. When the
film was developed, several weeks later, word of the sighting
made its way to local media.

Before long, the story had spread nationwide. Many publications
deemed the pictures to be the first authentic UFO evidence
published. And now, more than 50 years later, the story lives on
with McMenamins' Hotel Oregon's 4th Annual UFO Festival, the
second largest gathering of its kind in the nation.

Believers, skeptics and party-seekers alike will converge in
McMinnville from May 8-10 to immerse themselves in all that is
related to the phenomenon of the unidentified flying object.
Events range from talks by nationally renowned experts to an
alien costume ball. (See sidebar for complete schedule.)

"People are there to have fun," said McMenamins' marketing
director Renee Rank. "You get people dressed up in crazy
outfits, which makes it all the better. But you get those who
are more serious, too."

Among the highlights of the festival will be well-known nuclear
physicist and "ufologist" Stanton Friedman, who will deliver the
keynote address. In addition to lecturing for the past 35 years,
Friedman has written hundreds of papers and articles, and
appeared on several TV shows, including "Unsolved Mysteries" and
"Larry King Live."

"He has been referred to as the Elvis Presley of the UFO world,"
said Amber Lindsey, copy editor for the McMenamins' marketing
department.

Also featured will be Peter Robbins, columnist for UFO Magazine
and editor-in-chief of ufocity.com, who will host an alien
abduction workshop.

"The speakers are respected in their field," Lindsey said. "It
really adds an air of legitimacy to the event to have these guys
here."

The 4th Annual UFO Festival takes place Thursday, May 8, through
Saturday, May 10, at McMenamins' Hotel Oregon, 310 N.E. Evans
St., in McMinnville. For more information, visit
www.ufofest.com.

Fun fact: According to the Oregon UFO Review, there have been 12
reported UFO sightings in the state this year.








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   May > May 2

                           Why We Are Not Like ET

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:29:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:29:50 -0400
Subject: Why We Are Not Like ET



Source: BBC News - World Editon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2985345.stm

Wednesday, 30 April, 2003

Why We Are Not Like ET
By Ivan Noble
BBC News Online science staff

There is a good reason why the DNA of living things on Earth is
not like that of Steven Spielberg's ET, researchers believe.
Steven Spielberg's ET

Samples of DNA taken from humans, animals, plants, microbes and
viruses have one thing in common: they form a double helix
structure held together by four different chemicals called
bases.

And scientists from New Zealand and Sweden have now built a
computer model to show that organisms are unlikely to evolve if
their "life code" is written using more or fewer bases.

The work could help our understanding of what to expect from
alien lifeforms - if we ever come across them.

Copying errors

Reading along the double helix, the sequence of the bases can be
read off as a genetic code made of four letters - A for adenine,
C for cytosine, G for guanine and T for thymine.

This code carries the instructions for creating and maintaining
life, but why not use two letters, or six or eight?

ET in the famous Spielberg film was said to have six-base DNA
and, on the face of it, Earth-bound life could have, too.

The reason why not turns out to be in the way a prehistoric
relative of DNA began to protect itself against copying errors.

Paul Gardner, and colleagues at Massey University, New Zealand,
and Uppsala University, Sweden, used a computer model to try to
explain why four turned out to be the magic number.

Evolution by supercomputer

It is not entirely clear how life first began on Earth, but many
biologists believe that before our current DNA-dominated world,
there was an environment known as RNA World.

RNA is a similar chemical to DNA but it is much less stable and
so much less suitable for holding the blueprint information for
building complex organisms.

Supporters of the RNA World theory believe that RNA evolved from
simpler chemicals and only later evolved into DNA.

RNA would have existed in a constantly changing and reactive
soup.

Gardner and his colleagues built a computer model to show how
RNA in RNA World would have evolved into DNA.

Getting stuck

They instructed their supercomputer to examine how RNA might
have developed had it had two, six or eight bases, as well as
the standard four.

They found that four- and six-base RNA molecules were the most
efficient at evolving into DNA.

But four-base RNAs were the ones which were best suited to
overcoming RNA's fundamental weakness: its susceptibility to
making errors as it copies itself.

The two- and eight-base RNAs seem to get stuck somewhere along
the evolution process, Gardner told BBC News Online.

But six-base RNAs could have survived if they had evolved a way
of putting right the errors introduced by mutation.

Alternative scenarios

The research poses the question of what kind of DNA extra-
terrestrial life might have if a similar process of evolution
had taken place on a similar planet elsewhere in the Universe.

"We found the margins between four- and six-letter alphabets to
be low, so a percentage of independent lifeforms might
incorporate six, or a different four.

"But it is likely that the same principles that life on Earth
are based on will be used elsewhere," Gardner said.

If RNA-based lifeforms on other planets had developed the error-
correcting techniques needed to repair the damage to their
genetic code caused by mutation and degeneration, they may well
have developed into something with six-base DNA.

"I'd love to meet an organism with a six-letter alphabet.
However, they'd probably take a lot longer to sequence," he
said.







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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:43:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:57:41 -0400
Subject: Re:  Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:04:00 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:28:49 +0200
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:12:14 -0700
 >>>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >If the aliens, whether they exist or not, have employed those
 >fools out there making a complete mockery of Ufology in some
 >kind of evil scheme to discredit the field, then they've done a
 >damn fine job of recruiting the idiots, charlatans, and general
 >asses to get the job done. I couldn't think of a better group of
 >lunatics to use, could you? Of course, who knows, maybe I'm a
 >big part of the evil alien plan... well, I've been called a
 >disinformationalist you know - just like every other person out
 >there calling it like they see it.

A colleague of mine who has no particular interest in Ufology
but knows of my own endeavors remarked something similar - how
the government doesn't have to try too hard to cover up the UFO
secret (if there is one) because many of the people actively
investigating it are doing a pretty good job of destroying
plausibility themselves.

I don't know if that's true, though I would say that if I was on
the "Evil Government" side of this battle, I wouldn't be too
concerned with any pseudo-Mulders out there blowing the lid on
the big secret (again, if there is one).

All it takes is a few people muddying the waters to affect the
credibility of all Ufology.


Ian Rogers










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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studie -

From: Dave Sadler <sadlebone@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:18:41 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studie -


I can understand Chris Parr's accusations and thoughts on the
matter's concerning Sharon Larkin and Graham Birdsall..

Although the publication UFO Magazine is of a high standard, has
achieved commendable success and is one of the only paranormal
types available on UK news stands, it seems you have to be part
of the 'Birdsall clique' awarded with any mention within its
pages.

Many individuals including myself have forwarded information and
articles of a good quality to the magazine's hierarchy, only for
the information to obviously be dismissed. The same names
continue to be used. Many British ufologists, of high standing
outside of the magazine and who are currently involved in some
radical experiments, research and documentation, are disregarded
as unsuitable.

Should not a publication be impartial and offer its pages to all
within our realm?

Regarding the Sharon Larkin 'UFO investigator of the year awrd
2002'

Please explain to me the reasoning behind this? Why was such an
honour bestowed? Do not such names as McGonnegal, Robinson,
Kellett, Smith, or Mera deserve such an award more so?  These
people who are attempting to unite our Ufological community,
who spend more hours than they have available in search of the
answers we desire?


Dave Sadler






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                     Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:59:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 09:54:37 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Oberg


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:18:33 -0500
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:50:43 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:48:22 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited


Entire Fleming post at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m02-003.shtml


 >I wonder why Mr. Oberg thinks this ludicrous and deliberate
 >misrepresentation would sway any rational person to his point of
 >view. ..... I know Oberg is a smart guy, but most people aren't
 >as stupid as he seems to think they are.

It's time to step back from such obvious opportunities for more
pointed rhetoric and ask:

1. Is anybody else at all interested in the facts here, or is it
just entertainment?

2. Why doesn't Fleming address the issue of the actual
witnesses?

3. More to the point, for a guy who lives within a half-hour
drive of the Johnson Space Center, why hasn't Fleming learned
more about the factual and technical background of the material
he believes he has important and credible opinions about?

4. Why publish this work in front of UFO enthusiasts who might
be expected not to be familiar with the details, and not offer
them for discussion among space flight professionals?

5. >>As for the snide comment on 'government work', it's actually
 >>not too far off (unwittingly), since the Pitts-Henize-Potter-
 >>Mulrooney examination of the video, as restated in NASA
 >>Assistant Administrator for Legislative Affairs Martin Kress's
 >>reply to Congresswoman Bentley on November 22, 1991, that the
 >>team concluded there was nothing extraordinary about the video:

 >I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything about
 >this study. A civil person might provide some sort of reference,
 >but I suppose that's too much to ask of Oberg.

Jim's comment: I gave the date of the letter and its author, and
Fleming can obtain its text from NASA or from Kasher or from me,
if he asks. The fact that apparently he has never SEEN this
letter speaks volumes about the shallowness of his research.
Doing 'a quick google search' and then giving up and whining,
does not testify to Fleming's research ability.

6. The level of Fleming's confidence appears inversely
proportional to the demonstrated level of his understanding of
the subject matter, as follows:

 >I'd be interested in seeing this analysis, because right now
 >I'd have to conclude it was wrong and probably incomplete.
 >There is ZERO evidence of any thruster firing in the video. The
light flash was the result of intensified lens >flare. That's
not a theory; it's a fact.

OK, have it your way, you've declared the game over and made it
clear that NO response from me will alter your views - I've got
no problem with that.

7. I'm not just 'appealing to authority' here, I'm depending on
the expertise and accuracy of men I've worked side-by-side with
for many years on highly complex and high pressure situations
where integrity and accuracy were essential, and they came
through. To even receive certification to sit at such consoles
requires the equivalent of a Masters Degree in study and
laboratory work, and then you actually have to perform properly.
Yes, I trust such people. So that's why I found the following
comment so humorous:

 >>>This is absolutely priceless. Fleming admits he's not an expert,
 >>so he assumes that the real expert -- Adamo - is wrong until
 >>somebody proves differently to his satisfaction. Pardon me while
 >>I pick myself up off the floor....

 >So Oberg has found something trivial that he can gnaw on. I had
 >misgivings about putting that in the article before I sent it to
 >Carlotto, but it seemed fairly obvious that SOMETHING was wrong
 >with Adamo's vector, so I left it in. Oberg could have mentioned
 >to me that my approximation left something to be desired prior
 >to publication of the article if he had wanted to. To be
 >courteous, I sent him a copy of the paper two weeks ago. A
 >courteous person would have pointed out perceived flaws in the
 >paper in private email communication. But I figured that since
 >this was Oberg I was dealing with, he would probably be
 >discourteous and wait to pounce on any flaws he could find until
 >after the paper had already been published. On that prediction I
 >wasn't WRONG at all.

Once again, any errors in Fleming's paper turn out to be _my_
fault - in his opinion.








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                               UFO 'Detector'

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 09:59:04 -0400
Subject: UFO 'Detector'


I want everyone on this List to 'fess up. You own one of these,
don't you  :-)

Not being strong in electronics I'm gonna go out on a limb and
presume that there are a myriad of events that could set this
thing off.

http://www.ufo-detector.com/


Terry

http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/


[I'm sure Birnes & The Cooper-Eckers will thank you for boosting
  the hits on the Ad. too --ebk]






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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Chris Parr <parros@roswelldog.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 01:29:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:02:43 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


The principle issues appear to have been side-tracked in the
direction of my comments regarding the spurious ufological
claims by UFO Magazine UFO Investigator of the Year for
2001/2002 Sharon Larkin. The focal point of the major issue was
meant to pinpoint the manipulation of UK Ufological studies.
Quest International Editor, Graham Birdsall, had expressed his
resounding acknowledgement to the "most deserving" winner of UFO
Magazine's Investigator of the Year.

At the Leeds Conference 2002 Birdsall, in the presence of
Stanton T Friedman and the entourage of Quest devotees, promoted
the Ufological endeavours that merited Sharon Larkin to be UFO
Magazine's premier UFO researcher in regard to her world
exclusive revelations pertaining to a UFO connection
contributing to the tragic 1994 MOD Chinook disaster whilst
conducting a field investigation on the boundaries of RAF
Machrihanish in August 2002.

Without ignoring and trivialising the moral issues of the
potential distress that may have been inflicted on the grieving
families of this 1994 tragedy, UFO Magazine choose Sharon Larkin
and her research to be of superior value than the genuine
contributions to Ufology by Doctor David Clarke, Andy Roberts
and the many dedicated researchers who have played an enormous
role in attempted to solve the mysteries of the continuing UFO
enigma.

Sharon Larkin maybe the victim of an unfortunate trend to feed
the darkside of Ufology. It is the judgement and example set by
UFO Magazine and Graham Birdsall that must be seriously
evaluated.







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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:18:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:05:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:43:35 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Royce J. Myers III - The Watchdog <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:04:00 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >>If the aliens, whether they exist or not, have employed those
 >>fools out there making a complete mockery of Ufology in some
 >>kind of evil scheme to discredit the field, then they've done a
 >>damn fine job of recruiting the idiots, charlatans, and general
 >>asses to get the job done. I couldn't think of a better group of
 >>lunatics to use, could you? Of course, who knows, maybe I'm a
 >>big part of the evil alien plan... well, I've been called a
 >>disinformationalist you know - just like every other person out
 >>there calling it like they see it.

 >A colleague of mine who has no particular interest in Ufology
 >but knows of my own endeavors remarked something similar - how
 >the government doesn't have to try too hard to cover up the UFO
 >secret (if there is one) because many of the people actively
 >investigating it are doing a pretty good job of destroying
 >plausibility themselves.

 >I don't know if that's true, though I would say that if I was on
 >the "Evil Government" side of this battle, I wouldn't be too
 >concerned with any pseudo-Mulders out there blowing the lid on
 >the big secret (again, if there is one).

 >All it takes is a few people muddying the waters to affect the
 >credibility of all Ufology.

 >Ian Rogers

- - -

Hello Ian, Royce..:

I have to agree with your colleague. I don't believe in any
grand government conspiracy, what I see is the Gov acting
exactly like the Gov .. ass covering, inertia, you name it.

Even if there were some conspiracy to cover up UFOs, the
conspirators would have little to do but stand aside and watch
the freak show. The fakes, phonies, psychotics, quick-buck
artists etc. etc. do all the work. The media seal the deal by
concentrating on the wildest claims for their obvious self-
serving purposes.

I like Royce's website for spotlighting some of those.

The most any conspirator would have to do is plant some bogus
leads and watch Ufology go into self-destruct mode. But they
would not even have to do that! Its risky, such maneuvers can
backfire. Instead, they could just let the cranks and phonies
create the red herrings.

I suggest there is no conspiracy because there is no need for
one.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: Nobody conspires to make me drink beer on Friday nites
[burp!] Such a conspirator would have the world's easiest job.







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                          PRA - 'Lore Of The Rings'

From: Dr Ron Barnett <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 09:00:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:08:33 -0400
Subject: PRA - 'Lore Of The Rings'


'Lore Of The Rings'

April 30, 2003

The Australian Bulletin Magazine 2003
Australia

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/eddesk.nsf/All/1FD62E9936161241CA256=
D12000E8078

"Crop circles - an alien landing evidence, a message from the
outer cosmos or an elaborate hoax? Anthony Hoy embarks on a
journey to the twilight zone."


When Don White discovered a seemingly inexplicable pattern of 30
circles in a wheat crop on his Victorian farm in October 2001,
he put it down to "some sort of weather phenomenon". "I
certainly didn't give any thought to extraterrestrials or flying
saucers," he says. And there the matter would have finished had
he not mentioned it to his sister, Ruth Ellis, who farms nearby.

Ellis, who once worked for the Victorian Department of Natural
Resources, mentioned the circles to her former colleagues and
"it sort of -- snowballed from that point", White says.

Television crews and press photo--graphers suddenly began
climbing all over White's 400ha Corrymeela property, 50km north
of Bendigo. If aliens had arrived - as many of Australia's
pseudo-scientists and UFOlogists preferred to believe - they
could have picked a better time. At one stage, White's lamb-
  eeding and cropping routine was being disrupted by as many as
50 phone calls and visits a day.

While all that distraction eventually died down, it is
threatening to blow up again after the inclusion of the
Corry--meela case in a recent ABC radio broadcast about the crop
circle phenomenon. "I would rather the whole thing went away.
I'm sick of talking about it," White says.

Australian crop circles first achieved major media coverage with
the appearance of "saucer nests" in a wheat field near Wokurna,
a community south-east of Adelaide, in December 1973. Soon
after, seven circles up to 4.26m in diameter appeared in a field
of oats at nearby Bordertown.


In December 1989, as many as 90 intricate circles - ranging from
a few centimetres to a few metres in diameter - appeared on land
owned by the Jolly family in the Mallee wheat belt, north-west
of Melbourne. Unusual nocturnal lights were also reported in the
sky, as were strange high-pitched warbling, swirling or
screaming noises.

Some sharper UFOlogists have been quick to capitalise on
interest in the phenomenon - mainly at the expense of amateur
enthusiasts. To the chagrin of Australia's legitimate space
science fraternity, one entrepreneurial UFOlogist registered the
company name The National Space Centre, established a 1900
telephone hotline and charges about $5 a minute to field
"inquiries and reports" from true believers and the curious.

Staff at the only legitimate NASA facility in Australia - the
Deep Space Communications Complex at Tidbinbilla, near Canberra
- have since fielded calls from irate, unsuspecting UFOlogists
slugged as much as $250 by calling The National Space Centre.

More money may change hands if the recent radio broadcast
rekindles interest. The program featured an interview with Nancy
Talbott, a music producer with "a research background" at the
University of Maryland and Harvard and a member of the so-called
BLT Crop Circle Research Team. The name comes from the first
initials of the surnames of Talbott and her two associates, New
York businessman John Burke and Michigan biophysicist William C.
Levengood. The organisation, Talbott claims, is funded by New
York philanthropist Laurance S. Rockefeller.

Crop circle plants examined by BLT associates were covered in a
pure iron glaze associated with magnetic meteorite dust,
according to Talbott. The Corry--meela crop circles, she says,
could have been the direct result of the annual Perseids meteor
shower.

"There are pervasive, re-occurring abnormalities in crop circle
plants and soils which are consistent with exposure of these
plants and soils to an intense and complex energy system which
emits heat (possibly microwaves) along with highly unusual
electrical pulses and strong magnetic fields," Talbott told
listeners of A Country Breakfast.

She and her colleagues claim to have jointly sampled 300-plus
crop circles between 1990 and 2000. "More than 90% showed the
characteristic anomalous changes in plant tissues, and magnetic
material was consistently documented in those formations where
soil sampling had also been conducted."

The media, Talbott said, was making progress "more difficult" by
labelling the phenomenon as "fringe". "But hard data is
difficult to ignore. And following such data wherever it leads
will most likely lead us - eventually - to an understanding of
this most enigmatic, peculiar phenomenon."

Darren Osborne is editor of the CSIRO's science magazine, The
Helix. Before taking up his post, Osborne served for five years
as public relations officer at NASA's Tidbinbilla complex - one
of three global tracking points for inter-planetary space
orbiters probing Jupiter, Saturn and Mars.

"Tidbinbilla's expertise is often called upon for anything that
is space-related," says the man who in five years possibly
fielded more UFO calls than almost any other Earthling. "It was
amusing, really. We weren't looking out for these things. But I
became an expert of sorts, and certainly came to know which
UFOlogists were serious, and which were downright shonky."

His first crop circle call while at Tidbinbilla turned out to be
a publicity stunt perpetrated by Canberra radio station FM104.7.
Other stunts were staged by self-admitted crop circle hoaxers
Doug Bower and David Chorley. They operated in northern
Queensland before exporting their crop circle expertise to
England, where they conjured up about 250 intricate circles.

Matthew Williams, 30, of Wiltshire, was fined =A3100 ($256) by a
British --magistrate in November 2000 after admitting on the
internet to damaging a farmer's crops near Marlborough, England.
He subsequently made a film revealing the secrets and techniques
of crop circle creators, who use posts, --ladders, tapes, planks,
ropes, rollers and even computer-generated designs.

The hoaxers' handiwork was undoubtedly a factor in the
popularity of the Glastonbury Symposium, now in its 12th year
and said to be the largest international gathering of
"cereologists", people who study crop circles (after Ceres, the
Roman goddess of agriculture and fertility).

"Just because it doesn't sit in a gallery doesn't mean it's not
art," Williams says. "It's a living sculpture. But for some --
people it forms a temporary religious site. Some people get very
angry when you tell them, because they really want to believe.
It tells you a lot about religion and belief ... how these cults
are created."

Says Osborne: "In my view, the crop circle thing is a furphy.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And a
couple of trampled bits of wheat don't add up to much. The most
simple explanation is the most likely one. And scientists have
yet to be convinced that little green men and/or big-eyed
--monsters are leaving impressions in our wheat fields."

Movie-makers routinely use delusion and superstition to suggest
the supernatural - ignoring any reasoned expla--nation. Such was
the scenario in Signs, the recent movie in which Mel Gibson
played a farmer and former pastor whose faith was tested when
his Pennsylvania cornfield was transformed overnight into what
looked like an alien landing pad.

"At the end of the day, government-related organisations have
not got the resources to investigate pseudo---scientific claims,"
says Osborne. "And people are let down that they don't get the
answers they are seeking. So they turn to the pseudo-scientists
and UFOlogists, some of whom profit from the exercise. It's a
problem that no one really knows how to address."

But Barry Williams, full-time officer of the NSW Skeptics
Association, is prepared to have a crack at addressing the
issue. He dismisses crop circles as acts of art or hoaxes. "It
is one of the strangest beliefs people have ever come up with.
If some inter-galactic entity is really out there trying to send
us messages using ancient Sumerian symbols or representations of
alien DNA, why not write it in English so we can understand it?
Crop circles tend to happen in places where a lot of people have
got a lot of time on their hands - near universities, for
instance."

Don White doesn't subscribe to improbable UFO theories. All the
same, he is still nervously posting a lookout around
Corrymeela's wheat and canola paddocks.

~end~

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/


Regards

Dr Ron Barnett
D/Director PRA


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 392

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:57:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:10:11 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 392


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 392 -  24 APRIL 2003

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Hessdalen: a Critical Article
- Corso's Diary Published In Italy
- Mount Musine' & UFOs on TV at "Stargate"


HESSDALEN: A CRITICAL ARTICLE

The Italian Committee for Project Hessdalen (CIPH) has announced
the publication on its Website of a new article about the
mission conducted last summer in Norway, related to the studies
on recurring light phenomena which, for twenty years, have been
the focus of systematic and instruments-based observations.

The text, written by physicist and ufologist Matteo Leone
(Ph.D.), concentrates on an optical survey carried out by some
Italian physicists during the EMBLA expedition which, based on a
previous analysis of the photometric and spectroscopic data by
Massimo Teodorani, was related to an unknown atmospheric light
phenomenon "capable of producing a light-power up to 100 Kw."

Leone's article examines the same data, but it arrives at a
differing conclusion and suggests a conventional explanation for
the phenomena observed and photographed, while confirming that
other witness data gathered in the region are indicative of
unidentifiable phenomena.

[Collaboration by Renzo Cabassi and Matteo Leone; UFO-Italia, 23
April; www.itacomm.net/PH]


CORSO'S DIARY PUBLISHED IN ITALY

The Pendragon publishing house in Bologna is sending to
bookstores the much-ballyhooed diary of Philip Corso, published
for the first time worldwide and edited by Maurizio Baiata. The
late, former U.S. Army official recounted his version of the
facts concerning reverse-engineering and technologies derived
from the analysis of an alien flying saucer allegedly crashed in
Roswell in 1947.

Its title is "L'alba di una nuova era: I segreti alieni nascosti
dal Pentagono" ("Dawn of a New Age: Alien Secrets Concealed by
the Pentagon"), totals 192 pages and sells for 14 Euro.

Beginning next week, the volume is due to be on sale also on the
e-commerce Website Upiar Store (www.upiar.com), featuring the
usual discounts for members of CISU as well as of other
affiliated associations.

[Collaboration by Roberto Labanti]


MOUNT MUSINE' & UFOS ON TV AT "STARGATE"

Making a return on "La7" TV but no longer featuring host Roberto
Giacobbo (who has moved over to RAI-TV), is the program
"Stargate: linea di confine" ("Stargate: on the Edge"), devoted
to various types of mysteries.

Unless otherwise announced, it is scheduled to touch upon UFOs
and recurring light apparitions in the installment of Sunday, 27
April,  taking its cue from a Mexican documentary  but with a
segment devoted also to Monte Musine' which, at the beginning of
Susa valley (nera Turin), has for decades been at the center of
a highly-developed ufological, archaeological and esoteric
mythology.

[Collaboration by Angelo Galbiati and Luigi Sorgno]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Renzo Cabassi, Angelo Galbiati, Roberto Labanti,
Matteo Leone and Luigi Sorgno.



- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto,
Freelance Italian>English Translator & Proofreader
44 Bickford Ave., Apt. 2
Revere, MA 02151
USA

Tel.: ++1.781.485.1683
FAX: ++1.781.485.1684
E-mail: gpresto@attbi.com
Webpage: http://www.proz.com/translator/723



- - -

(c) 2003 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 30.78.63 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   May > May 3

                         Re: UFO 'Detector' - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:08:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:11:28 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector' - White


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
 >Subject: UFO 'Detector'

<snip>

 >Not being strong in electronics I'm gonna go out on a limb and
 >presume that there are a myriad of events that could set this
 >thing off.
 >
 >http://www.ufo-detector.com/

Sure - anything that creates strong enough electromagnetic
disturbances would do that.  However, if the sensitivity is set
too low for most natural or man-made EM disturbances, and since
disturbances created by UFOs tend to be large, it may have some
merit.

Particularly in the home of an abductee, where the likelihood of
frequent UFO visits is high, and maybe in towns with histories
of frequent UFO visits.  If viewed as a product which oonly
flags _possible_ visits, it seems innocent enough.


Eleanor White







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                    Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 11:06:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:17:13 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:59:43 -0500
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:18:33 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:50:43 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:48:22 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: STS-48 Video Revisited

 >Entire Fleming post at:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m02-003.shtml

 >>I wonder why Mr. Oberg thinks this ludicrous and deliberate
 >>misrepresentation would sway any rational person to his point of
 >>view. ..... I know Oberg is a smart guy, but most people aren't
 >>as stupid as he seems to think they are.

I see that Oberg has elided out my response to his false
accusation once again so that he can get down to the serious
business of more mud-slinging and obfuscation.

 >>I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything about
 >>this study. A civil person might provide some sort of reference,
 >>but I suppose that's too much to ask of Oberg.

 >Jim's comment: I gave the date of the letter and its author, and
 >Fleming can obtain its text from NASA or from Kasher or from me,
 >if he asks. The fact that apparently he has never SEEN this
 >letter speaks volumes about the shallowness of his research.
 >Doing 'a quick google search' and then giving up and whining,
 >does not testify to Fleming's research ability.

I didn't say anything about "giving up." Oberg's use of such
fabrications further undermines what little credibility he has.
This is really asymmetric warfare here. My article gave a large
number of references, many of them were to correspondence with
EXPERTS. I tried to make everything as open to independent
verification as possible. Yet my research is "shallow,"
according to Oberg because I didn't know about some letter. But
Oberg plays by a different set of rules that he's made up for
himself; he gave no references at all in his "zigzag" article,
and it appears now that much if not most of it was based on this
letter, also not referenced like everything else.

The only false pretense I might have been guilty of in my
article was the pretense that I was responding to some sort of
work of scholarship when I referred to the zigzag article. That
article would be shoddy scholarship, except that there's no
evidence of any scholarship at all. It was just another piece of
Oberg's "attack journalism," wherein we learn such fascinating
tidbits of knowledge as how other unnamed researchers (who
everyone knows includes two Ph.D. scientists) are too dim to
understand a "three dimensional concept." Oberg's article was
not a peer reviewed publication and no reputable journal would
publish something with so much trashy diatribe and zero
references.

 >6. The level of Fleming's confidence appears inversely
 >proportional to the demonstrated level of his understanding of
 >the subject matter, as follows:

 >>I'd be interested in seeing this analysis, because right now
 >>I'd have to conclude it was wrong and probably incomplete.
 >>There is ZERO evidence of any thruster firing in the video. The
 >light flash was the result of intensified lens >flare. That's
 >not a theory; it's a fact.

 >OK, have it your way, you've declared the game over and made it
 >clear that NO response from me will alter your views - I've got
 >no problem with that.

What a cop-out. Why would Oberg be so concerned about me
altering _my_ views? The entire purpose of these online debates
is to convince readers as a group that one's opinion is the
correct one, or maybe just to bring new facts to light for other
people's consideration. His transparent evasions don't hide the
fact that he's failed to address the evidence that the light
flash was merely lens flare. The spatial distribution of the
added brightness at the time of the flash doesn't fit the rocket
exhaust theory at all. Oberg's evasions only emphasize that
fact. I don't think he's fooling anyone.

 >Once again, any errors in Fleming's paper turn out to be _my_
 >fault - in his opinion.

And so Oberg closes with one last absurd lie. As I made clear,
my comment was directed at his unprofessional and boorish
conduct. I take responsibility for my own mistakes. But
apparently, Mr. Oberg, as is often the case with boors, will not
take any responsibility for his. I expect he will persist in his
assertion that the light flash was caused by a rocket thruster
and nobody will ever find out from him that there is any
evidence to the contrary.







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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:48:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:13:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:18:24 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >Hello Ian, Royce..:

 >I have to agree with your colleague. I don't believe in any
 >grand government conspiracy, what I see is the Gov acting
 >exactly like the Gov .. ass covering, inertia, you name it.

<snip>

Hi Larry -

How, then, do you see the several repeated, comical
"explanations" put forth by the USAF to explain the Roswell
incident?  Or the testimony of eye witnesses?

What's your take on Nick Balaskas' find in Ottawa archives of
papers showing the Eisenhower administration had negotiations
with aliens?

Or the as yet unnamed Canadian UFOlogist who received a
"suggestion" from government guys that he might want to consider
leaving the field, and having no further contact with Nick
Balaskas?


Eleanor White







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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:07:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:37:43 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Chris Parr <parros@roswelldog.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 01:29:54 +0100
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >The principle issues appear to have been side-tracked in the
 >direction of my comments regarding the spurious ufological
 >claims by UFO Magazine UFO Investigator of the Year for
 >2001/2002 Sharon Larkin. The focal point of the major issue was
 >meant to pinpoint the manipulation of UK Ufological studies.

<snip>

The manipulation of UFO studies is a very serious issue and I
applaud your endeavours to expose who you believe are the
manipulators. Indeed I hope that these endeavours would include
anyone you were aware of and you would have no hesitation in
speaking out against anyone even if they were a friend or close
colleague if the facts were placed in front of you? Indeed I
feel that you are of the opinion that UFO mag UK is manipulating
ufo studies? I have to say that I do not agree with all the
content of many paranormal or ufo publications.

At the end of the day research is conducted by researchers and
on the whole armchair ufologists read magazines so they do not
have to do any research. Many researchers I know use
publications purely for overall views on the UFO and paranormal
subjects. Most of the information is normally available through
various sources earlier than through printed media.I accept that
people new to research may use main stream publications as a
place to start. Editors should not be condemed purely on the
basis of editorial choice for the publication that they are in
charge of.

 >At the Leeds Conference 2002 Birdsall, in the presence of
 >Stanton T Friedman and the entourage of Quest devotees, promoted
 >the Ufological endeavours that merited Sharon Larkin to be UFO
 >Magazine's premier UFO researcher in regard to her world
 >exclusive revelations pertaining to a UFO connection
 >contributing to the tragic 1994 MOD Chinook disaster whilst
 >conducting a field investigation on the boundaries of RAF
 >Machrihanish in August 2002.

 >Without ignoring and trivialising the moral issues of the
 >potential distress that may have been inflicted on the grieving
 >families of this 1994 tragedy, UFO Magazine choose Sharon Larkin
 >and her research to be of superior value than the genuine
 >contributions to Ufology by Doctor David Clarke, Andy Roberts
 >and the many dedicated researchers who have played an enormous
 >role in attempted to solve the mysteries of the continuing UFO
 >enigma.

Are you sure that Roberts and Clarke are genuine contributions
to Ufology ?

 >Sharon Larkin maybe the victim of an unfortunate trend to feed
 >the darkside of Ufology. It is the judgement and example set by
 >UFO Magazine and Graham Birdsall that must be seriously
 >evaluated.

Should it?. You have commented in favour of Clarke & Roberts You
have commented against Larkin & UFOMag. But you produce NO
evidence for or against any party. This is only opinion.

Just wondered what your beef was really about.

Burns






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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 17:52:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:42:43 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Dave Sadler <sadlebone@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

Dave wrote:

 >I can understand Chris Parr's accusations and thoughts on the
 >matter's concerning Sharon Larkin and Graham Birdsall..

 >Although the publication UFO Magazine is of a high standard, has
 >achieved commendable success and is one of the only paranormal
 >types available on UK news stands, it seems you have to be part
 >of the 'Birdsall clique' awarded with any mention within its
 >pages.

I couldn't disagree more Dave.

Both Dave Clarke and myself have had several articles in UFO
Magazine, yet anyone who knows anything about UK ufology knows
full well that we certainly aren't part of the 'Birdsall
clique'. Far from it in fact.

Graham runs a news stand magazine, the content of which is
governed by commercial considerations. Perhaps you and the
others just aren't sending material of high enough quality for
him to publish it? From a commercial point of view it is folly
for editors to ignore good quality material, and it was a lack
same which forced the UK news stand 'zines of the mid 90s to the
wall.

Whilst I don't agree with much of the content of UFO Mag, rather
than witter so, rather than criticising people for wittering
about the magazine perhaps you should writing something which is
properly researched, relevant and readable.


Happy Trails

Andy
readble







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                     Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:52:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:47:58 -0400
Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Hall


 >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:33:19 EDT
 >Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:50:27 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 02:18:45 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:15:21 +0000
 >>>>Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

 >>Richard wrote:

 >>>>I have declined to sign the release on several grounds,
 >>>>primarily no offer of compensation and objections to their
 >>>>request for carte blanche permission to do anything they damn
 >>>>well please with the interview(s) I did 5 or more years ago
 >>>>while I have no say whatsoever about which one(s), how they are
 >>>>edited, or what context thet are placed in. Sorry, I am no
 >>>>longer contributing freebies to profit-making outfits who
 >>>>exploit me as they please and allow me nothing in return. They
 >>>>seem to think that I (we) should be pleased to appear on their
 >>>>programs regardless of any other considerations, but they are
 >>>>very wrong at least in my case.

 >>Terry commented:

 >>>I think it's a wise move to decline signing especially since
 >>>they offered no proof that they were affiliated with "Sightings"
 >>>in any way. I would wait until they specify which interview
 >>>they're going to use and the manner in which they will use it. I
 >>>would also negotiate a "first refusal" right in case they try to
 >>>use your material in a manner not approved by you.

<snip>

 >It has to be pretty old (ie. in the public domain) to not bother
 >with permission. Even if I didn't want to ask - and I always do
 >- it's a sure-fire way to get sued if you haven't secured the
 >rights. I don't know of any broadcaster that would air a program
 >like that.

 >>Unfortunately, the refusal of a few good researchers to allow
 >>their material to be used won't stem the flow of others
 >>scrambling for the microphone and camera. This genre has no
 >>shortage of those seeking publicity and the potential audiance
 >>won't know the difference.

No, but at least we can sleep well at night in good conscience.

 >There is a difference, I think, between paying for material that
 >a researcher has compiled, quite likely at his or her own
 >expense, and paying someone for an opinion. The former is
 >legitimate; indeed, it is the right thing to do, and no
 >researcher should allow a producer access to such material
 >without some compensation. Opinions, however, are another matter
 >entirely. Many documentary filmmakers believe it compromises the
 >integrity of the film if you start paying commentators, alleged
 >experts or, even worse, witnesses or subjects. I have been known
 >to do it with the primary subjects of a film for the simple
 >reason that it facilitates access - and I've been criticised by
 >some of my peers for doing so - but I would never, on principle,
 >pay a person to simply offer an opinion, no matter how well
 >informed it might be.

 >The funny thing is - the serious, respectable ufologists I've
 >interviewed in the past have never asked. It's always the
 >seedier ones who want a 'donation for the cause' (as one put it
 >to me once).

 >Incidentally, I practise what I preach. I've been interviewed by
 >the media for any number of articles, or radio and TV spots,
 >most recently in my capacity as President of the Nova Scotia
 >Film and Television Producers Association. I would never dream
 >of asking for a fee.


Paul,

If you pull Joe Blow off the street and ask him, "What do you
think about UFOs?" that's a [worthless] opinion. The same
applies to New Age airheads (if you will pardon my redundancy).
If you interview someone who has spent a very long time and
skill on gathering data, investigating cases, conducting
analyses, all in a scientific fashion, then that is meaningful
"researcher compiled" information and, in fact, a form of
intellectual property that people should not give away,
especially we who are deeply in debt as a result of our efforts.

To my suprise, this group is negotiating with me and appears to
be ready to accede to my main two requirements. So far, at
least, they are behaving honorably (as was the case in my
dealings with "Sightings").


  - Dick






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                         Re: UFO 'Detector' - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 13:08:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:59:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector' - Hatch


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
 >Subject: UFO 'Detector'

 >I want everyone on this List to 'fess up. You own one of these,
 >don't you :-)

 >Not being strong in electronics I'm gonna go out on a limb and
 >presume that there are a myriad of events that could set this
 >thing off.

 >http://www.ufo-detector.com/

 >Terry

 >http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

 >[I'm sure Birnes & The Cooper-Eckers will thank you for boosting
 >the hits on the Ad. too --ebk]



Dear EBK, Terry and all:

Having replaced lithium batteries etc., I suggest a low-tech
solution to the UFO detection scheme, at least on the 'magnetic
disturbance' theme:

You need only 4 things, and no batteries:

a) A length of iron pipe, maybe 2 feet (600 cm plus or minus
90%)

b) An equal length of copper pipe, but of double the diameter so
that the copper pipe fits easily and loosely into the iron one.

c) 6 bucks or so to replace the drill bit you
borrow. You might break it.

d) A soft pillow.


Procedure:

1) Drill a 1/4-inch hole in the copper pipe. Update your health
insurance and do likewise with the iron pipe.

2) Slip the thinner pipe inside of the one with the wider
diameter.

3) Slip any cord or string thru the holes in both pipes so that
one is suspended loosely inside the other.

4) Hang this assembly anywhere that you can hear it in case a
passing UFO makes it clang like a bell. The garage is a good
place unless it is too far away.

5) Rest head on soft pillow. This could take a long time.


Theory of operation is simple. Breezes and earthquakes should
affect one pipe as much as the other, thus no clanging.

IF a UFO generates strong magnetic anomalies, these should swing
the iron pipe but not the copper one. This sets one clapping
against the other like a bell.

The downside is that this simple device will not detect night-
lights.

Cats or burglars may set off false alarms, but dogs will usually
leave things alone unless they are stinky. Wash pipes if you
have dogs, and hang assembly where cats cannot get at it. A
rafter in the garage is ideal.

Any seldom used closet will do in an apartment. You can disguise
the assembly it in your 'Sunday suit', as long as one pipe is
freely suspended inside the other one. Otherwise, tell visitors
that it is an 'anti-wind chime' which only rings when you go to
church. This might require two pillows, but nothing above
requires big bucks.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: The upside is that there are no batteries to replace ever.
The weekly nite-lite bulletins come free of charge. The downside
is that you may drill a hole in your thumb during assembly,
and/or be late for Sunday Services.






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                           UFO Duck Hunting UpDate

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:28:33 -0400
Subject: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate


Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

Below is an update in reference to my attempts to review and
analyze original footage of alleged UFOs taken by a Mr. Anthony
Woods.

I took Santiago Yturria up on his offer (posted on UFO Updates)
to share copies of the footage taken by Mr. Woods and sent him
my address (via private E-mail). Santiago indicated that he
would be sending me the video tape two weeks ago.

On Saturday, April 26, I received a letter from Graham W.
Birdsall for the attention of "Amy Herbert, Errol bruce Knapp,
Jeff Rense and James Neff" addressed to Santiago. In the
letter, Mr. Birdsall made it clear that Anthony Woods had given
(sold?) exclusive rights to his video footage to UFO Magazine UK
and no one was permitted to duplicate the materials for "review,
research, presentation or broadcast", etc.

Mr. Birdsall further indicated that UFO Magazine UK will
"disseminate the material professionally" and seek "the expert
opinion of people who can help get to the truth" and the source
of the material. Yet, one sentence later, Mr. Birdsall states,
"The reality of this material is in no doubt in my mind."
  Further on he states, "That the material is genuine and I have
no doubt that all Anthony's material is also what the camera
recorded anyone wishing to challenge that can confront me."

Since UFO Magazine UK is already producing and promoting a
documentary on Mr. Woods' footage (and his appearance at the
22nd Leeds International UFO Conference in September), one can't
help but wonder when they plan to seek "expert opinion" and make
efforts to get to the "truth and source of the material".

Needless to say, Mr.Yturria decided not to send out copies of Mr.
Woods' "UFO" footage.

Ah, but all is not lost. We now have clips of Mr. Woods'
claimed UFO footage available at:

http://www.ufomag.co.uk/AW1.htm

Since this is the only footage presented by UFO Magazine UK for
review and analysis at this time, below is my preliminary
analysis of the clips in the trailer.

Going beyond dramatic introductions and conclusions, focusing on
video clips alone, one begins to perceive with their own eyes
and think for themselves.

1. The clip dated 4-25-02, beginning of the trailer, appears
similar to footage I have filmed (repeatedly) of various insects
in flight such as dragonflies and wood bees. What may be
"wings" appear above the main body of the object and since these
"appendages" appear blurred, they may be wings in motion. It is
quite possible the object filmed is some sort of beetle or
perhaps even a hummingbird.

2. In the clip dated 8-9-01, second clip, the object could be
some kind of irregularly shaped balloon (perhaps a child's
balloon), either dark colored or the color is due to contrast
between background and object (video artifact), somewhat
reflective surface. Note that the object appears to be turning
end over end which is typical behavior of balloons caught in the
wind. If this is evidence of intelligent control, someone was
asleep at the wheel.

3. The clip dated 10-18-01, is remarkably similar to the
hundreds of feet of footage I've filmed of white birds in flight
high in the sky and/or at a distance from the photographer.
  Someone applied a dark filter to the clip to highlight the
other white objects in the sky (possibly more white birds).

I've seen similar UFO clips posted on the internet from time to
time - this is part of the reason I began the IFO Database
("http://ifo.s5.com").

4. The clip dated 3-27-02 appears similar to video footage of a
group of black balloons tied together reflecting light from time
to time (due to the smooth surfaces of the balloons).

5. The clip filmed by Mr. Callaghan (no date specified) appears
very similar to footage I have of a white bird flying overhead
(I have filmed these types of objects many times which anyone
can also re-create themselves by filming a white bird in flight
from a distance). If you zoom in optically (not digitally
because digital zoom only enlarges the pixels which can
significantly distort an image - as anyone knows who owns a
camera with digital zoom), you automatically know it's a bird.

Flying objects, including birds, filmed from a distance can be
difficult to identify either as an IFO or a UFO. This is why I
rely on _behavioral_ as well as _optical_ characteristics of an
image to help analyze what an object or objects may or may not
be in video footage. In addition, by comparing behavioral and
optical characteristics of an unknown object in flight to images
I have collected of various known or identified flying objects
(IFO's), similarities between images can often indicate the most
probable identity of the object in question.

In other words, if an object captured on video tape looks like a
bird, behaves like a bird and appears remarkably similar to
video footage of a bird in flight, it makes much more sense to
classify the object as a potential IFO (pending further
analysis) than to prematurely label it a "UFO" and produce
documentaries and/or various books, articles or TV programs
proclaiming the greatest UFO footage ever filmed long before the
footage has been analyzed by independent (meaning not on the
producer's payroll or any any way associated with said
production company or their affiliates), _qualified_,
professionals.

It does not matter if an object is filmed with 2, 3, or 300
cameras at the same time. If it's a bird, bug or booger, it
will still be a bird, bug or booger in each camera. Distorting
images by excessive enlargement and/or "enhancement" of video
clips/stills is also of little use when analyzing claimed UFO
footage - no matter how many over-enlarged and/or "enhanced"
video clips/stills you post all over the internet or how many
thousands of feet of footage of alleged UFOs there may be. If
the object in question is an IFO, it doesn't matter if you have
1 or 5,000 feet of video footage of the object, it remains an
IFO in ever single foot of the footage whether you call it a
UFO, an AFO or a FFO (flatulent farting octopus).

6. The insert on the left near the end of the preview appears
remarkably similar to a light colored or white balloon floating
in the sky. Something that could even be a string appears to be
hanging from the bottom of the object in question.

7. The insert on the right near the end of the preview appears
to be in slow motion and may be an insect flying between two
trees. Known flying objects presented in slow motion can appear
anomalous even when they are not. This is why it is so important
to first review video footage of alleged UFOs in its original
form without enhancement, excessive enlargement and/or in slow
motion, etc. If someone claims to have video footage of UFOs,
they are responsible for presenting the footage as is and
unaltered and let people make up their own minds. You can add
altered footage and/or stills later but the original footage
must also be available for review.

So many times I have needed to review footage of alleged UFOs,
for my research, that I could only find available in UFO
documentaries. Over and over, I have found the original footage
clipped or altered to the point it is useless for any kind of
further analysis. Sadly this often becomes the only footage
available to the general public and is presented repeatedly on
TV channels and even at UFO conferences...year after year after
year. Sometimes, if you are able to review the original footage
from beginning to end, you find all kinds of clues about the
true source and intent of the footage not visible in the edited
and altered versions.

7. The insert presented at the end of the preview could also be
a white bird in flight but the clip is too short to get a good
look at the object in question.

Disclaimer: This is only a preliminary analysis based on edited
clips of video footage presented at the UFO Magazine UK web site
and is not intended to reflect, in any way, on Santiago Yturria,
Mr. Anthony Woods, UFO Magazine UK or its associates. Since I
cannot review, at this time, the original footage taken be Mr.
Anthony Woods or anyone else involved, I can only estimate the
possible sources of the objects filmed through analysis of the
behavior of the objects, analysis of the images presented and by
comparing said images to images of IFO's I have observed and
obtained through my own studies and photographic skills.

I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a photographic expert.
  I conduct research for my own curiosity and share my opinions,
like everyone else on this list, occasionally.

Further analysis will be conducted when more footage is made
available to the public (or privately if Mr. Birdsall or Mr.
Woods will kindly allow me to review the footage in question in
its original unedited, unaltered form).

I will, within the next two weeks, present the footage I used in
making my comparisons of Mr. Woods' "UFOs" to IFO's that I
filmed personally for the IFO Database (since I filmed the
objects myself, I own the copyrights). It will then be up to
each individual to make up his or her own mind as what Mr. Woods
filmed.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:57:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:30:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:48:01 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:18:24 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Ian, Royce..:

 >>I have to agree with your colleague. I don't believe in any
 >>grand government conspiracy, what I see is the Gov acting
 >>exactly like the Gov .. ass covering, inertia, you name it.

 ><snip>

 >How, then, do you see the several repeated, comical
 >"explanations" put forth by the USAF to explain the Roswell
 >incident?  Or the testimony of eye witnesses?

 >What's your take on Nick Balaskas' find in Ottawa archives of
 >papers showing the Eisenhower administration had negotiations
 >with aliens?

 >Or the as yet unnamed Canadian UFOlogist who received a
 >"suggestion" from government guys that he might want to consider
 >leaving the field, and having no further contact with Nick
 >Balaskas?


Those things are very interesting, but they're hardly proof of a
grand conspiracy. It's just not enough to hold up in the eyes of
objective criticism.

I need a bit more to believe, and I don't think I'm being
unreasonable to ask for such.


Ian Rogers







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                   Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Jacobson

From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 18:37:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:37:11 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Jacobson


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >Subject: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate

Amy,

This is most interesting research you are doing on the possible
IFO of video/movie footage.

 >..... footage I have of a white bird flying overhead
 >(I have filmed these types of objects many times which anyone
 >can also re-create themselves by filming a white bird in flight
 >from a distance). If you zoom in optically (not digitally
 >because digital zoom only enlarges the pixels which can
 >significantly distort an image - as anyone knows who owns a
 >camera with digital zoom), you automatically know it's a bird.

 >Flying objects, including birds, filmed from a distance can be
 >difficult to identify either as an IFO or a UFO. This is why I
 >rely on _behavioral_ as well as _optical_ characteristics of an
 >image to help analyze what an object or objects may or may not
 >be in video footage. In addition, by comparing behavioral and
 >optical characteristics of an unknown object in flight to images
 >I have collected of various known or identified flying objects
 >(IFO's), similarities between images can often indicate the most
 >probable identity of the object in question.

 >It does not matter if an object is filmed with 2, 3, or 300
 >cameras at the same time. If it's a bird, bug or booger, it
 >will still be a bird, bug or booger in each camera. Distorting
 >images by excessive enlargement and/or "enhancement" of video
 >clips/stills is also of little use when analyzing claimed UFO
 >footage - no matter how many over-enlarged and/or "enhanced"
 >video clips/stills you post all over the internet or how many
 >thousands of feet of footage of alleged UFOs there may be. If
 >the object in question is an IFO, it doesn't matter if you have
 >1 or 5,000 feet of video footage of the object, it remains an
 >IFO in ever single foot of the footage whether you call it a
 >UFO, an AFO or a FFO (flatulent farting octopus).

It would be a great service if you could make examples of these
various IFOs in their un"enhanced" and "enhanced" incarnations
both available on a web site. Really could save serious
researchers a lot lot of time. Maybe if you don't have the
requiste web skills someone with a site up and running would
volunteer to help you. (Hint hint).

Excellant work, Thanks

Eric Jacobson






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                    Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:35:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:40:02 -0400
Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement - Kaeser


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:52:07 +0000
 >Subject: Re: SCI FI Channel Statement

<snip>

 >If you pull Joe Blow off the street and ask him, "What do you
 >think about UFOs?" that's a [worthless] opinion. The same
 >applies to New Age airheads (if you will pardon my redundancy).
 >If you interview someone who has spent a very long time and
 >skill on gathering data, investigating cases, conducting
 >analyses, all in a scientific fashion, then that is meaningful
 >"researcher compiled" information and, in fact, a form of
 >intellectual property that people should not give away,
 >especially we who are deeply in debt as a result of our efforts.

 >To my suprise, this group is negotiating with me and appears to
 >be ready to accede to my main two requirements. So far, at
 >least, they are behaving honorably (as was the case in my
 >dealings with "Sightings").

I'm curious as to whether this group is the Sci-Fi Channel, or a
production company preparing a program for them.

To a great extent I think we've been debating these issues as
purely black and white, but there are many circumstances that
might come into play.

When I mentioned researchers whose interviews had been used many
years later by those who retained ownership of the tapes, I
wasn't referring to simple "man in the street" interviews. But I
think the point isn't really whether you retain legal control
over your own material, but whether or not you retain control
when you've "released" it for others to use. How is that
"release" written, and how restrictive is it years down the
road. As I said in my earlier post, I'm somewhat surprised they
even asked at all.

But for the sake of conversation, let's muddy the water just a
bit.

I've taken my tape recorder, with permission from organizers,
and recorded many symposia for my own use. Should I decide to
use those audio tapes to produce an audio documentary program,
who owns the right to that material? What if I should re-edit
the presentations in such as way as to support my own agenda and
not that of the original speaker? What recourse would everyone
have in this case? What if it isn't actually sold for profit,
but simply posted to the Internet as free information?

To be honest one of those tapes was used to create an audio CD
that is sold by the Fund, and many of my audio clips can be
found on one of my (very outdated) web pages:

http://www.konsulting.com/audio_clips.htm

I've compiled many hours of interviews on various topics during
my eight years in radio news, and most of it I still possess.
The radio outlets that I worked for have no interest in them.
And they are primarily question and answer interviews that took
place in a public setting. I could take those interviews today
and perhaps the opinions or views of those I have on tape have
changed. But would that limit my legal right to use them? Even
at the time of the interviews there no prior restrictions on how
I edited the comments for use on the air. This editing was
dictated by time and the story I was trying to tell, which more
often than not was parallel to the story that they interviewee
was trying to tell. As a member of the local community I had to
work with those I interviewed in the future, and so I made every
effort to not misrepresent their positions or views.

I think you'll find that those who are misrepresented can file a
libel suit seeking a monetary award for damages, as well as
suppression of the material. But this is an issue of
misrepresentation, and not ownership.

Ownership of freely given interviews is not as clear cut as that
of a published work. Releases are often obtained to provide some
legal standing in case questions are later asked, but libel laws
probably apply the most in this area with regard to the recourse
someone might have as the wronged interviewee.


Steve








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                    Italian Satellite Falls On Australia

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:58:29 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:44:44 -0400
Subject: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia


Italian Satellite Drops From Sky over Australia
"Queensland" UFO Hotline Calls Saturday 3rd May, 03.
02936: 02937: 02938:

Queenslanders witnessed a great light show last night, from
Southport in the east to Monnie in the West.

One eyewitness Robert of Monnie near Dalby said: "I was with
four friends we were on our way home from a party when we all
noticed a large object appear to fall from the sky." "it was
impressive, it was as big as a car and brighter than a meteor."
"it looked metallic in colour and the cone glowed white, it
appeared to have a tail, colours red green blue it looked like a
big firework.

"Time was 10.04 pm". "At first we thought it was a plane
crashing so we watched it until it disappeared over the tops of
tree's to the west.

Steven of Bigger Water said: "I was traveling along Merleen
avenue at 10.05 pm when I noticed an object come flying over
from the east, I turned my car around as the object was
travelling west to get a better look". "It looked like a very
large meteor, glowing metallic white to gold in colour with a
tail". "I thought this has to be a satellite reentering as it
was huge."


Channel 9 TV News

Jane Hogkins of Channel 9 TV news rang to ask if anyone had
reported the object or caught it on video. Unfortunately none of
our eyewitnesses had a video camera on hand at the time. Channel
9 News will have a cover story at 6.00 pm today anyone with film
is advised to contact Jane Hogkins at 9s News desk.

The Australian Volunteer Coast Guard comment:

http://www.coastguard.com.au/

Col of Redcliff Australian Volunteer Coast Guard said: "We were
expecting the satellite to come down around 9.00 pm but it
didn't and this caused us a problem as a caller called A.V.C.G
to report a flare out to sea around 10.00 pm which we had to
investigate". "After more investigation I found out it was a the
Italian Satellite which was late on its reentry".

Canberra Deep Space Communication Complex comment:

http://www.cdscc.nasa.gov/

Robert a staff supervisor for Tidbinbilla tracking station said:
"We had nothing official on record to say a satellite was going
to be re-entering over Australia, but I have since found out the
satellite which re-entered was named after a Greek God and lucky
it didn't land on anything, as the satellite weighed 1 ton."

End of report

--


Regards Diane Harrison
National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@hypermax.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@hypermax.net.au
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com








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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 20:36:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:47:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:48:01 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:18:24 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Ian, Royce..:

 >>I have to agree with your colleague. I don't believe in any
 >>grand government conspiracy, what I see is the Gov acting
 >>exactly like the Gov .. ass covering, inertia, you name it.

 ><snip>

 >Hi Larry -

 >How, then, do you see the several repeated, comical
 >"explanations" put forth by the USAF to explain the Roswell
 >incident? Or the testimony of eye witnesses?


Hello Eleanor:

The testimony of eye witnesses is just that.

For Roswell. I see a strong possibility of some sort of military
screwup, followed by a coverup rather than some grand
conspiracy, a coverup which itself turned into a screwup. That's
government with a capital G.

 >What's your take on Nick Balaskas' find in Ottawa archives of
 >papers showing the Eisenhower administration had negotiations
 >with aliens?

I find such claims hard to believe; Eisenhower as contactee etc.
The provenance of the papers would have to be rigorously
checked.

 >Or the as yet unnamed Canadian UFOlogist who received a
 >"suggestion" from government guys that he might want to consider
 >leaving the field, and having no further contact with Nick
 >Balaskas?

Stories like that are a dime a dozen. If I were given
such a suggestion, I would ask to see it in writing under
a gov. letterhead, so the writer and agency is clearly
indicated. Not being an 'unnamed source', I might do
things differently of course.


Best wishes

- Larry







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                     CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:45:05 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:49:25 -0400
Subject: CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies


Cydonian Imperative
5-4-03

"Old Man in the Mountain" Dies
by Mac Tonnies

See:

http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

(page 37)

Related links:

www.boston.com/news/daily/03/nh_old_man.htm

New Hampshire's beloved "Old Man in the Mountain," a natural
rock outcropping that resembles a human face in profile (but not
from other angles), has collapsed. The "Old Man" was a standby
for Cydonia debunkers who likened the Face to the New Hampshire
formation. The Old Man in the Mountain (recently immortalized on
a U.S. quarter) bore a crude humanoid resemblance that critics
of the Artificiality Hypothesis claimed could somehow account
for the Face, which displays secondary facial detail consistent
with an elaborate artificial structure.

[image]

Shape-from shading side-view of the Face on Mars by Chris
Joseph.

Along with Carl Sagan's famous comparison to "Jesus in a
tortilla chip" and more recent attempts to debunk the Face (such
as the consummately unfacelike Middle Butte Mesa and Camelback
Mountain), the Old Man epitomized the mainstream science
community's aversion to planetary SETI. Its demise is lamentable
but oddly appropriate; while the Face has yet to be proven
artificial, data acquired since it was first photographed by the
Viking mission in 1976 has stregthened the case for a non-
natural origin.

-end-







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                 Sphere Over 3 British Columbia Communities

From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:23:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:55:08 -0400
Subject: Sphere Over 3 British Columbia Communities


Glowing Sphere Over 3 British Columbia Communities

Houston, Quick & Telkwa

Date: April 24, 2003
Time: (starting at 10:55 p.m.)
Local & Toll Free UFO Hotline
Witnesses - 5

A little background on a sighting from July 29, 2002 first. The
reason I brought up this shortened report again is, why so many
sightings being seen around these areas. Military or government
testing?, or a natural phenomena, or something else! (Unknown).

Last year over the Houston, Quick and Telkwa skies we had a
rather large sighting which still has me baffled. As I and the
Smithers Interior newspaper reported on the sighting after it
happened, I soon found out that the story was growing by the
day. The week after the sighting on July 29, 2002 if seems
"dozens, upon dozens" of northern resident here in Houston,
Telkwa and Smithers were witnessing military vehicles which were
traveling highway #16 and on the back roads throughout the
areas. Also I found it more than strange to find out a large
amount of fixed winged aircraft and helicopters were flying so
very low all around these communities, and keeping their flights
at a very low level. Even I witnessed large transport aircraft
flying back and forth from the north to the south.

After a night out for dinner at a close friends home, I arrived
home to find two messages on my answer machine informing me that
there was a great deal of aircraft activity taking place some 80
kilometers out the Morice River Road. (in the middle of no
where). I was to meet up with one of the fellows who contacted
me. So at 3:00 a.m. I took a trip in his logging truck so he
could show me what he was talking about. Sure enough, just after
4:00 a.m. and still dark out, unknown lights were seen flying
freely and low across the sky. In the opposite direction an
aircraft was flying towards a light. After the two passed each
other the "aircraft" made it's turn to follow the strange light.

A full week, and longer, two different logging contracting crews
who were working in two separate areas. (or cut blocks) had
observed numerous aircraft flying low up the Morice Valley, and
low over the mountain peaks. (just so you know this would be
dangerous to say the least due to the rugged terrain, but there
they were looking for something, so witnesses said. Or at least
in their opinion, that's what they all thought was going on.

Reports on the above sighting can be found at my website under
British Columbia Sighting Reports.

Houston, B.C. (just west of)


Now on April 24, 2003, starting at 10:55 p.m. two witnesses here
in Houston, B.C. caught sight of a really interesting and
strange light/object. At approx: 2 kilometers west of the town
of Houston, just past the railway and highway #16 bridges these
two folks saw in front of them a small glowing sphere shaped
object almost sitting on highway #16 at the top of the hill they
were about to head up. (HBCC UFO Note): To give you an better of
where the witnesses were sitting when they spotted it. After
traveling through Houston heading west, it is pretty flat ground
with the Bulkley River winding along side the highway. At about
2 kms you would come to a blue bridge which crosses the Bulkley
River, as one leaves the other end of the bridge you then start
climbing a short, but steep hill heading in the direction of
Quick, Telkwa and Smithers, B.C. The witness had just crossed
the bridge when they caught sight of this light.)

As they headed up the hill, or approx; half ways up, the light
disappeared from their line of sight. Once they arrived at the
crest of the hill, again they noted the light moving north (away
from them), and flying almost straight, following highway 16 at
a low altitude. They told me that it was not much more than 80
to 100 feet off the road. The witnesses were at the time
traveling at a speed of approx: 80 to 90 k's per hour and the
object was slowly pulling a head of them. They lost sight of it
once again just before the Irrigation Lake turn off. (or close).
The only reason the object disappeared from their vision was due
to the tree line. (Plus curves and hills in their view). It was
the last time they saw the object. The total time that they
observed the event was approx: 20 to 30 seconds. The description
that was given of the object, was that it appeared to be
completely round, glowing, or for maybe a better word -
  pulsating. It was about the size of a small digital satellite
dish from the distance they had to view it. The object made no
sudden movements, such as to the right or left, it stayed on a
straight flight path. They also said because of the distance
they were from the light, they said there was no sound heard
coming from it. Also at one point the object seemed to light up
the center roadway markings. (solid white reflective center
lines).

Thank you to the Houston residents for their welcomed report.

Quick, B.C. (Woodmere Road just off Highway #16)

Date: April 24, 2003
Time: approx: 11:20 p.m.

On April 24, 2003 a farmer and his son out tending their cattle
on a dairy farm at Quick, British Columbia. Both also witnessed
the same object, or it seems to be. The son was hauling out
manure from the barn with their tractor when he gave out a yell
for his Dad to come out and look. When the Dad came out his son
was pointing toward the western edge of their farm, and sitting
at a dead stop just over top a group of evergreen and poplar
trees, was a bright ball of white/yellowish light. They said no
sound could be heard from it. HBCC UFO asked for an approx: size
to this object. The reply was that is may have been close to the
size of a full pick-up truck. Or as close as the witnesses could
estimate. The object/light was closer to the Quick residents
than the people driving just outside of Houston, B.C. which
would have given them a closer view of the object, and this is
why it looked larger. (in my estimation)

The sighting lasted for approx: 10 to 15 seconds, before it
started moving north towards the Telkwa/Smithers area. Both of
these Quick residents lost sight of the light/object after it
rose up slightly to get over a small hill in the distance. They
said what ever it was seemed to take it's time and flew in a
straight line to the west, but at a very low level before having
to gain a little in altitude to make it over top a hill. ( I
asked if any of the farm animals reacted to this event, both
said no).

Telkwa, B.C. (Object observed over Tyhee Lake)

Date: April 24, 2003
Time: approx: 11:45 p.m.

A fellow who resides in the Telkwa area was on his way home, he
left highway #16 and drove along the Telkwa High Road. Just has
he was adjacent with Tyhee Lake Provincial Park he observed a
ball of light flying "erratically" low over the lake. The
witness said the light/object was moving quite quickly and
reminded him if it was out of control when it first caught his
attention. He stopped his vehicle to watch, and wondered what he
was looking at. It was low enough that it did cast it's light
onto the lake below it. The man said he heard no sound, but I
was told he did remain in his vehicle as the "thing" flew up the
lake, moving from side to side, up and down, until it reached
almost half way up the lake, then it veered off to the northeast
towards the Babine Lake Provincial Park (or towards  Granisle
area) at a high rate of speed. (and clearing the mountain on the
other side of the lake). He said is was so weird and all
happened so fast, approx: 10 to 15 seconds at his guess. His
estimation of the size of it was close to the size of a small
car. The object was bright, and a off white in color.

The witness said if it wasn't for his wife telling him to call
me, he would not have known who to contact, or if he would as it
was so strange and he thought, who would believe me anyway ??

HBCC UFO Note: When I did my weekly radio UFO update show this
past Thursday I asked area residents to call or write if anyone
else had seen this event. Also I keep getting asked, why are
there so many reports of unknown sightings coming from the
pacific northwest here in British Columbia. Of course my reply
is, I really do not know !!! I know with all the media attention
I do get here, UFOs are a topic of discussion in the Saw Mill
lunch rooms, area businesses and private homes. So when
something is seen flying through the skies in northwest British
Columbia, there is a good chance I will receive a call or email.
But I do know, just in Houston, B.C. where I live, there have
been a great number of UFO sightings gone unreported as I hear
about one darn near once a week through a second hand party. I
do not report on any of these as I have not talked with the
witnesses who actually seen the unusual sight.

One more item I should also mention while I am here. I reported
to you folks, and so did the media a while back on a major
sighting which took place at Terrace, British Columbia, over
Lake Elselake. Triangles had been seen flying low over, or
around the lake. Finally I had a bit of a break through on this
case and hope to have a full report on this soon. To be honest,
I thought this may have been a hoax, but it is looking as if
something really did take place over that area. What, well that
is another question.

PS - If any more information on the above Houston/Quick/Telkwa
sightings come in, I will certainly post all new information on
this case. Plus I will be adding maps and photos to this case
when I upload the reports to my website. (There are no photos of
the object in question, but rather area photos of the places the
object was seen).


Take good care,

Brian

HBCC UFO Research
New Site - http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm
Main Site (Moving) http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html





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   May > May 4

               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Barry Taylor <stingray@manyrivers.aunz.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:56:49 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:59:56 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Dave Sadler <sadlebone@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

Hi Researchers and List members,

I would like to add my experiences to this particular discussion
bases upon my own personal contacts with the UFO Magazine (UK)
team.

I fully agree with the justified following comments of Dave
Sadler, and commend him for "nailing it" so precisely.

 >I can understand Chris Parr's accusations and thoughts on the
 >matter's concerning Sharon Larkin and Graham Birdsall..

 >Although the publication UFO Magazine is of a high standard, has
 >achieved commendable success and is one of the only paranormal
 >types available on UK news stands, it seems you have to be part
 >of the 'Birdsall clique' awarded with any mention within its
 >pages.

 >Many individuals including myself have forwarded information and
 >articles of a good quality to the magazine's hierarchy, only for
 >the information to obviously be dismissed. The same names
 >continue to be used. Many British ufologists, of high standing
 >outside of the magazine and who are currently involved in some
 >radical experiments, research and documentation, are disregarded
 >as unsuitable.

 >Should not a publication be impartial and offer its pages to all
 >within our realm?


Firstly, in 1997 I produced a video entitled "UFO Down-Under"
which contained 48 minutes of UFO footage that I had captured
between 1997-99 here in Australia.

Among this footage was the first ever video footage of the
Jellyfish type UFO with the dangling appendage. Anthony Woods
was the second person to film a similar object. It will be
interesting to eventually view this footage when Quest
International releases Wood's video in their current production.

After studying previous video releases by the Birdsall,
Callaghan team, I forecast that the Anthony Woods production
will contain some of the best real UFO footage to come out of
the UK. Hopefully, the voice over analysis does the footage the
justice it deserves.

See a stabilised video clip of my Jellyfish's unique tail motion
plus stills of Anthony Woods Jellyfish and compare the
similarities.

http://www.theozfactor.cjb.net/jelly~03.htm

The main feature in my video was footage of numerous UFO's of
various colours and shapes. This particular sighting was like a
peak event in Mexico and just as significant.

http://www.theozfactor.cjb.net/video~1.htm

After finalising my video, I contacted UFO Magazine (UK)
informing them of the video content, and offering to write an
article with images from the footage explaining what I had
witnessed during this 50 minute major sighting event during
daytime on 26 June 1999. This would have made a very interesting
and informative feature article about a significant real UFO
event. The reply to my offer was quote, "That sounds like an ad
for your video". Well, it never eventuated did it! UFO Magazine
subscribers and readers were robbed of what would have been the
type of article the magazine should be featuring.

So I posted them a complementary copy of my video production
saying they were welcome to freely use any of the footage in a
future video production of theirs so that UFO enthusiasts could
see UFOs from Down-Under and learn from the footage.

Eventually, I had to basically force a thank you out of them
months later. They could of at least informed me that it had
arrived. I had no idea it could take so much effort to say
thanks.

Quest International continues to publish video and magazine
articles containing birds and aircraft as UFO's. This I can
prove using video enhancing and image stabilisation techniques
and footage comparisons. This is one of the things you learn by
experience while being a dedicated skywatcher who has videoed
numerous real UFO's under a variety of conditions, and
developing video analysis as a speciality. As people like Tom
King will attest to.

The major article that UFO magazine readers will not read, is my
controversial analysis of the "Tether Footage".

Using specialised video stabilisation and various enhancing and
tracking combinations, I have been able to prove beyond
reasonable doubt, that the main larger object in the Tether
footage does in fact move infront of the tether and not behind
the tether as has openly been broadcast by a couple of
researchers who have published videos on the footage.

It is not a mile wide UFO behind the tether, it is a closer out
of focus smaller object, or Airy Disc.

This proof seriously conflicts with the emphatic statements of
Birdsall and Callaghan. Their statements, along with others with
credentials, is now cast in stone. Even if I am able to
demonstrate that the opposite is the truth and they are infact
wrong in their analysis, they do not want to hear about it.

Where is the scientific approach of UFO research going?

Shoot first the mouth then ask questions later?

Which is more important, the product or the proof?

Therefore my submitted article with images will never be printed
by them at least. But I do intend to include it on my web page
for all to see. Most UFO groups here in Australia already have a
copy of my video analysis of the Tether footage thanks to Mike
Farrell's UFO-VAC video for research purposes video exchange
service. Next is to distribute it around the world when the
exchange process continues. So if you have yet unseen UFO video
and wish to freely exchange for other unseen footage, than you
better contact Mike now ufovac@optusnet.com.au


Regards,

Barry Taylor







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   May > May 4

                     Re: FO Duck Hunting UpDate - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray@manyrivers.aunz.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:14:35 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:03:55 -0400
Subject: Re: FO Duck Hunting UpDate - Taylor


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >Subject: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >Below is an update in reference to my attempts to review and
 >analyze original footage of alleged UFOs taken by a Mr. Anthony
 >Woods.

<snip>

 >On Saturday, April 26, I received a letter from Graham W.
 >Birdsall for the attention of "Amy Herbert, Errol bruce Knapp,
 >Jeff Rense and James Neff" addressed to Santiago. In the
 >letter, Mr. Birdsall made it clear that Anthony Woods had given
 >(sold?) exclusive rights to his video footage to UFO Magazine UK
 >and no one was permitted to duplicate the materials for "review,
 >research, presentation or broadcast", etc.

<snip>

Amy, I too just downloaded the clip from the UFO Magazine (UK)
web site, and even though it is of a low resolution, I for one
am excited about the footage. To me it looks very interesting
UFO footage. Some of it unique.

I have personally witnessed and video taped numerous UFOs during
daytime. When you observe with the naked eye, you can see the
radiance and features of the object. When viewing the resulting
video footage, much of the visual characteristic of the
illumination associated with the object is lost. It is not until
you have observed UFOs during day time then study the resulting
footage do you get the knowledge of the variance between the
resulting footage and the real thing.

Example for me was having viewed footage taken by Skywatcher Tom
King and Chris Miller (USA) of the so named "cluster" UFOs.
These are white Orbs grouped so closely together that they look
like a bunch of grapes even balloons tied together. Their
special characteristic is the manner in which they roll and
tumble around one another.

It was not until I witnesses seven such cluster UFO groups
during my 50 minute 26 June 1999 daytime sighting (with
witness), did I then become aware of the true nature of this
type of object in the cluster groups. These are featured on my
UFO Down-Under video.

I too at first thought these may have been balloons tied
together, but when you take into account the brightness of the
illumination associated with the object and the unusual
composition or visual surface texture of the object, do you then
realise they are infact something unfamiliar. Their flight path
is mostly steady and do not alter altitude as loose balloons
would if free drifting in the wind. Do some test video of
balloons and you will see the difference.

You are free to comment on the UFO mags Anthony Woods footage as
you say, but be careful not to fall into the trap of incorrect
analysis on such small amounts of low res clips you have seen so
far. Be prepared and most importantly willing to change you mind
when you view the final production. Too many people have fallen
into this trap in the past. Some refuse to admit they were wrong
in the first quick analysis. Even Birdsall and Callaghan have
done this in the past. But this time it appears they are on a
winner with Anthony Wood's footage, so lets get behind them and
encourage this UFO Video Production.

One major asset that would benefit the quality of this footage
is image stabilisation. This would not only assist criticism and
accurate analysis, but allow closer steady zooms so that a good
look at the movement of the object is made possible.

When I eventually get my own copy of the Wood's footage, the
first thing I will do is stabilise the best clips than zoom in
on it. If you have not seen this done to previous footage, it is
amazing.

There you go Russ, there is an offer you should not refuse.

As far as Anthony being payed for his footage, good luck I say.
Researchers who devote the hours to capture UFO footage should
be well rewarded for their efforts. And Birdsall should rightly
maintain the rights to release of any footage while in
production. It costs lots of cash to produce and promote such a
video production, and we the recipient of their group effort get
it cheaply in the final product purchase price. It is our
interest to fully support them. They may not always get it
right, but neither do we.

I reserve my analysis comments until I have closely scrutinised
the final footage release.


Regards,

Barry Taylor







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   May > May 4

                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:43:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:16:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:57:51 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:48:01 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:18:24 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >><snip>

 >>>Hello Ian, Royce..:

 >>>I have to agree with your colleague. I don't believe in any
 >>>grand government conspiracy, what I see is the Gov acting
 >>>exactly like the Gov .. ass covering, inertia, you name it.

 >><snip>

 >>How, then, do you see the several repeated, comical
 >>"explanations" put forth by the USAF to explain the Roswell
 >>incident?  Or the testimony of eye witnesses?

 >>What's your take on Nick Balaskas' find in Ottawa archives of
 >>papers showing the Eisenhower administration had negotiations
 >>with aliens?

I know I am gone a lot, but don't understand how I could have
missed this one. What were these papers talking about
negotiations with aliens??

 >>Or the as yet unnamed Canadian UFOlogist who received a
 >>"suggestion" from government guys that he might want to consider
 >>leaving the field, and having no further contact with Nick
 >>Balaskas?

 >Those things are very interesting, but they're hardly proof of a
 >grand conspiracy. It's just not enough to hold up in the eyes of
 >objective criticism.

 >I need a bit more to believe, and I don't think I'm being
 >unreasonable to ask for such.


I, for one, don't know what a "grand conspiracy" is.

Are people following the rules laid down for classification
relating to National Security part of a grand conspiracy?

When I was doing classified research and development, I never
thought of myself as part of a conspiracy. The very heavily
blacked out UFO documents from the CIA and the whited out TOP
SECRET UMBRA UFO documents from the NSA, released under FOIA,
surely prove that at least these two government agencies are
continuing to withhold information about UFOs.

Is this a grand conspiracy?

I suppose one could consider the Manhattan Project a Grand
Conspiracy, as opposed to a highly classified R and D Project
whose existence wasn't even known by Vice President Harry
Truman, until he became President.

Remember that several years ago the DCI admitted having a black
budget of 26.6Billion dollars US.Is this a grand conspiracy?


Stan Friedman

www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html click on picture







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   May > May 4

               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:14:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 17:52:00 +0100
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >>From: Dave Sadler <sadlebone@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >Dave wrote:

 >>I can understand Chris Parr's accusations and thoughts on the
 >>matter's concerning Sharon Larkin and Graham Birdsall..

 >>Although the publication UFO Magazine is of a high standard, has
 >>achieved commendable success and is one of the only paranormal
 >>types available on UK news stands, it seems you have to be part
 >>of the 'Birdsall clique' awarded with any mention within its
 >>pages.

 >I couldn't disagree more Dave.

 >Both Dave Clarke and myself have had several articles in UFO
 >Magazine, yet anyone who knows anything about UK ufology knows
 >full well that we certainly aren't part of the 'Birdsall
 >clique'. Far from it in fact.

 >Graham runs a news stand magazine, the content of which is
 >governed by commercial considerations. Perhaps you and the
 >others just aren't sending material of high enough quality for
 >him to publish it? From a commercial point of view it is folly
 >for editors to ignore good quality material, and it was a lack
 >same which forced the UK news stand 'zines of the mid 90s to the
 >wall.

 >Whilst I don't agree with much of the content of UFO Mag, rather
 >than witter so, rather than criticising people for wittering
 >about the magazine perhaps you should writing something which is
 >properly researched, relevant and readable.


Folks.

I believe that I can add something to this discussion. I am a
UFO editor myself for nearly 20 years, and I have published
about 200 editions of 8 different publications in this field.
All of them for subscribers and news stands. The longest-lasting
is the Brazilian UFO Magazine, now in its 88th edition and still
running about 35,000-40,000 issues/monthly. Perhaps, I am the
oldest UFO editor in the world, ass far news stand publications
are concerned. I am even older than Graham Birdsall in this
field.

It is not easy to do such a job. Andy points out that Graham
"runs a news stand magazine which content is governed by
commercial considerations". Well, that is a fact for him, for my
UFO Magazine, for Vicki and Don Ecker's UFO Magazine, for
Italian Roberto Pinotti's UFO Magazine and anyone's else UFO
Magazine. If you don't follow that rule, you are out of the
market. However, what all of us UFO editors do, and I know that
Graham is a master in that, in keep an eye on what readers WANT
to read, which is not exacly the same to say to be "governed by
commercial considerations". But at same time, publish material
that they NEED to read, which could be translated as "having
real ufological considerations".

If you run a magazine only with what people NEED to know about
UFOs, with info and details that are most of the time inside to
UFO researchers, you cannot survive. And the same happens
otherwise, if you only publish material that readers WANT to
read. The combination of both is what you must do, so you can
commercially survive and make your publication running and
spread the message, the very and important message of the alien
presence. After almost 20 years doing this thing full time (I am
the only Brazilian UFO researchers totally devoted to and living
from this field), I believe this is the right way to do things.

Graham is a dear friend, a person who I admire profoundly. I
have been observing his trajectory with his magazine since the
beginning. I've been speaking in his conferences and he has been
speaking in ours. I am glad that I am his friend and proud that
I have learned a lot from him. His magazine is a result of an
immense, dedicated and fully devoted job of him, his family and
a small crew. UFO Magazine UK is spread all over the world,
taking to people the trully message that we are not only not
alone, but also being visited by several civilizations on a
regular basis.

I believe that Graham has done a lot for Ufology, employing
almost all his time and his family's time to produce a fine and
always growing publication. Imagine a world without the world's
leading UFO publication or, actually, the only one that
literally circulates all over the planet?!


A. J. Gevaerd
editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine.








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   May > May 4

                    Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Bright

From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:41:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:30:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Bright


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >Subject: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >Below is an update in reference to my attempts to review and
 >analyze original footage of alleged UFOs taken by a Mr. Anthony
 >Woods

<snip>

Hi Amy and List members,

For what it's worth, below is my take on this case.

Without being privy to the original footage, it's almost
impossible to come to any kind of firm conclusions as to its
veracity. All Joe Public can do is to rely upon the word of
those whom have been entrusted with the investigation and
research of these cases. Therefore, it's vital that the
investigation is carried out in a thoroughly transparent manner,
utilising the skills of those whom have earned reputations of
professional excellence in their respective fields.

Whilst I'm personally unable to come to any kind of satisfactory
judgement in respect to this footage due to the aforementioned
reasons, I do however note with unease that the material is
presently under the exclusive control of an enterprise with a
clear and overriding profit motive.

I understand that those at UFO magazine have given assurances
that the footage _will_ be provided to "experts" for analysis.
It remains to be seen _who_ is indeed given license to study the
first generation recordings in detail, although I'm encouraged
to see that they intend to seek "the expert opinion of people
who can help get to the truth".

It will also be interesting to see _when_ this is likely to
occur. Stringing the process out would no doubt be financially
advantageous, especially if there's an expectation that the
results of such scrutiny would not support either the
"anomalous" status, or significantly, more magazine/dvd sales. A
drip, drip process of limited and carefully controlled analysis,
combined with lashings of speculation, would surely do the sales
figures no harm.

The way in which this high profile case is handled will surely
have significant implications in respect to the credibility of
any research and investigation of this kind that is conducted by
those with a clear financial motive to arrive at one particular
set of conclusions.

In this case, the proof will be in the pudding; and not just in
relation to the Anthony Woods footage.

I was engaged in limited research into the circumstances
surrounding these cases last year, albeit only in a superficial
sense due to the fact that I did not have any direct contact
with any of the witnesses, nor view any original first
generation copies of the footage.

Although purporting to be using Mexican investigator Mr.Santiago
Yturria  _with exclusivity_  for the duration of his
involvement, I can reveal that, to the best of my knowledge,
  Mr. Yturria was not the only investigator or group who was
involved with this case, and indeed Anthony Woods has presented
his footage for "exclusive" study to four organisations and two
websites of which I'm aware.

His longest investigative relationship, until now, appears to
have been with Mr. Yturria, who incidentally provided by far the
greatest public exposure for his material through "exclusives"
at Rense.com. One particular article claimed that military
helicopter activity appeared to be occurring in response to the
appearance of UFO. A cursory study of Mr. Wood's locality
revealed the relatively close proximity to Portsmouth Naval
Base. I zipped off an e-mail to Jeff Rense advising him of this
fact, as I felt it to be a reasonably relevant piece of
information. As far as I'm aware, this was not published on the
website.

It is also worth noting that Havant is a home to Lockheed Martin
UK, a global enterprise principally engaged in the research,
design, development, manufacture and integration of advanced-
technology systems. With it's headquarters at Langstone
Technology Park, the company is heavily involved in the research
and development of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). There are
also RADAR research establishments in close proximity to the
Havant area, and several military installations.

In addition to the Woods footage, a woman hailing from the same
locality, namely that of Bedhampton, near Havant, has produced
voluminous and equally as noteworthy video "evidence" as Anthony
Woods. Nicknamed "Bambi", aka. Abby Parker, she also peddled her
videos around the houses, eventually ending up at Mr. Yturria's
door. Again, I have not been fortunate enough to have studied
the first generation tapes of her footage and so I'm unable to
make any firm claims as to its veracity.

In my limited correspondence with Mr. Yturria, I always found
him curteous and helpful. The doubts I have about these cases
are in no way meant to reflect negatively on Mr. Yturria or his
research. Mr. Yturria _has_ been privy to the original footage,
whereas I have not. I speak merely from a distance, and from the
stance of an interested outsider to the Woods/Parker cases.

All in all, these cases are dripping with possible avenues for
_serious_ and _rigorous_ enquiry, and I await the results of UFO
magazine's investigation with interest.


Regards,

Dan Bright
dan@theunexplained.info





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                         Re: New At Magonia - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:10:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: New At Magonia - Rimmer


Some new stuff on the Magonia website which might be of interest:

The Pelican explains why ufology needs better quality control
for its raw data

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/pelican11.htm


Magonia Review of Books, April

Including bad astronomy, crazy politics and a sensible look at
the Mothman

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/april03.htm


Kevin McClure Index

Three of Kevin's major feature articles and the full archive of
'Abduction Watch' conveniently indexed

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/news/reviews/kevinindex.htm


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                            Rael In UFO Magazine

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:18:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:40:00 -0400
Subject: Rael In UFO Magazine


To Don and Vicki Ecker and the List

I have just received in France and read the new issue of 'UFO
Magazine', now titled 'UFO'.

There are several articles on Raelians and cloning, with this
exciting cover announcement:

"Raelians + Cloning = Immortality?"
"True/Fraud"

For those who don't read it, here are the articles presented:
"Clonegate and the media", by Richard Dolan (3 pages);

"Are we on the "eve" of Cloned Human Reproduction?",
by Vicki Ecker (2 pages);

"Cloning and Immortality: Rael's Vision", by Norman Doering
(5 pages);

"Birth of a New Science. Interview with Raelian Damien Marsic"
by Sean Casteel (3 pages).

(Marsic is a young scientist who joined Raelians at 18)

That makes a total of 13 pages on the Raelians and their
cloning claims.

I must say, in all friendness, that you missed a major question.
At no point did you raise the question, the first question for
any ufologist, of the credibility of the Frenchman Claude
Vorilhon, alias Rael, as a contactee.

I sent you an article at you request, and you told me that you
would just quote it, but you did not even do that. (I posted it
recently on UFO Updates).

Irrelevant question? Well, it never will be to me, as long as I
keep an interest in UFOs. In my opinion, as well as of almost
all French ufologists, his credibility as a contactee as close
to zero as you can get.

Now, about your set of articles, there is a point on which I
agree. The media probably took a wrong angle of attack when they
put in doubt the reality of the Raelian cloning.

The fact is, we don't know yet. And if it happens to be
confirmed, what a mess it will be, not only for science but also
for ufology!


Gildas Bourdais








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                      Oberg's STS-48 'Original Report'

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 10:16:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:35:08 -0400
Subject: Oberg's STS-48 'Original Report'


 From James Oberg's 'Original Report' on the STS-48 video in
December, 1992:

http://bedlam.rutgers.edu/ufo/oberg.txt


"What is the 'flare' in the camera that precedes the change in
motion of all the objects? I believe the flare
_in_the_lower_left_camera_FOV_ is an RCS jet firing, not per
  Hoagland  an electromagnetic pulse effect. There are several
reasons: it does not look like any known electromagnetic video
interference; it looks just like previously seen RCS flares;"

[Emphasis mine]


A location in the lower left corner of the FOV is in the
direction of the rockets in the spacecraft's aft end. If the
presence of a flare at that position means that it was produced
by a rocket firing, then obviously any other location is
compelling evidence that it was _not_ caused by a thruster
firing. As I showed in my article, there is NO flare in the
lower left corner of the image. It is all in the _upper_ left
corner where the pre-existing lens flare is located. Oberg here
argues based on non-existent evidence. To quote the words of a
pompous "space expert," Oberg's assertion is not EVEN an
approximation. It is JUST PLAIN WRONG. He obviously did no real
work on this problem, let alone any original research as I had
mistakenly thought. His "contribution" has been writing
debunking screeds in which he regurgitates information spoon-fed
to him by NASA sources.

Oberg's incompetent image analysis and other dubious activities
over the past decade have done immeasurable damage to the
progress of serious scientific investigation into phenomena of
the sort shown in the STS-48 video.

Oberg closes his "report" with the conclusion:

"So Hoagland's explanation is magical and unrealistic."

Hoagland's EM pulse theory turned out to be incorrect, but it
was downright prosaic compared to the supernatural powers
Oberg's magical thinking has attributed to these tiny vernier
thruster rockets.

BTW: No image-processing experience is needed at all to see what
I called "the true nature" of the flash in the STS-48 video. All
you need is a QuickTime digital movie player, or something of
the sort that allows you to advance the video frame by frame
with a slider bar. You can confirm for yourself that the pre-
existing lens flare and the flash are one and the same. If
anyone is interested, I can email them a short sequence from the
video that shows the progression of the lens flare "blooming"
from the upper left corner of the FOV. Unlike certain "space
experts" I back up my conclusions with evidence, not hot air and
lies.








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                         More UFO Research Software

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:52:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:44:04 -0400
Subject: More UFO Research Software



Greetings

While at the Ozark conference I met a young lady, Heather
Ahrens, who has developed Anomaly Research Database Software
which might be useful for researchers who do a lot of UFO
sighting or crop circle field research.

This program was originally designed by Heather for law
enforcement. It was sold to various sheriff and police
departments for cataloguing their various crime cases.

Heather's site "International Unexplained Sciences and
Extraterrestrial Research" is at

http://www.iuser.iwarp.com/

for those who wish to check it out.

Grant
--







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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:37:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:57:49 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: Barry Taylor <stingray@manyrivers.aunz.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:56:49 +1000
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >I would like to add my experiences to this particular
 >discussion bases upon my own personal contacts with the UFO
 >Magazine (UK) team.

 >I fully agree with the justified following comments of Dave
 >Sadler, and commend him for "nailing it" so precisely.

 >Firstly, in 1997 I produced a video entitled "UFO Down-Under"
 >which contained 48 minutes of UFO footage that I had captured
 >between 1997-99 here in Australia.

 >Among this footage was the first ever video footage of the
 >Jellyfish type UFO with the dangling appendage. Anthony Woods
 >was the second person to film a similar object. It will be
 >interesting to eventually view this footage when Quest
 >International releases Wood's video in their current production.

 >After studying previous video releases by the Birdsall,
 >Callaghan team, I forecast that the Anthony Woods production
 >will contain some of the best real UFO footage to come out of
 >the UK. Hopefully, the voice over analysis does the footage

 >See a stabilised video clip of my Jellyfish's unique tail
 >motion plus stills of Anthony Woods Jellyfish and compare the
 >similarities.

 >http://www.theozfactor.cjb.net/jelly~03.htm

 >The main feature in my video was footage of numerous UFO's of
 >various colours and shapes. This particular sighting was like
 >a peak event in Mexico and just as significant.

 >http://www.theozfactor.cjb.net/video~1.htm

Folks, I've seen Barry Taylor's video and it's worth looking at.
He doesn't dress it up with a lot of fancy graphics and titles
and goo-gaws. Not a lot of talking heads and speculations. It's
just a good, straightforward collection of sightings of
something from one area Down Under.

Worth a look-see, if you're so inclined.


Brenda Denzler








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               Re: CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:10:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:26:55 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies - Hatch


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:45:05 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: CI: 'Old Man In The Mountain' Dies

 >Cydonian Imperative
 >5-4-03

 >"Old Man in the Mountain" Dies
 >by Mac Tonnies

 >See:

 >http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

 >(page 37)

 >Related links:

 >www.boston.com/news/daily/03/nh_old_man.htm

 >New Hampshire's beloved "Old Man in the Mountain," a natural
 >rock outcropping that resembles a human face in profile (but not
 >from other angles), has collapsed. The "Old Man" was a standby
 >for Cydonia debunkers who likened the Face to the New Hampshire
 >formation. The Old Man in the Mountain (recently immortalized on
 >a U.S. quarter) bore a crude humanoid resemblance that critics
 >of the Artificiality Hypothesis claimed could somehow account
 >for the Face, which displays secondary facial detail consistent
 >with an elaborate artificial structure.

 >[image]

 >Shape-from shading side-view of the Face on Mars by Chris
 >Joseph.

 >Along with Carl Sagan's famous comparison to "Jesus in a
 >tortilla chip" and more recent attempts to debunk the Face (such
 >as the consummately unfacelike Middle Butte Mesa and Camelback
 >Mountain), the Old Man epitomized the mainstream science
 >community's aversion to planetary SETI. Its demise is lamentable
 >but oddly appropriate; while the Face has yet to be proven
 >artificial, data acquired since it was first photographed by the
 >Viking mission in 1976 has stregthened the case for a non-
 >natural origin.


Jesus in a Tortilla Chip? I missed that one. I thought it was
Sister Mary Theresa in a potato chip.

SMT is easier, she had a face like a saintly mudslide.


Best

- Larry







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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:35:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:13:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Hatch


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:43:44 -0300

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:57:51 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >>>What's your take on Nick Balaskas' find in Ottawa archives of
 >>>papers showing the Eisenhower administration had negotiations
 >>>with aliens?

 >I know I am gone a lot, but don't understand how I could have
 >missed this one. What were these papers talking about
 >negotiations with aliens??

 >>>Or the as yet unnamed Canadian UFOlogist who received a
 >>>"suggestion" from government guys that he might want to consider
 >>>leaving the field, and having no further contact with Nick
 >>>Balaskas?

 >>Those things are very interesting, but they're hardly proof of a
 >>grand conspiracy. It's just not enough to hold up in the eyes of
 >>objective criticism.

 >>I need a bit more to believe, and I don't think I'm being
 >>unreasonable to ask for such.

 >I, for one, don't know what a "grand conspiracy" is.

 >Are people following the rules laid down for classification
 >relating to National Security part of a grand conspiracy?

 >When I was doing classified research and development, I never
 >thought of myself as part of a conspiracy. The very heavily
 >blacked out UFO documents from the CIA and the whited out TOP
 >SECRET UMBRA UFO documents from the NSA, released under FOIA,
 >surely prove that at least these two government agencies are
 >continuing to withhold information about UFOs.

 >Is this a grand conspiracy?

 >I suppose one could consider the Manhattan Project a Grand
 >Conspiracy, as opposed to a highly classified R and D Project
 >whose existence wasn't even known by Vice President Harry
 >Truman, until he became President.

 >Remember that several years ago the DCI admitted having a black
 >budget of 26.6Billion dollars US.Is this a grand conspiracy?


Hello Stan:

I suppose its a matter of legality. With wartime secrecy and
emergency legislation in effect, nobody I know of has called
keeping Truman in the dark about the Manhattan Project illegal.

Grand simply means 'great' or very large scale.

IF the Gov. had crashed saucers hidden away for decades, and/or
concealed Eisenhower's contacts with space aliens and the like
for the same decades, I would think that its patently illegal.
This could be called a Grand Conspiracy in my book.

It was Eleanor who brought up Eisenhower's alien 'contact'.

I'm only guessing here, but I suppose that might derive from
events in Southern California in the early 1950s.

Eisenhower, forever followed by the press, simply dropped out of
sight for a while. Later, somebody more-or-less officially let
it be known that Ike had gone to a dentist.

Conspiracy theorists (if that's the proper term) concluded that
he was taken to see alien craft and/or bodies in a nearby
military facility, with the dentist as a cover story. Actual
contact with live aliens would be a new twist, assuming I'm
talking about he same story.

Every time somebody dredges that up, and by all means see
Eleanor's original post (secret agents from unspecified
government agencies warning unnamed souls from associating with
UFO people etc.), the words "Grand Conspiracy" just pop into my
head automatically.

I'm sorry if that sounds jaded.


Best wishes

- Larry







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                     Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:21:26 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:26:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:18:19 +0200
 >Subject: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >To Don and Vicki Ecker and the List

 >I have just received in France and read the new issue of 'UFO
 >Magazine', now titled 'UFO'.

 >There are several articles on Raelians and cloning, with this
 >exciting cover announcement:

 >"Raelians + Cloning = Immortality?"
 >"True/Fraud"

 >For those who don't read it, here are the articles presented:
 >"Clonegate and the media", by Richard Dolan (3 pages);

 >"Are we on the "eve" of Cloned Human Reproduction?",
 >by Vicki Ecker (2 pages);

 >"Cloning and Immortality: Rael's Vision", by Norman Doering
 >(5 pages);

 >"Birth of a New Science. Interview with Raelian Damien Marsic"
 >by Sean Casteel (3 pages).
 >
 >(Marsic is a young scientist who joined Raelians at 18)
 >
 >That makes a total of 13 pages on the Raelians and their
 >cloning claims.
 >
 >I must say, in all friendness, that you missed a major question.
 >At no point did you raise the question, the first question for
 >any ufologist, of the credibility of the Frenchman Claude
 >Vorilhon, alias Rael, as a contactee.
 >
 >I sent you an article at you request, and you told me that you
 >would just quote it, but you did not even do that. (I posted it
 >recently on UFO Updates).
 >
 >Irrelevant question? Well, it never will be to me, as long as I
 >keep an interest in UFOs. In my opinion, as well as of almost
 >all French ufologists, his credibility as a contactee as close
 >to zero as you can get.
 >
 >Now, about your set of articles, there is a point on which I
 >agree. The media probably took a wrong angle of attack when they
 >put in doubt the reality of the Raelian cloning.
 >
 >The fact is, we don't know yet. And if it happens to be
 >confirmed, what a mess it will be, not only for science but also
 >for ufology!


Gildas,

Rael was in Brazil last March signing books and trying to
lecture in a few places. At a Mall in Sao Paulo, where he signed
his books, only a few people showed up. He wasn't more than a
curiosity for people walking around and shopping. We had someone
talking to him and evaluating the real proposals of his
appearence.

A few days later he was in Porto Alegre for what the Raelians
advertised as a big event and lecture on cloning. Again, only a
few people and journalists appeared, and then he decided to
cancel the conference (he claims he doesn't speak for less than
500 people).

While moving in and out the venue, he was disturbed by about 100
people protesting in a political rally. He felt happy as he
thought they were there because of him and his cloning ideas,
but they they were not. The rally was because of another issue
involving transgenic food.

To summarize: his trip to Brazil was a total failure.


A. J.







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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Robert Frola <ufologist@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:46:01 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:47:04 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:14:28 -0300
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >Folks.

 >I believe that I can add something to this discussion. I am a
 >UFO editor myself for nearly 20 years, and I have published
 >about 200 editions of 8 different publications in this field.
 >All of them for subscribers and news stands. The longest-lasting
 >is the Brazilian UFO Magazine, now in its 88th edition and still
 >running about 35,000-40,000 issues/monthly. Perhaps, I am the
 >oldest UFO editor in the world, ass far news stand publications
 >are concerned. I am even older than Graham Birdsall in this
 >field.

 >It is not easy to do such a job. Andy points out that Graham
 >"runs a news stand magazine which content is governed by
 >commercial considerations". Well, that is a fact for him, for my
 >UFO Magazine, for Vicki and Don Ecker's UFO Magazine, for
 >Italian Roberto Pinotti's UFO Magazine and anyone's else UFO
 >Magazine. If you don't follow that rule, you are out of the
 >market. However, what all of us UFO editors do, and I know that
 >Graham is a master in that, in keep an eye on what readers WANT
 >to read, which is not exacly the same to say to be "governed by
 >commercial considerations". But at same time, publish material
 >that they NEED to read, which could be translated as "having
 >real ufological considerations".

 >If you run a magazine only with what people NEED to know about
 >UFOs, with info and details that are most of the time inside to
 >UFO researchers, you cannot survive. And the same happens
 >otherwise, if you only publish material that readers WANT to
 >read. The combination of both is what you must do, so you can
 >commercially survive and make your publication running and
 >spread the message, the very and important message of the alien
 >presence. After almost 20 years doing this thing full time (I am
 >the only Brazilian UFO researchers totally devoted to and living
 >from this field), I believe this is the right way to do things.

 >Graham is a dear friend, a person who I admire profoundly. I
 >have been observing his trajectory with his magazine since the
 >beginning. I've been speaking in his conferences and he has been
 >speaking in ours. I am glad that I am his friend and proud that
 >I have learned a lot from him. His magazine is a result of an
 >immense, dedicated and fully devoted job of him, his family and
 >a small crew. UFO Magazine UK is spread all over the world,
 >taking to people the trully message that we are not only not
 >alone, but also being visited by several civilizations on a
 >regular basis.

 >I believe that Graham has done a lot for Ufology, employing
 >almost all his time and his family's time to produce a fine and
 >always growing publication. Imagine a world without the world's
 >leading UFO publication or, actually, the only one that
 >literally circulates all over the planet?!


I have to agree and disagree with Ademar. I have published the
Australasian Ufologist Magazine now for seven years. It is a
subscriber and news-stand publication and is Australia's and New
Zealands only UFO, Paranormal and the Unexplained magazine.

It is a magazine dedicated to UFO Research by UFO Researchers,
and I try to combine both research and commercial
considerations, a combination which I think works very well. The
Australasian Ufologist Magazine has been around as long as
Graham's UFO Magazine. The only difference is the approach we
have to how the magazine is marketed. Anyone who has seen both
magazines can speak on my behalf.

Many say you can't survive out there without being heavily
commercialize? I disagree. We survive on little, if no paid
advertising, relying on book and video sales and the strength of
the articles placed within its covers.

Does it work? We are still here and sales are improving. It
may not be a highly polished glossy magazine like Grahams or
Ademar but we do spread the message, the very and important
message of the alien presence here on Planet Earth.

Cheers

Robert Frola
Editor
The Australasian Ufologist Magazine
Co-Editor
Hard Evidence Magazine (formerly Exposure Magazine)







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                       Re: UFO 'Detector' - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:44:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:51:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector' - Goldstein


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 13:08:04 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector'

 >>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
 >>Subject: UFO 'Detector'

 >>I want everyone on this List to 'fess up. You own one of these,
 >>don't you :-)

 >>Not being strong in electronics I'm gonna go out on a limb and
 >>presume that there are a myriad of events that could set this
 >>thing off.

 >>http://www.ufo-detector.com/

 >>Terry

 >>http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

 >>[I'm sure Birnes & The Cooper-Eckers will thank you
 >> for boosting the hits on the Ad. too --ebk]

 >Dear EBK, Terry and all:

 >Having replaced lithium batteries etc., I suggest a low-tech
 >solution to the UFO detection scheme, at least on the 'magnetic
 >disturbance' theme:

 >You need only 4 things, and no batteries:

 >a) A length of iron pipe, maybe 2 feet (600 cm plus or minus
 >90%)

 >b) An equal length of copper pipe, but of double the diameter so
 >that the copper pipe fits easily and loosely into the iron one.

 >c) 6 bucks or so to replace the drill bit you
 >borrow. You might break it.

 >d) A soft pillow.

 >Procedure:

 >1) Drill a 1/4-inch hole in the copper pipe. Update your health
 >insurance and do likewise with the iron pipe.

 >2) Slip the thinner pipe inside of the one with the wider
 >diameter.

 >3) Slip any cord or string thru the holes in both pipes so that
 >one is suspended loosely inside the other.

 >4) Hang this assembly anywhere that you can hear it in case a
 >passing UFO makes it clang like a bell. The garage is a good
 >place unless it is too far away.

 >5) Rest head on soft pillow. This could take a long time.

 >Theory of operation is simple. Breezes and earthquakes should
 >affect one pipe as much as the other, thus no clanging.

 >IF a UFO generates strong magnetic anomalies, these should swing
 >the iron pipe but not the copper one. This sets one clapping
 >against the other like a bell.

 >The downside is that this simple device will not detect night-
 >lights.

 >Cats or burglars may set off false alarms, but dogs will usually
 >leave things alone unless they are stinky. Wash pipes if you
 >have dogs, and hang assembly where cats cannot get at it. A
 >rafter in the garage is ideal.

 >Any seldom used closet will do in an apartment. You can disguise
 >the assembly it in your 'Sunday suit', as long as one pipe is
 >freely suspended inside the other one. Otherwise, tell visitors
 >that it is an 'anti-wind chime' which only rings when you go to
 >church. This might require two pillows, but nothing above
 >requires big bucks.



Hi Larry,

Your version sounds nifty but if a UFO is coming you don't want to
sleep through the experience. Of course if you are going to become
an abductee it is already too late and too futile. If it is one of
the classes of sighting, in your neighborhood, then it would be a
shame to snore through it on that soft set of pillows.

At home do you really have certainty that a little metal
clanging will wake you up? Why not have it wired up so that
closing the gap between the two pipes closes a circuit or the
lack of resistance triggers off a relay on your household
wiring. That could be wired to your home burglar alarm, turn on
your clock radio, flash your lights, ring your doorbell,
whatever you want. I suggest that you learn a little about
electricity and its dangers before you try this at home.

Larry, you and I come from the earthquake country in California.
These UFO detectors could become a pain in the butt, often going on
alarm. To folks who have never been through major earthquakes and
tremors, if it is not strong enough to wake you up then it is not
strong enough to cause much damage. No point wasting sleep over
them.

For Eleanor White, your primary concern is with alleged US
Governmint mind control being in existence today. I don't
remember if I have asked you if a claimant has tried sleeping
inside a Faraday cage and has seen whether the problem has
continued taking place. If that experiment has not taken place
you may want to build your own at home to sleep within. You can
get metal you can use for it at a very low scrap price. Plans
could be sent to your colleagues and it may be a worthy group
experiment if properly designed and executed.

If it is shown to reduce or remove those alleged signals sent to
your and others brains then phase two would need to be
initiated. That stage of the trial would be to see if a Faraday
cage reduced to the size of your head has an effect and if that
differed from the full bed cage size. If a head size Faraday
does prevent mind control then you may have a cottage industry
if you so desire in the future. Of course you will need to
closely watch how the "UFO Detector" sales work before trying to
use this as a fundraiser for your campaign.


My idle thoughts,

Josh










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                NC Couple Reports Seeing UFO Wednesday Night

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:00:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:00:31 -0400
Subject: NC Couple Reports Seeing UFO Wednesday Night



Source: The Pilot - Southern Pines, North Carolina

http://www.thepilot.com/news/050403ufo.html


Couple Reports Seeing UFO Wednesday Night

By Matthew Moriarty: Staff Writer

A local man and his wife saw what he describes as a UFO
Wednesday night.

The unidentified flying object appeared as a bright white light,
hovered for a moment then flew across the sky "with the speed of
a meteor," said Fred Lloyd, an assistant golf pro at Whispering
Pines Golf Course.

The light appeared to him and his wife, Nancy Lee, above the
tree tops on the right side of the road on U.S. 1 near Niagara
at almost 9 p.m. as the two were coming home from church, Lloyd
said. It lingered then flew across the sky and disappeared,
Lloyd said. The entire sighting lasted about two seconds.

The light was much bigger than a meteor, Lloyd said, and
brighter than the moon. When Lloyd and his wife first noticed
the UFO they saw it out of the corner of their eyes, Lloyd said,
and it appeared as if there were two or three lights. When they
got a better look, there was just one.

When the light headed north and disappeared, Lloyd said the
sighting left him feeling excited and a little out of sorts.

"It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up," he said.

Lloyd joked about whether people would think he was odd for
claiming to have seen a UFO.

"Half the people who know me think I'm credible, and the other
half know I'm not," he said. "My wife is one of the most
credible people in the world."

Nine out of ten times a sighting that happens over such a short
period of time turns out to be a meteor, said UFO investigator
George Fawcett, of Lincolnton. Fawcett has investigated over
3,000 UFO sightings in 80 different countries over 60 years.

Sightings usually happen near military bases or nuclear power
plants, Fawcett said.

Lloyd has no idea what he saw, but he believes that it wasn't a
meteor or an airplane.

"This, to me, has no explanation," he said. "Nothing that I know
of in the sky can act like that."

Think you saw what Lloyd describes? Report your sighting to the
UFO Center in Seattle, Wash. at (206) 722-3000 or fill out a
report at ufocenter.com.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]






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                      Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Bowden

From: Tom Bowden <tomrbowden@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:48:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:19:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Bowden


Dear List,

It is unfortunate that we continue to see any posts about this
Raelian nonsense, but at least the news of the lack of
enthusiasm in Brazil is encouraging.

I suppose it is important to keep informed as to the whereabouts
and the activities of these sorts. You never know when they are
going to pop up and grab all sorts of media attention.


Tom B.







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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:16:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:24:21 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -



 >From: Robert Frola <ufologist@hypermax.net.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:46:01 +1000
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:14:28 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

<snip>

 >I have to agree and disagree with Ademar. I have published the
 >Australasian Ufologist Magazine now for seven years. It is a
 >subscriber and news-stand publication and is Australia's and New
 >Zealands only UFO, Paranormal and the Unexplained magazine.

 >It is a magazine dedicated to UFO Research by UFO Researchers,
 >and I try to combine both research and commercial
 >considerations, a combination which I think works very well. The
 >Australasian Ufologist Magazine has been around as long as
 >Graham's UFO Magazine. The only difference is the approach we
 >have to how the magazine is marketed. Anyone who has seen both
 >magazines can speak on my behalf.

 >Many say you can't survive out there without being heavily
 >commercialized? I disagree. We survive on little, if no paid
 >advertising, relying on book and video sales and the strength
 >of the articles placed within its covers.

 >Does it work? We are still here and sales are improving. It
 >may not be a highly polished glossy magazine like Grahams or
 >Ademar but we do spread the message, the very and important
 >message of the alien presence here on Planet Earth.


Hi Robert.

Thanks for the comments. I believe, however, that maybe I
haven=B4t expressed myself correctly. I totally disagree with the
idea of "you can't survive out there without being heavily
commercialize", that you mention, and with which you disagree.
The problem here is the word "heavily". I never implied that in
my message. Only that you have to get both commercial and
ufological considerations, in a balanced way. And while useing
commercial considerations, never let it get bigger than the real
UFO message.

I receive from time to time your Australasian Ufologist
Magazine, which I certainly appreciate. Indeed. My UFO magazine
is not even close to Graham=B4s. We are only 52 pages, much like
yours. Graham=B4s last editions have gone far away 120 pages. I
can only imagine the work you have to put in it to make a
magazine like that. My magazine is a very simple one. I work as
reporter, editor, artist, graphic designer etc by myself. In
golden days I had 12 people working in my staff, which is now
reduced to 4, including me...

We don=B4t carry any advertisement pages, which would help to pay
the bills. But it is not because we don=B4t want, but because most
business don=B4t want to have their names and products involved
with UFOs. I guess that you have the same problem in Asutralia
and New Zealand. Here in Brazil we still face lots of problems
in trying to get a serious discussion about UFOs going.

To run a UFO magazine isn=B4t a profitable activity. Far from it.
These days I can barely live from it and have to work at least
14-16 hours a day. Many people have tried to launch magazines in
this field in Brazil and they all failed, because there is no
money in this thing. My magazine is alive thanks to a real
devotion that I apply to it. If I use the same energy, time and
talent I apply to the magazine in any other activity, I would
probably be rich after 20 years. But certainly I wouldn=B4t be
nearly as happy as I am.

Best....


A. J.







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                         Re: UFO 'Detector' - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:45:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:27:44 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector' - Hatch


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:44:07 +0200
 >Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector'

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 13:08:04 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector'

 >>>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
 >>>Subject: UFO 'Detector'

<snip>

 >Hi Larry,

 >Your version sounds nifty but if a UFO is coming you don't want
 >to sleep through the experience. Of course if you are going to
 >become an abductee it is already too late and too futile. If it
 >is one of the classes of sighting, in your neighborhood, then
 >it would be a shame to snore through it on that soft set of
 >pillows.

Agreed.

 >At home do you really have certainty that a little metal
 >clanging will wake you up?

It would probably wake me up, except on Saturdays maybe.

 >Why not have it wired up so that closing the gap between the two
 >pipes closes a circuit or the lack of resistance triggers off a
 >relay on your household wiring. That could be wired to your home
 >burglar alarm, turn on your clock radio, flash your lights, ring
 >your doorbell, whatever you want.

That's a fine idea. Scotch-brite the iron pipe so that there is
no non-conductive oxides, and you have two contacts for a switch.
Attach one wire to each pipe, attach it to anything you like.

 >I suggest that you learn a little about
 >electricity and its dangers before you try this at home.

I would be out of a job if I weren't deeply into electronic
circuits and the like. Caution is advised however. I would
not use an exposed device like this to switch 120 VAC unless
I hated cats. Hmmm ...

 >Larry, you and I come from the earthquake country in California.
 >These UFO detectors could become a pain in the butt, often going on
 >alarm. To folks who have never been through major earthquakes and
 >tremors, if it is not strong enough to wake you up then it is not
 >strong enough to cause much damage. No point wasting sleep over
 >them.

I was hoping that the two pipes would swing in unison, at least
for small tremors, not setting off false alarms. A larger quake
would wake most people up anyway.

 >For Eleanor White, your primary concern is with alleged US
 >Governmint mind control being in existence today. I don't
 >remember if I have asked you if a claimant has tried sleeping
 >inside a Faraday cage and has seen whether the problem has
 >continued taking place. If that experiment has not taken place
 >you may want to build your own at home to sleep within. You can
 >get metal you can use for it at a very low scrap price. Plans
 >could be sent to your colleagues and it may be a worthy group
 >experiment if properly designed and executed.

 >If it is shown to reduce or remove those alleged signals sent to
 >your and others brains then phase two would need to be
 >initiated. That stage of the trial would be to see if a Faraday
 >cage reduced to the size of your head has an effect and if that
 >differed from the full bed cage size. If a head size Faraday
 >does prevent mind control then you may have a cottage industry
 >if you so desire in the future. Of course you will need to
 >closely watch how the "UFO Detector" sales work before trying
 >to use this as a fundraiser for your campaign.

 >My idle thoughts,

 >Josh

Aluminum foil Mind Control Deflector Beanies are described on
this website. They have several links at the left, I like the
testimonials:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Something similar could be easily shaped and fashioned to shield
other parts of the body, for foot control say.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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              Re: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Stuart

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:38:57 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:30:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Stuart


 >From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:58:29 +1000
 >Subject: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia

 >Italian Satellite Drops From Sky over Australia

<snip>

 >"Time was 10.04 pm". "At first we thought it was a plane
 >crashing so we watched it until it disappeared over the tops of
 >tree's to the west. Steven of Bigger Water said: "I was
 >traveling along Merleen avenue at 10.05 pm when I noticed an
 >object come flying over from the >east, I turned my car around
 >as the object >was travelling west to get a better look". "It
 >looked like a very large meteor, glowing >metallic white to
 >gold in colour with a tail".

 >I thought this has to be a satellite reentering as
 >it was huge."

<snip>

First of all, I thought I read about this satellite coming down
on Thursday or Friday in the Pacific near South America! Is this
a different Italian satellite?

Also, I've never heard of a satellite traveling from East to
West. Does this happen?

--Chaz







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                          UFOs Taped Over Baghdad?

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 23:35:42 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:33:25 -0400
Subject: UFOs Taped Over Baghdad?


Not much to go on here. No date given for the event, etc. Will
search news for further info.

--Chaz

=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7=D7

Baghdad: UFO in Baghdad skies
Sunday, May 04 2003 @ 01:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Contributed by: Admin

Iraqis familiar with the flashes of missiles in the sky, were
bewildered when they noticed an undefined light in the sky of
Baghdad.

Residents saw the strange sky material between Palestine Hotel
and Shareton Hotel and thought they were UFOs.

Press members also noticed the unbelievable sky material
surrounded with lights and they video taped the unbelievable
scene. The UFO could be seen for three hours than disappeared.


http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=3D20030504130247424







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                     Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:59:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:37:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Bourdais


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:21:26 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:18:19 +0200
 >>Subject: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >Gildas,

 >Rael was in Brazil last March signing books and trying to
 >lecture in a few places. At a Mall in Sao Paulo, where he signed
 >his books, only a few people showed up. He wasn't more than a
 >curiosity for people walking around and shopping. We had someone
 >talking to him and evaluating the real proposals of his
 >appearence.

<snip>

 >To summarize: his trip to Brazil was a total failure.


Hello, A. J.

Thanks you for the good news from Brazil. I hope the situation
will remain that way in your country!

Gildas







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                     Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 07:59:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:09:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:59:17 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:21:26 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:18:19 +0200
 >>>Subject: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >>Rael was in Brazil last March signing books and trying to
 >>lecture in a few places. At a Mall in Sao Paulo, where he signed
 >>his books, only a few people showed up. He wasn't more than a
 >>curiosity for people walking around and shopping. We had someone
 >>talking to him and evaluating the real proposals of his
 >>appearence.

 ><snip>

 >>To summarize: his trip to Brazil was a total failure.

 >Hello, A. J.

 >Thanks you for the good news from Brazil. I hope the situation
 >will remain that way in your country!

Certainly will, Gildas. We have both eyes totally open over guys
like this...

A. J.






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                      Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:44:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:49:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Kaeser


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:21:26 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >Rael was in Brazil last March signing books and trying to
 >lecture in a few places. At a Mall in Sao Paulo, where he signed
 >his books, only a few people showed up. He wasn't more than a
 >curiosity for people walking around and shopping. We had someone
 >talking to him and evaluating the real proposals of his
 >appearence.

 >A few days later he was in Porto Alegre for what the Raelians
 >advertised as a big event and lecture on cloning. Again, only a
 >few people and journalists appeared, and then he decided to
 >cancel the conference (he claims he doesn't speak for less than
 >500 people).

 >While moving in and out the venue, he was disturbed by about 100
 >people protesting in a political rally. He felt happy as he
 >thought they were there because of him and his cloning ideas,
 >but they they were not. The rally was because of another issue
 >involving transgenic food.

 >To summarize: his trip to Brazil was a total failure.


Can we assume that the large membership figures mentioned by the
media at vbarious times are the result of Raelian press releases
and not actual head counts?


Steve







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   May > May 6

                    Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

From: Stan Romanek
Date: Mon,  5 May 2003 12:50:25 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:56:27 -0400
Subject: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Thank you everyone for your interest in my case. It seems that
there are a lot of people out there that are more excepting then
I was, in regard, to this kind of thing. More so then I would
have guessed!

I wish I had a better grasp for what was happening, but for
whatever reason the answers seem to elude the investigators and
myself.

For those of you that think that the information has been held
back or kept a secret, there is not much to tell. It was the
investigators idea to wait until we had the facts before
springing it on the public.

The only problem is, things keep happening!

This has been very terrifying for my family and I, and with
worries of being thought of as crazy we have run into a lot of
very understanding people that have offered their support. I
thank you!

For the people that want more info, there is a person named Neil
Slade that has taken it upon him-self to put my stuff on his
website:

http://www.neilslade.com/UFOs.html

that would be the best place to go to keep track and it's going
to be a wild ride I think!!!!


Thanks,

Stan Romanek







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               'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of

From: James Fox <jamesfoxufodocs@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:23:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:00:59 -0400
Subject: 'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of


Hello Everyone,

Our previously Aired documentary, 'UFOs 50 Years of Denial' was
re-sold to Universal and will be broadcast on the SCI-FI Channel
in it's original format on May 6th, @ 8:00 PM.

Please forward this information to anyone interested in the
paranormal.

Many thanks,


James Fox
Executive Producer
www.outoftheblue.tv




=====
James Fox
P.O. Box 829
Bolinas, CA 94924
415.519.9631
jamesfoxufodocs@yahoo.com
www.outoftheblue.tv







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                     Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:44:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:07:23 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King


 >From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:41:34 +0100
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >>Subject: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >>Below is an update in reference to my attempts to review and
 >>analyze original footage of alleged UFOs taken by a Mr. Anthony
 >>Woods

<snip>

 >I understand that those at UFO magazine have given assurances
 >that the footage _will_ be provided to "experts" for analysis.
 >It remains to be seen _who_ is indeed given license to study the
 >first generation recordings in detail, although I'm encouraged
 >to see that they intend to seek "the expert opinion of people
 >who can help get to the truth".

It will interesting to find out 'which experts' get to view
orginal raw footage outside of UFO Mag.


 >Although purporting to be using Mexican investigator Mr.Santiago
 >Yturria _with exclusivity_ for the duration of his
 >involvement, I can reveal that, to the best of my knowledge,
 >Mr. Yturria was not the only investigator or group who was
 >involved with this case, and indeed Anthony Woods has presented
 >his footage for "exclusive" study to four organisations and two
 >websites of which I'm aware.

 >From what I know Anthony Woods and Santiago Yturria no longer
 >get along. Woods believes Yturria didn't handle his case
 >properly, thus he went to UFO Mag.

When Yturria posted here a couple weeks ago, he hadn't been
involved in the Woods case for 9 months. He should have known he
didn't have the rights to distrubute copies of Woods footage to
anyone on the List since it wasn't his property.

 >His longest investigative relationship, until now, appears to
 >have been with Mr. Yturria, who incidentally provided by far the
 >greatest public exposure for his material through "exclusives"
 >at Rense.com. One particular article claimed that military
 >helicopter activity appeared to be occurring in response to the
 >appearance of UFO. A cursory study of Mr. Wood's locality
 >revealed the relatively close proximity to Portsmouth Naval
 >Base. I zipped off an e-mail to Jeff Rense advising him of this
 >fact, as I felt it to be a reasonably relevant piece of
 >information. As far as I'm aware, this was not published on the
 >website.

 >In addition to the Woods footage, a woman hailing from the same
 >locality, namely that of Bedhampton, near Havant, has produced
 >voluminous and equally as noteworthy video "evidence" as Anthony
 >Woods. Nicknamed "Bambi", aka. Abby Parker, she also peddled her
 >videos around the houses, eventually ending up at Mr. Yturria's
 >door. Again, I have not been fortunate enough to have studied
 >the first generation tapes of her footage and so I'm unable to
 >make any firm claims as to its veracity.

Here we go again with "Bambi" AKA Abby Parker. Apparently she is
trying to reinvent herself after releasing a series of out of
focus images last year on Rense.com

I debunked her footage as out of focus and most likely Jupiter.
It was saddening to see that people can't tell when their video
camera is out of focus. It was a blatant example of UFOlogy
dumbed down to a level of not being able to tell when the camera
is in focus. I would be extremely cautious about any footage
coming out of that camp.

I don't know if it was her fault for not knowing how to run a
camera, or the UFOlogist fault of exploiting her and not
understanding the most basic things about cameras. She certainly
recieved alot of press for out of focus images.

As for Woods and if he has UFOs caught on tape. I'll patiently
wait until I either get copy of the original or view what UFO
mag puts out.

Then I can make the best study that can be done on his footage.
I think UFO mag is just protecting his interests or exploiting
them depending on your vantage point.


Tom King

www.ufovideo.com








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                          $$$s From UFO Claimants?

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:26:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:10:34 -0400
Subject: $$$s From UFO Claimants?


Could anyone advise if there is any instance in Ufology where a
UFO researcher/investigator had received any monies, gratuity or
professional fee from a UFO claimant(s) or persons reporting a
UFO experience?

The nature of my question is concerning whether or not the
monies would have been for investigative or similar services
during or after an investigation, and if there might be any
thought that such activity would present ethical issues?


Many thanks,

Kenny Young








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                         Re: UFO 'Detector' - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:58:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:12:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector' - Groff



 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:08:43 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector'

 >>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
 >>Subject: UFO 'Detector'

 ><snip>

 >>Not being strong in electronics I'm gonna go out on a limb and
 >>presume that there are a myriad of events that could set this
 >>thing off.

 >>http://www.ufo-detector.com/

 >Sure - anything that creates strong enough electromagnetic
 >disturbances would do that.  However, if the sensitivity is set
 >too low for most natural or man-made EM disturbances, and since
 >disturbances created by UFOs tend to be large, it may have some
 >merit.

You are absolutely correct. I suppose that background EM
frequencies could be "squelched".

I suppose there are some who would find the $100 price tag worth
it. Heck, I would probably buy one if I had the extra cash.

Didn't I read somewhere that there were instructions for turning
your old TV into a detector.


Terry Groff
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/








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                    Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:43:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:19:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate - Hebert


 >From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@attbi.com>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 18:37:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >>Subject: UFO Duck Hunting UpDate

 >This is most interesting research you are doing on the possible
 >IFO of video/movie footage.

<snip>

 >It would be a great service if you could make examples of these
 >various IFOs in their un"enhanced" and "enhanced" incarnations
 >both available on a web site. Really could save serious
 >researchers a lot lot of time. Maybe if you don't have the
 >requiste web skills someone with a site up and running would
 >volunteer to help you. (Hint hint).

 >Excellant work, Thanks


Dear Eric:

Thank you.

I already made examples of various IFO's, both enhanced and
unenhanced, in 2000-2001 and made them available in the IFO
Database I set up at:

http://ifo.s5.com.

I have made many web sites over the years and am now studying
Flash to build a new web site for my current research and
graphics I have created. What I don't have is the money to
afford the web space to post many of the MPEGs, AVI's, etc. I
would like to add to the IFO Database. Now that I have a digital
camcorder and DVD burner, I could make DVD's or VHS's to share
images of IFO's with those wanting to use this tool in their
work (not for profit). But the best way to learn more about
IFO's in photographs and in video images is to go out and
film/photograph these objects yourself (few people seem to make
the effort).

In the past, I could only post animations made from video stills
of IFO's to help illustrate the behaviors and distortions
inherent in images made from video and photographs of distant
objects in the sky. As you will notice, the IFO Database is
posted on one of those "freebie" sites and plagued by annoying
pop-up ads and sales promotions. This is because I cannot afford
a larger web site for the Database in addition to a web site for
my research - which is my main focus (the IFO Database is a very
time-consuming but necessary side-line of my research).

A few serious researchers have contacted me from time to time
asking help in identifying various photographic and video images
they are investigating. These are people more devoted to finding
the truth than proving UFOs exist - they know UFOs exist, they
just want to study the real ones.

Todd Lemire of Michigan UFOs is an excellent example of someone
who does his homework and knows how to conduct an investigation
see:

http://www.michiganufos.com/hamlinifo.html

If we are ever going to study the real UFOs, we must first
isolate the variables (sort the best evidence from the hoaxes
and misidentifications) before we can even begin to study this
phenomenon.

Investigations must first establish whether or not a UFO, as
opposed to an IFO, has been sighted and/or photographed/video
taped. Just stating so-and-so saw this or photographed that and
since no one knows what it is, it must be a UFO, is _not_ an
investigation. If you really want to know what UFOs are or are
not, you do not bias a study by perceiving and promoting only
information which parallels your belief systems (or sells books,
articles, videos, DVDs, etc.).

The term 'UFO' has many meanings to many people. Just because we
don't know what an image represents does not mean it should be
labeled and promoted as a UFO, or Unidentified Flying Object.
Now that analog and digital camcorders and cameras are becoming
more affordable and available around the world, UFO
organizations, investigators and researchers must conduct in-
depth investigations of alleged UFO images as well as witness
testimonies. The study of UFOs now goes beyond mere sighting
reports and investigations and must include a multidisciplinary
approach.

Through my own studies, I have found many people see something
they can't explain in the sky and run to grab their cameras or
camcorders to film it. When a witness spends more time viewing
the object(s) through a viewfinder or small side screen than
actually watching the object(s) in real time, there may be a
tendency to rely on the images that appear on video or in
photographs than what one actually saw with his or her own
eyes.When they play back the images they have captured,
video/photographic artifact, too much zoom (causing excessive
enlargement) and movement of both the object or objects and the
camera can cause all kinds of distortions which can make the
object appear "anomalous" - to the untrained eye.

In addition, what appears anomalous to the eye/mind can seem
even more anomalous when viewed on a monitor or in a photograph
due to distortions caused not only by video/photographic
artifact but also due to distortions in perception caused by the
will to believe. If we think we are watching a UFO in the sky
and video tape or photograph it because it looks strange,
resulting video or photographic images may only reinforce that
perception - that the object was a UFO - even when it was not.

Even if there are multiple witnesses, sometimes the mere
suggestion that the object(s) was a UFO can influence the
perceptions of all involved. And those who doubt the suggestion
that what was seen was a UFO may be further influenced by what
appears to be an image of an anomalous object that appears in
photographs or on video tape (especially when taken out of
context, enlarged and "enhanced" in photographs or video
stills).

To add to the confusion, there are hoaxers, disinformants (with
their own agendas), charlatans, fanatics and a whole assortment
of self-promoters and profit seekers who bombard our perceptions
daily with sensationalized images, titles, wording and claims.
Even an innocent misidentification can become a "Major UFO
Sighting!!" because of the will to believe and the potential for
profit or fame.

Caught in the middle are UFO investigators and researchers, many
of whom have never even studied the difference between the image
of a distant bird on video/in photographs as compared to
video/photographic images of insects, lens flare, debris, spider
silk or conventional aircraft. I've often considered sending
video and photographic images of various IFO's to researchers
and investigators just to see if they could accurately identify
each image. But my greatest wish is to receive a dollar for
every photograph and video/video still of birds, bugs, debris,
lens flare, spider silk and conventional aircraft passed off as
UFOs in magazines, documentaries, TV programs, at UFO
conventions and on the internet. I'd be rich by now. ;>

So, not only is it important to thoroughly interview and
investigate alleged UFO witnesses, it is imperative that UFO
investigators and researchers maintain a working knowledge of
video and photographic equipment and resulting images, the
psychology of human behavior, and, above all, a deep self-
awareness to keep personal bias from influencing our perceptions
of the truth.


A. Hebert








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                     Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:58:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:22:59 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Sanchez-Ocejo


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:10:43 -0300
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?

 >>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:12:08 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?

<snip>

 >Dear Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo.

 >Is there any chance that you may know what is Castro's thoughts
 >on UFOs and extraterrestrial life? I wonder if he, as a world
 >leader (despite being a dictator), would have information on the
 >subject, as I believe that most people in his position would.
 >And if so, has he ever expressed publicly or privately what is
 >his views about it?

 >Also, I remember that when we met in Bras=EDlia, 1983, you gave me
 >a signed copy of your book UFOs From Undersea, for which I thank
 >you again. It covers the very interesting Filiberto Cardena's
 >case. I was wondering if has this case any new development or
 >have you any new info about the "people" that visited the man?

 >The reason I ask is because most Brazilian cases of direct
 >encounters with aliens in late the 70s and early 80s have an on-
 > going situation. Several people taken from 1978 to 1983, or so,
 >have been abducted some other times than the first one. Antonio
 >Carlos Ferreira, for instance, was abducted over than 20 times
 >until the late 80s. Most of his abductions were closely
 >monitiored by researchers and doctors.

 >Thanks for any help!



Dear A. J.,

About your question: Castro's thoughts on UFOs and
extraterrestrial life?. You are in better position asking the
Cuban Embassy in Brasilia, that me in the US.

The book UFO Contact from Undersea has been out of print long
time ago. We have a CD-Book with his and other rare abduction
cases we investigated with the late J. Allen Hynek. Send me a
private e-mail for information.

Yes, we find out that Cardenas has encounters, not only after
his abduction on January 3, 1979 but since his childhood. After
being the center of ugly jokes in the Spanish radio like: "he
was smoking a big Havana marijuana cigar" and even a Cha Cha
record named "El Platillo Volador" (The Flying Saucer) by
skeptics, his family decide to moved to New York and stop
contact with ufologists.


Regards,

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center






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               Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -

From: Robert Frola <ufologist@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:12:53 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:38:59 -0400
Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies -


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:16:14 -0300
 >Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >>From: Robert Frola <ufologist@hypermax.net.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:46:01 +1000
 >>Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:14:28 -0300
 >>>Subject: Re: The Manipulation Of UK Ufological Studies

 ><snip>

 >>I have to agree and disagree with Ademar. I have published the
 >>Australasian Ufologist Magazine now for seven years. It is a
 >>subscriber and news-stand publication and is Australia's and New
 >>Zealands only UFO, Paranormal and the Unexplained magazine.

 >>It is a magazine dedicated to UFO Research by UFO Researchers,
 >>and I try to combine both research and commercial
 >>considerations, a combination which I think works very well. The
 >>Australasian Ufologist Magazine has been around as long as
 >>Graham's UFO Magazine. The only difference is the approach we
 >>have to how the magazine is marketed. Anyone who has seen both
 >>magazines can speak on my behalf.

 >>Many say you can't survive out there without being heavily
 >>commercialized? I disagree. We survive on little, if no paid
 >>advertising, relying on book and video sales and the strength
 >>of the articles placed within its covers.

 >>Does it work? We are still here and sales are improving. It
 >>may not be a highly polished glossy magazine like Grahams or
 >>Ademar but we do spread the message, the very and important
 >>message of the alien presence here on Planet Earth.

 >Hi Robert.

 >Thanks for the comments. I believe, however, that maybe I
 >haven=B4t expressed myself correctly. I totally disagree with the
 >idea of "you can't survive out there without being heavily
 >commercialize", that you mention, and with which you disagree.
 >The problem here is the word "heavily". I never implied that in
 >my message. Only that you have to get both commercial and
 >ufological considerations, in a balanced way. And while useing
 >commercial considerations, never let it get bigger than the real
 >UFO message.
 >
 >I receive from time to time your Australasian Ufologist
 >Magazine, which I certainly appreciate. Indeed. My UFO magazine
 >is not even close to Graham=B4s. We are only 52 pages, much like
 >yours. Graham=B4s last editions have gone far away 120 pages. I
 >can only imagine the work you have to put in it to make a
 >magazine like that. My magazine is a very simple one. I work as
 >reporter, editor, artist, graphic designer etc by myself. In
 >golden days I had 12 people working in my staff, which is now
 >reduced to 4, including me...
 >
 >We don=B4t carry any advertisement pages, which would help to pay
 >the bills. But it is not because we don=B4t want, but because most
 >business don=B4t want to have their names and products involved
 >with UFOs. I guess that you have the same problem in Asutralia
 >and New Zealand. Here in Brazil we still face lots of problems
 >in trying to get a serious discussion about UFOs going.
 >
 >To run a UFO magazine isn=B4t a profitable activity. Far from it.
 >These days I can barely live from it and have to work at least
 >14-16 hours a day. Many people have tried to launch magazines in
 >this field in Brazil and they all failed, because there is no
 >money in this thing. My magazine is alive thanks to a real
 >devotion that I apply to it. If I use the same energy, time and
 >talent I apply to the magazine in any other activity, I would
 >probably be rich after 20 years. But certainly I wouldn=B4t be
 >nearly as happy as I am.


Hi Ademar,

Good to hear from you.

You hit the nail on the head.

People think that just because you have a magazine, you are
automatically making a lot of money.

Reality check!

Like you I have a 9 to 5 job, and I do the magazine in my spare
time. I started off with a staff of one - me. Now after seven
years I have two staff members, Diane Harrison and I. So I
understand you completely. And I am not rich, only in the
spiritual sense. But I continue to publish the magazine and,
like youself, it is a passion that goes beyond logic.

I started researching and investigating UFOs. Participated in
UFO Group Committees. Eventually starting this magazine. It
seems that we both have travelled identical paths.

Good to hear that our little publication reaches Brazil. Bob
Girard of Arcturus Books Inc in Florida, USA is a very good
friend and supporter. If it wasn't for Bob, you or others
outside Australia wouldn't have heard of the Australaslian
Ufologist Magazine. I get little if no feedback from anyone
overseas, and looking at some of those letters in 'Letters to
the Editor' sections of some of these UFO Magazines, I am
convinced that a good majority of them are made up by the editor
or his staff to fill in space.

Keep up the excellent work you are doing. You have my support
and understanding.


Cheers

Robert Frola







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                          Secrecy News -- 05/06/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:19:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:45:39 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/06/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 38
May 6, 2003


**      INTELLIGENCE BUDGET SECRECY CHALLENGED
**      SENATE RELEASES MCCARTHY TRANSCRIPTS
**      MORE ON NSA FOIA EXEMPTION
**      GITMO KIDS


INTELLIGENCE BUDGET SECRECY CHALLENGED

The total amount of intelligence spending for 2002 should be
declassified over the objections of the Central Intelligence
Agency, a federal court was told May 5 in a Freedom of
Information Act lawsuit sponsored by the Federation of American
Scientists.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/index.html

The question of whether or not to publish the intelligence
budget total is an archetypal controversy in government secrecy
policy that has persisted for decades.  Annual budget disclosure
used to be a valued goal of the intelligence oversight
committees in Congress, and the budget total actually was
released in response to previous litigation in 1997 and 1998.

But the latest lawsuit still manages to say something new on the
subject, beginning with the observation that the Department of
Energy (DOE), which forms part of the U.S. intelligence
community, has an unclassified budget for intelligence spending.

"DOE routinely does what Director of Central Intelligence George
J. Tenet said is not done, could not be done and should not be
done:  It publishes and describes the purposes of its annual
agency-level appropriation for intelligence," according to the
newly filed FAS motion for summary judgment:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/cross.html

Bryan Siebert, the former Director of the DOE Office of Nuclear
and National Security Information, stated in a sworn declaration
that "the fact that the DOE intelligence budget figure is
unclassified has not impeded the conduct of classified DOE
intelligence programs or led to their exposure."  It stands to
reason, he affirmed, that the same thing must be true of the
larger and less programmatically coherent government-wide
figure.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/siebert.html

John Pike of GlobalSecurity.org, who authored a 1996 analysis of
intelligence spending that was cited by DCI Tenet earlier in the
case, provided a declaration to rebut the notion that disclosure
of the overall budget figure could threaten national security.

Mr. Pike noted that the budget total was itself the sum of three
independently generated budget aggregations (NFIP, JMIP, and
TIARA), each of which is the outcome of numerous individual
administrative decisions that could not be replicated from afar.
  "It is not possible to 'reverse engineer' the budget total in
order to derive information about its specific component parts."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/pike.html

In my own declaration, I pointed to CIA's continued
classification of intelligence budget totals from 1947 and 1948
as evidence of bad faith on the part of the Agency.

"There is no plausible national security construct that both
permits declassification of the 1997 and 1998 budget totals and
prohibits declassification of the 1947 and 1948 budget totals.
It is evident that CIA is improperly withholding total budget
data for reasons other than national security and the protection
of intelligence sources and methods."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/aftergood.html

Last month, CIA asked the court's permission to provide a
classified declaration from DCI Tenet for the court's in camera
review, to supplement the DCI's 28 page unclassified declaration
that was filed on April 4.

We opposed that request, contending that "DCI Tenet has
squandered his credibility on this subject by asserting material
false statements under oath, by presenting evidence in a
tendentious and misleading manner, and by other acts of bad
faith."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/noclass.html

A reply from CIA is due on June 6.  The case, Steven Aftergood
v. Central Intelligence Agency, is pending before the Honorable
Ricardo M. Urbina in D.C. District Court.


SENATE RELEASES MCCARTHY TRANSCRIPTS

Sealed transcripts of closed hearings that were held before
Senator Joseph R. McCarthy's subcommittee on investigations in
1953 were released by the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee
on May 5.

The hearings, which investigated allegations of Communist
espionage and subversion, became notorious for their hostile
interrogations and abuse of process, culminating in the censure
of Senator McCarthy by the Senate in 1954.

"History is a powerful teacher, and these documents offer many
lessons on the importance of open government, due process and
respect for individual rights," said Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI),
former chairman, now ranking member, of the Governmental Affairs
Committee.  "Democracy means people have a right to express
peaceful dissent from the prevailing view of the government, and
the government is obligated to permit and defend that right."

A press release announcing the publication of the hearing
transcripts, with a link to the voluminous documents themselves,
may be found here:

http://govt-aff.senate.gov/050503presspsi.htm

The transcripts naturally need to be read judiciously, as when
one Paul Crouch tells Senator McCarthy that there is "no
[doubt], none whatever" that J. Robert Oppenheimer was a member
of the Communist party (in volume 3).  Amid doubts about his own
credibility, Mr. Crouch was not asked to testify at
Oppenheimer's security hearing the following year, though his
allegations formed part of the investigative background of the
case.


MORE ON NSA FOIA EXEMPTION

A proposed exemption from the Freedom of Information Act for
"operational files" of the National Security Agency could
preclude public access to a host of valuable historical
documents such as the VENONA intercepts of Soviet communications
that were released with huge fanfare several years ago.

The proposal is included in a draft of the 2004 Defense
Authorization Act that is before the Senate Armed Services
Committee this week.

The National Security Archive has assembled a collection of
related materials, including a detailed critique of the pending
proposal by the Archive's General Counsel, Meredith Fuchs, which
is available here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20030505/


GITMO KIDS

Following reports that there are several juveniles and elderly
persons among the hundreds of suspected Taliban and Al Qa'ida
detainees being held at the U.S. military base in Guantanamo
Bay, Cuba, government officials said that a dozen or more
prisoners may be released shortly.

U.S. News and World Report this week described a letter from
Secretary of State Colin Powell to Defense Secretary Donald
Rumsfeld complaining that the Guantanamo detainees include "one
13-year-old, one 14-year-old, two 15-year-olds, one 16-year-old,
an 88-year-old, and a 98-year-old."

See "Terror's cellblock" by Bruce B. Auster and Kevin Whitelaw
in U.S. News, May 12:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030512/usnews/12gitmo.htm

The matter was viewed with disgust by Jonathan Turley in
"Appetite for Authoritarianism Spawns an American Gulag," Los
Angeles Times, May 2:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-turley2may02,1,5963846.story

"The goal is to reach a final determination on all the people
who are down there," said State Department spokesman Richard
Boucher on May 5.



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:49:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:57:51 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >Those things are very interesting, but they're hardly proof of a
 >grand conspiracy. It's just not enough to hold up in the eyes of
 >objective criticism.

 >I need a bit more to believe, and I don't think I'm being
 >unreasonable to ask for such.


How about the physical evidence on the bodies of abductees
then?


Eleanor White







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   May > May 6

             Re: 'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:04:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:54:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of


 >From: James Fox <jamesfoxufodocs@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:23:55 -0400
 >Subject: 'Directors Cut' Broadcast Of 'UFOs 50 Years of Denial' On SCI-FI

 >Hello Everyone,

 >Our previously Aired documentary, 'UFOs 50 Years of Denial' was
 >re-sold to Universal and will be broadcast on the SCI-FI Channel
 >in it's original format on May 6th, @ 8:00 PM.

 >Please forward this information to anyone interested in the
 >paranormal.

 >Many thanks,

 >James Fox
 >Executive Producer
 >www.outoftheblue.tv


Congratulations, James. Look forward to it.

News pending.

Later,

Steve Bassett






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                     Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:06:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:58:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gevaerd


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:44:11 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine

 >>To summarize: his trip to Brazil was a total failure.

 >Can we assume that the large membership figures mentioned by the
 >media at various times are the result of Raelian press releases
 >and not actual head counts?



I would say so, Steven. In Brazil, at least, Rael hasn't more
than a 100 people or so.

A. J.






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                     Re: $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:22:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:00:18 -0400
Subject: Re: $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Hall


 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:26:32 -0400
 >Subject: $$$s From UFO Claimants?

 >Could anyone advise if there is any instance in Ufology where a
 >UFO researcher/investigator had received any monies, gratuity or
 >professional fee from a UFO claimant(s) or persons reporting a
 >UFO experience?

 >The nature of my question is concerning whether or not the
 >monies would have been for investigative or similar services
 >during or after an investigation, and if there might be any
 >thought that such activity would present ethical issues?


Kenny,

It certainly would pose ethical issues unless the person was a
professional, "for-hire" investigator or was offering to apply
some sort of costly scientific equipment, and would only give
"ufology" a further bad name. Given the sleaze factor and
unscrupulous people in this field, though, I would bet that it
has happened.


  - Dick







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                    Re: $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:53:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:08:51 -0400
Subject: Re: $$$s From UFO Claimants? - Gates


 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:26:32 -0400
 >Subject: $$$s From UFO Claimants?

 >Could anyone advise if there is any instance in Ufology where a
 >UFO researcher/investigator had received any monies, gratuity or
 >professional fee from a UFO claimant(s) or persons
 >reporting a UFO experience?

 >The nature of my question is concerning whether or not the
 >monies would have been for investigative or similar services
 >during or after an investigation, and if there might be any
 >thought that such activity would present ethical issues?

Hi Kenny,

I seem to recall some stories which claimed that some abduction
researchers were getting cash from abductee's.


Cheers,

Robert







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                          Analysis Of N.M. Samples

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:59:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:17:35 -0400
Subject: Analysis Of N.M. Samples


I want to thanks Ed Gehrman for his good spirit of cooperation
and enquiry, in quickly sending me photos of the area in New
Mexico where samples were taken and in providing two nice-sized
samples of the material referred to, below:

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:43:36 -0700
 >>Subject: Cameraman's Crash Site

 >>EBK, Listers,

 >>Last July, while on a visit to New Mexico, I located the
 >>cameraman's crash site; and it's just where he said it would be.
 >>It took my brother and I about four hours of searching. We used
 >>topographical maps and the cameraman's directions and
 >>descriptions.

 >>My brother and I have been exploring the New Mexico desert since
 >>we were teens. He still lives in Albuquerque; I lived there on
 >>and off from 1957 to 1965, and attended UNM, and taught in
 >>Albuquerque for a year. We are very familiar with the terrain.

<snip>

 >>The cameraman was correct when he stated that the site had been
 >>very hot. The two cliff faces the craft impacted are covered
 >>with a strange glass-like material and there are bits and pieces
 >>of this material covering an area as large as three football
 >>fields.

<snip>

 >>Some glass-like
 >>samples are being examined by physicists in Michigan but so far
 >>no results. I have five excellent samples of the glass-like
 >>material and would like to offer these samples to the list for
 >>examination.

Report Of Examination Of The Two Samples:

To Ed Gherman:

The large, beautiful samples arrived yesterday and have now been
carefully examined with results that I hope will not cause you
to want to 'shoot the messenger'. You were quite correct in
describing the material as "glass-like" (in appearance), but the
resemblance is superficial and that is where it ends. The
material has been carefully examined under the very high quality
Bausch & Lomb binocular microscope I use in studying meteorite
thin sections, tektite glass, minerals, and micro-fossils, and
it is definitely not a glass or silicate melt of any kind.
Instead it is a water-deposited microcrystalline coating
(accumulative growth of botryoidal and sub-botryoidal type) of
silica dioxide that had accumulated within and upon fissures in
the parent rock. It is, in fact, chalcedony or agate, but
definitely not glass, and it forms in relatively cool
temperatures, NOT under great heat. The hardness is 7 on Mohs'
scale. The specific gravity of the material is about 2.6.

You mention physicists in Michigan, but unless they have been
involved in mineralogy, petrology, or the related field of
meteoritics (the study of meteorites), there is little in the
background of most physicists that should prepare such a person
to analyze this material, excepting to notice that the material
(under high magnification) refracts light as crystal instead of
as glass.

In short, there is absolutely nothing that I could find in the
samples that suggest the material was subjected to temperatures
of a type that would melt the parent rock, and much to indicate
otherwise. You see, also, if the chalcedony had, itself, been
melted, it would not still posses the microcrystalline structure
which it so clearly displays, ubiquitously, under the
microscope.

As to the area shown in the photo that you suggest might have
been the impact area, it looks more like the remains of an
abandoned, small-scale mining operation.

If the material had turned out to be vitrified rock (rock heated
until it had turned to glass), I was thinking about heading out
to New Mexico to have a closer look, but in the absence of
vitrified rock, and in the seeming absence of any other
evidence, such a trip is unwarranted. I do not think the broken
and burned tree shown in one of the photos should be taken as
evidence of a UFO crash.

I certainly wish to thank Ed Gehrman for his generous and fair-
minded offer and provision of the photos and material samples
for examination, and for in that way, his helping us to learn
that we must look into other things or at other places for
evidence of a crash of a UFO.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery





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              Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:26:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:30:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - White


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Stan Romanek
 >Date: Mon,  5 May 2003 12:50:25 +0000 (GMT)
 >Subject: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

 >[Non-Subscriber Post]

<snip>

 >The only problem is, things keep happening!

<snip>

 >that would be the best place to go to keep track and it's going
 >to be a wild ride I think!!!!

Do any Listers think this would be a good time and place for
installing an environmental monitor of some sort, the UFO
detector, or the PC-monitored type?  Or possibly one of the 10-
12 hour video recorders located remotely from Mr. Romanek's
home?


Eleanor White








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                     They're Out There... In The Suburbs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:03:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:03:50 -0400
Subject: They're Out There... In The Suburbs



Source: The Northern Territory News - Australia

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6389132%255E13569,00.html


They're Out There... In The Suburbs
By Rajiv Maharaj

May 06, 2003

Beachside residents thought they were being invaded by aliens
when a set of mysterious bright lights appeared in the night
sky.

"People were out on the road, pointing to the bright lights and
yelling it was an alien invasion," mother of three Yvonne Morris
said.

"People were just stunned."

The Northern Territory News was flooded with calls from people
who all say they saw the same thing from their Nightcliff homes
- eight bright yellowish-orange lights in perfect formation
over the Timor Sea.

Brad McDonald, 48, was at the Nightcliff Jetty fishing with
family and friends when he saw the lights on Saturday about 9pm.

"I've never seen anything like it - it was bloody strange," Mr
McDonald said.

But he said he had a strange feeling before he saw the glowing
lights.

"I thought it was odd before that because the fish were biting
like hell, and then all of a sudden the tide went out."

He described the lights as bright orange-yellow about 1km away,
and in perfect formation.

"My mate reckons they were weather balloons, but I disagree -
they were too perfect.

"There were 40 people at the jetty and we were all intrigued,"
he said.

Ms Morris and her children were sitting on the verandah of their
beachfront property when the orange-yellow lights first
appeared.

"The eight lights were about 45 degrees from each other, and
appeared to be fairly structured."

UFO sightings are fairly common in the NT - no place more so
than Wycliffe Well, 1100km south of Darwin, where Holiday Park
owner Lew Farkas is the local expert on UFOs, having seen them
with monotonous regularity over 18 years.

"The closest look I got of one was the spaceship's portholes,
but I couldn't see the alien bloke inside," Mr Farkas, 54, said
last night.

He said the formation described by the Nightcliff residents was
similar to ones he had seen.

"It sounds like it was one mothership, with the other supporting
craft on the side," he said.

Weather bureau senior forecaster Pradeep Singh said the bureau
did not see anything unusual on its radar.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:10:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:03:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:57:51 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 ><snip>

 >>Those things are very interesting, but they're hardly proof of a
 >>grand conspiracy. It's just not enough to hold up in the eyes of
 >>objective criticism.

 >>I need a bit more to believe, and I don't think I'm being
 >>unreasonable to ask for such.

 >How about the physical evidence on the bodies of abductees
 >then?


I guess I'm just not swayed that easily. I don't feel that scars
and scoop marks are evidence enough to support the rather large
claim that aliens are here and abducting people by the
thousands. Many abductees report no scars or physical marks at
all. Some have removed implants, but none have yet been proven
to be extraterrestrial. There are simply too many other possible
ways someone could obtain, say, a scar, for me to immediate
conclude, Well, it must be aliens.

You have to understand that I am coming to this field in the
role of the layman. And the layman is not easily convinced.
That's not the layman's fault. Some people need only another
person's word to believe something, and I applaud that kind of
faith and trust. But most people need hard facts and hard
evidence to believe something to be true. Especially in a field
where there are so many people actively performing hoaxes. There
is a lot of interesting data regarding alien abduction - no one
is arguing that - but it's hardly conclusive.

Alien abduction is a tricky subject to discuss - as those
listening this past Saturday no doubt heard. It's almost like
discussing religion, because those who claim abductions are so
passionate about their experience that to challenge it is almost
like challenging their personal faith. They believe these things
have happened and who am I to tell them otherwise. I do not
pretend to know whether or not alien abduction is real. As an
investigator and researcher, I have to consider every option,
both mundane and extraordinary, and for me, to immediately
accept the extraordinary is putting the cart far, far ahead of
the horse.

Am I really so pigheaded simply because I require hard facts and
evidence? Prominent abduction cases like Whitley Strieber's and
the Linda Cortile fiasco are supposedly a couple of our best
arguments for the case of alien abduction, and they're both so
full of holes and controversy that I think it should come as no
surprise that the validity of the phenomena remains in question.

I would like to honestly know, are my statements really that
unreasonable? I respect that in such a specialized field as
Ufology that many people involved are believers on one level or
another. Someone might not believe in alien abduction but they
believe in Roswell. Someone might not believe in Roswell but
they believe in MJ-12. I knew that going into this. But am I
wrong to feel skeptical on this subject? Is it possible for
someone to be interested in this field and maintain a skeptical
attitude?

"I Want to Believe" is a dangerous misnomer, implying that
someone's desire to believe in something will cloud their
judgment. I don't "want" to believe, but I am prepared to
believe if shown enough hard facts and evidence. Then and only
then.

Back on the subject of alien abduction: yes, something is
clearly going on. At this time I'm simply not prepared to
conclude that it's aliens. The evidence to date is not enough to
convince me. It's not enough to convince the masses, either,
because if it was, there would be no argument on the subject. It
would be irrefutable fact: aliens are abducting us, what are we
going to do about it? But it's not irrefutable fact. Not yet,
anyway.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Right now
we have a lot of one and not so much of the other.

Ian Rogers






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                    Re: Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:14:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:15:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Rogers


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:59:30 -0400
 >Subject: Analysis Of N.M. Samples

 >I want to thanks Ed Gehrman for his good spirit of cooperation
 >and enquiry, in quickly sending me photos of the area in New
 >Mexico where samples were taken and in providing two nice-sized
 >samples of the material referred to, below:

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:43:36 -0700
 >>>Subject: Cameraman's Crash Site

<snip>

 >Report Of Examination Of The Two Samples:

 >To Ed Gherman:

 >The large, beautiful samples arrived yesterday and have now been
 >carefully examined with results that I hope will not cause you
 >to want to 'shoot the messenger'. You were quite correct in
 >describing the material as "glass-like" (in appearance), but the
 >resemblance is superficial and that is where it ends. The
 >material has been carefully examined under the very high quality
 >Bausch & Lomb binocular microscope I use in studying meteorite
 >thin sections, tektite glass, minerals, and micro-fossils, and
 >it is definitely not a glass or silicate melt of any kind.
 >Instead it is a water-deposited microcrystalline coating
 >(accumulative growth of botryoidal and sub-botryoidal type) of
 >silica dioxide that had accumulated within and upon fissures in
 >the parent rock. It is, in fact, chalcedony or agate, but
 >definitely not glass, and it forms in relatively cool
 >temperatures, NOT under great heat. The hardness is 7 on Mohs'
 >scale. The specific gravity of the material is about 2.6.

 >You mention physicists in Michigan, but unless they have been
 >involved in mineralogy, petrology, or the related field of
 >meteoritics (the study of meteorites), there is little in the
 >background of most physicists that should prepare such a person
 >to analyze this material, excepting to notice that the material
 >(under high magnification) refracts light as crystal instead of
 >as glass.

 >In short, there is absolutely nothing that I could find in the
 >samples that suggest the material was subjected to temperatures
 >of a type that would melt the parent rock, and much to indicate
 >otherwise. You see, also, if the chalcedony had, itself, been
 >melted, it would not still posses the microcrystalline structure
 >which it so clearly displays, ubiquitously, under the
 >microscope.

 >As to the area shown in the photo that you suggest might have
 >been the impact area, it looks more like the remains of an
 >abandoned, small-scale mining operation.

 >If the material had turned out to be vitrified rock (rock heated
 >until it had turned to glass), I was thinking about heading out
 >to New Mexico to have a closer look, but in the absence of
 >vitrified rock, and in the seeming absence of any other
 >evidence, such a trip is unwarranted. I do not think the broken
 >and burned tree shown in one of the photos should be taken as
 >evidence of a UFO crash.

 >I certainly wish to thank Ed Gehrman for his generous and fair-
 >minded offer and provision of the photos and material samples
 >for examination, and for in that way, his helping us to learn
 >that we must look into other things or at other places for
 >evidence of a crash of a UFO.


Holy cow, Ray! This is very impressive work. The kind that keeps
me in this field. Very professional and complete.

You have amazed me, sir.

Ian Rogers








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                      Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:06:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:59:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine - Gates


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:44:11 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine


 >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:21:26 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Rael In UFO Magazine

<snip>

 >>To summarize: his trip to Brazil was a total failure.

 >Can we assume that the large membership figures mentioned by the
 >media at vbarious times are the result of Raelian press
 >releases and not actual head counts?

So if the clone has two heads, does that count as two or one?
Enquiring minds want to know.....   :)

Cheers,

Robert








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                    Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:23:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:26:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Yturria


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:44:14 +0000
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:41:34 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >>>Subject: UFO Duck Hunting Update


 >>From what I know Anthony Woods and Santiago Yturria no longer
 >>get along. Woods believes Yturria didn't handle his case
 >>properly, thus he went to UFO Mag.

This quotation does not come from Mr. Dan Bright or Amy Hebert
but is an invention by you Mr. Tom King. I ask the List to
review both Amy Hebert and Dan Bright messages posted here to
confirm none of them said these words.

So where did you get these words? Or it's just a personal guess
from you. For 12 months I have been involved in deep research of
this case and I have gathered miles and miles of personal and
confidential conversations with the witness. I have gathered
scores of UFO footage, testimonials, statements and supporting
letters to my work from him. I have published a vast amount of
reports all over the Internet and presented this case in several
conferences in the US and here in Mexico.

I have known a lot of situations and delicate affairs that
remain in the case's dossier. And I'm still supporting this case
and sustaining my allegations. Don't you sincerely think, Mr.
King, that if the witness had not felt satisfied and identified
with me and my research work he could have ended his
relationship with me within a month? 12 months is a long time
of relationship.

It's clear that your quotation is very personal and more
oriented to other considerations not to the escence of the case
itself. I will suggest you that instead of inventing quotations
you express your personal feelings and thoughts directly so we
can understand each other in a better way. Play fair.

 >When Yturria posted here a couple weeks ago, he hadn't been
 >involved in the Woods case for 9 months. He should have known he
 >didn't have the rights to distrubute copies of Woods footage to
 >anyone on the List since it wasn't his property.

First it was not 9 months but 7 months. My offer was sincere and
my interest compromised to establish the truth. But the witness
said NO and it's his footage so I have to respect his desires.
At the same time Graham Birdsall and the UFO Magazine had come
with the idea to produce a documentary about this case and I
think it's a great idea. I know personally Graham and I've been
honored by him to attend the Leeds Conferences twice and have
received always a warm affection from him. So I respect him and
support this new documentary to come. I'm convinced that the
british audiences will now know all about this case and will
find it extraordinary.

 >>In addition to the Woods footage, a woman hailing from the same
 >>locality, namely that of Bedhampton, near Havant, has produced
 >>voluminous and equally as noteworthy video "evidence" as Anthony
 >>Woods. Nicknamed "Bambi", aka. Abby Parker, she also peddled her
 >>videos around the houses, eventually ending up at Mr. Yturria's
 >>door. Again, I have not been fortunate enough to have studied
 >>the first generation tapes of her footage and so I'm unable to
 >>make any firm claims as to its veracity.

 >Here we go again with "Bambi" AKA Abby Parker. Apparently she is
 >trying to reinvent herself after releasing a series of out of
 >focus images last year on Rense.com

In September of 2002 I concluded my research on the Woods case
and moved forward to work with Abby Parker also from Bedhampton
as she contacted me some months before. There are also two more
witness from that place and one of them is a good friend of
Abby. Needless to say that this new involvement was not well
received by some british researchers and groups for obvious
reasons.

Why a Mexican researcher was researching major UFO cases from
Bedhampton in their own backyard. This reaction was expected by
me and has logic. I understand their feelings for not being
taken in count but the witnesses contacted me and asked my
contribution. They wanted and advisor but more than that a
confident to try to understand the unusual events in wich they
were involved. I'm sorry that this research upset some collagues
but that's the way it is and I just can't ignore or reject the
legitimate desires of a UFO witness to be heard and adviced.
Besides Ufology have always asked to the UFO witnesses to come
forward telling their stories and sharing their evidence.

Abby Parker noticed since the first time that I was not
interested mainly in her footage but in her spiritual and
emotional feelings and experiences. As I always have said : UFO
videos are not the most important thing from an experiencer.
They are just memories to the experiencer of unusual and amazing
encounters lived. The real important element is the experiencer
and the experience itself. A great deal to learn.

There is a lot of new evidence and testimonials from Miss
Parker since that video that you are mentioning posted at
Rense.com last year (not by me). If you review two new reports I
published in October last year and March 2003 in Rense.com and
UFO Folklore you will find out more recent information from Abby
Parker's case.

http://www.rense.com/general30/havant.htm

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a2003/mar/abbyparkerufo.htm

I've been a UFO researcher since 1974 and for many years I have
been involved in spectacular cases from witnesses experiencing
the most unique and insolit events most of them from Mexico
where everyone knows we have been living a complete ufomania for
more than a decade. So belive me I'm an old sailor in these
waters and if you think I'm easy to be cheated by someone
selling me a UFO tale or a UFO footage you're very wrong. Your
words have been very negative and without even seeing all the
evidence of this major case you sound more like a skeptic wich
I know you aren't. So please just wait to see all the evidence
and new developments on this case in which I'm working and then
you can give me your second opinion, just open your mind. I can
assure this: You have not seen anything yet.


Sincerely,

Santiago Yturria






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                     McMinnville's UFO Festival Features

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:10:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:10:50 -0400
Subject: McMinnville's UFO Festival Features



Source: News-Register - McMinnville, Oregon

http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=165814

McMinnville's UFO Festival Features Many Activities

Published: May 6, 2003

By Starla Pointer Of the News-Register

Now in its fourth year, McMinnville's UFO Festival and Alien
Daze brings visitors from far and wide.

OK, not from other planets - well, MAYBE not - but definitely
from other cities and states, and from all over Yamhill County.

Last year, a woman drove all the way down from Seattle for the
chance to parade down Third Street attired from head to toe in
aluminum foil and purple Lycra. When her spaceship departed for
the return trip, she was carrying the "UFO Queen" award.

"We get a great mix of true believers and people who just want
to have a good time," said Amber Lindsey, public relations
person for McMenamins Hotel Oregon.

McMenamins and the McMinnville Downtown Association are
sponsoring the out-of-this world activities Thursday through
Saturday.

"We started with one afternoon and it's grown and grown,"
Lindsey said, noting the hotel's rooms are booked solid for the
event.

This year, the festival will feature internationally known
speakers, an essay contest, a UFO-related marketplace and an
alien abduction workshop. One of Lindsey's favorite parts of the
weekend is the alien parade, which was added last year.

"That's quite possibly the most fun for me," she said, recalling
floats shaped like flying saucers, miles and miles of foil,
people dressed as everything from Roswell-style aliens to
Klingons.

McMenamins historian Tim Hill came up with the UFO festival idea
after reading about the Trent case.

In 1950, Paul and Evelyn Trent shot photos of a flying disc
hovering in the sky above in their yard between McMinnville and
Sheridan. When they were published in the Telephone Register, a
forerunner of the News-Register, the paper received requests for
copies from UFO enthusiasts all over the world.

While this weekend's celebration will attract many fun-seekers,
Lindsey also expects a number of people with a serious interest
in UFOs. The turnout should be especially good this year because
of the keynote speakers: Stanton Friedman, UFO scholar and
nuclear physicist, and Peter Robbins, an authority on British
UFO and crop circle incidents.

McMenamins partner in the festival, Randy Harrigan of
ufostore.com, suggested bringing in Friedman for the event. The
Sci-Fi Channel helped arrange Robbins' visit.

UFO authorities

Friedman will give an illustrated lecture titled, "Critiquing
the Roswell Critics." In it, he will take on the arguments
against the reality of the Roswell, N.M., incident.

He also will discuss the feasibility of travel to Earth from
other nearby solar systems, government cover-ups, character
assassination, misrepresentation, government disinformation and
academic malfeasance.

Robbins, columnist for UFO Magazine and editor of the website
UFOcity.com, will discuss the RAF Bentwaters/ Rendlesham Forest
UFO incident. Bentwaters/Rendlesham is considered England's
equivalent to Roswell - the best documented and most significant
series of UFO events in the history of the United Kingdom.

Both men will speak Friday during a speakers' panel that starts
at 6:30 p.m. in the Mack Theater. In addition, Oregon UFO
Research will make a presentation about UFO activity in the
state.

Admission is $7 per person. Reservations, which are required,
may be made by calling 503-560-7425. Any extra seats will be
available starting at 7:30 p.m. at the theater.

The UFO authorities also will drop by the Hotel Oregon for a
book-signing and meet-the-public event at 9:30 Friday night.
Admission is free.

Friedman also will talk about flying saucer sightings at a 7
o'clock dinner Thursday night in the hotel.

Cost for the four-course dinner, for those 21 and older, is $55
per person. Call 503-472-8427 for reservations.

McMenamins will serve a special brew that night and all during
the festival: Alienator Ale.

Alien activities

Other events at the hotel include:

n The UFO marketplace, which will be open from 4 to 9 p.m.
Friday and 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. Saturday in the ballroom on the
second floor. UFO art, literature and information will be
offered.

n Budd Hopkins' alien abduction workshop from 9 to 11 a.m.
Saturday. It's open to the public as well as to abductees and
medical and mental health professionals.

n The Alien Costume Ball at 8 p.m. A reggae band called Earth
Force will perform. Free.

The Mack Theater also will host a UFO video film festival at 4
p.m. Saturday. Documentaries will include "Out of the Blue,"
"Project Redstar - Martian Genesis," and "Crop Circles: Quest
for Truth," among others.

At 1 o'clock that afternoon in the theater, Willamette Radio
Workshop will perform a live re-creation of radio's most famous
broadcast - "War of the Worlds," which panicked people in 1938.

The UFO parade will start at 3 p.m. Saturday, traveling west on
Third Street from near the railroad tracks. There is a $5 entry
fee; spectators are free. Judges will inspect the entries at 2
p.m. and award prizes for Best Alien Float, Best Alien Group,
Best Alien Male and Female, Best Alien Baby and Best Alien Pet.

For more information about participating in the parade, call
Patti Webb at the downtown association, 503-472-3605, or contact
her via e-mail at ufoparade@downtownmcminnville.com.

In conjunction with the festival, earthlings and others may
enter an out-of-this-world essay contest and explain, "Why I
think my mother is an alien."

Entries are due by noon Saturday at the downtown association
headquarters in the Cozine House at Third and Adams streets.
Entries also can be e-mailed to ufoessay@downtownmcminnvile.com.

For more information about the contest or the festival in
general, call 503-472-3605.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]






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                        Roswell UFO Festival Changes

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:21:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:21:58 -0400
Subject: Roswell UFO Festival Changes


Source: Roswell Daily Record - Roswell, New Mexico

http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/050603/news02.html

05-06-03

UFO Festival To See Some Changes

Ryan Stark Record Vistas Editor

Fans of both extraterrestrials and country music might be very
happy as two big changes for the 2003 Roswell UFO Festival were
announced at a Monday afternoon press conference in Roswell.

During the July 4-5 event, the festival's Saturday night concert
will feature country music legends Merle Haggard, Marty Stewart
and Pam Tillis.

Roswell Chamber of Commerce CEO Shawn Hughes said it was
Haggard's idea to come to Roswell.

"Merle came to (his promoters) and said `I've got this great
idea; I want to do a UFO concert," Hughes said. "Merle wants to
make this an annual event and actually contacted us about coming
here. We understand that he is very excited about making this a
very big part of his year. It just shows the kind of attention
we receive from the UFO Festival when Nashville is aware of us
and wants to join."

The other big news item announced at the news conference was the
chamber board's decision to move most festival events to the
Eastern New Mexico State Fairgrounds.

"One of the reasons we elected to move to the fairgrounds is
elbow room," said festival committee chairman John Trujillo.

There will be a shuttle service provided, running between the
fairgrounds and the downtown area all weekend.

"The downtown shuttle service is designed to bring more people
downtown, as well as hopefully provide a link to their hotels
and motels where we can increase the flow out to the
fairgrounds," Hughes said.

He added, "We're very aware of the logistics in terms of making
the transition from downtown to the fairgrounds."

New festival events will include a new sci-fi film festival
featuring classic films, kids' rides, a "Great Alien Rescue"
prize giveaway and the Independent UFO Music Festival. Returning
events will include the alien light parade, the alien
marketplace and a costume contest.

The UFO Festival celebrates the incident of 1947 involving the
purported crash of an alien ship in the desert outside Roswell,
allegedly later recovered by the military. This year's festival
will be the ninth annual event, marking the 56th anniversary of
the crash.

Hughes said more than 10,000 visitors attended last year's
festival, and the planners are hopeful the attendance may top
the 13,000 mark this year.

Volunteers are being sought to help with a variety of tasks
associated with the festival. Anyone interested is encouraged to
call the Roswell Chamber of Commerce at 623-5695.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]








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                          FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:32:08 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:30:08 -0400
Subject:  FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151


[LWB Note:  Mr. Gersten has given me his permission to have the
below-forwarded message posted upon a few choice websites
(including Mr. Bruce-Knapp's "UFO Updates."]

----------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151 (Re:  Fee-Waiver Request of
Larry W. Bryant) From: UFOLAWYER1@aol.com

Date:    Tue, May 6, 2003 3:26 pm
To:      osfoia@nbc.gov
Cc:      overtci@cavtel.net


TO: Assistant Secretary for FOIA Appeals
U. S. Department of the Interior
Washington, DC 20240

FROM: Peter A. Gersten
Director, Citizens Against UFO Secrecy
P.O. Box 2443
Sedona, AZ 86339
928-524-4074

DATE: May 6, 2003

CAUS consultant Larry W. Bryant, who directs the CAUS
Washington, D.C., Office from his home in Alexandria, Va., might
be called the I. F. Stone (or even the H. L. Mencken) of
UFOlogy.

Were they alive today at the peak of their performance, neither
Stone nor Mencken would be, or should be, denied a records-
search-fee waiver for FOIA access to ANY agency's system of
records. Likewise, your deference to Mr. Bryant's journalistic
requester status should be extended immediately and
unqualifiedly to him, whose body of published credits (plus his
potential for more) speaks for itself.

With the advent of the Internet, Mr. Bryant's capability to
disseminate his works swiftly and widely has multiplied over the
past several years -- thus increasing his value to fellow
researchers, writers, and activists upon whom the reading public
has come to depend for up-to-date and incisive news,
information, and commentary.

For this reason, I submit this statement in support of his
appeal No. 2003-151 (April 20, 2003), and I encourage him to use
it as expert evidence if and when his case reaches the
litigation stage.


Peter A. Gersten, Esq.







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             Re: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:36:56 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:37:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia - Harrison


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:38:57 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia

 >>From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:58:29 +1000
 >>Subject: Italian Satellite Falls On Australia


 >>Italian Satellite Drops From Sky over Australia

<snip>

 >>"Time was 10.04 pm". "At first we thought it was a plane
 >>crashing so we watched it until it disappeared over the tops of
 >>tree's to the west. Steven of Bigger Water said: "I was
 >>traveling along Merleen avenue at 10.05 pm when I noticed an
 >>object come flying over from the >east, I turned my car around
 >>as the object >was travelling west to get a better look". "It
 >>looked like a very large meteor, glowing >metallic white to
 >>gold in colour with a tail".

 >>I thought this has to be a satellite reentering as
 >>it was huge."

<snip>

 >First of all, I thought I read about this satellite coming down
 >on Thursday or Friday in the Pacific near South America! Is this
 >a different Italian satellite?

Yes I thought the same Chaz and investigated as to how many
Italian satellites had reentered in the past weeks/months, to which
I found one other  mentioned in the space events diary at this
webpage: http://www.ssc.se/ssd/diary.html run by the Swedish
Space Corporation.

Abstract:
The Italian BeppoSAX satellite re-entered the Earth's atmosphere
on 29 April and broke up and fell into the Pacific  Ocean, 180 miles
NW of the Galapagos Islands.

I guess the Italians are just like the rest of the world they just dump
all kinds of rubbish on OZ (smile) hey you just have to watch our TV.


Regards,

Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@hypermax.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@hypermax.net.au
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com







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                       Re: UFO 'Detector' - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:05:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:45:11 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector' - Stevenson


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:58:37 -0500
 >Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector'

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:08:43 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO 'Detector'

 >>>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:12:58 -0500
 >>>Subject: UFO 'Detector'

 >><snip>

 >>>Not being strong in electronics I'm gonna go out on a limb and
 >>>presume that there are a myriad of events that could set this
 >>>thing off.

 >>>http://www.ufo-detector.com/

<snip>


Hello all

Although the price of this apparatus is low I use a more
infallable cheaper method to detect UFOs, namely - Power
Outages.

l believe the frequency to look for on an old TV for UFOs
- with directional antenna - is arround 51 Mhz anolog. Not
digital or Nicam stereo.


:-)
Colin







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                        Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:16:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:48:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Gevaerd


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:58:22 -0300
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?
 >
 >
 >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:10:43 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?
 >
 >>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:12:08 -0300
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?

<snip>

 >>Is there any chance that you may know what is Castro's thoughts
 >>on UFOs and extraterrestrial life? I wonder if he, as a world
 >>leader (despite being a dictator), would have information on the
 >>subject, as I believe that most people in his position would.
 >>And if so, has he ever expressed publicly or privately what is
 >>his views about it?

 >>Also, I remember that when we met in Bras=EDlia, 1983, you gave me
 >>a signed copy of your book UFOs From Undersea, for which I thank
 >>you again. It covers the very interesting Filiberto Cardena's
 >>case. I was wondering if has this case any new development or
 >>have you any new info about the "people" that visited the man?

 >>The reason I ask is because most Brazilian cases of direct
 >>encounters with aliens in late the 70s and early 80s have an on-
 >>going situation. Several people taken from 1978 to 1983, or so,
 >>have been abducted some other times than the first one. Antonio
 >>Carlos Ferreira, for instance, was abducted over than 20 times
 >>until the late 80s. Most of his abductions were closely
 >>monitiored by researchers and doctors.


 >About your question: Castro's thoughts on UFOs and
 >extraterrestrial life?. You are in better position asking the
 >Cuban Embassy in Brasilia, that me in the US.

 >The book UFO Contact from Undersea has been out of print long
 >time ago. We have a CD-Book with his and other rare abduction
 >cases we investigated with the late J. Allen Hynek. Send me a
 >private e-mail for information.

 >Yes, we find out that Cardenas has encounters, not only after
 >his abduction on January 3, 1979 but since his childhood. After
 >being the center of ugly jokes in the Spanish radio like: "he
 >was smoking a big Havana marijuana cigar" and even a Cha Cha
 >record named "El Platillo Volador" (The Flying Saucer) by
 >skeptics, his family decide to moved to New York and stop
 >contact with ufologists.


Dear Dr. Virgilio:

I guess that people at Cuban Embassy in Brasilia would never
answer what are Castro's thoughts on UFOs and extraterrestrial
life. But I will enquire anyway. Have you (or anybody on this
list) any info whatsoever if has Castro ever mentioned such
subjects?

My e-mail is gevaerd@ufo.com.br. I would appreciate having more
info about the CD-Book you mention. And thanks for the update
about Cardenas. It is said how people react to the UFO
Phenomena.


A. J.







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             Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Romanek

From: Stan Romanek
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:01:54 -0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:36:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Romanek


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:26:55 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Stan Romanek
 >>Date: Mon,  5 May 2003 12:50:25 +0000 (GMT)
 >>Subject: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

 >>[Non-Subscriber Post]

 ><snip>

 >>The only problem is, things keep happening!

 ><snip>

 >>that would be the best place to go to keep track and it's going
 >>to be a wild ride I think!!!!

 >Do any Listers think this would be a good time and place for
 >installing an environmental monitor of some sort, the UFO
 >detector, or the PC-monitored type?  Or possibly one of the 10-
 >12 hour video recorders located remotely from Mr. Romanek's
 >home?


Eleanor,

Investigators have been working on getting an Environmental
Monitor installed here. Even though the people involved have
agreed to do it, there has been no more response.

If anyone has any suggestions please let me know

Thanks

Stan Romanek





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                          Filer's Files #19 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:13:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:38:52 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #19 -- 2003


Filer's Files #19 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
May 7, 2003, Majorstar@aol.com
Webmaster: Chuck Warren -- My website is at: www.Georgefiler.com
Sponsored by: www.filer.unfranchise.com

WORLDWIDE UFO SIGHTINGS INCREASE AT END OF APRIL

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. Sun is racked by powerful solar flares
causing extreme weather and earthquakes. Asteroid named in Mr.
Rogers honor. Connecticut metallic saucer spotted, New York -
white blob hovering over security facility, Pennsylvania -
diamond shaped craft hovering, Florida - elongated orange
cigar, Illinois gold illuminated object, Wisconsin - four bright
orange lights play "leapfrog", Iowa formation of five shiny
metallic ovals, Arkansas disk, South Dakota - Five points of
light moving quickly and erratically, Texas - chevron shape
moves rapidly, New Mexico flashing red light, Arizona - bright
diamond object, California flying triangle on Easter night,
Canada - V shaped object and truck size lights, Peru - big
bright light on volcano, England - Spain - oval shaped craft
with no lights, Sweden - daylight disc hovers over housing area
Italian UFO sightings drop in March Ukraine - April UFO wave
over Crimea, Strange bright lights over Australia

EXTREME WEATHER ON EARTH CAUSED BY SUNSPOTS AND SOLAR FLARES

Mitch Battros predicted last week: "You can expect continued
extraordinary windstorms, micro-burst, wind shears, and
straight-line winds and even earthquakes. Watch for sudden snow
fall, or sudden temperature changes to near 100 degrees in some
areas." His predictions have come true with freak snowstorms
being reported in California and Arizona. Sudden tornado and
"tornado-like" storms hitting areas from Nebraska to Tennessee.
Over 25 tornadoes have already been reported. Devastating
tornadoes occurred on May 5, killing 38! Mitch also predicts
there may be massive earthquake activity. Some to be over 6.0 in
magnitude with earthquakes in "unusual" areas." Three 6.0 and
larger earthquakes have occurred in last several days. See
http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/bulletin.html As you can see
from the above breaking news announcements, sometimes scientific
predictions go unheeded. The good news is my conviction we will
see our local weather personality using 'space weather' and
'earth science' as part of their forecast. The sun appears to be
causing catastrophe on Earth. The Equation: Sunspots =3D> Solar
Flares =3D> Magnetic Field Shift =3D> Shifting Ocean and Jet Stream
Currents =3D> Extreme Weather and Human Disruption. Today's
sunspot count is at 134. Sunspot region 349 continues to pose a
threat of M-Class flares. Space Weather News has announced a 60%
chance of M-Class flares to occur within the next 24 hours.
Thanks to Mitch Battros
http://www.earthchangestv.com/breaking/index2000.htm

SOYUZ LANDS SUCCESSFULLY CARRYING TWO ASTRONAUTS AND A COSMONAUT
several hundred miles from targeted landing site. They were
found more than two hours after reported landing in Kazakhstan.

ASTEROID IS NAMED IN MISTER ROGERS' HONOR

Fred Rogers, creator and host of public television's "Mister
Rogers' Neighborhood.'' Rogers died Feb. 27 at age 74 and in
his in his honor an asteroid "Misterrogers,'' formerly known as
No. 26858, honors "Mister Rogers touched the lives of millions.
  I doubt that there are many who have not been touched in some
way by the life and work of Fred Rogers,'' said John G.
Radzilowicz, director of the Henry Buhl Jr. Planetarium &
Observatory at the Carnegie Science Center. Rogers produced a
planetarium show for preschoolers called ``The Sky Above Mister
Rogers' Neighborhood.'' Asteroid now called "Misterrogers''
moves between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter, and is about 218
million miles from the sun, which it takes about 3 1/2 years to
orbit. He was a great man who will be missed.

CONNECTICUT SMALL METALLIC SAUCER SPOTTED

PLANTSVILLE -- Small, disc-like saucer spotted while driving on
I-84 near the highway on April 12, 2003, at 4:40 PM, appeared to
be small, but moving very fast and flipping over constantly. It
seemed to fly at a constant speed and altitude, and appeared to
be made of a metallic substance. Thanks to Peter Davenport (PD)
  www.UFOCENTER.com

NEW YORK - ORB HOVERS OVER SECURITY FACILITY

YAPHANK -- The witness was driving north on to Yaphank Avenue on
April 10, 2003, when a strobe light flash caught his attention,
when I looked North West I saw a whitish shape hovering above
the Suffolk County Minimum Security facility. I watched it until
the trees obstructed my view at 12:10 AM. There were no visible
lights, other than the initial flash that attracted my
attention. Once I reached my destination (on the same road), I
watched the general area for about 5 minutes, but there was no
further sign of the object. But an airplane did fly near the
same location about 5 minutes after my sighting. (NUFORC Note:
Witness is a member of law enforcement. PD)

PLATTSBURGH -- It moved from the northwestern to the
southeastern sky from where we were on April 16, 2003, at 9:00
PM an extremely high altitude and was moving at a speed covering
about 30 miles of sky in 1 min. My friend is a pilot and this is
how we came to the conclusion that this was not a man made
craft. It also did not have a tail ruling out a shouting star.
Nor did it have any flashing lights. It was a constant white
glow. This was followed shortly by the appearance of 2 fighter
jets that usually don't fly patterns this time of night. Thanks
to Peter Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

FLORIDA - ELONGATED ORANGE CIGAR

GAINESVILLE -- The witness was preparing Mom's flower bed on
April 22, 2003, at 8:52 PM, and was laying on the grass trying
to recover from the work." The observer says, "I was just laying
there watching fireflies and shooting stars go by, when I saw
what I thought was a very large meteor burning up." I saw an
orange flare suddenly appear in the sky but instead of burning
up it slowed down and passed over me. It was orange, glowing,
and elongated. Kind of like a cylinder or cigar. I yelled
"What the hell is that?" and I must have sounded upset because
my mother looked up. I told her I saw it enter the atmosphere
and if it was a plane we'd only see lights blinking. We watched
it until it was too far away to see and it flew south in a slow
(slower then even a single prop plane) curving zigzag. It just
slowly went from left to right as it went forward. My heart's
still racing. I've seen a lot of strange lights out here in the
past, but this is the first time I actually saw a shape.
  Thanks to Peter Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

ILLINOIS GOLD ILLUMINATED OBJECT

ORLAND PARK -- Sam Maranto writes, "My wife and I had a great
sighting last night on LaGrange Road 159th Street of a large
Gold/Orange illuminating object with other lights
ascending/descending from or about it." This was a GREAT
sighting that we observed for two stop lights and a few miles at
30 to 45 mph before it flew out of view. My official response
so far has been form radio dispatch for Orland Park/Hills Police
dispatch "balloons & children". It had one hell of a light
system and a most sophisticated propulsion unit. Its speed and
light show make it unlikely to be attached to balloons or else
they have a better expense account than NASA. Thanks to
  ILLINOIS MUFON marantoj@prodigy.net

WISCONSIN - FOUR BRIGHT ORANGE LIGHTS "LEAPFROG"

PLOVER -- There were four bright orange lights about a hundred
feet high, probably less than a mile away near Highway 54 at
9:30 PM, on April 24, 2003, They were in a horizontal line,
maybe 20 feet spacing between each one. It appeared as though
the right-most light split into two, and the new light floated
off farther to the right, and the left-most light faded out. So,
in this leapfrog fashion, there seemed to always be 4 lights in
the sky. They "leapfrogged" 3 or 4 times while I was watching.
Then they faded away. This all happened in less than 10 seconds.
  This was in the southwest corner of Plover, Wisconsin,
appearing to be. It was a mostly clear, warm spring evening.
  www.UFOCENTER.com

ARKANSAS DISK

ROYAL -- The observers were taking pictures on April 18, 2003,
just before dark at 7:30 PM, on a lake. They report, "We did
not see objects until we downloaded pictures on our computer."

ANCHORAGE -- A group of friends were outside on the upper deck
on April 19, 2003, at 12:30 AM, when one witness saw two stars
start moving past the other stars. One "star" seemed to be
leading the other, and they made a fairly sharp turn together
before disappearing in about 15 seconds. I was the only one who
saw this. Five minutes later, I saw a single "star" make its
way straight down the sky, making a couple slight changes in
direction along the way. One of my friends saw most of this
maneuver. Thanks to Peter Davenport

IOWA FORMATION OF FIVE SHINY METALLIC OVALS

CEDAR RAPIDS -- Five shiny metallic ovals in tight formation
moving north to south over downtown Cedar Rapids on April 14,
2003, at 4:00 PM, Ovals would switch and trade positions with
one another while maintaining a tight formation. I would guess
that they were at a couple thousand feet in altitude. Thanks to
Peter Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

SOUTH DAKOTA - FIVE POINTS OF LIGHT MOVE ERRATICALLY

HOT SPRINGS -- Five points of light were seen moving somewhat
jerkily and more quickly than satellites on April 24, 2003.
  They were not quite in a straight line and all were seen within
about 15 to 20 minutes of each other around 9 PM. First one
appeared as a light increasing in intensity then fading, then
moved southeast, next one northwest, then 2 southeast, then 1
more appeared overhead with a bright flash, faded, and moved
southeast. About five minutes later four different aircraft
moved through the area although appeared to be at lower
altitude-identified as aircraft, because had port and starboard
lights and strobes on and 1 was low enough to be audible. We are
an hour's drive from Ellsworth Air Force Base. Thanks to Peter
Davenport

NEW MEXICO FLASHING RED LIGHT

GALLUP -- A very sharp, fast flashing red light was spotted on
April 20, 2003, at 2 AM, traveling southwest at a slow pace.
Suddenly the light stopped it's motion and became still with no
movement. The sharp, red flashing continued and suddenly, the
red light began to zigzag up and down. It did this for 4 or 5
turns then stopped (continuing to flash sharply). I watched it
for what seemed like 2-3 minutes. The evening was very calm and
clear with about a 3/4 full moon.

Then the object lit up and shot out at an extremely fast pace
towards the southwest. The red light went from still, no motion
to blast off. It looked very similar to a comet with a light
tail. It flew into light speed. Thanks to Peter Davenport
  www.UFOCENTER.com

ARIZONA BRIGHT DIAMOND OBJECT

SOUTH PHOENIX -- On April 21, 2003, roommates while sitting in
the hot tub at 9:45 PM, noticed a bright light in the sky. The
eyewitness states, "My roommate started looking towards the west
so a I looked too, because of the light of the object was so
bright and big." We saw a diamond shape light extremely bright
(brighter than the moon) moving at great speed west to east. We
saw it for possibly 5-8 seconds before it vanished. Thanks to
Peter Davenport

CALIFORNIA FLYING TRIANGLE ON EASTER NIGHT

CARDIFF-BY-THE-SEA -- Standing on the beach at 9:07 PM I noticed
lights moving across the sky on April 20, 2003, I looked up to
see a large flying triangle craft with 60 degree angles, rounded
corners and three LARGE (each light was at least 1/10 the size
of the entire craft) white lights located on the bottom of the
object centered toward each corner. The object followed a near
straight path from south to north about 1,000 ft. up and just
off the Pacific coast. It seemed to be moving faster than a
commercial jet, but was two to three times as large, and made no
sound that I could hear. It had no visible wings or tail, but
flew with the triangle pointed in the direction of flight. I am
22 year old male and obtained my associates degree two years
ago.

SAN FRANCISCO -- A disk-shaped object with pulsating lights with
a general color of white and slate blue emerged from behind low
clouds on April 23, 2003, at 10:22 PM, and acted like a plane
would as it trailed across the sky from west to east in the
southern sky. But then it zigged slightly and seemingly a bit
too sharply for a plane or helicopter. about two seconds later
it moved extremely quickly out, directly away from our vantage
point and in a matter of a second it was a pinpoint then gone.
Thanks to Peter Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

CANADA SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

GUELPH, ONTARIO -- A series of dim lights in a V-shaped
formation were sighted on April 24, 2003. It was not so much a
triangle that seemed to change shape before we lost sight of it.
We believe it had seven lights, with three on each wing and one
in the center lead. One witness who is a former F-18 pilot
estimated it was flying at 4,000 feet at high speed heading
north. It flew silently above us, but did not appear to be a
known aircraft.

HOUSTON -- On April 24, 2003, starting at 10:55 PM, two
witnesses caught sight of a really interesting and strange
light/object. At two kilometers west of the town in front of
them a small glowing sphere shaped object was almost sitting on
Highway #16 at the top of the hill. The witness had just crossed
the bridge when they caught sight of this light. As they got
about half way up the hill, the light disappeared from their
line of sight. Once they arrived at the crest of the hill, again
they noted the light moving north away from them, and flying
almost straight down Highway 16 at a low altitude. It flew 80 to
100 feet off the road. The witnesses were at the time traveling
at a speed of 80 to 90 kilometer per hour and the object was
slowly pulling a head of them. They lost sight of it once again
just before the Irrigation Lake turn off. The only reason the
object disappeared from their vision was due to the hills
blocking their view. The total time that they observed the event
was twenty to thirty seconds. The object was completely round,
glowing, and pulsating. It was about the size of a small digital
satellite dish from the distance they had to view it. The object
made no sudden movements, such as to the right or left, it
stayed on a straight flight path. They heard no sound heard
coming from it. Also at one point the object seemed to light up
the solid white reflective center roadway markings.

QUICK, BC -- On April 24, 2003, a farmer and his son out tending
their cattle on a dairy farm at 11:20 PM, when they saw a bright
ball of white/yellowish light. The son was hauling out manure
from the barn with their tractor when he gave out a yell for his
Dad to come out and look. He pointed to the western edge of
their farm, and sitting at a dead stop just over the top of
evergreen trees, was the ball of light. No sound could be heard
from it. It was close to the size of a full pickup truck. The
sighting lasted ten to fifteen seconds, before it started moving
north towards the Telkwa/Smithers area. They lost sight of the
light/object after it rose up slightly to get over a small hill
in the distance. They said what ever it was seemed to take it's
time and flew in a straight line to the west, but at a very low
level before having to gain a little in altitude to make it over
top a hill. There was no reaction from the farm animals.

TYHEE LAKE, TELKWA -- On April 24, 2003, at 11:45 PM, the
observer was driving on Telkwa High Road near Tyhee Lake
Provincial Park, when he observed a ball of light flying
"erratically" low over the lake. The light was moving quite
quickly and seemed out of control when it first caught his
attention. He stopped his vehicle to watch, and it cast it's
light onto the lake below it. There was no sound, but he
remained in his vehicle as the "thing" flew up the lake, moving
from side to side, up and down, until it reached almost half way
up the lake, then it veered off to the northeast towards Babine
Lake at a high rate of speed, clearing the mountain on the far
side of the lake. The sighting lasted a little over ten
seconds. The object was the size of a small car, was bright,
and an off white in color. Thanks to Brian Vike HBCC UFO
Research
http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm

PERU - BIG BRIGHT LIGHT ON VOLCANO

AREQUIPA -- At 4 PM, a big bright light was seen on top of Pichu
Pichu Volcano at 4,800 meters above sea level on April 17, 2003.
  There are no airports or roads in this remote Andean region in
Peru. The witness says, "I had my digital camera, and took
several pictures and a video in MPG format. The light was
flashing/moving up and down as if someone was holding a giant
mirror against the sun on top of the volcano." ((NUFORC Note:
Witness provides high-quality video tape of the glinting from
the top of a distant mountain. We do not know what caused the
phenomenon, but we do observe that the Sun is almost directly
behind the photographer, and a three-corner reflector device for
accurately measuring the seismic changes in the movement of the
volcano might cause the reflection, although that is purely a
guess on our part. PD))

UK/ENGLAND LIGHTS AND BEAMS AT HIGH SPEED

NORWICH -- Two friends were walking back from the city, on April
11, 2003, at 2 AM, when they saw an object in the sky, with two
lights on the top and a beam of light coming from the bottom.
  The eyewitnesses state, "The object seemed to direct us into
the road so we could see it and once we realized it wasn't a
plane we ran up towards it." As we got closer it moved so it
was facing directly towards us. Then it hovered left and right
between a cut in the houses. There was a main road next to the
houses so we had to stand in the road to see it. After about 40
seconds it completely disappeared.

WOLVERHAMPTON -- An unidentified craft was seen accelerating to
massive speeds then instantly changing direction on April 20,
2003. The craft appeared to be a standard civilian jumbo jet at
first glance, but all you could see was the lights on what
appeared to be the wings. It traveled north at 9 PM, and
accelerated to an astonishing speed then instantly shot
southeast and disappeared behind a hill. Thanks to Peter
Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

CANARY ISLAND=B4S - DAYLIGHT SIGHTING OF OVAL CRAFT

LOS REALEJOS, TENERIFE ISLAND, SPAIN -- On April 11, 2003, the
witness was driving was driving in the country between banana
plantations at 9:30 AM, and saw a white small oval-shaped craft
with no lights that made no noise. The eyewitness reports, "It
flew in one direction and went inside the clouds that were not
high, then it appeared flying in the opposite direction and the
speed of the craft was slow." At first I thought it was a big
bird, but after I saw it was oval. I stopped the car and
started looking for it, but I couldn't find it again." Thanks
to Peter Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

SWEDISH DAYLIGHT DISC HOVERS OVER HOUSING AREA

STOCKHOLM -- The onlooker reports, "My girlfriend and me was
about to eat lunch on April 11, 2003, at 3:40 PM, when she saw a
disc shaped thing hovering over a housing area in Stockholm. It
stood still for a few seconds and moved rapidly to another spot
to hover again. I grabbed my digital camera to record this
strange behaving object. Unfortunately I only got three seconds
on film, due to my aged camera. I have never seen anything
moving so fast nor hovering at such precision, we are to this
day puzzled over what we saw. It was an amazing sight! I
uploaded the movie at my personal. homepage:
http://medlem.spray.se/downloathe/UFO.avi

(NUFORC Note: We have viewed the video clip, which shows a disc-
shaped object hovering over a populated shoreline, then suddenly
banking toward the camera and accelerating very rapidly to the
left. The rocking of the boat, from which the video apparently
was taken, helps provide some reference for the acceleration of
the object. PD)

ITALIAN UFO SIGHTINGS DROP IN MARCH

The number of reports of sightings of UFO phenomena, occurring
in Italy during the month of March and collected by the Internet
working group for the caselog of the Italian Center for UFO
Studies (CISU), has totaled 27. This is a drop of fifty percent
from February, bringing in the month of March at its usual
average and the first quarter at the same levels of preceding
years (with the exception of 2002, which was "richer" by 50%):
with 177 cases. The quarter's reports were concentrated more
than usual in the northern regions, which alone account for two-
thirds of the total: 70% were nocturnal lights and 8% daytime
objects. Three cases involved effects on the surrounding
environment; three featured photographs; thirteen involving
filmed sequences; and a good six objects were observed falling
to Earth.

CORSO'S DIARY -- The Pendragon Publishing House in Bologna is
sending to bookstores the much-ballyhooed diary of Lt.Col.
Philip Corso, published for the first time worldwide and edited
by Maurizio Baiata. The late, former US Army Officer recounts
his version of reverse-engineering and technologies derived from
the analysis of an alien flying saucer that allegedly crashed
near Roswell in 1947. Its title is "L'alba di una nuova era: I
segreti alieni nascosti dal Pentagono" ("Dawn of a New Age:
Alien Secrets Concealed by the Pentagon"), totals 192 pages and
sells for 14 Euro. Website Upiar Store (www.upiar.com), Thanks
to Edoardo Russo, Italian Center for UFO Studies
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm.

UFO WAVE OVER CRIMEA, UKRAINE

SIMFEROPOL -- The Ukrainian UFO Association reports the end of
April was a hot UFO week over the Crimean peninsula (Krym
Autonomous Republic), south of Ukraine. A bright pulsating
multicolor "STAR" was seen by 53 years old Lenura A. Azizova on
April 23, 2003, at 10:30 PM. The witness stepped outside her
house and suddenly noticed a bright flash in sky and a pulsating
light right in the middle of constellation Auriga. The light
was very bright, like an electric lamp that was pulsating red,
violet, yellow and white. It flew in a zigzag trajectory, up
and down through the sky. It definitely was not a satellite nor
airplane. This object made no sound and was observed for three
to five minutes, before it flew away. The object was estimated
to be huge about 112 meters in size. It had a multi corner
form, with 5 corner-rays, like a sea star in shape, with central
dome on top, and sign like a trident on its hull. Based on the
data obtained, Anton believes, this could possibly be an alien
spacecraft from Sirius A star system.

BRIGHT WHITE OBJECT HOVERS -- On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 8
PM, two residents of Simferopol, Aleksey and Alexander Z.
observed an unusual object in southwestern sky, not far from
Sirius. Suddenly, the bright white "star," brighter even than
Sirius, appeared high in sky after flash. It was hovering for
several seconds, slowly moving, and then sharply fade away, like
the electric lamp being switched off.

ALIEN ABDUCTION IN SIMFEROPOL -- The local resident reported
that in the evening, when he went on to his balcony of the
multistoried building, he dazedly noticed the strangest scene he
ever saw in his life. A ray of light descended from sky
pointing at a nearby balcony. Suddenly, a totally naked man
appeared in the center of this light right on the balcony. The
UFO itself was obviously hovering above, but it was not visible.
  Only the ray of light shinning down could be seen. The man was
apparently half-conscious and in a fagged out state. Being
frightened, the witness left his balcony back to his flat in
fear that he might be abducted too.

UFO HOVERS OVER HIGHWAY -- On Thursday, April 24, 2003, a disk-
shaped UFO was seen hovering over Evpatoriyskoye Highway
northwest of Simferopol's outskirts, near the Dzerzhinskiy"
collective farm. An energetic anomaly flew off the craft that
may be responsible for an auto accident. Later that day, at the
same location a road accident occurred when two cars collided.
  All drivers and passengers survived, but both cars were
destroyed. Note the 24th, of every month is very active date
for UFOs. Thanks to Anton A. Anfalov, UKUFAS (Ukrainian UFO
Association) an@crimea.com

SENEGAL AMAZING INCREDIBLE SOUND AND LIGHT

DAKAR -- On April 11, 2003, at 4:30 AM, there was just
incredible sound and the light coming out from the object which
seemed to be as powerful as the sunlight. Thanks to Peter
Davenport www.UFOCENTER.com

STRANGE BRIGHT LIGHTS OVER AUSTRALIA

MELBOURNE -- On April 24, 2003, my Mum and me could see a clear
pure bright light and it sort of stayed in one spot for five
seconds then sped off fairly fast. I couldn't make out a clear
shape since the light inhibited that. My Mum also saw this
light and was blown away by what she saw.

THE NORTHERN TERRITORY NEWS was flooded with calls from people
who all say they saw the same thing from their Nightcliff homes
-- eight bright yellowish-orange lights in perfect formation
over the Timor Sea. Rajiv Maharaj reports that on May 06, 2003,
"A set of mysterious bright lights in the Northern Territory's
night sky have residents in the beachside suburb of Nightcliff
abuzz with talk of an alien encounter." "People were out on the
road, pointing to the bright lights and yelling it was an alien
invasion," mother of three Yvonne Morris said. People were just
stunned. Brad McDonald, 48, was at the Nightcliff Jetty fishing
with family and friends when he saw the lights on Saturday about
9 PM. "I've never seen anything like it -- it was bloody
strange," Mr. McDonald said. But he said he had a strange
feeling before he saw the glowing lights. "I thought it was odd
before that because the fish were biting like hell, and then all
of a sudden the tide went out." He described the lights as
bright orange-yellow about 1 kilometer away, and in perfect
formation. "My mate reckons they were weather balloons, but I
disagree -- they were too perfect, " There were 40 people at the
jetty and we were all intrigued," he said. Ms Morris and her
children were sitting on the verandah of their beach front
property when the orange-yellow lights first appeared. "The
eight lights were about 45 degrees from each other, and appeared
to be fairly structured." UFO sightings are fairly common in
the NT -- no place more so than Wickliffe Well, 1100 kilometers
south of Darwin, where Holiday Park owner Lew Farkas is the
local expert on UFOs, having seen them with monotonous
regularity over 18 years. "The closest look I got of one was
the spaceship's portholes, but I couldn't see the alien bloke
inside," Mr. Farkas, 54, said last night. He said the formation
described by the Nightcliff residents was similar to ones he had
seen. "It sounds like it was one MOTHERSHIP, with the other
supporting craft on the side," he said. Thanks to THE NORTHERN
TERRITORY NEWS

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE!

Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help your
buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me
at  Majorstar@aol.com

GRAPES AND OPC-3 SECRET TO LONG LIFE

If you want to keep your heart strong, get your fill of grapes.
  Like wine, red and green grapes contain disease-fighting
according to the study by the Cardiovascular Research Center at
the University of Connecticut Health Center. Polyphenols are
antioxidants that help keep the body free of oxidative stress, a
major cause of cardiovascular disease, say Dipak K. Das, Ph.D.,
lead study author and director. In the studies grapes provided
improved blood flow and heart-pumping capacity: they also
reduced the area of tissue damage after a heart attack. To get
these cardio-protection savor a clump of 12 to 15 grapes four
times a week. My family was having serious allergy, and
pollution associated illnesses. I asked my Medical Doctor
friend what he would recommend, and he told me he treats 62
different ailments such as allergies, heart and various
breathing problems with amazing success using Isotonix OPC-3.
  You can purchase antioxidants Isotonix OPC-3 for about a
dollar a day.

You can lose weight Ephedra Free at: lose weight. For the
latest in Antiaging technology and HGH enhancement see: Anti-
aging


MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership.

"The MUFON Journal is now accepting qualified advertising,
please call 1 (303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF
THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer www.filer.unfranchise.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 7

                       Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Ticchetti

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:46:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:45:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba? - Ticchetti


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:16:08 -0300
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?

 >>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:58:22 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Over Cuba?

<snip>

 >>About your question: Castro's thoughts on UFOs and
 >>extraterrestrial life? You are in better position asking the
 >>Cuban Embassy in Brasilia, that me in the US.

 >>The book UFO Contact from Undersea has been out of print long
 >>time ago. We have a CD-Book with his and other rare abduction
 >>cases we investigated with the late J. Allen Hynek. Send me a
 >>private e-mail for information.

 >>Yes, we find out that Cardenas has encounters, not only after
 >>his abduction on January 3, 1979 but since his childhood. After
 >>being the center of ugly jokes in the Spanish radio like: "he
 >>was smoking a big Havana marijuana cigar" and even a Cha Cha
 >>record named "El Platillo Volador" (The Flying Saucer) by
 >>skeptics, his family decide to moved to New York and stop
 >>contact with ufologists.

 >I guess that people at Cuban Embassy in Brasilia would never
 >answer what are Castro's thoughts on UFOs and extraterrestrial
 >life. But I will enquire anyway. Have you (or anybody on this
 >list) any info whatsoever if has Castro ever mentioned such
 >subjects?

 >My e-mail is gevaerd@ufo.com.br. I would appreciate having more
 >info about the CD-Book you mention. And thanks for the update
 >about Cardenas. It is said how people react to the UFO
 >Phenomena.

List,

The Cuban Embassy is here in Brasilia, where I live. I contacted
yesterday the Cuban Ambassador, Mr. Jorge Lezcano Perez. My work
gives me full access to all Ambassadors. I know some of them
very well.

But Perez told me that he did have any information about UFOs
over Cuba, here, in the Cuban Embassy, but do not doubt that
there is something back in Cuba. He promissed to help me trying
to find something.

I am getting in touch with some embassies to get information
about UFOs... maybe, who knows.


Regards,

Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-presidente da EBE-ET/RAB
Brasilia/DF
Brasil






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 7

                                  IFOs 101

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:48:26 -0400
Subject: IFOs 101


Dear Errol and List:

I'd like to teach a short course in - IFOs 101 - for UFO
investigators, researchers and interested parties.

If you would like to learn more about IFOs, please take your
seat and pay attention.

POP QUIZ!

Go to:

http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

and tell me what the object is I filmed on May 5, 2003.

Class dismissed, see you tomorrow. Bring apples! ;>


A. Hebert







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 7

                     Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:53:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:03:34 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King


 >From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:23:41 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:44:14 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:41:34 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:33:00 -0500
 >>>>Subject: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>From what I know Anthony Woods and Santiago Yturria no longer
 >>>get along. Woods believes Yturria didn't handle his case
 >>>properly, thus he went to UFO Mag.

 >This quotation does not come from Mr. Dan Bright or Amy Hebert
 >but is an invention by you Mr. Tom King. I ask the List to
 >review both Amy Hebert and Dan Bright messages posted here to
 >confirm none of them said these words.

 >So where did you get these words?

 From Mr Woods himself. I have heard 'things'.

 >Or it's just a personal guess
 >from you. For 12 months I have been involved in deep research of
 >this case and I have gathered miles and miles of personal and
 >confidential conversations with the witness. I have gathered
 >scores of UFO footage, testimonials, statements and supporting
 >letters to my work from him. I have published a vast amount of
 >reports all over the Internet and presented this case in several
 >conferences in the US and here in Mexico.

 >I have known a lot of situations and delicate affairs that
 >remain in the case's dossier. And I'm still supporting this case
 >and sustaining my allegations. Don't you sincerely think, Mr.
 >King, that if the witness had not felt satisfied and identified
 >with me and my research work he could have ended his
 >relationship with me within a month? 12 months is a long time
 >of relationship.

That is certainly what happened. Everyone has a falling out with
other researchers or witnesses from time to time. I have butted
heads with plenty of researchers and friends after years of
working on cases. I'm a stuborn man I guess. I'm not really so
interested in UFO cases for making relationships but for
gathering facts.

 >It's clear that your quotation is very personal and more
 >oriented to other considerations not to the escence of the case
 >itself.

What I stated was revealed to me my Mr. Woods, I will not repeat
what he told me but he was not happy with you to say the least
and that is one reason he went to UFO Mag.

 >I will suggest you that instead of inventing quotations
 >you express your personal feelings and thoughts directly so we
 >can understand each other in a better way. Play fair.

 >>When Yturria posted here a couple weeks ago, he hadn't been
 >>involved in the Woods case for 9 months. He should have known he
 >>didn't have the rights to distrubute copies of Woods footage to
 >>anyone on the List since it wasn't his property.

 >First it was not 9 months but 7 months. My offer was sincere and
 >my interest compromised to establish the truth. But the witness
 >said NO and it's his footage so I have to respect his desires.
 >At the same time Graham Birdsall and the UFO Magazine had come
 >with the idea to produce a documentary about this case and I
 >think it's a great idea. I know personally Graham and I've been
 >honored by him to attend the Leeds Conferences twice and have
 >received always a warm affection from him. So I respect him and
 >support this new documentary to come. I'm convinced that the
 >british audiences will now know all about this case and will
 >find it extraordinary.

 >>>In addition to the Woods footage, a woman hailing from the same
 >>>locality, namely that of Bedhampton, near Havant, has produced
 >>>voluminous and equally as noteworthy video "evidence" as Anthony
 >>>Woods. Nicknamed "Bambi", aka. Abby Parker, she also peddled her
 >>>videos around the houses, eventually ending up at Mr. Yturria's
 >>>door. Again, I have not been fortunate enough to have studied
 >>>the first generation tapes of her footage and so I'm unable to
 >>>make any firm claims as to its veracity.

 >>Here we go again with "Bambi" AKA Abby Parker. Apparently she is
 >>trying to reinvent herself after releasing a series of out of
 >>focus images last year on Rense.com

<snip>

The case with 'Bambi' was nothing more than spam all over the
internet of out of focus images. This is certain ammo for
skeptics to show how ignorant UFO researchers can be.

People should be extemely skeptical of anything AKA Bambi puts
out after her images were blanketed all over the Net last year.

Once bitten twice shy.


Tom







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                  Re: Roswell UFO Festival Changes - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:41:43 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:06:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell UFO Festival Changes - Myers


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Date: 05/07/03 06:21 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Roswell UFO Festival Changes


 >Source: Roswell Daily Record - Roswell, New Mexico

 >http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/050603/news02.html

 >05-06-03

 >UFO Festival To See Some Changes

 >Ryan Stark Record Vistas Editor

 >Fans of both extraterrestrials and country music might be very
 >happy as two big changes for the 2003 Roswell UFO Festival were
 >announced at a Monday afternoon press conference in Roswell.

 >During the July 4-5 event, the festival's Saturday night concert
 >will feature country music legends Merle Haggard, Marty Stewart
 >and Pam Tillis.


Roswell = $$$$$


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III UFOWATCHDOG.COM "Don't Trip On Your Open
Mind... or all that cash flowing out of the crack of that
crashed saucer.....






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              Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:02:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:12:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - King


 >From: Stan Romanek
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:01:54 -0000 (GMT)
 >Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:26:55 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: Stan Romanek
 >>>Date: Mon,  5 May 2003 12:50:25 +0000 (GMT)
 >>>Subject: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

 >>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

 >><snip>

 >>>The only problem is, things keep happening!

<snip>

Stan,

I think we spoke once on the phone. I'd say keep your batteries
charged up. A tape ready and labeled for use when needed.

I don't really buy the idea of a UFO detector because you are the
detector and have to do it the hard way.

Happy hunting.


Tom King
www.ufovideo.com







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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:17:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:15:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - White


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:10:35 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Right now
 >we have a lot of one and not so much of the other.


Ian -

Probably, the difference between our points of view is that
there is an astounding amount of evidence of all sorts of very
serious crime, recent or in progress, by many governments
including the U.S. If someone listens regularly to _shortwave_
news broadcasts, such as The Power Hour, hosted by Joyce Riley
and Dave von Kleist, mornings, and the Alex Jones show,
afternoons, you discover that plenty of documentation exists
about those major non-UFO crimes.

(These shows are repeated at night.)

So when one more cover up comes along, such as that about the
UFO issue, to me it's not a big leap of faith to believe in that
one too.

If someone goes to the web sites of these shows, which feature
live and archived audio streams, the _first_ impression is "This
has to be the biggest load of _nonsense_ ever put on the air."
Alex Jones, particularly, uses a very sensational appearing web
site format and broadcasting style. But you need to look past
the style, to the sources.

These shortwave broadcasters are just as careful about
documentation as the best UFO researchers. Alex, in spite of his
sensationalized format, refuses often to carry on with callers
who do not have solid documentation to back them up.

If you would like to sample those two shows, their web sites
are:

http://www.thepowerhour.com

http://www.infowars.com

They cover crimes in the areas of medical cover ups, judicial
corruption, financial corruption, political corruption, as
examples. These are broad fields and it takes a while to hear
about the many crimes, but they are real. They don't require
anything exotic to prove. Most have been reported on via the
wire services, but never made it to CNN or the major newspapers.

If you, and others who doubt that a UFO cover up exists would
like to know about these other major cover ups, and you sample
enough shows to get a fair idea of the quality of their material
and sources, you may find that you come to agree that a UFO
cover up is at least likely.

I don't mean to push the belief there is a cover up - pushing
beliefs is a waste of time - but those other major crimes in
progress do explain, at least, my belief there is a whopper of a
cover up in the UFO field too.


Eleanor White

PS - Interestingly, there are quite a few Canadian callers to
those shows.





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                    Learn More About Meteors & Meteorites

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:50:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:17:41 -0400
Subject: Learn More About Meteors & Meteorites


List,

For those of you who wish to learn more about meteors and
meteorites, which are sometimes mistaken for UFOs, this article
in Nature might be of interest.

At least, you will learn how, meteoritically speaking, history
can repeat itself.  :)

Have a look:

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v423/n6936/full/
nature01592_fs.html

The link is so long, you may have to copy and paste it into your
browser.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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              Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:15:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:21:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - White


 >From: Stan Romanek
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:01:54 -0000 (GMT)
 >Subject: Stan Romanek

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:26:55 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case

<snip>

 >>Do any Listers think this would be a good time and place for
 >>installing an environmental monitor of some sort, the UFO
 >>detector, or the PC-monitored type? Or possibly one of the 10-
 >>12 hour video recorders located remotely from Mr. Romanek's
 >>home?

 >Investigators have been working on getting an Environmental
 >Monitor installed here. Even though the people involved have
 >agreed to do it, there has been no more response.

 >If anyone has any suggestions please let me know


Stan -

A couple of ideas:

- An extra long play video recorder, with the camcorder
at some distance from your home, run routinely every night. Same
setup as is used in store security cameras, but with the
recording done at a neighbour's house, camera aimed at yours.
12-hour recorders are available.

- A "Tri Field" meter, particularly the EMF-Natural model
which has an audio tone output, set up in your house and
monitored by either an audio tape recorder or long-playing video
recorder. Since electromagnetic and magnetic fields, and
possibly electrostatic under some circumstances, penetrate non-
metallic walls, for the sake of privacy, this setup could be
kept in a closet where family noise would be obscured or
muffled.

  http://www.TriField.com

The Tri Field staff told me that they will add the tone output
feature to any meter in their product line for a very reasonable
cost.

Of course PC monitoring and saving the information in digital
files is possible, but ratchets the cost up. The plus side of
using this type of equipment is that if provided by researchers,
it can be used in different sites.

A PC-monitored home weather station might also provide some data
of interest.

Some experimentation would be needed with the Tri Field meter so
that appropriate scales could be selected which will not show
much indication with normally present EM fields. The Tri Field
meters can be set to "vector sum" field readings in three axes,
which assures that no matter what the orientation of a UFO's EM
field, it will indicate.


Eleanor White







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                             Re: IFOs 101 - Carr

From: Scott C. Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:41:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:23:54 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 - Carr


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500
 >Subject: IFOs 101

 >POP QUIZ!

 >Go to:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

 >and tell me what the object is I filmed on May 5, 2003.

 >Class dismissed, see you tomorrow. Bring apples! ;>



That would most definitely be a flying saucer.

--Scott C. Carr






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                           New Mexico Rock Samples

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:19:56 -0400
Subject: New Mexico Rock Samples


Ray Stanford writes an excellent analysis re. the rock specimens
provided by Ed Gehrman, found here:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m06-016.shtml

I received my own samples today along with some high quality
Kodak prints of the alleged crash site. I have a short list of
questions:

1.) How certain is it that this site is the one described by Ray
Santilli's anonymous "cameraman"?

(I recall reading a debunking piece that described a visit to
the presumed crash site.  Supposedly some pro-crash adherents
had suggested that portions of the terrain had been modified to
conceal lingering evidence of the crash.  This was later
attributed to normal mining activity in the area, if I remember
correctly.)

2.) Is the glassy-looking material unique to certain areas in
the NM desert? If so, which ones?

3.) Exactly (or roughly) how localized is the glass-like
material and what might account for this?

Many thanks to both Ed and Ray for their efforts.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies
macbot@yahoo.com

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
(updated daily)







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                    Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:27:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:24:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - Yturria


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:53:06 +0000
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update


 >>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:23:41 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update
 >
 >>>From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:44:14 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>So where did you get these words?

 >From Mr Woods himself. I have heard 'things'.


So I was right and your quotation was not a reference posted in
this dialogue. If this comment was made to you as you said by
the witness himself (wich I doubt) then you should have
addressed it properly saying: "He told me this or that about
you", then I could reply also properly.

But if you just 'heard' rumors I think it's not valid. I have
also heard a lot of things about you but that doesn't mean I
would belive them or make quotes for some purpose, right?

In any case and referring to your initial post to this UFO Duck
Hunting thread I will quote your comment made in April 14.

 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:54:54 +0000
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting!

 >>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:49:26 -0400
 >>Subject: UFO Duck Hunting!

 >I haven't seen any video from Woods but from looking at the
 >frame grabs on that page I would bet most are just balloons. The
 >"Amorphous Craft" usually turns out to be 4+ balloons tied
 >together and revolving around each other. It gives you the
 >appearance of a multi colored blob in the sky.

If Mr. Woods is in contact with you as you claim (?) I'm sure he
will be very happy to read your statement about his videos.


That's all,

Santiago Yturria







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                            Re: IFOs 101 - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:32:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:26:33 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 - Groff


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500
 >Subject: IFOs 101

 >Dear Errol and List:

 >POP QUIZ!

 >Go to:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

 >and tell me what the object is I filmed on May 5, 2003.

Without actually seeing the video it looks like another out-of-
focus milar balloon to me. Even if this were a real UFO I
wouldn't lend any credence to these VidCaps.


Terry Groff
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 18

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:29:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:16:20 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 18


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

       UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 18
May 7, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor
E-mail: Masinaigan@aol.com

http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/

SURPRISE APPEARANCE BY
SADDAM STARTLES IRAQIS

       "Warplanes roared overhead.  Haze and smoke rose from
the city's edges as U.S. troops battled their way in."
       "But for 30 minutes on (Wednesday) April 9 (2003),
some people from Baghdad's al-Azamiyah neighborhood said
they were riveted by another sight: a visit from Saddam
Hussein."
       "'It was Saddam for sure and whoever says it was his
double is a liar,' said Salah Abu Seif, 38, who said he
had seen Saddam several times previously."
       "Saddam waved to the crowd" of about 400 Iraqis "from
a green Mercedes, drove away, then returned to the (al-
Azamiyah) neighborhood.  The Iraqi leader stepped out of
his car to salute the hundreds of people who flocked to
see him."
       "He was accompanied by his son Qusay; his secretary
Abed Hamoud, and Defense Minister Sultan Hashem Ahmed; a
camera was recording the tour."
        The video of Saddam's appearance was aired on Abu
Dhabi TV on Friday, April 18, 2003.
       "Abu Dhabi TV's correspondent, Jaber Obeid, said the
person who handed the videotape to the network assured
them it was shot in Azamiyah on April 9."
       "'We always suspected, because of the many sightings
of Saddam Hussein, that somebody--somehow, somewhere--
would shoot a picture of him, would shoot a video,' anchor
Jasim al-Azz Azzawi told CNN.  "We went out of our way to
make sure that the tape would fall into our hands.'"
       "U.S. intelligence officials in Washington say they
cannot yet determine whether the man in the video was the
Iraqi leader nor when it was taped.  They also say they
don't know whether Saddam is alive or dead."
       The Saddam video "is the talk of everyone in
Baghdad," reported Ayesha al-Khatabi, a UFO Roundup Middle
East correspondent.  "But what is most puzzling is the
mysterious golden necklace Saddam was wearing when the
Azamiyah video was made.  Qusay was wearing one, as well.
Since Saddam is not known for wearing jewelry with his
uniforms, my sources in Iraq cannot understand why he
chose to wear it that day."
       Fellow correspondent Mohammed Daud al-Hayyat has a
theory that the golden necklaces worn by Saddam and his
son Qusay are protective devices given to them by the
reputed Zarzi aliens.
(Editor's Note:  According to an urban legend, a UFO
crashed in Iraq either during 1991 or 1998.  Saddam
granted the surviving aliens sanctuary, allowing them to
live in either an underground base at Zarzi or at the
centuries-old citadel at Qalaat-e-Julundi in the As-Zab
as-Saghir (Little Zab) river valley in northern Iraq.)
       "People say that when they wear these necklaces,
Saddam and Qusay have only to clasp hands, and the circle
of light will appear," Mohammed explained,  "The alien
vortex will instantly transport them to safety.  In this
manner, they can create the circle without the Zarzi
aliens being present."
       Two days after Saddam's appearance, "on April 11
(2003)," al-Azamiyah "was the site of a firefight between
Iraqis holed up in a mosque and U.S. Marines hunting for
leaders of Saddam's regime."
       Ayesha noted that "al-Azamiyah is primarily a
neighborhood of Sunni Muslims, so Saddam Hussein knew he
would be among friends when he appeared there."
       Also on Wednesday, April 9, 2003, according to
ufologist Jose Escamilla, a cylindrical UFO was seen
dodging American anti-aircraft bursts while flying over
Baghdad.
       "I found a rod (cylindrical UFO) that zipped through
anti-aircraft explosions over the city," Escamilla
reported, "And this rod flew effortlessly and was not hit
nor affected by the explosions in the air.  Clear shot and
it was moving very fast."
       Ayesha speculated that this "may have been the UFO
that brought Saddam Hussein to al-Azamiyah earlier.  The
Escamilla video may actually show Saddam and Qusay leaving
the city after their surprise appearance."
       On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, the ousted dictator
created another stir when "a London-based Arabic newspaper
published a handwritten letter purportedly signed by
Saddam Hussein that called on Iraqis to rise up against
American forces."
       Saddam "urged Iraqis to rebel against the 'infidel,
criminal, murderous and cowardly occupier,' promised that
people who collaborated with American-led forces would be
punished and predicted that 'the day of liberation and
victory will come.'"
       "Faxed to the offices of Al-Quds al-Arabi, the letter
was dated April 28, the date of Saddam's 66th birthday."
       "The newspaper's editor, Abdel Bari Atwan...said he
had seen Saddam's signature before and believed the one on
the letter was 'definitely' his."
       However, "U.S. officials were skeptical about the
authenticity" of Saddam's letter and "are unsure whether
Saddam survived two bombings that targeted buildings where
he was believed to be, one at the outset of the war and
one at the closing days."
       President George W. Bush, "speaking Sunday (April 20,
2003) at Fort Hood in Texas, said that if Saddam was
alive, 'I would suggest he not pop his head up.'"
       "In the last week, Iraqis say they have seen Saddam
emerging from an underground tunnel in his hometown of
Tikrit, riding in a taxi in the southern city of Basra and
living in a former Sheraton Hotel in Baghdad."
       "'There have been more sightings of Saddam Hussein
than of Elvis,' Rick Wiles, editor of American Freedom
News, said."
       "Opinion is equally divided.  Some people say Saddam
is at Zarzi with the aliens," Mohammed Daud al-Hayyat
added, "Others say he is at the underground base at al-
Ouja, two kilometers (1.2 miles) north of Tikrit.  The
latest rumor is that Saddam will shortly address the
people of Iraq from an alien base on the moon!  They say
this will happen in four or five days."  (See the
newspapers USA Today for April 21, 2003, "Fear of Saddam
and his thugs lingers," page 4A; the Providence, R.I.
Journal for April 20, 2003, "Residents say Saddam was seen
after bombing," page 1; the Boston, Mass. Herald for April
21, 2003, "Saddam: A narrow escape?" page 7; the
Attleboro, Mass. Sun-Chronicle for April 21, 2003,
"Report: Saddam remains in Iraq," page 20; the New York
Daily News for April 19, 2003, "Two tapes of Saddam on
Arab TV," page 9; the Pawtucket, R.I. Times for April 19,
2003, "Saddam gone, but provocative footage surfaces,"
page B1; the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for May 1, 2003,
"Arabic paper says it has letter from Saddam," page 9A;
and USA Today for May 1, 2003, "Purported Saddam letter
questioned," page 10A.  Many thanks to Ayesha al-Khatabi,
Robert Fischer, Steve Wilson Sr., Mohammed Daud al-Hayyat,
Jim Hickman, Jose Escamilla, Rick Wiles and others for
these Saddam updates.)


UFOs ARE ACTIVE IN
EASTERN BRAZIL

       During the evening hours of Tuesday, April 22, 2003,
Carlos Magno was outside at his home in Sao Mateus, a
small city in the north of Espiritu Santo state in eastern
Brazil.  He saw a formation of bright lights approaching
from the west, "which halted and hovered, then returned in
the same direction from which they came.  Astronomers said
they were 'meteors.'"
       A few hours earlier, in Santana da Boa Vista, in the
state of Rio Grande do Sul, eyewitness Joao Arapecido "saw
a daylight disk hovering over the Cerra do Cantareira
(hill)."
       The same afternoon, at Taquaritinga, in the state of
Sao Paulo, "a high school teacher saw an object which
appeared to be a silvery flying disc.  This object made a
series of zigzagging motions as it flew across the blue
sky."  (Muito obrigado a Jonas Marcelo A. Coelho do Grupo
LEONI por esos casos.)


UFOs SIGHTED BY MANY
IN CALIFORNIA

       On Saturday, April 19, 2003, eyewitness Brenda and
her family were camping out in a wooded area off Rasor
Road in Baker, California (population 1,030), located
about 180 miles (288 kilometers) east-northeast of Los
Angeles, when they spotted a UFO.
       "I was sitting down at the campfire, facing the west,
when I noticed a bright light moving in my direction.  It
waited and, spiralling, going back and forth, from side to
side, it continued on.  It was almost like a radio-
controlled object or a satellite.  It was moving just too
much in the 30 minutes that I watched it with three other
people at the campfire."
       Soon other objects joined the first, Brenda added,
"They were all hovering and appeared to be big/bright
stars, yet they all had red/green lights flashing towards
the top rear of them.  The objects moved in my direction,
then waited.  There was no noise from any of them, but
they just seemed to bounce around" at speeds "which were
too fast for any helicopter or plane."
       The first UFO "vanished behind the sand ridge" in the
Devil's Playground region of the Mojave National Preserve,
"where an old abandoned house was.  It turned itself off,
not to be seen again.  Shortly thereafter, the other two
objects seemed to have disappeared.  The formation of
these objects seemed to have been in a half-circular
position with some equal distance between them."
       "This is the first time I have ever seen anything
like this," she added, "in the five years we've been going
camping."
       On Saturday, April 26, 2003, Daniel M. was walking
home in Costa Mesa, California (population 108,724), about
110 miles (166 kilometers) southeast of Los Angeles when
he spied a UFO.
       "My wife and I were walking home in Costa Mesa," he
reported, "When we arrived there, I noticed three lights
in the sky.  They were either very tiny or very far away.
They seemed very high up in altitude.  Then they had moved
to a different pattern."
       One UFO moved a little closer to him, he added.  "I
called out my wife's parents to see the sight, which they
did.  The only color which we could see was that of the
lights.  And when they got farther away, they seemed to
resemble stars in the sky.  An indication to me that they
were very high up in altitude."  (Email Form Reports)


ANOTHER BLUE UFO BUZZES
SANDIA PEAK, NEW MEXICO

       On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 2:30 a.m., trucker
Steve Goldman was driving on Interstate Highway I-40
through Moriarty, New Mexico (population 1,765), located
34 miles (55 kilometers) east of Albuquerque, when he
noticed a strange blue flying object passing overhead.
       "As I approached Moriarty from the east on I-40, the
object zipped into view in my front windshield," Steve
reported, "It was a bright, light blue, flourescent color,
lozenge-shaped, and it was descending at a 15-degree angle
from the horizon.  It appeared to be descending after
passing over Sandia Peak."
       "The craft was oriented parallel to the horizon, but
it was descending.  It was about the size of a hot dog
(large sausage--J.T.) held at arm's length, so it was
quite close.  When it passed about 1,000 feet (300 meters)
overhead, the front part of the craft flickered, then the
object 'turned off' and disappeared from view."
       This was Steve's second sighting of a blue UFO over
Sandia Peak in recent months.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  The Sandia Labs, the USA's top-secret
nuclear reseach facilities, are located in this area.)


TWO WHITE UFOs ARE SEEN
OVER ROWLETT, TEXAS

       On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 9:45 p.m., Laurie M.
was outdoors at her home in Rowlett, Texas (population
44,503), located on Lake Ray Hubbard 15 miles (25
kilometers) northeast of Dallas, when she sighted some
strange lights in the sky.
       "Two white lighted objects were going round and round
in circles as if they were playing tag," Laurie reported,
"At times, one would pass the other.  This went on for
approximately 20 minutes.  Their speed was incredible, and
these were perfectly consistent circles."
       "The white lights were above the clouds, with an
occasional break in the clouds where you could see the
object itself.  The two UFOs departed to the west.  Then
my husband called a local television station" to report
the sighting.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Comment:  And look who else was in Texas at the
time of the sighting in Rowlett!)


MYSTERIOUS ROUNDUP VAN
APPEARS IN EASTERN TEXAS

       The mysterious white van, which bears the website
address for UFO Roundup, put in a surprise appearance in
eastern Texas at the same time two UFOs were seen over
Rowlett, near Dallas.
       The ultra-modern white van, which is not owned by
either UFO Roundup or UFOINFO, has been seen on several
occasions since early 1999.  Appearances of the vehicle
are rare, and its owners and operators are unknown.  The
vehicle is distinctive because of its dark upholstered
interior, its dashboard full of high-tech electronic
equipment and its small dish antennas sprouting from the
roof.
       The van was last seen in southern Arizona last year.
Its previous appearances have been in the USA's states of
Texas, Georgia, North Carolina, California, Mississippi,
Tennessee, Michigan and Arizona.
       On Saturday, May 3, 2003, Dorothy Hamilton contacted
UFOINFO webmaster John Hayes and reported, "I live in
Winnie, Texas and, for the past few days, I've seen a big
van with satellite (dishes) and (electronic) equipment.  I
had just returned from a trip to the UFO Museum in
Roswell, New Mexico."
       "I'm very interested to know why they are here, and
if they might need anything while in town.  I own a
restaurant just south of Winnie (population 2,914) called
Skip's Outrageous Bar and Grille.  They can come in and
check out our UFO signs and posters and fill us in."
       Commenting on the sighting, UFO Roundup editor Joseph
Trainor said, "I can categorically state that neither John
Hayes nor I have been in Texas recently.  That is not our
white van.  I have no idea who it belongs to or why it
carries our website address."
       Dorothy added that the van "had Georgia license
plates" and had the logo http://ufoinfo.com/roundup in
black letters.
       "If any of our USA readers spot the mysterious white
van, please write down the license number and make a note
of which state issued the license plates," Trainor added,
"Then please email us at Masinaigan@aol.com.  This van has
been wandering around the USA for almost five years now.
We would really like to get to the bottom of this
mystery."  (Many thanks to John Hayes for this report.)
(Note: Since writing to Joe I have had another reply from
Dorothy and she states that the van is gray not white -
John Hayes.)


UFOs SIGHTED IN WISCONSIN

       On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 10 p.m., three
friends camping outdoors in Gleason, Wisconsin, "sitting
around a campfire in the middle of 6,000 acres of
wilderness," spotted a UFO.
       "One of my friends was looking around for shooting
stars when he yelled, 'Did you see that!?'"
       "We both turned and looked in the same direction he
was and almost immediately (we) saw what he had just seen.
It was a flash of greenish white light that rolled up from
the bottom (horizon) of the southern sky about as wide as
our vision and continued to almost above our heads."
       "All three of us had never seen anything like this,
and half-expected to hear a nuclear-type explosion
somewhere in the world in that direction.  It was
completely silent, occurred two times and (the duration
was) approximately two seconds long in between."
       The same evening, "at 10:35 p.m., in Oshkosh,
Wisconsin (population 62,916), a city located 86 miles
(137 kilometers) north-northwest of Milwaukee, the male
witness reported, "I was taking my dogs outside, and I
always look up in the sky.  I saw a dimly-lit, diamond-
shaped object above my head and a little to the south.  It
looked gray but dimly lit.  It was moving at an incredible
speed, much faster than a jet.  It took only five seconds
from the time I first saw it to reach the eastern horizon
and out of sight.  There was no noise and no flashing
lights of any kind.  The sky was clear.  It moved in a
straight line at great speed.  If you held a dime (a USA
10-cent coin--J.T.) at arm's length, it would kind of fit
in the middle of it, with the diamond points touching the
edges."  (Many thanks to John and Jenny Hoppe of UFO
Wisconsin for these reports.)


WEIRD OBJECTS FALL FROM
THE SKY IN GUATEMALA

       "A strange object that fell out of the sky was a
cause for alarm among residents of the barrio Canton
(neighborhood) in Mataescuintla" in southern Guatemala.
       "The odd device, which resembled an axle wrapped in
nylon, fell from the sky onto a coffee plantation
belonging to Sra. Luvia Cruz Toledo, setting some of her
coffee bushes on fire."
       "A child near the site witnessed the fall and saw it
leave a hole among the tree branches.  After hitting the
ground, it rolled some 20 meters (66 feet).  Concerned
residents notified the authorities."
       "Members of the Explosive Brigade of (Guatemala's)
Policia Nacional Civil (PNC) reached the area and
carefully moved the artifact to dismantle it and analyze
it."
       "Elsewhere in Guatemala, as of this morning (Monday,
April 28, 2003), no scientific analysis has been performed
on the satellite fragment that fell during the early hours
of Sunday (April 27, 2003) in barrio El Calvario
(neighborhood)" in the small city of Chiquimulilla in
Santa Rosa province, "causing widespread alarm during the
past 24 hours."
       "What is known about this object is contained in a
police report confirming that it is not explosive, just a
piece of space junk weighing approximately 30 pounds,
having the length and diameter of what could be a metal
axle.  There is still no scientific analysis that is
necessary in this case to determine the presence of
radioactive waste harmful to those who have come into
contact with it."
       "Authorities in Guatemala believe both fragments are
from the Italian satellite Beppo SIX, which has been in
orbit since 1996" conducting X-ray astronomy experiments.
       "Authorities said they are taking a wait-and-see
approach with the object, since it could be either as
harmless as a cotton ball or, on the contrary, more
hazardous than any explosive, although the consequences
would be different.  For this reason, they are waiting for
a NASA scientist to come and inspect the artifact to see
if it is necessary to isolate it to avoid any possible
contamination."
       Mataescuintla and Chiquimulilla are, respectively, 75
kilometers (45 miles) and 110 kilometers (66 miles) south
of Guatemala City, the national capital.  (See the
newspaper Prensa Libre de Guatemala for April 28, 2003,
"Strange artifact falls in Mataescuintla."  Muchas gracias
a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para eso articulo de
diario.)


STRANGE PORTENT OCCURS
IN NEW HAMPSHIRE

       The Old Man of the Mountain, the natural stone
profile that appears on everything in" the USA's state of
"New Hampshire from the road signs to the state quarter
(25-cent coin--J.T.), fell from its mountainside, leaving
nothing recognizable in the cliff face Saturday," May 3,
2003.
       "Don Bliss, the state's director of emergency
management, said there were no injuries when the stone
fell sometime Friday night," May 2, 2003, "or Saturday"
morning.
       "It wasn't immediately clear what caused the fall,
but Amy Bahr, president of the Franconia, N.H. Heritage
Museum, said she has long been aware that the natural
profile could slide."
       "'I knew it would go sometime.  I just didn't think
it would happen in my lifetime,' she said."
       "The ledges that made up the profile were perched
above a slope covered with other fallen granite, and for
years many feared it would join the pile."
       "Niels Nielsen, a state highway worker who died in
2001, was the profile's official caretaker from 1960 until
a few years ago, when he passed the job on to his son.
Over the years, the two tried to secure the ledges with
cables and epoxy."
       "Nielsen told an interviewer in 1999 he thought the
Old Man profile would outlive him by many years."
       "'My gut feeling is that any baby that's born on this
date, today, will not see the Old Man come down,' he had
said."
       "The profile, about 40 feet (12 meters) high and 25
feet (7 meters) wide was one of the most photographed
sites in the state and was considered New Hampshire's
state symbol."
       "It was in Franconia State Park, about 70 miles (112
kilometers) north of Concord (New Hampshire's state
capital--J.T.) and to the west of Interstate (Highway) 93,
about 1,200 feet (360 meters) above Profile Lake."
       "'You don't think about it much, but it's what
everybody comes to see, it's our thing.  And now it's
gone,' said Eric Mueller, who works at the Franconia
Hardware Store."
       "State Parks official Mike Pelchat said heavy rains,
high winds and freezing temperatures brought it down.  'We
always thought it was the hand of God holding him up, and
he let go,' Pelchat said."
       "Daniel Webster, a 19th Century New Hampshire
statesman, once wrote of the Old Man of the Mountain: 'In
the mountains of New Hampshire, God Almighty has hung out
a sign to show that there He makes men.'"
       Fans of science fiction writer Howard Phillips
Lovecraft (1890-1937) have pointed out similarities
between the giant granite profile in New Hampshire and a
silhouette profile of Lovecraft done in the 1920s.
(Editor's Comment:  Which certainly makes the giant
granite feature's sudden disappearance even stranger.)
       "It is generally believed that the first white men to
see it were Francis Whitcomb and Luke Brooks, who were
surveying a road through the Franconia Notch in 1805.
While washing their hands in the lake, they are said to
have looked up, and in amazement discovered the face."
       According to Pennacook Indian legends, during the
"Water-Sun" or previous world-age, a powaw (spiritual
advisor, formerly called a "medicine man"--J.T.) and his
wife were warned by the One Above that Earth was about to
be destroyed by a great flood.  The couple fled to the top
of nearby Mount Lafayette, with the wife's pet rabbit.
For weeks they lived on the mountaintop.  After the
floodwaters subsided,  they let the rabbit loose.  When it
failed to return, they descended from the mountain.  The
powaw asked the One Above if ever again there would be
another Deluge.
       By way of reply, thick clouds covered the
mountaintop, and thunder reverberated across Profile Lake.
When the clouds lifted, the couple saw the image of the
One Above, "that which the white man calls the Old Man of
the Mountain" chiseled into the granite of the cliff.
      "So long as my face looks upon the land, there will
not be another flood," the One Above told them.  (See the
Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for May 4, 2003, "New Hampshire
loses face as fabled Old Man takes a spill," page 13A.
Also USA Today for May 5, 2003, "'Old Man' tumbles from
mountain in N.H.," page 3A.)


  From the UFO Files...

1958: A CASE OF TIME TRAVEL
            IN MONTANA

       In Montana's far north, just below the USA-Canada
border and wedged between the Bearpaw Mountains and the
Rockies, lies the Milk River valley, festooned with
tumbleweeds, wild raspberries and yellow-flowered wild
mustard.  Tourists passing through on Montana Highway 29
think of it as a desolate place, shuddering at the eerie
howl of the coyotes at night.
       Yet, to the Siksikawa-Pikuni indigenous people (also
known as Blackfeet Indians--J.T.), the valley is a sacred
place.  Mainly because it's the site of Writing On Stone
State Park, one of the true places of mystery in the USA's
West.
       Most pictographs in the USA can be read by indigenous
peoples ranging from the Arapaho to the Zuni.  And, with a
little coaching, it's not too hard a skill to master.
Your editor learned how to read a buffalo-skin from a
Siksikawa-Pikuni tribal elder at the Blackfeet Indian
Reservation in Browning, Montana during the summer of
1989.
       However, the weird hieroglyphics at Writing on Stone,
north of  Whitlash, Montana, are something else again.  As
William Big Spring pointed out, "No one knows for sure
what the markings on the rocks mean.  In 1850, people were
trying to find out what these 'writings' represented.  The
Indians then said they had been done by the 'old' people
but no one could say if they were prophecies or records of
things that had already happened."
       "We started up to Writing on Stone one Sunday
afternoon, back in 1958," William Big Spring wrote, "It's
right on the border of the United States and Canada, near
the town of Aden (Alberta province, Canada) on Milk
River."
       "It was a really nice day, and we reached Writing on
Stone just as it turned dusk--that time of day when it's
not daylight and it's not dark.  I got out of the car to
go look at the writings on the rocks.  As I went through,
I was disappointed that so many of them were ruined.  Most
were painted over or damaged so you couldn't make them
out."
       "All of a sudden, when I got to the end of the rocks
and looked down, I could see teepees set up on the flat.
I saw children running around, and everybody was happy."
       "It was as real as when you look at another person
next to you."
       Incredible as it may seem, William Big Spring had
literally stepped into the past.  By some unknown means,
he had travelled back a century to 1858, or perhaps even
earlier, to a time when European people were a rarity in
northern Montana and the nomadic Siksikawa-Pikuni tribal
life was in full flower.
       "I got such a strange feeling.  I slowly moved away.
The nape of my neck felt so strange.  I took a few more
steps backward.  Pretty soon I turned about.  I didn't
actually run back to the car, but I got there as quickly
as I could."
       "I don't know what they were, but I saw them.  I told
myself then and there I'd never return at that time of day
(dusk) again."
       "I never told anybody of this until two years later
(1960) when I told my wife."
(See the book Sta-ai-tsi-nix-sin Ghost Stories, edited by
Conrad La Fromboise, Blackfeet Heritage Program, Browning,
Montana, 1979, pages 14 and 15.)
(Editor's Note:  This "time warp" phenomenon is rare but
not unknown in Forteana, the classic case being the two
British women and their "Versailles adventure" in the
summer of 1901.)


       Your editor had a chance to see X-2: The X-Men United
a couple of days ago.  In terms of pacing, action,
character and dialogue, I thought it was far superior to
Daredevil.  And I liked Daredevil!  But I was little
disturbed by some of the scenes in X-2.  Such as
Rumsfeld's nitwit deputy, Dr. William Stryker, launching a
full-scale military assault on Salem Center, N.Y. and an
American agent in black BDUs shooting an eight-year-old
boy.  Then came the scene in which uniformed officers of
the Boston, Mass. police department have the X-Men
surrounded at Bobby Drake's house, and one officer shoots
Wolverine in the head.  Tayaa!  I'm just glad I don't have
to explain to the watch commander...to say nothing of
Internal Affairs!...why I drew my weapon and blew away a
suspect who was not resisting arrest or making any
threatening moves against fellow officers.
       Two weeks ago, in real life, police in southern
California managed to arrest Scott Peterson without
shooting up half of Chula Vista.
      Whatever happened to due process, eh?  I guess it's
become a casualty of the "war on terrorism." Like Baghdad.


       Join us again next week for more UFO, Fortean and
paranormal news, brought to you by "the paper that goes
home--UFO Roundup."  See you in seven days!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news stories from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.


E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and
UFO Sightings Italia.
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 8

                           Huge Contrail Sighting

From: Scott Caput <scaput@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:37:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:18:28 -0400
Subject: Huge Contrail Sighting


Hello List,

Today, in Miami Florida at approximately 5:00pm EST, I observed
a large contrail in the sky. The trail stretched from horizon to
horizon (NW to SE). It was very dense and white. I noticed too
late to see it being created, but it was huge! This was by far,
the thickest trail I have seen here to date. Did anyone else
observe it? Any thoughts on a possible cause?


Scott Caput







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 8

                            Re: IFOs 101 - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:56:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:21:27 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 - McCoy


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500
 >Subject: IFOs 101


 >I'd like to teach a short course in - IFOs 101 - for UFO
 >investigators, researchers and interested parties.

 >If you would like to learn more about IFOs, please take your
 >seat and pay attention.

 >POP QUIZ!

 >Go to:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

 >and tell me what the object is I filmed on May 5, 2003.

 >Class dismissed, see you tomorrow. Bring apples! ;>


Hello, all, Amy.

Ah, its a Mylar balloon, shape either like a NASCAR race car, or
possibly (this being southern oregon and I have seen these,) a
sheep-shaped balloon.


GT McCoy
Southern Oregon Coast- Its a lot like New Zealand here.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 8

                            Re: IFOs 101 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:27:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:24:16 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 - Hatch


 >From: Scott C. Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:41:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500
 >>Subject: IFOs 101

 >>POP QUIZ!

 >>Go to:

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

 >>and tell me what the object is I filmed on May 5, 2003.

 >>Class dismissed, see you tomorrow. Bring apples! ;>

 >That would most definitely be a flying saucer.


Hello Amy, Scott:

My first guess would be a blimp. Second would be some balloon,
lighter than air in either case.

I once saw a blimp making passes over Stanford Stadium in
California from an apartment I rented in those days. I waited
until it was turned to just the right angle, identifying
markings and protrusions obscured, then took a snapshot from a
cheap 35mm camera. It came out looking like a really great UFO.

Anybody else have a wild guess?


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   May > May 8

                     What Are They & What Do They Want?

From: Alain Schmitt <schmitt.alain2@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Thu,  8 May 2003 08:56:20 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:34:11 -0400
Subject: What Are They & What Do They Want?


Hello,

I'm the author of a very big website. I will not give the
address here because I'm not on the List to make any
advertisement. I don't need it.

What make me tired with Ufology is this kind of funny habit to
collect UFO sightings or films or whatever else. In fact, I feel
it leads us nowhere.

For me, it is a fact that there is extraterrestrials on
earth. Of course, it is only my experience but I don't want to
talk about this.

What I hope from the List is to have any contact with people who
thinks they know what UFOs are, and what they want. Of course,
I'm not asking you for proof. I just wish to talk and read your
opinions or your experiences.

I have a lot of knowledge about this but I'm always curious to
go further. It is by listening and comparing that we can go
nearer of the truth. Maybe some of you also have an opinion on
the meaning of the crop circles. Please let me know.

You can answer on the List or contact me via personal E-mail.
It depends of what you want to talk and how far you want to go.

Before I close, you should know that I'm blind and use a special
computer to write and read, which means that I cannot receive
any attachments. Please take note of this before answering.
Thank you very much.

If you respond, would it be possible to put some of our
exchanges on my site which is in French and English?

Thank you very much for helping in any way.


Alain







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 8

                          FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 03:20:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:41:07 -0400
Subject: FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151


From: ParadigmRG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:29:51 EDT
Subject: FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151
To: osfoia@nbc.gov


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Subject: FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151 (Re: Fee-Waiver Request of
Larry W. Bryant) From: ParadigmRG@aol.com

Date: Wed, May 7, 2003
To:   osfoia@nbc.gov
Cc:   overtci@cavtel.net

TO: Assistant Secretary for FIA Appeals
U. S. Department of the Interior
Washington, DC 20240

FROM: Stephen Bassett
Executive Director
Paradigm Research Group
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee

DATE: May 7, 2003

Larry Bryant has been filing UFO related FOIA requests since the
law was passed in 1968. His work is critical to the disclosure
movement and the many researchers and activists who utilize the
information he obtains.

I have been a political activist pursuing the end to the
government imposed UFO truth embargo for 8 years. I am fully
aware of Larry's work and receive his email updates frequently.
His work is disseminated all over the United States. He is one
of the leading activists in the field.

I hereby submit this statement in support of his appeal
No. 2003-151 (April 20, 2003).

Regards,
Stephen Bassett
______________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_______________________________________________________

"There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish, if you are
willing to give away the credit."
_______________________________________________________

"Intellectual passion is found at the intersection
  of fact and implication."







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   May > May 8

                 Conference on Security Technology & Privacy

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 03:48:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:58:18 -0400
Subject: Conference on Security Technology & Privacy


Follow-up on the Conference on Security, Technology, and Privacy
4/24-25/03

To: <pshane@andrew.CMU.edu>
Subject: Follow-up on the Conference on Security, Technology,
          and Privacy (4/24--25/03)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:27:42 -0400


TO: Prof. Peter Shane
Director, Carnegie Mellon University's Institute for the Study of
Information Technology and Society
Pittsburgh, PA 15213

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
3518 Martha Custis Drive
Alexandria, VA 22302
(overtci@cavtel.net)

DATE: May 3, 2003

Please forgive my tardiness in responding to your post-
conference invitation to submit some feedback on the scope and
content of that event held last month at the Georgetown
University Law Center in Washington.

Besides commending your leadership, guidance, and input for this
gathering, I do have one item of discussion for the record:

Some years ago, when I filed suit against the F.B.I. FOIA
gatekeepers to free-up the censored portion of an F.B.I. memo
dated March 22, 1950 (pertaining to the USAF recovery of three
crash-landed "flying saucers" and their crews), I encountered
stiff resistance via the Bureau's invoking of the Act's
exemption No. (b)(6) (as regards guarding against "a clearly
unwarranted invasion of personal privacy," even though the local
law-enforcement "Deep Throat" source probably had died by the
time of my FOIA request).

Regardless, my plea for mandatory disclosure contended that a
court-ordered disclosure would be a WARRANTED invasion, inasmuch
as it would be justified by the public's overriding interest in
knowing all the details about such an historic event as the
visitation and (accidental?) destruction of occupied hardware
from elsewhere. But the court sided with the Justice
Department's strict reliance on the exemption. Would the outcome
have been different had I not pursued the case pro se?

At any rate, the case never had a chance to fully test the
theory I was espousing on behalf of sacrificing certain personal
privacy of a government employee (i.e., his name) toward
advancing the public's right-to-know and need-for that redacted
datum.

If there still exists no case law establishing that theory as a
practical asset for requesterdom, I would hope that you and/or
some of your colleagues will keep that void in mind as a
prospective discussion point for any follow-up conferences.

Thank you again for your lively, inspirational role in planning
and conducting this sorely needed (and highly appreciated)
conference. And please feel free to post my comment upon your
home website and the site of
http://www.securityandprivacyconference.com .


LARRY W. BRYANT
Director, Washington, D.C., Office of
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy







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                     Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:32:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:54:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - McCoy


 >From: Scott Caput <scaput@bellsouth.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:37:03 -0400
 >Subject: Huge Contrail Sighting

 >Today, in Miami Florida at approximately 5:00pm EST, I observed
 >a large contrail in the sky. The trail stretched from horizon to
 >horizon (NW to SE). It was very dense and white. I noticed too
 >late to see it being created, but it was huge! This was by far,
 >the thickest trail I have seen here to date. Did anyone else
 >observe it? Any thoughts on a possible cause?


I would likely say it was a B-52, probably going home to
Barksdale, La. AFB. maybe more than one in close formation, from
possibly Diego Garcia.

The B-52 once a common sight, puts out a huge contrail. (170 ft.
approx. wings you know) I'm old enough to remember the B-36
Peacemaker, (and the first run of Stratigic Air Command with
Jimmy Stewart really flying the B-36 and the B-47) now that one
put out both noise and smoke.


GT McCoy







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                             Re: IFOs 101 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:15:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:57:21 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 - Hall


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500
 >Subject: IFOs 101

 >Dear Errol and List:

 >I'd like to teach a short course in - IFOs 101 - for UFO
 >investigators, researchers and interested parties.

 >If you would like to learn more about IFOs, please take your
 >seat and pay attention.

 >POP QUIZ!

 >Go to:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

 >and tell me what the object is I filmed on May 5, 2003.

 >Class dismissed, see you tomorrow. Bring apples! ;>


Probably not an interplanetary/interdimensional space ship. But
all seriousness aside, you would need to have eyewitness
testimony about how the object moved (or didn't), how it first
came into view, luminosty changes, how it disappeared, etc., in
order to interpret the photos.


  - Dick









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                     Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:25:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 21:00:37 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update - King


 >From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:27:13 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:53:06 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:23:41 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>>From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:44:14 +0000
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting Update

 >>>So where did you get these words?

 >>From Mr Woods himself. I have heard 'things'.

 >In any case and referring to your initial post to this UFO Duck
 >Hunting thread I will quote your comment made in April 14.

 >>From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:54:54 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Duck Hunting!

 >>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:49:26 -0400
 >>>Subject: UFO Duck Hunting!

 >>I haven't seen any video from Woods but from looking at the
 >>frame grabs on that page I would bet most are just balloons. The
 >>"Amorphous Craft" usually turns out to be 4+ balloons tied
 >>together and revolving around each other. It gives you the
 >>appearance of a multi colored blob in the sky.

 >If Mr. Woods is in contact with you as you claim (?) I'm sure he
 >will be very happy to read your statement about his videos.

Yes, Mr. Wood did contact me because I'm skeptical of the images
I saw on Rense. We have conversed many, many times and I will
study his footage in the near future.

Mr. Yturria my skeptical words were upsetting to him. What he
really wants to know is why haven't you returned his video
footage he requested from you 7-9 months ago, yet 2 weeks ago
you were ready to hand it over to anyone on UFO UpDates?

Perhaps I'm wrong here but did you return Mr. Woods footage?

Correct me if I'm wrong, or don't have the story right. I'm just
trying to learn as much as I can about Mr. Woods and what's
going on.

Tom








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                   Re: Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:30:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 07:42:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Analysis Of N.M. Samples - Gehrman


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:59:30 -0400
 >Subject: Analysis Of N.M. Samples

 >The large, beautiful samples arrived yesterday and have now been
 >carefully examined with results that I hope will not cause you
 >to want to 'shoot the messenger'.

Ray,

The samples were sent to you for analysis. I don't have a
problem with your analysis. You've provided some excellent
information and a basis for discussion.

 >You were quite correct in
 >describing the material as "glass-like" (in appearance), but the
 >resemblance is superficial and that is where it ends.

Yes I knew that it wasn't glass but "glass-like" came closest to
describing the material.  The cameraman also mentioned that some
of the rocks around the craft were covered with glass-like
material.

 >material has been carefully examined under the very high quality
 >Bausch & Lomb binocular microscope I use in studying meteorite
 >thin sections, tektite glass, minerals, and micro-fossils, and
 >it is definitely not a glass or silicate melt of any kind.

I agree that it is not glass. I think we need to discuss
your "silicate melt" determination.

 >Instead it is a water-deposited microcrystalline coating.

I don't have a problem with the material being microcrystalline;
(microcrystalline means that the crystals are only able to be seen
with a microscope, and not obvious:macrocrystalline.)
But I'm unable to see how this material could be water deposited.

 >(accumulative growth of botryoidal and sub-botryoidal type)

This means that some of the material looks like small bunches of
grapes. Some of the material does show these formations while
other samples do not display this characteristic.

 >silica dioxide that had accumulated within and upon fissures in
 >the parent rock.

It's not just in fissures or around fissures but on all varities
of rock surfaces, including the cliffs, and the desert rocks
scattered on the sand.

Not in a single case does the agate-material extend below the
sand line. In other words, if there is a rock buried in the sand
and that rock is three feet tall but two feet are beneath the
sand, only the exposed one foot of rock will show the agate-like
material.

 >It is, in fact, chalcedony or agate, but definitely not glass, and it
 >forms in relatively cool temperatures, NOT under great heat.

Do you have examples of the chalcedony you say this is. I know
it looks very much like agate, but there is a noticeable
difference when you put samples side by side as I have done. For
the listers who may not understand: "chalcedony is a catch all
term that includes many well known varieties of
cryptocrystalline quartz gemstones. They are found in all 50
States, in many colors and color combinations, and in
sedimentary, igneous, and metamorphic rocks. Chalcedony includes
carnelian, sard, plasma, prase, bloodstone, onyx, sardonyx,
chrysoprase, thundereggs, agate, flint, chert, jasper, petrified
wood, and petrified dinosaur bone just to name a few of the
better known varieties".)

 >The hardness is 7 on Mohs'
 >scale. The specific gravity of the material is about 2.6.

Now this is very interesting. I didn't have this information
and it allows us to eliminate calcite,commonly found
in association with igneous rocks.
And this definitely puts the samples in the agate class.

 >You mention physicists in Michigan, but unless they have been
 >involved in mineralogy, petrology, or the related field of
 >meteoritics (the study of meteorites), there is little in the
 >background of most physicists that should prepare such a person
 >to analyze this material, excepting to notice that the material
 >(under high magnification) refracts light as crystal instead of
 >as glass.

I have no idea what their backgrounds are or what methods they
are using to analyze the samples. I don't know their names;
everything was arranged through a third party.


 >In short, there is absolutely nothing that I could find in the
 >samples that suggest the material was subjected to temperatures
 >of a type that would melt the parent rock, and much to indicate
 >otherwise.

I never stated that I thought the samples were the melted rock.
I didn't think they were, but I didn't know for sure. On my
second visit to the site, my brother pointed out that the
material seemed to be splashed or thrown on the rock surfaces.

 >You see, also, if the chalcedony had, itself, been
 >melted, it would not still posses the microcrystalline structure
 >which it so clearly displays, ubiquitously, under the
 >microscope.

I don't know how to explain this because the site seems to
indicate that the material was in some plasma or semi-liquid
form when it hit the rocks. There are splatters of the material
everywhere across the site. It's not applied in any uniform
pattern.

 >As to the area shown in the photo that you suggest might have
 >been the impact area, it looks more like the remains of an
 >abandoned, small-scale mining operation.

I examined this area carefully and it is not an abandoned mining
operation. There's just a pile of rocks that have fallen from
the cliff face, and a burned area, and the agate-like material.
There has been much small scale digging and other forms of
prospecting in the entire area and along the canyon walls for
miles in both directions, but there's no sign of anything like
that at this specific site.

 >If the material had turned out to be vitrified rock (rock heated
 >until it had turned to glass), I was thinking about heading out
 >to New Mexico to have a closer look, but in the absence of
 >vitrified rock, and in the seeming absence of any other
 >evidence, such a trip is unwarranted.

I think that's a mistake; but your call. If you have the time
and money, and want an adventure, you should take a look.
You'll be surprised and pleased.

 >I do not think the broken
 >and burned tree shown in one of the photos should be taken as
 >evidence of a UFO crash.

That's not the only evidence; there's much more that photos
can't show properly.

 >I certainly wish to thank Ed Gehrman for his generous and fair-
 >minded offer and provision of the photos and material samples
 >for examination, and for in that way, his helping us to learn
 >that we must look into other things or at other places for
 >evidence of a crash of a UFO.

I don't think this discussion is over, just yet.


Ed







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                 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:01:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 07:52:12 -0400
Subject: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?


Hi -

Recalling John Velez' concern about 23,000 _classified_ photos
taken under the Clementine project of the back side of the
moon.....

Can anyone explain why any photos of the surface of other worlds
should be classified? Particularly if NASA's mission is
ostensibly the exploration of space, rather than military
operations?


Eleanor White








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                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 06:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 10:03:15 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:39:09 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>Ray Stanford writes an excellent analysis re. the rock specimens
 >>provided by Ed Gehrman, found here:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m06-016.shtml

 >Mac,

 >I hope this doesn't keep you from having your samples analyzed
 >as you said you would. The purpose for sending out multiple
 >samples was to get several opinions.

Absolutely. I appreciate Stanford's analysis but will pursue as
many "blind" independent opinions as I can, which I will report
here.


=====
 >Mac Tonnies
macbot@yahoo.com

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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                   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:58:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 10:59:55 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stevenson


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:39:09 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>Ray Stanford writes an excellent analysis re. the rock specimens
 >>provided by Ed Gehrman, found here:

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m06-016.shtml

<snip>

 >>3.) Exactly (or roughly) how localized is the glass-like
 >>material and what might account for this?

 >This material is ONLY found in an area about the size of three
 >football fields and the lines of demarcation are very clear.
 >There is nothing else to distinguish one area of this desert
 >from the other except for the burned vegetation and the agate
 >like material. I think this indicates that something very
 >unusual happened in this specific location and only this
 >location. Since the cameraman said a craft crashed in that
 >location and it was still very hot when he arrived, my
 >assumption is that the material came from or was a result of the
 >crashed craft.


Hi All

Not sure on my true facts, or if this is of any use in your
research of the crystals but they are said to be found where ET
activity and abductions take place.

It may be worthwhile for someone to compare these with those at:

http://www.abduct.com/aaer2/r9.htm

detail pictures:

http://www.abduct.com/aaer2/_r9fgb.htm
http://www.abduct.com/aaer2/_r9fgc.htm

I'm no expert on this but its just a thought.....

col







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                   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:51:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 15:53:06 -0400
Subject: Re:  New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford


 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>Ray Stanford writes an excellent analysis re. the rock specimens
 >>provided by Ed Gehrman, found here:

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m06-016.shtml

 >I hope this doesn't keep you from having your samples analyzed
 >as you said you would. The purpose for sending out multiple
 >samples was to get several opinions.

<snip>

O.K. Let me make something clear. My report was of an analysis
yielding very clear and unambiguous results. What I reported is
not an opinion but a fact, and had it been anything else, I
would clearly have stated so. Also, I would have been delighted
and excited to the 'Nth degree' had the material coating the
rocks have been glass or a mystery substance, but here is an
astonishing fact:

By telephone, I asked Ed Gehrman whether he had examined the
material with even as much as a 10-X loop. He asked me what I
meant by "a loop", and I explained. He responded with a clearly
truthful, "No, I haven't done that."

I say, "clearly truthful', because if he had done so, and if he
has even superficial close-up experience with rocks and
minerals, he would have known the stuff is definitely not truly
glass-like (his term) and that it is chalcedony.

I found it really incredible that he has circulated stories
about rocks at an alleged UFO crash site being coated with a
mysterious "glass-like" (again, his term) substance and that he
had not even looked closely at the substance with even an
inexpensive hand loop, before making such a report.

So, I will go a bit deeper than my initial report and add that
the coating on the rock shows, under the microscope - botton to
top through cross-section - several distinct crystalline growth-
deposition phases atop each other, and each of these distinct
layers reveals its own microcrystalline growth structure. The
hardness of these layers is 7 on Mohs, as I said before, and I
was able to readily and deeply scratch the hardened steel of a
pocket knife blade with the material coating the rocks. Further
tests indicate it is harder than four types of glass formed in
cosmic impacts, to which its hardness was compared by me in
tests: (1) Libyan desert glass, (2) moldavite, (3) S-E Asian
strewn field tektite, and, (4) Darwin glass.

During our phone conversation, Ed suggested that I might be
wrong in my identification of what coated the rock, suggesting
it might really be, "a polymer" formed in a crashing spaceship's
plasma. I told him that it is, unmistakably, chacedony, based on
luster, layering, crystalling growth layers, hardness, and its
imperviability to muriatic acid (28% hydrochloric acid) - one of
several other tests I performed.

When I inquired of Ed as to what type of polymer he was proposing would have
the aforementioned properties, he suggested a polymer composed of "proteins
from cobwebs" combined with unspecified atmospheric impurities, somehow
synthesized by the great heat of a spaceship's plasma!

I pointed out that plasmas are very hot and that cobweb readily burns. I
also pointed out that such speculation out of the context of reasonably
derived hard data is whole-cloth embroidery and not even valid hypothesis
formation.

 >The best reasons (there are several others but that would
 >involve delving into the history of the AA which I don't want to
 >do right now) are the following: (1)the cameraman's drawing of
 >the site that I sent you several days ago is exactly the way the
 >site is today, down to the glass-like material on rocks ...

Here we go again with the perpetuation of the myth of a glass-
like material! It is absolutely not glass like, and the surface
does not have a glassy luster, but has a diffuse, sub-vitreous
luster characteristic of the surface of 'raw' (unpolished)
chalcedony. Chalcedony is not, contrary to Ed's claim, a "catch-
all" term. It is a very specific thing, but comes in diverse
colors (depending on trace minerals) and can grow in very grape-
bunch like clusters or in quite flat layers (depending, in part,
upon the surface on which it forms), or in any number of shapes
between those two.

The material on those two rocks Ed sent me is absolutely not, to
repeat Ed's words, "glass like"!

Ed submitted a photo with an area circled that looks exactly
like a large (several feet wide) ancient natural rock cleavage
enhanced by a minor-scale prospecting-mining operation. The rock
outcropping was clearly not spread apart by a speed impact on
any kind, yet he labels it, "first impact site".

Such a statement is totally subjective and reveals wishful
thinking instead of objective investigation.

Another photo has a maybe 30-foot long, nondescript area circled
that is labeled, "crash site".

I see nothing but imagination to support such a claim.

Another photo is labeled "burned cottonwood tree", but nothing
on the tree's remains give the slightest suggestion to me that
anything extraordinary happened there.

While Ed is to be commended for seeking analysis of the
chalcedony of the rocks, might better have prevented myth
generation by simply taking a couple of the rocks to the
mineralogical section of a museum and asking someone with a
background in mineralogy or petrology what is on the surfaced of
the rock(s), without telling the person(s) involved anything
about an alleged UFO crash, and without announcing to this list
that strange evidence has been found at a possible UFO crash
site.

By the way, Ed told this list that the person he and his brother
consulted in New Mexico (Socorro) said he had no idea what the
stuff on the rock(s) could be:

 >...we took a sample to him for a superficial analysis.

 >He couldn't identify the material and was somewhat surprised
 >that he couldn't. He examined the strange material with a light
 >enhanced magnifying scope he had on his belt and just shook his
 >head: "I don't know what this".

Yet, on the phone Ed told me that the person in Socorro declared it to be a
type of calcite. Even if I somehow got Ed's account on the phone confused,
and Ed was referring to two different persons' comments, one might wonder
why the interpretation (albeit incorrect) that it was a form of calcite was
not noted in Ed's first account of this matter.

The aforementioned precaution of saying absolutely nothing about
the background of the sample(s) to a potential analyst is very
important for multiple reasons. I will later explain if anyone
needs an explanation. A mineralogist will certainly not think a
sample like the ones Ed provided me to be strange at all. It
would normally elicit no probing questions, anyhow, except maybe
an incredulous, "You don't recognize what this is!?", if the
researcher is the indignant type.

The real point of this little explicit discussion is the hope of
discouraging the proliferation of unfounded rumors of mysterious
UFO crash site evidence. Let us try our very best not to cloud
with rumor a category of inquiry already burdened and sometimes
made laughable by unfounded speculation and wishful thinking.

It burdens me to have to make comments like this, because Ed
seems a nice, intelligent, and very sincere student of UFO
phenomena. In this instance, however, I think he has been
overly zealous and unobjective (witness his notes on the photos
he sent me), and that private inquiry to a professional or
professionals in an appropriate field of study (and one who has
no knowledge of Ed's speculations about crash evidences) would
have been a far better route to pursue first.

The fact that Ed did not notice what he calls a 'glass-like'
appearance to the parts of rocks that were within the topsoil
means absolutely nothing in the absence of a report by him of
just how many pieces he lifted to check for that, and without an
unequivocal statement that each examined piece was washed
carefully before examination, because a host of things about
soil can completely obscure the sub-vitreous luster of
chalcedony that Ed mistook as being "glass-like". Even then,
Ed's failure to recognize the now admitted chalcedony as at
least a water-deposited mineral (I could write a lengthy
discourse on how it got water-deposited long ago on those New
Mexico desert rocks.) does not speak well of his prowess for
careful observation. Then too, zeal to find evidence of a UFO
crash could easily cloud and color one's perceptions, despite
good intentions.

Ray Stanford








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 10

                              Is Someone There?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:02:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:02:02 -0400
Subject: Is Someone There?



Source: The Coloradoan -  Fort Collins, Colorado

http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030504/lifestyle/240494.html

Sunday, May 4, 2003


Is someone there?

Chances are, you don't believe in aliens -- unless you've been
taken by them

By Kelli Lackett

If you talked to Stan Romanek a few years ago about UFOs or
aliens, he would have called you a fool.

"I was pretty aggressive about calling people (who believed in
them) idiots and retards and nutcases," said the 40-year-old
former Denver resident.

But on December 27, 2000, Romanek's life changed forever. When
he was driving where Jewel Avenue meets Alameda Parkway in west
Denver, he saw a flying object about twice the size of a van
hovering over powerlines. At least a dozen other people
witnessed it, too, he said.

That incredible sight started a series of strange events,
including at least two instances where Romanek believes he was
actually taken by aliens.

Romanek is one of hundreds of "experiencers" who have come to
Fort Collins hypnotherapist Deborah Lindemann for help. Although
Lindemann helps clients with a number of mainstream problems,
she specializes in helping people with paranormal experiences.

Lindemann also conducts research on the encounters through her
Center for Extraordinary Explorations and leads an invitation-
only, confidential support group for those who believe they've
had alien encounters.

"I have seen hundreds of cases that are potential encounter
cases," Lindemann said. "If I had to wildly guess, I'd say about
35 percent of them turn out to have other explanations."

A much-cited Roper Poll in 1991 suggested that as many as 3.7
millions Americans have had encounters with aliens. But the
methodology of the poll has proved to be dubious.

"I'd be surprised if the number were that high," Lindemann said.
"The problem with the Roper poll is that the indicators (used in
the poll) are not necessarily an indication of an encounter.
They could be indicators of out-of-body experiences, angel
encounters, even poltergeists."

Those who think they've had encounters with aliens often recall
similar experiences. These include seeing UFO-like crafts,
experiencing periods of missing time, discovering strange marks
on their bodies, having uncomfortable flashback images and
waking up in a different place than where they went to sleep.

Before Lindemann and her clients entertain the idea of an alien
encounter, Lindemann tries to first help them find earthly
explanations for the experiences. Hypnosis can be helpful in
recovering memories of "missing time," she said.

"Hypnosis has been used for years by police departments in
helping to get details of crimes to convict criminals in high-
profile cases," Lindemann said.

Documentary filmmakers are interested in Romanek's case because
it is one of the most well-documented encounters, it is rich in
evidence, and there were numerous witnesses to many of his UFO
sightings, Lindemann said.

While under hypnosis, Romanek recalled that during the night
after one of the UFO sightings, three humanoid creatures -- two
men and a woman-- came to the door of his sister's house, where
he was staying, at 2 a.m.

"We went to the balcony and I grabbed at the male," Romanek
said. "The next thing I knew, I was in a room and I was stuck to
the wall. I wasn't glued to the wall. It's like someone had
turned the gravity on that wall. ... Then they were doing stuff
to my back."

Romanek tried to convince himself that this was a dream, but
wounds on his back wide enough to stick his little finger in
made it hard to ignore it. His sister also remembers the
humanoid creatures, he said.

"This wasn't a dream. This was real," Romanek said. "Being
hypnotized is not like you think it is. Stuff just comes out. I
remembered it. ... I know for a fact that this is real. And they
make sure they leave evidence."

The creatures revealed complex mathematical equations to him,
Romanek said.

"I have a learning disability. I'm severely dyslexic. When I
went through the regression and came out with these equations, I
was floored," Romanek said. "All of the top scientists have
looked at these."

At least twice, Romanek has awakened with rows and rows of
equations he has written spread out in front of him.
Mathematicians have said that the equations have to do with
high-level concepts in quantum physics such as wormholes, zero
point energy and element 115, Romanek said.

Romanek, who now lives out of state, prefers that his location
not be revealed in order to protect his privacy.

"The fact that Romanek had no interest in aliens before his
experiences is quite common among those who report encounters,
Lindemann said. She said that people who have encounters are
often skeptics, and they are reluctant to talk and open
themselves up to ridicule.

"They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by coming
forward with their experience. If they have to admit it, now
what do they do? Many say, 'I would rather be diagnosed as crazy
because I could simply take a pill and feel better,' " Lindemann
said. "Most people have been quietly suffering with this for
years. It's like they are leading a double life."

Susan, a 52-year-old Estes Park resident who asked that her last
name not be published to protect her privacy, lived quietly with
her paranormal experience for at least a decade before she
talked about it.

In 1973, Susan and a friend were driving between Big Rapids and
Ann Arbor, Mich., when they saw a flying disc hovering about 25
feet above the ground.

"It was like an electric shock of fear," Susan said. "I was out
like a light. I had a mental blip. The next thing I knew, I
opened my eyes and it was still sitting there. Then it zipped
out really fast."

Years later, Susan's friend recounted an almost identical
experience, Susan said. Since the event, she has had similar
episodes of "missing time" and she even remembers having them
during her childhood. Hypnosis didn't help her recover any
memories from the "missing time."

"I don't know if this is from another planet or another
dimension. All I know is that it happened," she said.

In the mid-1980s, Susan finally went to a psychologist who gave
her a battery of psychological tests.

"His conclusion was that I was mentally stable, but something
about the results of the test were similar to someone who has
been raped," said Susan, who now participates in Lindemann's
support group.

Over the years scientists have tried to explain such encounters
with countless theories. Some say the people are mentally ill or
that memories change during hypnotic regression.

Others have surmised that those who have encounters have labile,
or changeable, temporal lobes in their brains, which makes them
more prone to fantasy and visions. To date, however, there is no
evidence that UFO reporters have more labile temporal lobes than
others.

Another theory is that abduction narratives are caused by a
sleep disorder called awareness of sleep paralysis. We are all
temporally paralyzed when we sleep so that we will not act out
our dreams. But about 3 to 6 percent of the population routinely
become aware of their paralysis, according to Susan Blackmore, a
psychologist who has published an article on the subject in
Skeptical Inquirer.

A common sleep-paralysis episode is when someone wakes up
paralyzed, senses a presence in the room, feels terror and may
see strange lights or even entities.

Lindemann thinks, however, that although awareness of sleep
paralysis can be mistaken for an abduction, it cannot explain
all possible encounters.

If someone has had what seems like a dream concerning an alien
encounter, Lindemann looks for other indicator such as marks on
the body or unexplainable phobia.

"Generally speaking, memories surrounding abductions that are
recalled in a dream state are repetitious. ... Also the
intensity is really hard to forget. It can be quite emotional.
... The dream haunts you and you know at a deep level that it is
not a dream."

Conducting research on possible alien encounters is a
complicated business, she said.

"We are not always getting a fair representation of the visitors
or encounters because it's usually only those who have had a
negative or frightening experience who come forward," Lindemann
said. "People who have had neutral or positive experiences are
not the ones in the documentaries or the ones who seek
professional help."

Although support groups like Lindemann's can help with the
isolation and emotions of unexplainable experiences, most of
those who have had encounters end up with more questions than
answers.

And like Romanek and Susan, the questions never go away.

"I would like to see more people be more open-minded and search
for the truth," Susan said. "I guess I'm convinced that more is
known than is actually admitted by people. At the same time, I
don't know what this means."

"There are probably a lot of people put there who are yanking





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   May > May 10

                     Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - Caput

From: Scott Caput <scaput@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:58:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:06:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Huge Contrail Sighting - Caput


 >>From: Scott Caput <scaput@bellsouth.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:37:03 -0400
 >>Subject: Huge Contrail Sighting

 >>Today, in Miami Florida at approximately 5:00pm EST, I observed
 >>a large contrail in the sky. The trail stretched from horizon to
 >>horizon (NW to SE). It was very dense and white. I noticed too
 >>late to see it being created, but it was huge! This was by far,
 >>the thickest trail I have seen here to date. Did anyone else
 >>observe it? Any thoughts on a possible cause?

 ><snip>

 >Hi Scott and greetings everyone!

 >I disagree with GT McCoy and Larry Hatch that what you saw could
 >have been the contrail of a very large airplane.

 >My thoughts are that the thick dense white "contrail" you saw,
 >stretching from the NW to the SE, was one of many thin cloud
 >bands that swept over the Miami area that day.

 >A quick check of the NOAA web site through their infrequent
 >satellite images showing clouds over southern Florida during
 >daylight hours seems to confirm this.

 >Check out the two URLs below and click the images to enlarge
 >them. Notice the many thin parallel cloud bands aligned in the
 >same NW to SE direction as your "contrail"?

 >http://www.saa.noaa.gov/cocoon/nsaa/details?id=1&datatype_family=CWSOE

 >http://www.saa.noaa.gov/cocoon/nsaa/details?id=7&datatype_family=CWSOE

<snip>

Hello Nick,

During my observation of the trail, I noticed that there were
many clouds of that type in the sky, but none of them were as
thick and as dense as this trail. I am always wary of reporting
something odd for fear of it being identifiable and looking like
a nut, so before I considered this odd, I had a good look around
the sky. It looked almost like the trail left from the shuttle
disaster, i.e. something burning up high in the atmosphere.

Just my luck, I'm the only witness.

Scott Caput





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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:56:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:07:55 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >If we were indeed visited by aliens, we might expect to find
 >structures created by them, however degraded.

 >In my opinion we have inadvertantly found some on Mars, and the
 >Moon has its share of anomalies as well. Such a discovery would
 >have direct 'national security' aspects.

Why?


Eleanor White







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                          Secrecy News -- 05/09/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:16:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:10:09 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/09/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 39
May 9, 2003


**      AMENDING THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT
**      DARPA ON DATA MINING
**      UPDATE ON NSA FOIA EXEMPTION
**      RULING ON MUJAHEDEEN-E KHALQ AS A TERRORIST ORG
**      OSLO CONFERENCE ON INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT
**      BUSHSECRECY.ORG
**      DEFYING HITLER


AMENDING THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT

The Senate approved an amendment to the 1978 Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) that would further augment
government authority by permitting clandestine search and
surveillance of individuals suspected of engaging in
international terrorism even if it cannot be shown that they
have ties to a foreign government or a foreign terrorist
organization. The amendment would not apply to "U.S. persons,"
such as U.S. citizens.

Senator Dianne Feinstein argued that the measure had
insufficient safeguards and invited abuse, and she offered an
alternative proposal.

"I am not saying that [the Government] will overreach," Sen.
Feinstein said. "But because it is a secret process, the laws we
pass have to prevent that overreach." Her preventive alternative,
however, was rejected.

Senator Patrick Leahy likewise objected. "Far from addressing a
true problem, all that [the amendment] would do is encourage the
use of the secret, unchecked FISA process for an entire class of
cases that are more appropriately handled as criminal matters."

The Senate passed the FISA amendment by a vote of 90-4. See the
full text of the May 8 floor debate here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s050803.html

The amendment emerged from an ongoing internal dispute in the
Senate over the implementation of the Patriot Act and the adequacy
of congressional oversight. Senators Leahy, Grassley and Specter
have led the critics, while Senator Orrin Hatch has advocated the
Administration line. The views of both sides are sharply
expressed in an April 29 Senate Judiciary Committee report on the
new FISA amendment, which may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_rpt/srpt108-40.html

Other resources on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act may
be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/index.html

In exchange for approval of the new FISA amendment, proponents of
the Patriot Act led by Senator Hatch withdrew (for now) their
demand that the Act's 2005 expiration date be canceled. See
"Senate Deal Kills Effort to Extend Antiterror Act," by Eric
Lichtblau, New York Times, May 9:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/09/international/worldspecial/09TERR.html


DARPA ON DATA MINING

In congressional testimony this week, the Director of the
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) presented a
disarmingly modest and rational account of his agency's research
on data mining, including the notorious Total Information
Awareness program.

An indiscriminate approach to data mining will not work, said
Dr. Tony Tether. "Our research goal to create better
counterterrorism tools will not be realized by surveilling huge
piles of data representing a collection of broad or ill-defined
activities in the hope of discovering previously unknown,
unspecified patterns."

He stressed moreover that DARPA seeks to achieve "full
compliance" with "American values related to privacy." See his
May 6 statement here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_hr/050603tether.html

Dr. Tether's testimony was first reported by Adam Clymer in
"Pentagon Surveillance Plan is Described as Less Invasive," New
York Times, May 7:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/07/international/worldspecial/07PRIV.html


UPDATE ON NSA FOIA EXEMPTION

The proposed Freedom of Information Act exemption for
"operational files" of the National Security Agency was included
in the Senate Armed Services Committee markup of the 2004
Defense Authorization Act that was completed on May 9. But that
is not necessarily the end of the matter, Senate staffers said.

"There are rumblings" of possible remedial action on the Senate
floor to eliminate the provision, or modify it significantly,
one staffer said.


RULING ON MUJAHEDEEN-E KHALQ AS A TERRORIST ORG

The People's Mujahedin of Iran (Mujahedeen-e Khalq), a militant
organization violently opposed to the Iranian government,
challenged its designation by the U.S. State Department as a
"foreign terrorist organization." The Mujahedin told a U.S.
court that the designation should be found unconstitutional
since it was based in part on classified evidence that the group
had had no opportunity to rebut.

The D.C. District Court of Appeals didn't buy it. "While
colorable, this argument will not carry the day," the appeals
court ruled on May 9. (According to Black's Law Dictionary,
"colorable" here means "appearing to be true, valid, or right.")

See a copy of the appeals court ruling here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/pmvstate.pdf

See also "Support waning for controversial Iran rebel group" by
Frank Davies, Miami Herald, April 10:

  http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/5598418.htm


OSLO CONFERENCE ON INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT

The Geneva Centre for the Democratic Control of Armed Forces will
hold its second annual Workshop on " Making Intelligence
Accountable" in Oslo, Norway on September 19-20. For more
information, see:

http://www.dcaf.ch/news/Intel%20Acct_Oslo%200903/ws_mainpage.html


BUSHSECRECY.ORG

The public interest group Public Citizen has launched a new web
site, BushSecrecy.org, devoted to Bush Administration secrecy.

"Here, Public Citizen chronicles and documents the
administration's obsession with secrecy, as well as the steps
we, and others, are taking to fight it."

The site focuses on executive privilege, including the dispute
over access to presidential records, as well as freedom of
information act policy and changes to national security
classification policy. It provides links to source documents,
along with interpretive analysis from Public Citizen. The site
displays exemplary production values.

Remarkably, however, quite a few aspects of Bush Administration
secrecy policy are left out. And so far, at least, the site
scarcely acknowledges the numerous parallel and complementary
efforts already undertaken by others. See:

http://www.Bushsecrecy.org

FAS resources on Bush Administration secrecy policy may be found
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/index.html


DEFYING HITLER

How can an entire society go crazy? That is the question
pondered by the late Sebastian Haffner, an ordinary German who
was astonished and ashamed at the changes that overtook his
country in the 1930s.

His 1939 memoir, unpublished until 2000, describes the
incremental and then unstoppable rise of Nazism from the
perspective of a skeptical humanist who found himself
unwillingly swept away.

The English translation, published last year, is entitled
"Defying Hitler," but that is misleading. (The original title
was "Geschichtes eines Deutschen," The Story of a German.) In
fact, the absence of real defiance, the actual inability to
mobilize even minimal resistance to the tide of militant
nationalism described by the author is part of what makes this
such a striking and suggestive work. Readers may draw their own
analogies.

See this representative review of "Defying Hitler" by Charles
Taylor from Salon.com, September 3, 2002 (thanks to YL for the
suggestion):

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2002/09/03/haffner/


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a blank email message to
secrecy_news-remove@lists.fas.org

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691
_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






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                   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:31:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:12:47 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:12:27 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

<snip>

 >One of the most noticeable is the agate-like covering
 >of one of the rocks in the dry wash directly south of where the
 >craft landed. That rock is still there today, just as shown in
 >the cameraman's drawings.

Here we go again. It was "glass-like". Now it's "agate-like"!

Why not just admit it is agate (chalcedony). That would be the
intellectually honest thing to do.

You are clearly still wishing it to be some mysterious effect of
a UFO crash, when it absolutely is not. Quit promoting myth, for
Ufology's sake, if not for your own self image.

Furthermore, I seriously doubt that anyone brought in to film a
UFO crash scene would have even noticed thin chalcedony on rocks
in the area, so amazed and pre-orrupied would be he surely be
with something completely startling.

Oh, the will to believe!

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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             Re: Leveland, TX News Story Nov. 3, 1957 - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:13:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:14:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Leveland, TX News Story Nov. 3, 1957 - Stanford


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:43:58 -0400
 >Subject: Leveland, TX News Story Nov. 3, 1957

<snip>

 >I am pleased to announce the recovery and preservation of a CBS
 >Newscast of November 3, 1957, that relates the Leveland, TX
 >sighting...

<snip>

 >Sheriff Clem said he even got a glimpse of this thing, which
 >somehow switched off lights and auto engines when it came near.
 >The Sheriff said lights and engines worked fine again after the
 >thing went away.

 >This is Bob Pierpoint in Washington."

Thanks for reinvoking those memories of exciting days and
nights, Wendy, that had been "...wrapped between the pages of my
mind", and those of the relatively few others of us 'old timers'
still active in the field.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery






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                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:30:07 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:23:25 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:51:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

<snip>

 >I found it really incredible that he has circulated
 >stories about rocks at an alleged UFO crash site being
 >coated with a mysterious "glass-like" (again, his term)

<snip>

The material is superficially "glass-like" inasmuch as it's
smooth. (Emphasis on "like.")

To readers wondering what the material looks like: it reminds me
of certain lichens, oddly enough. Very smooth and sort of milky
looking, like a glaze that hasn't been fired.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies
macbot@yahoo.com

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:55:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:26:10 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:47 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:01:18 -0400
 >>>Subject: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >><snip>

 >>>Can anyone explain why any photos of the surface of other worlds
 >>>should be classified? Particularly if NASA's mission is
 >>>ostensibly the exploration of space, rather than military
 >>>operations?

 >>Even Carl Sagan ventured the possibility that our solar system
 >>may have been visited in historical times, to say nothing of
 >>prehistoric times.

 >>If we were indeed visited by aliens, we might expect to find
 >>structures created by them, however degraded.

 >>In my opinion we have inadvertantly found some on Mars, and the
 >>Moon has its share of anomalies as well. Such a discovery would
 >>have direct 'national security' aspects.

 >Hiya Mac, Eleanor,

 >Three weeks ago I brought up this subject of the missing/
 >withheld Clementine mission photographic material on 'Strange
 >Days... Indeed'. Most of the missing/withheld pix are of the
 >dark and unseen side of the moon.

 >More and more as the years have rolled by NASA has become more
 >'militarized' both in personnel and in projects and less and
 >less a 'public' entity as was its original charter and purpose.
 >The 'secrecy' and withholding of taxpayer paid for material is
 >outrageous and inexcusable.

 >But NASA continues to get away with that kind of thing without
 >any public accountability. Clementine was one of many 'military'
 >projects being handled by NASA. I completely understand the need
 >to keep certain photos of 'earthly' targets secret for security
 >or military purposes. I have no problem with that.

 >But... for crying out loud, what the hell can there be on the
 >'moon' that needs to be kept "secret?" To be kept from public
 >view or scrutiny? It's insane!

 >Nope, the _only_ reason that the military would have for keeping
 >_thousands_ of photos from us, the public, that were taken of
 >the of the dark-side of the moon is; if there was something
 >'threatening,' either to them, the military, the public, clearly
 >visible and unmistakable, sitting there for all to see on the
 >surface of the moon.

John, there is another reason.

The Clementine mission was a joint effort between the BMDO
(Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) and NASA. They wanted
to qualify light weight imaging sensors and component
technologies for the next generation of DoD spacecraft.

The BMDO mission includes Theater missile defense and National
missile defense as well as advanced technology development.

It is possible that this survey of the moon was intended to
locate possible construction sites for ballistic missile launch
facilities.


-Bill H







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:27:54 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:47 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >Nope, the _only_ reason that the military would have for keeping
 >_thousands_ of photos from us, the public, that were taken of
 >the of the dark-side of the moon is; if there was something
 >'threatening,' either to them, the military, the public, clearly
 >visible and unmistakable, sitting there for all to see on the
 >surface of the moon.

Hi John,

I tend to agree. I've seen some intriguing photos of the lunar
surface that hint at the presence of artificial structures.

And forgive me for nitpicking, but there is no "dark" side of
the Moon (Pink Floyd notwithstanding). It's illuminated by the
Sun just like the side that happens to face Earth.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies
macbot@yahoo.com

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:29:37 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Tonnies


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:12:27 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

<snip>

 >I don't know exactly how the drawings came to be. There are two
 >drawings from two different perspectives. One shows the craft
 >and two creatures on the ground; they're both clutching
 >something that resembles a box,

<snip>

According to the alien autopsy 'conventional wisdom', these
boxes were the six-fingered control panels featured in the
"debris footage." (The alien version of a laptop computer?)

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/aa.html

--Mac Tonnies







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              Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 01:32:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:32:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case - Koch


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:27:16 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Stan Romanek On The Stan Romanek Case


 >Holy Hatshepsut...!!! Now that is really getting
 >ridiculous!!!

 >Ufology should be a science, not a religion!

 >Science does not ask permission (de facto, pray to) a
 >phenomenon to monitor it, technology, what they are
 >doing here, etc.

<snip>

 >Ask their permission! Ridiculous! LMAO!


Dear Ray,

if you meet a person for the first time you always try to be
polite, if you have the ability, you smile, and if you see a
hand that could be shaken, you stretch our yours. Don't you?

You will never approach a person with environmental monitor of
some sort, the UFO detector or the PC-monitored type or possibly
one of the 10-12 hour video recorders. Wouldn't you?

Ufology is a hobby so far, there is no University which offers
'Ufology' as a course of studies.

The fact that science does not ask for permission is something
to consider. Maybe not here in this list.

If you take photographs of someone or listen to his electronic
communication you must ask him according to the law (as far as
there are no 'certain circumstances according to certain acts')
for his permission. You must ask.

And to complain about the fact that a (seemingly) superior race
(state/belief system) violates another (seemingly) inferior
  race (state/belief system)-- well..

Take a mirror, look inside and consider if you really would like
to write this again:

"Ridiculous!"

Joachim Koch







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:38:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:35:10 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:47 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:01:18 -0400
 >>>Subject: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >><snip>

 >But... for crying out loud, what the hell can there be on the
 >'moon' that needs to be kept "secret?" To be kept from public
 >view or scrutiny? It's insane!

 >Nope, the _only_ reason that the military would have for keeping
 >_thousands_ of photos from us, the public, that were taken of
 >the of the dark-side of the moon is; if there was something
 >'threatening,' either to them, the military, the public, clearly
 >visible and unmistakable, sitting there for all to see on the
 >surface of the moon.

Hey, Let's call it the 'back' side of the Moon, before Mr. Oberg
gets after us for calling it 'dark.'

Jim D.







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                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:20:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:36:48 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:51:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>>Ray Stanford writes an excellent analysis re. the rock specimens
 >>>provided by Ed Gehrman, found here:

 >>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m06-016.shtml

 >>I hope this doesn't keep you from having your samples analyzed
 >>as you said you would. The purpose for sending out multiple
 >>samples was to get several opinions.

 ><snip>

 >O.K. Let me make something clear. My report was of an analysis
 >yielding very clear and unambiguous results. What I reported is
 >not an opinion but a fact, and had it been anything else, I
 >would clearly have stated so.

Ray,
I really appriciate the work you've done on the samples.
I'm fine with the material being agate-like.
 >Also, I would have been delighted
 >and excited to the 'Nth degree' had the material coating the
 >rocks have been glass or a mystery substance, but here is an
 >astonishing fact:
 >
 >By telephone, I asked Ed Gehrman whether he had examined the
 >material with even as much as a 10-X loop. He asked me what I
 >meant by "a loop", and I explained. He responded with a clearly
 >truthful, "No, I haven't done that."
 >
 >I say, "clearly truthful', because if he had done so, and if he
 >has even superficial close-up experience with rocks and
 >minerals, he would have known the stuff is definitely not truly
 >glass-like (his term) and that it is chalcedony.

I never said I was a rock hound or had a clear understanding
of minerals. My brother and I had never
seen anything like this material before in our own experience.
I've scoured the web for samples and no luck. I do
admit that agate is a close match.
I'm not that familiar with microscopes and probably wouldn't know
what I was seeing. I showed these samples to many of my friends.
One is a working miner and he told me that the material seemed
to be chalcedony, but when he explained the process
to form a chalcedony, I didn't see how that could have
  happened at this site.

 >I found it really incredible that he has circulated stories
 >about rocks at an alleged UFO crash site being coated with a
 >mysterious "glass-like" (again, his term) substance and that he
 >had not even looked closely at the substance with even an
 >inexpensive hand loop, before making such a report.

I wouldn't know what I was looking at. I know the material
is very unusual. Why? because I've never seen anything
that resembles it scattered across the desert. Yes, I've
seen agate, many times, but never scattered over three
football fields of desert.
Glass-like was a poor term.

 >So, I will go a bit deeper than my initial report and add that
 >the coating on the rock shows, under the microscope - botton to
 >top through cross-section - several distinct crystalline growth-
 >deposition phases atop each other, and each of these distinct
 >layers reveals its own microcrystalline growth structure. The
 >hardness of these layers is 7 on Mohs, as I said before, and I
 >was able to readily and deeply scratch the hardened steel of a
 >pocket knife blade with the material coating the rocks. Further
 >tests indicate it is harder than four types of glass formed in
 >cosmic impacts, to which its hardness was compared by me in
 >tests: (1) Libyan desert glass, (2) moldavite, (3) S-E Asian
 >strewn field tektite, and, (4) Darwin glass.

I think this is wonderful information, but why haven't you
found the exact match you promised to show me?

 >During our phone conversation, Ed suggested that I might be
 >wrong in my identification of what coated the rock, suggesting
 >it might really be, "a polymer" formed in a crashing spaceship's
 >plasma. I told him that it is, unmistakably, chacedony, based on
 >luster, layering, crystalling growth layers, hardness, and its
 >imperviability to muriatic acid (28% hydrochloric acid) - one of
 >several other tests I performed.

You're doing a great job; keep testing.
As for the polymer quote-simply theorizing.

 >When I inquired of Ed as to what type of polymer he was proposing would
have
 >the aforementioned properties, he suggested a polymer composed of
"proteins
 >from cobwebs" combined with unspecified atmospheric impurities, somehow
 >synthesized by the great heat of a spaceship's plasma!
 >
 >I pointed out that plasmas are very hot and that cobweb readily burns. I
 >also pointed out that such speculation out of the context of reasonably
 >derived hard data is whole-cloth embroidery and not even valid hypothesis
 >formation.

As I recall, you never let me say much about anything; it was your dime
so I didn't complain. I explained that I believed this craft was
powered by a mercury-based engine and used a vortex
during its flight.The vortex picked up atmospheric debris.
The material resembles a fine plastic so I thought it might be
a polymer material. I seem to be incorrect.

 >>The best reasons (there are several others but that would
 >>involve delving into the history of the AA which I don't want to
 >>do right now) are the following: (1)the cameraman's drawing of
 >>the site that I sent you several days ago is exactly the way the
 >>site is today, down to the glass-like material on rocks ...
 >
 >Here we go again with the perpetuation of the myth of a glass-
 >like material! It is absolutely not glass like, and the surface
 >does not have a glassy luster, but has a diffuse, sub-vitreous
 >luster characteristic of the surface of 'raw' (unpolished)
 >chalcedony. Chalcedony is not, contrary to Ed's claim, a "catch-
 >all" term. It is a very specific thing, but comes in diverse
 >colors (depending on trace minerals) and can grow in very grape-
 >bunch like clusters or in quite flat layers (depending, in part,
 >upon the surface on which it forms), or in any number of shapes
 >between those two.


OK. I don't have a problem with it being chalcedony-like.

 >The material on those two rocks Ed sent me is absolutely not, to
 >repeat Ed's words, "glass like"!

OK I understand; I told you I understood during our
phone conversation. What I don't understand is how it got there.

 >Ed submitted a photo with an area circled that looks exactly
 >like a large (several feet wide) ancient natural rock cleavage
 >enhanced by a minor-scale prospecting-mining operation. The rock
 >outcropping was clearly not spread apart by a speed impact on
 >any kind, yet he labels it, "first impact site".

The cliff in the photo is sixty feet high and one hundred feet at it's
base. From the top to the bottom it's covered in a scattered fashion
with this material. A person can't see this in the photo.
The photos are not meant to prove anything but to show the layout
of the crash site.

 >Such a statement is totally subjective and reveals wishful
 >thinking instead of objective investigation.

I've been there, you haven't.

 >Another photo has a maybe 30-foot long, nondescript area circled
 >that is labeled, "crash site".
 >
 >I see nothing but imagination to support such a claim.

There's nothing in the photo to prove that this is the crash site.
I just wanted you to see it and get a feel for what it's like.
But let's get this straight: the only thing that distinguishes
this plot of desert from any other millions of acres of desert is
that this is where we find deposits of unusual
material and burned vegetation and the cameraman
who said a craft crashed somewhere in this area.


 >Another photo is labeled "burned cottonwood tree", but nothing
 >on the tree's remains give the slightest suggestion to me that
 >anything extraordinary happened there.

You'll have to see it for yourself.


 >While Ed is to be commended for seeking analysis of the
 >chalcedony of the rocks, might better have prevented myth
 >generation by simply taking a couple of the rocks to the
 >mineralogical section of a museum and asking someone with a
 >background in mineralogy or petrology what is on the surfaced of
 >the rock(s), without telling the person(s) involved anything
 >about an alleged UFO crash, and without announcing to this list
 >that strange evidence has been found at a possible UFO crash
 >site.

Let me say this again. I believe my brother and I have
found the cameraman's crash site. There are many reasons
for this belief and finding that the material is chalcedony
doesn't change a thing, except it isn't polymer.


 >By the way, Ed told this list that the person he and his brother
 >consulted in New Mexico (Socorro) said he had no idea what the
 >stuff on the rock(s) could be:
 >
 >>...we took a sample to him for a superficial analysis.
 >
 >>He couldn't identify the material and was somewhat surprised
 >>that he couldn't. He examined the strange material with a light
 >>enhanced magnifying scope he had on his belt and just shook his
 >>head: "I don't know what this".

That's exactly what happened.

 >Yet, on the phone Ed told me that the person in Socorro declared it to be
a
 >type of calcite. Even if I somehow got Ed's account on the phone confused,
 >and Ed was referring to two different persons' comments, one might wonder
 >why the interpretation (albeit incorrect) that it was a form of calcite
was
 >not noted in Ed's first account of this matter.

I took the material to the NM school of mines, gem examination room, a man
named
Avery. He identified the material as calcite and we argued a bit
because I'd never seen any calcite like that, but he brushed me off
with a " You can believe what you want." I felt the information
and matter incomplete.

 >The aforementioned precaution of saying absolutely nothing about
 >the background of the sample(s) to a potential analyst is very
 >important for multiple reasons. I will later explain if anyone
 >needs an explanation. A mineralogist will certainly not think a
 >sample like the ones Ed provided me to be strange at all. It
 >would normally elicit no probing questions, anyhow, except maybe
 >an incredulous, "You don't recognize what this is!?", if the
 >researcher is the indignant type.

That's about the way it went. The problem is that he was
incorrect, and I knew he was incorrect, but he didn't budge an inch.

 >The real point of this little explicit discussion is the hope of
 >discouraging the proliferation of unfounded rumors of mysterious
 >UFO crash site evidence. Let us try our very best not to cloud
 >with rumor a category of inquiry already burdened and sometimes
 >made laughable by unfounded speculation and wishful thinking.

Father, forgive me!

 >It burdens me to have to make comments like this,

I can tell.

 >because Ed
 >seems a nice, intelligent, and very sincere student of UFO
 >phenomena. In this instance, however, I think he has been
 >overly zealous and unobjective (witness his notes on the photos
 >he sent me), and that private inquiry to a professional or
 >professionals in an appropriate field of study (and one who has
 >no knowledge of Ed's speculations about crash evidences) would
 >have been a far better route to pursue first.

I don't think so. The information you've provided
has been an excellent contribution. Everyone has part of the truth.
I want folks involved. Real adventure.

 >The fact that Ed did not notice what he calls a 'glass-like'
 >appearance to the parts of rocks that were within the topsoil
 >means absolutely nothing in the absence of a report by him of
 >just how many pieces he lifted to check for that, and without an
 >unequivocal statement that each examined piece was washed
 >carefully before examination, because a host of things about
 >soil can completely obscure the sub-vitreous luster of
 >chalcedony that Ed mistook as being "glass-like".

I tried to keep the site as virginal as possible. No rock picks
and only minor disturbance of top soil. I returned the rocks to
their exact location and position, except for the samples I
kept. It was my observation that the rocks I examined had no
material below the sand line. That's a fact, whether you like it
or not.

 >Even then,
 >Ed's failure to recognize the now admitted chalcedony as at
 >least a water-deposited mineral (I could write a lengthy
 >discourse on how it got water-deposited long ago on those New
 >Mexico desert rocks.) does not speak well of his prowess for
 >careful observation.

Now here's the real problem. There is zero way that this
material could have been water deposited on this site and on the
individual rocks on the site-some are three feet apart. Please
don't write a lengthy discourse. It would be a waste of your
time because one visit to the site would destroy your efforts.
Just show me an example of an area three football fields covered
with agate. A better exercise would be to ask how a craft(UFO)
could make a deposit of chalcedony of this magnitude.


Ed







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 01:48:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:38:38 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:59:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer

 >>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>congratulations - you get an "A".

<snip>

 >They were found to be 'genuine unknowns.' ie; not mylar
 >balloons, birds, airplanes or out of focus pie plates etc. For
 >years I had the material posted on the web both at the old
 >Intruders Foundation website (along with a photocopy of Jeff
 >Saino's report) and also at Tommy King's old OMNI video archive
 >website. List veterans such as Bill Hamilton, Tom King, Ray
 >Sanford (and a couple of others that have posted in the past,)
 >have all been capturing anomalous aerial objects (on video
 >and film) for many years.

John, how does one define a "genuine unknown"? How can anyone say what
something is not if they don't even know what it is? If it's unknown,
then it could be just about anything. It's either known or unknown,
identified or unidentified. You can have it both ways.

 >I say all this to say what?

 >You need to 'balance' your lesson with material that has not
 >been faked or recorded intentionally out of focus in order to
 >deceive.

John, nothing has been faked. It's kinda hard to "fake" a Mylar
balloon while at the same time clearly identifying it as such.
And nothing has been recorded intentionally out of focus in an
effort to deceive. I aim the camera and let it run to see how it
operates under certain conditions. If the image becomes blurred,
I study the causes. If the image fades in and out, I study these
effects.

I do not deceive, I fight deception. What do you do?

 >Contact Tommy King or Bruce Maccabee privately and ask them for
 >their permission to use some examples of the many
 >_genuinely_anomalous_ aerial objects that they have archived at
 >their respective web sites.

I've already contacted both gentlemen.

 >Mix some of those in with the ones you faked, blurred or
 >misidentified and then you will really be 'teaching' people a
 >valuable _observation_ skill.

 >Otherwise, this whole exercise is a 'one-sided' lesson.

Only to those who lack depth perception. ;>

Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:39:42 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:46:13 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer
 >>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>congratulations - you get an "A".

<snip>

 >I was wondering this: Of all the UFO videos that you have
 >analized in your research is there a single video that have
 >proved to you to be an authentic UFO ? That is in the strict
 >sense of the word meaning you discarded it was a bird, balloon,
 >airplane or blimp etc. concluding it was unknown for you ?

 >I have visited your website and I see that you have made an
 >extensive research and therefore I guess you had access to many
 >alleged UFO footages for analysis. So I'm curious about this and
 >will appreciate your comments.

If I don't know what it is, Santiago, it is unidentified... for
the moment. I continue to analyze until I find the truth. If
something is unknown, I never rule out any possible explanation
including the possibility it was a bird, balloon, airplane,
blimp, etc.

Santiago, how do you _prove_ something is authentic if you don't
know what it is?

Sincerely,

A. Hebert






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:24:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:57:55 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:47 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:01:18 -0400
 >>>Subject: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >><snip>

 >>>Can anyone explain why any photos of the surface of other worlds
 >>>should be classified? Particularly if NASA's mission is
 >>>ostensibly the exploration of space, rather than military
 >>>operations?

<snip>

 >>If we were indeed visited by aliens, we might expect to find
 >>structures created by them, however degraded.

 >>In my opinion we have inadvertantly found some on Mars, and the
 >>Moon has its share of anomalies as well. Such a discovery would
 >>have direct 'national security' aspects.

 >Hiya Mac, Eleanor,

 >Three weeks ago I brought up this subject of the missing/
 >withheld Clementine mission photographic material on 'Strange
 >Days... Indeed'. Most of the missing/withheld pix are of the
 >dark and unseen side of the moon.

 >More and more as the years have rolled by NASA has become more
 >'militarized' both in personnel and in projects and less and
 >less a 'public' entity as was its original charter and purpose.
 >The 'secrecy' and withholding of taxpayer paid for material is
 >outrageous and inexcusable.

 >But NASA continues to get away with that kind of thing without
 >any public accountability. Clementine was one of many 'military'
 >projects being handled by NASA. I completely understand the need
 >to keep certain photos of 'earthly' targets secret for security
 >or military purposes. I have no problem with that.

 >But... for crying out loud, what the hell can there be on the
 >'moon' that needs to be kept "secret?" To be kept from public
 >view or scrutiny? It's insane!

 >Nope, the _only_ reason that the military would have for keeping
 >_thousands_ of photos from us, the public, that were taken of
 >the of the dark-side of the moon is; if there was something
 >'threatening,' either to them, the military, the public, clearly
 >visible and unmistakable, sitting there for all to see on the
 >surface of the moon.

 >There is no other _plausible_ explanation for their keeping
 >moon photos sequestered and secret.

 >Yo, Mr. Oberg, what do you know about the closeted Clementine
 >photographic material? What's the 'party-line' on that one? :)


Dear John and others:

I must admit, the Clementine matter blind-sided me. If I ever
heard of it, it went in one ear and out the other.

Do I have this straight? Something like 23,000 images of the far
side of the Moon; hidden, sequestered, classified, conveniently
lost, or otherwise withheld from science .. possibly due to
alien artifacts?

That's a tall order indeed! If true, one could indeed argue for
some kind of conspiracy, and not a small one.

Did the world of science object to this?  Its hard to imagine
them not screaming their heads off.

Browsing for "clementine mission" + "missing images" and found
several sites including this one:

http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/Projects/Clementine/nasaclem/archive/arcsis.html

Scanning that site for "missing images" I found some interesting
file names like:

  MISSINDX.TAB - Table of missing images. Image file names
  in this directory were lost during the active fight projects
  due to a variety of problems including: images not properly
  transmitted to Earth, image files lost between ground
  receiving station and mission operations center. Images
  listed in this directory can not be recovered.

  MISSINDX.LBL - Detached PDS label that describes the
  MISSINDX.TAB file.

  MISSINDX.HDR - Header file used for spread sheet
  applications for the missing image index file. This file
  contains a single line that gives heading names to each row
  in the missing image index file.

Maybe a good browse for just those names might turn something
up.

I tried the first one MISSINDX.TAB and only turned up a few
sites. This is one of them, describing a CD-ROM of the archived
images:

  http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/clemcdinfo.html

I looks like an older document (1990s) but maybe the CD-ROM is
still available somewhere.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: While I doubt that Eisenhower was a space-alien contactee, I
suspect that the government could lose 23,000 of virtually
anything, even $900 toilet seats, without really trying.







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                        Re: Is Someone There? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 04:50:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:01:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Is Someone There? - Hatch


 >Source: The Coloradoan - Fort Collins, Colorado

 >http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030504/lifestyle/240494.html

 >Sunday, May 4, 2003

 >Is someone there?

<snip>

 >"I have a learning disability. I'm severely dyslexic. When I
 >went through the regression and came out with these equations,
 >I was floored," Romanek said. "All of the top scientists have
 >looked at these."

 >At least twice, Romanek has awakened with rows and rows of
 >equations he has written spread out in front of him.
 >Mathematicians have said that the equations have to do with
 >high-level concepts in quantum physics such as wormholes, zero
 >point energy and element 115, Romanek said.

- - -

Hello Stan, list:

I hope Stan Romanek was not misquoted here. Newspapers are famous
for enhancing stories, but this is important.

All the top scientists looked at the equations which a dyslexic
man came up with. Can anyone expand on that? Did Stan write them
out in the presence of these top scientists? Can we have some of
their names and where they work, to ensure they are not
fictitious?

Perhaps more interesting! Which mathematicians in particular
[names, affiliations, CVs] determined that the equations had to
do with the highly Lazaresque Element 115?

.. or zero point energy for that matter. ZPE is seriously
discussed in certain physics circles yes, but not as a source of
useable energy. Its more of a theoretical matter if I have that
right.

The last I heard, mathematicians did math, and pretty much left
physics to the physicists.

Element 115? Shades of Marvel Comics. [burp!] Just provide the
names of the mathematicians, which institutions they are
affiliated with, and maybe I can sell a bridge or two.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: Aleutian Islands real estate at astoundingly low prices!
Write to: wetdreams@larryhatch.net







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                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:03:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:08:47 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Kaeser


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:12:27 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

<snip>

 >>I don't know exactly how the drawings came to be. There are two
 >>drawings from two different perspectives. One shows the craft
 >>and two creatures on the ground; they're both clutching
 >>something that resembles a box,

<snip>

 >According to the alien autopsy 'conventional wisdom', these
 >boxes were the six-fingered control panels featured in the
 >"debris footage." (The alien version of a laptop computer?)

 >See: http://www.mactonnies.com/aa.html

 >--Mac Tonnies

There were two drawings created by an artist hired by Ray
Santilli to put onto paper the descriptions that were given by
the cameraman.  He apparently felt this might help in the search
for the site, but researchers that had looked at them and
visited the area west of Socorro didn't find that they helped
very much.  These are drawings based on anecdotal descriptions
of images in memory, and to my knowledge the cameraman was never
sent copies of these drawings to verify them.  Do these two
artistic creations have any real value in this search?

One of the drawings was specifically drawn to show how the
"control panels" (shown in one of the AA "film" segments) were
being held by the creatures. If you recall, the cameraman said
that one of them had to be struck with the butt of a rifle to
get the panel away from him.  Of course, the cameraman made a
number of statements that can't be verified any more than his
existence can.

I hope some tremendous anomaly can be identified in the rocks
being analyzed, but I'll admit I'm not holding my breath.


Steve






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                        Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 06:46:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:58:18 -0400
Subject: Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03


BLABBERMOUTH NEWS
from the BMN Project on Government Blabbermouths
Volume 2003, Issue No. 01
May 10, 2003

**   INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE of BLABBERMOUTHS
**   DARPA DATA DOODOOS
**   UPDATE ON NSA BLABBERMOUTHS
**   RULING ON MUJAHEDEEN-E KHALQ AS A LOUDMOUTH
**   OSLO CONFERENCE ON LOUDSPEAKERS
**   BUSHSECRECY.ORG
**   HITLER'S BLABBERMOUTHS

AMENDING THE FOREIGN BLABBERMOUTH ACT

The Senate blabbermouths approved an amendment that would
further augment government to permit endless blabbing and
snarfing of individuals suspected of being too quiet.

Senator Dianne Feinstein, never known for keeping her mouth
shut, argued that the measure had insufficient halvah and
safeguards and invited self-abuse, especially among pregnant
teenagers.

"I am not saying that the Government will overreach," Sen.
Feinstein said. "But because it is a secret process, the laws of
Nevada should not necessarily apply."

DARPA ON DATA BLABBING

In congressional testimony this week, the Director of the
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) blabbed a
whole kakaload about data mining, including the notorious Total
Sandwich Awareness program.

"Indiscriminate leaks will only wet our pants" said Dr. Danny
Dither. "Our research goal to is to create better peanut butter
in advance of our adversaries. This may entail jelly
improvements."


UPDATE ON NSA NSA BLABBERMOUTHS

The latest blabathon was conducted by Juanita Zequlq in Tokyo
who still insisted the NSA doesn't exist while cashing a check
from that agency in a bar on the Ginza Strip. The taxi driver
who took her back to her $300/night hotel was disappointed that
she said so little. "She was more interested in the male
impersonators" said the driver. She left him an unusually large
tip, he said.

RULING ON MUJAHEDEEN-E KHALQ BLABBERMOUTHS

The People's Mujahedin of Iran (Mujahedeen-e Khalq), has issued
a stern warning about Islamic blabbermouths. Never known for
strict silence themselves, Islamic prayer calls are screeched
into night and day skies by the least silent fellows in all of
religion. What the PMI wants is for Iranian blabbermouths to
shut up for a little while.


OSLO CONFERENCE ON SEX-STARVED NORWEGIAN BLABBERMOUTHS

The Geneva Centre for the Democratic Manipulation of Norwegian
Willies will hold its second annual Workshop on "Making Hand
Jobs Untaxable" in Oslo, Norway on September 19-20. For more
information, see:

http://www.decaf.ch/news/Intel%20Acct_Oslo%200903/ws_mainpage.html

BUSHSECRECY.ORG

The public interest group Africans for Bush Meat has launched a
new web site, BushMeat.org, devoted to clandestine culinary
adventures.

"Here we have some of the most secret recipes in the world."
said Jaime Nguru, but don't tell anyone. "We do not want this
publicized, especially the elephant steaks."


HITLER's BLABBERMOUTHS

How can an entire society go crazy? Easy. No blabbermouths.


_______________________________________________
BlabberMouth News is written by a group of conspiratorial top
scientists holding back advances in Zero Point energy, Element
115 (very high octane), 90 MPG carburetors and the like.

Due to total disinterest, this is the first and final
issue of BLABBERMOUTH.

To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a blank email message to:
blabbermouth_news@blabberlists.yak

[burp!]






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:53:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:00:08 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:24:23 -0700
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >Browsing for "clementine mission" + "missing images" and found
 >several sites including this one:

 >http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/Projects/Clementine/nasaclem/archiv
e/arcsis.html

 >Scanning that site for "missing images" I found some interesting
 >file names like:

 >MISSINDX.TAB - Table of missing images. Image file names
 >in this directory were lost during the active fight projects
 >due to a variety of problems including: images not properly
 >transmitted to Earth, image files lost between ground
 >receiving station and mission operations center. Images
 >listed in this directory can not be recovered.

 >MISSINDX.LBL - Detached PDS label that describes the
 >MISSINDX.TAB file.
 >MISSINDX.HDR - Header file used for spread sheet
 >applications for the missing image index file. This file
 >contains a single line that gives heading names to each row
 >in the missing image index file.
 >Maybe a good browse for just those names might turn something
 >up.

 >I tried the first one MISSINDX.TAB and only turned up a few
 >sites. This is one of them, describing a CD-ROM of the archived
 >images:

 >http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/clemcdinfo.html

 >I looks like an older document (1990s) but maybe the CD-ROM is
 >still available somewhere.

Hi Larry, list

You might be able to get a copy from the addresses provided on
the above webpage.

The PDS Imaging Node
Branch of Astrogeology
United States Geological Survey
2255 North Gemini Drive
Flagstaff, AZ 86002
e-mail: eeliason@sirius.wr.usgs.gov

Telephone: (602) 556-7113

or

PDS NAIF Node
MS 301-125L
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
California Institute of Technology
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, CA 91109
Internet e-mail: cacton@naif.jpl.nasa.gov
Telephone: (818) 354-3869


Regards,

Terry Groff
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/








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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:25:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:03:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:47 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>Nope, the _only_ reason that the military would have for keeping
 >>_thousands_ of photos from us, the public, that were taken of
 >>the of the dark-side of the moon is; if there was something
 >>'threatening,' either to them, the military, the public, clearly
 >>visible and unmistakable, sitting there for all to see on the
 >>surface of the moon.
 >
 >Hi John,
 >
 >I tend to agree. I've seen some intriguing photos of the lunar
 >surface that hint at the presence of artificial structures.
 >
 >And forgive me for nitpicking, but there is no "dark" side of
 >the Moon (Pink Floyd notwithstanding). It's illuminated by the
 >Sun just like the side that happens to face Earth.

I was going to mention the same thing (re: the "dark" side of
the Moon), but felt it was a little nitpicky.

For a great discussion on the far-side of the Moon, people
should read Jacques Vallee's 'Revelations', where he talks with
Bill Cooper (a decidedly scary individual) about alien bases
under the U.S. and alleged structures on the "dark side" of the
Moon. He actually starts the conversation off with asking "Who
takes out the garbage?" To which Cooper has no answer.

Vallee goes on to explain how underground bases such as the ones
Cooper describes ("city-sized" are the words he used) would
required hundreds, if not thousands, of people just to maintain
them, and the waste generated would have to be discarded
somewhere and such.

The book goes into further detail, but it was very interesting
stuff, as only Vallee's work can be. :)


Ian Rogers







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:43:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:05:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:24:23 -0700
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >Did the world of science object to this?  Its hard to imagine
 >them not screaming their heads off.

Hi Larry -

The world of science remained silent when through-the-wall radar
began to come available to anyone who has the cash, or when Dr.
Stanislaw Burzynski's cancer breakthrough was squelched via
government harassment, or when a Toronto doctor found that
standard treatment for brucellosis also cures multiple sclerosis
and was ordered to never use that treatment again.

Nor are they asking for full disclosure after evidence that AIDS
was a laboratory creation by Dr. Boyd Graves (JD - lawyer), or
full disclosure of all aspects of the MKULTRA programs including
child torture, or the disclosure of the medical histories of the
school shooters and their histories of ties to government
facilities, or the Tuskegee no-treatment syphilis experiments
which continued into the 1970s, and on and on.

In fact, it's a tough job to find any punishment at all when
crimes are committed "in the name of science".

So no, I'm not surprised that scientists are not screaming their
heads off about classified photos paid for by taxpayers.


Eleanor White







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                    The U.S. Government & UFO Information

From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:11:12 -0400
Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information



Greetings Fellow Listers,

I'd like to take a moment to toss in my two cents worth on the
subject of why the U.S. Government won't ever be more
forthcoming with UFO-related information.

A primary function of any governing body is to keep the peace,
or at least, give the appearance of keeping the peace. The U.S.
government believes, rightly so, that a large portion of our
populace is simply not equipped on any level to deal with the
ramifications of what certain revelations would most assuredly
bring. Sadly enough, I agree. I am haunted by what happened
during the War of the Worlds radio broadcasts. In the grand
scheme of time, that was yesterday. Here in the great state of
North Carolina, too many people would respond to a stranded
motorist knocking on their door at 2:00a.m. with a shotgun
muzzle, rather than a gas can.

I do not like the way things are. I'm 36, and unless a UFO
literally lands at the White House, or the Super Bowl, I will
die never having received the truth from my own government.
Before you disagree or dimiss this opinion out-of-hand, count
how many people you know, whom you believe to be a few
sandwiches short of a full picnic, that own shotguns. Now
visualize those same people's response when told the truth to
end all truths!

It really isn't a question of whether our government wants to
tell us the truth, by and large, America can't handle the
truth...

Thank you for your time,


Walt Spivey, Jr.
NCUFOA

http://community.webtv.net/MacleodIV/NCUFOANORTHCAROLINA







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                               UFOs In Africa?

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:04:36 -0400
Subject: UFOs In Africa?


Hello list.

I am asking your help once more.

I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
countries in Africa.

If you could help me, I will appreciate it.

Thank you very much


Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-presidente da EBE-ET/RAB
Brasilia/DF
Brasil






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                      Re: Is Someone There? - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:15:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:06:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Is Someone There? - Deardorff


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 04:50:02 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Is Someone There?

 >>Source: The Coloradoan - Fort Collins, Colorado

 >>http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030504/lifestyle/240494.html

 >>Sunday, May 4, 2003

 >>Is someone there?

 ><snip>

 >>"I have a learning disability. I'm severely dyslexic. When I
 >>went through the regression and came out with these equations,
 >>I was floored," Romanek said. "All of the top scientists have
 >>looked at these."

 >>At least twice, Romanek has awakened with rows and rows of
 >>equations he has written spread out in front of him.
 >>Mathematicians have said that the equations have to do with
 >>high-level concepts in quantum physics such as wormholes, zero
 >>point energy and element 115, Romanek said.

 >- - -

 >Hello Stan, list:

 >I hope Stan Romanek was not misquoted here. Newspapers are famous
 >for enhancing stories, but this is important.

 >All the top scientists looked at the equations which a dyslexic
 >man came up with. Can anyone expand on that? Did Stan write them
 >out in the presence of these top scientists? Can we have some of
 >their names and where they work, to ensure they are not
 >fictitious?

 >Perhaps more interesting! Which mathematicians in particular
 >[names, affiliations, CVs] determined that the equations had to
 >do with the highly Lazaresque Element 115?
 >...

Larry,

It was more physics than math, I'd say. There's an excellent video on
Romanek's experiences, made, I think, at the Laughlin conference a few
months ago. It's been a month since I viewed much of it, though.

As I recall from the video, only two qualified people in the
field gave their interpretations of the equations (in the video,
anyway), one of them being Jack Kasher,
physicist/astronomer/ufologist from U Nebraska at Omaha. They
made sense out of most of the symbology. For example, the fine
structure constant was involved, which Romanek shouldn't have
known about with his non-physics background.

Of course, it needn't have made entire sense, since the UFO
aliens involved could have fed him as much gobble-de-gook as
they wished.

There were two different and independent video tapes taken of
the UFOs that appeared in the vicinity (Red Rocks, CO) shortly
before Romanek had one of his (abduction?) experiences, as I
recall. Perhaps others who have the Laughlin Romanek video on
hand can amplify or correct this.


Jim Deardorff






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:46:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:08:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:43:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:24:23 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>Did the world of science object to this?  Its hard to imagine
 >>them not screaming their heads off.

 >Hi Larry -

 >The world of science remained silent when through-the-wall radar
 >began to come available to anyone who has the cash, or when Dr.
 >Stanislaw Burzynski's cancer breakthrough was squelched via
 >government harassment, or when a Toronto doctor found that
 >standard treatment for brucellosis also cures multiple sclerosis
 >and was ordered to never use that treatment again.

 >Nor are they asking for full disclosure after evidence that AIDS
 >was a laboratory creation by Dr. Boyd Graves (JD - lawyer), or
 >full disclosure of all aspects of the MKULTRA programs including
 >child torture, or the disclosure of the medical histories of the
 >school shooters and their histories of ties to government
 >facilities, or the Tuskegee no-treatment syphilis experiments
 >which continued into the 1970s, and on and on.

 >In fact, it's a tough job to find any punishment at all when
 >crimes are committed "in the name of science".

 >So no, I'm not surprised that scientists are not screaming their
 >heads off about classified photos paid for by taxpayers.


One Toronto doctor doing that treatment being allegedly threatened
doesn't stop others from doing it, would it? Or are doctors all over the
globe being silenced? (I have _never_ bought the whole "government
silencing witnesses" bit. Don't you think they'd realize by now that it
never works? People who claim to have been silenced by the FBI, CIA,
NSA, whatever, invariably blab about their "experience" anyway. Which
makes these people either very stupid or not at all worried about
reprisals from govt. hitmen!)

It's all such a tight-knit series of statements that preclude
any actual "explanations." Usually because they aren't any. Most
of this stuff you're just supposed to accept with a grain of
salt ... and if you don't, well, you're just a 'skeptic' -- as
if being skeptical were a bad thing. Frankly, I think we have
enough believers in this field. What we need is more people with
objectivity.

And I have to ask: AIDS as a laboratory experiment is a popular
conspiracy theory; what evidence do you have that it can all be
attributed to this one person? Something more than a secret
government source you can't name, I hope.

Ian Rogers







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             Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:24:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:09:55 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers


 >From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >Greetings Fellow Listers,

 >I'd like to take a moment to toss in my two cents worth on the
 >subject of why the U.S. Government won't ever be more
 >forthcoming with UFO-related information.

 >A primary function of any governing body is to keep the peace,
 >or at least, give the appearance of keeping the peace. The U.S.
 >government believes, rightly so, that a large portion of our
 >populace is simply not equipped on any level to deal with the
 >ramifications of what certain revelations would most assuredly
 >bring. Sadly enough, I agree. I am haunted by what happened
 >during the War of the Worlds radio broadcasts. In the grand
 >scheme of time, that was yesterday. Here in the great state of
 >North Carolina, too many people would respond to a stranded
 >motorist knocking on their door at 2:00a.m. with a shotgun
 >muzzle, rather than a gas can.

 >I do not like the way things are. I'm 36, and unless a UFO
 >literally lands at the White House, or the Super Bowl, I will
 >die never having received the truth from my own government.
 >Before you disagree or dimiss this opinion out-of-hand, count
 >how many people you know, whom you believe to be a few
 >sandwiches short of a full picnic, that own shotguns. Now
 >visualize those same people's response when told the truth to
 >end all truths!

 >It really isn't a question of whether our government wants to
 >tell us the truth, by and large, America can't handle the
 >truth...


I couldn't agree more. The government will only disclose (if
there is anything to disclose) if they want to. I mean, there's
optimism and then there's deluding yourself. The idea that
people if Ufology will be able to pressure the government into
acting is almost laughable. They've kept it secret this long
(again, assuming there is a Big Secret) that they're not going
to reveal everything just because people are videotaping UFOs
and discussing their experiences. They've been doing this for
years and the government has never felt the need to reveal
anything!

As Walt said, unless a UFO lands at the White House or at the
Super Bowl, the government has no need to disclose. I know that
if I was working for the government as a part of some enormous
UFO conspiracy I wouldn't be worried in the slightest about the
people in Ufology. They're hardly a threat. Most of them are so
busy fighting amongst themselves that I doubt the government
even works up a sweat. I wouldn't.


Ian Rogers







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 10

                   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:32:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:15:34 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:20:24 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:51:09 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >Ray,

 >I really appriciate the work you've done on the samples.
 >I'm fine with the material being agate-like.

Yeah! It really sounds like it -- :) -- from your post to which
I am responding, below.

Of course, you're fine with the samples being "agate-like", but
it is clear you're not fine with the samples being agate
(chalcedony), because (as I have recently learned) you have long
been committed to making the ludicrous "Alien Autopsy" affair
into a reality, for personal reasons.

 >I never said I was a rock hound or had a clear understanding
 >of minerals. My brother and I had never
 >seen anything like this material before in our own experience.
 >I've scoured the web for samples and no luck. I do
 >admit that agate is a close match.

 >I'm not that familiar with microscopes and probably wouldn't know
 >what I was seeing. I showed these samples to many of my friends.
 >One is a working miner and he told me that the material seemed
 >to be chalcedony, but when he explained the process
 >to form a chalcedony, I didn't see how that could have
 > happened at this site.

Because you cannot personally understand how over vast ages
(very possibly even in the millions of years) chalcedony coated
some areas of the rocks is no reason to believe the chalcedony
if the result of a spaceship crash.

There are a number of scenarios which I could describe that
could very plausibly explain the formation of the chalcedony,
and any one of then would be at least ten orders of magnitude
more probable than your pseudo hypothesis that it resulted from
the crash of a spaceship. I shall later provide a couple of
them.

 >>I found it really incredible that he has circulated stories
 >>about rocks at an alleged UFO crash site being coated with a
 >>mysterious "glass-like" (again, his term) substance and that he
 >>had not even looked closely at the substance with even an
 >>inexpensive hand loop, before making such a report.

 >I wouldn't know what I was looking at.

That doesn't excuse your not looking, to get a clearer Idea of
whether it was really glass-like or only superficially so,
before making a rather sensational report to this list and God
knows where else.

 >I know the material is very unusual. Why? because I've never seen anything
 >that resembles it scattered across the desert.

You know that the material is very unusual simply because you,
personally, have never seen it "scattered across the desert?!!
Ridiculous in the extreme! A little rationality would help in
this, Ed!

You also know perfectly well that I told you on the phone that I
have done much roaming (during the six years I lived in Phoenix,
Arizona) around the Arizona desert (and even in New Mexico)
looking for meteorites, on UFO related trips, and just pleasure
trips, and that I have seen such deposits on quite a few
occasions at diverse places.

Also, you are using the propaganda technique of exaggeration to
try and make your case. You know that in fact it was not, to use
your words, "scattered across the desert"! The truth actually is
that you found it on certain places on certain rocks. Period.

I can prove that by a photo you sent me which shows an area (at
the widest view) of maybe forty to fifty feet across, and on
only three locations do you have rocks circled with the caption,
"areas with glass-like material".

Well the material on the rocks which you sent me is
unquestionably chalcedony, not just "agate-like", but if you are
going to claim it to have been formed there by a spaceship
crash, you'd better be prepared to explain; (1) how it looks
like chalcedony, has the gross morphology of chalcedony
deposits, has the hardness of chalcedony, produces the streak of
chalcedony on a test surface, and has the kind of
microcrystalline growth patterns that characterize chalcedony,
and; (2) how it is that this imagined UFO-related plasma didn't
deposit the same substance on the soil all around the area.
After all, soil is primarily silica (especially so in deserts,
where there is little organic debris), and it, like the rocks,
should have retained a coating of the "polymer" you propose.

Common, Ed, tell us why it doesn't coat the ground?

So, do you want to get rational and reasonable about this and
admit the material is nothing but a natural chalcedony, and
therefore 'save face' a bit (by demonstrating that you're not a
die-hard fanatic), or would you prefer I have an electron
microprobe or other analytical test done on it, get a print-out
showing that it is primarily silica dioxide, and let the facts
make you look like an extremely fantasy-prone person?

As I told you on the phone, I can do that if you insist.


 >Glass-like was a poor term.

Good, you admit that, but had you looked at the material with a
loupe -- thanks for correcting my spelling on that, Jim :) -- I
think you might have used a more accurate term.

 >I think this is wonderful information, but why haven't you
 >found the exact match you promised to show me?

What do you mean by "exact match"?! You surely must know that
chalcedony can grow (I refer to crystal growth) on surfaces of
any shape, if that shape is in silica carrying water long
enough. It doesn't even matter if that surface is
gravitationally up, down, or anywhere in-between, provided
silica-bearing water is in contact with it long enough. You know
very well that I said nothing about an "exact match", because no
two specimens of chalcedony will ever be exactly alike. No areas
of chalcedony on the two pieces of rock you sent me are anywhere
nearly exact in form.

My wife, who collects chalcedony in the form of polished slices
of agate (chalcedony), and has a whole file with the drawers
full of beautiful slices, suggests that, rather than sending you
one of her more expensive sliced and polished examples, I wait
until next weekend's mineral show and try to find an inexpensive
example to send you. If not, I'll get a sample from my friend,
Jim (a true chalcedony freak), and send you one.

 >You're doing a great job; keep testing.
 >As for the polymer quote-simply theorizing.

But as I said before, Ed, the kind of wild speculating you are
doing about a mercury-based engine and an undefined vortex
picking up atmospheric debris, etc, is not theorizing. It is not
even valid hypothesis formation, because it is not based on
actual evidence. Do you not even understand the basics of the
scientific process?

 >As I recall, you never let me say much about anything; it was
your dime >so I didn't complain. I explained that I believed
this craft was >powered by a mercury-based engine and used a
vortex >during its flight.The vortex picked up atmospheric
debris.

Can you really expect any intelligent person to want to listen
to that kind of pseudoscientific crap? I hoped, since it was "my
dime", as you say, that it would be more constructive to explain
to you the process of chalcedony formation and more about its
characteristics, plus to correct the flawed nature of your
reasoning. It looks, however, that my time and phone expense was
wasted.

 >The material resembles a fine plastic so I thought it might be
 >a polymer material. I seem to be incorrect.

Seem to be?!!! It would be more intellectually honest just to
admit that you were absolutely incorrect. By the way, have you
ever known a plastic that had a hardness of 7 on Mohs' scale,
and crystalline growth? :)

 >>Chalcedony is not, contrary to Ed's claim, a "catch-
 >>all" term. It is a very specific thing, but comes in diverse
 >>colors (depending on trace minerals) and can grow in very grape-
 >>bunch like clusters or in quite flat layers (depending, in part,
 >>upon the surface on which it forms), or in any number of shapes
 >>between those two.

 >OK. I don't have a problem with it being chalcedony-like.

O.K., but, you have a serious problem with admitting that it
really is chalcedony! Any non-novice mineral collector could,
immediately, even in-the-field, quickly tell you that it is
chalcedony.

 >>The material on those two rocks Ed sent me is absolutely not, to
 >>repeat Ed's words, "glass like"!

 >OK I understand; I told you I understood during our
 >phone conversation. What I don't understand is how it got there.

I suspect the reason you do not understand is that you look at
the area only as it is today and not across the ages,
geologically. I don't feel like this list would really be
interested in my taking up space to give a you an education in
geology and petrogenesis. Grab yourself some basic geology books
and books on rocks and minerals at the library, Ed, and open for
yourself a whole new world of wonder that is a lot more well
established and fact-based than this particular "Alien
Abduction" fiasco.

Do that, and you will learn the valuable lesson that anything as
common as chalcedony should not be mistaken for the 'flotsam or
jetsam" of a UFO crash.

 >I've been there, you haven't.

I've analyzed the only 'hard evidence' -- 7 on Mohs' scale :o) -
- you offer, and found it to be a very common substance. So, now
I have better things to do than to travel half way across the
continental U.S., rent a four-wheel-drive vehicle, and see one
wide-eyed, die-hard believer's Ufological 'Field of Dreams'.
Thanks, but no thanks.

 >>Another photo has a maybe 30-foot long, nondescript area circled
 >>that is labeled, "crash site".

 >>I see nothing but imagination to support such a claim.

 >There's nothing in the photo to prove that this is the crash site.

I was referring to the fact that you unequivocally describe it
as the crash site without a single bit of evidence, except the
claim that it matches an anonymous person's claim! If that's not
wishful thinking and highly subjective, what is it?

By the way, have you ever considered the possibility that
someone came across this place, decided that the chalcedony on
some of the rocks might easily be mistaken for glass by
believers, adding a few ambiguities to the route, to make it
seem like he is describing the route as it might have been over
half a century ago, and led you down the 'primrose path'.

 >...and the cameraman...said a craft crashed somewhere in this area.

You believe the, IMO, fictional 'camera man'. I suppose you
believe in Santa Clause and the tooth fairy, too. The alleged
camera man has not really even verified that the specific area
you claim as the crash site is where he is alleging a UFO
crashed, has he, ED? 'He' will likely never put his finger on a
specific area for reasons that, if you wanted to be objective
about this, you could easily guess. I suppose it is about time
for the pushers of this, IMO, hoax to declare that the alleged
camera man has recently 'passed on', too.

 >>Another photo is labeled "burned cottonwood tree", but nothing
 >>on the tree's remains give the slightest suggestion to me that
 >>anything extraordinary happened there.

 >You'll have to see it for yourself.

I saw the photo, and having seen diverse trees in the desert
burned and broken by lightening strikes, I don't need or want to
see it any closer. Where is your evidence a UFO caused there
over a half century ago, Ed?

 >Let me say this again. I believe my brother and I have
 >found the cameraman's crash site. There are many reasons
 >for this belief and finding that the material is chalcedony
 >doesn't change a thing, except it isn't polymer.

Anyone who could have looked at that chalcedony (even without
the aid of a loupe) and thought it was a UFO-formed polymer
(until I demonstrated otherwise) doesn't need a dose of active
imagination, so your beliefs do not carry a lot of weight with
me at this point.

So you believe it was a UFO crash site. Provide us some hard
evidence strongly suggesting that, or allow this to be relegated
to the folly file.

 >>By the way, Ed told this list that the person he and his brother
 >>consulted in New Mexico (Socorro) said he had no idea what the
 >>stuff on the rock(s) could be:
 >>
 >>>...we took a sample to him for a superficial analysis.
 >>
 >>>He couldn't identify the material and was somewhat surprised
 >>>that he couldn't. He examined the strange material with a light
 >>>enhanced magnifying scope he had on his belt and just shook his
 >>>head: "I don't know what this".

 >That's exactly what happened.

I suspect he was a bit turned off by the UFO crash tale you had
told him, and that he didn't want to waste the time of day
arguing with a true believer.

 >>Yet, on the phone Ed told me that the person in Socorro
 >>declared it to be a type of calcite. Even if I somehow got
 >>Ed's account on the phone confused, and Ed was referring to
 >>two different persons' comments, one might wonder why the
 >>interpretation (albeit incorrect) that it was a form of calcite
 >>was not noted in Ed's first account of this matter.

 >I took the material to the NM school of mines, gem examination
 >room, a man >named Avery. He identified the material as calcite
 >and we argued a bit because I'd never seen any calcite like
 >that, but he brushed me off with a " You can believe what you
 >want." I felt the information and matter incomplete.

And, just as I said, you did not report the more down-to-earth
comments of this person at the NM School of Mines to the List. A
serious researcher-investigator would have done so, even if
adding comments that he didn't take the comments to be accurate.

 >>The aforementioned precaution of saying absolutely nothing about
 >>the background of the sample(s) to a potential analyst is very
 >>important for multiple reasons. I will later explain if anyone
 >>needs an explanation. A mineralogist will certainly not think a
 >>sample like the ones Ed provided me to be strange at all. It
 >>would normally elicit no probing questions, anyhow, except maybe
 >>an incredulous, "You don't recognize what this is!?", if the
 >>researcher is the indignant type.

 >That's about the way it went. The problem is that he was
 >incorrect, and I knew he was incorrect, but he didn't budge an inch.

Common, Ed! Tell us how you knew he was incorrect! You admitted
to me that you hadn't even looked at the stuff with a loupe,
hadn't done a hardness test, hadn't even poured an easily
available acid solution like household vinegar on it to see if
it fizzed like calcite (calcium carbonate) does (in liberating
carbon dioxide) when vinegar poured upon it! You had consulted
him because you thought he might be an expert. Since you
admitted you didn't test for calcite, why didn't you believe
him? That looks very much like wishful thinking before science,
again!

 >>The real point of this little explicit discussion is the hope of
 >>discouraging the proliferation of unfounded rumors of mysterious
 >>UFO crash site evidence. Let us try our very best not to cloud
 >>with rumor a category of inquiry already burdened and sometimes
 >>made laughable by unfounded speculation and wishful thinking.
 >
 >Father, forgive me!

Maybe you should say, "List, my slip-up! My apology!", instead of being
sarcastic. It would be more to your credit, Ed.

 >>...private inquiry to a professional or
 >>professionals in an appropriate field of study (and one who has
 >>no knowledge of Ed's speculations about crash evidences) would
 >>have been a far better route to pursue first.

 >I don't think so. The information you've provided
 >has been an excellent contribution. Everyone has part of the truth.

Maybe in the minds of what I call "metaphizzlers", "true
believers", and "post modernists", but what if this whole UFO
crash episode is pure fiction? Would the perpetrators have even
a smidgen of the truth?

 >I want folks involved. Real adventure.

Yes, real adventure if you're 'fishing around' around for some
joker to declare that the chalcedony is hard evidence of a UFO
crash. Indeed!

 >>The fact that Ed did not notice what he calls a 'glass-like'
 >>appearance to the parts of rocks that were within the topsoil
 >>means absolutely nothing in the absence of a report by him of
 >>just how many pieces he lifted to check for that, and without an
 >>unequivocal statement that each examined piece was washed
 >>carefully before examination, because a host of things about
 >>soil can completely obscure the sub-vitreous luster of
 >>chalcedony that Ed mistook as being "glass-like".
 >
 >I tried to keep the site as virginal as possible. No rock picks
 >and only minor disturbance of top soil. I returned the rocks to
 >their exact location and position, except for the samples I
 >kept. It was my observation that the rocks I examined had no
 >material below the sand line. That's a fact, whether you like it
 >or not.

You sound suspiciously defensive.

The simple fact is that you did not answer my questions.

Once again, I ask: How many rocks did you check for chalcedony
beneath the soil line? How many of them did you carefully wash
off before deciding if any chalcedony was below the soil line?
You have deliberately skirted those questions in order to push
your position.

And, by the way, would you like to describe for us how a
crashing UFO forms growth phase atop growth phase of chalcedony
anywhere on rocks or anything else? :) -- and, please, why did
it not, likewise, form atop the soil?

 >>Even then,
 >>Ed's failure to recognize the now admitted chalcedony as at
 >>least a water-deposited mineral (I could write a lengthy
 >>discourse on how it got water-deposited long ago on those New
 >>Mexico desert rocks.) does not speak well of his prowess for
 >>careful observation.

 >Now here's the real problem. There is zero way that this
 >material could have been water deposited on this site and on
the >individual rocks on the site-some are three feet apart.

That is a deliberate distortion of fact, and you are being
dishonest in even saying that. You know quite well that it is
not "deposited on this site", but only upon certain areas of
certain rocks there.

Are you forgetting that you admitted that over the phone to me?

Perhaps you secretly hope prevent me from revealing the truth
about how it formed by saying:

 >Please don't write a lengthy discourse.

O.K., I'll grant your wish and write a short one that will
hopefully fill your geologic and petrologic vacuum:

You are not seeing these rocks in the context in which the
chalcedony naturally formed upon them over the ages when the
rocks were water-saturated and they were under ground. These
rocks were tectonically pushed up from underneath the surface
during the time those mountains in the area were pushed up. It
was once a relatively flat land. When the rocks were
underground, subsurface waters flowed through every crack made
in them during earlier stages of tectonic pressure. It flowed
for hundreds of thousands to millions of years (depending on the
area), slowly allowing growth phase upon growth phase (through
dry and wet periods) of chalcedony to form from molecular silica
dioxide being carried in the water.

After the chalcedony-bearing substrate was tectonically pushed
to the surface, it further broke apart along tectonically
created (and even chalcedony-bearing) fissures, aided over long
period by rains, flooding, freezing, extreme of cold and heat,
etc.

What you are finding are larger and smaller examples of the rock
that has in that way broken up.

The reason we see chalcedony formed on these particular rocks
(instead of calcite) is because this kind of pyroclastic rock is
very high in silica and quite low in calcium (unlike rocks
formed of marine sediments, like those around Carlsbad Caverns
in New Mexico).

But you will now ask, "Why so much in this area and not in
adjacent areas?"

Such situations occur under the condition wherein the now
surface-exposed rocks were in one of the underground areas
through which subsurface waters flowed more abundantly than in
the adjacent areas of possibly more solid rock and/or more
elevated rock (just we find underground, today). So, you will
find chalcedony on some surfaces of rock that, when underground,
had greater exposure to waters than did some other adjacent
areas. Also, if the adjacent rocks happen not to be this type
of pyroclastic rock, but are of the sedimentary type mentioned
earlier, what will accumulate in their cracks is calcite and not
chalcedony. Rainwater tends to dissolve the calcite in fissures
of surface rocks (especially in these days of increased acid
rain), so you would likely see very little, if any, sub-vitreous
calcitic growths remaining on them. Plain, simple, Petrology
101. :)

 >It would be a waste of your time...

Knowing your attitude and unwillingness to look at the facts and
learn, I probably am wasting my time!

 >...because one visit to the site would destroy your efforts.

No visit to the site could ever show me how chalcedony would be
formed by the crash of a UFO, real or fictional!

 >Just show me an example of an area three football fields covered
 >with agate.

Another propagandistic exaggeration and distortion of fact. Ed
knows quite well that the area is not covered in agate. Again,
it is found only on specific areas of certain rocks, as his
notes on the photos he sent me conclusively prove.

 >A better exercise would be to ask how a craft(UFO)
 >could make a deposit of chalcedony of this magnitude.

The chalcedony was not formed by the crash of a UFO, Ed. I've
just explained (short version) how it formed.

Hey, Ed,

Toss your fantasy UFOillogical 'all day sucker' in the circular
file (AKA, trash can).

You are surely not going to make 'suckers' out of the thinkers
on this List.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 10

              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:04:20 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:17:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:56:38 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>If we were indeed visited by aliens, we might expect to find
 >>structures created by them, however degraded.

 >>In my opinion we have inadvertantly found some on Mars, and the
 >>Moon has its share of anomalies as well. Such a discovery would
 >>have direct 'national security' aspects.

 >Why?

The potential to destabilize the status quo in all sorts of
ways. And I'm not just speculating. NASA had the Brookings
Institution in Washington, D.C. evaluate possibilities of ftutre
exploration of space back in the 60s. One of these was the
discovery of ET ruins on the Moon and/or Mars. I think the most
interesting conclusion (which I personally find extremely
flimsy), is that such a discovery would demoralize terrestrial
scientists (i.e., why pursue science when "others" have already
been there?)

I go into detail about this in my book "After the Martian
Apocalypse," due out from Simon & Schuster early next year. In
the meantime, I've devoted some space to this on my Cydonia
website:

http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

--Mac






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 10

                Re: Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03 - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:16:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:18:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03 - Goldstein


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 06:46:23 -0700
 >Subject: Blabbermouth News -- 05/10/03

 >BLABBERMOUTH NEWS
 >from the BMN Project on Government Blabbermouths
 >Volume 2003, Issue No. 01
 >May 10, 2003

<snip>

Hi Larry,

Well done. Usually you need a security clearance to access such
privileged material but you took the risk of prison to reveal
the true nature of blabbermouths. Is a blabbermouth a UFO - an
Unidentified `(if you don't know the person) Flapping Object
(the mouth)? If so, this answers all I have ever wanted to learn
about UFOs.


Thanks,

Josh









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   May > May 10

             Subject: DOI Appeal No. 2003-151 Snowballs Via The

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:45:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:21:55 -0400
Subject: Subject: DOI Appeal No. 2003-151 Snowballs Via The


From: Dan Pinchas <DPinchas@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:56:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Appeal No. 2003-151
To: osfoia@nbc.gov


TO: Secretary
ATTN: osfoia@nbc.gov
U. S. Department of the Interior
Washington, DC 20240

FROM: Dan Pinchas
Darnestown, Md.

DATE: May 10, 2003

It is my understanding that certain colleagues of researcher-
writer Larry W. Bryant have written to the DOI FOIA appeals
officer to express their view that your agency should grant Mr.
Bryant's appeal No. 2003-151 fully and immediately.

Please add me to that list of fellow citizens who have such high
regard for Mr. Bryant's role in, and publication credits with,
that body of research known as UFOlogy. In particular, my direct
knowledge of that role stems from my several years' editorship
of the "ORTK Forum" -- a newsletter published by the now-dormant
public-interest group Operation Right to Know. Mr. Bryant's
contributions of articles and essays to the Forum mirror what he
continues to produce for today's inquiring public. For him to be
stymied (financially) by your agency in his selfless pursuit
(and dissemination) of UFO-related news, information, and
commentary would weaken the spirit of the U. S. Freedom of
Information Act, would place a chilling effect on the future of
his work, and would deprive the public full access to his
expected level of production.

Should you choose to reject his appeal, Mr. Bryant will have my
full approval to include this statement within any resultant
lawsuit to compel your overdue recognition of his "journalistic"
FOIA requester status.


Dan Pinchas







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                 Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:02:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:34:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Shough


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:18:29 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website

 >>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:13:56 +0100
 >>Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website

 >>CLASSIC CASE NOW ON-LINE

 >>The RAF Lakenheath-Bentwaters 'radar visual' incident of 1956
 >>has long been regarded as one of the classic cases in the annals
 >>of UFOlogy.

 >>This is one of the few incidents classified as 'unexplained' by
 >>the 1969 Colorado University UFO study commissioned by the US
 >>Air Force, which conceded that "the probability that at least
 >>one genuine UFO was involved appears to be fairly high."

 >>But the true extent and complex nature of the events in East
 >>Anglia have never been fully revealed, and divining the truth
 >>from a mass of contradictory evidence has confounded even the
 >>most dedicated of UFO researchers.

 >>Now for the first time in UFOlogical history, a website
 >>dedicated to an in-depth re-investigation of a classic case is
 >>available on-line at:

 >>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

<snip>

 >Congratulations on an excellent website Martin. Is there any
 >chance of including data on minor Earth tremours, landslips
 >quakes etc so these too can be ruled out of the equation.

 >Some are thinking that there was a sea coast land slip near or
 >at the time causing geomagnetic electrical oddness thereabouts.
 >Details of the underlying geophysic to various depths of the
 >area may also be very useful and Tidal heights etc.

 >Also wondering if the occurence coincides with say an earthquake
 >elsewhere on Earth or any other large occurence of any
 >description at or near the time.

 >Many will no doubt visit the website, including myself, on many
 >occasions for what is an excellent read.


Hi Colin,

Thankyou, I think. On behalf of all of us involved, I hope people
will study it and get something of value from it - and put something
of value into it as well. As stated it is an open-ended project and
we know that there's still information out there . . .

Correlating the sightings with earth tremors and tide tables
will I'm afraid not be top of my list, but your joke (it seems
to me) conceals a serious point. "Unknowns", per se, are not
much use to anybody. To scientists, something that could be
anything is as good as nothing. Potentially interesting events
are encircled by bottomless moats of maybes that radar
meteorologists, say, will only be motivated to step across when
that big empty pit of nothings has been filled up.

In approaching a conventional problem a great deal is taken as
"understood". The moat is shallow and there are plenty of others
planning or building causeways; plenty of camaraderie and
rivalry; lots of comfy social structure. Approaching the UFO
question means a lonely step out over an abyss.

That's why it's important to try to cover all bases. One needs
to be inventive in doing so, too, remembering the John Stuart
Mill dictum (wasn't it he?) that an argument is not answered
until it's answered at its best. So it isn't a finger-exercise.
I'm sure I don't do it with sufficient expertise or authority,
but it has to be done. Every time a justifiably sceptical
scientist comes to the problem with a question that can't be
answered exhaustively in like terms, the encounter will leave a
bad taste and he or she is less likely to be back.

Like it or not, a "UFO" is presently only the negative image of
all that it isn't, and only by making that negative image as
well defined as possible will the true shape of the "core"
phenomenon (given that there is one) finally emerge - if not in
this case then in others like it that are given "the FBI
treatment" (a la Hynek) by investigators as dogged as Dave
Clarke.


Cheers

Martin





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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rubtsov

From: Vladimir Rubtsov <tolimak@mail.ru>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:03:12 +0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:38:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rubtsov


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:10:35 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

Dear Mr. Rogers,

 >Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

This thesis sounds good and even poetical... but unfortunately
it is wrong. A simple counter-example: can you find a more
extraordinary claim than, say, the idea that the electron is
both a particle and a wave? And nonetheless, it may be proved
with the help of quite "ordinary" - even not too sophisticated -
  physical experiments. In fact, any scientific claim, however
unusual, needs for its acceptance nothing but a
_normal_scientific_proof_. Otherwise, science could not exist at
all. (I realize, of course, that the question whether ufology in
general and "abductology" in particular could be considered as
"science" in any definite sense of this word remains open at
best!)

Warmest regards,

Vladimir Rubtsov, Ph.D.,
Director, Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena (RIAP)
http://www.geocities.com/riap777/





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              Chasing Papers On Andrews AFB's 7/26/02 UFO Chase

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:50:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:42:00 -0400
Subject: Chasing Papers On Andrews AFB's 7/26/02 UFO Chase


"Government secrecy for secrecy's sake defrauds and endangers
the notion of self-government." -- Larry W. Bryant (April 24,
2003)

The FOIA folks at the FAA (aka the Feign Awareness Agency) have
let me know I finally have their attention on the issue of what
came a-flyin' through the D.C.-area skies in the wee hours of
July 26, 2002. And their slim package of documents that arrived
in my mail on May 9, 2003, via CERTIFIED-RETURN-RECEIPT-
  REQUESTED dispatch (complete with a formal invitation to appeal
their partial "no records" determination as to my (aging) FOIA
request of Dec. 5, 2002), certainly keeps the UFO-access pot a-
  boilin' over.

Here are some key excerpts from their two-page cover letter to
me of May 2, 2003, penned by FAA Director of Air Traffic Bill G.
Peacock, from their Washington headquarters:

"This responds to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA 2003-
003766) request dated December 5, 2002. Your request sought
documents regarding a UFO incident in the Waldorf, Maryland,
area on July 26, 2002. The Air Traffic Planning and Procedures
organization is responding to numbers 1, 2, and 4 of your FOIA
request.

"We understand that your request has also been assigned to the
Federal Aviation's (FAA) Eastern Region (numbers 1, 2, and 4)
and the FOIA Program Staff (number 3). These offices will be
responding directly to you.

"Number 1 of your request sought all records regarding a July
26, 2002, Waldorf, Maryland, incident that the FAA has shared
with the National Institute for Discovery Science.

"Number 4 of your request sought all FAA-United States Air Force
interaction/coordination documents relating to the Waldorf, Maryland,
incident.

"A records search was conducted in the following offices within
the Air Traffic organization: the Special Operations Division,
the Investigations and Analysis Branch of the Investigations
Division, and the Planning, Information, and Analysis Division.
These offices did not find any documents on file pertaining to
numbers 1 and 4 of your request.

"Number 2 of your request sought the entire contents of the FAA
FOIA case file being maintained regarding the Waldorf, Maryland,
incident.

"A search conducted in the Air Traffic's Investigations Division
resulted in one FOIA request and appeal from Ms. Joan Woodward.
Enclosed are copies of the contents of those files."

In her case of "Be Careful What You Wish for...", Virginia-based
researcher Woodward had FOIA'ed the FAA's director of air
traffic back on July 31, 2002. Taking their own sweet time to
process her request, the agency finally got around to it on Nov.
5, 2002, in the form of a two-page kiss-off letter that
declared, in part:

"This letter responds to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA
2002-7386) request dated July 31, 2002. Your request sought
copies of the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Form 7230-
4, Daily Record of Facility Operations, from three facilities.
Your request also sought air traffic other than routine
commercial flight (if any) that was tracked by the air route
traffic control center in Leesburg, VA, concerning an incident
around Andrews Air Force Base, near Washington, DC, on July 26,
2002.

"Enclosed are copies of FAA Form 7230-4 from the following
facilities: l) Washington-Dulles Airport Traffic Control Tower;
2) Ronald Reagan Washington National Approach Control facility;
and 3) Andrews Air Force Base Approach Control facility.

"There are no records concerning an unusual air traffic flight
on July 26, 2002, in the vicinity of Washington, DC."

Any lay recipient of these FAA-provided forms will find her head
a-buzzin' over their contents' telegraphic, abbreviation-laden
style of recording operational events and concerns. An excerpt:
"[Time] 1145 -- NYG APPROACH & TOWER OPEN; [TIME] 0500 -- NEAD
CALLED FOR BRAVE SCRAMBLE WITHIN REDSKIN CAP. DCA BLOCKING FROM
4000MSL."

Nevertheless, Woodward was able to wade through this swamp of
computer-generated formese in order to file an appeal of the agency's
partial "no records" determination. The third-numbered paragraph of her
Dec. 2, 2002, letter reads:

"3. The ADW/Andrews Form 7230-4 is oddly truncated with no
listed printout attached. The DCA form shows two scrambles from
Andrews at 0500 UTC and at 2112 UTC, and I request a printout of
the 'Daily Record of Operation for ADW for 07/26/02' which is
not attached to the ADW FAA form 7230-4. In short, I would like
to know how many aircraft departed Andrews between 0004 and 0007
UTC."

Again, taking their sweet time to act on Woodward's appeal, the
agency, in the person of analyst Tiffany Hodge, forwarded it, on
March 5, 2003, to FOIA coordinator Josie M. Clark -- with the
following instruction:

"We are remanding the above subject FOIA request to your office
for reconsideration. Based on your response letter and the
information in Ms. Woodward's request for reconsideration,
please have your program office provide an additional search for
documents. If no records is still the determination after an
additional search, please provide a detailed explanation (i.e.,
documents destroyed, records retention) to the requester. Please
respond directly to Mr. [sic] Woodward. If you have any
questions, please let me know."

There, the (revealed) paper trail comes to an end (unless, of
course, Woodward has received any worthwhile direct reply from
coordinator Clark). As I await the FOIA Program Staff's response
to my query number 2 (whereby we might eventually know the final
outcome of the Woodward probe), you may wish to add this update
to your catalog of UFOIA paper-chase accounts.

Stay tuned.






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              Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:11:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:43:16 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White


 >From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

<snip>

 >Sadly enough, I agree. I am haunted by what happened
 >during the War of the Worlds radio broadcasts.

Things are very different today. We've had half a century of
frequent UFO sightings, giving ample time for the public to
realize that the intentions of the occupants are at least not to
stage a huge invasion. We now have about 80% of the population
believing that government is witholding information about UFOs,
and about 50% believing UFOs are alien craft.

I suggest that humanity is very well equipped to receive the
news and take it in stride. In the group of Disclosure Project
witnesses, I haven't heard of any of them "freaking out" because
they know the truth.


Eleanor White







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                  Re: 'The Ultimate Alien Agenda' (Review)

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:44:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 'The Ultimate Alien Agenda' (Review)


'The Ultimate Alien Agenda' by James Walden

review by Mac Tonnies

"The Ultimate Alien Agenda" is a model study of how not to
conduct a study of perceived alien encounters. Frequently
approaching self-parody, Walden begins his chronicle by
reporting an atypical "bedroom visitation," followed by an
account of his plunge into suicidal despair. The aliens,
according to Walden, are actually "interdimensional" (although
Walden chooses not to tell us what this actually means) and
fixated on humans' sex-lives for psychic nourishment (again,
this isn't explained, but we're assured it has something to do
with "vibrations"; it bears noting that Walden's "career" is
psychic channeling).

Halfway through the book, Walden reveals that he's gay. While
this would be irrelevant in virtually any other narrative,
readers have to wonder if Walden's obviously conflicted
sexuality and account of childhood molestation (recounted in
detail) have anything to do with his "memories" of being
strapped to a medical examination table and forced to ejaculate.

This book is disturbing in that it reveals a genuinely tormented
individual who happily places himself in the hands of a
hypnosis-happy "abduction researcher" instead of consulting with
a mental health professional. The unfortunate result is an
unhelpful brew of New Age rumination: Walden realizes he's a
repressed alien-human "hybrid"; Walden channels a dinosaur-like
"interdimensional" god who revels in memories of his reign in
ancient Egypt; Walden recognizes himself as nothing less than an
ambassador for a reptilian species who, for reasons unexplained,
are relinquishing control of the Earth to a burgeoning
population of amnesiac "hybrids."

Rambling, inarticulate and more than a little messiahnic, "The
Ultimate Alien Agenda" is one of the most credulous, poorly
written books in the genre. And that's no easy feat.

UFO books galore:
http://www.mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:33:30 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:46:13 EDT
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer
 >>>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>>congratulations - you get an "A".

 ><snip>

 >>I was wondering this: Of all the UFO videos that you have
 >>analized in your research is there a single video that have
 >>proved to you to be an authentic UFO ? That is in the strict
 >>sense of the word meaning you discarded it was a bird, balloon,
 >>airplane or blimp etc. concluding it was unknown for you ?
 >
 >>I have visited your website and I see that you have made an
 >>extensive research and therefore I guess you had access to many
 >>alleged UFO footages for analysis. So I'm curious about this and
 >>will appreciate your comments.

 >If I don't know what it is, Santiago, it is unidentified... for
 >the moment. I continue to analyze until I find the truth. If
 >something is unknown, I never rule out any possible explanation
 >including the possibility it was a bird, balloon, airplane,
 >blimp, etc.


Amy,

I'm sorry but you didn't answer my question and it's important.
Have you found in your whole research a single UFO video that
you could'nt explain as any known object : balloon, blimp,
airplane, bird, insect etc. And also that it was not FAKED
meaning imposing images, doctored, tampered whatever you may
call it getting to the conclusion that the object presented on
the footage could not be finally explained by you at least not
to your knowledge.

 >Santiago, how do you _prove_ something is authentic if you don't
 >know what it is?

You did'nt get the meaning of my expression Amy. In Ufology we
call a UFO footage authentic or at least legitimate when we
concluded after certain studies and analysis that it was not
faked by a deliberated manipulation. That conclusion does'nt
mean that the object in discussion is finally recognized as a
craft from other world or anything like that. Don't get me
wrong. But once discarded the posibility of a fake and also
other posibilities like I mentioned before we say this footage
is authentic But the object in question still remains
unexplained : a UFO.

I saw in your study only cases of missunderstanding known
objects and artifacts as UFOs. But I did'nt see any example of
faked UFO videos wich make me think that perhaps you have not
made any analysis of this kind yet or maybe you are not
interested or whatever.

We the ufologists have to accomplish all the steps of evaluation
and analysis when confronting a new UFO video followed by a
testimonial. And by a rule one of the first priorities is to
establish that the footage is not a hoax or a clever forgery.
This will dictate to us that we can trust in the witness. Then
we proceed to discard other posibilties like you mentioned
balloons etc.

In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
in your reseach ?


  I will wait your straight answer to this because I'm very
interested to know how you apply your criteria in these studies.
But please let's talk straight and clear avoiding the rhetoric.

Thank you,

Santiago.






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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:46:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:58:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Vladimir Rubtsov <tolimak@mail.ru>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:03:12 +0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:10:35 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash


 >>Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 >This thesis sounds good and even poetical... but unfortunately
 >it is wrong. A simple counter-example: can you find a more
 >extraordinary claim than, say, the idea that the electron is
 >both a particle and a wave? And nonetheless, it may be proved
 >with the help of quite "ordinary" - even not too sophisticated -
 >physical experiments. In fact, any scientific claim, however
 >unusual, needs for its acceptance nothing but a
 >_normal_scientific_proof_. Otherwise, science could not exist at
 >all. (I realize, of course, that the question whether ufology in
 >general and "abductology" in particular could be considered as
 >"science" in any definite sense of this word remains open at
 >best!)


Fair enough. I shall clarify for the list:

The claim that aliens are habitually visiting the earth
(crashing into our deserts, abducting humans, mutilating cattle,
carving crop circles in wheat fields, et al.) requires
extraordinary evidence.

The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
evidence. Alien bases on the Moon, Mars, underground, aliens
abducting us, mutilating us and our cattle, are some fairly wild
ideas. Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound person
to believe them.

Because the people who tell such stories seem sincere? Because
they have no reason to lie?

I really hope they have more proof than that. Sadly, they
usually don't.


Ian Rogers







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             Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:52:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:00:34 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:11:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 ><snip>

 >>Sadly enough, I agree. I am haunted by what happened
 >>during the War of the Worlds radio broadcasts.

 >Things are very different today. We've had half a century of
 >frequent UFO sightings, giving ample time for the public to
 >realize that the intentions of the occupants are at least not to
 >stage a huge invasion. We now have about 80% of the population
 >believing that government is witholding information about UFOs,
 >and about 50% believing UFOs are alien craft.

And how do we know that these aliens (assuming they exist) are
not planning to invade us....? This statement is based on what
knowledge?


Ian Rogers








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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:06:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:02:54 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:55:36 -0800
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?


<snip>

 >John, there is another reason.

 >The Clementine mission was a joint effort between the BMDO
 >(Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) and NASA. They wanted
 >to qualify light weight imaging sensors and component
 >technologies for the next generation of DoD spacecraft.

Bill, Listers,

How about a more common thought? The BMDO doesn't want to
release the photos because it could tell somebody exactly what
these sensors are capable of seeing/resolving.

 >The BMDO mission includes Theater missile defense and National
 >missile defense as well as advanced technology development.

 >It is possible that this survey of the moon was intended to
 >locate possible construction sites for ballistic missile launch
 >facilities.

You would have various logistical problems launching ICBMs from
the moon to the earth... better then using precious resources on
that would be to build an orbital platform... ala FOBS.


Cheers,

Robert






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:29:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:04:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:46:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >It's all such a tight-knit series of statements that preclude
 >any actual "explanations." Usually because they aren't any. Most
 >of this stuff you're just supposed to accept with a grain of
 >salt ... and if you don't, well, you're just a 'skeptic' -- as
 >if being skeptical were a bad thing. Frankly, I think we have
 >enough believers in this field. What we need is more people with
 >objectivity.

 >And I have to ask: AIDS as a laboratory experiment is a popular
 >cnspiracy theory; what evidence do you have that it can all be
 >attributed to this one person? Something more than a secret
 >government source you can't name, I hope.


AIDS as a laboratory creation:

http://www.boydgraves.com
http://www.tetrahedron.org

Suppressed cancer treatments:

The Burzynski Breakthrough by Thomas Elias ISBN: 0938530666
http://www.cancer-coverup.com (Kathleen Deoul, cesium treatment)

.... for starters, I have to rush off to work at the moment -
  I'll send more later.


Eleanor White







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                     Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:51:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:06:08 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gates


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:20:24 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples


<boulder sized brevity snip here>

 >>Even then,
 >>Ed's failure to recognize the now admitted chalcedony as at
 >>least a water-deposited mineral (I could write a lengthy
 >>discourse on how it got water-deposited long ago on those New
 >>Mexico desert rocks.) does not speak well of his prowess for
 >>careful observation.

 >Now here's the real problem. There is zero way that this
 >material could have been water deposited on this site and on the
 >individual rocks on the site-some are three feet apart. Please
 >don't write a lengthy discourse. It would be a waste of your
 >time because one visit to the site would destroy your efforts.
 >Just show me an example of an area three football fields covered
 >with agate. A better exercise would be to ask how a craft(UFO)
 >could make a deposit of chalcedony of this magnitude.

Hi Ed,

Seeing deposits of various rocks over the years in various areas
doesn't raise a red flag on this one. One area I know has
obsidian scattered in an area about two football fields. Either
side and up and down has no trace. Doesn't mean ET crashed, just
where the stuff was on the surface. I would suspect if time was
spent in the area you would find exactly where this chalcedony
deposit came from, whether undergound or somewhere in the
vicinity.

That being said what exactly was the time line on the camerman
drawings? As I recall the camerman released some crude drawings
that were verified by some researchers on the ground. Somebody
took pictures of the site and the camerman fingered those
pictures as the location, then Ray released the enhanced site
drawings.

The upshot on the camerman was that he lived in Florida, was 86
years old or thereabouts in the mid 90s, had filmed Elvis at an
outdoor concert when the Universal camera people were on strike
(but not to be confused with some other camera guy who filmed
elvis) had polio or some disease in one of his legs, and had
actually talked to Phillip Mantle and others on the phone,
although no independent researchers have apparently "actually"
met him. This short paragraph for those who may not recall.


Cheers,

Robert








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                        Re: UFOs In Africa? - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:30:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:09:11 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Cammack


 >From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
 >Subject: UFOs In Africa?

 >I am asking your help once more.

 >I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
 >countries in Africa.

 >If you could help me, I will appreciate it.


The books to get are those by the late Cynthia Hind, who lived
in Harare, Zimbabwe. She catalogued a number of good cases. She
also produced a monthly newsletter.

There was also a young man in Tanzania who wrote to us last
year, looking for Africa UFO info, and he may have collected
some new info.


Good Luck!

Diana Cammack
Cape Town







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:19:22 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>If I don't know what it is, Santiago, it is unidentified... for
 >>the moment. I continue to analyze until I find the truth. If
 >>something is unknown, I never rule out any possible explanation
 >>including the possibility it was a bird, balloon, airplane,
 >>blimp, etc.

<snip>

 >In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
 >authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
 >collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
 >Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
 >in your reseach ?

I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
further study.

 >I will wait your straight answer to this because I'm very
 >interested to know how you apply your criteria in these studies.
 >But please let's talk straight and clear avoiding the rhetoric.

I _am_ talking straight, Santiago. I'm just not saying what you
want me to say. Take it or leave it.


A. Hebert







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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:57:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:22:15 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:59:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer

 >>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>congratulations - you get an "A".

<snip>

Hi Amy, All,

Your response to my post gets a bit 'personal' in places.
Although I'd much rather discuss 'UFO' related issues, I
find that I have to deal with your unwarranted sniping.

Oh well...  ;)

 >>They were found to be 'genuine unknowns.' ie; not mylar
 >>balloons, birds, airplanes or out of focus pie plates etc. For
 >>years I had the material posted on the web both at the old
 >>Intruders Foundation website (along with a photocopy of Jeff
 >>Saino's report) and also at Tommy King's old OMNI video archive
 >>website. List veterans such as Bill Hamilton, Tom King, Ray
 >>Sanford (and a couple of others that have posted in the past,)
 >>have all been capturing anomalous aerial objects (on video
 >>and film) for many years.

 >John, how does one define a "genuine unknown"?

'Unknown' in _this_ instance means; not a balloon, airplane, bird
or any of the other ordinary things/objects that are usually
seen in the sky. A "UFO". As in; unidentified flying object.

 >How can anyone say what something is not if they don't even
 >know what it is? If it's unknown,

Through a simple process of elimination, Amy. For example; 'if'
the image of the recorded object is clear enough to allow it, any
observer will be able to tell if the object doesn't have engines,
propellers or wings. That being the case, it's safe to eliminate
'airplane' as an explanation. Ditto the process for eliminating
birds, balloons, hub caps etc as an explanation. On video it is
possible to observe unusual or anomalous flight characteristics.
Add freak flight characteristics to an image of an 'unknown'
flying object and you have a "genuine unknown."

A _U.F.O._

 >It's either known or unknown, identified or unidentified. You can
 >have it both ways.

I 'assume' that you meant to say; "I (can't) have it both
ways."

Of course it is either 'known' or 'unknown.' You state the obvious.
My pictures and video footage was submitted for analysis by
experts. (Not self-taught amateurs, - no offense.) They found
that the material I submitted depicted an 'unknown' (unidentified)
aerial object. They arrived at that conclusion by systematically
eliminating as many ordinary/prosaic objects as they could. No
one called them 'spaceships' or claimed they were from 'another
world.' What they said was; the objects captured on film or video
represented objects that were 'there' and which could not be
identified as anything 'known'. Ergo, 'unknown.'

You seem to be having some difficulty with the whole concept of
an 'unknown/unidentified' flying object.' Or, unidentified aerial
object, which ever term(s) you prefer. Also, it hasn't escaped
my notice and that of others, that you haven't given Santiago
a 'straight' answer to any of his straight forward/simple
questions.

Amy, nobody is saying that the objects (as recorded,) are
'space-ships' or from 'other worlds.' So I don't quite understand
your evasiveness (answering questions with questions) or what
your difficulty is with understanding what is meant by our use
of the term 'unknown.'

I wrote:

 >>You need to 'balance' your lesson with material that has not
 >>been faked or recorded intentionally out of focus in order to
 >>deceive.

You respond:

 >John, nothing has been faked. It's kinda hard to "fake" a Mylar
 >balloon while at the same time clearly identifying it as such.

Again, I 'assume' that you are compiling a set of pictures
and video of "known" (identified) flying objects in order to
be able to tell them apart from objects which cannot be
identified. ie; 'UFOs.' Or else why go through all the trouble!

If the purpose of your pictures is to use them in 'comparison'
to pictures of an 'unknown' flying object, then your pictures
are of a 'fake' UFO' A picture to be compared to other pictures
of 'UFOs' as we use the term to describe a 'genuine unknown/
unidentified' aerial object.

You are 'defensive' in your responses. Nobody is calling you
a faker or deceptive. I was merely 'identifying' your pictures
for what they are... depictions of 'fake' UFOs. You challenge
people to identify your pix, Amy. There has to be some
reason for that. Your pix are intended to be compared to
existing photos/video of objects that have been identified
as 'unknown'. You have demonstrated that you have a
problem understanding what is meant by the term when I
or some other List member has used it.  Instead of responding
directly to what is being said/asked you answer our questions
or comments with more questions. A 'question' is not an
answer.

 >And nothing has been recorded intentionally out of focus in an
 >effort to deceive. I aim the camera and let it run to see how it
 >operates under certain conditions. If the image becomes blurred,
 >I study the causes.

Gee, you must be trying to 'prove' something.

Amy, a disgruntled former believer does not an honest or
good skeptic make. When some folks find out that they were
fooled or deceived, the shame and anger they feel causes
them to bounce to the position which stands in complete polar
opposition to where they started out from. That is basically
what happened with you. You got snookered/fooled by a
couple of people, you disappeared for awhile, and then you
returned as a 'born again' skeptic. And a fierce one at that.
You took the strength and energy of your initial 'belief' and
put a new dress on it. From 'believer' to 'skeptic.'

You still 'believe' only it's now in the opposite of what it used
to be. Just remember the old saying:

"You can put all the lipstick and make-up you want to on a
hog and it will still be a hog." (Unless you've had a few drinks.
In which case the pig will look gorgeous!)

 >I do not deceive, I fight deception. What do you do?

What are you _implying_ I do?

Cheap shot, Amy. You swipe at me. Did I hit a nerve? I didn't
mean to. I was merely trying to ascertain if you were going to
include any images of "UFOs" among the many 'known' ones you are
using to quiz/educate list members with.

 >>Contact Tommy King or Bruce Maccabee privately and ask them for
 >>their permission to use some examples of the many
 >>_genuinely_anomalous_ aerial objects that they have archived at
 >>their respective web sites.

 >I've already contacted both gentlemen.

Excellent!

 >>Otherwise, this whole exercise is a 'one-sided' lesson.

 >Only to those who lack depth perception. ;>

No, to anyone who wishes to learn how to tell the difference
between images of 'known' objects and unidentified/unknown ones.

'Wink' backatcha.


John Velez






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   May > May 11

                       Re: Is Someone There? - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:22:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:38:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Is Someone There? - Cammack


 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:15:42 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Is Someone There?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 04:50:02 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Is Someone There?

 >>>Source: The Coloradoan - Fort Collins, Colorado

 >>>http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030504/lifestyle/240494.html

 >>>Sunday, May 4, 2003

 >>>Is someone there?

 >><snip>

 >>>>At least twice, Romanek has awakened with rows and rows of
 >>>equations he has written spread out in front of him.
 >>>Mathematicians have said that the equations have to do with
 >>>high-level concepts in quantum physics such as wormholes, zero
 >>>point energy and element 115, Romanek said.

 >>- - -
 >
 >>Hello Stan, list:

 >>I hope Stan Romanek was not misquoted here. Newspapers are famous
 >>for enhancing stories, but this is important.

 >>All the top scientists looked at the equations which a dyslexic
 >>man came up with. Can anyone expand on that? Did Stan write them
 >>out in the presence of these top scientists? Can we have some of
 >>their names and where they work, to ensure they are not
 >>fictitious?

 >>Perhaps more interesting! Which mathematicians in particular
 >>[names, affiliations, CVs] determined that the equations had to
 >>do with the highly Lazaresque Element 115?
 >>...

 >Larry,

 >As I recall from the video, only two qualified people in the
 >field gave their interpretations of the equations (in the video,
 >anyway), one of them being Jack Kasher,
 >physicist/astronomer/ufologist from U Nebraska at Omaha. They
 >made sense out of most of the symbology. For example, the fine
 >structure constant was involved, which Romanek shouldn't have
 >known about with his non-physics background.


Why not get a peer reviewed journal, such as Jrnl Scientific
Exploration, to produce the equations and get input from
specialists about their validity and implications? Why confine
them to two people?


Diana Cammack







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   May > May 11

                     Larry Bryant's Journalistic Status

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:47:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:32:40 -0400
Subject: Larry Bryant's Journalistic Status


TO: Mr. William W. Wolf
     U.S. Department of the Interior
     FOIA Appeals Officer
     1849 C Street, N.W.
     Washington, DC 20240

SUBJECT: The Journalistic Status of Mr. Larry W. Bryant

FROM: Jess E. Stewart
       President, Woodford Memorial Editions, Inc.
       P.O. Box 55085
       Seattle, WA 98155

DATE: 07 May 2003

Yes, I wholeheartedly support Mr. Larry W. Bryant's (2003--151)
appeal to be classified as a bona fide free-lance journalist. He
has contributed five times to my Woodford Memorial publishing
company by giving us an authoritative piece as introduction of
five of our books. Mr. Bryant, being the Administrator of the
Woodford estate, further documented his introductions. Not only
that, Mr. Bryant rescued from oblivion the last book manuscript
of Jack Woodford and sent it to me.

I understand that Mr. Bryant wrote to you for the purpose of
acquiring a records-search-fee waiver. If there seems to be some
question as to Mr. Bryant's being a bona fide free lance writer,
I have known him as such for twenty-seven years. I can tell you
that in 1976 we negotiated about getting that last book mss of
Woodford's published, which in due time was made ready for the
trade. At that time, Mr. Bryant referred me to one of his
articles in a national magazine.

I can supply copies of our books that have the writings of Mr.
Bryant, with the exception of the letters book, which has long
been out of print, if you so desire:

"Jack Woodford on Writing"; "Trial and Error"; "How to Make Your
Friends and Murder Your Enemies"; "My Years with Capone."

In the 1990s I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Bryant out here
in Seattle, and we met previous to that in Washington, DC when
he helped me get a photo of Woodford's last typewriter.

I hope the above helps to convince you that Mr. Bryant is who he
says he is.


Sincerely,

Jess E. Stewart







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             Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:10:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:43:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Kaeser


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:11:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

<snip>

 >Things are very different today. We've had half a century of
 >frequent UFO sightings, giving ample time for the public to
 >realize that the intentions of the occupants are at least not to
 >stage a huge invasion. We now have about 80% of the population
 >believing that government is witholding information about UFOs,
 >and about 50% believing UFOs are alien craft.


Eleanor-

Where do these percentages come from? I hope they're not simple
extrapolations from the rather old "Roper" poll taken a few
years back. Polling and statistics can often be utilized to
one's advantage, so the provenance of such claims should always
be fully disclosed to carry much weight. Unfortunately, "stats"
have come to take on a life of their own on the Internet.

Steve







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                        Re: Is Someone There? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 04:23:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:45:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Is Someone There? - Hatch


 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:15:42 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Is Someone There?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 04:50:02 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Is Someone There?

 >>>Source: The Coloradoan - Fort Collins, Colorado

 >>http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030504/lifestyle/240494.html

 >>>Sunday, May 4, 2003

 >>>Is someone there?

 >><snip>

 >>>"I have a learning disability. I'm severely dyslexic. When I
 >>>went through the regression and came out with these equations,
 >>>I was floored," Romanek said. "All of the top scientists have
 >>>looked at these."

 >>>At least twice, Romanek has awakened with rows and rows of
 >>>equations he has written spread out in front of him.
 >>>Mathematicians have said that the equations have to do with
 >>>high-level concepts in quantum physics such as wormholes, zero
 >>>point energy and element 115, Romanek said.

 >>- - -

 >>Hello Stan, list:

 >>I hope Stan Romanek was not misquoted here. Newspapers are famous
 >>for enhancing stories, but this is important.

 >>All the top scientists looked at the equations which a dyslexic
 >>man came up with. Can anyone expand on that? Did Stan write them
 >>out in the presence of these top scientists? Can we have some of
 >>their names and where they work, to ensure they are not
 >>fictitious?

 >>Perhaps more interesting! Which mathematicians in particular
 >>[names, affiliations, CVs] determined that the equations had to
 >>do with the highly Lazaresque Element 115?
 >>...

 >Larry,

 >It was more physics than math, I'd say. There's an excellent
 >video on Romanek's experiences, made, I think, at the Laughlin
 >conference a few months ago. It's been a month since I viewed
 >much of it, though.

 >As I recall from the video, only two qualified people in the
 >field gave their interpretations of the equations (in the video,
 >anyway), one of them being Jack Kasher,
 >physicist/astronomer/ufologist from U Nebraska at Omaha. They
 >made sense out of most of the symbology. For example, the fine
 >structure constant was involved, which Romanek shouldn't have
 >known about with his non-physics background.

 >Of course, it needn't have made entire sense, since the UFO
 >aliens involved could have fed him as much gobble-de-gook as
 >they wished.

 >There were two different and independent video tapes taken of
 >the UFOs that appeared in the vicinity (Red Rocks, CO) shortly
 >before Romanek had one of his (abduction?) experiences, as I
 >recall. Perhaps others who have the Laughlin Romanek video on
 >hand can amplify or correct this.


Hello Jim:

Perhaps it was this video that suggested scientific involvement.

Its quite a stretch to start with Jack Kasher, with his well
known interest in UFOs, and to wind up with "All the top
scientists"... and then onward to mathematicians with element
115 theories.

Maybe Bob Lazar can name the mathematicians.


Best

- Larry







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 04:09:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:41:43 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:53:38 -0500
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:24:23 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>Browsing for "clementine mission" + "missing images" and found
 >>several sites including this one:

 >>http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/Projects/Clementine/nasaclem/archiv
 >e/arcsis.html

 >>Scanning that site for "missing images" I found some interesting
 >>file names like:

 >>MISSINDX.TAB - Table of missing images. Image file names
 >>in this directory were lost during the active fight projects
 >>due to a variety of problems including: images not properly
 >>transmitted to Earth, image files lost between ground
 >>receiving station and mission operations center. Images
 >>listed in this directory can not be recovered.

 >>MISSINDX.LBL - Detached PDS label that describes the
 >>MISSINDX.TAB file.
 >>MISSINDX.HDR - Header file used for spread sheet
 >>applications for the missing image index file. This file
 >>contains a single line that gives heading names to each row
 >>in the missing image index file.
 >>Maybe a good browse for just those names might turn something
 >>up.

 >>I tried the first one MISSINDX.TAB and only turned up a few
 >>sites. This is one of them, describing a CD-ROM of the archived
 >>images:

 >>http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/clemcdinfo.html

 >>I looks like an older document (1990s) but maybe the CD-ROM is
 >>still available somewhere.

 >Hi Larry, list

 >You might be able to get a copy from the addresses provided on
 >the above webpage.

 >The PDS Imaging Node
 >Branch of Astrogeology
 >United States Geological Survey
 >2255 North Gemini Drive
 >Flagstaff, AZ 86002
 >e-mail: eeliason@sirius.wr.usgs.gov
 >
 >Telephone: (602) 556-7113

 >or

 >PDS NAIF Node
 >MS 301-125L
 >Jet Propulsion Laboratory
 >California Institute of Technology
 >4800 Oak Grove Drive
 >Pasadena, CA 91109
 >Internet e-mail: cacton@naif.jpl.nasa.gov
 >Telephone: (818) 354-3869



Hi Terry:

I'm not personally pursuing this matter, but somebody suggesting
a conspiracy might want to.

It would be interesting to see just what the majority of missing
images were supposed to be... the lunar far-side, or a random
mixture of different places and things. A breakdown of numbers
might be useful:

As in number and percentage of missing images of:

a) Lunar front-side (visible from Earth)
b) Lunar backside (not seen from Earth)
c) Lunar polar areas poorly seen from here.
d) Attempted shots of Earth from lunar orbit.
e) All others. (space, other planets etc.)

I suppose that's asking a lot, but at least we could compare the
totals above to the 23,000 lost images mentioned earlier.


Best

- Larry








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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:23:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:53:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:01:18 -0400
 >Subject: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >Can anyone explain why any photos of the surface of other worlds
 >should be classified? Particularly if NASA's mission is
 >ostensibly the exploration of space, rather than military
 >operations?

Would Ms. White describe for the group the nature of the
evidence she is persuaded by, that this claim has any validity,
or isn't just something made up again to excite the gullible? In
particular, can she - or anyone -- cite any responses from
scientific groups charged with archiving and distributing all
planetary surface imagery, such as the Lunar and Planetary
Science Institute in Houston? I would respect their expressed
evaluation of this allegation - but without backup, I wouldn't
do the same for Ms. White's.


 >From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:19:47 --
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? --
 >From: Mac Tonnies macbot@yahoo.com


 >But... for crying out loud, what the hell can there be on the
 >'moon' that needs to be kept "secret?" To be kept from public
 >view or scrutiny? It's insane! Nope, the _only_ reason that the
 >military would have for keeping _thousands_ of photos from us,
 >the public, that were taken of the of the dark-side of the moon
 >is; if there was something 'threatening,' either to them, the
 >military, the public, clearly visible and unmistakable, sitting
 >there for all to see on the surface of the moon. There is no
 >other _plausible_ explanation for their keeping moon photos
 >sequestered and secret. Yo, Mr. Oberg, what do you know about
 >the closeted Clementine photographic material? What's the
 >'party-line' on that one? :)

If Mr. Velez really wanted to know - and I have long ago
concluded he doesn't really - he would ask the experts (and tell
us what he found out), not drop it in my lap and blame me for
his self-imposed ignorance.


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:55:36 --
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? --

 >From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>

 >The Clementine mission was a joint effort between the BMDO
 >(Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) and NASA. They wanted
 >to qualify light weight imaging sensors and component
 >technologies for the next generation of DoD spacecraft. The BMDO
 >mission includes Theater missile defense and National missile
 >defense as well as advanced technology development. It is
 >possible that this survey of the moon was intended to locate
 >possible construction sites for ballistic missile launch
 >facilities. --


Bill,

No, it (lunar basing for military missiles) is not a 'possible'
explanation - that's something silly out of a 1950's comic book,
or from wild non-expert ravings at the dawn of the Space Age,
not anything ever seriously considered in the past several
decades by anybody familiar with space technology (as far as I'm
aware).







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                Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:48:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:35:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website - Stevenson


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:02:23 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:18:29 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Lakenheath-Bentwaters Website

<snip>

 >Hi Colin,

 >Thankyou, I think. On behalf of all of us involved, I hope
 >people will study it and get something of value from it - and
 >put something of value into it as well. As stated it is an
 >open-ended project and we know that there's still information
 >out there.....

 >Correlating the sightings with earth tremors and tide tables
 >will I'm afraid not be top of my list, but your joke (it seems
 >to me) conceals a serious point. "Unknowns", per se, are not
 >much use to anybody. To scientists, something that could be
 >anything is as good as nothing. Potentially interesting events
 >are encircled by bottomless moats of maybes that radar
 >meteorologists, say, will only be motivated to step across when
 >that big empty pit of nothings has been filled up.

 >In approaching a conventional problem a great deal is taken as
 >"understood". The moat is shallow and there are plenty of others
 >planning or building causeways; plenty of camaraderie and
 >rivalry; lots of comfy social structure. Approaching the UFO
 >question means a lonely step out over an abyss.

 >That's why it's important to try to cover all bases. One needs
 >to be inventive in doing so, too, remembering the John Stuart
 >Mill dictum (wasn't it he?) that an argument is not answered
 >until it's answered at its best. So it isn't a finger-exercise.
 >I'm sure I don't do it with sufficient expertise or authority,
 >but it has to be done. Every time a justifiably sceptical
 >scientist comes to the problem with a question that can't be
 >answered exhaustively in like terms, the encounter will leave a
 >bad taste and he or she is less likely to be back.

 >Like it or not, a "UFO" is presently only the negative image of
 >all that it isn't, and only by making that negative image as
 >well defined as possible will the true shape of the "core"
 >phenomenon (given that there is one) finally emerge - if not in
 >this case then in others like it that are given "the FBI
 >treatment" (a la Hynek) by investigators as dogged as Dave
 >Clarke.


Hello again Martin and List

thankyou for your reply. You do know, of course, that
considerable research of Earthlights has been executed in
Finland. These Earthlights do show on radar and can be
associated with ground movement/tremour/slip and Earthquakes.

You must also be aware that the 1950's type radar has been
upgraded to omit some false readings.

I also realise that the occurences could in actual fact be ET
craft, from research in other area's, so my post was not an
effort of de bunk or leading to one, neither was it a joke.

Over the years there has been quite a lot of unknown activity
near the East Coast and over the UK North Sea which still has
not been explained in full detail. Some theorists say the Sea
bed there is unstable with, as you may be aware, shifting mud
banks and unstable Seacoast cliffs etc.

Over the years it seems to me that UFO's seem to occur before
land slips and Earthquakes and l wonder if ET is very interested
in these or use them in some way or if the UFO's themselves are
mearly Earthlights misconstrued by the observer or a combination
of the three.

Having seen both Earthlights and UFO's in my area both of which
have shown on radar I can understand why the Military and
ordinary folk mix the two and respond to both in a similar
manner.


Kind regards,

col







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              Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:36:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:01:46 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - McCoy


 >From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >Greetings Fellow Listers,

 >I'd like to take a moment to toss in my two cents worth on the
 >subject of why the U.S. Government won't ever be more
 >forthcoming with UFO-related information.

 >snip<

 >North Carolina, too many people would respond to a stranded
 >motorist knocking on their door at 2:00a.m. with a shotgun
 >muzzle, rather than a gas can.

I honestly disagree with that assertion, I really think we have
a big problem with the scientific community, I know a few
fundamentalist Darwinists that would take a pot shot at Klaatuu
or Gort, just because their paradigm, It's all about us! has
just been shattered (just like the 12ga. that just melted by a
very P.O.ed Gort.)

I also know that things have changed in this country since 1939,
one, there is a popular hero, Mr. Spock, who is not of this
Earth. Also, look at E.T.,Close encounters, Star Wars, et.al.I
don't think the majority of folks would be overtly alarmed by a
friendly presence of aliens.-even Christians. I know more than
a few ah, fundamentalist types who are real Star Trek fans. Fully
capable of "Grasping the Concept."

I also know that while one might greet a stranger at 2 am. with
a Shot gun, I have by the way,due to this guy setting in my
driveway with the lights off and not responding to "Can I help
you? other than a profanity, that's when the receiver slams
(loudly) shut on the 'ol Browning.Amazing. the lights work,motor
too. This is not uncommon in rural southern Oregon which is a
lot like oh,North Carolina.

There is a difference with defending your home and being simply
hostile. There are parts of Portland, Oregon that I wouldn't go
at 11pm, let alone 2am.

 >I do not like the way things are. I'm 36, and unless a UFO
 >literally lands at the White House, or the Super Bowl, I will
 >die never having received the truth from my own government.
 >Before you disagree or dismiss this opinion out-of-hand, count
 >how many people you know, whom you believe to be a few
 >sandwiches short of a full picnic, that own shotguns. Now
 >visualize those same people's response when told the truth to
 >end all truths!

Some of those sandwich-shy folks own cars, which is in the hands
of someone like a former wife of a friend of mine can be as
deadly as a Browning Automatic.

 >It really isn't a question of whether our government wants to
 >tell us the truth, by and large, America can't handle the
 >truth...

I think that the Gummit doesn't know how to handle the truth,
and that is the problem. I used to fight forest fires for a
living, and when you get to a big project fire, with several
agencies involved, the prime objective is to keep it going, er,
to make sure that confusion is the order of day so you can get
more Overhead (management) involved in the non-decision making
process.

Sorry I'm cynical,but I really think that the lack of real,
true, forthcoming information about UFOs is due to: Ineptitude,
lack of fortitude, just simply getting the left hand on the lid
of the jar while the right hand is holding it - and trying to
figure out whether to turn the jar or the lid.

I'm 50 something, myself and an experiencer, too. I have worked
for (under contract) for the whole alphabet -oup of government
agencies. While there are good people there, there are some real
incompetents. Most concerned with keeping their empires going.
I firmly believe it is as much as keeping your job, as anything.


GT McCoy







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                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Dabrowski

From: Andrew Dabrowski <dabrowsa@indiana.edu>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:07:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:05:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Dabrowski


 >From: Vladimir Rubtsov <tolimak@mail.ru>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:03:12 +0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:10:35 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 >This thesis sounds good and even poetical... but unfortunately
 >it is wrong. A simple counter-example: can you find a more
 >extraordinary claim than, say, the idea that the electron is
 >both a particle and a wave? And nonetheless, it may be proved
 >with the help of quite "ordinary" - even not too sophisticated -
 >physical experiments. In fact, any scientific claim, however
 >unusual, needs for its acceptance nothing but a
 >_normal_scientific_proof_. Otherwise, science could not exist at
 >all.

It depends on what you mean by "extraordinary". Particle-wave
duality would never have been accepted on the basis of a single
instance of an experiment. It was only accepted because the
experiments could be replicated at will by any competent lab
under controlled conditions. In the wider perspective of human
ignorance and impotence that *is* an extraordinary level of
evidence. Certainly the claims made earlier in this thread have
no comparable support.


Andrew Dabrowski









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                       Deconstructing Reality - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:17:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:07:43 -0400
Subject: Deconstructing Reality - Jones


Deconstructing Reality

Or

All quiet on the Western Front, only there is no Western Front
in Ufology is there.

Several people have commented on how "quiet" Ufology is at the
moment, both here on the List and elsewhere. But are sightings
down? Are UFOs not visiting this pleasant green & blue planet at
the moment, have they done enough probes?

When I joined this List some six years ago the TV series "The X
Files" was in it's hey day, "Dark Skies" had you believe in
government conspiracies, ID4, Independence Day had you believe
that aliens where about to invade this fertile planet. Public
awareness was at its dizzy height regarding interest in UFOs.

So were the "extra" sightings down to actual sightings of more
UFOs or was it just more people reporting seeing UFOs, or was it
a bit of both?

It is clear in my mind that with heightened public awareness,
increased "acceptance" of being able to report sightings free of
ridicule, more genuine sightings did indeed get reported. But I
also think a lot more dross was put out than genuine sighting
reports. So was the "explosion" of reports only due in part to
it being "the latest fad" or was there more sighting reports
than ever?

UFO historians will tell you that sighting reports wax & wane.
With the advent of programs on TV, film & the explosion of the
Internet in the late nineties the public at large had reason to
think more about UFOs than ever. I wonder if you check out films
& programs how many more where made during this time of
"enlightenment" than "normal". So how many of these extra
sighting reports are the golden nuggets that we continually look
for?

In all honesty I really couldn't tell you. But what I am
confident of, with this quiet period of sighting reports, there
is a lot less dross. So perhaps we should not be "complaining"
about the lack of sightings, but be thankful about the reduced
amount of dross.

Just for my thoughts for the lazy Sunday afternoon.


--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







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                         Re: UFOs In Africa? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:32:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:09:15 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Hatch


 >From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
 >Subject: UFOs In Africa?

 >I am asking your help once more.

 >I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
 >countries in Africa.

 >If you could help me, I will appreciate it.


Hello Thiago:


Africa is an awfully big continent with many countries. Could
you possibly narrow down your search a bit? The North African
scene is entirely different from the South.

Some countries have no reports at all that I know of. Is there
some time frame, certain years/decades you are more interested
in?

Best

- Larry Hatch







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:02:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:13:00 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:43:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:24:23 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>Did the world of science object to this? Its hard to imagine
 >>them not screaming their heads off.

 >Hi Larry -

 >The world of science remained silent when through-the-wall radar
 >began to come available to anyone who has the cash, or when Dr.
 >Stanislaw Burzynski's cancer breakthrough was squelched via
 >government harassment, or when a Toronto doctor found that
 >standard treatment for brucellosis also cures multiple sclerosis
 >and was ordered to never use that treatment again.

 >Nor are they asking for full disclosure after evidence that AIDS
 >was a laboratory creation by Dr. Boyd Graves (JD - lawyer), or
 >full disclosure of all aspects of the MKULTRA programs including
 >child torture, or the disclosure of the medical histories of the
 >school shooters and their histories of ties to government
 >facilities, or the Tuskegee no-treatment syphilis experiments
 >which continued into the 1970s, and on and on.

 >In fact, it's a tough job to find any punishment at all when
 >crimes are committed "in the name of science".

 >So no, I'm not surprised that scientists are not screaming their
 >heads off about classified photos paid for by taxpayers.


Hello Eleanor:

You have quite a plateful of goodies here.

Thru-the-wall radar, possibly something of a misnomer, does
indeed exist. Sub millimeter radar can indeed penetrate small
distances through low-density materials.

  http://www.millivision.com/

Its a favorite of the 'mind-control' paranoia websites.

As for Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski, there is a nice article about
his fake Ph.D and hs antiplasmion cancer cures on the QuackWatch
website:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/burzynski1.html

The Polish medical school he attended did not offer doctorates
at the time [chuckle!]

The following link was probably much more sympathetic: "Hero of
the Month" etc. The Google blurb reads:

"The case was Criminal Number H-95-290, United States of America
Plaintiff, vs. Stanislaw Burzynski, MD and The Burzynski
Research Institute, Inc., Defendants .. "

Sadly the link is dead. http://askwaltstollmd.com/body_burz.html

Lets see, who's next..... Oh! the Toronto doctor ordered to
never use his novel cure for Multiple Sclerosis. You didn't give
his name.

Then there is Dr. Boyd Graves (JD - lawyer), who invented AIDS
in his laboratory. I never knew a lawyer who could run a hand
drill properly, let alone a bioengineering lab. Does none of
this seem unlikely to you? It sounds like the Weekly World News
to me.

I need not go on with the rest. Tuskeegie was a well known
scandal, it gets beat up regularly, as it should be.

MKULKTRA?

What I see here is a classic case of late-night-talkshowitis.

Listeners are supposed to enjoy the tall tales, and of course
buy the products advertised (instant youth in a bottle etc.)
Its sad really, but some part of the audience actually believes
the stories!


Amazing.

- Larry Hatch






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                                 'Frank M'?

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:35:08 -0400
Subject: 'Frank M'?


Hello All,

Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
M'?

Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The
researchers are Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.

Regards








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                          Secrecy News -- 05/12/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:14:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:39:25 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/12/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 40
May 12, 2003


**      SHUTTLE ACCIDENT BOARD ERODES OPEN MEETING LAW
**      SSCI REPORT ON INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION


SHUTTLE ACCIDENT BOARD ERODES OPEN MEETING LAW

The five non-governmental members of the Columbia Accident
Investigation Board that is reviewing the February 1 space
shuttle accident have all been hired as NASA employees, thereby
enabling the Board to evade the open meeting requirements of the
Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA).

"If the civilians had not been hired by NASA, a federal law
would have required the investigating board to meet publicly,
justify any closed-door sessions and keep transcripts and
minutes that would ultimately become public records," according
to an astonishing story in the Orlando Sentinel, which first
reported that the private board members were now NASA employees.

See "Civilian Members of Shuttle Investigation Board are on NASA
Payroll," by Kevin Spear, Jim Leusner and Gwyneth K. Shaw,
Orlando Sentinel, May 11, reprinted here:

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/5833525.htm

Members of the Board took umbrage at the implication that their
independence had been called into question by the disclosure
that they are now NASA employees.

It's "hogwash," Admiral Hal Gehman, the Board chair, told the
Washington Post (referring to my comments in particular).  "I
don't feel compromised," said John M. Logsdon of the George
Washington University Space Policy Institute.  "I do not
compromise my independence in any way," said MIT professor
Sheila Widnall.

"This is a pretty independent-minded and stubborn group of
people on this Board," said former astronaut Sally Ride in the
Orlando Sentinel, "so the investigation won't be compromised."

The issue, however, is not the personal integrity of the Board
members nor the fact that they are getting paid for performing a
difficult and thankless task.  At issue, rather, is the
principle of openness in government advisory panels and
especially in accident investigations.

To the extent that it has embraced secrecy, the Board has
excluded all of the journalists, aerospace professionals and
other interested members of the public who might have been able
to provide helpful feedback during the course of the
investigative process.

But what is worse is that the Board members have lent their
considerable prestige to the notion that incidents like the
Columbia disaster cannot be effectively investigated in public.

Admiral Gehman last week went so far as to promise that
transcripts of confidential Board interviews "are never going to
see the light of day."

This is a stunning and disappointing retreat from the practice
of the 1986 presidential commission on the Challenger accident,
where officials were questioned in public and under oath -- to
great effect.

"Secret testimony is bullshit in an accident investigation,"
Robert Hotz, a member of the Challenger commission, told the
Orlando Sentinel.

For all of their declared integrity and independent-mindedness,
the Columbia Board members have now made it more difficult to
uphold the Federal Advisory Committee Act.  They have made it
more likely that the next NASA accident review will also be held
behind closed doors. They have reinforced the disastrous idea
that honest investigations and other official deliberations
cannot be sustained under public scrutiny.

See "Shuttle Panel Neutrality a Concern" by Eric Pianin,
Washington Post, May 12:

   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42871-
2003May11.html

The web site of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board is
here:

http://www.caib.us/


SSCI REPORT ON INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) had a little
to say about a lot of things in its new report on the
intelligence authorization act for fiscal year 2004, published
late last week.

The Committee recalled its futile effort to criminalize all
"leaks" of classified information (a measure fiercely opposed by
civil liberties and media organizations and vetoed by President
Clinton in 2000) and asked the Administration to revisit the
issue yet again:

"Understanding that such a broad [anti-leak statute] measure
still appears to lack political support... the Committee wishes
to encourage the Executive Branch to adopt a new and more
aggressive approach to leak issues.  The Committee recommends
that the U.S. Government consider the workability of aggressive
criminal and civil enforcement, even civil compensatory remedies
(e.g., liquidated damages)."

The SSCI report authorizes funds for research "leading to the
development of alternatives to the polygraph as a security
evaluation tool for the U.S. Government."

The Committee requests reports on intelligence community data
mining capabilities, security clearance procedures, and
intelligence lessons learned from the war in Iraq.

The report asks the executive branch to review the executive
order on classification policy and to consider potential changes
to the order "to facilitate information sharing and data access
across the Intelligence Community."

The Committee directs the National Security Agency to develop a
pilot program that would permit analysts in other intelligence
agencies "to obtain access to and analyze data collected and
held by NSA, while retaining appropriate handling safeguards."

And the Committee incorporates the proposed Freedom of
Information Act exemption for "operational files" of the
National Security Agency, a proposal that also appears in the
pending Defense Authorization Act.

These and many other notable provisions can be found in the SSCI
Report on the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2004, Senate
Report 108-44, dated May 8, here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_rpt/srpt108-44.html

The Intelligence Authorization Act (S. 1025) itself, as marked
up by the Committee, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s1025.html




_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:42:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:48:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:46:57 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:43:03 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

Eleanor White's original:

 >>The world of science remained silent when through-the-wall radar
 >>began to come available to anyone who has the cash, or when Dr.
 >>Stanislaw Burzynski's cancer breakthrough was squelched via
 >>government harassment, or when a Toronto doctor found that
 >>standard treatment for brucellosis also cures multiple sclerosis
 >>and was ordered to never use that treatment again.

 >>Nor are they asking for full disclosure after evidence that AIDS
 >>was a laboratory creation by Dr. Boyd Graves (JD - lawyer), or full
 >>disclosure of all aspects of the MKULTRA programs including child
 >>torture, or the disclosure of the medical histories of the school
 >>shooters and their histories of ties to government facilities, or
 >>the Tuskegee no-treatment syphilis experiments which continued
 >>into the 1970s, and on and on.

<snip>

Ian Rogers responds:

 >One Toronto doctor doing that treatment being allegedly threatened
 >doesn't stop others from doing it, would it? Or are doctors all over the
 >globe being silenced? (I have _never_ bought the whole "government
 >silencing witnesses" bit. Don't you think they'd realize by now that it
 >never works? People who claim to have been silenced by the FBI, CIA,
 >NSA, whatever, invariably blab about their "experience" anyway. Which
 >makes these people either very stupid or not at all worried about
 >reprisals from govt. hitmen!)

Eleanor answers Ian:

The multiple sclerosis treatment by way of treating for
brucellosis was actually halted by the governing body for
doctors, I believe the Ontario College of Physicians and
Surgeons who control licensing for the government. I'm going to
try to find out why doctors outside Ontario have not tried this.
That is a very good point.

I certainly agree that some do "blab" and get away with it, but
they are more likely motivated by conscience than stupid. Some
things are so important that when you know about a greivous
crime, you don't perceive any choice but to blab anyway.

The suppressed cancer breakthrough by Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski is
documented in this book:

The Burzynski Breakthrough by Thomas Elias
ISBN: 0938530666

In an on air interview with the author he stated this case is
very blatant harassment by government and that the book contains
actual documents to show this. Dr. Burzynski was taken to court
a number of times.

Ian Rogers again:

 >It's all such a tight-knit series of statements that preclude
 >any actual "explanations." Usually because they aren't any. Most
 >of this stuff you're just supposed to accept with a grain of
 >salt ... and if you don't, well, you're just a 'skeptic' -- as
 >if being skeptical were a bad thing. Frankly, I think we have
 >enough believers in this field. What we need is more people with
 >objectivity.

Eleanor answers Ian:

My purpose in listing these as-yet not fully exposed crimes, and
there are plenty more by the way, is to show that a UFO cover up
is not a freak occurrence - that cover up is historical and
current practice in government and in quasi-government bodies,
like medical licensing boards.

I'm not saying don't be skeptical, rather, I'm saying step back
from UFOs and see that there are cover ups going on all the time
in many different fields. When you do that, the likelihood of a
UFO cover up increases quite a bit.

The more people who realize cover up is a current problem,
the more pressure can be applied to get both UFO matters
and these other serious crimes disclosed.

 >And I have to ask: AIDS as a laboratory experiment is a popular
 >conspiracy theory; what evidence do you have that it can all be
 >attributed to this one person? Something more than a secret
 >government source you can't name, I hope.


* The prime mover in exposing AIDS as a laboratory creation
is Dr. Boyd Graves, JD (law), and you can view his evidence
which he has all laid out on his web site at:

http://www.boydgraves.com

Another activist trying to expose AIDS as a laboratory creation,
as well as a number of other "emerging viruses" is DMD (dentist)
Dr. Len Horowitz, who has become a full time activist in the area
of medical crimes and cover ups.

His web site is:

http://www.tetrahedron.org
  (Click on "clear this page" to get thru the login)

 >From that link, you can search for AIDS and get this long link
which goes into some detail:

http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/aids-coverups/
PRESS_RELEASE-AIDS_Vancouver.htm

... about a Vancouver BC conference in which the artificial
possibility was discussed.

* The through the wall radar which was, when I phoned the
maker in 1999, available with no restrictions except you had
to have something like $100,000+ available, is now called
Millivision, and you can see their wares at:

http://www.millivision.com

If not scientists, then at least Congressional reps shoulld
have been on their feet having that and similar items banned
from public use except by a licensing system at least as
strict as wire taps or guns.

* The Columbine Research Task Force, established by
an independent investigator reported in March 2002 that
the Colorado State House committee which had been
considering the Columbine shooting voted against any
further investigation. That web site is:

http://columbine.n3.net/

The site's owner is Mr. Justin Tribble. There has been no
subpoena-level investigation of Columbine to date.

* MKULTRA has been only partly exposed to date, and the
only victims who have succeeded in getting their case won
in court are 8 unlucky Canadians who had their entire life
memories erased by Dr. Ewen Cameron in Montreal.

One _child_ victim is Mrs. Carol Rutz, whose site is here:

http://www2.dmci.net/users/casey

... and whose story about her being handed over to MKULTRA
scientists for torture, to force multiple personalities which
could be hypnotically triggered for diffrerent tasks is:

"A Nation Betrayed", ISBN: 0-9710102-0-X, 264 pages

I can get anyone interested in contacting Carol or other
MKULTRA victims in direct touch.

I can also tell you that very real people have been put in
the ground because MKULTRA and other "mind control"
programs have driven them to suicide. If you want some
names, let me know.

* The Tuskegee untreated syphilis experiments, 40+ years in
length, have thankfully been admitted to by President Clinton.
  Ditto the decades of feeding and injecting people with
radioactive materials.

I think if anyone listens on the air to the experiencers and
researchers in the above matters, you will find that they are
serious about exposing these causes and not whispering nameless
inhabitants of Internet chat rooms. The problem is that the
public tends to think that anything that isn't in the major
media doesn't exist.

One excellent place to hear about documented government crimes
and cover ups is The Power Hour radio show, on shortwave, AM-FM
affiliates, and the web:

http://www.ThePowerHour.com
http://www.gcnlive.com

Mondays-Fridays  8 am to 11 am Eastern live
Mondays-Fridays  10 pm to 1 am Eastern repeat

Former military nurse Joyce Riley and her husband Dave von
Kleist do a terrific job of selecting guests who have done
substantial research. Although medical cover ups and health
matters are prominent, over a month they will cover many
different crimes needing disclosure.


Eleanor White







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:47:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:49:58 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:29:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?


 >Suppressed cancer treatments:

 >The Burzynski Breakthrough by Thomas Elias ISBN: 0938530666
http://www.cancer-coverup.com (Kathleen Deoul, >cesium treatment)

I read the link, which describes a possible cancer treatment,
using the mineral cesium. I also did a quick websearch for
anything on Cesium and cancer. Found the following, from Randal
Nelson, a computer scientist at the University of Rochester.
He's a member of the univerisity's Center for Future Health,
which he describes as "a consortium of groups from engineering,
computer science, research and clinical medicine, and health
services that was founded with the goal of utilizing technology
to empower the individual in his or her own health care, provide
whole-person diagnosis, point of need care, and more efficiently
utilize available human resources."

About cesium, he says:

Cesium salts have recently been promoted as therapy for cancer,
and I get a lot of inquiries on the subject. This is what I
know.

"Cesium chloride is an unproven treatment for cancer; it is not
currently endorsed by the medical "establishment". There are
some intriguing case studies, but the documented scientific
evidence is pretty murky at this point. The few references in
the official literature are mostly in obscure journals. There
are a couple of early articles on Cesium therapy in
"Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior" Vol. 21, supplement 1,
pp 7-15, 1984, which you may be able to locate if you have
access to a major medical library.

"There is also (as of Feb 2003) an organization providing
information on Cesium treatment of cancer, (Dr. Keith Brewer's
High Ph Cancer Therapy with Cesium). The address I have for this
organization is:

The A. Keith Brewer International Science Library
325 N. Central Avenue
Richland Center, WI 53581
Phone: 608-647-6513; Fax: 608-647-6797
drbrewer@mwt.net; www.mwt.net/~drbrewer


"I would take their literature with a grain of salt, as the
library was founded by one of the originators of Cesium
therapy."

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/users/faculty/nelson/cesium/cesium_therapy.html


Greg Sandow








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                 World UFO Tour On Internet UFO TV Programme

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:00:05 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:59:47 -0400
Subject: World UFO Tour On Internet UFO TV Programme


Hi UFO UpDates,

The UFO TV programme I co-host with Doug Moffett on the Internet
has a number of new programmes that should be of interest to
you.  In particular I draw your attention to a whirlwind UFO
world tour we attempt, plus a focus on UFOs in China, in the
wake of my own visit there last year. Given the limited time
involved these are obviously just touching the surface and
sometime generalisations, but I hope it encourages interest in
the subjects of each programme.

Forthcoming programmes we have already done that should be
appearing as soon as other "bananatv" programme priorities allow
include:

* a "discussion"/"debate" with a representative from the skeptics
* a discussion on Roswell
* a programme devoted to the Condon Report and its legacy & impact
* a look at Project Bluebook

Take a look at the programmes at:

www.bananatv.com/UFO

Regards,

Bill Chalker
www.theozfiles.com






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                       Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:43:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:03:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:32:19 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa?

 >>From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
 >>Subject: UFOs In Africa?

 >>I am asking your help once more.

 >>I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
 >>countries in Africa.

 >>If you could help me, I will appreciate it.

 >Africa is an awfully big continent with many countries. Could
 >you possibly narrow down your search a bit? The North African
 >scene is entirely different from the South.

 >Some countries have no reports at all that I know of. Is there
 >some time frame, certain years/decades you are more interested
 >in?

Hello Larry,

My article will show Brazilians what the UFO scene is in Africa.
As many reports I can get is better.

Thank you very much.


--
Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-presidente da EBE-ET/RAB
Brasilia/DF
Brasil







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                       Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:46:59 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:07:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:30:21 +0200
 >Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa?

 >>From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
 >>Subject: UFOs In Africa?

 >>I am asking your help once more.

 >>I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
 >>countries in Africa.

 >>If you could help me, I will appreciate it.

 >The books to get are those by the late Cynthia Hind, who lived
 >in Harare, Zimbabwe. She catalogued a number of good cases. She
 >also produced a monthly newsletter.

 >There was also a young man in Tanzania who wrote to us last
 >year, looking for Africa UFO info, and he may have collected
 >some new info.


Thank you very much, Diana.

I have one book wrote by Mrs. Hind.

Do you have the e-mail of that man from Tanzania?


Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-presidente da EBE-ET/RAB
Brasilia/DF
Brasil








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                        Re: UFOs In Africa? - Rosales

From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:22:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:11:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Rosales


Here is a 1996 landing report from South Africa

Location. Near Harare, Zimbabwe
Date: October 20 1996 Time: night

A man named Paul was driving on the Bulawayo Road near the
Lilfordia School when he saw a bright light descending silently
from the sky. As the object neared him he became aware that it
was a disc-shaped craft.

As the object landed on a large open field to his left, Paul
pulled over and stopped the car. As he watched, a door opened -
  moving upwards - on the side of the object, and two men wearing
shiny black coveralls climbed out of a dome at the top of the
craft.

At this point coming from the opposite direction came another
vehicle, which also stopped, on the right hand side of the road.
The entities must have then become aware of being watched, and
the men went quickly inside the object. Then the door closed,
moving downwards.

At this point the occupant from the other vehicle ran across the
road and yelled at the witness to leave the area quickly. Both
men then drove off very fast.

HC addendum
Source: Cynthia Hind


Albert Rosales






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:23:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:13:57 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:06:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:55:36 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>John, there is another reason.

 >>The Clementine mission was a joint effort between the BMDO
 >>(Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) and NASA. They wanted
 >>to qualify light weight imaging sensors and component
 >>technologies for the next generation of DoD spacecraft.

 >How about a more common thought? The BMDO doesn't want to
 >release the photos because it could tell somebody exactly what
 >these sensors are capable of seeing/resolving.

Some of these photos are now viewable on the web. If there are
others with better resolution I am not aware of them and do not
know where the figure of 23,000 originated.

My explanation of possible missile bases is, like Oberg said,
something discussed a long time ago in a different era and is
just a wild shot on my part.

The Clementine lunar image browser is found at:

http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/clementine/clib/

If there are classified images, then the reason for the
classification is... uh, classified.

I guess what we would like to see are images showing UFOs on the
moon.

-Bill






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:07:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:18:41 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Yturria


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
 >>authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
 >>collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
 >>Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
 >>in your reseach ?

 >I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
 >further study.

Than you for your reply. I will not ask you what UFO footage you
are mentioning because your answer is enough for me. However I
will be very honest with you.

What's your point with this IFO test like if you were a teacher
in a classroom? To prove that someone can be fooled by a simple
mylar balloon? In our research we have seen these examples a
thousand times for many years. So this is like going back to
kindergarden again and we can not afford such a waste of time.

We are in 2003 and are urged to get to the Real Thing. We can
not give us the luxury to waste any time. Since we don't have
the support of the goverments or the scientists we are
researching by ourselves.

Ufology is a science of study and learning and it seems to me
that someone or 'someones' are out there, waiting for us to get
to the knowledge and 'it' or 'them' are giving us clues. So we
must pursue our quest for the truth and the knowledge of this
reality. We must go on looking straight forward without wasting
time.

You have not mentioned in your research the night time UFO
videos and we have some spectacular ones like the famous
triangle over Belgium officially recognized by their Air Force
as a UFO.

You have not mentioned either other important footage from
official sources and we have also some definitive ones. Therefore
and with due all respect I think you still have homework to do
in your research.

This is my opinion and as far as I'm concerned if you want to
remain in kindergarden its all right with me.


Santiago







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:21:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:20:13 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:06:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:55:36 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>John, there is another reason.

 >>The Clementine mission was a joint effort between the BMDO
 >>(Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) and NASA. They wanted
 >>to qualify light weight imaging sensors and component
 >>technologies for the next generation of DoD spacecraft.

 >Bill, Listers,

 >How about a more common thought? The BMDO doesn't want to
 >release the photos because it could tell somebody exactly what
 >these sensors are capable of seeing/resolving.

<snip>


Hello Robert, Bill:


Robert's idea sounds _way_ more plausible to me.

One of the most carefully guarded military secrets has long been
the resolving power of our spy satellites. When they do release
an image, it is/was deliberately blurred for that exact reason.

Something similar applied to the range and selectivity of long-
range sonar, which could not only locate but also identify
submarines and other craft.

The Moon sounds like a terrible place for ICBM sites (IPCM
really). Just think of the maintenance costs.


Best

- Larry






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                      Re: Deconstructing Reality - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:27:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:21:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Deconstructing Reality - Hall


 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:17:49 +0100
 >Subject: Deconstructing Reality

 >Deconstructing Reality

 >Or

 >All quiet on the Western Front, only there is no Western Front
 >in Ufology is there.

 >Several people have commented on how "quiet" Ufology is at the
 >moment, both here on the List and elsewhere. But are sightings
 >down? Are UFOs not visiting this pleasant green & blue planet at
 >the moment, have they done enough probes?

 >When I joined this List some six years ago the TV series "The X
 >Files" was in it's hey day, "Dark Skies" had you believe in
 >government conspiracies, ID4, Independence Day had you believe
 >that aliens where about to invade this fertile planet. Public
 >awareness was at its dizzy height regarding interest in UFOs.

 >So were the "extra" sightings down to actual sightings of more
 >UFOs or was it just more people reporting seeing UFOs, or was it
 >a bit of both?

 >It is clear in my mind that with heightened public awareness,
 >increased "acceptance" of being able to report sightings free of
 >ridicule, more genuine sightings did indeed get reported. But I
 >also think a lot more dross was put out than genuine sighting
 >reports. So was the "explosion" of reports only due in part to
 >it being "the latest fad" or was there more sighting reports
 >than ever?

 >UFO historians will tell you that sighting reports wax & wane.
 >With the advent of programs on TV, film & the explosion of the
 >Internet in the late nineties the public at large had reason to
 >think more about UFOs than ever. I wonder if you check out films
 >& programs how many more where made during this time of
 >"enlightenment" than "normal". So how many of these extra
 >sighting reports are the golden nuggets that we continually look
 >for?

 >In all honesty I really couldn't tell you. But what I am
 >confident of, with this quiet period of sighting reports, there
 >is a lot less dross. So perhaps we should not be "complaining"
 >about the lack of sightings, but be thankful about the reduced
 >amount of dross.

 >Just for my thoughts for the lazy Sunday afternoon.

Sean,

I agree with almost everything you say in this post, especially
the negative effects of ridiicule on the flow of reports and the
confusion of "ufology" today. Are UFOs still showing themselves?
Apropo of this, I am doing a study for the Fund for UFO Research
to compile and analyze "typical" (which will be defined) UFO
reports since 1999 (new millennium). Somewhat to my surprise, I
am finding many, many examples of exactly the same types that I
reported in The UFO Evidence, Volume II. Stay tuned.


  - Dick







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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:40:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:23:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:46:50 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Vladimir Rubtsov <tolimak@mail.ru>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:03:12 +0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:10:35 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:39:53 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 >>This thesis sounds good and even poetical... but unfortunately
 >>it is wrong. A simple counter-example: can you find a more
 >>extraordinary claim than, say, the idea that the electron is
 >>both a particle and a wave? And nonetheless, it may be proved
 >>with the help of quite "ordinary" - even not too sophisticated -
 >>physical experiments. In fact, any scientific claim, however
 >>unusual, needs for its acceptance nothing but a
 >>_normal_scientific_proof_. Otherwise, science could not exist at
 >>all. (I realize, of course, that the question whether ufology in
 >>general and "abductology" in particular could be considered as
 >>"science" in any definite sense of this word remains open at
 >>best!)

 >Fair enough. I shall clarify for the list:

 >The claim that aliens are habitually visiting the earth
 >(crashing into our deserts, abducting humans, mutilating cattle,
 >carving crop circles in wheat fields, et al.) requires
 >extraordinary evidence.

On the subject of so-called 'crash retrievals,' I personally
think we should send out a big thank-you to the aliens, even if
they are malevolent, because out of the 272 UFO crashes that
have occurred on this planet (as reported on the CSETI website),
none have occurred in cities or highly populated areas. That
they manage to dump their ships in deserts or other remote areas
-- and thus preventing the loss of human life -- is actually
quite thoughtful.

Amusingly enough, CSETI's site contains a disclaimer that says
entries on the list will be removed as they are deemed hoaxes.
Presumed true until proved false. Boy, you've gotta appreciate
that kind of enthusiasm.

Ian Rogers







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:47:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:34:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:29:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:46:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>It's all such a tight-knit series of statements that preclude
 >>any actual "explanations." Usually because they aren't any. Most
 >>of this stuff you're just supposed to accept with a grain of
 >>salt ... and if you don't, well, you're just a 'skeptic' -- as
 >>if being skeptical were a bad thing. Frankly, I think we have
 >>enough believers in this field. What we need is more people with
 >>objectivity.

 >>And I have to ask: AIDS as a laboratory experiment is a popular
 >>cnspiracy theory; what evidence do you have that it can all be
 >>attributed to this one person? Something more than a secret
 >>government source you can't name, I hope.

 >AIDS as a laboratory creation:

 >http://www.boydgraves.com
 >http://www.tetrahedron.org

 >Suppressed cancer treatments:

 >The Burzynski Breakthrough by Thomas Elias ISBN: 0938530666
 >http://www.cancer-coverup.com (Kathleen Deoul, cesium treatment)

 >.... for starters, I have to rush off to work at the moment -
 >I'll send more later.

Do you believe everything written on these websites? Is there anything
you don't believe?


Ian Rogers







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:36:08 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>If I don't know what it is, Santiago, it is unidentified... for
 >>>the moment. I continue to analyze until I find the truth. If
 >>>something is unknown, I never rule out any possible explanation
 >>>including the possibility it was a bird, balloon, airplane,
 >>>blimp, etc.

 ><snip>

 >>In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
 >>authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
 >>collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
 >>Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
 >>in your reseach ?

 >I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
 >further study.

 >>I will wait your straight answer to this because I'm very
 >>interested to know how you apply your criteria in these studies.
 >>But please let's talk straight and clear avoiding the rhetoric.

 >I _am_ talking straight, Santiago. I'm just not saying what you
 >want me to say. Take it or leave it.

If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
people think, in this field.


Ian Rogers







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:08:00 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>If I don't know what it is, Santiago, it is unidentified... for
 >>>the moment. I continue to analyze until I find the truth. If
 >>>something is unknown, I never rule out any possible explanation
 >>>including the possibility it was a bird, balloon, airplane,
 >>>blimp, etc.

 ><snip>

 >>In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
 >>authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
 >>collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
 >>Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
 >>in your reseach ?

 >I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
 >further study.

 >>I will wait your straight answer to this because I'm very
 >>interested to know how you apply your criteria in these studies.
 >>But please let's talk straight and clear avoiding the rhetoric.

 >I _am_ talking straight, Santiago. I'm just not saying what you
 >want me to say. Take it or leave it.

If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
people think in this field.


Ian Rogers







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             Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:10:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:11:14 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:36:18 -0700
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>Greetings Fellow Listers,

 >>I'd like to take a moment to toss in my two cents worth on the
 >>subject of why the U.S. Government won't ever be more
 >>forthcoming with UFO-related information.

 >>snip<

 >>North Carolina, too many people would respond to a stranded
 >>motorist knocking on their door at 2:00a.m. with a shotgun
 >>muzzle, rather than a gas can.

 >I also know that things have changed in this country since 1939,
 >one, there is a popular hero, Mr. Spock, who is not of this
 >Earth. Also, look at E.T.,Close encounters, Star Wars, et.al.I
 >don't think the majority of folks would be overtly alarmed by a
 >friendly presence of aliens.-even Christians. I know more than
 >a few ah, fundamentalist types who are real Star Trek fans. Fully
 >capable of "Grasping the Concept."

It's one thing to grasp the concept of a TV program. It's quite
another to grasp the concept that aliens have landed (much less
that they're abducting us, mutilating cattle, involved in a dark
deal with our govt., and so forth).

Open question to the list: Does anyone honestly think if the
world was told aliens had landed that people (let's say
Americans for this question) wouldn't start stocking up on guns,
ammo, bomb-shelter goodies. Our natural reaction is to panic,
not to embrace the new and different.

 >There is a difference with defending your home and being simply
 >hostile. There are parts of Portland, Oregon that I wouldn't go
 >at 11pm, let alone 2am.

A lot of people define being hostile as part of defending their
home. It's rarely a black -and-white issue for people.

 >Some of those sandwich-shy folks own cars, which is in the hands
 >of someone like a former wife of a friend of mine can be as
 >deadly as a Browning Automatic.

Despite the clever soundbite, there is a world of difference
between a Ford Explorer and a Browning Automatic. I'm more
afraid of the guy behind the door with the Browning; not his
Ford sitting in the driveway.

 >Sorry I'm cynical,but I really think that the lack of real,
 >true, forthcoming information about UFOs is due to: Ineptitude,
 >lack of fortitude, just simply getting the left hand on the lid
 >of the jar while the right hand is holding it - and trying to
 >figure out whether to turn the jar or the lid.

Yeah, but for a group of inept people, they're doing a pretty
good job of keeping a lid on the whole deal. We can call them
the stupid government all we want, but they can't be that dumb
if they've supposedly blinded the planet for the last fifty
years.


Ian Rogers







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                     Re: Deconstructing Reality - Rolfe

From: Chris Rolfe <ufomek@whsmithnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:25:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:16:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Deconstructing Reality - Rolfe


 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:17:49 +0100
 >Subject: Deconstructing Reality

 >Deconstructing Reality

 >Or

 >All quiet on the Western Front, only there is no Western Front
 >in Ufology is there.

 >Several people have commented on how "quiet" Ufology is at the
 >moment, both here on the List and elsewhere. But are sightings
 >down? Are UFOs not visiting this pleasant green & blue planet at
 >the moment, have they done enough probes?

 >When I joined this List some six years ago the TV series "The X
 >Files" was in it's hey day, "Dark Skies" had you believe in
 >government conspiracies, ID4, Independence Day had you believe
 >that aliens where about to invade this fertile planet. Public
 >awareness was at its dizzy height regarding interest in UFOs.

 >So were the "extra" sightings down to actual sightings of more
 >UFOs or was it just more people reporting seeing UFOs, or was it
 >a bit of both?

 >It is clear in my mind that with heightened public awareness,
 >increased "acceptance" of being able to report sightings free of
 >ridicule, more genuine sightings did indeed get reported. But I
 >also think a lot more dross was put out than genuine sighting
 >reports. So was the "explosion" of reports only due in part to
 >it being "the latest fad" or was there more sighting reports
 >than ever?

 >UFO historians will tell you that sighting reports wax & wane.
 >With the advent of programs on TV, film & the explosion of the
 >Internet in the late nineties the public at large had reason to
 >think more about UFOs than ever. I wonder if you check out films
 >& programs how many more where made during this time of
 >"enlightenment" than "normal". So how many of these extra
 >sighting reports are the golden nuggets that we continually look
 >for?

 >In all honesty I really couldn't tell you. But what I am
 >confident of, with this quiet period of sighting reports, there
 >is a lot less dross. So perhaps we should not be "complaining"
 >about the lack of sightings, but be thankful about the reduced
 >amount of dross.

 >Just for my thoughts for the lazy Sunday afternoon.


Well in Kent we've had very few sightings lately, however we
never really had that many reported to us during the days of the
X-files, etc. Does that mean that the people of Kent in the UK
are more sane that in toher parts of the UK?

So people think that UFO sightings are down? Well that's not
what I've been hearing. Go upto the NE Coast of the UK, as
there's been plenty of sightings up there over the past year or
so.

Or do those people in the NE need to take more water with it.?

Just because you don't read about it in the tabloids or see it
on the news, or have any sightings in your area, doesn't mean
there aren't any elsewhere. However one thing I have noticed is,
that UFO Groups and researchers still keep info/sightings to
themselves, as if they are some kind of secret society. I know
that UFO Magazine recieves on a daily basis several peices of
video footage and sighting reports, but due to their staffing
levels cannot dissiminate the details to every group or
reseacher in the Country, which is a shame. When they do have
time they do send details of sightings down to me to
investigate.

I have allways found that the UK is very bad when it comes to
groups/reseachers co-operating with each other. If you know of a
sighting in another area of the UK and you cannot look into it,
then try to find out if there is a group/researcher in that area
who can, and pass on the details. Quite often I have discovereed
someone in Kent has reported their sighting to another group
outside the Kent area, and the group has not bothered to
investigate it because it was outside of their area.

So if anyone gets any reports from the County of Kent in the UK
that they cannot investigate then please pass it onto myself.


Chris Rolfe
UFO Monitors East Kent
23 Brabner Close,
Folkestone,
Kent
CT19 6LW
Tel: 07968 583435
e-mail: ufomek@whsmithnet.co.uk






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                       The Quest For Truth About UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:38:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:38:26 -0400
Subject: The Quest For Truth About UFOs



Source: The News-Register - McMinnville, Oregon

http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=165972


Stanton Friedman - The Quest For Truth About UFOs

Published: May 10, 2003

After more than 45 years of study and investigations and visits
to 19 document archives, I am convinced that:

a) Earth is being visited by alien spacecraft;

b) The subject of flying saucers represent a kind of Cosmic
Watergate;

c) There are no good arguments against these conclusions;

d) Visits to Planet Earth and 55 years of government cover-up of
crashed saucers and alien bodies are, together, the biggest
story of the past millennium.

I take a clear-cut, unambiguous stand that some UFOs are alien
spacecraft but that some of these flying saucers are our own. I
am absolutely convinced that the United States government has
been withholding data about UFOs since at least 1947. That was
the year when at least two crashed flying saucers - alien
wreckage and bodies - were recovered in New Mexico.

This does NOT mean everybody in the government knows all about
saucers and nobody has talked. Security works on a need-to-know
basis with compartmentalization of very highly classified
matters. Of course, some people have talked, but without having
any confirmatory classified documents to release.

After arduous effort, I have received some of the 6,000 pages of
UFO-related documents that have been released - many of them
with eight words to a page and paragraph after paragraph blacked
out (until they graduated to whiteout several years later.)
However, this amount is but a small percentage of what exists in
the archives and files of various government agencies.

More than a decade ago, a Freedom of Information request
submitted to the CIA by Citizens Against UFO Secrecy elicited
the response that the CIA had no information about UFOs. An
appeal was denied, but a federal court action forced the CIA to
do a document search.

Eventually it released about 900 pages of mildly interesting
items. Clearly this was the tip of the iceberg since none were
classified above "Secret" and since there were internal
references to many other documents that were not released.

The CIA has a history of doling out dribs and drabs in hope that
the requester will give up. Of greater importance was the
release of a list of 57 UFO documents found in the CIA files but
originating with a host of other agencies.

Notable among the identified material were 18 UFO documents
originating with the National Security Agency. But these
documents could not be released by the CIA.

A Freedom of Information request was then made for the NSA
documents, but was denied on the grounds of national security. A
subsequent appeal was denied and federal court action followed.
Finally, a federal judge ruled that the NSA had to search its
files. The search yielded 239 UFO documents with 79 originating
with other agencies, including 23 from the CIA, which supposedly
had already done an exhaustive search. The NSA refused to
release 156 of its UFO documents.

I then filed a Freedom of Information request for the 23 CIA
documents identified by the NSA file search. After 35 months the
CIA released just nine, which were all, believe it or not, press
abstracts of Eastern European newspaper articles about UFOs! It
refused to release its own 14 UFO documents on that list.

I appealed and - two years later - received tiny portions of
three documents with the rest being withheld.

The now-famous extraterrestrial encounters and cover up at
Roswell, N.M., have long been a focus of my work. I was the
original civilian investigator of the case and co-authored
"Crash at Corona," the definitive study of the Roswell
incidents, and instigated the Unsolved Mysteries episode on
television about Roswell.

Some attacks on the legitimacy of the Roswell crash have been
made by people who accept the notion that Earth is indeed being
visited by alien spacecraft but do not believe that Roswell
represents the crash of such a vehicle. Much as I have tried to
find good reasons for rejecting the reality of the Roswell
incident, despite the enormous quantity of verbiage that has
been published, I have been unable to do so.

My interest in and study of UFOs date back nearly half a
century, and since 1967, I've lectured on the topic, "Flying
Saucers ARE Real!" at more than 600 colleges and over 100
professional groups around the world. I also am author of more
than 100 papers and articles. I have appeared on hundreds of
radio and television programs about various UFO-related topics,
including Larry King Live, Nightline, Unsolved Mysteries,
Sightings and Entertainment Tonight.

I have provided testimony to congressional hearings, appeared
twice before the United Nations, and pioneered many aspects of
UFOlogy, including the Betty Hill star map work, crashed saucers
and analysis of the Delphos physical trace case.

My explosive book, "Top Secret/MAJIC," in 1996 sheds light on
the covert activities and findings of the select group
established by President Truman in 1947 to deal with crashed
saucers. The book draws from classified documents never before
published.

There is no question that the U.S. government recovered two
crashed flying saucers and crews in the New Mexico desert in
early July, 56 years ago. The government has been quite
successful at withholding the physical remnants and the real
paper trail.

Yes, Virginia, there really is a Cosmic Watergate!

Editor's note: Stanton T. Friedman, who is grand marshal of
today's parade, put his convictions in writing as part of the
UFO Fest. We share them with you - with a wee grain of salt.

---

Guest writer Stanton Friedman was born in New Jersey in 1934 and
received B.S. and M.S. degrees in physics from the University of
Chicago, where Carl Sagan was a classmate. He worked 14 years as
a nuclear physicist with major corporations on such advanced,
highly classified, eventually canceled projects as nuclear
aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and nuclear power plants
for space.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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   May > May 12

                           Fun No Alien To Rachel

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:48:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:48:19 -0400
Subject: Fun No Alien To Rachel



Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal - Nevada

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2003/May-09-Fri-2003/news/21286808.html


Friday, May 09, 2003

Fun no alien to Rachel

Residents of community near Area 51 ready to launch celebration
of town's 25 years of existence

By Richard Lake
Review-Journal


RACHEL -- Alfalfa fields and rumors of aliens are about all this
town has, aside from a single gas station, a church with no
minister and what locals say is a proud heritage worth
celebrating every year with a huge parade.

This year, the big party is set to start Saturday morning.

Fewer than 100 people live in Rachel, which sits along the
Extraterrestrial Highway, not far from the super-secret
government facilities at Area 51.

It's rumored that the government has kept extraterrestrial craft
and alien bodies hidden at Area 51, though not everyone here
believes it.

Most, if not all, of the people who live here plan on gathering
this weekend to celebrate Rachel's official 25th birthday party,
called Rachel Days.

"Really, it's just to have fun and get everybody together," said
Kaye Medlin, the local Chamber of Commerce president.

Back in the 1970s, when the town was little more than a place
for folks who worked at the nearby Tempiute mine to park their
trailers, it didn't really have an appealing name.

Tempiute Village, it was called for a while. Sometimes it was
called Sand Springs because it sits in the Sand Springs Valley,
about 100 miles north of Las Vegas.

But some residents weren't satisfied with those names, and they
sought a new one. Then, early in 1978, Rachel Jones was born in
her family's trailer here. She is still the only child to have
been born here.

And so the town was renamed Rachel.

Since then, locals have been gathering each spring to celebrate
their home. They parade down the highway and through town to
D.C. Day Park, named after the man considered the town's
founder.

This year, because it is Rachel's 25th birthday, organizers hope
for a big turnout. The parade starts at 10 a.m. Saturday and
will be followed by festivities at the park, including a
barbecue, crafts and a battle of the bands.

Fay Day, 78, the widow of D.C. Day, recalled Thursday how there
was virtually nothing in town back when she and her husband
arrived in the 1960s.

"There was nobody here but us," she said while working the
counter at the gas station and convenience store she runs.

By the late =B970s, however, the town had power and telephone
service, the local mobile home park was full, and there was even
a bar and grill. The population ran somewhere between 200 and
300 at the time.

But the mine soon closed, and scores of people left. Rachel
Jones, the town's namesake, had moved to Washington state, where
she died in 1980. The locals erected a memorial to her.

Rachel, the town, would not simply fade away, however. Townsfolk
latched on to a phenomena that has kept people from around the
world interested in it.

Aliens.

"Rachel's more famous in Europe than in the United States," said
Devin Loving, who moved to Rachel about a year ago after some
time in Southern California and Las Vegas. "In Japan, it's
practically a cult."

A peek at the guest sign-in book in Day's convenience store
backs that up. Dozens of tourists from near and far have stopped
by.

Over at what might be the most famous place in town, the Little
A'Le'Inn, a bar and grill, motel and gift shop, Chuck Clark is
the resident Area 51 expert. He wrote a book about it, and he
can be found at the bar most days chatting about aliens,
alternate dimensions and time travel.

Clark moved to Rachel about nine years ago, he said, partly
because he likes to take pictures of the sky at night, and it's
really dark in Rachel at night.

But he also left California for Rachel because of the alien
connection, he said.

"I figured I'd kill a couple of birds with one stone," said
Clark, who then told a story about how, when he was 11 years
old, he and a group of friends saw a formation of unidentified
flying aircraft hovering in the sky in the California desert.

"There was never a word on the news or in the papers," he said.

"That got me interested. Definitely."



[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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                  Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Jacobson

From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@attbi.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:48:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:41:53 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Jacobson


 >From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:07:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
 >>>authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
 >>>collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
 >>>Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
 >>>in your reseach ?

 >>I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
 >>further study.

 >What's your point with this IFO test like if you were a teacher
 >in a classroom? To prove that someone can be fooled by a simple
 >mylar balloon? In our research we have seen these examples a
 >thousand times for many years. So this is like going back to
 >kindergarden again and we can not afford such a waste of time.

 >We are in 2003 and are urged to get to the Real Thing. We can
 >not give us the luxury to waste any time. Since we don't have
 >the support of the goverments or the scientists we are
 >researching by ourselves.


Santiago,

You seem to be confused about the meaning of 'UFO'. In the US we
generally take this to mean an 'Unidentified Flying Object',
just that and no more. You seem to be using it as a synonym for
'extraterrestrial craft'. Any image that is unidentified is a
UFO. There's no case that such an image is an extraterrestrial
craft untill someone has carefully excluded every other possible
identification. Amy's contribution is to the latter task.

How will you be sure that you have evidence of the Real Thing
unless you are able to definitively discriminate between an
image which has no other plausible explanation than
"extraterrestrial craft" and an image of the type which Amy is
cataloging? I am very skeptical of your implication that you can
identify such images as Amy has cataloged without any problem.
The analysis of photos, videos and films of supposed UFOs is not
at all an established science.

So I'm puzzled at your hostility to Amy's contribution. It seems
to me that if you were really interested in proving the
existence of extraterrestrial craft you would be interested in
increasing your ability to identify the kinds of images which
she is cataloging. Perhaps you are more interested in generating
a lot of publicity and excitement about images which are really
not so carefully vetted.


Best wishes,

Eric Jacobson






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 13

                  Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:44:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:29:59 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Maccabee


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
 >conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
 >phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

 >think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >people think, in this field.


That's why I 'like' photo cases in which the object is depicted
so clearly and has such an 'odd' shape that the object has to be
either the 'real thing (flying object not made by humans) or a
hoax. The final hoax determination generally cannot be
determined by the photo alone. The conclusion real or hoax is
based on the circumstantial evidence and the photo is "merely"
an aid to the recollection of the witness!

A photo a UFO does not make.

(Video can be harder to fake... but, as we know, it, too can be
faked.)







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   May > May 13

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:00:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:31:47 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 394 - 24 APRIL 2003

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

  -The CISU at the International Book Fair
- UFOs In Ancient Paintings?
- New UFO Novel


The CISU at the International Book Fair

For the second consecutive year, the Italian Center for
Ufological Studies will be present at the International Book
Fair, which will take place at the Lingotto Fiere of Turin
between 15 and 19 May.

As in last year, in fact, the CISU's publications will be on
display inside the Edizioni Avverbi booth.

Subscribers, supporters and those who are simply curious, will
be able to browse and perhaps purchase the various books,
monographs and periodicals, as well as meet members of the
Center's board of directors and secretariat, who will take turns
staffing the booth during the days of the display's run.

[Collaboration by Andrea Ferrero.]


UFOs In Ancient Paintings?

Falling rapidly on the heels of the periodical Focus, the
monthly scientific investigative report Newton also devotes
space in its May issue to a discussion of UFOs, with regards to
identifying images interpretable as UFOs in works of art from
previous centuries.

The brief article which is amply illustrated sheds light on the
opposing views of those who steadfastly maintain that these
concern extraterrestrial objects and, conversely, those who are
of the opposite opinion (particularly the Italian scholar Diego
Cuoghi, who has dedicated a Website to the debate:
http://www.sprezzatura.it/Art/Arte_UFO.htm).

[Newton, May.]


New UFO Novel

Once again making an appearance on newsstands is a new, science-
fiction-based novel released as part of the Urania Mondadori
Collection

It is entitled Il segreto di Conrad ("Conrad's Secret"), by Rudy
Rucker (the original 1985 title: The Secret of Life) and is set
in America during the 1960s where the myth about
extraterrestrial visitors has already taken a strong foothold.
The protagonist is obsessed with UFOs and, ironically, dwells on
being abducted and becoming one of "them."

The cover is also ufological in nature. The volume totals 203
pages and costs 3.55 Euro.

[Report by Paolo Toselli.]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Diego Cuoghi, Andrea Ferrero and Paolo Toselli.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino, No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto,
Freelance Italian>English Translator & Proofreader
44 Bickford Ave., Apt. 2
Revere, MA 02151
USA

Tel.: ++1.781.485.1683
FAX: ++1.781.485.1684
E-mail: gpresto@attbi.com
Webpage: http://www.proz.com/translator/723



- - -

(c) 2003 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 30.78.63 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 13

                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:49:03 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:57:32 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:59:09 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1
 >>>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer

 >>>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>>congratulations - you get an "A".

 ><snip>

 >Your response to my post gets a bit 'personal' in places.
 >Although I'd much rather discuss 'UFO' related issues, I
 >find that I have to deal with your unwarranted sniping.

John, you have called me "sniping", "self-taught amateur",
evasive, "defensive", "disgruntled former believer" and a "born
again skeptic" in response to what you felt I implied (but
didn't say) in my last reply to you. All I want to do is discuss
the scientific study of UFOs and related phenomena. Can we
please get on with our discussion without the name calling?

 >>John, how does one define a "genuine unknown"?

 >'Unknown' in _this_ instance means; not a balloon, airplane, bird
 >or any of the other ordinary things/objects that are usually
 >seen in the sky. A "UFO". As in; unidentified flying object.

I do not agree with your definition. According to Webster,
unknown means not identified or determined. If an object (or
objects) is sighted and/or video taped and/or photographed and
no one really knows what it is, then you (or I or anyone) cannot
claim to know what it is _not_ and still claim it is "unknown"
or unidentified. If it is unknown, one can only speculate as to
what it is not but this can never be established as fact until
it has been clearly identified. Whether the 'unknown' or UFO or
what ever it is turns out to be conventional aircraft, naturally
occurring or from another world or dimension, you (or I or
anyone) will never really know what it is not until we can
examine it up close and in person.

You keep insisting that unknown means something that is _not_ a
balloon, airplane, bird, or any other ordinary object usually
seen in the sky. I keep saying that it doesn't make sense to say
it can't be a balloon, airplane, bird or ordinary objects
because you simply do not know this for a fact. If it's unknown
then it's unknown. You can't claim it is unknown or unidentified
yet go around telling people it can't be a balloon, airplane,
bird, etc. because, when you get down to the nitty gritty, you
really don't know what it is or what it is not.

 >>How can anyone say what something is not if they don't even
 >>know what it is? If it's unknown,

 >Through a simple process of elimination, Amy. For example; 'if'
 >the image of the recorded object is clear enough to allow it, any
 >observer will be able to tell if the object doesn't have engines,
 >propellers or wings. That being the case, it's safe to eliminate
 >'airplane' as an explanation. Ditto the process for eliminating
 >birds, balloons, hub caps etc as an explanation. On video it is
 >possible to observe unusual or anomalous flight characteristics.
 >Add freak flight characteristics to an image of an 'unknown'
 >flying object and you have a "genuine unknown."

John, there are aircraft that do not have visible engines,
propellers or wings as in the X-33 and similar aircraft. Since
we do not know everything there is to know about every kind of
aircraft that exists, especially if it is top secret, I would
not be so presumptuous as to eliminate 'airplane' or any kind of
man-made aircraft just because you cannot see the engines, wings
or propellers.

For example:

"The wingless, lifting body aircraft design was initially
conceived as a means of landing an aircraft horizontally after
atmospheric reentry. The absence of wings would make the extreme
heat of re-entry less damaging to the vehicle. In 1962, Dryden
management approved a program to build a lightweight, unpowered
lifting body as a prototype to flight test the wingless concept.
It would look like a "flying bathtub," and was designated the
M2-F1, the "M" referring to "manned" and "F" referring to
"flight" version. It featured a plywood shell placed over a
tubular steel frame crafted at Dryden. Construction was
completed in 1963." http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/M2-
F1/HTML/EC64-404.html

And...

"Wingless "Lifting Bodies" Helped to Develop Space Shuttle

Lifting bodies, or wingless aircraft, whose unique shape allows
them to fly or glide without conventional wings, were designed
and flown by test pilots to fly back to Earth from space and
land like an airplane. These unique wingless vehicles generated
a database that led to the development of today's space shuttle
program. William H. Dana, a retired research engineer, has
flight-tested several versions of lifting bodies, while working
as a project pilot with NASA's manned lifting body program.

http://www.larc.nasa.gov/news_and_events/inside_pages/2000/00-079.html

And...

http://www.fas.org/spp/guide/usa/launch/x-33.htm

for some cool pictures!

As for eliminating the possibility an unknown is a bird,
balloon, hub cap, etc., if you can see these objects up close,
you will know what they are. If they are too distant to
identify, similar to the Mylar balloon images I posted at:

http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/ifocase1.htm

and

http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/Whatisit.htm

one would be speculating or guessing to declare the unknown is
not a bird, balloon, hub cap, etc. I have studied hundreds of
IFO images photographed and video taped from various angles,
distances and in various weather conditions. I have watched
ordinary flying objects become seemingly 'unidentified' in a
matter of minutes, sometimes seconds. If one does not know what
the object is being viewed, video taped or photographed, it is
wise to leave open all possible explanations and keep searching
for the truth.

In reference to what you call unusual or anomalous flight
characteristics, I've found these characteristics somewhat
dependent upon the "eye of the beholder". What may presented or
interpreted as "anomalous" or "unusual" by one person may not
appear the same to another. I have reviewed footage and
photographs presented to me by others who described the object
as "zig-zagging", "darting", "floating", "blinking in and out",
"morphing", etc. only to discover they were ordinary flying
objects such as birds, bugs, debris and conventional aircraft
described in UFO-like terms. These factors need to be considered
in our review of alleged UFO footage and photographs rather than
poo-poohed and dismissed.

As for adding "freak flight characteristics" to an unknown, what
seems 'freaky' to one person may not be so freaky to another if
they have seen it before in known flying objects.  Sometimes
people jump to the conclusion that because an object appears
unusual or unknown and flies unusually, it must be a UFO and
fail to re-examine their own bias and possible motives for
wanting an object to be a UFO rather than identified. These
misidentifications make the study of UFOs even more difficult
and ridiculed.

 >>It's either known or unknown, identified or unidentified. You can
 >>have it both ways.

 >I 'assume' that you meant to say; "I (can't) have it both
 >ways."

Yes, I meant to say "can't". Thank you for clarifying. ;>

 >Of course it is either 'known' or 'unknown.' You state the obvious.
 >My pictures and video footage was submitted for analysis by
 >experts. (Not self-taught amateurs, - no offense.)

We are both self-taught amateurs so what's wrong with that? (No
offense.)

 >They found
 >that the material I submitted depicted an 'unknown' (unidentified)
 >aerial object. They arrived at that conclusion by systematically
 >eliminating as many ordinary/prosaic objects as they could. No
 >one called them 'spaceships' or claimed they were from 'another
 >world.' What they said was; the objects captured on film or video
 >represented objects that were 'there' and which could not be
 >identified as anything 'known'. Ergo, 'unknown.'

John, did the experts you consulted say there was no possible
way the objects captured could be ordinary/prosaic objects or
did they only say they didn't know what they were - not
identified as anything known to them at that time? There is a
difference between the two statements, which is what I've been
trying to clarify all along.

 >You seem to be having some difficulty with the whole concept of
 >an 'unknown/unidentified' flying object.' Or, unidentified aerial
 >object, which ever term(s) you prefer.

No, John, it is you who is having difficulty understanding the
term 'unknown/unidentified'flying object'. You insist you can
know what something is _not_ yet, at the same time, not know
what it _is_. That's like a doctor telling a patient, "Well, I
don't know what's wrong with you but you are not dying." How can
you know and not know at the same time? Doesn't make sense
unless....you only presume to know what something cannot be
because that is what you want to believe ("you" as in the
general population).

 >Also, it hasn't escaped
 >my notice and that of others, that you haven't given Santiago
 >a 'straight' answer to any of his straight forward/simple
 >questions.

Oh, I seriously doubt there are that many "others" interested in
our conversations, John. Can we please stay focused on *our* own
discussion?

I appreciate you telling me when you don't understand something.
I am trying to give you simple, straight forward answers. I
speak in the manner in which I was taught in college when
discussing scientific methodology. It is very important that the
definitions of terms be clearly stated when discussing variables
and hypotheses. We can learn a lot from each other by clarifying
the terms used in our discussions.

 >Amy, nobody is saying that the objects (as recorded,) are
 >'space-ships' or from 'other worlds.' So I don't quite understand
 >your evasiveness (answering questions with questions) or what
 >your difficulty is with understanding what is meant by our use
 >of the term 'unknown.'

Perhaps, John, what you perceive as evasiveness is really my
refusal to use terms in the same context you use them.
Obviously, we do not agree on the meaning of the terms "unknown"
or unidentified. I have tried, repeatedly, to explain my concept
of these terms but you continue to press me for more "answers".
I give an answer but since it is not to your liking, you want
more. You know what? I don't think you even grasp the concepts I
have put forth and because you don't understand, you want me to
give you an answer you will like or can understand. Well, I'm
sorry, Sweetheart, I just don't know what else to do for you. I
am not going to say everything the way you want me to say it. I
will say what I have to say and you can take it or leave it.

 >Again, I 'assume' that you are compiling a set of pictures
 >and video of "known" (identified) flying objects in order to
 >be able to tell them apart from objects which cannot be
 >identified. ie; 'UFOs.' Or else why go through all the trouble!

Something like that except I leave an unknown as unknown until
further evidence is forthcoming.

 >If the purpose of your pictures is to use them in 'comparison'
 >to pictures of an 'unknown' flying object, then your pictures
 >are of a 'fake' UFO' A picture to be compared to other pictures
 >of 'UFOs' as we use the term to describe a 'genuine unknown/
 >unidentified' aerial object.

That is your interpretation, John, not mine. I clearly state the
purpose of the IFO Database and my studies of IFO's on my web site:

http://ifo.s5.com

"The photographs and video stills of Identified Flying Objects
(I.F.O.'s) on this web site are presented as a research tool for
comparison to and analysis of past, present and future video and
photographic materials containing images similar in appearance
and nature."

They are not "fake" UFOs because I know exactly what they are
(and state the same with each image). If they were fakes, I
would have to present them as "UFOs" even though I know what
they are. I do not call them UFOs, I call them IFO's as in
Identified Flying Objects. Plain and simple. The IFO Database is
a research tool to be used to compare images of IFO's to alleged
UFOs or any other images of unknown flying objects such as so-
called "orbs" and other objects under scientific investigation
and study.

Why is this so hard for you to understand, John, and why do you keep
re-interpreting what I say and/or twisting it to your liking?

 >You are 'defensive' in your responses. Nobody is calling you
 >a faker or deceptive. I was merely 'identifying' your pictures
 >for what they are... depictions of 'fake' UFOs. You challenge
 >people to identify your pix, Amy. There has to be some
 >reason for that. Your pix are intended to be compared to
 >existing photos/video of objects that have been identified
 >as 'unknown'. You have demonstrated that you have a
 >problem understanding what is meant by the term when I
 >or some other List member has used it. Instead of responding
 >directly to what is being said/asked you answer our questions
 >or comments with more questions. A 'question' is not an
 >answer.

There you go again, calling me names and demanding more answers
even though I keep giving you my answers.

 >>And nothing has been recorded intentionally out of focus in an
 >>effort to deceive. I aim the camera and let it run to see how it
 >>operates under certain conditions. If the image becomes blurred,
 >>I study the causes.

 >Gee, you must be trying to 'prove' something.

 >Amy, a disgruntled former believer does not an honest or
 >good skeptic make. When some folks find out that they were
 >fooled or deceived, the shame and anger they feel causes
 >them to bounce to the position which stands in complete polar
 >opposition to where they started out from. That is basically
 >what happened with you. You got snookered/fooled by a
 >couple of people, you disappeared for awhile, and then you
 >returned as a 'born again' skeptic. And a fierce one at that.
 >You took the strength and energy of your initial 'belief' and
 >put a new dress on it. From 'believer' to 'skeptic.'

LOL! You don't know me at all, John.

I have not been "snookered" or fooled by anyone (that I know
of). I simply saw something hovering behind my house in 1997
that I could not explain. It shocked me so much that I began
questioning everything I believed or disbelieved. I began
researching to find answers and left all UFO lists to avoid
distractions and to focus on my research. I encountered all
kinds of interesting characters (I'll have to tell you about
them some day <grin>) and concepts I never even imagined before.
What I learned through my studies has led me to write two books
(that I will condense into one because I don't have the time to
write two books) and has changed my perceptions forever.

I have always been a healthy skeptic, or whatever you want to
call it, otherwise I never would have looked beyond the obvious.
It was my intense need to know the truth that enabled me to keep
searching and reaching for more. You, of all people, should
understand the changes I've experienced due to my encounters
with the unknown. Instead you assume I am out to debunk UFO
sightings and claims and see me as the enemy. Did you ever stop
to think we might be on the same side? You can't even give me
the benefit of the doubt.

I know something terribly strange is going on and very little is
as it seems. The levels of deception we are subjected to each
day are incredible. The minute you believe...anything...you
become deceived. This is why I do not believe anything or make
assumptions about UFOs. (I cannot explain years of research in a
few posts so don't start badgering me to explain my research. I
am putting it in a book to make it as clear as possible. It is
quite complex but thorough research.)

 >You still 'believe' only it's now in the opposite of what it used
 >to be. Just remember the old saying:

 >"You can put all the lipstick and make-up you want to on a
 >hog and it will still be a hog." (Unless you've had a few drinks.
 >In which case the pig will look gorgeous!)

I don't believe either way, John. I do not believe "UFOs" exist
nor do I believe they don't. I simply do not view UFOs as
anything that simple. We are witnessing a complex mixture of
unexplained phenomena, man-made UFOs (CC&D), misidentifications
and deliberate deception. If we don't make some kind of effort
to sort each category from the mess, we will never get to the
truth.

I refuse to accept every piece of alleged UFO footage or UFO
photograph as "genuine" not matter how many "experts" have
analyzed the footage/photographs and declared them "authentic".
Year after year I have watched many of these esteemed "experts"
and professionals make declarations about the authenticity of
some UFO footage or photograph only to turn around and admit
they had been fooled by a hoaxer or charlatan. In contrast, I
have also watched many pieces of UFO footage and UFO photographs
declared hoaxes when they were not. Some of the best UFO footage
and photographs have been swept under the rug and forgotten
either because they revealed too much and someone wanted them
out of the public's perceptions or because others were too swift
in declaring it a hoax.

 >I do not deceive, I fight deception. What do you do?

 >What are you _implying_ I do?

There you go again, John, answering a question with another
question. ;>

 >Cheap shot, Amy. You swipe at me. Did I hit a nerve? I didn't
 >mean to. I was merely trying to ascertain if you were going to
 >include any images of "UFOs" among the many 'known' ones you are
 >using to quiz/educate list members with.

I tell you what, John, just for you... If I find any images of
what I consider to be UFOs, I will post them on a web site. I
can't put them on the same web site as the IFO Database because
they are UFOs not IFO's. However, be careful what you wish
for, you may not like what you get. (winks to Bruce)

 >>>Contact Tommy King or Bruce Maccabee privately and ask them for
 >>>their permission to use some examples of the many
 >>>_genuinely_anomalous_ aerial objects that they have archived at
 >>>their respective web sites.

 >>I've already contacted both gentlemen.

 >Excellent!

Finally, a kind word! Thank you, John.

Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 13

                              Taken For A Ride

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:01:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:25:17 -0400
Subject: Taken For A Ride

Source: The Herald Sun - Melbourne, Australia

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6411075%255E11869,00.h
tml


Taken For A Ride...

By Samantha Amjadali

11 May 03


HOW many times have you read about someone's purported alien
abduction and yearned for your turn?

When, you secretly ask yourself, will your mothership come in?
But sooner or later you're going to have to face the truth: you
may not be abductee material and, frankly, even if you are, you
probably won't remember the experience.

A simpler, more effective alternative is to pay someone to dress
up like an alien and pretend to abduct you. That way you'll be
able to remember and relish every last poke and prod for years
to come.

We kid you not, according to the barmy folks at New York-based
Alien Abductions Incorporated, plenty of people (they don't say
how many, naturally) pay to be abducted each year.

"Most people will probably never have the opportunity to be
abducted by aliens," says AAI at its promotional website.

"And even those elite few who are selected for abduction receive
no assurances that they will fully remember their experience -
  much less a guarantee that their abduction will be everything
that they hoped it would be."

So why wait?

For a modest fee (again they don't say how much) AAI's "highly
trained and professional staff" will provide you with
"personalized, realistic memories of the alien abduction that
you have been waiting for your entire life?"

AAI's skilled doctors, hypnotists, and memory implant
technicians will work with you in pre-abduction orientation
sessions to create a one-off, highly personalised abduction
according to your tastes: interspecies breeding, medical
experimentation. You name it, AAI offer all sorts of services.

If you're slightly wary of a solo abduction you can bring a
friend, or a bunch of them, along. AAI offers Group Abduction
packages, which they claim are perfect for corporate retreats,
school groups, and theme parties.

"Many people find shared abductions to be an interesting and
economical alternative to a standard Abduction Experience.
Because the same abduction scenario data is implanted in all the
participants at once, the cost is lower for each individual."

They guarantee the best abduction experience for the lowest
price.

After being abducted customers are bundled off to AAI's main
research facility on the outskirts of New York City. The
research facility, cum holiday resort and spa, offers an alien
abductology centre, a health club, aromatherapy complex and gift
shop.

Additional services include a 24/7 Surveillance Special "to give
you that added edge of real-life paranoia" as well as an
exclusive Evidence Kit, which contains "proof" of your fake
abduction.

For those wanting something a tad more tasteful, AAI's Crop
Circle Service has proven popular. A hit with rural clients,
their urban Crop Circle Service offers smaller crop circles,
perfect in size for "largish" front and back yards. All crop
circles are clearly visible from the air, so passing alien ships
can spot them.

And you never know, extraterrestrials may see the beacons and
drop by for a cuppa. They may even take you back with them.

www.alienabductions.com/customer/question.html

~End~

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 Years Of Research Service






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   May > May 13

                        Re: UFOs In Africa? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:01:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:28:47 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Gevaerd


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:30:21 +0200
 >Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa?

 >>From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
 >>Subject: UFOs In Africa?

 >>I am asking your help once more.

 >>I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
 >>countries in Africa.

 >>If you could help me, I will appreciate it.

 >The books to get are those by the late Cynthia Hind, who lived
 >in Harare, Zimbabwe. She catalogued a number of good cases. She
 >also produced a monthly newsletter.

 >There was also a young man in Tanzania who wrote to us last
 >year, looking for Africa UFO info, and he may have collected
 >some new info.

Thiago:

Cynthia Hind's book UFOs in Africa has been published in Brazil.
I guess it is sold out by now, since it was published over 15
years ago... But I have a copy if you want it.

Cynthia was like an 'African Irene Granchi'. She started her
research early and was a tireless investigator. Cynthia was the
one who gave to the world some of the best cases on UFOs in
Africa.

She came to Brazil 2 or 3 times.

Best...

A. J.








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             Brazilian UFO & Hoaxer Cases At Seattle Conference

From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:07:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:50:13 -0400
Subject: Brazilian UFO & Hoaxer Cases At Seattle Conference


Dear Friends,

Next week I will be speaking at the 3rd Annual Northest UFO
Paranormal Conference, in Seattle, on UFOs in Brazil. I will
present at least 5 dozen good cases from all over the country.
Many from the Amazon and several remarkable abductions.

Please see details at:

http://www.seattlechatclub.org/NWUFO.html

I will save at least 30 minutes of my talk to describe the scam
perpetrated by Urandir Fernandes de Oliveira, who has already
been discussed here and shown as the biggest Brazilian UFO
hoaxer of all time. I have detailed info on his fraudulent UFO
activity and will be glad to answer any questions.


A. J. Gevaerd, editor
Brazilian UFO Magazine







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:40:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:53:28 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:07:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
 >>further study.

 >Than you for your reply. I will not ask you what UFO footage you
 >are mentioning because your answer is enough for me. However I
 >will be very honest with you.

 >What's your point with this IFO test like if you were a teacher
 >in a classroom? To prove that someone can be fooled by a simple
 >mylar balloon? In our research we have seen these examples a
 >thousand times for many years. So this is like going back to
 >kindergarden again and we can not afford such a waste of time.

Santiago, if you don't have the time to do this kind of study,
locate the delete button on your keyboard.

As for this "we" you refer to (someone else on this list keeps
speaking for others and you too - ah, yes, safety in numbers),
I've received a lot of very positive and encouraging feedback
from people on the list via the list and via private E-mail not
to mention over 265 hits on the first Pop Quiz page. Someone
seems to have the time and interest.

 >We are in 2003 and are urged to get to the Real Thing. We can
 >not give us the luxury to waste any time. Since we don't have
 >the support of the goverments or the scientists we are
 >researching by ourselves.

 >Ufology is a science of study and learning and it seems to me
 >that someone or 'someones' are out there, waiting for us to get
 >to the knowledge and 'it' or 'them' are giving us clues.

By 'someone or someones', "it" or "them", are you referring to
'aliens' giving us clues?

 >So we
 >must pursue our quest for the truth and the knowledge of this
 >reality. We must go on looking straight forward without wasting
 >time.

By 'this reality', do you mean _your_ reality?

 >You have not mentioned in your research the night time UFO
 >videos and we have some spectacular ones like the famous
 >triangle over Belgium officially recognized by their Air Force
 >as a UFO.

Excuse me, Santiago, I didn't know I was required to mention the
triangles (you have a lot of rules). The Belgium footage is
amazing, however, I consider these objects more likely man-made
than made by "it" or "them". Therefore, I can't quite call it a
UFO. (IMHO)

Since I have been studying these particular types of objects for
many years, I have found more evidence to support the contention
these objects are man-made and not unidentified or unknown to
the US government and military than the contention they are made
by something or somethings non-human (I just happen to be
working on a web site to present my research in this area too,
what a coincidence!!).

Hey, pssst - just because an air force calls something a UFO
doesn't necessarily mean it's unidentified. I mean, if they know
what it is, do you really expect them to tell us?

 >You have not mentioned either other important footage from
 >official sources and we have also some definitive ones. Therefore
 >and with due all respect I think you still have homework to do
 >in your research.

As do you.

 >This is my opinion and as far as I'm concerned if you want to
 >remain in kindergarden its all right with me.

There's a lot to be said for kindergarten! You get to take naps,
have snacks, play in the sandbox... Unfortunately, when you're
my age, it's the bullstuff ya gotta watch out for instead the
catstuff - a lot of it.

Please note, Santiago, that I speak for myself and let others do
their own talking. You should try it.

So nice talking with you!

Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:57:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:54:39 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:44:15 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >>can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >>far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >>a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >>people think, in this field.

 >That's why I 'like' photo cases in which the object is depicted
 >so clearly and has such an 'odd' shape that the object has to be
 >either the 'real thing (flying object not made by humans) or a
 >hoax. The final hoax determination generally cannot be
 >determined by the photo alone. The conclusion real or hoax is
 >based on the circumstantial evidence and the photo is "merely"
 >an aid to the recollection of the witness!

 >A photo a UFO does not make.

 >(Video can be harder to fake... but, as we know, it, too can be
 >faked.)

Hi, Bruce:

You are so right, there are many factors to consider.

I was just wondering...in your analyses, do you ever totally
rule out the possibility an object may be something conventional
or have natural causes? Or do you allow for the possibility
forthcoming information may change your conclusion at a later
date? (As in new information discovered later that may indicate
an object was something other than identified or unidentified.)

Thanks, Bruce!


Amy






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:16:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:58:31 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>>I will wait your straight answer to this because I'm very
 >>>interested to know how you apply your criteria in these studies.
 >>>But please let's talk straight and clear avoiding the rhetoric.

 >>I _am_ talking straight, Santiago. I'm just not saying what you
 >>want me to say. Take it or leave it.

 >If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
 >conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
 >phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

 >I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >people think, in this field.

I couldn't agree with you more, Ian.

Well said! Hit the nail on the head. The best we can conclude
about something unknown is that the data is inconclusive.

Thank you!


Amy







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                  Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:11:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:02:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Groff


 >From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:00:26 +0000
 >Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394

 >ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

 >UFOs In Ancient Paintings?

 >Falling rapidly on the heels of the periodical Focus, the
 >monthly scientific investigative report Newton also devotes
 >space in its May issue to a discussion of UFOs, with regards to
 >identifying images interpretable as UFOs in works of art from
 >previous centuries.

 >The brief article which is amply illustrated sheds light on the
 >opposing views of those who steadfastly maintain that these
 >concern extraterrestrial objects and, conversely, those who are
 >of the opposite opinion (particularly the Italian scholar Diego
 >Cuoghi, who has dedicated a Website to the debate:
 >http://www.sprezzatura.it/Art/Arte_UFO.htm).

This is a subject that I am extremely interested in.
Unfortunately the above link failed. Do you have a correct link?

Thanks,

Terry Groff
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/







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              FOIA Request To NASA Re Shuttle Columbia Disaster

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:25:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:06:07 -0400
Subject: FOIA Request To NASA Re Shuttle Columbia Disaster

To: president@whitehouse.gov

TO:    Administrator
        U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration
        ATTN: Freedom of Information Manager
        300 E Street, S.W.
        Washington, DC  20546

FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
        3518 Martha Custis Drive
        Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  May 13, 2003

According to recent news accounts, certain NASA officials are
withholding from public view various insider-interview
transcripts collected by and for the specially commissioned
board to investigate the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster.

In an effort to help counter that unnecessary, unwise, and
dangerous policy decision (which may or may not have been
prompted by vested interests committed to shielding certain NASA
personnel from accountability/culpability), I hereby submit this
e-formatted letter as a formal freedom-of-information request
that you furnish me (1) a copy of all the interview transcripts
in question, plus (2) a copy of all NASA-generated and NASA-
received records pertaining to the NASA decision to withhold
those transcripts from public view.

Because of their inherent, highly significant value to the
general public in understanding and evaluating NASA policies,
operations, activities, and programs, the sought-for transcripts
and related records deserve immediate, unqualified public
disclosure.  What's more, my being granted full access to them
for analysis and wide dissemination thereof will aid my
incentive for soliciting and eliciting the emergence of certain
prospective whistleblowers privy to any NASA-
committed/condoned/concealed wrongdoing as regards the disaster.
In this regard, I further request that the NASA inspector
general's office be searched for all such whistleblower-
submitted statements/evidence to date, and that a copy thereof
be made and sent promptly to me as part of your processing of
this request.

Since I make this request mainly as a journalist serving the
worldwide audience of the Internet news-and-information website
of http://www.ufocity.com ("LWB Chronicles" column), I ask that
you waive all records-search/review fees incident to your
fulfilling it.

Please note that, by snail-mail (Certified No. 7002 0460 0001
7272 9346), I'm sending to you a signed printout of this e-
formatted letter.


LARRY W. BRYANT

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief, UFOcity.com

== Information is PROPERTY, and public information is PUBLIC
property. ==






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                       Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opendf.com.br>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:07:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:10:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa? - Ticchetti


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>;
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>;
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:01:14 -0300
 >Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa?

 >>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>;
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>;
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:30:21 +0200
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs In Africa?

 >>>From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>;
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:01:01 -0300
 >>>Subject: UFOs In Africa?

 >>>I am asking your help once more.

 >>>I am looking for cases reported on the African continent. All
 >>>countries in Africa.

 >>>If you could help me, I will appreciate it.

 >>The books to get are those by the late Cynthia Hind, who lived
 >>in Harare, Zimbabwe. She catalogued a number of good cases. She
 >>also produced a monthly newsletter.

 >>There was also a young man in Tanzania who wrote to us last
 >>year, looking for Africa UFO info, and he may have collected
 >>some new info.

 >Thiago:

 >Cynthia Hind's book UFOs in Africa has been published in Brazil.
 >I guess it is sold out by now, since it was published over 15
 >years ago... But I have a copy if you want it.

 >Cynthia was like an 'African Irene Granchi'. She started her
 >research early and was a tireless investigator. Cynthia was the
 >one who gave to the world some of the best cases on UFOs in
 >Africa.

 >She came to Brazil 2 or 3 times.


Dear friend Gevaerd,

I do have that precisous book 'UFOs in Africa', by Cynthia Hind.
I am discovering so many cases in Africa that I should write a
book not an article (kidding)


Thank you very much.












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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:33:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:14:25 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:57:32 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:59:09 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>>>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1
 >>>>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer

 >>>>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>>>congratulations - you get an "A".

 >><snip>

 >>Your response to my post gets a bit 'personal' in places.
 >>Although I'd much rather discuss 'UFO' related issues, I
 >>find that I have to deal with your unwarranted sniping.

 >John, you have called me "sniping", "self-taught amateur",
 >evasive, "defensive", "disgruntled former believer" and a "born
 >again skeptic" in response to what you felt I implied (but
 >didn't say) in my last reply to you. All I want to do is discuss
 >the scientific study of UFOs and related phenomena. Can we
 >please get on with our discussion without the name calling?

<snip>

 >>>I've already contacted both gentlemen.

 >>Excellent!

 >Finally, a kind word! Thank you, John.

 >Sincerely,

 >A. Hebert

Hello Amy,

Excuse the huge snip but, that was a _twenty page_ response. If
I were to respond point by point it would turn into a 40 or 50
page e-mail and take up the better part of my day. Not being
independently wealthy I do have to make time to earn a living.
Again, sorry for the snip.

Amy, it all boils down to what is considered to be acceptable or
'enough' proof for each individual. For some it would take a UFO
landing in their backyard. A landing on the Whitehouse lawn
wouldn't be quite good enough for others.

Speaking as a witness to the phenomena, what it took for me was
a series of sightings and one uncomfortably close-up encounter
to convince me that something very 'real' is going on. It is
that way for many. People are skeptical until they have a
sighting where they cannot deny that what they have' seen can
only be described as a "UFO" (flying saucer.)

There is more than enough hard evidence for the reality of
phenomena. (The material released by the Belgian government
being one good example.) There is in fact more evidence
available than would be needed to convict someone of murder in
an open court of law. But like I said, for 'some' there just
isn't enough evidence in the world -short of being subjected to
an anal probe by aliens- themselves.

No amount of debate is going to shift anyone from their
position. Again for 'some' no amount of evidence would be enough
either. They would just continue to raise the bar (requirements
for 'proof') or continue to insist that anyone who believes UFOs
are real are just gullible and anyone who claims to have
witnessed them is either mistaken or a liar.

That's just the way it is.

The reason why I invested in expensive photo equipment was
because I agreed with many people that anecdotal reports are
just not enough. I figured if I had photos and video to back up
my sighting reports that it would help to make the testimony
more credible. But no. After going through all the expense and
trouble of recording my sightings the bar is raised once again
and I am told that pictures and video don't mean anything
because they can be faked.

Horse players have a saying... "I can't win for losing." That's
the case for anyone who dares to try to prove that they have
seen a UFO. But hey, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. It
is only in response to the dictates of my own conscience that I
participate in any public forums at all.

"Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn" whether you or anybody
else 'believes' it or not. I don't feel like it's my
responsibility to convince anyone of anything. I do however feel
that it is my responsibility to _report._ And, to do it as
honestly and responsibly as I can.

That, I have done.

The rest is up to those who read these posts to decide for
themselves what it is they want to accept or not. Like I said, I
don't (personally) care one way or the other. All I will say is
this; keep an open mind. Do not dismiss the possibility that
UFOs are real and represent 'alien' craft. Don't dismiss (out of
hand, without careful scrutiny) the testimony of those witnesses
who have either seen or somehow interacted with UFOs or their
occupants. For myself, I can tell you that 'some' of these
people, myself included, are not lying, imagining, or
misperceiving what we have seen or been through.

What people do with that information is up to them


Regards,

John Velez, UFO/alien witness







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                       Re: Taken For A Ride - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:18:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Taken For A Ride - Tonnies


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:01:08 EDT
 >Subject: Taken For A Ride

<snip>

 >For those wanting something a tad more tasteful, AAI's Crop
 >Circle Service has proven popular. A hit with rural clients,
 >their urban Crop Circle Service offers smaller crop circles,
 >perfect in size for "largish" front and back yards. All crop
 >circles are clearly visible from the air, so passing alien ships
 >can spot them.

 >And you never know, extraterrestrials may see the beacons and
 >drop by for a cuppa. They may even take you back with them.

 >www.alienabductions.com/customer/question.html


Whoever wrote this artcle thinking that the presumed staff at
"Alien Abductions, Inc." was for real was himself taken for
quite a ride. It's a clever satirical site, not reality.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies
macbot@yahoo.com

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:39:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:01:06 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:48:04 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:07:44 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>We are in 2003 and are urged to get to the Real Thing. We can
 >>not give us the luxury to waste any time. Since we don't have
 >>the support of the goverments or the scientists we are
 >>researching by ourselves.

 >Santiago,

 >You seem to be confused about the meaning of 'UFO'. In the US we
 >generally take this to mean an 'Unidentified Flying Object',
 >just that and no more. You seem to be using it as a synonym for
 >'extraterrestrial craft'. Any image that is unidentified is a
 >UFO. There's no case that such an image is an extraterrestrial
 >craft untill someone has carefully excluded every other possible
 >identification. Amy's contribution is to the latter task.

 >How will you be sure that you have evidence of the Real Thing
 >unless you are able to definitively discriminate between an
 >image which has no other plausible explanation than
 >"extraterrestrial craft" and an image of the type which Amy is
 >cataloging? I am very skeptical of your implication that you can
 >identify such images as Amy has cataloged without any problem.
 >The analysis of photos, videos and films of supposed UFOs is not
 >at all an established science.

 >So I'm puzzled at your hostility to Amy's contribution. It seems
 >to me that if you were really interested in proving the
 >existence of extraterrestrial craft you would be interested in
 >increasing your ability to identify the kinds of images which
 >she is cataloging. Perhaps you are more interested in generating
 >a lot of publicity and excitement about images which are really
 >not so carefully vetted.

Your statements were too good to be snipped. Can't improve on
perfection! <grin>

The reason I set up the IFO Database was because I was so tired
of all the bogus images of 'UFOs' going around and so little
being done to study the true nature of these images. But before
the IFO Database, I began studying images of IFO's for my own
personal research and the need for some kind of comparison tool
to use in my study of UFOs and alleged UFO images. Once I could
see the similarities between some images of alleged UFOs and
IFO's, I could then place these images on the back burner and
focus my studies on potential UFOs and better evidence. I want
to study UFOs not IFO's, hoaxes and misidentifications.
Unfortunately, this field is full of claims and images but so
little research.

Some people seem to feel threatened when their UFO images and
claims are put under scrutiny expecting, instead, their words
and images to be accepted without question. These are also the
individuals who complain the most about those conducting more
scientific research. Perhaps it's because they have the most to
lose.

Thank you, Eric!


Amy







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 13

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 19

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:07:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:14:30 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 19


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

       UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 19
May 14, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-Mail: Masinaigan@aol.com
Web: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


RUINS OF KADATH FOUND
IN ANTARCTICA?

       A California TV crew missing since November 2002, a
video they left behind and a mission by U.S. Navy SEALs
are the key elements in a story that claims extensive
prehistoric ruins have been found under the ice of
Antarctica.
       "The U.S. government said it will seek to block the
airing of a video found by Navy rescuers in Antarctica
that purportedly reveals that a massive archaeological dig
is underway two miles (3,200 meters) beneath the ice."
       "The AtlantisTV production crew that shot the video
is still missing."
       "Attorneys for the Beverly Hills-based AtlantisTV
stressed that the company's primary concern is for the
safety and welfare of the crew.  But they stated they will
'vigorously oppose' any attempts to 'censor material that
is clearly in the public interest and public domain.'  The
icy continent of Antarctica, they point out, belongs to no
nation.  The U.S. has no jurisdiction there."
       "'That video is the property of AtlantisTV,' said a
company spokesman, 'We shot it.  It's ours.  And as soon
as it is rightfully restored to us, we're going to air it.
End of story.'"
       "Two Navy officers who saw the tape described its
contents to National Science Foundation (NSF) researchers
upon their return to the Amundsen-Scott Station at the
South Pole, according to sources at McMurdo Station, the
main American base in Antarctica."
       "'They said it showed spectacular ruins and other
things they couldn't go into,' an NSF scientist reported.
'We chalked it up to some kind of subzero-induced delusion
until a chopper (helicopter--J.T.) full of Navy SEALs
landed and picked them up and took off.  Now, we're
scratching our heads.'"
       "Officials of the U.S. Naval Support Task Force,
Antarctica deny the story or the possession of any video
shot by the missing AtlantisTV crew."
       Science fiction author Howard Phillips Lovecraft
(1890-1937) claimed in several stories that a prehistoric
city existed in Antarctica called "Kadath of the Cold
Waste."
       Lovecraft described its "discovery" in his novel At
the Mountains of Madness, written between January and
March 1931.  Incredibly, one of his passages is a precise
description of a scene in the AtlantisTV video.
       Lovecraft wrote, "But the salient object of the place
was the titanic stone ramp, which, eluding the archways by
a sharp turn outward into the open floor, wound  spirally
up the stupendous cylindrical wall like an inside
counterpart of those once climbing outside the monstrous
towers or ziggurats of ancient Babylon...The thing was
excellently preserved up to the present top of the tower--
a highly remarkable circumstance in view of its exposure--
and its shelter had done much to protect the bizarre and
disturbing cosmic sculptures on the walls."
       "As we stepped out into the awesome half-daylight of
this monstrous cylinder-bottom--fifty million years old,
and without doubt the most primally ancient structure ever
to meet our eyes--we saw that the ramp-traversed sides
stretched dizzily up to a height of fully sixty feet (18
meters)."
       "According to the sculptures, the original tower had
stood in the centre of an immense circular plaza; and had
been perhaps 500 or 600 feet (150 to 180 meters) high,
with tiers of horizontal discs near the top and a row of
needle-like spires along the upper rim."
       "News of the video, which Navy sources said they
found in an abandoned supply dump 100 miles (160
kilometers) west of Vokstok Station, came on the heels of
U.S. attempts to strike passages from Raising Atlantis,
the upcoming novel by Thomas Greanias that is the basis
for AtlantisTV's popular online Atlantis Mapping Project
channel."
       "Federal officials agreed to allow an uncensored
version of Raising Atlantis to go on sale in April (2003)
at Amazon.com as an e-book.  But they won court approval
to 'block certain portions that might compromise national
security' from the hardcover edition due in bookstores at
year's end."
       "The novel focuses on a secret US. military
expedition that discovers ancient ruins two miles beneath
the ice in Antarctica.  Recent events in Antarctica have
raised questions about whether the story is fiction or a
novelization of actual events" during the years 2000 and
2001.
       "Sources say the current federal review is focusing
on the novel's depiction of "Federal Emergency Plan D,"
which officially doesn't exist, although parts of the plan
have become public in the wake of the September 11 (2001)
terrorist attacks on America and calls for the activation
of a 'shadow government' to operate in secret hideouts
outside the national capital" of Washington, D.C. "to
ensure the survival of the United States of America and
the continuity of government in the event of a global
catastrophe or nuclear Armageddon."
(Editor's Note:  True enough.  Immediately after the
attacks, the USA's Federal Emergency Management Agency or
FEMA implemented the Continuity of Government or COG Plan,
operating out of Mount Weather and Mount Pony in the state
of Virginia.)
       "'It's the specifics of Stage Two and Stage Three (of
the COG Plan) detailed in Raising Atlantis that concern
federal officials,'" an AtlantisTV spokesman said.
       "'Hell, I didn't even know about Stage One and the
shadow government until 9-11, let alone Stage Two or Stage
Three,' said one CIA source on condition of anonymity."
(See the Atlantis Mapping Project news release for
November 17, 2002, "U.S. discovers 'spectacular ruins' in
Antarctica captured on video."  Also The Annotated H.P.
Lovecraft, edited by S.T. Joshi, Dell Publishing, New
York, N.Y., 1997, pages 302 and 303.  Merci beaucoup a
Robert Fischer pour ces nouvelles.)
(Editor's Comment:  Welcome to H.P. Lovecraft Week at UFO
Roundup.  The Kadath ruins are just a start.  Wait till
you see what else has been found in recent months.)


UFO FLAP BREAKS OUT
IN THE CRIMEA

       On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, eyewitness Lenura A.
Azizova, 53, "since 1991 a resident of Simferopol,"
capital of the Crimea (also known as the Krym Autonomous
Republic in the Ukraine--J.T.) "stepped out of her house
at No. 13 Zapadnaya Street into her yard, and suddenly she
noticed a bright flash in the sky and a pulsating light in
the middle of the constellation Auriga.  The light was
very bright, looking like an electric lamp."
       "The object, according to Mrs. Azizova, was pulsating
constantly with red, violet, yellow and white colors.  It
was moving in a zigzagging trajectory, up and down through
the sky.  Definitely neither a satellite nor an airplane.
The object was totally soundless.  After five minutes of
observation, she lost it from sight as the object flew
away."
       The next day, on Thursday, April 24, 2003, "a disk-
shaped UFO was seen hovering over Evpatoriyskoye shosse
(highway--J.T.), northwest of Simferopol's outskirts, near
the turn that leads to the Feliks Dzerzhinskiy collective
farm."
       On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 8 p.m., "two
residents of Simferopol, Alexei and Aleksandr Zavus, from
the yard of their home in the 'original downtown'" of the
millenia-old Crimean city, "observed an unusual object in
the southwestern part of the sky, not far from the star
Sirius."
       "Suddenly, the 'bright white star,' brighter than
even Sirius, appeared high in the sky after a flash.  It
was hovering for several seconds, slowly moving, and then
suddenly faded away, like an electric lamp being shut
off."
       On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, a UFO appeared three
times over Lenin Square in Simferopol.  The sightings were
at 8:45, 9:10 and 9:12 p.m.
       UFO Roundup correspondent Anton A. Anfalov reported,
"While standing in Lenin Square, right in the center of
Simferopol, and talking to my friend, Mr. V. Zdorov, about
UFOs, aliens, alien implants and underground bases, we
noticed several light flashes of a white-silver color and
a ruby-red color to the northeast."
       "This was definitely neither an airplane nor a
satellite, because the flashes were short, stationary, and
there was a big time lag of two to five minutes between
them.  This clearly indicates that the flashes were from a
hovering object or an object that vividly demonstrated
itself to us in a direct connection to the topic of our
talk."  (Many thanks to Anton A. Anfalov for these
reports.)


SADDAM "SPACE SPEECH"
HAS IRAQIS TALKING

       As predicted, ousted dictator Saddam Hussein did make
a speech to the Iraqi people last week.  But there was
some question as to whether the speech was made from the
moon or from a gigantic disk-shaped UFO orbiting the
Earth.
       On Monday, May 5, 2003, Australia's Sydney Morning
Herald "said it received the 14-minute tape from two men
in Baghdad."
       "If authentic, it would be the first message from
Saddam since Baghdad fell April 9 (2003).  The Herald was
unable to confirm whether the tired-sounding voice on the
tape is Saddam."
       According to UFO Roundup's Middle East correspondent
Ayesha al-Khatabi, some residents of Baghdad claim to have
heard Saddam's 15-minute broadcast over their household
radio sets.
       "Their impression is that it was a live broadcast,"
Ayesha reported, "My friend Hiba Rashid says she and her
family heard it live.  One of her uncles was changing the
frequencies on their Grundig radio when he heard Saddam's
voice.  He called everyone in the house to come and
listen.  It (the broadcast) was on 1320 on the AM band.
Hiba says she recognized Saddam's voice, but there was a
lot of static."
       "Saddam assured the listeners that he was well, that
his sons, Uday and Qusay, were well, and urged Iraqis to
resist the occupation.  There was no mention of the moon
or outer space or aliens."
       Last week, Mohammed Daud al-Hayyat reported that the
"hot rumor" in Baghdad was that Saddam would shortly make
a radio speech "from the moon" in "four or five days."
The actual broadcast was made during that time frame.
(See UFO Roundup, volume 8, number 18 for May 7, 2003,
"Surprise appearance by Saddam startles Iraqis," page 1.)
       "U.S. officials are studying an audio tape that is
said to be of fallen leader Saddam Hussein speaking from
inside Iraq sometime after April 28 (2003)," which was
Saddam's sixty-sixth birthday.  "U.S. officials don't know
whether he is alive."
       In other developments in Iraq, a black helicopter
made a surprise appearance over al-Zafaraniya, a
neighborhood on the south side of Baghdad, last week.
       "Zafaraniya is a working-class neighborhood with a
wide, well-integrated ethnic mix.  Sunni and Shiite
Muslims interact and intermarry and live side by side with
Christians, Kurds and other minorities.  The streets are
unpaved and dusty.  Stone walls surround dust-colored two-
story houses made of concrete and conceal well-tended
courtyards with flower gardens."
       "People were startled last week when they heard the
sound of a helicopter engine right above their rooftops,"
Ayesha reported, "When they went outside, they saw a black
helicopter hovering overhead.  A side door opened, and a
flood of leaflets came falling out.  The wind (rotor
turbulence--J.T.) blew the leaflets all over the
neighborhood.  Few people actually saw a leaflet or read
the Arabic message on it.  The people have seen many, many
Anglo-American helicopters but never before one of the
mystery black helicopters."
       According to USA Today, "Last week, for instance, a
U.S. military helicopter dropped leaflets over the
Zafaraniya neighborhood in south Baghdad.  Most blew away
before anyone could retrieve them.  So few people actually
saw what they said.  But that didn't stop the local rumor
mill from churning out theories about the mysterious
missive.  Soon many Zafaraniya residents had convinced
themselves that they were about to be thrown out of their
homes by the U.S. military--a striking example of their
willingness to assume the worst about American
intentions."
       "Over cups of thick Turkish coffee, Zafaraniya
residents are eager to discuss the U.S. occupation and
share their more fanciful theories."
       "Among the theories rampant in Baghdad and
Zafaraniya--that Saddam was an American agent all along
and is now safely in CIA custody.  Or, alternatively, that
he's still in hiding and preparing to return to power."
(See USA Today for Wednesday, May 7, 2003, "Conspiracy
theories and rumors about U.S. intentions swirl in
Baghdad," page 2A and for Thursday, May 8, 2003, "New
audio tape is reported to be of Saddam after the war,"
page 4A.  Many thanks to Ayesha al-Khatabi for the
additional information.)


UFO FLOTILLA CAUSES
PANIC IN AUSTRALIA'S
NORTHERN TERRITORY

       "A set of mysterious bright lights in the Northern
Territory's night sky have residents in the beachside
suburb of Nightcliff abuzz with tales of an alien
encounter."
       "'People were out on the road, pointing to the bright
lights and yelling it was an alien invasion,' mother of
three Yvonne Morris said, 'People were just stunned.'"
       "The Northern Territory News was flooded with calls
from people who all say they saw the same thing from their
Nightcliff homes--eight bright yellowish-orange lights in
perfect formation over the Timor Sea" north of Australia.
       "Brad MacDonald, 48, was at the Nightcliff Jetty
fishing with family and friends when he saw the lights on
Saturday (May 3, 2003) about 9 p.m.'"
       "'I've never seen anything like it--it was bloody
strange,' Mr. MacDonald said."
       "But he said he had a strange feeling before he saw
the glowing lights.  'I thought it was odd that because
the fish were biting like hell, and then, all of a sudden,
the tide went out.'"
       "He described the lights as bright orange, about one
kilometer away, and in perfect formation."
       "'My mate reckons they were weather balloons, but I
disagree--they were too perfect.  There were forty people
at the jetty, and we were all intrigued.'"
       "Mrs. Morris and her four children were sitting on
the verandah of their beachfront property when the orange-
yellow lights first appeared."
       "'The eight lights were 45 degrees from each other
and appeared to be fairly structured.'"
       "UFO sightings are fairly common in the Northern
Territory--no place more so than Wycliff Well, N.T., 1,100
kilometers (660 miles) south of Darwin, where Holiday Park
owner Lew Farkas is the local expert on UFOs, having seen
them with monotonous regularity over 18 years."
       "'The closest look I got was one of the spaceship's
portholes, but I didn't see the alien bloke inside,' Mr.
Farkas, 54, said last night (Monday, May 5, 2003)."
       "He said the formation described by the Nightcliff
residents was similar to ones he had seen."
       "'It sounds like it was a mothership, with the
supporting craft on the sides,' he said."
       Australian "Weather Bureau senior forecaster Pradeep
Singh said his bureau did not see anything unusual on its
radar."  (See the Northern Territory News for May 6, 2003,
"Bright lights spark UFO rumours."  Many thanks to Diane
Harrison and Clinton Dodge of the Australian UFO Research
Network--AUFORN--and John Hayes for forwarding this
newspaper article.)


UFO SIGHTED IN NIAGARA,
NORTH CAROLINA

       "A local man and his wife saw what he describes as a
UFO Wednesday night," April 30, 2003.
       "The unidentified flying object appeared as a bright
white light, hovered for a minute, and then flew across
the sky 'with the speed of a meteor,' said Fred Lloyd, an
assistant golf pro at the Whispering Pines Golf Course."
       "The light appeared to him and his wife, Nancy Lee,
above the treetops on the right hand side of the road on
U.S. (Route) 1 near Niagara, N.C. at about 9 p.m. as the
two were coming home from church, Lloyd said.  The entire
sighting lasted less than two seconds."
       "The light was much bigger than a meteor, Lloyd said,
and brighter than the moon.  When Lloyd and his wife first
noticed the UFO, they saw it out of the corner of their
eyes, Lloyd said, and it appeared as if there were two or
three lights. When they got a better look, then it was
just one."
       "When the light headed north and disappeared, Lloyd
said the sighting left him feeling excited and a little
out of sorts."
       "'It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up,'
he said."
       "Lloyd joked about whether people would think he was
odd for claiming to have seen a UFO."
       "'Half the people who know me think I'm credible, and
the other half know I'm not,' he said, 'My wife is one of
the most credible people in the world.'"
       Prominent American ufologist George Fawcett of
Lincolnton, N.C. (population 9,965) is looking into the
case.  "Fawcett has investigated over 3,000 UFO sightings
in 80 different countries over 60 years."
       "Sightings usually happen near military bases or
nuclear power plants, Fawcett said."
       "Lloyd has no idea what he saw, but be believes it
wasn't a meteor or an airplane."
       "'This, to me, has no explanation,' he said, 'Nothing
I know of in the sky can act like that.'"  (See the North
Carolina newspaper The Pilot for May 4, 2003, "Couple
reports seeing UFO Wednesday night."  Many thanks to John
Hayes for sending along this newspaper article.)


DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED
NEAR SAN DIEGO

       On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, 2:20 p.m., eyewitness E.G.
was driving near the Sycuan Casino in El Cajon, California
(population 94,869), on Interstate Highway I-8 about 11
miles (17 kilometers) east of San Diego, when she noticed
a strange silvery glimmer in the eastern sky.
       E.G. reported, "It looked silver-gray in color and
was as big as an airliner.  It was a long oval shape.  It
caught my eye as if the sun had hit a mirror.  Then I
watched, as I thought it might crash.  But it just floated
straight behind the cloud.  I pulled the car over to wait,
but it never showed up again."
       E.G. described the object as "a cylindrical UFO with
no wings" and "about the size of a Southwest Airlines
jetliner."  (Email Form Report)


COUPLE AT HOME SIGHT A
UFO IN MEDINA, OHIO

       On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 10 p.m., Jason Davis
was at his home in Medina, Ohio (population 25,139), a
small town on Routes 3 and 18 approximately 28 miles (45
kilometers) south of Cleveland, when "my wife yelled
downstairs to me to look out the window toward the back of
the house."
       "It was a generally clear night with the moon almost
full and also in the southern sky but almost overhead," he
recalled, "There was a light in the sky that seemed to not
blink or move or resemble a plane at all from that
distance, which was approximately 10 to 20 miles (16 to 32
kilometers) away.  The light seemed to be coming towards
us at about the same speed as a low-flying jet aircraft
would."
       "I looked at it through binoculars and was surprised
at what I saw, so I grabbed the digital camera and tried
to get a couple of good pictures.  I'm not a pro.  I just
fired off a couple photos without using the flash or
trying to turn on the digital zoom."
       "I must admit that the lights had a more defined
shape when viewed through the binoculars than the photo,
but it is interesting looking.  The object never seemed to
change speed or direction, and it was in view for about
two minutes.  It left no trail, but a jet that went by a
few minutes later left a very obvious trail in the intense
moonlight."  (Email Form Report)


MYSTERIOUS GLOWING LIGHT
SEEN OVER A LONDON PARK

       On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 12:15 a.m., Gene Perry
and his girl friend were strolling through Manor Park in
London, the UK's capital, when they spotted a "white light
turning reddish as it dimmed over a five-second period."
       It was "as bright a light as a first-magnitude star,"
Gene reported, "and was moving from nearly directly above
us, slightly north, to the south.  I said to my partner,
'Look, it's a satellite.'"
       "She looked up and saw it, too, and said, 'I'm
getting my glasses.'"
       "I watched it for another ten seconds before it
turned dimmer and disappeared.  Viewing time in total was
10 to 25 seconds."
       "I grew up on American air force bases all around the
world and have seen all kinds of aircraft in all kinds of
weather and at all angles.  This object was brighter than
all of the satellites I've ever seen.  Weather was clear
with no moon.  If you held your hand at arm's length, the
distance (the UFO) traveled was about two inches.  It also
had a slight curve in its path."  (Email Form Report)


THE SPAWN OF CTHULU?

       "A new species of jellyfish with a yard-wide (meter-
wide) fleshy red bell and a cluster of wrinkled thick arms
has been found by scientists nearly a mile (1,200 meters)
beneath the cold, dark waters of the Pacific Ocean."
        "Marine biologists at Monterey Bay Aquarium Research
Institute," near San Francisco, California "discovered 23
of what they call Big Reds in Monterey Bay and the Sea of
Cortez" in Mexico "and off Hawaii, Japan and the Farallon
Islands near San Francisco, according to the latest online
edition of the journal Marine Biology."
       "Biologists have used a remote-controlled submarine
to get video images of the big jellyfish swimming and have
collected tissue samples of the bell and the thick arms of
one specimen.  From the samples, scientists have concluded
that Big Red is a unique species."  (See the Duluth, Minn.
News-Tribune for May 8, 2003, "Giant jellyfish found in
Pacific," page 2A.)
(Editor's Comment: First it was ancient ruins in
Antarctica.  Then it was giant red jellyfish.  What's
next!?  The "terrible three-lobed eye" growing on the
floor of the Aegean?  Stay tuned.)


  From the UFO Files...

1903: ANIMAL MUTILATION CASE
            IN STAFFORDSHIRE, UK

       We tend to think of animal mutilations as a fairly
recent phenomenon.  Yet there was a strange series of
mutilations one hundred years ago, afflicting the farms
around Wyrley, Staffordshire, UK.
       "The first of a series of outrages occurred upon the
night of Feb. 2, 1903.  A valuable horse was ripped."
       "Then, at intervals, up to August 27th, there were
mutilations of horses, cows and sheep."
       "Sixteen animals were slashed in a peculiar manner
wherein the shallow wound did not penetrate the gut but
let the animal bleed to death."
       During the summer, anonymous letters appeared in the
local newspapers, accusing one George Edalji of the
crimes.  He was the son of the Rev. Shapurji Edalji, a
Hindu who had converted to Christianity, married an
Englishwoman and moved to Wyrley to become a Church of
England pastor.  Between 1892 and 1895, George attended
Rugeley School and, in 1903, was studying to become a
lawyer.
       During 1895, someone had stolen a large key from the
Walsall Grammar School and slipped it under the vicarage
door.  Young Edalji was accused of burglary by Capt.
George A. Anson of the Staffordshire Constabulary, who
"openly suggested he be given a stiff prison sentence once
he was caught."  But George Edalji was never charged in
this theft.
       "At 6:20 a.m." on August 18, 1903, "a pony was found
lying in a pool of blood.  After inspecting the pony,
which had had its stomach slit open, Inspector Campbell
proceeded to arrest George Edalji.  By 8 a.m. the police
arrived at the vicarage and took away several blood-
stained razors, a damp coat and trousers covered with
horse hair and stained with blood, and a pair of damp
muddy boots belonging to George."
       Unfortunately, the evidence against George Edalji was
compromised from the beginning.  "The razor stains proved
only to be rust...Inspector Campbell had placed the
clothes in the same box with some of the pony's hide...the
scene of the crime had been trampled by local colliery
workers and sightseers" and "the police insisted the
slashing took place around 8 to 8:30 p.m. the previous
evening despite the veterinary surgeon's testimony that it
had happened about 2:30 a.m."
       It became clear that police had the wrong man when
yet another horse was mutilated in Wyrley on August 27,
1903, while Edalji was in jail.
       "When asked to explain Edalji's guilt after another
attack took place while he was in custody, the police said
it was the work of his gang, and showed no further
interest."
       Why the rush to judgement?  Well, the Staffordshire
Constabulary had received an anonymous letter from the
culprit, which stated, "There will be merry times at
Wyrley in November when they start on little girls, for
they will do twenty wenches like the horses before next
March."  The letter was signed Greatorex.
       In November 1903, Edalji was convicted and sentenced
to seven years in prison at the Stafford Assizes.
However, "in 1906, for reasons unknown, George Edalji was
released after serving only three years of his sentence.
He was to remain under police supervision as a discharged
convict, but the circumstances were puzzling.  Why had he
been released prematurely?  Had he been pardoned?  Had the
petition signed by ten thousand people, including hundreds
of lawyers protesting at the weakness of the evidence
against him, anything to do with it?  It was a mystery
worthy of Sherlock Holmes."
       The case soon drew the attention of Holmes' creator,
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
"From their first meeting, Doyle knew Edalji was innocent.
In the foyer of the Grand Hotel, Charing Cross (in London-
-J.T.) Doyle diagnosed from the manner Edalji read a
newspaper that he had a severe case of astigmatic myopia."
       In short, Edalji was so nearsighted that he could not
have found his way to the barn in the dark, let alone
slashed the pony and evaded the police patrols.
       Doyle's expose, "The Case of Mr. George Edalji"
appeared in the Daily Telegraph of London on January 11,
1907.  Showing himself to be the equal of his fictional
creation, Sherlock Holmes, "Doyle deduced the slasher was
familiar with George Edalji and his family, had been a
resident of Wyrley from 1892 to 1895, probably had
attended Walsall School where the stolen key came from,
knew a student there by the name of Greatorex.  Also it
appeared that the slasher was familiar with animals, all
too handy with a knife and foul-mouthed.  An inspection of
the school rolls at Walsall soon revealed the identity of
the slasher."
       "Royden Sharp had been expelled from Walsall and had
been apprenticed to a butcher before joining the merchant
marine in 1895.  Prior to his return in 1903, he had
served aboard a cattle boat for ten months and had taken
with him a large horse lancet, which has but one cutting
edge which would not penetrate deeply into an animal."
       In response to the public outcry, the British
government set up the three-man Gladstone Commission to
re-examine the case.  "Instead of concerning itself with
the innocence of Edalji and the possible guilt of Sharp,
the Gladstone Commission spent most of its energies
shielding Capt. Anson's incompetence."
       No surprise there--one of the commission members, Sir
Alfred de Rutzen, was a second cousin of Capt. Anson.
       "Royden (Sharp) appeared to feel secure from
prosecution in his letters to Doyle, for in one he states,
'I know from a detective of Scotland Yard that if you
write to Gladstone and say you find Edalji is guilty after
all, they will make you a lord next year.  Is it not
better to be a lord than to run the risk of losing kidneys
and liver?'"
       Amazingly, Royden Sharp was not arrested, not even
after writing this death threat.  Had he pulled shit like
that in Mississippi, he would have been down on the
Parchman prison farm, swinging a brush hook and shuffling
along with the rest of the chain gang.
       "The fate of Royden Sharp after 1907 seems as elusive
as that of his predecessor, Jack the Ripper."
       Curiously, after a four-year hiatus, the animal
mutilations began again in Staffordshire.  Charles Fort
wrote, "August 22, 1907--a horse mutilated, near Wyrley.
Five nights later (August 27, 1907), two horses, in
another field, were slashed so that they died.  September
8 (1907)--horse slashed, at Breenwood, Staffordshire.  A
young butcher, named Morgan, was accused, but he was able
to show that he had been in his home at the time."
       "For about a month injuries to horses continued to be
reported" around Staffordshire.  "They had been injured
'by barbed wires' or 'by nails projecting from fences.'"
       They are all long dead now, all of the principal
figures in the drama--George Edalji, Royden Sharp, Capt.
George Anson and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.  Yet, as we saw
last year (2002), in Argentina and Uruguay, the mutilation
phenomenon is still going strong.  (See The Complete Books
of Charles Fort, Dover Publications Inc., New York, N.Y.,
1974, pages 878 to 880.  Also Fortean Times No. 21 for
Spring 1977, "The Edalji Case...Again," pages 8 and 9.)

       Steve Wilson Sr. reminds me that there will be a
lunar eclipse later this week, the first one in the USA in
three years.  Barring inclement weather, the lunar eclipse
can be seen across North America on Thursday evening, May
15, 2003 and, in western Europe and northwestern Africa,
just before dawn on Friday, May 16, 2003.

Here in the USA, readers can watch the eclipse at the
following times...

8:13 p.m. Pacific Time (Los Angeles)
9:13 p.m. Mountain Time (Salt Lake City)
10:13 p.m. Central Time (Chicago)
11:13 p.m. Eastern Time (New York City)

       For 53 minutes, the Moon will be substantially darker
and reddish colored.  This would be a good time to aim
your telescope at Copernicus crater.  There's supposed to
be an underground alien base in the crater's north rim.
If the blast doors are opened during the eclipse, you
might be able to see a tiny lighted area on the slope of
Copernicus' north rim.
       Hey!  Maybe that's where Saddam Hussein and his sons
are hiding out...

       Eclipse or no, we'll be back in seven days with more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet
Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO
Roundup."  See you next week!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK and
UFO Sightings Italia.
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              Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:19:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:25:08 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:52:06 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

<snip>

 >And how do we know that these aliens (assuming they exist) are
 >not planning to invade us....? This statement is based on what
 >knowledge?

Observations of their constant presence by sightings, and their
activities by way of abductions.  And if Nick Balaskas' find of
papers in Ottawa about the Eisenhower administration are valid,
the fact that they chose to negotiate.

One abductee reported, according to Whitley Strieber, that he
was shown people at a picnic on a screen, in the UFO.  He was
asked if he could 'pick out the aliens from the native humans'.
He could not, as everyone looked pretty human.  If that is true,
that points to some sort of eventual integration, rather than an
outright invasion.

It may ultimately end up as if an invasion had taken place, of
course, but it certainly doesn't look like one so far.


Eleanor White







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                           Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry

From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:27:51 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >Subject: 'Frank M'?

 >Hello All,

 >Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
 >M'?

 >Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The
 >researchers are Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.


Frank M. is a person that the IF (Intruders Foundation)
invesitgated, he ia an upstate resident of New York, he was
videotaping a UFO when a few moments later he was abducted from
the same craft he had been recording Bruce Maccabee had analyzed
the tape and have found it to be authentic.....

--

World Of The Strange  http://www.worldofthestrange.com
(We're Back)





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              Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:25:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:30:55 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 07:10:41 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >Where do these percentages come from? I hope they're not simple
 >extrapolations from the rather old "Roper" poll taken a few
 >years back. Polling and statistics can often be utilized to
 >one's advantage, so the provenance of such claims should always
 >be fully disclosed to carry much weight. Unfortunately, "stats"
 >have come to take on a life of their own on the Internet.


I've heard both percentages referenced - say - at least a dozen
times each on both Strange Days Indeed and other shows' UFO
segments over the past three years.  That Roper poll was one of
them, yes.  I didn't write down every source, but I haven't
heard conflicting numbers.

I've been working nights during that 3-year period so I get to
hear more UFO discussions on air than the average member of the
public.

Do you have different numbers?


Eleanor White







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:51:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:35:26 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:33:13 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >The reason why I invested in expensive photo equipment was
 >because I agreed with many people that anecdotal reports are
 >just not enough. I figured if I had photos and video to back up
 >my sighting reports that it would help to make the testimony
 >more credible. But no. After going through all the expense and
 >trouble of recording my sightings the bar is raised once again
 >and I am told that pictures and video don't mean anything
 >because they can be faked.

 >Horse players have a saying... "I can't win for losing." That's
 >the case for anyone who dares to try to prove that they have
 >seen a UFO. But hey, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. It
 >is only in response to the dictates of my own conscience that I
 >participate in any public forums at all.

Again, John, you assume that skeptics would not be pleased by a
White House landing, because we would just "raise the bar,"
citing that we need more evidence. A White House landing would
suffice, for me at least. A landing anywhere with enough
corroborative evidence would suffice. But there hasn't been one.
There's lots of interesting cases, but nothing that proves
without a doubt that aliens have been here. Not even Roswell.
Sure, something clearly happened there, but the actual evidence
is inconclusive at this time. The Army seems to have lied about
something, perhaps, but that doesn't automatically mean it was
aliens. People too often assume that when the government is
caught in a lie -- which is often -- that it must be about
aliens. And we put way, way too much stock in deepthroat-esque
govt. sources. But we're also told that govt. employees make
mistakes just like us, so whose to say they're lying about
anything. How do we know they're just totally uninformed and
never really knew what to say. Because they're professionals?
People hardly think so ... only when we want an explanation from
them do we bequeath such parental roles.

And pictures and video can be faked. Which doesn't mean every
single one of the _is_ faked. What it means in those instances
is that you have something that looks really strange on film,
and by golly, it sure doesn't look like one of ours. But does
that include experimental aircraft? Stuff we haven't seen? How
can you say it's aliens when it could be something natural that
we've never seen yet? That alone should preclude the cry of
'Aliens!' Just because our experts can't explain what they see
isn't really a good reason to label something an alien ship. We
had enough people, even a few of our experts, believe the
Guardian footage was indeed proof of a UFO landing. It suckered
in a whole bunch of people, in fact, and it turned out to be a
hoax.

So what am I trying to say? That I don't believe any UFO videos
of photos? Of course not. Some of them look really interesting.
Those Billy Meier pictures looked pretty neat, and people have
believed in those for years. If video is all we've got, then
it's hard to draw conclusions based on something that
potentially could have been faked. If that's _all_ there is in
one particular case, then yes, I'm going to still be skeptical.
I guess I'll just have to live with myself, somehow!

This past week I lauded Stan Romanek's case because it _does_
have lots of evidence. That doesn't mean I believe he was
abducted by aliens. But at least he's tried to present as much
evidence as possible. At least he's not trying to sell something
or convince other people. He's just a guy who's had horrible
things done to him, he wants to understand what the hell is
going on, and he's respectful of other people's opinions and
skepticism.

I'm not trying to attack you, John, but I think you've got the
perception that most skeptics will never be happy. Well, I'm
here, I'm interested. That should be enough for now. If I really
didn't care, believe me, I wouldn't bother. I have a job to go
to, books to write. I'm here because I'm genuinely curious.


Ian Rogers







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:55:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:36:53 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:02:15 -0700
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >What I see here is a classic case of late-night-talkshowitis.

 >Listeners are supposed to enjoy the tall tales, and of course
 >buy the products advertised (instant youth in a bottle etc.)
 >Its sad really, but some part of the audience actually believes
 >the stories!

 >Amazing.

You can call every government crime nonsense, and find people
and web sites who will say so. Just as government and big
organization crime are real, so are disinfo agents. I'm not
speculating, I know this personally.

Saying those crime examples are nonsense is your choice. But
whether you want it to be true or not, government and big
organization crimes continue, and continue in so-called
democratic countries.

I have had my home entered, and small items stolen, sabotaged,
sometimes returned, for the past 23 years. Ditto my car, and my
workplace. No individual or organization could accomplish that
without active cover by agencies whose job it is to protect us.
MKULTRA and COINTELPRO were real projects which included just
that type of activity, and which have never had the activity
stopped, just the names discontinued.

Plenty of others have been through much worse. I do hope neither
you nor your family or friends will ever have to go through such
atrocities.

Government and big organization crimes are a whole lot more than
titillating late-night conversation. If you want to debate this
point further, please use my personal email address.


Eleanor White








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                 Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Cuoghi

From: Diego Cuoghi <diegocuoghi@spamcop.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:56:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:40:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Cuoghi


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:11:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394

 >>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:00:26 +0000
 >>Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394


 >>ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

 >>UFOs In Ancient Paintings?

 >>Falling rapidly on the heels of the periodical Focus, the
 >>monthly scientific investigative report Newton also devotes
 >>space in its May issue to a discussion of UFOs, with regards to
 >>identifying images interpretable as UFOs in works of art from
 >>previous centuries.

 >>The brief article which is amply illustrated sheds light on the
 >>opposing views of those who steadfastly maintain that these
 >>concern extraterrestrial objects and, conversely, those who are
 >>of the opposite opinion (particularly the Italian scholar Diego
 >>Cuoghi, who has dedicated a Website to the debate:
 >>http://www.sprezzatura.it/Art/Arte_UFO.htm).

 >This is a subject that I am extremely interested in.
 >Unfortunately the above link failed. Do you have a correct link?


The correct link is:

http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO.htm

and this is the link for two parts in English

http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_eng.htm

Diego Cuoghi

--

http://www.diegocuoghi.com







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Bright

From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:57:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:41:44 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Bright


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:40:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:07:44 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>What's your point with this IFO test like if you were a teacher
 >>in a classroom? To prove that someone can be fooled by a simple
 >>mylar balloon? In our research we have seen these examples a
 >>thousand times for many years. So this is like going back to
 >>kindergarden again and we can not afford such a waste of time.

 >Santiago, if you don't have the time to do this kind of study,
 >locate the delete button on your keyboard.

 >As for this "we" you refer to (someone else on this list keeps
 >speaking for others and you too - ah, yes, safety in numbers),
 >I've received a lot of very positive and encouraging feedback
 >from people on the list via the list and via private E-mail not
 >to mention over 265 hits on the first Pop Quiz page. Someone
 >seems to have the time and interest.

<snip>

Hi Amy, Santiago, List members,

Santiago: Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression
that this was an open list, intended for anyone with an interest
in researching and understanding the UFO phenomenon. I do not
believe anyone was suggesting that _you_ should drop all of your
current research in favour of "going back to kindergarten". To
be honest, that seemed to be a slightly disingenuous comment.
Personally, I think that Amy's images are of benefit to _all_
UFO researchers, be they experienced in the field or otherwise.
However, the point is that even should you personally not find
the examples of IFOs to be a useful resource, this does not hold
true for the vast majority of less experienced UFO researchers,
or the general public alike. Indeed, I would suggest that rather
than doing the subject harm in the popular arena, such attempts
at offering a simple education for those who do seek it does, in
fact, promote the serious study of UFO in a far more positive
light than the sensationalised promotion of video of an
_unknown_ as a bona fide extraterrestrial contact. How else
would someone with little or no experience in image or video
analysis be able to tell the wheat from the chaff, if not for
examining images in which the "object"  _is_ identified?

I also agree with Amy in respect to definition. UFO was a term
originally coined by the US Airforce, meaning "unidentified
flying object". If a "UFO" is then subsequently identified as
anything from a blimp to a fleet of Zeta star cruisers, it would
immediately cease to be a UFO. However, the ruling out of any
given number of possibilities does not mean the ruling out of
_all other possibilities except that of an ET spacecraft_ . I am
not for one moment suggesting that you do not acknowledge this
to be true, however I do think that in "UFOlogy", like in all
other walks of life, semantics are often used, twisted and
distorted in order to support a bias, one way or the other. As
Amy rightly attests, it is vitally important in any form of
scientific inquiry to be specific in your definitions. This
ensures that everyone knows _exactly_ what is meant, and are
then able to express theory and hypothesis without ambiguity.

Personally, I have never seen evidence of sufficient standard to
lead me to conclude that any given UFO sighting is, beyond
doubt, extraterrestrial in origin. The usual suspects can
sometimes be ruled out (balloons, lanterns, aircraft
misidentification, and so forth), which still leaves a UFO. On
to the next level of enquiry: earth lights? geo-electromagnetic
discharge? and so it goes on. However, even if  _every_
  possibility imaginable apart from ET contact is dismissed, due
to not being able to fulfil the profile of the sighting, _and_
assuming that this sighting is not a hoax, this _still_ does not
mean that the observed phenomenon was ET in origin until there
is _proof_ of such.

Therefore, as I see it, _all_ UFOs are "genuine", until they're
identified; that is to say, genuine "unknowns", and not genuine
evidence of ET visitation. Incidentally, I prefer the term "UAP"
(Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon). Can a plasma sphere be
classified as an "object"? Once again, it all depends upon
definition.

Amy, thanks. I for one find your images very useful and am
grateful for your work.

Best to all,

Dan

--
Dan Bright
dan@theunexplained.info
www.theunexplained.info







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:12:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:43:36 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:47:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >Do you believe everything written on these websites? Is there
 >anything you don't believe?


When I hear from people who were first-hand involved in
something testify on the radio, for example, those who have
benefitted from a cancer cure, I begin to believe. When I hear
something repeated on different shows, I believe a little more.

When the speaker has a good reputation, I believe more.

When _references_ which can be verified are given to back up
something on the radio, I believe more.

When something seems to be common sense, such as a huge,
complex, and ancient universe having intelligence on other
planets, or that governments and corporations commit serious
crimes and cover them up, I believe still more.

When something keeps on happening and keeps getting reported,
decade after decade, such as UFO abductions, in spite of all the
ridicule, I believe still more.

When something very similar to a strange situation reported by
others happens to me, particularly over a period of time and
repeatedly, I believe a great deal more.

Please don't confuse "believe" with "guaranteeing total
accuracy". That's not what belief is. My beliefs get adjusted
every time better evidence comes along. I think believing gets
undeserved bad press. I never guarantee total accuracy with
anything I haven't participated in.

I am not ashamed to believe things.


Eleanor White







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                 Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Cuoghi

From: Diego Cuoghi <diegocuoghi@spamcop.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:18:37 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:46:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Cuoghi


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:11:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394

 >>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:00:26 +0000
 >>Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394


 >>http://www.sprezzatura.it/Art/Arte_UFO.htm).

 >This is a subject that I am extremely interested in.
 >Unfortunately the above link failed. Do you have a correct link?


I just made a new folder in my web site, and now also that link works.

Diego Cuoghi
--

http://www.diegocuoghi.com







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:21:15 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:49:46 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:16:34 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
 >>conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
 >>phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

 >>I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >>can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >>far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >>a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >>people think, in this field.

 >I couldn't agree with you more, Ian.

 >Well said! Hit the nail on the head. The best we can conclude
 >about something unknown is that the data is inconclusive.

 >Thank you!

I don't know about that premise. If someone is holding the
winning hand in a poker game and I don't call them, how then
would I ever know if they had the winning hand - if they don't
declare it?

The solution then, is inconclusive for me, and always will be,
but not the winner of the game. If you transpose the winner of
this game in this case is some intelligence in an object not of
this Earth, and this intelligence doesn,t want to declare
itself, how the heck are you ever going to prove it?

Proving something is inconclusive is not an answer, it's just
putting the question on hold.

What you seem to be suggesting is that time will eventually
prove that each UFO is really an IFO of prosaic means. That's
just Klass's theory being recycled isn't it?

All of the unsolved UFO sightings are due to the lack of
sufficient information.

Who determines what is sufficient information? Where's the
cut-off point?


Don Ledger






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 13

                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:44:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:53:42 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:39:13 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:48:04 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >Some people seem to feel threatened when their UFO images and
 >claims are put under scrutiny expecting, instead, their words
 >and images to be accepted without question. These are also the
 >individuals who complain the most about those conducting more
 >scientific research. Perhaps it's because they have the most to
 >lose.

 >Thank you, Eric!

You know I hear and see this statement a great deal. But I've
never actually seen evidence of it. Some people shoot this stuff
and then ask what it is and are satisfied when someone proves
its prosaic in nature.

Amy, if you are going to start using generalizations as
arguments, you are going to weaken your argument. Frankly I'm
surprised you would begin using it if you are certain of your
own theories. Attacking others in a general form doesn't prove
anything other than perhaps you feel you are on shaky ground
yourself. Prove or disprove, never mind the tongue in cheek
cliches.

What has anyone to lose, BTW? That last statement is rhetoric,
not factual.

I've never shot anything on film or video by the way. I'm not
protecting my turf. I'm just not prepared to throw the baby out
with the bathwater.

I wonder if you wouldn't mind mapping out a frame work or
reference guide as to how to initially eliminate photographic
evidence of an aerial UO. Would you also include the humanistic
traits to the recording of the incident as to important or
unimportant.


Don







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   May > May 13

                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:29:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:59:10 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:32:04 -0400
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:20:24 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >Of course, you're fine with the samples being "agate-like", but
 >it is clear you're not fine with the samples being agate
 >(chalcedony), because (as I have recently learned) you have long
 >been committed to making the ludicrous "Alien Autopsy" affair
 >into a reality, for personal reasons.

Ray,

Yes, you're correct; I don't have a problem with the material
being agate-like. For the rest of this post, I'll refer to the
material as A-LM (agate-like material).

I also champion the alien autopsy as being a real event, but
don't understand the "for personal reasons"; perhaps you could
elaborate.

 >Because you cannot personally understand how over vast ages
 >(very possibly even in the millions of years) chalcedony coated
 >some areas of the rocks is no reason to believe the chalcedony
 >if the result of a spaceship crash.

But I do understand how chalcedony can form. I've listened to
you and have done my own research. There's only one problem: the
A-LM covering this area of the desert wasn't deposited in the
normal fashion portrayed by you or by the references I
researched.

 >>I wouldn't know what I was looking at.

 >That doesn't excuse your not looking, to get a clearer Idea of
 >whether it was really glass-like or only superficially so,
 >before making a rather sensational report to this list and God
 >knows where else.

I knew the A-LM was unsusal. I also knew my understanding of the
material was incomplete so I brought the matter to the list with
the intention of involving more folks and generating interest in
the site. I want others to visit the area and see how facinating
it actually is. I also wanted folks like you to contribute their
knowledge and maybe start a working group to study the site.

 >You know that the material is very unusual simply because you,
 >personally, have never seen it "scattered across the desert?!!
 >Ridiculous in the extreme! A little rationality would help in
 >this, Ed!

As I've told you, it's the way the A-LM is scattered or splashed
across the desert and on the rocks that makes it unusual.

 >You also know perfectly well that I told you on the phone that I
 >have done much roaming (during the six years I lived in Phoenix,
 >Arizona) around the Arizona desert (and even in New Mexico)
 >looking for meteorites, on UFO related trips, and just pleasure
 >trips, and that I have seen such deposits on quite a few
 >occasions at diverse places.

I believe that you've seen something similar to this, but not
exactly like this.

 >Also, you are using the propaganda technique of exaggeration to
 >try and make your case. You know that in fact it was not, to use
 >your words, "scattered across the desert"! The truth actually is
 >that you found it on certain places on certain rocks. Period.

Why do you insist in denying my reality and experience? So I'll
say this again. The A-LM at this site is scattered across an
area at least three football fields in size. In some areas it's
much thicker than others and on some rocks it's just a thin
coating. It's on large rocks the size of a car and on small
rocks the size of a loaf of bread and some the size of apples.
It's more concentrated around the first impact site and the
eventual crash (landing) site.

 >I can prove that by a photo you sent me which shows an area (at
 >the widest view) of maybe forty to fifty feet across, and on
 >only three locations do you have rocks circled with the caption,
 >"areas with glass-like material".

That photo accounts for about five percent of the total site.
The areas I circled were where I found concentrations of
material, not the only areas. Again, the photos were not meant
to prove anything but to familiarize you with the general nature
of the site.

 >Well the material on the rocks which you sent me is
 >unquestionably chalcedony, not just "agate-like", but if you are
 >going to claim it to have been formed there by a spaceship
 >crash, you'd better be prepared to explain; (1) how it looks
 >like chalcedony, has the gross morphology of chalcedony
 >deposits, has the hardness of chalcedony, produces the streak of
 >chalcedony on a test surface, and has the kind of
 >microcrystalline growth patterns that characterize chalcedony,
 >and; (2) how it is that this imagined UFO-related plasma didn't
 >deposit the same substance on the soil all around the area.
 >After all, soil is primarily silica (especially so in deserts,
 >where there is little organic debris), and it, like the rocks,
 >should have retained a coating of the "polymer" you propose.
 >Common, Ed, tell us why it doesn't coat the ground?

Good question. If the A-LM were deposited from a disabled craft,
then it should be found on individual sand pebbles and in the
dirt just as you say. I haven't looked but I will when I return
to the site, hopefully with you and other interested listers,
this summer. The wind and rain over the last fifty-five years
have probably dispersed the individual sand particles, but there
should still be evidence of their existance if we screen the
sand around heavy concentrations of the A-LM.

If we did find areas of sand that are covered with the A-LM,
what would those finding prove to you?

 >So, do you want to get rational and reasonable about this and
 >admit the material is nothing but a natural chalcedony, and
 >therefore 'save face' a bit (by demonstrating that you're not a
 >die-hard fanatic), or would you prefer I have an electron
 >microprobe or other analytical test done on it, get a print-out
 >showing that it is primarily silica dioxide, and let the facts
 >make you look like an extremely fantasy-prone person?
 >As I told you on the phone, I can do that if you insist.

Yes, I'm asking that you do a microprobe, as you said you would.
We'll need all the information we can get. I'm willing to admit
that the A-LM will be "primarily silica dioxide". But I'd like
to know what other chemicals and elements are present.

 >Good, you admit that, but had you looked at the material with a
 >loupe -- thanks for correcting my spelling on that, Jim :) -- I
 >think you might have used a more accurate term.

Sure, I could have done many things differently.

 >What do you mean by "exact match"?! You surely must know that
 >chalcedony can grow (I refer to crystal growth) on surfaces of
 >any shape, if that shape is in silica carrying water long
 >enough. It doesn't even matter if that surface is
 >gravitationally up, down, or anywhere in-between, provided
 >silica-bearing water is in contact with it long enough. You know
 >very well that I said nothing about an "exact match", because no
 >two specimens of chalcedony will ever be exactly alike. No areas
 >of chalcedony on the two pieces of rock you sent me are anywhere
 >nearly exact in form.

 >My wife, who collects chalcedony in the form of polished slices
 >of agate (chalcedony), and has a whole file with the drawers
 >full of beautiful slices, suggests that, rather than sending you
 >one of her more expensive sliced and polished examples, I wait
 >until next weekend's mineral show and try to find an inexpensive
 >example to send you. If not, I'll get a sample from my friend,
 >Jim (a true chalcedony freak), and send you one.

Don't bother; what I wanted was a rhyolite rock covered with
agate. In other words I wanted a sample similar to the one I
sent you. You seemed to think you could produce one so I took
you up on your offer. I don't need a sample of agate. I have my
own.

 >But as I said before, Ed, the kind of wild speculating you are
 >doing about a mercury-based engine and an undefined vortex
 >picking up atmospheric debris, etc, is not theorizing. It is not
 >even valid hypothesis formation, because it is not based on
 >actual evidence. Do you not even understand the basics of the
 >scientific process?

Until we are able to study the actual propulsion systems of UFO,
one theory is as good as another. I base my ideas on the work of
Ivan Sanderson, and my understanding of vehemas, the flying
crafts used by the ancients of India. The basic concept is that
heated mercury in a circular container creates an
electromagnetic vortex and the craft rides in the middle, as in
the eye of a storm. I believe this vortex is responsible for
simple crop circles, and falls of angel hair. That's why I
theorized about polymer (spider webs, caterpillar silk etc.),
but now that I think about it, silica dioxide would work just as
well. The disabled craft picked up sand and converted it along
with atmospheric moisture and other chemicals and debris to form
the A-LM which it dispersed when it crash-landed.

 >Can you really expect any intelligent person to want to listen
 >to that kind of pseudoscientific crap? I hoped, since it was "my
 >dime", as you say, that it would be more constructive to explain
 >to you the process of chalcedony formation and more about its
 >characteristics, plus to correct the flawed nature of your
 >reasoning. It looks, however, that my time and phone expense was
 >wasted.

Not at all. I learned alot.

 >Seem to be?!!! It would be more intellectually honest just to
 >admit that you were absolutely incorrect. By the way, have you
 >ever known a plastic that had a hardness of 7 on Mohs' scale,
 >and crystalline growth? :)

Let's wait until you get the results of the probe. There may
still be a few surprises.

 >I suspect the reason you do not understand is that you look at
 >the area only as it is today and not across the ages,
 >geologically. I don't feel like this list would really be
 >interested in my taking up space to give a you an education in
 >geology and petrogenesis. Grab yourself some basic geology books
 >and books on rocks and minerals at the library, Ed, and open for
 >yourself a whole new world of wonder that is a lot more well
 >established and fact-based than this particular "Alien
 >Abduction" fiasco.

I told you I understood basic geology. I know how the earth is
formed and I've hiked and explored many amazing places. The A-LM
deposition was different than anything I'd ever seen before.

 >Do that, and you will learn the valuable lesson that anything as
 >common as chalcedony should not be mistaken for the 'flotsam or
 >jetsam" of a UFO crash.

I know, it's hard to understand; you'll have to visit the site
to grasp the signifance of what's there.

 >>I've been there, you haven't.

 >I've analyzed the only 'hard evidence' -- 7 on Mohs' scale :o) -
 >- you offer, and found it to be a very common substance. So, now
 >I have better things to do than to travel half way across the
 >continental U.S., rent a four-wheel-drive vehicle, and see one
 >wide-eyed, die-hard believer's Ufological 'Field of Dreams'.
 >Thanks, but no thanks.

It would be a wonderful experience for you; the chance in a
lifetime.

 >I was referring to the fact that you unequivocally describe it
 >as the crash site without a single bit of evidence, except the
 >claim that it matches an anonymous person's claim! If that's not
 >wishful thinking and highly subjective, what is it?

I have the cameraman's drawing and matching it to the site, the
area I circled is the crash site. Also the concentration of A-LM
is very heavy there.

 >By the way, have you ever considered the possibility that
 >someone came across this place, decided that the chalcedony on
 >some of the rocks might easily be mistaken for glass by
 >believers, adding a few ambiguities to the route, to make it
 >seem like he is describing the route as it might have been over
 >half a century ago, and led you down the 'primrose path'.

I don't see the point to all that. What would this person gain?

 >>...and the cameraman...said a craft crashed somewhere in this area.

 >You believe the, IMO, fictional 'camera man'. I suppose you
 >believe in Santa Clause and the tooth fairy, too. The alleged
 >camera man has not really even verified that the specific area
 >you claim as the crash site is where he is alleging a UFO
 >crashed, has he, ED? 'He' will likely never put his finger on a
 >specific area for reasons that, if you wanted to be objective
 >about this, you could easily guess. I suppose it is about time
 >for the pushers of this, IMO, hoax to declare that the alleged
 >camera man has recently 'passed on', too.

 >>>Another photo is labeled "burned cottonwood tree", but nothing
 >>>on the tree's remains give the slightest suggestion to me that
 >>>anything extraordinary happened there.

 >>You'll have to see it for yourself.

 >I saw the photo, and having seen diverse trees in the desert
 >burned and broken by lightening strikes, I don't need or want to
 >see it any closer. Where is your evidence a UFO caused there
 >over a half century ago, Ed?

 >>Let me say this again. I believe my brother and I have
 >>found the cameraman's crash site. There are many reasons
 >>for this belief and finding that the material is chalcedony
 >>doesn't change a thing, except it isn't polymer.

 >Anyone who could have looked at that chalcedony (even without
 >the aid of a loupe) and thought it was a UFO-formed polymer
 >(until I demonstrated otherwise) doesn't need a dose of active
 >imagination, so your beliefs do not carry a lot of weight with
 >me at this point.

 >So you believe it was a UFO crash site. Provide us some hard
 >evidence strongly suggesting that, or allow this to be relegated
 >to the folly file.

Hopefully our discussion will motivate some listers to visit the
site and see for themselves whether it's a crash site
possibility or not.

 >I suspect he was a bit turned off by the UFO crash tale you had
 >told him, and that he didn't want to waste the time of day
 >arguing with a true believer.

After he finished his examination, he asked me why I was
exploring that area and I told him about the AA. I'm sure he was
skeptical; but he listened politely and he didn't seem too put
off by my explanation.

 >And, just as I said, you did not report the more down-to-earth
 >comments of this person at the NM School of Mines to the List. A
 >serious researcher-investigator would have done so, even if
 >adding comments that he didn't take the comments to be accurate.

I've talked to many folks about this and just as many had
opinions about the nature of the material. Am I to report
everything they said, too? I told you, didn't I.

 >Common, Ed! Tell us how you knew he was incorrect! You admitted
 >to me that you hadn't even looked at the stuff with a loupe,
 >hadn't done a hardness test, hadn't even poured an easily
 >available acid solution like household vinegar on it to see if
 >it fizzed like calcite (calcium carbonate) does (in liberating
 >carbon dioxide) when vinegar poured upon it! You had consulted
 >him because you thought he might be an expert. Since you
 >admitted you didn't test for calcite, why didn't you believe
 >him? That looks very much like wishful thinking before science,
 >again!

If I had it to do again, that's exactly what I'd do. I have seen
many examples of calcite and the A-LM didn't resemble the
samples I'd seen.

 >Maybe you should say, "List, my slip-up! My apology!", instead
 >of being sarcastic. It would be more to your credit, Ed.

I have no apology to the List. The List should be thanking me
for bringing this to them.

Anyone can visit the site and have an eye-opening experience.


 >>I don't think so. The information you've provided
 >>has been an excellent contribution. Everyone has part of the truth.

 >Maybe in the minds of what I call "metaphizzlers", "true
 >believers", and "post modernists", but what if this whole UFO
 >crash episode is pure fiction? Would the perpetrators have even
 >a smidgen of the truth?

Yes, everyone has a part of the truth, even post modernists.

 >>I want folks involved. Real adventure.

 >Yes, real adventure if you're 'fishing around' around for some
 >joker to declare that the chalcedony is hard evidence of a UFO
 >crash. Indeed!

I'm fishing for participants and I think you've nibbled. I just
have to set the hook. I know you'll put up a good fight, and
you're getting closer to the net with every word.

 >Once again, I ask: How many rocks did you check for chalcedony
 >beneath the soil line?

Ten or so.

 >How many of them did you carefully wash
 >off before deciding if any chalcedony was below the soil line?

I didn't wash any off; there was no need to do so. The sand
brushes off without a problem.

 >You have deliberately skirted those questions in order to push
 >your position.
 >And, by the way, would you like to describe for us how a
 >crashing UFO forms growth phase atop growth phase of chalcedony
 >anywhere on rocks or anything else? :) -- and, please, why did
 >it not, likewise, form atop the soil?

A growth phase appearance could happen in split seconds or over
thousands/millions of years. I believe this event took place in
a matter of seconds. The A-LM probably was on top of the soil at
one time but it's not noticeable now, but as I said, I didn't
look closely at the topsoil.

 >>Now here's the real problem. There is zero way that this
 >>material could have been water deposited on this site and on
 >>the individual rocks on the site-some are three feet apart.

 >That is a deliberate distortion of fact, and you are being
 >dishonest in even saying that. You know quite well that it is
 >not "deposited on this site", but only upon certain areas of
 >certain rocks there.

Maybe somewhere during this discussion you'll get this clear:
The A-LM is scattered or splashed across the desert in a way
that would make one suspect that the material was thrown down
from above or better - spun down from above

 >Perhaps you secretly hope prevent me from revealing the truth
 >about how it formed by saying:

 >>Please don't write a lengthy discourse.

No I didn't want you to waste your time, but secretly knew
that you'd go ahead anyway.

 >O.K., I'll grant your wish and write a short one that will
 >hopefully fill your geologic and petrologic vacuum:

 >You are not seeing these rocks in the context in which the
 >chalcedony naturally formed upon them over the ages when the
 >rocks were water-saturated and they were under ground. These
 >rocks were tectonically pushed up from underneath the surface
 >during the time those mountains in the area were pushed up. It
 >was once a relatively flat land. When the rocks were
 >underground, subsurface waters flowed through every crack made
 >in them during earlier stages of tectonic pressure. It flowed
 >for hundreds of thousands to millions of years (depending on the
 >area), slowly allowing growth phase upon growth phase (through
 >dry and wet periods) of chalcedony to form from molecular silica
 >dioxide being carried in the water.

 >After the chalcedony-bearing substrate was tectonically pushed
 >to the surface, it further broke apart along tectonically
 >created (and even chalcedony-bearing) fissures, aided over long
 >period by rains, flooding, freezing, extreme of cold and heat,
 >etc.

 >What you are finding are larger and smaller examples of the rock
 >that has in that way broken up.

 >The reason we see chalcedony formed on these particular rocks
 >(instead of calcite) is because this kind of pyroclastic rock is
 >very high in silica and quite low in calcium (unlike rocks
 >formed of marine sediments, like those around Carlsbad Caverns
 >in New Mexico).

 >But you will now ask, "Why so much in this area and not in
 >adjacent areas?"

 >Such situations occur under the condition wherein the now
 >surface-exposed rocks were in one of the underground areas
 >through which subsurface waters flowed more abundantly than in
 >the adjacent areas of possibly more solid rock and/or more
 >elevated rock (just we find underground, today). So, you will
 >find chalcedony on some surfaces of rock that, when underground,
 >had greater exposure to waters than did some other adjacent
 >areas. Also, if the adjacent rocks happen not to be this type
 >of pyroclastic rock, but are of the sedimentary type mentioned
 >earlier, what will accumulate in their cracks is calcite and not
 >chalcedony. Rainwater tends to dissolve the calcite in fissures
 >of surface rocks (especially in these days of increased acid
 >rain), so you would likely see very little, if any, sub-vitreous
 >calcitic growths remaining on them. Plain, simple, Petrology
 >101. :)

 >>It would be a waste of your time...

 >Knowing your attitude and unwillingness to look at the facts and
 >learn, I probably am wasting my time!

Just as I said, it was a waste of your time. The deposits of A-
LM were not formed in that fashion or in the manner you've just
described. There's nothing wrong with your description. In fact
it's quite well done, but it doesn't apply to this site. What
more can I say: "because one visit to the site would destroy
your efforts".

 >No visit to the site could ever show me how
 >chalcedony would be formed by the crash of a UFO,
 >real or fictional!

Yes it would!

 >>Just show me an example of an area three football fields covered
 >>with agate.

 >Another propagandistic exaggeration and distortion of fact. Ed
 >knows quite well that the area is not covered in agate. Again,
 >it is found only on specific areas of certain rocks, as his
 >notes on the photos he sent me conclusively prove.

It's found across the entire area of the site. The photos prove
nothing and were not meant to prove anything.

 >>A better exercise would be to ask how a craft(UFO)
 >>could make a deposit of chalcedony of this magnitude.

 >The chalcedony was not formed by the crash of a UFO, Ed. I've
 >just explained (short version) how it formed.

You explained how you think it was formed, armchair version.

 >Toss your fantasy UFOillogical 'all day sucker' in the circular
 >file (AKA, trash can).
 >You are surely not going to make 'suckers' out of the thinkers
 >on this List.

EBK and Listers know that I wouldn't try to sucker them. I'm not
writing a book or selling anything and can't profit from this in
any way. It has been very expensive and time consuming but it's
a labor of love and so far, quite a heart warming adventure.


Ed







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   May > May 13

               Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:23:49 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:51:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394 - Hutchinson


 >From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:11:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 394


 >>http://www.sprezzatura.it/Art/Arte_UFO.htm).

 >This is a subject that I am extremely interested in.
 >Unfortunately the above link failed. Do you have a correct link?


Edoardo forgot an "e"
http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO.htm

Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson







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   May > May 13

             Re: Request For Cost Estimate For A NASA-Expose Ad

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:31:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:16:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Request For Cost Estimate For A NASA-Expose Ad


To: drumburg@gazette.net

TO:   Classified Ads Manager
       Comprint Military Publications
       1200 Quince Orchard Blvd.
       Gaithersburg, MD 20878

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
       3518 Martha Custis Drive
       Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: May 13, 2003

Ms. Rumburg:

Please tell me the cost for placing the following ANNOUNCEMENT
advertisement in a forthcoming edition of the "Pentagram" weekly
newspaper, as published by the Fort Myer, Va., Military
Community:

DOLLARS-FOR-DISCLOSURE: BLOW THE WHISTLE ON NASA

Help me set up a Whistleblower Reward Fund to compel full NASA
accountability as to what certain officials know (and when they
knew it) about the events leading up to Columbia's crash. Call
Larry W. Bryant at 703-931-3341 (e-mail: overtci@cavtel.net).






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   May > May 13

                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:47:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:00:12 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:43:22 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:10:47 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>If I don't know what it is, Santiago, it is unidentified... for
 >>>>the moment. I continue to analyze until I find the truth. If
 >>>>something is unknown, I never rule out any possible explanation
 >>>>including the possibility it was a bird, balloon, airplane,
 >>>>blimp, etc.

 >>>In my work once I performed these steps and confirmed it is an
 >>>authentic UFO sighting I show the footage to other friend
 >>>collagues asking their opinions to establish a general criteria.
 >>>Now returning to my question : Have you found a real UFO video
 >>>in your reseach ?

 >>I have found _potential_ UFO footage but it remains thus pending
 >>further study.

 >>>I will wait your straight answer to this because I'm very
 >>>interested to know how you apply your criteria in these studies.
 >>>But please let's talk straight and clear avoiding the rhetoric.

 >>I _am_ talking straight, Santiago. I'm just not saying what you
 >>want me to say. Take it or leave it.

 >If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
 >conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
 >phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

 >I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >people think, in this field.

Ian,

Whether some, many, or most self-styled "ufologists" display the
sort of credulous attitude you describe here is subject to
debate. But your logic that inconclusive = alien is not a
commonly held position by any rational students of UFOs in my
circles. Plus, your definiton of "inconclusive" leaves something
to be desired.

Anyway, I think that I gave the only scientifically "correct"
answer to Amy's amusing guessing game about the identify of
unexplained objects in the sky. Namely, that without knowledge
of witness testimony as to what the object did or didn't do,
that's all it is: a guessing game. Entertaining, but hardly real
science. A photo or film in and of itself cannot be interpreted
in any meaningful way (one exception being that if it shows
wings and tails and other obvious aircraft features, then almost
certainly is an aircraft; I am referring to photos that have no
immediate, obvious explanation).

It is all well and good to catalogue and study IFOs as Amy is
doing. All rational students of UFO phenomena have been doing
that for many years, and that is why some people tend to object
to Amy's seemingly didactic approach and semantical quibbling.

  - Dick







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   May > May 13

                       Re: Taken For A Ride - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:21:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:04:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Taken For A Ride - Balaskas


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:01:08 EDT
 >Subject: Taken For A Ride

 >Source: The Herald Sun - Melbourne, Australia

 >http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6411075%255E11869,00
.html

<snip>

 >HOW many times have you read about someone's purported alien
 >abduction and yearned for your turn?

 >When, you secretly ask yourself, will your mothership come in?
 >But sooner or later you're going to have to face the truth: you
 >may not be abductee material and, frankly, even if you are, you
 >probably won't remember the experience.

 >A simpler, more effective alternative is to pay someone to dress
 >up like an alien and pretend to abduct you. That way you'll be
 >able to remember and relish every last poke and prod for years
 >to come.

 >We kid you not, according to the barmy folks at New York-based
 >Alien Abductions Incorporated, plenty of people (they don't say
 >how many, naturally) pay to be abducted each year.

<snip>

Hi everyone!

I recalled reading something very similar not too long ago so
after a quick Internet search I think I found the story about
another New York-based company that also arranges kidnapping and
abduction experiences for a fee that I was looking for. I don't
think we have anything like this in Canada yet but I would not
be surprised if franchises are available.

http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/personalities/designer_kidnappings.shtml

Designer Kidnappings
Crissa-Jean Chappell, 21 January 2003

It begins with a list of your greatest fears. For a few thousand
dollars, Brock Enright's personalized kidnapping service will
make them come true.

<snip>

The kidnappings often take place on Manhattan's streets in broad
daylight, yet nobody has bothered to intervene on a victim's
behalf. Because Enright and his masked conspirators are
videotaping the performance, many people mistake the organized
chaos for a reality TV show. Enright says, "We've done things
very close to police and they have no clue it's even happening."


Nick Balaskas







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   May > May 13

                 Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information -

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:40:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:07:11 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:10:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:36:18 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>>Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>I'd like to take a moment to toss in my two cents worth on the
 >>>subject of why the U.S. Government won't ever be more
 >>>forthcoming with UFO-related information.

<snip>

 >Yeah, but for a group of inept people, they're doing a pretty
 >good job of keeping a lid on the whole deal. We can call them
 >the stupid government all we want, but they can't be that dumb
 >if they've supposedly blinded the planet for the last fifty


Hello all

Ahh, come on guys and girlsl, we all know its down to big dollar
signs in the eyes of the government. Let's not mince words over
trifles. If UFO and ET were said to be real by them then the
spin-off technology and dollars made would be much less. Plus
there is the superiority of armanent, defence etc.

A person with a gun pales to insignificance compared with the
technology they steal or back engineer from ET.

All this, of course, presumes ET are real and not a 'put on'.

Governments say ET is not real so do we trust them to tell us
the truth or not, and that is the question here really?
Personally I dont based on experience but I'm not too paranoid
as to mistrust everything they say.


col







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   May > May 13

                  Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:58:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:03:28 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Maccabee


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:57:52 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:44:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >>>can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >>>far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >>>a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >>>people think, in this field.

 >>That's why I 'like' photo cases in which the object is depicted
 >>so clearly and has such an 'odd' shape that the object has to be
 >>either the 'real thing (flying object not made by humans) or a
 >>hoax. The final hoax determination generally cannot be
 >>determined by the photo alone. The conclusion real or hoax is
 >>based on the circumstantial evidence and the photo is "merely"
 >>an aid to the recollection of the witness!

 >>A photo a UFO does not make.

 >>(Video can be harder to fake... but, as we know, it, too can be
 >>faked.)

 >You are so right, there are many factors to consider.

 >I was just wondering...in your analyses, do you ever totally
 >rule out the possibility an object may be something conventional
 >or have natural causes? Or do you allow for the possibility
 >forthcoming information may change your conclusion at a later
 >date? (As in new information discovered later that may indicate
 >an object was something other than identified or unidentified.)


Impossibility may be in the eye of the beholder. If I have a
distant picture of an object that looks like a car, can I rule
out the possibility that it could actually be an alligator, or
an airplane, or a monkey?

One has to compare basic characteristic s of known phenomena
with what are or appear to be the basic characteristics of the
unknown object or phenomenon. If an object is observed to travel
by through the air it would be stupid to allow for the
possibiltiy that it was a snake because fundamental
characteristics just do not match. But if an object is seen
flying through the air, then that one characteristic can be
compared with insects, birds, airplanes, etc. that do fly
through the air. Then one must compare further characteristics
of the unknown with characteristics of the known objects. Was
there any periodicity of motion suggestive of wings flappiing?
If so, then bird would be a reasonable explanation.... unless
there was something to contradict bird. An object with wings
flapping plus landing wheels and a size determined to be
hundreds of feet was not a bird. An airplane with movable wings,
perhaps? A top secret project of the US gov't? How would you
rule out the possibility that the government has invented a
large "ornithopter" when, after all, we don't know everything
the government does? (This is on par with suggesting that
totally silent, slow moving triangle objects are actually top
secret gov't devices that use antigravity means to provide the
support for the device..... even though there is no evidence in
the "open" world of science that someone has created an
antigravity device.)

One can't logically try to explain one unknown with another
unknown. Many years ago bright glowing unexplained lights that
could have been "unidentified flhying objects" were sometimes
explained as large plasmas or ball lightning. PJKlass was a
proponent of the plasma explanation. He soon found out that one
does not explain one unknown as another unknown (his explanation
was dismissed).... because scientists at that time didn't
"believe" (there's that 7 letter word) that ball lightning was a
real "thing." Ball lightning reports were actually reports of
afterimages of lightning strikes or something like that, they
thought. Nowadays the evidence has accumulated to the point
where ball lightning is accepted as a real, unique phenomenon
even though no one knew exactly how it works. (So now it is OK
to explain a UFO light as ball lightning. LOL)

I have defined a TRUFO report as the report of a phenomenon that
remains unidentified after investigation. It could be an new
natural phenomenon (e.g., ball lightning, years ago; sprites and
such in the upper atmosphere until a few years ago) or it might
have characteristics that make it seem unnatural. The really
interesting TRUFO reports contain descriptions of some
phenomenon that seems "unnatural" or evidence of
"intelligence,"...but not human intelligence.

Example: the Trent photo object. In 1950 we didn't have any
circular airplanes with posts on the top, slightly asymmetric
and so on. The object certainly doesn't look like a circular
pelican or other bird. Doesn't look like a balloon or blimp (it
has a flat bottom, flat topped "dome" and a "post on top) , so,
what could it have been? Either a hoax or something that we
can't recognize. Since after years of investigation I don't
accept the hoax explanation for the Trent's sighting (and I do
not believe it is a truck mirror hanging from a string) then I
have to accept that the presence of that object moving past the
Trent's house is evidence that some unusual object passed by.
The shape of the object and its aerodynamic capabilities are not
consistent with aircraft made by mankind at that time (oh, there
might' be a small model something or other, stashed somewhere,
but not a large object that would happen to fly past the Trent's
farm) . In the early days of UFO reports it was claimed by the
AF that sightings were of the "flapjack" semicircular type
aircraft. The AF didn't bother to point out that the one
wingless test craft never got more than a few feet from the
ground. All the wonderful things that were supposed to happen if
Project Silverbug was developed never did happen.

So the answer to your question is, yes, in some cases I conclude
that the object/phenomenon was not man-made and not natural and
that no explanation would be found in the future.

As another example I would refer to the New Zealand sightings of
Dec. 1978 which have never been explained as natural or manmade
phenomena. Oh, yes, of course, explanations have been _proposed_
and the press has picked them up and run with them, but upon
analysis they all fall apart. The data collectted during the
sightings (color movie film, radar returns, observations by the
witnesses recorded at the time on audio tape ) suggest some
unnatural phenomenon was seen. Motions of the bright light
suggest reaction to actions (turning) of the airplane. Hence
there is some evidence that intelligence was involved... but not
human intelligence.






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   May > May 14

                   Writ Of Habeas Corpus Extraterrestrial

From: Eustaquio Anddraa Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:12:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:03:18 -0400
Subject: Writ Of Habeas Corpus Extraterrestrial


Petition For Writ Of Habeas Corpus Extraterrestrial

Source: Office of the Solicitor General - United States
         Department Of Justice

http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/1988/sg880468.txt

LARRY W. BRYANT, PETITIONER V. FRANK C. CARLUCCI, SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE, ET AL.

No. 87-1898

In The Supreme Court Of The United States

October Term, 1988

On Petition For A Writ Of Certiorari To The United States Court
Of Appeals For The Fourth Circuit

Memorandum For The Respondents In Opposition

Petitioner, a federal employee who sought equitable relief
against alleged retaliation by his superiors for his exercise of
First Amendment rights, claims that the courts below erred in
holding that he is limited to the remedies provided by the Civil
Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA).

1. Petitioner, a GS-11 civilian employee of the Army News
Service, is also the director of a group called Citizens Against
UFO Secrecy, which believes that the government is suppressing
information about unidentified flying objects (UFOs). In 1983,
petitioner filed a "Petition for Writ of Habeas Corpus
Extraterrestrial," in which, by his account, he asked a district
court "to order the Air Force to produce, for the Court's
disposition, the bodies of all crew members retrieved from
crash-landed 'flying saucers' during the past three decades"
(C.A. App. 36). After that petition was dismissed, he placed
advertisements in newspapers reaching members of the armed
forces, seeking information to support his contentions. For
example, one advertisement (appended to the consent judgment
reprinted at Pet. App. 15a-17a) asked service members who were
"stationed at Homestead AFB back in the seventies, when Richard
M. Nixon allegedly allowed entertainer Jackie Gleason to view a
repository of UFO artifacts (including some of their alien
occupants)," to "(h)elp us find and reveal the truth" (Exh. A).

Petitioner claims that, after he publicized his concerns, his
performance ratings generally declined from "exceptional" to
"satisfactory" and that, in retaliation for his actions, his
supervisors have given him less responsibility (Pet. 4-5).
Petitioner has not, however, been demoted, suspended, or
subjected to any other adverse personnel action.

Invoking his remedies under the CSRA, petitioner filed a
prohibited personnel practice claim with the Office of Special
Counsel of the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB) (see 5
U.S.C. 1206). The Special Counsel found no basis for concluding
that a prohibited personnel practice (see 5 U.S.C. 2302) had
occurred (Pet. App. 6a, 9a; Pet. 13 n.11). Petitioner
subsequently filed a grievance, focusing on an "unsatisfactory"
performance rating he received in early 1986. /1/ A
representative of the United States Army Civilian Appellate
Review Agency, an independent organization that investigates
grievances, held a meeting at which petitioner (who chose not to
be represented by counsel) presented evidence and questioned
witnesses (C.A. App. 17-18). The investigator concluded that the
"unsatisfactory" performance rating was accurate and was not
given in reprisal for petitioner's UFO activities (id. at 19).

Petitioner thereupon sued the Secretaries of Defense, the Army,
and the Air Force in the United States District Court for the
Eastern District of Virginia, invoking jurisdiction under 28
U.S.C. 1331. Alleging that his First Amendment rights had been
violated, petitioner sought equitable relief, but did not seek
damages under Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents of the Federal
Bureau of Narcotics, 403 U.S. 388 (1971). The district court
granted the defendants' motion to dismiss on the authority of
Pinar v. Dole, 747 F.2d 899 (4th Cir. 1984), cert. denied, 471
U.S. 1016 (1985). In that case the Fourth Circuit held that a
federal employee alleging a violation of his constitutional
rights, who had no right to judicial review under the CSRA
because he had suffered only minor adverse actions (a reprimand,
a two-day suspension, and termination of a temporary promotion),
could not otherwise invoke a court's jurisdiction (Pet. App.
13a). The district court concluded that, under Pinar, it
likewise had no jurisdiction over petitioner's claim.

The Fourth Circuit affirmed in an unpublished opinion (Pet. App.
1a-6a). Noting that it had concluded in Pinar "that judicial
review of minor personnel actions would fly in the face of
Congress' clear intent to distinguish between disciplinary
actions according to the severity of the punishment imposed and
provide for varying degrees of review based on the deprivation
in question," the court stated that "to challenge personnel
actions, (petitioner's) remedies are limited to those provided
in the CSRA" (id. at 6a).

2. The courts below correctly dismissed petitioner's suit.
Although there is presently a conflict between the Fourth
Circuit and the District of Columbia Circuit on the question
whether federal employees may bring suit in federal district
court challenging personnel decisions on constitutional grounds
other than through the procedures set forth in the CSRA, review
of that question is not warranted at this time. The Court has
recently decided a number of cases bearing on the rights of
federal employees suffering adverse personnel actions -- United
States v. Fausto, No. 86-595 (Jan. 25, 1988), Schweiker v.
Chilicky, No. 86-1781 (June 24, 1988), and Webster v. Doe, No.
86-1294 (June 15, 1988) -- and the courts of appeals should
reconsider what sorts of claims federal employees may bring in
light of those cases before this Court considers the matter.

a. The Court held in Fausto that "the comprehensive nature of
the CSRA" (slip op. 8) compelled the conclusion that a federal
employee, who did not allege a constitutional violation, could
not challenge a 30-day suspension by bringing suit under the
Tucker Act in the Claims Court. The Court reached that
conclusion even though the employee, a member of the "excepted
service" (see 5 U.S.C. 2103(a) and 5 C.F.R. 213.3201), had no
right to judicial review of the suspension under the CSRA,
unlike non-probationary employees in the competitive service
(see 5 U.S.C. 7511-7513, 7703). /2/ Applying the test of Abbott
Laboratories v. Gardner, 387 U.S. 136, 140 (1967), the Court
found that "'the presumption favoring judicial review . . . (has
been) overcome by inference of intent drawn from the statutory
scheme as a whole.'" Fausto, slip op. 13 (quoting Block v.
Community Nutrition Inst., 467 U.S. 340, 349 (1984)). In
reaching that conclusion, the Court noted that Congress intended
the CSRA to replace the "'outdated patchwork of statutes and
rules built up over almost a century'" (id. at 4, quoting S.
Rep. 95-969, 95th Cong., 2d Sess. 3 (1978)). The Court
particularly relied on the fact that it would turn the scheme of
the CSRA "upside down" to allow excepted service employees to
challenge suspensions directly in the Claims Court, while
competitive service employees, who are generally given greater
rights under the CSRA, would have to go to the MSPB before
obtaining limited judicial review in the Federal Circuit (slip
op. 10).

Fausto lends support to the Fourth Circuit's position that
employees challenging personnel actions on constitutional
grounds must proceed under the CSRA or not at all. The test
applied in Fausto in concluding that "'congressional intent to
preclude review is "fairly discernible in the statutory
scheme"'" (slip op. 12-13, quoting Block v. Community Nutrition
Inst., 467 U.S. at 351, quoting Data Processing Serv. v. Camp,
397 U.S. 150, 157 (1970)), derived from Abbott Laboratories, and
is the same test that this Court has applied in analyzing
whether review of consitutional claims has been precluded. See
Johnson v. Robison, 415 U.S. 361, 373-374 (1974).

To be sure, Webster v. Doe the Court concluded that a
constitutional claim based on the discharge of an employee of
the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was subject to review by a
district court (slip op. 10), even though Congress had plainly
indicated in Section 102(c) of the National Security Act of
1947, 50 U.S.C. 403(c), that it did not intend to allow review
of discharges. For two reasons, however, this Court's decision
in Webster v. Doe does not mean that the district court must
hold a trial to consider whether petitioner's performance
ratings were lowered in retaliation for his publication of his
belief that the government is suppressing information about
UFOs. First, unlike the CIA employee in Webster v. Doe,
petitioner has specific remedies available to him under the
CSRA, which he in fact invoked. Indeed, the prohibited personnel
practice provisions were established in part so that the Special
Counsel could protect whistleblowers, which is what petitioner
supposes he is, from retaliation (see 5 U.S.C. 2302(b)(8)). CIA
employees, in contrast, may not complain to the Special Counsel,
because the CIA is specifically exempted from the prohibited
personnel practice provisions by 5 U.S.C. 2302(a)(2)(C). Nor can
such employees file grievances under the procedures established
by OPM (see note 1, supra), since the CIA is specifically
exempted from OPM's grievance regulations by 5 C.F.R.
771.206(a). /3/ The fact that Congress provided appropriate
remedies for petitioner under the CSRA supports the conclusion
that it intended that he not be allowed to pursue others. Cf.
Bush v. Lucas, 462 U.S. 367 (1983); Brown v. GSA, 425 U.S. 820,
834-835 (1976).

Second, the employee in Webster v. Doe was discharged, whereas
petitioner primarily complains that his performance ratings have
declined. The scheme of the CSRA shows that Congress did not
intend to authorize judicial review of such minor matters. Under
the performance appraisal system set forth in Chapter 43 of
Title 5, 5 U.S.C. 4301 et seq., which was established by the
CSRA, employees who are proposed to be demoted or removed on
account of unacceptable performance ratings have certain
procedural rights (5 U.S.C. 4303(b)), and competitive service
employees who are demoted or removed may challenge the adverse
action in the MSPB (5 U.S.C. 4303(e)), with review in the
Federal Circuit (5 U.S.C. 7703). Employees like petitioner,
however, who have not been either demoted or removed, are
entitled only to file a grievance and complain to the MSPB's
Office of Special Counsel about a prohibited personnel practice,
as the court below recognized (Pet. App. 5a). /4/ Thus, the
scheme of the CSRA, under which the procedures available to an
employee depend on the severity of the action taken against him,
makes clear that Congress did not intend to authorize review of
minor complaints such as a decline in performance ratings.
Indeed, it would turn the CSRA "upside down" (Fausto, slip op.
10) to allow petitioner to go directly to court to challenge his
performance ratings, while employees who have been demoted or
removed on account of unacceptable performance ratings must
complain to the MSPB, with limited review in the Federal
Circuit.

Moreover, the scheme of the CSRA, under which judicial review is
available only in cases involving serious adverse actions, is
plainly sensible. The approach petitioner advocates, in
contrast, would require judicial review of any personnel matter
where an employee can frame his complaint in constitutional
terms. As this case illustrates, "even the most minor of
disciplinary actions can be alleged to have been taken in
retaliaion for something an employee once said" (Pinar, 747 F.2d
at 911). But there is no good reason why courts should "become
involved in the most rudimentary of personnel matters"; to the
contrary, permitting judicial review whenever an employee
alleges a constitutional deprivation would "inhibit supervisors
from taking even the most minor disciplinary actions for fear of
having to justify their actions in federal court" (ibid.).

b. As petitioner states (Pet. 8-9), there is a conflict in the
circuits on the question presented. The conflict, however, is
much more limited than petitioner suggests. Two of the decisions
petitioner cites as conflicting with the decision below --
  McIntosh v. Weinberger, 810 F.2d 1411 (8th Cir. 1987), vacated,
No. 87-174 (June 27, 1988), and Kotarski v. Cooper, 799 F.2d
1342 (9th Cir. 1986), vacated, No. 86-1813 (June 27, 1988) --
  are not squarely on point because they are Bivens cases. /5/ As
petitioner recognizes (see Pet. 8-9 n.7), the question whether
equitable relief is available to remedy an alleged
constitutional violation is not the same as the question whether
a damage remedy against individual government employees should
be created under Bivens. Moreover, this Court recently vacated
McIntosh and Kotarski and remanded for reconsideration in light
of Schweiker v. Chilicky. /6/ The only other case petitioner
cites from outside the District of Columbia Circuit, Egger v.
Phillips, 710 F.2d 292 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 918
(1983), is also a Bivens case. /7/

The decisions of the Fourth Circuit and the District of Columbia
Circuit do conflict, however. The Fourth Circuit has concluded
that personnel decisions, including those allegedly made in
violation of the Constitution, may be challenged only as
provided in the CSRA, while the District of Columbia Circuit has
held that an employee without a judicial remedy under the CSRA
may obtain review of a constitutional claim under other
statutes. /8/

In light of the decision to remand McIntosh and Kotarski for
further proceedings, it seems clear that the Court has decided
that the Bivens issue does not warrant review at this time. The
question presented here is somewhat different in that petitioner
alleges a constitutional violation but does not seek a Bivens
remedy. Nevertheless, we think that review of the question
presented here is not warranted at this time either. Although it
remains our position that the Fourth Circuit has correctly
concluded that Congress can preclude review of personnel
decisions and has done so with respect to cases like this one,
the courts of appeals should be allowed to analyze these cases
under the standards of Fausto, Schweiker v. Chilicky, and
Webster v. Doe before this Court again addresses the rights of
federal employees challenging personnel decisions.

It is therefore respectfully submitted that the petition for a
writ of certiorari should be denied.

CHARLES FRIED

Solicitor General

AUGUST 1988

/1/ Under authority granted to it in the CSRA (5 U.S.C. 1302),
the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) requires federal
agencies, including the military, to establish grievance systems
in which employees may raise "any matter of concern or
dissatisfaction relating to the employment of an employee which
is subject to the control of agency management" (5 C.F.R.
771.205).

/2/ Moreover, the employee would have had a right to review
under the Tucker Act prior to the enactment of the CSRA and the
CSRA did not expressly repeal that cause of action (Fausto, slip
op. 12-15).

/3/ We argued in passing in Webster v. Doe (see Pet. Br. at 12-
13 n.9) that CIA employees were limited to their remedies under
the CSRA. The Court did not address that argument.

/4/ The provisions governing adverse actions not based on
unacceptable performance ratings, which are in Chapter 75 of
Title 5, 5 U.S.C. 7501 et seq., like the provisons of Chapter
43, distinghish between the remedies available in adverse action
cases based on the severity of the action. Judicial review is
available only in cases of "major" adverse actions, which are
defined as removals, suspensions for more than 14 days,
reductions in grade or pay, and furloughs (5 U.S.C. 7512).

/5/ Although this Court declined to recognize a Bivens remedy
for federal employees in Bush v. Lucas, 462 U.S. at 388, citing
the "elaborate remedial scheme" constructed by Congress to
consider employees' claims, the courts in Kotarski and McIntosh
distinguished Bush v. Lucas because the plaintiffs in those
cases had more limited rights under the CSRA. McIntosh, 810 F.2d
at 1435; Kotarski, 799 F.2d at 1346.

/6/ The Court in Schweiker v. Chilicky declined to create a
Bivens remedy for allegedly unconstitutional deprivations of
disability benefits. Reading the decision in Fausto, where the
Court stressed the comprehensive nature of the CSRA, together
with the decision in Schweiker v. Chilicky, where the Court held
that a Bivens remedy is not appropriate "(w)hen the design of a
government program suggests that Congress has provided what it
considers remedial mechanisms for constitutional violation that
may occur in the course of its administration" (slip op. 10), we
would submit that no Bivens remedy should be created authorizing
damages for unconstitutional federal personnel actions.

/7/ The District of Columbia Circuit is presently considering en
banc whether federal employees with limited rights under the
CSRA may bring Bivens actions, in order to resolve its
conflicting decisions on that question in Hubbard v.
Environmental Protections Agency, 809 F.2d 1 (1986), and
Spagnola v. Mathis, 809 F.2d 16 (1986). See 809 F.2d at 40-41.

/8/ The decisions of the Fourth Circuit and the District of
Columbia Circuit differ somewhat in that petitioner and the
employee in Pinar alleged minor injuries, and the court here
(Pet. App. 6a) and the court in Pinar relied on that fact (747
F.2d at 911). Most of the employees in the cases in the District
of Columbia Circuit, in contrast, suffered more severe injuries.
The employee in Hubbard was denied employment; the employee in
Spagnola was denied a promotion; the employee in Williams v.
IRS, 745 F.2d 702 (D.C. Cir. 1984), was suspended for five days;
the employee in Cutts v. Fowler, 692 F.2d 138 (D.C. Cir. 1982),
was transferred; and the employee in Borrell v. United States
Int'l Communications Agency, 682 F.2d 981 (D.C. Cir. 1982), was
discharged.







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   May > May 14

                            Secret KGB UFO Hoo-Ha

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:06:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:04:44 -0400
Subject: Secret KGB UFO Hoo-Ha


List,

Didn't someone do a thorough expose on this series of
"documentaries" that the Sci-Fi channnel is now broadcasting?
Anyone know if it is archived online?


Thanks,

Chris Burns







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                           Re: 'Frank M'? - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:32:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:26:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Rogers


 >From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >>Subject: 'Frank M'?

 >>Hello All,

 >>Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
 >>M'?

 >>Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The
 >>researchers are Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.

 >Frank M. is a person that the IF (Intruders Foundation)
 >invesitgated, he ia an upstate resident of New York, he was
 >videotaping a UFO when a few moments later he was abducted from
 >the same craft he had been recording Bruce Maccabee had analyzed
 >the tape and have found it to be authentic.....

What does 'authentic' mean? That it was an alien spaceship?

Ian Rogers






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:32:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:28:24 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:44:45 -0300
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:39:13 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>Some people seem to feel threatened when their UFO images and
 >>claims are put under scrutiny expecting, instead, their words
 >>and images to be accepted without question. These are also the
 >>individuals who complain the most about those conducting more
 >>scientific research. Perhaps it's because they have the most to
 >>lose.

 >You know I hear and see this statement a great deal. But I've
 >never actually seen evidence of it. Some people shoot this stuff
 >and then ask what it is and are satisfied when someone proves
 >its prosaic in nature.

 >Amy, if you are going to start using generalizations as
 >arguments, you are going to weaken your argument. Frankly I'm
 >surprised you would begin using it if you are certain of your
 >own theories. Attacking others in a general form doesn't prove
 >anything other than perhaps you feel you are on shaky ground
 >yourself. Prove or disprove, never mind the tongue in cheek
 >cliches.

You just used a generalization in your own statement when you
referred to "some people", Don. Sometimes it's just a way of
expressing opinion, not necessarily fact, which is exactly what
I was doing.

As for tongue-in-cheek cliches, you might want to read over a
few of the statements made by others recently - something to do
with hogs and lipstick, kindergarten and recycled Klass
theories. We have a colorful group on this List and cliches
abound. Are cliches against the rules?

 >I wonder if you wouldn't mind mapping out a frame work or
 >reference guide as to how to initially eliminate photographic
 >evidence of an aerial UO. Would you also include the humanistic
 >traits to the recording of the incident as to important or
 >unimportant.

Ya know, Don, I'm beginning to hate the word "eliminate". I do
not advocate the elimination of any evidence, only careful study
and analysis. But the idea of mapping out an initial frame work
or reference guide is exactly what I am doing with the IFO
Database. When a researcher or investigator comes across or is
presented with alleged images of UFO's, he or she can use the
IFO Database as a comparison tool to see if any of the images in
the Database appear similar to the images of alleged UFO's.
Whether or not there is a match between the alleged UFO images
and IFO images, further study must always follow. The IFO
Database is not intended to eliminate photographic evidence,
only provide a guide for further study.

In reference to "humanistic traits", do you mean human behavior
or... what? Humanistic is an adjective usually used to describe
a philosophy or attitude that centers on the values, interests
and potential of human beings. I'm not sure what this has to do
with UFO's and UFO witnesses.

If you are referring to the importance of human behaviors
involved in UFO sightings and investigations, yes, I think this
is an important component to be considered. However, just as
professionals are important in the analysis of alleged UFO
materials, professionally trained behavioral scientists need to
be consulted in the analysis of human reactions and behaviors
that may be involved. Just interviewing a witness and calling
them "honest", "upstanding", "truthful" or "trustworthy" is a
subjective conclusion not based on professional behavioral
analysis.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:37:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:30:05 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:55:18 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:02:15 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>What I see here is a classic case of late-night-talkshowitis.

 >>Listeners are supposed to enjoy the tall tales, and of course
 >>buy the products advertised (instant youth in a bottle etc.)
 >>Its sad really, but some part of the audience actually believes
 >>the stories!

 >>Amazing.

 >You can call every government crime nonsense, and find people
 >and web sites who will say so. Just as government and big
 >organization crime are real, so are disinfo agents. I'm not
 >speculating, I know this personally.

 >Saying those crime examples are nonsense is your choice. But
 >whether you want it to be true or not, government and big
 >organization crimes continue, and continue in so-called
 >democratic countries.

 >I have had my home entered, and small items stolen, sabotaged,
 >sometimes returned, for the past 23 years. Ditto my car, and my
 >workplace. No individual or organization could accomplish that
 >without active cover by agencies whose job it is to protect us.
 >MKULTRA and COINTELPRO were real projects which included just
 >that type of activity, and which have never had the activity
 >stopped, just the names discontinued.
 >
 >Plenty of others have been through much worse. I do hope neither
 >you nor your family or friends will ever have to go through such
 >atrocities.
 >
 >Government and big organization crimes are a whole lot more than
 >titillating late-night conversation. If you want to debate this
 >point further, please use my personal email address.

So you, Eleanor White, have officially been hassled by The Man?

You should have told me from the beginning that you think you've
been stalked by covert government agencies for the last 23
years. I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to convince you of
anything. You're clearly a believer, tried and true.


Ian Rogers






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:41:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:33:58 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:12:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:47:21 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>Do you believe everything written on these websites? Is there
 >>anything you don't believe?

 >When I hear from people who were first-hand involved in
 >something testify on the radio, for example, those who have
 >benefitted from a cancer cure, I begin to believe. When I hear
 >something repeated on different shows, I believe a little more.

 >When the speaker has a good reputation, I believe more.

 >When _references_ which can be verified are given to back up
 >something on the radio, I believe more.

So, more or less, you believe what people tell you. And if
they've got letters after their name (oh, say... Ph.D), then
you believe them more - because who with a Ph. D would lie? Who
with a Ph. D would lie?

BTW, I hope your references consist of more than just websites.
Because I have a website. I could put all kinds of stuff on it
and say it was true.

 >Please don't confuse "believe" with "guaranteeing total
 >accuracy". That's not what belief is. My beliefs get adjusted
 >every time better evidence comes along. I think believing gets
 >undeserved bad press. I never guarantee total accuracy with
 >anything I haven't participated in.

 >I am not ashamed to believe things.

Of course you wouldn't. You believe things so easily, Eleanor.


Ian Rogers






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:45:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:36:51 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:21:15 -0300
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:16:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >>>If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
 >>>conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
 >>>phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

 >>>I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >>>can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >>>far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >>>a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >>>people think, in this field.

 >>I couldn't agree with you more, Ian.

 >>Well said! Hit the nail on the head. The best we can conclude
 >>about something unknown is that the data is inconclusive.

 >>Thank you!

 >I don't know about that premise. If someone is holding the
 >winning hand in a poker game and I don't call them, how then
 >would I ever know if they had the winning hand - if they don't
 >declare it?

 >The solution then, is inconclusive for me, and always will be,
 >but not the winner of the game. If you transpose the winner of
 >this game in this case is some intelligence in an object not of
 >this Earth, and this intelligence doesn,t want to declare
 >itself, how the heck are you ever going to prove it?

You're presuming too much already. Who said anything about
intelligences in objects not of this earth? We're talking about
inconclusive images on videotapes. Let's not jump ahead.

 >Proving something is inconclusive is not an answer, it's just
 >putting the question on hold.

Alien spacecraft wouldn't be a good answer, though. It's not
backed up with evidence. Inconclusive is not evidence. That's
why I refuse to call inconclusive videos proof of alien
spacecraft visiting earth.

 >What you seem to be suggesting is that time will eventually
 >prove that each UFO is really an IFO of prosaic means. That's
 >just Klass's theory being recycled isn't it?

All I'm saying is that to presume something is alien just
because you can't tell what it is, is beyond irresponsible. It's
certainly not scientific!! It's more akin to religion since it's
more a matter of what you _believe_ it to be.

 >All of the unsolved UFO sightings are due to the lack of
 >sufficient information.

 >Who determines what is sufficient information? Where's the
 >cut-off point?

Frankly, I'm more interested in who determines what is an alien
spaceship. There doesn't seem to be any cut-off point there. Not
even a little bit!


Ian Rogers







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              Re: he U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:50:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:40:12 -0400
Subject: Re: he U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:40:24 +0100
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:10:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:36:18 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>>From: Walt Spivey Jr. <MacleodIV@webtv.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>>>Subject: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>>I'd like to take a moment to toss in my two cents worth on the
 >>>>subject of why the U.S. Government won't ever be more
 >>>>forthcoming with UFO-related information.

 ><snip>

 >>Yeah, but for a group of inept people, they're doing a pretty
 >>good job of keeping a lid on the whole deal. We can call them
 >>the stupid government all we want, but they can't be that dumb
 >>if they've supposedly blinded the planet for the last fifty

 >Ahh, come on guys and girls, we all know its down to big dollar
 >signs in the eyes of the government. Let's not mince words over
 >trifles. If UFO and ET were said to be real by them then the
 >spin-off technology and dollars made would be much less. Plus
 >there is the superiority of armanent, defence etc.

Yeah, but if you listen to some '"ufologists", the spin-off
technology _is_ here. That DVD players and microwave ovens are
not really natural progressions of our technology but reverse-
engineered goodies from the brave aliens that died during the
Roswell UFO crash of '47.


Ian Rogers







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   May > May 14

                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:42:22 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:47:24 +0000
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:06:57 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >Anyway, I think that I gave the only scientifically "correct"
 >answer to Amy's amusing guessing game about the identify of
 >unexplained objects in the sky. Namely, that without knowledge
 >of witness testimony as to what the object did or didn't do,
 >that's all it is: a guessing game.

Ah, but Dick, you missed the point of the Pop Quiz. All I asked
is could you identify the object just by looking at the images
presented. The point being, we must be careful when reviewing
alleged images of UFO's and not assume that just because an
object looks unusual, it must _be_ anomalous. You may know this
but, believe it or not, there _are_ people out there who don't
bother to go beyond the mere images in their analyses. There are
many web sites on the internet that demonstrate this tendency.

You are right, it is a guessing game. Even with witness
testimony, it's a guessing game. There is no way we can know for
sure when someone is telling the absolute truth or not
misinterpreting their sighting therefore, with or without
photographic images, investigators and researchers must always
remain aware of just how little fact they actually have to work
with.

 >It is all well and good to catalogue and study IFOs as Amy is
 >doing. All rational students of UFO phenomena have been doing
 >that for many years, and that is why some people tend to object
 >to Amy's seemingly didactic approach and semantical quibbling.

Dick, this is exciting! Could you please share all the URLs to
these IFO databases so that I may link to them in my own
Database? If all rational students of UFO phenomena have been
compiling IFO databases for many years, I can't wait to see
them! So far, I've only found a handful of others who have
shared their studies in this area, such as Mr. Tom King, Dr.
Maccabee, Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff and Mr. Gary Burton. But I've
never found a large collection of IFO studies collected and
presented on one web site (except mine).

Some people seem to like my approach, some don't. Same for your
work, Dick. That's how this list functions - a little something
for everyone.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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             Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:31:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:21:13 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Rogers


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:19:48 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:52:06 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 ><snip>

 >>And how do we know that these aliens (assuming they exist) are
 >>not planning to invade us....? This statement is based on what
 >>knowledge?

 >Observations of their constant presence by sightings, and their
 >activities by way of abductions. And if Nick Balaskas' find of
 >papers in Ottawa about the Eisenhower administration are valid,
 >the fact that they chose to negotiate.

 >One abductee reported, according to Whitley Strieber, that he
 >was shown people at a picnic on a screen, in the UFO. He was
 >asked if he could 'pick out the aliens from the native humans'.
 >He could not, as everyone looked pretty human. If that is true,
 >that points to some sort of eventual integration, rather than an
 >outright invasion.

 >It may ultimately end up as if an invasion had taken place, of
 >course, but it certainly doesn't look like one so far.

I think I'm gonna need a ruling on this one. First, I don't
believe that Nick Balaskas found the smoking gun of Ufology in
an Ottawa govt. document archive. And as far as I understand,
the abductions are not exactly pleasant experiences. Also,
you're basing this statement on third-hand testimony, from a
_single_ alien abductee ask to pick out the aliens in a human
lineup.

Eleanor, surely you must know this doesn't hold an ounce of
water.

Ian Rogers






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                   Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:54:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:55:35 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Stanford


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:29:25 -0700
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:32:04 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >I also champion the alien autopsy as being a real event, but
 >don't understand the "for personal reasons"; perhaps you could
 >elaborate.

I shall spare you the embarrassment.

<snip>

Then you go on:

 >Good question. If the A-LM were deposited from a disabled craft,
 >then it should be found on individual sand pebbles and in the
 >dirt just as you say. I haven't looked but I will when I return
 >to the site, hopefully with you and other interested listers,
 >this summer. The wind and rain over the last fifty-five years
 >have probably dispersed the individual sand particles, but there
 >should still be evidence of their existance if we screen the
 >sand around heavy concentrations of the A-LM.

You know well that if the chalcedony had been deposited in the
ground it would not only be on individual sand particles but
would exist like a crust, holding the soil together and it would
not have blown away.

I strongly suspect, seeing your will-to-believe attitude, that
you would go out, find tiny particles of the rocks (that have
weathered off the larger rocks) with water-deposited chalcedony
remaining on them, and claim it is proof the ground was once
covered with the stuff. Well, that will not make your case!

You would have to show large areas of soil with the 'A-LM'
binding the sand particles together. You will never, ever find
that, Ed, because your 'theory' is nothing but a ludicrous pipe
dream.

I have decided not to play your game. Let the micro probe reveal
it is nothing but silica dioxide with minor traces, and you will
immediately say, regardless, that it was deposited by the UFO.
So, where would we be? I would have wasted the lab's instrument
time, and you would still be singing the same old B.S. song.

This decision is based on your response, today, and upon letters
I have received from several esteemed members of this List who,
unlike you, have good objectivity and, in several cases, records
of important contributions to UFO studies. They have advised me
to not waste my time, for they have witnessed your behavior on
this List and elsewhere. They tell me you are a hopeless case,
and you have pretty well convinced me of that.

 >Until we are able to study the actual propulsion systems of UFO,
 >one theory is as good as another.

Ridiculous! The theory based on fact is far superior to ideas
based on hoaxes and the pipe dreams of their believers.

 >I base my ideas on the work of
 >Ivan Sanderson, and my understanding of vehemas, the flying
 >crafts used by the ancients of India.

In the first place, what relevance has that to this?! Hey, I'm
one step (or more) ahead of you on that stuff, and was likely
reading it before you were ever born. The old Indian word is not
"vehemas", but "vimana". If you prefer to do your 'science' by
parroting (albeit inaccurately) old writings of India, then
that's fine, but don't try to explain naturally occurring
chalcedony on rocks in a New Mexico desert as being from a
"vimana"!

<snip>

 >...The disabled craft picked up sand and converted it along
 >with atmospheric moisture and other chemicals and debris to form
 >the A-LM which it dispersed when it crash-landed.

Damn! I wish I had a crystal ball like yours that can reveal
exactly the truth about every situation without factual basis or
any research!!! Must be nice! :)

I had said:

 >>Can you really expect any intelligent person to want to listen
 >>to that kind of pseudoscientific crap? I hoped, since it was "my
 >>dime", as you say, that it would be more constructive to explain
 >>to you the process of chalcedony formation and more about its
 >>characteristics, plus to correct the flawed nature of your
 >>reasoning. It looks, however, that my time and phone expense was
 >>wasted.

  And you responded:

 >Not at all. I learned alot.

Not enough!

 >It [visiting the alleged crash site] would be a wonderful
 >experience for you; the chance in a lifetime.

LMAO! - like I my wife and I did when we saw that ludicrously
flawed AA film!

 >I don't see the point to all that [hoax description of crash
 >site.]. What would this person gain?

Some people hoax for money, some for a sense of power over those
who fall for it, others do so for both reasons. Where have you
been all your life, Ed?

<snip>

 >Hopefully our discussion will motivate some listers to visit the
 >site and see for themselves whether it's a crash site
 >possibility or not.

If anyone is unobservant and 'wide-eyed' enough to believe the
AA film, they deserve their 'just reward', so let them waste
their money and time with you out in your 'Field of Dreams', Ed.

Have fun, use sunscreen, careful of scorpions and snakes, but
you can be certain that I will not be there.

 >There's nothing wrong with your description. In fact
 >it's quite well done, but it doesn't apply to this site.

Dream on, Ed!

<snip>

 >EBK and Listers know that I wouldn't try to sucker them.

I wouldn't want to speak for EBK, but the Listers who have
written me declare that you are the sucker, Ed, and we know that
self-deception seeks company.

Yes, Ed, I've changed my mind about asking for a microprobe
because I refuse to lead a laboratory on your 'wild goose
chase', in which (in view of your letter to this list, of May
13) you would once more try to twist the result into your own
misperception of reality -- and that's putting it about as
kindly as I know how.

If you're so convinced you have something other than chalcedony,
I leave it to you to make a fool of yourself to the staff of
some lab with a microprobe, but don't try to 'force my hand'.

Have fun, because fields of dreams can dissolve before your very
eyes - but only if you dare open your eyes to see what's really
there, and not there.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles." --
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery





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   May > May 14

                             IFO's 101 - Case #2

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:52:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:12:26 -0400
Subject: IFO's 101 - Case #2


IFO's 101, Case #2 is now available at:

http://home.attbi.com/~vanguardresearch/ifocase2.htm

for those interested. (This one is easy.)

Please note that I have very limited web space and cannot, at
the moment, post these AVI's and MPG's permanently. I can only
present the materials one case at a time so if you wish to save
these images for future reference, please feel free to do so. I
will need to remove IFO's 101, case #1 within the next two days
in order to share new information and images I have recently
obtained concerning alleged "rods".

When I find the web space I need, all cases will be posted at
the new URL. We are also moving at the end of this month so I
may be off line for a while until I re-establish my new internet
connection.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:15:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:43:57 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:55:18 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:02:15 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 ><snip>

 >>What I see here is a classic case of late-night-talkshowitis.

 >>Listeners are supposed to enjoy the tall tales, and of course
 >>buy the products advertised (instant youth in a bottle etc.)
 >>Its sad really, but some part of the audience actually believes
 >>the stories!

 >>Amazing.


 >You can call every government crime nonsense, and find people
 >and web sites who will say so. Just as government and big
 >organization crime are real, so are disinfo agents. I'm not
 >speculating, I know this personally.

 >Saying those crime examples are nonsense is your choice. But
 >whether you want it to be true or not, government and big
 >organization crimes continue, and continue in so-called
 >democratic countries.

 >I have had my home entered, and small items stolen, sabotaged,
 >sometimes returned, for the past 23 years. Ditto my car, and my
 >workplace. No individual or organization could accomplish that
 >without active cover by agencies whose job it is to protect us.
 >MKULTRA and COINTELPRO were real projects which included just
 >that type of activity, and which have never had the activity
 >stopped, just the names discontinued.

 >Plenty of others have been through much worse. I do hope neither
 >you nor your family or friends will ever have to go through such
 >atrocities.

 >Government and big organization crimes are a whole lot more than
 >titillating late-night conversation. If you want to debate this
 >point further, please use my personal email address.

 >Eleanor White

Hello Eleanor:

I have no idea how the highly questionable story of 23,000
Clementine lunar backside images getting squelched, drifted off
into organized crime, thefts, COINTELPRO/MLULTRA conspiracies
etc.

I have no time to pursue such matters, especially if they are
going to drift all over the map. Lets just agree to disagree.

I hope that the obscure figures who steal small items from your
home, work or car return them all promptly.


Best wishes

- Larry







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                         Another Abduction Question

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:30:37 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:44:59 -0400
Subject: Another Abduction Question


Reading Allan Hendry's "The UFO Handbook"
(p. 136) I have found the following:

"k) A sixty-three-year-old retired automobile dealer left his
trailer home in southwestern Georgia for a walk with his two
dogs. Crossing a pasture, he saw a round UFO flash out of the
sky and hover two feet off the ground in front of him. The
witness, his dogs, and the cattle around him were all paralized.
Three men and two women with pale white skin, sharp upturned
noses, pointed ears, and no necks stepped out of an open hatch.
Two of them were completely nude, and none of them had any hair
on their bodies. The medical examination the UFOnauts gave this
man differs somewhat from the mainstream of abduction cases in
that it happened in a pasture in broad daylight..."

Can anybody confirm me if this is the same case described under
the title "Dawson encounter" (p. 150) in Ronald Story's "The
Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters"?

Luis R. Gonzalez Manso







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                   Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated

From: Scitt Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:17:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:47:22 -0400
Subject: Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated



Police investigating gnome reports in Ecuador

Police in a town in Ecuador are investigating reports of a
little, green man seen walking down the street.

A number of Quininde residents called police after seeing what
they described as a "gnome" in the town centre.

They all described the creature as being very small, green and
ugly.

Marco Preciado told Diario Extra online: "It was less than three
feet tall and I saw it three times. I tried to follow him but he
disappeared."

Cecilia Cedeno who owns a liquor shop, said: "He appeared in
front of the shop to a group of people. He gave a loud laugh and
ran away."

A police spokesperson said: "People are scared and fascinated by
the story. We are investigating and we believe it is someone
trying to make fun of the whole town."


Source: Ananova.com







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                          Re: 'Frank M'? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:06:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:50:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Maccabee


 >From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >>Subject: 'Frank M'?

 >>Hello All,

 >>Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
 >>M'?

 >>Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The
 >>researchers are Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.


 >Frank M. is a person that the IF (Intruders Foundation)
 >invesitgated, he ia an upstate resident of New York, he was
 >videotaping a UFO when a few moments later he was abducted from
 >the same craft he had been recording Bruce Maccabee had analyzed
 >the tape and have found it to be authentic.....

The videotape analysis is presented at:

http://brumac.8k.com/PeanutUFO/PeanutUFO.html

where the witnesses are referred to as "Fred and Mary."






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   May > May 15

                          Secrecy News -- 05/14/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:06:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:00:37 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/14/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 41
May 14, 2003


**      PENTAGON SEEKS NEW EXEMPTIONS FROM OVERSIGHT
**      POST 9/11 PENTAGON SPENDING UNACCOUNTED FOR
**      ANNUAL REPORT ON ECONOMIC ESPIONAGE
**      RELIANCE ON COMMERCIAL IMAGERY TO GROW
**      A FOIA CASE GOES TO THE SUPREME COURT
**      NSA INFORMATION OPERATIONS
**      KEEP A SECRET, GO TO JAIL
**      NIMA NEWS
**      BLABBERMOUTH NEWS


PENTAGON SEEKS NEW EXEMPTIONS FROM OVERSIGHT

In the name of "transformation," the Department of Defense has
advanced an audacious series of legislative proposals that would
"substantially reduce congressional oversight and public
accountability," four Democratic congressional leaders warned in
a May 13 letter.

The Pentagon seeks the repeal of over 100 reporting and
notification requirements, including essential and widely
utilized reports on cost overruns, technical failures and
schedule delays.

"In addition to the outright repeal of these reporting
requirements, [the DoD proposal includes] a sunset provision
that would eliminate all remaining Defense Department reports
after five years," wrote Reps. Henry Waxman, Ike Skelton, David
Obey and John M. Spratt.

The only exception would be the Secretary of Defense's annual
report to Congress.  "Notably, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld failed
to submit even this report in two out of the last three years."

The Pentagon also seeks wholesale changes in DoD employment
policy that would enable it to waive existing statutory
requirements while curtailing oversight of civil service laws.
  It further proposes significant exemptions from environmental
laws.  And it would collapse government spending on missile
defense into a single budget line item.

"The Department's proposal would reduce oversight of the Missile
Defense Agency's budget and give it unprecedented spending
authority enjoyed by no other federal agency," the congressmen
wrote.

See their May 13 letter to House Speaker Hastert and Minority
Leader Pelosi here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2003/dod051303.html

These DoD proposals "would not be in the interests of ensuring
the financial transparency and oversight of billions of dollars
in weapons systems development and acquisition," wrote Danielle
Brian of the Project on Government Oversight, understating the
matter in a May 2 letter to the House Armed Services Committee:

http://www.pogo.org/p/defense/do-030501-missile.html

Thirty-five of the most important annual reports that the
Pentagon proposes to eliminate were culled from the larger list
and posted by Daniel Cornwall of the Alaska State Library along
with his brief comments here (thanks to PM):

http://daniel.cornwall.home.att.net/DoD_Reports_Concern.html


POST 9/11 PENTAGON SPENDING UNACCOUNTED FOR

One might think that as a matter of good public policy,
oversight would increase as spending increases.  But incredibly,
what is actually happening is closer to the opposite, as
billions of defense dollars vanish into unaccountable thin air.

Writing in Defense Week this week, John Donnelly notes that "In
the year after the Sept. 11 attacks, Congress gave the Pentagon
$28.5 billion in 'emergency-response' money to fight terrorism.
The Pentagon has spent almost all of it. But nothing on the
public record shows in any meaningful way how the money was
actually used. And even confidential reports to congressional
staff about the spending leave defense-budget experts wondering
exactly what was bought in many cases."

See "Key Details Lacking On Post-9/11 Billions" by John M.
Donnelly, Defense Week, May 14, here:

http://www.kingpublishing.com/publications/dw/


ANNUAL REPORT ON ECONOMIC ESPIONAGE

"Some 75 countries -- a mix of rich and poor, high- and low-
tech, friend and foe -- targeted US technologies in 2001 using a
wide range of collection techniques," according to a new "Annual
Report to Congress on Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial
Espionage" prepared by the National Counterintelligence
Executive (NCIX).

Particular targets of foreign espionage included information
technologies, aeronautical systems, sensors and lasers and, in
fact, all eighteen of the technologies on the Defense Department
Militarily Critical Technologies List.

On closer inspection, however, the espionage threat appears
somewhat less ominous.

"The efforts were not, as a rule, directed against the 'crown
jewels' of US technological supremacy.  Instead, much of the
sought after information and technology was dated military-
related or infrastructure-supportive technologies that are no
longer classified and that often have both military and civilian
applications," according to the NCIX annual report, which is the
eighth in a series.

A copy of the 2002 Annual Report to Congress on Foreign Economic
Collection and Industrial Espionage, dated February 2003 but
only published on May 6, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/2002.pdf


RELIANCE ON COMMERCIAL IMAGERY TO GROW

The United States Government will "rely to the maximum practical
extent on U.S. commercial remote sensing space capabilities for
filling imagery and geospatial needs for military, intelligence,
foreign policy, homeland security, and civil users," according
to a new statement of U.S. Commercial Remote Sensing Policy.

The new Policy, approved by the President on April 25, is the
culmination of a review process that was initiated by National
Security Presidential Directive 15 in June 2002.

A fact sheet that describes the Policy is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/remsens.html


A FOIA CASE GOES TO THE SUPREME COURT

A Freedom of Information Act lawsuit seeking disclosure of
graphic crime scene photographs of the death of former White
House Counsel Vince Foster will be heard by the U.S. Supreme
Court next fall.

The photographs have been withheld up to now based on the
privacy interests of the Foster family.  Their disclosure is
sought by Allan J. Favish, formerly associated with conservative
watch dog organizations Judicial Watch and Accuracy in Media.
  The death of Vincent Foster was the focus of discredited
conspiracy theories in some sectors of the political right.

The circumstances of the case are described by the Justice
Department Office of Information and Privacy here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2003foiapost17.htm


NSA INFORMATION OPERATIONS

The "potential role of RF [radio frequency] weapons in IO
[information operations]" will be among the topics discussed at
a June 17-18 conference on National Security Agency Information
Operations, jointly sponsored by NSA and the Association of Old
Crows.

"This is a conference not to be missed for IO professionals or
those in related fields," according to a notice on the Federal
Business Opportunities web site (thanks to MJR).  "The
conference will focus on IO and IO applications that are
critical to the ongoing success of NSA's mission."

"The classification of the conference will be TS/SI/TK, U.S.
ONLY." See:

http://www.iaevents.com/InfoOper03/newinfo.cfm


KEEP A SECRET, GO TO JAIL

It sounds like a spoof, but it's not:

"A former president of the Florida Senate reported to jail
Tuesday for violating the state's open-government 'sunshine'
law, one of the toughest in the nation.

"W.D. Childers ... is the first elected official ever sent to
jail for violating the 1967 law's open-meeting section, records
show. He was sentenced to 60 days."

See "Ex-president of Florida Senate goes to jail for 'sunshine'
violation," Associated Press, May 13:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/13/sunshine.law.ap/


NIMA NEWS

The National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) will be
inelegantly renamed the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency,
to be abbreviated NGA, upon the enactment of the 2004 Defense
Authorization Act (see section 902 of S. 1050).

The latest two issues of Pathfinder, the NIMA public affairs
newsletter, and other recent NIMA releases may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/nima/index.html


BLABBERMOUTH NEWS

Secrecy News was parodied as Blabbermouth News on UFO UpDates, a
mailing list devoted to UFO news and views. See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m10-019.shtml

"I was full of suds when I belched up that bit of foam," the
author amiably advised.



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:40:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:06:43 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:36 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:47:24 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>Anyway, I think that I gave the only scientifically "correct"
 >>answer to Amy's amusing guessing game about the identify of
 >>unexplained objects in the sky. Namely, that without knowledge
 >>of witness testimony as to what the object did or didn't do,
 >>that's all it is: a guessing game.

 >Ah, but Dick, you missed the point of the Pop Quiz. All I asked
 >is could you identify the object just by looking at the images
 >presented. The point being, we must be careful when reviewing
 >alleged images of UFO's and not assume that just because an
 >object looks unusual, it must _be_ anomalous. You may know this
 >but, believe it or not, there _are_ people out there who don't
 >bother to go beyond the mere images in their analyses. There are
 >many web sites on the internet that demonstrate this tendency.

Amy,

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't identify a film or
video image depending on the detail it contains, as I pointed
out. But for unidentified images it requires witness testimony,
which can be and often is reliable and useful; science and other
types of investigation couldn't get very far without it.

 >You are right, it is a guessing game. Even with witness
 >testimony, it's a guessing game. There is no way we can know for
 >sure when someone is telling the absolute truth or not
 >misinterpreting their sighting therefore, with or without
 >photographic images, investigators and researchers must always
 >remain aware of just how little fact they actually have to work
 >with.

So what is the point of your admitted guessing game? To try to
argue that human knowledge is impossible? That's what you seem
to be saying. We have a ton of data to work with by quite
standard scientific methods, as I have extensively reported. I
swore a while back to give up on trying to debate rationally
with you, but let's see if you can stay on point and avoid
persiflage. I'll try for a while to discuss issues with you.

 >>It is all well and good to catalogue and study IFOs as Amy is
 >>doing. All rational students of UFO phenomena have been doing
 >>that for many years, and that is why some people tend to object
 >>to Amy's seemingly didactic approach and semantical quibbling.

 >Dick, this is exciting! Could you please share all the URLs to
 >these IFO databases so that I may link to them in my own
 >Database? If all rational students of UFO phenomena have been
 >compiling IFO databases for many years, I can't wait to see
 >them! So far, I've only found a handful of others who have
 >shared their studies in this area, such as Mr. Tom King, Dr.
 >Maccabee, Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff and Mr. Gary Burton. But I've
 >never found a large collection of IFO studies collected and
 >presented on one web site (except mine).

This comes across as one of those typically sarcastic-sounding
utterances that you seem to excel at. There are (fortunately
and thankfully) lots of good media of record beyond the
internet. Books and articles and columns have been written
partly or almost entirely about IFOs. Both Jenny Randles and I
have commented extensively on IFOs in journals and at symposia.
Is it not a false generalization on your part to suggest that
all "ufologists" (a word that I hate) are equally naive about
interpreting photos? I have expressed strong cautions about it
in both volumes of The UFO Evidence.

 >Some people seem to like my approach, some don't. Same for your
 >work, Dick. That's how this list functions - a little something
 >for everyone.

I assume there is some point to this statement of the obvious,
but it eludes me.

- Dick








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                          Filer's Files #20 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:44:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:13:02 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #20 -- 2003


Filer's Files #20 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
May 14, 2003,  Majorstar@aol.com
Webmaster: Chuck Warren
My website is at:
http://www.nationalufocenter.com/files/2002/index.php

Filer's Files UFO Center Views
Sponsored by: www.filer.unfranchise.com
  WORLDWIDE UFO SIGHTINGS INCREASE

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. Eclipse of the Moon will occur Thursday
evening, Sun is racked by powerful solar flares causing hundreds
of tornados. Aliens may be sending each other secret messages,
Asteroid Connecticut metallic saucer spotted, New Hampshire -
mysterious metal found, Pennsylvania - reflective" white "tube"
flying low, Georgia - Daylight disk, Florida - an orange ball,
Illinois - two flying triangles spotted, Wisconsin - five small
flickering lights, Oklahoma possible missing time, Idaho - aqua
blue sphere with a long trail shot across sky, California- New
technology fly by, Washington - flying triangle and lights,
Canada - V shaped object and truck size lights, Ireland - bright
lights, England - UFO or perhaps a kite? Netherlands - flying
triangle, Ukraine - possible base as UFO wave over Crimea
continues, India - light with long tail, and circular object
over New Zealand. Ancient ruins of Kadath allegedly found in
Antarctica?

ECLIPSE OF THE MOON

On Thursday evening, May 15th, there will be a total eclipse of
the Moon. It begins at 10:03 PM (EDT) when the Moon first enters
the edge of the Earth's shadow, and the Earth shadow gradually
covers the Moon and at 11:14 PM, totality begins. The Moon
starts to come out of the shadow at 12:06 AM, when totality ends
and it leaves the Earth's shadow at 1:17 AM, when the eclipse
finally ends. Mid-eclipse is at 11:40 PM and while totally
eclipsed, the Moon will be red in color. All you need to view it
is the unaided eye or a pair of binoculars. This should be an
awesome sight if it's clear! Lunar Eclipse -
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/12may_lunareclipse.htm +

ALIENS MAY BE SENDING EACH OTHER SECRET MESSAGES

Two scientists have come up with a possible solution to the
long-standing puzzle of why, if alien civilizations are out
there, no one has ever picked up signals from them. Their
signals are buried in background noise. The Fermium paradox,
first posed by the physicist Enrico Fermi, is still one of the
strongest arguments against the existence of intelligent aliens.
But Walter Simmons and Sandip Pakvasa, from the University of
Hawaii at Manoa, have worked out how the aliens could be hiding.
First the signaller splits the message into two parts, so that
its photons are sent in opposite directions to mirrors far from
the home planet. The mirrors redirect the signals to the
intended receiver, who recombines the photons to reconstruct the
message. Neither the intended receiver nor any eavesdropper
would be able to locate the home planet of the sender. Also, it
would be impossible to detect the message at all without
extremely sophisticated technology, New Scientist magazine
reported. To recombine the beams and recreate the message you
would need to detect the arrival time of the photons extremely
accurately to identify pairs of photons split by the sender. Mr.
Simmons said, "Such photons are distinguishable from the
background of stellar photons because they arrive very close
together in time. But any eavesdropper, like us, might not
realize this and see only the background." Thanks to The Western
Mail - The National Newspaper Of Wales [
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/ ]http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/

EXTREME WEATHER ON EARTH CAUSED BY SUNSPOTS?

The most ever devastating tornados have been reported across the
US that may be in part due to the strong sunspot activity with
66 already reported this year. For the third month in a row,
high-latitude observers have spotted auroras triggered by solar
wind streams flowing from coronal holes on the Sun. Our Earth's
magnetic field was buffeted by solar wind gusts on May 1st and
May 7th-9th, that may be effecting our weather. Heavy Sunspot
activity happens when energy stored in twisted magnetic fields
(usually above sunspots) is suddenly released. Flares produce a
burst of radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum, from
radio waves to x-rays and gamma-rays. A flare is defined as a
sudden, rapid, and intense variation in brightness. A solar
flare occurs when magnetic energy that has built up in the solar
atmosphere is suddenly released. Radiation is emitted across
virtually the entire electromagnetic spectrum, from radio waves
at the long wavelength end, through optical emission to x-rays
and gamma rays at the short wavelength end. The amount of energy
released is the equivalent of millions of 100-megaton hydrogen
bombs exploding at the same time! Scientists classify solar
flares according to their x-ray brightness in the wavelength
range 1 to 8 Angstroms. There are 3 categories: X-class flares
are big; they are major events that can trigger planet-wide
radio blackouts and long-lasting radiation storms. M-class
flares are medium-sized; they generally cause brief radio
blackouts that affect Earth's polar regions. Minor radiation
storms sometimes follow an M-class flare. Compared to X- and M-
class events, C-class flares are small with few noticeablen
consequences here on Earth. Geomagnetic storms caused by the
sunspots can cause significant disturbances in Earth's magnetic
field. During the recent activity there have been bright Auroras
over the Antarctic lighting up the night skies. Thanks to
space.com and NASA

PENNSYLVANIA REFLECTIVE" WHITE "TUBE" FLYING LOW

POTTSTOWN -- The witness was driving on Highway 422 west on May
1, 2003, when he noticed a reflective" white "tube" flying 100
feet or so under a low flying passenger plane during daylight at
1:30 PM. The witness states, "The passenger jet had red and
white paint with white words, that caught my attention, because
it was flying lower than usual." I stopped my car in middle of
the intersection when I saw a sunlight glint moving about 100
ft. underneath the jet. A "reflection" followed exactly with the
jet but it was 1/5th the size. The best I can say it was either
a "steel pipe" shape or tube. Absolutely stunning, it moved with
the jet perfectly timed but definitely an object, as it moved it
stopped reflecting the sun, and I saw it had white color, then
it faded away. Cars honking behind me made me move. I pulled
into a parking lot and could see the passenger jet, but not the
object. I watched for about 30 seconds. It was broad daylight,
great visibility that dnay. I stared again and again to try and
make out more, but it was mostly a bright "reflection," like
shiny metal. The object seemed white when the reflection of the
sun died down. It was about the size of an automobile in
relation to the jet.

ST. CLAIR - The witness reported seeing a bright light hovering
above on May 3, 2003, at 2:45 AM, and states, "Traveling to work
in my car I noticed a greenish-blue light at the altitude of a
small aircraft that appeared to be hovering or moving very
slowly above a nearby treeline." As I slowed to view the object,
it shot away to the east at high speed. Thanks to Peter
Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/ ]www.UFOCENTER.com

NEW HAMPSHIRE - MYSTERIOUS METAL FOUND

CONCORD MONITOR - The newspaper reports, "Hope MacDonald awoke
to a loud bang and a bright light. The next day, her tenant
found a small piece of charred metal that reeked of fuel and was
covered in more than an inch of gob. The noise was enough to
alarm MacDonald and scare her cat off the bed. The metal was
enough to prompt her to call her son, a state trooper, who then
called the Federal Aviation Administration. The metal appears to
be from a snowmobile, said Jim Peters, a spokesman for the FAA,
adding that MacDonald's home is near a trail. That's a lie,"
said MacDonald. "There's no trail near my house." MacDonald
wants to make two things clear about the incident: She's not
crazy, and she knows what she saw. "It was about 11:30 at night
and something banged the back of the house. At the same time,
there was the brightest light I've ever seen in my life. "I had
to shut my eyes but as quickly as the sound and light came, it
went," she said. Candy Hovey, who lives in the lower level of
MacDonald's two-story chalet, found a 4 by 7 inch piece of metal
on the lawn the next day. "I didn't see or hear anything," She
said. "But it wasn't there the day before." Hovey said the metal
had a very strong fuel smell and it looked charred. "If you
touched it with your hand, you'd get ash on it." She said. The
ground beneath the metal appeared unharmed. FAA safety inspector
Sylvester Dye went to MacDonald's home and took the metal for
testing shortly after she reported the incident. MacDonald said
she initially thought the metal may have been "space junk." And
she made a point of asking Dye if it could be just that. (Dye)
knew it wasn't from an airplane," she said. "I asked him if it
could have been from the shuttle, and he just shrugged his
shoulders. There's so much stuff flying around up there." Dye
told MacDonald the metal couldn't be from a plane because it
appeared to have been welded onto something, she said. "There
were no planes around that night either," she said. Her second-
floor bedroom is high enough off the ground so that a passing
snow machine or vehicle most likely would not have thrown a
piece of metal near her window, she said. "There was no snow in
the yard at the time," I just think they (FAA inspectors) don't
know what it is and they're passing the buck. But I'm sure it's
not from a snow machine.  Thanks to Rebecca Tsaros
rtsaros@cmonitor.com  CONCORD MONITOR 5/3/03

GEORGIA DAYLIGHT DISK

ATLANTA -- The saucer was flying south, parallel to I-75 While
riding north through Atlanta on I-75, on April 26, 2003. I
noticed an object just below the clouds and flying south at 5
PM. At first I though it was a plane until it rotated and it did
not have wings that I could see. Having observed planes flying
into the Atlanta airport all afternoon, this object stood out
because of the altitude it was flying, and its size, which was
smaller than a plane would have been. After observing this for
thirty seconds, it went west, and that was the last I saw of it.
Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]www.UFOCENTER.com

FLORIDA - AN ORANGE BALL

CHOCTAWHATCHEE BAY, IN WALTON COUNTY -- I was facing north
looking at Legion Park on Choctawhatchee Bay on April 26, 2003.
There is a security light in the park that has a bluish/white
light on a telephone pole and almost directly over the security
light was an orange ball. The orange ball was just slightly
larger than the security light but much further away at 8:35 PM.
It appeared to be over the middle of the bay. I watched it for
about five minutes during which time it did not move. It was
much larger than a planet or star but not nearly as lnarge as a
full moon would have appeared that close to the horizon. It did
not appear to be a flare as it was stationary in the sky and it
did not appear to be burning. I went inside to get my wife and
when I returned it was gone. [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]www.UFOCENTER.com

ILLINOIS - IT WAS A VERY BRIGHT FLYING TRIANGLE

DES PLAINES -- The witness reports seeing a large object in the
night skies April 28, 2003, on a humid and hot clear night near
Elk Grove. He explains, "The object was bright, big, triangular
and it came real close to me and after about 20 seconds it just
disappeared at 10:30 PM." My friend, my brother and my two
sisters saw it as it took off real fast." It flew northeast into
a clear sky. Ten minutes later it came back once again and it
was the same thing, but now there were two flying triangles. We
got a better look the second time and it appeared to me as a UFO
or an alien type object. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]www.UFOCENTER.com

WISCONSIN - FIVE SMALL FLICKERING LIGHTS

MILWAUKEE -- On May 1, 2003, at 2 AM, the witness reports seeing
a white flicker in the sky, then another, and another till there
where five flickering lights. They seemed to have made a box
with one craft on the outside moving away. Then the others
followed. The remaining four lights shined unsteadily at a half
second pace simultaneously and then came together in a line.
They moved on the same path as the first light and they all
slowly departed. As they left a bluish color replaced the white
light. Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]www.UFOCENTER.com

OKLAHOMA POSSIBLE MISSING TIME

BESSIE -- Jim Hickman writes, I got a call on Wednesday, May 7,
2003, from a teacher in the town of Bessie, stating one of his
students had see a very bright light, then a big flash, and then
reported missing time. Susan will do the investigation and
forward the report to me, I will send it to you. Thanks to Jim
Hickman MUFON

IDAHO - AQUA BLUE SPHERE

SANDPOINT -- While riding my motorcycle north toward Sandpoint
on Highway 95 at 11:45 PM, on April 23, 2003, a very bright,
aqua colored, round object with an extremely long trail caught
my attention, as it came across the sky traveling from east to
west and downward in a fashion that suggested it would impact
the ground. I expected to see a flash or perhaps feel a jolt
from the event but neither occurred. It was simply there and
gone. The color was quite remarkable and unlike anything I have
ever witnessed.

CALIFORNIA NEW TECHNOLOGY FLY BY

NEWARK -- The witness claims, "Never saw anything like it - if
it's military (ours) its decades ahead of "known" technology!"
The witness was taking his dog for a walk at 9:04 P.M. on April
24, 2003, when he saw a bird flying overhead. I looked directly
at the object and thought that's not a bird its a hang glider
because of it's altitude, shape, and lack of noise. Then I
said," Oh my God, what the heck IS that?" I watched the object,
perfectly focused for about 6 seconds before it flew into some
clouds. I followed the path of the object hoping it would hold
it's course. I thought I saw it circle tightly and turn towards
the east. Then four planes came out of no where and converged on
the mountains east of my house; where the object headed. Then,
what I thought were two F-16? jets headed over towards my
direction. They made very little noise, but I could still hear
the jets. I grabbed the binoculars and ran back outside as my
wife came out for a short look, but went back in because it was
too cold for her. I watched the sky intensely and watched for
the craft. I ran into the garage, grabbed the ladder and climbed
onto the roof. There were a lot of aircraft over the mountain
range. Two passenger jets went over head slightly west of me The
object had now flown over the mountain range and disappeared. .

BUENA PARK -- On May 1, 2003, the witness who has considerable
technical background noticed round spheres of light above his
home at 10: 42 PM. He states, "There were four spheres of light
that were very noticeable. They were each about two to three
feet in size. The one sphere of light was west of me where I
stood. The other two spheres of light were north of me. The last
sphere of light was straight above my head and my home. The four
spheres of light were white in color and I heard beeping sounds
from one of the spheres. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]www.UFOCENTER.com

WASHINGTON - FLYING TRIANGLE AND LIGHTS

WAUCONDA -- On May 1, 2003, the witness who lives in a very
rural area with no city lights nearby stepped out of the back
door and observed a circular blue-white light about 3" in
diameter at arm's length coming from the north. It was heading
toward the southeast at about satellite speed at 10: 45 PM. When
I first saw the object it was about 20 degrees elevation in the
north. The object became gradually smaller as it proceeded
across the sky until in the southeastern sky at about 70 degrees
elevation it instantly returned to a 3" size at arm's length
again and shot off.

WEST SEATTLE -- A married couple were walking into their house
on May 1, 2003, when something caught the wife's peripheral
vision at 10 PM. She looked up and said something like "What the
hell is that?" She states, "A triangular craft was moving across
the sky above us at an altitude similar to airplanes in this
part of the city near Boeing field, not far from SeaTac
Airport." It had a light at each of the points that was a dim
orange and the lights seemed striped rather than solid. The
craft was completelny silent. We watched it fly in a
northeasterly direction until it encountered the city light
reflection in the sky and we could no longer see it. Our dog was
trembling and became lethargic and lost his balance.

The witness sent an MS Paint image of the husband's
recollection. I recall big, round lights, while he recalls
trapezium-shaped lights and wings. I recall the round lights, as
I said, and drew the wings as round, although I'm not sure they
were. They were definitely not pointed; we both recall the
corners were blunt or rounded. [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]www.UFOCENTER.com

CANADA - RED LIGHT AND BRIGHT WHITE FLASH

HALIFAX INVESTIGATION - Sydnie reports, "Four of us were outside
as it was dusk and just getting dark when we saw the UFO that
was about the size of a pea. " There were no lights on the
object (it was completely blank). There was a little wind, and
it only passed through one misty cloud, other than that the
weather was warm. It was sort of moving like an arrow through
the sky. It was flying towards Sherwater Air Base and it took
three or four minutes to go across the sky. Thanks to Sydnie

CHILLIWACK, BC - The Mother was driving her son home from work
on May 1, 2003, when they saw a red flashing light just to the
left of the mountains in the west. It was flashing consistently
and sitting in one spot. The son says, "I told my mother to stop
the car as we were on a back road that had little traffic and I
rolled down my window and looked at the strange red light." At
10:30 PM, we noticed that it would move south horizontally in
little spurts, but mostly stayed in one spot. We drove home and
could just see it over the roof of a house. I noticed the light
drop down a bit, so I stood up a bit straighter, but the light
dropped down again. I moved over to where my Mom was standing,
and we observed it clearly. It was staying in one place again.
Suddenly a bright flash of light came from about the same place
I'd initially seen the red light. It happened again a few
seconds later, closer to the location of the red light that was
now fading, and the flashing wasn't as brilliant. After fifteen
minutes of viewing I went inside.  [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]www.UFOCENTER.com

IRELAND - VERY BRIGHT LIGHT SEEN

WATERFORD -- A bright light appeared in the sky on April 28,
2003, above the Waterford area. It was too early in the evening
to be a star, but that's exactly what it looked like. At first I
thought it was a reflection of an aircraft as it was a bright
evening but it suddenly disappeared and a minute later
reappeared in a slightly different location. There were some
clouds around but not in this area of the sky. It was moving in
a westerly direction at 7 PM.

ENGLAND UFO OR PERHAPS A KITE?

LINCOLN -- On April 22, 2003, around 4 PM, the witness was
skating outside the Lincolnshire College and noticed a small dot
in the sky above the South Common. He states, "I looked at the
object thinking that it was a distant approaching plane, but the
object stayed stationary and moved side ways and upwards like no
other aircraft I have seen." My friends who were also with me
saw this object, but they thought it was a kite, but the object
was about half a mile away and was flying too high to be a kite.
The object stayed there for about 15 minutes.  [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]www.UFOCENTER.com

NETHERLANDS - FLYING TRIANGLE

ALMERE -- Two witnesses spotted a triangular shaped object
flying over the highway on May 3, 2003. The witness reports, "At
12:30 AM, I was driving my car north with my brother when I
noticed a police car with lights coming from the side lane, so I
changed lanes and looked in my rearview mirror and saw two red
lights in a horizontal line flying southwest across the
highway." A second later there was a third light, which was
flashing white/green. That is when I realized the craft had a
triangle shape. I shouted to my brother that there was a UFO.
The craft hovered over the highway. The red lights were not
flashing. It hung over an open field for a minute and than sped
off. I got off the highway and started following it. I stopped
the car and got the camera out and we started recording for 20
seconds, but it was already far away. It shows one red light as
a dot in the night sky and no sound. We knew it had to be a UFO
because of the shape of it.  [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]www.UFOCENTER.com

UKRAINE - UFO HOTSPOT CONTINUES

SIMFEROPOL' -- Anton Anfalov, Ukrainian UFO Association writes,
"On Saturday, April 30, 2003, at 8:45 PM, while standing on the
Lenin Square and talking with my friend, Mr.V. Zdorov, we
noticed several bright flashes of white-silver and of ruby red
colors to the northeast. This was definitely neither airplane
nor satellite, because the flashes were short, stationary, and
with a big time lag (2-5 minutes) between them indicating that
the flashes were from a hovering object.

CRIMEA -- New UFOs were observed over the Crimean peninsula,
south of Ukraine, on Monday, May 5, 2003, starting from 12:30 AM
until 3 PM. A large strange and definitely outlined lens-shaped
cloud hovered over Chatyrdag Mountain and plateau south of
Simferopol.' The large cloud was present in an almost cloudless
sky. Despite the laws of atmospheric circulation, this cloud had
a definitely outlined form and shape for over two hours DESPITE
THE WIND. This was noticed by many local residents of
Simferopol', and Anton photographed these strange clouds. The
clear impression was that this was just camouflaged hovering
UFO, no less than 50 meters in diameter.

Simferopol' -- On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 9:20 PM a UFO was
observed again over flying south over Mrs. Lenura Azizova house
at 13 West Street. Like on April 23, it was moving in a zigzag
trajectory without any sound. The six cornered in shape UFO had
a clearly visible single bright red blinking light, but not like
an airplane, that changed color to brighter white. The
impression was that the first red light was a navigation light
and the bigger white light was the shining plasma envelope
around the alien craft on a standard route to underwater alien
base in the center of the Black Sea.

ANTON ANFALOV writes, "Crimea is a " UFO hot spot." There are
frequent sightings of craft leaving and entering the Black Sea
about 150 km south of Foros, between Crimea and Turkey. We have
contacted several remote viewers who have used their talents to
penetrate this base. The remote viewers have observed a complex
of watertight underground compartments, hangars and tunnels
built inside the rock using some natural caves, in the depths of
the Black Sea that perfectly hides the alien activity. This is
confirmed by constant observations of fiery globes descending
and ascending out of the sea. The base has two basic openings
that are connected by a complicated system of tunnels. Remote
viewers observed the aliens are involved in some kind of mining,
manufacturing operations, repair and technical examinations of
their crafts. They supposedly produce trans-uranium fuel from
depths of the Earth for their engines.  Thanks to Anton Anfalov,
Ukrainian UFO Association an@crimea.com

INDIA - UNKNOWN OBJECT WITH A LONG TRAIL

CHANDIGARH -- On April 23, 2003, at 6 AM, I saw an object
appearing from the east and moving towards the north. it had a
long whitish trail behind it. ((NUFORC Note: Description by
witness is not inconsistent with a contrail behind a high-
altitude aircraft, but we do not know what the witness observed.
PD))

NEW ZEALAND CIRCULAR OBJECT

TAURANGA -- On Christmas morning 2002, at 4:50 AM, near dawn
with a very clear sky, Mr. A. Thompson witnessed a circular
object with blue, silver and white pulsating lights. It was
flying at 12,000 feet and was observed for about 12 minutes from
an elevated rural location. The object moved along coast a short
way towards Papamoa, turned back towards Tauranga then headed
out to sea. Mr. Thompson remarks how clear the object was and
the lack of sound in the stillness of the early morning.

RUINS OF KADATH ALLEGEDLY FOUND IN ANTARCTICA?

According to Joseph Trainor, editor of UFO Roundup, "A
California TV crew missing since November 2002, a video they
left behind and a mission by US Navy SEALs are the key elements
in a story that claims extensive prehistoric ruins have been
found under the ice of Antarctica. "The US government said it
will seek to block the airing of a video found by Navy rescuers
in Antarctica that purportedly reveals that a massive
archaeological dig is underway two miles beneath the ice."
"AtlantisTV stressed that the company's primary concern is for
the safety and welfare of the missing crew, but they will
'vigorously oppose' any attempts to 'censor material that is
clearly in the public domain.' The video is the property of
AtlantisTV. Two Navy officers who saw the tape said it showed
spectacular ruins. Officials of the U.S. Naval Support Task
Force, Antarctica deny the story or the possession of any video
shot by the missing AtlantisTV crew."

Science fiction author Howard Phillips Lovecraft (1890-1937)
claimed in several stories that a prehistoric city existed in
Antarctica called "Kadath of the Cold Waste." Lovecraft
described its discovery in his novel "At the Mountains of
Madness," written in 1931. Incredibly, one of his passages is a
precise description of a scene in the AtlantisTV video.
Lovecraft wrote, "But the salient object of the place was the
titanic stone ramp, which, eluding the archways by a sharp turn
outward into the open floor, wound spirally up the stupendous
cylindrical wall like an inside counterpart of those once
climbing outside the monstrous towers or ziggurats of ancient
Babylon...The thing was excellently preserved up to the present
top of the tower-- a highly remarkable circumstance in view of
its exposure-- and its shelter had done much to protect the
bizarre and dinsturbing cosmic sculptures on the walls." "As we
stepped out into the awesome half-daylight of this monstrous
cylinder-bottom--fifty million years old, and without doubt the
most primal ancient structure ever to meet our eyes." "According
to the sculptures, the original tower had stood in the center of
an immense circular plaza; and had been perhaps 500 or 600 feet
high, with tiers of horizontal discs near the top and a row of
needle-like spires along the upper rim." Thanks to UFO ROUNDUP
Vol. 8, #19 5/14, Joseph Trainor [
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ ]http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/
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MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
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questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. "The MUFON
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(303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer www.filer.unfranchise.com

WHAT TO KNOW WHEN HIRING A REAL ESTATE AGENT! WHAT YOU SHOULD
KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE!

Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help your
buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me
at  Majorstar@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership. "The MUFON Journal is now
accepting qualified advertising, please call 1 (303) 932-7709
for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer www.filer.unfranchise.com


Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 15

                           Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry

From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:26:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:19:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:32:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >>>Subject: 'Frank M'?


 >What does 'authentic' mean? That it was an alien spaceship?

 >Ian Rogers

Ian;

It means that Bruce had found the video tape to be genuine and
could not prove it a hoax.

L&L
Louise
--
Para-Discuss List http://groups.yahoo.com/group/para-discuss
UFO Casebook - Forum  http://ufocasebook.conforums.com
World Of The Strange  http://www.worldofthestrange.com   (Were Back)






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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:04:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:24:00 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:57:32 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:59:09 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 03:31:17 -0500
 >>>>Subject: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1
 >>>>IFOs 101 - Pop Quiz Answer

 >>>>For those who thought the object was a Mylar balloon,
 >>>>congratulations - you get an "A".

<snip>

Hello again Amy,

Something has come to my attention. Originally, I wrote:

 >>>>Contact Tommy King or Bruce Maccabee privately and ask them for
 >>>>their permission to use some examples of the many
 >>>>_genuinely_anomalous_ aerial objects that they have archived at
 >>>>their respective web sites.

You responded:

 >>>I've already contacted both gentlemen.

Your reply gives the casual reader the false impression that you
contacted Tommy King and Bruce Maccabee in 'response' to my
recent suggestion. At least that was the impression that I got.
Tommy King informs me that you contacted him more than a half a
year ago on an entirely different matter and that you refused to
follow-up on some evidence he was trying to present to you. (?)

That aside for the moment, you should have made it clear to me
and other List readers that you had not complied (recently) with
the suggestion that I made. Your response to me (above) gives
the impression that you contacted both gentlemen in regard to
our recent discussion.

Not true.

Now, why does someone who claims to be conducting honest and
open research/inquiry refuse to check out material that is being
offered/proffered? Tom King was ready and willing to provide you
with information/data about the case/video you had inquired
about. You refused to look at it or follow up on it in favor of
following your own 'pre-formed' conclusions about it. The man
offered you relevant material that he considered to be evidence
that contradicted your conclusions. Yet you didn't follow up on
it, or even look at it. What kind of 'research' is that?

You wrote to me:

 >I do not deceive, I fight deception. What do you do?

I'd like to turn that question around (in the light of the new
information I have acquired above) and ask you the same thing.

"What do _you_ do?"

Writing a book? Is there something you need to prove?


Respectfully,

John Velez








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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:45:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:29:55 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:51:15 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:33:13 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>The reason why I invested in expensive photo equipment was
 >>because I agreed with many people that anecdotal reports are
 >>just not enough. I figured if I had photos and video to back up
 >>my sighting reports that it would help to make the testimony
 >>more credible. But no. After going through all the expense and
 >>trouble of recording my sightings the bar is raised once again
 >>and I am told that pictures and video don't mean anything
 >>because they can be faked.

 >>Horse players have a saying... "I can't win for losing." That's
 >>the case for anyone who dares to try to prove that they have
 >>seen a UFO. But hey, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. It
 >>is only in response to the dictates of my own conscience that I
 >>participate in any public forums at all.

Hello Ian,

In the following you respond to a statement I made which you
did not include in the quoted material above.

 >Again, John, you assume that skeptics would not be pleased by a
 >White House landing, because we would just "raise the bar,"
 >citing that we need more evidence.

In my original post I was very careful to say that 'some' skeptics
react thus and so. I even put little quote marks around the word
'some' in order to emphasize it. How could you have missed it?

I rarely if ever make blanket statements when it comes to people,
Ian. And, I haven't 'assumed' that 'some' skeptics would not be
satisfied with a landing on the white house lawn. It is a statement
of fact.

There are people out there whose minds are so closed to the idea
of there being any other life forms in the universe (besides us)
or that those life forms may be studying the Earth and its
inhabitants, that they would sooner believe such a landing to be
a Hollywood stunt than a genuine event. Don't kid yourself, there
_are_ people with such narrow, limited, closed minds.

I'm glad to hear that you are not among them. But please, don't
attribute statements to me that I have not made. (Don't presume
to put words in my mouth.)

 >How can you say it's aliens when it could be something natural that
 >we've never seen yet?

I never said/claimed any such thing.

Are you reading what I actually wrote or what you'd like hear?
Re-read both of my original posts to Amy. If I attribute
anything to aliens anywhere in those posts I challenge you to
produce the direct quotations.

Again, if you're going to respond to one or more of my posts,
how about responding to what I _actually_said_ rather than what
you'd like to think I said.

 >That alone should preclude the cry of 'Aliens!'

I "_cried_ aliens!"? Where? Man, you have some kind of vivid
imagination!

 >Just because our experts can't explain what they see
 >isn't really a good reason to label something an alien ship.

Please show me _anywhere_ in my posts where I have done
that. If you can't, I expect a public apology for your incessant
creation of imaginary statements that you _falsely_ attribute
to me. Again... quit putting words in my mouth. Either address
something I have actually said or don't bother responding at all.

 >So what am I trying to say?

Apparently a whole bunch of stuff that you've pulled out of thin
air and that you're trying to attribute to me.

 >I guess I'll just have to live with myself, somehow!

I guess so. Sounds like it must be hard for you sometimes eh?

 >I'm not trying to attack you, John,

No, not at all. You're just trying to stuff every cliche that
'some' skeptics attribute to 'true believers' down _my_ throat.
In an effort to do what? Make yourself look good? Or to make me
look like a gullible boob? Never mind. Rhetorical question.

 >I'm here because I'm genuinely curious.

Really? You could have fooled me! Sounds like you've got your
mind made up about a great many things. Including several
imaginary ones. I would like an on-List apology for all the
completely made-up crap that you've tried to lay at my doorstep,
Ian.


John Velez, In my own words.








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   May > May 15

             Mack/Jamieson 'Shamanic Journeys & UFO Encounters'

From: Will Beuche - Center for Psychology & Social Change
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:49:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:34:47 -0400
Subject: Mack/Jamieson 'Shamanic Journeys & UFO Encounters'


Center for Psychology & Social Change

This journal is not widely known, so we're presenting this blurb
as an FYI:

A new 12-page article written collaboratively by Dr. John Mack
and Sue Jamieson has been published in Shamanism: the Journal of
the Foundation for Shamanic Studies. This article will not
appear online.

Shamanic Journeys and UFO Encounters:
A Consideration of Two Avenues to an Expanded Reality

ABSTRACT -- Shamanism and the study of what we in our Western
culture call UFO "abductions" or "encounters" both involve other
worlds with phenomenological differences and similarities.  A
comparative study of these has the potential to augment,
advance, and expand our understanding of "reality."  With this
end in view, we examine the similarities and differences between
shamanic journeys and UFO encounters. Similarities (e.g. non-
ordinary reality, altered space and time, other "beings",
reports of flying, moving through tunnels, light, healings, and
other world families) exist between the essential reality of
shamanic practices and journeys and UFO encounters. There are
noticeable experiential differences especially with respect to
"agency" in relation to the experience, the realm in which the
experience is perceived to occur, and in the resultant physical
and emotional trauma. There are circumstances within both
experiences in which differences and similarities overlap and
are difficult to distinguish.

Many indigenous shamans and medicine people acknowledge UFO
encounters as part of their reality and speak easily of myths
and legends telling of peoples that come from the sky or the
stars. Indigenous acknowledgments, coupled with collections of
thousands of reports from experiencers, seem to be increasing
public awareness and acceptance of the reality of the phenomenon
within our own society. Mutual exploration of shamanism and the
UFO encounter phenomenon -- mapping the non-ordinary states of
consciousness and realities -- can help us to expand the current
paradigm of reality to include the full range of human
experience.

Bringing the two studies together may serve to complement our
understanding of the complex interplay of inner and outer
reality, the relations of spirit to matter, and the possible
existence of other physical domains and principles.

The current issue of Shamanism (vol. 16, no. 1) can be ordered
directly from the Foundation for Shamanic Studies. Info is
available:

http://centerchange.org/center/center_news.asp?id=170



[Preemptive msg for Richard Hall: We'll just have to agree to
  disagree.]








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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:13:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:48:15 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hatch


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:36 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:47:24 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>It is all well and good to catalogue and study IFOs as Amy is
 >>doing. All rational students of UFO phenomena have been doing
 >>that for many years, and that is why some people tend to object
 >>to Amy's seemingly didactic approach and semantical quibbling.

 >Dick, this is exciting! Could you please share all the URLs to
 >these IFO databases so that I may link to them in my own
 >Database? If all rational students of UFO phenomena have been
 >compiling IFO databases for many years, I can't wait to see
 >them! So far, I've only found a handful of others who have
 >shared their studies in this area, such as Mr. Tom King, Dr.
 >Maccabee, Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff and Mr. Gary Burton. But I've
 >never found a large collection of IFO studies collected and
 >presented on one web site (except mine).

 >Some people seem to like my approach, some don't. Same for your
 >work, Dick. That's how this list functions - a little something
 >for everyone.


Hello Amy, Dick:

If I understand Dick properly (stop me if I don't) he was saying
that the saner UFO students have long noted IFOs. I'm sure he
never meant to imply that they all have websites up full of
them.  I would have written "and/or" in his sentence above to
clarify that.

Relatively few put up web pages of IFOs, even those of us who
recognize them as such,  preferring to concentrate on the
stranger cases which do exist in the literature.

I don't know how large 'large' is, but there are over 100
discredited sightings listed on this page of mine:

http://www.larryhatch.net/DISCRED.html

As noted up top:

"This list is NOT intended to be comprehensive, a lifetime of
  work would not be enough.  Nor is this a list of junk sightings,
  night-lights, flying triangles by the score, every balloon since
  Montgolfier etc. .. clearly a waste of bandwidth. "

In short, I concentrated on well known cases that waste lots of
people's time.  These are not my studies, just a listing of the
findings of others who did the real leg-work.  Credits and a few
links appear on the page.


Best wishes

- Larry







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                        Re: Taken For A Ride - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:57:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:50:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Taken For A Ride - Velez


 >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:21:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: Taken For A Ride

 >>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:01:08 EDT
 >>Subject: Taken For A Ride

 >>Source: The Herald Sun - Melbourne, Australia

 >>http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6411075%255E11869,0
0.html

 ><snip>

 >>HOW many times have you read about someone's purported alien
 >>abduction and yearned for your turn?

 >>When, you secretly ask yourself, will your mothership come in?
 >>But sooner or later you're going to have to face the truth: you
 >>may not be abductee material and, frankly, even if you are, you
 >>probably won't remember the experience.

 >>A simpler, more effective alternative is to pay someone to dress
 >>up like an alien and pretend to abduct you. That way you'll be
 >>able to remember and relish every last poke and prod for years
 >>to come.

 >>We kid you not, according to the barmy folks at New York-based
 >>Alien Abductions Incorporated, plenty of people (they don't say
 >>how many, naturally) pay to be abducted each year.

 ><snip>

 >I recalled reading something very similar not too long ago so
 >after a quick Internet search I think I found the story about
 >another New York-based company that also arranges kidnapping and
 >abduction experiences for a fee that I was looking for. I don't
 >think we have anything like this in Canada yet but I would not
 >be surprised if franchises are available.

 >http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/personalities/designer_kidnappings.shtm
>l

 >Designer Kidnappings
 >Crissa-Jean Chappell, 21 January 2003

 >It begins with a list of your greatest fears. For a few thousand
 >dollars, Brock Enright's personalized kidnapping service will
 >make them come true.

 ><snip>

 >The kidnappings often take place on Manhattan's streets in broad
 >daylight, yet nobody has bothered to intervene on a victim's
 >behalf. Because Enright and his masked conspirators are
 >videotaping the performance, many people mistake the organized
 >chaos for a reality TV show. Enright says, "We've done things
 >very close to police and they have no clue it's even happening."


Hi Nick,

Mac Tonnies is correct. The Alien Abduction site is a spoof. And
a well written, clever one it is too! I laughed my ass off.

If we start taking all this stuff seriously, especially material
that is intended to be satirical/humorous, then we are the ones
who need help. Not the people who create these sites.

It's funny stuff. Read it and laugh. Then forget it. I think
that is what it was intended for in the first place. For laughs.


Regards,

John Velez







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                          DOI Seek More Appeal Time

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:12:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:56:00 -0400
Subject: DOI Seek More Appeal Time


TO: Larry W. Bryant

FROM: William W. Wolf (FOIA Appeals Officer for Dept. of the
       Interior)

DATE: May 12, 2003

Dear Mr. Bryant:

This concerns your April 12, 2003, Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) appeal (FOIA 2003-144), which was received in this Office
on April 14, 2003. Your FOIA appeal pertains to the April 4,
2003, partial denial on the basis of exemption (3) of the FOIA,
of your November 7, 2002, FOIA request to the Bureau of Land
Management, New Mexico State Office (BLM). In your FOIA
request, you sought copies of documents pertaining to the
Standard Archeological Plan for the excavation of the Roswell
UFO-crash-landing debris field (designated as NM site No.
1000000). Specifically, BLM withheld the site location
information under the provisions of the National Historic
Preservation Act Amendments of 1980 (16 U.S.C. 470w-3).

Your appeal is with the Office of the Solicitor for legal
review. The extraordinarily large number of FOIA appeals that
the Department has received has created a heavy workload which
will delay the Department's response to your appeal. Please be
assured that the Department will make every effort to provide
you with a determination on your appeal as soon as possible. If
you have any questions regarding this legal review, you may
contact Ms. Darrel Strayhorn in SOL at (202) 208-5216.

You have a right to treat the delay in responding to your appeal
as a final denial of your request and to seek judicial review in
the United States District Court for the District in which you
reside or have your principal place of business, the District in
which the records subject to your appeal are located, or the
United States District Court for the District of Columbia.
  However, the Department hopes that you will defer action until
a substantive decision has been reached on your appeal.

The Department regrets the delay and appreciates your
consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,

William W. Wolf


[LWB Note: Having expected the "Department" to reject my appeal
re the exact location of the Roswell dig, this plea from Wolf
comes as no surprise. But if they intend to sit on their hands
in the processing of my appeal No. 2003-151 (by which I contest
their labeling me a non-journalist in my quest for a records-
  search-fee waiver), you can expect me not to sit on mine. Delay
of their "determination" on the latter appeal will adversely
affect my efficacy in current/future FOIA actions, and also will
chill my First Amendment freedom from such stonewalling -- both
unacceptable prospects subject to prompt judicial review/remedy.
Of course, if the delay on Appeal No. 2003-144 still exists at
month's end, that fact will be incorporated as Count No. 1 of a
two-count complaint to be filed as soon as possible thereafter.]








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                  Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:39:30 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:01:09 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Friedman


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:45:40 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:21:15 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:16:34 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:51:37 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >><snip>

 >>>>If it has been proven that the object in your film is not
 >>>>conventional aircraft, a balloon, birds/insects, weather
 >>>>phenomena, then it must be an alien spacecraft.

 >>>>I think that's what he wants to hear. When really the best we
 >>>>can do is say the footage is inconclusive. Unfortunately, for
 >>>>far too many people in Ufology 'inconclusive' = aliens. Kind of
 >>>>a kneejerk reaction if you ask me, but that's the way many
 >>>>people think, in this field.

 >>>I couldn't agree with you more, Ian.

 >>>Well said! Hit the nail on the head. The best we can conclude
 >>>about something unknown is that the data is inconclusive.

 >>>Thank you!

 >>I don't know about that premise. If someone is holding the
 >>winning hand in a poker game and I don't call them, how then
 >>would I ever know if they had the winning hand - if they don't
 >>declare it?

 >>The solution then, is inconclusive for me, and always will be,
 >>but not the winner of the game. If you transpose the winner of
 >>this game in this case is some intelligence in an object not of
 >>this Earth, and this intelligence doesn,t want to declare
 >>itself, how the heck are you ever going to prove it?

 >You're presuming too much already. Who said anything about
 >intelligences in objects not of this earth? We're talking about
 >inconclusive images on videotapes. Let's not jump ahead.

 >>Proving something is inconclusive is not an answer, it's just
 >>putting the question on hold.

 >Alien spacecraft wouldn't be a good answer, though. It's not
 >backed up with evidence. Inconclusive is not evidence. That's
 >why I refuse to call inconclusive videos proof of alien
 >spacecraft visiting earth.

 >>What you seem to be suggesting is that time will eventually
 >>prove that each UFO is really an IFO of prosaic means. That's
 >>just Klass's theory being recycled isn't it?

 >All I'm saying is that to presume something is alien just
 >because you can't tell what it is, is beyond irresponsible. It's
 >certainly not scientific!! It's more akin to religion since it's
 >more a matter of what you _believe_ it to be.

 >>All of the unsolved UFO sightings are due to the lack of
 >>sufficient information.

 >>Who determines what is sufficient information? Where's the
 >>cut-off point?

 >Frankly, I'm more interested in who determines what is an alien
 >spaceship. There doesn't seem to be any cut-off point there. Not
 >even a little bit!

I was gone for a week and am trying to catch up. Frankly Ian, I
think you are grossly misrepresenting the approach of those many
of us who are convinced that some UFOs are alien spacecraft...
not because "what else could it be?" , but because of a huge
number of similar reports from all over the world of objects
(not just lights in the sky) whose appearance clearly indicates
they are manufactured and whose behavior indicates they couldn't
have been made here since if they had been, they would have been
used for military purposes long ago.

Not only is there impressive eyewitness testimony, but there are
the 5000 physical trace cases from 70 countries that Ted
Phillips has collected. There are the many multiple witness
radar visual cases... manufactured, intelligent control,
behavior we cannot... duplicate especially when one considers
the low noise levels, the ability to land and take off
vertically, to hover, to make right angle turns, move at very
high speed, etc., etc.

The question, after all, is not what are UFOs, but are any ET
Spacecraft? Sure some UFOs are balloons, aircraft, astronomical,
insufficient information, etc. So what? The simple fact that
most isotopes aren't fissionable doesn't mean none are. Note we
need not know where the flying sauces come from, how they
operate, what their purpose is, why they don't land on the white
house lawn? Manufactured and behaving in the air in ways that we
can't duplicate. Some pictures clearly indicate they are of real
and large very strange flying objects. Do carefully read the 41
cases described by Jim McDonald . Read Dick Hall's excellent
books.

The simple fact that I cannot provide an alien body or a craft,
surely cannot be taken to mean they aren't around. I also cannot
provide you with a nuclear weapon. They are real, too.


Stan Friedman
www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html
click on picture









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                      Send Your Name To Comet Temple 1

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:26:05 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:03:39 -0400
Subject: Send Your Name To Comet Temple 1


Hi everyone!

People from many different places on Earth, including many UFO
UpDates readers and MUFON Ontario members, have already sent
their names into space aboard a variety of spacecraft launched
in recent years to Mars and other celestial bodies in our solar
system.

Here is another chance to add your name on the soon-to-be
launched 'Deep Impact' spacecraft which will crash into Comet
Temple 1 on July 1 (Canada Day), 2005. Go to the NASA web site
below for further details and be part of the fireworks! Let's
hope any ETs who may be out there do not interpret the massive
explosion as an agressive act or a threat to them by us
Earthlings.  ;o)

http://deepimpact.jpl.nasa.gov/sendyourname/


Nick Balaskas








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                   UFO Conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:10:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:05:22 -0400
Subject: UFO Conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia


UFO Conference October 11 & 12
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Canada

Speakers:

Stanton Friedman
Budd Hopkins
Antonio Huneeus
Chris Styles
Don Ledger

Program and registering details at:

http://www.ufohalifax.com

Contact:

UFO Halifax
Phone: 902 463-4723
Fax: 902-492-0226

Email us at: info@ufohalifax.com

**Note the special bus tour to Shag Harbour, NS.






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                     Terrace British Columbia - 05-09-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:18:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:08:08 -0400
Subject: Terrace British Columbia - 05-09-03


Hi List

This is one of three sighting reports I received. Two reports
last Sunday night which were telephoned into me and another
today (all taking place in Terrace, B.C.). I still have the
other reports to type up and will post later on.

Thank you
Brian


Terrace, British Columbia

Date:  May 9, 2003
Time:  10:35 p.m.
Toll Free Hotline

I received a telephone call from a Terrace, B.C. resident using
the toll free hotline, he wanted to report a strange sighting he
witnessed on May 9, 2003. It was a cloudless night and this
witness was walking from the north end of his property towards
his home and was looking at the night sky, viewing the
northeastern part of the sky he noticed a strange, small, out of
place light. As the witness watched the light, it began to grow
in size, and grew in brightness by the second. Within 5 to 6
seconds the light went from being the approx: size and
brightness of a star to approx: double the size of the moon. The
light, or object was traveling  at a very high altitude heading
toward the southwest and at this point straight over top of him,
still at a high altitude. After the light/object had disappeared
from the fellows sight, another strange light showed up some 5
minutes later.

Thank you to the witness for the report.
HBCC UFO Research

Please Note: All UFO sighting reports HBCC UFO Research receives
will be posted at my new website. "No pop-up ads folks. This
site can be found at:

http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                   Re: Another Abduction Question - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:04:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:09:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Another Abduction Question - Hatch


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:30:37 +0200
 >Subject: Another Abduction Question

 >Reading Allan Hendry's "The UFO Handbook"
 >(p. 136) I have found the following:

 >"k) A sixty-three-year-old retired automobile dealer left his
 >trailer home in southwestern Georgia for a walk with his two
 >dogs. Crossing a pasture, he saw a round UFO flash out of the
 >sky and hover two feet off the ground in front of him. The
 >witness, his dogs, and the cattle around him were all paralized.
 >Three men and two women with pale white skin, sharp upturned
 >noses, pointed ears, and no necks stepped out of an open hatch.
 >Two of them were completely nude, and none of them had any hair
 >on their bodies. The medical examination the UFOnauts gave this
 >man differs somewhat from the mainstream of abduction cases in
 >that it happened in a pasture in broad daylight..."

 >Can anybody confirm me if this is the same case described under
 >the title "Dawson encounter" (p. 150) in Ronald Story's "The
 >Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters"?

 > Luis R. Gonzalez Manso


Hello Luis:

If you can provide the dates and locations of the two incidents,
maybe I can sort it out here. I don't have Hendry or Story's
encyclopedia at hand.


Best

- Larry







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                             JLA: Identify Theft

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 4:51:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:10:49 -0400
Subject: JLA: Identify Theft


Greetings List,

Someone has lifted my E-mail address to send spam messages. As a
countermeasure, all original messages issuing from my computer
will be prefaced with "JLA" in the subject line. If you don't
see this in the subject line just delete the message.

Thank you.

Jan Aldrich

Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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                           Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry

From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:12:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:13:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Lowry


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:06:37 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >>>Subject: 'Frank M'?

 >>>Hello All,

 >>>Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
 >>>M'?

 >>>Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The
 >>>researchers are Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.

 >>Frank M. is a person that the IF (Intruders Foundation)
 >>invesitgated, he ia an upstate resident of New York, he was
 >>videotaping a UFO when a few moments later he was abducted from
 >>the same craft he had been recording Bruce Maccabee had analyzed
 >>the tape and have found it to be authentic.....

 >The videotape analysis is presented at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com/PeanutUFO/PeanutUFO.html

 >where the witnesses are referred to as "Fred and Mary."

Great write-up Bruce, thank you so much for sharing with us.

L&L

Louise

World Of The Strange http://www.worldofthestrange.com
(We're Back)







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                        UFO Plan Sparks War Of Words

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:19:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:19:15 -0400
Subject: UFO Plan Sparks War Of Words



Source: The Blackpool Gazette - Lancashire, UK

http://www.blackpooltoday.co.uk/contactus.asp

UFO Plan Sparks War Of Words

AN INTERGALACTIC war of words has broken out over plans to open
a paranormal show in Blackpool.

Businessman Tony Carson announced last week he wants to create a
multi-million pound World UFO Centre with spectacular
attractions powered by the latest technology.

He hopes to apply for permission to build a five-storey high
flying saucer on an unnamed site in the resort, which would be
hosted by an alien creature who would show visitors around 19
different zones.

But a top alien expert, whose promenade exhibition is the only
one of its kind in the UK, claims plans to open another show
right on his doorstep is a close encounter he could do without.

David Boyle, who set up the Exhibition of The Universe five
years ago after he had a personal extraterrestrial experience,
hopes to blow Mr Carson's ambitious proposal out of the
universe.

He has been inundated with phone calls from worried visitors and
fellow UFO enthusiasts since Mr Carson, son of comedian Frank,
revealed his grand vision.

Speaking to The Gazette last week, Mr Carson said his proposal
would help to pull visitors into Blackpool and would fit in with
the resort's masterplan.

Annoyed

After reading about the proposed attractions for the new centre,
Mr Boyle is convinced that someone has passed on details of his
own exhibition to his would-be rival.

He is annoyed that what is being proposed - including footage of
UFO sightings, stories of abductions and contact with aliens -
  is already featured at his attraction.

The Exhibition of The Universe, which Mr Boyle said he collated
after a lifetime of research, also includes details about auras,
ghosts, near-death and out-of-body experiences.

"We were astounded that somebody could say that they would do
what we have already done," he said. "While we can't match the
outside of his plan, our centre is the most advanced in the
world, and the only one in the UK.

"We have carried out continuous, in-depth investigating, spoken
to thousands of people all over the world and have come back
with a complete alternative theory.

"After having spent every penny building the most advanced UFO
centre in the world, we have a full explanation of flying
saucers and have worked out how science fits in too.

"We are not going to do anything about this, we are already here
and have all of this in our show and what they have suggested is
just a pipe dream."


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]






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                           'Aliens' In McMinnville

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:24:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:24:40 -0400
Subject: 'Aliens' In McMinnville



Source: The News-Register - McMinnville, Oregon

http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=166003

Published: May 13, 2003

Aliens invade! Aliens invade!
By Starla Pointer

Of the News-Register

A galaxy of visitors, ranging from serious scientists to fun-
seekers, landed in McMinnville Thursday through Saturday for the
annual UFO Festival and Alien Daze celebration.

Hundreds lined Third Street on Saturday afternoon for what has
become the highlight for many - the alien parade. The event
celebrates diversity not only of race, creed and color, but also
of planetary origin.

Cars covered with aluminum foil rolled along behind people
wearing green makeup or wrinkly, brainlike headgear. Some aliens
rode buses or bicycles or skateboards, while others traveled on
their own two, six or 17 feet.

Two of the floats celebrated the UFO photos taken at the Trent
farm near McMinnville in 1950. The Trent sighting inspired
McMenamins Hotel Oregon to start the festival five years ago.

Grand marshal for the parade was Stanton Friedman, a physicist
who has focused his scientific research on the Roswell, N.M.,
UFO incident and, he says, subsequent cover-up.

Friedman was the keynote speaker at the festival. The other main
speaker was Peter Robbins, a crop circle authority and author of
"Left at East Gate," the meticulously researched story of three
days of UFO activity at American Air Force bases in England in
1980.

Both men spoke Friday night in the Mack Theater, following a
presentation by Oregon UFO Research.

The Salem-based group collects information about UFO sightings
and investigates some of the cases. Last year, Oregon UFO
Research received 63 reports of sightings, including that of a
quick-moving, football-shaped light over Carlton, a crop
formation near Forest Grove and a 100-foot-wide, plate-like
fluorescent craft near Dallas.

In a talk called "Debunking the Roswell Debunkers," Friedman
said many people have dismissed his research without any
knowledge of their own or by picking and choosing bits of
information that fit their predetermined conclusions. "They say,
'Don't bother me with facts,'" he mimicked.

He said he is a scientist who bases his conclusions on evidence
gained from interviewing witnesses, visiting sites and reading
what little documentation he can get from the government.

Not all UFOs are of alien origin, he said. However, he said,
"The evidence is overwhelming that the U.S. is being visited by
intelligent life from other planets. It's time we revised our
priorities and started looking at what's really important,
instead of things like Monica Lewinsky and Gary Condit."

Robbins used his portion of the evening to talk about the
sightings in the Rendelsham Forest, the case described in "Left
at East Gate."

The forest on the East Coast of England divides two bases that
were then used by the U.S. Air Force. The bases also were used
for storing massive nuclear weapons, he said.

Robbins discussed the process he used to write the book after
meeting Larry Walters, who witnessed the incident while
stationed in England as an Air Force security officer.

He conducted dozens of interviews, visited the site many times,
sought answers from the military and analyzed soil from the
field where a UFO landed.

He even ignored no trespassing signs to get onto the air bases,
which now are closed. "It's funny, the stuff you do when you
become obsessed," he said.

Robbins also spoke briefly Saturday at a UFO film festival,
introducing a program about crop circles.

As the weekend of activities ended, Robbins said he had enjoyed
his visit to McMinnville very much.

A few years ago, he said, he probably would have passed up the
invitation, which was extended by the SciFi Channel at its
expense. In fact, although he has spoken at many scholarly UFO
events, this was his first light-hearted festival.

"I take myself seriously," he said, "and earlier, I wouldn't
have wanted to be part of something in which my research might
be demeaned."

But, he said, "We're living human lives here, and a fair amount
of doing that is about having a good time. There was nothing
mocking or mean-spirited in the way McMinnville tied together
the fun and the serious."

He was especially touched to see all the children lining the
street as he rode in the parade. Raising healthy children who
are accepting of a variety of viewpoints is important, he said.

Maybe by being exposed to scientific research and UFO
investigation in a carefree way, he said, children may catch
some of his enthusiasm for the subject.

"The fun might make it a little less intimidating for them to
look at the serious," Robbins said. "For a lot of youngsters,
this is a weekend they'll remember, and that will help them grow
up with an open mind. They'll be open to the idea that there is
stuff in life that is mysterious and that life is an adventure,
and that we may be able to be involved in solving some of those
mysteries."






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:16:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:39:17 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:45:41 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:51:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:33:13 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>The reason why I invested in expensive photo equipment was
 >>>because I agreed with many people that anecdotal reports are
 >>>just not enough. I figured if I had photos and video to back up
 >>>my sighting reports that it would help to make the testimony
 >>>more credible. But no. After going through all the expense and
 >>>trouble of recording my sightings the bar is raised once again
 >>>and I am told that pictures and video don't mean anything
 >>>because they can be faked.

 >>>Horse players have a saying... "I can't win for losing." That's
 >>>the case for anyone who dares to try to prove that they have
 >>>seen a UFO. But hey, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. It
 >>>is only in response to the dictates of my own conscience that I
 >>>participate in any public forums at all.

 >In the following you respond to a statement I made which you
 >did not include in the quoted material above.

 >>Again, John, you assume that skeptics would not be pleased by a
 >>White House landing, because we would just "raise the bar,"
 >>citing that we need more evidence.

 >In my original post I was very careful to say that 'some' skeptics
 >react thus and so. I even put little quote marks around the word
 >'some' in order to emphasize it. How could you have missed it?

 >I rarely if ever make blanket statements when it comes to people,
 >Ian. And, I haven't 'assumed' that 'some' skeptics would not be
 >satisfied with a landing on the white house lawn. It is a statement
 >of fact.

 >There are people out there whose minds are so closed to the idea
 >of there being any other life forms in the universe (besides us)
 >or that those life forms may be studying the Earth and its
 >inhabitants, that they would sooner believe such a landing to be
 >a Hollywood stunt than a genuine event. Don't kid yourself, there
 >_are_ people with such narrow, limited, closed minds.

 >I'm glad to hear that you are not among them. But please, don't
 >attribute statements to me that I have not made. (Don't presume
 >to put words in my mouth.)

 >>How can you say it's aliens when it could be something natural that
 >>we've never seen yet?

 >I never said/claimed any such thing.

 >Are you reading what I actually wrote or what you'd like hear?
 >Re-read both of my original posts to Amy. If I attribute
 >anything to aliens anywhere in those posts I challenge you to
 >produce the direct quotations.

 >Again, if you're going to respond to one or more of my posts,
 >how about responding to what I _actually_said_ rather than what
 >you'd like to think I said.

 >>That alone should preclude the cry of 'Aliens!'

 >I "_cried_ aliens!"? Where? Man, you have some kind of vivid
 >imagination!

 >>Just because our experts can't explain what they see
 >>isn't really a good reason to label something an alien ship.

 >Please show me _anywhere_ in my posts where I have done
 >that. If you can't, I expect a public apology for your incessant
 >creation of imaginary statements that you _falsely_ attribute
 >to me. Again... quit putting words in my mouth. Either address
 >something I have actually said or don't bother responding at all.

 >>So what am I trying to say?

 >Apparently a whole bunch of stuff that you've pulled out of thin
 >air and that you're trying to attribute to me.

 >>I guess I'll just have to live with myself, somehow!

 >I guess so. Sounds like it must be hard for you sometimes eh?

 >>I'm not trying to attack you, John,

 >No, not at all. You're just trying to stuff every cliche that
 >'some' skeptics attribute to 'true believers' down _my_ throat.
 >In an effort to do what? Make yourself look good? Or to make me
 >look like a gullible boob? Never mind. Rhetorical question.

 >>I'm here because I'm genuinely curious.

 >Really? You could have fooled me! Sounds like you've got your
 >mind made up about a great many things. Including several
 >imaginary ones. I would like an on-List apology for all the
 >completely made-up crap that you've tried to lay at my doorstep,
 >Ian.

True believers are also trying to stuff cliches down people'
throats, as well, and you've made it pretty clear what side of
the fence you stand on on the UFO question. I'll apologize for
my "creations of imaginary statements," since I can freely admit
that I did attribute statements to you that you only danced
around and didn't actually write in stone. Regardless, you have
your apology.

But I hope you know that until people who experience supposed
alien encounters (of which you are one) can produce irrefutable
proof, your own words are little more than potential imaginary
statements.


Ian Rogers







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                    Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:55:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:44:33 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples - Gehrman


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:54:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:29:25 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:32:04 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Rock Samples

 >>I also champion the alien autopsy as being a real event, but
 >>don't understand the "for personal reasons"; perhaps you could
 >>elaborate.

 >I shall spare you the embarrassment.

Ray, All my dealings with the AA have been open and honest.
  There's nothing that I've done that could possibility be
embarrassing. I'm proud of my work on the AA and believe my
persistence will eventually result in the AA footage being
recognized as the record of an actual event. You need to explain
this so the List isn't left with the impression that I have
something to hide, because I don't.

 >>Good question. If the A-LM were deposited from a disabled craft,
 >>then it should be found on individual sand pebbles and in the
 >>dirt just as you say. I haven't looked but I will when I return
 >>to the site, hopefully with you and other interested listers,
 >>this summer. The wind and rain over the last fifty-five years
 >>have probably dispersed the individual sand particles, but there
 >>should still be evidence of their existance if we screen the
 >>sand around heavy concentrations of the A-LM.

 >You know well that if the chalcedony had been deposited in the
 >ground it would not only be on individual sand particles but
 >would exist like a crust, holding the soil together and it would
 >not have blown away.

I don't know that at all. But we might find something just like
that. The site needs careful examination and I'm not equipped
with the scientific or technical expertise to do it myself.

 >I strongly suspect, seeing your will-to-believe attitude, that
 >you would go out, find tiny particles of the rocks (that have
 >weathered off the larger rocks) with water-deposited chalcedony
 >remaining on them, and claim it is proof the ground was once
 >covered with the stuff. Well, that will not make your case!

I don't go about things that way and won't do it by myself; this
calls for a group effort.

 >You would have to show large areas of soil with the 'A-LM'
 >binding the sand particles together. You will never, ever find
 >that, Ed, because your 'theory' is nothing but a ludicrous pipe
 >dream.

You'll never know until you visit the site and see for yourself.
It's not a pipe dream; I've reported my experience accurately.

 >I have decided not to play your game. Let the micro probe reveal
 >it is nothing but silica dioxide with minor traces, and you will
 >immediately say, regardless, that it was deposited by the UFO.
 >So, where would we be? I would have wasted the lab's instrument
 >time, and you would still be singing the same old B.S. song.

You commited to doing a probe; I expect a probe. It might be
wasted time, but I sent you the samples with the understanding
that you'd test them with all the means at your disposal. That
was our agreement wasn't it?

 >This decision is based on your response, today, and upon letters
 >I have received from several esteemed members of this List who,
 >unlike you, have good objectivity and, in several cases, records
 >of important contributions to UFO studies. They have advised me
 >to not waste my time, for they have witnessed your behavior on
 >this List and elsewhere. They tell me you are a hopeless case,
 >and you have pretty well convinced me of that.

My behavior on this List is an open book. Read the archives. Yes
I have been a little impetuous in the past, but with EBK's
insistence, I've modified my behavior. My only problem is I
support Corso's version of events and believe Ray Santilli and
the cameraman are telling the truth. Aside from those two
indiscretions, I'm just your run-of-the-mill UFO nut.

 >>Until we are able to study the actual propulsion systems of UFO,
 >>one theory is as good as another.
 >Ridiculous! The theory based on fact is far superior to ideas
 >based on hoaxes and the pipe dreams of their believers.

How do you think these crafts are propelled?

 >>I base my ideas on the work of
 >>Ivan Sanderson, and my understanding of vehemas, the flying
 >>crafts used by the ancients of India.

 >In the first place, what relevance has that to this?! Hey, I'm
 >one step (or more) ahead of you on that stuff, and was likely
 >reading it before you were ever born. The old Indian word is not
 >"vehemas", but "vimana". If you prefer to do your 'science' by
 >parroting (albeit inaccurately) old writings of India, then
 >that's fine, but don't try to explain naturally occurring
 >chalcedony on rocks in a New Mexico desert as being from a
 >"vimana"!

You wanted to know how I thought it might happen. I told you.
Why the derisive tone? Were "vimanas" somehow debunked while I
was in NM. And Ivan Sanderson - are you familiar with his
research on the subject of UFO propulsion?

 >>...The disabled craft picked up sand and converted it along
 >>with atmospheric moisture and other chemicals and debris to form
 >>the A-LM which it dispersed when it crash-landed.

 >Damn! I wish I had a crystal ball like yours that can reveal
 >exactly the truth about every situation without factual basis or
 >any research!!! Must be nice! :)

If vimanas do exist and if they use an electromagnetic vortex
for propulsion, then it's entirely conceivable that the silica
dioxide could be converted as I theorize. The craft that the
cameraman drew was not a disk. I don't have all the answers.
Have I given the impression that I do?

 >>>Can you really expect any intelligent person to want to listen
 >>>to that kind of pseudoscientific crap? I hoped, since it was "my
 >>>dime", as you say, that it would be more constructive to explain
 >>>to you the process of chalcedony formation and more about its
 >>>characteristics, plus to correct the flawed nature of your
 >>>reasoning. It looks, however, that my time and phone expense was
 >>>wasted.

 >And you responded:

 >>Not at all. I learned alot.

 >Not enough!

You can't seem to take a complement. What's that all about?

 >>It [visiting the alleged crash site] would be a wonderful
 >>experience for you; the chance in a lifetime.

 >LMAO! - like I my wife and I did when we saw that ludicrously
 >flawed AA film!

I asked you if you wanted a copy of the AA on CD and you
refused. Why? It's much better than the fox version, uncut and
you can move along frame by frame.

Check out this site; you might want to buy a set for yourself:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/aaindex.html

 >>I don't see the point to all that [hoax description of crash
 >>site.]. What would this person gain?
 >
 >Some people hoax for money, some for a sense of power over those
 >who fall for it, others do so for both reasons. Where have you
 >been all your life, Ed?

The cameraman's story is well known. Your example is silly; many
folks have tried to find the crash site, including some on this
List.

 >>Hopefully our discussion will motivate some listers to visit the
 >>site and see for themselves whether it's a crash site
 >>possibility or not.

 >If anyone is unobservant and 'wide-eyed' enough to believe the
 >AA film, they deserve their 'just reward', so let them waste
 >their money and time with you out in your 'Field of Dreams', Ed.

You can characterize it any way you wish but I'd like it
referred to as the "cameraman's crash site" (CCS).

 >Have fun, use sunscreen, careful of scorpions and snakes, but
 >you can be certain that I will not be there.

Damn! I didn't set the hook soon enough.

 >>There's nothing wrong with your description. In fact
 >>it's quite well done, but it doesn't apply to this site.

 >Dream on, Ed!

 >>EBK and Listers know that I wouldn't try to sucker them.

 >I wouldn't want to speak for EBK, but the Listers who have
 >written me declare that you are the sucker, Ed, and we know that
 >self-deception seeks company.

Glad we got that cleared up! I have not backed down from any
verbal tussle on the List, but I've always kept my word, and
tried to tell the truth as I saw it. If that makes me a sucker,
so be it. If some Listers aren't pleased with this behavior,
they're perfectly free to confront me, off List.

 >Yes, Ed, I've changed my mind about asking for a microprobe
 >because I refuse to lead a laboratory on your 'wild goose
 >chase', in which (in view of your letter to this list, of May
 >13) you would once more try to twist the result into your own
 >misperception of reality -- and that's putting it about as
 >kindly as I know how.

You said you'd do a microprobe and that's still what I expect.
We can then discuss the results, just as we have discussed the
other information you have provided, all of which is excellent.
You're the person making this process difficult, but as I said,
I knew you'd be a fighter.

 >If you're so convinced you have something other than chalcedony,
 >I leave it to you to make a fool of yourself to the staff of
 >some lab with a microprobe, but don't try to 'force my hand'.

Yes I think the probe will show that the material is not normal
agate and there will be some anomalies. But we'll never know
until you test the material as you said you would.

 >Have fun, because fields of dreams can dissolve before your very
 >eyes - but only if you dare open your eyes to see what's really
 >there, and not there.

Just test the material and get back to me with the results.


Ed








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                             UFOs & Scandinavia?

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opendf.com.br>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 9:45:53 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:36:56 -0400
Subject: UFOs & Scandinavia?


Hello List

I am asking again some help.

I am writing articles for UFO Magazine Brazil about the UFO
activity in all the continents.

I wrote about Cubaa and Africa, and now I am starting to write
about UFO activity in Scandinavia.

So, would you help me sending cases and informations?

Thank you very much.



--



Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-Presidente EBE-ET - Brasilia/DF
International Coordenator UFO Magazine Brazil

@ Primeiro, talvez =FAnico, provedor do DF com anti-v=EDrus no servidor de=

e-mails @






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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:26:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:40:29 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Velez


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:16:50 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:45:41 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:51:15 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

Ian wrote:

 >>>How can you say it's aliens when it could be something natural that
 >>>we've never seen yet?

I responded:

 >>I never said/claimed any such thing.

 >>Are you reading what I actually wrote or what you'd like hear?
 >>Re-read both of my original posts to Amy. If I attribute
 >>anything to aliens anywhere in those posts I challenge you to
 >>produce the direct quotations.

 >>Again, if you're going to respond to one or more of my posts,
 >>how about responding to what I _actually_said_ rather than what
 >>you'd like to think I said.

 >>>That alone should preclude the cry of 'Aliens!'

 >>I "_cried_ aliens!"? Where? Man, you have some kind of vivid
 >>imagination!

 >>>Just because our experts can't explain what they see
 >>>isn't really a good reason to label something an alien ship.

 >>Please show me _anywhere_ in my posts where I have done
 >>that. If you can't, I expect a public apology for your incessant
 >>creation of imaginary statements that you _falsely_ attribute
 >>to me. Again... quit putting words in my mouth. Either address
 >>something I have actually said or don't bother responding at all.

 >>>So what am I trying to say?

 >>Apparently a whole bunch of stuff that you've pulled out of thin
 >>air and that you're trying to attribute to me.

 >>>I guess I'll just have to live with myself, somehow!

 >>I guess so. Sounds like it must be hard for you sometimes eh?

 >>>I'm not trying to attack you, John,

 >>No, not at all. You're just trying to stuff every cliche that
 >>'some' skeptics attribute to 'true believers' down _my_ throat.
 >>In an effort to do what? Make yourself look good? Or to make me
 >>look like a gullible boob? Never mind. Rhetorical question.

 >>>I'm here because I'm genuinely curious.

 >>Really? You could have fooled me! Sounds like you've got your
 >>mind made up about a great many things. Including several
 >>imaginary ones. I would like an on-List apology for all the
 >>completely made-up crap that you've tried to lay at my doorstep,
 >>Ian.

Ian's public "apology":

 >True believers are also trying to stuff cliches down people'
 >throats, as well, and you've made it pretty clear what side of
 >the fence you stand on on the UFO question. I'll apologize for
 >my "creations of imaginary statements," since I can freely admit
 >that I did attribute statements to you that you only danced
 >around and didn't actually write in stone. Regardless, you have
 >your apology.

 >But I hope you know that until people who experience supposed
 >alien encounters (of which you are one) can produce irrefutable
 >proof, your own words are little more than potential imaginary
 >statements.

LMAO! Wow, that was one hell of a back-handed apology. Almost as
insulting as your original fabrications. But, it is an apology
nonetheless. And I suppose the best you are capable of.

Apology accepted.

_Don't_ let it happen again. ;)


John Velez








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                   Hybrid Ultra Large Aircraft R&D Project

From: Joel Carpenter <imagery@ufx.org>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:30:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:42:51 -0400
Subject: Hybrid Ultra Large Aircraft R&D Project


NIDS may be interested.

Joel Carpenter

-----

Source: Department of The Navy - USA

http://pao.navair.navy.mil/press_releases/index.cfm?fuseaction=press_release_vie
w&Press_release_id=2270&site_id=1

Hybrid Ultra Large Aircraft R&D Project

NAVAIR News Release

Press Release Number: EPX200305141

Release Date: 5/14/2003

NAVAIR Patuxent River, Md., will be host an industry day
conference June 5 to discuss new technologies in the area of
Hybrid Ultra Large Aircraft (HULA). This conference will be a
forum to inform interested companies and individuals of the
government's intent to explore hybrid aircraft technology for
various military missions, especially for transglobal heavy
lift. The envisioned product of this effort is a family of HULA
with a 30 to 1,000 ton payload capability which can transport
outsized cargo between areas which lack prepared reception
facilities, including operations from water.

Hybrid aircraft are lighter than air vehicles which combine
static lift from the buoyancy of helium gas with aerodynamic
lift derived from the lifting body shape of the pressure
envelope.

A feature that is vital to the perceived military utility of a
HULA is its ability to operate from unprepared surfaces and
without forward base support; it is not dependent upon access to
runways or seaports. The program plan entails beginning with the
design, construction, flight test and evaluation of relatively
small 500 pound payload models which will serve to create a data
base of information on aerodynamic and control characteristics
and yield insights into construction techniques and operational
aspects which are, to a degree, scalable up through the
envisioned larger vehicles.

As many as four contractors will be funded up to $2.5 million
each to produce and demonstrate their individual designs with
first flight goals of one year from contract award (to occur in
FY-04). Additionally, the selected participants will be expected
to produce conceptual pre-designs of 30 and 500 ton HULAs for
which the data from their model demonstrations has application.

The meeting will be held in the Titan facility in Lexington
Park, Md. from 9 a.m. to noon. To participate or for more
information, email to huettse@navair.navy.mil or
cmyersaero@aol.com.

Following the NAVAIR presentations and exchange of views, the
industrial participants are invited to submit comments and
suggestions or questions, not to exceed five pages, regarding
the proposed competitive program. Comments should be received by
June 15.








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                 Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information -

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:33:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:47:25 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:50:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:40:24 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:10:52 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >><snip>

 >>>Yeah, but for a group of inept people, they're doing a pretty
 >>>good job of keeping a lid on the whole deal. We can call them
 >>>the stupid government all we want, but they can't be that dumb
 >>>if they've supposedly blinded the planet for the last fifty years.

 >>Ahh, come on guys and girls, we all know its down to big dollar
 >>signs in the eyes of the government. Let's not mince words over
 >>trifles. If UFO and ET were said to be real by them then the
 >>spin-off technology and dollars made would be much less. Plus
 >>there is the superiority of armanent, defence etc.

 >Yeah, but if you listen to some '"ufologists", the spin-off
 >technology _is_ here. That DVD players and microwave ovens are
 >not really natural progressions of our technology but reverse-
 >engineered goodies from the brave aliens that died during the
 >Roswell UFO crash of '47.

Don't know about those things Ian, but often wonder why we
originally had hexadecimal (8 binary digits) rather than 10.
ET grays supposably have 8 digits, we have 10 (fingers and
thumbs). Also wonder where the idea came from for transistors,
optic data transfer, the shape of some cutting edge planes etc.

Bet you that some ufologists claim that telepathic ETs gave the
inventers the ideas unbeknownst to them if the ET technology
wasn't back engineered.

Wonder what other goodies will be available soon. Maybe free
energy, faster than light travel and communication and the 10
terahertze optical home pc.

If ET did die to give us all this then they should be
acknowledged for it and honoured to the highest degree possible.
When will we be able to do this one wonders ? Hope I live to see
it.


col








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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:38:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:48:45 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:04:56 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >Something has come to my attention. Originally, I wrote:

 >>>>>Contact Tommy King or Bruce Maccabee privately and ask them for
 >>>>>their permission to use some examples of the many
 >>>>>_genuinely_anomalous_ aerial objects that they have archived at
 >>>>>their respective web sites.

 >You responded:

 >>>>I've already contacted both gentlemen.

 >Your reply gives the casual reader the false impression that you
 >contacted Tommy King and Bruce Maccabee in 'response' to my
 >recent suggestion. At least that was the impression that I got.
 >Tommy King informs me that you contacted him more than a half a
 >year ago on an entirely different matter and that you refused to
 >follow-up on some evidence he was trying to present to you. (?)

You suggested that I contact these gentlemen and I said I had
_already_ contacted them. What's so hard about that, John?
You're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I also note, with some amusement, that you don't indicate why I
contacted Mr. King. I contacted him about the alleged UFO
footage shot by Tim Edwards posted at

http://home.gzinc.com/mmz/tim.htm,

some of which is posted on Mr. King's web site at

http://www.ufovideo.com/videos.php

(you have to enter a username and password to view the footage).

I wrote to Tom first complimenting him on his work of
stabilizing the Mexico UFO images and tried to share what I had
learned about the Tim Edwards alleged UFO footage. Below is the
passage from my original letter to Tom:

"In reference to the video images from Tim Edwards on your web
site, I have replicated these images by video taping spider silk
reflecting sun light. I came across it by accident while filming
various images of birds, bugs, debris and conventional aircraft
in flight for my IFO Database. I happened to see the spider silk
images in footage I'd shot one day so I set out to deliberately
film spider silk reflecting sunlight to compare to Mr. Edwards
footage of an alleged UFO. I have a lot of video footage of
spider silk reflecting sunlight and have been able to replicate
almost all the images and characteristics in Mr. Edward's
footage including the "rippling lights" seen in Tim's footage
and other characteristics of the alleged UFO.

I can create AVI's but not MPG's (working on obtaining the
software) so I don't have any actual footage on the internet at
the moment. I can send you a copy of the footage if you would
like to compare it to Mr. Edward's footage but you can easily
replicate these results yourself by video taping various strands
of spider silk reflecting sunlight from various angles. Just
find a strand of spider silk blowing free in the wind or
suspended and find the angle which best reflects the sun light
and video tape it. When you review the footage, you will find
that only the sunlit portions of the spider silk tend to show up
on video and will display all the characteristics in the Tim
Edwards footage."

To which Tom replied that he would like to review the
information and footage I had in reference to Mr. Edwards
footage. I then spent part of my afternoon putting together 3
AVI's from the footage I had shot of spider silk reflecting
sunlight and posted it on a web page for Tom to view with ease
and offered to send him a copy of the original video footage if
he wanted to give me an address where I could send the footage.

Tom's reply:

"I'm having some "mine type errors" when trying to get those AVI
files. I guess my browser choice does have the same codecs you
do. Do you need some assistance for MPG or MOV? I might be able
to help ya."

I find it interesting that I had presented the materials, AVI's,
in a simple format yet Mr. King, who supposedly had all these
video skills, couldn't view the AVI's? Instead he offers
assistance in converting the footage to other formats. I told
Tom I could use any suggestions he might care to give.

Tom and I then engage in a discussion about the witnesses and
what they claimed they saw that day. I asked several questions
but Tom never answered them. Instead, Tom refers me to old
reruns of Mr. Edwards story as presented on Sightings and other
programs. To which I replied:

"Yes, I have viewed some of the old programs and video tapes
that include Tim's video and witness testimony. As I said, I
don't know how the other witnesses fit in but I am quite sure
Tim video taped spider silk reflecting sunlight. In fact, in one
of the video stills on his web site, you can make out where the
silk strand appears to have been attached to his house or some
structure on his roof (see attached - I enhanced the still to
help you see the white line that extends downward at an angle,
therefore not likely to be video artifact, and to the edge of
the roof). You can also see where the spider silk strand appears
attached between the "UFO" and to the roof in places in Tim's
video if you look for it. If you look at it as only a UFO, then
you will not look for the rest of the information available in
the footage."

I indicated that if you look closely, you can even see where the
spider silk (aka "UFO") in Mr. Edwards' footage is visible but
Tom didn't seem interested neither did he reflect having any
cognizance of what I was trying to show him.

Here is the original web page I tried to share with Mr. King
(with a few additions and modifications due to new materials
added and new address):

http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/comparison_avi.htm
(click on "Refresh" to start the AVI's again)

Tom's final reply after having _never reviewed the footage_ I
was trying to share with him:

 >Now if Tim and family watched this thru binoculars I find it hard to
 >believe it was a spiderweb on the roof.

I then realized that Tom was not interested in reviewing the
information I had to share as his mind was made up. Not once did
Tom take me up on my offer to send him a copy of the footage I
had of spider silk reflecting sunlight - which I offered to send
repeatedly. This indicated to me that Tom was not going to
consider alternative theories or evidence and I was wasting my
time.

Now tell me, John, just who was it that really "refused follow-
up"? Hmmmm?

Seems to me that anyone claiming to do good UFO research would review
new evidence when brought to their attention rather than avoid it. I
have contacted many individuals in private offering to share
information I have but repeatedly, I have found it a waste of time.
Do I give up? NO! I am confident that someday, hopefully soon,
UFO investigators and researchers will realize just how many
misidentifications and hoaxes they are really faced with and will reach
for better tools in their analyses. Why? Because of the need to know
the _truth_.

 >That aside for the moment, you should have made it clear to me
 >and other List readers that you had not complied (recently) with
 >the suggestion that I made. Your response to me (above) gives
 >the impression that you contacted both gentlemen in regard to
 >our recent discussion.

That was _your_ interpretation, John. I had already contacted
both gentlemen and indicated as such. Do you really think this
is an issue (your issue, I might add) worthy of our time?

 >Now, why does someone who claims to be conducting honest and
 >open research/inquiry refuse to check out material that is being
 >offered/proffered?

Good question, John. Why not ask Tom why he never checked out
the materials I offered/proffered?

 >Tom King was ready and willing to provide you
 >with information/data about the case/video you had inquired
 >about. You refused to look at it or follow up on it in favor of
 >following your own 'pre-formed' conclusions about it. The man
 >offered you relevant material that he considered to be evidence
 >that contradicted your conclusions. Yet you didn't follow up on
 >it, or even look at it. What kind of 'research' is that?

John, I had already reviewed the information and had copies of
the Tim Edwards' footage in my own video files (I indicated to
Tom I had already reviewed the materials). I didn't have "pre-
formed" conclusions, I came across the spider silk similarities
by accident and recognized having seen it before in Mr. Edwards'
alleged UFO footage. It was Mr. King who refused to follow up on
it or even look at the footage I had offered (same for Tim
Edwards when I shared the same information with him). Now YOU
tell me, what kind of 'research' is that?

 >You wrote to me:

 >>I do not deceive, I fight deception. What do you do?

 >I'd like to turn that question around (in the light of the new
 >information I have acquired above) and ask you the same thing.

 >"What do _you_ do?"

Research.

 >Writing a book? Is there something you need to prove?

John, grow up.

I'm sorry but I have to work, just like you, and have two kids
to raise. I also need sleep from time to time and these
conversations with you have become pointless. I can either share
my research (which takes time to set up) or chit chat with you.
Since we seem to be getting no where, I am returning to my work.

If Mr. King wishes to address our previous conversations about
the Tim Edwards footage, please pass the keyboard to him.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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                          Re: 'Frank M'? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:33:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:58:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Gonzalez


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:06:37 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >>>Subject: 'Frank M'?

 >>>Hello All,

 >>>Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
 >>>M'?

 >>>Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The
 >>>researchers are Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.

 >>Frank M. is a person that the IF (Intruders Foundation)
 >>invesitgated, he ia an upstate resident of New York, he was
 >>videotaping a UFO when a few moments later he was abducted from
 >>the same craft he had been recording Bruce Maccabee had analyzed
 >>the tape and have found it to be authentic.....

 >The videotape analysis is presented at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com/PeanutUFO/PeanutUFO.html

 >where the witnesses are referred to as "Fred and Mary."

In Dr. Maccabee's analysis there is no mention about any alleged
abduction, on the contrary:

"She (Frank M's wife) walked over toward him and stood there
watching as he got about 12 1/2 seconds of video before the
object disappeared above a cloud. Fred walked to another
location to see if it might come out of the cloud but...no luck.
That was it. The sighting had lasted, perhaps, 25 to 30 seconds,
maximum.

About a week later Fred was wondering who to tell about this
event. He managed to locate Stanton Friedman and a local MUFON
investigator, Jim Bouck".

How did the idea of an abduction come around? Did the wife
commented anything?


Luis R. Gonzalez Manso








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                     The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:00:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:56:57 -0400
Subject: The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law


On 16 July 1969, a United States law was passed called the
"Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law" that made it illegal for the
public to come in contact with extra-terrestrials or their
vehicles. (Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal
Regulations). Anyone found guilty of such contact could face up
to one year imprisonment as well as a fine of $5000. Also, any
individual who had been "exposed" could be quarantined under
armed guard by the NASA administrator without a hearing.

The law was passed originally to protect Earth from possible
biological contamination resulting from the US Apollo Space
Program and other space exploration programs. It has been
suggested by researchers and scientists that the U.S. government
was very concerned that contact with extra-terrestrial bacteria
could result in a worldwide plague. The immune system of human
beings wouldn't be able to fight off extra-terrestrial bacteria,
so therefore any kind of "extra-terrestrial exposure" was taken
very seriously.

People in the UFO community especially were alarmed with the law
because its broad definitions could allow the US government to
prosecute people in NASA as well as individuals of the general
public who come into contact with extra-terrestrials and their
vehicles.

UFO and ET believers found it interesting that in one hand the
government was denying they had any interest in extra-
terrestrials, yet they had a law which forbid contact with ETs
and their craft.

1211.100 Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space
Part 1211 - Extra-terrestrial Exposure
1211.100 - Scope

This part establishes:

# NASA policy, responsibility and authority to guard the Earth
against any harmful contamination or adverse changes in its
environment resulting from personnel, spacecraft and other
property returning to the Earth after landing on or coming
within the atmospheric envelope of a celestial body; and

# security requirements, restrictions and safeguards that are
necessary in the interest of national security.

1211.101 - Applicability

The provisions of this part to all NASA manned and unmanned
space missions which land or come within the atmospheric
envelope of a celestial body and return to the Earth.

1211.102 - Definitions

# "NASA" and the "Administrator" mean, respectively, the
National Aeronautics and Space Administration and the
Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration or his authorized representative.

# "Extra-terrestrially exposed" means the state of condition of
any person, property, animal or other form of life or matter
whatever, who or which has:

  1. Touched directly or come within the atmospheric envelope or
any other celestial body

  2. Touched directly or been in close proximity to (or been
exposed indirectly to) any person, property, animal or other
form of life or matter who or which has been
extra-terrestrially exposed by virtue of paragraph (b)(1) of
this section. For example, if person or thing "A" touches
the surface of the Moon, and on "A's" return to Earth, "B"
touches "A" and, subsequently, "C" touches "B", all of these
- "A" through "C" inclusive - would be extra-terrestrially
exposed ("A" and "B" directly; "C" indirectly).

  3. "Quarantine" means the detention, examination and
decontamination of any persons, property, animal or other
form of life or matter whatever that is extra-terrestrially
exposed, and includes the apprehension or seizure of such
person, property, animal or other form of life or matter
whatever.

  4. "Quarantine period" means a period of consecutive calendar
days as may be established in accordance with 1211.104


Administrative actions.

The Administrator or his designee..shall in his discretion:

# 1. Determine the beginning and duration of a quarantine period
with respect to any space mission; the quarantine period as it
applies to various life forms will be announced.

  2. Designate in writing quarantine officers to exercise
quarantine authority.

  3. Determine that a particular person, property, animal, or
other form of life or matter, whatever is extra-terrestrially
exposed and quarantine such person, property, animal, or other
form of life or matter whatever. The quarantine may be based
only on a determination, with or without the benefit of a
hearing, that there is probable cause to believe that such
person, property, animal or other form of life or matter
whatever is extra-terrestrially exposed.

  4. Determine within the United States or within vessels or
vehicles of the United States the place, boundaries, and rules
of operation of necessary quarantine stations.

  5. Provide for guard services by contract or otherwise, as many
be necessary, to maintain security and inviolability of
quarantine stations and quarantined persons, property, animals
or other form of life or matter whatever.

  6. Provide for the subsistence, health and welfare of persons
quarantined under the provisions of this part.

  7. Hold such hearings at such times, in such manner and for
such purposes as may be desirable or necessary under this part,
including hearings for the purpose of creating a record for use
in making any determination under this part for the purpose of
reviewing any such determination.

#

1. During any period of announced quarantine, no person shall
enter or depart from the limits of the quarantine station
without permission of the cognizant NASA officer. During such
period, the posted perimeter of a quarantine station shall be
secured by armed guard.

  2. Any person who enters the limits of any quarantine station
during the quarantine period shall be deemed to have consented
to the quarantine of his person if it is determined that he is
or has become extra-terrestrially exposed.

  3. At the earliest practicable time, each person who is
quarantined by NASA shall be given a reasonable opportunity to
communicate by telephone with legal counsel or other persons of
his choice.

1211.107 Court or other process

# NASA officers and employees are prohibited from discharging
from the limits of a quarantine station any quarantined person,
property, animal or other form of life or matter whatever during
order or other request, order or demand an announced quarantine
period in compliance with a subpoena, show cause or any court or
other authority without the prior approval of the General
Counsel and the Administrator.

# Where approval to discharge a quarantined person, property,
animal or other form of life or matter whatever in compliance
with such a request, order or demand of any court or other
authority is not given, the person to whom it is directed shall,
if possible, appear in court or before the other authority and
respectfully state his inability to comply, relying for his
action on this 1211.107.

1211.108 Violations

Whoever willfully violates, attempts to violate, or conspires to
violate any provision of this part or any regulation or order
issued under this part or who enters or departs from the limits
of a quarantine station in disregard of the quarantine rules or
regulations or without permission of the NASA quarantine officer
shall be fined not more that $5,000 or imprisoned not more than
1 year, or both.



On 16 July 1969, a United States law was passed called the
"Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law" that made it illegal for the
public to come in contact with extra-terrestrials or their
vehicles. (Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal
Regulations). Anyone found guilty of such contact could face up
to one year imprisonment as well as a fine of $5000. Also, any
individual who had been "exposed" could be quarantined under
armed guard by the NASA administrator without a hearing.

The law was passed originally to protect Earth from possible
biological contamination resulting from the US Apollo Space
Program and other space exploration programs. It has been
suggested by researchers and scientists that the U.S. government
was very concerned that contact with extra-terrestrial bacteria
could result in a worldwide plague. The immune system of human
beings wouldn't be able to fight off extra-terrestrial bacteria,
so therefore any kind of "extra-terrestrial exposure" was taken
very seriously.

People in the UFO community especially were alarmed with the law
because its broad definitions could allow the US government to
prosecute people in NASA as well as individuals of the general
public who come into contact with extra-terrestrials and their
vehicles.

UFO and ET believers found it interesting that in one hand the
government was denying they had any interest in extra-
terrestrials, yet they had a law which forbid contact with ETs
and their craft.

1211.100 Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space Part 1211 - Extra-
terrestrial Exposure 1211.100 - Scope

This part establishes:

NASA policy, responsibility and authority to guard the Earth
against any harmful contamination or adverse changes in its
environment resulting from personnel, spacecraft and other
property returning to the Earth after landing on or coming
within the atmospheric envelope of a celestial body; and
security requirements, restrictions and safeguards that are
necessary in the interest of national security.

1211.101 - Applicability

The provisions of this part to all NASA manned and unmanned
space missions which land or come within the atmospheric
envelope of a celestial body and return to the Earth.

1211.102 - Definitions

"NASA" and the "Administrator" mean, respectively, the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration and the Administrator of
the National Aeronautics and Space Administration or his
authorized representative. "Extra-terrestrially exposed" means
the state of condition of any person, property, animal or other
form of life or matter whatever, who or which has: Touched
directly or come within the atmospheric envelope or any other
celestial body Touched directly or been in close proximity to
(or been exposed indirectly to) any person, property, animal or
other form of life or matter who or which has been extra-
terrestrially exposed by virtue of paragraph (b)(1) of this
section. For example, if person or thing "A" touches the surface
of the Moon, and on "A's" return to Earth, "B" touches "A" and,
subsequently, "C" touches "B", all of these - "A" through "C"
inclusive - would be extra-terrestrially exposed ("A" and "B"
directly; "C" indirectly). "Quarantine" means the detention,
examination and decontamination of any persons, property, animal
or other form of life or matter whatever that is extra-
terrestrially exposed, and includes the apprehension or seizure
of such person, property, animal or other form of life or matter
whatever. "Quarantine period" means a period of consecutive
calendar days as may be established in accordance with 1211.104


Administrative actions.

The Administrator or his designee..shall in his discretion:

Determine the beginning and duration of a quarantine period with
respect to any space mission; the quarantine period as it
applies to various life forms will be announced. Designate in
writing quarantine officers to exercise quarantine authority.
Determine that a particular person, property, animal, or other
form of life or matter, whatever is extra-terrestrially exposed
and quarantine such person, property, animal, or other form of
life or matter whatever. The quarantine may be based only on a
determination, with or without the benefit of a hearing, that
there is probable cause to believe that such person, property,
animal or other form of life or matter whatever is extra-
terrestrially exposed. Determine within the United States or
within vessels or vehicles of the United States the place,
boundaries, and rules of operation of necessary quarantine
stations. Provide for guard services by contract or otherwise,
as many be necessary, to maintain security and inviolability of
quarantine stations and quarantined persons, property, animals
or other form of life or matter whatever. Provide for the
subsistence, health and welfare of persons quarantined under the
provisions of this part. Hold such hearings at such times, in
such manner and for such purposes as may be desirable or
necessary under this part, including hearings for the purpose of
creating a record for use in making any determination under this
part for the purpose of reviewing any such determination. During
any period of announced quarantine, no person shall enter or
depart from the limits of the quarantine station without
permission of the cognizant NASA officer. During such period,
the posted perimeter of a quarantine station shall be secured by
armed guard. Any person who enters the limits of any quarantine
station during the quarantine period shall be deemed to have
consented to the quarantine of his person if it is determined
that he is or has become extra-terrestrially exposed. At the
earliest practicable time, each person who is quarantined by
NASA shall be given a reasonable opportunity to communicate by
telephone with legal counsel or other persons of his choice.

1211.107 Court or other process

NASA officers and employees are prohibited from discharging from
the limits of a quarantine station any quarantined person,
property, animal or other form of life or matter whatever during
order or other request, order or demand an announced quarantine
period in compliance with a subpoena, show cause or any court or
other authority without the prior approval of the General
Counsel and the Administrator. Where approval to discharge a
quarantined person, property, animal or other form of life or
matter whatever in compliance with such a request, order or
demand of any court or other authority is not given, the person
to whom it is directed shall, if possible, appear in court or
before the other authority and respectfully state his inability
to comply, relying for his action on this 1211.107.

1211.108 Violations

Whoever willfully violates, attempts to violate, or conspires to
violate any provision of this part or any regulation or order
issued under this part or who enters or departs from the limits
of a quarantine station in disregard of the quarantine rules or
regulations or without permission of the NASA quarantine officer
shall be fined not more that $5,000 or imprisoned not more than
1 year, or both.








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   May > May 15

              Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:58:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:59:58 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - White


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:31:12 -0400
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

<snip>

 >I think I'm gonna need a ruling on this one. First, I don't
 >believe that Nick Balaskas found the smoking gun of Ufology in
 >an Ottawa govt. document archive. And as far as I understand,
 >the abductions are not exactly pleasant experiences. Also,
 >you're basing this statement on third-hand testimony, from a
 >_single_ alien abductee ask to pick out the aliens in a human
 >lineup.

 >Eleanor, surely you must know this doesn't hold an ounce of
 >water.

It makes as much sense to me as any of the other ideas as to
what the aliens are up to.

I don't _know_ whether it's true or not, but it's your privilege
to _believe_ it doesn't, right?


Eleanor White








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   May > May 16

              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:09:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:38:59 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:37:56 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >So you, Eleanor White, have officially been hassled by The Man?

All I can say is I've been "hassled" (worse, actually) by an
entity which has tacit support from "The Man", as have many
citizens of democratic countries who now know that real life
doesn't always match constitutional principles.

 >You should have told me from the beginning that you think you've
 >been stalked by covert government agencies for the last 23
 >years. I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to convince you of
 >anything. You're clearly a believer, tried and true.

No, I am an experiencer, and the physical evidence is available
to be seen by anyone, just as the evidence in the form of
scoops, scars, and implants is available from the abductees.
  Just as the burn marks and impressions at sites where UFOs have
been seen to land is available for a period after the event.

Because someone believes something does not preclude them from
fairly evaluating the evidence.  If belief was truly a
disqualifier, then the criminal court system is a sham and
should be shut down immediately.  Both sides have very firm
beliefs, yet are permitted to present evidence and evaluate the
evidence from the opposite side.

Judges don't disqualify either side because they believe their
version of events is the right one, do they?

I would think that someone who is interested in the truth would
work with evidence, rather than trying to disqualify other
people who believe things.


Eleanor White









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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:17:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:45:07 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Kaeser


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:13:15 -0700
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

Larry wrote in response to Amy and Richard:

 >Hello Amy, Dick:

 >If I understand Dick properly (stop me if I don't) he was saying
 >that the saner UFO students have long noted IFOs. I'm sure he
 >never meant to imply that they all have websites up full of
 >them.  I would have written "and/or" in his sentence above to
 >clarify that.

 >Relatively few put up web pages of IFOs, even those of us who
 >recognize them as such,  preferring to concentrate on the
 >stranger cases which do exist in the literature.

<snip>

I'm curious as to how IFO is defined in this context.

Is there an assumption that all IFOs have mundane explanations?
It would seem to me that researchers would be very interested in
cases where the witnesses have identified an unknown object as
an alien space craft, which would also make it an "IFO".


Steve







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                       'Lifters' Look Very Interesting

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:21:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:46:44 -0400
Subject: 'Lifters' Look Very Interesting


This is a technology I hadn't been aware of until recently, but
could be some sort of breakthrough.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm

Now if I can just ride on one to work and avoid the traffic.


Steve








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                       Re: UFOs & Scandinavia? - Cunha

From: Pedro Luz Cunha <pplcunha@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:09:12 -0300 (ART)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:51:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs & Scandinavia? - Cunha


 >From: Thiago Ticchetti
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 9:45:53 -0300
 >Subject: UFOs & Scandinavia?


 >Hello List

 >I am asking again some help.

 >I am writing articles for UFO Magazine Brazil about the UFO
 >activity in all the continents.

 >I wrote about Cubaa and Africa, and now I am starting to write
 >about UFO activity in Scandinavia.

 >So, would you help me sending cases and information?



Hello List, Thiago,

Thiago, you can get some data on Hessdalen Project at:

http://www.itacomm.net/PH/

and

http://hessdalen.hiof.no/index_e.shtml

Very interesting about research in Norway.


Pedro Cunha






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:14:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:43:42 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:41:40 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

<snip>

 >So, more or less, you believe what people tell you. And if
 >they've got letters after their name (oh, say... Ph.D), then
 >you believe them more - because who with a Ph. D would lie? Who
 >with a Ph. D would lie?

I never said that, and it isn't true anyway.

 >BTW, I hope your references consist of more than just websites.
 >Because I have a website. I could put all kinds of stuff on it
 >and say it was true.

I use web sites so you and other Listers can look up things, for
convenience. This is common in virtually all fields today.

 >>Please don't confuse "believe" with "guaranteeing total
 >>accuracy". That's not what belief is. My beliefs get adjusted
 >>every time better evidence comes along. I think believing gets
 >>undeserved bad press. I never guarantee total accuracy with
 >>anything I haven't participated in.

 >>I am not ashamed to believe things.

 >Of course you wouldn't. You believe things so easily, Eleanor.

It would seem you have a few beliefs too, about who is and who
isn't qualified to judge life's events, right?


Eleanor White









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                    Crop Circles Puzzle Queensland Farmer

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:24:16 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:13:52 -0400
Subject: Crop Circles Puzzle Queensland Farmer


Source: The Courier-Mail - Brisbane, Queensland, Australia

http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6439851%255E3102,00.
html

May 16, 2003

The overnight appearance of dozens of bizarre crop circles in a
field of sorghum has spooked a Sunshine Coast hinterland farmer
and his workers.

The phenomenon, which was accompanied by loud "zapping noises",
a flash of green light, lost power and barking dogs has the
Gowen family of Glass House Mountains flumoxed.

Fifth generation land owner Kel Gowen said he was woken about
midnight on Wednesday by two loud "zaps".

His farm hand, Noel Brady, whose cottage overlooks the 4ha of
sorghum, said he was also woken by the first zapping sound,
which was followed by the loss of power and bright green
flashes.

Mr Gowen said it was only during a routine check of his property
early yesterday morning that he noticed the 30 flattened circles
in the sorghum.

Mr Gowen said his family had never taken notice of stories of
crop circles or UFOs.










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               Re: The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:34:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:18:28 -0400
Subject: Re: The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law - Groff


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:00:03 -0300
 >Subject: The Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law

 >On 16 July 1969, a United States law was passed called the
 >"Extra-Terrestrial Exposure Law" that made it illegal for the
 >public to come in contact with extra-terrestrials or their
 >vehicles. (Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal
 >Regulations). Anyone found guilty of such contact could face up
 >to one year imprisonment as well as a fine of $5000. Also, any
 >individual who had been "exposed" could be quarantined under
 >armed guard by the NASA administrator without a hearing.

<snip>

According to Snopes-Urban Legends, this "law" was removed in
1991. Even when in effect it was only a crime to make contact
then not submit to "quarantine" (which may have been a
diplomatic way of saying incarceration).

http://www.snopes.com/legal/et.htm#repeal


Terry Groff

http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

Name a Star!
The International Star Registry
http://shorterlink.com/?6A4ODK








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               CI: The Face on Mars: Where Would "Skeptics" Be

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:50:04 -0400
Subject: CI: The Face on Mars: Where Would "Skeptics" Be



Cydonian Imperative
5-15-03

The Face on Mars: Where Would "Skeptics" Be Without It?

by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)


The mainstream skeptical community, composed of such entities as
the Skeptics Society and the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, rallies around a few
notorious icons in order to prove its debunking prowess.
Foremost among these are the alleged Roswell crash and the Face
on Mars (both of which receive their share of recycled wrath in
the current edition of "Skeptic" magazine).

Unfortunately, both "Skeptic" and CSICOP's "Skeptical Inquirer"
are curiously unenlightening publications. Instead of taking on
pseudoscience and popular delusion (and few in our media-soaked
culture would argue that we're adrift in a veritable sea of the
latter) with finesse and wit, their articles are routinely
devoted to the same subjects: tried-and-true straw men that move
ideology as effectively as Wal-Mart moves power tools and dog
food. To the self-proclaimed skeptical elite this repetition is
somehow reassuring, like attending a church service every Sunday
to sing the same comforting hymns. Among the favorite
"debunking" hymns:

1.) Why it's improbable that aliens are visiting us, therefore
neatly excluding attention from the continuing spectacle of UFOs
in our skies.

2.) How sleep paralysis explains all perceived alien abductions.

3.) How a weather balloon and a healthy dose of mass hysteria
fooled an elite air base into thinking it had recovered pieces
of a "flying saucer."

4.) How tricks of light and shadow create illusory "faces" on
other planets.

Ironically, the so-called "fame" of the Face on Mars can
probably be more correctly attributed to the repeated
"debunkings" it receives in the pages of skeptical publications
than popular recognition, which is scarce at best. Most people
don't realize there is a face-like formation on Mars until they
stumble across a page devoted to its nonexistence in an
astronomy book.

The mission of the hard-core debunkers is not to separate truth
from fiction, but rather rouse components of the fringe-science
pantheon from their complacent slumber and then slaughter them
for all to see. The articles in the "Skeptical Inquirer"
denouncing UFOs, crop circles and Martian megaliths are
presented with all the candor and good taste of medieval witch-
burnings.

[image]

Skeptics often seize on the worst available imagery to "make
their case," as they did after NASA released the "contrast
enhanced" image of the Face released by JPL in 1998 (left).
Image courtesy Lan Fleming.

"Skeptic" sometimes aspires to a commendable (if condescending)
"educational outreach" modality. But make no mistake: "Skeptic"
is written for those who have made up their minds, not neutral
parties. The current cover story on the Roswell incident is a
case in point. Essentially, it's a watered-down reprint of the
Air Force's 1997 "Case Closed" report on the controversial
events in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. The question that bubbles
instantly to mind after reading it: Why bother? If the case has
been "closed" since 1997, why the loud cover story in 2003?

Even mainstream news publications poked fun at the Air Force's
attempt to explain apparent alien bodies by citing balloon tests
involving "anthropomorphic dummies." Yet "Skeptic" seems frozen
in time, recounting the dummy story as if it had just broken.

Most magazine editors would concede that this is pitifully bad
journalism. But "Skeptic" isn't out to conduct journalism so
much as issue official doctrine -- even if this means repeating
itself. The goal, as always, is to reassure. This overriding
agenda has a debilitating and obvious effect on objectivity.

For example, selective omission is not only tolerated, but
actively encouraged. Witness an issue of the "Skeptical
Inquirer" a few years ago when the Roswell case was hot news.
CSICOP relied on the testimony of Gerald Anderson, a known
hoaxer who claimed to have seen a crashed space vehicle and
bodies, in order to strengthen the already-ludicrous
"anthropomorphic dummy" explanation.

Before exposed as a charlatan by the UFO community, Anderson had
described alien bodies in a manner that vaguely coincided with
the acceptable mainstream view: that the "aliens" were humanoid
mannequins tossed out of airplanes. The "Inquirer" knew
perfectly well that Anderson had been debunked (and moreover,
not by one of their own). But since a single element of his
otherwise unlikely story melded with its own conclusion, his
testimony was craftily "repurposed."

Readers who had actually followed the Roswell controversy and
had taken the time to weigh the evidence constituted only a
small percentage of the magazine's readership, so the risk of
the truth emerging about Anderson's "testimony" was deemed low.
But staunch "SI" readers would simply never recognize the
magazine's mauling of the facts. And that, it would seem, was
precisely what CSICOP intended.

The logic above is the logic of the self-same cults and quacks
would-be "debunkers" endlessly lament. When you commit yourself
to an organization's definition of "skepticism" -- which in
practice is seldom the correct definition -- you run the risk of
being taken for many long rides. Your reward is a certain
smugness and vicarious sense of intellectual infallibility.
After all, it's much more academically becoming to be seen
reading the latest "Skeptic" than, say, "UFO Universe."

[image]

The "Picasso Face," a rendering of the image above achieved by
gross misuse of orthorectification ("nostril" features are at
far right instead of center). This image has become the "final
word" for most debunkers despite high-resolution overhead
imagery.

The new issue of "Skeptic" features a rote "debunking" of the
Face on Mars in its "Junior Skeptic" section. This issue's
"Junior Skeptic" is committed to banishing all notions of
interstellar flight from impressionable young minds by raising
such anthropocentric biases as cost, as if beings from another
star system will inevitably share the financial infrastructure
of the modern United States.

The editors at "Skeptic" should -- and probably do -- know
better. After all, ancient Egyptians built incredibly
"expensive" pyramids because they were considered a necessary
and defining aspect of their culture. Might not interstellar
flight be a suitably defining characteristic of an advanced
extraterrestrial civilization?

Junior Skeptics are also treated to a side-by-side comparison of
the Face on Mars as photographed by the Viking mission in the
1970s and by the Mars Global Surveyor and told that what they're
seeing is a "hill." No resources are given, and the images
featured are of the "thumbnail" variety, which of course
eliminates any sort of fair-minded assessment. This is precisely
"Skeptic's" intent, and it perfectly reflects the myopic "fact-
management" regime controlled by mainstream "skepticism."

All of this results in an ugly false dichotomy between so-called
"skeptics" and so-called "true believers." No doubt many indeed
believe that the Face is an extraterrestrial monument, and there
may even be some soft-spoken souls at the Skeptics Society and
CSICOP who are willing to take a good look at the evidence for
artificiality. But lightweight dismissals of the sort found in
"Junior Skeptic" continue to be the rule. Illustrated books on
space exploration include snide, seemingly devastating comments
about the Face almost as if under obligation.

The editors and writers behind such lofty sentiments think
they're acting out of a pursuit of scientific truth, and this is
where pop-skepticism is most hurtful. By fostering a spurious
"us vs. them" mentality toward the anomalous, the producers of
Skepticism(tm) provide an unprepared audience with an instant
dogmatic certainty that specific things simply cannot be and
that those who suggest otherwise are, by definition, hucksters
and pseudoscientists.

When the "Skeptical Inquirer" ran a recent cover article on the
Face (which it subjected to an interesting graphical filter to
help stifle the feature's likeness), it didn't have much to say
about the Face at all. Rather, it dissected the merits and
motivations of Richard Hoagland, who, rightly or wrongly, is
considered the most readily apparent human face behind the
Cydonia controversy.

Skeptics groups rail against "pseudoscience." But perhaps the
time has come for independent thinkers, armed with real
knowledge as opposed to lofty (if false) conceptions, to begin
questioning the agenda behind pseudoskepticism.

-end-






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   May > May 16

                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:18:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:59:38 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - King


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:38:37 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:04:56 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:52:55 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>Something has come to my attention. Originally, I wrote:

 >>>>>>Contact Tommy King or Bruce Maccabee privately and ask them for
 >>>>>>their permission to use some examples of the many
 >>>>>>_genuinely_anomalous_ aerial objects that they have archived at
 >>>>>>their respective web sites.

 >>You responded:

 >>>>>I've already contacted both gentlemen.

 >>Your reply gives the casual reader the false impression that you
 >>contacted Tommy King and Bruce Maccabee in 'response' to my
 >>recent suggestion. At least that was the impression that I got.
 >>Tommy King informs me that you contacted him more than a half a
 >>year ago on an entirely different matter and that you refused to
 >>follow-up on some evidence he was trying to present to you. (?)

 >You suggested that I contact these gentlemen and I said I had
 >_already_ contacted them. What's so hard about that, John?
 >You're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 >I also note, with some amusement, that you don't indicate why I
 >contacted Mr. King. I contacted him about the alleged UFO
 >footage shot by Tim Edwards posted at

 >http://home.gzinc.com/mmz/tim.htm,

 >some of which is posted on Mr. King's web site at

 >http://www.ufovideo.com/videos.php

 >(you have to enter a username and password to view the footage).

 >I wrote to Tom first complimenting him on his work of
 >stabilizing the Mexico UFO images and tried to share what I had
 >learned about the Tim Edwards alleged UFO footage. Below is the
 >passage from my original letter to Tom:

 >"In reference to the video images from Tim Edwards on your web
 >site, I have replicated these images by video taping spider silk
 >reflecting sun light. I came across it by accident while filming
 >various images of birds, bugs, debris and conventional aircraft
 >in flight for my IFO Database. I happened to see the spider silk
 >images in footage I'd shot one day so I set out to deliberately
 >film spider silk reflecting sunlight to compare to Mr. Edwards
 >footage of an alleged UFO. I have a lot of video footage of
 >spider silk reflecting sunlight and have been able to replicate
 >almost all the images and characteristics in Mr. Edward's
 >footage including the "rippling lights" seen in Tim's footage
 >and other characteristics of the alleged UFO.

 >I can create AVI's but not MPG's (working on obtaining the
 >software)

I have noticed you have been saying that for years now, along
with you don't have the money to afford putting video clips on
the Web. Skynet hosts nearly 300 Meg online free of charge and
only costs the amount of taking your loved one to a movie. We've
been online doing that for over 7 years now.

Your excuses for not having resources to put up clips is wearing
thin, because if you really wanted to, or cared enough this
obstacle certainly won't be a problem. $10 bucks a month to
display your research is not a monumental task to ask of a vocal
UFO researcher.

 >so I don't have any actual footage on the internet at
 >the moment. I can send you a copy of the footage if you would
 >like to compare it to Mr. Edward's footage but you can easily
 >replicate these results yourself by video taping various strands
 >of spider silk reflecting sunlight from various angles. Just
 >find a strand of spider silk blowing free in the wind or
 >suspended and find the angle which best reflects the sun light
 >and video tape it. When you review the footage, you will find
 >that only the sunlit portions of the spider silk tend to show up
 >on video and will display all the characteristics in the Tim
 >Edwards footage."

 >To which Tom replied that he would like to review the
 >information and footage I had in reference to Mr. Edwards
 >footage. I then spent part of my afternoon putting together 3
 >AVI's from the footage I had shot of spider silk reflecting
 >sunlight and posted it on a web page for Tom to view with ease
 >and offered to send him a copy of the original video footage if
 >he wanted to give me an address where I could send the footage.

 >Tom's reply:

 >"I'm having some "mine type errors" when trying to get those AVI
 >files. I guess my browser choice does have the same codecs you
 >do. Do you need some assistance for MPG or MOV? I might be able
 >to help ya."

 >I find it interesting that I had presented the materials, AVI's,
 >in a simple format yet Mr. King, who supposedly had all these
 >video skills, couldn't view the AVI's? Instead he offers
 >assistance in converting the footage to other formats. I told
 >Tom I could use any suggestions he might care to give.

Amy had it ever occurred to you that you might not have rendered
the AVI properly so others could view it? You were most likely
rendering in proprietary codecs that came with your video
capture software that only can be viewed with the capture
device. I have ran into this problem several times trading clips
on the web. But as you stated you can't do MPGs and only AVI's
so its your own limited software that presented the problem.

AVI creates problems for Mac users and some PC users alike and
I'll bet many people still can't view your AVI file to this day.
MPG I is a universal format that you should have used to begin
with. There is alot of shareware out there to convert AVI-MPG is
you ever bother to look.

What is the name of the video capture hardware and software you
are using to do these IFO 101 studies?

 >Tom and I then engage in a discussion about the witnesses and
 >what they claimed they saw that day. I asked several questions
 >but Tom never answered them. Instead, Tom refers me to old
 >reruns of Mr. Edwards story as presented on Sightings and other
 >programs. To which I replied:

Yes and on some the shows Tim Edwards were on had many of the
"witnesses", something Amy didn't want to deal with and she
simply ignored them altogether and only wanted people to focus
on her IFO claims.

 >"Yes, I have viewed some of the old programs and video tapes
 >that include Tim's video and witness testimony. As I said, I
 >don't know how the other witnesses fit in but I am quite sure
 >Tim video taped spider silk reflecting sunlight. In fact, in one
 >of the video stills on his web site, you can make out where the
 >silk strand appears to have been attached to his house or some
 >structure on his roof (see attached - I enhanced the still to
 >help you see the white line that extends downward at an angle,
 >therefore not likely to be video artifact, and to the edge of
 >the roof). You can also see where the spider silk strand appears
 >attached between the "UFO" and to the roof in places in Tim's
 >video if you look for it. If you look at it as only a UFO, then
 >you will not look for the rest of the information available in
 >the footage."

I have been to Tim Edwards house 3 times and met most of the
witnesses to this event. I also have a digitally mastered copy
of his footage. I have stabilized his video when its near the
gutter of his house. Go to my website and download the clip.
Notice how the object 'rotates' in the clip. Something a spider
web can't do if its attached to the roof of the house.

 >I indicated that if you look closely, you can even see where the
 >spider silk (aka "UFO") in Mr. Edwards' footage is visible but
 >Tom didn't seem interested neither did he reflect having any
 >cognizance of what I was trying to show him.

Amy that is a lie! You are a master of taking everything out of
context. You contacted me months ago, but try to appear to this
List that you recently contacting me in reference to John's
post.

 >Here is the original web page I tried to share with Mr. King
 >(with a few additions and modifications due to new materials
 >added and new address):

 >http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/comparison_avi.htm
 >(click on "Refresh" to start the AVI's again)

 >Tom's final reply after having _never reviewed the footage_ I
 >was trying to share with him:

 >>Now if Tim and family watched this thru binoculars I find it
 >>hard to believe it was a spiderweb on the roof.

 >I then realized that Tom was not interested in reviewing the
 >information I had to share as his mind was made up. Not once did
 >Tom take me up on my offer to send him a copy of the footage I
 >had of spider silk reflecting sunlight - which I offered to send
 >repeatedly. This indicated to me that Tom was not going to
 >consider alternative theories or evidence and I was wasting my
 >time.

Putting words in my mouth, huh, Amy? You contacted me, trying to
convince me of your spider web theory which we researched 7-8
years ago! What she said above simply isn't true. Read on...

 >Now tell me, John, just who was it that really "refused follow-
 >up"? Hmmmm?

It's Amy who refuses to follow up on anything that don't fit
into her flimsy investigations. She is so convinced its a spider
web and refuses to deal with the eyewitnesses to this sighting.

A cook at Tim's restarant saw this object 2 1/2 miles away! But
that didn't fit nicely into Amys preconieved idea of what
happened. There was also a DJ that saw the object about 1 hour
before Tim did in another location and a cop saw it at another
location after Tim had finished video taping it.

It became apparent Amy didn't want to deal with the witnesses at
all since it dismissed her theory. I offered her Tim's home
phone number to contact him directly and get data straight from
the horses mouth. Her reply? You might ask .....

{never mind, forget I ever brought this up}.

I was shocked! Here I have this person I don't know offering a
theory Tim, I, and others had looked at years ago. She wasted my
time with uploading improperly formatted AVI files, then I cut
to the chase and tell her to call Tim and she does an "about
face" and disappears and tells me to forget about it. Now she
claims I didn't want to look at her AVI's or a tape when she
high tailed it out of here instead of calling Tim Edwards and
getting first hand reports.

Now she tells this List I ignored her evidence and has totally
spun her story.

Let me ask Amy this. Have you ever spoke to Tim Edwards, or E-
Mailed him, or attempted to do so? How and where did you get a
copy of his footage to study? What generation is this copy you
have and how long is the running time? How many witness were
there to this event?

Those are general questions you should have answers to before
you begin a serious study of this case.

Also have you ever spoken or E-Mailed Anthony Woods? You have
dismissed his footage, also based upon web clips, recently. I
guess grainy clips, 1/20 of the footage are enough for you to
dismiss a case publically.

I certainly don't think you have any right to dictate analysis
to this List and attempt to give lessons in video when you never
bother to contact orginators of the videos you debunk.

Here is the big question you seem to be avoiding. Are there any
UFO videos out there Amy? You certainly have the ability to
explain them without ever bothering to speak directly with the
person who shot the video and obtain good copies.


Tom King
www.ufovideo.com








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 16

             Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:01:15 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:03:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information - Ledger


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:33:54 +0100
 >Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:50:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:40:24 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:10:52 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: The U.S. Government & UFO Information

 >>><snip>

 >>>>Yeah, but for a group of inept people, they're doing a pretty
 >>>>good job of keeping a lid on the whole deal. We can call them
 >>>>the stupid government all we want, but they can't be that dumb
 >>>>if they've supposedly blinded the planet for the last fifty years.

 >>>Ahh, come on guys and girls, we all know its down to big dollar
 >>>signs in the eyes of the government. Let's not mince words over
 >>>trifles. If UFO and ET were said to be real by them then the
 >>>spin-off technology and dollars made would be much less. Plus
 >>>there is the superiority of armanent, defence etc.

 >>Yeah, but if you listen to some '"ufologists", the spin-off
 >>technology _is_ here. That DVD players and microwave ovens are
 >>not really natural progressions of our technology but reverse-
 >>engineered goodies from the brave aliens that died during the
 >>Roswell UFO crash of '47.

In text:

Sheesh. Some guy writes a book called The Day After Roswell and
we take the rap for it. Why ufologists.

That another one of those skeptic ploys, like "true believers".

 >Don't know about those things Ian, but often wonder why we
 >originally had hexadecimal (8 binary digits) rather than 10. ET
 >grays supposably have 8 digits, we have 10 (fingers and thumbs).
 >Also wonder where the idea came from for transistors, optic data
 >transfer, the shape of some cutting edge planes etc.

Sure, Colin, that's what must have happened. Transistors-The
Bell Labs. Optic Data Transfer-Someone invented spun glass and
shot light through it. Said hey Alex Bell was talking about
sending information via light waves back in the 1800s. Nothing
new there.

And there are no cutting-edge planes. They might be cutting-edge
if you're Wilbur Wright and you see one from his end of the
progression of aviation, but from my end as an aviator, just
more horsepower and more money. A logical extention of the
technology. As is the case with the automobile we really haven't
come up with anything new. The aeroplane got a boot in the butt
with the turbine jet about halfway through its evolution. But
the principle of flight is still the same. Lift exceeds weight.
Thrust exceeds drag.

 >Bet you that some ufologists claim that telepathic ETs gave the
 >inventers the ideas unbeknownst to them if the ET technology
 >wasn't back engineered.

Well I'm sure someone will take that statement Colin and quote
it as a given a few months from now. That should help make the
statement so.


Don Ledger







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   May > May 16

                Re: Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated -

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:07:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:07:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated -


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:17:07 -0400
 >Subject: Ecuadorian Gnome Sighting Investigated

 >Police investigating gnome reports in Ecuador

 >Police in a town in Ecuador are investigating reports of a
 >little, green man seen walking down the street.

 >A number of Quininde residents called police after seeing what
 >they described as a "gnome" in the town centre.

 >They all described the creature as being very small, green and
 >ugly.

 >Marco Preciado told Diario Extra online: "It was less than three
 >feet tall and I saw it three times. I tried to follow him but he
 >disappeared."

 >Cecilia Cedeno who owns a liquor shop, said: "He appeared in
 >front of the shop to a group of people. He gave a loud laugh and
 >ran away."

 >A police spokesperson said: "People are scared and fascinated by
 >the story. We are investigating and we believe it is someone
 >trying to make fun of the whole town."

 >Source: Ananova.com


Hi everyone!

A few years ago I was sent photos, and even actual bones - by
mail - of what was claimed to be an Ecuadorian elf or possibly
an ET. When examined by various experts here, including someone
with the Royal Ontario Museum who is very familiar with South
American animals as well as several forensic scientists, they
positively identified the bones as those of a two-year-old human
child. Some of the bones were altered to make them look unusual.
I returned the bones to the sender from Ecuador.

According to a caretaker who works at the Behavioural Sciences
Building at York University, several times he and others have
seen a mischievous old man at the bottom of one stairwell at
night who seems to enjoy startling people before vanishing into
thin air!

With the possible exception of the huge and continuing numbers
of so-called 'chemtrail' sightings (I am surprised anyone is
still alive on Earth!), I think it is safe to say that there are
more such "gnome" stories than there are reports of UFOs sighted
in the skies above. Just like UFOs too, most of these stories
can be readily explained as honest misinterpretations or just
someone "trying to make fun" as the Ecuadorian police
spokesperson suspected in the gnome article.

I wonder if the same Ecuadorian elf person(s) are behind these
recent gnome sightings.


Nick Balaskas







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   May > May 16

                        More Terrace, B.C. Sightings

From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:47:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:10:27 -0400
Subject: More Terrace, B.C. Sightings


Terrace, British Columbia

Date:  May 13, 2003
Time:  approx: 11:35 p.m.
Toll Free Hotline

Three witnesses

I received a call from a woman who reported that her and two
other witnesses who were on Ferry Island at the Ferry Island
campground when they saw the weirdest thing happening in the sky
above them, or over Ferry Island. She told me that they watched
a number of funny colored lights (blue/red/yellow/white)
traveling in their direction from the north. What made this a
strange looking sight was that the lights seemed to pulsate, and
only the white lights on the object grew very bright in
intensity, and the other colored lights stayed at the same
brightness. As the object drew closer to their location it
seemed as if the lights, in a ring, surrounded a dark solid
object which was in the center. From the glow off the lights
they noted the dark object in the center was completely round in
shape, with this ring of colored lights running around it. The
object moved very quickly across the sky heading south. The
approx length of the sighting lasted about 10 seconds before
they lost sight of it due to the trees. She said it traveled in
a straight line and up rather high in the sky, but low enough to
catch a good look at it. No sound was heard coming from it and
no tail was observed.

HBCC UFO Note: Last year in 2002 I had a similar sighting report
come in from two Arrow truck drivers who were carrying
concentrate ore from the mine here in Houston, B.C. Two trucks
had pulled over to the side of the highway for 10 minutes at
Meziadin Junction to watch an object which sounds like the same
thing here in the report above.

Thank you to the witnesses for their report.

---------

Terrace, British Columbia

Date:  May 10, 2003
Time:  10:55 p.m.
Toll Free Hotline
One witness

On May 10, 2003 at 10:55 p.m. a witness living in Terrace, B.C.
was outside burning wood in a barrel, his girlfriend had left to
go inside. The witness was sitting on a bench watching the fire
when he looked up into the southwestern part of the sky and saw
a small white colored light heading to the northeast. The light
was rather bright and traveling quickly. He viewed the light for
approx: 15 seconds, it blinked a couple of times while he
watched it before it finally disappeared.

HBCC UFO Note: Possible satellite?

Thank you to the witness for their report.


Brian Vike

HBCC UFO Research
http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   May > May 16

                                Rods Exposed

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:21:00 -0400
Subject: Rods Exposed


Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
called "Rods" phenomenon at:

http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

Last fall I noticed insects flying around a light in the Wal-
Mart parking lot and out of the corner of my eye, they looked
just like the images being presented for years as "rods".
  Shortly afterwards, the insect population decreased so I
couldn't catch them flying around the lights with my video
camera.  I have been waiting all winter for the insects to
return.

On May 5th, 2003, I finally got my chance to test my hypothesis
and spent several hours filming insects flying near the lights
in the parking lot near our one-and-only McDonalds restaurant.
  I filmed the insects (seemed like hundreds of them) with
various shutter speeds but got the best results capturing "rod"
like images by using the Sports setting.  Even through the
viewfinder, I could see the "rods" (aka insects, bugs) flying
near the lights.

Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
among us will know rods are really insects.

I encourage anyone interested to go to a parking lot at night
with your camcorder set on "Sports", aim and focus your camera
on the insects flying close to the light, record, then review
the footage in slow motion to see for yourself (most of the time
you don't even need to review in slow motion).

But please, do not make DVD's, videos, etc. and try to sell your
images as "UFO's" or "Rods"! It's time to stop this type of
hoax.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert








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   May > May 16

                  University Profs Not Above 'Superstition'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:35:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:35:06 -0400
Subject: University Profs Not Above 'Superstition'



Source: Leicester Mercury - UK

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=42629&command=displ
ayContent&sourceNode=42628&contentPK=5568141


The Truth Is Out There

By Tom Pegden

10:30 - 14 May 2003

You would expect scientists to be the first to pour scorn on
stories of alien landings and haunted houses.

However, new research has shown that scientists at the
University of Leicester are not immune to superstition. A survey
of professors has found they do not dismiss the existence of
ghosts or the idea that aliens may once have landed on earth.

They will even go as far as to say certain crystals may be able
to keep you healthy and ouija boards could make contact with the
other side.

However, they readily dismissed two of the nation's most popular
superstitions - astrology and palmistry.

Eighteen professors and honorary fellows from the University of
Leicester and Waikato University in New Zealand were
interviewed.

The study, submitted to the International Journal of Science
Education, was carried out by Dr Richard Coll and Dr Neil
Taylor.

Dr Coll, an honorary visiting fellow at Leicester from the
University of Waikato, said: "We investigated scientists'
perceptions about superstitions and new-age beliefs.

"We were interested to try to understand how scientists think,
how they weigh evidence and judge testimony.

"Two things stimulated the research; one was a study of UK
schoolchildren that showed, despite years of science education,
many students were highly superstitious.

"Second, was an observation by the researchers that many reports
in the science education literature work from a prior assumption
that scientists work and think in certain ways - specifically
that they are totally objective.

"We were suspicious of this rather simplistic stance and decided
it warranted investigation."

Dr Taylor, who was a lecturer in primary science education at
the University of Leicester when the study was conducted, is now
at the University of New England, Australia. He said: "The
findings were remarkable and provided a fascinating insight into
the way scientists think. Many were much more open-minded than
we thought about things such as water-divining and acupuncture.

"A few were even open-minded about things such as the healing
powers of crystals, or that aliens have visited the earth and
that some houses are haunted."

Dr Coll said: "One would have expected them to say these things
were complete nonsense - they didn't.

"The ones they were more likely to believe in were aliens and
ghosts - the latter surprised me."

They concluded although the scientists liked to base their ideas
on hard facts, they were also ready to consider the unusual.

Stuart Warburton, managing curator at Belgrave Hall, reputedly
one of Leicestershire's most haunted locations, said he wasn't
surprised by the findings.

He said: "I've heard things and experienced things in Belgrave,
but until I've seen a ghost I can't say.

"That's not to say there are not certain things that can't be
explained in life."


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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                          Secrecy News -- 05/16/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:51:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:55:05 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/16/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 42
May 16, 2003


**      CONGRESS COULD RELEASE THE 9/11 JOINT INQUIRY REPORT
**      GUATEMALA 1954 DECLASSIFIED
**      NSA FOIA EXEMPTION DRAWS CRITICISM
**      UK:  SPECIAL OPERATIONS EXECUTIVE FILES
**      NORTH KOREA ON FAILURE OF DENUCLEARIZATION


CONGRESS COULD RELEASE THE 9/11 JOINT INQUIRY REPORT

Five months after the completion of an 800 page report by the
congressional joint inquiry into the September 11 terrorist
attacks, the report remains classified and unavailable to the
public.  But if Congress had the will, it could release the
report itself.

Under a little-known provision of the rules that established the
House and Senate select intelligence committees, Congress
granted itself the authority to disclose whatever information it
deems to be in the public interest.

"The select committee may... disclose publicly any information
in the possession of such committee after a determination by
such committee that the public interest would be served by such
disclosure," according to Section 8 of the 1976 Senate
Resolution 400.  A similar provision appears in Section 7 of
House Rule XLVIII.

In cases where the information in question is classified, the
intelligence committee must notify the President five days in
advance of disclosing the information.  If the President objects
in writing, the disclosure may nevertheless proceed, but in that
case it must be approved by the full Senate or House.

See Section 8 of Senate Resolution 400 here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s022503.html#8

This authority has never been exercised, but it remains in
effect. And it seems uniquely suited to the present
circumstance.

Senator Bob Graham, a co-chair of the congressional joint
inquiry, has certified that disclosure of the inquiry report is
a matter of rather urgent public interest.

"By continuing to classify that information so that it's not
available to the American people, the American people have been
denied important information for their own protection, for the
protection of the communities," Senator Graham said on CBS Face
the Nation May 11.  "Local agencies have been denied information
which would help them be more effective. First responders and
the American people do not have the information upon which they
can hold the administration and responsible agencies
accountable." See:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/12/ftn/main553425.shtml

A CIA spokesman said that progress was being made on
declassification of the report and that a sanitized version of
the report might still be released by the end of the month.

See "CIA responds to Florida lawmakers' call for terror report"
by Tamara Lytle, Orlando Sentinel, May 13, linked from here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/05/index.html

But if the promised disclosure does not take place, or if the
released document is censored beyond reason, Congress has
another option.


GUATEMALA 1954 DECLASSIFIED

The U.S. State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency
have declassified and published thousands of pages of documents
concerning the U.S. covert action in Guatemala that led to the
overthrow of Guatemalan President Jacobo Arbenz Guzman in 1954.

The overthrow of Arbenz had profound consequences for Guatemala,
the CIA and the conduct of the cold war generally that were
explored at a public conference sponsored by the State
Department May 15-16.

The conference coincided with the publication of a new
supplementary volume of Foreign Relations of the United States
(1954) devoted to Guatemala, 1952-54.  See:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/ike/guat/

A 1983 FRUS volume   concerning Guatemala in the same period
drew widespread criticism because it omitted mention of the CIA-
  instigated coup.  The State Department has posted the relevant
portions of that earlier volume here:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/ike/iv/

The Central Intelligence Agency has published an impressive
selection of declassified documents reflecting its role in the
1954 Guatemala coup which are available here:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/guatemala.asp


NSA FOIA EXEMPTION DRAWS CRITICISM

A proposed exemption from the Freedom of Information Act for
"operational files" of the National Security Agency is causing
growing concern among public interest groups, media groups,
historians and NSA watchers.

There is a subset of NSA technical information on signals
intelligence collection that is rarely if ever disclosed.  So
exempting it from the requirements of the FOIA would make little
difference.

But the definition of just what constitutes "operational files"
-- i.e., "files that document the means by which foreign
intelligence or counterintelligence is collected through
technical systems" -- seems sufficiently loose that it could be
used to deflect legitimate FOIA requests.

NSA officials insist that such is not their intention.  But
neither have they explained why, fifty-one years after the
agency was established and thirty-seven years after the FOIA was
enacted, they need this exemption now.  Disclosure of classified
information concerning "cryptographic systems" is already
prohibited by law.

See "Bill would tighten cloak of NSA secrecy, critics say" by
Ariel Sabar, Baltimore Sun, May 16:

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/bal-te.nsa16may16,0,629061.story


UK:  SPECIAL OPERATIONS EXECUTIVE FILES

The Public Record Office of the United Kingdom announced its
latest monthly release, including declassified personnel files
of the World War II-era Special Operations Executive (SOE)
relating to "a number of the more celebrated SOE agents, and to
individuals who achieved fame outside of their work for SOE."
  See:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/may2003/soe_list.htm

Additional historical background concerning many of these SOE
agents may be found here:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWsoe.htm


NORTH KOREA ON FAILURE OF DENUCLEARIZATION

North Korea issued a lengthy denunciation of the United States
this week, holding the U.S. responsible for derailing the
process of "denuclearization" of the Korean peninsula.

See this May 12 "detailed report" published by the Korean
Central News Agency and translated by the Foreign Broadcast
Information Service:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/dprk051203.html

In a May 14 White House statement with the president of South
Korea, "President Bush and President Roh reaffirmed that they
will not tolerate nuclear weapons in North Korea."  See:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030514-17.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:12:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:58:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Gates


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 >Last fall I noticed insects flying around a light in the Wal-
 >Mart parking lot and out of the corner of my eye, they looked
 >just like the images being presented for years as "rods".
 >Shortly afterwards, the insect population decreased so I
 >couldn't catch them flying around the lights with my video
 >camera. I have been waiting all winter for the insects to
 >return.

 >On May 5th, 2003, I finally got my chance to test my hypothesis
 >and spent several hours filming insects flying near the lights
 >in the parking lot near our one-and-only McDonalds restaurant.
 >I filmed the insects (seemed like hundreds of them) with
 >various shutter speeds but got the best results capturing "rod"
 >like images by using the Sports setting. Even through the
 >viewfinder, I could see the "rods" (aka insects, bugs) flying
 >near the lights.

 >Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
 >now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
 >among us will know rods are really insects.

 >I encourage anyone interested to go to a parking lot at night
 >with your camcorder set on "Sports", aim and focus your camera
 >on the insects flying close to the light, record, then review
 >the footage in slow motion to see for yourself (most of the time
 >you don't even need to review in slow motion).

Amy,

An excellent experiment, one that I suspect you will get much
heat over.

Have you also tried this under broad daylight conditions as the
so called Rods video alleges to be? Just curious


Cheers,

Robert








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                         Re: Rods Exposed - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:56:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:51:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stanford


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

<snip>

 >Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
 >now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
 >among us will know rods are really insects.

<snip>

 >But please, do not make DVD's, videos, etc. and try to sell your
 >images as "UFO's" or "Rods"! It's time to stop this type of
 >hoax.

A big amen! Try it with dragon flies in bright sunlight, and you
will record real 'hot rods' :) making incredible turns almost
puttng any legendary UFO to shame.

Those "rods" recorded over Iraq during the war were quite
laughable, and it is a shame that certain 'UFO researchers' were
declaring them to be something extraordinary or worthy of
UFOlogical interest other than as examples of 'noise' and not of
signal.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Bright

From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:46:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:00:41 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Bright


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:17:38 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >I'm curious as to how IFO is defined in this context.

 >Is there an assumption that all IFOs have mundane explanations?
 >It would seem to me that researchers would be very interested in
 >cases where the witnesses have identified an unknown object as
 >an alien space craft, which would also make it an "IFO".
 >Steve

Hi Steve,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd argue that where a
witness has "identified an unknown object as an alien space
craft", the object would be defined in relation to the standard
of evidence that the investigator would be willing to accept as
proof.

To the witness, the object would indeed be an "IFO". It's then
up to other individuals to decide, depending upon the
information available to them. One man's UFO is another man's
IFO. It would ultimately fall upon an investigator to
hypothesise as to the nature of the object, based upon all
available evidence.

Every case must of course be taken on it's own particular
merits, but generally speaking it would take more than an eye
witness testimony to convince _me_ that an object was of ET
origin, given the unreliable nature of human memory and the ease
with which the conscious mind can be fooled by hallucination
(induced by EM radiation, for example). Therefore, the terms are
subjective in nature: what would it take to convince _you_? The
same applies not only of the ETH, but indeed of any given
hypothesis.


All the best,

Dan

--
Dan Bright
dan@theunexplained.info
www.theunexplained.info







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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:51:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:08:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Ledger


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

<snip>

Hi Amy,

Confirmation is good. And there are others who've shown the same
thing. But I was under the impression that many if not most
believed these to be bugs captured at high shutter speeds.

It's been below my horizon of interest and that of many others,
for several years now.


Don Ledger







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:52:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:06:11 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:18:30 +0000
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:38:37 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>"In reference to the video images from Tim Edwards on your web
 >>site, I have replicated these images by video taping spider silk
 >>reflecting sun light. I came across it by accident while filming
 >>various images of birds, bugs, debris and conventional aircraft
 >>in flight for my IFO Database. I happened to see the spider silk
 >>images in footage I'd shot one day so I set out to deliberately
 >>film spider silk reflecting sunlight to compare to Mr. Edwards
 >>footage of an alleged UFO. I have a lot of video footage of
 >>spider silk reflecting sunlight and have been able to replicate
 >>almost all the images and characteristics in Mr. Edward's
 >>footage including the "rippling lights" seen in Tim's footage
 >>and other characteristics of the alleged UFO.

 >>I can create AVI's but not MPG's (working on obtaining the
 >>software)

 >I have noticed you have been saying that for years now, along
 >with you don't have the money to afford putting video clips on
 >the Web. Skynet hosts nearly 300 Meg online free of charge and
 >only costs the amount of taking your loved one to a movie. We've
 >been online doing that for over 7 years now.

 >Your excuses for not having resources to put up clips is wearing
 >thin, because if you really wanted to, or cared enough this
 >obstacle certainly won't be a problem. $10 bucks a month to
 >display your research is not a monumental task to ask of a vocal
 >UFO researcher.

As far as I know, Skynet is your domain. I need my own domain. I
purchased my own domain last year only to find out, the web host
I also purchased space from did not support certain domains. I
lost all the money I invested in trying to set up my own domain
so now I am learning more about owning and hosting your own
domain so I won't get ripped off again.

The point is, however, that I not only offered to show you the
AVI's by posting them on a web page, I also offered, repeatedly,
to send you a copy of the footage I wanted to share with you but
_not once_ did you indicate any interest in receiving the
footage - free of charge. You had your mind made up and you did
not seem interested in studying alternative theories.

 >>I find it interesting that I had presented the materials, AVI's,
 >>in a simple format yet Mr. King, who supposedly had all these
 >>video skills, couldn't view the AVI's? Instead he offers
 >>assistance in converting the footage to other formats. I told
 >>Tom I could use any suggestions he might care to give.

 >Amy had it ever occurred to you that you might not have rendered
 >the AVI properly so others could view it? You were most likely
 >rendering in proprietary codecs that came with your video
 >capture software that only can be viewed with the capture
 >device. I have ran into this problem several times trading clips
 >on the web. But as you stated you can't do MPGs and only AVI's
 >so its your own limited software that presented the problem.

I told you, up front, that all I could do was make AVI's (at
that time) to share with you. You never indicated that you had
problems viewing AVI's (I had no problem viewing the AVI's with
_both_ of my computers - which I do to check anything I post to
others to make sure my materials are available). Besides, again,
the whole point was that I not only tried to share my footage
with you via AVI's, I also offered to SEND you a copy of the
footage via snail-mail but you were not interested.

You are trying to shift the focus from your lack of follow-up to
my software. I'm sure there was nothing preventing you from
reviewing a VHS, which I gladly would have sent to you, so you
have no excuse and my software or lack of was not the problem.

 >AVI creates problems for Mac users and some PC users alike and
 >I'll bet many people still can't view your AVI file to this day.
 >MPG I is a universal format that you should have used to begin
 >with. There is alot of shareware out there to convert AVI-MPG is
 >you ever bother to look.

 >What is the name of the video capture hardware and software you
 >are using to do these IFO 101 studies?

I have been looking for the right kind of software and recently
purchased a digital video camera that came with various kinds of
software that I am quickly learning to use (unfortunately, the
Showbiz program that came with my new DVD burner cooperates one
day but not the next and will convert formats when it's in the
mood - I am now looking to buy a better program = more $$$). Not
everyone has the money to go around investing in all the
equipment you are able to obtain. I had to use my income tax
refund to buy my new camera and other equipment instead of a new
car - which I needed badly. Now you admonish me for not buying
web space, software and equipment just so you can view AVI's
instead of a VHS which I offered to mail to you?

I'm an independent researcher, a single, working mom with two
kids, little time and even less money to do the research I do
let alone purchase all the equipment, software and web space you
recommend. I'm working on it but for now, you will just have to
settle for my research presented the best way I can manage and
when I have the time. Actually, I am quite proud of how much I
have learned and purchased by way of equipment (video and
computer) and the skills I have learned to present the
information I have to share. Now that my children and I must
move soon to keep my ex-husband from hurting us, I will have
even less time and money to do the work that needs to be done
and bring it to you doorstep, er, internet. Not that you really
care anyway.

 >>Tom and I then engage in a discussion about the witnesses and
 >>what they claimed they saw that day. I asked several questions
 >>but Tom never answered them. Instead, Tom refers me to old
 >>reruns of Mr. Edwards story as presented on Sightings and other
 >>programs. To which I replied:

 >Yes and on some the shows Tim Edwards were on had many of the
 >"witnesses", something Amy didn't want to deal with and she
 >simply ignored them altogether and only wanted people to focus
 >on her IFO claims.

Hey, Tom, I'm over here? Who are you talking to? One minute you
address me in person, the next you are talking about me.?

I didn't "ignore" the witnesses. In fact, I asked you questions
about the witnesses and the _timing_ of their testimonies. I
asked you if the witnesses reported seeing the alleged UFO Tim
claimed to have video taped BEFORE or AFTER they saw and/or
heard about Tim's sighting and video footage. If they claimed to
have seen the same UFO _before_ Tim's footage and claims were
made public (and not Tim's relatives), then I have to wonder why
they didn't report the UFO they saw themselves - before Tim
filled his sighting report. If they claimed to have seen the UFO
_after_ Tim's footage and claims were made public, considering
the similarities between Tim's footage and my footage of spider
silk reflecting sunlight, I have to wonder what really happened.

But you never addressed these questions and, instead, referred
me to old programs containing witness testimonies, which I'd
already heard. Seems you never followed up on these lines of
questioning or refused to share the informatio.

 >>"Yes, I have viewed some of the old programs and video tapes
 >>that include Tim's video and witness testimony. As I said, I
 >>don't know how the other witnesses fit in but I am quite sure
 >>Tim video taped spider silk reflecting sunlight. In fact, in one
 >>of the video stills on his web site, you can make out where the
 >>silk strand appears to have been attached to his house or some
 >>structure on his roof (see attached - I enhanced the still to
 >>help you see the white line that extends downward at an angle,
 >>therefore not likely to be video artifact, and to the edge of
 >>the roof). You can also see where the spider silk strand appears
 >>attached between the "UFO" and to the roof in places in Tim's
 >>video if you look for it. If you look at it as only a UFO, then
 >>you will not look for the rest of the information available in
 >>the footage."

 >I have been to Tim Edwards house 3 times and met most of the
 >witnesses to this event. I also have a digitally mastered copy
 >of his footage. I have stabilized his video when its near the
 >gutter of his house. Go to my website and download the clip.
 >Notice how the object 'rotates' in the clip. Something a spider
 >web can't do if its attached to the roof of the house.

Yes, Tom, I've reviewed you 'stabilized' footage of Tim's
images. When I compare the stabilization processed footage to
the original footage, also posted on your web site, I note how
much the stabilization process actually seems to distort the
original footage. I hadn't noticed it before but because I am
more familiar with the Tim Edwards footage, I'm beginning to
wonder just how much your stabilization process actually
clarifies or distorts original images. It looked good with the
Mexico footage but I had never really studied the original
alleged Mexico UFO footage before.

The images can appear quite different when "stabilized" and I'm
not sure that is even the correct name for the process. Seems to
me what you are really doing when "stabilizing" an image is
editing the footage so that one image remains basically static
while the other portion is allowed to move in it's original
capacity. This process doesn't necessarily make the image
clearer or convey the original behavior of objects involved, it
seems to distort the overall picture creating a false image and
false representation of the original footage.

Have you tried "stabilizing" the alleged UFO in Tim's original
footage to see what happens? My guess is, a whole new picture
would evolve making the house (roof edge in this case) look more
like a UFO than the alleged UFO itself. This is why we must be
careful when editing or altering original footage by subjecting
the footage to various processes such as "stabilization",
enlarging, enhancing, etc. It may sound good but it may also
cause more problems that it solves.

In the original, unstabilized version of Tim's alleged UFO
footage, you can actually see the line connecting the "UFO" to
some portion of the roof (not necessarily the edge of the house
as visible in the footage). This is quite typical of spider
webs/spider silk as demonstrated in the AVI's I have shared.
Several times you can even see a thin, white line curve as it
blows in the wind. If Tim Edwards would allow me to post several
stills from his original footage on the internet, I can show you
(and everyone) where these lines appear. Since Mr. Edwards
footage is copyrighted, I would need his permission. Without his
permission, I cannot indicate the lines clearly for others to
see and make this available on the internet.

Would you do me a favor, Tom? Would you ask Tim if I can be
allowed to: 1) receive a copy of your "digitally mastered" copy
of his footage in order to obtain the various stills I need to
demonstrate the location of the white lines attached to the
alleged UFO in his footage? I've tried contacting him in the
past but received no response. I will, of course, try again.

 >>I indicated that if you look closely, you can even see where the
 >>spider silk (aka "UFO") in Mr. Edwards' footage is visible but
 >>Tom didn't seem interested neither did he reflect having any
 >>cognizance of what I was trying to show him.

 >Amy that is a lie! You are a master of taking everything out of
 >context. You contacted me months ago, but try to appear to this
 >List that you recently contacting me in reference to John's
 >post.

I swear, you and John are so stuck on that interpretation. I
never said I contacted you recently, that is yours and John's
interpretation and cop-out when you want to shift the focus of
these discussions. What difference would it make anyway if I had
contacted you months ago (late September and early October, 2002
to be exact) or recently, our discussion remains the same. You
did not indicate even trying to look for the white lines I
pointed out to you that can be seen connecting the "UFO" to the
top of the house (I even circled a white line connecting the
"UFO" to the top of the house in a still from Tim's footage that
I sent to you so how could you miss it?)

 >>I then realized that Tom was not interested in reviewing the
 >>information I had to share as his mind was made up. Not once did
 >>Tom take me up on my offer to send him a copy of the footage I
 >>had of spider silk reflecting sunlight - which I offered to send
 >>repeatedly. This indicated to me that Tom was not going to
 >>consider alternative theories or evidence and I was wasting my
 >>time.

 >Putting words in my mouth, huh, Amy?

Nope. Tell me exactly where did I quote you as saying something
you didn't? I have the original E-mails and have quoted you from
our correspondence.

 >You contacted me, trying to
 >convince me of your spider web theory which we researched 7-8
 >years ago! What she said above simply isn't true. Read on...

I contacted you offering to _share_ my studies in this area. I
wasn't trying to convince you of anything. In fact, even in my
original E-mails I said,

"I will send you a copy of the video footage I have of spider
silk reflecting sunlight if you will give me a mailing address
and about two weeks to put it together as I am very busy. All I
ask in return is for you to review the footage with an open mind
and re-evaluate."

And in another E-mail I said,

"I am quite certain about what Tim video taped based on my own
experiments with spider silk and recommend the case be re-
evaluated. I know that you are a good researcher, Tom, and I
know that you are sincerely interested in finding the truth.
Please keep searching and never settle for anything less."

All I was asking you to do was examine new information and re-
evaluate the case - which you never did.

 >>Now tell me, John, just who was it that really "refused follow-
 >>up"? Hmmmm?

 >It's Amy who refuses to follow up on anything that don't fit
 >into her flimsy investigations. She is so convinced its a spider
 >web and refuses to deal with the eyewitnesses to this sighting.

Here we go again... Tom, I'm right here. You may quote me from
my reply to John but this is _your_ reply to me and the UFO
Updates list. Please do not address me in the third person. It's
rude.

As I said in one of my letters to you in reference to witness
testimonies:

"In many cases multiple eye-witnesses clench the deal but I'm
afraid that in this case it only adds more to the mystery of
what really happened that day. I do not discount their testimony
but I can't deny what I see in my video of spider silks
reflecting sunlight. Either Tim taped spider silk reflecting
sunlight or we haveUFOs that look *exactly* like spider silk in
the sun. I suspect a bit of "UFO-itis" touched the other
witnesses that day and this should be investigated more fully
BEFORE reaching conclusions that UFO's were seen and video taped
that day."

Tom, you seem quite interested in posting Tim's alleged UFO
footage on your web site and adding to your "UFO footage"
collection but you don't seem interested in studying the
evidence I have to share. When new evidence is forthcoming, it
behooves us, as researchers and investigators, to carefully
examine the information and if necessary, re-evaluate our
original conclusions.

 >A cook at Tim's restarant saw this object 2 1/2 miles away! But
 >that didn't fit nicely into Amys preconieved idea of what
 >happened. There was also a DJ that saw the object about 1 hour
 >before Tim did in another location and a cop saw it at another
 >location after Tim had finished video taping it.

Is it possible, Tom, the events transpired differently than what
you want to believe? Again, did these witnesses report seeing a
UFO before or after Tim's sighting and footage were made public
via TV, etc.? Did they call the police or contact any
authorities _before_ learning of Tim's sighting? If so, is there
any documentation of this?

 >It became apparent Amy didn't want to deal with the witnesses at
 >all since it dismissed her theory. I offered her Tim's home
 >phone number to contact him directly and get data straight from
 >the horses mouth. Her reply? You might ask .....


You never gave me Tim's phone number and Tim has never responded
to my E-mails when I've tried to contact him. I will try again,
and again, and again.

By all means, please send Tim's phone number to my private E-
mail address at yellowrose129@attbi.com and I will try to
contact him. I have a lot of questions I want to ask Tim. So
nice of you to send me his phone number, finally.

 >I was shocked! Here I have this person I don't know offering a
 >theory Tim, I, and others had looked at years ago. She wasted my
 >time with uploading improperly formatted AVI files, then I cut
 >to the chase and tell her to call Tim and she does an "about
 >face" and disappears and tells me to forget about it. Now she
 >claims I didn't want to look at her AVI's or a tape when she
 >high tailed it out of here instead of calling Tim Edwards and
 >getting first hand reports.

I gave up trying to share the footage I had of spider silk
reflecting sunlight with you because, after 5 correspondences,
you still insisted what Tim filmed was a UFO and never even
considered the possibility it could have been something else nor
were you even willing to review the footage I offered to send to
you. I had better things to do with my time and we were going
around in circles (like now) so I simply moved on. If you are
willing now to study alternate possibilities and actually do
some research in this area, I would be more than happy to
continue our discussions and we can share materials.

I tell you what, Tom, you send me a copy of your digitally
mastered copy of Tim's footage and allow me to use stills (with
Tim's permission) from his footage to illustrate the white lines
that can be seen connecting the "object" to the top of the house
(as in spider silk) and I'll send you a copy of the footage I
have obtained of spider silk reflecting sunlight. I am more than
willing to work together on this investigation. But I don't have
time for idle chit-chat and closed minds.

 >Now she tells this List I ignored her evidence and has totally
 >spun her story.

 >Let me ask Amy this. Have you ever spoke to Tim Edwards, or E-
 >Mailed him, or attempted to do so?

Yes, I E-mailed him but received no reply.

 >How and where did you get a
 >copy of his footage to study?

 >From your web site and his footage released on TV programs and
 >produced in videos about UFOs (over and over and over).

 >What generation is this copy you
 >have and how long is the running time?

Whatever generation the TV programs obtained and the running
time of the footage Tim gave them. I look forward to reviewing a
copy of your digitally mastered copy so I can learn more and
make more comparisons. These copies should be available to all
UFO researchers for study rather than only a select few with
their own possible bias.

 >How many witness were
 >there to this event?

Uh, I viewed it at home with maybe my cats as witnesses? Don't
remember where the kids were but they probably saw the same
footage several times when it came on TV or when I reviewed the
copies I was able to obtain. (I don't understand what this has
to do with the case.)

 >Those are general questions you should have answers to before
 >you begin a serious study of this case.

And more questions need to be asked and researched before
reaching conclusions and posting alleged UFO footage all over
the place - especially when new information and evidence comes
to our attention.

 >Also have you ever spoken or E-Mailed Anthony Woods? You have
 >dismissed his footage, also based upon web clips, recently. I
 >guess grainy clips, 1/20 of the footage are enough for you to
 >dismiss a case publically.

Yes, I have tried to E-mail Mr. Woods. No answer yet. And I
haven't "dismissed" his footage. If you have been paying
attention, I indicated I could only share a preliminary analysis
pending the release of the documentary and more complete footage
I plan to review.

Let me ask you if you have accepted Mr. Woods claims as
genuine...based only on the grainy clips released thus far? Have
you spoken to Mr. Woods and has he agreed to send you his
alleged UFO footage for your analysis?

 >I certainly don't think you have any right to dictate analysis
 >to this List and attempt to give lessons in video when you never
 >bother to contact orginators of the videos you debunk.

Ah, ha! There it is. You consider my attempts to compare images
of allegedUFOs to images of IFOs as "debunking" rather than
research. Furthermore, without even waiting for my answers to
your questions as to whether or not I have tried to contact
these people, you conclude that I never bothered to contact
them. Obviously your mind is made up about me and my work and
you will not even give me a chance to answer before attacking
me.

 >Here is the big question you seem to be avoiding. Are there any
 >UFO videos out there Amy? You certainly have the ability to
 >explain them without ever bothering to speak directly with the
 >person who shot the video and obtain good copies.

LOL! What is so important to you (and Santiago and John) about
whether or not there are any "UFO videos" out there? You keep
beating a dead horse that really has nothing to do with the
topics under discussion. Of course there are UFO videos out
there, Tom. Whether or not these videos reflect images of
unknown objects is the question (about which you have already
made up your mind). Why is this so hard for you (and others) to
understand? Gees!

If you (and Santiago and John) are trying to determine if I
believe inUFOs or thatUFOs exist, why don't you ask me _that_
question?

Of course UFOs exist. Any flying object that cannot be
identified is to be considered an unidentified flying object.
What these objects are or are not remains to be determined.
Whether these objects are from another planet, from our military
or merely misidentifications of conventional aircraft and/or
insects, debris, lens flare, etc. also remains to be determined.
But I sure as heck am not going to go around promoting ANY
footage of an undetermined nature as a "genuine UFO" or
"authentic" when no one really knows what the heck it is or is
not.

I am not a debunker, I just genuinely want to know the truth.
Neither am I a believer, what's to believe in? I search for
answers and attempt to limit the variables so that I may get
closer to the real phenomena and thus closer to the truth about
these phenomena. Unlike others who are willing to accept
evidence and information with little or no real investigation or
research, I am determined to keep digging until I find out
what's really going on. If that offends you, too bad. Maybe it's
time for a little fresh air around here so open your mind and a
few windows of opportunity to learn more.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert








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   May > May 16

                         Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting?

From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:33:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:31:56 -0400
Subject: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting?


Amy,

I came across a sighting report, made in 1999, by you.

As I find this report interesting I would like to know
what your final conclusions were on those three lights you
saw:


Source: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/jun/m11-015.shtml

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:21:24 EDT
Subject: Filer's Files #23 1999

Filer's Files #23 --1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,   Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director,
June 11, 1999,  Majorstar@aol.com

<snip>

TEXAS

LAKE LEWISVILLE -- Amy Hebert reports that on June 6, 1999, I
was in my back yard helping my daughter check on her turtle in
our pond.  I looked up to the west while talking with my
daughter and noticed three, large, bright white lights in a row
(horizontal) flying to the west at a steady speed at 1:10 PM. I
assumed it was an airplane but something seemed strange about
the three white lights.  I kept watching it while talking to my
daughter. Then suddenly three bright red lights emerged from the
left side of the three white lights and flew south faster than
an airplane would fly.  The three bright white lights continued
to fly off to the west until I lost sight of it behind the
trees.  The first object or the three white lights would have
been over Lake Lewisville about the time the three red lights
emerged.  The three white lights were very bright and unusually
big as were the three red lights that were a very, very bright
red.  The lights were not flashing or strobing.  The lights were
larger than a dime held at arm's length.  Thanks to Amy Hebert:
yelorose@swbell.net.


I think it was indeed an unusual sighting for you. Can you
comment on this one ? Thank you.


Santiago









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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:00:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:45:01 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:13:15 -0700
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:36 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >I don't know how large 'large' is, but there are over 100

 >http://www.larryhatch.net/DISCRED.html

Yes, Larry, this kind of information is a great resource in the
study of UFOs. You did a great job with this web page.

I also like the way you only list those so-called UFO
sightings/encounters that have enough evidence to label them a
hoax or misidentification. I admire this kind of work because it
makes less work for others in their efforts to find the truth
about UFO phenomena. It helps sort the wheat from the chaff.

 >As noted up top:

 >"This list is NOT intended to be comprehensive, a lifetime of
 >work would not be enough. Nor is this a list of junk sightings,
 >night-lights, flying triangles by the score, every balloon since
 >Montgolfier etc. .. clearly a waste of bandwidth. "

 >In short, I concentrated on well known cases that waste lots of
 >people's time. These are not my studies, just a listing of the
 >findings of others who did the real leg-work. Credits and a few
 >links appear on the page.

Excellent resource, Larry. Thank you for making this effort to
help others.


Amy








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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:21:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:49:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:56:17 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >>called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 ><snip>

 >>Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
 >>now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
 >>among us will know rods are really insects.

 ><snip>

 >>But please, do not make DVD's, videos, etc. and try to sell your
 >>images as "UFO's" or "Rods"! It's time to stop this type of
 >>hoax.

 >A big amen! Try it with dragon flies in bright sunlight, and you
 >will record real 'hot rods' :) making incredible turns almost
 >puttng any legendary UFO to shame.

 >Those "rods" recorded over Iraq during the war were quite
 >laughable, and it is a shame that certain 'UFO researchers' were
 >declaring them to be something extraordinary or worthy of
 >UFOlogical interest other than as examples of 'noise' and not of
 >signal.

There seems to be an onus on some Ufologists to associate
popular world events with UFOs. When war with Iraq seemed
inevitable, I started hearing stories that Saddam had a crashed
UFO in his possession and that was the real reason the U.S. was
invading him.

Likewise, when I learned Columbia had gone down, I thought, 'How
long will it take someone to blame that on UFOs?' I think a
great many of our so-called 'space disasters' have been blamed
on aliens by someone or another.

Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Jerry's Uncle Leo
blames every bad thing that happens to him on anti-Semitism.
Such is life. Fiddle-dee-dee.


Ian Rogers








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   May > May 16

              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:16:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:09:35 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:09:38 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >I would think that someone who is interested in the truth would
 >work with evidence, rather than trying to disqualify other
 >people who believe things.

The topic of this thread is "23,000 Clementine photos", alleged
by Ms. White to be secreted away from public viewing. Despite
repeated requests she has avoided offering a single shread of
evidence why this claim should be considered credible. One might
wonder just who is 'interested in the truth', and who merely
enjoys 'believing'.








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   May > May 16

                              JANAP - 50 years

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:31:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:16:34 -0400
Subject: JANAP - 50 years


JANAP 146(C) COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL
INTELLIGENCE SIGHTINGS FROM AIRBORNE AND WATERBORNE SOURCES -
10 MARCH 1954


JANAP 146(C)

THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
JOINT COMMUNICATIONS-ELECTRONICS COMMITTEE
WASHINGTON, D. C.

10 MARCH 1954

LETTER OF PROMULGATION

1. JANAP 146(C) COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL
INTELLIGENCE SIGHTINGS FROM AIRBORNE AND WATERBORNE SOURCES, is
an unclassified publication.

2. JANAP 146(C) COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL
INTELLIGENCE SIGHTINGS FROM AIRBORNE AND WATERBORNE SOURCES, is
effective upon receipt and supersedes JANAP 146 (B),
COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL INTELLIGENCE
SIGHTINGS FROM AIRCRAFT (CIRVIS) and all other conflicting
instructions. JANAP 146(B) shall be destroyed by burning. No
report of destruction is required.

CHAPTER II

CIRVIS REPORTS

SECTION I - GENERAL

201. INFORMATION TO BE REPORTED AND WHEN TO REPORT

a. Sightings within the scope of this chapter, as outlined in
Article 102b(l), (2), and (3), are to be reported as follows:

(l) While airborne (except over foreign territory - See Article 212).

(a) Single aircraft or formations of aircraft which appear to be
directed against the United States, its territories or
possessions.

(b) Missiles.

(c) Unidentified flying objects.

(d) Submarines.

(e) A group or groups of military surface vessels.

(2) Upon Landing.

(a) Individual surface vessels, submarines, or aircraft of
unconventional design, or engaged in suspicious activity or
observed in an unusual location or following an unusual course.

(b) Confirmation reports.

202. SIGHTINGS NOT TO BE REPORTED

Reports are not desired concerning surface craft or aircraft in
normal passage, or known U.S. military or government vessels and
aircraft.

JANAP 146(C)

CHAPTER III

MERINT REPORTS

SECTION I - GENERAL

301. INFORMATION TO BE REPORTED AND WHEN TO REPORT

a. Sightings within the scope of this chapter (as outlined in
Article 102b., (4), (5), (6), (7) are to be reported as follows:

(l) Immediately (except when within territorial waters of other
nations as prescribed by international law)

a) Guided Missiles
b) Unidentified flying objects
c) Submarines
d) Group or groups of military vessels
e) Formation of aircraft (which appear to be directed against
    the United States, its territories or possessions).
f) Individual surface vessels, submarines, or aircraft of
    unconventional design, or engaged in suspicious activity or
    observed in an unusual location or following an unusual
    course.

(2) When situation changes sufficiently to warrant an amplifying
report (see Art. 409).

SECTION III - SECURITY

308. MILITARY AND CIVILIAN

a. All persons aware of the contents or existence of a MERINT
Report are governed by the Communications Act of 1934 and
amendments Thereto, and Espionage Laws. MERINT reports contain
information affecting the National Defense of the United States
within the meaning of the Espionage Laws, 18 U.S. Code, 793 and
794. The unauthorized transmission or revelation of the contents
of MERINT reports in any manner is prohibited.

b. Military commands and activities in making local distribution
Of MERINT reports and in subsequent communications regarding the
contents of any MERINT report shall handle such communications
in accordance with current security regulations.

402. EXAMPLES BY TYPE

The following are examples of the types of "MERINT" reports.
Specific application of Military or commercial procedure has
been avoided since the means of transmission would determine the
procedure to be used. Of primary importance is the expeditious
handling and accuracy of the reports.

a. "MERINT" REPORT

(1) A radiotelegraph transmission:

RAPID US GOVT

TO

COMEASTSEAFRON 90 CHURCH ST. NEW YORK

MERINT 5126 N 14230W 3 UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
HEADED NW AT 17000 FEET CIGAR SHAPE 50 FEET TO SW AT
2 MILES VERIFIED BY NAVIGATOR VISIBILITY UNLIMITED
211513Z JONES NKLN








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                        Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:38:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:46:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 >Last fall I noticed insects flying around a light in the Wal-
 >Mart parking lot and out of the corner of my eye, they looked
 >just like the images being presented for years as "rods".
 > Shortly afterwards, the insect population decreased so I
 >couldn't catch them flying around the lights with my video
 >camera. I have been waiting all winter for the insects to
 >return.

 >On May 5th, 2003, I finally got my chance to test my hypothesis
 >and spent several hours filming insects flying near the lights
 >in the parking lot near our one-and-only McDonalds restaurant.
 > I filmed the insects (seemed like hundreds of them) with
 >various shutter speeds but got the best results capturing "rod"
 >like images by using the Sports setting. Even through the
 >viewfinder, I could see the "rods" (aka insects, bugs) flying
 >near the lights.

<snip>


Amy,

I don't think you understand what is really going on. What you
saw near the light really were rods. Their camouflage is that
when they slow down they look like insects so that people would
not get freaked out when they see them flying slowly or see rods
sitting still on objects.

They are some form of mutant aliens here to observe us but do
not want direct contact. One way to tell which are real insects
or which are these hidden aliens is that the artificial insects
never land on people or dog droppings. They also never let
humans capture them. :-)


Josh








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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: John Velez<johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:38:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:41:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:16:18 -0500
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:09:38 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>I would think that someone who is interested in the truth would
 >>work with evidence, rather than trying to disqualify other
 >>people who believe things.

 >The topic of this thread is "23,000 Clementine photos", alleged
 >by Ms. White to be secreted away from public viewing. Despite
 >repeated requests she has avoided offering a single shread of
 >evidence why this claim should be considered credible. One might
 >wonder just who is 'interested in the truth', and who merely
 >enjoys 'believing'.

Herr Oberg,

Clementine photographic material was classified and kept from
the public. (Right before they claimed that it was experiencing
mechanical problems.) Whether that material was ever
declassified and passed on for public consumption I do not know.
I do know that it _was_ classified at one point.

Just an aside, you are very condescending every time you
communicate with anybody who happens to think that UFOs are real
and that there is strong evidence that the government isn't
telling us all that it knows about it.

Before you even ask, go spend some time at the Black Vault
website downloading retrieved government documents that relate
specifically to UFOs. Then, talk to Jan Aldrich or to Dick Hall
about the hundreds of UFO reports that Bluebook could not
explain. And if you still have any questions after absorbing all
that material, contact Richard Haines and ask him about all the
first hand professional pilot and military pilot sighting
reports/testimony that he has archived. You might also want to
talk to John Callahan, former head of air/accident
investigations for the FAA about radar data that corroborates a
UFO sighting involving multiple professional pilot witnesses.)

Gimme a break Mr. Know-it-all. It's (UFOs) not all as cut and
dry as you'd like everybody to think.

Stop talking down to everybody. For some unfathomable reason you
think yourself to be right and everybody else wrong. You relate
to others as if there is no doubt about it.

Last I heard, "we all put our pants on one leg at a time."

And for Keerist sake, do your homework about UFOs before
shooting your mouth off. There is enough solid evidence
available to convince any intellectually honest individual that
there is a genuine mystery that our government has kept hidden
from us.

But no, you have all the answers when it comes to UFOs. Or at
least it comforts you to think so. Be nice to Eleanor. It's okay
to disagree with her, but it's _not_okay_ to talk down at her
the way that you do. She is a friend and agree or disagree a
member of this List whose opinion holds as much weight or
validity as the next person. We're all equals here. Nobody,
regardless of what delusions they may be laboring under, is any
better than anybody else.

Just who do you imagine yourself to be that you think it's okay
to talk to anybody that way? Especially to Eleanor. I don't
agree with some of the things she says or believes in, but I
would never disrespect them or her. Or 'talk down my nose' at
her like you do.


John Velez







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   May > May 17

                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:44:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:46:50 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >Fair enough. I shall clarify for the List:

 >The claim that aliens are habitually visiting the earth
 >(crashing into our deserts, abducting humans, mutilating cattle,
 >carving crop circles in wheat fields, et al.) requires
 >extraordinary evidence.

 >The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
 >bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
 >evidence. Alien bases on the Moon, Mars, underground, aliens
 >abducting us, mutilating us and our cattle, are some fairly wild
 >ideas. Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
 >don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound person
 >to believe them.

 >Because the people who tell such stories seem sincere? Because
 >they have no reason to lie?

 >I really hope they have more proof than that. Sadly, they
 >usually don't.


OK then Ian -

Please prove that it isn't ET perpetrating these things and who
is actually perpetrating them. Could it be the military? If it
is then the folk sufferring should take their own country to
high court and get true justice done.

These things have gone on for too many years now and anyone with
an ounce of sense wants answers, not to be told they are mad.


col







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   May > May 17

                          New At Roswell Proof Site

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:12:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:46:13 -0400
Subject: New At Roswell Proof Site


The following material has been added to the Roswellproof
website:

1. Testimony of Brig. Gen. Steven Lovekin (ret.): Lovekin, a
Disclosure Project witness, said that in 1959 he was shown a
metallic beam with "encryptions" on it and briefed that 3 or 5
alien bodies were recovered from one of the New Mexico crashes
(one still alive). They were still trying to decipher the beam
symbols. Lovekin's testimony at:

www.roswellproof.com/lovekin.html

2. The essay on Gen. Ramey's involvement with UFOs has been
expanded and placed on a separate page. Many new links to source
material have been added, particularly his participation in the
debunking during the 1952 UFO flap, USAF Chief of Staff
Vandenberg's debunking remarks during same, and Chief of Staff
Twining's UFO remarks in 1954 in the midst of the orbiting
satellites story, with possible Ramey participation. (Twining
said the Air Force had some of their top people studying them
and that if they were an advanced civilization then we had
nothing to worry about.) Two days before Twining's remarks,
Donald Keyhoe broke the orbiting satellites story on Frank
Edwards program. Not only can you read news accounts of Keyhoe's
remarks, you can also listen to them, courtesy of a rare
recording obtained by Grant Cameron. See:

www.roswellproof.com/Ramey_info.html
www.roswellproof.com/Ramey_and_UFOs.html

Incidentally, Grant has a new CD out on Wilbert Smith, which he
is practically giving away for $5.00 + $2.00 S/H. This has not
only the Keyhoe/Edwards program, but over an hour of audio
recordings from Smith's lectures and over a thousand pages of
scanned material from Smith's government documents, personal
correspondence and articles. Check it out at:

http://presidentialufo.com/flyer.htm

3. If you haven't done so already, check out the section on
Roswell debris descriptions:

www.roswellproof.com/debris_main.html


David Rudiak







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   May > May 17

                          Re: 'Frank M'? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:13:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:48:25 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Frank M'? - Maccabee


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:33:06 +0200
 >Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:06:37 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>From: Louise A. Lowry <SHnSASSY1@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:22:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Frank M'?

 >>>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:51 -0300
 >>>Subject: 'Frank M'?

 >>>Hello All,

 >>>Do you know something about the abduction of a man called 'Frank
 >>>M'?

 >>>Here in Brazil we saw promo of a TV program about this case. The

 >>>Frank M. is a person that the IF (Intruders Foundation)
 >>>invesitgated, he ia an upstate resident of New York, he was
 >>>>the tape and have found it to be authentic.....

 >>The videotape analysis is presented at:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/PeanutUFO/PeanutUFO.html

 >>where the witnesses are referred to as "Fred and Mary."

 >In Dr. Maccabee's analysis there is no mention about any alleged
 >abduction, on the contrary:

 >"She (Frank M's wife) walked over toward him and stood there
 >watching as he got about 12 1/2 seconds of video before the
 >object disappeared above a cloud. Fred walked to another
 >location to see if it might come out of the cloud but...no luck.
 >That was it. The sighting had lasted, perhaps, 25 to 30 seconds,
 >maximum.

 >About a week later Fred was wondering who to tell about this
 >event. He managed to locate Stanton Friedman and a local MUFON
 >investigator, Jim Bouck".

 >How did the idea of an abduction come around? Did the wife
 >commented anything?


I am not certain of how the abduction story first came about but
it was within the last year or two after Frank had contacted
Budd Hopkins, I think about other events in Frank's and his
wife's life. At the time I was investigating his tape he was
puzzled by the fact that neither he nor his wife talked about
the sighting and tape or watched the tape for 8 days after he
took it. He told me on August 10, 1998 that he put the camera
away after the sighting and it wasn't until 8 days later that
they reviewed the tape, apparently to see other things (family
events) recorded on the tape. He also said, back on Aug. 10
1998, that he couldn't remember what happened during the 1 1/2
hours after the sighting.

Over the next several months I had several conversations and
letter communications with Frank, but they all were concentrated
on the video.

On Nov. 20, 1998, he again mentioned that he put the camera away
and he and his wife didn't discuss the event until 8 days later,
when they were reviewing the videotape (which had numerous
family events taped as well as the UFO sighting). They discussed
the event for the first time and his wife told him that she had
been standing beside him while ne videotaped. He had not
recalled that. He told me he was puzzled over their failure to
speak about the event right after if occurred and even forgot
abpout it until 8 days later.

At the time of my video investigation (which lasted through the
summer and fall of 1998) I did not think of a missing time
experience so I did not pursue his failure to look at the tape
for 8 days or his claim that he didn't recall exactlly what
happened in the hour or so following the sighting. Probably I
should have been more alert, but I was busy analyzing the video,
a procedure which took many months (part time) and didn't pursue
other aspects of that sighting.







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   May > May 17

                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:15:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - King


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:52:56 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:18:30 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:38:37 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >You are trying to shift the focus from your lack of follow-up to
 >my software.

 >I'm an independent researcher, a single, working mom with two
 >kids, little time and even less money to do the research I do
 >let alone purchase all the equipment, software and web space you
 >recommend. I'm working on it but for now, you will just have to
 >settle for my research presented the best way I can manage and
 >when I have the time. Actually, I am quite proud of how much I
 >have learned and purchased by way of equipment (video and
 >computer) and the skills I have learned to present the
 >information I have to share. Now that my children and I must
 >move soon to keep my ex-husband from hurting us, I will have
 >even less time and money to do the work that needs to be done
 >and bring it to you doorstep, er, internet. Not that you really
 >care anyway.

 >>I have been to Tim Edwards house 3 times and met most of the
 >>witnesses to this event. I also have a digitally mastered copy
 >>of his footage. I have stabilized his video when its near the
 >>gutter of his house. Go to my website and download the clip.
 >>Notice how the object 'rotates' in the clip. Something a spider
 >>web can't do if its attached to the roof of the house.

 >Yes, Tom, I've reviewed you 'stabilized' footage of Tim's
 >images. When I compare the stabilization processed footage to
 >the original footage, also posted on your web site, I note how
 >much the stabilization process actually seems to distort the
 >original footage. I hadn't noticed it before but because I am
 >more familiar with the Tim Edwards footage, I'm beginning to
 >wonder just how much your stabilization process actually
 >clarifies or distorts original images. It looked good with the
 >Mexico footage but I had never really studied the original
 >alleged Mexico UFO footage before.

 >The images can appear quite different when "stabilized" and I'm
 >not sure that is even the correct name for the process. Seems to
 >me what you are really doing when "stabilizing" an image is
 >editing the footage so that one image remains basically static
 >while the other portion is allowed to move in it's original
 >capacity. This process doesn't necessarily make the image
 >clearer or convey the original behavior of objects involved, it
 >seems to distort the overall picture creating a false image and
 >false representation of the original footage.

Its to bring out possible object movement, not exactly to
clarify the image.

 >Have you tried "stabilizing" the alleged UFO in Tim's original
 >footage to see what happens? My guess is, a whole new picture
 >would evolve making the house (roof edge in this case) look more
 >like a UFO than the alleged UFO itself. This is why we must be
 >careful when editing or altering original footage by subjecting
 >the footage to various processes such as "stabilization",
 >enlarging, enhancing, etc. It may sound good but it may also
 >cause more problems that it solves.

You would need to actually work with a number of different
stabilization software programs on several different videos to
even get a grip to how it works and what it can do.

How can you say "we must becareful when editing or altering
original footage by subjecting the footage to various processes
such as "stabilization"".

 >From what I understand you don't own any of these types of
 >programs. Before you start to dictate how this software should
 >be used try actually using it first before you comment on it!
 >That way you know what you're talking about and are aware of its
 >limitations.

 >Would you do me a favor, Tom? Would you ask Tim if I can be
 >allowed to: 1) receive a copy of your "digitally mastered" copy
 >of his footage in order to obtain the various stills I need to
 >demonstrate the location of the white lines attached to the
 >alleged UFO in his footage? I've tried contacting him in the
 >past but received no response. I will, of course, try again.

You're a dollar short and 8 years later investigating this case
and I'm all in favor of people who jump the gun. Everything
you're saying about Tim Edwards case was covered 8 years ago by
several different investigators and not just me. We're leaps and
bounds ahead of you at this point in studying UFOs Vs IFOs.

It's obvious your mind is made up on the Edwards case, your only
interested in his video to prove your theory but I know you
won't bother contacting witnesses, since you can't afford it as
you always point out.

I drove to his house 3 times and spent a considerable amount of
time researching his sighting. Who are you to judge my research
8 years after the fact, when you're studying web clips and old
Sightings episodes? You certainly have a bizarre non-friendly
approach to easing case data out of an investigator.

You expect people on this List to hand over all their hard
research to you so you can pick them and the research apart and
make judgements of them. I'm obligated to give you _nothing_.

You tend to rub everyone the wrong way around here from the
posts I've been reading. You've never investigated his case at
all and dismissed it. That's the most un-professional type of UFO
investigation I've seen in quite some time.

If you really want to know about Tim Edwards then start the hard
way like I did, calling information. I'll certainly share
information with many people on UpDates, but you had your chance
and blew it. I offered Edwards' number and you said (nevermind,
forget I ever brought this up). Sorry no second chances, do it
right the first time or don't do it at all.

 >And more questions need to be asked and researched before
 >reaching conclusions and posting alleged UFO footage all over
 >the place - especially when new information and evidence comes
 >to our attention.

As I said, all that was covered but you're 8 years late to the
party. I'm done going around with circles with you so argue with
someone else.


Tom King
www.ufovideo.com







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   May > May 17

                  Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:17:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:58:18 -0400
Subject: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!


I've never used the word "proof" outside of math classes, but
irregularities in the STS-48 video time stamps that I found a
few days ago are proof beyond any reasonable doubt that the time
stamps displayed on the video frames were NOT encoded by any
master timing unit aboard the space shuttle as has been claimed
by a so-called "space expert" and CSICOP big shot.

The proof is shown in a series of frames captured from a loss of
signal event in the video as shown at:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/LOS.htm

I consider this to be proof because:

(1) I believe it is not possible to encode a time stamp in
telemetry after the telemetry signal has been lost

(2) I believe that a precision master timing unit would not
assign time stamps that differ by more than a minute to two
nearly identical frames that were obviously taken a few
hundredths of a second apart.

I'm a real "true believer" in those two propositions.

What I can't prove, of course, is that the mislabeling of the
frames was intentional. It might be just a freakish coincidence
that the video frames were mislabeled in a way that gives the
false impression that a rocket firing coincided with the light
flash that suddenly sent the "debris particles" on their zigzag
course.

The apparent tampering with the video seems much too amateurish
to suggest any sinister plot by the CIA or something like that.
It looks more to me like the work of members of the subculture
within NASA whose lack of competence in image processing is
rivaled only by the intensity of their obsessive hatred of "UFO
nuts". (There are some similarities here with the dis-
enhancement of the Mars Face known as the Catbox or the "blotchy
white patch" as CNN science reporter John Holliman first called
it). I'm quite sure that some of these people would rather hurl
themselves off a cliff than admit to the possibility that the
UFO nuts might be right about something once and a while. As far
as I'm concerned, they can start hurling. This sort of nonsense
has gone on for far too many years.







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   May > May 17

             More On 'Crop Circle' At Glass House Mountains, Oz

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:05:38 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:03:35 -0400
Subject: More On 'Crop Circle' At Glass House Mountains, Oz


I advised Diane Harrison of the Australian UFO Research Network
(AUFORN) on Thursday evening that a TV item would appear on the
Channel 10 TV Network news, re mystery "crop circles" in the
Glass House Mountains area of south east Queensland.

The "zapping" noise, green light flash and localised blackout
occurred around midnight during the night of Wednesday, May
14th. The blackout was about one and a half hours duration and
very localised to the area. Contact with the local electricity
authorities failed to identify cause, but a power surge was
suggested. This may have accounted for the noise, light effect
and blackout, along with the animal disturbances. The flattened
areas vary in size. The patches number between 20 to 30 over
about 5 acres of sorghum crop. The patches of "flattened" crop"
are varied in size and intensity, and would not be accurately
described as "crop circles".

I sent images of the find to Diane Harrison who has put up a
preliminary link:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Crop_Circle.html

The basic details are also desribed in the following Courier
Mail newspaper piece:

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6441922%255E13762,00.html

Diane spoke with Kerry Staight the TV journalist who did the
Channel story, and also spoke with Mrs. Sandra Gowen, wife of
the property owner Kel Gowen. Kel Gowen called me early on
Friday morning, and we discussed the fin. I also spoke with
Noel Brady the farm hand who witnessed the green flashes and
noise. He seemed certain these came from the paddock that had
the flattened patches, which appear to be away from powerlines &
signal boxes. Kel Gowen also witnessed the noise but did not
see the flashes. He was located in the farm house about one
kilometre from the house Noel Brady was in. Kel regularly
inspects the property and was certain that the flattened areas
were not there between 4pm Wednesday and 8 am Thursday.

This is the first time Kel Gowen has planted sorghum, and has
only done so as a fertiliser feed to the soil, namely the crop
will be plowed into the soil in about another 8 weeks to
increase the nitrogen content of the soil. Zuchinis are
normally planted as the commercial crop. The sorghum crop is
quit thin steemed and as such may be proned to "lodging effects"
where the crop will fall over, often due to load effects,
brought on by varying factors such as water saturation. There
has been heavy rain in the proceding week, with som clear days.
  In the day immediately prior to the find, there was light
drizzle and overcast, but little in the way of significant wind
or turbulence effects. However by about 4 am heavy rain started
to full. No this level of waterfall may have catalysed the
possible lodging effects. Kel Gowen was not familar with this
natural phenomenon amongst crops. It should be noted that there
does not seem to be any pattern of these effects. With lodging
one would expect the tallest crops to be the most affected, but
again this can vary from crop to crop, in terms of species and
maturation effects, along with the variability of loading
effects from rain, head loads, wind, etc.

Kel Gowen has kindly agreed to mininimise entry into the site,
to preserve it until site inspections are undertaken by an
AUFORN team headed by Diane Harrison and Robert Frola, editor of
the Australian Ufologist. This site inspection should occur
today, Saturday, May 17th. I have discussed with Diane the
specific things to look for. Site inspection should go some way
to determing if "lodging" is a viable explanation for the crop
damage. The so called "humanoid" tree, allegedly pointing at the
site, seems at best a nice piece of simulcra, and little else.
  There is no evidence to date to suggest hoaxing. On balance the
most likely explanation for the find is "lodging", with a
coincidental electrical outage contributing the noise, green
flash and blackout.

I look forward to the results of the AUFORN field visit to see
what explanations are most relevant to this interesting affair.

The Glass House ground traces are for me an intriguing reminder
of the 1969 north coast NSW ground traces found at Bungawalban,
that strengthened and cemented my ground trace interests. Have a
look at the following link and scroll down to "the "UFO Nest"
milieu":

http://www.theozfiles.com/trace-cases-1.html

It should be noticed that while lodging was suggested as an
explanation for the 1969 "nest" milieu it also had a strong UFO
correlation. Currently in the case of the current Glass House
moutain find there is little to support a UFO connection, and
nothing to support a "crop circle" link.


Regards,

Bill Chalker






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   May > May 17

                          Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:28:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:05:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:51:19 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 ><snip>

 >Confirmation is good. And there are others who've shown the same
 >thing. But I was under the impression that many if not most
 >believed these to be bugs captured at high shutter speeds.

Actually, Don, you'd be surprised at the E-mails and discussions
I am having with those, including Jose Escamilla, who believe in
"rods" wholeheartedly. There still seems to be a lot of people
who believe in this myth and some have been pounding me with all
sorts of curse words and rude comments (seems to be my lot in
life for doing research, alas).

As for others who've shown the same thing, I've yet to find
anyone, on line or otherwise, who has filmed such a large
collection of flying insects at one time presenting just about
every kind of "rod" image ever posted on the internet.

But it's not important who has the most "rod" images in one
video sequence or who has the biggest UFO book or web site, etc.
What's really important is there are individuals, like me, who
cared enough to study this myth and how it's being
perpetrated/spread and took the time to alert others to this
scam. My research concerning alleged "rods" was definitely
built on a foundation of research instituted by those who came
before me and who bothered to share their results on their web
sites so others might learn from their studies (see the links at
the bottom of page 1 on the "Rods Exposed" web site).

 >It's been below my horizon of interest and that of many others,
 >for several years now.

Maybe that's why the "rods" myth continues to this day with Jose
and others _still_ selling videos and DVD's containing their so-
called "rods" footage. If more people had bothered to do the
research that needed to be done, we might have had the evidence
needed to stop these outrageous claims long ago. It's not
glamorous work, won't help you win friends or get you on TV but
someone's gotta do it. ;>

Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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   May > May 17

                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:06:55 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:40:22 +0000
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:36 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>
 >>You are right, it is a guessing game. Even with witness
 >>testimony, it's a guessing game. There is no way we can know for
 >>sure when someone is telling the absolute truth or not
 >>misinterpreting their sighting therefore, with or without
 >>photographic images, investigators and researchers must always
 >>remain aware of just how little fact they actually have to work
 >>with.

 >So what is the point of your admitted guessing game? To try to
 >argue that human knowledge is impossible? That's what you seem
 >to be saying. We have a ton of data to work with by quite
 >standard scientific methods, as I have extensively reported. I
 >swore a while back to give up on trying to debate rationally
 >with you, but let's see if you can stay on point and avoid
 >persiflage. I'll try for a while to discuss issues with you.

Hi, Dick:

Sorry I took so long replying. My personal E-mail-box has been
swamped with E-mails expressing support for my endeavors and my
encounters on this List. Your reply was listed as "Hebert"
instead of "Hall" so I had difficulty finding it to reply.

I would like, very much, to experience a rational debate with
you, Dick. By all means, let us discuss a topic without calling
names, twisting each other's words, making accusations or
shifting the focus. Agreed?

 >>>It is all well and good to catalogue and study IFOs as Amy is
 >>>doing. All rational students of UFO phenomena have been doing
 >>>that for many years, and that is why some people tend to object
 >>>to Amy's seemingly didactic approach and semantical quibbling.

 >>Dick, this is exciting! Could you please share all the URLs to
 >>these IFO databases so that I may link to them in my own
 >>Database? If all rational students of UFO phenomena have been
 >>compiling IFO databases for many years, I can't wait to see
 >>them! So far, I've only found a handful of others who have
 >>shared their studies in this area, such as Mr. Tom King, Dr.
 >>Maccabee, Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff and Mr. Gary Burton. But I've
 >>never found a large collection of IFO studies collected and
 >>presented on one web site (except mine).

 >This comes across as one of those typically sarcastic-sounding
 >utterances that you seem to excel at.

No accusations, please.

Perhaps my statements were a little tongue-in-cheek but I was
also dead serious. I am always on the look-out for research and
databases to link to and learn from.

 >There are (fortunately
 >and thankfully) lots of good media of record beyond the
 >internet. Books and articles and columns have been written
 >partly or almost entirely about IFOs. Both Jenny Randles and I
 >have commented extensively on IFOs in journals and at symposia.

Dick, could you please tell me exactly where these articles and
columns written partly or almost entirely about IFO's may be
found, including references to each magazine, volume, number and
page numbers? In which journals or other forums may I find your
extensive comments concerning IFO's and those of Jenny Randles?
I would like to review these materials and add the information
to my IFO Database.

 >Is it not a false generalization on your part to suggest that
 >all "ufologists" (a word that I hate) are equally naive about
 >interpreting photos? I have expressed strong cautions about it
 >in both volumes of The UFO Evidence.

At no time have I suggested or generalized any such thing.
Please try to avoid putting words in my mouth that I did not
say. Remember, we are trying to have a rational and hopefully
mature discussion.

Please elaborate as to what you were trying to say about
interpreting photo's. I am not sure I understand what you are
trying to say here and I want to give an appropriate reply.

 >>Some people seem to like my approach, some don't. Same for your
 >>work, Dick. That's how this list functions - a little something
 >>for everyone.

 >I assume there is some point to this statement of the obvious,
 >but it eludes me.

Sounded pretty-straight forward to me.


A. Hebert







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                   Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:55:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:00:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Hebert


 >From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:33:00 EDT
 >Subject: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting?

 >I came across a sighting report, made in 1999, by you.

 >As I find this report interesting I would like to know
 >what your final conclusions were on those three lights you
 >saw:

 >Source:
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/jun/m11-015.shtml

 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:21:24 EDT
 >Subject: Filer's Files #23 1999

 >Filer's Files #23 --1999, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern Director,
 >June 11, 1999, Majorstar@aol.com

 ><snip>

 >TEXAS
 >LAKE LEWISVILLE -- Amy Hebert reports that on June 6, 1999, I
 >was in my back yard helping my daughter check on her turtle in
 >our pond. I looked up to the west while talking with my
 >daughter and noticed three, large, bright white lights in a row
 >(horizontal) flying to the west at a steady speed at 1:10 PM. I
 >assumed it was an airplane but something seemed strange about
 >the three white lights. I kept watching it while talking to my
 >daughter. Then suddenly three bright red lights emerged from the
 >left side of the three white lights and flew south faster than
 >an airplane would fly. The three bright white lights continued
 >to fly off to the west until I lost sight of it behind the
 >trees. The first object or the three white lights would have
 >been over Lake Lewisville about the time the three red lights
 >emerged. The three white lights were very bright and unusually
 >big as were the three red lights that were a very, very bright
 >red. The lights were not flashing or strobing. The lights were
 >larger than a dime held at arm's length. Thanks to Amy Hebert:
 >yelorose@swbell.net.

 >I think it was indeed an unusual sighting for you. Can you
 >comment on this one ? Thank you.

Santiago,

This sighting is nothing compared to the thing I saw almost
exactly two years prior to the date of this sighting. As I
indicated to John in a previous conversation, what I saw in 1997
is what made me so obsessed with finding the truth.

Since you haven't exactly been friendly towards me lately, you
would have a hey-day with that sighting. <LOL>

If you are trying to dig up stuff on me, maybe you didn't know I
originally started out as an abductions researcher. Got
thoroughly thrashed for that too. I stopped researching
abduction claims when I saw that thing (whatever it was)
hovering over a field behind my house in 1997 (began abductions
research in 1992). However, I am still quite interested in
researching what's called abduction phenomena and intend to
return to my studies in that area when I am through with my
current research into CC&D.

Santiago, I've probably seen more phenomena than you can shake a
stick at (oops, gotta what those clich=E9s!) but I am not going to
reach any conclusions until I have gathered enough evidence to
convince me first, others...well, I'm more interested in finding
the truth for myself and don't really care what others think.
Deep down inside, you and I are probably much the same - we are
both puzzled by phenomena and just want to know what is going
on.

What I have seen personally remains, to this day, a mystery. In
my search to find answers, I've found evidence and information
that provides clues as to the possible nature of some phenomena
and claims but I still don't have the answers as to what it was
I have personally seen.

As for those lights I saw, I don't know what they were or were
not. Could have been just about anything from a UFO to a
misidentification, I don't know.  And I leave it at that until
more information and/or evidence is forthcoming.

I'm sorry, Santiago, but I can't help but wonder if you are
asking because you have a genuine interest or because you are
looking for something to throw at my head. (You haven't been
very polite towards me lately.)

Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:36:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:08:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:56:17 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >>called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 ><snip>

 >>Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
 >>now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
 >>among us will know rods are really insects.

 ><snip>

 >>But please, do not make DVD's, videos, etc. and try to sell your
 >>images as "UFO's" or "Rods"! It's time to stop this type of
 >>hoax.

 >A big amen! Try it with dragon flies in bright sunlight, and you
 >will record real 'hot rods' :) making incredible turns almost
 >puttng any legendary UFO to shame.

 >Those "rods" recorded over Iraq during the war were quite
 >laughable, and it is a shame that certain 'UFO researchers' were
 >declaring them to be something extraordinary or worthy of
 >UFOlogical interest other than as examples of 'noise' and not of
 >signal.

 >Ray Stanford


Hello Ray, Amy and others.


I suppose I have to chime in and agree as well.

My impression was that "rods" started out as another ploy to
hawk videos, books, what-have-you on the Art Bell (now George
Noory) late nite radio show.

Like Richard Hall, I'm getting a bit bothered by the term
'ufologist' as well. I still use it but with caution, applying
it to people whose judgment in these matters seems sound to me.
There are some really good people out there, doing fine work,
but they are way in the minority.

Oh well, back to UFOs. I think I need a cold one first though,
I'm getting too testy.


Best

- Larry Hatch






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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:44:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:10:24 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hatch


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:52:56 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

Hello Amy:


First let me say that I think you are doing a valuable service
by putting up IFO images. This is a welcome change from all the
fuzzy and inconclusive 'UFO' pix out there.

Known IFO images give us a way of calibrating our eyeballs, a
very useful tool. If I could offer some suggestions:

1) Contact me off-List for a recommended host ISP for your
website. By all means register your own domain name. I
registered mine: http://www.larryhatch.net for way less than I
thought it would cost. Site hosting costs something like $11 a
month. Compare that to simple AOL dial up service [chuckle!]

You can email me at any of the following addresses:

<webmaster@larryhatch.net>
<larry@larryhatch.net>
<spot-the-dead-beagle@larryhatch.net>

That's another nice thing, you get all email going to your
domain if you like. The first part helps identify if somebody
wrote in from my website, from this list, or from someplace else
again. Netscape lets you sort incoming messages that way, IE
probably does too.

2) If you have some images that you consider anomalous, by all
means put those up too. This balances the ticket a bit.

3) The next one is a tough call: .avi footage versus still
images. If it were me, I would stick with the stills. Stills are
_way_ faster for site visitors to download. Personally, I don't
have the patience to download movies. I move right on to the
next site. My dial up service is still 56k at best, and life is
short. If somebody wants movies, they should go to Blockbuster
Video. Lots of fun stuff there.

4) I wouldn't debate trifles. This takes precious time away from
more useful things.

5) Please put up IFOs 101 #2! We have all seen way too much
electronic ink on #1.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: Spot the beagle died long, long ago. If I start getting
spammed at the "spot" address, I will know the spammer found it
by dredging thru List archives.







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   May > May 17

                             A David Jacobs Case

From: Eustquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:36:58 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:28:51 -0400
Subject: A David Jacobs Case


Last weekend, at The Brazilian International Congress I spoke
with David Jacobs and he has interesting cases. This is one.

Regards

Memoirs of Shadows by Laura

 From my earliest memory I knew beyond a doubt that my life was
different than other children's lives. I feared the visitors
that would come to my bedroom unseen by my parents in the night.
At the time that I was a child in the late 1940s there were no
movies about ET, Close Encounters, or Independence Day. I knew,
however, that I was fearful of "space aliens" who came to visit
when I was alone and defenseless. Their preferred method of
entry to my room was through a window and my parents were
perplexed at my inordinate fear of sleeping near one. They would
also lure me outdoors where they would be waiting. I struggled
against these liaisons but in the end their will prevailed. I
would hide in a secret refuge in a walk-through closet that led
to my parent's room. I would see bright lights emanating from my
room that no one else was awake to see.

Childhood In childhood, and to some degree in the present, I had
an overwhelming fear of doctors and dentists with their bright
lights and sharp tools. Fear was my constant companion fear of
the darkness, of windows, of being alone in a church, the
outdoors, and of parked aircraft that I imagined would come to
life along with the occupants.

I learned early on not to admit my true fears to adults as they
would very quickly tell me that space aliens did not exist. If I
persisted I was punished. Of the many events occurred in my
childhood two events stand out one of which was explored through
the use of regression. The first one is a partial memory of
encountering a male and female alien couple when I was
approximately seven years of age. One night I was coming home
from visiting my grandmother who lived nearly adjacent to us. As
I reached the halfway point I saw two figures standing behind
the fence. My heart began to race as these were my night
visitors not outwardly different from one another but one male
and one female. They did not speak aloud but they called me to
come to them. In horror I shouted I would not and tried to run
the rest of the way home calling them monsters. The next thing
they uttered I have not forgotten to this day. They told me that
they were my "real parents" and that I should go with them. I
have little memory of what happened after that however I like to
think that I ran and made it home.


Adolescence/Teen Years
Adolescence was for me as everyone an awkward age. Not quite
grown up but flying towards it. The fear remained but I could no
longer run to adults for comfort and protection. I was
developing feelings about my sexuality but most of the time I
was still a child. To the grays I was of reproductive age and of
use to them. Teen years are always turbulent and mine were as
well, but the added hidden dimension was ever present. Odd
occurrences were the norm for me. I worked hard at school, but
nights were unpredictable. I tried in my own way to create a
sense of safety. In my teen years I found that alcohol often
quickly obliterated my fear. This would prove to be a
destructive pattern for my later years. It was during these
years of change that I began feel that I was leading a double
life being a young teen by day, and a reproductive age female
when I was abducted. As I got older I began to rely on alcohol
at night to ease the fear I always felt after dark. In my teen
years I was not abducted as frequently as in adulthood but still
enough to maintain that gnawing fear of being taken.

Adulthood
When I became an adult I had already had many years of training
and indoctrination in what it was like to be a victim of an act
that was both unreportable and unbelievable. I continued to have
abductions but I had the comfort of two things alcohol and the
"spiritual" event people. I became involved with some New Age
and traditional spiritual practices and they for the most part
were able to explain my experiences as visitations from angels,
spirit guides, demons, or ghosts. The problem was that these
explanations didn't always work as the grays couldn't always
pull off looking like any of these. My screen memories were
somewhat convincing in appearance, but the behavior of these
entities never quite fit. Why do spirit guides need to perform
gynecological procedures and why couldn't I remember all the
great stuff they were supposedly teaching me? Why do angels and
demons need spaceships? In my twenties I was driving down a
highway when "the devil" appeared in the back seat of my car and
tried to take it over. Also several times the spirit of my
deceased grandfather appeared to me always when I was alone.
These events have not been fully explored but I suspect they are
not paranormal events.

The fear remained and my alcohol consumption eventually had to
stop. The spiritual solution quit working, so I turned to the
UFO groups. I joined MUFON and it was there that I met Dr. David
Jacobs. At that point in my life I was fairly certain of my
abductions and needed answers and support. I was more aware of
the abductions and some of the memories were very detailed and I
turned to Dr. Jacobs for help investigating them. Regression
hypnosis is not to be undertaken lightly and it tends to open a
door that can never be closed again. I do not regret my decision
to proceed and it gave me a new peace that I cannot fully
explain. It also presented new problems but they are not shadowy
and fragmentary. I have had much support with the memories and
ongoing events. The events have been frequent but I feel somehow
more able to deal with them. I have a video camera trained on me
at night. It has provided relief as I perceive a decrease in
events and a feeling of security that has allowed me to sleep
with less fear. Nothing works 100%, but I am willing to take
something that works perhaps 80% of the time. I feel at times
that I am leading two lives, one that I share with everyone and
the other one that involves abductions. As I am new to these
awarenesses I am still learning how to integrate all of this
information. The grays are not spirit guides and I believe not





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   May > May 18

                         Re: Rods Exposed - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 08:33:13 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Gevaerd


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:21:14 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:56:17 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

<snip>

 >There seems to be an onus on some Ufologists to associate
 >popular world events with UFOs. When war with Iraq seemed
 >inevitable, I started hearing stories that Saddam had a crashed
 >UFO in his possession and that was the real reason the U.S. was
 >invading him.

 >Likewise, when I learned Columbia had gone down, I thought, 'How
 >long will it take someone to blame that on UFOs?' I think a
 >great many of our so-called 'space disasters' have been blamed
 >on aliens by someone or another.

 >Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Jerry's Uncle Leo
 >blames every bad thing that happens to him on anti-Semitism.
 >Such is life. Fiddle-dee-dee.


Ian:

I have got many e-mails for people and Lists all over the world
actuaclly blaming UFOs for the crash of Columbia. And hundreds
of posts describing how UFOs watched closely the attacks of
September 11. Some e-mails I got recently even blame the UFOs
for tornados in USA and earthquakes in Turkey... Nobody that I
know, however, blamed UFOs for the recent killings in Castro's
regime. Yet...


Best, A. J.






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                         Re: Rods Exposed - Herbiet

From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:59:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:14:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Herbiet


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >Last fall I noticed insects flying around a light in the Wal-
 >Mart parking lot and out of the corner of my eye, they looked
 >just like the images being presented for years as "rods".
 >Shortly afterwards, the insect population decreased so I
 >couldn't catch them flying around the lights with my video
 >camera.  I have been waiting all winter for the insects to
 >return.

 >On May 5th, 2003, I finally got my chance to test my hypothesis
 >and spent several hours filming insects flying near the lights
 >in the parking lot near our one-and-only McDonalds restaurant.
 >I filmed the insects (seemed like hundreds of them) with
 >various shutter speeds but got the best results capturing "rod"
 >like images by using the Sports setting.  Even through the
 >viewfinder, I could see the "rods" (aka insects, bugs) flying
 >near the lights.

Hi Amy and the List

I am new to the list but not the phenomena of UFOs. Founded the
ECUFOR in South Africa back in 1982 and was a Mufon member for
some years. Our purpose : to assist in eliminating that which
clouds the proper UFO subject, exposing hoaxes mis-
interpretations and opportunistic individuals trying to make a
name for themselves through Ufology.

Now Amy, re your findings about Rods ... 100% correct ! We had a
similar case here in SA where the person also presented video
footage taken off his balcony of "ufo" flying in our sky but
only visible through " occlusion ", i.e.: screening off the
direct sun disc appearance by means of a roof edge or other
opaque object and videoing the bright " corona " now visible. I
repeated the experiment myself and was able to prove that as you
say these are no more than insects, dust particles and fibers
floating about. The same would apply to any bright source of
light, natural or artificial, when videoing by means of
occlusion. As you say no doubt some folk will not believe this
but this is yet again an example of what confuses the whole UFO
issue. Bottom line, " Rods" in terms of the above do not
constitute a UFO.

Well done Amy ! Try it near the sun and see. Quite spectacular.


Regards to all

Noel Herbiet
ECUFOR







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                       Re: JANAP - 50 years - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:25:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: JANAP - 50 years - Aldrich


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:31:12 -0300
 >Subject: JANAP - 50 years

 >JANAP 146(C) COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL
 >INTELLIGENCE SIGHTINGS FROM AIRBORNE AND WATERBORNE SOURCES -
 >10 MARCH 1954

 >JANAP 146(C)

 >THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
 >JOINT COMMUNICATIONS-ELECTRONICS COMMITTEE
 >WASHINGTON, D. C.

 >10 MARCH 1954

 >LETTER OF PROMULGATION

 >1. JANAP 146(C) COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL
 >INTELLIGENCE SIGHTINGS FROM AIRBORNE AND WATERBORNE SOURCES, is
 >an unclassified publication.

 >2. JANAP 146(C) COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL
 >INTELLIGENCE SIGHTINGS FROM AIRBORNE AND WATERBORNE SOURCES, is
 >effective upon receipt and supersedes JANAP 146 (B),
 >COMMUNICATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPORTING VITAL INTELLIGENCE
 >SIGHTINGS FROM AIRCRAFT (CIRVIS) and all other conflicting
 >instructions. JANAP 146(B) shall be destroyed by burning. No
 >report of destruction is required.

 >CHAPTER II

 >CIRVIS REPORTS

 >SECTION I - GENERAL

 >201. INFORMATION TO BE REPORTED AND WHEN TO REPORT

 >a. Sightings within the scope of this chapter, as outlined in
 >Article 102b(l), (2), and (3), are to be reported as follows:

 >(l) While airborne (except over foreign territory - See Article 212).

 >(a) Single aircraft or formations of aircraft which appear to be
 >directed against the United States, its territories or
 >possessions.

 >(b) Missiles.

 >(c) Unidentified flying objects.

 >(d) Submarines.

 >(e) A group or groups of military surface vessels.

 >(2) Upon Landing.

 >(a) Individual surface vessels, submarines, or aircraft of
 >unconventional design, or engaged in suspicious activity or
 >observed in an unusual location or following an unusual course.

 >(b) Confirmation reports.
 >>202. SIGHTINGS NOT TO BE REPORTED

 >Reports are not desired concerning surface craft or aircraft in
 >normal passage, or known U.S. military or government vessels and
 >aircraft.

 >JANAP 146(C)

 >CHAPTER III

 >MERINT REPORTS

 >SECTION I - GENERAL

 >301. INFORMATION TO BE REPORTED AND WHEN TO REPORT

 >a. Sightings within the scope of this chapter (as outlined in
 >Article 102b., (4), (5), (6), (7) are to be reported as follows:

 >(l) Immediately (except when within territorial waters of other
 >nations as prescribed by international law)

 >a) Guided Missiles
 >b) Unidentified flying objects
 >c) Submarines
 >d) Group or groups of military vessels
 >e) Formation of aircraft (which appear to be directed against
 >the United States, its territories or possessions).
 >f) Individual surface vessels, submarines, or aircraft of
 >unconventional design, or engaged in suspicious activity or
 >observed in an unusual location or following an unusual
 >course.

 >(2) When situation changes sufficiently to warrant an amplifying
 >report (see Art. 409).

<snip>

JANAP 146 was first issued in 1948. It was a revision of an
older reporting system used in World War II. It was quickly
withdrawn because of objection from USAF HQ Intelligence. The
1948 version had nothing to do with UFOs. After several
revisions JAPAN 146 was reissued in late 1950 and CIRVIS reports
started to flow shortly after that. This version did contain UFO
reports.

In 1951, there were complaints from TID (later ATIC) that UFO
reports in the CIRVIS system did not reach Project Grudge.
Attempts were made to fix that, but the system never really
worked well. Ruppelt complained that CIRVIS reports contain so
little information that they were useless and he ignored them.
Project Blue Book records indicate that in many cases he was
correct.

The Air Force issued their own regulations to amplify CIRVIS
reporting. Again success here as with UFO reporting in general
was not complete.

MERINT reports were not in the original JANAP 146, but added at
a later date. (Tony Rullan has done a study of MERINT reports
from ships on the high seas. Many of these reports are of
satellites like Echo I and not as a group very interesting.)

It appears that large number of UFO reports in CIRVIS system
were not recorded in the Project Blue Book files. However, that
is hardly important as most CIRVIS reports are very brief and
contain little details.

JANAP 146 was rescinded in 1996. Other regulations still require
CIRVIS reports, but JANAP 146 was not in force for 50 years.

JANAP 146 was not a UFO reporting regulation, but warning about
possible air or surface activity which might endanger the US and
Canada. UFOs were only a portion of JANAP 146 required
reporting.

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135





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   May > May 18

                          Re: Rods Exposed - Bright

From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:55:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:44:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Bright


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

<snip>

Fantastic work, Amy. This is an excellent example of so-called
"rods", and is open to relatively easy replication under the
right conditions.

It will be interesting to see the response, if any, from such
characters as Jose Escamilla, et al. Mr. Escamilla seemed very
reluctant to correspond with me when I emailed him with some
'awkward' questions last year.

Best, Dan

--
Dan Bright
dan@theunexplained.info





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   May > May 18

                          Re: Rods Exposed - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:21:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:45:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Groff


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to
 >>the so-
 >>called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 >Excellent field research. We need more hands-on study like this.

Yes, indeed. Fine work Amy. Tell me, are you going to do a
similar study of insects in natural light? I suspect you will
have the same result but I'd still like to see it for myself.


Terry Groff
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/






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                         Re: Rods Exposed - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:12:26 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:45:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Tonnies


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:38:23 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >Amy,

 >I don't think you understand what is really going on. What you
 >saw near the light really were rods. Their camouflage is that
 >when they slow down they look like insects so that people would
 >not get freaked out when they see them flying slowly or see rods
 >sitting still on objects.

 >They are some form of mutant aliens here to observe us but do
 >not want direct contact. One way to tell which are real insects
 >or which are these hidden aliens is that the artificial insects
 >never land on people or dog droppings. They also never let
 >humans capture them. :-)

;-)  The funny thing is that some people will read this and
think you're dead serious and that your theory makes sense.

No, wait a second.  That's not funny; it's sad.

On a serious note, I've noted that the utter lack of dead "rods"
(or fossils) is severe evidence that they don't exist.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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   May > May 18

                           New Scientific Journal

From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@netcabo.pt>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:57:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:46:07 -0400
Subject: New Scientific Journal


Dear List members,

We are glad to announce the first edition of a new scientific
Journal - Cons-Ciencias - devoted to the Extraordinary Human
Phenomena, including the alien abduction syndrome and other non-
ordinary states of consciousness, as well the spiritual and
abnormal dimensions of the human being.

The physical, social/human aspects of the UFO phenomena is also
considered since they can be exposed with the corrected
methodology.

This new academic initiative is due to the CTEC Center for
Transdisciplinary Studies on Consciousness, at the University
Fernando Pessoa.

It joint a large international board from Europeans and USA
universities and publish papers and texts in Portuguese,
English, French and Spanish.

This fist issue has 300 pages and insert the Proceedings of the
2th International Symposium Frontiers of Science, held in
October 2001, in Porto. The Cons-Ciencias is directly available
through the University Fernando Pessoa Press Office, a/c Miss
Agata Rosmaninho, by e-mailing

agata@ufp.pt

by phone 225071300

or by snail mail to:

University Fernando Pessoa
Pra=E7a 9 de Abril, 349
4249-004 Porto
Portugal


Thank you

The Editors,

Joaquim Fernandes
Nelson Lima Santos

CTEC/UFP








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                      Re: A David Jacobs Case - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:46:44 -0400
Subject: Re: A David Jacobs Case - Tonnies


 >From: Eustquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:36:58 -0300
 >Subject:  A David Jacobs Case

 >The events have been frequent but I feel somehow
 >more able to deal with them. I have a video camera
 >trained on me at night.

She mentions that this isn't 100% effective, but 80% effective.
Are we to take this to mean that 20% of the time she ends up
with videotape of aliens abducting her?


=====

 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html






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              Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:27:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:51:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof? -


 >From: John Velez<johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:38:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 23,000 Clementine Photos Conspiracy Proof?

 >>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:16:18 -0500

 >>The topic of this thread is "23,000 Clementine photos", alleged
 >>by Ms. White to be secreted away from public viewing. Despite
 >>repeated requests she has avoided offering a single shread of
 >>evidence why this claim should be considered credible. One might
 >>wonder just who is 'interested in the truth', and who merely
 >>enjoys 'believing'.

 >Herr Oberg,

 >Clementine photographic material was classified and kept from
 >the public. (Right before they claimed that it was experiencing
 >mechanical problems.) Whether that material was ever
 >declassified and passed on for public consumption I do not know.
 >I do know that it _was_ classified at one point.

Thank you for telling us that you, too, really really really
really believe this to be true.

My request for evidence to support the claim that 23,000 images
are being withheld, aside from your sincere belief, remains
open.







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                  Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:08:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:53:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting? - Yturria


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:55:52 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting?

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:33:00 EDT
 >>Subject: Amy Hebert's UFO Sighting?

 >>I came across a sighting report, made in 1999, by you.

 >>As I find this report interesting I would like to know
 >>what your final conclusions were on those three lights you
 >>saw:

 >As for those lights I saw, I don't know what they were or were
 >not. Could have been just about anything from a UFO to a
 >misidentification, I don't know. And I leave it at that until
 >more information and/or evidence is forthcoming.

 >I'm sorry, Santiago, but I can't help but wonder if you are
 >asking because you have a genuine interest or because you are
 >looking for something to throw at my head. (You haven't been
 >very polite towards me lately.)


I assure you my interest is legitimate and I will tell you why.
I find the last part of your report very surprising because I am
researching a similar incident happening in England. I will
quote you:

" What is interesting is that I saw this 'splitting' UFO almost
exactly two years to the day. On June 7, 1997, I saw a huge
moonlike UFO that hovered in the field behind my house." All
hell seemed to break loose that month. I got some of it on video
tape! It changed my life so much that I went from ignoring
general UFO reports to reading every UFO report I could get my
hands on for the last two years. I've seen many strange beams of
light coming from the ground all over the place yet there is
nothing out there but open fields and small houses for miles.
Guess it's time to take a hike. Only way I know to access the
area is dirt bike or on foot."

Your reference to that beams of light moving on the ground
coincide exactly with the strange green beams of light with
zapping movements witnessed over the fields in England. These
events have been videotaped with a digital camera in infrared
mode and the next day some circles appeared on the field
including strange simbols burned on the grass. Interestingly
some military choppers arrived to the field the same day flying
very low. All this is documented on video by the witness.

When I received the testimonial and began reviewing the footages
I was very impressed. I never have seen anything like this not
even here in Mexico. I thought that this incidents were destined
to remain as only one of it's kind at least for sometime but
just two days ago the Gowen family from Australia reported to
have witnessed a very similar phenomena in the field outside
their home. Green beams of light with zapping movements and
noises, circles formed ( not the crop circles type just circles
) and certain commotion. Posted here.

UFO UpDate: Crop Circles Puzzle Queensland Farmer

Now you also witnessed something similar, strange beams of light
from the ground and I was surprised but interested at the same
time. I been trying to figure out what these strange beams of
light like " luminous snakes " are and where do they come from.
The ones I have seen on the videos fly very fast in diferent
directions without hitting the witness. They look very bright
turquiose green but this color may be because of the infrared
function. Their flying pattern is always zapping movements and
reviewing in slow motion the videos I found the movements in
random sequence.

The circles and the simbols are consistent with the Gowen family
report from Queensland. These are the three cases I have found
so far of this kind of phenomena and that's the reason of my
interest in knowing about your experience in particular.

I do belive this is real and intriguing but still far to be
understood or explained. I have the evidence that this is
happening and will continue to explore deeply into this
fascinating new manifestation.

If you want to add something to your comments will be most
appreciated.


Regards,

Santiago






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                   Re: New At Roswell Proof Site - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 21:05:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:55:18 -0400
Subject: Re: New At Roswell Proof Site - Rudiak


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:12:17 -0700
 >Subject: New At Roswell Proof Site


 >...Chief of Staff
 >Twining's UFO remarks in 1954 in the midst of the orbiting
 >satellites story, with possible Ramey participation. (Twining
 >said the Air Force had some of their top people studying them
 >and that if they were an advanced civilization then we had
 >nothing to worry about.) Two days before Twining's remarks,
 >Donald Keyhoe broke the orbiting satellites story on Frank
 >Edwards program. Not only can you read news accounts of Keyhoe's
 >remarks, you can also listen to them, courtesy of a rare
 >recording obtained by Grant Cameron. See:

 >www.roswellproof.com/Ramey_info.html
 >www.roswellproof.com/Ramey_and_UFOs.html

 >Incidentally, Grant has a new CD out on Wilbert Smith, which he
 >is practically giving away for $5.00 + $2.00 S/H. This has not
 >only the Keyhoe/Edwards program, but over an hour of audio
 >recordings from Smith's lectures and over a thousand pages of
 >scanned material from Smith's government documents, personal
 >correspondence and articles. Check it out at:

 >http://presidentialufo.com/flyer.htm

Some additions and corrections:

Wendy Connors just e-mailed me to let me know that Grant Cameron
obtained the Keyhoe/Edwards program from her. She was also the
first one to leak AFR 200-2 to Edwards in the early '60s. Way to
go Wendy!

The correction is that there are over 10 hours of audio, not 1
hour. Included, e.g., is Stan Friedman's phone interview with
Dr. Robert Sarbacher.

David Rudiak







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                    Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:26:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:58:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Gates


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:05:57 -0700
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:36:08 -0400
 >>Subject: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood

 >>As many people recall today, May 15th was the big day for many
 >>of the planet-x-ers, Hazelwood, Zeta talk for the earth to stop
 >>spinning, the magnetic field to change, massive earthquakes and
 >>everything else to happen. What does all of this have to do with
 >>UFOs? A brief review, then the UFO tie in.

 >>Its 5/15/03, still no sign of Zeta talk/Hazelwood's Pole
 >>Shift/Planet X. No sign of the so-called earth changes and no
 >>sign of anything else other then all the usual events on Planet
 >>Earth. Folks have already started rationalizing away the thus-
 >>far non-event with tales about how this is a good lesson to be
 >>watchful, how the event is really going to happen at a later
 >>date, and why all the bandwidth, books and videos that were sold
 >>were really not wasted, etc., etc.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Robert:

 >How about some full names and URLs so we can see just what was
 >predicted, by whom, and who bought into it?

Larry,

The planetx drival has been around literally for years.

Zetatalk was started off by a housewife named Nancy who was
supposedly channelling this information from ET messengers. The
big zeta notion is planetX goes by and the earth stops rotation
for about a day and the pole shift happens, not to mention major
earth changes, earth quakes and everything else.

According to Nancy, she first appeared with/on Michael Lindemann
in 1995, later on Strange Univerise, Sightings, Art Bell, not to
mention being featured in Art Bells magazine, not to mention
others.

For a summary which talks about the above, see:

http://www.zetatalk.com/usenet/use90387.htm

Naturally Zeta apparently dislike/dispise Hazelwood and it is
likely the feeling is mutual because Hazelwood claims that
zetatalk was exposed as NASA disinformation 5 months ago.
  Hazelwood has appeared on a number of radio shows promoting his
planetx book Blindsided. He supposedly claimed on the Hal Turner
radio show that the event is going to happen sometime between
May 15th and May 30th of this year and the earth will stop
turning for 3 days instead of 1 (Zetatalk) etc etc. Elsewhere
the event is scheduled to happen between May 24-31. Hazelwoods
site is planetx2003.com; there is a host of other web sites
promoting essentially his theory a couple of which are
shift2003.com and prep2003.com not to mention a host of others
including yahoo news groups, various discussion groups and so
on.

Some of the folks were advocating various differently
constructed buildings as a means of surviving the disasters such
as dome construction or something like that.

At this point you probably won't find anybody (perhaps a few)
that will admit to believing anything that was channeled by the
Zetas. Likewise on June 1 or 2nd, you probably will be hard
pressed to find anybody that will claim that they believed
Hazelwood. The various radio shows will likely be silent and
instead wanting to promote the next theory/notion/tale that
comes along.

Cheers,

Robert





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                      UK Ufology - Scandal In The Wind?

From: Chris Parr <parros@roswelldog.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 02:51:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:31:41 -0400
Subject: UK Ufology - Scandal In The Wind?


The "Worlds best footage" - a systematic claim from U.K
Ufology's frequent "experiencer" who seems to have the free time
with his/her camcorder to consistently monitor the paranormal
behaviour of the skies. This must appear to be a disturbing
pattern?

If a doctor was exposed for malpractice... we would want to
remove the doctor from continuing to abuse the ethics in place.
For some bizarre reason, ufology cannot stop the charlatans
re-inventing themselves.

Can anybody be concerned from the previous and vile example of
UFO footage forwarded by David Spoor? I wonder... no blame or
conscience attached?

UK Ufology appears most reluctant to expose the many blatant
(historical) falsehoods of 'promoted UFO footage'. It appears
that the experiencers can survive any objective scrutiny... This
may encourage certain people to capture helium balloon/stunt
kite footage and portray this as UFO evidence... please... can
we move forward and rid ufology of such damaging UFO-related
claims?


Regards

Chris Parr







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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:35:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:46:50 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 ><snip>

 >>Fair enough. I shall clarify for the List:

 >>The claim that aliens are habitually visiting the earth
 >>(crashing into our deserts, abducting humans, mutilating cattle,
 >>carving crop circles in wheat fields, et al.) requires
 >>extraordinary evidence.

 >>The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
 >>bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
 >>evidence. Alien bases on the Moon, Mars, underground, aliens
 >>abducting us, mutilating us and our cattle, are some fairly wild
 >>ideas. Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
 >>don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound person
 >>to believe them.

 >>Because the people who tell such stories seem sincere? Because
 >>they have no reason to lie?

 >>I really hope they have more proof than that. Sadly, they
 >>usually don't.

 >OK then Ian -

 >Please prove that it isn't ET perpetrating these things and who
 >is actually perpetrating them. Could it be the military? If it
 >is then the folk sufferring should take their own country to
 >high court and get true justice done.

 >These things have gone on for too many years now and anyone with
 >an ounce of sense wants answers, not to be told they are mad.

A-ha! The classic question-with-a-question that so many throw
at me. "How do you know it ISN'T aliens?"

Well, I'll tell you something: It's not my job to disprove the
wacky theories going around. It's the job of the people making
such claims to back them up with suitable evidence. Though, as
it's clearly been seen on this list, it doesn't take that much
to convince some people.

It's like someone who sees a UFO in the sky and says, 'Hey,
look, a vehicle from another planet," and I say, 'How do you
know it's from another planet?' You're telling me that an
adequate reply would be 'How do I know it isn't?'

Forgive me but that sounds pretty lame. The onus is on the
person making the claim to back it up. It's not on me to
disprove it. I've never been a debunker. I have never come here
and torn apart any one specific case. I have never said alien
abduction isn't happening. I have said it will take more than
scoop marks and lost time to convince me. I have never said the
government isn't lying - about what, who knows, but that
doesn't necessarily preclude a dark deal with human-eating,
cattle-mutilating grays. I just got told the other day that
grays might have eight fingers (something related to binary code
and back-engineered alien technology that I can honestly say I
didn't give much attention to). So now we know grays have eight
fingers? How many abductees have reported any number of fingers
on an alien's hand? I'm willing to be that a great many number
of fingers have been given over the years, so to say that they
have eight, on the words of one of the many alleged alien
abductees... I mean, do I really need to say any more?

All I have said is that it will take more evidence than it
clearly takes some people here to convince me of the rather
large claim that aliens are visiting this planet and constantly
crashes their ships into the remote regions of our planets. No
one wanted to take me up on that challenge, I noticed. Of all
the supposed UFO crashes (and retrievals) not one of them
occurred in a location that wasn't remote or in place that made
verification difficult if not impossible. Again, I have to say
thank you to all the alien pilots who managed to avoid dumping
their ships in populated areas.

To say that enough evidence already exists and that the real
problem is that the media won't take people in Ufology seriously
is nonsense. If there was a news story here, they would be
covering it - not for Ufology but for themselves. There simply
isn't enough meat (yet) to get them really interested. Or maybe
it's the government controlling all the major newswires and
publishers. I don't know. I'm sure someone here does.

Ian Rogers






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                             STS-48 & Larry King

From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:47:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:51:01 -0400
Subject: STS-48 & Larry King


On June 26, 1996 I appeared on Larry King Live on CNN with Jim
Oberg and the topic was STS-48. It was lively as you can see
from the transcript below.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Source: Larry King Live
06/26/92

Larry King: Welcome back to Larry King Live.

A camera aboard the space shuttle Discovery recorded a curious
sight nine months ago. Some UFO researchers are calling it a
breakthrough video: a clear view of a craft, not one of ours,
performing a high-speed maneuver. Others, with years in the
space program, say it's just plain old debris. Judge for
yourself.

The mission was STS-48, flown in September of last year. As
Discovery circled the Earth, the camera picks up what looks like
an object drifting from right to left, then suddenly and
strangely veering off to the right and out of view, followed by
what looks like a tracer or laser from the bottom to the top of
the screen. Another, closer look: The object appears to change
direction. NASA says it was waste water dumped from Discovery.
UFO enthusiasts disagree and claim NASA has long hidden the full
extent of outer space UFO encounters.

With us from Los Angeles - Don Ecker of UFO Magazine. In Houston
- space engineer and author, James Oberg, who worked on ground
communications for this shuttle mission, the one in question.
Don, why are you so sure this is a UFO?

Don Ecker - 'UFO' Magazine: Well, it certainly has all the
appearances, Larry, of being something that is unidentified. It
certainly appears to be flying. And we do not normally associate
waste water - or, as some pundits are calling it, urine in space
- to make drastic right-angle turns.

King: Why would NASA want to hide it?

Ecker: Why would the United States Government want to keep this
subject under wraps for 45 years? That's an excellent question.

King: Why?

Ecker: Well, we could certainly go into the realm of
speculation.....

King: I mean, the Government denies it, so you're going to have
to tell me why you think they hide it.

Ecker: OK. Well, to begin with, I have a couple of questions
that I want to address to Jim first, Larry, that I think are
germane. To begin with, good evening, Jim. And I have a couple
of questions. To begin with, what capacity are you here in this
evening? Are you here....?

King: Hold it. They're straightening out Jim's microphone. So
let me get straight with you and then they'll let me know and
we'll be ready to take that through. When you saw these tapes
for the first time, were you just feeding your own, for want of
a better term, frenzy, something you'd been wrapped up with for
a long time? Or did you turn this over for analysis? Did you
look at it? Did you investigate their explanation?

Ecker: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I have the documents
with me with what NASA had claimed that these particular
anomalous objects are. There are several events on this
particular tape that originally came from a cable television
channel back in the Maryland area that downlinked it on the NASA
K-band. Basically, this was event number two, which shows a
number of anomalous objects in this particular segment of
footage, and there are a number of things that just simply don't
stack up with what NASA is claiming that these things are. If
you watch the entire segment, you will notice that several
moments after this particular event happens, NASA begins
preparing for the waste water dump.

King: OK, now, James are you with us now? Are we clicked in OK?

JAMES OBERG, Space Engineer: That's fine. We can talk to outer
space OK, but I had a problem with your.....

King: OK, that's James Oberg, space engineer and author. He
worked on flight control for the shuttle mission. And you say
this is not phenomena, right?

Oberg: It's a phenomenon that's very familiar. Larry, we see
this since the fireflies on John Glenn's flight 30 years ago.
Spacecraft are surrounded by clouds of debris - ice, dust,
insulation, and other fragments. These pieces - and I've seen
these tapes and I've seen hundreds of hours of tapes like that -
  are fairly ordinary phenomena.

King: OK, Don has a couple of quick questions for you. Don?

Ecker: Yes. Jim, what capacity are you here in this evening? Are
you here as a civilian? Are you here as a representative of
Lockheed....?

Oberg: I'm not representing.....

Ecker: ... or of NASA?

Oberg: Don, don't give loaded questions, here. I have no
connection with Lockheed. I'm a space nut. I'm interested in
outer space myths and folklore-

Ecker: So in other words, you're here on your own accord?

King: Yes, in other words, James, you're not here representing
NASA, right?

Oberg: I'll play it back, Don. I'm not here as editor of a
magazine trying to sell subscriptions.

King: OK, no, James.....

Ecker: OK, let me ask you this.....

King: Hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it.....

Ecker: Let me ask you this.....

King: Hold it, hold it.....

Ecker: James.....

King: Don... Don... Don, hold it. It's my show. James, you're
not here as a representative of NASA, right?

Oberg: No. No, I have written on this subject for a long time.

King: OK. Did you work on this mission?

Oberg: Yes, I did.

King: In what capacity?

Oberg: I was in the flight control center, part of helping the
deployment of one of the satellites. So I was there for.....

King: Are you a contracted employee to NASA?

Oberg: Yes. Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

King: OK, but tonight you appear as James Oberg, space
engineer.....

Oberg: That's right.

King: ... not representing NASA?

Oberg: That's correct.

Ecker: All right, Larry, I have one more question for Jim.....

King: OK, now, go ahead, Don. Go ahead.

Ecker: Yes, I have one more question for him. Jim, are you
working here under the constraints of any security agreements
that you may have signed with NASA?

Oberg: No, I'm not. Myself's not the issue. The issue are these
pictures and the big deal people are making out of it.

Ecker: Well, this is a simple question, Jim. Are you working
under security constraints?

King: All right, no, James, that's a fair question. Did you sign
any kind of an agreement with NASA not to reveal certain things?

Oberg: DOD material, yes. This is not, and this is not covered.
Nothing about this material is covered.....

Ecker: All right, let me... One last question, Jim.....

King: 'DOD' means Department of Defense material?

Oberg: Department of Defense, that's right.

King: OK. Go ahead, Don.

Ecker: One last question, and this question is very simple. With
the security agreements that you have signed, before we start
addressing this particular segment of footage, if you had any
awareness of anomalous objects, would you be free to talk about
them? And I'm talking about anomalous objects that are not our
debris or our spacecraft.

Oberg: I am totally free to talk about these kinds of topics,
anything seen on the shuttle. I have talked about it. I have a
long history of writing for Omni Magazine and other magazines
and books.....

Ecker: Well, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying.....

Oberg: ...because it's clear.....

Ecker: You're usually on.....

Oberg: I'm giving you an expert opinion.....

King: Don, Don, Don... Hold it. Guys, hold it. This is not a
trial, Don. He answered the question. If it was not a Defense
Department fear, he could talk about anything. Now, would you
briefly, James.....

Oberg: There was nothing on STS-48 that was classified, nothing
on that flight.

King: All right. Would you tell us, you are convinced beyond
question that this is debris?

Oberg: This looks just like it. Now, it could be someone
masquerading at it. Look at those pieces. They're small pieces.
Why is it that we see these..... It's always small pieces, just
at the limit of the cameras. There are always pieces like that
floating around. When jets fire, when things leak out or are
expelled from the shuttle, the jets hit pieces. They change
direction. I've seen it- I wouldn't say hundreds of times, but
I've seen it before on other missions.

King: Don, what do you think it is? If it's a UFO, what is it,
Don?

Ecker: Well, to begin with, Larry.....

King: I mean, why don't they land here and talk to us?

Ecker: If, in fact, it were debris..... And Jim is very well
aware that debris will tumble, will toss, will turn while in
orbit. The close-up digitally-enhanced segment of this
particular footage shows absolutely no tumbling motion,
whatsoever. This is moving in a straight line. It makes a
drastic right-angle turn, shoots off into space. Now, if, in
fact, it were a result.....

Oberg: Don's got to watch some more tapes. He's got to watch a
few hundred more hours of tapes and he'll see this all the time.

Ecker: If, in fact, Jim..... Just a moment. If, in fact, it were
a piece of debris and if the attitude thrusters from the shuttle
had been fired, then, the way the camera was set up on that
particular mission, the entire shuttle picture would have moved,
because it did several moments after this particular incident.

Oberg: I'm just amazed how much Don can learn about the space
program from so many thousands of miles away from Mission
Control. These are the kinds of things.....

Ecker: Well, if, in fact, Jim, we're going to talk about this,
fine. If we're going to start ad hominem attacks, that's
something else.

Oberg: All right, let's go back to the films.

King: We'll come right back with James Oberg and Don Ecker.
We'll also include your phone calls on this extraordinary topic
that never goes away. This is Larry King Live. Don't you go
away.

[Commercial break]

King: Let's start to include your phone calls for Don Ecker -
  he's a researcher with UFO Magazine - and James Oberg, space
engineer and author. Huntsville, Alabama - famous area for outer
space - hello. 4th CALLER: {Huntsville, Alabama} Hello?

King: Yes.

4th CALLER: My name is O.H. Bond, Jr. {sp?}. I'm in Huntsville,
Alabama.

King: Yes, sir.

4th CALLER: I have an experiment on the shuttle which has flown
a number of times called the Mesoscale Lightning Experiment
{sp?}, in which we look for mesoscale lightning and we look for
the effects of unusual events which occur in space.

King: And?

4th CALLER: Particularly, we look for lightning events which
we've seen to go 20 miles straight up into the stratosphere from
cloud stocks.

King: Meaning?

4th CALLER: The question I want to ask you guys is..... With
respect to these flying objects, I agree with James Oberg. From
what I have seen over numbers of years of looking at video
images, this is debris from the spacecraft, as far as I can
determine. And the second thing is I believe that many of the
objects we see are the other debris which is in orbit.

King: Don?

Ecker: I would have to ask, Larry, that if, in fact, this is the
case that this was debris from the shuttle, why is it not
tumbling? Why did it make such a drastic turn? The fact that
NASA claims.....

Oberg: Can I answer that? If you give me some time, I can answer
that.

Ecker: Well, the question was addressed to me first, and I'm
asking the question, Jim, and then you can go to it.

Oberg: And you'll make sure that you don't..... You don't want
the answer.

King: All right, but it's a fair question that Don puts, and let
Jim respond to it. Why would a piece of debris move like that?
I've never seen debris move like that.

Oberg: Well, you have to..... People can watch this. As the
shuttle is going through orbit, people don't realize there are
more than 50 points on the nose of the shuttle, the tail, on the
side- more than 50 points where debris, water, ice, come off...
from the belly. And as these pieces come off and rocket engines
can fire, they'll form what are called plumes. They'll form a
blast. And as debris will go into that area, they will turn, and
you can watch this. Fortunately, we have on the SATCOM F2R
satellite and on many, many cable networks the NASA select from
space flight. It's the reason that these people saw this tape in
the first place. I would simply recommend that they and anyone
else watch that tape for more than a few hours. Watch it for
several years, in terms of the missions. And they'll be seeing
this kind of event. But the thing about why these are just
debris and not spacecraft, alien spacecraft- They're always
small. They're always just at the limit of the camera.

King: But you don't know.....

Oberg: No matter how much the camera is zoomed in, it's still
just a dot.....

King: James, this isn't 100 percent.....

Oberg: ... and that just tells you these are little pieces.

King: You don't know it for sure, but it's your best educated
guess, right?

Oberg: I'll tell you, if we saw some real spacecraft..... If I
saw some real spacecraft - and I know many people in the space
program - saw something out there that could be really proof of
something revolutionary, there's no power on earth that would be
able to stop people from coming out and being on your show-

Ecker: Larry, one thing.....

King: All right, let me get a call in. Sykesville, Maryland,
hello.

5th CALLER: {Sykesville, Maryland} Hello, this is Vincent
DiPietro.

King: Yes.

5th CALLER: From Sykesville, Maryland.

King: Yes.

5th CALLER: I originally did an analysis of this very tape that
you're showing on TV.

King: Uh-huh.

5th CALLER: And I'd like to make a few comments about this.

King: Are you a scientist?

5th CALLER: I work at Goddard Space Flight Center. I'm an
engineer.

King: OK.

5th CALLER: I work with the space program.

King: All right.

5th CALLER: But I'm doing this freelance. And I'd like to say
that I've sent this to a number of scientists, called a number
of engineers, and they've all described this event as ice.

King: Ice?

5th CALLER: Ice, that has turned in a way..... If you look at
the other debris that's on the screen, you'll see that in every
case there is a right-angle turn that is made of this debris. In
other words, it's not.....

Ecker: Well, Vince..... Vince, let me ask you a question,
because I have the entire tape. And I also have the section that
you digitally enhanced that shows clearly a domed disc object
that was recorded on this mission. Do you deny that?

5th CALLER: I see that on there, and I do not know what that is.

Ecker: Did you digitally enhance it?

5th CALLER: Yes.

Ecker: OK. Did it look to you like an anomalous object, or did
it look like debris or ice?

5th CALLER: It looks like an object, but I can't explain what it
is. And I'm not saying that it isn't something that you're
describing. The only thing I'm saying is that the explanation
that I have gotten is that this debris is ice. There's no way of
determining how big it is. It could be a micro-inch, a couple of
inches. It's certainly not several hundred feet across, as a lot
of people would be led to believe. And the explanation I got was
that there were rockets, little tiny rockets, that are used to
change the attitude of the spacecraft on the sides; that when
those things go off..... It's nitric acid and hydrozene that
fires these rockets. When they go off.....

Ecker: Yes, and there is no flash, either, is there, Vince?

5th CALLER: There is a flash that you can see at the beginning.
And if you are so careful as to take a piece of cellophane and
put it onto your TV set, you will see that all of these
objects..... Not the ones that are stars, because the stars you
can clearly see go behind the horizon. But if you look at the
debris that flies from left to right and so forth, everything
makes a right-hand turn. It's even less.....

Ecker: Well, Vince, since you worked on this particular piece of
footage, let me ask you another question. Before this event
happens, this object rises up out of the blackness and is
traveling from right to upper left. Now, if, in fact, it was
there prior to the start of this sequence, how do you explain
that?

5th CALLER: I explain that in this way. If you listen {sp?} to
the tape carefully, you will see that the spacecraft is just
coming out of twilight into sunlight. Now, if there was debris
flying around in the blackness of space, you would not see it
until it was lit up.

King: OK. All right, we're going to have to do some more on
this.....

Oberg: Or it might have come over the payload bay where the
lights are. Either way, that would explain it.

King: Let me get a break, and we'll come right back. Thanks for
calling, Vince, by the way. We'll come back with more. This is
fascinating - I don't understand it, but it's fascinating! Don't
go away.

[Commercial break]

King: All right, we're running close on time. Don, are we ever
going to see one of these land on the White House lawn and speak
to us?

Ecker: Well, I don't know about landing on the White House lawn,
Larry, but we had in 1952 three flights that overflew the White
House. I have one last question that I want to ask Jim very
quickly and briefly.

King: All right, real fast.

Ecker: Jim, are you aware of any NASA studies on UFO phenomena?

Oberg: I'm aware, Don, of 30 years of phony stories.....

Ecker: And I'm not saying spaceships. I'm saying.....

Oberg: ... in UFO magazines.....

Ecker: I'm saying.....

Oberg: ... taking transcripts.....

King: Guys, we'll have you both come back. We're out of time.
Thanks, fellows.....

Oberg: ... and faking them.

King: OK, thanks. We're out of time. Thanks very much. Hope you
enjoyed this edition of 'Don Ecker Live' from Washington.
{laughs} A little fun there.







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   May > May 19

                           Skeptics - An Editorial

From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:59:00 -0400
Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial



The following is an Editorial I wrote for the Destination Space
Website. I think it is germane here.

----------------------------------------------------------------


UFO Enigma
Editorial: Skeptics or Debunkers?
By Don Ecker, Director of Research
 From The Desk of UFO MAGAZINE

As I started to think about this month's topic for Destination
Space, I had several things going on at once. I have been
working on a book of Lunar Anomalies and of course my job with
UFO Magazine takes most of my time. Just about a week had passed
since I had started reading a new book we received at the
magazine, a book that I just reviewed and that will end up being
the next "must have, must read" for this generation. This book
is titled "UFOs and the National Security State" written by one
Richard M. Dolan. (I will be talking more about this book in the
future.)

While all this was going on I also received, addressed to me,
something I immediately put a jaundiced eye on, a letter trying
to get me to subscribe to the Skeptical Inquirer. Now why would
I feel so strongly about the Skeptical Inquirer? And what is the
Skeptical Inquirer? Well, in the letter it was described as the
"magazine for science and reason" and that can't be too bad, can
it? Let me give you a paragraph or two from the letter:

"This magazine is created by editors, scientists, and writers
who are as fascinated by the extraordinary and the mysterious as
you are. But unlike most of the 'wide-eyed' amateurs who call
themselves experts, they're not afraid to look a little
closer... to ask some pointed questions... to bring science to
bear on the issue-because they want to truly solve the mystery,
not wallow in it. (Oh goody! My comment) That's where the fun
is. And, believe me, it's a wild ride!"


Oh yeah, it is a wild ride for sure. But wait, just like the
Ginzu Knives commercial, there is more! I also received a
"personal note" from Nobel Laureate Leon M. Lederman addressed
to 'me.' It started with: Don Ecker

"Dear Friend, I have found great articles in the Skeptical
Inquirer that *debunk such examples of 'junk science' as UFOs in
Roswell, cold fusion, ghosts and haunted houses, astrology,
fortune tellers, crying statues, etc., etc. The exercise of
rational (scientific) thinking is essential to preserving our
long-term commitment to rationality. Skepticism is an essential
attribute of good thinking. Sincerely, Leon M. Lederman Nobel
Laureate-Physics 1988."

Ooo, I felt better already. I decided to compile a list of
writers, former and current for the Skeptical Inquirer and see
what kind of rationality we came up with. And one or two names
have expired or gone on to that great rational hall in the sky,
so if still alive, I am sure they would write for the Skeptical
Inquirer. Here goes.....

What skeptical observation can begin without mentioning Dr.
Donald Menzel, the grandpa of all UFO skeptics? Menzel was the
man who put the "ad" in "ad hominem." Of course next would be
Philip J. Klass, who bills himself as the Sherlock Holmes of UFO
investigations. (Oh, really?) Jim Oberg, former NASA contractor
and "up and coming" debunker. Carl Sagan, pop astronomer, former
SETI proponent and debunker extraordinaire would fit right in
there, and I cannot forget another "up and comer" Michael
Shermer. Now some meaner guys, (not to suggest some of the above
were not nasty now and then) Martin Gardner, Joe Nickell, Curtis
Peebles, and Robert Sheaffer. This list is kind of a "Who's
Who."

So, what is it that I think that suggests I am not ready to buy
the "honest effort" that these guys put out to bring rationality
to UFOs? And... why is it that the UFO subject is always thrown
in with the ghosts, astrologers, haunted houses, fairies and so
on? After all, when the United States Air Force was publicly
chasing saucers they did not have a "fairies officer" or a
"ghost" officer or a "haunted house" officer, but they did have
a UFO officer on *each Air Force base. That should say
something. But my experience by and large is that the skeptical
community "explains that which is un-investigated, and does not
investigate that which is unexplained." Let me explain.....

Philip J. Klass is today considered to be the premier UFO
skeptic alive. Klass, now fast approaching 80 years of age, has
slashed and burned his way across the landscape for about 35
years. Over the now almost 15 years I have been chasing the
phenomenon, I have had a number of encounters with "kindly old
Phil." Now please, do not get the idea that I am billing myself
as the "know all and seen it all" guy, but I have been around
the block with a bunch of skeptics in all those years. In my
encounters with Klass, Oberg, Sheaffer, Shermer and others I
have found that *without exception they *all have taken a page
from Robert Low, Project Coordinator of the Condon Committee,
and instead of attacking the cases -- they will attack the
witnesses. Slashing and burning the word, reputations and
character of people reporting on the UFO phenomenon. (In a
humorous moment when I was on Larry King Live debating Jim Oberg
on the STS-48 shuttle UFO, Oberg accused me of coming on the
program to sell magazines when I asked him if he was operating
under any security restrictions. The "ad hominem attack!)

I do not have either the time or space to give you a litany of
each skeptic I have named, so this month I will simply zero in
on one, Phil Klass.

Klass entered the UFO scene around 1966. A former editor with
Aviation Week & Space Technology, he would seem to be an
excellent choice to examine the UFO subject and present an
honest and critical eye on some of the more difficult UFO cases.
Alas, that was not to be. After Klass wrote his first UFO book
"UFOs-Identified" where he claimed UFOs were anomalous, but not
alien, Klass theorized that UFOs were caused by ball lighting
and free floating plasmas. Even the University of Colorado study
(Condon) found this theory to be scientifically unsustainable.
Dr. James McDonald, an atmospheric physicist and proponent of
legitimate UFO study, tore Klass's arguments apart using
scientific reasoning and facts. Klass then decided McDonald must
be dangerous and dealt with, after all he was "pro-UFO."
McDonald was working for the Office of Naval Research who funded
his trip to Australia to conduct cloud-physics studies, and
Klass went on a rampage at ONR writing letters demanding to know
who funded McDonald to conduct UFO research in Australia, and
later trips McDonald was to take to Europe and the USSR. Klass
also enlisted other sympathetic journalists to assist him in a
campaign that lasted 1 and one half years. The ONR conducted an
audit of McDonald that cleared him, but then cut McDonald off
from any further grants. They were afraid of further bad press.
At this point I would ask the Skeptical Inquirer about rational
and scientific open mindedness.

Klass's position is such that if anyone is willing to propose
that some cases might possibly be explained as off world
technology, then they are only seeking celebrity status or
attempting to make money. At this point, Klass then zeroes in on
the character of the researcher. In 1983, Klass began an attack
directed against the University of Nebraska because they were
sponsoring a UFO conference. In a conversation with the
university's administrator Klass charged that "ufologists 'seek
what the Soviet Union does, to convey to the public that our
government can not be trusted, and I resent it as an American
citizen." He equated UFO research with communism, as un-
patriotic and anti-American. Klass went on to phone faculty and
further claimed that for the university to sponsor such a
conference (UFOs) was comparable to the dilemma they would face
if the American Nazi Party wanted to hold a conference there.
Later CSICOP spokesman Mark Plummer wrote that he found nothing
excessive in Klass's claims.

I had personal experience with Klass on two different occasions
when he displayed his fanatic anti-UFO sentiments. In 1992, I
was invited to debate Klass in Denver, sponsored by ParaNet and
MICAP. During the debate we began to discuss the Frederick
Valentich case. This was a case of a young Australian pilot who
disappeared in 1978 after radioing that he was being approached
by a huge UFO. (The RAAF became involved in this case, but no
aircraft or body was ever located.) Klass began by calling
Valentich a "drug smuggler." I was not about to allow him to get
away with that and demanded he prove his assertion. His proof?
Valentich had four life preservers in his aircraft. Klass has
operated on the assumption that if the case cannot be discarded
because the claims can't be disproved, then it *must be a hoax
because UFOs simply cannot be real!


The next run in with Klass happened near the end of January
1995. I had invited Klass on my two hour, weekly radio program
UFOs Tonite!. During the program Klass had threatened to hang up
when I challenged him about his assertion that Major Jesse
Marcel, when picking up debris from the Roswell Incident, was
trying to claim a $3,000 reward offered by a newspaper for proof
of a flying saucer. Klass got very testy when I challenged him
on the statement that Marcel, the intelligence officer of the
most elite military group in the world, would attempt collect a
reward. (By the way, there is no proof of such a reward being
offered that I was ever able to locate.) He threatened to hang
up at that point. Later during the program we were discussing
the 1952 overflights of Washington DC, when Klass tried to
suggest the Air Force was not worried because they took over an
hour to send up jet interceptors. I informed Klass the reason
was that the local Air Force bases were repairing runways and
the jets had to be flown in from Delaware. (I had the proof
including a statement by Al Chop who was then the Air Force
liaison with its Blue Book operation) Klass became enraged and
began screaming "Bullshit!" over the air. When I expressed my
indignation to him, he became embarrassed and hung up his
telephone mid-show! (Another time Klass "lost it" and began
screaming profanities to a national audience occurred about 1993
on the Larry King show. Klass appeared with Travis Walton and
Mike Rogers, and Rogers accused Klass of being a government
agent. Klass in a 'klassic-display' of temper screamed, 'MIKE
ROGERS!, YOU'RE A GODDAMNED LIAR!") This is the rational thought
demonstrated by the likes of the Skeptical Inquirer and CSICOP
that I have encountered.

The bottom line is the fact that UFOs are real (but I am not
saying necessarily ET, but some cases _do_ suggest that) and the
United States Government is hiding the information. Perhaps they
still feel that they are 'protecting us', but I don't buy it.
When my tax dollars help defray the costs of all these damned
secret programs, and then I am lied to, to boot... well, damn
it, I feel used. _And_ - if the skeptics are honest, and not
much proof of that yet - either... in their heart of hearts they
know it to be true. More on this later and remember to keep your
eyes to the skies.








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   May > May 19

                CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:30:15 -0400
Subject: CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA?


Cydonian Imperative
5-18-03

Exclusive: New Image of the "Face" Withheld by NASA?
by Mac Tonnies

see: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

For the first time since beginning this website, I have received
what appears to be conclusive evidence of a NASA effort to
photograph the Cydonia region without the public's knowledge.
The image below ("E1701041C") does not appear on any publicized
NASA site. It was sent to me by a source who will remain
anonymous. Initial investigation suggests that it is quite real
and taken in 2003 by the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) satellite.

The image is presented as received (upside-down). Note the
"stretched" effect. Until ancillary data is released by Malin
Space Science Systems, a faithful orthorectifation cannot be
produced, although previous images of the Face may help image
processors arrive at a more accurate representation.

I had wondered if perhaps this was actually an early,
unprocessed version of E03-00824, the first overhead image of
the Face taken by the MGS in 2001, but this doesn't seem to be
the case; the "raw" version of E03-00824 is free of the
excessive contrast seen here and exhibits no sign of elongation.
Could I be the victim of a (perhaps unknowing) hoax? Could the
"leaked" image be a mangled version of E03-00824? While I don't
think so, I offer the possibility to anyone who wishes to test
the notion.

[image]

Image "E1701041C"

The image, though high-contrast, reveals a significant level of
detail when subjected to image processing techniques. Probably
the most readily apparent secondary detail is the western "eye,"
which appears as a blunt pyramidal shape surrounded by an
almond-shaped ring and radiating cells.

The last officially released photo of the Face formation was
disappointingly partial. It is interesting that this image,
withheld from public inspection, depicts the Face in its
entirety. Such accuracy tends to suggest that acquiring high-
resolution images of the Face is not only easier than NASA/MSSS
would have the public believe, but that NASA has a continuing
interest in studying the Cydonia region. The reasons for the
space agency's near-silence on the Cydonia issue, in light of
the image above, are far from trivial.

Prior to the loss of the Mars Observer in the early 1990s, NASA
assured the public that images of the Face, if taken, would
become public domain. Again, during the continuing Mars Global
Surveyor mission, NASA officials promised interested parties
that not only would new images of Cydonia be immediately
uploaded onto the Internet, but that imaging opportunities would
be announced in advance.

Clearly, these promises have been fictitious.

-end-







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   May > May 19

                       A Professional Hypnotherapist?

From: Michael Harman <rocketman5047@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:49:19 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:33:37 -0400
Subject: A Professional Hypnotherapist?


I need the assistance of a professional Hypnotherapist. I have
been investigating an abduction case of a single mom with one
child who has been abducted repeatedly throughout her life.
Anyone interested on taking this on for research purposes? I
believe this case also verifies the "Baby Ann" syndrome as
reported by Budd Hopkins in his book "Witnessed". Budd seems to
be all too busy these days. Part of her case is on my seb site
listed below.


Mike Harman
UFO-PI www.ufopi.freehomepage.com
817 649-0537








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   May > May 19

                            CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:35:25 -0400
Subject: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?



Cydonian Imperative
5-19-03


Martian "Cacti"?

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)


The new Face image isn't the only oddity greeting visitors to
the USGS' labyrinthine file directory. Check out these apparent
cactus-like formations:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg


Unlike e_1701041.imq.jpg, I don't know where - if it all - this
image can be found on Malin Space Science Systems' archive. Sun-
angle information and other factors contained in the MSSS
ancillary data would help establish what we are (or are not)
seeing in this provocative image.

-end-







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             CI: Processed Version of e_1701041.imq.jpg At MSSS

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:23:20 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:39:46 -0400
Subject: CI: Processed Version of e_1701041.imq.jpg At MSSS


Cydonian Imperative
5-19-03

Processed Version of e_1701041.imq.jpg at MSSS
by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

Related links:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov

www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18/images/E17/E1701041.html



I've learned that a processed version of e_1701041.imq.jpg
appears at Malin Space Science Systems' website (see "Related
links"). This "cleaner" and more accessible version was posted
in early April, without fanfare. Besides the Face, seen in its
entirety for the first time since 2001, the MSSS image shows the
controversial "Coathanger" feature in high resolution (the "fin-
like object" mentioned in the previous post).

It seems that while the particular file format of
e_1701041.imq.jpg is in fact unique to the USGS indexing system,
the image has indeed been made public, contrary to yesterday's
assessment. So while my "coverup" allegations suffer a blow, my
arguments pretaining to NASA's public accountability remain
valid. While the striking image on the MSSS site is available
for all to see, it was inserted into the MSSS online catalogue
with utmost quiet . . . so quiet that yesterday's encounter with
the raw file convinced me I that was dealing with an unreleased
image. (To my knowledge, the existence of this image was unknown
apart from a few anomalists, who have confessed puzzlement.)

As image processor Chris Joseph notes, e_1701041.imq.jpg allows
the creation of a true stereo pair when matched to 2001's E03-
00824: a first for Face researchers. Fortunately, the ancillary
data "missing" from the USGS site is readily available from
MSSS.

In summary, e_1701041.imq.jpg would seem to be 'never-before-
seen' in a merely technical sense. This is not without interest
to Mars anomaly research. But it does not reflect the sort of
covert study implicated in the the previous post. However, the
new Face image's silent debut in the MSSS catalogue is cause for
concern. Without forewarning, how is the public to know when new
images of controversial features are made available? And why
would MSSS go to the trouble to rephotograph the Face-- a
feature it has pronounced as perfectly natural and uninteresting
-- of its own choosing? Other images of the Face, including
1998's "catbox" and last year's flawed MOLA rendering, were
released along with predictable official "debunking." In fact,
it was all-too-easy to believe that urge to "debunk" came before
the need to objectively address strange morphologies on the
Cydonia plain.

The e_1701041.imq.jpg image is unique in that it was taken
without pressure from external parties (such as the Formal
Action Committee for Extra-Terrestrial Studies). Further, it was
released almost "invisibly." One might infer that NASA indeed
has an unspoken interest in the Face, and that e_1701041.imq.jpg
is evidence of a quiet campaign to learn more about the Cydonia
region without causing a stir among independent researchers. The
spectacle of MSSS reimaging Cydonia and releasing the results
sans the usual attempt to "scotch this thing for good" (arguably
NASA's raison d'etre in 1998) is almost surreal. Nevertheless,
this might be what we are seeing.

-end-







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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:25:52 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:40:22 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:11:36 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>You are right, it is a guessing game. Even with witness
 >>>testimony, it's a guessing game. There is no way we can know for
 >>>sure when someone is telling the absolute truth or not
 >>>misinterpreting their sighting therefore, with or without
 >>>photographic images, investigators and researchers must always
 >>>remain aware of just how little fact they actually have to work
 >>>with.

 >>So what is the point of your admitted guessing game? To try to
 >>argue that human knowledge is impossible? That's what you seem
 >>to be saying. We have a ton of data to work with by quite
 >>standard scientific methods, as I have extensively reported. I
 >>swore a while back to give up on trying to debate rationally
 >>with you, but let's see if you can stay on point and avoid
 >>persiflage. I'll try for a while to discuss issues with you.

 >Hi, Dick:

 >Sorry I took so long replying. My personal E-mail-box has been
 >swamped with E-mails expressing support for my endeavors and my
 >encounters on this List. Your reply was listed as "Hebert"
 >instead of "Hall" so I had difficulty finding it to reply.

 >I would like, very much, to experience a rational debate with
 >you, Dick. By all means, let us discuss a topic without calling
 >names, twisting each other's words, making accusations or
 >shifting the focus. Agreed?

Amy,

I think you are looking in a mirror, but anyway "calling names"
and "accusations" require some definition. If I firmly disagree
with you (or you with me), that is not necessarily an
accusation. And I certainly never, to my knowledge, enage in
name-calling as I define it.

 >>>>It is all well and good to catalogue and study IFOs as Amy is
 >>>>doing. All rational students of UFO phenomena have been doing
 >>>>that for many years, and that is why some people tend to object
 >>>>to Amy's seemingly didactic approach and semantical quibbling.

 >>>Dick, this is exciting! Could you please share all the URLs to
 >>>these IFO databases so that I may link to them in my own
 >>>Database? If all rational students of UFO phenomena have been
 >>>compiling IFO databases for many years, I can't wait to see
 >>>them! So far, I've only found a handful of others who have
 >>>shared their studies in this area, such as Mr. Tom King, Dr.
 >>>Maccabee, Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff and Mr. Gary Burton. But I've
 >>>never found a large collection of IFO studies collected and
 >>>presented on one web site (except mine).

 >>This comes across as one of those typically sarcastic-sounding
 >>utterances that you seem to excel at.

 >No accusations, please.

This is your definition of an "accusation"? I have seen
innumerable very similarly worded statements from you, always
demanding endless very specific citations and using such
expressions as how "excited" you are about it.

 >Perhaps my statements were a little tongue-in-cheek but I was
 >also dead serious. I am always on the look-out for research and
 >databases to link to and learn from.

 >>There are (fortunately
 >>and thankfully) lots of good media of record beyond the
 >>internet. Books and articles and columns have been written
 >>partly or almost entirely about IFOs. Both Jenny Randles and I
 >>have commented extensively on IFOs in journals and at symposia.

 >Dick, could you please tell me exactly where these articles and
 >columns written partly or almost entirely about IFO's may be
 >found, including references to each magazine, volume, number and
 >page numbers? In which journals or other forums may I find your
 >extensive comments concerning IFO's and those of Jenny Randles?
 >I would like to review these materials and add the information
 >to my IFO Database.

See what I mean? If I dropped everything and created a personal
catalogue for you, of course I could give you all sorts of
specific references. But I don't have the time to do your
research for you. (All right, that may sound a little sarcastic,
I admit.) What would you say if I asked you to provide me with
specific references to every magazine, volume, and page number
that you were alluding to in one of your statements?

 >>Is it not a false generalization on your part to suggest that
 >>all "ufologists" (a word that I hate) are equally naive about
 >>interpreting photos? I have expressed strong cautions about it
 >>in both volumes of The UFO Evidence.

 >At no time have I suggested or generalized any such thing.
 >Please try to avoid putting words in my mouth that I did not
 >say. Remember, we are trying to have a rational and hopefully
 >mature discussion.

Stop looking in the mirror. And stop your gratuitous lecturing
about rational and mature discussion, because I am very dubious
about how much expertise you have in that area. See, Amy; you
surely do rub people the wrong way with this sort of comment.
All anyone needs to do is to look back at your recent comments
about alleged UFO photos/videos on this List to see you strongly
implying that only you are critical-minded about these photos
and others are all too prone to accept them at face value. I
agree with half of that statement.

 >Please elaborate as to what you were trying to say about
 >interpreting photo's. I am not sure I understand what you are
 >trying to say here and I want to give an appropriate reply.

<snip>

The main thrust of all your comments about this have been to the
effect that people don't pay sufficient attention to IFOs (with
which I strongly agree), but then you seem to imply that you and
only you do pay attention, and it is the latter point with which
I strongly disagree and which I have been disputing with you.

I wrote a column for many years in the MUFON UFO Journal called
"Perspectives" in which I focused strongly on the need for
careful, and thorough investigation and chided people for being
careless about IFOs; to the point that I was more or less
pressured out of the organization for being too critical of some
of their more gullible, less scientificlaly oriented members.
There are at least two indexes of the MUFON UFO Journal that you
ought to be able to track down rather easily.

When the MUFON UFO Symposium was held in Washington, D.C. a few
years ago, jenny Randles gave a lecture totally about IFOs and
the importance of studying them. You ought to be able to find
the MUFON UFO Symposium Proceedings containing her article.

Also, for many years I wrote a column for the UFO Magazine
(available on the newsstands and by subscription, and accessible
on the ever-loving internet) in which, again, I was strongly
critical of careless investigations, New Age nonsense, etc., to
the point that I was  essentially "fired" as an undesirable from
that outfit too. So, I don't take kindly to lectures from people
who (a) don't have one-third of the hands-on experience that I
do, and (2) don't bother to find out the facts before lecturing
other people about their alleged failures to take a critical
apporach to UFO investigations, including compilation of data on
IFOs.

Now, what specific issues do you care to discuss or debate?

  - Dick







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   May > May 20

                          Secrecy News -- 05/20/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:47:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:03:11 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/20/03



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 43
May 20, 2003


**      NSA FOIA EXEMPTION AT ISSUE
**      INADVERTENT DISCLOSURE OF NUCLEAR SECRETS
**      DARPA: WE CAN BUILD YOU
**      REP. CONYERS ON JUDGE DAMON KEITH


NSA FOIA EXEMPTION AT ISSUE

As nearly two dozen civil liberties, media and public interest
organizations have challenged the need for a new Freedom of
Information Act exemption for so-called "operational files" of
the National Security Agency (NSA), the Senate Armed Services
Committee has arranged a briefing today to explore the matter.

"NSA needs the FOIA exemption in order to prevent the continued
diversion of resources from its SIGINT [signals intelligence]
mission," according to a two-page NSA justification for the measure.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/05/nsa051303.html

But "while the intent behind the proposed exemption -- to avoid
wasted effort searching highly classified files that would not be
released in any case -- is understandable, the language of the
provision is so broad that it could have significant unintended
consequences," I argued in a prepared statement for the Armed
Services Committee briefing.

   http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_hr/052003aftergood.html

Related resources from the National Security Archive are here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20030505/

For no good reason, the May 20 briefing, convened by Sen. Wayne
Allard (R-CO), is to be held at the Top Secret/Codeword level.
Uncleared staff and members of the public are not permitted to
attend, and uncleared presenters must leave the secure briefing room
following their presentation.


INADVERTENT DISCLOSURE OF NUCLEAR SECRETS

Upon examination of a million and a half pages of publicly accessible
documents at the National Archives, reviewers from the Department of
Energy found 336 pages containing nuclear weapons-related data that
is still classified, according to the latest DOE report to Congress
on inadvertent disclosures of classified information.

"The identified documents are in collections belonging to the
Department of State and the Department of Defense (Army, Navy, and
Joint Staff). The documents were inadvertently declassified and made
available to the public during the years from 1995 to 1998 by the
Department of State, the Department of Defense, and NARA," the
report stated.

The most frequent type of inadvertent disclosure concerned the
location of former nuclear weapons storage locations abroad,
information that has no proliferation sensitivity.  In some cases,
however, weapon design information was also discovered.

The Ninth Report on Inadvertent Releases of Restricted Data and
Formerly Restricted Data, dated November 2002, was published by
the Department of Energy in declassified form on May 19.  A copy
is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent9.html


DARPA: WE CAN BUILD YOU

With controversy over its Total Information Awareness program
still fresh, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
(DARPA) is embarking on a no less ambitious program to digitally
"capture both the user's physical experiences in the world and
his or her interactions with other entities in the world."

The DARPA LifeLog program was first reported today by Noah
Shachtman in his web log Defense Tech and his related story in
Wired News. See "DARPA Wants Your Life Indexable and
Searchable":

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000427.html

and "A Spy Machine of DARPA's Dreams":

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html

Further background from DARPA on the LifeLog concept is
available here:

http://www.darpa.mil/ipto/Solicitations/PIP_03-30.html


REP. CONYERS ON JUDGE DAMON KEITH

Judge Damon Keith of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals recently
came to broad public attention with his ringing denunciation of
secret deportation hearings: "Democracies die behind closed
doors."

But (I recently learned) Judge Keith is practically a household
name among students of national security law.  His landmark
ruling in the 1970s that limited government surveillance
authority is commonly known as "the Keith case."

Marking his 35th year on the federal bench, Rep. John Conyers
paid tribute to Judge Keith in a May 15 statement entered in the
Congressional Record and posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s051503.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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   May > May 20

                          Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:40:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:06:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert


 >From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:55:26 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >>called "Rods" phenomenon at:
 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 ><snip>

 >Fantastic work, Amy. This is an excellent example of so-called
 >"rods", and is open to relatively easy replication under the
 >right conditions.

Thank you, Dan. I'm hoping anyone interested will replicate this
experiment for their own information.

 >It will be interesting to see the response, if any, from such
 >characters as Jose Escamilla, et al. Mr. Escamilla seemed very
 >reluctant to correspond with me when I emailed him with some
 >'awkward' questions last year.

<LOL>Uh, yes, Mr. Escamilla's response was quite interesting.
<grin>And even though the cc addresses in his E-mail included
the UFO UpDates list, Mr. Escamilla's response would have to be
edited for inappropriate language to the point little would be
left to post, if you get my drift.

Mr. Escamilla made one statement that left me ROFL. He said,
"shooting at a low shutter reveals insects emulating Rods".
What? "insects emulating Rods"? So even if insects filmed at
lower shutter settings look remarkably similar to images of
"rods", according to Mr. Escamilla, it's because "rods" go
around disguised as bugs (with little bug butts, strap-on wings,
etc.?). But then, how do we know _bugs_ aren't going around
pretending to be "rods"? Hmmm?

I recently came across a web site with some amazing "rods"
images and interesting conclusions reached by the research team
at:

http://www.flyingrods.com/indexfl.asp

When you first enter the site, you are greeted by a pop-up that
says, "Flying Rods Mystery Solved! Flying Rods Community
Research Team... With assurance 95% of Flying Rods are nothing
more that (sic) insects filmed at shutter speeds which distort
the image, making it appear as something unrecognizable..."

It appears this research team first started out believing "rods"
images represented a genuine phenomenon but as their results
came in, they realized "rods" were nothing but insects afterall.

Especially interesting is an article written by Michael Merchant
in the "Articles" section of the Flyingrods web site titled
"Solved Rods or Eating Crow". He shares all kinds of
interesting information about Mr. Escamilla and others.

Some of the best images I've ever seen (even better than the
images I have to share) are in the "Images" section titled
"Filming Bees By Denny White" and "More Filming Bees by Denny
White" (the titles are not very creative but good work
nonetheless). Incredible effort and amazing "rods" - aka bees -
  images. Or are those just "rods" dressed up as bees? Or
perhaps bees imitating "rods"? Maybe they are cows pretending
to be bees, no, I mean "rods", no, I mean rods pretending to be
cows, no? Makes your head hurt just thinking about it! Haha.


Amy







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                 "... I was never abducted!" Armando Valdes

From: Eustaquio Anddraa Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:53:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:13:39 -0400
Subject: "... I was never abducted!" Armando Valdes


Source:

http://wintersteel.homestead.com/files/CraigArticles/The_Corporal_Breaks_His_Sil
ence.htm

The Corporal Breaks His Silence...
Armando Valdes: "Want to know the truth? I was never abducted!"
Thursday, April 25 2002

Carlos Vergara

"Truth is harder to explain than a lie," reflects Corporal
Valdes.

26 years after the alleged alien abduction in Putre, the UFO
poster boy denies it all.

It all happened 26 years ago at 4:15 a.m. on the morning of
April 25, 1977. The protagonists were Corporal Second Class
Armando Valdes Garrido and seven recruits performing their
military service at Pampa Lluscuma, near Putre, in Chile's First
Region.

Some speak of a light. Others of a spacecraft the size of the
National Stadium. The truth of the matter is that Valdes
vanished before the startled eyes of his seven recruits only to
reappear fifteen minutes later with a five-day growth of facial
hair and the calendar of his wristwatch indicating the date was
the 30th of April.

Recently retired, the legendary Corporal Valdes strolled through
Temuco with his trademark dark sunglasses, when a call placed to
his cell phone invited him to remember the truth of what
occurred in Putre. .

"Well, all of this is the completion of a book to be launched at
the end of the year. I can tell you that many myths will come
crashing while others will be created. I'ts the truth. In fact,
the book is entitled The Shadow of the Truth," he says without
any revulsion. .

- Were you abducted?

- In the context, I would say no.... In other words, had I been
abducted, I would have been sucked up and taken by a spacecraft
somewhere else. But I will make the truth known in my book."

- Excuse me, Corporal Valdes. Cut the book talk and tell me
something more solid.

- No, no, no. That's not what its about. I'm not trying to
promote myslef. All right, what do you want to know. Ask me and
I'll tell you."

- Where the hell were you those fifteen minutes?

- I can tell you that I was always present and looking at my
men. I even heard everything they said.

- So what'll it be then?  Were you abducted or not?

- I can't tell you yes or no. I have a truth, but it's a long
story, son. The whole phenomenon must have transpired here on
Earth. The truth is harder to explain than a lie. If I said that
I went to another galaxy, it would be easier. This is harder to
believe.

- I don't believe you...

- You see? I only want to be at peace with myself. You want the
truth? I was never abducted! But another phenomenon occurred.

- What phenomenon?

- Something very close to home, having to do with Earth. And it
happened to me with a purpose I have just come to realize. I
speak of future things in my book. They call it eschatology...

================================================================
Translation (C) 2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special thanks to Juan Guillermo Aguilera.










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   May > May 20

                                  Swamp Gas

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:55:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:15:25 -0400
Subject: Swamp Gas


Dear List Denizens and Rabble Rousers:

I come forward today to dispel a research error that has
permeated the field of Ufology. The Ufological record quotes Dr.
Josef Allen Hynek as saying the Hillsdale/Ann Arbor, MI cases
was nothing more than "swamp gas."

Today, I tell all of you, that quotation is in error. Hynek
never said the incident was caused by "swamp gas."

As a regular contributor to EBK's "Strange Days... Indeed!" radio
program, I will dispel this myth on my next regular gig,
sometime in June. Have your tape recorders ready.

The first recognized CE III case by NICAP, involving William
Squyres on August 25, 1952, is now preserved on digital audio
from an interview Frank Edwards did with him the next day. This
tidbit of audio is very important historically for all of us.
Little green men in UFOs began with this case.


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs Project







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                   De-mystifying Aliens Troubles Abductees

From: Eustquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:08:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:20:21 -0400
Subject: De-mystifying Aliens Troubles Abductees


Source: The Creative Spirit Network

http://www.creativespirit.net/learners/bookdigests/abductee.bok.htm


Books In Brief

Sunday, April 28, 2002 8:56:34 PM

"UFO abductions are real," claims Pulitzer Prize-winning Harvard
psychiatrist John E. Mack. After hearing dozens of stories
world-wide of extraterrestrial creatures taking men, women and
children against their wills on beams of light through walls and
windows into strange crafts, Dr. Mack proposes a startling
hypothesis: "The aliens are conducting an intergalactic breeding
program combined with a brotherly warning of impending doom if
the Earth doesn't change its warlike and ecologically wasteful
ways."

In Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens (Scribners), Dr. Mack
presents thirteen case studies which reflect his work with over
100 people of various ages and economic backgrounds, from three-
year-olds to major political figures. Most of these people have
no history of mental illness, alcoholism, or substance abuse
that might compromise their reports.

The peculiar nature of their experiences led him to a disturbing
realization that alien encounters occur in a different
realityone that is outside normal human consciousness. It is
this peculiar territory, the domain of the encounter, that makes
it so hard for the outside observer to accept the reality of the
abduction accounts. It is this same peculiarity which gives
these stories their mythlike power to change our world-view.

There is little or no physical evidence to explain the eerie
memories of traumatic episodes like kidnappings, medical
operations, loss of time, and sexual encounters. However, these
experiences of alien contact have as powerful an impact, or more
so, than the familiar physical world. The abductees are
ultimately left with deeply troubled feelings that profoundly
alter their perceptions of themselves, the world, and their
place in it.

Many abductees who failed to find relief in conventional
psychotherapy sought the novel treatment that Dr. Mack offers.
He helps them cope with their experiences through a synthesis of
"holotropic breathwork" (a form of yogic breathing that Dr.
Stanislaus Grof has developed into a substitute for psychedelic
therapy) and hypnosis, combined with applications of regression
techniques. These methods are commonly used with individuals
exposed to a wide variety of paranormal encounters, including
near-death experiences and other psychic, mystical, or spiritual
phenomena. Suspecting that the abduction phenomenon fits the
above category, Dr. Mack introduces a therapy style to stimulate
what he calls a "co-creative understanding between the therapist
and client." He enters into the psychic space of the abductee to
help the person understand and cope with the events that have
happened there.

The information gained in those sessions imply that abductions
take place in another dimension of reality that is inaccessible
by a purely cognitive process. If alien encounters with humans
occur in an altered state of consciousness, Dr. Mack reasons, it
is not likely that the experiencer's report of the incident(s)
will simply reflect a remembered item lifted from his or her
consciousness.

Dr. Mack proposes that the interplay of feelings and intuition
between the experiencer and the investigator yields a greater
understanding toward the alien connectionthat emotions are more
essential to create an "evolved perception" for evaluating the
experience. Through Dr. Mack's empathic support, some clients
find relief in discovering the ineffable power and beauty of an
expanded reality unexplained by human concepts of space and
time. Others are devastated when they must accept their memories
of these experiences as true occurrences.

Given the recent controversies over therapist-induced false
memories, Dr. Macks interactive procedure makes the bizarre UFO
abduction reports easy targets for scepticism, if not ridicule.
His critics charge that he abuses the techniques of hypnosis by
shaping the memories of his subjects to suit his vision of an
intergalactic future. His view that UFO phenomena reflect a
larger perception outside of "rational" scientific explanation
is suspected of tainting the expectations of his clients. On
occasion, Dr. Mack is accused of telling a client, "If you think
the aliens are bad, keep thinking about it until you realize
that they are good." Hypnosis expert and psychiatrist Richard
Ofshe of the University of California, Berkeley, admonishes: "If
you convince someone theyve been brutalized and raped, and you
encourage them to fully experience the emotions appropriate for
this eventand the event never happenedyouve led them through an
experience of pain that is utterly gratuitous."

Responding to Dr. Mack's debunkers, supporters point to a 1991
Roper poll that found that four million people have had at least
some abduction-related experiences. "Until John [Mack] came
along," says researcher Caroline McLeod, "there wasnt enough
credibility for this subject to support methodological
investigation." Dr. Macks clients admit that his methods do not
accurately disclose factual happenings outside of the physical
world, but the wealth of shared experiences of the similarity of
reported memories suggests that another world exists beyond the
physical that affects human lives.

"We have lost the faculties to know other realities," says Dr.
Mack. "The abduction phenomena violates the core belief in our
culture that there is a total separation between the spirit and
physical world." The extraterrestrials seemingly exist in both
worlds, in dimensions that humans are incapable of perceiving
without their help. The mystery remains why many abduction
experiencers are left with anxieties, nightmares, bodily
lesions, sinus headaches, and other stress disorders unaccounted
for other than by the alien encounter stories as revealed
through hypnosis.

In one case history, hypnosis uncovered repressed core memories
of an abduction-related trauma which allowed a woman to
reestablish an intimate relationship in a failing marriage. The
session revealed that she was formerly subjected to intrusive
reproductive procedures on an alien craft. The rape-like
incident, buried deeply in her psyche, had obstructed physical
contact with her husband until Dr. Mack aided in making the
distinction between the physical aspects of human intimacy and
sexuality from the alien trauma. Dr. Mack also cites caseload
evidence that these encounters have been responsible for healing
physical conditions ranging from cures in leukemia to recovery
from paralysis. Other clients recalled past lives and observed a
continuity of personal growth over more than one lifetime with
the assistance of alien beings throughout these lives!

Abduction experiences appear cruel at times, says Dr. Mack, but
are ultimately spiritually transformative. Most of the
individuals who suffered from abductions were terrified because
they felt helpless throughout the invasive procedures inflicted
upon their bodies. The strain of the nightmarish episodes also
isolated remaining family and friends. One abductee shares his
fear that the experiences may recur at any time to his friends
or his children: "Were not relieved of our continuing
unrelenting other-world melodrama."

Yet, against seemingly overwhelming odds, many abductees come to
feel that these crises translate into a life-changing process
that has deep importance and value. Based on his clients
testimonies, Dr. Mack envisions UFO abductees as an alternative
model for evolutionary consciousness development. He believes
that these powerful and disturbing abductions break conceptual
barriers of human conceits, psychological defenses, or
established points of view to enable one to transcend a limited
perception of life. Like pioneers on a heros journey, abductees
undergo their own ego-destroying terror and expand their
consciousness to unknown dimensions of the cosmos and human
psyche. "With the opening of consciousness to new domains of
being," writes Dr. Mack, "abductees encounter patterns and a
design of life that brings them a profound sense of
interconnectedness in the future." This reward may compensate
them for their suffering as involuntary prophets of this
millenniums new revelation.

(Digest by Clayton O. Montez, Atlantic University.)









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   May > May 20

                    Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:36:26 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:27:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Tonnies


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >The following is an Editorial I wrote for the Destination
Space Website. I think it is germane here.


Great work, Don.

It's not only germane, but very much welcome.  I'm fascinated by
this subculture of pseudoskeptics and their tried-and-true
"methodology."

For my own 2 cents on the subject, read my essays:

http://www.mactonnies.com/skeptic.html

http://www.mactonnies.com/imperative38.html (illustrated)

=====
 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   May > May 20

                       Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:55:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:38:49 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Velez


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:47:34 -0700
 >Subject: STS-48 & Larry King

 >On June 26, 1996 I appeared on Larry King Live on CNN with Jim
 >Oberg and the topic was STS-48. It was lively as you can see
 >from the transcript below.

 >----------------------------------------------------------------

 >Source: Larry King Live
 >06/26/92

 >Larry King: Welcome back to Larry King Live.

<snip>

Hello Don,

Herr Oberg has chosen to grace all of us on UFO UpDates with his
all-knowing presence. (And me with his incessant insults and
condescension.) One of the many things he uses this forum for is
to spread the 'party-line' on the STS-48 footage.

I'm still waiting for him to respond to another List member who
has discovered a discrepancy in the time-code of the STS-48
footage. May-haps 'somebody' tampered with the footage? Gee, I
wonder why?

This was a timely and relevant post from you. And as always,
right on the money.

Good to see a post from you on the List. Been awhile between
drinks.

Best to you and Vicki,


John Velez







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              Re: CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:40:56 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA?


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: CI: New Image of the 'Face' Withheld by NASA?

 >Cydonian Imperative
 >5-18-03

 >Exclusive: New Image of the "Face" Withheld by NASA?
 >by Mac Tonnies

<snip>

 >For the first time since beginning this website, I have received
 >what appears to be conclusive evidence of a NASA effort to
 >photograph the Cydonia region without the public's knowledge.
 >The image below ("E1701041C") does not appear on any publicized
 >NASA site.

Allow me to clear this up. Soon after posting this, a processed
version was unearthed on a publicly available site, as described
in my follow-up report. I wanted to kick myself. Then again,
Malin Space Science Systems inserted the new image (actually
_two_ new images) so quietly that, after viewing the unprocessed
version in the USGS index, I hesitate to blame myself for
thinking it was being withheld. So much for a Pulitzer Prize.

That said, it's still an interesting relevation: two new
pictures of the Face on Mars, released with zero fanfare.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Cydonian Imperative: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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   May > May 20

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 20

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:15:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:52:42 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 20


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

       UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 20
May 21, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan@aol.com
Web: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CROP CIRCLES APPEAR ON
A FARM IN QUEENSLAND

       Thirty crop circles appeared on a sorghum farm in
Australia's state of Queensland last week.  And the farm's
human residents may have heard the circles' actual
creation.
       "The overnight appearance of dozens of bizarre crop
circles in a field of sorghum has spooked a Sunshine Coast
hinterland farmer and his workers."
       "The phenomenon, which was accompanied by loud
'zapping noises,' a flash of green light, lost power and
barking dogs has the Gowen family of Glass House Mountains
flumoxed."
       "Fifth-generation landowner Kel Gowen said he was
woken about midnight Wednesday (May 14, 2003) by two loud
'zaps.'"
       "His farm hand, Noel Brady, whose cottage overlooks
the four hectares (acres) of sorghum, said he was also
woken by the first zapping sound, which was followed by
the loss of (electrical) power and bright green flashes."
       "Mr. Gowen said it was only during a routine check of
his property early yesterday morning (Thursday, May 15,
2003) that he noticed the thirty flattened circles in the
sorghum."
       "Mr. Gowen said his family had never taken notice of
stories of crop circles or UFOs."  (See the Australian
newspaper The Courier-Mail of Queensland for May 16, 2003,
"Crop circles puzzle farmer."  Many thanks to Darren
Clarke and Robert Fischer for forwarding this newspaper
story.)


ROUNDUP READERS SAY
ANTARCTIC RUINS STORY
IS JUST "FICTION"

       The news release from the Atlantis Mapping Project is
"just fiction," according to dozens of UFO Roundup readers
who wrote in after last week's issue appeared.
       The AMP news release alleged that prehistoric ruins
had been found two miles (3,200 meters) under the ice cap
in Antarctica and that one of their film crews had been
missing since November 2002.
       Leny G. reported, "The story is a hoax or just a
setup for an opening movie.  If you look at the links a
bit more carefully on the website, you would see posters
of movie stars like Nicole Kidman and Clint Eastwood."
       Dru Sefton, who works for Newhouse News Service in
Washington, D.C. sent a copy of the website's mission
statement, which says, "As the world's exclusive link to
the secret U.S. dig in Antarctica, and 'Earth's coolest
entertainment,' @lantisTV is one of the most exotic
combinations of fantasy and reality in entertainment
today.  Every week tens of thousands of Internet
subscribers anxiously await news updates on a fictional
archaeological dig in Antarctica.  World-class
archaeologists are even submitting their resumes to
@lantisTV in hopes of joining the expedition."
       Gerry Lovell called the news release "an old hoax
item that is now circulating on the WWW (World Wide Web)
once more."
       On Thursday, May 8, 2003, Gerry wrote, "Why hasn't
someone done their homework and figured out that @lantisTV
and its 'Atlantis Mapping Project' is simply nothing more
than entertainment?"
       "In 2001, the outfit published an e-book entitled
Washingtonople: The Secret History of America's Capital
stating that such American monuments as the U.S. Capitol
building, Lincoln Memorial and the proposed World War II
Veterans Memorial, while erected during different
centuries, are built according to its chief architect,
Frenchman and Freemason, Pierre-Charles L'Enfant's
mysterious master plan.  Furthermore, it concludes that
the terrestrial landmarks of the National Mall" in
Washington, D.C. "will 'lock' with their celestial
counterparts at a date predetermined by the (USA's)
Founding Fathers.  The e-book's archaeology is credited to
a Dr. Conrad Yeats, a fictional archaeologist from a novel
and a recurring guest on @lantisTV's 'Atlantis Mapping
Project' website."
       "Washingtonople was the original name of America's
capital city, bestowed on it in 1790 by L'Enfant."
(Editor's Comment: So it appears there are elements of
truth in @lantisTV's fiction.
L'Enfant did have a master plan for Washington, D.C.  In
fact, he was fired by Congress after he tore down an
existing mansion house owned by a wealthy Maryland
planter.  The house stood right in the middle of one of
L'Enfant's projected avenues.  The full extent of Masonic
influence on the capital's design has yet to be revealed.
But it's possible that many D.C. landmarks were designed
to represent the position of stars and planets in the
heavens.  "As above, so below" is a Masonic motto.)
       Michael Christman also researched the websites and
came up with "this statement, 'All depictions of news
events are fictional and intended for entertainment only,
despite claims to the contrary by subscribers, government
agencies, archaeologists and other interested parties."
       UFO Roundup editor Joseph Trainor has a theory about
what happened.  "For us, the story actually originated in
France," he said, "A French UFO buff was cruising the Net
and came across the AMP site.  He must have thought the
news release was genuine and emailed it--without the
'entertainment' disclaimer--to our correspondent Bob
Fischer.  In turn, Bob emailed it to me as part of his
weekly digest of European paranormal news.  I was struck
by the eerie similarities to H.P. Lovecraft's 1931 novel,
At the Mountains of Madness, and wrote it up as the 'ruins
of Kadath found?' story."
       "No wonder there were similarities," Trainor added,
"AMP must have gotten the prehistoric ruins idea from
Lovecraft."
       UFO Roundup readers can check out the websites
themselves at:
       http://lantis.tv/amp/bios/serena_bio.html
       http://lantis.tv/amp/home.html
       http://lantis.tv/tv/press.html
       http://lantis.tv/amp/releases/charges.html  (Many
thanks to Dru Sefton, Gerry Lovell, Michael Christmas,
John Hayes and others for the followup information.)


GREEN GNOME STARTLES
PEOPLE IN ECUADOR

       "Police in a town in Ecuador are investigating
reports of a little green man seen walking down the
street."
       "A number of Quininde residents called police after
seeing what they described as a 'gnome' in" the town's
Plaza Mayor.
       "Marco Preciado told (the newspaper) Diario Extra:
'It was less than one meter (3 feet, 3 inches) tall, and I
saw it three times.  I tried to follow him, but he
disappeared."
       "Cecilia Cedeno, who owns a liquor shop, said, 'He
appeared in front of the shop to a group of people.  He
gave a loud laugh and ran away.'"
       A spokesman for Ecuador's Policia Nacional said,
"People are scared and fascinated by the story.  We are
investigating, and we believe it is someone trying to make
fun of the whole town" of Quininde.  (See the Peruvian
newspaper El Comercio for May 14, 2003, "Police are
investigating gnome reports in Ecuador."  Muchas gracias a
Scott Corrales para eso informe.)


ORANGE UFO SIGHTED IN
AUSTRALIAN MOUNTAINS

       On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 9:45 p.m., Veronica A.
took her pet dog outside at her home in Blaxland, a small
town in the Blue Mountains of New South Wales, Australia,
and saw a strange light approaching.
       "I took my dog outside at about 9:45 p.m.," Veronica
reported, "I immediately noticed a strange burnt
orange/copper roundish object in the sky in the far
distance.  It looked like a star only a fair bit larger."
       "I called to my brother, who came to the upstairs
window.  I asked him what it could be, and he said he
didn't know.  He called his wife, and she came downstairs
with me, and he stayed upstairs.  (I wish I had grabbed
the videocamera--V.A.)  At first I thought it was
stationary, but then it started to move slowly towards the
ground."
       "I estimate that it was lower than the height
(altitude in the USA--J.T.) of a plane and about 10 to 20
kilometers (6 to 12 miles) from where I was standing.  It
was over the bush. (forest or woods in the USA--J.T.)"
       "After two to three minutes, I could no longer see it
because of my neighbour's roof.  I considered moving
towards the bush, which is only a street away, to see
where it went, but the sceptic in me made me not bother."
       "We all discussed it later, and even my brother
agreed it couldn't have been a satellite/comet because it
lingered in one spot for too long.  There was no trail.
Just the roundish light.  If you put four or five stars
together, that would be the size." (Email Form Report)


GOLDEN UFO SPOTTED BY
WITNESSES OVER IOWA

       On Friday, May 9, 2003, around 10 p.m., Stephanie
Hubricht was drivng "between Algona (population 5,741) and
Humboldt (population 4,452) in Iowa.  Clear skies not a
lot of stars.  The UFO approached from the southwest."
       "We were just coming out of Britt, Iowa (population
2,052)" on Highway 18 "heading west, when I saw a bright
goldish-orangeish light in the southwest," Stephanie
reported, "About two minutes later, I saw it again.  A
couple minutes after this, I saw two lights.  Then, a
couple more times, I just saw the one light.  But it
always seemed to be in the same direction as we were
driving.  I would look directly to the southwest each time
I saw it."
       "I have never seen a light like this, and I am
curious about it.  I always thought that if I ever saw a
UFO, I would be scared, but I wasn't.  I want to know if
anyone else saw something like this the same night, same
time.  Big round orange light. It would appear, then
disappear."  (Email Form Report)


READER FEEDBACK:

IT'S OKAY TO SHOOT WOLVERINE

       Concerning your editor's commentary on the movie X-2:
The X-Men United (see UFO Roundup, volume 8, Number 18,
page 10), reader Glenn O. Boyde writes, "To give you an
explanation of why the officer fired at Wolverine in X-2,
I work in law enforcement, and if a suspect refuses to
disarm, especially someone with a knife, if you shoot the
suspect, it is a justifiable use of force."
       "Wolverine could not drop his weapons (his claws) and
actually raised his hands, so the officer shot him."
       "The problem that I have with the movie is that,
unlike Daredevil and Spider-Man, X-2 did not follow any
true comic story.  In the comic, Wolverine could have
sheathed his claws and would not have been shot.  He was
not a product of the U.S. government but a super-agent of
the Canadian government who defected or went AWOL."
       "The whole Stryker thing was stupid and over-
exaggerated.  Thanks for the time."
(Editor's Comment:  Glenn, can you imagine the political
fallout if Stryker's military attack on Prof. Xavier's
school had happened in real life?  A late night at the
Pentagon.  Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is hard at
work at his desk.  The telephone rings, and he picks up
the receiver.  "Hello?"
       "Donald..."  Instantly he recognizes the voice of
Condoleeza Rice.  "I've got Hillary on the other line.
Would you mind explaining what that idiot Stryker is doing
to Westchester County, New York!?")


  From the UFO Files...

250: WONDERS WORKED
           IN ITALY

       History teaches that the Roman Empire ceased to be a
world power when the Vandals sacked the city in 410 A.D.
But, in actuality, the Evil Empire was pretty much on the
ropes 160 years earlier, in 250 A.D., losing wars with
"barbarians" (ancestors of the French and Germans--J.T.)
one after the other.
       This period of the late Empire could properly be
called "The Emperor of the Month Club," as the Praetorian
Guard and the "first families" of Rome put one strongman
after another on the Imperial throne, hoping to salvage
their sinking ship of state.
       Which is pretty much how the Roman general Decius
came to power around 250 A.D.  Admired by his
contemporaries as a reasonably honest and forthright man,
the new bald-headed emperor did crack down on those he
perceived to be the Empire's enemies, most notably the
Christians, who had become a sizable religious sect
throughout the Empire.
       Decius also figured out a way to make money from
persecution.  Christians willing to abjure their faith
could go to a judge or a notary public, pay a fee and
obtain a written certificate of loyalty to the Empire and
the Olympian gods.  Thousands did choose this "escape
hatch," and there was a thriving black market in these
Imperial documents, as well.
       But those who stuck with Jesus Christ were rounded up
by Decius' secret police and locked up in dungeons to face
the rack, the "iron chair" and other implements of Roman
torture.
       Such a one was Venantius, a boy apprenticed to a
leather worker in Camerino, Italy.  Born in Camerino in
235 A.D., Venantius was orphaned at the age of ten and
lived with relatiives until he became an apprentice a
couple of years later.  He was arrested two weeks after
Decius' decree against Christianity was posted.
       Brought before the local Roman magistrate, Venantius
called Jesus Christ "my personal savior," and "it was
found impossible to shake his constancy with threats or
promises, he was condemned to be scourged."
       Returned to the prison, located in the lowermost
floor of the arx (Roman citadel--J.T.), 15-year-old
Venantius had his manacled hands chained to the whipping
post.  Then the jailer ripped away his tunic, baring the
boy's back, and reached for the cat o' nine tails.
       The first stroke laid open the skin.  Venantius
clenched his teeth against the pain.  Squeezing his eyes
shut, he uttered a silent prayer that God would grant him
the strength to endure the torture.
       Again and again the iron-studded leather straps found
their mark.  The jailer let out a jolly chuckle.  "I'll
bet that stings a bit more than your master's switch."
       As the jailer raised his arm once more, he felt cold
steely fingers close around his wrist.  A baritone voice
said, "That will do."
       Turning, the jailer saw a strange man standing there.
The intruder was clad like a warrior in silver and gold
armor of a curious design, neither Greco-Roman nor Celtic
nor Gothic.  A sheathed sword dangled from his hip.  But
he wore no casque or crested helmet, revealing a shock of
curly, brownish-blond hair.
       The jailer's gaze zipped past the intruder to the
iron-grille door.  It was locked.  He tried to pull free
of the stranger's grasp but could not.
       "How did you get in here!?" the jailer bellowed.
       The intruder squeezed harder.  A stabbing cold
enveloped the jailer's hand.  The skin turned pink, then
red, then white.  The whip fell from his nerveless
fingers.  The jailer fell to his knees, shrieking, as
delicate wrist bones began to shatter.
       Glancing over his shoulder, Venantius watched in
wide-eyed amazement.  His prayers had been answered.  It
was an angel of God, just like in the Bible.
       "Find another line of work, my friend," the angel
advised.
       And then he vanished.
       The jailer's bellows quickly brought Roman soldiers
to the dungeon.  They listened to him babble about the
strange visitor--a warrior--maybe one of the heroes of the
Trojan War--Hector, Achilles, somebody!  And, it not for
his broken wrist, they would have thought the jailer quite
mad.
       But the jailer's weird story spread like wildfire
through Camerino.  Once again, Venantius was brought
before the magistrate.
       "So you're a sorcerer as well as a Galilean-
worshipper," the judge said. "Tell me the secrets of your
witchery.  How did you conjure up Achilles?"
       "I am no sorcerer," Venantius replied, "I serve Jesus
Christ, the one you call 'the Galilean.'  He sent an angel
to succor me.  Jesus is my lord...and yours, too."
       "Don't waste my time with your impiety."  The judge
struck the bench with his baton.  "The penalty for sorcery
is death.  Take him out and execute him, lest he cast a
spell on our city."
       With the magistrate's secretary supervising, the
Roman soldiers built a pyre of birch wood in Camerino's
main plaza.  After all, everybody knew that witches were
helpless against birch wood.  As an additional precaution,
they fastened chains around Venantius' ankles, tossed the
rope over a stout limb, and then dangled him upside-down
over the fire "that he might be suffocated by smoke."
Also, while choking on the acrid smoke, Venantius would be
unable to cast a spell.
       Wheezing and coughing, his eyes streaming from the
stinging smoke, Venantius twisted slowly at the end of the
rope.  As the blood rushed to his head, he silently voiced
another prayer.  Thy will, O Lord, not mine!
       Then, to the amazement of the magistrate's secretary,
the mysterious armored figure appeared beside Venantius.
He kicked apart the flaming pile of wood, trampled out a
few of the burning brands, and then swept his hand over
the rest, instantly extinguishing the blaze.  He drew his
sword.  Its blade was an eerie radiance, not exactly light
and not exactly fire, and cut through the boy's iron ankle
chains as if they were cobwebs.  Still coughing, Venantius
hit the dirt with a thud.
       The angel then vanished.
       Flanked by Roman soldiers, the magistrate's secretary
came running across the plaza.  He stooped and picked up a
blackened piece of wood.  He gasped.  The brand was
covered with a thin sheen of ice.
       The secretary was converted on the spot, "proclaimed
his faith in Christ, was baptized with his whole family,
and shortly after won the martyr's crown himself."
       "Venantius was then carried before the (provincial)
governor, who, unable to make him renounce his faith, cast
him into prison" in April 250 "with an apostate who vainly
strove to tempt him."  When this attempt failed, Venantius
was brought before the governor again.
       "I've read something of these Hebrew scrolls," the
governor said, "Tell me, boy, are you familiar with the
tale of Shadrach, Mesach and Abednego?"
        Venantius nodded.  "I am."
        The governor chuckled.  "You'll find our ovens more
sturdy than those of Persia (now Iran--J.T.).  This time
the fable will have a different ending."  To the guards,
he said, "Have his jaws broken and then burn him."
       This time, no angel intervened when the jailer took a
hammer and struck Venantius on both sides of the face,
shattering his teeth and jaws.  Bleeding from the mouth,
Venantius was chained hand and foot, carried to a large
copper wine vat and tossed inside.  Nearly overcome with
pain, he could hear the Roman soldiers stacking firewood
around the outside of the vat.
       Again Venantius prayed.  And just as the copper floor
began to blister his flesh, a circle of light appeared on
the vat's wall.  Through it stepped the curly-haired
angel, this time with a white cloak hitched to his armor.
At a touch, the manacles fell from the boy's hands and
feet.  The entity spread the white clock protectively
around Venantius, instantly cooling him off.
       "Take my hand and come with me," the angel said.
       Nodding, Venantius gripped the proffered hand.
Together they stepped right through the copper wall of the
wine vat.
       As the pair emerged from the vat, the assembled crowd
emitted cries of amazement and horror.  The centurion in
charge of the execution clutched his cuirass and "fell
headlong from his seat and expired," apparently of a heart
attack.
       Addressing the crowd, the angel said, "Tell your
governor that the tale has the same ending.  For the Lord
is the same--yesterday, today and forever."
       Some in the crowd began shouting, "This god of
Venantius' is the true God.  Let us destroy our idols."
       "This circumstance being told to the governor, he
ordered Venantius to be thrown to the lions; but these
brutes, forgetting their natural ferocity, crouched at the
feet of the Saint," who stroked and affectionately ruffled
their fur.  It was as if Venantius had bathed in catnip.
       Each strange incident added to the reputation of
Camerino's "unkillable sorcerer."  People flocked to the
dungeon to see "the wonder-worker."  Venantius took the
opportunity to preach to them.  Even in the teeth of
Decius's persecution, he was winning dozens of converts to
Christianity.
       "Then, by order of the tyrant (Decius), the young
martyr was dragged through brambles and thorns, but again
God manifested the glory of his servant."  There was no
more need for the angel.  Resigned to his ultimate fate,
Venantius was now able to perform miracles on his own.
       May 10 was a hot day and "the soldiers suffering from
thirst" complained loudly about their duty.  Cut and
slashed by the brambles, still smarting from his other
injuries, Venantius took pity on them.
       "You know, Moses in the desert struck a rock, and
water came forth," he said.
       "That is absolute crap," a grizzled legionnaire
replied, "I served in Egypt!  No man could live in the
Sinai.  No one!  Those fables about Moses are all lies!"
       With a grim smile, Venantius knelt on a flat rock.
"Behold the power of the Lord."
       His forefinger made the sign of the cross, and
"immediately a jet of clear, cool water spurted up from
the spot."  The soldiers rushed forward to slake their
thirst.  "This miracle converted many of those who beheld
it."
       Yet it also alarmed the governor, who feared that
Decius would blame him for the wholesale conversion of so
many legionnaires to a proscribed sect.  The threat of
Venantius had to be ended, he felt, once and for all.
       It took about a week for the Empire's informers to
come up with a list of the recent converts.  At dawn on
May 18, 250 A.D., the governor struck.  The soldiers who
had converted were disarmed and rousted out of their
barracks.  Loyal troops went from house to house to
collect the civilians.  They were all confined to one
corner of the plaza, surrounded by javelin-toting
legionnaires.
       Brought from the arx in chains, Venantius was the
last to join them.
       "Venantius and his converts were beheaded together."
It was the first mass execution in Italy since the civil
wars of the First Century B.C.
       Today a Baroque church stands above the massacre
site--the Church of San Venanto--and the bodies of the
martyrs are interred in its catacombs.
       As for the mysterious angel...he appeared a
generation later, in 271 A.D., to a young woman of Rome
named Restituta.  (See UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 22
for May 28, 2002, "271: Restituta's guardian angel," page
6.)
       Such were the strange incidents and manifestations
that marked the last days of the Roman Empire.  (See the
book Lives of the Saints, Benziger Brothers, Milwaukee,
Wis. 1887, pages 230 and 231.)

       That's it for this week.  Join us next time for more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet
Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO
Roundup."  See you in seven days.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their websites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   May > May 20

                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Dabrowski

From: Andrew Dabrowski <dabrowsa@indiana.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:37:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:59:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Dabrowski


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:46:50 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >To say that enough evidence already exists and that the real
 >problem is that the media won't take people in Ufology seriously
 >is nonsense. If there was a news story here, they would be
 >covering it - not for Ufology but for themselves. There simply
 >isn't enough meat (yet) to get them really interested. Or maybe
 >it's the government controlling all the major newswires and
 >publishers. I don't know. I'm sure someone here does.


I think the media may be wary of UFOs because they're worried
about their credibility. In the mind of the general public UFOs
are tabloid stories, and fearing that association the major
media are likely not to touch the subject.

But I agree with your main point, that not enough evidence
exists (to decide the question either way). The details of any
particular case can be argued endlessly. Look at the JFK
assassination: in the middle of the day in a major city, 180
witnesses, still photos and movies, but after 40 years of
investigation there's still no consensus on what happened. And
no UFO sighting is remotely as well attested.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Dabrowski    |     Lueckenlos ist die Welt, doch
SE 117   5-5470   | zusammengehalten ... von den
Verschwundenen.
dabrowsa@indiana.edu  | Sie sind ueberall.
-Enzensberger






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                   In Support Of Larry W. Bryant's Appeal

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:53:42 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:09:50 -0400
Subject: In Support Of Larry W. Bryant's Appeal


From:    Peter Robbins <probbins@teamcpm.com>
Date:    Tue, May 20, 2003 10:11 am
To:      osfoia@nbc.gov
Cc:      Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: Support of Larry W. Bryant's Appeal of His DOI-
          rejected FOIA-Fee-Waiver Request



TO: Mr. William W. Wolf >FOIA Appeals Officer
(<mailto:osfoia@nbc.gov)>osfoia@nbc.gov)
U. S. Department of the Interior Washington, DC 20240

FROM: Peter Robbins Editor-in-Chief,
http://www.ufocity.com
New York City

DATE: May 19, 2003

Dear Mr. Wolf:

UFOcity.com columnist Larry W. Bryant ("LWB Chronicles")
deserves your affirmation of his appeal No. 2003-151, which he
addressed to you on April 20, 2003. > >As Editor-In-Chief of the
above website's worldwide UFO-related >news-and-information
service, I have come to admire and rely upon Mr. Bryant's
regular contributions to this site's contents during the past
several years. What's more, that tangible value he continues to
offer our site often is complemented by his consultative advice,
news/research tips, and story leads born of his own years spent
in the trenches of newsletter editorship (including that of the
newsletter "Just Cause," published by Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy).

Mr. Bryant's volume of investigative and analytical news-writing
and commentary is expected to grow at a steady pace - especially
as he succeeds in gaining additional, unfettered FOIA access
(including appropriate fee waivers) to the federal government's
vast storehouse of yet-to-be disclosed UFOana. Your denying him
that access -- however indirecty or covertly -- will hamper both
the public service he's providing and the public's right-to-
know.

I therefore urge you to grant his appeal as soon as possible, to
protect his thus-validated requester status in the future, and
to apply the same criteria of that validation to all other
persons occupying his category of FOIA requesters.

Your granting this appeal will, of course, obviate my having to
ask Mr. Bryant to include this statement as witness evidence for
any forthcoming litigation in this matter.


Yours sincerely,

Peter Robbins

P.S.: Because of the interrelation between Mr. Bryant's DOI-
records-access FOIA Appeal No. 2003-144 and his DOI-fee-waiver-
request-rejection FOIA Appeal No. 2003-151, I expect you to
fully grant BOTH appeals as soon as possible so as to end the
illegal impasse your agency's action/inaction has imposed upon
Mr. Bryant's (and, indirectly, my website's) FOIA right-of-
access, right of equal-protection-of-the-laws, and right of
freedom-of-the-press -- not to mention the harm that this
impasse is causing to the public's right-to-know and to its
right to take part in overseeing government operations.









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   May > May 20

                       Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:33:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Hall


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:55:49 -0400
 >Subject: STS-48 & Larry King

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:47:34 -0700
 >>Subject: STS-48 & Larry King

 >>On June 26, 1996 I appeared on Larry King Live on CNN with Jim
 >>Oberg and the topic was STS-48. It was lively as you can see
 >>from the transcript below.

 >>>Source: Larry King Live
 >>06/26/92

 >>Larry King: Welcome back to Larry King Live.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Don,

 >Herr Oberg has chosen to grace all of us on UFO UpDates with his
 >all-knowing presence. (And me with his incessant insults and
 >condescension.) One of the many things he uses this forum for is
 >to spread the 'party-line' on the STS-48 footage.

 >I'm still waiting for him to respond to another List member who
 >has discovered a discrepancy in the time-code of the STS-48
 >footage. May-haps 'somebody' tampered with the footage? Gee, I
 >wonder why?

 >This was a timely and relevant post from you. And as always,
 >right on the money.

 >Good to see a post from you on the List. Been awhile between
 >drinks.

 >Best to you and Vicki,

 >John Velez

I second John's comments here, and only wish to ask Don two
questions: (1) How did NICAP in 1992 (date from memory but it
was 1990s) sponsor anything since no NICAP existed at that
time?; and (2) have you read my review of Richard Dolan's book
in IUR (Vol. 26, No. 1, Spring 2001)?


  - Dick







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                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:31:59 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:26:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman


 >From: Andrew Dabrowski <dabrowsa@indiana.edu>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:37:19 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >>To say that enough evidence already exists and that the real
 >>problem is that the media won't take people in Ufology seriously
 >>is nonsense. If there was a news story here, they would be
 >>covering it - not for Ufology but for themselves. There simply
 >>isn't enough meat (yet) to get them really interested. Or maybe
 >>it's the government controlling all the major newswires and
 >>publishers. I don't know. I'm sure someone here does.

 >I think the media may be wary of UFOs because they're worried
 >about their credibility. In the mind of the general public UFOs
 >are tabloid stories, and fearing that association the major
 >media are likely not to touch the subject.

 >But I agree with your main point, that not enough evidence
 >exists (to decide the question either way). The details of any
 >particular case can be argued endlessly. Look at the JFK
 >assassination: in the middle of the day in a major city, 180
 >witnesses, still photos and movies, but after 40 years of
 >investigation there's still no consensus on what happened. And
 >no UFO sighting is remotely as well attested.


I don't understand where you guys are coming from. Check the
opinion polls, check the surveys, Most people do Believe that
Earth is being visited. Unfortunately because of repeated claims
to the contrary, they think that most other people don't. Of
course, the case is only very strong when one looks at the
evidence.

There is plenty of evidence. Will people accept it? I have had
only 11 hecklers at more than 700 total lectures all over. 2
were drunk. I have had crowds as big as 2000 and have an open Q
and A session. Why be apologist ufologists?

Research by proclamation won't do. Prepondernce of the evidence
is fine in civil suits isn't it? The basis for deciding truth
has be determined by the specific situation. If I claim I can
lift three hundred pounds, you have a right to say here is a 300
pound weight, show me. If I claim that sometimes the earth comes
between the sun and the moon and the moon goes out, it is
inappropriate to demand that I do it tomorrow at 11PM. No I
can't produce an alien body. In a hit and run accident, the
victim is dead regardless of whether or not we know who drove
the car or what kind of car it was Eyewitness testimony
concerning clearly manufactured objects behaving in ways we
can't duplicate (especially 50 years ago) means we are dealing
with ET spacecraft. We need not know the point of origin, the
mode of propulsion, the motivation of the pilots.


Stan Friedman

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html










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   May > May 20

                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:28:31 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

I have snipped to this question because it's the only thing that
has the potential of a productive outcome.

 >Now, what specific issues do you care to discuss or debate?

One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
lights?


A. Hebert








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                           Re: Swamp Gas - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:33:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:33:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Swamp Gas - Denzler


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:55:51 -0600
 >Subject: Swamp Gas

 >Dear List Denizens and Rabble Rousers:

 >I come forward today to dispel a research error that has
 >permeated the field of Ufology. The Ufological record quotes
 >Dr. Josef Allen Hynek as saying the Hillsdale/Ann Arbor, MI
 >cases was nothing more than "swamp gas."

 >Today, I tell all of you, that quotation is in error. Hynek
 >never said the incident was caused by "swamp gas."

 >As a regular contributor to EBK's "Strange Days... Indeed!"
 >radio program, I will dispel this myth on my next regular
 >gig, sometime in June. Have your tape recorders ready.

OK. I feel like I've just been confronted with a crossword
puzzle in the newspaper and _have_ to try to solve it. Here's
what I think you're referring to:

Hynek did not say that the Michigan sightings _were_ nothing but
swamp gas. He said that at the time of the press conference he
didn't know what the sightings were, but that they could be
almost anything. _For_instance_, because they were sighted near
a swamp, pockets of gas rising from decaying vegetable matter
might produce a brief ball of light that could be taken for a
UFO.

The media, however, jumped on his "for instance" as if he had
laid down the final word about the events. Not so.


Am I right?

Brenda Denzler







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                       UFO Over Baku Azerbaijan Again

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:00:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:02:12 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Baku Azerbaijan Again


Source: Baku Today

http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=4562

21/05/2003

Hundreds of Baku residents became the witnesses of the unusual
phenomenon - the unidentified flying object buzzed above the
city on Monday in the evening.

UFO was observed in various parts of capital approximately from
5 pm to 7pm (Baku time). In the cloudless sky the large light
stain similar to an extended drop of milk has appeared.

The object was not similar to a cloud, aboard the plane or the
helicopter, as moved on a complex trajectory, Ekho newspaper
report says. At 18:35 "drop" suddenly started quickly to leave,
was not dissolved yet in the sky. The abnormal object has caused
interest not only the people of Baku, but also Azerbaijani
experts.

Professor Elchin Khalilov, chief of a commission on the abnormal
phenomena at presidium of Academy of Sciences, shot the UFO on
amateur. Mr. Khalilov has noted that they had already started to
study the video.

"With similar UFO we face for the first time," he told to
reporters. "It is already unequivocally clear, that the fixed
object is not the plane, helicopter or other flying means. The
UFO represents enough, slightly extended form. Thus is
abundantly clear, that it is object of a technical origin."

UFO hung at height of 5 kilometers, and then has departed to the
Caspian Sea side. I can not tell exactly how far the UFO was, he
said. All depends on the size of UFO. On our sight it exceeded
10 m. UFO was rather low above ground and it was large enough,
with symmetric elements on each side.

I admit that this object can be any spy, but only theoretically.
We have experts in air navigation, space researches,
astrophysics, which will involve for the analysis of this
shooting," promised Elchin Khalilov.

Fuad Gasimov, chairman of Cosmic Seismological Department of
Azerbaijan National Aero cosmic Agency says, appearance of UFOs
in the sky is an alarm signal for people who destroys ecosystem
of planet.

As Baku Today reported early this year, an UFO appeared on Baku
on January 2. Some scientists claim that UFOs were also observed
before and warned about natural disaster. Mr. Gasimov stated
that UFOs hinder the prediction of earthquakes and researches
carried out in this field.

"They don't want mankind reveal their secret. But there are some
facts stating that UFOs keep in touch with the scientists.
Though most approach these unserious, objects keep in touch with
selected persons by the means of Morse alphabet or telepathy
signals and transmit information related to the future," he told
to journalists in January of this year. It seems UFO will become
normal guest for Baku inhabitants soon.







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   May > May 20

                    Ufology & Theological Clarifications

From: Eustquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:04:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:35:13 -0400
Subject: Ufology & Theological Clarifications


Source: http://www.gaiaguys.net/Balducci.htm

by Monsignor Corrado Balducci
Pescara, Italy, June 8th, 2001


Monsignor Corrado Balducci is a Vatican theologian and an
insider close to the Pope. He has been featured on national
Italian television numerous times to express that
extraterrestrial contact is a real phenomenon and "not due to
psychological impairment". In this testimony he explains that
not only the general populous but also highly credible, cultured
and educated people of high status are recognizing more and more
that this is a real phenomenon. He goes on to speak about the
extraterrestrial people as part of Gods creation and that they
are not angels nor are they devils. However they are probably
more spiritually evolved. (Thanks to the Disclosure Project.)

Premise.

Over the last 150 years it have appeared sequentially and with
an increasing spreading and frequency rate, two types of
manifestations and phenomena, very different between them, but
both so interesting, controversial and fascinating to divide
public opinion into two different aspects: or everything is
real, or well everything is false. These are spiritualism and
ufology.

It shouldn't surprise us this approach, because it's related
only to the reactions and behaviour of the public before these
two phenomena and not to their contents, obviously quite
different between both of them!

Regarding spiritualism, this is a practice for which there are
testimonies across the centuries; in 1847, with the sisters Fox
in Hydesville (New York), it had a special remark and spread
rapidly in several countries. Very soon there was an explanation
for the phenomena connected to such practices, even by the
scientists: the souls of the disincarnated, better said of the
dead people, are the cause of this. This was called the
spiritualist hypothesis, against which theologians soon opposed
to the so called demonic hypothesis.


Only by the end of XIX century there were made the first
attempts to look for a natural explanation, and finally in 1922,
with the thick book of the French scientist Charles Richet,

"Trait=E8 de M=E8tapsychique", it began officially the so called
Metapsychics, nowadays better known as Parapsychology.

When I began with my demonic and metapsychic studies back in
1950, I found myself in a period when, since two decades ago, it
was denied the existence of spiritualist phenomena (and not only
by some scientists, but also by a very wide public opinion),
that represented at that time the most abundant cases of
Metapsychics.

The same is valid since some decades on regarding Ufology.

After this premise, we reach our subject, for which I have two
very brief clarifications to expose.

- The acronym UFO (Unidentified Flying Object), is used here in
a wider sense, or even better, including also the existence of
living beings in other planets.

- The aim of my intervention is to underline that something real
must exist in the phenomena, and how this does not contrast at
all with Christian religion, being considered positive even
among theologians.

Let's divide the speech in three points:

1. Something real must exist.

2. Theological considerations on the habitability of other planets.

3. Some testimonies favourable to it.

I - UFO: Something real must exist.

This is a statement coming out from basic considerations based
upon common sense, human rationalism and upon a normal and
possible course of our lives, considering not only individual
and social aspects, but also religious.

In fact, today there is a great amount (still increasing) of
testimonies regarding the so called flying saucers or spaceships
and the extraterrestrials; and among them there are some coming
from reliable persons, with a culture and initially non
believers. There are already hundreds of thousands of eye
witnesses in the world that state to have seen UFOs at least
once. There are so many, even in a smaller amount, the
testimonies coming from the so called contactees.

If we consider this, it seems impossible to deny at a rational
level that something real does exist! A totally sceptic
behaviour is not justified at all, because a priori seems to be
against to the elemental prudence suggested by the good sense.

It is also real that we could think rationally that so large
average of testimonies could be due to illusions, hallucinations
and to states of intense suggestion. In other cases it could be
also due to particular light effects or well to atmospheric
phenomena, such as clouds that over the mountains may show a
shape similar to the flying saucers; we could use as an example
the so called ball rays or well globular flashes of lighting.

Other times UFOs could be confused with certain types of round-
  shaped aeroplanes, that were certainly built in USA since the
so called Cold War (it is also certain that Russia built some
aeroplanes of this type). This promoted in the period after
World War II, the spreading of the idea that flying saucers were
nothing else but new inventions with warring aim, obviously kept
secret.

But these are always inaccurate explanations and considerations
to explain the number of testimonies and the wideness of UFO
phenomenon. The most severe and hard criticism could reduce
largely this number, but never will be able to eliminate all of
them.

We also have to remember that in several countries exist places,
organisations and associations that collect evidences and
testimonies on tape, in order to make them examine and study by
experts and scientists as necessary; after that the whole set is
catalogued in explainable and non explainable phenomena. It is
not any longer a secret the existence of the so called "Area 51"
in the United States, within a zone in the hearth of the Nevada
desert; an enormous land area that has a larger construction
underground than on the surface. In France is famous the SEPRA
association; in Italy there is the CUN, "Centro Ufologico
Nazionale" (National Ufological Centre), already on its 36th.
year of existence, and with Dr. Roberto Pinotti as President
since long ago; also in Italy there is since 4 years until now
the CIFAS ("Council of International Federation of Advanced
Studies") dedicated to study the relationships between man and
extraterrestrial space, which President is still Gen. Salvatore
Marcelletti.

Regarding the existence of something real within UFO phenomenon,
I must add another consideration that was left for last to
better underline its importance. And this is, that a
generalised, systematic and total incredulity finally would
weaken and destroy the value of human testimony, with serious
and unforeseeable consequences, because that is the base of life
not only individual and social, but also religious.

In fact, testimony is a form of communication of our faith in
our partner. This is a widely spread way on daily life (when
listening news, spending, buying, etc.). Let's imagine what
could happen on individual and social life if the value of human
testimony was weaken, with the logical decrease and
disappearance of that faith many times is essential for daily
life!

After this, I have extended such inconveniences to religious
life; in fact, also Christian religion is based upon human
testimony, being the Divine Revelation an historical fact.

In 1937 Jesuit theologian Herbert Thurston wrote on purpose:
"From a logical point of view, christians that accept miracles
and other episodes related on the Gospel... they cannot reject
in an obstinate way the reiterated testimonies of modern and
reliable witnesses, that relate what their eyes have seen...

All our Apologetic system is based upon the belief in the Truth
said in the Gospel" ("Church and Spiritualism"; Milan, 1937;
p.p.179). For that: "systematic demolition and discredit of
human testimonies regarding simple fact data, seem to me
contrary in principle to all belief on the historic seriousness
of Gospel, and indirectly, to every belief on Christian
Revelation" (Op. Cit. p.p. 157).

II. Theological and biblical considerations on the habitability
of other planets.

First of all a clarification: we should exclude that angels use
spaceships, due to the fact that they are merely spiritual
beings, and that they are wherever they want to be, and in the
rare cases when they show themselves, they don't have any
difficulty to assume a visible form. The very same we can say
about dead people. Holy Virgin, in the very few cases when she
could consider to be in contact with human people (very
exceptional episodes and to be confirmed in their authenticity),
continues to choose other very different ways to transmit us her
maternal affection, to manifest us her urgencies, to communicate
us her maternal claims or to give us her sweet reproaches. Even
keeping their angelic nature, we shouldn't think about the
devils at all, because they are connected in their liberty to
God on their extraordinary activity, and in that way they are
disabled to express their terrible and malefic hate regarding
us. Let's remember St. August: "If the devil by his own
initiative could do anything, even a single living being would
not stay on Earth" (ML 37, 1246); let's remember also to St.
Buenaventura: "Is so large the demon's cruelty, that he would
swallow us in every moment, if Divine protection don't guard us"
("Diaeta salutis", tit. 7 c.1, Verona 1748, p. 183).

Therefore, when speaking about extraterrestrials, we must think
in beings like us, or well and preferably in other types of
living beings, that in their spiritual part they have associated
a material one; better said, a body in a better state than the
one existing for us as humans.

There is not a scientific certainty yet about this problem, even
if this seems to be closer and closer, thanks to the progress of
science and study. Regarding the theological and biblical aspect
of this matter, we can remark three points, three affirmations
in favour from the various considerations:

1. Before all, that exist other inhabited planets is something
possible. In the Bible there are not specific allusions to other
living beings, but neither is excluded this hypothesis, that for
this stays as possible, if we think that God's omnipotence and
wisdom have no limits, being infinite.

2. Furthermore, the existence of other inhabited planets is
something credible. In fact, there is a great diversity between
angels, merely spiritual beings and us, composed by spirit and
matter; better said, soul and flesh, but a soul that cannot act
if don't use the body as an instrument; a body that makes with
its passions and capital vices conditional the soul to the point
of make human person so fragile, and more devoted to evil than
to goodness. Therefore is credible that this enormous distance
between us and the angels could be reduced by the presence of
beings that, having also a body (even if more perfect), their
soul is less conditioned on their intelligent and volitional
acting.

If necessary, there is another confirmation upon the very
ancient saying of Lucrezio Caro: "Natura non facit saltus"; a
very famous phrase (that I found on the "De rerum natura") and
quoted - regarding that argument - also by some theologians.

Another consideration is taken for the aim of the creation, or
well the Glory of God, a concept that you can find several times
on the Bible. For instance, Psalm 18 begins by saying precisely:
"heavens sing the glory of God". But only human person is able
to give this glory to God in a conscious way, because it has
intelligence and free will.

Precisely for this, several theologians say, is not only
possible but credible, that in the spaces that are distant and
inaccessible for men and his scientific instruments, do exist
other beings able to know God as their Creator, and also they
give im this Glory, that for them and their worlds represent the
aim of Creation.

Jesuit Father Domenico Grasso, Professor of Theology at the
Pontifical Gregorian University wrote on purpose: "Why all the
perfection God has spread so widely in the universe should be
kept hidden without singing the glory of God? Wouldn't it be a
discordance unsuitable for God? Who writes a book knowing that
it will never be read by anyone, or well who paints a painting
to hide it from anyone's sight?".

He claims regarding the statements made by German theologian
Joseph Pohle in one of his books of 1904 (page 457): "It seems
to be accordingly with the aim of the world that inhabitable
celestial bodies are settled by creatures that recognise the
glory of God in the physical beauties of their worlds, in the
same way man does with his smaller world" ("Die Sternewelt
undihre Bewohner" - "The Stars of Universe and its Inhabitants";
K=F6ln 1904; pp. 457). Finally Father Grasso concludes: "we must
think in the angels to know where God receives the glory from
these worlds from, because them, that are purely spiritual, "are
not able to know the matter but indirectly, in the same way man
does with the spirit" (ib.).

3. Beyond to be something possible and credible, I would see
desirable the inhabitability of other planets. In a future, even
if very remote, these eventual inhabitants, superior to us,
could be very helpful to us, specially in our spiritual path. In
a non practical way, they could had been protecting and helping
us since long time ago.

If it is the case that they do really exist intelligent beings
on other planets, it would be easier to understand how to
conciliate their existence with the redemption of Christ. As St.
Paul says (cfr. Col. 1, 16-17), a real fact is that Christ is
the centre and head of the creation of the universe. Therefore
there are no worlds without a reference of Him. From the Bible
is possible to assure that Christ, as Incarnated Verb, has total
influence upon all the possible inhabited planets.

I quote what said by St. Paul to the Colossians: "For by Him all
things were created that are in heaven and that are on Earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
principalities or powers. All things were created through Him
and for Him. And He is before all things and in Him all things
consist... For it pleased the Father that in Him all the
fullness should dwell. And by Him to reconcile all things to
Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
having made peace through the blood of His cross" (Col. 1, 16-
20).

The Church celebrates the last Sunday of the Liturgical Year
(before the Advent) as the Feast of Christ, King of the
universe, and in its liturgy the universality of His kingdom is
remembered, which is also expressed in the daily Mass.

III. Algunos testimonios a favor.

There exist several interesting statements on the inhabitability
of other worlds by lay scientists, theologians or servants of
God which already qualified for a process of beatification or
canonisation. Obviously I'll limit myself to quote just some of
them.

Beginning with the laymen, let me quote the great French
scientist Charles Richet (1850 - 1935), that was, among other
things, a materialist. In 1922, in his "Trait=E8 de
M=E8tapsychique", he stated: "Do we have any right to claim, just
because of our limited senses and our mistaken intelligence,
that man is the only intelligent being in this immense
cosmos?... That other intellectual forces, different from us,
exist, is not only possible but extremely probable. It is even
certain... It is absurd to claim that we are the only
intelligence in nature... The existence of these beings cannot
be proven, but the probability of their existence is evident"
(loc. cit., Paris 1922, pp. 787-788).

I remember 5 theologians:

1. Cardinal Nicol=F2 Cusano (1401 - 1464), philosopher and
scientist that said: "We are not authorised to exclude that on
another star beings do exist, even if they are completely
different from us".

2. The Jesuit Father and astronomer Fr. Angelo Secchi (1818 -
  1876) wrote: "It is absurd to claim that the worlds surrounding
us are large, uninhabited deserts and that the meaning of the
universe lies just in our small, inhabited planet.".

3. The famous Dominican preacher Jacques-Marie-Louis Monsabre
(1827 - 1907) referred to the principle "Natura non facit
saltus" when he claimed that other intelligent beings besides
men and angels exist.

4. The already quoted English Jesuit Father Herbert Thurston
wrote: "Who can claim that there are no other intelligent beings
besides these 3 categories of angels, demons and men in the
Universe of God? I do not intend to confirm the possibility I
indicated in my question as a fact, but I ask: Who can be sure
about it?" (Op. Cit., pp. 3).

5. German Theologian Giuseppe Pohle: "Hypothesis of the
plurality of inhabited worlds is totally favourable to the glory
of the Lord. God creates for His glory, and any glory is
possible without intelligent beings, able to know the creation
of the Lord" .

I remember two persons for whom there is already going on their
process of canonisation:

1. The Salesian Father and Servant of God Don Andrea Beltrami
(1870 - 1897) who prayed also for the possible inhabitants of
other planets. Of the 16 booklets he wrote, one seems to deal
with this topic (and I say "seems" because unfortunately I was
not able to know the titles of his 16 publications).

2. The second (with whom I want to close this paper), is the
already sanctified Padre Pio, who was beatified by Pope John
Paul II on May 2, 1999 and canonised on June 16, 2002. From St.
Fr. Pio, the following dialogue is documented and officially
published by the Cappuchin Order:

Question: "Father, some claim that there are creatures of God on
other planets, too". Answer: "What else? Do you think they don't
exist and that God's omnipotence is limited to this small planet
Earth? What else? Do you think there are no other beings who
love the Lord?".

Another question: "Father, I think the Earth is nothing compared
to other planets and stars". Answer: "Exactly! Yes, and we
Earthlings are nothing, too. The Lord certainly did not limit

His glory to this small Earth. On other planets other beings
exist who did not sin and fall as we did".

(Don Nello Castello: "Cos=EC parl=F2 Padre Pio"; Vicenza, 1974).

Lac. Corrado Balducci

Rome, C. 7 / 6 / 2001








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                         Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:28:39 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:47:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:23:44 -0600

<snip>

 >Gordon Cooper tells an interesting tale in 'Leap of Faith', pp.
 >153-154, recounting what he says he heard from Joaquin 'Jack'
 >Keutner, whom he worked with on the Mercury-Redstone rocket.

 >-----

 >In an attempt to improve accuracy over the target, some V-1s
 >were modified with a cockpit to allow for a pilot, Jack had
 >flown several trips across the English channel atop a V-1
 >strapped under a twin-engine Junkers bomber. After being dropped
 >free, he would air-start the "Flying Bomb". When they got within
 >range of London, he would release the bomb, then turn toward the
 >French coast and ride the rocket home. Before landing, Jack
 >would dump any remaining fuel and glide the V-1, modified with
 >landing skids, to a belly landing in a field.

 >One time, things didn't go as planned. For this flight, they
 >had a two-man cockpit in a V-1, and Jack was checking out a less
 >experienced pilot. When they were dropped by the Junkers, they
 >couldn't get an air start and had to turn back toward France.
 >Jack released the warhead but was unable to dump fuel, so they
 >came in heavy, loaded with combustable fuel and at a high rate
 >of speed: in excess of 270 miles per hour. They hit the field,
 >slid its entire length, and went into a pine forest, leaving a
 >trail of burning debris behind them. The rocket disintegrated.
 >Somehow Jack got out, but the other fellow didn't.

 >At war's end, a manned V-2 was sitting on the pad at Peenemunde,
 >all tested out, fueled up, and ready to go. It would have been
 >launched on a low-energy easterly orbit, Jack explained. The
 >plan: to drop a warhead on New York City. That 1945 manned
 >rocket flight - sixteen years before the first U.S. manned
 >rocket flight - came within a week or two of being launched."

 >-----

 >I guess the kindest thing to say about this silliness is that
 >Cooper must have been a sucker for wild and wooly 'war stories',
 >and it's sad he didn't know enough history and enough
 >aeronautical engineering to realize how impossible all these
 >tales were. That's assuming he actually did get these stories
 >from the German guy.

<snip>

Hi everyone!

See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/balaskas-01.html


for response & images







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   May > May 21

                           Re: Swamp Gas - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:42:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:02:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Swamp Gas - Connors


 >From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >SDate: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:49:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Swamp Gas

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:55:51 -0600
 >>Subject: Swamp Gas

 >>Dear List Denizens and Rabble Rousers:

 >>I come forward today to dispel a research error that has
 >>permeated the field of Ufology. The Ufological record quotes
 >>Dr. Josef Allen Hynek as saying the Hillsdale/Ann Arbor, MI
 >>cases was nothing more than "swamp gas."

 >>Today, I tell all of you, that quotation is in error. Hynek
 >>never said the incident was caused by "swamp gas."

 >>As a regular contributor to EBK's "Strange Days... Indeed!"
 >>radio program, I will dispel this myth on my next regular
 >>gig, sometime in June. Have your tape recorders ready.

 >OK. I feel like I've just been confronted with a crossword
 >puzzle in the newspaper and _have_ to try to solve it. Here's
 >what I think you're referring to:

 >Hynek did not say that the Michigan sightings _were_ nothing but
 >swamp gas. He said that at the time of the press conference he
 >didn't know what the sightings were, but that they could be
 >almost anything. _For_instance_, because they were sighted near
 >a swamp, pockets of gas rising from decaying vegetable matter
 >might produce a brief ball of light that could be taken for a
 >UFO.

 >The media, however, jumped on his "for instance" as if he had
 >laid down the final word about the events. Not so.

 >Am I right?


No. <G> Nice try, though. Have your tape recorder ready.

Wendy







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                     Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Kelly

From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:06:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Kelly


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial


 >I also received a "personal note" from Nobel Laureate Leon M.
 >Lederman addressed to 'me.' It started with: Don Ecker

 >"Dear Friend, I have found great articles in the Skeptical
 >Inquirer that *debunk such examples of 'junk science' as UFOs in
 >Roswell, cold fusion, ghosts and haunted houses, astrology,
 >fortune tellers, crying statues, etc., etc. The exercise of
 >rational (scientific) thinking is essential to preserving our
 >long-term commitment to rationality. Skepticism is an essential
 >attribute of good thinking. Sincerely, Leon M. Lederman Nobel
 >Laureate-Physics 1988."

To the physicists on the List,

This is a bit off the subject, but at least brief. Dr. Lederman
was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering the Higgs boson.
However, the Higgs boson hasn't yet been proven to exist. So,
was his award justified?

Stanton? Bruce? Brad?







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:47:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:08:22 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Connors


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:28:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1


<snip>

 >One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >lights?


So they can see in the dark?

Wendy Connors







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   May > May 21

                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:17:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:13:37 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Gates


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >I have snipped to this question because it's the only thing that
 >has the potential of a productive outcome.

 >>Now, what specific issues do you care to discuss or debate?

 >One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >lights?

Amy, Listers,

The first respone I thought of was along the lines of "Why did
the chicken cross the road?"  :)

On a more serious note. I would observe that many sightings of
UFOs over the years did not involve 'lights'. Say, for example,
DD, or off-hand I recall hearing some reports of so-called
'triangles' that had no lights. All the witness saw was the
silhouette. Some do have lights associated with them others do
not.

Off-hand I would venture to say that anything that anybody comes
up with is pure speculation... that is until we get our hands on
some of the technology and understand how it works.

Cheers,

Robert







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                            Re: Swamp Gas - Heath

From: Gord Heath <gwheath@shaw.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:54:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:28:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Swamp Gas - Heath


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:55:51 -0600
 >Subject: Swamp Gas

 >I come forward today to dispel a research error that has
 >permeated the field of Ufology. The Ufological record quotes Dr.
 >Josef Allen Hynek as saying the Hillsdale/Ann Arbor, MI cases
 >was nothing more than "swamp gas."

 >Today, I tell all of you, that quotation is in error. Hynek
 >never said the incident was caused by "swamp gas."

 >As a regular contributor to EBK's "Strange Days... Indeed!" radio
 >program, I will dispel this myth on my next regular gig,
 >sometime in June. Have your tape recorders ready.

 >The first recognized CE III case by NICAP, involving William
 >Squyres on August 25, 1952, is now preserved on digital audio
 >from an interview Frank Edwards did with him the next day. This
 >tidbit of audio is very important historically for all of us.
 >Little green men in UFOs began with this case.


Hi Wendy,

_This_ would certainly put a lot of UFO history on its head. I
most certainly look forward to the information you have
uncovered about this.

I still remember when the Colorado study findings were
broadcast. I remember how it felt a little like hearing the
findings of the Warren Commission on the JFK assassination. I
also vaguely recall the controversy which was created by Hynek's
comments about the Michigan sightings as possibly originating
from swamp gas. It seems now so ironic in that people are so
willing to accept any explanation for each and every sighting.
Were people actually more open-minded and capable of critical
thinking back then?

By the way, thank you very, very much for your kindness in
sending me your very interesting history of Ruppelt along with
the recordings of Frank Edwards. I am pleased there are still
people out there who are trying to record the real history of
that time with respect to the UFO phenomenom. I'm sure you
realize that back then, it all seemed so new and we were just
starting our own exploration of the aerospace above our planet
and obviously quite surprised to find out it was already
occupied.


Yours truly,

Gord Heath, UFOBC







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                    Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:39:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:31:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood - Hatch


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:26:16 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:05:57 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:36:08 -0400
 >>>Subject: UFOs Planet X & Hazelwood

 >>>As many people recall today, May 15th was the big day for many
 >>>of the planet-x-ers, Hazelwood, Zeta talk for the earth to stop
 >>>spinning, the magnetic field to change, massive earthquakes and
 >>>everything else to happen. What does all of this have to do with
 >>>UFOs? A brief review, then the UFO tie in.

<snip>

 >>How about some full names and URLs so we can see just what was
 >>predicted, by whom, and who bought into it?

 >Larry,

 >The Planet X drivel has been around literally for years.

Yes, but I associated that with Sitchin's malarkey.

 >Zetatalk was started off by a housewife named Nancy who was
 >supposedly channelling this information from ET messengers. The
 >big zeta notion is planetX goes by and the earth stops rotation
 >for about a day and the pole shift happens, not to mention major
 >earth changes, earth quakes and everything else.

 >According to Nancy, she first appeared with/on Michael Lindemann
 >in 1995, later on Strange Univerise, Sightings, Art Bell, not to
 >mention being featured in Art Bells magazine, not to mention
 >others.

 >For a summary which talks about the above, see:

 >http://www.zetatalk.com/usenet/use90387.htm

 >Naturally Zeta apparently dislike/dispise Hazelwood and it is
 >likely the feeling is mutual because Hazelwood claims that
 >zetatalk was exposed as NASA disinformation 5 months ago.
 >Hazelwood has appeared on a number of radio shows promoting his
 >planetx book Blindsided. He supposedly claimed on the Hal Turner
 >radio show that the event is going to happen sometime between
 >May 15th and May 30th of this year and the earth will stop
 >turning for 3 days instead of 1 (Zetatalk) etc etc. Elsewhere
 >the event is scheduled to happen between May 24-31. Hazelwoods
 >site is planetx2003.com; there is a host of other web sites
 >promoting essentially his theory a couple of which are
 >shift2003.com and prep2003.com not to mention a host of others
 >including yahoo news groups, various discussion groups and so
 >on.

 >Some of the folks were advocating various differently
 >constructed buildings as a means of surviving the disasters such
 >as dome construction or something like that.

 >At this point you probably won't find anybody (perhaps a few)
 >that will admit to believing anything that was channeled by the
 >Zetas. Likewise on June 1 or 2nd, you probably will be hard
 >pressed to find anybody that will claim that they believed
 >Hazelwood. The various radio shows will likely be silent and
 >instead wanting to promote the next theory/notion/tale that
 >comes along.


Thanks Robert!

I visited the link you provided. I take it we have Hazelwood to
thank for the latest Pole-Shift version of Planet-X etc., and a
lot more besides.

I don't know much about "Nancy" the channeling housewife, maybe
she was bored. Hazelwood sounds like a prime candidate for Royce
Myer's UFO Watchdog website. Maybe he is already up there with
Sean David Morton and company? The last I looked, Nancy was on
this page:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/hall5.html

I nominate Hazelwood as a co-star.


Best

- Larry







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                      Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:32:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:35:53 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Fleming


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:55:49 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:38:49 -0400
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Velez

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:47:34 -0700
 >>Subject: STS-48 & Larry King

 >>On June 26, 1996 I appeared on Larry King Live on CNN with Jim
 >>Oberg and the topic was STS-48. It was lively as you can see
 >>from the transcript below.

 >>----------------------------------------------------------------

 >>Source: Larry King Live
 >>06/26/92

 >>Larry King: Welcome back to Larry King Live.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Don,

 >Herr Oberg has chosen to grace all of us on UFO UpDates with his
 >all-knowing presence. (And me with his incessant insults and
 >condescension.) One of the many things he uses this forum for is
 >to spread the 'party-line' on the STS-48 footage.

Hi, John. Don't take it too personally. Anyone who tries to
engage Oberg in a rational discussion is sure to get their fair
share of abuse from him. I definitely got more than my fair
share.

 >I'm still waiting for him to respond to another List member who
 >has discovered a discrepancy in the time-code of the STS-48
 >footage. May-haps 'somebody' tampered with the footage? Gee, I
 >wonder why?

Yes, Oberg has deftly dodged the problem by moving on to sniping
at people's "beliefs" about other un-related questions. But he
has _yet_ to explain why we should believe these time stamps
were what he claimed them to be. It looks to me like a lot of
magical thinking and an extremely powerful 'will to believe' are
required in order to give Oberg's claims any credibility.

But he's supposed to be the Space Expert. Maybe Mr. Space Expert
will enlighten the benighted souls on the List as to how time
stamps can be encoded in a video signal after it has been lost.
And perhaps he could explain how two nearly identical frames
came to have time stamps indicating an elapsed time of a minute
and a half between them when the Earth was moving so rapidly
relative to the orbiting shuttle at all other times in the
video.

 >This was a timely and relevant post from you. And as always,
 >right on the money.

Oberg has a copy of the Larry King transcript on his own web
site. I noticed on reading it there that not _one_ mention was
made by him of any time stamps, even though Oberg and his
friends had 9 months to do their 'analysis' of the video. Maybe
someday we'll find out what the _real_ time stamps show, but
since someone at NASA apparently feels entitled to release false
data to deal with FOIA requests, it will be hard to determine
what's real and what isn't.

In addition to not being a Space Expert I'm also not a legal
expert, but I think that releasing false and misleading data in
response to Freedom of Information Act requests might be a
serious violation of federal law. Somebody could cause
themselves some bad long-term problems doing stuff like that.
Oh, what a tangled web they weave ...







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                       Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Ecker

From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 07:34:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:41:51 -0400
Subject: Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Ecker


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:33:58 +0000
 >Subject: Re: STS-48 & Larry King - Hall

 >I second John's comments here, and only wish to ask Don two
 >questions: (1) How did NICAP in 1992 (date from memory but it
 >was 1990s) sponsor anything since no NICAP existed at that
 >time?; and (2) have you read my review of Richard Dolan's book
 >in IUR (Vol. 26, No. 1, Spring 2001)?


Hello Richard;

In response to your question;

I was invited to debate Phil Klass by ParaNet and MICAP, not
NICAP. MICAP is an organazation started by ParaNet Administrator
Mike Corbin.

I do not recall reading your IUR review on Richard Dolans "UFOs
and the National Security State".

Best;

Don

----------------------------------------------------------------

Thought for the day.

What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth ? Well ... judging
from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a
common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
www.ufomag.com






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   May > May 21

                          Re: Rods Exposed - Harmon

From: Michael Harman <rocketman5047@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:02:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Harmon


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >Subject: Rods Exposed

 >Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >called "Rods" phenomenon at:
 >
 >http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 >Last fall I noticed insects flying around a light in the Wal-
 >Mart parking lot and out of the corner of my eye, they looked
 >just like the images being presented for years as "rods".
 >Shortly afterwards, the insect population decreased so I
 >couldn't catch them flying around the lights with my video
 >camera. I have been waiting all winter for the insects to
 >return.
 >
 >On May 5th, 2003, I finally got my chance to test my hypothesis
 >and spent several hours filming insects flying near the lights
 >in the parking lot near our one-and-only McDonalds restaurant.
 >I filmed the insects (seemed like hundreds of them) with
 >various shutter speeds but got the best results capturing "rod"
 >like images by using the Sports setting. Even through the
 >viewfinder, I could see the "rods" (aka insects, bugs) flying
 >near the lights.

 >Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
 >now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
 >among us will know rods are really insects.

 >I encourage anyone interested to go to a parking lot at night
 >with your camcorder set on "Sports", aim and focus your camera
 >on the insects flying close to the light, record, then review
 >the footage in slow motion to see for yourself (most of the time
 >you don't even need to review in slow motion).

 >But please, do not make DVD's, videos, etc. and try to sell your
 >images as "UFO's" or "Rods"! It's time to stop this type of
 >hoax.


Amy,

You are correct in your findings.

I'm a retired USAF photographer, I also studied video technology
while in the Air Force.

It is clear to me how this type of effect can be produced
combining the effects of the rapidly flashing gas street lights
in conjunction with the shutter speed of the video camera. You
are simply photographing the wings flapping. Due to the speed of
the wings/light flicker, you are only capturing the wings
flapping every other or so cycle, thus the alternating efect.

Actually I realized this was a hoax or at best a mis-
identification of a known effect, as soon I started seeing
articles and photoes on the internet. Actually I chose to ignore
them.

It is my professional opinion that UFOs do exist because I have
seen them, and seen them up close, knowing that they do not fit
any known object. But Rods, I must say, just do not exist.


Mike Harman
UFO-PI Private UFO Investigations

http://ufopi.freehomepage.com/indexmain.html Main UFO Web Site
http://www.geocities.com/mike_harman.rm/ Old UFO Web SIte
http://www.geocities.com/rocketman5047/ Music Web Site





--------/ \-----
--------| |-----
--------| |-----
--------/ \-----

Mike Harman







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   May > May 21

                                Colin Norris?

From: Ken Potts <kenpotts@onetel.net.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:46:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:04:34 -0400
Subject: Colin Norris?


Does anyone have the e-mail address for Colin Norris in Adelaide,
South Australia?


Regards,

Ken Potts







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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:54:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:06:20 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:17:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >><snip>

 >>I have snipped to this question because it's the only thing that
 >>has the potential of a productive outcome.

 >>>Now, what specific issues do you care to discuss or debate?

 >>One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >>lights?


How about anti-collision lights? Perhaps one of several reasons
such as a by-product [glowing UFOs] of whatever the heck powers
these things.


Don Ledger






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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:06:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:34:52 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:44:35 -0700
 >subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:52:56 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >Hello Amy:

 >First let me say that I think you are doing a valuable service
 >by putting up IFO images. This is a welcome change from all the
 >fuzzy and inconclusive 'UFO' pix out there.

Thank you, Larry.

 >Known IFO images give us a way of calibrating our eyeballs, a
 >very useful tool. If I could offer some suggestions:

 >1) Contact me off-List for a recommended host ISP for your
 >website. By all means register your own domain name. I
 >registered mine: http://www.larryhatch.net for way less than I
 >thought it would cost. Site hosting costs something like $11 a
 >month. Compare that to simple AOL dial up service [chuckle!]

Will do. Thanks!

 >2) If you have some images that you consider anomalous, by all
 >means put those up too. This balances the ticket a bit.

There are images I place somewhere between UFOs and IFOs but I
am putting them on a separate web site that I am working on.

 >3) The next one is a tough call: .avi footage versus still
 >images. If it were me, I would stick with the stills. Stills are
 >_way_ faster for site visitors to download. Personally, I don't
 >have the patience to download movies. I move right on to the
 >next site. My dial up service is still 56k at best, and life is
 >short. If somebody wants movies, they should go to Blockbuster
 >Video. Lots of fun stuff there.

I've done stills and they just don't convey the larger picture
including the way an object behaves (that's why I learned to
make animations from stills). I have worked hard to manage to
purchase the equipment that would allow me to make MPG's and
other video formats because I wanted to be able to present these
images as close to their original essence as possible. I have
cable for my computer now but I know how it is with 56K. After
we move in a few weeks, we will only be able to use dial-up so I
will be back to 56K for a while. I hope to continue to present
stills as well as MPGs, AVI's, etc. for those who wish to view
the images I have to share.

 >4) I wouldn't debate trifles. This takes precious time away from
 >more useful things.

Yeah, but if I don't, there are those who accuse me of not
answering their questions (seems to be a favorite complaint on
this List). Darned if you do and darned if you don't. I try to
be as complete as possible in my replies but when priority
calls, I turn my attentions elsewhere. BTW, if I am debating
trifles, it's usually because I'm bored and taking a break from
my research.

 >5) Please put up IFOs 101 #2! We have all seen way too much
 >electronic ink on #1.

Uh, Larry, I _did_ put up IFOs #2 on 5-14-03, last week. I just
need to add the answer. IFOs 101 #3 is coming up tomorrow. #3 is
important because I've already found several similar images
posted on the internet as UFOs.

There are so many images being passed off as UFOs that I know
are IFOs. If people would just take a few minutes to go outside
and try taking a few pictures of birds, bugs, debris,
conventional aircraft, etc. they would begin to recognize these
images for what they really are - IFOs. I don't think these so-
called UFO images fool most researchers and investigators but
they seem to fool enough of the general population, especially
when posted on web sites such as Sightings and the Art Bell
site, that they are passed around for years as "proof" of UFOs.
I have sent dozens of letters to web masters including the web
masters of the Sightings and Art Bell web sites (and many
others) indicating the images they are posting as "UFOs" appear
remarkably similar to images I have captured of IFOs. Do they
listen? No. Do they post my letters/information? No. Usually
they don't even respond. Those images are still posted as of
this date (see various links to images in the IFO Database).

I recently sent a letter about my article "Rods Exposed" to the
web master of the Jeff Rense web site, Sightings. He responded
that he would not be posting my information to the site because
it just wasn't as good as the evidence presented by Jose
Escamilla and his team (notice how many advertisements there are
on the Sightings web site for the "RODS" web site and
products?). It didn't matter that the images I had to share
demonstrated a possible misidentification. I then asked to
contact Jeff Rense directly but was informed that I could
contact him but he was so busy he might not respond and agreed
with his web master about the web site's content anyway. Last
time I tried to post materials of another nature, a woman
responded saying the materials would not be posted on the web
site and that Jeff was too busy to answer E-mails or review much
of what goes on with his web site. Anyone else notice the way
the content of the site has changed over the last two years? I
use to be able to send in articles, research, information,
rebuttals, etc. and they were posted. Not any more.

I'm sorry, Larry, I didn't mean to get on my soapbox. It's just
that long before I began sharing IFO images and information here
on this list I have been trying to fight the spread of IFO
images being passed off as UFOs and other phenomena in many
forms of media. This spread of bogus materials is increasing
rather than decreasing and I see very few people bothering to
try and stop it. For example, I came across the "Flyingrods"
web site only recently despite all my searches for "rods"
related materials and all the information I have reviewed about
"rods". Before posting a link to this site on the Updates list,
I went through the archives to see if it had been posted before
- couldn't find it mentioned at all. Why? The "rods" theories
have been discussed on this list many times and although the
theory is not quite UFO related, it keeps popping up. Some of
the best images are posted right there on the Flyingrods web
site and I could have just referred others to the images on that
site instead of spending my own time filming and photographing
these things over and over. Well, needless to say, I am through
with the "rods" stuff. I have much more important projects to
work on. I was disgusted that there was even a need to
demonstrate what "rods" really were to some in the general
public. Anyone with enough sense should have known what those
images represented. But, would you believe, the "rods"
promoters are still at it?!!!

I get a lot of flack (as well as a lot of support) for the IFO
studies I conduct but I don't do it because it brings me great
pleasure and joy. I do IFO research because there are people
going around, either due to simple misidentification or
deliberate hoaxing, photographing and video taping everything
that moves in the sky and slapping these images on the internet,
in books, magazines (wish I had a dollar for the IFOs I have
spotted in UFO magazines!), they are on TV and these images are
even presented at UFO conferences!

Yet I am told these IFO studies have been done before and I'm
just covering old ground, wasting my and everyone else's time.
  Well, point me to these extensive IFO databases? Show me where
these images are presented in mass, up-to-date quantities. If
the work has already been done, then I will gladly get back to
my main research and what really brings me joy and happiness
because I hate doing these IFO studies.

OK, I'll step down off my soapbox now. It's just been building
up, sorry. ;>

Thank you, Larry, for your wonderful feedback and help!

Amy







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                    Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:51:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:32:30 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hall


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >I have snipped to this question because it's the only thing that
 >has the potential of a productive outcome.

 >>Now, what specific issues do you care to discuss or debate?

 >One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >lights?


Amy,

After laughing uncontrollably for several minutes I asked
myself, What is this woman up to? You might as well ask: Why
does the sun shine? Because it does!

What is the point of your question? I thought we aere going to
discuss IFOs vs. UFOs, interpretation of data, witness
testimony...that sort of thing. The only possible answer I could
give you to your question would be pure speculation, and I only
do that under very narrow, carefully defined circumstances.
Furthermore, UFOs have several different types and
configurations of lights including "searchlights,"
circumferential body lights, and laser-like thin beams. I have
discussed the possible functions/purposes of these in The UFO
Evidence, Vol. II.


  - Dick

P.S. Just for the sake of possible future discussions, you said
at one point that you were going to ask your library to order
The UFO Evidence. Did you, and have you had a chance to persuse
it? If so, I can give chapter/page references to various things.








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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:10:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:38:26 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:06:55 -0500
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:44:35 -0700
 >>subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:52:56 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >I'm sorry, Larry, I didn't mean to get on my soapbox. It's just
 >that long before I began sharing IFO images and information here
 >on this list I have been trying to fight the spread of IFO
 >images being passed off as UFOs and other phenomena in many
 >forms of media. This spread of bogus materials is increasing
 >rather than decreasing and I see very few people bothering to
 >try and stop it. For example, I came across the "Flyingrods"
 >web site only recently despite all my searches for "rods"
 >related materials and all the information I have reviewed about
 >"rods". Before posting a link to this site on the Updates list,
 >I went through the archives to see if it had been posted before
 >- couldn't find it mentioned at all. Why? The "rods" theories
 >have been discussed on this list many times and although the
 >theory is not quite UFO related, it keeps popping up. Some of
 >the best images are posted right there on the Flyingrods web
 >site and I could have just referred others to the images on that
 >site instead of spending my own time filming and photographing
 >these things over and over. Well, needless to say, I am through
 >with the "rods" stuff. I have much more important projects to
 >work on. I was disgusted that there was even a need to
 >demonstrate what "rods" really were to some in the general
 >public. Anyone with enough sense should have known what those
 >images represented. But, would you believe, the "rods"
 >promoters are still at it?!!!

 >I get a lot of flack (as well as a lot of support) for the IFO
 >studies I conduct but I don't do it because it brings me great
 >pleasure and joy. I do IFO research because there are people
 >going around, either due to simple misidentification or
 >deliberate hoaxing, photographing and video taping everything
 >that moves in the sky and slapping these images on the internet,
 >in books, magazines (wish I had a dollar for the IFOs I have
 >spotted in UFO magazines!), they are on TV and these images are
 >even presented at UFO conferences!

Amy,

You are to be congratulated for fighting the proliferation of
fake or IFO images on UFO web sites, etc. I have tried to do the
same, but it does fall on deaf ears for exactly the reason you
point out: A vested interest on the part of the web site
operators or TV schlock documentary programs.

 >Yet I am told these IFO studies have been done before and I'm
 >just covering old ground, wasting my and everyone else's time.
 >Well, point me to these extensive IFO databases? Show me where
 >these images are presented in mass, up-to-date quantities. If
 >the work has already been done, then I will gladly get back to
 >my main research and what really brings me joy and happiness
 >because I hate doing these IFO studies.

Your IFO web site also is a valuable thing. My only criticism
has been that you seem not to be aware of long-time efforts
along the same lines (including Allan Hendry's book) and come
across at times as if you think you are the only person aware of
this problem. Good luck with it. Unfortunately, it is an uphill
battle.


  - Dick







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                    Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Bassett

From: Steven G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:53:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:40:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Bassett


 >From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>I also received a "personal note" from Nobel Laureate Leon M.
 >>Lederman addressed to 'me.' It started with: Don Ecker

 >>"Dear Friend, I have found great articles in the Skeptical
 >>Inquirer that *debunk such examples of 'junk science' as UFOs in
 >>Roswell, cold fusion, ghosts and haunted houses, astrology,
 >>fortune tellers, crying statues, etc., etc. The exercise of
 >rational (scientific) thinking is essential to preserving our
 >>long-term commitment to rationality. Skepticism is an essential
 >>attribute of good thinking. Sincerely, Leon M. Lederman Nobel
 >>Laureate-Physics 1988."

 >To the physicists on the List,

 >This is a bit off the subject, but at least brief. Dr. Lederman
 >was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering the Higgs boson.
 >However, the Higgs boson hasn't yet been proven to exist. So,
 >was his award justified?

 >Stanton? Bruce? Brad?

I think we can safely say, if they had called it the Higgs
Unidentified Flying Object, Lederman would still be waiting for
his Nobel Prize.

SB







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 22

                          Filer's Files #21 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:55:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:31:33 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #21 -- 2003


Filer's Files #21 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
May 21, 2003
Majorstar@aol.com Webmaster: Chuck Warren
My website is at: http://www.georgefiler.com/
Sponsored by: http://www.filer.unfranchise.com/

CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL SPOTS DAYLIGHT DISC

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. The US landings and the Eclipse of the Moon
were real, United States Air Force Europe Intelligence says UFOs
are real, Pennsylvania - fast high-flying sphere flies miles
above our heads, Virginia - cigar shaped craft without wings,
Florida - two flying triangles spotted, Kentucky - the craft was
short and wide, Illinois - white cigar in morning sky, Wisconsin
-N orbs seen during eclipse, Arkansas - diamond shaped UFO,
Texas - ten UFOs videotaped in daylight sky, California -
Highway Patrol spots discs and low flying triangle, Washington -
large flying triangle over Seattle, Canada - flying tubes, orbs,
and flying triangle, England - saucers and shrieking UFOs, and
Australian fireball. New NASA Spaceships with nuclear propulsion
and nanotechnology. You may be related to Dolphins.

THE US VISITS AND THE ECLIPSE OF THE MOON WERE REAL

On Thursday evening, May 15th, I saw a spectacular eclipse of
the Moon, and remembered the astronauts who had walked there. I
frequently get letters asking if the US went to the Moon? I was
stationed at Langley Air Force Base the home of NASA's Langley
Research Center and observed firsthand the preparations for
going to the Moon. When the astronauts launched, we had
communication indicating they were in good physical condition
and followed the flight to the Moon. I also have spoken
privately with severNal astronauts who walked on the Moon. I
believe their story. Fox TV claims they were not there because
no stars could be seen in the film. The stars were there, but do
not show due to the brightness of the scene and the F-stop used
by the camera. Our astronauts were there, and I also saw
evidence that they were not alone on the Moon.

UNITED STATES AIR FORCE EUROPE SAYS UFOs ARE REAL

Many people ask me, why do you believe in UFOs? While I was in
the Air Force I chased them and saw reliable messages indicating
their reality. The following message is based on the testimony
of a high-ranking Swedish Air Force Officer. There are thousands
of documents at the National Archives that prove the US military
also believed in their existence. For example: This National
Archives declassified Top Secret memo dated 4 Nov 1948 clearly
shows the USAF was concerned about UFOs, The United Air Forces
iNn Europe Office of Intelligence sent a message to Headquarters
stating:

"For some time we have been concerned by the recurring reports
on flying saucers. They periodically continue to crop up; one
was observed hovering over Neubiberg Air Base for about thirty
minutes. They have been reported by so many sources and from
such a variety of places, we are convinced that they cannot be
disregarded and must be explained on some basis, which is
perhaps slightly beyond the scope of our present intelligence
thinking.

One of these objects was observed by a Swedish technical expert
near his home on the edge of a lake. The object crashed or
landed in the lake and he carefully noted its azimuth from his
point of observation. Swedish intelligence was sufficiently
confident in his observation that a naval salvage team was sent
to the lake. Operations were underway during the visit of USAFE
officers. Divers had discovered a previously uncharted crater on
the floor of the lake. No further information is available, but
we Nare promised knowledge of their results. In their opinion,
the observation was reliable, and they believe that the
depression on the floor of the lake, which didn't appear on
current hydrographic charts, was in fact caused by a flying
saucer.

Although accepting this theory of the origin of these objects
poses a whole new group of questions and puts much of thinking
in a changed light, we are inclined not to discredit entirely
this somewhat spectacular theory, meantime keeping an open mind
on the subject. What are your reactions?"

Thanks to Ryan A. Wood and Nick Redfern
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/authentication/archives/nationa
larchives.html

PENNSYLVANIA - FAST HIGH-FLYING SPHERE

HICKORY RUN STATE PARK - On May 3, 2003, at 9:40 PM, the witness
was camping for the night, and noticed a high-flying sphere
miles above. He states, "I told my friend who was with me
outside our tent, and he agreed that it wasn't a plane, because
there were no blinking lights and it moved too fast for its
altitude." I told my other friend inside the tent, who was
changing, that we saw this thing. He poked his head out, saw the
object, and said, "You've got yourself a damn UFO." The object
moved above our heads and we lost sighNt of it a few minutes
later.

HOLLAND -- On Sunday, May 5, 2003, at 6 PM, the witness was
outdoors and noticed a bright pulsating light "dancing" overhead
at 10:15 PM. He reports, "Dancing means that this object
maneuvered quickly left and right, at one point appeared to
backup, and there was no sound." I called my wife outside and
she witnessed a more subdued motion as the pulsating light moved
over the house and continued northward. The nature of the light
reminded me of an episode on Discovery - with a light powered
disk using laser pulNses for propulsion. The craft however must
have flown a considerable distance, even if it was small and
close. The movements were quicker than any plane I've ever seen
and the path was erratic and beyond the scope of any publicly
known aircraft. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

VIRGINIA - CIGAR SHAPED WITHOUT WINGS

CHESAPEAKE -- On May 6, 2003, at 12:45 PM, the witness was on
his way to work and saw a cigar shaped object at about 1000 feet
altitude. The object appeared to be hovering. The observer says,
"The craft was dark gray, and possibly had black markings, it
was hard to tell since I had to keep my eyes on the road half
the time. " I only saw the craft/object for about 10 seconds. I
reported the cigar to a local news channel. I most definitely
noticed that this craft did not have any wings, nor did it have
any resemblNance to a helicopter. This was something of a
different type. [ http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

FLORIDA TWO FLYING TRIANGLES

BOCA RATON - There were triangle shaped objects in the sky
spaced evenly apart on May 7, 2003, at 9:35 PM. Each flying
triangle craft looked like there were three balls attached
together to from a single craft in the shape of a triangle. The
eyewitness said, "Each craft was luminous like you could see
through them, but you couldn't." Both passed directly under the
moon making it easy to see that they were not weather balloons.
There was no sound as they passed. No flashing lights could be
seen and they both had a Nvery soft silver/blue glow as they
glided along. There was also aircraft with flashing lights that
could be seen off to the right of the flying triangles. They
veered off to the right. I ran through the house, grabbing my
husband and son so they could also see them but the only thing
left in the sky to see was the plane.

LONGWOOD/WINTER SPRINGS - The witness was driving along with a
friend on May 11, 2003, at 2:45 AM, when they noticed a green
shooting light, that was way too low to be a star, going really
fast across the sky. As I am a pilot, I didn't notice any other
possible position lights, any distinct sounds or anything else
abnormal. I can't think of it as fireworks as it didn't leave
any sort of trail and it did not seem low enough. I estimate the
altitude was 2,000 feet or so, going south/southwest at a very
high speed. Couldn't see Nwhere the light went due to trees on
the side of the road. Thanks to Peter Davenport  [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

KENTUCKY - THE CRAFT WAS SHORT AND WIDE,

LOUISVILLE - The witness reports the strange object moved slowly
over his head and then rolled over several times and moved off
in a different direction on May 11, 2003. At 8:55 PM, it was
twilight outside and the craft appeared to be a dark color. The
observer states, "It was shaped like a yellow jacket (bee) and
looked like it had something like wings on both sides in the
front and back. I did not see any lights on the craft and it
moved slow right over my head. It was very cloudy out and the
craft seemed to beN just under the cloud cover. It flew right
over my head, rolled over several times, and changed direction.
I was yelling for my wife to come look at it but by the time she
got out on the deck all she saw was a black dot on the horizon.
I have never seen anything like this before. It may have been a
large balloon like the size used in a parade caught in the wind
but I don't know. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

ILLINOIS - WHITE CIGAR OBJECT IN MORNING SKY.

MARKHAM -- There was only one white spot in the sky on May 3,
2003, at 6:15 AM, that was no larger than a pencil eraser at
arm's length. I figure there is no way that it could be a plane
because it was too high, and a plane would have left a contrail
that high in the air. The eyewitness states, "It was a small
cigar shaped object moving south in the early morning sky with a
few clouds and it moved slowly as it passed overhead. " Thanks
to Peter Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

WISCONSIN - ORB SEEN DURING ECLIPSE

CLINTON COUNTY -- Ashley M. for UFO Wisconsin reports, "A few
friends and I had decided to go park on a hill and watch the
lunar eclipse on May 15, 2003. At about ten o'clock, when the
eclipse was in full swing, from the north, hovering over the
trees we saw an orange/bluish orb." I couldn't really tell how
big it was, or exactly how far away it was, but it was jerking
back and forth at an impossible angle and very fast. It was
shining a red light down into the forest as if it were looking
for something. After a minuNte of hovering, it zigzagged back
and forth its lights dimmed drastically. It started moving east
at a medium speed until it was out of our range. My friends and
I know that this was not a plane. Thanks to [
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/ ]UFO Wisconsin

ARKANSAS DIAMOND SHAPED UFO

On May 7, 2003, at 2 AM, the observer spotted a diamond shaped
fuselage with multiple red and white lights. A thunderstorm had
just passed the area, and the sky was relatively clear. The
eyewitness stated, "Just above the clouds I saw a Diamond shaped
fuselage with swept back wings, the lower fuselage was covered
with fifty red lights in a grid pattern, while the wings were
covered with forty white/silvery lights in a grid pattern,
between the wings and fuselage. The object was black, which is
why I couNld see the definite shape. It flew south in about
thirty seconds and then went out of view in the clouds. I've
worked in aviation for over 30 years and I've never seen
anything like this! Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

TEXAS - TEN BLACK UFOs VIDEOTAPED IN BROAD DAYLIGHT

SAN SABA -- The observers were trying to videotape flying
objects called rods, on May 4, 2003, at 2:40 PM, when they left
their camera on, they managed to capture something else. The
eyewitnesses report, "We have ten black UFOs in our video that
maneuver all over the sky that were caught on hi-8 format video
with a tripod and its very clear with no shakiness and or
digital zooming.

We have looked at the video, and at first blush, the objects
appear to be dark colored birds. However, one of the lead birds
performs a sudden movement, and then stops, in a manner, which
we believe is uncharacteristic of birds' in flight. We suspect
the objects are birds, but we have no explanation for the
strange, sudden movement of the one element of the formation.
Thanks to Peter Davenport

CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL SPOTS DISCS, TRIANGLE

SAN FRANCISCO - The observers were watching the waves for good
surf at Ocean Beach when they noticed a low flying, silent
triangular shaped object about one mile south of the Cliff House
on May 9, 2003, at 1:30 PM. The witness says, "We first thought
it was a Stealth F-117, but I've seen them before and they are
quite loud." Still not sure what it was so I thought I'd report
it anyway to see if anyone else had spotted it.

LAGUAN NIGUEL -- The observers were celebrating Mother's Day on
May 11, 2003, at 10:30 AM, by having breakfast outside on a
clear, cloudless, morning. They had observed vultures and birds
soaring earlier when they noticed a distant object overhead
inland. A short time later they noticed the object made a
reflection from the sun. From a distance it was speculated to be
a glider or balloon. Curiosity caused us to get a pair of 10 X
25 binoculars, and we then determined it was a disc like craft
"soaring" in the morningN sky slowly moving toward the ocean in
a general northward path. We all took turns looking, as it
slowly drifted over our location. As it swooped and floated much
like a bird in a thermal, we could determine the top was a dark
reflective shiny surface, much like lenses in a reflective pair
of sunglasses. As it turned, it was very thin, almost flat,
becoming almost invisible from the side. The bottom side looked
like turbine blades in a jet engine, but they were moving slow
enough to see. The underbelly Nwas either translucent, or
reflected the light from the ground on the surface beyond the
"turbine like" blades. I was able to get several shots with a
digital camera, but at that distance the quality was less than
marginal. We attempted to get a video but the camera had a low
battery and by the time we got it charged the object was out of
sight. It was difficult to determine the size. As a layperson I
felt it could be some unknown kind of domestic unmanned
surveillance craft.

GOLETA - A California Highway Patrol officer (CHP) reports a
lengthy sighting of a peculiar metallic-appearing disc in the
morning sky on May 13, 2003, at 9:20 PM. Peter Davenport, the
director of NUFORC, was contacted by an employee of the Federal
Aviation Administration, inquiring whether we had received any
reports from sources in California, describing a peculiar,
metallic-looking, disc-shaped object in the morning skies in the
vicinity of Santa Barbara. The employee provided us with the
name and telephone number of the individual with whom thNe FAA
had spoken, a CHP Officer, who had described to them his alleged
sighting earlier in the morning. NUFORC spoke with the officer
for 25 minutes, and he described having witnessed a very
bizarre-looking, disc-shaped object in the skies above "the
freeway" in the vicinity of Goleta, CA. The officer had
witnessed the object for an estimated 30 minutes, and several of
his family members had, also, witnessed the same object from a
different location in Santa Barbara. The officer stated that he
first thouNght the object might be some type of kite, but then
abandoned that notion, as he continued to watch it. The object
was circular in appearance, and it was "tumbling, end over end."
He was facing north, and the object was moving to the north,
away from his location, probably passing over the Santa Barbara
Beach. He assumed that other reports might have been submitted
to the Santa Barbara Police or Sheriff, although those two
offices reported that, to the best of their knowledge, no
reports had been submitNted to them. It flew towards Vandenberg
AFB. Thanks to Peter Davenport, NUFORC Director.

WASHINGTON - LARGE TRIANGULAR CRAFT OVER SEATTLE

LAKE WASHINGTON -- As I was entering the I-90 tunnel leading
into Seattle I saw a large craft very low to the ground on April
30, 2003, at 11:41 PM. As I came out of the tunnel into the
city, I turned around to see if it had crashed, and saw instead
a large triangular craft with many lights on the bottom flying
very slowly and low over homes. It was flying slowly for a craft
of its size. I couldn't stop to get a better look, since I was
on the freeway. When I turned my head again I couldn't find it
anymore from the nightN sky.

((NUFORC Note: We spoke with this witness at considerable
length, and she seemed quite serious-minded, and quite credible.
She described the incident quite lucidly and eloquently. She
reported that when she first sighted the triangular object, it
was moving from her left to right (north), and then it suddenly
dipped its nose down, and reversed the direction it was moving,
in less than one-second (estimate). PD))

CANADA - FLYING TUBE, ORBS AND TRIANGLE SPOTTED

CALGARY -- Alan Merrett reports that on May 5, 2002, at 12:35
PM, "A coworker and myself were smoking when I glanced up and
was startled by a brilliant orange flash." I drew the attention
of my coworker and pointed and we both observed what we agreed
was a mechanical object at an altitude greater than the thin
high cirrus at 10,000 meters. The object we were watching
emitted brilliant, irregular flashes of orange light that varied
in intensity. It was too high to see in detail, but there were
two objects (one Nmuch larger than the other) that were joined
by a tube or beam that did not emit light. It hovered in the
same place for several minutes and then began to move northeast
at a slow, steady pace. It stopped and was hovering again and
then moved quickly towards us and abruptly halted almost
overhead. At this point, it was at its brightest and was as
large as a match head held at arm's length, at about 80 degrees
above the horizon. I then ran back inside to get more witnesses
and returned with a female cowNorker and our supervisor. They
both observed the object with us for several minutes before a
small cloud obscured our view.

We waited for it to reappear, but it simply never did. The time
at end of sighting was 12:50 PM. We all agreed that the object
was NOT a meteor, balloon, airplane, helicopter, satellite,
planet, star, space junk reentry, etc. It emitted light from
within itself rather than simply reflecting sunlight off its
surface(s). Initially it gave the impression that it was
tumbling on its horizontal axis but we all agreed that the
flashes that it emitted were too irregular and of varied
intensity to account for Nthis. We were all very puzzled and
excited by the sighting. A first for all of us. The weather was
sunny, +8 Celsius, Visibility 64 km, Humidity 62%, Wind N / 3
kph, Barometer 101.8 kpa, Dewpoint +1 Celsius] Thanks to Alan
Merrett http://members.shaw.ca/amdigital

HOUSTON, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- Brian Vike states that he received
a report from a witness on his way to the Huckleberry Mine in
mid April at 3:15 AM. Seventy kilometers south from town he saw
a multi colored object sitting in one position in the distance
ahead of him. At first, he thought it was a bright star due to
it twinkling different colors. But he realized the sky was
totally over cast. The fellow said he had some extra time before
he had to be at his work place, so he stopped and watched the
lights for 4 to 6 minutes beforeN they dropped down suddenly
behind a mountain. He also claims that the lights dropped
"straight" down rather quickly. Because he was at a distance
from it, he certainly could not hear any sounds coming from the
thing. The lights/object did not make any sudden movements; it
just sat in the one position before disappearing behind the
mountain. In this area there are no towers, or anything else,
which would cause any strange lighting. The area in question is
very rugged and wild.

EAST OF HOUSTON - A 56-year-old man and his mother on their farm
sighted a flying triangle on April 21, 2003. Brian reports a
lady and her husband also witnessed a large triangular shaped
object on April 21, 2003. The interesting thing is they watched
the craft just before the son and Mom had their sighting. The
lady and her husband are just west of Houston at 11:30 PM. So
the timing of the two sighting works out great.

TERRACE -- On May 10, 2003, at 10:55 PM, a witness living in
Terrace, BC was outside burning wood in a barrel, his girlfriend
had left to go inside. The witness was sitting on a bench
watching the fire when he looked up into the southwestern part
of the sky and saw a small white colored light heading to the
northeast. The light was rather bright and traveling quickly. He
viewed the light for about 15 seconds, it blinked a couple of
times before it finally disappeared. Thanks to Brian Vike,
Director HBCC UFO ReseaNrch Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866
262 1989 Editor: Canadian Communicator hbccufo@telus.net,
http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm.

UK/ENGLAND SAUCERS AND SHRIEKING UFOs

SHEFFIELD - The witnesses were out in the woods walking their
dog and looking at the stars on May 5, 2003, at 1:43 AM. They
saw a shooting star or so they thought. My brother Elliot said
the star had stopped. They looked up and saw the star and two
more appeared then. The witness states, "We got scared and two
more came. They were slowly getting bigger and we noticed they
were coming nearer." We could vaguely tell they were saucer
shape. There was a vibrating sound, we panicked but we didn't
move. The objects Nstopped and lights could be made out. The
flashing lights were weird after a few minutes the objects
started humming really loud and just shot off in the same
direction.

BIRMINGHAM - The observers report seeing three unidentified
flying objects dancing in the sky making loud shrieking noises
on May 3, 2003, at 6:15 PM. "My colleagues and I were on our way
home from a business conference in London when we pulled in at
the service station to get some more fuel and some supplies." We
heard a deafening noise and saw three objects speeding across
the sky, that were lit up with bright lights and each had three
red lights in a circular shape, near the center of the bottom of
each object.N The objects seemed to dance in the sky making
shrieking sounds. Then within a second they were gone and there
was this eerie feeling, like there was a storm about to happen.
We couldn't believe what we had seen.

OXFORD -- It was a point of white light that was observed on May
6, 2003, at 10:3O PM. The witness said, "It would be best
described not as an alien ship, more a UFO." It was too high up
to be an airplane, too fast to be a satellite, too slow to be a
shooting star and it had no tail. I do not believe in alien
space ships (as such) but I cannot fathom what this object might
be.

AUSTRALIA FIREBALL

ADELAIDE - A strange fireball was reported on April 26, 2003, at
9:15 PM. The witness states, "We were standing on the driveway
and looked up and saw it come at a great speed, it hovered and
made a weird buzz, then shot off, came back then went away."

It came across about 200 meters high and was all yellow with a
bit of smoke out the back trailing. It hovered for about ten
seconds, and then it flew off into space and then it came back
about two seconds later. It then shot off in kind of a circle.
Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/ ]NUFORC

ANARTICA ANCIENT RUINS ARE FICTION

The news release from the Atlantis Mapping Project is "just
fiction," according to Joeseph Trainor of UFO Roundup.  The AMP
news release alleged that prehistoric ruins had been found two
miles under the ice cap in Antarctica and that one of their film
crews had been missing since November.  The website's mission
statement says, "The world's exclusive link to the secret US dig
in Antarctica, and 'Earth's coolest entertainment,' @lantisTV is
one of the most exotic combinations of fantasy and reality in
entertainment today. Thanks to UFO ROUNDUP Vol 8, # 20 May 21,
2003

NUCLEAR PROPULSION & NANO-TECHNOLOGY SPACESHIPS

NASA is making plans for spaceships that include nuclear
propulsion and stronger materials to cut the time it takes to
reach the edge of our solar system from 15 years to five years,
O'Keefe told several hundred people attending Space Congress, an
annual space industry conference in Cape Canaveral. Developing
the new propulsion system has been allotted $3 billion over five
years in NASA's budget and given the name Project Prometheus.
Besides making space trips speedier, it would also enhance the
ability Nof our robotic spacecraft to perform scientific
investigations of planets,'' O'Keefe said. If used on manned
spacecraft, nuclear propulsion would mean astronauts spend less
time in space, reducing the amount of radiation exposure and
bone and muscle loss they experience, he said. NASA has
previously used nuclear energy to power spacecraft but never in
a propulsion system. Development of nuclear fusion or fission
engines would enable a space vehicle to continue increasing its
speed once away from Earth, sNhortening the time needed to reach
distant planets. These engines also could provide electrical
power instead of relying on solar cells or batteries.

A new form of carbon called a "carbon nanotube" will help
provide light weight extra strong materials for building new
spaceships. A new material discovery has 100 times the strength
of steel but only has a 1/6 of the weight. Carbon nanotubes
phenomenal strength comes from the molecular structure of
nanotubes," explains Dennis Bushnell, a chief scientist at
Langley Research Center (LaRC), NASA's Center of Excellence for
Structures and Materials.  One of the big problems with space
travel is the astronauNts need protection against harmful
radiation rays. You might think that a metal skin of a spaceship
is the answer. Metals are the worst for shielding against the
very dangerous Galactic Cosmic Radiation that consists of
positive ions, such as the nuclei of iron. At very high
velocities, these ions can be like little cannon balls,
streaking through space. When these little cannon balls hit
metals, they can break an atom's nucleus and cause another type
of radiation to form. This new radiation can be worse Nthan the
radiation the metal skins were supposed to stop. Nanotubes look
a little like chicken wire with carbon atoms at each of the
points where the wire connects and can be used like a pegboard
where other substances can be mounted in the lattice. The
nanotubes can be designed to repair itself, using tiny sensors
that send signals that attach to the computer brain of the
spacecraft using molecular wires imbedded in the lattice. If
something needs to be repaired, the computer could tell the
nanotubes toN do it.  Thanks to Rosemary Wilson NASA

Editor's Note: Many people who claim to have been inside UFOs
claim they have the ability to repair themselves when hit by
meteorites.

YOU MAY BE RELATED TO DOLPHINS

For years, marine biologists have told us that dolphins share
many traits with humans, including intelligence and
friendliness. Now, a comparison of dolphin and human chromosomes
shows that the genetic make-up of dolphins is amazingly similar
to humans. In fact, researchers have found that dolphins have
more in common with us genetically than cows, horses or pigs.
"The extent of the genetic similarity came as a real surprise to
us," says David Busbee of Texas A&M University, who published
his results in last week's Cytogenetics and Cell Genetics. This
information will not only help researchers construct the genetic
blueprint of dolphins, but also bolster conservation efforts.
Aided by the progress made in mapping the human genome,
researchers will continue to identify individual genes on
dolphin chromosomes. Busbee the similarities and differences
will reveal how long ago humans and dolphins branched off the
evolutionary tree. Researchers at Texas A&M University applied
"paints," or fluorescently labeled human chromosomes, to dolphin
chromosomes, and found that 13 of 22 dolphin chromosomes were
exactly the same as human chromosomes. Of the remaining nine
dolphin chromosomes, many were combinations or rearrangements of
their human counterparts.

Researchers also identified three dolphin genes that were
similar to human genes.  "Dolphins are marine mammals that swim
in the ocean and it was astonishing to learn that we had more in
common with the dolphin than with land mammals," says Horst
Hameister, professor of medical genetics at the University of
Ulm in Germany. In the past 15 years, the world's dolphin
populations have declined considerably, exacerbated by high
levels of PCBs impair the immune systems of dolphins, leaving
them vulnerable to Ndisease. "Anything that endangers dolphins
is of an equal concern for humans. We need to persuade
governments to become serious about combating industrial
pollution and keeping oceans clean. Thanks to Seema Kumar,
Discovery Channel Online News.

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE! estate agent
to help your buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this
report e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com

NATURAL HEALING FOR YOUR ALLERGIES, PAIN AND ILLNESS

Almost every week, I get letters from people who claim to be
suffering from what they call Chemtrail illness generated by jet
engine, auto emissions, smoking, or allergies caused by molds
and pollen. Breathing in pollution of any kind causes free
radicals to form in your body that are missing an electron,
making the molecule unstable. These unstable free radicals
attack the healthy molecules searching for its missing electron
setting off a destructive chain reaction and creating havoc in
our body. To stop this chain reaction you need antioxidant
nutrients like Isotonix OPC-3

My family was having serious allergy, and pollution associated
illnesses. I asked a Medical Doctor friend, Dr. Jones what he
would recommend. He says, "I treat 62 different ailments such as
allergies, and various breathing problems with amazing success
using Isotonix OPC-3."  "Pasteur Institute scientific studies of
Isotonix OPC-3 have validated that these are the most powerful
antioxidant free radical scavengers know to man, and one of the
greatest discoveries in history." You can purchase antioxidants
Isotonix OPC-3 for about a dollar a day. filer.isotonix.com The
large size is a much better deal. For the latest in anti-aging
technology and HGH enhancement see: [
http://filer.primeblends.com/ ] Anti-Aging Blends

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership. "The MUFON Journal is now
accepting qualified advertising, please call 1 (303) 932-7709
for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer http://www.filer.unfranchise.com/









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   May > May 22

                     Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien

From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:29:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:49:26 -0400
Subject: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien


Amy,

Following your statements about alleged UFO photos and videos,
rods, IFOs etc. I found in my archives that in 1995-96 you
conducted and published an investigation under the name of:
"Alien Convention ". A case of alleged alien encounter and
abduction involving a family and a neighbor and most important
with photographic evidence.

In July 1997 you posted here your report of this case under the
suggestive name of Photograph of an Alien giving a short summary
of the elements of this story. I will quote some of your
statements.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m13-014.shtml

 >From: Yellowrose <yelorose@swbell.net> [Amy Hebert]
 >Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:57:35 -0500 (CDT)
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:09:56 -0400
 >Subject: Photograph Of An Alien?

 >Well, it took me a year but I finally got what
 >appears to be a photograph of an "alien" posted
 >on a web site for all to see.


 >There were actually numerous photographs taken on the
 >last night of this three day encounter but only two
 >contain images of what appear to be beings of unknown
 >origin.  According to the main witness, 8 different
 >species of beings were observed during her abduction
 >and in and around her home.  Through these photographs,
 >we may gain an idea of what these beings may actually
 >look like.


 >I call the critter that appears in this photo,
 >"Bubu".  Bubu and I have spent many hours together
 >the last two years.  It took me a little over a year
 >to figure out why Bubu appears in this photo and
 >what this information may mean to the research community.
 >After the report of this case is presented, I will present
 >the infromation I have learned from studying these photos
 >and possible implications for detecting these beings and
 >their crafts even though they are not always visible.

 >The case is real, the photographs are neither faked nor
 >hoaxed.  Although most people can accept life on other
 >planets and UFOs in our air space, I have found that most
 >people who view these photos simply cannot accept the
 >idea that these beings are among us.  People seem to
 >accept photos of UFOs a lot easier than photos of
 >possible alien life forms.  Perhaps we are not ready
 >or maybe it's time for the next step in expanding our
 >realities.


 >"Yellowrose "

You signed Yellowrose, why not your real name? And there was
not a single reply to your July 1997 post. Maybe no one got
interested in your story. Perhaps the alleged alien photos were
not credible at all. In any case I will give you my personal
opinion. At least you will have mine.

 >Well, it took me a year but I finally got what appears to be a
 >photograph of an "alien"posted on a web site for all to see."

First of all I find this statement of yours very reckless and
frankly awakens suspicions and distrust. An actual photo of an
alien ? I would have used other name more moderate to the story
and reserved the alien photo issue for the content of the report
once the reader have known all the facts of the case and as a
reference of a posible evidence from the witnesses but with high
reserve.

You said it took you a year to convince you this photo presents
an authentic alien. It took me only five minutes to convince me
that there was nothing there that suggests it's an alien body or
something like that.

You presented in your report a photo, several retouched copies
of the same photo signaling some supposed "bodies", a red eye, a
house and enlargements, some drawings made by you of a probe, a
pipe, a reptilian alien, a grey alien, an alien woman and two
more male aliens.

I will refer to the "Alien photo "in question. This is a black
and white photo, at least the one you posted so I don't know if
the original is in color. Under the name of bobbw the image
presents a house wall on the left side and a big flash of light
at the center. The quality of the photo is poor and only
presents white spots and shadows.

The image is distorted and may give the false impression of
capricious forms if you are in the mood to "find something
"after hearing the witnesses testimonials. In this case the
dreadful "Alien ".

As you mentioned in your report you also discovered an "Alien
"in the photo plus some more intriguing features:

"Figure 1 is the photograph in which the image of a being
(referred to as "Being 1") on the sliding glass door was found
after the photographs were developed.  Figure 2 is the same
photograph in Figure 1 with descriptions and outlines added for
clarification."

"However, when this author converted the photographs into slides
for a presentation, a being with huge, bug-like eyes became
visible."

"Figure 4 is an enlargement of the second photograph taken by
Jill in which the being I call, "Being 2", appeared when the
photograph was converted into a slide. Being 2 appears to the
right and behind the hand print on the sliding glass door. If
Being 2 was one of the beings in Cathy's back yard that night,
it was probably about 5 to 6 feet beyond the sliding glass door
and Jill when this photograph was taken."

As you are an abductee Amy I suppose you got impressed by those
ladies testimonials and by simple auto-suggestion you convinced
yourself there was indeed an actual alien in the photo plus the
other features. But if you have received this photo without
knowing anything about the story would you have found anything
unusual ? I bet you would'nt because there's only white dots and
shadows there. I always say in these cases: With a little bit of
imagination you may find...

Your report resulted incomplete and inconclusive for me because
you are not mentioning where it took place, in what city and
it's important. Only the dates of the alleged encounters but not
the full names of the witnesses but this is comprehensible if
they wanted to protect their privacy. By the way you were
writing a book at that time and this is a terrific story.

I found many elements missed in this investigation despite the
fact that it took you a long two years. It seems that "Bubu "
finally convinced you and decided to go public without any
reserve proclaiming you had the ultimate evidence, the
infallible proof of aliens among us: "A photo of an Alien".

Amy you really amaze me. Your path as an experiencer and
researcher has been a disconcerting one, changing boats and
flags so often reveals to me a volatile criterion derived from
an undecided conviction.

Reviewing this report I found very difficult to understand that
it was written by the same Amy Hebert that has a website devoted
to expose UFO photos as false promoting the distrust in every
UFO evidence that may appear without any concern to the source
and the testimonials.

This is my personal opinion and if you feel upset I'm sorry but
I speak open and straight. Amy it's now your turn. I would like
to hear some feedback from our friends and collagues about this
commented "Alien Photo ".

Please examine the photos, the drawings and the report by Amy at
these links:

http://thevanguard.tripod.com/ac3bwless.htm
http://thevanguard.tripod.com/ac2bwless.htm
http://thevanguard.tripod.com/ac1bwless.htm

I checked the webpages and they are still active so hurry up
before "someone"erase them. The general opinion will decide if
this is indeed a true "Alien photograph"or just an "IN-FO "
Identified Non-Flying Object.

Santiago.









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   May > May 22

                      Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:28:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:56:35 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - White


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >Cydonian Imperative
 >5-19-03

 >Martian "Cacti"?

 >See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

Yes, I know that Coast to Coast AM is suspect, but in November
2002, a guest named Stewart Best had some Mars "city" photos,
supposedly from NASA data (possibly downloaded privately in
Spain?) posted.

I don't know if they are available on the new Coast to Coast AM
site, but I saved them to my site, but non-publicly, meaning
there is no clickable way to get from my cover page to these
photos, and they are not spidered by search engine 'bots.  You
need the exact path to find them, which is:

http://www.raven1.net/tithonia.htm

Do you, Mac, or does anyone have information as to the validity
of these images?  Has anyone heard of Stewart Best?  What do you
think of his work?  He seems to be another Richard Hoagland
type.

What made me think to reply with this was that if in fact the images
show city-scale ruins, and the "cactus" things are similarly sized.
I wonder why the "cacti" are in sharp focus, while the "cities" seem
to be blurred?


Eleanor White








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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:52:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:59:55 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:47:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:28:31 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:58:14 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >>One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >>lights?

 >So they can see in the dark?


Good question. When we were checking out the Carp/Guardian case
many years back, we asked a similar question about why a UFO
would need road flares to land. It's hard to say.


Ian Rogers








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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:58:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:03:48 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Rogers


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:54:01 -0300
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

<snip>

 >>One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >>lights?

 >How about anti-collision lights? Perhaps one of several reasons
 >such as a by-product [glowing UFOs] of whatever the heck powers
 >these things.

Maybe that's why there are so many UFO crashes, perhaps? The
lack of anti-collision lights on some craft? To me that's a
better explanation than the idea that our radar somehow disrupts
their flight systems.


Ian Rogers








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                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:05:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:52:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >>>Fair enough. I shall clarify for the List:

 >>>The claim that aliens are habitually visiting the earth
 >>>(crashing into our deserts, abducting humans, mutilating cattle,
 >>>carving crop circles in wheat fields, et al.) requires
 >>>extraordinary evidence.

 >>>The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
 >>>bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
 >>>evidence. Alien bases on the Moon, Mars, underground, aliens
 >>>abducting us, mutilating us and our cattle, are some fairly wild
 >>>ideas. Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
 >>>don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound person
 >>>to believe them.

 >>>Because the people who tell such stories seem sincere? Because
 >>>they have no reason to lie?

 >>>I really hope they have more proof than that. Sadly, they
 >>>usually don't.

 >>OK then Ian -

 >>Please prove that it isn't ET perpetrating these things and who
 >>is actually perpetrating them. Could it be the military? If it
 >>is then the folk sufferring should take their own country to
 >>high court and get true justice done.

 >>These things have gone on for too many years now and anyone with
 >>an ounce of sense wants answers, not to be told they are mad.

 >A-ha! The classic question-with-a-question that so many throw
 >at me. "How do you know it ISN'T aliens?"

It's very simple - some folk say it is Aliens ( ET ), many say
it isn't yet do not 'shovel a glimpse into the ditch' of what
their interpretation of the event is but are well prepared to
call the experiencer a liar ( in effect ). How can folk deny an
interpretation if they dont know what the thing is themselves?

 >Well, I'll tell you something: It's not my job to disprove the
 >wacky theories going around. It's the job of the people making
 >such claims to back them up with suitable evidence. Though, as
 >it's clearly been seen on this list, it doesn't take that much
 >to convince some people.

Yes. OK. I agree if those persons are making money from it. If
they are not then it's entertainment to me and most folk.

 >It's like someone who sees a UFO in the sky and says, 'Hey,
 >look, a vehicle from another planet," and I say, 'How do you
 >know it's from another planet?' You're telling me that an
 >adequate reply would be 'How do I know it isn't?'

Well, if it isn't ET then what do you think it is. That's the
question?

 >Forgive me but that sounds pretty lame. The onus is on the
 >person making the claim to back it up. It's not on me to
 >disprove it. I've never been a debunker. I have never come here
 >and torn apart any one specific case. I have never said alien
 >abduction isn't happening. I have said it will take more than
 >scoop marks and lost time to convince me. I have never said the
 >government isn't lying - about what, who knows, but that
 >doesn't necessarily preclude a dark deal with human-eating,
 >cattle-mutilating grays. I just got told the other day that
 >grays might have eight fingers (something related to binary code
 >and back-engineered alien technology that I can honestly say I
 >didn't give much attention to). So now we know grays have eight
 >fingers? How many abductees have reported any number of fingers
 >on an alien's hand? I'm willing to be that a great many number
 >of fingers have been given over the years, so to say that they
 >have eight, on the words of one of the many alleged alien
 >abductees... I mean, do I really need to say any more?

All I can say here is that the grays who abducted me had 8
digits and many other abductee's noticed this lack of thumbs. I
don't say all ET's are like this and we can be sure they arn't.
By the way - can't prove to you or anyone else my abduction and
not even sure myself that it was ET - could have been brain
washed to think it was.

 >All I have said is that it will take more evidence than it
 >clearly takes some people here to convince me of the rather
 >large claim that aliens are visiting this planet and constantly
 >crashes their ships into the remote regions of our planets. No
 >one wanted to take me up on that challenge, I noticed. Of all
 >the supposed UFO crashes (and retrievals) not one of them
 >occurred in a location that wasn't remote or in place that made
 >verification difficult if not impossible. Again, I have to say
 >thank you to all the alien pilots who managed to avoid dumping
 >their ships in populated areas.

 >To say that enough evidence already exists and that the real
 >problem is that the media won't take people in Ufology seriously
 >is nonsense. If there was a news story here, they would be
 >covering it - not for Ufology but for themselves. There simply
 >isn't enough meat (yet) to get them really interested. Or maybe
 >it's the government controlling all the major newswires and
 >publishers. I don't know. I'm sure someone here does.

Yes, I do and had experience of it enough to say 'it didn't
happen'. It's far easier to say this to obtain a more peaceful
existance.

To me it doesn't matter that not many people believe what is
said and neither does it matter that the real evidence is not
available. What does matter is that the situation has been
ongoing for many many years with so called experts capitalizing
apon it, yet we all get nowhere at all whilst real sufferring is
occuring whether the occurence's are real or not. If a person
has a nightmare the ramifications of it are just the same as if
it was reality. This is the reason de bunkers are so distasteful
because they make the situation greatly worse causing even more
sufferring. OK if the person is making great money but not so if
they are not. I fell, and fall even now, in the last catagory.

What we need are more and better hypothesies to test and better
methodology to test them. Contrary to what you say on this post
the evidence is there if only in the numbers of abductee's and
those 'seeing UFO's' even if they are, or are not, what the
experiencer thinks they are.

Extraterrestrials are real and contact me very regularly. I
don't wish to make money or attract fame from the experiences. I
could give you 'concrete' proof but know that debunkers are now
so good at the art that the proof would never be good enough.
Reading and posting on this List was, is, and will be very
interesting because, as with many other areas of research, all
the answers, ifs, whys and maybes are not yet fully and
definately known. At least they are not to me and ET doesn't
seem to have all the answers either so it's put down to
friendship and cultural exchange. Believe it or not, some of
them have a very good sense of humour.

kind wishes
col








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                  Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:52:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:16:10 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Friedman


 >From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:47:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:49:08 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Hebert

<snip>

 >>One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >>lights?

 >So they can see in the dark?


So they can be seen in the dark.

Stan Friedman







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                          Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:13:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:19:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg


 >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:28:39 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:47:50 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:23:44 -0600

 >>I guess the kindest thing to say about this silliness is that
 >>Cooper must have been a sucker for wild and wooly 'war stories',
 >>and it's sad he didn't know enough history and enough
 >>aeronautical engineering to realize how impossible all these
 >>tales were. That's assuming he actually did get these stories
 >>from the German guy. <snip>

 >Hi everyone!

 >See:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/balaskas-01.html

 >for response & images

Nick, you should also have included this explanation of the
cockpit on the test vehicles:

 >From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@northropgrumman.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:26:14 -0800

 >The manned V-1s were intended to find out why the unmanned ones
 >kept crashing before they were supposed to. Worked, too.

Cooper's credulity (stipulating for ther sake of discussion that
the conversation with the German negineer even occurred) remains
appalling. There's no record of any German pilot flying a V-1
across the English channel and back, with or without 'dropping
the warhead' (which i'm told wasn't even part of the V-1
design).

At the linked page you write:

 >It would seem to me that astronaut Gordon Cooper's account of
 >a planned 1945 manned V-2 (or the longer range version, A-10)
 >orbital attempt by German engineers may be much closer to the
 >truth than James Oberg suspected.

Nick, I do not argue that it is wrong to say that it does seem
that way to you. I'm just not convinced that it seems that way
to any historian or rocket engineer. "Seeming" is not adequate
for history.

The velocity of the V-2 was well known, and it short of orbital
velocity by about an order of magnitude.

Estimates made in 1945-1946 about future German wonder-weapons
also have to be regarded skeptically - it took the USSR and the
US, in a peacetime economy with massive resources, each more
than five years to go from short-range missiles to
intercontinental missiles and orbital flight. The Germans knew
no shortcuts in 1945 - or so it seems to me.








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                     Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Oberg

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:35:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:31:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Oberg



 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >The following is an Editorial I wrote for the Destination Space
 >Website. I think it is germane here.

 >----------------------------------------------------------------

<snip>

 >(In a humorous moment when I was on Larry King Live debating
 >Jim Oberg on the STS-48 shuttle UFO, Oberg accused me of
 >coming on the program to sell magazines when I asked him if he
 >was operating under any security restrictions. The "ad hominem
 >attack!)

<snip>

Humorous indeed that Don should post the transcript of that very
show, where somebody reading it can see that Don's _claim_ of what
I 'accused' was a bit garbled. I said, truthfully, that "I'm not
here as editor of a magazine trying to sell subscriptions," and
I forthrightly answered his question to me about security
restrictions (there were none) - a fact that he seems to have
carelessly left out of his presumably honest-intentioned but
demonstrably distorted recounting of the conversation.






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                   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:51:33 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:13:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Friedman


 >From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>I also received a "personal note" from Nobel Laureate Leon M.
 >>Lederman addressed to 'me.' It started with: Don Ecker

 >>"Dear Friend, I have found great articles in the Skeptical
 >>Inquirer that *debunk such examples of 'junk science' as UFOs in
 >>Roswell, cold fusion, ghosts and haunted houses, astrology,
 >>fortune tellers, crying statues, etc., etc. The exercise of
 >>rational (scientific) thinking is essential to preserving our
 >>long-term commitment to rationality. Skepticism is an essential
 >>attribute of good thinking. Sincerely, Leon M. Lederman Nobel
 >>Laureate-Physics 1988."

 >To the physicists on the List,

 >This is a bit off the subject, but at least brief. Dr. Lederman
 >was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering the Higgs boson.
 >However, the Higgs boson hasn't yet been proven to exist. So,
 >was his award justified?

 >Stanton? Bruce? Brad?

My concern is with low energy nuclear physics, not the very very
high energy Higgs Boson, if it exists. Google had 40,000 hits
on Higgs Boson. But Leon Lederman got his 1/3 of a Nobel Prize
in l988 "for the neutrino beam method and the demonstration of
the doublet structure of the leptons through the discovery of
the muon neutrino". So far as I can tell, nobody has yet
discovered the Higgs Boson.

Many great scientists, journalists, editors have displayed their
arrogance when expressing seemingly professional opinions about
UFOs without the benefit of having studied the evidence. They
were really expressing personal opinions in the guise of
professional ones. I will quote some in my presentation
"Critiquing the Roswell Critics" att the MUFON Symposium at the
Hyatt Regency in Dearborn, Michigan, at 3:30 PM, Saturday, July
5. Bruce is also speaking there along with John Greenewald Jr.,
Neel Freer, Jim Hickman, etc. For more info try:

http://mufon.com/symposiuminfo03.html

For splendid examples of the intellectual bankruptcy of the
pseudoscience of antiufology I suggest reading two new magazine
cover stories about Roswell in Skeptic and Popular Mechanics, if
you have a strong stomach and a great tolerance for verbal
garbage, especially the Skeptic one. I will have to update my
oral MUFON paper.


Stan Friedman

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html






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   May > May 22

               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:01:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:11:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:17:08 -0500
 >Subject: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!


Mr. Fleming's work has had the positive effect of underscoring
the importance of getting more of my research results documented
and available to the UFO community and the public. In the last
few years I had prepared my presentation at Purdue on March 31,
1999, but when I sought a grant from the Fund for UFO Studies
(which funded Kasher's paper) and even CSICOP (which in turn
just asked _me_ for money), the lack of funding dissuaded me
from taking the time necessary to prepare an adequate report.

Now I've also had Dr. Carlotto's new treatment (spring 2003)
'Analysis Of STS-48 Video', at:

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Members/v02n02/b/index.shtml

brought to my attention, and it even further departs from
conclusions my research had reached. So maybe it's time to
prepare a paper that addresses Carlotto's assessments.

I probably should also see if there's anything in Fleming's
claims worth responding to, and as a first step, it would be
helpful to know what his qualifications, if any, are, and who -
  if anyone besides Velez and Ecker - finds his arguments
persuasive. Could I have some help on this, please?

Some of my results will have to be fully documented, included my
assessment of the Orbiter attitude at sunrise, which differs
significantly from Carlotto. Since the sun rises about 45
degrees to the left of orbit track (the `beta angle'), and the
Orbiter's commanded attitude was left wing down, nose pitched
about 10 deg body axis down relative to pure out-of-plane left,
the Sun appears below the Orbiter nose, about 30 degrees down
below pure straight-ahead body axis (+X axis). This leaves a
substantial shadowed zone over the left wing, in the direction
that the aft-rt TV camera was pointed, and right where the DOT
appears as it moves away from the Orbiter and out of the shadow.
This is not proof it WAS a nearby object, but it allows for the
possibility that it was a shadow-to-sunlight object because the
shadow and sunlight are consistent with such a hypothesis.

Carlotto argues: "It is unlikely then that M1 is near the
shuttle since there is no known mechanism to otherwise explain
its appearance." I offer my hypothesis as refutation of this by-
elimination argument.

Carlotto further argues: "The brightness at a point in the image
is proportional to the total energy incident on the
corresponding detector element in the camera. If the angular
extent of M1 is much less than the resolution of the camera, it
could appear to increase gradually in brightness as it moves
from shadow to light due to a gradually increasing fraction of
its surface that is illuminated by the sun being summed by the
detector element. However, the object cannot move by more than
one pixel over the period of brightening (about 1 second) for
this phenomena to occur. Yet M1 moves 66.2 pixels in 8 seconds
or about 8 pixels per second. M1's is moving too fast for the
gradual brightening to occur as a result of this effect. M1 must
be further away."

The brightening over a period of one second is no problem at all
for a small nearby drifting object, despite Carlotto's inability
to imagine how it could happen. For an object over the Orbiter
left wing, moving up into sunlight, it is crossing the shadow-
edge about 30 feet from the structure casting the shadow (the
wing leading edge), and the angular size of the Sun (0.5 degree)
creates a gradation zone of brightness several inches thick. If
it takes the object one second to traverse that zone, it will
grow in brightness for that interval, exactly as Carlotto's
brightness measurements show the dot did.

Carlotto has the earned respect of many years of demonstrated
learning and publication of support for his interpretations. I
believe his claims deserve response.

I am unconvinced that Fleming falls into that category. Some
reasons for my feeling this way:

Fleming: "The demonstrable facts are that the flash of light in
the STS-48 video was lens flare unrelated to any rocket firing
(as shown in the NFS paper) and that time stamps are, in
nontechnical terms, phony." Since Fleming doesn't seem to know
the difference between a fact and a proposed conclusion, I have
little confidence in his ability to reason accurately. And the
fact (well, maybe 'conclusion' is a better word) that he is
unable to understand some (indeed, most) aspects of the space
technology he offers opinions about is strong support, I
suggest, for the conclusion that his ignorance is no proof, as
he seems to claim it is, of his correctness.

Fleming: "(How could the time be downlinked to Earth by the
master timing unit aboard the shuttle six seconds after loss of
signal?) " It's really not my responsibility - or that of any
reader - to fill in the gaps in Fleming's meager knowledge of
space technology. If he had asked anybody who knew about space
shuttle communications (and it is overwhelmingly obvious that he
has assiduously avoided actually talking to any such experts,
perhaps for fear of what their advice would mean for his
thesis), they might mention some differences between Ku-band and
S-band, or some similar mystery of space magic.

The STS-48 Scene List (which as far as I can tell, Fleming has
never seen and has made no effort to obtain - just as he
continues to pretend there were no witnesses to the video
scenes, on the shuttle or in Mission Control - so he will not
use or admit even the existence of any of their testimony, nor
does Carlotto or Kasher or Ecker) provides a clock time of
20:17:28 for the LOS, just as shown in Fleming's paper. It also
provides the time of 20:19:04 for AOS, calling it `Night pass
over China. City lights in view".

If Fleming is truly puzzled by the behavior of the displayed
timer, I can only suggest - he doesn't appear to have thought of
it - that he ask for an explanation at NASA. Instead, he leaps
to 'facts' that are pretty fantastic, IMHO.








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   May > May 22

                        Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:19:46 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:17:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:40:54 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

<snip>

 >I recently came across a web site with some amazing "rods"
 >images and interesting conclusions reached by the research team
 >at:

 >http://www.flyingrods.com/indexfl.asp

 >When you first enter the site, you are greeted by a pop-up that
 >says, "Flying Rods Mystery Solved! Flying Rods Community
 >Research Team... With assurance 95% of Flying Rods are nothing
 >more that (sic) insects filmed at shutter speeds which distort
 >the image, making it appear as something unrecognizable..."

 >It appears this research team first started out believing "rods"
 >images represented a genuine phenomenon but as their results
 >came in, they realized "rods" were nothing but insects afterall.

 >Especially interesting is an article written by Michael Merchant
 >in the "Articles" section of the Flyingrods web site titled
 >"Solved Rods or Eating Crow". He shares all kinds of
 >interesting information about Mr. Escamilla and others.

 >Some of the best images I've ever seen (even better than the
 >images I have to share) are in the "Images" section titled
 >"Filming Bees By Denny White" and "More Filming Bees by Denny
 >White" (the titles are not very creative but good work
 >nonetheless). Incredible effort and amazing "rods" - aka bees -
 > images. Or are those just "rods" dressed up as bees? Or
 >perhaps bees imitating "rods"? Maybe they are cows pretending
 >to be bees, no, I mean "rods", no, I mean rods pretending to be
 >cows, no? Makes your head hurt just thinking about it! Haha.


Hi Amy,

I can't even remember off the top of my head how many years it
has been since this Rods story broke. I remember when it first
came out watching it with a few friends from my MUFON chapter.
Whenever anyone wondered if they could possibly be real or
insects all kinds of logical questions started arising in a
unique deductive process. For example, if they are real how come
I or almost everyone have never seen one?. Where are their
bodies? How could biology and all of science somehow be
ignorant of these "rods"? Why does my sports car not get rods
smashed on its windshield or front? The same would have happened
with my airplane. Of course I was in California, and with its
lower humidity it has much less flying and crawling insects than
more humid areas. Thankfully no mosquitos but sadly none of the
most common nightime illuminated IFOs, fireflies.

Amy, that was quite a large crowd of insects around that parking
lot light. Is that normal at this time of year or are they at
that light in profusion because that light is next to a
McDonalds? Is there something in the eau d' Big Mac aroma that
attracts insects from miles around? That seems a logical next
step in your research.

Posit this: If that light has attracted an inordianate number of
insects next purchase various McDonalds foods and disassemble
them into each of their components. Your experiment begins by
holding various components before those insects and charting how
they respond. If they react especially strongly to a component
sample then it will be time to isolate what within this
component causes the craving.

Perhaps that chemical or its combination can make you a fortune.
In larger doses it may work on humans. If so, you could sell
that knowledge to McDonalds for a way more than seven figure
initial payment. Mc Donalds could add that chemical component to
all their foods and even to their fries. (ha ha, I got out of
saying either French or Freedom fries) You could earn royalties
from whatever sales of items ocurr as an increase in McD's
sales. Please keep us posted with your preliminary and
progressive periodic proper reports. :-)

In your goodness you will donate most of your earnings to top
quality UFO scientifically based research. We all will be much
better off. This is your opportunity to become rich and famous
in a way that will help all of humanity. This is your destiny
Amy Hebert. That is why you live in Texas with its rodlike
insects. I'll bet you could have a bizarre type of artistic
video creation with other creatures of nature shot at various
speeds. What would _they_ look like?

I do confess that there is one kind of rod that really got me
going. His name is Rod Serling.


Ciaobella,

Josh









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   May > May 22

                   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:28:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:26:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee


 >From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

<snip>

 >To the physicists on the List,

 >This is a bit off the subject, but at least brief. Dr. Lederman
 >was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering the Higgs boson.
 >However, the Higgs boson hasn't yet been proven to exist. So,
 >was his award justified?

 >Stanton? Bruce? Brad?

Was Kissenger's Nobel Peace Prize for establishing peace in Viet
Nam justified....? Oh, perhaps that was nasty.

Anyway, I wonder why Lederman hasn't yet discovered the Lederman
boson. Why should any bozo mess around with trying to discover
somone else boson. Why don't he just buzzoff?







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               Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:55:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:29:41 -0400
Subject: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48


I am grateful to Mr. Fleming's messages which made me aware of
new work by Carlotto (I'm judging it to be new because it's
dated recently -- unless that's an artifact of the website
design) on the STS-48 video controversy. This gave me a chance
to visit some of the key arguments and determine whether or not
they were mathematically and physically credible. Here's one of
the biggest cases, I believe, in which an argument fails that
requirement.

Page: Did the Shuttle Fire a Thruster?

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Members/v02n02/b/Text06.shtml

"The graphic below plots the average brightness of the video
frame as a function of time along with the direction of motion
of one of the stars M2 in radians. Following the jump in
brightness, purportedly due to the thruster firing, there is no
significant change in the direction of M2. Yet the apparent
motion of all objects including the star must change if the
attitude of the spacecraft was altered by the thruster. The lack
of any change in attitude following the flash implies the flash
was not due to a thruster firing. "

JimO notes that M2 direction is scaled 0 to 6 radians (radian =
approx 57 degrees), i.e, practically the entire circle.

Time is 10 to 40 seconds, with the "average brightness of the
video frame" occurring between 18 and 23 seconds -- since the
visual pulse occurred in a one-second period and the thruster
firing was on that same timescale, I don't know how to place it
on Carlotto's graph. Carlotto gives to translation to GMT or any
other external timekeeping for his time-zero point.

Regarding the issue of induced rotation rate due to a thruster
firing, already in 1999 I had posted this comment at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=50&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=51&
selm=19991101180303.13748.00001088%40ng-fw1.aol.com

"Evidence has been posted for YEARS that the jet firing seen on
the STS-48 video sequence, thruster L5D, 1.2 seconds, thrust 24
pounds -- twenty four -- changes the rotation rate of the
250,000 lb orbiter by about 0.01 degrees/second -- that's one
hundredth of a degree per second. If you can detect THAT tiny
rate on the video, you're seeing things."

This is also documented on STS-48 data plots shown at:

http://www.igs.net/~hwt/zigzag.html

Now, if the prosaic hypothesis for the dots and their motion
involves a rotation rate change of 0.01 degrees per second, why
does Carlotto plot the 20 seconds or so of post-change motion
(that would amount to no more than a few tenths of a degree) on
a scale with units in RADIANS, each Y-axis scale mark more than
one HUNDRED times bigger than the maximum expected angular
change? Of course the motion induced by the thruster -- if that
hypothesis is indeed correct -- would be undetectable on such a
graph -- from Carlotto's choice of the scale.

Hence, Carlotto's assertion that "The lack of any change in
attitude following the flash implies the flash was not due to a
thruster firing" is unjustified, and even somewhat suspicious in
its supposed fairness as a criterion.

There's even another reason why Carlotto's assertion (that a
lack of perceived motion of a star image implies no change in
Orbiter attitude) is invalid. The location of star M2 is shown
on page:

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Members/v02n02/b/Text03.shtml

and the question must be how MUCH would such a star image change
if the attitude of the Orbiter changed?

I(f the line-of-sight from the camera to the star is orthogonal
to the axis of rotation of the Orbiter, it will move at its
maximum angular rate determined by the physical rotation of the
Orbiter. But the closer and closer the star happens to be to
either pole of the rotation axis, the less it will actually
move. The orientation of the rotation axis, relative to the star
whose position is being tracked, is a critical datum in
determining whether or not a rotation rate has been (or has not
been) induced. Carlotto makes no mention of this physical
effect, and by omitting it ("Yet the apparent motion of all
objects including the star must change if the attitude of the
spacecraft was altered by the thruster"), makes his argument
("The lack of any change in attitude following the flash implies
the flash was not due to a thruster firing") even less
justified.

Repeated deomonstrations of such non-realistic arguments such as
this provide a powerful argument against the credibility of the
non-prosaic claims for the video images -- in my opinion.

But I would like to discuss this issue on logical grounds, if
desired.








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   May > May 22

                      Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:46:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:40:59 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >Cydonian Imperative 5-19-03

 >Martian "Cacti"?

 >See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

 >The new Face image isn't the only oddity greeting visitors to
 >the USGS' labyrinthine file directory. Check out these apparent
 >cactus-like formations:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >Unlike e_1701041.imq.jpg, I don't know where - if it all - this
 >image can be found on Malin Space Science Systems' archive. Sun-
 >angle information and other factors contained in the MSSS
 >ancillary data would help establish what we are (or are not)
 >seeing in this provocative image.


Hello Mac:


Those are indeed interesting looking features!

They look like objects extending upward from the crests of sand
dunes to me, but I'm not good at interpreting such images.

I strongly doubt there is cactus on Mars. Some look more like
pine trees to me, others like superstructures of navy ships,
weather monitoring devices etc. Its certainly worth a look.

If this weren't a USGS.gov webpage, I would strongly suspect
hoaxing, image manipulation etc.

If anyone can get more info, it would be appreciated. At the
very least, what is the official word on such formations? If
geological, then what created such sharp vertical spikes?
Whatever they are, its not camera/imaging defects. All those
many spikes etc. rise from the tops of sand dunes or ridges, and
none from the valleys if I see those correctly.


Best

- Larry







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                   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:28:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:22:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee


 >From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial



 >The following is an Editorial I wrote for the Destination Space
 >Website. I think it is germane here.

 >----------------------------------------------------------------


 >UFO Enigma
 >Editorial: Skeptics or Debunkers?
 >By Don Ecker, Director of Research
 >From The Desk of UFO MAGAZINE

<snip>

 >But my experience by and large is that the skeptical
 >community "explains that which is un-investigated, and does not
 >investigate that which is unexplained." Let me explain.....

 >Philip J. Klass is today considered to be the premier UFO
 >skeptic alive. Klass, now fast approaching 80 years of age, has
 >slashed and burned his way across the landscape for about 35
 >years. Over the now almost 15 years I have been chasing the
 >phenomenon, I have had a number of encounters with "kindly old
 >Phil." Now please, do not get the idea that I am billing myself
 >as the "know all and seen it all" guy, but I have been around
 >the block with a bunch of skeptics in all those years. In my
 >encounters with Klass, Oberg, Sheaffer, Shermer and others I
 >have found that *without exception they *all have taken a page
 >from Robert Low, Project Coordinator of the Condon Committee,
 >and instead of attacking the cases -- they will attack the
 >witnesses. Slashing and burning the word, reputations and
 >character of people reporting on the UFO phenomenon. (In a
 >humorous moment when I was on Larry King Live debating Jim Oberg
 >on the STS-48 shuttle UFO, Oberg accused me of coming on the
 >program to sell magazines when I asked him if he was operating
 >under any security restrictions. The "ad hominem attack!)

 >I do not have either the time or space to give you a litany of
 >each skeptic I have named, so this month I will simply zero in
 >on one, Phil Klass.

<snip>

 >Klass's position is such that if anyone is willing to propose
 >that some cases might possibly be explained as off world
 >echnology, then they are only seeking celebrity status or
 >attempting to make money. At this point, Klass then zeroes in on
 >the character of the researcher. In 1983, Klass began an attack
 >directed against the University of Nebraska because they were
 >sponsoring a UFO conference. In a conversation with the
 >university's administrator Klass charged that "ufologists 'seek
 >what the Soviet Union does, to convey to the public that our
 >government can not be trusted, and I resent it as an American
 >citizen." He equated UFO research with communism, as un-
 >patriotic and anti-American. Klass went on to phone faculty and
 >further claimed that for the university to sponsor such a
 >conference (UFOs) was comparable to the dilemma they would face
 >if the American Nazi Party wanted to hold a conference there.
 >Later CSICOP spokesman Mark Plummer wrote that he found nothing
 >excessive in Klass's claims.

 >I had personal experience with Klass on two different occasions
 >when he displayed his fanatic anti-UFO sentiments. In 1992, I
 >was invited to debate Klass in Denver, sponsored by ParaNet and
 >MICAP. During the debate we began to discuss the Frederick
 >Valentich case. This was a case of a young Australian pilot who
 >disappeared in 1978 after radioing that he was being approached
 >by a huge UFO. (The RAAF became involved in this case, but no
 >aircraft or body was ever located.) Klass began by calling
 >Valentich a "drug smuggler." I was not about to allow him to get
 >away with that and demanded he prove his assertion. His proof?
 >Valentich had four life preservers in his aircraft. Klass has
 >operated on the assumption that if the case cannot be discarded
 >because the claims can't be disproved, then it *must be a hoax
 >because UFOs simply cannot be real!

Although I haven't had correspondence with PJK for many years
now, I had voluminuous correspondence with him in the latter
1970's and through the 1980's. Two cases figured prominently in
our correspondence, McMinnville (photos, 1950) and New Zealand
(Dec. 1978, movie film, multiple witnesses, color movie, radar).
Phil has written about both of these cases: McMinnville in "UFOS
Explained" (1973) and "UFOs: the Public Deceived" (1983, in
which he deceived the public). Another case that received some
correpondence is the only one that Klass, by default, admits is
unexplained(!)... yes, folks, unexplained! I refer to the Val
Johnson police car case (Aug 1980) which he wrote about in
'...Deceived'.

But the reason I trump in here is not because of Val Johnson or
McMinnville, although in both of these Phil's ultimate resort
was to disparage the witnesses (the Trents, farmers, were
outright hoaxers and Johnson was a 'practical joker'). The
reason I trump in here is because of Phil's published
"explanation" of a particular portion of the Dec. 1978 New
Zealand sightings (which occurred about 2 months after the
Valentich case in Australia).

Phil has been noted to summarize the results of his years of
"investigation" as follows:" there is no case I have examined
for which I could not find a 'prosaic explanation.' "

This term 'prosaic explanation' is so important that I wrote a
paper about it, presented aqt the MUFON sym several years ago,
and on my web site ('Prosaic Explanations: the Failure of UFO
Skepticism). (Phil has never commented on my 'destruction' of
his claim.) see http://brumac.8k.com

In the Dec. 1978 New Zealand case, Phil ultimately had to
explain one of the sightings as a collusion or "hoax" by the
pilots. For those of you who know nothing about this I refer you
to my web site for shortened versions of several of the
seperable events that night (early morning). The pilots,
experienced in night flying around the area off the east coast
of the South Island of New Zealand, initially had not been able
to identify a very bright light seen as the plane flew
northeastward from Christchurch.

The air crew had informed the news crew on board ( 2 reporters,
cameraman.... why they were on board is a long story) that they
didn't know what the light was, and so the news crew paid
attention to it, filmed it, etc. and subsequently went public
with the claim that it was unidentified.

However, according to Phil's way of thinking, the pilot and
copilot had finally, after many minutes of observation, realized
what they were looking at (a squid boat!) but that the pilot and
copilot decided not to tell the film crew (reporter, cameraman,
sound recordist) because they didn't want to embarrass
themselves. That is, it would have been embarrassing for the air
crew to admit to the news crew that, initally, they didn't know
what the light was. And, because the air crew didn't admit their
mistake, the sighting of the bright light became one of the most
widely publicized UFO sightings ever (now recalled by only a
few).

In other words, Phil justified his explanation of the light as a
squid boat which the pilots couldn't recognize by claiming that
they did recognize it, but didn't tell the news crew. Thus, Phil
wrote in his book "...Deceived...." that the bright light was a
squid boat.

Of course, there was the color movie film and a lot of analysis
which showed it wasn't a squid boat, but the physical data
didn't matter to Phil. (see my web site). Moreover, I know that
Phil was aware of the physical data and analysis because it made
up a portion of the over 1,000 (over 1,200?) pages of
correspondence which we generated about the New Zealand
sightings starting in Jan 1979 and essenaitlly ending about 5
years later.

An even more egregious example of ignoring data in favor of "ad
hominem attack", is the sighting event that occurred minutes
after the "squid boat" sighting mentioned above. This event
includes color move film of a bright light that flashes
periodically abot once per second and which clearly changes
color from bright white (overexposed images on the film) to dim
red and orange, occasionally making a triangular (!) array of
three "dots" on the film: orange above two red. Phil's
explanation was that the cameraman had, somehow, filmed the
flahing red beacon on top of the airplane. The reason' for this
explanation was that the beacon flash rate was the same' as the
flash rate of the light in the film (to within experimental
accuracy), Of course, the cameraman inside the plane could not
directly see the flashing beacon so Phil imagined some
(virtually impossible) reflection off the propellor blade, i.e.,
that the cameraman filmed out the side of the plane toward the
propellor (while everyone else was looking at a flashing light
in front of the plane... but don';t let the verbal testimony get
in the way of a "good" explanation.)

There is a big problem with Phil's explanation, a problem based
in optical physics, and the main reason I have taken the time to
write this message. I also want to emphasize that it was during
this correspondence in 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, that Phil came up
with this explanation. I therefore analyzed his explanation and
discovered the following information.

The film clearly shows that the images of this flashing light,
or pulsating would be a better term, when at their brightest at
white or perhaps pale yellow/orange. However, there is not a
hint of red. Yet the beacon on top of the plane was "pure" red.
So, the question is this: if we grant that it was physically
possible (although highly unlikely) that the cameraman filmed a
(faint) reflection of the rotating propellor blade, where did
the red go? That is, red light starts from the beacon, reflects
off the propellor, and enters the camera lens and makes a bright
white (yellow) image with not a hint of red? How?

Many (hundreds?) pages of correspondence with Phil were devoted
to my analysis and experiments to test his hypothesis. I found
out what would happen if one takes a color picture of a bright
red light. If the image is well exposed then the image is red.
If, however, there is a lot of overexposure, the center of the
image can turn pale yellow or white or there can be a ring of
yellow around the central white, extremely overexposed area This
is surrounded by yet another ring, a ring that most emphatically
did NOT appear in the color movie film. Perhaps you have guessed
that this outer ring is red!!. Yes, the fact that the light
source is red turns up as a red ring or annulus around the
overexposed region.

Explanation: light from a tiny source (point source) like a red
light at a distance is focused onto the film and, if the light
is bright enough the center can be overexposed. However, getting
out toward hte edge of the image the amount of light drops
rapidly (to zero beyond the edge) and therefore there is some
distance from the center at which the light intensity is low
enough to produce the correct exposure. (Another effect,
sideways scattering of light within the film, can also reduce
the light intensity at distances from the center of the image.)

What I have just described occurs with overexposed images of any
color: overexposed green images have a green ring, overexposed
blue images have a blue ring, etc.

The bottom line is that the bright images on the film had NO
red ring and therefore they COULDN'T have been made by
filming the red beacon directly or as reflected off a metal
propellor blade. I did experiments to verify this with
slide film and I also pointed out to Phil that the cameraman had,
in fact, done the confirming experiment quite by chance before
the sightings. The cameraman had set up his camera on the
airfield tarmac and had filmed the airplance before takeoff
simply to provide background footage and "run his camera in."

The film shows the red beacon light pulsating and the beacon
rotated. Each time the beacon pointed toward the camera the red
image became overexposde and created images with yellow centers
and...... red rings around the yellow centers.

OK, so I am long winded here, but I wanted to point out that
Phil was aware of the physical argument against his
explanation BEFORE he published "...Deceived". Did that
deter him from publishing his explanation?

No.
It turns up in '...Deceived' and so Phil managed to deceive
lots of people into believing that he had explained this portion
of the New Zealand sightings (as well as the other portions,
of course, using different explanations as necessary).

Here was a clear case of physics against a "prosaic
explanation"......  and the failed explanation won out.

Maccabee's First Law for Debunkers: Any explanation
is better than none.

(This works if you know that the readers/hearers of the
explanation are unlikely to invest their own time to
learn the truth.)





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   May > May 22

                               Mars Unearthed

From: ken kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 02:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:12:26 -0400
Subject: Mars Unearthed


List,

If anyone would like to see some bona fide and excellent
photographs of Martian anomalies, go to:

www.marsunearthed.com


Ken Kelly








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   May > May 22

                    Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:52:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:21:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:35:04 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

 ><snip>

 >>(In a humorous moment when I was on Larry King Live
 >debating >Jim Oberg on the STS-48 shuttle UFO, Oberg accused
 >me of >coming on the program to sell magazines when I asked
 >him if he >was operating under any security restrictions.
 >The "ad hominem attack!)

 ><snip>

 >Humorous indeed that Don should post the transcript of that
 >very show, where somebody reading it can see that Don's
 >_claim_ of what I 'accused' was a bit garbled. I said,
 >truthfully, that "I'm not here as editor of a magazine trying
 >to sell subscriptions," and I forthrightly answered his
 >question to me about security restrictions (there were none)
 >- a fact that he seems to have carelessly left out of his
 >presumably honest-intentioned but demonstrably distorted
 >recounting of the conversation.

But you must admit that you could have simply answered the
question _without_ impugning anything Ecker said by suggesting
he was just there to promote sale for his magazine.

That is the trouble with ufology... or, as Jim Moseley calls it,
ufoology. Instead of having civil conversations, people seem
compelled to engage in snide digs and outright attacks. If there
was just one thing we could do to improve methodology in the
field, a refusal to engage in that kind of exchange would be a
major step forward.


Brenda Denzler







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   May > May 22

                  'Chariots Of The Gods' Land in Swiss Alps

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:32:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:32:38 -0400
Subject: 'Chariots Of The Gods' Land in Swiss Alps




Source: Belleville News-Democrat, Illinois

http://www.belleville.com/mld/newsdemocrat/5890893.htm

Posted on Sun, May. 18, 2003

'Chariots Of The Gods' Land in Swiss Alps

Clare Nullis
Associated Press

INTERLAKEN, Switzerland - Long before the "X-Files" craze and
talk of alien abductions, when man was still preparing his first
trip to the moon, a Swiss hotel manager came up with a theory
that earthly civilization began with extraterrestrial visits
thousands of years ago.

Ridicule from scientists notwithstanding, Erich von Daeniken
sold 60 million books in 32 languages and made "Chariots of the
Gods" part of the ufologist's lexicon.

Thirty-five years on, the fascination endures. There are plans
for a 22-part TV series called "Chariots of the Gods - The
Mysteries Continue." And von Daeniken's ancient astronauts are
set to make a permanent landing in a scenic Alpine valley with
Saturday's opening of the world's only theme park devoted to
historic wonders like the Egyptian pyramids and future unknowns
like the conquest of Mars.

"Imagine you are back in ancient Egypt," von Daeniken declared
during a tour of the disused airfield in Interlaken where he has
built the park.

The great pyramid of Giza was larger than the cathedrals of
Milan, Rome and Florence put together, he mused. Why and how
were 2.5 million stone blocks piled up, the biggest weighing 400
tons? Who built the pyramids, apart from Pharaoh Cheops, who
only reigned for 20 years and whose mummy has not been found?

"There are lots of questions, but you won't get any answers out
of us," von Daeniken, short, stocky and suntanned, concluded in
winding up a well-practiced routine.

The 68-year-old grandfather, who enjoys cooking and French wine
in his home in the Alpine village of Beatenberg, said he first
got the idea for his Mystery Park 20 years ago.

He says he wants visitors to experience firsthand the sense of
"wonder and astonishment" that inspired him to write "Chariots
of the Gods" in 1966 while he was managing a luxury hotel.

"I claim that our forefathers received visits from the universe
in the remote past ... that these 'strangers' annihilated part
of mankind existing at the time and produced a new, perhaps the
first, Homo sapiens," he wrote in the foreword to the book.

Von Daeniken, who skipped university and served a couple of
short stints in prison for fraud, backed up his ideas with
detailed scientific "facts" and archaeological theories based on
his study of pyramids and ancient ruins and lost cities.

The book was published in 1968 and caused a sensation - "a work
of monumental importance ... which has withstood the test of
time," Amazon.com says.

His theories about the origin of modern man brought him into
conflict with the Roman Catholic Church and his argument in
general was derided by scientists. But readers - especially in
the United States and Germany - loved them. Book followed book,
allowing him to proclaim himself the best-selling nonfiction
writer of all time.

His most recent title, "The Gods Were Astronauts," published in
2001, explores the great world religions, their myths and belief
structures in an attempt to discover who or what were the gods
described in ancient stories. His conclusion is they were
extraterrestrials who left traces of their presence everywhere
on Earth.

Von Daeniken says the forthcoming TV series combines "the
suspenseful investigative techniques of 'CSI,' melds it with the
exotic adventures of 'Alias,' and then throws in a dash of 'Tomb
Raider' for good measure."

Despite the huge public success, critics continue to pan his
theories.

"These mythologizations are so silly, they are easily disproved
and rather embarrassing," exclaimed David Brin, an astronomer
and science fiction writer who writes about the possibility of
life elsewhere.

"These people hate the open scientific discourse that has
developed with the vast spread of education. They want secrets,
ancient or modern, that only they know," Brin added.

Von Daeniken dismisses such criticism as pure jealousy. He cites
a string of honorary doctorates and other awards from around the
world as proof that he is taken seriously. He also trumpets his
archaeology and astronautics research association, which
publishes "Legendary Times," a newsletter devoted to his ancient
astronaut theory.

He shows no sign of slowing down, saying his lecture appearances
and research take him an estimated 100,000 miles a year.

He retains an adoring following.

"You helped me so much, to open my eyes to all the truth
forgotten in time, all the truth about our past," Diana Al
Hazard from Paris wrote in one of dozens of Happy 68th Birthday
messages posted on von Daeniken's Web site. "I thank you so much
for everything. You really fulfilled your mission on this
planet."

Other readers, however, said they enjoyed the books but took the
theories with a pinch of salt.

"I've been interested in such `blue sky' stories for decades but
never fell for the extrapolations of old Erich," said Jack
Greenfield, a 68-year-old public relations consultant in New
York. "He made a lot of money and I suppose gave many of us a
good deal of exciting reading pleasure and food for thought.

"Trouble is, nothing he said, as far as I can tell, was ever
even distantly related to truth."



Erich von Daeniken: http://www.daeniken.com


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]








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   May > May 22

                          Taking A Shot At Einstein

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:28:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:28:34 -0400
Subject: Taking A Shot At Einstein




Source: US News

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030526/misc/26beyond.htm

Science & Technology 5/26/03

Taking A Shot At Einstein

Seeking a grander theory, rebel physicists break a cosmic speed
limit

By Robert Kunzig

Even if Jo=E3o Magueijo had not advocated castrating an editor at
a prestigious science journal, and even if he hadn't suggested
that rival physicists, ostensibly brilliant like Magueijo, were
just posers--in short, even if Magueijo were a less colorful
rebel, his ideas would have attracted attention. After all, he
is taking on Einstein, and ever since we placed Einstein on a
pedestal, we have been titillated by the idea of knocking him
off. Magazine editors know that putting the antic-haired genius
on the cover, perhaps over the words Faster Than the Speed of
Light--the somewhat misleading title of Magueijo's recent book--
all but guarantees sales.

And yet Magueijo, a physicist at Imperial College, London, is
for real, and he is not alone. As we near the end of our first
century in a relative universe, challenges to Einstein's theory
are in the air. They are respectful challenges; even Magueijo
isn't proposing to throw relativity out the window, any more
than Einstein junked Newton. "We get E-mail and letters all the
time from amateurs who think they have found a mistake in
Einstein's theory," says Lee Smolin, a physicist at the
Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Ontario. "That's not what is
going on here." If relativity is wrong, it is wrong by such tiny
amounts or in such particular circumstances that you have to go
to great lengths to find the error.

But there is optimism these days that, by studying light from
the distant universe, researchers may soon be able to measure
such smaller-than-nano deviations. They may need to find them,
if they are ever to create a unified theory of all the forces of
nature. To fulfill that dream, which obsessed Einstein after he
turned 40 or so, physicists may have to tinker with the theory
he invented when he, too, was a young revolutionary, disguised
as a patent clerk. They may have to bend his best-known
principle: the one that says the speed of light is an absolute,
always and everywhere the same, and faster than anything else.

C is special. That principle was born in 1905, when Einstein
wedded space and time into something called spacetime. Until
then, in Newtonian physics, space and time were separate,
independent of each other and of the things in them. Time flowed
at the same rate for everyone, and space was a fixed stage on
which the universe played out its history. Nineteenth-century
physicists filled that stage with a mysterious, invisible
"aether," a medium that transmitted light waves the way air
transmits sound waves. The aether was assumed to be at absolute
rest, a fixed "reference frame" for all motions.

No one could ever detect the aether, though; in the 1880s,
Albert Michelson and Edward Morley tried ingeniously and failed.
And after Einstein proposed his theory of special relativity two
decades later, physicists realized they should give up on
absolute space and time. Einstein postulated, first, that the
laws of physics don't prefer one reference frame over another,
as long as each is moving at a constant velocity. Second, he
said that c, the speed of light, will appear exactly the same to
every observer, in every frame of reference.

A century later, that second postulate still defies common
sense. It says that if you're driving down the highway at a
quarter the speed of light, you'll still see the photons from
your headlights racing ahead of you at light speed--not three-
quarters light speed. If I'm coming from the opposite direction
at half light speed, I'll still see your photons approaching at
c--not 1.5 times c. Since speed is just space divided by time,
and we both agree about the speed of light, we can't possibly
agree about space and time. You say my clock is too slow and my
yardstick has shrunk (not to mention my whole car). Maddeningly,
I say the same about you. The one thing we agree on, aside from
c itself, is the distance covered by the photons in the weird
new reference frame of four-dimensional spacetime.

It might be a relief to learn that physicists were talking about
chucking this deeply strange theory. But just as Einstein made
only minute corrections to Newton in everyday life--to really
feel the effects of special relativity, you have to move at a
large fraction of light speed--the proposed changes to
relativity would have only subtle, hard-to-detect effects. Yet
the stakes are big: the quest for a single theory that would
unite general relativity, Einstein's later theory describing
gravity, with quantum mechanics, the theory describing the
forces inside the atom.

Physicists are taking many paths to this "quantum gravity"
grail, but in all of them spacetime itself, instead of being
continuous, is made of quantum bits. "It's like the difference
between sand and water," says Giovanni Amelino-Camelia of La
Sapienza University in Rome--except that the spacetime grains
could be around a hundred billion billionth the size of an
atomic nucleus. At this "Planck length," named after the father
of quantum physics, gravity would no longer be described by
general relativity but by the new theory.

It's also where you run into a conflict with special relativity,
Amelino-Camelia found a few years ago. Because measurements of
length depend on the velocity of the observer, two observers
could end up disagreeing about whether a physical process was
taking place at the Planck scale or not, and which laws applied.
One would say the process was governed by quantum gravity; the
other would say general relativity.

After a long struggle--"three years of frustration and a couple
of evenings of success"--Amelino-Camelia came up with a way
around this absurdity: "doubly special relativity." The math is
not simple, but the basic idea is. To the maximum speed limit
that Einstein set, Amelino-Camelia would add a minimum length,
below which space could not contract, no matter how fast the
observer moved. That limit would be the size of the spacetime
quanta.

That minimum length comes at a cost, however: The speed of light
would no longer be a constant. The more energetic a photon,
Amelino-Camelia's calculations indicate, the faster it would
navigate the minefield of quantized spacetime. If you were to
pit blue photons against red photons in a race across the
Atlantic, Amelino-Camelia says, the blue ones--being slightly
higher in energy-- would win by about
0.000000000000000000000000001 of a second.

The effect on light speed would be much more dramatic at the
fantastic energies that prevailed in the primordial fireball of
the big bang--and that's where Amelino-Camelia's ideas intersect
with the very different approach of cosmologist Jo=E3o Magueijo.
On a rainy winter morning a few years back, Magueijo was
brooding about some of the most nagging problems of cosmology.
As he walked across an athletic field at Cambridge University,
he writes in his book, "the answer seemed to drop from the sky."
(He later learned that a Canadian physicist named John Moffat
had beat him to the epiphany.) Just allow light to travel much
faster in the first fraction of a second after the big bang--
quadrillions upon quadrillions of times faster--and the problems
would be solved.

Take the so-called horizon problem. From beyond the farthest
galaxies comes a faint emanation called the cosmic microwave
background, the afterglow of the big bang. It looks almost
exactly the same in every direction, meaning the hot gases it
came from must have had almost exactly the same temperature.
When the background was emitted, around 300,000 years after the
big bang, light had had only 300,000 years to travel. Yet the
universe was already tens of millions of light-years across. Its
opposite sides could not have exchanged light or heat. Short of
an incredible fluke, how could they have evened out their
temperature?

The widely accepted but still unproven solution is the
inflationary-universe theory. It says that the opposite sides of
the universe were originally in contact, because the universe
was much smaller in its first instants than the standard Big
Bang theory suggests; it then underwent an infinitesimally brief
but exponential inflation that swept its parts far out of
contact with each other. Walking in the rain, Magueijo
discovered what to him seemed a more elegant solution: The
different regions of the early universe were in contact not
because it was smaller but because light traveled much faster--
fast enough to connect them. The laws of physics must have
changed since then, drastically slowing light.

Lately, though, he and Smolin have proposed something a little
more moderate: that this varying speed of light might be
grounded in doubly special relativity. Amelino-Camelia's theory
that the speed of light depends on its energy doesn't require
the laws of physics to change, unlike Magueijo's original idea.
Light might have traveled vastly faster in the hot early
universe simply because its energy was so much higher then.
"That you could be comfortable with," says Smolin.

Real world. Well, maybe. Many physicists aren't ready to take
any of these ideas too seriously for now. But real-world tests
could change that. Amelino-Camelia and Magueijo can both point
to puzzling astrophysical observations that their theories may
be able to explain. Ultrahigh-energy cosmic rays that special
relativity says should never be able to make it to Earth--but
that have been showing up at cosmic-ray observatories in recent
years--might make sense in doubly special relativity. "For us to
be mentioned in astrophysics reviews as one of the possible
explanations--you have no idea what that means," says Amelino-
Camelia.

Similarly, though no one has reported a direct observation of
the speed of light changing over cosmic history, a tantalizing
hint comes from something called the fine-structure constant.
The fine-structure constant is a number that determines the size
of the energy jumps that atoms make when they absorb photons and
get excited, and it depends on c, among other things. For years
now, a team of astronomers led by John Webb of the University of
New South Wales, Australia, and his colleagues Victor Flambaum
and Michael Murphy have been compiling observations of how atoms
in gas clouds billions of light-years away absorb light. From
these observations they can calculate the value that the fine-
structure constant had billions of years ago and compare it with
measurements today. They find evidence that it has increased by
around a thousandth of a percent over the past 10 billion years.
If other researchers confirm the effect, a gradual decrease in c
will be a plausible explanation.

But perhaps the most direct evidence that something is amiss
with c could come from GLAST, an orbiting gamma-ray telescope
that NASA is planning to launch in 2006 or 2007. GLAST will
observe bursts of gamma rays--ultrahigh-energy light--from far-
off galaxies. If doubly special relativity is correct, the more
energetic gamma rays should travel faster and should tend to
arrive at the telescope first--by about a millisecond, Amelino-
Camelia says, after a billion-year race. That would be strong
evidence that Einstein was wrong. But also that he was pretty
darn close.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]








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   May > May 22

                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:31:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:54:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:05:45 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >Extraterrestrials are real and contact me very regularly. I
 >don't wish to make money or attract fame from the experiences. I
 >could give you 'concrete' proof but know that debunkers are now
 >so good at the art that the proof would never be good enough.
 >Reading and posting on this List was, is, and will be very
 >interesting because, as with many other areas of research, all
 >the answers, ifs, whys and maybes are not yet fully and
 >definately known. At least they are not to me and ET doesn't
 >seem to have all the answers either so it's put down to
 >friendship and cultural exchange. Believe it or not, some of
 >them have a very good sense of humour.

I guess I believe that if your proof we were really concrete,
then debunkers wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Of course, some
people will deny till the day they die, but if your proof is
really so strong, then most people will be convinced. What kind
of proof do you have? Because right now one of the best pieces
of evidence we have for the existence of aliens is the infamous
Alien Autopsy film, which is extremely suspect and near
impossible to verify one way or the other. The fact that the
film's backstory is so full of holes and contradictions surely
doesn't help to prove it's validity, that's for certain.

And while I respect that you're not out to make money from your
claimed experience, this is hardly proof that it happened. It
certainly puts you in a better light than someone like, say,
Billy Meier. But when it comes down to study this phenomena as a
science, a person's motives for making claims of
extraterrestrial encounters is mostly irrelevant - who knows why
people do and say the things they do? Just because someone isn't
making money or seeking celebrity doesn't automatically mean
what they're saying is true. The idea of the "sincere
eyewitness" - that since someone seems nice, comes from a good
background, doesn't drink, doesn't have a criminal record, is a
churchgoer, treats his/her kids well, upstanding citizen, etc.,
means they must be telling the truth is not really a good way of
proving anything. As I said, it puts the person in a better
light than someone who immediately jumps on the lecture circuit
and starts pushing videos, but without further evidence it
doesn't bring us further along to an answer of what really
happened.


Ian Rogers








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                     Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Oberg

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:01:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:57:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Oberg


 >From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:52:23 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler

 >But you must admit that you could have simply answered the
 >question _without_ impugning anything Ecker said by suggesting
 >he was just there to promote sale for his magazine.


I grant you that. Having just been impugned as being on the show
to lie to the public, I do admit a trace of pique. And perhaps a
cynical view that mention of the existence of a commercial
product - Don's magazine - might be construed to have some
commercial value, in front of a large and literate viewing
audience, might also have not been entirely off-the-wall.


Sigh...









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                    Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:04:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:06:47 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:46:34 -0700
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>Cydonian Imperative 5-19-03

 >>Martian "Cacti"?

 >>See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

 >>The new Face image isn't the only oddity greeting visitors to
 >>the USGS' labyrinthine file directory. Check out these apparent
 >>cactus-like formations:

<snip>

 >Hello Mac:

 >Those are indeed interesting looking features!

 >They look like objects extending upward from the crests of sand
 >dunes to me, but I'm not good at interpreting such images.

Hi Larry,

They may look like same dunes, but the 'dunes' are really
Martian polar ice accumulations. I'm not sure whether they are
carbon dioxide or water ice, but they are ice of some type, so
I'd expect the darker 'cactus-like growths' atop them to
possibly be wind-exposed crystalline growths of material that
froze into crystal at it rose (in a less solid form) up through
fissures from a warmer environment beneath the ice cap. The
wind-blown ice 'frost' would then tend to accumulate around them
just as the white sands of Padre Island accumulate along old
fence lines, making it look as though the old fence posts grew
out the tops of dunes.

I think we should be very cautious about interpreting those dark
'growths' as plants, even though they remind us of such. There
seem to me to be much more parsimonious possible explanations,
such as I propose, above.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                     Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:12:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:09:12 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:46:34 -0700
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >>Martian "Cacti"?

 >>See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page
 >38)

 >>The new Face image isn't the only oddity greeting visitors to
 >>the USGS' labyrinthine file directory. Check out these apparent
 >>cactus-like formations:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >>Unlike e_1701041.imq.jpg, I don't know where - if it all - this
 >>image can be found on Malin Space Science Systems' archive. Sun-
 >>angle information and other factors contained in the MSSS
 >>ancillary data would help establish what we are (or are not)
 >>seeing in this provocative image.

 >Those are indeed interesting looking features!

 >They look like objects extending upward from the crests of sand
 >dunes to me, but I'm not good at interpreting such images.

When it comes to relatively tiny, subtle objects like the
"cacti" (which is nothing more than a label), I've found it's
best to wait for the MGS ancillary data, which contains sun-
angle and other information. (I've been fooled before by small,
shadow-casting features; sometimes it's amazing what simply
rotating the image can reveal.)

Thankfully Malin Space Science Systems has a processed version
of the "cacti" on its own site (see link of page 38 of my Mars
site):

http://www.mactonnies.com/imperative38.html

- along with ancillary data, so maybe we can get a more educated
idea of what these are soon. About the only thing I know for
certain is that these are polar features, so we can expect the
"cacti" to be sitting on top of quite a bit of subsurface ice.
It's already been proposed that the spikes are actually geysers
(!). I personally find this doubtful, but not impossible.

 >If this weren't a USGS.gov webpage, I would strongly suspect
 >hoaxing, image manipulation etc.

So would I.

 >If anyone can get more info, it would be appreciated. At the
 >very least, what is the official word on such formations?

There _is_ no official word that I'm aware of. JPL keeps mum on
formations that look like possible plantlife. Arthur C. Clarke's
furious that JPL hasn't consented to comment on the "banyan
tree" formations yet.


=====

 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Transhumanism, esoterica, cyberpunk, UFOs, book reviews, fiction, more...

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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:33:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:04:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:01:23 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:11:55 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:17:08 -0500
 >>Subject: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >Mr. Fleming's work has had the positive effect of underscoring
 >the importance of getting more of my research results documented
 >and available to the UFO community and the public. In the last
 >few years I had prepared my presentation at Purdue on March 31,
 >1999, but when I sought a grant from the Fund for UFO Studies
 >(which funded Kasher's paper) and even CSICOP (which in turn
 >just asked _me_ for money), the lack of funding dissuaded me
 >from taking the time necessary to prepare an adequate report.

So not even CSICOP wants to waste money on another one of
Oberg's sham 'analyses'. Oberg's claim that he needs money only
serves to underscore his total ignorance of the relevant skills
and technology. All that's needed is a VCR, a PC, and a frame-
grabber application to transfer the video images from one device
to the other. Then, of course, you need a certain level of
competence that Oberg has shown he lacks.

 >Now I've also had Dr. Carlotto's new treatment (spring 2003)
 >'Analysis Of STS-48 Video', at:

 >http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Members/v02n02/b/index.shtml

 >brought to my attention, and it even further departs from
 >conclusions my research had reached. So maybe it's time to
 >prepare a paper that addresses Carlotto's assessments.

 >I probably should also see if there's anything in Fleming's
 >claims worth responding to, and as a first step, it would be
 >helpful to know what his qualifications, if any, are, and who -
 >if anyone besides Velez and Ecker - finds his arguments
 >persuasive. Could I have some help on this, please?

 >Some of my results will have to be fully documented, included my
 >assessment of the Orbiter attitude at sunrise, which differs
 >significantly from Carlotto. Since the sun rises about 45
 >degrees to the left of orbit track (the `beta angle'), and the
 >Orbiter's commanded attitude was left wing down, nose pitched
 >about 10 deg body axis down relative to pure out-of-plane left,
 >the Sun appears below the Orbiter nose, about 30 degrees down
 >below pure straight-ahead body axis (+X axis). This leaves a
 >substantial shadowed zone over the left wing, in the direction
 >that the aft-rt TV camera was pointed, and right where the DOT
 >appears as it moves away from the Orbiter and out of the shadow.
 >This is not proof it WAS a nearby object, but it allows for the
 >possibility that it was a shadow-to-sunlight object because the
 >shadow and sunlight are consistent with such a hypothesis.

 >Carlotto argues: "It is unlikely then that M1 is near the
 >shuttle since there is no known mechanism to otherwise explain
 >its appearance." I offer my hypothesis as refutation of this by-
 >elimination argument.

 >Carlotto further argues: "The brightness at a point in the image
 >is proportional to the total energy incident on the
 >corresponding detector element in the camera. If the angular
 >extent of M1 is much less than the resolution of the camera, it
 >could appear to increase gradually in brightness as it moves
 >from shadow to light due to a gradually increasing fraction of
 >its surface that is illuminated by the sun being summed by the
 >detector element. However, the object cannot move by more than
 >one pixel over the period of brightening (about 1 second) for
 >this phenomena to occur. Yet M1 moves 66.2 pixels in 8 seconds
 >or about 8 pixels per second. M1's is moving too fast for the
 >gradual brightening to occur as a result of this effect. M1 must
 >be further away."

 >The brightening over a period of one second is no problem at all
 >for a small nearby drifting object, despite Carlotto's inability
 >to imagine how it could happen. For an object over the Orbiter
 >left wing, moving up into sunlight, it is crossing the shadow-
 >edge about 30 feet from the structure casting the shadow (the
 >wing leading edge), and the angular size of the Sun (0.5 degree)
 >creates a gradation zone of brightness several inches thick. If
 >it takes the object one second to traverse that zone, it will
 >grow in brightness for that interval, exactly as Carlotto's
 >brightness measurements show the dot did.

 >Carlotto has the earned respect of many years of demonstrated
 >learning and publication of support for his interpretations. I
 >believe his claims deserve response.

 >I am unconvinced that Fleming falls into that category. Some
 >reasons for my feeling this way:

I am unconvinced that Oberg deserves respect in any category
except that of professional mud-slinger. To correct the false
impressions Oberg is trying to convey in his latest screed, I
have to point out that Mark Carlotto is a Ph.D., in computer
science, who makes his living working with digital image
analysis, and he was quite satisfied with my paper, which is why
he _published_ it in his online journal. Mr. Oberg, on the other
hand, is clearly incompetent in such analyses and doesn't seem
to know how to write technical papers.

 >Fleming: "The demonstrable facts are that the flash of light in
 >the STS-48 video was lens flare unrelated to any rocket firing
 >(as shown in the NFS paper) and that time stamps are, in
 >nontechnical terms, phony." Since Fleming doesn't seem to know
 >the difference between a fact and a proposed conclusion, I have
 >little confidence in his ability to reason accurately.

The above suggests that Oberg doesn't know the difference
between a conclusion _compelled_ by the evidence, which he
pretends not to notice, and the conclusions based on corrupted
data that he peddles as "proof" of what he wants people to
believe. It's amusing that Oberg presumes to judge the quality
of my analysis while he shows no indication that he comprehends
any of it.

 >If Fleming is truly puzzled by the behavior of the displayed
 >timer, I can only suggest - he doesn't appear to have thought of
 >it - that he ask for an explanation at NASA. Instead, he leaps
 >to 'facts' that are pretty fantastic, IMHO.

The facts that Oberg is trying to obfuscate are that the tape
shows the time stamps continue for six seconds after loss of the
video signal and that once the signal is reacquired, the time
stamps are out of synchronization with the video by over a
minute for a period of almost one second. That proves the time
stamps shown on the tape were added to the video at some later
date. Telemetry data cannot be downlinked after the telemetry
signal is lost, so the time stamps are not telemetry data. The
correct time may well have been encoded in the video telemetry,
but that is _not_ what's on the tape.

As for getting answers from Oberg's friends at NASA, there's not
much chance of getting _straight_ answers if they're anything
like Oberg. The answers are likely to be as phony as these time
stamps. I think eventually we'll get honest answers and the
unadulterated data out of NASA, but I'm afraid it might take a
few lawyers to extract them.









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                      Re: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:25:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:14:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:28:24 -0400
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >>Martian "Cacti"?

 >>See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

 >Yes, I know that Coast to Coast AM is suspect, but in November
 >2002, a guest named Stewart Best had some Mars "city" photos,
 >supposedly from NASA data (possibly downloaded privately in
 >Spain?) posted.

 >I don't know if they are available on the new Coast to Coast AM
 >site, but I saved them to my site, but non-publicly, meaning
 >there is no clickable way to get from my cover page to these
 >photos, and they are not spidered by search engine 'bots. You
 >need the exact path to find them, which is:

 >http://www.raven1.net/tithonia.htm

 >Do you, Mac, or does anyone have information as to the validity
 >of these images? Has anyone heard of Stewart Best? What do you
 >think of his work? He seems to be another Richard Hoagland
 >type.

I don't know who Stewart Best is, but it is obvious from what we
see at the link Eleanor White kindly provided us, that he has
one hell of an over-active imagination!

Enlarging images until one is looking at immensely enlarged
pixels (and pixel groups of similar density values) is no way to
determine what's really shown in an image! Whomever Stewart
Best is, he's clearly a dreamer, to put it very politely.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles." --
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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                       Re: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:16:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies


 >From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:28:24 -0400
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >http://www.raven1.net/tithonia.htm

 >Do you, Mac, or does anyone have information as to the validity
 >of these images? Has anyone heard of Stewart Best? What do you
 >think of his work?

My opinion? Complete baloney. The images are _way_ below
threshold of resolution. It would take an hour to enumerate the
things wrong with this attempt at exo-archaeology.

 >He seems to be another Richard Hoagland >type.

Hoagland, for all of his stagemanship, is much smarter
than this.



=====
 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Transhumanism, esoterica, cyberpunk, UFOs, book reviews, fiction, more...

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                   Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:36:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:18:48 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1 - Ledger


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:58:47 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:54:01 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:25 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs 101 Answer - Case #1

 ><snip>

 >>>One specific issue I'd like to discuss is... why do UFOs have
 >>>lights?

 >>How about anti-collision lights? Perhaps one of several reasons
 >>such as a by-product [glowing UFOs] of whatever the heck powers
 >>these things.

 >Maybe that's why there are so many UFO crashes, perhaps? The
 >lack of anti-collision lights on some craft? To me that's a
 >better explanation than the idea that our radar somehow disrupts
 >their flight systems.


I've never given any credibility to radar as the culprit in the
so-called UFO crashes. A few crashes might have occurred [not
from raradr] but I also don't adhere to the idea that there are
a lot of crashes either. Radar is all over the place now and if
there was some advanced intelligence sharing our skies, it would
seem unlikely that they would not have radar or understand the
principle of it-or be able to counteract it in some way.

Anti-collision lights would be more advantages to our aircraft
than theirs, however IFR pilots tend to spend their time with
the heads stuck inside their cockpits than out, particularly on
climb-out and on approach, both in the dark and during
penetration into or out of cloud. Once leveled out at altitde,
enroute and usually above the weather they have more time for
looking around.

I wonder though that their might not be some microwave byproduct
coming from this phenomenon. I've noted a a lot of ambiguous
triggerings of TCAS/ACAS systems aboard aircraft with no
apparent traffic in the area to contribute to this. That doesn't
rule out other sources such as military radar or over the
horizon radar from causing this since it is a microwave based
system. It's supposed to key off the Transponder microwave
emissions coming from any aircraft within an approximate 5 mile
radius of the TCAS equipped aircraft.

On the West Coast of the US and Canada there has been an ongoing
problem with GPW, Ground Proximity Warning systems triggering
while the aircraft were well clear of the terrain. This could be
some abberation created by reflection off the mountainous
terrain but there are also a great many UFO reports from that
area as well.


Don Ledger







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                          Secrecy News -- 05/22/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:24:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:20:42 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/22/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 44
May 22, 2003


**      NSA FOIA EXEMPTION AMENDED
**      HOMELAND SECURITY VS. DISSENT
**      TEETS ON THOMPSON ON NRO
**      DECLASSIFY THE 9/11 REPORT
**      REPORTS ON TIA, PATRIOT ACT
**      A HARDLINE LOOK AT LEAKS
**      DUBIOUS SECRETS


NSA FOIA EXEMPTION AMENDED

The Senate adopted an amendment on May 21 to narrow the proposed
exemption from the Freedom of Information Act for "operational
files" of the National Security Agency that document the
technical means by which the Agency collects intelligence.

The amendment, offered by Senator Wayne Allard (R-CO), responded
directly to some of the concerns voiced by FOIA advocates at a
closed briefing on May 20.

Specifically, the amendment limits the scope of the new
exemption to files held in the Signals Intelligence Directorate
and the Research Associate Directorate of the NSA.  It dictates
that files that have been accessioned into the NSA archives are
not operational files and must be searched and reviewed under
FOIA.  And it states that records do not become exempted
operational files merely because they contain information
derived from operational files.

The May 20 Senate Armed Services Committee briefing was chaired
by Senator Allard and attended by Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) and
Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY).  Each asked probing and
intelligent questions aimed at clarifying the matter.  Critics
of the proposed exemption were represented by Meredith Fuchs of
the National Security Archive and myself.  The NSA was
represented by NSA chief of staff Adm. Alexander A. Miller and
NSA General Counsel Mr. Vito T. Potenza.

The text of the amended NSA FOIA exemption, adopted in the
Senate version of the FY 2004 defense authorization act, is
posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2003/s052103.html

Alternate (unrevised) versions of the exemption still appear in
the Senate version of the 2004 Intelligence Authorization Act
(section 501 of S. 1025) and in the House version of the 2004
Defense Authorization Act (section 1050 of H.R. 1588).


HOMELAND SECURITY VS. DISSENT

The growing mobilization of intelligence and law enforcement
resources in the service of "homeland security" is spilling over
into constitutionally protected domains of dissent, eroding the
hitherto clear distinction between anti-government protests and
suspected terrorism.

Thus, the California Anti-Terrorism Information Center (CATIC),
"touted as a national model for intelligence sharing, ... has
quietly gathered and analyzed information on activists of
various stripes almost since its creation," according to a
remarkable report in the Oakland Tribune.

Last month, the anti-terrorist CATIC warned police of potential
violence at an anti-war rally at the Port of Oakland.  CATIC
officials insisted that their warning was appropriate, and
within their charter.

"I've heard terrorism described as anything that is violent or
has an economic impact, and shutting down a port certainly would
have some economic impact," CATIC spokesman Mike Van Winkle told
the Tribune. "Terrorism isn't just bombs going off and killing
people."

See "State monitored war protesters" by Ian Hoffman, Sean
Holstege and Josh Richman, Oakland Tribune, May 18:

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~1400012,00.html

"In the 20 months since Sept. 11, 2001, little-known government
and commercial databases that track the movements and
backgrounds of everyday Americans have steadily ballooned,"
according to the Wall Street Journal ("Data Collection Is Up
Sharply Following 9/11" by Ann Davis, WSJ, May 22, p. B1).


TEETS ON THOMPSON ON NRO

Last year, aerospace executive David Thompson delivered a
blistering attack on the performance of the National
Reconnaissance Office, which builds and operates the nation's
spy satellites.  Mr. Thompson's speech, presented at the
National Space Symposium in April 2002, alluded to previously
unreported NRO technical disasters and mission failures that
consumed billions of dollars. The speech is remarkable for its
undisguised vitriol as well as its startling disclosures:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/thompson.html

But the other shoe never dropped.  Mr. Thompson rebuffed
requests for follow-on interviews, and information that would
confirm or flesh out (or refute) his revelations was never
declassified and released.

Last month, however, NRO director Peter Teets spoke at the very
same forum and acknowledged Mr. Thompson's criticisms in general
terms.

"Through undisclosed sources and methods," Mr. Teets joked, "I
got wind that this group was going to invite David back for a
re-run, so I quickly volunteered to be your speaker tonight!"

"Frankly, I did have the opportunity to read David's speech.
While it may have been a bit uncomplimentary, I read it in the
spirit that there may be a grain of truth there."

"We spent some time at a recent CEO conference talking through
some of his points. We always look for ways to improve our
operations because we are certainly a learning organization."

So there.  Mr. Teets April 8 speech is posted on the NRO web
site here:

http://www.nro.gov/PressReleases/prs_rel68.html


DECLASSIFY THE 9/11 REPORT

Several members of the congressional joint inquiry into
September 11 distanced themselves from Senator Bob Graham's
claim that the Bush Administration was engaged in a "cover up"
of events leading up to the terrorist attack.  But even they
expressed frustration with the Administration's continuing
failure to release the inquiry's final report in unclassified
form.

See "Graham 9/11 Coverup Claim Lacks Proof" by Keith Epstein,
Tampa Tribune, May 18:

http://tampatrib.com/nationworldnews/MGAWJ2HHUFD.html

It is time to release the report, the Los Angeles Times
editorialized May 21.  See "Declassify the 9/11 Report":

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-
commission21may21,1,4488837.st ory

"Excessive administration secrecy ... feeds conspiracy theories
and reduces the public's confidence in government," said Sen.
John McCain (R-AZ), testifying today at a public hearing of the
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States,
as reported by the Associated Press.


REPORTS ON TIA, PATRIOT ACT

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) released
its congressionally-mandated report on the Total Information
Awareness program, now re-designated the Terrorist Information
Awareness program. The May 20 report is available here:

http://www.darpa.mil/body/tia/tia_report_page.htm

The Justice Department last week provided congressional
overseers with new information concerning its implementation of
the USA Patriot Act. See this May 20 release from the House
Judiciary Committee:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/news052003.htm


A HARDLINE LOOK AT LEAKS

"The National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) has experienced
roughly a hundred leaks [of classified information] just since
2000 that have damaged US imagery collection effectiveness.
  Many dozens of leaks on the activities and programs of the
National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) have also helped foreign
adversaries develop countermeasures to spaceborne collection
operations.  DIA and the military services, too, have suffered
collection losses as a result of media leaks."

So writes James B. Bruce, Vice Chairman of something called the
DCI Foreign Denial and Deception Committee, in an unusually
uncompromising article about unauthorized disclosures of
classified information in the latest unclassified issue of the
CIA journal Studies in Intelligence.

Contending that "the problem is worse now than ever before," Mr.
Bruce calls for stiff new penalties to crack down on leaks,
including prosecutions of journalists that publish classified
information.  "We need to try remedies that have not been tried
before," he says.

Mr. Bruce does not recognize any tension between national
security interests and a free press.  The requirements of
national security as embodied in the classification system are
always correct and they are always paramount, he says, and
that's that.

It follows that "media representatives should be held
responsible for publicizing intelligence information -- thus,
making it available to terrorists and other US adversaries --
  that they know to be classified."

"Journalists should also be held responsible under present
criminal statutes for unlawful possession of classified
documents when they have them," he writes.

Oh, and the same thing goes for "writers, publishing companies,
media networks, and web sites that traffic in classified
information."

"The view that leaks are harmless is ... nourished by ...
popular myths that the government over-classifies everything --
  including intelligence -- and classifies way too much," Mr.
Bruce writes. "This seduction has become a creed among
uncleared, anti-secrecy proponents."

See "The Consequences of Permissive Neglect:  Laws and Leaks of
Classified Intelligence" by James B. Bruce, Studies in
Intelligence, vol. 47, no. 1, 2003:

http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/vol47no1/article04.html

While Mr. Bruce considers over-classification to be a myth
fostered by outside activists, an increasing number of cleared
insiders have reached an opposite conclusion.

"So many government documents are being stamped 'Top Secret,'
'Secret' or 'Confidential' these days that even lawmakers with
access to classified materials complain the process has gotten
out of hand," reports Chuck McCutcheon of Newhouse News.

See "Lawmakers Take Aim at Excessive Government Secrecy," May 20:

http://www.newhouse.com/archive/mccutcheon052003.html


DUBIOUS SECRETS

Though some blinkered officials would deny it, there is no
shortage of arbitrary, idiotic or obsolete secrets that are
nevertheless classified in the name of national security.

"The Central Intelligence Agency classified and withheld from a
Freedom of Information Act release a 25-year-old joke item in a
weekly terrorism report about the terrorist threat to Santa
Claus and the North Pole," the National Security Archive noted
in a fascinating new collection of "Dubious Secrets."  See:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB90/press.htm



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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               Eight Fingered Aliens [was: Re: Alleged Russian

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:40:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:26:15 -0400
Subject: Eight Fingered Aliens [was: Re: Alleged Russian


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:05:45 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 ><snip

 >What we need are more and better hypothesis to test and
 >better methodology to test them.

List, what we need is more evidence (yielding reliable data)
around which to construct better hypotheses, and although Colin
alleges he has regular contact with his abductors, he seems
totally uninterested in getting any kind of real evidence,
thereof. In fact, one might just get the idea that, deep-down
within, he knows there could not be any evidence, and that at
some level he realizes 'they' are figments of his imagination.

So now, Listers, sorry, but I cannot resist:

Colin, your statement that you were abducted by advanced beings
with eight fingers makes no evolutionary sense! Such large
numbers of digits began disappearing early in evolution of
terrestrial life when things were emerging from the sea. In
terrestrial (as contrasts with aquatic) vertebrate organisms,
digits rather quickly reduced in number because once life got
beyond the aquatic stage, such large numbers of digits were a
hindrance rather than a help (as in swimming), and they tend
toward non-survival rather that survival.

You seem to allege that your abductors are bipedal and
vertebrate. Well no matter on what planet life evolves, the
basic laws of practicality would still be in force. If an
organism can do take care of life's needs with less digits,
unneeded digits recede. For bipedal organisms living in a
gaseous (e.g., air) environment, I cannot think of any practical
use for eight fingers - at least not mentionable on this List :)
- other than to suppose your abductors have eight nostrils from
which they need to simultaneously pick 'boogers' out of each! :)

 >Extraterrestrials are real and contact me very regularly.

Hey, Colin! If you cannot manage a movie at least during the
beginning of one of these frequent visits by those eight-digit
evolutionary drop-outs, I suggest you at least ask them for some
of those spare 'boogers' as hard evidence (complete with DNA),
for which seeming cause they retain all those fingers to
facilitate some as-yet-not-understood need for simultaneous
eight-nostril 'booger' harvest. Perhaps they have a lot of nasal
allergies! :)

Give us a break (or at least get us a 'booger'), Colin!

Heck! Failing that (if you're a little squeamish about picking
up ET 'boogers' or if they don't really have eight nostrils),
objective skeptics might let you off easily: We'd probably all
like to see even just one single fingerprint from any one of
those sixteen total fingers!

Seriously, now, Colin, there must be at least one fingerprint
around somewhere,if your visitors are not a figment of your
imagination.

How so?

If their environment and (or) their manual tasks are so slippery
that they need eight fingers on each hand to hold onto things,
they surely have retained the kind of patterns that produce
fingerprints, because the function of those patterns is both
adhesive traction and to provide a sense of touch.

When those evolutionary drop-outs get a professional manicure,
it surely must get expensive! Or, do they just bite their nails
(if they have any), perhaps out of nervous fear that one of
their abductees or contactees will get one of their many
fingerprints? :)


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." - Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Dabrowski

From: Andrew Dabrowski <dabrowsa@indiana.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:48:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:28:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Dabrowski


 >From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:52:23 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:35:04 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>>From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:00:13 -0700
 >>>Subject: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >><snip>

 >>>(In a humorous moment when I was on Larry King Live
 >>debating >Jim Oberg on the STS-48 shuttle UFO, Oberg accused
 >>me of >coming on the program to sell magazines when I asked
 >>him if he >was operating under any security restrictions.
 >>The "ad hominem attack!)

 >><snip>

 >>Humorous indeed that Don should post the transcript of that
 >>very show, where somebody reading it can see that Don's
 >>_claim_ of what I 'accused' was a bit garbled. I said,
 >>truthfully, that "I'm not here as editor of a magazine trying
 >>to sell subscriptions," and I forthrightly answered his
 >>question to me about security restrictions (there were none)
 >>- a fact that he seems to have carelessly left out of his
 >>presumably honest-intentioned but demonstrably distorted
 >>recounting of the conversation.

 >But you must admit that you could have simply answered the
 >question _without_ impugning anything Ecker said by suggesting
 >he was just there to promote sale for his magazine.

 >That is the trouble with ufology... or, as Jim Moseley calls it,
 >ufoology. Instead of having civil conversations, people seem
 >compelled to engage in snide digs and outright attacks. If there
 >was just one thing we could do to improve methodology in the
 >field, a refusal to engage in that kind of exchange would be a
 >major step forward.

Agreed. And the problem isn't limited to debates between
skeptics and believers. Even arguments between believers almost
invariably turn quickly to name-calling and accusations (e.g. of
working for the CIA).


Andrew Dabrowski







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                           Re: Swamp Gas - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:30:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:31:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Swamp Gas - Connors


 >From: Gord Heath <gwheath@shaw.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:54:29 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Swamp Gas

 >>From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:55:51 -0600
 >>Subject: Swamp Gas

 >Hi Wendy,

 >_This_ would certainly put a lot of UFO history on its head. I
 >most certainly look forward to the information you have
 >uncovered about this.

Thank you. The audio clips I will be presenting will give a good
general background of the Dexter/Hillsdale/Ann Arbor events and
what Dr. Hynek actually said. It should be a lot of fun for
everyone.

 >I still remember when the Colorado study findings were
 >broadcast. I remember how it felt a little like hearing the
 >findings of the Warren Commission on the JFK assassination. I
 >also vaguely recall the controversy which was created by Hynek's
 >comments about the Michigan sightings as possibly originating
 >from swamp gas. It seems now so ironic in that people are so
 >willing to accept any explanation for each and every sighting.
 >Were people actually more open-minded and capable of critical
 >thinking back then?

I think they were generally. Here are several reasons I believe
this to be fundamentally true. Today, according to U.S. Census
Bureau statistical analysis, one out of 6 people are
functionally illiterate. From 1947 to 1969 only 1 person in 12
was functionally illiterate. Also, during this same period,
people read more and television presented in-depth analysis
instead of the 10 second sound-bite prevelent in todays news
media.

 >By the way, thank you very, very much for your kindness in
 >sending me your very interesting history of Ruppelt along with
 >the recordings of Frank Edwards. I am pleased there are still
 >people out there who are trying to record the real history of
 >that time with respect to the UFO phenomenom. I'm sure you
 >realize that back then, it all seemed so new and we were just
 >starting our own exploration of the aerospace above our planet
 >and obviously quite surprised to find out it was already
 >occupied.

It was a pleasure to send you the materials and I greatly
appreciated the materials you sent me. Also, thank you for the
kind words and generous support for my work on the Faded Discs
Project. You are absolutely correct. The science of Ufology is
still in its embryonic stage. All current accepted sciences took
hundreds of years to reach their current status and even those
sciences had their querks, charltans and ding bats running
around from the beginning. Thus, it is no different in Ufology
today. All sciences were built from their histories.


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs Project









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                    'Strange... Days Indeed' Archive Adds

From: Errol Bruce-Knapp <sdi@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:53:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:55:23 -0400
Subject: 'Strange... Days Indeed' Archive Adds


Two new .ra files have been added to the 'Strange days... Indeed'
program Archive at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/sdi2003.html

and at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/

The interviews with Stan Romanek & McGill University Associate
Professor Don Donderi.

The Stan Romanek is a two-parter, each slightly over 7 MBs.

Dr Donderi contributed a chapter to UFOs & Abductions:
Challenging The Borders Of Knowledge [Kansas University Press].
This file is 7 MBs.

The A.J. Geveard and latest Stanton Friedman interviews will be
archived within the next few days.....


Errol Bruce-Knapp

Host/Producer
'Strange Days... Indeed'
NewsTalk 1010 CFRB - Toronto
CJAD 800 Montreal







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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:09:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:16:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -



 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:33:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: roof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m22-025.shtml

 >As for getting answers from Oberg's friends at NASA, there's not
 >much chance of getting _straight_ answers if they're anything
 >like Oberg. The answers are likely to be as phony as these time
 >stamps. I think eventually we'll get honest answers and the
 >unadulterated data out of NASA, but I'm afraid it might take a
 >few lawyers to extract them.

I think that people who are serious about investigating any
subject realize that one seeks out expertise where it resides,
and later may speculate on its completeness or honesty - no
serious researcher, IMHO, decides in advance to avoid
information sources because of prejudice. But it is noticeable
that Fleming continues to pretend there are no primary witnesses
to the events he pretends to be investigating - unless he
decides in advance that they are all liars..

I would like to hear from Dr. Carlotto himself that he finds
Fleming's conclusions persuasive. Mark, can you weigh in here?







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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:21:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:18:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:33:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: roof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!


 >The facts that Oberg is trying to obfuscate are that the tape
 >shows the time stamps continue for six seconds after loss of the
 >video signal and that once the signal is reacquired, the time
 >stamps are out of synchronization with the video by over a
 >minute for a period of almost one second. That proves the time
 >stamps shown on the tape were added to the video at some later
 >date. Telemetry data cannot be downlinked after the telemetry
 >signal is lost, so the time stamps are not telemetry data. The
 >correct time may well have been encoded in the video telemetry,
 >but that is _not_ what's on the tape.

Because I'm interested in real facts and not imaginary evidence,
I double-checked with a few old INCO buddies (does Mr. Fleming
know what that means?) today and asked them about the displayed
time tag at AOS/LOS. They got good chuckles out of the
delusionally imaginary explanations that Fleming demands
everybody believe, and saw no technical strangeness with the
behavior of the videtape time tags as described in Mr. Fleming's
essay. As long as Mr. Fleming is determined to NEVER ask the
professional engineers and operators (included those retired)
about this topic, his interpretations of what he thinks he sees
in the videos will continue to be howlingly lost in space.








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                             Cold Fusion Debate

From: Terry Blanton <blantont@rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:32:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:20:48 -0400
Subject: Cold Fusion Debate



Since Jed Rothwell of  Cold Fusion Advocates has established his
cold fusion site,

http://lenr-canr.org/

(Low Energy Nuclear Reactions - Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions)

it has seen over 110,000 downloads of the scientific papers from
the site.  I write the list today to call your attention to an
ongoing exchange between Jed and the editor of Scientific
American magazine, Dr. Jonathan Piel.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/AppealandSciAm.pdf

This exchange is the result of a recent article in SciAm
ridiculing cold fusion.  I trust UFO researchers will find the
discussion somewhat familiar.


Regards,

Terry







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                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:52:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:23:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Friedman


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:31:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:05:45 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>>>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>Extraterrestrials are real and contact me very regularly. I
 >>don't wish to make money or attract fame from the experiences. I
 >>could give you 'concrete' proof but know that debunkers are now
 >>so good at the art that the proof would never be good enough.
 >>Reading and posting on this List was, is, and will be very
 >>interesting because, as with many other areas of research, all
 >>the answers, ifs, whys and maybes are not yet fully and
 >>definately known. At least they are not to me and ET doesn't
 >>seem to have all the answers either so it's put down to
 >>friendship and cultural exchange. Believe it or not, some of
 >>them have a very good sense of humour.

 >I guess I believe that if your proof we were really concrete,
 >then debunkers wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Of course, some
 >people will deny till the day they die, but if your proof is
 >really so strong, then most people will be convinced. What kind
 >of proof do you have? Because right now one of the best pieces
 >of evidence we have for the existence of aliens is the infamous
 >Alien Autopsy film, which is extremely suspect and near
 >impossible to verify one way or the other. The fact that the
 >film's backstory is so full of holes and contradictions surely
 >doesn't help to prove it's validity, that's for certain.

 >And while I respect that you're not out to make money from your
 >claimed experience, this is hardly proof that it happened. It
 >certainly puts you in a better light than someone like, say,
 >Billy Meier. But when it comes down to study this phenomena as a
 >science, a person's motives for making claims of
 >extraterrestrial encounters is mostly irrelevant - who knows why
 >people do and say the things they do? Just because someone isn't
 >making money or seeking celebrity doesn't automatically mean
 >what they're saying is true. The idea of the "sincere
 >eyewitness" - that since someone seems nice, comes from a good
 >background, doesn't drink, doesn't have a criminal record, is a
 >churchgoer, treats his/her kids well, upstanding citizen, etc.,
 >means they must be telling the truth is not really a good way of
 >proving anything. As I said, it puts the person in a better
 >light than someone who immediately jumps on the lecture circuit
 >and starts pushing videos, but without further evidence it
 >doesn't bring us further along to an answer of what really
 >happened.


Where in the world does the crazy idea originate that the alien
autopsy footage is the best evidence we have for ET visitation?
I have a whole chapter on it in my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC. My
conclusion is very negative and I am in the Fox film! And yes, I
met with Santilli twice etc etc. Except for Ed Gehrman, who else
on this List agrees with that viewpoint?

Ian, I surely wish you would be specific about who believes what
rather than filling us with your generalizations without
providing any evidence to support them or specifics as to just
who believes what...


Stan Friedman

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html








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                     Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Ecker

From: Don Ecker <decker1@attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:56:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:28:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Ecker


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:01:08 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:52:23 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler

 >>But you must admit that you could have simply answered the
 >>question _without_ impugning anything Ecker said by suggesting
 >>he was just there to promote sale for his magazine.

 >I grant you that. Having just been impugned as being on the show
 >to lie to the public, I do admit a trace of pique. And perhaps a
 >cynical view that mention of the existence of a commercial
 >product - Don's magazine - might be construed to have some
 >commercial value, in front of a large and literate viewing
 >audience, might also have not been entirely off-the-wall.

 >Sigh...


To all.

The fact of the matter is very simple.

Jim Oberg went on Larry King Live because I gave them his name
to be the counter-point on that broadcast. (STS-48) I first
suggested Klass but he passed.

And I would just love to know where I impugned Jim Oberg as a
"liar?" And yes, at that time I was one of the owners of UFO
Magazine. So what? The subject was UFOs, I came up with the tape
that King showed and then came up with Obergs name and telephone
number so they could call him.

Good God, the "ad hominem" assaults never do cease.

Sigh.....


***********************************
Thought for the day.

What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth ? Well ... judging
from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a
common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine
www.ufomag.com







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                    Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:04:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:32:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:01:08 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:52:23 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler

 >>But you must admit that you could have simply answered the
 >>question _without_ impugning anything Ecker said by
 >suggesting >he was just there to promote sale for his magazine.

 >I grant you that. Having just been impugned as being on the
 >show to lie to the public, I do admit a trace of pique. And
 >perhaps a cynical view that mention of the existence of a
 >commercial product - Don's magazine - might be construed to
 >have some commercial value, in front of a large and literate
 >viewing audience, might also have not been entirely off-the-wall.

 >Sigh...

Point well taken, James. But surely in a field as contested as
this one, and given your own career connections, you aren't
surprised when people question what you know and what you're
per- mitted to say about what you know?

As for Don, too, having an agenda, and you pointing that out to
the audience, I suppose it makes sense if it was Don plugging
his magazine rather than the show's host mentioning it. Hard to
tell, from the info you both have posted here.

And as long as I'm shooting off my mouth, allow me pipe in with
my own 2 cents about the esteemed Mr. Klass. And that is only to
say that he really let me down. At a time in my life when I
desperately wanted him to make sense, when I was primed and
ready for him to make sense... he just didn't. It was such a
disappointment. I have read some really intelligent skeptical
arguments, and they are a delight indeed. But as with too much
of the pro-UFO stuff, the really intelligent stuff from the
skeptical side of the aisle is pretty rare.


Brenda







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             Re: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:55:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:41:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:55:20 -0500
 >Subject: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48

 >I am grateful to Mr. Fleming's messages which made me aware of
 >new work by Carlotto (I'm judging it to be new because it's
 >dated recently -- unless that's an artifact of the website
 >design) on the STS-48 video controversy. This gave me a chance
 >to visit some of the key arguments and determine whether or not
 >they were mathematically and physically credible. Here's one of
 >the biggest cases, I believe, in which an argument fails that
 >requirement.

That is truly laughable. If Oberg really had examined Mark's
paper as he claims, he would have noticed that it was published
in the Journal of Scientific Exploration in 1995, _eight_ years
ago. Mark posted it on the NFS site to provide the background
information to my article. Oberg's "examination" is mostly a
rehashing of stuff he wrote years ago attacking Carlotto. It
seems that Oberg is renewing his old attacks only to worm his
way out of dealing with the new, and quite devastating, evidence
against his pet theory: the dubious nature of the video time
stamps and the strong evidence that the light flash was lens
flare and not a rocket exhaust "plume."

 >Page: Did the Shuttle Fire a Thruster?

 >http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Members/v02n02/b/Text06.shtml

 >"The graphic below plots the average brightness of the video
 >frame as a function of time along with the direction of motion
 >of one of the stars M2 in radians. Following the jump in
 >brightness, purportedly due to the thruster firing, there is no
 >significant change in the direction of M2. Yet the apparent
 >motion of all objects including the star must change if the
 >attitude of the spacecraft was altered by the thruster. The lack
 >of any change in attitude following the flash implies the flash
 >was not due to a thruster firing. "

 >JimO notes that M2 direction is scaled 0 to 6 radians (radian =
 >approx 57 degrees), i.e, practically the entire circle.

 >Time is 10 to 40 seconds, with the "average brightness of the
 >video frame" occurring between 18 and 23 seconds -- since the
 >visual pulse occurred in a one-second period and the thruster
 >firing was on that same timescale, I don't know how to place it
 >on Carlotto's graph. Carlotto gives to translation to GMT or any
 >other external timekeeping for his time-zero point.

No competent engineer or scientist would make a big deal about
an arbitrary time reference frame chosen for clarity in a graph
presented in a scientific paper.

 >Regarding the issue of induced rotation rate due to a thruster
 >firing, already in 1999 I had posted this comment at:

 >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=50&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=5
1&selm=19991101180303.13748.00001088%40ng-fw1.aol.com

 >"Evidence has been posted for YEARS that the jet firing seen on
 >the STS-48 video sequence, thruster L5D, 1.2 seconds, thrust 24
 >pounds -- twenty four -- changes the rotation rate of the
 >250,000 lb orbiter by about 0.01 degrees/second -- that's one
 >hundredth of a degree per second. If you can detect THAT tiny
 >rate on the video, you're seeing things."

 >This is also documented on STS-48 data plots shown at:

 >http://www.igs.net/~hwt/zigzag.html

 >Now, if the prosaic hypothesis for the dots and their motion
 >involves a rotation rate change of 0.01 degrees per second, why
 >does Carlotto plot the 20 seconds or so of post-change motion
 >(that would amount to no more than a few tenths of a degree) on
 >a scale with units in RADIANS, each Y-axis scale mark more than
 >one HUNDRED times bigger than the maximum expected angular
 >change? Of course the motion induced by the thruster -- if that
 >hypothesis is indeed correct -- would be undetectable on such a
 >graph -- from Carlotto's choice of the scale.

Oberg has apparently been immersed in the practice of the
pseudoscience of anti-Ufology, as Stanton Friedman correctly
describes it, for so long that he no longer knows how to read a
graph. Had Oberg examined the graph a little more closely, he
would have noticed that the vertical axis is labeled
_direction_.  The graph shows a plot of the direction of motion
of the star, _not_ its position. The angular velocities of the
stars in the video are around .05 degrees per second, varying
with position. (Oberg would have had to do a real analysis
rather than his sham analysis to find out the angular rates of
stars in the video). An angular velocity increment of .01
degrees per second in a direction 90 degrees from the original
direction of motion would produce a change in _direction_ of 14
degrees, or 0.24 radians. Carlotto's choice of scale  was
completely appropriate.

There are, as Oberg points out correctly (for a change),
unresolved questions about the changes in magnitude and
direction of the objects' motions that would be caused by a
rocket firing. But they're irrelevant since there is (1) _zero_
evidence of a rocket firing in the video, (2) compelling
evidence that the light flash was an intensification of the pre-
existing lens flare, and (3) compelling evidence that the time
stamps are invalid, despite Oberg's furious and transparently
dishonest attempts to evade these facts.






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                     Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Kelly

From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:46:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Kelly


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:51:33 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >My concern is with low energy nuclear physics, not >the very
 >very high energy Higgs Boson, if it exists. Google had 40,000
 >hits on the Higgs Boson. But Leon Lederman got his 1/3 of a
 >Nobel Prize in l988 "for the neutrino beam method and the
 >demonstration of the doublet structure of the leptons through
 >the discovery of the muon neutrino". So far as I can tell,
 >nobody has yet discovered the Higgs Boson.

Stanton,

Thank you very much indeed for your accurate, concise and useful
explanation. Now I can search the Internet for details without
wasting time wandering down blind trails.

Again, most sincere thanks,


Ken Kelly







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                      First Picture Of Earth From Mars

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:44:50 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:47:48 -0400
Subject: First Picture Of Earth From Mars



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030522_earthmars.html








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                       Photos Of Azerbaijan UFO Online

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:06:57 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:49:33 -0400
Subject: Photos Of Azerbaijan UFO Online


Bakutoday.net - Independent Online Newspaper

http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=4562

Changed:12:51 AM on Friday, May 23, 2003







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                         Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:19:09 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:55:33 -0400
Subject: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?


At the following link to an article about a UFO seen in
Azerbaijan, that was seen by many people and captured on video, a
photo of Ed's UFO is displayed.

I _assume_ they just used his pic and this is not a photo of the
UFO seen over there, which would be quite significant.

Could Bruce or someone else confirm that this pic has been
"taken" from Ed and Bruce? The telephone pole and trees should
prove this one way or another.

(Sorry, Bruce, I don't have your book although I have seen the
photos in the past.)


--Chaz

Link:

Bakutoday.net - Independent Online Newspaper

http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=1783







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              Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:21:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:01:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Hebert


 >From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:29:13 EDT
 >Subject: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien

 >Amy,

 >Following your statements about alleged UFO photos and videos,
 >rods, IFOs etc. I found in my archives that in 1995-96 you
 >conducted and published an investigation under the name of:
 >"Alien Convention ". A case of alleged alien encounter and
 >abduction involving a family and a neighbor and most important
 >with photographic evidence.

<snip>

Wow! I forgot all about that old web site! What a trip down memory
lane.

Anyone remember old Doc Berry? Just came across a little
memorial I made for him on this old site when I found out he had
died on January 13, 1999:

http://thevanguard.tripod.com/dbm.html

I clicked on his page and heard one of his favorite songs,
"Crazy", and started crying. I'm sure all the ladies who knew
him will never forget the sweet, sweet Valentine's he sent out
to all of his internet honeys every Valentine's Day. He would
have loved my current work. Doc was the ultimate gentleman. Sure
do miss that old fart.

So in honor of Doc, I hereby award Santiago Yturria the "Doc
Barry Bovine Excrement Award"!

(Watch out for the volume change!! Don't know how to fix it.)

http://thevanguard.tripod.com/award.html

Congratulations, Santiago.

Who Loves Ya, Baby?

As for this old case Santiago is trying to dredge up, I closed
this site years ago. I think we all have those "early days" when
we were naive and had much to learn. I'm sure I could dig up all
kinds of old stuff on Santiago if I wanted to waste my time but
what's the point? I've learned a lot since then and no longer
think the way I use to. Some of us change and move on, some of
us don't.


Oh, I almost forgot to share this information I received from
Anthony Woods in a letter he sent to me recently in reference to
you, Santiago. I believe it backs up something Tom King was
saying on this list a few weeks ago...?


"Dear Amy Hebert

I am Anthony Woods whose footage you are talking about from
9.8.01, I would like to make you aware that Mr Santiago Yturria
has no rights what so ever in giving or sharing my footages with
you or anyone without my consent, my footages are not public
property, they are my property!! I disassociated myself from Mr
Yturria nearly 9 months ago after I was made aware of certain
facts concerning Mr Yturria`s character & motives and which lead
me to seriously question his honesty and integrity, and I made
it perfectly clear to mr yturria after I parted company with him
that he is strictly forbidden to sell, share, give or copy my
footages with out my written consent, in fact I asked him for
the return of my footages nearly 9 months ago which I had
entrusted to him, but Mr Yturria refused to reply to my e-mails,
Mr Yturria has absolutely nothing to do with my case or footages
now!!!!"


And for another kicker... UFO Magazine UK has asked if they
could do an article in their next issue about my "Rods Exposed"
footage and information. I wrote back telling them I was honored
but they might want to reconsider their offer in light of my on-
going analysis of the Anthony Woods' alleged UFO images. With
incredible style and grace, they replied, "I think that your
honesty is a credit to you and would definitely still want to
feature your analysis and thoughts on the 'Rod' footage you
recorded."

Life is just full of little surprises.

Now back to Doc's page to spend another moment with Doc and his
song. Wish you were here old friend.


Amy
The Yellowrose







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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:34:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:03:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Hebert


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:19:46 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:40:54 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 ><snip>
 >>I recently came across a web site with some amazing "rods"
 >>images and interesting conclusions reached by the research team
 >>at:

 >>http://www.flyingrods.com/indexfl.asp

<snip>

 >In your goodness you will donate most of your earnings to top
 >quality UFO scientifically based research. We all will be much
 >better off. This is your opportunity to become rich and famous
 >in a way that will help all of humanity. This is your destiny
 >Amy Hebert. That is why you live in Texas with its rodlike
 >insects. I'll bet you could have a bizarre type of artistic
 >video creation with other creatures of nature shot at various
 >speeds. What would _they_ look like?

<LOLOLOL!!>

Finally! I will be rich and famous _and_ make a great
contribution to humanity! It's my destiny.

Thanks for the belly laugh, Josh, I needed it!

 >I do confess that there is one kind of rod that really got me
 >going. His name is Rod Serling.

Oooooooo. ho-ho ;>

Actually, I filmed the "rods" in that particular McDonald's
parking lot because... I live in a small town that calls itself
"The City By The Lake" - we are right next to Lake Lewisville. I
figured the brightest lights closest to the lake would have the
most bugs... er... "rods" so that's where I went. You can usually
find lots of bugs around lakes here in Texas this time of year.
But then again, you may be right and it really has to do with
the McDonald's restaurant. Eeeeeewwwww!


Amy










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                      Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:41:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:12:44 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:46:34 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>The new Face image isn't the only oddity greeting visitors to
 >>>the USGS' labyrinthine file directory. Check out these apparent
 >>>cactus-like formations:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >>>Unlike e_1701041.imq.jpg, I don't know where - if it all - this
 >>>image can be found on Malin Space Science Systems' archive. Sun-
 >>>angle information and other factors contained in the MSSS
 >>>ancillary data would help establish what we are (or are not)
 >>>seeing in this provocative image.

 >>Those are indeed interesting looking features!

 >>They look like objects extending upward from the crests of sand
 >>dunes to me, but I'm not good at interpreting such images.

 >When it comes to relatively tiny, subtle objects like the
 >"cacti" (which is nothing more than a label), I've found it's
 >best to wait for the MGS ancillary data, which contains sun-
 >angle and other information. (I've been fooled before by small,
 >shadow-casting features; sometimes it's amazing what simply
 >rotating the image can reveal.)

 >Thankfully Malin Space Science Systems has a processed version
 >of the "cacti" on its own site (see link of page 38 of my Mars
 >site):

 >http://www.mactonnies.com/imperative38.html


Hi Mac:

Could you kindly postt the Malin SSS URL so I can click to it
directly? Your site is dead slow on a dial-up connection like
mine, and I couldn't find the link in with all the Cydonia
materials.

I want to see whatever text and images MSSS has up now.

Thanks

- Larry








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                      Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:03:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:33:22 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:04:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:46:34 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>Cydonian Imperative 5-19-03

 >>>Martian "Cacti"?

 >>>See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)

 >>>The new Face image isn't the only oddity greeting visitors to
 >>>the USGS' labyrinthine file directory. Check out these apparent
 >>>cactus-like formations:

<snip>

 >>Hello Mac:

 >>Those are indeed interesting looking features!

 >>They look like objects extending upward from the crests of sand
 >>dunes to me, but I'm not good at interpreting such images.

 >Hi Larry,

 >They may look like same dunes, but the 'dunes' are really
 >Martian polar ice accumulations. I'm not sure whether they are
 >carbon dioxide or water ice, but they are ice of some type, so
 >I'd expect the darker 'cactus-like growths' atop them to
 >possibly be wind-exposed crystalline growths of material that
 >froze into crystal at it rose (in a less solid form) up through
 >fissures from a warmer environment beneath the ice cap. The
 >wind-blown ice 'frost' would then tend to accumulate around them
 >just as the white sands of Padre Island accumulate along old
 >fence lines, making it look as though the old fence posts grew
 >out the tops of dunes.

 >I think we should be very cautious about interpreting those dark
 >'growths' as plants, even though they remind us of such. There
 >seem to me to be much more parsimonious possible explanations,
 >such as I propose, above.


Hello Ray, Mac... all:

I agree that the simplest explanation is likely the best. So far
the fastest loading image for what you see, remains the USGS
file:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

Mac did indeed fine the corresponding images (several versions
in fact) at the Malin SSS site:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18/images/E17/E1701475.html

Its the images on the left that pertain, the RH set is of
something else.

The LH links there are dreadfully long, and some of them show
little or nothing!

Probably the best one is this:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18/full_gif_map/E17/E1701475.gif

... which appears sideways in comparison to the USGS image.

Again, its best seen with a DSL connection.

I've gotten nothing but run-around trying to get some
interpretation of the images.

Peeling back the USGS URL got me here:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/

... where I read at bottom"

"For comments or questions regarding images represented on these
pages and image processing considerations, please contact Annie
Bennett. "

I clicked on that and got an email address. Here is Annie's
response:

"Dear Mr. Hatch,

The development team for this web site are not scientist. We can
only assist in questions pertaining to design and development of
the web site. Please direct scientific questions to:

ktanaka@usgs.gov OR geosci@wunder.wustl.edu

Annie Bennett
U.S. Geological Survey
2255 North Gemini Drive
Flagstaff, Arizona 86001
TEL:  928-556-7210
EMAIL: abennett@usgs.gov

- - -

OK, nothing from Annie. I emailed both addresses she suggested,
24 hours ago. No response yet, but a third party I never heard
of came back with this:

"Dear Mr. Hatch,

I afraid I'm not able to help you either, not being a geologist.
You might look at the Malin Space Science Systems web site
(http://www.msss.com), run by the developers of the MOC camera
that acquired the image in question. I believe this web site
offers interpretations of some of the more unusual looking
images.

Susan Slavney
---------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Susan Slavney (slavney@wunder.wustl.edu)
Washington University .. St. Louis, MO 63130

- - - -

How Susan Slaveny got my message I do not know. Maybe she is in
charge of public emails.

You would think that between the USGS, Washington University,
Geosciences Node, NASA Planetary Data System (PDS) http://pds-
geosciences.wustl.edu/ .. Malin Space Science Systems themselves
and Gawd knows who else, that somebody could posit some
reasonable scientific interpretation of the image.

Are they all scratching their head too maybe? They've had 5 or 6
weeks to come up with something.

Again, for the file-size, the USGS image (top link above) is by
far the clearest and most dramatic in appearance. The "fence-
posts" look more like pine trees to me, they kind of jump at
you. A few look toppled over. I have saved the image separately
as a 435 KB .jpeg file in case the Internet loses it.

I'm glad Mac brought this up. Even if the explanation is
perfectly prosaic, its definitely something new to me. I was
wondering if somebody didn't hack the USGS site, doctor a
legitimate image and replace the original. Having found it
(slower, poorer) on the Malin site now, I doubt that.

I might send the USGS (best) image-URL to a few news outlets,
speculative science sites and the like. Maybe they can light a
fire under the experts and get some scientific theories brewing.


Best!

- Larry











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                       Multi-levels Of The Multiverse

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 05:41:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:59:32 -0400
Subject: Multi-levels Of The Multiverse


In the May 2003 issue of Scientific American, scientists again
demonstrate their capacity to imagine and theorize. While
theories of parallel universes have been lobbed around for some
years, for the most part speculation has remained theoretical.
Contact with other universes in the multiverse seemed highly
unlikely, but now new thinking on this subject goes beyond a
multiverse concept to a multi-level multiverse concept.

-Bill H.

April 14, 2003

Parallel Universes

Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a
direct implication of cosmological observations

By Max Tegmark

Is there a copy of you reading this article?

A person who is not you but who lives on a planet called Earth,
with misty mountains, fertile fields and sprawling cities, in a
solar system with eight other planets? The life of this person
has been identical to yours in every respect. But perhaps he or
she now decides to put down this article without finishing it,
while you read on. The idea of such an alter ego seems strange
and implausible, but it looks as if we will just have to live
with it, because it is supported by astronomical observations.
The simplest and most popular cosmological model today predicts
that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 1028 meters
from here. This distance is so large that it is beyond
astronomical, but that does not make your doppelg=E4nger any less
real. The estimate is derived from elementary probability and
does not even assume speculative modern physics, merely that
space is infinite (or at least sufficiently large) in size and
almost uniformly filled with matter, as observations indicate.
In infinite space, even the most unlikely events must take place
somewhere. There are infinitely many other inhabited planets,
including not just one but infinitely many that have people with
the same appearance, name and memories as you, who play out
every possible permutation of your life choices.

You will probably never see your other selves. The farthest you
can observe is the distance that light has been able to travel
during the 14 billion years since the big bang expansion began.
The most distant visible objects are now about 4 X 1026 meters
away--a distance that defines our observable universe, also
called our Hubble volume, our horizon volume or simply our
universe. Likewise, the universes of your other selves are
spheres of the same size centered on their planets. They are the
most straightforward example of parallel universes. Each
universe is merely a small part of a larger "multiverse."

By this very definition of "universe," one might expect the
notion of a multiverse to be forever in the domain of
metaphysics. Yet the borderline between physics and metaphysics
is defined by whether a theory is experimentally testable, not
by whether it is weird or involves unobservable entities. The
frontiers of physics have gradually expanded to incorporate ever
more abstract (and once metaphysical) concepts such as a round
Earth, invisible electromagnetic fields, time slowdown at high
speeds, quantum superpositions, curved space, and black holes.
Over the past several years the concept of a multiverse has
joined this list. It is grounded in well-tested theories such as
relativity and quantum mechanics, and it fulfills both of the
basic criteria of an empirical science: it makes predictions,
and it can be falsified.

Scientists have discussed as many as four distinct types of
parallel universes.

The key question is not whether the multiverse exists but rather
how many levels it has.

Level I: Beyond Our Cosmic Horizon

Read more at:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=3D000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC588=
0000

Now here is a question for those with boundless imagination:

How many universes have UFOs buzzing around? (Clue: Depends on
how many universes, volume capacity of universes, number of
intelligent, artifact-making lifeforms, etc...oh my gosh, we
need a new Drake equation!)








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                    Whither NASA's Naked Emperor: Let the

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:57:37 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:36:06 -0400
Subject: Whither NASA's Naked Emperor: Let the


TO:  Classified Ads Manager
    Comprint Military Publications
    1200 Quince Orchard Blvd.
    Gaithersburg, MD 20878

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
    3518 Martha Custis Drive
    Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: May 23, 2003


Ms. Rumburg:

The longer it takes to establish a NASA-Columbia Whistleblower
Reward Fund, the longer (and more elusive) will become the paper
trail leading to full accountability on the part of culpable
officials. I therefore ask, in the interest of the public's
right-to-know and the NASA's duty-to-tell, that you promptly
provide me a cost estimate for placing the following ad in one
edition of the Fort Myer,Va., published newspaper the "Pentagram"
(as I requested of you via my e-message of May 13, 2003):

DOLLARS-FOR-DISCLOSURE: BLOW THE WHISTLE ON NASA

Help me set up a Whistleblower Reward Fund to compel full NASA
accountability as to what certain officials know (and when they
knew it) about the events leading up to Columbia's crash. Call
Larry W. Bryant at 703-931-3341 (e-mail: overtci@cavtel.net).

Thank you, Ms. Rumburg, for attending to this request as soon as
possible.


Larry W. Bryant








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                    Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:06:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:39:20 -0400
Subject: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us


Source: The Age - Melbourne, Australia

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/23/1053585701484.html

For millennia, humans have gazed at the red dot in the sky that
is Mars. Now, in a poignant twist, a space probe has offered a
glimpse of Earth as Martians would see us.

The photo was snapped by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, a probe
that has been orbiting the Red Planet for more than six years.

It shows our planet as a disc, in half-moon (or half-Earth)
phase, with the moon in the upper right-hand corner.

The image comes just months before Mars makes its closest
approach to Earth in 73,000 years, with three Mars-bound
spacecraft about to be launched in the coming months.

The image shows a bright area at the top, which is clouds over
central and north-eastern America; a darker area at the middle,
which is central America and the Gulf of Mexico; and more clouds
over South America.

Although the image is slightly magnified, Earth would still
appear far brighter in the Martian sky than vice versa.

Earth is about three times larger than Mars and our clouds and
oceans are better reflectors of light than land.

"Taking this picture allowed us to look up from the work of
exploring Mars and take in a more panoramic view," said the
camera operator, Michael Malin.

"This image gives us a new perspective on the neighbourhood, one
in which we can see our own planet as one among many."

At the time of the photo, May 8, the Earth and Jupiter appeared
in exact alignment from Mars. This allowed the probe to snap an
image of Earth alongside Jupiter and three of its satellites.

An equally spectacular sight will be available to stargazers in
August, when Mars, according to NASA, makes its closest approach
to Earth since 71,000BC - a distance of 56 million kilometres
(the distance from Earth to the moon, by comparison, is about
400,000 kilometres).

Vince Ford, of the Stromlo Observatory in Canberra, said the
approach would make Mars the brightest object in the night sky
other than the moon and Venus.

NASA's two Mars exploration rovers and the European Space
Agency's Mars express mission, meanwhile, are due to be launched
this winter and will arrive at Mars in the summer.







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   May > May 23

                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:20:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:51:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rogers


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:52:04 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:31:22 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:05:45 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>>>>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >Where in the world does the crazy idea originate that the alien
 >autopsy footage is the best evidence we have for ET visitation?
 >I have a whole chapter on it in my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC. My
 >conclusion is very negative and I am in the Fox film! And yes, I
 >met with Santilli twice etc etc. Except for Ed Gehrman, who else
 >on this List agrees with that viewpoint?

 >Ian, I surely wish you would be specific about who believes what
 >rather than filling us with your generalizations without
 >providing any evidence to support them or specifics as to just
 >who believes what...

Believe me, Mr. Friedman, I have never believed wholeheartedly
in the AA film - especially considering its background (or lack
thereof). But considering the somewhat touchy state of things in
Ufology regarding things that have yet to be proved or
disproved, I thought it best to go with what seems to be the
general consensus that since it hasn't been proven that it IS a
fake, that it could very well be a dead alien. I don't
personally believe that -- not even a little bit -- nor do I
agree with that rather peculiar reasoning. When I said the AA
film was our best evidence, I meant that, considering some
photographs and films that alleged to show aliens (both dead and
alive), the AA film is among the most widely known, most
examined, and most controversial.

My apologies for the miscommunication.


Ian Rogers








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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: Mark Carlotto <markcarlotto@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:47:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:57:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:09:15 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:33:20 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: roof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m22-025.shtml

 >>As for getting answers from Oberg's friends at NASA, there's not
 >>much chance of getting _straight_ answers if they're anything
 >>like Oberg. The answers are likely to be as phony as these time
 >>stamps. I think eventually we'll get honest answers and the
 >>unadulterated data out of NASA, but I'm afraid it might take a
 >>few lawyers to extract them.

 >I think that people who are serious about investigating any
 >subject realize that one seeks out expertise where it resides,
 >and later may speculate on its completeness or honesty - no
 >serious researcher, IMHO, decides in advance to avoid
 >information sources because of prejudice. But it is noticeable
 >that Fleming continues to pretend there are no primary witnesses
 >to the events he pretends to be investigating - unless he
 >decides in advance that they are all liars..

 >I would like to hear from Dr. Carlotto himself that he finds
 >Fleming's conclusions persuasive. Mark, can you weigh in here?


If STS-48 has a prosaic explanation it has to be consistent with
the data. The time stamps were used to argue that events seen in
the video occurred at about the same time as thruster firings.
But Fleming has called into question the accuracy of the time
stamps, which if true, casts serious doubt on Oberg's
explanation. Seems like independent verification of Lan's
analysis is warranted.

But you know there are other features about this video (see my
paper on the NFS web site) that have never been
addressed/explained by the experts: the curved tracks seen to
the right of the video frame, a well-resolved object moving
below the Shuttle, and others. Again, if the event has a prosaic
explanation then it has to be consistent with _all_ of the data.

---








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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:39:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:00:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:21:38 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:33:20 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: roof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >>The facts that Oberg is trying to obfuscate are that the tape
 >>shows the time stamps continue for six seconds after loss of the
 >>video signal and that once the signal is reacquired, the time
 >>stamps are out of synchronization with the video by over a
 >>minute for a period of almost one second. That proves the time
 >>stamps shown on the tape were added to the video at some later
 >>date. Telemetry data cannot be downlinked after the telemetry
 >>signal is lost, so the time stamps are not telemetry data. The
 >>correct time may well have been encoded in the video telemetry,
 >>but that is _not_ what's on the tape.
 >
 >Because I'm interested in real facts and not imaginary evidence,
 >I double-checked with a few old INCO buddies (does Mr. Fleming
 >know what that means?) today and asked them about the displayed
 >time tag at AOS/LOS. They got good chuckles out of the
 >delusionally imaginary explanations that Fleming demands
 >everybody believe, and saw no technical strangeness with the
 >behavior of the videtape time tags as described in Mr. Fleming's
 >essay. As long as Mr. Fleming is determined to NEVER ask the
 >professional engineers and operators (included those retired)
 >about this topic, his interpretations of what he thinks he sees
 >in the videos will continue to be howlingly lost in space.

What a pathetically dishonest misrepresentation. I did not
merely "describe" what I "think I saw"; I _showed_ exactly what
I saw, and what everyone else can see except for Oberg and his
pals. The time tags continue uninterrupted for 6 seconds after
the video goes to static as shown here:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/LOS.htm#F2

And the 1.5 minute jump in time does not occur until almost a
second after the signal was reacquired as shown in the two
consecutive frames mislabeled with time stamps 1.5 minutes apart
shown here:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/LOS.htm#F4

and here:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/LOS.htm#F5


BTW: Mark Carlotto knows about the time stamp problem and did
get a chuckle out it, but not exactly for the reasons Oberg and
his buddies might wish. There may come a time when they no
longer will pretend to find it amusing and will have to explain
why this tape has been mislabeled.








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                   Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:09:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:31:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Maccabee


 >From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:04:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

<snip>

 >And as long as I'm shooting off my mouth, allow me pipe in with
 >my own 2 cents about the esteemed Mr. Klass. And that is only to
 >say that he really let me down. At a time in my life when I
 >desperately wanted him to make sense, when I was primed and
 >ready for him to make sense... he just didn't. It was such a
 >disappointment. I have read some really intelligent skeptical
 >arguments, and they are a delight indeed. But as with too much
 >of the pro-UFO stuff, the really intelligent stuff from the
 >skeptical side of the aisle is pretty rare.

I must say I am not sorry that Klass let you down at a time of
need. However, I would be interested to know what arguments you
refer to (what cases?) and whether or not this was an impersonal
let-down (you read something in his books) or a personal let
down (it was during an exchange of letters with PJK).

You probably have already seen my own discussion of Klass "let
down" of the general public in his book '.....Deceived'.








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                  Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:15:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:32:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Maccabee


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:19:09 -0500 (EST)
 >Subject: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?


 >At the following link to an article about a UFO seen in
 >Azerbaijan, that was seen by many people and captured on video, a
 >photo of Ed's UFO is displayed.

 >I _assume_ they just used his pic and this is not a photo of the
 >UFO seen over there, which would be quite significant.

 >Could Bruce or someone else confirm that this pic has been
">taken" from Ed ? The telephone pole and trees should
 >prove this one way or another.


You are correct.







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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:15:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:32:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:39:15 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:21:38 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >What a pathetically dishonest misrepresentation. I did not
 >merely "describe" what I "think I saw"; I _showed_ exactly what
 >I saw, and what everyone else can see except for Oberg and his pals.

My suggestion is that understanding an apparent technical
anomaly in a NASA tape requires, inter alia, inquiring of the
relevant NASA technical experts how the time tag is encoded and
then displayed on the downlink video. Fleming has not done that
and makes it clear he has no intention of doing that, so it
should not be surprising that his understanding of what lies
behind the video time tagging is inadequate to support any
hypothesis.

His unwillingness to even consider the testimony of on-the-scene
witnesses and technical experts suggests to me that he has
chosen his conclusion in advance and wants to use only such
evidence and argumentation as can support his pre-existing
interpretations.

My 'pals' (and me, for that matter) are the people who have
studied, worked with (and often helped design), been certified
on, and performed under real flight control situations, in the
technical management of some pretty sophisticated machinery. The
knowledge my pals (and I) have about such systems would, under
normal conditions, be considered a critical first step for
anyone truly interested in understanding how these systems
function (and perhaps malfunction). But again, that is merely my
suggestion.








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              Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:10:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:34:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Rogers


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:06:04 -0300
 >Subject: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >Source: The Age - Melbourne, Australia

 >http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/23/1053585701484.html

It doesn't show much, but I still have to say wow. It's a beautiful
picture.


Ian Rogers








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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:26:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:37:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: Mark Carlotto <markcarlotto@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:47:24 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony!

 >If STS-48 has a prosaic explanation it has to be consistent with
 >the data. The time stamps were used to argue that events seen in
 >the video occurred at about the same time as thruster firings.
 >But Fleming has called into question the accuracy of the time
 >stamps, which if true, casts serious doubt on Oberg's
 >explanation. Seems like independent verification of Lan's
 >analysis is warranted.
 >
 >But you know there are other features about this video (see my
 >paper on the NFS web site) that have never been
 >addressed/explained by the experts: the curved tracks seen to
 >the right of the video frame, a well-resolved object moving
 >below the Shuttle, and others. Again, if the event has a prosaic
 >explanation then it has to be consistent with _all_ of the data.

I agree that if the time tags are shown to have been altered or
falsified, then the coincidence in time of the thruster firing
and the screen flicker and the course changes of several
particles, is called into question. I would be delighted to see
somebody else try to verify Fleming's allegations, since it is
my view that he has shown himself technically ignorant of
requisite knowledge of the systems he is making assertions
about. I believe I have provided enough verifiable examples of
Fleming's factless fantasies to remove any credibility from his
claim.

As to a prosaic explanation being consistent with all of the
data, I also agree. We work on this piecewise. Here are some
steps in that direction:

Do you agree that the lack of detected angular motion is not, as
you first claimed, proof there was no thruster firing? That is,
the actual angular motion induced by a thruster firing would not
have passed the detectability test by which you conclude there
WAS no such motion?

Do you agree that the Orbiter attitude relative to the Sun did
provide a large shadowed zone over the left wing, contrary to
your first claims that the Sun was directly off the nose and
fully illuminating all of the space above that wing?

Do you agree that _all_ sudden changes in direction of ALL
particles in view _only_ occurred in the one-second interval
allegedly coincident with the thruster firing?

Regarding the curved motion of particles near the edge of the
camera FOV, please defend your allegation that this is
inconsistent with straight motion, even viewed in a wide angle
lens.

In your posting of your views, why do you not mention the
criticisms in subsequent issues of JSR by Dr. Irwin Wieder of
some of your fundamental interpretations and conclusions?

We can make progress stepwise, and thanks for the opportunity to
do so.







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   May > May 23

              Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Yturria

From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:20:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:44:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Yturria


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:21:13 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien

 >>From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:29:13 EDT
 >>Subject: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien

 >>Amy,

 >>Following your statements about alleged UFO photos and videos,
 >>rods, IFOs etc. I found in my archives that in 1995-96 you
 >>conducted and published an investigation under the name of:
 >>"Alien Convention ". A case of alleged alien encounter and
 >>abduction involving a family and a neighbor and most important
 >>with photographic evidence.

 ><snip>

 >Wow! I forgot all about that old web site! What a trip down memory
 >lane.

 >Anyone remember old Doc Berry? Just came across a little
 >memorial I made for him on this old site when I found out he had
 >died on January 13, 1999:

Dear Amy,

You certainly are trying to be clever here and as I suspected
want to distract our attention as much as posible to the real
issue of this thread: Your Alien Photo

 >So in honor of Doc, I hereby award Santiago Yturria the "Doc
 >Barry Bovine Excrement Award"!

Yeah, for exposing the facts? Nice language Dr. Hebert, losing
your temper?

 >Congratulations, Santiago.

 >Who Loves Ya, Baby?

Thank you and I have more from you baby. You certainly have been
a versatile character these years.

 >As for this old case Santiago is trying to dredge up, I closed
 >this site years ago. I think we all have those "early days" when
 >we were naive and had much to learn.

Nice try but I don't buy that. For someone that holds a B.A.
degree in Psychology, M.Ed. in Counseling/Psychology and is a
Certified Hypnotherapist there's not excuse to be "naive"
specially if you published two books about this subject and
conducted an extensive correspondence with people about your
research for years, dictating protocols and tutorials about how
to deal with Aliens, their motives and the threat they are for
humankind. Such an expert in these matters.

 >Oh, I almost forgot to share this information I received from
 >Anthony Woods in a letter he sent to me recently in reference to
 >you, Santiago.

Well the psychcologist is angry and looking for revenge. I was
expecting something like this. Trying to be smart? If Mr. Woods
didn't want his footage to fall in the hands of a skeptic to
avoid your debunk, so what? It's his privilege.

Amy please don't insult our intelligence trying to deviate our
attention of the real issue here. Tell us about Bubu and your
year's experience with him. Did Bubu visit you? As you claim to
be an expert in photographic evidences what methods you used to
analyze the alleged Bubu's photos. How did you come to these
conclusions after a year of study on this graphic materials.
Tell us about the reptilian Alien and the strange Alien woman
frightening Cathy. Don't you want to share with us the details
of your two year's investigation on this amazing case?

Or maybe after all these years you changed your mind and got to
the conclusion that the story was not really true and the
alleged photos were an allucination or a hoax and therefore the
whole case was a terrible mistake in your career. But you never
posted a public statement apologizing for being "naive" for
three years and retracted yourself for proclaiming the "Bubu"
tale and the whole affair. How convenient.

How about your book. Did you have good sales?

I will wait patiently for your comments on your Alien photo.
It's your call and must face the rules, this is your game
remember? By this time I think most of our friends have seen
already the "amazing" figure of the dreadful "Bubu". I'm sorry
Amy but I'm suspecting that for the second time no one got
interested in your ultimate alien evidence. There's still hope.

I wonder if "Bubu" and "Freddie" are friends...


Santiago








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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:35:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 07:51:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:55:19 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48

 >That is truly laughable. If Oberg really had examined Mark's
 >paper as he claims, he would >have noticed that it was published
 >in the Journal of Scientific Exploration in 1995, _eight_ years
 >ago. Mark posted it on the NFS site to provide the background
 >information to my >article.

I was indeed puzzled by the 'Spring 2003' date displayed on the
top of the pages. I am quite familiar with Carlotto's original
paper, and i am also familiar, as I'll bet Fleming is not, with
Wider's rebuttals also published in JSR but NOT, I notice,
mentioned in Carlotto's reposting.

 >Oberg's "examination" is mostly a rehashing of stuff he wrote
 >years ago attacking Carlotto.

Indeed my points are some of the same ones I made some time ago,
which had not, in the meantime, ever been answered.

 >It seems that Oberg is renewing his old attacks only to worm
 >his way out of dealing with the new, and quite devastating,
 >evidence against his pet theory:

So we add mind-reading to the skills of Mr. Fleming? We are
still waiting for him to actually describe his credentials as a
person with any expertise or experience in space technology.
Since he has not provided them in response to requests, the
presumption may be that he has, in fact, none - as his
misunderstandings of spaceflight technology have already amply
demonstrated.

 >No competent engineer or scientist would make a big deal about
 >an arbitrary time reference frame chosen for clarity in a graph
 >presented in a scientific paper.

Sure they would - especially when the graph is supposed to show
context of several events, such as thruster firings, sunrise,
etc. To show a graph of apparent object brightness without
allowing correlation of the changes with exterior events
relevant to illumination is inadequate.

 >Oberg has apparently been immersed in the practice of the
 >pseudoscience of anti-Ufology, as Stanton Friedman correctly
 >describes it, for so long that he no longer knows how to read a
 >graph.

The awkwardness remains that the change in angular
motion/direction associated with a thruster firing, or about
0.01 degrees per second, would be too small to be detected on
Carlotto's scale. Choice of scale therefore leads to a 'false
negative' regarding the prosaic hypothesis.

 >The angular velocities of the stars in the video are around .05
 >degrees per second, varying with position. (Oberg would have
 >had to do a real analysis rather than his sham analysis to find
 >out the angular rates of stars in the video).

Unless the camera is rotating about the line-of-sight into the
FOV, I would indeed be curious to learn how different stars on
the same celestial sphere would have different true angular
rates. Orbital rate is approx 4 degrees per minute (at STS-48
altitude it was closer to 3.75 deg/min or 0.06 deg/sec, not
0.05). Distortion of the large-angular-area field-of-view could
lead to apparent variations in this rate.

 >There are, as Oberg points out correctly (for a change),
 >unresolved questions about the changes in magnitude and
 >direction of the objects' motions that would be caused by a
 >rocket firing. But they're irrelevant since there is (1) _zero_
 >evidence of a rocket firing in the video, (2) compelling
 >evidence that the light flash was an intensification of the pre-
 >existing lens flare, and (3) compelling evidence that the time
 >stamps are invalid, despite Oberg's furious and transparently
 >dishonest attempts to evade these facts.

The evidence for a rocket firing is a visual effect which has
been seen hundreds of times on downlink, plus the telemetry
record of the thruster firing, plus the telemetry charts of the
shuttle's attitude which show it gradually drifting towards the
pitch deadband over a period of several minutes until it reaches
it, at which point the autopilot triggers the corrective pulse.
Fleming's case apparently is based on the assumption that such
data is fabricated and such testimony is contrived.

Re the 'flare' explanation' - Fleming's compulsions about the
truth of his interpretations are understandable, especially when
rooted in a similar compulsion to avoid asking technical
questions from any of the technical experts in the systems he
claims self-taught expertise in. When asked about the simplest
of terms associated with this system - 'INCO', or Ku-band versus
S-band relative to TDRS LOS - Fleming passes over in silence all
opportunities to demonstrate even the most superficial
familiarity with simple facts.

Ditto the time stamp questions. Fleming's argument appears to be
specially designed by people who avoid primary knowledge, for
people who do not notice the absence of primary sources or
knowledge.







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             Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Tonnies


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:10:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:06:04 -0300
 >>Subject: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/23/1053585701484.html

 >It doesn't show much, but I still have to say wow.
 >It's a beautiful picture.

I think the fact that it doesn't show much makes it so poignant;
it shows us in a cosmic context, something we can never get
enough of.

=====
 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Transhumanism, esoterica, cyberpunk, UFOs, book reviews,
fiction, more...

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)








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                        Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:21:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:00:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson


 >From: Michael Harman <rocketman5047@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >>called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 >>Last fall I noticed insects flying around a light in the Wal-
 >>Mart parking lot and out of the corner of my eye, they looked
 >>just like the images being presented for years as "rods".
 >>Shortly afterwards, the insect population decreased so I
 >>couldn't catch them flying around the lights with my video
 >>camera. I have been waiting all winter for the insects to
 >>return.

 >>On May 5th, 2003, I finally got my chance to test my hypothesis
 >>and spent several hours filming insects flying near the lights
 >>in the parking lot near our one-and-only McDonalds restaurant.
 >>I filmed the insects (seemed like hundreds of them) with
 >>various shutter speeds but got the best results capturing "rod"
 >>like images by using the Sports setting. Even through the
 >>viewfinder, I could see the "rods" (aka insects, bugs) flying
 >>near the lights.

 >>Although I'm sure those who promote the "rods" phenomenon will
 >>now say, "Rods are attracted to lights!", the more rational
 >>among us will know rods are really insects.

 >>I encourage anyone interested to go to a parking lot at night
 >>with your camcorder set on "Sports", aim and focus your camera
 >>on the insects flying close to the light, record, then review
 >>the footage in slow motion to see for yourself (most of the time
 >>you don't even need to review in slow motion).

 >>But please, do not make DVD's, videos, etc. and try to sell your
 >>images as "UFO's" or "Rods"! It's time to stop this type of
 >>hoax.

 >You are correct in your findings.

 >I'm a retired USAF photographer, I also studied video technology
 >while in the Air Force.

 >It is clear to me how this type of effect can be produced
 >combining the effects of the rapidly flashing gas street lights
 >in conjunction with the shutter speed of the video camera. You
 >are simply photographing the wings flapping. Due to the speed of
 >the wings/light flicker, you are only capturing the wings
 >flapping every other or so cycle, thus the alternating efect.

 >Actually I realized this was a hoax or at best a mis-
 >identification of a known effect, as soon I started seeing
 >articles and photoes on the internet. Actually I chose to ignore
 >them.

 >It is my professional opinion that UFOs do exist because I have
 >seen them, and seen them up close, knowing that they do not fit
 >any known object. But Rods, I must say, just do not exist.


Hello Michael, Amy and Listers,

Fascinating that the rods effect can be duplicated in the way
outlined and we are all sure it can be duplicated in that way.
Because something can be duplicated does _not_ mean that all
objects are as you think they are. For instance - anyone can
duplicate a UFO on film or video, and before I eccept your
theory you would have to go to the New Mexico cave (at least),
tape a rod and capture the same rod (as an insect) all on tape.

As you are debunking and purporting these things then the onus
is upon yourselves to prove your point in the way I outline
here. I know rods are real and are somewhat of a menace not only
to Humans but to sheep especially. Not being a conspiracy
theorist I will not outline the reason for the debunk, although
I could do so.


Kind regards

col








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                             Waterfalls On Mars?

From: Eustaquio Anddre=E9a Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:48:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:03:06 -0400
Subject: Waterfalls On Mars?


http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/2003/50/50-waterfalls-report.htm


With pictures.....






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                     Unusual Lenticular Cloud Formations

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:01:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:04:31 -0400
Subject: Unusual Lenticular Cloud Formations


I thought some of you might be interested in these unusual "alto
cumulus lenticularus" clouds photographed in 1999.

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~dscholes/amazingclouds.html

What caught my eye in particular is the similarity between these
formations and the "object" in the painting by Carlo Crivelli
called "The Annunciation with Saint Emidius" (1486) often cited
as evidence of UFOs in medieval art.

http://shorterlink.com/?0VWR2I


Terry Groff
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/
ICQ:18292278









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                 Re: Multi-levels Of The Multiverse - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:13:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:08:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Multi-levels Of The Multiverse - Hatch


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 05:41:41 -0800
 >Subject: Multi-levels Of The Multiverse

 >In the May 2003 issue of Scientific American, scientists again
 >demonstrate their capacity to imagine and theorize. While
 >theories of parallel universes have been lobbed around for some
 >years, for the most part speculation has remained theoretical.
 >Contact with other universes in the multiverse seemed highly
 >unlikely, but now new thinking on this subject goes beyond a
 >multiverse concept to a multi-level multiverse concept.

 >-Bill H.

 >April 14, 2003

 >Parallel Universes

 >Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a
 >direct implication of cosmological observations

 >By Max Tegmark

 >Is there a copy of you reading this article?

 >A person who is not you but who lives on a planet called Earth,
 >with misty mountains, fertile fields and sprawling cities, in a
 >solar system with eight other planets? The life of this person
 >has been identical to yours in every respect. But perhaps he or
 >she now decides to put down this article without finishing it,
 >while you read on.

<snip>


Hello Bill:

This concept is indeed discussed, perhaps cautiously, in
physics. Oddly, it derives more from the world of the very small
than the very large .. maybe both. It goes all the way back to
the seminal Double-Slit Experiment where a particle, a photon
say, goes thru _both_ slits like a wave (impossible for a solid
body) until somebody tries to determine which slit the particles
are going thru. THEN the quantum uncertainty "collapses", and
the photon or whatever decides its a particle and not a wave!

If the universe split right there. In one, the photon (or
electron ..) goes thru the left slit. In the other, it goes thru
the right-hand slit. If you credit the idea, this makes for two
observers where there just one. But, they can never compare
notes!

Since quantum events occur all the time in staggering numbers,
this implies a number of parallel universes shooting toward
infinity. That is enough to make the theorists pull their
beards, and say things like " Lets go collide some cesium atoms
instead." I prefer a nice cold one instead.

There are two things that mystics and news writers almost always
leave out of this story:

a) Two beings in separate such universes could never contact one
another. They would have to travel backward in time to the point
where they split apart! In a sense, their two universes split
apart at 90-degree angles, much like the side of a cube running
into a corner... diverging endlessly, without pause, not even a
bump.

If the two observers could see one another, and they can not,
each would think the other one went sailing off into never-never
land.

b) In theory (if I have this right) there is no possible test
for the multiverse theory! If that is true, its no longer
science strictly speaking.

It is here that the mystics and shamans crawl out of the
woodwork like thugs and thieves in Baghdad. With no scientific
principles to keep them honest, they immediately distort what is
known, much like the Social Darwinists and Moral Relativists who
twisted the hard honest work of Darwin and Einstein long ago.

The news writers are simply looking for hot copy. Its hard to
say which is worse, most people read the news after all.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                    Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:47:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:16:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Velez


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:47:45 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:18:30 +0100
 >>Subject: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:46:50 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >><snip>

 >>>Fair enough. I shall clarify for the List:

 >>>The claim that aliens are habitually visiting the earth
 >>>(crashing into our deserts, abducting humans, mutilating cattle,
 >>>carving crop circles in wheat fields, et al.) requires
 >>>extraordinary evidence.

 >>>The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
 >>>bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
 >>>evidence. Alien bases on the Moon, Mars, underground, aliens
 >>>abducting us, mutilating us and our cattle, are some fairly wild
 >>>ideas. Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
 >>>don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound person
 >>>to believe them.

 >>>Because the people who tell such stories seem sincere? Because
 >>>they have no reason to lie?

 >>>I really hope they have more proof than that. Sadly, they
 >>>usually don't.

 >>OK then Ian -

 >>Please prove that it isn't ET perpetrating these things and who
 >>is actually perpetrating them. Could it be the military? If it
 >>is then the folk sufferring should take their own country to
 >>high court and get true justice done.

 >>These things have gone on for too many years now and anyone with
 >>an ounce of sense wants answers, not to be told they are mad.

 >A-ha! The classic question-with-a-question that so many throw
 >at me. "How do you know it ISN'T aliens?"

 >Well, I'll tell you something: It's not my job to disprove the
 >wacky theories going around. It's the job of the people making
 >such claims to back them up with suitable evidence. Though, as
 >it's clearly been seen on this list, it doesn't take that much
 >to convince some people.

 >It's like someone who sees a UFO in the sky and says, 'Hey,
 >look, a vehicle from another planet," and I say, 'How do you
 >know it's from another planet?' You're telling me that an
 >adequate reply would be 'How do I know it isn't?'

 >Forgive me but that sounds pretty lame. The onus is on the
 >person making the claim to back it up. It's not on me to
 >disprove it. I've never been a debunker. I have never come here
 >and torn apart any one specific case. I have never said alien
 >abduction isn't happening. I have said it will take more than
 >scoop marks and lost time to convince me. I have never said the
 >government isn't lying - about what, who knows, but that
 >doesn't necessarily preclude a dark deal with human-eating,
 >cattle-mutilating grays. I just got told the other day that
 >grays might have eight fingers (something related to binary code
 >and back-engineered alien technology that I can honestly say I
 >didn't give much attention to). So now we know grays have eight
 >fingers? How many abductees have reported any number of fingers
 >on an alien's hand? I'm willing to be that a great many number
 >of fingers have been given over the years, so to say that they
 >have eight, on the words of one of the many alleged alien
 >abductees... I mean, do I really need to say any more?

 >All I have said is that it will take more evidence than it
 >clearly takes some people here to convince me of the rather
 >large claim that aliens are visiting this planet and constantly
 >crashes their ships into the remote regions of our planets. No
 >one wanted to take me up on that challenge, I noticed. Of all
 >the supposed UFO crashes (and retrievals) not one of them
 >occurred in a location that wasn't remote or in place that made
 >verification difficult if not impossible. Again, I have to say
 >thank you to all the alien pilots who managed to avoid dumping
 >their ships in populated areas.

 >To say that enough evidence already exists and that the real
 >problem is that the media won't take people in Ufology seriously
 >is nonsense. If there was a news story here, they would be
 >covering it - not for Ufology but for themselves. There simply
 >isn't enough meat (yet) to get them really interested. Or maybe
 >it's the government controlling all the major newswires and
 >publishers. I don't know. I'm sure someone here does.


Hello Ian, All,

Ya know... you've been saying the same thing over and over again
about abductee reports and UFO witness testimony in just about
all of your posts. You've been repeating it like a mantra.

Because you're fairly new to the List, I'm going to take the
time to address them one at a time. Under ordinary
circumstances, I would simply point you to the UpDates archive
and counsel you to do your homework. To read some of what
has already been written in response to the very same or
similar remarks from a few others in the past.

You chant:

 >The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
 >bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
 >evidence.

Not true at all. I gather you don't own copies of Jerry Clarke's
UFO encyclopedia, or Dick Hall's UFO Evidence books. In terms of
abduction material, apparently you haven't read C.D.D.B. Bryan's
book about the abduction conference that was held at M.I.T. in
the early 90's, or any of Temple University historian, David
Jacobs' books. Everything written by people like Ray Fowler and
Budd Hopkins has thoroughly and meticulously investigated.

Not to mention the Sturrock panel report!

Methinks that _you_ may be the one making "bold" and maybe even
'uninformed' statements. All of the people I mentioned above,
including quite a few I failed to mention, are reputable,
respectable individuals with experience and credentials.

No "evidence" accompanies abduction reports?

How about; multiple witnesses, ground trace evidence, scoop
marks, fully healed scars and bruises among other physical
anomalies. All considered to be "evidence" is in the eye of the
beholder. But in the fully opened eyes of the aforementioned
individuals, there is enough compelling evidence to warrant
their dedicating decades of their lives to the full time
investigation of a phenomenon that you claim 'most people are
wary of.'

BTW, the latest polls say that you are dead wrong. More than 50%
of people think UFOs are real and that the gubbamint is hiding
information, while 21% believe that abductions are real.

So what do you mean by "most people?"

"Most people" that _you_ talk to? Because if you're talking
about the general public, you couldn't be farther off-base.

 >Alien abducting us,

See my last response. Many of the witnesses you think are not
credible include people from all walks of life, professions,
educational levels and social strata. The one big mistake you
are making is that you tend to generalize your statements
regarding abductees and UFO witnesses. You have to take people
and cases one at a time, Ian.

 >Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
 >don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound
 >person to believe them.

As I have already listed above, _many_ "sound" people believe
the witnesses and think there is enough evidence to justify
serious investigation. Unless you're will to call folks like
Dick Hall, Stan Freidman, Jerry Clarke, John Mack, Ray Fowler
etc. etc. etc. "unsound"... once again, I think your 'opinion'
does not take the real facts of the matter into account.

The truth is; that _many_ well educated, credentialed and
experienced people are involved full-time in the investigation
of matters that you claim don't have enough 'evidence' to
justify a second look by "sound individuals."

BTW, my testimony in a criminal case would be enough to help
get someone convicted. Some of the abductees you are lumping
together as not being credible/believable, include;
psychiatrists, doctors, lawyers, police officers, and even a
couple of high ranking military people. Talk to Budd Hopkins or
Dave Jacobs and ask them _before_ spouting off generalizations
about how unreliable abductee testimony is.

Like I said Ian, you need to do some homework _before_ making
the kind of inaccurate and unfounded generalizations that you
have made (repeatedly) about UFOs and abduction since joining
the List.

I didn't write this response to debate you on these points.
Only to point out how wrong and uninformed you are in your one
size fits all, broad brush statements. Study, educate yourself
by getting to know the researchers and some of their subjects
better before you broadcast such sweeping opinions in public.

All blacks are not any one way. Neither are Jews or abductees
for that matter! Capiche?


John Velez
UFO witness, Abductee







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                            Liquid Water On Mars

From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:18:49 -0400
Subject: Liquid Water On Mars


List,

Liquid water may exist in low-lying areas on Mars.

Because the martian polar caps contain large volumes of frozen
carbon dioxide, the gaseous CO2 which sublimates from them would
provide a protective barrier over nearby pools of water.

The relatively dense CO2 in such depressions would lower the
evaporation rate of the water it overlay. This effect may be
demonstrated by pouring equal small amounts of water into each
of two graduated cylinders, then filling the remaining volume of
one with CO2 gas.

The evaporation rate of the water in the carbon dioxide-filled
cylinder will be significantly lower that that of the air-filled
cylinder. Therefore, pools of water (such as shown on the
Internet site www.marsunearthed.com ) could exist indefinitely on
the martian surface.









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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:16:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:22:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:21:02 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Michael Harman <rocketman5047@yahoo.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

<snip>

 >Because something can be duplicated does _not_ mean that all
 >objects are as you think they are. For instance - anyone can
 >duplicate a UFO on film or video, and before I eccept your
 >theory you would have to go to the New Mexico cave (at least),
 >tape a rod and capture the same rod (as an insect) all on tape.

 >As you are debunking and purporting these things then the onus
 >is upon yourselves to prove your point in the way I outline
 >here. I know rods are real and are somewhat of a menace not only
 >to Humans but to sheep especially[!]  Not being a conspiracy
 >theorist I will not outline the reason for the debunk, although
 >I could do so.


Dear Col:

Sheep? What about goats or the vegetable kingdom for that
matter. Is my lemon tree at any risk from rods?


Worried in Redwood City, CA

- Larry Hatch







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   May > May 24

                    Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:55:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:31:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial - Denzler


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:09:18 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 >>From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler1@email.msn.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:04:03 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Skeptics - An Editorial

 ><snip>

 >>And as long as I'm shooting off my mouth, allow me pipe in
 >with >my own 2 cents about the esteemed Mr. Klass. And that
 >is only to >say that he really let me down. At a time in my
 >life when I >desperately wanted him to make sense, when I
 >was primed and >ready for him to make sense... he just
 >didn't. It was such a >disappointment. I have read some
 >really intelligent skeptical >arguments, and they are a
 >delight indeed. But as with too much >of the pro-UFO stuff,
 >the really intelligent stuff from the >skeptical side of the
 >aisle is pretty rare.

 >I must say I am not sorry that Klass let you down at a time
 >of need. However, I would be interested to know what
 >arguments you refer to (what cases?) and whether or not this
 >was an impersonal let-down (you read something in his books)
 >or a personal let down (it was during an exchange of letters
 >with PJK).

 >You probably have already seen my own discussion of Klass
 >"let down" of the general public in his book '.....Deceived'.

Bruce,

Shortly after I had started reading in the UFO literature, I had
the chance to go hear Klass speak locally at the planetarium. I
had been rather alarmed at some of the things I'd read, and by
then I knew enough about the field to know that Klass was a big
disbeliever in all things ufological. So I eagerly went to hear
him, thinking that he would provide me with good, prosaic
explanations for the things I'd been reading about. Explanations
that I had not been able to think of or lacked the technical
training to be able to think of. I was sorely disappointed. I
would have expected better from someone with his publishing and,
presumably, technical background. I came home and made lengthy
notes on what he said and my reactions to it, but I can't find
that file right now. I'm sure I've got a paper version of it
somewhere, but can't find it electronically. Anyway, as I was
leaving the talk and reception that followed, I mentioned to a
man who was walking next to me that I hadn't found Klass'
arguments very convincing, and he said that he hadn't, either.
That was in 1992, if memory serves.

To the best of my recall, I have not seen your article on Klass,
but, again, if I checked my paper files or looked through my
back issues of the MUFON Journal, JUFOS, or IUFO Reporter, I
might find it - if it's in there. Can you give me a reference to
look it up with?


Brenda








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   May > May 24

                 Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us -

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:41:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:33:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us -


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:10:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >>>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:06:04 -0300
 >>>Subject: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >>http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/23/1053585701484.html

 >>It doesn't show much, but I still have to say wow.
 >>It's a beautiful picture.

 >I think the fact that it doesn't show much makes it so poignant;
 >it shows us in a cosmic context, something we can never get
 >enough of.

Having taken a look I yearned to be there for some reason :-)

col

http://www.colsweb.com ET cartoons







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               Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 13:47:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:36:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -


 >From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:35:35 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Proof STS-48 Video Time Stamps Are Phony! -

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:55:19 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Examining New Carlotto Argumentation Re STS-48

 >>That is truly laughable. If Oberg really had examined Mark's
 >>paper as he claims, he would >have noticed that it was published
 >>in the Journal of Scientific Exploration in 1995, _eight_ years
 >>ago. Mark posted it on the NFS site to provide the background
 >>information to my >article.

 >I was indeed puzzled by the 'Spring 2003' date displayed on the
 >top of the pages. I am quite familiar with Carlotto's original
 >paper, and i am also familiar, as I'll bet Fleming is not, with
 >Wider's rebuttals also published in JSR but NOT, I notice,
 >mentioned in Carlotto's reposting.

This is sheer hypocrisy from Oberg, who responds to
presentations of evidence he doesn't like with ad hominem
attacks and evasions.

 >>Oberg's "examination" is mostly a rehashing of stuff he wrote
 >>years ago attacking Carlotto.
 >
 >Indeed my points are some of the same ones I made some time ago,
 >which had not, in the meantime, ever been answered.

Oberg's points have been answered in a way that leaves him
unable to respond except with the aforementioned dishonest
evasions and ad hominem attacks. His strategy of defense is a
telling indictment of the worthlessness of his claims as well as
of his lack of integrity.

 >>It seems that Oberg is renewing his old attacks only to worm
 >>his way out of dealing with the new, and quite devastating,
 >>evidence against his pet theory:

 >So we add mind-reading to the skills of Mr. Fleming? We are
 >still waiting for him to actually describe his credentials as a
 >person with any expertise or experience in space technology.
 >Since he has not provided them in response to requests, the
 >presumption may be that he has, in fact, none - as his
 >misunderstandings of spaceflight technology have already amply
 >demonstrated.

 >>No competent engineer or scientist would make a big deal about
 >>an arbitrary time reference frame chosen for clarity in a graph
 >>presented in a scientific paper.

 >Sure they would - especially when the graph is supposed to show
 >context of several events, such as thruster firings, sunrise,
 >etc. To show a graph of apparent object brightness without
 >allowing correlation of the changes with exterior events
 >relevant to illumination is inadequate.

The purpose of the graph was to show the temporal relationship
(or lack thereof) between image brightness and direction of
motion a star. If Oberg wants to know the Greenwich Mean Time of
the light pulse, he can refer to the NFS article I wrote, which
gives it (for both of the conflicting time displays). I guess
it's too much to ask, though.

 >>Oberg has apparently been immersed in the practice of the
 >>pseudoscience of anti-Ufology, as Stanton Friedman correctly
 >>describes it, for so long that he no longer knows how to read a
 >>graph.

 >The awkwardness remains that the change in angular
 >motion/direction associated with a thruster firing, or about
 >0.01 degrees per second, would be too small to be detected on
 >Carlotto's scale. Choice of scale therefore leads to a 'false
 >negative' regarding the prosaic hypothesis.

All I can say is that Oberg needs to take a refresher course
that will teach him how to do vector addition.

 >>The angular velocities of the stars in the video are around .05
 >>degrees per second, varying with position. (Oberg would have
 >>had to do a real analysis rather than his sham analysis to find
 >>out the angular rates of stars in the video).
 >
 >Unless the camera is rotating about the line-of-sight into the
 >FOV, I would indeed be curious to learn how different stars on
 >the same celestial sphere would have different true angular
 >rates. Orbital rate is approx 4 degrees per minute (at STS-48
 >altitude it was closer to 3.75 deg/min or 0.06 deg/sec, not
 >0.05).

Oberg already has "amply demonstrated" his incompetence at
reading graphs and in image analysis, but now he seems to have
lost whatever competence he once had in what's supposed to be
his specialty. (Normally, I'd let dumb mistakes like that pass,
but I'm not in a very charitable mood right now regarding James
"The Hatchet Man" Oberg). The shuttle was _rotating_ as it moved
around the Earth, and to keep the horizon in view, the axis of
rotation was the orbit plane normal. The celestial sphere
appeared to rotate relative to the shuttle's frame of reference
in such a way that the angular rate of motion of points on the
celestial sphere was greatest in the downtrack direction and
zero looking toward the axis of rotation. Had Oberg actually
done any _real_ analysis of the video, he would have noticed
that stars near the upper edge of the video were moving at a
measurably faster rate than stars like Polaris in the lower
right of the video, which were closer to the shuttle's axis of
rotation. The sun, as I noted previously, was moving at an even
slower angular rate of 0.036 degrees because it was near the
celestial equator while the shuttle's orbit had a high
inclination to the equator -- 57 degrees.

 >Distortion of the large-angular-area field-of-view could
 >lead to apparent variations in this rate.

The field of view was the usual 40 degrees in width.


 >The evidence for a rocket firing is a visual effect which has
 >been seen hundreds of times on downlink, plus the telemetry
 >record of the thruster firing, plus the telemetry charts of the
 >shuttle's attitude which show it gradually drifting towards the
 >pitch deadband over a period of several minutes until it reaches
 >it, at which point the autopilot triggers the corrective pulse.
 >Fleming's case apparently is based on the assumption that such
 >data is fabricated and such testimony is contrived.

The case is based on the _evidence_ that has been presented in
detail, both for the lens flare and for the time stamp
discrepancies. There are now _two_ completely independent lines
of evidence indicating the time stamps were in error. The first
was the difference in the predicted times of star transits of
the airglow shell. There's nothing I can do about Oberg's
failure to acknowledge it. He can pretend all he wants. It's a
free country.

To defend myself against Oberg's smears, I feel compelled to
point out that the computations involved in the star transit
predictions were not a simple matter. The Julian date and
sidereal times had to be accurately computed. I got the
equations for that from Internet resources. The geodetic
coordinates of the shuttle's had to be converted to geocentric
coordinates, taking into account the ellipsoid shape of the
Earth. The geocentric coordinates then had to be converted into
azimuth and elevation values with respect to the shuttle, and
vice versa. (I figured out the coordinate transformations myself
in order to get a better understanding of the basic problem, but
I later double-checked my equations with what's available on the
net).

The program was then verified against the output of several
different shareware satellite tracking programs to ensure that I
hadn't made any mistakes. And yeah, I did catch a few mistakes
and I corrected them. After going through all of that and after
Mark's publication of the article I wrote about it, I happened
to find the peculiar continuation of the time stamps past the
onset of loss of signal and the sudden jump in time between two
consecutive frames subsequent to re-acquisition of signal (LOS
and AOS, as Oberg would call them when he wants to impress
people by tossing out acronyms without explaining what they
mean). The LOS/AOS evidence is completely straightforward,
unlike the star transit information.

In contrast, Oberg has been claiming for years that there've
been "hundreds" of similar cases of shuttle thruster firings
causing objects to move in shuttle video images. And how many of
those hundreds of examples have been presented as evidence in
all the years he's been touting the rocket theory? Exactly ONE:
the STS-48 video itself.

 >Re the 'flare' explanation' - Fleming's compulsions about the
 >truth of his interpretations are understandable, especially when
 >rooted in a similar compulsion to avoid asking technical
 >questions from any of the technical experts in the systems he
 >claims self-taught expertise in. When asked about the simplest
 >of terms associated with this system - 'INCO', or Ku-band versus
 >S-band relative to TDRS LOS - Fleming passes over in silence all
 >opportunities to demonstrate even the most superficial
 >familiarity with simple facts.

 >Ditto the time stamp questions. Fleming's argument appears to be
 >specially designed by people who avoid primary knowledge, for
 >people who do not notice the absence of primary sources or
 >knowledge.

I'm not Johnny Olson, cub reporter for the Daily Planet; I don't
do interviews. I looked at the information available from the
appropriate sources and contacted people who were likely to give
honest, knowledgeable, and straightforward answers -- in other
words, a category that tends to exclude Oberg's acquaintances.
(Ironically enough, the scientist I contacted about the
stability of the airglow structure had done extensive work on
data from the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite that was
deployed by the Space Shuttle Discovery during the STS-48
mission.}

Apparently, Oberg's pal "Chuckles" the Instrumentation and
Communications Officer was too busy snickering to provide an
explanation to him that he could forward to all the benighted
people on this list as to why the time stamps continue past LOS
and why there is a jump of a minute and a half between two
consecutive frames that were both clearly from the period in
time _after_ the signal had been re-acquired.

BTW: "Instrumentation and Communications Officer" is what INCO
stands for. Do I win a prize??? And NASA stands for National
Aeronautics and Space Administration, except perhaps for people
like Obergand his friends who seem to think it really does mean
"Never A Straight Answer."

Oberg's habit of tossing around acronyms would set most people's
eyes to rolling, at least among the NASA employees that I'm
acquainted with. I suspect that it gives most people who read
this List a similar eye strain, too.







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   May > May 24

              Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Ballester Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:37:51 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:38:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'? - Ballester Olmos


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:19:09 -0500 (EST)
 >Subject: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?

 >At the following link to an article about a UFO seen in
 >Azerbaijan, that was seen by many people and captured on video, a
 >photo of Ed's UFO is displayed.

 >I _assume_ they just used his pic and this is not a photo of the
 >UFO seen over there, which would be quite significant.

Of course, this is a follow-up article and the journal used this
GB photograph as an illustration or graphical recourse, not to
repeat the original Baku UFO video image. An irrevelant issue.

V-J







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   May > May 25

                              Abydos Helicopter

From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:05:21 -0400
Subject: Abydos Helicopter


You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm


Best regards,

Jiri Mruzek






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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:01:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:08:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Rimmer


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:47:53 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >Hello Ian, All,

 >Ya know... you've been saying the same thing over and over again
 >about abductee reports and UFO witness testimony in just about
 >all of your posts. You've been repeating it like a mantra.

I think phrases such as "research by proclamation", "noisy
negativists", "tells us more about XXX that it does about YYY",
are rather more mantra-like than the points that Ian Rogers has
been making

 >Because you're fairly new to the List, I'm going to take the
 >time to address them one at a time. Under ordinary
 >circumstances, I would simply point you to the UpDates archive
 >and counsel you to do your homework. To read some of what
 >has already been written in response to the very same or
 >similar remarks from a few others in the past.

I'm not so new to the List, so forgive me if I ingnore this
patronising nonsense.

 >You chant:

 >>The reason most people are wary of UFOs and Ufology is because
 >>bold statements are being made without a lot of follow-up
 >>evidence.

 >Not true at all. I gather you don't own copies of Jerry Clarke's
 >UFO encyclopedia, or Dick Hall's UFO Evidence books. In terms of
 >abduction material, apparently you haven't read C.D.D.B. Bryan's
 >book about the abduction conference that was held at M.I.T. in
 >the early 90's, or any of Temple University historian, David
 >Jacobs' books. Everything written by people like Ray Fowler and
 >Budd Hopkins has thoroughly and meticulously investigated.

Amazingly I have now managed to get hold of a copy of one of
Dick Hall's UFO Evidence books. I found it in a church jumble-
sale, price 4 pounds (along with an early edition Adamski and a
signed copy of Tim Good's book on Adamski - the signature added
50 pence to the price!) It's a fairly comprehensive catalogue of
sighting reports, but little in the way of what I'd call actual
evidence, and it shows a superstitious reverence for reports
from policemen, military personnel and other 'trained
observers'.

 >Not to mention the Sturrock panel report!

John, maybe you should read some of the UpDates archive. Lots of
people were unimpressed by Sturrock, not just the usual-suspect
pelicanists.

 >Methinks that _you_ may be the one making "bold" and maybe even
 >'uninformed' statements. All of the people I mentioned above,
 >including quite a few I failed to mention, are reputable,
 >respectable individuals with experience and credentials.

Since when has respectability stopped people from being wrong?
Let's examine the evidence, not the personalities. If ad-hominem
attacks are to be deplored, surely ad-hominem support is just as
unhelpful>

 >No "evidence" accompanies abduction reports?

 >How about; multiple witnesses,

Such as? And don't give us Linda Napolitano. There were no other
witnesses. Claims, yes; witnesses, no.

 >ground trace evidence,

You might be able to have a ground trace of a UFO landing, but
surely not of a UFO abduction. What ground traces of an
*abduction* did you have in mind?

 >scoop
 >marks, fully healed scars and bruises among other physical
 >anomalies. All considered to be "evidence" is in the eye of the
 >beholder.

In the eye of the committed beholder, yes, but much less so for
the objective researcher, who can suggest dozens of other
explanations for such marks

 >But in the fully opened eyes of the aforementioned
 >individuals, there is enough compelling evidence to warrant
 >their dedicating decades of their lives to the full time
 >investigation of a phenomenon that you claim 'most people are
 >wary of.'

So we *have* to believe in abductions because Bud Hopkins has
devoted years of his life to the subjects, and he couldn't
possibly be wasting his time. Not too convincing an argument to
me.

 >BTW, the latest polls say that you are dead wrong. More than 50%
 >of people think UFOs are real and that the gubbamint is hiding
 >information, while 21% believe that abductions are real.

 >So what do you mean by "most people?"

Presumably the 79% who believe abductions are not real. T

 >"Most people" that _you_ talk to? Because if you're talking
 >about the general public, you couldn't be farther off-base.

If only 50% of people believe "UFOs are real", I am surprised.
Even I believe UFOs are real, I just don't belive they are
flying saucers. The question "Do you belive in UFOs" in
meaningless. This is research by referendum. I do not make up my
mind simply by looking at opinion polls and assuming they must
be right. > >>Alien abducting us, > >See my last response. Many
of the witnesses you think are not >credible include people from
all walks of life, professions, >educational levels and social
strata. The one big mistake you >are making is that you tend to
generalize your statements >regarding abductees and UFO
witnesses. You have to take people >and cases one at a time,
Ian.

Once again the naive belief that if you can hold down a job, do
not wear a Napoleon hat or walk around with a big bag labelled
"swag" on your back, everything you say must be the literal
truth. What has a person's social strata, profession or
education got to do with their belief that they have or have not
been abducted?

 >>Unless you've got the proof to back these things up, I
 >>don't know why anyone would expect me or any other sound
 >>person to believe them.

 >As I have already listed above, _many_ "sound" people believe
 >the witnesses and think there is enough evidence to justify
 >serious investigation. Unless you're will to call folks like
 >Dick Hall, Stan Freidman, Jerry Clarke, John Mack, Ray Fowler
 >etc. etc. etc. "unsound"... once again, I think your 'opinion'
 >does not take the real facts of the matter into account.

 >The truth is; that _many_ well educated, credentialed and
 >experienced people are involved full-time in the investigation
 >of matters that you claim don't have enough 'evidence' to
 >justify a second look by "sound individuals."

Hmmm... "Sound", what exactly does that mean? I certainly think
a great deal of what has been written by the Famous Five you
name above has been unsound. Some more than others, but
m'learned friends may be listening!

 >BTW, my testimony in a criminal case would be enough to help
 >get someone convicted.

Uncorroborated? No it wouldn't.

 >Some of the abductees you are lumping
 >together as not being credible/believable, include;
 >psychiatrists, doctors, lawyers, police officers, and even a
 >couple of high ranking military people. Talk to Budd Hopkins or
 >Dave Jacobs and ask them _before_ spouting off generalizations
 >about how unreliable abductee testimony is.

Oh come on! In what other walk of life are we supposed to belive
everything that these people tell us must be true? This is just
endless appeals to authority. Because a guy's got a good job, we
must belive him?

 >Like I said Ian, you need to do some homework _before_ making
 >the kind of inaccurate and unfounded generalizations that you
 >have made (repeatedly) about UFOs and abduction since joining
 >the List.

UFO research does exist beyond this List, you know.

 >I didn't write this response to debate you on these points.
 >Only to point out how wrong and uninformed you are in your one
 >size fits all, broad brush statements. Study, educate yourself
 >by getting to know the researchers and some of their subjects
 >better before you broadcast such sweeping opinions in public.
 >
 >All blacks are not any one way. Neither are Jews or abductees
 >for that matter! Capiche?

But doctors, military people, psychiatrists, lawyers, police
officers, etc. are all reliable? As we say over here, "pull the
other leg, it's got bells on."

 >John Velez
 >UFO witness, Abductee


--
John Rimmer
Ufologist, Sceptic.






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                      CI: A Martian's-Eye View of Earth

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 16:30:09 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:09:47 -0400
Subject: CI: A Martian's-Eye View of Earth


Cydonian Imperative
5-24-03

A Martian's-Eye View of Earth
by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)


By now, many people have seen the quietly awe-inspiring sequence
of images taken of the Solar System by the Mars Global Surveyor.
The most popular of these images, naturally, is a poignant look
back to Earth, our home planet, featuring a partially
illuminated Moon against the timeless backdrop of interplanetary
space.

[image]

The Earth and Moon viewed from Mars orbit.

Like the classic photograph of the Earth from space taken by
astronauts (and featured in a recent issue of "Rolling Stone"
devoted to "American icons"), the MGS image helps to show how
overwhelmingly alone and vulnerable we are. Against such cosmic
scope, the bickering, bigotry and violence that define
terrestrial headlines seem laughably insignificant. Looking at
this image induces an all-too-rare sense of calm: a moment of
uncorrupted Zen lucidity provided by the cool lens of 21st
century technology.

For all of its beauty, the image confronts us with a fierce
challenge: Where do we go from here? Do we dare expand our reach
into outer (and inner) space? Can we rouse ourselves from
solipsism before we no longer have the opportunity to better the
human condition?

[image]

The sun rises over Mars.

A striking animation recorded by the Pathfinder lander instills
similar longings. The shrunken sun seen rising above the harsh
Martian horizon is proof that humans can extend their senses to
other worlds; it follows that we can follow our robotic
emissaries in the flesh. Who could resist watching the sun rise
over an alien world, or peer through a telescope to see the
Earth itself tumbling through the void?

As argued previously, I don't think human intelligence is
capable of enduring the next millennium unless radical proactive
measures are taken to ensure our survival. Space colonization is
a vital component in any agenda to overcome otherwise inevitable
disaster.

The Earth-from-Mars image is a postcard from our
increasingly exasperated collective unconscious. We
should look long and hard while we still have the
chance.

-end-







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   May > May 25

                      CEs With Aliens & Other Fallacies

From: Eustequio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:47:35 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:15:27 -0400
Subject: CEs With Aliens & Other Fallacies

Source: Morning Star UK - London

http://www.morningstar.co.uk/?r=news/analysis.asp?articleid=24118&validfrom03-05
-21

2003-05-21


Close Encounters With Aliens And Other Fallacies

Daniel Ben-Ami

If objective statistics are riddled with pitfalls those which
measure inherently vague concepts such as confidence are more
problematic. It is even harder to interpret individuals stated
preferences than movements in prices.

Bedlam Asset Management provided a useful reminder of this point
in a recent note which quoted a survey showing that about 0.5%
of Americans said that they had sex with aliens. In other words
according to the survey about 1.4 million Americans believe they
have had some kind of sexual encounter with an extra-
terrestrial.

Interpreting such statistics is not easy. One possibility is
that 1.4 million Americans really have had sex with an alien
presumably along with a giant government cover-up - while
another is that there are well over a million deranged people in
the US.

A more likely explanation is the old maxim that if you ask a
silly question you get a silly answer. When confronted by
someone with a clipboard asking whether you have had sex with an
alien it must be difficult to resist the temptation of answering
in the affirmative.

The point is that without knowing more about the survey it is
difficult to draw definite conclusions. How representative was
the sample of people questioned? If it was conducted at a UFO
convention it is hardly likely to be an accurate cross section
of the American public. How were the questions phrased? When was
the survey conducted?

Sexual encounters with aliens may seem a long way from fund
management but there are some parallels. Like any subjective
surveys those based on fund manager views, including those
conducted by Morningstar, should be treated with caution.

This is particularly true when there is likely to be an element
of wishful thinking in the responses. Few fund managers are
likely to admit, often even to themselves, that it is possible
that the markets in which they invest could fall over a
significant period.

None of this is meant to imply that statistics are of no use. On
the contrary, the development of statistics is one of the great
achievements of civilisation. It has enabled individuals to go
beyond common sense or educated guesswork to get a much better
grasp of the social and natural worlds.

The point is that interpreting statistics properly is a great
skill. Collecting them is simply the starting point of any
analysis.


Daniel Ben-Ami is the senior editor at Morningstar UK

daniel.ben-ami@morningstar.co.uk









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   May > May 25

                       More Calves Mutilated Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:51:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:18:42 -0400
Subject: More Calves Mutilated Argentina




SOURCE: El Diario de la Pampa
DATE: May 24, 2003

TWO MORE CALVES FOUND MUTILATED

Field researchers specializing in the subject of animal
mutilations--Raul Chaves and Ester Urban, pointed out that "so
far this year we have accounted for some 60 mutilations in La
Pampa and Buenos Aires." They noted that "thanks to the fact
that they already know us and know that we research the subject,
cattle ranchers inform us when mutilated animals are discovered.
We then obtain samples which we send to the University of Buenos
Aires and document everything on videotape."

They referred to the two most recent cases -- on May 16th and
17th, respectively -- between 45 and 30 kilometers away from
Santa Rosa. The first of these took place in the "El Martin"
ranch 45 km northwest of the Pampan capital and involved a year-
old calf weighing 200 kgs.

On the left side of its head, the absence of the outer ear was
evident along with the entire inner ear, its eye, and an oval-
shaped flap of skin, measuring some 30 cm. in diameter. The
absence of vulva, edge of the anus, hyoides, larynx, pharynx and
a segment of the trachea, as well as part of the upper muscular
mass, was also noted.

The entire animal found on May 17 was found on a rural property
located 30 kilometers north of Santa Rosa. It was a 2 year-old
calf weighing 250 kg. missing half of its tongue with a
cauterized incision and missing the left ocular orb. The field
researchers noted that in both cases samples were secured for
subsequent study and analysis by professionals. They invite
those interested in the subject to visit their website at:

http://www.ciufos.com

where information collected on mutilated animals can be found.

===============================

Translation (C) 2003. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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   May > May 25

              Argentine Researchers Find Intraterrestrial Waves

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:06:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:22:26 -0400
Subject: Argentine Researchers Find Intraterrestrial Waves



Source: Diario El Tribuno de Salta
Date: May 24, 2003
http://www.eltribuno.com.ar/salta/20030523_213309.php


Ufologists Pick Up Intraterrestrial Waves


** Ufologists recorced electromagnetic signals and radiation
emanating from an underground source**


Two scientists affiliated to the Fundacion Instituto Biofisico
de Investigaciones (FICI) headquartered in La Matanza and
directed by Pedro Romaniuk, one of the most well-known analysts
of the UFO phenomenon and an author of 20 books on the subject,
claimed having picked up radioactive signatures, microwaves,
levels of electricity and oscillations originating from the
depths of the earth.

Omar Hesse and Jorge Millstein surveyed the mountains
surrounding Cachi last week -- 157 km from the capital and 2,280
meters above sea level. After applying a Russian tester in the
vicinity of the Nevado de Cachi, they concluded that the signals
are not natural in origin, and rather originate by machinery
operated by intelligent beings (sic).

"The oscillations clearly indicate that kilometers beneath the
surface there is activity: alternating electrical waves, which
means a power source," said Hesse. "This could mean engines," he
added.

The area was not chosen at random: it was based on 4 film
recordings made by local mountaineer Antonio Zuleta between June
2000 and November 2002. All of them show analogous images--
strange, swiftly moving lights which appear to "plunge" into the
ground at the same point. The researchers calculated the site's
location and accompanied by Zuleta himself, reported to the area
some 8 km to the southwest.

"We will have to return with equipment of higher sensitivity and
equipped with depth rods (sic) to achieve greater precision in
the data," observed Millstein. However, despite the magnitude of
their discovery, members of the FICI were not impressed. "It's
just that this is one of the hottest areas of the planet
regarding extraterrestrial activity. It's a band that stretches
from La Poma to Cayafate and which has roused interest all over
the world, as we have attested through our worldwide
investigation network, where consultations regarding the area
are recurrently made." The two researchers estimate that
Zuleta's recordings and the signals recorded from the depths of
the earth correspond to a technology not native to our world.

"To those of us in this field, the possibility that vessels may
penetrate the earth is nothing new in the Andes, as depicted by
numerous stone records from Ecuador to Mendoza," they concluded.

[Translator's note: our readers will recall that Zuleta's
findings were hotly disputed a year or so ago. The FICI
organization's leader is also one of South America's better-
known contactees]


===============================

Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








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   May > May 25

                        Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <Mclearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 03:08:27 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:25:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Goldstein


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:16:57 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:21:02 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>From: Michael Harman <rocketman5047@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>>>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 ><snip>

 >>Because something can be duplicated does _not_ mean that all
 >>objects are as you think they are. For instance - anyone can
 >>duplicate a UFO on film or video, and before I eccept your
 >>theory you would have to go to the New Mexico cave (at least),
 >>tape a rod and capture the same rod (as an insect) all on tape.

 >>As you are debunking and purporting these things then the onus
 >>is upon yourselves to prove your point in the way I outline
 >>here. I know rods are real and are somewhat of a menace not only
 >>to Humans but to sheep especially[!] Not being a conspiracy
 >>theorist I will not outline the reason for the debunk, although
 >>I could do so.

 >Dear Col:

 >Sheep? What about goats or the vegetable kingdom for that
 >matter. Is my lemon tree at any risk from rods?

 >Worried in Redwood City, CA

 >- Larry Hatch

Hello Colin,

I had set your last message aside to write a response after I read
today's messages. I am also am 9 hours later than Larry.

Thanks Larry,

I am sure you definitely have a need for such vital information.
Soon

I will back on that beautiful turf in that part of California.
When I sold my mountain property at Last Chance the new owner
decided to produce highly valued mohair from the ranch. He
brought in a large herd of Mos, they produce prestigious award
winning mohair. Each Mo is specially bred to produce a dozen
sweaters at one time. Once they were able to eliminate knitting
from the business plan we started reaping overabundant profits.
I own part of them and I get a dividend each month. If rods are
hazardous to Mos then the United States economy will head
straight down, constantly tightening in its tailspin until it
hits bottom.

Larry, Mos are the number two product in the state, bringing in
nearly as much income as growing marijuana. As a result of the
Drug War many people are switching to Mos. Mo power to them!

Colin, the onus is on you, the you that is making the claim that
real flying "rods"are in a cave in New Mexico. Instead of
writing the "lets dance around the May flowers" type of post,
the onus is on you to provide the evidence that may suffice to
prove your claim case.

In plain English I am only representing my own views and to me
it is time for you to put up or shut up. It is up to you to
gather the evidence. If they are in a cave can't you pick up
some of their bodies? Can't you catch any in a net? Are these
somehow nonmaterial but magically show up on videotape? If you
don't have any hard evidence and don't plan to gather such why
don't you please admit so? And if you know what a rod would do
to a Mo, let's hear it from you, rodsman.

If you do not gather hard evidence to prove your assertions I
suggest that you need to spend months of extended field research
inside that cave in New Mexico. Certain indigenous mushrooms may
aid your observation, as they do for local medicine men and
Shamen. Back in the sixties we did that sort of thing with
Shamen and peyote.

Don't forget to always be ready with your net.


Happy trails,

Josh










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   May > May 25

                    Chile: The Skeptical Wing of Ufology

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:34:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:28:19 -0400
Subject: Chile: The Skeptical Wing of Ufology


SOURCE: Terra.cl and PlanetaUFO
DATE: May 23, 2003

THE SKEPTICAL WING OF UFOLOGY IN CHILE
by Roderick Bowen

**Although not well known, there is a branch of "critical
ufology" in our country that aided by its own means, has become
one of the most controversial aspects of the national ufological
scene**

SANTIAGO DE CHILE, May 23--- In July 2002, Fundacion Anomalia,
one of Spain's most renown institutions devoted to research into
para-scientific subjects, published a new issue of its acclaimed
"Cuadernos de Ufologia". Half of this issue was fully devoted to
reproducing the first part of an extensive dossier on Chilean
ufology.

This material consigned the work of a young journalist, Diego
Zuniga, who has for some years now published, along with
attorney Sergio S=E1nchez, the longest-lived and feared bulletin
of Chilean ufology, entitled "La nave de los locos" (Ship of
Fools), a skeptical publication which has managed to survive
over time and whose pages have included works by renowned
foreign researchers, such as Mexico's Luis Ruiz Noguez, the
U.S.'s Philip J. Klass, or Spain's Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos.

The journal, produced by Zuniga and published in Spain, was not
covered by the national press nor did it achieve the level of a
promotional campaign even when its statements caused true
irritation in the better-informed UFO circles, not only because
it was the most complete vision on the [Chilean] ufological
history that had reached Spain, but because it was the least
kindly toward the investigation of the UFO phenomenon in Chile.

Unfortunately only 8 issues were received in [Spain] and  were
rapidly distributed among those whose work also appeared in
Zuniga's publication.

While this young journalist is unknown to the public at large
and his name does not have the prominence of reseaechers such as
Rodrigo Fuenzalida (AION), Cristian Riffo (Ovnivision) or
Alberto Urquiza (Geo), it was Zuniga who took care to write
about the rights and wrongs of Chilean ufology from his personal
vision of the situation in an exhaustive report of over 60
pages.

Zuniga has been able to articulate in Chile what is known all
over the world a "critical ufology" line, fully agreeing with
the approach to the phenomenon set forth by Fundaci=F3n Anomal=EDa.
In his own words, Zuniga's introduction begins: "Chile is
usually presented by some of its most enthusiastic ufologists as
a world beacon regarding cases. We all know that this is untrue
and that the Chilean case history featured on the international
level is very limited. But when you, dear reader, enter this
dossier, you will find that the wealth and variety of these
Chilean cases is indeed rather broad and interesting, even
though contradicting the legend of the "sightings-producing
country".

[Zuniga] later goes on to break down each one of the cases,
research groups and researchers who have characterized Chile's
UFO history. Upon concluding his report, he asks: "what is the
true field of study of ufology? A chunk of missing soil? A woman
who dreams of ET's? A myth that blooms before our noses without
our having done enough to leave a record of it? The answer
appears to be in this direction, and the Chilean events appear
to be a good example of it."

Another researcher who has followed this critical line is Cesar
Parra, who holds degrees in Political and Administrative
Science, and who also had the opportunity to present a brief
article in the "Cuadernos de Ufologia" dossier.

While Parra is less skeptical, his critique of ufology and the
phenomenon is not so, which is evident in the following item
drawn from his article in the Spanish publication: "We should
not be surprised that even today there is such an opportunity
for foolishness in Chilean ufology that leads most of the
domestic researchers of the field to believe that it is
inseparately linked to the most hard-line, 1950's contacteeism,
as if half a century had elapsed in vain."  He later adds: "What
is suprising is that Chile--more than any other country in the
world, excepting Spain and the U.S. -- this retrograde
persepective of ufology permeates the military establishment,
giving rise to numerous cases in which the aremed forces have
interpreted the phenomenon on a very basic level, with a
commonality that would startle any civilized country."

In another publication--Revelaci=F3n No. 50 magazine, year 2000,
in the article entitled: "Domestic and International Ufologists
Exposed", Cesar notes: "Chilean ufology lacks a "father" or
founding guide. There isn't a personality comparable to
Argentina's Fabio Zerpa or Peru's Sixto Paz -- someone who
swallows the story one hundred percent and then makes it
credible and fascinating to the common man."

As we can see, there is a little recognized segment of domestic
ufology--a group of professionals who is sparking conversation
beyond our borders and represents a critical vision of the UFO
phenomenon and of those who become involved in its study.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Guillermo Gimenez







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   May > May 25

              Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:35:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:31:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - McCoy


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:41:58 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us - Stevenson
 >
 >
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us
 >
 >>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:10:42 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >>>>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:06:04 -0300
 >>>>Subject: Mars Probe Takes A Long Shot - Of Us

 >>>http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/23/1053585701484.html

 >>>It doesn't show much, but I still have to say wow.
 >>>It's a beautiful picture.

 >>I think the fact that it doesn't show much makes it so poignant;
 >>it shows us in a cosmic context, something we can never get
 >>enough of.

 >Having taken a look I yearned to be there for some reason :-)


Hello, all,

My only regret is that we are not on Mars (looking back at that
magnificent perspective,) and not tyring to figure out an
efficent way to get to Apha Centauri.


GT McCoy







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   May > May 25

                      UFO Encounter Near Booger Bottom

From: Eustequio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:46:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:40:33 -0400
Subject: UFO Encounter Near Booger Bottom


Source: Gwinnett Daily Post - Gwinnett County, Georgia

http://www.gwinnettdailyonline.com/GDP/archive/article0650289C97224011BE43E69835
01A229.asp

By Laura Ingram

LILBURN - Round red objects about the size of silver dollars
suddenly appeared and seemed to scan three people traveling home
in a Ford SUV one night last month.

They didn't see a mother ship hovering above them on a rural
stretch of highway called "Booger Bottom" near Greenville, Ga.
No little green men popped in to chat. The 25-second visit was
not your stereotypical sighting of an unidentified flying
object. It was certainly no laughing matter for a 50-year-old
Tucker man and his brother and sister-in-law from Warm Springs.

The 73-year-old female witness, who remains unnamed, went to the
police and the GBI for help, but they didn't want any part of
it. She called the National UFO Reporting Center and was hooked
up with the Mutual UFO Network of Georgia.

MUFONGA doesn't turn away people with odd stories. MUFONGA
investigators use a scientific method to eliminate publicity
seekers and natural occurrences from true unexplainable
incidents. If they can't find a explanation for what occurred,
they at least want to record the phenomenon.

MUFONGA investigators Olivia Newton of Lilburn and Jim Clifford
of Lawrenceville were assigned the case.

Newton noted none of the witnesses gave them any reason to doubt
the account.

"We watch for body language, any discrepancies," Newton
recalled. "They looked at us right in the eye and were very
forthright. They said, `Surely you have heard of this before.'"

In her five years of investigating UFO reports, Newton had heard
about a woman being paralyzed while a hovering object came
toward her skylight and a 2-year-old boy who was being stalked
by a possible spirit.

"Most of them turn out to have natural explanations," Newton
said, adding that Venus is often mistaken for a spaceship.

Newton had never heard a story like this one.

"They all said it was not of this world. They felt it was
intelligent. They felt they had sought them out for the sole
purpose of scanning them. Scan. That was the word they used,"
Newton said.

The trio was upset by the experience. The woman insisted they
learn what the red objects were.

"She said, `I've got to know what this is. Are they coming back
after us? What if they cart us off?'" recalled Newton.

When Newton and Clifford met with the Tucker man at a local
Starbucks to discuss the case, he was visibly shaken, she said.
He too refused to have his name used.

The witnesses called the approximate 50 red objects that
appeared inside the car "lights" but described them as solid to
Newton. They said they only occurred on their bodies until they
vanished instantly.

The brother of the Tucker man told investigators he saw a red
swirling object next to the vehicle on the driver's side before
the lights appeared. He was sitting in the back seat facing his
brother, Newton said.

The Tucker man's testimony on the NURORC's Web site at
www.UFOcenter.com said, "The floor board again was red hue as it
was in the back seat. I looked out the window and over the dash
board onto the hood and did not see any activity as was being
awesomely and erratically displayed in the front and back seat."

According to the investigation so far, a train was not traveling
on the nearby tracks. No airplanes were flying over the
Greenville skies that night, Newton said.

Newton and Clifford walked around the area. No houses were close
enough to the road to reflect light into the car. Newton said
they couldn't find an area where practical jokers could have
hidden and focused red lights constantly on the people for 25
seconds as the vehicle traveled 35 mph.

To help solve the mystery, Newton plans to seek a geologist's
opinion and look into the origins of why that area is called
Booger Bottom.

Locals told her the first name was once used for the "Boogey
man," and the area was called that to scare off government
officials searching for moonshiners. Newton wants to make sure
the area was not named for an earlier incident, which might be
similar to what the witnesses experienced.








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   May > May 26

                      Re: Edwards AFB 1965 - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 18:46:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:19:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Edwards AFB 1965 - Goldstein


 >From: Joachim Koch <koch@kochkyborg.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:35:55 +0100
 >Subject: Edwards AFB 1965

 >Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:27:00 GMT
 >From: lists@kochkyborg.de <Joachim Koch>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Edwards AFB 1965

 >Hello List,

 >While dealing with the Incident at Edwards AFB on October 7,
 >1965, I am wondering about the ranking of this encounter among
 >the UFO community.

 >Isn't it proof that ET was/is visiting us?

 >I have updated my website regarding this incident. Once you have
 >entered it, please click on 'News'.


Hello Joachim,

I saved this message of yours back in April when I first saw it.
I also had hoped that some Listerions would comment on it. When
the audio tape came out I wanted to order it and I thought I
would get back to the US for a while back then, so I didn't get
it.

When you posted your question I examined it but unfortunately
because of low money I am still using the same computer for the
last seven years and I can't listen to or download your sound
file. At the end of June I am going back to California and I
will buy a new computer. If it is still up then I will finally
hear what Sam Sherman put together. That is why I didn't post
anything yet on the list. I don't have much to say until I hear
how the tape was put together.

His Edwards UFO site is not working anymore. I sent him an email
and I have not received a response. I asked George Filer what he
knows but he said he hasn't communicated with him for many
months.

So there it sits. In the early part of July I will be visiting
Dick Hall and I will listen to the audio and discuss it with
him. I think what I will do now is see if I can find out on a
film website whether Sam Sherman is still alive.

Take care,
Josh


[An interview with Sam Sherman is available on-line at:

  http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/

  ebk]









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   May > May 26

               Re: CI: A Curious Cydonia Formation Revisited -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:45:30 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: A Curious Cydonia Formation Revisited -


Cydonian Imperative
5-25-03

A Curious Cydonia Formation Revisited
by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 38)


When the Mars Global Surveyor returned its first image of the
Face in 1998 (the now-infamous "catbox") it also revealed small-
  scale anomalies just barely visible in Viking imagery. One of
these was a feature dubbed the "Coathanger" by Professor Stanley
V. McDaniel. Others observed that the "Coathanger" was roughly
dolphin-shaped, prompting much esoteric theorizing. The
Coathanger lies in the immediate vicinity of the Face,
justifying a careful examination; are we seeing evidence of
engineering or geology?

The most peculiar aspect of the Coathanger is its row of bright
"notches," thought to be composed of ice or, if artificial,
perhaps a form of glass. The Coathanger is seen in context
below. Note nearby bright dome-shaped mounds.

[image]

The regularly spaced notches appear quite artificial-looking and
remain unexplained. If natural, they would seem to be a more
refined version of the various ribbed "tubes" found elsewhere on
Mars. (Similar bright markings can be seen on the edge of the
mesa just above the Coathanger, although these are scarcely as
elaborate or extensive as the so-called "tubes." Similar
markings can be found at the base of the City Pyramid.)

[image]

Luckily, the Face image released by Malin Space Science Systems
on April 4 shows the Coathanger at much better resolution. The
anomalous notches are still evident, as are nearby deviations in
the landscape. It's interesting that one such deviation, looking
something like an shallow, elongated "earthworks," appears in
close proximity to the Coathanger. This tends to suggest a
common origin for the two features. The Coathanger itself looks
little like its namesake. It resembles a dolphin or fish see in
profile, the dorsal fin of which is elevated above the rest of
the formation. Close inspection suggests that the elevated
portion may shelter a porous, highly degraded material unlike
that of the surrounding desert, although better images are
needed to prove or disprove this. The white notches line the
morphology's base like an enormous ruler.

It's conceivable that the Coathanger is a weathered fragment of
a once-enclosed structure. The approximate 45 degree angle
formed by the aforementioned "earthworks" suggests a triangular
enclosure whose roof has long since succumbed to erosion.
Richard Hoagland offered this possibility (presented as fact) in
a 1998 photo-essay in which he referred to the Coathanger as a
"tetrahedral ruin." As the new image makes clear, there is
nothing even vaguely "tetrahedral" here -- only a few suggestive
remnants. If the Coathanger once had a pyramidal roof, we might
expect to find a third, flanking "earthworks"; the presence of a
perfect equilateral triangle on Mars might sway even committed
skeptics. But the presumed third "wall" is missing.

In conclusion, the Coathanger's reality remains unknown. If the
Face is artificial, it makes sense to examine neighboring
landforms for evidence of deliberate alteration. The Coathanger
may well be an architectural ruin. Unfortunately, while the new
image emphasizes the feature's strangeness, it doesn't tell us
anything fundamentally new.

-end-






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   May > May 26

                           Re: Baku Photo - Stuart

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:42:32 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:50:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Baku Photo - Stuart


 >From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:37:51 +0200 (CEST)
 >Subject: Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?

 >>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:19:09 -0500 (EST)
 >>Subject: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?

 >>At the following link to an article about a UFO seen in
 >>Azerbaijan, that was seen by many people and captured on video,
 >>a photo of Ed's UFO is displayed.

 >>I _assume_ they just used his pic and this is not a photo of
 >>the UFO seen over there, which would be quite significant.



 >Of course, this is a follow-up article and the journal used
 >this GB photograph as an illustration or graphical recourse,
 >not to repeat >the original Baku UFO video image. An irrevelant
 >issue.

 >V-J

No, it is not "an irrelevant issue." It was worth the effort to
ascertain for certain that the UFO pictured was just a prop and
not a UFO identical to the Gulf Breeze UFO allegedly
photographed by Ed Walters.

I know that the poorer publications especially do this quite
frequently without labeling the photo thinking, I assume, that
the average reader won't know the difference. The old "UFO
Universe" mag was notorious for doing this.

This same newspaper (Baku Today) also featured an article from a
scientist who claimed that G. W. Bush allocated 3 billion
dollars to UFO research after, according to one scientist, the
Columbia was shot down by aliens for brnging weapons into space.

Still, it was worth checking out the source of the photo, just
in case.

Regards,

Charles Stuart







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   May > May 26

                         Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

From: Victor Viggiani <victor@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2003 08:22:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:56:20 -0400
Subject: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01



Disclosure Dialogue
Vol I Edition 1
May 2003

Introduction:

Based on the overwhelming mass of evidential material both
within the UFO research community as well as within the
sequestered data residing in government archives, Disclosure of
an Extraterrestrial presence on planet Earth has become the
ultimate Terrestrial Imperative for the human race as we
discover ourselves, the universe and those who share it with us.

While there are many in the UFO community who continue to
provide the indispensable and provocative research and analysis
of data and those who launch independent initiatives to gain
access to information about ETI, a void of in-action in the UFO
community clearly exists. The excellent research mentioned above
is absolutely crucial as we develop our database. The experts do
a fine job. However for the most part, it ends there. This
opinion is substantiated by the fact that few knocks on the door
of government echo it the hallways of the international print
media, the ubiquitous electronic media or our secluded judicial
system.

As a contributing editor to Strange Days Indeed for over four
years and a witness to the immense quantity of data, research,
opinions and the flow of ideas among the international UFO
community, it has become my conviction that the UFO/ETI issue
recently reached a critical juncture.

The Bar Has Been Raised

To be more specific, this juncture was actually reached when one
of the monthly contributors on SDI, Stephen G. Bassett took a
risk. He put himself forward as a candidate for election to the
United States Congress. This courageous and selfless act raised
the bar for us all in the UFO
community.

This author knows that Stephen Bassett would neither want this
author, nor anyone else to overstate or dwell upon the
importance of his decision to contest the covert and incestuous
ideology permeating every layer of government secrecy. Raise the
UFO/ETI issue in the megalopolis of American politics? Who would
have ever taken on such a venture? Stephen Bassett's
contribution indeed sent a message to everyone in the UFO
community and well as to those on the Hill who whined a quiet
mantra for his defeat.

The issue of an Extraterrestrial presence on Earth and its
salacious cover-up was now fair game. It was open season for all
who wanted to know the truth.

The message put forward by Stephen Bassett now makes Disclosure
the ethical responsibility of all who know about and profess the
essence of UFO/ETI contact. The message said that one cannot be
in possession of revelatory information and allow it to reside
in futility on computer hard-drives or in government archives.
Neither should it become the fodder of internal wrangling, or
intellectual posturing hidden behind a for-profit-motive or
personal aggrandisement. This information must be acted upon.
That is what Stephen Bassett did, amidst what amounted to
virtually insurmountable odds.

Since this action by one person, reinforced by almost
insurmountable evidential material in the possession of the UFO
community, Disclosure has become a 'terrestrial imperative' for
all who claim involvement in the UFO/ETI question.

Risk, Outreach, Preparation And Public Discourse

And we, my friends are now in-charge of this imperative.

This imperative, if not pursued and voiced publicly in an
articulate and authentic manner by those who know the truth,
will see history make obvious and judge our injudicious use of
revelatory information as moribund and irresponsible. We cannot
and should not wait for other Stephen Bassetts to come forward.
Those kinds of risk takers are few and far between. Every step
must be taken not to mishandle the truth or we become as
complicit as those who keep it hidden.

What to do?

This author has come to believe that it is now time for the
entire UFO community (i.e. all those who are involved in
research, analysis, data collection, sightings reports, etc.) to
actively come forward to engage in a concerted and proactive
global effort to initiate and raise the level of public
discourse about the UFO/ETI question on an international level.

Let me re-state that... just for emphasis: '(_all those who are
involved in research, analysis, data collection, sightings
reports, etc.) to actively come forward to engage in a concerted
and proactive global effort to initiate and raise the level of
public discourse about the UFO/ETI question on an international
level.' It reads better the second time for some reason_but I
digress.

What could this all really mean?

Well, over the dais of UFO Updates and the on-air rostrum of
STRANGE DAYS INDEED we will discover this together, in
DISCLOSURE DIALOGUE. We will try to unravel what needs to be
done with the huge repository of data and research amassed by
the UFO community (ufology if you will).

We will try to respond to such questions as:

Do we allow this data to sit, fester and yes, masticate it among
ourselves until it's in tiny bits that mean nothing to anyone?

Do we continue to permit the regurgitation of this fascinating
public information to portray the UFO community as space
fanatics among the press and the general public?

Or do we actually begin a collegial process of doing something
radical with this information by building professional and
powerful international coalitions of activists to knock on the
doors of government, the press, science and international
judicial systems and demand, not ask to come in and chat?

I have some of ideas... how about you?

Let Disclosure Dialogue in on what you'd like to see done and
what you're prepared to do about it.

Send your response to UFO UpDates and listen to Strange Days...
Indeed each Saturday at 21:00 hrs Eastern on CFRB AM 1010 News
Talk Radio in Toronto, in Montreal over CJAD 800 AM or over the
world wide web at:

http://www.cfrb.com


Respectfully,

Victor Viggiani

EXCERPTS FROM Disclosure Dialogue Vol 1 Edition 2

-Outreach into the fields of journalism, the main stream print
media, pilot unions, the electronic media, government and the
international theatre of aviation agencies and scientific
organizations will be absolutely necessary in order to energize
dialogue not simply to 'discuss' events within the UFO community
itself but to motivate the community at large to want to know
more about authentic ETI contact issues because it is in their
interest to know.

- Essentially there must be a reliance on the ideal that the
proper and judicious use of divergent yet reliable information
generates the legitimate capacity to discern the truth from
lies. The acceptance of high quality yet controversial
information with a high level of strangeness attached to it is
always difficult to transmit the general public.

-If successful, it will no longer be acceptable for any
journalist nor person of science or political servant to ignore,
ridicule or dismiss the information we possess.

Guidelines:

All are free to contribute in a positive and proactive manner.

If one wishes to contribute, the contribution should be
proactive in nature, one that will enhance the ability of the
entire UFO community to energize and animate Disclosure efforts
in a collegial manner internationally.

By way of written guidelines this contributing editor will not
respond to nor will the list moderator consider posting
submissions that engage in name calling, critical personal
recrimination, the use unethical or inappropriate standards of
language or submissions that show disregard for basic
journalistic integrity.

This does not rule out disagreement or constructive critical
analysis but it does rule out negativism, political gamesmanship
or an attitude that does not demonstrate respect for others'
points of view or is not contributory to international efforts
towards promoting Disclosure.







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   May > May 26

                      Spirits Soar At Conclave On UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:52:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:52:32 -0400
Subject: Spirits Soar At Conclave On UFOs



Source: The Seattle Times - Seattle Washington

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134815959_paranormal26m.html

Monday, May 26, 2003
Page updated at 12:00 A.M.

Spirits Soar At Conclave On UFOs, Paranormal

By Jennifer Sullivan
Times Snohomish County bureau

Employees at the Radisson Hotel near Seattle-Tacoma
International Airport have their own ghost stories.

A sudden gust of wind pushing a heavy chair across the lobby,
visits from a longtime-but-now-dead guest, and maids hearing
children giggling and running down the halls when no one is
there.

All reasons for Ross Allison and his team of ghost experts to
investigate.

Allison's group is among local and nationally renowned psychics,
Bigfoot investigators and UFO experts at this weekend's
Northwest UFO/Paranormal Conference at the Radisson.

For the past two years, Allison and other members of Amateur
Ghost Hunters of Seattle, Tacoma _ AGHOST _ have hauled cameras,
thermometers, motion sensors, magnetic-field sensors and
barometers into homes, cemeteries, historical sites and
businesses looking for paranormal activity.

Late Saturday night, nearly two dozen people, some from AGHOST
and some curious onlookers, crept down the Radisson's halls.
While ghosts were nowhere to be found, a ball of paranormal
energy was spotted, Allison said.

"We're not ghostbusters. We don't try to get rid of the
spirits," Allison said yesterday.

Unlike the characters in the hit film "Ghostbusters," Allison
said his group's mission is to investigate paranormal activity
and "collect evidence that ghosts exist."

Allison said it's rare to hear about ghosts being violent or
mischievous. Most clients just want confirmation they are indeed
being haunted. The investigations are free.

Since the group formed two years ago, it has investigated the
Maltby Cemetery in Snohomish County, the Snohomish Library and
the Kalakala ferry, as well as scores of private homes.

Matt Luker, assistant front-office manager of Radisson Hotel
Sea-Tac Airport, said he has never seen ghosts wandering the
halls but said members of the paranormal group were allowed to
interview hotel staff in detail.

"I'm kind of a skeptic," Luker said.

More so, perhaps, than the 300 or so people who have attended
the third annual paranormal conference since it started Friday.

Local psychics Skip and Sharon Leingang, psychokinetic expert
Lyn Buchanan and Brazilian UFO expert A.J. Gevaerd are to speak
today.

West Seattle resident Matt Crowley and his girlfriend, Dana
Foss, chatted excitedly yesterday with Loren Coleman, a Maine-
based cryptozoologist who has written articles and books on lake
monsters, Bigfoot, giant snakes, Mothman and thunderbirds.

Crowley said his interest in Bigfoot and abominable snowmen
developed when he was young. "I think I was interested because
they were frightening," said Crowley, who attended last year's
conference.

Jillian Schuyler of Eatonville wandered around trying to learn
more about psychic abilities and UFOs. She said she saw a flier
in Eatonville advertising the conference. "I'm just curious what
would be here," Schuyler said.

Schuyler seemed disappointed when she heard the Leingangs
wouldn't speak on "Talking with the Dead," until today.

The husband and wife run Psychic Spectrum in Federal Way, which
has 12 psychics, a day spa and gift shop. They often work
together when doing psychic readings and contacting the dead.

"Everybody thinks we paint a third eye on our foreheads and wear
pointed hats," Skip Leingang laughed. "But we're trying to help
people on their spiritual path."

Charlette LeFevre, a director of the Seattle UFO/Paranormal
Group, said only about half as many people pre-registered for
the event as did last year, but more are showing up at the door.

Crowds have been especially heavy for the UFO and Bigfoot
presentations. LeFevre expects a high turnout for mythologist
William Henry's lecture on Iraq's ancient history and mythology.

Jennifer Sullivan: 425-783-0604 or jensullivan@seattletimes.com

Copyright =A9 2003 The Seattle Times Company


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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   May > May 26

                          'Signs' Of Alien Arrival?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:55:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:55:36 -0400
Subject: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival?




Source: The Express-Times - New Jersey


'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? Or Just Buffalo On Range?

Monday, May 26, 2003

By Peter Hall
The Express-Times

L. Mt. Bethel Twp. -- When Lisa and Pete Andrews noticed odd
patches of tall grass knocked down in a field next to their
house, the first culprits that came to mind were little green
men.

Although the Andrewses don't seriously believe their North
Delaware Drive neighborhood was visited by creatures from
another world, the damage has the couple, their neighbors and a
National Weather Service meteorologist stumped.

"A herd of buffalo?" said weather service meteorologist Art
Kraus when asked what could have caused the patterns.

The field is owned by a township farmer and planted with tall
grass. It adjoins the Andrews' property.

Lisa Andrews said she and her husband were preparing to plant
some apple and cherry saplings Sunday afternoon along their
driveway when they noticed the 2-foot-tall grass lying flat in
irregularly shaped patches throughout the field.

The stalks of grass were lying in the same north-to-south
direction with stems bent close to the ground and matted
together. About two dozen patches ranging in size from that of
beach towel to about 100 feet across dotted the field.

There was no apparent pattern to the patches and no clue as to
what had caused it.

No tire tracks or footprints could be seen leading into the
field.

Most bewildering, Lisa Andrews said, was a large, flattened
patch near the edge of the field. A narrow strip of the uncut
grass stood in a straight line with the Andrews' neat lawn on
one side and flattened grass on the other.

The damage wasn't there the night before, and Pete Andrews said
he was awake most of the night and didn't hear or see anything
unusual.

The field is a few dozen miles from the Bucks County setting of
the Mel Gibson alien thriller movie "Signs." With that movie in
mind, Lisa Andrews said she at first thought the patterns might
be a type of crop circle.

In "Signs," extraterrestrials preparing to invade earth begin
leaving crop circles around the world to serve as signposts for
their armada.

For years, crop circles have been a curiosity around the world,
but mostly in southern England, where mysterious rings and
geometric patterns began appearing in farm fields in the early
1970s.

Some believe the patterns are created by aliens, and paranormal
investigators have recorded strange energy fields and
unexplained balls of light in areas where circles have been
found, according to "The Crop Circular," a crop circle research
Web site.

Others say the circles are simply a prank pulled by people with
too much time on their hands.

The Andrews looked to their neighbor, Phil Palmer, 19, who lives
across the street.

Palmer denied any role in the appearance of the flat patches,
but did say he and his father, who used to own the field, saw a
similar flat spot in a crop there years ago.

He stood at the edge of the field as his pickup idled nearby,
watching bemusedly as Lisa and Pete Andrews examined and
photographed some of the spots.

Palmer said he thinks the patterns were caused by rain. He then
drove away.

Meteorologist Kraus said wind-driven rain, intense wind or a
downdraft from a thunderstorm could cause crops or tall grass to
be knocked flat, but there wasn't any weather like that
overnight Saturday and Sunday.

The highest wind recorded overnight at Lehigh Valley
International Airport was 5 mph, Kraus said. And only light rain
fell overnight, according to weather service records.

"It doesn't sound like it was really atmospheric or weather-
caused," he said. "Sounds like it was more likely caused by
people or animals."

Or maybe it really was little green men.

Reporter Peter Hall can be reached at 610-258-7171 or by e-mail
at phall@express-times.com.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]








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               You're Reading This? The World Didn't End Last

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:00:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:00:53 -0400
Subject: You're Reading This? The World Didn't End Last




Source: Space Daily - Sydney - Australia

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-03zl.html


If You're Reading This, The World Didn't End Last Thursday

by Timothy Quinn
New York - May 26, 2003

There will be no refunds on disposable toilet bags or emergency
dental kits, so if you purchased these or other "family
preparedness" supplies from The Survival Center, in the
expectation that a mysterious planet or rogue sister star of our
own Sun would wipe out 90% of the Earth's population this month,
you'll have to simply chalk it up to a moment's paranoia: the
sun is shining, the planet is blissfully unmolested and Britney
Spears has no plans for repopulating a post-apocalyptic Earth
with you anytime soon.

Planet X, or Nibiru as it's exotically known to believers in a
cult of ancient Sumerian astrophysicists, remains a persistent
myth based on an innocuous observational error now nearly a
quarter-millennium old.

The error has to do with the orbits of the outer planets in our
solar system, and is inarguably symptomatic of well practiced
science: few discoveries circumvent the awkward evolution of
initial mismeasurement into refined calculation and clarity,
even if 14-point headlines and Hollywood dramatizations
sometimes make it seem as if science is little more than the act
of lighting a match in a dark room.

The mystery of Uranus, discovered in 1781 at the seeming cusp of
our solar system, was no exception. In the years following its
discovery, perturbations were noticed in its orbit that hinted
at the gravitational tug of something not yet discovered in the
void beyond.

A search was undertaken and an eighth planet found by the mid-
nineteenth century, but while Neptune's influence helped explain
some of the variations in its predecessor's path across the
ecliptic, its mass was slightly larger than anticipated and left
a small margin still unaccounted for.

Nearly a century passed before a ninth planet was discovered in
1930 and it seemed at last as if the issue of Uranus' anomalous
orbit had been put firmly to bed - until it was established that
Pluto was just a bit too small to balance out the orbits of the
outer planets, and so the search continued for a further guiding
hand at the edge of the solar system: an as yet undiscovered
planet which had been fancifully dubbed Planet X and was
certainly not out of place in the era of Flash Gordon, Buck
Rogers of the Twenty-Fifth Century and Orson Welles' radio
adaptation of The War of the Worlds.

It became clear in 1992 that there was nothing at all wrong with
the orbit of Uranus. NASA's Voyager 2 probe measured Neptune's
mass on its way out of the solar system in 1989 and, once the
numbers had been crunched, resolved the discrepancy once and for
all by subtracting a problematic .5% and restoring harmony to
the orbits of the outermost planets.

Although this would seem an appropriate occasion to turn the
page and move onto any number of as yet unresolved issues in
planetary astronomy, it turns out there's something strangely
appealing about anticlimactic mysteries such as these to a small
but persistent reactionary fringe of armchair cosmologists,
conspiracy theorists and doomsday profiteers.

Unmoved by equally dire (if slightly more plausible) threats of
nuclear escalation, antibiotic-resistant bacteria, near-Earth
asteroids or neighborhood supernovae, the doomsday fringe prefer
stories of a more baroque touch: alien invasions, planetary
alignments, super-storms, apocalyptic computer viruses, Nazi
flying saucers and secret CIA mind control experiments.

Undeterred by the embarrassing survival of the human race
following the publication of such blanching paperbacks as
Richard W. Noone's "5/5/2000 Ice: The Ultimate Disaster" and
David S. Montaigne's "Nostradamus World War III 2002," doomsday
prophets like Mark Hazelwood ("Blindsided: Planet X Passes in
2003") and Nancy Lieder (founder of the ZetaTalk cult) have
breathed new life into the mysterious perturbations of Uranus'
orbit as a smoking gun for Planet X, the furtive tenth planet or
sister sun which was destined to have re-entered our solar
system this month with satisfyingly cataclysmic results. The
evidence for a distant rogue planet, according to writer and
fringe researcher Zecharia Sitchin ("The Twelfth Planet"), can
be found in ancient Sumerian tablets which seem to depict eleven
planets circling a sun.

To make prophecy match modern interpretation, of course,
revisionists like Sitchin have had to quietly count the Earth's
moon as a "planet" and then, just for good measure, gone ahead
and counted the sun as a planet too.

What Sitchin's jacket copy of "The Twelfth Planet" declines to
mention is the fact that the Sumerians were also wrong about
rather a lot. They believed that the sky was a great enclosed
dome which contained the sun, the moon and the stars, for
instance.

To therefore selectively interpret 6000-year old Sumerian
creation myths as evidence that the Earth was seeded by aliens
and their android thralls, as Sitchin advocate Jason Martell has
been wont to do, seems - shall we say - a trifle disingenuous.

Doomsday prophets are not a recent phenomenon, and while one
might argue that book royalties and the promise of late night
talk show coverage motivates the modern apocalyptic seer,
there's clearly something about the messianic act that appeals
to certain personality types.

We'll never know whether Nostradamus would've been a hit at
cocktail parties, but his present-day counterparts might lead
one to believe that charisma, intellect and unthreatened open-
mindedness are less likely attributes than an awkward unblinking
paranoia when confronted by intellectual sophistication or
irrefutable data.

To hear Sitchin mutter about alien astronauts in ancient
Mesopotamia is to find oneself wishing he'd found a somewhat
healthier outlet for his mania, like hanging around convention
halls dressed as Mr. Spock.

Disquietingly, it seems not only as if hysterical superstition
and messianic prophesy have survived the enlightenment, but may
paradoxically be thriving in an age unprecedented for scientific
discovery and public access to information.

The longevity of doomsday cults like ZetaTalk is, if nothing
else, a strong indication that one of our fundamental
assumptions about alternative science is wrong: as much as we
might wish to believe that ignorance remains the firmament of
exploitation, the twenty-first century's intellectual plague is
a wealth of knowledge untempered by clear refutation.

The hoaxed moon landing movement is a particularly interesting
example of the sort of pseudoscientific fearmongering that
should've gone out of vogue with forensic phrenology.

Inspired by the provocative (and not unenjoyable) 1978 movie,
"Capricorn One," in which budget-strapped NASA fakes a Mars
mission and is forced to kill its own astronauts to keep the
truth from the public, a fervid group of conspiracy theorists
have embraced the notion that life mimics art (or vice versa)
and aggressively promote the theory that NASA successfully faked
the six Apollo landings - somehow doctoring data, forging
photographs, dubbing radio transmissions and brainwashing or
blackmailing thousands of aeronautics employees and
subcontractors in what would have to be the biggest conspiracy
since the Knights of Malta spirited away the Ark of the
Covenant, kidnapped the Lindbergh baby and assassinated Kurt
Cobain.

It's a testament to how pervasive the Apollo hoax theory has
become in recent years that the Fox network aired a mortifying
1991 pseudodocumentary called "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on
the Moon?" (not dissimilar to their previous efforts at
provocative science, "Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction?" and
"UFO's, The Best Evidence Ever Caught on Tape," both of which
were revisited in dubiously self-serving fashion in "World's
Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed"); equally telling is
the fact that a current Google search for "Apollo landings" is
likely to result in at least one hoax-related website within the
first cluster of ten results.

It's hard to imagine how the Apollo missions might have been
more fully documented to provide indisputable proof of human
presence on the moon. Anyone with an Internet connection can
view archived photographs, read transcripts of recorded
conversations between Houston and the lunar surface or order a
commemorative DVD from Nova.

Conspiracy theorists counter this wealth of information with a
level of logic not often found beyond the high sanitarium walls:
a seeming absence of stars is attributed to clumsy set design
rather than the limited sensitivity of NASA cameras, and the
graceful bounding gait of astronauts traversing the moon's
surface is apparently evidence of film run at half-speed through
a projector rather than a near-weightless environment.

So why doesn't NASA simply set the record straight? After all,
to paraphrase a clich=E9, if we can put a man on the moon can't we
clearly explain how we got him there - and why a foley artist
behind a blue-screen is a pretty unlikely explanation for
perceived anomalies in the mission record? Concerned astronomers
like Phil Plait have already attempted as much, yet NASA has
chosen to take the high road, aborting an attempt to produce a
book on spaceflight-related hoaxes by historian Jim Oberg when
the media caught the scent of a potential cockfight.

Whether there's any relation between the space agency's
perpetually beleaguered budget and a public perception of
incompetence or conspiracy is certainly arguable, but there's
little question that NASA holds claim to a smaller cut of the
national imagination that it did a scant forty years ago - and a
specific percentage of that mindspace is linked to lurid
allegations of fraud. A low double-digit book contract seems a
small price to pay for bringing home the swing vote.

As strategies go, the high road wasn't particularly effective
with Roswell and doesn't seem to be working with Area 51 either.
The Fox network's alien autopsy fiasco is a good indication that
many people still think an alien spacecraft landed outside
Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947 - rather than what was later
identified as a military weather balloon, a mix-up which seems
to have originated when William Brazel, the rancher who
discovered the wreckage on his property, reported to the local
sheriff that he had stumbled across what appeared to be "one of
them flying saucers."

Likewise, Area 51 - a top-secret Air Force proving ground for
experimental aircraft in the Great Basin Desert of Nevada - has
acquired a persistent following of UFOlogists who believe this
remote site to be the flashpoint for a pending alien invasion of
the heartland.

Blame it on too many remakes of "Invasion of the Body
Snatchers": instead of remembering that the original 1956
version had alien pods standing in for communists (or, in
opposing interpretations, for McCarthyists), we choose to
remember the alien pods as... holy mackerel, alien pods!

The intelligence community is at least partially to blame for
this kind of literalist paranoia: reluctant denials and blacked-
out memoranda are obviously a poor substitute for clear and open
refutation.

Perhaps the most innocuous of pseudoscientific obfuscations is
the Intelligent Design movement, a post-creationist anti-
Darwinian ideology with a folksy media-friendly name intended to
disguise an unflinching mandate to restore religion as part of
the science curriculum in public schools.

Three quarters of a century after the paradigm-wrenching Scopes
Monkey Trial, popular neocreationist advocates like Michael Behe
("Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution")
and William Dembski ("Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between
Science and Theology") are quick to point out that ID isn't your
daddy's seven-day creation myth.

Intelligent Design rather rakishly acknowledges the process of
natural selection as evidenced by a robust fossil record, but
stops short of attributing humanity's emergence to a
dispassionate assembly of amino acids on a fortuitously located
planet circling an average main sequence star.

Behe, for example, argues that nature is filled with
"irreducibly complex" systems like bacterial flagella (a form of
cellular propulsion) which only function properly if several
interrelated components somehow evolve simultaneously; he
neglects to consider that there might be alternate evolutionary
benefits to individual components, ignoring the fact that nature
is filled with complex systems that reuse the successful bits
and pieces of simpler organisms.

The fundamental flaws of Intelligent Design won't be found in
bacteria, however - ultimately, ID posits the logical fallacy
that if God cannot be disproved He must therefore exist, as well
as the taxonomic fallacy that theology is a quantifiable
scientific endeavor rather than mere philosophical theism.

What distinguishes the threat of Intelligent Design from prior
creationist arguments is a shrewd use of popular science; like
UFO fanatics or moon hoaxers, ID advocates sift through an
abundance of data in fields as diverse as biochemistry,
numerical analysis, behavioral psychology and cultural
anthropology in search of superficial similarities to invariably
vague theories of surreptitious determinism.

To the average layperson, evidence such as this - cautiously
cast in the language of twenty-first century science - can seem
to possess a thin veneer of respectability when unchallenged by
informed refutation.

Either because of good manners or an unwillingness to compromise
religious tolerance, Intelligent Design in particular has been
spared the rigor of critical thinking in the popular media, with
the notable exception of occasional articles in mainstream
publications like the Skeptical Inquirer and Natural History
magazine.

Whether confronting doomsday prophesy or alternative science,
the popular media generally contribute to hysterical
misperception by attempting to negotiate an inherent conflict of
interest between responsible journalism and salacious hard copy.

"The Day the World Shuts Down" was Newsweek's 1998 attempt to
objectively analyze the new millennium's Y2K crisis. A year
later, CNN was "Bracing for Guerrilla Warfare in Cyberspace."
Time Magazine lunged at us from another direction with its 2001
cover story "Summer of the Shark," drifting back into deeper
waters with a 2002 cover story on "The Bible and the
Apocalypse."

Blaming the media, however, is perhaps a little like blaming
one's reflection for being overweight: we're all responsible for
the information we choose to consume and the degree of personal
gullibility we're inclined to tolerate.

The average American's gullibility barometer couldn't help but
have reacted to the 9/11 attacks on New York City and
Washington, DC: just when we'd begun to adjust to the declining
role of organized religion in our increasingly quantifiable
lives, Islamic fundamentalism put the end of Western
civilization back on the map.

Amid the resulting media frenzy of terrorist sleeper cells and
potential rogue nations, the prophesied return of Planet X
seemed a little less the stuff of science fiction and, to many,
just one more reason to feel a bit jumpy on the way to the
laundromat.

For the conspiratorial fringe, 9/11 was a goldmine of
conflicting data, irretrievable evidence and easily exploited
paranoia. Even after Islamic militants had been publicly
identified on the flight rosters of hijacked planes, rumors
abounded that it was the work of Zionists trying to polarize
debate in the Israel-Palestine conflict, or wait, maybe the
United States military did it to distract the American public
from a struggling presidency.

For its part, the Bush administration showed little hesitancy in
exploiting public opinion to mobilize American forces against
Iraq, calmly marginalizing as na=EFve any arguments that an Iraqi
/ bin Laden connection were tenuous at best with the same smug
unflappability favored by Roswell believers confronting a
skeptical scientific community.

Sadly, conspiracy theory and reactionary militarism if
unsuccessfully refuted both favor a wealth of conflicting
information, lowering the bar for the paranoid and messianic:
instead of insisting on unwavering belief, it seems all a modern
seer need demand is that you believe in everything, even if only
a little bit.

To date, the bulk of the scientific community has washed its
hands of cult science, sufficing to roll back on its heels with
an exasperated cry of, "Where does it end?" Surely there has to
be a point past which it's simply not worth the effort of
discrediting spurious claims or providing the deliberately
uninformed and embarrassingly delusional with - in the words of
one frustrated writer to Natural History magazine - "exactly
what they desired: publicity in a mainstream scientific forum.

These advocates should be ostracized by the scientific
community, just as we would ostracize someone who claims to be
researching the natural behavior of wood nymphs and faeries."

As comfortable as most people may be drawing that line, it's
clear that primetime network alien autopsies - or Time/CNN polls
revealing that 65% of Americans believe clandestine alien
contact was made in the forties - ought to suggest that the
scientific community's boundaries of responsibility need to
redrawn for the information age.

To dismiss Roswell and Rael as particularly weedy offspring of a
hopelessly Punchinelloed Flat Earth Society (which, at its
height, had little more to work with than azimuthal cartography)
somehow seems an arrogant attempt to have our cake and eat it
too: popular paperbacks on cosmology and natural science come at
a price, and that price is the authority we invest, foolishly or
not, in unexamined science writ large.

Timothy Quinn is a writer and technology professional who
currently lives and works in New York City.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.http://anomalist.com for the lead]







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   May > May 26

                     Poll Shows Asians Believe In Aliens

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:06:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:06:49 -0400
Subject: Poll Shows Asians Believe In Aliens




Source: The Borneo Bulletin - Brunei, Borneo

http://www.brunei-online.com/bb/fri/may23w7.htm

May 23, 2003

Poll Shows Asians Believe In Aliens

SINGAPORE (dpa) - Is there life in outer space? Many Asians
think so according to results of a regional poll published in a
Singapore newspaper on Thursday.

A survey conducted by Hong Kong-based cable TV channel Star
Movies showed nine out of 10 people in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan
and Singapore believe aliens exist.

Ninety-eight per cent of the respondents in Taiwan said they
believe there is life elsewhere in the universe, followed by 95
per cent in China, 94 per cent in Hong Kong, and 89 per cent in
Singapore, according to the results published in The Straits
Times.

The regional poll involved 83,000 people aged 18 and up.

At 49 per cent, those responding from Taiwan constituted the
largest percentage believing or agreeing with the statement, "I
can recognise an alien."







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   May > May 26

                               Skeptical Stuff

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:17:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:17:19 -0400
Subject: Skeptical Stuff




Source: The Daily Grail - Netherlands

http://www.dailygrail.com/

Skeptical Stuff Posted by Greg
Sunday, May 25 @ 13:52:20 CDT


Skeptical Inquirer magazine's July/August issue is out and
about, and has a number of articles that TDG regulars might like
to peruse. On their website:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html

there are a few online articles available, including critiques
of after-death proponents Gary Schwartz and John Edward, a
review of a 'conspiracy conference', and a very interesting
piece on magical thinking in alternative medicine. No doubt some
of you might have something to say on these articles, so post
away if you feel the need.

Sidenote: although both CSICOP and Skeptical Inquirer appear to
feel that Edward is 'hustling the bereaved... deceiving them for
crass personal gain'.....

I note that they promote links to his books at Amazon (both in
Amazon advertisements and references to the articles) with their
affiliate code included. This would tend to indicate that CSICOP
themselves are knowingly promoting John Edward for financial
gain - I hope that they are doing the ethical thing and giving
those gains to charities involved with bereaved families.....







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   May > May 27

                       Unidentified Submarine Object?

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:01:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:33:57 -0400
Subject: Unidentified Submarine Object?



Source: http://www.spacewar.com/2003/030526011600.01alz59v.html

British navy investigating nuclear sub collision in Arctic

London (AFP) May 26, 2003

The British Royal Navy has opened an investigation after a
nuclear submarine collided with an object while underwater in
the Arctic, the defense ministry said Monday.

No one was injured in the incident involving the submarine
Tireless and there was no radioactive risk, a spokeswoman for
the ministry said.

"She's going to Faslane (navy base in Scotland) for a full
damage assessment," the spokeswoman said, without giving details
on when the incident occurred and whether the object the sub
collided with was an iceberg.

The vessel was "submerged and hit a free-floating object", she
revealed.

"Why this happened is a matter for the board of inquiry. These
submarines have electronic sensor equipment and sonar on board
which help in sensing objects."









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   May > May 27

                           Re: Baku Photo - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:02:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:46:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Baku Photo - Hatch


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:42:32 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Baku Photo

 >>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:37:51 +0200 (CEST)
 >>Subject: Re: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?

 >>>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:19:09 -0500 (EST)
 >>>Subject: Baku UFO Picture 'Lifted'?

 >>>At the following link to an article about a UFO seen in
 >>>Azerbaijan, that was seen by many people and captured on video,
 >>>a photo of Ed's UFO is displayed.

<snip>

 >No, it is not "an irrelevant issue." It was worth the effort to
 >ascertain for certain that the UFO pictured was just a prop and
 >not a UFO identical to the Gulf Breeze UFO allegedly
 >photographed by Ed Walters.

 >I know that the poorer publications especially do this quite
 >frequently without labeling the photo thinking, I assume, that
 >the average reader won't know the difference. The old "UFO
 >Universe" mag was notorious for doing this.

 >This same newspaper (Baku Today) also featured an article from a
 >scientist who claimed that G. W. Bush allocated 3 billion
 >dollars to UFO research after, according to one scientist, the
 >Columbia was shot down by aliens for brnging weapons into space.

 >Still, it was worth checking out the source of the photo, just
 >in case.


Hello Chaz:

It looks like Baku Today maintains editorial standards similar
to the Weekly World News.


Best

- Larry Hatch







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                  Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:12:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:57:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Stevenson


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:20:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:52:04 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>Where in the world does the crazy idea originate that the alien
 >>autopsy footage is the best evidence we have for ET visitation?
 >>I have a whole chapter on it in my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC. My
 >>conclusion is very negative and I am in the Fox film! And yes, I
 >>met with Santilli twice etc etc. Except for Ed Gehrman, who else
 >>on this List agrees with that viewpoint?

 >>Ian, I surely wish you would be specific about who believes what
 >>rather than filling us with your generalizations without
 >>providing any evidence to support them or specifics as to just
 >>who believes what...

 >Believe me, Mr. Friedman, I have never believed wholeheartedly
 >in the AA film - especially considering its background (or lack
 >thereof). But considering the somewhat touchy state of things in
 >Ufology regarding things that have yet to be proved or
 >disproved, I thought it best to go with what seems to be the
 >general consensus that since it hasn't been proven that it IS a
 >fake, that it could very well be a dead alien. I don't
 >personally believe that -- not even a little bit -- nor do I
 >agree with that rather peculiar reasoning. When I said the AA
 >film was our best evidence, I meant that, considering some
 >photographs and films that alleged to show aliens (both dead and
 >alive), the AA film is among the most widely known, most
 >examined, and most controversial.

 >My apologies for the miscommunication.


 >Ian Rogers

Hello again Ian and List

For the 'Real Proof' - There is, of course, the ET severed
finger, the ET hair and the ET fingerprints from a mirror all of
which have been DNA profiled with extremely interesting results
indeed which seem to indicate some form of genetic engineering
by ET. Maybe these will convince you more so than the film which
I also find hard to believe, based on my analysis of a similar,
said to be, Gray ET introduced by a person nick-named Victor.


col







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   May > May 27

                              Our 'Final Hour'

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:00:57 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:00:49 -0400
Subject: Our 'Final Hour'


Source: Popular Science Magazine

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,451647,00.html

Great Britain's Astronomer Royal Sir Martin Rees on technology's
"yuck factor".

Over the past three decades, astrophysicist Sir Martin Rees has
gained international renown for tackling vexing questions about
the mysterious birth and structure of the universe. In his sixth
book, Our Final Hour: The Threat to Humanity's Survival (Basic
Books; $25/March 2003), Rees, a Royal Society research professor
at Cambridge University, warns of rogue nano-machines,
genetically engineered viruses and other evil spawns of
advancing technology that may ultimately lead to the species'
destruction.

Popular Science: In your book you predict that by the year 2020
bioterror or bioerror will lead to one million casualties in a
single event. Why?

Martin Rees: Looking ahead, the great advances in biotechnology
are bound to have a downside. It will be possible for
thousandsindeed, millionsof people to acquire the technology to
produce something that could cause that kind of disaster. And it
only takes one person to cause catastrophe! It's incumbent on
scientists to be very cautious.

PS: Armageddon is a very popular topic just now. As an
astronomer, what's unique about your perspective?

MR: It's important to look beyond our planet and place Earth in
a cosmic context. Earth may be the only place where conscious
life has evolved, so what happens here is cosmically important:
We could hold responsibility for spreading life throughout the
cosmos. And this makes our responsibility in this century rather
daunting, since this is a time in which we could either snuff
ourselves out or spread life beyond Earth.

PS: Do you think life exists elsewhere in the universe?

MR: I haven't a clue. There are so many steps involvedthe right
environment for life to begin, getting simple life started and
so on. I genuinely don't know if the odds are one in 50 or one
in a billion-billion.

PS: In your book you also suggest the possibility of a
reemerging nuclear threat. Why?

MR: We've been lulled into a certain complacency about nuclear
weapons because, obviously, the risk of a really massive
exchange devastating Europe and America is much less than it was
during the cold war. But the risk of the use of some nuclear
weapons has actually gone up, especially in India, Pakistan and
Korea. Indeed, I think American policies are going to continue
to increase the risk. By developing advanced weapons, such as
small nuclear bunkers, the United States is gaining the
capability to enforce its will on any country that does not
acquire its own nuclear deterrent.

PS: Is there a realistic way to protect scientific progress from
being used for evil purposes?

MR: My concern is that with a much larger academic community and
much greater commercial pressures, it's going to be more
difficult to get a consensus on going slow in ethically
problematic areas, like biotechnology and robotics. Scientists
can't always predict the implications of their work, but they
ought to encourage benevolent applications and warn against
dangers. We have that responsibility.









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   May > May 27

                    Re: Eight Fingered Aliens - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:54:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:22:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Eight Fingered Aliens - Stevenson


 >From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:40:25 -0400
 >Subject: Eight Fingered Aliens [was: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash]

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:05:45 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >><snip

 >>What we need are more and better hypothesis to test and
 >>better methodology to test them.

 >List, what we need is more evidence (yielding reliable data)
 >around which to construct better hypotheses, and although Colin
 >alleges he has regular contact with his abductors, he seems
 >totally uninterested in getting any kind of real evidence,
 >thereof. In fact, one might just get the idea that, deep-down
 >within, he knows there could not be any evidence, and that at
 >some level he realizes 'they' are figments of his imagination.

 >So now, Listers, sorry, but I cannot resist:

 >Colin, your statement that you were abducted by advanced beings
 >with eight fingers makes no evolutionary sense! Such large
 >numbers of digits began disappearing early in evolution of
 >terrestrial life when things were emerging from the sea. In
 >terrestrial (as contrasts with aquatic) vertebrate organisms,
 >digits rather quickly reduced in number because once life got
 >beyond the aquatic stage, such large numbers of digits were a
 >hindrance rather than a help (as in swimming), and they tend
 >toward non-survival rather that survival.

 >You seem to allege that your abductors are bipedal and
 >vertebrate. Well no matter on what planet life evolves, the
 >basic laws of practicality would still be in force. If an
 >organism can do take care of life's needs with less digits,
 >unneeded digits recede. For bipedal organisms living in a
 >gaseous (e.g., air) environment, I cannot think of any practical
 >use for eight fingers - at least not mentionable on this List :)
 >- other than to suppose your abductors have eight nostrils from
 >which they need to simultaneously pick 'boogers' out of each! :)

 >>Extraterrestrials are real and contact me very regularly.

 >Hey, Colin! If you cannot manage a movie at least during the
 >beginning of one of these frequent visits by those eight-digit
 >evolutionary drop-outs, I suggest you at least ask them for some
 >of those spare 'boogers' as hard evidence (complete with DNA),
 >for which seeming cause they retain all those fingers to
 >facilitate some as-yet-not-understood need for simultaneous
 >eight-nostril 'booger' harvest. Perhaps they have a lot of nasal
 >allergies! :)

 >Give us a break (or at least get us a 'booger'), Colin!

 >Heck! Failing that (if you're a little squeamish about picking
 >up ET 'boogers' or if they don't really have eight nostrils),
 >objective skeptics might let you off easily: We'd probably all
 >like to see even just one single fingerprint from any one of
 >those sixteen total fingers!

 >Seriously, now, Colin, there must be at least one fingerprint
 >around somewhere,if your visitors are not a figment of your
 >imagination.

 >How so?

 >If their environment and (or) their manual tasks are so slippery
 >that they need eight fingers on each hand to hold onto things,
 >they surely have retained the kind of patterns that produce
 >fingerprints, because the function of those patterns is both
 >adhesive traction and to provide a sense of touch.

 >When those evolutionary drop-outs get a professional manicure,
 >it surely must get expensive! Or, do they just bite their nails
 >(if they have any), perhaps out of nervous fear that one of
 >their abductees or contactees will get one of their many
 >fingerprints? :)


 >Ray Stanford

 >"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
 >trifles." - Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery

Hello Ray and List

Thank you for your very accurate statements Ray but 8 Bogies are
associated with railways and so can be dangerous therefore ET
'doesn't go there' for fear of injury :-) or maybe they did and
lost their thumbs there. Blimey, I don't know !!

Maybe they are criminal ETs and had their thumb's cut off as
punishment for stealing.

Thinking that there is a need to clarify on my statements made;-
  The ETs (or not ETs depending apon your conspiracy theory) had
8 fingers during my abduction - yes I saw them and felt them as
did the Stone Henge Security officer after me waiting at the
side. We didn't know each other, by the way. Didn't have a
camera to hand when abduction took place.

When ET 'contacts me regularly' they are not visible in the
main, therefore a camera would not reveal them.

Are you in the habit of trying to photograph folk who ring you
on the phone and if not then prove you are actually talking to
someone - difficult, yes, without collaboration.

And yes other folk can sometimes hear them as well as myself
sometimes many hundreds of yards away.

How do I know it's ET you say?

Well as said previously, I can't. And neither can I prove the
existance of ET.

So what exactly are the points you make here? Is it that
telepathy is unproven and you want me to prove it? Or do you
want me to prove I have an ET implant through which I hear them?
Or give you the thing ET left for me so it can be de bunked -
that would be similar to being an Indian giver to me.

Anything can be something else logical if you put your mind to
it.

col

Holding out great hope that someone will prove later what
is said here.

BTW - Do your 'trifles' have cream on top? :-) if so then prove
it my sending me one preferably horizontally and not verticaly
at speed in the direction of my face :-)







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   May > May 27

                        Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:09:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:26:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson


 >From: Josh Goldstein <Mclearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 03:08:27 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

<snip>

 >>Dear Col:

 >>Sheep? What about goats or the vegetable kingdom for that
 >>matter. Is my lemon tree at any risk from rods?

 >>Worried in Redwood City, CA

 >>- Larry Hatch

Hi Larry
They arn't but you are if you eat them with dead rod residue on them.
Has anyone ever eaten spider's web's in great quantity do you know?
col

 >Hello Colin,

 >I had set your last message aside to write a response after I read
 >today's messages. I am also am 9 hours later than Larry.

 >Thanks Larry,

 >I am sure you definitely have a need for such vital information.
 >Soon

 >I will back on that beautiful turf in that part of California.
 >When I sold my mountain property at Last Chance the new owner
 >decided to produce highly valued mohair from the ranch. He
 >brought in a large herd of Mos, they produce prestigious award
 >winning mohair. Each Mo is specially bred to produce a dozen
 >sweaters at one time. Once they were able to eliminate knitting
 >from the business plan we started reaping overabundant profits.
 >I own part of them and I get a dividend each month. If rods are
 >hazardous to Mos then the United States economy will head
 >straight down, constantly tightening in its tailspin until it
 >hits bottom.

 >Larry, Mos are the number two product in the state, bringing in
 >nearly as much income as growing marijuana. As a result of the
 >Drug War many people are switching to Mos. Mo power to them!

 >Colin, the onus is on you, the you that is making the claim that
 >real flying "rods"are in a cave in New Mexico. Instead of
 >writing the "lets dance around the May flowers" type of post,
 >the onus is on you to provide the evidence that may suffice to
 >prove your claim case.

 >In plain English I am only representing my own views and to me
 >it is time for you to put up or shut up. It is up to you to
 >gather the evidence. If they are in a cave can't you pick up
 >some of their bodies? Can't you catch any in a net? Are these
 >somehow nonmaterial but magically show up on videotape? If you
 >don't have any hard evidence and don't plan to gather such why
 >don't you please admit so? And if you know what a rod would do
 >to a Mo, let's hear it from you, rodsman.

 >If you do not gather hard evidence to prove your assertions I
 >suggest that you need to spend months of extended field research
 >inside that cave in New Mexico. Certain indigenous mushrooms may
 >aid your observation, as they do for local medicine men and
 >Shamen. Back in the sixties we did that sort of thing with
 >Shamen and peyote.

 >Don't forget to always be ready with your net.


Hi Josh

Only a short answer here. Do you 'dip' your Mos as they do
sheep? Research is still ongoing in regard to rods by myself and
others. And - if a de bunk theory is proposed as truth it should
be proven by those purporting it, not me. Can't afford the
travel expense's myself to New Mexico but I can watch the local
sheep very very closely :-)

In regard to putting up or shutting up, I don't agree with blind
ecceptance of the de bunk of anything and therefore will try to
keep all avenues open unless proof is forthcoming as you do in
regard to claims of knowledge of previously unknown things. The
boot can fit on the other foot here and I insist it doe's. Pay
me enough money and I will give you the research so far. Name me
a price ? or I will publish when I'm ready to do so.

Re; Mushrooms. They are quite legal here too [UK] in natural
form although they are not greatly enjoyed by myself. Try the
French :-) Certainly don't eat Rods as these definitely are
suspect as a culinary delight - although I believe they eat
French frogs and snails, so maybe there is an opening for Rod
sales... but there is also a big river there called the 'Seine'
which I would rather not be 'in' :-)


col









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   May > May 27

                  Re: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:28:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - Balaskas


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
 >Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:55:36 -0400
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival?

 >Source: The Express-Times - New Jersey

 >'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? Or Just Buffalo On Range?

 >Monday, May 26, 2003

 >By Peter Hall
 >The Express-Times

 >L. Mt. Bethel Twp. -- When Lisa and Pete Andrews noticed odd
 >patches of tall grass knocked down in a field next to their
 >house, the first culprits that came to mind were little green
 >men.

 >Although the Andrewses don't seriously believe their North
 >Delaware Drive neighborhood was visited by creatures from
 >another world, the damage has the couple, their neighbors and a
 >National Weather Service meteorologist stumped.

 >"A herd of buffalo?" said weather service meteorologist Art
 >Kraus when asked what could have caused the patterns.


Hi everyone!

At the Ontario MUFON meeting in Toronto yesterday, one of the
members who is very interested in crop circles and has closely
studied this phenomenon to my surprise made reference to "sheep
circles" during her presentation to us. One such mysterious and
still not fully explained sheep circle is described in the web
site below.

http://www.swirlednews.com/article.asp?artID=429

This UFO UpDates post about crop circles and a possible herd of
buffalo reminded me of a true story about a herd of cows near
St. Robert, Quebec on June 14, 1994. And yes, this story does
have an ET connection. The farmer there was puzzled to see his
cows out in the field standing in a circle staring at something
in the middle. This something turned out to be the largest of
several meteorites that had just fallen from the sky!

We know of many individuals and companies that can and do
produce large outdoor graphics on one's property for a fee but
does anyone know of other crop/animal circles like the story
above which have a definite or proven ET/UFO connection? Another
much larger natural circle also in Quebec, the 100 km. diameter
Manicouagan ring lake (not really crater shaped), is so large it
can easily be seen from space by astronauts - and ETs.

The St. Robert, Quebec meteorites have since been acquired by
the Geological Survey of Canada and are now on public display in
Ottawa. On an earlier visit to GSC with some suspected ET/UFO
artifacts I brought along that I wanted tested there, I met with
Dr. Richard Herd, Curator of Canada's National Meteorite Museum.
He was kind enough to personally show me the rest of their huge
meteorite collection, including some specimens which he believed
originated from the Moon and Mars. The museum is free and is
open to the public on weekdays.


Nick Balaskas







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   May > May 27

                       Re: Abydos Helicopter - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:46:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:33:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter - Aldrich


 >From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
 >Subject: Abydos Helicopter

 >You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
 >appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
 >solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
 >Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
 >fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

 >http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm


A helicopter on the temple at Abydos? Put there by whom? United
Technologies, Inc. Or maybe it was the Greeks who put it up
there and their secret writings were stolen by Da Vinci and
later by Sikorsky.

My challenge at the time was for the advocates to explain how
this stylized item was a helicopter. Did they understand the
context of the position of the item which looked to them like a
helicopter. So far the answers have been none.

Jiri, your site is having all kinds of trouble. I haven't been
able to access it fully.

The work "debunker" is emotionally charged in ufology. However,
for every debunker there are 50 bunk-generators. They work over
time to produce a steady stream of bunk piled upon bunk and
fertilized by high grade BS. I would say every decade since 1960
has seen bunk-generation increase by an order of magnitude. The
universe, by many theories is thought to be expanding. Ufology
will have to expand several time faster than the universe to
encompass all the bunk that is being generated at the current
rate.



Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135






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   May > May 27

                  Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Bassett

From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:37:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:58:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Bassett


 >From: Victor Viggiani <victor@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 27 May 2003 08:22:23 -0400
 >Subject: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >Disclosure Dialogue
 >Vol I Edition 1
 >May 2003

 >Introduction:

 >Based on the overwhelming mass of evidential material both
 >within the UFO research community as well as within the
 >sequestered data residing in government archives, Disclosure of
 >an Extraterrestrial presence on planet Earth has become the
 >ultimate Terrestrial Imperative for the human race as we
 >discover ourselves, the universe and those who share it with us.

<snip>


Victor's thoughts and efforts, while perhaps extending more
credit to me than deserved, are greatly appreciated. He raises
the key questions at the heart of the "disclosure process."

The word "truth" does not appear in the three principal founding
Constitutional Acts of Canada (1867, 1871 1982). In the U.S.
Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence,
the word "truth" appears but once - in the plural in the
Declaration:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty
and the pursuit of Happiness."

The Bill of Rights would designate further rights to join these
notable three, but the right to the truth is not among them. If
Truth was in the minds of the founders, it was, as with
Happiness, the right to "pursue" it, not the right to "have" it.

What the founding documents of Canada and the United States do
provide (and the source of their great success) are the tools in
which citizens can get the truth from their government, if they
want it.

If a President lies too often and too well, impeach him. The
same for judges. If a Senator or Congressperson lies and
subverts the truth, vote them out of office. Demand appointees
be dismissed. Demand the Congress conduct inquiries. Refuse to
elect the liars and spin doctors. Use the press freedom under
the 1st Amendment to investigate the hell of whatever needs
investigating.

Or not.

Canadians and Americans have the right to pursue the truth, not
to have it. In America only one citizen in four votes - only
half register. The great media explosion is now being
consolidated in the hands of fewer and fewer owners. We are told
it is good for business. It is also good for mitigating the
scrutiny of a media explosion. Few are paying attention. The FCC
vote to dramatically further this consolidation is only a few
days away.

It is fully appropriate to state the public will not learn the
truth of the extraterrestrial presence until the public demands
the truth and not before. Why should it be otherwise? If an
insufficient number of citizens in a relatively free country are
not willing to invest enough time and resource to have a truth
(or in the larger sense a truthful government), they will not
have it. And the consequences will be what they will be. History
is filled with such consequences. Canadians and Americans are
not immune.

In reality, the circumstances of disclosure are such, the end of
the "cover-up" is inevitable, not because a critical mass of
citizens have finally massed behind a truth telling process, but
because the cover-up is so large, so complex, has gone on so
long, involves so many people - many going public with their
knowledge - it is collapsing under its own weight.

But all truth telling (like glory) is fleeting. How long? How
much? What objective?

It does not take a majority of citizens to speak truth to power
and demand the same. Only a modest and determined minority is
required.

If the most extraordinary information in the history of the
human race is not sufficient to galvanize such a minority, what
possibly could?

If the citizens of the free, first-world nations are willing to
permit their futures be determined by policies based on lies,
disinformation and fraud, what prospects does this century hold?

Based upon the low end estimates, if contactees/
abductees/experiencers (forget the millions of interested public
- the intriguees) each put $100 in the pot, there would be tens
of millions of dollars to press the government for the truth.
Washington (Ottawa?) would be shaken to its foundation.

The activists and the researchers are burning out. It is a
choice they made, but it is not an outcome which is required or
desired. Their talent and good will is needed. Like the pursuit
jets in the still relevant "Fail Safe," they run out of gas and
fall into the sea. Waste.

There are many rooms in the mansion of government and even more
lies. The extraterrestrial issue is the most powerful lever
anyone living will ever have to open the door to the Secret
Empire. The government of the United States (and Canada?) does
not want that lever used. But, until such time as the
Constitutional freedoms are gone, it remains a personal choice.

Thanks, Victor, for choosing to act.

Regards,

Stephen Bassett

__________________________________________________

       Paradigm Research Group
       URL: www.paradigmclock.com
       E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
        Phone: 202-431-2459
       4938 Hampden Lane, #161
       Bethesda, Maryland 20814
__________________________________________________

  "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
     if you are willing to give away the credit."
__________________________________________________






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   May > May 27

                            Kansas Crop Circles?

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:37:41 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:02:23 -0400
Subject: Kansas Crop Circles?



Source: WIBW TV - Kansas

http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/351656.html

Sunday, May 25, 2003


Crop Circles Appear in Southcentral Kansas

Crop circles have appeared all over the world in recent years.
Now, one has turned up in Kansas. A Haysville family says they
found one in their backyard.

Curtis Fletcher woke up Saturday morning to find what appears to
be a crop circle in the wheat field next to his house. Similar
crop formations have been found in fields just south of Viola
and north of Conway Springs this weekend.

Meteorologists believe these circles were probably caused by
strong winds and rain.






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   May > May 28

                      UFO Fleet over Necochea Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:17:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:37:26 -0400
Subject: UFO Fleet over Necochea Argentina


SOURCE: Planeta UFO
DATE: May 26, 2003 9:54 p.m.

UFO FLEET OVER NECOCHEA, ARGENTINA.


Dear readers of Inexplicata:

The following message was received from UFO researcher and
INEXPLICATA contributor Guillermo Gimenez


Be advised that I am investigating an incident which transpired
on Sunday, May 25, when a witness saw the maneuvers of some ten
(10) objects of considerable size, white in color,  in the
vicinity of the Port of Necochea-Quequ=E9n (Argentina).

The eyewitness is an engineer with the Necochea Power Station,
belonging to the Centrales de la Costa Atl=E1ntica S.A. (CCASA)
company. The objects were seen between 20:20 and 20:30 hours on
Sunday, May 25.

The objects maneuvered in absolute silence and vanished in the
direction of Parque Miguel Lillo in Necochea, originating from
the Quequ=E9n port sector and flying over the Necochea beach
resort.

More information on this episode will be available shortly,
proving that Necochea is once more a constant area of UFO
manifestations.

Guillermo Daniel Gimenez,
Necochea,
Argentina

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)









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                       Re: Abydos Helicopter - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:12:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:41:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter - Gehrman


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:46:11 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
 >>Subject: Abydos Helicopter

 >>You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
 >>appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
 >>solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
 >>Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
 >>fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

 >>http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

 >A helicopter on the temple at Abydos? Put there by whom? United
 >Technologies, Inc. Or maybe it was the Greeks who put it up
 >there and their secret writings were stolen by Da Vinci and
 >later by Sikorsky.

Jan & List,

Try this link:

http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html

Ed







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   May > May 28

                       Alien Abductions The Real Deal?

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:13:33 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:53:55 -0400
Subject: Alien Abductions The Real Deal?


Source: Psychology Today

http://www.psychologytoday.com/htdocs/prod/PTOArticle/PTO-20030527-000002.asp

By Kaja Perina <mailto:kaja@psychologytoday.com>
Publication Date: Mar/Apr 2003

Summary: Are alien abductions a misunderstood sleep phenomenon,
or apocalyptic warnings? The answer depends on which
constellation you work for at Harvard.

People who believe they've been abducted by aliens have always
resided at the farthest fringes of science, and the recent claim
by a UFO cult known as the Raelians that they had cloned a human
being does little to endear abductees to the mainstream. The
sect's leader, Rael, maintains that he was plucked from a
volcano by almond-eyed aliens who granted him an audience with
Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad, each of whom confirmed that humans
are descended from extraterrestrials.

But for every Rael, there are hundreds of workaday individuals
who claim to have been abducted by aliens. These individuals do
not flower into gurus; they struggle alone with memories of
unintelligible messages, temporary paralysis and humanoid
creatures hovering over their beds. Their stories don't always
check out, but their minds do: Psychological tests confirm that
abductees are rarely psychotic or mentally ill. Some 3 million
Americans believe they've encountered bright lights and incurred
strange bodily marks indicative of a possible encounter with
aliens, according to a recent poll.

It is a quandary that polarizes researchers at Harvard
University. One embattled psychiatrist, John Mack, M.D., argues
that these experiences cannot be understood in a western
rationalist tradition of science; researchers in the department
of psychology, Richard McNally, Ph.D., and Susan Clancy, Ph.D.,
counter that the explanation--though multifaceted--is hilarious
in its fundamental simplicity.

Mack, of Harvard Medical School, is a long-time champion of
alien abductees and a paranormal philosopher king of sorts. His
1994 bestseller, Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens, drew
international attention with the argument that "experiencers,"
Mack's term for the men and women he has debriefed, probably are
being abducted by aliens.

More recently, McNally and Clancy introduced alien abductees to
the laboratory to study trauma and recovered memory in an
experimental setting. They believe their subsequent findings
explain the entire abduction experience, including abductees'
refusal to accept the fact that transcendent, technicolor
encounters with aliens are no more than five-alarm fires in the
brain.

Harvard's ideological clashes over the interpretation of
anomalous experiences date to William James' tenure at the
university one century ago. Both Mack and James studied
psychology after training in medicine and tried to bridge the
gap between psychology and spirituality, only to be rebuffed by
Harvard's powers that be. For James, this culminated in
Varieties of Religious Experience, which rejected a rigorous
standard of evidence for divine experiences. "There is a
clinical literature and an experimental literature, and they
don't refer to each other," states Eugene Taylor, Ph.D., a
biographer of James and a historian who lectures on psychology
at Harvard Medical School. "Mack is a clinician making
observations about human experience, as opposed to cognitive
behavioral scientists, who say that if you can't measure it in
the laboratory, it doesn't exist." When it comes to people who
believe they've been abducted by space aliens, the two camps
agree on only one thing: "These people are almost never
psychotic," says McNally. "They're not lying. But Mack
entertains a range of explanations that are farfetched at best."

Will Bueche, a 34-year-old media director, has long had
nighttime paralysis and visions that "have no resolution and
seem out of place." For years, he considered them merely
suggestive--until he began witnessing beings while wide awake.
Some abductees had far more traumatic encounters. Peter Faust, a
45-year-old acupuncturist, believes he endured years of sexual
probing by hooded creatures who implanted chips in his anus and
stimulated him to ejaculation. After eight hypnotic-regression
sessions with Mack, and a battery of psychological tests in the
early 1990s, Faust concluded that he is yoked to a female alien-
human hybrid with whom he has multiple offspring.

The abduction narrative is a strange hybrid in its own right:
humiliating surgical invasion tempered by cosmic awareness.
Experiencers travel through windows and walls, tunnels and
space-time to reach the starship's examining table, where young
women's eggs are extracted and men's sperm are siphoned off.
Despite waking bruised and violated, abductees say their love
for beings in the alien realm can surpass any human bond and
generate a sense of oceanic oneness with the universe that
rivals the experiences of a world-class meditator. Faust says he
"realized we're not alone in the universe. There are beings out
there who care about us. But getting to this point is a long,
arduous journey, with a lot of people who want to deny your
experience."

Personality-driven explanations for why people with no overt
psychopathology report alien encounters have proliferated apace
with blockbuster movies about aliens. Psychologist Roy
Baumeister, Ph.D., of Case Western Reserve University, argues
that abduction reports are made by "masochists" who
unconsciously want to relinquish control of their lives. The
loss of control is manifest in humiliating encounters with an
alien race. To be sure, there is a surfeit of elaborate sex in
abduction reports; one study found that among abductees, 80
percent of women and 50 percent of men reported being examined
naked on a table by humanoid beings. In fact, many abductees
blame aliens for sexual dysfunction and emotional disturbances.

Psychologists have long surmised that abductees may be inclined
to fantasy and "absorption," the propensity to daydream or be
enthralled by novels. Both alien abductees and garden-variety
fantasizers report false pregnancies, out-of-body experiences
and apparition sightings. Some psychologists speculate that
people like Will Bueche and Peter Faust are simply "encounter-
prone" individuals with a heightened receptivity to anomalous
experience. Whatever the case, Bueche and Faust found a willing
listener in John Mack.

Mack has been on the faculty of Harvard Medical School since
1955, and in 1982 he founded the Center for Psychology and
Social Change, located in a yellow clapboard house just beyond
the university's campus. The Center aims in part to study
anomalous experiences, and has its post office box in Cambridge,
but the building lies just within neighboring Somerville. The
address is a fitting line of demarcation for a clinician who
straddled conventional science and altered states of
consciousness long before the publication of Abduction.

Mack founded the department of psychiatry at The Cambridge
Hospital in 1969; a program that has long attracted innovative,
Eastern-oriented psychiatrists. In 1977, Mack was awarded a
Pulitzer Prize for A Prince of Our Disorder, a biography of
Lawrence of Arabia. "Mack is in dynamic communication with the
humanities," says Eugene Taylor.

Mack has embraced traditions from Freudian psychoanalysis to the
guided meditation of Werner Erhard. In 1988, he began to
practice Stanislav Grof's holotropic breathwork, a technique
that induces an altered state by means of deep, rapid breathing
and evocative music. Mack believes he retrieved memories of his
mother's death, which occurred when he was 8 months old. "I was
raised in a tradition of inquiry," says Mack. "If you encounter
something that doesn't fit your worldview, it's more
intellectually honest to say, 'maybe there's something wrong
with this worldview,' than to try to shoehorn your findings into
an existing belief."

At 73, Mack appears regal despite his slightly stooped gait. His
handsome, deeply lined face and flinty blue eyes are quietly
compelling; he quickly earned a reputation for emotional succor
among the abductees he interviewed. Abductees including Faust
and Bueche cling to him like acolytes, often parroting his
theories.

Mack used hypnotic regression to retrieve detailed memories of
13 encounters with aliens, all chronicled in Abduction. He has
now interviewed more than 200 abductees. He says that he
ultimately endorsed abduction reports largely because he found
his subjects to be mentally competent. Some were also highly
traumatized and most were reluctant to come forward and
appropriately skeptical about their experiences.

Mack defends the use of controversial techniques such as
hypnotic regression because he prizes the experiential narrative
over empirical data. To debrief an abductee is to be "in the
presence of a truth teller, a witness to a compelling, often
sacred, reality." Mack says he was jolted when his subjects
reported receiving telepathic warnings about man's decimation of
natural resources. "I thought this was about aliens taking eggs
and sperm and traumatizing people," admits Mack. "I was
surprised to find it was an informational thing."

The faculty of Harvard Medical School, for its part, was
dumbfounded that Mack believed he'd stumbled on anything more
than an underreported cluster of psychiatric symptoms. From 1994
to 1995, Arnold Relman, M.D., professor emeritus of medicine,
chaired an ad-hoc committee that conducted a 15-month
investigation into Mack's work with abductees. "John did good
things in his career and gained a lot of respect. His behavior
with regard to the alien-abduction story disappointed a lot of
his colleagues," says Relman. The investigation ended with much
tongue-wagging but no formal censure. Mack was, however,
encouraged to bring a multidisciplinary approach to his study of
the phenomenon. "No one is challenging John's right to look into
the matter," sighs Relman. "All we're saying is, if you do it,
do it in an objective, scholarly manner."

In the spring of 1999, Mack invited astrophysicists,
anthropologists and a Jungian analyst who studies anomalous
experience in the wake of organ transplants to the Harvard
Divinity School, where they brainstormed with mental health
professionals and abductees. One participant was Harvard
psychology professor Richard McNally, an expert on cognitive
processing in anxiety disorders.

McNally told the assembly that "sleep-related aspects of the
experiences might be correlated with different parts of the REM
cycle." He was referring to the phenomenon of sleep paralysis,
but he hesitated to speak bluntly about it. Many abductees deem
sleep paralysis too mundane an explanation for their
experiences, so McNally didn't use the term, for fear of
"alienating" the very subjects he wanted to recruit.

Sleep paralysis is a common phenomenon--up to 60 percent of
people have at least one episode, in which the brain and body
momentarily desynchronize when waking from REM sleep. The body
remains paralyzed, as is standard during the REM cycle, but the
mind is semi-lucid or fully cognizant of its surroundings, even,
according to a Japanese study, if one's eyes are closed. The
experience can't be technically classified as either waking or
sleeping. For an unlucky handful of people, fleeting paralysis
is accompanied by horrifying visual and auditory hallucinations:
bright lights, a sense of choking and the conviction that an
intruder is present. The Japanese call it kanashibari,
represented as a devil stepping on a hapless sleeper's chest;
the Chinese refer to it as gui ya, or ghost pressure.

Sleep paralysis with hypnopompic hallucinations (those that
occur upon waking) can be so unexpected and terrifying that
people routinely believe they're stricken with a grave
neurological illness or that they're going insane. When faced
with these prospects, aliens no longer seem so nefarious.

But sleep paralysis and abduction don't always go hand in hand.
Consider the case of "Janet," a 52-year-old copy editor in
Chicago. Eleven years ago she endured a terrifying out-of-body
experience while lying in bed. Janet saw her head strapped in a
vise as a group of men looked on. Fuzzy images were projected
onto the back of Janet's eyes, visions she likens to "a 3-D
hologram engraving something into my head." Her first thought on
waking was of a brutal sexual assault she'd once read about.
McNally believes it is the sense of powerlessness in being
immobilized that triggers associations with invasive sexual
procedures.

Janet experienced terror and helplessness in the wake of these
messages she could not decipher, and sought the help of numerous
therapists. But she says she "never thought this had anything to
do with aliens. I thought it was something arising from the
depths of my subconscious."

Why, then, do some people who experience violent hallucinations
upon waking or falling asleep conclude that they have been
abducted? One possibility is that people embellish their
experience in the course of hypnotic regression. But McNally and
Susan Clancy speculate that alien abductees aren't just amenable
to suggestion under hypnosis; instead they actively create false
memories. They drew this conclusion while studying one of the
most contentious issues in psychology today: false memory
syndrome.

The question of whether or not people repress traumatic memories
was thrown into high relief 15 years ago, as psychotherapy
patients increasingly recovered memories of sexual abuse, often
through such porous techniques as hypnotic regression and guided
imagery. Some cognitive psychologists, including McNally, argued
that people rarely repress memories of abuse or trauma; if
anything, they are more likely to recall the incident. Sexual-
abuse victims remain silent "not because they are incapable of
remembering, but because it's a terrible secret," says McNally.
Other professionals argue that traumatic memories are easily
repressed through specific dissociative mechanisms.

In 1996, McNally and Clancy became the first researchers to
examine memory function in women who believed they had recovered
memories of childhood sexual abuse. They found that these women
were significantly more likely to create false memories of
nontraumatic events in a lab than were women who had always
remembered being sexually abused, or women who had never been
abused. (The findings are outlined in McNally's book,
Remembering Trauma, published this spring. See review, page 81).

False memory was assessed by asking subjects to study
semantically related words (such as candy, sugar, brownie and
cookie) and then identify them on a list that includes false
targets such as "sweet;" words that are thematically similar but
not previously presented. Members of the recovered-memory group
were by far the most likely to believe they'd seen the false
targets.

But McNally and Clancy could not ascertain whether the women had
in fact been sexually abused. Since it is unethical to create
false memories of trauma, the researchers did the next best
thing: They amassed a group whose recovered memories were
unlikely to have occurred. Those people were, of course, alien
abductees.

McNally and Clancy assembled a group whose members believed
they'd recovered memories (usually under hypnosis) of alien
abduction, along with a repressed memory group whose members
believed they'd been abducted but had no conscious memory of the
event. (This group inferred their abduction from physical
abrasions, waking in strange positions or sometimes just from
their penchant for science fiction.) There was also a
terrestrially bound control group who reported no abduction
experiences.

The recovered and repressed memory groups exhibited high rates
of false recall on the word-recognition test. Those with
"intact" memories of abduction fared worse than those who
believed their memories were repressed.

But could this type of false recall be a function of memory
deficits incurred through traumatic experiences? No, says
Clancy: "Real trauma survivors exhibit a broad range of memory
impairments on this task. Recovered-memory survivors--whether
the trauma is sexual abuse or alien abduction--exhibit just one
impairment on this task: the tendency to create false memories."

False recall is a source-monitoring problem, an inability to
remember where and when information is acquired: You think a
friend told you a piece of news, for instance, but you actually
heard it on the radio. "Human memory is not like a video
recorder," says Clancy. "It's prone to distortion and decay over
time. This does not mean that abductees are psychiatrically
impaired. I don't think they should be considered weird. If
anything, they're just more prone to creating false memories."

Subjects whose personality profiles indicated a high level of
absorption or inclination to fantasy were the most likely to
perform poorly on the word-recall task. Furthermore, says
McNally, every abductee in the recovered memory group described
what appears to be sleep paralysis.

Clancy and McNally outlined their findings in the Journal of
Abnormal Psychology last fall, whittling the abduction
phenomenon down to an equation of sorts. Susceptibility to
creating false memories, coupled with a disturbing experience
like sleep paralysis and a cultural script that allows for
abduction by aliens, may lead one to falsely recall such an
encounter. "You don't necessarily have to endorse these
experiences to create false memories," says Clancy. "You may
have just seen 'The X-Files' and thought, 'That's crap,' but
then you have an episode of sleep paralysis that freaks you out,
and the show is still in the back of your mind."

And among people wavering about whether or not they've been
abducted, hypnosis can push them to embrace this interpretation.
In a 1994 experiment that simulated hypnosis, psychologist
Steven Jay Lynn asked subjects to imagine that they'd seen
bright lights and experienced missing time. Ninety-one percent
of those who'd been primed with questions about UFOs stated that
they'd interacted with aliens.

Still, if the abduction experience is a misinterpreted bout of
sleep paralysis, why do abductees invest it with such emotion? A
videotape of a tearful Peter Faust undergoing hypnotic
regression is so powerful that Mack says he stopped showing the
footage; it freaked out even nonabductees, causing many to erect
"new defenses." Terror in the face of potentially false memories
was one issue McNally hoped to study with abductees. This
question brought him, in part, to the Divinity School
conference. "I wanted to know whether people really have to be
traumatized to produce a physiological reaction."

McNally collected testimony from 10 subjects with recovered
memories of abduction then confronted them with the most
frightening details of their own accounts--from violent trysts
to swarms of aliens around their beds. Six out of 10 subjects
registered such elevated physiological reactions, including
heartbeat and facial muscle tension, that they met the criteria
for posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

Interestingly, subjects with PTSD react physiologically only to
their own traumatic experiences, but the abductee group had
heightened responses to additional stressful scripts, such as
the violent death of a loved one. They even reacted to positive
scripts, such as viewing their newborn infant for the first
time. Such reactivity, coupled with high levels of absorption,
has been linked to the ability to generate vivid imagery,
according to McNally. In other words, abductees are more likely
to experience a traumatic--or positive--scenario as real, in
part due to their fertile imaginations. They will then react to
it as such. "Emotion does not prove the veracity of the
interpretation," McNally concludes.

For McNally, the most telling difference between abductees and
survivors of "veritable" trauma is not physiological but
attitudinal. Experiencers unanimously state that they're glad
they were abducted. "There's a psychological payoff," says
McNally. "This makes it very different from sexual abuse."
Trauma survivors of all stripes cite positive spiritual growth,
but, "no Vietnam vet says, 'Gee, I'm glad I was a POW.'"

It is understandable that memory lapses, as measured by poor
performance on a lab test, pale in comparison to communication
with unknown beings. And while abductees may feel assaulted by
aliens, they also feel special. For that reason, "They are not
trying to demystify their experience," says McNally, whose
deconstruction of sleep paralysis for one woman was met with a
polite smile and the exhortation that he should "think outside
the box." When McNally finally broached the term "sleep
paralysis" at Mack's conference, he says, "There was an awkward
silence, as if someone had belched in church."

"I'm not personally interested in what Susan Clancy found,"
admits Bueche, for whom the memory test was "50 bucks and free
Chinese food." I don't need evidence or proof. Most experiencers
are well beyond that. This is about what you can learn
regardless of whether it is physically real or interdimensional
or something grand that the mind is generating."

Mack counters that no combination of sleep paralysis and the
Sci-Fi Channel explains phenomena such as alien sightings by
school children in Zimbabwe who are wide-awake. "It doesn't even
come close," he says. Mack's second book, Passport to the
Cosmos, chronicles abduction as a cross-cultural phenomenon; he
finds evidence of sexual and ecological parallels to American
abduction reports on almost every continent.

Mack is currently at work on his third book, which examines the
clash between "scientific materialism and a nonrational point of
view." He increasingly distances himself from the question of
whether or not aliens exist in the physical world, focusing more
on a "consensus reality" that precludes us from even
entertaining such a possibility. "We void the cosmos of other
intelligence unless it can be proven," states Mack. On the work
of McNally and Clancy in the psychology department, a stone's
throw away, Mack says, "We're in different firmaments."







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                        Why Some Believe in Martians

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:16:05 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:57:35 -0400
Subject: Why Some Believe in Martians



Source: Psycology Today

http://www.psychologytoday.com/htdocs/prod/PTOArticle/PTO-20030527-000001.asp

By Kaja Perina
Publication Date: May 27, 2003

Summary: Many want to believe in creatures from outer space. The
belief that aliens are abducting people seems a moderate
assumption compared with the promulgations of UFO cults such as
the Raelians.

The belief that aliens are abducting people seems a moderate
assumption compared with the promulgations of UFO cults such as
the Raelians. Claude Vorhil, a.k.a. His Holiness Rael, alleges
that humans were genetically engineered by extraterrestrials
known as Elohim (the Hebrew word for "God" that Rael says is a
mistranslation of the term "those who come from the sky").

Rael argues that religious leaders from Buddha to Jesus are
merely alien ambassadors, and he is not alone in this
revisionist cosmology: Cults have always infused existing
religious traditions with esoterica known only to the leader.

Historically, these spiritual leaders bolstered their claims to
divine intelligence with travel to exotic locales, especially
the Far East. But in the global village of the 20th century,
gurus turned to other worlds. Followers of the Heaven's Gate
sect committed suicide to join forces with a UFO heralded by the
Hale-Bopp comet in 1997. A group known as the Order of the Solar
Temple staged mass suicides in Europe and Canada during the
1990s; members planned to relocate to a satellite of the star
Sirius.

This is not to say that all so-called UFO cults are self-
destructive. Many have origins in benign gatherings of alien
enthusiasts, so-called "client cults" in which individuals--many
with New Age leanings--follow a charismatic figure, minus the
indoctrination and brainwashing.

Astronomer-turned-UFO-chronicler George Adamski was the first
alien "contactee" to build a worldwide following in the 1950s,
according to Robert Ellwood, Ph.D., a professor emeritus of
religion at the University of Southern California. "The
contactee movement was fairly amorphous until it gained a more
solid, cultlike form in the Aetherians (a group founded by a
British mystic who claimed to communicate with the Cosmic Master
Aetherius) and later, Heaven's Gate and the Raelians,"says
Ellwood.

But Roswell enthusiasts are inevitably lumped together with
predatory cults, according to Eugene Taylor, Ph.D., Harvard
historian and author of Shadow Culture: Psychology and
Spirituality in America: "Once you get into the folk
counterculture, everything from the Dalai Lama to Jim Jones gets
filtered through the same lens, as far as the media is
concerned."








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                            Are we all Martians?

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:20:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:00:04 -0400
Subject: Are we all Martians?


Source: Daily Times - Pakistan

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=3Dstory_19-5-2003_pg6_2

Thursday, May 29, 2003

E-Mail this article to a friendPrinter Friendly Version

Are we all Martians?

By Dana Desonie

Could life have originated on Mars, traveled through space on a
rock, been pulled into Earth by gravity, then thrived in the
hospitable environment it found? As fantastic as it seems, it s
possible, say the scientists who study Martian meteorites.
Although they have known for decades that rocks blasted from
Mars are found on Earth, most scientists had thought that an
impact large enough to catapult an asteroid off the Red Planet
or the asteroid s fiery descent through Earth s atmosphere would
incinerate any life unlucky enough to be riding on it.

However, recent experiments on the interior of one Martian
meteorite show that its magnetic minerals had begun to lose
their magnetism, indicating that the whole rock never heated to
over 105=B0F. Scientists say this particular meteorite did not
transport life to Earth: it left Mars late in the Red Planet s
history, when the planet was almost certainly lifeless, and it
spent 15 million years getting to Earth, assuring that cosmic
rays would have killed anything onboard.

But four billion years ago Mars was warm and wet, a paradise for
bacteria and other early life forms. It s not a stretch to think
that life evolved on Mars, as well as on Earth, or even instead
of on Earth. And we do know that bacteria can survive the
travails of space.

In one experiment, one species survived six years in a satellite
orbiting Earth. In other experiments, two species were shown to
be able to survive an enormous gravitational pull and
bombardment by cosmic rays. In all, only a few hardy individuals
need to survive the space journey to colonize a new planet. Can
you say, mama?

A recent calculation shows that in the first one-half billion
years of our solar system s history as many as 50 billion
meteorites could have traveled between Mars and Earth without
being exposed to too much heat or too many cosmic rays for life
to survive.

And while it would have been rarer, since it s harder for a rock
to escape Earth s greater gravity, one billion potentially life-
carrying rocks could have traveled from Earth to Mars at that
same time. Who knows what (or who) future missions to Mars will
find? Studyworks








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 28

                        Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:02:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson


 >From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:55:26 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >>called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 ><snip>

 >Fantastic work, Amy. This is an excellent example of so-called
 >"rods", and is open to relatively easy replication under the
 >right conditions.

 >It will be interesting to see the response, if any, from such
 >characters as Jose Escamilla, et al. Mr. Escamilla seemed very
 >reluctant to correspond with me when I emailed him with some
 >'awkward' questions last year.


Sorry Amy, Dan and List but they don't look anything like Rods
to me. Nice try though and hats off to you.

Now prove ET's are fakes -

http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.


col







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                   Journey To The Future Of Sci-Fi Movies

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:33:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:08:27 -0400
Subject: Journey To The Future Of Sci-Fi Movies


Source: Newark Star Ledger - New Jersey

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/ledger/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/105324031
151420.xml

Sunday, May 18, 2003

The 'Matrix' saga has taken us to a new dimension, but is that
where we want to go?


by Stephen Whitty
Star-Ledger Staff

When "2001: A Space Odyssey" debuted more than 30 years ago,
director Franco Zeffirelli sent Stanley Kubrick a telegram.

"You made me dream," he wired, "eyes wide open."

It was a poetic tribute. It was even an oddly prescient one,
given the title of Kubrick's final film, "Eyes Wide Shut." But
it was also a welcome confirmation of what "2001" had set out to
accomplish.

Making us dream with our eyes wide open is what truly great
science fiction films do.

Ideally, they do it on several levels, mixing wondrous visions
of other eras with provocative questions about our own. "2001"
hit those heights in the '60s. Forty years earlier, "Metropolis"
had done the same.

And now the "Matrix" saga -- with its latest chapter, "The
Matrix Reloaded" -- bids to join that select group, with eye-
jarring visuals and a mythic story some fans have likened to a
Passion play.

"It's not the typical, shallow Hollywood movie," says David
McDonnell, editor of the sci-fi/fantasy magazine "Starlog." "It
has this great synthesis of ideas and concepts that just give it
incredible depth."

"It's a film which gets people thinking about intellectual
topics," says Glenn Yeffeth, the editor of "Taking the Red Pill:
Science, Philosophy and Religion in 'The Matrix.'" (BenBella
Books, $17.95). "It's sci-fi and philosophy for the MTV
generation."

Of course, not everyone is ready to admit a bit of metaphysical
MTV to the sci-fi pantheon just yet -- particularly not the
older writers who first set the standards and aren't impressed
by where the genre's headed.

Ray Bradbury, the "Martian Chronicles" author who has been a
legend for half a century, grumbles he hasn't truly enjoyed a
sci-fi movie in years. "There's a lot of crud out there," he
says. "The trailers alone are insults to your intelligence."

Larry Cohen, the "Phone Booth" screenwriter who created TV's
classic "The Invaders" and the cult hit "It's Alive!," is only
slightly more charitable. "Most of the movies I see, they're
overwhelmed by their special effects. The stories aren't very
good."

Although the debate over "The Matrix" continues -- "Is it a
paradigm of postmodernism, or just a kung-fu movie?" as Yeffeth
rhetorically asks -- the experts agree on one thing. Great
science-fiction movies have great stories -- or at least, great
questions.

What does it mean to be human? What will it mean if we can
travel through time or teleport matter? How can we manage to
exist in a world with apocalyptic weapons, and how could we
exist once they were used?

Unlike horror films, which create worst-case-scenarios (Imagine
if you were buried alive!), sci-fi movies propose best-case
scenarios (Imagine if you could live forever!) -- and then take
those suppositions to their logical conclusions.

Sometimes that conclusion may be horrifying -- or inspiring, or
troubling. Like the propositions themselves, the films change
slightly with each new generation, and each new generation's
worries.

In each case, the great movies show us new things in a new way.

The first great speculative films date from the period between
the world wars and, like their era, they worried about class and
conflict. In the 1927 "Metropolis," an enormous city rises on
the backs of its workers and nearly collapses thanks to a robot
provocateur. In the 1936 "Things to Come," the world burns in
battle until a priestly elite arrives and puts science in
charge.

Both films have dated a bit, but their power to make us dream --
  eyes wide open -- remains.

"'Metropolis' is a very silly film," Bradbury says, "but the
technical stuff is beautiful and it's got great moments. 'Things
to Come' -- that changed my life. I was about 15, and when I saw
that rocket going off at the end, and the stars ... that was it
right there: my love, my future, my desire."

After World War II, people's questions about the future changed
and so did speculative fiction. There was no longer any point in
asking if capital and labor could build a worker's paradise, or
if world peace might be within reach. The Depression and the
blitzkrieg had already answered that.

Great science-fiction turned to more personal issues. "The Day
the Earth Stood Still" questioned man's aggression. "The
Invasion of the Body Snatchers" examined identity and
conformity. "Forbidden Planet" explored the terrors of the id.

"Many of them hold up," says McDonnell of that era's films.
"'20,000 Leagues Under the Sea' is still a great movie. 'The War
of the Worlds' is a great movie. I saw 'The Day the Earth Stood
Still' again a year ago, and it hasn't dated at all."

As these movies urged us to see the world differently, they also
strived to tell their stories differently. Films like
"Destination Moon," "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and
"Forbidden Planet" highlighted streamlined sets and electronic
scores. The envelope kept being pushed.

Then "2001" pushed it right over the edge.

The film's breathtakingly real special effects made the once-
impressive "Forbidden Planet" look like "Buck Rogers." Its
breathlessly surreal screenplay rivaled Fellini's for shifting
symbolism and open-ended interpretations. It was, indeed, "the
ultimate trip," and although the studio played up the film's
druggy quality, many viewers found it deeply religious.

Not everyone was converted. Bradbury, who went to the premiere,
remembers it as "a six-pack film, because afterwards you went to
the nearest bar and drank a six-pack and tried to figure out
what the hell the damn thing was about." But "2001" set a new
set of benchmarks, both for what a great sci-fi film should look
like and what it could say.

Typically, Hollywood concentrated on meeting the first challenge
rather than rising to the second. Great special-effects required
only time and money, while great stories needed imagination.
While a few sci-fi films persisted in asking probing questions
(John Boorman's "Zardoz," Kubrick's own "A Clockwork Orange"),
most focused on building a better spaceship.

Buoyed by their own recent successes in other genres -- and
their lifelong love of science-fiction -- George Lucas and
Steven Spielberg tried to buck that trend. In 1977, both took
the genre a little further.

Lucas' "Star Wars" began, like many new movies, as a homage to
older ones -- the 1958 Kurosawa samurai film, "The Hidden
Fortress," and the ray-gun adventures of "Flash Gordon." But, to
that, Lucas added hints of Buddhist philosophy, familial
conflicts and cleverly conceived effects (a former hot-rodder,
he made sure the spacemen's ships had the dented, wired-together
look of old jalopies). It was still a sci-fi adventure, but one
with a strangely resonant Force.

Spielberg's "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" began with the
director's efforts to recapture not a movie from a childhood,
but a memory -- of standing outside with his father, and staring
wondrously up at the night-time New Jersey sky. His own script
finally delivered that aching awe -- as well as a suspicion of
Washington that still pervades modern sci-fi.

Both films were milestones -- although, as usual, not everyone
who followed them really saw the road they were pointing to.

"'Star Wars' was a great movie and it changed the genre," Cohen
says. "But whether it changed it for better or worse is another
question. Everything revolves around special effects now. People
are popping ray guns at each other and the screen is erupting
with action and I'm nodding off. ... Nothing matters because
nothing's at stake."

"'Close Encounters' is the best film of its kind ever made,"
Bradbury says. "It takes too long, but the transfiguration at
the end, with the splendid arrival of the mother ship -- that
makes up for everything. I was so amazed and changed when I saw
it that I went over to the studio to tell Spielberg what a
genius he was. And he said, 'You know, I never would have done
this film if I hadn't seen (your) 'It Came From Outer Space'
when I was a kid."

Visionaries inspire other visions, and a century of them have
inspired "The Matrix" saga. There are touches of half-forgotten
films like "Johnny Mnemonic" and "Tron" in it. There are also
some astonishing special effects, including trend-setting
innovations like the "bullet time" tricks that turn fast-moving
reality into frozen tableaux.

But like "2001" -- and "Metropolis" before it -- "The Matrix"
saga is also one of the rare, visionary sci-fi films that
couples a new kind of storytelling with a new kind of story.

"'The Matrix' was groundbreaking both visually and narratively,"
McDonnell says. "It was a great synthesis of ideas and concepts
from sci-fi movies, comic books, martial arts and a lot of
philosophers whose names I can't pronounce. ... That synthesis
had a tremendous effect on pop culture."

It's had a tremendous effect on pop culture fans, too. "It's
full of philosophical questions which have intrigued people
since time immemorial," Yeffeth says. "Is the world what we
think it is? What is reality? Plato and Descartes wrestled with
these questions."

Yet to critics, the movie's allusions to theology and literature
-- a nod to the Gnostic tradition here, a character name from
"1984" there -- can also feel like mere grad-school name-
dropping. Its invocations of Buddhist thought often go no deeper
than one of Yoda's aphorisms.

Ultimately, that's because directors Larry and Andy Wachowski
aren't illiterate but post-literate -- princes of a new
generation of filmmakers raised on comic books, computers and
MTV. Life, like "The Matrix," isn't just a game to them. It's a
video game.

That's what adults don't get when they complain nothing's at
stake here (and what the teen audience understands intuitively).
It's why Neo (and his enemies) can't be killed. It's why
everyone -- Neo, Morpheus, Trinity -- sounds like they have a
chat-room name. It's not meant to be reality. It's meant to be a
way-cool PlayStation upgrade.

Just as "Metropolis," "2001" and "Close Encounters" were all
perfect for their own eras, "The Matrix" is the vision our time
deserves. It's the final culmination of the movie-as-CD-ROM, the
product of 25 years of effects-driven fantasy film -- and,
perhaps, a prediction of what's to come.

Which is precisely what distresses some fantasists.

"I saw a reel of the special effects from 'The Matrix' several
years ago," Bradbury says. "And afterward I said to them, you
know, what you have there reminds me of Paris. Every year I go
there for Bastille Day to see the fireworks, but when the wind
blows, the fireworks disappear, and the sky is empty. You've got
fireworks here, too -- but when the wind blows, the screen is
empty. There's no story there to hold them."

Right now, "The Matrix" is holding audiences. Even with its R
rating and a crowded summer schedule, the sequel stands poised
to make hundreds of millions of dollars. Perhaps it deserves to.
Like the greatest sci-fi films, it is truly trend-setting both
in what it's saying and how it's saying it.

But what that vision ultimately says about the future of
storytelling is a question even the Oracle can't answer.



Sense of wonderment enlivens predictions

by Stephen Whitty
Star-Ledger Staff

The shape of things to come.

It's the full title of the H.G. Wells novel that later became
the movie "Things to Come." It's also what the very best
science-fiction films shows us.

Not actual predictions, of course. Sci-fi's accuracy rate there
ranks somewhere below Criswell's.

What good speculative fiction does is point out possibilities,
take us on journeys to potential futures. What the very best of
it also does is to take us on that trip in a truly astonishing
way.

These dozen visionary movies do just that.

"The Lost World"
(1925) Not the Spielberg dino drama, but one of its oldest
inspirations, as a stalwart hero discovers ancient creatures --
  and then foolishly brings them back to the big city. Directed
by Harry O. Hoyt, but stop-motion pioneer Willis O'Brien, who
later engineered "King Kong," is the true genius here, building
the template for every big-monster movie to come.

"Metropolis" (1927)
The German classic, recently restored and re-released. Even
director Fritz Lang knew that its moral -- "There can be no
understanding between the hand and the brain unless the heart
acts as mediator" -- was, at best, naive. But his images of the
future influenced a dozen other dystopias, and his robot became
the movies' first sexy female automaton.

"Things to Come" (1936)
H.G. Wells wrote this terribly earnest utopian drama that feels
as dated today as his dreams of a ruling technocracy. Still,
director William Cameron Menzies made this British picture --
  with its timely plea for world peace -- one of the first truly
serious, stylish sci-fi films.

"The Day the Earth Stood Still"
(1951) A refreshingly adult effort from Robert Wise that pointed
the way for Rod Serling and Gene Roddenberry by treating its
audience as grown-ups and its genre as useful camouflage for a
risky political message. Its sleek design was matched only by
its subtle Christian imagery.

"The Invasion Of The Body Snatchers"
(1956) What was noteworthy here weren't the effects, but the
relative lack of them, all in service of a calmly creepy film
from Don Siegel about pods taking over America. A powerful
warning about conformist group-think, be it Communist or anti-
Communist.

"2001: A Space Odyssey"
(1968) The finest, most influential speculative film since
"Metropolis." It remains a peak of studio achievement and
personal risk, melding groundbreaking special effects with
genre-shattering narrative experiments.

"Close Encounters of the Third Kind"
(1977) Another jump in special-effects quality, thanks to
Spielberg's painstaking attention to detail (his "Jurassic Park"
in 1993 would mark a further, purely technical move forward).
Yet beyond that, this film made two other contributions to sci-
fi films: a reborn sense of wonder, and a post-Watergate fear of
government.

"Star Wars"
(1977) Not just a great adventure, but a storytelling
innovation, wedding a fun genre formula to deeply mythic
elements. Lucas's series also inaugurated the modern sci-fi
franchise, for which the producers of "The Terminator" and
"Alien" are forever grateful, and added some Zen mind games, for
which the Wachowski brothers should pay royalties.

"Mad Max":
(1979) Post-apocalypse now, as Mel Gibson roams a desert world
where gas is a precious commodity and biker gangs rule the road.
A genuinely trend setting film from director George Miller,
destined to be followed by endless after-the-bomb shockers, two
sequels (with a third in preproduction) and far too many '80s
rock stars in black fingerless gloves.

"Blade Runner"
(1982) A commercial disappointment when it was released, Ridley
Scott's film soon became hugely influential, even creating its
own small sub-genre -- "cyber noir," a place of world-weary men,
drizzling rain and a future both bleak and pre-ordained.
Adapted, like "Minority Report" and "Total Recall," from a story
by the great Philip K. Dick.

"Brazil"
(1985) Terry Gilliam remains Hollywood's great, undisciplined
visionary. Even his fragmented failures (remember "12 Monkeys"?)
are more interesting than most people's successes. This odd
story played like a cross between George Orwell and Gilliam's
own Monty Python, but its mix of old and new technologies was
eye-catching and its mood both dark and hilarious.

"The Matrix"
(1999) Undoubtedly the most visually influential sci-fi film
since "Blade Runner," thanks to its video game-style battles, it
also gained fame for its mix of comic-book action and meditative
philosophy. Its nonconformist, free-your-mind message might
carry more weight if it weren't currently being used to sell
everything from electronics to soda pop.







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   May > May 28

               Re: Argentine Researchers Find Intraterrestrial

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:38:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:10:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Argentine Researchers Find Intraterrestrial


 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:06:32 -0400
 >Subject: Argentine Researchers Pick Up Intraterrestrial Waves

 >Source: Diario El Tribuno de Salta
 >Date: May 24, 2003
 >http://www.eltribuno.com.ar/salta/20030523_213309.php

 >Ufologists Pick Up Intraterrestrial Waves

 >** Ufologists recorced electromagnetic signals and radiation
 >emanating from an underground source**

 >Two scientists affiliated to the Fundacion Instituto Biofisico
 >de Investigaciones (FICI) headquartered in La Matanza and
 >directed by Pedro Romaniuk, one of the most well-known analysts
 >of the UFO phenomenon and an author of 20 books on the subject,
 >claimed having picked up radioactive signatures, microwaves,
 >levels of electricity and oscillations originating from the
 >depths of the earth.

 >Omar Hesse and Jorge Millstein surveyed the mountains
 >surrounding Cachi last week -- 157 km from the capital and 2,280
 >meters above sea level. After applying a Russian tester in the
 >vicinity of the Nevado de Cachi, they concluded that the signals
 >are not natural in origin, and rather originate by machinery
 >operated by intelligent beings (sic).

 >"The oscillations clearly indicate that kilometers beneath the
 >surface there is activity: alternating electrical waves, which
 >means a power source," said Hesse. "This could mean engines," he
 >added.

 >The area was not chosen at random: it was based on 4 film
 >recordings made by local mountaineer Antonio Zuleta between June
 >2000 and November 2002. All of them show analogous images--
 >strange, swiftly moving lights which appear to "plunge" into the
 >ground at the same point. The researchers calculated the site's
 >location and accompanied by Zuleta himself, reported to the area
 >some 8 km to the southwest.

 >"We will have to return with equipment of higher sensitivity and
 >equipped with depth rods (sic) to achieve greater precision in
 >the data," observed Millstein. However, despite the magnitude of
 >their discovery, members of the FICI were not impressed. "It's
 >just that this is one of the hottest areas of the planet
 >regarding extraterrestrial activity. It's a band that stretches
 >from La Poma to Cayafate and which has roused interest all over
 >the world, as we have attested through our worldwide
 >investigation network, where consultations regarding the area
 >are recurrently made." The two researchers estimate that
 >Zuleta's recordings and the signals recorded from the depths of
 >the earth correspond to a technology not native to our world.

 >"To those of us in this field, the possibility that vessels may
 >penetrate the earth is nothing new in the Andes, as depicted by
 >numerous stone records from Ecuador to Mendoza," they concluded.

 >[Translator's note: our readers will recall that Zuleta's
 >findings were hotly disputed a year or so ago. The FICI
 >organization's leader is also one of South America's better-
 >known contactees]


Hi Scott and List,

Just a local hot spot of emergence of military submarine
communication in the Ultra Low Frequency band (ULF) is my guess
until frequencies are outlined in some detail or cross-related
to those picked up in the sea. The UFOs seen could also be
being caused by ground settlement from ULF ie; Earth lights.


col








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   May > May 28

                          Secrecy News -- 05/27/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:02:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:12:59 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 05/27/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 45
May 27, 2003


**      NSPD 23 ON BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENSE
**      CIA MAY DECLASSIFY 1947 INTEL BUDGET TOTAL
**      GRAHAM CALLS FOR INTEL BUDGET LINE ITEM
**      GOSS AND HARMAN ON INTEL SECRECY
**      REEVALUATING US INTELLIGENCE ON IRAQ


NSPD 23 ON BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENSE

The full text of National Security Presidential Directive (NSPD)
23 concerning "National Policy on Ballistic Missile Defense" was
obtained by Bill Gertz of the Washington Times and reported in
the Times on May 27.

The Bush Administration's national security directives are
almost never seen by Congress or the public.  NSPD 23 is only
the second such directive to reach the public domain in full,
thanks to Mr. Gertz's magic fingers.

NSPD 23, signed December 16, 2002, differs in a few small but
interesting ways from the White House fact sheet on missile
defense policy that was published last week.

The Directive specifically cites North Korea's pursuit of
weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles as a
justification for U.S. missile defense programs.  And it notes
that "the United States will seek permission respectively from
the U.K. and Denmark to upgrade early-warning radars in
Fylingdales and Thule, Greenland."

See the full text of NSPD 23 here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/nspd-23.htm

See also "Bush Case on Defense Plan Cites N. Korea" by Bill
Gertz, The Washington Times, May 27:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030527-124651-5190r.htm


CIA MAY DECLASSIFY 1947 INTEL BUDGET TOTAL

The Central Intelligence Agency says it has not finally
determined whether the total amount of money spent on
intelligence in 1947 and 1948 can be declassified without
causing damage to national security and compromising
intelligence sources and methods.  But it told a federal court
that it will make such a determination by June 27.

The CIA had previously refused to declassify this information in
response to a 1995 Freedom of Information Act request from the
Federation of American Scientists.  Upon appeal, it reiterated
that refusal in December 2000, claiming that the requested
information was still properly classified, despite the fact that
budget information from 1997 and 1998 had been declassified.

But now, in the face of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit,
the Agency will either have to declassify the information or to
persuade a federal judge that it is still properly classified,
an outlandish claim that seems unlikely to be sustained even by
a deferential judicial branch.

"Will [Director of Central Intelligence George J.] Tenet really
put his name on a declaration swearing that budget numbers from
the Truman administration must remain classified?" a Washington
Post editorial asked incredulously last year.

The answer appears to be no.  In response to a court order to
set forth its schedule for defending its continued
classification of the 1947-48 budget numbers, the CIA indicated
only that it will formally respond to the request for disclosure
by June 27.

See this Joint Status Report dated May 22:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/status052203.html

See also "Central Intelligence Test," Washington Post, October
2, 2002:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30208-2002Oct1.html


GRAHAM CALLS FOR INTEL BUDGET LINE ITEM

In testimony before the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks
Upon the United States last week, Senator Bob Graham said that
one way to improve congressional oversight of intelligence would
be to consolidate all intelligence spending under a single line
item for review by a single congressional subcommittee.

To do so would necessarily imply disclosing the total
intelligence budget each year, Graham noted.  "So be it," he
said.

"I believe that, just as has occurred with the Department of
Homeland Security, that the intelligence agencies ought to be
lifted from the Defense budget and given their own budget," Sen.
Graham said.   "Then at least the public will know what the
bottom line for intelligence was and they can assess: 'That
seems excessive or inadequate.' Right now you can't even have
that debate because it's buried inside the big Defense
Department budget."

Remarkably, Sen. Graham indicated that DCI George J. Tenet had
endorsed this proposal.  "George Tenet has told me personally
that he would support this approach," he said.

That is noteworthy because DCI Tenet has just finished insisting
up and down under oath in federal court that declassification of
the 2002 intelligence budget total would cause unacceptable
damage to national security and intelligence sources and
methods.  If Sen. Graham accurately reported Mr. Tenet's view of
routine annual budget disclosures, this would be difficult to
reconcile with his sworn statement opposing a single budget
disclosure from two years ago.

See Senator Graham's May 22 prepared testimony presented to the
National Commission on September 11 here:

http://graham.senate.gov/pr052203.html


GOSS AND HARMAN ON INTEL SECRECY

Almost all of the congressional witnesses from both parties who
testified at last week's September 11 Commission hearing
identified excessive secrecy as a problem and an obstacle to
effective congressional oversight.

Describing the national security classification system as
"dysfunctional," Rep. Porter Goss, chair of the House Permanent
Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI), said his committee
intended to tackle the problem.

"The classification process has become such a chore, and appears
to me to be so dysfunctional, that we are taking that on as a
main piece of business for our oversight committee to deal
with," said Rep. Goss.

"Senator Moynihan led the way with some changes in the
declassification program. I was pleased to be associated with
him on that. That was one of his last pieces of legislation. But
it didn't go anywhere far enough, and it pointed out a problem
that we have -- not only not enough capability to declassify
when we should; we overclassify very badly. There's a lot of
gratuitous classification going on, and there are a variety
reasons for them. They are not all sinister by any means."

HPSCI ranking member Rep. Jane Harman, speaking of the
congressional joint inquiry into 9/11, made a related point
earlier this month.

"Even though our inquiry was completed in December of last year,
the declassification process is still ongoing. That is wrong,"
she said, speaking May 9 at the Woodrow Wilson International
Center for Scholars.

"If intelligence can be declassified in 48 hours for Colin
Powell's use at the UN, it shouldn't take more than 48 days to
declassify significant portions of the Joint Inquiry report. But
here we are, six months later, and still with no report."

"A public report should be available now. The inquiry was not
just an academic exercise to edify the Intelligence Community.
It was paid for by the American people. It was done for their
benefit. And as much of the report as possible should be
released to the public -- today," Rep. Harman said.


REEVALUATING US INTELLIGENCE ON IRAQ

The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence asked the
CIA last week "to reevaluate US intelligence regarding the
amount or existence of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq
and that country's linkages to terrorist groups... in light of
new information resulting from recent events in Iraq."

"The Committee is interested in learning, in detail, how the
intelligence picture regarding Iraqi WMD was developed," wrote
HPSCI chair Rep. Porter Goss and ranking member Rep. Jane Harman
on May 22.

See the text of their letter, which was first reported in the
Washington Post on May 23, here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/hpsci052203.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   May > May 28

                    One Bermuda Triangle Mystery Solved?

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:29:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:17:17 -0400
Subject: One Bermuda Triangle Mystery Solved?


Source: WBBH TV - Florida

http://www.nbc-2.com/News/stories/052603-bermuda-triangle.shtml


One Bermuda Triangle Mystery Solved?

Mark Greenblatt

NAPLES, May 26, 2003 - Almost 60 years ago, a group of World War
II airmen disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle, never to be heard
from again. Now a south Florida author and nephew of one of the
missing men thinks he's finally solved the mystery of their
disappearance.

The fabled triangle falls in the area between the southern tip
of Florida, Bermuda, and San Juan Puerto Rico It's where
hundreds of planes and boats have vanished without a trace over
the years.

In January of 1945, 19-year-old Sgt. William Geary set off on a
classified army training mission. Twelve planes, including
Geary's B-29, took off from Kansas flying towards Puerto Rico.
But Geary, along with 15 other airmen, never made it to the U.S.
province.

"Eleven planes landed in Puerto Rico. My uncle's was the 12th,
it was lost in the Bermuda triangle. It s been a mystery ever
since," said Tim Geary.

The mystery grew larger when 200 search planes couldn't find a
single sign of wreckage. But 50 years later, Tim Geary got
curious about what really happened to his uncle, William. So he
began a mission of his own to write a book about it.

The author s journey began 12 years ago. While searching through
his grandmother s attic, he discovered historic treasures, like
baseball cards from 1912 of hall of famers like Home Run Baker,
and Cy Young a card worth $100,000 in some circles. But it was
the documents he found next to the cards that provide clues to
his uncle's disappearance.

The documents led Geary on a trail through history and heroes,
and eventually to the priceless answers and the story his family
had waited for for more than half a century.

The major clue was a formerly classified weather report from the
Army that showed his uncle's plane apparently hit a severe storm
just before landing.

"It was so intense that they flew through hail and severe
lightning and winds over 100 miles per hour, which drove all the
planes off course," Geary said.

Geary put the rest of the pieces together and wrote them down
his book "B-29, The Lost Flight of 428," published just in time
for Memorial Day.

"He gave his life for our freedom. I think that's extremely
important to you, me, and everyone," Geary said.

Pivotal role in history
The surviving members of the 29th Bomb Group eventually went on
to play a pivotal role in the bombing of Tokyo. One of them won
a Congressional Medal of Honor for bravery.








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                         Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:10:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:28:16 -0400
Subject: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack


Source: SciFi.com - Chat Room

http://prod.scifi.com/transcripts/2002/drjmack1023.html

Interview with Dr. John E.Mack

Oct. 23, 2002

SCIFIMOD: Hi everyone, thanks for joining us here. I'm Ben
Trumble for SCIFI. Tonight we're pleased to welcome Dr.John E.
Mack. Dr. John Mack is a professor of psychiatry at Harvard
Medical School and a leading authority on the transformative and
spiritual aspects of alien encounters.

SCIFIMOD: Dr. Mack is the author of Passport to the Cosmos:
Human Transformation and Alien Encounters, the 1994 bestseller
Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens, and a Pulitzer prizing
winning biography of the Briitish adventurer and soldier T. E.
Lawrence.

SCIFIMOD: Brief word about the drill. This is a moderated chat -
- please send your questions for our guest to SCIFIMOD, as
private messages. (To send a private message, either double-
click on SCIFIMOD or type "/msg SCIFIMOD" on the command line -
  only without the quotes.)...Then hit Enter (or Return on a
Mac.)

SCIFIMOD: Do you have an opinion on where aliens come from?

JohnMack: The first task in addressing that question is moving
away from literal thinking

JohnMack: This star or that star

JohnMack: They may come from another dimension

JohnMack: One shaman asked them where they're from

JohnMack: and they answered Nowhere and Everywhere

JohnMack: They might come from a star system

JohnMack: Who knows

SCIFIMOD: <m6scott> to <SCIFIMOD>: Are abductions getting more
frequent now or have they slowed down?

JohnMack: It's hard for meto answer

JohnMack: I have only my own cases and those I know about

JohnMack: I have a general impression the famous types of
aductions of the late 90's are happening less frequently

JohnMack: It's more subtle

JohnMack: Beings that reach people

JohnMack: Balls of light

JohnMack: etc

JohnMack: It may be a mistake to use the term abduction rather
than encounter for many such contacts

JohnMack: Abduction is what humans do to each other

JohnMack: But all sorts of encounters don't literally involve
physical movement that we know of

JohnMack: GA

SCIFIMOD: any change in the way people are telling you about
thier abductions than say 10 years ago?

JohnMack: That's a very interesting question

JohnMack: Many people who talk to me are already pretty far
along in their knowledge

JohnMack: They know what's happened to them and they are very
weell informed

JohnMack: They're trying to understand how to discuss it with
family

JohnMack: How long it's been going on etc

JohnMack: They are less likely to come in overwhelmed by the
strangness of it

JohnMack: One of the difficulties is a self selection

JohnMack: It's a field now where abductees seem to seek out
researchers who refelect their feelings about the experience

JohnMack: So I may have of different expereinces than som,eone
else would

JohnMack: I don't know that they actually think in those terms

JohnMack: Hopkins looks at the experience this way

JohnMack: Mack looks at it that way

JohnMack: Barbara Lamb says this

JohnMack: But my sense is that the initial trauma seems less now

JohnMack: GA

SCIFIMOD: <deadgirl> to <SCIFIMOD>: how many people if any do
you think have encounters but dismiss them because of their own
disbelief

JohnMack: I would guess many

JohnMack: I see people who I may have been talking with for
months

JohnMack: who suddenly remember and encounter from years and
years ago

JohnMack: and they dismissed it

JohnMack: It's when they have a later experience as a reference
point that they begin to make the connection

JohnMack: Childhood experiences can be dismissed as dreams etc

JohnMack: GA

SCIFIMOD: <choocha> to <SCIFIMOD>: how are your relations with
the harvard faculty after your "difficulties" surrounding your
first book

JohnMack: I would say pretty good

JohnMack: I'm not retired but I'm past retirement age

JohnMack: And as I often say a Harvard Prof can only make a fool
of himself once

JohnMack: and I'm past that

JohnMack: I've become more sophisticated in how I frame my
arguments

JohnMack: Also I believe that a shift has occured in the culture

JohnMack: in the world view

JohnMack: That phenomenon like this are not as marginalized as
they were

JohnMack: The Speilberg miniseries coming up TAKEN couldn't have
happned ten years ago

JohnMack: There's a greater awareness now

JohnMack: We don't dismiss out of hand as quickly as we did

SCIFIMOD: ZO> to <SCIFIMOD>: Have you ever wondered if this
implant technology is used to see through our eyes, hear through
our ears, and to basically view everything that we do?

JohnMack: I never really thought about that

JohnMack: The only thing that made much sense is the idea of
tagging people to monitor them

JohnMack: The implant subject is one of the puzzling aspects of
abduction that never quite satisfies hard science investigation

JohnMack: It always remains a bit out of reach

JohnMack: My sense is that we're never going to pin all this
down in 3 dimensional reality with the usual tools of science

JohnMack: I read an article about near death experience

JohnMack: The writer made the point that they only people trying
to explain near death experience are researchers

JohnMack: The people who experience them don't need explaination

JohnMack: They know how profound it was

JohnMack: The same may be true for encounter experience

JohnMack: It is what it is

JohnMack: If we don't try to reduce it to our language we might
appreciate and understand more than we realize

JohnMack: Maybe we know a lot when we just appreciate the
interdimensional possibilities

SCIFIMOD: Is the present alien abduction experience universal
and worldwide? With a bit of digging can you find abductees as
easily say in the Guatemalan Highlands as you can in New
England?

JohnMack: I don't think it's been studied enough to answer that

JohnMack: What I know is that we've seen cases in South America

JohnMack: Australia

JohnMack: Turkey

JohnMack: Africa

JohnMack: The cases seem to show up where people look for them

JohnMack: The core expereince seem similar whether in Africa, or
Brazil, or New York

JohnMack: But how it's interpreted varies between cultures

JohnMack: There are a whole pantheon of "aliens" and demons and
other creatures in shamanistic cultures

SCIFIMOD: <choocha> to <SCIFIMOD>: Do you feel movements such as
the disclosure project or coalition for the freedom of
information will soon make any headway getting the public
informed of certain realities--------without the major media
ignoring or discrediting the "nonsense" subject of ET reality

JohnMack: It's already happening

JohnMack: The Disclosure Project aroused a lot of interest

JohnMack: A number of papers took it quite seriously

JohnMack: There was a press conference yesterday in Washington
asking the government to release information

JohnMack: Everytime thjere is a request the public enters the
dialogue

JohnMack: I don't think the government is the key here

JohnMack: I think it's a myth that the government is covering up
all that much of any real value

JohnMack: They may be covering up their own coverup

JohnMack: That's not to say there are no secrets

JohnMack: But I don't get the sense that they are truly
interested in abduction

JohnMack: They've never been interestyed in what I've done

JohnMack: There was a mini-series called Intruders in '92

JohnMack: Intelligence goons tried to shut him up after three
cases

JohnMack: I've seen hundreds and NOBODY has directly contacted
me

SCIFIMOD: I'd like to ask a question that isn't about alien
abduction. When the young man from California John Walker Lindh
was arrested in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban I was
reminded somehow of T.E. Lawrence. How do you think Lawrence
would view the current tensions between Islam and the West

JohnMack: He would be appalled at the division and hostility

JohnMack: He tried to bring Jews and Arabs togther

JohnMack: It goes against everything he valued

JohnMack: His spirit must be in great pain

SCIFIMOD: <aillann> to <SCIFIMOD>: Do most of your experiences
see UFO's? From your book it didn't sound like your interviewes

JohnMack: Oh sure

JohnMack: Maybe half have seen UFOs at one time or another

JohnMack: Often it's just lights in the sky

JohnMack: But many of them do see discreet craft at one time or
another

JohnMack: I was once at a MUFON meeting and it was striking to
me that the people who reported the most sightings were also the
people who had known encounters

JohnMack: So they do go together

SCIFIMOD: <ZO> to <SCIFIMOD>: Do you think it is possible that
Human beings genetically engineered, and cloned the "aliens" in
technological age thousands of years ago?

JohnMack: I have no idea

JohnMack: The whole genetic question is confusing

JohnMack: It's clear that eggs and sperm are taken

JohnMack: The assumption is that its for genetic manipulation

JohnMack: But there are no studies to show that our genes have
actually been altered

JohnMack: That the genes of abductees or their children have
been changed

JohnMack: The more you investigate all this

JohnMack: The more you must insist on scientific evidence

JohnMack: But when you opproach all this through science it
becomes evasive

JohnMack: That may be the wrong methodology

JohnMack: That's why I've looked at the profound experience that
stands in its own light

JohnMack: Whether the alines are concrete or spirit beings that
appear in our space

JohnMack: If there are 100's of thousands of encounters why
don't we see more actual objects

JohnMack: I tend to downplay the literal experience for the
mystical

SCIFIMOD: <UMichPsychonaut> to <SCIFIMOD>: what do you think of
Jungs ideas on the collective unconsious and its relecence to ET

JohnMack: If you mean by the collective unconsious that we are
all having the same idea at more or less the same time, I don't
think so

JohnMack: If you mean there is a resonance between our inner
lives and outside physical world perhaps

JohnMack: As above so below

JohnMack: But that doesn't discount physical reality

SCIFIMOD: Skeptics seem to view alien abduction reports either
as hoax or delusion, lumping them at times with visions of the
Virgin Mary, angel sightings, etc. Despite the trauma often
associated with abduction experiences are they in any way a form
of religious ecstasy?

JohnMack: Some intelligences are embodied, like some of the
beings

JohnMack: And some are not

JohnMack: There can be beings throughout the cosmos that range
from dense beings like us to formless bodies and in beteween
states

SCIFIMOD: Last Question

SCIFIMOD: <choocha> to <SCIFIMOD>: Do the ETs have any sense of
comradery with us ---such as being "brothers" or do they look at
us more as specimens, from what you can see

JohnMack: That's very much in the eye of the beholder

JohnMack: Some people are frightened and see them as cold and
indifferent

JohnMack: Others feel a strong sense of bonding and love

JohnMack: Some even claim mates on the other side

JohnMack: And sometimes the same person starts out as angry and
frightened and screaming

JohnMack: And over time they form powerful bonds in later
encounters

JohnMack: But I'm involved too as the observer

JohnMack: It's an ongoing phenomenon

JohnMack: The composer and the musician are co-creative.

JohnMack: I want to tell you all about a film called TOUCHED

JohnMack: It's a one hour documentary made here and in Brzil
looking at the abduction phenomenon.

JohnMack: The producers are Blind Dog Films and Laurel Chitin

JohnMack: The website is www.blindogfilms.com

JohnMack: It'll be showing in Boston in February

JohnMack: I bring this up because of the timing and all the
attention SCIFI is bring to the phenomenon

JohnMack: Laurel can use everybody support in preparing for
releasing the film next year

JohnMack: We all need to work at legitmizing the whole subject

JohnMack: And a movie like hers will have a broader chance to be
seen if we open the filed further

JohnMack: I want to thank you all for coming

JohnMack: Good night

SCIFIMOD: We'll open the floor now

SCIFIMOD: Thanks everybody








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                   Protecting Earth From Scum Of Universe

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:21:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:21:21 -0400
Subject: Protecting Earth From Scum Of Universe


Source: The Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/133/science/Protecting_the_Earth_from_the_scum
_of_the_universe+.shtml

5/13/2003

Protecting The Earth From The Scum Of The Universe

And Vice Versa

By Wendy Wolfson
Globe Correspondent

NASA is preparing a series of expeditions to Mars and Jupiter's
moon, Europa, to search for alien life. What will happen if we
actually find what we are looking for - and bring it home?

John Rummel has given the matter a lot of thought. As NASA's
planetary protection officer, Rummel's mission is to safeguard
our solar system from cross-contamination of life forms. There
is no denying that Rummel's job title is comic-book cool. A
former program scientist for the Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence, or SETI, his job is to quarantine extraterrestrial
samples until it is proven that they are not a threat to Earth
before releasing them for scientific study.

NASA brings samples back to Earth because analysis can be much
more exhaustive in labs at home than with the limited equipment
spacecraft can bring on site, Rummel explained. The testing and
instrumentation of previous Mars missions may not have been
sophisticated enough to detect life.

According to Rummel, the samples should be brought back
"responsibly enough that the benefits outweigh the risk and to
assure people that their tax money is not being spent to give
everybody on Earth a very bad" - he paused - "shock," a la "The
Andromeda Strain," Michael Crichton's thriller about a
mysterious plague of alien microbes loosed upon the world by
returning space probes.

As epidemics like SARS sweep the globe, why would we need to
fret about the remote possibility of invading space microbes?
"SARS is something I would hope we would never have to deal
with, with respect to outer space; that something is at liberty
in a population of humans or some other population because it
was never contained properly," Rummel said.

It is thought unlikely that an Andromeda-type virus from Mars
would spread on Earth, since Earth viruses have evolved to use
human and animal hosts to replicate. Rummel suggested that if
there were living organisms on Mars, we might encounter their
viruses or parasites before we find the organisms themselves.

"What we worry about, of course, is not that we would find a
virus that is predisposed to parasitize organisms that don't
exist there, but something that might have a way of life that
might not be recognized by our defense mechanisms.

"The unknown unknowns are the ones that will get you, to
paraphrase the defense secretary."

Rummel said he also worries about protecting other planets from
our germs. As we are intruders in space, our microbes could
sully life-detection experiments, and there are also ethical
worries about the unknown impact we might have on the ecology of
other systems. "Can we look at life [on other planets] without
screwing it up?" he asked.

Indeed, Planetary Protection's motto is, we protect "All of the
planets, all of the time." Rummel had it printed up on bumper
stickers.

"We know that there are natural processes that exchange material
between planets," Rummel said. "Over time, those natural
processes may have, in fact, caused contamination events." So
Martians `R Us? Conceivably, the initial life forms on Earth
that eventually ended up as humans might have originated from
such a "contamination event," Rummel said.

AL84001, a 4.5 billion-year-old Mars meteorite that was found in
Antarctica in 1984, contains tantalizing hints of liquid water
and organic compounds - the basic building blocks of life -
  present in the early Martian crust.

The expectation is that life on Mars could be fairly similar to
life on Earth. Chances are it would be carbon-based, detectable
by our current methods of DNA analysis. Rummel's Planetary
Protection checklist for Mars rocks lists the questions that
people want to know, such as, "Is there anything that looks like
life, and has a chemical signature? Is there an attempt at self-
replication? Is there an adverse effect on workers and their
surroundings? Are me and my neighbors going to die as a result
of some stupid NASA project?"

It is Rummel's job to make sure that the answer to the last
question is "no."

NASA also wants to thoroughly test life conditions on Mars to
prepare for the eventual arrival of humans. Rummel mentions a
haunting scenario: What if there is something that the
astronauts catch on Mars that could prevent them from coming
back? They would have to be quarantined indefinitely.

To ensure that the interiors of spacecraft sent on life-
detection experiments to Mars and Europa are squeaky clean, they
will be swabbed down with chemical disinfectants. Bacteria are
amazingly robust. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is studying
bacteria that are resistant to the Clorox and ethanol used to
sterilize clean rooms, the supposedly microbe-free laboratories
where scientific experiments are done.

Just to be safe, spacecraft parts involved in sample-collection
are also heat-sterilized before launch. The 1975 Viking Lander
was baked in a several-story-high oven for 54 hours at 232
degrees Fahrenheit to kill off any microbial hitchhikers. A
technical challenge is developing materials and instrumentation
that can withstand being cooked at high temperatures. It is
thought that space radiation and the harsh conditions of the
Martian surface will take care of anything on the spacecraft
surface.

Compliance is a serious matter. Rummel is an "ambassador of good
will to project managers." He believes in diplomacy, but will
use brute force to maintain spacecraft-hygiene standards. He has
the authority to shut down a launch, if necessary, but said that
if it gets to that point, then he wouldn't be doing his job
right.

NASA may have violated basic bio-containment principles with the
1969 Apollo lunar mission, by letting the capsule from the moon
mission go directly into the ocean, risking possible
contamination of the Earth to safeguard the lives of their
astronaut-heroes. At the time, scientific concern about the moon
harboring its own life forms was disappearing, but concerns
about human safety in spaceflight are still with us.

In 1977, seven months after Viking landed two missions on Mars,
scientists discovered that strange life forms lived in the
bubbling thermal vents deep beneath the sea, radically expanding
our concept of what kind of life could exist on other planets.
Alien life might very well be the scum of the universe - and
their parasites. Extremophiles, anaerobic microbes that live in
the slime at the bottom of Boston Harbor, in toxic waste dumps,
and abandoned mines, and that respire iron and acid, may be
models of what ancient life on Earth looked like. New evidence
of liquid water on Mars and oceans underneath the ice on Europa
makes the possibility of life more likely, and prompts the
question, what else are we ignorant of?

The next Mars Exploration Rovers are scheduled to launch from
Cape Canaveral in June to search for life. If Rummel has done
his job right, they will be as clean as a whistle, ready to
collect samples from Mars, and perhaps snare some potential
inhabitants, helping us learn more about how life on Earth came
about. Perhaps we will go all that way to find a bit of
ourselves: Rummel would just rather it not be some joyriding
microbes from Florida.








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                      Adventures In FOIA-land A Roundup

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:48:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:56:53 -0400
Subject: Adventures In FOIA-land A Roundup


Adventures in FOIA-land: A Roundup

By Larry W. Bryant

"A government that seeks to conduct its affairs under the utmost
secrecy (rather than the utmost openness) can do so mostly by
way of the three 'tions': deception, manipulation, and
intimidation - all ideally suited for keeping the hoi polloi
uninformed (or misinformed) about UFO reality." - Larry W.
Bryant (Jan. 28, 2003)

THE DOI CHRONICLES:

Let's start this roundup with another predictable response from
the FOIAmeisters at the U. S. Department of Intransigence (er,
Dept. of the Interior).

In his May 16, 2003, letter to me, FOIA appeals officer William
W. Wolf proclaims:

"This concerns your April 20, 2003, Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) appeal (FOIA 2003-151), which was received in this Office
on April 21, 2003. Your FOIA appeal pertains to the denial of
your fee waiver request by the Office of the Secretary. Your fee
waiver request is related to your March 7, 2003, FOIA request
for copies of the Standard Archeological Plan for the excavation
of the Roswell UFO-crash-landing debris field. In your FOIA
appeal, you presented your reasons for receiving a fee waiver.
In addition, the Department has received numerous e-mail
messages from individuals who support your fee waiver request.

"Your FOIA appeal is with the Office of the Solicitor awaiting
legal review. The extraordinarily large number of FOIA appeals
that the Department has received has created a heavy workload
which will delay the Department's response to your appeal.
Please be assured that the Department will make every effort to
provide you with a determination on your appeal as soon as
possible. If you have any questions regarding your appeal, you
may contact me on (202) 208-5339.

"Your have the right to treat the delay in responding to your
appeal as a final denial of your request and to seek judicial
review in the United States District Court for the District in
which you reside or have your principal place of business, the
District in which the records subject to your appeal are
located, or the United States District Court for the District of
Columbia. However, the Department hopes that you will defer
action until a substantive decision has been reached on your
appeal.

"The Department regrets the delay and appreciates your
consideration in this matter."

Notice, readers, the convenient form-letter wording that Wolf
resorts to here, just as he did with his recent response to my
interrelated appeal No. 2003-144. What's more, shouldn't
Congress be looking into why the volume of DOI FOIA appeals
seems so large as to engender an open-ended processing delay?
Note, too, that Wolf fails to tell me the exact number of
appeals cases comprising the backlog. Should I file an FOIA
request to discover that bit of information? As I continue to
grapple with these profundities, I presume that other
researchers might wish to jump in with their own letters of
support to my two DOI appeals. If so, be assured that, at the
rate things are going, Wolf & Co. will have little trouble
pigeonholing them. Even better: send a copy of your appeals-
support letter to your congressperson, with the request that
(s)he seek from Wolf a more satisfactory handling of not just my
two appeals but also anyone else's languishing in the DOI Black
Hole of Appeals Adjudication.

THE STATE OF STATESMANSHIP:

For its part in this update trilogy, the FOIA-processing system
at the U. S. Department of State offers the following letter to
me from one Margaret P. Grafeld, director of IRM programs and
services (the letter being undated, but its envelope being post-
marked May 21, 2003):

"Case Control No. 200301092:

"I refer to your letter dated March 25, 2003, requesting under
the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act (Title 5 USC
Section 552) release of records maintained by the Department of
State on a series of messages to our embassy in Canberra in 1975
on the subject of 'hostile aerial craft.'

"The Department of State has a number of record systems. Its
Central Foreign Policy Record File is an automated centralized
records system, containing substantive foreign policy documents.
Additionally, offices within the Department and Foreign Service
posts abroad maintain files specific to their operations.
Information about the Department and the mission and functions
of its individual bureaus and offices, as well as its posts
abroad, may be found at our website, www.state.gov or in the U.
S. Government Manual published by the Government Printing Office
and available at most public libraries.

"Based on the subject matter of your request, we searched the
record systems most likely to maintain responsive records: the
Central Foreign Policy Record File. After a thorough search of
this system conducted by professional employees familiar with
its contents and organization, no records responsive to your
request were found.

"I regret that the Department's response to your request is not
more positive. Should you have any additional information that
would assist us in identifying or locating the Department of
State records you seek, please let us know within 60 days of the
date of this letter, and we will be pleased to resume the
processing of your request. Send additional information to:
Office of Information Resources Management Programs and
Services, A/RPS/IPS, SA-2, Room 6001, U. S. Department of State,
Washington, D.C. 20522-6001. You may also direct questions
concerning the processing of your request to the same address,
or telephone (202) 261-8314.

"The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, in Oglesby v. Department of
the Army, 920 F.2d 57 (D.C. Cir. 1990), ruled that a 'no record'
response constitutes an adverse determination, thereby requiring
an agency to give appeal rights to the requester. Our
determination that the Department does not have any records
responsive to your request may be appealed within 60 days of the
date of this letter. Although I believe that our search effort
has been thorough and complete, I want to be sure that you are
aware of this court decision.

"Appeals should be addressed to: Chairman, Appeals Review Panel,
c/o Appeals Officer, IPS/PP/IA, Room 6001, SA-2, U.S Department
of State, Washington, D.C. 20522-6001. A copy of the
Department's appeal procedures is enclosed. Please refer to the
case control number shown above in all correspondence concerning
this case."

While it fails to explicitly say so, Grafeld's letter, by
inference, accepts my FOIA requester status as that of a
journalist, judging from the letter's implicit waiver of any
records-search fees. That capitulation to the fee-waiver-
rejection appeal I sent to State on April 28, 2003, will come in
handy should the Department of the Interior decide to fight me
in court over THEIR mislabeling of my requester status.

Meantime, no amount of speedy processing or ungrudging
appeasement can excuse or mitigate State's failure to produce
the sought-for records. Such permanently valuable "essential
evidence" of official reporting of, and reaction to, hostile
interference by UFO-borne activity against any U. S. space
satellite HAS to exist somewhere. If State truly no longer
possesses the records, then where's the record log showing their
final disposition (e.g., destruction, inter-agency transfer,
archival retirement, etc.)? If State has inadvertently
destroyed, lost, or otherwise mishandled the records, then
how/when/why/by whom did such a callous act of mismanagement
occur? These questions will form the heart of my forthcoming
appeal of State's "no records" determination.

Incidentally, the U. S. Defense Advanced Research Projects
Agency, one of the multiple addressees of my March 25, 2003,
FOIA request, has failed to respond at all to it. This failure,
of course, violates the very letter, let alone the spirit, of
the Act, and will set in motion an appropriate round of appeals
and litigation. Stay tuned.

BACK TO COURT:

Within the next few weeks, I and another researcher expect to
file an FOIA lawsuit in U. S. District Court for the District of
Columbia. My co-plaintiff and I will be citing the intransigence
and non-compliance of the two co-defendants in the case of an
Air National Guard UFO-intercept mission near Waldorf, Md., on
July 26, 2002: i.e., the U. S. Department of the Air Force and
the U. S. Federal Aviation Administration. The former agency has
declared "classified" all records pertaining to the event, and
the latter has chosen to stonewall the requester's efforts to
access ALL FAA-generated/received records about it. In the
meantime, for a masterful, in-depth analysis of this pivotal
case in the politics of UFOlogy, see Joan Woodward's article
"The Washington, D.C., Jet Chase of July 26, 2002," just
published in the winter 2002-03 issue of the "International UFO
Reporter" from the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies in
Chicago.







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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:10:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:51:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Ledger


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:20:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:52:04 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

<snip>

 >>Where in the world does the crazy idea originate that the alien
 >>autopsy footage is the best evidence we have for ET visitation?
 >>I have a whole chapter on it in my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC. My
 >>conclusion is very negative and I am in the Fox film! And yes, I
 >>met with Santilli twice etc etc. Except for Ed Gehrman, who else
 >>on this List agrees with that viewpoint?

 >>Ian, I surely wish you would be specific about who believes what
 >>rather than filling us with your generalizations without
 >>providing any evidence to support them or specifics as to just
 >>who believes what...

 >Believe me, Mr. Friedman, I have never believed wholeheartedly
 >in the AA film - especially considering its background (or lack
 >thereof). But considering the somewhat touchy state of things in
 >Ufology regarding things that have yet to be proved or
 >disproved, I thought it best to go with what seems to be the
 >general consensus that since it hasn't been proven that it IS a
 >fake, that it could very well be a dead alien. I don't
 >personally believe that -- not even a little bit -- nor do I
 >agree with that rather peculiar reasoning. When I said the AA
 >film was our best evidence, I meant that, considering some
 >photographs and films that alleged to show aliens (both dead and
 >alive), the AA film is among the most widely known, most
 >examined, and most controversial.

 >My apologies for the miscommunication.



Hi Ian,

Like Stan said, the AA film was a none starter, for anyone with
half a brain. What are we going back now about 6 years? There
were so many obvious gaffs in the film and the fact that
Santilli wouldn't come out on the film. The lack of the 4th
wall, the grainy film, out of focus for the close ups as some of
the obvious reasons.

The use of the term "most ufologists", whatever the hell that
is, grates a bit too.


Don Ledger







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                   Re: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:27:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:54:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - Bueche


 >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:28:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Subject: Re: 'Signs' Of Alien Arrival? - Balaskas

 >At the Ontario MUFON meeting in Toronto yesterday, one of the
 >members who is very interested in crop circles and has closely
 >studied this phenomenon to my surprise made reference to "sheep
 >circles" during her presentation to us.


I was expecting something more like this:

http://www.beyondcommunion.com/demo/sheepcircle.jpg








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              Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 02:21:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:01:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien - Hebert


 >From: Santiago Yturria <SYTURRIA@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:29:13 EDT
 >Subject: Amy Hebert's Photograph Of An Alien

 >Following your statements about alleged UFO photos and videos,
 >rods, IFOs etc. I found in my archives that in 1995-96 you
 >conducted and published an investigation under the name of:
 >"Alien Convention ". A case of alleged alien encounter and
 >abduction involving a family and a neighbor and most important
 >with photographic evidence.

Hi, Santiago:

I didn't feel like I gave your questions (and accusations) the
attention they deserved so I am going over this again - point-
by-point.

I seriously doubt you kept this information in your "archives"
because I found just about everything by doing a Google search.

 >In July 1997 you posted here your report of this case under the
 >suggestive name of Photograph of an Alien giving a short summary
 >of the elements of this story. I will quote some of your
 >statements.

<snip>

 >You signed Yellowrose, why not your real name?

I started out using the nick-name of "Yellowrose" on the
internet because that is what I thought you were suppose to do.
If you bothered to look at the address at the beginning of the
post, my full name is clearly stated (well, my full name minus
my middle name which I hate because it sounds like some country-
western singer, "Amy Lou").

Some of the posts you probably found were taken from letters I'd
written to assorted lists I was on at the time and various web
masters liked my comments and asked permission to post my
letters on their web sites. Some were just posts to lists that
became articles.

After using just the nick-name "Yellowrose" for a while, I began
using my real name. BTW, Santiago, the nickname of "yellowrose"
was given to me by a friend from Jersey because I am from Texas.
Yellowrose is a common nick-name (note the "129" after
"yellowrose" in my address, lots of yellowroses out there).

I have noted that even you have used three different names in
the past: "SantiagoYturria Garza", "Santiago Yturria" and even
"Santiago Yturria Heron".? I also note that you often accuse
others of not using their "real" name or not using their full
name yet you do the same. What is your problem, Santiago?

 >And there was
 >not a single reply to your July 1997 post. Maybe no one got
 >interested in your story.

Actually, Santiago, I got a lot of replies, only under a different
heading.

 >Perhaps the alleged alien photos were
 >not credible at all. In any case I will give you my personal
 >opinion. At least you will have mine.

How nice of you.

 >>Well, it took me a year but I finally got what appears to be a
 >>photograph of an "alien"posted on a web site for all to see."

 >First of all I find this statement of yours very reckless and
 >frankly awakens suspicions and distrust. An actual photo of an
 >alien ? I would have used other name more moderate to the story
 >and reserved the alien photo issue for the content of the report
 >once the reader have known all the facts of the case and as a
 >reference of a posible evidence from the witnesses but with high
 >reserve.

If you bothered to notice, I often referred to the term "alien"
in quotations most of the time. Anything I have reservations
about I will put in quotation. I did not like using the term at
all but since that was what the general public used for
reference to these types of phenomenon, I used the term for
communication purposes.

Also, if you bothered to notice, I usually referred to any
beings mentioned by the witnesses as "beings". Even then, I was
not comfortable with the term. It was very hard to find the
right terms to communicate the story so I just tried to relate
the information as best I could and let others, like you, pick
it apart.

I did not want to title the article "Alien Convention". I took
the term from one of the descriptions by the main witness,
Cathy, when she described it as it looking like an "alien
convention".

 >You said it took you a year to convince you this photo presents
 >an authentic alien. It took me only five minutes to convince me
 >that there was nothing there that suggests it's an alien body or
 >something like that.

Actually, I don't know what the photo's represent anymore. But I
was there and interviewed the witnesses and saw the expressions
on their faces while they told their stories. There were also
several odd events that occurred during these interviews that I
still cannot explain.

 >You presented in your report a photo, several retouched copies
 >of the same photo signaling some supposed "bodies", a red eye, a
 >house and enlargements, some drawings made by you of a probe, a
 >pipe, a reptilian alien, a grey alien, an alien woman and two
 >more male aliens.

The images I presented were not "retouched". I presented the
original images along with the outlined images for comparison.

The drawings made by the main witness are clearly indicated in
the text (if you bothered to read it) while any artist
renditions are also clearly indicated.

 >I will refer to the "Alien photo "in question. This is a black
 >and white photo, at least the one you posted so I don't know if
 >the original is in color.

The original photo's were in color (and there were more
photo's). The web pages you accessed were rendered in black and
white because I had a request to present the article in black
and white for publication purposes. The "bw" in the address
stands for..."black and white".

 >Under the name of bobbw the image
 >presents a house wall on the left side and a big flash of light
 >at the center. The quality of the photo is poor and only
 >presents white spots and shadows.

 >The image is distorted and may give the false impression of
 >capricious forms if you are in the mood to "find something
 >"after hearing the witnesses testimonials. In this case the
 >dreadful "Alien ".

You are beginning to sound just like me, Santiago! I'm so glad
you've learned something from me.

 >As you mentioned in your report you also discovered an "Alien
 >"in the photo plus some more intriguing features:

Again, note that I refer to it as a "being" not an "alien".

 >"Figure 1 is the photograph in which the image of a being
 >(referred to as "Being 1") on the sliding glass door was found
 >after the photographs were developed. Figure 2 is the same
 >photograph in Figure 1 with descriptions and outlines added for
 >clarification."

 >As you are an abductee Amy I suppose you got impressed by those
 >ladies testimonials and by simple auto-suggestion you convinced
 >yourself there was indeed an actual alien in the photo plus the
 >other features.

I am not nor have I ever claimed to be an "abductee". I have had
unusual experiences and I explored abduction phenomena but it
did not explain my experiences. There are and were people who,
to this day, insist I am an abductee but I do not call myself an
abductee nor do I have any memories of having been abducted.

As for what was/is in those photo's, I don't know. After
releasing the information, I realized there just wasn't enough
evidence to convince me let alone anyone else. Even with the
photographs, it was all too bizarre. To this day, I just can't
believe it and I don't think I ever really believed the story
wholeheartedly. If you take the article out of its original
context and Zeitgeist of that day, it doesn't make much sense.
That was the way many abduction stories were written at that
time.

 >But if you have received this photo without
 >knowing anything about the story would you have found anything
 >unusual ? I bet you would'nt because there's only white dots and
 >shadows there. I always say in these cases: With a little bit of
 >imagination you may find...

You should know, Santiago. I've did a little review of _your
work_ and reached a similar conclusion about you (see my next
post).

 >Your report resulted incomplete and inconclusive for me because
 >you are not mentioning where it took place, in what city and
 >it's important. Only the dates of the alleged encounters but not
 >the full names of the witnesses but this is comprehensible if
 >they wanted to protect their privacy. By the way you were
 >writing a book at that time and this is a terrific story.

If you had bothered to read the introduction at:

http://thevanguard.tripod.com/acibwless.htm

you would have known all the relevant details.

The book I was writing at the time did not even include this
case in its format. I was writing a book about correlations
between 5 phenomena but stopped when I reached the last 2
chapters. I needed more answers and have been looking for them
since. I could not decide if the correlations I found were due
to correlations between human encounters with phenomena or due
to correlations between human _interpretations and perceptions_
of phenomena. In other words, were there really correlations
between and among various phenomenal experiences or were these
correlations due to perceptions of the human psyche which
correlate naturally as an aspect of human nature. At this point,
it's a toss up.

I put this case on the back shelf a long time ago due to lack of
sufficient evidence and lack of time to conduct further
interviews. That and I am not sure I have the courage to go back
to that house. Whether or not the events actually happened as
told by the witnesses, I personally saw things I cannot explain
and you can imagine what that does to a "skeptic" like me.
<grin>

 >I found many elements missed in this investigation despite the
 >fact that it took you a long two years. It seems that "Bubu "
 >finally convinced you and decided to go public without any
 >reserve proclaiming you had the ultimate evidence, the
 >infallible proof of aliens among us: "A photo of an Alien".

I regret using that phrase and have since learned to be more
precise in my work and presentations. BTW, I later learned that
I had spelled "Bubu" wrong. I was trying to call it "Bubba" -
  which is a joking way of referring to a friend or relative (I
took the term from the Gulf Breeze sightings and the phenomenon
called "Bubba" by local residents).

 >Amy you really amaze me. Your path as an experiencer and
 >researcher has been a disconcerting one, changing boats and
 >flags so often reveals to me a volatile criterion derived from
 >an undecided conviction.

 >Reviewing this report I found very difficult to understand that
 >it was written by the same Amy Hebert that has a website devoted
 >to expose UFO photos as false promoting the distrust in every
 >UFO evidence that may appear without any concern to the source
 >and the testimonials.

Unlike you, Santiago, I have learned from my mistakes as well as
my successes and have became more scientific in my work. You
judge me without reviewing the timeline of my experiences in
relation to my writings and research. If you had been paying
attention, you would have noticed that it was right around 1997
that my perceptions began to change. Now let me see.... what was
it that happened in 1997 that I keep referring to? Oh, yeah,
there was that unusual moon-like object that I (and two other
witnesses) saw on the night of June 7, 1997 that changed my life
and my perceptions forever.

I began as an abductions researcher (not an "abductee") in 1992
then all of a sudden everything changed right around 1997. Why?
Because I saw something that blew my mind so much I became
obsessed with finding out what the he!! it was, why it was there
and who made it. Since 1997 I have studied just about every UFO
report I could find and continue to do so. I also launched an
extensive review of every kind of exotic man-made technology
known to the public - and then some. But it was my primary
studies of camouflage, concealment and deception that led me to
my current perceptions. And guess what I found, Santiago? I
found a lot of hoaxes, misidentifications and charlatans but I
also found a level of deliberate deception you would not
believe. No, I am not the one doing these deceptions, I'm the
one trying to find a way to explain it.

There is a reason why I attempt to expose the misperceptions and
hoaxes, it's called separating the wheat from the chaff. You
should try it.

My studies into CC&D are also connected to why I have a hard
time calling something a "UFO", "a genuine UFO", "anomaly", etc.
There are man-made objects out there imitating what the public
perceives as UFO's to the extent it's hard to tell what's a real
UFO and what's not. Just because something looks and acts like a
UFO doesn't mean it is one.

 >This is my personal opinion and if you feel upset I'm sorry but
 >I speak open and straight. Amy it's now your turn.

Thank you for your feedback.

And since it is now my turn, I have taken the privilege to
review some of _your_ work, Santiago (see my next post).

Sincerely,

Amy Lou (Uck!) Hebert

PS - I am removing the article "Alien Convention" from my web
site in a few days because it does not have sufficient evidence
to support the claims made by the witnesses involved. If I have
time in the future, I intend to do a follow-up and see what
results.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 28

                    Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:05:59 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stevenson


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:03:14 -0700
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:04:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >>They may look like same dunes, but the 'dunes' are really
 >>Martian polar ice accumulations. I'm not sure whether they are
 >>carbon dioxide or water ice, but they are ice of some type, so
 >>I'd expect the darker 'cactus-like growths' atop them to
 >>possibly be wind-exposed crystalline growths of material that
 >>froze into crystal at it rose (in a less solid form) up through
 >>fissures from a warmer environment beneath the ice cap. The
 >>wind-blown ice 'frost' would then tend to accumulate around them
 >>just as the white sands of Padre Island accumulate along old
 >>fence lines, making it look as though the old fence posts grew
 >>out the tops of dunes.

 >>I think we should be very cautious about interpreting those dark
 >>'growths' as plants, even though they remind us of such. There
 >>seem to me to be much more parsimonious possible explanations,
 >>such as I propose, above.

 >I agree that the simplest explanation is likely the best. So far
 >the fastest loading image for what you see, remains the USGS
 >file:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >Mac did indeed fine the corresponding images (several versions
 >in fact) at the Malin SSS site:

 >http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18/images/E17/E1701475.html

 >Its the images on the left that pertain, the RH set is of
 >something else.

 >The LH links there are dreadfully long, and some of them show
 >little or nothing!

 >Probably the best one is this:

 >http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18/full_gif_map/E17/E1701475.gif

 >... which appears sideways in comparison to the USGS image.

 >Again, its best seen with a DSL connection.

 >I've gotten nothing but run-around trying to get some
 >interpretation of the images.

 >Peeling back the USGS URL got me here:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/

 >... where I read at bottom"

 >"For comments or questions regarding images represented on these
 >pages and image processing considerations, please contact Annie
 >Bennett. "

 >I clicked on that and got an email address. Here is Annie's
 >response:

 >"Dear Mr. Hatch,

 >The development team for this web site are not scientist. We can
 >only assist in questions pertaining to design and development of
 >the web site. Please direct scientific questions to:

 >ktanaka@usgs.gov OR geosci@wunder.wustl.edu

 >Annie Bennett
 >U.S. Geological Survey
 >2255 North Gemini Drive
 >Flagstaff, Arizona 86001
 >TEL: 928-556-7210
 >EMAIL: abennett@usgs.gov

 >- - -

 >OK, nothing from Annie. I emailed both addresses she suggested,
 >24 hours ago. No response yet, but a third party I never heard
 >of came back with this:

 >"Dear Mr. Hatch,

 >I afraid I'm not able to help you either, not being a geologist.
 >You might look at the Malin Space Science Systems web site
 >(http://www.msss.com), run by the developers of the MOC camera
 >that acquired the image in question. I believe this web site
 >offers interpretations of some of the more unusual looking
 >images.

 >Susan Slavney
 >---------------------------------------------------------
 >Ms. Susan Slavney (slavney@wunder.wustl.edu)
 >Washington University .. St. Louis, MO 63130

 >- - - -

 >How Susan Slaveny got my message I do not know. Maybe she is in
 >charge of public emails.

 >You would think that between the USGS, Washington University,
 >Geosciences Node, NASA Planetary Data System (PDS) http://pds-
 >geosciences.wustl.edu/ .. Malin Space Science Systems themselves
 >and Gawd knows who else, that somebody could posit some
 >reasonable scientific interpretation of the image.

 >Are they all scratching their head too maybe? They've had 5 or 6
 >weeks to come up with something.

 >Again, for the file-size, the USGS image (top link above) is by
 >far the clearest and most dramatic in appearance. The "fence-
 >posts" look more like pine trees to me, they kind of jump at
 >you. A few look toppled over. I have saved the image separately
 >as a 435 KB .jpeg file in case the Internet loses it.

 >I'm glad Mac brought this up. Even if the explanation is
 >perfectly prosaic, its definitely something new to me. I was
 >wondering if somebody didn't hack the USGS site, doctor a
 >legitimate image and replace the original. Having found it
 >(slower, poorer) on the Malin site now, I doubt that.

 >I might send the USGS (best) image-URL to a few news outlets,
 >speculative science sites and the like. Maybe they can light a
 >fire under the experts and get some scientific theories brewing.


Hello Mac, Larry, Ray and List

The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
from:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size. I
indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a tunnel
leading into the area at:

http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

(a 283 Kb gif file extracted from the above ida image). There is
also some evidence that said rover is affecting the dark upstand
type things near it.


Very interesting

col










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 28

                          Filer's Files #22 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:32:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:14:45 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #22 -- 2003


Filer's Files #22 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
May 28, 2003
Webmaster: Chuck Warren
Website: http://www.georgefiler.com/ ]www.georgefiler.com/
To subscribe: Majorstar@aol.com
Sponsored by: http://www.filer.unfranchise.com/
Filer Unfranchise.com

FLEET OF UFOs OVER WISCONSIN AND ARGENTINA

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. Mars vegetation looks like cactus, Photos of
Earth from Mars, New York - grayish disk shaped object, Georgia
MUFON investigation continues, Kentucky - UFO sighting over Ohio
River, Illinois - strange alien creatures seen, Wisconsin -
  three flying spaghettios, Oklahoma - hovering rectangle with
searchlight, California - three flying cigars, Washington -
  green sphere

Ufologists pick up underground electromagnetic signals, UFO
fleet over Argentina and two more calves found mutilated,
Netherlands - photos of UFOs, Denmark - very sharp light fading
out and in Baku, Azerbaijan - UFO seen by hundreds for two-
hours. Files now read by 100,000 intelligent people.

MARS VEGETATION LOOKS LIKE CACTUS PLANTS

Larry Hatch sent me a photo of Mars from a government website.
He writes, " From what looks (to me) like the upper ridges of
sand dunes, and almost exclusively there, rise vertical
formations that one fellow suggested was cactus. I doubt that,
but I'm at a loss to find a more likely explanation. A few of
them look like pine trees (which I also doubt), some look like
they fell sideways, still others look like clumps of sagebrush.
If there is a geological explanation, I would like to know why
the formations are not larger and more numerous on the sand
dunes. The web page offers relevant at the Malin MSSS website.
Thanks to Larry Hatch, larry@larryhatch.net Photo is at:
http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg
. [ http://www.nationalufocenter.com/ ] NationalUFOCenter.com/

We're moving closer to Mars each day for the closest approach in
decades, and 2003 is the best year to visit Mars in the next two
decades. Earth and Mars are around 93 million miles apart on the
same side of the Sun. We're at the nearest approach for complex
orbital paths needed for successful landings. Three landing
missions are planned to takeoff in June for Mars. A European and
two American probes have different mission profiles, but all
will attempt to find water and possibly life in Mars' ancient
since 1997. The European Beagle 2 will land on the arid plain of
Issidis, about 10 degrees north of the equator. It is a site
chosen to be warm enough for Beagle to work and low enough for
Beagle's parachutes to allow a safe landing. The two US rovers,
will touch down near the equator, halfway around the planet from
each other. This spectacular focus on the red planet should
begin in the next five weeks, culminating after a six month
journe amazing announcements.

ALIEN VIEW OF EARTH AND THE MOON

A new picture from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft,
currently orbiting Mars, shows the first-ever image of its kind
not only shows Mother Earth as a tiny alien world in the vast
darkness of space, but also includes Earth's moon. The camera
aboard Mars Global Surveyor photographed Earth and Jupiter in an
alignment, as seen in the evening sky of Mars, at 9 a.m. EDT,
May 8, 2003. South America is the white area to the right with
North America above it.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/22m
http://www.nationalufocenter.com/ ] NationalUFOCenter.com/

NEW YORK - GRAYISH DISK SHAPED OBJECT

EAST MEADOW -- Two friends were walking outside on April 25,
2003, at 8:10 PM when they looked up at the sky and saw a
grayish disked shaped flying object. The witness says, "I told
my friend to look up and then we both watched it for about ten
seconds than it instantly disappeared." Thanks to Peter
Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/ ]National UFO Reporting
Center

GEORGIA MUFON INVESTIGATION OF LIGHTS

Tom Sheets State Director reports, "Our investigator's have
undertaken the joint NUFORC/MUFONGA inquiry in Meriwether
County. The witness interviews went well, and Jim and Olivia
appeared with Peter Davenport on the national Rense Program. The
Gwinnett Daily Post featured an article regarding this
investigation of strange fragmented lights. The below link will
carry you to the on-line GDP edition and the article. It turned
out pretty nice, as have most of the past GDP stories about our
group. While th Kudos to Staff Writer Laura Ingram...she
certainly writes with class! I spoke with the Sheriff of
Meriwether County a few days ago. He is not familiar with any
other citizens that have reported such events in the county. The
Sheriff stated that he would check some other sources and advise
me if anything turned up. This case is mostly completed, but
some minor "mop up" chores remain and will be completed shortly.
"UFO Magazine" rece confidential NIDS project on the "Gorman
Ranch" in NE Utah, where certain events described therein, have
also been reported in Georgia. These are things other than the
routine UFO report. One of the NIDS physicists that worked on
this secretive project was ALL EARS about a year ago when I
posted the info about the S. Fulton area police officer that
encountered the floating rectangle of light in his darkened
bedroom (the rectangle that later fragmented into This ranch has
been called a possible "portal" area by the scientists involved.
Best and Semper Fi! Tom Sheets, SD MUFONGA@webtv.net

KENTUCKY - UFO SIGHTING OVER OHIO RIVER

ASHLAND - On Thursday, May 1, 2003, the witness was looking out
his 5th floor room in the Ashland Plaza Hotel at a developing
lightning storm to his right and saw a UFO about 3:30 PM. He
states, "I noticed an object about the size of a small car
floating in the air over the river - I'm not sure of the
altitude, but it was a little less than twice as high as the
bridge." It was moving to the left, in the direction of the
wind, as I could tell from the flag in front of the courthouse
across the street. Alth deliberate manner, without the vagrant,
flapping, unstable motion of, say, a plastic bag. Apparently, it
made no sound. It was black and roughly triangular in shape. It
was either changing shape in motion or rolling somehow. I
thought it was a kite or a paraglider someone was flying off the
back of a boat, as it was following the course of the river.
That theory was shattered when it continued over the bridge.
Shortly afterwards, it devia an invisible speck in the distance.
It was an UFO at least as far as I'm concerned, if only for the
simple fact that I couldn't identify it during the ten minutes I
observed. Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/
]National UFO Reporting Center

WISCONSIN -THREE FLYING SPAGHETTIOS

WINNEBAGO, OSHKOSH COUNTY -- UFO Wisconsin Reports by Lee B. Two
recent sightings to report: May 15, 2003. My dad and I were out
in his backyard with a telescope and a digital camera, watching
the lunar eclipse. At some point that night, while I was star
hopping with my binoculars to locate a Messier object, I saw 3
very distant shapes move across my field of view. I instantly
started following it/them through the binoculars. They were so
faint I knew I wouldn't be able to find them again if I looked
away even a second. My girlfriend was right next to me and I
told her what I was seeing, and she said she could barely see
something moving up there in the same direction. The objects
appeared to me as 3 orange/red shapes, the light appearing in a
ring about the object, not as a solid sphere of light. They
moved steadily east, and eventually disappeared in the trees. At
first glance, I was just intrigued. And I didn't think of them
being odd until I saw how they moved independently! It wasn't
one fixed set lights; all 3 seemed to bob towards and away from
the other while they continued on their path.

On May 20th, I was setting up my telescope; an airplane flew
over my head low in the sky, heading south. Then 3 lights
appeared again in the sky almost exactly at the same position I
noticed them last week, except this time they were dramatically
bigger. All I could do was poke my dad and point to them, and he
was absolutely astonished. They were very large this time, 3
very distinct orange/red rings, like 3 Spaghettios that again
were heading east over Lake Winnebago, seeming to sway and swarm
about each

since he was a teen, and he had no explanation for what he saw,
at least no earthly one. After doing some research today on the
web, I hadn't found anything that really resembled what I saw
until I saw this site. The video clip by Jim Jordan from 7-20-02
(View video at:
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/video_gallery/v2002_0720_ufodaze.htm
l, near bottom of the page), shows perfectly at one point how 3
of the lights moved about each other
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/ ]UFO Wisconsin.com/

ILLINOIS - STRANGE CREATURES

My sister and her friends described what they saw to me on May
2, 2003, party out at her house out in the country at 3:30 AM.
There were almost twenty kids there. They had set a fire in
between the house and an adjacent field. The party wound down at
around 2:45 in the morning. My sister who is 17, and her two
friends started to clean up. They were unloading some chairs
when my sister saw a figure standing a little off the driveway
by the house. She motioned her friend to look; they were a
little scared s back up towards the house, and the figure was
gone. My sister described it as appearing to look like maybe it
was a man, and it had lighter colored, or white clothing on.
Once the van was started, they all convinced each other, that
the figure or person was probably E's dad just checking up on
them. They then headed back down towards the fire to resume
cleaning. About 3:20 AM, they headed up the driveway and into
the grass, and down the hill towards lights lit up "frozen
things." There were strange figures or creatures or something in
two separate rows. She says maybe fifteen in each row, and
thirty in all. She said, "They were three feet to four feet
tall." They were directly in front of the car about fifteen feet
away from them. She describes them as having a Christmas light
head, and that the heads were connected to the body but she
couldn't see how. She says their arms were up, but she couldn't
s people she says, dark gray or brown in color. They didn't
move. Not at all she says. She says they were just frozen in
these two separate rows. My sister immediately began to cry, and
then both girls screamed for E to get the car moving. She peeled
out and they headed to town. The girls drove around for two
hours until they finally got enough courage to go back as the
sun came up. She hasn't been able to sleep, or eat, and when she
told us what happened she co fighting back tears. To say that
she was shaken up is an understatement. Thanks to Peter
Davenport [ http://www.nuforc.org/ ]National UFO Reporting
Center

OKLAHOMA - HOVERING RECTANGLE WITH SEARCHLIGHT

ADA - The witness claims, "I did not believe in aliens, until
now, when my best friend and I drove along a well-traveled
highway on May 7, 2003, I saw a search light out of the corner
of my eye at 9:05 PM." At first, I figured it was an airplane
because it was moving through the sky and it was low, and might
be landing at the airport. I really didn't pay that much
attention until my best friend asked me what it was? I looked
again and the object had come to a complete stop and had a
searchlight of some

no sound. We continued to stare at the object. We, then, decided
to turn around and come back. To turn around and drive back by
the sight where we saw the object took a maximum of 45 seconds
and the object was gone from sight. If the object had been a
helicopter, not only could we have heard it and felt the force
of the spinning propeller, but also when the helicopter flew off
we would have seen it in the sky. Airplanes don't hover.

ARIZONA - EGG SHAPED UFO

ARIZONA CITY On May 1, 2003, at approximately 2303 hours, in the
northwest sky, I noticed what appeared to be a slow moving egg
shaped star. It was moving in a southwest direction. As it
reached the middle of the sky, it turned on a bright white
light, which illuminated for miles. The light lasted for
approximately 10 seconds, and it was instantly shut off. At this
time, the craft started its ascent at a very high rate of speed
and disappeared among the stars in the sky. I have seen this
happen approximat Thanks to Peter Davenport

CALIFORNIA - THREE CIGAR SHAPED GREEN FLYING OBJECTS

NORTHRIDGE -- On May 7, 2003, four witnesses were playing poker
when Karin noticed a UFO out the window about 10:30 PM. We got
up to look out the window and realized in no way was it a plane
or helicopter. The clouds were very low and we didn't know what
it was. We saw this very weird thing moving from south to north.
There were three green cigar shaped flying objects. First they
were flying slowly, but then they separated and one flew east,
the other two joined it five seconds later and they increased
scary and creepy! Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nuforc.org/ ]National UFO Reporting Center

WASHINGTON GREEN SPHERE

YAKIMA - The witness reports seeing a green sphere about fifteen
minutes after midnight on May 6, 2003, as he was driving south.
The object was 1/2 to 3/4 the size of the moon and could have
been a meteor. It came into view traveling from east to west, it
then disappeared and then reappeared a split second later. Peter
Davenport spoke with this witness and felt he was quite
credible. The green sphere had a long trail behind it that
seemed too large for a meteor. Thanks to Peter Davenport

CANADA - CONE/TRIANGULAR OBJECT MAKES TERRIFIC SOUND

DURRELL/TWILLINAGTE NF -- It was around 10:45 PM, on May 8,
2003, and the witness was in bed talking on the phone, when both
heard the same loud noise fly over them at the same time. It
sounded like a plane was in trouble and about to crash. The
other person on the phone lives about five kilometers away so
the noise covered a large area. The witness reports, "I got up
and ran to the window and just above houses on the hill was a
sort of cone or triangular shaped object. (I couldn't really
tell because it white/yellow, and green. They were blinking and
the object was quite large. It hovered for about 2-3 minutes and
zoomed off quickly. It looked as if it were spinning so fast the
colors of the lights combined. It vanished over the hills
shortly after. There were several people who saw it: Myself, my
brother, a guy from school, my father and the person I was
talking to on the phone could hear it. I'm sure there were
others as well, but it o who are possibly witnesses. There are
no military bases or airports in the area. I have seen planes
and helicopters in the night's sky before but there is nothing
to explain the sight I saw last night.

HOUSTON, BRITISH COLUMBIA - Investigator Brian Vike reports the
sighting of a triangular shaped object around March 15, 2003, is
being seen by a number of people over a two month stretch and
just recently. The family, who reported this sighting, said they
were caught off guard by what they witnessed. A low and slow
flying triangular shaped craft cruised from the east to the west
from the direction of Mount Harry Davis and continued on it's
flight path over the mountains towards Grouse Mountain and the
Smithers area. The object in t very large. Also there were a
number of lights which ran along the underside of it, and close
to the outer edge, but rather dim. It was completely silent and
dark in color. From the witnesses vantage point from their home
they guessed it took the object 15 to 20 seconds before it went
out of their line of sight.

HBCC UFO Note: I visited this family on the same day I met with
the other folks who witnessed and reported their sighting, which
was of a flying "C". Both the C shaped object and this triangle
sighting come from the same area west of town. Once again we
have some very credible older folks who never saw anything like
this before. Many residents claim there were a large number of
sightings in the last two years

MONTREAL -- On May 22, 2003, the witness reports sighting a
large half ring over the skies of downtown at 3:35 PM. It did
not look like a chem-trail because it was a perfect circle. The
sky is somewhat overcast but the sun is definitely shining
through. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 Editor: Canadian
Communicator - Paranormal Magazine email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website:
http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm

CHILI - UFOLOGISTS PICK UP UNDERGROUND ELECTROMAGNETIC SIGNALS

Diario El Tribuno de Salta -- Ufologists recorded
electromagnetic signals and radiation emanating from an
underground source on May 24, 2003. Two scientists affiliated to
the Fundaci=F3n Instituto Biof=EDsico de Investigaciones (FICI)
headquartered in La Matanza and directed by Pedro Romaniuk, one
of the most well-known analysts of the UFO phenomenon and an
author of 20 books on the subject, claimed having picked up
radioactive signatures, microwaves, levels of electricity and
oscillations originating from th the mountains surrounding Cachi
last week -- 157 km from the capital and 2,280 meters above sea
level. After applying a Russian tester in the vicinity of the
Nevado de Cachi, they concluded that the signals are not natural
in origin, and rather originate by machinery operated by
intelligent beings.

"The oscillations clearly indicate that several kilometers
beneath the surface there is activity: alternating electrical
waves, which means a power source," said Hesse. "This could mean
engines," he added. The area was not chosen at random: it was
based on four film recordings made by local mountaineer Antonio
Zuleta. All of them show analogous images--strange, swiftly
moving lights, which appear to "plunge" into the ground at the
same point. "We will have to return with equipment of higher
sensitivity an the data," observed Millstein.

However, despite the magnitude of their discovery, members of
the FICI were not impressed. "It's just that this is one of the
hottest areas of the planet regarding extraterrestrial activity.
It's a band that stretches from La Poma to Cayafate and which
has roused interest all over the world. Zuleta's recordings and
the signals recorded from the depths of the earth correspond to
a technology not native to our world. "To those of us in this
field, the possibility that vessels may penetrate the earth is
not Ecuador to Mendoza," they concluded. The FICI organization's
leader is also one of South America's better-known contactees.
http://www.eltribuno.com.ar/salta/20030523_213309.php

UFO FLEET OVER ARGENTINA - TWO MORE CALVES FOUND MUTILATED

NECOCHEA - Inexplicata reports that researcher Guillermo Gimenez
is investigating the maneuvers of some ten UFOs flying over the
Port of Necochea-Quequ=E9n.on Sunday, May 25, 2003, The eyewitness
is an engineer with the Necochea Power Station, belonging to the
Centrales de la Costa Atl=E1ntica S.A. (CCASA) company. He claims
the objects were of considerable size, white in color and were
flying between 8:20 and 8:30 hours. The objects maneuvered in
absolute silence and vanished in the direction of Parque M
resort. Necochea is once more a constant area of UFO
manifestations.

El Diario de la Pampa reports, "Raul Chaves and Ester Urban,
field researchers specializing in animal mutilations pointed out
that "so far this year we have accounted for some 60 mutilations
in La Pampa and Buenos Aires." They noted that "thanks to the
fact that they already know us and know that we research the
subject, cattle ranchers inform us when mutilated animals are
discovered. We then obtain samples which we send to the
University of Buenos Aires and document everything on
videotape." They refer first of these took place in the "El
Martin" ranch 45 km northwest of the Pampan capital and involved
a year-old calf weighing 200 kgs. On the left side of its head,
the absence of the outer ear was evident along with the entire
inner ear, its eye, and an oval-shaped flap of skin, measuring
some 30 cm. in diameter. The absence of vulva, edge of the anus,
larynx, and pharynx and a segment of the trachea, as well as
part of the upper muscular mas property located 30 kilometers
north of Santa Rosa. It was a 2 year-old calf weighing 250 kg.
missing half of its tongue with a cauterized incision and
missing the left ocular orb. In both cases professionals secured
samples for subsequent study and analysis. They invite those
interested in the subject to visit their website at
http://www.ciufos.com. Thanks to Guillermo Daniel Gimenez, and
Translation (C) 2003, Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic

NETHERLANDS - PHOTOS OF UFOs

AMERSFOORT -- An extraordinary UFO sighting was reported on May
17, 2003, when multiple witnesses saw some strange flying
objects. A 36-year-old limousine driver, took some pictures with
his HP 620 digital camera. Around 13:45 he took notice of a
large weird shaped object in the sky with two smaller objects
beneath it. The smaller objects seemed to be under intelligent
control by the larger object in some way. The object appeared to
be round shaped and reasonably large. The distance between the
witness a objects were gray-black and didn't make any noise.
They moved at a variable speed, about 30 km/h average, at first
south, and then north. After ten minutes the UFOs disappeared
over the horizon.

The witness took three pictures of the strange flying objects
that showed twenty perfectly round orbs that were not noticed by
the witness during the sighting. Three orbs formed a triangular
formation. Experts were contacted and couldn't explain the
phenomena that was displayed. In Belgium last week, an erected
cross "standing" in the air was seen by 9 witnesses. Thanks to
Toine Trust Site http://www.UFOPlaza.nl. =D0utch UFO Disclosure "

DENMARK SHARP LIGHT FADES OUT

BJAEVERSKOV - The witness was walking his dog and saw a very
sharp white light that was a bit bigger than a big star on May
12, 2003. It was in a position almost mid way between the Moon
and "Karlsvognen" at 4:23 PM. I do not know the English name.
The light lasted about 5 to 10 seconds before it faded out
slowly and disappeared. It was not moving away. There was no
sound. I continued to look for ten minutes but it never came
back.

AZERBAIJAN - UFO SEEN BY HUNDREDS FOR TWO-HOURS

BAKU - Hundreds of Baku residents became the witnesses of a UFO
that buzzed above the city on Monday, May 19, 2003, from 5 to 7
PM, above various parts of the capital. The former city in the
USSR, saw in the cloudless sky a large light stain similar in
appearance to an extended "drop of milk." The object moved in a
complex trajectory, according to the Ekho newspaper. At 6:35 PM,
the "drop" suddenly started quickly to leave. The abnormal
object has caused interest not only by the people of Baku, but
also Azerbaijani experts. Professor Elchin Khalilov, chief of a
commission on the abnormal phenomena at presidium of Academy of
Sciences, videotaped the UFO and is studying the video.

He told to reporters. "It is already unequivocally clear, that
the fixed object is not the plane, helicopter or other flying
means. The UFO represents a slightly extended form and thus it
is abundantly clear, that it is an object of a technical
origin." The UFO hung at a height of five kilometers, and then
departed to the Caspian Sea. "Its estimated size exceeds ten
meters. The UFO was rather low above ground and had symmetric
elements on each side."

Experts in aviation, navigation, space, and astrophysics, are
investigating. Fuad Gasimov, chairman of Cosmic Seismological
Department of Azerbaijan National Aero cosmic Agency says, "The
appearance of UFOs is an alarm signal for people who destroy the
ecosystem of our planet". As Baku Today reported, UFO appeared
over Baku on January 2. Some scientists claim that UFOs were
also observed before and warned about natural disasters. Mr.
Gasimov stated, "UFOs hinder the prediction of earthquakes and
rese mankind to reveal their secret." He told journalists, "It
seems that UFO's will become "normal guests" for Baku
inhabitants soon."

HYBRID ULTRA LARGE AIRCRAFT R&D PROJECT

NAVAIR PATUXENT RIVER, MARYLAND - will be host to an industry
day conference June 5, to discuss new technologies in the area
of Hybrid Ultra Large Aircraft (HULA). This conference will be a
forum to inform interested companies and individuals of the
government's intent to explore hybrid aircraft technology for
various military missions, especially for Tran global heavy
lift. The envisioned product of this effort is a family of HULA
with a 30 to 1,000 ton payload capability, which can transport
outsized ca including operations from water. Hybrid aircraft are
lighter than air vehicles, which combine static lift from the
buoyancy of helium gas with aerodynamic lift derived from the
lifting body shape of the pressure envelope.

A feature that is vital to the perceived military utility of a
HULA is its ability to operate from unprepared surfaces and
without forward base support; it is not dependent upon access to
runways or seaports. The program plan entails beginning with the
design, construction, flight test and evaluation of relatively
small 500 pound payload models which will serve to create a data
base of information on aerodynamic and control characteristics
and yield insights into construction techniques and operational
asp envisioned larger vehicles. As many as four contractors will
be funded up to $2.5 million each to produce and demonstrate
their individual designs with first flight goals of one year
from contract award (to occur in FY-04). Additionally, the
selected participants will be expected to produce conceptual
pre-designs of 30 and 500 ton HULAs for which the data from
their model demonstrations has application. Thanks to the US
Navy.

EDITOR"S NOTE: Extremely large triangle shaped craft have been
seen flying low over the US and Europe for decades. Perhaps, the
Navy has decided to duplicate these craft.

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Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help your
buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me
at [ mailto:Majorstar@aol.com ]Majorstar@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to [ http://www.mufon.com/
]http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact [
mailto:MUFONHQ@aol.com ]MUFONHQ@aol.com or [ mailto:HQ@mufon.com
]HQ@mufon.com. Mention that I recommended you for membership.
"The MUFON Journal is now accepting qualified advertising,
please call 1 (303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to [
mailto:Majorstar@aol.com ]Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail
confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND
REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer
http://www.filer.unfranchise.com/

http://www.nationalufocenter.com/
NationalUFOCenter.com/










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   May > May 28

              A Review of Santiago Yturria's UFO Presentations

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:08:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:19:38 -0400
Subject: A Review of Santiago Yturria's UFO Presentations


A review of cases and information presented by Santiago Yturria:

1. Case #1 -According to Santiago Yturria, in 1994, Rolando
Quiroga was riding inside a bus traveling to Monterrey, N.L.when
he saw and photographed a "cigar shaped" object that appeared
over the horizon. Santiago indicates that Rolando took two
photographs in which you could also see the reflection of the
door and windows (from the other side of the bus) in the
photograph as well as the "cigar ufo" and a small object on the
upper right side of the cigar shaped object.

See Santiago's report and images at:

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/jan/mexico99/page2.htm

And some not so clear images (but spicy music) at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/3184/monclo.htm

Analysis:

When you compare the position of the alleged "cigar shaped" ufo
and smaller object to the reflections of the door and windows
(which are quite obvious) from one photograph to the other, you
can see that the alleged UFO (and object) remains in the same
position relative to the reflections from one photograph to the
next.

If you focus on the alleged "cigar ufo" as part of a horizontal
window sill or a bright reflection at the base of one of the
windows on the other side of the bus, you can see that it was,
in all probability, merely a reflection and not a UFO on the
distant horizon.  (Note that the shadow of the telephone pole in
the first photograph indicates the sun was on the other side of
the bus thus it would reflect brightly off any horizontal
surfaces on that side of the bus.)

See "Comparison of Ovni/UFO and reflections between two
consecutive photographs" at:

http://home.attbi.com/~yellowrose129/comparison_of_ovni.htm

2. Case #2 - Santiago Yturria Heron (?) describes a UFO video
taped in China on February 3, 1995 at:

http://dragoninvisible.com.ar/beijin.htm

I saw this same footage on a UFO documentary identified as an
internally lit balloon or blimp, by Dr. Bruce Maccabee - I do
believe.

3. Case #3 - The Case of Abby Parker - aka "Bambi"

http://www.rense.com/general30/havant.htm

- The first image appears to be a balloon (I know, I've video
taped many myself).

- The triangular shaped "UFO" of May 31, 2002, appears to be a
light source distorted by excess zoom, cropping and enlarging
(note the enlarged pixels). One would need to see the original
image to accurately determine if it was a UFO or something else.
A video still presented out of context is not evidence.

Note how the "triangle" seemingly fills the entire field of
vision. This is an example of increased magnification similar to
footage at:

http://www.iwasabducted.com/raulgarza/anniversary041400a.htm ,
"Video Part 3"

- The "twin UFO's" of June 9, 2002 are characteristic of lens
flare (see The IFO Database at: http://ifo.s5.com/ , "Lens
Flare", pages 2 and 3).

- The "boomerang" shaped UFO of April 12, 2002 (compared to the
Kenneth Arnold sighting of June, 1947) appears to be a light
source filmed with excessive zoom and further distorted by
enlarging and cropping the video frame (note the enlarged
pixels).

Pay close attention to the comments that follow Santiago's
presentation of Abby Parker's images and claims.

In one reply to Dave Cosnette's comments, Santiago tells Dave,
"By the way, your full name is Dave Cosnette, please use it to
help sustain the credibility of your criticisms." Yet, I found
Santiago listing his name on various presentations as, "Santiago
Yturria Garza", "Santiago Yturria" and even "Santiago Yturria
Heron". Perhaps Santiago needs to follow his own advice.

4. Case #4 - According to Santiago Yturria, on April 14, 1998 at
8:00 PM in Monterrey, Mexico, Raul Garza was photographing a
fire in the mountain known as The Sierra Madre Oriental (East
Sierra Madre) when "suddenly appeared the unexpected visitor".

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/jan/mexico99/#insolit

http://members.tripod.com/~A_U_R_A/ovni1999.html

Analysis:

The first two full photographs appear to have been taken at
night (note the lights in the city below) while the third full
photograph, and enlargement, appears to have been taken in the
day time (note the trees in the background at the base of the
mountain are visible while the trees and landscape are not so
visible in the previous two photographs). In addition, there do
not appear to be any city lights in the third full photograph
while the city lights are bright and clearly visible in the
first two photographs. No explanation is given for this
discrepancy.

The cigar shaped "visitor" appears too bright and too distinct
to have been over or near the mountains. It is possible the
cigar shaped image was caused by:

1) lens flare, similar to the so-called "Washington UFO's" -
  note the bright lights at the base of the mountain, see:

http://thevanguard.tripod.com/washingtonufo.htm,

2) lent or debris on the camera lens

3) emulsion defect

4) some other conventional explanation.

The photograph also taken by Raul Garza near the bottom of the
same page at :

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/jan/mexico99/#insolit

appears to be caused by:

1. Lens flare (note the bright lights reflected below and the
dome-shaped haze -similar to the "Washington UFO's" lens flares above)
2. Airplane lights photographed with the shutter open for an extended
period of time
3. Santa and his reindeer making late rounds

In fact, Raul Garza has been quite busy video taping every light source
he sees and calling it a "UFO":

http://www.iwasabducted.com/raulgarza/index.htm

A review of Mr. Garza's images reveal he even photographs contrails at
sunset and calls them UFO's:

http://www.iwasabducted.com/raulgarza/roberto090402.htm

I have video taped and photographed these types of contrails for years
but know
better than to call them "UFO's".

I would consider any photographic materials presented by Raul Garza
with a very large grain of salt.

5. Case #5

The Mount Popo "UFO's" promoted by Santiago Yturria:

http://www.etcontact.net/Other/Popocatepetl/Popo.htm

http://www.rense.com/general6/newufo.htm

http://www.rense.com/general8/pop.htm

http://www.rastreadornews.com/noticias/2001/03_2001/08_03_2001_13h25/08_03_2001_
13h25.htm

See the excellent study at:

http://www.iwasabducted.com/etnews/popo042402.htm

Since the live camera that records these images is located 10
miles from Mount Popo, all kinds of insects, birds and
conventional aircraft may be captured on video tape from time to
time. To call every dot, speck or blob found in images of the
air space between the live video camera (or any camera) and
Mount Popo UFO's is an incredible leap of logic and faith.

6. Case #6 - The Cardinas Family

http://rense.com/general7/texufo.htm

http://www.rense.com/general10/ovni.htm

Note the size of the alleged object in the video stills compared
to the date/time print. This indicates extreme magnification.
Also note, that the magnified images are then cropped and pasted
in the illustrations as if to represent the actual size and
detail of the object sighted. Seems to me the Cardinas family
saw and filmed an airplane coming at them head-on with its
headlights on and they mistook it for a UFO (I have watched this
effect hundreds of times while filming aircraft at night for the
IFO Database).

I also note that the images presented appear to be a light
source over-magnified to the point it appears "anomalous" (even
in the narration, one witness, Mrs. Cardinas, indicates the
camera was on zoom much of the time).

Santiago, did you even bother to have the footage analyzed by a
photographic expert? How about sending a copy of this footage to
Dr. Maccabee, if he has time, and let's hear what he has to say.
To take images out of context and present them as UFO's is not
only misleading, it's cheating.

A good example of extreme magnification:

http://www.iwasabducted.com/raulgarza/anniversary041400a.htm

Video Part 3


7. Case #7

Santiago Yturria's "Top Hat UFO"

http://www.rense.com/general3/tophat2.htm

Compare to images at: The IFO Database:

  http://ifo.s5.com/

"Birds", page 3, BVS66,
BVS67 and page 6, BVS93 and BVS94.

8. From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m02-005.shtml

"The final speaker of the day and of the conference was Mexican
researcher Santiago Yturria Garza who I thought was a great
guy!! His presentation was basically an hour-long movie of UFO
footage/pictures, which he cleverly narrated over. The footage
included classic Mexican footage of swarms of UFOs including
some spheres, but the most interesting was that of "humanoids"
in the air. The footage wasn't 100% clear but you could easily
make out these strange humanoid figures just "floating" in the
sky. I won't say anymore about it because I have my doubts about
its authenticity and I don't want to comment on it!!"

"Humanoids in the air"?

9. UFO Images promoted by Santiago?

http://ufojapan.net/news/newsdata/news980123.html

Note the various images of alleged UFOs Santiago seems to
promote in his video. Anyone see what he is doing?

It appears you will promote just about anything, investigate
little and haven't the slightest clue about conducting research,
Santiago. I'm sorry but your track record in reference to UFO's
just isn't that great.

Sincerely,

A. Hebert








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 28

                Re: Alien Abductions The Real Deal? - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:12:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:22:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abductions The Real Deal? - Bueche


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:13:33 -0300
 >Subject: Alien Abductions The Real Deal?

 >Source: Psychology Today

 >http://www.psychologytoday.com/htdocs/prod/PTOArticle/PTO-20030527-000002.asp

 >By Kaja Perina <mailto:kaja@psychologytoday.com>
 >Publication Date: Mar/Apr 2003

 >Summary: Are alien abductions a misunderstood sleep phenomenon,
 >or apocalyptic warnings? The answer depends on which
 >constellation you work for at Harvard.

<snip>

I think I speak for everyone on the planet (well, not quite)
when I say that we hoped that Psychology Today article would not
have been given any exposure on this List, or anywhere.

But since you raised it, I am enclosing the letter which I'd
sent to the writer after the article originally appeared on
news stands earlier this year. As she never replied to my
criticism, nor to a more serious complaint from another person
cited in the article, I figure I may as well air this letter in
public since I feel my criticisms are valid.

Though I'd generally suggest that people treat the article for
what it is - a poorly written piece in a magazine past its prime
- and leave it at that. By the way, most abhorrent to me was
discovering that my complaints could go no where, for not only
was Ms. Perina the writer of this piece, she is also the editor
(which also explains how such poor writing could make it onto
the pages of the magazine).

My letter from March follows. You'll notice I was as kind as
possible in arguing my points, since my hope was that she'd
appreciate the criticism:


Subject: Reaction to article (March/April issue)

(This letter is not intended for publication in Psychology
Today; it is just a letter from one of the people interviewed to
the writer of the peice)

Dear Ms. Perina,

I've read your article ("Cracking the Harvard X-Files") and am
satisfied that you included references to William James, which
acknowledged the rift between material science and experiential
evidence, or the spiritual side of life. This was by no means
presented in balance with the pages upon pages, about McNally's
study, but it was present, at least in token fashion, so that is
appreciated. Naturally I did not expect that a magazine titled
Psychology Today would enter into a philosophical discussion
(leave that to Philosophy Today, if there is such a publication,
I suppose!).

I'd have liked you to have mentioned what Mack's "multifaceted"
theory was, rather than refer to it only as a theory which
McNally and Clancy find "hilarious;" one can assume from various
points in the article that Mack's theory has something to do
with "altered states of consciousness," and given the William
James reference, probably something to do with "spirit," and
indeed Mack's last line in the article, which is quite nice by
the way, "We're in different firmaments," does indeed give some
hint as to what Mack's perspective is. But please help me if I
am mistaken, but you seemed to have omitted actually saying what
Mack's theory was.

(Similarly you say that Mack encourages an "abandonment" of the
physical sciences in his approach, yet you omit mentioning why
he came to that perspective).

Aside from that omission I have only one criticism about the
article:

It is simply that it is disheartening to see the tendency, which
you are not alone in enacting, of resorting to cynicism to infer
disagreement. My criticism is that these negative tendencies
slipped into your writing.

Lines written with a cynical edge -- such as "[Mack is a]
paranormal philosopher king" or "Abductees...cling to him like
acolytes, often parroting his theories," (an absurd remark,
considering that Mack's theories are simply rephrasings of what
experiencers have related to him, not the other way around), or
"[explanations] have proliferated apace with blockbuster movies
about aliens" (an editorial comment which cynically implies a
relationship, yet has no reference, nor bears up to examination
considering that people do not report the types of aliens shown
in movies) -- are ever-present in the piece.

Similarly, beyond word choice, looking at the construction of
the piece, your choice to lead Peter's experiences as being
"chips implanted in his anus," rather than leading with his
remark in which he conveys what he felt was important about his
experience, speaks to this edge of cynicism which crept into
your writing.* You also described alien encounters as "[beings]
hovering over their beds," implying, I suppose, that these are
hypnogogic hallucinations -- since most readers would assume
that by "hovering," you meant "floating," not "standing around."
These subtle tilts of the truth likely came from McNally who
reinterprets the descriptions to more closely match his theory
about hypnogogic hallucination, but you adopted them into the
reporter's voice.

I'm afraid that writing a balanced piece involves more than
ensuring that a reference to William James provides a nod to the
spiritual dimensions. Ideally, these two sides of the discussion
are engaged by the writer, boldly, without resorting to tints of
cynicism. It seems you tried to cast Eugene Taylor as the voice
in balance between the two sides, but ideally, wouldn't that
responsibility have been yours as well?

Apparently not. But aside from the cynical tint, thanks for
writing the article; it is, at the most, a testament to the
enduring divide between different philosophies.

Sincerely,


Will Bueche



CC: Psychology Today exec. Editor

-----

*Note for List: Since sending this letter, I received word from
Peter that he had made any statement to that effect to this
reporter; he was not interviewed. Nor has he ever made such a
statement in any of Dr. Mack's books, nor in the copy of the
documentary which Ms. Perina viewed. Ms. Perina apparently
invented that passage on her own; she did not respond to either
my or Peter's letter to explain where she came up with it. At
best, she may have heard this from McNally, but even if so, it
is not true. Simply put, the offensive statement was not even
fact checked by Ms Perina, and when called on the inaccuracy,
she did not have the courtesy to reply.







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   May > May 28

                       Re: Abydos Helicopter - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:31:33 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:37:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter - Ledger


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:12:14 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:46:11 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter
 >
 >>>From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
 >>>Subject: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
 >>>appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
 >>>solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
 >>>Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
 >>>fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

 >>>http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

 >>A helicopter on the temple at Abydos? Put there by whom? United
 >>Technologies, Inc. Or maybe it was the Greeks who put it up
 >>there and their secret writings were stolen by Da Vinci and
 >>later by Sikorsky.

 >Jan & List,
 >Try this link:
 >http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
 >Ed

Hi Ed,

What do Egyptologists say these symbols translate out to?


Don Ledger






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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:35:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:39:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Groff


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:55:26 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:04:34 -0500
 >>>Subject: Rods Exposed

 >>>Dear Errol and List Subscribers:

 >>>I have posted my latest experiments in reference to the so-
 >>>called "Rods" phenomenon at:

 >>>http://home.attbi.com/~ifo_database/rods1.htm

 >><snip>

 >>Fantastic work, Amy. This is an excellent example of so-called
 >>"rods", and is open to relatively easy replication under the
 >>right conditions.

 >>It will be interesting to see the response, if any, from such
 >>characters as Jose Escamilla, et al. Mr. Escamilla seemed very
 >>reluctant to correspond with me when I emailed him with some
 >>'awkward' questions last year.

 >Sorry Amy, Dan and List but they don't look anything like Rods
 >to me. Nice try though and hats off to you.

 >Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >col

Sorry Col but this attempt at debunking the debunker has failed.
Just what is this photo supposed to depict? I see a red circle
around an indistinct dark patch, nothing near the clarity and
voracity of Amy's pictures. You will have to do much better than
this.

Amy's pics look like every Rod I've ever seen and your pic looks
nothing like them.


Terry







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                     Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:48:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:43:51 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Ledger


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>To: UFO
 >UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100 Subject:
 >Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>To: UFO UpDates -
 >>Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>Date: Fri, 23 May
 >>2003 01:03:14 -0700 Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>To: UFO
 >>>UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>Date:
 >>>Thu, 22 May 2003 10:04:52 -0400 Subject: Re: CI: Martian
 >>>'Cactus'?

 ><snip>

 >>>They may look like same dunes, but the 'dunes' are really
 >>>Martian polar ice accumulations. I'm not sure whether
 >>>they are carbon dioxide or water ice, but they are ice of
 >>>some type, so I'd expect the darker 'cactus-like growths'
 >>>atop them to possibly be wind-exposed crystalline growths
 >>>of material that froze into crystal at it rose (in a less
 >>>solid form) up through fissures from a warmer environment
 >>>beneath the ice cap. The wind-blown ice 'frost' would
 >>>then tend to accumulate around them just as the white
 >>>sands of Padre Island accumulate along old fence lines,
 >>>making it look as though the old fence posts grew out the
 >>>tops of dunes.

 >>I've gotten nothing but run-around trying to get some
 >>interpretation of the images.

 >>Peeling back the USGS URL got me here:

 >>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/

 >>... where I read at bottom"

 >>"For comments or questions regarding images represented on
 >>these pages and image processing considerations, please
 >>contact Annie Bennett. "

 >>I clicked on that and got an email address. Here is Annie's
 >>response:

 >>The development team for this web site are not scientist.
 >>We can only assist in questions pertaining to design and
 >>development of the web site. Please direct scientific
 >>questions to:

 >>ktanaka@usgs.gov OR geosci@wunder.wustl.edu

 >>Annie Bennett U.S. Geological Survey 2255 North Gemini
 >>Drive Flagstaff, Arizona 86001 TEL: 928-556-7210 EMAIL:

 >The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >from:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size.
 >I indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a
 >tunnel leading into the area at:

 >http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

 >(a 283 Kb gif file extracted from the above ida image). There
 >is also some evidence that said rover is affecting the dark
 >upstand type things near it.


Hi all,

Has this photograph been authenticated? I've been away and lost
track of this thread. If this is a bonifide transmission that
hasn't been played with, then this is a pretty startling
artifact.

Don Ledger











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                    Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:16:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:24:23 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stanford


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >from:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size. I
 >indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a tunnel
 >leading into the area at:

 >http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

 >(a 283 Kb gif file extracted from the above ida image). There is
 >also some evidence that said rover is affecting the dark upstand
 >type things near it.

 >Very interesting


You're letting your imagination run away (far away!) with you
again, Colin!

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                        Cape Town Residents Spot UFO

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:57:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:52:06 -0400
Subject: Cape Town Residents Spot UFO


Source: News24 - Africa

http://www.news24.com/News24/Technology/News/0,,2-13-1443_1365535,00.html

28/05/2003 23:46

Cape Town - Is it a star or is it an unidentified flying object?

People living in the Boland were asking this question on Tuesday
after observing an unusual light phenomenon in the Worcester
area. Many people phoned regional radio stations with the news
that they had seen a UFO.

Nic Marais, breakfast show DJ on Kfm 94.5, told Die Burger that
a Cape Town salesman phoned him at about 06:45 to report the
incident, followed by similar calls, confirming the sighting.

A man named Deon was travelling on the N1 towards Worcester and
phoned to say he saw a cigar-shaped UFO right below the moon.

It was apparently gliding above the clouds with a smaller but
very bright light alongside. He said he had been looking at the
lights for quite a while and it was most definitely not an
aircraft.

According to Marais other listeners had also seen the unusual
light, but thought it was a star. One said the large light was
the morning star and the other light what remained of the
previous evening's stars.

Cristo Louw, 28, founder of the UFO aid organisation, Saufor,
says no-one had informed them of the unusual light above
Worcester.

Officials of Cape Town's air and navigational services say
nothing unusual was reported on Tuesday morning.

Spokesperson for the Worcester police, Susan Beneke, says they
haven't been informed of the incident either.









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                     Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:02:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:34 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Kaeser


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >Hello Mac, Larry, Ray and List

 >The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >from:

 >http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size. I
 >indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a tunnel
 >leading into the area at:

 >http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

It's very difficult to judge the size of anything in these
images. The ice (?) dunes could be 100 feet (or more) high,
which would make the alleged rover massive as well, not to
mention the "tunnel" formation.  In addition, since the "rover"
wouldn't have been placed where it's seen, I would expect to see
tracks.  When one scrolls to the bottom of the image it appears
that the terrain becomes much more plain and looks like it was
an image that was taken from a great distance away, so I suspect
the so-called cactus formations are very large (whatever they
are).

My 2-cents.


Steve








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                   Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:32:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:48:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash - Gehrman


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:10:19 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Alleged Russian UFO Crash

 >Like Stan said, the AA film was a none starter, for anyone with
 >half a brain. What are we going back now about 6 years?

Don,

The original release was in 1995.

The following is a one hour question and answer conference,real
time with Ray Santilli fielding questions being asked by just
plain folks, all on line. It took place June 26, 1995. As far as
I know, his story has never changed from this first raw and
honest discourse, and I think this is still the truth as he
knows it.

How did you get the film?

We came across a freelance cameraman of the 50's during research
for a music project, two years ago. The film has been
authenticated in writing by two separate offices of Kodak. The
most important aspect of this is that Kodak (in writing) have
stated that apart from the date of the safety print film which
is 27, 47, or 67, the original negative was also 27, 47, or 67.
Thereafter codes changed. Negative film stock is only usable for
around three to four years. Next week a collection of your
senators will see it. I myself have never seen a UFO.

What condition was the film in when you received it?

50 year old film is difficult to preserve and will deteriorate.
For the greater part the footage was in dreadful condition.
Unfortunately some parts were so corroded, we could only rely
upon digital enhancement to retrieve the image.

The film stock was NOT numbered at that time; only codes
were used.

There are a number of reasons for the film's condition, the
primary one being the passage of time and poor storage. And no I
don't know where the Aliens came from.

How can you verify that the film is real?

The film has been authenticated apart from Kodak. We have
brought in five medical experts from London, Paris and Rome.
They have all confirmed that the creatures are real and not
possibly human. In addition we brought in leading film special
effects companies and model makers to determine whether or not
the technology existed around the Kodak dates to hoax the
footage. They all answered, NO! There are no zoom shots in the
film.

Who was Volker Spielberg?

We did not have the right amount of money. He helped us out.

What is the cameraman's time line for The Roswell Incident?

He was first informed on June 1, 1947. He says that they thought
they had the entire area cleaned up only to discover as a result
of the information coming out of Roswell in July that they had
missed an area. It seems as with any aviation crash the debris
was scattered and some was found by Brazel.

How could a cameraman make film footage like this that is then
overlooked by heavy military security?

Once the filming and cleanup was over there were hundreds of
canisters of film. The first shipment was sent on to McMullan in
Washington. The second was missed as Washington assumed the
material was sent. We got the second shipment. There is only one
type of Alien shown in the film. The typical reaction of those
that have seen the film is that it is real. But we know that the
film comes from Roswell and that the creatures are real, not
human. You will have to see the medical reports.

We will know the military's position next week.
It is heating up.

Has the cameraman been interviewed?

The cameraman's identity is protected for now. Should he wish to
come out into the open, that is another matter. I know that many
of you think his reasons for keeping quiet are not sound but you
are forgetting that this man is in his 80's. His view of life is
very different from yours and mine. He just doesn't want the
hassle and the trouble this would bring.

Where was the crash site?

The cameraman was flown into Roswell and then driven for a few
hours to the crash site which was close to a Mescalero
Reservation, near White Sands.

Can we see the alien's brain in the film?

Yes you can. The camera did not have a zoom. Every time a
closeup was needed, the cameraman had to move in. He had to put
on the same Bio-Hazard outfits as the doctors. It meant that the
camera was not easy to operate, however the shots are all quite
good. The mail order footage will be raw and not digitally
enhanced.

Have you shown this film to religious leaders?

Yes, we covered all faiths. The reaction was very bad.
Most walked out.

 >There
 >were so many obvious gaffs in the film and the fact that
 >Santilli wouldn't come out on the film. The lack of the 4th
 >wall, the grainy film, out of focus for the close ups as some of
 >the obvious reasons.

Maybe you need a refreasher course in the AA.

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/aaindex.html

At this site you'll see that thirty UFO researchers
examined the uncut digital version of the AA.

All were asked to write opinions and make a judgment whether the
AA was a fraud, a real event, or whether they were undecided.
Only eleven thought the AA a fraud.

The remainder were undecided or thought the AA legitimate.

It seems to me that the question is still open. Why not give the
AA CD version a look and see if some of your previous objections
might have been a bit premature?

The quality of the footage is much better than the Fox version.


Ed








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                   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:38:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:57:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Velez


 >From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:37:59 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >>From: Victor Viggiani <victor@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 27 May 2003 08:22:23 -0400
 >>Subject: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

Hello Victor, Stephen, All,

Victor wrote/proposes:

 >>Disclosure Dialogue
 >>Vol I Edition 1
 >>May 2003

 >>Introduction:

 >>Based on the overwhelming mass of evidential material both
 >>within the UFO research community as well as within the
 >>sequestered data residing in government archives, Disclosure of
 >>an Extraterrestrial presence on planet Earth has become the
 >>ultimate Terrestrial Imperative for the human race as we
 >>discover ourselves, the universe and those who share it with us.

<snip>

That is why the International Petition to the members of the
United Nations was created. There are already several countries
that have chosen to disclose all UFO related information to the
public, press, and interested groups and individuals.

It is not unreasonable or 'mission impossible' to expect to add
a few more countries to the list of those who have already
chosen to be open on the topic of UFOs. There appears to be only
one major obstacle to realizing the goal and that is, - public
apathy!

Many people talk a good game. "I support this, and I support
that" they say. But, when push comes to shove and it's time to
actually _do_ something, to get down and _work_, they are
nowhere to be found.

Just look at the non-existent response you have received to your
noble and worthy proposal on this List as an example. The only
one who took the time to respond was Stephen Bassett. Whom you
mentioned by name in your original.

My friend, I'm afraid that you are going to have to work really
hard and make a strong personal determination and commitment to
UFO info disclosure (which you have done) if you are going to
garner the kind of public support that is needed to materialize
it in the real world. Look at me with the petition... if I
didn't post about it regularly and if EBK didn't give it a plug
on the program from time to time, we wouldn't have any/many
signatures at all. You'd think that people would become excited
and show some enthusiasm towards realizing such a goal. But
nooooo, it's actually a lot more like pulling teeth than it is
like a Mickey Rooney/Judy Garland movie where they simply make a
suggestion, "Hey kids, let's put on a show!" and all the kids
spontaneously and enthusiastically pitch in to put on a 'big
show' for the whole town.

In the real world you have to win people over - one at a time.

Stephen Bassett wrote:

 >He raises the key questions at the heart of the "disclosure
 >process."

Yes, he does. And I will support him in his efforts in any way
that I can. In the past I have expressed my dissension about how
Greer mismanaged/sabotaged the only formal disclosure effort
here in the US to date - arbitrarily grafting the issues of
space based weapons and free energy onto the UFO agenda at the
eleventh hour.

More recently I have expressed my righteous indignation toward
Stephen Bassett, the only UFO lobbyist in Washington DC, as he
proposes to misdirect his energy and valuable resources with
what I am convinced is an ill-conceived campaign to raise a
quarter million dollars to squander on _mock_ hearings.

Money that could be spent/directed toward securing the real
thing - genuine congressional hearings. Open and honest
criticism such as I have expressed in the past is viewed by some
as, in-house back biting or nasty negativism. I consider it my
right and my responsibility to speak out against things I
believe to be obstacles to achieving of the real goal of
attaining complete disclosure on the issue of UFOs. But that's a
whole other issue.

I have become quite disillusioned with all the preceding efforts
(thus far,) myself. I hope that Victor can successfully launch
an effort that can rouse enthusiastic and international public
support. To that end, I publicly pledge my own support to him in
any way needed to help advance the cause of attaining UFO
information disclosure.

Victor... my Sword is yours to command. ;)

Warm regards, best of luck in all your efforts,


John Velez,
Webmaster A.I.C./U.N. Petition co-ordinator








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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:05:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


Ian Rogers








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                        Cox: Pilot's Book Causes Stir

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:00:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:00:41 -0400
Subject: Cox: Pilot's Book Causes Stir



Source: Florida Today

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/columnstoryA53115A.htm

May 20, 5:57 PM


Pilot's Book Causes Stir

By Billy Cox


The periscope inside the museum that the blockhouse at Pad 14
has become works like a prop from a submarine movie. But
swimming into view during the two-handled, 360-degree swivel
comes some unexpected symbolism. The massive firing rooms that
once ignited America's earliest space shots hump out of
Canaveral Air Force Station's dense scrubby wilderness like
cement anthills. A flashback to the spectral pyramids of the
Yucatan passes quickly.

On this white-hot Sunday morning, history is re-materializing
around a dismantled gateway to the cosmos. Official history,
that is. Meaning that certain subjects are simply not talked
about. Even if the pioneer initiates the discussion.

Forty years ago, Gordon Cooper strapped himself into a Mercury
capsule named Faith 7, then rode a pillar of fire into "Right
Stuff" legend aboard an Atlas rocket. Today, the supporting cast
has reunited, dozens strong, perhaps for the last time, beneath
a tent within a stone's throw of Pad 14. With admiration, Lt.
Col. Thomas Eye of the 45th Space Wing at Patrick Air Force Base
revisit's Cooper's claims to immortality:

The Faith 7 mission logged more than 34 hours, more than the
five previous Mercury astronauts combined. Two years later,
Cooper became the first pilot chosen for a second orbital
flight, in the Gemini sequence. The "trailblazer" was on the
cutting edge of a communications revolution when, in orbit, he
chatted with Mercury colleague Scott Carpenter, 205 feet beneath
the California waves in Sealab II. It is an impressive tribute.

Access to Cooper is a traffic jam. They want to shake hands, to
chat, to get autographs. But no one submits a copy of his
controversial autobiography, published in 2000. In fact, a spot
check of half a dozen old-timers fails to find anyone who's read
it, although they've heard the buzz. There are chuckles, puzzled
brows.

"I don't believe there's anything such as UFOs," offers Cal
Fowler, former Atlas launch director and longtime acquaintance
of Cooper. "They've never landed, anyway. Maybe they came and
left after they didn't find anything here to exploit."

Cooper's memoir, "Leap of Faith: An Astronaut's Journey Into the
Unknown," takes a fearless, if not downright exuberant, plunge
into the taboo waters of unidentified flying objects. Although
"Leap of Faith" scuttles enduring urban legends contending he
and other early astronauts observed UFOs in orbit, the retired
Air Force colonel is convinced of their existence and calls for
official dialogues and government transparency. In 1978, he
lobbied unsuccessfully for the United Nations to play a leading
role in future studies.

Not only does Cooper elaborate on his 1951 sightings of metallic
discs while serving with a jet fighter squadron in West Germany,
he details his role in a UFO landing at Edwards Air Force Base
in 1957. The latter, he says, was photographed by two military
photographers, with stills and 35 mm footage. Before dispatching
the images to the Pentagon, from which they never re-emerged,
Cooper got a look at the negatives and reports the object was a
"classic saucer" extruding tripod landing gear before it took
off.

UFO skeptics such as Jim Oberg of Houston have teed off on "Leap
of Faith." He can find no Air Force colleagues to verify
Cooper's West German encounters. Advocates such as Stanton
Friedman of Canada credit Cooper for being "gutsy" but lament
his association with one of the UFO contactees, whom Friedman
calls "a phony."

Surrounded by impatient co-workers, none of them addressing the
autobiographical indelicacies, Cooper manages to find a few
moments. He looks frail, but his mind is calculating. He blows
off his critics with a shrug.

"UFOs, assuming they're real, are not going to show us what
they've got until they're ready to show us," the old astronaut
says. "Until then, we're not going to force it."

Liberated by history to speak his mind, the enigma is escorted
into the air-conditioned bunker, where they will talk of other
things.


Billy Cox's column runs every Wednesday. He can be reached at
242-3774, or at Florida Today, P.O. Box 419000, Melbourne, FL
32941-9000.






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                       Re: Abydos Helicopter - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:30:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:19:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter - Gehrman


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:31:33 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:12:14 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:46:11 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>>From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
 >>>>Subject: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>>You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
 >>>>appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
 >>>>solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
 >>>>Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
 >>>>fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

 >>>>http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

 >>>A helicopter on the temple at Abydos? Put there by whom? United
 >>>Technologies, Inc. Or maybe it was the Greeks who put it up
 >>>there and their secret writings were stolen by Da Vinci and
 >>>later by Sikorsky.

 >>Try this link:

 >>http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html


 >What do Egyptologists say these symbols translate out to?

Hi Don,

That's what Jiri was trying to explain at:

http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

I visited this site and found it up and running although it
takes a while to load. Jiri's arguments are interesting and
shouldn't be brushed off.


Ed







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                  Re: Filer's Files #22 -- 2003 - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:34:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:21:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #22 -- 2003 - Balaskas


 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:32:38 -0400
 >Subject: Filer's Files #22 -- 2003

<snip>

 >We're moving closer to Mars each day for the closest approach in
 >decades, and 2003 is the best year to visit Mars in the next two
 >decades. Earth and Mars are around 93 million miles apart on the
 >same side of the Sun.

<snip>

Hi George!

I wish to clarify for UFO UpDates readers what George Filer
wrote in the statement above.

The Earth orbits the Sun at an average distance of about 93
million miles. Mars orbits the Sun at an average distance of
about 142 million miles. When Earth and Mars are on the same
side of the Sun, they are separated by an average distance of
about 142 - 93 = 49 million miles.

In late August of this year, Earth and Mars will again be on the
same side of the Sun but this time the distance between the two
planets will be at the minimum possible separation of about 34
million miles. This is the smallest separation between Earth and
Mars in many thousands of years and it won't be bettered until
the year 2287 when we will be just 43,500 miles closer.

Even if Martian spaceships don't get great gas mileage and their
fuel is not much cheaper than ours, our Martian neighbours may
still be tempted to visit us on Earth this August since they
won't have as far to fly this time.


Nick Balaskas







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                  Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Bassett

From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:59:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:23:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Bassett


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:38:43 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >>From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:37:59 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >>>From: Victor Viggiani <victor@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>>
 >>>Date: Mon, 27 May 2003 08:22:23 -0400
 >>>Subject: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >Hello Victor, Stephen, All,

 >Victor wrote/proposes:

 >>>Disclosure Dialogue
 >>>Vol I Edition 1
 >>>May 2003

 >>>Introduction:

 >>>Based on the overwhelming mass of evidential material both
 >>>within the UFO research community as well as within the
 >>>sequestered data residing in government archives, Disclosure of
 >>>an Extraterrestrial presence on planet Earth has become the
 >>>ultimate Terrestrial Imperative for the human race as we
 >>>discover ourselves, the universe and those who share it with us.

<snip>

 >That is why the International Petition to the members of the
 >United Nations was created. There are already several countries
 >that have chosen to disclose all UFO related information to the
 >public, press, and interested groups and individuals.

<snip>

 >John Velez


Having written previously that John Velez's International
Petition is a great idea well executed, I am ashamed to note I
had not put links up on my sites to the petition. Duh. That
mistake has now been corrected at:

www.paradigmclock.com/top.html
www.x-ppac.org/breaking developments.html


Regards,

Steve Bassett








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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:08:23 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:29:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Ledger


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>Now prove ET's are fakes

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this
is an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


Gotta go with Ian on this. You can see faces in anything if you
concentrate for a few minutes. There's a mossy face on the side
of a tree outside my window. When I eat breakfast this 'face',
conjured up by my mind, now sees the damn thing everytime I
look.


Don Ledger









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                   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:36:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:31:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Kaeser


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:38:43 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

<snip>

 >More recently I have expressed my righteous indignation toward
 >Stephen Bassett, the only UFO lobbyist in Washington DC, as he
 >proposes to misdirect his energy and valuable resources with
 >what I am convinced is an ill-conceived campaign to raise a
 >quarter million dollars to squander on _mock_ hearings.

 >Money that could be spent/directed toward securing the real
 >thing - genuine congressional hearings. Open and honest
 >criticism such as I have expressed in the past is viewed by some
 >as, in-house back biting or nasty negativism. I consider it my
 >right and my responsibility to speak out against things I
 >believe to be obstacles to achieving of the real goal of
 >attaining complete disclosure on the issue of UFOs. But that's a
 >whole other issue.

Hi John,

May I ask what type of hearings you would want Congress to
schedule? Since the Government isn't about to hold a general
hearing into annecdotal allegations, I'm not sure how you're
going to focus their attention. Congressional hearings would
require that any witnesses be vetted and their stories
completely checked out before they testify. It would also
require some sort of a Congressional sponsor, who could perhaps
be convinced of its necessity by a petition by the general
public. Of course, I suspect more than a million signatures
would be needed to even get congressional attention. On the
other hand, you'd probably attract the press long before that as
they re-examine the "kook" factor in all of this.

Having worked as a news reporter, not to mention my having
worked at the U.S. House for 18 years, I have found that while
there is limited interest on the part of many staffers in this
subject, there are far to many pressing issues to take up their
time.

I'd also like to believe that Congressional hearings could help
in this quest for truth, but I suspect that it will take a major
"flap" to re-ignite interest by the general public and as a
result their Representatives.

 >I have become quite disillusioned with all the preceding efforts
 >(thus far,) myself. I hope that Victor can successfully launch
 >an effort that can rouse enthusiastic and international public
 >support. To that end, I publicly pledge my own support to him in
 >any way needed to help advance the cause of attaining UFO
 >information disclosure.

Given the past 50+ years of research you have every reason to be
disillusioned. The efforts on the part of the Air Force to limit
public concern (and ridicule research into UFOs) was very
successful. IMO, the grassroots effort to revive public interest
is a difficult (if not impossible) challange. Again, a major
'flap' would help.


Steve







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                           Re: Rods Exposed - Ball

From: Christopher Ball <christopher.ball@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:53:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:38:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Ball


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


I just had a chance to look at this photo. I have to be honest
and say I can't see anything. Actually I have been staring at it
for a awhile and I still don't see anything.

This is my first post to the List and I come to it as an
absolute outsider - so to speak - one of the general public who
really knows little about ufology.

I would have to agree with Ian's statement above. Why is the
onus on Ian and the general non-UFO community to prove that UFOs
and aliens aren't real? Is it not usually the other way around
when it comes to things of this nature?

You provide me with solid evidence, evidence that I can see on
all the major news organizations around the world and then I
will believe. And the reality is I am in the majority who feel
that way. So really, the onus is on the UFO community for proof,
not on the general public to disprove.


Chris Ball








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                   Status Update On FOIA Request 3/21/03?

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:45:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:41:30 -0400
Subject: Status Update On FOIA Request 3/21/03?


TO:   Maj. Gen. Harold Mashburn, Jr., USMC
       Commandant, Industrial College of the Armed Forces
       National Defense University
       Fort Lesley J. McNair
       Washington, DC 20319

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
       3518 Martha Custis Drive
       Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: May 28, 2003

By e-mail back on April 14, 2003, your judge advocate Lt.
Commander W. Scott Laragy asked me to call him so as to specify
the timeframe within which he should conduct his records search
in response to my March 21, 2003, FOIA request for access to all
ICAF/NDU-generated and all ICAF/NDU-received records pertaining
to your institution's recent controversy over restricting
"academic freedom" of political dissent amongst its faculty and
staff (see the related Washington Post "In the Loop" column for
March 14, 2003).

On April 16, I did phone Commander Laragy to discuss this phase
of processing; then, on that day, I e-mailed to him the
timeframe acceptable to me (Dec. 1, 2002 -- April 16, 2003).

Since then, I've heard nothing more from him, you, or any other
DOD official as to the fate of my request. Does this silence
mean that (1) you've decided to deny all or part of my request;
or (2) you've chosen a course of malign neglect in hopes that
I'll tire of the delayed processing and give up my quest for the
subject records? If so, please understand that your continued
silence will leave me no recourse but to file a formal, written
appeal to contest this adverse action.

Coming as it does from an institution that professes to protect
and uphold the very democratic principles embodied in the U. S.
Freedom of Information Act, your inordinate delay serves not
only to disappoint me but also to raise a red flag about your
true motives as regards compliance/non-compliance with the Act.

The ICAF/NDU faculty, staff, and studentry deserve better
management than this, and I hereby ask that you provide it.


LARRY W. BRYANT

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

Chairman, Subcommittee on Government Information, Management, and
Technology - U. S. House of Representatives

Chairman, U. S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary

Chairman, U. S. Senate Committee on Government Affairs









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                  Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:45:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Maccabee


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:10:19 -0300
 >Subject: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack


 >Source: SciFi.com - Chat Room

 >http://prod.scifi.com/transcripts/2002/drjmack1023.html

 >Interview with Dr. John E.Mack

 >Oct. 23, 2002

 >SCIFIMOD: Hi everyone, thanks for joining us here. I'm Ben
 >Trumble for SCIFI. Tonight we're pleased to welcome Dr.John E.
 >Mack. Dr. John Mack is a professor of psychiatry at Harvard
 >Medical School and a leading authority on the transformative and
 >spiritual aspects of alien encounters.

 >SCIFIMOD: Dr. Mack is the author of Passport to the Cosmos:
 >Human Transformation and Alien Encounters, the 1994 bestseller
 >Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens, and a Pulitzer prizing
 >winning biography of the Briitish adventurer and soldier T. E.
 >Lawrence.


 >SCIFIMOD: Do you have an opinion on where aliens come from?

 >JohnMack: The first task in addressing that question is moving
 >away from literal thinking

 >JohnMack: This star or that star

 >JohnMack: They may come from another dimension

 >JohnMack: One shaman asked them where they're from

 >JohnMack: and they answered Nowhere and Everywhere

 >JohnMack: They might come from a star system

 >JohnMack: Who knows

BIG SNIP

 >JohnMack: The more you investigate all this

 >JohnMack: The more you must insist on scientific evidence

 >JohnMack: But when you opproach all this through science it
 >becomes evasive

 >JohnMack: That may be the wrong methodology

 >JohnMack: That's why I've looked at the profound experience that
 >stands in its own light

 >JohnMack: Whether the alines are concrete or spirit beings that
 >appear in our space

 >JohnMack: If there are 100's of thousands of encounters why
 >don't we see more actual objects

 >JohnMack: I tend to downplay the literal experience for the
 >mystical

This interview from last fall shows why the recent article in
Psychology Today can 'get away' with emphasizing the "its all
mental" explanation offered by researchers. Mack himself says
UFO abductions are not physically provable events. Ergo they
must be mental.

Mack's big problem, as I see it, is shunning the testimonial and
physical evidence that abounds, namely 'plain vanilla' sightings
of UFOs or 'Alien Flying Craft' (AFC) which demonstrate that
'other intelligences' (OI) are flying around and interacting
with the Earth and its populace.

Over ten years ago I was Mack's roomate during the first TREAT
conference on UFOs and abductions. This was after Budd had
introduced him to the topic but before he was convinced of its
objective (or subjective) reality and several years before his
first book. I tried to get him interested in the physics aspects
of the sightings and presented at that conference a paper
devoted to the physical aspects of sightings to show that (a)
AFCs were (very probably) real and (b) assuming the OIs are
real, they could be abducting humans (for their own reasons
which we can only speculate about). However, Mack apparently was
not impressed with the physical evidence. So, being a
"mentalist" himself, has chosen to go "naked" into the world of
psychology, without the protective arraignment of "objective
evidence" (sightings, photos, radar, etc.). He therefore has to
suffer the slings and arrows of the skeptics who would have him
place this all into, effectively, altered or "imaginary" states
of conciousness.

In other words, in the skeptical point of view, all the
abduction stories MUST be mentally generated because there are
no OIs (aliens) around to abduct people. Since the psychos...
ooops... psychologists are, themselves, unaware of the plain
vanilla, "real", sightings, and since Mack hasn't really alerted
them to this portion of UFO reality (Mack has avoided citing
objective evidence in his books and papers and has said,
instead, that there may never be physical proof), it is not
surprising that they simply dismiss him as "Wacko Macko"
(expression in the Boston Globe newspaper).

I was one of the people who, about 8 years ago, was asked to
provide support for Mack's position when he was under the
Harvard gun for being so public about his abduction research. I
compiled a briefing package which cited numerous well documented
cases in order to demonstrate that the idea "UFOs are real" had
to be considered seriously when analyzing abduction cases.
However, I presume that none of the Harvard inquisitors saw it.








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                         Re: Rods Exposed - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:48:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Maccabee


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

<snip>

 >Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

You missed some other 'faces' in the hedgerow next to the
street. With proper 'interpretation' one can find aliens just
about anywhere. (One researcher was able to find faces of many
bigfoots - or bigfeet - in a photo of a field bounded by trees.)








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                State Department's Inadequate Records Search

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:02:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:51:19 -0400
Subject: State Department's Inadequate Records Search


TO:   Chairman
       FOIA Appeals Review Panel
       c/o Appeals Officer (IPS/PP/IA) - Room 6001, SA-2
       U. S. Department of State
       Washington, DC 20522-6001

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
       3518 Martha Custis Drive
       Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: May 29, 2003

This appeal challenges the FOIA-request (Case No. 200301092 -
March 25, 2003) records search allegedly conducted by certain
State personnel as reported to me via Ms. Margaret P. Grafeld's
undated letter postmarked May 21, 2003 (copy enclosed).

Ms. Grafeld fails to appreciate the public-safety gravity and
the far-reaching socio-political implications of a UFO-borne
hostile incursion whose official, formal account thereof, and
reaction thereto, MUST have generated ample, permanently
valuable and historic records (even though they're nearly 30
years old). Faced with her managerial shortsightedness, you now
have the opportunity and duty to help me help you locate and
produce the sought-for records generated/received by certain
State personnel privy to the activity perpetrated in 1975
against certain U. S. space satellites by the reported "hostile
aerial craft." Let's make the best of it!

First, I ask that you promptly direct a records-search of all
offices/files repositories operated by and/or contributed to by
the various defense attaches assigned to State posts during
1975. My rationale for your conducting this crucial search lies
in the fact that the adversely affected space satellites were
designed and operated by Defense Department personnel, whose
electronic-message traffic often routinely includes defense
attaches as addressees. Likewise, please search all State
Department components charged with collecting, evaluating, and
disseminating intelligence.

Next, contact all retired U. S. State Department personnel and
defense attaches who happened to be serving at the U. S. embassy
in Canberra, Australia, at the time of the 1975 incident at
issue. In that contact, request their cooperation and input
toward identifying the origin, substance, scope, and likely
whereabouts of the sought-for records. Since this form of
contact would be a reasonable, practical avenue of inquiry that
would be mounted by investigators in, say, an agency-wide probe
by the U. S. General Accounting Office, it should be no less
reasonable or less practical for your review panel to direct it.

Finally: please immediately dispatch a State Department-wide e-
mail message (or other electronic message) to all State
staff/field elements, soliciting their contribution to, and
coordination of, the Department's records-search process in this
case. As a matter of legitimacy, please include in that message
a statement that a key whistleblower (known to me) has come
forward with evidence of the records' original existence.

As you direct, coordinate, oversee, and report upon the results
of the above-requested renewed/expanded records search, please
note that Ms. Grafeld's initial search failed to produce any log
sheet showing the records' final disposition (e.g., destruction,
inter-agency transfer, archival retirement, etc.). If your
department has inadvertently destroyed, lost, or otherwise
mishandled this "essential evidence" of official conduct on such
a vital public issue as the 1975 UFO-borne incursion, then
how/when/where/why/by whom did such a callous act of
mismanagement occur? Please keep that question in mind so that
your review and granting of this appeal will help you (and the
general public) answer it.

Meantime, in preparation for judicial review of this case, I'm
asking the principal whistleblower involved to execute an
affidavit as to that person's first-hand evidence of the
ORIGINAL existence of the requested records.

By choosing to grant this appeal promptly and fully, you will
support the public's need for, and right of, access to whatever
certain current and former State officials knew, and when they
knew it, about the actions, policies, practices, principals, and
records surrounding the historic 1975 event at issue. By
rejecting this appeal, you will contribute to the public's
growing lack of confidence in any government pronouncement on
UFO reality and on the dangers inherent therein.


LARRY W. BRYANT
Director, Washington, D. C., Office of
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy

P.S. By snail-mail, I'm sending to you a signed copy of this
e-formatted letter.

Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief of the Internet website of
http://www.ufocity.com

Chairman, Subcommittee on Government Information, Management, and
Technology -- U. S. House of Representatives

Chairman, U. S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

Chairman, U. S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary

Chairman, U. S. Senate Committee on Government Affairs

Lewis Kannon







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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:30:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:54:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Hatch


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


Hello Ian:

There is no onus on you to prove anything. The onus quite simply
and rightfully is, and always was, upon the person making the
extraordinary claim.

Given the jumble of boxy looking hot things in close proximity,
and the use of an infrared camera, by best guess is a bag full
of "goldfish" cartons, each containing a different kind of
Chinese food still hot from the take-out counter. The largest
one might contain steamed rice  - if I'm on to something here.

I'm no expert when it comes to photography or imaging. For all I
know it could be Indian cuisine, curries etc., but still hot and
with rice.

If someone even hints that its your task to disprove that the
circled object(s) are space-aliens, it says much more about them
than it does about you.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                      Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:37:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:56:26 -0400
Subject: Re:  CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Hatch


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:02:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >>Hello Mac, Larry, Ray and List

 >>The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >>from:

 >>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >>is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size. I
 >>indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a tunnel
 >>leading into the area at:

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

 >It's very difficult to judge the size of anything in these
 >images. The ice (?) dunes could be 100 feet (or more) high,
 >which would make the alleged rover massive as well, not to
 >mention the "tunnel" formation. In addition, since the "rover"
 >wouldn't have been placed where it's seen, I would expect to see
 >tracks. When one scrolls to the bottom of the image it appears
 >hat the terrain becomes much more plain and looks like it was
 >an image that was taken from a great distance away, so I suspect
 >the so-called cactus formations are very large (whatever they
 >are).

 > My 2-cents.



Hello Steve, Colin ..


I see absolutely nothing in either link above that looks the
least bit like a Rover or any other wheeled vehicle. Same goes
for the tunnel. That looks like every other dark shadow left by
the dune which cast it.


Sorry

- Larry








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                            The DINA News Agency?

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:17:58 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:59:26 -0400
Subject: The DINA News Agency?


Dear List,

Does anyone know whether the DINA news agency really exists or
existed, as alleged by a German writer supposedly living in
Tokyo in the 1960s?

The individual able to help me resolve this question will
receive a formal invitation to dine in one of Madrid's least
expensive restaurants and discuss UFOs till sunrise.


Thanks,

Chris








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                   Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:18:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 06:51:05 -0400
Subject: Re:  Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Velez


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:10:19 -0300
 >>Subject: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >>Source: SciFi.com - Chat Room

 >>http://prod.scifi.com/transcripts/2002/drjmack1023.html

 >>Interview with Dr. John E.Mack

 >>Oct. 23, 2002

 >>SCIFIMOD: Hi everyone, thanks for joining us here. I'm Ben
 >>Trumble for SCIFI. Tonight we're pleased to welcome Dr.John E.
 >>Mack. Dr. John Mack is a professor of psychiatry at Harvard
 >>Medical School and a leading authority on the transformative and
 >>spiritual aspects of alien encounters.

 >>SCIFIMOD: Dr. Mack is the author of Passport to the Cosmos:
 >>Human Transformation and Alien Encounters, the 1994 bestseller
 >>Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens, and a Pulitzer prizing
 >>winning biography of the Briitish adventurer and soldier T. E.
 >>Lawrence.

 >>SCIFIMOD: Do you have an opinion on where aliens come from?

 >>JohnMack: The first task in addressing that question is moving
 >>away from literal thinking

 >>JohnMack: This star or that star

 >>JohnMack: They may come from another dimension

 >>JohnMack: One shaman asked them where they're from

 >>JohnMack: and they answered Nowhere and Everywhere

 >>JohnMack: They might come from a star system

 >>JohnMack: Who knows

<snip>

 >>JohnMack: The more you investigate all this

 >>JohnMack: The more you must insist on scientific evidence

 >>JohnMack: But when you opproach all this through science it
 >>becomes evasive

 >>JohnMack: That may be the wrong methodology

 >>JohnMack: That's why I've looked at the profound experience that
 >>stands in its own light

 >>JohnMack: Whether the alines are concrete or spirit beings that
 >>appear in our space

 >>JohnMack: If there are 100's of thousands of encounters why
 >>don't we see more actual objects

 >>JohnMack: I tend to downplay the literal experience for the
 >>mystical

 >This interview from last fall shows why the recent article in
 >Psychology Today can 'get away' with emphasizing the "its all
 >mental" explanation offered by researchers. Mack himself says
 >UFO abductions are not physically provable events. Ergo they
 >must be mental.

 >Mack's big problem, as I see it, is shunning the testimonial and
 >physical evidence that abounds, namely 'plain vanilla' sightings
 >of UFOs or 'Alien Flying Craft' (AFC) which demonstrate that
 >'other intelligences' (OI) are flying around and interacting
 >with the Earth and its populace.

 >Over ten years ago I was Mack's roomate during the first TREAT
 >conference on UFOs and abductions. This was after Budd had
 >introduced him to the topic but before he was convinced of its
 >objective (or subjective) reality and several years before his
 >first book. I tried to get him interested in the physics aspects
 >of the sightings and presented at that conference a paper
 >devoted to the physical aspects of sightings to show that (a)
 >AFCs were (very probably) real and (b) assuming the OIs are
 >real, they could be abducting humans (for their own reasons
 >which we can only speculate about). However, Mack apparently was
 >not impressed with the physical evidence. So, being a
 >"mentalist" himself, has chosen to go "naked" into the world of
 >psychology, without the protective arraignment of "objective
 >evidence" (sightings, photos, radar, etc.). He therefore has to
 >suffer the slings and arrows of the skeptics who would have him
 >place this all into, effectively, altered or "imaginary" states
 >of conciousness.

 >In other words, in the skeptical point of view, all the
 >abduction stories MUST be mentally generated because there are
 >no OIs (aliens) around to abduct people. Since the psychos...
 >ooops... psychologists are, themselves, unaware of the plain
 >vanilla, "real", sightings, and since Mack hasn't really alerted
 >them to this portion of UFO reality (Mack has avoided citing
 >objective evidence in his books and papers and has said,
 >instead, that there may never be physical proof), it is not
 >surprising that they simply dismiss him as "Wacko Macko"
 >(expression in the Boston Globe newspaper).

 >I was one of the people who, about 8 years ago, was asked to
 >provide support for Mack's position when he was under the
 >Harvard gun for being so public about his abduction research. I
 >compiled a briefing package which cited numerous well documented
 >cases in order to demonstrate that the idea "UFOs are real" had
 >to be considered seriously when analyzing abduction cases.
 >However, I presume that none of the Harvard inquisitors saw it.

Hi Bruce,

Thank you. Recently there have been a flurry of posts that hard
sell a purely psychological explanation for all abductions.
Between those posts and some of the credulous material that has
been submitted by alleged experiencers (like 'alien photos' for
instance) has only served to reinforce the belief many have that
'abductees' are gullible, misinterpreting, or simply making it
all up.

Cases involving wide awake witnesses who were caught in the
middle of their daily busy-ness by UFOs and their occupants keep
getting pushed into the background in favor of cases that could
be explained by something like sleep paralysis.

There are a few 'psych' cases out there claiming abduction.
There are a few liars out there making up stories for whatever
their reasons might be. There are even some gullible individuals
who see 'spooks' in every corner who have stuck a label of
'abduction' on whatever it is that may or may not be happening
to them.

But... there _is_ a core of cases involving sane, credible
individuals who have had close encounters with UFOs and
their occupants. Cases with multiple witnesses, landing trace
evidence, physical marks, bruises and scars that were
sustained during the encounters, cases which cannot and
should not be ignored only because there are a few explainable
ones floating around out there.

Abduction, maybe more than UFO cases, suffers from the sloppy
and lazy thinking habit some have whereby; if _some_ cases can
be explained by prosaic means, _all_ cases can be explained by
ordinary means. It's just not true. It never has been for UFO
cases and it is not so for many abduction cases.

In spite of the high percentage of 'explained' UFO cases, there
remains a high number of unexplained/unexplainable ones -
explainable by ordinary means or as ordinary objects.

The same goes for abduction reports.

What has been sorely needed is a way to separate the wheat from
the chaff. A way to 'define' what it is that constitutes an
abduction case worthy of investigation. Until that happens,
every report, no matter how solid or how flakey, will all be
lumped together into one big indistinguishable morass. It will
only serve to make it easier for some to dismiss it all as
nonsense or some as yet undiagnosed psychological disorder.

We need a serious multi-disciplinary investigation into some of
our reports and we needed it yesterday. Again Bruce, thank you
for reminding everyone that not all abduction reports are the
result of someone's flights of fancy. People need to stay in
touch with the fact that it would only take for _one_ abduction
report to be true to create a situation that _everyone_ would
need to be concerned about.


Regards,

John Velez
UFO witness, abductee







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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:19:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 06:54:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Velez


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


It isn't up to you to disprove that this photo is of an 'alien.'
It is up to Colin to prove that it is. If he is going to post
fuzzy, overexposed photos like this one and claim that one of
the many unrecognizable, fuzzy elements depicts an 'alien', then
it is up to him to prove the claim.

Colin, I've been sitting back quietly reading your posts and
purposely refraining from getting involved with any of it. You
have as much right as the next guy to be heard. To tell your
'story'. But, speaking as an abductee and a UFO witness, I have
to tell you that you are not helping our cause one bit.

I have always tried hard to stick to presenting the most solid
cases and what evidence there may be for a genuine abduction
phenomenon. Posting the kind of credulous material that you do,
doesn't help to win over any intellectually honest people, who
may be systematically looking into our claims to see if there is
anything there to justify taking them seriously.

Stuff like this 'alien photo' of yours, along with your calling
it 'proof', _hurts_ our cause much more than it helps.

Believe me.


Regards,

John Velez








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                     Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 06:55:49 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:37:06 -0700
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >I see absolutely nothing in either link above that looks the
 >least bit like a Rover or any other wheeled vehicle. Same goes
 >for the tunnel. That looks like every other dark shadow left by
 >the dune which cast it.

The "tunnel" appears to be a few rills between dunes. Nothing
unusual at all.  In fact, it's a very tame example of this
phenomenon; others are much more extensive and have a three-
dimensional look to them.

The "rover" appears to consist of four of the "cacti" formations
-- whatever they are (or aren't; I still hasen't abandoned the
possibility that they are optical illusions).

=====
 >Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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                       Re: Abydos Helicopter - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:57:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 06:58:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter - Ledger


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:30:10 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:31:33 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:12:14 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:46:11 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>>>From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
 >>>>>Subject: Abydos Helicopter

 >>>>>You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
 >>>>>appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
 >>>>>solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
 >>>>>Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
 >>>>>fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

 >>>>>http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

 >>>>A helicopter on the temple at Abydos? Put there by whom? United
 >>>>Technologies, Inc. Or maybe it was the Greeks who put it up
 >>>>there and their secret writings were stolen by Da Vinci and
 >>>>later by Sikorsky.

 >>>Try this link:

 >>>http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html

 >>What do Egyptologists say these symbols translate out to?

 >Hi Don,

 >That's what Jiri was trying to explain at:
 >http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

 >I visited this site and found it up and running although it
 >takes a while to load. Jiri's arguments are interesting and
 >shouldn't be brushed off.


 >Ed

Hi Ed, Jiri,

Perhaps I'm a bit thick but I must have missed the section where
it says that Egyptologist said that these glyphs were nothing
more than-what? No one actually comes right out and says there
are depictions of flying craft. Just what they look like in
present day frames of reference. Take away the "rotor" on the
helicopter and you have the side view of a Cessna 172, right
down to the slanted tail. And it's proportionally correct too.

Are there no other glyphs in all of the Egyptian hieroglyphic
that tend to resemble those at the temple at Abydos?

So many mysteries, so little time.


Don Ledger






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                     Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:28:00 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:02:08 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Ledger


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:37:06 -0700
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:02:31 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 ><snip>

 >>>The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >>>from:

 >>>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >>>is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size. I
 >>>indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a tunnel
 >>>leading into the area at:

 >>>http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

 >>It's very difficult to judge the size of anything in these
 >>images. The ice (?) dunes could be 100 feet (or more) high,
 >>which would make the alleged rover massive as well, not to
 >>mention the "tunnel" formation. In addition, since the "rover"
 >>wouldn't have been placed where it's seen, I would expect to see
 >>tracks. When one scrolls to the bottom of the image it appears
 >>hat the terrain becomes much more plain and looks like it was
 >>an image that was taken from a great distance away, so I suspect
 >>the so-called cactus formations are very large (whatever they
 >>are).

 >I see absolutely nothing in either link above that looks the
 >least bit like a Rover or any other wheeled vehicle. Same goes
 >for the tunnel. That looks like every other dark shadow left by
 >the dune which cast it.

 >Sorry


Hi Larry, Col,

I blew up the image and had a closer look at what first appears
to be a rectangular-shape which starts to disintegrate once
blown up. A couple of things though. The lines in the
'rectangle' are not aligned with the hundreds or thousands of
spikes see in the image. The light seems to be coming from a low
level from the top right of the image but the shadows don't seem
to correspond [my impression] however there appears to be
shadows. Stains don't cast shadows.. Though there are dark
patches appearing to be stains or show-through from under the
ice/sand [has that been determined for sure?] the spikey
protuberances continue to hold my attention.

Has this image been authenticated?

Don Ledger







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                  Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:42:30 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:19:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Friedman


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

<snip>

 >>JohnMack: The more you investigate all this

 >>JohnMack: The more you must insist on scientific evidence

 >>JohnMack: But when you opproach all this through science it
 >>becomes evasive

 >>JohnMack: That may be the wrong methodology

 >>JohnMack: That's why I've looked at the profound experience that
 >>stands in its own light

 >>JohnMack: Whether the alines are concrete or spirit beings that
 >>appear in our space

 >>JohnMack: If there are 100's of thousands of encounters why
 >>don't we see more actual objects

 >>JohnMack: I tend to downplay the literal experience for the
 >>mystical

 >This interview from last fall shows why the recent article in
 >Psychology Today can 'get away' with emphasizing the "its all
 >mental" explanation offered by researchers. Mack himself says
 >UFO abductions are not physically provable events. Ergo they
 >must be mental.

 >Mack's big problem, as I see it, is shunning the testimonial and
 >physical evidence that abounds, namely 'plain vanilla' sightings
 >of UFOs or 'Alien Flying Craft' (AFC) which demonstrate that
 >'other intelligences' (OI) are flying around and interacting
 >with the Earth and its populace.

 >Over ten years ago I was Mack's roomate during the first TREAT
 >conference on UFOs and abductions. This was after Budd had
 >introduced him to the topic but before he was convinced of its
 >objective (or subjective) reality and several years before his
 >first book. I tried to get him interested in the physics aspects
 >of the sightings and presented at that conference a paper
 >devoted to the physical aspects of sightings to show that (a)
 >AFCs were (very probably) real and (b) assuming the OIs are
 >real, they could be abducting humans (for their own reasons
 >which we can only speculate about). However, Mack apparently was
 >not impressed with the physical evidence. So, being a
 >"mentalist" himself, has chosen to go "naked" into the world of
 >psychology, without the protective arraignment of "objective
 >evidence" (sightings, photos, radar, etc.). He therefore has to
 >suffer the slings and arrows of the skeptics who would have him
 >place this all into, effectively, altered or "imaginary" states
 >of conciousness.

 >In other words, in the skeptical point of view, all the
 >abduction stories MUST be mentally generated because there are
 >no OIs (aliens) around to abduct people. Since the psychos...
 >ooops... psychologists are, themselves, unaware of the plain
 >vanilla, "real", sightings, and since Mack hasn't really alerted
 >them to this portion of UFO reality (Mack has avoided citing
 >objective evidence in his books and papers and has said,
 >instead, that there may never be physical proof), it is not
 >surprising that they simply dismiss him as "Wacko Macko"
 >(expression in the Boston Globe newspaper).

 >I was one of the people who, about 8 years ago, was asked to
 >provide support for Mack's position when he was under the
 >Harvard gun for being so public about his abduction research. I
 >compiled a briefing package which cited numerous well documented
 >cases in order to demonstrate that the idea "UFOs are real" had
 >to be considered seriously when analyzing abduction cases.
 >However, I presume that none of the Harvard inquisitors saw it.

When John and I appeared on the same stage in Australia, and
elsewhere, we had a little chance to talk, and I, too, found,
that he had more or less blindly accepted the notion that one
can't get here from there, having never exammined engineering
data re interstellar travel, nor the physical trace cases. I
believe that this is one of the reasons that J.A. Hynek had
troubles and often leaned closer to mental or 4th dimension
space time warping. Something is going on, but it can't be
straight forward physical visitations. The astronomers and
psychologists are a lot alike. Don't bother me with the
evidence, my mind is made up. One might think that all
abductions occur when people are sleeping!!. T'aint so.

I, too, referenced large scale scientific studies in my piece
for John's attorney when John was having his Harvard troubles.


Stan Friedman
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html









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                     Cape Town UFO Probably Two Planets

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:49:57 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:22:31 -0400
Subject: Cape Town UFO Probably Two Planets


Source: News 24 - Cape Town, South Africa

http://www.news24.com/News24/Technology/News/0,6119,2-13-1443_1366273,00.html

30/05/2003 13:21 - (SA)

UFO Probably Two Planets

Cape Town - The unidentified flying object seen hovering in the
sky on Tuesday, could have been two planets.

Numerous listeners telephoned Kfm 94.5 on Tuesday morning to say
they saw a UFO at about 06:45 hovering in the sky above
Worcester.

One listener told breakfast show DJ, Nic Marais, that he was
driving on the N1 and saw a cigar-shaped UFO gliding above the
clouds just below the moon in the Worcester area.

Doctor Dave Laney of the planetarium in Cape Town said on
Wednesday that the shape of the UFO could indicate that the
listeners saw the Mercury and Venus planets.

Laney said Mercury was on the right-hand side of Venus on the
morning of May 27. Both were directly below the moon.

"Fast moving clouds could easily create the illusion that
objects are moving in the sky. If Venus and Mercury were glowing
mistily through the clouds, it could create the illusion of a
cigar-shaped object", said Laney.

Laney said it was impossible that the alleged UFO could be an
iridium torch.

This phenomenon occurs when one of the panels of the numerous
communication satellites circling the earth, reflects sunlight.

An accurate timetable to catch this phenomenon can be found at:

www.heavens-above.com










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                   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:07:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:27:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Velez


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:36:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:38:43 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 ><snip>

 >>More recently I have expressed my righteous indignation toward
 >>Stephen Bassett, the only UFO lobbyist in Washington DC, as he
 >>proposes to misdirect his energy and valuable resources with
 >>what I am convinced is an ill-conceived campaign to raise a
 >>quarter million dollars to squander on _mock_ hearings.

 >>Money that could be spent/directed toward securing the real
 >>thing - genuine congressional hearings. Open and honest
 >>criticism such as I have expressed in the past is viewed by some
 >>as, in-house back biting or nasty negativism. I consider it my
 >>right and my responsibility to speak out against things I
 >>believe to be obstacles to achieving of the real goal of
 >>attaining complete disclosure on the issue of UFOs. But that's a
 >>whole other issue.

Hiya Steve,

You inquired:

 >May I ask what type of hearings you would want Congress to
 >schedule? Since the Government isn't about to hold a general
 >hearing into annecdotal allegations, I'm not sure how you're
 >going to focus their attention. Congressional hearings would
 >require that any witnesses be vetted and their stories
 >completely checked out before they testify.

You ask and answer your own question all in one breath. :) Yes,
witnesses need to be properly vetted and checked out to the 9's.
That takes money. Money to compensate the investigators, for
travel, and any other costs such as printed material that may be
required in the effort.

That's what I meant by my statement, "Money that could be better
spent/directed toward securing the real thing - genuine
congressional hearings." (When I referred to Stephen Bassett's
proposal to raise $250,000 to put on "mock" congressional
hearings. The equivalent of mounting an off-broadway production.
And which would probably have as much impact on congress as an
off-broadway production.)

And you're wrong when you characterize some of the witness
material as "anecdotal." John Callahan, former head of
investigations for the FAA (into air accidents) has 'hard
evidence' in the form of radar data and corroborated pilot
testimony in a major UFO sighting case. (The Japan Airlines
UFO encounter case that took place off the coast of Alaska.)

There are other witnesses in the bunch who also have some
hard evidence to back up their reports. Not all of the witnesses
are so prepared, but enough of them to make a difference
and to present a compelling case before congress.

 >It would also
 >require some sort of a Congressional sponsor, who could perhaps
 >be convinced of its necessity by a petition by the general
 >public.

That is precisely why I was inquiring about the recent statement
by John Alexander, former head of NIDS, regarding how Greer had
derailed (with his circus-like side-show) _existing_
negotiations between NIDS and an unnamed 'someone' who could
actualize congressional hearings. According to Alexander, the
negotiations fell apart and his contacts went running for the
hills.

None of that was ever answered or checked out. I asked Alexander
to please respond and for anyone who knew him to contact him and
ask the same question. It is important to know how far such
negotiations had progressed and to find out if it was possible,
and under what conditions, to 'revive' them.

These are all vitally important questions. The thread just faded
away as threads are wont to do, and nothing further was ever
discussed or mentioned about it. I'm only one schmuck from New
York, Steve... there's only so much I can do alone. I brought up
the subject, I asked the questions and I did it in a public
forum where others could chime in and lend it some weight if
they wished to.

No such thing ever happened. It all blew by as just another rant
from Velez. Honest, I try to get things of a practical nature
started here all the time. People are just asleep at the wheel
or just not interested in actually _doing_ something.

I put up AIC to present some of the best info available on the
abduction phenomenon.

I actively promote and maintain the International Petition for
UFO info disclosure.

I point out as many strengths and weaknesses in ufology (like
the Greer disclosure project, Stephen Bassett's 'Mock'
congressional hearings etc.)

I post to the List when I think I have something of value to
offer.

But I can't do _squat_ all by myself. "It takes a village" as they
say.

Hey man, are you interested in seriously pursuing congressional
hearings? Do you want to take the responsibility for doing some
of the work that is required to actualize hearings?

Then it _is_ do-able. But without that kind of personal
commitment from many people, nothing will ever happen. Like most
of what goes on on this List, it'll all amount to just so much
'rap.'

I'm down. I always have been. Want to make this happen?
Then let's stop quacking about it and _do_ it. It's a matter
of going through the paces, one by one, that are required
to get from point A to point B.

Nothing to it but to do it. :)

 >Of course, I suspect more than a million signatures
 >would be needed to even get congressional attention. On the
 >other hand, you'd probably attract the press long before that as
 >they re-examine the "kook" factor in all of this.

Hey man, the Roswell initiative gathered 30,000 signatures.
Myself, with the help of a handful of people have managed
to gather over 3000 signatures. (If) the press becomes
involved, raising a million sgnatures would not be as hard
as it seems at first.

Steve, _anything_ can be accomplished if enough people make a
determination for it to happen. Whatever it is. How do you think
mountains like Everst get climbed? How World Trade Centers get
built. Against all odds.

Congressional hearing _can happen_ if enough people will it to
be so. If enough people are willing to do whatever work is
necessary to make it happen.

That's what Victor Viggianni has been talking about in a recent
thread.

 >Having worked as a news reporter, not to mention my having
 >worked at the U.S. House for 18 years, I have found that while
 >there is limited interest on the part of many staffers in this
 >subject, there are far to many pressing issues to take up their
 >time.

They respond to 'numbers' Steve. Show them a petition with the
signatures of a million registered voters and watch em jump
through hoops!

 >I'd also like to believe that Congressional hearings could help
 >in this quest for truth, but I suspect that it will take a major
 >"flap" to re-ignite interest by the general public and as a
 >result their Representatives.

Again, not true. I'd hate to think that 'disclosure' is up to
the "aliens" or whoever/whatever is behind UFOs and abductions.
If we leave it up to them, we may never know. Screw that. Too
many lives have already been turned upside down for something
like that to be allowed.

No, we have to take responsibility ourselves. Waiting for a
'flap' just isn't acceptable or quite good enough.

 >>I have become quite disillusioned with all the preceding efforts
 >>(thus far,) myself. I hope that Victor can successfully launch
 >>an effort that can rouse enthusiastic and international public
 >>support. To that end, I publicly pledge my own support to him in
 >>any way needed to help advance the cause of attaining UFO
 >>information disclosure.

 >Given the past 50+ years of research you have every reason to be
 >disillusioned. The efforts on the part of the Air Force to limit
 >public concern (and ridicule research into UFOs) was very
 >successful. IMO, the grassroots effort to revive public interest
 >is a difficult (if not impossible) challange. Again, a major
 >'flap' would help.

Yeah Steve, it would "help" but like I said, it's not absolutely
necessary. We can do it if we try.

Warm regards,

John Velez







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                        Re: Secrecy News -- 05/29/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:17:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:50:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 05/29/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 46
May 29, 2003


**      TRANSPARENCY IN NUCLEAR WARHEADS AND MATERIALS
**      CIA REPORT ON IRAQI BW TRAILERS
**      POLYGRAPH TESTING TO RISE AT PENTAGON
**      NEW ARCHIVAL RESOURCES
**      JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH


TRANSPARENCY IN NUCLEAR WARHEADS AND MATERIALS

Increased transparency concerning nuclear weapons inventories
can help to verify negotiated limits on nuclear stockpiles, to
defuse international tensions, and to strengthen controls on
nuclear materials, arms control experts say.

Such transparency is the subject of an impressive new volume
published this month by the Stockholm International Peace
Research Institute (SIPRI) and Oxford University Press.

Transparency means the disclosure of information, often
previously secret, in the service of openness and
accountability.

"Transparency is complex in both concept and practice. It is
multidimensional, it is not always a good thing, and
transparency measures have to be orderly, honest and widely
adopted if they are to win the confidence and support of
states," writes William Walker in an introductory chapter.

The political and technological implications of the issue are
fleshed out with admirable rigor throughout the 276 page book.

Transparency is "fundamentally a servant of international law
and of the attempt by states to adopt common norms and rules of
behavior in their mutual interest. It has little meaning or
utility outside that framework."

In fact, the authors scrupulously note that under adverse
circumstances, nuclear transparency could diminish deterrence or
lead to the disclosure of weapons design information and further
proliferation.

Yet while the prospects for immediate progress in strengthening
nuclear transparency "appear poor," concludes editor Nicholas
Zarimpas, "greater transparency in the management of nuclear
warheads and materials would genuinely contribute to the
strengthening of international security, the reduction of
nuclear-related threats and the enhancement of predictability in
inter-state relations."

The book is "Transparency in Nuclear Warheads and Materials: The
Political and Technical Dimensions," edited by Nicholas
Zarimpas, SIPRI and Oxford University Press, 2003. See:

http://editors.sipri.se/pubs/zarimpas.html


CIA REPORT ON IRAQI BW TRAILERS

The Central Intelligence Agency and the Defense Intelligence
Agency published a new report to explain and justify their
conclusion that several mobile trailer-based production
facilities captured in Iraq were intended to produce biological
weapons.

The report was posted on the CIA web site on May 28 and a copy
is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/iraqi_mobile_plants/index.html

Among other things, the public release of the report was
evidently a bid to enhance the government's disputed credibility
on the subject of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

"It's very important to recognize that programs that we had said
existed do exist; that the kind of equipment that we had said
existed does exist," said State Department spokesman Richard
Boucher at a May 28 briefing.

Not everyone was persuaded.

"Because the United States has such a vested interest in proving
the existence of WMD in Iraq, the report's findings cannot be
trusted without independent confirmation," said David Albright
of the Institute for Science and International Security in a
press release. "A credible independent inspection of the
trailers is critical before these trailers are indeed determined
to be mobile biological warfare production plants." See:

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/iraq/mobile_labs.html


POLYGRAPH TESTING TO RISE AT PENTAGON

Despite a blunt determination by the National Academy of
Sciences last year that the accuracy of polygraph testing is
"insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee
security screening," the Department of Defense is preparing to
increase, not decrease, reliance on the polygraph.

A provision in the House version of the 2004 defense
authorization act "would remove existing limits on the number of
polygraph examinations that the Department of Defense may
administer," according to a House Armed Services Committee
report.

The new provision would also eliminate the regular annual report
on the DoD polygraph program, which is one of the only public
windows into the field. Instead of a public report, the
Secretary of Defense would be obliged to make information on
polygraph testing "available to the congressional defense
committees." See the provision language here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2003/hr1588-poly.html

"The foreseeable result of this proposed policy change is that
thousands of additional DoD employees and contractors may be
subjected to the pseudoscientific ritual of polygraph screening,
especially those in information technology positions," said
polygraph critic George W. Maschke of Antipolygraph.org.

In another vivid illustration of the political boundaries of
acceptable science advice to government, the Department of
Energy is preserving its polygraph program unaltered by the
National Academy of Sciences review.

See "Labs to keep giving polygraph tests," by Andrea Widener,
Contra Costa Times, May 28:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/5961259.htm


NEW ARCHIVAL RESOURCES

The United Kingdom Public Record Office last week released a new
tranche of declassified Security Service (MI5) files that are
described here:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/may2003_mi5/list.htm

Hundreds of Albert Einstein's scientific manuscripts, essays and
diaries, some previously unpublished, are now available in an
online archive here:

http://www.alberteinstein.info/


JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH

An entire government agency is devoted to space exploration,
"but no comparable exploratory effort has been directed towards
the Earth's interior, where equally fascinating scientific
issues are waiting to be investigated," writes physicist David
J. Stevenson.

So in an imaginative article published in Nature magazine May
15, he sketches out a proposal to send a probe into the Earth's
core. Up to now, the deepest drill hole has extended 12
kilometers down on the Kola Peninsula in Russia. But Stevenson
wants to go all the way.

No, it has nothing to do with secrecy (don't email me). But the
proposal itself is instructive and enlightening.

The annotated text of "A Modest Proposal: Mission to Earth's
Core" by David J. Stevenson may be found here:

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/faculty/stevenson/coremission/

The annotations include one small error regarding the technology
of space nuclear power.



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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                                Heavenly Hoax

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:28:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:53:46 -0400
Subject: Heavenly Hoax


Source: The Dallas Observer

http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2003-04-03/feature2.html/1/index.html

April 3, 2003


Heavenly Hoax
Texas town has its own brush with a UFO
By Carlton Stowers
carlton.stowers@dallasobserver.com

Long before there was the riddle of Roswell, Texas had its own
strange story of the crash of an unidentified flying object and
the recovery of its pilot. It happened in the Wise County
community of Aurora, west of Fort Worth--a decade before Orville
and Henry Wright got their flimsy plane off the ground.
According to an account that appeared in The Dallas Morning News
on April 19, 1897, "...early risers of Aurora were astonished at
the sudden appearance of an airship...it sailed directly over
the public square and when it reached the north part of town
collided with the tower of Judge Proctor's windmill and went to
pieces with a terrific explosion..."

The colorfully written article, authored by Aurora correspondent
S.E. Haydon, went on to explain how several tons of silver and
aluminum-looking debris from the crash were scattered for acres
and that the body of a dead "pilot," thrown from the craft, was
badly disfigured. "Mr. T.J. Weems, the United States signal
service officer and an authority on astronomy, gives it as his
opinion that he [the pilot] was a native of the planet Mars,"
Haydon reported.

He wrote that the funeral for the celestial visitor was
scheduled for the following day with burial in the Aurora
Cemetery.

Thus began the cult legend that has inspired a movie ("The
Aurora Encounter," 1986) and kept the tiny community of 376 on
the UFO map.

And while generally relegated to the category of hoax, it has
long fascinated the cosmic researchers. In 1973, Dallas Times
Herald aviation writer Bill Case visited Aurora to launch his
own investigation of the event, interviewing several old-timers.
G.C. Curley, 98 at the time, assured the reporter that he and
two of his boyhood friends had actually seen the crash site and
the "torn up body" of the airship's pilot. Several others told
him of hearing passed-along stories of the event.

Most remarkable was Case's claim that, with the aid of a metal
detector, he had discovered the grave site of the
extraterrestrial visitor in the nearby cemetery. It was, he
reported, marked by a small headstone that featured what he
described as a crudely drawn, cigar-shaped object, complete with
a series of circular "windows."

Soon, the International UFO Bureau, a group that investigates
extraterrestrial phenomena, came running, seeking a court order
to have the grave opened and the body exhumed. Aurora Cemetery
Association members said no-way-in-hell and the local sheriff
began guarding the entrance. Vigilant though he was, the
headstone that marked the alleged alien grave ultimately
disappeared.

Today, only a historical marker at the entrance to the graveyard
alerts visitors to the presence of the heavenly visitor
supposedly buried there over a century ago.

In time, the exact location of the unmarked grave was forgotten
and Aurora historian Etta Pegues provided her own take on the
story: "It was all a hoax cooked up by [newspaper correspondent]
Haydon and a bunch of men sitting around the general store," she
wrote. She added that Haydon had a well-known reputation for
telling tall tales. Some in the community, she added, suspected
that Judge J.S. Proctor, owner of the property where the airship
was said to have crashed, might actually have instigated the
story.

Standing behind the counter at the "alien green"-painted Area
114 Gift Shop, Iona Reed says, "People around here don't like to
talk about it anymore."

Does she believe something actually crashed no more than 100
yards from where her daughter's gift shop now sits on the side
of Highway 114? She smiles, shrugs and points to a 45-minute
video produced and narrated by veteran conspiracy writer Jim
Marrs. "It tells the whole story," she says. For only $19.95
plus tax.








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                 Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Dabrowski

From: Andrew Dabrowski <dabrowsa@indiana.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:23:48 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:20:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Dabrowski


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >>From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:10:19 -0300
 >>Subject: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >This interview from last fall shows why the recent article in
 >Psychology Today can 'get away' with emphasizing the "its all
 >mental" explanation offered by researchers. Mack himself says
 >UFO abductions are not physically provable events. Ergo they
 >must be mental.

 >Mack's big problem, as I see it, is shunning the testimonial and
 >physical evidence that abounds, namely 'plain vanilla' sightings
 >of UFOs or 'Alien Flying Craft' (AFC) which demonstrate that
 >'other intelligences' (OI) are flying around and interacting
 >with the Earth and its populace.

I'd like to point out that even if one believes aliens are
responsible for abductions, one does not therefore have to
believe that abductions are physical events. It's conceivable
aliens are capable of some kind of mind control.


Andrew Dabrowski







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                   Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:42:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:24:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Bueche


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Maccabee

 >Mack himself says
 >UFO abductions are not physically provable events. Ergo they
 >must be mental.

<snip>

At the risk of sounding like a "parroting acolyte" (as
Psychology Today called me):

That's not true at all.

Just because something is not physical does not mean it is an
internally generated fantasy. That's entirely erroneous - but
that sort of error is to be expected in this culture. My, I do
sound like a parroting acolyte.

That's Mack's entire point. That experiences which may not be
physical can still be external, intelligent, and living
"provokers," and can interact with us in ways which seem
material, but which don't leave any physical traces behind
because they simply aren't the same sort of material which we
are.

The material evidence which is left behind by alien encounters,
far from being alien material, is simply things which are
ALREADY PRESENT in our reality, which have been affected in some
way. I.e., some may be earth burnt or marked, reflected light
passes into the lens of a camera in the case of UFO photos. But
nothing is ever left behind. Even implants, if you beleive those
bits of tissue are created by aliens, are reported to be made
out of a person's own flesh -- At least, the physical ones are;
it is imperitive to note that energy healers, Reiki people, say
they perceive implants which are not physical at all but which
are as apparent to them as chakras. Which again points to the
conclusion that the aliens are not material in the same sense
that we are material - but are very real.

 >From the aliens' perspective, the aliens are material. But from
 >our perspective, they aren't - you could search the world over
 >and you wouldn't find them, except during those transitory
 >moments when they "crossover" as Dr Mack calls it. It's all
 >relative.

That does not mean they are mental fantasies.

Fifty years into the search for physical artifacts, there's none
in hand of an alien nature. But something which leaves no
artifacts of its own (or only does during horrible accidents, if
you beleive in the Roswell materials) is touching our world -
  touching people, touching the ground, etc., and then vanishing
as if they were never there. I've mentioned it before: Betty
Hill was given a book, and then was told that she could not
really take it back to her world. Why? Were the aliens just
being cheap bastards, or were they using theater to convey a
point? I opt for the latter - a lot of theater to make their
points, to overcome the differences in language and levels of
comprehension.

Does Mack go a bit too far sometimes in speaking of realms of
spirit? Sure, because many people see the word "spirit" and
immediately shut down. But he's trying to lead people to look at
this neglected area as a part of reality that has actual living
intelligences, not as the stuff of the Bible (or other spiritual
texts). And folks like Barry Downing are doing the same.

Myself, if I were Mack, I'd stress more often that there is a
transitory physical componant to the abduction scenario - a few
minutes on either end of the experience when the aliens have for
all intents and purposes entered our physical world. During
which time, there's the light (typically blue light at the onset
of the interaction, and less commonly reported is red light at
the end of the interaction when a person is returned) and the
vibration and so forth, and things in our environment get
affected at those moments.

But I think he fairly articulates his theory that experiencers
are moved into another level of reality when they are brought
into the alien environment, and in that space, everything is as
physical as physical things in this reality are. If he were
suggesting this were fantasy, he wouldn't talk so much about
"crossover" phenomenon, or stress how the experiences are real.
Sure it annoys some people that he then has to explain what real
means, but obviously it needs explanation, since as you noted
there are many people who would make an entirely erroneous leap
that that which is not material "ergo must be fantasy." You even
added the word "imaginary" when you mentioned "altered states of
consciousness," which he'd never do.

Lastly, though Dr. Mack acknowledges that UFOs are part of alien
encounters, trying to tell someone such as the Harvard committee
that UFOs have any relationship to alien encounters was a
stretch they were not willing to make. Sightings of UFOs in
close association with alien encounters, such as in the case of
Peter, who had an experience inside a cabin while two companions
outside hiking saw a luminous object above the cabin (they did
not know he was an experiencer, either, which makes it even more
compelling) was a good case but the committee made it clear that
they were not interested in any evidence other than what the
experiencers reported themselves (because in their view, the
experiencers were crazy).










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                   NASA Rehearses Mars Landing In Botswana

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:46:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:28:17 -0400
Subject: NASA Rehearses Mars Landing In Botswana


Source: Independent Online, South Africa

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=118&art_id=qw1054164240226B213&set_id=1

May 29 2003


NASA rehearses Mars landing in Botswana

Gabarone, Botswana - A NASA team is in Botswana as part of their
goal to send humans to Mars by 2025.

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration team has been
deployed to Shakawe in northern Botswana, to perform tests and
rehearse for the landing on Mars of the Mars Exploration Rover
to be launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida on June 8.

The six person team in Botswana, led by Major Ross Romer from
the United States Air Force, arrived in Maun in northern
Botswana on May 22. They are expected to leave Botswana on June
11.

The Mars Exploration Rover is expected to fly over Botswana at
about an altitude of about 400km around 8pm local time and will
be visible for a period of approximately 15 minutes.

"We will be covering the second stage of Mars Exploration Rover
when the engine cuts off and enters third stage when it ignites
with rocket being pushed to Mars," Romer told local journalists
at a press briefing in the US Embassy in Gaborone.

The Mars Exploration is expected to arrive on Mars in January
2004 and will try to determine the history of climate and water
at designated sites on the planet where conditions may once have
been favourable to life.

When the air bag protected landing craft settles onto the
surface, the Rover will roll out to take panoramic images and
conduct geological tests. The 180kg Rover is expected to stay on
Mars for four months.

  - Sapa-AP







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             Alien Abductions Or Hiding Behind Misplaced Titles?

From: Chris Evans <chrisevans@zoominternet.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:10:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:37:07 -0400
Subject: Alien Abductions Or Hiding Behind Misplaced Titles?


Since I am new to this List, please allow me to briefly
introduce myself. I am the author of Alien Conspiracy:
Unraveling the UFO/Alien Mystery, and known to some as the West
Virginia ufologist who questioned if the real "Krill Document"
was not that volume and compendium, compiled by A. M. Krill for
the Denver science conference (dedicated to 'hypervelocity
techniques' in 1962).

I can sympathize with Mr. Bueche's consternation, and of others
who may have noticed what could recently be viewed as a trend:
That we are seeing many articles and documentaries, etc., that
first appear to "hook" an audience through the use of such
'misplaced titles' making use of such terms as "alien abduction"
and the like. For instance (as Mr. Bueche has pointed out), the
title prefaces its would-be topic as follows:

"Summary: Are alien abductions a misunderstood sleep phenomenon,
or apocalyptic warnings?"

Then, suddenly, we read a stark departure and sharp skew:

"The sect's leader, Rael, maintains that he was plucked from a
volcano by almond-eyed aliens who granted him an audience with
Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad, each of whom confirmed that humans
are descended from extraterrestrials."

Is it not odd to read such a jolting segue? Such that an
apparantly innocent - even clinical - topics as: "misunderstood
sleep phenomen[a]" suddenly becomes redirected (in less than two
lines) to anything from Jesus and Buddha to being snatched from
a volcano by "almond-eyed aliens"....? So immediately, the
question arises, "Where are the benchmark elements of
abduction?" since the article begins as a seeming work of
contrast and comparison, alighting upon the topic of "alien
abduction."

Bear with me, as I am working soley from memory; but a few
months ago, I stumbled (while channel surfing) upon a Discovery
Channel feature, titled: Unraveling the Mystery of Alien
Abduction. The feature included brief on-camera interviews with
David Jacobs and John Mack [who were forthright, honest, and
professional with their answers], yet from the onset, the drive
and theme of the documentary delved heavily into the background
of 'night terrors' and related psychological evaluation angles.

Thus, after what was mostly a full discourse on the subject of
'night terrors,' the piece appeared to imply that the bulk of
the presented evidence [mostly, having none of the commonly
accepted earmarks of abduction] shows that the two are 'one and
the same.' In short, one may - again - identify the age-old
tactic of 'bait and switch' being applied, while the bait may be
construed to hinge upon the recent popularity of the topic of
alien abduction, as a newly found trend. And most solid pundits
of the field of journalism would be quick to point out the taboo
nature of just such a tactic.....

I have enjoyed reading the many posts to this forum.


Chris Evans

<http://www.geocities.com/chrisb_evans/>http://www.geocities.com/chrisb_evans/








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                     Regarding 'Intraterrestrial Sounds'

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:23:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:47:31 -0400
Subject: Regarding 'Intraterrestrial Sounds'


There has been no further information on the sensational claims
made by two Argentinean reseachers affiliated to a contactee
organization. Those claims involved the detection of "strange
intraterrestrial energy readings".

INEXPLICATA correspondent Mercedes Casas has successfully
contacted journalist Juan Abarzua, who was responsible for the
item. This is Mr. Abarz=FAa's comment on the situation:

"In fact, that small news item had greater repercussions than
could be imagined. I received phone calls from a radio network
in Spain and [the story] was picked up by several international
[news] agencies. Those people [the researchers] left me some e-
  mail addresses which unfortunately bounced. I therefore deduce
that they were not the right ones.

As for the film material that some have requested, it can be
requested directly from Mr. Antonio Zuleta in Cachi. If there is
any interest in contacting the persons responsible for the
study, the phone number of Mr. Hesse, one of the researchers is
*******.


Scott Corrales
IHU








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                         Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:06:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:51:13 -0400
Subject: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg


Listerians,

Does anyone have (or know where to get) Ivan Sanderson's
original work on the 1965 Kecksberg object, including his
witness interviews and trajectory calculation? If so, please
e-mail me.


Thanks.

David Rudiak








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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:09:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:53:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:30:53 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >>I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >>an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >>particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >>in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >>looking at this and none of us can see an alien.

<snip>

 >Given the jumble of boxy looking hot things in close proximity,
 >and the use of an infrared camera, by best guess is a bag full
 >of "goldfish" cartons, each containing a different kind of
 >Chinese food still hot from the take-out counter. The largest
 >one might contain steamed rice  - if I'm on to something here.

You saw that, too?! Geez, for a minute there I thought I was
just staring at it for too long. I couldn't see the alien, so I
started looking for Waldo.

Ian







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                              Christopher Ball

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:12:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:12:06 -0400
Subject: Christopher Ball





In the midst of trying to figure out why List-Mail wouldn't go
out for several hours yesterday, it occured to me that I had
neglected to thank Christopher Ball for his invaluable help in
resolving a couple major crises, here, at VSN.

You may recall that, several weeks ago, Sympatico's mail server
in Toronto, without warning, refused to handle mail destined for
the UFO UpDates List. Chris stepped in and offered the use of a
server that he uses, to relay the List-Mail - gratis. [Thank God!]

Chris also helped resolve video problems on the aging [and only]
machine used, among all the tasks performed here, to receive and
send List-Mail.

Heartfelt gratitude to Christopher Ball for preventing what
could have been a near-fatal-blow to the work of The Virtually
Strange Network.


Merci, Christophe
[s'canajun, eh?]









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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Bright

From: Dan Bright <dan@zaziork.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:31:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:38:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Bright


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.


Colin,

Do you jest? Or, is this an attempt to 'prove' the point that
imitation does not _necessarily_ preclude the veracity of 'rods'
as a phenomenon of exotic origin? If that is the case, then
granted; even Amy's superb material does not _totally_ rule out
the possibility that some images of a similar appearance do
actually represent a living species hitherto unknown to science.
However, taken in conjunction with all other factors, such as
the fact that a 'rod' has _never_ been caught and examined, dead
or alive (as far as I'm aware!), I think it's reasonable to
assume, on the balance of probabilities, that the case for rods
being a new species remains unproven.

I'd be more than happy to review any new evidence, should you be
able to produce anything such as, say, a 'rod'. As it stands,
Jose Escamilla et al have made extraordinary claims, backed up
_not_ by extraordinary evidence but by images that are easily
replicated, such as shown by Amy Herbert.

In respect to your "gray" image, I can only assume that this was
indeed intended to illustrate your point, and not an ET.

All the best,

Dan
--
Dan Bright
dan@theunexplained.info
www.theunexplained.info






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                                Rods Exposed

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:04:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:46:34 -0400
Subject: Rods Exposed


Dear List:

I thought this may be of interest to those on the List who are
interested in or are debunking the Rod phenomenon.

On a personal level, I know Jose and his former wife Karen, and
they are two of the most honest individuals I have ever met. I
do not think Jose would knowingly publish material he did not
believe, in his heart, was other than what his personal research
leads him to believe it is.  I know this does not mean that Rods
are real or that Rods are insects, etc.

As an aside, one of the first video tapes Jose shared with me
showed a saucer-shaped craft and then a helicopter. When I
watched the video frame by frame, I saw the saucer-shaped craft
literally transform into a helicopter. If was an amazing thing
to see because it demonstrated something very similar to what
some abductees had described prior to that time.

I found this (see below) and thought I'd share it as an FYI. It
answers some of the questions people have posed here.


Thanks

- Katharina

"20 Questions with Jose Escamilla: Rods

In 1994, Jose and Karen Escamilla accidentally caught on
tape strange flying Rods with undulating appendages. They
continue their quest to find out what they are."


http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa061598.htm

[Also see:

  http://www.roswellRods.com/

  --ebk]









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                 Researchers Seek Witnesses To N.M. Crashes

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:57:15 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:02:46 -0400
Subject: Researchers Seek Witnesses To N.M. Crashes


Source: The News Observer - Raleigh, North Carolina

http://newsobserver.com/nc24hour/ncnews/story/2514956p-2336616c.html

Monday, May 5, 2003 10:25AM EDT


UFO researchers looking for witnesses to N.M. crashes

The Associated Press

AZTEC, N.M. (AP) - Were you looking into the New Mexico sky in
1947 or 1948? Did you see little green men or the smoldering
wreckage of a strange ship? A pair of researchers trying to
uncover the secrets of two purported UFO crashes wants to pick
your brain.

Stanton Friedman, a ufologist and nuclear physicist, was the
first person to investigate a farmer's field in Roswell where
many believe an alien spacecraft crash-landed in 1947. He's also
gathering facts from a lesser-known purported UFO 1948 crash in
Hart Canyon north of Aztec.

Friedman is hunting for people who may have witnessed either
craft's flight or wreckage, but he knows time is running out.

"We're dealing with important real, earth-shaking events. These
are major events in man's history, in New Mexico's history,"
Friedman said.

"The kicker here is we're racing the undertaker. There are
people who know about these events, but don't know who to talk
to."

Friedman is joined in his quest by Scott Ramsey of North
Carolina, who was one of the initial researchers of the Aztec
crash.

"We really need people to come forward," said Ramsey, who has
found declassified military documents about the Aztec crash
during more than six years of study.

Ramsey said a former Air Force intelligence officer told him
everyone who knew about the military investigation in Aztec was
sworn to secrecy for 50 years - a deadline that has now passed.

The men are searching for raw data, any memories or information
a person may have about the Roswell or Aztec crashes.

"We all have that old memory stuck in the back of our brains,"
said Friedman. "It's important to get the data before it's
gone."

---

To contact the researchers, call 1-877-457-0232 or write to
Scott Ramsey C/O Aztec 1948, 15704 Mooresville Rd., Mooresville,
NC 28115.









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                         The Greatest Mystery of All

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:54:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:51:41 -0400
Subject: The Greatest Mystery of All


The Greatest Mystery of All: Somehow, the U.S. Air Force Always
Seemed to Lose the Best UFO Evidence


LWB Note: Having just received a copy of the following e-comment
from researcher W. Todd Zechel responding to columnist Billy
Cox's article in Florida Today for May 20, 2003 - see:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m29-001.shtml

I've sought and received his permission to post it on UFO
UpDates

-----

Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to determine if Cooper
means well but has important memory lapses, or if he just heard
scuttlebutt about the incident filmed by the two Edwards
cinetheodolite operators. It seems clear, however, that Cooper's
description of a central role in the tracking camera filming or
shipment thereof is highly embellished, if not fantasized.

About the only thing which seems certain is that the Air Force's
own records from the National Archives show that the UFO was in
view for 15 to 25 minutes and that the telescopic tracking
camera was rolling most of this time; yet the Air Force claimed
to have only about 20 seconds of film (40 frames, shot at two
frames per second). If in fact the incident involved the
sighting and filming of a weather balloon, as the Air Force
subsequently contended (as does Oberg), why did it retain only
40 frames of film, which surviving cameraman Bittick says is
footage from when they were "clearing the camera"?

The original Edwards investigation labeled the sighting an
"unknown," a conclusion seconded by the 4602nd [Intelligence]
Squadron at Ent AFB. But when the Pentagon Air Force hierarchy
found out about Edward's candor about the incident, Project Blue
Book was ordered to debunk it; and PBB chief Capt. Gregory
concocted the "weather balloon" identification without
consulting any of those involved in the sighting at Edwards,
such as Gettys or Bittick.

Back in 1978 I came across at least one proof sheet of frames
from the the Edwards incident in a room at the National Archives
supposedly not involved with Blue Book audio-visual materials.
In these pics, one could clearly see a "saucer" hovering in the
theodolite crosshairs. I recall thinking at the time that this
was proof Dr. James E. McDonald was correct when he testified
[in a congressional hearing] about the Edwards incident, about
which the Air Force claimed at the time to have no records --
  making McDonald look like a liar.

Yet, one has to be careful how this case is presented today.
Cooper has proved his bravery repeatedly; but, unfortunately,
what he says about the incident cannot be trusted. And the
surviving cameraman, Bittick, understandably does not want to
take on the entire military political machine. He obviously has
very little to gain except a great deal of unwanted attention
from dozens of UFOlogical wizards eager to exploit his testimony
(when I spoke with the Edwards historian some time ago, he said
he'd received dozens of phone calls from UFO buffs after
Cooper's memoir, "Leap of Faith," was published but had no
knowledge of the incident Cooper described in the book) -- while
at the same time fearing the mighty wrath of whatever government
force is behind the UFO cover-up.


Walter Todd Zechel --
Director of Operations
Associated Investigators Group






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                    Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:50:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:56:18 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stevenson


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:48:39 -0300
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>To: UFO
 >>UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100 Subject:
 >>Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>To: UFO UpDates -
 >>>Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>Date: Fri, 23 May
 >>>2003 01:03:14 -0700 Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>To: UFO
 >>>>UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>Date:
 >>>>Thu, 22 May 2003 10:04:52 -0400 Subject: Re: CI: Martian
 >>>>'Cactus'?

 >><snip>

 >>>>They may look like same dunes, but the 'dunes' are really
 >>>>Martian polar ice accumulations. I'm not sure whether
 >>>>they are carbon dioxide or water ice, but they are ice of
 >>>>some type, so I'd expect the darker 'cactus-like growths'
 >>>>atop them to possibly be wind-exposed crystalline growths
 >>>>of material that froze into crystal at it rose (in a less
 >>>>solid form) up through fissures from a warmer environment
 >>>>beneath the ice cap. The wind-blown ice 'frost' would
 >>>>then tend to accumulate around them just as the white
 >>>>sands of Padre Island accumulate along old fence lines,
 >>>>making it look as though the old fence posts grew out the
 >>>>tops of dunes.

 >>>I've gotten nothing but run-around trying to get some
 >>>interpretation of the images.

 >>>Peeling back the USGS URL got me here:
 >
 >>>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/

 >>>... where I read at bottom"

 >>>"For comments or questions regarding images represented on
 >>>these pages and image processing considerations, please
 >>>contact Annie Bennett. "

 >>>I clicked on that and got an email address. Here is Annie's
 >>>response:

 >>>The development team for this web site are not scientist.
 >>>We can only assist in questions pertaining to design and
 >>>development of the web site. Please direct scientific
 >>>questions to:

 >>>ktanaka@usgs.gov OR geosci@wunder.wustl.edu

 >>>Annie Bennett U.S. Geological Survey 2255 North Gemini
 >>>Drive Flagstaff, Arizona 86001 TEL: 928-556-7210 EMAIL:

 >>The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >>from:

 >>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >>is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size.
 >>I indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a
 >>tunnel leading into the area at:

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

 >>(a 283 Kb gif file extracted from the above ida image). There
 >>is also some evidence that said rover is affecting the dark
 >>upstand type things near it.


 >Hi all,

 >Has this photograph been authenticated? I've been away and lost
 >track of this thread. If this is a bonifide transmission that
 >hasn't been played with, then this is a pretty startling
 >artifact.

 >Don Ledger

Hi Don, List

Investigation of tamperring is being done as I type but I would
think that it was checked on upload to the site and is bonafide,
Message sent and reply below. The page may disappear as some
have done before when 'odd things' turn up on them. Or they may
get their paintbrush out again. The Mars Pool was one of these
of which I have data complete with triangular UFO, dam,
spherical objects and tunnels etc

-----

From: "Colin Stevenson" <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
To: <geosci@wunder.wustl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 5:58 PM
Subject: Request for data check

Hello

There are anomilies at:

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

with tear off at bottom.
I wonderred if you could check if the data presented is as you
initially uploaded it ? in order to ascertain integrety of the data
and the website.

-----

Reply;

Dear Mr. Stevenson,

I am forwarding your request to the PDS Imaging Node, USGS
Flagstaff, who maintains this web site. Susan Slavney

----------------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Susan Slavney (slavney@wunder.wustl.edu)
Washington University
1 Brookings Drive, Campus Box 1169
St. Louis, MO 63130
314-935-5493

Geosciences Node, NASA Planetary Data System (PDS)
http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/











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                        Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:09:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:58:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


 >Ian Rogers

Hi Ian, List

The Gray's head is within the red circle and is facing left-
forward. It's body is only partially visible ( very misty,
almost invisible ). You may like to know that since posting this
information that the camera position is under observation by an
ET group - sensed but not yet seen. As I do not have another
camera, I can't do the same thing.

The plot thickens

col








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                    Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:27:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:00:41 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Stevenson


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:02:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 >>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:42:53 +0100
 >>Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Mac, Larry, Ray and List

 >>The thing you may have overlooked on these images, especially
 >>from:

 >>http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/display/MGSC_1232/e17014/e1701475.imq.jpg

 >>is what looks to me like a rover vehicle of quite some size. I
 >>indicate its position and what looks like evidence of a tunnel
 >>leading into the area at:

 >>http://www.colsweb.com/marsrover.gif

 >It's very difficult to judge the size of anything in these
 >images. The ice (?) dunes could be 100 feet (or more) high,
 >which would make the alleged rover massive as well, not to
 >mention the "tunnel" formation. In addition, since the "rover"
 >wouldn't have been placed where it's seen, I would expect to see
 >tracks. When one scrolls to the bottom of the image it appears
 >that the terrain becomes much more plain and looks like it was
 >an image that was taken from a great distance away, so I suspect
 >the so-called cactus formations are very large (whatever they
 >are).

 >My 2-cents.

 >Steve

Hi Steve, List

The image strips are of a certain width (in the main), if the
width is divided by the number of pixels a pixel width can be
roughly estimated. Having done these calculation before with the
Mars Pool image (and got a headache), maybe someone else feels
up to it ?

col








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                        Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:03:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:07:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:30:53 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >>I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >>an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >>particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >>in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >>looking at this and none of us can see an alien.


 >Hello Ian:

 >There is no onus on you to prove anything. The onus quite simply
 >and rightfully is, and always was, upon the person making the
 >extraordinary claim.

 >Given the jumble of boxy looking hot things in close proximity,
 >and the use of an infrared camera, by best guess is a bag full
 >of "goldfish" cartons, each containing a different kind of
 >Chinese food still hot from the take-out counter. The largest
 >one might contain steamed rice - if I'm on to something here.

 >I'm no expert when it comes to photography or imaging. For all I
 >know it could be Indian cuisine, curries etc., but still hot and
 >with rice.

 >If someone even hints that its your task to disprove that the
 >circled object(s) are space-aliens, it says much more about them
 >than it does about you.


Well that proves my point made previously ie; anything can be
something also and debunked very effectively even by proposing
the picture to be of Goldfish cartons, steamed rice and Chinese
food. I'm no expert either of cameras etc, especially IR types
so there you are. Point made.

If the media had a real Gray alien to examine they would say
that it's the result of genetic engineering and that the saucer
he came in was Top Secret military technology so we all are
'on a looser' with trying to prove UFOs and ET, especially
because of the latter.

Chris, folk insist that people who see a UFO and see it
themselves then claim it isn't a UFO but can't explain what the
thing is and this is the point outlined that is illustrated
here. How can it not be a UFO if they can't explain what it is
themselves? On the picture if it isn't an aliens head then what
is it ?

By the way - there's someone around that area with very hot
feet too, if you look at the pathway, especially below the
circled head and path from the front gate. The Gray ET's head is
in the circle looking left forward.

It is an unadulterated still from a video-taping and the camera
is pretty pathetic because I can't afford 'a bought one'.

Please don't send folk with high tech equipment as I have enough
problems from the Police asking me for footage of criminals
walking along the street already :-)

Later I will be using this same camera to spot a few rods for
you all to enjoy :-)

Kind regards,

col







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                         UFO Seen In Tibet In 1661?

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:31:00 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:21:44 -0400
Subject: UFO Seen In Tibet In 1661?


Dear List,

I am trying to trace the original source of an incident that
allegedly occurred in 1661. The story is as follows:

Albert d'Orville, a Belgium Jesuit missionary, was among the
first Europeans to travel to Tibet. In a diary entry dated
November 1661, d'Orville remarked on his own UFO sighting. "My
attention was drawn to something moving in the heavens," he
wrote. "At first, I thought it might be a species of bird,
unknown to me, that lived in these regions. Then the object came
nearer_"

What the priest saw was shaped like "a Chinese double hat" and
seemed to rotate as it flew. "The object winged its way above
the city exactly as if it wished to be admired. It circled
twice, and then was suddenly enshrouded in fog, and as much as I
strained my eyes I could no longer see it."

D'Orville asked a nearby lama whether he, too, had seen the
object, or whether it had been an hallucination. The lama's
reply probably left the Jesuit as astonished as it left me when
I first read Hartwig Hausdorf's book, The Chinese Roswell, where
d'Orville's account is reproduced in full:

`My son, what you witnessed just now was not magic, because
beings from other worlds travel across the oceans of space, and
it was they who breathed the spirit into the first people who
lived on this earth. These beings condemn all violence; they
counsel mankind to love one another. Their teachings are like
seeds, but if these seeds are sown on rocky ground, they cannot
germinate. These beings, who are light-skinned, are always
received by us in friendship, and they often come to earth near
our monasteries. They have continued to instruct us, revealing
truths that were lost in the centuries of cataclysm which have
changed the face of the earth.'

The facts:

i) I know for certain that Albert d'Orville did exist and wrote
about his explorations of Tibet in the 1660s (accompanied by
fellow Jesuit Johann Grueber of Austria, d'Orville travelled on
foot from China through eastern Tibet to Lhasa, and then to
India, between 1661 and 1664).

ii) The English text reproduced above is from Hartwig Hausdorf's
"The Chinese Roswell" (1994, p.88-89).

iii) Hausdorf took the reference from Der Gotter-Schock (Munich,
1992), a book written by Swiss researcher Erich von D=E4niken. I
have not seen this book, so I don't know what von D=E4niken's
source was.

iv) However, a stroke of luck brought me to an excellent Spanish
case-book, "Fen=F3meno OVNI" Volume II, published by Inapp, Madrid
1979. On page 391 an article entitled "Maestros de Otros Mundos
en el Tibet" provides the same alleged diary entry, in Spanish.
It quotes an Italian publication.

v) The source quoted is the book "Los Extraterrestres Existen"
by Gianni Lucarini. This book is unknown to me.

vi) According to the Spanish article, Lucarini's source was the
Italian publication ""l'aeronautica di altri pianet--0-
1081608372-1054297860=3D:11522--








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                       Einstein Letter To Bender 1952

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:36:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:25:48 -0400
Subject: Einstein Letter To Bender 1952


Hi all,

If your interested (?) you can now get Albert Einstein's Letter
to Albert K. Bender of International Flying Saucer Bureau (IFSB)
in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

The Australian link to Bender is well established. Jarrold, a
UFO investigator formed the second research group in Australia,
The "Australian Flying Saucer Bureau" at about the same time the
IFSB had been launched, Jarrold like Bender was also the
recipient of a strange visitor.

The only other UFO connection in the Einstein collection is by
one of the members of the first Australian groups, based in
Melbourne, Victoria - c1951.

The letter is now in the very new "The Collected Papers of
Albert Einstein" data base at:

http://www.alberteinstein.info/

REFERENCE:

Call Nr.         [59 - 188.00]
Dated            11/12/1952
Author           Einstein, Albert
Receiver         BENDER, A
Descriptive Code TLSX  = Typed Letter Signed Xerox Copy
 From Place       PRINCETON
To Place         INTNATL FLYING SAUCER BUREAU, BRIDGEPORT, CT
Pages            1

http://www.alberteinstein.info/db/ViewDetails.do?DocumentID=30454

Short Description of the Collection:

This collection contains the personal papers of Albert Einstein
(1879-1955) and supplementary material collected at the Albert
Einstein Archives. The material documents the life and career of
Albert Einstein. The collection includes the manuscripts of
Einstein's scientific and non-scientific writings, his
correspondence with scientific colleagues and non-scientific
contemporaries, his general correspondence as well as his
personal documents and family correspondence. The collection
also includes non-textual materials such as photographs, sound
recordings and film footage.

Extent and medium of the Collection:

c. 55,000 items (56 meters)


Regards

John W. Auchettl

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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                  Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:28:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:30:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Friedman


 >From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:42:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Maccabee

 >>Mack himself says
 >>UFO abductions are not physically provable events. Ergo they
 >>must be mental.

 ><snip>

 >At the risk of sounding like a "parroting acolyte" (as
 >Psychology Today called me):

 >That's not true at all.

 >Just because something is not physical does not mean it is an
 >internally generated fantasy. That's entirely erroneous - but
 >that sort of error is to be expected in this culture. My, I do
 >sound like a parroting acolyte.

 >That's Mack's entire point. That experiences which may not be
 >physical can still be external, intelligent, and living
 >"provokers," and can interact with us in ways which seem
 >material, but which don't leave any physical traces behind
 >because they simply aren't the same sort of material which we
 >are.

 >The material evidence which is left behind by alien encounters,
 >far from being alien material, is simply things which are
 >ALREADY PRESENT in our reality, which have been affected in some
 >way. I.e., some may be earth burnt or marked, reflected light
 >passes into the lens of a camera in the case of UFO photos. But
 >nothing is ever left behind. Even implants, if you beleive those
 >bits of tissue are created by aliens, are reported to be made
 >out of a person's own flesh -- At least, the physical ones are;
 >it is imperitive to note that energy healers, Reiki people, say
 >they perceive implants which are not physical at all but which
 >are as apparent to them as chakras. Which again points to the
 >conclusion that the aliens are not material in the same sense
 >that we are material - but are very real.

 >>From the aliens' perspective, the aliens are material. But from
 >>our perspective, they aren't - you could search the world over
 >>and you wouldn't find them, except during those transitory
 >>moments when they "crossover" as Dr Mack calls it. It's all
 >>relative.

 >That does not mean they are mental fantasies.

 >Fifty years into the search for physical artifacts, there's none
 >in hand of an alien nature. But something which leaves no
 >artifacts of its own (or only does during horrible accidents, if
 >you beleive in the Roswell materials) is touching our world -
 > touching people, touching the ground, etc., and then vanishing
 >as if they were never there. I've mentioned it before: Betty
 >Hill was given a book, and then was told that she could not
 >really take it back to her world. Why? Were the aliens just
 >being cheap bastards, or were they using theater to convey a
 >point? I opt for the latter - a lot of theater to make their
 >points, to overcome the differences in language and levels of
 >comprehension.

 >Does Mack go a bit too far sometimes in speaking of realms of
 >spirit? Sure, because many people see the word "spirit" and
 >immediately shut down. But he's trying to lead people to look at
 >this neglected area as a part of reality that has actual living
 >intelligences, not as the stuff of the Bible (or other spiritual
 >texts). And folks like Barry Downing are doing the same.

 >Myself, if I were Mack, I'd stress more often that there is a
 >transitory physical componant to the abduction scenario - a few
 >minutes on either end of the experience when the aliens have for
 >all intents and purposes entered our physical world. During
 >which time, there's the light (typically blue light at the onset
 >of the interaction, and less commonly reported is red light at
 >the end of the interaction when a person is returned) and the
 >vibration and so forth, and things in our environment get
 >affected at those moments.

 >But I think he fairly articulates his theory that experiencers
 >are moved into another level of reality when they are brought
 >into the alien environment, and in that space, everything is as
 >physical as physical things in this reality are. If he were
 >suggesting this were fantasy, he wouldn't talk so much about
 >"crossover" phenomenon, or stress how the experiences are real.
 >Sure it annoys some people that he then has to explain what real
 >means, but obviously it needs explanation, since as you noted
 >there are many people who would make an entirely erroneous leap
 >that that which is not material "ergo must be fantasy." You even
 >added the word "imaginary" when you mentioned "altered states of
 >consciousness," which he'd never do.

 >Lastly, though Dr. Mack acknowledges that UFOs are part of alien
 >encounters, trying to tell someone such as the Harvard committee
 >that UFOs have any relationship to alien encounters was a
 >stretch they were not willing to make. Sightings of UFOs in
 >close association with alien encounters, such as in the case of
 >Peter, who had an experience inside a cabin while two companions
 >outside hiking saw a luminous object above the cabin (they did
 >not know he was an experiencer, either, which makes it even more
 >compelling) was a good case but the committee made it clear that
 >they were not interested in any evidence other than what the
 >experiencers reported themselves (because in their view, the
 >experiencers were crazy).


Isn't it time somebody stood up and said "The Emperors have no
clothes!"?

I can see no reason whatsoever to talk about transitory or
ephemeral physcial phenomena. Radar shows hard objects behaving
in interesting ways. Aliens tried to take out Betty's teeth. The
needle was physical. Travis Walton grabbed a piece of stuff to
threaten the aliens with..... Where is the problem?

I for one would be totally astonished if a technologically
advanced civilization did NOT have advancement in biology,
telepathy, the world of the spirit, reincarnation etc. They
would study aging and learn to control it and live a long time,
have great computers and wisdom..

The notion that they would only be concerned with advanced nuts
and bolts technology seems absurd to me. Denial of 3-D reality
in the physical trace cases seems equally absurd. After all 18%
of Ted Phillips' trace cases involve reports of small beings.
There are footprints..... I really don't expect they would leave
care packages for earthlings or gold plated business cards. I
certainly don't expect the governments of the world to disperse
pieces of a saucer at Halloween time.

Sure they might be able to pop from here there just as they can
go through solid walls.. as can radio waves carrying picture
which we can watch on a device inside a closed room. That would
have been considered absolutely crazy to Harvard Professors 120
years ago.

I will be gone until June 10, but will look forward to this
discussion.


Stan Friedman







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                     Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 06:49:53 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:32:09 -0400
Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'? - Tonnies


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:28:00 -0300
 >Subject: Re: CI: Martian 'Cactus'?

<snip>

 >Has this image been authenticated?

Yes. You can see it in NASA's Mars photo archive courtesy of
imaging subcontractor Malin Space Science Systems. I have the
direct link on page 38 of

http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


--Mac








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                    Historic Mars Lander 'Did Find Life'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:42:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:42:51 -0400
Subject: Historic Mars Lander 'Did Find Life'




Source: BBCi News - Science

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2941826.stm

Thursday, 29 May, 2003


Historic Mars lander 'did find life'
By Helen Briggs
BBC News Online science reporter

Claims have re-emerged that the US space agency (NASA) did find
signs of life on Mars during the historic Viking landings of
1976.

Dr Gil Levin, a former mission scientist, says he now has the
evidence to prove it, just days before the US and Europe send
new expeditions to the Red Planet.

The United States and Russia have spent billions since the 1960s
on a handful of space craft designed to land on Mars.

Only three have succeeded so far: the two Viking probes in the
1970s and Mars Pathfinder in 1997.

In 1976, the world was gripped by excitement when a robotic
spacecraft touched down on Mars for the first time in history.

Biology experiments detected strange signs of activity in the
Martian soil - akin to microbes giving off gas.

Before announcing the news that life had been found on another
planet, Nasa carried out more tests to look for evidence of
organic matter.

However, the Viking experiments failed to find this essential
stuff of life and it was concluded that Mars was a dead planet.

New evidence

Dr Levin, one of three scientists on the life detection
experiments, has never given up on the idea that Viking did find
living micro-organisms in the surface soil of Mars.

  He continued to experiment and study all new evidence from Mars
and Earth, and, in 1997, reached the conclusion and published
that the so-called LR (labelled release) work had detected life.

He says new evidence is emerging that could settle the debate,
once and for all.

He told BBC News Online: "The organic analysis instrument was
shown to be very insensitive, requiring millions of micro-
organisms to detect any organic matter versus the LR's
demonstrated ability to detect as few as 50 micro-organisms."

Dr Levin, now president and CEO of US biotechnology company
Biospherix, has a new experiment that he says "could
unambiguously settle the argument".

But it was rejected by both Nasa and the European Space Agency
(Esa) to go on-board this summer's Mars missions.

The British-built Beagle 2, which will be deposited on the
Martian surface by Esa's Mars Express space craft, is going with
the main purpose to hunt for life. This is a risky strategy,
claims Dr Levin.

"Strangely, despite its billing, Beagle 2 carries no life
detection experiment!" he said. "Neither its GCMS (organic
detector) which is claimed to be more sensitive than Viking's,
nor its isotopic analysis instrument can provide evidence for
living organisms."

Robot geologists

Nasa's mission to Mars is taking a more circumspect approach to
the big life question.

Its two identical rovers will roam the ancient plains of Mars
acting as robot geologists.

Mark Adler, deputy mission manager, said the main science
objective was to understand the water environment of Mars not to
search for life.

He told BBC News Online: "What we learnt from Viking is that it
is very difficult to come up with specific experiments to look
for something you don't really know what to look for."

Claims of life on Mars have always proved highly contentious.
Twenty years after Viking, microbe-like structures discovered
inside a Martian meteorite found in Antarctica led to more
claims that were later rejected.

As the astronomer Carl Sagan once said, extraordinary claims
require extraordinary evidence. And there is no reason to
believe that anything found this time will be any different.

"It's going to take a number of missions if we want to know
whether there is life on Mars or not," said Dr Charles Cockell,
a Mars biologist at the British Antarctic Survey in
Cambridgeshire, UK.

"If we find no evidence of life on Mars it may just mean we have
looked in the wrong place."


[UFO UpDates thanks Pedro Cunha for the lead]







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                  Re: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:50:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:49:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg - Coleman


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:06:55 -0700
 >Subject: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg

 >Does anyone have (or know where to get) Ivan Sanderson's
 >original work on the 1965 Kecksberg object, including his
 >witness interviews and trajectory calculation? If so, please
 >e-mail me.

The short answer is... no one probably knows.

A lengthy reply would have to take into account the unfortunate
demise of the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained
(SITU) before and after Ivan T. Sanderson's death on Feb. 19,
1973.

Under Sanderson's leadership, and with help from folks like Mark
A. Hall and Bob Durant, SITU did good work throughout the 1960s
and as the 1970s began. But after Hall had to go back to
Minnesota, and Sanderson grew more confused with handlers and
medications, SITU fell apart.

Rumors have it that "researchers" in station wagons were pulling
up to the Columbia, New Jersey, cinder block house that _was_
SITU, and loading files upon files into the backs of their
vehicles. That many valuable Sanderson investigations
disappeared into the New Jersey night is fact. What and where
these materials were and have gone is pure speculation.

I and others have tried to track down the missing Sanderson
files and what is left of SITU for years. Copies of the
Kecksberg object work done by Sanderson may yet remain in
someone's files. Finding it may be a difficult task.

I would like to know what anyone knows, too, about this.


Best

Loren Coleman








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                   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:32:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:05:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Kaeser


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:07:01 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:36:29 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >Hiya Steve,

 >You inquired:

 >>May I ask what type of hearings you would want Congress to
 >>schedule? Since the Government isn't about to hold a general
 >>hearing into annecdotal allegations, I'm not sure how you're
 >>going to focus their attention. Congressional hearings would
 >>require that any witnesses be vetted and their stories
 >>completely checked out before they testify.

 >You ask and answer your own question all in one breath. :) Yes,
 >witnesses need to be properly vetted and checked out to the 9's.
 >That takes money. Money to compensate the investigators, for
 >travel, and any other costs such as printed material that may be
 >required in the effort.

 >That's what I meant by my statement, "Money that could be better
 >spent/directed toward securing the real thing - genuine
 >congressional hearings." (When I referred to Stephen Bassett's
 >proposal to raise $250,000 to put on "mock" congressional
 >hearings. The equivalent of mounting an off-broadway production.
 >And which would probably have as much impact on congress as an
 >off-broadway production.)

You're not really talking about funding the vetting of witnesses,
but of the preparation costs associated with trying to investigate
and prepare for such hearings. The actual vetting is usually
performed by congressional staff (or another agency at their
request) and not by those preparing to testify. This is, of
course, a political world in Washington and the Congress does not
appreciate suprises.

 >And you're wrong when you characterize some of the witness
 >material as "anecdotal." John Callahan, former head of
 >investigations for the FAA (into air accidents) has 'hard
 >evidence' in the form of radar data and corroborated pilot
 >testimony in a major UFO sighting case. (The Japan Airlines
 >UFO encounter case that took place off the coast of Alaska.)

I think you've identified a very good witness, and we both saw his
presentation last fall in Washington at the Sci-Fi Channel's
George Washington University presentation. It is part of the
edited version of that event that was aired by the Sci-Fi Channel
in late December and presents interesting evidence of a Federal
cover-up. Unfortunately, it's generally very old news as far as
Congress is concerned and you'd have to come up with a lot of
public pressure to force them to look back at old incidents such
as his.

 >There are other witnesses in the bunch who also have some
 >hard evidence to back up their reports. Not all of the witnesses
 >are so prepared, but enough of them to make a difference
 >and to present a compelling case before congress.
 >
 >>It would also
 >>require some sort of a Congressional sponsor, who could
perhaps
 >>be convinced of its necessity by a petition by the general
 >>public.
 >
 >That is precisely why I was inquiring about the recent statement
 >by John Alexander, former head of NIDS, regarding how Greer had
 >derailed (with his circus-like side-show) _existing_
 >negotiations between NIDS and an unnamed 'someone' who could
 >actualize congressional hearings. According to Alexander, the
 >negotiations fell apart and his contacts went running for the
 >hills.

[massive snip for bevity]

John, I would like to respond more specifically to some of the
points you've raised in the portion that I've snipped out, but
don't have time to get into it right now.

There has been a group of researchers that spent years trying to
keep in contact with various Representatives on issues that
pertain to this quest. The "giggle" and "kook" factor keeps most
politicians away from this genre, but there are specific
(related) facets that could be investigated or pursued.
Excessive Government secrecy is one area that has been looked
at, and it came very close to moving toward some sort of a
Congressional review in the early 90's. Unfortunately, leadship
changes ignited political battles and the first "Congreesional
Briefing" event, sponsored by CSETI and Dr. Greer, caused all
interest to dry up. As a result, years of efforts were lost and
we were pushed back to square one..... And I don't even want to
get into the disorganized effort to try and attract an "anti-
war" type group to picket in the streets of DC. We still have to
deal with the silly pictures of picketing in front of the
Washington Post (of all places).

You've got the right idea with regard to petitions and
signatures, and a grass roots effort can succeed if enough
people join in. But I think you're going to have a difficult
time trying to raise this issue to the level that it becomes a
major issue in the lives of the general public. Demonstrations
and efforts to sway Congress with regard to the Viet Nam war
took years to have any impact and it wasn't until enough people
were personally touched that the numbers became significant
enough. I have serious doubts that this level of interest will
be generated without some major "flap" or disclosure from within
the Government. Of course we (in the genre) control neither.

When I have an opportunity to discuss the issue with other staff
here on the "Hill", I do so. There is a certain amount of
interest that goes beyond its entertainment value, and on a few
occasions I've had staff tell me of their experiences or
sightings. But even those who've been 'touched' by the genre
personally are forced to deal with the day-to-day problems that
come up and it will take something major to move this subject to
the top of the heap.

The late Congressman Schiff was a Member we could approach, but
even he was limited in what he could propose politically.
Obviously, the GAO report could have been pursued through a
Congressional Hearing, but the costs of preparation would have
caused other Members to complain about the waste of taxpayer
dollars on "fringe" ideas and it was a battle that Schiff knew
he couldn't win (and more importantly, he knew that he would be
politically damaged by such a fight).

I certainly wouldn't want to detract from the petition efforts
that are underway, and it's certainly an effort that can help to
bring people together in fighting the 'good fight'. You've named
one witness that should be included in such hearings, and
perhaps we should try to create a list. Given the weight of a
good list of (pre-vetted) witnesses, we could proceed with
approaching sympathetic Members who could support a probe.


Steve








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                      Nick Redfern On 'Strange Secrets'

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:53:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:34:22 -0400
Subject: Nick Redfern On 'Strange Secrets'


Source: Steamshovel Press

May 23 2003

http://www.steamshovelpress.com/latestword14.html

Nick Redfern emigrated to the USA to live in 2001. Nick's new
book, Strange Secrets: Real Government Files on the Unknown (co-
written with British author Andy Roberts), is just about to be
published by Simon & Schuster. We speak with him about the book
and its revelations linking the world of British, American and
Russian Intelligence with that of the unexplained.

Q: What, broadly, is Strange Secrets about?

A: Essentially, the book is an examination of official files
created from the 19th Century to the present day and shows the
way in which various Intelligence agencies, such as the CIA,
MI5, the US Defence Intelligence Agency and former KGB - among
numerous others - have investigated unexplained phenomena and
unsolved mysteries and have collated what might be termed real-
life X-Files.

Q: Can you give the readers a few examples of the information
that appears in the book?

A: Sure. The first thing I would want to stress to anyone
reading this interview and who is contemplating buying the book,
is that it does not rely on questionable or anonymous sources or
unverifiable data. Even though some of the subject matter might
be considered bizarre, the book is based solely on an
examination of official documents that have surfaced via the US
Government's Freedom of Information Act or the British
Government's Thirty Year Ruling. I guess that perhaps one of the
strangest revelations is the fact that both British and US
Intelligence have investigated the so-called Crop Circle
mystery. Practically everyone who reads UFO Magazine, I am sure,
has heard of Crop Circles and has seen photographs of the
various formations - or pictograms - that appear throughout
England and the world each year. But less well known is what has
been learned about the subject at an official level. For more
than a decade rumours have circulated to the effect that the
British Government has undertaken covert investigations of Crop
Circles. To an extent, at least, that is true. At the Public
Record Office at Kew there exists an intriguing file prepared at
the height of the Second World War by none other than MI5 and
that was declassified in 2001. The file deals with the way in
which MI5 suspected that Nazi sympathisers and Fifth Columnists
in the UK were sending messages to - and communicating with -
  the enemy. Interestingly, MI5 learned that in Poland, Holland,
France and Belgium, this included 'the cutting of cornfields
into guiding marks for aircraft'. To illustrate how closely this
parallels today's Crop Circles, the official file refers to
enemy sympathisers 'beating out signs twenty metres in diameter
on harrowed fields or mowing such signs on meadows or
cornfields'. Crop circles in other words! Interestingly, MI5
investigated a number of such formations that appeared in
various British fields from 1940-1943 to determine if any of
those same formations were some form of coded message intended
for German pilots flying overhead.

Q: Have British authorities been involved in investigating
other, similar mysteries, too?

A: Yes, and particularly during the Second World War. One
perfect example is contained in a chapter we title 'The Dowsing
Detectives.' This is a look at a fascinating and never-before-
seen file on a piece of wartime history that reveals the way in
which elements of the British Police Force used people with
dowsing abilities to locate dead bodies buried under the rubble
created by Hitler's forces. As with many controversial subjects,
the Police file reveals that there were as many believers in the
ability of the dowser as there were those who thought that the
subject should be ignored. But what is perhaps most interesting
is that it was police personnel themselves that were doing the
dowsing. And they had some startling successes too in locating
dead bodies purely by water divining-means. And these events
attracted the keen attention of the British Government, with the
files and reports reaching the wartime Ministry of Home
Security, which took a close interest in the way in which the
controversy developed.

Q: What is the oldest file you have in the book?

A: This would have to be a series of documents that we found in
the files of the British Admiralty that are held at the Public
Record Office at Kew. Contained in these documents are various
accounts of sightings by naval personnel of what can only be
described as Sea Serpents. Let me quote to you the text of one
such report, written in 1830 by Captain James Stockdale of the
ship the Rob Roy, who had an amazing encounter near the island
of St. Helena on Sunday, May 9 of that year. Stockdale wrote:
'About five p.m. all at once while I was walking on the poop my
attention was drawn to the water on the port bow by a scuffling
noise. Judge my amazement when what should stare us all in the
face as if not knowing whether to come over the deck or to go
around the stern - but the great thundering big sea snake! My
ship is 171 feet long overall - and the foremast is 42 feet from
the stern which would make the monster about 129 feet long. The
brute was so close I could even smell his nasty fishy smell.'
This is just a small extract from Stockdale's account and it
makes for bizarre and illuminating reading. And this is just one
of a number of such accounts held in the British Admiralty's Sea
Serpent File.

Q: The Press Release for the book also talks about British
Government files on Foo Fighter sightings during the Second
World War.

A: Yes. As many readers will know, the Foo Fighters were
essentially a precursor to what would later become known as
Flying Saucers and UFOs. All credit to finding these Air
Ministry and Royal Air Force files must go to my co-author Andy
Roberts and Dr. David Clarke. Throughout much of the war,
military pilots - both Allied and Axis - reported close
encounters with strange aerial phenomena that became known as
Foo Fighters and that were described as being like small balls
of light or globes of light that would approach military
aircraft at high speed, fly alongside them and then usually
streak away at high speed without exhibiting any outward
hostility. The Air Ministry's files from the War reveal the
details of a number of such cases and the way in which they were
investigated at an official level, along with the theories that
the Foo Fighters were possibly some sort of German secret
weapon. But one report in particular falls into a classic UFO
category and refers to the sighting by a Royal Air Force crew
taking part in a raid on Turin in 1942 of a 2-300 foot long
object seen flying at an estimated speed of 500 MPH.

Q: The book contains several other chapters that have a UFO
connection to them.

A: Yes. We also include an extensive chapter on FBI files on the
so-called Cattle Mutilation mystery that has afflicted much of
the USA for decades. On numerous occasions dating back to at
least the 1960s, ranchers across the USA have reported finding
their cattle dead with blood drained from their bodies and
organs removed with what looks like surgical precision. Unmarked
helicopters are often seen in the vicinity of the mutilations,
as are unusual and unidentified aerial lights. Again, for the
sceptical, I would stress that this is all corroborated in the
FBI's own officially released records that are reproduced in the
book. Various theories have been put forward that these
mutilations are linked with UFOs or Satanic cults. However, I
dug very deeply into this mystery and located at the National
Archives in Maryland various formerly Top Secret files from the
late 1940s showing that the US Government's Research and
Development Board was very concerned that a hostile nation would
attempt to cripple the US food chain by deliberately infecting
the cattle herd with a lethal biological agent. Moreover, it was
stated at the time that US authorities should keep a regular
check on the cattle herd to determine if someone had
successfully infected it with lethal and dangerous viruses.
Personally, I'm now convinced that many of the so-called Cattle
Mutilations are the work of covert military units that
periodically and randomly carry out stealthy checks on the US
cattle herd to determine the presence of these emerging viruses
and diseases that might have been introduced deliberately by
foreign and unfriendly nations and maybe, today, even by
terrorist-type groups.

Q: Strange Secrets also addresses the way in which the US
Government and the Nazis attempted to build Flying Saucer-like
aircraft. Can you expand on this?

A: Yes. There have been long-standing rumours to the effect that
the Nazis developed prototype aircraft in the latter stages of
the Second World War that would broadly fit the classic
description of a UFO or a Flying Saucer. Several such reports
exist in the files of the FBI in the form of interviews with
former Luftwaffe personnel, for example. Similarly, the FBI's
records reveal that as far back as 1947, a number of FBI agents
were personally convinced that UFOs were the product of a secret
US programme that was designing and building Flying Saucer-like
craft based on captured German technology brought to the US at
the close of the Second World War and in conjunction with the
Paperclip operation that secured the use of numerous German
scientists for postwar research. But perhaps most eye-opening
are the files we reproduce in the book from the US Air Force
that show as far back as 1962, studies were being undertaken to
try and build and deploy a fleet of battle-ready and fully armed
Flying Saucer-style spacecraft that would orbit the Earth at a
height of 300 miles for up to six weeks! We also show the way in
which the CIA carefully exploited the UFO mystery as a cover for
its covert U-2 flights at the height of the Cold War.

Q: In terms of content, what would you say is the strangest
official file that appears in the book?

A: That would have to be the FBI's file on the Contactees.
These, as I'm sure you're aware, were people who, in the 1950s
and 1960s, claimed to be in contact with human-like aliens who
wanted us to disarm our nuclear arsenals and live in peace. Many
of the accounts are of an outrageous, bizarre nature and are
very cult-like. And as strange as it seems, the FBI collated
extensive files on many of these people who claimed alien
contact. However, the Freedom of Information Act shows that the
foremost reason for the FBI's interest and concern in these
people was not because of the alien aspect of their stories per
se. Rather, it was because several of the Contactees, such as
the notorious George Adamski, were claiming that their alleged
alien friends had a Communist style of government! Today this
aspect of the FBI's investigations might seem totally
unbelievable and unwarranted; but 50 years ago, at the height of
the Cold War, J. Edgar Hoover dispatched agents to uncover
anyone that might have Communist leanings; and this included the
so-called Contactees. Sometimes truth really is stranger than
fiction.

Q: The book also focuses on religion, too.

A: That's correct. We have a chapter in there on the CIA's file
on Noah's Ark. There have been stories quietly told for many
years that in the late 1940s and 1950s the CIA carried out a
covert search for the remains of the legendary Ark of Noah that,
according to the Bible, came to rest on Mount Ararat, Turkey.
There are references to satellite and aircraft imagery of the
Ark and even tales of remnants of the Ark having been recovered
by US Intelligence. The files that the CIA has released via the
Freedom of Information Act add valuable and intriguing data to
this story. Within the CIA, the Ark - or what some suspected to
be the Ark - became known as The Ararat Anomaly.

Q: It's been a long-standing and acknowledged fact that US
Intelligence has spent a lot of time delving into the world of
Remote Viewing or what might be termed Psychic Spying.

A: That's right. Our book includes a whole section titled Mind
Games that includes 5 chapters on the way that research into the
power of the mind as a potential tool of espionage has been
studied in both Russia and the USA. Maybe strangest of all was
the research that both the US Department of Defence and the
Russian military carried out to determine if Extra-Sensory
Perception - or ESP - existed in the Animal Kingdom. Their
conclusions - reached entirely independently - suggested it
probably did exist in some form in higher animals such as dogs.
The US DoD report also focuses on the possibility of an
afterlife in the animal kingdom and discusses various
experiments that had been undertaken to try and ascertain this.
We also show that in 1952 the US Department of Defense was
briefed on the way in which extrasensory perception could be
used as a tool of psychological warfare. On this later subject
of psychological warfare, we also reveal the way in which the US
Army exploited legends of Vampires, Werewolves, Witchcraft and
Sorcery to terrify superstitious enemy troops on various
battlefields in the Philippines and in Vietnam.

Q: Having conducted all of this research, what are your
conclusions about the way in which the worlds of officialdom and
the unexplained have crossed paths?

A: Well, it's quite clear from examining the files on ESP and
Psychic Spying that this research was carried out purely to
determine if, at the height of the Cold War, there was a chance
that the phenomena could be used as a tool of espionage.
Similarly, the FBI's files on the Contactees had deep Cold War
overtones and related directly to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover's
concerns about Communism and the very real Soviet threat that
existed at the time. And it can be argued that the British
Government files on Crop Circles, Dowsing and the Foo Fighters
were created largely as a result of the Nazi threat of the
1940s. And of course, the issue of lethal viruses and biological
warfare as it relates to the Cattle Mutilation issue is one that
is very relevant in today's post-9-11 world. But there are files
in the book that are more problematic in terms of the motive for
their creation - such as the CIA files on Noah's Ark.

Q: Briefly and finally, does the book focus on any other areas?

A: Yes. We have chapters on the Royal Air Force's files on
sightings of the Loch Ness Monster; FBI records on so-called
Spontaneous Human Combustion; official records on encounters
with real-life Men in Black; US Government files on rare weather
phenomena such as Ball-Lightning; British Government records on
sightings of large, predatory cats seen roaming the countryside
- such as pumas and panthers and much more.

Q: Can we expect to see any other titles from you in the future
and what are you doing in the US now?

A: I'm doing a lot of work with Ryan Wood, of
www.majesticdocuments.com on the whole MJ12 controversy. Andy
Roberts and I have a book coming out next year on an alleged UFO
crash incident in Wales in 1974 and that coincides with the 30th
anniversary of the case, and I also have another book out next
year on another big interest of mine - cryptozoology, or the
search for unknown animals.








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   May > May 31

                Sci-Fi Channel To Broadcast 'Out Of The Blue'

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:12:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:45:49 -0400
Subject: Sci-Fi Channel To Broadcast 'Out Of The Blue'


[This is the text from a press release issued by the Sci-Fi
Channel this week.]

May 27, 2003


Are We Alone?

SCI FI Channel Premieres Award-winning Documentary 'Out of the
Blue,' Narrated by Peter Coyote, On June 24

Filmmakers James Fox, Tim Coleman and Boris Zubov take an
explosive look at the legitimacy of the UFO phenomenon in the
award-winning, feature-length documentary Out of the Blue. For
the first time, high-ranking military and government personnel
go on record saying that certain unidentified flying objects
could in fact be of extraterrestrial origin. Narrated by Peter
Coyote, Out of the Blue premieres Tuesday, June 24 @ 9 p.m.
ET/PT exclusively on SCI FI Channel as part of its 'Tuesday
Declassified' primetime block.

Former astronauts, including Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell,
disclose knowledge of the covert effort to keep this subject
matter classified. Military personnel recall witnessing UFOs
disabling nuclear missiles during test flights. Even former U.S.
Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter come forward to offer
accounts about their involvement with the UFO phenomenon. All of
the accounts have a similar theme: something is definitely out
there.

Out of the Blue traces sightings and reports from around the
world, with testimony from high-ranking military personnel and
astronauts from the United States, England, Russia and France.
Also, astrophysicists and NASA propulsion experts share the
latest theories on the possibilities of interstellar travel.

SCI FI's broadcast of Out of the Blue reinforces the Channel's
commitment to furthering serious public inquiry and
understanding of the UFO phenomenon. Last year, SCI FI launched
a Washington, DC based public advocacy initiative to draw
greater attention to this issue by the media and opinion
leaders. The Channel is currently lobbying Congress to gain
support for more scientific inquiry into the phenomenon.








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   May > May 31

                             UFOs And The Church

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:16:32 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:48:02 -0400
Subject: UFOs And The Church


Source: The World of the Strange

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/quotes/a1.htm

"The signs are increasing. The lights in the sky will appear
red, blue, green, rapidlly. Someone is comming from very far and
wants to meet the people of Earth. Meetings have already taken
place. But those who have really seen them have been silent."

Pope John XXII 1935


Source: Michael Hesemann Web Page

http://hesemann.watchers.ca/balducciengl.html

The Lord certainly did not limit His glory to this small Earth.
On other planets other beings exist who did not sin and fall as
we did." - St. Padre Pio of Pietrelcina (1887-1968), canonized
June 16, 2002








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                  The Truth Is Out There Are the Witnesses?

From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:08:31 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:38:35 -0400
Subject: The Truth Is Out There Are the Witnesses?


Source: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40459
-2003May10&notFound=true

Sunday, May 11, 2003; Page A02

UFOs: The Truth Is Out There, But Are the Witnesses, Too?

You know that crazy great-uncle who tells you tales about the
UFO that crashed more than 50 years ago in New Mexico? Don't
write him off too quickly - he's just the type of person two
researchers are currently on a quest to find.

Stanton Friedman and Scott Ramsey are looking for anyone with
details about two purported UFO crashes in the late 1940s.
They're certain some people have stories to tell about flying
discs that allegedly met their doom near the New Mexico towns of
Roswell, in 1947, and Aztec, in 1948.

But because those with firsthand information would be getting on
in years, Friedman and Ramsey say their mission gets more urgent
each day.

"It's a race with the undertaker at this point," said Friedman,
a nuclear physicist who was the first civilian investigator of
the Roswell ranch where some believe a UFO crash-landed. Ramsey,
who owns a magnet wire company in North Carolina, has been
researching the Aztec crash since 1989.

Friedman said he believes the U.S. government has long concealed
information related to the crashes, amounting to what he calls a
"cosmic Watergate."

"These are crucial events in recent history," Friedman said. "It
means that aliens aren't perfect, the government is capable of
keeping secrets and people have been laughed at for a long time
because of cover-ups."









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                       Re: Abydos Helicopter - Mruzek

From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:46:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:50:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter - Mruzek


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:46:11 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Abydos Helicopter

 >>From: Jiri Mruzek <jirimruzek@shaw.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:15:48 -0700
 >>Subject: Abydos Helicopter

 >>You must have heard of the Abydos Helicopter. For a while it
 >>appeared that the case was debunked. Now, there is a counter-
 >>solution backed up by the science of geometry. It gives the
 >>Abydos scene legitimacy. An important sighting, and no need to
 >>fill out a questionnaire. You can experience it yourselves.

 >>http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/abyhelic.htm

 >A helicopter on the temple at Abydos? Put there by whom? United
 >Technologies, Inc. Or maybe it was the Greeks who put it up
 >there and their secret writings were stolen by Da Vinci and
 >later by Sikorsky.

I really don't know how to comment on your remarks here.

 >My challenge at the time was for the advocates to explain how
 >this stylized item was a helicopter. Did they understand the
 >context of the position of the item which looked to them like a
 >helicopter. So far the answers have been none.

What advocates? I haven't seen many. There was some interest,
which quickly vanished after Egyptologists explained the scene
away as the so called palimpsest. However, Hoagland did observe
correctly that the extraordinary aspect of the scene is that it
is a scene. There is more than one object, four figures
altogether, which give one impression of being technological
craft. This fourfold apparition is not likely to happen
accidentally. This was exactly what struck me as attention-
worthy, too.

 >Jiri, your site is having all kinds of trouble. I haven't been
 >able to access it fully.

Not long ago, I paid Geocities for a full service, no download
limit web account. To my surprise, after several days, the
account was returned to being the limited free version, and my
credit card was reimbursed. Strange? I am used to strange
things going on, and did not bother to penetrate this particular
mystery. It reminds me of the troubles I had with the French
consulate here in Vancouver, and the Paris museum of Man (musee
de l'homme). If you like, read:

http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/silence.
htm

 >The work "debunker" is emotionally charged in ufology. However,
 >for every debunker there are 50 bunk-generators. They work over
 >time to produce a steady stream of bunk piled upon bunk and
 >fertilized by high grade BS. I would say every decade since 1960
 >has seen bunk-generation increase by an order of magnitude. The
 >universe, by many theories is thought to be expanding. Ufology
 >will have to expand several time faster than the universe to
 >encompass all the bunk that is being generated at the current
 >rate.

So, is my work bunk? Or is it an important discovery in the area
of history of mathematics? For starters, did you look at it that
way?

Jiri Mruzek







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                          Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:58:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:16:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Rogers


 >From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:09:09 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:53:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:28:07 +0100
 >>>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>>Now prove ET's are fakes -

 >>>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

 >>>Taken with IR camera in daylight. Various Listers asked me to
 >>>get this photo so they could de bunk me. I'm glad I could oblige
 >>>them at last after doing constant videoing for weeks.

 >>I still don't get why the onus is on me to disprove that this is
 >>an alien. Disregarding the fact that this photograph is
 >>particularly lame... I mean, is there _anyone_ who sees an alien
 >>in this picture? I have five people in my apartment right now
 >>looking at this and none of us can see an alien.

 >The Gray's head is within the red circle and is facing left-
 >forward. It's body is only partially visible ( very misty,
 >almost invisible ). You may like to know that since posting this
 >information that the camera position is under observation by an
 >ET group - sensed but not yet seen. As I do not have another
 >camera, I can't do the same thing.

 >The plot thickens

So you sense that aliens are now staking out the camera
position? How do you know they're not putting off that vibe to
trick you into believing that?


Ian Rogers







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                   Re: UFO Seen In Tibet In 1661? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:16:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:18:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Seen In Tibet In 1661? - Groff

:
:
:
:
:
Subject: Re: UFO Seen In Tibet In 1661?


 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:31:00 +0100 (BST)
 >Subject: UFO Seen In Tibet In 1661?

<snip>

 >The source quoted is the book "Los Extraterrestres Existen"
 >by Gianni Lucarini. This book is unknown to me.

LUCARINI, Gianni
Los extraterrestres existen
Barcelona: A.T.E., 1976.- 242 p

You can find this book at www.abebooks.com. Just do a search on
the title and you will find two sellers in Madrid. Even though
the author's name is Italian I believe the book is in Spanish.
Perhaps there are those on this List that might be willing to
translate it.


Terry
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/








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                  Re: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <FadedDiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:05:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:21:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg - Connors


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:06:55 -0700
 >Subject: Ivan Sanderson & Kecksberg

 >Does anyone have (or know where to get) Ivan Sanderson's
 >original work on the 1965 Kecksberg object, including his
 >witness interviews and trajectory calculation? If so, please
 >e-mail me.


Hi David,

Try:

www.amphilsoc.org/library/mole/s.htm

Some of his papers are held there.


Wendy Connors








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                   Re: The Greatest Mystery of All - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:18:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:30:58 -0400
Subject: Re: The Greatest Mystery of All - Hall


 >From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:54:55 -0400
 >Subject: The Greatest Mystery of All

 >The Greatest Mystery of All: Somehow, the U.S. Air Force Always
 >Seemed to Lose the Best UFO Evidence

 >LWB Note: Having just received a copy of the following e-comment
 >from researcher W. Todd Zechel responding to columnist Billy
 >Cox's article in Florida Today for May 20, 2003 - see:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m29-001.shtml

 >I've sought and received his permission to post it on UFO
 >UpDates

 >Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to determine if Cooper
 >means well but has important memory lapses, or if he just heard
 >scuttlebutt about the incident filmed by the two Edwards
 >cinetheodolite operators. It seems clear, however, that Cooper's
 >description of a central role in the tracking camera filming or
 >shipment thereof is highly embellished, if not fantasized.

 >About the only thing which seems certain is that the Air Force's
 >own records from the National Archives show that the UFO was in
 >view for 15 to 25 minutes and that the telescopic tracking
 >camera was rolling most of this time; yet the Air Force claimed
 >to have only about 20 seconds of film (40 frames, shot at two
 >frames per second). If in fact the incident involved the
 >sighting and filming of a weather balloon, as the Air Force
 >subsequently contended (as does Oberg), why did it retain only
 >40 frames of film, which surviving cameraman Bittick says is
 >footage from when they were "clearing the camera"?

 >The original Edwards investigation labeled the sighting an
 >"unknown," a conclusion seconded by the 4602nd [Intelligence]
 >Squadron at Ent AFB. But when the Pentagon Air Force hierarchy
 >found out about Edward's candor about the incident, Project Blue
 >Book was ordered to debunk it; and PBB chief Capt. Gregory
 >concocted the "weather balloon" identification without
 >consulting any of those involved in the sighting at Edwards,
 >such as Gettys or Bittick.

 >Back in 1978 I came across at least one proof sheet of frames
 >from the the Edwards incident in a room at the National Archives
 >supposedly not involved with Blue Book audio-visual materials.
 >In these pics, one could clearly see a "saucer" hovering in the
 >theodolite crosshairs. I recall thinking at the time that this
 >was proof Dr. James E. McDonald was correct when he testified
 >[in a congressional hearing] about the Edwards incident, about
 >which the Air Force claimed at the time to have no records --
 >making McDonald look like a liar.

 >Yet, one has to be careful how this case is presented today.
 >Cooper has proved his bravery repeatedly; but, unfortunately,
 >what he says about the incident cannot be trusted. And the
 >surviving cameraman, Bittick, understandably does not want to
 >take on the entire military political machine. He obviously has
 >very little to gain except a great deal of unwanted attention
 >from dozens of UFOlogical wizards eager to exploit his testimony
 >(when I spoke with the Edwards historian some time ago, he said
 >he'd received dozens of phone calls from UFO buffs after
 >Cooper's memoir, "Leap of Faith," was published but had no
 >knowledge of the incident Cooper described in the book) -- while
 >at the same time fearing the mighty wrath of whatever government
 >force is behind the UFO cover-up.

 >Walter Todd Zechel --
 >Director of Operations
 >Associated Investigators Group

Although I generally agree with Todd's portrayal of the
Cooper/Edwrads AFB case, I find it more than a little bit
amusing (a) that he now acknowledges what he once vehemently
denied, that his real first name is Walter; and (b) that he
always manages to have some imposing sounding title like
"Director of Operations" for AIG. But when asked to reveal who
and what AIG is in any detail, nada!

Tell us who the members and officers are of the so-called
"Asociated Investigators Group," Todd [or Larry.]


  - Dick








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                   Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:23:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:38:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Bueche


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:28:36 -0300
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:30:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Friedman

 ><snip>

 >There are footprints..... I really don't expect they would leave
 >care packages for earthlings or gold plated business cards.

<snip>

 >I for one would be totally astonished if a technologically
 >advanced civilization did NOT have advancement in biology,
 >telepathy, the world of the spirit, reincarnation etc. They
 >would study aging and learn to control it and live a long time,
 >have great computers and wisdom..

 >The notion that they would only be concerned with advanced nuts
 >and bolts technology seems absurd to me. Denial of 3-D reality
 >in the physical trace cases seems equally absurd.

Fair enough, and thank you for your acknowledgement that
escoteric concepts about the nature of the world are probably
not merely an idea unique to the human mind.

But I have no need to "deny" the physical traces. There simply
aren't any. Not a single gram. Footprints aren't alien
artifacts. Pajamas put on backwards aren't alien artifacts.
Burnt earth isn't an alien artifact (though possibly some kind
of unique energy signature may be!). I'm trying to make the
distinction clear because if I did not make the distinction
clear I would be undercutting the very important and noble work
done by people like yourself and many others who have for
decades meticulously recorded and studied things which were
obviously affected by the "aliens" or their vehicles. And I do
not want to undercut that documentation, which has gone a long
way towards proving that all the history of strange flying craft
can't be chalked up to being advanced military planes from
today.

What I am asking is to examine the expectation that because
something which was already here was affected by something, that
the alien "something" also is therefore as material as our
computers are.

Here's what I'd argue: Are aliens so incredibly neat and precise
that in fifty years they have never accidentally left something,
anything at all, behind? That would stagger the mind, to even
conceive that neatness accounts for the entire absense of any
physical traces which are not simply things which are already
present which have been touched in some way.

I'm not only complaining that the search for artifacts left
behind has been fruitless (though I think that fruitlessness is
why some of the general public disregards these efforts). I'd
also argue that despite our having populized nearly the entire
land of the earth, we've never run across an alien building
either. Never. Why? If they're materially here on earth, why
haven't we run across them?

"They're in the sky," "they're deep underground," "they're under
the ocean," "they're in Antarctica" are all sound like the
plaintiff cries of people who want to be able to explain why
there's no physical trace of them, but can't. The common theme
is "they're somewhere else." Indeed. So look at that
commonality, and then look at the absence of physical remnants,
and consider that 2+2 might indeed equal 4.

Now I'm not saying I'm 100% sure that they're only physical for
a few minutes while they're abducting someone, I'm just giving
you my theory (mine in the sense that it is a theory that I
subscribe to, not that I came up with it).

Anyhow, I read that you will be away for awhile so I'll wait til
you're back. Have a good - well I hope it is a vacation, but
wherever.









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                   Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:01:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:52:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - White


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:28:36 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

<snip>

 >>Even implants, if you beleive those bits of tissue are created by
 >>aliens, are reported to be made out of a person's own flesh -- At
 >>least, the physical ones are;

I thought the couple of implants analyzed by NIDS were ferrous
material.  How would Dr. Mack explain that?


Eleanor White








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                        Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 04:25:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:57:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Rods Exposed - Stevenson


 >From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:09:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:30:53 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Rods Exposed

<snip>

 >>Given the jumble of boxy looking hot things in close proximity,
 >>and the use of an infrared camera, by best guess is a bag full
 >>of "goldfish" cartons, each containing a different kind of
 >>Chinese food still hot from the take-out counter. The largest
 >>one might contain steamed rice - if I'm on to something here.

 >You saw that, too?! Geez, for a minute there I thought I was
 >just staring at it for too long. I couldn't see the alien, so I
 >started looking for Waldo.


For those who can't see the alien gray on the large picture
here is a blow up with it outlined:

http://www.colsweb.com/pathet.gif

I did examine the area in normal vision where the gray ET face
was and there wasn't anything square there and neither was the
gray ET's head there either. The square thing and the ET head
was not there later either. No idea why! Maybe the IR ET gray
ate that bag of IR steamed rice then walked off :-)

There's strange beings hereabouts and it's as well I can't see
them with normal vision. Ignorance is bless, yes? Thanks
for debunking the picture. I can rest easy in my bed now!

If you find Waldo then let me know as he owes me a bag of
chips (french fries).

col








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                   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:03:47 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:01:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - Velez


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:32:55 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

<snip>

Hi Steve,

You wrote:

 >I certainly wouldn't want to detract from the petition efforts
 >that are underway, and it's certainly an effort that can help to
 >bring people together in fighting the 'good fight'. You've named
 >one witness that should be included in such hearings, and
 >perhaps we should try to create a list. Given the weight of a
 >good list of (pre-vetted) witnesses, we could proceed with
 >approaching sympathetic Members who could support a probe.

It would mean poaching Greer's disclosure project witnesses. I
don't have a problem with that. If good candidates could be
identified, they could be contacted and asked if they'd be
willing to participate.

Has anyone taken the time to evaluate the witnesses in terms of
which ones present the strongest cases? John Callahan is one,
who else? Maybe Victor can be helpful here. He has made a
careful study of the witnesses and the testimony. Maybe he can
suggest a few good candidates that we can contact and start
with. Hey, I'm game if you are. Let's see what we can come up
with.

Just an observation/opinion if I may:

This is the kind of thing that Stephen Bassett 'should be' doing
and that CFI could pump well spent money and resources into.
And... I still say that we need to hear from John Alexander who
was a principle in trying to secure congressional hearings most
recently. We need to hear the story in it's entirety about how
far they had gotten and if there is still _any_ possibility of
reviving those original negotiations.

Victor? Are you following this? Can you chime in please? You
wanted to make something happen. Here's an opportunity to get
the ball rolling on a worthy project. Screw Greer. Who needs
him. My daddy always told me that if you want something done
'right,' you need to do it yourself. What do you say?

Let's have a go at it Steve. I'll do what I can from this end.
We might end up surprising ourselves and coming up with a few
solid people/witnesses. Errol's 'Strange Days... Indeed' program
can be a bully pulpit if needed. We are not entirely without
where with all or willing people.


Regards,

John Velez







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              Re: Sci-Fi Channel To Broadcast 'Out Of The Blue'

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:02:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:07:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Channel To Broadcast 'Out Of The Blue'


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:12:33 -0400
 >Subject: Sci-Fi Channel Broadcast Of 'Out Of The Blue'

 >[This is the text from a press release issued by the Sci-Fi
 >Channel this week.]

 >May 27, 2003

 >Are We Alone?

 >SCI FI Channel Premieres Award-winning Documentary 'Out of the
 >Blue,' Narrated by Peter Coyote, On June 24

 >Filmmakers James Fox, Tim Coleman and Boris Zubov take an
 >explosive look at the legitimacy of the UFO phenomenon in the
 >award-winning, feature-length documentary Out of the Blue. For
 >the first time, high-ranking military and government personnel
 >go on record saying that certain unidentified flying objects
 >could in fact be of extraterrestrial origin. Narrated by Peter
 >Coyote, Out of the Blue premieres Tuesday, June 24 @ 9 p.m.
 >ET/PT exclusively on SCI FI Channel as part of its 'Tuesday
 >Declassified' primetime block.

Folks:

I am a friend of Tim Coleman and have received, from him, a copy
of  "Out Of The Blue" documentary. It is one of the best I have
ever watched, too. Fox, Coleman and Zubov did a great job and I
strongly recommend the video to anyone really interested in the
"whys" of the UFO phenomena.

Congratulations for the god work, Tim. Look forward to hearing
from you about new material on Brazilian cases.


A. J. Gevaerd







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               Re: Nick Redfern On 'Strange Secrets' - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:05:26 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:10:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Redfern On 'Strange Secrets' - Gevaerd


 >From: Eustaquio Anddrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:53:04 -0300
 >Subject: Nick Redfern On 'Strange Secrets'

 >Source: Steamshovel Press

 >May 23 2003

 >http://www.steamshovelpress.com/latestword14.html

 >Nick Redfern emigrated to the USA to live in 2001. Nick's new
 >book, Strange Secrets: Real Government Files on the Unknown (co-
 >written with British author Andy Roberts), is just about to be
 >published by Simon & Schuster. We speak with him about the book
 >and its revelations linking the world of British, American and
 >Russian Intelligence with that of the unexplained.

 >Q: What, broadly, is Strange Secrets about?

 >A: Essentially, the book is an examination of official files
 >created from the 19th Century to the present day and shows the
 >way in which various Intelligence agencies, such as the CIA,
 >MI5, the US Defence Intelligence Agency and former KGB - among
 >numerous others - have investigated unexplained phenomena and
 >unsolved mysteries and have collated what might be termed real-
 >life X-Files.

<snip>


Friends.

Nick Redfern was one of the finest presenters at the 3rd
Northeast UFO & Paranormal Conference, held in Seattle last
weekend. I attended the conference as well, speaking about UFOs
in Brazil and exposing the famous hoax debated here months ago.

I congratulate Nick for his excellent work in Ufology and for
keep bringing it up details of the absurd cover-up policy still
going on in most of the world, specially in the U.S.


A. J. Gevaerd







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                   Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:22:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:16:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01 - White


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:32:55 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:07:01 -0300
 >>Subject: Re: Disclosure Dialogue #01-01

<snip>

 >... and the first "Congreesional Briefing" event, sponsored by CSETI
 >and Dr. Greer, caused all interest to dry up.

There are two _separate_ issues here:

1. Some Listers who are long term researchers do not like things
Dr. Greer has done in his disclosure efforts.

2. A group of former government and military employees held a
press conference describing what they knew about UFOs.

_Ignoring_ issue #1 for the moment, can someone explain why a
group of former government and military employees describing
what they knew about UFOs "caused all interest to dry up"? It
would seem that this would "whet the appetite" of both the
public and Congress for more information. It would show Congress
that there are people in the know who are not afraid to testify.
_Ignoring_ issue #1.


Eleanor White








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               The WHY? Files - Pilots Sightings/St Petersburg

From: Geoff Richardson <fastdog@fastdog.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:10:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:17:45 -0400
Subject: The WHY? Files - Pilots Sightings/St Petersburg


On the evening of 19th February 1997 a number of anomalous
objects were seen in the skies over St. Petersburg (Russia) -
see : "The St. Petersburg Incident" - including video file.

"Pilots' Sightings" - some significant UFO sightings including
audio files of pilots describing their experiences and actual
recording of UFO sighting report being made to Air Traffic
Control.

The WHY? Files - http://www.thewhyfiles.co.uk


Geoff Richardson







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                   Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:42:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:20:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Rogers


 >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:28:36 -0300
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >>From: Will Bueche <willb3d@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:42:09 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:48:29 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Chat With Dr. John E. Mack - Maccabee

<snip>

 >>At the risk of sounding like a "parroting acolyte" (as
 >>Psychology Today called me):

 >>That's not true at all.

 >>Just because something is not physical does not mean it is an
 >>internally generated fantasy. That's entirely erroneous - but
 >>that sort of error is to be expected in this culture. My, I do
 >>sound like a parroting acolyte.

 >>That's Mack's entire point. That experiences which may not be
 >>physical can still be external, intelligent, and living
 >>"provokers," and can interact with us in ways which seem
 >>material, but which don't leave any physical traces behind
 >>because they simply aren't the same sort of material which we
 >>are.

 >>The material evidence which is left behind by alien encounters,
 >>far from being alien material, is simply things which are
 >>ALREADY PRESENT in our reality, which have been affected in some
 >>way. I.e., some may be earth burnt or marked, reflected light
 >>passes into the lens of a camera in the case of UFO photos. But
 >>nothing is ever left behind. Even implants, if you beleive those
 >>bits of tissue are created by aliens, are reported to be made
 >>out of a person's own flesh -- At least, the physical ones are;
 >>it is imperitive to note that energy healers, Reiki people, say
 >>they perceive implants which are not physical at all but which
 >>are as apparent to them as chakras. Which again points to the
 >>conclusion that the aliens are not material in the same sense
 >>that we are material - but are very real.

 >>>From the aliens' perspective, the aliens are material. But from
 >>>our perspective, they aren't - you could search the world over
 >>>and you wouldn't find them, except during those transitory
 >>>moments when they "crossover" as Dr Mack calls it. It's all
 >>>relative.

 >>That does not mean they are mental fantasies.

I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Friedman on this one.

While I am certainly not a believer in UFOs, there is plenty of
evidence supporting that this is indeed a physical phenomenon.

Getting into theories of other realities and transitory
encounters is very interesting, but from another point of view,
it seems like a pat way of saying no physical evidence is
necessary to prove all of these things are actually taking
place. I think it is also a slap in the face of those people,
alien abductees especially, who have experienced these kinds of
encounters and _do_ have the physical evidence to back them up.

And I'm not sure the opinions of Reiki energy healers qualify as
adequate proof to point to your stated conclusions. Of course,
that's just my opinion.


Ian Rogers








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 31

                             UFO ROUNDUP Delayed

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:23:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:21:57 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP Delayed


Joseph Trainor recently moved to new premises and while the move
went okay his computer has stopped working.

The computer is being tested to see if it can be repaired.

If the computer cannot be repaired it will be some time before
we see another issue of the bulletin as Joseph cannot afford a
new one, especially after the trip back east to see his sick
mother.

Please do not e-mail him as he cannot reply at the moment. I
will post updates as and when they become available.

Regards,


E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   May > May 31

              Re: Sci-Fi Channel To Broadcast 'Out Of The Blue'

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:40:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:23:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Channel To Broadcast 'Out Of The Blue'


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:12:33 -0400
 >Subject: Sci-Fi Channel Broadcast Of 'Out Of The Blue'

 >[This is the text from a press release issued by the Sci-Fi
 >Channel this week.]

 >May 27, 2003

 >Are We Alone?

 >SCI FI Channel Premieres Award-winning Documentary 'Out of the
 >Blue,' Narrated by Peter Coyote, On June 24

Might the premier date of June 24, 2003, have been chosen (at
least in part) because it is the 56th anniversary of Kenneth
Arnold's June 24, 1947 sighting?