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   Oct

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Oct 2003

  Oct 1:

   Graham Birdsall - Center for Psychology & Social Change [11]
   Six Unexpalined Encounters - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [306]
   The Drake Equation Revisited: Part I - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [232]
   Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics - Greg Boone [46]
   Alpha Centauri Questions - Greg Boone [15]
   Nose Bleeds, Scoop Marks & Vivid Dreams - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [202]
   UFO Reported To WPAFB: Franklin, OH - 9/27/03 - Kenny Young [63]
   Re: Airdie, Alberta - August 23, 2003 - Cammack - Diana Cammack [6]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [33]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [21]
   Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [11]
   Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Carr - Scott C. Carr [11]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [48]
   Sci Fi Channel To Air Kecksburg Special - Steven Kaeser [63]
   Secrecy News - 09/30/03 - Steven Aftergood [115]
   US Presidential Contender Clark Chats Science? - Greg Boone [38]
   Cattle Mutilations Continue & Old UFO Report Update - Terry W. Colvin
   [90]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 37 - John Hayes [526]
   Presidential Candidate Offers Faith In Time Travel - Kenny Young [102]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [31]
   Re: Photograph Copyrighted By Dr Gary Levine - - Tom Benson [6]
   Filer's Files #40 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [502]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Jacobson - Eric Jacobson [16]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [18]
   PRA - Could We Ever Be Time Lords? - John Auchtl [157]
   Re: OSI Reports In Project Bluebook Archives? - - Bruce Maccabee [14]
   Cold Fusion Update - Terry Blanton [111]
   Review: Human Devolution By Michael Cremo - Mac Tonnies [70]
   Sighting Reports From HBCC UFO - 09-30-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [119]
   Re: CCCRN News: Update - Steelman, Saskatchewan - Paul Anderson [38]
   Secrecy News -- 10/01/03 - Steven Aftergood [113]
   Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2003 - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [9]
   Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [17]
   Re: Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hatch - Larry Hatch [9]
   Copyright On UFO Photographs? - Chris Parr [10]
   RIP GWB - Philip Mantle [8]
   Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Stanford - Ray Stanford [6]

  Oct 2:

   Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Christol - Michael Christol [10]
   Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is? - Greg Bppne [35]
   Re: Ufology And Money - Boone - Greg Boone [82]
   Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming - Lan Fleming [15]
   Re: Project Bluebook - Chester - Keith Chester [13]
   Yet Another New Image Of The Face On Mars - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gates - Robert Gates [6]
   Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hatch - Larry Hatch [41]
   Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [4]
   Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson
   [10]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman - Stanton T. Friedman [21]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [14]
   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [8]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Koch - Joachim Koch [19]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [70]
   Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Smith - James Smith [17]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [15]
   Life In The Goldilocks Zone - Ray Stanford [5]
   Amazing Photo! - Ray Stanford [5]

  Oct 3:

   Secrecy News -- 10/02/03 - Steven Aftergood [123]
   Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Smith - James Smith [19]
   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford - Ray Stanford [38]
   Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Harrison - Diane Harrison [23]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet - Noel Herbiet [16]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet - Noel Herbiet [21]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [19]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet - Noel Herbiet [16]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [61]
   Minnesota 09-27-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [40]
   Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming - Lan Fleming [69]
   New Sightings Map For Central America - Larry Hatch [17]
   Spanish Filmmaker Goes UFO - Scott Corrales [23]
   Luminous Object in the Gulf of Venezuela - Scott Corrales [34]
   Reach Out And Touch The Extraterrestrial - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas
   [78]
   Secrecy News -- 10/03/03 - Steven Aftergood [125]
   Strange Object Lights Up Sky Over Alberta - Sheyllah Salles F. Pires
   [12]

  Oct 4:

   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [53]
   Special Declassified Documents? - Thierry Jonnaert [46]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [82]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Ootischenia Castlegar British Columbia - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [59]
   On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting? - Ralph Howard [20]
   Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [10]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Rogers - Ian Rogers [93]

  Oct 5:

   Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [14]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman - Stan Friedman [42]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman - Stan Friedman [17]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Hatch - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Christol - Michael Christol [18]
   Re: On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting? - - Michael Christol
   [25]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [49]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [29]
   News Items For UFO Magazine UK - Philip Mantle [8]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [70]
   Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [171]
   The Sisyphus Complex - Greg Boone [14]
   Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [10]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [26]
   09-12-03 - Vancouver, British Columbia - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [31]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]
   BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Eric Morris [30]

  Oct 6:

   Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [31]
   Re: Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out - Ledger - Don Ledger [9]
   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford - Ray Stanford [111]
   Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming - Lan Fleming [56]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Boone - Greg Boone [40]
   Shag Harbour - Jan Aldrich [52]
   Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Ledger - Don Ledger [12]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   Re: BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Pope - Nick Pope [4]
   Research Data Of Saucer-Buster Finds Home At Texas - Sheyllah Salles F.
   Pires [43]
   RAWIN Balloon Story - Greg Boone [28]
   Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Greg Boone [97]
   TNO 2001 KX76 - Jan Aldrich [14]
   Re: BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Hale - Roy Hale [13]
   Great Efforts - Thierry Jonnaert [65]
   Classic Radar-Visual Case On-Line - Terry W. Colvin [46]
   Re: Copyright On UFO Photographs? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents - Eustaquio Andrea
   Patounas [26]
   Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Proof Of UFO Sighting Caught On Camera - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [49]
   Avebury Balloon Hoax - Roy Hale [18]
   UFO Pandemonium Broke Out 30 Years Ago - Sheyllah Salles F. Pires [53]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [67]
   Pascagoula Audio Files - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [1]
   The Raelians Revealed - Nick Balaskas [14]

  Oct 7:

   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone - Greg Boone [4]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Hatch - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone - Greg Boone [74]
   Math Vs. Moore On Roswell - David Rudiak [173]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford - Ray Stanford [27]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - Neil Morris [58]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [16]
   Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - John Hayes [605]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [9]
   Re: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Greg Boone [57]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford - Ray Stanford [28]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Velez - John Velez [12]
   Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents - Joachim Koch [26]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - David Rudiak [115]

  Oct 8:

   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [22]
   'Magnificent Obsessions' Air-Date Changed - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [12]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Pope - Nick Pope [28]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone - Greg Boone [42]
   Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Greg Boone [7]
   Technology Madness And Hope - UFO UpDates - Toronto [86]
   Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents - Jim Deardorff [6]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]
   Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Connors - Wendy Connors [18]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones - Sean Jones [44]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones - Sean Jones [44]
   Secrecy News -- 10/08/03 - Steven Aftergood [161]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - Neil Morris [146]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Ledger - Don Ledger [44]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones - Sean Jones [44]

  Oct 9:

   Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [5]
   Did Meteorites Punch Swamp Holes - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [47]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman - Edward Gehrman [99]

  Oct 10:

   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [43]
   Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Stanford - Ray Stanford [37]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Koch - Joachim Koch [52]
   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford - Ray Stanford [22]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Shough - Martin Shough [33]
   Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [9]
   Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents - Joachim Koch [7]
   Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Greg Boone [9]
   Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Rimmer - John Rimmer [48]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Filer's Files #41 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [514]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [48]
   Re: Filer's Files #41 -- 2003 - Lemire - Todd Lemire [17]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [18]
   Re: Technology Madness And Hope - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [55]
   Spielberg has 'Nine Lives' - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [18]
   Re: Technology Madness And Hope - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [55]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [18]
   Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [30]
   Kewanee Illinois - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [94]
   Secrecy News -- 10/09/03 - Steven Aftergood [126]

  Oct 9:

   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman - Edward Gehrman [99]

  Oct 8:

   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]

  Oct 10:

   Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford - Ray Stanford [14]
   Re: Did Meteorites Punch Swamp Holes - Stanford - Ray Stanford [16]
   BUFORA 40th Anniversary Conference - Judith Jaafar - BUFORA [17]
   Andros Island Case? - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [7]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [17]
   Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [13]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Cammack - Diana Cammack [39]
   How Space Activities Impact Society? - Diana Cammack [4]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [15]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [41]
   Re: Pascagoula Tape - Connors - Wendy Connors [70]
   Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Sandow - Greg Sandow [44]
   Observers Question UFO Experience - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [63]
   Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas
   [34]
   Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [37]
   Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [37]
   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [15]

  Oct 8:

   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]

  Oct 11:

   Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [10]

  Oct 8:

   Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors - Wendy Connors [17]

  Oct 11:

   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [91]
   Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [47]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hayes - John Hayes [15]
   Eltanin Object [was Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 - Larry Hatch [24]
   Re: Andros Island Case? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [4]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Mac Tonnies [10]
   Sitchin Critique - Terry W. Colvin [34]
   Taped A Strange Object - Linda Moore <address removed> [12]
   Re: Kewanee Illinois - Stanford - Ray Stanford [56]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [20]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [35]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Steve Kaeser [19]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Larry Hatch [8]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - GT Mccoy [11]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Lan Fleming [24]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [6]
   Robotic Device In Pinetamare Italy? - Terry W. Colvin [88]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton - Dave Morton [29]

  Oct 8:

   Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents - Jim Deardorff [6]

  Oct 12:

   Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [5]
   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - Jerome Clark [23]
   2 Reports From HBCC UFO - 10-11-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [41]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [26]
   FIRSTHUMCAT - Luis R. Gonzalez [36]
   Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [56]
   Mysterious Phenomenon in the D.C. Area! - Ray Stanford [29]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Don Ledger [12]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Ray Stanford [12]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Don Ledger [12]

  Oct 13:

   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Alfred Lehmberg [19]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [130]
   Remote Viewing? - Thierry Jonnaert [23]
   Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Philip Mantle [14]
   Close Encounter In Shag Harbour - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [61]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - Neil Morris [176]
   The Truth & the Proof Are Out There - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [118]

  Oct 14:

   Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Ledger - Don Ledger [3]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [13]
   Something Brewing In Camarillo, California - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [17]
   Re: Amazing Photo! - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [28]
   Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [75]
   Antonio Huneeus? - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   1955 Planes Sent After 'Objects' in Southern Ohio - Kenny Young [29]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [19]

  Oct 12:

   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Don Ledger [12]

  Oct 13:

   Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Philip Mantle [14]

  Oct 14:

   Secrecy News -- 10/14/03 - Steven Aftergood [109]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Larry Hatch [13]
   SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange - Steve Kaeser [47]
   State-Sponsored Denial - Larry W. Bryant [69]

  Oct 15:

   An Interview With John A. Keel - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [298]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton - Dave Morton [5]
   Re: Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas
   [54]
   Terry Hansen's Corso Critique - Terry W. Colvin [56]
   Other Things About Corso And His Book - Terry W. Colvin [87]
   Tom Mahood's Corso Critique - Terry W. Colvin [138]
   Greg Sandow's Corso Critique - Terry W. Colvin [233]
   Who's Monkeying With Colonel Corso's Book? - Terry W. Colvin [130]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [235]
   Re: Something Brewing In Camarillo, California - - Terry Groff [27]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [53]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [24]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - Neil Morris [50]
   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Alfred Lehmberg [18]
   Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [23]
   UFO Expert Comes To Brevard - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [145]
   Woman Says She Captured UFO On Tape - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [31]

  Oct 16:

   Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Baiata - Maurizio Baiata [8]
   CCCRN News: Update - Abbotsford, BC Formation - Paul Anderson [35]

  Oct 17:

   Re: Tom Mahood's Corso Critique - Baiata - Maurizio Baiata [25]
   Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Ball Lightning Forum - No. 4 - Terry W. Colvin [169]
   UFOs As Big As A Battleship - Terry W. Colvin [131]
   Filer's Files #42 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [556]
   Quantum Entanglement & Simultaneity - Terry W. Colvin [143]
   Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! - Terry W. Colvin [217]
   Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II - Terry W. Colvin [287]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [46]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [39]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [12]
   CI: Manned Chinese Space Mission Successful - Mac Tonnies [39]
   UFO Sighting - Hamilton, Ohio 10-15-03 - Kenny Young [51]
   UFO Video Out of This World - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [42]
   The Windmills May Be Weakening - Gavin McLeod [29]
   ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Sheryl Gottschall [127]
   Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery - Kenny Young [60]
   UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [27]
   UFO Video Footage Wanted - Philip Mantle [19]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [163]
   Re: The Windmills May Be Weakening - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [54]
   Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - Terry W. Colvin [261]
   UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [27]

  Oct 16:

   Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Baiata - Maurizio Baiata [8]

  Oct 18:

   UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Terry W. Colvin [275]
   Curious Utterances Of Vatican's Monsignor Balducci - Terry W. Colvin
   [172]
   Confirmation Of Important U.S. Naval UFO Sighting - Terry W. Colvin
   [268]
   Two Letters From FSR Consultant Salvador Freixedo - Terry W. Colvin
   [244]
   A Gigantic 'Cigar' Over the Atlantic In 1963 - Terry W. Colvin [398]
   Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle - 13 March - Terry W. Colvin
   [176]
   Phoenix Lights Tag: "Re: Welcome Back!" - Terry W. Colvin [56]
   Phoenix Lights + Frances Emma Barwood - Terry W. Colvin [103]
   Secrecy News -- 10/17/03 - Steven Aftergood [126]
   Montana UFO 10-15-03 - Caroline Eikenberry [36]
   '78 Encounter of Boeing 727 & Huge 'Cigar' Over - Terry W. Colvin [227]
   FOTOCAT News October 2003 - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [72]

  Oct 13:

   Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says - - Alfred Lehmberg [19]

  Oct 18:

   What Wesley Clark Really Said About Time Travel - Grant Cameron [44]
   Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Burns - Max Burns [11]
   Remote Viewers Teaming Up With Abductees? - Eleanor White [14]
   Re: Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery - - Eleanor White [14]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [39]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates - Robert Gates [26]
   The Phoenix Lights - Geoff Richardson [5]
   FOTOCAT News October 2003 - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [72]
   UFO Still Puzzles 30 Years Later - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [135]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [42]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton - Dave Morton [19]
   Re: The Phoenix Lights - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [3]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: Antonio Huneeus? - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]

  Oct 12:

   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [26]

  Oct 18:

   Re: Remote Viewing? - Hall - Richard Hall [6]

  Oct 16:

   CCCRN News: Update - Abbotsford, BC Formation - Paul Anderson [35]

  Oct 18:

   Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Burns - Max Burns [11]
   Re: Antonio Huneeus? - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]
   Re: Antonio Huneeus? - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]

  Oct 17:

   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [39]

  Oct 13:

   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [130]

  Oct 18:

   Re: The Phoenix Lights - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [3]

  Oct 19:

   Michigan Sighting - 10-16-03 - Todd Lemire [33]
   Re: Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle - - Bill Hamilton [5]
   A little Question - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [37]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [14]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [40]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [10]
   Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Harrison - Diane Harrison [100]
   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Christol - Michael Christol [4]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [180]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Don Ledger [6]
   Coyne Revisited - Kenny Young [138]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [10]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak - David Rudiak [97]

  Oct 20:

   Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates - Robert Gates [13]
   Strange Montana Light An Experiment - Chaz Stuart [37]
   Submissions For UFO Magazine UK - Philip Mantle [26]
   New Animal Deaths Reinforce 'Chupacabras' - Scott Corrales [62]
   Mind Control? - Joe McGonagle [23]
   Re: A Little Question - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [13]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [55]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Steven Kaeser [13]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - John Auchtl [17]
   Re: A Little Question - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: A little Question - Cammack - Diana Cammack [9]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [13]

  Oct 21:

   Puerto Rico: New UFO Television Series - Scott Corrales [57]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [22]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [7]
   Re: A little Question - White - Eleanor White [13]
   Re: A little Question - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [14]
   Re: A little Question - Hatch - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: A little Question - Warren - Frank Warren [21]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [39]
   Re: Mind Control? - White - Eleanor White [191]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [18]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Thierry Jonnaert [14]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [22]
   Re: A little Question - Jacobson - Eric Jacobson [17]
   Re: A little Question - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [5]
   UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [11]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Terry W. Colvin [23]
   CI: A 'Puma' on Mars? - Mac Tonnies [59]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates - Robert Gates [15]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [20]
   25 Years Ago Today Valentich Vanished - Bill Chalker [276]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates - Robert Gates [27]
   Re: A little Question - Miller - Stuart Miller [32]
   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger - Don Ledger [20]
   Sci-Fi Channel Announces Possible Kecksberg Lawsuit - Steven Kaeser
   [84]

  Oct 14:

   SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange - Steve Kaeser [47]

  Oct 22:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 40 - John Hayes [586]
   Re: A little Question - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [9]
   Re: A little Question - Warren - Frank Warren [22]
   Re: A little Question - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [19]
   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Kimball - Paul Kimball [19]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Don Ledger [10]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Nick Pope [9]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [21]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [22]
   Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [162]
   Re: A Demonic Conspiracy - Christol - Michael Christol [25]
   Durham Residents & Officers Report UFO - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [22]
   UMMO-Like Cylinder - Mac Tonnies [35]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [24]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Josh Goldstein [10]
   Famed Abduction Therapist Constance Clear Dies - Louise A. Lowry [34]
   Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident - Bill Hamilton [272]
   Secrecy News - 10/22/03 - Steven Aftergood [133]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Pope - Nick Pope [21]
   Alien Abduction Study - Nick Pope [9]
   Probing The Minds Of Alien Abductees - UFO UpDates - Toronto [60]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [13]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [56]

  Oct 23:

   UFOs & NORAD - Bob Huff [16]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Filer's Files #43 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [761]
   Re: Mind Control? - White - Eleanor White [240]
   Re: A Demonic Conspiracy - Wenger - Eric Wenger [10]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - McCoy - GT McCoy [8]
   Re: Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II - - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: A little Question - Wenger - Eric Wenger [31]
   Re: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell - Lan Fleming [14]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie - Andrew Lavoie [44]
   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger - Don Ledger [26]

  Oct 22:

   Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [162]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [21]

  Oct 23:

   Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Larry Hatch [79]
   Re: A little Question - Wenger - Eric Wenger [31]
   How Many Crashes? - Sergej Dubrovin [5]
   Re: A little Question - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Hatch - Larry Hatch [17]
   Re: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell - Dave Morton [17]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Connors - Wendy Connors
   [24]
   Thank You - Philip Mantle [9]
   Re: UFOs & NORAD - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [137]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - Neil Morris [99]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone - Greg Boone ? [82]
   October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Richard Dolan [112]

  Oct 24:

   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [9]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [13]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [24]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [12]
   Re: Mind Control? - White - Eleanor White [29]
   Toronto Premiere Of 'Touched' - Center for Psychology & Social Change
   [140]
   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Kimball - Paul Kimball [20]
   Pine Bush NY UFOs And Paranormal - Vinny Polise [13]
   Gray Intruders In The Apartment? - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [53]
   Roswell & Other Issues - Dave Morton [68]
   'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - Larry Hatch [17]
   Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [88]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [15]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [18]
   Secrecy News -- 10/24/03 - Steven Aftergood [120]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Ledger - Don Ledger [3]
   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger - Don Ledger [24]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   NASA Releases Docs As A Result Of Sci Fi - UFO UpDates - Toronto [43]
   Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Morris - Neil Morris [12]
   Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [6]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Dolan - Richard Dolan [144]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - White - Eleanor White [29]

  Oct 25:

   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [13]
   Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [12]
   Re: 25 Years Ago Today Valentich Vanished - - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   New Roswell? - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Hatch - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Pope - Nick Pope [21]
   Sci-Fi Kecksberg Press Conference Materials - Steven Kaeser [728]
   Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Gottschall - Sheryl Gottschall [26]

  Oct 22:

   Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident - Bill Hamilton [272]

  Oct 23:

   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]

  Oct 25:

   Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Wendy Connors [24]
   Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [21]
   Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - Hayes - John Hayes [18]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [52]
   Re: Remote Viewing? - Koch - Joachim Koch [76]
   On Television And UFOs - Mike Woods [49]
   Re: Sci-Fi Kecksberg Press Conference Materials - - Terry Groff [6]
   Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - Ledger - Don Ledger [8]
   Durangoan Reports He Saw UFO - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [120]
   Petition To The United Nations Update - John Velez [53]

  Oct 21:

   Sci-Fi Channel Announces Possible Kecksberg Lawsuit - Steven Kaeser
   [84]

  Oct 25:

   Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Connors - Wendy Connors [34]
   International UFO Groups & Researchers - Philip Mantle [7]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Re: New Roswell? - White - Eleanor White [7]

  Oct 22:

   Durham Residents & Officers Report UFO - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [22]
   Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? - - Nick Pope [9]

  Oct 23:

   Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]

  Oct 26:

   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Oberg - James Oberg [36]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [28]
   Books For Sale - Sheryl Gottschall [7]
   Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [23]
   FSR: An Elk Snatched In Washington State - Terry W. Colvin [129]
   FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Terry W. Colvin [239]
   FSR: More Planets - Terry W. Colvin [68]
   FSR: Huge 'Alien Frogmen' in Central Asian Lakes - Terry W. Colvin
   [117]
   FSR: Confirmation Of Important U.S. Naval Sighting - Terry W. Colvin
   [262]
   FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Terry W. Colvin [482]
   FSR: Obituary Gordon Creighton Editor - Terry W. Colvin [75]
   Re: Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - - John Auchettl [28]

  Oct 27:

   Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Frola - Robert Frola [93]
   Re: On Television And UFOs - Pope - Nick Pope [102]
   Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [17]
   Re: New Roswell? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #30 - Alfred Lehmberg [180]
   New At Magonia - John Rimmer [9]
   Re: UFOs & NORAD - Ledger - Don Ledger [11]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Gates - Robert Gates [23]
   I Saw The Kecksberg UFO - Brian Vike [108]
   Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [44]
   Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [159]
   Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [10]
   Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris - Neil Morris [53]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [39]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Stanford - Ray Stanford [75]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Ray Stanford [12]
   UFO Debate - Nick Pope [15]
   Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Hatch - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Harney - John Harney [16]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Connors - Wendy Connors [42]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Hatch - Larry Hatch [11]
   Recent Sighting Reports From HBCC UFO - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [234]

  Oct 28:

   Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Ohio's New Crop Circle & recent UFO activity - Kenny Young [115]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [6]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Ledger - Don Ledger [24]
   Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Morton - Dave Morton [37]
   Re: How Many Crashes? - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [16]
   Sci Fi: We Got Secret UFO Files - UFO UpDates - Toronto [22]
   Guessing Game - UFO UpDates - Toronto [115]
   Kelly 'Alien Battle' Documentary Underway - Kenny Young [62]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [26]
   Grand Pyramid Design Project - UFO UpDates - Toronto [59]
   Secrecy News -- 10/28/03 - Steven Aftergood [129]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Stanford - Ray Stanford [17]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 41 - John Hayes [580]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Ledger - Don Ledger [10]
   Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Pope - Nick Pope [33]
   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [16]
   Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]

  Oct 29:

   Re: Kelly 'Alien Battle' Documentary Underway - - Michael Christol [32]
   Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Mac Tonnies [10]
   UFO Photographed Over Westerbork Radio Telescope - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [60]
   Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project - Moderator - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [13]
   Larry Hatch E-mail May Go Down - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [7]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [34]
   Re: Mind Control? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [6]
   Cosmos 96 - Jan Aldrich [28]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Groff - Terry Groff [5]
   Re: Venus vs Mars - Boone - Greg Boone [11]
   Secrecy News -- 10/29/03 - Steven Aftergood [111]
   Minnesota 'Cloud Walker' - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [39]
   Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar 11-08-003 - The Intruders Foundation [57]

  Oct 30:

   Re: Mind Control? - White - Eleanor White [17]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Harney - John Harney [20]
   Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [7]
   CI: Redundant Anomaly: Another Mystery in Cydonia - Mac Tonnies [43]
   Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Ed Gehrman [105]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [10]
   Squishy Ball Lightning - Terry W. Colvin [30]
   First Systematic Survey Of Paranormal - Psychic Towers Research
   Foundation [93]
   Re: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Carol Buckallew [65]
   Re: I Saw The Kecksberg UFO - Alex - Laurie Alex [16]
   Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Gottschall - Sheryl Gottschall
   [45]
   Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [24]
   New Brunswick UFO Encounter Explored - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [95]





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                               Graham Birdsall

From: Center for Psychology & Social Change <info@centerchange.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:40:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:57:45 -0400
Subject: Graham Birdsall


We are deeply saddened to learn of Graham's passing. He was a
great friend and supporter of our work, and a wonderful spirit.

We will miss him greatly, and we extend our love and condolences
to his family and friends.

John Mack
Maria Talcott
Will Bueche

on behalf of everyone at the
Center for Psychology & Social Change
PO Box 398080, Cambridge MA 02139
www.centerchange.org







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                         Six Unexpalined Encounters

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:48:26 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:36:27 -0400
Subject: Six Unexpalined Encounters


Source: Popular Mechanics

http://popularmechanics.com/science/space/1998/7/6_ufo_sightings/

Science - Space

Six Unexplained Encounters

These UFO sightings continue to defy science and the skeptics.

By Jim Wilson

Most sightings doesn'tSkeptics say it is easy to make a UFO
crash. Just poke it with a pointed question. Consider the
legendary Mantell incident in which a UFO supposedly shot down a
F-51 Mustang in broad daylight. Ask if any other military
aircraft were aloft over Kentucky that fateful Jan. 7, 1948
afternoon. You will discover that Capt. Thomas F. Mantell Jr., a
pilot in the Air National Guard, died after running out of
oxygen while chasing the Sun's reflection off a then-secret Navy
Skyhook balloon.

Radar has proven as fallible as the human eye, producing
headlines describing fleets of UFOs over Washington, D.C., Los
Angeles and sensitive military installations. In each case the
real invaders were overlapping radar signals, air masses of
differing densities, or flocks of birds that suddenly tightened
formation. Each anomaly can cause multiple targets or blimp-size
objects to appear one second and disappear the next.

At times, differences in interpreting the "facts" of a case can
make ufologists and skeptics seem like members of warring
tribes. There is, however, one point on which they agree: Most
UFO sightings are aircraft, planets or other natural phenomena.

Most sightings doesn't  mean all sightings. And while government
investigations have repeatedly assured the public that UFOs pose
no danger to national security, the very same reports also
detail dozens of sightings that neither science nor the skeptics
can adequately explain. Among these cases are six sightings that
are more puzzling now than when they were originally reported.

POPULAR MECHANICS offers no opinion on whether these mysterious
flying machines originate from secret military airstrips here on
Earth or spaceports somewhere "out there." We do, however, feel
comfortable making one prediction: When the shell of security
surrounding UFOs finally cracks, it will be because one of the
sightings we present here provided the wedge.

Asked to pick the most credible UFO photos ever taken,
ufologists select the simple black-and-white snapshots taken by
Paul Trent, a farmer in McMinnville, Ore.

The photos allegedly confirm a sighting that occurred on May 11,
1950, when an inverted pieplate flying machine was seen by
Trent, his father-in-law and his wife.

Mrs. Trent saw the craft first. She told Air Force investigators
that she first spotted it about 7:30 pm as she walked across her
yard. About 30 ft. across, it floated noiselessly toward her
from the northeastern sky, creating a wake that rustled her
dress.

Thinking it was "something the Army was experimenting with," she
shouted for her husband to bring the camera. As he darted
outside and began snapping photos, she ran inside to phone her
parents, who lived next door. Thus alerted, her father caught a
glimpse of the craft a

When the film was developed, Trent showed it to his friend Frank
Wortmann, a local banker, who displayed the pictures in the
bank's window. A local reporter saw and published the photos.
Within a month the main photo was circulated by news wires and
printed in Life magazine. The FBI and Air Force interviewed the
Trents. And then the photos disappeared.

Found in a news wire photo archive after 17 years, the misfiled
pictures were sought out by skeptics. "The pictures attracted
attention because they depicted not nebulous lights but an
artificial, structured aircraft," says Jerome Clark, of the J.
Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies (JAHCUS). He investigated the
case while researching an encyclopedia titled The UFO Book.

Skeptics found nothing to disparage the Trents' integrity, and
no financial motive for having faked UFO pictures. The strongest
criticism of the photos to date has come from Philip J. Klass,
an aviation journalist who has published several books and a
newsletter debunking UFO claims. Klass says the Trent photo
shows a shadow pattern that could be produced only if the
picture was taken in morning light. Bruce Maccabee, an optical
physicist more sympathetic to ufologists, says the same effect
could have been created by cloud cover.

And so the mystery continues. "If authentic, they comprise
significant evidence for the reality of intelligently controlled
UFOs," says Clark.


Sheraz, Iran

October 8, 1978

In the late 1970s, the long-friendly relationship between the
United States and Iran soured after the ouster of the Shah of
Iran. Anticipating armed conflict, both sides ratcheted up their
military preparedness. With U.S. spy satellites looking down and
Iranian radar installations looking up, the skies over Iran
became the most heavily monitored airspace in the world.

Had it not been for these political events, it is doubtful the
U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff would have been interested in a
snapshot taken by 16-year-old Jamshid Saiadipour. Up late
studying for exams in June 1978, he saw and photographed a UFO
from the window of his family's apartment in the town of Sheraz.

The photo caused a stir among ufologists because it resembled a
UFO reported by pilots during their landing approach to the
Teheran airport earlier in the year.

On Oct. 8, 1978, a similar craft was photographed by another
youngster, Franklin Youri, from outside his home near Lake Urmia
in western Iran. This picture, however, was not revealed until
the Youri family relocated to the United States three years
later.

A Freedom of Information Act request and lawsuit (see "What The
Government Really Knows About UFO Sightings" below) ultimately
led to the release of Defense Department documents that revealed
the American military's interest in the sightings.

What made ufologists and the U.S. military so interested in
photos of UFOs taken by two Iranian teenagers? Ufologists claim
that Iranian airspace had been a hotbed of UFO activity for many
years. They say a pivotal moment occurred on Sept. 19, 1978,
with an encounter between two Iranian Phantom jets and an object
that failed to appear on radar. When the American-made F-4
fighters got close enough to release their air-to-air missiles,
the planes' weapons-firing control systems mysteriously and
repeatedly failed.

Skeptics point out the real reason for the interest from the
Joint Chiefs of Staff may have been the strong resemblance
between the object that appeared in the two photos and a then-
secret stealth aircraft, Tacit Blue. Based at the former Area 51
secret aircraft development center in Nevada, it was designed to
test stealth technology.

Ufologists say the case needs further investigation. Until then
it remains a valid UFO. The Sheraz photo, shown enlarged in the
lower right corner, closely resembles Tacit Blue, a secret
stealth jet.


Trindade, Brazil

January 16, 1958

When ufologists and skeptics can't find strings, shadows or
signs that a UFO photo is faked, they question the credibility
of the photographer and witnesses. Trained observers-including
pilots, ship captains and military officers-are usually
considered the best witnesses. It is the credibility of the 47
crew members of the Brazilian naval vessel Almirante Saldanha
that makes the Trindade, Brazil UFO photo so important.

As part of its contribution to the 1957-58 International
Geophysical Year, the Brazilian navy set up a weather station on
the small rocky island of Trindade, in the south Atlantic Ocean.
In January 1958, observers began spotting unusual aerial
activity, including fast-flying disks. On the night of Jan. 16,
the disk shown here appeared within view of the ship's company.

Among those present was civilian photographer Almiro Barauna,
who snapped a series of six photos. After the ship returned to
port, the photos, which had been developed on board in a
makeshift darkroom, were turned over to the Brazilian Navy
Ministry. Analysts determined the photos to be authentic and
concluded they showed a 50-ft.-dia. object moving at 600 mph.

Skeptics have offered two explanations for the craft. Initially,
Harvard University astronomy professor Donald H. Menzel said the
UFO was simply a plane flying through fog. Then, in the first of
several books he would write debunking UFOs, he claimed the
photos were faked. Barauna, he said, had first photographed a
model UFO in his home and later double-exposed the same roll of
film with pictures of the open sky. However, a 1978 examination
by an independent laboratory using digital photo analysis ruled
out such tampering.

"Given the number of witnesses, the results of photo analysis,
both military and civilian, and the need for debunkers to
reinvent the incident to 'explain' it, it seems most unlikely
that the Trindade photographs were hoaxed," says JAHCUS's Clark.
The Trindade UFO was photographed and seen by more qualified
observers than any other sighting.


Bentwaters, England

December 27, 1980

"I started my tour of duty believing in aircraft lights," Nick
Pope tells me as we eat a traditional English lunch of fish and
chips at London's Red Lion pub, just down the block from his
office in the British Ministry of Defence (MOD). "I ended it
believing in aliens."

For three years Pope was assigned to the MOD office responsible
for investigating UFO reports. Holding a rank equivalent to
captain, he knew the detours around the roadblocks bureaucrats
put in the way of ufologists.

Among the cases he examined was an incident that has come to be
known as England's Roswell. It occurred over the last days of
December 1980, near a now-closed U.S. Air Force base in
Bentwaters. For two nights security patrols observed unusual
lights in the Rendlesham Forest just beyond the base's fence. On
the second night they entered the forest with generator-powered
floodlights, Geiger counters and 2-way radios. At the critical
moment when an angular, 20-ft.-wide, 30-ft.-tall craft appeared,
the radiation-detecting instruments started to clatter and the
spotlights and radios began to sporadically fail.

Daylight revealed broken tree limbs and three 1 1/2-in. deep, 7-
in.-dia. circular depressions, suggesting something had landed,
just as the observers claimed.

Initially, skeptics dismissed this physical evidence as wind
damage. They explained the unusual lights by constructing a
complex chain of events that included unusual astronomical
activity, satellite debris burning up on reentry, and the
rotating beam of a lighthouse several miles away.

What the skeptics couldn't explain, says Pope, is a scientific
report he found in the MOD files. It revealed radiation levels
25 times higher than normal background levels in the soil and
trees surrounding the landing site.

As Pope delved more deeply into MOD files he found that the
Bentwaters case, as it is known to ufologists in the United
States, was the second to occur in the Rendlesham Forest.

On Aug. 13, 1956, British radar had picked up blips similar to a
jet aircraft's-only it was moving at speeds up to 9000 mph.
Technicians later told investigators for Project Blue Book that
diagnostics checks indicated their radar was operating normally.
The incident remained classified until 1969.

Pope said the two Bentwaters episodes and others he investigated
during his stint as England's top UFO investigator moved him
from skeptic to believer, and inspired him to write a book
titled Open Skies, Closed Minds.

"As long as we are all afraid of ridicule, the UFOs are going to
be ignored," says Pope. "Perhaps we ignore them at our peril."


Zanesville, Ohio

November 13, 1966

For those who believe UFOs are piloted by child-size creatures
with large almond eyes, any sighting that takes place in the
state of Ohio merits special attention.

The attraction is Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. In addition
to being the headquarters for Project Blue Book, it was also
home to the Air Technical Intelligence Centers, which analyzed
flying machines based on Nazi German "flying disc" designs (see
Roswell Plus 50, July '97). What makes these stories even more
appealing are recurring rumors that the base is also the
repository for debris from crashed UFOs, and alien bodies.

Ohio holds another distinction in UFO lore. In Zanesville, on
Nov. 13, 1966, local barber and amateur astronomer Ralph Ditter
took the two spectacular UFO photos shown here. Beyond their
detail-which to some skeptics is evidence itself of fraud-the
importance of the photos lies in their similarity to the craft
reported during a series of sightings that occurred throughout
the year.

At least two of these sightings were made by law enforcement
officials, credible witnesses on everyone's list. In Toledo, on
March 25, two Lucas County deputies, Robert Schultz and Stanley
Nelepa, reported seeing a huge object floating at treetop level.
Four days later, a glowing orange object was seen floating over
the Ohio Turnpike administration building in Berea. Three days
later it was spotted a second time, by Berea patrolmen Clarence
T. Janowick and John R. Galik Jr.

Because Ditter took his photos with a Polaroid camera, there are
no negatives to investigate for signs of tampering. The jury
remains out-and perhaps may never be able to return a verdict on
whether the Zanesville photos are spectacular evidence or
spectacular frauds. The Zanesville photos fit descriptions of
craft seen by police and sheriff's deputies elsewhere in Ohio in
the spring and fall of 1966.


Hillsdale, Michigan

March 21, 1966

Ufologists sometimes say skeptics are people who haven't had a
"close encounter." Josef Allen Hynek, who coined the phrase
"close encounter," might agree.

Hynek was a University of Chicago-trained astrophysicist and
confirmed skeptic who served as the scientific consultant to the
Air Force Project Blue Book UFO investigation. And then he
changed sides. The case that prompted his conversion occurred in
Hillsdale County, Mich., on March 21, 1966, and involves the
photo shown here.

At about 10:30 pm a resident of the women's dormitory at
Hillsdale College reported a strange object in the sky. County
Civil Defense director William E. Van Horn responded and
confirmed that a bright glowing object was indeed bouncing
across a nearby hollow and then became airborne. Hynek, who died
in 1986, dismissed the Hillsdale sighting as "swamp gas." Within
two weeks, however, he changed not only his opinion about the
sighting, but also sides in the great UFO debate.

Perhaps it was the contents of Van Horn's report that sparked
the conversion. Soil analysis showed that on the very spot where
the "swamp gas" had touched down, radiation levels were higher
than in the surrounding terrain. More significant still was the
finding that the ground was also contaminated with boron, the
element used to slow nuclear chain reactions.


What The Government Really Knows About UFO Sightings

Do you believe the government is telling the truth about UFOs?
Each of the government's major UFO studies-projects Blue Book,
Grudge and Sign-claimed to have made a clean breast of things.
Yet, according to JAHCUS's Clark, 80% of Americans "believe the
government is hiding evidence of UFOs."

David M. Jacobs, a historian at Temple University, says the
government's own paper trail suggests there may be a good reason
to distrust the official version. He points out that between
1953 and 1969, the entire period the Air Force was responsible
for investigating UFOs, its officers operated under standing
orders from the Joint Chiefs of Staff that made it a crime under
the Espionage Act to share UFO reports with unauthorized
personnel.

"This action effectively stops the flow of information to the
public," says Jacobs. "Only if Blue Book could positively
identify a sighting as a hoax or misidentification would the Air
Force release information to the public."

The rules, Project Blue Book advisor Hynek once remarked, made
it impossible to evaluate a UFO report as anything other than a
natural object, weather or atmospheric phenomenon, a hoax or a
hallucination.

Hynek claimed that the Air Force was also under economic
pressure to reduce the paperwork that UFO reports generated. To
help keep the work flow manageable, said Hynek, Blue Book made
arbitrary rules. For example, sightings reported by anyone under
18 were automatically disregarded. Toward the end of the
project, enlisted men were allowed to summarily dismiss cases by
claiming they were filed by crackpots.

Now, many of the sightings that Blue Book and earlier UFO
investigations refused to examine are about to come out. In 1980
a group called Citizens Against Unidentified Flying Objects
Secrecy filed a lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act
that asked the National Security Agency (NSA) to open its files
on 239 sightings. In documents filed under a top-secret security
classification, NSA responded that revealing its knowledge of
UFO activity would damage national security.

But now, under revised declassification rules, many of these
documents are being released by virtue of their age. Included
among them are the Joint Chiefs of Staff communications about
the Iran sighting. Historians and ufologists may soon have the
final pieces of the great UFO puzzle.






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   Oct > Oct 1

                    The Drake Equation Revisited: Part I

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:52:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:50:15 -0400
Subject: The Drake Equation Revisited: Part I


Source: Astrobiology Magazine

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6
10&mode=threadℴ=0&thold=0

The Drake Equation Revisited: Part I

Extrasolar Life Summary: This is the first in a series of
presentations given at a public forum sponsored by the NASA
exobiology branch. The forum, held in Palo Alto, CA, on Tuesday,
August 26, 2003, was entitled, "The Drake Equation Revisited,"
and addressed the questions of estimating the probabilities for
finding intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.


The Drake equation:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

was developed as a means of predicting the likelihood of
detecting other intelligent civilizations in our galaxy. At the
NASA forum, Frank Drake:

http://www.seti.org/about_us/leadership/staff/frank_d.html

who formulated the equation 42 years ago, moderated a debate
between paleontologist Peter Ward, co-author of the book Rare
Earth, and astronomer David Grinspoon:

http://www.funkyscience.net/index.html

author of the forthcoming book Lonely Planets: The Natural
Philosophy of Alien Life.

In this installment of the series, Dr. Drake explains the
history and the content of his famous equation. Dr. Drake is the
director for the Center for the Study of Life in the Universe at
the SETI Institute:

http://www.seti-inst.edu/

in Mountain View, CA. He is also chairman emeritus of the SETI
Institute board of trustees and professor emeritus of astronomy
and astrophysics at the University of California at Santa Cruz.

Subsequent installments will include the comments made by Drs.
Ward and Grinspoon, and the question-and-answer period that
followed the opening remarks.

Frank Drake: It's a pleasure and honor to be with all of you
exobiologists tonight. When I started in this game there were no
exobiologists. So just seeing you all out there is a lot of
progress.

I want to start out by giving you a little bit of the history
and a brief description of the equation. This all began shortly
after I conducted the first search for extraterrestrial
intelligent radio signals at the National Radio Astronomy
Observatory in Green Bank. That was in 1960. At that very same
time, a very seminal paper was published by Philip Morrison and
Giuseppe Cocconi, pointing out what I had already realized, and
that was that we had the ability to detect reasonable signs of
intelligent technology across the distances which separated the
stars.

This in one way opened the door to detecting life, in this case
specifically intelligent life, beyond Earth. A great new window
of possibilities was opened, which was slowly recognized at the
time and, of course, is widely recognized today. It's expressed
by the great growth in the field of astrobiology.

Shortly after this, the National Academy of Sciences wanted to
convene a small meeting to examine this whole question and
propose where we should go from here. They asked me to do this
and, indeed, just about 42 years ago at this time I sponsored
the first such meeting at Green Bank. I was the entire
scientific and local organizing committee, but it wasn't a hard
task because I invited every person in the world we knew of who
was interested in working in this subject - all twelve of them.
And all twelve of them showed up.

As I planned the meeting, I realized a few day ahead of time we
needed an agenda. And so I wrote down all the things you needed
to know to predict how hard it's going to be to detect
extraterrestrial life. And looking at them it became pretty
evident that if you multiplied all these together, you got a
number, N, which is the number of detectable civilizations in
our galaxy. This, of course, was aimed at the radio search, and
not to search for primordial or primitive life forms.

Well, what is the equation? It encapsulates our understanding of
the evolution of our galaxy and of our solar system. We know our
galaxy is about 14 billion years old and that stars have been
created at almost a constant rate. And since very early on those
newly formed stars have been accompanied by planetary system -
at least in some cases.

So the whole equation is based on a continuous production of new
planetary systems, and then presumably life, intelligent life
and technology-using life. And that tells us, of course, that
the number of detectable civilizations is going to be
proportional to the rate of star formation, which we write as
R*, because the more stars you make, the more civilizations
there will be, eventually. That's an easy one.

We've known for a long time that about 20 new stars are produced
per year in our galaxy, and that has been the case for many
billions of years now. But over time, we've become a little bit
more sophisticated in defining what this factor means. Twenty
stars per year are produced, but we realize not all of them
could produce an intelligent species. Some burn out their
hydrogen cores extremely fast, in literally millions of years -
 no time to evolve intelligent species.

If we take all of those away, the fast-burning stars, we're left
with 19 stars per year. Of those, about four are like the sun.
So is the right number for R* four per year? This is still one
of the big questions in astrobiology, and one of the challenging
ones.

What are the other 15? They're all very small red dwarf stars,
stars known as M dwarfs to astronomers. For a long time we
believed that they could not be abodes of intelligent life
because, indeed, they could have planetary systems (although
none has ever been detected yet), but even if there were planets
there, they would be so close to the star that, just as our moon
keeps one face to the Earth, they would keep one face to their
star. And we thought this would create a situation where, on the
dark side of these planets, it would be so cold that the
atmosphere would freeze out. There would be no atmosphere and
therefore no possibility of life arising.

Well, now that belief has been challenged and it has been shown
that with a properly massive atmosphere this freezing out of the
atmosphere will not occur. So perhaps the M stars and their
planets, after all, are abodes of life.

So what is R*? Well maybe it's 4, and maybe it's 19 stars per
year.

If we multiply by the fraction of those stars which have
planets, fp, we get the rate of production of new planetary
systems per year. So what is that? Well, for a long time we have
had nothing but theories to go on. We thought perhaps 50 percent
of the stars had planets. That was based on the fact that half
the stars are binary systems, and the other half must have
something else, something small, a planet.

Of course, one of the great discoveries of the last century,
which only ended about three years ago, was the detection of
other planetary systems. This is one of the greatest discoveries
in the history of science. We now know of over 100 such systems.
Most all of them have what you might call "giant Jupiters" in
them, not planets suitable for life on Earth. But we know this
is the tip of the iceberg, because this is the only kind of
planet we can detect. About 5 percent of the stars have such
planets. What do the other 95 percent have? Perhaps Earth-like
planets, or planets suitable for life. We also ask whether these
giant planets have habitable satellites.

In any case, the primary detector of these stars, Geoff Marcy at
UC Berkeley, estimates that about 50 percent of the stars have
planetary systems.

If we multiply that by the next factor, which is written ne, the
number of planets in the ecosphere, a term we don't use any more
- nowadays we call it the continuously habitable zone - we get
the rate of production of possible life-bearing planets. This is
a complex subject, very much more complex than was first
imagined. Early on it was thought that the planet had to be at
such a distance from the star that liquid water could exist. Not
too close, not too far. You had to be Goldilocks, to give rise
to life.

Now we realize that the nature of the planet can greatly affect
the distance at which it can be from a star and still be
habitable. A prime example is Europa, far out where it's very,
very cold on its surface, and yet there is a potential biosphere
on that object. A deep atmosphere, through the greenhouse
effect, can also make a planet far out from its star
nevertheless habitable. So, again, this is a factor we don't
know very well.

The next factor, fl, is the fraction of potentially habitable
planets that actually give rise to life. That one we seem to
know something about, because the chemists have found a
multitude of chemical pathways to the origins of life. Life
seems inevitable on any planet with suitable characteristics.
And what are those? They seem to be very simple: liquid water,
organic molecules and a source of energy.

The real question is not whether life arises, but how it really
happens. The present consensus is that life does arise in a body
of water, perhaps in Darwin's "warm little pond," or the deep-
sea vents, the froth of ocean waves - these have all been
suggested - or on the molecular templates of clay minerals. We
think that faction is close to one.

Our next fraction, fi, is the one which describes what fraction
of systems of living things give rise to an intelligent species.
This fraction is trying to give the answer to the question: Does
evolution converge or diverge? There is much evidence for
convergence in intelligence, including the growth in brain size
seen in the fossil record, but is an intelligent brain really
contingent on things we're not quite sure about? For instance,
does it require the evolution of a means of sophisticated
communication, one of the possible contingent situations which
may limit the frequency with which intelligence arises? That one
is a big unknown.

The next, fc, is the fraction of intelligent civilizations which
give rise to a technology which we might detect, or which might
communicate - that's what the "c" means. It seems that fc should
be close to one. Once you have enough intelligence in a creature
whose anatomy allows the use of tools, you should get
technology. Technology has, in fact, developed in many places on
Earth in humans independently.

The prime drivers are pretty obvious. The drivers were to
provide food, leading to the development of agriculture and the
tools of agriculture; to provide the ability to live in
otherwise uninhabitable regions, such as artic regions, polar
regions; and, of course, for the development of weapons.

At this point, you multiply this all together and you get the
rate of production of detectable civilizations in the galaxy.
Now, we don't believe, being conservative, that they remain
detectable forever. Perhaps they destroy themselves through
nuclear folly, or through destruction of their environment.
Perhaps they suffer a cosmic catastrophe, like the K/T event
[the asteroid impact that caused dinosaurs to go extinct].

More likely, at least to the optimists such as myself, they come
upon the scene, they are detectable, and then they disappear,
because they become more sophisticated technologically. They've
stopped releasing energy into space. At the present time we are
very detectable, primarily through our television broadcasts.
But we see television going to cable, and especially to the
direct-to-home transmission of television from satellites.

This is terrifying to people like me. The ordinary over-the-air
television transmitter transmits a million watts. It makes a
very detectable signal. The transmitters which transmit
television to those little dishes on people's homes only
transmit 10 watts, far less than a million, and make a signal
which is totally undetectable at interstellar distances.

So, we have to worry: Civilizations may be thriving, with a
tremendous quality of life, and yet be very hard to detect. And
we must account for that by saying, okay, they exist but they
only last some limited amount of time, which we will call L, the
longevity.

L is dominated by those civilizations with very large Ls,
because L is the average lifetime of a civilization. Just as a
numerical example, given 100 civilizations, if 99 are detectable
for only 100 years, and 1 is detectable for a billion years,
then L turns out to be 10 million years. And so L may be larger
than what our intuitive thoughts might be.

So that's the equation. But before we move on, I'll offer a few
comments that are evident but somehow not really seen. One is
that every factor in the equation appears to the first power.
There are no exponentials, no powers, no power laws, no
logarithms. Every one is equally important. And, in the same
vein, the overall error in the result is controlled by the
biggest uncertainties, which are probably fi and L. Thirdly, the
uncertainties grow as we go from the left to the right of the
equation, from the astronomical and chemical factors to the
social ones.

And, finally, we ask whether we need some other factors. I get
letters every week suggesting such. Particularly that we need a
factor for the ignorance of politicians. However, all the other
ones so far proposed are subsumed within the traditional ones.
But the future could well reveal the need for an enlarged
equation.






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   Oct > Oct 1

               Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:24:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:51:31 -0400
Subject: Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics


I have a love-hate relationship with debunkers/skeptics.

I enjoy a lively debate with a skeptic but loathe the pitiful
and sophomoric rantings of the debunkers.

Yet even the debunkers offer good sport now and then.

On a daily basis I would have to field responses when
debunkers/skeptics would barge into our chat room on AOL and
invalidate anyone who had an alternate viewpoint.

Believe you me, I've got snappy comebacks to every debunker pile
of bs they can dish out and it would frustrate them so to the
point you could see the frothing of mouths via the computer
screen ( maybe I should make a 'Frothing At The Mouth Debunker
Emoticon' )

Granted the debunker/skeptics had only one argument I could
grant them credence:

Where's the physical proof?

My only response would be that publicly we've got no physical
proof yet the documents gleaned by courageous researchers and
the daring public as well as reporters and whistleblowers are
far beyond the 51% required in a court of law targeting our
government and private industries as hoarding the physical proof
for their own purposes. If true then the physical proof they're
looking for is what they collect their email with and use to
enter into chat rooms and forums to debunk that which they're
using.

Recently I got into a debate with a top researcher at JPL on
another listserv focusing on space technology. He's anti-ufo,
anti-alternate energy, basically anti-anything that doesn't make
him feel comfortable that someone else may be smarter.

He ranted on about how anti-gravity and zero point energy were
pipedreams and how anyone entertaining the ideas were UFO nuts
and such and then proceeded to support his point that anti grav
and zero point wouldn't work in outer space because outer space
is  a total vacuum with nothing to 'push' on.

Granted I'm no rocket scientist nor physicist but his statement
did irk me and I told him so because from my viewpoint outer
space isn't a total vacuum because the last time I looked
someone had stuck a Universe in it.

He shut up after that and his friends tell me he's still
steaming.

Then a short time later one of them sent me this link to an
article at space.com focusing on misconceptions we have about
space and that it's truly not a total vacuum.

Correct me if I'm wrong but we found it funny.

http://space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_030922.html


Best,

Greg






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   Oct > Oct 1

                          Alpha Centauri Questions

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:53:09 -0400
Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions


Is it me or did someone finally find out whether the Alpha
Centauri star system has planets or not?

It seems to me that our planetologists and astronomers would
have by now examined our closest star neighbors and given a
thorough data stream.

I've searched the web and get bits and pieces of information yet
none that basically says:

"Yes Virginia, there are planets next door."

I noticed we're able to detect via 'gravitational wobble' the
gas giants around stars far more distant.

One report stated it was the proximity of that star system and
it's stars' luminosity that hampers investigation.

If any of you have data, please post.


Best,

Greg






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   Oct > Oct 1

                   Nose Bleeds, Scoop Marks & Vivid Dreams

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:38:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:54:39 -0400
Subject: Nose Bleeds, Scoop Marks & Vivid Dreams


More Possible Abductions In Canada.

Nose Bleeds, Scoop Marks & Vivid Dreams

Canada

Location: A "Days" Drive From Kelowna, British Columbia

The actual location I have not given in this report.

Date:  September 3, 2003
Time:  approx: 2:30 a.m.


Hi Brian

I wanted to thank you once again for the conversation last week.
It is good to have someone listen to what you have to tell them
and actually EMPATHISE. Thankyou and BRAVO!! Anyway I promised
you a small report that would include the dream I had so here
goes.

Wednesday night last week (3rd September, 2003) in the wee small
hours, I think around 2.30 am, my 12 year old son woke my
husband and myself telling us he had a nosebleed. He gets a
night time nosebleed once a year or so, so we didn't think too
much about it. The bleed was not a heavy bleed, but rather a
persistent trickle. He then came into our bed with us and I went
to sleep very rapidly (which is unusual for me) and went
immediately into an extremely vivid, lucid dream.

In the dream my son and I were outside of a house and we ran to
other side to see a UFO in the sky. The UFO was not lit, but
rather a dark shadow in the night sky, huge (think 100 story
building) and in two parts that were connected. We 'knew' this
was something to be afraid of (note that I have never had a fear
of UFOs) and hid in the deep shadows of the house as the UFO
came down with very little noise and transformed itself into a
vast robot which started walking across the countryside. Again
we 'knew' this had something to do with power, as in electrical
power and that we would be forced to use some power we didn't
want to use. In fact we 'knew' that if we used the power they
were bringing it would be a trick ultimately used to imprison
us. We ran inside the house and there the phone was ringing and
we 'knew' it was the power company calling us to force us to use
this new power.

 For this reason we didn't answer the phone. There was a glassed
in room in the house which had a number of people seated in it.
These people were important to me, although they are not people
I know in my life, and I ran into the room to warn them of what
we had seen. One of the people was a brown haired girl of about
20 whom I recognized as my daughter (I have a daughter in real
life, but this was not her). She also recognized me as her
mother. She was crying, although I am not sure why. What was
remarkable about her was that she was half human and half
'robotic'. At one point I could see some of the skin on her back
and you could see that the skin was living tissue stretched over
a metallic frame. The skin was red and sore like burn scar
tissue.

She was also pregnant and made a comment to me about how she had
been to 'animal control' (this is not the exact phrase she used,
but I clearly recall it was like she had been to a vet rather
than a human doctor) where she had been impregnated. The father
of her child was also there, another predominantly robotic
person who looked like a human face had been grafted on. He was
a sympathetic figure and he understood what I was telling him.
There were others in the room who were similar but I did not
have a chance to speak to them. The dream goes blank for a bit
and then we are in the same place but now I can see that there
is a neighborhood outside. There is a huge wind blowing up and I
'know' this is about Earth changes. but I 'know' even more than
that. I 'know' that after the Earth changes the alien beings
will come for us and it will be terrible. The power company had
set up a steel building that looked like the only thing that
could withstand the wind. Everyone crowded inside and I 'knew'
that this was a trap.

A cage we couldn't get out of afterwards. I pointed out to the
father of my daughters baby that the heavy stainless steel doors
only opened from the outside, and that if we let them go we
would all be imprisoned. Between us we managed to keep the door
from closing. The Earth changes were nowhere near as severe as
everyone had expected and parts of the street were still
standing. People were handling this very well because the
collapse of society meant they were freed from economic slavery
and they were beginning to share and create a barter community
soon into the aftermath. But as I watched them I was filled with
foreboding that the aliens would soon be here and that there
would be carnage and slavery. This was a very bleak dream. I
awoke because my own nose was bleeding. It was just before 6am
and I had been dreaming this dream since I fell asleep. I have
never, in all of my life, awoken to a nose bleed. I got straight
out of bed and discovered that I was sore all over, like I had
been in a big fight for hours.

Stiff arms and legs and total physical exhaustion. My nose for
the next 24 hours, on the side that was bleeding, was swollen
and hot internally, consistent with some kind of trauma. For
over three days I suffered with the same kind of pain as you
would have from a root canal, except this pain was in my nose,
going up into my brow bone. Even today, almost a week later, my
nose and face are too sensitive to touch. The swelling went down
after a day or so. On Saturday morning, (the morning of the 9th
September, 2003), my 13 year old daughter awoke just before
sunup also with a nosebleed. She also has never woken up with a
nosebleed in her life. You will recall I spoke to you on Friday
so this had not yet happened.  My son complained of similar pain
in his brow, but I did not want to make a very big deal out of
the event as he is very sensitive. My daughter was quite
concerned about the nosebleeds as she found the pattern bizarre
and very noticeable. I have ruled out any kind of influenza as
we have all been quite healthy (touch wood). The air in our home
is not dry as we had a brand new humidifier installed a couple
of months back and the air is not yet cold enough here in
(deleted by HBCC UFO) to become that dry.

Cheers and thanks again.

Update:

I just wanted to follow up on the report I sent you a few weeks
back in which I recounted for you how both myself and my son
woke up on the same night with nosebleeds, followed by my
daughter the following night. I was just listening to an
interesting UFO story on Jeff Rense when somebody mentioned
scoop marks, which I assumed was a phenomenon I had no link to,
when I SUDDENLY remembered that I have, for years had an odd
indentation in the back of my left knee. Because of its position
I have never really looked at it (it would take quite a
contortion act), but it has bothered me on and off for years
with mild soreness and occasional bouts of severe itchiness. So
I did what i could to see the mark itself, and sure enough it is
a perfectly circular scoop-shaped gouge almost a quarter of an
inch across and about the same depth right in behind my knee. It
is such a perfect circle that it certainly seems to be the
result of some kind of tool or instrument, yet I have never had
any surgery around my knees, nor have I had ANY doctor even
examine them. This is very odd. I cannot recount when this
originally occurred, but it is years and years.

I did just want to mention ANOTHER strange thing to you. It
seems like I am just suddenly remembering things! This evening
my husband called me into the bedroom to look at a couple of
very large deep scratches he has. One on his right leg, the
other on his left arm. He was trying to work out how on earth he
got them. He says he noticed them quite some days ago but keeps
forgetting to tell me. Now these are deep scratches, but well on
the way to healing, probably at least a week old. The one on the
leg is about six inches long and the one on his forearm about
four inches long. Because they are so deep it is remarkable that
he has no memory of them occurring. They must have really hurt
when they happened. He said he woke up one morning and they were
just there and then he forgot about them.

While i was looking at these scratches I suddenly remembered
that I had had some strange marks on my pajama shirt from the
night of my nosebleed. Now I don't know if I mentioned them to
you on the phone or in my email. You know it is so strange, I
just FORGOT. And yet they are really strange marks, and at the
time, before I had a chance to forget, I had put the short in a
safe place where it wouldn't accidentally get washed. So I
checked it out and they are still there. The marks are about 3
and 4 inches long, one or two on the sleeves and one or two on
the body of the shirt, one right up at the front of my shoulder,
and they look like a straight edge or a needle with a watery
bloody substance on it has rested there briefly. I tried to work
out how such a mark might occur as it is perfectly straight and
clean on one side and the reddish brown kind of seeping of on
the other side in a watery manner. Now I realize this may not be
anything.

Could be jello stains for all I know. All I can tell you is that
I have never seen these stains before the morning of the
nosebleed incident (they are definitely not nosebleed marks).
This is my favorite pair of white satin pajamas so I am pretty
sure I would have noticed them if they had been there before.
Now I will try in the near future to get you a picture of both
the scoop mark behind my knee and the strange marks on my
pajamas, but my digital camera cord has gone missing and because
it is a SONY, I have to buy one from Sony, so it might take a
bit of time to get one. I wanted to add that when I was looking
at the scratch marks on my husband I also notices a scar on the
outside of his right ankle that I had never noticed before in
our 15 years together. It is a completely healed almost
perfectly round scar the size of a nickel. He has no idea where
he got that either, although he is one who can usually give you
a half hour running commentary on every scar on his body!  Very
odd.

Something else odd. Almost four and half years ago my husband
was diagnosed as a diabetic, bad enough for a number of daily
medications and threatened regularly by the doctor with the need
for insulin, which he has resisted. Last week he went for a
blood test on Tuesday and on Thursday morning in the doctor's
office the doctor says to him that looking at his new blood test
he isn't diabetic anymore! The doctor was quite amazed and
dramatically reduced his medications pending another test in a
month or so. I don't know if this has anything to do with what
we have experienced, but it is certainly strange and unexpected.
And without explanation.

I am keeping in contact with this lady to see what if anything
unusual comes up. I did speak with her on the telephone at
length. She is a bright and very intelligent woman who seems to
have a mystery on her hands.

I would like to thank her very much for allowing me to post her
letters to me. She and I hope this will help in a small way to
have others come forward to talk about their possible
experiences.

I also should mention, I have been contacted by another woman
who resides some miles away from the lady in this report. The
interesting thing is that this new case has similar features in
her story, the exception is that with her the event has been
taking place for approx: 40 years.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   Oct > Oct 1

                UFO Reported To WPAFB: Franklin, OH - 9/27/03

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:27:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:56:29 -0400
Subject: UFO Reported To WPAFB: Franklin, OH - 9/27/03


SUBJECT: UFO Sighting
LOCATION: Franklin, OH (Butler County)
DATE: Saturday Evening, September 27, 2003 - 10:30 p.m.

SUMMARY

Sandy, a resident of Franklin, Ohio (Butler County) contacted
Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio on late Saturday
evening, September 27 after 10:30 p.m. to report an unusual
situation seen in the sky near her home.

Sandy (name and phone number on file) is a married medical
assistant with three children and states that while driving home
from the Solid Rock church with her son and daughter on
Wednesday evening, she was approaching her residence in the
Heartland Subdivision when she spotted a strange pattern of
green flashing lights low in the sky, just above the trees.

"These lights were absolutely huge," she said, "and were a pure,
bright green color."

The witness said that the lights were first visible to the
northeast as she entered the subdivision. Upon observing the
lights, she drove in pursuit of them at the urging of her son.
She drove around the area for about 1-mile and did observe the
situation for an estimated 2 to 3-minute duration of time.

The big green lights, she said, numbered from two or more and
would comprise patterns ranging from a big circle to a
rectangle. The left and right lights would, according to the
witness, 'move to the center' and then back again, and was
comparable in size to a full moon from her perspective. She was
uncertain if each light was an individual object or if the
lights were part of a larger single object, flashing in
sequence.

"There was a pattern to the way the lights would flash," the
witness reports, "they would move in uniform formation at the
same time and stay at an equal distance to one another."

Sandy said the lights, which appeared over an area near
Springboro, Ohio on Route 741, moved from south to north and
eventually vanished over the treetops.

"When we got home, my kids urged me to call Wright Patterson Air
Force Base," she said. "So I called them, thinking it would be
better than calling the Springboro police. They just referred me
to you."

Sandy informs that her husband is skeptical of her sighting,
saying that the lights were probably advertising skylights.

"I don't think these were any sort of skylights," she said. "The
lights were brilliant green, not fuzzy, and there were no
beams."

Sandy said that the sky conditions at the time of the sighting
were partly cloudy.

COMMENT

One cannot rule out that advertising searchlights may account
for this sighting report, but it is also interesting to note
that there has been a significant rise in UFO sighting reports
from the southern Ohio vicinity in late August and September of
2003. A spate of UFO sightings from Proctorville and Rome
Township, Ohio have been attributed to advertising searchlights
by local news media searching for answers, but not without
debate from eyewitnesses.

This Franklin, Ohio location is an estimated 27.5 miles
southwest of Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio
(Montgomery County).

Filed;

September 29, 2003
KENNY YOUNG
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo







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               Re: Airdie, Alberta - August 23, 2003 - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:33:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:58:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Airdie, Alberta - August 23, 2003 - Cammack


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:19:11 -0700
>Subject: Airdrie, Alberta - August 23, 2003


>Airdrie, Alberta

>Date:  August 23, 2003
>Time:  1:20 a.m.>

Are we not seeing a whole lot of sightings from Canada at the
moment? (Or does it just seem alot relatively, because the
Canadian UFO organisations are particularly good!?) In any case,
doesn't NORAD still work? are they not seeing these many
visitors? Is there any way to find out what NORAD sees?


Diana







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                     Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:59:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:03:34 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Kaeser


>From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:56:02 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>Thanks for the reply, Nick. May I ask you to be specific when
>say that there are a few well documented UFO crashes that the
>public would be aware of. I would like to set a base line for
>what is regarded as a genuine UFO crash ( with occupants ) for
>further discussion. You also make a reference to pilots and
>aircraft being lost in, I assume, the pursuit of UFO. Again,
>which incident(s) are you referring to ?

>If UFOs were responsible for the 1965 blackout of northeastern
>America, were they not then also involved in the recent blackout
>which Canada seems to have been blamed for ?

>You mention that "secret" safe zones were established in the
>1960s to enable UFOs to land safely. If these were really
>secret, how come we found out about them? Where can I find more
>reliable, factual information about this.

><snip>

>>The more sophisticated the technology, the more often it is
>>subject to major catastrophic failures, intentional or
>>accidental. One reason the U.S. military wants to dominate space
>>is that not only communications but a lot of their hi-tech
>>equipment and weapons systems can only function properly if
>>their satellites remain intact and are fully operational. Just
>>because we believe the occupants of UFOs are more advanced than
>>we are technologically doesn't mean that they are any less
>>vulnerable to crashes than we are when moving around in our own
>>skies.

>Okay, I can accept to a certain extent that the more technology
>is complicated, the greater the chance for failure. ( Like my PC
>!!!! ) However, when we talk ET technology, it is so radically
>different to ours that we cannot assume that a similar chance
>for failure exists. And if ancient texts are correct, these ET
>have been flying around in our skies for a good few thousand
>years. It would be reasonable to assume that such obviously
>advanced technology would have been refined to the point where
>failure is insignificant. I am making one assumption here of
>course and that is that we are indeed dealing with ET technology
>in these crashes and not " someone " elses.

><snip>


Noel-

A couple of comments to add to this mix.

While it seems unlikely that an advanced civilization would
travel lightyears across space only to crash their sophisticated
craft into the Earth, it's certainly not something to rule out.
Increased sophistication woud likely result in more points of
failure, which might be aggrivated by conditions that might not
have been anticipated. Of course, I've included "likely" and
"might" in this statement, because we're really trying to
speculate as to the motvies, capabilities, and technology of what
is by definition an alien (and completely unknown) entity.

As far as "well known" or "well documented" UFO crashes is
concerned, there are none that I know of that we can hold up as
proof. If we had that information, we'd likely all know about
it. Like Roswell, there are many reported incidents that have
been documented in some way. One listing that I was able to
find is located at:

http://home.pacbell.net/joerit/docs2/crash/pearsrch.htm

This list was compiled by LeRoy Pea, and may or may not be
accurate or complete. The Skywatch Research group has also
posted a fairly lengthy article on UFO Crash Retrivals at:

http://www.skywatch-research.org/ufo/UFOCRASH.HTM

Unfortunately, this information is not without its controversy
and there are many questions that can be asked regarding the
veracity of some alleged incidents. IMO, the UFO field is ruled
by speculation and faith, with very little emphasis on vetted
information, as far as the general Internet public is concerned.
There are some among us that would like to change this, but
there is little that can be done about the Internet's impact on
this genre.


Good luck in your quest,

Steve







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:08:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:20:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Hamilton


>From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:46:17 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:31:03 -0800
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:26:37 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>Thanks for your comments re. UFO crashes.

>I must disagree with you however, regarding your assumption as
>to the technology that UFO propulsion might be based on. I am an
>electrical/electronic engineer involved in developmental
>technology field. Yes, we may regard the F-16 or B-1B bomber as
>sophisticated within our own frame of reference. However these
>devices are actually very primitive and rely entirely on speed
>and acquired lift for their performance. For sure they are
>fantastic and we may well pat ourselves on the back for having
>developed such technology. But in comparison to UFO performance
>levels, we are playing around.

Whether primitive or not, can you give an example of technology
that is fault and failure proof?

Are you ruling out that a UFO may be coming into our atmosphere
for the first time and may not have fully assessed the
electrical potential of our atmosphere, especially during a
storm.  Since these objects seem capable of ionizing the
atmosphere around them even when hovering, isn't it possible
that an unforeseen accident could occur?

My studies were in physical science, but I have a great interest
in technology. It may be alien technology we are discussing, but
I would bet that we could understand in terms of our sciences.
This is exactly what Paul Hill did in his excellent book,
"Unconventional Flying Objects".

>UFO technology is most definitely not based on our concept of
>electronics or control systems. Based on observations, we have
>a UFO craft that is capable of incredible speed and mass
>displacement without the gravitational disadvantage. We also
>have a craft that leaves no fuel conversion residue during these
>maneuvers and it's debatable whether an atmosphere disturbance
>even results from the craft's passage.

However, the gravitational nullification supposedly achieved by
these craft is, by those who study advanced field propulsion
concepts, definitely has electric and magnetic components.

BTW, some atmospheric disturbances and disturbances in bodies of
water have been observed by witnesses when the craft is in close
proximity.

>And then we have the apparent absence of pilot interface systems
>as described by some abductees.

>This all tells me that we are dealing with a technology way beyond
>our own and it might even be questionable whether we would
>even recognize it as technology should we be faced with it.
>Unless of course one works for Area 51 and retro-engineer these
>craft for a living.

>Anybody got any ideas based on observation or insider info
>as to what UFO propulsion technology is about ?

Read Paul Hill's book.








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                     Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:08:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:21:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hall


>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:06:10 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:14:00 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:07:52 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>>In July or August, 1967, I, along with Jack Murphree, a local
>>>Radio DJ, and Ralph Dorris, and Engineer for General Electric,
>>>interviewed a Mr. Darrel Whitehouse, of RR?, Philpot, Ky.

>>>Mr. Whitehouse advised us that he heard a sound of squeeling
>>>tires on the road outside his house, so he went out to
>>>investigate. The local teens used the straight stretch in front
>>>of his house as a favorite place to drag race.

>>>When he walked outside, he didn't see anything, so he sat to
>>>smoke a cigarette. As he was setting there looking to his right,
>>>down the road, he heard a "pop" and turned to his left, looking
>>>diagonally toward his soybean field. He saw what appeared to be
>>>"a barrel" shaped object rising vertically from his soybean
>>>field. He said: "the object went straight up about a hundred
>>>feet and then sort of fell over, level with the ground, and flew
>>>off toward the north, toward Indiana."

>>>He said he: "didn't hear no sound at all other than the pop."

>>>When he went out to his bean field the next day, he found a
>>>circle approximately 30 feet in diameter, which was devoid of
>>>any live plants. The ground within the circle was dry and dusty.
>>>The plants were brown and dry, but not burned as a fire would.

>>>The plants outside the circle were normal. Ralph Dorris flew
>>>over the field in a small plane and photographed the area.

>>>The photos showed a distinctive "V" shaped trail leading to the
>>>north for about 30 yards, where the tops of the plants were also
>>>browned, although the rest of the plants were fine, as we later
>>>observed.

>>>We took several photographs with a black and white Polorid
>>>Swinger camera, but I only have one of those photos left, and it
>>>has faded. You can still see the circle, but I wish still today,
>>>I had used my Brownie Kodac color film camera.

>>>I took samples of the bean plants and the soil within and
>>>without the circle and sent them to NICAP.

>>>I received a reply from NICAP advising me that they had received
>>>the plants and would contact Mr. Whitehouse. I did not talk to
>>>Mr. Whitehouse after I received the letter. So, I do not know if
>>>they actually contacted him or not.

>>>I was hoping you might have access to the files of that time and
>>>could advise me.

>>The NICAP sighting files are archived at the Center for UFO
>>Studies in Chicago. As I understand it, they are accessible by
>>appointment.

>>Since I am currently working on a major new study and re-
>>evaluation of the 1966-67 sighting wave for the Fund for UFO
>>Research, I would be very interested if you could pin down the
>>date of this case. I have some NICAP files from that period but
>>that was a very big year and a date would help, even if within a
>>week or so.

>Hello Mike, Dick:

>I thought this would be easy. Wrong! I have no listing for
>Philpot, KY even though it almost rings a bell. (Philpot is in
>Daviess County, KY 86:59W - 37:44N ESE of Owensboro.)

>"Owensboro, KY" brought up this apparently separate incident
>from the same era:

>#8385: 1967/09/04? 20:50h 87:07W 37:46N NAM USA KNT
>OWENSBORO,KY:1 OBS:7 SLNT WHT OVOIDS >S:TURN W OVHD:
>TURN >N AGAIN/no accel /r98 MISCELLANEOUS. Footnote 51

>Footnote #51 here refers to (tadaah!) Michael Christol
><spachopr@bellsouth.net>. The account is/was on a website:
>http://www.icq.com if I have that right.

>A scan of mid-1960s Kentucky records finds nothing very similar,
>a barrel shaped object rising from a farm field.

>I hope this can be tracked down, I would like to catalog it.


Larry,

Mike and I have combined forces offline to pin down the date as
Aug. 4, 1967, and the time as about midnight (which I would take
to mean Aug. 4/5).

I found it so recorded on a 3 x 5 card from the NICAP records


 - Dick








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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:02:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:23:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman


>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:30:23 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:31:03 -0800
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

><snip>

>>Nick, I wrote about this in my first book about 13 years ago.
>>Some find it hard to believe that a spacecraft flown by
>>technically advanced races could be prone to interference or
>>malfunction. A simple review of our own air crashes involving
>>technically sophisticated aircraft such a the F-16 or B-1B
>>bomber refutes that idea. In fact there is support for the idea
>>that highly complicated electronic systems can be prone to
>>malfunction when subjected to radio, radar, or microwave
>>emissions.

>What I do find hard to believe is not that spacecraft could be
>prone to interference or malfunction, is that they always crash
>in isolated areas, the terrestrial governments are always able
>to collect all the scattered pieces and, above all, that those
>aliens never worried to try to recover their crafts and their
>comrades, dead or alive.

>Luis R. Gonzalez Manso

I wish I had a pipeline to Alien Central to know their feelings
about crashes and whether or not attempts were made to retrieve
the craft and crew that went down!! In case nobody has noticed
most of planet, is uninhabited. I certainly don't know if craft
have come down in heavily populated areas. Most plane crashes
don't happen on Wall Street. Most of our interesting military
facilities such as nuclear weapon test sites and rocket
launchings are also not in heavily populated areas. Look where
Cosmos 954 came down. Absence of evidence is not evidence for
absence.


Stan Friedman







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                Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Carr

From: Scott C. Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:58:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:25:13 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Carr


Dear Col, List, et al--

I think that you've missed something! Your photo of the grey:

http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

...certainly demands CLOSER inspection...! See here:

http://www.apocalypsefiction.com/path2.jpg


Hope this helps!!

--Scott C. Carr

Chief Editor, "The Flying Saucer Gazette"
www.erols.com/sardonica
Apocalypse Fiction Magazine
www.apocalypsefiction.com






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                   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:36:09 CST
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:29:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Rutkowski


The debate about the existence of evidence for UFO crashes is
interesting to watch as it unfolds. Some of the arguments
against crashes include puzzlement over why technologically-
advanced aliens could crash at all. This question was answered
several years ago now in an issue of the Swamp Gas Journal, and
reported to UpDates in 1999:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/oct/m11-018.shtml

On another question within the debate, Nick Balaskas pointed
out that terran military vehicles are known to have crashed and
some details classified, leading to confusion and suggestions
of cover up:

>Two examples of these are the crash in Canada of the nuclear
>powered Soviet spy satellite, Cosmos 954, in 1978 (which
>initiated not only the Canadian 'Operation Morning Light'
>recovery operation but also resulted in the immediate and
>direct involvement of a U.S. team of experts that is always
>on alert for such crash incidents) and, according to my
>annonymous DND source, an emergency landing in 1989 of
>the then still secret Comanche helicopter being tested flown
>from the nearby Boeing plant outside of Ottawa that created
>the Carp UFO cover-up.

While the Cosmos 954 crash is well-documented, there still
appears to be some confusion regarding the "Guardian" video that
is claimed to show an alien craft hovering near Carp, Ontario.

Nick's "anonymous" source may have some inside information about
a Comanche helicopter in the area, but the Carp video is clearly
not that of an aerial craft. It's true that some investigators
reported seeing helicopters near Carp, but this is likely
unrelated to the Carp case.

The story accompanying the Carp video is that witnesses (later
discredited by investigators Tom Theofanous and others) observed
a UFO flying overhead, matching the description of the object
seen in the video given by the mysterious "Guardian" to many
researchers.

The video seems to show an aerial object because it is
positioned in a black sky with no reference points. However,
diligent investigation and analysis shows that the object is
actually a much more "down to Earth" pickup truck parked on the
ground, surrounded by bright sources of light. This illusion is
easily deconstructed by looking at stills from the video, found
on MUFON Ontario's Carp web page:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/mufonontario/archive/carp.html

The truck is facing the camera, rotated about 45 degrees
clockwise to the left of the observer. The cab and windshield
can be clearly seen partly illuminated by the bright sources of
light beside and to the front of the truck. It's an interesting
trick, because when the camera is panned up and down and around
in a black sky, the bright lights make it nearly impossible to
see the truck and make it appear as if there is an object moving
about in the air.

Oh, and investigators found a partly-burned-out pickup truck
matching the dimensions and shape of the "UFO" on the property
of the people said to have observed the saucer.

So, Nick is correct in his defence of the point about evidence
in favour of crashed UFOs, but the Carp case is not an example
of such an event, with or without a Comanche helicopter.


Chris Rutkowski
Ufology Research of Manitoba






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                   Sci Fi Channel To Air Kecksburg Special

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:25:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:35:13 -0400
Subject: Sci Fi Channel To Air Kecksburg Special


The SciFi Channel yesterday issued a press release on their new
Kecksburg special. This is an original documentary and not a
program they've simply been sold by an independant production
company. This is one of two major programs they have planned
before the end of the year. The other will involve an in depth
look at the Bentwaters/Rendlesham Forest incident.

-----

September 29, 2003

Bryant Gumbel Takes Sci Fi To "The New Roswell"

Original Documentary Special Uncovers Startling Scientific
Evidence

About Possible UFO Cover-up in Kecksburg, Pennsylvania

SCI FI Channel blows the lid off of the possible government
cover-up of a little known 1965 UFO incident near the small town
of Kecksburg, Pennsylvania in The New Roswell: Kecksburg
Exposed, hosted by Bryant Gumbel. Directed and executive
produced by Melissa Jo Peltier of MPH Entertainment, this
original two-hour documentary special premieres Friday, October
24 @ 9 PM (ET/PT) exclusively on the SCI FI Channel. Jim Milio
and Mark Hufnail of MPH also serve as executive producers.
Peltier and Kelly McPherson serve as co-writers.

Nearly four decades ago, residents of Kecksburg, Pennsylvania
witnessed what may be the most significant UFO incident since
the Roswell crash. Observers described seeing a fireball in the
evening sky, a controlled landing and the systematic military
recovery of an object. The government denies anything happened.
The New Roswell: Kecksburg Exposed attempts to get to the bottom
of this controversy through a groundbreaking investigation that
includes startling scientific finds from the crash site and a
tireless pursuit of government officials. The special also
includes a revealing update from last fall's SCI FI Channel
Roswell special on the findings at the excavated crash site in
New Mexico.

The New Roswell: Kecksburg Exposed is part of the SCI FI
Declassified franchise, a series of specials that demystify the
place where science fiction meets science fact. From the dangers
of nanotechnology and artificial intelligence to
extraterrestrial encounters, SCI FI Declassified will explore
and champion the issues that confound and confuse the human
species. Other Declassified programs set to air this year are
Man vs. Machine, which premieres on November 21 and UFO Invasion
at Rendlesham, which premieres December 12 (also hosted by
Gumbel).

Through landmark documentary programming and advocacy-based
public affairs efforts, SCI FI will work to expand the
contemporary definitions of science fiction to include ideas,
concepts, myths and legends that simply cannot be explained.
Last year, SCI FI launched a Washington, D.C. based public
advocacy initiative to draw greater attention to the UFO
phenomenon by the media, scientists and opinion leaders. The
Channel is currently lobbying Congress to gain support for more
scientific inquiry into these issues and plans to announce new
measures closer to the documentary's premiere.

THE NEW ROSWELL: KECKSBURG EXPOSED is produced by MPH
Entertainment Productions, exclusively for SCI FI. Launched in
1996, MPH has produced over 130 hours of primetime television
programming and two independent feature films, including co-
executive producing the 2002 smash hit My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
 Notable among MPH's many television projects are SCI FI
Channel's The Roswell Crash: Startling New Evidence and Martian
Mania: The True Story of the War of the Worlds, cable's The Lost
Dinosaurs of Egypt, Founding Fathers, Discovery Channel's Eco-
Challenge Australia, Las Vegas: Gamble in the Desert and Sea
Tales.





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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                           Secrecy News - 09/30/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:45:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:37:54 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News - 09/30/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 82
September 30, 2003


**      WHITE HOUSE LEAK CONTROVERSY BUILDS
**      FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AROUND THE WORLD
**      THE ACCESS INITIATIVE ON ENVIRONMENTAL INFO
**      A COMPENDIUM OF DARPA PROGRAMS


WHITE HOUSE LEAK CONTROVERSY BUILDS

"The President and I place deterring, detecting, and punishing
unauthorized disclosures of U.S. national security secrets among
our highest priorities, at all times, but especially in this
time of war against terrorism of global reach," Attorney General
John Ashcroft wrote in an October 2002 report to Congress.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dojleaks.html

That unequivocal assertion is now being put to the test in the
face of renewed allegations that Bush Administration officials
improperly disclosed the identity of a CIA officer serving under
cover who happened to be the wife of an Administration critic,
Amb. Joseph Wilson.

Detecting and punishing the leaker didn't exactly sound like one
of the "highest priorities" of the White House at a rather
evasive press briefing on the subject on September 29.

"My understanding is that if something like this happened and it
was referred to the Department of Justice, then the Department
of Justice would look to see whether or not there is enough
information to pursue it further," said White House spokesman
Scott McClellan.  "But those are questions you need to ask the
Department of Justice."  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/09/wh092903.html

The Justice Department has reportedly opened an investigation
into the matter.

Leaks, including intelligence-related leaks, are commonplace.
But identification of leakers, let alone prosecution or other
punishment, is rare.

"We file crimes reports with the attorney general every week
about leaks," said DCI George Tenet at his confirmation hearing
on May 6, 1997, "and we're never successful in litigating one."

Although no one has ever been prosecuted for disclosing the name
of a CIA officer under cover, such disclosures happen from time
to time.

In 1998, an article in The New Republic named the CIA station
chief in Tel Aviv, to the dismay of Agency officials and
congressional overseers.  See "CIA Station Chief in Israel
Unmasked," Secrecy and Government Bulletin, November 1998:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec75.html

The text of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982,
which prohibits the identification of "covert agents," is
available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/iipa.html


FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AROUND THE WORLD

Public access to government information is increasingly becoming
recognized and accepted as a norm, in principle if not in
practice, around the world.

"More than 50 countries now have guaranteed their citizens the
right to know what their government is up to, and more than half
of these freedom of information laws passed in the last decade,"
according to a new survey prepared by information policy expert
David Banisar and published by the advocacy network
Freedominfo.org.

See the Freedominfo.org global survey and related resources
here:

http://freedominfo.org/survey.htm


THE ACCESS INITIATIVE ON ENVIRONMENTAL INFO

An international coalition of non-governmental organizations
known as The Access Initiative is working to promote global
standards governing public "access to information,
participation, and justice in environmental decision-making."

"The Access Initiative is motivated by a vision of the world in
which all people - regardless of citizenship, country of
residence, wealth, or education - have access to the information
and decision-making processes necessary to participate
meaningfully in the management of their natural environment."

For more information see:

http://www.accessinitiative.org/


A COMPENDIUM OF DARPA PROGRAMS

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has been
battered and bruised by controversies surrounding several of its
more questionable programs, including the defunct Terrorism
Information Awareness.

But the Agency has not received the credit to which it is
arguably entitled for conducting those programs in an
unclassified form, in which they can be freely debated,
criticized and attacked.

Now DARPA has published a complete descriptive summary of all of
its (unclassified) programs, where they can be reviewed in some
context.  It is an intriguing collection, with numerous items of
interest.

Describing its "Deception Detection" initiative to develop new
"lie detector" methods, for example, DARPA renders an unusually
harsh official judgment concerning the polygraph:

"Current screening techniques are flawed, enabling many
deceivers to avoid detection and falsely accusing large numbers
of innocent people.  An effective method to assess intent will
decrease both the missed detections and the false alarms." (Page
49).

See "Fact File: A Compendium of DARPA Programs," August 2003
(thanks to GP):

http://www.darpa.mil/body/pdf/FINAL2003FactFilerev1.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 1

               US Presidential Contender Clark Chats Science?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:45:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:52:50 -0400
Subject: US Presidential Contender Clark Chats Science?


Below are several paragraphs from a story from Wired.

Apparently they found presidential hopeful Gen. Clark
entertaining his flights of physics & fancy during a small
gathering in New Hampshire.

I can see it now: Clark will be the first president elected
because he appeared on Rense and Coast to Coast.  Should I send
him the URL to this listserv?

I think between Jeff, George and Art that'd be 80% of the voting
public.

Best Greg

-----

Source: Wired Magazine

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60629,00.html

"We need a vision of how we're going to move humanity ahead, and
then we need to harness science to do it," Clark told a group of
about 50 people in Newcastle attending a house party - a
tradition in New Hampshire presidential politics that enables
well-connected voters to get an up-close look at candidates.

Then, the 58-year-old Arkansas native, who retired from the
military three years ago, dropped something of a bombshell on
the gathering.

"I still believe in e=mc2, but I can't believe that in all of
human history, we'll never ever be able to go beyond the speed
of light to reach where we want to go," said Clark. "I happen to
believe that mankind can do it."

"I've argued with physicists about it, I've argued with best
friends about it.

I just have to believe it. It's my only faith-based initiative."
Clark's comment prompted laughter and applause from the
gathering.

Gary Melnick, a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian
Center for Astrophysics, said Clark's faith in the possibility
of time travel was "probably based more on his imagination than
on physics."

While Clark's belief may stem from his knowledge of





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   Oct > Oct 1

             Cattle Mutilations Continue & Old UFO Report Update

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:49:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:04:27 -0400
Subject: Cattle Mutilations Continue & Old UFO Report Update

-----

From: "Philip Creighton" <fsr_fsr@hotmail.com>
To: terry_colvin@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Cattle mutilations continue ... old UFO report with
update
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:52:14 PST

Thanks very much. My apologies for delay in responding to
correspondence over Christmas/New Year, when I have been away.

I will pass your letter to Gordon Creighton, the editor of FSR.

Yours sincerely, Philip Creighton.


From: "terry colvin" <terry_colvin@hotmail.com>
To: fsr_fsr@hotmail.com
Subject: Cattle mutilations continue ... old UFO report with
update
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:40:20 GMT

EYES ONLY EYES ONLY EYES ONLY EYES ONLY EYES ONLY
FSR pass to Philip Creighton

Dear Mr. Creighton:

Please indulge me over my use of back channel special handling
caveats that you see displayed above. My current temporary (90
days) stint in communications is in the front channel arena.

In 1991 I observed an unusual aerial sight in southern Arizona
which coincided with cattle mutilations. My account was
published in the "Letters to our Editor" section of The INFO
(International Fortean Organization) Journal, June 1992. The
most recent account of animal mutilation occurred in late 1998.
A calf was mutilated and left on the driveway of a ranch house
just a few miles SE of Sierra Vista, near Palominas.

The INFO Journal, June 1992 Quote. LETTERS TO OUR EDITOR Cattle
Mutilations Continue... Something is killing and mutilating
cattle, horses, and other animals in the SE Arizona counties of
Cochise, Pima, and Santa Cruz. This area is about 2,500 square
miles of small towns, cattle and horse ranches, farms, orchards,
vineyards, and Fort Huachuca. The latter is home to the U.S.
Army Information Systems Command (strategic communications)[now
Army Signal Command], the U.S. Army Electronic Proving Ground
(developmental and operat ional testing), and the U.S. Army
Intelligence Center and School.

Robert Marsett, a cowhand with the Sands Ranch, tells of a
recent kill and mutilation. The carcass appeared where only live
cattle were seen the day before, but the dead cow smelled as
though dead for several days. Marsett says coyotes and vultures
did not approach the carcass. Nearby cows failed to nuzzle the
carcass, as normally happens. Some blood was drained, organs
were removed, and some samples were removed from the
genital/rectal area. He states cowhands are now "packing iron"
as "flakes" are suspected.

On July 20[1991] I had my second UFO sighting. The object was
visible for two to three minutes around 1630 MST (2330 GMT)
moving north to south over Sierra Vista (Cochise County). It was
an inky black, flattened egg-shape with no surface detail, no
sound, and height and size unknown. The weather was overcast
with scudding clouds and mist over the nearby Huachuca Mountains
(maximum elevation is at Miller's Peak, 9,465 feet); latitude
31.33N, longitude 110.18W; wind aloft WNW. While looking at dark
clouds and lightning to the north, I at first mistook the object
for a large crow flying towards me head-on, and then for a
balloon. The object disappeared into the mist before Miller's
Peak as I observed from a lower elevation, approximately 4,700
feet.


Terry Colvin

Sierra Vista, Arizona
Unquote.

Philip, my life experiences and training satisfy me that what I
saw was of a high strangeness. Of course this view is a biased
one and I know of no other witnesses.

A bullet summary of my experiences/training:
o Thirty years association with military aviation, including 18
months in Vietnam
o Trained in aircraft, balloon, and spacecraft identification
and weather data collection; includes communications support to
U.S. military, Israel, French, and private prototypes of remotely
piloted vehicles (RPVs) and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).
o Amateur astronomer/weather observer

Best wishes, always,

Terry

---------------
Terry W. Colvin
Camp Doha,
Kuwait Kuwait City, Kuwait

This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from
http://www.printcharger.com/emailStripper.htm


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Alternate: <fortean1@msn.com>
Home Page: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html>
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program





                         The UFO UpDates Archive
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   Oct > Oct 1

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 37

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:15:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:09:12 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 37


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 37
October 1, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


MUTATED RATS OVERRUN
FARMS IN KIRGHIZSTAN

      "An unusual breed of rats is inflicting damage in
Kirghizstan's Dzhalal-Abad region."
      "The rats are 'killing numerous farm birds, are
damaging grape and corn crops, and have destroyed 14
hectares of grain in one of the districts.  These rats can
climb trees and are destroying apples, pears and other
fruit.'"
      "'The rat invasion may also give rise to different
epidemics,' (Kirghiz) Parliament member Dooronbek
Sadyrbayev told the Russian news agency Interfax."
      "The rats frequently attack people and children are
especially vulnerable."
      "Sanitary resources are unable to deal with the
situation."
      "'The enormous number of rats cannot be satiated,'
Sadyrbayev said, 'The rats are not susceptible to typical
poisons.'"
      "An Uzbek scientist bred the species by crossing an
ordinary rat wth a muskrat, he said."
      "Parliament members asked the (Kirghiz) government to
resolve the problem."
      Kirghizstan is a small country in central Asia north
of Afghanistan.  (See the Iraqi newspaper Al-Ahali for
September 20, 2003.  Many thanks to Mohammed Daud al-
Hayyat for this news story.)
(Editor's Comment: Welcome to Tom and Jerry Week here at
UFO Roundup.  Not only do we have mystery rodents, we have
mystery cats, too!)


PHANTOM PANTHER ELUDES
AIR PATROLS IN ULSTER

      "One of the most unusual police operations in
Northern Ireland began this morning," Wednesday, September
24, 2003, "as animal officers embarked on a big cat hunt
on the north (County) Antrim coast."
      "Heat-seeking equipment and a helicopter are being
used in the latest attempt to capture the puma which has
been on the loose in the Ballybogey area for five weeks."
      "USPCA (Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty
to Animals--J.T.) experts armed with tranquilliser guns
joined PSNI (police) officers in the biggest hunt to date
to track the killer puma, which has mauled livestock and
terrorised the north Antrim farming community."
      "However, it is feared that the animal may have to be
shot on sight by police marksmen in the interest of public
safety."
      "USPCA officers are hoping that if the beast is
captured its owner can be identified and may be
prosecuted."
      "The puma is thought to have escaped from a private
collector who has not yet come forward to claim the
ownership of the animal."
      "Today's search is focusing on a 10-mile (16-
kilometer) area between Ballycastle and Coleraine" in
Northern Ireland, "where the wild cat has been spotted on
numerous occasions."
      "It is understood that the last known sighting of the
animal was at approximately 7 p.m. on Monday evening,"
September 22, 2003, "when it was seen stalking cattle near
Ballybogey."
      "The elusive animal, which has killed four times,
appears to have been keeping a low profile in recent weeks
and no further killings have been reported to police."
      "Local farmers are convinced that the animal is
living in a remote area of woodland known as the Virgin
Moss and say the beast is seen roaming in that location at
least once a day."
      "The first sightings of the cat were reported in
early August (2003) in the Portrush, Portballintrae and
Bushmills area."
      "A few days later, paw prints found in the area were
identified as being made by a mountain lion, possibly a
puma or panther."
      "On 20 August, a farmer in the Bushmills area blamed
the cat for attacking a flock of sheep, killing a ram."
      "Earlier in the week, police marksmen were called to
Cookstown in County Tyrone after a reported attack on a
calf."
      However, the USPCA "said a black panther was living
near the village of Ballybogey, outside Portrush, and a
brown-coloured puma was roaming the hills near
Ballycastle."  (See the Belfast Telegraph for September
24, 2003, "Hunt for big cat takes to the air."  Many
thanks to UFO Roundup's phantom panther expert, Robert
Fischer, for this newspaper article.)


PHANTOM PANTHERS RUN
WILD IN SCOTLAND

     Last week saw a big upsurge in the phenomenon known as
alien big cats (ABCs) (phantom panthers in the USA--J.T.)
in Scotland.
      "Two young sisters were frozen in fear when they
confronted a 'panther' in a forest on the Black Isle" in
Ross-shire, Scotland, UK.
      "Josie Gaitens, 12, and sister Hannah, 8, were
walking in the woods near their village, Avoch, when they
saw something in the bushes and saw 'a large black head.'"
      "The sighting is one of several in the area and has
heightened fears that that an escaped wild panther or puma
is roaming through Ross-shire."
      "Two pensioners were shocked when they came face to
face with a big cat near their house."
      "The couple were living near Kilmacolm when they
caught the beast in their headlights."
      "They were so amazed by the incident, when they got
home they immediately notified the Scottish Big Cat
Society.  They said they had never seen anything like it
before."
      "The animal was seen on the (motorway) B788 between
Cairncurran and Milton at around 11:15 p.m. on Sunday,"
September 14, 2003.
      "It is described as being three feet (0.9 meters)
long and as tall as a fully grown Labrador (dog), a tawny
brown colour with small pointed ears."
      Elsewhere in Scotland, "a large cat-like creature the
size of a collie-dog has been spotted in the Nairn area.
A couple reported seeing the beast in a field on the
(motorway) A96 northeast of Aulderan while driving from
their house in Elgin to Inverness."
      "The pair, who do not want to be named, say they saw
the big cat while driving along the road between Broombank
and Gallows Hill at 9:45 p.m. on Wednesday of this week
(September 17, 2003).  The woman said they had just passed
Gallows Hill when her husband, who was driving, revealed
that 'there was a big black cat in the field.'"
      "She said, 'I looked to his side of the road and saw
a pitch black cat walking slowly away from a house at the
edge of a hayfield.  Its back was straight, and its head
was held down slightly lower than its back.  It was
definitely a cat.  A very big cat.  The tail was very long
and held down with a curved-up tip.  Its neck was long and
its head was surprisingly slow.'"  (See the Scottish
newspapers Evening Express for September 13, 2003,
"Panther fear after sighting;" the Daily Express for
September 18, 2003, "Beastly encounter--couple comes face
to face with big cat on country road;" the Greenoch
Telegraph for September 18, 2003, "Mystery beast sighting
at Aulderan;" and the Aberdeen Press and Journal for
September 20, 2003, "Girls in panther ordeal."  Again,
many thanks to Robert Fischer for his extensive coverage
of the phantom panther phenomenon.)


GIGANTIC SAUCER SEEN IN
CENTRAL OHIO

      On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 7:30 p.m., a family
in Ghanna, Ohio, a suburb of Columbus, spotted a gigantic
dark disc hovering over their neighborhood.
      Eyewitness Daryl, 32, a husband and father of two
children, reported, "This was not just a light in the sky.
It was a huge black 'thing' shaped like a disc."
      The family "was driving north on Beaverbrook Road
around 7:30 p.m. as dusk was setting in.  There was still
residual daylight visible when a massive aerial object
became apparent to them.  The disc-shaped object was in
front of their car and slowly heading west, almost seeming
to float silently."
      "At first I thought it was a shadow, but then I
understood it was in the sky, and I'm still trying to
comprehend what I saw," Daryl said, "I've never been a UFO
believer, but I cannot deny what I saw.  It was massive."
      According to Cincinnati ufologist Kenny Young, "The
immense object appeared directly in front of them and
occupied a space, from their perspective, that filled the
entire windshield of their 1994 Honda."
      "The first thing I started looking for was wings.  I
kept trying to see wings," Daryl said, "But there weren't
any.  The object looked like it was just floating, really
low, just above the treetops."
      Young added, "When first seen by the family, there
were lights around the object.  The daughter thought they
were orange, while the wife said they were multiple-
colored lights.  The lights that surrounded the disc-
shaped object were non-flashing but, more or less, changed
color 'in unison.'"
      "What was very strange was when the lights went out,
and the object went totally black," Daryl said.
      "It was just so huge.  I still can't believe it," he
added, "At one point, it blocked out the sun, and we were
in its shadow.  It was so low that the trees were blocking
it.  It seemed like it took forever for the object to pass
because it was so slow.  I could not discern any surface
material, structure or color.  This thing was pitch black
after its lights went out.  You couldn't see any surface
detail.  It was a monster."  (Many thanks to Kenny Young
of Cincinnati UFO Research for this report.)


TRIANGULAR UFO CAUGHT
ON VIDEO IN NEW HAMPSHIRE

      On Sunday, September 21, 2003, at 3:30 p.m., Paul
Spera "was sitting at my window" at his home in Franklin,
New Hampshire (population 8,405) "and noticed the object
came down out of a cloud.  It looked strange, so I ran and
got my camera and videotaped the object."
      The UFO "consisted of 3 to 5 white balls of light
shaped in a line and then in a triangle.  The lights also
turned different colors on the tape.  The UFO was no more
than 1,000 feet (300 meters) up and traveled to the west
at a rapid pace."
      Franklin, N.H. is at the intersection of Routes 3 and
11 approximately 25 miles (40 kilometers) north of
Concord, the state capital.  (Email Form Report)


HOVERING DAYLIGHT DISC
SPOTTED IN NEW MEXICO

      On Friday, September 19, 2003, at 2 p.m., trucker
Steve Goldman "was traveling south on Eubank Boulevard,
from Montgomery Boulevard, in Albuquerque, New Mexico
(population 448,607)" when he spotted "a stationary UFO."
      "For about 30 to 40 minutes, I observed a strange,
visibly-white orb or disc-shaped object suspended
absolutely motionless over the Sandia Labs."
      "It was a really-white semi-transparent disc or orb-
shaped object with three cylindrical protrusions jutting
from the bottom on one side of the craft.  The bottom
right-hand side of the craft.  It was at 10,000 feet
(3,000 meters) in altitude and absolutely motionless."
      "My observation lasted about 20 minutes.  When I got
home, I ran in to get my binoculars to get a closer look."
      Albuquerque, N.M.is on Interstate Highways I-25 and
I-40, located 58 miles (97 kilometers) southwest of Santa
Fe.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  The Sandia National Labs are the one of
the most important nuclear energy research sites operated
by the U.S. Department of Defense.)


SILVER SPHERE UFO SEEN
IN HUGO, OKLAHOMA

      On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 2 p.m., Larry W.
Taylor and his wife "went to town to check the mail at the
Hugo, Oklahoma post office and to eat at our favorite
Circus City diner."
      "After eating, we were driving home from Hugo, when
my wife said, 'What is that!?'" Larry reported.
      "She pointed up toward the sky.  It was just about 3
p.m., and the sky was clear and sunny.  Just a slight
breeze from the north.  I looked up through the windshield
and saw a bright silver orb or ball-shaped object.  It was
very clearly visible and bright silver.  Just my guess,
but maybe it was 5,000 feet (1,500 meters) in the sky and
was big."
      "We watched it for three to four minutes, and I drove
home and was thinking, Why didn't I have a camera?"
      "After that three to four minutes, the color went
from bright silver to dull grey, and it was not visible
any longer."
      Hugo, Okla. (population 5,536) is on the Indian
Nation Turnpike about 70 miles (112 kilometers) south of
McAlester.  (Many thanks to Jim Hickman and John
Schuessler for this report.)


FLASHING MYSTERY LIGHTS
SIGHTED IN WISCONSIN


      On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 9:45 p.m., the
female witness reported, at their home in Westfield,
Wisconsin (population 1,217), "My husband went out to the
upper deck to smoke.  He came back in and got me up.
'You're not gonna believe this.'"
      "I looked up and saw these flashing lights: red,
green, orange, yellow, blue... flashing!  We watched them
through the telescope and binoculars.  They didn't seem to
move, except up and down."
      "The next night (Friday, September 19, 2003), there
were two of them.  Same bright colors and flashing.  I
called the air-to-ground missile range the next day
(Saturday, September 20, 2003) to see if they were doing
anything, and they said they don't have anything like
that."
      Westfield, Wis. is just west of Interstate Highway I-
39, located about 50 miles (80 kilometers) north of
Madison, the state capital.  (Many thanks to John and
Jenny Hoppe of UFO Wisconsin for this report.)


RECTANGULAR UFO SEEN
TWICE IN QUEENSLAND

      On Tuesday, September 9, 2003, at 8:40 p.m., a woman
named "Louise said she had seen a UFO on her way home from
shopping while driving on the Brisbane Valley highway" in
Borallon, near Lowood, Queensland, Australia.
      "Louise said the object was enormous.  It had a black
base and covered the entire road.  It was a box-shaped UFO
with a searchlight in front and red lights down the
sides."
      Louise's twin sister, Tracy, "rang her to say, 'Sis,
you're not going to believe this, but I saw a UFO on my
way home from work.'"
      Tracy's sighting took place at 8:30 p.m. on Tuesday,
September 16, 2003. "Tracy told Louise that she saw the
UFO over the Borallon area near Lowood." (Many thanks to
John Hayes and Diane Harrison of the Australian UFO
Research Network for these reports.)


BROWN GOOP FALLS FROM
THE SKY IN NEW ZEALAND

      "Victims of unidentified offensive brown muck
showering people, houses and cars are popping up all over"
New Zealand.
      "Many are blaming aircraft sewage, but no one knows
what the splatter is or where it is from."
      "Hamilton roofer Peter Lowe observed a two-metre (6
feet, 6 inch) wide strip of brown muck splattered across
the roof he was building in Te Awamutu
when he turned up for work on Tuesday," September 23, 2003.
      "'I've been doing this for 17 years, and I've never
seen anything like it,' he said."
      "He is the latest in what is emerging to be a string
of victims."
      "Shonnie Gordon's Takapu Valley farmhouse, near Tawa,
Wellington," on New Zealand's North Island, "was showered
with muck on Sunday," September 14, 2003.
      "Certain an aeroplane was to blame, she called the
(New Zealand) Civil Aviation Authority.  Their tests ruled
out aircraft."
      "Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Sommer said
he received seven more calls from people in Christchurch,
Palmerston North, Wellington and Hutt claiming to have
been showered by gunk in the past month."
      "A number of farmers suggested ducks were
responsible, and an Auckland man said he had been showered
with what proved to be duck droppings."
      "Determined to get to the bottom of the mystery, Ms.
Gordon took her own sample to a laboratory for testing.
Sadly, the results came back inconclusive yesterday."
      "'I'm disappointed, but it's just one of those
things,' she said."
      "Another victim, who does not want to be identified,
has also come forward.  His family home on Paekakariki
Hill Road was hit 11 years ago."
      "While he searched the sky for the 'giant seagull,'
he quickly removed downpipes (drainpipes in the USA--J.T.)
from his roof, upon which he depended for water."
      "'It was analysed, and they said it was definitely
poo,' he said."
      "He never saw a plane but believes one was the
culprit as the substance had a chemical smell reminiscent
of the long drop (outhouse in the USA--J.T.) he used as a
boy."
      "Wellington Zoo Trust bird and reptile expert Geert
van Eyken said it was probably a flock of the biggest
birds in New Zealand, relieving themselves
in unison, that could have caused the latest messes."
      "'Birds also drop stuff when they fly...but if it
were birds, it would have been more spattered,' he said."
(See the Dominion Post of New Zealand for September 25,
2003, "More mystery showers of unidentified muck."  Many
thanks to T. Peter Park for this newspaper article.)


GALILEO ENDS ITS EPIC
14-YEAR SPACEFLIGHT

      "NASA's aging Galileo spacecraft deliberately plunged
into Jupiter's turbulent atmosphere Sunday," September 21,
2003, "bringing a fiery conclusion to a 14-year $1.5
billion exploration of the solar system's largest planet
and its moons."
      "The unmanned spacecraft, travelling at nearly
108,000 miles per hour, was torn apart and vaporized by
the heat and friction of its fall through the clouds after
it dove into the (Jovian) atmosphere at 2:57 p.m. Eastern
(USA) time."
      "At NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, hundreds of
scientists, engineers and their families counted down the
last seconds before the spacecraft ended its 2.8-billion-
mile journey from Earth."
      "'We haven't lost a spacecraft, we've gained a new
stepping stone in exploration,' said John Torrance, the
mission's project scientist."
      "Rosaly Lopes, another scientist on the mission,
called Galileo's descent 'a spectacular end to a
spectacular mission.'"
      "'Personally, I am a little sad.  I had the time of
my life on Galileo and I'm a little sad to say goodbye to
an old friend,' Lopes added."
      "Despite the glitches that plagued Galileo since its
1989 launch aboard the space shuttle Atlantis, it was one
of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's
most fruitful missions."
      "During its thrice-extended mission, Galileo
discovered the first moon of an asteroid, witnessed the
impact of a comet into Jupiter and provided firm evidence
of salty oceans on three of the planet's moons.
Scientists consider one of the three, Europa, the most
likely place in the solar system to harbor
extraterrestrial life."
      "Among the most stunning of the 14,000 images
returned by Galileo were those of the moon Io.  Galileo
caught some of the moon's more than 150 volcanoes actively
spewing lava and plumes of dust and gas."
      "'It had more surprises, better stuff waiting to be
discovered than we ever could have imagined,' said Andy
Ingersol, a Jupiter scientist at the California Institute
of Technology."
      "The last of Galileo's science measurements arrived
on Earth after the spacecraft was destroyed, taking 43
minutes to cross half a billion miles at the speed of
light."
      "'I just can't believe the spacecraft collected data
all the way in,' said a tearful Claudia Alexander,
Galileo's seventh and last project manager."
      "NASA initially considered leaving Galileo in orbit
after it depleted its onboard store of fuel, which was
used to trim its course on each of its 35 spins around
Jupiter."
      "Instead" NASA "opted to crash the 3,000-pound
Galileo to eliminate the possibility it could smack into
the watery moon Europa and contaminate it with any
microbes aboard.  Were Earth bugs to survive on Europa,
they could compromise future attempts to probe the moon
for indigenous life, scientists feared."
      "NASA intends to return to Jupiter in a decade with
another unmanned spacecraft called the Jupiter Icy Moons
Orbiter."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for
September 22, 2003, "Galileo ends its mission in a blaze
of glory," page 4A.)


MYSTERIOUS BLACKOUT
HITS SCANDINAVIA

      Another mysterious electrical blackout occurred last
week, this time denying power to four million people in
Denmark and Sweden.
      "A power outage left nearly 4 million people without
electricity in eastern Denmark and southern Sweden.
Utility officials said the outage was caused by a faulty
transmission line separating the two countries."
      "Power was being gradually restored after three
hours" of blackout on Tuesday, September 23, 2003.
"Trains in Denmark's driverless subway system stopped and
passengers had to be evacuated.  Flights to Copenhagen
airport were diverted to Sweden.  And the Oresund bridge
and tunnel, which connects Copenhagen to Malmo, Sweden,
was closed to traffic."  (See USA Today for September 24,
2003, "4 million lose power in Denmark, Sweden," page
14A.)


BETTY HILL IS AILING, SO
SEND THOSE LETTERS

      Betty Hill, "the world's first alien abductee, just
celebrated the 42nd anniversary of her abduction--and it
might be her last."
      "Friends of Betty Hill say the 84-year-old, who
currently lives in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, is suffering
from lung cancer."
      "That didn't stop her from recently celebrating the
42nd anniversary of her abduction," which took place near
Littleton, New Hampshire on September
19, 1961.
      "On that night, Betty and her husband, Barney, were
reportedly taken aboard a disc-shaped craft and given a
medical examination by a group of aliens," the Zeta
Reticulans.
      "Mrs. Hill claims her extraterrestrial examiners were
bald, big-eyed, only 5 feet (1.5 meters) tall but
otherwise looked human."
      "Most people don't like being probed, but Mrs. Hill
says the examination wasn't bad and told the E.T.s to stop
by anytime."
      UFO Roundup readers who want to send Betty a letter
or a get-well card can reach her at this address:

                    Mrs. Betty Hill
                    753 State Street
                    Portsmouth, NH
                    USA 03801-4554


 From the UFO Files...

1940: THE MAN WITH NO FACE

      If there's a Nostradamus Award for "Best Paranormal
Comedy," then Fortean writer/researcher John Michell is a
cinch to win.  And he'll win it with this tale...
      "A form of conspiracy theory was already well-
established among us, thanks to government propaganda.  It
was during the Second World War and spy mania was raging.
The public had been instructed to watch out for mysterious
strangers, lights, signalling and other indications of
enemy espionage.  This call was most warmly responded to
by schoolboys.  A popular tale in magazines of the time
was of brave boys unmasking a German agent, and a spy-
catching craze swept the boarding schools of Britain."
      "The authorities, not being readers of boys' comics,
had no idea what was going on.  Thus many odd incidents
passed unexplained."
      "At Wellesley preparatory school at Broadstairs, it
became obvious to the pupils that their Latin master was a
German spy.  He bore a peculiar resemblance to an
obnoxious gauleiter depicted in The Hotspur, and a skin
ailment had given his face the colour and texture of
putty."
(Editor's Note:  In commercials on USA network television,
this condition is sometimes called "the heartbreak of
psoriasis.")
      "It was therefore assumed he was wearing a mask."
      "Little Heathcote Williams, future poet and
playwright, took on the task of exposing him.  During
Latin class he rose from his desk, ran up to the master
and began scrabbling at his face."
      "It's a fake!" the boy yelled, "Let's see what you
really look like!"
      "Even as he did so, the absurdity of the whole thing
became suddenly apparent to him, but it was too late to
turn back.  The rest of the class urged him on with cries
of 'Spy!' until the master lost his nerve and bolted for
the door."
      "The headmaster was unable to make sense of what had
happened so no one was punished."
      Having the last word was Inspector Hugh MacBride of
the C.I.D.: "And there'll be no more of that, thank you
very much!"  (See the book Eccentric Lives, Peculiar
Notions by John Michell, Black Dog and Leventhal
Publishers, New York, N.Y., 1999, pages 62 and 63.)

      That's it for this week.  Join us next time for more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet
Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO
Roundup."  See you in seven days.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
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   Oct > Oct 1

             Presidential Candidate Offers Faith In Time Travel

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:31:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:10:50 -0400
Subject: Presidential Candidate Offers Faith In Time Travel


Clark Campaigns at Light Speed

By Brian McWilliams

02:00 AM Sep. 30, 2003 PT

Wesley Clark: Rhodes scholar, four-star general, NATO commander,
futurist?

During a whirlwind campaign swing Saturday through New
Hampshire, Clark, the newest Democratic presidential candidate,
gave supporters one of the first glimpses into his views on
technology.

"We need a vision of how we're going to move humanity ahead, and
then we need to harness science to do it," Clark told a group of
about 50 people in Newcastle attending a house party -- a
tradition in New Hampshire presidential politics that enables
well-connected voters to get an up-close look at candidates.

Then, the 58-year-old Arkansas native, who retired from the
military three years ago, dropped something of a bombshell on
the gathering.

"I still believe in e=3Dmc2=FF, but I can't believe that in all of
human history, we'll never ever be able to go beyond the speed
of light to reach where we want to go," said Clark. "I happen to
believe that mankind can do it."

"I've argued with physicists about it, I've argued with best
friends about it. I just have to believe it. It's my only faith-
based initiative." Clark's comment prompted laughter and
applause from the gathering.

Gary Melnick, a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian
Center for Astrophysics, said Clark's faith in the possibility
of faster-than-light (FTL) travel was "probably based more on
his imagination than on physics."

While Clark's belief may stem from his knowledge of
sophisticated military projects, there's no evidence to suggest
that humans can exceed the speed of light, said Melnick. In
fact, considerable evidence posits that FTL travel is
impossible, he said.

"Even if Clark becomes president, I doubt it would be within his
powers to repeal the powers of physics," said Melnick, whose
research has focused on interstellar clouds and the formation of
stars and planets.

Einstein's theory of special relativity says that time slows
down as an object approaches the speed of light. Some scientists
say that FTL travel therefore implies time travel, or being able
to travel to the future or the past.

Clark's comment about FTL travel came at the end of a long
answer to a question about his views of NASA and the U.S. space
program. Clark said he supports the agency and believes "America
needs a dream and a space program."

But Clark said the nation must prioritize its technological
goals and take a pragmatic approach to focusing its scientific
resources and talent.

"Some goals may take a lifetime to reach," he said. "We need to
set those goals now. We need to re-dedicate ourselves to
science, engineering and technology in this country."

Clark used his visit to New Hampshire -- which will hold the
nation's first primary election in January -- to demonstrate
that he hasn't forgotten the cyberspace activists who cajoled
him into running in the first place, as well as to introduce
voters to his views on a range of subjects.

"You have changed American politics, with the power of the
Internet, modern communications and committed people who care,"
Clark told a handful of supporters Saturday at the Draft Clark
movement's New Hampshire headquarters in Dover.

At the brief meeting prior to a noisy noontime rally on the
steps of Dover's City Hall, Clark met some of the New England
organizers of the Internet-based movement for the first time.
Those are the supporters who had worked for the past six months
to convince the former general to seek the Democratic
nomination.

Clark's visit to the humble office -- the first opened by the
nationwide draft movement-- came just 10 days after his decision
to enter the race, and amid reports that some members of the
draft have felt cast aside as Clark's official campaign swings
into full gear under the control of seasoned political
organizers, many with connections to former President Clinton.

But Dover resident Susan Putney, one of the four founders of the
Draft Clark movement, said she had no hurt feelings. According
to Putney, organizers of the draft have offered to stay on, or
to turn over their infrastructure to Clark's official Little
Rock, Arkansas-based campaign, whichever the campaign chooses.

"They're the professionals," Putney said. "I'm just a business
person, I'm not a politico. We got him to this point, and we'll
let the best team possible field it to carry him through."

At this early stage of his campaign, it was obvious that Clark
sometimes still leans heavily on the Internet-savvy volunteers
who convinced him to run.

The rally in Dover, which was attended by around 300 people, was
first publicized on the New Hampshire Draft Clark (now re-named
New Hampshire for Clark/04) website and drew supporters from all
over New England. The audio engineer who donated his services
for the rally's public-address system said he heard about
Clark's visit from the site. Even the placards waved by
supporters were printed up by the movement and bore the words
"Draft Clark 2004."

During Clark's last visit to New Hampshire on May 12, Putney
presented him with a stack of 1,000 letters collected through
the Internet and urging him to run.

But did the Internet draft really make Clark run, or would the
ambitious former NATO commander have thrown his hat into the
ring anyway?

"No question this draft movement was what convinced him to get
into the race," said George Bruno, a former Democratic National
Committee member and personal friend of Clark's. "They persuaded
him. We've never seen anything like this in politics before."







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   Oct > Oct 1

                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:18:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:14:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Gehrman


>From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:52:02 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>Thank you very much Colin. I suspect we may be on similar
>wavelengths when it comes to ET type technology and even
>the nature of ETs themselves. Free energy drive is certainly a
>thought away from standard, I would think, but yet maybe an
>explanation to consider. I know the Free Energy concept is
>a controvercial one so I wont go there now. However, I must
>ask the following. Atomic experiments go back to Project
>Manhattan. Thats about 55 years ago. Would ETs not have
>evolved or modified their propulsion/control systems to
>render them immune to interference from such sources ? I
>know this is speculation but we do tend to offer explanations
>for UFO crashes that dont have a factual basis. In the same
>way we talk about UFO crashes as if these were undeniable
>fact. Every crash story is thawrt with debate and accusations
>of cover-up, Roswell included. Dont get me wrong, I am not
>saying UFO crashes are ficticious. What I am looking for is
>just one crash incident that we, as the public, can regard as
>100% factual and unambiguious in order to set the baseline.

Noel, EBK, List,

At the present time there are no crash sites that can be
regarded as unambiguous or 100% factual, but the alien autopsy
crash site could qualify if anyone would bother investigating
it, other than my brother and me.

If you're so interested in finding a baseline site, then this is
the place you'll want to start. There's burned vegetation, an
impact site, a landing site and tons of unusual material that
has been identified by XRD as cristobalite, an indication of
extremely high heat (over 1400C). There is no other area in the
world where cristobalite can be found under these conditions or
in this concentrated a manner.

There are also two drawings of the site (directed by the
cameraman) depicting this material and also the design of the
craft that crashed. The detail and accuracy of these drawings
could not have happened by chance.

There are three witnesses who have testified that they saw a
burning craft heading in the direction of the site on the
afternoon of May 31, 1947, the day the cameraman states the
crash occurred.

By studying the AA footage we can also determine how these craft
are directed and controlled, and much about the nature of the
creatures who piloted the craft.

All everyone needs to do is open their minds to the possibility
that the AA is footage of a real event and actual debris.

I don't see why that's so hard since after eight years, there's
not one scrap of evidence that the AA is a hoax. There's a
religious dogma that the AA is a fraud, but like all religions,
there's little factual basis for belief, just blind faith.


Ed





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               Re: Photograph Copyrighted By Dr Gary Levine -

From: Tom  Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:12:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:15:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Photograph Copyrighted By Dr Gary Levine -


>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:03:25 +0200 (CEST)
>Subject: Photograph Copyrighted By Dr Gary Levine

>The MUFON UFO Journal July 1990, page 23, published a photograph
>showing two triangular-shaped UFOS. Caption said it was
>copyrighted by Dr Gary Levine, of Kingston, NY. "Additional
>details and photos to follow in a future issue of the Journal"
>the note finished. Unless wrong, I think no follow-up article
>was ever printed.

>In order to enter this event in FOTOCAT I would appreciate
>knowing the date and location of the case, as well as the name
>of the photographer. If there exists any reference for
>additional data, I'd appreciate receiving some information
>also.

>Finally, can some List member provide me (privately) the
>email address of Dr Levine?


Hi Vicente:

Dr. Gary Levine, former MUFON State Director for New York, died
a few years ago in an automobile accident. Perhaps, the present
MUFON representative would know what happen to Gary's files,
etc.

Tom Benson






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   Oct > Oct 1

                          Filer's Files #40 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:28:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:31:37 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2003



Filer's Files #40 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer,  Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 1, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --
My website is at:http://www.georgefiler.com/
Sponsored by: http://www.filer.isotonix.com/

SIGHTINGS CONTINUE - SIMILAR DISC PHOTOS FROM US, CANADA AND UK

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate: The missing
link is missing "suggesting a creator for homo sapiens, Mars -
 Arthur C. Clarke says, "Mars has vegetation," Maine -
 triangular cluster of lights, New York - fighters try to shoot
down UFO? New Jersey - two triangle shaped UFOs, Florida " four
triangular objects, Kentucky - strange vanilla star-like light
descends over yard, Tennessee - disc video investigation, Kansas
- ongoing sighting, Washington - UFO photo of disc, Canada
abduction and sightings continue, Mexico - silver-plated
spheres, England - UFO video at air show, and Netherlands - huge
cigar sighted, Watch for UFOs in the movies, and Japanese
mystery UFO Armada seen in 1938. I'm sorry to report that Betty
Hill the first reported abductee is ill.

"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it
is time to reform." Mark Twain

MISSING LINK IS MISSING "SUGGESTING A CREATOR FOR HUMANS

Der Voron, author of the book "Starcraft" reports in Pravda News
- Scientists cannot find the "Missing link," that was an
immediate ancestor of the original Homo Sapiens, referred to as
the Cro-Magnon man; while they found and continue finding
remains of many less advanced forms that existed previously. The
remains of the immediate ancestor that evolved into Homo
Sapiens, should be found. The remains of Neanderthal, which is
not the Homo Sapiens=D6 ancestor, existed at approximately the
same time. Evolution takes many generations, and the next
generation has more representatives of a species than the
previous one. The probability of finding remains increases with
the number of generations and greater numbers of beings. If
scientists cannot find such a form, while they find many less
advanced forms, this may mean for 99.9% that this form never
existed, and that the original Homo Sapiens was genetically
engineered. By whom? I believe the answer is evident: by
certain intelligent beings, of extraterrestrial origin. If we
assume these intelligent beings were of terrestrial origin, i.e.
were non-human intelligent species who lived on the Earth and
who reached such a level of development that could engineer the
Homo Sapiens, then the situation will be yet more complex than
with the "Missing link," since no remains of any other
intelligent beings for those times were found. In addition, if
we assume they buried their dead so that no remains would have
been found, then how could they do that at the level they
reached befWore, i.e., when they were not as advanced as when
they buried their dead in the described way? Could they have
found and buried (burned) all of their dead? There should have
been more than enough, else how could they create such a
developed civilization that was supposedly able to biologically
engineer such species like Homo sapiens? Unless we assume that
intelligent octopuses or dolphins -- sea inhabitants -- could
have created a civilization and engineered an intelligent
primate.

Many scientists think that the creation issue is simply this:
Our existence, the universe and everything we observe was a
product of either: A. Creation =3D Intelligent design B. Chance or
Random Occurrence =3D Evolution. I don't think that, with the
level of science reached nowadays, scientists can duly discuss
and solve the problem of creation of the entire Universe
(galaxies, stars, planets, satellites etc.), but perhaps the
problem of emergence of life and intelligent life can be
discussed in the following way... Calculations show that the
chance for emergence of life and moreover intelligent life is
very low ("it is more likely that a hurricane could compose a
new Boeing aircraft from the fragments of a broken one lying on
the ground"). But the Universe is giant -- endless -- so this
chance did take place, and the life, and then the intelligent
life emerged. The civilization that was created by this
intelligent life -- we can call this civilization God -- began
creating life/intelligent life in other star systems (besides
what we call aliens' bases in star systems, or giant mother
ships), and maybe it was not only the life and bases that this
civilization created, but also some star systems, planets, their
satellites, quasars, etc. The issue here is that the Universe is
not only endless, but also eternal, and this means that the
process similar to the one descWribed above may have taken place
many innumerable times in its different innumerable parts.
Thanks to Pravada 19 Sep. 2003.
http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/10931_Voron.html

MARS - ARTHUR C. CLARKE SAYS, o MARS HAS VEGETATION" Arthur C.
Clarke says, oMars has a case of the munchies. That is, the red
planet is spotted with vegetation with some sort of life
feasting on the foliage.=D8 The noted sci-fi writer and space
visionary, made the claim during the 2nd annual international
conference on the space elevator, held in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Sir Arthur beamed into the gathering by satellite link on
September 13, 2003. When asked what destination he'd like to
travel to via the space elevator, Clarke said he was "ready and
willing" to journey to the red planet. "Mars is the obvious
place," Clarke said. "I'm now quite convinced that Mars is
infested with life. Mars orbiter photographs show huge areas of
vegetation. I don't think there's any doubt anymore on that. And
where there's vegetation, there will be something nibbling on
it," he said. Just as the audience was chewing on Clarke's Mars
life view, he added yet another bit of speculative advice --
 this time on cold fusion. "It's not cold. It's not fusion. It
may be tepid fission or something," Clarke said. "DWon't
laugh=A6but there's something going on there. Thanks to ["
mailto:ldavid@hq.space.com ]Leonard David and Bruce Cornet
http://www.space.com/astronotes/astronotes.html

NEW YORK - FIGHTERS TRY TO SHOOT DOWN UFO? FORT PLAIN

A triangle shaped object containing three bright lights was
viewed through an 8" telescope on September 12, 2003, at 8:40
PM. At a local star gazing session, we noticed a possible
satellite (no blinking lights) traveling west across the
southern sky 25 degrees above the horizon. I managed to catch
the object in an 8" Dobsonian reflector telescope and track it
off and on for over a minute. It had three bright lights
arranged in a triangular shape and p assed in front of the
startled behind it. We all thought it could have been the ISS or
a satellite, however, upon returning home, I checked NASA's J-
Track software for satellite obWservations at 20:40 and the only
objects remotely visible were 2 small orb comm satellites (FM7
and FM8). I had a good view with the telescope and have never
seen an object like this traveling east to west; since no
satellites travel in this direction.

FORT DRUM -- Some friends were outside watching satellites at 10
PM, and saw some explosions in the sky toward Fort Drum on
September 16, 2003. The witness states, oWe saw a flashing light
moving across the sky at a high rate of speed, changing
directions and stopping many times.=D8 Then it moves almost out of
site and then rapidly zooms over Ft. Drum. What looked like
several fighter planes attempted to follow it and more bright
orange fireballs appeared behind the UFO. We could hear jets
going to afterburners aWnd the object would zoom away again only
to return after several seconds to be fired upon again. Truly
amazing! The sky was clear and the Milky Way was clearly
visible. Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/
]UFOCenter NEW JERSEY - TWO HUGE TRIANGLE SHAPED UFOs.

WILLIAMSTOWN On September 19, 2003, a 16-year-old was up in his
bedroom watching TV when he heard a very odd noise, so he looked
out the window and saw a flying triangle with a light at each
point. The lights were a whitish-yellowish color. He states, oI
could clearly notice it had no wings and there was a weird blue
haze around this craft. It seemed to have equal sides on each
side of this triangle and if anything, it looked metallic. It
flew over my house so I went into the hallway to see out the
other side of the house. Then, I saw two triangle crafts with
the three lights one in front of the other. These crafts were
flying over Black Horse Pike and Cross Keys AirpoWrt. There are
always planes, but these were the only ones, The flying
triangles were VERY big. They continued flying away out of my
view.BRICK The witness was traveling east on Route 70 in rain at
3:30 AM, on September 13, 2003, and noticed the rain suddenly
stopped hitting his windshield, and then started back up after
about 1/10th of a mile later. The gap in rainfall lasted about
7-10 seconds, like it does when you pass under a bridge during a
storm. The sky was darker than normal here so he pulled over to
look towards the west. The witness states, oThe clouds in the
sky picked up the ambient light from the streetlights, and
against them I could see a much darker object, hovering over
Route 70. I couldn't gauge the exact size or shape, but my
impression was that it was huge. It seemed to drift towards the
south, and then I couldn't discern it anymore. There were no
overpasses or bridges in the vicinity for me to pass under, and
the trees did not overhang the highway. There was no sound and
no lights. Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/
]UFOCenter

FLORIDA FOUR TRIANGULAR OBJECTS WITH RED LIGHTS

ORLANDO - On September 17, 2003, at about 10:30 PM, a couple
were taking their dog for a walk and were looking at Mars, at
about 10:35 PM, when they saw a flashing white light moving
east. The wife discovered a second flashing red light that was
stationary directly below Mars. The first object was heading
directly towards the stationary object that had a red light
underneath. When the first object lined up directly over the
stationary object the two then began to move north. It wasn't a
satellite, because satellites do not make 90-degree turns. These
objects were very high up. We saw a third stationary object
flashing, and then a fourth. The two new objects were stationary
and the first two objects were heading directly towards them. At
this point we became very uneasy. The first two objects now
lined up with the two new objects and all four began to head
north. One object was substantially larger than the other three,
and they suddenly went black, and only the larger object was
visible. I doubt the military has anything that can hover in the
upper atmosphere, wait for the other objects to catch up and
then proceed. If there was ever a doubt that there is something
else out there we have now seen it with our own eyes. My wife, a
devout Christian, didn't want to see this. 10-15 minutes.
http://www.ufocenter.com/


UFO Center LAKE WORTH The witness was driving and saw three
orange orbs in a triangular formation on September 12, 2003.
Each one had the same dark orange color glow. The witness
stepped out of his vehicle and the orbs went behind a tree. Very
soon the nose light of the UFO triangle emerged. After a few
seconds the last UFO disappeared. The witness states, oI heard
no noise coming from these UFO's and no flashing lights. It was
pretty low to the ground, so low that if it were a plane you
would definitely see flashing lights of some kind. It was
heading from east to south. http://www.ufocenter.com/ UFOCenter

SARASOTA K. Dittman writes, oMy girlfriend was driving west
towards downtown at 7:50 PM on Friday, September 12, 2003, when
she saw a slow moving fireball with an inch long trail.=D8 She
called me from her cell phone, and asked me to go outside to see
if I could get a photo of the fireball. She stated, oIt moved
too slow to be a plane or a bolide and remained in sight for
eight minutes. It had a reddish pink glow to it. Our home is
located out by interstate 75 and I was unable to view this
object. When she returned a short time later, I was still
outside looking around. When she got out of the car, she pointed
up at Mars and said the object was ten times bigger in size than
the planet and was the strangest thing she ever saw. [
mailto:exe1moving@hotmail.com ]exe1moving@hotmail.com

KENTUCKY - LIGHT DESCENDS OVER YARD

Corbin The observer was out on the deck star gazing around 9 PM
on September 17, 2003, a beautiful bright, vanilla star about
the same size and color of Mars appeared very close overhead in
the north sky and started to smoothly descend towards me. It was
a steady light, moving deliberately and it did not seem to be a
falling star or comet. There was no noise. The speed at which it
descended is hard to describe, as it was as if it was a
controlled speed, not really fast or slow but very smooth and
deliberate. It came in so close to the yard it was level with
the high treetops. Although at fWirst I was mesmerized by it's
beauty, the closer it got to me, I became terrified, and ran
inside. I know this sounds crazy but it was as if the light
could sense my fear and retreated backwards until it faded from
view. It looked like a bright star with a hard, almost diamond-
like brilliant center surrounded by a softer glow of the same
color. The reason I got so frightened was was that I felt like
it would have come right down to me, if I hadn't gotten out of
the way. I live in the country near Daniel BoWone State Park.
Thanks to Peter Davenport U[ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]FOCenter
TENNESSEE - DISC VIDEO INVESTIGATION

Bruce Maccabee writes, "Kim Shafer videotaped a disc with a
cloud ceiling reported at 16,000 feet or 3 miles high If the
disc was at a 45 degree angle the slant range up to a height of
3 miles is 3/0.707 =3D 4.3 miles. At a 30-degree slant range would
be about 6 miles. If the clouds in the video were at 16,000 ft
and the object wasn't close to the clouds then it was several
miles away.  I don't recall a place in the video where it went
into a cloud, so I guess we don't know how high it was when you
videotaped it. But, if it were 1000 ft away it was about 1.5 ft
in diameter and if 16,000 ft away it was 16x larger or 24 ft.
Big for a child's balloon! Thanks to brumac@compuserve.com

brumac@compuserve.com

KANSAS - ONGOING SIGHTING

PHILLIPSBURG - A neighbor and her son were standing in their
front yard pointing to the sky. They said that they were
watching for a light that would be in one spot and then in a
totally different spot later that night and other nights. The
boy was told to watch by his high school science teacher, who
had been watching it for several nights. The observer writes,
oOn September 23, at 10:08 PM, I saw what I believe to be the
same light. The light was low and very bright (about the same
brightness as Mars but whiter) and flashing in the northwestern
sky at about 30 degrees above the horizon. The flashing light
remained constant in that position for an hour. Subsequent
nights since then have shown no lights (or stars) in that
position During this and all other nights, Mars was visible in
the southeast sky. Thanks to Jennifer Brown-Jacobs

NEW MEXICO - STRANGE BALLOONS

We were driving along I-20 and saw this 'object' way off in the
sky that just stayed in one spot. We were in no particular hurry
so we decided to see if we couldn't get close enough to identify
it.  We took some side roads and got close enough to see that it
was a huge tethered balloon. While we were stopped by a field,
the farmer said, It was a balloon with a radar on it to track
smugglers coming up from Mexico.

ALBUQUERQUE - Don Robertson reports, "It was stationary for at
least 30 minutes and was still hanging there the last time we
looked." We stopped our vehicle and sighted it over a fence post
for a while and it appeared to travel with us as long as we
drove straight west. It was many times larger than the lower
aircraft, silver white in color except when it was reflecting
the sun set and then it was red orange. The sky was cloudless,
so no clue about wind at that altitude. We lost sight of it when
we turned. My husband iWs an engineer (defense contractor) and
this was the first sighting that stumped his logic -- due to
size and height and length of time it just hung there. Also,
after sunset it resumed to a silver white appearance in a dark
sky which seemed to us to be self illuminating. It was maybe 50
X larger than stars & planets but it was the only object in the
sky other than the planes which were our frame of reference --
 it dwarfed them. Thanks to Don Robertson > GBR262@AOL.com [
mailto:GBR262@aol.com ]GBR262@aol.com

Editors Note: I have seen these tethered balloons in Florida and
Puerto Rico that carry radar antennas to locate low flying drug
running aircraft. Rumors persist that the Air Force, Navy and
DEA also have large blimp like craft that carry radar=D6s to plug
gaps in our radar air defense system.WASHINGTON UFO PHOTO

MT. RAINIER -- I have enclosed the photo I took while in the Mt.
Rainier area in August. I don't know if it is a UFO, so I leave
it to the experts. The photos were taken from inside a vehicle
thru the front window, but the objects appear to be solid and
not a reflection from inside. At the time I took the photo I did
not see the objects. There was nothing except mountains and
trees. Thanks to Vanessa Romero.Image


CANADA - MORE EVIDENCE TO ABDUCTION AND SIGHTINGS

KELOWNA - Investigator Brian Vike, below are three pictures I
received from the ladies who had the missing time in Kelowna,
British Columbia. Linda who was the passenger in the car that
night and had wounds on her body after a possible abduction.  In
the first photo, the wound had healed up somewhat, but it took a
turn for the worse and the results are shown in picture number
#1. I was told that the doctor is stumped due to not knowing why
the wound will not heal. Also, the doctor reports that he still
does not know what caused it. Let us hope the wounds completely
heal. Many thanks to the ladies for providing these pictures to
a very important event. Photos can be viewed along with the full
report at:

http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/kelowna_missing_time.htm


Thanks to: Brian Vike, Director CANADA HBCC Research

NEW WESTMINSTER, BC - Mark explains, "My wife spotted something
in the corner of her eye, on August 11, 2003." She went out on
the deck around 6:20 PM, and saw a round hovering object that
flipped, and turned bright blood red. She yelled, so I got my
got my new camcorder shot a saw a cigar shaped object over the
trees. I had trouble locating it in the viewfinder, as it was
flying very fast. I was shocked, I thought it was just a
balloon, but I wasn't laughing when I reviewed the tape. I'm
using a JOCK mini DV, GR-d90 camcorder; that shows a very
unusual craft. Thanks to Mark

BARRIERE - On September 10, 2003, a couple were outside
tending their farm animals when they saw a bright white light
heading directly in their direction that passed soundless over
them at 8:50 PM. They then heard a sound coming from the north
that was growing louder as it approached. He was so shocked
seeing a large silent bright white light, he never thought to
"try" to take a bit of footage. The witness got his video
equipment that he often uses to catch footage of forest fires
and as the sound from "something" eWlse drew closer, he started
shooting. He was surprised to see two large military helicopters
fly low overhead chasing the strange light. A large number of
Canadian troops are fighting forest fires throughout the
province. Recently, the media, and the general public were
taking pictures of a forest fire when the RCMP took everyone's
film away from them.

KAMLOOPS, BC - On September 18, 2003, at 7 PM, the witness saw a white
spherical object moving west that was about 3/4 of the size of a dime held
at arm=D6s length. Strong winds were blowing a thick lower cloud cover. It
was not yet dark, when the witness saw a perfectly round white object
moving slowly west above the lower cloud cover against the wind for about
45 seconds. Thanks to Brian Vike

http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html CANADA HBCC


MEXICO - SILVER-PLATED SPHERES

TIJUANA -- On September 10, 2003, at 3:30 PM, three silver-
plated spheres were spotted at a distance of 1 kilometer on a
sunny day by a family. Looking east the family saw three objects
approaching that appeared to be silverplated form of a sphere.
They observed the spheres for about 5 minutes that were flying
at only 200 meters of height. The witness thought the objects
were about 3 meters in diameter as they flew off towards the
south at medium speed.Tijuana The witness states, oI was
cleaning my dog on September 17, 2003, at 5:10 PM, when I looked
to the west and I saw a flying object 250 meters above a hill
that is about 1/2 mile away. It was gray and sometimes it
flashed brightly as it moved irregularly. It hovered for several
minutes and instantly disappeared leaving a momentous trail
pointing to the south. Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.ufocenter.com/ UFOCenter

ENGLAND - UFO VIDEO AT AIR SHOW GOODWOOD FESTIVAL -- Santiago
Yturria writes, "On September 5, 2003, at the Revival air show,
two aircraft were flying in formation above the crowd when a
disc entered the formation at 1:35 PM. Aviation expert Don
Berliner informs me that he identified the aircraft as a US Navy
F4U Corsair, and a P-40 Tomahawk fighter in Chinese Flying Tiger
markings. The disc is about one third the size of the P-40, that
has a wingspan of 37.3 feet or about 12 to 13 feet. The disc may
be closer to the camera and its size maybe smaller. Simon, a 29-
year-old from West Sussex was filming the event with a JVC Hi-8
PAL camcorder and his images are excellent. The maneuvering UFO
indicates it operates with its own propulsion system and could
have caused a dangerous collision as an unknown metallic brown
disc passes from right to left close to the airplanes at
moderate speed. Simon made a great zoom to the object and it's
shape and size was clearly revealed. The disc impressed Simon
and the crowd. Thanks to Santiago Yturria and Jeff Rense. The
film is at http://www.rense.com/general41/flying.htm

GLOUCESTER - Four light brown/red oval objects seen in the sky
flying from northeast on September 4, 2003, at 10:23 PM. The
object was the same size as Mars in the night sky, but without
the glare. The object was a trapezoid with a craft/light at each
corner. The rear two objects accelerated to the front and seemed
to touch. The craft made absolutely no noise.

LIVERPOOL, WALLASEY -- A housewife claims that the area is a
hotbed of UFO activity. Nikki Limb is the newly appointed Wirral
representative of the Merseyside Anomalies Research Association
(MARA), which was set up in 1996 to investigate and research
UFOs and other strange incidents. She says UFO sightings are
extremely common in Wirral and many are regularly reported to
her. She also claims to have seen UFOs herself. "There have been
lots of recent sightings," said Nikki. "We log each sighting and
interview the people who report them. We check flight paths and
make sure no planes were flying over when the object was spotted
because sometimes planes wings can catch the light and distort
the shape of the aircraft. "If we think it's something that
can't be explained we look into it" furWther and try to find
more witnesses. If we can't verify the sightings we don't record
them." Witnesses are interviewed and each incident is looked at
with an open mind. Nikki said: "We meet monthly to discuss all
the group's findings. We're not saying that what people are
seeing are flying saucers -- they could be something completely
natural or even something from the military.

"We get a lot of reports of objects rising out of the Mersey so
we think that the water has something to do with all the
sightings in the area." One of the strangest of MARA's incidents
occurred on August 24, 1997, when a black sphere rose out of the
river.  MARA founder Tony Eccles said: "Most of the things
people see are explainable, they look mysterious but can mostly
be identified. "However, there are areas in Wirral that seem to
have more sightings than most places. There are quite a lot of
sightings in Bidston and several people have seen them while
they are driving on the M53."

www.thisiswirral.co.uk/wirral/birkenhead/news/BIRKENHEAD_NEWS12.html
9-26-3 Thanks to Jim Hickman WATCH FOR UFOs IN THE MOVIES

In the "1999" Movie "Arlington Road" with Jeff bridges and Tim
Roberts there is a scene when they are in the backyard arguing
and if you look over the shed in the background you can see very
clearly a small, white, oval, shape move very quickly across the
screen. oJAWS=D8 has two streaking objects, below the cloud layer,
in the original film, immediately following the discussion of
the sinking of the U.S.S. Indianapolis toward the end of World
War II, the three actors move from the cabin of the fishing boat
to the deck. In rapid sequence, two small, brightly lighted
objects are seen streaking across the sky behind one of the
actors. The objects probably are not meteors since they would
create a sonic boom that would have been evident, and the actors
did not flinch. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

JAPAN - 'MYSTERY ARMADA' WATCHES JAPANESE PLANESTokyo, Jan. 27,
1938.--(AP) -- The Japanese navy spokesman said Thursday a
mysterious aerial armada "apparently of considerable size" had
been following and observing operations of Japanese planes in
China.   Thus far no aerial combats between the mysterious,
unmarked armada and Japanese craft have been reported, but the
spokesman said there were several instances in which Japanese
planes had pursued the phantom observers. "In such cases," he
said, "the mystery planes fled. We were unable to locate their
base." Bismarck Tribune (Bismarck, North Dakota) Thursday,
January 27, 1938


NETHERLANDS - HUGE CIGAROn September 21 at 7.15pm a huge cigar
shaped object was seen above Zwartewaterland, Overijssel,. An
amateur astronomer watched  the object through his professional
Oberwerk 11x70 binoculars on a tripod for almost 20 minutes. The
object flying at a height of about 7 km looked like a small
letter 'l' without the loop, and had on the right bottom a small
hook. The object was yellow-red colored. At the end of the
sighting the witness noticed two small star-like lights beneath
the object, who went on in turns, with an interval of 2 seconds.
These intelligent-behaving lights moved away from each other,
and next moved back to each other for several times. According
to the astronomer, the object could not have been a satellite,
ISS, plane, weather balloon or whatever. The object movedW very
slow, even slower then a  satellite, almost floating. It finally
moved out of sight. Thanks to Toine Trust Site Admin UFOPlaza -
 UFOPortal  site: www.UFOPlaza.nl mail: [
mailto:ganzEgal@UFOPlaza.nl ]ganzEgal@UFOPlaza.nl

BETTY HILL - WORLD'S FIRST ALIEN ABDUCTEE SUFFERING PORTSMOUTH,
N.H. -- Betty Hill a wonderful 84-year-old women is suffering
from lung cancer. That didn't stop her from recently celebrating
the 42nd anniversary of her abduction, which happened September
19, 1961. On that night, Betty and her husband, Barney, were
reportedly taken aboard a disc-shaped craft and given a medical
examination by a group of aliens. Hill claims her E.T. examiners
were bald, big-eyed and only about 5 feet tall but, otherwise,
looked human. She's going through chemotherapy for lung cancer
and asks you send donations to American Cancer Society
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/DON/don_0.asp


PINE BUSH N.Y. Vinny Polise writes, oThe hottest area on the
East Coast for UFO and paranormal activity is located only
forty-five minutes away from New York City.=D8 For decades
hundreds of UFO sightings and their occupants have been seen
throughout the Hudson Valley, that seem to originate from the
Pine Bush area, the Northeast UFO capital of the world. A new
Web site has been created to document the activity. We ask for
your help in reporting UFO sightings. A support group is in the
area. Please contact Vinny Polise at: Sightings@pinebushufo.com
New site at http://www.pinebushufo.com


WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN YOU BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATEGet your
free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent to help you buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this
report e-mail me at: Majorstar @aol.co

NEW JERSEY CONFERENCEPat Marcatillio is holding The Great UFO
/ET Congress in Bordentown, NJ on October 4 and 5th at the Days'
Inn. Speakers are: Dolores cannon, Dr. Hans Holzer, Dr. T. Peter
Park, Budd Hopkins, Rob Swiatek, and Rick Fisher, Details are
at: http://www.drufo.org.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. "The MUFON
Journal is now accepting qualified advertising, please call 1
(303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.Regards,


George A. Filer
http://www.georgefiler.com/










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Jacobson

From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:52:10 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Jacobson


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:32:59 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:31:03 -0800
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

><snip>

>>>Some find it hard to believe that a spacecraft flown by
>>>technically advanced races could be prone to interference or
>>>malfunction.

>>>Random noise can occur in transistors and other semiconductor
>>>devices. Any electric device which receives electromagnetic
>>>radiation will pick up random noise as well as signals.

>>>An article in the Los Angeles Times (11/9/1987) stated that
>>>routine radio wavs can knock the Army's most advaanced battle
>>>transport helicopters out of the sky.

>>Please guys, what are these "well documented UFO crashes?" I am
>>unaware of any. The most extensively investigated case - Roswell
>>- is far from conclusive. Not to mention where is the physical
>>evidence of all these crashes?. Or do you believe that they only
>>crash in places where the US can go and retrieve them before
>>anyone else gets any evidence? That really strains credulity.


>The 1967 Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia incident is just one of these
>well documented. With this particular UFO crash, it was not UFO
>investigators that decided that to label the object that crashed
>off shore a "UFO" but the numerous official government, military
>and RCMP documents uncovered from the archives and through
>Access to Information requests that called it that! There are
>many living witnesses to this UFO crash, many of whom played
>major roles in the attempted recovery operation (which
>eventually involved the U.S. and the interest of the Soviets
>too). Of these witnesses, there are some so disturbed by what
>they saw and experienced that refuse to discuss it with people
>other than their immediate families and closest friends. Unlike
>the Roswell UFO crash, thanks partly to the quick response by
>the Canadian navy which allowed for a rescue and repair mission
>(by the ETs themselves?) to go ahead with little interference,
>this UFO crash had a happier ending. Further details about this
>UFO crash - and the province wide UFO flap - leading to it can
>be found in Don Ledger's and Chris Styles' book 'Dark Object'.

>>Not that I don't believe there are ET craft in the Earth's
>>atmosphere. That actually is well documented.

>>The idea that we can compare their craft to ours, to
>>'transistors and semiconductor devices' and 'EM' fields is
>>exactly like some pre-industrial natives somewhere seeing a
>>stealth bomber fly over and thinking that it must work like a
>>boomerang.

>>Why would you supposed that a technology which might be
>>thousands or tens of thousands years ahead of our own could be
>>understood in terms of our primitive devices?

>>Anthromorphocentrism.

 I do not think it is anthromorphocentrism if
>we assume that future technologies must also have a basis in
>electricity and magnetism - much like our ancient technology did
>too (eg. the "Baghdad battery" is thought to have been used to
>produce light or to electroplate metals; the magnetic compass
>helped our ancestors avoid getting lost; etc.).

Nick,

If you really believe that an alien science thousands of years
in advance of our own will use our concepts of "magnetism" and
"magnetic field" then you have an astonding faith in our current
level of insight into the physical world.  You must be aware of
current attempts to devise a version of "string theory" that
would collapse our currently divided understanding of the "four
forces" (electromagnetism, gravity and the strong and weak
nuclear forces) down into a unitary phenomenon.  As soon as that
is achieved "magnetism" will be merely a folk concept.

Also I am not aware that any hard evidence that Shag Harbor was
a 'crash' in the sense that the craft was unable to leave.  Has
someone recovered parts of it?


Best wishes,

Eric







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 1

                     Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:00:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:55:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Colvin


>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:13:04 +0100
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:56:13 -0300
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>Hi Stan and List

>It would seem to me that the questions raised at first post and
>subsequent theoretical answers all seem very valid indeed to
>prompt such detailed further inquiry. As this is a discussion
>forum then a discussion is good.

>Stan, you ask for our proof of what we say, as do others, and
>also wish us to explain ourselves based on detail knowledge of
>which we have spent much time and a great deal of expense with
>sometimes risking our lives to obtain. As most folk know of what
>is discussed, because they too do very good research, I don't
>think answering pointed questions on minor details is wise or
>called for.

>If folk want to lead our research or find out details then we
>all must agree that some incentive must be given for us to do
>so. Disincentives are not the way to obtain information so that
>will be the answer to your questions.


How much discussion of Philip Corso's book, The Day After
Roswell, has taken place on this List. I archived a few comments
made just after the books came out in 1997.

Crashes provide the only tangible material to work with beyond
the poor record of photographic material and a mountain of
anecdotal 'data.'

Terry


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992,
Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@mindspring.com >
   Alternate: < fortean1@msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
   U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
  TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]






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   Oct > Oct 1

                     PRA - Could We Ever Be Time Lords?

From: John Auchtl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:09:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:01:06 -0400
Subject: PRA - Could We Ever Be Time Lords?


Source: The AGE

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/30/1064819914937.html

October 1, 2003


Could we ever be Time Lords?

The prospect of time travel has, for long, caught the
imagination of many. Stephen Cauchi attempts to find out how
realistic it really is.

Stephen Hawking, the famously disabled British physicist whose
book, A Brief History of Time, brought cosmology to the masses,
turned 60 last year. Scientists marked the occasion by gathering
at Cambridge University to discuss the vexing issue of time
travel.

"Most physicists view time travel as being problematic, if not
downright repugnant," says New Zealand relativity expert
Professor Matt Visser, citing the well-known paradox of a time
traveller killing his grandmother in the cradle. But he concedes
there is no mathematical proof that rules out a time traveller
changing the past. "Is chronology protected? Despite a decade's
work, we don't know for certain."

It is easy to write off time travel as Dr Who-style science
fiction. But at least one detailed model for a time machine has
forced physicists such as Hawking to try and find some
"chronology protection conjecture" that would ban time travel
into the past. As the laws of physics permit cause-and-effect
mix ups such as the grandmother paradox, there is something
about our understanding of the universe that is lacking.

Furthermore, time travel into the future, in small amounts, is
already commonplace. Einstein's special and general theories of
relativity, written in 1905 and 1916 respectively, showed that
superfast speeds or strong gravitational fields could warp time
like a bowling ball on a rubber sheet. The higher the speed, or
the stronger the gravity, the greater the warp (known
technically as dilation).

Orbiting satellites, for example, travel at about five
kilometres per second. This is enough to cause their clocks to
run fractionally slower than those on Earth, and over time the
difference builds up. "These clocks undergo time dilation
because they're moving through space and they're at a different
point in the gravitational field," says Dr Hugh Luckock, a
senior lecturer in mathematics at Sydney University. "When
they're designing these satellite global positioning systems,
they have to allow for time dilation or they'd get totally the
wrong results."

Time travel, as portrayed in the movies, is an extreme version
of this. In The Time Machine, the hero takes only minutes to
travel years into the future. He sees clocks in the outside
world move super-quickly. But if outside observers were able to
watch the clock on his control panel, they would see it move
super-slowly. Eventually, the clocks are decades apart.

"We know that going into the future as far as you like is
allowed by the theory of relativity," says Paul Davies, popular
science author and professor of natural philosophy at Macquarie
University. "It's something that depends on money and not on
physics."

--------------------

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1064819924314_2003/09/30/paul_da
vies,0.jpg

Going into the future "depends on money and not on physics, "
says Paul Davies, popular science author and professor of
natural philosophy at Macquarie University.


--------------------

For that reason, theoretical physicists are focused, instead, on
unravelling the mysteries of travelling backwards in time, not
forwards. While allowed by Einstein's theories, it is extremely
contentious. Travelling forwards in time merely requires that
one travel very fast. Travelling backwards in time involves
exotic and dubious feats of engineering.

Davies outlined the most popular backwards-in-time model, a man-
made variant of a black hole called a wormhole, in his 2001 book
How to Build a Time Machine. Black holes are formed from large
stars that have burnt out and then imploded. Making a time
machine out of them requires building a pair of linked black
holes, known as a wormhole. The wormhole would be, literally, a
portal into the past.

American physicist Kip Thorne in the mid-1980s first examined
how this might be done, and Davies' book outlines how 21st-
century technology might build one.

Firstly, a minuscule wormhole would be created in a particle
accelerator, a synchrotron-like structure such as that at CERN
in Switzerland or Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York.
Secondly, the wormhole would be inflated and maintained using
as-yet-undeveloped "exotic matter" such as antigravity. Thirdly,
one mouth of the wormhole would be whirled around in the
particle accelerator at close to the speed of light for a decade
to establish a time dilation difference between the two wormhole
mouths. Bring the two mouths back together, and - presto! - one
back-in-time machine.

This model has certain limitations: the earliest one could
travel back to would be to when the wormhole, and its "exit"
mouth, was built. This rules out travel to, say, World War II,
and explains why tourists from the future haven't arrived.
However, such a machine faces spectacular engineering and
philosophical problems. "My money would be on the fact that it
probably couldn't be built, but I couldn't say that for sure and
I don't think anyone else could say it for sure either," says
Luckock.

"No-one can say the physics says it's not possible," says Dr Leo
Brewin, a senior lecturer in mathematics at Monash University.
"What is problematic is the sense of scale... the energy
required to construct wormholes is enormous. It's hard to see
how one could go about making them."

Professor Ray Volkas, a researcher of theoretical particles at
Melbourne University, said the engineering challenges of
building wormholes are "extremely considerable". "Einstein's
general relativity can allow this wormhole-type situation (so)
it's worth thinking about . . . it's still an open question as
to whether this sort of gizmo is possible."

Great though the engineering obstacles are, they are dwarfed by
the philosophical objections, such as the grandmother paradox.

Even if only signals can be sent back in time, similar problems
result. Suppose the time machine is hooked up to an explosive
device placed next to it, which can destroy the time machine if
the right radio code is sent. The code is sent through the
machine at 3am, aimed at 2am - one hour before. If the device
explodes, and the machine is destroyed at 2am, how could the
code have been sent at 3am? The results are nonsensical. Yet
relativity theory, which has remained foolproof for nearly 80
years, allows for back-in-time travel. No proof has been devised
which rules it out, although scientists in experimental fields
such as superstrings or quantum gravity may find one.

"Stephen Hawking has a thing called the Chronology Protection
Conjecture, which basically says such things shall not happen
because we don't know how to make sense of them," says Brewin.

"You take the physics and cut it back and say even though the
equations and the mathematics say those things are allowed," as
humans we reject those sorts of solutions as nonsensical.

The most popular way round the paradoxes is the "many universes"
interpretation. This holds that the universe - as suggested in
the Gwyneth Paltrow film Sliding Doors - is consistently
splitting off into a myriad of alternative universes. Travelling
back in time and killing your grandmother poses no paradox under
this scenario.

At the exact moment you arrive back in time, the universe
splits off into many universes: the one in which we know your
grandmother lived, and others in which she may or may not have.

The time traveller, by going back in time, is condemned to enter
one of these parallel universes and is forever unable to meddle
with, or return to, his "home" universe.

Not everyone buys the many-universes theory, including Brewin.
"It seems to be too complicated that at every stage you and I
make a decision, the universe cleaves off into something
different to keep everything consistent... I feel uncomfortable
with that.

"What I prefer is the alternative, which is that in any time
travel, whatever changes you make will not have a consequence
back in the future." In other words, time travel into the past
may be permitted, as long as a paradox is not created.

No matter how you look at it, travelling back in time is
inherently unsatisfactory. But until a Chronology Protection
Conjecture arrives that makes the world safe for historians, it
is a field that theoretical physicists will continue to pursue.
"It's not serious because there's a bunch of us who really think
we're going to build a time machine," Davies says.

"It's serious because we feel it's important to know what is the
causal structure of spacetime."

~End~

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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   Oct > Oct 1

               Re: OSI Reports In Project Bluebook Archives? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:40:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:36:52 -0400
Subject: Re: OSI Reports In Project Bluebook Archives? -


>From: Keith Chester <projectbluebook@erols.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:41:38 -0400
>Subject: OSI Reports In Project Bluebook Archives?

<snip>

>The National Archives has 94 reels of micro-film, dating from
>1947 through 1969. These reels are, of course, copies of the
>original records which are also at the archives, but are not
>available for review. There are also a few miscellaneous boxes
>>for some reason, not on the microfilm.

>Some of the hard copy records are from the Air Force Office of
>Special Investigations (OSI) and apparently on the micro-film
>too. I'm just a little confused by why some records are not on
t>he micro-film. It also puzzles me why these original files can
>be reviewed, but the records on the 94 rolls of micro-film are
>not available.

>There are boxes of the 4602 Air Intelligence Service Squadron
>for review in original form. There are boxes for review marked
>"artifact" case files.

>I'm confused by the inclusion of the OSI reports within Project
>Bluebook records. That is, why would the OSI hand over their
>records, especially if they were conducting an investigation on
t>heir own, to the Bluebook personnel? Why wouldn't they, the
>OSI, have their own set of micro-film? If the OSI operatives
>were working on a case with Bluebook personnel, or visa-versa,it
>seems to me that each party would have generated their own
>report. This would be normal intelligence agency protocol. What
i>s known about the lack of these OSI records? Or, was the OSI
>instructed to hand over all UFO reports to the Project Bluebook
>data base?

>Finally, were there three separate groups, Bluebook, OSI, 4602,
>conducting UFO investigations, separately and together, with
>pretty much an unorganized system of filing, poor operational
>procedures and a lack of co-ordination with each other?

Actually the BB staff did very little investigating. The Zamora
case, which has been discussed on this list, is of the few that
actually involved BB staff investigation (Quintanella himself
investigated). Most of the witness interviews and direct
investigations were done by the OSI personnel and in some cases
by the 4602. When it was decided to preserve the records of BB
proper, as I recall, the AF decided to make a "clean boob of it"
and include the UFO portions of the OSI files.  Hence you find
the microfilm of OSI investigations following the proper BB
files.






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   Oct > Oct 1

                             Cold Fusion Update

From: Terry Blanton <blantont@rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:52:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:50:05 -0400
Subject: Cold Fusion Update


EBK and listers,

The 10th annual International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF10)
was recently held in Cambridge, MA with some remarkable results
including live demonstrations and a report on college interns'
positive cold fusion results.  Lots of pictures and many of the
papers presented are available at:

http://lenr-canr.org/iccf10/iccf10.htm

We are also beginning to see "silence of the skeptics" as more
evidence is presented.  Indeed, Sharon Begley accuses scientists
of neglect in her 9/5/03 report on ICCF10 in the Science Journal
section of the Wall Street Journal:

(This article is copyrighted by the WSJ and is presented here
for list users only and should not be reproduced off-list)

Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's Just Withering from Scientific
Neglect

by Sharon Begley

"Well, were here, " said physicist Peter Hagelstein to the 150
scientists at the 10th  International Conference on Cold Fusion
in Cambridge, Mass., last week.  "Many people in the scientific
community feel we should be shot."

That, actually would be a big step up for the beleaguered
community of cold fusioneers.

It has been 14 years since two little-known electrochemists
announced, at the infamous news conference on March 23, 1989,
what sounded like the biggest physics breakthrough since Enrico
Fermi produced a nuclear chain reaction on a squash court in
Chicago.  Using a tabletop setup, Stanley Pons and Martin
Fleischmann, of the University of Utah, said they had induced
deuterium nuclei to fuse inside metal electrodes, producing
measurable quantities of heat. (Deuterium, aka heavy hydrogen,
has one proton and one neutron in its nucleus.)

Although nuclear fusion is supposed to be impossible at
temperatures much below those in the sun or a hydrogen bomb, the
Utah duo said they had managed the feat at room temperature.

That was the opening bell for one of the craziest periods in
science. Cold fusion, if real, promised to solve the world's
energy problems forever.  (There is enough deuterium in sea
water to provide electricity for millennia).  Scientists around
the world dropped what they were doing to try to replicate the
astounding claim.

Some did, most didn't.  When a US Department of Energy
investigation concluded in November 1989 that cold fusion was a
mirage born of bungled measurements and wishful thinking, the
field become a pariah.

Yet the cold fusioneers persist.  In  paper after paper last
week, scientists reported that when a metal, usually palladium,
absorbs huge amounts of deuterium into its atomic lattice, the
result is more heat than plain old electrochemistry can explain,
as well as particles thought to be by-products of nuclear
fusion.

Some of the most extensive work has been at the Naval REsearch
Laboratory, whose scientists found both excess heat and a
telltale sign of fusion, particles of helium-4, in dozens of
experiments.  And Michael McKubre of SRI International, Menlo
Park, Calif., is still, after hundreds of thousands of
experiment-hours and $4 million, getting more heat from his
cold-fusion cells than can be explained conventionally.

Some of the most intriguing research is by physicist Steven
Jones of Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah.  Several years
before Prof. Pons and Prof. Fleischmann, he reported low-
temperature nuclear fusion, but virtually no excess heat.  That
made his cold fusion a big fizzle as an energy source, but much
more acceptable to science.

"The question I get more than any other is 'Are you still doing
this?," says Prof. Jones.  "The answer is yes, and what we are
seeing is very difficult to explain outside of cold fusion.  The
repeatability of these experiments now approaches 80%."
 Although he still detects no excess heat, the telltale signs of
nuclear fusion "make us conclude that we are seeing new
physics."

Although the persistence of the cold fusioneers makes skeptics
shake their heads, proponents see it differently.  "If there
were no effects and it were just experimental error," says Prof.
Hagelstein, associate professor of electrical engineering and
computer science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
"we should have figured out that by now  I don't think there is
any doubt about the existence of nuclear anomalies.  Excess heat
might be real, too."

Right about here, I would cite physicists explaining why Prof.
Hagelstein is wrong.  But I can't.  Almost no scientist outside
the ostracized community listens to its claims anymore, much
less critiques them.. It has been years since a major physics
journal published a paper on cold fusion.  Prof. Hagelstein
invited Some of the original critics to last week's meeting;
none showed.

Cold fusion today is a prime example of pathological science,
but not because its adherents are delusional.  Yes, it's
disconcerting that many of the experiments inexplicably and
unpredictably stop (and start) producing heat.  But the real
pathology is the breakdown of the normal channels of scientific
communication,  with no scientists outside the tight-knit cold-
fusion tribe bothering to scrutinize its claims.

"If you 'know' that cold fusion is impossible, then you don't
have to pay attention to these results," says Prof. Hagelstein,
an award-winning DOE physicist before being ostracized for his
work in the theory of cold fusion.  "The initial criticism was
that people needed to do the [heat measurements] right, but now
that some groups have spent millions of dollars doing just that,
the critics still won't read the papers."

I, for one, would love to hear smart physicists explain why the
excess heat from the deuterium-filled palladium reflects not
nuclear fusion bu t the release of mechanical energy - sort of
like letting go of a stretched spring.  I'd love to see a smart
critique of a 2002 paper by Japanese scientists, published in a
Japanese physics journal that few American scientists see,
describing (shades of medieval alchemists) the transmutation of
elements through cold fusion.

What these claims need is critical scrutiny by skeptics.  That's
how science normally functions.  But in cold fusion, it isn't.
 And that's the worst pathology of all.

<end>








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   Oct > Oct 1

                  Review: Human Devolution By Michael Cremo

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:47:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:53:01 -0400
Subject: Review: Human Devolution By Michael Cremo


HUMAN DEVOLUTION Michael Cremo

review by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html

Cosmologists such as Frank Tipler argue that human existence is
an inexplicable anomaly unless the universe was specifically
constructed to enable our presence. Others seek out less
religiously fraught explanations, postulating multiple universes
and an as-yet undisclosed "Theory of Everything." But while
theoretical physicists and astronomers attempt to unravel our
origins, disturbing evidence that we might be more than the sum
of our physical parts is dismissed, filed away, systematically
expunged from mainstream discourse. In "Human Devolution," the
sequel to "Forbidden Archaeology" (co-written with Richard L.
Thompson) Vedic scholar and archaeologist Michael Cremo takes us
on a fascinating tour of neglected knowledge, with topics
including mysterious fossils, problems with the prevailing "out
of Africa" hypothesis for human origins, telepathy, and UFOs.
Exhaustively researched, "Human Devolution" is a daunting but
thoroughly compelling attempt to redefine what it is to be
human, frequently as engaging for what it leaves to the reader's
mind as it is for unearthing revelatory bits of secret
knowledge.

Cremo asserts that Darwinian evolution is flawed insofar as the
complexity of living things, particularly humans, suggests an
overriding order of awareness and intent not found among the
molecules and synapses of materialist science. Drawing from
ancient Indian Vedic creation accounts, Cremo argues that matter
coincides with a subtle cognitive faculty (mind) and a distinct
conscious component (spirit) that transcends the other two. In
this sense, humans are "devolved" entities blinkered by our
relatively low standing in what Cremo terms a cosmic hierarchy
of various beings at differing stages of enlightenment.

If you think all of this smacks of creationism, you're
absolutely right. But unlike authors of Fundamentalist "Creation
Science" tracts, Cremo is honest in his presentation. To be
sure, Cremo takes issue with mainstream evolutionary thought --
 but given the archaeological enigmas cited in "Human
Devolution's" encyclopedic prequel, what objective person can
blame him? Something vital is missing in our understanding of
our origins; the reality of Cremo's Vedic alternative to
Darwinism is not so much a conclusive explanation as a rallying
cry for embracing new ways of perceiving our universe. To that
end, Cremo devotes a lengthy chapter to cross-cultural
examination of world creation mythology, unveiling tantalizing
similarities to his Vedic template.

"Human Devolution" is not without shortcomings. While its
constituent chapters are vastly informative when taken
individually, Cremo shirks the admittedly daunting task of
synthesizing them into a sensible whole; the concluding chapter
-- so brief as to be almost flippant -- is essentially
regurgitated Vedic creation myth that will leave most readers
wanting to sink their intellectual teeth into something more
palpable. While aspects of Vedic cosmology indeed echo reports
of nonlocal consciousness, "alien" encounters and even Big Bang
theory, subscribing to Cremo's nakedly sincere metaphysical
ontology is a leap of faith. Then again, Cremo tells us as much.
Again, it is "Human Devolution's" studied honesty and plainly
stated iconoclasm that make this tome a valuable contribution.

Like a handful of other works that attempt to explain it all
(Michael Talbot's prescient "The Holographic Universe" springs
immediately to mind), "Human Devolution" is both an invitation
and a riddle; I predict it will achieve a significant measure of
underground superstardom among discerning readers of the occult.
But the real issue is Cremo's potential impact on the dominant
materialist paradigm. Will 21st century science dare to accept
"Human Devolution's" call for a new epistemological perspective,
or will Cremo's work be forever consigned to the ever-growing
canon of "forbidden" texts... ?


=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)






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                  Sighting Reports From HBCC UFO - 09-30-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 02:46:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:03:39 -0400
Subject: Sighting Reports From HBCC UFO - 09-30-03


Terrace, British Columbia

Date:  September 30, 2003
Time:  8:52 p.m.
email report.

A very low flying disk with a very high speed roughly estimated
40-60 meters high. The round object was of a dim white light and
disappeared, I was facing west, +- 30 degrees to the north from
my position. It was visible for a count of 4 seconds only.

Thank you to the witness for the report. ( Also under
investigation since a saucer shaped craft was just reported).

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research.

------------

Burnaby, British Columbia

Date:  September 28, 2003
Time:  approx: 8:00 p.m.
email report.

Hi,

I wish to know if you had any reports of a sighting which I
believe it to be 3 nights ago (Sunday. p.m.) at approx: 8 p.m. I
saw a light too low for satellite and the object was heading
west to east. No noise, and it was a very calm night. The object
moved erratically, fast then slow and wobbly. It only had one
bright light. Helicopters would have made some noise and
aircraft would/should have nav lights. The motion didn't seem to
jive as an aircraft. This was in the South Bby area.

Any one else see this??

Thanks,

-----

A little more information:

Hello Brian,

The light was just like a satellite traveling through the sky
and could not make out any object, too low for a satellite.
Looking at the size of mars that night almost looked closer! We
viewed it for a minute...60 sec literally. I thought the object
just disappeared but cannot confirm. Perhaps it was the light
that disappeared, which is all I saw. I called transport Canada
and they had not received anything. I know it was not a plane or
chopper. The light was relatively clear and wind was very calm
that night.

Thanks for the other feedback.
Regards,

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research.

-----------
Airdrie, Alberta

Date:  September 26, 2003
Time:  8:33 p.m.
email report.

Hi,

I noticed an article in the Airdrie Echo the other day, and
wondered if you had an explanation for something my daughter and
I saw on Friday night (Sept 26) at 8:33 pm.

We were looking to the west of the big dipper, and saw what
looked like an exceptionally bright star (brighter than anything
I have seen before)  .  We were trying to figure out if it was a
planet or something, and it just dimmed out to nothing in a
matter of about 10 seconds or less.  It didn't move at all, just
dimmed to a faint point, then we couldn't see it anymore.

It didn't move across the sky like a 'shooting star' , but did
fade out in probably the same amount of time.

Any suggestions?

More information:

Hi, Thanks for your response. No, there were no clouds in the
sky, and it stayed in exactly the same spot, but just dimmed as
we were watching it.  We had just looked up at the same time and
both noticed it when it was really bright, and both just watched
it as it got dimmer and disappeared, as it was so strange that
it was doing that.  Like I say , it was gone completely in about
5 or 10 seconds.  I know the time was 8:33, as I just got a call
on my cell phone, as I was looking up.

We were facing north, and it was just west of the big dipper.
 It looked to be about the same distance away from the dipper,
as the stars appear in that constellation. (if that makes any
sense to you )

We are close to the flight path for Calgary airport, but as I
say, it didn't move, and there was no sound.  We've watched lots
of satellites and seen the space station, but it wasn't like
that.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research.

----------
Yarrow, British Columbia

Date:  Early August 2003
Time:  Midnight
email report.

Hello,

I am writing to you in regard to the light beam you report on
your site. I would like to add the following. In early August (
It was sometime after the east coast blackout and prior to the
Mars approach of August 27) my wife and I were parked beside the
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
com:office:smarttags" />Vedder River at Yarrow BC to observe
Mars. The following occurred: At approximately midnight to the
northeast we observed a very bright aurora. It was the brightest
display I have ever observed this far south and the following
day the news reported it had been seen as far south as
California.

Between midnight and one am we noticed a band of light as you
describe. It stretched from the northern horizon (Sumas
Mountain) to the southern horizon (Vedder Mountain). It was
about the width of a finger held at arms length and was self
luminous. We watched it for some time until it dissipated. That
night the moon was either full or nearly so. Although we did not
use them to observe the light beam we had with us an 8"
refractor, 7x50 binoculars and a Cannon digital camera.

I am an experienced amateur astronomer and private pilot having
sent many hours observing both the day and night sky over the
years. I have never seen anything like this previously.

Sincerely,



Thank you to the witness for the report.



Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research.



Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
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               Re: CCCRN News: Update - Steelman, Saskatchewan

From: Paul Anderson <psa@cccrn.ca>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 07:40:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:05:32 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: Update - Steelman, Saskatchewan



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

October 1, 2003

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


UPDATE - STEELMAN, SASKATCHEWAN FORMATIONS

Initial field reports and additional photos and diagrams have
been added for the two Steelman, Saskatchewan formations, two
single circles a few miles apart which were a virtual carbon
copy of each other. Simple but impressive, with some interesting
ground features.

http://www.cccrn.ca

Also...

Another update, 'Confirmation of New UFO Type in the Sky', from
Ed and Kris Sherwood of Millennium Research, regarding the
"flying tray" anomaly at the Wallacetown, Ontario formation,
with photos of a similar unusual object taken at Lake Isabella,
California, USA in 1999...

http://www.rense.com/general42/confirm.htm

Previous Jeff Rense article on the "flying tray", 'Strange
Object Captured in Crop Circle Photo':

http://www.rense.com/general41/circle.htm

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the
subject line to: cccrnnews@cccrn.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating
and documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other
possibly related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating
a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, media and
scientists

C. CCCRN, 2003





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                          Secrecy News -- 10/01/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 15:32:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:08:18 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/01/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 83
October 1, 2003


**      NOT ALL LEAKS OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ARE CRIMES
**      PAST PROSECUTIONS UNDER THE INTEL IDENTITIES ACT
**      A COURT VIEWS THE REPORTER'S PRIVILEGE
**      SECRET DETAINEE CASE PRESENTED TO SUPREME COURT


NOT ALL LEAKS OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ARE CRIMES

The current controversy over a suspected Bush Administration
leak of the name of an under cover CIA officer has inevitably
been accompanied by false or misleading claims, including
erroneous descriptions of the requirements of the laws on
classified information.

A September 26 story from NBC News/MSNBC was the first to report
that the CIA had asked the Justice Department to investigate the
leak.  Along the way, the story stated:

"Revealing the identities of covert officials is a violation of
two laws, the National Agents' Identity Act and the Unauthorized
Release of Classified Information Act."

http://www.msnbc.com/news/937524.asp

This is a mistake.  The proper name of the relevant law is the
Intelligence Identities Protection Act.  There is no such law
called the Unauthorized Release of Classified Information Act.

And it's a good thing, too.  The NBC story "made it sound as if
we already had an Official Secrets Act in this country," leaker
par excellence Daniel Ellsberg told Secrecy News.

A congressional measure to legislate a generalized statutory
prohibition against unauthorized disclosures of any classified
information was vetoed by President Clinton on November 4, 2000
in response to widespread opposition from media outlets, civil
liberties organizations and others.

But the misapprehension persists.  Thus, according to a
front-page story in the Washington Post today:

"There are two federal statutes that could make the disclosure of
a covert CIA employee's identity a crime.  One concerns
unauthorized disclosure of classified information, and the other
specifically protects the identity of intelligence officers."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21389-2003Sep30.html

Again, there is no generalized statute prohibiting unauthorized
disclosure of classified information.

Attorney General Ashcroft put it this way in his 2002 report to
Congress on leaks:

"It must be acknowledged that there is no comprehensive statute
that provides criminal penalties for the unauthorized disclosure
of classified information irrespective of the type of
information or recipient involved."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dojleaks.html


PAST PROSECUTIONS UNDER THE INTEL IDENTITIES ACT

Speaking of errors, Secrecy News mistakenly advanced the notion
that there has never been a prosecution involving the
Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, which prohibits
the unauthorized disclosure of the identities of "covert
agents."

In fact, there has been at least one prosecution under the Act,
in the course of an espionage proceeding.

It was the 1985 prosecution of Sharon M. Scranage, a CIA employee
who was charged with disclosing agent identities to Ghanaian
intelligence officials and who pled guilty to two counts under
the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.  (Thanks to Paul
Wolf for pointing this out.)  See (scroll down to middle of the
page):

http://www.dss.mil/training/espionage/cia.htm


A COURT VIEWS THE REPORTER'S PRIVILEGE

While the rights and responsibilities of reporters are the
subject of current controversy, a D.C. District Court has issued
a new decision that elucidates the subject of the "reporter's
privilege."

"Under the First Amendment, reporters enjoy a qualified privilege
against compelled disclosure of sources and information obtained
through news gathering activities," the Court observed.

"The privilege is not absolute, however, and may be abrogated
upon sufficient showing by the party seeking the information."

The decision came in the matter of Linda Tripp, who sought to
overcome the reporter's privilege that had been asserted by the
Pentagon newspaper Stars and Stripes.  The Court upheld the
reporter's privilege at this stage.  See the text of the 28 page
ruling dated September 30 here:

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/01-157b.pdf


SECRET DETAINEE CASE PRESENTED TO SUPREME COURT

Several civil liberties groups have filed a petition with the
U.S. Supreme Court asking it to review an appeals court decision
that authorized the withholding of the identities of hundreds of
persons who were detained in the aftermath of September 11.

"It is the responsibility of the courts - and particularly this
Court - to provide meaningful judicial review when the
Government invokes national security to justify unprecedented
secrecy in exercising its awesome power to arrest and detain
hundreds of people," the groups wrote in their petition for writ
of certiorari in the case Center for National Security Studies,
et al, v. U.S. Department of Justice.

The appeals court decision, which denied access to the requested
information concerning the secret detainees, also significantly
expanded the doctrine of judicial deference to the executive
branch, to the detriment of the FOIA process.

A copy of the petition to the Supreme Court is posted here:

http://www.cnss.org/CNSS%20Cert%20Petition%20Final.pdf


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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                  Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2003 - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:40:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:10:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2003 - Stevenson


>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:28:02 -0400
>Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2003

>FORT DRUM -- Some friends were outside watching satellites at 10
>PM, and saw some explosions in the sky toward Fort Drum on
>September 16, 2003. The witness states, "We saw a flashing light
>moving across the sky at a high rate of speed, changing
>directions and stopping many times." Then it moves almost out of
>site and then rapidly zooms over Ft. Drum. What looked like
>several fighter planes attempted to follow it and more bright
>orange fireballs appeared behind the UFO. We could hear jets
>going to afterburners and the object would zoom away again only
>to return after several seconds to be fired upon again. Truly
>amazing! The sky was clear and the Milky Way was clearly
>visible. Thanks to Peter Davenport http://www.ufocenter.com


Comment and speculation;

If Fort Drum is in a built up area ( habitations ) then the UFO
must have been considered a high risk to be fired upon which
could have resulted in high civilian and/or Military casualties.
If it was a training exercise then the Military have UFO type
technology because the UFO came back for more.

Has anyone any other observations or comments?


Kind Wishes,

Col





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               Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:00:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:13:33 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Wilson


>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:33:31 +0100
>Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:38:33 -0400
>Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Stevenson

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:52:53 EDT
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Subject: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard?

>>The URL goes to a two picture display with a one paragraph
>>explanation of a photo of a 'Grey' wandering about a cemetary.

>>http://www.ghoststudy.com/monthly/sep03/crypt.htm
>>
>>Hadn't seen this one before and it ought to be a good one for
>>the 'Photoshop' experts.


>>Quite evident is the fatal injuries to upper right arm and upper
>left leg which reasons why the gray is a ghost.

>>Grimace.

>>Can't see any bags of steaming rice in that shot though?

>>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm < as in this one??!!

>>Col

I know this is all "tongue-and-cheek," but as I read the caption
that accompanied the photo, I found myself hoping he really did
see a Grey:

This hunter who "...is a technology buff and uses night  vision
goggles to traverse the terrain so [he] can be in the deer blind
at daybreak..."

I can only hope that this hunter really did see this Grey and
got everything else that goes along with the deal, (an anal
probe, 'medical' examination and a good "mind ----".)

Well, you know the term.

(I speak from experience - having lived in a place now for
almost four years where hunters do the most despicable things to
deer, raccoons, rabbits and other animals. These unfortunate
animals are not always killed by hunters for their "meat" and
"hides.")


- K. Wilson
(near Charlotte, North Carolina)






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             Re: Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:18:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:15:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:24:56 EDT
>Subject: Love-Hate Relationship With Debunkers/Skeptics

>I have a love-hate relationship with debunkers/skeptics.

>I enjoy a lively debate with a skeptic but loathe the pitiful
>and sophomoric rantings of the debunkers.

>Yet even the debunkers offer good sport now and then.

<snip>

>Recently I got into a debate with a top researcher at JPL on
>another listserv focusing on space technology. He's anti-ufo,
>anti-alternate energy, basically anti-anything that doesn't make
>him feel comfortable that someone else may be smarter.

>He ranted on about how anti-gravity and zero point energy were
>pipedreams and how anyone entertaining the ideas were UFO nuts
>and such and then proceeded to support his point that anti grav
>and zero point wouldn't work in outer space because outer space
>is a total vacuum with nothing to 'push' on.

Hello Greg:

Anti-grav and zero point energy may well be pipe-dreams, or not.

Your "JPL expert" blew it however with the notion that there is
"nothing to push on" in the vacuum of space.

Conventional rockets disproved that decades ago .. you don't
_need_ air or anything to "push against", you just throw
mass overboard (the higher velocity, the better of course)
.. the rest is Newton's action-reaction principle, as valid
today as it was centuries ago.

If anti-grav ever proves out, and I don't expect it to any time
soon, then it will not need anything to push against either,
unless it is the local gravitational field of the nearest planet
or star.

>Granted I'm no rocket scientist nor physicist but his statement
>did irk me and I told him so because from my viewpoint outer
>space isn't a total vacuum because the last time I looked
>someone had stuck a Universe in it.

>He shut up after that and his friends tell me he's still
>steaming.

Experts hate to be outed. Here's a "JPL Expert" who is
challenged by the simplest classical physics! Maybe he works in
the mail room.


Best wishes

- Larry







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                    Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:41:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:19:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hatch


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:08:27 +0000
>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:06:10 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

<snip>

>>>>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>>>In July or August, 1967, I, along with Jack Murphree, a local
>>>>Radio DJ, and Ralph Dorris, and Engineer for General Electric,
>>>>interviewed a Mr. Darrel Whitehouse, of RR?, Philpot, Ky.

>>>>Mr. Whitehouse advised us that he heard a sound of squeeling
>>>>tires on the road outside his house, so he went out to
>>>>investigate. The local teens used the straight stretch in front
>>>>of his house as a favorite place to drag race.

>>>>When he walked outside, he didn't see anything, so he sat to
>>>>smoke a cigarette. As he was setting there looking to his right,
>>>>down the road, he heard a "pop" and turned to his left, looking
>>>>diagonally toward his soybean field. He saw what appeared to be
>>>>"a barrel" shaped object rising vertically from his soybean
>>>>field. He said: "the object went straight up about a hundred
>>>>feet and then sort of fell over, level with the ground, and flew
>>>>flew off toward the north, toward Indiana."

>>>>He said he: "didn't hear no sound at all other than the pop."

>>>>When he went out to his bean field the next day, he found a
>>>>circle approximately 30 feet in diameter, which was devoid of
>>>>any live plants. The ground within the circle was dry and dusty.
>>>>The plants were brown and dry, but not burned as a fire would.
>>>>The plants outside the circle were normal. Ralph Dorris flew
>>>>over the field in a small plane and photographed the area.Date: Fri, 26 Sep
2003 20:07:52 -0500
>>

<snip>


>>I thought this would be easy. Wrong! I have no listing for
>>Philpot, KY even though it almost rings a bell. (Philpot is in
>>Daviess County, KY 86:59W - 37:44N ESE of Owensboro.)

<snip>

>>A scan of mid-1960s Kentucky records finds nothing similar,
>>a barrel shaped object rising from a farm field.
>>I hope this can be tracked down, I would like to catalog it.

>Larry,

>Mike and I have combined forces offline to pin down the date as
>Aug. 4, 1967, and the time as about midnight (which I would take
>to mean Aug. 4/5).

>I found it so recorded on a 3 x 5 card from the NICAP records

> - Dick


Hi Dick, Mike:

Wonderful!  I will make a record of this now that you have a
date. Its entirely new to me. The only records I had for that
date were 2 in Brazil (widely separated) and a third in Romania.


Best wishes and thanks

- Larry







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                        Copyright On UFO Photographs?

From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:00:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:22:55 -0400
Subject: Copyright On UFO Photographs?


In the past,I have received photographs of UFO/unusual phenomena
from witnesses and I have told them that they maintain full
control of how their photograph or video footage is presented to
the media etc.

As an investigator/enthusiast, I am not clear on this copyright
protocol and would be grateful if anyone from the List can
advise me on this issue and would be fascinated to hear of
anybody who experienced problems in such a situation.


Chris Parr
Nobody owns the skies






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                                   RIP GWB

From: Philip Mantle <suemantle@ntlworld.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:18:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:24:48 -0400
Subject: RIP GWB


Dear colleagues,

I just wanted to let you know that I have just returned from
attending the funeral of Graham Birdsall. UFO researchers from
all over the UK and overseas were in attendence to pay their
last respects. It was a fitting and emotional farewell to Graham
and may he rest in peace.


Kind Regards,

Philip Mantle







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              Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:52:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:09:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Stanford


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:00:44 -0500
>Subject: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories

>I've written a paper that's now posted on Mark Carlotto's web
>journal:

>www.newfrontiersinscience.com

>The paper shows images of the objects' flight paths that I
>generated using essentially the same overlay method that Mark
>did for his JSE paper. Some of the objects not only have curved
>trajectories showing that they were self-propelled, but at least
>two of them actually change course at times when no shuttle
>thruster was firing. I only looked a little farther in the
>direction that Mark's work was already pointing, so I can say
>with all modesty that these images are truly spectacular.

>I've also posted the paper on my own web site and started a new
>index page with links to the three articles I've already
>written. The URL:

>http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/index/shuttle-index.htm

>There should be more articles listed on this index page in the
>future. I intend to post some updates on the bizarre "time warp"
>in the STS-48 video time stamps and information on the shuttle
>relating to the videos. I may also post an article or two about
>the STS-80 video at some point.

>As much as NASA may want their "Candid Camera" problems to go
>away, they never will until NASA is prepared to address them
>honestly.

Nice job, Lan. I wonder who (anonymous or named) Oberg will next
claim chuckled on the telephone. :) That old ploy of his is
getting pretty stale.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery






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                   Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Christol

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:14:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:26:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Christol


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:41:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:08:27 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

<snip>

>>>I thought this would be easy. Wrong! I have no listing for
>>>Philpot, KY even though it almost rings a bell. (Philpot is in
>>>Daviess County, KY 86:59W - 37:44N ESE of Owensboro.)

<snip>

>>>A scan of mid-1960s Kentucky records finds nothing similar,
>>>a barrel shaped object rising from a farm field.
>>>I hope this can be tracked down, I would like to catalog it.

>>Mike and I have combined forces offline to pin down the date as
>>Aug. 4, 1967, and the time as about midnight (which I would take
>>to mean Aug. 4/5).

>>I found it so recorded on a 3 x 5 card from the NICAP records


>Hi Dick, Mike:

>Wonderful! I will make a record of this now that you have a
>date. Its entirely new to me. The only records I had for that
>date were 2 in Brazil (widely separated) and a third in Romania.


Hey Larry.

I have other cases which occurred in Daviess Co., Ky in the 70's
or earlier. I have several video interviews which I have kept to
myself. They are interesting to listen to, but only one other
may possibly be worthy of further consideration.

Perhaps I will post the details of that story sometime in the
future. Just an old country boy in Kentucky,

Mike







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                  Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?

From: Greg Bppne <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:00:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:28:59 -0400
Subject: Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?


I've always been perplexed at how we compare 'time' with
advanced technology. As stated above 'tens of thousands years
ahead of our own...'

Is there some reason we compare our own slow or fast developement
to someone else's?

Just because it's taken us humans 10,000 years to go from stone
axes to DVDs doesn't mean that it takes another community that
long. It may take longer, shorter or in spurts based on each
progressive cognition and application thereof or sheer dumb
luck.

We're talking 'problem solving'. That's what the issue is. How
fast one solves a problem and how fast one engages in an action
to avoid having a problem in the first place. To me, that's the
indicator of 'higher intellect' not one's technological
hardware.

Our history shows that even madmen can be technically adept yet
often create more problems than they intended to solve.

So from my viewpoint these collectives aren't 'years' ahead of
us, just able to exhibit applications of intellect that we
regard as advanced.

I submit, we've got people who'll drive a high tech ferrari 100 miles
just to punch their mother in law.

Seems like a great way to apply advanced tech.

If one is 'sane', one's first problem solving is to stay alive
and healthy for as long as possible. Shooting for immortality,
something present day exclosures in biotechnology suggests
aren't that far away.

That includes being able to maintain and construct physical bodies
that can withstand the challenges of predators, symbiotes, invading
microorganisms etc.

Once that's done, perhaps too much time on one's hands and
curiosity sets in on a grand scale.

If you could live forever would you get bored to death?


Best,

Greg







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                        Re: Ufology And Money - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:20:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:32:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology And Money - Boone


Okay, needed to get down to brass tacks.

Ever since I got into ufology I've had a ball. Been excited,
startled, amazed but never frightened.

Maybe it's because I grew up in and around the toughest
neighborhoods in the U.S.

Yet in all these years nothing alarmed me more than looking at
the bills of studying that came in during the mid to late 90s.

Astronomical.

Phone bills, flights, travel to and fro, archive fees, yadda
yadda yadda.

I would often get emails from professional ufologists who were
doing brilliant work in the field and needed funding for their
projects. I was shocked that these people were doing this on
their own dime and getting beat down with high end fees just
trying to help out humanity.

It's been a struggle getting some of you financing and I
had to bow in honor for those of you who handle it.

Lab tests alone can cost an arm and a leg. If you've pals at
labs like I have it's a favor but NOT independent peer reviewed.

What ironically gets me is I work in the comic book/animation/
film/tv field and every where I turn someone is making a big
buck off of UFOs, aliens etc. and I don't see any of that
flowing back to the people who are doing the nuts and bolts,
digging through the dirt researchers.

Case-in-point the most famous alien in our history fact or
fiction:

Superman.

I've got friends and family who work for DC Comics the
publishers of the 'Man From Krypton'. A dear friend of mine Doug
Moench who's written just about every major comic book hero
there is for over 30 years agrees. Many of you may know Doug
from writing 'Batman' for the past 12 years or so and also as
the author of the super popular " Big Book " series from
TimeWarner/DC Comics. Doug is an EXPERT in UFOlogy and that's
why we hit it off many years ago. I chat at length with him
about it and he 'knows' something that he's not telling but he
did slip up now and then.

I've also a friend Art Holcomb who's a long time
screenwriter/author of such shows as Remington Steel, Star Trek:
TNG and ventured into comics 10 years ago ( much to his dismay :
) yet is a powerful presence in Hollywood. We too chat about the
UFOlogy movement.

Art took me through the ropes of production, legals, socials,
etc. It's like government beurocracy from the wrong side of the
Land Of Oz.

I needle him now and then about helping get researchers I know a
leg up in the entertainment area bypassing the bs and shmoozing.
He is very accomodating with this too.

Some of you do get that break hopefully get duly compensated.
That should help with research.

What's frustrating to me most is the BEST UFO stuff has been
presented by UFOlogists pro and con and doesn't get the just due
as 'hollywoodized' versions and down right rip offs in my viewpoint
make the screens.

I also work in video games/pc/xbox etc. and there is HUGE room
for products and production but not enough coordination.

I for one would love to have a UFO related game or other products
that educate and add to the flow of capital necessary for further
sound research.

Luckily I've had some major gains in my field after taking a 6
year hiatus to handle church matters but now I'm back in the
comics/animation/toy licensing game and have 3 books of mine up
for developement. Also re-aquainting myself with pals in the
field. I promise to put a word in edgewise, send my colleagues
to all of your sites and express the importance that UFOlogists
who really are sincere and solid researchers should be
acknowledged and compensated and above all given the same
respect and recruitment for project developement as we do with
law enforcement and military who have adventures to share.

Recently someone on this List needed assistance with a project
and I gave it a shot and showed it to one of my high profile
colleagues.

I was suprised that it went over quite well so far so at least
one of you will be a happy camper soon. Stay tuned for that.

So one request, next time any of you ladies or gents are on
the air please emphasize the long hours, sacrifices you
undergo in the pursuit of this field of study so that the public
becomes more aware of how important and 'real' it is.

You never know who'll be listening and might want to lend a hand
or two or three?


Best,

Greg






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              Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:06:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:52:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Stanford

>Nice job, Lan. I wonder who (anonymous or named) Oberg will next
>claim chuckled on the telephone. :) That old ploy of his is
>getting pretty stale.

Thanks, Ray.

By the way, to avoid nit-picking (another ploy), I'd like to
point out that the 120-degree field of view I cited in the
article as the lower limit for a wide-angle lens is too high.
It's generally considered to be 70 degrees to 90 degrees.

Since I wrote the article, I've found several sources that give
a "normal" FOV as 45 to 55 degrees, or approximately the same as
the FOV of human central vision.

The STS-48 video was recorded by a camera with a 50 degree
diagonal FOV, right in the middle of the "normal" range, so
there shouldn't have been much more distortion of the image than
what you would see with your own eyes. For that reason and
several other reasons I gave in the article, it is extremely
unlikely that the curvature of the objects' trajectories was
caused by lens distortions.







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                       Re: Project Bluebook - Chester

From: Keith Chester <projectbluebook@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:07:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Project Bluebook - Chester


Hello List,

I previously sent a message regarding the Project Bluebook,
Office of Special Investigations, and the 4602 AISS personnel.
My posting was far from clear in presenting my points and
questions.

My question: Are there any known cases that MUFON, CUFOS, NICAP,
APRO, etc. investigated where the witnesses were interrogated by
Air Force personnel, who stated they were Project Bluebook
operatives, yet no Air Force records have been found to verify
such a claim?

If so, can you suggest some cases for me to review?


Thank you,

Keith Chester







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                  Yet Another New Image Of The Face On Mars

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:07:59 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:48:48 -0400
Subject: Yet Another New Image Of The Face On Mars


Cydonian Imperative
10-1-03

Yet Another New Image of the Face on Mars
by Mac Tonnies

Related links:

www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e19_r02/images/E20/E2001532.html


Malin Space Science Systems has revealed a new image of the Face
on Mars. This is the fourth such image that MSSS has acquired
and posted to its website since the "definitive" overhead photo
released in 2001. The new image shows a portion of the
"headdress" and the western ("simian") half of the Face, which
includes the "eye" and rectilinear "teardrop" features.

One may reasonably ask why MSSS appears so interested in the
Face. Dr. Mike Malin, operator of the Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC)
aboard the Mars Global Surveyor orbiter, is infamous among
Cydonia-watchers for his attempts to debunk notions of
artificiality at Cydonia as well as for citing the purported
difficulty of photographing the Face formation. The multiple
overpasses revealed in the MSSS online catalogue seem to
contradict Malin's public statements by indicating a sincere
interest in the Face - as well as confirming the Surveyor's
ability to acquire new Cydonia imagery "on demand." If the
recent release of the D&M Pyramid mosaic is any indication (see
previous page), then perhaps the newly unveiled Face image is a
harbinger of further long-awaited Cydonia images.

-end-







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               Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 02:11:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:14:16 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gates


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:21:31 -0700
>Subject: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested


>EBK, List,

>From time to time I've posted Alien Autopsy related information
>to UpDates as an ongoing attempt to keep this amazing footage in
>the public eye and on the minds of the researchers who reside
>here.

>I'm not a ufologist, but an investigative reporter and I write on
>many subjects other than UFOs:

>http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/reaction/reactindx.html

>But the AA piqued my interest eight years ago and I've been
>researching and investigating it ever since.

>There is now overwhelming evidence that my brother and I have
>found the crash site described by the cameraman.

>The XRD identification of cristobalite as the strange material
>covering the site should be all the proof required but there is
>more, so much more evidence at the site which could be analyzed
>and subjected to forensic examination. This would require a team
>of researchers, similar to the crop-circle investigative groups.
>There are more than enough talented and scientifically trained
>persons on this list to accomplish this task. If that can't
>happen, I'd at least like to take Wendy or other researchers who
>live in the area to the site so they can see how unusual and
>wondrous it is.

Am I remembering wrong? I thought that somebody sent some of
this so called strange material around to a few people including
Ray Stanford and it turned out to be Calcedney... which is not
strange or uncommon.


Cheers,

Robert






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                    Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:17:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:18:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident - Hatch


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:08:27 +0000
>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:07:52 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Mysterious 1959 Incident

>>>In July or August, 1967, I, along with Jack Murphree, a local
>>>Radio DJ, and Ralph Dorris, and Engineer for General Electric,
>>>interviewed a Mr. Darrel Whitehouse, of RR?, Philpot, Ky.
>>>[snip] .. he heard a "pop" and turned to his left, looking
>>>diagonally toward his soybean field. He saw what appeared to be
>>>"a barrel" shaped object rising vertically from his soybean
>>>field. He said: "the object went straight up about a hundred
>>>feet and then sort of fell over, level with the ground, and
>>>flew off toward the north, toward Indiana."

>>>He said he: "didn't hear no sound at all other than the pop."

>>>When he went out to his bean field the next day, he found a
>>>circle approximately 30 feet in diameter, which was devoid of
>>>any live plants. The ground within the circle was dry and dusty.
>>>The plants were brown and dry, but not burned as a fire would.

<snip>

>>>I took samples of the bean plants and the soil within and
>>>without the circle and sent them to NICAP.

<snip>

>>Hello Mike, Dick:

>>[snip] I have no listing for Philpot, KY ..
>>in Daviess County, KY 86:59W - 37:44N ESE of Owensboro.


>Larry,

>Mike and I have combined forces offline to pin down the date as
>Aug. 4, 1967, and the time as about midnight (which I would take
>to mean Aug. 4/5).

>I found it so recorded on a 3 x 5 card from the NICAP records

>- Dick

- - - -

Hello again Dick, Mike:

This case has some very interesting features.

1) A "pop" sound just before "takeoff", something unusual. A
hoaxer, having read UFO stories before, might conjure up a high
pitched whine, buzz .. but just a single pop?

2) The barrel-shape is not all that common, though it may have
precedents.

3) It rises vertically from a soybean crop, where it had
apparently landed to 100 feet. Then it tilts over lengthwise and
heads North.

4) Here is one of the very few "crop circles" I am inclined to
pay any attention to. Photos and Soil and plant samples taken by
Mike. I suppose its way too late to hope for some lab results.

5] The plants were suddenly brown and dry, but not burned like
in a fire.

The name Mr. Whitehouse rings no bells, I presume he is not a
repeat witness. There remains the possibility that the farmer
was the victim of a prank, especially given the squealing tires
he heard just prior to the sighing. Still, its hard for me to
visualize just how such a prank would be pulled off.

The behavior of the 'barrel' sounds unlike any balloon I know
about. Was there any indication how fast the object rose from
the field to its 30-meter elevation before taking off to the
North? If it merely drifted up like a balloon, it might have had
a string attached to provide the northward motion (assuming a
prank). If a prank, the pop could have been deliberate, to call
the attention of the witness.

Even if it was a prank, its out of the ordinary. I just now
listed the case with the coordinates above, date and time kindly
dug up by Dick and Mike, with credit to them of course.

One last question: If it was close to midnight, how did the
farmer discern the barrel-shape in a presumably dark field?
Having catalogued the case, I checked the Moon. That was in the
Western sky, 16-17 degrees over the horizon, but less than 2%
illuminated and waning... a very thin crescent indeed.

I find cases like this much more interesting than lights in the
night sky.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:19:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:19:38 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Hatch


>From: Scott C. Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard?

>Dear Col, List, et al--

>I think that you've missed something! Your photo of the grey:

>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

> ...certainly demands CLOSER inspection...! See here:

>http://www.apocalypsefiction.com/path2.jpg



Hello Scott, Col:

Now you have me wondering what's lurking in my grapefruit tree.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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              Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:25:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:49:21 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Stevenson


>From: Scott C. Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard?


>Dear Col, List, et al--

>I think that you've missed something! Your photo of the grey:

>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

>...certainly demands CLOSER inspection...! See here:

>http://www.apocalypsefiction.com/path2.jpg


>Hope this helps!!


Hello Scotty and Listers

Yes. Your rendition did help Scotty although it's too late now
to inspect as he seems to have beamed out  :-)

Hope that ET didn't enter my abode in that condition. Maybe he
needs to meet the Extra Terrestrial Hedge God, who appeared some
days later, to sort the problem out;

http://www.colsweb.com/HedgeGod.htm

Quite a likeness to Hitler or Tony Blair some say.


Kind wishes

Col







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman

From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:07:50 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:55:34 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:00:57 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:13:04 +0100
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:56:13 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

><snip>

>>It would seem to me that the questions raised at first post and
>>subsequent theoretical answers all seem very valid indeed to
>>prompt such detailed further inquiry. As this is a discussion
>>forum then a discussion is good.

>>Stan, you ask for our proof of what we say, as do others, and
>>also wish us to explain ourselves based on detail knowledge of
>>which we have spent much time and a great deal of expense with
>>sometimes risking our lives to obtain. As most folk know of what
>>is discussed, because they too do very good research, I don't
>>think answering pointed questions on minor details is wise or
>>called for.

I can't find the word "proof" in what I posted. A number of claims
were posted without any evidence or reference to any evidence.

>>If folk want to lead our research or find out details then we
>>all must agree that some incentive must be given for us to do
>>so. Disincentives are not the way to obtain information so that
>>will be the answer to your questions.

Why is asking for evidence of an unusual conclusion, or claim, a
disincentive? I have spent an enormous amount and money over the
past 40 years and refer to the results... about Roswell or Bob
Lazar or Guy Kirkwood etc etc.

>How much discussion of Philip Corso's book, The Day After
>Roswell, has taken place on this List. I archived a few comments
>made just after the books came out in 1997.

>Crashes provide the only tangible material to work with beyond
>the poor record of photographic material and a mountain of
>anecdotal 'data.'

It seems to me that Ted Phillips Physical trace cases provide a
great deal of tangible evidence as do physical markings on
abductees. I am still unaware of physical evidence from Roswell
that can be studied by us... which doesn't mean it doesn't
exist.

Pappy Henderson had some.

There are also many documents that can be studied and evaluated
as I have noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC, my "Final Report on
Operation Majestic 12", my "Review of Case MJ-12" See:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

etc.

Bruce Maccabee has certainly published interesting results from
his analysis of photographic data including McMinnville, The New
Zealand Case, etc.


Stanton T. Friedman






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                   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:15:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:05:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Stevenson


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:56:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:03:12 +0100
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>Without data how can you come up with a relatively small (or
>large) percentage of True UFO Crashes?

>>>Is it really possible that these alleged ET craft crash through
>>>nothing else than pilot error? How can this be if they have such
>>>apparently sophisticated technology.

>Why even suggest this? Data please..

>>>Something about these two questions does not feel right. It is
>>>not what one would expect from an advanced race, both mentally
>>>and technologically. Surely these ET pilots would have better
>>>judgement than to crash where they can be retrieved by us and
>>>their technology apparently reverse engineered.

>This seems to involve supposition on top of supposition. I have
>had a number of reports of our aircraft not returning after
>being sent up to intercept a flying saucer.

>We and the Soviets each shot down a number of the other
>country's aircraft during reconnaisance missions back more than
>40 years ago. It was many many years before this was admitted.
>Who says we have reverse engineered the flying technology?

>>>In comparison, we have flown to the moon and back with a very
>>>much more primitive machine so many times during the early
>>>space program, yet we have never crashed on the moon, have we?
>>>One thought that does come to mind to explain the high number of
>>>crashes and that is that maybe, just maybe, they have HUMAN
>>>pilots and that these crashing UFO are nothing else than our own
>>>technological creation. I wont take that thought further now, I'll
>>>leave it to the members to ponder and debate. However I do think
>>>that I have raised some valid questions in the above. We cannot
>>>take UFO crashes for granted and just accept them. It one thing
>>>viewing a UFO in flight, quite another to accept that they crash
>>>for no apparent reason.

>Who is it that is taking UFO crashes for granted? Some of us try
>to do our research by investigation rather than proclamation.

>>>I look forward to the List member's comments.

>>Not sure if this comment is of any use but look at the great
>>number and percentage of losses of Earth >Mars probes
>>over the years rather than merely the Moon probes/landings.

>>There is also some indicators that the ET propulsion is a great
>>deal different to our rockets etc and could be adversely
>>affected by some Earth environs or Human activities/equipment.
>>According to the Disclosure Project ET does not like radioactive
>>sources so this may be one of the factors in ET crashes. Free
>>Energy also does not like radioactivity, even very low levels,
>>so this may point to a Free Energy drive of ET craft too and may
>>actually explain the Roswell ET crashes ( previous atomic weapon
>>tests ).

>How in the world does the Disclosure project know what ET likes
>or what supposed free energy likes???

The Disclosure Project wants no atomic energy devises in space
and as its also allied to ET then we can presume that they don't
like it either.

From my own experiments Free Energy does not like even very low
levels of radioactivity eg luminous numerals of a watch.

>>There is also some pointers to the Reich deep well experiments
>>(excessively strong confined free energy upward emissions) and
>>very strong radar emissions being contributing factors for ET
>>craft crashes. The latter could account for incidences of ET
>>craft near radar, airports and prior to Earthquakes in that they
>>are trying out new tech or accustoming the pilot to these
>>confined unusual Earth environments.

>>All the forgoing presumes ET real, which I personally believe
>>they are, and/or that they are altered/advanced human life forms
>>and/or time travelers and/or from a different dimension to our
>>reality and/or any combinations of all four.

>>There is also some indicators that some ET may be telepathic,
>>control their craft by thought and are very distracted by some
>>Human's thought process's which could cause crashes maybe in
>>combination with the above.

>We have abductees indicating that ET's are telepathic... what
>data do we have to say they control the craft by telepathy?

Again from my own observations some ET indeed control their
craft by mind or thought and this control can be interfered
with.

No hard data here for you to dissemble and no scientific proof
either, mearly observations of an abductee with no proof of that
either.


Thanks,

Col







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              Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:28:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:36:36 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 02:11:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:21:31 -0700
>>Subject: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>Am I remembering wrong? I thought that somebody sent some of
>this so called strange material around to a few people including
>Ray Stanford and it turned out to be Calcedney... which is not
>strange or uncommon.

Robert,

Yes I sent samples of the material to several researchers for
identification. Ray was one of these and he did identify it as
agate. I then sent samples to be analyzed by XRD and it turned
out that the material was actually cristobalite, which is formed
at a different heat range (1400C). Cristobalite has never been
found under the conditions that exist at the crash site.


Ed







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                     Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:54:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:38:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Koch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
>Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions

>Is it me or did someone finally find out whether the Alpha
>Centauri star system has planets or not?

Dear Greg,

The star system of Alpha Centauri is a triple star system
consisting of the components Alpha Centauri A, B and C.

The component C is Proxima Centauri, the closest next star to
our Sun. C is far apart from A and B. The latter form a double
star system where A is a star similar to our Sun according the
spectral type (G2) and it is slightly more massive than our
Great Mother.

According to the laws of celestial mechanics, it is possible
that component A possesses up to 5 planets with stable orbits.
More outer planets wouldn't have stable orbits because of the
gravitational influence of component B.


All the best,

Joachim

------------------------------------
The Old Men have had their Old Wars in Old America -
Let's have New Men and Women creating Peace with New
America!
Dennis Kucinich 2004 - The new U.S. President!
------------------------------------
More Info: http://www.kochkyborg.de







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:34:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:48:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Lehmberg


>From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:07:50 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:00:57 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:13:04 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:56:13 -0300
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>><snip>

>>>It would seem to me that the questions raised at first post and
>>>subsequent theoretical answers all seem very valid indeed to
>>>prompt such detailed further inquiry. As this is a discussion
>>>forum then a discussion is good.

>>>Stan, you ask for our proof of what we say, as do others, and
>>>also wish us to explain ourselves based on detail knowledge of
>>>which we have spent much time and a great deal of expense with
>>>sometimes risking our lives to obtain. As most folk know of what
>>>is discussed, because they too do very good research, I don't
>>>think answering pointed questions on minor details is wise or
>>>called for.

>I can't find the word "proof" in what I posted. A number of claims
>were posted without any evidence or reference to any evidence.

>>>If folk want to lead our research or find out details then we
>>>all must agree that some incentive must be given for us to do
>>>so. Disincentives are not the way to obtain information so that
>>>will be the answer to your questions.

>Why is asking for evidence of an unusual conclusion, or claim, a
>disincentive? I have spent an enormous amount and money over the
>past 40 years and refer to the results... about Roswell or Bob
>Lazar or Guy Kirkwood etc etc.

>>How much discussion of Philip Corso's book, The Day After
>>Roswell, has taken place on this List. I archived a few comments
>>made just after the books came out in 1997.

>>Crashes provide the only tangible material to work with beyond
>>the poor record of photographic material and a mountain of
>>anecdotal 'data.'

>It seems to me that Ted Phillips Physical trace cases provide a
>great deal of tangible evidence as do physical markings on
>abductees. I am still unaware of physical evidence from Roswell
>that can be studied by us... which doesn't mean it doesn't
>exist.

>Pappy Henderson had some.

>There are also many documents that can be studied and evaluated
>as I have noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC, my "Final Report on
>Operation Majestic 12", my "Review of Case MJ-12" See:

>http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

>etc.

>Bruce Maccabee has certainly published interesting results from
>his analysis of photographic data including McMinnville, The New
>Zealand Case, etc.


Fellow motes;

Raising a point parallel to the points raised in this thread...
and with all respect to the contributors of same... this is an
attack on ideology not individuals.

General cries, admonitions, and protestations (regarding lack of
evidense) heard during a quarter of the time indicated by Mr.
Friedman (but that enormous amount of money forfeit just the
same...) testify to _my_ strong suspicion that evidence is not
lacking, rather, the abundant evidence available is too blithely
and complacently dismissed. Verily, the quality anecdotal
evidence, compounded with the vetted photographic evidence, and
then added to the extant historical evidence, gives _every_
 indication that a ufological contention regarding that evidence
_must_ be more real than not... Moreover, framed by the serious
artistic evidence, qualified by the actualized physical
evidence, and then compellingly convinced by the conclusively
personal evidence, I (and perhaps Mr. Friedman et al) can only
be annoyingly astonished by the continued reluctance of some to
face the highly strange music that just cannot be _forever_
marginalized...

The same invalidated questions, dissembling statements, and
prevaricating proclamations of noisy negativists year after year
after year... and always insinuated like they were new and valid
concerns raised the first time ever... this is the reason we
have gotten exactly *nowhere* in fifty some-odd years. It's not
New age spirituality, nor is it the freaky fringe... it's not
the crystal squeezers, not the non-scientific approaches, and
not my poetry that keeps us in the dark ages ufologically. These
have evolved to fill the needless void! No, it's the continued
allowance of an inability to get over the very first hurdle we
come to enroute to the future larger reality... whether the
phenomenon even exists or not!

Given the
_huge_ amount of evidence just iterated, the answer
(plus the attendant better questions!) becomes startlingly
obvious to a rational observer, and reluctance to accept it
becomes a stodgy, immature, and unbrave denial.

It 'exists' entirely as typified by Mr. Friedman and others, and
as long as the skeptibunky is favored to get his nose in the
funding trough over the qualified researcher (the fellow willing
to go where the data goes though heaven falls?), we are going to
-remain- on this artless and nonprogressive treadmill, eat our
ufological young, and get not one inch further along in the NEXT
fifty years. Mr. Friedman is a portrait of impossible patience
given his 40 years in the program... At ten, I'm getting ready
to raise the literary black flag and start cutting some
ideological throats!

We're not alone. Let's get over it and move on. Truly, the
reader can measure the outpouring and poignantly unending
appreciation for Mr. Birdsall against the fact of many quality
ufologists still _living_ to know that the concern and
consideration now wasted on Mr. Birdsall could be extended to
those remaining with us for more progressive effects, and I'd
bet Mr. Birdsall would have been first to say the same thing!

We've abundant, more than enough, evidence that UFOs and
Abductions are likely occurring to force our _sullen_ mainstream
to take a look. We don't. In the aggregate, we're not looking
really; we're only looking for more excuses to continue our
cowardly denial. Comments?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.






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               Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:55:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:13:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Smith


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:00:44 -0500
>Subject: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories

>I've written a paper that's now posted on Mark Carlotto's web journal:

>http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/index/shuttle-index.htm


Hello,

I am working through your paper and have a couple of questions.

First, you mention about the thruster firings and mention some
data you got from NASA. Can you post for the record the thruster
firing data (for all thrusters) for the relevent time period (I
imagine that the data is pretty sparse cause they didn't fire
that often but would be nice to see in print somewhere rather
than have to order it from NASA)? Is the data you are using the
thruster pressure levels and did you get it for the maximum
resolution of data?

Have you gotten from NASA the flight attitude for the time
period (not Oberg's "attitude variation") at the maximum data
resolution? If so can you post that data?

It is not clear to me how you determine the distance of the
objects. How do you know the objects are not inches to feet from
the lens?


Thanks!







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:42:00 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:15:47 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman


>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:15:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:56:13 -0300
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:03:12 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

><snip>

>>Without data how can you come up with a relatively small (or
>>large) percentage of True UFO Crashes?

>>>>Is it really possible that these alleged ET craft crash through
>>>>nothing else than pilot error? How can this be if they have such
>>>>apparently sophisticated technology.

>>Why even suggest this? Data please..

>>>>Something about these two questions does not feel right. It is
>>>>not what one would expect from an advanced race, both mentally
>>>>and technologically. Surely these ET pilots would have better
>>>>judgement than to crash where they can be retrieved by us and
>>>>their technology apparently reverse engineered.

>>This seems to involve supposition on top of supposition. I have
>>had a number of reports of our aircraft not returning after
>>being sent up to intercept a flying saucer.

>>We and the Soviets each shot down a number of the other
>>country's aircraft during reconnaisance missions back more than
>>40 years ago. It was many many years before this was admitted.
>>Who says we have reverse engineered the flying technology?

>>>>In comparison, we have flown to the moon and back with a very
>>>>much more primitive machine so many times during the early
>>>>space program, yet we have never crashed on the moon, have we?
>>>>One thought that does come to mind to explain the high number of
>>>>crashes and that is that maybe, just maybe, they have HUMAN
>>>>pilots and that these crashing UFO are nothing else than our own
>>>>technological creation. I wont take that thought further now, I'll
>>>>leave it to the members to ponder and debate. However I do think
>>>>that I have raised some valid questions in the above. We cannot
>>>>take UFO crashes for granted and just accept them. It one thing
>>>>viewing a UFO in flight, quite another to accept that they crash
>>>>for no apparent reason.

>>Who is it that is taking UFO crashes for granted? Some of us try
>>to do our research by investigation rather than proclamation.

>>>>I look forward to the List member's comments.

>>>Not sure if this comment is of any use but look at the great
>>>number and percentage of losses of Earth >Mars probes
>>>over the years rather than merely the Moon probes/landings.

>>>There is also some indicators that the ET propulsion is a great
>>>deal different to our rockets etc and could be adversely
>>>affected by some Earth environs or Human activities/equipment.
>>>According to the Disclosure Project ET does not like radioactive
>>>sources so this may be one of the factors in ET crashes. Free
>>>Energy also does not like radioactivity, even very low levels,
>>>so this may point to a Free Energy drive of ET craft too and may
>>>actually explain the Roswell ET crashes ( previous atomic weapon
>>>tests ).

>>How in the world does the Disclosure project know what ET likes
>>or what supposed free energy likes???

>The Disclosure Project wants no atomic energy devises in space
>and as its also allied to ET then we can presume that they don't
>like it either.

Is Disclosure talking about nuclear weapons in space or about nuclear
reactors such as have powered 3 dozen Soviet Space systems or  nuclear
devices such as the Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators that have powered
most of our deep space probes such as Pioneer, Viking, Galileo, Casini?? How
in the world is the Disclosure Project allied to ET? Do they have a pact? or
do you mean that the Project thinks some UFOs are ET spacecraft?

>From my own experiments Free Energy does not like even very low
>levels of radioactivity eg luminous numerals of a watch.

Are you saying that you have produced "free energy" and that somehow
radiation has upset the system?  Can you produce more watts per pound than
with  an RTG?

>>>There is also some pointers to the Reich deep well experiments
>>>(excessively strong confined free energy upward emissions) and
>>>very strong radar emissions being contributing factors for ET
>>>craft crashes. The latter could account for incidences of ET
>>>craft near radar, airports and prior to Earthquakes in that they
>>>are trying out new tech or accustoming the pilot to these
>>>confined unusual Earth environments.
>
>>>All the forgoing presumes ET real, which I personally believe
>>>they are, and/or that they are altered/advanced human life forms
>>>and/or time travelers and/or from a different dimension to our
>>>reality and/or any combinations of all four.

>>>There is also some indicators that some ET may be telepathic,
>>>control their craft by thought and are very distracted by some
>>>Human's thought process's which could cause crashes maybe in
>>>combination with the above.

>>We have abductees indicating that ET's are telepathic... what
>>data do we have to say they control the craft by telepathy?

>Again from my own observations some ET indeed control their
>craft by mind or thought and this control can be interfered
>with.

>No hard data here for you to dissemble and no scientific proof
>either, mearly observations of an abductee with no proof of that
>either.


I don't have any problem with there having been UFO crashes and
abductions a nd telepathy. I do have a problem with the claims
noted.

I, for one, am opposed to putting WMD in space, but am very much
in favor of using nuclear technology in space as appropriate.


Stan Friedman







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                         Life In The Goldilocks Zone

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:59:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:17:13 -0400
Subject: Life In The Goldilocks Zone


NASA Science News for October 2, 2003

Researchers are finding that life can thrive in some unexpected
places on Earth - and perhaps elsewhere in the Universe, too.

Full story at:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/02oct_goldilocks.htm?list159275







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                               Amazing Photo!

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:23:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:18:13 -0400
Subject: Amazing Photo!


Have a look at this whatever-it-s!:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031001.html


Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of trifles." --
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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                          Secrecy News -- 10/02/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:44:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:46:25 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/02/03



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 84
October 2, 2003


**      SOME LEAKS ARE GOOD LEAKS
**      WHITE HOUSE REJECTS FURTHER DECLASS OF 9/11 REPORT
**      LATEST FOIA RULINGS
**      PATRIOT ACT SUNSET CLAUSE COULD BE BROADENED


SOME LEAKS ARE GOOD LEAKS

Indignation, righteous or otherwise, continues to mount over the
reported Bush Administration leak of the identity of an
undercover CIA employee. The subject almost completely dominated
yesterday's White House press briefing:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/10/wh100103.html

Under the circumstances, it is easy to forget that not all leaks
are undesirable acts of political skullduggery. To the contrary,
for better and for worse, they are an essential component of the
overall economy of news and government information.

In many cases, leaks are the most expeditious remedy to
arbitrary or irrational government information policies.

For example, it is the position of the Central Intelligence
Agency that the national security of the United States would be
damaged if intelligence spending information from half a century
ago were publicly disclosed today.

No serious person believes this. But it is the official Agency
position, reiterated in a December 2000 Freedom of Information
Act denial letter (and now the subject of pending litigation):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia121400.pdf

Fortunately, however, the CIA's ability to impose its peculiar
concept of information security is limited. It is limited, among
other things, by other agency disclosures that are beyond CIA's
awareness or control.

David Barrett, a scholar of intelligence history at Villanova
University, found a number of documents on historical
intelligence spending in the course of his archival research for
an upcoming book on congressional oversight of intelligence in
the early Cold War era.

One of the documents he discovered in the papers of Rep. George
Mahon (D-TX), a member of the House Appropriations Committee in
the 1950s and 1960s, identifies the amounts of money (and lists
their "concealed" locations in the defense budget) that
cumulatively comprised the CIA budget for fiscal year 1953.

See the CIA's 1953 budget, courtesy of David Barrett, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/cia1953bud.pdf

This is not exactly a "leak" in the ordinary sense. But it is an
inadvertent disclosure of CIA information, unauthorized by CIA,
and containing information that the Agency has taken trouble to
keep classified, even to the point of litigating to uphold its
continued secrecy.

For such unauthorized disclosures, and the unauthorized
disclosers who disclose them, one can only be grateful.


WHITE HOUSE REJECTS FURTHER DECLASS OF 9/11 REPORT

In a letter to Senator Bob Graham last week, national security
adviser Condoleezza Rice dismissed for the foreseeable future
the possibility of further declassification of the report of the
congressional Joint Inquiry into September 11.

Based on their own knowledge of the classified report, several
Democrats and some Republicans had urged the declassification of
at least part of the censored 27 pages of the report concerning
possible foreign involvement in the 9/11 attacks. That section
reportedly addressed the role of Saudi Arabia. The White House
said that none of the material could be declassified.

The congressional dispute with the White House had the potential
to raise fundamental questions about national security
classification policy. But the opportunity was squandered when
the Senate Intelligence Committee decided it would not even
attempt to exercise its own declassification authority,
abandoning the field to the executive branch once and for all.
(SN, 09/15/03).

See the September 26 letter from Condoleezza Rice to Senator
Graham here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/09/wh092603.html


LATEST FOIA RULINGS

A compilation of judicial decisions in Freedom of Information
Act lawsuits around the country over the past three months has
been helpfully provided by the Department of Justice Office of
Information and Privacy.

See "New FOIA Decisions, July-September 2003" here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2003foiapost34.htm


PATRIOT ACT SUNSET CLAUSE COULD BE BROADENED

A new bill introduced in the Senate would expand the sunset
provision of the USA Patriot Act so that more of the Act's
surveillance powers would expire at the end of a five year
period. The bill applies to more than a dozen specific Patriot
Act sections that are not covered by the existing sunset
provision.

"Immediately after the Patriot Act passed, the administration
draped a cloak of secrecy around its use," according to Senator
Patrick Leahy (D-VT). "When lawmakers and citizens have
attempted to start a dialogue on Patriot-related issues, the
response has been to ignore, insult or derisively dismiss them."

With that in mind, Senator Leahy, Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) and
several other colleagues this week introduced The Patriot
Oversight Restoration Act of 2003 (S. 1695).

"It will allow Congress to re-examine some of the important
legal issues that abruptly confronted us in the weeks following
September 11, and to re-assess our efforts with the benefit of
hindsight and the luxury of time," Sen. Leahy said.

"In light of the serious concerns that have been raised, I think
it is appropriate for us to add some triggers to the law that
will force Congress to review and affirmatively renew these
authorities," said Sen. Craig. "That is what the Patriot
Oversight Restoration Act would accomplish, by sunsetting
additional provisions that are not currently set to expire.

See the introduction of the Patriot Oversight Restoration Act on
October 1 here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s1695.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






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               Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:07:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:49:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Smith


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:00:44 -0500
>Subject: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories

>I've written a paper that's now posted on Mark Carlotto's web
>journal:

>www.newfrontiersinscience.com

>http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/STS-48/index/shuttle-index.htm

I have taken a look at the relationship between video time tags
and thruster pressure data for STS-113. They seem to be within
two seconds, though I agree they do not seem to be exact.

To rule out a possible cause to the video, I think some more
understanding is needed of the effect of the thruster firing on
the environment around the Shuttle. It seems to me that when we
see the thruster firing, that we do so only because of the
particle concentration being so dense and proper illumination
conditions existing. However, although a majority of the
particles are projected in one direction, there is a cloud of
particles/molecules that is created which any nearby debris must
navigate through/be affected by. Sure it seems that once moving
the thruster droplets/particles would keep going away from the
STS, but I suspect that some of these become very small and
cloudlike.

It could be that these trajectories you are finding are the
consequence of this cloud of molecules (particles?) which do
_not_ show up on video because they are way to small. Such a
cloud I would supect as having drag consequences at least.







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              Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:23:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:51:03 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 02:11:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:21:31 -0700
>>Subject: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>>From time to time I've posted Alien Autopsy related information
>>to UpDates as an ongoing attempt to keep this amazing footage in
>>the public eye and on the minds of the researchers who reside
>>here.

>>I'm not a ufologist, but an investigative reporter and I write on
>>many subjects other than UFOs:

>>http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/reaction/reactindx.html

>>But the AA piqued my interest eight years ago and I've been
>>researching and investigating it ever since.

>>There is now overwhelming evidence that my brother and I have
>>found the crash site described by the cameraman.

>>The XRD identification of cristobalite as the strange material
>>covering the site should be all the proof required ...

<snip>

Ed Gehrman,

Sorry I've not had time to phone you to explain why the finding
of Cristobalite is UFOlogically meaningless, but in view of the
above statement, I must now comment on-list:

Please be reasonable, Ed.  You have no evidence at all of a UFO
crash. Cristobalite is a always a pseudomorph after Beta
Cristobalite, which transformation could not have occurred in
the open, surface environment after a UFO crash.  Furthermore,
Cristobalite only forms from molten rock at temperatures above
approximately 1470 degrees Celsius to the boiling point of
silica. Therefore, if those kind of temperatures had existed in
a UFO crash, any alien bodies and 'equipment' (such as those
allegedly shown in the Alien Autopsy film) would have been
totally disintegrated.

The chalcedony that is also there, is at least secondary or
tertiary (and formed long after the primary material, but also
requiring a very long time to form) to the volcanic rock beneath
it, of which Cristobalite happens to be a part.

Ed, you might cash-in nicely on that pretty rock at some mineral
show (offered as Cristobalite, beside a copy of any XRD analysis
statement you might have), but as to science, Cristobalite and
the other material accompanying it are no evidence, whatsoever,
of a UFO crash.

List readers, Cristobalite may be there if Ed's report is
accurate, but it is fairly rare only because most Cristobalite
is deep underground in volcanic regions.  We are looking at
materials that give us good evidence of very ancient geologic
processes, but which provide zero evidence of a UFO crash. As I
told Ed before, all that rock he is viewing there was exposed
from far below the surface by tectonic (and other) action,
having been formed long-ago in a time when volcanism was highly
active there in New Mexico.

Hey, by the way, Ed, what happened to all that mysterious UFO-
generated "polymer" you repeatedly suggested was there.  :)


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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              Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:42:51 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:53:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard? - Harrison


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:19:53 -0700
>Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard?

>>From: Scott C. Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:58:58 -0400
>>Subject: Re: 'Grey' Photographed In Graveyard?

>>Dear Col, List, et al--

>>I think that you've missed something! Your photo of the grey:

>>http://www.colsweb.com/gray.htm

>>...certainly demands CLOSER inspection...! See here:

>>http://www.apocalypsefiction.com/path2.jpg

>Now you have me wondering what's lurking in my grapefruit tree.

Hi Guys

One question "are you guys being serious"?

Hmmm!!?


Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@hypermax.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@hypermax.net.au
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
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         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com







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   Oct > Oct 3

                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet

From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:25:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:56:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet


>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:32:59 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:31:03 -0800
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>


>If you really believe that an alien science thousands of years
>in advance of our own will use our concepts of "magnetism" and
>"magnetic field" then you have an astonding faith in our current
>level of insight into the physical world. You must be aware of
>current attempts to devise a version of "string theory" that
>would collapse our currently divided understanding of the "four
>forces" (electromagnetism, gravity and the strong and weak
>nuclear forces) down into a unitary phenomenon. As soon as that
>is achieved "magnetism" will be merely a folk concept.

>Also I am not aware that any hard evidence that Shag Harbor was
>a 'crash' in the sense that the craft was unable to leave. Has
>someone recovered parts of it?


Hi Eric, List

My compliments on your thoughts re. alien technology above.
At least this shows some consideration outside the envelope
of our current knowledge. We should not assume anything
when it comes to ET technology, regardless of what effects
we may witness such sightings have on the environment.

As there is no close physical point of origin for these craft,
its fair to say that they must have mastered some form of
faster-than-light travel or some space warp/dimensional effect
or other.

Our physics don't even come close to the realization of such
concepts, so lets not judge ET technology within the confines of
those limitations.


Regards to all,

Noel








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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet

From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:26:13 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:59:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:00:57 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:13:04 +0100
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:56:13 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>>It would seem to me that the questions raised at first post and
>>subsequent theoretical answers all seem very valid indeed to
>>prompt such detailed further inquiry. As this is a discussion
>>forum then a discussion is good.

>>Stan, you ask for our proof of what we say, as do others, and
>>also wish us to explain ourselves based on detail knowledge of
>>which we have spent much time and a great deal of expense with
>>sometimes risking our lives to obtain. As most folk know of what
>>is discussed, because they too do very good research, I don't
>>think answering pointed questions on minor details is wise or
>>called for.

>>If folk want to lead our research or find out details then we
>>all must agree that some incentive must be given for us to do
>>so. Disincentives are not the way to obtain information so that
>>will be the answer to your questions.

>How much discussion of Philip Corso's book, The Day After
>Roswell, has taken place on this List. I archived a few comments
>made just after the books came out in 1997.

>Crashes provide the only tangible material to work with beyond
>the poor record of photographic material and a mountain of
>anecdotal 'data.'

Hi Terry, List ..

You are correct when you say that crashes should provide the
only tangible material, hence why such material must be totally
beyond doubt as to its authenticity. That was the point of my
initial posting and the questions I asked.

The point is that as we stand today, I do not believe anybody
has anything more than circumstantial evidence of UFO crashes,
and in a court of law, such evidence would not constitute proof
beyond reasonable doubt. If it did, we would not be sitting here
on this List debating the issue.

However, this does not mean that UFO crashes have not occurred,
simply that we, as investigators, have failed to provide
undeniable proof to a wanting public... possibly not through
our own lack but perhaps due to the interference of certain
official parties.

I think we should re-examine alleged crash stories and assess
them critically so as to ascertain their true contribution to
the identification of the UFO phenomena.


Best wishes all,

Noel







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                   Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:49:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:01:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Stevenson


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:42:00 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colin@c2k2.fsworld.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:15:45 +0100
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>><snip>

>>The Disclosure Project wants no atomic energy devises in space
>>and as its also allied to ET then we can presume that they don't
>>like it either.

>Is Disclosure talking about nuclear weapons in space or about
>nuclear reactors such as have powered 3 dozen Soviet Space
>systems or nuclear devices such as the Radioisotope
>Thermoelectric Generators that have powered most of our deep
>space probes such as Pioneer, Viking, Galileo, Casini??

* Mainly Nuclear weapons but the nuclear power sources of our
probes could be very destructive if they go astray therefore
they could be considered weapons in such scenario's or used as
weapons deliberately.

>How in the world is the Disclosure Project allied to ET? Do
>they have a pact? or do you mean that the Project thinks some
>UFOs are ET spacecraft?

The Disclosure Project deals with proof of ET and their craft,
their proofs are allied to ET therefore they are allied to ET.
The meaning of allied used is as 'dealing with the pertinent
matters' not as in 'a pact'.

>>From my own experiments Free Energy does not like even very low
>>levels of radioactivity eg luminous numerals of a watch.

>Are you saying that you have produced "free energy" and that
>somehow radiation has upset the system? Can you produce more
>watts per pound than with an RTG?

Yes free energy can be produced by many folk, yes radiation is
disruptive to it and yes over unity is possible and has been
achieved by me but has not been long term reliable in all cases
of use.

>>There is also some pointers to the Reich deep well experiments
>>(excessively strong confined free energy upward emissions) and
>>very strong radar emissions being contributing factors for ET
>>craft crashes. The latter could account for incidences of ET
>>craft near radar, airports and prior to Earthquakes in that they
>>are trying out new tech or accustoming the pilot to these
>>confined unusual Earth environments.

>>All the forgoing presumes ET real, which I personally believe
>>they are, and/or that they are altered/advanced human life forms
>>and/or time travelers and/or from a different dimension to our
>>reality and/or any combinations of all four.

>>There is also some indicators that some ET may be telepathic,
>>control their craft by thought and are very distracted by some
>>Human's thought process's which could cause crashes maybe in
>>combination with the above.

>>Again from my own observations some ET indeed control their
>>craft by mind or thought and this control can be interfered
>>with.

>>No hard data here for you to dissemble and no scientific proof
>>either, mearly observations of an abductee with no proof of that
>>either.

>I don't have any problem with there having been UFO crashes and
>abductions and telepathy. I do have a problem with the claims
>noted.

It may be that my method of writing may be somewhat
misunderstood, too condensed, and assumes too much prior
knowledge from a British understood meaning of words rather than
American.

>I, for one, am opposed to putting WMD in space, but am very much
>in favor of using nuclear technology in space as appropriate.

Disagreement is mine based upon above * answer.


Thanks Stan,


Colin







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet

From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:55:44 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:05:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Herbiet


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:59:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:56:02 +0200
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>While it seems unlikely that an advanced civilization would
>travel lightyears across space only to crash their sophisticated
>craft into the Earth, it's certainly not something to rule out.
>Increased sophistication woud likely result in more points of
>failure, which might be aggrivated by conditions that might not
>have been anticipated. Of course, I've included "likely" and
>"might" in this statement, because we're really trying to
>speculate as to the motvies, capabilities, and technology of what
>is by definition an alien (and completely unknown) entity.

Thanks Steven, for the info, I shall explore it a little later.
Just a thought though! It just occurred to me that we are all
considering ET technology to be that much more complicated and
therefore prone to failure. However the scant evidence we do
have re these crafts is that they in fact appear very plain from
the outside and inside - according to abductees. Does this maybe
not indicate that they operate on a very simple principle, a
principle so simple that it requires little control interface.
Extreme agility does not necessarily mean extreme technology.
And if simple technology really is behind what makes them fly,
then again, why all the alleged crashes?

><snip>

>Unfortunately, this information is not without its controversy
>and there are many questions that can be asked regarding the
>veracity of some alleged incidents. IMO, the UFO field is ruled
>by speculation and faith, with very little emphasis on vetted
>information, as far as the general Internet public is concerned.
>There are some among us that would like to change this, but
>there is little that can be done about the Internet's impact on
>this genre.

So true!

We have but our integrity to guide us!

Thanks again.

Regards to all,


Noel







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   Oct > Oct 3

                   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:55:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:08:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Balaskas


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
>Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions

>Is it me or did someone finally find out whether the Alpha
>Centauri star system has planets or not?

Hi Greg!

According to the current extra-solar planets catalog (see URL
below), no planets have been detected so far orbiting any of the
three stars which make up the Alpha Centauri star system. Since
the "gravitational wobble" method is biased in finding only very
large planets orbiting very close to their "sun", there may very
well be other much smaller still undetected Earth-size planets
orbiting further out in more hospitable regions (regions not too
close or too far from their sun). Unfortunately, planets with
stable near circular planetary orbits cannot exist around close
binary or multiple star sytems such as Alpha Centauri.

The two star Zeta Reticuli star system is not a true binary
system and are far apart for stable circular planetary orbits to
exist around each of the two Sun-like stars. There is much
compelling evidence that our nearest ET neighbours (beings which
Betty and Barney Hill encountered in the White Mountains of New
over four decades ago Hampshire) are from this star system. It
is interesting to note that a discovery of a planet orbiting one
of the two stars of Zeta Reticuli was announced only to be
retracted soon afterwards. This retraction is not included in
the list of "Unconfirmed, controversial or retracted planets" in
the same catalog below.

http://www.spaceref.com/redirect.ref?url=www.obspm.fr/encycl/catalog.html&id=166
4

>It seems to me that our planetologists and astronomers would
>have by now examined our closest star neighbors and given a
>thorough data stream.

Yes, they have examined all the known closest star neighbours of
our Sun (mostly stars very unlike our own Sun) but planetary
astronomers will have to wait until different and more sensitive
space based techniques are used in the coming years (eg. NASA's
'Kepler' and 'Terrestrial Planet Finder missions) to re-examine
these and many thousands of other stars for the much smaller and
harder to Earth-like planets.

>I've searched the web and get bits and pieces of information yet
>none that basically says:

>"Yes Virginia, there are planets next door."

<snip>

With new spacebased infra-red observatories and larger more
sensitive infra-red telescopes on Earth's tallest mountains at
locations with excellent astronomical seeing conditions, I
predict that several very faint "brown dwarf" stars will be
found much closer to our Sun than the Alpha Centauri system. One
of these may be so close that it will turn out to be the much
hypothesized companion star of our Sun, Nemesis.

As for "planets next door", many have been discovered in recent
years that are members of our own solar system which the public
is still largely unaware of, including Zecharia Sitchin's
"Anunnaki" ETs from the alleged 12th planet "Nibiru" in the
outer regions of our solar system! Yes Virginia, there are
(previously unknown to man and Anunnaki) planets next door!

Even Pluto, one of the more distant previously known planets,
has turned out to be a what can be called a twin planet - Pluto-
Charon! Some of these other recently discovered planets within
our solar system which now have names are "Chiron" (a huge
asteroid-like object orbiting the Sun between Saturn and Uranus
- not the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter) and "Varuna",
the largest of many new planets discovered in the outer regions
of our solar system past Neptune that is of comparible size to
Pluto and Charon.

Unlike nearly all the extra-solar planets discovered so far
which are likely just large gaseous balls much like Jupiter that
cannot be readily used as future bases by man and ETs, Pluto-
 Charon, Chiron, Varuna and many other comparible sized rocky
planetoids (and the ever growing number of moons orbiting
planets) in our own solar system can (if they haven't already
been use or are still occupied!).


Nick Balaskas







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   Oct > Oct 3

                             Minnesota 09-27-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:01:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:11:26 -0400
Subject: Minnesota 09-27-03


Minnesota, United States

Date:  September 27, 2003
Time:  7:00 a.m. (central time)

I received an email from a very nice couple who wanted to make a
report on some very unusual lights which they witnessed, and
took photos of on September 27, 2003. At 5:00 a.m. on that day
they noticed and filmed blue lights close to their home.

The witnesses watched the blue lights travel from the east and
then stopped  near their home as seen in the photos below. The
 lights stayed in the area for approximately 20 minutes. I asked
the folks if they knew which direction the lights went and they
were both unsure. They may have looked away for a minute or two
and then when they glanced back the lights were gone. Then on
the same morning, two hours later, they  saw  more some strange
objects and took photos of them as well. I found the pictures to
be very interesting and beautiful with the rainbow as a
backdrop.

A number of objects can be seen very clearly in the pictures.
The witnesses said the objects stayed in their area for
approximately an hour, and told me this event was extraordinary.
They watched them flying north and maneuver themselves as if
they were lining up one after another. They also would change
positions, spreading out, and coming back together once again.
At one point the witness said they seemed to  leap frog over one
another.. It was a strange and exciting experience for the
couple.

One of the witnesses said someone else must have surely seen
this event as it lasted so long and was so very strange.

I would really like to thank the couple for sending me the
pictures and report.

Pictures can be found here:
http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/minnesota_into_canada.htm

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   Oct > Oct 3

              Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:09:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:15:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming


>From: James Smith <zeus001002@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:55:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories

>I am working through your paper and have a couple of questions.

>First, you mention about the thruster firings and mention some
>data you got from NASA. Can you post for the record the thruster
>firing data (for all thrusters) for the relevent time period (I
>imagine that the data is pretty sparse cause they didn't fire
>that often but would be nice to see in print somewhere rather
>than have to order it from NASA)? Is the data you are using the
>thruster pressure levels and did you get it for the maximum
>resolution of data?

I was going to write up something about this eventually, but I
might as well do it now, since you asked.

The thruster-firings may be more frequent than you might think.
I do have the chamber pressure records for almost two hours
around the time of the objects' appearance. I got them back in
1999 and recently found them after conducting an archaeological
dig through 4 years of accumulated stuff.

The two thrusters on the left aft end of the shuttle, L5L and
L5D, are the only two thrusters that could have influenced the
motions of particles in the field of view of the TV camera,
which was mounted on the left side of the cargo bay near the aft
end. Counting overlapping firings of the two thrusters as single
events, one or the other or both fired a total of 32 times in
the 45-minute period beginning at MET Day 2/21:00. The total
firing time for the 32 firings was 88.5 seconds. Those numbers
should be reasonable estimates of the frequency and duration of
the firings during station-keeping, where the shuttle maintains
the same orientation relative to the Earth and uses the vernier
thrusters when it drifts too far from the desired orientation.

The L5D firing closest to the light flash occurred at 21:28:19
MET (or 20:39:23 GMT). That was the firing that has been claimed
to be responsible for the light flash and subsequent changes in
course of several of the objects in the video.

The firing of the L5D thruster preceding the one at 21:28:19 MET
occurred 13 minutes earlier, but there was also an L5L firing
that occurred 7 minutes before the light flash. Both thrusters
fired again a little over 2 minutes after the light flash as
well.

As I wrote in the article for New Frontiers in Science back in
May, I found that the 21:28:19 L5D firing would have occurred
 about 7.5 seconds before the light flash event. That time
difference was based on a star transit of the airglow peak
intensity layer and the official NASA orbital elements for STS-
48 closest to the light flash. For reasons I won't go into here,
I now think the unofficial orbital elements computed by Dan
Adamo were closer to being correct, but a time difference of 6
seconds still is quite reasonable.

Using the number of rocket firings and the total firing time I
gave above, the probability of any random event occurring in
that 45 minute period during a rocket firing or within 6 seconds
of a rocket firing is 17.5%, which is not a statistically
significant coincidence at all.

That by itself doesn't prove the L5D firing did NOT cause the
light flash or that the 6 second difference is NOT just an error
somewhere in the data I used to compute the 6-second time
difference. But it DOES mean there's no need to appeal to some
extraordinarily improbable coincidence to support the belief
that the time difference between the thruster firing and the
light flash was, in fact, about 6 seconds.

>Have you gotten from NASA the flight attitude for the time
>period (not Oberg's "attitude variation") at the maximum data
>resolution? If so can you post that data?

Here's what Oberg wrote:

"The autopilot pointing load was pitch 0, yaw 280, roll 270,
which comes out to left wing down, belly forward, nose tucked
about 10 degrees toward the +Vbar."

Since the shuttle was station-keeping at the time, the actual
pitch, yaw, and roll should all be within about 1 degree of
those values during the whole time.

>It is not clear to me how you determine the distance of the
>objects. How do you know the objects are not inches to feet from
>the lens?

The answer to that is easy: you can't measure how far away the
objects are from the video. I never said that I did. You'd need
stereo cameras or radar ranging or something like that. But as
Mark Carlotto observed, the fact that the objects' trajectories
curve near the horizon is consistent with large objects that are
near the horizon and accelerating as they move around the
Earth's curvature. The accelerations aren't consistent with
shuttle debris being moved around by rocket firings no matter
what distance the objects are from the shuttle. Sublimation of
ice was the only source of propulsion that seemed as if it might
be consistent with small ice particles. But that doesn't work,
either, when you look at the objects' motions over longer spans
of time.







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   Oct > Oct 3

                    New Sightings Map For Central America

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@SYSMATRIX.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 03:32:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:18:34 -0400
Subject: New Sightings Map For Central America


Hello All,

For those interested, I have put up a new UFO sightings map for
Central America on the *U* UFO Database website:

http://www.larryhatch.net/CAMER.html

To accentuate Central American and Caribbean events which are
relatively few in my data, I darkened the coastlines and turned
off the blaze of USA sightings.

I also put up this Spanish language version - same map

http://www.larryhatch.net/CAMERES.html

I can't take credit for the perfect Spanish grammar. Vicente-
Juan Ballester Olmos went through my fault ridden prose with a
fine tooth comb. Many thanks!

These two and others are on the usual *U* Maps Menu:

http://www.larryhatch.net/MAPSMENU.html

If you have time, please take a browse.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                         Spanish Filmmaker Goes UFO

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:47:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:23:48 -0400
Subject: Spanish Filmmaker Goes UFO


Source: Altazor@yahoogroups.com
Date: October 3, 2003

Expo And Forums Accompany Release Of Oscar Aibar's 'Platillos
Volantes'

Produced by Enrique Cerezo and Pedro Costa, 'Platillos Volantes'
reconstructs real facts and attempts to delve into the complex
psychology of two Spanish laborers who fall prey to what was
known in the late '60s as "Martianitis" or the UFO boom. The
film captures a great part of this phenomenon in Spain, which
coincided with the last years of the Franco regime, in which any
association was investigated as a possible source of subversion.

To accompany the opening of "Platillos Volantes", expos on
sightings reported in Spain and forums featuring the country's
senior UFO experts will be held in Madrid, Barcelona and
Valencia. Furthermore, the film's official website:

www.plus.es/platillosvolantes

has opened a section to which photos of sightings may be
submitted. These will, subsequently, be included in the expos
and chats in which users may discuss the possible existence of
life on other planets.

================================================================

Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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                  Luminous Object in the Gulf of Venezuela

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:39:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:27:07 -0400
Subject: Luminous Object in the Gulf of Venezuela


Source: OVNIVENEZUELA
Date: 10/03/03

Luminous Object In The Gulf Of Venezuela

The presence of UFOs in Venezuela has become increasingly more
frequent and intense. A new sighting has been reported from the
coastal state of Falcon, a region in which these enigmatic
objects have been popularly classified by local residents as
"avioncitos" (little airplanes) due to their breathtaking and
customary appearances.

On September 28, 2003, two witnesses observed the manuevers of
an enormous luminous sphere that flew over the Punto Fijo region
of Falcon, to the northwest of the Gulf of Venezuela. The event
took place at approximately 7:45 p.m. while Jose Jimenez and his
father-in-law performed fishing tasks in the vicinity of the
Villamarina and El Pico beaches.

According to Jimenez, the source produced an intense and
"glistening" white light that came from above. This caused him
to look up to the heavens and notice the strange and nearby
luminous presence among "hundreds of stars in the sky".

The witness added that after a while, after having remained
static for a few seconds, the obejct became lost after
performing zig-zagging and vertical "appearances" and
"disappearances" in the air space over Falc=F3n.

It is worth noting that it is not the first time that such
events have been reported in the area. Dozens of people have
repeatedly reported the presence of these odd luminous obejcts.
Likewise "confidential" unofficial communications made by the
crews fo Venezuelan vessels have also reported strange objects
during crossings of the deep waters of the Gulf of Venezuela.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

(Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Arturo Escalante and Roger Lopez







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                  Reach Out And Touch The Extraterrestrial

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:32:54 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:32:19 -0400
Subject: Reach Out And Touch The Extraterrestrial


Source: The Portland Tribune, Oregon

http://www.portlandtribune.com/archview.cgi?id=18818

Fri, Oct 3, 2003

Reach Out And Touch The Extraterrestrial
By Eric Bartels

The difference between the now-defunct 24 Hour Church of Elvis
and the Portland Alien Museum is that nobody at the church
really believed Elvis was alive.

Museum Director Lawrence Johns, on the other hand, doesn't just
accept the existence of extraterrestrial life. He's preparing
for contact.

"We're trying to build up a database," Johns says of the
museum's Center for Alien Studies. "It's becoming more
mainstream, the whole idea of making contact."

In June, Johns and business partner Stephen Hanns opened the
museum in a Craftsman-style home off Northeast Sandy Boulevard
in the Hollywood district. "There are over 150,000 people in
this country who believe that UFOs are real," Johns says.
"There's a tremendous interest in UFO information.

"There are some fascinating stories coming into the museum. It
becomes a meeting point for people. A lot of people have
experiences, and they've been afraid to talk about it.

"We've had a good number of people from the military come by,"
Johns adds, refusing to elaborate. "In this field, one has to
protect confidences. We're a serious research facility, but it's
surrounded by a unique and interesting attraction."

Unique indeed. Several "contact-inspired" artworks with four-
 and five-figure price tags hang within reach of plastic "E.T."
dolls. With bare spots separating eclectic exhibits, the former
gallery space manages to look both Spartan and haphazard at the
same time.

In other words, precisely the kind of attraction that could
become a local institution, like the Church of Elvis.

"Portland has a national reputation for being a little offbeat,"
says Deborah Wakefield, director of public communications for
the Portland Oregon Visitors Bureau. "This may be one of those
quirky things that makes Portland fun."

Museum visitors watch themselves shrink in the world's first
artificial vortex and enjoy a new display on different types of
aliens. The museum's library features a reference section, an
impressive collection of vintage sci-fi magazines and comics,
and assorted television and movie props, including a phaser
weapon that Johns says was used in the original "Star Trek"
series.

The 3-D video thrill ride, in the "theater," was an immediate
hit, Johns says.

A kitchen was converted into a children's play "wing," replete
with two old school desks, a smattering of action figures and a
13-inch television.

There, writer Nick Nelson fiddled with a device designed to
produce "Mars water." It consists of a small funnel and tube
passing through what looks like a petrified bagel. "There is
water on the surface of Mars," Nelson says. "There used to be a
civilization. NASA's covering it up."

The author of the 2000 book "The Golden Vortex," Nelson was in
town for a speaking engagement at the museum. "About 20 years
ago I came up with a theory of natural portals that UFOs may or
may not be using," he says. "If there are UFOs out there,
they're probably using the planet Earth the way people in
Washington use Oregon to get to California."

Inside the front door of the museum, a full-color poster depicts
the fleet of saucers that streaked past Mount Rainier in 1950,
just off the left wing of pilot Kenneth Arnold's plane. Arnold's
book, "Behind the Flying Saucers," rests in a display case.

On another wall is a reproduced front page of the McMinnville
Telephone Register from June 8, 1950. A banner headline reads:
"At Long Last -- Authentic Photographs of Flying Saucer (?)."
Below it are two famous photos taken by Yamhill County farmer
Paul Trent that capture a tilting, silvery disc an indeterminate
distance from his barn. The Life magazine issue with a one-page
story on the incident is nearby.

"This was and is the hotbed for sightings," says Randy Haragan,
owner of theufostore.com, the Beaverton-based Internet vendor
that consigns items to the museum's gift shop. "With the UFO
history in the Northwest, it's a natural thing to open some sort
of museum."


Contact Eric Bartels at:

ebartels@portlandtribune.com









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                          Secrecy News -- 10/03/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 15:58:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:07:38 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/03/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 85
October 3, 2003


**      LEAKS AND THE ESPIONAGE ACT
**      HPSCI AND DCI TENET EXCHANGE LETTERS
**      THE KAY STATEMENT
**      MORE LEGISLATION TO FIX THE PATRIOT ACT


LEAKS AND THE ESPIONAGE ACT

The Washington Post continues to report incorrectly that the
unauthorized disclosure of classified information is a violation
of federal statute.

"The act of identifying [undercover CIA officer Valerie] Plame
could be a felony violation of the 1982 Intelligence Identities
Protection Act, which shields covert operatives, as well as
portions of the 1917 Espionage Act, which forbids the
unauthorized release of classified information," the Post
reported today.

See "If the Secret's Spilled, Calling Leaker to Account Isn't
Easy," October 3:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37085-
2003Oct2.html

But does the 1917 Espionage Act "forbid the unauthorized release
of classified information"? Not exactly.

What it does do is prohibit disclosure of several narrowly
defined categories of information -- having to do with codes,
ciphers, and communications intelligence. It does not mention
intelligence identities or many other diverse forms of
classified information. See 18 USC 798 on "Disclosure of
classified information" here:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/798.html

The Espionage Act also prohibits under certain conditions the
unauthorized disclosure of "defense information," which includes
much, but far from all classified information. The one and only
conviction of a leaker to the media, Samuel L. Morison, resulted
from the compromise of such "defense information." See 18 USC
793 on "Gathering, Transmitting, or Losing Defense Information"
here:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/793.html

As previously noted, Congress enacted a general provision to
criminalize all leaks of any type of classified information in
2000, precisely because such a prohibition did not exist,
notwithstanding the Morison precedent. But President Clinton
vetoed it on November 4, 2000:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2000/11/wh110400.html

Consequently, it seems clear, there is no universal statutory
prohibition in the Espionage Act or any other statute that
"forbids the unauthorized release of classified information."

The same Post story erroneously reported that "two government
employees have ... been convicted of providing classified
information to the media," citing "a recent Justice Department
review of leak investigations and court records."

In fact, there has been only one such conviction, that of Samuel
Morison. The second case cited in the Post story, that of former
DEA employee Jonathan Randel, involved restricted but
unclassified information.

It hardly needs to be said that these kinds of errors are easy
to make and completely forgivable. (Secrecy News makes an
average of one error per issue -- usually trivial, but caveat
lector.)

On the other hand, such errors ought to be corrected.


HPSCI AND DCI TENET EXCHANGE LETTERS

The Washington Post last week obtained a letter from the
chairman and the ranking member of the House Intelligence
Committee criticizing the quality of U.S. intelligence
concerning Iraq. It was reported on September 28.

Despite the attention-commanding front page story, reported by
Dana Priest, the House Intelligence Committee refused to
disclose a copy of the letter. "It has not been approved for
release," a Committee spokesman said.

To the Post's credit, it has now placed the text of the letter
on its web site for all to see:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36817-
2003Oct2.html

The letter elicited a scolding, rather condescending reply from
Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet, which the Post
also helpfully made available:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36712-
2003Oct2.html

These are key documents illuminating the present state of
official thinking, such as it is, on the adequacy of U.S.
intelligence on Iraq.


THE KAY STATEMENT

An "interim progress report" on the search for banned weapons of
mass destruction in Iraq revealed no stockpiles of such weapons,
though it did cite "rudimentary" traces of weapons programs,
concealed equipment, and so forth.

"Why are we having such difficulty in finding weapons or in
reaching a confident conclusion that they do not exist or that
they once existed but have been removed?" The statement offered
several reasons, including Iraqi denial and deception.

See a copy of the unclassified statement, presented by David Kay
and made available by the CIA, here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/dkay100203.html


MORE LEGISLATION TO FIX THE PATRIOT ACT

Bipartisan dissatisfaction with the USA Patriot Act continues to
grow, yielding multiple, overlapping initiatives to correct,
amend or revise the Act.

The "Reasonable Notice and Search Act" (S. 1701), introduced by
Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) would modify the Patriot Act's "sneak
and peek" provision, which permits delayed notification of
search and seizures. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s1701.html

The "Safety and Freedom Ensured (SAFE) Act" (S. 1709),
introduced by Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) and several colleagues,
would limit roving wiretaps under the Patriot Act, curtail
delayed notification of searches, and increase privacy
protection for library users and others. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s1709.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






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   Oct > Oct 3

                  Strange Object Lights Up Sky Over Alberta

From: Sheyllah Salles F. Pires <sheyllah@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:48:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:09:39 -0400
Subject: Strange Object Lights Up Sky Over Alberta


Source: My Telus CA

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=ab_home&articleID=1424129

Thursday, Oct 02, 2003

EDMONTON (mytelus.com) There was a spectacular light show in
northern Alberta Wednesday night after a mystery object made a
fiery arc across the sky.

The eye-popping, whitish-greenish ball with a red or orange tail
blasted into the night sky about 11:40 p.m. Witnesses said it
took about 30 seconds for it to zoom across in a northerly
trajectory.

The North American Air Defence Command (NORAD) and the Canadian
Space Agency are trying to find an explanation.







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   Oct > Oct 4

              Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 15:37:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:47:21 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:23:18 -0400
>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>>>The XRD identification of cristobalite as the strange material
>>>covering the site should be all the proof required ...

><snip>

>Sorry I've not had time to phone you to explain why the finding
>of Cristobalite is UFOlogically meaningless, but in view of the
>above statement, I must now comment on-list:

>Please be reasonable, Ed. You have no evidence at all of a UFO
>crash. Cristobalite is a always a pseudomorph after Beta
>Cristobalite, which transformation could not have occurred in
>the open, surface environment after a UFO crash.

Ray,

I would have liked the chance to spend more time on this reply
but I'm leaving for Missouri in a few minutes and then on to New
Mexico and the crash site.

I think I'm being very reasonable. Remember I simply followed
the cameraman's directions to this site. I didn't stumble onto
this remarkable piece of desert.

The site is exactly as he described it and drew it. Not almost,
but exactly! That does not happen by chance. He said there
would be glass-like material covering the area and that the crash
site was at the end of a deep canyon. He was correct about both.
He said the site was very hot when he got there and they had to
wait a day before they could approach the craft. There is
burned vegetation everywhere but it is only severely scorched
on one side, the side facing the landing area and approach,
just as one would expect from an area that had an object
pass through with heat greater than 1400C.

>Furthermore,
>Cristobalite only forms from molten rock at temperatures above
>approximately 1470 degrees Celsius to the boiling point of
>silica. Therefore, if those kind of temperatures had existed in
>a UFO crash, any alien bodies and 'equipment' (such as those
>allegedly shown in the Alien Autopsy film) would have been
>totally disintegrated.

I would think that the craft was shielded in some manner, as
would be expected from alien technology and given UFO flight
characteristics.

>The chalcedony that is also there, is at least secondary or
>tertiary (and formed long after the primary material, but also
>requiring a very long time to form) to the volcanic rock beneath
>it, of which Cristobalite happens to be a part.

This is what is so frustrating about this discussion. I
understand geology quite well and especially New Mexico geology.
The entire area is rhyolite, a volcanic ash, not a melt. And yes
there is natural chalcedony, quartz and many other minerals and
a few specs of cristobalite imbedded in the rhyolite but the XRD
chemist stated clearly that these were two different events and
the cristobalite was a melt on the rhyolite and was not a part
of the rhyolite base.

>Ed, you might cash-in nicely on that pretty rock at some mineral
>show (offered as Cristobalite, beside a copy of any XRD analysis
>statement you might have), but as to science, Cristobalite and
>the other material accompanying it are no evidence, whatsoever,
>of a UFO crash.

These are not pretty rocks but alien debris. I'm not interested
in selling anything. There are tons of this material.

>List readers, Cristobalite may be there if Ed's report is
>accurate, but it is fairly rare only because most Cristobalite
>is deep underground in volcanic regions.

This material is very rare because cristobalite has never been
found anywhere in the world under these conditions or in this
quantity and is almost always associated with obsidian. There is
no obsidian at this site or in the area.

>We are looking at
>materials that give us good evidence of very ancient geologic
>processes, but which provide zero evidence of a UFO crash.

You're as wrong about this as you were about the material being
agate. This material was formed above ground when the craft came
to an abrupt halt and the material the craft's vortex had
collected (molted desert sand- silica and oxygen) was deposited
upon the rhyolite outcroppings and the desert rocks and sand.


>As I
>told Ed before, all that rock he is viewing there was exposed
>from far below the surface by tectonic (and other) action,
>having been formed long-ago in a time when volcanism was highly
>active there in New Mexico.

The site does not indicated that this was the way it happened.
I've been there and you refuse to visit. I could point out just
how wrong you are about your suppositions in about fifteen
seconds at the site. Blow your socks off!

It would help this discussion if you quit disregarding my
testimony. I'm describing the facts of this site exactly the way
they are. And you keep acting as though I were some nut case or
simple child that needs patronizing nudges and pats. I'm not the
dumb dupe your behavior towards me seem to indicate.

>Hey, by the way, Ed, what happened to all that mysterious UFO-
>generated "polymer" you repeatedly suggested was there. :)

My contention is that angel hair and simple crop circles are
formed by the same vortex action as was the cristobalite. Yes, I
thought we'd find polymer and I'm sure it was there in the mix
but was disintegrated by the extreme heat.


Ed








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                       Special Declassified Documents?

From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:49:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:06:36 -0400
Subject: Special Declassified Documents?


Hi List,

For the last year I've been analysing declassified documents.
They are certainly very interesting - many documents mention
flying discs. Maybe some of you will know those documents.

1947: One of the best years for flying saucers, that were
observed in many countries hundreds of years before. Flying
discs were seen by many citizens near Sun Vanley, Idaho July 1,
1947 (Office Memorandum...to Director F.B.I.):

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf


A Roswell document:

A one-page teletype dated July 8, 1947... relays information
from the US AIR FORCE about a flying disc... recovered near
Roswell, New Mexico.

The UFO was hexagonal in shape, and was suspended from a balloon
by cable.

Was it a flying disc of Aliens or a flying disc - made in the US
- based on Alien-technology? Why it was suspended from a
balloon? Or... were they testing a flying disc from Aliens?

Other memoranda certainly described real (and big) flying
saucers (or... perhaps, a hoax - a little saucer made by
students:

http://foia.fbi.gov/roswell.htm

In the Office Memorandum about flying discs (from FITCH to D.M.
IADD) is written that all the recovered discs must be made
available for the examinination by the FBI Agents!:

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf


Another document is from the F.B.I. Portland (8-11-47) about
flying discs observed by a Navy pilot above Myrtle Creek, 6 - 8
-1947 (Oregon):

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf

The Office Memorandum of 9 - 10 - 47 to Director F.B.I. also
mentions a flying saucer (elleptical in shape) moving above
Portland with a much greater speed than a conventional airplane!
This was probably not a hoax or a joke!:

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo7.pdf

1952 information received from ATIC, Wright Patterson that
Donald Stewart (& Tyler) had observed an "unconventional type
aircraft" on 29 - 03 - 1952

Title: Unknown Subject...(a flat disc with a cupola or dome)

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo10.pdf

etc. etc.

Have a nice day,

Thierry Jonnaert

UFO-RESEARCH
& P.PHENOMENA
Belgium







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:00:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:09:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Balaskas


>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>>The 1967 Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia incident is just one of these
>>well documented. With this particular UFO crash, it was not UFO
>>investigators that decided that to label the object that crashed
>>off shore a "UFO" but the numerous official government, military
>>and RCMP documents uncovered from the archives and through
>>Access to Information requests that called it that! There are
>>many living witnesses to this UFO crash, many of whom played
>>major roles in the attempted recovery operation (which
>>eventually involved the U.S. and the interest of the Soviets
>>too). Of these witnesses, there are some so disturbed by what
>>they saw and experienced that refuse to discuss it with people
>>other than their immediate families and closest friends. Unlike
>>the Roswell UFO crash, thanks partly to the quick response by
>>the Canadian navy which allowed for a rescue and repair mission
>>(by the ETs themselves?) to go ahead with little interference,
>>this UFO crash had a happier ending. Further details about this
>>UFO crash - and the province wide UFO flap - leading to it can
>>be found in Don Ledger's and Chris Styles' book 'Dark Object'.

<snip>

>Also I am not aware that any hard evidence that Shag Harbor was
>a 'crash' in the sense that the craft was unable to leave.  Has
>someone recovered parts of it?

Hi Eric, Noel, everyone!

Before I reply to your question, let me remind everyone on the
UFO UpDates List of the 'Majestic Documents/UFO Crash Retrieval
Conference' in Las Vegas, Nevada from November 14-16, 2003. One
of the top researchers in the UFO crash/retrieval field, Leonard
Stringfield, is no longer with us and will not be there.

In Stringfield's books, monograms and lectures he fully
documented dozens of UFO crashes, many of which were not
previously known to ufologists or had since been forgotten
because no one bothered to do any follow-ups. Of course a few of
these UFO crashes were suspected of being disinformation from
annonymous or unreliable sources or outright hoaxes, but most
could not be so readily dismissed. One such case is the Cape
Girardeau, Missouri UFO crash of 1941 which predates the Roswell
UFO crash of 1947 and the references to this same incident in
the "new" Majestic Documents.

Getting back to your original question about "hard evidence",
let me answer with a question of my own. Do we have any hard
evidence (aircraft wreckage, bodies of terrorist, etc.) of the
commercial airliners that were seen and photographed by many
witnesses to have crashed into the two World Trade Center
skyscrapers and the Pentagon. The simple answer would be "no,
but the authorities probably do" - but it still leaves us with
witness testimony and their pictures as our proof. This is not
enough for most ufologists though.

Fortunately, there are many witnesses, including ufologists and
insiders, who have handled and tested actual UFO crash wreckage
and have examined and dissected the bodies of the occupants of
these UFOs. Let me give just two examples which I am sure you
may have known about but since overlooked (like NICAP which
investigated UFOs and believed some were ET in origin but would
dismiss UFO cases involving sightings of the aliens themselves).

One of these examples is Wilbert B. Smith who was directly
involved in both Project Magnet and Project Second Storey, two
official Canadian Government studies on UFOs. Not only did Smith
and fellow researchers in Ottawa get to work with UFO crash
wreckage, much of which was shared with Smith by his colleagues
involved in similar top secret UFO studies in the U.S., but he
even claimed to be in direct contact with the "Boys Topside" and
worked on experiments (antigravity, time travel, reduced
binding, etc.) in what he called "The New Science". Before Smith
died, he told and described the dead alien bodies which were
shown to him (during one official trip to Washington, D.C.?) to
his son and his closest friends. UFO researcher Grant Cameron
will have some more incredible revelations, about Smith and
other prominent Canadian and U.S. researchers and officials who
were directly involved with UFOs and ETs, at the coming Las
Vegas UFO crash conference.

A second example is Dr. Henry Azadehdel, a British-American
physicist and UFO researcher who may have copies of more
official UFO documents than newbie John Greenwald has on his
extensive and very impressive web site, 'The Black Vault'. Back
in 1978 Azadehdel personally investigated a UFO crash in Bolivia
where he saw and photographed a crashed saucer-shaped object
along with its five dead alien occupants (three inside and two
outside the object). In a 1990 telephone conversation with Dr.
Eric Walker (a distinguished scientist and suspected MJ-12
insider), Azadehdel brought up some details about this UFO crash
with Walker which he successfully used as bait to get Walker to
speak a little more freely about UFOs and their occupants. For
example,


Azadehdel: But what amazes me, Doctor, is the frequent
           appearance of these objects. Does this suggest that
           they might have a base in one of our solar system
           planets?

Walker:    Well, we can make a point of all these, but they did
           not tell us.

Azadehdel: Have we ever been able to make contact with them on
           the communication basis?

Walker:    We promised not to tell.


With so many skeptical ufologists who have personal limits as to
what they are prepared to accept, there is no need for official
secrecy on the subject of crashed UFOs, since we self-enforce the
UFO cover-up.


Nick Balaskas

P.S. In an earlier e-mail about newly discovered planets in our
own solar system, I forgot to mention about one trans-Neptune
world with almost the same diameter as Pluto (how did we miss
this one for so long?) that has yet to be named but is known as
"2001 KX76".









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   Oct > Oct 4

                    Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:38:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:11:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Hatch


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:55:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
>>Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>Is it me or did someone finally find out whether the Alpha
>>Centauri star system has planets or not?

>Hi Greg!

>According to the current extra-solar planets catalog (see URL
>below), no planets have been detected so far orbiting any of the
>three stars which make up the Alpha Centauri star system. Since
>the "gravitational wobble" method is biased in finding only very
>large planets orbiting very close to their "sun", there may very
>well be other much smaller still undetected Earth-size planets
>orbiting further out in more hospitable regions (regions not too
>close or too far from their sun). Unfortunately, planets with
>stable near circular planetary orbits cannot exist around close
>binary or multiple star sytems such as Alpha Centauri.
[snip]

>As for "planets next door", many have been discovered in recent
>years that are members of our own solar system which the public
>is still largely unaware of, including Zecharia Sitchin's
>"Anunnaki" ETs from the alleged 12th planet "Nibiru" in the
>outer regions of our solar system! Yes Virginia, there are
>(previously unknown to man and Anunnaki) planets next door!

- - -

Uh Nick?

Are you saying you buy into Sitchin's planet Nibiru?

Thanks to Sitchin's fast selling books, the public is much less
unaware of Nibiru than the astronomers. Try mentioning Sitchin,
Nibiru and the Anunaki to an astronomer. I'd like to be the fly
on the wall if you do. It is Sitchin who posits Nibiru etc., not
from some scientific discovery, but by weaving his stories into
ancient manuscripts.  I will leave the merits of his archeology
to the proper experts, but his astronomy would not make 3rd rate
science fiction.

He posits a 12th planet with an orbit so elliptical that it
would go far far beyond the orbit of Pluto at apogee .. into a
cryogenic realm so dark and cold that oxygen and nitrogen (air)
would not only liquefy, but freeze.  The Anunaki had better
dress warmly for their centuries long winters. Those would turn
vodka to stone, and oh yes! They better hold their breath.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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   Oct > Oct 4

                   Ootischenia Castlegar British Columbia

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:47:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:14:14 -0400
Subject: Ootischenia Castlegar British Columbia


Hi List

A person wrote to me today and asked me if I would like a huge
number of photos - and I mean a ton of them - which contain some
very unusual objects. He held an official position and from the
many photos I now have, it has blown my mind actually. Of course
they are up for everyone's input. I will be going through
everything and making them ready along with a report from the
person. The report and photos come from the United States.
Hopefully I will have a lot of this ready quickly for everyone
to view. From what I understand these pictures have never been
seen before.

I also will be posting something really incredible, as far as I
am concerned.

Take care
Brian


Ootischenia, Castlegar, British Columbia

Date:  October 1, 2003
Time:  8:30 p.m.

Greetings, Brian

It was suggested to me that I e-mail you to let you know that my
family witnessed a strange event on Wednesday night, October
1st, 2003, roughly around 8:30 pm.  I also understand others may
have seen the same flashing lights. My name is (deleted by HBCC
UFO), I live in Ootischenia, just outside of Castlegar, next to
the Castlegar Airport.

It was a clear night, and I was looking to the north sky at the
Big Dipper. I caught a glimpse of a flashing red/green and white
light moving across the sky towards the west.  I thought it was
an jet flying towards Vancouver, but then I returned my glance
towards the east, above the Kootenay River valley, where the
"jet" seemed to appear from, I saw another flashing light.  A
called my husband, (name deleted by HBCC UFO), to come and see
this, and he saw what I saw...then we saw another appear from
the east fly over Mount Sentinel and move towards the west.  My
three children joined us in our observations of the unidentified
objects in the night sky. These were not jets!

Within a few minutes, there were five of these objects in the
sky at one time flying in various directions.  Two in particular
seemed to meet up with one another and hovered across from one
another for about a minute or two, then one flew directly below
it, and hovered there for less than a minute, then flew in a
north eastern direction towards the back of Mount Sentinel. It
flew out of sight, then in about another minute or so,
reappeared from the east, (where they all seemed to come from).

We watched these objects for about 15 minutes, then they all
disappeared behind the mountains in the horizons.

Tonight, Oct 3, I have so far seen one of these objects fly
across the sky from east towards the west.  I plan to be out
watching for these things again tonight.

Thank you for the opportunity to share my experience with you.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   Oct > Oct 4

                 On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting?

From: Ralph Howard <rhjr@speedfactory.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:29:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:18:45 -0400
Subject: On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting?


I have two professional colleagues who had an unusual sighting
in Bozeman, Montana, early on the morning of Sunday Aug. 31st.

Their sighting was long-duration (4 minutes) and involved a
distant, but brilliant, moving "point" that stopped, hovered
motionless, separated into two, both then remained stationary,
before they eventually lost sight of them due to their direction
of travel in a car.

While I've completed witness interviews, some basic map work,
and so on, what is really needed is for someone on the ground to
ask around about possible solutions involving either the
military or perhaps fire-fighting operations.

So: Can anyone recommend, or does anyone know of, someone in the
vicinity of Bozeman, Montana who might work with me on this?
Local asking-around in Bozeman might well produce a reasonable
solution.

Any contacts forwarded would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!


Ralph O. Howard, Jr.

P.G. FI & Dep. Dir. for Science - MUFON of Georgia
LLR - Loyal List Reader (but rare list poster)








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   Oct > Oct 4

                Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 10:14:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:37:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Kaeser


>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:49:00 +0200
>Subject: Special Declassified Documents?

>For the last year I've been analysing declassified documents.
>They are certainly very interesting - many documents mention
>flying discs. Maybe some of you will know those documents.

<snip>


Hi Thierry

You might want to visit:

www.blackvault.com

which contains these and hundreds (if not thousands) of other
documents that have been obtained through the FOIA process.

While not exactly organized, and for the most part unsearchable
(unless there have been changes I'm not aware of), this is a
treasure trove of material for those willing to wade through it.


Steve








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   Oct > Oct 4

                    Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:46:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:58:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:38:36 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:55:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
>>>Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>Is it me or did someone finally find out whether the Alpha
>>>Centauri star system has planets or not?

>>Hi Greg!

>>According to the current extra-solar planets catalog (see URL
>>below), no planets have been detected so far orbiting any of the
>>three stars which make up the Alpha Centauri star system. Since
>>the "gravitational wobble" method is biased in finding only very
>>large planets orbiting very close to their "sun", there may very
>>well be other much smaller still undetected Earth-size planets
>>orbiting further out in more hospitable regions (regions not too
>>close or too far from their sun). Unfortunately, planets with
>>stable near circular planetary orbits cannot exist around close
>>binary or multiple star sytems such as Alpha Centauri.

<snip>

>>As for "planets next door", many have been discovered in recent
>>years that are members of our own solar system which the public
>>is still largely unaware of, including Zecharia Sitchin's
>>"Anunnaki" ETs from the alleged 12th planet "Nibiru" in the
>>outer regions of our solar system! Yes Virginia, there are
>>(previously unknown to man and Anunnaki) planets next door!

>Are you saying you buy into Sitchin's planet Nibiru?

>Thanks to Sitchin's fast selling books, the public is much less
>unaware of Nibiru than the astronomers. Try mentioning Sitchin,
>Nibiru and the Anunaki to an astronomer. I'd like to be the fly
>on the wall if you do. It is Sitchin who posits Nibiru etc., not
>from some scientific discovery, but by weaving his stories into
>ancient manuscripts.  I will leave the merits of his archeology
>to the proper experts, but his astronomy would not make 3rd rate
>science fiction.

>He posits a 12th planet with an orbit so elliptical that it
>would go far far beyond the orbit of Pluto at apogee .. into a
>cryogenic realm so dark and cold that oxygen and nitrogen (air)
>would not only liquefy, but freeze.  The Anunaki had better
>dress warmly for their centuries long winters. Those would turn
>vodka to stone, and oh yes! They better hold their breath.


All of the foregoing aside, wasn't there a 10th planet - or
asteroid [they aren't sure which] - discovered out past the orbit
of Pluto, last year?

Best,

Don Ledger







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   Oct > Oct 4

                     Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Rogers

From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:34:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 17:20:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Rogers


From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:00:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>>The 1967 Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia incident is just one of these
>>well documented. With this particular UFO crash, it was not UFO
>>investigators that decided that to label the object that crashed
>>off shore a "UFO" but the numerous official government, military
>>and RCMP documents uncovered from the archives and through
>>Access to Information requests that called it that! There are
>>many living witnesses to this UFO crash, many of whom played
>>major roles in the attempted recovery operation (which
>>eventually involved the U.S. and the interest of the Soviets
>>too). Of these witnesses, there are some so disturbed by what
>>they saw and experienced that refuse to discuss it with people
>>other than their immediate families and closest friends. Unlike
>>the Roswell UFO crash, thanks partly to the quick response by
>>the Canadian navy which allowed for a rescue and repair mission
>>(by the ETs themselves?) to go ahead with little interference,
>>this UFO crash had a happier ending. Further details about this
>>UFO crash - and the province wide UFO flap - leading to it can
>>be found in Don Ledger's and Chris Styles' book 'Dark Object'.

<snip>

>Fortunately, there are many witnesses, including ufologists and
>insiders, who have handled and tested actual UFO crash wreckage
>and have examined and dissected the bodies of the occupants of
>these UFOs. Let me give just two examples which I am sure you
>may have known about but since overlooked (like NICAP which
>investigated UFOs and believed some were ET in origin but would
>dismiss UFO cases involving sightings of the aliens themselves).


Hi List,

Sorry I haven't been around for a while. Work and writing have
been taking precedent. But I do read the messages now and again,
and I've always been a fan of rare-contributor Nick Balaskas,
who I'm co-hosting "Cosmic Horizons" with on Radio Glendon.
Sorry you couldn't come out to the show last night, Nick. I was
looking forward to chatting with you again.


I guess my question on this subject remains the same. If there
are "many" witnesses who had handled and tested actual UFO crash
wreckage and alien bodies, why haven't they been able to sneak
anything out? Why do we just have their stories which could just
be ... well, stories. Apparently the government has no problem
with them telling their stories to UFO investigators because
they're still alive to talk about it (yes, I'm sure someone has
a story or two about the mysterious death of some UFO
investigator, but let's face facts: most of the ones who talk
are still doing so without impunity). Why can't someone sneak
out anything and take it the New York Times or Sixty Minutes?
It's not because the public is pigheaded and skeptically (and I
have to say that I think it's really too bad that skepticism is
seen as a bad thing by some in ufology; quite frankly, I'm not
interested in knowing any UFO investigator who isn't a skeptic;
I think we have more than enough believers in the field already,
actually). It's because the  major evidence doesn't exist. Maybe
the media is working with the govt to sustain the cover-up? Not
a chance. The media has been responsible for exposing more govt
lies and cover-ups than any other body on the planet. If the
news was there, someone would have dug it up by now. Maybe the
media isn't interested in UFO news because of the spin the Air
Force put on UFOs back in the sixties? Almost believable, but
again, no way. The proof that the U.S. govt., or any govt.,
covered up evidence of extraterrestrial visitation would be the
biggest news story on the planet, and every news agency on the
globe would fight tooth and nail to be the first to report it.

The truth is UFO news has been running on life support for years
and years. I was out of the field for ten years, and when I came
back no one - not a single person or organization - was any
further to proving a single thing. There haven't been any huge
cases, not really, no smoking guns, no disclosures. Oh sure,
there have been some funky photos, some curious videos, and your
list of usual suspects - the slew of shadowy govt. operatives
speaking on condition of anonymity. But this is no different
than what we've seen since people started seriously
investigating UFOs. Nothing has changed.

>Azadehdel: But what amazes me, Doctor, is the frequent
>           appearance of these objects. Does this suggest that
>           they might have a base in one of our solar system
>           planets?

>Walker:    Well, we can make a point of all these, but they did
>           not tell us.

>Azadehdel: Have we ever been able to make contact with them on
>           the communication basis?

>Walker:    We promised not to tell.

While this exchange is very ominous and suggestive, it doesn't
really mean anything. If this person was working under a cloak
of secrecy, would he be talking to Azadehdel in the first place?
Not likely. And if he was, would he really give a cryptic and,
quite frankly, revealing answer as "We promised not to tell." I
mean, didn't he just kind of tell us with that answer? It sounds
very Twilight Zone, but I don't that it convinces anyone of
anything.

>With so many skeptical ufologists who have personal limits as to
>what they are prepared to accept, there is no need for official
>secrecy on the subject of crashed UFOs, since we self-enforce the
>UFO cover-up.

I don't think many of the skeptical ufologists out there are
skeptical because of personal limits they put on themselves. I
think they just want some convincing evidence. Documents,
photos, videos, they all look interesting but they're hardly
proof enough to convince someone that aliens are visiting Earth.
They can all be faked. And yes, I know that doesn't mean they
are fake - since I know this is the response some list members
will immediately throw back - but either way it's not enough for
believer ufologists to get upset at the public for not embracing
the truth about UFOs. Any ufologist believer could whip out
documents and charts and statistics to say these things are
here, but it's gonna take more than paperwork to convince the
world at large. The world will believe when truly convincing
evidence is made available, or when the government discloses
something (which some ufologists have been swearing for years is
coming any day now).

I think any impartial ufologist who believes in the possibility
of a UFO cover-up has to also consider that there isn't a cover-
up. If they're already sold on one answer, either way, and
aren't willing to consider any alternative that either includes
or excludes aliens, then they're just not a very good
investigator. A good investigator considers ALL solutions. Some
ufologists take this to mean that only those are will to believe
in the UFO Conspiracy have the frame of mind to grasp the real
truth; but I think if you're not willing to accept that it's all
a bunch of hooey, then you're just as lost.

Ultimately nothing needs to be said. The proof most people need
hasn't been found yet. Cite your cases, posts your photos. Most
people don't believe and they never will until something big
comes along to convince them otherwise. And you can begrudge
them for that if you want, call them skeptics and debunkers and
ignorant. It doesn't change the fact that the believers just
don't have the goods.

Cheers,

Ian Rogers





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   Oct > Oct 5

               Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:13:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 07:11:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Friedman


>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 10:14:59 -0400
>Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents?

>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:49:00 +0200
>>Subject: Special Declassified Documents?

>>For the last year I've been analysing declassified documents.
>>They are certainly very interesting - many documents mention
>>flying discs. Maybe some of you will know those documents.

><snip>

>You might want to visit:

>www.blackvault.com

>which contains these and hundreds (if not thousands) of other
>documents that have been obtained through the FOIA process.

>While not exactly organized, and for the most part unsearchable
>(unless there have been changes I'm not aware of), this is a
>treasure trove of material for those willing to wade through it.


Because of Bruce Maccabee's FOIA efforts back in the 1970s,
these and almost 1600 other pages of FBI-UFO material were
released.

They are briefly discussed in my 1979 documentary UFOs ARE Real!
and, of course, in detail in Bruce's 2000 book UFO FBI
Connection (327 pages Llewellyn).

These papers include letters to inquiring citizens from J. Edgar
Hoover saying that the subject of UFOs "is not and never has
been a responsibility of the FBI".

Just another lie from the government.

The FBI even offers a standard package of UFO materials for
those making FOIA requests.


Stan Friedman
www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfhome.html







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:37:41 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 07:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:00:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

><snip>

>>>The 1967 Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia incident is just one of these
>>>well documented. With this particular UFO crash, it was not UFO
>>>investigators that decided that to label the object that crashed
>>>off shore a "UFO" but the numerous official government, military
>>>and RCMP documents uncovered from the archives and through
>>>Access to Information requests that called it that! There are
>>>many living witnesses to this UFO crash, many of whom played
>>>major roles in the attempted recovery operation (which
>>>eventually involved the U.S. and the interest of the Soviets
>>>too). Of these witnesses, there are some so disturbed by what
>>>they saw and experienced that refuse to discuss it with people
>>>other than their immediate families and closest friends. Unlike
>>>the Roswell UFO crash, thanks partly to the quick response by
>>>the Canadian navy which allowed for a rescue and repair mission
>>>(by the ETs themselves?) to go ahead with little interference,
>>>this UFO crash had a happier ending. Further details about this
>>>UFO crash - and the province wide UFO flap - leading to it can
>>>be found in Don Ledger's and Chris Styles' book 'Dark Object'.

><snip>

>>Also I am not aware that any hard evidence that Shag Harbor was
>>a 'crash' in the sense that the craft was unable to leave. Has
>>someone recovered parts of it?

>Before I reply to your question, let me remind everyone on the
>UFO UpDates List of the 'Majestic Documents/UFO Crash Retrieval
>Conference' in Las Vegas, Nevada from November 14-16, 2003. One
>of the top researchers in the UFO crash/retrieval field, Leonard
>Stringfield, is no longer with us and will not be there.

>In Stringfield's books, monograms and lectures he fully
>documented dozens of UFO crashes, many of which were not
>previously known to ufologists or had since been forgotten
>because no one bothered to do any follow-ups. Of course a few of
>these UFO crashes were suspected of being disinformation from
>annonymous or unreliable sources or outright hoaxes, but most
>could not be so readily dismissed. One such case is the Cape
>Girardeau, Missouri UFO crash of 1941 which predates the Roswell
>UFO crash of 1947 and the references to this same incident in
>the "new" Majestic Documents.

A big word of caution is necessary here. Yes, Len listed a total
of around 60 crashes in his Monographs on Crash Retrievals.
However, Len was more properly described as a collector of such
stories than as a researcher of these stories because he didn't
have the time or money to do much investigation.

Unfortunately, he rarely would provide any information to those
who were willing to spend the time and money.

In one case, when Bill Moore and I were able to check, we found
that there was really nothing to back the case up. He reported
in the MUFON Journal about Sappho Henderson's story of what her
husband Oliver Wendell Henderson claimed about flying some of
the wreckage to Wright Field etc. He wouldn't ask her for the
names of others to whom Pappy might have spoken and wouldn't
tell me where to find her. I was able to, at the expense of
Unsolved Mysteries, got several names, one of whom, a retired
USAF Colonel wrote a glowing letter about Pappy, his WW 2 pilot,
who had indeed told him the story at a group reunion... Len even
tried to keep Sappho from being on the UM program. Fortunately
she was on. Because he was known to protect identities without
doing a lot of checking, he was a perfect recipient of
disinformation.

I followed up on his Cape Girardeau case, but not through any
clues provided by Len, and was able to locate Charlette Mann the
grandaughter of Reverend Huffman and also talked to others about
him, found his obituary and even the man to whom Charlette's
father had "lent" one of the pictures.

<snip>

>A second example is Dr. Henry Azadehdel, a British-American
>physicist and UFO researcher who may have copies of more
>official UFO documents than newbie John Greenwald has on his
>extensive and very impressive web site, 'The Black Vault'. Back
>in 1978 Azadehdel personally investigated a UFO crash in Bolivia
>where he saw and photographed a crashed saucer-shaped object
>along with its five dead alien occupants (three inside and two
>outside the object). In a 1990 telephone conversation with Dr.
>Eric Walker (a distinguished scientist and suspected MJ-12
>insider), Azadehdel brought up some details about this UFO crash
>with Walker which he successfully used as bait to get Walker to
>speak a little more freely about UFOs and their occupants.

I would also express strong caution about Henry Azadehdel. There
are some serious concerns about his credentials, he spent time
in jail in the UK, and I have discussed some of his false claims
about the MJ-12 documents in my 35 page, 1994 paper "Operation
Majestic 12? YES!" ($4. including postage from UFORI, POB 958,
Houlton, ME 04730-0958)

>With so many skeptical ufologists who have personal limits as to
>what they are prepared to accept, there is no need for official
>secrecy on the subject of crashed UFOs, since we self-enforce the
>UFO cover-up.

I should also point out that there are different standards for
determining truth in criminal matters and in civil matters in
the courts. A prepondernce of the evidence is easier to provide
than beyond a reasonable doubt.

Every so often people on the List want absolute proof..... The
nature of the beast would seem to suggest that a preponderance
is, under the circumstances, a more appropriate, and attainable,
goal.


Stan Friedman








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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 15:01:13 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 07:50:37 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Friedman


>From: Noel Herbiet <2orpheus6@telkomsa.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:25:57 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:32:59 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:31:03 -0800
>>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

><snip>

>>If you really believe that an alien science thousands of years
>>in advance of our own will use our concepts of "magnetism" and
>>"magnetic field" then you have an astonding faith in our current
>>level of insight into the physical world. You must be aware of
>>current attempts to devise a version of "string theory" that
>>would collapse our currently divided understanding of the "four
>>forces" (electromagnetism, gravity and the strong and weak
>>nuclear forces) down into a unitary phenomenon. As soon as that
>>is achieved "magnetism" will be merely a folk concept.

>>Also I am not aware that any hard evidence that Shag Harbor was
>>a 'crash' in the sense that the craft was unable to leave. Has
>>someone recovered parts of it?

>My compliments on your thoughts re. alien technology above.
>At least this shows some consideration outside the envelope
>of our current knowledge. We should not assume anything
>when it comes to ET technology, regardless of what effects
>we may witness such sightings have on the environment.

>As there is no close physical point of origin for these craft,
>its fair to say that they must have mastered some form of
>faster-than-light travel or some space warp/dimensional effect
>or other.

>Our physics don't even come close to the realization of such
>concepts, so lets not judge ET technology within the confines of
>those limitations.

It seems to me that 39 Light years, the distant to Zeta 1 and
Zeta 2 Reticuli, is just down the street on a cosmic scale.

There may well be local bases on the other side of the moon or
on several other locations within the solar system. At 99.99% of
the speed of light, it only takes about 6 months pilot time to
go that far.

I once did 25 lectures in 15 states in 35 days without ever
being home within that period.

We do have some great reports of huge motherships probably
carrying dozens of Earth Excursion Modules.

Nuclear fusion (D- He-3) for example, allows one to kick out
charged particles having 10 million times as much energy per
particle as in chemical rockets. This not to say that they do
not know things we don't.

Friedman's law: "Technological progress comes from doing things
differently in an unpredictable way".


Stan Friedman







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                    Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:43:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:16:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Hatch


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:46:19 -0300
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:38:36 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:55:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
>>>>Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>>Is it me or did someone finally find out whether the Alpha
>>>>Centauri star system has planets or not?

><snip>

>>>As for "planets next door", many have been discovered in recent
>>>years that are members of our own solar system which the public
>>>is still largely unaware of, including Zecharia Sitchin's
>>>"Anunnaki" ETs from the alleged 12th planet "Nibiru" in the
>>>outer regions of our solar system! Yes Virginia, there are
>>>(previously unknown to man and Anunnaki) planets next door!

>>Are you saying you buy into Sitchin's planet Nibiru?

>>Thanks to Sitchin's fast selling books, the public is much less
>>unaware of Nibiru than the astronomers. Try mentioning Sitchin,
>>Nibiru and the Anunaki to an astronomer. I'd like to be the fly
>>on the wall if you do. It is Sitchin who posits Nibiru etc., not
>>from some scientific discovery, but by weaving his stories into
>>ancient manuscripts. I will leave the merits of his archeology
>>to the proper experts, but his astronomy would not make 3rd rate
>>science fiction.

>>He posits a 12th planet with an orbit so elliptical that it
>>would go far far beyond the orbit of Pluto at apogee .. into a
>>cryogenic realm so dark and cold that oxygen and nitrogen (air)
>>would not only liquefy, but freeze. The Anunaki had better
>>dress warmly for their centuries long winters. Those would turn
>>vodka to stone, and oh yes! They better hold their breath.

>All of the foregoing aside, wasn't there a 10th planet - or
>asteroid [they aren't sure which] - discovered out past the orbit
>of Pluto, last year?


All sorts of things are probably due for discovery now that we
have telescopes trained on the Kuiper Belt. Ice balls the size
of Earth are not out of the question.

On page 307 of Sitchin's "Stairway to Heaven" paperback - $6.99
in Canada - we are presented with a map of Palestine etc.,
showing nothing less than the Mission Control Center for the
Anunaki (having thawed out I presume) somewhere just north of
the Gaza Strip.

My original question remains, and I must add a new one:

At what point do we exclude those 33who stir Sitchin, Billy Meier,
the Santilli Autopsy tapes (etc.) from these discussions?
Frankly, I would prefer they did not show up at my Redwood City
door.

I suggest they remain in the larger mix however. This allows the
chance of something really new, and offers comic relief in the
interim.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Christol

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:46:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:21:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Christol


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:46:19 -0300
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

<snip>

>Are you saying you buy into Sitchin's planet Nibiru?

>Thanks to Sitchin's fast selling books, the public is much less
>unaware of Nibiru than the astronomers. Try mentioning Sitchin,
>Nibiru and the Anunaki to an astronomer. I'd like to be the fly
>on the wall if you do. It is Sitchin who posits Nibiru etc., not
>from some scientific discovery, but by weaving his stories into
>ancient manuscripts. I will leave the merits of his archeology
>to the proper experts, but his astronomy would not make 3rd rate
>science fiction.

>He posits a 12th planet with an orbit so elliptical that it
>would go far far beyond the orbit of Pluto at apogee .. into a
>cryogenic realm so dark and cold that oxygen and nitrogen (air)
>would not only liquefy, but freeze. The Anunaki had better
>dress warmly for their centuries long winters. Those would turn
>vodka to stone, and oh yes! They better hold their breath.

>All of the foregoing aside, wasn't there a 10th planet - or
>asteroid [they aren't sure which] - discovered out past the
>orbit of Pluto, last year?


From reading Sitchin's "12th Planet," I understood that the
Planet's orbit traversed two star systems at one time. I am
going strictly from memory, here, but apparently the planet
broke free of the one star and entered into an elliptical orbit
which takes 3600 years to make one orbit.

Sitchin says that the Sumerian tablets claim that the Anunaki
landed in Mesopotamia and from there traversed the earth, mining
"gold" which they allegedly transported back to Nibiru to seed
in the planet's atmosphere. Why would they spread gold dust
particles into the atmosphere? Sounds to me they were creating
an amplifier thus allowing the rays of the sun to heat the
planet as it made it's traverse of the two systems.

Since I have never seen this alleged planet, I cannot say if
there is any truth to the legends, but if there is, it may very
well help us understand how we, as a species, developed and who
our progenitors are.


Mike








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              Re: On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting? -

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:06:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:31:55 -0400
Subject: Re: On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting? -


>From: Ralph Howard <rhjr@speedfactory.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:29:37 -0400
>Subject: On-Ground Assistance With Montana Sighting?

>I have two professional colleagues who had an unusual sighting
>in Bozeman, Montana, early on the morning of Sunday Aug. 31st.

>Their sighting was long-duration (4 minutes) and involved a
>distant, but brilliant, moving "point" that stopped, hovered
>motionless, separated into two, both then remained stationary,
>before they eventually lost sight of them due to their direction
>of travel in a car.

>While I've completed witness interviews, some basic map work,
>and so on, what is really needed is for someone on the ground to
>ask around about possible solutions involving either the
>military or perhaps fire-fighting operations.

>So: Can anyone recommend, or does anyone know of, someone in the
>vicinity of Bozeman, Montana who might work with me on this?
>Local asking-around in Bozeman might well produce a reasonable
>solution.

>Any contacts forwarded would be greatly appreciated.


Ralph,

You said: "Their sighting was long-duration (4 minutes) and
involved a distant, but brilliant, moving "point" that stopped,
hovered motionless, separated into two, both then remained
stationary, before they eventually lost sight of them due to
their direction of travel in a car."

By "distant," are you talking about yards or miles?

By "brilliant, moving point" are you talking like a point an
ball point pin would make on a piece of paper, or a first
magnitude star?

If you are talking about miles distance and first magnitude
star, "brilliant" light, then I would suggest that perhaps what
the viewer was observing was a pair of Military Helicopters
either approaching his position, or moving at an angle, thus
causing the two spot lights to appear as one.

Thus when they hovered, one moved from beside the other, thus
appearing to "separate into two."

Then they simply continued on their flight path, away from the
observer.

One might check to see if there are any Army or Air Force Bases
along the flight path of the lights. You may well find that this
is where the "light" originated.

I hope this gives you something to consider in your
investigation.


Mike








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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 21:50:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:55:39 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Lehmberg


>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:34:19 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:00:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Eric Jacobson <ejacobson74@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>>With so many skeptical ufologists who have personal limits as to
>>what they are prepared to accept, there is no need for official
>>secrecy on the subject of crashed UFOs, since we self-enforce the
>>UFO cover-up.

>I don't think many of the skeptical ufologists out there are
>skeptical because of personal limits they put on themselves. I
>think they just want some convincing evidence. Documents,
>photos, videos, they all look interesting but they're hardly
>proof enough to convince someone that aliens are visiting Earth.
>They can all be faked. And yes, I know that doesn't mean they
>are fake - since I know this is the response some list members
>will immediately throw back - but either way it's not enough for
>believer ufologists to get upset at the public for not embracing
>the truth about UFOs. Any ufologist believer could whip out
>documents and charts and statistics to say these things are
>here, but it's gonna take more than paperwork to convince the
>world at large. The world will believe when truly convincing
>evidence is made available, or when the government discloses
>something (which some ufologists have been swearing for years is
>coming any day now).

>I think any impartial ufologist who believes in the possibility
>of a UFO cover-up has to also consider that there isn't a cover-
>up. If they're already sold on one answer, either way, and
>aren't willing to consider any alternative that either includes
>or excludes aliens, then they're just not a very good
>investigator. A good investigator considers ALL solutions. Some
>ufologists take this to mean that only those are will to believe
>in the UFO Conspiracy have the frame of mind to grasp the real
>truth; but I think if you're not willing to accept that it's all
>a bunch of hooey, then you're just as lost.

>Ultimately nothing needs to be said. The proof most people need
>hasn't been found yet. Cite your cases, posts your photos. Most
>people don't believe and they never will until something big
>comes along to convince them otherwise. And you can begrudge
>them for that if you want, call them skeptics and debunkers and
>ignorant. It doesn't change the fact that the believers just
>don't have the goods.


This is just another, but very compellingly written this time,
"...show me the ray gun or anti-grav device or alien
technology..." fallacial dodge. The evidence extant is more than
enough to begin a real look into the entire field that has only
been -pretended- thus far. That's the reason for your "lack of
progress."

Any _one_ of the following is enough for an in depth
investigation to be truly initiated that is not forthcoming, but
again: the quality _anecdotal_ evidence, compounded with the
vetted _photographic_ evidence, and then added to the catalogued
-historical- evidence, gives _every_ indication that a
ufological contention regarding that evidence _must_ be more
real than not... Moreover, framed by the serious _artistic_
evidence, qualified by the actualized _physical_ evidence, and
then compellingly convinced by the conclusively personal
evidence (...if you've been so afflicted), I (and perhaps Mr.
Friedman et al) can only be annoyingly astonished by the
continued reluctance of _some_ to face the highly strange
music... that just cannot be _forever_ marginalized...

Moreover... the community you regard so highly (but I perceive
as the hijacked and thoroughly corrupted mainstream), provided
with the evidence you say is lacking (and a clear symptom of a
lack of verity?) would only move their evidentiary horizon
further south and find a way to invalidate that evidence, too!
They must! If they don't... it is the beginning of the end for
them, and they know it (Please, please... ask me who "they" are
<g>). It's not the lack of evidence, sir, it's the lack of
informed consent and aggregate courage to embrace the evidence
that is there... and has been there.

Something's happening, we're just not openly looking for it...
it's not in the best interest of the few, frankly. I think the
future dictates that we be braver than that. And, It's not "life
support" that fuels interest in UFOs... it's the ongoing and
continuing evidence that they exist... that they are real...
that we are not alone... that pushes those evidentiary flames
higher and higher until the denial, in its regard, melts like a
cheap tallow candle.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:10:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:59:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Balaskas


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:38:36 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:55:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

<snip>

>>As for "planets next door", many have been discovered in recent
>>years that are members of our own solar system which the public
>>is still largely unaware of, including Zecharia Sitchin's
>>"Anunnaki" ETs from the alleged 12th planet "Nibiru" in the
>>outer regions of our solar system! Yes Virginia, there are
>>(previously unknown to man and Anunnaki) planets next door!

>Uh Nick?

>Are you saying you buy into Sitchin's planet Nibiru?

Hi Larry!

No, not at all! The point I was trying to make is that Sitchin's
claim that the twelve "planets" (including our Moon, really a
satellite and our Sun, really a star) that made up our solar
system could not have possibly been known to the Sumerians
unless the Anunnaki (space people) told us, is not supported by
the latest facts. Not only are there other satellites bigger
than our Moon but many new planets or large planetoids including
Chiron (between Saturn and Uranus), Varuna and 2001 KX76 (both
beyond the orbit of Neptune and about the same diameter as Pluto
- which is really a double planet!) have been discovered.

Considering binary star and multiple star systems are not rare
and many planets larger than Jupiter orbiting other stars have
been already been found, until a complete infra-red survey of
the entire sky is made, we cannot yet rule out that a "brown
dwarf" (an object which could be classified either as a huge
planet or a star depending on the amount of energy it radiates)
lurks out there in the depths of our solar system. I suspect
that such a brown dwarf, who some have named Nemesis, will be
found.

>Thanks to Sitchin's fast selling books, the public is much less
>unaware of Nibiru than the astronomers. Try mentioning Sitchin,
>Nibiru and the Anunaki to an astronomer. I'd like to be the fly
>on the wall if you do. It is Sitchin who posits Nibiru etc., not
>from some scientific discovery, but by weaving his stories into
>ancient manuscripts.  I will leave the merits of his archeology
>to the proper experts, but his astronomy would not make 3rd rate
>science fiction.

>He posits a 12th planet with an orbit so elliptical that it
>would go far far beyond the orbit of Pluto at apogee .. into a
>cryogenic realm so dark and cold that oxygen and nitrogen (air)
>would not only liquefy, but freeze.  The Anunaki had better
>dress warmly for their centuries long winters. Those would turn
>vodka to stone, and oh yes! They better hold their breath.

<snip>

Talking about cryogenic realms, it was announced that physicists
in one of labs here at York University produced, for the first
time in Canada, Bose-Einstein condensate, a new state of matter
that exists only at absolute zero - much colder than the alleged
planet Nibiru, home of the Anunnaki. I thought I felt a cold
draft a few days ago around my office...  ;o)


Nick Balaskas







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                       News Items For UFO Magazine UK

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:25:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:30:09 -0400
Subject: News Items For UFO Magazine UK


Dear Colleagues,

As I'm helping out a little with UFO MAGAZINE in the UK after
Graham Birdsall's untimely death.

I would appreciate it if you have any UFO news items to let me
have them please.

Many thanks,

Philip Mantle
philipmantle@hotmail.com








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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:45:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:38:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Balaskas


>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:34:19 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:00:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>Fortunately, there are many witnesses, including ufologists and
>>insiders, who have handled and tested actual UFO crash wreckage
>>and have examined and dissected the bodies of the occupants of
>>these UFOs. Let me give just two examples which I am sure you
>>may have known about but since overlooked (like NICAP which
>>investigated UFOs and believed some were ET in origin but would
>>dismiss UFO cases involving sightings of the aliens themselves).

<snip>

>Sorry I haven't been around for a while. Work and writing have
>been taking precedent. But I do read the messages now and again,
>and I've always been a fan of rare-contributor Nick Balaskas,
>who I'm co-hosting "Cosmic Horizons" with on Radio Glendon.
>Sorry you couldn't come out to the show last night, Nick. I was
>looking forward to chatting with you again.

Hi Ian!

I also enjoy hearing what you have to say as a guest on Errol's
"Strange Days... Indeed", the radio program about UFOs. I was
still recovering from the 48-Hour Bug (more like 96 hours for
someone my age) and had lost my radio voice so I could not come
in to the studio. I did listen to you and our other co-host,
Brad Snell on my computer now that our new weekly radio show
'Cosmic Horizons' on CKRG 89.9 FM can also be heard live all
around the world via the Internet.

From all the things you had to say on the radio and the length
of your e-mail reply below, I can see there will not be any
"dead air" on our weekly Friday afternoon radio shows (5:00 -
 6:00 p.m. ET). I'll just try to squeeze a few of my own
comments in sideways as your co-host next week!  ;o)

>I guess my question on this subject remains the same. If there
>are "many" witnesses who had handled and tested actual UFO crash
>wreckage and alien bodies, why haven't they been able to sneak
>anything out? Why do we just have their stories which could just
>be ... well, stories. Apparently the government has no problem
>with them telling their stories to UFO investigators because
>they're still alive to talk about it (yes, I'm sure someone has
>a story or two about the mysterious death of some UFO
>investigator, but let's face facts: most of the ones who talk
>are still doing so without impunity). Why can't someone sneak
>out anything and take it the New York Times or Sixty Minutes?
>It's not because the public is pigheaded and skeptically (and I
>have to say that I think it's really too bad that skepticism is
>seen as a bad thing by some in ufology; quite frankly, I'm not
>interested in knowing any UFO investigator who isn't a skeptic;
>I think we have more than enough believers in the field already,
>actually). It's because the  major evidence doesn't exist. Maybe
>the media is working with the govt to sustain the cover-up? Not
>a chance. The media has been responsible for exposing more govt
>lies and cover-ups than any other body on the planet. If the
>news was there, someone would have dug it up by now. Maybe the
>media isn't interested in UFO news because of the spin the Air
>Force put on UFOs back in the sixties? Almost believable, but
>again, no way. The proof that the U.S. govt., or any govt.,
>covered up evidence of extraterrestrial visitation would be the
>biggest news story on the planet, and every news agency on the
>globe would fight tooth and nail to be the first to report it.

When you make so many general statements and qualify your
questions by saying things like "If there are...", "why haven't
they...", "why can't someone...", "Maybe the media...", "If the
news...", "Almost believable...", etc. it is hard to argue with
one's views - unless we are talking about specifics.

Just because something is very unlikely and no identified ET
artifacts are on exhibit at some museum for all to see isn't
proof that there haven't been any UFO crashes.

>The truth is UFO news has been running on life support for years
>and years. I was out of the field for ten years, and when I came
>back no one - not a single person or organization - was any
>further to proving a single thing. There haven't been any huge
>cases, not really, no smoking guns, no disclosures. Oh sure,
>there have been some funky photos, some curious videos, and your
>list of usual suspects - the slew of shadowy govt. operatives
>speaking on condition of anonymity. But this is no different
>than what we've seen since people started seriously
>investigating UFOs. Nothing has changed.

We are still not any closer to the truth about who it was that
killed President Kennedy either.

Could it be that our present generation has been trying to
understand the UFO phenomena through "space-age eyeglasses" when
it could have some very different explanation than an ET "nuts
and bolts" one?

For example, a fellow curious and science-minded friend of mine
who is now living as a monk at a monastery in Arizona, told me
of his sightings of mystereous lights in the sky, black
helicopters flying low over his bedroom, etc.

He also told me of a few other things that I have trouble
accepting myself; things such as strange human-like creatures
appearing out of nowhere and solid material objects vanishing
before his eyes.

Although this may suggest that UFOs have an Earthly explanation
(eg. time travelers, ghosts, demons, etc.), we are still left
with hundreds of UFO trace cases (including anomolous radar
returns, often together with eye witness testimonies and/or
photos and much other supportive evidence, such as broken
branches, strange behaviour of pets, etc.) that suggest
something very real in the physical sense.

>>Azadehdel: But what amazes me, Doctor, is the frequent
>>           appearance of these objects. Does this suggest that
>>           they might have a base in one of our solar system
>>           planets?

>>Walker:    Well, we can make a point of all these, but they did
>>           not tell us.

>>Azadehdel: Have we ever been able to make contact with them on
>>           the communication basis?

>>Walker:    We promised not to tell.

>While this exchange is very ominous and suggestive, it doesn't
>really mean anything. If this person was working under a cloak
>of secrecy, would he be talking to Azadehdel in the first place?
>Not likely. And if he was, would he really give a cryptic and,
>quite frankly, revealing answer as "We promised not to tell." I
>mean, didn't he just kind of tell us with that answer? It sounds
>very Twilight Zone, but I don't that it convinces anyone of
>anything.

I agree that this little snippet in itself is very suggestive
and proves nothing - but if you are really curious enough, even
at the risk of changing your previous views, I would suggest
that you read the entire transcripts of the telephone
converstions Azadehdel had with Walker (as well as other
telephone transcripts and personal correspondence by other
researchers also with Walker). These exchanges with Walker were
published in 1991 by the Mutual UFO Network, Inc. in a book by
Grant Cameron and T. Scott Crain, Jr. titled 'UFOs, MJ-12 and
the Government'. Another explosive expose of the official UFO
cover-up (including crashed UFOs) by Grant Cameron and UFO
lobbyist Stephen G. Bassett will be appearing on the shelves of
bookstores soon.

Yes it has taken long, but the truth will be revealed.

>>With so many skeptical ufologists who have personal limits as to
>>what they are prepared to accept, there is no need for official
>>secrecy on the subject of crashed UFOs, since we self-enforce the
>>UFO cover-up.

>I don't think many of the skeptical ufologists out there are
>skeptical because of personal limits they put on themselves. I
>think they just want some convincing evidence. Documents,
>photos, videos, they all look interesting but they're hardly
>proof enough to convince someone that aliens are visiting Earth.
>They can all be faked. And yes, I know that doesn't mean they
>are fake - since I know this is the response some list members
>will immediately throw back - but either way it's not enough for
>believer ufologists to get upset at the public for not embracing
>the truth about UFOs. Any ufologist believer could whip out
>documents and charts and statistics to say these things are
>here, but it's gonna take more than paperwork to convince the
>world at large. The world will believe when truly convincing
>evidence is made available, or when the government discloses
>something (which some ufologists have been swearing for years is
>coming any day now).

>I think any impartial ufologist who believes in the possibility
>of a UFO cover-up has to also consider that there isn't a cover-
>up. If they're already sold on one answer, either way, and
>aren't willing to consider any alternative that either includes
>or excludes aliens, then they're just not a very good
>investigator. A good investigator considers ALL solutions. Some
>ufologists take this to mean that only those are will to believe
>in the UFO Conspiracy have the frame of mind to grasp the real
>truth; but I think if you're not willing to accept that it's all
>a bunch of hooey, then you're just as lost.

>Ultimately nothing needs to be said. The proof most people need
>hasn't been found yet. Cite your cases, posts your photos. Most
>people don't believe and they never will until something big
>comes along to convince them otherwise. And you can begrudge
>them for that if you want, call them skeptics and debunkers and
>ignorant. It doesn't change the fact that the believers just
>don't have the goods.

<snip>

So as I understand it Ian, it is not the lack evidence (and we
do have lots of it!) that makes you skeptical but that "they can
all be faked"?

Would you and the world be convinced if someone like the
President of the U.S. or the Pope were to say UFOs are real?
Probably not.

Our self-enforced UFO cover-up based on what we are want to
accept, reminds me of what Jesus told his disciples - "I have
spoken to you of Earthly things and you do not believe; how then
will you believe if I speak of Heavenly things? John 3:12


Nick Balaskas








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                      Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:55:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:57:40 -0400
Subject: Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out


Source: Houston Chronicle, Texas

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2137114

Oct. 4, 2003

Scientist says UFO tales far out
Saucer-buster's research data material finds home at Texas A&M

By ALLAN TURNER
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

First came the UFO, a massive, saucer-shaped craft hovering low
over the Pacific Northwest in the spring of 1967. Then, two days
later, came the beeping - a steady, two-beeps-to-the-second
sound coming from no discernible source. Locals, some bearing
rifles, flocked to the woods to hear, to puzzle, to perhaps
solve the mystery.

The night-time beeping continued for weeks. Police even thought
they heard it on their radios. When the beeping began, cows and
dogs grew agitated, then quiet. Even the loud-mouthed frogs shut
up. Civil defense experts prowled the woods to no avail. Bird-
call experts analyzed poor-quality tapes of the sound and came
up blank. Finally, at wit's end, local authorities turned to
their last hope: the crack saucer-busters at the University of
Colorado.

Within days, physical scientist Roy Craig, an investigator with
the university's Air Force-financed Condon Project - the
nation's largest, most systematic investigation of UFOs to date
- was dispatched to the scene.

What he found was the stuff of history.

Now, for the first time, scholars and others interested in the
data that led Craig and other Condon Project scientists to
conclude flying saucers probably don't exist can peruse Craig's
field notes at Texas A&M University's Cushing Memorial Library.

Included in nine boxes of files are Craig's investigative
jottings, correspondence and photographs as well as popular and
scientific articles related to alleged visits by space aliens.
Also available for examination are objects - aluminum shavings,
globs of metal and a lawn mower muffler - found at the sites of
purported UFO landings. Craig's papers join material on
ranching, military, poetry and one of the nation's top science-
fiction collections at the Cushing. And part of their value lies
in the scientific insight they can provide students of  science
fiction. "If you say the Condon report is absolute foolishness,
that there's nothing behind it, well we have nine boxes behind
it," said Hal W. Hall, curator of the Science Fiction and
Fantasy Research Collection at A&M. Thirty-five years after its
release, the Condon Project report, compiled under the
supervision of respected University of Colorado physicist Edward
U. Condon, continues to generate controversy. In 1969, the year
man first set foot on the moon, the Air Force used the report as
the basis for its decision to stop monitoring reported UFO
sightings.

Despite the study's thumbs down on verifiable visits by space
creatures, interest in extraterrestrials, fueled by movies and
other media, remains high. An Internet search for UFO-related
Web sites last week turned up more than 64,000 entries. An
estimated 1.5 million viewers recently tuned in to a television
special on the purported 1947 UFO crash in Roswell, N.M.

"UFOs are popular things," Craig said in a telephone interview
from his Ignacio, Colo., home. "I think UFOs really have had an
impact on our culture. I'm not unhappy about that. I think
that's fine."

Craig, 79, who was co-author of the three-volume Condon report,
abides the controversy, which labels him an instrument in an
egregious government cover-up, with good humor.

Once, Craig was visited by a UFO researcher who was certain the
preserved bodies of 16 space creatures removed from a flying
saucer said to have crashed at Aztec, N.M. - a short distance
from Ignacio - were stored at the scientist's ranch.

All the visitor found were several dozen llamas Craig raises for
the pet market. But the visitor was undaunted." 'If it weren't
true, why would Roy Craig be here?'" Craig recalled. "I
confirmed all of his suspicions. He wrote a 500-page book about
it."

Craig is not above having fun with folks from outer space.
Shortly after the university report's release, he authored a
tongue-in-cheek psuedo-folk song dealing with flying saucers.
Above an accompaniment of guitar and beeps and whines, a syrupy-
voiced songstress intones the virtues of galactic travelers to
Earth.

Craig also is author of UFOs: An Insider's View of the Official
Quest for Evidence, published by University of North Texas
Press.

Craig admits that he entered the Condon Project hoping to find
persuasive evidence that space creatures have visited Earth. "I
was looking for physical evidence," he said. "I was hoping that
it was more than just something in somebody's mind. I would like
to have found a vehicle or some strange alien. But it didn't
turn out that way."

Although the Condon Project report is more than three decades
old, Craig said he doesn't think there's a need for a new,
comprehensive probe. "Not unless something different happens.
The report's not really outdated. It's pretty firm," he said.

Colm Kelleher, administrator of the Las Vegas-based National
Institute for Discovery Science, sharply disagreed. "I do
believe the UFO phenomenon is still with us and worth an
impartial investigation using scientific methodology," he said.

In some ways, Kelleher's organization is a privately funded
version of the Condon Project.

In 1999, the group set up a UFO hot line, receiving more than
5,000 accounts of purported encounters with space vehicles.

"We very quickly discarded 80 to 90 percent of them as not
worthy of investigation - Vandenberg Air Force Base launches,
space shuttles, Venus low on the horizon. You name it and people
will report it," Kelleher said. But some of the remaining cases
proved tantalizing.

"We haven't found any smoking guns," Kelleher said. "But with
sufficient resources and sufficient persistence, scientific
investigation will eventually yield results. It's a slow
process. We think true believers and debunkers are in the same
camp. Neither produces anything particularly useful. The true
scientific approach is to focus on the data rather than the
interpretation. We are drowning in way too much interpretation
with very little data."

In his investigations, Craig encountered a wide variety of
people. "They were all over the spectrum," he said. "Some were
businessmen. Some of them held dependable, responsible jobs and
they seemed like normal people. They generally seemed to believe
what they were saying."

In the fall of 1967, Craig interviewed a man who claimed his car
stopped suddenly, its radio and lights failing, as a flying
saucer passed overhead early one morning as he traveled a lonely
rural road.

Craig ultimately dismissed the middle-age businessman's claims,
though, when scientific tests showed the auto had not been
subjected to a strong magnetic field and that its chipping paint
and pitted windshield could be logically explained. Craig's
conclusion was buttressed by inconsistencies in the man's story.

In the summer of 1967, a 50-year-old general machine handyman
and his 11-year-old son told Craig they had snapped two Polaroid
photos of a spacecraft after a strange noise attracted their
attention.

"They looked in the direction of the noise and saw a UFO about
60 feet in diameter some 500 feet away, moving about 30 to 40
mph at an altitude of 500-600 feet," Craig wrote later. "Mr. A
snapped two pictures during the 15-20 seconds before the object
departed at a speed estimated to be 2,000 mph."

Craig noted that the spacecraft in the photos strongly resembled
a pot lid atop a pie plate.

Careful examination of the photos, measuring the size of the
UFO's image and factoring in the degree of focus of other
objects in the picture, indicated the spaceship had not been 60
feet in diameter as claimed - but about the size of a pie
plate.

Time and again Craig's hopes would rise when he learned of a
promising UFO sighting, only to be dashed when he investigated.
Was he ever almost convinced of the reality of UFOs?

"I don't think you could say I was ever `almost convinced' in
any of these cases," Craig said. "There was always some
discrepancy that just didn't add up."

In the case of the mysterious beeps, Craig said, researchers
quickly dismissed the reported UFO sightings as insubstantial.
But the strange noises were another matter.

Arming themselves with an array of high-tech gadgetry --
 military infrared sniper scope; tape recorders; directional
microphone audio detector; and cameras loaded with infrared,
ultraviolet and conventional high-speed film - Craig and his
colleagues staked out the woods.

Throughout the night they heard the beeps.

"It lasted not more than 10 seconds and seemed to come from a
direction different from its usual location," a clearly
perplexed Craig wrote.

The next night, Craig and his team packed their gear to another
wooded spot.

Nary a sound was heard.

A morning chat with the sheriff solved the mystery.

Sometime in the night, a local farmer, alarmed at the endless
beeping around his house, blasted into the treetops - and
brought down an owl. Recorded calls of the elusive saw-whet owl
matched perfectly the recorded mystery beeps.

The tiny owl, only 6 inches long, easily was overlooked in dense
forest foliage, Craig noted in his report, allowing beep hunters
"to conclude that the sound came from a point in space that was
not occupied by a physical object."











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   Oct > Oct 5

                            The Sisyphus Complex

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 03:26:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:48:56 -0400
Subject: The Sisyphus Complex


From the Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: Sis-y-phus
Pronunciation: 'si-s&-f&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from Greek Sisyphos:

a legendary king of Corinth condemned eternally to repeat the
cycle of rolling a heavy rock up a hill in Hades only to have it
roll down again as it nears the top

Don't know if I've made up a new phrase but it's how I felt
sometimes when researching UFOs. Something was always just out
of reach or soon as you got to the top, you had to start all
over again.

Best,

Greg







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                Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 8:29:5 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:51:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Aldrich


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:13:36 -0300
>Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents?

>>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 10:14:59 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents?

>>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:49:00 +0200
>>>Subject: Special Declassified Documents?

>>>For the last year I've been analysing declassified documents.
>>>They are certainly very interesting - many documents mention
>>>flying discs. Maybe some of you will know those documents.

>><snip>

>>You might want to visit:

>>www.blackvault.com

>>which contains these and hundreds (if not thousands) of other
>>documents that have been obtained through the FOIA process.

>>While not exactly organized, and for the most part unsearchable
>>(unless there have been changes I'm not aware of), this is a
>>treasure trove of material for those willing to wade through it.

>Because of Bruce Maccabee's FOIA efforts back in the 1970s,
>these and almost 1600 other pages of FBI-UFO material were
>released.

>They are briefly discussed in my 1979 documentary UFOs ARE Real!
>and, of course, in detail in Bruce's 2000 book UFO FBI
>Connection (327 pages Llewellyn).

>These papers include letters to inquiring citizens from J. Edgar
>Hoover saying that the subject of UFOs "is not and never has
>been a responsibility of the FBI".

>Just another lie from the government.

>The FBI even offers a standard package of UFO materials for
>those making FOIA requests.


The FBI documents are on line at

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo.htm

The CIA, NSA, and DOD also have extensive UFO documents on line
at the FOIA portions of their sites.



Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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   Oct > Oct 5

                   Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 9:28:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:59:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Aldrich


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:46:19 -0300
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:38:36 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:55:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:45:54 EDT
>>>>Subject: Alpha Centauri Questions

<snip>

>All of the foregoing aside, wasn't there a 10th planet - or
>asteroid [they aren't sure which] - discovered out past the orbit
>of Pluto, last year?


Hi Don, List

Here is a list of Trans-Neputune objects discovered to-date:

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/lists/TNOs.html

Some TNO objects are very interesting

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/kuiper-01c.html

http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v35n4/dps2003/71.htm

Discussion of the Kupier Belt and Oort objects

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/kboc.html

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/oort.htm

Other objects in the outer solar system, Centaurs, etc.

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/cfa/ps/lists/Centaurs.html



As for Alpha Centuri, as I remember it, this is a three-star
system, any planets running around in here would surely have
rather odd courses, be torn apart by gravitational interactions
or fall into one of the stars.

There is a proposed mission to Pluto and beyond on the drawing
board.

Regards,

Jan


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135






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                   09-12-03 - Vancouver, British Columbia

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 06:19:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:04:00 -0400
Subject: 09-12-03 - Vancouver, British Columbia


Vancouver, British Columbia

Date:  September 12, 2003
Time:  9:00 p.m.

Hello Brian,

I've decided to report a UFO sighting that took place on Friday,
 9:00 p.m., Sept  12, 2003. I was leaving from the front of my
apartment building on the south side of W.2nd ave and Maple st.
in Kitsilano. I immediately noticed a bright yellow/red round
object  in the sky, traveling from West to East at about the
same height as Grouse mountain. It seemed to be over the Eastern
North Shore mountains/Pitt Meadows area, or, even as close as
the Second Narrows bridge vicinity.Very difficult to judge the
locale, exactly.Anyhow, I watched it for a good 5 seconds before
it disappeared behind obstructing buildings in the downtown.

I would like to believe that it was a jet fighter going crazy,
but ,no flashing lights or sound. A jet helicopter? Doubtful.
Too large and fast, I'm afraid. Again, it was covering a fair
distance in the short time I saw, and was changing levels
somewhat, giving me the impression that it was almost floating
while traveling, rather than going in a directly straight line
from West to East.Very interesting, indeed. I wish that I could
add more to my story, but that is all I can really tell you.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                    Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:13:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:07:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger


>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:46:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:46:19 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

><snip>

>>Are you saying you buy into Sitchin's planet Nibiru?

>>Thanks to Sitchin's fast selling books, the public is much less
>>unaware of Nibiru than the astronomers. Try mentioning Sitchin,
>>Nibiru and the Anunaki to an astronomer. I'd like to be the fly
>>on the wall if you do. It is Sitchin who posits Nibiru etc., not
>>from some scientific discovery, but by weaving his stories into
>>ancient manuscripts. I will leave the merits of his archeology
>>to the proper experts, but his astronomy would not make 3rd rate
>>science fiction.

>>He posits a 12th planet with an orbit so elliptical that it
>>would go far far beyond the orbit of Pluto at apogee .. into a
>>cryogenic realm so dark and cold that oxygen and nitrogen (air)
>>would not only liquefy, but freeze. The Anunaki had better
>>dress warmly for their centuries long winters. Those would turn
>>vodka to stone, and oh yes! They better hold their breath.

>>All of the foregoing aside, wasn't there a 10th planet - or
>>asteroid [they aren't sure which] - discovered out past the
>>orbit of Pluto, last year?

>From reading Sitchin's "12th Planet," I understood that the
>Planet's orbit traversed two star systems at one time. I am
>going strictly from memory, here, but apparently the planet
>broke free of the one star and entered into an elliptical orbit
>which takes 3600 years to make one orbit.

>Sitchin says that the Sumerian tablets claim that the Anunaki
>landed in Mesopotamia and from there traversed the earth, mining
>"gold" which they allegedly transported back to Nibiru to seed
>in the planet's atmosphere. Why would they spread gold dust
>particles into the atmosphere? Sounds to me they were creating
>an amplifier thus allowing the rays of the sun to heat the
>planet as it made it's traverse of the two systems.

>Since I have never seen this alleged planet, I cannot say if
>there is any truth to the legends, but if there is, it may very
>well help us understand how we, as a species, developed and who
>our progenitors are.


Mike,

None of the above has anything to do with my post, yesterday,
that dealt with the planet discovered last year, orbiting either
-  as Nick has mentioned - outside Neptune's orbit or outside
Pluto's.

Best,

Don Ledger







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                           BUFOSC's 6th Conference

From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:33:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:10:40 -0400
Subject: BUFOSC's 6th Conference


BUFOSCs 6th Charity Conference Saturday 6th Dec 2003
11am - 5pm
Waterloo Community Centre
Waterloo Rd.,
Runcorn Cheshire

Speakers Eric Morris
Secret World of the Ufolofist

Ananda Sirisensa
The Disclosure Project

Roy Bennett
Staffordshire Secret UFO's

5 Pounds Sterling for the day
No Concessions
Book stalls
Food hot & cold
Videos of BUFOSC's last Conferences on sale.
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                Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 07:58:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:05:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents? - Kaeser


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:13:36 -0300
>Subject: Re: Special Declassified Documents?

<snip>

>Because of Bruce Maccabee's FOIA efforts back in the 1970s,
>these and almost 1600 other pages of FBI-UFO material were
>released.

>They are briefly discussed in my 1979 documentary UFOs ARE Real!
>and, of course, in detail in Bruce's 2000 book UFO FBI
>Connection (327 pages Llewellyn).

>These papers include letters to inquiring citizens from J. Edgar
>Hoover saying that the subject of UFOs "is not and never has
>been a responsibility of the FBI".

>Just another lie from the government.

>The FBI even offers a standard package of UFO materials for
>those making FOIA requests.

Correct. Bruce and many others are to be commended for their
efforts in obtaining this information, which is most likely just
a small percentage of the total number of documents that the
Government has on the subject.

The FBI, NSA, CIA and others have all put FOIA documents up on
the Internet as part of the E-FOIA directive, and each is a
"Packet" of material that they've compiled based on previous
responses to inquiries and to my knowledge these compilations
are rarely if ever modified to include new material. I believe
the FBI material that is now on line is the same material that I
(and others) obtained in the mid 90's, which I included on a CD-
ROM that is being sold by the Fund. This is the same time period
that the Black Vault began its quest for documents.

The problem with this process of information release is that the
agencies have the ability to point us to their standard packets
of material and advise that we should check there for the
documents we're looking for. It is very rare that we have a
specific letter or memorandum that we're seeking, and our
searches are often for generic subject areas that these packets
would fulfill. This is way that agencies can delay or sidetrack
our quest, and it is used to its fullest. Unfortunately, there
are also millions of pages of documents still awaiting
declassification review, and they probably date back to the
Civil War. This declassification effort is not one that is being
funded very highly, so it will be decades before all of these
documents are reviewed, and the job will never be completed as
more documents are added to the pile.

This doesn't mean that the process if useless, but has its
limitations as far as general research is concerned (IMO).


Steve







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                Re: Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:35:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:24:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out - Ledger


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:55:27 -0300
>Subject: Scientist Says UFO Tales Far Out


>Source: Houston Chronicle, Texas

>http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2137114

>Oct. 4, 2003

>Scientist says UFO tales far out
>Saucer-buster's research data material finds home at Texas A&M

>By ALLAN TURNER
>Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

>First came the UFO, a massive, saucer-shaped craft hovering low
>over the Pacific Northwest in the spring of 1967. Then, two days
>later, came the beeping - a steady, two-beeps-to-the-second
>sound coming from no discernible source. Locals, some bearing
>rifles, flocked to the woods to hear, to puzzle, to perhaps
>solve the mystery.

>The night-time beeping continued for weeks. Police even thought
>they heard it on their radios. When the beeping began, cows and
>dogs grew agitated, then quiet. Even the loud-mouthed frogs shut
>up. Civil defense experts prowled the woods to no avail. Bird-
>call experts analyzed poor-quality tapes of the sound and came
>up blank. Finally, at wit's end, local authorities turned to
>their last hope: the crack saucer-busters at the University of
>Colorado.

>Within days, physical scientist Roy Craig, an investigator with
>the university's Air Force-financed Condon Project - the
>nation's largest, most systematic investigation of UFOs to date
>- was dispatched to the scene.

>What he found was the stuff of history.

>Now, for the first time, scholars and others interested in the
>data that led Craig and other Condon Project scientists to
>conclude flying saucers probably don't exist can peruse Craig's
>field notes at Texas A&M University's Cushing Memorial Library.

<sbip>

>A morning chat with the sheriff solved the mystery.

>Sometime in the night, a local farmer, alarmed at the endless
>beeping around his house, blasted into the treetops - and
>brought down an owl. Recorded calls of the elusive saw-whet owl
>matched perfectly the recorded mystery beeps.

>The tiny owl, only 6 inches long, easily was overlooked in dense
>forest foliage, Craig noted in his report, allowing beep hunters
>"to conclude that the sound came from a point in space that was
>not occupied by a physical object."

It's amazing isn't it that least effectual scientist, Condon's
'Yes Man', if you will, on the committee gets the hearing re.
the Condon report while the others fall by the wayside. Allan
Turner is not much of a reporter is he. He didn't dig very far
into the report and the controversy surrounding its being
tainted, by Condon himself and Low.


Best,

Don Ledger








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              Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 11:22:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:44:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories - Fleming


>From: James Smith <zeus001002@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:07:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Paper On ST-48 Object Trajectories

>I have taken a look at the relationship between video time tags
>and thruster pressure data for STS-113. They seem to be within
>two seconds, though I agree they do not seem to be exact.

What kind of events in the video did you match with the thruster
firings? There shouldn't be more than a few milliseconds
difference, unless you're looking at the SMPT codes, which do
have a delay of several seconds since they were put on the video
at the ground station. Of course, there shouldn't be any 1.5-
minute time warps on any of these videos, although there are on
the STS-48 video.

>It could be that these trajectories you are finding are the
>consequence of this cloud of molecules (particles?) which do
>_not_ show up on video because they are way to small. Such a
>cloud I would supect as having drag consequences at least.

The drag on shuttle debris particles moving at a speed of a few
inches per second relative to the shuttle is virtually
nonexistent. There is a gas cloud of sorts around the shuttle
consisting of traces of rocket exhaust gases and small air
leakages from the cabin and from other sources. The density of
this "atmosphere" is several hundred times greater than the
density of the Earth's atmosphere, but that's still almost
nothing at all.

I have the "Induced Environment Contamination Monitor Summary
Report" on experiments conducted during the initial shuttle
flight tests. It gives a pressure measured in the cargo bay of
10E-7 torr (the pressure of Earth's atmosphere at sea level is
760 torr). If you assume the objects in the STS-48 video are 20
feet (6 meters) from the camera, object "M5", the one with the
largest path curvature, is moving at a speed of about .01 m/s.
The radius of curvature of the trajectory, assuming again that
it's 6 meters from the camera, is about 0.6 meters. Acceleration
is velocity squared divided by the radius of curvature, so M5
would be accelerated at about 10E-4 m/s/s. That's a tiny
acceleration but far too large to be caused by drag from an
atmosphere of 10-7 torr.

The atmospheric drag force on a particle is dependent on its
shape and other factors, but it's on the order of the product of
atmospheric density, the particle's cross-sectional area, and
the square of the particle's speed. The density of air at sea
level is .001 grams/cc at a pressure of 760 torr. The density is
approximately proportional to pressure, so the density of an
atmosphere at 10-7 torr is about 10e-7 grams per cubic meter.

Assuming that M5 is a water ice particle with density of 10E6
grams per cubic meter, in order for it to be accelerated (or
really, decelerated) by drag forces from the shuttle atmosphere,
it can be no thicker in the direction of its motion than 10E-13
meters. By comparison, a hydrogen atom with a radius of about
10E-10 meters, is huge.

If the object were 6 millimeters from the camera (a thousand
times closer than the assumed 6 meters), its thickness would
have to be less than about the radius of one hydrogen atom to
achieve the angular acceleration seen in the video -- still an
unreasonably small size, even at the unreasonably close distance
of 6 millimeters from the camera.

The only thing that might work quantitatively as a "prosaic"
source of acceleration for ice particles is sublimation, which
is why I went into considerable detail about it in the article.
Sublimation fails for qualitative reasons: it cannot explain the
change from linear to curvilinear trajectories of some particles
and the sun-ward accelerations of others. I haven't considered
electrostatic forces, but even if they could produce the
observed accelerations, they'd fail for pretty much the same
qualitative reasons as sublimation.








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                     Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:23:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:46:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Boone


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:37:41 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>I should also point out that there are different standards for
>determining truth in criminal matters and in civil matters in
>the courts. A prepondernce of the evidence is easier to provide
>than beyond a reasonable doubt.

>Every so often people on the List want absolute proof..... The
>nature of the beast would seem to suggest that a preponderance
>is, under the circumstances, a more appropriate, and attainable,
>goal.


Well said and agreed.

Yet the requirement of 'tangible' proof is the only thing that
will settle this.

Without a doubt there's so much documentation out here that our
government, private industry and private citizens are and have
encountered 'extraterrestrials' and other 'beings' that in a
court of law it would probably nolo contendre' yet the public at
large are common folk who find it difficult to even be aware of
the basics of science and law.

They'll buy any other concept hook, line and sinker with no
evidence whatsoever ( i.e. ghosts, angels, demons, faeries,
shadow people ) yet you mention UFOs and you get the backoff.
That's because the other items of belief they'll go to the mat
with fists flying if their viewpoints are invalidated.

Just try saying to someone that angels don't exist and watch a
donnybrook break out. No proof, no evidence just stories and
ancient texts.

Yet you can walk in with official government documents, soil
samples that ARE tangible and they'll cower or ridicule even
though that evidence is stronger than most court cases.

Mr. Friedman, you've more than proved it, but now the hunt is on
for alternate tangibles that the public can hold in it's hands
and is cross examined by experts not frightened of peanut
gallery politics.

That tangible proof is out here in private, government, industry
hands and I'ld bet lots of it exists as door stops, paper
weights jewelry and the owners have no clue as to what it is.

I remember several incidents in Hyde Park, NY where people had
'mammoth' bones as items around the house and didn't know their
value til one fellow dug up a pool and found a complete mammoth
skeleton! It wasn't supposed to be there according to the
experts.  He sure cashed in on that one!

I'ld also bet that somewhere, somebody has items from a crash,
retrieval or trade and has either forgotten or is unaware of
it's origin. People hand things down and keep secrets.

It'll happen soon, one day, probably if the reward money was
high enough, somebody would fork it over.

Thanks,

Greg









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                                Shag Harbour

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:54:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:51:25 -0400
Subject: Shag Harbour


Greeting List

The current discussion of "crashed saucers" touched briefly on
the Shag Harbour incident. The investigation of this case is not
finished by any means. Both Chris and Don are still working on
this one.

Mike MacDonald did a documentary on the case which was shown in
Canada, and he made it available on video to members of this
List.

If the Sci-Fi Channel wanted some good material for their UFO
presentations, they might look at acquiring this one. (Or
another series which has been shown, just twice, to my
knowledge, but far from saturation, Jack Webb's and Col.
Coleman's the "Project Blue Book" series. I think both the
production values and information are very good.)

Concerning my comments on crashed saucers, one subscriber
pointed out that Ted Bloecher investigated what appeared to be a
repair of a UFO in New York state. Point taken.

Shag Harbour has a number of virtues, other such cases don't,

1) a large amount of witness testimony was recorded when this
case was not well known. Few, if any, contaminating elements are
present,

2) significant testimony by Canadian RCMP, military personnel,
and other officials exist,

3) large files of official Canadian documentation exists and are
available, and

4) the case has UFO implications about official investigations
beyond this one incident.

The APRO and NICAP files on this case have been recovered and
are in the hands of the primary investigators.

The investigation of this case and the leads to other
significant UFO information are far from exhausted.

A number of officials and people involved in the investigation
remain silent. Significant Canadian documents are still
unavailable.

There are strong NORAD and US components to this case. These
areas have not been well explored. Nor have US or NORAD
officials been forthcoming.

The Shag Harbour case could probably produce good results from
some modest financial support, some slight political influence
and possibly support in the FOIA and lawsuits areas, if
necessary.

(Disclosure: I have no economic interest here. In fact, some
expense was incurred in my search for material about this case.
I did write an assessment for Mike MacDonald to use to fund his
project, but that was as a party without any interest in the
production.)


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                      Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:10:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:52:45 -0400
Subject: Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Ledger


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 03:26:36 EDT
>Subject: The Sisyphus Complex

>From the Merriam Webster Dictionary:

>Main Entry: Sis-y-phus
>Pronunciation: 'si-s&-f&s
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Latin, from Greek Sisyphos:

>a legendary king of Corinth condemned eternally to repeat the
>cycle of rolling a heavy rock up a hill in Hades only to have it
>roll down again as it nears the top

>Don't know if I've made up a new phrase but it's how I felt
>sometimes when researching UFOs. Something was always just out
>of reach or soon as you got to the top, you had to start all
>over again.


Thanks Greg,

This is a word I'll likely use in the future. It's not only the
research but the threads that are discussed. We exhaust a
thread, though usually not resolving it-but possibly adding or
subtracting information- then move on. A few years later a new
batch of interested subscribers get on the thread [as if it was
new] and ask the same questions all ready argued and answered
some years before.

Sometimes its easier to find a smaller boulder and a hill not so
great in height.

Best,

Don Ledger








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                    Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:12:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:56:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Ledger


>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 9:28:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:46:19 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions


><snip>

>>All of the foregoing aside, wasn't there a 10th planet - or
>>asteroid [they aren't sure which] - discovered out past the orbit
>>of Pluto, last year?


>Hi Don, List

>Here is a list of Trans-Neputune objects discovered to-date:

>http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/lists/TNOs.html

>Some TNO objects are very interesting

>http://www.spacedaily.com/news/kuiper-01c.html

>http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v35n4/dps2003/71.htm

>Discussion of the Kupier Belt and Oort objects

>http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/kboc.html

>http://www.solarviews.com/eng/oort.htm

>Other objects in the outer solar system, Centaurs, etc.

>http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/cfa/ps/lists/Centaurs.html

>As for Alpha Centuri, as I remember it, this is a three-star
>system, any planets running around in here would surely have
>rather odd courses, be torn apart by gravitational interactions
>or fall into one of the stars.

>There is a proposed mission to Pluto and beyond on the drawing
>board.



Thanks Jan,

Something to keep me busy this evening.

Best,

Don








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                     Re: BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:30:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:01:34 -0400
Subject: Re: BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Pope


>From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:33:31 +0100
>Subject: BUFOSC's 6th Conference

>BUFOSCs 6th Charity Conference Saturday 6th Dec 2003
>11am - 5pm
>Waterloo Community Centre
>Waterloo Rd.,
>Runcorn Cheshire

>Speakers Eric Morris
>Secret World of the Ufolofist

Eric,

I hope this doesn't mean your talk will provoke a punch-up.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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             Research Data Of Saucer-Buster Finds Home At Texas

From: Sheyllah Salles F. Pires <sheyllah@terra.com.br>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:44:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:23:07 -0400
Subject: Research Data Of Saucer-Buster Finds Home At Texas


Source: Fort Worth Star Telegram, TX

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/6939577.htm

Posted on Sun, Oct. 05, 2003

Associated Press

HOUSTON - The work of an investigator who dismissed the
existence of flying saucers - a finding that hardly matters to
UFO believers - has been turned over to Texas A&M University.

The nine boxes of material from physical scientist Roy Craig
range from reports of visits by space aliens to purported
landing sites.

Craig's files include correspondence, photographs, popular and
scientific articles about UFOs and aliens, plus a lawn mower
muffler, aluminum shavings and globs of metal found at sites of
purported UFO landings.

They will be available for examination at A&M's Cushing Memorial
Library.

Craig was an investigator with the University of Colorado's Air
Force-financed Condon Project released 35 years ago. The Air
Force used the report in 1969 as the basis for its decision to
stop monitoring reported UFO sightings.

The report, however, didn't end worldwide interest in UFOs. A
UFO museum wanted to move Craig's documents to Roswell, N.M.,
the city known for a purported crash of an alien craft in 1947
and featured in television's "The X-Files."

"UFOs are popular things," Craig, 79, told the Houston Chronicle
in a telephone interview from his home in Ignacio, Colo. "I
think UFOs really have had an impact on our culture. I'm not
unhappy about that. I think that's fine."

A UFO researcher who once visited Craig was certain that the
preserved bodies of 16 space creatures removed from a flying
saucer said to have crashed at Aztec, N.M., were stored just
across the state line at the scientist's Colorado ranch.

The visitor, who found only several dozen llamas Craig raises
for the pet market, was undeterred. If Craig wasn't hiding the
bodies, why would he be at the ranch, Craig quoted the visitor
as saying.

Craig said that when he entered the Condon Project he hoped to
find persuasive evidence that space creatures have visited
Earth.

"I was looking for physical evidence," he said. "I was hoping
that it was more than just something in somebody's mind. I would
like to have found a vehicle or some strange alien. But it
didn't turn out that way."







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                             RAWIN Balloon Story

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:48:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:25:52 -0400
Subject: RAWIN Balloon Story


About 6 years ago I was digging through the archives of the NY
State newspapers for the year 1947 regarding the UFO flap to see
if there was any Roswell data.

Sure enough each paper I perused had that famous pic of then
Maj. Jesse Marcel holding the 'wreckage'.

In addition there were many stories of sightings from a wide
array of folks and quite good observations at that.

None were 'men from mars' stories or abductions just craft,
lights, etc.

One thing that caught my eye was the story of a farmer, whose
family I know very well, from Dutchess County NY who reported,
in the local newspaper 'The Poughkeepsie Journal', that he'd
discovered a RAWIN target balloon in the trees of his apple
farm. Not only that but he gave the serial # found on it to the
paper which printed it.

That region was the dairy and apple farming center. What
bothered me was there were only two places they suspected the
balloon could have come from, New Mexico or New Jersey. Yet if
memory serves New Mexico was the leading source. That's
disturbing to me as those were the years of atomic testing and
while I was on staff in editorial at the Poughkeepsie Journal
during the 80's our environmental reporter mentioned the fallout
and other materials that peppered the region during those days
and got into the dairy products.

I might have sent that data to Jan Aldrich, as I recall an email
or two I sent him at the time. Wish I had the article with me!


Best,

Greg







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                    Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:19:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:37:30 -0400
Subject: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


This story is proof positive of the UFO coverup by news sources.

On August 25th 1985 I along with 10 other newsmen were on duty
at the Poughkeepsie Journal, New York's oldest newspaper and one
of the flagships of the Gannett News Service.

It was about 9:35 pm when one of our photogs radioed in that one
of those giant boomerang UFOs, that people had been reporting
for years, was heading south on Route 9.

Mind you, on this day it was during the Dutchess County Fair,
one of the oldest and biggest county fairs in the U.S. Roughly
20,000 people leaving the fair's festivities for home, were
travelling that highway heading south from Rhinebeck, NY about
18 miles north of Poughkeepsie. (Poughkeepsie is about 75 miles
north of NY City).

Our photog stated that the craft was huge and headed south and
it might be visible from our office windows which are on the 3rd
floor. I and two editors dashed to the northern window of the
managing editor's office and sure enough at a distance of
approximately 5 miles we saw a dark shape about 100ft above the
ground with amber and red lights slowly growing bigger as it
headed our way.

It was big, slow moving and in no way was supposed to be flying
over residential areas. Folks up there have shotguns and use em'
at the drop of a hat! Very old republican territory. Folks still
beef about Pearl Harbor like it was yesterday.

On the highway, thousands and thousands of people were so
alarmed they bolted from their cars to gander at this craft.

Of the ten editors/reporters there I believe only 3 were non-ex
military. I stood there and watched as the craft suddenly got
within a couple miles and shut off its lights, aft to fore,
pivoted yo port, traveled east a bit, then, startingly, a hard
starboard turn heading straight for us!

This thing got _huge_ and believe it or not flew right over top
of us at about 40 ft.  It had to be 200ft wide and was jet
black. The illumination of the street lights not reflecting
anything off its surface that we could determine.

Wanting to get a better glimpse of it, we dashed to the other
windows to see if it had passed overhead. Couldn't be seen and
we realized it might be hovering over us. Sure enough that's
what it did!

We dashed to one of the bathrooms facing East and that's when
the craft turned East again and glided over the more heavily
populated section of the city, noiselessly and was gone.

Mind you, tens of thousands saw this as clear as a bell. Veteran
military and veteran news and veteran law enforcement as well.

I immediately thought of Stan Friedman, as he had lectured on
UFOs at Dutchess Community College several years earlier, and we
ran a kind story about it. (Yes Stan, I was leaning over the
city desk making sure it got in _kindly_ :)

Well, we're sitting there screaming at the photogs and reporters
that this will be the story of the century. We had access to AP,
Gannett etc. and USA Today which we mainly put out.

Nope. Word came down from on high that not one word was to be
mentioned. Solid object, hovered, maneuvered seen by tens of
thousands, pictures taken, and no mention anywhere.

Next day some 'menacing' chaps showed up in our editorial
office. I got in trouble for staring back just as menacingly.
That night, at the local watering hole where I would sit and do
sketches after work, another big menacing fellow waltzes in with
a stack of papers and pics 8 inches high. Slams them on the bar
and bellows a threat:

"So! Somebody in here wanted to talk about UFOs?"

He made a big mistake. My high school and college chums were at
the bar that night and we are just as big and menacing. He was
ceremoniously ushered out of the bar by about 3,000 pounds of
very angry citizens.

This was the first time that craft flew over our newspaper but
wasn't the last.

A year later, a _huge_ saucer shaped craft did the same thing.
We all bolted outside this time on the roof of the building and
saw a circle of lights, about a half-mile wide, hovering over a
local monument that rests on a hill that couples go to pitch
woo.

It was there for about 10 minutes and cops, people all saw it.

Then the remarkable part. As I dashed downstairs to get my
trusty telescope from my van to get a closer look, I suddenly
looked straight up and another large boomerang object was
directly overhead!

Three people were in the parking lot at that time with me and we
stared at it and then it kicked in orange afterburners - I
recall six, laterally, on it's aft section - and took off like a
rocket, due-West, at high speed and then did a hard bank to port
that suprised us and must've taken off SW at over 500 mph,
easily. You could _hear_ the afterburners kick in overhead and
this thing at about 100ft high was about 100ft wide.

It wasn't the source of the circular lights, but we suspect the
boomerang shaped-object chased away the circular object.

That's two UFOs in one - at night, close up - again multiple
witnesses.

I've seen these craft about 6 times - and way back, in 1980, a
friend got pics of it. The first time I'd heard of it and we
developed the film at the newspaper ourselves. Nothing unusual
but definitely the boomerang-shape. We figured just another
test aircraft that that region is famous for testing.

Yet again. Mum was the word and there was heck to pay if you
pressed the issue at the evening editor's meeting.


Best,

Greg







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                                TNO 2001 KX76

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:19:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:53:11 -0400
Subject: TNO 2001 KX76


This object was mentioned as one of Sitchin's possible
objects. Look for yourselves:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010830.html

Lots of interesting links from this article to other things
about TNOs, Centaurs, Kupier Belt, Oort Cloud, etc., etc.

One thing on Stichin. One should be able to verify his
astronomy, cosmology, and archaeology elsewhere. So can you?
(That is as gentle as I can be on the subject.)


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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                     Re: BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:38:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:55:11 -0400
Subject: Re: BUFOSC's 6th Conference - Hale


>From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:33:31 +0100
>Subject: BUFOSC's 6th Conference

Eric Morris Wrote:

>Book now or be disappointed as we show THE worlds greatest UFO
>Footage (Forget what you read in the UFO media,BUFOSC have the
>best)

Hi,

Regarding the footage you mention, I found the following link,
that may interest listers here on updates, wittn by Mr Andy
Roberts:

http://www.forteantimes.com/exclusive/cheshireufo.shtml

I am not sure whether there is a dispute between UFO
researchers, regarding this footage (I personally have not seen
it), but one would be prepared to hear the real story of this
footage from Mr Morris. Perhaps a detailed expo on this footage?

Or is this a conference only footage release?


Regards,

Roy








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                                Great Efforts

From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 00:00:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:34:39 -0400
Subject: Great Efforts


Hi List,

We are conscient of the great efforts of Bruce Maccabee, Friedman
& co.

Many pages of FBI-UFO material were briefly discussed in the
past by them and by other authors. Some wrote interesting
books about the FOIA-documents.

There are hundreds of pages full of information about UFOs
(flying discs, Wright P., cylinder-shaped discs etc.) and those
pages will certainly deliver ideas for years and years! So...
many authors will have the possibility to think about all this,
and of course...  it's always refreshing to have new ideas about
all this (why not?).

I was analysing information from a lot of countries (also
Russia, Ukraine, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc.) during
many years... and this year I observed similar points in cases of
those countries and some of the cases described in the FOIA-
documents (to much to explain here on this List...  but I'm also
writing books) Not in English...  but it could be translated
later).

Maybe some authors in China or Japan, Russia, India,Ukraine, etc.
will do the same... and the RESULT will be... more special ideas and
information! Nobody knows everything, and I'm 100 % sure many
authors of the US, Canada etc. will also learn very much from
researchers and authors of the Far East, Ukraine, Russia etc.
The most of them don't know the THOUSANDS of pages full
information or facts about UFOs, written by ZIGEL ( the Russian
dr. Hynek), Prof. Rem Varmalov, Paul Stonehill, Dr. Gennadi
Talalajevsjki, Hobana, and other great ufologists or scientists!
We are living in the center, and speaking different languages ( the
most of us... 3, 4 languages) ... and so we can realise a BRIDGE
between the West and the East,... but I'm sure all this will also
take MANY YEARS.

Many very good books (of UFOLOGY) of Japan, Ukraine, Russia,
etc. need to be translated. The communication between the West and
the East could become much better. In the future the West will discover
more and more secrets in the East and the East will understand more
and more of the secrets of the West. The real exchange of
information about UFO- activity is VERY IMPORTANT!

Now... we are still at the beginning of all this. I'm happy to
listen to the ufologists of the West and to analyse the
information they collected,... but I still have to learn from
the ufologists of the East, and following this way... I'm AMAZED
( more and more ) about the enormous activity of Aliens on this
planet... and not only in the air and on the ground, but also in
the oceans and lakes! What you know about their activity near
Puerto Rico etc.or the oceans, is happening already HUNDREDS of
years in the big lakes in and near Russia, Tsjoekotski, Kola,
East Siberia, etc.

The last years I was very interested in the UFO-activity in
those lakes, fields etc. ( there were also many UFO-crashes ...
.) Some men like A. Dodd for example are already conscient of
this, but even A. Dodd does not know everything what happened in
the ex-Sovjet Union. Many reports of the KGB were stolen, and
other reports are still TOP SECRET! But I could already
understand a lot of things about many cases of Russia, Siberia,
Kola, Tsoekotski etc. I discover and compare... but the most
facts will be delivered in my books ( of course ). Even in the
future the exchange of ideas and facts will c., and Ufology will
become a real science, and will be respected in every important
University. The more popular books and sites will also survive,
but that's the same for every science. We will have all this on
different levels.

Have a nice day!


Thierry Jonnaert
Belgium








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                Re: Copyright On UFO Photographs? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:01:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:45:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Copyright On UFO Photographs? - Maccabee


>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:00:50 +0100
>Subject: Copyright On UFO Photographs?

>In the past,I have received photographs of UFO/unusual phenomena
>from witnesses and I have told them that they maintain full
>control of how their photograph or video footage is presented to
>the media etc.

>As an investigator/enthusiast, I am not clear on this copyright
>protocol and would be grateful if anyone from the List can
>advise me on this issue and would be fascinated to hear of
>anybody who experienced problems in such a situation.


It is my opinion that you are correct: the photographer owns the
rights to any imagery. However, the photographer can relinquish
rights using a signed document.







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               Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:42:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:59:19 -0400
Subject: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents


Source: The Star, South Africa

http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=132&fArticleId=253505

October 6, 2003

Heilbronn, Germany - Ufologists have revealed how they set off
consternation in Germany overnight with a fleet of seven "flying
saucers" that crossed the city of Heilbronn in echelon
formation.

A group that specialises in finding scientific explanations for
unidentified flying objects was conferring in the south-western
city on Saturday and yesterday.

Seven hot-air balloons measuring 1,5 by 1,8m hovered over the
city for 15 minutes. Made of kite paper, they exuded an
"unearthly, orangey-red glow", said Werner Walter, who heads the
national research network on extraordinary celestial phenomena.

"It was like a Hollywood film. People were running outside,
calling one another and discussing it in groups," said Walter.

Thanks to the wind, the UFOs appeared to fly in formation. "They
formed into a giant V, then re-formed in a straight line," said
Walter. "From a distance, you could have sworn they had
intelligent guidance."

The display was intended to show how easy it is to jump to false
conclusions.

"There are things that we can't make sense of when we see them
for the first time. But mostly there is a simple explanation for
them," said Walter, who rubbishes claims of "alien landings".

 - Sapa-DPA








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                     Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:07:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:02:09 -0400
Subject: Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Lehmberg


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:10:27 -0300
>Subject: Re: The Sisyphus Complex

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 03:26:36 EDT
>>Subject: The Sisyphus Complex

>>From the Merriam Webster Dictionary:

>>Main Entry: Sis-y-phus
>>Pronunciation: 'si-s&-f&s
>>Function: noun
>>Etymology: Latin, from Greek Sisyphos:

>>a legendary king of Corinth condemned eternally to repeat the
>>cycle of rolling a heavy rock up a hill in Hades only to have it
>>roll down again as it nears the top

>>Don't know if I've made up a new phrase but it's how I felt
>>sometimes when researching UFOs. Something was always just out
>>of reach or soon as you got to the top, you had to start all
>>over again.

>Thanks Greg,

>This is a word I'll likely use in the future. It's not only the
>research but the threads that are discussed. We exhaust a
>thread, though usually not resolving it-but possibly adding or
>subtracting information- then move on. A few years later a new
>batch of interested subscribers get on the thread [as if it was
>new] and ask the same questions all ready argued and answered
>some years before.

>Sometimes its easier to find a smaller boulder and a hill not so
>great in height.


This is forgetting, of course, the busy imps of CSICOPia
(...Committee for the Silly and Insentient Commitment of
Obdurate Persons!) and their well funded levers and wheel chocks
employed on the -up- hill side of the boulder, against us! But
for them, for the most part, we'd have cleared the hurdle
imposed and be rolling hard for the next hill!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to Lehmberg@snowhill.com)
Splash page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
AlienViewGroup Splash Page: http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Radio Show Archives: Having... ah... *Technical* difficulties...







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                   Proof Of UFO Sighting Caught On Camera

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:59:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:24:39 -0400
Subject: Proof Of UFO Sighting Caught On Camera


Source: Grimsby Telegraph - UK

http://www.thisisgrimsby.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=59380&command=displayConte
nt&sourceNode=58907&contentPK=7303755

Proof Of UFO Sighting Caught On Camera
Rob Burman

12:30 - 06 October 2003
Could little green men soon be arriving down Grimsby's Freeman Street?

Steve Musson (38) and his wife Caron (36) had a close encounter
when they spotted what they believe was a UFO spinning across
the sky near the shopping area. They saw what Steve described as
"a black shiny disc turning over and over in the sky."

The UFO was in the air above their Bodiam Way, Grimsby, home for
several minutes before Steve went inside and grabbed his video
camera.

The footage, which he gave to the Telegraph, shows an intriguing
black object, which comes in and out of view and catches the
light on regular intervals.

It is in view for just over a minute before it completely
disappears. On the film Steve can be heard to say: "It's just
gone. I can't see it."

Speaking after the strange incident, he said: "We were just
sitting in the garden when Caron saw something in the sky.

"She pointed it out to me and we had no idea what it was. It was
very high up and was easily at the same height that planes often
fly at.

"In fact, just after we stopped filming, a plane flew past in
the same location, but it was no way as high as the black disc.

"I'm glad that I was able to run inside and grab my camera.
Otherwise nobody would believe what we had seen.

"We've asked our neighbours but they saw nothing. It was very
hard to spot and Caron was lucky to see it.

"From now on we'll be keeping our eyes on the skies, just in
case we see anything like it again. It was very strange."

The footage has been given to Grimsby para-psychologist Robin
Furman - a national expert on all things weird and wonderful.

He was intrigued by the video and decided that it should be sent
away to a laboratory to be enhanced. He described the results as
"very interesting".

Mr Furman said: "In most cases you find that UFO footage is
either too good that you can see it must be a fake. Or so bad
that you can't make out anything.

"However, this video falls squarely in the middle and raises
some very interesting questions about what it is.

"I can't say for definite that it came from outer space.

"However, I can definitely say that it is unidentified and will
probably remain so for some time."

Have you seen a UFO?

Perhaps you've had an encounter with a spook? If so, call
reporter Rob Burman on (01472) 360360 ext 2183.

rob.burman@grimsbytelegraph.co.uk






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                            Avebury Balloon Hoax

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:46:01 -0400
Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax


Hi All,

This week on UK TV, there is a program showing a UFO hoax, which
has been much discussed here in the UK. A controlled balloon
over Avebury.

I can only say, if the people behind this hoax would spend as
much money time and effort, looking for real answers on this
subject, then perhaps we would be slightly further ahead in the
game of unanswered questions on UFOs.

I cannot stop thinking about why a media company, possibly
given a helping hand by 'UFO Researchers', would really want to
go through the hassle of such a waste of time, hoaxing UFOs? Or
is it just to keep the same old message on track, 'FOs do not
exist', keep feeding the public the same old message, year after
year.

Perhaps there is just too much money floating around in the
media, and it has too get spent on something, looks like the
cleaners idea was well used after all!


Roy







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                   UFO Pandemonium Broke Out 30 Years Ago

From: Sheyllah Salles F. Pires <sheyllah@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:53:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:56:16 -0400
Subject: UFO Pandemonium Broke Out 30 Years Ago


Source: Sun Herald - Gulfport Mississippi

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/local/6935861.htm

Sun, Oct. 05, 2003

PASCAGOULA

Thirty years ago this week, UFO pandemonium broke out.

Folks feared an invasion from outer space. Others thought there
was much ado about nothing. Everybody wanted more information.

From a newsman's view, I have never seen before or since so many
people caught up in such a frenzy. It was over a report by
Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker that a spacecraft had landed
on the banks of the Pascagoula River and taken them onboard
briefly.

"Everybody was seeing UFOs," recalled retired Mississippi Press
Managing Editor Don Broadus.

A Pascagoula city councilman said he saw a luminous UFO the same
night of Hickson's and Parker's report on the way to a church
service in Vancleave.

"That's our story and we're stuck with it," E. P. Sigalas said.

Pascagoula Patrolman Bill Gennaro stopped on Beach Boulevard to
talk with a group of people and they saw an oblong-shaped, blue-
haze object zip to the north.

About 3,000 motorists from Mobile blocked Interstate 10 when
they heard of a possible rendezvous with UFOs at the Mississippi
line.

A cab driver in Biloxi said a UFO caused his taxi to stall out
on U.S. 90.

Ocean Springs aldermen failed to pass a motion to make it
illegal for a UFO to land in the city. Mayor Tom Stennis broke a
2-2 tie, saying, "Let's welcome them."

Then-Sheriff Fred Diamond's view: "Those men saw something. They
underwent a dreadful experience."

UFO enthusiasts and news crews from all over the world called
and many came to Pascagoula to gather more information about the
stunning visit by a spacecraft.

"I estimate that we have received more than 2,000 telephone
calls from news reporters from around the world wanting
information, and from people in the area who wanted to report a
sighting," Diamond said.

It was a media frenzy. Networks and national publications showed
up. The reports got wild and woolly. It was too much for two
shipbuilders who had never been in such demand. They put out a
memo: No more personal interviews. Our attorney, Joe Colingo,
will arrange a news conference next week.

The space encounter was in the news for weeks. Hickson went on
talk shows such as "The Dick Cavett Show." Parker went into
seclusion.

I've followed the UFO account for 30 years and am amazed that
Hickson and Parker have been so consistent with their account of
what happened Oct. 11, 1973. Being a typical newsperson-skeptic,
it's still too much to fathom.

Gary Holland is Jackson County associate editor of The Sun
Herald. He can be reached at 762-0741 and e-mail
garyholland77@aol.com.








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                           Pascagoula Audio Files

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:11:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:01:56 -0400
Subject: Pascagoula Audio Files


http://ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html








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                            The Raelians Revealed

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:28:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:08:20 -0400
Subject: The Raelians Revealed


Hi Everyone!

Tomorrow the 'The Toronto Sun':

http://www.torontosun.com/

will publish an exclusive story by investigative report Brigitte
McCann and photographer Chantel Poirier who secret infiltrated
the Raelians for nearly a year.

Claude Vorilhon, or Rael, is the leader of this supposed
religious and scientific/UFO movement that has its headquarters
in Montreal.

Rael, who says his real father is one of the Elohim (the plural
name for God who is actually an ET according to Rael) and
Brigitte Boisselier made the headlines a year ago when they
claimed to have cloned the first humans.


Nick Balaskas








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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:09:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 09:38:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:31:26 -0400
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:19:25 EDT
>Subject: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>This story is proof positive of the UFO coverup by news sources.

>On August 25th 1985 I along with 10 other newsmen were on duty
>at the Poughkeepsie Journal, New York's oldest newspaper and one
>of the flagships of the Gannett News Service.


This might be proof positive... if you could get the others to
testify to the same thing. As any good reporter knows, a story
has legs if it involves many people who testify to the same
event in a correlated manner.










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                          Math Vs. Moore On Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:24:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 09:57:48 -0400
Subject: Math Vs. Moore On Roswell


Math Vs. Moore On Roswell - Response To Skeptical Enquirer
Article


List,

The following letter is being sent off to the editor of the
Skeptical Inquirer to counter the garbage that Dave Thomas wrote
in their March/April 2003 issue concerning my expose of Charles
Moore's hoaxed Mogul balloon trajectory. I want it here in the
public record in case the Skeptical Inquirer refuses to publish
it or edits the meat out of it.

The Thomas SI article can also be found at Thomas' website:

http://www.nmsr.org/sf-gun.htm

The article can only be characterized as propaganda. He
discussed none of my math arguments proving Moore's malfeasance
that I have at my website:

www.roswellproof.com/flight4_trajectory.html

When I said, here on UpDates last July, that I was drafting a
letter of response, Thomas poked his head in with the following
post:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m18-003.shtml

Note his use of propaganda techniques again. E.g.,

"David Rudiak has disagreements with C. B. Moore over how to
model the Flight #4 trajectory. Some of these disagreements
might even have some merit - say, using the same wind speed for
a given altitude interval on the way up as on the way down.
However, all of these disagreements amount to simply "Well, if I
was modeling this trajectory, I would have used _this_ approach,
and _these_ assumptions."

"However, I can find _no_ justification whatsoever for Rudiak's
persistent accusations of fraud and hoaxing against Dr. Moore"

Heavens! As just one simple example of Moore's bogus math, he
had numbers for his balloon rise/fall rates like 100/12 = 350,
852/2.8 = 100, 9843/7.7 = 800, 662/0.4 = 900. I kid you not!
Check out his table:

http://www.roswellproof.com/Flight4_Table5.html

But Thomas claims he can't find a single bit of evidence for
"fraud or hoaxing." According to the way he tries to spin it,
these are nothing more than "disagreements." Maybe Thomas needs
new batteries in his calculator or a refresher course in grade
school arithmetic.

My response to Thomas on Updates was divided into two long posts:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m30-003.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m30-004.shtml

Thomas never responded. The fact is, it is impossible for him to
refute a single thing I said, and I strongly suspect he knows
it. How can he possibly argue that 100/12 = 350? All the rest
are straight-forward math arguments as well. In multiple
instances, Moore says he's doing one thing, but then does
something else entirely.

I can understand Thomas maybe feeling protective of Moore, but
Moore brought this on himself. Thomas should be a Mensch, stop
playing Moore apologist and PR man, admit he was wrong, and
apologize.

More importantly, Moore needs to come out of hiding and
apologize for what he has done. It's too bad he had to end a
fine scientific career by perpetrating a hoax. And make no
mistake -- that is exactly what he did.

The following letter is also a good concise summary of why
Moore's model is hoaxed and the results he should have gotten if
he hadn't cheated with his numbers and calculations (the balloon
badly misses the Foster Ranch crash site). There is a lot more
on my website (such as Moore altering a Flight #5 Mogul graphic
to possibly deceive people as to how close it actually came to
Roswell base), but space limitations did not permit getting into
them in my letter.

------------------------------------------------

Math vs. Moore on Roswell

To the editor:

In "Bait and Switch on 'Roswell: The Smoking Gun' " (Mar/Apr
2003 Skep. Inq.) Dave Thomas tries to defend Charles Moore's
flawed Mogul balloon trajectory calculation by pretending
Moore's math is correct and that my arguments pointing out
numerous math flaws are nothing more than a personal "attack on
the character of Charles Moore." But it's really about his bad
math and science. That Prof. Moore "didn't want to get into the
math" is really a stunning admission that his math is
indefensible. The fact remains that Moore miscalculated his own
Mogul Flight #4 table to ensure that the balloon would land on
the Foster Ranch near Roswell and supposedly trigger the
"Roswell Incident." His calculation is riddled with literally
dozens of serious errors:

1) Moore's rise and fall rates are calculated wrong in 39 out of
40 cases. A quarter are off by 40% or more. In the most extreme
example, Moore had the balloon rising only 100 feet in 12
minutes, or 8.3 ft/min. But his table lists a rise rate of 350
ft/min, an error factor of over 40! Carrying all wind values
backward (the way Moore calculated his table, what Thomas still
improperly claims is the "right" way) does not help at all - a
completely new set of major math errors is created.

2) Moore violated his own rules in setting up his balloon
trajectory table. Moore stated he was assuming "Flight #4 used
our best equipment," was configured like and "performed as well
as or better than" the successful Flight #5 the next day. But
his table values show that Moore instead treated #4 like a
balloon with faulty altitude control equipment, rising and
falling much faster than #5 (falling almost twice as fast in
fact). Indeed it fell far faster than any of the other early
neoprene balloon Moguls, including the faulty #6 with damaged
equipment. Where did Moore get these excessively high rise/fall
rates so at odds with his stated assumptions and actual balloon
data? Moore's hidden assumptions drastically shorten the time
periods when his hypothetical balloon was rising and falling and
are crucial in keeping it from badly overshooting the Foster
Ranch.

3) Moore's shift-back method of calculation violated his own
stated method in his #4 table footnotes. It is also
mathematically wrong and corrupts his own data. The first data
point is thrown out (where did it go?), his table symmetry for
rise and fall winds is destroyed, his own wind data derived from
Flt. #5 is misused, and another 30 minutes is improperly cut
from the ascent, forcing an early direction change - a second
way Moore drastically shortened the ascent path to prevent
overshoot.

In his article, Thomas carefully avoids discussing a single one
of these critical math _facts_, disingenuously dismissing them
as "quibbles" and "shrill accusations," as a pseudoscientist or
propagandist would. Instead he tries to argue that Moore was
"qualitatively" correct. What he really means is that he (like
Moore) cannot refute the scientific quantitative arguments, the
math, that prove otherwise. Thomas' only math argument is
recreating Moore's faulty table calculation to get Moore's
incorrect trajectory. He reproduces nonsense results like 2 + 2
= 3, claims this vindicates Moore, and then labels me
"incompetent." To see who is right, math-competent readers can
review my Roswell Proof website
(www.roswellproof.com/flight4_trajectory.html), or get Moore's
book and check his math for yourself! Check, e.g., his many
bogus rise/fall rates.

As this response was being drafted, Thomas posted to the group
UFO Updates on July 18, said he reread my website but again
dodged the important math facts, spinning them as mere
"disagreements" over how to model, and again accused me of
"character assassination." His logic seems to be that if a math
student got Moore-type answers like 100/12 = 350 on a test, he
should argue that these weren't really mistakes but
"disagreements" over how to do the problems. Further, the
teacher was a "character assassin" (if not "incompetent") for
marking them wrong. How many teachers would permit that sort of
nonsense?

Moore has also spoken of being more than just "qualitatively"
correct, suggesting his balloon landing site "exactly" matched
the Roswell UFO crash site. In a 1997 Sci Fi Channel special on
Roswell, Moore stated "I have calculated a trajectory that would
have _exactly landed_ the balloon on the Foster Ranch."

But this is _not_ what his model _actually_ predicts. Even
ignoring Moore's rule violations in setting up his table, but
calculating it _correctly_ as-is _per his own table
instructions_, the balloon would still overshoot the ranch by
about 20 miles. Furthermore, _if one now holds Moore to his
stated assumption of perfect flight_ (i.e., normal rise and fall
rates like Flight #5), it misses by more like 70 miles. If one
additionally holds Moore to his 1995 assumption of a normal
post-dawn launch and normal flight time instead of his 1997
night launch and grossly extended flight time (based on Moore
flip-flopping on his interpretation of cloud-cover records), the
miss is about 100 miles. "Quibbles" indeed! Thus Moore's own
model, _properly_ done, actually shows that the winds were
blowing much too hard to have carried Flight #4 to the Foster
Ranch in any _plausible_ scenario.

The results will be the same with any objective scientific
analysis of Moore's book: his many math mistakes will still be
there and his balloon trajectory calculation will remain
completely bogus. Shooting the messenger because Thomas doesn't
like the news won't change this. Since these mistakes are so
numerous and large, it is difficult to believe that a competent
scientist like Moore would make them inadvertently. More likely
he realized his model using the historical wind data could not
get Flight #4 to the Foster Ranch in any reasonable way. Instead
to discredit Roswell with his Mogul balloon, Moore force-fit a
trajectory using made-up numbers and miscalculation until it
finally "exactly landed" at the desired crash site.

The only relevant question here and one which remains unanswered
except by stony silence is: When is Prof. Moore going to issue a
formal retraction and correct the record?

David Rudiak








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   Oct > Oct 7

                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:48:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:00:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:11:09 -0300
>Subject: Pascagoula Audio Files

>http://ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html

Caution: When one goes to that website via the link, the
illustration of an object over the water right at the beginning
of the Pascagoula coverage has not even the slightest
resemblance to what Calvin Parker and Charlie Hickson described!

Charlie drew the object for me, and I discussed with him every
observed aspect of the object in careful detail. To put that
totally misleading illustration with this case is, IMO, highly
irresponsible and misleading.

If anyone wants to hear a recording involving the Hickson case
that is utterly convincing, it is not on that site. It is a
recording made secretly by law enforcement, of Calvin and
Charlie left alone in the interrogation room soon after the
event, without them being informed that a recording was secretly
being made. The two men talk very emotionally about what had
just happened to them, and anyone hearing the inflections of
their voices and what they say would have to be unreasonably
skeptical to say those two were not convinced that they were
abducted by some things (not 'grays') from a UFO.

I have a copy of that audio and it is absolutely convincing to
me and everyone else for whom I've played it.

Also, two things that happened when Hickson was in the Austin
area with me and my project staff were very convincing, too. If
I had to swear my life on the reality of one abduction claim, it
would be the Pascagoula case, and only the Pascagoula case.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:45:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:10:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Maccabee


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:34:37 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:07:50 -0300
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>General cries, admonitions, and protestations (regarding lack of
>evidense) heard during a quarter of the time indicated by Mr.
>Friedman (but that enormous amount of money forfeit just the
>same...) testify to _my_ strong suspicion that evidence is not
>lacking, rather, the abundant evidence available is too blithely
>and complacently dismissed. Verily, the quality anecdotal
>evidence, compounded with the vetted photographic evidence, and
>then added to the extant historical evidence, gives _every_
>indication that a ufological contention regarding that evidence
>_must_ be more real than not... Moreover, framed by the serious
>artistic evidence, qualified by the actualized physical
>evidence, and then compellingly convinced by the conclusively
>personal evidence, I (and perhaps Mr. Friedman et al) can only
>be annoyingly astonished by the continued reluctance of some to
>face the highly strange music that just cannot be _forever_
>marginalized...

>The same invalidated questions, dissembling statements, and
>prevaricating proclamations of noisy negativists year after year
>after year... and always insinuated like they were new and valid
>concerns raised the first time ever... this is the reason we
>have gotten exactly *nowhere* in fifty some-odd years. It's not
>New age spirituality, nor is it the freaky fringe... it's not
>the crystal squeezers, not the non-scientific approaches, and
>not my poetry that keeps us in the dark ages ufologically. These
>have evolved to fill the needless void! No, it's the continued
>allowance of an inability to get over the very first hurdle we
>come to enroute to the future larger reality... whether the
>phenomenon even exists or not!

Whether the phenomenon exists or not......

Yes, the "starting point" battle. Can we get off the starting
gate. I realized long ago that the starting gate argument (are
they real) is where the "rest of the world" is stuck and that is
where scientists have to concentrate their efforts if we are to
ever get the scientifici community interested. What actually
provides the breakthrough will be something so massive as to be
undeniable. Failing that, the continual accumlatoin fo evidence
and witnesses.

Eventually we will pass the "Critical mass" point when
"everyone" is a witness... at which point all it will require is
a young child to stand up and say " Mommy, they are real" and
everyone (scientists included" will say "Yeah, we knew that all
along."

A modern version of the "Emperor's New Clothes Effect."








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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:50:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:38:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:27:05 EDT
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


>Well I sure opened up a can of worms with the original post on
>this thread!

>I must have a dozen or more news services from around the world
>as well as UFO researchers and one debunker who got creamed
>contacting me.

>Well, as I sat here thinking about it I then recalled another UFO
>incident that should be easy for you seasoned researchers to
>track down and confirm.

>It involves photographs from the Chernobyl nuclear accident.

<snip>

>While categorizing the photos to deliver to the various editors
>in their departments I had separated the news wire stories and
>then looked at a series of photos showing the exterior of the
>Chernobyl plant and there as plain as day, in the foreground and
>CLOSE UP was a saucer shaped object hovering in front of the
>tower. I thought it was a practical joke by one of the guys in
>the office but that'd be tough to do and hell to pay. The series
>of photos had about 4 in the sequence which suprised me because
>it was an 'approach' from upper left to the center and very
>excellent close ups. The captions on the pics didn't mention
>this! I didn't see any wires or support structure and dismissed
>it off as some kind of soviet mech- -anism used for rescue or
>something but I was rivited as having studied animation I made a
>'flipbook' of the photos and got quite the start! I would have
>tossed it out the window but then one of the senior editors was
>then standing nearby with this look on his face like " Give em'
>up! " and orders are orders and I gave him the pile and that was
>that. Except what they forgot was AP often sent duplicates and
>sometimes triplicates of photos and as a rule I would file these
>in our art bank and yes I had multiples of these photos.

>If anyone has seen these it would be great to know what it was.
>They've got to be archived somewhere perhaps AP's data base.

>The object was just a saucer shaped thing shadow on the bottom
>shadow cast on the building. No windows, bubbles etc.

I presume you are aware that during the Westchester County NY
sighting flap in 1985 (+/- a year) a large UFO hovered over the
Indian River power plant so low that the guy running the
security camera had to rotate it all the way from one stop to
the other (like 180 degrees) to see from one side of the object
to the other. Also, you mention corrections officers (in the
portion I snipped). I am aware that there are numerous stories
by police who might come forward if they knew that they are "not
alone" in seeing these strange objects.








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                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:55:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:23:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:48:04 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

<snip>

>I haven't listened to it for a while, but I believe that the
>audio clip you reference is on my web page at:

>http://www.konsulting.com/audio_clips.htm

>It was provided by Wendy Connors a while back and is one of
>several clips that I have related to this case (along with many
>others). I would warn that some of these clips are huge, and
>will take a while to download.

Hi Steve,

Yes, that is the recording to which I referred, and I hope
others will take the opportunity to listen to it - especially
if they doubt the Parker-Hickson case and don't mind having
their skepticism shaken.

I want to comment on what seems to be a legal error on the
website: It states, concerning the Parker-Hickson recording, "It
is copyrighted by Wendy Connors and William Jones with all
rights reserved."

IMO, that statement cannot be accurate. The recording was made
by the sheriff's department and contains the voices of Parker
and Hickson. As such, neither Wendy Connors or William Jones
could legitimately own copyright to it, per se. They could
certainly own the right to a presentation they might have
produced containing that recording, but not to that recording,
per se. As I recall things, Hickson's lawyer managed to get the
tape from the sheriff's department, but I would question the
right of the lawyer or even Hickson to have sold any rights to
anyone, because of the origin of the tape. Certainly, the
sheriff's department would have no right to sell any such
rights. The tape had been played publicly and given out to
several persons (me included) long before anyone was claiming
they own the copyright. As such, I strongly suspect it is in
public domain.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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   Oct > Oct 7

                     Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:26:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:18:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Velez


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:23:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:48:04 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

>I haven't listened to it for a while, but I believe that the audio
>clip you refernce is on my web page at:

>http://www.konsulting.com/audio_clips.htm

>It was provided by Wendy Connors a while back and is one of
>several clips that I have related to this case (along with many
>others). I would warn that some of these clips are huge, and
>will take a while to download.


Hi Steve,

Or... it would be nice if people would support Wendy Conner's
invaluable work by ordering a copy of the CD of the Hickson/
Pascagoula abduction case material directly from her. You can
write to Wendy at:

FadedDiscs@comcast.net

Support a valuable archive of UFO related history. Wendy plays
the material for free every time she appears on SDI. We need to
support her work so she can continue to share it with the world
via Strange Days... Indeed and her own 'Faded Discs' website.

Regards,

John Velez







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   Oct > Oct 7

             Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:12:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:33:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:42:21 -0300
>Subject: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

>A group that specialises in finding scientific explanations
>for unidentified flying objects

>city for 15 minutes. Made of kite paper, they exuded an
>"unearthly, orangey-red glow", said Werner Walter, who heads
>the national research network on extraordinary celestial
>phenomena."

Dear List,

This is just to let you know that these statements above, quoted
from the article of this South African Newspaper, are simply not
true.

Mr. Walter is not a scientist. He's run, for many years, a one
man show of debunking any phenomena which are related to UFO
sightings. Many of us here think that he does this to compensate
something that may lay deep within his own psyche. He is an out-
 spoken fan of Phil Klass. Whenever you start a discussion with
him that is controversial he very soon starts to loose manners.
Most of his research is done at home on his telephone, computer
and fax machine. He has a few, like-minded, volunteers in some
parts of Germany. Media here here love this man because whenever
something strange happens, he is phoned and then he gives
statements to explain away everything and afterwards the world
is back in order. :-)

He is anything but 'the head of the national research
network..." because it simply doesn't exist in Old Germany.

No one here in Berlin, the capital of Germany, has heard of such
a sighting event and I find it funny to read about it on this
List.

But - the Sun is shining for Mr. Walter as well - and he is part
of the Universe, too.


All the best,

Joachim Koch


More Info: http://www.kochkyborg.de








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   Oct > Oct 7

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:34:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:50:39 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:46:12 +0100
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:59:05 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>One thing that caught my eye was the story of a farmer, whose
>>>family I know very well, from Dutchess County NY who reported,
>>>in the local newspaper 'The Poughkeepsie Journal', that he'd
>>>discovered a RAWIN target balloon in the trees of his apple
>>>farm. Not only that but he gave the serial # found on it to the
>>>paper which printed it.


>David, Greg and List,

>In research my Canadian friend and colleague Andrew Lavoie has
>done regarding the ML307 and it's variants we have discovered
>that far from the impression given in many reports of the time
>that the ML307 was some strange and rare device, it was both
>widely used and known about from it's inception into service in
>1944 as the "/A" model closely followed by the "/B" model a few
>months later the same year. They were referred to by model
>reference and photograph in Basic Radar training manuals found
>from the period as _the_ standard pilot balloon radar reflector
>and were categorised as a "standard" Army stores stock item.
>Hence it must have been easy to draw a pack of them out of FWAAF
>stores to show the press at the demonstration given and
>photographed there on the 9th July. One has to ask the question
>though, why didn't Ramey do this on the afternoon/evening of the
>8th July when the other FW photographs were taken? and why did
>he state to the press earlier on the afternoon of the 8th that
>the debris though looking similar to balloon/target debris had
>_not_ been identified as such by any of his men on the base.
>(quote to Reuters News Service)

The quote came filtered through one of his intelligence
officers, Major Kirton. There are other quotes coming directly
from Ramey or attributed to Ramey where he states that it looked
like a radar target and balloon to him. For a summary of these
news stories with quotes see:

http://www.roswellproof.com/RoswellSummary6.html

A complete list of stories is at:

http://www.roswellproof.com/press_coverage.html

Note for example the headline of the Los Angeles Herald-Express
the evening of July 8: "General Believes It Is Radar Weather
Target." Also be sure to check out the San Francisco News story
from that evening as well (UP based story) quoting Ramey as
saying it looked like a radar target and balloon. Finally, check
out the San Francisco Examiner story from the next day. Ramey
was interviewed directly, and quoted as saying _before_ the
official ID by weather officer Newton that he thought it a radar
target.

>He could after all have just got
>someone to draw a pack out of stores or borrow one from the unit
>shown using the targets the next day, and compared the two on
>the floor of his office. So why didn't he?,

Why not just grab one from the unit stores (or whereever), bust
it up, and then display it as the wrecked object found near
Roswell? A pristine radar target present next to a busted up one
in a photo shoot may have been a little too obvious or cute.

>the Newton
>Photograph going with Newton's identification quotes would have
>been an ideal opportunity to show an ML307 side by side with the
>debris.

Totally unnecessary. You have a general telling the media that
he thinks it is probably a radar target but he'll bring in a
weather officer to make sure. Then Ramey has photos taken. Then
the weather officer officially ID's it. Nothing more would be
needed. Why wouldn't the press buy the story as-is?

>Why didn't Ramey or his PIO grab _this_ opportunity to
>knock the Roswell Disc story on the head by showing what the
>debris "really" was, there and then?.

Because they had already knocked it on its head by declaring it
a weather balloon radar target, showing very unimpressive debris
lying on the floor, and having a weather official officially ID
it.

>Why wait until the next
>day when the debris had (or had not) been shipped off to Wright
>Field?.

The follow-up radar target demonstrations primary purpose seemed
to be to debunk the nationwide epidemic of flying saucer
reports, with debunking Roswell being secondary. Most of the
demonstrations never mentioned Roswell. The Alamogordo and Fort
Worth demonstrations were exceptions.

>The answer appears to be quite simple, the debris in Ramey's
>office is _not_ an ML307, or more accurately, if we are expected
>to believe it is an ML307,

Sorry Neil, but it is an ML-307. I'm sorry to have to go through
this again.

>then it's an ML307 that is not built
>to the Army Signal Corp engineering specifications. The most
>obvious point being those lovely "white" edges to the foil
>panels. If you build a model ML307 _correctly_ to the Army
>specifications you will find that these "white" edges _do_ _not_
>appear in your model. If they do, then you are _not_ following
>the construction methods laid down in the engineering drawings
>correctly.

This is false. The white edges were very much a part of the
specified ML-307 construction if you read the confusing
schematic correctly. The white strip is simply the white
paper/foil backing folded over along an edge to form a frame-
work stick sheath or reinforcement edge. > >Further if you check
the "real" ML307's of the period, like >those photographed at
FWAAF on the 9th of July you will also >find these "white" edges
_cannot_ be found on the real ML307's >shown, we've looked hard
to find them on the original negs, >they're not there. Those
ML307's _were_ built correctly to the >specifications.

I have photos clearly showing the white edges on an early Rawin,
such as the ones I show at the bottom of my page on Rawin
construction showing a Rawin from 4 different angles.

http://www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html

See, white strips? (These photos are screen captures a movie of
a radar target demonstration, probably from 1947, which you can
download at http://www.roswellproof.com/balloondemos.html. Go to
the very bottom of the page.)

Attachment 26 in the AF Roswell Report showing preparation for a
Mogul launch also shows a white strip or two in the radar
targets on the ground. See:

http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/history/roswell/report/p292.html

The middle radar target clearly shows the white strip on foil at
the top even in this lower-resolution reproduction.

Whether one sees the white strips or not depends on the lighting
and the angle at which the ML307 is viewed. Not all the edges
had the white strips, with the foil/paper being folded the other
way.

>We can now see why Ramey appeared confused in identifying the
>debris saying it "looked" like balloon/target debris because it
>did!

It was a balloon/target. And believe me, Ramey wasn't the least
bit confused about what he had displayed. The fix was in from
the beginning.

>, yet when it came to checking the fine details this theory
>falls apart and so, as he told Reuters, no one at the base could
>identify the debris as that of an Army type balloon/target.

What Kirton told Reuters, not Ramey, and probably very early on
in the balloon story. Ramey was generally saying he thought it a
radar target (though at other times the stories reported him
just given a generic description of the debris). E.g., the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram on July 9 stated, "As soon as the 'disk' was
brought into General Ramey's office, he and Colonel Dubose
tabbed it as a weather device. The weather officer on duty at
the time, Warrant Officer Newton, merely made identification
positive." Or in another addition: "After his first look, Ramey
declared all it was a weather balloon. The weather officer
verified his view."

To compare Kirton quotes (with Kirton telling different stories
perhaps at different times or depending on whom he spoke to):

http://www.roswellproof.com/Reuters_TheHindu_Madras_July10.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/Reuters_Canada_July10.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/DallasMorningNews_July9.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/FBI_Telegram.html

(Kirton was the FBI contact person.)

For stories about Ramey being fairly definite about it being a
radar target:

http://www.roswellproof.com/LA_HeraldExpress_July8.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/SFExaminer_July9.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/UP_SFNews_July8.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/FortWorthST_July9.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/AP3_Main_July9.html

You have to understand that the press was being told all sorts
of sometimes contradictory and inconsistent things. (E.g., even
the original Roswell base press release was reported differently
by AP, UP, and the Roswell Daily Record.) Further, the story
being told was 7rapidly changing. I think it is questionable at
best to base a theory of what Ramey knew or don't know or what
was or was not in Ramey's office going on only one Reuters'
story quoting a second-hand source while ignoring all the other
stories that contradict it, including those that quote Ramey
directly.

>In the end though the flawed balloon theory was still close
>enough on the face of it to make a good cover story, and people
>would see in the debris what they were told it was. So he ran
>with it, and as a cover story it's worked just fine for the last
>50+ years.

The debris in the photos is an ML-307 radar target. I had a very
frustrating series of e-mail debates with Andrew LeVoie and Ed
Gehrman about this last March with the same erroneous arguments
about how it couldn't be an ML-307 radar target because of the
white strips. I kept saying to look more carefully at the
engineering schematic (which clearly shows that some of the
edges had white strips) and especially look at the photos of
other ML-307's sporting those supposedly nonexistent white
strips (again, see my links above).

I am sorry to say that you guys keep beating a dead horse
because you are refusing to face facts.


David Rudiak








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                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:27:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:17:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hatch


>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:51:08 +0100
>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38

>Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com>
>==========================
> UFO ROUNDUP
>Volume 8, Number 38 October 8, 2003
>Editor: Joseph Trainor

<snip>

>MYSTERIOUS BLACKOUT SENDS ITALY REELING


>From the UFO Files...

>1964: STRANGE ARTIFACT ON THE OCEAN FLOOR

> "The American ship Eltanin, owned by the Military Sea
>Transportation Service, was designed for use in the
>National Science Foundation Antarctic research program."

>"On August 29, 1964, the Eltanin was a thousand miles
>west of Cape Horn," and just north of Antarctica, "and its
>crew was busily engaged in photographing the ocean floor,
>which reaches a depth of 13,500 feet (3,105 meters) in
>that area. A specially designed camera, housed in a metal
>cylinder, was being pulled along by a cable."

> "Later that day, when darkroom technicians developed
>the exposed film, they found that the camera had captured
>an image of a strange device jutting out of the mud of the
>ocean. A central mast supported four series of cross
>rods, which made the object appear to be something like a
>cross between a television antenna and a telemetry
>antenna. The cross rods were spaced at ninety-degree
>angles and showed white knobs on their extremities. The
>mysterious object appeared to be man-made and seemed
>definitely out of place in the anticipated natural
>environment of the ocean floor."

> "The specially constructed underwater camera had been
>designed to bounce along the seabed and to take pictures
>at regular intervals. It was only a fortunate, albeit
>engimatic, accident that the unidentifiable object had
>been photographed."
> "When the Eltanin docked at Auckland, New Zealand on
>December 4, 1964, a reporter questioned Dr. Thomas
>Hopkins, senior marine biologist on board, about the 8 X
>10 prints of the underwater anomaly. Dr. Hopkins was
>quoted as saying that the device could hardly be a plant,
>for at that depth, there is no light. Without light there
>is no process of photosynthesis and plants cannot live.
>Dr. Hopkins was reluctant about declaring the object to be
>man-made. He estimated the device to be about two feet
>(0.6 meters) high and specified its point of discovery as
>being on the 45,000-mile (72,000-kilometer) fault-line
>rift that encircles the earth."

> "'If it is some strange coral formation,' Dr. Hopkins
>said, 'then no one on board has ever heard of it before.
>I wouldn't like to say that the thing is man-made, because
>this brings up the problem of how one would get it
>there.'"

>The possibility that the Eltanin's mystery undersea
>antenna might be an alien probe from outer space occurred
>to only a few people. One of them was Hollywood producer
>Irwin Allen, who worked the Eltanin mystery into an
>episode of his TV series Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
>about a year later. (See the book Atlantis Rising by Brad
>Steiger, Dell Publishing Co., Inc., 1973, pages 97 and 98.)


Hello all: That Eltanin account sounded familiar.

Checking the database, I found the same account, but from this
very odd book: /r212 CATHIE, Bruce: HARMONIC 33 A.&A. Reed,
Wellington, NZ on page 32 (book borrowed long ago from Jim
McCampbell and returned.)

What this account, Cathie, Steiger and others all pass over is
the possibility of a ships mast with projecting spars. No
mystery with the 90-degree angles, no need for strange coral
formations.

What is so unobvious about a whaling ship, long sunken into the
muck, with its mast still sticking up? Whalers go back 200 years
or so. They were all over the Antarctic seas. The possibility of
an alien probe found its way into two books, a newsletter and
who knows where else, but nobody mentions a sunken ship.

Is there some reason for this?

The spot I had chosen years back is shown near the bottom
of this map:

http://www.larryhatch.net/EMPTYQ.html

I might have to move it a bit, if I don't delete it.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                  'Magnificent Obsessions' Air-Date Changed

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:12:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:23:08 -0400
Subject: 'Magnificent Obsessions' Air-Date Changed


Hi List,

Summit Films were in touch with Chris Rutkowski and I today
- the air-date for the UFO Researcher episode of Magnificent
Obsessions that Chris and I are in, has changed. It will now air
on the Canadian Life Network on November 8th, 2003.

The change is due to a national press release which is going out
very soon.

Also, Atlantis Rising Radio with Hilly Rose will be interviewing
me tomorrow for an upcoming show.

Take care,

Brian
HBCC UFO Research







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                       Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:08:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:33:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Pope


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
>Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax


>This week on UK TV, there is a program showing a UFO hoax, which
>has been much discussed here in the UK. A controlled balloon
>over Avebury.

>I can only say, if the people behind this hoax would spend as
>much money time and effort, looking for real answers on this
>subject, then perhaps we would be slightly further ahead in the
>game of unanswered questions on UFOs.

>I cannot stop thinking about why a media company, possibly
>given a helping hand by 'UFO Researchers', would really want to
>go through the hassle of such a waste of time, hoaxing UFOs? Or
>is it just to keep the same old message on track, 'FOs do not
>exist', keep feeding the public the same old message, year after
>year.

>Perhaps there is just too much money floating around in the
>media, and it has too get spent on something, looks like the
>cleaners idea was well used after all!

Roy and List,

By way of background, you may wish to be aware that Chrysalis
Television originally planned to make two separate UFO-related
documentaries. One was provisionally entitled "The Believers",
and was to have looked at the UFO phenomenon generally, with the
focus on public opinion about UFOs, witness testimony, the
psychology of belief within ufology, and possible explanations
of UFO sightings. I believe that the second documentary had
provisionally been entitled "How to Build a Flying Saucer".

Channel 4 wouldn't buy two programmes, so they got merged, but
with the emphasis very much on the second concept. As you may
have seen, the people commissioned to design, build and fly the
model UFO were not ufologists, but model makers involved in the
film industry, and experts in flying radio-controlled aircraft.
It's not the case that UFO researchers, sceptics or debunkers
had a hand in any of this.

I appeared in the programme, but had given a wide-ranging
interview about the MOD's UFO project, and the MOD's dealings
with ufologists. This was to have been used in "The Believers",
and I should make it clear that I had no involvement in setting
up the hoax that lay at the heart of tonight's programme.

Professor Chris French from the Psychology Department,
Goldsmiths College, University of London, also appeared in the
programme. He's in the same position as me, in that he too
played no part in planning this hoax, and didn't know it had
taken place until after the event.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:13:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:39:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:50:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>I presume you are aware that during the Westchester County NY
>sighting flap in 1985 (+/- a year) a large UFO hovered over the
>Indian River power plant so low that the guy running the
>security camera had to rotate it all the way from one stop to
>the other (like 180 degrees) to see from one side of the object
>to the other. Also, you mention corrections officers (in the
>portion I snipped). I am aware that there are numerous stories
>by police who might come forward if they knew that they are "not
>alone" in seeing these strange objects.


Yes! Dr., you're right on target there! I recall hearing and
reading about incident and several others as folks would bend an
ear at the local barbershops and watering holes.

To tell you the truth, I was the _last_ person who ended up
seeing these things. For _years_ people in the streets and
country would chew my ear off about it including my older
sibling who you couldn't pay to buy into a UFO story. I would
sit there year after year hearing these stories from rank and
file to professors, cops, military and didn't take it seriously
_until_ I couldn't avoid it.

That's when I had to see things from the other guy's viewpoint.
Let me tell you, one night a cousin of mine, a Marine who wasn't
scared of kin nor countryman was over for a visit and was shaken
up badly. We were sitting in my living room where I had two
large windows facing East. I asked him what was eating him and
he said he had been out with the boys having a brew or two and
saw a UFO. I asked him what it looked like and he said he was
scared to say so because it might follow him. Needless to say he
got the raised eyebrow and offball glance and I needled him to
speak more. He did and in mid-story his eyes bulged, looked
straight out the window and sure as heck that damned boomerang
shaped thing comes toward us slow moving and we both broke camp!

We headed outside and it just soared over us heading S SW
and that was that.

In my case I wasn't looking for UFOs. I had dismissed them
because I figured they were secret aircraft and still do 'til
some solid, hands-on proof surfaces. Yet what I've learned from
all this is that not to dismiss something because it's of no
interest. When the stories come from a wide array of people whom
are sound persons, store that data and apply where applicable.

There're gosh knows how many UFO stories from the Hudson Valley.
Problem is there's no safe harbor for people who've seen them to
report to without fear of invalidation or repercussion. That
would best be done by the institutions that use the Constitution
to stand on to do so by providing a means where the data can be
collected and examined by objective professionals. Maybe now
that I've spoken out and have handled my share of 'debunkers'
the past few days (and remarkably so, as I've got many an
apology!), we can slowly put together a forum for the folks in
that region to discuss the issue.


Best,

Greg







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                         Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:22:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:30:44 -0400
Subject: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting?


Found a bit of data about UFOs on a website. Nice info that
suggests saucers and boomerang craft had been seen prior to '47.
One snippet had mention that then Maj. Jesse Marcel had his own
close encounter and am wondering if this is true?

http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/V-Formations.htm


Best,

Greg








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                         Technology Madness And Hope

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:11:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:11:15 -0400
Subject: Technology Madness And Hope




Source: The Globe & Mail - Toronto

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031007.gtkapicoct7/BNStory/Tec
hnology/?query=UFO

Tuesday, Oct. 7, 2003

Technology Madness And Hope

By Jack Kapica
Globe and Mail Update

John Robert Colombo, one of our most valued writers and a
prodigious collector of fascinating information, once boasted to
me that his 1989 book Mysterious Canada contained the only
picture in existence of an unidentified flying object that was
in focus.

It was indeed in focus. But it wasn't a real UFO, just something
that had once been taken for one.

Mr. Colombo lumped the supernatural (ghosts, apparitions and
other spooky phenomena) with UFOs in Mysterious Canada, despite
the fact that there is little that spirits and aliens have in
common, with one exception: our desire to find them.

Other writers have bemoaned Canada's dour rejection of such
things as silly superstition. Poet Earle Birney once said that
"it's by our lack of ghosts we're haunted." And novelist
Robertson Davies added that "Canada needs ghosts, as a dietary
supplement, a vitamin taken to stave off that most dreadful of
modern ailments, the Rational Rickets."

Equally with ghosts, we need aliens too. At the bottom of all
UFO study is a presupposition that by definition, alien
technology will be superior to our own, and if we handle an
alien visitation correctly, we may benefit from their advanced
knowledge.

The interest in UFOs is continuing, and I don't know what that
says about the technological advances we have made over the past
25 years or so. Ufology has survived the arrival eight-track
stereo, cellphones, karaoke machines, Pong and digital watches.
In fact, it continues to flourish, which suggests that the
current digital revolution is not satisfying some deeper need
within us.

And so it's a relief to note that ufologists will congregate
this weekend, Oct. 11 and 12, at the Halifax International UFO
Symposium, when some of the world's best-known UFO researchers
will speak at Alderney Landing in Dartmouth, N.S.

Panelists will discuss, among other things, triangle sightings,
reality transformations, new abduction insights, cover-ups and
crash scenarios. Mike MacDonald, a producer with Roadhouse Films
Inc., will record the proceedings as part of an upcoming two-
hour feature documentary called Northern Lights: Canada's UFO
Xfiles being produced for Space: The Imagination Station and to
air in March, 2004.

"My plan is to show Canada just how seriously people do take the
UFO phenomenon," Mr. MacDonald said.

Ufologists generally reside on the furthest fringes of society,
and are often given less credibility than believers in ghosts or
religious apparitions.

But if they should be so lucky as to get their hands on a
genuine alien craft, I can't even begin to imagine what kind of
technology we could get out of it. One thing is for sure: Not
even Microsoft will be safe.

Yes, I admit there was a time I thought ufologists were quaintly
and harmlessly mad, delusional romantics whose sights were set
on a horizon no one else could see. But they no longer inhabit
my pantheon of madness. A group infected by what Robertson
Davies so aptly called the Rational Rickets has taken their
place: the music recording industry.

This group is proving that new technology can sometimes be too
alien for people to handle.

It was bad enough when the Recording Industry Association of
America, which is trying to sue its market into submission to
stop the trade in copyright music, exacted a $2,000 settlement
from a 12-year-old New York African-American girl living in
subsidized housing with her single mom. But now the Society of
Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada (SOCAN), the
Canadian copyright collective for the public performance of
musical works, is going after dentists, of all people.

In late September, SOCAN said that dentists who play music CDs
for their patients in their offices are guilty of theft, and
should be forced to buy licences.

There's a lesson to be learned here, one that the ufologists
probably understand better than anyone else.

An invasion of "alien technology" has already happened. It's
called Napster, Kazaa and other weird names (probably related to
Klaatu). And how is the recording industry reacting to this
arrival? With lawyers waving writs, suing kids and demanding
tough laws.

If that's the way the world greets new technology, we're all in
trouble.

I, for one, wish Halifax's ufologists the best of luck. We need
a First Contact, and we need it now. The aliens and those who
believe in them may bring us sanity along with new technology.








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             Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:43:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:19:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents



>From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>)
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:12:23 +0100
>Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:42:21 -0300
>>Subject: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

>>A group that specialises in finding scientific explanations
>>for unidentified flying objects

>>city for 15 minutes. Made of kite paper, they exuded an
>>"unearthly, orangey-red glow", said Werner Walter, who heads
>>the national research network on extraordinary celestial
>>phenomena."

>This is just to let you know that these statements above, quoted
>from the article of this South African Newspaper, are simply not
>true.

>Mr. Walter is not a scientist. He's run, for many years, a one
>man show of debunking any phenomena which are related to UFO
>sightings.

<snip>

>He is anything but 'the head of the national research
>network..." because it simply doesn't exist in Old Germany.

>No one here in Berlin, the capital of Germany, has heard of such
>a sighting event and I find it funny to read about it on this
>List.

All that makes sense, Joachim. It would be extremely improbable
to find a multiple-number of balloons aligned first in one
formation and then realigned into another regular formation.
Turbulence and dispersion just doesn't work that way.


Jim Deardorff








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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:23:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:27:05 EDT
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Well I sure opened up a can of worms with the original post on
>this thread!

>I must have a dozen or more news services from around the world
>as well as UFO researchers and one debunker who got creamed
>contacting me.

Well I hope I'm not inviting a "creaming" here when I point out
that this Giant Triangle Multiple-Witness story seems to be
another one of those multiple witness stories where we only ever
seem to hear from one witness. We are told that:

>I've tried on numerous occasions to get the other staff members
>to recall the incidents but they're all scared stiff.

How strange, especially as nothing dramatic seems to have
happened to Mr Boone.

>Somebody got to them but didn't get to me. I'm a stubborn cuss
>who in those days when I was in my early 20's would fight at the
>drop of a hat! Didn't matter how many to fight, just the more
>the merrier! I was raised by a long line of two-fisted Marines
>and military and backing down from anything was sort of like
>Klingon dishonor.

Obviously we need more two-fisted ufologists - or Klingons.

It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
further information, Jerry?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:16:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

<snip>

Ray,

The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs








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                 Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:46:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:00:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford


Ray,

In a way you're correct. The reel to reel recording of the
sheriffs department tape is in the public domain. However, that
recording was digitied, enhanced, restored and remastered by me
and is significantly changed from its original format. I
certainly do hold the copyright on the restored version along
with Bill Jones.

Before you begin to think I make money doing restoration work on
ufological recordings, you'd be way off base. Like John Velez
mentioned, I give so much away free, I make Bill Gates look like
Silas Marner.

Support my work or not. I'll still be putting in the effort to
preserve the recordings for future generations whether I make a
buck or not. Damn near everything I've brought to the field (and
it's a massive amount...I kid you not) has been given and shared
freely to the field of Ufology.


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs






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   Oct > Oct 8

                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:16:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

<snip>

Ray,

The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs








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   Oct > Oct 8

                      Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:34:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
>Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>This week on UK TV, there is a program showing a UFO hoax, which
>has been much discussed here in the UK. A controlled balloon
>over Avebury.

>I can only say, if the people behind this hoax would spend as
>much money time and effort, looking for real answers on this
>subject, then perhaps we would be slightly further ahead in the
>game of unanswered questions on UFOs.

>I cannot stop thinking about why a media company, possibly
>given a helping hand by 'UFO Researchers', would really want to
>go through the hassle of such a waste of time, hoaxing UFOs? Or
>is it just to keep the same old message on track, 'FOs do not
>exist', keep feeding the public the same old message, year after
>year.

>Perhaps there is just too much money floating around in the
>media, and it has too get spent on something, looks like the
>cleaners idea was well used after all!



Good Morning All,

I watched the program last night with great enthusiasm. <g>

Roy,

I do not think the program was a waste of time at all. I think
the money was well spent, albeit it could have been better
spent.

The reason that I say that the money was well spent is for two
main reasons.

1) The program people knew _exactly_ what the object looked
like.

The people observing the UFO did not and their descriptions
varied. This is _brilliant_ because it proves what us Ufologists
have being saying for ages that peoples perceptions differ and
shall report seeing slightly different things, a note confirmed
by Nick Pope on the show.

So this immediately confirms that debunkers are speaking with
falsehood when they say that witnesses should all report seeing
exactly the same object if indeed that is what multiple
witnesses observed. Follow my drift?

To be truthful it also looked different in the various shots
that they showed of the object, due to lighting differences.

2) Research into how the public & media react. The program
showed clearly enough the various ways the public and media
reacted to the hoax, including news snippets. In my opinion they
did not go into enough detail on this point, but they made their
point that the reactions where pretty much what they expected.

So given that a hoax generates this kind of reaction, what does
a genuine (albeit this was _technically_ a genuine UFO at the
time) UFO would generate. The fact that a clear cut sighting,
with multiple witnesses and camera footage only made the
"giggle" & "and finally" portion of the news programs proves
that the subject is still not being taken as seriously as it
should.


On an aside note, a stereo typical UFO moving slowly was exactly
the sort of UFO people expect to see, so in a way there was less
scepticism.

On another aside note, it also proved that _some_ UFO's are not
UFO's but deliberate attempts to fool the observer, and I don't
necessarily mean deliberate hoax's either.

Regards

Sean
--

   In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
              http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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   Oct > Oct 8

                      Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:34:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
>Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>This week on UK TV, there is a program showing a UFO hoax, which
>has been much discussed here in the UK. A controlled balloon
>over Avebury.

>I can only say, if the people behind this hoax would spend as
>much money time and effort, looking for real answers on this
>subject, then perhaps we would be slightly further ahead in the
>game of unanswered questions on UFOs.

>I cannot stop thinking about why a media company, possibly
>given a helping hand by 'UFO Researchers', would really want to
>go through the hassle of such a waste of time, hoaxing UFOs? Or
>is it just to keep the same old message on track, 'FOs do not
>exist', keep feeding the public the same old message, year after
>year.

>Perhaps there is just too much money floating around in the
>media, and it has too get spent on something, looks like the
>cleaners idea was well used after all!



Good Morning All,

I watched the program last night with great enthusiasm. <g>

Roy,

I do not think the program was a waste of time at all. I think
the money was well spent, albeit it could have been better
spent.

The reason that I say that the money was well spent is for two
main reasons.

1) The program people knew _exactly_ what the object looked
like.

The people observing the UFO did not and their descriptions
varied. This is _brilliant_ because it proves what us Ufologists
have being saying for ages that peoples perceptions differ and
shall report seeing slightly different things, a note confirmed
by Nick Pope on the show.

So this immediately confirms that debunkers are speaking with
falsehood when they say that witnesses should all report seeing
exactly the same object if indeed that is what multiple
witnesses observed. Follow my drift?

To be truthful it also looked different in the various shots
that they showed of the object, due to lighting differences.

2) Research into how the public & media react. The program
showed clearly enough the various ways the public and media
reacted to the hoax, including news snippets. In my opinion they
did not go into enough detail on this point, but they made their
point that the reactions where pretty much what they expected.

So given that a hoax generates this kind of reaction, what does
a genuine (albeit this was _technically_ a genuine UFO at the
time) UFO would generate. The fact that a clear cut sighting,
with multiple witnesses and camera footage only made the
"giggle" & "and finally" portion of the news programs proves
that the subject is still not being taken as seriously as it
should.


On an aside note, a stereo typical UFO moving slowly was exactly
the sort of UFO people expect to see, so in a way there was less
scepticism.

On another aside note, it also proved that _some_ UFO's are not
UFO's but deliberate attempts to fool the observer, and I don't
necessarily mean deliberate hoax's either.

Regards

Sean
--

   In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
              http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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   Oct > Oct 8

                          Secrecy News -- 10/08/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:32:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:26:51 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/08/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 86
October 8, 2003


**      PENTAGON DIRECTIVES REMOVED FROM PUBLIC ACCESS
**      WHY IS THE COST OF THE IRAQI WMD SEARCH CLASSIFIED?
**      WHITE HOUSE LEAK INVESTIGATION PROCEEDS
**      DECLASSIFIED DOCS ON THE 1973 ARAB-ISRAEL WAR
**      ANTI-TERRORISM INTELLIGENCE TOOLS IMPROVEMENT ACT
**      INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE IN SERBIA


PENTAGON DIRECTIVES REMOVED FROM PUBLIC ACCESS

In a new retreat from public oversight, the Department of
Defense has blocked public access to the online database of DoD
directives maintained by the Defense Technical Information
Center.

These unclassified DoD directives, which define nearly every
aspect of Department policy and procedure, have been publicly
available online for almost as long as the Pentagon has been on
the world wide web.

Now the directive database website has been restricted to
official users only. See:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/

"If this represents a permanent change, it is a shocking
development," said private researcher Robert Todd. "I can't
believe they've gone overboard like this."

Many DoD directives may still be found elsewhere online,
including on the FAS website here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/index.html


WHY IS THE COST OF THE IRAQI WMD SEARCH CLASSIFIED?

Despite repeated questioning, Bush Administration officials have
been unable to provide an explanation as to why the cost of the
continuing search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is
classified.

According to the New York Times, the Administration is asking
for over $600 million in additional funds for the Iraq Survey
Group, the team led by David Kay that is investigating Iraqi WMD
programs, or about twice its estimated budget to date.

See "Officials Say Bush Seeks $600 Million to Hunt Iraq Arms" by
James Risen and Judith Miller, New York Times, October 2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/politics/02WEAP.html

But incredibly, that fact is classified. Several alert reporters
posed an obvious follow-up question: Why?

In a vivid illustration of the capriciousness of much
classification policy, officials were unable to articulate a
reason why this sort of information should be kept secret.

"I can't get into the classified section of budget
appropriations," replied White House spokesman Scott McClellan
at a press briefing on October 2.

"I don't classify these things," said Defense Secretary Donald
Rumsfeld evasively. "I'm sure that they have classifications for
good reason."

"I'm sure no one in this room wants me to discuss classified
information," Scott McClellan added with apparent sarcasm when
the subject was raised again on October 6. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/10/600mill.html

(Asked whether the reported $600 million supplemental figure was
accurate, Senator Mitch McConnell, a member of the
Appropriations Committee, said "Yes, it is about $600 million,"
according to the Associated Press on October 7. A staffer later
told AP, not quite credibly, that the Senator's statement was
based on news reports, not on actual classified documents.)

(The projected $900 million total budget for the Iraq Survey
Group "represents about four times the entire annual budget of
the International Atomic Energy Agency for its inspection work
around the world," IAEA spokesman Mark Gwozdecky told Agence
France Presse.)

The activities of the Iraq Survey Group, while sensitive in some
respects, are not intrinsically beyond public description. Group
leader David Kay explained some of the details of the WMD search
this way on ABC's This Week on October 5:

"I need between 1200 and 1500 people.... We need the resources
to award... reward money if, in fact, people step forward. We
need to continue an activity that allows us to go through those
130 ammunition storage points and determine what is there. We
need to continue doing what we're doing."

But why, another reporter asked him at an October 2 press
stakeout, "Why is the amount of money this job is going to cost,
why is that secret?"

"Beats me," Dr. Kay replied.


WHITE HOUSE LEAK INVESTIGATION PROCEEDS

The unauthorized disclosure of the identity of an undercover CIA
officer continued to dominate the White House daily press
briefing yesterday.

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/10/wh100703b.html

"The President has made it very clear that the leaking of
classified information is a serious matter, and he takes it very
seriously," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

But this artful statement blurred the distinction between
information such as the CIA officer's identity, which is
protected by a specific statute, and most other types of
classified information, which are not protected by specific
statutes.


DECLASSIFIED DOCS ON THE 1973 ARAB-ISRAEL WAR

The National Security Archive has published an extensive new
collection of declassified U.S. government documents concerning
the 1973 Arab-Israel war, on the 30th anniversary of that war.

The collection, edited by Archive scholar William Burr, traces
the war from impending hostilities through cease-fire, collapse
of the cease-fire, and final resolution, as mirrored in U.S.
government deliberations. See:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB98/press.htm


ANTI-TERRORISM INTELLIGENCE TOOLS IMPROVEMENT ACT

Most recent legislative initiatives concerning domestic anti-
terrorism activity have been aimed at curtailing or refining the
surveillance authorities that were previously granted in the USA
Patriot Act.

But two influential House Committee chairmen have introduced a
bill that would expand and reinforce those authorities.

The "Anti-Terrorism Intelligence Tools Improvement Act" (H.R.
3179) would provide new penalties for violating the non-
disclosure provisions of so-called "national security letters";
provide for judicial enforcement of requests for information
under such national security letters; and facilitate the use of
information collected under the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act in immigration proceedings.

The bill was introduced on September 25 by Rep. James
Sensenbrenner, chair of the House Judiciary Committee, and Rep.
Porter Goss, chair of the House Intelligence Committee. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/hr3179.html


INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE IN SERBIA

The Republic of Serbia has joined the growing number of
countries that publicly disclose their annual level of
intelligence spending in the interest of government
accountability.

The United States is still not among them.

The intelligence agency of Serbia, known as the Bezbednosno-
Informativna Agencija or BIA, recently disclosed on its web site
that in 2003 the BIA initially received 1.6 billion yud, out of
a total national budget of 261.5 billion yud.

See the impressive new BIA website here:

http://www.bia.sr.gov.yu

Intelligence budget disclosure is increasingly becoming the norm
in enlightened democracies. It is now routine in the United
Kingdom, the Netherlands, Canada and elsewhere (SN, 6/12/03).

But the U.S. cannot risk providing the same kind of government
accountability as Serbia and the others, according to the CIA.

To do so, Director of Central Intelligence George J. Tenet
averred under penalty of perjury last March, would cause
"damage" to the national security of the United States and would
compromise intelligence methods.

DCI Tenet's 15 page sworn statement on the matter was provided
in opposition to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, which is
still pending, seeking declassification of the 2002 intelligence
budget total. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/tenet.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Oct > Oct 8

                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:58:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

<snip>

Ray,

The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs






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   Oct > Oct 8

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:14:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:53:34 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:34:51 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:46:12 +0100
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>In research my Canadian friend and colleague Andrew Lavoie has
>>done regarding the ML307 and it's variants we have discovered
>>that far from the impression given in many reports of the time
>>that the ML307 was some strange and rare device, it was both
>>widely used and known about from it's inception into service in
>>1944 as the "/A" model closely followed by the "/B" model a few
>>months later the same year. They were referred to by model
>>reference and photograph in Basic Radar training manuals found
>>from the period as _the_ standard pilot balloon radar reflector
>>and were categorised as a "standard" Army stores stock item.
>>Hence it must have been easy to draw a pack of them out of FWAAF
>>stores to show the press at the demonstration given and
>>photographed there on the 9th July. One has to ask the question
>>though, why didn't Ramey do this on the afternoon/evening of the
>>8th July when the other FW photographs were taken? and why did
>>he state to the press earlier on the afternoon of the 8th that
>>the debris though looking similar to balloon/target debris had
>>_not_ been identified as such by any of his men on the base.
>>(quote to Reuters News Service)

>The quote came filtered through one of his intelligence
>officers, Major Kirton. There are other quotes coming directly
>from Ramey or attributed to Ramey where he states that it looked
>like a radar target and balloon to him. For a summary of these
>news stories with quotes see:

>http://www.roswellproof.com/RoswellSummary6.html

>A complete list of stories is at:

>http://www.roswellproof.com/press_coverage.html


David, List,

The Reuters extract also clearly pushes the thought that the
debris has the appearance of balloon/target debris but
_explicitly_ states that _no_ _one_ at FWAAF could identify it
as such, and this statement is clearly attributed to Gen Ramey
and though the release is issued by Maj Kirton, literal quotes,
which they are in the release, wouldn't have been issued without
authority of the source, Kirton would have been risking his
position if he hadn't got Ramey's clearance to use the quote.

<snip>

>>He could after all have just got
>>someone to draw a pack out of stores or borrow one from the
>>unit shown using the targets the next day, and compared the
>>two on the floor of his office. So why didn't he?,

>Why not just grab one from the unit stores (or whereever), bust
>it up, and then display it as the wrecked object found near
>Roswell? A pristine radar target present next to a busted up one
>in a photo shoot may have been a little too obvious or cute.

>>the Newton
>>Photograph going with Newton's identification quotes would have
>>been an ideal opportunity to show an ML307 side by side with the
>>debris.

>Totally unnecessary. You have a general telling the media that
>he thinks it is probably a radar target but he'll bring in a
>weather officer to make sure. Then Ramey has photos taken. Then
>the weather officer officially ID's it. Nothing more would be
>needed. Why wouldn't the press buy the story as-is?

So why go to the even greater trouble the day after of
organising nationwide displays and getting the press back yet
again just to take their snaps of humble ML307's being
launched???.

When you could have done the same job in one fell swoop the
evening before?? And stopped the story dead in it's tracks.
After all you had all the nations press there (so the story
goes) thirsty for material.

To me it's an obvious opportunity that _should_ have been used
_if_ things were as cut and dried as everyone seems to think.

>>Why didn't Ramey or his PIO grab _this_ opportunity to
>>knock the Roswell Disc story on the head by showing what the
>>debris "really" was, there and then?.

>Because they had already knocked it on its head by declaring it
>a weather balloon radar target, showing very unimpressive debris
>lying on the floor, and having a weather official officially ID
>it.

Wasn't it more likely that as they had already given out the
fact, at least to Reuters (and others -ie the FBI) that they had
already failed to identify it as a balloon/target they dare not
show the two together, side by side??.

<snip>

>>The answer appears to be quite simple, the debris in Ramey's
>>office is _not_ an ML307, or more accurately, if we are expected
>>to believe it is an ML307,

>Sorry Neil, but it is an ML-307. I'm sorry to have to go through
>this again.

>>then it's an ML307 that is not built
>>to the Army Signal Corp engineering specifications. The most
>>obvious point being those lovely "white" edges to the foil
>>panels. If you build a model ML307 _correctly_ to the Army
>>specifications you will find that these "white" edges _do_ _not_
>>appear in your model. If they do, then you are _not_ following
>>the construction methods laid down in the engineering drawings
>>correctly.

>This is false. The white edges were very much a part of the
>specified ML-307 construction if you read the confusing
>schematic correctly. The white strip is simply the white
>paper/foil backing folded over along an edge to form a frame-
>work stick sheath or reinforcement edge.

David, the original engineering drawings explicitly state and I
quote.

"There shall be no foil-to-foil cemented joints"

To produce the effect as seen in the debris photographs of the
"white" edge strips ie the _paper_ backing facing towards the
camera along the edge of a foil panel as we see in the images
the panel would have to have been constructed _with_ a foil-to-
 foil joint. This is strictly forbidden by the ML307
specification, and as I pointed out in my previous post, it can
be confirmed from the July 9th Star Telegram pictures taken out
at FWAAF the ML307's being used there the day after, _were_
_not_ constructed this way, they followed the specification to
the letter they don't have "white edges" on the foil sheets and
have the correct paper-backing to paper-backing joints as
specified.

This specification wasn't just made up for the sake of it, the
paper backing of the foil would absorb the glue used and two
such surfaces glued together would provide a sound and strong
joint. But foil would be impervious and the glue would not be
able to "key" into the surface, foil to paper or worse, foil to
foil, would provide an extremely poor mechanical joint that was
liable to spring apart at any time. It's obvious the Signal Corp
were aware of this and so made it clear on the ML307 drawings
this situation was not to occur.

>Further if you check
>the "real" ML307's of the period, like >those photographed at
>FWAAF on the 9th of July you will also >find these "white" edges
>_cannot_ be found on the real ML307's >shown, we've looked hard
>to find them on the original negs, >they're not there. Those
>ML307's _were_ built correctly to the >specifications.

>I have photos clearly showing the white edges on an early Rawin,
>such as the ones I show at the bottom of my page on Rawin
>construction showing a Rawin from 4 different angles.

>http://www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html
>
>See, white strips? (These photos are screen captures a movie of
>a radar target demonstration, probably from 1947, which you can
>download at http://www.roswellproof.com/balloondemos.html. Go to
>the very bottom of the page.)

>Attachment 26 in the AF Roswell Report showing preparation for a
>Mogul launch also shows a white strip or two in the radar
>targets on the ground. See:

>http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/history/roswell/report/p292.html

>The middle radar target clearly shows the white strip on foil at
>the top even in this lower-resolution reproduction.
>
>Whether one sees the white strips or not depends on the lighting
>and the angle at which the ML307 is viewed. Not all the edges
>had the white strips, with the foil/paper being folded the other
>way.

The target in the mpg clip is interesting and does appear to
conform to the spec, if you single step and track some of the
stripes as the target rotates round you can actually see these
seem to be effects of the glued foil giving a different
reflection from the rest of the foil sheet, as the rear plain
paper backing comes into view you can see the fold over has been
done correctly and a paper to paper joint made and this is even
where a stripe appears to be seen on the foil side of the panel.
It's a pity the date of this clip is unknown but if you check a
dated example where a high res image is available ie the ST's
images from the 9th July, which I note you also have on your
sight, you can see quite clearly my point about the assembly of
the joints. You can also see the effect of the glued joint on
the foil side of the sheets as in the mpg clips target.

>>We can now see why Ramey appeared confused in identifying the
>>debris saying it "looked" like balloon/target debris because it
>>did!

>It was a balloon/target.

Here I assume you are referring to the debris as seen in the FW
pics.

Well I tallied up some 15 plus anomalies seen in the debris
which didn't conform to the ML307 design and I know Andrew in
his analysis has a collection of engineering anomalies which
also stack up to the debris seen in the photo's _not_ being that
of an ML307. On the subject of the "white edge", on the panel
leaning against DuBos's knee there is a "bar fastener" and tab
assembly viable on the "white edge" this is certainly _not_
specified ML307 equipment.

>And believe me, Ramey wasn't the least
>bit confused about what he had displayed. The fix was in from
>the beginning.

The record says the opposite, the early Reuters report has him
saying the debris cannot be identified it's only some time later
that the confirmed balloon cover story kicked in.

>>, yet when it came to checking the fine details this theory
>>falls apart and so, as he told Reuters, no one at the base could
>>identify the debris as that of an Army type balloon/target.

>What Kirton told Reuters, not Ramey,

Kirton gave a "literal quoted" statement, ie these are Ramey's
words I'm relating.

>and probably very early on in the balloon story.

>Ramey was generally saying he thought it a
>radar target (though at other times the stories reported him
>just given a generic description of the debris). E.g., the Fort
>Worth Star-Telegram on July 9 stated, "As soon as the 'disk' was
>brought into General Ramey's office, he and Colonel Dubose
>tabbed it as a weather device. The weather officer on duty at
>the time, Warrant Officer Newton, merely made identification
>positive." Or in another addition: "After his first look, Ramey
>declared all it was a weather balloon. The weather officer
>verified his view."

When it comes to general reports like the above we do have to
be aware that vary many stories that appeared in print were
in fact sometimes heavily editorialised and rehashed copy
from sometimes several wireservice reports over a period of
time. The above is a good example and completely inaccurate,
if Bill Moore's research is to be accepted Newton was not on
duty at the time the debris arrived, and according to Kirton
and Reuters Ramey did not declare immediately it was a balloon
he had staff at FWAAF examine it and they too were baffled by
it.

>To compare Kirton quotes (with Kirton telling different stories
>perhaps at different times or depending on whom he spoke to):

<snip>

>You have to understand that the press was being told all sorts
>of sometimes contradictory and inconsistent things. (E.g., even
>the original Roswell base press release was reported differently
>by AP, UP, and the Roswell Daily Record.) Further, the story
>being told was 7rapidly changing. I think it is questionable at
>best to base a theory of what Ramey knew or don't know or what
>was or was not in Ramey's office going on only one Reuters'
>story quoting a second-hand source while ignoring all the other
>stories that contradict it, including those that quote Ramey
>directly.

The Reuters story provides a view of the story from a new and
fresh source, you have to admit David that a large majority of
the stories published in the press at the time are nothing more
than rewrites of the same wires service output,(barring the few
reporters who actually managed to get through by phone) you make
a point of this on your website.

So what we see in main in the US press are multiple local
variants of the same source material drawn from the limited
number of major news sources ie AP, UP, INS etc.

It also contains unique and significant information not seen at
all elsewhere, the fact that FWAAF in a statement attributed Gen
Ramey admitted at some time on the 8th July that they could
_not_ identify the debris flown in from Roswell.

Why should I dismiss this report for others like the one you quoted
above which can be identified as obviously wrong and inaccurate in
their content?.

I am also now very cautious of some of the timings assumed for
some of the news reports after research done into the situation
of daylight saving time usage in the period after WWII through
to in many cases the early 1960's. I note on your website that
you refer to Fort Worth times in daylight saving terms. This is
not correct, Texas did not adopt daylight saving until the
1960's they have operated consistently on standard time
throughout. The adoption of daylight saving in the US was
frankly a mess, in some cases while states as a whole might
adopt daylight saving it was possible for individual towns or
counties to opt out, all extremely confusing if you're trying to
track events across time zones as is the case with Roswell.

An example of the confusion, Bond Johnson has said that he was
told to hurry out to FWAAF to take his pictures because the ST
was running up against the east coast print deadline. I know
David you don't agree with our timings, but our sun angle
analysis from Bond's pictures we say places him in Ramey's
office at aprox 3.15pm CST, that's 2.15pm Roswell time but
5.15pm Boston time as they were running on daylight saving.
And while it contentiously puts Bond was in Ramey's office
_before_ the first AP wire story ran, it does confirm he _was_
running up against the print dead-line for the 1st edition
Boston papers (ir the Star Telegram's first run was 9pm and
dead-lined for pictures some 2hrs before that ie 7pm FW time)

This anomalous patchwork quilt of daylight time observance
stretched all across the US, it must have been hell to work
out long distance transport timetables!!.

>>In the end though the flawed balloon theory was still close
>>enough on the face of it to make a good cover story, and people
>>would see in the debris what they were told it was. So he ran
>>with it, and as a cover story it's worked just fine for the last
>>50+ years.

>The debris in the photos is an ML-307 radar target. I had a very
>frustrating series of e-mail debates with Andrew LeVoie and Ed
>Gehrman about this last March with the same erroneous arguments
>about how it couldn't be an ML-307 radar target because of the
>white strips. I kept saying to look more carefully at the
>engineering schematic (which clearly shows that some of the
>edges had white strips)

I'm sure Andrew will have something to say about this and more
as he's continued to research the ML307 and it's history.

>and especially look at the photos of
>other ML-307's sporting those supposedly nonexistent white
>strips (again, see my links above).

The best photographic references showing contemporary samples of
the ML3087 I would suggest, are the ST's photographs known to
have been taken within 24hrs of the original FW pics. We have
looked at these closely, I've a scan of the original neg on the
screen as I type this, I don't see the white stripes as seen in
the Ramey Office photo's. Certainly the foil stick "flaps"
differ in reflectivity from the rest of the foil sheet but I
would expect that as they've been folded,treated and glued in
manufacture.

>I am sorry to say that you guys keep beating a dead horse
>because you are refusing to face facts.

Best Regards

Neil
Still flogging on<g>








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                      Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 13:05:59 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:17:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Ledger


>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:08:04 +0100
>Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
>>Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>>This week on UK TV, there is a program showing a UFO hoax, which
>>has been much discussed here in the UK. A controlled balloon
>>over Avebury.

<snip>

>Channel 4 wouldn't buy two programmes, so they got merged, but
>with the emphasis very much on the second concept. As you may
>have seen, the people commissioned to design, build and fly the
>model UFO were not ufologists, but model makers involved in the
>film industry, and experts in flying radio-controlled aircraft.
>It's not the case that UFO researchers, sceptics or debunkers
>had a hand in any of this.

<snip>


Nick, Roy and List,

The following is a response I received from the CAA when I
questioned the use of such a craft in a built up area and as to
whether the CAA had sactioned it. This is the real question
here. They did. See below. I'm not satisfied that flying this,
remotely controlled by 7 RC operators, over a group of people
was adequately addressed by the CAA. It seem many were aware of
this event, but it's un-certain whether the CAA was aware of the
real reasons for this UAV's flight.

Best,

Don Ledger


**********

Dear Mr Ledger,

I refer to your e-mail of 27 August 2003 concerning the
operation of a large saucer shaped unmanned aircraft (UAV) in
Wiltshire earlier this month, to which I have been asked to
reply.

UAVs and model aircraft weighing over 20 kgs are treated as
aircraft under the Air Navigation Order and an Exemption is
required to operate them. Currently there are approximately 100
such aircraft exempted for flight.

Exemption for flight is conditional upon the UAV completing an
approved flight test programme, and the pilots/operators being
approved to fly the UAV. Flight is limited to a maximum height
of 400 feet above the surface and within visual range of the
operator. Visual range is considered to be 500 metres. A fail-
safe system which will cause the UAV to descend and land in the
event of a control failure is also required to be fitted.

The design and build of this particular UAV was monitored by the
CAA and exemption to fly it granted after completion of the test
flight programme, during which all the operators had to
demonstrate their ability to fly the UAV. To meet the
requirement to remain in visual range control of the UAV was
handed on to a new pilot approximately every 300 metres. In the
event of a control failure the gas would be released slowly and
the UAV drift to earth.

Local air traffic agencies were also informed of the flight
which was also notified.

I hope this answers your concerns.

Yours sincerely

Robert Metcalfe
Head of Operations
General Aviation Department.








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                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:16:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

<snip>

Ray,

The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs








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                      Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:34:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Jones


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
>Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>This week on UK TV, there is a program showing a UFO hoax, which
>has been much discussed here in the UK. A controlled balloon
>over Avebury.

>I can only say, if the people behind this hoax would spend as
>much money time and effort, looking for real answers on this
>subject, then perhaps we would be slightly further ahead in the
>game of unanswered questions on UFOs.

>I cannot stop thinking about why a media company, possibly
>given a helping hand by 'UFO Researchers', would really want to
>go through the hassle of such a waste of time, hoaxing UFOs? Or
>is it just to keep the same old message on track, 'FOs do not
>exist', keep feeding the public the same old message, year after
>year.

>Perhaps there is just too much money floating around in the
>media, and it has too get spent on something, looks like the
>cleaners idea was well used after all!



Good Morning All,

I watched the program last night with great enthusiasm. <g>

Roy,

I do not think the program was a waste of time at all. I think
the money was well spent, albeit it could have been better
spent.

The reason that I say that the money was well spent is for two
main reasons.

1) The program people knew _exactly_ what the object looked
like.

The people observing the UFO did not and their descriptions
varied. This is _brilliant_ because it proves what us Ufologists
have being saying for ages that peoples perceptions differ and
shall report seeing slightly different things, a note confirmed
by Nick Pope on the show.

So this immediately confirms that debunkers are speaking with
falsehood when they say that witnesses should all report seeing
exactly the same object if indeed that is what multiple
witnesses observed. Follow my drift?

To be truthful it also looked different in the various shots
that they showed of the object, due to lighting differences.

2) Research into how the public & media react. The program
showed clearly enough the various ways the public and media
reacted to the hoax, including news snippets. In my opinion they
did not go into enough detail on this point, but they made their
point that the reactions where pretty much what they expected.

So given that a hoax generates this kind of reaction, what does
a genuine (albeit this was _technically_ a genuine UFO at the
time) UFO would generate. The fact that a clear cut sighting,
with multiple witnesses and camera footage only made the
"giggle" & "and finally" portion of the news programs proves
that the subject is still not being taken as seriously as it
should.


On an aside note, a stereo typical UFO moving slowly was exactly
the sort of UFO people expect to see, so in a way there was less
scepticism.

On another aside note, it also proved that _some_ UFO's are not
UFO's but deliberate attempts to fool the observer, and I don't
necessarily mean deliberate hoax's either.

Regards

Sean
--

   In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
              http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:58:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

<snip>

Ray,

The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs






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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:23:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:27:05 EDT
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Well I sure opened up a can of worms with the original post on
>this thread!

>I must have a dozen or more news services from around the world
>as well as UFO researchers and one debunker who got creamed
>contacting me.

Well I hope I'm not inviting a "creaming" here when I point out
that this Giant Triangle Multiple-Witness story seems to be
another one of those multiple witness stories where we only ever
seem to hear from one witness. We are told that:

>I've tried on numerous occasions to get the other staff members
>to recall the incidents but they're all scared stiff.

How strange, especially as nothing dramatic seems to have
happened to Mr Boone.

>Somebody got to them but didn't get to me. I'm a stubborn cuss
>who in those days when I was in my early 20's would fight at the
>drop of a hat! Didn't matter how many to fight, just the more
>the merrier! I was raised by a long line of two-fisted Marines
>and military and backing down from anything was sort of like
>Klingon dishonor.

Obviously we need more two-fisted ufologists - or Klingons.

It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
further information, Jerry?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:58:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

<snip>

Ray,

The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs






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   Oct > Oct 8

             Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:43:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:19:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents



>From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>)
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:12:23 +0100
>Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:42:21 -0300
>>Subject: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

>>A group that specialises in finding scientific explanations
>>for unidentified flying objects

>>city for 15 minutes. Made of kite paper, they exuded an
>>"unearthly, orangey-red glow", said Werner Walter, who heads
>>the national research network on extraordinary celestial
>>phenomena."

>This is just to let you know that these statements above, quoted
>from the article of this South African Newspaper, are simply not
>true.

>Mr. Walter is not a scientist. He's run, for many years, a one
>man show of debunking any phenomena which are related to UFO
>sightings.

<snip>

>He is anything but 'the head of the national research
>network..." because it simply doesn't exist in Old Germany.

>No one here in Berlin, the capital of Germany, has heard of such
>a sighting event and I find it funny to read about it on this
>List.

All that makes sense, Joachim. It would be extremely improbable
to find a multiple-number of balloons aligned first in one
formation and then realigned into another regular formation.
Turbulence and dispersion just doesn't work that way.


Jim Deardorff








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                  Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 12:27:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:52:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Friedman


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:22:17 EDT
>Subject: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting?

>Found a bit of data about UFOs on a website. Nice info that
>suggests saucers and boomerang craft had been seen prior to '47.
>One snippet had mention that then Maj. Jesse Marcel had his own
>close encounter and am wondering if this is true?

>http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/V-Formations.htm


Bob Pratt is a fine reporter. However, a formation of lights
flying by is not by Hynek's definition a close encounter. It is
a UFO sighting since he couldn't identify what he saw. Certainly
not all UFO sightigs are close encounters.


Stan Friedman








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                      Did Meteorites Punch Swamp Holes

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:50:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:59:34 -0400
Subject: Did Meteorites Punch Swamp Holes


Hi List,

I thought this was an interesting newspaper article due to
meteorites being reported falling in the 1930s.

Also I will be uploading the two photos which go along with this
article to my site later on.

Take care
Brian
HBCC UFO Research


Did Meteorites Punch Swamp Holes

Houston Today Newspaper
Wednesday, October 1, 2003
No 40
As told by Ed Westgarde

Guiding, prospecting and trapping, Ed Westgarde naturally takes
a avid interest in wildlife, and consequently found that they,
like humans, are susceptible to a variety of accidents that can
lead to their deaths.

Westgarde says he was recently shown what he calls "one of
natures most vicious accident and death-causing animal traps."

How many animals have died here, he's not sure, but says that
the bones and skulls of animals of all ages surround what he
called a bone yard.

For anyone passing by, the bone yard appears to be just another
harmless puddle in a grassy area, measuring about 10 feet
across, with one large exception...the mass of hair that floats
across the top.

According to Westgarde, there is no running water or moving
water here, and the sides of the pond are straight up and down
with no bottom in sight. He can only assume that an animal steps
in to take a drink, but then plunges to the bottom. He says
there are marks from pawing hooves, indicating that some animals
may have been able to paw their way out, but not many, due to
the large number of bones lying around.

As strange as this hole is, Westgarde says it is not the only
one, that nearby there are a few smaller holes, the sides of
which are also straight up and down, and also with no apparent
bottom.

According to Westgarde, these wildlife traps were discovered by
Lorne Spence, who is well known across British Columbia, the
prairie provinces and the Northern United Sates for his mineral
exploration and drilling, while staking mineral claims in the
area.

Westgarde says that in the 1930s, a man by the name of Emil
Widen claimed to have seen meteorites fall in the area, but that
he was unable to find where they landed.

"Do you think they made these holes?" Westgarde asks.

He wonders if the area should be fenced off... for safety sake.







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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 12:51:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:03:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:27:05 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>Well I sure opened up a can of worms with the original post on
>>this thread!

>>I must have a dozen or more news services from around the world
>>as well as UFO researchers and one debunker who got creamed
>>contacting me.

>Well I hope I'm not inviting a "creaming" here when I point out
>that this Giant Triangle Multiple-Witness story seems to be
>another one of those multiple witness stories where we only ever
>seem to hear from one witness. We are told that:

>>I've tried on numerous occasions to get the other staff members
>>to recall the incidents but they're all scared stiff.

>How strange, especially as nothing dramatic seems to have
>happened to Mr Boone.

Seems? Did you 'ask' me if anything dramatic happened to me?
It's easy, you send me an e-mail. Millions of people use emails
everyday. It's funny how much information can be gathered by
politely 'asking' instead of tossing attempts of invalidation.
Go on, try it. They even have emoticons and cute pictures added
to make the e-mailing experience more fun!

>>Somebody got to them but didn't get to me. I'm a stubborn cuss
>>who in those days when I was in my early 20's would fight at the
>>drop of a hat! Didn't matter how many to fight, just the more
>>the merrier! I was raised by a long line of two-fisted Marines
>>and military and backing down from anything was sort of like
>>Klingon dishonor.

>Obviously we need more two-fisted ufologists - or Klingons.

No, we need more ufologists with manners. Might be able to get
more information from the public as well.

>It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
>only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
>getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
>further information, Jerry?


Well if you're the 'associative' type that's on you. Whomever
'Jerry' is, perhaps you should e-mail him. As for me, ask me.
It's easy.


Best,

Greg








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman

From: Edward Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:32:19 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:18:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested


Ray, EBK, List,

As listers may recall, I came to you several months ago and
asked if there were folks who might like to examine the
mysterious material that my brother and I found at what we
believed to be the cameraman's crash site. The cameraman is the
person who sold the alien autopsy footage to Ray Santilli.

In 1995 when the alien autopsy was more immediate and pregnant
with possibility, several researchers including Michael
Hesseman, Glenn Campbell, and Steve Kaeser decided to try to
find the crash site described by the cameraman.

They communicated with the cameraman via Ray Santilli and
obtained a set of directions to the site. The directions were
very specific on how to get to the general area but not specific
as to exactly where the site was located. The site they finally
identified didn't exactly match the description given by the
cameraman although several features were close to the mark.
Unfortunately, they were two miles short of their goal. Had they
traveled a little further down the arroyo they were searching,
they would have come to the site my brother and I found and the
whole AA story might have had a different reception.

By the time my brother and I began searching for the site, two
years ago, the Alien Autopsy had been relegated to either the
gray basket or the wastebasket of most respectable ufologists;
we knew that anything we found would be suspect unless we found
tangible proof.

As I have stated before, both my brother and I are very familiar
with New Mexico history and geology and what to expect when we
hike the desert, so we both were excited when we found an area,
larger than three football fields, covered with a strange glass-
like material that neither of us could identify.  The
cameraman's description of the site's general layout matched our
observations, exactly.

But my brother was still very skeptical and insisted that we
take a sample of the material to a friend who is also a well-
known New Mexico geologist. He examined a representative sample
and told us that he could not identify the material. " I don't
know what this is." That convinced us that we were on to
something.

I brought our findings to Updates in the hope that others would
become interested and want to get involved, but our new
information fell on deaf ears and not a single person
volunteered. I then asked if there were folks who could examine
the material for themselves or find knowledgeable scientists to
examine it for them. This elicited five responses, including
Ray's request for a sample. At the time, I didn't realize just
how difficult it could be to identify a mineral sample. I now
know better; the only precise method is X-ray Diffraction. Had I
know that then, I could have avoided my subsequent difficulties
with Ray by simply paying for the XRD services and bringing the
results to the list in a nice neat little package.

But Ray, who feels he knows for sure that the alien autopsy
footage is a fraud, has decided that I'm a deluded bumpkin who
needs reeducation. So he insists on revising my honest and
sincere observations and deductions and in the process confusing
the matter until it has become a tangled mess of contradictory
red herrings.


The cameraman's story is really quite simple. Ray Santilli
bought twenty-two rolls of film from him. The price was
$100,000. The cameraman supplied diaries and photo albums to
prove he really was who he said he was. But he insisted that his
identity be concealed. He provided a brief account of his
involvement, and also was interviewed by Japanese TV.  He
assisted the researchers who tried to find the site and
communicated with me on one occasion, via Ray. He is not a
figment of Santilli's imagination.

The cameraman assisted an artist who was commissioned to draw
the crash site. I believe he used photos to sharpen his wits
because the details of the terrain are just too accurate to be
drawn from memory. I've taken the drawing to the site and have
been able to compare it to what is actually there. The
cristobalite can be clearly seen in the drawing, and the
background terrain is exactly the same as the background in the
drawings. They also show the craft and two aliens. The craft is
intact. The aliens seem to be dead or dying.

We now know for sure that the strange material is cristobalite,
which only forms at extremely high temperatures. I do not
contend that the heat from the craft formed the cristobalite by
melting the rhyolite rock at the site and transforming it.  I
argue that silica (desert sand) was picked up in the disabled
craft's vortex, which melted it and then deposited it at the
site when it impacted the cliff face and then finally came to
rest about two hundred yards to the northeast. Contrary to Ray's
assertions, the craft did not disintegrate and the AA debris
does not indicate this nor do the drawings. What the AA debris
does show is extreme heat, i.e. some melted metal fragments, but
almost all the remaining debris seems to be intact and unharmed.

Ray wrote to me that he would bet his life that the material I
sent him was agate. I told him I thought that was a little
extreme. Now that the material has been positively identified as
cristobalite, I won't hold him to this bet, but his statement
certainty indicates a personality defect that I've found common
to all debunkers: often wrong but seldom in doubt.

We can learn a great deal about our common alien predicament
from studying the alien autopsy footage. I think it's a shame
that most serious investigators don't understand this. And why
won't anyone visit the site with my brother and me. I guarantee
an adventure you won't soon forget.

We'll be there on October 24th. Anyone care to join us?


Ed







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman

From: Edward Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:32:19 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:18:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested


Ray, EBK, List,

As listers may recall, I came to you several months ago and
asked if there were folks who might like to examine the
mysterious material that my brother and I found at what we
believed to be the cameraman's crash site. The cameraman is the
person who sold the alien autopsy footage to Ray Santilli.

In 1995 when the alien autopsy was more immediate and pregnant
with possibility, several researchers including Michael
Hesseman, Glenn Campbell, and Steve Kaeser decided to try to
find the crash site described by the cameraman.

They communicated with the cameraman via Ray Santilli and
obtained a set of directions to the site. The directions were
very specific on how to get to the general area but not specific
as to exactly where the site was located. The site they finally
identified didn't exactly match the description given by the
cameraman although several features were close to the mark.
Unfortunately, they were two miles short of their goal. Had they
traveled a little further down the arroyo they were searching,
they would have come to the site my brother and I found and the
whole AA story might have had a different reception.

By the time my brother and I began searching for the site, two
years ago, the Alien Autopsy had been relegated to either the
gray basket or the wastebasket of most respectable ufologists;
we knew that anything we found would be suspect unless we found
tangible proof.

As I have stated before, both my brother and I are very familiar
with New Mexico history and geology and what to expect when we
hike the desert, so we both were excited when we found an area,
larger than three football fields, covered with a strange glass-
like material that neither of us could identify.  The
cameraman's description of the site's general layout matched our
observations, exactly.

But my brother was still very skeptical and insisted that we
take a sample of the material to a friend who is also a well-
known New Mexico geologist. He examined a representative sample
and told us that he could not identify the material. " I don't
know what this is." That convinced us that we were on to
something.

I brought our findings to Updates in the hope that others would
become interested and want to get involved, but our new
information fell on deaf ears and not a single person
volunteered. I then asked if there were folks who could examine
the material for themselves or find knowledgeable scientists to
examine it for them. This elicited five responses, including
Ray's request for a sample. At the time, I didn't realize just
how difficult it could be to identify a mineral sample. I now
know better; the only precise method is X-ray Diffraction. Had I
know that then, I could have avoided my subsequent difficulties
with Ray by simply paying for the XRD services and bringing the
results to the list in a nice neat little package.

But Ray, who feels he knows for sure that the alien autopsy
footage is a fraud, has decided that I'm a deluded bumpkin who
needs reeducation. So he insists on revising my honest and
sincere observations and deductions and in the process confusing
the matter until it has become a tangled mess of contradictory
red herrings.


The cameraman's story is really quite simple. Ray Santilli
bought twenty-two rolls of film from him. The price was
$100,000. The cameraman supplied diaries and photo albums to
prove he really was who he said he was. But he insisted that his
identity be concealed. He provided a brief account of his
involvement, and also was interviewed by Japanese TV.  He
assisted the researchers who tried to find the site and
communicated with me on one occasion, via Ray. He is not a
figment of Santilli's imagination.

The cameraman assisted an artist who was commissioned to draw
the crash site. I believe he used photos to sharpen his wits
because the details of the terrain are just too accurate to be
drawn from memory. I've taken the drawing to the site and have
been able to compare it to what is actually there. The
cristobalite can be clearly seen in the drawing, and the
background terrain is exactly the same as the background in the
drawings. They also show the craft and two aliens. The craft is
intact. The aliens seem to be dead or dying.

We now know for sure that the strange material is cristobalite,
which only forms at extremely high temperatures. I do not
contend that the heat from the craft formed the cristobalite by
melting the rhyolite rock at the site and transforming it.  I
argue that silica (desert sand) was picked up in the disabled
craft's vortex, which melted it and then deposited it at the
site when it impacted the cliff face and then finally came to
rest about two hundred yards to the northeast. Contrary to Ray's
assertions, the craft did not disintegrate and the AA debris
does not indicate this nor do the drawings. What the AA debris
does show is extreme heat, i.e. some melted metal fragments, but
almost all the remaining debris seems to be intact and unharmed.

Ray wrote to me that he would bet his life that the material I
sent him was agate. I told him I thought that was a little
extreme. Now that the material has been positively identified as
cristobalite, I won't hold him to this bet, but his statement
certainty indicates a personality defect that I've found common
to all debunkers: often wrong but seldom in doubt.

We can learn a great deal about our common alien predicament
from studying the alien autopsy footage. I think it's a shame
that most serious investigators don't understand this. And why
won't anyone visit the site with my brother and me. I guarantee
an adventure you won't soon forget.

We'll be there on October 24th. Anyone care to join us?


Ed







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:37:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:31:53 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:22:17 EDT
>Subject: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting?

>Found a bit of data about UFOs on a website. Nice info that
>suggests saucers and boomerang craft had been seen prior to '47.
>One snippet had mention that then Maj. Jesse Marcel had his own
>close encounter and am wondering if this is true?

http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/V-Formations.htm


Greg,

It wasn't exactly a close encounter, but Marcel did speak of a
personal UFO sighting that occurred a few days before the
Roswell Incident.

www.roswellproof.com/nm_ufo_reports.html

The report from this link as follows:

-------------
Late June or Early July, just before Roswell Incident

*Roswell, N.M., about 11:30 pm [Roswell related witness]

-- In interviews in 1979 and 1981, Lt. Col. Jesse Marcel,
Roswell AAF chief of intelligence in 1947, said that there had
been many reports of flying saucers in the area just before his
involvement in the Roswell Incident starting July 6 or July 7.
One night, about 11:30, the base provost marshal, Major Edwin
Easley, called him up and told him to get out to the base in a
hurry. On his way, south of town, he saw six bright lights in a
perfect V-formation flying north to south, from overhead to the
horizon in maybe 3 or 4 seconds, much faster than any plane.
When he got to the base, Easley told him he had just seen them
too.  Marcel said a GI also told him 2 or 3 days later that he
had seen the same thing. (Interviews with Linda Corley and with
Bob Pratt, Pratt interview reprinted by Karl Pflock in "Roswell:
Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe")

-------------

Also note Marcel's comments about the Wilmot sighting on July 2,
1947. The Wilmot story was reported in the Roswell Daily Record
on July 8 in the famous story announcing the base press release
of the captured flying disk. Dan Wilmot in the Daily Record
story said that he and his wife saw a glowing saucer fly rapidly
overhead headed to the northwest, which would have been in the
direction of the Foster Ranch.

Marcel added more to the story in his Linda Corley interview.
Around 1980 Marcel had returned to Roswell for interviews. He
spoke to Paul Wilmot, Dan Wilmot's son. According to Marcel,
Paul Wilmot told him the astonishing story that his parents had
not only seen the saucer fly overhead but had also seen it
explode in the distance. Marcel then added that Brazel came to
town a few days later to report that something had exploded over
his ranch during a lightning storm.

It was obvious that Marcel thought the Wilmot saucer was the
same object that exploded over the Foster Ranch. If true, that
would pinpoint the date and time of the crash to July 2 at about
10:00 p.m.

David Rudiak








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                   Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:52:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:36:53 -0400
Subject: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Stanford


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:46:54 -0600
>Subject: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

>In a way you're correct. The reel to reel recording of the
>sheriffs department tape is in the public domain. However, that
>recording was digitied, enhanced, restored and remastered by me
>and is significantly changed from its original format. I
>certainly do hold the copyright on the restored version along
>with Bill Jones.

>Before you begin to think I make money doing restoration work on
>ufological recordings, you'd be way off base. Like John Velez
>mentioned, I give so much away free, I make Bill Gates look like
>Silas Marner.

>Support my work or not. I'll still be putting in the effort to
>preserve the recordings for future generations whether I make a
>buck or not. Damn near everything I've brought to the field (and
>it's a massive amount...I kid you not) has been given and shared
>freely to the field of Ufology.


Wendy,

The fine work you are going to preserve much of the UFOlogical
archive is highly commendable, and even if you should happen
make some money in so doing, only some fuzzy minded person might
see anything wrong in that. After all, honestly making money is
nothing of which anyone should be ashamed - be it a few or
millions of dollars.

However, you seem to be saying that your work-over of the
Pascagoula Sheriff's Department tape(s) electronically (as you
say, "...digitied [Sic.], enhanced, restored and remastered by
me and is significantly changed from its original format...")
gives you copyright to the improved version. Such an assertion
would be absolutely wrong, according to copyright law.

Now, please don't shoot the messenger, but just carefully read a
good book on copyright law (as I have done), or talk to a lawyer
who specializes in copyright law.  From either source, you will
learn that the position you express in your above statement is
incorrect.

Surely you realize that if you were to take an old Elvis record
and digitally clean it up to where it sounds sharper and
clearer, such action would not only not give you the right to
copyright it, but publication of it would actually be illegal.
 The only difference with the Pascagoula tape(s) is that they
are evidently in public domain and your improving and publishing
them is entirely illegal, but doing so does not give you
copyright by any stretch of the imagination.

That aside, it is to your credit and a credit to UFOlogy that
you continue to preserve and re-reveal records that might
otherwise likely be lost (or at least be accessible only with
great difficulty) to posterity.  I would even feel better about
it if you could significantly profit financially from such
benefiting of UFOlogy with your magnificent obsession, but even
in absence of that, you continue to sacrifice, give, and serve.

Keep up the good work, Wendy.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                     Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:25:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:38:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Koch


>From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:54:12 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions


>The star system of Alpha Centauri is a triple star system
>consisting of the components Alpha Centauri A, B and C.
>The component C is Proxima Centauri, the closest next
>star to our Sun. C is far apart from A and B. The latter
>form a double star system where A is a star similar to
>our Sun according the spectral type (G2) and it is
>slightly more massive than our Great Mother.
>According to the laws of celestial mechanics, it is
>possible that component A possesses up to 5 planets with
>stable orbits. More outer planets wouldn't have stable
>orbits because of the gravitational influence of
>component B.

Dear Friends and List,

Alpha Centauri is called a triple star system but component C
(Proxima Centauri) is so far away from A and B that is has
nearly no gravitational influence on A and B. So for the star
system only A and B are the more important components. These
two, while travelling around each other on their eternal pathway
through space, they need eighty years for one cycle. The closest
they come towards eachother is 11 astronomical units (AU) which
is the distance of Sun-Saturn here in our solar system. The
farest they are seperated from eachother is 35 AU which is the
distance of Sun-Neptune in our solar system. Alpha Centauri C is
13,000 Ae seperated from components A and B which is about
fourhundred times the distance Sun-Neptune.

11 AU seperation between component A and B allow up to five
planets with stable orbits around component A. And there is the
possibility of one ore two planets encirceling both components
so a citizen of New Berlin on one of these planets would have
the marvellous sight of two suns raising above horizon in the
morning. But the latter possibility of planets orbiting both
suns is a challenge to celestial mechanics.

For additional information see: Ken Coswell 'Does Alpha Centauri
have Intelligent Live?', ASTRONOMY, No. 4, April 1991.

In our book 'Die Antwort des Orion'('Orion's Answer') the whole
chapter 13 is discussing all aspects of the Alpha Centauri star
system.

Regarding the current discussion about Nibiru I have to state
that Mr. Sitchin is probabely wrong by identifying a 12th planet
with 'Nibiru'.

If such a planet would have ripped through our planetary system
in historical times there would have been records. None of this
is available. If there would be an actual approach of such a
massive celestial body there would be indications. Nothing is
reported by our telescopes.

By researching the data and sources such as the Enuma Elish and
the astronomical compendium Mul.Apin as well as other sources we
came to the conclusion that with 'Nibiru' a star is meant and
the best candidate is HD 42807.

In our book 'Die Antwort des Orion'('Orion's Answer') the whole
chapter 28 is discussing all aspects and facts regarding
'Nibiru'.

Finally, I would like to stress that Sitchin's book have been an
enlightment for me and I like all of his books very much.

Though...I think I can prove him wrong with some of his
conclusions that the dark spot in the pictures of the probe
Phobos II in its final transmissions is an UFO.

All the best,

Joachim

------------------------------------
The Old Men have had their Old Wars in Old America -
Let's have New Men and Women creating Peace with New
America!
Dennis Kucinich 2004 - The new U.S. President!
------------------------------------
More Info: http://www.kochkyborg.de







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   Oct > Oct 10

                    Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:43:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:42:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 20:33:13 -0600
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files

><snip>

>The tape indeed was in the public domain. However, it has been
>digitally enhanced, edited, remastered and is no longer in the
>original format. The restored digital version is housed at my
>archive. Bill Jones and I definitely own the copyright to the
>digital restored and remastered version, which is not on Steve's
>website, which contains the original recording as received. So,
>yes, the non-restored version is not copyrighted.

>By the way, I've noticed the shellacking you've taken on the
>List regarding your past New Age journeys. I happen to have a
>couple of your lectures in the archive you gave on "Space, Time
>and the Hilaron Accelerator," as well as, "Psychic Archeology."
>Interesting, but does tend to raise questions. But, hey, knock
>yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>


Wendy,

Contrary to what some might deduce from your words, above, I am
not a 'New Ager', even though some might have considered me as
such several decades ago. I never really felt identified with
that type of thought, despite my involvement with psychic
phenomena and parapsychological studies. 'New Agers' seem to
advocate that one give up critical evaluation and discernment,
preferring wide-eyed acceptance of almost anything or everything
because it might be 'someone else's reality'. Well, they might
consider me spiritually retarded, but I just don't buy that kind
of, IMO, fuzzy mindedness.

As to questions which you suggest my past work in psychic
phenomena might raise, be sure and read my forthcoming response
to Loren Coleman's on-List attempt to slander me.

Your, "But, hey, knock yourself out and go for the gusto. <G>",
is beyond my psychic ability to decode. :) So, if you'd explain
(privately, if you think that best) what you mean by that, I'd
be appreciative.


May your discs never entirely fade out,

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles." --
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:24:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Shough


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:27:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38

>>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:51:08 +0100
>>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38

>>Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com>
>>==========================
>>UFO ROUNDUP
>>Volume 8, Number 38 October 8, 2003
>>Editor: Joseph Trainor

><snip>

>>MYSTERIOUS BLACKOUT SENDS ITALY REELING

>>From the UFO Files...

>>1964: STRANGE ARTIFACT ON THE OCEAN FLOOR

<snip>

>>The possibility that the Eltanin's mystery undersea
>>antenna might be an alien probe from outer space occurred
>>to only a few people. One of them was Hollywood producer
>>Irwin Allen, who worked the Eltanin mystery into an
>>episode of his TV series Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
>>about a year later. (See the book Atlantis Rising by Brad
>>Steiger, Dell Publishing Co., Inc., 1973, pages 97 and 98.)


>Hello all: That Eltanin account sounded familiar.

>Checking the database, I found the same account, but from this
>very odd book: /r212 CATHIE, Bruce: HARMONIC 33 A.&A. Reed,
>Wellington, NZ on page 32 (book borrowed long ago from Jim
>McCampbell and returned.)

>What this account, Cathie, Steiger and others all pass over is
>the possibility of a ships mast with projecting spars. No
>mystery with the 90-degree angles, no need for strange coral
>formations.

>What is so unobvious about a whaling ship, long sunken into the
>muck, with its mast still sticking up? Whalers go back 200 years
>or so. They were all over the Antarctic seas. The possibility of
>an alien probe found its way into two books, a newsletter and
>who knows where else, but nobody mentions a sunken ship.

>Is there some reason for this?

>The spot I had chosen years back is shown near the bottom
>of this map:

>http://www.larryhatch.net/EMPTYQ.html

>I might have to move it a bit, if I don't delete it.


Hi Larry The Eltanin object is also photographed in Cathie's
'Harmonic 695', where the same location 1000 m W of the Cape is
given but with a depth of 2,500 fathoms (15,000'). An Eltanin
officer is there quoted as speaking in Aukland "in 1968" (not
1964, the year of the survey) to the effect: "It's a marine
organism - but it still looks like an artifact to me!"

It rises vertically from what appears to be a flat and
undisturbed seabed covered with small dark mineral or organic
nodules and its 'stem' flares to about three times its diameter
just at the point of apparent 'attachment' to the seabed. In
these respects it does not resemble the protruding top of a
buried ship's mast or similar. Also the 'spars' are actually
cruciform in plan, i.e. groups of four rods of equal lengths
pointing to four orthogonal compass directions. There appear to
be at least six of these groups disposed irregularly up the
length of the 'stem', five with similar length rods, the sixth,
at the top, having much shorter and thinner rods. They are not
similarly oriented in plan; they all appear to be rotated in
somewhat different directions. However the degree of regularity
is intriguing. The vertical stem looks smooth, straight and very
regular apart from a small swelling at the very top and the
flaring at the base; the 'spars' appear also to be all of about
the same gauge and all have roughly spherical knobs on the tips.

In short it does look lie an artefact, even though on very close
inspection the angles between one or two of the 'spars' are maybe
not *precise* right angles. But then why should they be, I
suppose? On the other hand it also looks organic, if that doesn't
sound contradictory! Altogether a very strange thing.

Hope this is of some use. Could scan you the photo if you can't
get hold of it.


Regards,

Martin Shough








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                  Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:06:35 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:46:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Tonnies


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:22:17 EDT
>Subject: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting?

>Found a bit of data about UFOs on a website. Nice info that
>suggests saucers and boomerang craft had been seen prior to '47.
>One snippet had mention that then Maj. Jesse Marcel had his own
>close encounter and am wondering if this is true?

http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/V-Formations.htm

I might have to eat my words on this, but I think that quote is
accurate. I recall coming across it in the "Roswell literature"
at some point but can't place which book.

(I rather doubt Marcel saw a flock of Mogul balloons, but I bet
Charles Moore could "prove" that that's precisely what he
saw...)


=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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             Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:11:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:50:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:43:36 -0700
>Subject: Re: Fake Flying Saucers Bamboozle German Residents

>All that makes sense, Joachim. It would be extremely improbable
>to find a multiple-number of balloons aligned first in one
>formation and then realigned into another regular formation.
>Turbulence and dispersion just doesn't work that way.


Right, Jim, and to top icing on the cake Mr. Walter explained
away the German/Belgium UFO wave of 1989 as ultra-light
aircraft! So he really states that it was not a genuine UFO
wave.

All the best,

Joachim

----------------------------
More info: www.kochkyborg.de
----------------------------









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                      Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:25:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:54:04 -0400
Subject: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?


A while back I recall a study that focused on the effect of
extreme cold on light.

My question is if extreme cold affects light and it's
particle/wave flow, does the cold of space do so as well?

If that's the case, does the light from distant stars reach us
slower and is it calculated by our scientists when determining
distance and age of these bodies?


Best,

Greg







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                      Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:29:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:59:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax - Rimmer


>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:34:34 +0100
>Subject: Re: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:53:42 +0100
>>Subject: Avebury Balloon Hoax

>>Perhaps there is just too much money floating around in the
>>media, and it has too get spent on something, looks like the
>>cleaners idea was well used after all!

>Good Morning All,

>I watched the program last night with great enthusiasm. <g>

>Roy,

>I do not think the program was a waste of time at all. I think
>the money was well spent, albeit it could have been better
>spent.

Certainly a good hour's entertainment.

>The reason that I say that the money was well spent is for two
>main reasons.

>1) The program people knew _exactly_ what the object looked
>like.

>The people observing the UFO did not and their descriptions
>varied. This is _brilliant_ because it proves what us Ufologists
>have being saying for ages that peoples perceptions differ and
>shall report seeing slightly different things, a note confirmed
>by Nick Pope on the show.
>
>So this immediately confirms that debunkers are speaking with
>falsehood when they say that witnesses should all report seeing
>exactly the same object if indeed that is what multiple
>witnesses observed. Follow my drift?

I'm not sure what your point is here. The witnesses we saw all
gave fairly similar descriptions of the object with just a few
minor

>To be truthful it also looked different in the various shots
>that they showed of the object, due to lighting differences.

The main divergence in descriptions was in the reported size and
distance of the object, and as was made clear on the show, this
was perfectly natural due to the lack of visual clues in an
object viewed against the open sky. I don't think any "debunker"
(by that do you mean "sceptical ufologist"?) would expect all
witnesses to an unusual event to give identical descriptions. In
fact, I have seen "debunkers" criticised on this list for
claiming that witnesses are prone to give very differing
accounts of such events. It is generally believing ufologists
who use similarity of descriptions as evidence for the reality
of UFO reports.

In fact, in the Avebury hoax there was very little scope for
mis- description, as the stimulus was a large, solid object,
flying slowly and close to the observers.

>2) Research into how the public & media react. The program
>showed clearly enough the various ways the public and media
>reacted to the hoax, including news snippets. In my opinion they
>did not go into enough detail on this point, but they made their
>point that the reactions where pretty much what they expected.

I quite agree that this was the weak point in the programme. The
follow- up on the reports by witnesses and media was very
sketchy and inadequate. As with the endless house make-over
shows, the producers were far more interested in the problems
and cock-ups in the run up to the big event, than what actually
happened afterwards!

>So given that a hoax generates this kind of reaction, what does
>a genuine (albeit this was _technically_ a genuine UFO at the
>time) UFO would generate. The fact that a clear cut sighting,
>with multiple witnesses and camera footage only made the
>"giggle" & "and finally" portion of the news programs proves
>that the subject is still not being taken as seriously as it
>should.

I get the impression that the people who saw the balloon at
Avebury did *not* think it was an extraterrestrial craft, just
some sort of very puzzling man-made object, but I would have
welcomed a longer segment on their reactions to learn just what
they _did_ think. Did any of them run off to call the police or
the MoD, for instance?

I also wonder just how much the various TV news programmes which
featured the footage actually knew about the hoax. There were a
great number of people involved in producing it over quite a
long period of time - many of whom worked in the media, movies,
TV, etc. I would be very surprised indeed if rumours about this
had not been circulating for some time. I strongly suspect that
at least one of the news programmes that we saw clips from was
aware of it.

>On an aside note, a stereo typical UFO moving slowly was
>exactly the sort of UFO people expect to see, so in a way there
>was less scepticism.

It was never made clear what people though they were seeing, so
it was hard to judge just what was their opinion on the object.
There was no room for scepticism that they had seen a solid
object; rather more room for debate as to what that object might
have been or where it came from.

>On another aside note, it also proved that _some_ UFO's are not
>UFO's but deliberate attempts to fool the observer, and I don't
>necessarily mean deliberate hoax's either.

How could a deliberate attempt to fool the observer *not* be a
deliberate hoax?


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:45:31 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:11:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Ledger


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:27:05 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>Well I sure opened up a can of worms with the original post on
>>this thread!

>>I must have a dozen or more news services from around the world
>>as well as UFO researchers and one debunker who got creamed
>>contacting me.

>Well I hope I'm not inviting a "creaming" here when I point out
>that this Giant Triangle Multiple-Witness story seems to be
>another one of those multiple witness stories where we only ever
>seem to hear from one witness. We are told that:


Getting your finger in the hole in the dam kinda early aren't
you John. Let's wait and see what develops before you begin
trashing it, otherwise it's just going to be another pissing
contest, with no details being aired. In any event, there's
enough witnesses in Night Seige. What do you need more for?


Don Ledger








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                          Filer's Files #41 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:16:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:24:25 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #41 -- 2003


Filer's Files #41 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer,   Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 8,  2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --
My website is at: http://www.georgefiler.com/
Sponsored by: http://www.filer.isotonix.com/


100 BILLION PLANETS - A LOT OF SPACE TO WASTE

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate: At least 100
billion planets in Milky Way, Space ships and  generation arks,
 Mars Hubble Telescope photo shows green growth of vegetation,
Massachusetts - the black void changed it's shape, New York -
 flying triangle only 40 feet altitude,  New Jersey photos of
UFO, South Carolina frequent sightings, Florida craft shoots off
at incredible speed, Kentucky - strange vanilla star-like light
descends over yard, Ohio monster craft, Michigan - large slow
moving object, Wisconsin flashing strange lights, Oklahoma -
 bright silver orb followed by two cylinder craft, Louisiana - a
twenty minute flying triangle, Texas flying triangle, moving
north, Colorado - perfect parallelogram with dark splotches,
California - wobbling saucper-shaped object, Canada - strange
UFO, Hawaii - sphere flickered between white and red, Nepal new
subscriber in Nepal, and Australia - UFO sighting twice.AT LEAST
100 BILLION PLANETS IN MILKY WAY

About 5 percent of relatively nearby Sun-like stars are known to
harbor planets. But researchers typically find more extrasolar
worlds the longer and harder they examine a star. So most
astronomers assume the number is higher. A new set of
calculations estimates that at least 25 percent of all Sun-like
stars in our galaxy have planets around them.  "We are not
saying that 25 percent of stars have planets -- we are saying
that at least 25 percent of Sun-like stars have planets," says
Charles Lineweaver of the University of New South Wales in
Sydney. "It could be the case that close to 100 percent of stars
have planets. =E2=C7=A6 This means that there are at least 100 billion
stars with planets in our galaxy." And with roughly 400 billion
stars thought to populate the Milky Way, the number of planets
could be higher, he said. Lineweaver and colleague Daniepl
Grether took into account how lengthy monitoring and improved
techniques have found planets around the handful of stars that
are monitored. They also considered that stars with highly
active surfaces can make planet detection more difficult, and
the fact that any smaller planets, akin to the rocky worlds in
our solar system, are not yet detectable at all. "If the Sun
were one of the stars being monitored, we still would not have
detected any planets around it," Lineweaver points out. Previous
similar estpimates have put the figure as high as 15 percent. A
paper on the new calculations will be published in December in
the Astrophysical Journal. In [
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/jupiter_typical_
020128.html ]previous work, Lineweaver estimated there might be
30 billion Earth-sized planets in the galaxy.
http://www.space.com/astronotes/astronotes.html   SPACE SHIPS OR
GENERATION ARKS Isaac Asimov advocated the idea of "generation
arks," that are enclosed artificial planets that travel through
space on long interstellar voyages.  Equipped with homeostatic
ecologies, Asimov's arks could carry passengers from star to
star over hundreds of years.  The original colonists who set off
on journeys aboard the arks would likely not see the voyage
through to the end. However, future generations, born within the
arks' delicate enclosed biosphere's, could eventually finish the
journey initiated by their ancestors. In fact, the story of
Noah=E2=C7=D6s Ark may be based on one of these arks traveling from
one planet to another. NASA designed an enclosed Ark, that has
never been built.

HUBBLE TELESCOPE SHOWS GREEN GROWTH OF VEGETATION

Hubble Telescope  is picking up green and blue colors on Mars
particularly now that summer as started in the southern
hemisphere. The Hubble routinely photographs green patches on
Mars that I feel is vegetation or green algae or mold. The white
South Pole has been melting and sending water further north.
Photo thanks to NASA. . [Image]

MASSACHUSETTS - THE BLACK VOID CHANGED IT'S SHAPE.MARSTONS MILLS
- This is the second time in the past year that this incident
has happened. On September 25, 2003, at 10:20 PM, I was walking
my dogs, they started to pace and hide behind me, much like they
do when there is a storm w/lightning and thunder. Then almost
exactly as it happened before, the area above me turned pitch
black. I mean it was as if the sky had been painted over. The
area was huge from my vantage point and there were no stars, no
clouds, and no light of any kind. I could see a defined edge but
the sphape changed from oblong to kidney shape and then to a
distorted sphere of some kind. There was no noise of any kind,
and the black shape moved at a pretty slow pace. It covered very
little area in the 5 or so minutes that I could see it. I was
determined to get a picture of it and I walked over to my car
and grabbed the binocular/digital camera I bought myself a few
weeks ago to snap pictures of the birds around my yard. I
started snapping like mad and took at least 50 exposures. None
of them ended up loopking like anything except a shot of BLACK
and nothing else.

But tonight I saw it again and this time it hung there in the
sky for a good while. The creepy part of the whole thing was
that last time I only saw it for a few moments maybe 1/2 a
minute but this time not only did I see it on approach to where
it stopped, but I saw it leave as well. It just picked up speed
and within a few seconds it had risen into the night sky and I
could see stars taking the place of the object as it rose and
then it was gone out of site. It was awesome and I wish I knew
what the heckp it was and who the heck they were. Thanks to
Peter Davenport  [ res://C:PROGRAM FILESAMERICA ONLINE
9.0RESOURCE.DLL/www.ufocenter.com ]UFOCenter.comNEW YORK FLYING
TRIANGLE ONLY 40 FEET ALTITUDE

 CATSKILL AND COXSACKIE EXITS Ed Tou writes, =E2=C7oHe was driving
on the New York State Thruway and observed a triangular shaped
craft with red lights on Saturday, September 27 at 8:30 PM. It
hovered over the northbound side of the thruway. All cars
immediately sped up to 80-85mph to get a better view, so I know
others witnessed the craft. The object approached from the north
and was triangular in shape with 3 red lights at each point.  It
approached the lane I was in and hovered overhead about 40 feet
up.  The body of the object was gray/metallic and I had a clear
sense this craft was otherworldly.   SCHENECTADY -- This is a
second sighting for me.  Five of us previously witnessed a UFO
in 1995, and reported it to the local police who shrugged it
off.  The UFO was the size of two large airplanes but in a shape
like a stealth bomber.  The body was gray with many lights.  It
hovered over us and made absolutely no sound.  We stood in awe
and the object darted to the right and then a sharp left. Within
seconds it was just a dot of light in the sky and then it
vanished. Thanks to Ed Tou


FORT EDWARD A Father and daughter were walking in from the barn
and the Father said, "Look how clear the sky is and to look at
all the stars and the numerous aircraft." He mentioned that he
hadn't seen this many planes in the sky at once. Then, in the
sky above our house was a long object, very bright, and moving
slowly. It was a flying cylinder. FLORAL PARK -- A medical
professional saw a spherical object intersecting a jet contrail
on September 24, 2003, at 6 PM.  The jet aircraft was flying
over my yard at about 30,000 feet in a northeast direction. The
witness says, =E2=C7=FFI was watching contrails when I noticed a
spherical silvery object-intersecting the contrail.  The object
then slowly disappeared like it was ascending [ res://C:PROGRAM
FILESAMERICA ONLINE 9.0RESOURCE.DLL/www.ufocenter.com
]UFOCenter.com NEW JERSEY PHOTOS OF UFO


HUDSON RIVER I received a phone call from a 60 year-old
electrician who was walking near the river on September 17,
2003, at about 6:30 PM, when he noticed the crossing contrail of
a F-16 military jet.  A larger cylinder without wings followed
the jet. He was looking closely at the silver cylinder that
changed to a charcoal color, then to black, and then suddenly
disappeared. After it disappeared, a second tan cylinder
appeared that was about the size of a commercial airliner.
Neither of the cylinders was followed by contrails, while the
military jet and other air traffic were leaving contrails.
  MILLVILLE On September 13, 2003, the observer was just taking
random pictures of the sky at 2:15 PM, for five minutes and
found an unidentified object in the picture, when viewing them
on the computer. The camera is a Pentax Optio 230 2.3 MegaPixel.
The pictures before and after do not have the object so it was
there only momentarily.  It may have been just zipping by, since
the photographer never actually saw the object.  Again on
September 16, 2003, at 12:30 PM, and even better picture was
taken. The photo taken on the 13th of Sept at first glance just
looks like a bird but when the photo was blown up 3 or 4 clicks
it became questionable. Because the object is at a level where
at the angle I was shooting from put it in the center of a long
white cloud behind it, it is very hard to get a defining line
for the top surface but under the object, the dark part, is
hanging down like jelly fish tendrils. The top surface is shiny,
reflecting light, defining line for the surface seems to be
flooded out. The photo on Sept 16 is different in that there
were no clouds in the sky.  The sun was almost directly overhead
behind me slightly to the left or western sky.  I was taking
random pictures into the northeastern sky, which appeared a very
dark blue azure so the objects lines of definition can be made
out when blown up even just slightly. I printed a normal size
picture and looked at it with a magnifying glass and was able to
clearly see that this is not anything I can identify. There
appears to be a clear or light bluish trail or emission on the
left side of the object. I need someone with better equipment
and knowledge of various sightings to take a look to verpify if
this is something that others have gotten pictures of and
anything you can tell me because I am very curious about these
things.   Thanks to WUFOD-I.2-844-NJ

 SOUTH CAROLINA -  FREQUENT SIGHTINGSMYRTLE BEACH AREA - Peter Davenport=
 reports, "There have been 18 reported
UFO sightings in the Myrtle Beach area since 1995.  Seven of those
sightings occurred the summer of 2003, as follows:

SEPT. 10 | A circle-shaped object with bright red lights appeared off the
coast of North Myrtle Beach at about 6:30 p.m. In a 45-minute period,
extremely bright red lights would appear in different places, last for
about
five seconds, then disappear. There were about eight sightings in 45
minutes.SEPT. 10 | A pair of circle-shaped objects with orange/red lights=
 were
spotted off the coast of Myrtle Beach at about 8:30 p.m. The lights flashed
on and off for several seconds before disappearing.

SEPT. 9 | Four orange lights, visible for about 10 seconds, were spotted
over Myrtle Beach at about 10 p.m. The lights were configured in a way that
they appeared to be the headlights of a car.SEPT. 9 | A sphere-shaped object=
 described as yellow or orange in color
appeared off the coast of Myrtle Beach at about 11:30 p.m. The sphere was
visible for about 10 minutes before disappearing.

SEPT. 8 | Balls of bright orange light were reported in different parts of
the sky over the ocean in North Myrtle Beach at about 11 p.m. The person
filing the report said he and his wife have seen similar lights over the
ocean during three previous trips to North Myrtle Beach.AUG. 26 | Over a=
 two-hour period, bright orange lights were spotted off the
coast of Myrtle Beach at about 11 p.m. by a couple stargazing and observing
Mars. The lights were visible for a few seconds, and then disappeared
before
reappearing in different locations.

JUNE 24 | A circular object with three red lights was spotted over Conway
at
about 11 p.m. The object was visible for about four minutes before
disappearing. Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/
]UFOCenterFLORIDA CRAFT SHOOTS OFF AT INCREDIBLE SPEED

HOWEY John writes, =E2=C7oI have had multiple sightings this year in
Florida (2003).  These sightings occurred in Howey a small town, when I
saw a red object with blue surrounding lights.  Occasionally these
colored lights would have smaller white lights that would circle nearby
with great speed.  The larger objects would move at great speeds but with
less frequency.  They also moved in l-shaped patterns.  I usually observed
these objects in the eastern sky.  My wife and I have seen them fly
directly above our house. We also saw an intense bright light hovering
just one foot above the ground. I thought it was someone shining a bright
flashlight, but it's motion was very stable and was not held by
someone=E2=C7=D6s hand.  It just floated and reminded me of those decorative
white lights that people put along their sidewalks.  We saw the object in
a pasture. Thanks to: John [ mailto:johndavidwalden@yahoo.com
]johndavidwalden@yahoo.com WEST PALM BEACH - While driving north on A1A=
 towards Palm Beach I noticed
a craft that at first resembled a commercial airliner on September 18,
2993, at 1:30 PM. Upon noticing this, I saw it move slowly westward
towards PBIA and assumed it must be a plane. Then all of the sudden it
dropped around 500 feet straight down. I reached over to get my digital
camera on the seat and kept my eyes on it at all times. Just as I was
getting ready to take a picture of it, the craft shot off towards the west
at incredible speed.

Two hours later, they headed south to Lake Worth Pier to see the waves
from hurricane Isabelle and noticed the same craft in the southeastern sky
at around 3000 feet that gradually faded away. The strangest thing about
both encounters was the fact that it seemed to know it had been noticed
and sped away both times before I could get my camera ready.  The craft
was roughly the size of a commercial airliner in length, and was obviously
metallic.  It had no wings and had a smooth cigar shape. Thanks to Peter
Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenterMIAMI -- I was on my second=
 story balcony smoking a cigarette on September
26, 2003, at 4 PM looking up at a clear sky with a storm coming when a
massive object moved at a rapid pace. The witness got a great look at this
Indian arrowhead like object. The front part of the triangle had 4 rod
shaped glowing fluorescent lights in a wedge shape and 2 on the back
corners. The lights did not project. The center of this object looked
transparent as it passed. For 15 seconds it sped across the sky without a
sound. The pwitness said, =E2=C7oI held my hand up at arm's length and the
object was slightly larger than my hand and was massive in size.  It was
flying at low altitude and when it reached the storm to my right, it flew
above the storm out of my view."  Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.nationalufocenter.com/ ]http://www.nationalufocenter.com/[
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

 KENTUCKY - VANILLA STAR-LIKE LIGHT DESCENDS OVER YARD.CORBIN The observer=
 was out on the deck star gazing around 9 PM on
September 17, 2003, when a beautiful bright vanilla star about the same
size and color as Mars appeared very close overhead and started to
smoothly descend.  It was a steady light, moving at a controlled
deliberate speed. It came in so close to the yard it was level with the
high treetops. Although at first I was mesmerized by it's beauty, the
closer it got to me, I became terrified, and ran inside.
It looked like a bright star with a hard, almost diamond-like brilliant
center surrounded by a softer glow of the same color. In addition, at the
risk of sounding absolutely bonkers, the reason why I got so frightened
was, I felt like it would have come right down to me, if I hadn't gotten
out of the way. [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

 OHIO - 'MONSTER' OBJECT SAID TO ROAM SKIES GAHANNA - Kenny Young reports=
 that on September 22, 2003, - in a suburb of
Columbus a 32-year old father, called to report sighting a massive black
'thing' shaped like a disc,=E2=C7=D8 His 31-year old wife, his 13-year old
daughter and 9-year old son all agree the object was something strange.
The four were driving north on Beaverbrook Road around 7:30 p.m. as dusk
was setting in. The disc-shaped object in front of their car and slowly
heading west almost seemed to float silently.    "This thing was so large
you could have put three or four 747 jetliners inside of this thing," the
witness alleged. I kept trying to see wings," he said. "But there weren't
any. The object looked like it was just floating, really low, just above
treetops."    The witness discounts any possibility that the object was a"
blimp.  There were lights around the object. The daughter thought they
were orange while the wife said there were multiple colored lights.    The
lights that were surrounding the disc-shaped object were non-flashing,
according to the witness, but more or less changed color "in unison."
"What was very strange was when the lights went out and the object went"
totally black," the witness said.    They tried to follow the soundless
object in his car, when it flew  over the high school.  They did not see
any people or traffic.  "It was just so huge, I still can't believe it,"
the claimant asserts. "At one point it blocked out the sun and we were in
its shadow."    "It was so low that the trees were blocking it, it seemed
like it took forever for the object to pass by because it was so slow

OHIO INVESTIGATION -  The Gahanna police department was contacted at
614-471-8080 and the dispatcher taking the call said that she was not on
duty yesterday and that there was no logbook available for her to check,
but that Officer Jenkinson was the dispatcher on duty at the time. She was
not familiar with any reports, however.    COMMENT    The witness said
that his daughter and son have drawn sketches of the object and that their
drawings were very similar. He said that he would hook up his scanner and
try to get the sketches to me through E-mail. The witness sounded cogent
and sincere. Clearly, this is an amazing sighting report to take; the
sheer size of this object is absolutely phenomenal. The witness, who
characterized this object as a "monster" due to its immense size, seemed
to be clear thinking and certain this could not have been pa blimp or
other explainable object. In a case such as this, it is reasonable to
assume there were other witnesses to the event. As an investigator taking
this report, I acknowledge that it is an incredible account to relate but
I choose to believe the witness in his sincerity.   Thanks to KENNY YOUNG
ufo@fuse.net  9-24-3  Bill Hamilton  Executive Director  Skywatch
International, Inc. [ http://www.skywatch/ ]http://www.skywatch-watch.org

MICHIGAN - LARGE SLOW MOVING OBJECTANN ARBOR/ YPSILANTI The witness had just=
 dropped his girlfriend off
at work on September 24, 2003, at 11:30 AM, and was driving east and just
after crossing Carpenter road, saw a large blimp, but with a closer look,
it had corners along the edges. It was dark  and as long as a quarter held
at arm=E2=C7=D6s length.  It was a mile away and roughly rectangular, being
maybe four times longer than it was tall. Its outline had corners and it
seemed a bit too large and skinny. The witness states, =E2=C7oAs I got=
 closer,
it seemed to become more occluded by the trees so I decided to turn south
on Hewitt Road.  I am not sure what it was. It was too slow and too big to
be an airplane, and its shape didn't seem right to be a blimp. [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

WISCONSIN FLASHING STRANGE LIGHTSWESTFIELD --  My husband went out to the=
 upper deck to smoke on September
18, 2003, at 9:45 PM. He shouted, "You're not going to believe this." I
looked up and saw these flashing lights: red, green, yellow, orange,
blue...flashing!! We watched them through the telescope and binoculars.
They didn't seem to move, except up and down. The next night there were
two of them with bright colors and flashing. I called the air to ground
missile range the next day to see if they were doing anything and they
said they don't have panything like that.

http://www.ultimatetopsites.com/bin/topsite.cgi?joesufos&cat=3Dcoolsites&ID=
=3D72
]http://www.ultimatetopsites.com/bin/topsite.cgi?joesufos&cat=3Dcoolsites&ID=
=3D72

 LOUISIANA - A TWENTY MINUTE FLYING TRIANGLEMANDEVILLE The observer looked=
 out his window on September 12, 2003,
at 2:13 AM, and was looking closely at Mars and noticed another light for
a few seconds that became a triangular shape with three red lights.  Each
light was on at pointed angles.  The witness got his binoculars and saw
the object hovered had an unusual metal type appearance. The lights and
shape were very distinctive.  I felt a chill up my spine and a frightened
feeling fell over me... Almost doom like yet excited that this maybe a
UFO. I was afraid and felt like something was reading my mind and then an
image crossed in it and I sensed and could see through my mind's eye an
image and also a sound of something near. I froze for a moment and then a
sudden heat came over me and then the object in the sky was gone. I was
stunned yet an overwhelming calm came over me and I felt safe.[
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

 TEXAS =E2=C7"FLYING TRIANGLE, MOVING NORTH FRISCO - On September 27, 2003,=
 at 11:15 PM, a couple saw a flying
triangle-shaped UFO flying in a southerly direction just west of TX. There
was no sound coming from it at all and it did not seem to be moving very
fast, but fast enough to be gone when I tried to find our camcorder. It
had lights that just seemed to glow, not beam like a normal aircraft.
There were 10 or 12 lights on this object.  This was a UFO. I spent time
in the navy working on aircraft on the flight deck of the USS Eisenhower
and have seen planes flying in formation at night, and this was definitely
not normal aircraft.[ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

OKLAHOMA - SILVER ORB FOLLOWED BY TWO CYLINDER CRAFT.HUGO - On September 16,=
 2003, about 3 PM, a married couple was driving
back from Hugo to home and spotted a silver orb or globe shaped object,
perfectly round. We watched for about 3-4 minutes and the orb (very large)
then turned from bright silver to dull gray and vanished. It was flying
about 5,000 feet or higher. We turned onto a county road off the highway
and then spotted two light brown or tan cylinder objects with blunt ends,
about the size of a 757 jet. They were drifting SW about 700 feet
altitudep, perfectly silent, and went over the horizon out of sight. This
was on a day with the sky mostly clear with a few patchy clouds and slight
wind from the north. We heard no sound on cylinders. The cylinders drifted
away from us to SW and did not change color but drifted silently out of
sight. This all happened in the length of a few minutes. First sighting of
the bright, silver orb or globe high up to the west of town and then
almost immediately thereafter, sighting the two light brown or tan large
cylindeprs drifting silently to SW of town. Both my wife and I saw the
same thing. She stayed in car and I got out in the road and watched. My
wife made drawings of the objects we saw.  Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

COLORADO - PERFECT PARALLELOGRAM WITH DARK SPLOTCHES PIKES PEAK -- Around=
 9:30 PM on September 18, 2003, the witness spotted a
very bright parallelogram yellowish glow, that was either moving very
slowly or nearly stationary. The witness says, =E2=C7oI brought out my field
glasses but could not make out any other lights; in fact, there seemed to
be dark splotches scattered on it (not symmetrical, just random).=E2=C7=D8
Oddly, I could not really get it into focus. It was shimmering, although I
could focus on the visitor=E2=C7=D6s center (sharper but much smaller) at=
 the
top pof Pikes Peak fairly easily. It was quite large in comparison to the
visitor=E2=C7=D6s center so it seems I should have been able to see more=
 detail.
Trying to use my videocam and my digital still camera proved fruitless...I
couldn't even see it in the viewfinders.
It was visible for two hours and appeared to move only slightly from right
to left; at one point it was partly obscured by trees which is how I could
detect the motion. It did not move up or down, just slowly side to side.
It was an absolutely perfect parallelogram (I even looked up a photo of a
parallelogram just to make sure). I made my husband come out and look; he
saw it but kind of shrugged it off even though he had no explanation for
it. It was five times larger than the visitor=E2=C7=D6s center.  Thanks to=
 Peter
Davenport  http://www.ufocenter.com/ UFOCenter

CALIFORNIA - WOBBLING SAUCER-SHAPED OBJECT  OAK VIEW -- At about 5:30 PM on=
 September 21, 2003, the wife saw a light
glinting off an object in the sky above Nordhoff Peak. The husband got his
7x50 binoculars and saw a clearly visible object above the mountains near
Ojai. It was saucer shaped, convex on both sides, and had an aspect ratio
of about 1:6. The witness states, =E2=C7oI watched it for several seconds,
during which it wobbled at a rate of one cycle per three seconds and
drifted toward the east. I said that it was a flying saucer, and handed
myp wife the binoculars. She watched it for several seconds, and handed
the binoculars back to me as she ran to telephone a friend who could
possibly corroborate our sighting. The friend was unable to see the object
from their point of view, however. I continued to watch the object as it
drifted down and toward the east. As it dropped below the horizon, I could
see that it was clearly on the near side of the mountain ridge. Meanwhile,
my wife had found a neighbor who, unfortunately, arrived too late. We
neverp saw any unnatural light or sound come from the object. It never
exhibited any non-ballistic motion. We called the police, hoping that
someone else had seen and reported it, but with no luck.  Thanks to Peter
Davenport  http://www.ufocenter.com/ UFOCenter

 CANADA STRANGE OBJECT HOVERING LAKES DISTRICT - From Decker Lake to=
 Tchesinkut Lake, reports have been
coming in about a strange object hovering in the skies on September 20,
2003. "At first I didn't think it was anything because it just looked like"
a big plane to me, like a 747 or something. Then about an hour later my
buddy called and he was terrified - he couldn't  talk because it went
right over his house. It was kind of doing switch backs and stuff. He said
it was a big triangle, not a plane," said Cherise Lacey, a resident on
West Palling Rd., and one of three eye witnesses contacted by LD News.
Becky Weimer, who lives on Fourth Ave., saw the strange object about a
half-hour later. She said, "I was kind of watching it, and I thought maybe
it was stars or maybe a satellite or something. Then a whole bunch of
flashes started going off around it, kind of like camerpa flashes when you
see them from a distance. They were just going off randomly all around.
Both the RCMP, and air traffic officials at the Smithers airport,
reported nothing unusual on the night of the sightings."  Thanks to Brian
Vike  http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html CANADA HBCC

HAWAII - SPHERE FLICKERED BETWEEN WHITE AND RED.HONOLULU A couple was flying=
 from Hawaii to Phoenix on September 17,
2003, at 11:30 PM. And as their plane leveled off, they saw a bright star,
possibly Mars, as it would flicker between white and red. About two
minutes passed and I looked outside the window again and saw the same star
at the same distance. I put on my glasses to see if another plane was also
flying in the same direction as it seemed to be keeping the same pace with
our plane. At that time the pilot had put on the seat belt light. I
dipdn't know why as there was no turbulence at this time. I couldn't quite
make out whether it was another plane or a star. It was ahead and to the
left of the plane at eye level. A few more minutes passed and suddenly the
object made a sharp right turn as though it was about to fly in front of
our plane. Our plane continued to fly straight and level. The unidentified
light flew with us for five minutes before we lost sight of it. Thanks to
Peter Davenport. [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOCenter

NEPAL NEW SUBSCRIBER IN NEPALLALITPUR -- I'm Rista Rai, From Nepal a very=
 small country on the world
map. I'm interested to know more about Unidentified Flying Objects. When I
was in 10th standard (in 1996), there was a very short chapter regarding
UFOs and from that day onwards I have been eagerly searching for materials
regarding this Topic and fortunately I came across your web site, which
gave many answers to my questions.  I collect interesting information, so
can you send me your weekly files, so that I can make my collection more
rich and valuable?  Actually I'm thinking to publish a book as an
Introduction (not more then 250 pages) regarding this topic.   Well, my
intention is not to earn money but to make people aware of UFOs.  I work
in the Human Right office, so you can have faith in me.    Thanks to
Rista Rai, South Asia Forum for Human Rights  Nepal
sumkabungs143@yahoo.com  or south@safhr.org    Filer's Files now read in
62 countries.

AUSTRALIA - RECTANGULAR UFO SEEN TWICE QUEENSLAND -  On Tuesday, September=
 9, 2003, at 8:40 p.m., a woman
named "Louise said she had seen a UFO on her way home from shopping while"
driving on the Brisbane Valley highway" in Borallon, near Lowood,
Queensland.
      "Louise said the object was enormous.  It had a black base and"
covered the entire road.  It was a box-shaped UFO with a searchlight in
front and red lights down the
sides."   Louise's twin sister, Tracy, "rang her to say, 'Sis, you're not
going to believe this, but I saw a UFO on my way home from work.'"
 Tracy's sighting took place at 8:30 p.m. on Tuesday, September 16, 2003.
"Tracy told Louise that she saw the UFO over the Borallon area near Lowood"
again." Thanks to John Hayes and Diane Harrison of the Australian UFO"
Research Network.


MAKE YOURSELF TOUGH TO KILL

Don Kile writes:  "I have had allergies or asthma like respiratory
problems that seem related to chemtrails/contrails or the general engine
burning pollution in our air.  I know that if I breathe car exhaust fumes,
or get near certain plants, I start sneezing, coughing, my back hurts, and
my eyes and my nose runs.  Your Isotonix [ http://www.filer.isotonix.com/
]OPC-3 is the only product that has cleared these problems.  I though
perhaps it was a fluke so I stopped taking it for a couple weeks.  My
symptoms appeared again and I remembered that for a dollar a day [
http://www.filer.isotonix.com/ ]OPC-3 was well worth it. After a couple
days I was breathing normal again.  Thanks for showing me this product
from the Health and Food Store.

SHOP AT THE MALL WITHOUT WALLS WITH 600 STORES

There is a store for your every special need, and you qualify as a
preferred customer by reading these files.  Register as a Preferred
Customer and pick the store of your choice for special discounts.  Search
for the Health and Nutrition Store or Isotonix OPC-3.  You can use Visa or
Master charge [ http://www.filer.unfranchise.com/ ]Filer Unfranchise.com

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL A HOME

Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs.  To
get a free copy of this report e-mail me at  Majorstar@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports
subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL.  A MUFON membership includes the Journal
and costs only $35.00 per year.  To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to
http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or
HQ@mufon.com.  Mention that I recommended you for membership.

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post the complete files on their Web Sites if they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared.  These reports and comments are not necessarily
the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint.  Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.
Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use
your name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story
confidential.  CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE
FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,
George









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:36:32 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:34:51 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story


David,

There are a few questions that I would like to ask you regarding
the ML307.

First, how do you know that the ML307 drawing issued by the Air
Force report is authentic?

Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the first
place. As Neil , Ed and myself have tried to explain to you many
times, this just won't work. The assembly instructions of the
target clearly state the following: "The target is examined to
see that the sides and corners are smooth and square. Any tears,
loose sticks, or loose seams are repaired with tape applied to
the paper surface rather than to the foil whenever possible".
Now do you think for one minute that they would design a target
so that you have to two foil sides glued together when they know
that using tape on the foil side is not a good idea? I think
not!

Third,  what would you say is be the height of the panel resting
on Dubois's knee?

Fourth, what part of the rawin target does the panel on Dubois's
knee represent with respect to the drawing issued by the Air
Force?

Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
for this?

There is an additional comment I would like to make regarding
the debate about Ramey's quote in Reuters. David you mentioned
that the quote came filtered through Major Kirton and therefore
may have been just an off the cuff remark. I think that your
missing a very imortant point in this quote. That fact that
Ramey indicated that none of the men on this base could identify
the debris as balloon target debris says that alot of people had
ample oppurtunity and sufficient time to examine the debris, so
it wasn't all left for Gen. Ramey to identify. And as Neil has
pointed out the Rawin Target was not an unknown device. They
were being shipped by the box load which consisted of 24 targets
per box. And they had their own military stock number. To assume
that out of all of the people who examined the debris not one of
them could identfy a Rawin Target would be stretching it, don't
you think?

I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.


Best Regards,

Andrew






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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                   Re: Filer's Files #41 -- 2003 - Lemire

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 05:28:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:43:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #41 -- 2003 - Lemire


>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:16:31 -0400
>Subject: Filer's Files #41 -- 2003

>MICHIGAN - LARGE SLOW MOVING OBJECT

>ANN ARBOR/ YPSILANTI -- The witness had just dropped his
>girlfriend off at work on September 24, 2003, at 11:30 AM, and
>was driving east and just after crossing Carpenter road, saw a
>large blimp, but with a closer look, it had corners along the
>edges. It was dark  and as long as a quarter held at arm's
>length.  It was a mile away and roughly rectangular, being maybe
>four times longer than it was tall. Its outline had corners and
>it seemed a bit too large and skinny. The witness states, "As I
>got closer, it seemed to become more occluded by the trees so I
>decided to turn south on Hewitt Road.  I am not sure what it
>was. It was too slow and too big to be an airplane, and its
>shape didn't seem right to be a blimp. UFOCenter




Mr. Filer,

In regards to the report below which was featured in your last
news letter.  This object WAS the Spirit of Goodyear Blimp.  I
looked into this case as the witness contacted Michigan MUFON as
well.  The blimp was in Ann Arbor for 3 days as part of the
National Air Tour in order to greet the vintage airplanes as
they arrived. As you can see here
http://www.nationalairtour.org/ the scheduled stop for the
airtour on September 24th at 11:30 a.m. was the Ypsilanti
Airport which was a short distance east of the witness, just as
he described.  I had this confirmed by Goodyear representatives
themselves.  As you can see here
http://www.goodyearblimp.com/b_goodyear.html the object
description also fits the bill for the blimp.

Todd Lemire
Michigan MUFON - http://mimufon.org
http://www.michiganufos.com






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                     Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:13:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:40:59 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais


>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: UFOupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:14:10 +0100
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <UFOupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:34:51 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:46:12 +0100
>>>To: UFOupdates@sympatico.ca
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>David, List,

>The Reuters extract also clearly pushes the thought that the
>debris has the appearance of balloon/target debris but
>_explicitly_ states that _no_ _one_ at FWAAF could identify it
>as such, and this statement is clearly attributed to Gen Ramey
>and though the release is issued by Maj Kirton, literal quotes,
>which they are in the release, wouldn't have been issued without
>authority of the source, Kirton would have been risking his
>position if he hadn't got Ramey's clearance to use the quote.


Neil, David and List,

How can you maintain that nobody could indentify the Rawin
target, when Irving Newton did so at once, in the office of
General Ramey? The earlier statement of Major Kirton is of no
help at all here since it was a sort of first draft of the
balloon story.

Another question: how can you think one minute that General
Ramey would have shown to the press real debris of a UFO,
whether you admit the Mogul story or the balloon cover up of a
UFO? Cannot you see how your absurd is your belief,  in both
cases?

Thank you to David Rudiak, for repeating courageously basic
facts. Anyone with common sense can see on the pictures balloon
and target debris.

Neil's discourse looks to me like a clever exercise in confusing
matters.


Gildas Bourdais






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                 Re: Technology Madness And Hope - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 03:36:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:49:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Madness And Hope - Goldstein


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:11:15 -0400
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Technology Madness And Hope


>Source: The Globe & Mail - Toronto

>http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031007.gtkapicoct7/BNStory/Te
chnology/?query=UFO

>Tuesday, Oct. 7, 2003

>Technology Madness And Hope

>By Jack Kapica
>Globe and Mail Update

>John Robert Colombo, one of our most valued writers and a
>prodigious collector of fascinating information, once boasted to
>me that his 1989 book Mysterious Canada contained the only
>picture in existence of an unidentified flying object that was
>in focus.

<snip>

>An invasion of "alien technology" has already happened. It's
>called Napster, Kazaa and other weird names (probably related to
>Klaatu). And how is the recording industry reacting to this
>arrival? With lawyers waving writs, suing kids and demanding
>tough laws.

>If that's the way the world greets new technology, we're all in
>trouble.

>I, for one, wish Halifax's ufologists the best of luck. We need
>a First Contact, and we need it now. The aliens and those who
>believe in them may bring us sanity along with new technology.


Hello Fellow Listerions,

I've gone back and forth on whether to post a reply to this post
because I didn't want to repeat the above author's mixup of UFOs
and music. Oh well, here goes:

To me this is a rather strange article. The author makes a
number of faulty analogies and assumptions. It is 2am Wednesday
and I finally have time to read through Tuesday's posts, so I
won't say much about the author's skewed perspective. But what
hit my raw nerve was when he dragged the music industry into his
stew and had the ass-umption to butt in with his one sided and
ill informed bias regarding illegally trading music and
copyright law. He then put that in his strange stew regarding
aliens and UFOs. What a strange brew he made.

He got my goat because before reading this post I finished up a
phone call from Universal Music in Germany regarding the music,
etc. of Miko and I that they have an interest in. We talked over
how the brand new merger of NBC with Vivendi - Universal will
enable new things to develop faster. I then had a good talk with
my music partner, Miko in Berlin, and things were looking good.

I then read the above post and the raw nerve felt like a tooth
pain. Two years ago she and I had four German branches of top
international major record companies interested in what we were
creating. We put a band together to appear at the German Echo
awards, their version of the Grammy awards, held in Berlin. We
were going to do a special showcase performance for all the top
music industry executives. But the day before when we were to
perform at the awards, the record company execs had their first
summit meeting. They were scared because they had suddenly lost
about 25% revenue from the past year, primarily due to illegal
bootlegging and pirating. Their first step was to cut costs by
stopping making new major deals. That meant no deal for us or
lots of other artists. We performed to great acclaim and decided
to go independent. That is going very well. Now Universal has an
interest.

This author, Jack Kapica, has no conception of the viewpoints of
the artists and others in the music industry. The issue of music
pirating and the rights of gifted artists to be able to succeed
with their gifts is a major problem, a very hot button these
days. I went into my history just to give you an example of how
there is a lot more to this issue than the slant of that author.
Please don't judge the issue from his rant. There are several
sides to this situation.

I had never heard of this alleged 12 year old girl prosecuted
for pirating. I would have to see if that claim is true. As far
as I am aware the RIAA is only going after those who pirate
thousands of songs every day.

In the US there are artists rights organisations such as BMI and
ASCAP who do collect license fees for copyrighted music played
in commercial situations. It ranges from movie and TV licensing
to radio play and even its recordings being played in commercial
facilities. They do this and enforce it to the benefit of the
copyright holder.

Keep your eyes to the sky and your ears to good music,


Josh







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   Oct > Oct 10

                         Spielberg has 'Nine Lives'

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 08:05:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:53:44 -0400
Subject: Spielberg has 'Nine Lives'


Source: Philippines Daily News, Philippines

http://you.inq7.net/showing/10092003/sho2-1-1009.htm

If you haven't seen Steven Spielberg's "Taken" sci-fi TV maxi-
series (ten 2-hour episodes that are worth every minute), then
do yourself a favor and watch it on cable or buy the DVD. Yeah,
I know you're probably sick of alien abductions and conspiracy
theories, but "Taken" is, ahem, out of this world.

Anyway, the success of that TV epic has prompted Spielberg to
announce another ambitious project for the Sci-Fi Channel called
"Nine Lives." No plot details yet, according to IGN.com, which
says that these are being guarded as closely as Area 51.

It's supposed to be "an epic story of love, death and beyond,"
according to the network press release. Thanks Mr. E.T., that
really narrows it down.

No word yet on the cast but "Nine Lives" will supposedly be
aired in 2005.

Joey G. Alarilla,
INQ7.net








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   Oct > Oct 10

                 Re: Technology Madness And Hope - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 03:36:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:49:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Madness And Hope - Goldstein


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:11:15 -0400
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Technology Madness And Hope


>Source: The Globe & Mail - Toronto

>http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031007.gtkapicoct7/BNStory/Te
chnology/?query=UFO

>Tuesday, Oct. 7, 2003

>Technology Madness And Hope

>By Jack Kapica
>Globe and Mail Update

>John Robert Colombo, one of our most valued writers and a
>prodigious collector of fascinating information, once boasted to
>me that his 1989 book Mysterious Canada contained the only
>picture in existence of an unidentified flying object that was
>in focus.

<snip>

>An invasion of "alien technology" has already happened. It's
>called Napster, Kazaa and other weird names (probably related to
>Klaatu). And how is the recording industry reacting to this
>arrival? With lawyers waving writs, suing kids and demanding
>tough laws.

>If that's the way the world greets new technology, we're all in
>trouble.

>I, for one, wish Halifax's ufologists the best of luck. We need
>a First Contact, and we need it now. The aliens and those who
>believe in them may bring us sanity along with new technology.


Hello Fellow Listerions,

I've gone back and forth on whether to post a reply to this post
because I didn't want to repeat the above author's mixup of UFOs
and music. Oh well, here goes:

To me this is a rather strange article. The author makes a
number of faulty analogies and assumptions. It is 2am Wednesday
and I finally have time to read through Tuesday's posts, so I
won't say much about the author's skewed perspective. But what
hit my raw nerve was when he dragged the music industry into his
stew and had the ass-umption to butt in with his one sided and
ill informed bias regarding illegally trading music and
copyright law. He then put that in his strange stew regarding
aliens and UFOs. What a strange brew he made.

He got my goat because before reading this post I finished up a
phone call from Universal Music in Germany regarding the music,
etc. of Miko and I that they have an interest in. We talked over
how the brand new merger of NBC with Vivendi - Universal will
enable new things to develop faster. I then had a good talk with
my music partner, Miko in Berlin, and things were looking good.

I then read the above post and the raw nerve felt like a tooth
pain. Two years ago she and I had four German branches of top
international major record companies interested in what we were
creating. We put a band together to appear at the German Echo
awards, their version of the Grammy awards, held in Berlin. We
were going to do a special showcase performance for all the top
music industry executives. But the day before when we were to
perform at the awards, the record company execs had their first
summit meeting. They were scared because they had suddenly lost
about 25% revenue from the past year, primarily due to illegal
bootlegging and pirating. Their first step was to cut costs by
stopping making new major deals. That meant no deal for us or
lots of other artists. We performed to great acclaim and decided
to go independent. That is going very well. Now Universal has an
interest.

This author, Jack Kapica, has no conception of the viewpoints of
the artists and others in the music industry. The issue of music
pirating and the rights of gifted artists to be able to succeed
with their gifts is a major problem, a very hot button these
days. I went into my history just to give you an example of how
there is a lot more to this issue than the slant of that author.
Please don't judge the issue from his rant. There are several
sides to this situation.

I had never heard of this alleged 12 year old girl prosecuted
for pirating. I would have to see if that claim is true. As far
as I am aware the RIAA is only going after those who pirate
thousands of songs every day.

In the US there are artists rights organisations such as BMI and
ASCAP who do collect license fees for copyrighted music played
in commercial situations. It ranges from movie and TV licensing
to radio play and even its recordings being played in commercial
facilities. They do this and enforce it to the benefit of the
copyright holder.

Keep your eyes to the sky and your ears to good music,


Josh







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   Oct > Oct 10

                     Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:13:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:40:59 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais


>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: UFOupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:14:10 +0100
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <UFOupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:34:51 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:46:12 +0100
>>>To: UFOupdates@sympatico.ca
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>David, List,

>The Reuters extract also clearly pushes the thought that the
>debris has the appearance of balloon/target debris but
>_explicitly_ states that _no_ _one_ at FWAAF could identify it
>as such, and this statement is clearly attributed to Gen Ramey
>and though the release is issued by Maj Kirton, literal quotes,
>which they are in the release, wouldn't have been issued without
>authority of the source, Kirton would have been risking his
>position if he hadn't got Ramey's clearance to use the quote.


Neil, David and List,

How can you maintain that nobody could indentify the Rawin
target, when Irving Newton did so at once, in the office of
General Ramey? The earlier statement of Major Kirton is of no
help at all here since it was a sort of first draft of the
balloon story.

Another question: how can you think one minute that General
Ramey would have shown to the press real debris of a UFO,
whether you admit the Mogul story or the balloon cover up of a
UFO? Cannot you see how your absurd is your belief,  in both
cases?

Thank you to David Rudiak, for repeating courageously basic
facts. Anyone with common sense can see on the pictures balloon
and target debris.

Neil's discourse looks to me like a clever exercise in confusing
matters.


Gildas Bourdais






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   Oct > Oct 10

                 Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:18:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:04:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Lehmberg


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:46:54 -0600
>Subject: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:06:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files - Stanford

>In a way you're correct. The reel to reel recording of the
>sheriffs department tape is in the public domain.

...And right there does it without question come to a grinding,
sliding, almost rolling halt.

>However, that
>recording was digitized, enhanced, restored and remastered by me
>and is significantly changed from its original format.

I would have said "rescued", "saved", or "resurrected"... but
that's just me. You have performed an _invaluable_ service. The
rewards due you are incalculable! Verily I say unto the
brythern! <g>

>I
>certainly do hold the copyright on the restored version along
>with Bill Jones.

...and well you should! This is without question, qualification,
or need for the most casual defense!

>Before you begin to think I make money doing restoration work on
>ufological recordings, you'd be way off base. Like John Velez
>mentioned, I give so much away free, I make Bill Gates look like
>Silas Marner.

Incredibly easy to do, actually, so no points there,
unfortunately, <g> but I definitely get your drift. The enormity
of your contribution is such that it will only be appreciated in
that acceleration to a future I am confident that you are going
to survive, perhaps even because of that contribution.

>
>Support my work or not.

Mmm, no. I think I'd rather support it. Any rational, sentient,
and far-seeing person should.

>I'll still be putting in the effort to
>preserve the recordings for future generations whether I make a
>buck or not.

Well - I'd hope you get a million dollar grant from someone
wanting to do something gainful, responsible, and substantive,
something for the inexorable future, or something far-
 reaching... and why not? You demonstrate every competence,
reliability, and with-it-ness! If not you, who?

>Damn near everything I've brought to the field (and
>it's a massive amount...I kid you not) has been given and shared
>freely to the field of Ufology.
>

...And keep it up to have you in -my- personal pantheon of minor
gods!

>Wendy Connors
>Faded Discs


You know? The irony here is that you make those discs
measurably less faded...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to Lehmberg@snowhill.com)
Splash page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
AlienViewGroup Splash Page: http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Radio Show Archives: Having... ah... *Technical* difficulties...






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   Oct > Oct 10

                              Kewanee Illinois

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:48:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:14:20 -0400
Subject: Kewanee Illinois



A very nice fellow contacted me, he asked if I wanted to hear
about a strange event which happened to him. Below is the report
written by him. An excellent job of documenting his experience.

He has granted me permission to post the story.

-----


Kewanee, Illinois
Date:  October 11, 1989
Time:  Approx: 9:00 p.m.

On the night of 11 October 1989 I left Kewanee, Illinois and was
driving home after a meeting. I was alone and driving west on IL
rt 81. At a few minutes after 9:00pm I was approx 4 mi west of
Kewanee on a section of rt 81 running north (near the
intersection of Tower rd.) On the right (east) is hills and
broken timber/pasture and on the left (west) are flat open
tilled farm fields. I would have been traveling north. I
suddenly noticed a red (red/orange) flashing light. At the time,
I thought an emergency vehicle or deputy sheriff had suddenly
come up behind me. This happened without warning and I thought
the vehicle had approached me, possibly with no headlights on,
or was so close I could not see the headlights.

Here, I should elaborate and mention that I had just recently
purchased a new (1989) Ford F150 pickup truck and had a
fiberglass "topper" installed that day. I was unfamiliar with
the somewhat obstructed field of view and the still new vehicle.
I had not been drinking or using any drugs. I do recall being
somewhat fatigued after a long and busy day. I slowed and moved
over to the shoulder of the road. As I came to a stop on the
shoulder I was still thinking I was being pulled over for some
reason. I then realized the red or red/orange light was
reflecting in the space between the back window of the truck and
the topper. I shut the engine off at this point thinking I had
some kind of electrical problem with some lights on the new and
unfamiliar truck topper. I shut the engine off and opened the
driver's door at about the same moment I realized the light was
also reflected on the hood of the truck.

I stepped out of the open drivers door to stand on the ground
and realized that a large glowing sphere was positioned almost
directly overhead. I estimated the object to be approx 50-70ft
above ground and approx 20-25ft diameter. It was smooth and
glassy appearing on its surface, which was most noticeable
between the brighter intensity pulses. I want to emphasize that
these "pulses" were not flashes as in on-off but were pulsations
of brighter-dimmer, never shutting off completely. I also
noticed a strong definite static field that increased in unison
with the pulses of brighter light. I could not visualize the
surface of the object when the light pulses were at peak
intensity. During the less intense/dim phase of the light pulses
the surface was clearly visible and totally featureless from my
point of view. The surface was very smooth and glass-like
transparent and within appeared a swirling, smoky or viscous
liquid type substance against the inner surface. From what was
visible to me, I would insist this object was a perfect globe or
sphere and emitted light from its entire outside surface.

Over the next 1-2 minutes the quality and duration of the
bright/dim light cycle changed to a longer bright and shorter
dim but the frequency of the light cycle seemed constant- it did
not pulse faster, just longer and brighter pulses with shorter
dim intervals until it approached constant bright "ON". I hope I
can make this clearly understood. I could feel the intensity of
the static field intensify also. I did not move from my position
next to the truck between the open door and cab. I had the
feeling that something was going to happen with the changes in
the light emissions and static field but did not know what to
expect.

When the light pulses became  a constant "ON" the object very
suddenly shot west with a departure so rapid that there was a
vacuum "POP". I can only describe it as being like a huge cork
violently pulled from a bottle. I was aware of no noise prior to
this moment. The object stopped very suddenly in the western sky
for a few seconds (3-5 miles away?) then seemed to change
directions approx 90 degrees to due north for a couple miles,
stopping suddenly again for only a moment then disappearing to
the western horizon.

My next recollection was the realization that I was sitting in
my parked truck in my back yard (approx 2 miles north of the
site described) with the truck pointing west and watching the
western sky where the object disappeared. This was not an area
where I would typically park. I walked into the house a few
minutes before 11:00pm so I was evidently in the truck for some
time. It was a very pleasant evening both temperature and
weather and I recall an overall feeling of "stunned amazement".
I do not recall ever feeling fear or apprehension. I realize
that some time is unaccounted for but I have attributed that to
some kind of emotional shock. I have remained in excellent
health.

I would like to thank the witness for his report. Personal
information is withheld.


Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm








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   Oct > Oct 10

                          Secrecy News -- 10/09/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:09:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:18:03 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/09/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 87
October 9, 2003


**      SECRECY ORDERS IMPOSED ON PRIVATE INVENTORS RISE
**      NAS PANEL PROPOSES REVIEW OF BIOTECH RESEARCH
**      ENERGY TASK FORCE SECRECY CASE GOES TO SUPREME COURT
**      WHITE HOUSE MEMOS ON LEAK INVESTIGATION


SECRECY ORDERS IMPOSED ON PRIVATE INVENTORS RISE

Over the past year, 133 secrecy orders were imposed on new
patent applications, limiting or preventing their disclosure on
grounds that they could be "detrimental to the national
security." More than half of the new orders affected private
inventors who developed their inventions without government
funding or support.

The legal authority for patent secrecy orders derives from the
Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, which provides for government
review of patent applications related to a wide range of
military technologies, and authorizes the government to regulate
or prevent their disclosure.

At the end of fiscal year 2003, there were a total of 4,838
secrecy orders still in effect, according to statistics released
this week by the Patent and Trademark Office under the Freedom
of Information Act.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html

The Invention Secrecy Act and the Atomic Energy Act are the only
statutes that assert a government right to prevent the
publication of privately-generated information, a provision that
appears to be at odds with the First Amendment to the U.S.
Constitution.

Secrecy orders imposed on such private inventors are termed
"John Doe" orders. Last year, an unusually large 75 of the 133
new secrecy orders were John Doe orders. The nature of these
secret inventions could not, of course, be ascertained.

Further information on the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951,
including the declassified 1971 edition of the "patent security
category review list" (newly posted) which defines the
technology areas subject to patent secrecy, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/index.html


NAS PANEL PROPOSES REVIEW OF BIOTECH RESEARCH

There are certain areas of research in the biological sciences
that are so extraordinarily dangerous as to justify the
establishment of a new mechanism for review and approval of
experimentation and publication in those areas, a panel of the
National Academy of Sciences (NAS) reported on October 8.

"The potential threat from the misuse of current and future
biological research is a challenge to which policymakers and the
scientific community must respond," the Panel report stated.

This is an exceptionally delicate and controversial matter
because it impinges on the openness that ideally characterizes
the scientific process and pits it against vague but growing
security concerns.

It is also a difficult policy problem for several reasons: There
is no clear distinction between the techniques of proscribed
biological weapons research and the methods of ordinary life
science research. Imposing excessive or indiscriminate security
could therefore stifle scientific initiative to the detriment of
medical and biodefense research. Moreover, given the
international character of the scientific enterprise, controls
imposed in any single nation, even the United States, will be
futile by themselves.

The NAS panel managed to navigate a path through these
complications.

First, it limited the problem. The panel identified seven
specific classes of experiments that it said warranted review,
including those that would demonstrate how to render a vaccine
ineffective, those that would enhance the virulence or
transmissibility of a pathogen, and those that would enable the
evasion of diagnostic techniques.

The NAS then proposed a layered review process, but one
constituted by scientists themselves, who it says are best
equipped to evaluate the hazards (and benefits) of proposed
research. The review process would be "based on the voluntary
self-governance of the scientific community rather than formal
regulation by government."

And the panel called for efforts to establish an international
consensus on the conduct of such research.

Not least, the Panel pointed out: "Given the increased
investments in biodefense research in the United States, it is
imperative that the United States conduct its legitimate
defensive activities in an open and transparent manner."

The full text of the Panel report, "Biotechnology Research in an
Age of Terrorism: Confronting the Dual Use Dilemma," may be
found here:

http://books.nap.edu/html/biotechnology_research/0309089778.pdf


ENERGY TASK FORCE SECRECY CASE GOES TO SUPREME COURT

The Bush Administration is asking the Supreme Court to intervene
in the continuing dispute over whether the Vice President must
disclose records of his meetings with non-governmental advisors
in the course of the 2001 Energy Task Force.

The case, initiated by Judicial Watch and the Sierra Club,
concerns the parameters of the Federal Advisory Committee Act, a
longstanding open government statute.

Applying the Act to the Vice President's Energy Task Force is an
intolerable intrusion on executive branch procedure, the
government claims, and "would open the way for judicial
supervision of internal Executive Branch deliberations." The
requesters argue that disclosure is an essential and legally
required act of government accountability.

A copy of the government's petition to the Supreme Court, filed
September 30, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/cheney0903.pdf


WHITE HOUSE MEMOS ON LEAK INVESTIGATION

The White House Counsel and Chief of Staff sent four memoranda
to all White House employees between September 30 and October 7
instructing them to preserve materials related to the
unauthorized disclosure of an undercover CIA officer's identity.

A copy of these memoranda, released by the White House press
office, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/leakmemos.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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              Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:02:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:57:57 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested - Stanford


>From: Edward Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:18:50 -0400
>>Subject: Re: AA Crash Site Assistance Requested

>Ray, EBK, List,

>As listers may recall, I came to you several months ago and
>asked if there were folks who might like to examine the
>mysterious material that my brother and I found at what we
>believed to be the cameraman's crash site. The cameraman is the
>person who sold the alien autopsy footage to Ray Santilli.

>In 1995 when the alien autopsy was more immediate and pregnant
>with possibility, several researchers including Michael
>Hesseman, Glenn Campbell, and Steve Kaeser decided to try to
>find the crash site described by the cameraman.

>They communicated with the cameraman via Ray Santilli and
>obtained a set of directions to the site. The directions were
>very specific on how to get to the general area but not specific
>as to exactly where the site was located. The site they finally
>identified didn't exactly match the description given by the
>cameraman although several features were close to the mark.
>Unfortunately, they were two miles short of their goal. Had they
>traveled a little further down the arroyo they were searching,
>they would have come to the site my brother and I found and the
>whole AA story might have had a different reception.

>By the time my brother and I began searching for the site, two
>years ago, the Alien Autopsy had been relegated to either the
>gray basket or the wastebasket of most respectable ufologists;
>we knew that anything we found would be suspect unless we found
>tangible proof.

<snip>

And they never found any proof, tangible or otherwise -- if
there is still anyone on this list taken with Ed's fantasy
enough to believe that finding some Cristobalite is proof of the
crash of an alien spaceship, please re-read my most recent
posting on the subject carefully.

To you good people who wrote and warned me not to waste my time
with arguing with Ed Gehrman, thanks.  You were right.  He has a
hopeless case of alienitis.  :)

>We'll be there on October 24th. Anyone care to join us?

And if you'd care to join them, I have a nice island just east
of New Jersey to sell you.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                     BUFORA 40th Anniversary Conference

From: Judith Jaafar - BUFORA <judy@gaia66.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 02:21:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:05:20 -0400
Subject: BUFORA 40th Anniversary Conference


40 Years of Scientific Research into UFOs and Other Paranormal
Phenomena sponsored by BUFORA

Saturday 25 October, 2003
University of Westminster
Harrow
HA1 3TP
UK

Derrel Sims (interactive workshop)
Jenny Randles
John Spencer
Lionel Beer
Andy Roberts
Matthew Hurley (book signing)

For information visit www.bufora.org.uk or email
judy@gaia66.freeserve.co.uk


Judy Jaafar
BUFORA chair







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   Oct > Oct 10

                             Andros Island Case?

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:09:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:07:39 -0400
Subject: Andros Island Case?


Hi All,

Does anyone have any data or information about a UFO filmed over
Andros Island in the Bahamas?

I'm trying to find out if the photographer is still alive.


Regards,

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center












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                Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:21:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:22:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:25:34 EDT
>Subject: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>A while back I recall a study that focused on the effect of
>extreme cold on light.

>My question is if extreme cold affects light and it's
>particle/wave flow, does the cold of space do so as well?

>If that's the case, does the light from distant stars reach us
>slower and is it calculated by our scientists when determining
>distance and age of these bodies?

Hello Greg:

If this article or one much like it is online, I would like to
see the URL. There are probably caveats in any scientific
article about the speed of light, and those cannot be passed
over.

For example, light travels slower thru transparent solids and
liquids or lenses would not work, and spear fishermen on a
riverbank would not have to aim above the fish.

The standard value for c assumes 'free space', i.e. a vacuum,
which in theory has no temperature at all. Not high, not low,
the "cold of interstellar space" is a fiction.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                    How Space Activities Impact Society?

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:23:02 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: How Space Activities Impact Society?


List, Some of you may be able to help in this exercise: see
www.Yahoo.com, and click on Space, Society, and Six Degrees of
Kevin Bacon.


Diana Cammack







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                  Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:27:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:32:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Goldstein


>From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:25:15 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions


>In our book 'Die Antwort des Orion'('Orion's Answer') the whole
>chapter 28 is discussing all aspects and facts regarding 'Nibiru'.

>Finally, I would like to stress that Sitchin's book have been an
>enlightment for me and I like all of his books very much.

>Though...I think I can prove him wrong with some of his
>conclusions that the dark spot in the pictures of the probe
>Phobos II in its final transmissions is an UFO.


Hello Joachim,

Thanks for the information regarding Alpha Centauri. I have not
read your book. Have you ever consulted with Mesopatamian
scholars in Germany regarding Sitchin's claims?

Fellow Listerions, I hope we do not start a trend of political
campaign messages on our posts as the election looms near. We
have varied views about the variety of candidates, so there is
no point other than sadomasochism to portray them here. Joachim,
for example, I can assure you that the vast majority of
Americans feel very different than you regarding the candidacy
of Dennis Kucinich.

I'm Glad to have come back to California from Berlin to enjoy
the great new Arnie movie as it happens, a new adventure. But I
Vill Be Baack! <g>

Josh







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   Oct > Oct 10

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 6:39:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:30:18 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Aldrich


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <UFOupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:13:23 +0200
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>To: UFOupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:14:10 +0100
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>>The Reuters extract also clearly pushes the thought that the
>>debris has the appearance of balloon/target debris but
>>_explicitly_ states that _no_one_ at FWAAF could identify it
>>as such, and this statement is clearly attributed to Gen Ramey
>>and though the release is issued by Maj Kirton, literal quotes,
>>which they are in the release, wouldn't have been issued without
>>authority of the source, Kirton would have been risking his
>>position if he hadn't got Ramey's clearance to use the quote.

>How can you maintain that nobody could indentify the Rawin
>target, when Irving Newton did so at once, in the office of
>General Ramey? The earlier statement of Major Kirton is of no
>help at all here since it was a sort of first draft of the
>balloon story.

>Another question: how can you think one minute that General
>Ramey would have shown to the press real debris of a UFO,
>whether you admit the Mogul story or the balloon cover up of a
>UFO? Cannot you see how your absurd is your belief, in both
>cases?

>Thank you to David Rudiak, for repeating courageously basic
>facts. Anyone with common sense can see on the pictures balloon
>and target debris.

>Neil's discourse looks to me like a clever exercise in confusing
>matters.


Good Grief! Anyone heard of journalistic license? This is where
many ufologists get trapped. A lot of this stuff goes through
the journalistic meat grinder, and then is taken by some here as
truth.

The statement about no one being able to identify a Rawin target
is probably a canard. A way for General Ramey to introduce
Newton to the reporters. Geez!

Does everyone read newspaper literally? Come on! This was a
presentation to the press, there was at least some prior
preparation. Why is Newton there waiting in the wings?

In my experience in meteorology, 16 years, in various locations,
releasing thousands of balloons under all kinds of weather
conditions, and using diverse instruments, there are many in the
Field Artillery who had never seen a meteorological section,
even though the artillery was the prime consumer of our met
data. Soldiers would continually find our radiosondes all over
the range, and even though our instruments carried instructions
which said dispose of the item, and would go on a big hunt to
find us and bring the thing back to us. Most were unaware of
what a met section looked like and had never seen a radiosonde
before.

The same would be true for most of the most of the guys at an
Air Force headquarters.

Unfortunately, much that has been written here on balloons, and
rawin target, to be most generous, is incorrect.

Major Kitron was an intelligence officer, of course, he would
know about weather data and it sources!

"Kirton would have been risking his position if he hadn't got
Ramey's clearance to use the quote." Oh, please! Have you guys
been in the military? Kitron was duty officer on that date just
informally talking to reporters after being up all night.n
Apparently only the Fort Worth newspapers and Reuters carried
some of what he said. These guys were probably the early birds
who got there before Kirton went off duty.




Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135






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                        Re: Pascagoula Tape - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:34:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:12:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Pascagoula Tape - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:43:10 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pascagoula Audio Files


Ray, et. al,

Sorry to burst your bubble, Ray and don't worry, I don't shoot
messengers. It's just that most messengers are not experts when
they bring the message in the form of an opinion.

For what it is worth I do have access and have consulted with a
copyright attorney over the last several years. My restored
version is validly copyrighted. Bill and I jointly own it.
However, anyone and their five-legged brother can take the
public domain recording and do their own version of clean-up and
restoration, but they cannot take my version and claim it as
their own.

You are right about doing such with an Elvis (isn't he in a vat
at WPAFB?) recording, but a public domain recording that is
restored, edited, re-mastered, etc., is under the copyright
laws, a new version and thus copyrightable. There can be many
such restorations, but analysis would show that it would be a
fluke that the restoration process used by others would be
identical... remember, digitization allow greater depth of
markings of a recordings footprint. In other words, another
person would have to spend years trying to duplicate my
restoration factors and in the seqence it was done. You would
stand greater odds of winning the Powerball Lottery twice in a
row.

So, I appreciate everyone's interest and suggestions, but I've
done my homework, as the body of my work through the years has
proven over and over. Bill and I own the restored version I made
and that's indisputable, except by copyright attorneys who might
want to nitpick (much like people tend to do on Updates). But,
final end result would be that Bill and I own the copyright to
my version.

Anyone can do what I'm doing, but it will cost you thousands of
dollars, thousands of hours of sheer boredom, thousands of
headaches and thousands of hours on the learning curve. If it
was easy, you'd all be doing it, but you'll have to trust me...
it isn't the easiest thing to do or accomplish. If anyone on the
list wants to give it a try, I'll supply an original recording
that has been laying in a wet basement for 40 years, stretched
and warped, with half  the magnetic particles on the tape gone,
breaks every six inches and a copy of the restored version I've
done. You can try to duplicate the process. But, I'll bet a
dollar to a donut up front, that those who try will end up
frustrated, broke or both.

Bottom line is this... unless List members are copyright
attornies (and like in any profession there are good ones,
mediocre ones and clueless types), the matter cannot be debated
with any reasonable legitimacy on the UFO UpDates list.

On to a another comment you've made regarding the "...  go for
the gusto," means that I personally believe people have the
right to study, research and discuss other topics in the Fortean
area and if that's what you enjoyed way back when, that's fine.
All I'm saying is that once a person blends the other paranormal
areas with Ufology, it muddies the water and you might be
saddled with baggage that you'll get tired of carrying around.
As an example, if a person did great investigation or research
in the past, then began doing the UFO snipe hunt with
flashlights (vis a vis Greer), returns to Ufology, then there is
a credibility factor that cannot be regained to previous levels
no matter how hard a person attempts to regain it. That's what
I'm saying.

So, from this end of the world, will be my last comments on
copyright issues and my work. I have no time for hair splitting,
nit-picking, speculation, etc. I've work to do before this old
biddy croaks. However, you should hear my version of Welles,
"War of the Worlds." We get it done in 18 minutes, instead of
60. <G> Be sure to listen in to EBK's "Strange Days... Indeed!"
You get tons of _free_ audio-clips whenever I'm scheduled to be
on with Errol. Also, it won't be long until a major research
tool will be offered from Faded Discs that will make you drool!


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs








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                  Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:59:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:28:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape - Sandow


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:52:48 -0400
>Subject: Re: Copyright on Pascagoula Tape

>However, you seem to be saying that your work-over of the
>Pascagoula Sheriff's Department tape(s) electronically (as you
>say, "...digitied [Sic.], enhanced, restored and remastered by
>me and is significantly changed from its original format...")
>gives you copyright to the improved version. Such an assertion
>would be absolutely wrong, according to copyright law.

>Now, please don't shoot the messenger, but just carefully read a
>good book on copyright law (as I have done), or talk to a lawyer
>who specializes in copyright law. From either source, you will
>learn that the position you express in your above statement is
>incorrect.

>Surely you realize that if you were to take an old Elvis record
>and digitally clean it up to where it sounds sharper and
>clearer, such action would not only not give you the right to
>copyright it, but publication of it would actually be illegal.
>The only difference with the Pascagoula tape(s) is that they
>are evidently in public domain and your improving and publishing
>them is entirely illegal, but doing so does not give you
>copyright by any stretch of the imagination.

This doesn't sound right to me at all.

Old Elvis records are still under copright. So of course you
couldn't take one, digitally enhance it, and sell your
enhancement. You'd be violating the record company's copyright.

But very old public domain recordings of famous artists are
digitally enhanced very often, and the enhancements then
released for sale and copyrighted. Take, for instance, Caruso,
the great tenor, who was recorded by RCA, the same company that,
decades later, recorded Elvis. Caruso's records are now in the
public domain. So Naxos, a very enterprising classical record
company, is releasing all of Caruso's old RCA recordings, in new
digital versions supervised by a very famous recording engineer.
Naxos's versions can certainly be copyrighted, and of course
are. So if I wanted to release my own set of Caruso records, I
could freely take the old RCA stuff in the public domain, and
put it on CDs of my own. But if I copied the Naxos versions of
the same recordings, I'd be violating copyright.

In a related case, I've been setting a passage from Proust to
music. Proust wrote early in the last century, and his writing
(or at least the beginning of "Remembrance of Things Past")
appears to be in the public domain. The copy I have, of the
French original, says that the editing of the text is
copyrighted, but evidently not the text itself. This means that
I can use the words Proust wrote in my music, without getting
permission from anybody - as long as I use them exactly as they
were first published in France many years ago. But if the new
edition I'm working from has, let's say, substituted a semicolon
for a comma at any place (standard literary editing - a new
copy of the manuscript might have surfaced, or a new editor
might have decided that Proust really meant a semicolon where
the original publishers put a comma), then I can't use that
semicolon without violating copyright.

I could go on at great length about this. Beethoven's symphonies
are in the public domain. You can buy the printed music for them
very cheaply. But what you're buying are outdated, 19th century
editions of what he wrote. Musicologists now know that these
19th century editions are full of mistakes, and don't fully
represent Beethoven's intentions. The corrected texts are
copyrighted - because the corrections represent new, original
work by scholars who are alive today - and if you want to buy
them, you'll have to pay a lot.

I think Wendy is right - she and Bill Jones own the copyright to
their digital enhancement.


Greg Sandow








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                  Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:40:00 -0400
Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says


Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_T
ype1&c=Article&cid=1065737415310&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

10-10-03

Jennifer Robinson
Canadian Press

Blame Ed Wood's spinning pie plates, the Raelian obsession with
cloning and theme parks, or maybe Erich von Daniken's premise
that ancient gods were once travellers from outer space.

Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
Styles.

Best known for his work on the 1967 case of a suspected UFO
crash in Shag Harbour, N.S., Styles was expected to be among
five experts speaking this weekend in Halifax at an
international symposium on unidentified flying objects.

For him, proof that UFOs exist can be found in an unlikely
place: Canadian government documents.

Through federal access requests, he has found detailed reports
from RCMP officers and Defence Department officials chronicling
decades of strange sightings in our skies.

"A lot of what goes on nowadays really isn't ufology. It's what
I call alienology," says Styles, co-author of Dark Object, a
book about the Shag Harbour incident in which a large object
crashed into waters off southwest Nova Scotia on Oct. 4, 1967,
leaving behind a trail of yellow foam and bewildered fishermen
who sailed the area to search for survivors.

Navy divers mounted an extensive search and RCMP talked to many
witnesses but nothing was found.

Official reports offer detailed accounts from police and an Air
Canada pilot who witnessed a strange object in the sky.

Styles was 12 when he saw the orange object above his home in
Dartmouth, N.S. He estimates 90 per cent of sightings are
mistakes. The International Space Station's bright lights
regularly trip up casual observers.








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   Oct > Oct 10

                    Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:01:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:49:15 -0400
Subject: Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue


I keep receiving reports from July 28, 2003. This one came in
today. If my brain is working right, I believe there are around
180 witnesses to this event - plus a large object which passed
through the area at almost the same time. Whatever the so-called
ray of light was that was witnessed, is still up in the air. I
am sure there are a lot of ideas floating around as to what this
may have been. But as said at the bottom of this witness' email,
the Penticton Observatory was contacted and they had no idea
what it was. So just another mystery!


Hi

I live in Cherryville, B.C. My son and his friend woke me up at
about 12:30 a.m. on July 28th, to verify what they were looking
at in the sky.

The ray of light (using the term "ray" loosely as the light did
not have actual defined edge and straightness like a beam of
light - the edges of the light were "fuzzy"), appeared to come
from the west (I say appeared because it just looked like it was
just sitting in the sky) and went straight East dividing the
whole sky.

It was spectacular!

They did not notice anything previous to this - they were
partying. We watched the light for a good half hour - it seemed
to move - like almost divide into two parts and then come back
together. It was quite low as you could distinguish that the
stars (which were very visible that night) were way off in the
distance.

I told my dad about this and his first reaction was that it was
probably something to do with the HART (I don't know if I
spelled that correctly) Project. HBCC UFO (HARRP Project she is
referring to).

A friend at work who lives in Armstrong said here husband woke
up that night and went outside because he thought it was awfully
light out and he new it was not a full moon. He witnessed the
same thing. He contacted the Penticton Observatory and they said
that they had quite a few enquiries about the "light in the sky"
but had no explanation.

HBCC UFO Research








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                    Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:01:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:49:15 -0400
Subject: Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue


I keep receiving reports from July 28, 2003. This one came in
today. If my brain is working right, I believe there are around
180 witnesses to this event - plus a large object which passed
through the area at almost the same time. Whatever the so-called
ray of light was that was witnessed, is still up in the air. I
am sure there are a lot of ideas floating around as to what this
may have been. But as said at the bottom of this witness' email,
the Penticton Observatory was contacted and they had no idea
what it was. So just another mystery!


Hi

I live in Cherryville, B.C. My son and his friend woke me up at
about 12:30 a.m. on July 28th, to verify what they were looking
at in the sky.

The ray of light (using the term "ray" loosely as the light did
not have actual defined edge and straightness like a beam of
light - the edges of the light were "fuzzy"), appeared to come
from the west (I say appeared because it just looked like it was
just sitting in the sky) and went straight East dividing the
whole sky.

It was spectacular!

They did not notice anything previous to this - they were
partying. We watched the light for a good half hour - it seemed
to move - like almost divide into two parts and then come back
together. It was quite low as you could distinguish that the
stars (which were very visible that night) were way off in the
distance.

I told my dad about this and his first reaction was that it was
probably something to do with the HART (I don't know if I
spelled that correctly) Project. HBCC UFO (HARRP Project she is
referring to).

A friend at work who lives in Armstrong said here husband woke
up that night and went outside because he thought it was awfully
light out and he new it was not a full moon. He witnessed the
same thing. He contacted the Penticton Observatory and they said
that they had quite a few enquiries about the "light in the sky"
but had no explanation.

HBCC UFO Research








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   Oct > Oct 10

                  Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:27:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:32:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions - Goldstein


>From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:25:15 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alpha Centauri Questions


>In our book 'Die Antwort des Orion'('Orion's Answer') the whole
>chapter 28 is discussing all aspects and facts regarding 'Nibiru'.

>Finally, I would like to stress that Sitchin's book have been an
>enlightment for me and I like all of his books very much.

>Though...I think I can prove him wrong with some of his
>conclusions that the dark spot in the pictures of the probe
>Phobos II in its final transmissions is an UFO.


Hello Joachim,

Thanks for the information regarding Alpha Centauri. I have not
read your book. Have you ever consulted with Mesopatamian
scholars in Germany regarding Sitchin's claims?

Fellow Listerions, I hope we do not start a trend of political
campaign messages on our posts as the election looms near. We
have varied views about the variety of candidates, so there is
no point other than sadomasochism to portray them here. Joachim,
for example, I can assure you that the vast majority of
Americans feel very different than you regarding the candidacy
of Dennis Kucinich.

I'm Glad to have come back to California from Berlin to enjoy
the great new Arnie movie as it happens, a new adventure. But I
Vill Be Baack! <g>

Josh







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   Oct > Oct 11

               Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:43:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:58:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hamilton


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:21:10 -0700
>Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:25:34 EDT
>>Subject: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>>A while back I recall a study that focused on the effect of
>>extreme cold on light.

>>My question is if extreme cold affects light and it's
>>particle/wave flow, does the cold of space do so as well?

>>If that's the case, does the light from distant stars reach us
>>slower and is it calculated by our scientists when determining
>>distance and age of these bodies?

>If this article or one much like it is online, I would like to
>see the URL. There are probably caveats in any scientific
>article about the speed of light, and those cannot be passed
>over.

>For example, light travels slower thru transparent solids and
>liquids or lenses would not work, and spear fishermen on a
>riverbank would not have to aim above the fish.

>The standard value for c assumes 'free space', i.e. a vacuum,
>which in theory has no temperature at all. Not high, not low,
>the "cold of interstellar space" is a fiction.

Usually interstellar space is considered to have the temperature
of the Cosmic Microwave Background.

Interstellar space is not at absolute zero. Instead, it radiates
at the characteristic 2.7 K temperature of the echo of the big
bang.

An isolated planet in interstellar space would equilibrate to
2.7 K, modified slightly by any internal heat production
(whether by radioactive decay, chemical differentiation, or
ongoing compaction).


-Bill H.






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   Oct > Oct 11

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:01:59 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:34:51 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>There are a few questions that I would like to ask you regarding
>the ML307.

>First, how do you know that the ML307 drawing issued by the Air
>Force report is authentic?

Instead of asking some question with no obvious point, why not
just make your point? Is it that the AF cleverly altered the
original so that we would only think Ramey's object was a rawin
when it was not? If it is, that is way too conspiratorial for
me, frankly unbelievable.

>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the first
>place. As Neil , Ed and myself have tried to explain to you many
>times, this just won't work. The assembly instructions of the
>target clearly state the following: "The target is examined to
>see that the sides and corners are smooth and square. Any tears,
>loose sticks, or loose seams are repaired with tape applied to
>the paper surface rather than to the foil whenever possible".
>Now do you think for one minute that they would design a target
>so that you have to two foil sides glued together when they know
>that using tape on the foil side is not a good idea? I think
>not!

You can argue all you want that it never happened, but the
photos I keep pointing you to of other rawins clearly show white
strips on foil. Again:

www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html
www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_launch_July1948.html

That you and Neil continue to ignore absolutely clear
photographic proof that you are wrong continues to amaze me.

>Third, what would you say is be the height of the panel resting
>on Dubois's knee?

I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
on this edge.

>Fourth, what part of the rawin target does the panel on Dubois's
>knee represent with respect to the drawing issued by the Air
>Force?

It is one of the two large triangular foil/paper panels in the
drawing that the AF so cleverly altered so as to confuse us.
Specifically it is the triangular panel labeled "C" forming the
"roof" of the left-hand corner in the drawing. A white strip
sheath for the framework stick is very clearly shown on the
drawing, including a cut-way showing the stick inside of it
(labeled "12"). Other white strips are also clearly shown on
this schematic, such as over the the right side, with a stick
labeled "11" showing threw another cut-way in a white sheath.

>Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
>ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
>were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
>account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
>for this?

Sorry, what's this got to do with what's in Ramey's office?

Among my personal calculations was seeing what happened if the
balloon rose and fell exactly as fast as Flight #5 the next day.
If the balloon had risen significantly slower because of
attached Rawins, all that would have happened is that it would
have ended up even further away from the Foster Ranch crash
site.

>There is an additional comment I would like to make regarding
>the debate about Ramey's quote in Reuters. David you mentioned
>that the quote came filtered through Major Kirton and therefore
>may have been just an off the cuff remark. I think that your
>missing a very imortant point in this quote. That fact that
>Ramey indicated that none of the men on this base could identify
>the debris as balloon target debris says that alot of people had
>ample oppurtunity and sufficient time to examine the debris,

Contrast this with another quote by Ramey reported by New York
PM, based on UP stories, that Ramey thought it a radar target,
but because of the high security hadn't let anybody else see or
photograph it yet. So did Ramey show it to everybody at the base
or nobody?

>so it wasn't all left for Gen. Ramey to identify. And as Neil has
>pointed out the Rawin Target was not an unknown device.

Yes, and that's why you get a number of contrary quotes,
reported in other news stories, of Ramey (and also Dubose)
instantly thinking it a radar target. Ramey said he would bring
in one of his weather officers to make sure. It was great
theater on Ramey's part.

The fact is, as I point out in another post, Kirton's statements
to Reuters and the FBI about the object being "hexagonal" in
shape literally prove that Ramey knew it was a Rawin from the
beginning. Further this description had to have been furnished
to him ahead of time. ML307's are not remotely "hexagonal" in
shape unless they are _intact_ and _fully assembled_, and only
when viewed either directly from above or below, and then only
from a distance (so depth cues don't destroy the illusion). At
any other angles, the rawins were decidely non-hexagonal.

So how could Ramey, or any of his men, possible deduce this 3D
shape from a torn up target lying on the ground? It's quite
impossible. Only somebody highly familiar with the rawins might
ever use "hexagonal" to describe the shape. It is a very odd
description of the targets at best that only a specialist might
use. Yet, according to Kirton, that is the description Ramey
gave him.

Ramey had to have been given this description by somebody else,
somebody who knew about these Rawins. Thus I can imagine Ramey
asking how he should describe the "disk" when asked and somebody
feeds him that they look "hexagonal."

If you take the Reuters quote literally, none of his men
recognized the object as an Army type device. Yet only somebody
highly familiar with Army Rawins would use a hexagonal
description. The Reuters statements of "hexagonal" and
nonrecognition are self-contradictory.

>They
>were being shipped by the box load which consisted of 24 targets
>per box. And they had their own military stock number. To assume
>that out of all of the people who examined the debris not one of
>them could identfy a Rawin Target would be stretching it, don't
>you think?

Of course, I agree with you. Other people at the base knew about
Rawins, such as Ramey's op officer, Col. John Ryan who was
talking about them in an AP story published that very morning,
and Ramey's chief of staff, Col. Dubose, future AF head of
air/sea rescue, who in one of the FW Star-Telegram stories spoke
of similar devices being used on life-rafts to assist searchers.
(Small corner radar reflectors are sold even today to small-
craft owners to equip their emergency life boats or rafts.)

The FW Star-Telegram even published a picture of the
Circleville, Ohio, crashed Rawin on their front page the
previous day. I'm sure a number of people at the base saw that
photo.

But I think you are missing the bigger picture. It wasn't a
question of nobody recognizing a Rawin target. It was known all
along. The target was the cover story. They procured one from
somewhere so that it could be photographed as the Roswell
"disk." And this had to be pre-planned, with somebody even
telling Ramey what to say when asked about its shape. Hence the
"hexagonal" description, a smoking gun of a cover-up.

>I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
>about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
>becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
>is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.

I appreciate your efforts in compiling information on the
targets. But there is no question in my mind that the object
shown in the Fort Worth photos is a standard, torn-up radar
target.


David Rudiak







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   Oct > Oct 11

                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hayes

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:20:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:35:14 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38 - Hayes


>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:31:04 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38

<snip>

The clearest image I have seen so far comes from the link from
the Unknown Country article to:

http://hometown.aol.com/codeufo/eltanin.html

Alongside the 'actual object' is a 'graphic representation' -
before you ask I have not been through all the numerology below
the image.


Best wishes,

John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports
and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid
Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO
News UK.








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                Eltanin Object [was Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:16:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:06:45 -0400
Subject: Eltanin Object [was Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8


>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:31:04 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:24:46 +0100
>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 38

><snip>

>>>>UFO ROUNDUP
>>>>Volume 8, Number 38 October 8, 2003
>>>>Editor: Joseph Trainor

>>><snip>

>>>>1964: STRANGE ARTIFACT ON THE OCEAN FLOOR

>><snip>

>>>>The possibility that the Eltanin's mystery undersea
>>>>antenna might be an alien probe from outer space occurred
>>>>to only a few people. One of them was Hollywood producer
>>>>Irwin Allen, who worked the Eltanin mystery into an
>>>>episode of his TV series Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
>>>>about a year later. (See the book Atlantis Rising by Brad
>>>Steiger, Dell Publishing Co., Inc., 1973, pages 97 and 98.)

>>>Hello all: That Eltanin account sounded familiar.

><snip>

>List, My cousin in USA (ex-navy) sent me the following:

>Here is some additional information concerning the USNS Eltanin:

>http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=648

>http://www.ufoarea.bravepages.com/aas_antenna.html

>http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/130270.htm

>http://www.arf.fsu.edu/arfhtml/arfpages/history.html

>My un-educated spin on what the object might be [he wrote to me]
>is that it is an "underwater array." I've seen some of the U.S.
>Navy's underwater arrays used on the West Coast. They're larger
>and do resemble "trees" with arms sticking out. The outstretched
>arms have transducers, transmitters and who knows what.

>The "antenna" in the picture could possibly have been launched
>[dropped] from a Soviet "spy" ship.

>The tip of the "antenna" might very well be a diamond shaped
>lead or iron weight that drives into the bottom sediment and
>anchors the "antenna" in position. These things can be passive,
>that is when something like sonar waves hit the sensors the
>power from the sending source activates the transceiver and
>transmits a signal on a different frequency to a listening
>station. There are other type of sensors like magnetometers
>and/or sound wave sensors that might generate a signal to a
>receiving station.

>There are both U.S. and Russian satellites still in orbit that
>can pick up a 1 watt signal, which isn't very much. The
>frequencies monitored is both 121.5 MHz and 460 MHz. With the
>satellites in space and in polar orbit they can plot a 1 watt
>signal pretty close to it's transmitting source. So, it might be
>possible that this "antenna" might be some sort of transceiver.
>It would be interesting to note whether or not when they were
>photographing this object any "stray" or unexplained signals
>were detected.

>Who knows, the Soviets may have planted hundreds of these things
>like the U.S. SOSUS:

>http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/sosus.htm

>system in an attempt to tract the movement of submarines.

>I wouldn't be surprised if this item hasn't already been picked
>up and inspected.

Hello Diana, Martin:

Thanks for the links! I how have copy of a good image of the sea
object, and another of the ship Eltanin. Martin: No need to scan
anything.

I agree it doesn't much resemble a ship's mast so much as some
sort of sensor array, interesting in itself.

Without really knowing, I sort of doubt a Soviet origin, they
pretty much kept their toys in the Northern Hemisphere. As for
microwave in the 120-460 MHz band, I don't think that would
penetrate sea water, certainly not at thousands of feet depth.

If it were just a scientific device, I would expect more about
it in the public domain.

One possibility might be some sort of military device to detect
the passage of submarines etc. around the Straits of Magellan,
thus avoiding the Panama Canal. If there's any merit to that, I
suppose it would need a submarine cable to power it up and
retrieve signals.

I admit that's a stretch, but the alternatives seem less likely.
If its artificial, the question remains who put it there. If it
was the US Navy, I can't see them releasing the photo and the
location. Could there be a natural life form like that? Really
bizarre if so.


Best wishes and thanks

- Larry






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               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:13:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>Jennifer Robinson
>Canadian Press

<snip>

>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>Styles.

No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
and well.

<snip>

>The International Space Station's bright lights
>regularly trip up casual observers.

Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.


=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)








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   Oct > Oct 11

                           Taped A Strange Object

From: Linda Moore <address removed>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:08:01 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:24:31 -0400
Subject: Taped A Strange Object


[Non-Subscriber Post]


I filmed a strange object July 6,2003 in the
Summerville/Charleston area of South Carolina.

It fascinated me so much I created a website about my footage -
there you can find online clips to view.

I was surfing the web and came across your site - interesting
reports I must say. Whenever you have a free moment I welcome
you to visit:

www.roguesighting.com

I appreciate any & all feedback & appreciate your time .


Best to you,

Linda Moore







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:03:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:30:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:27:05 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>Well I sure opened up a can of worms with the original post on
>>>this thread!

>>>I must have a dozen or more news services from around the world
>>>as well as UFO researchers and one debunker who got creamed
>>>contacting me.

>>Well I hope I'm not inviting a "creaming" here when I point out
>>that this Giant Triangle Multiple-Witness story seems to be
>>another one of those multiple witness stories where we only ever
>>seem to hear from one witness. We are told that:

>>>I've tried on numerous occasions to get the other staff members
>>>to recall the incidents but they're all scared stiff.

>>How strange, especially as nothing dramatic seems to have
>>happened to Mr Boone.

>Seems? Did you 'ask' me if anything dramatic happened to me?
>It's easy, you send me an e-mail. Millions of people use emails
>everyday. It's funny how much information can be gathered by
>politely 'asking' instead of tossing attempts of invalidation.
>Go on, try it. They even have emoticons and cute pictures added
>to make the e-mailing experience more fun!

My apologies, I'll try to do better: Perhaps you might tell us
what sorts of pressure you were put under not to talk about the
giant triangle by whatever agency wished to cover up your story;
and whether anything dramatic did happen, which might have led
your colleagues to refuse to discuss the matter.

I dislike emoticons. Shakespeare was perfectly able to express
himself without them, and so, in my humbler way, am I!

>>It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
>>only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
>>getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
>>further information, Jerry?

>Well if you're the 'associative' type that's on you. Whomever
>'Jerry' is, perhaps you should e-mail him. As for me, ask me.
>It's easy.

You're fairly new on this List, so I understand you missing the
reference to Jerome 'Jerry' Clark, one of the doyen of American
ufologists. If you search the archives of UpDates - and there'n
no reason at all why you should, except to aquaint yourself with
the background to much which is discussed in this forum - you
will see that he, I, and several others conducted a long,
informative, sometimes acrimonious and ultimately inconclusive
debate on this case.

Jerry promised that new revelations were about to be reveales,
but so far we have not seen them.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:40:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:25:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>Jennifer Robinson
>>Canadian Press

><snip>

>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>Styles.

>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>and well.

><snip>

>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.



Hello Mac:

I have _never_ heard of the ISS being confused with a UFO.

This sounds like a class project from Journalism 114a  except
that its otherwise fairly well written.

More likely, its written from barstool 14b, the one closest to
the seltzer bottle, and furthest from the books.


Best

- Larry








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               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:53:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:34:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>Jennifer Robinson
>>Canadian Press

><snip>

>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>Styles.

>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>and well.

I don't think the scientific study of UFOs has really been
"hijacked' by crackpots. In my opinion, a more accurate
characterization is that the power elites recognized long ago
that crackpots could be EXPLOITED to falsely discredit serious
UFO research. Guilt by association is one of the most effective
tools in the propagandist's bag of dirty tricks. Crackpot
stories are also apparently good for the ratings, so the news
media concentrates on Raelians, Heaven's Gate, and various other
bizarre tales from the fringe, while ignoring credible UFO
reports (which, of course, would be too "sensationalistic" for
allegedly serious journalists to cover). I see His Holiness Rael
on national TV news about once a month. I've yet to see any
serious UFO researcher interviewed on the same news programs.
(The Toronto Star article, by the way, seems to be a rare
exception to the usual media herd mentality).

It's understandable that people who've put in a lot of time and
hard conscientious work into UFO research with little
acknowledgement are angered by the crackpots and the amount of
attention they get. However, I think the anger is rather
misdirected. Of course, being angry at the sensationalist "main
stream" news media and a stonewalling bureaucracy doesn't get
you anywhere, either. But those are the forces responsible for
maintaining the status quo, whether or not there's anything much
that can be done about it.








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                     Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:34:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:57:36 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
>about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
>becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
>is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.


Andrew,

Where are you trying to drive us? To discover that is was flying
saucer?

Excellent to add confusion and ridicule to the Roswell case.


Gildas Bourdais







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                     Robotic Device In Pinetamare Italy?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:04:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:32:09 -0400
Subject: Robotic Device In Pinetamare Italy?


[Quote]

Below are excerpts of two letters written by me during my tour
of duty in Naples, Italy and addressed to the Editor, Flying
Saucer Review - 20 March 1978/Monday/Naples, Italy


Dear Ladies and Gents,

A few days ago I received yet another fine issue of FSR (Vol 23,
No. 4). I particularly enjoyed reading the MIB and Betty Hill
articles. I've been collecting newsclippings on paranormal
happenings in addition to those on UFOs and was wondering if FSR
would accept the former for filing. My respect for the SITU
[Society for the Investigation of The Unexplained], (now
defunct), has slipped considerably since the passing of Ivan T.
Sanderson (1973).

Since my son matter-of-factly remarked last summer that he saw
an UFO heading out to sea I (really) gave no thought to any
(possible) local spate of sightings. Boys will be boys, but my
son, Sayarm (Siam), says he never related to his friends my
interest in UFOs. Upon first meeting Aaron, a schoolchum of
Sayarms, they began to talk of an UFO. Both are 12 years old.
Below is my sketch of their description of the object:

Warning, ASCII art follows...Warning, ASCII art follows...      |
                                   |
                               ---------
                                   |
                                   |- - - - - -ANTENNA
                                   |
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
             <                                  >
            <                       ------------->-----UNIFORM GRAY-WHITE
           <                                      >
          <                                        >
           <                   ------             >
             <                 |    |            >
               <               | ** |           >
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

          |--------------- 10 feet----------------|

** - Mechanical arm/hand with ''green eyes'' in a doorway


From a casual conversation I gathered that on the night of
21/22 February (1978), Aaron and a friend of the same age were
hunting for mudskippers (and stuff). The spot was a muddy area
of cleared ground between the beach and the pine tree buffer,
which is situated in the coastal resort Pinetamare, ~18 miles
north of Naples. A thunderstorm forced the boys to seek shelter
in a vacant concrete mixing hut. Around 0200 the storm abated
and a loud humming could be heard. Upon looking skywards a
"football"-shaped object, uniformly gray-white, having an
antenna, and hovering 5-6 feet overhead was seen. Initially,
Aaron said he wanted to run, but felt "frozen" to the spot. The
object then departed towards the NE at light aircraft speed
before disap- pearing into cloud banks inland in the Apennines
foothills. Only on further gentle questioning did Aaron mention
an odd sight while "frozen". A door opened on the underside[?]
or lower half revealing a mechanical arm and/or hand holding an
apparatus displaying "green eyes." I may try to talk with Aaron
again. Also, a similar object was seen by a group of boys in
January.

------------------------

29 December 1978/Naples, Italy

Charles Bowen
The Editor
FSR Publications LTD
England

Enclosed are several clippings from various newspapers,
including several Italian language articles from 15 through 22
December 1978. These contain enough information to reveal that a
UFO wave exists in Italy. Quite a number of my workmates and
acquaintances have related interesting stories of unusual
sightings. Numerous low-level objects during daylight flight
were observed and photographed, oftentimes by the Carabinieri.
Mr. Carp.....a, a NATO civilian employee, with a very serious
disposition, told me of a woman friend; who claims contact with
extraterrestrials. She maintains her first contact was at age
seven. On two occasions she left the company of Mr. Carp.....a,
stating "they" were calling for her. When Mr. Carp.....a has
asked her for a visit with the extraterrestrials she has always
said he wasn't mentally ready. She claims UFO bases exist near
Mount Vesuvius and within a group of volcanic steam vents in
Bagnoli, a suburb of Naples, called locally Vulcano Solfatara.
The current UFO wave is an attempt by extraterrestrials to
prevent something very bad of a political nature in Italy,
according to her. Mr. Carp.....a says she teaches piano and has
the most penetrating green eyes; [maybe he is in love] that at
times he can barely look into them. I want to emphasize that in
two years of working with Mr. Carp.....a he has never exhibited
any storytelling tendencies [until now].


--

"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@mindspring.com >
Alternate: < fortean1@msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites:  Fortean Times  Mystic's Haven  TLCB
 U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
  TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]







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   Oct > Oct 11

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:12:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:35:01 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>There are a few questions that I would like to ask you
>>regarding the ML307.

<snip>

>I appreciate your efforts in compiling information on the
>targets. But there is no question in my mind that the object
>shown in the Fort Worth photos is a standard, torn-up radar
>target.

>David Rudiak


Andrew and List,

Debris Identity:

There's no doubt it was a RAWIN, as David has proven in many
ways, many times (many thanks!).

Balloon Ascent Rate Calculations vs. RAWIN Drag:

I wasn't aware that Prof Moore calculated much of _anything_.

I thought he just picked "comfy" numbers and wrote them down in
his table (Table 5), hoping no one would notice dozens of
discrepancies such as 100/12.1 does not equal 350, etc. My
calculator says the correct answer is 8.26 for that one. And I
thought _I_ was math-challenged!

But I guess if one does Science by fiat and Air Force contract,
then 100/12.1 = 350 or whatever you want it to be... With a
RAWIN target attached, I would imagine the calculation for the
ascent rate between 52,000 feet and the next point might be
around, let's say, 90/12.1 or 325 feet per minute, but only if
the Air Force approves that value... But I'm just an amateur;
I'm sure Prof Moore could pick a "comfier" number with full Air
Force approval.


Toy Tape on RAWINS:

I have a curiosity question, here, for David, regarding the so-
called purple toy tape reported by Prof Moore. Sorry for asking
this question if the answer is on your website or was mentioned
in a previous post, but has the "purple toy tape with the flower
symbols", supposedly seen by Moore and his team in 1947, ever
shown up in any photographs or movies of RAWIN targets (color or
black and white)?


Dave Morton







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   Oct > Oct 12

                  Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 12:27:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:08:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting? - Friedman


>From: Greg Bone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:22:17 EDT
>Subject: Jesse Marcel UFO Sighting?

>Found a bit of data about UFOs on a website. Nice info that
>suggests saucers and boomerang craft had been seen prior to '47.
>One snippet had mention that then Maj. Jesse Marcel had his own
>close encounter and am wondering if this is true?

>http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/V-Formations.htm


Bob Pratt is a fine reporter. However, a formation of lights
flying by is not by Hynek's definition a close encounter. It is
a UFO sighting since he couldn't identify what he saw. Certainly
not all UFO sightings are close encounters.


Stan Friedman







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                    Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:06:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:12:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned - Maccabee


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:45:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

>>From: Ian Rogers <onemoreshadow@rogers.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:34:19 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO Crashes Questioned

<snip>

>Our self-enforced UFO cover-up based on what we are want to
>accept, reminds me of what Jesus told his disciples - "I have
>spoken to you of Earthly things and you do not believe; how then
>will you believe if I speak of Heavenly things? John 3:12


Nick refers to what I call the "self-cover up" which, IMHO, is
the main thing that keeps acceptance at arms length... and
beyond. The iimplications of UFO reality are so.... overwhelming
when you think about it for a while (assume "they" are real...
and then start contemplating the possibilities) that most people
don't want to seriously think about it. As mindless
entertainment... okay... but not as reality.

As for not making any progress over the last 10 years (Ian
Roger's complaint or charge against the "UFO Community"),
progress is like beauty... in the eye of the beholder. Whereas I
wouldn't say that we have made no progress, I would certainly
agree that we haven't arrived at any firm conclusions and we
certainly have not yet succeeded in dragging conventional
science (scientists), kicking and screaming if necessary, into
the UFO fray. They would rather just ignore it (can't exist, so
why argue about it, they say).

We we do have an ever growing accumulation of stories and, more
importantly, witnesses. Perhaps no real revelation will occur
until virtually everyone is a witness. But we are approaching
that time. One thing we learn and relearn again and again (I'm
trying to avoid repeating my self by being redundant) is that
there are numerous "hidden witnesses"... the people who come
forward years after a sighting to admit that, "yes, I saw one."
When the sum of open and hidden witnesses reaches some critical
number, then all it will take is a young child to stand up and
say "they're real" and everyone will agree. UFO version of the
ENCE (Emperor's New Clothes Effect).







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:45:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:16:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


>It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
>only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
>getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
>further information, Jerry?


Changing your story, eh, John? Only _one_ witness now?

Next time around, I imagine you'll be telling us there were _no_
witnesses. We _do_ know what sort of witness there is none of,
as it happens. We do know that not a single informant, of the
many who were on the ship on that memorable day and therefore in
a position to discredit -- devastatingly, even to nonpelicanists
-- the photographer's (and others') testimony, has ever stepped
forward.

That fantasy figure of every pelicanist's wet dream has now had
nearly half a century to make his presence known. Perhaps
pelicanists should now start praying for divine intervention
before this fabled missing informant is no longer among us.

In any event, patience is the soul of virtue, at least when it
comes to _real_ developments re Trindade. These, it is clear, do
not involve the expectation that an informant who will tell the
pelicanists what they want to hear will ever step forward. Could
it be that this happens to be so because no such person exists?
Perish the thought. And one would think that if nothing happened
that day in front of all those nonexistent witnesses, it would
be _so_ easy to prove.

Meantime, stay tuned.


Cheers,

Jerry Clark






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                     2 Reports From HBCC UFO - 10-11-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:04:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:45:49 -0400
Subject: 2 Reports From HBCC UFO - 10-11-03



Telkwa, British Columbia

Date:  October 4, 2003
Time:  11:00 p.m.

A fellow called me from Telkwa, British Columbia to file a
report. He said from his farm, looking northwest towards the
Hazelton's he watched a strange object with lights on it. They
were flashing green and red. The strange thing was that the
object would move from side to side, not flying in a straight
line. The witness also said when the lights moved to the side,
they did so flying miles across the sky. Then they would fly
back to it's original position and fly to the opposite side.
This was observed for approx: 10 minutes in total. The fellow
also noted that when the object moved, it did so very quickly,
this is when he ruled out an airplane. The object eventually
disappeared into the distance.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
---------

Slocan Park, British Columbia

Date:  October 9, 2003
Time:  6:45 p.m.

Slocan Park, BC: On 10-09-03, at 6:45 pm, I looked out my living
room window and saw a bright, white ball of light flying fairly
low over Crescent Valley. It was identical to the UFO I reported
last week and seemed to be coming from the same area where the
other one landed, i.e., the Little Slocan Valley. This one was
flying in a straight line towards the South East, at
approximately 1,500 feet before disappearing into a low
cloudbank. I would guess it was going about 1,500 mph. It only
took it about three seconds to go from Slocan Park to what
appeared to be an area over the 3, 6 junction, a distance of 8
miles.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:04:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:05:27 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:12:35 EDT
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <>ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>>Subject:

>Toy Tape on RAWINS:

>I have a curiosity question, here, for David, regarding the so-
>called purple toy tape reported by Prof Moore. Sorry for asking
>this question if the answer is on your website or was mentioned
>in a previous post, but has the "purple toy tape with the
flower
>symbols", supposedly seen by Moore and his team in 1947, ever
>shown up in any photographs or movies of RAWIN targets (color
or
>black and white)?

Nobody has ever found the "purple toy tape with flower symbols"
in the Ramey photos or any other RAWIN target photo, including
the Air Force's mysterious, unnameable photoanalysis lab during
their 1994 Roswell "investigation."

Who knows?  Maybe it really did exist, but no surviving photos
show it: bad angles, bad lighting, target too small, whatever.

One interesting thing that Neil Morris did spy in the Ramey
photos, that had been previously overlooked, was twine tied onto
the neck of the balloon on the floor.  Although Neil
unfortunately inflated it into a mysterious anomalous "cable," a
string tied to the balloon neck is exactly what one would expect
to find.

However, Mack Brazel claimed not to find any string to support
the "foil and sticks" object he found, yet there it is, plain as
day in the photos (once you know where to look for it).  It
would have been rather hard for him to miss.  This is yet
another indication that what was in Ramey's office had nothing
at all to do with what Brazel really found and Brazel's story
was just a put-up job.

Ramey's early "hexagon" description, however, is the real
smoking gun of a prearranged RAWIN cover story.  Only an intact
RAWIN might ever resemble a hexagon.  The torn-up radar target
in his office would never generate such a description.


David Rudiak







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   Oct > Oct 12

                                 FIRSTHUMCAT

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:41:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:15:18 -0400
Subject: FIRSTHUMCAT


Dear colleagues,

I have compiled a preliminary census of "first occupant cases"
around the world.

I define "first occupant case" as follows:

a) The first case of this kind denounced after June 1947 in each
country.

b) The entity/occupant should be clearly related with a UFO (no
isolated entities, neither BVM apparitions, ghosts, etc.) and
clearly described (not just shadows or silhouettes). It does not
matter if its form is not humanoid, that is just a label.

c) The data must be provided by contemporary sources, no
remembered and/or investigated years later. Preferentially it
should have appeared in the media at the time.

d) "Positive" or "negative". It does not matter if it was later
explained, or if it was a hoax (on the contrary, I am especially
interested in media hoaxing).

Those guidelines are only orientative; each case would be
evaluated independently.

I have also included other cases that do not exactly fulfil
those guidelines, so as to show which ones have been considered
and/or discarded and the reasons of the selection.

Regarding sources, I have tried to obtain the nearest to the
incident and its alleged explanation (if applicable) and would
appreciate any additional information, specially first hand
drawings of the entities involved.

This is a continuing effort and any collaboration is welcomed.
Please, contact me at: lrgm@arrakis.es

You can consult the FIRSTHUMCAT catalog at our web in the
Anomaly Foundation:

<http://www.anomalia.org/fhc_en.pdf> English version

<http://www.anomalia.org/firsthumcat.pdf> Spanish version

Please, feel free to share those links with anyblody. The updates
will be posted there. And excuse if you receive this message
several times, I have posted it everywhere.

Looking forward to your help,


Luis R. Gonzalez Manso








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                Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:53:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:12:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch


Hello all:


I meant for this to out to the List, so I am resending it.

 - LH


-------- Original Message --------

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
To: landahl1@comcast.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:56:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>Hello Greg and Larry,

>Are you certain it was merely 'cold' itself that slowed light?
>I have not heard of that. Cold in a vacuum would not slow light,
>would it?

>However, Bose-Einstein Condensates have successfully slowed
>light to approximately 120 feet per hour. Bose-Einstein
>Condensates are created by supercooling a gas to approximately
>50 billionths of a degree above absolute zero. This extreme
>cooling triggers a quantum effect - the overlapping of
>individual atoms due to extremely high uncertainty of their
>individual positions. This creates a superdense superatom out
>of the trillions of individual atoms. Perhaps this was the
>source of the statement that cold can slow light?

>Regards,

>Erik Landahl

Hello Erik:

I still haven't seen the original article, but vaguely remember
reading something along those lines.

Did you mean "Bose Einstein Concentrate" as opposed to
"condensate?" Either way, BEC is certainly not a vacuum. As such
it could definitely retard (but not increase) the speed of
light.

I should explain my earlier statement about cold space being a
fiction.

In interstellar space you have a situation as close to a perfect
vacuum as one could imagine. For all practical purposes, there
is nothing there.

For the sake of simplicity and leaving out numbers and units,
Heat = temperature times mass, or H = T * M. Dividing that
simple equation by mass, we get H/M = T same as T = H/M (
Temperature equals Heat divided by mass. A lot of heat
concentrated in a very small object must have a very high
temperature.

In theory, in a vacuum, there _is_ no mass, or you are not in a
vacuum. There is no heat because there is nothing to get hot (or
cold). Trying to define T = zero/zero is a physical and
mathematical absurdity.

You might as well ask the price of coffee in 15th century Tahiti
where and when they never heard of the stuff. No buyers, no
sellers, no coffee, no knowledge of coffee .. i.e. a complete
fiction and absurdity.

In _practical_ terms you could call deep space very cold because
of its effects, but here "common sense" leads us astray.

Suppose I stick a good thermometer out in deep space. Right
away, that little region is no longer a vacuum, the thermometer
is there! (But lets ignore that for a moment.)

What will happen, is the thermometer will radiate heat away as
infrared photons. As it cools down, these photons will each have
lower and lower energy (longer wavelength) on average. This
doesn't happen on earth, because the ambient air etc. is
radiating and conducting photons right back until some
equilibrium temperature is reached.

The thermometer in space will cool and cool until it reaches
some _very_ low temperature. My shoot-from-the hip guess is
somewhere between 1 and 10 Kelvins depending on distance/number
of nearest stars, where zero Kelvins is absolute zero
temperature.

Now! If somebody finds some medium, BEC or anything else that
actually _increases_ c (speed of light), and it proves out, I
will really get excited. I'm not holding my breath in the
meantime [burp!]


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                   Mysterious Phenomenon in the D.C. Area!

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:54:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:20:46 -0400
Subject: Mysterious Phenomenon in the D.C. Area!


A Technological ' Voice of God' and A Mysterious Phenomenon in
the D.C. Area!


The following makes one wonder what 'someone' might be up to
doing these days, when the idea that the end justifies the means
seems to be the philosophy in many places:

http://www.crazynews.net/dp/1-36.htm

One might even wonder how much more of a convincing a thing an
advanced technology from elsewhere might create to shake up
terrestrials for fun, profit, or reasons possibly inconceivable
to us.

But should the latter be happening, I suspect the means would be
much more sophisticated than patterns that could be interpreted
in many different ways, created in farmers' crops, and which
might be explained as being of human origin.

Which brings to mind something quite startling that was visible
and position-stable (despite clouds sometimes passing above and
below it) in broad daylight for over two hours at about 25,000
to 35,000 feet above sea level, and just outside the Washington,
D.C. city limits, on Friday, March 19, 1993. If any one 'out
there' saw that phenomenon, I would appreciate hearing from that
person with a description or, better still, photographs.

Description of the phenomenon and the period of visibility have
deliberately not been stated in order to prevent hoaxed
accounts. I already have three independent witness accounts and
one witness' photographs on-file.  The time slot and approximate
above-ground location are known.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:20:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:17:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:23:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>Canadian Press

>><snip>

>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>Styles.

>>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>>and well.

>><snip>

>>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

>I have never seen the ISS, or made an effort to do so. However,
>it is reportedly a prominent object in the sky and is (at times)
>far brighter than stars and planets. It also moves across the
>sky as it orbits the Earth, so it show movement that does not
>follow the Earth's rotation, as stars do. Remember that this
>object is seen as a reflective object, so its brightness would
>depend on a number of factors related to the sky conditions and
>the angle of the sun.

>You ask if this might fool some into identifying it as a UFO,
>and I think the logical answer is that it could. However, those
>who are really investigating unknown lights in the sky (and
>that's really all this appears as with the naked eye) would
>certainly investigate the position of known planets and
>satellites (including the ISS) before claiming to have found
>some unknown object in the sky. This is one of the defining
>differences between those who are truly trying to solve this
>mystery and the "Crackpots" referred to in the subject line.
>(IMO)


Hi List,

I don't believe that the ISS is a cause for concern either,
though it might account for the odd UFO sighting. Had I read
this post earlier I would have mentioned it to Chris last night.
I also disagree with the 90 percent figure. I subscribe to
something closer to 70 percent.

Best,

Don Ledger

PS - I'm operating between two computers in two locations and
download to each. Perhaps someone can tell me if Nick Pope
responded to my Avebury Balloon Hoax posting re the CAA contact
I made?








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 12

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:57:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:53:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>Jennifer Robinson
>>Canadian Press

><snip>

>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>Styles.

>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>and well.

><snip>

>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

Hi Mac,

I've no way of knowing how often the sun's bright reflections
off the ISS solar panels might actually "trip up" casual
observers, but judging from the two occasions my wife and I have
seen it in our sky moving into our N-E while the sky was still a
nice daytime blue (but near sunset), I suspect some casual
observers might become sufficiently impressed to report a 'UFO'
to Peter Davenport, for example. The bright spectacle we saw
was definitely not 'your mother's satellite sighting'.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 12

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:20:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:17:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:23:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>Canadian Press

>><snip>

>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>Styles.

>>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>>and well.

>><snip>

>>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

>I have never seen the ISS, or made an effort to do so. However,
>it is reportedly a prominent object in the sky and is (at times)
>far brighter than stars and planets. It also moves across the
>sky as it orbits the Earth, so it show movement that does not
>follow the Earth's rotation, as stars do. Remember that this
>object is seen as a reflective object, so its brightness would
>depend on a number of factors related to the sky conditions and
>the angle of the sun.

>You ask if this might fool some into identifying it as a UFO,
>and I think the logical answer is that it could. However, those
>who are really investigating unknown lights in the sky (and
>that's really all this appears as with the naked eye) would
>certainly investigate the position of known planets and
>satellites (including the ISS) before claiming to have found
>some unknown object in the sky. This is one of the defining
>differences between those who are truly trying to solve this
>mystery and the "Crackpots" referred to in the subject line.
>(IMO)


Hi List,

I don't believe that the ISS is a cause for concern either,
though it might account for the odd UFO sighting. Had I read
this post earlier I would have mentioned it to Chris last night.
I also disagree with the 90 percent figure. I subscribe to
something closer to 70 percent.

Best,

Don Ledger

PS - I'm operating between two computers in two locations and
download to each. Perhaps someone can tell me if Nick Pope
responded to my Avebury Balloon Hoax posting re the CAA contact
I made?








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 12

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:20:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:17:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:23:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>Canadian Press

>><snip>

>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>Styles.

>>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>>and well.

>><snip>

>>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

>I have never seen the ISS, or made an effort to do so. However,
>it is reportedly a prominent object in the sky and is (at times)
>far brighter than stars and planets. It also moves across the
>sky as it orbits the Earth, so it show movement that does not
>follow the Earth's rotation, as stars do. Remember that this
>object is seen as a reflective object, so its brightness would
>depend on a number of factors related to the sky conditions and
>the angle of the sun.

>You ask if this might fool some into identifying it as a UFO,
>and I think the logical answer is that it could. However, those
>who are really investigating unknown lights in the sky (and
>that's really all this appears as with the naked eye) would
>certainly investigate the position of known planets and
>satellites (including the ISS) before claiming to have found
>some unknown object in the sky. This is one of the defining
>differences between those who are truly trying to solve this
>mystery and the "Crackpots" referred to in the subject line.
>(IMO)


Hi List,

I don't believe that the ISS is a cause for concern either,
though it might account for the odd UFO sighting. Had I read
this post earlier I would have mentioned it to Chris last night.
I also disagree with the 90 percent figure. I subscribe to
something closer to 70 percent.

Best,

Don Ledger

PS - I'm operating between two computers in two locations and
download to each. Perhaps someone can tell me if Nick Pope
responded to my Avebury Balloon Hoax posting re the CAA contact
I made?








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 12

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:04:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:05:27 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:12:35 EDT
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <>ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>>Subject:

>Toy Tape on RAWINS:

>I have a curiosity question, here, for David, regarding the so-
>called purple toy tape reported by Prof Moore. Sorry for asking
>this question if the answer is on your website or was mentioned
>in a previous post, but has the "purple toy tape with the
flower
>symbols", supposedly seen by Moore and his team in 1947, ever
>shown up in any photographs or movies of RAWIN targets (color
or
>black and white)?

Nobody has ever found the "purple toy tape with flower symbols"
in the Ramey photos or any other RAWIN target photo, including
the Air Force's mysterious, unnameable photoanalysis lab during
their 1994 Roswell "investigation."

Who knows?  Maybe it really did exist, but no surviving photos
show it: bad angles, bad lighting, target too small, whatever.

One interesting thing that Neil Morris did spy in the Ramey
photos, that had been previously overlooked, was twine tied onto
the neck of the balloon on the floor.  Although Neil
unfortunately inflated it into a mysterious anomalous "cable," a
string tied to the balloon neck is exactly what one would expect
to find.

However, Mack Brazel claimed not to find any string to support
the "foil and sticks" object he found, yet there it is, plain as
day in the photos (once you know where to look for it).  It
would have been rather hard for him to miss.  This is yet
another indication that what was in Ramey's office had nothing
at all to do with what Brazel really found and Brazel's story
was just a put-up job.

Ramey's early "hexagon" description, however, is the real
smoking gun of a prearranged RAWIN cover story.  Only an intact
RAWIN might ever resemble a hexagon.  The torn-up radar target
in his office would never generate such a description.


David Rudiak








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 13

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:29:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:40:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>Canadian Press

>><snip>

>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>Styles.

>>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>>and well.

>><snip>

>>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

>I have _never_ heard of the ISS being confused with a UFO.

>This sounds like a class project from Journalism 114a except
>that its otherwise fairly well written.

>More likely, its written from barstool 14b, the one closest to
>the seltzer bottle, and furthest from the books.


Oh c'mon Mr. Hatch, it's astonishing you could be so obviously
cloistered and dismayingly provincial. I've been accused
_myself_ of confusing the ISS with a UFO.

The rest of your charming, but rather predictable literary
smirk, is a portrait in irony given that our Mr. Tonnies has a
productively efficacious edge that you would snap up in a second
iff'n you could (as would I), and so should, perhaps, refrain
from casual desultory condescension, inappropriate aloofness,
and unjustified superciliousness in his regard. There is more
to gain with regard to what he's on about than there is to sneer
at, verily. Moreover, it's not helpful, it is an uncalled for
and uninformed admonition (incurring a non productive reaction),
and it is not a -little- insulting. Mr. Tonnies has not stepped
out of line at all...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com


AlienViewGroup [alienview.net]... An equal-opportunity
paranormalist association in affiliation with the Church of "It
Ain't what You Think!" and the ISI (Incomprehensiblely Self-
Indulgent)<g>.







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 13

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:29:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:40:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>Canadian Press

>><snip>

>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>Styles.

>>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>>and well.

>><snip>

>>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

>I have _never_ heard of the ISS being confused with a UFO.

>This sounds like a class project from Journalism 114a except
>that its otherwise fairly well written.

>More likely, its written from barstool 14b, the one closest to
>the seltzer bottle, and furthest from the books.


Oh c'mon Mr. Hatch, it's astonishing you could be so obviously
cloistered and dismayingly provincial. I've been accused
_myself_ of confusing the ISS with a UFO.

The rest of your charming, but rather predictable literary
smirk, is a portrait in irony given that our Mr. Tonnies has a
productively efficacious edge that you would snap up in a second
iff'n you could (as would I), and so should, perhaps, refrain
from casual desultory condescension, inappropriate aloofness,
and unjustified superciliousness in his regard. There is more
to gain with regard to what he's on about than there is to sneer
at, verily. Moreover, it's not helpful, it is an uncalled for
and uninformed admonition (incurring a non productive reaction),
and it is not a -little- insulting. Mr. Tonnies has not stepped
out of line at all...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com


AlienViewGroup [alienview.net]... An equal-opportunity
paranormalist association in affiliation with the Church of "It
Ain't what You Think!" and the ISI (Incomprehensiblely Self-
Indulgent)<g>.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 13

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:51:58 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>There are a few questions that I would like to ask you regarding
>>the ML307.

>>First, how do you know that the ML307 drawing issued by the Air
>>Force report is authentic?

>Instead of asking some question with no obvious point, why not
>just make your point? Is it that the AF cleverly altered the
>original so that we would only think Ramey's object was a rawin
>when it was not? If it is, that is way too conspiratorial for
>me, frankly unbelievable.

David,

I thought the point was very clear which was within the question
itself but certainly not the one you propose. I will interpret
your answer as you don't no however, I think you should strongly
consider the possibility that the SC-D-14407 drawing is a red
herring for the following reasons:

First, it was issued as part of the Air Force report which right
from the get go is suspect..

Second, sometime ago I corresponded with you regarding the
historical account of the drawing where I had indicated that the
legend on the drawing omitted the fact that there was a Model
307A/AP which was one of the primary models in the development
of the target. Professor Moore made no mention of this as well.
You had indicated that the ommission was no big deal. It doesn't
change the outcome. I disagreed with you on this point from the
stance that such an omission would not be acceptable on an
engineering drawing, especially one that the Signal Laboratory
would issue out.

Since our discussion on this I received a copy of Chapert IX of
the  TM 1-235 War Department Technical Manual titled "Radar
Winds-Aloft Observation printed May 1945. On the front page of
this chapter the Rawin Target is depicted hanging from a
balloon. This without a doubt is the official military reference
source for the Rawin Target. The manual clearly identifies the
the ML307A/AP and ML307B/AP as two primary targets, so why
doesn't the drawing mention anything about the ML307A/AP. The
drawing only lists the ML307/AP and ML307B/AP. You might argue
the point that they had just forgotten to put it the drawing but
this would be a very weak agrument. Major model numbers are not
just forgotten. You can omit a screw or a bolt but not an entire
model by accident.

Third, the Air Force report listed the museum where they had
obtained a copy the drawing. I attempted to get the second
drawing which was suppose to show the exploded view of the
ML307C/AP. I spoke to the curator of the museum who was the same
person cited in the report. What she told me, and I have an
email from her confirming this, there never was any such drawing
located at this museum. And further to this she did not know why
her name was mentioned in the Air Force report.

These are three very good reasons why I won't trust the
information on the drawing and three good reasons why you
shouldn't. The TM 1-235 manaul is the only official source to
compare other information to such as the construction of the
target etc.

>>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the first
>>place. As Neil , Ed and myself have tried to explain to you many
>>times, this just won't work. The assembly instructions of the
>>target clearly state the following: "The target is examined to
>>see that the sides and corners are smooth and square. Any tears,
>>loose sticks, or loose seams are repaired with tape applied to
>>the paper surface rather than to the foil whenever possible".
>>Now do you think for one minute that they would design a target
>>so that you have to two foil sides glued together when they know
>>that using tape on the foil side is not a good idea? I think
>>not!

>You can argue all you want that it never happened, but the
>photos I keep pointing you to of other rawins clearly show white
>strips on foil. Again:

>www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html
>www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_launch_July1948.html

>That you and Neil continue to ignore absolutely clear
>photographic proof that you are wrong continues to amaze me.

David, you are evading my questions. You have not provided one
good solid technical reason why two foil sides would be glued
together since that is the only way you can have white stripes.
Why would you have some sides with a white strip and not all of
the sides?

The photo of the Mogal launch does not prove anything. This
photo was taken on July 22, 1948, one year after the fact. I
will also add that the Mogul launch photo came from the Air
Force report which as mentioned earlier is a questionable source
of information as you see later on in this response. Take a look
at how the sun is casting shadows in various areas of the photo.
You will see some decrephanicies.

There is only one official drawing that can be relied upon and
that is the assembly drawing of the target in the TM 1-235
manual. It shows very clearly that there are no foil to foil
joints or white strips. Couple this with the in-depth scans I
received from UTA of the target photographed on July 9, 1947 and
there is no question about it, there are no foil to foil joints
or white strips. It's just not there.

>>Third, what would you say is be the height of the panel resting
>>on Dubois's knee?

>I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
>bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
>35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
>on this edge.

It looks like we have a problem here. We both agreed that the
width of the carpet stripes is 1", 1.0143" to be exact but
we'll call it an inch. If you poject the carpet stripes in the
RDB(Smiling) photo and count the number of stripes from the
lower part of the stick along the bottom to the left edge you
will count a total of 34 stripes, give or take a stripe or two.
Granted there are folds dipping up and down and this will
probably add a couple of inches for a total of 36".

Do you you see the problem here. There cannot be a panel with
two sides 36". And yes, the bottom part of the panel is torn and
we may not be seeing the complete panel. But lets assume that
the bottom part of the panel was wider, than the stick on the
right hand side of the panel would have be longer than 36". But
this wouldn't make sense either because there shouldn't be any
stick longer than 36" except for the strut that runs through the
center of the target which would be 48". But, if we were seeing
that part of the target, the configuation of the panel on
Dubois's knee would look much different than what the photo is
depicting.

It doesn't add up does it?

>Fourth, what part of the rawin target does the panel on Dubois's
>>knee represent with respect to the drawing issued by the Air
>>Force?

>It is one of the two large triangular foil/paper panels in the
>drawing that the AF so cleverly altered so as to confuse us.
>Specifically it is the triangular panel labeled "C" forming the
>"roof" of the left-hand corner in the drawing. A white strip
>sheath for the framework stick is very clearly shown on the
>drawing, including a cut-way showing the stick inside of it
>(labeled "12"). Other white strips are also clearly shown on
>this schematic, such as over the the right side, with a stick
>labeled "11" showing threw another cut-way in a white sheath.

This is new. This is the first time I have heard you mention
anything about the AF altering the drawing. On what basis do you
arrive at that consclusion? It looks like you have just
confirmed what I was saying, the drawing is not to be trusted.

Now lets see if I have this right. Your taking the design
information from a drawing of an ML307C/AP traget which has been
cleverly altered by the AF and appling it against a model built
in 1944 and saying that these two targets are the same with
respect to the white stripes. So here we have a target the
ML307B/AP that was modified in 1951 and than renamed the
ML307C/AP, if one can believe that even this information is
correct because it comes from the legend information on the
drawing which is where Professor Moore got his information. You
want me and the list to believe that these white strips that you
see on the drawing existed on the ML307B/AP target, seven years
prior. That's a leap of faith.

Allow me to add another fact here. In the Army Technical manual
TM 11-487G which was printed in April of 1951 and is labelled as
"The Directory of Signal Corps Equipments (Meteorological
Equipment)", there is no mention what so ever of an ML307C/AP.
The manual superceded TM 11-487, 2 October 1944 as it pretained
to meteorological equipment. The ML307C/AP target designation
came out Jan 8, 1951, lots of time to make into the updated
training manual. When this is coupled with the fact that the
museum never had a copy of the ML307C/AP drawing, plus the fact
that the historical information of the target's development is
incorrect than it would appear that the ML307C/AP drawing never
existed except for the purposes of the AF Roswell report to
debunk the Roswell incident. The drawing is a red herring.

David, there is only one official target assembly drawing and as
I have stated earlier, there are no white stripes shown. The AF
report information is there for a reason and that is to convince
people that the information on that target coincides with the
FTW Photos so that it supports the theory that the debris
photographed was a rawin target and the AF have done a very good
job of it. You are convinced!

>>Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
>>ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
>>were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
>>account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
>>for this?

>Sorry, what's this got to do with what's in Ramey's office?

>Among my personal calculations was seeing what happened if the
>balloon rose and fell exactly as fast as Flight #5 the next day.
>If the balloon had risen significantly slower because of
>attached Rawins, all that would have happened is that it would
>have ended up even further away from the Foster Ranch crash
>site.

This question was a slight digression but germain to the issue
indirectly. It was a fact that was stated in the manual and than
I wondered if this variable was taken into account. My
understanding was that several targets were involved in the
Mogul train. That being the case it would play an important role
in how the acsent rate of the mogul train. It's to important a
variable to omit in the calculations. I wonder what professor
Moore's response would be to this. I'm sure he would have an
answer.


Best Regards,

Andrew







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   Oct > Oct 13

                               Remote Viewing?

From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:32:43 -0400
Subject: Remote Viewing?


Hi List,

About 32 years ago I started to discover paranormal phenomena.
Since than I've met very talented people - men and women who
were 'paranormal'. I had my own experiences - E.S.P.- that were
also very special. In the last few years I've dicovered more
about paranormal phenomena in the former Sovjet Union. This year
I've seen FOIA - documents about remote viewing.

I understand that the US and some other countries used talented
people for special missions - to know more. Astral projection
was used for political reasons, etc.!

It seems that remote viewing was also used to know more about
alien-activity! Than, one day, I heard of the activity of CSETI,
and some of their experts using remote viewing - Tim Rifat &
others.

But I think there are more centers involved with these kind of
experiments.

Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
will help our research, and the research of other authors.


Thierry Jonnaert
UFO-RESEARCH &
PARANORMAL PHENOMENA
Belgium







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:51:58 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>There are a few questions that I would like to ask you regarding
>>the ML307.

>>First, how do you know that the ML307 drawing issued by the Air
>>Force report is authentic?

>Instead of asking some question with no obvious point, why not
>just make your point? Is it that the AF cleverly altered the
>original so that we would only think Ramey's object was a rawin
>when it was not? If it is, that is way too conspiratorial for
>me, frankly unbelievable.

David,

I thought the point was very clear which was within the question
itself but certainly not the one you propose. I will interpret
your answer as you don't no however, I think you should strongly
consider the possibility that the SC-D-14407 drawing is a red
herring for the following reasons:

First, it was issued as part of the Air Force report which right
from the get go is suspect..

Second, sometime ago I corresponded with you regarding the
historical account of the drawing where I had indicated that the
legend on the drawing omitted the fact that there was a Model
307A/AP which was one of the primary models in the development
of the target. Professor Moore made no mention of this as well.
You had indicated that the ommission was no big deal. It doesn't
change the outcome. I disagreed with you on this point from the
stance that such an omission would not be acceptable on an
engineering drawing, especially one that the Signal Laboratory
would issue out.

Since our discussion on this I received a copy of Chapert IX of
the  TM 1-235 War Department Technical Manual titled "Radar
Winds-Aloft Observation printed May 1945. On the front page of
this chapter the Rawin Target is depicted hanging from a
balloon. This without a doubt is the official military reference
source for the Rawin Target. The manual clearly identifies the
the ML307A/AP and ML307B/AP as two primary targets, so why
doesn't the drawing mention anything about the ML307A/AP. The
drawing only lists the ML307/AP and ML307B/AP. You might argue
the point that they had just forgotten to put it the drawing but
this would be a very weak agrument. Major model numbers are not
just forgotten. You can omit a screw or a bolt but not an entire
model by accident.

Third, the Air Force report listed the museum where they had
obtained a copy the drawing. I attempted to get the second
drawing which was suppose to show the exploded view of the
ML307C/AP. I spoke to the curator of the museum who was the same
person cited in the report. What she told me, and I have an
email from her confirming this, there never was any such drawing
located at this museum. And further to this she did not know why
her name was mentioned in the Air Force report.

These are three very good reasons why I won't trust the
information on the drawing and three good reasons why you
shouldn't. The TM 1-235 manaul is the only official source to
compare other information to such as the construction of the
target etc.

>>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the first
>>place. As Neil , Ed and myself have tried to explain to you many
>>times, this just won't work. The assembly instructions of the
>>target clearly state the following: "The target is examined to
>>see that the sides and corners are smooth and square. Any tears,
>>loose sticks, or loose seams are repaired with tape applied to
>>the paper surface rather than to the foil whenever possible".
>>Now do you think for one minute that they would design a target
>>so that you have to two foil sides glued together when they know
>>that using tape on the foil side is not a good idea? I think
>>not!

>You can argue all you want that it never happened, but the
>photos I keep pointing you to of other rawins clearly show white
>strips on foil. Again:

>www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html
>www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_launch_July1948.html

>That you and Neil continue to ignore absolutely clear
>photographic proof that you are wrong continues to amaze me.

David, you are evading my questions. You have not provided one
good solid technical reason why two foil sides would be glued
together since that is the only way you can have white stripes.
Why would you have some sides with a white strip and not all of
the sides?

The photo of the Mogal launch does not prove anything. This
photo was taken on July 22, 1948, one year after the fact. I
will also add that the Mogul launch photo came from the Air
Force report which as mentioned earlier is a questionable source
of information as you see later on in this response. Take a look
at how the sun is casting shadows in various areas of the photo.
You will see some decrephanicies.

There is only one official drawing that can be relied upon and
that is the assembly drawing of the target in the TM 1-235
manual. It shows very clearly that there are no foil to foil
joints or white strips. Couple this with the in-depth scans I
received from UTA of the target photographed on July 9, 1947 and
there is no question about it, there are no foil to foil joints
or white strips. It's just not there.

>>Third, what would you say is be the height of the panel resting
>>on Dubois's knee?

>I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
>bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
>35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
>on this edge.

It looks like we have a problem here. We both agreed that the
width of the carpet stripes is 1", 1.0143" to be exact but
we'll call it an inch. If you poject the carpet stripes in the
RDB(Smiling) photo and count the number of stripes from the
lower part of the stick along the bottom to the left edge you
will count a total of 34 stripes, give or take a stripe or two.
Granted there are folds dipping up and down and this will
probably add a couple of inches for a total of 36".

Do you you see the problem here. There cannot be a panel with
two sides 36". And yes, the bottom part of the panel is torn and
we may not be seeing the complete panel. But lets assume that
the bottom part of the panel was wider, than the stick on the
right hand side of the panel would have be longer than 36". But
this wouldn't make sense either because there shouldn't be any
stick longer than 36" except for the strut that runs through the
center of the target which would be 48". But, if we were seeing
that part of the target, the configuation of the panel on
Dubois's knee would look much different than what the photo is
depicting.

It doesn't add up does it?

>Fourth, what part of the rawin target does the panel on Dubois's
>>knee represent with respect to the drawing issued by the Air
>>Force?

>It is one of the two large triangular foil/paper panels in the
>drawing that the AF so cleverly altered so as to confuse us.
>Specifically it is the triangular panel labeled "C" forming the
>"roof" of the left-hand corner in the drawing. A white strip
>sheath for the framework stick is very clearly shown on the
>drawing, including a cut-way showing the stick inside of it
>(labeled "12"). Other white strips are also clearly shown on
>this schematic, such as over the the right side, with a stick
>labeled "11" showing threw another cut-way in a white sheath.

This is new. This is the first time I have heard you mention
anything about the AF altering the drawing. On what basis do you
arrive at that consclusion? It looks like you have just
confirmed what I was saying, the drawing is not to be trusted.

Now lets see if I have this right. Your taking the design
information from a drawing of an ML307C/AP traget which has been
cleverly altered by the AF and appling it against a model built
in 1944 and saying that these two targets are the same with
respect to the white stripes. So here we have a target the
ML307B/AP that was modified in 1951 and than renamed the
ML307C/AP, if one can believe that even this information is
correct because it comes from the legend information on the
drawing which is where Professor Moore got his information. You
want me and the list to believe that these white strips that you
see on the drawing existed on the ML307B/AP target, seven years
prior. That's a leap of faith.

Allow me to add another fact here. In the Army Technical manual
TM 11-487G which was printed in April of 1951 and is labelled as
"The Directory of Signal Corps Equipments (Meteorological
Equipment)", there is no mention what so ever of an ML307C/AP.
The manual superceded TM 11-487, 2 October 1944 as it pretained
to meteorological equipment. The ML307C/AP target designation
came out Jan 8, 1951, lots of time to make into the updated
training manual. When this is coupled with the fact that the
museum never had a copy of the ML307C/AP drawing, plus the fact
that the historical information of the target's development is
incorrect than it would appear that the ML307C/AP drawing never
existed except for the purposes of the AF Roswell report to
debunk the Roswell incident. The drawing is a red herring.

David, there is only one official target assembly drawing and as
I have stated earlier, there are no white stripes shown. The AF
report information is there for a reason and that is to convince
people that the information on that target coincides with the
FTW Photos so that it supports the theory that the debris
photographed was a rawin target and the AF have done a very good
job of it. You are convinced!

>>Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
>>ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
>>were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
>>account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
>>for this?

>Sorry, what's this got to do with what's in Ramey's office?

>Among my personal calculations was seeing what happened if the
>balloon rose and fell exactly as fast as Flight #5 the next day.
>If the balloon had risen significantly slower because of
>attached Rawins, all that would have happened is that it would
>have ended up even further away from the Foster Ranch crash
>site.

This question was a slight digression but germain to the issue
indirectly. It was a fact that was stated in the manual and than
I wondered if this variable was taken into account. My
understanding was that several targets were involved in the
Mogul train. That being the case it would play an important role
in how the acsent rate of the mogul train. It's to important a
variable to omit in the calculations. I wonder what professor
Moore's response would be to this. I'm sure he would have an
answer.


Best Regards,

Andrew







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   Oct > Oct 13

                        Rumours About UK UFO Magazine

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:44:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:58:25 -0400
Subject: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine


Dear List Members,

A rumour seems to have started that I am to be the new editor of
UFO Magazine in the UK. I would like to inform you that this is
not the case.

Myself and one ot two others have been assisting UFO Magazine
after the untimely death of its founder and editor Graham
Birdsall. Between us we have ensured the short term survival of
UFO Magazine but its ultimate fate lies in the hands of Graham's
wife Christine, who quite naturally is still grieving for him.

I don't know where these rumours have started but I'd like to
put an end to this speculation once and for all.


Regards,

Philip Mantle.
www.beyondroswell.com







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   Oct > Oct 13

                       Close Encounter In Shag Harbour

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:43:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:49:46 -0400
Subject: Close Encounter In Shag Harbour


Source: The Halifax Herald - Canada

http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2003/10/13/f183.raw.html


Close Encounter In Shag Harbour
By Brian Medel - Yarmouth Bureau

Monday, October 13, 2003

UFO buffs gather at spot where strange craft allegedly sighted
in 1967

By Brian Medel/Yarmouth Bureau

Shag Harbour - A busload of UFO zealots landed in Shag Harbour
on Sunday afternoon to see for themselves the spot of ocean
where some think a UFO crashed 36 years ago.

Sunday's excursion was a field trip for nearly 40 UFO
researchers and true believers attending a Dartmouth symposium
dedicated to airborne unidentified objects.

The Halifax International UFO Symposium was held at Alderney
Landing. Local filmmaker and UFO buff Michael MacDonald made a
previous documentary on the world-famous Shag Harbour UFO
mystery of Oct. 4, 1967, and filmed the weekend symposium,
including the field trip, for a two-hour TV documentary he's
making for the Space Channel.

Antonio Huneeus, a Chilean-born journalist who now lives in
Brooklyn, N.Y., was on the bus Sunday.

The science writer, considered one of the world's top UFO
experts, referred to the incident of June 14, 1947, in which a
UFO is said to have crashed 120 kilometres north of Roswell,
N.M., leaving behind unusual debris found by rancher Mac Brazel.

"Most people are familiar with the Roswell case and there have
been another few so-called UFO crash cases," Mr. Huneeus said.

"But what's missing in all these other cases is no official
paper trail.

"Shag Harbour is unique in the world. It is the only case of a
UFO accident where . . . we have an official paper trail. And
there's no dispute about the authenticity of those documents,"
he said.

The Shag Harbour incident was at first believed to have been an
airplane crash. A bright light was seen crashing into the sea,
near the southwestern tip of Shelburne County, by several
residents and a couple of Mounties driving in their cruiser.

Fishermen later found a thick scum on the water and detected a
strange sulphur-like odour.

"The documents, they basically are police records and coast
guard records," Mr. Huneeus said.

"But they never debunked it. They didn't try to say it was a
meteorite or something else. It remains unknown to this day."

The columnist for Fate magazine, a popular journal of the
paranormal, is convinced the Shag Harbour incident really
happened.

"Based on all the evidence . . . it seems to be a UFO. You must
be somewhat skeptical because many reports of sightings are
nonsense.

"But not this case. This case is very solid."

Art McLaughlin, a mechanical engineer from Halifax, has been to
Shag Harbour three times and is also convinced the sighting in
1967 was that of a UFO.

"I believe it's not of our world. It seems as though the powers
that be or the government seems not to want to release certain
things, so that's the intriguing part of it," he said.

"Once (Shag Harbour) gets the publicity . . . that Roswell gets,
I think it will be quickly recognized that this is a much more
solid case," said Mr. McLaughlin. "Not to put down Roswell . . .
I think it really happened."







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   Oct > Oct 13

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:45:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:25:51 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 6:39:38 -0400
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story


>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>>To: <UFOupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:13:23 +0200
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>>To: UFOupdates@sympatico.ca
>>>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:14:10 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

><snip>

>>>The Reuters extract also clearly pushes the thought that the
>>>debris has the appearance of balloon/target debris but
>>>_explicitly_ states that _no_one_ at FWAAF could identify it
>>>as such, and this statement is clearly attributed to Gen Ramey
>>>and though the release is issued by Maj Kirton, literal quotes,
>>>which they are in the release, wouldn't have been issued without
>>>authority of the source, Kirton would have been risking his
>>>position if he hadn't got Ramey's clearance to use the quote.

>>How can you maintain that nobody could indentify the Rawin
>>target, when Irving Newton did so at once, in the office of
>>General Ramey? The earlier statement of Major Kirton is of no
>>help at all here since it was a sort of first draft of the
>>balloon story.


Gildas, Jan, Dave Morton and List,

_I'm_ not maintaining this, Gen Ramey _states_ this in the
release to Reuters, Kirton presents the release as a _literal_
quote ie he's saying this is what Ramey has said, not his
(Kirton's) interpretation of what Ramey said.


>>Another question: how can you think one minute that General
>>Ramey would have shown to the press real debris of a UFO,
>>whether you admit the Mogul story or the balloon cover up of a
>>UFO? Cannot you see how your absurd is your belief, in both
>>cases?

It's as absurd as Blanchard issuing a press release saying RAAF
had recovered a "flying disc" in the first place? That's if
you're trying to push the "security" angle, i.e. "it would all
be Top Secret stuff" etc.

But would it... at _that_ time?

If a general security directive had been in place regarding and
 classifying anything remotely connected with the "discs" at the
time Roswell came to see the light of media day, ie before late
afternoon of July 8th, Blanchard would have been a fool to have
released any hint of Mack Brazel's find, agreed?. As Blanchard
continued his career in the Air Force onward and upwards after
Roswell it must be true to say he didn't make any such error of
judgement by breaking any such directive. Can it then be
surmised that a) He felt free to report factually, the events as
they had happened and b) At that time the debris wasn't seen to
be anything else other than what it appeared to be, curious
debris that couldn't be identified as anything of "ours".
Further, if we assume no such directive was in force at RAAF
then can we also assume a similar situation existed further up
the command chain at FWAAF as they would be the headquarters who
would issue any such orders down the wire to RAAF. I think
support for a similar situation at FWAAF is given by the open
statement to Reuters in that, ok, it looked like it might be a
balloon/target but we've checked that out, we can't ID it as
that, and we don't know what the heck it is. It's also plainly
obvious that after this, as the AP report spread out across not
only the US but the world, some-one woke up to the fact that,
this situation was getting a little out of hand and, oops, there
are some serious implications here?, particularly if the Ramey
message which we can now time, like the pictures, at aprox
3.15pm contains the dramatic information that not only was the
debris truly "not of this world" but whatever it had been, also
had passengers and they weren't Russian!.

So..

At some point earlier in the afternoon of the 8th July, FWAAF
was happy enough to chat to Reuters about the debris _and_
confirm they couldn't identify it, so in this light what was so
different then about letting in a photographer from your local
newspaper to take some photos of the odd junk?. It would be a
little more PR for the base and Ramey himself, he'd only been in
the same local paper, The Star Telegram, a couple of days
before, pictured spade in hand if I recall, at the foundation
laying of some new base buildings.

What is interesting now about Bond's photoshoot is that having
identified the time that he took his photo's as being aprox
3.15pm FW time. This means that the Star Telegram had to have
known about the debris being in Ramey's office _well_ _before_
the first AP report of the story that hit their wires at 3.16pm
Fort Worth time, the FWAAF was aprox a 30 min drive from the
ST's offices. We have all accepted the AP's version of things as
the de'facto standard without question. They were after all one
of, if not _the_ largest news outfit of the time, but this also
has it's down side when looking back.

Because a large number of the newspapers who took the AP wire
service, all these papers reports were singing from the same
song sheet, many editorialized the stories, but they were still
all dipping into the same pool of information as fed by AP. The
Reuters report I refer to at length, throws light on a different
version of things with extra and unique information. The AP, it
seems didn't have _all_ the story. But because of their
dominance in the news market much of the story we see left in
the record tends to be reflected from their perspective. This
could also be said for other papers which relied only on one or
other of the major news services, UP, INS, for their external
news input.

We have accepted the media story of Roswell started with the AP
report of 2.16pm CMT, it did for the media who took the AP wire
service but Bond Johnson timed in Ramey's office as the first AP
wire went out indicates news of the debris transfer from Roswell
was know, at least by the Star Telegram, before this time.

Using these timings it suggests Bond Johnson photo's were taken
before the AAF top brass in Washington may have been aware of
the developing situation at RAAF and FWAAF. When AP with their
blanket national network coverage relayed the details of the
RAAF press release and struck the match that lit the news
firestorm that followed. It was only then that they woke up to
what was happening and only then belatedly closed the lid down
on events.

Where in Marcel's testimony, which covers the timeline up to the
afternoon when the photo's were taken, does he discuss any high
security status given to the debris?, and he's the guy who
recovered it and transported it to Fort Worth. At the end of the
day he's still not told anything by Ramey, only to return to his
duties at Roswell.

Blanchard and Ramey initially, seemed ignorant of any important
security issues related to the debris find, they were both
_initially_ open with the press and their enquiries, but this
stance reverses with the events of the afternoon of the 8th and
the intervention from Washington.

>>Thank you to David Rudiak, for repeating courageously basic
>>facts. Anyone with common sense can see on the pictures balloon
>>and target debris.

>>Neil's discourse looks to me like a clever exercise in confusing
>>matters.

Is this a clever exercise in confusion?

Please look at this image to see the area of the Marcel Right
photo I intend to discuss, specifically the circled area.

http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/MR.jpg

This shows one of the foil sheets with white edges that David
maintains is the debris from an ML307 radar target, it looks
like it, yes... until you get in closer and take a good look.

This next image shows the area circled in close up and in
particular the end of one of these "white edge" strips.

http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/image4.jpg

Again circled is the area of interest, this shows quite clearly
(contrast enhanced image next to it) a bar type fastener
attached to the "white edge" material and the remains of some
type of material still in place around the bar fastener. I
include a couple of example images of the type of fastener I
believe we are looking at in the image in use in my home at the
time I put the image together.

I now ask you to find this fastener or feature on the original
engineering drawing of the Army Signal Corps ML307 radar target.
The drawing is here:

http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/ml307eng-drawing.jpg

But before you spend a fruitless time looking can I tell you it
isn't there. There is nothing remotely like it on the drawing,
this item in the Marcel Right photograph is therefore _not_ part
of an ML307.

I don't find this confusing, it's just a matter of elimination.
ML307 debris would still be consistent with it's design drawings
even if it were bent or busted. But this debris isn't there!.

You can also try and find this feature on firstly a picture of
an ML307 being launched on July 10th at FWAAF, this is part of
one of the pictures taken by the Star Telegram on that Thursday
morning but it wasn't used in the following day's paper.

http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/FW-ML307-10thJuly1947.jpg


Or this picture of Charles Moore's sample ML307 produced he
believes around 1953.

http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/Moore-ML307typeC.jpg

Happy hunting.....because again, the feature isn't there.

>
>Good Grief! Anyone heard of journalistic license? This is where
>many ufologists get trapped. A lot of this stuff goes through
>the journalistic meat grinder, and then is taken by some here as
>truth.

>The statement about no one being able to identify a Rawin target
>is probably a canard. A way for General Ramey to introduce
>Newton to the reporters. Geez!

>Does everyone read newspaper literally? Come on!

No, but statements are given out "literally" by third parties,
check out any number of spokespersons reading out statements on
behalf of celebs on TV these days. Their words relayed by a
third party.

>This was a
>presentation to the press, there was at least some prior
>preparation. Why is Newton there waiting in the wings?

It was undoubtedly a prepared statement by Ramey given out
verbally by Kirton, and as such would have had to have been
approved by Ramey.

Notice too how it is echoed in content by the Dallas FBI
teletype some hours later which also says that though the debris
resembled a balloon/target, consultation with Wright Field "had
not bourne out this belief".

>In my experience in meteorology, 16 years, in various locations,
>releasing thousands of balloons under all kinds of weather
>conditions, and using diverse instruments, there are many in the
>Field Artillery who had never seen a meteorological section,
>even though the artillery was the prime consumer of our met
>data. Soldiers would continually find our radiosondes all over
>the range, and even though our instruments carried instructions
>which said dispose of the item, and would go on a big hunt to
>find us and bring the thing back to us. Most were unaware of
>what a met section looked like and had never seen a radiosonde
>before.

>The same would be true for most of the most of the guys at an
>Air Force headquarters.

The Star Telegram published one of 3 photo's taken out FWAAF on
the morning of July 10th showing the assembly and launch of an
ML307 and pilot balloon out at the base together with the SCR-
584 standard tracking radar unit used to follow it. The ML307's
were a standard stores items and as FWAAF was a headquarters
unit, I'm sure they would have boxes of them in stock. It's
interesting to note that the ST story relates that some of their
readers living near the base had reported these strange things
floating through the sky and the story was in part to explain
the source of the mystery objects. (note they weren't reported
as "discs")

>Unfortunately, much that has been written here on balloons, and
>rawin target, to be most generous, is incorrect.

Such as ??

>Major Kitron was an intelligence officer, of course, he would
>know about weather data and it sources!

An Intelligence Officer just like Jesse Marcel....

You might like to note that Jesse Marcel went on at least one
Radar Training Course, one of the elements of that course was
"Basic Radar". We have found a contemporary AAF training manual
which too has a "Basic Radar" module and in explaining just how
radar works it uses in an example of how radio waves are
reflected an ML307 radar target, they name it by it's model #
and also show a photograph of it. Now I'm not saying this is
_the_ training manual Jesse Marcel used but these things were
centrally produced and why re-invent the wheel for each training
course when imparting general theoretical principles such as in
a "Basic Radar" module.

>"Kirton would have been risking his position if he hadn't got
>Ramey's clearance to use the quote." Oh, please! Have you guys
>been in the military? Kitron was duty officer on that date just
>informally talking to reporters after being up all night.n
>Apparently only the Fort Worth newspapers and Reuters carried
>some of what he said. These guys were probably the early birds
>who got there before Kirton went off duty.

The opinion about press release protocol comes from an Army
veteran who served as a base PIO in the early 50's and who's
commanding officer was ranked General.

Kirton was also quoting Ramey literally, are you saying he would
dare make up literal quotes for release to the press and
attribute these fictitious quotes directly to his own commanding
General?


Did Kirton have a death wish?.


I don't think so.


Neil







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   Oct > Oct 13

                     The Truth & the Proof Are Out There

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:28:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:31:15 -0400
Subject: The Truth & the Proof Are Out There


Source: The Staten Island Advance - New York

http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/1065966442150970.xml

A conference on abductions draws 100 believers to a Wagner
college classroom

UFOs: The Truth & the Proof Are Out There

October 12, 2003
By Heidi J. Shrager
Staten Island Advance

About 11 years ago, at 5:30 a.m., a Great Kills man named Andrew
woke up to find his entire house shaking.

When his wife looked out the window of their townhouse, she
screamed at the sight of a metallic disk with blinking white
lights, hovering about 40 feet away. In an instant, the object
zoomed away and became a small red light in the distance.

"We're not crazy," said the conservatively dressed 40-year-old
who didn't give his full name for fear of being ostracized.
"We're both fairly educated; we hold jobs," he added, between
bursts of nervous laughter.

The couple was among more than 100 people who showed up at
Wagner College yesterday for a conference on UFO abductions.

Even though their home is attached to their neighbors, the
couple, afraid of being called insane, chose not to tell them
what had happened.

A few times during their close encounter, Andrew, a construction
supervisor, and his wife, an administrative assistant, said they
felt like several beings were in the bedroom with them.

"It was like friends visiting," he said. "Some of them were real
scary."

THE 'SCIENCE' OF UFOS

The event trumpeted the September publication of "Sight Unseen,
Science, UFO Invisibility, and Transgenic Beings," a book
written by New York science documentary filmmaker Carol Rainey,
and Budd Hopkins, director and founder of the Manhattan-based
Intruders Foundation, one of the only institutions that
specializes in alien abductions.

"The book tries to take the para out of paranormal," explained
Hopkins, one of the country's leading UFO researchers and
authors, to an audience visibly enamored with the charismatic,
gray-haired abstract artist.

Ms. Rainey's presentation, like her contribution to the book,
aimed to bridge the gap between mainstream science and the
science of UFO abductions. She hopes that the former will one
day catch up to the latter.

To open her discussion, she told of a recent scientific
discovery in Central America, where a tiny wasp takes complete
control of a spider's mind and body, without the spider ever
knowing.

At first, it sounds like typical Discovery Channel antics: The
wasp stings the spider into paralysis and lays an egg into its
abdomen, which soon hatches into larva that feeds off the
spider's nutrients.

But just before the spider dies and is eaten by its predator,
the wasp takes mysterious control over its behavior. The spider
stops spinning its normal web, and instead creates a new web
that is the perfect anchor from which the wasp larva will hang
its cocoon.

In the analogy, the wasp exerts mind control over the spider,
just as aliens do over their human abductees, but scientists
don't know exactly how, she said. The difference is, they
receive copious funding to study the wasp-spider phenomenon, and
not a penny to study aliens.

"Cutting-edge science might hold some clue to what is going on
in abduction phenomena," she said while she showed slides of
scientific wonders, like the rabbit recently implanted with the
DNA of a jellyfish, traversable wormholes, and a diagram of an
optical tweezer which lifts molecules using a beam of laser
light, a small-scale version of spaceships beaming up their
abductees.

Ms. Rainey and Hopkins, who are married, focused their talks on
the book's two main topics, invisibility and transgenics, or the
interbreeding of two species, because aliens are in the process
of mastering these endeavors, they say.

"Aliens seem to prefer to run a covert operation," said Ms.
Rainey to her audience, between slides of the latest U.S.
military technology of invisible camouflage suits and scientific
explanations of how invisibility works. "It makes good business
sense."

Later, Hopkins played an audiotape of three women under hypnosis
who described being in a spacecraft and holding strange-looking
babies they had given birth to, with scraggly hair, tiny limbs
and a big head, that seemed half human, half alien.

RISKING RIDICULE

After the four-hour conference, dozens of people who had
traveled to Wagner from as far away as Connecticut,
Massachusetts and Illinois, lined up to get their books signed
by Hopkins and Ms. Rainey.

Dennis Anderson, an astronomy professor at Wagner and the
planetarium director, who organized the conference, said he
briefly worried it would be canceled when two faculty members
sent angry e-mails that the school was hosting a conference on
such a fringe topic.

Hopkins publicly thanked Anderson, an Intruders Foundation board
member, for risking ridicule and derision from faculty in
hosting the event at Wagner, apparently the first New York
academic institution to do so. (In the summer of 2001, Wagner
hosted a series of three lectures on UFOs.)

It provides "an excellent chance to present the evidence for
this phenomenon to a larger audience in an academic setting,"
said Hopkins.

One researcher speaking at the conference who lends key
credibility to the field is Dr. John E. Mack, professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Mack has analyzed
hundreds of abductees and concluded that the consistency of
their stories, injuries and marks on their skin, strongly
suggests they are mentally stable people who have had true alien
encounters.

Another credible figure on hand was "Ed Reynolds," a former Air
Force engineer and now a college physics professor in Chicago,
who never reveals his true name when he tells of his own
abduction experience, which happened in an Outback Steakhouse
restaurant in Illinois.

"It really irks me when I hear scientists say 'Everything's been
discovered,'" Reynolds said to a room of people nodding their
heads and murmuring in agreement. "Sooner or later, we'll solve
all these problems, like the aliens have, and take our place in
the universe, or at least the galaxy."

Heidi J. Shrager is a news reporter for the Advance. She can be
reached at shrager@siadvance.com.






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 13

                     The Truth & the Proof Are Out There

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:28:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:31:15 -0400
Subject: The Truth & the Proof Are Out There


Source: The Staten Island Advance - New York

http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/1065966442150970.xml

A conference on abductions draws 100 believers to a Wagner
college classroom

UFOs: The Truth & the Proof Are Out There

October 12, 2003
By Heidi J. Shrager
Staten Island Advance

About 11 years ago, at 5:30 a.m., a Great Kills man named Andrew
woke up to find his entire house shaking.

When his wife looked out the window of their townhouse, she
screamed at the sight of a metallic disk with blinking white
lights, hovering about 40 feet away. In an instant, the object
zoomed away and became a small red light in the distance.

"We're not crazy," said the conservatively dressed 40-year-old
who didn't give his full name for fear of being ostracized.
"We're both fairly educated; we hold jobs," he added, between
bursts of nervous laughter.

The couple was among more than 100 people who showed up at
Wagner College yesterday for a conference on UFO abductions.

Even though their home is attached to their neighbors, the
couple, afraid of being called insane, chose not to tell them
what had happened.

A few times during their close encounter, Andrew, a construction
supervisor, and his wife, an administrative assistant, said they
felt like several beings were in the bedroom with them.

"It was like friends visiting," he said. "Some of them were real
scary."

THE 'SCIENCE' OF UFOS

The event trumpeted the September publication of "Sight Unseen,
Science, UFO Invisibility, and Transgenic Beings," a book
written by New York science documentary filmmaker Carol Rainey,
and Budd Hopkins, director and founder of the Manhattan-based
Intruders Foundation, one of the only institutions that
specializes in alien abductions.

"The book tries to take the para out of paranormal," explained
Hopkins, one of the country's leading UFO researchers and
authors, to an audience visibly enamored with the charismatic,
gray-haired abstract artist.

Ms. Rainey's presentation, like her contribution to the book,
aimed to bridge the gap between mainstream science and the
science of UFO abductions. She hopes that the former will one
day catch up to the latter.

To open her discussion, she told of a recent scientific
discovery in Central America, where a tiny wasp takes complete
control of a spider's mind and body, without the spider ever
knowing.

At first, it sounds like typical Discovery Channel antics: The
wasp stings the spider into paralysis and lays an egg into its
abdomen, which soon hatches into larva that feeds off the
spider's nutrients.

But just before the spider dies and is eaten by its predator,
the wasp takes mysterious control over its behavior. The spider
stops spinning its normal web, and instead creates a new web
that is the perfect anchor from which the wasp larva will hang
its cocoon.

In the analogy, the wasp exerts mind control over the spider,
just as aliens do over their human abductees, but scientists
don't know exactly how, she said. The difference is, they
receive copious funding to study the wasp-spider phenomenon, and
not a penny to study aliens.

"Cutting-edge science might hold some clue to what is going on
in abduction phenomena," she said while she showed slides of
scientific wonders, like the rabbit recently implanted with the
DNA of a jellyfish, traversable wormholes, and a diagram of an
optical tweezer which lifts molecules using a beam of laser
light, a small-scale version of spaceships beaming up their
abductees.

Ms. Rainey and Hopkins, who are married, focused their talks on
the book's two main topics, invisibility and transgenics, or the
interbreeding of two species, because aliens are in the process
of mastering these endeavors, they say.

"Aliens seem to prefer to run a covert operation," said Ms.
Rainey to her audience, between slides of the latest U.S.
military technology of invisible camouflage suits and scientific
explanations of how invisibility works. "It makes good business
sense."

Later, Hopkins played an audiotape of three women under hypnosis
who described being in a spacecraft and holding strange-looking
babies they had given birth to, with scraggly hair, tiny limbs
and a big head, that seemed half human, half alien.

RISKING RIDICULE

After the four-hour conference, dozens of people who had
traveled to Wagner from as far away as Connecticut,
Massachusetts and Illinois, lined up to get their books signed
by Hopkins and Ms. Rainey.

Dennis Anderson, an astronomy professor at Wagner and the
planetarium director, who organized the conference, said he
briefly worried it would be canceled when two faculty members
sent angry e-mails that the school was hosting a conference on
such a fringe topic.

Hopkins publicly thanked Anderson, an Intruders Foundation board
member, for risking ridicule and derision from faculty in
hosting the event at Wagner, apparently the first New York
academic institution to do so. (In the summer of 2001, Wagner
hosted a series of three lectures on UFOs.)

It provides "an excellent chance to present the evidence for
this phenomenon to a larger audience in an academic setting,"
said Hopkins.

One researcher speaking at the conference who lends key
credibility to the field is Dr. John E. Mack, professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Mack has analyzed
hundreds of abductees and concluded that the consistency of
their stories, injuries and marks on their skin, strongly
suggests they are mentally stable people who have had true alien
encounters.

Another credible figure on hand was "Ed Reynolds," a former Air
Force engineer and now a college physics professor in Chicago,
who never reveals his true name when he tells of his own
abduction experience, which happened in an Outback Steakhouse
restaurant in Illinois.

"It really irks me when I hear scientists say 'Everything's been
discovered,'" Reynolds said to a room of people nodding their
heads and murmuring in agreement. "Sooner or later, we'll solve
all these problems, like the aliens have, and take our place in
the universe, or at least the galaxy."

Heidi J. Shrager is a news reporter for the Advance. She can be
reached at shrager@siadvance.com.






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 13

                        Rumours About UK UFO Magazine

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:44:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:58:25 -0400
Subject: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine


Dear List Members,

A rumour seems to have started that I am to be the new editor of
UFO Magazine in the UK. I would like to inform you that this is
not the case.

Myself and one ot two others have been assisting UFO Magazine
after the untimely death of its founder and editor Graham
Birdsall. Between us we have ensured the short term survival of
UFO Magazine but its ultimate fate lies in the hands of Graham's
wife Christine, who quite naturally is still grieving for him.

I don't know where these rumours have started but I'd like to
put an end to this speculation once and for all.


Regards,

Philip Mantle.
www.beyondroswell.com







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 13

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:29:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:40:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>Canadian Press

>><snip>

>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>Styles.

>>No argument there. The laughter curtain/giggle factor is alive
>>and well.

>><snip>

>>>The International Space Station's bright lights
>>>regularly trip up casual observers.

>>Do any ufologists on the List agree with this? I've personally
>>never seen the ISS and don't see how it could "regularly" fool
>>people into thinking they're seeing something exotic. Moreover,
>>the ISS isn't equipped with any "bright lights" that I know of.

>I have _never_ heard of the ISS being confused with a UFO.

>This sounds like a class project from Journalism 114a except
>that its otherwise fairly well written.

>More likely, its written from barstool 14b, the one closest to
>the seltzer bottle, and furthest from the books.


Oh c'mon Mr. Hatch, it's astonishing you could be so obviously
cloistered and dismayingly provincial. I've been accused
_myself_ of confusing the ISS with a UFO.

The rest of your charming, but rather predictable literary
smirk, is a portrait in irony given that our Mr. Tonnies has a
productively efficacious edge that you would snap up in a second
iff'n you could (as would I), and so should, perhaps, refrain
from casual desultory condescension, inappropriate aloofness,
and unjustified superciliousness in his regard. There is more
to gain with regard to what he's on about than there is to sneer
at, verily. Moreover, it's not helpful, it is an uncalled for
and uninformed admonition (incurring a non productive reaction),
and it is not a -little- insulting. Mr. Tonnies has not stepped
out of line at all...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com


AlienViewGroup [alienview.net]... An equal-opportunity
paranormalist association in affiliation with the Church of "It
Ain't what You Think!" and the ISI (Incomprehensiblely Self-
Indulgent)<g>.








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   Oct > Oct 13

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:51:58 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>There are a few questions that I would like to ask you regarding
>>the ML307.

>>First, how do you know that the ML307 drawing issued by the Air
>>Force report is authentic?

>Instead of asking some question with no obvious point, why not
>just make your point? Is it that the AF cleverly altered the
>original so that we would only think Ramey's object was a rawin
>when it was not? If it is, that is way too conspiratorial for
>me, frankly unbelievable.

David,

I thought the point was very clear which was within the question
itself but certainly not the one you propose. I will interpret
your answer as you don't no however, I think you should strongly
consider the possibility that the SC-D-14407 drawing is a red
herring for the following reasons:

First, it was issued as part of the Air Force report which right
from the get go is suspect..

Second, sometime ago I corresponded with you regarding the
historical account of the drawing where I had indicated that the
legend on the drawing omitted the fact that there was a Model
307A/AP which was one of the primary models in the development
of the target. Professor Moore made no mention of this as well.
You had indicated that the ommission was no big deal. It doesn't
change the outcome. I disagreed with you on this point from the
stance that such an omission would not be acceptable on an
engineering drawing, especially one that the Signal Laboratory
would issue out.

Since our discussion on this I received a copy of Chapert IX of
the  TM 1-235 War Department Technical Manual titled "Radar
Winds-Aloft Observation printed May 1945. On the front page of
this chapter the Rawin Target is depicted hanging from a
balloon. This without a doubt is the official military reference
source for the Rawin Target. The manual clearly identifies the
the ML307A/AP and ML307B/AP as two primary targets, so why
doesn't the drawing mention anything about the ML307A/AP. The
drawing only lists the ML307/AP and ML307B/AP. You might argue
the point that they had just forgotten to put it the drawing but
this would be a very weak agrument. Major model numbers are not
just forgotten. You can omit a screw or a bolt but not an entire
model by accident.

Third, the Air Force report listed the museum where they had
obtained a copy the drawing. I attempted to get the second
drawing which was suppose to show the exploded view of the
ML307C/AP. I spoke to the curator of the museum who was the same
person cited in the report. What she told me, and I have an
email from her confirming this, there never was any such drawing
located at this museum. And further to this she did not know why
her name was mentioned in the Air Force report.

These are three very good reasons why I won't trust the
information on the drawing and three good reasons why you
shouldn't. The TM 1-235 manaul is the only official source to
compare other information to such as the construction of the
target etc.

>>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the first
>>place. As Neil , Ed and myself have tried to explain to you many
>>times, this just won't work. The assembly instructions of the
>>target clearly state the following: "The target is examined to
>>see that the sides and corners are smooth and square. Any tears,
>>loose sticks, or loose seams are repaired with tape applied to
>>the paper surface rather than to the foil whenever possible".
>>Now do you think for one minute that they would design a target
>>so that you have to two foil sides glued together when they know
>>that using tape on the foil side is not a good idea? I think
>>not!

>You can argue all you want that it never happened, but the
>photos I keep pointing you to of other rawins clearly show white
>strips on foil. Again:

>www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html
>www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_launch_July1948.html

>That you and Neil continue to ignore absolutely clear
>photographic proof that you are wrong continues to amaze me.

David, you are evading my questions. You have not provided one
good solid technical reason why two foil sides would be glued
together since that is the only way you can have white stripes.
Why would you have some sides with a white strip and not all of
the sides?

The photo of the Mogal launch does not prove anything. This
photo was taken on July 22, 1948, one year after the fact. I
will also add that the Mogul launch photo came from the Air
Force report which as mentioned earlier is a questionable source
of information as you see later on in this response. Take a look
at how the sun is casting shadows in various areas of the photo.
You will see some decrephanicies.

There is only one official drawing that can be relied upon and
that is the assembly drawing of the target in the TM 1-235
manual. It shows very clearly that there are no foil to foil
joints or white strips. Couple this with the in-depth scans I
received from UTA of the target photographed on July 9, 1947 and
there is no question about it, there are no foil to foil joints
or white strips. It's just not there.

>>Third, what would you say is be the height of the panel resting
>>on Dubois's knee?

>I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
>bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
>35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
>on this edge.

It looks like we have a problem here. We both agreed that the
width of the carpet stripes is 1", 1.0143" to be exact but
we'll call it an inch. If you poject the carpet stripes in the
RDB(Smiling) photo and count the number of stripes from the
lower part of the stick along the bottom to the left edge you
will count a total of 34 stripes, give or take a stripe or two.
Granted there are folds dipping up and down and this will
probably add a couple of inches for a total of 36".

Do you you see the problem here. There cannot be a panel with
two sides 36". And yes, the bottom part of the panel is torn and
we may not be seeing the complete panel. But lets assume that
the bottom part of the panel was wider, than the stick on the
right hand side of the panel would have be longer than 36". But
this wouldn't make sense either because there shouldn't be any
stick longer than 36" except for the strut that runs through the
center of the target which would be 48". But, if we were seeing
that part of the target, the configuation of the panel on
Dubois's knee would look much different than what the photo is
depicting.

It doesn't add up does it?

>Fourth, what part of the rawin target does the panel on Dubois's
>>knee represent with respect to the drawing issued by the Air
>>Force?

>It is one of the two large triangular foil/paper panels in the
>drawing that the AF so cleverly altered so as to confuse us.
>Specifically it is the triangular panel labeled "C" forming the
>"roof" of the left-hand corner in the drawing. A white strip
>sheath for the framework stick is very clearly shown on the
>drawing, including a cut-way showing the stick inside of it
>(labeled "12"). Other white strips are also clearly shown on
>this schematic, such as over the the right side, with a stick
>labeled "11" showing threw another cut-way in a white sheath.

This is new. This is the first time I have heard you mention
anything about the AF altering the drawing. On what basis do you
arrive at that consclusion? It looks like you have just
confirmed what I was saying, the drawing is not to be trusted.

Now lets see if I have this right. Your taking the design
information from a drawing of an ML307C/AP traget which has been
cleverly altered by the AF and appling it against a model built
in 1944 and saying that these two targets are the same with
respect to the white stripes. So here we have a target the
ML307B/AP that was modified in 1951 and than renamed the
ML307C/AP, if one can believe that even this information is
correct because it comes from the legend information on the
drawing which is where Professor Moore got his information. You
want me and the list to believe that these white strips that you
see on the drawing existed on the ML307B/AP target, seven years
prior. That's a leap of faith.

Allow me to add another fact here. In the Army Technical manual
TM 11-487G which was printed in April of 1951 and is labelled as
"The Directory of Signal Corps Equipments (Meteorological
Equipment)", there is no mention what so ever of an ML307C/AP.
The manual superceded TM 11-487, 2 October 1944 as it pretained
to meteorological equipment. The ML307C/AP target designation
came out Jan 8, 1951, lots of time to make into the updated
training manual. When this is coupled with the fact that the
museum never had a copy of the ML307C/AP drawing, plus the fact
that the historical information of the target's development is
incorrect than it would appear that the ML307C/AP drawing never
existed except for the purposes of the AF Roswell report to
debunk the Roswell incident. The drawing is a red herring.

David, there is only one official target assembly drawing and as
I have stated earlier, there are no white stripes shown. The AF
report information is there for a reason and that is to convince
people that the information on that target coincides with the
FTW Photos so that it supports the theory that the debris
photographed was a rawin target and the AF have done a very good
job of it. You are convinced!

>>Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
>>ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
>>were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
>>account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
>>for this?

>Sorry, what's this got to do with what's in Ramey's office?

>Among my personal calculations was seeing what happened if the
>balloon rose and fell exactly as fast as Flight #5 the next day.
>If the balloon had risen significantly slower because of
>attached Rawins, all that would have happened is that it would
>have ended up even further away from the Foster Ranch crash
>site.

This question was a slight digression but germain to the issue
indirectly. It was a fact that was stated in the manual and than
I wondered if this variable was taken into account. My
understanding was that several targets were involved in the
Mogul train. That being the case it would play an important role
in how the acsent rate of the mogul train. It's to important a
variable to omit in the calculations. I wonder what professor
Moore's response would be to this. I'm sure he would have an
answer.


Best Regards,

Andrew








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                      Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:08:35 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:16:33 -0400
Subject: Re: The Sisyphus Complex - Ledger


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:07:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Sisyphus Complex

<snip>

>This is forgetting, of course, the busy imps of CSICOPia
>(...Committee for the Silly and Insentient Commitment of
>Obdurate Persons!) and their well funded levers and wheel chocks
>employed on the -up- hill side of the boulder, against us! But
>for them, for the most part, we'd have cleared the hurdle
>imposed and be rolling hard for the next hill!


Never thought of it that way Al, but your point is well taken.


Don Ledger







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:26:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:20:47 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:34:33 +0200
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

><snip>

>>I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
>>about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
>>becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
>>is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.

>Andrew,

>Where are you trying to drive us? To discover that is was flying
>saucer?

>Excellent to add confusion and ridicule to the Roswell case.


Gildas,

Please reference my response to David for details. There is no
confusion, simply facts that show the drawing David is
referencing is a red herring and cannot be trusted. David even
admits this himself. He now says that the ML307C/AP orignal
drawing was cleverly altered by the AF. In my resonse to David I
have shown that there are no white stripes on the rawin target,
therefore the panels in the photos are not part of a rawin
target.

Is the debris from a downed UFO? I can't say 100%. I can say one
thing, there is alot of material in the photos that doesn't
belong to a rawin target. That much I can see.

Andrew







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                 Something Brewing In Camarillo, California

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:09:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:22:10 -0400
Subject: Something Brewing In Camarillo, California


Hi List

I have something that I may need help on, a case which is taking
place in Camarillo, California. Since I have been having no luck
what so ever in getting hold of a MUFON member in California, I
was wondering if anyone on the list might be able to direct me
to a UFO investigator for this area. I have tried a few UFO
investigators for California I found, but never received a reply
back, or my emails to the person bounced back to me. I also have
had a number of witnesses from California who have been having
one heck of a time trying to contact an investigator for the
state. Seems no one is replying to them, as some of these
witnesses are spending the money on a telephone call to me.

Thank you and someone can email me privately for information on
this case.


Take care

Brian
HBCC UFO Research







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                        Re: Amazing Photo! - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:33:53 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:44:36 -0400
Subject: Re:  Amazing Photo! - Balaskas


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:23:00 -0400
>Subject: Amazing Photo!

>Have a look at this whatever-it-s!:

>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031001.html

>Ray Stanford

Hi Everyone!

The explanation to the two photos taken by Jonathan Burnett, 15,
and another third picture of the same UFO taken by Julien
Haywood about 10 miles away is thought to be a "false Sun"
created by the ice crystals refracting sunlight in the contrail
of a Concorde jet. I thought it was ejected jet fuel that
ignited.....

See the URL below for further details and a third independently
taken picture ruling out it was not a hoax.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_031013.html

This just shows that even scientists who are very familiar with
the sky can be just as baffled as anyone when presented with a
single picture of a UFO. Michael Strainic, a ufologist with
MUFON Canada, said in an e-mail he sent to the CANUFO list
"...As Allen Hynek said, a photo is *never* proof of anything
('cept maybe under controlled scientific conditions), and that's
what we have here,...". Micheal was responding to my suggestion
that the New Westminster, B.C. UFO was indeed a balloon as the
witness first suspected - just like one of those popular helium
filled saucer shaped metallic foil balloons that one can buy at
gift shops for a dollar or so.

The Franklin, New Hampshire UFO cluster and the small UFO
passing below a low flying airplane at the Goodwood, UK airshow
(see Jeff Rense's web site) can also be readily and reasonably
explained as such metallic foil balloons, a theory which I
tested myself by launching my own saucer shaped balloon and
photographing it with a digital camera.


Nick Balaskas







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               Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:20:11 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:51:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Balaskas


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:25:34 EDT
>Subject: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>A while back I recall a study that focused on the effect of
>extreme cold on light.

>My question is if extreme cold affects light and it's
>particle/wave flow, does the cold of space do so as well?

>If that's the case, does the light from distant stars reach us
>slower and is it calculated by our scientists when determining
>distance and age of these bodies?

Hi Greg!

I would be very interested in reading this study if you can find
it or tell me of a reference to it.

As Larry Hatch somewhat correctly pointed out in his reply to
you, the temperature of space cannot simply be measured with a
thermometer and is not very easily quantified. The amount of
thermal motion of atoms in a solid or the average velocity of
moving individual atoms in a gas (from kinetic theory) is often
used to come up with a value for the temperature of objects in
space. The value of the brightest peak wavelength that an object
radiates also is used to come up with a value for temperature
(for example red glowing metal is colder than yellow glowing
metal).

We know that interior of the Sun has an internal temperature in
the millions of degrees, since such temperatures are required
for nuclear fusion to take place (this is the reason our Sun
shines) but from the yellow brightest peak wavelength of our
Sun, we find that this corresponds to a surface temperature of
about 6000 degrees. Furthermore, from the very high velocities
of the particles within the Sun's atmosphere, we get
temperatures in the hundreds of thousands of degrees or more.
Although all three temperatures for the interior, surface and
atmosphere of the Sun were derived thorugh different techniques,
the temperatures they give are considered valid.

When we talk about the temperature of space, its meaning is not
easy to understand. As Bill Hamilton pointed out in his reply to
you, space radiates strongly with a peak wavelenghth in the
microwave range which corresponds to temperature of a few
degrees above absolute zero - the coldest possible temperature.
This background microwave radiation is believed by most
scientists to be from the left over heat from the Big Bang at
the very start of the universe (a view I do not share). If space
was a near perfect vacuum, the very high average velocities of
the very few particles present in a volume of space, the kinetic
theory for temperature would give us a value in the thousands of
degrees. We all know how quickly we would burn to a crisp if
exposed to such high temperatures, but because the number of
particles in the near perfect vacuum of space are so few, we
would not even feel slightly warm!

In near Earth space, the radiative energy from our Sun would
warm us up and from the conduction of heat from our bodies, we
could use a simple thermometer to measure just how hot we were
but if there is nothing up there in near Earth space to absorb
the Sun's radiative energy, the mercury in our thermometer
(shielded from the direct rays of the Sun, of course) would not
even register a temperature since there would be no heat to make
the mercury expand.

Getting back to your later and probably a much more important
question, I have to say yes, there are measurements that show
that the speed of light is slowing down and there is compelling
evidence that it is has been decreasing exponentially since
about ten thousand years ago when its speed was infinite! If
these measurements are shown to be correct, then everything in
the universe can still appear to billions of years old but in
fact be much younger. What would all this mean to ufologists?
Well for one thing, there would be no ET civilizations much more
advanced than our own since we would all have been created at
roughly the same time!

Before I finish my reply to your e-mail, let me mention about two
fascinating talks I attended earlier this month that not only
challenge our current basic scientific beliefs but which tell me
that we are still a long way from understanding the universe and
our place in it. The first talk on October 1 was titled 'The
Science of Time' which was given by Dr. Fay Dowker who is now
with the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo,
Ontario. In short, Dowker's talk implied that the flow of time is
an illusion. The second talk on October 7 was titled 'The Jupiter
Radio Deflection Experiment and its Experimental Significance'
which was given by Dr. Ed Fomalont who is with the National Radio
Astronomy Observatory. In short, the results of his experiment
show that the speed of light is not the same as the speed of
gravity which if true, make the order of objects in the universe
very different to what it is now. In light of this finding, maybe
Sitchin's Nibiru is not that far-fetched of an idea after all...


Nick Balaskas







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                              Antonio Huneeus?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:46:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:54:57 -0400
Subject: Antonio Huneeus?


Does anyone in the vast ufoland have the email address for
Antonio Huneeus? I used to have it.

Then I got the "blaster" which blasted everything, including
email addresses which I have had for years but have no longer.







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              1955 Planes Sent After 'Objects' in Southern Ohio

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:53:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 03:28:09 -0400
Subject: 1955 Planes Sent After 'Objects' in Southern Ohio


Source: The Clermont Sun (Clermont County, Ohio)

Date: June 2, 1955
Page 1

"Flying Saucers" Sighted by Loveland CD Tower Planes Sent Up To
Check Objects

Reported By Observer With Long Service

On Tuesday, May 24 at 7:48 p.m., according to the log which is
kept of the flights of planes reported at the Ground Observer
Tower on Lebanon Road, four flying saucers flying in formation
passed over and were reported to Columbus by the observer on
duty. They were flying in a northeasterly direction and when
reported to Columbus planes were sent out to identify them.

No public report ever came back to the tower, but this is
regular practice and none was expected.

The observer on duty at the time was Mrs. Frank Whitecotton. She
has served more hours in the observation tower than any other
person and was said to be thoroughly qualified in plane
identification and reporting.

"This may come as somewhat of a surprise to some of the
skeptics, but now that flying saucers have been identified here
by one of our own workers, let us not be lulled into a sense of
complacency," a CD official said.

"Keep the watch tower occupied at all times. The very moment it
is left unmanned may be the time the enemy will strike. Join the
G.O.C. today. It will be a pleasant place to spend a few hours
each week this summer.

End of article
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo








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                     Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:35:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:40:03 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:12:35 EDT
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>Toy Tape on RAWINS:

>I have a curiosity question, here, for David, regarding the so-
>called purple toy tape reported by Prof Moore. Sorry for asking
>this question if the answer is on your website or was mentioned
>in a previous post, but has the "purple toy tape with the flower
>symbols", supposedly seen by Moore and his team in 1947, ever
>shown up in any photographs or movies of RAWIN targets (color or
>black and white)?


Dave and List

I think that there is only a drawing by Prof Moore, from memory.
There was an indirect confirmation that such targets with flower
symbols on tape did exist : it is the second testimony of Mack
Brazel, mentioning that he had found that on June 14, published
in the Roswell Dailey record.

For the Mogul proponents, this was a "proof" that Brazel had
found the Mogul 4 balloon train. I have proposed in a previous
post ("Mogul 4 that bever was", July 28) that what he discovered
at that date was just a small cluster with a few ballons and
targets such as launched by Albert Crary and the NYU team
everyday in June. On the other hand Crary clearly wrote in his
diary that the launching of Mogul 4 was cancelled ! Crary had
access to the NYU equipment and he probably used their targets
for these launchings of small clusters. That's one more reason
to turn the page of the Mogul 4 story, in addition to its
problematic flight trajectory.


Gildas Bourdais







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                          Secrecy News -- 10/14/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:25:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:00:50 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/14/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 88
October 14, 2003


**      IN SUPPORT OF THOMAS BUTLER
**      COPY OF SUPPRESSED PENTAGON WEB SITE POSTED
**      OMB REPORT TO CONGRESS ON COMBATING TERRORISM
**      NRO LAUNCH MANIFEST


IN SUPPORT OF THOMAS BUTLER

The case of Thomas C. Butler, the renowned infectious disease
specialist at Texas Tech University who was charged with
smuggling plague bacteria and numerous other violations of law,
continues to puzzle and perplex observers.

The case has alarmed leaders of the scientific community and
others who view the government's aggressive pursuit of Butler as
far out of proportion to the offenses he is alleged to have
committed.

"It's of grave concern that in a free society, such an Alfred
Hitchcockian situation could emerge," said Peter Agre, winner of
the 2003 Nobel Prize in chemistry.  Dr. Agre noted that he has
"known and admired" Dr. Butler since he was a medical student.

Further details about the case, including information about how
to contribute to the Thomas Butler Legal Defense Fund, may be
found here:

http://www.fas.org/butler/index.html

Coverage of the case has lately been muted by a gag order
imposed at the government's request.

On September 12, Judge Sam R. Cummings of the U.S. District
Court for the Northern District of Texas granted a government
motion to prohibit "extrajudicial statements" by the "parties,
their counsel, or their agents."

The specific rationale for silencing the parties could not be
determined.  But at least one major interview with Butler,
obtained prior to the gag order, may soon be published.


COPY OF SUPPRESSED DOD WEB SITE POSTED

Last week the Department of Defense moved to block public access
to a DoD web site containing hundreds of unclassified directives
that define and prescribe Pentagon procedures (SN, 10/08/03).

But with astonishing instincts, Russ Kick, proprietor of the web
site TheMemoryHole.org, had recently taken the trouble to make a
copy of the entire site.  Now he has reposted the suppressed
site and all of its contents here:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/dod-
directives/www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/

In the short term, this is a superlative solution to the
Pentagon's silly secrecy.  In the long term, however, it is less
satisfactory because it cannot reflect updates and revisions to
the frequently altered system of directives.

Fortunately, the Defense Department has no legal right to
withhold this information.

Under the 1996 Electronic Freedom of Information Act, explained
information policy expert Robert Gellman, DoD would be obliged
to publish such directives online if it received multiple
requests for them under FOIA.

In fact, added Michael Tankersley of Public Citizen, the
Department may well be "obligated to make most of these
materials available on the Internet even if it has not received
a request" under the amended FOIA [see 5 U.S.C. 552(a)(2)(B) and
(C)].

"You're not wrong," a Pentagon official said today, when we
explained our intention to request a soft copy of the full
contents of the suppressed web site under the FOIA every month
unless and until public access to the site is restored.

A growing (though not unanimous) body of opinion in the Pentagon
now considers that blocking public access to the web site on DoD
directives was a mistake, the official indicated.

"We're working to get it back up," he said.


OMB REPORT TO CONGRESS ON COMBATING TERRORISM

Last month the White House Office of Management and Budget
published its 2003 Report to Congress on Combating Terrorism,
describing the various agency counterterrorism programs and
budgets.

"The report is widely considered to be the most authoritative
source of information on Executive Branch spending, program
initiatives, and priority terrorism-related areas for FY2002
through FY2004," according to the Congressional Research
Service.

See the 2003 Report to Congress on Combating Terrorism here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/omb_terror_03.pdf


NRO LAUNCH MANIFEST

The anticipated timing of launches of classified spy satellites
is not commonly disclosed, and has sometimes been actively
withheld.

But a projected launch schedule for military space missions,
including those of the National Reconnaissance Office, which is
responsible for launching U.S. spy satellites, has recently been
provided in unclassified form by the NRO.

The NRO Working Manifest for FY 2003-2006 categorizes the future
launches by date, launch facility, and launch vehicle.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/nro/nro_manifest.pdf

It was excerpted from a larger NRO briefing that provides some
additional details here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/nro/nro032503.pdf




_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:22:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:06:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:29:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:40:27 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>>Canadian Press

>>><snip>

>>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>>Styles.

<snip>

>The rest of your charming, but rather predictable literary
>smirk, is a portrait in irony given that our Mr. Tonnies has a
>productively efficacious edge that you would snap up in a second
>iff'n you could (as would I), and so should, perhaps, refrain
>from casual desultory condescension, inappropriate aloofness,
>and unjustified superciliousness in his regard. There is more
>to gain with regard to what he's on about than there is to sneer
>at, verily. Moreover, it's not helpful, it is an uncalled for
>and uninformed admonition (incurring a non productive reaction),
>and it is not a -little- insulting. Mr. Tonnies has not stepped
>out of line at all...


Uh Alfred?

Maybe you should read the original posts again, and more
carefully.

My cloistered provincial smirking was directed at Jennifer
Robinson of the Canadian Press, since it was her contention that
the ISS regularly trip up casual observers.

I did not aim that at Mac Tonnies, nor would a careful reader
think so.  As I see it, Mac took the same view I did, that this
was careless journalism.

I suppose the ISS could trip up the naive on occasion.


Sincerely

- Larry







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               SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:53:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:10:49 -0400
Subject: SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange


SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange At The National
Press Club In Washington, DC

Next Tuesday the SciFi Channel and CFI will announce a legal
challenge in relation to the Kecksberg incident in 1965:

==========================
PRESS ADVISORY

SCI FI Channel And Coalition For Freedom of Information (CFi)
Ready Lawsuit Against Government Stonewall

---------------------------

Groups Unite To Seek Records of Mysterious 1965 Pennsylvania
Incident

WHAT:

A year ago, with the support of John Podesta, former Clinton
White House Chief of Staff and member of the Moynihan Commission
on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy, the SCI FI
Channel and the Coalition for Freedom of Information (CFi)
initiated an effort to obtain classified and other government
documents on the 1965 UFO incident in Kecksburg, PA.

Now, as a result of continued delays and stonewalling by key
federal agencies including the Department of Defense, the U.S.
Army, the U.S. Air Force, and NASA on CFi's Freedom of
Information Act requests, SCI FI will announce its support for
legal action to force various agencies to reveal what they know
about the Kecksburg crash.

Legal, scientific, and archival experts will report on a year's
worth of investigative work - federal archive searches,
interviews with witnesses and military personnel, scientific
analyses, and Freedom of Information Act requests.

On December 9, 1965, just outside the small Pennsylvania town of
Kecksburg, witnesses described seeing a fireball in the evening
sky, a controlled landing and the systematic military recovery
of an object. As reported by local radio and newspapers, U.S.
military personnel cordoned off the area, investigated the site,
and left without ever providing a full report of the incident
other than to dismiss it as a meteorite.

WHO:

Bonnie Hammer, SCI FI Channel President
Leslie Kean, Investigative Journalist
Lee Helfrich, Attorney, Lobel, Novins & Lamont
Amber Moulton-Wiseman, History Associates Incorporated
Ed Rothschild, Executive Director, Coalition for Freedom of Information

WHEN:

Tuesday, October 21, 2003
10:00 AM [Coffee and pastry - 9:30]

WHERE:

First Amendment Room
National Press Club
Washington, DC

CONTACT:        Nicole 202 879-9369







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   Oct > Oct 14

                           State-Sponsored Denial

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:28:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:25:32 -0400
Subject: State-Sponsored Denial


LWB Note: The following Oct. 9, 2003, letter to me from Robert
T. Hennemeyer, co-chairman of the State Department's FOIA
Appeals Review Panel, raises not just the usual technical
questions about agency compliance with FOIA
principles/policy/practices.

It also makes me wonder about the related philosophical,
managerial, and cultural issues lurking below the tip of the
Denial Iceberg: e.g.:

(1) if the "John Doe" whistleblower is telling the truth about
his witnessing of certain (presumably sensitive and permanently
retainable) UFO smoking-gun telexes revealing a 1975 incident of
"hostile aerial craft" interference with some of our
supersecret space satellites, then why should we accept that no
follow-up State Department- generated/received documentation
ever materialized in State files?

(2) if the resultant paper trail on both the original telexes
and on any follow-up records somehow has been destroyed, then
why, who did it (under what authority), and what are the
repercussions for such poor treatment of our nation's "essential
evidence"?

(3) shouldn't the Congress be looking into these issues ASAP -
if for no other reason than to help set the record straight and
to help agencies avoid such an egregious loss of historic
records in the future? Perhaps only the emergence of additional
whistleblowers in this case can produce the answers, alas.

-----

Dear Mr. Bryant:

A Department of State Appeals Review Board, whose members are
listed in an enclosure to this letter, has considered your
appeal of May 29, 2003 concerning the Department's failure to
locate documents relating to your request under the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA).

In carefully considering your appeal, the Panel has reviewed the
record of initial searches conducted in response to your
request. This record reveals that because of the 1975 time
frame, the search was concentrated on the Central Foreign Policy
Files, which cover the period 1973--present. To ensure
thoroughness, the search was conducted in the telegram and
written correspondence collections of the State Archiving System
for the time period 1975--1976. The results of the search were
negative.

Another possible source of documents responsive to your request
was the documents retired from Department offices and various
Foreign Service posts. The researcher reviewed the retired
records manifest for U. S. Embassy Canberra during the timeframe
of 1975-1977. No retired records responsive to your request were
identified.

Upon receipt of the appeal, repeat searches were conducted of
the Department of State files with negative results.

Your letter of appeal refers to possible reports from the
Defense Attaches overseas. Such records would be held by DIA
[Defense Intelligence Agency] and not the Department of State.
If you wish to contact the FOIA Office of that agency, the
address is: Defense Intelligence Agency; attn: Robert
Richardson, Chief (DAN-1, FOIA Staff); 200 MacDill Boulevard;
Bolling Air Force Base - Washington, D.C. 20340-5100.

The Panel has carefully weighed the information available to it
and has concluded that, based on the information you provided
for conducting a search for documents, the search was thorough,
reasonable and adequate. Your appeal is therefore denied.

The Panel's decision represents the final decision of the
Department of State. If you wish to seek judicial review of this
determination you may do so in accordance with 5 U.S.C. Section
552(a)(4).

Sincerely,

ROBERT T. HENNEMEYER

Enclosure: List of Panel Members:

Case Control No.: 200301092

CHAIRMAN: Ambassador Robert T. Hennemeyer (Co-Chairman)
MEMBERS:  Ambassador William E. Ryerson; Ambassador Dennis Kux







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   Oct > Oct 14

               SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:53:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:10:49 -0400
Subject: SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange


SciFi Channel & CFI To Announce Legal Challange At The National
Press Club In Washington, DC

Next Tuesday the SciFi Channel and CFI will announce a legal
challenge in relation to the Kecksberg incident in 1965:

==========================
PRESS ADVISORY

SCI FI Channel And Coalition For Freedom of Information (CFi)
Ready Lawsuit Against Government Stonewall

---------------------------

Groups Unite To Seek Records of Mysterious 1965 Pennsylvania
Incident

WHAT:

A year ago, with the support of John Podesta, former Clinton
White House Chief of Staff and member of the Moynihan Commission
on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy, the SCI FI
Channel and the Coalition for Freedom of Information (CFi)
initiated an effort to obtain classified and other government
documents on the 1965 UFO incident in Kecksburg, PA.

Now, as a result of continued delays and stonewalling by key
federal agencies including the Department of Defense, the U.S.
Army, the U.S. Air Force, and NASA on CFi's Freedom of
Information Act requests, SCI FI will announce its support for
legal action to force various agencies to reveal what they know
about the Kecksburg crash.

Legal, scientific, and archival experts will report on a year's
worth of investigative work - federal archive searches,
interviews with witnesses and military personnel, scientific
analyses, and Freedom of Information Act requests.

On December 9, 1965, just outside the small Pennsylvania town of
Kecksburg, witnesses described seeing a fireball in the evening
sky, a controlled landing and the systematic military recovery
of an object. As reported by local radio and newspapers, U.S.
military personnel cordoned off the area, investigated the site,
and left without ever providing a full report of the incident
other than to dismiss it as a meteorite.

WHO:

Bonnie Hammer, SCI FI Channel President
Leslie Kean, Investigative Journalist
Lee Helfrich, Attorney, Lobel, Novins & Lamont
Amber Moulton-Wiseman, History Associates Incorporated
Ed Rothschild, Executive Director, Coalition for Freedom of Information

WHEN:

Tuesday, October 21, 2003
10:00 AM [Coffee and pastry - 9:30]

WHERE:

First Amendment Room
National Press Club
Washington, DC

CONTACT:        Nicole 202 879-9369








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   Oct > Oct 15

                       An Interview With John A. Keel

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:29:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:29:13 -0400
Subject: An Interview With John A. Keel



Courtesy of Bob Pratt

OCTOBER 1973

Excerpt from.....

The New UFO Sightings

By Glenn McWane & David Graham
1974 Warner Paperback Library Edition (pages 26-34).

Shortly after the October UFO flap broke out, we were able to
obtain an interview with John A. Keel, who is probably one of
the most well-informed of all the UFO researchers:

Glenn McWane: John, how do you feet about UFOs getting some
national publicity after a rather long hiatus on the part of the
media?

John A Keel: It is very interesting. Tonight on the NBC news
they reported some of these sightings. They mentioned that a
woman somewhere in the South not only saw a UFO, but on the side
of this object the letters UFO were painted. It was an amusing
anecdote for the newscast, but I expect this was true. This was
an ultimate joke.

We may get more reports like this. A few years ago I talked with
two young men who had seen an object in a field that resembled
exactly one of our space modules and had "US Air Force" printed
on the sides. But, of course, one of our space modules isn't
going to be hovering over a field in New Jersey. I never wrote
it up because, even the UFO buffs wouldn't believe it.

As for the coverage this flap is getting, it is superb. UPI is
doing excellent wrap-up stories on it. The NBC newscast has been
covering it every night this week and every night last week.
This may be because NBC is preparing a White Paper on UFOS.

Three or four weeks ago I was called in by the young man who is
working on it, and we had dinner together. It is being produced
by Fred Freed, who produced a number of the award-winning White
Papers.

In the course of my conversation a month ago with these people,
I laid out some predictions based on the patterns of previous
flaps. I really put my neck out. All of my predictions are
coming true. I was able to tell them that the sightings would be
concentrated in the Mississippi Valley and move up to the Ohio
Valley by the end of October. They are seen everywhere, but the
heaviest concentration seems to be in the Mississippi Valley.

According to my statistics, around or on October 21 is the day
when the biggest flaps are likely to occur. Of course the
twenty-fourth produces some interesting manifestations. This
year October 24 is on a Wednesday, and I wouldn't be surprised
if the UFO flap will peak on that day, then gradually start to
subside. We will have a brief low, and then next March, all hell
is going to break loose.

McWane: Why do you think all this UFO activity is taking place
now?

Keel: I keep trying to outguess the phenomenon; but it is hard,
because it is always one step ahead of you. On a number of
occasions, when I was most active in my research, I would go to
an obscure farm on an obscure back road to research a story that
had never been publicized. As soon as I would walk into the
house, the phone would start to go crazy. But no one would be on
the other end of the line, and the farmer would be amazed
because this had never happened before.

This occurred several times in several different places. Someone
was trying to get through to me that they knew every move I was
making. They finally convinced me.

McWane: Speaking of personal investigations wherein it appears
that a mysterious, unidentified "someone" is keeping an eye on
things, a-few years ago I was involved in researching a case in
which a particular UFO contactee claimed to have been given vast
hordes of advanced scientific information. This man (I'll call
him Salvatore) claims that he knows where terrestrial UFO bases
are located.

Keel: You must be aware that this very thing has been repeated
fifty or a hundred times around the country, or around the
world. Do you remember the famous Mel Noel of the 1960s? He
claimed that a group of earthly scientists based in Brazil were
building UFOS. He had a good following, and people came to
believe in him--then he just disappeared into thin air. Someone
did write to me about a year ago and said Mel Noel had turned up
again. They had talked to him and heard him lecture.

Noel apparently had a lot of money behind him. He came to New
York City, went to Life magazine, went to Mort Young, who was
then with the Journal American. Noel was signing people up to go
on a space flight. He collected photos of all these different
reporters for their space passports.

Mel Noel was very good-looking, extremely well dressed. He was
accompanied by not one, but two or three or more very attractive
girls who looked like movie stars, from the descriptions I have.
He traveled all around the country stirring people up. He had a
story very similar to your Salvatore's.

A lot of people with such claims get in touch with me because
they think I am going to believe their story, become
enthusiastic about it, and write a glowing article about it. It
is very difficult for me to tell them that I feel sorry for
them; that I have heard it all before, and that I see them going
down the road to ruin just as several others have done in the
past.

I believe that a lot of people who have written strange letters
to me have really been mediumistic channels, and that the
letters were produced by automatic writing.

There was a case a few years ago in which I interviewed some
witnesses in Long Island. It was a family that had seen some
rather remarkable things. I taped the interview in their living
room with three or four people. A year or two later I went back
and dropped in on them to see how they had been doing and if
anything new was happening. They didn't know me. They were
amazed. I started telling them about UFO experiences, and they
thought I was crazy. They had no memory of all the things they
had told me a year ago. They were not acting as if they were
hiding anything or putting me on. They were nearly at a point of
shock.

McWane: Does this lead us into the sinister men-in-black kind of
phenomena?

Keel: Perhaps. Not too long ago, a photographer showed me a lot
of pictures be had taken of an outdoor rock festival in England.
There was something very extraordinary about the picture. There
was a large crowd, and scattered in the crowd were three men who
looked like brothers. Their hair was quite short in contrast to
the other people in the picture. They were dressed identically,
and they all had this man-in-black look. Not an Oriental look,
but a gaunt, evil look. They were widely separated in the crowd,
and yet if you brought these three men together, they would have
looked like triplets. This doesn't prove anything, except that
the picture fascinated me.

In January 1969, during Nixon's first inauguration, I was very
interested to notice three men in black suits looking very much
like our classical men-in-black sitting together a few rows from
the front, right behind Nixon when be gave his inaugural
address. Every time the television cameras shot Nixon from a
particular angle, I could see these three men. They seemed out
of place. Of course they could have been ambassadors from
Vietnam or something.

I wondered afterward if my imagination had been running away
from me. I got a hold of all the magazines I could find with
pictures of the inauguration; and I went over them with a
magnifying glass; but I could not find those three guys. Yet I
had seen them very clearly on television.

McWane: Have you ever run into a man-in-black type that is as
skinny as you could ever imagine a living human to be?

Keel: The thin man is well known to me. I call him the Cadaver.
Over the years I have had twenty-five different people describe
the Cadaver to me. He is usually extremely pale, as if he were
bloodless. He is so thin that he looks like be is going to fall
apart at any moment. He is usually rather poorly dressed, but it
isn't easy to look good in clothes when one is so thin.

A man in Minnesota wrote to me recently about his problem with
men-in-black. He called them morticians. He thought that their
manner and looks were like those of a mortician in an English
comedy. He was seeing them all over his home town.

There are several areas to this whole weird business. On one
hand we have real UFO phenomena -- strange lights passing over
the earth, probably since time began. The UFO intelligences are
aware that we are going to see these lights occasionally when
conditions are just right so they have to give us an
explanation. Different generations have been given different
explanations.

These intelligences have staged whole events over a long period
of time to support those explanations. We have the fairy faith
in Middle Europe; we have the vampire and various other kinds of
legends. We have the mysterious airships in 1897. Now we have
spaceships. But all of these things are nothing but a cover for
the real phenomenon -- whatever it is.

On the ground, as well as in the air, there are real things
happening that they don't want us to know about, so they give us
lots of cover stories. The men-in-black support the cover
stories in many of these instances.

What they are trying to hide may be frightening, even
incomprehensible to us, but it does seem that they are using us
in some fashion.

It may be more than a rumor that young people are being
collected from college campuses after the memories of their
families and friends have been altered so that they will not
remember the existence of these children. As farfetched as this
sounds, there may be more truth to it than to some of the other
theories we are kicking around.

We are being used in some fashion, and UFO intelligences don't
want us to discover how they are using us. So all this other
stuff is camouflage. And I keep trying to peel away the layers
of this camouflage. I keep trying to come up with something real
and substantial.

Perhaps if we could find out what they are doing to us, we could
stop them. But once we found out what it was, they might stop of
their own volition. And do something else for a change. It may
be the end of the game once we figure out what they are doing to
us.

Now when we have a new UFO flap, such as the one going on at the
moment, I ask myself what is really going on! What are they
covering up this time? What kind of manipulation is taking place
that we don't know about?

This is a very big flap, because there is a lot of heavy news
right now from the Middle East and it should have smothered the
UFO reports, but it didn't. There must be a lot more UFO
activity than the media have mentioned.

Two nights ago, the TV cameraman in a town near here (Mt.
Marion, N.Y.) spotted an object in the sky. He had a camera and
he took pictures of it. He is a specialized cameraman, but when
he developed the film nothing came out on it.

I have heard all this before. Were the objects really there, or
were the witnesses just thinking they saw them? Or was the film
manipulated in some way? Both possibilities are possible.

McWane: You seem to feel that the UFO phenomenon is some kind of
delusion that is being perpetrated upon mankind by some unknown
source.

Keel: In an earlier time when someone would undergo such
experiences, people would say that he was enchanted. Today,
people are still being enchanted, even though we don't use that
terminology anymore. More and more people are accepting these
incidents as real experiences -- when they probably aren't.

What we have had in the last twenty-five years or so is a large
propaganda movement designed to create a whole frame of
reference for these manifestations. A frame of reference that
could be used to conceal and to cover up what is really going
on. If it hadn't been for a relatively small handful of
extraterrestrial enthusisasts, the concept of UFOs from outer
space wouldn't have caught on; and the UFO intelligences would
have had to find something else. But the outer space propaganda
did catch on, and we have millions of people who accept
extraterrestrial visitors as the explanation for the lights they
are seeing in the sky.

These UFO lights are appearing simultaneously in thousands of
places all over the country. If it were really an invasion from
outer space, it would be enormous!

McWane: Have you observed any new variations to the UFO
sightings?

Keel: This summer we bad a great increase in "phantom
helicopters,' which appeared in some twenty states. These are
unmarked helicopters of a very large size, and are usually
compared to military helicopters. They are seen hovering over
farm fields, so when farmers see them they think they are cattle
rustlers. So far we do not have a single case in which the
cattle were rustled when the helicopter was seen.

Recently, new cases have started to erupt in New York State.
Before that they were mostly from California to Illinois. If you
come across any news stories about helicopters, I would like to
see copies.

There is one other thing to keep on the alert for. I have come
across six different cases in six different parts of the country
in which exceptionally bright children from fairly poor families
were given tests in school which determined that these children
were the brightest in their schools. These were children who
also claim their family bad a great deal of psychic ability.
These children were approached by someone claiming to represent
the U.S. government. These representatives made an offer that
the government would finance their kids' college education -- if
the chhdren would sign an agreement that when they got out of
college they would automatically go into government service. Not
military service, but govennnent service. This seems to me to be
a rather extraordinary program. The government does have
programs to finance exceptional chddren with the agreement that
the students will pay somehow after they get out of college --
 but I am aware of no deal wherein the students would have to go
into the government when they get out of college.

When I was in Washington I decided to get to the bottom of this
thing. I was with the department of Health, Education, and
Welfare. I nosed around, and no one has ever heard of such a
thing. I've tried to keep in touch with these six contacted
families, but now I have lost communications with all of them. I
would like to find out what has happened to them -- or what will
happen to them when their kids are out of school. This doesn't
sound like something the CIA would go in for. They are
interested in a certain psychological aspect of people, not
intelligence. All these kids have psychic ability. There are a
lot of kids with high IQs who have not been approached, so
psychic ability must be a credential. Why do they single them
out? Again I ask, as with so many aspects of this phenomenon,
just what is really going on?

The October wave is actually part of the enormous 1972-73 flap
and is following to the letter the patterns of the previous
waves. I expect the greatest peak to occur in March-April 1974.
When that subsides we will hear very little about UFOs until
1978-79. However, the next really significant wave will not take
place until about 1984. By that time a complete and rational
explanation of the phenomenon will be common knowledge, and the
whole delightful extraterrestrial concept will be a thing of the
past.

Thousands of people around the world now know all there is to
know about the UFO phenomenon. Unfortunately, very few Americans
are in this group because they have been misled for years by
fanciful speculations, deliberately misleading manisfestations
and chimeras, dark suspicions of mythical conspiracies and, most
of all, fanatical emotionalism.

Essentially the phenomenon can be divided into two parts. The
meandering nocturnal lights are the real mystery and still
remain unexplained by astronomy. The objects and apparitions
seen on the ground, or close to it, comprise the second part.
These range from complex hallucinations to elaborate
transmogrifications, often accompanied by incredible distortions
of reality and manipulations of time and space. Such
manifestations have been known, and recorded, thoroughout
history, and their true nature was recognized and defined
thousands of years ago.

Collectively, American ufologists are ill informed and poorly
educated in history, philosophy, and the behavioral sciences. So
they have failed to recognize what is actually happening (in
contrast to what they think is happening).

Ufology is essentially a new system of belief, not a new system
of scientific fact. As such, it is no more substantive than the
study of angels and the medieval cataloging of chimeras. Indeed,
the deeper one penetrates into the ufological problems, the more
he finds himself rediscovering Heraclitus.

END OF INTERVIEW

This article is courtesy of researcher
Jerry Hamm
of Napoleon, OH






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   Oct > Oct 15

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:25:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:33:37 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>>>Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
>>>ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
>>>were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
>>>account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
>>>for this?

>>Sorry, what's this got to do with what's in Ramey's office?

>>Among my personal calculations was seeing what happened if the
>>balloon rose and fell exactly as fast as Flight #5 the next day.
>>If the balloon had risen significantly slower because of
>>attached Rawins, all that would have happened is that it would
>>have ended up even further away from the Foster Ranch crash
>>site.

>This question was a slight digression but germain to the issue
>indirectly. It was a fact that was stated in the manual and than
>I wondered if this variable was taken into account. My
>understanding was that several targets were involved in the
>Mogul train. That being the case it would play an important role
>in how the acsent rate of the mogul train. It's to important a
>variable to omit in the calculations. I wonder what professor
>Moore's response would be to this. I'm sure he would have an
>answer.

Andrew,

Why not just use a dartboard for your ascent-rate calculations?

Prof Moore would probably be glad to lend you his.


Dave Morton






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   Oct > Oct 15

             Re: Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:47:18 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:36:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Reports On BC July 28, 2003 Continue - Balaskas


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:01:58 -0700
>Subject: Reports On The BC July 28, 2003 Continue

>I keep receiving reports from July 28, 2003. This one came in
>today. If my brain is working right, I believe there are around
>180 witnesses to this event - plus a large object which passed
>through the area at almost the same time. Whatever the so-called
>ray of light was that was witnessed, is still up in the air. I
>am sure there are a lot of ideas floating around as to what this
>may have been. But as said at the bottom of this witness' email,
>the Penticton Observatory was contacted and they had no idea
>what it was. So just another mystery!

>Hi

>I live in Cherryville, B.C. My son and his friend woke me up at
>about 12:30 a.m. on July 28th, to verify what they were looking
>at in the sky.

>The ray of light (using the term "ray" loosely as the light did
>not have actual defined edge and straightness like a beam of
>light - the edges of the light were "fuzzy"), appeared to come
>from the west (I say appeared because it just looked like it was
>just sitting in the sky) and went straight East dividing the
>whole sky.

>It was spectacular!

>They did not notice anything previous to this - they were
>partying. We watched the light for a good half hour - it seemed
>to move - like almost divide into two parts and then come back
>together. It was quite low as you could distinguish that the
>stars (which were very visible that night) were way off in the
>distance.

>I told my dad about this and his first reaction was that it was
>probably something to do with the HART (I don't know if I
>spelled that correctly) Project. HBCC UFO (HARRP Project she is
>referring to).

>A friend at work who lives in Armstrong said here husband woke
>up that night and went outside because he thought it was awfully
>light out and he new it was not a full moon. He witnessed the
>same thing. He contacted the Penticton Observatory and they said
>that they had quite a few enquiries about the "light in the sky"
>but had no explanation.

>HBCC UFO Research

Hi Brian! Hi Everyone!

It looks like we have a mysterious sky phenomenon in this part
of British Columbia that scientists have noted and even given a
name to ("Okanagan Arch") but which science still cannot
explain. Below is an e-mail I sent to my radio astronomer friend
Chris (and occasional UFO investigator) in B.C. for his opinion
of what these witnesses reported to HBCC UFO Research. Chris' e-
mail reply follows mine.

**********

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:31:31 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
To: Chris Purton <snip>
Subject: Reports On The July 28, 2003 Event Still Coming in.

Hi Chris!

Since "Penticton Observatory" is mentioned in the report below,
would you happen to know what all these numerous witnesses saw
in the skies over B.C.? Are you still working as a radio
astronomer with the Herzberg Institute for Astrophysics in
B.C.?*

Since there was no Moon in the sky that night, could these
"rays" be columns of smoke blown by the prevailing winds from
west to east but made visible from the light of the fires just
beyond the horizon?* Major forest fires were raging in the
interior of B.C. at that time. Can you also tell us what the
weather conditions were that night or if there were any major
auroral display?

Nick Balaskas

*You once investigated a UFO sighting and recorded some strange
sounds with your audio cassette player. Would you be interested
to listen to some audio clips taken during other encounters
with UFOs and letting me know your comments?

**Sometime back in 1969(?) I lived in Toronto near a large
lumber yard which caught fire and was allowed to burn through
the night. Witnesses on the other side of Lake Ontario saw an
unusual glow in the direction of Toronto to the north which
[ ] they interpreted as the entire city being on fire!

**********

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Purton <snip>
To: Nikolaos@yorku.ca
Subject: July 28

Hi Nick,

I am indeed still at the Penticton Observatory, officially
retired now but still here.Not sure I can help you a whole lot
with the July 28 event.My recollection is that the fires had
started before then so their effects is certainly something to
consider.On the other hand this summer I became aware of a
phenomenon known as the 'Okanagan Arch', a whitish band which
crosses the sky, similar in form to an aurora but not an aurora
colour, persists for hours, is seen in the Okanagan from time to
time, and nobody knows what it is, in particular nobody at the
observatory. One of these was reported in mid-August, and the
descriptions you sent for July 28 sound very similar but I don't
know of any other confirmation for that time.

<snip>

**********


Nick Balaskas







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                        Terry Hansen's Corso Critique

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:00:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:14:09 -0400
Subject: Terry Hansen's Corso Critique


This is the first in a series of critiques pulled off the net in
late 1997.

-----

The Day After Roswell by Philip Corso

Comments by Terry Hansen <twhansen@cuix.pscu.com>

I just read Philip J. Corso's book, "The Day After Roswell."
Weird stuff. It's an odd mix of obviously wrong or distorted
information woven together with stuff that actually makes a lot
of sense and correlates with information I've picked up
elsewhere.

My own analysis of the UFO situation, as suggested in my paper,
"The Psychology of Dreamland," is that the government continues
to *behave* as if it were in a major war with someone. But since
it clearly isn't the Soviet Union, who could it be? So the
aspect of Corso's book that interests me most is his assertion
that a secret war has been going on under the cover of the Cold
War. This would explain a great deal, particularly the tendency
of major media organizations such as The New York Times to
endorse official UFO-related press releases with virtually no
critical examination, while blowing off obviously credible
sources as "UFO buffs and conspiracy theorists." As a
journalist, this strikes me as either criminal incompetence, or
a suggestion that the NYT has been persuaded to cooperate with
the military for national-security reasons. They've done this
ever since World War II when they could be convinced that
national security was at stake. (Tim Weiner, in fact, recently
wrote an interesting story for the Times relating how the
publisher pulled a reporter off a Guatemala story after being
asked to do so by the CIA.)

Even more interesting to me is the timing of the most recent Air
Force Roswell report which came out simultaneous with the
release of the Corso book. Was this a coincidence? The
journalist in me suspects it was not.

Perhaps Corso is just an old soldier who sees the end of his
life approaching and wants to go down in history by telling a
few tales the U.S. government does not yet want us to know. In
this case, it would be necessary to distract the media away from
the book with a P.R. blitz.

The question is, if this is really a major breach of security,
why not just prevent the book from being published in the first
place? (This is entirely possible in the case of national
security.) Perhaps the government does want us to know more
about the UFO situation, but only via sources whose credibility
is somewhat questionable. It would be too shocking and
disruptive for people to learn about it any other way. So why
not let drips and drabs of the story out, but in a way that has
relatively little potential for social disruption and culture
shock. This is merely speculation on my part but it fits the
pattern already established by the Bob Lazar story, MJ-12, and
the "alien autopsy."

On the other hand, maybe we are just being toyed with by rogue
elements of the military/intelligence community. As I've said
before, the really disturbing thing is that we have absolutely
no way to be sure.

 -- Terry Hansen, June 26, 1997


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice






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                    Other Things About Corso And His Book

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:59:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:11:25 -0400
Subject: Other Things About Corso And His Book


I think the posted questions and facts about "The day after
Roswell" are interesting. And I think that everyone missed
something about the whole. But first, here are some quotes:

>he asked: "Why did Corso write this?"
>-- which is a key question that all three reviewers asked.

>SOMEBODY has a PLAYBOOK,
>and we're being prepared for something BIG

>There are just too many witnesses to say nothing really
>happened.

>so random and incoherent you can easily suspect
>they were tossed in by someone who didn't really know the UFO
>literature, to give a manufactured story credibility

>what happened to the crash debris

>Corso's full story of the aliens includes
>more than this -- they're hostile, for instance, and they're
>genetically-engineered creatures, optimized for space travel.

>Finally, there's something else. Apparently this secret wasn't very
>tightly kept. The Soviets knew all about it. Even the Nazis did -
>Corso thinks they'd recovered their own alien UFO, and were on the
>way to learning the aliens' secrets.

>Who should we believe?

>It is all still being covered up because of fear of aliens,

>**The influence of elemental/satanic forces on the planet cannot be
>**discounted. Some of the reports reflect the mythology of old which
>**seem to be veiled in a new technological veneer.

>**Where on Earth are there bases large enough to handle secreted craft
>**of these sizes?

>The Corso book bothers me on a number of levels.

>Technical stuff (He really sucks!)

>To suggest the
>base as a defense against aliens is just plain garbage

>This book also bothers me as being a fine specimen of 50s-60s military
>arrogance.

>This concept echoes throughout the book. The real threat was
>aliens(!) but it was so secret all those stupid lawmakers couldn't be
>told of it, so the military had to do end runs to protect us.

>His remark about the real purpose for all our hardening and shielding
>of data and communications lines had more to do with preventing alien
>jamming/disruption than threats from the Soviets.

>He said the real reason
>for the shielding was to prevent unwanted interference from aliens.

>Is it some sort of "disinformation"? Many will say it is, but I don't
>know. Honestly, I'm not completely sure just what to make of it. I
>know it's not the truth, that he's likely a loon, but beyond that....


So there are loads of questions...

The book is in the spirit of aliens and alien technology. Corso
believes in the aliens. What's more, he wants to force this upon
us. He has a massive hate of Russians (Soviets), so a distrust
in the US army - while he glorifies the success of this very
same army in technological development...

Well, until this point, it's alright. But then he wants to make
us believe things, which are so ridiculous and unbelievable and
incoherent that almost everyone can realize it (at least, who
knows something about the behaviour of the USArmy). And, he is
always returning to the German war technologies and glorifies
them!

Why?? Corso also took part in WW2, so he could face the
wartechnologies during that time.When Corso got into the
Pentagon in 1961, that tech had to be out of date for ages! But
he glorifies them still, after the war for more than 15 yrs (in
his book more than 50 yrs after Roswell)!

If we read carefully, we can realize that there _is_ something
he couldn't say frankly. Something that he wanted to whisper for
us. "Roswell is a real thing, it had really happened once. The
US gov. understood and used that technology of the saucer. But
there were no questions of aliens! NO. In Roswell, the horrors
of the WW2 returned. The US Army faced again with the technology
of the Nazis and their biological dreadful things. It was a
declaration of war. The WW2 is not over yet. Search for the
secret German weapons!..."

Let's see. Firstly, the US army suspected a secret Soviet craft
in Roswell - as Corso states. The vehicle much resembled to some
known Nazi aircrafts, presented at the end of the WW2 -
 especially the half-moon shaped Horton-wings. (Horton-IX, to be
correct. Don't forget that the year is '47 now, so the US knew
what did the Soviets get - not the Horton-wings, they were US-
British-Canadian spoils of war!)

And don't forget that Corso was the only person who got some ex-
Nazi scientists in the whole Roswell case. Wernher von Braun,
for example (who had been the member of the SS of Himmler during
the war). According to Corso's words: von Braun was well-
informed in UFO-case. (And so on.)

Which is most remarkable: the notes of Corso on the bodies of
the crash. He says that they were too human-like and they have
to be in connection with our race in some way. Let me quote
again the above mentioned quote:

>Corso's full story of the aliens includes
>more than this -- they're hostile, for instance, and they're
>genetically-engineered creatures

Except that they were not aliens. At least, not
_extraterrestrials_... Yes. There has to be a slave where there
is a superior being. The medical-genetical experiments of the
Nazis (dr. Josef Mengele, for example) included not only
creating the perfect, superior human race but the creation of
the slaves too.


We can fit the puzzle together:

1. What/who crashed in Roswell?

2. Why has to keep Roswell as a secret, closed apart from the
world?

3. If they weren't ETs, why do the US secret agencies try to
keep up this appearance?

4. Why do other secret agencies are so interested in UFOs,
despite the fact that there weren't ETs?

5. What was the job of the MJ-12?

Roswell was the evidence of the discoveries of Admiral Byrd in
Antarctica. A Nazi base exists there (Base 211) - Roswell gave
them an evidence. Did they say: "Sorry, folks, the WW2 is not
over, there are still some Nazis out there, and they're stronger
than ever"? Of course not...

Okay, that's enough for now. So Corso just wanted to give us
something, while he could not speak openly...


- Bondi -
[from Hungary]

P.S.: some interesting links, some piece of info about the Nazi-
theory :)


http://www.mailbox.de/~linke/disks/base211/baseen.html

http://www.ufo.it/german/

http://www.ufo.it/german/ger-link.htm

http://www.sightings.com/splashscreens/splashder1.html

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newse/may/nazi.html


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) fortean1@mindspring.com
 Alternate: fortean1@msn.com
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
 U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
  TLCB Web Site: http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org[Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]






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   Oct > Oct 15

                         Tom Mahood's Corso Critique

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:01:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:16:36 -0400
Subject: Tom Mahood's Corso Critique


Philip Corso's "The Day After Roswell"

Reviewed by Tom Mahood <tmahood@ibm.net>

The Corso book bothers me on a number of levels. First of all,
there are MANY items that suggest this is all delusional crap.
I'll list enough until I get tired:

The Foreword by Strom Thurmond seems to me to be clearly written
as if it were for a book on the history of military
intelligence, just as Thurmond claims he was mislead to believe.
It seems to have nothing to do with what the book is actually
about.

His putting Marcel at the site of a crashed vehicle. Why didn't
Marcel tell it that way if it happened?

He mentions Sar[a]bacher and his briefing of Wilbert Smith as
support that this happened. Trouble is, the briefing had nothing
to do with Roswell, but rather involved a crash near Aztec.
That's real clear when you look at the documentation.

He speculates a great deal, then just blows by it, leaving the
reader with the impression that it is fact, when it is actually
just his rather wild speculation.

He talks of the craft being stored at Norton AFB [California],
without seemingly being aware that Norton has been closed down
for quite some time.

Technical stuff (He really sucks!):

His description of how the vehicle operates, where the
"occupants rode within an electromagnetic wave" is just plain
BS. It's right up there with the stories from the 50s that told
how UFO "moved along the Earth's magnetic lines of force". Even
giving great latitude for the possibility that he didn't
understand how they worked, what he spiels is just nonsense.

He says stealth technology is a spinoff from the craft,
particularly the skin. More junk. The main component to stealth
is the shape of the aircraft, although the skin plays a lesser
role. The technology evolution of stealth is well documented and
there is no mysterious infusion of ideas.

He talks of the "laser" (which, BTW, he mistakenly calls light
amplification by stimulated energy radiation....It's actually
"stimulated emission of radiation") found on the craft and they
believed the EBEs used them for navigation by bouncing them off
objects in space and triangulating (I'm not making this
up...it's on page 180!), power transmission(!), and
communication. He goes on at length about how he is sure the
EBE's use them to communicate. Unless you have fixed positions,
lasers are not too great of a communications tool, because of
their very narrow beamspread. You have to point it very
carefully to keep the party you want to talk to in the beam.
Even if you use it point to point, there are very large losses
in the atmosphere.

Here's a doozy. It's implied that HAARP (mistakenly referred to
in the book as HARP) has something to do with alien technology,
even on the book jacket. Then read what he has to say about it
(page 220). First off he implies it's a weapon to shoot down
UFOs. Then he really loses it and says it was the brainchild of
Dr. Gerald Bull. Bull was the guy into building giant cannons,
and was allegedly killed by Israeli agents due to his work for
the arabs. Anyway, Bull has NOTHING to do with HAARP. But what's
odd, is that he mentions HAARP in the first part of one
paragraph (bogusly tieing in Bull), then rambles off for two
pages on Bull's giant cannons, never again mentioning HAARP,
this in a section specifically labeled "HARP - the High Altitude
Research Project". This is his typical rambling. You see it
later with almost a whole chapter on Tesla, supposedly about a
death ray and having nothing to do with Roswell, aliens or
anything other than his imagination.

His knowledge of particle beams seems at the level of someone
who read something a long time ago and forgot it.

I've seen the reports on Project Horizon (the Army's proposed
moon base) before. Really crazed stuff, right out of a late
1950s sci-fi movie. And totally useless. Useful for recon?
 Give me a break. At 240,000 miles (11 times further than
geosynchronous satellites) you'd be waaaay too damned far to see
much of earth. Our spy satellites are less than 200 miles up
and they have real limits. A communications relay station?
 Yeah, right, with a 3 second lag. To suggest the base as a
defense against aliens is just plain garbage (I'm running out of
synonyms for "bullshit"!) Can you say "sitting duck"? I knew
you could.

There's PLENTY more, but I'm getting tired of writing and you
get my drift by now. I confess, while reading it I was a little
more receptive, but now as I write this and look back on the
totality of it all, it's crap, crap, crap....

-----------------------------------------------------------

This book also bothers me as being a fine specimen of 50s-60s
military arrogance. If true, what he says about the missile
crisis is a good example. Supposedly, this guy is shown top
secret recon photos of Cuba with the missiles, and right away he
not only leaks it to a couple of Senators, but also to the
press! This, because he KNEW Kennedy wouldn't do anything about
it and it would force the issue. So much for his security oath.
It's assholes like this that give rise to the Ollie Norths in
the military... those that know better than the elected civilian
government. This is particularly damning in light of all the
info that's been declassified in recent years about what was
REALLY going out about the missile crisis at the highest levels,
on both sides. This boy was way outta his league and should have
been slapped down real hard.

This concept echoes throughout the book. The real threat was
aliens(!) but it was so secret all those stupid lawmakers
couldn't be told of it, so the military had to do end runs to
protect us.

I'm also curious (he never says) why he's taken it upon himself
to blow the lid off it all. He was a rabid protector of the
secret for so many years, but now HE'S decided it's OK to tell
the public. Well, at least that's in keeping with his previous
patterns. "Do what you think is right and to hell with
procedures and the Constitution". He knows it all...the mark of
a true believer.

Finally, he closes on an odd note. He wants to leave the
impression we have kicked some alien butt and won the "war". I
guessed I missed it when it happened. It seems to me that
abductions are as high as they've ever been, as are cattle
mutilations, both of which he attributes to those sinister
little gray guys. So where's the big win? The little lights seem
to be flitting around our skies just as much as they ever were.

-------------------------------------------------

Is there anything redeeming about it? Strangely, yes. The
mechanism he suggests is quite plausible for covertly
introducing new technology into the mainstream. That certainly
doesn't make it true, but it's not as outlandish as some of his
other whoppers.

His remark about the real purpose for all our hardening and
shielding of data and communications lines had more to do with
preventing alien jamming/disruption than threats from the
Soviets. Oddly, a few years ago I was told something very
similar about TEMPEST shielding (the same stuff) by a source I
deemed reliable. He said the real reason for the shielding was
to prevent unwanted interference from aliens. A bit farfetched,
but I see the same item surface again, albeit this time from an
apparent loon.

Then there's the obvious question of why he would write it. He's
certainly had a pretty decent career, so why sully it with this
UFO biz? Much of what he writes is checkable (and what I've
checked comes up lacking), so if he's making it up he's gotta
know he's going down. Is it some sort of "disinformation"? Many
will say it is, but I don't know. Honestly, I'm not completely
sure just what to make of it. I know it's not the truth, that
he's likely a loon, but beyond that....


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>








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   Oct > Oct 15

                        Greg Sandow's Corso Critique

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:02:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:20:33 -0400
Subject: Greg Sandow's Corso Critique


Philip Corso's "The Day After Roswell"

Reviewed by Greg Sandow
via Virgil Priscu <priscuv@shani.net>

Damn. I never meant to buy it. I just thought I'd sit and read
it in the bookstore, to see what it was like. But it turned out
to be more substantial, more dubious, and more just plain quirky
than I expected, so I had to have a copy.

Here's what's in it. The central UFO theme is a lot more
detailed and newer than anyone has yet suggested here. But
there's a smorgasbord of UFO references - Roswell, abductions,
the autopsy file, cattle mutilations, MJ-12 - so random and
incoherent you can easily suspect they were tossed in by someone
who didn't really know the UFO literature, to give a
manufactured story credibility.

And that's not all. Corso makes claims about non-UFO history -
the U-2 incident and the Cuban Missile Crisis - that are, shall
we say, at variance with the usual accounts. It turns out, in
fact, that even in non-UFO terms Corso is a key figure in
postwar events, and, if we factor in his alleged UFO role, he
becomes one of the most important people in the 20th century.
Though to give him credit, he's modest about his stature and in
fact says that the importance of his work hadn't even occurred
to him until he sat down to write what apparently (he's not
entirely clear about this) was originally going to be quite a
different memoir.

If I've read him correctly on this last point, of course, then
Thurmond's staff might be right when they say they originally
had an outline with nothing in it about UFOs. However, Corso
says in the book that Thurmond knew the UFO secret, so Thurmond
was going to be involved with the book whether he wrote the
foreword or not.

To discuss some of these points in greater detail:

The key to Corso's UFO information is the title of the book --
 "The Day After Roswell." This refers to something initially
quite limited, and fascinating - what happened to the crash
debris. Corso says that it initially got scattered scientific
study, some of which led to the development of the transistor.
But then it languished, until the early '60s when Corso went to
work for a foreign technology unit of the U.S. Army. His
superior asked him to look at the stuff, and suggest what might
be done with it. Corso's report (I'm leaving out all the
"supposedly"s here, to save wear and tear on my typing fingers)
led to an ingenious project, in which suggestive bits of alien
st=FD=FF=FF=FF,funneled into private-industry research projects that
were already used to getting terrestrial foreign technology, and
not asking questions about it. That is, one week they'd get
parts from a crashed Soviet jet. The next week they'd get
something alien. They wouldn't be told what either thing was.
The point here was to keep the work secret by NOT starting a
massive new project - and, by the way, to cover the tracks of
any alien-based technological developments.

This sounds plausible to me, though I'd be quick to stress I
don't have the military or intelligence background for my
assessment to mean much. One key to the plan was that security
was just as important as information. That's why a full-bore
study wasn't unleashed from the start. Corso's full story of the
aliens includes more than this - they're hostile, for instance,
and they're genetically-engineered creatures, optimized for
space travel. And it has a grand and glorious conclusion. After
alien technology helped create night vision equipment and
lasers, among much else, it finally helped us build particle-
beam weaponry that - when deployed as part of Reagan's Star
Wars program - not only brought the cold war to an end, but
brought about a stalemate with the aliens, whose UFOs could now
be shot down! Corso somewhat fudges the extent of his
involvement with this, since he left the army shortly after
setting the initial project in motion (though his fudging may
just be a reflection of a general carelessness that afflicts
much of the narrative). Still, if this is where his work led,
he's a hero - clearly, as the man who set us on the path of
military equality with an alien invading force, one of the great
heroes of our time.

One passing thought: We've read here that somebody traced the
development of the transistor through patents and articles in
scientific journals, and found every step accounted for, thus
suggests that the project was set up to create precisely this
impression. Besides - and here I'm speaking for myself --
 patents and journal articles don't record where engineers and
scientists get their ideas. If somebody's thinking is stimulated
by a fragment of an alien TV set, they still have to theorize
and experiment to imitate the thing - and it's those theories
and experiments that show up in published data, not the
inspiration for them.

So what about Corso's non-UFO heroism? This, friends and fellow
ufologists, is a doozy. Corso takes personal credit for U.S.
resistance to Soviet missiles in Cuba. I'm not exaggerating.
Corso says he had photographs clearly showing the missiles, and
says that he knew President Kennedy wasn't going to do anything
about it. So he leaked the information to Senator Kenneth
Keating of New York, and, most crucially, to a reporter - and
says that it was the reporter's articles that forced Kennedy to
act!

Needless to say, you can't find this in standard histories.
Keating, it's true, sounded an early alarm; that I could
document. But - while Corso is in synch with standard histories
when he says the CIA didn't believe that Soviet ICBMs were in
Cuba - the usual story depicts a steady buildup of data within
the Kennedy administration that quickly persuaded Kennedy to
act.

Corso also appears out to lunch when he reproduces quotes from
phone conversations between Eisenhower and Soviet premier
Khrushchev about the U-2 flights that eventually would wreck a
U.S.-Soviet summit meeting. Corso seems to say (again, the
sloppy tracking of details throughout the book makes this hard
to be sure about) that his source is a buddy in the KGB, and
he's correct, according to standard histories, to say that
Eisenhower was dubious about the flights, and that the USSR knew
all about them, even before they shot one down. But that
Khruschchev and Eisenhower ever talked about it before the
shooting, and even that they ever talked on the phone, is, um,
new. You won't find any reference to it in the standard Stephen
Ambrose biography of Eisenhower, or in Khrushchev's memoirs. For
what it's worth, the hot line between the White House and the
Kremlin wasn't even installed till the '60s.

There's also a hint somewhere about the CIA plotting Kennedy's
assassination. Nothing more on the subject. And everything in
the book is buried in a subtext right out of a spy novel. The
CIA (which follows Corso around Washington to see what he's up
to) is shipping secrets to the Russians. Nevertheless, an
unstated bond between the CIA and the KGB adds a touch of
stability to U.S.-Soviet relations, and Corso quite happily
makes deals with the Soviet military, which hates the KGB. On
one memorable page he even gets photocopies smuggled out of the
Soviet embassy - the point being to find out exactly what
secrets the CIA has revealed!

Thurmond? The reference to his secret knowledge is brief, and
just a bit coy. I can't find it, for the moment, and the book
has no index. But in essence it's this. Corso finds his
superior, General Arthur Trudeau, talking to Thurmond. Thurmond
says something about "them," and Corso understands that "they"
are the aliens. If that's all he has to go on, you might wonder
why he's so sure but he does state outright that Thurmond knew.

UFO data? What a mishmash. The books begins, in fact, with an
account of the Roswell crash, complete with reconstructed
dialogue. It reads like fiction - or, to give a proper UFO
antecedent, like one of Keyhoe's books, though the facts Keyhoe
alleged always checked out. Maybe to give himself an out, Corso
says he's heard many versions of the crash story, and that this
is just one of them. As we've read here, Major Jesse Marcel is
on hand at the crash site, overseeing the recovery of the body
of the craft, and the aliens. That's at variance with standard
Roswell accounts, which, as Dennis Stacy has pointed out, leave
us wondering why Marcel wasn't there, or, if he was, why he
never talked about it afterwards.

But there's more. A sentry shoots an alien that starts to move,
and there are named witnesses heretofore unknown (or at least
not listed in the indexes of the standard Roswell books). Who's
Steve Arnold? Corso says he rode shotgun on one of the staff
cars heading for the recovery site, and was the first to
disembark. Who's Roy Danzer, a plumbing subcontractor who was
fitting pipe at the base, and saw the recovery convoy arriving
with the alien bodies, one of which Danzer saw?

Corso mentions the members of MJ-12, without naming the
organization. He says the aliens have six fingers; that's from
the autopsy film. He's confusing on abductions. I've said that
much in this book isn't clear, and the abduction references go
to the front (or rear) of the pack. It's hard to tell, but Corso
does seem to state that abductions were known in the '50s and
known to be widespread in the '60s, something the UFO literature
won't support. (But when Corso might have been referring to
secret military data. Who knows?)

These UFO references are a mess, basically. Corso at least
should have noted where they fit. As in: "Yes, UFO researchers
have found these names, and say they were part of a group called
MJ-12. I never heard that name, but the group did exist, and
these were the guys who ran it." As things stand, every one of
these references seems phony, as if Corso (or his ghostwriter)
had plucked factoids from various UFO sources, to make the story
seem credible.

What WOULD make the tale believable? More facts. Backup.
Corroboration. The book, taken as a whole, is simply weird.
Suppose it's fake. Why on earth would Corso, after what appears
to have been a distinguished career, smash his reputation
for....what, money? Fame? Attention? Why would he say Thurmond
knew the secret, when that means Thurmond would certainly be
asked, and presumably would deny the whole thing?

But then suppose the story is real. Is this how a distinguished
military man spills the greatest secret in human history? By
hiring a ghostwriter to write an incoherent popular potboiler?
Wouldn't a better plan be, first, to make sure the book makes
sense, and addresses obvious problems right where they occur,
and second to call a press conference, in which supporting
evidence and maybe even a supporting witness or two would see
the light of day?

There's precious little in the book for anyone to work with.
Here and there you find a name - "Dr. Mark Johnson," for
instance, identified as an "aeronautical research scientist"
from Hughes Aircraft, whom Corso says he met at Fort Belvoir
[Virginia], and who knew the alien secret. Does this man exist?
And how did Corso emerge from this long history without a single
document? All he seems to have are some shadowy photos of UFOs,
and even these he says he can't vouch for as genuine.

But wait - there ARE documents! He mentions them in the text,
and even quotes from them. For instance, he has a private copy
of General Trudeau's apparently unpublished memoirs. He even
quotes a paragraph, in which UFOs aren't mentioned. Is that the
best he could do? What do the rest of the memoirs say? Would I
be right to suspect that UFOs aren't mentioned anywhere in them?

And then there are Corso's sharply written reports to Trudeau,
which he quotes from liberally. Could we, perhaps, see a page or
two? Can we verify that they really were written in the '60s, or
that at least they could have been? What security markings do
they bear, if any? The book doesn't tell us.

Corso also mentions his journals. Can we see them? Can we verify
their age? This is getting frustrating - unless, of course, we
simply conclude that the whole thing is bogus, and that we're
not seeing these documents because they don't exist.

Finally, there's something else. Apparently this secret wasn't
very tightly kept. The Soviets knew all about it. Even the Nazis
did - Corso thinks they'd recovered their own alien UFO, and
were on the way to learning the aliens' secrets. The ET threat
was discussed at National Security Council meetings, he also
says, was known about at high levels in all the armed services,
and was widely known (or at least rumored) in science and
private industry.

So where's the evidence for that? Stalin, Corso says, pitched a
fit when he heard about Roswell. Are there Kremlin files that
say so? And what about the hundreds or thousands of politicians,
generals, admirals, Washington insiders, scientists and
industrial magnates who knew about the aliens? Surely - if
Corso's book is true, and he's still alive after writing it --
 somebody, somewhere, is going to step forward to say that they
were there, too.

(Delightful fact! Corso's view of the aliens does not support
other alleged insiders' reports - not Bob Lazar's, with its
spacecraft fueled by element 115, or William Uhouse's (he being
Glenn Campbell's "Jarod II"), with its deal between the ETs and
our government: their technology in exchange for a steady supply
of boron. Who should we believe?)

Greg Sandow


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) <fortean1@mindspring.com>






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   Oct > Oct 15

                 Who's Monkeying With Colonel Corso's Book?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:10:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:23:14 -0400
Subject: Who's Monkeying With Colonel Corso's Book?


Who is Monkeying Around

Flying Saucer Review/Volume 45/1 Spring 2000, pp. 14 & 15

Who's Monkeying with Colonel Corso's Book? by Gordon Creighton

It will be recalled that, in our article on Colonel Corso on
page 15 of FSR 43/3 (Autumn 1998), we mentioned that,
immediately after his return from his important high post in the
Allied Military Government of Italy, the Colonel had been posted
to the Military Intelligence School, and was at Fort Riley in
Kansas.

And he goes on to tell us (page 23 of the first edition of his
book*, July 1997) that after the UFO crash at Roswell on or
about July 4, 1947, the debris was recovered by the U.S. Army
and shipped to Fort Bliss (El Paso), Texas, then the
Headquarters of the Eighth Army Air Force (at that date the
Americans had no separate Air Force), and from Fort Bliss some
other debris went off by trucks to Wright-Patterson Air Field,
Ohio. *_The Day After Roswell_

The trucks with this second portion of the debris made a night
halt at Fort Riley, where as indicated above, Colonel Corso was
already stationed.

The Colonel goes on to describe (page 32 of the original
edition) how, on the night of Sunday, July 6, 1947, he entered
the old Veterinary Building at Fort Riley to take a look at the
thirty or so wooden crates and boxes of the Roswell consignment.

Flashlight in hand, he discovered that one box was not securely
closed, and looking into it, he was amazed to see a human-like
body, about 4 ft long, enclosed in a thick light-blue fluid
inside a thick glass container, and the accompanying Army
Intelligence document specifically identified the creature as
having come from the crash at Roswell a few days previously.
Colonel Corso tells us (page 32) that the creature had "bizarre-
looking four-fingered hands - I did not see a thumb."

Well, now, the only really expert civilian investigator of the
Roswell story in the early years was quite unquestionably
Leonard Stringfield, who spent decades on the job, and issued
six or seven thick detailed Reports or Situation Statements
(most of which was reported in FSR).

Stringfield was heavily subsidised by a very good personal
friend of his - a wealthy European prince - and I recall that
before he died recently Stringfield said, in one of his last
Roswell reports, that he had traced and interviewed and
interrogated many individuals who had seen either the Roswell
crashed UFO, or the dead crew, or both. (I forget how many - I
think he said he had between 30 and 40 such statements from
witnesses.)

Stringfield's reports contained excellent and clear sketches of
the Roswell creatures' hands. He stated the sketches showed
plainly that the fingers were four in number, "claw-like", and
without thumbs. Now, what does Colonel Corso say? He says that,
prising up the lid, he saw a small creature, about 4 ft long,
with "bizarre-looking four-fingered hands. I didn't see a
thumb."

WHY THIS NOTE IN FSR?

Colonel Corso had not been in good health, and he died, aged 83,
at his home in Florida on July 16, 1998 (just one year after the
first issue of his book, in July 1997).

In June 1998 (just a month before he died - one may imagine he
would have been in no state to protest or comment) the
publishers (Pocket Books/Simon and Schuster) put out a paperback
edition, price US $6.99, and selling at UK pounds 6.99 in
England. ISBN 0-671-01756-X).

The blurb on the cover tells us that the paperback edition is
"updated", with sensational new material, but I have had it
checked by one of our readers and compared with the original,
and we find only one "amendment"! And what is the amendment?
Instead of "bizarre-looking four-fingered hands" we find
"bizarre-looking six-fingered hands", (p. 34 of the paperback).

What light can one throw on this mystery? The covers of both
editions show that Col. Corso had a writer to help him, Mr
William J. Birnes, and one may well assume that this was
necessitated by his failing health. Mr Birnes' name is on both
editions.

It so happens that very shortly before his death, Col. Corso
attended the UFO conference in San Marino, Italy. And there he
met, and had a long chat with, Desmond Leslie. From Desmond
Leslie's own account to me, it seems that Corso was furious with
Mr Birnes, and gave Desmond Leslie to understand that he had a
law-suit going on against Birnes. Desmond Leslie said also that
the reason for the law-suit was that Corso was highly displeased
because Birnes had not written the story as it should have been
written. (!)

At what conclusion can anyone arrive except at the impression
that there is some monkey-business going on here, by party or
parties unknown. And what can the purpose be, if it is not to
boost the credibility of the highly suspect Santilli film shown
in recent years, which features the alleged dissection of an
alien body which has six fingers?

NOTE BENE - SIX FINGERS

It had not been my purpose to express any opinion about the
"Santilli film", or indeed to suggest that six-fingered entities
do not, or cannot, exist. But, whereas I had never previously
been prepared to accept such an idea, I feel bound to say now
that one cannot disregard the work of so eminent and thorough a
researcher as Linda Moulton Howe, and those who know her
monumental two-volume work Glimpses of Other Realities, Vols. I
and II (1993 and 1998) will know that, on pages 7, 9, 44, 45 and
46 of the second volume (1998) she gives a surprising amount of
evidence that aliens with six fingers do indeed exist!

Even more astonishing is the evidence that the U.S. authorities
possess square metal plaques, in pairs, which bear the sunken
outlines into which six-fingered hands can be slotted - no doubt
in connection with the drive of their craft!

At any rate, if such six-fingered folk do exist, we may say with
certitude that they are not related in any way to the Roswell
story. Both Leonard Stringfield and Colonel Corso have spoken
clearly on that score.

One final point: In my note about Colonel Corso on page 15 of
FSR 44/3 I quoted a report from the MUFON Journal of July 1998
to the effect that C.A.U.S. (Citizens Against UFO Secrecy) had
issued an announcement that Colonel Corso had not only declared
in his book that he had opened a crate at Fort Riley and seen a
small entity with four-fingered hands inside, but had also
subsequently sworn under oath that his statement about the
matter was true.

The evidence seems to show very clearly that Colonel Corso knew
what he was talking about. It seems unlikely that this tampering
with his book would have met with his approval.

TAIL-PIECE

In a recent article about the French Cometa Report on UFOs, I
said it was a downright scandal, and a shame on France, that the
report contained no mention of any of the eminent French
civilian investigators who had laboured for so many years in the
search for Truth. Equally scandalous and shameful for the USA is
the fact that not a soul ever mentions Leonard Stringfield
today. Instead a new galaxy of Prima Donnas hold the stage on
the Roswell affair. G.C.


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 15

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:21:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:30:41 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:06:10 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story


>>>First, how do you know that the ML307 drawing issued by the
Air
>>>Force report is authentic?

>>Instead of asking some question with no obvious point, why not
>>just make your point? Is it that the AF cleverly altered the
>>original so that we would only think Ramey's object was a rawin
>>when it was not? If it is, that is way too conspiratorial for
>>me, frankly unbelievable.

>I thought the point was very clear which was within the question
>itself but certainly not the one you propose. I will interpret
>your answer as you don't no however, I think you should strongly
>consider the possibility that the SC-D-14407 drawing is a red
>herring for the following reasons:

Again, what is your point? Why would anybody want to create a
"red herring" drawing?

>First, it was issued as part of the Air Force report which right
>from the get go is suspect..

Lot's of things done by the Air Force are suspect, but why would
they bother to create a phony drawing? Do you really think they
could anticipate somebody looking at the Fort Worth photos years
later, see the white strips therein, and think that this somehow
exposed the rawin story as a lie, as you apparently do, because
you have gotten this absurd idea in your head that rawins
couldn't possibly have white strips.

>Second, sometime ago I corresponded with you regarding the
>historical account of the drawing where I had indicated that the
>legend on the drawing omitted the fact that there was a Model
>307A/AP which was one of the primary models in the development
>of the target. Professor Moore made no mention of this as well.
>You had indicated that the ommission was no big deal. It doesn't
>change the outcome. I disagreed with you on this point from the
>stance that such an omission would not be acceptable on an
>engineering drawing, especially one that the Signal Laboratory
>would issue out.

>Since our discussion on this I received a copy of Chapert IX of
>the TM 1-235 War Department Technical Manual titled "Radar
>Winds-Aloft Observation printed May 1945. On the front page of
>this chapter the Rawin Target is depicted hanging from a
>balloon. This without a doubt is the official military reference
>source for the Rawin Target. The manual clearly identifies the
>the ML307A/AP and ML307B/AP as two primary targets, so why
>doesn't the drawing mention anything about the ML307A/AP. The
>drawing only lists the ML307/AP and ML307B/AP. You might argue
>the point that they had just forgotten to put it the drawing but
>this would be a very weak agrument. Major model numbers are not
>just forgotten. You can omit a screw or a bolt but not an entire
>model by accident.

I fail to see what difference it makes. Why wasn't the first
Terminator movie called Terminator I? Maybe because nobody at
the time knew there were going to be sequels. Why isn't an
ML307A labeled as such instead of just as a ML307 on the
drawing? Maybe because there was no ML307B at the time. Later
the ML307 was referred to as an ML307A in manuals, just as the
first Terminator movie may now be referred to as Terminator I,
although the first movie has never been renamed on videotape or
DVD releases.

Again I see you trying to make issues out of what appear to be
insignificant minutia. I think the saying is you are trying to
make a Federal case out of nothing or mountains out of
molehills. I fail to see what difference it makes if they never
went back and relabeled the drawing as ML307A instead of ML307.
So what? You are obsessing over completely unimportant details.

>Third, the Air Force report listed the museum where they had
>obtained a copy the drawing. I attempted to get the second
>drawing which was suppose to show the exploded view of the
>ML307C/AP. I spoke to the curator of the museum who was the same
>person cited in the report. What she told me, and I have an
>email from her confirming this, there never was any such drawing
>located at this museum. And further to this she did not know why
>her name was mentioned in the Air Force report.

Questions: 1) Where is this museum and person referenced in the
AF report so I can look it up? 2) Which drawing are you
referring to that you say isn't there: What the AF published or
the second exploded view you were trying to obtain? 3) Is it
possible the curator doesn't know every single thing in the
museum and may not have been there if the drawing was indeed
obtained there?

>These are three very good reasons why I won't trust the
>information on the drawing and three good reasons why you
>shouldn't. The TM 1-235 manaul is the only official source to
>compare other information to such as the construction of the
>target etc.

Again, I still fail to see the significance of this. Why would
they print a phony drawing? What would they have been trying to
anticipate and how could they be so clever?

>>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>>>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the
first place.

Well, here's one possibility. The edges with foil strips on
white paper are the only ones to fold into the corners when the
targets are folded down for storage and shipping. Two of these
(on the top of the target) have to have sticks inserted back
into them when unfolded. It may have been their way of
distinguishing edges to avoid confusion in the process.

>>>As Neil , Ed and myself have tried to explain to you many
>>>times, this just won't work.

As I've tried to explain to you may times, why not? Get some
foil/paper candy or chewing gum wrapper, e.g. (same stuff as on
the radar targets), create a white fold-over strip, and secure
the foil-to-foil edge with Scotch tape. Half of the tape sticks
to the paper strip and half to the foil main surface. That works
just fine. Try it. This isn't rocket science. These were
balsa wood kites that only needed to hold together for a few
hours max in flight.

>>>The assembly instructions of the
>>>target clearly state the following: "The target is examined to
>>>see that the sides and corners are smooth and square. Any tears,
>>>loose sticks, or loose seams are repaired with tape applied to
>>>the paper surface rather than to the foil whenever possible".
.............................................^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Note the operative words, "whenever possible." The instruction
does not forbid taping to foil, now does it? It only says it is
preferable to tape to the paper "whenever possible." The seam I
suggested you try making out of chewing gum wrapper has half the
tape on paper and the other half on foil, certainly no violation
of the instruction.

>>>Now do you think for one minute that they would design a target
>>>so that you have to two foil sides glued together when they know
>>>that using tape on the foil side is not a good idea? I think
>>>not!

They didn't have to glue them together.

>>You can argue all you want that it never happened, but the
>>photos I keep pointing you to of other rawins clearly show white
>>strips on foil. Again:

>www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html
>>www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_launch_July1948.html

>>That you and Neil continue to ignore absolutely clear
>>photographic proof that you are wrong continues to amaze me.

>David, you are evading my questions.

No Andrew, you are the one evading photograph _proof_ that you
are wrong. I suppose the AF also cleverly altered such photos to
create white strips where none ever existed, knowing that people
like you would otherwise catch them in a lie.

>You have not provided one
>good solid technical reason why two foil sides would be glued
>together since that is the only way you can have white stripes.
>Why would you have some sides with a white strip and not all of
>the sides?

What the specs say is don't glue foil-to-foil and tape to paper
whenever possible. This does not in any way forbid the
existence of white strips, which can be made in other simple
ways (like simply Scotch- taping the seam).

I never said the white strips were formed by gluing
foil-to-foil. That's your straw man argument. I have pointed
out that photos of other Rawins clearly show the white strips,
and I have also directed you to specific instances on the
schematic which clearly shows such white strips. Your response
to the first is to ignore the photos (or below that they altered
the photos). Your response to the second is to claim that the
AF cleverly altered the schematic and to also argue lamely and
falsely that the specs on the schematic forbid such white
strips, when they clearly do not.

>The photo of the Mogal launch does not prove anything. This
>photo was taken on July 22, 1948, one year after the fact.

Another lame argument. Why would the Rawins have white strips
in 1948 and not in 1947? Were there any changes made in the
manufacture during that year?

>I will also add that the Mogul launch photo came from the Air
>Force report which as mentioned earlier is a questionable source
>of information as you see later on in this response. Take a look
>at how the sun is casting shadows in various areas of the photo.
>You will see some decrephanicies.

So now you are claiming they _did_ deliberately alter the photo.
And all this to add some minor detail like a very clear white
strip on foil that you claim can't possibly be there.

>There is only one official drawing that can be relied upon and
>that is the assembly drawing of the target in the TM 1-235
>manual. It shows very clearly that there are no foil to foil
>joints or white strips.

I haven't seen this drawing, but I won't take your word for what
it shows, since I've known you to misinterpret drawings before
and claim things that weren't true. I also don't see why this
can be relied upon any more than the AF published schematic or
the photos that contradict what you are saying.

>Couple this with the in-depth scans I
>received from UTA of the target photographed on July 9, 1947 and
>there is no question about it, there are no foil to foil joints
>or white strips. It's just not there.

You are grossly exaggerating when claiming that "there is no
question about it." As I pointed out to you back in March in
that hi-res scan you e-mailed me, the upper two edges may very
well have the white strips, but since the photo is looking
directly into the corner and virtually edge on, I can't be sure
they are there because the angle isn't right. But you also
can't claim that they definitely aren't there, which is
asserting a negative.

>>Third, what would you say is be the height of the panel
resting
>>>on Dubois's knee?

>>I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
>>bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
>>35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
>>on this edge.

>It looks like we have a problem here. We both agreed that the
>width of the carpet stripes is 1", 1.0143" to be exact but
>we'll call it an inch.

It is very close to that, but there is no way to be that "exact"
to 3 decimal places. Also do I need to point out that this is a
rug, not graph paper, and there could easily be some variation
from average in different areas of he rug?

>If you poject the carpet stripes in the
>RDB(Smiling) photo and count the number of stripes from the
>lower part of the stick along the bottom to the left edge you
>will count a total of 34 stripes, give or take a stripe or two.
>Granted there are folds dipping up and down and this will
>probably add a couple of inches for a total of 36".

So we are in agreement, within margin of error for measurement,
which I estimate at +/- 5% in my case. The diagonal framework
sticks measure about 35" on an ML307, so what's the big problem
here? This intact stick is exactly the length one would expect
for an ML307 target.

>Do you you see the problem here. There cannot be a panel with
>two sides 36".

No I don't see a problem here, except yet another example of you
not understanding basic construction details. The largely foil
triangle panel being so prominently displayed in all the FW
photos is one of two such triangular foil/paper panels used in
the construction. These are isosceles right triangles, which
were probably made by taking a _square_ sheet of 36"x36"
foil/paper and slicing it down the diagonal to form two right
triangles, about 36" x 36" x 50."

Note that two legs of these triangles are exactly the same
length. Where's the other matching leg of the triangle to the
35" stick in the FW photos? Why it's where the white strip is on
the left hand side. It's missing its stick, probably having had
it torn out. The torn bottom side of this triangle is the
hypotenuse, and would be where the target was attached to the
central axis framework. Again the sticks are missing along this
edge, having been torn away.

The other panels used in construction of the targets were one
36" x 36" square panel, and one small right triangle about 25" x
25" x 36" made by cutting a 36" x 36" square diagonally into
four equal triangular pieces.

For construction details illustrating all this:

www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html

>And yes, the bottom part of the panel is torn and
>we may not be seeing the complete panel. But lets assume that
>the bottom part of the panel was wider, than the stick on the
>right hand side of the panel would have be longer than 36".

Yes, it would be the hypotenuse, not the other leg of the right
triangle, and would have measured about 48" intact (taking into
account fold-over of ~1" along the two other edges). So what's
the problem?

>But
>this wouldn't make sense either because there shouldn't be any
>stick longer than 36" except for the strut that runs through
the
>center of the target which would be 48".

Yes, that is indeed the 48" edge of the triangle, which would
have been attached to two 25" core axis sticks, which have been
torn away. Again what's the problem here?

The core framework was made from one stick ~50" long (attached
to the diagonal of the square panel), but the rest of the core
x-y-z right angle framework was made from 4 other sticks about
25" in length. The hypotenuses of the two large triangular
panels were attached to these. Again look at the pictures on my
rawin construction page where there is all detailed, including
color-coded pictures showing how it the panels were attached to
the core sticks.

This is based, incidentally, on that AF schematic detailing
which surfaces are which. Of course, no doubt, they altered that
detailing as well to deceive us. These guys are criminal
masterminds.

>But, if we were seeing
>that part of the target, the configuation of the panel on
>Dubois's knee would look much different than what the photo is
>depicting.

>It doesn't add up does it?

It looks _exactly_ like one would expect for a largely intact
triangular ML307 Rawin panel: two ~34" edges corresponding to
the legs of the right triangle (one with one of those white
strips you claim didn't exist), and the long edge on the bottom
~48" corresponding to the hypotenuse.

>>Fourth, what part of the rawin target does the panel on Dubois's
>>>knee represent with respect to the drawing issued by the Air
>>>Force?

>>It is one of the two large triangular foil/paper panels in the
>>drawing that the AF so cleverly altered so as to confuse us.
>>Specifically it is the triangular panel labeled "C" forming the
>>"roof" of the left-hand corner in the drawing. A white strip
>>sheath for the framework stick is very clearly shown on the
>>drawing, including a cut-way showing the stick inside of it
>>(labeled "12"). Other white strips are also clearly shown on
>>this schematic, such as over the the right side, with a stick
>>labeled "11" showing threw another cut-way in a white sheath.

>This is new. This is the first time I have heard you mention
>anything about the AF altering the drawing. On what basis do you
>arrive at that consclusion? It looks like you have just
>confirmed what I was saying, the drawing is not to be trusted.

I think you missed my sarcasm. You tend to have an overly
literal mind, perhaps the result of engineering training. I've
seen this trait in other engineers, who develop tunnel vision
and ignore the bigger picture. If it ain't in the specs (or they
simply think it isn't) it either doesn't exist or it doesn't
belong there.

E.g., when the engineers designed the BART transportation system
in the Bay Area, the specs never mentioned that the sensors
giving the central computer the position of the trains were
supposed to work in wet weather. So the engineers didn't design
it that way, even though (duhhh!) the Bay Area gets pretty darn
wet in the winter time.  First time it rained the sensors failed
and the trains "disappeared" from the system.

>Now lets see if I have this right. Your taking the design
>information from a drawing of an ML307C/AP traget which has been
>cleverly altered by the AF and appling it against a model built
>in 1944 and saying that these two targets are the same with
>respect to the white stripes. So here we have a target the
>ML307B/AP that was modified in 1951 and than renamed the
>ML307C/AP, if one can believe that even this information is
>correct because it comes from the legend information on the
>drawing which is where Professor Moore got his information. You
>want me and the list to believe that these white strips that you
>see on the drawing existed on the ML307B/AP target, seven years
>prior. That's a leap of faith.

The original design and schematic details are still there, but
with modifications in later models noted in detailing or the
legends. Nowhere does it indicate any modifications to the
construction of the edges, such as adding strips later that
weren't there originally.

>Allow me to add another fact here. In the Army Technical manual
>TM 11-487G which was printed in April of 1951 and is labelled as
>"The Directory of Signal Corps Equipments (Meteorological
>Equipment)", there is no mention what so ever of an ML307C/AP.
>The manual superceded TM 11-487, 2 October 1944 as it pretained
>to meteorological equipment. The ML307C/AP target designation
>came out Jan 8, 1951, lots of time to make into the updated
>training manual.

One very possible mundane explanation is the right hand not
knowing what the left hand was doing, or two departments not
communicating with one another. If you want an example, how
about the Mars polar explorer crashing because one group used
metric and another English units and they didn't talk to one
another?

Or closer to home for me, the same BART engineers committed the
following idiocy. Train car manufacture was contracted out to
two different companies who came up with two incompatible
electrical systems and electrical couplings. So after spending
billions of dollars on the system, it didn't work in the rain
and the cars couldn't be mixed on the same train. They had
years, not months, to coordinate and pick up on simple design
mistakes, but they never did.

I find it very hard to get worked up with a manual not
mentioning a design modifications and new model designation from
only 3 months earlier. You also don't seem to be taking into
account likely time lags. The new model wouldn't have gone into
production instantaneously, and the section of the manual
dealing with the radar targets could have been written months
before publication, maybe too late to get any last-minute
modifications into the new manual.

>When this is coupled with the fact that the
>museum never had a copy of the ML307C/AP drawing, plus the fact
>that the historical information of the target's development is
>incorrect than it would appear that the ML307C/AP drawing never
>existed except for the purposes of the AF Roswell report to
>debunk the Roswell incident. The drawing is a red herring.

I still fail to see why it was a "red herring." What exactly was
the "deception" in it? How is any of this relevant to the Fort
Worth photos. All I see you arguing is complete nonsense with no
point to it whatsoever.

>David, there is only one official target assembly drawing and as
>I have stated earlier, there are no white stripes shown.

I'm not going to take your word for it, because you have a
tendency to not know what you are talking about, such as your
nonsensical argument about the bottom edge of the main triangle
in the FW photos being too long. This is _not_ the corresponding
triangle edge to he one attached to the stick in the photo. The
corresponding edge is where the white strip is, but sans stick.

>The AF
>report information is there for a reason and that is to
convince
>people that the information on that target coincides with the
>FTW Photos so that it supports the theory that the debris
>photographed was a rawin target and the AF have done a very good
>job of it. You are convinced!

I am convinced because it _is_ a radar target. There was nothing
for AF to deceive us about on this point. It can be a very real
radar target and still have nothing at all to do with what Mack
Brazel found at his ranch. All they had to was substitute one
debris for the another back in 1947. What's so hard about that?
No great, improbable, modern-day conspiracy theories are even
vaguely needed here to account for what happened, such as the
Air Force cleverly altering photos or radar target schematics as
"red herrings" to lead us astray as to what was "really" in
Ramey's office.

>>Fifth, the ML307 has a pronounced effect in decreasing the
>>>ascent rate of the balloon train depending on where the targets
>>>were located on the balloon train. I didn't see this taken into
>>>account in Moore's calculations. Did your calculations account
>>>for this?

>>Sorry, what's this got to do with what's in Ramey's office?

>>Among my personal calculations was seeing what happened if the
>>balloon rose and fell exactly as fast as Flight #5 the next day.
>>If the balloon had risen significantly slower because of
>>attached Rawins, all that would have happened is that it would
>>have ended up even further away from the Foster Ranch crash
>>site.

>This question was a slight digression but germain to the issue
>indirectly. It was a fact that was stated in the manual and than
>I wondered if this variable was taken into account.

>My
>understanding was that several targets were involved in the
>Mogul train. That being the case it would play an important role
>in how the acsent rate of the mogul train. It's to important a
>variable to omit in the calculations. I wonder what professor
>Moore's response would be to this. I'm sure he would have an
>answer.

At best, it would have a very, very minor effect, since the
balloons rose so slowly (typically ~10 ft/sec or ~7 mph), there
were so many meteorological balloons with unknown inflation, and
the radar targets would have formed only a tiny percentage of
any payload. It also has zero to do with the FW photos.

As for Moore taking it into account, he invented so many numbers
and butchered the math in so many ways, plus there being so many
unknown variables (such as exact payload and number of balloons)
that it really doesn't matter.

As for Moore answering anything, forget it. He isn't talking to
anyone anymore except fellow debunkers since he got caught red-
 handed hoaxing his Mogul trajectory calculation. If he can't
explain rise rate numbers like 100/12 = 350 or 852/2.8 = 100,
what difference does it make if he didn't take some very minor
radar target drag into account? It would be buried in all the
other noise.

Hopefully this will be my last post on this nonsense, which is
taking up way too much of my time. The arguments that Andrew
LeVoie and Neil Morris have made concerning radar targets and
other matters and not only dead wrong but embarrassing. I'm
sorry this dirty laundry had to be aired in public, but I felt I
had to respond to the misinformation.


David Rudiak







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   Oct > Oct 15

              Re: Something Brewing In Camarillo, California -

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:52:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:34:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Something Brewing In Camarillo, California -


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:09:27 -0700
>Subject: Something Brewing In Camarillo, California

>Hi List

>I have something that I may need help on, a case which is taking
>place in Camarillo, California. Since I have been having no luck
>what so ever in getting hold of a MUFON member in California, I
>was wondering if anyone on the list might be able to direct me
>to a UFO investigator for this area.

You can contact MUFON directly and perhaps they can point you to
an investigator in your area

MUTUAL UFO NETWORK, INC.
P.O. Box 369
Morrison, CO 80465-0369 U.S.A.
(303) 932-7709
HQ@mufon.com

or you might try these California Reps for MUFON

Ruben Uriarte
State Director - Northern California

2563 Copa Del Oro Dr
Union City, CA 94587-3185

H:(510) 489-3686 W:(510) 471-5559
email: ruben_uriarte@hotmail.com

--------------------------
Georgeanne Cifarelli
State Director - Southern California

2355 Brentford Rd
San Marino, CA 91108

H:(626) 576-0303
email: grelli@earthlink.net

--------------------------
Lester Velez
Assistant State Director

6477 Oakcrest Dr
San Jose, CA 95120

H:(408) 268-9666 W: [deleted by request 02-07-04 --ebk]
email: lvelez@lecsf.com

Terry







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   Oct > Oct 15

                     Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:55:11 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:37:21 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:26:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:34:33 +0200
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>><snip>

>>>I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
>>>about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
>>>becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
>>>is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.

>>Where are you trying to drive us? To discover that is was flying
>>saucer?

>>Excellent to add confusion and ridicule to the Roswell case.

>Please reference my response to David for details. There is no
>confusion, simply facts that show the drawing David is
>referencing is a red herring and cannot be trusted. David even
>admits this himself. He now says that the ML307C/AP orignal
>drawing was cleverly altered by the AF. In my resonse to David I
>have shown that there are no white stripes on the rawin target,
>therefore the panels in the photos are not part of a rawin
>target.

>Is the debris from a downed UFO? I can't say 100%. I can say one
>thing, there is alot of material in the photos that doesn't
>belong to a rawin target. That much I can see.

Andrew,

Your white stripe argument strikes me as just another twist in a
long story of claims that the Fort Worth pictures showed the
real Roswell debris. There are two kinds of people claiming
that.

Of course, the Mogul proponents argue that they show real debris
of what was found on the Foster ranch, which came from a Mogul 4
balloon train. Let's not discuss that here.

But there are those who claim that they show real debris of a
ufo. That claim goes back, at least, to the interview of General
DuBose by Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera, in the Mufon UFO
Journal of January 1991. According to them, DuBose said that the
debris had not been switched, so it had to be the real thing.

However, DuBose said to Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt that he
had never seen the real debris. And he confirmed in his
affidavit that the balloon story was a cover-up.

This should be clear enough, but no, the claim of real ufo
debris reappeared in 1998, whith the declarations of James Bond
Johnson. Randle showed that he had changed his story, but I know
you are going to deny that and I don't insist. Instead, I want
to stress that Bond Johnson made a false statement regarding
Jesse Marcel Jr. In a first message of June 1st, 1998, on UFO
UpDates, "Examination of Roswell photos clears Air Force", he
claimed that the new photo analysis of RPIT revealed "writings"
and anomalous materials. Then, in a message of June 15, he
declared that he had passed the new enlargements to Dr Jesse
Marcel Jr, and that Jesse had identified the "hieroglyphics" he
had seen on the "I beam" in 1947. See the message passed by
Agermose: "Jesse Jr., again, sees symbols from Roswell crash".

However, this claim was was denied the next day by Michael
Lindemann, who said he was in regular contact with Jesse Jr and
that he denied that. See the message on UFO UpDates "Jesse Jr
dissociates himself from Johnson" (16 June 1998) Lindemann
concluded: "Johnson must retract his story" To my knowledge,
Johnson never did.

What was the truth? I was able to verify that personally,
because I had met Jesse in December 1997, at the congress in
Brazilia. He answered very clearly to me that he had not seen
hieroglyphics and had not said that, in a message of July 12:

As far as I am concerned the photographs do - not - contain
anything other than what appears to be the debris of a balloon
and radar reflector. I certainly do not see anyhting exotic in
the photos, and certainly do not see any symbols. I again want
to emphasize that nothing in these pictures (at least what I can
see) depicts what I had seen in Roswell".

After that, the story of real ufo debris kept running. Recently,
you have claimed again that strange symbols could be seen, on
the pictures, as well as various strange materials, and now you
present a new argument with white stripes. What are you going to
find next?

All this looks like an excellent way throwing confusion on the
Roswell case, just like the Mogul 4 which was cancelled !


Gildas Bourdais








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                     Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:21:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:40:12 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Bourdais


>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:45:15 +0100
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 6:39:38 -0400
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>>>To: <UFOupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:13:23 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>>>How can you maintain that nobody could indentify the Rawin
>>>target, when Irving Newton did so at once, in the office of
>>>General Ramey? The earlier statement of Major Kirton is of no
>>>help at all here since it was a sort of first draft of the
>>>balloon story.

>Gildas, Jan, Dave Morton and List,

>_I'm_ not maintaining this, Gen Ramey _states_ this in the
>release to Reuters, Kirton presents the release as a _literal_
>quote ie he's saying this is what Ramey has said, not his
>(Kirton's) interpretation of what Ramey said.


Neil,

Please take good note of this, once and for all :
Newton identified at once debris of a balloon and radar target.
DuBose stated that the balloon was a cover up.

>>>Another question: how can you think one minute that General
>>>Ramey would have shown to the press real debris of a UFO,
>>>whether you admit the Mogul story or the balloon cover up of a
>>>UFO? Cannot you see how your absurd is your belief, in both
>>>cases?

>It's as absurd as Blanchard issuing a press release saying RAAF
>had recovered a "flying disc" in the first place? That's if
>you're trying to push the "security" angle, i.e. "it would all
>be Top Secret stuff" etc.

No. It's an entirely different story.

It is absurd to imagine that Ramey would present debris of a UFO
and claim it is a balloon.

On the other hand, the press release is not absurd.
It may have told a part of the truth, but why?

There are several possible explanations for it.

My opinion is that it was decided in a moment of stress after
the discovery of the debris field. They may have feared not to
be able to conceal it, as they may have done successfully a few
days before with the discovery of the craft and bodies.

In such a scenario, the press release would have served no to
loose face, while trying to keep the "big" secret".

But, when the debris field was controlled, it became possible to
deny the press release with the balloon story.

I am not sure that it is the true story, but it is not absurd.
And, most probably, Blanchard did not decide it alone, as Haut
explained to me when I met him. There was very tight discipline
on that base, as he repeated to me.


Gildas Bourdais







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:33:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:43:47 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:04:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:12:35 EDT
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton

<snip>

>>Toy Tape on RAWINS:

>>I have a curiosity question, here, for David, regarding the so-
>>called purple toy tape reported by Prof Moore. Sorry for asking
>>this question if the answer is on your website or was mentioned
>>in a previous post, but has the "purple toy tape with the flower
>>symbols", supposedly seen by Moore and his team in 1947, ever
>>shown up in any photographs or movies of RAWIN targets (color or
>>black and white)?

>Nobody has ever found the "purple toy tape with flower symbols"
>in the Ramey photos or any other RAWIN target photo, including
>the Air Force's mysterious, unnameable photoanalysis lab during
>their 1994 Roswell "investigation."

>Who knows?  Maybe it really did exist, but no surviving photos
>show it: bad angles, bad lighting, target too small, whatever.

Dave and David, And significantly the the symbols Moore recalled
the tape had and had drawn up, look nothing like the symbols
witnesses recall seeing on the debris.

http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/compx.gif

>One interesting thing that Neil Morris did spy in the Ramey
>photos, that had been previously overlooked, was twine tied onto
>the neck of the balloon on the floor.  Although Neil
>unfortunately inflated it into a mysterious anomalous "cable," a
>string tied to the balloon neck is exactly what one would expect
>to find.

David, I think there is a fatal flaw in your assumption that the
"cables" I see associated with a piece of beam debris are in
fact the twine associated with the "envelope" material. The flaw
being that when the debris is moved between photographs my
"cables" stay associated with their beam debris while the
envelope material is completely moved and re-arranged and any
"twine" associated with this material would therefore move too.
Like I've said the "cables" remain in place relative to the beam
material.

This is observed in the two images Marcel Right and Newton, by
using the chairs and knot marking in Ramey's floor you can see
that the debris on the paper has been moved some 6" to the right
and also forward by maybe the same amount. Now the debris on the
paper you would not expect to move relative to each other, you
would after all just drag the paper en-mass. _But_ the
"envelope" fabric _is_ _not_ on the paper, but it too is moved
and it is apparently loose fabric of some sort or rubber
depending on your point of view, and it's flexable and floppy.
_If_ it did have twine attached to it as you maintain, what are
the odds of getting the location of said twine in just the same
position relative to the other debris after just lifting and
moving this flexable material even this 6"-9" inches??. What's
more in between these two reference pictures there is evidence
that a feature seen on the envelope material far to the left of
the "cables" feature in the Marcel Right image appears to it's
right in the Newton image, indicating the envelope material,
whatever it is, has been radically move round between these two
pictures _yet_ the "cables" feature appears to be still in an
identical position relative to the associated beam material
after all this movement. Hence my belief that the "cable"
material is probably not associated with "balloon" twine, the
balloon gets moved round yet it's alleged attached "twine" stays
where it is.

>However, Mack Brazel claimed not to find any string to support
>the "foil and sticks" object he found, yet there it is, plain as
>day in the photos (once you know where to look for it).  It
>would have been rather hard for him to miss.  This is yet
>another indication that what was in Ramey's office had nothing
>at all to do with what Brazel really found and Brazel's story
>was just a put-up job.

>Ramey's early "hexagon" description, however, is the real
>smoking gun of a prearranged RAWIN cover story.  Only an intact
>RAWIN might ever resemble a hexagon.  The torn-up radar target
>in his office would never generate such a description.

I don't think there's anything strange in this, the debris was
foil like, radar targets used foil, the std radar target at the
time was the ML307, assembled I guess you could say it looked
hexagonal or at least 6 pointed. And if, as the ST photo's
indicate FWAAF was launching and tracking these by radar, it
would be an obvious initial assumption to jump to that the
debris might be the remains of one of these targets.

Yet they still came out with the two statements that a) after
checking with Wright Field it "HAD NOT BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF"
and b) "none of the men at this base can identify it as an army
type balloon".  (The FBI teletype and the Reuters report)


Neil







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   Oct > Oct 15

               Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:14:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:47:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:22:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:29:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:40:27 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:46:03 -0300
>>>>>Subject: Crackpots Hampering UFO Study Author Says

>>>>>Source: The Toronto Star, Canada

>>>>>Jennifer Robinson
>>>>>Canadian Press

>>>><snip>

>>>>>Pop culture and crackpots have hijacked the scientific study of
>>>>>UFOs, turning it into a running joke, says UFO researcher Chris
>>>>>Styles.

><snip>

>>The rest of your charming, but rather predictable literary
>>smirk, is a portrait in irony given that our Mr. Tonnies has a
>>productively efficacious edge that you would snap up in a second
>>iff'n you could (as would I), and so should, perhaps, refrain
>>from casual desultory condescension, inappropriate aloofness,
>>and unjustified superciliousness in his regard. There is more
>>to gain with regard to what he's on about than there is to sneer
>>at, verily. Moreover, it's not helpful, it is an uncalled for
>>and uninformed admonition (incurring a non productive reaction),
>>and it is not a -little- insulting. Mr. Tonnies has not stepped
>>out of line at all...

>Uh Alfred?

>Maybe you should read the original posts again, and more
>carefully.

>My cloistered provincial smirking was directed at Jennifer
>Robinson of the Canadian Press, since it was her contention that
>the ISS regularly trip up casual observers.

>I did not aim that at Mac Tonnies, nor would a careful reader
>think so. As I see it, Mac took the same view I did, that this
>was careless journalism.

>I suppose the ISS could trip up the naive on occasion.

A more careful reading positively indicates only some of what
you've said, to your credit, sir. Sincerely, I'd just assumed
you dropped a significant number of IQ points while I was away.
On the other hand, my original presumption might otherwise stem
from (and remain borne-out by) the (still very predictable and
unclever) insult you managed to tack on at the end of your post
to me, and this is forgetting that, initially (admittedly in
error), I was not the _least_ surprised that you would sneer at
Mac... not surprised at all. But point taken (even if
invalidated by a lack of manners...)... I'm going to read _you_,
in particular, more carefully in the future, though that may not
be exactly as you'd have it. We'll see.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to Lehmberg@snowhill.com)
Splash page:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
Radio Show & Splash Page: http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Radio Show Archives: Out of Service at this time...







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   Oct > Oct 15

               Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:45:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:06:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hamilton


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:53:40 -0700
>Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>I meant for this to out to the List, so I am resending it.

>-------- Original Message --------

>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: landahl1@comcast.net
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:56:08 -0700
>Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

>>Are you certain it was merely 'cold' itself that slowed light?
>>I have not heard of that. Cold in a vacuum would not slow light,
>>would it?

>>However, Bose-Einstein Condensates have successfully slowed
>>light to approximately 120 feet per hour. Bose-Einstein
>>Condensates are created by supercooling a gas to approximately
>>50 billionths of a degree above absolute zero. This extreme
>>cooling triggers a quantum effect - the overlapping of
>>individual atoms due to extremely high uncertainty of their
>>individual positions. This creates a superdense superatom out
>>of the trillions of individual atoms. Perhaps this was the
>>source of the statement that cold can slow light?

>I still haven't seen the original article, but vaguely remember
>reading something along those lines.

>Did you mean "Bose Einstein Concentrate" as opposed to
>"condensate?" Either way, BEC is certainly not a vacuum. As such
>it could definitely retard (but not increase) the speed of
>light.

Larry, it is "condensate".

A Bose-Einstein condensates form from matter that has been
cooled to near absolute zero. It allows a significant fraction
of the particles to occupy a signle quantum state.

Physicists say that the BEC acts like one super atom and allows
the speed of light to slow down from 186,282 mps to a pokey 38
miles per hour.

Vacuums hundreds of trillions of times lower than the pressure
of air at Earth's surface, and temperatures almost a billion
times colder that that in interstellar space, are needed to
produce the condensate. Temperatures must be lowered to within a
few billionths of a degree of absolute zero (minus 459.7 degrees
F), where atoms have the least possible energy and all but cease
to move around.

I believe that the big difference between BEC and interstellar
space is that the BEC is a condensate of particles that have
been slowed down, but interstellar space is a true vacuum with a
very low particle density. While the mass density is very low
the energy density of the vacuum is uncertain and some believe
it is enormous. Also, the effects of dark matter on photon
transmission is unknown.

New theories have the speed of light slowing down over time and
space expansion accelerating.







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   Oct > Oct 15

                         UFO Expert Comes To Brevard

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:15:16 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:01:48 -0400
Subject: UFO Expert Comes To Brevard


Source: Florida Today
http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/peoplestoryA3622651066154284A.htm

By Billy Cox
Florida Today  - Oct 14, 1:58 PM

George W. Bush raised a few eyebrows during the 2000
presidential campaign when he responded to a question about
releasing government files on unidentified flying objects.
"It'll be the first thing he (Dick Cheney) will do," Bush said.
"He'll get right on it."

Immediately upon assuming office, however, the Bush
administration exhibited an impulse for even tighter controls on
government information, long before the 9/11 security clampdown.
From Bush's immediate suspension of the 1978 Presidential
Records Act to Cheney's refusal to comply with a General
Accounting Office request for the names of the Vice President's
Energy Task Force members, patterns of concealment are
consistent. Just last month, Bush signed Executive Order 12958,
which gave the director of the Office of Science and Technology
Policy the unprecedented authority to declare information "Top
Secret."

"They didn't explain a rationale for it," says Steven Aftergood,
director of the Federation of American Scientists' government
secrecy project in Washington, D.C. "The only way to know for
sure how significant it is, is to come back a year from now and
see how many times it's been exercised."

UFO declassification proponents thought they were building
momentum for congressional hearings with a forum of witnesses in
May 2001 announcing their willingness to testify. Then, the roof
fell in. "The Saudi Arabian flying circus came to town, and the
U.S. declared an open-ended war against this term, this noun,
called terror," recalls lobbyist Stephen Bassett. "All the
attention and all the headlines got sucked up by 9/11, and all
the political work went into suspended animation."

But UFO reports never stopped. Nor did calls for government
accountability. Friday, one of the leading advocates -- Stanton
Friedman -- will discuss what he calls the "Cosmic Watergate" at
Brevard Community College's Titusville campus.

Author of "Crash at Corona" and "Top Secret/Majic," Friedman was
among the first to revisit the 1947 Roswell Incident, in which
military authorities initially announced the recovery of a
flying saucer, only to reverse themselves amid the ensuing media
clamor. But from his home in New Brunswick, Canada, the
American-born researcher blames contemporary media passivity for
enabling a cover-up.

"The only way we'll make any progress with this issue is when
the press gets off its duff and takes a serious look at all the
documents that have been in the public domain for years," says
Friedman. His background in nuclear physics landed him 14 years'
worth of work on nuclear rockets, much of it classified. "I'd
like to see them spend just 10 percent of the energy they
invested in covering Gary Condit, Elian Gonzales and Monica
Lewinsky."

Friedman contends government documents already in the public
domain are loaded with smoking guns, not the least of which is
the famous Bolender Memo. In 1969, just as the Air Force was
terminating its public investigation of UFOs called Project Blue
Book based on their negligible impact on national security,
Brig. Gen. C.H. Bolender, deputy director of development for the
USAF chief of staff, illuminated a backdoor policy: "Reports of
unidentified flying objects which could affect national
security. . . . are not part of the Blue Book system."

"The media needs a commitment to the truth and to ignore the
crap," says Friedman. "There was a conference in Chicago in
1997, on the 50th anniversary of Roswell, and one guy shows up
wearing alien antennae on his head. CBS was covering the event
and -- wouldn't you know it? -- the guy with the headgear is the
one who makes the news that night. This is typical."

Next April, during the presidential primary campaigns, Friedman
and a host of investigators will join Bassett, founder of X-
PPAC, the Extraterrestrial Phenomenon Political Action
Committee, in Washington for yet another effort to forge UFOs
into political dialogue. Bassett was on hand in 2001 when an
initiative called the Disclosure Project pressed for immunity
for whistleblowers whose testimony would violate their security
oaths.

Among the most impressive insiders assembled by the Disclosure
Project was a retired USAF captain who -- supported by Strategic
Air Command documents -- was in a Wyoming ICBM silo in 1967 when
a UFO drained the power from launch complexes housing 10
nuclear-tipped warheads. Another was a Federal Aviation
Administration accidents division chief who, despite being told
by a CIA agent to keep a lid on it, presented a box full of
records concerning a harrowing, 30-minute encounter involving a
UFO and a Japanese airliner off Alaska in 1986.

Although the Bush presidency apparently has no intention of
addressing UFOs, its attitude is part of a bipartisan continuum
by chief executives to avoid the issue. Jimmy Carter, for
instance, filed a report of his own UFO sighting with the
National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena and
promised an open investigation during his 1976 campaign. But as
president, Carter never followed through. Bill Clinton,
according to the memoirs of former deputy Attorney General
Webster Hubbell, directed him to get to the bottom of UFOs.
Hubbell failed.

Repeated efforts by Florida Today to interview both Democrats
about UFOs have been unsuccessful.

Last year, former Clinton chief of staff John Podesta announced
his partnership with the Coalition for Freedom of Information --
 funded by the Sci Fi Channel, a client of his PodestaMattoon
law firm -- to try to end UFO gridlock. For CFI research advisor
Ted Roe, the issue is compelling, but so delicate he refers to
the mystery in broader terms: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, or
UAEs.

Roe is the executive director of the National Aviation Reporting
Center on Anomalous Phenomena (NARCAP) in Vallejo, Calif. In
order to improve flight safety, NARCAP, a private outfit,
collects data on everything from ball lightning to plasma
disturbances, as reported by pilots, radar operators and air
traffic controllers. But getting these sources to cooperate is
dicey, due to the exotic nature of many UAEs.

"The really strange ones involve cylinders, discs, spheres, red
lights and white lights, V-shaped or boomerang-shaped objects.
Some of them are huge," says Roe, whose colleague, Dr. Richard
Haines, authored a controversial report in 2000 analyzing more
than 100 incidents, entitled "Aviation Safety in America."

"Some of them seem to demonstrate an alteration of magnetic
fields, which can cause compasses to turn up to 20 degrees off
direction. They can have transient or permanent effects on
avionics systems, such as shutting off transmitters."

In early September 2001, NARCAP sent survey questionnaires on
UAEs to 300 pilots of a major airline carrier. "We couldn't have
picked a worse week," says Roe. "Two days later, the (World
Trade Center) towers fell." Still, NARCAP got a 24 percent
response, with one of every six subjects reporting having seen
something so bizarre they couldn't identify it. "But not a one
of them reported it to management," Roe adds.

Roe says retirees are more likely to talk than active pilots,
which isn't a surprise. "The airline facilitator who was trying
to promote our survey wound up getting two psychiatric
evaluations," he says. "There are 500,000 people in our target
culture, the aviation community, who are very interested in this
subject. But these experiences become toxic when they manifest
into (pilots') environment."

Only constant media pressure, says Friedman, will force
authorities to respond to public curiosity. After all, 72
percent of Americans responding to a Roper Poll conducted last
year believes the government isn't telling everything it knows
about UFOs.

"I read that with Watergate, the Washington Post had something
like 16 people working that story at one time," says Friedman,
who'll also be signing copies of his work at Barnes & Noble
Booksellers on Merritt Island on 7 p.m. Thursday. "It's going to
require that sort of effort. You can have all the seminars and
lectures in the world, but if the press doesn't come and follow
it up, then you haven't had much of an impact."

--







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   Oct > Oct 15

                     Woman Says She Captured UFO On Tape

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:26:24 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:12:52 -0400
Subject: Woman Says She Captured UFO On Tape


Source: NewsNet5
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2553384/detail.html ((See video))

Mother, Daughter Claim Light Hovered Over Woods
UPDATED: 7:39 a.m. EDT October 15, 2003

HUNTSBURG, Ohio -- Gaze into the dark sky and you might be
surprised at what is there.

The phrase UFO conjures up all kinds of thoughts. For some in
Geauga County, it might have been more than a thought when they
saw something glowing. NewsChannel5's Leon Bibb went in search
of unidentified flying objects.

It was in Huntsburg in Geauga County late one August evening
when nature's dark ceiling was the backdrop of strange movements
in the sky, Bibb reported. "A light hovering above our woods,"
said Michele Braun. Braun and her daughter, Stephanie, recounted
the story on Aug. 29. Neighbor kids had a backyard bonfire
going. But in the distance away from the rising smoke came
unusual movement. Those who saw it could neither judge its
distance away nor its size, saying they only know what they saw.
"It would start off like a little ball, like a little white
light coming toward us and then it come like a half-circle, a
rod," Braun said.

From the backyard gathering, a boy grabbed his video camera. So
Bibb offered the tale of his tape. It was an eerie sight
unfolding, like a fiery ball which changes its shape, Bibb said.
Rven the family dog became unnerved. "Just like going in circles
and then she jumped on my mom; on her shoulder and then on her
head. Like it was weird," Stephanie Braun said. Just off
Chardon-Windsor Road in Huntsburg there have been other accounts
of mysterious events, Bibb said. Sometimes people say the
compass behaves wildly with their needles not always pointing
north. Are the events unexplainable? Bibb said, "Perhaps."






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   Oct > Oct 16

                 Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Baiata

From: Maurizio Baiata <mbalien@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:12:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:12:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Baiata


>From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:44:06 +0000
>Subject: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine

>A rumour seems to have started that I am to be the new editor of
>UFO Magazine in the UK. I would like to inform you that this is
>not the case.

>Myself and one ot two others have been assisting UFO Magazine
>after the untimely death of its founder and editor Graham
>Birdsall. Between us we have ensured the short term survival of
>UFO Magazine but its ultimate fate lies in the hands of Graham's
>wife Christine, who quite naturally is still grieving for him.

>I don't know where these rumours have started but I'd like to
>put an end to this speculation once and for all.

Dear Philip, All,

No surprise for me. Shameless people, exploiting Graham's name
and memory, will be abundant. I was expecting it. Not so soon,
though. My support goes to Graham's family and to the
researchers who are giving their assistance to the prestigious
UFO Magazine of UK. Regards

Maurizio Baiata

Stargate Group Of Italy








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   Oct > Oct 16

                CCCRN News: Update - Abbotsford, BC Formation

From: Paul Anderson <psa@cccrn.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:22:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:31:40 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Update - Abbotsford, BC Formation



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

October 15, 2003

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


UPDATE - ABBOTSFORD, BRITISH COLUMBIA FORMATION

An initial field report, photos and diagrams have been added to
the web site for the Abbotsford, British Columbia formation, the
large 300' "trident" in 10' tall cattle corn. This is a
preliminary update only; a special complete combined CCCRN / BLT
Research Team report detailing some unique and significant
physical anomalies (some not seen before in corn formations or
even rarely in formations in general) will be published soon for
this formation as well as the other corn formation this year
with similar anomalies at nearby Agassiz, pending further
studies.

Also...

Some more news reports have been added to the media page,
covering formations in Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews@cccrn.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

Copyright CCCRN, 2003







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   Oct > Oct 17

                  Re: Tom Mahood's Corso Critique - Baiata

From: Maurizio Baiata <mbalien@tin.it>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:07:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:47:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Tom Mahood's Corso Critique - Baiata


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:01:26 -0700
>Subject: Tom Mahood's Corso Critique

>Philip Corso's "The Day After Roswell"

>Reviewed by Tom Mahood <tmahood@ibm.net>

<snip>

I find very disgraceful that one comes out with his opinions
about Col. Corso's book five years after his death. Have you
ever met Col. Corso? Any chance to discuss some of your remarks
with him? I'm sure he would be available if requested so, as he
always (and with everybody) has been here in Italy, where I've
the honour to be on his side for quite a time, between the years
97 and 98. I'm also finding very surprising that no reaction
whatsoever came from people in the USA who personally knew
Corso, when the same vicious attacks surfaced in the past.
Moreover: have you ever checked Col. Corso military career's
records? I guess not at all. Nevertheless, they were made public
by Ian Aldrich at least four years ago.

Last but not least: the "real" and essential diary of Col.
Corso, entitled "Dawn of a New Age", was published recently in
Italy. The book - not available in the United States - is far
distant from The Day After Roswell, in contents, style and
conclusions. Still, it is written by a man who spent his entire
life in serving the American Military Intelligence Community.

Also, are you sure that Col. Corso was not "stopped" after the
controversial release of his first (and for now only) book?

Pardon my English, but I've a very "brooklynese" genoma. Thanks
for your attention

Maurizio Baiata
Stargate Group Of Italy







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   Oct > Oct 17

                Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:13:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:47:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light? - Hatch


>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:45:29 -0800
>Subject: Re: Cold's Effect On Speed Of Light?

<snip>

>>Did you mean "Bose Einstein Concentrate" as opposed to
>>"condensate?" Either way, BEC is certainly not a vacuum. As
>>such it could definitely retard (but not increase) the speed
>>of light.

>Larry, it is "condensate".

>A Bose-Einstein condensates form from matter that has been
>cooled to near absolute zero. It allows a significant fraction
>of the particles to occupy a signle quantum state.

>Physicists say that the BEC acts like one super atom and allows
>the speed of light to slow down from 186,282 mps to a pokey 38
>miles per hour.

>Vacuums hundreds of trillions of times lower than the pressure
>of air at Earth's surface, and temperatures almost a billion
>times colder that that in interstellar space, are needed to
>produce the condensate. Temperatures must be lowered to within a
>few billionths of a degree of absolute zero (minus 459.7 degrees
>F), where atoms have the least possible energy and all but cease
>to move around.

>I believe that the big difference between BEC and interstellar
>space is that the BEC is a condensate of particles that have
>been slowed down, but interstellar space is a true vacuum with a
>very low particle density. While the mass density is very low
>the energy density of the vacuum is uncertain and some believe
>it is enormous. Also, the effects of dark matter on photon
>transmission is unknown.

>New theories have the speed of light slowing down over time and
>space expansion accelerating.

Hello Bill:

I've read of BEC both ways:

These four sites refer to Bose-Einstein _Concentrate_:

http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2001/101701/Atom_laser_fits_on_a_chip_101701.html

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/9701/msg00441.html

http://raelian.com/en/

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/archives/000854.html

- - -

... and probably in error (note the Raeleans)

While Google refers to no less than 21,600 sites/pages as Bose-
Einstein _Condensate_, and no Raeleans in sight.

I stand corrected!

Bose Einstein Concentrate sounds like something from the
supermarket laundry section anyway.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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   Oct > Oct 17

                     Quantum Entanglement & Simultaneity

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:04:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:27:56 -0400
Subject: Quantum Entanglement & Simultaneity


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/2, Summer 2000, p. 18

Quantum Entanglement and Simultaneity
by Philip Creighton

I think it was J.B.S. Haldane who once observed: "The only thing
we can be certain about the future is that there is going to be
more and more of it." What sets me in mind of his profound
remark is the awareness, for me personally, that I am living in
a most extraordinary epoch of human history, fraught with
discovery, technological creativity, but also with disturbance
and change.

With it comes the prospect of yet another wave of true
Renaissance, enlightenment, and the burgeoning of a godlike, yet
human, powerfulness which can either transport us into a true
Golden Age of human spiritual as well as secular growth, or
plunge us into the worst nightmare of depravity and destruction
if our social and moral conscience and self-knowledge is not
able to match the pace and accomplishments of science and
technology.

Forgive me for the dramatic preamble, but it is appropriate, for
Act I of the 21(st) century is already unfolding before our very
eyes, and a very remarkable play it promises to be_

For most of the last century it has been believed that the speed
of light, and other electromagnetic radiations, is absolute and
insurpassable.

Accompanying this belief, amounting almost to a dogma, has come
the growth of quantum physics, which reveals the natural world
to possess some very quirky properties indeed. Particles and
waves become interchangeable, and the concept of locality
becomes not absolute but probabilistic.

Just "where" is an electron, or any other particle? A very good
question. It appears to be everywhere, according to a
distributed probability function - that is, until you "look" at
it_

Another of the extraordinary properties of particles, as viewed
from the point of view of quantum physics, is that their state
appears to be a genuine superimposition, of alternative,
definite, states, a sort of indeterminate hybrid, - until an
observation of them is made; and observation is not passive; it
involves interaction.

Let us now come to the nub of the present discussion: The
consequences of the foregoing when applied to two or more
particles interacting or being created together in a single
process, as a result of which they have correlated properties
which are nevertheless indeterminate until an observation is
made. Such experiments are generally referred to as EPR
experiments, thanks to those who originally conceived them,
namely Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen.

Let us take a definite example: Two photons are generated
simultaneously and move away from each other in opposite
directions. Because they were created together their properties
are the same or different; in this case they have complementary
or opposite polarisations. (This is the angle at which an
electromagnetic wave vibrates.)

Two particles related in this way are said to be entangled;
however, despite this relationship they are also in a indefinite
or fuzzy state of superimposition until they are measured or
observed.

When one is observed and found to have a given polarisation, say
0 degrees, observation of the other reveals that it has the
complementary polarisation of 90 degrees. It appears that the
information of the state of one photon is transmitted
instantaneously across space to determine the fate of the other.
 But the actual value of the state is in fact completely random,
and so it is not possible to use it to send any information, and
so this is not usable as a method of faster-than-light
communication.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that the two photons, even though
they may be widely separated, behave as a unified system,
connected in a way which has been described as "spooky". Their
state of entanglement means that they partake of the same wave
function, or probability function, and interacting with, or
observing, one particle amounts to observing both - and they do
indeed mirror each other's properties.

Recently two groups of researchers have undertaken long-distance
experiments in which such entangled photon pairs are sent up to
10 km down separate fibre-optic cables and detected separately.
 The two sets of results are then compared, and indeed found to
be complementary. However, the researchers have to communicate
with each other in some independent way to verify this, for the
results are in themselves random, and so faster-than-light
communication does not seem feasible by this method.

One group, Nicolas Gisin and colleagues, is based at the
University of Geneva in Switzerland. Description of their
experiments can be found at:

http://www.euroquantum.org/

Another group, led by Peter Zoller at the University of
Innsbruck, has performed similar experiments, described at:

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm

and

http://www.quantum.unvie.ac.at/

It is strangely ironic that, within weeks of these experiments,
yet other scientists have managed to slow light down to a speed
of about 38 miles per hour. This is done with the help of a
remarkable assemblage called an Einstein-Bose condensate. What
it is is a group of atoms, typically an alkali metal, cooled to
almost absolute zero so that all thermal motion ceases. The
group of atoms behaves as if it has coalesced and is described
by a single wave-function. For light it acts like a kind of
molasses, slowing it down from 186,000 miles per second to 38
miles per hour! See:

http://www.research.spinweb.com/news/articles/  for more.

WEB SITES ON QUANTUM THEORY

Theoretical Physics News:

http://www.research.spinweb.com/news/articles/quant7.htm

Holism in Physics:

http://www.setis.library.usyd.edu.au/stanford/entries/physics-holism/#Bib

Entanglement Could Have Huge Real-World Impacts:

http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000136.html

Los Alamos National Laboratory, reports on quantum experiments

http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/

National Institute of Standards and Technology, reports on
quantum experiments:

http://www.nist.gov/

Quantum mechanics is definitely "spooky":

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf114/sf114p12.htm

Theoretical research at CalTech:

http://www.theory.caltech.edu/~/alandahl/quic.html

Quintessential Quantum Page, links to all main research:

http://www.cwi.nl/~wimvdam/quantum.html

Details of recent experiments at Innsbruck:

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm

Quantum Information and Information Physics at IBM:

http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/

Quantum experiments at the University of Vienna:

http://www.euroquantum.org/

Quantum experiments and the foundation of Physics. Prof.
Zeilinger:

http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/

Print archive containing thousands of papers on Physics and
Quantum Physics:

http://www.lanl.gov/


Bibliography

J. Gribbin: In Search of Schrodinger's Cat, Bantam Books. (A
popular treatment of EPR and the paradox of "Schrodinger's cat"
that results from the Copenhagen interpretation.)

B.d'Espagnat: The quantum theory and reality, Scientific
American 241 #5 (November 1979).

N. Herbert: Quantum Reality, Doubleday. (A very good popular
treatment of EPR and related issues.)


--

"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Oct > Oct 17

                   Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story!

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:11:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:41:30 -0400
Subject: Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story!


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/4, Winter 2001, pp. 7-11.

http://www.fsreview.net

Frames warning...

Dr. Jung and the UFOs: The Real Story!
(C)  by Gordon Creighton

[Excerpt]

*****Skip to this point if you want to avoid Gordon Creighton's
opinions on the intellectual mafia. - TWC

"[In July of last year I received an E-mail from Mr. Chuck
Schultz of Colorado [...] asking for information regarding the
great Carl Jung's true opinions about UFOs.

This happened to be a very important question on which I had
done a lot of work in the years past, and which, as I knew, had
involved one of the most disgraceful examples of denial and
"cover-up" that I had ever encountered.

I was able to answer Chuck Schultz's questions but it has struck
me forcibly that this entire phase of UFO research history,
involving Dr. Jung, must be totally unknown to our younger
readers of today!

So I publish below an account, as succinct as I can make it,
describing Jung's years of study of "our subject", the
conclusions to which he finally came before he died in 1961, and
the highly successfull "cover story" maintained ever after to
prevent the world from knowing what those conclusions were !.
G.C.]

As we know, when the "Flying Saucer Phenomenon" erupted into
human consciousness in 1947 and the years immediately following,
the powerful folk of our world - politicians, military,
scientists, doctors, priests of religion - all had their own
particular reasons for being deeply worried.

But there was yet another important category who were possibly
even more perplexed and concerned.  These were - if one can lump
them together for convenience - the left-wing eggheads and
intellectuals and humanists, (so-called "liberals"), academics
and university circles, and of course quite especially perturbed
were those who called themselves "psychologists",
"psychiatrists", and "anthropologists".

The reason for this concern was that, by and large, the great
majority of these folk were no doubt of a left-wing, marxist,
materialistic, "atheistic" turn of mind, and therefore
inordinately attached to those favourite shibboleths of theirs
which we can term in general as "DARWINISM" + associated ideas.

For it could not require much gumption to perceive that, if ever
one single, solitary human or "humanoid" or man-like creature
were to step out of one of those "flying saucers", it would be a
mighty awkward moment for the theories of Darwin and his
followers.

I myself still recall with much amusement how, one day in the
early 50s - just five or six years or so after Kenneth Arnold's
famous sighting - a cleaning lady who worked regularly in our
house and whom my wife and I would have thought to be "pretty
thick", astonished us by pointing to a pile of my "UFO books"
and remarking: "IT WOULD ALL KNOCK THE BOTTOM OUT OF DARWINISM,
WOULDN'T IT!"

She, whom we had mistakenly thought an ignorant and benighted
soul, had instantly perceived the problem with total clarity.
 Neither my wife or I ever forgot the episode.

***** By the 1950s the great era of the Vienna School and of the
pioneers of Psychiatry, Freud, Adler, Ranke, was of course long
past, but there still remained the towering figure of one of
them, and the greatest, the Swiss Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)
who, after having collaborated closely in the early days in
Vienna with Freud, had finally broken away from him and
proceeded to elaborate his own new theory of the "Collective
Unconscious".

Jung was evidently a much bigger guru figure than Freud, and
very speedily indeed he began to perceive that this flying
saucer business might be something highly important.  He started
collecting material at once, about 1947, and lost no time in
contacting Donald Keyhoe in the U.S.A. and joining his group,
N.I.C.A.P. (National Investigative Committee on Aerial
Phenomena).

Jung was of course living in his home land, Switzerland, and one
of the earliest UFO study groups in Europe, the Association
Mondialiste Interplanetaire, had just been launched there under
Professor Alfred Nahon.

This group had a journal, Le Courier Interplantetaire, and they
quickly asked Jung to write an article for them.  I give below
the full text of Jung's article which, after appearing in French
in their journal, was re-published by our first FSR Editor,
Derek Dempster, in an English translation, in our second issue
of FSR (May/June 1955).  (As we can see, Jung was cautious in
his statements, and evidently determined not to reveal exactly
how much he knew or he suspected):-


I.  Dr. Carl Jung Himself on Unidentified Flying Objects
[Reprint from FSR Vol.1, No. 2 (May/June 1955)]

In the course of years, I have gathered together a considerable
mass of observations, included in which are reports by two
eyewitnesses known to me personally (I have never seen
anything!).  I have also read on the question.  However, I can
only say for certain: these things are not a mere rumour:
something has been seen.

A purely psychological explanation is ruled out by the fact that
a large number of observations indicate a natural phenomenon,
even a physical one (explainable in part as reflections or
temperature inversions).

The American Air Force (despite its contradictory statements),
as well as the Canadian, consider the observations to be real
and have set up special Bureaux to compile reports.  However,
the "disks" (that is, the objects themselves) do not behave in
accordance with physical laws, but as though without weight, and
they show signs of intelligent guidance, by quasi human pilots,
for their accelerations are such that no normal human could
survive.

What astonishes me most is that the American Air Force, despite
all the information in its possession and its so-called fear of
creating panic, seems to work systematically to do that very
thing (witness the Orson Welles radio play at New Jersey) since
it has never yet published an authentic and certain account of
the facts, only occasionally allowing information to be dragged
out of it by journalists.

This being so, it is impossible for the uninitiated to form an
adequate picture of what is happening.  Despite my own eight
years' compilation of all that has come to hand, I must admit
that I am no more advanced than at the beginning:  I still do
not know what these Flying Saucers are.  Observations read so
strangely that one might be tempted - if one wished to deny the
reality of the facts reported - to compare them to
parapsychological phenomena.

Because of the general uncertainty as to foundations, it would
be useless to speculate.  We must await what the future brings.
So-called "scientific" explanations, such as the theory of
reflections by Dr. Menzel, are not possible without abstracting,
'for convenience' sake, any reports which fail to fit in.

If these "bodies" are of extra-terrestrial origin, as is
affirmed, perhaps planetary (from Mars to Venus) one must not
forget observations which speak of "Saucers" springing from
earth or sea.  One must also take into consideration numerous
reports of thunderbolts, or of rare, stationary fireballs (not
to be confused with Saint Elmo's fire).

In such isolated cases thunderbolts can attain to considerable
dimensions, moving slowly from one cloud to another in the form
of a sphere of lightning-like brilliance, and of the apparent
thickness of a half-moon, or again making a passage for
themselves through a forest about 13 feet wide and 220 yards
long, splitting all the trees which lie in their path. They are
silent as the Saucers, or may disappear in a clap of thunder.

Perhaps these round thunderbolts, being isolated charges of
electricity (so-called necklace of pearl [;>))] lightning) are
the origin of those formations of Saucers, photographed several
times.

Often electrical phenomena have been reported in conjunction
with Saucer sightings.  If, despite this not yet explained
possibility, the extra-terrestrial origin of the phenomena
should be confirmed, this would prove the existence of an
intelligent interplanetary relationship.

What such a fact might mean for humanity cannot be predicted.
But it would put us, without doubt, in the extremely precarious
position of primitive communities today in conflict with the
superior culture of the whites: the rudder would be removed from
our grasp, and we should lose our pleasant dreams.

Naturally, it would be chiefly our science and our technology
which would have to be consigned to the dust-heap.  What such a
catastrophe would mean on the moral plane we can in some sort
judge by the ruin of primitive cultures of which we are
witnesses.  That the construction of these machines prove a
scientific technology, and one immensely superior to ours,
admits of no two opinions.  Just as the Pax Britannica put an
end to the disputes between the tribes of Africa, so our world
could unroll its Iron Curtain and use it as scrap iron, with all
the millions of tons of guns, warships and munitions.  This
would not be very serious.  But we would have been "discovered"
and colonised - sufficient reason for universal panic!

If we wish to avoid such a catastrophe, the authorities in
possession of important information should not hesitate to
enlighten the public as soon and as completely as possible and
should, above all, stop these ridiculous antics of mysteries and
vague allusions.

So, after all, there is nothing out-of-the-way in the statements
of ancient documents that all sorts of signs and miracles appear
in the skies, or that people look too the skies for a marvellous
intervention coming to the aid of human incapacity.

Our present day observations of Saucers coincide - mutatis
mutandis - with the many reports going back into antiquity,
though not in such astonishing frequency as in these times.  But
the possibility of the destruction of a whole continent, which
today is in the hands of politicians, has never existed
previously. -C.G.J.


II. Jung Writes a Book on UFOs.

Jung's next important step was to write a book, which was
published in Zurich, in his own native tongue, German, in 1958.
Its title was : FLYING SAUCERS: A MYTH OF THINGS SEEN IN THE
SKY.  It was at once translated into English by R.F.C. Hull, and
appeared in a mass paperback edition in the U.S.A. in 1959
(Signet: New American Library).

Although Jung was actually employing the term "myth" in its more
expressive, and more exotic sense, as of something "in a way
more real than real, i.e., archetypal", you can be sure that the
hordes of our critics and enemies were reassured and overjoyed.
A whole lot of folk no doubt felt immensely relieved!

But soon not everything was to their liking!  For there was real
dynamite in an interview that Jung gave to the NEW YORK HERALD-
 TRIBUNE - a very important newspaper - and which was published
in its issue for July 30, 1958.  It was an A.P. (Associated
Press) report from Alamogordo, New Mexico, dated July 29, and we
will give the [n] text of it at the end of this enquiry.

It must have sent shivers down some important spines, because
our enemies have succeeded wonderfully in getting it completely
buried and forgotten ever since - a situation which enables them
to carry on as before, right up to this day, harping on Jung's
initial belief that it was all a myth.

Never once have I seen this declaration of Jung referred to or
quoted, even by his own supporters or by "UFO Buffs".  As
Stanton Friedman never ceases to emphasise, the critics' game is
to refuse to look at the facts and to lie and to lie and to lie
'til the cows come home.

And if they can't win their point by argument, they invariably
descend to the cheapest levels of ridicule, defamation, and
slander.  If you can't win your point, get your man!

This is the treatment which we at FSR and all the other
researchers have had to endure for half a century.


III. Dr. Jung Says 'Flying Disks' Suggest Quasi-Human Pilots.

[To be continued.....]


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com






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   Oct > Oct 17

                  Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:12:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:45:15 -0400
Subject: Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/4, Winter 2001, pp. 7-11.

http://www.fsreview.net

Frames warning...

Dr. Jung and the UFOs: The Real Story!
(C) by Gordon Creighton


III. Dr. Jung Says 'Flying Disks' Suggest Quasi-Human Pilots.
[Re-print from FSR Volume 30, No. 5 (June 1985)

NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, July 30, 1958. Associated Press report
from Alamogordo, N.M., July 29.]

Dr. Carl Jung, Swiss psychologist, says in a report released
yesterday that unidentified flying objects are real, and show
signs of intelligent guidance by quasi-human pilots. "I can only
say for certain that these things are not a mere rumour.
Something has been seen. A purely psychological explanation is
ruled out". Dr. Jung, who had started his research on UFOs in
1944, issued his statement through the UFO-Filter Centre of the
Aerial Phenomena Research Association (A.P.R.O.) here. He said:

"I have gathered a mass of observations of unidentified flying
objects since 1944. The disks do not behave in accordance with
physical laws, but as though without weight."

"If the extraterrestrial origin of these phenomena should be
confirmed, this would prove the existence of an intelligent
interplanetary relationship. What such a fact might mean for
humanity cannot be predicted.

"But it would put us without doubt in the extremely precarious
position of primitive communities in conflict with the superior
culture of the whites.

"That the construction of these machines proves a scientific
technique immensely superior to ours cannot be disputed.

"The United States Air Force has said that investigations of
flying saucer reports over the last ten years have produced no
evidence that such things exist. It said last November that
investigations of 5,700 reported sightings showed that the
mysterious objects were balloons, aircraft, astronomical
phenomena, birds, fireworks, or hoaxes - among other things".

The care with which the foregoing statement by Professor Carl
Jung has been suppressed is highlighted by the extraordinary
fact that even we - at FSR - did not learn of its existence
until 1985 - TWENTY SEVEN YEARS LATER - when it was published by
me on page 22 of FSR 30/5 (June 1985)!

Nevertheless this delay should not be taken as indicating that
FSR had not been "on the ball" as regards Carl Jung. For the
actual fact is that we were for years in direct contact with
him, because one of FSR's best and most experienced European
Consultants was a member of the Jung family! Thus it is that we
knew more about Jung and have more on our files about him than -
 assuredly - any other UFO research group!

Our Consultant, Fraulein Louisa Zinsstag (known throughout the
UFO research community as "Lou Zinsstag"), was the daughter of a
woman cousin of Jung. And on top of that comes the interesting
fact that she was already widely reputed to be the top UFO
research expert among civilians in Switzerland! She frequently
came to London for a lunch and a long talk with us at FSR, and
she published a lot of articles, and I understand that her
collection of UFO photos was the best in Europe.

With her articles on UFOs, in the Swiss press, it did not take
long for her to get on the wrong side of the GNOMES OF ZURICH!
The result, as she once told me in great detail, was that she
found herself summoned to appear in the office of the Head of
the Swiss Secret Service. Open on the desk in front of him was a
publication with one of her articles. He told her flatly that he
would see to it that she never had another article on UFOs in
any Swiss publication. And, so far as I could learn, she didn't.

But she remained in close touch with Carl Gustav Jung. And here
is a re-print of the full text of her main report on her talks
with him, which we published in FSR Vol. 9, No. 4 (July/August
1963).

By that date Jung himself had of course already departed from
this world (in 1961). And she, the valiant female warrior for
the truth had gone too (in 1963 or 1964).

[In parenthesis let me here add that the legacy that she left
has probably not been dispersed as almost always happens in UFO
research - but has been preserved intact, for I recall that, two
or three years ago, in a telephone conversation which I had with
Herr Luc Burgin who is apparently today's leader in UFO studies
in Switzerland, he said that Lou Zinsstag's material is
preserved and stored in the archives of one of the Swiss
universities. I do not know which university, but no doubt Luc
Burgin can give details. His address is 28 Mulhauserstrasse,
4056 BASEL, SCHWEIZ. (Telephone: 0041/61322/8156.)


IV. Conversations with Dr. Jung (1958-59). by Lou Zinsstag.
[Reprint from FSR 9/4, (July/August 1953)]

Doctor Carl Gustav Jung was the cousin of my late mother. I had
never met him in my youth but I remember well how my mother and
her sisters talked about experiments in spiritism which he had
carried out as a student at Basle with their younger sister
Helene as his medium. In Jung's last book, a post-mortem
publication, he tells about those experiments without giving
away the name of his medium.

The early death of the pretty and beloved Helene had always been
partly ascribed by my mother to those strenuous experiments.
Considering, however, that Helene had lived another twelve years
after the experiments had been suspended I doubt this. Anyway,
this was the reason why my family lost touch with Carl Gustav, a
fact which I later often regretted.

My own interest in flying saucers arose in 1953. Within a few
years I was in the possession of a remarkable documentary
collection, including UFO photos. A friend of mine, a pupil of
Jung, told him about this and in the summer of 1958 I suddenly
received an invitation to come and have tea with him on a Sunday
afternoon. It was to be one of the best Sunday afternoons I had
ever spent.

Jung's personal charm and human appeal were such that few people
could help falling under his spell. Yet there was nothing of the
magician about him.

Notwithstanding his warm welcoming smile I noticed a sober and
discerning look in his blue eyes when we shook hands. After a
few brief remarks and questions on family matters he promptly
started talking about UFOs. We did not stop any more for the
best part of four hours.

His secretary was with us. She was English, and Jung made the
suggestion that we should use her language in conversation,
because, he said, "the language of air travel is English
everywhere in the world...."

>From the beginning, Jung made it clear that he was still a
sceptic and that my position would be difficult. this was true
up to a certain point but, on the other hand, his wonderful
sense of humour, his witty way of arguing, and above all his
impartiality and matter-of-factness made our conversation the
most delightful one I had ever had.

Jung told me that until recently he had believed that saucers
were made of a soft, fluffy material rather like silk, and not
of metal. However, some time ago he had a visit from a close
friend from the United States, a man of high rank in the army,
and a well-known scientist at a famous university.

This man (he witheld his name) described to him a personal and
most impressive UFO sighting which had lasted for more than
half-an-hour. Jung added that this person's judgement was as
trustworthy to him as his own, and as his friend had strongly
maintained that the object had been metallic, he was now ready
to drop his own belief in the silky material.

His readiness to confess to me, a newcomer, his former and
erroneous belief pleased me. I asked him if he was prepared to
receive a shock in looking at some pictures of such a metallic
ship? "Yes", he said, "I like getting shocks" and he laughed.

I then spread out on the table the seven original photos made by
Monguzzi on a glacier of the Bernina massive in the Alps. He
gasped at them as if out of breath and gave me a long look. The
smile vanished completely from his face. He took his magnifying
glass and scrutinised the pictures carefully for nearly five
minutes.

"It is unbelievable," he said several times slowly. "But you are
probably right, the object looks metallic." "So you would accept
those photos as genuine?" I asked. "There seems hardly to be any
doubt about this," he answered. "I fail to find any fault with
them."

He remarked that the blurred outline of the object showed the
same grain consistence as the rest of the picture and that the
photo with the figure in front of the object looked especially
convincing to him. I had never expected such a straightforward
acknowledgement.

He then asked for Monguzzi's story and for technical details. I
handed him the book by Alberto Perego, _Svelato il mistero dei
dischi volanti_, where he read all the particulars. He also
scrutinised the enlargements in this book. Never before had I
seen a person giving any pictures such a thorough and methodical
examination.

After that it was a pleasure to show him the rest of my
pictures. He doubted some of the night photos but he was
impressed by the unexpected variety in models and also by the
fact that no one seemed to try to make money out of them.

Jung told me that he was unable to accept contact stories as
true, especially those involving human pilots. As I did not want
a controversy to arise before he had seen the best of my photos,
I had kept back those of George Adamski. But Jung's truly
objective and impartial attitude made it easy for me to ask him
after a while if he would care to see them.

After a slight hesitation he agreed and I felt that he did so in
order to please me rather than out of real interest (he had
mentioned several times the devastating, yet false, description
Keyhoe had given in one of his books about Adamski's personality
and background).

So I spread the pictures out in front of him and said nothing.
Again I noticed how the smile vanished from his face; Adamski's
pictures were examined with the same intensity and sincerity as
those by Monguzzi. He again took a very long time. Suddenly,
with true amazement, he looked at the back of one photo and then
of all the others where Adamski puts his stamp with name,
address, and phototechnical details.

"Well" he said, "these stamps look awfully genuine, even
professional...." Then he gave me one of his stares. I still
kept silent but after a while I showed him the photo by Stephen
Darbishire and the comparison of the two photographs in Cramp's
book, _Space, Gravity and the Flying Saucer_.

At that Jung made funny noises with his teeth and tongue; his
secretary and I laughed. Later he remarked: "Adamski's pictures
could be true but his story is an invention."

To my question if he had read his books, Jung answered: "Partly,
but when I came to the beautiful young man with the silken hair
I could not go on reading. This sounds so ridiculous to me, like
a fairy tale...." "Can't you believe that there are creatures
superior in beauty to ourselves? Do you really think we are the
top in beauty?" I asked. He laughed goodheartedly. "You got me
there," he said, "I never thought about it in that way."

It was, however, evident and understandable that Jung, the
professor and scientist, was not ready to disavow the theories
of his colleagues in astronomy and physics. He maintained the
statement that life as we know it is possible on earth only.
This was in 1958, remember. When I took my leave he asked me
urgently to ring him up as soon as I came across new photographs
or other interesting material. I gave him this promise with
pleasure.

A few months later, with the splendid colour photo by Mrs. Agnes
Sanborn in my bag, I went again to Dr. Jung's house. He was
truly amazed when he looked at the picture and noticed at once
the resemblance of the object with the Adamski model, as he
admitted. On this afternoon he spoke to me about his forthcoming
book on the strange "myth" of the twentieth century and remarked
smilingly that I probably would not like it much.

Yet he took the trouble to explain to me how, as a psychiatrist
and a specialist in dream interpretation, he had for years
collected material of dreams about a particular archetype, the
symbol of eternity, which is the sacred Tibetan circle, the
mandala.

It was fascinating to hear him talk in this connection about
alchemy and its symbolism. In conclusion he added that in his
opinion many sighting reports of recent date belonged to the
realm of religious vision as coming from people "who in day- or
night-dreams perceived the symbol of eternity in the sky."

"And what about the cigar-shaped form?" I asked rather
stubbornly. He hesitated before saying in good humour: "To tell
you frankly, they worry me. I admit that only the round objects
fit into my category". Again, I admired him for his honesty.

Later, he explained to me that to write about UFOs as such was
not his business; he would always leave this to the experts in
physics or astronomy, respectively. He himself would not want
them to meddle with his own branch of science. "I took care not
to meddle with theirs and this is why I did not disclose in my
book my private research and interest in the physical nature of
the UFOs," he added.

My third and last visit took place in March, 1959. We came to
talk about myths and legends concerning people who come from
above, bringing sometimes help to the distressed or solutions to
world problems. He knew scores of them.

When I mentioned Lohengrin and the, to me, intriguing aria of
Wagner's opera, "Nie sollst du mich befragen..." he took it
first as a mere joke, but then he suddenly exclaimed: "Wait a
moment, he indeed came on wings from above and he fled as soon
as he was recognised.... he must have brought a false passport
with him..."

This was an allusion to a statement of mine that true spacemen
never give their names away. We laughed at the idea of
Lohengrin's passport.

But when I insisted on the possibility of a factual reality
behind such legends he did not agree fully. "Things are not so
simple as you think they are. Myths are not only based on racial
memories of prehistoric happenings. There is much more to it.
Neither the individual nor the collective subconsciousness is
merely made up of submerged memories. Our subconsciousness is
also the place where our god lives."

>From there on our conversation took quite another turn; UFOs
were not mentioned again. I left him with a feeling that I had
spoken to a true prophet of our time, and also with a hunch that
I had seen him for the last time. This proved to be correct.


COMMENT FROM EDITOR OF FSR.

The care and skill with which this vitally important statement
from Carl Jung has been ignored and suppressed is highlighted by
the fact that, as already mentioned above, even we at FSR did
not learn of its existence until 1985 - TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS LATER
- when Miss Marry Goodall of Beckenham, Kent received a copy of
it from Mr Philip Goodhart, M.P., and sent it on to us!


FURTHER NOTE.

The influence of Jung is still clearly very strong. In a recent
article in _Swirled News_, "Eyewitness Account of Crop Circle
Forming in the Netherlands" - Oct 25, 2001, the well-known crop
circle researcher Nancy Talbott of the BLT Research Team Inc
speculates "as to whether the crop circles may not be evidence
of some external consciousness and/or purpose in energy orms or
life forms currently unknown to us and un-named?

"Was there in them a consciousness directing them, or was it our
own unconscious or subconscious? If not ours, was it possibly
Jung's Collective Unconscious, was it a consciousness inherent
in Nature, or was it from another dimension, galaxy, or perhaps
directly from the Almighty?

"We don't know the answer. What we suspect is that the answer to
these questions, in fact the actual pursuit of these answers,
will greatly affect human awareness.

"What we hope is that 21st century humanity will recognise this
possibility soon, and join in the effort to uncover new aspects
of reality which we may currently only faintly imagine."



For the full story see the Swirled News website at:

http://www.swirlednews.com


[TYPIST'S NOTE: I fat-fingered these excerpts and edited in or
out obvious missing letters and punctuation. The writing style
makes ample use of bold and italics accenting which I ignored.
Terry]


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Oct > Oct 17

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:08:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:47:24 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:55:11 +0200
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story


Gildas,

You wrote,

>Your white stripe argument strikes me as just another twist in a
>long story of claims that the Fort Worth pictures showed the
>real Roswell debris.

I believe all sources of information have to be verified if we
are to arrive at the truth. I went into researching Roswell on
the basis of everthing has to be questioned and a good example
was the drawing. Stan Friedman always said "Don't believe what
I'm telling you to be the truth, do the research and verify the
facts for your self." He is right. Arm chair research/theorizing
gets one nowhere.

Applying this approach to the ML307/AP drawing you have to ask
yourself is the drawing legit. Is there another source where I
can verify the drawing is correct with respect to the
information it's providing. Do I accept everthing it says to be
correct. No, of course not. It just wouldn't be good research.

The results of this research have uncovered items which impact
my acceptance of the MC307C/AP drawing as being legit. I now
know several things about the drawing that I didn't know a year
ago.

1. The officail drawing of the ML307A/AP and ML307B/AP does not
show a white stripe.

2. The ML307C/AP does not exist in the museum the AF reference
in their report.

3. The ML307C/AP is not mentioned in the 1951 training manuals.

4. Pictures of the ML307B/AP target do not show white stripes.

5. The ML307A/AP is not recorded in SC-D-14407 which depicts the
ML307C/AP target.

6. Professor Moore makes no mention of the ML307A/AP in his
historical account of the drawing.

I don't know about you but to me this is sufficient cause to re-
evaluate my interpetation of the ML307(*)/AP drawing with
respect to appling it against the FTW photos and drawing
specific conclusions.

The conclusion I have arrived at is that there were no rawin
targets with white stripes based on what I see thus far. My
research is not complete yet, I'm still looking for additional
information. It may very well be that I might be proven wrong
and if I am I would hope that it's based on hard evidence, and
not through character assination responses. Those types of
responses are not necessary and are quite frankly uncalled for.

We have to consider all of the possibilities and there are some
real good ones that come across the list from time to time. If
there was a way to combine the talent that exist on the list
into a working team enviroment, the Roswell Incident would be
solved in no time at all, but I guess that light years away.


Best Regards,

Andrew








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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:13:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:53:48 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:26:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:34:33 +0200
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

><snip>

>>>I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
>>>about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
>>>becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
>>>is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.

>>Andrew,

>>Where are you trying to drive us? To discover that is was flying
>>saucer?

>>Excellent to add confusion and ridicule to the Roswell case.

I agree 100% with Gildas. That's all this nonsense does.

>Please reference my response to David for details. There is no
>confusion, simply facts that show the drawing David is
>referencing is a red herring and cannot be trusted.

There are no facts showing anything of the sort, just nitpicking
over insignificant details. His claim is pure fantasy. He can't
refute what I'm saying about the drawing (it actually specifies
white strips), so now he has to claim it's phony. He is also
claiming the photos I've referred to of other rawins showing the
white strips have been likewise "doctored." This is utter
madness.

>David even admits this himself. He now says that the ML307C/AP
>orignal drawing was cleverly altered by the AF.

This was obvious sarcasm on my part. I was poking fun at his
"red herring" argument, but he didn't get it.

>In my resonse to David I
>have shown that there are no white stripes on the rawin target,
>therefore the panels in the photos are not part of a rawin
>target.

He has never shown anything of the sort. He has misinterpreted
instructions about gluing and taping and tried to claim they
forbid white strips, which is completely untrue.  Furthermore,
the white strips are also clearly drawn in several places on the
schematic, as I have pointed out to him several times. He can't
refute this, so his fall-back is the "red herring" doctored
document nonsense.

But I'm the deluded one, having been suckered by clever Air
Force alterations of documents and photos to make me think they
were there when they weren't. (Except now he thinks I really do
think the drawing is phony, instead of realizing I was joking.)

It escapes him that his logic is also inconsistent. If the
document really were altered to make us think the strips were
there, then wouldn't the AF criminal masterminds also alter the
gluing/taping instructions which he claims prove they weren't
there?

With these various bizarre contortions of logic and magical
thinking, he claims that there were no white strips on rawin
targets, even though there obviously were. And if there were no
white strips, then the photos are not of a radar target. This
may be the craziest argument I have ever encountered, maybe even
topping pelicans.

>Is the debris from a downed UFO? I can't say 100%. I can say
>one thing, there is alot of material in the photos that doesn't
>belong to a rawin target. That much I can see.

It's pretty clear that Andrew LeVoie and Neil Morris are on some
sort of personal crusade, and facts, logic, and common sense
will not deter them. Broken sticks with dried glue beads plus
torn foil and paper under the harsh lighting of a camera flash
have been inflated into a whole menagerie of supposedly
"anomalous" objects which exist purely in their imaginations.


David Rudiak







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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:01:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - White


>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
>Subject: Remote Viewing?

<snip>

>Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
>Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
>will help our research, and the research of other authors.


Thierry -

"Help" authors and researchers is an extreme understatement!

Remote viewing is the most powerful way available to learn the
truth about UFOs, alien activity, government cover up, you name
it. I say _bravo_ and God speed and _thanks_ to you for raising
this issue.

It is absolutely _tragic_ that people in the West, seniour UFO
researchers, scientists, the media, heap ridicule on what is so
obviously the "next level" of scientific progress, instead of
taking advantage of this technology with all possible speed.


Eleanor White








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                 CI: Manned Chinese Space Mission Successful

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:10:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:05:36 -0400
Subject: CI: Manned Chinese Space Mission Successful


Cydonian Imperative
10-15-03

Manned Chinese Space Mission Successful
by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


Today China made history by becoming the third country to place
a human in space. Compared to the Apollo missions of the 1960s,
this feat seems minor. But it might prove catalytic. China
harbors ambitious plans for space -- not limited to unmanned
probes and Earth orbital missions such as the ones planned for
the retooled American Space Shuttle fleet. In light of China's
stated intention of landing on the Moon (not to sight-see, but
to establish a base), NASA's agenda may be forced into something
similarly far-reaching.

Space commentators think the chances of China's launching a new
"Space Race" are dubious at best; after all, China's space
infrastructure is decades behind. Or is it? We tend to think of
joint American/European efforts such as the International Space
Station (ISS) as the pinnacle of manned space technology,
forgetting that NASA once aimed much higher.

[image]

A permanent Moon base. China wants to establish a presence on
the Moon by 2008.

If the Chinese are able to capitalize on low-gravity
construction methods, it's not unreasonable to expect China to
be the first nation to reach Mars. Meanwhile, NASA -- crippled
by the behemoth of the ISS and a redundant, aging Shuttle fleet
-- may be unable to rally the exploratory savvy to keep up. Will
it take the success of a perceived technological adversary to
push NASA out of its decades-long lethargy?

[image]

Patch by Kenn Brown.

Ultimately, no one wants a repeat of the paranoid spectacle that
climaxed with American astronauts planting their flag on the
lunar surface. Rather than scoffing at China's first attempts to
become a space power or cringing at its implicit rivalry, the
United States should embrace China's heroic first leap into the
abyss -- and reinvent its own space program accordingly.

-end-








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                   UFO Sighting - Hamilton, Ohio 10-15-03

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:03:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:12:38 -0400
Subject: UFO Sighting - Hamilton, Ohio 10-15-03


Subject: UFO SIGHTING
LOCATION: Hamilton, OH (Butler County)
DATE: October 15, 2003 - 8:45 p.m.

SUMMARY

Stuart Linder (name used with permission) telephoned the
Cincinnati UFO Hotline (513-588-4548) to report sighting an
unusual object. Within minutes, he was contacted at the phone
number he provided (on file) and explained that around 8:45
p.m., he was at his Hamilton, Ohio residence and walking past a
window (facing north) when he spotted an unusual object.

The object, Linder said, was in the sky situated directly over
the Hamilton High School in Hamilton, Ohio (Butler County) and
was described as a multi-colored "upside down diamond" rotating
in place very slow. Linder estimated the object was around 45
degrees above the horizon at a possible elevation of 25,000
feet, about the height of normal airplanes, he said, situated
from his perspective 'directly over the High School.'

The witness said that there were a few lights on the object, but
for the most part, it was "luminous." The witness described a
mutli-colored, "self emanating glow" which the object seemed to
radiate, making the shape of the object visible against a dark
sky.

Linder said the diamond-shaped object had changed color from
red, green, blue, to white, and the lights were rotating, not
flashing.

He estimated the object was 1/4 mile long but said that, at arms
length, the object was as big as his pinky fingernail.

The object was visible for an estimated 10-minutes. Lindner said
he was about to grab a camcorder and the object "took off" at an
incredible speed to his left, or west toward the Oxford area.

"This thing just sped away as if going into warp speed," Linder
said. "I couldn't believe it."

He described its acceleration as 'extreme.'

Linder also said that two military jets had traveled overhead
about 20-minutes after the sighting, probably flying from South
to north. They were apparently flying high and out of sight, but
Linder estimated they were military aircraft due to turbine
sound of engines.

Sky conditions were clear at the time with temperatures
in the 50s.

COMMENT

On September 24, 2003, a Franklin, Ohio resident contacted
Wright Patterson Air Force Base to report sighting a pattern of
green flashing lights around 10:30 p.m. near her home at the
Heartland Subdivision. Franklin is around 17-miles northeast of
Hamilton.

Filed,
October 15, 2003
KENNY YOUNG
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo








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                         UFO Video Out of This World

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:34:54 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:25:40 -0400
Subject: UFO Video Out of This World


Source: Grimsby Telegraph - UK

http://www.thisisgrimsby.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=59380&command=displayConte
nt&sourceNode=58907&contentPK=7421476

ROB BURMAN

12:30 - 16 October 2003

The suspected UFO sighting in Grimsby has been the source of
speculation across the globe.

Earlier this month we printed the strange account of Steve
Musson and his wife Caron, who spotted a "black shiny disc"
above their home in Bodiam Way, Grimsby. Mr Musson filmed the
obscure object with his video camera.

The footage, which lasted for little more than a minute, showed
a black object coming in and out of view.

The video was digitally enhanced but identification of the disc
remained a mystery.

After printing the original article, the Telegraph was flooded
with responses from flying saucer spotters in locations across
the globe, including America, India and Milan.

Some gave accounts of their own peculiar encounters, while
others drew parallels with UFO sightings in other countries.

One response was from UFO expert Dianne Goodman who published a
book called Door to Atlantis.

She has had numerous paranormal encounters and had now added the
UFO sighting in Grimsby to her extraterrestrial files.

Bruce Maccabee has been studying a similar account of a UFO
encounter in Tennessee, America, back in August.

He, too, gave a description of a black disk in the sky.

The article even caught the attention of a self-proclaimed
paranormal investigator.

Chris Augustin, who runs www.aliensthetruth.com, a site
dedicated to the study of aliens and paranormal sightings,
contacted the Telegraph to obtain a copy of Mr Musson's video.

Mr Augustin said: "I have been studying the phenomenon for more
than seven years.

"I found the Steven Musson sighting to be very interesting, to
say the least."

Another response came from a 16-year-old student from India.

She saw a strange object in the sky while on a school trip to
Bangalore.

She said: "It emitted some weird, very bright coloured lights.
It was flying pretty slowly for a few minutes and then I do not
know where it went."

rob.burman@grimsbytelegraph.co.uk








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                       The Windmills May Be Weakening

From: Gavin McLeod <gavin_mcleod@telus.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:14:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:33:20 -0400
Subject: The Windmills May Be Weakening


Hello Listers: I received an E-Mail request and noticed that the
origin was the United States Congress. This is an edited message
(to insure privacy for the individual). There is no indication
of a spoofed address.


-----Original Message-----

From: Gavin McLeod [mailto:gavin@ufobc.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: Request from Washington, D.C.

I am very interested in your views on the UFO phenomenon
especially as you work within the government structure and the
official government view is that there is nothing to
investigate.

Gavin McLeod A.Sc.T.
President
UFO British Columbia

-----

Reply to My Message:

I have been working very hard to get the info about UFO's out to
select Members of Congress. They know as much as the average
American knows, which isn't very much. But I am happy to say I
have made it my business to inform several members at length and
they are very interested. The problem is that there are so many
more important (in their view) issues -- like the Iraq war, the
budget, health care, etc. that the UFO subject takes the back
seat.

It is important for us all who know the truth to give the FACTS
(and there are plenty, as you know) to anyone who will listen.

I work for a very influential member of Congress and he's
convinced and has been -- so that makes my employment here more
pleasant than most.







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                         ACUFOS News #1 October 2003

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:48:36 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:40:45 -0400
Subject: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003


Australian Centre for UFO Studies
Issue #1 - October 2003

ACUFOS newsletters will also be available on line at
www.acufos.asn.au

In this issue:

1. ACUFOS web site launch
2. New ACUFOS Journal "UFO Quest"
3. Disclosure Australia Project
4. 2004 National UFO Conference
5. Tasmanian UFO Statistics 2003
6. Australian UFO Directory
7. Special Events

______________________________________

1. Australian Centre for UFO Studies now on the www.

After a bit of a slog and a lot of help from our web master Lee
Earle, ACUFOS now has a web site available at:

http://www.acufos.asn.au

We invite you to visit and give your comments or suggestions.

ACUFOS represents a national body and as such seeks your
opinions and feedback, especially from the Australian UFO
community. (please note, the web site is in it's very early
stages and still under construction)
 ______________________________________

2. Launch of new ACUFOS journal "UFO Quest"

The search for real truth is what motivates many people to
dedicate their lives to this subject. Those people who do so
undertake a quest for truth by answering it's "call" to be
known. So, after some consideration we decided that a change of
name for the Acufos journal was in order to reflect what we feel
is the heartbeat of ufology - the call of truth longing to be
revealed!

We felt this title was much more reflective of that call.

To introduce readers to UFO Quest we are offering the very first
issue for FREE at:

http://www.acufos.asn.au/publications/publications.html

you'll need Adobe Acrobat to view the file.

The first issue features the following articles -


The Tyers Farm Event

This article details the efforts of PRA (Phenomena Research
Australia) in obtaining instrumental data on anomolous events
linked to a UFO sighting, the unusual behaviour of cattle and
the unusual sensations of a farmer and his wife. This is the
first time to our knowledge that the potential usefulness of
these instruments and procedures has been experimentally
established.


Estimating Distances

If you investigate UFO sightings then you may be interested to
know when an "eye judgment" of size and distance can be relied
upon and when not.


The Many Challenges of the Volunteer Ufologist

UFO organisations are supported and run by volunteers. Voluntary
organisations are very different to businesses and corporations
and have their own set of hurdles to cross. If you have bumped
into any of these this article might get you nodding in
agreement.


Tools of the Trade - UFO Detectors

Ufology has its tools of trade just like any other pursuit. Some
of the tools are words, others are ideas, yet others are skills
and finally there are instruments. This issue we take a look at
UFO detectors.


Alien Abductions & Natural Selection

"Natural selection" has accumulated on this planet a veritable
biological gold mine over many millenia. We may think nothing of
it, but guess what! Certain ETs are very aware of these riches
and seem to be helping themselves to it.

UFO Quest welcomes research contributions and well-based
creative specualtion, news, reviews, experiments and indeed
anything that can further progress our understanding of the UFO
phenomenon. Determined searching for answers may not be
everybody's cup of tea, and by definition, the next step forward
may not be recognised when first presented. UFO Quest will not
require a large membership in order to be self sustaining so
"unpopular" contributions are just fine with us.
______________________________________

3. Disclosure Australia Project

This project was launched in June 2003 at the 3rd National UFO
conference held in Brisbane. Records held by the National
Archives of Australia are currently being searched for official
documents on UFO sightings to ascertain the extent of Australian
Government knowledge of the UFO phenomenon. Records revealed are
then documented along with civilian knowledge at the Disclosure
Australia web site at http://disclosure.freewebpage.org

Newsletters updating the progress of this project are also
available on the site.

 ______________________________________

4. 2004 National UFO Conference - Sydney NSW

The next National UFO Conference will be hosted in Sydney by
UFOR NSW and UFOSWS. The date is still to be confirmed and a
list of speakers will be promulgated in due course.
______________________________________

5. Tasmanian UFO Statistics

Source: Tasmanian UFO Investigation Centre (TUFOIC)

2003 (to Sept)

Unidentified            3
Astronomical           29
Aircraft                2
Satellites              9
Ground lights           4
Others/investigating    8
____________________
Total reports          55

TUFOIC contact details

www.geocities.com/tufoic
tufoic@yahoo.com
ph: (03) 6223 6009

______________________________________

6. Australian UFO Directory

For some time now the Australian UFO community has needed a
central collection point where National contact details of
active UFO groups, researchers investigators can be recorded.
The Australian UFO Directory is a comprehensive record of such
information and is available on the ACUFOS web site. It is
updated on a regular basis and if you want to be listed or know
of someone we have omitted please contact us. Please also advise
us if your details need updating.
______________________________________

7. Special Events

Sydney - UFOR NSW workshop.
UFO RESEARCH AND SOCIAL CHANGE
Presenter Victor Viggiani, BA M.Ed

This workshop conducted by Victor Viggiani, a Canadian
Ufologist, will be held on Saturday 25 October 2003 between
10.00 am and 5.00 pm at the Phillips Room, 2nd floor, Bowlers
Club of NSW, 95-99 York Street, Sydney. Cost $20 members and $25
non-members. Enquiries can be made to Wendy Burnham in Sydney on
02 9808 1184.

Please post far and wide. Thank-you.







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   Oct > Oct 17

                 Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:30:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:45:20 -0400
Subject: Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery


"Unexplained images appear in local man's wildlife photos"

Keyed article from the Adams County (Ohio) People's Defender

Wednesday, October 15, 2003

By Jynx Jenkins, Staff Writer for People's Defender

http://www.peoplesdefender.com

While speculation and theory have consumed the region
following the recent crop circle discoveries, one Brown
County resident stumbled upon what some may consider a
challenge to rational explanation.

Michael Franklin and his wife Marsha, reside on their farm in
Ellsberry where they enjoy observing nature and spending time on
their land. According to Mr. Franklin, he had recently purchased
a "deer camera", popularly advertised in hunting stores and
magazines, to observe deer on his property in preparation for
hunting season. To the uninitiated, cameras of this type use 35
mm film and can be programmed to react to both heat and movement
within a 30 foot radius, by snapping a photo with a flash. The
camera can also be programmed to take photos at one, six, and
eight, minute intervals, as well as by the hour.

After mounting the camera at a hilltop grazing area to
photograph through the night on Tuesday, Sept. 23, and into the
next morning, Mr. Franklin felt sure he would see deer, as well
as the usual night creatures, on the film. However, after
developing the roll, the Franklin's observed images that
perplexed them.

"We looked at the prints quickly on the way to a picnic," said
Mrs. Franklin, an English teacher at Mason County in Kentucky,
"and at first were disappointed because there were no deer in
sight. But then we realized that the shapes in the sky were not
normal."

"We just decided that people needed to see these pictures," Mr.
Franklin told The Defender.

Upon chronological inspection of the prints in question, a
sequence seemed to emerge beginning with a white obelisk in the
center of the frame. The photos, taken in the westwardly
direction, then show what appears to be a bright flash,
accompanied by streams of light or white area following. The
next frame shows the white or light area moving south west, or
to the left, in the frame.

While there has been no professional evaluation of the photos or
the camera itself, the area in question was investigated by
Defender publisher, Caleb Grooms and reporter, Jynx Jenkins on
Wednesday, Oct. 1. Along with Mr. Franklin, Grooms and Jenkins
traveled to the area and found that the pictures, taken in the
morning hours of Sept. 24, sometime before 11 a.m., did indeed
face west, ruling out the possibility of the sun itself being
captured on film in the sky. Also, the distance of the tree line
from the actual camera mounting site is beyond the 30 ft.
detection radius, leaving the execution of the shots unanswered,
except for the possibility of extreme heat tripping the sensor.

While many photos of such subject matter can be disproved or
found to be camera or processing faults, the Franklin's feel the
pictures should be seen and judged by each viewer. No conjecture
as to the nature or the origin of the subject matter within the
photos shown has been made by the editorial staff of The
People's Defender.

End of article
(Note: see website for photos)
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo







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                          UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:42:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:49:06 -0400
Subject: UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies


Source: Bahrain Tribune (See pictures at site)

http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?ArticleId=9630&CategoryId=0

10-15-2003

UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies

People from around the country have reported seeing an
Unidentified Flying Object in the skies of Bahrain emitting
strange lights for about a minute at around 11pm on Friday.

Bahraini Mohammed Jaffer Al Hajer was sitting with six of his
friends outside his home in Qurrayah village near Budaiya when
they noticed the UFO in the distant skies. Al Hajer caught the
strange object on his digital video camera as the lights
appeared twice once when the UFO emitted a bright yellow light
and the second time when it split into two before disappearing.

We first noticed the strange light appear to the left of the
Batelco tower in the village, he said. We saw it again just
above the tower when I reached for my camera and began to video
tape it. Al Hajer videotaped the object for about 40 seconds
before it disappeared. The pictures were not clear because of
the high speed of the object and the low resolution of the
camera, according to Al Hajer. People in Manama also reported
seeing the UFO at the same time and placed it between Manama and
Muharraq, in the same vicinity as Al Hajer claimed.

However, sources at Bahrain International Airport tower told the
Tribune that the radars there did not register any abnormal
activity during that time.

The lights emanating from the UFO as it split into two, as
recorded by Al Hajer. The red blur is the Batelco tower light.








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                          UFO Video Footage Wanted

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:37:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:51:35 -0400
Subject: UFO Video Footage Wanted


Dear colleagues,

I have been asked to assist a UFO documentary film maker in the
USA. The director in question is looking for previously unseen
UFO video footage.

Do you have any such UFO video footage? Do you know any of your
colleagues who has such UFO video footage? If you do then
perhaps you could help with the proposed documentaty in
question.

With the greatest of respect we are looking for the best UFO
video footage around. Not just blobs of light in the distant
sky, but UFOs clear and simple.

If you can help me locate such UFO video footage I would be
extremely grateful. Please e-mail me at my temporary e-mail
address of: philipmantle@hotmail.com

Please feel free to pass this message on and I look forward to
hearing from you in due course.


Regards,

Philip Mantle

PS: We are particularly looking for material from the former USSR.








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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:08:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 06:01:50 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:33:30 +0100
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>Dave and David, And significantly the the symbols Moore recalled
>the tape had and had drawn up, look nothing like the symbols
>witnesses recall seeing on the debris.

>http://130.88.237.88:1947/images/compx.gif

Another link for comparison:

http://www.roswellproof.com/beams_symbols_compare.html

There doesn't seem to be much in common in any of the various
descriptions.

>>One interesting thing that Neil Morris did spy in the Ramey
>>photos, that had been previously overlooked, was twine tied onto
>>the neck of the balloon on the floor. Although Neil
>>unfortunately inflated it into a mysterious anomalous "cable,"
>>a string tied to the balloon neck is exactly what one would
>>expect to find.

>David, I think there is a fatal flaw in your assumption that the
>"cables" I see associated with a piece of beam debris are in
>fact the twine associated with the "envelope" material. The flaw
>being that when the debris is moved between photographs my
>"cables" stay associated with their beam debris while the
>envelope material is completely moved and re-arranged and any
>"twine" associated with this material would therefore move too.
>Like I've said the "cables" remain in place relative to the
bea
>material.

>This is observed in the two images Marcel Right and Newton, by
>using the chairs and knot marking in Ramey's floor you can see
>that the debris on the paper has been moved some 6" to the right
>and also forward by maybe the same amount. Now the debris on the
>paper you would not expect to move relative to each other, you
>would after all just drag the paper en-mass.

I see no indication that the balloon material (Neil's "envelope"
material) has been signficantly moved between these two photos.
In fact, most of the right side of the balloon is concealed in
the Marcel Right photo by the foil triangle being held in the
air by Marcel. And the left side of the balloon is concealed in
the Newton photo by the triangle and Newton's leg. In the Marcel
photo, only the very right edge of the balloon can be seen
peeking out under a stick, and this is where the cord in
question is as well, visibly tied on to the balloon neck at this
point. This is also where the right pointed end of the balloon
envelope ends in the Newton photo, which is clearly visible.

Nor is there any indication that the paper on the floor has been
moved. The paper runs diagonally. to the rug stripes and rug
edge and goes off the rug near where the cord in question is. An
excellent reference point is the overlapping paper seam, which
intersects the rug edge at about the same point that the paper
goes off the rug. Behind that a little to the left is a knothole
along a darkened line in the floor, clearly visible in the
Newton photo, just visible under Marcel's left shoe. The paper
seam at the edge has not moved relative to the knothole. Thus
the paper has not been moved.

Using the reference point and counting rug stripes to the left,
there also doesn't seem to be any signficant movement to the
front looping part of the cord visible in both pictures, and the
right edge of the balloon also seems to be the about the same
position.

As to the debris on the paper, some has been moved, some has
not. The main differences are the large foil triangle in all the
photos that Marcel and Newton are holding in different places
and another stick/foil piece that Newton is now holding in his
right hand instead of lying on the paper and rug in the other
photos.

Smaller debris near the paper seem has barely shifted, certainly
nothing like the 6-9" he claims.

His other claim that debris pieces would not be expected to move
relative to each other but would be moved en masse is silly.
Relative movement is as simple as picking up a piece and putting
it somewhere else, or brushing up against a piece with a shoe.
These weren't boulders; they were extremely lightweight debris
like aluminum foil, and it doesn't take much to move them
around.

_But_ the "envelope" fabric _is_ _not_ on the paper, but it too
is moved and it is apparently loose fabric of some sort or
rubber depending on your point of view, and it's flexable and
floppy. _If_ it did have twine attached to it as you maintain,
what are the odds of getting the location of said twine in just
the same position relative to the other debris after just
lifting and moving this flexable material even this 6"-9"
inches??.

This, I'm sorry, to say, is just Neil's imagination running wild
again. The cord hasn't significantly shifted positions relative
to fixed reference points (knothole, rug edge, and paper seam),
nor has most of the other debris on the paper near there, and
where he gets some major shift in the balloon position is beyond
me, unless he has x-ray vision. The right visible side of the
balloon is where the cord is also seen, and I don't see any
major changes here either.

>What's
>more in between these two reference pictures there is evidence
>that a feature seen on the envelope material far to the left of
>the "cables" feature in the Marcel Right image appears to it's
>right in the Newton image, indicating the envelope material,
>whatever it is, has been radically move round between these two
>pictures _yet_ the "cables" feature appears to be still in an
>identical position relative to the associated beam material
>after all this movement. Hence my belief that the "cable"
>material is probably not associated with "balloon" twine, the
>balloon gets moved round yet it's alleged attached "twine" stays
>where it is.

Even if Neil is right about some feature on the _left_ side of
the balloon shifting beween pictures, the cord is over on the
_right_ side. Why does the right side of a floppy, flexible
balloon necessarily "care" what's going on over the left side? I
see no indication of any significant movement on the right side
of the balloon or in the position of the cord.

This is another of Neil's "so what?" arguments that don't make
any sense and have no point. What it really amounts to is a
mindset that the debris just _has_ to be anomalous. A string
can't just be a string tied to the neck of the balloon. If
someone like me says that's all it is, then some convoluted
argument gets dreamt up that somehow is supposed to show that I
am wrong. Thus we get all these imaginary large shifts of the
balloon that supposedly dissociate it from the string. Voila--
it's no longer a string tied to a balloon, it's something else
very mysterious and anomalous. Neil needs to look at his own hi-
res scan of the Marcel photo where the cord/string/twine is very
clearly attached to the end of the balloon.

>>However, Mack Brazel claimed not to find any string to support
>>the "foil and sticks" object he found, yet there it is, plain as
>>day in the photos (once you know where to look for it). It
>>would have been rather hard for him to miss. This is yet
>>another indication that what was in Ramey's office had nothing
>>at all to do with what Brazel really found and Brazel's story
>>was just a put-up job.

>>Ramey's early "hexagon" description, however, is the real
>>smoking gun of a prearranged RAWIN cover story. Only an intact
>>RAWIN might ever resemble a hexagon. The torn-up radar target
>>in his office would never generate such a description.

>I don't think there's anything strange in this, the debris was
>foil like, radar targets used foil, the std radar target at the
>time was the ML307, assembled I guess you could say it looked
>hexagonal or at least 6 pointed. And if, as the ST photo's
>indicate FWAAF was launching and tracking these by radar, it
>would be an obvious initial assumption to jump to that the
>debris might be the remains of one of these targets.

Well, now Neil is backpedaling and contradicting himself. The
main point is you can't describe the object as "hexagonal"
without already knowing exactly what it is.

Neil has been trying to make a Federal case out of a Reuters'
quote that none of Ramey's men recognized it as an Army type
balloon. But a rawin _is_ Army balloon equipment, developed
specifically for the Army weather services during WWII. You
can't think or even guess it might be an ML307 rawin and not
know that it was also an Army weather device.

More importantly, you can't deduce a "hexagonal" shape by
looking at torn-up debris. Calling a rawin "hexagonal" would
only be done by somebody highly familiar with intact, assembled
rawins. Further these might only look "hexagonal" if viewed from
a distance and viewed directly from the bottom or top. Close up
or viewing a little off to the side, and there is nothing
"hexagonal" about them at all. Thus somebody who launched these
devices and viewed them from underneath as they went up and
soared out of sight might notice a hexagonal profile, but why
would Ramey know about such things?

So why does Ramey tell Major Kirton to describe the torn up
object in his office as "hexagonal" while also saying that
nobody recognized at as an Army device? The statements are
contradictory. If somebody recognized it as a rawin and was also
so highly familiar with rawins that they knew they might look
hexagonal when intact, then why the cat and mouse game about the
identity, and why the statement that nobody recognized it for
what it was?

>Yet they still came out with the two statements that a) after
>checking with Wright Field it "HAD NOT BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF"
>and b) "none of the men at this base can identify it as an army
>type balloon". (The FBI teletype and the Reuters report)

The Reuters' quote from Major Kirton (time unknown): "Before
Brigadier General Ramey's broadcast, Major Edwin Kirton, duty
officer at Eighth Air Force headquarters at Fort Worth, quoted
him as saying 'it looks like a **hexagonal **object covered with
tinfoil or other shining material suspended from a balloon of
about twenty feet in diameter. It is possibly a weather balloon
flown at the highest altitude but none of the army men at this
base recognize it as an army type balloon.'"

FBI quoting Kirton (6:17 p.m. CST telegram): "The disc is
**hexagonal** in shape and was suspended from a balloon by
cable, which balloon was approximately twenty feet in diameter.
Further advised that the object found resembles a high altitude
weather balloon with a radar reflector, but that telephonic
conversation between their office and Wright Field had not born
out this belief. Disc and balloon being transported to Wright
Field by special plane for examination."

The Reuters' statement has less detailed information and almost
certainly preceded the FBI telegram. The same statements about
the object _looking_ or being hexagonal in shape and suspended
from a 20 foot balloon and being a high altitude weather balloon
appears in both. But Kirton is vague about the identity to
Reuters--it is possibly a weather balloon, and nothing about a
radar target. The FBI telegram then adds they were "further
advised" about it resembling a radar reflector, but Wright Field
disageed.

Neil seems to be trying to argue (but never clearly makes the
point) that this somehow demonstrates that the debris in Ramey's
office couldn't be a radar target. His unstated assumption is
that Wright Field had the debris in Ramey's office described to
them. But how could he know that? Maybe they had other debris
described to them, stuff that couldn't be broken or torn or
burned, like what Marcel described, and quite unlike a radar
target, debris that had been removed from view and was somewhere
else.

To just about everybody else on planet Earth, the debris in the
photos obviously is from a radar target. If Wright Field had
this foil, paper, sticks, and a rubber balloon debris described
to them, why would they disagree with the assessment that it was
a rawin weather balloon?

Or consider this. Maybe the FBI was just told all this to get
them off Ramey's back. The LA Herald-Express evening edition on
July 8 said that the FBI might be brought in to examine the
object if it was still there. But if Wright Field disagreed and
the debris was being shipped there, then there would be nothing
for the FBI to examine in Fort Worth.

Another way to put them off would be to say that FW would
_request_ that Wright Field share the results with the
Cincinatti FBI office but never promise them anything. As we now
know from the GAO's search of FBI files in 1994, there is no
evidence that the FBI was ever told anything afterwards.

Thus the FBI got told the usual radar target story with the
suggestion that maybe it was something else, was told there was
no opportunity for them to examine it (because it needed to be
shipped to Wright Field for further examination), and then got
cut completely out of the loop.


David Rudiak








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 17

                Re: The Windmills May Be Weakening - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:11:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:30:00 -0400
Subject: Re: The Windmills May Be Weakening - Lehmberg


>From: Gavin McLeod <gavin_mcleod@telus.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:14:32 -0700
>Subject: The Windmills May Be Weakening

>Hello Listers: I received an E-Mail request and noticed that the
>origin was the United States Congress. This is an edited message
>(to insure privacy for the individual). There is no indication
>of a spoofed address.

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Gavin McLeod [mailto:gavin@ufobc.ca]
>Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:16 PM
>Subject: RE: Request from Washington, D.C.

>I am very interested in your views on the UFO phenomenon
>especially as you work within the government structure and the
>official government view is that there is nothing to
>investigate.

>Gavin McLeod A.Sc.T.
>President
>UFO British Columbia

>-----

>Reply to My Message:

>I have been working very hard to get the info about UFO's out to
>select Members of Congress. They know as much as the average
>American knows, which isn't very much. But I am happy to say I
>have made it my business to inform several members at length and
>they are very interested. The problem is that there are so many
>more important (in their view) issues -- like the Iraq war, the
>budget, health care, etc. that the UFO subject takes the back
>seat.

These aren't good reasons; they're poor excuses. Moreover, it's
an aggregate poor excuse that begins to fall apart upon the most
minimal of cursory examinations.

The windmills remain, _explicably_, locked and frozen... more
now than they ever were.

I think it's laughable, in the first place, that these
compromised corporate lackeys and lapdogs would be all over the
UFO problem but for the *war* (an invented and _traditional_
adventure inspired by those who won't be doing any of the
fighting but who make millions off the insanity regardless); the
*budget* (a tediously duplicitous exercise in conflicted
justification to take money from where it will do the 'most'
good and put it where it will do the 'least' good); *health
care* (or facilitating the cross-purposed interests of
monstrously profitable drug cartels in order to torpedo
efficacious foods, minerals, and supplementations, not because
they're harmful but because they _work_ and the cartels can't
profit on them... [_managed_ illness is big business... *cures*
are an avoidable loss of revenue]). The "etcetera" is more of
the same, or a plethora of distractions provided by those that
have amassed inordinate amounts of power (at the expense of the
individual not giving informed consent) to keep things as they
are because they _like_ things as they are. Verily, these
persons are otherwise working too furiously to keep the giggle
factor high to be, in any manner or way, taken seriously as
brave and intrepid individuals sallying forth and searching for
truth.

Truly, UFOs take the "back seat" not because they are the least
important thing (laughable in its own right!) but because they
are the _most_ important thing fundamentally effecting
everything else (and not necessarily in a _bad_ way!). A list of
vetted ufological worthies numbering in the tens of tens knows
this too be true, a ufolgical history bears their contentions
out to the satisfaction of the minimally rational, and more and
more evidence is being amassed for this larger reality all the
time. Where are these "brave men of the legislature" in the face
of what that aforementioned "minimally rational" _knows_ is
there...?

>It is important for us all who know the truth to give the FACTS
>(and there are plenty, as you know) to anyone who will listen.

They've had 50 plus years to listen and all we have in place for
the trouble is the ardent mechanism for the denial of that which
*everyone* KNOWS is real! "FACTS" don't appear to make any
difference.

>I work for a very influential member of Congress and he's
>convinced and has been -- so that makes my employment here more
>pleasant than most.

I like to be able to derive a "warm and fuzzy" from this, but
the anti-cynical circuit breaker pops and I only suspect another
*loss-leader* for dashed hopes, discouraging disappointments,
and continuing intellectual betrayals from these, allegedly,
*elected*. I'm glad the writer's buoyed, presuming the writer's
veracity, but I'm flipping her boss a _righteous_ bird.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to Lehmberg@snowhill.com)
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 17

                  Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:16:46 -0400
Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
NOTICE.

by Omar Fowler, Founder and President of Phenomenon Research
Association, Derby, FSR Director and Consultant.

Foreword by Editor of FSR [Gordon Creighton]. [We heard talk
last year and rumours that the British media, including the BBC,
had received official instructions not to publish any reports
about black triangular UFOs, and in due course I received from a
long-established FSR reader, Larry Robson, of Stratford-upon-
Avon, the following report. As it is useful background
information, I am publishing the entire text of it as a prelude
to what our Triangle expert Omar Fowler has to say about this
matter!---

The Corner House
Shottery Village
Stratford-upon-Avon
Warwickshire
CV37 9HD

5(th)December 1999

Dear Gordon,

I have located the original article from which *CAUS* derived
their account. Source obviously is not reliable, but mention of
Nick Pope does presumably lend some status?

U.K. Press Told Not To Report Black Triangle UFOs. UFO Magazine
Says Media Got "D-Noticed" On Mystery Aircraft. [CNI News,
thanks Ian Reid for the following text, which ran in the British
magazine *UFO Reality*, issue No. 5.]

A top BBC executive let slip recently that there is a *D-Notice*
on media-reporting of the so-called *"Black Triangle"*.

The executive, who cannot be named, is the former producer of a
very popular BBC science programme. He told one of our team that
the black triangle "craft", first witnessed by hundreds in the
Hudson Valley region of the United States [(mid-1980's), then by
thousands in Belgium (1989-90) and more in Britain], has been
"heavily D-Noticed" by the Government. For this reason the BBC
will not be reporting on the enigmatic craft, no matter how many
witness reports they receive.

According to the former science programme producer, the reason
the Government has seen fit to slap a restrictive notice on
reporting of the Triangle is because -so far as the Government
has secretly informed the BBC- the craft is part of a new secret
military project, and as such must be protected under the
secrecy laws.

If this is the case, however, it surely begs the question: If
the so called Black Triangle is a secrety military aircraft,
then what is it doing hovering over residential areas and
frightening people half to death? Something somewhere simply
does not add up.

[CNI News adds: As noted by Nick Pope in the previous article,
it is very unlikely that the "Black Triangle" aircraft can be
explained as a secret military project. Its technical
capabilities and flight behaviour suggest it neither belongs to
any earthly government nor falls within the envelope of human
technology. Perhaps, then, the British media are actually being
warned away from reporting on a fairly obvious example of
"alien" craft intruding with impunity into British airspace.]
(Original file name: *CNI - Flying Triangles*. This file was
converted with TexToHTML - (c) Logic n.v.)

Subsequent articles appear at CAUS website:-

Flying Triangles Continue To Defy Identification. (*CAUS* thanks
Morgan Clements (UFOREPORTS@aol.com), World Wide UFO Reporting
Centre for this report.))

Massachusetts Triangles.
Brookfield, Mass. October 22, 1999.

"I was just walking home in the woods, behind where I live, from
scouting deer for the upcoming hunting season. It was getting
pretty dark, so I was in a hurry and got tired walking up the
final hill. I stopped to take a quick breather at 7.30 pm, when
all of a sudden one, then two, three, and then four Flying
Triangle craft went right by me in the bottom of the small
valley.

"They were totally silent and appeared to be sneaking through
the valley. They were triangular in shape and about 75 feet long
and as wide. There were no outside lights, but being so close to
them I could tell there was lighting inside. I was scared!

"All of a sudden three large noisy planes came screaming by as
if they were chasing the triangles. This is the second night
I've seen these craft. I thought I saw two craft the week
before, but they caught me off guard. I caught them going over
the ridge, but was not quite sure what I'd seen."

CAUS thanks George A. Filer (Majorstar@aol.com); Filer's
Files#43, 1999, for these reports:-

Florida Triangle With Blue Ionization Near Gulf Breeze Pensacola
Beach.

On October 9, 1999, the witnesses were rod fishing in Pensacola
Pass when a strangely configured craft came into view over Fort
Pickens State Park at an altitude of 200ft at a quarter of a
mile. The witnesses are an ex-USAF Security Policeman and a
retired US Army chopper pilot, presently a city police officer.

The UFO was travelling west over the Gulf of Mexico in a zig-zag
fashion at 7.57 pm. The craft flew slow, 100 to 300 knots,
sliding south and back to north in a continuing forward motion.
The craft moved in a Z-pattern, erratic with no sound. It seemed
to be suspended in flight at various positions. The craft was
silent with high intensity blue arcing lights that fluctuated
around the entire craft. These lights resembled electrical
charges coming off an alternator's brushes.

Further observation revealed three larger lights in a triangle
configuration dimly lit with variable output glowing blue to
pale yellow. The UFO appeared triangular in shape, but this
might be a deception as skin structure could not be seen. The FM
radio receiver suffered extreme static during the event.

The craft changed locations in split seconds covering distances
of approximately half a mile to over two miles instantaneously.
At least four times it hovered for 30 seconds with longest delay
of about a minute and a half over the southwestern boundary of
Pensacola Naval Air
Station.

One aircraft was launched from Sherman Field about three minutes
into event but, seemed unaware of the UFO and turned away in an
easterly direction. When the UFO was first observed a trailing
sound of a helicopter could be heard but never could be
observed. The UFO left the area after fifteen minutes at 8.12 pm
local time moving west along the coast.

One witness suffered from nausea for about 10 minutes but the
other was fine. "I have never seen a conventional craft operate
in this manner nor has my friend." Thanks to Peter Davenport,
UFO Reporting Centre.

Pilots Spot Huge Flying Triangle.

Initial reports indicate an apparently very large triangle was
seen by two commercial jets on October 26, 1999, over Western
US. The planes were 100 miles from each other, and the object
passed between them, and overtaking them, headed east.

Both pilots reported that the object was "huge". It was as big
as their fists held at arm's length. Thanks to: Peter B.
Davenport, Director National UFO Reporting Centre, PO Box 45623
University Station, Seattle, WA 98145 (director@ufocenter.com).

It has lately been reported in UFO circles, that a BBC executive
recently let slip the fact that a D-Notice has been placed on
the subject of "*Flying Triangle*" craft. This matter has been
the subject of previous rumours and speculation for a number of
years. However, before we all start screaming "Cover-up and
Censorship!" let us examine some of the information that has
come to hand in recent months.

As the result of sifting through UFO reports and information
from confidential sources, I have concluded that it is extremely
likely that Britain has been working, in great secrecy, on the
development of a triangular Stealth aircraft. Small black
triangular craft have been seen with accompanying conventional
aircraft on a number of occasions and may be controlled by a
'parent' craft.

The Following Report Is Taken From The Wigan Reporter, Published
In Mid-August 1996:

At 1.30 pm on Monday August 12, a number of people in the Wigan
area heard a very noisy helicopter overhead. On rushing outside
to look at the copter, they found that it was a *Chinook* twin
rotor machine flying extremely low. It was following a small
black matt triangular object about a quarter of a mile in front
of it. The *Chinook* was moving very slowly and was followed
about two minutes later by a *Jaguar* fighter that passed
overhead as low as the copter - with its undercarriage down."
(*In order to keep its speed as low as possible, no doubt!*)

A Confidential UFO Report That I Investigated In July 1997
Deepened The Mystery. The Incident Took Place Near Rugely,
Staffs., At Night, Near The Home Of A Mr. 'N'.

Mr. 'N' was working late at night (approx. 1 am) in his home,
which is situated near a heavily wooded area, when his attention
was attracted by a noise "similar to a high-revving two-stroke
engine" outside. He went outside in the darkness and vaguely
made out lights and the shape of an object hovering about 150
yards away and at a height of about 150ft.

Mr. 'N' went indoors and fetched his binoculars and he was then
able to make out the shape of a black helicopter in the vicinity
of the lights. It so happened that Mr. 'N' was a bit of an
electronics buff and had a night-vision-scope, with which he
returned a few minutes later. (*Type Tasco, 1(st) generation
type, with night scope and also infra-red beam emission*).

He then viewed the aircraft again and clearly saw the
helicopter, which was illuminated by the flashing stroke and
navigation lights. He described it as being similar to the "*Air
Wolf*" helicopter in the television series. He then switched on
the infra-red beam and immediately noticed that there was a
completely blacked-out, triangular, craft adjacent to the
helicopter. "I couldn't believe my eyes" he commented.

The triangle, which was a similar size to the helicopter,
reflected no light from the strobe/navigation lights and
appeared to have no visible means of propulsion or support in
the hovering mode. The witnesses stated that there was no
apparent noise coming from the triangular craft, although the
helicopter may have drowned this out.

Almost instantaneously, the helicopter switched on alight beam
towards the witness (blinding his equipment), while at the same
time moving away "at an incredible rate of knots. It disappeared
like a rocket.".

Mr. 'N' tried to follow it with his night-viewer, then suddenly
realised that it was more important to study the triangular
craft. He turned back to where it had been hovering, but it was
gone! (*Mr. 'N' was sure that he had witnessed a secret aircraft
and was petrified that he might be the subject of investigation
if he related the incident to anyone. He eventually only
mentioned it to two other close friends.*)

A Further Report Reached Me From "Skywatch International" At
Spilsby, Lincs. This Concerned A Sighting By A Witness On The
Night Of The 17(th) September, 1998. This Witness Said:

"I finished work at Louth at 10 pm and headed out on the B1502.
It was 10.25 pm and I was about 4 miles past Ulceby Cross, when
I saw something in the starry night sky that I thought looked a
little odd. I saw what I believed to be two *Tornado* aircraft
in company with a craft that, because of its lights, appeared to
be of a triangle nature. On each point it had a bright green
glow, rather than a green created by a light bulb.

The triangle completed flight manoeuvres that I had never seen
before. As the two aircraft approached my car, the left aircraft
tried to get ahead; the two aircraft passed over my car I looked
up through my sunroof and noticed that the triangular craft was
about three-quarters the size of the *Tornado* aircraft. I live
near RAF Coningsby and I am familiar with *Tornado* aircraft."

Finally, On 15(th) August, 1997, I Received Some Information
From A Confidant Who Revealed Details Of A Surprising
Conversation At A Recent Aeronautical Show:

Source: "In absolute confidence please. I deal with aviation
products, I do pilot supplies, satellite navigation equipment, I
retail various products. We did an exhibition at Christmas, at
'XXXXXX'. This chappie came to see me and we are talking about
aircraft. I gather that he is a civilian, in his sixties and ex-
military, and he commented that he had flown a lot of aircraft,
all sorts of aircraft. We were talking about aircraft and I
sprang the question on him that I do with all sorts of people,
'*do you believe in UFOs?*'

Source: "He said to me -'what do you mean?", I replied that we
had heard of people that have had quite a few sightings of the
Flying Triangle. 'Yes', he said 'Yes, I make them.' I said "How
do you mean 'I make them'? "Well, let me put it this way' he
said, 'we are actually making triangular-shaped craft in this
country, but we are also aware of what we would call extra-
terrestrial craft flying over this country.' He repeated, when
questioned, 'We are aware that there are triangular craft flying
over this country, that are not of this world!'

"At this, I moved him away from the other customers, as this was
a private conversation. I said to him, 'do you mind me asking
you one question, 'where are you located?' I said. 'I can't tell
you that' he said. I said, 'I'll ask you one other question.
What is the chance of me visiting your factory?

'Absolutely not,' he said 'We're not Top Secret, we're levels
above Top Secret.' 'We have materials now, in this country, with
which we could manufacture *stealth* aircraft that would be
virtually undetectable.'

Source: 'Undetectable by what means, I don't know, visual, night
vision, radar, I don't know.' He complained to me that quite
frankly, 'there are too many so-and-sos in London sitting on
their backsides, who are not releasing funds to us, but we have
the technology to lead the world in *Stealth* aircraft'. Then he
said, 'our aircraft are telemetrically controlled?' (*This would
account for the widely reported 'parent' aircraft*).

Source: 'That is 100% the truth, but please don't mention my
name. He seemed a very sincere fellow. I can't disclose his name
for obvious reasons, but yes, that's what I was told.'"

In conclusion, we must accept that the placing of a "D-Notice"
on the subject of Flying Triangles could well have taken place
to guard the secret development of a British *Stealth* aircraft
and not as the censorship of information on extra-terrestrial
FTs. After all, which is the more important from the Government
point of view?

(-and what could possibly have been more logical? A marvellous
way for the Government to confuse the issue and strengthen the
cover-up over the Alien Triangles! G.C.)


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Oct > Oct 17

                          UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:42:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:49:06 -0400
Subject: UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies


Source: Bahrain Tribune (See pictures at site)

http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?ArticleId=9630&CategoryId=0

10-15-2003

UFO Seen In Bahrain Skies

People from around the country have reported seeing an
Unidentified Flying Object in the skies of Bahrain emitting
strange lights for about a minute at around 11pm on Friday.

Bahraini Mohammed Jaffer Al Hajer was sitting with six of his
friends outside his home in Qurrayah village near Budaiya when
they noticed the UFO in the distant skies. Al Hajer caught the
strange object on his digital video camera as the lights
appeared twice once when the UFO emitted a bright yellow light
and the second time when it split into two before disappearing.

We first noticed the strange light appear to the left of the
Batelco tower in the village, he said. We saw it again just
above the tower when I reached for my camera and began to video
tape it. Al Hajer videotaped the object for about 40 seconds
before it disappeared. The pictures were not clear because of
the high speed of the object and the low resolution of the
camera, according to Al Hajer. People in Manama also reported
seeing the UFO at the same time and placed it between Manama and
Muharraq, in the same vicinity as Al Hajer claimed.

However, sources at Bahrain International Airport tower told the
Tribune that the radars there did not register any abnormal
activity during that time.

The lights emanating from the UFO as it split into two, as
recorded by Al Hajer. The red blur is the Batelco tower light.








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   Oct > Oct 17

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:13:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:53:48 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:26:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:34:33 +0200
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:22:56 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

><snip>

>>>I have obtained a considerable amount of information and facts
>>>about these targets. As more factual data emerges it is
>>>becomming very clear that what is seen in the Fort Worth photos
>>>is beginning to look less and less like a Rawin Target.

>>Andrew,

>>Where are you trying to drive us? To discover that is was flying
>>saucer?

>>Excellent to add confusion and ridicule to the Roswell case.

I agree 100% with Gildas. That's all this nonsense does.

>Please reference my response to David for details. There is no
>confusion, simply facts that show the drawing David is
>referencing is a red herring and cannot be trusted.

There are no facts showing anything of the sort, just nitpicking
over insignificant details. His claim is pure fantasy. He can't
refute what I'm saying about the drawing (it actually specifies
white strips), so now he has to claim it's phony. He is also
claiming the photos I've referred to of other rawins showing the
white strips have been likewise "doctored." This is utter
madness.

>David even admits this himself. He now says that the ML307C/AP
>orignal drawing was cleverly altered by the AF.

This was obvious sarcasm on my part. I was poking fun at his
"red herring" argument, but he didn't get it.

>In my resonse to David I
>have shown that there are no white stripes on the rawin target,
>therefore the panels in the photos are not part of a rawin
>target.

He has never shown anything of the sort. He has misinterpreted
instructions about gluing and taping and tried to claim they
forbid white strips, which is completely untrue.  Furthermore,
the white strips are also clearly drawn in several places on the
schematic, as I have pointed out to him several times. He can't
refute this, so his fall-back is the "red herring" doctored
document nonsense.

But I'm the deluded one, having been suckered by clever Air
Force alterations of documents and photos to make me think they
were there when they weren't. (Except now he thinks I really do
think the drawing is phony, instead of realizing I was joking.)

It escapes him that his logic is also inconsistent. If the
document really were altered to make us think the strips were
there, then wouldn't the AF criminal masterminds also alter the
gluing/taping instructions which he claims prove they weren't
there?

With these various bizarre contortions of logic and magical
thinking, he claims that there were no white strips on rawin
targets, even though there obviously were. And if there were no
white strips, then the photos are not of a radar target. This
may be the craziest argument I have ever encountered, maybe even
topping pelicans.

>Is the debris from a downed UFO? I can't say 100%. I can say
>one thing, there is alot of material in the photos that doesn't
>belong to a rawin target. That much I can see.

It's pretty clear that Andrew LeVoie and Neil Morris are on some
sort of personal crusade, and facts, logic, and common sense
will not deter them. Broken sticks with dried glue beads plus
torn foil and paper under the harsh lighting of a camera flash
have been inflated into a whole menagerie of supposedly
"anomalous" objects which exist purely in their imaginations.


David Rudiak








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   Oct > Oct 18

                         UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:24:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:45:44 -0400
Subject: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 21-23

UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy.
by Fr. Thomas Kulp (Wisconsin).

[There are still a surprisingly large number of people who seem
to take all UFO reports with complete equanimity and, as it
were, refuse to see anything "nasty" anywhere in it. Then, on
the other hand, there are others, like Subdeacon Paul Inglesby
and Cyril Marystone and Father Thomas Kulp, the author of this
article, who take the opposite view and hold that every single
case, without any exception whatsoever, is something straight
out of Satan's bag.

And, finally, there are also a few of us who think that the
truth of the matter probably lies somewhere in the middle, and
that by the very nature of things, there are bound to be some
"*Goodies*" (i.e. the ANGELIC FORCES) somewhere around.

We shall have to go on probing all possible aspects of the
question until we begin to feel that we can see a bit more
clearly. (For example, while I feel strongly as anyone that
there really are absolutely demonic forces active in and among
mankind, there are sudden new hints, new angles, and so on,
which suggest that possibly even the "Little Greys", so much
abhorred by so many of us so far, might not be the real Demonic
Enemies after all! But more of this later!)

Father Thomas Kulp is a priest of the Orthodox Church, and lives
in the State of Wisconsin, USA, with his wife and seven
children. Paul Inglesby, MA, (Oxon.) and a former Lt. Commander
in the Royal Navy, is a Sub-Deacon, also in the Orthodox Church.

As Fr. Kulp declares, many UFO researchers have noted the
similarities that seem to exist between the historic
descriptions of demonic attack and the current accounts of
"alien abductions", and he concludes that this is no
coincidence.

The copyrighted article which we give below was originally in
the U.S. publication FATE, for April 1996, and appears now in
FSR by the permission and courtesy of both Father Kulp and Mr.
Craig Miller, Associate Editor of FATE MAGAZINE, P.O. Box 64383,
St. Paul, MN 55164-0303, U.S.A. -Editor, FSR]

Since the term "flying saucer" was coined in the 1940s, the UFO
phenomenon has intrigued and mystified serious investigators and
has profoundly influenced the imaginative content of popular
culture. Of particular interest are the numerous reported
encounters with aliens. There can no longer be any doubt that
something significant is happening. On the whole, the reported
incidents can neither be regarded as hoaxes, nor as some bizarre
form of collective hallucination.

Must we concloude, then, as many have, that extraterrestrial
beings are visiting Earth? This is, in fact, the message that
has been communicated by the aliens themselves on various
occasions, a message often cloaked in New Age terminology. A
common motif is that Earth is on the verge of a dire catastrophe
from which the aliens, as representatives of a more highly
evolved race, can save us.

This is the stuff of science fiction. It is, of course,
comforting to believe that we are not alone, that there are
beings somewhere out there older and wiser than ourselves, ready
and willing to save us from our own folly. Perhaps we should
cast aside the apocalyptic prophecies of doom and prepare
ourselves for a new age of universal peace and brotherhood. Does
this scenario seem too good to be true? As the saying goes, it
probably is.

Indeed, as Whitley Strieber writes concerning his own
experiences, "The beings I was encountering weren't the wise and
benevolent creatures that films like Close Encounters might have
led one to expect. They were absolutely devastating_."

Strieber relates how he awoke in the middle of the night and
sensed a presence in his room. "I felt an absolutely
indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on Earth to be there,
and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, and couldn't get
away. I lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever
was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and
sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be."

In the end, however, Strieber rejected the possibility that
these beings could really be demons. He did so, I suspect, not
because of the evidence, but rather because the concept of the
demonic simply does not fit into his worldview. In fact, this
prejudice against an objective personification of evil is
widespread today, even while the idea of angels is enjoying a
renewed popularity.

Nevertheless, if we are indeed being visited by extraterrestrial
beings, no unified and coherent hypothesis has yet been offered
to explain the multifarious worldwide manifestations of alien
contact.

For a while, it appeared that perhaps the visitors were engaged
in little more than a routine geological survey of Earth. Beings
have been observed taking samples of rocks and other objects
many times over a period spanning decades.

Then suddenly we discover that the aliens are not simply taking
rock samples. They are abducting humans and conducting
scientific tests, taking samples of blood and semen, even
conducting breeding experiments between humans and aliens. The
reports come pouring in from around the world, becoming more and
more bizarre.

Running through the data of purported encounters, however, is a
definite thread of the irrational and absurd. Often the observed
behaviour of the beings makes no apparent sense, or is downright
silly.

Consider an incident that occurred near Buenos Aires in 1968. A
teenaged boy was approached by two *seemingly* ordinary men
except for their unblinking gaze and their transparent legs.
They told him, "*You are going to know the world.*"

They promised to take him on a flying saucer, which they showed
him, and then gave him an ordinary envelope and told him to dip
it in a puddle. When the boy did so, this message appeared in a
very juvenile script: "*You are going to know the world. F.
Saucer.*"

It can be hypothesized that the purpose of the innate absurdity
and sheer overwhelming quality of UFO encounters is mental
confusion and a realignment of human consciousness. In other
words, there is a conscious agency involved that is attempting
to subtly alter and control human thought patterns and beliefs.

If this is so, then the UFOs, even if they possess a real
physical dimension, (which has not so far been convincingly
demonstrated), are at least in part a psychic manifestation.

According to Strieber, "*Precognition, apparent telepathy, out-
 of-the-body perceptions, and even physical levitation, are
commonplace side-effects of contact with the visitors.*" Indeed,
experiences of alien contact seem to involve altered states of
consciousness, an almost dreamlike trance state despite the
apparent reality of the events described.

Moreover, the psychic repercussions upon those whom I can only
describe as victims are often devastating, leading to confusion,
obsession, disruption of life patterns, and even -in extreme
cases- suicide. Can beings responsible for so much mental and
spiritual anguish be truly characterized as benevolent or even
morally neutral?

EVIL ALIENS. Let's consider several cases that seem to suggest a
non-physical dimension to the UFO phenomenon. In 1955, near
Riverside, California, children observed a disk-shaped object
spinning overhead. Subsequently, there appeared a "recurring
series of spectral-like shapes_. They were semi-transparent."

In 1963, in Kent, England, four teenagers watch a glowing
ovalloid descend into a wood. Suddenly, "A shambling human-
 sized figure with no head but with bat-like wings appeared and
moved toward them_."

In 1952, a UFO was sighted landing in Flatwoods, West Virginia,
"and when the witnesses surged forward to see what had happened,
a monstrous spectral-like figure with a blood-red face and
glowing greenish-orange eyes floated down the hill toward the by
now terrified observers." In past centuries, these apparitions
would have been unequivocally labelled as demonic. Now, in our
supposedly more enlightened age, we fail to see the obvious.

In 1967, in Surrey, England, a young couple stopped their car in
an isolated spot and observed a hideous creature through the
window, accompanied by an odour as of burning meat or a stink
bomb. It is interesting that a bad egg smell (hydrogen sulphide)
has been reported in numerous cases, considering that such an
odour has long been associated with demonic manifestations.

More dramatic is a case that occurred on October 25, 1973, in
Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. The main victim of what
appears to have been a classic case of demonic infestation was a
young man named Steven Pulaski, but also present was a law
officer and, later on that night, a group of UFO investigators.

The affair began when a bright red ball was seen hovering over a
field. As it descended, its colour changed to bright white.
Next, two strange bestial creatures appeared. Someone fired a
gun at the monsters and they were apparently hit, but with no
result.

Throughout the night, these elusive creatures continued making
their presence known. Witnesses glimpsed the creatures and heard
strange sounds coming from the woods. At one point, a strong
sulphur odour was detected by the observers.

It was then that Steven himself began behaving like a wild
beast, as one possessed, having gone totally berserk. It was
during this fugue that he recited prophecies of doom in a
mocking tone of voice, accompanied by derisive laughter.

I would suggest that in instances such as this one, the demonic
element responsible for the UFO phenomenon is showing its true
face. At the very least, there is a sinister, dark side to these
preternatural experiences that must be seriously considered.

Yet if we are indeed dealing with predominantly psychic
manifestations, we must be very cautious of accepting as
objective reality the outward appearances.

We should be aware, too, of traditional signs of demonic
presence. For example, UFO occupants have been observed to avoid
light, as in Hopkinsville, Kentucky, in 1955, where the beings
always approached from the dark side of the house and not when
outside lights were on.

In other cases, alien beings accost victims at crossroads, which
are traditionally associated with an aura of danger and the
demonic. Crosses were often placed at crossroads for this very
reason. In general, the fear and confusion so often infused into
the minds of victims is a sign of demonic presence.

DEMONIC ORIGINS. At this point, a word about the origin and
nature of demons should be useful. According to Christian
traditions, based on works by Milton and others, God created
orders of so-called bodiless powers, including angels and
archangels, before creating humans.

These active, intelligent spirits were intended to serve and
glorify God. Like all rational beings, these invisible, angelic
spirits possessed free will. It transpired that one of them,
Lucifer, rebelled against God. Blinded by pride, he thought to
exalt himself above the throne of God.

Then, having won over one third of the angelic beings to his
side, he entered into a disastrous war against Archangel Michael
and the other angels, who had remained loyal to God.

As a result, Lucifer and his confederates were cast out of
Heaven. Henceforth, Lucifer, now known as Satan, or the Devil,
became the leader of a vast army of fallen angels known as
demons. No longer capable of choosing good, these fallen angels
have become irrevocably evil, eternally at war against God.

Christian lore also holds that God created people to take the
place of the fallen spirits. We were destined to achieve blessed
immortality in union with God.

Thus Satan and his demons, consumed with jealousy and bitterness
toward the human race, tempted our First Parents in the Garden
of Eden. Believing the deception of the "serpent," Adam and Eve
fell from their original blessed state and were cast out of the
Garden.

Ever since, the demons have been engaged in continual warfare
against the human race, ever striving to drag us down to their
own level, causing us to stray from the path of truth that alone
leads to eternal salvation.

Humans were also created with free will. God does not permit
Satan to coerce us. The Devil can have no power over us unless
we ourselves give it, willingly accepting Satan's deceptions and
thus rejecting God's Law.

Therefore, the demons have become masters of deception, capable
of assuming any form, even appearing, as St. Paul assures us, as
"Angels of light."*

Nor should the apparent mingling of physical and psychic
manifestations in the UFO phenomenon surprise us. As one noted
spiritual authority observes, "Demons also have 'physical
bodies,' although the 'matter' in them is of such subtlety that
it cannot be perceived by men unless their spiritual 'doors of
perception' are opened, whether with God's will as in the case
of holy men or against it (as in the case of sorcerers and
mediums.")

There is not a single UFO incident on record that cannot be
explained as a demonic deception or apparition.

What is not always clear is the motivating purpose behind some
of these bizarre manifestations. For example, I must admit that
the whole breeding experiment scenario baffles me, except that
these incidents do confuse and profoundly frighten the victims,
thereby opening the human mind a bit more to the intrusion of
the demonic.

What does seem clear, from a spiritual perspective, is that the
ultimate purpose of the UFO phenomenon is to help prepare the
collective consciousness of the human race for the coming of
Antichrist as foretold in the Bible.

All signs point to the fact that the end of human history is at
hand. The final stage is to be the universal reign of the
Antichrist, who will create a new world order and a false one-
 world religion. Those who through demonic deception will
worship the Antichrist will be lost, while all others will be
persecuted.

A prophetic leader, Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, wrotte in the
last century, "*The miracles of Antichrist will be chiefly
manifested in the aerial real* where Satan chiefly has his
dominion*. The signs will act most of all on the sense of sight,
charming and deceiving. Again, the Antichrist will even make
fire to come down out of Heaven upon the Earth in the sight of
men."

I submit that the demonic explanation for the UFO phenomenon is
inherently no less likely than any other explanation that has
been offered so far.

If we are open-minded enough to at least accept the possibility
of demons, then a great deal that is presently obscure becomes
understandable.

There is no lack of evidence and testimony regarding the reality
of demons in Christian spiritual literature during the past two
millenia. We should be most foolish to discard it all as mere
antiquated relics of the past, while accepting as gospel the
myriad New Age teachings that have permeated our society over
recent decades.

Now, more than ever, it is imperative that we be wise and sober,
discerning the spirits to make sure that they are truly of God,
refusing to be led astray by the deceptive illusions of the Evil
One.

NOTE BY EDITOR, FSR.
*See my article, What St. Paul is actually reported to have said,
in FSR 42/2.


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Oct > Oct 18

             Curious Utterances Of Vatican's Monsignor Balducci

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:28:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:49:07 -0400
Subject: Curious Utterances Of Vatican's Monsignor Balducci


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/4, Winter 2000, pp. 24-25

The Curious Utterances of the Vatican's Monsignor Corrado
Balducci.
by Gordon Creighton

[The asterisk (*) indicates emphasis or italics.]

This important Catholic prelate was already well known for his
previous statement, some time ago, that he believed in the
presence of alien intelligences interacting with planet Earth.

What is probably much less well known however is the fact that
he is the Vatican's senior Exorcist and Demonologist - and this
makes some of his latest remarks and observations surprising -
 to say the very least!

At the *Second Ancona Ufological Congress, on April 17, 2000,
the theme for discussion was "ALIEN CIVILIZATION: BETWEEN DOUBT
AND REASON", and he gave an extensive interview there,
expressing his opinions very clearly.

He stated emphatically that *of course* the Aliens and their
vessels do quite definitely exist.  On a number of occasions he
had already voiced the highly intelligent view that, in between
Man and Angels, there absolutely *must* also exist a
considerable gamut - a great HIERARCHY of various other grades
or levels of beings - and these might well be the "Aliens" now
under discussion.  From the theological point of view, he
emphasised, there could be no doubt about *that*.

[Let us not forget either that in the Old Testament and other
Jewish religious texts the talk is not merely of "Angels"
(*Malakheem*, but also of *other* categories of celestial beings
- such as *Cherubeem* and *Serapheem*.  With my limited
knowledge of Hebrew I have so far managed to find out very
little indeed about these or any other categories of celestial
beings in the old Hebrew Pantheon, and if anyone can help me on
my way to learn more I would indeed be most grateful.  I suspect
that the old scholars and sages may have recognised even more
than just these three grades of "Celestials".  G.C.]

As regards acceptance of the general idea of life elsewhere in
the Cosmos, the Monsignor pointed out that the saintly Italian
priest Padre Pio, who was famous for his *stigmata* and for his
miraculous healing of the sick, and who died only a few years
ago, had always taken the existence of extraterrestrials for
granted.

And, long before him, there had been - to quote just a few
examples - such clerics as Cardinal Niccolo Cusano (1401-1464)
who accepted the "alien" and "E.T." concepts and wrote about
them.  And also there had been the early Jesuit astronomer
Father Angelo Secchi (1818-1899) who wrote: "*It is absurd to
think that the other worlds around us are uninhabited
deserts*".

And of course there had also been Giordano Bruno who had died at
the stake for harbouring such beliefs.

When asked whether his investigation of the UFO Phenomenon was
*purely personal* or had been based on official Vatican
promptings, Monsignor Balducci - (not surprisingly) - hastened
to emphasise that it all had been purely personal and that there
was nothing "official" about it [which can hardly be true, as we
at FSR have heard, for years past, that the Vatican possesses an
active department devoted to the UFO Phenomenon. Indeed - how
could it possibly be *otherwise*!  G.C.

As already mentioned, this high-ranking Vatican dignitary,
Monsignor Balducci, is himself recognized as the Vatican's No.
One Demonologist.  And yet it seems that there is not a single
word in anything that he has ever said or written to indicate
any knowledge whatsover of such matters as alien rape;
crossbreeding; hybridization; removal of sperm and ova;
implants, or the widespread harassment of humans by UFO
entities, widespread mutilations of terrestrial animals, and
ghastly human mutilations too.

The good Monsignor cannot possibly be unaware of these aspects
of the matter.  So I conclude that we are obliged to attribute
scant value to his statements, which look like a piece of wild
window-dressing.  *Or worse*.

*He has blandly told us that any other intelligences are more or
less certain to be higher and purer and more evolved than we are
- bizarre views from a professional exorcist surely*!

One interesting assertion by Monsignor relates to the Fatima
Apparitions of 1917 and other "Marian Phenomena".  He sharply
rejects the view (held by quite a lot of "ufologists" - all
Catholics - in both Spain and Portugal) that the Marian
Appearances might themselves be part of the entire UFO
Phenomenon.  "*Most certainly not*!" he says.  "*Our Lady can do
whatever she wants and she has no need for UFOs!*"

Responding to other questions about the chief dangers today
threatening mankind, Monsignor Balducci made it clear that he
sees the principal danger as a nuclear war against the West,
some time before the year 2030 - an attack on the United States,
by either the Chinese or the Arabs. [On which I agree with him
100%. -G.C.]

The second greatest danger, he agreed, was the impact on the
Earth of a large asteroid or meteorite, which most astronomers
will tell you quite frankly is probably rather over-due on
Earth's time-scale.

As for the effect of these statements, I feel obliged to say
that the discrepancy between the Monsignor's utterances and the
perceived realities of our situation as we know it after half a
century of study, can only be very unfortunate, for he is
helping to lull the public into a passive and trance-like
acceptance of the Demons who are currently our Lords and
Masters, just as all of our media are already zealously doing.

So it looks to me like a very dishonest picture that we are
being given, and it seems evident that the Vatican has no more
intention than any Government has to come clean, and to tell the
truth about the enormous problems which loom for our species.

ON WHOSE SIDE THEN IS BALDUCCI? Does all this not indicate that,
within the Christian edifice of the Vatican there might lurk
agents of another Force possessed of very, very different
motivation and objectives?  There are numerous disturbing
indications that such might well be the case.  One of these days
I may decide to give an account of the amazing experiences of
one of my friends which, alas, point in that direction.  The
details which I have given above are taken from Monsignor
Balducci's statement, released earlier this summer [2000],
about the Ancona Congress.


ADDENDUM
I am indebted to Mr. Neil Cunningham of Edinburgh and to Paola
Harris for the following further information that he has been
authorised to pass to us by Dr. Steven Greer MD, Director of
CSETI.

Together with the researcher/journalist Paola Harris and his own
cameraman Peter Sorenson, Dr. Steven Greer was invited to meet
Monsignor Balducci in his home in Rome on September 23(rd), the
purpose being for the Monsignor to give an interview and to
discuss with Dr. Greer the latter's plans for a major worldwide
disclosure project regarding the UFO situation.

This ambitious project will include the filming of large numbers
of military witnesses, intelligence officials, commercial
pilots, scientists, and even astronauts (both American and
Soviet).

These plans, which are already being put into operation will
include such witnesses from Italy as well as all the other main
countries involved. Dr. Greer had just come to Italy from
Britain where he has filmed various people including myself.

Enlarging further on his views, Monsignor Balducci made some
further altogether sensible remarks to the party, such as:

"*Of course* there must be *something else* between us and the
Angels. And if there are such other beings, they are surely more
evolved than we are.*"  "We are" says Balducci, "at the bottom
of the ladder for our ability to '*see good but do evil*'.  It
is illogical and a bit arrogant to believe that we are the only
beings in God's creation.  *Since all of Christianity is based
on witness-testimony, we must realize how important testimony
is*.  It would be a tragedy if we began to be suspicious of all
the people who report that they have experienced something
unusual, like seeing craft in the sky, because there *are* some
very credible witnesses who have seen these and who have come
forward".

The only criticism that I personally (G.C.) have every voiced
about Dr. Steven Greer has been because I often felt that he too
seemed to be largely unaware of the *dark side* of the UFO
Phenomenon, so I am delighted to see that this time he did not
fail to put to Monsignor Balducci the all-important question of
"whether the work of the Devil was included in the UFO
Phenomenon?"  But I was astounded once again to see Monsignor
Balducci's reply to him which was:

"The Devil does not need UFOs to manifest.  Nor are most
witnesses suffering from illusions, as they have no reason to
invent such things". He concluded by saying that it was both
logical and desirable that "they" -the "Others"- should exist,
since all that God creates gives glory to God the Creator".

Well - I have to say that I still find it all highly
unsatisfactory. *Monsignor Balducci has totally failed to face
up to the cardinal and central problem - namely the fact that we
have such abundant evidence that so much of the UFO activity is
evil and malignant by any standards that we can conceive of.  He
seems to think that, just because - as we can see - there are
aliens who have marvellous technology, they must *ipso facto*
also all be more advanced than we are, morally and spiritually!*

*What balderdash from Balducci!  Didn't both Nazi Germany and
Commie Russia have plenty of first-rate scientists - and
"technology" to match! G.C.


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Oct > Oct 18

              Confirmation Of Important U.S. Naval UFO Sighting

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:30:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:52:21 -0400
Subject: Confirmation Of Important U.S. Naval UFO Sighting


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[Warning: includes testimony (speculation) on Space Shuttle
videos showing alleged UFO and SDI activity - TWC]

Flying Saucer Review [FSR], Vol. 46/2, Summer 2001, pp. 17-20
[FSR is published in England]

Confirmation of an Important U.S. Naval [UFO] Sighting.

by Gordon Creighton.

Five years ago (in FSR 40/3, autumn 1995) we gave Mr. Chester C.
Grusinski's account of the day when, in 1958, serving aboard the
American aircraft carrier *USS Franklin D. Roosevelt*, he and
many other U.S. Navy men observed the close approach of a huge
'cigar-shaped' UFO during their cruise off the American Naval
Base at Guantanamo on the island of Cuba. Shapes of beings - not
human - were seen inside the UFO. [An asterisk (*) indicates
italics]

Since the night Mr. Gusinski, now of Clinton Township, Michigan,
has never ceased in his efforts to find other witnesses of that
episode for - as he said in his report - there were *at least 25
other men on the flight deck* with him who *must have seen it*.

As Grusinski told us, CIA men immediately came aboard and a
massive cover-up started, with all crewmen who had knowledge of
the sighting or who talked about it being immediately
transferred out of the *USS Franklin D. Roosevelt* and allocated
to other ships or jobs in the Navy.

According to an interesting and lengthy report by John Baugham
now published in a journal named *The Broad Top Bulletin*, dated
December 26, 2000, (evidently this is an old comrades'
association journal for those who served on the American
carriers) one such witness who has come forward to confirm
Grusinski's statements is Harry A. Jordan, now of Omaha NE, who
served aboard the *U.S.S. F.D.R.* from 1962 to 1965.

Throughout the years since 1958, Grusinski, as he has already
told us, continued his research, and had discovered that the
*F.D.R.* had been involved in a second UFO incident in 1956, and
in yet further incidents in the 1960s.

The *F.D.R.* was finally decommissioned in 1977. Later, via the
Freedom of Information Act, Grusinski secured a copy of the
ship's deck logs for 1958 and 1959. And, he says, he found that
"*a lot of information was blackened out*".

Here is Harry Jordan's continuation of the story, as given in
Lucius Farish's Newsclipping service, in a letter from him to
Grusinski in August last. Jordan it seems, just like Grusinski,
had been searching ever since 1958 to contact other ex-crew
members who had witnessed the same incident, and he had found
Grusinski' name on a posting on a Canadian website.

Jordan's statement to Grusinski reads:- "In late 1963, aboard
the *F.D.R.*, during my mid-watch on radar, off the coast of
Sardinia in the Mediterranean, I detected a very large UFO. *I
was subsequently told in no uncertain terms to keep my mouth
shut for 20 years.*

"In summer 1998 I gave the Senate Intelligence Committee an
affidavit concerning that experience. During that particular
cruise there were several photographers aboard to document the
NATO Naval Operations in which we were engaged, and they were
present on the ship on the night in question."

(The complete text of Jordan's statement can be downloaded by
going to <
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/witnesses/jordan.html >).

>From 1961 to 1965 Jordan served in the Operations Intelligence
Division on three other U.S. warships as an expert on display,
analysis, reporting, and recording of radar, radio and
electronic emission data, and for this he had received extensive
training at the Naval Station, Newport, Rhode Island. So,
clearly he *was a specialist.*

Whilst aboard the *F.D.R.* he had served on two cruises in the
Mediterranean, between 1962 and 1964. After discharge from
active duty he then worked as an instructor at Jones Point Naval
Reserve, Alexandria, VA [Virginia], on the use of navigational
equipment particular to radar intelligence, and thus he was an
expert in this field too. He had served as a recognition expert
on detecting surface or air objects at as far away as 300 miles.
He had trained both enlisted men and naval officers.


JORDAN'S TESTIMONY BEFORE A U.S. SENATE UFO HEARING (SUMMER
1998).

Here is Jordan's first-hand account at the Hearing:- "Late one
night in the fall of 1963, while operating off the coast of
Sardinia at approximately 0200 hrs. Zulu Time, I was standing
mid-watch on a SPA-8 repeater and height-finding equipment. My
JFF box was enabled, and in the process of challenging an aerial
contact approaching the ship from a bearing of 012 degrees
relative to our course.

"The aerial contact was detected at 600 miles according to the
calibration rings on my scope. I made several adjustments to the
calibration settings because I didn't believe I could detect
such a contact at that distance. The aerial contact was at a
height of 80,000 ft., then dropped in about 20 seconds to 65,000
ft. where the contact then hovered for about 10 minutes.

"During this period the watch-officer awoke the Division
Commander and informed him of our situation. U.S. Naval Task
Forces operating in the Mediterranean in those days were being
subjected to frequent fly-overs by Russian *Bear* aircraft with
electronic warfare capability. It was my job to stay alert for
such a scenario.

"The Division Commander came into CIC, observed the radar
returns, expedited his own ECM scan of the contact, and then
informed the orderly standing watch at the Captain's stateroom.
The Captain was apprised of the situation, ordered a course
change into the wind, increased the ship's speed and gave order
to launch aircraft. During this time I was continuing to observe
the contact, and watched our *Phantom F4Bs* once they had
attained sufficient altitude. The *Phantoms* went to after-
burners vectoring to a course straight for the *bogey* on my
scope.

"After a period of about 15-20 minutes the *F4Bs* were within
200 miles of the *bogey*, due north of our course. They turned
on their conical scan radar, and the *bogey* disappeared from my
scope. The pilots did not detect any contact on their own
scopes, and were turned by the Air Ops C.O. and headed back to
the ship. The Captain had kept the ship on a heading into the
wind during this entire operation so that aircraft could be
launched or recovered at will. The *Phantoms* returned to the
ship and were recovered.

About five minutes after the recovery of the last aircraft, and
during the process of turning the ship back to our original
course, the contact "winked back on" again! *This time it closed
in from a distance of 600 miles from the ship to right above us,
in about one minute! The bogey* was travelling at around 3,600
miles an hour at an altitude of 30,000 ft. I never saw any heat
signature.

"Someone in C.I.C. yelled out: "*Damn it - what the hell is
that!*" I coudln't determine who it was that made that comment.
Lookouts on the port and starboard lookout wings of the conning
tower could not see anything above the ship with their
binoculars. *The situation was bizarre, and the watch personnel
looked scared but calm*.

"Watch-logs are always kept, particularly when a critical
situation is under way. "General Quarter" practice drills are
another matter - *but this wasn't a practice drill. The Captain
had not called "General Quarters".

"I recall vividly when it was first determined how unusual the
situation had been. My Division C.O. (Commander Gibson, USN)
asked me what, if anything, I had put in my log. He said to me
"*Jordan, this never happened*". (I was reminded of that comment
later when I first saw the movie "*RED OCTOBER*"). I replied to
him: "*Yes, Sir*".

"*I never mentioned anything to fellow-sailors, or to anyone
else, until years after my Honourable Discharge from the Navy*.
I was Honourably Discharged in December 1967, at Jones Point
Naval Training Centre in Alexandria, Virginia.

"On watch that night were a plotter on the DRT, one on the VG,
myself on the radarscope, and the watch-officer. *It was my
distinct impression from hearing the airmen aboard during "chow-
time" that they were confused about why the heck they would have
such an unscheduled launch and not be told what had been going
on that night. It was their duty to arm aircraft, etc. To me it
was obvious that they had been 'kept in the dark' on this one
operation. I myself never said anything to them (the airmen)
about what had happened that night.*

"I myself have stood lookout watch by night and by day during my
period of active duty. I have logged well over 1,000 hours of
operating radar equipment and standing watch during my active
duty with the Sixth Fleet. What I experienced that night will
never be forgotten. And what I have experienced since my
discharge from active duty has become ever more fascinating as
the years have progressed." (End of quotation).


MORE TESTIMONY

But that was not quite the end, for Jordan had some other
interesting comments for the Senators at the hearing in summer
1998, as quoted here:-

"In 1985 I met Dr. John Kasher, a Physics professor at the
University of Nebraska, Omaha. He was a consultant at Lawrence
Livermore Labs in California and is at present a summer
consultant on plasma physics at Huntsville for NASA. He is
currently the State Director for the MUFON Network of Nebraska.
He and I have personally investigated over 50 cases related to
UFOs. These cases involve people from age 5 to the 70s.

"We have video tapes of private interviews, physical trace
cases, and lab reports. Some of these cases involved events that
occurred on the ground simultaneously with STS-NASA missions.
There are uncut, unenhanced video tapes produced by live-real-
time NASA select 6 camera shots taken aboard the Space-Shuttle.

"*At present* the cameras aboard the Shuttle are monitored, the
video signals are delayed several seconds, and sometimes
minutes, before being fed into public video-feed networks.
Immediately after the STS-48 mission UFO flap in which Dr.
Kasher and I were involved, NASA began to delay the live-feed.

"Their premise for altering the video coverage of each mission
was that they didn't want the world to be privy to the medical
condition of the astronauts. This is pure hogwash, as NEVER has
the medical condition of the astronauts been public knowledge
through video monitoring to public channels. We have a copy of
the original NASA directive which went out from NASA to all
ground facilities on the day after STS-48 - the day of the UFO
flap.

"The UFOs which currently are flying on station when the Shuttle
is up are being fired upon by high performance aircraft using
state-of-the-art particle beam weapons. The very character of a
particle-beam does not need an atmosphere to be seen, it imparts
its own coherence upon the vacuum of space. We have video tapes
of STS-missions as recent as STS-80 during the month of March
1997, wherein one can clearly see these beams coming up from the
Earth through the cloud-cover below the Space Shuttle.

"What concerns us most here, from our personal field experience,
is that out of all our private interviews (50) with
eyewitnesses, not one instance of a negative or a sordid nature
has been told to us. [But isn't 50 only a very small total?
G.C.] Virtually all close encounters on the ground have been
very passive, bizarre, and extraordinary to ordinary people -
 whatever "ordinary" means these days is another matter.

"It is with great concern for our fellow-Americans and citizens
of the world at large that we question the reasons why UFOs are
being fired upon. What the Federal Government of the United
States of America knows about UFOs is not being shared. I
question the current status of this posture and the reasoning
behind it. These matters might well be beyond the knowledge of
the Senate, Congress, and perhaps even of the President of the
United States.

"If public hearing were held regarding these scenarios there
would be some red faces at the Pentagon and NASA regarding the
UFO issue and the reality of their occupants. Many decent law-
abiding Americans have had real experience, and are prepared to
come forward to share proofs. The truth needs to be brought
forward without further hesitation". (End of quotations.)


NOTE BY EDITOR OF FSR.

I feel absolutely sure that everyone who reads this statement
will agree that *unquestionably* Chester Grusinski and Harry
Jordan have given us an astonishing - and no doubt, so far as it
goes - a remarkably accurate picture of what happened on certain
occasions when an American aircraft carrier was seemingly
visited and inspected at very close quarters by a large UFO.

On the other hand, what I think most of us will strongly doubt
is whether, *ALL* UFO influences are so benign - as Mr. Jordan
appears to think - and whether or not one can say that the
authorities of the United States are doing the wrong thing in
continuing - as they apparently *are* doing - to keep the entire
problem so much "under wraps", and also to shoot at UFOs with
particle beams.

As FSR readers will already know, my own opinion on this prickly
question is that, while we now have a very great deal of
evidence of *seeming* benevolence (or also of seeming
*unconcern*) on the part of many of the so-called "*Aliens*", we
appear to have an even larger volume of evidence that points in
a different direction. *My own firm conclusion therefore is that
it would be premature to come to hard and firm theories in one
direction or the other. The Government may indeed be utterly
right in their policy of silence*. As for the constant howls of
these who claim that the Governments ought to "come clean with
all the facts" tomorrow morning, I doubt whether many would be
found to be exultant over the findings if they got them"!

As I have emphasised many times, one of the principal reasons
for the alleged current 'apathy' of the British public towards
matters ufological is that *in truth the situation is possibly
controlled by three 'don't wants': firstly, we can assume that
the aliens (or at any rate a very large part of them, however
numerous their species may be) clearly don't want us to know
what they are up to here. Secondly, the governments - whether or
not they are 'under alien control' - also don't want us to know
what the aliens are up to. And, thirdly, it is patently clear
that the vast majority of humans themselves also do not want to
know what the aliens are up to here (and I admit that personally
I think it highly likely that, with their powerful telepathic
force, the aliens _themselves_ are the direct cause of this
apathy and disinterest - in other words, a very smart policy!).

If the public really did want to know the truth about UFOs, then
FSR's readership would be enormous, and not be - as it is at
present - heading fast towards vanishing point.

And one sees little likelihood of a change in this situation.

[Credit and thanks to Lucius Farish's UFO Newsclipping Service
No. 379. G.C. February 2001]


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Oct > Oct 18

              Two Letters From FSR Consultant Salvador Freixedo

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:31:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:57:09 -0400
Subject: Two Letters From FSR Consultant Salvador Freixedo


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/3, Autumn 2001, pp. 22 and 24

http://www.fsreview.net
fsreview@hotmail.com

[An asterisk (*) indicates italics - TWC]


Two Important Letters From FSR Consultant Salvador Freixedo
(Spain).

(Translated from Spanish. G.C.)

Salvador Freixedo and Magdalena del Amo Freixedo
32454 Cenlle-La Quinta
Province of Orense
N.W. Spain
Tel/Fax: 988-404107
    Mob: 908-888887

To Editor Gordon Creighton
Flying Saucer Review
January 2001.

Dear Friend,

I have just received the latest FSR, 45/4 (so interesting as
always, even though J. Randles says the opposite) and it has
reminded me once again of the cyclopean task that you folk over
there are performing through hell and high water and despite all
the attempts to silence you!

Here in Spain we still occasionally see letters in the review
ENIGMAS asking them why they stopped published the Spanish
edition of FSR, and when they are going to start it up again?
 But I don't think anything will be done about it, because they
are different people in control there now.  [It never got beyond
No. 1, and you don't need to ask *why*! G.C.]

As for the scene here, the inexplicable killings of animals,
especially of sheep, are still occurring here from time to time
- mostly in the north of this country.  In our particular
Province, Orense, and not very far from here, there have also
been some cases, and they were all attributed to a species of
feline animal that according to one eyewitness - *"was a bit
strange because its front legs were shorter"*.  And then I
recalled that years ago in the U.S.A. there was also talk of
strange felines with shorter front legs which nobody ever
managed to kill despite great organised hunt-drives against
them, because they all vanished mysteriously.  *"Nihil novum sub
sole"*.

In my opinion all this is part of the primary essence of
Ufology.  Quite definitely all these "ultradimensional" animals
are intimately related to the UFO Phenomenon and are part of its
infinite pattern of events.  But I get the impression that it is
all specially programmed and "laid on" for the purpose of
occupying our time and distracting attention.

Long ago the UFO Phenomenon has already passed from the purely
physical to the paraphysical and the metaphysical.  But
"metaphysical" I mean the mental, the psychological, the
sociological, the spiritual - and even the mystical.  The
sightings, landings, explosions, contacts, abductions, and the
whole infinite gamut of the phenomenon to which many
investigators are devoting so much time become at this stage
nothing more than a search for *"proofs" that the Phenomenon is
real.*  But proofs for convincing *whom?* I'm not interested in
convincing the scientists, because they are unconvincible.  Any
proofs that we might be able to offer them do not fall within
the parameters wherein *their* science operates.  So therefore
they reject them *a priori.*  (Quite apart from the fact that,
if they *were* to admit our proofs, they would be overthrowing
all their own postulates and theories and their academic chairs
and official posts would be dangerously shaken!)  For them the
Universe is *three-dimensional*, and there are no other planes
of existence beyond these known to them through their formulas,
their microscopes, or their telescopes.  So - *God bless them*.
 Let us leave them in peace, and may they also leave us in
peace. And let us not waste time in trying to convince them of
anything.

As for ourselves we have long been convinced that the Phenomenon
is *real* enough, although we don't know very much about what it
*is.*  So what we have to do is to see what its possible
transcendent significance is for *us*, and in what way it can
aid us and in what way it can harm us.

I have to admit that I owe everything to the UFO Phenomenon,
because it was *that* which helped me to awaken from the dream
in which I was living, largely owing to the religious fanaticism
that had been inculcated in me from my earliest childhood.
 Today, thanks to the UFO Phenomenon, I see the Universe, and my
position in it, with completely different eyes from the way in
which I saw it when I was a Jesuit priest.

At present (admitting that the manipulation which these non-
human intelligences exercise over mankind at the individual
level and especially at a global level is enormous).  I am still
interested in knowing on the one hand the degree of unity and
contact that exists between the great authorities of our world
(i.e. those authorities that operate in the shadows) and the
"E.T."s, and, on the other hand, also in knowing what might be
the relationship, or role, that these intelligences might play
in connection with the mysterious "Beyond", *after death*.
 Because (leaving aside the infantile heavens and hells of
Christian dogma) when we make that great leap which is nearing
for both you and me, I have the impression that we will be
entering the levels in which some of those ETs appear to be
operating.

Such, my dear friend, is the direction in which my
investigations and reflections on the UFO Phenomenon are at
present inclining.  And although I recognize that the study of
cases still has its importance, I personally am chasing no
lights - simply because the mere presence of the phenomenon has
told me all the fundamentals of the situation that I was
interested in knowing, and if I start listening to their
"messages" I expose myself to being deceived.  We became
convinced long ago that many of them are mighty liars.  With
their intelligence - very superior to ours - they are capable of
making us believe that black is white, just as has happened to
so many contactees.

I see that Don Worley is succeeding at last in getting his
interesting ideas known.

I am told that in the U.S.A. they are going to publish the
translation of my book *Defendamos de los dioses (Let us defend
ourselves against the gods*), and also my *Israel, Pueblo
Contactado (Israel, a Contactee People*.)  Well, let us hope so!

My wife Magdalena now has a daily programme on the local TV in
which she discusses and comments on the UFO reports - the
unpleasant reports from this luckless planet possessed by some
species of evil spirits".*

A vigorous *"abrazo"* from your friend.

SALVADOR FREIXEDO

*  These "evil spirits* are those same ones that in Christianity
and in all the other religions have always been called
*"demons"*.

P.S. November 4.  Dear friend, just as I was about to post this,
I received your letter of October 29.  I was under the
impression that we *had* indeed already sent you a copy of
Magdalena's new book *ABDUCCIONES*.  I will very shortly send
you a copy, and also a copy of another new book of mine -
 *VIDENTES, VISIONARIOS, Y VIVIDORES*.


NOTE BY EDITOR.

*"Sal"* Freixedo, a Spaniard from the North-West (Galicia), was
a member of the Jesuit Order for 30 years.  He came to spend a
day with us in England in 1972, and has been one of our most
valued and most experienced Consultants since 1989.  Having been
a Jesuit (I have met and known many members of the Order and
there was never one who was not very highly educated) his
erudition is enormous, and I would judge that of all the Spanish
and Latin American writers and researchers on "Ufology" today he
is the one with the widest experience and most probably the
wisest and the one with the deepest perception regarding the
true nature of the so-called "UFO Phenomenon".

He is now retired and lives in his home province of Orense, with
his equally talented and famous wife Magdalena del Amo, a much-
travelled and widely experienced journalist and researcher.
 Some years ago she wrote a long report on her investigation in
Puerto Rico on the *"chupacabras"* and the UFO situation on that
island, and if possible I still hope to be able to translate it
in full one day.  More recently (1998) she has brought out an
excellent book, *ABDUCCIONES (ABDUCTIONS)*, published by the
Freixedos' own company, Bell Book, ISBN 84-923786-2-X.  In the
same year this company also brought out her husband's excellent
*VIDENTES, VISIONARIOS, AND VIVIDORES*, ISBN 84-923786-3-8.  (I
suppose one might translate the title as *"SEERS, VISIONARIES,
AND 'SMART OPERATORS'*.) He makes it very clear who are genuine
seers and who are not.)  I have now received both these books
from Sal.

Sal Freixedo's years as a Jesuit were spent mainly in the
countries of Central America (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Mexico,
Guatemala, Venezuela).

When resident in Cuba (this was under the right-wing dictator
Fulgencio Batista, 1954-59, before the latter's overthrow by the
Communist tyrant Fidel Castro), the Rev. Father Salvador
Freixedo was already a thorn in the side of many, and had caused
an uproar with his first book, *FORTY CASES OF SOCIAL INJUSTICE:
AN EXAMINATION OF CONSCIENCE FOR HEEDLESS CHRISTIANS*.  As a
result, Batista threw him out of Cuba.  (I give the title of
this and of most of his other books as they would read in
English, but I emphasise that, so far as I know, *no
translations of any of them yet exist*.)  In 1969, in Puerto
Rico, came his second book, *MY CHURCH IS ASLEEP*, which led to
another rumpus, and he was finally induced to leave the Jesuit
Order.

He then went to Venezuela, where it seems that the local
"Christian- Socialist" Party (as he says, neither "christian"
nor "socialist") got him put into prison.  Later the
neighbouring Dominican Republic placed an official ban on his
entering that country.  The English titles of his next books (I
omit the Spanish titles) would be more or less as follows:

1) *EXTRATERRESTRIALS AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS*. 2) *WHEN THE UFOS
LAND, DOGMAS FLY OUT OF THE WINDOW*. 3) *THE DIABOLICAL
UNCONSCIOUS*. 4) *LOVE, SEX, COURTSHIP, MARRIAGE, CHILDREN: FIVE
REALITIES IN EVOLUTION*. 5) *RELIGION - BETWEEN PARAPSYCHOLOGY
AND UFOS*. 6) *LET US DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST THE GODS* (I.E.
"gods" with a small g). 7) *ISRAEL - A "CONTACTEE" PEOPLE*. 8)
*THE HUMAN FARM*. 9) *THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL THREAT*.

Years ago I started a translation of his most important book,
*LET US DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST THE GODS* (i.e. "gods" with a
small g.  Not "GODS"), but I was obliged to abandon it owing to
the vast pressure of work for FSR.  Years later, another of our
excellent Spanish-American Consultants, Scott Corrales (a
Spanish-speaker from birth) did manage to do a complete English
translation of it, but the usual and predictable problems
continued to crop up, and it still failed to get printed,
because I think the American publisher - a small firm - went
bankrupt or had some other sort of "difficulties".  (How well we
know it all!)

I believe that Scott Corrales also did a full translation of
*ISRAEL - A CONTACTEE PEOPLE*.  But - you've guessed it!  There
were some other "difficulties" there too, and I don't think it
ever saw the light of day.

Every one of these fine books by Sal was valuable, and it is sad
that English-speakers and readers never got to know of them.  It
certainly wasn't *"all by accident"*.

However Sal seems to think that these two may soon be out in
English! If so, there is nobody more competent to see to it than
Scott Corrales who, as Director of his own recently established
INSTITUTE OF HISPANIC UFOLOGY, at 104 Pleasant Street, Suite
101, Bradford, PA 16701-1255, should be regarded, like Sal
Freixedo himself, as one of the top "UFO experts" in the
Spanish-speaking world.

SCOTT CORRALES' telephone number: 814-362-2122; email: <
lomis1@juno.com > and <lomis1@yahoo.com >. -G.C.


Second Letter From Salvador Freixedo

In a second letter dated February 1st 2001, Salvador Freixedo
comments on my article about the statements of Monsignor
Balducci of the Vatican, and says (my translation):-

"The whole position of the Catholic Church and of Christianity
in general is ambivalent, and aimed at compromise.  Because if
they admit everything about the UFO phenomenon that they *will
have to* admit, their fundamental dogmas will all fall to the
ground.  But the Christian theologians - and particularly the
Roman Catholic ones - have always been experts at dancing on a
tightrope.  Pure tightropers...

"At the beginning of the 20th century, Pope Leo XIII (lived
1810-1903) issued instructions that at the end of the Mass all
priests were to kneel at the altar and pronounce a special
prayer 'against the malignant spirits that inhabit the Earth'.
 This leaves us with the impression that Leo had received some
special revelation regarding the growing activities of those
'malignant spirits'.

"In Christianity these malign spirits are identified with the
Devil. But in Ufology I think that we can identify them as being
the occupants of many of the UFOs.  And it is my belief that
daily we can see the influence of these entities growing every
more powerful among mankind. In addition to the fact that, apart
from that, it also seems that there is someone who is interested
in upsetting the elements of nature.  Indeed we are truly living
through times of great change.  And with the corrupt rulers
which we impose upon ourselves (-influenced by the malignant
spirits?) one can't foresee a very good future for mankind.

A heart hug to you all,

Salvador Freixedo


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com









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   Oct > Oct 18

                A Gigantic 'Cigar' Over the Atlantic In 1963

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:34:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:00:36 -0400
Subject: A Gigantic 'Cigar' Over the Atlantic In 1963


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/4, Winter 2001, pp. 17-20.
http://www.fsreview.net

FRAMES warning...

[Words marked with "'" are italicized. - TWC]


A Gigantic "Cigar" Over the Atlantic in 1963. [Reprint from FSR
Vol. 27, No. 3 (Nov. 1981). In view of the extraordinary
similarity to the last case, I feel I really must republish this
earlier one -Ed.]


In 1980 we received a letter from a lady who had recently become
a reader of FSR, stating that she would like to talk with
someone from the 'Review' and give us a confidential account of
a strange experience that she had had many years before. It had
been terrifying at the time and had left a most vivid impression
in her memory. Having no knowledge of UFOs then, she had no
clue as to what she might have seen. It was only after the
chance purchase of a few books, and the discovery of FSR, that
she had realized the possible nature of her experience.

The lady is from one of the countries of Western Europe that are
members of NATO. She is now married to an Englishman, and it so
happens that her home is not far from mine. For reasons which
will be evident, she has asked that on no account should her
name and address, or her nationality at birth, be divulged. I
have interviewed her twice, and FSR Director R.H. Bryan Winder
also heard the first account which she gave. Her statements are
supported by a lengthy and detailed written version and a
sketch. For reasons of economy I have reduced her story to more
compact proportions. The gist of it is as follows:-

"The events which I now describe took place in the first or
second week of May 1963.

"I was at the time working for NATO as an English language
secretary, and based in Paris. On the day in question I was one
of a party of 50 NATO personnel who were en route to Canada for
the NATO Ministerial Meetings in Ottawa. Our plane, an Air
Canada DC-8, carried what seemed to be the usual crew, and two
stewardesses, though I had the impression that the flight was
under military or NATO control.

"We took off from Orly Airport, Paris, some time after 10.00
A.m., and we were told that the flight to Ottawa would take
about seven hours. As there were only 50 of us, the plane was
relatively empty. I took a window seat on the port side (left)
near the wing. The other two seats in my row remained empty
throughout the flight. As NATO personnel we were all of course
well known to each other, and very much a 'family group'.

"The weather was beautiful, and the Captain announced that we
would fly at 36,000 (or maybe 38,000 - I do not recall clearly)
feet. After lunch had been served, I sat enjoying the view of
the vast expanse of sky above the clouds. The windows of the
DC-8 were very large, the largest I seem to recall having seen
on an aircraft, and came down quite low beside the passenger.

"I was just reaching down to take a book from my hold-all, and
was astonished to glimpse below the 'plane something dark and
absolutely tremendous that stood out in vivid contrast to the
brightness all around. I could not believe my eyes. I pressed
close to the window in unbelief and there, almost beneath the
DC-8, was a gigantic dark grey 'torpedo'. It seemed menacing
and frightening, and I had the impression that it was
stationary. It was utterly unlike anything that I had ever seen
in my whole life. It looked as though made of steel. No
portholes or windows were visible. No wings or projections.
 Nothing but the long perfect torpedo form, with its bullet-
shaped head, and the rear end which was cut off sharply and
squarely. (1) The monster - and I emphasise that it was this
terrifying size that impressed me - was well below us. I
thought maybe 2,000 metres or so below us, but of course I had
no way of being able to gauge this or to estimate the size of
the thing.

"I looked down again quickly at the monster, and saw that a
swathe of tiny clouds were beginning to pass over it, though it
remained visible through them for a few seconds before being
lost to my sight.

"I sat there in utter amazement that such a craft could exist.
Why, I thought, had I never heard, in all my wife, of the
existence of anything like this! I felt stunned, and dazed,
contemplating my utter ignorance that such things could be, and
that I could know nothing whatever about them.

"I glanced around the cabin. Most of my fellow-passengers were
reading, or dozing, or asleep. Only from the rear came sounds
of animation from a group who were playing bridge.

"I sat there feeling utterly frustrated, both because of my
inability to explain to myself what it was that I had seen, and
because apparently not one of the others had seen it. At any
rate, not one gave any sign of having done so, (2) and I felt
too baffled to ask, and too scared lest I might prove to be the
only witness in which case they would simply laugh at me. I sat
back and closed my eyes, feeling that my mind had been
completely blown. I resolved that, when back in Paris, I would
talk about it to one of the NATO experts on nuclear weapons, a
man whom I knew well, and with whom I had often chattered on all
sorts of subjects, such as earthquakes, problems of energy, and
so on. (But when I next saw him, and had the opportunity to
tell him about my 'monster cigar', I just could not bring myself
to raise the subject. My courage failed me. I did not want to
be laughed at. The whole thing seemed too incredible to be
taken seriously.)

"As for the rest of the NATO party, I never dared to mention it
to any of them, out of fear of being thought completely mad.
 But I made a private resolution that I would go on trying to
find out what it could have been. (Little did I realize then
that it would take seventeen years.)

"I had of course heard the occasional story about 'flying
saucers,' but I always thought that the name meant that these
were just little things, no bigger than a real saucer. I had no
idea whatever that craft of all shapes and sizes were being
seen, all over the world, and that they were all being given the
blanket name of 'flying saucers.'

"To be truthful, I had already heard one story about a 'cigar',
said to be some 15 or 20 metres long, seen by people a few years
earlier at Santa Maria (3) in the Azores Islands. 'Fifteen to
twenty metres' was nothing in comparison with what I had just
seen. And in any case, everyone had said that the thing seen
over the Azores was simply a Russian secret device.

"It was only about two years ago that, while browsing through a
secondhand-bookshop, I found, and bought, two or three books on
UFOs. It came as an immense shock to me when I found that what I
had seen, came under the general term of 'flying saucers', and
that other people had also seen giant 'cigars' or 'torpedoes' in
other parts of the world, and at other times.

"But there is a second part to my story which was far more
terrifying than the sight of the huge 'torpedo,' and which I
found it equally impossible to explain to myself. I must
emphasise that whether or not it was in any way related to the
'torpedo' I cannot say, as I do not have sufficient technical
knowledge. Yet I have the feeling that it might be unwise to
exclude this part from my account, so I give it here now for the
experts to pronounce upon:-

"After my glimpse of the monster 'torpedo,' I sat there brooding
on it for half an hour or so, as I recall, when suddenly the DC-
8 started to shudder and pitch up and down violently, nosing
steeply upwards, then steeply downwards, and this went on for a
long, long time. I might explain that I had often encountered
turbulence and 'air-pockets' when travelling by aeroplane, but
it had never been anything remotely like this. This was as
though we were in a gigantic lift that was shooting up and down
madly. And, as though that was not enough, there now came a
succession of reports like cannon-fire or thunder, filling the
cabin. Meanwhile the plane continued to shudder and 'buck'
violently, and each time it came down I had the sensation that
it was going to break in half.

"Throughout all this, everybody in the passengers' cabin sat
there petrified, absolutely silent, white-faced.

"After a while of this, I felt such panic that I rushed up front
in search of a stewardess, and shouting ''What's going on? I'm
scared!'' I lifted a curtain in front of what seemed to be a
sleeping-berth, and found a stewardess lying on the bed there,
her hands covering her eyes as though she were weeping. She
gave no response to my shouts, and all around there was total
silence still, apart from the sound of the engines, overlaid by
the repeated 'claps of thunder' and the continued bucking up and
down of the plane.

"I went back to my seat, and suddenly found myself bathed in
perspiration. Every pore in my body seemed to be hard at work.
 And yet I noticed that the light dress I was wearing was still
completely dry.

"A second time, I ran forward to the stewardesses' quarters but
there was nobody there. I hammered on the door leading to the
cockpit, and shouted again, asking what was happening, as I was
scared to death. The other stewardess came out and looked at me
as though I were an idiot, and for a while said nothing. Then,
calmly, she announced 'Ladies and Gentlemen, do not be alarmed:
the cabin is being depressurized.' Shortly afterwards, the
Captain was heard to make the same announcement.

"I should like very much to know whether all that I have just
described, about the violent behaviour of the aircraft and the
loud reports, is explicable as being due to the process of
'depressurization' and, if so, what are the circumstances that
are likely to have made it necessary for such alarming and
drastic steps to be taken? Is this sort of thing usual and
normal - as the calm behaviour of the second-mentioned
stewardess seemed to indicate? And why, in that case, had the
other stewardess - as it seemed - been weeping? Was this simply
because she, like all the rest of us, found the turbulence just
a bit too alarming? 'Or is it possible that she was still
suffering from shock after seeing the gigantic 'torpedo'? It
certainly would be interesting to know the answers to these
questions.

"If an expert were to say that the behaviour of the aircraft was
definitely not 'normal,' and not explicable as due to
depressurization, then it is possible that such a situation
could have been brought about by either the action or the close
approach of a UFO? (4) (Either the same thing that I had seen -
 if it was indeed a UFO - or some other UFO that was also active
over the North Atlantic on that same day?)

"Whether or not this frightening behaviour by the DC-8 was in
any way connected with what I had seen is something that I have
so far found no way of knowing. Nevertheless, even if this
second part of my story is found fully explicable and
discountable, I am still anxious that my account of the great
'torpedo' shall find a place in the records.

"Did anyone else aboard the DC-8 see the 'torpedo'? That is the
key question. Given the position of the 'torpedo' in relation
to the passenger cabin, only a passenger looking out and
downwards at that precise moment would have caught a brief
glimpse of the object and, as I have said, I found no evidence
that any other passenger did see it.

"As for the plane's crew, there was only the one stewardess who
seemed upset. What is certain is that the pilots up in the
nacelle certainly would have had abundant time in which to see
the 'cigar,' as it cut slightly diagonally across their route
from their port side and well below them. No explanation or
comment whatsoever about the 'cigar' was given by the Captain or
any other crew member, and no statement was made by the
authorities when we landed in Canada.

"It must however be borne in mind that, although the machine was
to all appearances an ordinary DC-8 civilian passenger carrier,
the party on board consisted entirely of NATO personnel, and
NATO is a 'military' organization. We were flying under NATO
auspices and in that sense we were under military control. In
such circumstances it would not be surprising if the cockpit
crew and the stewardesses were less forthcoming about a UFO than
perhaps they might have been, were it an ordinary passenger
flight."


NOTES AND REFERENCES by GORDON CREIGHTON.

1. The documentary records of Ufology contain numerous
eyewitness reports of what are alleged to have been "tubular",
or "cigar-shaped," or "torpedo-shaped" UFOs, often of enormous
size, and there are also photographs. I recall that several of
these photographs reveal "bullet-shaped noses" and "squarely
cut-off rear ends." Quite a large proportion of such craft have
allegedly been seen over the sea, indeed in some cases entering
or leaving the sea. Nobody has written better on this aspect of
Ufology than our friend Toni Ribera of Spain, and it is a great
pity that his books have not yet been translated into English,
for one of them deals at great length with these reports of
"flying submarines."

The most impressive account of such a huge "cigar" craft that I
have read so far was contained in a letter written in 1954 to
Australian UFO researcher Edgar Jarrold by a lady named Mrs.
A.M. King of Nairobi, Kenya. She said:

"I left Mombassa (Kenya) at the end of June 1947, on the 'SS
Llandovery Castle' en route to Cape Town, and, as we were going
through the Straits of Madagascar about the beginning of July, I
was on deck with another lady passenger at approximately 11.00pm
when we noticed a particularly bright star. It was travelling
very fast and approached the ship. Suddenly a searchlight
appeared which flashed a strong beam of light on the water
within fifty yards of the ship. It descended, its beam
shortening and becoming brighter as it neared the water, and the
next instant there was no more light, but an object appeared,
apparently made of steel, and shaped like a cigar cut at the
rear end. It remained in the air about twenty feet above the
sea, parallel with the 'Llandovery Castle', and travelling in
the same direction.

"Gaining a little in speed, after a second or two the whole
shape disappeared without a sound, from the rear end issuing
fierce flames which shot out to about half the length of the
object. It appeared that there must be something like a huge
furnace inside the thing, but we still could hear no noise from
the flames. No windows could be seen, only a band of metal
around the entire thing which, if it had been a complete cigar
shape, would have been centrally situated.

"The object was very large, about four times the length of the
'Llandovery Castle', and at a rough guess, four times as high.
We had a wonderful view, but in a few seconds it had
disappeared. No light was seen forward on it as it left; it
just vanished soundlessly in the darkness. For a while we
thought we were the only ones on deck at that late hour, but,
walking to the prow of the ship, we saw there one of the ship's
officers with a few passengers; the entire party had seen the
same thing. Whether or not it is recorded in the ship's log, I
know not."

If Mrs. King's estimate is right, the 'monster torpedo' must
have been 'at least 1,600 feet long'.

A similar type of vast 'cigar', seemingly metallic, estimated to
be at least 800 metres (2,600 ft.) long, allegedly came down to
a height of only 2,000 metres in broad daylight one summer's day
in 1961 over the Russian city of Voronezh, and many thousands
who saw it panicked. When it departed, it stood straight up on
its tail, let out a tongue of flame said by some witnesses to be
as long as itself, and vanished straight up into the sky.
 ('Amazing News from Russia', in FSR Vol. 8, No. 6 (Nov./ Dec.,
1962)

An Italian named Luciano Galli has claimed (FSR Vol 8, No. 5,
September / October, 1962) that he was taken up in a small disc
to a huge tubular machine which he thought was "at least 600
metres long" and which had :one end cut like the end of a
cigar." Taken inside it, he claimed that he found it contained
hundreds of beings and scores of discs.

Probably the best known account of a "cigar-shaped craft" with a
"cut-off rear" is that described in Adamski's second book,
'Aboard the Space-ships'. One almost trembles at the thought of
even mentioning Adamski, for to do so nowadays is considered
very bad form in ufological circles "because everybody 'knows'
he was a fraud." In fact some of his alleged photos of such
craft do show precisely such long, dark, zeppelin-like forms
with "cut-off rear."

The emotional heat generated by the slightest mention of George
Adamski is curious because, if one troubles to reflect upon it,
one will see that, since the date of his experiences and his
photographs, which would have been principally around the period
1952-53, dozens and dozens of other folk, all over our planet,
in various countries and civilizations, have claimed to have
seen - and sometimes to have photographed - in these 29 years
since 1952, precisely the same types of "Mexican Hat discs" and
large "flying cigars" as Adamski claimed to have seen and to
have photographed. I notice too that, all over the world,
alleged UFO percipients have continued to tell "contactee
stories" that are far, far "wilder" and far more fantastic than
anything that Adamski ever said, and yet on the whole, these
percipients seem to be listened to with considerable respect by
many researchers. Almost never do they seem to be greeted with
the sort of obloquy that was heaped upon Adamski.

The fact of the matter, I suspect, is that we have all got used
to the UFO contactee syndrome now. We even 'expect' their
accounts to be wildly absurd and illogical and full of lies and
contradictions - as they usually are. Adamski is all old hat
and tame stuff now. But he hasn't stopped being "a liar and a
hoaxer". Others who tell the same stories go scot-free.

2. This mention of people "not showing any sign of having seen
anything" reminds me of an interesting report which I received a
few years ago. A middle-aged English lady, well known to old
friends of mine (and in background totally uninterested and
uninformed as regards UFOs) came to see me one day and described
an extraordinary experience that she had. She had been on a
holiday trip to the Scilly Isles (lying off the south western
tip of England) one fine summer's day about nine or ten years
previously. In the evening she boarded a small steamer to
return to the Mainland. The ship was filled with holiday-makers
and the decks were crowded. She was standing right against the
rail, enjoying the beautiful scene and the last of the day when,
out of the sea, right beside the steamer, a large, round,
shining silvery "saucer" came up swiftly and silently and shot
into the sky. She said it passed so close to her that she could
see the droplets of water swirling off its gleaming surface.
 All around and behind her were the mass of other tourists,
pressed close together, and she said they could not have failed
to see it too. But, so she told me, not a soul amid that crowd
gave the faintest indication by word or gesture that they had
perceived anything out of the ordinary. As she remarked,
laughingly: "'They were all British They kept a stiff upper
lip'".

(Admittedly however there do seem frequent to be cases where
some individuals "see" while others do not, and one is obliged
to recognize that, for all we know, the former category might
conceivably involve a minority of people who are 'clairvoyant' -
 maybe only temporarily or intermittently. This idea takes us
instantly into the field of Parapsychology, which is too vast
and too mine-bestrewn for further discussion in the present
article. But it is something that we absolutely must always
keep in mind whenever considering any UFO sightings whatsoever -
 including, of course the report from the lady secretary who was
with NATO.)

3. At this point I feel the lady's memory may be playing
tricks. For - unless of course there were 'two' quite separate
sightings of "flying cigars" over Santa Maria in the Azores -
 the happening to which she here refers is entered in our
records as having been on July 9, 1965, and therefore two years
'after' her own experience.

The "cigar" or "torpedo" which we have in our documentation
passed over the Island of Santa Maria in the Azores on that date
at an estimated height of 20,000ft. and promptly stopped all the
electric clocks at the Santa Maria Airport, one report said for
twenty minutes, others said for forty-five minutes. (See FSR,
Vol. 11, No. 5, p. 24, and Vol. 12, No. 5, p. 32).

4. Readers will recall the recent experience of the U.S. Army
Reserve officer Captain (now Lieut. Colonel) Lawrence Coyne,
whose helicopter was on October 18, 1973 put by a UFO into a
powered descent of 500 feet per minutes and then 2,500 feet per
minute, only to be bounced up again into the sky at the rate of
1,000 feet per minute (see Jennie Zeidman's 'UFO-Helicopter
Close Encounter Over Ohio' in FSR Vol. 22, No. 4, 1976).


ADDITIONAL NOTE.

Finally, since this NATO lady's account relates to something
huge seen over the North Atlantic Ocean, and possibly not too
far from Canada, these notes should not be ended without a
reminder of one of the most famous cases of all time, that of
Captain James Howard who, on June 29, 1954, when piloting his
B.O.A.C. Stratocruiser 'Centaurus' on a flight from London to
Canada, flew on a parallel course for eighteen minutes with a
vast unknown object which he estimated to be "about the size of
an ocean liner." Captain Howard's crew of eleven and a dozen of
his fifty-one passengers also saw it, and one of the opinions
expressed was that it was "as big as the 'Queen Mary'" (one of
Britain's two huge pre-war Cunard liners).

This particular UFO does not seem to have been described by
anyone as a "cigar" or a "torpedo". It was in fact apparently
changing shape in a puzzling fashion, but seems mainly to have
looked delta-shaped or "like a telephone mouth-cum-earpiece
lying on its back", as indicated in Captain Howard's sketches.
 It appeared to be accompanied by a group of much smaller
objects which finally seemed to enter it before it vanished from
sight. (See 'Mystery over Labrador', by Leonard Cramp, in FSR,
Vol. 1, No. 1 (Spring 1955).


EDITOR'S NOTE

The case of the Stratocruiser, 'Centaurus' is given in slightly
greater detail in my editorial leader on pages 1 and 2 of this
issue (i.e. FSR 27/3).

My memory of Captain Howard's narrative is that 'most' of the
passengers saw the UFOs (larger craft and smaller ones).
Stewardess Daphne Walker came on to the flight-deck to ask the
skipper "what it was out there", as all the passengers wanted to
know!

A few years ago, through a mutual friend, I secured the home
address of Stewardess Daphne Walker, so perhaps even more
details can be obtained from her one of these days. G.C.


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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              Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle - 13 March

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:37:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:04:25 -0400
Subject: Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle - 13 March


What further analysis on this dramatic series of sightings has
been published over the last 2.5 years?

Terry

---------
Version 1:

Here is the article summary from Bill Corliss' Science Frontiers
newsletter: "The Arizona Object"

"... Whatever it was flew low from Paulden, 60 miles north of
Phoenix, to at least as far as Tempe, southeast of Phoenix. The
apparition cruised leisurely (perhaps only 30 miles/hour),
remaining in the area for almost two hours. It consisted of a
curious V-shaped formation of lights, usually five in number.
...

*The object, or formation of objects, was extremely large,
perhaps a kilometer in length.

*Although the lights were easily discerned, the craft, if such
there was, seemed only a vague outline that blocked out the
stars.

*No sound was reported, which would seem to eliminate
conventional aircraft.

*Air-traffic controllers could see the lights, but nothing
appeared in their radars. One would think this fact would
eliminate lighter-than-air craft.

*The lights themselves were not sharply defined like light
bulbs. Rather, they appeared curiously distorted--like a gas
flame. ...

"Comment [by Bill Corliss]: Given the large number of observers
backed by videotapes, we have a phenomenon that should receive
some official attention. Nothing seems to be in the works
though. Some ufologists have wondered whether the whole show
was staged by the government and will be explained later as an
example of how people can be deluded by ordinary man-made
devices!" ----------- Clare, I've heard nothing of holographic
testing.** The only two explanations in the local papers have
been military parachute flares and hoaxing by light aircraft
pilots. One advantage in my former place of employment is that
I worked with about one dozen retired Air Force and Navy pilots
and crewmembers. These people had backgrounds ranging from
pilot, navigator, radar specialist, airborne command and
control, tactical digital information link (TADIL), and
ABCCC/AWACS staff positions. None of them gave any credence to
the flares or hoaxing explanations. **Thought I read a message
on either the IUFO or UASR lists about new holographic
technology. Do you remember this?

Science Frontiers is an academic review of new/fringe science in
archeology, astronomy, biology, geology, geophysics, psychology,
and unclassified. It is published every two months and at four
pages is a quick read. Free the first year and $7 each year if
you don't buy a book or two. Bill includes a four page book
review supplement with each SF issue. Write to William R.
Corliss; Sourcebook Project; P.O. Box 107; Glen Arm, Maryland
21057 U.S.A.

Did you see the UASR message that included an e-mail from an
Arizona politician, Frances Emma Barwood? She lost the primary
race as candidate for Arizona Secretary of State. I'm pondering
whether or not to bother her with the SF analysis above.

Still looking for a copy of Vallee's _Passport to Magonia_. It
was never returned when loaned or one of the neighborhood kids
"borrowed" it. BTW, have you read Ivan T. Sanderson's
_Uninvited Visitors_. He parallels Vallee and even discusses
unknown lifeforms. Although this is farfetched I'm a little
biased. Ivan was a mentor in forteana/paranormal in our brief
correspondence (1969-1972). His death in 1973 was a great loss
to study of the paranormal and UFOs. He published 'Pursuit'
magazine and formed the Society for the Investigation of The
Unexplained (SITU).

Best wishes, Terry ---------------------------------------------
----------------------- Version 2: Following on the heels of my
recent posting in response to Brad's request for dramatic UFO
cases, I share with the list a press release we circulated to a
number of news outlets today. Interestingly, one of the wire
services we contacted stated that they had never heard of the
event!  This IS the fourth rock from the Sun, is it not...??!

((BEGIN COPIED PRESS RELEASE))

PRESS RELEASE

Saturday, March 13, 1999, marks the second anniversary of the
dramatic UFO sighting event that occurred two years ago over
both the states of Nevada and Arizona, an event generally
referred to as the "Phoenix Lights" case.  One unconfirmed
sighting report was received from the State of New Mexico, as
well.

Many aspects of the case still remain unexplained and
controversial, but a considerable body of data and evidence has
been collected by many capable investigators, which suggests
that the event was extraordinarily dramatic and bizarre.
 Moreover, it went virtually unreported in the press, save for a
handful of short articles printed in local Arizona newspapers.
 The story finally "broke" with a major, front-page article in
USA TODAY on Wednesday, June 18, 1997, some three months after
the incident had occurred.

Some of the salient features of the case are described below:

1) Perhaps thousands, or tens of thousands, of witnesses on the
ground witnessed at least one object pass and/or hover overhead
which they described as being huge, gigantic, or unimaginably
large. Many of the witnesses reported that they had the
impression that a Boeing 747 could land on the back of the
object they had just witnessed pass overhead their location.

2) Most witnesses described the object as being generally
triangular in shape, with anywhere from five, to "many,
innumerable," lights on the leading edge of the object. Some
observers reported that the pattern of lights consisted of three
lights clustered near the "nose" of the object, with one light
on each of the trailing tips of the triangle. Other individuals
reported an object that appeared to have seven large lights
equally spaced along its leading edge.

3) The object apparently was capable of very rapid flight,
probably even supersonic flight, although few witnesses reported
any sound emanating >from it. The object was reported heading
generally to the southeast over Henderson, NV, at 1855 hrs.
(Pacific), and was next reported heading to the south in the
vicinity of Paulden, AZ, approximately 22 minutes later at 2017
hrs. (Mountain). Within approximately one minute of the
sighting in Paulden, the object was reported from the vicinity
of Prescott Valley, AZ, roughly 30 miles to the south. The
object then appeared over Phoenix, where it is reported to have
hovered for 4-5 minutes in the vicinity of the intersection of
Indian School Road and 7th Avenue.

4) The object passed through the airspace of Sky Harbor Airport,
where it was witnessed by air traffic controllers in the airport
tower, and where it also was reported via radio by at least one
commercial flight crew. They reported via radio that the object
was passing directly overhead their aircraft, which was on the
ground preparing to depart Sky Harbor. The object reportedly
did not appear on radar, and it did not communicate via either
radio or transponder.

5) From the Phoenix area, the object reportedly proceeded
generally south toward South Mountain, continuing southeast
toward Tucson, AZ, along Interstate 10. One family, driving
northwest toward Phoenix on Interstate 10 near Casa Grande, AZ,
reported that the object remained above them for an estimated 1-
2 minutes while they were driving at approximately 80 miles per
hour. The object was so large above them that the family's two
children in the back seat of their station wagon simultaneously
could see the opposite "wing tips" of the object out both the
left and right passenger windows.

6) The National UFO Reporting Center received a telephone call
approximately seven hours after the incident from a person who
identified himself as an airman stationed at Luke Air Force
Base, located 20 miles to the west of Phoenix. The individual
reported that the U. S. Air Force had launched two F-15c fighter
aircraft from Luke AFB, and that one of the aircraft had
"intercepted" a gigantic object over the intersection of Indian
School Road and 7th Avenue. It was also reported by this
individual that the onboard radar of the intercepting fighter
had suddenly gone to a condition of "white noise," and that the
lights on the anomalous object simultaneously had suddenly
dimmed in unison and disappeared from the pilot's sight.
 (Please see text of conversation with the alleged airman at
www.ufocenter.com.)

7) On March 14, 1997, senior officers from Luke Air Force Base
stated that they knew nothing about the incident, and that the
base had received no reports from the public regarding the
event. Long distance telephone bills, which indicate calls to
the base, contradict the statements made by these officers.

8) Some military personnel and UFO investigators have asserted
that the entire event was caused by "military flares" that had
been released at approximately 2130 hrs. (Mountain) by a flight
of USAF A-10 aircraft in the general vicinity of the Gila Bend
Bombing Range. The bombing facility is located approximately
60-80 miles to the southwest of Phoenix. This event, if in fact
it did take place, occurred at approximately 2130 or 2200 hrs.,
some 45 minutes after the UFO sighting had already occurred over
northern Arizona, Phoenix, and Tucson.

9) The witnesses who reported their sightings of the object over
northern Arizona and Phoenix include architects, physicians, law
enforcement officers, educators, attorneys, airline pilots,
scientists, real estate brokers, and other seemingly reliable
citizens. Many are qualified observers, and have reported their
sightings in eloquent, written form.


Further questions may be directed to: The National UFO Reporting
Center P. O. Box 45623 University Station Seattle, WA 98145
Hotline: (206) 722-3000 (0800 to 2400 hrs. Pacific)

Press release prepared by Peter B. Davenport, Director, National
UFO Reporting Center at 1300 hrs. (Pacific) on March 09, 1999.


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Oct > Oct 18

                   Phoenix Lights Tag: "Re: Welcome Back!"

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:42:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:13:56 -0400
Subject: Phoenix Lights Tag: "Re: Welcome Back!"


Jim,

Again thanks for the welcome back. I've been here all along
except for those two jaunts to Kuwait (Aug-Nov 1999) and South
Korea (Sep-Dec 2000) as a steenkeen contractor. Kuwait was
another despairing exposure to human nature at its worst and
South Korea was the opposite and good money to boot.

I'm sending separately the Phoenix Lights messages which you
will find a bit more interesting than the blurbs in newspapers
or even the few internet sites even mentioning the events. These
messages actually give a timeline, compare similarities and put
the kibosh on the proffered explanations. I'm sending the full
spectrum from serious to facetious to humorous.

(see below)


Jim Bjaloncik wrote on Sat, 1 Dec 2001 @ 21:51:08 -0500:

>>Jim,

>>I'm repeating my message of August 2001 for two reasons. Did you receive
>>this message? I hope I half-assed answered your question(s) about the
>>Phoenix "lights."

>Good evening Terry - Always good to hear from you. Yep, I think I did get
>your messsge. It seems to me that there were other "Lights" being spotted
>around Arizona this past year, but I've lost track of where they were. The
>infamous "Phoenix Lights" of 1996 or '97 still makes the rounds of various
>media. A small network known as PAX TV (we have it here in NE Ohio where I
>think the corporate HQ is located) carries a syndicated show hosted by "Law
>and Orders" Jerry Orbach - they had a 1/2 hour on the "Lights" last night.
>Interviewed the women ex-councilman from Phoenix that pushed for an
>investigation and was either ignored or ridiculed for it. Also interviewed
>Jim Dilletoso. the Phoenix photgraphic expert that gets brought in on
>various UFO pix and videos. Didn't realize (or maybe didn't remember) that
>prior to the Phoenix Lights there were huge triangular craft spotted in
>Nevada and in the northern part of AZ. Eventually also seen around Tucson.
>One guy and his family driving on a highway spotted it over their car and it
>took 2-3 minutes driving at 70 mph to completely pass under it. Now that's
>ONE BIG CRAFT! If that's what it was.

The way phenomena drops off the human radar screen is an
interesting aside in itself. Our media gives the barest coverage
and then true to form fails to do any follow-on investigative
reporting. Those docu-dramas and specials tend to embellish and
go off on tangents which is perfect ammunition for the academics
and skeptics. I too hold dear the scientific method but not to
the extent of ignoring good data and moving the goalposts. BTW,
I think I heard President Bush citing "absence of evidence is
not evidence of absence" when referring to the terrorist
sleepers.

CRS (can't remember stuff) kicking in, but I think Emma Barwood
was the ex-council woman in Phoenix. We exchanged two or three
e-mails before she and her husband moved to northern Arizona,
perhaps the Flagstaff area.

>>Also, I'm looking for the web site on those radio number
>>stations articles. Do you still have it. I've searched the net
>>and searched the Anomalist web site and just sent the co-
>>editor a message. Pulled out my file from my secret archives
>>and found them. Check out the following:

>>www.access.digex.net/~cps/numbers.html>>

>>www.access.digex.net/~cps/numbers.biblio.html>>

>>http://itre.ncsu.edu/radio/numbers.html

>Haven't dug into the Net in a while to see if anything new is
>out there. Also have been sproadic in my SWL - I fire up my old
>Hallicrafters every so often but haven't heard any numbers as of
>late. Winter is a better time for DX'ing and hopefully I'll have
>more time to tune in. By the way, don't be surprised if one or
>more of those links are no longer available. Will have to check
>them out myself later.

Thank you for these sites. The article on phone phreaking and
numbers stations is in Anomalist 1 @:

http://www.anomalist.com

I've read another article somewhere that goes into greater
detail.

>You and your family have a a great Holiday Season. Keep in
>touch. If I come up with anything new, I'll let you know. I've
>recently started using GOOGLE as my search engine - does a
>great job.

The best of holiday and the new year to you and yours, too. Ours
was great: Siam in from Las Vegas; Thanit and wife Heidi from
Queen Creek, Arizona; Amy and husband Steve with grandsons
Nicholas (4) and Jacob (1); and Jeremy from Boston (USAF 2LT).
My older daughter Sapun, husband Tommy and our grand-daughters
Cassie (8.5) and Katrina (4.5) unable to come in from Fort Hood,
Texas.

Yes, GOOGLE is fast and thorough. I sometimes use WebFerret, too.

>L8R, Jim


Check 6,

Terry

P.S.: The best UFO docu-drama video is IMO:

"UFO's: It Has Begun" (Rod Serling, Burgess Meredith, Jose
Ferrer, with Dr. Jacques Vallee, Dr. Hynek et al), released in
1979. The narration by Rod Serling is excellent (shades of Outer
Limits!) and the cases reviewed are those gems known up through
the mid-1970s. Curious, this site shows a video cover with Rod
Serling, Jose Ferrer, and Burgess Meredith. Released in 1979,
perhaps Rod Serling did work for the producers 4+ years prior to
the 1979 release date. I didn't know he had died in 1975.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?style=movie&PID=1579955&frm=sh_google


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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                          Secrecy News -- 10/17/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:21:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:55:28 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/17/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 90
October 17, 2003


**      SOURCES OF WEN HO LEE LEAK SOUGHT
**      INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION
**      TELLER ON POLYGRAPH
**      THE BUTLER CASE ON SIXTY MINUTES


SOURCES OF WEN HO LEE LEAK SOUGHT

A federal court last week ordered five reporters from the New York
Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Associated Press and CNN to
disclose the confidential sources they used in reporting on the
case of Wen Ho Lee, the former Los Alamos scientist who had been
suspected of espionage.  Dr. Lee charges that his privacy was
violated by the reported leaks.

The new court order, issued in D.C. District Court by Judge Thomas
Penfield Jackson, invokes a 1972 Supreme Court case, Branzburg v.
Hayes, to show that the "reporter's privilege" which protects the
confidentiality of news sources is not absolute:

"It would be frivolous to assert... that the First Amendment, in the
interest of securing news or otherwise, confers a license on either
the reporter or his news sources to violate valid criminal laws,"
the Supreme Court held in 1972.

A copy of Judge Jackson's October 9 order may be found here (thanks
to Kent Dedrick of wenholee.org):

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/whl_leak.pdf

This matter obviously resonates with another leak case, the
disclosure by Robert Novak of the identity of an undercover CIA
officer, currently the subject of an ongoing investigation.

"I've constantly expressed my displeasure with leaks, particularly
leaks of classified information," said President Bush on October 7.

But this statement overlooks the crucial difference between
classified information that is protected by law, e.g. the
identities of "covert agents," and other classified information
that is not so protected.  It also obscures the objective fact that
leaks often serve a vital function in defeating improper secrecy
and informing the public.

"High-level leaking, for reasons good and bad, has long been part of
U.S. political reality," writes John Woestendiek in "Secret
Weapon," Baltimore Sun, October 14:

  http://www.sunspot.net/features/bal-to.leak14oct14,0,6958270.story


INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION

Department of Energy (DOE) reviewers located hundreds of pages of
inadvertently released classified information among publicly
available records at the National Archives earlier this year,
according to a DOE report to Congress.

Documents containing classified nuclear weapons-related information
were found in collections belonging to the Department of State, the
Department of Defense, and the Executive Office of the President,
according to the report, the eleventh in a continuing series.  They
were removed.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent11.html

The DOE review is based on stringent and arguably obsolete
classification criteria.  Thus, reviewers habitually discover
records that are formally "classified" merely because they identify
the location of a nuclear weapon storage site decades ago, or
reveal the cost of a particular weapon or component.

Meanwhile, the open-ended hunt for inadvertently disclosed
classified information at the National Archives, along with various
other post-9/11 restrictions, has apparently wreaked havoc with
public access to historical records at the Archives.

There are numerous anecdotal accounts of large, indiscriminate
withdrawals of historical records that suggest the need for
enhanced oversight and investigation of restrictions on records
access at the Archives.

"DOE has now classified several boxes from RG 77 (Manhattan
Engineering District)," observed intelligence historian Jeffrey T.
Richelson recently.  "Some or all of these contain documents
relating to US intelligence concerning Germany's WW II atomic
energy/bomb efforts."  Others report that various "documents
concerning Japan's WWII BW efforts are no longer available to the
public."

"I wonder if the Civil War is next," said Richelson.


TELLER ON POLYGRAPH

In the perennial dispute over the legitimacy of polygraph testing as
a tool for security screening of government employees, the late
physicist Edward Teller sided with his scientific colleagues at the
national laboratories in opposition to the polygraph.

"Together with many others, I believe that its negative effects ...
by far outweigh the conceivable advantages [and] the rather dubious
evidence that the tests may give," Teller wrote to the Secretary of
Energy.

Teller's October 27, 1999 letter on polygraph was obtained by
researcher/reporter Michael Ravnitzky under the Freedom of
Information Act.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/teller.pdf


THE BUTLER CASE ON SIXTY MINUTES

The controversial case of Thomas C. Butler, the distinguished
infectious disease specialist who is the target of aggressive
government prosecution because he allegedly mishandled biological
agents and committed other violations, continues to perplex and
alarm observers.

CBS Sixty Minutes is scheduled to broadcast a segment on the case on
Sunday, October 19.

In a reportorial coup, Sixty Minutes managed to tape interviews with
the principals before a gag order was imposed on the parties last
month.

The court in its wisdom determined that the rights of the defendant,
who faces 64 counts of everything from smuggling to tax evasion and
embezzlement, might be "impaired" if he or his attorneys were
allowed to talk to the press.

"There is a substantial likelihood that certain form[s] of
publicity, to wit, extrajudicial statements of a prejudicial nature
by parties and their representatives to members of the press, might
impair the rights of the defendant, the government and the public
to a fair trial by an impartial jury," wrote Texas judge Sam R.
Cummings.

See a copy of Judge Cummings' gag order, filed September 12, here:

http://www.fas.org/butler/gag.pdf

And then watch Sixty Minutes.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Oct > Oct 18

                    Phoenix Lights + Frances Emma Barwood

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:44:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:22:39 -0400
Subject: Phoenix Lights + Frances Emma Barwood


Former Phoenix Councilwoman Frances Emma Barwood said the local
media ridiculed her when she asked for and was denied an
investigation. Now living with her husband, Mike, in a cabin in
the Bradshaw Mountains near Dewey, Barwood still finds it
incredulous how she was treated.

"All I wanted them to do was investigate this," she said. "I
never said anything about extraterrestrials."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0318b3update18.html

Mystery lingers over sighting of Phoenix Lights

Thomas Ropp
The Arizona Republic
March 18, 2002 12:00:00

Then:

It may have been the greatest UFO sighting in history.

Or the lamest.

By most accounts, a large "V" formation of lights flew silently
over the state for up to two hours on March 13, 1997. It
traveled along a 300-mile corridor from the Nevada line on a
southern heading through Prescott Valley and Phoenix to the
northern edge of Tucson. Later in the night, a second event
occurred when a series of bright lights hung on Phoenix's
southern horizon like a string of glowing pearls.

Now:

Five years after the Phoenix Lights streaked across Arizona,
believers and skeptics are still worlds apart as to what took
place.

"The Phoenix Lights case was the most dramatic UFO event we have
ever handled," said Peter Davenport, director of the National
UFO Reporting Center in Seattle.

The official military explanation: the "V" formation wa s a
squadron of military planes and the balls of light were high-
intensity flares.


*****

Personal message from Frances Emma Barwood:

We are moving to north central Arizona tomorrow. We didn't think
it would be so soon but the people that have bought our house
were promised we would move on closing. Contrary to most
closings, it happened within 3 weeks and we were told on Friday
afternoon that closing would be Monday AM and they would be
moving in Tuesday. We thought we had at least a week or so to
go. Then my computer went down and so here I am, on Sunday
afternoon, trying to let everyone know that I will not be able
to be as close in touch as normal. It seems that US West cannot
put phone lines in the area that we are moving for at least a
year! So to PLAN B. We are getting a cellular modem to get my
emails. My email address will stay the same for awhile. It will
not be used frequently due to the time and cost. Please limit
your emails to really urgent stuff. If you want a personal
answer please put PERSONAL in the subject line. I get over 250
emails a day and have to get off most of the bulletin boards but
still want to know any urgent information. Below is my new
mailing address. If you need to send me something that is where
it should be sent. Otherwise email will do. I will be reading
and writing off-line and will just send and get once a day or
less.

We are moving to an area near Dewey, AZ. My husband's business,
since 1983, has been solar electric (photovoltaics), wind
generators, hydrogen power and all other alternative power. The
name of our company is Sunrise Energy Alternatives Co. He works
mostly in the rural areas and we have stayed in the Phoenix area
because of me being on the Phoenix City council. Since he
travels all over the state and country we have decided it is
more accessible for him to locate centrally in AZ.

As for me, I am writing a book and am also a representative for
I-Link communication system. It is a 'cyberspace office', so to
speak. It has the cheapest long distance rates and no one has
matched that. Also, by calling my I-Link ONE NUMBER, which
follows me wherever I want it to or not, you can reach me or
leave a message or send a fax. I can get it over the phone
lines, pay phone or at a Kinko's to get my faxes or over the
internet through my account. I can view my messages and see if
they are voice or fax. Then I can either listen or view the fax.
I can email them to anyone or print the fax. I can also fax
broadcast or voice mail broadcast, up to 65,000 people, to
whomever I want. One of the main things that people want it for
is the long distance is only 4.9 to 6.9 cents a minute, 24 hours
a day, 7 days a week! There are more bonuses that come with it
and that is why I got the service and then became a rep. My
follow me number is what I listed on the 'For Sale' sign and I
was reached in midtown Phoenix I came right back and sold it
within an hour. You are never out of touch unless you want it to
go directly to the voice mail. I can also post faxes or voice
mails for people to access information themselves, great for
real estate or sales people. This is called voice or fax on
demand. Anyway, as you can see I will be keeping busy. This
entire service costs only 16.95 a month (6.95 for only the long
distance rates). If you prepay it is $2 less for each. Email or
call me if you want any more info on this great I-Link service.

I will also be doing an occasional radio show. It is so
important that you all call in to talk radio and let them know
how you feel on the issues that are important to you. If you do
not make that extra effort when the talking heads are contrary
to your beliefs, then you can not complain when it continues
their way. Mainly, don't give up. If you want to be off my list,
please email me. Frances Emma Barwood former Phoenix Vice Mayor
and Councilwoman

>>>>>****NOTE NEW #s AFTER APRIL 26TH******<<<<<<

P.O. Box 417,
Mayer, AZ 86333
602-604-7774 vm/ fax

http://www.ezplace.com/barwood/


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Oct > Oct 18

                            Montana UFO 10-15-03

From: Caroline Eikenberry <xinnocentvice@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:55:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:03:26 -0400
Subject: Montana UFO 10-15-03


Hello there,

I was looking for information on UFO sightings in Montana when I
came upon this mailinglist. One I would like to be added. Two, I
have a sighting already.

I was always aware of the AFB in Great Falls, Montana. Heck I
have even been there on a few occasions.

I seriously think they have something to do with what happened
last night.

I work two jobs, my day job at local TV station as their
receptionist and at Hastings - a book, video and music store.

I was on register at around 9pm when two of my co-workers came
inside discussing whether of not a green bar in the sky was the
Northern Lights or not.

Now, I have seen the Northern lights here and they are never
very bright and are always green. Last night a green "bar" hung
in the sky for 30 minutes.

When I got off shift my fiancee picked me up. He said, "Hey did
you hear about the UFO." I was astonished. He was in fact
referencing the green light everyone had seen.

Someone had called the station and asked what the hell the green
light might be. One of the reporters went outside and ran back
in "( Name deleted) Get a Camera NOW!"

After discussing the footage with thier weather man, the Norther
Lights were ruled out. I saw the tape. This was a straight green
line. The clouds are clearly moving in front of it in the
footage. The bar never moves.

I am not sure if this is related to an acutal saucer, or alien
craft sighting, but what I do think is that part of the "Star
Wars" system was activated last night. But if the system was
activated last night, what caused it to stay on for so long?

We think it was a laser from a missile protection system being
tested.

Does anyone have any idea?

I am thinking Malmstrom to be the suspect in this strange
occurance.


-Noccie









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                          FOTOCAT News October 2003

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:06:25 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:24:03 -0400
Subject: FOTOCAT News October 2003


PROJECT FOTOCAT NEWS, October 2003

For previous reports and citations of various forms of co-
operation with this project, see:

http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1.htm


LATEST COUNT
The latest tally of FOTOCAT shows 4,000 entries! Considering an
estimate of 10,000 of the total number of photographic cases
world-wide between 1947 and 2003, it shows the big progress
accomplished to date.

OUTSTANDING DONATION
An important donation has just taken place. Dr. Roberto Enrique
Banchs, one of the leading, historical figures of UFO research
in Argentina, has generously submitted to the FOTOCAT Project
his personal collection of photographs amounting to some
hundreds of prints and slides, which will certainly enrich our
archives. This material will surely complement our documentation
files, mainly for Argentina.

CHANGES IN FOTOCAT's STRUCTURE
The FOTOCAT Excel listing is evolving once more. The last
version has included the decision to be in English, because most
of potential users are English-speaking. Also, new columns have
been added to include: names of photographers, media associated
to them, special features of photographs or photography
conditions (infrared or other sensibility film used, stereo o
3D, automatic cameras, gun or satellite cameras, object
invisible to eye, blank photos, spectra or magnetic recording,
etc). Besides, a new column introduced to enter geographical
codes for provinces, States or regions for Spain, United States,
Brazil, France, Belgium, Canada, Australia, Mexico, etc. This
improvement will allow the researchers to tabulate the event
listing with larger flexibility, as soon as it is made freely
available through the internet.

RECENT INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION
Brad Sparks, a  noted US researcher has provided us with a copy
of his "Comprehensive Catalog of 1,500 Blue Book Unknowns: Work
in Progress", June 18, 2003 version.  24 photographic or film
cases are included and although only 2 reports were new to
FOTOCAT, a number of interesting details and references have
been added to the actual documentation.

=46rom Argentina, experienced UFO student Luis Eduardo Pacheco is
a frequent collaborator who remits us WWW=B4s url references where
UFO photos are depicted.

Michael Strainic, MUFON's Western Regional Director for Canada,
is reviewing the FOTOCAT records for his country and extensively
checking those against his own archives, which will finally
produce an accurate index of the UFO photo-phenomenology in
Canada.

We thank veteran ufologist Ignacio Darnaude Rojas-Marcos from
Seville (Spain) for providing us with a set of mystery
photographs from his archives.

The Spanish (Catalonian) Joan Plana Crivill=E9n has been an
outstanding investigator specialising in Defense and military
issues. Now he is retired from front ufology and he has donated
us a batch of first-generation photographs of UFO cases he had
in his files.

Another ufologist from Argentina, Luis Burgos, founder of the
Fundaci=F3n Argentina de Ovnilog=EDa, is proceeding with a
comprehensive survey of books and journals to prepare a list of
all UFO photographic events in his country. Given the number and
the task, Luis is sending the information in instalments, and it
is duly entered into FOTOCAT records. In the process, many new
cases to us are surfacing.

CO-OPERATION NEEDED: AN OFFER
The assistance of both national and foreign researchers is
requested. I offer to submit provincial (Spain), State (USA) or
national (other foreign countries) listings of the present
content of FOTOCAT to those students interested in reviewing
local cases. The aim is to correct the current input and to add
information to it. At the end, the benefit will be mutual. Those
interested can write to  FOTOCAT Project at:

fotocat@anomalia.org


Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos








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   Oct > Oct 18

               What Wesley Clark Really Said About Time Travel

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:22:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:32:31 -0400
Subject: What Wesley Clark Really Said About Time Travel


What Wesley Clark Really Said About Time Travel

by Brian McWilliams

October 14, 2003


On September 30, I published an article at Wired News entitled
Clark Campaigns at Light Speed.

The article reported on remarks made by Democratic presidential
candidate Wesley Clark during a campaign event Sept. 27 in New
Castle, New Hampshire. At the event, Clark stated his belief
that humans will someday be able to travel faster than the speed
of light.

Due to a faulty understanding of physics on my part, I
originally reported that Clark had professed a belief in the
possibility of time travel. While some experts have previously
said that travelling faster than light implies time travel,
Clark in fact did not specifically profess an interest in time
travel.

After several readers e-mailed me about this aspect of my
article, later on Sept. 30 I revised the online version of the
story to avoid suggesting Clark had advocated research into time
travel. (The quotes attributed to him, of course, remained
unchanged.)

Unfortunately, my reporting error is travelling at light speed
and has been duplicated in media outlets around the world.
Newspapers including the Washington Post and New York Times as
well as late-night TV show hosts Jay Leno and Dave Letterman
have borrowed the time travel idea from my story.

Given the current impossibility of rewinding time, my efforts
now to undo this mistake may be futile. But I hope to prevent
this mis-reporting of Clark's remarks from spreading further. To
that end, I have made an audio recording of the relevant section
of Clark's Sept. 27 campaign speech available here:

http://www.pc-radio.com/clark-nasa.mp3

The audio is about 3 min. 45 sec. and the file is about 668 KB.
Clark's comments about faster-than-light travel are at about
3:05. Feel free to publicize this link, and/or to download the
file and distribute it freely. I can also provide on request a
high fidelity version of the audio for broadcast.


Sincerely,

Brian S. McWilliams
PC-radio.com



"I still believe in e=mc2, but I can't believe that in all of
human history, we'll never ever be able to go beyond the speed
of light to reach where we want to. I happen to believe that
mankind can do it." General Wesley Clark










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   Oct > Oct 18

                  Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Burns

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:51:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:40:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine - Burns


>From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:44:06 +0000
>Subject: Rumours About UK UFO Magazine

>A rumour seems to have started that I am to be the new editor of
>UFO Magazine in the UK. I would like to inform you that this is
>not the case.

>Myself and one ot two others have been assisting UFO Magazine
>after the untimely death of its founder and editor Graham
>Birdsall. Between us we have ensured the short term survival of
>UFO Magazine but its ultimate fate lies in the hands of Graham's
>wife Christine, who quite naturally is still grieving for him.

>I don't know where these rumours have started but I'd like to
>put an end to this speculation once and for all.


Errol, Phil and Listers,

Phil, a good weekend was had by all at the Probe conference in
Blackpool. I just thought I should add this in case anyone is
of the opinion that Phil Mantle has started this rumour.

I asked Phil over a few beers what he was doing with UFO
Magazine. Philip simply replied that he was only helping out in
a small way and made no mention of becoming editor or any other
position. I did hear a number of other ufologists speculating
that Phil was going to be the editor. Maybe this is where it has
oringinated from.


Max Burns






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   Oct > Oct 18

                  Remote Viewers Teaming Up With Abductees?

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:28:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:29:20 -0400
Subject: Remote Viewers Teaming Up With Abductees?


Hi List -

Remote viewers are getting more common these days, as some of
the original STARGATE RV-ers have been offering courses. I don't
personally have a list of sources for this type of service, but
I'm sure a list could be had by searching the web.

I can only wonder what sort of insights would emerge if a few
abductees would quietly team up with experienced remote viewers.
One of the aspects of remote viewing is that RV-ers have been
able to accurately RV future events, proven by what actually
happened, and past events as well.

Surely this would be a powerful complement to hypnotic
regression?


Eleanor White

[See: http://www.crviewer.com/crviewer/index.html --ebk]







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   Oct > Oct 18

              Re: Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:25:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery -


>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:30:29 -0400
>Subject: Deer Surveillance Photos Catch Ohio Mystery

>"Unexplained images appear in local man's wildlife photos"

>Keyed article from the Adams County (Ohio) People's Defender

>Wednesday, October 15, 2003

>By Jynx Jenkins, Staff Writer for People's Defender

>http://www.peoplesdefender.com

<snip>

>Upon chronological inspection of the prints in question, a
>sequence seemed to emerge beginning with a white obelisk in the
>center of the frame. The photos, taken in the westwardly
>direction, then show what appears to be a bright flash,
>accompanied by streams of light or white area following. The
>next frame shows the white or light area moving south west, or
>to the left, in the frame.

You know, that sounds very similar to what a psychic, who
specializes in photographing 'orbs', got as a result when he
took flash photos at night next to a hospital. He stated that
orb occurrences are usually high near hospitals.

Apparently, 'orbs' do more than reflect light. The flash is said
to trigger orbs into sending out some sort of camera- visible
energy. This energy is also visible to the psychic or
'sensitive' but may not be visible to all observers, even though
the orbs appear brightly on the film. This man, and I'm sorry,
this was long enough ago I don't remember his name, said that
near the hospital next door he would sometimes see a veritable
'fireworks display' in response to his flash bulb.


Eleanor White








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   Oct > Oct 18

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:37:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:12:12 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:08:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>Neil has been trying to make a Federal case out of a Reuters'
>quote that none of Ramey's men recognized it as an Army type
>balloon. But a rawin _is_ Army balloon equipment, developed
>specifically for the Army weather services during WWII. You
>can't think or even guess it might be an ML307 rawin and not
>know that it was also an Army weather device.

David,

A rawin is not a piece of equipment. It is winds-aloft data. The
rawin data was not developed specifically for the Army weather
services during WWII, it was developed for the artillery arms.

The majority of the upper air-data was obtained by the artillery
arms because the weather service simply did not have the
equipment to collect rawin data. The need for rawin data by
artillery arms is very self- explanatory.

Rawin data was obtained via two methods, radio-direction-
finding equipment (RDF) or radio detection and ranging equipment
(RADAR).

In the case of RADAR, the balloon carries a target (ML307(*)/AP)
which serves as a reflector for a beam of radio waves sent from
a transmitter on the ground.

So you see, the target was a common passive device. In the case
of RDF, the balloon carried a radio transmitter who signal was
picked up by a receiver on the ground. It did not require a
target attached to the balloon.

>More importantly, you can't deduce a "hexagonal" shape by
>looking at torn-up debris. Calling a rawin "hexagonal" would
>only be done by somebody highly familiar with intact, assembled
>rawins. Further these might only look "hexagonal" if viewed from
>a distance and viewed directly from the bottom or top. Close up
>or viewing a little off to the side, and there is nothing
>"hexagonal" about them at all. Thus somebody who launched these
>devices and viewed them from underneath as they went up and
>soared out of sight might notice a hexagonal profile, but why
>would Ramey know about such things?

David, the targets were introduced in basic radar theory, which
was not confined to weather service personnel but given to
artillery arms personnel as well. The targets came in a boxs of
24 targets/box. There were all flattened. They were taken out of
the box unfolded and assembled. The chances of having someone
describe the targets design as hexagonal are very good. It
doesn't matter whether or not Ramey knew of such things. He had
people around him to tell him.


>So why does Ramey tell Major Kirton to describe the torn up
>object in his office as "hexagonal" while also saying that
>nobody recognized at as an Army device? The statements are
>contradictory. If somebody recognized it as a rawin and was also
>so highly familiar with rawins that they knew they might look
>hexagonal when intact, then why the cat and mouse game about the
>identity, and why the statement that nobody recognized it for
>what it was?

Neil is not making a federal case of the Reuter's quote. He is
simply saying that because these tagets were so common and
because they were made of tinfoil and balsa sticks,  there is no
reason in the world why they could not have identified the
material as a rawin target. But, it is obivious that was not the
case because Ramey said they could not recognize it as army
balloon material. Ramey would not have said that if there wasn't
some truth to it.

What is the federal case here? There is no federal case It would
appear to me that you can't see the trees from the forest, and
I'm using the saying backwards.


Best Regards,

Andrew








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   Oct > Oct 18

                         Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:26:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:14:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?


>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
>>Subject: Remote Viewing?

><snip>

>>Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
>>Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
>>will help our research, and the research of other authors.

>"Help" authors and researchers is an extreme understatement!

>Remote viewing is the most powerful way available to learn the
>truth about UFOs, alien activity, government cover up, you name
>it. I say _bravo_ and God speed and _thanks_ to you for raising
>this issue.

>It is absolutely _tragic_ that people in the West, seniour UFO
>researchers, scientists, the media, heap ridicule on what is so
>obviously the "next level" of scientific progress, instead of
>taking advantage of this technology with all possible speed.

In the past whenever I have heard about remote viewing, I am
reminded of various pronouncements in the 1997-99 time frame.

Anyways this is a very short list of a long list of tales and
remote viewing from the supposed RV community that saw all of
this. These tales were:

 1) There is/was a martian hive colony living underground in New
Mexico and in 1996 the martians were going to come out and
invade earth. Didn't happen.

 2) After amateur astronomer Chuck Sharmak unloaded his pictures
of the supposed companion object allegedly following Hale Bopp,
within 3 days of the announcement the remote viewers confirmed
the claim. No Companion object and Sharmak apologized for his
mistake.

 3) The remote viewers told us that they had RV'ed how the
earth, when it transversed through the path of Hale Bopp was
going to get some type of pathagon which would destory all grass
and other green plant life. Never Happened.

  4) We had remote viewers all extolling why the other remote
viewers were full of crap, but they themselves weren't.
Partially true. Both were full of crap.

Getting accurate information out of remote viewers is about as
accurate as interpreting Nostradamus quantrains....it appears to
be much easier to tie something to the past, then to accuratly
predict the future.


Cheers,

Robert







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                             The Phoenix Lights

From: Geoff Richardson <geoff@fastdog.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:50:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:23:46 -0400
Subject: The Phoenix Lights


The series of incidents which took place in the skies over
Phoenix, Arizona, in March 1997, are covered in some detail at
"The WHY? Files" -  See: The Phoenix Lights

http://www.thewhyfiles.co.uk


Geoff Richardson








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                          FOTOCAT News October 2003

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:06:25 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:24:03 -0400
Subject: FOTOCAT News October 2003


PROJECT FOTOCAT NEWS, October 2003

For previous reports and citations of various forms of co-
operation with this project, see:

http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1.htm


LATEST COUNT
The latest tally of FOTOCAT shows 4,000 entries! Considering an
estimate of 10,000 of the total number of photographic cases
world-wide between 1947 and 2003, it shows the big progress
accomplished to date.

OUTSTANDING DONATION
An important donation has just taken place. Dr. Roberto Enrique
Banchs, one of the leading, historical figures of UFO research
in Argentina, has generously submitted to the FOTOCAT Project
his personal collection of photographs amounting to some
hundreds of prints and slides, which will certainly enrich our
archives. This material will surely complement our documentation
files, mainly for Argentina.

CHANGES IN FOTOCAT's STRUCTURE
The FOTOCAT Excel listing is evolving once more. The last
version has included the decision to be in English, because most
of potential users are English-speaking. Also, new columns have
been added to include: names of photographers, media associated
to them, special features of photographs or photography
conditions (infrared or other sensibility film used, stereo o
3D, automatic cameras, gun or satellite cameras, object
invisible to eye, blank photos, spectra or magnetic recording,
etc). Besides, a new column introduced to enter geographical
codes for provinces, States or regions for Spain, United States,
Brazil, France, Belgium, Canada, Australia, Mexico, etc. This
improvement will allow the researchers to tabulate the event
listing with larger flexibility, as soon as it is made freely
available through the internet.

RECENT INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION
Brad Sparks, a  noted US researcher has provided us with a copy
of his "Comprehensive Catalog of 1,500 Blue Book Unknowns: Work
in Progress", June 18, 2003 version.  24 photographic or film
cases are included and although only 2 reports were new to
FOTOCAT, a number of interesting details and references have
been added to the actual documentation.

=46rom Argentina, experienced UFO student Luis Eduardo Pacheco is
a frequent collaborator who remits us WWW=B4s url references where
UFO photos are depicted.

Michael Strainic, MUFON's Western Regional Director for Canada,
is reviewing the FOTOCAT records for his country and extensively
checking those against his own archives, which will finally
produce an accurate index of the UFO photo-phenomenology in
Canada.

We thank veteran ufologist Ignacio Darnaude Rojas-Marcos from
Seville (Spain) for providing us with a set of mystery
photographs from his archives.

The Spanish (Catalonian) Joan Plana Crivill=E9n has been an
outstanding investigator specialising in Defense and military
issues. Now he is retired from front ufology and he has donated
us a batch of first-generation photographs of UFO cases he had
in his files.

Another ufologist from Argentina, Luis Burgos, founder of the
Fundaci=F3n Argentina de Ovnilog=EDa, is proceeding with a
comprehensive survey of books and journals to prepare a list of
all UFO photographic events in his country. Given the number and
the task, Luis is sending the information in instalments, and it
is duly entered into FOTOCAT records. In the process, many new
cases to us are surfacing.

CO-OPERATION NEEDED: AN OFFER
The assistance of both national and foreign researchers is
requested. I offer to submit provincial (Spain), State (USA) or
national (other foreign countries) listings of the present
content of FOTOCAT to those students interested in reviewing
local cases. The aim is to correct the current input and to add
information to it. At the end, the benefit will be mutual. Those
interested can write to  FOTOCAT Project at:

fotocat@anomalia.org


Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos








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   Oct > Oct 18

                      UFO Still Puzzles 30 Years Later

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:02:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:44:43 -0400
Subject: UFO Still Puzzles 30 Years Later


Source: Mansfield News Journal, Ohio

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/news/stories/20031018/localnews/476885.html

Saturday, October 18, 2003

By Russ Kent
News Journal

MANSFIELD -- Thirty years ago tonight, strange things were
happening in the skies over north central Ohio.

A close encounter in Mansfield, that has since become known as
"The Coyne Incident," is still raising eyebrows among believers
and UFO investigators.

That evening, in a soybean field on the west side of Galion,
Rene Boucher and her brother Brad encountered a bright light in
the sky that has lured her from Florida for another sojourn into
that field.

It was about 11 p.m. on Oct. 18, 1973, when an Army Reserve
helicopter came perilously close to colliding with an
unidentified flying object.

Arrigo "Rick" Jezzi, 56, who now lives in Cincinnati, was flying
the Huey helicopter that night. Three decades later, he is still
not sure what happened.

Jezzi was one of four members of an Army Reserve unit based at
Hopkins Airport in Cleveland on board. The crew was en route to
Cleveland from Columbus.

"Capt. Larry Coyne was the pilot," Jezzi said. "I was in the
left seat, actually flying the Huey at the time. We were near
Mansfield flying at 2,500 to 3,000 feet."

John Healey and Robert Yanacsek were in the back of the Huey,
near a cargo door with a Plexiglas window.

"One of the guys in the back reported a red light. He said it
looked like an aircraft light on the right horizon," Jezzi said.
"I couldn't see it."

Jezzi was flying from the left seat. On the other side of the
Huey there was a 12-foot section of fuselage between the side
window and the cargo doors. He figures the red light was in his
blind spot.

"Then I heard 'I think its coming toward us'," Jezzi said. "The
next thing I knew Larry took control of the throttle. We went
into a maneuver, a controlled free fall. We dropped about 2,000
feet."

Jezzi said if Coyne had not made the drastic maneuver there
would have been a collision.

"It took just a couple of seconds," Jezzi said. "I remember
looking up through the ceiling and I saw a white light moving
over top of us. I followed it to the left horizon where it
disappeared."

Jezzi isn't sure what he saw. It was like no aircraft he'd ever
seen. He guessed it was traveling at least 500 knots, twice the
speed of his Huey.

"Red navigational lights aren't located in the front of an
aircraft," he said. "That's what was moving toward us. I don't
know what it was."

The incident was documented by witnesses on the ground. In UFO
lore the "Coyne Incident" is regarded as one of the most
reliable UFO sightings of all time.

"It caused a lot of hullabaloo," Jezzi said. "The first thing I
thought was those Commie bastards. What are they up to."

The next morning two of the other crew members, while being
questioned about the incident, sketched drawings of the cigar-
shaped craft they observed.

"They both came up with similar drawings," Jezzi said.

The magnetic compass in the Huey never worked right after the
incident and had to be replaced.

Rene Bouchard doesn't know what she saw in Galion about 60
minutes earlier that same evening.

"I was in high school. My brother was in junior high," she said.
"There had been a lot of sightings in the days and weeks before
that. Even the governor reported seeing something. We thought
we'd give it a try."

She and her brother walked out in the field behind their home
and started watching the sky.

"We saw a bunch of stuff that looked like it was maybe 30,000
feet in the air," she said. "But it wasn't anything spectacular.
Then I think we both put our heads down for some reason. That's
when we saw this brilliant white light. It was as bright as the
sun. I don't know what it was but it scared us. We ran for two
blocks until we got home."

Rene has since moved to Florida. Her brother is in California.
She's back in Galion today and plans to go out in that same bean
field to spend part of her evening.

"We really saw something that night," she said. "I don't know
what it was. But I'll be back there (tonight). I called my
brother and asked him to fly here so he could go with me. He
said no. I'm not expecting to see anything. But I'm going to be
there."

rkent@nncogannett.com

-----

Incident named after pilot

The following article appeared in the Nov. 4, 1973, edition of
the Mansfield News Journal. It was written by a United Press
International reporter.

CLEVELAND -- Army Reserve helicopter pilot Capt. Lawrence Coyne
is a military commander who doesn't believe in unidentified
flying objects (UFOs) or little green spacemen.

But after a near miss two weeks ago between his helicopter and a
"big, gray, metallic-looking" object in the sky over Mansfield,
he doesn't know what to think.

"I had to file an official report in detail to the Army on this
thing," he said.

"Coyne is a member of the 316th Medical Detachment stationed at
Cleveland Hopkins Airport. He was returning from Columbus at
11:10 p.m., Oct. 18, when the UFO showed up near where the Air
National Guard has a squadron of jet fighters based.

He said a check turned up that none of the unit's F-100 Super
Saber Jets were in the air when the UFO appeared.

Coyne said when he first encountered the UFO, his helicopter was
cruising at 2,500 feet. He had the controls set for a 20-degree
dive, but the craft climbed to 3,500 feet with no power.

"I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "There was no noise
or turbulence, either."

Coyne said a red light appeared on the eastern horizon, and was
first spotted by his crew chief, Sgt. Robert Yanacsek.

"The light was traveling in excess of 600 knots," Coyne said.
"It came from the horizon to our aircraft in about 10 seconds.
We were on a collision course."

The pilot said he put his helicopter into a dive.

"At 1,700 feet I braced myself for the impact with the other
craft," he said. "It was coming from our right side. I was
scared. There had been so little time to respond. The thing was
terrifically fast."

There was no crash.

"We looked up and saw it stopped right over us," Coyne said. "It
had a big, gray metallic-looking hull about 60 feet long.

"It was shaped like an airfoil or a streamlined fat cigar. There
was a red light on the front. The leading edge glowed red a
short distance back from the nose. There was a center dome. A
green light at the rear reflected on the hull."

Coyne said the green light swiveled like a spotlight and beamed
through the canopy of his craft, bathing the cabin in green
light.

He said as he and members of the crew stared at the craft his
helicopter began to climb without his guidance.

"I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "All controls were
set for a 20-degree dive. Yet we had climbed from 1,700 to 3,500
feet with no power in a couple of seconds with no g-forces or
other noticeable strains."

Coyne said the UFO finally moved off to the west and was gone.








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                      UFO Still Puzzles 30 Years Later

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:02:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:44:43 -0400
Subject: UFO Still Puzzles 30 Years Later


Source: Mansfield News Journal, Ohio

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/news/stories/20031018/localnews/476885.html

Saturday, October 18, 2003

By Russ Kent
News Journal

MANSFIELD -- Thirty years ago tonight, strange things were
happening in the skies over north central Ohio.

A close encounter in Mansfield, that has since become known as
"The Coyne Incident," is still raising eyebrows among believers
and UFO investigators.

That evening, in a soybean field on the west side of Galion,
Rene Boucher and her brother Brad encountered a bright light in
the sky that has lured her from Florida for another sojourn into
that field.

It was about 11 p.m. on Oct. 18, 1973, when an Army Reserve
helicopter came perilously close to colliding with an
unidentified flying object.

Arrigo "Rick" Jezzi, 56, who now lives in Cincinnati, was flying
the Huey helicopter that night. Three decades later, he is still
not sure what happened.

Jezzi was one of four members of an Army Reserve unit based at
Hopkins Airport in Cleveland on board. The crew was en route to
Cleveland from Columbus.

"Capt. Larry Coyne was the pilot," Jezzi said. "I was in the
left seat, actually flying the Huey at the time. We were near
Mansfield flying at 2,500 to 3,000 feet."

John Healey and Robert Yanacsek were in the back of the Huey,
near a cargo door with a Plexiglas window.

"One of the guys in the back reported a red light. He said it
looked like an aircraft light on the right horizon," Jezzi said.
"I couldn't see it."

Jezzi was flying from the left seat. On the other side of the
Huey there was a 12-foot section of fuselage between the side
window and the cargo doors. He figures the red light was in his
blind spot.

"Then I heard 'I think its coming toward us'," Jezzi said. "The
next thing I knew Larry took control of the throttle. We went
into a maneuver, a controlled free fall. We dropped about 2,000
feet."

Jezzi said if Coyne had not made the drastic maneuver there
would have been a collision.

"It took just a couple of seconds," Jezzi said. "I remember
looking up through the ceiling and I saw a white light moving
over top of us. I followed it to the left horizon where it
disappeared."

Jezzi isn't sure what he saw. It was like no aircraft he'd ever
seen. He guessed it was traveling at least 500 knots, twice the
speed of his Huey.

"Red navigational lights aren't located in the front of an
aircraft," he said. "That's what was moving toward us. I don't
know what it was."

The incident was documented by witnesses on the ground. In UFO
lore the "Coyne Incident" is regarded as one of the most
reliable UFO sightings of all time.

"It caused a lot of hullabaloo," Jezzi said. "The first thing I
thought was those Commie bastards. What are they up to."

The next morning two of the other crew members, while being
questioned about the incident, sketched drawings of the cigar-
shaped craft they observed.

"They both came up with similar drawings," Jezzi said.

The magnetic compass in the Huey never worked right after the
incident and had to be replaced.

Rene Bouchard doesn't know what she saw in Galion about 60
minutes earlier that same evening.

"I was in high school. My brother was in junior high," she said.
"There had been a lot of sightings in the days and weeks before
that. Even the governor reported seeing something. We thought
we'd give it a try."

She and her brother walked out in the field behind their home
and started watching the sky.

"We saw a bunch of stuff that looked like it was maybe 30,000
feet in the air," she said. "But it wasn't anything spectacular.
Then I think we both put our heads down for some reason. That's
when we saw this brilliant white light. It was as bright as the
sun. I don't know what it was but it scared us. We ran for two
blocks until we got home."

Rene has since moved to Florida. Her brother is in California.
She's back in Galion today and plans to go out in that same bean
field to spend part of her evening.

"We really saw something that night," she said. "I don't know
what it was. But I'll be back there (tonight). I called my
brother and asked him to fly here so he could go with me. He
said no. I'm not expecting to see anything. But I'm going to be
there."

rkent@nncogannett.com

-----

Incident named after pilot

The following article appeared in the Nov. 4, 1973, edition of
the Mansfield News Journal. It was written by a United Press
International reporter.

CLEVELAND -- Army Reserve helicopter pilot Capt. Lawrence Coyne
is a military commander who doesn't believe in unidentified
flying objects (UFOs) or little green spacemen.

But after a near miss two weeks ago between his helicopter and a
"big, gray, metallic-looking" object in the sky over Mansfield,
he doesn't know what to think.

"I had to file an official report in detail to the Army on this
thing," he said.

"Coyne is a member of the 316th Medical Detachment stationed at
Cleveland Hopkins Airport. He was returning from Columbus at
11:10 p.m., Oct. 18, when the UFO showed up near where the Air
National Guard has a squadron of jet fighters based.

He said a check turned up that none of the unit's F-100 Super
Saber Jets were in the air when the UFO appeared.

Coyne said when he first encountered the UFO, his helicopter was
cruising at 2,500 feet. He had the controls set for a 20-degree
dive, but the craft climbed to 3,500 feet with no power.

"I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "There was no noise
or turbulence, either."

Coyne said a red light appeared on the eastern horizon, and was
first spotted by his crew chief, Sgt. Robert Yanacsek.

"The light was traveling in excess of 600 knots," Coyne said.
"It came from the horizon to our aircraft in about 10 seconds.
We were on a collision course."

The pilot said he put his helicopter into a dive.

"At 1,700 feet I braced myself for the impact with the other
craft," he said. "It was coming from our right side. I was
scared. There had been so little time to respond. The thing was
terrifically fast."

There was no crash.

"We looked up and saw it stopped right over us," Coyne said. "It
had a big, gray metallic-looking hull about 60 feet long.

"It was shaped like an airfoil or a streamlined fat cigar. There
was a red light on the front. The leading edge glowed red a
short distance back from the nose. There was a center dome. A
green light at the rear reflected on the hull."

Coyne said the green light swiveled like a spotlight and beamed
through the canopy of his craft, bathing the cabin in green
light.

He said as he and members of the crew stared at the craft his
helicopter began to climb without his guidance.

"I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "All controls were
set for a 20-degree dive. Yet we had climbed from 1,700 to 3,500
feet with no power in a couple of seconds with no g-forces or
other noticeable strains."

Coyne said the UFO finally moved off to the west and was gone.








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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:11:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:10:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Hatch


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:26:31 EDT
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
>>>Subject: Remote Viewing?

>><snip>

>>>Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
>>>Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
>>>will help our research, and the research of other authors.

>>"Help" authors and researchers is an extreme understatement!

>>Remote viewing is the most powerful way available to learn the
>>truth about UFOs, alien activity, government cover up, you name
>>it. I say _bravo_ and God speed and _thanks_ to you for raising
>>this issue.

>>It is absolutely _tragic_ that people in the West, seniour UFO
>>researchers, scientists, the media, heap ridicule on what is so
>>obviously the "next level" of scientific progress, instead of
>>taking advantage of this technology with all possible speed.

>In the past whenever I have heard about remote viewing, I am
>reminded of various pronouncements in the 1997-99 time frame.

>Anyways this is a very short list of a long list of tales and
>remote viewing from the supposed RV community that saw all of
>this. These tales were:

>1) There is/was a martian hive colony living underground in New
>Mexico and in 1996 the martians were going to come out and
>invade earth. Didn't happen.

<snip>

>Getting accurate information out of remote viewers is about as
>accurate as interpreting Nostradamus quatrains... it appears to
>be much easier to tie something to the past, then to accuratly
>predict the future.


Hello Robert and Eleanor

I tried an experiment in 'Remote Drinking' once at Wendover,
Utah. Thoroughly unsuccessful, I stepped a few feet back into
the (gawd blessed) state of Nevada.

I not only gained an hour of legal time, which hardly matters in
Nevada with its bars open 24-hours, but had the utter joy of
watching a Mormon craps dealer!!

Boy was that a hoot. Imagine a Nevada craps table stopped like a
dead clock while some guy counts eggs and sheep. "Now Clem, was
that you on the Big-Six box, or was it when that last guy threw
the dice?".

Truck roll by as if there were no state line at all.

Remote Viewing? No sign of that in my pretty sister state yet.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:05:33 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:21:48 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

>>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>>>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the
>>first place.

>Well, here's one possibility. The edges with foil strips on
>white paper are the only ones to fold into the corners when the
>targets are folded down for storage and shipping. Two of these
>(on the top of the target) have to have sticks inserted back
>into them when unfolded. It may have been their way of
>distinguishing edges to avoid confusion in the process.

This doesn't make any sense. They would have been able to
identify where the sticks are inserted by reading the assembly
drawing. These fellows usiing these targets were well trained.

>As I've tried to explain to you may times, why not? Get some
>foil/paper candy or chewing gum wrapper, e.g. (same stuff as on
>the radar targets), create a white fold-over strip, and secure
>the foil-to-foil edge with Scotch tape. Half of the tape sticks
>to the paper strip and half to the foil main surface. That works
>just fine. Try it. This isn't rocket science. These were
>balsa wood kites that only needed to hold together for a few
>hours max in flight.

Ah, so you finally agree that if you try to glue to foil pieces
together it just won't stick and that you have to use other
means to secure the foil to foil edge. Thank you, there is hope
for you. Now, where on the drawing or in any other descriptions
does it say to use scotch tape to secure the edges?

>I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
>bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
>35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
>on this edge.

Than how did you determine that the length of the stick is 35"
if you did not measure the height? Is this just a guess on your
part because if it is then your guessing the length in favor of
your theory aren't you? Your entire argument beyond this point
is useless because you are assuning the stick is 35".

>Note that two legs of these triangles are exactly the same
>length. Where's the other matching leg of the triangle to the
>35" stick in the FW photos? Why it's where the white strip is on
>the left hand side. It's missing its stick, probably having had
>it torn out. The torn bottom side of this triangle is the
>hypotenuse, and would be where the target was attached to the
>central axis framework. Again the sticks are missing along this
>edge, having been torn away.

You are assuming alot here. Your saying that the stick is 35" in
length without being able to measure it. Your saying that the
left hand side of the panel had a stick but you can't prove it.
Your saying that the bottom of the panel is 48" long but you
can't tell because part of it's missing.

You also in previous emails said that that you were able to
measure all the sticks and panels in the photos and detremine
that there is one complete rawin target in the photos, yet you
can't measure the height of one of the sticks and you can't
determine the width of the panel because part of it is missing.
So how are we suppose to believe that there is a complete target
in the photos based on your assumptions and calculations?  Are
we suppose to accept your analysis on blind faith? I don't think
so.

>I think you missed my sarcasm. You tend to have an overly
>literal mind, perhaps the result of engineering training. I've
>seen this trait in other engineers, who develop tunnel vision
>and ignore the bigger picture. If it ain't in the specs (or they
>simply think it isn't) it either doesn't exist or it doesn't
>belong there.

>E.g., when the engineers designed the BART transportation system
>in the Bay Area, the specs never mentioned that the sensors
>giving the central computer the position of the trains were
>supposed to work in wet weather. So the engineers didn't design
>it that way, even though (duhhh!) the Bay Area gets pretty darn
>wet in the winter time.  First time it rained the sensors failed
>and the trains "disappeared" from the system.

Now you have to bash engineers to make your point. First of all
David, I am a Certified Engineering Technologist. So if your
going bash someones credentials at least get the credentials
right.

>I'm not going to take your word for it, because you have a
>tendency to not know what you are talking about, such as your
>nonsensical argument about the bottom edge of the main triangle
>in the FW photos being too long. This is _not_ the corresponding
>triangle edge to he one attached to the stick in the photo. The
>corresponding edge is where the white strip is, but sans stick.

I was simply attempting to show that based on the number of
carpet stripes that can be counted across the bottom of the
panel, the assumption of the stick being 35" doesn't wash. The
fact is, which you have already stated, you hadn't measured the
height and therefore assumed the height of the stick is 35"? It
would appear that your analysis is severly flawed right from the
starting gate.

>Hopefully this will be my last post on this nonsense, which is
>taking up way too much of my time. The arguments that Andrew
>LeVoie and Neil Morris have made concerning radar targets and
>other matters and not only dead wrong but embarrassing. I'm
>sorry this dirty laundry had to be aired in public, but I felt I
>had to respond to the misinformation.

I also would appreciate it if you would spell my last name
correctly. It's "Lavoie" not LeVoie.


Regards,

Andrew Lavoie







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:42:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:15:28 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morton


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:37:48 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:08:47 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

<snip>

>What is the federal case here? There is no federal case.
>It would appear to me that you can't see the trees from
>the forest, and I'm using the saying backwards.

Andrew,

You should write a book about this. I have a catchy title you
can use:

"Roswell: The fantastic case of the RAWIN target that crashed on
top of the debris from a crashed UFO, partially identified by
Gen. Ramey as being hexagonal in shape (which it wasn't when
laid out on the floor), and fully identified by only one person
on Base (CWO Newton) as a RAWIN, even though Newton was
incorrect since it was not pure RAWIN, but rather a mixture of a
RAWIN and alien safety belt buckles."

By Andrew Lavoie, co-author of the titles:

Specs Are My Reality
Your Photos Don't Prove Anything
My World of Total Truth
Reading Literally for Complete Comprehension
Technical Writing For Logic and Clarity, Sort Of
Trees are Trees.


Dave Morton








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                       Re: The Phoenix Lights - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:00:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:34:51 -0400
Subject: Re: The Phoenix Lights - Kaeser


>From: Geoff Richardson <geoff@fastdog.karoo.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:50:27 +0100
>Subject: The Phoenix Lights

>The series of incidents which took place in the skies over
>Phoenix, Arizona, in March 1997, are covered in some detail at
>"The WHY? Files" -  See: The Phoenix Lights

>http://www.thewhyfiles.co.uk


The incident is also well covered by Dr. Bruce Maccabee's web
site:

http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights1.html








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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:37:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Hall


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
>>Subject: Remote Viewing?

>>Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
>>Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
>>will help our research, and the research of other authors.

>Thierry -

>"Help" authors and researchers is an extreme understatement!

>Remote viewing is the most powerful way available to learn the
>truth about UFOs, alien activity, government cover up, you name
>it. I say _bravo_ and God speed and _thanks_ to you for raising
>this issue.

>It is absolutely _tragic_ that people in the West, seniour UFO
>researchers, scientists, the media, heap ridicule on what is so
>obviously the "next level" of scientific progress, instead of
>taking advantage of this technology with all possible speed.


Eleanor,

Which "remote viewers" do you believe? Presumably you are
familiar with the Stanford experiments which basically proved
that sometimes some people seem to make "hits," but who, when,
and how reliably is very uncertain. Ignotiius per ignotium.

 - Dick








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                        Re: Antonio Huneeus? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:56:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:17:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Antonio Huneeus? - Ledger


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:46:09 -0400
>Subject: Antonio Huneeus?

>Does anyone in the vast ufoland have the email address for
>Antonio Huneeus? I used to have it.

>Then I got the "blaster" which blasted everything, including
>email addresses which I have had for years but have no longer.


Hi Bruce,

I talked with Tony for some hours during the Halifax UFO
conference of last weekend. We were both presenting. I got his
email and I'm darned if I can find it again. If you get it will
you forward it offlist to me?


Best,

Don Ledger








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   Oct > Oct 19

                        Michigan Sighting - 10-16-03

From: Todd Lemire <webmaster@michiganufos.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:02:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:55:40 -0400
Subject: Michigan Sighting - 10-16-03


Readers,

The following online report came from http://www.michiganufos.com

Witness identity has been removed.

Todd Lemire

------begin report-------

SightingDate:        10/16/03
SightingTime:        21:30
SightingDuration:    2 minutes
SightingCity:        Fraser, Mi
Witnesses:           6
Shape:               Light
NumberofObjects:     2
Lights On Object:    Yes
Aircraft:            Yes
Date Reported:       Friday October 17, 2003
Time Reported:       04:17:33 PM (Local)

Full description:

As I pulled into the Fraser Meijer (15 and utica rd.), the
parking lot was pretty empty, but there was a full size van with
a family loading up groceries.  All 5 of  them were staring into
the sky, they were at a stand still.

I parked two spaces over from them, and when I got out, they
asked me what that was in the sky.  "its been there for a few
minutes."  "the small light keeps moving around the big one."
What I was looking at was a large light shining in our
direction.  it was about a mile north of me, and about a half
mile up. These distances are, of course, approximations.  There
was a smaller light hanging out down and to the left of it.
 Moving a bit.  Both lights were very slowly moving towards us.
 But very, very slowly.  After about a minute, they turned and
flew away. That was it.

So you know, this location is 10 miles from Selfridge Air
Base....









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                 Re: Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle -

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:01:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:11:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle -


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:37:07 -0700
>Subject: Recap: Phoenix Lights Flying Triangle - 13 March 1997

>What further analysis on this dramatic series of sightings has


Please see my "Phoenix Lights Event Sequence" at:

http://www.skywatch-research.org/ufo/Phoenix%20Lights%20Event%20Sequence.htm

or for a more in-depth look, my book title "The Phoenix Lights
Mystery".


-Bill Hamilton







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                              A little Question

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:14:33 -0400
Subject: A little Question


Hello UpDates Readers:


This may seem unkind and/or unwelcome, that depends.

Lets suppose that some alien race is surveying and/or monitoring
Earth for any reason imaginable. I can think of lots of
reasons.

This could have been going on for years, decades, centuries or
longer, it doesn't matter right now.

Assuming this some sort of reconnaissance;

How much sense does it make for such any alien race, set of
probes or anything similar to put on a light show over Phoenix
Arizona?

Try to imagine the spy chiefs of the 1950s, the Rosenbergs for
example, waving Soviet flags from atop 4rth of July whirlygigs
and ferris wheels shouting "Yahhdyyaddahh!". Unlikely? I agree.

What interests me more (I hope I am not completely alone here)
are the rare sightings of craft that did _not_ pay this or that
agency for fireworks or publicity.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = = =







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:10:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:37:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:45:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
>>only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
>>getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
>>further information, Jerry?

>Changing your story, eh, John? Only _one_ witness now?

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've just returned from a
family wedding and a lovely holiday in Bonny Scotland.

>Next time around, I imagine you'll be telling us there were _no_
>witnesses. We _do_ know what sort of witness there is none of,
>as it happens.

Well, yes, OK, you've got me bang to rights, guv. There were
actually three witnesses who gave direct accounts of what they
claimed to see. Still a long way off the 48 (J. Clark) or 150
(C. Lorenzen) that are supposed to make this a "multi-witness"
case.

>We do know that not a single informant, of the
>many who were on the ship on that memorable day and therefore in
>a position to discredit -- devastatingly, even to nonpelicanists
>-- the photographer's (and others') testimony, has ever stepped
>forward.

And more to the point we do not have a single statement, direct
comment or report from anyone on the ship who was not a close
colleage of the photographer Barauna.

>That fantasy figure of every pelicanist's wet dream has now had
>nearly half a century to make his presence known. Perhaps
>pelicanists should now start praying for divine intervention
>before this fabled missing informant is no longer among us.

And the fantasy independent witness who is presumably Jerry's
wet dream (Really! Not in front of the ladies!) has also failed
to turn up in fifty years. Presumably the reamining 45 (or 147
if you believe the Lorenzens) have also all fallen off their
perches!

>In any event, patience is the soul of virtue, at least when it
>comes to _real_ developments re Trindade. These, it is clear, do
>not involve the expectation that an informant who will tell the
>pelicanists what they want to hear will ever step forward.

I wonder why Jerry feels that I should be expecting a non-
witness to suddenly put in an appearance, when he is clearly not
bothered that no further witnesses to such a spectacular event
have ever turned up?

>Could
>it be that this happens to be so because no such person exists?
>Perish the thought. And one would think that if nothing happened
>that day in front of all those nonexistent witnesses, it would
>be _so_ easy to prove.

Did you really mean to write "And one would think that if
nothing happened that day in front of all those nonexistent
witnesses, it would be _so_ easy to prove". I'm still trying to
work that one out!

Unless we have, after fifty years, one direct first person
report from a fourth witness on board the Almirante Saldhana,
who actually says that he *did* see something, I think the
evidence points strongly to the case being a hoax by Barauna and
a small group of his friends. (Incidently, in a previous
posting, Jerry took me to task for calling the other witnesses
"friends" of barauna, on the grounds that they all belonged to
the same diving club. In fact they were described as friends in
the original reporsts)

>Meantime, stay tuned.

Why are we waiting, oh, why are we waiting ... (repeat, ad
nauseam)

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:45:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:39:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - White


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:26:31 EDT
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

<snip>

>Getting accurate information out of remote viewers is about as
>accurate as interpreting Nostradamus quantrains....it appears to
>be much easier to tie something to the past, then to accuratly
>predict the future.

Isn't it great we can handle differences of opinion. While some
continue to ridicule the not always perfect remote viewing
results (thus throwing out the baby with the bath water), others
can try remote viewing which, in spite of the lack of
perfection, has also produced striking results and continues to
do so.

Science is a long trail of discoveries which were never
"'guaranteed', either.

It's kind of like some folks take uncertain paths because they
are focussed on the goal, while others want to keep within
completely tidy boundaries. Both make significant contributions
over time.


Eleanor White







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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:01:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - White


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

<snip>

>Which "remote viewers" do you believe? Presumably you are
>familiar with the Stanford experiments which basically proved
>that sometimes some people seem to make "hits," but who, when,
>and how reliably is very uncertain. Ignotiius per ignotium.


I'm not well-versed in remote viewing, Dick. However, I do know
that out of our group of about 2,000 souls who are in some kind
of covert experiment we call "mind control", no one in the 50
year history had ever been able to get the in-home, in-community
experimentation stopped, though a few have seemingly stopped
with no action by the targetted person.

Until one of our members, who is an accomplished remote viewer
and hypnotherapist, was able to remote view a significant group
of about 20 individuals in her community who were responsible
for her day and night torment, electronic and otherwise.

This lady wrote each one a formal letter, describing in detail
their activities, and simply listed the penalties for the crimes
they were committing from the statutes applicable where she
lives. No threats of any kind. Once the letters were delivered,
the harassment stopped.

I've personally had a couple of welcome tips from a local
psychic (not a commercial psychic, rather an acquaintance) which
proved right on the money.

Another thing we learn from our, (in my case 23 years of) this
hellish, experience is that government and big business are
relentless in trashing the life of anyone who tries to bring
their crimes to light. We get our best evidence in the form of
videos, hard copy and electronic documents and images routinely
stolen and trashed. More than that, we hear so-called "experts"
go on the air and tell things that, to be diplomatic, one might
call "less than accurate".

Now remote viewing is leading edge stuff. We would not be
surprised if "established organizations" published "less than
accurate" data to keep the real extent of the RV capabilities
from being taken seriously or widely known.

If on the one hand, we have seen amazing successes, and on the
other, a prestigious company or university "proves" it's all
nonsense, you can forgive us for not being sure that such a
prestigious entity is on the up and up. I believe that remote
viewing is a prime candidate for cover up activity, just as UFOs
are.

Again - no one is forced to take remote viewing seriously, but
from what I've seen of it, that may be very shortsighted.


Eleanor White







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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:35:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:46:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - White


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

Dick and list - sorry for all that gab - this death watch for
Terri Schindler Schiavo, being tortured to death while
fully conscious in Florida, is kind of upsetting and makes
it hard to be brief.

Here's a much more concise way to say it all:

Remote viewing is not 100% accurate, but it is accurate enough
to provide _clues_ for further, more rigorous investigation by
other methods. Clues which are just not available from any other
source.


Eleanor White







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                 Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:33:45 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:50:56 -0400
Subject: Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Harrison


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:48:36 +1000
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Subject: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003


>Australian Centre for UFO Studies
>Issue #1 - October 2003

>ACUFOS newsletters will also be available on line at
>www.acufos.asn.au

>In this issue:

>1. ACUFOS web site launch
>2. New ACUFOS Journal "UFO Quest"
>3. Disclosure Australia Project
>4. 2004 National UFO Conference
>5. Tasmanian UFO Statistics 2003
>6. Australian UFO Directory
>7. Special Events

<snip>


Dear ACUFOS

I would like to point out a few slight mistake in your Quest
journal re the information with regard to the Australian
Disclosure project and your Australian listings on your webpage.

The Australian Disclosure project was launched by Keith
Basterfield yes but it was initiated by myself the Australian
UFO Research Network and independent researchers some two and
half years ago, not by AURA as stated in your Quest journal "no
disrespect intended".

It is very important to present the correct information in a
publication to the public and other researchers.

Please could you have the correct information placed in your
Quest journal which I have taken the liberty to enclosed along
with an link where the correct information can be found.

http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/

Correct information is

Introduction:
The Australian Disclosure Project
http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/

An Australian Disclosure Project has been established. It will
be known as 'Disclosure Australia' for short, or by its full
title, 'The Australian UFO Research Network Disclosure Project'.

The Project is auspiced by the Australian UFO Research Network,
PO Box 738, Beaudesert, Queensland, 4285, with an Adelaide based
Secretariat, operated by the Australian UFO Research
Association, PO Box 786, North Adelaide, South Australia 5006.
The Australian UFO Research Association was formed in early
2003. It consists mainly of current or retired professional
business people, who have a serious and deep interest in
researching the UFO phenomenon. It operates using a business
model. Within South Australia it has already achieved a
reputation as a creative, dynamic, energetic association of
researchers who deliver what they promise.

The Project=B9s Mission Statement is:

To ascertain the extent of official Australian Government
knowledge of the UFO phenomenon; then to document both this and
civilian knowledge on the subject.

For further information contact AURA media liaison officers:
Keith Basterfield Mobile 041 141 7594
uforesearchersa@yahoo.com.au
Debbie Payne Mobile 0413 800 143 debbiep@adam.com.au
-----------------------------------
Extract from Quest journal which is incorrect
Disclosure Australia Project
The Disclosure Australia Project was launched at the 3rd
Australian National UFO Conference held on the 14th &
15th June 2003 in Brisbane, Australia. The purpose of the
project is to ascertain the extent of official Australian Gov-ernment
knowledge of the UFO phenomenon; then to docu-ment
both this and civilian knowledge on the subject.
This project was launched by Keith Basterfield on behalf of
the Australian UFO Research Association (AURA) located in
Adelaide, Australia and the Australian UFO Research Network.
Project updates are available via on-line newsletters avail-able
at http://disclosure.freewebpage.org
For further information contact AURA media liaison officers:
Keith Basterfield Mobile 041 141 7594
uforesearchersa@yahoo.com.au
Debbie Payne Mobile 0413 800 143
debbiep@adam.com.au


Could please correction our listing on ACUFOS webpage
The Australian UFO Research Network

http://www.acufos.asn.au/about/ausorgs.html
Australian UFO Research Network (AUFORN)
P.O.Box 738, Beaudesert Q 4285
Ph: 5544 6888 Fax: 5544 6877
www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn
auforn@hypermax.net.au

(Mobile: 0419 141918 ( incorrect phone number )
this number belongs to a guy called Dean ??
this guys going to get very upset if UFO calls are
going to his mobile. "Please list do not call this number"

(Please could you list our 1800 77 22 88 freecall number

If you would like an update of all Australian Listing please
feel free to check this page Australian UFO Groups & Independent
Researchers Directory at this web address.

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/AustralianListings.html
--------

Thank you

Regards Diane
National Director AUFORN


--


Regards Diane Harrison
National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@hypermax.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@hypermax.net.au
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com







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                  Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Christol

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 23:36:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Christol


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:24:56 -0700
>Subject: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 21-23

>UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy.
>by Fr. Thomas Kulp (Wisconsin).

<snip>

>There is not a single UFO incident on record that cannot be
>explained as a demonic deception or apparition.

>What is not always clear is the motivating purpose behind some
>of these bizarre manifestations. For example, I must admit that
>the whole breeding experiment scenario baffles me, except that
>these incidents do confuse and profoundly frighten the victims,
>thereby opening the human mind a bit more to the intrusion of
>the demonic.

>What does seem clear, from a spiritual perspective, is that the
>ultimate purpose of the UFO phenomenon is to help prepare the
>collective consciousness of the human race for the coming of
>Antichrist as foretold in the Bible.

>All signs point to the fact that the end of human history is at
>hand. The final stage is to be the universal reign of the
>Antichrist, who will create a new world order and a false one-
> world religion. Those who through demonic deception will
>worship the Antichrist will be lost, while all others will be
>persecuted.

>A prophetic leader, Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, wrotte in the
>last century, "*The miracles of Antichrist will be chiefly
>manifested in the aerial real* where Satan chiefly has his
>dominion*. The signs will act most of all on the sense of sight,
>charming and deceiving. Again, the Antichrist will even make
>fire to come down out of Heaven upon the Earth in the sight of
>men."

>I submit that the demonic explanation for the UFO phenomenon is
>inherently no less likely than any other explanation that has
>been offered so far.

>If we are open-minded enough to at least accept the possibility
>of demons, then a great deal that is presently obscure becomes
>understandable.

>There is no lack of evidence and testimony regarding the reality
>of demons in Christian spiritual literature during the past two
>millenia. We should be most foolish to discard it all as mere
>antiquated relics of the past, while accepting as gospel the
>myriad New Age teachings that have permeated our society over
>recent decades.

>Now, more than ever, it is imperative that we be wise and sober,
>discerning the spirits to make sure that they are truly of God,
>refusing to be led astray by the deceptive illusions of the Evil
>One.

>NOTE BY EDITOR, FSR.
>*See my article, What St. Paul is actually reported to have said,
>in FSR 42/2.



So, Terry, are you saying that the Fatama Incident was probably
a demonic manifestation as well?


Mike







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                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:11:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:07:11 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:05:33 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:21:48 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:06:44 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

>>>Second, you mentioned that not all of the edges have a white
>>>strip. why? Why would you have foil to foil joints in the
>>>first place.

>>Well, here's one possibility. The edges with foil strips on
>>white paper are the only ones to fold into the corners when
the
>>targets are folded down for storage and shipping. Two of these
>>(on the top of the target) have to have sticks inserted back
>>into them when unfolded. It may have been their way of
>>distinguishing edges to avoid confusion in the process.

>This doesn't make any sense. They would have been able to
>identify where the sticks are inserted by reading the assembly
>drawing. These fellows usiing these targets were well trained.

It would be like color-coding to avoid mistakes. When the
targets were under construction, it could serve as a reminder
not to insert and glue sticks into two of the sleeves, and also
serve as a reminder of which edges needed to be folded inward
when the target was folded down for packing. I'm speculating
here, but you asked for a possible reason why they might have
both foil and paper strips on the targets, so here is one
possibility.

Overall, your argument has been that you personally can't
understand why they would do things that way, which is besides
the point, since they _did_ do things that way, whether their
rationale is obvious or not. I've pointed out that the white
strips were clearly shown in the construction details and also
show up in photos. Your irrational rejoinder to this proof-of-
point is to claim the photos and engineering schematic were
cleverly altered by the Air Force years before you were to make
an issue out of it.

>>As I've tried to explain to you may times, why not? Get some
>>foil/paper candy or chewing gum wrapper, e.g. (same stuff as on
>>the radar targets), create a white fold-over strip, and secure
>>the foil-to-foil edge with Scotch tape. Half of the tape sticks
>>to the paper strip and half to the foil main surface. That works
>>just fine. Try it. This isn't rocket science. These were
>>balsa wood kites that only needed to hold together for a few
>>hours max in flight.

>Ah, so you finally agree that if you try to glue to foil pieces
>together it just won't stick and that you have to use other
>means to secure the foil to foil edge.

When have I ever said otherwise? All along I've been making the
point that you don't need to glue foil-to-foil to make the white
paper foil-over strips. They could be made in other ways, such
as taping the seam. A spec forbidding gluing foil-to-foil does
not forbid the manufacture of white strips.

>Thank you, there is hope for you.

Maybe if you actually read what I've been saying you wouldn't
need to misrepresent it.

>Now, where on the drawing or in any other descriptions
>does it say to use scotch tape to secure the edges?

Where does it forbid it? It also has a taping instruction to
secure various loose ends, which you yourself presented here. It
says to tape to paper "whenever possible," which you, as usual,
distorted into an instruction that forbade the white strips,
which it doesn't. The white strip would have a seam that was
half paper and half foil. Half the tape would be on paper; half
on foil. Nothing in the specs forbids this.

Again, your argument is based on you just not liking white
strips being part of the construction details because it flies
in the face of your agenda to show that the Ramey debris was
"anomalous" and not from a radar target. Therefore, you have
tried to rationalize them away using all manner of contorted
logic, including misinterpreted assembly instructions and
supposedly altered photos and schematics.

>>I haven't measured the height and it is also torn along the
>>bottom. The attached stick along the right edge measures about
>>35", exactly what one would expect for an ML307 framework stick
>>on this edge.

>Than how did you determine that the length of the stick is 35"
>if you did not measure the height?

First of all, you don't need to measure the height to determined
the length, not the way I did it.

Second, as you should have gathered from our e-mails and phone
conversations 2 years back, I did a 3-D reconstruction using a
computer ray tracer. The stick lengths were determined by
finding lengths that produced matches in the computer-generated
image and the original photos.

> Is this just a guess on your
>part because if it is then your guessing the length in favor of
>your theory aren't you? Your entire argument beyond this point
>is useless because you are assuning the stick is 35".

I'm not "guessing" or "assuming" anything. I did an actual
measurement.

Since you yourself said you ended up with 36", this is another
one of your pointless "so what?" arguments. We both agree on the
length, within measurement error. The measurements, including
yours, match exactly with what would be expected for a stick
from an ML-307 radar target. So what's the problem?

>>Note that two legs of these triangles are exactly the same
>>length. Where's the other matching leg of the triangle to the
>>35" stick in the FW photos? Why it's where the white strip is on
>>the left hand side. It's missing its stick, probably having had
>>it torn out. The torn bottom side of this triangle is the
>>hypotenuse, and would be where the target was attached to the
>>central axis framework. Again the sticks are missing along this
>>edge, having been torn away.

>You are assuming alot here. Your saying that the stick is 35"
in
>length without being able to measure it.

It's amazing how irrationally your mind works. You merely
assert that I made no measurement and am just guessing, even
though I told you exactly what I was doing 2 years ago.
Furthermore, your argument makes zero sense, since you are
getting essentially the same measurement, which by some amazing
"coincidence" also happens to match just what you would expect
from an ML-307 rawin target.

> Your saying that the
> left hand side of the panel had a stick but you can't prove
it.

What do you mean by "prove it?" This is a typical debating
tactic of somebody who really has no argument.

The _evidence_ is I have measured the _approximate_ length of
the floppy, torn white strip on the left side of the triangle,
and it is approximately 35" as well. I consider this accurate
to within only 2 or 3" since I am dealing with something that
isn't flattened and straight. But it is accurate enough and
exactly what one would expect for a symmetrical, triangular
rawin target panel, except for people who are pushing an agenda
and in deep denial over the obvious.

>Your saying that the bottom of the panel is 48" long but you
>can't tell because part of it's missing.

Your point? Weren't you the one originally making claims about
this side saying it was too long to come from a rawin target?
How did _you_ determine that?

It is obviously the long side, or hypotenuse of one of the
isosceles right trianglar foil-paper panels making up a rawin
target. I could measure its approximate length, but don't see
the point, since you accuse me of guessing in any case, blow it
off, and dive right back into your nonsense that this isn't a
rawin target panel. I have previously spent many, many hours
trying to answer all your questions and straighten things out,
and it almost always turns out to be a complete waste of time.

>You also in previous emails said that that you were able to
>measure all the sticks and panels in the photos and detremine
>that there is one complete rawin target in the photos, yet you
>can't measure the height of one of the sticks and you can't
>determine the width of the panel because part of it is missing.

The height of the stick is irrelevant as is the exact width of
the panel bottom. It's the length of the visible stick, which,
by both our measurements, is perfectly consistent with what
would be expected from an ML307 radar target. As usual, you are
trying to magnify the insignificant into something of earth-
shaking importance.

>So how are we suppose to believe that there is a complete target
>in the photos based on your assumptions and calculations? Are
>we suppose to accept your analysis on blind faith? I don't think
>so.

My current conclusions base on stick measurements and foil/paper
panel reconstructions are:

1. The foil/paper debris is consistent with and probably fully
accounted for by only one radar target

2. The intact and broken sticks either associated with the foil-
paper panels or with foil-paper debris still attached are also
fully accounted for by one radar target.

3. There may be two or three extra, intact sticks, but these are
all "clean," having no attached foil-paper or markings (as would
be expected if they had the foil-paper covering glued to them).
These I believe could be the extra sticks included in the 24
rawins-to-a-box that were not inserted into the edges of the
targets until after they were unfolded (the targets could not be
folded down if the sticks were left there).

Thus the debris is fully accounted for by only one target plus
maybe a few extra sticks. Does something like the foil-paper add
up to _exactly_ one target and maybe not a little less or
slightly more? That is impossible to determine for certain
because the target was torn up and some parts weren't completely
visible in the photos. Its reassembling a jigsaw puzzle from
photos instead of having the pieces in front of you. But there
is certainly no evidence of extra foil-paper panels in the
photos, as would be expected from a Mogul crash if Mack Brazel
had gathered up the remains of more than one radar reflector.

Do you have to accept my conclusions on blind faith? Of course
not. You are free to continue peddling nonsense, including your
own 36" stick measurement somehow being inconsistent with a
rawin, or the rawins not having white strips when they did.

The following concerned an allegation by Andrew Lavoie that the
Air Force had cooked up a falsified rawin engineering schematic
that they published in their 1995 Roswell report. These
visionary AF debunkers did this, allegedly, to mislead us years
later about the rawin targets having white edge strips, so that
we would think that the object in Ramey's office, with the same
white edge strips, actually came from a radar target. I made
some sarcastic remark about the AF falsifying the schematic, and
Andrew, much to my amazement, took it literally, and claimed
that I finally agreed with his position.

>>I think you missed my sarcasm. You tend to have an overly
>>literal mind, perhaps the result of engineering training. I've
>>seen this trait in other engineers, who develop tunnel vision
>>and ignore the bigger picture. If it ain't in the specs (or
they
>>simply think it isn't) it either doesn't exist or it doesn't
>>belong there.

>Now you have to bash engineers to make your point. First of all
>David, I am a Certified Engineering Technologist. So if your
>going bash someones credentials at least get the credentials
>right.

If I really wanted to bash you publicly, I could reveal other of
your absolute representations to me that were wrong or complete
nonsense. Remember, e.g., your bogus Ramey radiator height that
you clung to for weeks, all based your misreading of the
radiator spec sheet which actually showed other radiator heights
for different models? But, as usual, you blew off all evidence
pointing to you being wrong (such as the radiator being shorter
than the chair next to it). Your argument was the spec sheets
never lie, and I couldn't disuade you. Finally you reread your
own spec sheet and realized you had overlooked the other
numbers.

Most unfortunately, that's the way it's been right from the
beginning. There are a number of other examples of where you got
these fixed, wrong ideas and couldn't be shaken loose from them.
Do I need to spell them all out publicly? Whether the reason is
overly rigid engineering training or something else, all I know
is that I'm simply sick and tired of it. Your whole crusade to
disprove a radar target in Ramey's office is a waste of
everybody's time.

>>I'm not going to take your word for it, because you have a
>>tendency to not know what you are talking about, such as your
>>nonsensical argument about the bottom edge of the main triangle
>>in the FW photos being too long. This is _not_ the corresponding
>>triangle edge to he one attached to the stick in the photo. The
>>corresponding edge is where the white strip is, but sans stick.

>I was simply attempting to show that based on the number of
>carpet stripes that can be counted across the bottom of the
>panel, the assumption of the stick being 35" doesn't wash.

What the hell are you talking about? First of all, I didn't
"assume" the stick was 35" - I measured it.

Second of all, you yourself reported you got 36", so how is it
that 35" "doesn't wash?" Do you understand the concept of
different results agreeing within measurement error?

>The fact is, which you have already stated, you hadn't measured
>the height and therefore assumed the height of the stick is 35"?

The fact is you are inventing your "facts," as usual. Do you
also understand the difference between the words "height" and
"length?" I said I didn't measure the _height_of the stick
(because you asked the question whether I had measured the
height). Instead I said that I had measured the _length_ of the
stick (which is the only important thing anyway -- the height of
the elevated stick and attached foil triangle is a trivia item
and doesn't really matter).

From my statement that I didn't measure the _height_, you
somehow leaped to the conclusion that I merely "assumed" the
length was 35". This is highly typical of the illogical ways in
which you argue.

>It would appear that your analysis is severly flawed right from the
>starting gate.

It would appear that you again don't know what you are talking
about.

>>Hopefully this will be my last post on this nonsense, which is
>>taking up way too much of my time.

Apparently not, but it definitely will be for some time after
this post.

>>The arguments that Andrew
>>LeVoie and Neil Morris have made concerning radar targets and
>>other matters and not only dead wrong but embarrassing. I'm
>>sorry this dirty laundry had to be aired in public, but I felt
I
>>had to respond to the misinformation.

>I also would appreciate it if you would spell my last name
>correctly. It's "Lavoie" not LeVoie.

My apologies. Since we are airing grievances, I would appreciate
it if you wouldn't grossly misrepresent what I've said or done.

I would also appreciate it if you wouldn't constantly
misrepresent the evidence and dream up outrageous conspiracy
theories to advance your anti-rawin target agenda.

I'm no friend of the AF debunkers, but your charges that they
cooked up a misleading engineering schematic and then somehow
altered old photographs and a movie to make us falsely believe
(years later) that there were white strips on rawins are
completely ridiculous.


David Rudiak







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   Oct > Oct 19

               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:13 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:08:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
>Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

>"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
>NOTICE.

Hi Terry,

What's a "D" Notice. Is that particular to UK broadcasters where
an an advisory is issued by the Defence Department[s] re
sensitive military assets?


Best,

Don Ledger







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                               Coyne Revisited

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:44:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:13:08 -0400
Subject: Coyne Revisited


Saturday, October 18, 2003

UFO still puzzles 30 years later
Soldiers encountered something strange in 'Coyne
Incident'

By Russ Kent
News JournalNewspaper Network of Central Ohio

MANSFIELD -- Thirty years ago tonight, strange things were
happening in the skies over north central Ohio.

A close encounter in Mansfield, that has since become known as
"The Coyne Incident," is still raising eyebrows among believers
and UFO investigators.

That evening, in a soybean field on the west side of Galion,
Rene Boucher and her brother Brad encountered a bright light in
the sky that has lured her from Florida for another sojourn into
that field.

It was about 11 p.m. on Oct. 18, 1973, when an Army Reserve
helicopter came perilously close to colliding with an
unidentified flying object.

Arrigo "Rick" Jezzi, 56, who now lives in Cincinnati, was flying
the Huey helicopter that night. Three decades later, he is still
not sure what happened.

Jezzi was one of four members of an Army Reserve unit based at
Hopkins Airport in Cleveland on board. The crew was en route to
Cleveland from Columbus.

"Capt. Larry Coyne was the pilot," Jezzi said. "I was in the
left seat, actually flying the Huey at the time. We were near
Mansfield flying at 2,500 to 3,000 feet."

John Healey and Robert Yanacsek were in the back of the Huey,
near a cargo door with a Plexiglas window.

"One of the guys in the back reported a red light. He said it
looked like an aircraft light on the right horizon," Jezzi said.
"I couldn't see it."

Jezzi was flying from the left seat. On the other side of the
Huey there was a 12-foot section of fuselage between the side
window and the cargo doors. He figures the red light was in his
blind spot.

"Then I heard 'I think its coming toward us'," Jezzi said. "The
next thing I knew Larry took control of the throttle. We went
into a maneuver, a controlled free fall. We dropped about 2,000
feet."

Jezzi said if Coyne had not made the drastic maneuver there
would have been a collision.

"It took just a couple of seconds," Jezzi said. "I remember
looking up through the ceiling and I saw a white light moving
over top of us. I followed it to the left horizon where it
disappeared."

Jezzi isn't sure what he saw. It was like no aircraft he'd ever
seen. He guessed it was traveling at least 500 knots, twice the
speed of his Huey.

"Red navigational lights aren't located in the front of an
aircraft," he said. "That's what was moving toward us. I don't
know what it was."

The incident was documented by witnesses on the ground. In UFO
lore the "Coyne Incident" is regarded as one of the most
reliable UFO sightings of all time.

"It caused a lot of hullabaloo," Jezzi said. "The first thing I
thought was those Commie bastards. What are they up to."

The next morning two of the other crew members, while being
questioned about the incident, sketched drawings of the cigar-
shaped craft they observed.

"They both came up with similar drawings," Jezzi said.

The magnetic compass in the Huey never worked right after the
incident and had to be replaced.

Rene Bouchard doesn't know what she saw in Galion about 60
minutes earlier that same evening.

"I was in high school. My brother was in junior high," she said.
"There had been a lot of sightings in the days and weeks before
that. Even the governor reported seeing something. We thought
we'd give it a try."

She and her brother walked out in the field behind their home
and started watching the sky.

"We saw a bunch of stuff that looked like it was maybe 30,000
feet in the air," she said. "But it wasn't anything spectacular.
Then I think we both put our heads down for some reason. That's
when we saw this brilliant white light. It was as bright as the
sun. I don't know what it was but it scared us. We ran for two
blocks until we got home."

Rene has since moved to Florida. Her brother is in California.
She's back in Galion today and plans to go out in that same bean
field to spend part of her evening.

"We really saw something that night," she said. "I don't know
what it was. But I'll be back there (tonight). I called my
brother and asked him to fly here so he could go with me. He
said no. I'm not expecting to see anything. But I'm going to be
there."

-----


Incident named after pilot

The following article appeared in the Nov. 4, 1973, edition of
the Mansfield News Journal. It was written by a United Press
International reporter.

CLEVELAND -- Army Reserve helicopter pilot Capt. Lawrence Coyne
is a military commander who doesn't believe in unidentified
flying objects (UFOs) or little green spacemen.

But after a near miss two weeks ago between his helicopter and a
"big, gray, metallic-looking" object in the sky over Mansfield,
he doesn't know what to think.

"I had to file an official report in detail to the Army on this
thing," he said.

"Coyne is a member of the 316th Medical Detachment stationed at
Cleveland Hopkins Airport. He was returning from Columbus at
11:10 p.m., Oct. 18, when the UFO showed up near where the Air
National Guard has a squadron of jet fighters based.

He said a check turned up that none of the unit's F-100 Super
Saber Jets were in the air when the UFO appeared.

Coyne said when he first encountered the UFO, his helicopter was
cruising at 2,500 feet. He had the controls set for a 20-degree
dive, but the craft climbed to 3,500 feet with no power.

"I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "There was no noise
or turbulence, either."

Coyne said a red light appeared on the eastern horizon, and was
first spotted by his crew chief, Sgt. Robert Yanacsek.

"The light was traveling in excess of 600 knots," Coyne said.
"It came from the horizon to our aircraft in about 10 seconds.
We were on a collision course."

The pilot said he put his helicopter into a dive.

"At 1,700 feet I braced myself for the impact with the other
craft," he said. "It was coming from our right side. I was
scared. There had been so little time to respond. The thing was
terrifically fast."

There was no crash.

"We looked up and saw it stopped right over us," Coyne said. "It
had a big, gray metallic-looking hull about 60 feet long.

"It was shaped like an airfoil or a streamlined fat cigar. There
was a red light on the front. The leading edge glowed red a
short distance back from the nose. There was a center dome. A
green light at the rear reflected on the hull."

Coyne said the green light swiveled like a spotlight and beamed
through the canopy of his craft, bathing the cabin in green
light.

He said as he and members of the crew stared at the craft his
helicopter began to climb without his guidance.

"I had made no attempt to pull up," he said. "All controls were
set for a 20-degree dive. Yet we had climbed from 1,700 to 3,500
feet with no power in a couple of seconds with no g-forces or
other noticeable strains."

Coyne said the UFO finally moved off to the west and was gone.

End of article

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo







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                        Re: Remote Viewing? - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:03:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:15:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Fleming


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
>Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:37:23 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Hall

>Eleanor,

>Which "remote viewers" do you believe? Presumably you are
>familiar with the Stanford experiments which basically proved
>that sometimes some people seem to make "hits," but who, when,
>and how reliably is very uncertain. Ignotiius per ignotium.

There are what seem to be authentic reports of remarkable RV
successes in espionage and counter-terrorism. But I tend to
distrust information about ETs collected by this method since
there's no way to verify that it isn't heavily contaminated with
the remote viewer's own preconceptions.

What would _really_ impress me would be if remote viewing could
be successfully used to predict when an abduction was about to
occur. Then we might be able to nab one of the little buggers
while they were trying to nab one of us.


Turnabout's fair play! :)







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   Oct > Oct 19

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:11:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:29:40 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Rudiak


>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:37:48 -0300
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:08:47 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>Neil has been trying to make a Federal case out of a Reuters'
>>quote that none of Ramey's men recognized it as an Army type
>>balloon. But a rawin _is_ Army balloon equipment, developed
>>specifically for the Army weather services during WWII. You
>>can't think or even guess it might be an ML307 rawin and not
>>know that it was also an Army weather device.

>A rawin is not a piece of equipment.

Trivia time.

"RAWIN" is an acronym for RAdar WINd sounding or the piece of
equipment that accomplishes this, a RAWIN target, AKA radar
reflector.

The discussion about what is in Ramey's office is obviously
about the piece of equipment, namely a RAWIN target.

>It is winds-aloft data.

Rawin isn't "data." It's the process or specific equipment used
in collecting the winds-aloft data. The winds-aloft data is
nothing more than speed and direction at a given altitude.

>The rawin data was not developed specifically for the Army
weather
>services during WWII, it was developed for the artillery arms.

Yes, you are right. It wasn't specifically for the weather
services. It was any division that needed winds-aloft data, such
as artillery or aircraft. But what difference does it make to
the Roswell/Ramey discussion?

>The majority of the upper air-data was obtained by the artillery
>arms because the weather service simply did not have the
>equipment to collect rawin data. The need for rawin data by
>artillery arms is very self- explanatory.

OK, but so what?

>Rawin data was obtained via two methods, radio-direction-
>finding equipment (RDF) or radio detection and ranging equipment
>(RADAR).

I have seen one definitions where Rawin referred to both radar
tracking and radio beacon tracking through triangulation. But
most "Rawin" definitions are about tracking balloons by radar
through the use of rawin or radar reflecting targets.

The discussion is about radar reflecting targets and what was in
Ramey's office. Why take the discussion off on another
pointless tangent?

>In the case of RADAR, the balloon carries a target (ML307(*)/AP)
>which serves as a reflector for a beam of radio waves sent from
>a transmitter on the ground.

>So you see, the target was a common passive device. In the case
>of RDF, the balloon carried a radio transmitter who signal was
>picked up by a receiver on the ground. It did not require a
>target attached to the balloon.

I'm afraid I knew all this already. Why the lecture about
something with zero relevance to the main topic? Obviously the
discussion concerning the object in Ramey's office is
specifically about the ML307 radar reflector.

>>More importantly, you can't deduce a "hexagonal" shape by
>>looking at torn-up debris. Calling a rawin "hexagonal" would
>>only be done by somebody highly familiar with intact, assembled
>>rawins. Further these might only look "hexagonal" if viewed from
>>a distance and viewed directly from the bottom or top. Close up
>>or viewing a little off to the side, and there is nothing
>>"hexagonal" about them at all. Thus somebody who launched these
>>devices and viewed them from underneath as they went up and
>>soared out of sight might notice a hexagonal profile, but why
>>would Ramey know about such things?

>David, the targets were introduced in basic radar theory, which
>was not confined to weather service personnel but given to
>artillery arms personnel as well. The targets came in a boxs of
>24 targets/box. There were all flattened.

And not remotely "hexagonal" when flattened. They were
triangles. To see this, view my rawin construction web page:

www.roswellproof.com/rawin_construction.html

>They were taken out of
>the box unfolded and assembled.

And when _assembled_ and _intact_only appeared "hexagonal" when
viewed from a distance and directly from either the top or
bottom. You would have to be _very_ familiar with the targets to
even be aware of this.

But the object on Ramey's rug was not assembled and intact. In
fact it was all torn up, flattened, and spread out. There was
nothing to recognize as "hexagonal."

>The chances of having someone
>describe the targets design as hexagonal are very good.

Hardly. "Hexagonal" is already an odd description for an intact
target. It's an impossible description for a shredded one. You
can't deduce the shape.

>It doesn't matter whether or not Ramey knew of such things. He
had
>people around him to tell him.

Sorry, but Neil and you have been arguing that the Reuter's
quote also says that nobody at the base recognized it as an
"Army type balloon" (Reuters' quote). If nobody recognized it as
an Army type balloon, then there was no reason to even guess a
Rawin, which was made for the Army. If they didn't know it was a
Rawin, then where did the "hexagonal" description come from,
which is very specific description of a Rawin?

Using the word "hexagonal" means Ramey already knew it to
definitely be an ML307 Rawin, because you can't deduce the shape
from shredded pieces. Saying that nobody recognized it for what
it was is inconsistent with it being described as "hexagonal.

>>So why does Ramey tell Major Kirton to describe the torn up
>>object in his office as "hexagonal" while also saying that
>>nobody recognized at as an Army device? The statements are
>>contradictory. If somebody recognized it as a rawin and was also
>>so highly familiar with rawins that they knew they might look
>>hexagonal when intact, then why the cat and mouse game about the
>>identity, and why the statement that nobody recognized it for
>>what it was?

>Neil is not making a federal case of the Reuter's quote.

Oh yes he is. He is making the claim that the Reuter's quote of
nobody at the base recognizing it as an "Army type balloon"
somehow proves that the displayed debris in the photos was _not_
a rawin target but something else.

>He is
>simply saying that because these tagets were so common and
>because they were made of tinfoil and balsa sticks, there is no
>reason in the world why they could not have identified the
>material as a rawin target.

If there was no reason in the world why they could not have
identified it as a rawin target, then why couldn't they identify
it "as an army type balloon" (Reuters' quote)? A rawin _is_ an
army type balloon.

>But, it is obivious that was not the
>case because Ramey said they could not recognize it as army
>balloon material.

Well now you are changing the quote. There is _nothing_ about
not recognizing balloon material. Here is the original quote:

"it looks like a hexagonal object covered with tinfoil or other
shining material suspended from a balloon of about twenty feet
in diameter. It is possibly a weather balloon flown at the
highest altitude but none of the army men at this base recognize
it as an army type balloon."

Where does it say they could not recognize it as "army balloon
material?"

The point remains, how could it "look like a hexagonal object
covered with tinfoil" when it was all torn up? It can't. Only
somebody describing an intact, assembled, actual rawin target
would ever use the term "hexagonal" to describe the shape.

>Ramey would not have said that if there wasn't some truth to
>it.

He didn't say anything about nobody recognizing balloon
material -- you did.

There certainly was no truth to it looking "like a hexagonal
object covered with tinfoil" when it was all torn up. Where did
he get a "hexagonal" description if "none of the army men at
this base recognize it as an army type balloon." The statements
are mutually contradictory.

There are other newspaper stories where Ramey was specifically
identifying the object as a radar target starting only about an
hour after the press release. Ramey already knew it was a radar
target being displayed (or would be displayed) and someone
somewhere down the line told him they were hexagonally shaped.
That is the only way a "hexagonal" description could have crept
in there.

Marcel and Dubose both told the story that what was pictured was
a weather balloon to get the press off their backs. The weather
balloon was the cover story. Marcel said the photos were
"staged." In is last interview, he stated that the anomolous
debris he had brought to show Gen. Ramey was hidden from sight
when the photos were taken. Dubose said he never saw the real
debris. What was pictured in the photos was not the real debris,
but that "hexagonal" ML307 brought in as a shill.

>What is the federal case here? There is no federal case It would
>appear to me that you can't see the trees from the forest, and
>I'm using the saying backwards.

It would appear to me that you are so focused on the atoms that
you can't even see the leaves, much less the trees or forest.


David Rudiak







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   Oct > Oct 20

                         Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:40:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:00:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Gates


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
>>Subject: Remote Viewing?

><snip>

>>Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
>>Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
>>will help our research, and the research of other authors.


>Thierry -

>"Help" authors and researchers is an extreme understatement!

>Remote viewing is the most powerful way available to learn the
>truth about UFOs, alien activity, government cover up, you name
>it. I say _bravo_ and God speed and _thanks_ to you for raising
>this issue.

>It is absolutely _tragic_ that people in the West, seniour UFO
>researchers, scientists, the media, heap ridicule on what is so
>obviously the "next level" of scientific progress, instead of
>taking advantage of this technology with all possible speed.

Eleanor,

The problem truly is that the remote viewing community heap
ridicule and scorn on their own work be floating pronouncements
like the martin hive coloney living in New Mexico, Hale Bopp and
others, not to mention the fact that most of them dislike the
other remote viewers. They also have various reasons why the
other remote viewers are wrong and they are right.

The other thing I find interesting is while people wail and howl
about the "evil CIA" and all the so called evil
experiments/reseach they did, many folks don't even blink an eye
with the remote viewing...a project that came from Langley/DOD.


Cheers,

Robert






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                     Strange Montana Light An Experiment

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:07:28 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:09:41 -0400
Subject: Strange Montana Light An Experiment


Source: The Billiings Gazette - Montana

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?display=rednews/2003/10/19/build/state/
70-laserlight.inc

MSU test produces strange light
Associated Press

BOZEMAN - An experiment at Montana State University is causing
area residents to wonder about the strange light that has been
appearing in the sky.

Researchers at Montana State University are testing a laser that
shoots a pulsing beam of light upward, and may one day help with
weather detection.

They are working on a "lidar," an acronym for light detection
and ranging, said Kevin Repasky, a research professor of physics
at MSU. It's equivalent to radar, but with lasers.

"It looked like two light green, very strange streaks in the
sky," said Shane Jankuna, who was part of a small knot of people
on the sidewalk in front of Hastings Books, Music and Video
looking at the laser Thursday night.

Repasky said roughly 50 to 75 people have tracked down the test
site, and all wanted to know the story behind the light.

"It's interesting - they're trying to follow the beam back to
its source," Repasky said. "So, we were doing a lot of
explaining of the science behind it. It's a lot of fun."

The scientists say they are bouncing light off particles in the
sky, such as dust or aerosols, and measuring the time it takes
for the light to return. From that, they can tell how distant
the particles are. The laser, pulsing 30 times per second, looks
like a continuous light beam.

MSU has been working with lidar for about a year and a half. The
scientists have permission from the Federal Aviation
Administration to test the lidar again Tuesday and Thursday, and
may test the following two weeks as well.

Repaskey said he didn't want to say where the test originates,
other than that it's on the MSU campus. "It's more fun if they
want to try to follow it," he said.

Copyright 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or
redistributed.








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                       Submissions For UFO Magazine UK

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:30:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:12:52 -0400
Subject: Submissions For UFO Magazine UK



Dear Colleague,

I wonder if you could possibly be of some assistance. Just a few
short weeks ago the editor and founder of UFO Magazine in the
UK, Graham Birdsall, suddenly passed away. This of course was a
great shock to Graham's family and to all of those that knew
him.

Since Graham's untimely death I have been helping the staff at
UFO Magazine. Between us we have managed to produce the Nov/Dec
issue of the magazine, which will be on the newsstands in due
course. The aim of course is to continue publishing the magazine
and to carry on where Graham left off.

I'd therefore respectfully like to ask if you would like to
contribute to the magazine. This could be in the form of an
article, case investigation, research paper, news item, etc. If
you could find the time to contribute to UFO Magazine I would be
extremely grateful.

If you require any further information concerning contributing
to UFO Magazine please do not hesitate to ask and please feel
free to forward this message on to anyone who might be to
contribute to what is the worlds largest selling newsstand UFO
publication. I can be contacted at either of the e-mail addreses
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suemantle@ntlworld.com







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   Oct > Oct 20

                  New Animal Deaths Reinforce 'Chupacabras'

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:17:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: New Animal Deaths Reinforce 'Chupacabras'


SOURCE: Diario El D=EDa - Chile
DATE: Sunday, October 19, 2003

New Animal Deaths In Coquimbo Reinforce Chupacabras Hypothesis

***Simultaneously, residents in Caleta San Pedro claim young
student is "possessed" by an evil force that has required
religious intervention***

By Armando Tapia

Paranormal events have strongly imprinted the weekly news in
this region following several attacks by the alleged
"Chupacabras" in the Pan de Az=FAcar sector. To this was added a
report of "demonic possession in Caleta San Pedro: two enigmatic
events for which there is still no conclusive answer,
particularly taking into consideration the fact that mysterious
animal deaths are still taking place in Coquimbo.

A new attack by the mythic predator took place yesterday in Pan
de Azucar, this time on the property of Carlos Errazuriz of
Hacienda Venus. Increasing the fear that is already felt by
local residents since the first deaths occurred on October 15,
the fact is that the landowner was faced with the death of 15 of
his canaries through exsanguination. The birds were not eaten.

Before the startled eyes of the dwellers, who did not hear any
noises during the night, the unknown entity opened the mesh
screen of the bird cage to subsequently get in and slay all of
these canaries, which were found dead the following morning and
strewn all over the yard, showing the same strange marks which
supposedly appear on the "Chupacabras"'s victims.

Errazuriz dismissed the possibility that a dog or other animal--
such as a fox--could be involved, since considerable strength
would be required to open the gate, and furthermore none of the
birds was devoured or even bittne. "It's as though only their
blood had been sucked," he said, looking at one of the prints
left by the mysterious assailant. Due to their large size and
shape, they do not appear to belong to any known animal.

The first time that a Chupacabras attack became known in this
region was in May 2004, when 40 mutilated chickens were found in
Salamanca. Although all suspicions at the time were directed at
the strange creature's actions, the fact is that the official
version finally determined that it was merely the work of a
"wild animal": an explanation that did not convince many.

One day before the "Chupcabras" attacks became known, a strange
news item spread concern among residents of Caleta San Pedro, a
tiny rural community in the La Serena commune. A 17 year-old
student was the victim of a strange "malign force" that had
posessed her, caused her to suffer convulsions and experience
lapses of awareness.

According to the girl's relatives -- whose name is being kept
confidential--the teenager has experienced abrupt personality
changes in which even her voice and features have been altered,
to the extent of convincing everyon that she is possessed.

However, a local priest who visited the girl's home dismissed
that any diabolism was involved, indicating that "nothing more
than a strange health alteration" was involved. The fact remains
that the event has caused a stir in the community, since the
crisis still affects the student.

In spite of this, the Catholic church acknowledges the existence
of diabolic possession cases for which "exorcisms" are the
prescirbed remedy, having the category of a sacrament, and which
are only performed when all manner of psychological
disturbances, or other ailments having a natural explanation,
have been discarded.

(Translation (C) 2003. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Special Thanks to Liliana N=FA=F1ez Orellana)








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   Oct > Oct 20

                                Mind Control?

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:17:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:41:02 -0400
Subject: Mind Control?


I have seen many websites and posts alleging that at least the
US Government is involved in an active mind control programme.
None of them seem to present a rational analysis of the topic.
Here is a sample of the sort of questions that I would like to
know the answers to:


1. If an individual is being controlled, is it 24x7 or only for
specific periods?

2. Why are some people affected and not others?

3. How do people know that they are victims of MC as opposed to
say some form of Schitzophrenia/Paranoia?

4. What is the mechanism used? I know of two proposed methods,
one using electromagnetic radiation, the other using social
cultivation. In either case, I refer back to Q.1 (if the attack
is 24x7), it needs to reach the victim in a wide variety of
locations and Q.2- how is either method made selective over large
distances?

5. Surely one aspect of the "control" would be to prevent the
victim from becoming aware of it?

6. If the source is electromagnetic, what frequencies are used?
If that is known then it should be easy to detect and map out an
area of operation, and trace the source.

That is just for starters, anyone care to answer the questions?


Joe








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                      Re: A Little Question - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:23:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:54:12 -0400
Subject: Re: A Little Question - Lehmberg


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
>Subject: A little Question

>Hello UpDates Readers:

>This may seem unkind and/or unwelcome, that depends.

As it turns out, it was neither unkind nor unwelcome (just
another personal paradigm to be deconstructed and invalidated),
though the substance of suggesting that it -could- be is
interesting in its own right.

>Lets suppose that some alien race is surveying and/or monitoring
>Earth for any reason imaginable. I can think of lots of
>reasons.

This is a pretty blithe write-off of the unimaginable in a
complacent rush to avoid the plethora of things you'd _never_
think of.

>This could have been going on for years, decades, centuries or
>longer, it doesn't matter right now.

...And it's a distraction from your flawed point because of the
additional time provided in that history to matter more and more
as one recedes further and further into the past.

>Assuming this some sort of reconnaissance;

That's difficult to accept because everything you express with
regard to your point is based on assumptions with one foot in
the grave of its own anthropomorphism.

>How much sense does it make for such any alien race, set of
>probes or anything similar to put on a light show over Phoenix
>Arizona?

It's not really required that it make _any_ sense, is it,
forgetting that it doesn't matter if Phoenix was legitimate or
_not_.

>Try to imagine the spy chiefs of the 1950s, the Rosenbergs for
>example, waving Soviet flags from atop 4rth of July whirlygigs
>and ferris wheels shouting "Yahhdyyaddahh!". Unlikely? I agree.

See? Right there! That a solid _chunk_ of anthropomorphism. It's
a straw argument of a bad metaphor because there is no X-factor
of alien intelligence anywhere within it. You're arguing apples
and oranges.

>What interests me more (I hope I am not completely alone here)
>are the rare sightings of craft that did _not_ pay this or that
>agency for fireworks or publicity.


I don't think they're that rare, at all... just avoided.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Oct > Oct 20

                        Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:26:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:00:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:35:38 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>Dick and List - sorry for all that gab - this death watch for
>Terri Schindler Schiavo, being tortured to death while
>fully conscious in Florida, is kind of upsetting and makes
>it hard to be brief.

>Here's a much more concise way to say it all:

>Remote viewing is not 100% accurate, but it is accurate enough
>to provide _clues_ for further, more rigorous investigation by
>other methods. Clues which are just not available from any other
>source.

Eleanor and List,

The fact that the U.S. Government had found enough value in this
to spend milliions of dollars over a 10 year period indicates to
me that this is a subject area worth pursuing.

As I recall, the project was killed when it became publicly
acknowledged and they said that it proved to only be about 30%
to 40% accurate. Of course, there is always the suspicion that
it was merely move to a "Black Project" area and continues
behind a wall of secrecy.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of people who have promoted
themselves as experts and helped to damage this line of
research's credibility.


Steve








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   Oct > Oct 20

              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:57:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:05:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:10:55 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:45:55 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:34:25 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>It all reminds me of the other famous Multiple-Witness case with
>>>only one witness - Trindade Island. We were supposed to be
>>>getting dramatic new revelations about that incident. Any
>>>further information, Jerry?

>>We do know that not a single informant, of the
>>many who were on the ship on that memorable day and therefore in
>>a position to discredit - devastatingly, even to nonpelicanists
>> - the photographer's (and others') testimony, has ever stepped
>>forward.

>And more to the point we do not have a single statement, direct
>comment or report from anyone on the ship who was not a close
>colleage of the photographer Barauna.

This is just plain silly - I love that "more to the point,"
which is of course no point at all, given the totality of the
case and its ramifications (see my encyclopedia entry for a full
account, as opposed to the Magonian cartoon version). In fact,
John's is just a transparent dodge whose purpose is to change
the subject so that we won't notice how feeble his argument is.
Allow me to repeat:

The case and photographs received immense publicity soon after
their occurrence. They made headlines in Brazil and attracted
the attention of the U.S. military as well. The incident, it was
widely reported, took place in front of a large number of
witnesses on board a Brazilian Navy ship.

All John is talking about here is that a full list of names
didn't make it into English-language accounts. But if it had, we
can be certain that he would simply dismiss the names out of
hand. After all, he'd demand to know, how can we be sure these
are real names of real persons? Or could it be that they were
all friends and co-conspirators with the photographer? There's
no end to it, once you embark down a course of convenient
speculative guesswork.

For the more open-minded, there is this simple, obvious
consideration:

If this was a hoax, that fact could and would have been easily
established, and probably very early on in the affair. All we'd
have to have is a single statement, or several (or more)
statements, from those who were there and who saw nothing out of
the ordinary, and who told what they knew to investigators,
ufologists, or journalists. It has now been nearly five decades
since the incident occurred and the photos were taken, and not a
single negative informant has stepped forward. That fact is
surely significant, even more so when one considers that Brazil
has a vigorous debunking movement which would, of course, be
more than thrilled to trumpet such disproof.

All this would suggest to any reasonable observer, I should
think, that the negative witness doesn't exist.  Or, more to the
point (to borrow a Rimmerism), those negative witnesses; there
would have been no shortage of them, of course. Their stories
would have been plastered all over the headlines and would have
sold newspapers by the tens of thousands. Rival newspapers would
have loved, as rival newspapers always do, to discredit their
competitors which had foolishly championed the original account,
an easily disprovable hoax.

The rest of you, I am sure, easily understand the cogency of
this simple point. The rest of us can look forward not to the
appearance of the fabled negative witness - who seems to have
the same reality status as the Easter Bunny - but to new
developments on other fronts.

In the meantime, until John produces negative witnesses, he's
just spinning wheels, and I refuse to ride nowhere with him.
Unless negative witnesses are produced, there seems no more to
say on the subject, and I plan to act accordingly. I really have
more productive things to do with my time, as some of you are
aware from your knowledge of my current - I might add highly
time-consuming - project.


Jerry Clark








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   Oct > Oct 20

               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:31:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:13:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
>>Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

>>"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
>>NOTICE.

>What's a "D" Notice? Is that particular to UK broadcasters
>where an an advisory is issued by the Defence Department[s] re
>sensitive military assets?

Don,

See http://www.fas.org/irp/world/uk/d.htm

"DA" Notices
(formerly "D" Notices)

DA-Notices (for "Defence Advisory" Notices) are issued by the
Defence, Press and Broadcasting Advisory Committee as a means of
providing official guidance on those areas of national security
which the UK Government considers it has a duty to protect.

The Notices are widely distributed to editors, producers and
publishers and also to officials in Government departments,
military commanders, chief constables and some institutions.

The Notices have no legal standing and advice offered within
their framework may be accepted or rejected partly or wholly.







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               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: John Auchtl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:25:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:14:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
>>Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

>>"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
>>NOTICE.

>What's a "D" Notice. Is that particular to UK broadcasters where
>an an advisory is issued by the Defence Department[s] re
>sensitive military assets?

Australian Version

Origins of the D Notice system:

D Notices are issued to the media on the authority of the
Defence, Press and Broadcasting Committee.

The D Notice system was started in England in 1912.

It was modified slightly to meet the increased security demands
and the changed condition of wartime, and was resumed after the
war - much on the same lines as when it began.

The Australian D Notice system was introduced in 1952. The D
denotes Defence, reflecting the origin of the notices in World
War I as a means of protecting defence related information.

See:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/praoz/zsecret/dnotices.htm



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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   Oct > Oct 20

                      Re: A Little Question - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:23:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:54:12 -0400
Subject: Re: A Little Question - Lehmberg


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
>Subject: A little Question

>Hello UpDates Readers:

>This may seem unkind and/or unwelcome, that depends.

As it turns out, it was neither unkind nor unwelcome (just
another personal paradigm to be deconstructed and invalidated),
though the substance of suggesting that it -could- be is
interesting in its own right.

>Lets suppose that some alien race is surveying and/or monitoring
>Earth for any reason imaginable. I can think of lots of
>reasons.

This is a pretty blithe write-off of the unimaginable in a
complacent rush to avoid the plethora of things you'd _never_
think of.

>This could have been going on for years, decades, centuries or
>longer, it doesn't matter right now.

...And it's a distraction from your flawed point because of the
additional time provided in that history to matter more and more
as one recedes further and further into the past.

>Assuming this some sort of reconnaissance;

That's difficult to accept because everything you express with
regard to your point is based on assumptions with one foot in
the grave of its own anthropomorphism.

>How much sense does it make for such any alien race, set of
>probes or anything similar to put on a light show over Phoenix
>Arizona?

It's not really required that it make _any_ sense, is it,
forgetting that it doesn't matter if Phoenix was legitimate or
_not_.

>Try to imagine the spy chiefs of the 1950s, the Rosenbergs for
>example, waving Soviet flags from atop 4rth of July whirlygigs
>and ferris wheels shouting "Yahhdyyaddahh!". Unlikely? I agree.

See? Right there! That a solid _chunk_ of anthropomorphism. It's
a straw argument of a bad metaphor because there is no X-factor
of alien intelligence anywhere within it. You're arguing apples
and oranges.

>What interests me more (I hope I am not completely alone here)
>are the rare sightings of craft that did _not_ pay this or that
>agency for fireworks or publicity.


I don't think they're that rare, at all... just avoided.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 20

                       Re: A little Question - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:54:44 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:28:12 -0400
Subject: Re: A little Question - Cammack


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
>Subject: A little Question

>Lets suppose that some alien race is surveying and/or monitoring
>Earth for any reason imaginable. I can think of lots of
>reasons.

>This could have been going on for years, decades, centuries or
>longer, it doesn't matter right now.

<snip>

>How much sense does it make for such any alien race, set of
>probes or anything similar to put on a light show over Phoenix
>Arizona?


Larry,

The reason has been expressed - by several different theorists -
 to slowly make themselves known to earthlings as part of a
larger and longer strategy leading to open contact. What better
way to do it than by playing hide-and-seek over and over again,
until their presence - indeed, even their body type and shape -
 is known and accepted (acceptable).


Diana







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                        Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:26:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:00:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:35:38 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>Dick and List - sorry for all that gab - this death watch for
>Terri Schindler Schiavo, being tortured to death while
>fully conscious in Florida, is kind of upsetting and makes
>it hard to be brief.

>Here's a much more concise way to say it all:

>Remote viewing is not 100% accurate, but it is accurate enough
>to provide _clues_ for further, more rigorous investigation by
>other methods. Clues which are just not available from any other
>source.

Eleanor and List,

The fact that the U.S. Government had found enough value in this
to spend milliions of dollars over a 10 year period indicates to
me that this is a subject area worth pursuing.

As I recall, the project was killed when it became publicly
acknowledged and they said that it proved to only be about 30%
to 40% accurate. Of course, there is always the suspicion that
it was merely move to a "Black Project" area and continues
behind a wall of secrecy.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of people who have promoted
themselves as experts and helped to damage this line of
research's credibility.


Steve







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   Oct > Oct 21

                   Puerto Rico: New UFO Television Series

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:35:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 03:59:23 -0400
Subject: Puerto Rico: New UFO Television Series


SOURCE: Primera Hora
DATE: Saturday, October 18, 2003

Stalking E.T. Encounters In Puerto Rico
by Mariela Fullana

Are humans truly alone in the universe, or do we have company?

This question--the source of so much controversy and debate,
shall be the subject of the Puerto RIcan science-fiction film
"Encuentros" (Encounters), which shall be shown on October 28 at
8:00 pm through Telemundo.

Flying saucers cross the skies, scintillating lights illuminate
the island and space aliens are ornly some of the special effect
that will appear in this movie, created by engineer Carlos
Vallellanes under the direction of David Aponte, who is also the
creator of this script. Carlos Fontane, Alexandra Malag=F3n and
William Piedra are the protagonists.

"It's rather differente from what has been done in Puerto RIco
as far as special effects are concerned. I'm not a fan of the
subject, but I do believe than in a Universe so vast we cannot
be the only ones," said the script writer, who based himself on
true accounts of people who claim having had some sort of ET
contact, blending their stories with his own imagtination.

The movie's stars coincided with the director in their
appreciation of life on other planets.

"When I was young I visited El Yunque regularly, because my dad
had a house there, and I saw things I could never explain," said
Carlos Fontane, who acted and formed part of the production
staff under New Dreams Entertainment.

Alexandra Malag=F3n stated that "we cannot be alone in such a wide
Universe. People close to me have told me that they've seen
inexplicable things, and I myself have seen strange lights. I've
always believed."

"Encuentros" tells the story of Steven Rodriguez (Carlos
Fontane) an incredulous reporter who covers a series of
extraterrestrial stories afteter the rumor of the existence of
UFOs becomes known.

"We're not promising the best or the worst. Only a different
production. We didn't want this to look like a soap opera, but
rather like a movie," said the actor, who lost 25 pounds and
grew a beard for the role.

Regarding "Jessica", the role portrayed by Alexandra Malag=F3n,
the actress noted that "it's the first time I've played a
character so much like myself. She's a good friend and wise and
daring journalist, which took me back to the five years I worked
as a reporter on Univision("Despierta Am=E9rica" and "Noticiario
Univisi=F3n").

William Piedra,  who acts the role of "Larry", praised the
hostess of the "Atrevete" show for her work and for sticking
with the production to the very end.

"She fell down, she scraped her knees, she lost a fingernail and
still didn't stop shooting. Now, when she asked for a hair dryer
and was told there wasn't one, she did stop the production,"
said  comedian amid much laughter. He too forms part of this
film, which was recorded on digital stock.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Dr. Jose I. Gomez






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   Oct > Oct 21

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:56:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:29:18 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:11:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:37:48 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie
>Trivia time.

>"RAWIN" is an acronym for RAdar WINd sounding or the piece of
>equipment that accomplishes this, a RAWIN target, AKA radar
>reflector.

>The discussion about what is in Ramey's office is obviously
>about the piece of equipment, namely a RAWIN target.

>>It is winds-aloft data.

>Rawin isn't "data." It's the process or specific equipment used
>in collecting the winds-aloft data. The winds-aloft data is
>nothing more than speed and direction at a given altitude.


David,

As a point of record, allow me to write verbatim the definition
of a Rawin as defined by the "Weather Station Handbook For The
Weather Observer", issued by the War Department Technical Manual
TM 1-235, printed May 1945.

"Winds Aloft Obtained By RDF And Radar Are Referred To As Rawins"

A "Winds Aloft Computation Sheet" was used to record the data.
The form is identified as "WD SC Form 425, winds-aloft
computation sheet." There are columns labelled as follows;
"Minutes, Elevation Angle, Horizontal Angle and Slant Range
RAWIN (Yards).

I don't know where your definition of a RAWIN comes from and
because of that I don't know if it's correct or not, but based
on the defintion of Rawins as outlined, and the fact there is a
seperate column on the winds-aloft computation sheet to record a
RAWIN value, this tells me that RAWIN is data. When the wind
directions and speeds at standard levels have been measured,
there are coded. The name given to this process is the Rawin
code.

I would accept RAWINS as data used in a process to calculate
winds-aloft but certainly not as a piece of equipment.


Andrew Lavoie







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   Oct > Oct 21

                       Re: A little Question - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:49:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:13:06 -0400
Subject: Re: A little Question - Miller


From: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
To: <- UFO UpDates List - 004 - :>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:32 AM
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: A little Question - Warren


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:27:31 -0700
>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
>>Subject: A little Question

>Trying to interpret an "alien agenda" with "human logic," to
>quote an alien (Spock) "is not logical." This faux pas is made
>all the time. It's reminiscent of statements made by "naysayers"
>which declare that aliens couldn't possibly be here as the
>distance between here and another planet that might be inhabited
>is to far to travel. The assumptions there are abundant; first,
>it assumes said aliens are not only at the same level of
>advancement that we are, but also possess the "same technology."
>The odds of this of course are very slim, and I would wager that
>man-kind is far more ignorant (technologically speaking)then a
>race that has constructed the craft witnessed by so many over
>such a long period of time.

>The point is that we have no clue "what makes our visitors
>tick"; Do they have emotions? Are they a "carbon based life
>form?" Do they require sustenance? Do they have some form of
>government? Do they "believe in a god?" Etc., etc. To establish
>some form of theorem about their motives we would need much more
>data then we currently have.


Frank,

May I congratulate you on an excellent post. Very good points
though I would say that as you seem to agree with me! I find it
incredibly frustrating when you ask people if they believe in
the ETH and they say, "Yes of course there must be intelligent
life elsewhere, but it isn't here". This is such a narrow minded
and dare I say arrogant approach. People make judgements about
what aliens can and can't do based on what the human race can or
can't do which of course is laughable.

Nevertheless, as short sighted as views like that appear to me,
I also acknowledge that to an objective person my views will
seem as arrogant and as blinkered as the "semi - sceptic". If I
ask myself why many, many people seem able to accept only half
the equation then maybe the answer lies in their own fears and
those fears deserve my respect and acknowledgement, not
derision. To some the concept and possibility of non
terrestrial life forms being present here is just too terrible
and incredible an idea to entertain. Simply because some have
been able to open their minds and walk through that Chinese Wall
should not mean that we condemn those that as yet can't.

As annoying as sceptics can be, it might be as well to try to
change our attitude towards them. Offer them sympathy and
understanding, listen to them. Get an appreciation of how they
think and only after you've done that is it then permissable to
start yelling at them and reminding them how incredibly dense
they all are. Okay I'm kidding but my point is, they're entitled
to their views too.


Stuart Miller








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   Oct > Oct 21

                   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:16:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:32:04 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 23:36:41 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:24:56 -0700
>>>Subject: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 21-23

>>>UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy.
>>>by Fr. Thomas Kulp (Wisconsin).

>><snip>

>>>There is not a single UFO incident on record that cannot be
>>>explained as a demonic deception or apparition.

<snip>

>>So, Terry, are you saying that the Fatama Incident was probably
>>a demonic manifestation as well?

>I'm just the messenger here, although I do consider noting what
>is going on inside the head and what is going on outside the
>head as a mystery wrapped in an enigma, etc. At face value these


>Fatima and other divine light stories are just that, stories.

Hi Mike and Terry,


As are all religions. Just stories. Those that believe in
demons, pet se [for instance we are asked to believe that what
abductees are seeing at night are demons-which is more socially
acceptable than aliens] are a bit soft in the head to begin
with - like the bible thumper in the southern United States who
said UFO researchers were all agents of satan and should be
stoned to death - so why should we give them anymore credibility
than any of the other easily led-by-the-nose nut cases out
there.

I always find it curious that we are to give respect for those
that tote bible lore as fact when we are villified for studying
something that has a hell of a lot more credibility than 3,000 +
year-old stories. And even then some try to make this a religion
by asking "Do you believe in UFOs?". It's sort of like asking
someone if they believe in steel I-beams. What difference does
it make?

To believe is not the point. To find out what and why, is.

Don Ledger








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   Oct > Oct 21

             Sci-Fi Channel Announces Possible Kecksberg Lawsuit

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:24:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:41:10 -0400
Subject: Sci-Fi Channel Announces Possible Kecksberg Lawsuit


The Sci-Fi Channel announces possible lawsuit in relation to the
Kecksberg incident

A press conference was held this morning at the National Press
Club in Washington, and announced that a legal suit was quite
likely in their effort to obtain information from the Government
related to the Kecksberg crash.  Prior to the planned press
briefing, the Sci-Fi Channel was interviewed by a Reuters
reporter, and the story is already being carried by the wire
services:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=36
52335


SCI FI Channel May Sue Government for UFO Documents Tue October
21, 2003 12:05 AM ET By Michael Learmonth NEW YORK (Reuters) -
 The truth is out there, and the SCI FI Channel is determined to
find it, even if that means suing NASA, the Department of
Defense, the U.S. Army and Air Force for documents related to
unidentified flying objects.

SCI FI, a cable channel that airs fictional programming such as
Battlestar Galactica, as well as documentaries that explore the
line between fact and science fiction, is part of a group
pressuring the federal government to de-classify UFO
information.

Last year SCI FI joined forces with an investigative journalist,
a Washington, DC law firm, and former President Clinton chief of
staff John Podesta, to gain release of documents relating to an
incident it calls "the new Roswell," a UFO sighting in
Kecksburg, Pennsylvania in 1965.

"Now, one year later, despite serious effort to uncover the
facts, NASA and the Department of Defense are still maintaining
their wall of silence," said SCI FI Channel president Bonnie
Hammer. "Whether or not this has anything to do with UFOs the
public has the right to know."

Now the SCI Fi Channel is supporting what could turn into a
series of lawsuits, first against NASA and then against the
Department of Defense, the Army and Air Force, to get classified
documents released to the public.

The group said it expects to file the suit against NASA within a
week. Representatives from NASA and the Department of Defense
were not immediately available for comment.

NASA was chosen as the first agency to be sued because SCI FI
and the groups' attorney, Lee Helfrich of the Washington, DC-
based firm, Lobel, Novins and Lamont, believe that they've fully
exhausted their administrative options with the agency, a
prerequisite for a judge to agree to hear the case.

While news organizations routinely pursue Freedom of Information
Act requests with the government, it's relatively rare for a
cable channel, especially one focused on fantasy, not the
gathering of news, to pursue such a course of action.

But Hammer sees a great deal of programming potential in
pursuing government documents related to UFO sightings, part of
the channel's effort to "find the line between science fiction
and science fact."

"As we grow the channel, this will become more and more
important," Hammer said.

In December 1965, residents of Kecksburg, Pennsylvania watched a
fireball descend into a heavily-forested area 40 miles from
Pittsburgh. That night the area was cordoned off by the
military, trucks and helicopters came and went, and the town was
briefly placed under martial law.

The next day, headlines in the Greensburg, Pennsylvania Tribune-
Review read "Unidentified Flying Object Falls Near Kecksburg"
and "Army Ropes Off Area," but residents of Kecksburg were never
told why the military cordoned off the area and what, if
anything, was found.

The results of SCI FI's new investigation into the incident will
air Friday in a documentary hosted by Bryant Gumbel called "The
New Roswell: Kecksburg Exposed."

In Kecksburg it hired a forestry expert from West Virginia
University who discovered growth patterns and core damage to
trees there that support a "traumatic event" in 1965.

SCI FI, a unit of Vivendi Universal, is among the assets
recently sold to General Electric Co.'s NBC. Hammer sees the
integration with a network news operation as a potential boon
for SCI FI's newsgathering efforts.

"If it's something that seems credible, absolutely," said Hammer
on the potential of working with NBC journalists. "But we're not
going to do it just to create buzz."

==end Reuters report==

During the press briefing, it was stated that an analysis of the
data eliminates the possibility that the Kecksberg object was
American or Soviet space debris, as has been widely speculated.
I'm sure that much of this will be covered in the Sci-Fi
Channel's Kecksberg documentary on Friday.

Steve








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 21

             Sci-Fi Channel Announces Possible Kecksberg Lawsuit

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:24:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:41:10 -0400
Subject: Sci-Fi Channel Announces Possible Kecksberg Lawsuit


The Sci-Fi Channel announces possible lawsuit in relation to the
Kecksberg incident

A press conference was held this morning at the National Press
Club in Washington, and announced that a legal suit was quite
likely in their effort to obtain information from the Government
related to the Kecksberg crash.  Prior to the planned press
briefing, the Sci-Fi Channel was interviewed by a Reuters
reporter, and the story is already being carried by the wire
services:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=36
52335


SCI FI Channel May Sue Government for UFO Documents Tue October
21, 2003 12:05 AM ET By Michael Learmonth NEW YORK (Reuters) -
 The truth is out there, and the SCI FI Channel is determined to
find it, even if that means suing NASA, the Department of
Defense, the U.S. Army and Air Force for documents related to
unidentified flying objects.

SCI FI, a cable channel that airs fictional programming such as
Battlestar Galactica, as well as documentaries that explore the
line between fact and science fiction, is part of a group
pressuring the federal government to de-classify UFO
information.

Last year SCI FI joined forces with an investigative journalist,
a Washington, DC law firm, and former President Clinton chief of
staff John Podesta, to gain release of documents relating to an
incident it calls "the new Roswell," a UFO sighting in
Kecksburg, Pennsylvania in 1965.

"Now, one year later, despite serious effort to uncover the
facts, NASA and the Department of Defense are still maintaining
their wall of silence," said SCI FI Channel president Bonnie
Hammer. "Whether or not this has anything to do with UFOs the
public has the right to know."

Now the SCI Fi Channel is supporting what could turn into a
series of lawsuits, first against NASA and then against the
Department of Defense, the Army and Air Force, to get classified
documents released to the public.

The group said it expects to file the suit against NASA within a
week. Representatives from NASA and the Department of Defense
were not immediately available for comment.

NASA was chosen as the first agency to be sued because SCI FI
and the groups' attorney, Lee Helfrich of the Washington, DC-
based firm, Lobel, Novins and Lamont, believe that they've fully
exhausted their administrative options with the agency, a
prerequisite for a judge to agree to hear the case.

While news organizations routinely pursue Freedom of Information
Act requests with the government, it's relatively rare for a
cable channel, especially one focused on fantasy, not the
gathering of news, to pursue such a course of action.

But Hammer sees a great deal of programming potential in
pursuing government documents related to UFO sightings, part of
the channel's effort to "find the line between science fiction
and science fact."

"As we grow the channel, this will become more and more
important," Hammer said.

In December 1965, residents of Kecksburg, Pennsylvania watched a
fireball descend into a heavily-forested area 40 miles from
Pittsburgh. That night the area was cordoned off by the
military, trucks and helicopters came and went, and the town was
briefly placed under martial law.

The next day, headlines in the Greensburg, Pennsylvania Tribune-
Review read "Unidentified Flying Object Falls Near Kecksburg"
and "Army Ropes Off Area," but residents of Kecksburg were never
told why the military cordoned off the area and what, if
anything, was found.

The results of SCI FI's new investigation into the incident will
air Friday in a documentary hosted by Bryant Gumbel called "The
New Roswell: Kecksburg Exposed."

In Kecksburg it hired a forestry expert from West Virginia
University who discovered growth patterns and core damage to
trees there that support a "traumatic event" in 1965.

SCI FI, a unit of Vivendi Universal, is among the assets
recently sold to General Electric Co.'s NBC. Hammer sees the
integration with a network news operation as a potential boon
for SCI FI's newsgathering efforts.

"If it's something that seems credible, absolutely," said Hammer
on the potential of working with NBC journalists. "But we're not
going to do it just to create buzz."

==end Reuters report==

During the press briefing, it was stated that an analysis of the
data eliminates the possibility that the Kecksberg object was
American or Soviet space debris, as has been widely speculated.
I'm sure that much of this will be covered in the Sci-Fi
Channel's Kecksberg documentary on Friday.

Steve








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   Oct > Oct 22

                       Re: A little Question - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:10:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:13:32 -0400
Subject: Re: A little Question - Warren


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:50:17 -0700
>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@mweb.co.za>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:54:44 +0200
>>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
>>>Subject: A little Question

>>>Lets suppose that some alien race is surveying and/or monitoring
>>>Earth for any reason imaginable. I can think of lots of
>>>reasons.

>>>This could have been going on for years, decades, centuries or
>>>longer, it doesn't matter right now.

>><snip>

>>>How much sense does it make for such any alien race, set of
>>>probes or anything similar to put on a light show over Phoenix
>>>Arizona?

>>Larry,

>>The reason has been expressed - by several different theorists -
>>to slowly make themselves known to earthlings as part of a
>>larger and longer strategy leading to open contact. What better
>>way to do it than by playing hide-and-seek over and over again,
>>until their presence - indeed, even their body type and shape -
>>is known and accepted (acceptable).

Good Day, Larry, Diana & All,

>Hello Diana:

>That is a reasonable hypothesis, yes. Lets say UFOs do show
>themselves now and then, to acclimatize us to their presence.

Again, although in my humble opinion I don't believe one can
second guess an "alien agenda" based on "human logic," for
argument's sake, let's assume our visitors are similar to us;
Let's say they are a carbon based life form with some similar
form of governing themselves; further that they have similar
"humanistic like emotions"; they are explorers etc. That said,
if their goal was/is to acclimatize us to the realization of
their existence, given the abundant activity of say '47 and '52
that would have been accomplished (and some might argue that it
was) had there not been government intervention in terms of
manipulating the media and public thinking as a whole.

>Would standard sightings (fly-bys, the occasional blurry photo
>etc.) be enough?  Or, does is make more sense to put on a
>fireworks display over Phoenix, Arizona on the same night as a
>military exercise with lots of flares?

Larry, as you know there has been so much more then "blurry
photos and fly-bys." Let us not forget all the "contactee/abductee
cases, government/military declarations, official investigations,
declassified documents, radar reports, early moving film, video
tape etc.

>It is my personal prejudice after cataloguing over 18,100
>sightings, that they would prefer to remain unproved, and as
>little noticed as possible.

Again, assuming they are like us, (god forbid), I have to
respectfully disagree; one could argue that their actions seem
to indicate that they don't care whether they're noticed or not.

Regards,

Frank Warren









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   Oct > Oct 22

                       Re: A little Question - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:15:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:17:23 -0400
Subject: Re: A little Question - Colvin


>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:26:14 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>From: Diana Cammack
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:54:44 +0200
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:28:12 -0400
>>Subject: Re: A little Question - Cammack

>>>From: Larry Hatch
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0700
>>>Subject: A little Question

>>>Lets suppose that some alien race is surveying
>>>and/or monitoring Earth for any reason imaginable. I
>>>can think of lots of reasons.

><<snip>>

>>>How much sense does it make for such any alien race,
>>>set of probes or anything similar to put on a light
>>>show over Phoenix Arizona?

>>The reason has been expressed - by several different
>>theorists - to slowly make themselves known to
>>earthlings as part of a larger and longer strategy
>>leading to open contact. What better way to do it
>>than by playing hide-and-seek over and over again,
>>until their presence - indeed, even their body type
>>and shape - is known and accepted (acceptable).

>Which body shape or type are they trying to make acceptable to
>us, exactly? I would like to know so I can get used to it
>myself.


Chris, List, et al -

The misidentification of advanced/stealth terrestrial technology
with whatever are UFOs is an interesting conundrum. The assumed
large triangles seen over Phoenix, the Hudson Valley, and
elsewhere are unlikely to be terrestrial. On and off the past
few years I have broached this idea on the Skunk-Works, the
Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB - SE Asia veterans),
and various other mailing lists and I have noted a decidedly
mixed response. Some skeptics and those I would call die-hard
academics refuse to accept that some of these reports
(especially Phoenix) are evidence of a phenomenon. A few on the
Skunk-Works (stealth aircraft/technology list) and on the TLCB
list do consider the possibility of our misidentifying one
"mystery" with the other.

Terry


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>








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   Oct > Oct 22

                  Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Kimball

From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:30:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:21:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Kimball


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:32:04 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 23:36:41 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:24:56 -0700
>>>>Subject: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 21-23

>>>>UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy.
>>>>by Fr. Thomas Kulp (Wisconsin).

>>><snip>

>>>>There is not a single UFO incident on record that cannot be
>>>>explained as a demonic deception or apparition.

<snip>

>As are all religions. Just stories. Those that believe in
>demons, pet se [for instance we are asked to believe that what
>abductees are seeing at night are demons-which is more socially
>acceptable than aliens] are a bit soft in the head to begin
>with - like the bible thumper in the southern United States who
>said UFO researchers were all agents of satan and should be
>stoned to death - so why should we give them anymore credibility
>than any of the other easily led-by-the-nose nut cases out
>there.

>I always find it curious that we are to give respect for those
>that tote bible lore as fact when we are villified for studying
>something that has a hell of a lot more credibility than 3,000 +
>year-old stories. And even then some try to make this a religion
>by asking "Do you believe in UFOs?". It's sort of like asking
>someone if they believe in steel I-beams. What difference does
>it make?

>To believe is not the point. To find out what and why, is.

Don:

While I agree that the statement 'There is not a single UFO
incident on record that cannot be explained as a demonic
deception or apparition' is a bit much, and certainly without an
evidential foundation, your comments in response ignore those
who engage in critical biblical studies in much the same way
that the mainstream media tends to lump all ufologists in with
the the 'wackos'. Generalities such as 'those who believe in
demons per se are a bit soft in the head to begin with' are
always dangerous, a double-edge sword that can easily be turned
around. This comes from one who 'believes' in both a Supreme
Being and UFOs, and doesn't see anything mutually exclusive
between them.

Of course, I also believe in steel I-Beams.


Paul Kimball
www.redstarfilm.com


P.S. Good to hear the Dartmouth Conference went well. I look
forward to seeing Mike's film.










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 22

               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:41:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:23:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:36:32 -0700
>Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:13 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
>>>Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

>>>"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
>>>NOTICE.

>>What's a "D" Notice. Is that particular to UK broadcasters where
>>an an advisory is issued by the Defence Department[s] re
>>sensitive military assets?

>Yes, it is.

>"D" Notice Committee

>The "D" Notice committee a voluntary system consisting of
>representatives of the media and the armed services. Its purpose
>is to assist the media in identifying subjects whose public
>discussion would adversely affect the defense [hence the "D"] of
>the realm. However, the fact that a publication has received the
>Committee's clearance does not provide a bar against
>prosecution. The Committee is not universally esteemed, as some
>are of the belief that the government has used it in matters
>that are merely politically embarrassing rather than actually
>harmful to the national defense.

>Consequently, many media organizations have declined to
>participate in the "D" Notice process.

>Room 2235 Main Building
>London SW1A 2HB England
>Telephone No: 0171 218 2206


Hi Terry,

Thanks to you, John Auchtl and Steven Kaeser who responded to my
query. It was then as I expected. You wisely noted, Terry, what
is likely the most important factor, the political implications
of such a committee. In some instances the government [take you
pick] will take advantage of the good graces of those affected-
the media [who are also political] by trying to cover up some
embarrassing incident or policy.


Best,

Don Ledger








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   Oct > Oct 22

               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:02:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:58:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
>>Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

>>"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
>>NOTICE.

>What's a "D" Notice. Is that particular to UK broadcasters where
>an an advisory is issued by the Defence Department[s] re
>sensitive military assets?

Don and List,

Here's a link to an article on the official DA-Notice site:

http://www.dnotice.org.uk/articles.htm#01Oct02

Note the statement "In this regard, let me state categorically
that there is no DA-Notice on stories about UFOs!"

I can confirm that this is true. I'm not sure where or when such
rumours began.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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   Oct > Oct 22

             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:33:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:05:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:59:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:15:19 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


>Patient and gentle listfolk:

>>>If this was a hoax, that fact could and would have been easily
>>>established, and probably very early on in the affair. All we'd
>>>have to have is a single statement, or several (or more)
>>>statements, from those who were there and who saw nothing out of
>>>the ordinary, and who told what they knew to investigators,
>>>ufologists, or journalists. It has now been nearly five decades
>>>since the incident occurred and the photos were taken, and not a
>>>single negative informant has stepped forward. That fact is
>>>surely significant, even more so when one considers that Brazil
>>>has a vigorous debunking movement which would, of course, be
>>>more than thrilled to trumpet such disproof.

>In what I take to be his idea of a rejoinder, John goes on and
>on with the self-destructive practice of hurling stones from a
>glass house. Unlike his house, my argument remains intact. A
>quick restatement of the obvious:

>If the Trindade photographs were a hoax, a proposition for which
>no evidence has yet been advanced or uncovered by official
>investigators, journalists, debunkers, or ufologists (or anybody
>else for that matter), it would have been easily disprovable,
>for reasons I have stated more than once now (most recently
>above) and which, I am sure, no List member other than John has
>had difficulty grasping.

>Until John can produce a negative witness or witnesses, of whom
>there would have been an abundance if the case were a hoax,
>further discussion is pointless. Meantime, we may anticipate new
>developments on other fronts.

>Now, back to something productive. No holding breath waiting for
>that negative witness, kids!


Amazing, isn't it, how Jerry always manages to clip the awkward
questions from the postings he is replying to. I urge thone
(very few) who are interested to refer back to earlier
correspondence in this thread, and the detailed discussions many
moons ago about Trindade, and see just who is rendering this
argument pointless.

Question: There is a spectaular UFO sighting, with many
witnesses, up to 150 in some accounts, 48 in others. Several
impressive photographs are taken which are published in the
national and international press. The sighting is publicised
internationally, and is investigated by the government.

Who is most likely to go to the newspapers and investigators
with their account of this event:

1) Someone who saw the UFO and can confirm the story.
2) Someone who saw nothing.

Yes, I thought so.

What does it imply then, when the only people who give any
account of this event are the photographer, and two of his mates
from his sports club?


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Oct > Oct 22

                        Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:22:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:03:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:52:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Mind Control?

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:17:35 +0100
>>Subject: Mind Control?

>Originally, I was going to reply to Joe off-list. However,
>thinking more about it, I realize that the mind control arena
>holds information that is at least tangent to the field of
>UFOlogy. Before I answer Joe's questions below, let me explain
>some of the areas of potential common interest:

Thanks for the reply, which I appreciate has taken some
considerable effort on your part, and does attempt to answer all
of the questions which I put. One question which I omitted, but
which you have provided an answer for in any case (thankyou!)
was the question of a link between mind control and ufology.

>1. UFO abductees are _clearly_ mind controlled! So anyone who is
>more or less accepting of the abduction experiences as actually
>happening should have no doubts that mind control (and _body_
>control,) by way of _technology_, is a fait accompli.

This raises several more questions. Many people, including myself
and also a number of abduction experiencers are not convinced of
the reality (in physical terms) of the experience. There are
several ways of looking at this in relation to mind control, but
it boils down to three generic options:

a) The abduction experience is real, and mind control is real.
b) The abduction experience is not real, but is induced by a form
of mind control.
c) Neither mind control or the abduction experience are real.

Each of the options above produce another set of specific
questions, most of which cannot be satisfactorily answered
currently (therefore none of the above can be shown to be
correct or incorrect).

>2. Antigravity is involuntarily imposed on a small number (maybe
>a dozen I know about) of mind control targets, myself included.
>Some have been levitated into mid air, others held against a
>wall and unable to get down. Not poltergeists, because of the
>extremely wide spectrum of other forms of harassment, too
>extensive to discuss here.

This again raises many more questions. The only one that I would
like to raise on-list is why you exclude poltergeist activity
(and presumably any explanation that does not involve mind
control)? The reason that you give above is "because of the
extremely wide spectrum of other forms of harassment, too
extensive to discuss here" yet you also say that the phenomenon
only applies to a small number of targets. The link appears to
me to be very tenuous, I don't see how there can be any element
of certainty.

>3. Interdimensional stunts are part of our experience. Rarely
>but definitely, possessions are made to disappear "right under
>the noses" of mind control targets. Feeling carefully and
>looking on uncluttered clean floors finds nothing. Then, in some
>cases, these objects are made to drop out of thin air into the
>laps of the targetted person, even in a _moving_ vehicle.

This phenomenon sounds identical to many reported poltergeist
cases. Again, I would question how you establish a direct link
between such phenomena and mind control?

>Another annoying one is the injection of air inside the upper
>lips, which occurs when the target is awake but trying to get to
>sleep, creating loud flatulence-like sounds. I assure the reader
>that this is _not_ air coming up from the lungs. Yet the lips
>are firmly closed, so to my mind, it's popping into 'my'
>dimension from another one.

This sounds bizarre, but there could be physiological
explanations. I think most people experience this occasionally,
particularly when their mouth is moist and they suddenly smile
or grimace. Could this not be a case of looking for something to
associate with mind control, and consequently reaching spurious
conclusions?

>4. Incredibly precise manipulation of body parts, without the
>use of the muscles, something which seems to occur in some
>abductions. I must sleep with a neck brace stuffed with foam
>rubber, otherwise, my controllers will force my jaw side to side
>or up and down like a wind-up "yakking" pair of teeth. Forced
>speech is attempted, though I haven't heard forced speech yet
>which is as clear as normal speech. The perpetrators are
>definitely working on it, though.

My ex-wife used to do this for periods during her sleep. She was
totally unaware of it, suffered no ill effects, and has no
sensation of being controlled, or abduction flashbacks etc. I
suspect that this is another possible spurious association.

>5. I've had John Velez' three symbols commonly seen by abductees
>posted on my web site's survey form for almost a year. These can
>be seen at the top left of the Abduction Information Center at:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html

>I did this initially out of simple curiosity. As it is turning
>out, about one person in ten who writes in and reports they have
>several or all of the symptoms of current-day mind control,
>_also_ has seen those symbols. In most cases, they cannot
>remember where.

I looked for the page with the symbols, but couldn't find it? It
would be interesting to substitute those symbols with symbols
unconnected with the abduction phenomenon and compare the
results over an extended period of time. I would not be
surprised to find that people reported seeing the unconnected
symbols during abduction experiences just as frequently. I think
it would be worth at least putting up a selection of 10 or so,
and asking people to select only three that they see during
experiences, and compare the results.

>These are some of the effects we experience which seem to have
>something in common with the abudctees, and are why I'm
>answering Joe's questions to the list, rather than privately.

>>I have seen many websites and posts alleging that at least the
>>US Government is involved in an active mind control programme.
>>None of them seem to present a rational analysis of the topic.
>>Here is a sample of the sort of questions that I would like to
>>know the answers to:

>>1. If an individual is being controlled, is it 24x7 or only for
>>specific periods?

<snip>

>- Current day "psycho-electronic" mind control. The name "mind
>control" isn't really comprehensive enough, but it is the most
>popular name. This is a 24/7 "total immersion", in-home and in-
>community version of mind/body attacks using UFO-level
>technology, and unrelenting non-electronic harassment too. Some
>of the people harassing us are told lies, and believe they are
>"doing good work for the community" by "harassing us to
>straighten us out so we can come to the Lord". Of course, we
>have committed no crimes, while these self-appointed vigilantes
>commit them regularly.

Firstly, I condemn the harrassment that you mention. I hope that
you don't take my posts as an example of that, I think there is
a difference between harrassment and challenging someone's
views. What I question above is the reference to "UFO-level
technology". How do you make this connection?

<snip>

(While I sympathise with the terrible situation of Terri Schiavo
and her family, I don't really think it is directly relevant to
the question in hand)

>That corruption reigns supreme is no longer in doubt. This
>_also_ has serious implications for UFOlogy too!

No legal system is perfect, and I suspect that the US legal
system is more open to political interference than the UK
system, but there must be _some_ conscientious and humanitarian
people in the US legal profession. If there was endemic abuse of
the system as you seem to imply, surely some insiders would have
blown whistles by now?

>Current-day psycho-electronic mind control is my area of
>expertise. We are not experts in the technology, but we are
>experts in what is happening to us.

This is slightly worrying to me.I appreciate that it is probably
difficult to get professionals (technological and medical) to
take an interest in the topic, but it is a little like getting
medical patients to issue diagnoses to each other based on their
own symptoms and with little or no professional training. I hope
that you understand my point?

>Current day mind control continues until death in most cases,
>once the victim is "enrolled" in this program.

>>2. Why are some people affected and not others?

>My survey form received 12,000 hits in 24 hours in April 2002,
>as a result of the survey form link being posted on a "strange
>news" web site. One percent, about 120, responded and said they
>had several or all of the symptoms. That may mean as many as one
>percent, or about three million North Americans are targetted.
>This in turn means the vast majority of North Americans are not
>currently targetted.

...or don't know that they are?

>There are a few common threads - people who "tick off" someone
>with a lot of money and influence tend to be enrolled in this
>mess.

Again, I think there is a strong possibility of erroneous
association. If someone gets a parking ticket every time they
park illegally, this doesn't mean that there is a campaign of
mind control directed at them, it's probably just bad luck. The
mind control platform gives people an opportunity to express
their dislike of authority, etc. and draws attention to their
(possibly unrelated) issues.

>The fact that two people who are physically close, even in an
>embrace, can experience entirely different effects, or one gets
>effects and the other gets none, demonstrates the incredible
>precision which the advanced signals are capable of. That,

...or the internal nature of the phenomenon.....

>together with the fact that even good electromagnetic shielding
>does _nothing_ to stop or even slow down the mind/body attack
>signals, tells me that the level of physics being wielded by the
>perpetrators is on a par with ESP.

... or some would say black magic, ie a curse?

>We see no evidence of unwieldy equipment being aimed at us, and
>the signals follow us even while hiking well away from
>civilization.  ESP is self-aiming, totally selective, and has no
>known range limit, and fits all of are effects very well. That
>is why, in my view, only some people are affected.

Again, this also suggests an internal rather than external cause
to me.

>>3. How do people know that they are victims of MC as opposed to
>>say some form of Schitzophrenia/Paranoia?

>Some of us have been examined by psychiatrists, as I have more
>than once. The result is "You show no signs of mental illness,
>however I [the doctor] cannot say what sort of targetting you
> may be receiving."

It's a funny thing, doctors can certify someone as insane, but
they can't certify someone as sane! (only fit to stand trial,
fly an aircraft, or hold the keys to the Nuclear storage area).
I think that the phenomenon (as opposed to individuals) could
benefit from detailed psychiatric/psychological investigation,
if only to eliminate these potential causes.

>But more compelling than that is the large amount of _small_,
>that is, _very_ carefully engineered sabotage, designed so as to
>prevent the official intervention of police. At work overnight,
>my work (any I left out rather than bringing home) was routinely

I suppose it depends on State privacy laws, but is it not
possible to arrange surveillance (covert or overt) in your
workspace with the support and agreement of management? Your
employers obviously have a vested interest in preventing people
from tampering with your work.

>sabotaged. My apartment is entered at least weekly, and my

Again, surveillance should identify the origin of this activity
and is becoming cheaper every day. Standard indoor survellance
cameras start at around $45, for $100 you can get them hidden in
smoke alarms, electrical fittings, book/video/dvd covers etc.
VCR's can be set up to record 8 hours using E240 tapes on LP
while you are out. If this is occuring as regularly as you
describe, you should eventually capture some evidence on video.
The alternative is to fit a good alarm system for about $300-
well worth peace of mind.

>clothing gets slow rips which are made bigger even if I don't
>wear the item (often in the crotches and armpits), my hard copy

There are a number of mundane potential causes for this,
particularly in areas that fit near joints.

>archives are stolen from, my computer is constantly sabotaged,

Again, physical and software security should be able to prevent
this or identify the perpetrators.

>new furniture gets snapped somehow soon after acquisition
>(including tensile breaks requiring thousands of pounds yet

Have you considered that you may just be very unlucky, and there
was a structural flaw?

>leaving no tool marks, or the back of a chair which was
>hacksawed off) and my consumable supplies are regularly dumped
>by small amounts, unless I mark and date every container. I live
>alone and this is not someone else in the apartment doing this.

Again, I suggest physical security. What you are starting to
describe is a physical campaign of harrassment, rather than any
form of ethereic mind control.

>This has been happening over eight different apartments in 23
>years and it is not just a case of one place where some sicko
>happened to have a key. In my current apartment I am the
>original occupant.

>>4. What is the mechanism used? I know of two proposed methods,
>>one using electromagnetic radiation, the other using social
>>cultivation. In either case, I refer back to Q.1 (if the attack
>>is 24x7), it needs to reach the victim in a wide variety of
>>locations and Q.2- how is either method made selective over large
>>distances?

>The only explanation that fits is that the same signal type
>which is responsible for ESP is also being used by perpetrator
>equipment.

... mmmm... why would they then use a hacksaw to attack your
chair?

>This is not as far-out as it sounds. Czech engineer Robert
>Pavlita, back in the 1960s, using information from ancient
>texts, found a way to transfer psychic abilities to inanimate
>objects which he called "psychotronic generators". So we have
>already had, on Earth, primitive "equipment" capable of
>performing ESP-level effects.

I am not familiar with Pavlita's work, but it doesn't seem to
have reached the marketplace since the 1960's. It sounds a bit
like some of the "Free energy" scams.

>Cold War Soviet scientists spent huge sums researching
>psychotronic generators for military purposes, but the results
>of that research have not been made public.

>See "Psychic Discoveries" by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder
>for details.

>http://www.raven1.net/psydisc.htm

>>5. Surely one aspect of the "control" would be to prevent the
>>victim from becoming aware of it?

>I can't explain the mind state of people so mentally ill as to
>torture other people. We have some _un_ verifiable writings sent
>to us anonymously by people claiming to be the perpetrators, if
>you would like to check those out:

>http://www.raven1.net/perpsurv.htm

These are less than worthless, more likely to add confusion and
disinformation rather than any insight into potential MC
operations. I especially like the one who was "cut off from
society" by the FBI, yet managed to fill in an internet form!

>If you look at the FBI COINTELPRO crimes, from the mid 1950s and
>supposedly into the 1970s, they made extensive use of highly
>visible "surveillance", that is, harassment. Sometimes, powerful
>organizations _want_ the target to _know_ they are being
>harassed. I can't explain their motives.

>http://www.raven1.net/warathom.htm

Fair comment, I can see how overt surveillance may serve some
purpose, but if someone is aware that an attempt is being made
to excercise control over them, they can then resist the
attempt. If they are successful, they become "out of control"
and therefore the purpose of the control is defeated and may be
terminally compromised.

>It is obvious that our roughly 2,000 members world wide, of
>people who have finally realized their "bad luck" is actually
>harassment, are being targetted by people who _want_ us to know.

Or are they 2,000 unlucky people trying to find an explanation
for their bad luck?

>>6. If the source is electromagnetic, what frequencies are used?
>>If that is known then it should be easy to detect and map out
>an area of operation, and trace the source.

>If we take _all_ the effects, and their unshieldability using
>conventional electromagnetic shielding, the signal can't be
>conventional electromagnetic.

I'm not so sure - VLF (very low frequency) is relatively immune
to conventional EM shielding, since objects (even geological
formations) can resonate and "repeat" the signal. VLF is also
known to cause physiological effects, and has been a subject of
experimentation as a "secret weapon". See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
1012039&dopt=Abstract

for instance. The main difficulty of VLF being the source of the
phenomenon is in specifically targetting  _individuals_ over
large distances.

>We do have some anomalous electromagnetic signals which are
>unusual but do not operate in sync with the mind/body effects. A
>drawing of a scope trace in my apartment is here:

>http://www.raven1.net/scoptrac.gif

It may be relevant that both 120 Hz and 180 Hz are harmonics of
the US domestic mains frequency (60 Hz). Also, I don't know if
you live close to an institution involved in laser or linear
acceleration research (whatever that is), but 120Hz appears to
have some significance in this field, see:

http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/lcls/technotes/LCLS-TN-02-7.pdf

60 and 120 Hz are also commonly used in video equipment,
including PC video cards.

>Interesting that using an AM radio, the loopstick antenna of
>which is fairly directional, as a direction finder, this signal
>seems to peak at a point in mid-air just above my pillow. This
>has been true of the last three places I've lived.

I would expect to find similar peaks at a uniform height and
uniform orientation throughout the locale, but it is difficult
to test because of the influence of any large masses (eg human
bodies or even furniture and building structure) in proximity to
the antenna. It is entirely possible that a focal point could be
naturally present in the location described, and even appear to
"follow" you if you move your bed, if the bedframe and your body
are a major influence.

>Using the fairly decent "Tri Field Meters",

>http://www.TriField.com

>(which, by the way, should make excellent "UFO detectors" for
>abductees,) and frequency counters, we have not found any
>signals which consistently are in sync with body effects.

>In the ghost investigation arena, ghost appearances are
>accompanied by electromagnetic activity which seems to be a kind
>of "by product" of the main event. I suspect the advanced mind
>control signals may cause similar "by product" EM signals but
>which are not the actual harassment-carrying signal.

>That's only scratching the surface, but it's my answer to your
>questions.

Thanks, your answers are appreciated, but as I expected they
raise even more questions. It is possible that some of the ill
effects described could be a result of strong VLF emissions
(possibly from innocent sources), and that is an avenue which
you may like to explore further, particularly the 120/180 Hz
signal.


Regards,

Joe











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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 22

                     Re: A Demonic Conspiracy - Christol

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:46:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:22:23 -0400
Subject: Re: A Demonic Conspiracy - Christol


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:32:04 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>So, Terry, are you saying that the Fatama Incident was probably
>>a demonic manifestation as well?


>Mike,

>I'm just the messenger here, although I do consider noting what
>is going on inside the head and what is going on outside the
>head as a mystery wrapped in an enigma, etc. At face value these
>Fatima and other divine light stories are just that, stories.

Yes, I understand that you are just the messenger Terry. Nothing
personal intended... just questioning the idea.

In response to: "although I do consider noting what is going on
inside the head and what is going on outside the head as a
mystery wrapped in an enigma, etc. At face value these Fatima
and other divine light stories are just that, stories."


Ah, yes... but the same could be said of most all UFO reports,
if one wished to travel that road.

No, proof. No artifacts presented to the public, just videos of
something, real or model; photos. again the same... I think we
spend far to much time trying to prove the "story" to ourselves,
that we forget about the "story teller."

Who am I to tell this person, or someone else, that I think S/he
is just a glory seeker or a fraud?

Unless I personally have the said experience, I can not know if
it is a real event. Again, even if I have the experience, I
still cannot know for sure that it is a real event.  All I know
is that something impinged on my senses.

Did it really happen, or was it an illusion? We have mental
hospitals full of people who are told they are "off center," and
locked up for their protection and the protection of the public,
because they tell stories which have no basis in known
phenomena, as accepted by authorities in this political system.

Take care.

Mike









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   Oct > Oct 22

                   Durham Residents & Officers Report UFO

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:50:47 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:13:47 -0400
Subject: Durham Residents & Officers Report UFO


Source: NBC 17.com, NC

http://www.nbc17.com/news/2569877/detail.html

Object Had Green-Colored Tail

Posted: 12:46 PM EDT October 21, 2003

DURHAM, N.C. -- Six people in Durham, including two police
officers, reported seeing a green-colored object flying through
the sky Monday night.

Durham police Lt. Morris Taylor told The Herald-Sun the object
appeared to be a shooting star but it was unlike any he had ever
seen. "It was pretty wild looking," Taylor told the newspaper.
"It looked comparable to the size of the moon in the sky."

Police dispatchers say around 8:45 p.m. Monday they began
receiving calls about an unidentified flying object. Durham
County Sheriff's Deputy Brad O'Briant told The Herald-Sun he was
on U.S. 70 when he saw the object over Interstate 40. O'Briant
said its tail had a distinctive greenish-white hue and was
moving very quickly across the sky. Several pilots at Raleigh-
Durham International Airport also reported seeing the object,
though air traffic controllers caught no sight of it. Durham
dispatchers said they received reports of sightings around South
Miami Boulevard and Page Road, Duke Forest, and as far north as
the Little River area.







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                             UMMO-Like Cylinder

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:57:47 -0400
Subject: UMMO-Like Cylinder


List,

A couple months ago I received an email by a person calling
himself Pavel, who claimed to have found a strange object buried
in the woods near his home in Perm, Russia. According to Pavel,
the object had been ejected from a UFO. During my subsequent
correspondence with him, Pavel rejected my suggestion to take
the mystery object to a properly equipped lab for analysis and,
inexplicably, decided to send the artifact to me via
international post. I agreed, wondering what exactly I was
getting into. Pavel had described the object's anomalous
physical characteristics: the Braille-like figure had supposedly
changed by itself and the cylinder's metallic surface would grow
hot after being touched with no evident mechanical cause. These
and other properties apparently worried him that the object's
original owners would return for it, possibly endangering his
family.

I shortly received an email from Pavel claiming that overseas
shipping was more expensive than he had expected and requesting
me to send money to assist in the artifact's delivery. I
declined and email from "Pavel" immediately ceased. From the
beginning, I had realized that the possibility of my being
hoaxed was very real, and Pavel's request for funds seemed to
cinch the matter. But I had become interested in the cylinder's
basic resemblance to similar objects associated with the
infamous UMMO hoax (see Jacques Vallee's "Revelations: Alien
Contact and Human Deception"). Even the "Z"-shaped glyph on the
object's underside bore a vague resemblance to UMMO's trademark
stylized "H." Was Pavel operating (perhaps unknowingly) as an
agent for a Russian offshoot of the ostensibly defunct UMMO
cult?

To see Pavel's drawing of the cylinder, see:

http://www.mactonnies.com/saucers.html

Has anyone on the list received similar correspondence?

=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)








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               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 04:41:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:12:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


My fellow Listerions,

I still would like to know if the flying triangles really are
under a D notice? From what I remember, the original poster said
that information was from someone in the press who did not
reveal his name, so he is an "anonymous source".

I wonder if it would be possible to obtain an answer through
canvassing other sources, such as various British media and
someone within the MOD? It is difficult to give authority to an
anonymous source without legitimate evidence.


Josh





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               Famed Abduction Therapist Constance Clear Dies

From: Louise A. Lowry <ShnSassy1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:57:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:07:18 -0400
Subject: Famed Abduction Therapist Constance Clear Dies


Source: Unknowncountry

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=3235

Famed Abduction Therapist Constance Clear Dies

21-Oct-2003


Constance Clear

Famed and beloved abduction therapist Constance Clear died this
morning in a hospital in Phoenix, from complications arising
from injuries sustained in a motorcycle accident a month ago.

Whitley and Anne Strieber and Constance Clear were close
friends. Constance was the author/editor of Reaching for
Reality, the only book ever written by a group of abductees
describing their own experiences. She was a skilled therapist
and researcher, and had a powerful healing relationship with her
clients.

She was also a radio host and frequent talk show guest. She had
recently moved to Sholo, Arizona to begin a new career, that of
novelist. She was also, as always, ready to give her time and
effort to any abductee who needed help. Constance was a rare and
wonderful human being, and her loss is felt keenly by all who
loved her.

The number of licensed masters of social work and psychologists
who are willing and able to support abductees and close
encounter witnesses in a fair and open-minded manner is very
small, and her loss, for that reason, is a tremendous one in
this community.

We at Unknowncountry know that you will be praying for her safe
journey onward, and also that her passing may inspire others to
seek to fill her shoes, and see past their biases to the unique
and compelling needs of all who have close encounters. Connie
was fifty-three.


--
World Of The Strange Forum:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/modules.php?name=Forums

#1 Para-Discussion List:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Para-Discuss/








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              Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:28:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:14:21 -0400
Subject: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident


This cross-post was sent to me and I am posting it for
responses. It is amazing that Cecil Adams is so convinced by the
Mogul hypothesis.

Cecil Adams and Paul Davids debate the Roswell Incident

Subject: Letter from Roswell Producer
Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:20:41 GMT
From: videodog@cybergate.com (Joe Thor)
Organization: Cybergate Information Services
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors, alt.conspiracy
Producer of Roswell UFO movie responds to Cecil
From sjf36@aol.com (SJF 36)
Organization America Online, Inc.
(1-800-827-6364)
Date 3 Jul 1996 09:16:07 -0400 Newsgroups
alt.fan.cecil-adams Message-ID <4rdrqn$5a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

(NOTE: This is a cross-post from "Cecil's Junk Drawer" in The
Straight Dope site on America Online. -D)

[The Straight Dope column to which Paul Davids refers below can
be found in the "Recent Columns" section.] Dear Mr. Adams:
Regarding your column on the Roswell UFO Incident, May 31, 1996,
I was Executive Producer and Co-writer of the movie mentioned in
the letter to you, called "Roswell" starring Kyle MacLachlan and
Martin Sheen. I have also produced a commercial video ("Reply to
the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident") which contradicts
everything you wrote, most of which you collected from Phil
Klass, a now well-past-the-age-of-retirement debunker who has
never even passed muster as a dispassionate skeptic and who is
reviled by everyone I know as a disingenuous and intellectually
dishonest writer on UFO's who's followed a slash-and-burn agenda
on every UFO case for decades, while enjoying a cozy
relationship with the defense establishment during his career as
an editor for an aviation magazine. He should have stuck to his
promise in OMNI magazine to retire from writing about UFO's five
years ago and saved me the hour or so it's taken me to draft
this letter.

Your Straight Dope on the Roswell Incident is uninformed
malarky, as far as I'm concerned, after nearly ten years of
examining this case and after passionately fighting through four
years of rejections to finally get the movie "Roswell" made. I
fought for one reason -- which had nothing to do with
entrepreneurship or fostering a cottage industry. I wanted the
truth to get out there, and it has, and here are the known facts
which your readers -- and you -- deserve to read: The Government
Accounting Office (the GAO) recently reported that the military
documents that could have explained the Roswell Incident
(outgoing messages from the commanding officer and others at the
Roswell Army Air Field 1947) were destroyed without proper
authorization decades ago. The Air Force never fessed up to that
in their 1994 report. Instead, they wrote a 22 page report with
about 1,000 pages of virtually worthless "supporting materials"
that have no provable connection to the Roswell Incident
whatsoever.

I long ago concluded that the Mogul balloon report is a weak
effort to "spin" the issue and contradicts or ignores witness
testimony -- and much of that testimony I personally delivered
on tape to the GAO, which found no support for the Air Force's
and Charles Moore's claim that the incident can be explained by
a Project Mogul balloon train. In fact, Charles Moore's attempt
to explain the "strange writing" on the Roswell debris as being
flower designs on tape that held together a flimsy balsa wood
radar reflector is disputed by the only living witness who has
testified about the writing he saw on the debris: Dr. Jesse
Marcel, Jr. He categorically states that the symbols he saw on
the debris were embossed on metal, they were not designs on
tape. He is a flight surgeon and practicing physician, and has
investigated crashes for the military. His father was Jesse
Marcel (upon whom we based the main character in our movie,
played by Kyle MacLachlan), a Roswell Intelligence Officer who
described the Roswell Debris in about 1978, on videotape, as
having been "not made on this earth." The dates of the Mogul
launches and the written records of the then-secret program do
not indicate any launch with instrument packages that coincides
in time with the Roswell Incident.

The soldiers at Roswell were among the best trained and most
trusted in the country -- don't forget, it was the only base at
that time that had responsibility for the atomic bomb and also
had the planes to deploy the bomb. These men, many of whom later
claimed in "video depositions" that what crashed was "not made
on earth" did not make an error such as mistaking five pounds of
conventional debris (balsa wood, conventional foil, etc.) for
something extraordinary, and to claim they did is ludicrous.
There's reliable testimony that it was the Base Commander (Col.
Blanchard) who ordered release of the original announcement that
a flying saucer had been captured -- it was not initiated by low
ranking soldiers. Three generals have publicly gone on record
(and are on tape -- see my "Reply to the Air Force Report") as
supporting key aspects of the fact that there was a major
coverup, and that includes (1) Senator (and General) Barry
Goldwater, former head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who
has written letters stating and has stated on TV that he takes
the "crashed spaceship" explanation very seriously, (2) Brig.
General Arthur Exon, former Base Commander of Wright Patterson
Air Force Base (where the debris and alien bodies were
reportedly taken), who confirms on tape it was an
extraterrestrial crash with bodies and that "the coverup won't
end until all those originally involved with the coverup are
deceased," and (3) Brig. General Thomas DuBose, who said the
"revised explanation" in 1947 that it was a weather balloon was
a cover story concocted on orders that came down from those
reporting directly to the Commander in Chief, President Truman,
and that false debris that had nothing to do with the Roswell
Incident was shown to reporters in Gen. Ramey's office and
passed off on the public as the Roswell debris.

At the time I executive produced the film, I felt the weight of
the testimony, which I reviewed, from dozens of military men and
townspeople, made the extraterrestrial explanation credible, and
not one alternative explanation has fit the facts as reported by
people involved whom I came to know, or their families, or their
testimony which I had to hear on tape because they were deceased
when I became involved. After making the movie, I knew enough
about the case to be able to dismiss the Mogul Balloon
explanation offered in 1994 by the Air Force as another ruse to
obscure the issue, though the New York Times and Associated
Press accepted it without investigation or inquiry, to the
considerable disservice of the public. Last July, I was invited
to make that point as the keynote banquet speaker at the White
Sands Missile Range Pioneers 50th anniversary celebration,
attended by about 200 members of all branches of service,
including reps from the Department of Defense and major defense
research labs. Within the last several months, I have been
personally informed by Astronaut Gordon Cooper, in a face to
face meeting, that Roswell did involve the recovery of a crashed
extraterrestrial spaceship, that our movie (which he saw) was
largely accurate, that there has been a half century of official
denial and official lies about it continuing to this day, and
that he has a very close friend who saw the alien bodies. Gordon
Cooper was one of the original Mercury Seven Astronauts. He
filmed a flying saucer that even landed at close range while in
the service and said the filmed evidence of the inexplicable and
technologically advanced craft was "buried" by the Pentagon and
ignored by Project Blue Book, which said it could find no
credible evidence for the existence of flying saucers. Astronaut
Edgar Mitchell, who walked on the moon, believes the weight of
the evidence is that Roswell was an extraterrestrial event and
he publicly suggested, recently, that those who knowingly
withheld the facts from astronauts who went to the moon are
"criminally liable" for essentially using astronauts as guinea
pigs while not telling them the truth about what is known about
alien life forms visiting earth. Recently, I received
correspondence from President Clinton, thanking me for sending
him video testimony which confirms the coverup and which
thoroughly undermines the Mogul Balloon disinformation that was
served up to him by the Air Force. His personal letter,
expressing gratitude for my materials that demolished the Air
Force report, was overnighted to me coinciding with a much-
publicized press conference in Washington D.C. by science writer
and former NASA consultant Richard Hoagland, presenting evidence
that NASA has buried or ignored mysterious lunar and Martian
anomalies that strongly appear to suggest artificial structures.

The President's letter to me (which followed mine to him by
about three months) also preceded by one or two days an
announcement by NASA that finding evidence of ET life will be
its highest priority for the future, including the search for
evidence of such life (even from the distant past) in our own
solar system on Mars and the moon. I have no information to
support the "alien autopsy" film broadcast by FOX and have been
very skeptical of it from the outset, when it suddenly "came to
light" in the months after our film was broadcast. (By the way,
"Roswell" was nominated for a Golden Globe for Best TV Movie of
1994 by the Hollywood Foreign Press.) I do not endorse the FOX
autopsy film, though I note that there has been no conclusive
"smoking gun" one way or the other yet, and most statements are
"going on instinct" or on personal impressions rather than
personal experience, personal knowledge or proof. Nevetheless,
the special effects people I have worked with dismiss it, and it
does seem to obscure the issue and the facts of the Roswell
case. The fact that someone unknown released less than
convincing film of a purported alien autopsy in no way
diminishes or detracts from the evidence and testimony that
there was the crash of an ET craft at Roswell. In fact, there is
every reason to believe that real exhibits, in the form of
artifacts, debris, specimens, photos and motion picture film
does exist and is still being witheld.

Former Command Sergeant Major Bob Dean, formerly of SHAPE
(Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) states that as part
of his job in the military in Europe he was shown a classified
document, "The Assessment," that revealed that the military has
evidence and exhibits of numerous extraterrestrial craft
conducting a surveillance of the earth, and that this certain
knowledge has demoralized those of high rank who are in the
know. Recently, billionaire Laurence Rockefeller released 1000
copies of a report he sponsored to various heads of State and
key Senators and Congressmen, as well as key people in the
Clinton Administration. The report on UFO's presented in a sober
and somber way many cases which offer overwhelming support of
the thesis that flying saucers are real and that there may be no
alternative to confirming the extraterrestrial hypothesis in the
near future. Interestingly, the report avoided the debate on the
Roswell Incident and presented powerful evidence on the UFO
issue, dated up to the very recent past, without it.

Mr. Adams, may I suggest you change the name of your column to
"The Dope," unless you're prepared to show some hubris and admit
in print that you leaped before you looked. Your "Straight Dope"
on the Roswell Incident is fiction, and not even consistent or
well thought out fiction. If you want the version closest to the
truth, as Gordon Cooper and so many others have confirmed,
advise your readers to rent the movie "Roswell" at any local
video store. The Alexandria II Bookstore in Pasadena has my
"Reply to the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident" for
rent. Sincerely, Paul Davids Executive Producer / Co-Writer of
"Roswell"

Cecil Adams replies: I think the word you're looking for in your
last paragraph is "humility," not "hubris." But let's not
nitpick. I have attempted to address some of the contentions in
your letter below.

1. PHIL KLASS IS INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST, REVILED, ETC.
Nonsense. I spoke with two prominent UFO researchers, Karl
Pflock and Kevin Randle. Both have written books about Roswell
and believed there was some basis to the stories about crashed
spaceships. Pflock no longer believes these stories but Randle
still does and in fact he was a technical consultant for your
movie. Although both men had fundamental disagreements with Phil
Klass, they spoke well of him and said he was a person of
integrity. Both said they found you rather credulous.

2. THE MILITARY DESTROYED KEY DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE CASE
WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION. Three years' worth of outgoing messages
from Roswell were destroyed during housecleaning, apparently
when the military records center was moved from Kansas City to
St. Louis. The destruction of records was handled somewhat
casually but government archivists doubt this can be attributed
to a conspiracy. In any case indications are that the Roswell
affair was handled largely by telephone. There is no question
that the military was genuinely concerned about UFOs during the
late 1940s and early 1950s. Secret documents declassified in the
mid-1980s reveal anxious discussions on the subject among high-
level officials. However, none of these documents indicate that
the government had any physical evidence of crashed saucers or
the like. On the contrary, a number of documents lament the lack
of such evidence.

3. JESSE MARCEL, JR., SAYS THE STRANGE SYMBOLS HE SAW ON THE
DEBRIS WERE EMBOSSED ON THE METAL, NOT PRINTED ON TAPE. Jesse
Marcel, Jr., was a child at the time of the incident. Nearly 50
years have passed. Marcel's statements regarding the debris have
made him a celebrity on the UFO circuit. 'Nuff said.

4. THE DATES OF THE SECRET PROJECT MOGUL BALLOON LAUNCHES DO NOT
COINCIDE WITH THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Baloney. A 600-foot-long
string of two dozen weather balloons and several kitelike radar
reflectors was launched from Alamogordo, N.M., on June 4, 1947.
Contact with the balloons was lost when they were less than 20
miles from the Brazel ranch. Mac Brazel found the mysterious
debris June 14. Contemporary descriptions of the debris suggest
its appearance was similar to that of a wrecked balloon train.

5. BARRY GOLDWATER TAKES THE "CRASHED SPACESHIP" EXPLANATION
VERY SERIOUSLY. So? Sen. Goldwater has no personal knowledge of
Roswell. Neither do any of the other famous names you cite.

6. GEN. EXON SAYS IT WAS AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRASH WITH BODIES.
Gen. Exon's statements were based on hearsay. He did not become
commander at Wright Patterson until many years after the Roswell
incident. He never saw any debris.

7. GEN. DUBOSE SAYS THE "WEATHER BALLOON" STORY WAS CONCOCTED ON
ORDERS FROM ABOVE. Of course. The weather balloon story was
intended to conceal the Project Mogul experiment, a secret
Pentagon project to develop a way to detect anticipated Russian
atom bomb tests.

8. FORMER SGT. BOB DEAN SAYS HE SAW A SECRET MEMO SAYING THE
MILITARY HAS EVIDENCE OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL SPACECRAFT. Neither
Pflock nor Randle found Dean's statements believable. Although I
don't suppose there's much chance of persuading you, Paul,
others may be interested in Karl Pflock's story. He describes
himself as skeptical about Roswell but says "there's still a
chunk of [UFO] data that can't be explained by known science."
Pflock initially was inclined to believe the Roswell UFO stories
and spent nearly four years researching them. However, "when I
got into it, a whole lot of what had been claimed turned out not
to have been true at all," he says. Pflock says he now doesn't
think Roswell had anything to do with aliens. "The congruence
between the Project Mogul equipment and what we know about the
[Roswell] debris is just too great to be dismissed." He plans to
discuss the matter in a book to be published on the 50th
anniversary of the incident entitled, "The Roswell UFO Mystery:
Legend and Reality." Everybody says you know how to make an
entertaining movie, though.

--








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                           Secrecy News - 10/22/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:36:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:33:42 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News - 10/22/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 91
October 22, 2003


**      DOE INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DATA SUPPRESSED, RESTORED
**      DOJ IG ASKED TO INVESTIGATE CENSORSHIP OF REPORT
**      MISSILE PROLIFERATION IN SOUTH ASIA
**      GARWIN RECEIVES NATIONAL MEDAL OF SCIENCE


DOE INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DATA SUPPRESSED, RESTORED

Unlike most other U.S. intelligence agencies, the Department of
Energy Office of Intelligence requests and receives its budget
appropriation each year on an unclassified basis. But now the
government has moved to block public access to DOE intelligence
budget information.

For years, DOE intelligence spending was described in budget
documents that were posted on the DOE web site. Until recently,
for example, the DOE budget request for FY 2004 intelligence
spending was available on this page, as the third item listed
under "Other Defense Activities":

http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/04budget/index.htm

Now this information on intelligence spending has been deleted.
According to a note included by the DOE webmaster in the html
coding of this page, the portions on intelligence were removed on
"7/28/03 per J. Campbell request."

Similar excisions of intelligence budget information have been
made to all previous budget documents on the DOE web site dating
back to 1999, all with the same internal annotation.

A DOE official told Secrecy News that "J. Campbell" referred to
James Campbell, the Department's acting chief financial officer.
He said that Mr. Campbell had ordered the documents removed last
summer at the request of the DOE Office of Intelligence which
wanted to review them for possible "sensitivity." A call to the
Office of Intelligence was referred to an official at the Office
of General Counsel who was not available.

The past publication of DOE intelligence spending was not due to
an accident or a "leak." It was a routine, standard practice
extending back more than a decade. No plausible security
rationale has been offered for changing this practice. Two DOE
classification experts confirmed that the spending data is
unclassified.

Therefore all of the deleted material is being republished on the
FAS web site here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doe/budget.html

DOE intelligence spending surfaced as an issue in an FAS Freedom of
Information Act lawsuit seeking declassification of the 2002
intelligence budget total.

Earlier this year, the Central Intelligence Agency erroneously
told a federal court that "the entire intelligence
appropriations process is structured to ensure the secrecy of
intelligence-related expenditures." To refute this claim, FAS
cited the unclassified DOE intelligence appropriation. Shortly
afterward, the intelligence budget data was removed from the DOE
web site.

In constructing the argument for declassification of the budget
total, FAS has benefitted from the expert assistance of John
Pike of GlobalSecurity.org and A. Bryan Siebert, former director
of the DOE Office of Declassification. The lawsuit remains
pending.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/2002/index.html


DOJ IG ASKED TO INVESTIGATE CENSORSHIP OF REPORT

The Justice Department is routinely asked to investigate
unauthorized disclosures ("leaks") of classified information.
But now the Department is being asked to investigate what may be
an unauthorized and possibly illegal withholding of information
from public disclosure.

Last week, the Justice Department released a heavily censored
version of a 2002 study it commissioned on diversity in its
workforce:

 http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/readingrooms/diversityanalysis.pdf

Due to an inept redaction process, the censored portions
inadvertently became public and the full uncensored report was
published by TheMemoryHole.org here:

 http://www.thememoryhole.org/feds/doj-attorney-diversity.htm

The withheld material adds some insight into the subject of
workplace diversity, but it reveals a lot more about the Justice
Department's indiscriminate information policies.

Large sections of the censored material do not appear to qualify
for withholding under the Freedom of Information Act. They are
factual in nature and not, as the cover page of the document
would have it, exempt as "deliberative" information that may be
withheld under the FOIA's exemption 5.

"The redactions are unbelievable," said researcher Michael
Ravnitzky. "The document is redacted to such an extent that it
demonstrates a reckless disregard of existing DOJ instructions,
standard agency procedures and court decisions."

The Federation of American Scientists wrote to the Justice
Department Inspector General today to request an investigation
of the censorship of this document.

"The unintended disclosure of the full text of this report
suggests that Department officials are routinely withholding
information in bad faith, or that they are acting in ignorance
of the binding disclosure requirements of the Freedom of
Information Act," the FAS letter said. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/10/dojig102203.pdf

"The arbitrary withholding of information from the public is a
terribly corrosive practice that undermines confidence in
government," the letter stated.


MISSILE PROLIFERATION IN SOUTH ASIA

The policy implications of missile proliferation in South Asia -
India and Pakistan - are the subject of a new report from
the Congressional Research Service.

See "Missile Proliferation and the Strategic Balance in South
Asia" by Andrew Feickert and K. Alan Kronstadt, October 17,
2003:

http://fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RL32115.pdf


GARWIN RECEIVES NATIONAL MEDAL OF SCIENCE

President Bush awarded the National Medal of Science to Richard
L. Garwin and seven other scientists, the National Science
Foundation announced in a press release today:

http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/03/pr03121.htm

Garwin was recognized for his numerous and diverse contributions
to science and technology over several decades.

Dick Garwin is a longtime sponsor, supporter and board member of
the Federation of American Scientists and a friend to Secrecy
News. Dozens of his publications on arms control and national
security are available at the FAS Garwin Archive here:

http://www.fas.org/rlg/index.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                         Re: Remote Viewing? - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:33:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:44:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Pope


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:05:56 +0000
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:16:53 +0200
>>>Subject: Remote Viewing?

>>>Do some of you have personal experiences with remote viewing and
>>>Alien-activity? Tell us your experiences... because all this
>>>will help our research, and the research of other authors.

>>Thierry -

>>"Help" authors and researchers is an extreme understatement!

>>Remote viewing is the most powerful way available to learn the
>>truth about UFOs, alien activity, government cover up, you name
>>it. I say _bravo_ and God speed and _thanks_ to you for raising
>>this issue.

>>It is absolutely _tragic_ that people in the West, seniour UFO
>>researchers, scientists, the media, heap ridicule on what is so
>>obviously the "next level" of scientific progress, instead of
>>taking advantage of this technology with all possible speed.

>Eleanor,

>Which "remote viewers" do you believe? Presumably you are
>familiar with the Stanford experiments which basically proved
>that sometimes some people seem to make "hits," but who, when,
>and how reliably is very uncertain. Ignotiius per ignotium.

Dick and List,

When I was running the Ministry of Defence's UFO project I used,
by default, to receive reports of and questions about other
paranormal phenomena. Several people contacted me claiming to be
"remote viewers". Not all of them used this phrase. Some
referred to psychic abilities, or ESP. The bottom line was that
they were offering their services to the Government, as psychic
spies.

I used to tell these people that I'd run a test, and place an
object on top of my television that evening. I asked them to
call me back the following day and tell me what the object was.
Some never got back to me, and all those that did got it wrong.

It wasn't science, and I didn't pretend it was, but it was
interesting nonetheless.

On a related matter, those not familiar with it may like to
check out John Alexander's book "The Warrior's Edge". It's
essentially a book about management strategies, but the material
on remote viewing predated the populist hype on this subject:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688088899/103-7681710-9013453?v=g
lance


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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   Oct > Oct 22

                            Alien Abduction Study

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:12:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:47:50 -0400
Subject: Alien Abduction Study


List,

A scientific study into the alien abduction phenomenon is to be
undertaken by psychologists at Goldsmiths College, University of
London.

Details of the study, including contact details for abductees
wishing to take part, can be found at the following link:

http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/press-releases/pressrelease.php?releaseID=238


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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                    Probing The Minds Of Alien Abductees

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:04:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:04:53 -0400
Subject: Probing The Minds Of Alien Abductees





Source: Goldsmiths College University of London

http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/press-releases/pressrelease.php?releaseID=238

Press Release


Probing The Minds Of Alien Abductees

Published: 02 October 2003 14:00

Are extraterrestrials really abducting people against their will
and conducting experiments on them, or are such reports simply a
product of the human mind, a modern myth? Psychologists at
Goldsmiths College, University of London, are to about to begin
research into this fascinating phenomenon.

According to Professor Chris French, Head of the Anomalistic
Psychology Research Unit (APRU) at Goldsmiths' Psychology
Department, which will undertake the research: "Abductees report
a wide range of experiences; the research project aims to test
not only the psychological aspects of the abduction experience,
but also to find out more about the other kinds of experiences
that abductees report, and includes some tests for psychic
abilities."

The research is supported by other UFO investigators. Nick Pope,
head of the UK Government's UFO project in the early 1990s,
gives his opinion: "Whether you think the phenomenon is
psychological or parapsychological, you should welcome this
study. Whatever the true nature of the phenomenon, we'll learn
more about it."

Judith Jaafar, Chair of the British UFO Research Association
(BUFORA), comments: "I am pleased that an academic body in
Britain taking steps to understand the source of this compelling
phenomenon. It may throw up more questions than answers, but
that has always been the way forward in true, objective
scientific endeavour."

Malcolm Robinson, Founder of Strange Phenomena Investigations
(SPI): "Chris French and his team should be commended for
undertaking this study that will shed a little more light upon
this modern mystery. SPI looks forward to the results of this
project with eager anticipation."

Anyone who believes that they have had an alien abduction
experience and would like to take part in the project should
email apru@gold.ac.uk or contact Rachel Fox, 020 7919 7171 (ext
4389), for further information.

Notes to Editors
The ten-month project, which begins in October, is being
supported by the Bial Foundation of Portugal, which has provided
a 36,000 Euro grant. The project team includes Chris French,
Rachel Fox, Krissy Wilson and Julia Santomauro (APRU members)
and Dr Michael Thalbourne (parapsychologist, APRU, University of
Adelaide), with James Basil and Mark Gibbons (Foundation for the
Research of Extraordinary Trauma & Support for Abductees) acting
as consultants.


For further information

Janet Aikman, Communications and Publicity,
tel 020 7919 7909
e-mail ext-comms@gold.ac.uk

Professor Chris French, Department of Psychology,
tel 020 7919 7882
e-mail c.french@gold.ac.uk


Goldsmiths College,
University of London,
New Cross,
London SE14 6NW, UK
Telephone +44 (0) 20 7919 7171







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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:26:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:10:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:33:48 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:59:50 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:15:19 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>Patient and gentle listfolk:

>Who is most likely to go to the newspapers and investigators
>with their account of this event:

>1) Someone who saw the UFO and can confirm the story.
>2) Someone who saw nothing.

>Yes, I thought so.

>What does it imply then, when the only people who give any
>account of this event are the photographer, and two of his mates
>from his sports club?


I see how this works. The sun is a paper plate, ignited an then
thrown across the sky every day... That is a _lot_ easier to
internalize than a huge flaming globe of gravity and exploding
hydrogen that could flare at a moment's notice and incinerate
the whole of Earth's surface down to about a mile.....


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:06:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:22:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:33:48 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:59:50 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:15:19 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


Patient and gentle listfolk:

>>If the Trindade photographs were a hoax, a proposition for which
>>no evidence has yet been advanced or uncovered by official
>>investigators, journalists, debunkers, or ufologists (or anybody
>>else for that matter), it would have been easily disprovable,
>>for reasons I have stated more than once now (most recently
>>above) and which, I am sure, no List member other than John has
>>had difficulty grasping.

>>Until John can produce a negative witness or witnesses, of whom
>>there would have been an abundance if the case were a hoax,
>>further discussion is pointless. Meantime, we may anticipate new
>>developments on other fronts.

>Amazing, isn't it, how Jerry always manages to clip the awkward
>questions from the postings he is replying to. I urge thone
>(very few) who are interested to refer back to earlier
>correspondence in this thread, and the detailed discussions many
>moons ago about Trindade, and see just who is rendering this
>argument pointless.

Incredibly, John continues to hurl stones from a glass house -
well, actually by now the shards of what once was a house.

>Question: There is a spectaular UFO sighting, with many
>witnesses, up to 150 in some accounts, 48 in others. Several
>impressive photographs are taken which are published in the
>national and international press. The sighting is publicised
>internationally, and is investigated by the government.

>Who is most likely to go to the newspapers and investigators
>with their account of this event:

>1) Someone who saw the UFO and can confirm the story.
>2) Someone who saw nothing.

After I recovered and got up from the floor having laughed
myself out of my chair, I'll just have to repeat:

If, as John wants to believe and wants the rest of us to swallow
whole, there were no witnesses on the ship - and, as in fact
happened, the story received massive publicity focused in good
part on the presence of all those alleged witnesses - why to
this day, nearly five decades later, has not a single person who
was on that ship come forward to say that _nothing happened_?
Why has that person, or those persons (there would have been a
whole lot of potential negative witnesses if John's scenario
bore any faint acquaintance with reality; most likely, we'd have
heard from more than just one), not come forward or been found
by

(a) government investigators
(b) rival newspapers
(c) ufologists
(d) debunkers
(e) or anybody else seeking to disprove one of the most
spectacular, and repeatedly publicized, UFO cases in the history
of the phenomenon? Why have all skeptical analyses of the case
so far been based only on guesswork and innuendo?

Why, in fact, was this issue not resolved very quickly, in the
immediate wake of the immense publicity in official,
journalistic, ufological, and other media? Of the many dozens of
sailors and others on the ship, _not one_ exposed what, if John
were right, would have been an obvious and transparent hoax.
With one little pin the whole balloon would have popped.
Instead, in all these years there haven't even been _rumors_ -
 much less straightforward statements - of such negative
testimony.

Could it be that there's a simple reason - that such persons
don't exist? Or that they have the same epistemological status
as the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? Or that John, being a good
pelicanist, doesn't think his own hypotheses have to answer to
falsifiability, and that he can spin and speculate endlessly out
of both whole cloth and any pickle whatever?

Meanwhile, hilariously, John complains that there aren't
_enough_ named positive witnesses, while simultaneously laboring
to make us forget that he cannot name _one_ negative witness.
It's like a baseball game in which the losing team, which has
yet to score a run, insists that it is, in fact, winning because
the other side has failed to score as many runs as the losers
unilaterally decree it must.

Where else would one encounter arguments as loopy as this,
except in the high, thin atmosphere to which only pelicans can
ascend?

Does John's argument make any sense whatever to you? I didn't
think so.

It's not just that you're insulting our intelligence, which you
certainly are. More to the point (to borrow a Rimmerism), you're
demeaning your own.

Come on, John. Give it a rest.


Jerry Clark










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                        Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:22:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:03:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:52:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Mind Control?

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:17:35 +0100
>>Subject: Mind Control?

>Originally, I was going to reply to Joe off-list. However,
>thinking more about it, I realize that the mind control arena
>holds information that is at least tangent to the field of
>UFOlogy. Before I answer Joe's questions below, let me explain
>some of the areas of potential common interest:

Thanks for the reply, which I appreciate has taken some
considerable effort on your part, and does attempt to answer all
of the questions which I put. One question which I omitted, but
which you have provided an answer for in any case (thankyou!)
was the question of a link between mind control and ufology.

>1. UFO abductees are _clearly_ mind controlled! So anyone who is
>more or less accepting of the abduction experiences as actually
>happening should have no doubts that mind control (and _body_
>control,) by way of _technology_, is a fait accompli.

This raises several more questions. Many people, including myself
and also a number of abduction experiencers are not convinced of
the reality (in physical terms) of the experience. There are
several ways of looking at this in relation to mind control, but
it boils down to three generic options:

a) The abduction experience is real, and mind control is real.
b) The abduction experience is not real, but is induced by a form
of mind control.
c) Neither mind control or the abduction experience are real.

Each of the options above produce another set of specific
questions, most of which cannot be satisfactorily answered
currently (therefore none of the above can be shown to be
correct or incorrect).

>2. Antigravity is involuntarily imposed on a small number (maybe
>a dozen I know about) of mind control targets, myself included.
>Some have been levitated into mid air, others held against a
>wall and unable to get down. Not poltergeists, because of the
>extremely wide spectrum of other forms of harassment, too
>extensive to discuss here.

This again raises many more questions. The only one that I would
like to raise on-list is why you exclude poltergeist activity
(and presumably any explanation that does not involve mind
control)? The reason that you give above is "because of the
extremely wide spectrum of other forms of harassment, too
extensive to discuss here" yet you also say that the phenomenon
only applies to a small number of targets. The link appears to
me to be very tenuous, I don't see how there can be any element
of certainty.

>3. Interdimensional stunts are part of our experience. Rarely
>but definitely, possessions are made to disappear "right under
>the noses" of mind control targets. Feeling carefully and
>looking on uncluttered clean floors finds nothing. Then, in some
>cases, these objects are made to drop out of thin air into the
>laps of the targetted person, even in a _moving_ vehicle.

This phenomenon sounds identical to many reported poltergeist
cases. Again, I would question how you establish a direct link
between such phenomena and mind control?

>Another annoying one is the injection of air inside the upper
>lips, which occurs when the target is awake but trying to get to
>sleep, creating loud flatulence-like sounds. I assure the reader
>that this is _not_ air coming up from the lungs. Yet the lips
>are firmly closed, so to my mind, it's popping into 'my'
>dimension from another one.

This sounds bizarre, but there could be physiological
explanations. I think most people experience this occasionally,
particularly when their mouth is moist and they suddenly smile
or grimace. Could this not be a case of looking for something to
associate with mind control, and consequently reaching spurious
conclusions?

>4. Incredibly precise manipulation of body parts, without the
>use of the muscles, something which seems to occur in some
>abductions. I must sleep with a neck brace stuffed with foam
>rubber, otherwise, my controllers will force my jaw side to side
>or up and down like a wind-up "yakking" pair of teeth. Forced
>speech is attempted, though I haven't heard forced speech yet
>which is as clear as normal speech. The perpetrators are
>definitely working on it, though.

My ex-wife used to do this for periods during her sleep. She was
totally unaware of it, suffered no ill effects, and has no
sensation of being controlled, or abduction flashbacks etc. I
suspect that this is another possible spurious association.

>5. I've had John Velez' three symbols commonly seen by abductees
>posted on my web site's survey form for almost a year. These can
>be seen at the top left of the Abduction Information Center at:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html

>I did this initially out of simple curiosity. As it is turning
>out, about one person in ten who writes in and reports they have
>several or all of the symptoms of current-day mind control,
>_also_ has seen those symbols. In most cases, they cannot
>remember where.

I looked for the page with the symbols, but couldn't find it? It
would be interesting to substitute those symbols with symbols
unconnected with the abduction phenomenon and compare the
results over an extended period of time. I would not be
surprised to find that people reported seeing the unconnected
symbols during abduction experiences just as frequently. I think
it would be worth at least putting up a selection of 10 or so,
and asking people to select only three that they see during
experiences, and compare the results.

>These are some of the effects we experience which seem to have
>something in common with the abudctees, and are why I'm
>answering Joe's questions to the list, rather than privately.

>>I have seen many websites and posts alleging that at least the
>>US Government is involved in an active mind control programme.
>>None of them seem to present a rational analysis of the topic.
>>Here is a sample of the sort of questions that I would like to
>>know the answers to:

>>1. If an individual is being controlled, is it 24x7 or only for
>>specific periods?

<snip>

>- Current day "psycho-electronic" mind control. The name "mind
>control" isn't really comprehensive enough, but it is the most
>popular name. This is a 24/7 "total immersion", in-home and in-
>community version of mind/body attacks using UFO-level
>technology, and unrelenting non-electronic harassment too. Some
>of the people harassing us are told lies, and believe they are
>"doing good work for the community" by "harassing us to
>straighten us out so we can come to the Lord". Of course, we
>have committed no crimes, while these self-appointed vigilantes
>commit them regularly.

Firstly, I condemn the harrassment that you mention. I hope that
you don't take my posts as an example of that, I think there is
a difference between harrassment and challenging someone's
views. What I question above is the reference to "UFO-level
technology". How do you make this connection?

<snip>

(While I sympathise with the terrible situation of Terri Schiavo
and her family, I don't really think it is directly relevant to
the question in hand)

>That corruption reigns supreme is no longer in doubt. This
>_also_ has serious implications for UFOlogy too!

No legal system is perfect, and I suspect that the US legal
system is more open to political interference than the UK
system, but there must be _some_ conscientious and humanitarian
people in the US legal profession. If there was endemic abuse of
the system as you seem to imply, surely some insiders would have
blown whistles by now?

>Current-day psycho-electronic mind control is my area of
>expertise. We are not experts in the technology, but we are
>experts in what is happening to us.

This is slightly worrying to me.I appreciate that it is probably
difficult to get professionals (technological and medical) to
take an interest in the topic, but it is a little like getting
medical patients to issue diagnoses to each other based on their
own symptoms and with little or no professional training. I hope
that you understand my point?

>Current day mind control continues until death in most cases,
>once the victim is "enrolled" in this program.

>>2. Why are some people affected and not others?

>My survey form received 12,000 hits in 24 hours in April 2002,
>as a result of the survey form link being posted on a "strange
>news" web site. One percent, about 120, responded and said they
>had several or all of the symptoms. That may mean as many as one
>percent, or about three million North Americans are targetted.
>This in turn means the vast majority of North Americans are not
>currently targetted.

...or don't know that they are?

>There are a few common threads - people who "tick off" someone
>with a lot of money and influence tend to be enrolled in this
>mess.

Again, I think there is a strong possibility of erroneous
association. If someone gets a parking ticket every time they
park illegally, this doesn't mean that there is a campaign of
mind control directed at them, it's probably just bad luck. The
mind control platform gives people an opportunity to express
their dislike of authority, etc. and draws attention to their
(possibly unrelated) issues.

>The fact that two people who are physically close, even in an
>embrace, can experience entirely different effects, or one gets
>effects and the other gets none, demonstrates the incredible
>precision which the advanced signals are capable of. That,

...or the internal nature of the phenomenon.....

>together with the fact that even good electromagnetic shielding
>does _nothing_ to stop or even slow down the mind/body attack
>signals, tells me that the level of physics being wielded by the
>perpetrators is on a par with ESP.

... or some would say black magic, ie a curse?

>We see no evidence of unwieldy equipment being aimed at us, and
>the signals follow us even while hiking well away from
>civilization.  ESP is self-aiming, totally selective, and has no
>known range limit, and fits all of are effects very well. That
>is why, in my view, only some people are affected.

Again, this also suggests an internal rather than external cause
to me.

>>3. How do people know that they are victims of MC as opposed to
>>say some form of Schitzophrenia/Paranoia?

>Some of us have been examined by psychiatrists, as I have more
>than once. The result is "You show no signs of mental illness,
>however I [the doctor] cannot say what sort of targetting you
> may be receiving."

It's a funny thing, doctors can certify someone as insane, but
they can't certify someone as sane! (only fit to stand trial,
fly an aircraft, or hold the keys to the Nuclear storage area).
I think that the phenomenon (as opposed to individuals) could
benefit from detailed psychiatric/psychological investigation,
if only to eliminate these potential causes.

>But more compelling than that is the large amount of _small_,
>that is, _very_ carefully engineered sabotage, designed so as to
>prevent the official intervention of police. At work overnight,
>my work (any I left out rather than bringing home) was routinely

I suppose it depends on State privacy laws, but is it not
possible to arrange surveillance (covert or overt) in your
workspace with the support and agreement of management? Your
employers obviously have a vested interest in preventing people
from tampering with your work.

>sabotaged. My apartment is entered at least weekly, and my

Again, surveillance should identify the origin of this activity
and is becoming cheaper every day. Standard indoor survellance
cameras start at around $45, for $100 you can get them hidden in
smoke alarms, electrical fittings, book/video/dvd covers etc.
VCR's can be set up to record 8 hours using E240 tapes on LP
while you are out. If this is occuring as regularly as you
describe, you should eventually capture some evidence on video.
The alternative is to fit a good alarm system for about $300-
well worth peace of mind.

>clothing gets slow rips which are made bigger even if I don't
>wear the item (often in the crotches and armpits), my hard copy

There are a number of mundane potential causes for this,
particularly in areas that fit near joints.

>archives are stolen from, my computer is constantly sabotaged,

Again, physical and software security should be able to prevent
this or identify the perpetrators.

>new furniture gets snapped somehow soon after acquisition
>(including tensile breaks requiring thousands of pounds yet

Have you considered that you may just be very unlucky, and there
was a structural flaw?

>leaving no tool marks, or the back of a chair which was
>hacksawed off) and my consumable supplies are regularly dumped
>by small amounts, unless I mark and date every container. I live
>alone and this is not someone else in the apartment doing this.

Again, I suggest physical security. What you are starting to
describe is a physical campaign of harrassment, rather than any
form of ethereic mind control.

>This has been happening over eight different apartments in 23
>years and it is not just a case of one place where some sicko
>happened to have a key. In my current apartment I am the
>original occupant.

>>4. What is the mechanism used? I know of two proposed methods,
>>one using electromagnetic radiation, the other using social
>>cultivation. In either case, I refer back to Q.1 (if the attack
>>is 24x7), it needs to reach the victim in a wide variety of
>>locations and Q.2- how is either method made selective over large
>>distances?

>The only explanation that fits is that the same signal type
>which is responsible for ESP is also being used by perpetrator
>equipment.

... mmmm... why would they then use a hacksaw to attack your
chair?

>This is not as far-out as it sounds. Czech engineer Robert
>Pavlita, back in the 1960s, using information from ancient
>texts, found a way to transfer psychic abilities to inanimate
>objects which he called "psychotronic generators". So we have
>already had, on Earth, primitive "equipment" capable of
>performing ESP-level effects.

I am not familiar with Pavlita's work, but it doesn't seem to
have reached the marketplace since the 1960's. It sounds a bit
like some of the "Free energy" scams.

>Cold War Soviet scientists spent huge sums researching
>psychotronic generators for military purposes, but the results
>of that research have not been made public.

>See "Psychic Discoveries" by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder
>for details.

>http://www.raven1.net/psydisc.htm

>>5. Surely one aspect of the "control" would be to prevent the
>>victim from becoming aware of it?

>I can't explain the mind state of people so mentally ill as to
>torture other people. We have some _un_ verifiable writings sent
>to us anonymously by people claiming to be the perpetrators, if
>you would like to check those out:

>http://www.raven1.net/perpsurv.htm

These are less than worthless, more likely to add confusion and
disinformation rather than any insight into potential MC
operations. I especially like the one who was "cut off from
society" by the FBI, yet managed to fill in an internet form!

>If you look at the FBI COINTELPRO crimes, from the mid 1950s and
>supposedly into the 1970s, they made extensive use of highly
>visible "surveillance", that is, harassment. Sometimes, powerful
>organizations _want_ the target to _know_ they are being
>harassed. I can't explain their motives.

>http://www.raven1.net/warathom.htm

Fair comment, I can see how overt surveillance may serve some
purpose, but if someone is aware that an attempt is being made
to excercise control over them, they can then resist the
attempt. If they are successful, they become "out of control"
and therefore the purpose of the control is defeated and may be
terminally compromised.

>It is obvious that our roughly 2,000 members world wide, of
>people who have finally realized their "bad luck" is actually
>harassment, are being targetted by people who _want_ us to know.

Or are they 2,000 unlucky people trying to find an explanation
for their bad luck?

>>6. If the source is electromagnetic, what frequencies are used?
>>If that is known then it should be easy to detect and map out
>an area of operation, and trace the source.

>If we take _all_ the effects, and their unshieldability using
>conventional electromagnetic shielding, the signal can't be
>conventional electromagnetic.

I'm not so sure - VLF (very low frequency) is relatively immune
to conventional EM shielding, since objects (even geological
formations) can resonate and "repeat" the signal. VLF is also
known to cause physiological effects, and has been a subject of
experimentation as a "secret weapon". See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
1012039&dopt=Abstract

for instance. The main difficulty of VLF being the source of the
phenomenon is in specifically targetting  _individuals_ over
large distances.

>We do have some anomalous electromagnetic signals which are
>unusual but do not operate in sync with the mind/body effects. A
>drawing of a scope trace in my apartment is here:

>http://www.raven1.net/scoptrac.gif

It may be relevant that both 120 Hz and 180 Hz are harmonics of
the US domestic mains frequency (60 Hz). Also, I don't know if
you live close to an institution involved in laser or linear
acceleration research (whatever that is), but 120Hz appears to
have some significance in this field, see:

http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/lcls/technotes/LCLS-TN-02-7.pdf

60 and 120 Hz are also commonly used in video equipment,
including PC video cards.

>Interesting that using an AM radio, the loopstick antenna of
>which is fairly directional, as a direction finder, this signal
>seems to peak at a point in mid-air just above my pillow. This
>has been true of the last three places I've lived.

I would expect to find similar peaks at a uniform height and
uniform orientation throughout the locale, but it is difficult
to test because of the influence of any large masses (eg human
bodies or even furniture and building structure) in proximity to
the antenna. It is entirely possible that a focal point could be
naturally present in the location described, and even appear to
"follow" you if you move your bed, if the bedframe and your body
are a major influence.

>Using the fairly decent "Tri Field Meters",

>http://www.TriField.com

>(which, by the way, should make excellent "UFO detectors" for
>abductees,) and frequency counters, we have not found any
>signals which consistently are in sync with body effects.

>In the ghost investigation arena, ghost appearances are
>accompanied by electromagnetic activity which seems to be a kind
>of "by product" of the main event. I suspect the advanced mind
>control signals may cause similar "by product" EM signals but
>which are not the actual harassment-carrying signal.

>That's only scratching the surface, but it's my answer to your
>questions.

Thanks, your answers are appreciated, but as I expected they
raise even more questions. It is possible that some of the ill
effects described could be a result of strong VLF emissions
(possibly from innocent sources), and that is an avenue which
you may like to explore further, particularly the 120/180 Hz
signal.


Regards,

Joe











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   Oct > Oct 22

                        Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:01:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:56:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Kaeser


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:12:31 EDT
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

<snip>

>>The fact that the U.S. Government had found enough value in this
>>to spend milliions of dollars over a 10 year period indicates to
>>me that this is a subject area worth pursuing.

>As you well know the Government has squandered billions on
>various projects of questionable value. The fact that the Gov
>spent approx 17 million dollars on one project over the years is
>not very significant when you consider that the so called
>"yearly" black budget/intel community budget is thought to be in
>the 30-40 billion dollar range.

><snip>

>>Unfortunately, there are a handful of people who have promoted
>>themselves as experts and helped to damage this line of
>>research's credibility.

>So true!!!!

>The fact remains that so called remote viewing is about as
>accurate as interpreting Nostradamaus's quantrains. Perhaps
>right, perhaps wrong and nobody knows until after the event
>passes and everybody is looking back with hindsite.


The Government has certainly spent Billions of dollars on
projects that led no where, and the amount speant on remote
viewing was only a tiny percentage of the defense budget.
However, justifications still have to made for such funding and
there has to be some indication of success before the "green
light" is usually given, so I think it's still significant that
any Government funds were spent on it at all.

I also thinks it's comparing apples to organges when you compare
remote viewing to the interpretation of Nostradamaus's
quantrains. I would compare it more to the accuracy of
recollections obtained through hypnotic regression. Both have
some validity, but can only be trusted up to a point with many
other factors that could come into play.

I've seen (a few) experiments in remote viewing that have been
very impressive as far as accuracy is concerned, and it would
seem that this far exceeds the laws of chance. While the
government complained that it was only accurate about 30 40
percent of the time, I think that far exceeds the accuracy one
would expect from random responses.


Steve








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   Oct > Oct 22

              Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:28:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:14:21 -0400
Subject: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident


This cross-post was sent to me and I am posting it for
responses. It is amazing that Cecil Adams is so convinced by the
Mogul hypothesis.

Cecil Adams and Paul Davids debate the Roswell Incident

Subject: Letter from Roswell Producer
Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:20:41 GMT
From: videodog@cybergate.com (Joe Thor)
Organization: Cybergate Information Services
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors, alt.conspiracy
Producer of Roswell UFO movie responds to Cecil
From sjf36@aol.com (SJF 36)
Organization America Online, Inc.
(1-800-827-6364)
Date 3 Jul 1996 09:16:07 -0400 Newsgroups
alt.fan.cecil-adams Message-ID <4rdrqn$5a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

(NOTE: This is a cross-post from "Cecil's Junk Drawer" in The
Straight Dope site on America Online. -D)

[The Straight Dope column to which Paul Davids refers below can
be found in the "Recent Columns" section.] Dear Mr. Adams:
Regarding your column on the Roswell UFO Incident, May 31, 1996,
I was Executive Producer and Co-writer of the movie mentioned in
the letter to you, called "Roswell" starring Kyle MacLachlan and
Martin Sheen. I have also produced a commercial video ("Reply to
the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident") which contradicts
everything you wrote, most of which you collected from Phil
Klass, a now well-past-the-age-of-retirement debunker who has
never even passed muster as a dispassionate skeptic and who is
reviled by everyone I know as a disingenuous and intellectually
dishonest writer on UFO's who's followed a slash-and-burn agenda
on every UFO case for decades, while enjoying a cozy
relationship with the defense establishment during his career as
an editor for an aviation magazine. He should have stuck to his
promise in OMNI magazine to retire from writing about UFO's five
years ago and saved me the hour or so it's taken me to draft
this letter.

Your Straight Dope on the Roswell Incident is uninformed
malarky, as far as I'm concerned, after nearly ten years of
examining this case and after passionately fighting through four
years of rejections to finally get the movie "Roswell" made. I
fought for one reason -- which had nothing to do with
entrepreneurship or fostering a cottage industry. I wanted the
truth to get out there, and it has, and here are the known facts
which your readers -- and you -- deserve to read: The Government
Accounting Office (the GAO) recently reported that the military
documents that could have explained the Roswell Incident
(outgoing messages from the commanding officer and others at the
Roswell Army Air Field 1947) were destroyed without proper
authorization decades ago. The Air Force never fessed up to that
in their 1994 report. Instead, they wrote a 22 page report with
about 1,000 pages of virtually worthless "supporting materials"
that have no provable connection to the Roswell Incident
whatsoever.

I long ago concluded that the Mogul balloon report is a weak
effort to "spin" the issue and contradicts or ignores witness
testimony -- and much of that testimony I personally delivered
on tape to the GAO, which found no support for the Air Force's
and Charles Moore's claim that the incident can be explained by
a Project Mogul balloon train. In fact, Charles Moore's attempt
to explain the "strange writing" on the Roswell debris as being
flower designs on tape that held together a flimsy balsa wood
radar reflector is disputed by the only living witness who has
testified about the writing he saw on the debris: Dr. Jesse
Marcel, Jr. He categorically states that the symbols he saw on
the debris were embossed on metal, they were not designs on
tape. He is a flight surgeon and practicing physician, and has
investigated crashes for the military. His father was Jesse
Marcel (upon whom we based the main character in our movie,
played by Kyle MacLachlan), a Roswell Intelligence Officer who
described the Roswell Debris in about 1978, on videotape, as
having been "not made on this earth." The dates of the Mogul
launches and the written records of the then-secret program do
not indicate any launch with instrument packages that coincides
in time with the Roswell Incident.

The soldiers at Roswell were among the best trained and most
trusted in the country -- don't forget, it was the only base at
that time that had responsibility for the atomic bomb and also
had the planes to deploy the bomb. These men, many of whom later
claimed in "video depositions" that what crashed was "not made
on earth" did not make an error such as mistaking five pounds of
conventional debris (balsa wood, conventional foil, etc.) for
something extraordinary, and to claim they did is ludicrous.
There's reliable testimony that it was the Base Commander (Col.
Blanchard) who ordered release of the original announcement that
a flying saucer had been captured -- it was not initiated by low
ranking soldiers. Three generals have publicly gone on record
(and are on tape -- see my "Reply to the Air Force Report") as
supporting key aspects of the fact that there was a major
coverup, and that includes (1) Senator (and General) Barry
Goldwater, former head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who
has written letters stating and has stated on TV that he takes
the "crashed spaceship" explanation very seriously, (2) Brig.
General Arthur Exon, former Base Commander of Wright Patterson
Air Force Base (where the debris and alien bodies were
reportedly taken), who confirms on tape it was an
extraterrestrial crash with bodies and that "the coverup won't
end until all those originally involved with the coverup are
deceased," and (3) Brig. General Thomas DuBose, who said the
"revised explanation" in 1947 that it was a weather balloon was
a cover story concocted on orders that came down from those
reporting directly to the Commander in Chief, President Truman,
and that false debris that had nothing to do with the Roswell
Incident was shown to reporters in Gen. Ramey's office and
passed off on the public as the Roswell debris.

At the time I executive produced the film, I felt the weight of
the testimony, which I reviewed, from dozens of military men and
townspeople, made the extraterrestrial explanation credible, and
not one alternative explanation has fit the facts as reported by
people involved whom I came to know, or their families, or their
testimony which I had to hear on tape because they were deceased
when I became involved. After making the movie, I knew enough
about the case to be able to dismiss the Mogul Balloon
explanation offered in 1994 by the Air Force as another ruse to
obscure the issue, though the New York Times and Associated
Press accepted it without investigation or inquiry, to the
considerable disservice of the public. Last July, I was invited
to make that point as the keynote banquet speaker at the White
Sands Missile Range Pioneers 50th anniversary celebration,
attended by about 200 members of all branches of service,
including reps from the Department of Defense and major defense
research labs. Within the last several months, I have been
personally informed by Astronaut Gordon Cooper, in a face to
face meeting, that Roswell did involve the recovery of a crashed
extraterrestrial spaceship, that our movie (which he saw) was
largely accurate, that there has been a half century of official
denial and official lies about it continuing to this day, and
that he has a very close friend who saw the alien bodies. Gordon
Cooper was one of the original Mercury Seven Astronauts. He
filmed a flying saucer that even landed at close range while in
the service and said the filmed evidence of the inexplicable and
technologically advanced craft was "buried" by the Pentagon and
ignored by Project Blue Book, which said it could find no
credible evidence for the existence of flying saucers. Astronaut
Edgar Mitchell, who walked on the moon, believes the weight of
the evidence is that Roswell was an extraterrestrial event and
he publicly suggested, recently, that those who knowingly
withheld the facts from astronauts who went to the moon are
"criminally liable" for essentially using astronauts as guinea
pigs while not telling them the truth about what is known about
alien life forms visiting earth. Recently, I received
correspondence from President Clinton, thanking me for sending
him video testimony which confirms the coverup and which
thoroughly undermines the Mogul Balloon disinformation that was
served up to him by the Air Force. His personal letter,
expressing gratitude for my materials that demolished the Air
Force report, was overnighted to me coinciding with a much-
publicized press conference in Washington D.C. by science writer
and former NASA consultant Richard Hoagland, presenting evidence
that NASA has buried or ignored mysterious lunar and Martian
anomalies that strongly appear to suggest artificial structures.

The President's letter to me (which followed mine to him by
about three months) also preceded by one or two days an
announcement by NASA that finding evidence of ET life will be
its highest priority for the future, including the search for
evidence of such life (even from the distant past) in our own
solar system on Mars and the moon. I have no information to
support the "alien autopsy" film broadcast by FOX and have been
very skeptical of it from the outset, when it suddenly "came to
light" in the months after our film was broadcast. (By the way,
"Roswell" was nominated for a Golden Globe for Best TV Movie of
1994 by the Hollywood Foreign Press.) I do not endorse the FOX
autopsy film, though I note that there has been no conclusive
"smoking gun" one way or the other yet, and most statements are
"going on instinct" or on personal impressions rather than
personal experience, personal knowledge or proof. Nevetheless,
the special effects people I have worked with dismiss it, and it
does seem to obscure the issue and the facts of the Roswell
case. The fact that someone unknown released less than
convincing film of a purported alien autopsy in no way
diminishes or detracts from the evidence and testimony that
there was the crash of an ET craft at Roswell. In fact, there is
every reason to believe that real exhibits, in the form of
artifacts, debris, specimens, photos and motion picture film
does exist and is still being witheld.

Former Command Sergeant Major Bob Dean, formerly of SHAPE
(Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) states that as part
of his job in the military in Europe he was shown a classified
document, "The Assessment," that revealed that the military has
evidence and exhibits of numerous extraterrestrial craft
conducting a surveillance of the earth, and that this certain
knowledge has demoralized those of high rank who are in the
know. Recently, billionaire Laurence Rockefeller released 1000
copies of a report he sponsored to various heads of State and
key Senators and Congressmen, as well as key people in the
Clinton Administration. The report on UFO's presented in a sober
and somber way many cases which offer overwhelming support of
the thesis that flying saucers are real and that there may be no
alternative to confirming the extraterrestrial hypothesis in the
near future. Interestingly, the report avoided the debate on the
Roswell Incident and presented powerful evidence on the UFO
issue, dated up to the very recent past, without it.

Mr. Adams, may I suggest you change the name of your column to
"The Dope," unless you're prepared to show some hubris and admit
in print that you leaped before you looked. Your "Straight Dope"
on the Roswell Incident is fiction, and not even consistent or
well thought out fiction. If you want the version closest to the
truth, as Gordon Cooper and so many others have confirmed,
advise your readers to rent the movie "Roswell" at any local
video store. The Alexandria II Bookstore in Pasadena has my
"Reply to the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident" for
rent. Sincerely, Paul Davids Executive Producer / Co-Writer of
"Roswell"

Cecil Adams replies: I think the word you're looking for in your
last paragraph is "humility," not "hubris." But let's not
nitpick. I have attempted to address some of the contentions in
your letter below.

1. PHIL KLASS IS INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST, REVILED, ETC.
Nonsense. I spoke with two prominent UFO researchers, Karl
Pflock and Kevin Randle. Both have written books about Roswell
and believed there was some basis to the stories about crashed
spaceships. Pflock no longer believes these stories but Randle
still does and in fact he was a technical consultant for your
movie. Although both men had fundamental disagreements with Phil
Klass, they spoke well of him and said he was a person of
integrity. Both said they found you rather credulous.

2. THE MILITARY DESTROYED KEY DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE CASE
WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION. Three years' worth of outgoing messages
from Roswell were destroyed during housecleaning, apparently
when the military records center was moved from Kansas City to
St. Louis. The destruction of records was handled somewhat
casually but government archivists doubt this can be attributed
to a conspiracy. In any case indications are that the Roswell
affair was handled largely by telephone. There is no question
that the military was genuinely concerned about UFOs during the
late 1940s and early 1950s. Secret documents declassified in the
mid-1980s reveal anxious discussions on the subject among high-
level officials. However, none of these documents indicate that
the government had any physical evidence of crashed saucers or
the like. On the contrary, a number of documents lament the lack
of such evidence.

3. JESSE MARCEL, JR., SAYS THE STRANGE SYMBOLS HE SAW ON THE
DEBRIS WERE EMBOSSED ON THE METAL, NOT PRINTED ON TAPE. Jesse
Marcel, Jr., was a child at the time of the incident. Nearly 50
years have passed. Marcel's statements regarding the debris have
made him a celebrity on the UFO circuit. 'Nuff said.

4. THE DATES OF THE SECRET PROJECT MOGUL BALLOON LAUNCHES DO NOT
COINCIDE WITH THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Baloney. A 600-foot-long
string of two dozen weather balloons and several kitelike radar
reflectors was launched from Alamogordo, N.M., on June 4, 1947.
Contact with the balloons was lost when they were less than 20
miles from the Brazel ranch. Mac Brazel found the mysterious
debris June 14. Contemporary descriptions of the debris suggest
its appearance was similar to that of a wrecked balloon train.

5. BARRY GOLDWATER TAKES THE "CRASHED SPACESHIP" EXPLANATION
VERY SERIOUSLY. So? Sen. Goldwater has no personal knowledge of
Roswell. Neither do any of the other famous names you cite.

6. GEN. EXON SAYS IT WAS AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRASH WITH BODIES.
Gen. Exon's statements were based on hearsay. He did not become
commander at Wright Patterson until many years after the Roswell
incident. He never saw any debris.

7. GEN. DUBOSE SAYS THE "WEATHER BALLOON" STORY WAS CONCOCTED ON
ORDERS FROM ABOVE. Of course. The weather balloon story was
intended to conceal the Project Mogul experiment, a secret
Pentagon project to develop a way to detect anticipated Russian
atom bomb tests.

8. FORMER SGT. BOB DEAN SAYS HE SAW A SECRET MEMO SAYING THE
MILITARY HAS EVIDENCE OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL SPACECRAFT. Neither
Pflock nor Randle found Dean's statements believable. Although I
don't suppose there's much chance of persuading you, Paul,
others may be interested in Karl Pflock's story. He describes
himself as skeptical about Roswell but says "there's still a
chunk of [UFO] data that can't be explained by known science."
Pflock initially was inclined to believe the Roswell UFO stories
and spent nearly four years researching them. However, "when I
got into it, a whole lot of what had been claimed turned out not
to have been true at all," he says. Pflock says he now doesn't
think Roswell had anything to do with aliens. "The congruence
between the Project Mogul equipment and what we know about the
[Roswell] debris is just too great to be dismissed." He plans to
discuss the matter in a book to be published on the 50th
anniversary of the incident entitled, "The Roswell UFO Mystery:
Legend and Reality." Everybody says you know how to make an
entertaining movie, though.

--








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   Oct > Oct 22

                   Durham Residents & Officers Report UFO

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:50:47 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:13:47 -0400
Subject: Durham Residents & Officers Report UFO


Source: NBC 17.com, NC

http://www.nbc17.com/news/2569877/detail.html

Object Had Green-Colored Tail

Posted: 12:46 PM EDT October 21, 2003

DURHAM, N.C. -- Six people in Durham, including two police
officers, reported seeing a green-colored object flying through
the sky Monday night.

Durham police Lt. Morris Taylor told The Herald-Sun the object
appeared to be a shooting star but it was unlike any he had ever
seen. "It was pretty wild looking," Taylor told the newspaper.
"It looked comparable to the size of the moon in the sky."

Police dispatchers say around 8:45 p.m. Monday they began
receiving calls about an unidentified flying object. Durham
County Sheriff's Deputy Brad O'Briant told The Herald-Sun he was
on U.S. 70 when he saw the object over Interstate 40. O'Briant
said its tail had a distinctive greenish-white hue and was
moving very quickly across the sky. Several pilots at Raleigh-
Durham International Airport also reported seeing the object,
though air traffic controllers caught no sight of it. Durham
dispatchers said they received reports of sightings around South
Miami Boulevard and Page Road, Duke Forest, and as far north as
the Little River area.







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   Oct > Oct 22

               Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:02:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:58:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice? -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:23:12 -0700
>>Subject: Flying-Triangles Subject To A 'D' Notice?

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 14-18

>>"FLYING TRIANGLES" - WHY THEY MAY INDEED BE SUBJECT TO A "D"
>>NOTICE.

>What's a "D" Notice. Is that particular to UK broadcasters where
>an an advisory is issued by the Defence Department[s] re
>sensitive military assets?

Don and List,

Here's a link to an article on the official DA-Notice site:

http://www.dnotice.org.uk/articles.htm#01Oct02

Note the statement "In this regard, let me state categorically
that there is no DA-Notice on stories about UFOs!"

I can confirm that this is true. I'm not sure where or when such
rumours began.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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   Oct > Oct 23

                                UFOs & NORAD

From: Bob Huff <bob@arioch.us>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:53:47 -0400
Subject: UFOs & NORAD


Hi,

Met with a former AF CAPT who served at Cheyenne mountain in the
1980's.

One of his duties involved working with a special section that
exploited NORAD's sensors in unexpected ways - for example, DSP
satellites tracking movement of aircraft as opposed to solely
detecting missile launch.

He said they detected a number of unidentified craft that moved
at astounding speeds. He recalled one radar 'painted' target
that moved 500 miles virtually instantaneously.

While in the group, he also heard mentioned of MJ-12 but had no
specific information on the group.

Interestingly, all targets were labeled with some explanation.
Reporting UFOs was not allowed.



Very Best,

Bob Huff








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   Oct > Oct 23

                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:33:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:02:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:08:22 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:45:43 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:15:19 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>I don't want 150 witnesses, Jerry; I don't even want 48. Just
>>>one independent, first person account would be enough. It is all
>>>too clear however, that you are incapable of producing one.
>>>I think, as someone once said, this says far more about your
>>>argument than it does about mine.

>>Mr. Rimmer;

>>It seems pretty obvious to me, sir, that you don't really want
>>even that "one" and would artfully dodge him too, were he
>>provided to you. Your argument remains the more self-revealing.

>You make a very good point. Would just one witness, turning up
>after fifty years, be enough to convince me of the
>extraordinariness of the Trindade event? I think if this person
>just turned up out of the woodwork now, recalling events from
>half a century ago, I would have to say, no.

>What I would find harder to refute, and what I am expecting from
>the mysterious source which Jerry Clark assures us is "going to
>blow [me] out of the water", is a contemporary report, either in
>a newspaper at the time, or in some government archive, of a
>fourth person, on the deck of the Almirante Saldhana, who saw
>the UFO and perhaps saw the photographs being taken.

>Whether or not I would "artfully dodge" around such a witness
>depends on the strength of the evidence presented, but the
>closer such an account is to the time of the event, and the
>further the new witness is from Barauna's circle, the more
>difficult it would be for me to do so.

>But Jerry assures us that the evidence is there, and will
>shortly be revealed, so all we have to do now is sit back and
>wait, and prepare for my explosive ejection from the briny.

>I may of course, from time to time, need to issue a little
>reminder, just in case Jerry and his source forget about it!


Oh please, Mr. Rimmer, this is so much intellectualized tally-
whacking. Trindade is one of the most vetted and rigorously
parsed reports ever made. Your less than academic and plainly
obdurate refutation serves only to make you appear petty,
uninformed, and not remotely convincing.

As regards Mr. Clark... he's not been given to bald hyperbole in
the past (he's been a tested instrument of remarkable
calibration to this point) so where is the validation to thinly
suggest that he is now.  Moreover, _blown_ out of the water,
would you even admit it, or just set your CSICOPian sights on
another target.....

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

                      Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:43:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:05:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: UMMO-Like Cylinder

>A couple months ago I received an email by a person calling
>himself Pavel, who claimed to have found a strange object buried
>in the woods near his home in Perm, Russia. According to Pavel,
>the object had been ejected from a UFO. During my subsequent
>correspondence with him, Pavel rejected my suggestion to take
>the mystery object to a properly equipped lab for analysis and,
>inexplicably, decided to send the artifact to me via
>international post. I agreed, wondering what exactly I was
>getting into. Pavel had described the object's anomalous
>physical characteristics: the Braille-like figure had supposedly
>changed by itself and the cylinder's metallic surface would grow
>hot after being touched with no evident mechanical cause. These
>and other properties apparently worried him that the object's
>original owners would return for it, possibly endangering his
>family.

>I shortly received an email from Pavel claiming that overseas
>shipping was more expensive than he had expected and requesting
>me to send money to assist in the artifact's delivery. I
>declined and email from "Pavel" immediately ceased. From the
>beginning, I had realized that the possibility of my being
>hoaxed was very real, and Pavel's request for funds seemed to
>cinch the matter. But I had become interested in the cylinder's
>basic resemblance to similar objects associated with the
>infamous UMMO hoax (see Jacques Vallee's "Revelations: Alien
>Contact and Human Deception"). Even the "Z"-shaped glyph on the
>object's underside bore a vague resemblance to UMMO's trademark
>stylized "H." Was Pavel operating (perhaps unknowingly) as an
>agent for a Russian offshoot of the ostensibly defunct UMMO
>cult?

>To see Pavel's drawing of the cylinder, see:

>http://www.mactonnies.com/saucers.html

>Has anyone on the List received similar correspondence?


I got one, answered his initial E-mail (giving him the addresses
of a few persons higher on the ufological food chain), and then
lateraled the affair to UFO UpDates, ignoring subsequent
E-mails.....

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

                          Filer's Files #43 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:49:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:41:37 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #43 -- 2003


Filer's Files #43 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer,  Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 22, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --
My website is at:  www.georgefiler.com/
Majorstar @ aol.com Sponsored by: OPC-3

UFO - NANOTECHNOLOGY AND BIOLOGICAL MACHINE THEORIES

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. Asteroid gets within 52,000 miles of earth.
Crack in the Earth, UFOs - Nanotechnology and biological machine
theories for George Ritter's videos, Massachusetts - five
hovering lights, Connecticut -- We saw two discs, New York -
 sphere heads north and up, New Jersey - sphere with 37 windows,
Maryland - seemed to be practicing formations, North Carolina -
 small orange oblong craft, South Carolina - video of UFO,
Florida - Arrowhead UFO, Ohio - strange passenger jets and new
dirigibles to be built, Indiana - saucer shaped craft with
kaleidoscope lights, Illinois - four lights rotating in a
circular motion, Michigan - light circles another, Wisconsin -
 Missouri - the teardrop object flew faster than any plane I've
ever seen, Arizona - huge gold saucer sighting, California --
 discs, orange oval dropping flares, Canada - flat silver UFO,
UK/England - two bright lights hovering 200 yards off the
ground. Sweden - two flying objects flying at incredible speed,
and Bahrain - strange bright yellow lights

MUFON's mission is the scientific study of UFOs for the
benefit of mankind, investigate sightings, promote research, and
educate the public on the UFO phenomenon.


ASTEROID GETS WITHIN 52,000 MILES OF EARTH

PHOENIX -- By Michelle Rushlo, Associated Press Writer - An
asteroid discovered by Arizona astronomers last month passed
within 52,000 miles of Earth - the closest documented approach
of an asteroid that didn't collide with the atmosphere. Close
encounters with 3 to 6 meter asteroids in diameter are not
unusual, but catching images and documenting orbits of those
asteroids are difficult. "The coup is to actually see one of
them ... so we had a bit of luck," said Edward Bowell, director
of Lowell Observatory's Near Earth Object Search program. Images
of SQ222, as it's been dubbed, were captured by Lowell
Observatory in Flagstaff and documented by Fountain Hills-based
nonprofit Minor Planet Research. Minor Planet Research was
testing a computer and image system designed to allow students
to look for asteroids and other space objects when a researcher
spotted an object moving about twice the speed of the moon that
passed less than a quarter of the distance to the moon, on
September 27th. Had it struck the Earth's atmosphere, it likely
would have simply burned up. Paul Johnson, executive director of
Minor Planet Research, said the discovery of SQ222 helps
illustrate the importance of the human element in searching for
asteroids and other space objects. Minor Planet Research's
asteroid discovery system adds the human eye to the equation.
The nonprofit hopes to have the system installed at the
CHALLENGER SPACE CENTER, an education center in Peoria, near the
beginning of the year, so that students will have a chance to
make their own discoveries. Thanks to Michelle Rushlo

UFOs - NANOTECHNOLOGY AND BIOLOGICAL MACHINE THEORIES

FOSTORIA -- George Ritter continues to take videos of UFOs on an
almost daily basis of ghostlike, almost supernatural objects.
His VHS RCA camera films UFOs flying above a farm silo beyond
his pond some 265 yards away. Some of his films show aircraft,
birds, and the UFOs. Often the UFO's reflection can be seen in
the water in the pond. The UFOs are of various shapes such as
cylinders, discs, and triangles. Many appear to be heading into
or out of a large farmer's field. They seem to be able pass
through the surface of the field or into the farm buildings.
Many do not seem to be fully formed or solid, and appear almost
ghost like reminding me of Halloween images of spirits,
phantoms, ghosts, and apparitions. It is possible we are
observing advanced technology, of an object that is not yet
reconstituted. Often UFO photos and videos show some kind of
light, or wavy kind of object. We have often thought the
propulsion system is causing some type magnetic or electrical
interference on the film. This interference in the video may be
caused by their high speed, the propulsion system, or the
construction methods of the UFOs. The first UFO I saw as a child
appeared like millions of swarming bees. My friend and saw the
swarm maneuver, land, and form a disked shaped craft. The
technology of the UFO we can speculate is fashioned with
advanced technology that often appears as magic to us.

Back in the 1960s, an IBM mainframe computer with much less
capacity than yours could fill up a good-size office. Today,
engineers are developing new machines at the microscopic level
using nanotechnology that can fit in the period at the end of
this sentence. A nanometer is equal to one-billionth of a meter,
or about the length of 10 hydrogen atoms lined up in a row.
Carbon nanotubes, one of the basic building blocks, can be
manufactured today. This nanotube is essentially a sheet of
carbon one atom thick, rolled into a tube and has the strength
of more than 20 times that of steel. They can act as conductors
or semiconductors. When a magnetic or electrical switch is
thrown they can magnetize and come together. They can have
gears, differentials, bearings, and even simple motors. These
machines are made of molecules. The molecules are so small that
chemical and biological molecules probably are more effective
than metallic molecules. It is likely that the flying machines
in George Ritter's back yard are an advanced technology using
biological molecules with an electromagnetic aspect similar to
electric eels. In a sense these UFOs are alive, they appear to
dematerialize as they fly through the air, only to reconstitute
when they land. The advantages of this technology is wonderful
in that they can overcome the problems of mass and weight. If
they are hit by a meteor or meteor dust they can absorb and
repair the wound or damage. Additionally, they have the ability
to dematerialize penetrate solid surfaces.

Video of two high speed UFOs over Ohio taken by George Ritter on
August 18, 2003. If you have seen anything like this please
contact me. Majorstar @ aol.com

The craft appear to be created from materials that can be
manufactured, then disassembled or dematerialized, and finally
reconstituted at will. Several contactees claim their UFOs
traveled through space as a diminutive object. In some way they
were miniaturized, divided into diminutive pieces for travel,
then when they got back to Earth they were enlarged and restored
to their original size. Many observers have seen relatively
small lights the size of a basketball fly to a position near
them, and suddenly enlarge into a giant space ship. These
descriptions indicate that the alien technology is building the
objects using nanotechnology at or near the molecular level.
We've watched the miniaturization trend intensify, as smaller
and smaller machines have become more powerful. But at some
point in the microscopic level -- machines stop being machines,
and become something more akin to molecules or cells. The flying
objects observed are most likely composed of mineral, chemical,
and biological molecules that can pass through a dirt field.
They combine the best features of life and machine.

George speculated, "The objects are there moving at very high
speeds. They have the ability to penetrate a dirt field about a
half-mile in circumference. They seem to be operating out of
phase or frequency with our reality." Let us assume this
observation is correct. They may not enter or leave the field in
a solid configuration. The Star Trek episodes often showed the
beaming up of members of the cast. As you read this article,
radio, television, telephone, and radar, signals are passing
through your home, the next advancement in technology is likely
to be the ability to beam a solid object that has been
dematerialized from one place to another. An advanced form of
craft may literally divide into cells or pieces, or
dematerialize prior to entering the field. They may pass through
the dirt of the field like we walk through water. At the
molecular level, what appear, as miracles are possible? If you
have seen the recent advancements in high definition television,
you can understand how the next advancements in broadcasting
molecules may not be so far away. The propulsion system and the
entire craft appear magnetic, if you cut up a magnet it
automatically returns to its orginal form. George Ritter is
definitely picking up evidence of the existence of extraordinary
machines. George and I both operate without financial support
for research, and your support would be appreciated. These UFOs
seem to coexist with us using advanced technology and George
Ritter is video taping the evidence of their existence. We need
to purchase or borrow more sophisticated equipment.
www.georgefiler.com/


CRACK IN THE EARTH

MOUNT VESUVIUS, ITALY - Mitch Battros (ECTV) warns that Mt.
Vesuvius poses imminent danger. The Italian government believes
Mt. Vesuvius to be such an imminent threat, that they are
offering hundreds of families $35,000 each to move outside the
eruption danger zone. Many geologists believe that it is only a
matter of time before another major eruption will devastate
populated areas around the volcano. A large eruption in 79AD
buried the towns of Pompeii and Herculaneum. Vesuvius is part of
a Super-Volcano named "Somma" that sits in a caldera formed
about 34,000 years ago. This is similar to North America's
Yellowstone Super-Volcano that is also acting up. An area of 31
square miles was uplifted, in places up to 5.9 feet damaging
homes. Vesuvius is a dangerous and deadly volcano that killed
3,500 people in 631. About 3,360 people died in the 79 A.D.
eruption.
http://www.earthchangestv.com/breaking/2003/october_2003/06vesuvius.htm

MAYON VOLCANO, PHILIPPINES STIRS - One thousand families may be
evacuated, according to the Provincial Disaster Management
Office of Legazpi City while nearby disaster councils in Albay
brace for an imminent eruption. On Saturday, the Philippine
Institute of Volcanology and Seismology (PHIVOLCS) confirmed a
general increasing trend of volcanic activity and has now raised
the Mayon assessment to Alert Level 2. Incandescence inside the
summit crater was confirmed as a persistent and significant
phenomenon. Sulfur Dioxide emission rates on October 9, rose to
2,386 tons per day. This alert condition signifies a volcano
instability that may eventually lead to ash explosions or to
magmatic eruption. The most recent eruption, in 1993, began
unexpectedly with an explosion that killed 77 people and
prompted the evacuation of 60,000 others.

Editor's Note: There is now a sunspot the size of Jupiter on
our sun and solar activity is high and may be related to the
build up of pressure at Yellowstone, Mt Rainier, Three Sisters,
Mayon, and Mt. Vesuvius. UFO activity is also generally high
near expected volcanic and earthquake activity

MASSACHUSETTS - FIVE HOVERING LIGHTS

NEW BEDFORD HARBOR -- While traveling at 8:40 PM on October 3,
2003, the witness noticed five white lights flying over Route 18
in an odd way. At first, they appeared to be airplanes, but
after watching more closely, there were no red lights. They
moved across the night sky towards transmission towers that were
flashing red warning lights. The five white lights hovered next
to the tower's red lights, making me think they were
helicopters searching for something. The witness states, "I
turned my vehicle around to follow the lights, and as I did, I
noticed that the hovering continued until I was probably a mile
away from the transmission lights, when suddenly all five lights
went out simultaneously." They did not land anywhere, when the
lights went out. The sighting lasted almost ten minutes. The
lights appeared in a well-lit area overlooking New Bedford
Harbor. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

CONNECTICUT --WE SAW TWO DISCS

WATERBURY - Two brothers and a friend were returning from a
fishing trip on the Farmington River on Route 8 and as they came
over a rise above a power station they spotted two saucer shaped
objects at 11 PM, on October 13, 2003. They were hovering above
the station, and one was closer to the observers than the other
by a 1/4 mile. The witnesses stated, "We had the radio on and
all of a sudden we saw the closest object veer off like a
shooting star and combine with the distant object and instantly
disappear." I was driving and checking the radio static and
trying to pull over we all saw this happening in about five
seconds. I was amazed to say the least and we got off the first
southbound exit and turned back on Northbound Route 8 to see if
we could see more. We pulled over for 20 minutes and scanned the
skyline to no avail. It was not from this world, as I know it. I
am going back their tonight after dark. Thanks to Peter
DavenportUFOcenter

 NEW YORK - UFO MOVES NORTH AND UP

BINGHAMTON - A father and son were getting into their car at a
downtown business at 11:30 PM, on October 14, 2003, when the son
asked, If a bright object was Mars? I said, no because this
light was moving towards the north. We watched the object about
70 degrees above the horizon fly in a straight line north. Then,
it made a curve towards the northeast at 45 degrees above the
horizon and faded out like it was going higher into the
atmosphere. This was not a satellite since it started at a dead
stop. It was not a plane, since it had no wing blinking lights,
and the object was too far up for that. The object was a pure
white and was a sphere that dimmed in intensity as it curved and
flew to higher altitudes until it was a tiny point, and kept
going until buildings obscured the view. This sight was only
three miles form Johnson City where another report was recently
made. Is the southern tier of NY becoming UFO central? Thanks to
Peter Davenport UFOcenter

MARYLAND - SEEMED TO BE PRACTICING FORMATIONS

BALTIMORE - Bill Bean reports that a witness saw maneuvering
lights in the early morning sky, twice in October. On October 7,
2003, he saw the lights in the sky early that morning. Thanks
for being there with some info on something most people don't
want to talk about. Thanks to Bill Bean

KENNEDYVILLE -- It started out as three equally spaced orange
lights in a diagonal formation at about 7:30 PM, on October 9,
2003. The three lights blinked out at the same time, then a
large ball of orange light appeared and two lights broke off
into a horizontal formation. They faded out again. This went on
for almost an hour. Sometimes the ball would break off into a
vertical formation while at other times they flew in a
horizontal or diagonal formation. It would only stay visible for
five seconds at a time. The last ten minutes were the most
active. They broke off into a formation of four that were all
perfectly spaced. Then when it reappeared it broke off into a
formation of five lights, and finally into a vertical formation
of six equally spaced lights. The main light never moved once it
appeared. Once each ball of light went to it's place in the
formation, the formation stayed still for five seconds and then
would fade out all at the same time. My wife went next door to
tell our neighbors. When the neighbors came out to see, the
craft(s) never revealed themselves again. The lights seemed to
be no more than 1,000 feet from the ground. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

OHIO -- STRANGE "PASSENGER JETS" AND NEW DIRIGIBLES

TRENTON - One night last week -- and again, on October 13, 2003,
the observer saw low flying "mystery planes" passing over his
town in an area surrounded by small, modest, municipal airports
since it is the birthplace of aviation. The nearest airport is
in Middletown, and services a private airline composed of
smaller DC-3 aircraft. The low flying planes are the size of a
large passenger jet liner such as a Boeing 727, with weird
characteristics:

#1 - No sound of a discernible jet engine, even though they were
low enough for engine noise to be heard.

#2 - They appeared to be flying so low as to be coming in on a
relatively close landing approach, yet the two airports nearest
me that are large enough to land a passenger jet of THAT size
are in Cincinnati and Dayton - which are quite a ways away from
Trenton. The airfields are too small to handle these large
planes.

#3 - The plane had it's wing tip lights TOO FAR BACK, as if it's
fuselage tapered into a "Delta" wing configuration similar to a
British Dehavilland Vampire fighter jet, or the Concord. I know
of no planes that fly around here with wings of that type.
Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

AKRON -- Not far away in Akron, the city where dirigible
airships were first built in 1924 and where lighter-than-air
ships were made during World War II could be the birthplace of a
new generation of super-sleuth blimps. The new generation of
blimps designed at the Lockheed Martin Airdock will not look
like Super Bowl blimps but will be 25 times larger and look like
dirigibles. They will fly at twelve miles above the Earth and
carry radar systems used to detect missile launches, ships at
sea or for telecommunications. The Missile Defense Agency agreed
to pay $40 million for the company to design the new airship and
prove the technology can work indicating prototypes may already
be flying. I suspect some UFO reports of exceptionally large,
low flying triangles may be a prototype already flying.

MICHIGAN - LIGHT CIRCLES ANOTHER

 FRASER - The witness pulled into the parking lot located ten
miles from Selfridge Air Base and noticed a family loading
groceries on October 17, 2003, at 4:17 PM. All five of them were
staring into the sky, they were at a stand still. I parked two
spaces over from them, and when I got out, they asked me what
that was in the sky. "Its been there for a few minutes, the
small light keeps moving around the big one." What I was looking
at was a large light shining in our direction that was about a
mile north of me, and about a half mile up. There was a smaller
light hanging out down and to the left of it. Moving a bit. Both
lights were very slowly moving towards us but very slowly. After
about a minute, they turned and flew away. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter


INDIANA - SAUCER SHAPED CRAFT WITH KALEIDOSCOPE LIGHTS

BLOOMINGTON -- A 53-year-old mother of four who considers
herself to be a sensible person and faith believing saw a disc
on a cold evening on October 10, 2003, at 10:30 PM. This object
was about 70 to 80 feet across with lights on the bottom. The
lights were moving from the outer edge toward the center of the
disc in rectangular shapes. The disc appeared to have louvers
toward the center. When the light reached the center it would
radiate back out toward the outer edge. It appeared as if you
were looking in a kaleidoscope. The lights were a brilliant
white. The lady watched for three minutes as it moved from the
northeast to a southwest direction. She went into the house to
get her husband, but when they came out, it was gone. Thanks to
Peter Davenport UFOcenter

 ILLINOIS - FOUR LIGHTS ROTATING IN A CIRCULAR MOTION

POPLAR GROVE - The witness was heading east on Route 173 on
September 30, 2003, when he reached Caledonia at 10:34 PM, he
witnessed two craft that appeared to be planes with their
landing lights. The lights were not coming in his direction, but
when he reached Poplar Grove, he realized he was closing in on
the craft, as they appeared larger and much brighter. Continuing
east the craft was fairly large and bright and appeared to be
hovering. I shut the headlights off and got out and saw two
planes flying, but suddenly the two other hovering objects shot
straight up to the sky, and within five seconds became distant
stars themselves. They were very faint lights but visible. The
distance traveled in time was incredible. It appeared that the
craft flew 200-250 miles upward in a matter of 5 seconds. These
craft that I saw did not have blue or red lights and did not
appear to be planes at all. As I said, there were two other
planes flying in the vicinity, which circled around and flew
southwest toward Rockford Airport direction. I would find it
hard to believe that the pilots did not witness this also.
Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

LA MOILLE - On October 4, 2003, a truck driver, his teacher wife
and a 12 years old son observed four lights rotating around the
outside of a craft in a circular motion at 9:30 PM. Then the
four white lights would go back to the center and then do it all
over again. There seemed to be very faint light beams coming
down from each one of the four lights. As we observed the lights
the whole formation moved a great distance over a 45-minute
period. We live with vast amounts of cornfields around us. My
wife used to be a skeptic, now she doesn't know what to say,
but that it was the most amazing thing she's ever seen. Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

MISSOURI - THE TEARDROP FLEW FASTER THAN ANY PLANE

KANSAS CITY -- I looked in the sky as I was driving down a semi-
lit street at 10:53 PM, on October 6, 2003, and saw a bright
light flash from one side of a flying object to the other. The
light bent on the object as if it were curved or raindrop shape,
and as if the object was spinning or turning. When the light got
from one side to the other, the backside of the object was
facing me and as it did, the object dimmed and shot at LEAST 20
miles across the sky and disappeared... It was a crystal clear
night, so it didn't disappear into any clouds.... I instantly
called my house to tell my fiance what I saw, as soon as I began
to say hello, the weirdest noise shot through my cell, she told
me she heard it on her phone too. I was only 1 mile from home.
The noise sounded like radio frequency, but was only a second
long. Conditions were clear, with no clouds. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

ARIZONA  - HUGE GOLD SAUCER SIGHTING

KINGMAN - The witness was outside October 5, 2003, about 9:14
PM, having a smoke, and talking to his best friend when they saw
a huge saucer floating over the neighbor's house. The witness
states, "I mean this thing was HUGE and had Gold flashing lights
and reminded me of gold and diamonds that were so bright and so
glamour like." It was kind of rotating back and forth in small
motions. I started to yell into the phone and told my friend to
get her outside. I looked back up, just in time to see the
saucer take off. I ran over to my Mom's house to tell her and
she said she was so jealous, because I always catch this kind of
stuff. We all went outside, and about two minutes later about 40
planes filled the sky. They all met over the Cerbat Mountains
and then separated. We have never seen more than five planes in
the sky on any given night. After the planes left a huge bolt of
green light flew out of the sky and landed in the little
mountains by my house. My Dad came running out and the sky was
filled with 40 planes again. Then another huge Gold glowing
light was hanging over by the Kingman Airport. We looked at it
in the telescope and it looked like two gold cat eyes. Then all
these planes returned again but within five minutes they were
all gone. This was very real and very freaky! Thought I would
share my experience! Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

CALIFORNIA - DISC, ORANGE OVAL DROPPING FLARES

SAN DIEGO -- Looking from our house in Spring Valley on hill we
noticed high up 5,000+ feet an on orange light moving slowly
southwest on October 7, 2003, at 9:35 PM. The orange dotlike
light began to drop flare type flame fireballs almost dipping
several times until the light moved out of vision due to
overcast conditions. This sighting only lasted about 45 seconds.
Thanks to Brian Vike, Director, HBCC UFO Research

WINTON -- In a clear sky at approximately 6:30 PM, on October
13, 2003, my daughters and I observed a white shaped disc object
in front of the setting sun moving north to south. We took two
photos of the object. The disc was large and white and flew in
the area for about a half hour. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

CANADA - FLAT SILVER UFO

SMITHERS, BC -- Four witnesses who were near the Driftwood
fossil beds watched a strange looking object for ten minutes
around 2:35 PM, on October 9, 2003. The object was described as
being very flat (almost looking like a wing of an aircraft),
silver in color and very long. It appears the sun was reflecting
off it, as it was shinning very brightly. One of the witnesses
described the tips of the object as being like a jet's wing
tips, slightly bent upwards. The object generally stayed
stationary in one spot, but from time to time it did move from
side to side. There was a line of red lights running along the
object. The lights moved from the tips of it into the center of
the object then disappeared. The red lights continued the same
pattern over and over again while it hovered. As the object was
leaving the area, it grew smaller and smaller as it moved into
the distance. But before they lost sight of it, they noticed
that it started growing in size, and all the witnesses said it
grew some 3 to 4 times larger then just vanished.

VONDA, SASKATCHEWAN -- Two friends were lying on the roof of a
shed star gazing when they both observed a lot of lights fly
really fast flashing across the sky in a circle on October 7,
2003, at 6 PM. It was yellow with a tint of green in the shape
of a circle. There were blinking lights with all different
colors. It was seen for ten seconds and then disappeared. It was
pretty scary because we had no idea what it was since it was too
colorful to be a plane and we never have balloons around Vonda.
Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Canadian Toll
Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989, hbccufo@telus.net CANADA HBCC

UK/ENGLAND - TWO BRIGHT LIGHTS HOVERING 100 YARDS HIGH

BICKERTON -- At 11 PM, the witness took one of his dogs out on a
clear night with a full moon on October 10, 2003, and noticed
clear lights but fuzzy not more than 100 yards in the sky. The
two lights were phosphorus like in a large circle chasing each
other. After a while they met together for a while then parted
and the pattern started over again. Above the lights was a
small, funny gray cloud. After about half an hour they suddenly
shot off in a northerly direction and disappeared. I went inside
and came out again with the other dog, when suddenly they came
back to the same spot. They continued for another 10 to 15
minutes and then just shot off again in the same direction. I
have not seen them since. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

 SWEDEN - TWO FLYING OBJECTS FLYING AT INCREDIBLE SPEED

KISTA - Two friends where outside Stockholm at 2:15 AM, on
October 9, 2003, when one said, "What if a UFO would come from
those clouds?" Just as he said that, his friend shouted "LOOK A
UFO!" They both saw a circle shaped flying object just where he
was pointing. It was flying with great speed with a bright aura
white light that later turned red. The craft then slowed and
then just vanished in the clear sky. We where shocked and
started to figure out every possible explanation to what we had
just witnessed, we told each other that it could have been a
meteoroid. The witness stated, "I clearly felt that they where
listening to our conversation since they showed up just as we
where talking about them." I said, "If you really heard what we
said and wanted to show us that you exist, then please show
yourselves one more time so that we can be sure". We kept
looking at the stars a couple of minutes as another one appeared
in the sky above us flying with great speed leaving a yellow
trail after itself and then disappearing as well. As soon as it
appeared I yelled "LOOK ANOTHER ONE" and my friends said "YES I
SEE IT, I SEE IT!" They appeared in different locations in the
sky and different heights. We are 100% certain that they where
not airplanes or anything natural, they where flying objects and
they seemed to communicate with us just by showing themselves in
the sky as we talked about them and with them.

BAHRAIN - STRANGE BRIGHT YELLOW LIGHTS

QURRAYAH -- Bahrain Tribune - People around the country have
reported seeing a UFO in the skies of Bahrain emitting strange
lights at around 11 PM on October 17, 2003. Bahraini Mohammed
Jaffer Al Hajer was sitting with six of his friends outside his
home near Budaiya when they noticed the UFO. Al Hajer 'caught'
the strange object on his digital video camera as the lights
appeared twice -- once when the UFO emitted a bright yellow
light and the second time when it split into two before
disappearing. "We first noticed the strange light appear to the
left of the Batelco tower," he said. "We saw it again just above
the tower when I reached for my camera and began to video tape
it." Al Hajer videotaped the object for about 40 seconds before
it disappeared. The pictures were not clear because of the high
speed of the object and the low resolution of the camera. People
in Manama also reported seeing the UFO. Bahrain International
Airport tower said the radar's did not register any abnormal
activity.
http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?ArticleId=9630&CategoryId=0


MARYLAND - SEEMED TO BE PRACTICING FORMATIONS

BALTIMORE - Bill Bean reports that a witness saw maneuvering lights in
the early morning sky, twice in October. On October 7, 2003, he saw the
lights in the sky early that morning. Thanks for being there with some
info on something most people don't want to talk about. Thanks to Bill Bean

KENNEDYVILLE -- It started out as three equally spaced orange lights in a
diagonal formation at about 7:30 PM, on October 9, 2003. The three lights
blinked out at the same time, then a large ball of orange light appeared
and two lights broke off into a horizontal formation. They faded out
again. This went on for almost an hour. Sometimes the ball would break off
into a vertical formation while at other times they flew in a horizontal
or diagonal formation. It would only stay visible for five seconds at a
time. The lasCt ten minutes were the most active. They broke off into a
formation of four that were all perfectly spaced. Then when it reappeared
it broke off into a formation of five lights, and finally into a vertical
formation of six equally spaced lights. The main light never moved once it
appeared. Once each ball of light went to it's place in the formation, the
formation stayed still for five seconds and then would fade out all at the
same time. My wife went next door to tell our neighbors. When the
neighbors cameC out to see, the craft(s) never revealed themselves again.
The lights seemed to be no more than 1,000 feet from the ground. Thanks
to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

OHIO -- STRANGE "PASSENGER JETS" AND NEW DIRIGIBLES

TRENTON - One night last week -- and again, on October 13, 2003, the
observer saw low flying "mystery planes" passing over his town in an area
surrounded by small, modest, municipal airports since it is the birthplace
of aviation. The nearest airport is in Middletown, and services a private
airline composed of smaller DC-3 aircraft. The low flying planes are the
size of a large passenger jet liner such as a Boeing 727, with weird
characteristics:

#1 - No sound of a discernible jet engine, even though they were low
enough for engine noise to be heard.

#2 - They appeared to be flying so low as to be coming in on a relatively
close landing approach, yet the two airports nearest me that are large
enough to land a passenger jet of THAT size are in Cincinnati and Dayton -
which are quite a ways away from Trenton. The airfields are too small to
handle these large planes.

#3 - The plane had it's wing tip lights TOO FAR BACK, as if it's
fuselage tapered into a "Delta" wing configuration similar to a British
Dehavilland Vampire fighter jet, or the Concord. I know of no planes that
fly around here with wings of that type. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

AKRON -- Not far away in Akron, the city where dirigible airships were
first built in 1924 and where lighter-than-air ships were made during
World War II could be the birthplace of a new generation of super-sleuth
blimps. The new generation of blimps designed at the Lockheed Martin
Airdock will not look like Super Bowl blimps but will be 25 times larger
and look like dirigibles. They will fly at twelve miles above the Earth
and carry radar systems used to detect missile launches, ships at sea or
for telecommunications. The Missile Defense Agency agreed to pay $40
million for the company to design the new airship and prove the technology
can work indicating prototypes may already be flying. I suspect some UFO
reports of exceptionally large, low flying triangles may be a prototype
already flying.

MICHIGAN - LIGHT CIRCLES ANOTHER

 FRASER - The witness pulled into the parking lot located ten miles from
Selfridge Air Base and noticed a family loading groceries on October 17,
2003, at 4:17 PM. All five of them were staring into the sky, they were
at a stand still. I parked two spaces over from them, and when I got out,
they asked me what that was in the sky. "Its been there for a few
minutes, the small light keeps moving around the big one." What I was
looking at was a large light shining in our direction that was about a
mile north of me, and about a half mile up. There was a smaller light
hanging out down and to the left of it. Moving a bit. Both lights were
very slowly moving towards us but very slowly. After about a minute, they
turned and flew away. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter


INDIANA - SAUCER SHAPED CRAFT WITH KALEIDOSCOPE LIGHTS

BLOOMINGTON -- A 53-year-old mother of four who considers herself to be a
sensible person and faith believing saw a disc on a cold evening on
October 10, 2003, at 10:30 PM. This object was about 70 to 80 feet across
with lights on the bottom. The lights were moving from the outer edge
toward the center of the disc in rectangular shapes. The disc appeared to
have louvers toward the center. When the light reached the center it would
radiate back out toward the outer edge. It appeared as if you were looking
in a kaleidoscope. The lights were a brilliant white. The lady watched for
three minutes as it moved from the northeast to a southwest direction. She
went into the house to get her husband, but when they came out, it was
gone. Thanks to PeterC Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

ILLINOIS - FOUR LIGHTS ROTATING IN A CIRCULAR MOTION

POPLAR GROVE - The witness was heading east on Route 173 on September
30, 2003, when he reached Caledonia at 10:34 PM, he witnessed two craft
that appeared to be planes with their landing lights. The lights were not
coming in his direction, but when he reached Poplar Grove, he realized he
was closing in on the craft, as they appeared larger and much brighter.
Continuing east the craft was fairly large and bright and appeared to be
hovering. I shut the headlights off and got out and saw two planes
flying, but suddenly the two other hovering objects shot straight up to
the sky, and within five seconds became distant stars themselves. They
were very faint lights but visible. The distance traveled in time was
incredible. It appeared that the craft flew 200-250 miles upward in a
matter of 5 seconds. These craft that I saw did not have blue or red
lights and did not appear to be planes at all. As I said, there were two
other planes flying in the vicinity, which circled around and flew
southwest toward Rockford Airport direction. I would find it hard to
believe that the pilots did not witness this also. ThCanks to Peter
Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

LA MOILLE - On October 4, 2003, a truck driver, his teacher wife and a
12 years old son observed four lights rotating around the outside of a
craft in a circular motion at 9:30 PM. Then the four white lights would
go back to the center and then do it all over again. There seemed to be
very faint light beams coming down from each one of the four lights. As we
observed the lights the whole formation moved a great distance over a
45-minute period. We live with vast amounts of cornfields around us. My
wife used to be a skeptic, now she doesn't know what to say, but that it
was the most amazing thing she's ever seen. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

MISSOURI - THE TEARDROP FLEW FASTER THAN ANY PLANE

KANSAS CITY -- I looked in the sky as I was driving down a semi-lit street
at 10:53 PM, on October 6, 2003, and saw a bright light flash from one
side of a flying object to the other. The light bent on the object as if
it were curved or raindrop shape, and as if the object was spinning or
turning. When the light got from one side to the other, the backside of
the object was facing me and as it did, the object dimmed and shot at
LEAST 20 miles across the sky and disappeared... It was a crystal clear
night, Cso it didn't disappear into any clouds.... I instantly called my
house to tell my fiance what I saw, as soon as I began to say hello, the
weirdest noise shot through my cell, she told me she heard it on her phone
too. I was only 1 mile from home. The noise sounded like radio frequency,
but was only a second long. Conditions were clear, with no clouds. Thanks
to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

ARIZONA  - HUGE GOLD SAUCER SIGHTING

KINGMAN - The witness was outside October 5, 2003, about 9:14 PM, having
a smoke, and talking to his best friend when they saw a huge saucer
floating over the neighbor's house. The witness states, "I mean this
thing was HUGE and had Gold flashing lights and reminded me of gold and
diamonds that were so bright and so glamour like." It was kind of
rotating back and forth in small motions. I started to yell into the phone
and told my friend to get her outside. I looked back up, just in time to
see theC saucer take off. I ran over to my Mom's house to tell her and she
said she was so jealous, because I always catch this kind of stuff. We all
went outside, and about two minutes later about 40 planes filled the sky.
They all met over the Cerbat Mountains and then separated. We have never
seen more than five planes in the sky on any given night. After the planes
left a huge bolt of green light flew out of the sky and landed in the
little mountains by my house. My Dad came running out and the sky was
filled Cwith 40 planes again. Then another huge Gold glowing light was
hanging over by the Kingman Airport. We looked at it in the telescope and
it looked like two gold cat eyes. Then all these planes returned again but
within five minutes they were all gone. This was very real and very
freaky! Thought I would share my experience! Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.ufocenter.com UFOcenter

CALIFORNIA - DISC, ORANGE OVAL DROPPING FLARES

SAN DIEGO -- Looking from our house in Spring Valley on hill we noticed
high up 5,000+ feet an on orange light moving slowly southwest on October
7, 2003, at 9:35 PM. The orange dotlike light began to drop flare type
flame fireballs almost dipping several times until the light moved out of
vision due to overcast conditions. This sighting only lasted about 45
seconds. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director, HBCC UFO Research

WINTON -- In a clear sky at approximately 6:30 PM, on October 13, 2003, my
daughters and I observed a white shaped disc object in front of the
setting sun moving north to south. We took two photos of the object. The
disc was large and white and flew in the area for about a half hour.
Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

CANADA - FLAT SILVER UFO

SMITHERS, BC -- Four witnesses who were near the Driftwood fossil beds
watched a strange looking object for ten minutes around 2:35 PM, on
October 9, 2003. The object was described as being very flat (almost
looking like a wing of an aircraft), silver in color and very long. It
appears the sun was reflecting off it, as it was shinning very brightly.
One of the witnesses described the tips of the object as being like a
jet's wing tips, slightly bent upwards. The object generally stayed
stationary in one spot, but from time to time it did move from side to
side. There was a line of red lights running along the object. The lights
moved from the tips of it intoC the center of the object then disappeared.
The red lights continued the same pattern over and over again while it
hovered. As the object was leaving the area, it grew smaller and smaller
as it moved into the distance. But before they lost sight of it, they
noticed that it started growing in size, and all the witnesses said it
grew some 3 to 4 times larger then just vanished.

VONDA, SASKATCHEWAN -- Two friends were lying on the roof of a shed star
gazing when they both observed a lot of lights fly really fast flashing
across the sky in a circle on October 7, 2003, at 6 PM. It was yellow with
a tint of green in the shape of a circle. There were blinking lights with
all different colors. It was seen for ten seconds and then disappeared.
It was pretty scary because we had no idea what it was since it was too
colorful to be a plane and we never have balloons around Vonda. Thanks to
Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1
866 262 1989, hbccufo@telus.net [
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html ]CANADA HBCC

UK/ENGLAND - TWO BRIGHT LIGHTS HOVERING 100 YARDS HIGH

BICKERTON -- At 11 PM, the witness took one of his dogs out on a clear
night with a full moon on October 10, 2003, and noticed clear lights but
fuzzy not more than 100 yards in the sky. The two lights were phosphorus
like in a large circle chasing each other. After a while they met together
for a while then parted and the pattern started over again. Above the
lights was a small, funny gray cloud. After about half an hour they
suddenly shot off in a northerly direction and disappeared. I went inside
and came out again with the other dog, when suddenly they came back to the
same spot. They continued for another 10 to 15 minutes and then just shot
off again in the same direction. I have not seen them since. Thanks to
Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

SWEDEN - TWO FLYING OBJECTS FLYING AT INCREDIBLE SPEED

KISTA - Two friends where outside Stockholm at 2:15 AM, on October 9,
2003, when one said, "What if a UFO would come from those clouds?"
Just as he said that, his friend shouted "LOOK A UFO!" They both saw a
circle shaped flying object just where he was pointing. It was flying
with great speed with a bright aura white light that later turned red.
The craft then slowed and then just vanished in the clear sky. We where
shocked and started to figure out every possible explanation to what we
had just witnessed, we told each other that it could have been a
meteoroid. The witness stated, "I clearly felt that they where listening
to our conversation since they showed up just as we where talking about
them." I said, "If you really heard what we said and wanted to show us
that you exist, then please show yourselves one more time so that we can
be sure". We kept looking at the stars a couple of minutes as another one
appeared in the sky above us flying with great speed leaving a yellow
trail after itself and then disappearing as well. As soon as it appeared I
yelled "LOOK ANOTHER ONE" and my friends said "YES I SEE IT, I SEE IT!"
They appeared in different locations in the sky and different heights. We
are 100C% certain that they where not airplanes or anything natural, they
where flying objects and they seemed to communicate with us just by
showing themselves in the sky as we talked about them and with them.

BAHRAIN - STRANGE BRIGHT YELLOW LIGHTS

QURRAYAH -- Bahrain Tribune - People around the country have reported
seeing a UFO in the skies of Bahrain emitting strange lights at around 11
PM on October 17, 2003. Bahraini Mohammed Jaffer Al Hajer was sitting
with six of his friends outside his home near Budaiya when they noticed
the UFO. Al Hajer 'caught' the strange object on his digital video camera
as the lights appeared twice -- once when the UFO emitted a bright yellow
light and the second time when it split into two before disappearing. "We
first noticed the strange light appear to the left of the Batelco tower,"
he said. "We saw it again just above the tower when I reached for my
camera and began to video Ctape it." Al Hajer videotaped the object for
about 40 seconds before it disappeared. The pictures were not clear
because of the high speed of the object and the low resolution of the
camera. People in Manama also reported seeing the UFO. Bahrain
International Airport tower said the radar's did not register any abnormal
activity.
http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?ArticleId=9630&CategoryId=0

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

                          Re: Mind Control? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:01:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:49:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - White


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:22:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: Mind Control?

<snip>

>This raises several more questions. Many people, including myself
>and also a number of abduction experiencers are not convinced of
>the reality (in physical terms) of the experience. There are
>several ways of looking at this in relation to mind control, but
>it boils down to three generic options:

>a) The abduction experience is real, and mind control is real.
>b) The abduction experience is not real, but is induced by a form
>of mind control.
>c) Neither mind control or the abduction experience are real.

Well, I can tell you from the sabotage and in-community
harassment by _people_, which are integral to mind control, that
mind control is real. Remember, mind control harassment
continues day and night, and is every bit as intense whether at
home, in your car, in an aircraft, at work, in a shopping mall.

You can examine one of the metal fractures requiring at least
2,000 pounds tension on a piece of metal furniture tubing if you
want, yet, _no_ tool marks of any kind. _No_ distortion of
nearby structure either. As an engineer with experience in
stress analysis, I assure you this break was not done using any
ordinary method, and its timing, just a few days after bringing
home the piece of furniture was typical.

I had an expensive air matterss which mysteriously held me up
fine all day, yet every day for the three months I had it, had
knife-tip slits in it when I got home, requiring a patch job every
single day before I threw it away.

Computer files at work would consistently be overwritten by an
older version at least monthly. PCs which I set up would work
fine until I went home. The next day, the motherboards were
totally shot. Programs I had written would fail the next day,
in bizarre ways, not traceable to any bug in the code. And
other seniour programmers verified there was nothing wrong
in my source code. Yet none of the other programmers ever
had a single problem.

An RS-232 and similar data cable carries only a milliamp or two
to work properly. A brand new 100 foot run of category 5 (high
quality) data cable stopped carrying data. I replaced connectors
on both ends. A sophisticated cable tester, not just continuity,
showed the cable was class-A perfect. The pinouts were perfect.
There were no sources of interference and none registered on the
tester.

I was able to light a flashlight bulb, one which drew half an
_amp_ (500 milliamps, hundreds of times more than what was
required) through every pin of this 8-conductor cable.

Yet it refused to carry data. I was forced to run a second
identical cable through the dirty false ceiling to get the
department served by the cable back up. This happened on a day I
was very ill with flu or something similar. Such events are
usually scheduled like that. The seniour consultant programmer
who watched the performance and had many clients all over the
greater Toronto area had never seen anything even remotely like
that.

My company car had all the antifreeze drained out of the hose
leading from the windshield washer pump to the back window one
cold night (it was a small station wagon) which destroyed the
washer feature, essential for safe driving in winter with a
station wagon due to slushy, muddy roads. I had never used any
water whatsoever in that system.It was just the hose and pump,
and the reservoir still had antifreeze solution in it.

My closest colleague (in Texas) who is also a target has had
holes drilled in seveal water pump housings on her truck, soil
put in her oil, and jello in her transmission. She has caught
visiting tradesmen working on her house deliberately causing
damage to something which was in perfect condition.

My shoes were made to whistle. In that company, for several
months, I had the nickname 'whistler'. It wasn't squeaky shoes.
They were soft suede loafers with gum rubber soles. They
whistled whether I walked on carpet, concrete, gravel or grass.
They whistled with nylons, socks, or bare skin.

The controllers can switch such effects off and on at will, and
as with the whistling shoes, some are witnessed.

Hard copy files and diskettes and CDs, both home and at work,
are routinely stolen.

I have worn velcro type shoes. Almost every pair I've had will
be put away, I'll go to work or on errands in another pair, then
I will return and the pile side has been pulled out to the point
of breaking so many of the loops they are useless. That's about
half a dozen pairs and I can no longer afford to wear them. They
have perfect gripping power when I put them away, yet have
virtually no gripping power on my next wearing.

Every button-style shirt I have has had the inside flap ironed
over making it very hard to button. If I iron it flat again, the
next time I wear it, it's ironed over again. Poltergeists don't
use clothes irons.

Some of our members repeatedly have their houses trashed and
soot dumped on the carpet. Disinterested police "take the
report" but "just don't seem to be interested in finding the
perp."

There is nothing speculative about mind control, and having been
through it, it is more than mere 'belief' that UFOs have similar
capabilities.

>Each of the options above produce another set of specific
>questions, most of which cannot be satisfactorily answered
>currently (therefore none of the above can be shown to be
>correct or incorrect).

I don't see how the physical evidence on the bodies of abductees
can possibly lead anyone to say abduction "isn't real".

>>2. Antigravity is involuntarily imposed on a small number (maybe
>>a dozen I know about) of mind control targets, myself included.
>>Some have been levitated into mid air, others held against a
>>wall and unable to get down. Not poltergeists, because of the
>>extremely wide spectrum of other forms of harassment, too
>>extensive to discuss here.

>This again raises many more questions. The only one that I would
>like to raise on-list is why you exclude poltergeist activity
>(and presumably any explanation that does not involve mind
>control)?

See above. The harassment goes _far_ beyond things which might
be attributable to delusion or illusion.

> The reason that you give above is "because of the
>extremely wide spectrum of other forms of harassment, too
>extensive to discuss here" yet you also say that the phenomenon
>only applies to a small number of targets. The link appears to
>me to be very tenuous, I don't see how there can be any element
>of certainty.

It's easy for someone who has not been through it to take pot
shots and say it's all imaginary. We have these classes of
"proof":

- About 2,000 known targets, world wide, who are first person
  witnesses willing to testify under oath.

- High consistency of forms of attack around the world, among
  people who have never met

- Very high frequency of "bad luck" situations, _far_ beyond
  anything which could be called "random"

- Physical evidence of sabotage at home, car, and work

- Physical evidence from our bodies, if instrumentation were
  affordable

- The existence of UNclassified equipment which can perform
  some of the mind/body effects (including voice to skull)

- The history of government mind control and other atrocities,
  such as MKULTRA, COINTELPRO, and the human radiation
  experiments clearly shows the will to do this kind of thing

>>3. Interdimensional stunts are part of our experience. Rarely
>>but definitely, possessions are made to disappear "right under
>>the noses" of mind control targets. Feeling carefully and
>>looking on uncluttered clean floors finds nothing. Then, in some
>>cases, these objects are made to drop out of thin air into the
>>laps of the targetted person, even in a _moving_ vehicle.

>This phenomenon sounds identical to many reported poltergeist
>cases. Again, I would question how you establish a direct link
>between such phenomena and mind control?

Poltergeist experiences don't follow you in your car to work,
and they are more random, not precisely targetted and timed.

We don't get dishes and knives flying around, though I have no
doubt the perpetrator equipment could do that. I have to sleep
on the very coarse 3M paint scrubbing pads to "mask" the
electric shock effects the perps hit me with nightly. These pads
_are_ routinely flipped off the bed on to the floor, making me
scramble around in the dark to get them back.

The nightly force-awake effect will occur, say, at _precisely_
2:00 am and zero seconds, and may repeat for 6 months. Then it
switches to, say, 3:00 am and zero seconds.

By taking _all_ experiences together as the integrated set we
experience. Harassment/torture is the only explanation if you
look at the full set.

People love to play the "Let's see what else can cause this
effect or that" game but doing that produces "explanations"
which are often a real "stretch", and point to many _different_
causes. But only harassment/torture fits _all_ the effects.

More than that, there's the matter of frequency. We have several
(or many) events in 24 hours which might be considered normal if
they only happened once every six months. We find that people
who are not targetted have a mental block and can't grasp the
frequency factor. The perpetrators have designed a very well
covered up harassment/torture program.

Finally, the average human being _really_ doesn't _want_ this to
be true, so there is a hunger for alternative explanations like
"poltergeists" or the more common "mental illness" explanation.

>>Another annoying one is the injection of air inside the upper
>>lips, which occurs when the target is awake but trying to get to
>>sleep, creating loud flatulence-like sounds. I assure the reader
>>that this is _not_ air coming up from the lungs. Yet the lips
>>are firmly closed, so to my mind, it's popping into 'my'
>>dimension from another one.

>This sounds bizarre, but there could be physiological
>explanations.

The air appears out of _nowhere_ Joe. Don't think we haven't
played the "alternate explanations" game too. Its as if a tiny
compressed air hose were inserted inside your upper lip.

Once the air is expelled, all is quiet for a short while until
this repeats.

>I think most people experience this occasionally,
>particularly when their mouth is moist and they suddenly smile
>or grimace. Could this not be a case of looking for something to
>associate with mind control, and consequently reaching spurious
>conclusions?

Not a snowball's chance in Hell.

>>4. Incredibly precise manipulation of body parts, without the
>>use of the muscles, something which seems to occur in some
>>abductions. I must sleep with a neck brace stuffed with foam
>>rubber, otherwise, my controllers will force my jaw side to side
>>or up and down like a wind-up "yakking" pair of teeth. Forced
>>speech is attempted, though I haven't heard forced speech yet
>>which is as clear as normal speech. The perpetrators are
>>definitely working on it, though.

>My ex-wife used to do this for periods during her sleep. She was
>totally unaware of it, suffered no ill effects, and has no
>sensation of being controlled, or abduction flashbacks etc. I
>suspect that this is another possible spurious association.

This happens while I am _wide_ awake.

>>5. I've had John Velez' three symbols commonly seen by abductees
>>posted on my web site's survey form for almost a year. These can
>>be seen at the top left of the Abduction Information Center at:

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html

<snip>

>I looked for the page with the symbols, but couldn't find it?

It's still there, top left. I just checked.

> It
>would be interesting to substitute those symbols with symbols
>unconnected with the abduction phenomenon and compare the
>results over an extended period of time. I would not be
>surprised to find that people reported seeing the unconnected
>symbols during abduction experiences just as frequently. I think
>it would be worth at least putting up a selection of 10 or so,
>and asking people to select only three that they see during
>experiences, and compare the results.

You'll have to ask John Velez - I'm too busy with other work.

The symbols are not a big issue compared with trying to get the
mind control operation exposed and stopped.

<snip>

>Firstly, I condemn the harrassment that you mention. I hope that
>you don't take my posts as an example of that, I think there is
>a difference between harrassment and challenging someone's
>views. What I question above is the reference to "UFO-level
>technology". How do you make this connection?

The technology used on us includes antigravity, for one, and
mind control, used to capture/paralyze the abductees, and erase
their memories. Memory erasure is a common effect we experience,
and yes, we have asked doctors and found no answers.

>No legal system is perfect, and I suspect that the US legal
>system is more open to political interference than the UK
>system, but there must be _some_ conscientious and humanitarian
>people in the US legal profession. If there was endemic abuse of
>the system as you seem to imply, surely some insiders would have
>blown whistles by now?

I think tying a dog to a stake and killing it by denial of water
would be one of the cruelest acts ever performed. I don't think
a mute statement like "no legal system is perfect" even belongs
in the same _galaxy_ as this one Terri Schiavo was tortured in.

We in the mind control camp _know_ about the endemic abuse of
the system. So do others who have government atrocities carried
out against them daily. The reason whistle blowers are not heard
is the corrup media. There are plenty of heroic whistleblowers.

Two of our members who were doing a considerable amount of
public activism and successfully are now doing long terms in
prison, utterly, totally _framed_ by the system. Judges refuse
to allow them to enter evidence - that's one of the main cover
up methods popular today.

One Virginia lawyer accused the system of corruption, and then
was disbarred because she "thought the system was corrupt." She
showed them the official transcript of her hearing, and another
she had retrieved from the courthouse trash, _proving_ that the
court had altered the transcripts.

Covering up has become the most advanced technology of the late
20th and now 21st century, and the media works very hard to make
sure you don't know that.

>>Current-day psycho-electronic mind control is my area of
>>expertise. We are not experts in the technology, but we are
>>experts in what is happening to us.

>This is slightly worrying to me.I appreciate that it is probably
>difficult to get professionals (technological and medical) to
>take an interest in the topic, but it is a little like getting
>medical patients to issue diagnoses to each other based on their
>own symptoms and with little or no professional training. I hope
>that you understand my point?

Doctors have no training or updating in covert experimentation
programs, or other covert government crime. Your point is not
valid with respect to our issue, because criminal activity is
involved.

Maybe such professionals might be of use to abductees.

>>Current day mind control continues until death in most cases,
>>once the victim is "enrolled" in this program.

>>>2. Why are some people affected and not others?

>>My survey form received 12,000 hits in 24 hours in April 2002,
>>as a result of the survey form link being posted on a "strange
>>news" web site. One percent, about 120, responded and said they
>>had several or all of the symptoms. That may mean as many as one
>>percent, or about three million North Americans are targetted.
>>This in turn means the vast majority of North Americans are not
>>currently targetted.

>...or don't know that they are?

We have a feeling that the targetted but unaware are a large
number, but we have no real good way of knowing how large.

>>There are a few common threads - people who "tick off" someone
>>with a lot of money and influence tend to be enrolled in this
>>mess.
>
>Again, I think there is a strong possibility of erroneous
>association. If someone gets a parking ticket every time they
>park illegally, this doesn't mean that there is a campaign of
>mind control directed at them, it's probably just bad luck. The
>mind control platform gives people an opportunity to express
>their dislike of authority, etc. and draws attention to their
>(possibly unrelated) issues.

If someone blows a whistle about a major corporate crime,
they are likely to be targetted as we are. Or a very hostile
divorce. We don't consider that "a lot of parking tickets"
is a cause. We are not paranoid and we have every bit
as sound and complete ability to think critically as anyone
else.

>>The fact that two people who are physically close, even in an
>>embrace, can experience entirely different effects, or one gets
>>effects and the other gets none, demonstrates the incredible
>>precision which the advanced signals are capable of. That,
>
>...or the internal nature of the phenomenon.....

Again - you haven't gone through it.

>>together with the fact that even good electromagnetic shielding
>>does _nothing_ to stop or even slow down the mind/body attack
>>signals, tells me that the level of physics being wielded by the
>>perpetrators is on a par with ESP.
>
>... or some would say black magic, ie a curse?

I suspect that ESP, black magic, curses, all such phenomena are
all made of the same stuff when it comes to underlying physics.

Both "Psychic Discoveries" and "Secret Life of Plants" show
examples that "object imprinting" is a genuine occurrence, not
imagination.

>>We see no evidence of unwieldy equipment being aimed at us, and
>>the signals follow us even while hiking well away from
>>civilization. ESP is self-aiming, totally selective, and has no
>>known range limit, and fits all of are effects very well. That
>>is why, in my view, only some people are affected.

>Again, this also suggests an internal rather than external cause
>to me.

Well Joe, you just have yourself a wonderful life believing
that, if it makes you comfortable.

>>>3. How do people know that they are victims of MC as opposed to
>>>say some form of Schitzophrenia/Paranoia?

>>Some of us have been examined by psychiatrists, as I have more
>>than once. The result is "You show no signs of mental illness,
>>however I [the doctor] cannot say what sort of targetting you
>> may be receiving."

>It's a funny thing, doctors can certify someone as insane, but
>they can't certify someone as sane! (only fit to stand trial,
>fly an aircraft, or hold the keys to the Nuclear storage area).
>I think that the phenomenon (as opposed to individuals) could
>benefit from detailed psychiatric/psychological investigation,
>if only to eliminate these potential causes.

>>But more compelling than that is the large amount of _small_,
>>that is, _very_ carefully engineered sabotage, designed so as to
>>prevent the official intervention of police. At work overnight,
>>my work (any I left out rather than bringing home) was routinely

>I suppose it depends on State privacy laws, but is it not
>possible to arrange surveillance (covert or overt) in your
>workspace with the support and agreement of management? Your
>employers obviously have a vested interest in preventing people
>from tampering with your work.

The perps can shut off any appliance at will, and have done so.
Or they can blast the appliance with "static" and other forms of
interference, making it useless.

Surveillance equipment does prove to reduce, but not stop, some
of the sabotage, but there are plenty of ways to harass that the
camera won't pick up. Like noise campaigns, cascaded slamming of
apartment doors in the middle of the night.

>>sabotaged. My apartment is entered at least weekly, and my

>Again, surveillance should identify the origin of this activity
>and is becoming cheaper every day. Standard indoor survellance
>cameras start at around $45, for $100 you can get them hidden in
>smoke alarms, electrical fittings, book/video/dvd covers etc.
>VCR's can be set up to record 8 hours using E240 tapes on LP
>while you are out. If this is occuring as regularly as you
>describe, you should eventually capture some evidence on video.
>The alternative is to fit a good alarm system for about $300-
>well worth peace of mind.

I've tried a camcorder. The perps either stop their effects,
or shut it off.

>>clothing gets slow rips which are made bigger even if I don't
>>wear the item (often in the crotches and armpits), my hard copy

>There are a number of mundane potential causes for this,
>particularly in areas that fit near joints.

Sorry, Joe, at age 62 I know something about clothing and I am
quite capable of distinguishing between normal wear and
sabotage. Also, often, the holes start out as a large array of
many individual small holes, definitely not a normal wear
pattern.

>>archives are stolen from, my computer is constantly sabotaged,

>Again, physical and software security should be able to prevent
>this or identify the perpetrators.

See above where I describe computer manipulation not explainable
by experts.

>>new furniture gets snapped somehow soon after acquisition
>>(including tensile breaks requiring thousands of pounds yet

>Have you considered that you may just be very unlucky, and there
>was a structural flaw?

I'm an experienced stress analyst. The tensile break I refer to
above is in a _leg_ which carries compressive load only.

>>leaving no tool marks, or the back of a chair which was
>>hacksawed off) and my consumable supplies are regularly dumped
>>by small amounts, unless I mark and date every container. I live
>>alone and this is not someone else in the apartment doing this.

>Again, I suggest physical security. What you are starting to
>describe is a physical campaign of harrassment, rather than any
>form of ethereic mind control.

The alternate theory game does not explain all the effects taken
as the integrated set we experience.

>>The only explanation that fits is that the same signal type
>>which is responsible for ESP is also being used by perpetrator
>>equipment.

>... mmmm... why would they then use a hacksaw to attack your
>chair?

I can't explain the mind set of people who would do this.

>>This is not as far-out as it sounds. Czech engineer Robert
>>Pavlita, back in the 1960s, using information from ancient
>>texts, found a way to transfer psychic abilities to inanimate
>>objects which he called "psychotronic generators". So we have
>>already had, on Earth, primitive "equipment" capable of
>>performing ESP-level effects.

>I am not familiar with Pavlita's work, but it doesn't seem to
>have reached the marketplace since the 1960's. It sounds a bit
>like some of the "Free energy" scams.

Read "Psychic Discoveries" for details. Video footage is
available of the 'generators' in operation. The two North
American authors were witnesses.

>>Cold War Soviet scientists spent huge sums researching
>>psychotronic generators for military purposes, but the results
>>of that research have not been made public.

>>See "Psychic Discoveries" by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder
>>for details.

>>http://www.raven1.net/psydisc.htm

>>>5. Surely one aspect of the "control" would be to prevent the
>>>victim from becoming aware of it?

>>I can't explain the mind state of people so mentally ill as to
>>torture other people. We have some _un_ verifiable writings sent
>>to us anonymously by people claiming to be the perpetrators, if
>>you would like to check those out:

>>http://www.raven1.net/perpsurv.htm

>These are less than worthless, more likely to add confusion and
>disinformation rather than any insight into potential MC
>operations. I especially like the one who was "cut off from
>society" by the FBI, yet managed to fill in an internet form!

Ever heard of telephone lines into secure buildings?

They may be useless in court, but we find them interesting to
take with a grain of salt.

>>If you look at the FBI COINTELPRO crimes, from the mid 1950s and
>>supposedly into the 1970s, they made extensive use of highly
>>visible "surveillance", that is, harassment. Sometimes, powerful
>>organizations _want_ the target to _know_ they are being
>>harassed. I can't explain their motives.

>>http://www.raven1.net/warathom.htm

>Fair comment, I can see how overt surveillance may serve some
>purpose, but if someone is aware that an attempt is being made

>to excercise control over them, they can then resist the
>attempt. If they are successful, they become "out of control"
>and therefore the purpose of the control is defeated and may be
>terminally compromised.

I stated the term "mind control" is far from a good descriptor.

>>It is obvious that our roughly 2,000 members world wide, of
>>people who have finally realized their "bad luck" is actually
>>harassment, are being targetted by people who _want_ us to know.

>Or are they 2,000 unlucky people trying to find an explanation
>for their bad luck?

You have to take frequency into account and the wide array of
24/7 effects.

You have a choice: Write us off as nut cases, and be very cozy
in your world, or grant us the same credibility you would like
for UFO matters.

>>>6. If the source is electromagnetic, what frequencies are used?
>>>If that is known then it should be easy to detect and map out
>>an area of operation, and trace the source.
>
>>If we take _all_ the effects, and their unshieldability using
>>conventional electromagnetic shielding, the signal can't be
>>conventional electromagnetic.
>
>I'm not so sure - VLF (very low frequency) is relatively immune
>to conventional EM shielding, since objects (even geological
>formations) can resonate and "repeat" the signal. VLF is also
>known to cause physiological effects, and has been a subject of
>experimentation as a "secret weapon". See:

Except ELF/VLF/ULF can only perform a small fraction of the
effects. Like bending one's toes back almost 90 degrees
inside the shielding, one at a time.

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=
11012039&dopt=Abstract

>for instance. The main difficulty of VLF being the source of the
>phenomenon is in specifically targetting _individuals_ over
>large distances.

We know what ELF/VLF/ULF can and can't do, and it can only do
some of what we experience, furthermore, in an apartment setting
particularly, other tenants would experience symptoms too.

>>We do have some anomalous electromagnetic signals which are
>>unusual but do not operate in sync with the mind/body effects. A
>>drawing of a scope trace in my apartment is here:

>>http://www.raven1.net/scoptrac.gif

>It may be relevant that both 120 Hz and 180 Hz are harmonics of
>the US domestic mains frequency (60 Hz). Also, I don't know if
>you live close to an institution involved in laser or linear
>acceleration research (whatever that is), but 120Hz appears to
>have some significance in this field, see:

As a former power line engineer, I understand harmonics.

The signal emanates from a point just above my pillow.
Power line noise doesn't do that. Furthermore, this signal
drops sharply off just outside my apartment door. That
is also uncharacteristic of ELF signals.

>http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/lcls/technotes/LCLS-TN-02-7.pdf
>
>60 and 120 Hz are also commonly used in video equipment,
>including PC video cards.

This signal appeared long before I even owned a PC.

>>Interesting that using an AM radio, the loopstick antenna of
>>which is fairly directional, as a direction finder, this signal
>>seems to peak at a point in mid-air just above my pillow. This
>>has been true of the last three places I've lived.

>I would expect to find similar peaks at a uniform height and
>uniform orientation throughout the locale, but it is difficult
>to test because of the influence of any large masses (eg human
>bodies or even furniture and building structure) in proximity to
>the antenna. It is entirely possible that a focal point could be
>naturally present in the location described, and even appear to
>"follow" you if you move your bed, if the bedframe and your body
>are a major influence.

>>Using the fairly decent "Tri Field Meters",

>>http://www.TriField.com

>>(which, by the way, should make excellent "UFO detectors" for
>>abductees,) and frequency counters, we have not found any
>>signals which consistently are in sync with body effects.

>>In the ghost investigation arena, ghost appearances are
>>accompanied by electromagnetic activity which seems to be a kind
>>of "by product" of the main event. I suspect the advanced mind
>>control signals may cause similar "by product" EM signals but
>>which are not the actual harassment-carrying signal.

>>That's only scratching the surface, but it's my answer to your
>>questions.

>Thanks, your answers are appreciated, but as I expected they
>raise even more questions. It is possible that some of the ill
>effects described could be a result of strong VLF emissions
>(possibly from innocent sources), and that is an avenue which
>you may like to explore further, particularly the 120/180 Hz
>signal.

I don't have time for more questions and I'm sure the List, as a
whole, doesn't want to wade through more. With over 150 emails a
day to respond to, I can't normally handle emails this long. (I
can't imagine how Errol does it.)

Thanks for taking the time this one time, though.


Eleanor White








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

                      Re: A Demonic Conspiracy - Wenger

From: Eric Wenger <wenger@uisoftware.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:08:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:21:32 -0400
Subject: Re: A Demonic Conspiracy - Wenger


>From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:46:46 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:32:04 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>>So, Terry, are you saying that the Fatama Incident was probably
>>>a demonic manifestation as well?

In a time where the President of the US dares to say publicly
that God himself told him to invade Irac without fear of
terminal ridicule, we shouldn't be surprised to find some
explaining the UFO & abduction issues as demonic activity.

If we are so retarded that we still believe these silly and old
superstitions there's no wonder Aliens do whatever they do in
secret. We are simply way too primitive to handle them.

What a shame.


Best,

Eric the Atheist







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:42:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:24:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - McCoy


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:03:54 -0300
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:45:43 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:15:19 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


<snip>

>>>I don't want 150 witnesses, Jerry; I don't even want 48. Just
>>>one independent, first person account would be enough. It is all
>>>too clear however, that you are incapable of producing one.
>>>I think, as someone once said, this says far more about your
>>>argument than it does about mine.

>>Mr. Rimmer;

>>It seems pretty obvious to me, sir, that you don't really want
>>even that "one" and would artfully dodge him too, were he
>>provided to you. Your argument remains the more self-revealing.

>Jerry, Al,

>They ridicule and belittle, smirk and giggle when the witnesses
>report a sighting, then offer up some of the most ridiculous
>solutions for the sighting. And then they have the gall to ask
>why the witnesses want to remain anonymous.

Hello,all, Don, Gerry et.al.

Amen! Having been a pro-pilot and knowing the ridicule,
questioning, and general horrors that go with being a
'Believer' (as opposed to a experiencer), why jepordize your
career?


GT McCoy
who knows a guy who was "passed by the moon"






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

               Re: Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:21:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:49:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II -


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:12:41 -0700
>Subject: Dr. Jung And The UFOs: The Real Story! II

>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/4, Winter 2001, pp. 7-11.

>http://www.fsreview.net

>Frames warning...

>Dr. Jung and the UFOs: The Real Story!
>(C) by Gordon Creighton


>III. Dr. Jung Says 'Flying Disks' Suggest Quasi-Human Pilots.
>[Re-print from FSR Volume 30, No. 5 (June 1985)

>NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, July 30, 1958. Associated Press report
>rom Alamogordo, N.M., July 29.]

>Dr. Carl Jung, Swiss psychologist, says in a report released
>yesterday that unidentified flying objects are real, and show
>signs of intelligent guidance by quasi-human pilots. "I can only
>say for certain that these things are not a mere rumour.
>Something has been seen. A purely psychological explanation is
>ruled out". Dr. Jung, who had started his research on UFOs in
>1944, issued his statement through the UFO-Filter Centre of the
>Aerial Phenomena Research Association (A.P.R.O.) here. He said:


I would like to thank Terry for taking the time to make
available these important statements by Jung and the other
material from FSR.








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   Oct > Oct 23

                       Re: A little Question - Wenger

From: Eric Wenger <wenger@uisoftware.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:41:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: A little Question - Wenger


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:18:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:50:17 -0700
>>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>That is a reasonable hypothesis, yes. Lets say UFOs do show
>>themselves now and then, to acclimatize us to their presence.

>>Would standard sightings (fly-bys, the occasional blurry photo
>>etc.) be enough? Or, does is make more sense to put on a
>>fireworks display over Phoenix, Arizona on the same night as a
>>military exercise with lots of flares?

>>It is my personal prejudice after cataloguing over 18,100
>>sightings, that they would prefer to remain unproved, and as
>>little noticed as possible.

>Larry,

>Unproved, yes (unless we can make all the accumulated evidence
>convincing). But "little noticed"? I don't think so. All those
>thousands of UFO pacings of aircraft and cars were not attempts
>to be unnoticed!

>However, to be both unproved and noticed (but not noticed by
>society as a whole) requires a careful balance on the part of
>the UFO intelligences.


The obsession to have physical and convincing proof is
understandable but I suspect it won't matter in the slightest.

No matter how much evidence we'll have - and we have a lot
already - there will still be doubts and deep denial about the
matter. Whatever they do, I'm sure the aliens can keep on
without too much fear of being recognized as such.

The problem is not a physical issue but philosophical. As was
truly said in the 'American Beauty' movie: never underestimate
the power of denial .

We have now sightings in the hundreds of thousands, well
documented abduction cases in the thousands - not to mention
implants and physical traces, but we still refuse, collectively,
to accept the reality of aliens, using extremely weak arguments
like "they can't possibly travel to us", or "life is too rare in
the universe", or "we have a special place in the creation".

In a way Ufologists should spend as much time educating the
public in science and philosophy than trying to find the
undeniable proof that would settle the issue. Look how much
evidence we have now about global warming and how reluctant the
economic and political power is to acknowledge it.

As a society we refute the reality of aliens not because we have
no proof, but because our self-proclamed position of the most
important species in the universe will be greatly challenged by
it. A cosmic view, where we might end up to be an arrogant but
pretty primitive civilization among older and wiser (lets hope)
ones, is a hard sell.

How much proof did Giordano Bruno or Copernic to convince the
inquisition about the true nature of the solar system? The
clerics were looking in the bible. No amount of evidence would
have convinced them.

Eric Wenger







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   Oct > Oct 23

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie

From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:00:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:02:34 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Lavoie


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:11:22 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Andrew Lavoie <lavoiea@rogers.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:05:33 -0300
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>Now, where on the drawing or in any other descriptions
>>does it say to use scotch tape to secure the edges?

>Where does it forbid it? It also has a taping instruction to
>secure various loose ends, which you yourself presented here. It
>says to tape to paper "whenever possible," which you, as usual,
>distorted into an instruction that forbade the white strips,
>which it doesn't. The white strip would have a seam that was
>half paper and half foil. Half the tape would be on paper; half
>on foil. Nothing in the specs forbids this.

I think you fotgot to include part of the instructions. The instructions
said and I will quote verbatim as follows: "Any tears, loose sticks, or
loose seams are repaired with tape, applied to the paper surface rather than
to the foil whenever possible." I did not distort that the instruction as
forbiding anything. I was simply tring to point out that to apply Scotch
tape to secure the edges was not a standard design practice.

>>Than how did you determine that the length of the stick is 35"
>>if you did not measure the height?
>>
>>Is this just a guess on your
>>part because if it is then your guessing the length in favor of
>>your theory aren't you? Your entire argument beyond this point
>>is useless because you are assuning the stick is 35".
>
>I'm not "guessing" or "assuming" anything. I did an actual
>measurement.
>
>Since you yourself said you ended up with 36", this is another
>one of your pointless "so what?" arguments. We both agree on the
>length, within measurement error. The measurements, including
>yours, match exactly with what would be expected for a stick
>from an ML-307 radar target. So what's the problem?
>What do you mean by "prove it?" This is a typical debating
>tactic of somebody who really has no argument.

First, I have not measured the length of any stick to be 36".
You might be thinking of our discussions regarding the radiator.
The one on the right was 36" in height. The other possibilty is
that you might have had a discussion with someone else and they
said the stick was 36" in length. But, I can tell you that I
have not measured any sticks 36" in length.

Second, I still don't understand how your measuring the length
of the stick on the right of the panel since only a portion of
it is visable below the panel. You must be assuming that the
stick runs the entire length of the panel which in my book is a
guess. In the AirForce report, which you feel is a relaible
document, there is a Mensuration Working Paper that oulines
various measurements they took of the debris. They don't even
take a stab at measuring it's length because obviously they
couldn't see the entire length/height of the stick.

Whats also interesting is that in the Mensuration Working Paper,
there is only one stick that they measure close to 36" and it's
not even attached to one of the panels. Granted one could say
that some of the sticks were broken and that's why we can't see
more than one stick 36" in length which is a valid argument. But
that being the case, how do you determine that there is a
complete target on the floor if so many pieces are broken up.
They only way this can be achieved is by making assumptions and
you know the definition of assume, don't you?

>>If I really wanted to bash you publicly, I could reveal other of
>your absolute representations to me that were wrong or complete
>nonsense. Remember, e.g., your bogus Ramey radiator height that
>you clung to for weeks, all based your misreading of the
>radiator spec sheet which actually showed other radiator heights
>for different models? But, as usual, you blew off all evidence
>pointing to you being wrong (such as the radiator being shorter
>than the chair next to it). Your argument was the spec sheets
>never lie, and I couldn't disuade you. Finally you reread your
>own spec sheet and realized you had overlooked the other
>numbers.

David,

You knew that I was having a problem in understanding the
effects of perspective distortion as applied to photos. It was
my first stab a measuring items in a photograph. I have also
said in the past that I appreciated your help with this.
However, I can see that items discussed privately with you are
not private and therefore I cannot say things in private to you
because you will use it to discredit me. I will be alot more
careful in the future. Anything that I have stated with respect
to your findings were already said in previous emails to the
list.

>I would also appreciate it if you wouldn't constantly
>misrepresent the evidence and dream up outrageous conspiracy
>theories to advance your anti-rawin target agenda.

For the record, I am not misrepresenting anything.


Best Regards,

Andrew Lavoie







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                   Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:07:47 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:21:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Ledger


>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:30:02 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 -0300
>>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy


<snip>

>While I agree that the statement 'There is not a single UFO
>incident on record that cannot be explained as a demonic
>deception or apparition' is a bit much, and certainly without an
>evidential foundation, your comments in response ignore those
>who engage in critical biblical studies in much the same way
>that the mainstream media tends to lump all ufologists in with
>the the 'wackos'. Generalities such as 'those who believe in
>demons per se are a bit soft in the head to begin with' are
>always dangerous, a double-edge sword that can easily be turned
>around. This comes from one who 'believes' in both a Supreme
>Being and UFOs, and doesn't see anything mutually exclusive
>between them.


Hi Paul,

I too believe in steel I-Beams and concrete-even forklifts, but
I draw the line at "believeing in" UFOs. After all there are
UFOs, it's a fact of life. Some become IFOs and some become
unknowns or "phenomenon" or whatever else you want to call them.
But UFOs as something to believe in, like an afterlife or
supreme being, I can't buy. I believe the phenomenon exists,
that there are craft flying about in the skies that aren't ours,
but I don't believe in them anymore than I believe in Boeing
747-400s.

I'm not religious, and I don't harbour any ill will to those
that are-unless they want to stone me or try to get me to
believe that we all sprung from Adam and Eve.

I always bristle at the term Believe in UFOs because it implies
a religious connotation, as if we worship at the foot of some
saucer-shaped icon on the second Thursday of each month, wave or
flashlghts around and envoke the alien diety or something.

Demons as the alien, or maybe the other way around. What I've
been taught that demons do and what I've learned that alien
entities are supposed to do, don't exactly match up. I mean my
doctor has done some of this stuff to me and I don't consider
him a demon.

And why weren't you at the conference? Your uncle was there.

Best,

Don Ledger








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   Oct > Oct 23

                        Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:47:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:00:52 -0400
Subject: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified


Hello all:

Please bear with me, this is priceless!

Some of you probably recognize this well known image, the
undersea 'antenna' from the book Harmonic 33, by Bruce Cathie;
[A.& A. Reed, Wellington, NZ 1968 page 32.]

http://www.larryhatch.net/ELTANIN.jpg

I was as mystified, catalogued the given date, and
mapped it.

SAGA Magazine published a one-sided article about it, and the
'Eltanin Antenna' became a major mystery which blossomed into
one of the biggest undersea anomalies to hit the paranormal
scene.

Cathie started the ball rolling with his interesting theories,
one of which is that the 'reciprocal of the speed of light' is
the dimensionless number 144!

Anyone who can get past that (instead of 1/299,000th of a second
per kilometer) should have no problem accepting his thesis that
the Eltanin Antenna is nothing less than one 'grid pole' of a
global grid of great circles, of such influence that atomic
bombs can only detonate at certain geomentric locations!

Try this on .. (scientists: guard your lunch.)

http://ascension2000.com/Convergence/9915.html

Here is another version, authored by Cathie himself:

http://www.whale.to/m/cathie.html

(complete with diagrams.)

Others expanded on Cathie's theories. This site speculates on
'magnetic ley lines', with no apparent understanding of what
those simple British footpaths actually were ..

http://hometown.aol.com/codeufo/eltanin.html

The numerology page below gives a nice map of the wrong
location:

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/eltanin_loc.html

(What does that to do the Global Grid?)

A Google search for 'Eltanin Antenna' brings up hundreds of web
pages. Add the word 'sponge' and you will see few indeed.

Regarding these grids etc., somebody wrote this on an email
blog: " .. yet_another_decimal harmonic of the 787873.524
generic Volume of a Sphere !!! " [ Exclamation points in the
original. -LH ]

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/MetPhys/99LLelectrons.html

I wrote to the guy, giving advance notice of my new Eltanin web
page. The response to this courtesy was:

"I remember you. I had some run-ins with you on the Internet
several years ago. You are a DEBUNKER Extraordinaire, Larry. At
least, it certainly appears that you are still into debunkery
and the spreading of disinformation. A "sponge". Yeah. Right. Do
NOT email me again.  -- MLM "

- - -

That's right. The Eltanin 'Antenna' is a sponge!

20 years of mapping UFO sightings, and I am a 'debunker'.

The matter re-emerged as a flashback in UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8,
Number 38 October 8, 2003 and I asking around about it.

Tom DeMary of Texas clearly deserves the credit for solving this
mystery.

Tom contacted a marine biologist who was on the Eltanin! That
scientist knew exactly what he was inquiring about, and referred
him to a published reference containing both the Eltanin photo
and a historical drawing of the sponge.

Tom actually found that rare book in the library of the
University of Texas in Austin. He scanned the telling images and
refs now on this web page: Don't miss it ..

http://www.larryhatch.net/ELTANIN.html

Please pay particular attention to the 1888 drawing made of
Cladorhiza, a weird carnivorous but Earthly sponge, found in
deep Antarctic waters, with precisely the same morphology as the
'Eltanin Antenna', and no connection whatever to UFOs, atomic
bombs, new-age, crop circles, cults, Cydonia or amateur
numerology. I can only guess what the reaction to my new web
page will be.

Credit goes to Tom DeMary, Carl Feindt with his Water UFO
website, Peter Hassall who tediously quoted the original New
Zealand newspaper account, and myself if only for being such a
pest. Henk Hinefelaar saved the original clipping and Murray
Bott preserved it. That clipping affirmed the date, and provided
the previously unknown time of day. Full copy of that is a link
on my same web page above.

Please feel free to re-post this message on other Lists, I only
subscribe to two or three.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Oct > Oct 23

                       Re: A little Question - Wenger

From: Eric Wenger <wenger@uisoftware.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:41:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: A little Question - Wenger


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:18:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:50:17 -0700
>>Subject: Re: A little Question

>>That is a reasonable hypothesis, yes. Lets say UFOs do show
>>themselves now and then, to acclimatize us to their presence.

>>Would standard sightings (fly-bys, the occasional blurry photo
>>etc.) be enough? Or, does is make more sense to put on a
>>fireworks display over Phoenix, Arizona on the same night as a
>>military exercise with lots of flares?

>>It is my personal prejudice after cataloguing over 18,100
>>sightings, that they would prefer to remain unproved, and as
>>little noticed as possible.

>Larry,

>Unproved, yes (unless we can make all the accumulated evidence
>convincing). But "little noticed"? I don't think so. All those
>thousands of UFO pacings of aircraft and cars were not attempts
>to be unnoticed!

>However, to be both unproved and noticed (but not noticed by
>society as a whole) requires a careful balance on the part of
>the UFO intelligences.


The obsession to have physical and convincing proof is
understandable but I suspect it won't matter in the slightest.

No matter how much evidence we'll have - and we have a lot
already - there will still be doubts and deep denial about the
matter. Whatever they do, I'm sure the aliens can keep on
without too much fear of being recognized as such.

The problem is not a physical issue but philosophical. As was
truly said in the 'American Beauty' movie: never underestimate
the power of denial .

We have now sightings in the hundreds of thousands, well
documented abduction cases in the thousands - not to mention
implants and physical traces, but we still refuse, collectively,
to accept the reality of aliens, using extremely weak arguments
like "they can't possibly travel to us", or "life is too rare in
the universe", or "we have a special place in the creation".

In a way Ufologists should spend as much time educating the
public in science and philosophy than trying to find the
undeniable proof that would settle the issue. Look how much
evidence we have now about global warming and how reluctant the
economic and political power is to acknowledge it.

As a society we refute the reality of aliens not because we have
no proof, but because our self-proclamed position of the most
important species in the universe will be greatly challenged by
it. A cosmic view, where we might end up to be an arrogant but
pretty primitive civilization among older and wiser (lets hope)
ones, is a hard sell.

How much proof did Giordano Bruno or Copernic to convince the
inquisition about the true nature of the solar system? The
clerics were looking in the bible. No amount of evidence would
have convinced them.

Eric Wenger







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   Oct > Oct 23

                              How Many Crashes?

From: Sergej Dubrovin <dubrovinsergej@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:19:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:03:51 -0400
Subject: How Many Crashes?


Hi, All,

Is anybody able to answer on simple/complex question?:

How mmany saucer crashes were there in 1947, in New-Mexico?
1 or 2 (I mean Corona and Socorro)?


S. Dubrovin








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                       Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:37:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:15:04 -0400
Subject: Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Hatch


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: UMMO-Like Cylinder

>List,

>A couple months ago I received an email by a person calling
>himself Pavel, who claimed to have found a strange object buried
>in the woods near his home in Perm, Russia. According to Pavel,
>the object had been ejected from a UFO. During my subsequent
>correspondence with him, Pavel rejected my suggestion to take
>the mystery object to a properly equipped lab for analysis and,
>inexplicably, decided to send the artifact to me via
>international post. I agreed, wondering what exactly I was
>getting into. Pavel had described the object's anomalous
>physical characteristics: the Braille-like figure had supposedly
>changed by itself and the cylinder's metallic surface would grow
>hot after being touched with no evident mechanical cause. These
>and other properties apparently worried him that the object's
>original owners would return for it, possibly endangering his
>family.

>I shortly received an email from Pavel claiming that overseas
>shipping was more expensive than he had expected and requesting
>me to send money to assist in the artifact's delivery. I
>declined and email from "Pavel" immediately ceased. From the
>beginning, I had realized that the possibility of my being
>hoaxed was very real, and Pavel's request for funds seemed to
>cinch the matter. But I had become interested in the cylinder's
>basic resemblance to similar objects associated with the
>infamous UMMO hoax (see Jacques Vallee's "Revelations: Alien
>Contact and Human Deception"). Even the "Z"-shaped glyph on the
>object's underside bore a vague resemblance to UMMO's trademark
>stylized "H." Was Pavel operating (perhaps unknowingly) as an
>agent for a Russian offshoot of the ostensibly defunct UMMO
>cult?

>To see Pavel's drawing of the cylinder, see:

>http://www.mactonnies.com/saucers.html

>Has anyone on the list received similar correspondence?

>=====
>>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

>Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

>Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)

Hello Mac:

I checked your site, but could not find the drawing. Your piece
on Pavel says essentially the same as the above.

No, I hadn't heard of this particular scam, but its clever if
transparent. Except for the finer details, its not really new
either. If Pavel can get on the internet, he can photograph
and/or scan an image. His refusal to seek out scientific opinion
or verification speaks volumes.

Any connection to the old UMMO biz is a dead giveaway of course,
but that won't stop others from falling victim. When the
mysterious parcel fails to arrive, the pigeons will suspect
government conspirators. 'Pavel', if that's his name, will
simply vanish like a dead hotmail address.

Its good you mention it on the list for those reasons if nothing
else.


Best

- Larry Hatch







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   Oct > Oct 23

                Re: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:31:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:48:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell


>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:28:48 -0800
>Subject: Cecil Adams & Paul Davids Debate Roswell Incident

>This cross-post was sent to me and I am posting it for
>responses. It is amazing that Cecil Adams is so convinced by the
>Mogul hypothesis.

>Cecil Adams and Paul Davids debate the Roswell Incident

>Subject: Letter from Roswell Producer
>Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:20:41 GMT
>From: videodog@cybergate.com (Joe Thor)
>Organization: Cybergate Information Services
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors, alt.conspiracy
>Producer of Roswell UFO movie responds to Cecil
>From sjf36@aol.com (SJF 36)
>Organization America Online, Inc.
>(1-800-827-6364)
>Date 3 Jul 1996 09:16:07 -0400 Newsgroups
>alt.fan.cecil-adams Message-ID <4rdrqn$5a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

>(NOTE: This is a cross-post from "Cecil's Junk Drawer" in The
>Straight Dope site on America Online. -D)

>[The Straight Dope column to which Paul Davids refers below can
>be found in the "Recent Columns" section.] Dear Mr. Adams:
>Regarding your column on the Roswell UFO Incident, May 31, 1996,
>I was Executive Producer and Co-writer of the movie mentioned in
>the letter to you, called "Roswell" starring Kyle MacLachlan and
>Martin Sheen. I have also produced a commercial video ("Reply to
>the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident") which contradicts
>everything you wrote, most of which you collected from Phil
>Klass, a now well-past-the-age-of-retirement debunker who has
>never even passed muster as a dispassionate skeptic and who is
>reviled by everyone I know as a disingenuous and intellectually
>dishonest writer on UFO's who's followed a slash-and-burn agenda
>on every UFO case for decades, while enjoying a cozy
>relationship with the defense establishment during his career as
>an editor for an aviation magazine. He should have stuck to his
>promise in OMNI magazine to retire from writing about UFO's five
>years ago and saved me the hour or so it's taken me to draft
>this letter.

>Your Straight Dope on the Roswell Incident is uninformed
>malarky, as far as I'm concerned, after nearly ten years of
>examining this case and after passionately fighting through four
>years of rejections to finally get the movie "Roswell" made. I
>fought for one reason -- which had nothing to do with
>entrepreneurship or fostering a cottage industry. I wanted the
>truth to get out there, and it has, and here are the known facts
>which your readers -- and you -- deserve to read: The Government
>Accounting Office (the GAO) recently reported that the military
>documents that could have explained the Roswell Incident
>(outgoing messages from the commanding officer and others at the
>Roswell Army Air Field 1947) were destroyed without proper
>authorization decades ago. The Air Force never fessed up to that
>in their 1994 report. Instead, they wrote a 22 page report with
>about 1,000 pages of virtually worthless "supporting materials"
>that have no provable connection to the Roswell Incident
>whatsoever.

<snip>

Cecil "News for Dopes" Adams reminds me of the uneducated,
shallow, dimwitted and irresponsible Larry Vaughn, Mayor of
Amity in the movie "Jaws", when he responds to the shark expert
Matt Hooper after the latter's warning of a dangerous,
territorial, Great White rogue shark.

"Love ta prove that, wouldn't ch'ya... Gitch yer name in
National Geographic...", says the Amity Mayor smugly, confident
that he's put down this rich-kid intellectual with words so
humiliating that Hooper would just have to stomp off and fret
for a week.

Mayor Larry "A Fish Injured A Bather" Vaughn is the one wearing
the sport coat emblazoned with a garrish pattern of ships
anchors, although I don't know if Spielberg did that for its
possible symbolism of foot-dragging and deeply depressing
intellectual inertia, or not.


Dave Morton









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   Oct > Oct 23

             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:40:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:55:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Connors


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:06:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:33:48 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

<snip>

>Come on, John. Give it a rest.

>Jerry Clark

Well, Jerry, I was going to jump in and defend Mr. Rimmer, then
I realized several things... first, in the record of Ufology,
his stylus appears to have jumped a track. Then it was clear to
me that:

I've never met Mr. Rimmer, so therefore I'll have to assume he
doesn't exist, using the standard Pelicanist thought processes.

Of course I've read many posts to UFO Updates, allegedly from
Mr. Rimmer, but I see no definitive proof that a Mr. Rimmer did,
in fact, make the posts. How do we know these drivelings are not
from Mon-Ka or Sol-tec or that Rimmer is human?

Yes, I have an audio-recording of Mr. Rimmer allegedly giving
pelicanist propaganda to the UK masses, but again this voice
could be any Tom, Dick or Harry and not Mr. Rimmer.

So, my conclusions are this:

I've never met John Rimmer or anyone who definitively said they
knew him. I have a tape of a voice supposedly of a guy named
Rimmer, but a tape isn't proof, because I've never met John
Rimmer and only heard 'his' voice. Personally, I think he's a
figment of our imaginations.

Therefore, John Rimmer doesn't exist. You do exist, Jerry...
I've gaffed a few brews with ya over the years and even seen you
while I was sober.


Wendy Connors








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

                         Re: UFOs & NORAD - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:19:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:30:34 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs & NORAD - Lehmberg


>From: Bob Huff <bob@arioch.us>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: UFOs & NORAD

>Met with a former AF CAPT who served at Cheyenne mountain in the
>1980's.

>One of his duties involved working with a special section that
>exploited NORAD's sensors in unexpected ways - for example, DSP
>satellites tracking movement of aircraft as opposed to solely
>detecting missile launch.

>He said they detected a number of unidentified craft that moved
>at astounding speeds. He recalled one radar 'painted' target
>that moved 500 miles virtually instantaneously.

>While in the group, he also heard mentioned of MJ-12 but had no
>specific information on the group.

>Interestingly, all targets were labeled with some explanation.
>Reporting UFOs was not allowed.


From: Alfred's Odd Observation #24 (September 23, 2002)

This is becoming bothersome. It's like a ufological "silent
spring," out there for me. The inexplicable dearth of strangely
moving objects in the night sky is that, unsettlingly, peculiar.
Where do they go? Where DO they go?

Truly, they ARE conspicuous in their absence, and (as we can all
extrapolate and I paraphrase!) evidence of absence (my own) is
NOT absence of evidence (sic). Where ARE all the objects that
the stridently pompous skeptibunky has said SHOULD be up there.
The satellites, stations, and shuttles -- the birds, bolides and
boosters... are not to be found at all considering the frequency
with which I used to see *them*, and which the aforementioned
skeptibunky always maintained they were...

Where do they go? If what I am seeing is the prosaic mundane,
where does the "prosaic mundane" go?  They ARE out there, of
course. To much about them has been chiseled in stone, penned in
ancient ink and pushed into old paint for them to be anything
BUT real.  Indeed, Jacques Vallee (among significant others) has
written extensively and convincingly about them.  Many years ago
now, he even told us (_this_ writer anyway) what they've come to
be called.

...Fastwalkers...

That's a word that just drips incongruity and high strangeness,
isn't it?

"Fastwalker" is a term NORAD (North American Air Defense
Command) invented to categorize objects that approach from
space, enter our atmosphere, maneuver strangely about, and then
leave the atmosphere again in a manner that is... not consistent
with the aforementioned boosters, birds, and bolides!  It is a
word also used to describe trans-lunar phenomena (tlp's):
anomalous objects with the particularly peculiar flavor of
*things* ufological... moving quickly across the face of the
full moon and filmed through quality telescopes on Earth... or
on shuttle flights... or on radar screens...

The Air Force NORAD facility, it has been convincingly reported,
observes these "fastwalkers" from its subterranean facility deep
inside Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado, and tracks a rough average
of 500 of them (UFOs for the uninitiated) each YEAR as they
enter the Earth's atmosphere from deep space, maneuver around,
and then leave again. This is not a fiction. It corroborates a
similar report from AeroJet General engineers Lee Graham and Ron
Regehr, who have revealed to the well respected UFO researcher
Don Ecker documents indicating that AeroJet's DSP satellite
system, alone, routinely detects UFOs flying into Earth's
atmosphere from deep space... up to two to three times per
month.

But these ironically well cited stories can be dismissed as
fatuous fluff from Philip's fabled foggy fringe of facile
fools... until one stumbles, quite inadvertently (you
understand), upon corroborating evidence from an unlikely source
in an unlikely place and at an unlikely time.  MY corroborating
evidence was picked up like a winning lottery ticket found in
the commode stall of a Baptist Church lavatory...

Here are the details.

As a function of my long military experience at Fort Rucker,
Alabama, I have a few enjoyable privileges left that come as a
result of it.  One of these privileges is an invitation to the
annual "October Fest" that the German aviation Officers put on
every year (towards the end of September, oddly), for their
American allies, et al.  At this fest (gonzo party!) there is
polka music, traditional German fest fare, and the best beer in
the known universe (imported deliciously unpasteurized (YUM!)
from the genuine breweries of the Fatherland. FREE! Life is
indeed GOOD at these (by invitation only) Teutonic soirees...
but I digress...

Towards the midpoint of the party my wife and I sat down at a
table with a woman she knew from the Fort Rucker German club.
The conversation got very lively, all the male participants were
abundantly sloshed and feeling expansive while expressing
themselves similarly with all guards well down. The females
graciously indulged us that -- (given how messy we are to both
tolerate AND clean up after... after an abundant sloshing ...)
anyway...

One of the participants at this little ad hoc collection of
retired and active duty aviation officers was a very senior Army
lieutenant colonel who was just coming from a very interesting,
on topic, and unusual military assignment.  He was a senior Army
liaison officer to the Airforce's facility at Cheyenne mountain,
NORAD, mentioned earlier. I sobered up pretty fast.

"How about those fastwalkers," I asked him in a lull of his
oration regarding NORAD.  The broad smile came off his face like
I'd slapped him. UFOs ARE serious business, it seems.

"NORAD is not set up to see things like that," he said with a
focused and too narrow tightness.  "Like... see what exactly"? I
asked with an evil grin.

"That's classified," he said frostily, all expansiveness in
retreat and guards coming up like fists. The other guys and
their wives noticed the frost and fell silent. What's the
matter? Someone asked.  The good colonel just gave me an
indication how weird things really are... without violating any
security oaths, I thought to myself, but allowed, OUT loud, to
the beleaguered colonel that I didn't mean to put him on the
spot about security issues, just that I found the subject very
interesting myself (and shouldn't everyone?). The conversation
went (too gratefully) back to party talk, and the colonel and
his wife were the first to leave.

Does anyone else see the veiled admission here? Does anyone else
see the incongruity of the exchange between the colonel and I?
Why the quick frost; why the terse (and blundering) reminder of
top level classification; why WAS he so put off? Maybe if he
told me he'd have to kill me, not as funny as it sounds, and
what's up with THAT?

Fastwalker... It's just a word, isn't it? That fascination of
facile fools mentioned earlier? Be that as it may, it was a word
that one very slightly ambushed colonel knew and apparently
knew, very well.  It was also a word that held a lot of jaw
clenching import for him -- forgetting that it was enough of a
word for one stranger to be reflexively terse, tensed up and
tight-mouthed with another. It was certainly enough of a word to
inject ill will into the encounter -- when seconds earlier good
will flowed from fountains and a good time was being had by all!
 Perhaps it's _more_ than just a word at our cultural
denouement. Nest ce' pas?

As regards the absence of my own observed fastwalkers?  They've
been absent for so long now that I could begin to wonder if I
had ever seen them at all... but that I can review the previous
twenty-four pieces in this series (you're presently reading) for
evidence (and a personal record) of something indeed seen in
starry skies all over North America, points north AND south, and
overseas. But for this series I wouldn't (couldn't!) be so sure.
They've been veritably squeegeed from the after-midnight sky
THAT well, of late.

So I did see something, my testimony is a matter of public
record, and "fastwalker" IS a real word... indirectly, but
convincingly confirmed by one of the *players*. UFOs are real.

That's enough. Read on!



Lehmberg@snowhill.com



EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 23

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:13:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:46:44 -0400
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:08:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:33:30 +0100
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>>David, I think there is a fatal flaw in your assumption that the
>>"cables" I see associated with a piece of beam debris are in
>>fact the twine associated with the "envelope" material. The flaw
>>being that when the debris is moved between photographs my
>>"cables" stay associated with their beam debris while the
>>envelope material is completely moved and re-arranged and any
>>"twine" associated with this material would therefore move too.
>>Like I've said the "cables" remain in place relative to the
>>material.

>>This is observed in the two images Marcel Right and Newton, by
>>using the chairs and knot marking in Ramey's floor you can see
>>that the debris on the paper has been moved some 6" to the right
>>and also forward by maybe the same amount. Now the debris on the
>>paper you would not expect to move relative to each other, you
>>would after all just drag the paper en-mass.

>I see no indication that the balloon material (Neil's "envelope"
>material) has been signficantly moved between these two photos.
>In fact, most of the right side of the balloon is concealed in
>the Marcel Right photo by the foil triangle being held in the
>air by Marcel. And the left side of the balloon is concealed in
>the Newton photo by the triangle and Newton's leg. In the Marcel
>photo, only the very right edge of the balloon can be seen
>peeking out under a stick, and this is where the cord in
>question is as well, visibly tied on to the balloon neck at this
>point. This is also where the right pointed end of the balloon
>envelope ends in the Newton photo, which is clearly visible.

>Nor is there any indication that the paper on the floor has been
>moved. The paper runs diagonally. to the rug stripes and rug
>edge and goes off the rug near where the cord in question is. An
>excellent reference point is the overlapping paper seam, which
>intersects the rug edge at about the same point that the paper
>goes off the rug. Behind that a little to the left is a knothole
>along a darkened line in the floor, clearly visible in the
>Newton photo, just visible under Marcel's left shoe. The paper
>seam at the edge has not moved relative to the knothole. Thus
>the paper has not been moved.

>Using the reference point and counting rug stripes to the left,
>there also doesn't seem to be any signficant movement to the
>front looping part of the cord visible in both pictures, and the
>right edge of the balloon also seems to be the about the same
>position.

>As to the debris on the paper, some has been moved, some has
>not. The main differences are the large foil triangle in all the
>photos that Marcel and Newton are holding in different places
>and another stick/foil piece that Newton is now holding in his
>right hand instead of lying on the paper and rug in the other
>photos.
>
>Smaller debris near the paper seem has barely shifted, certainly
>nothing like the 6-9" he claims.

>His other claim that debris pieces would not be expected to move
>relative to each other but would be moved en masse is silly.
>Relative movement is as simple as picking up a piece and putting
>it somewhere else, or brushing up against a piece with a shoe.
>These weren't boulders; they were extremely lightweight debris
>like aluminum foil, and it doesn't take much to move them
>around.

>_But_ the "envelope" fabric _is_ _not_ on the paper, but it too
>is moved and it is apparently loose fabric of some sort or
>rubber depending on your point of view, and it's flexable and
>floppy. _If_ it did have twine attached to it as you maintain,
>what are the odds of getting the location of said twine in just
>the same position relative to the other debris after just
>lifting and moving this flexable material even this 6"-9"
>inches??.

>This, I'm sorry, to say, is just Neil's imagination running wild
>again. The cord hasn't significantly shifted positions relative
>to fixed reference points (knothole, rug edge, and paper seam),
>nor has most of the other debris on the paper near there, and
>where he gets some major shift in the balloon position is beyond
>me, unless he has x-ray vision. The right visible side of the
>balloon is where the cord is also seen, and I don't see any
>major changes here either.

David,

I apologize for taking some time in responding to this post, I've
been laid up with a virus(biological type) for the last 3-4 days
and didn't exactly feel in the mood.

But let's see what the actual images show.

Prior to catching my bug, I put together an image that goes some
way in support of my claim, and here I _do_ owe you an apology.
When checking in the process of putting this image together, I
concede the paper does not move 6-9 inches. It's more like 2-3
inches but the "balloon envelope" material _does_ move, check
the image at the URL below. This is an animated gif image and
should display a 1 sec flashing overlay of the relevant part of
Marcel Right over the Newton image using the "torn" paper and
carpet stripes as a fixed reference point, these are marked in
white.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.morris717/mrclrt-newton-animation.gif

View this image in your web browser. If you download it to view
in another image package make sure it supports animated gifs,
most packages don't. If you have PaintShop you can use it's
AnimationShop utility.

>>What's
>>more in between these two reference pictures there is evidence
>>that a feature seen on the envelope material far to the left of
>>the "cables" feature in the Marcel Right image appears to it's
>>right in the Newton image, indicating the envelope material,
>>whatever it is, has been radically move round between these two
>>pictures _yet_ the "cables" feature appears to be still in an
>>identical position relative to the associated beam material
>>after all this movement. Hence my belief that the "cable"
>>material is probably not associated with "balloon" twine, the
>>balloon gets moved round yet it's alleged attached "twine" stays
>>where it is.
>
>Even if Neil is right about some feature on the _left_ side of
>the balloon shifting beween pictures, the cord is over on the
>_right_ side. Why does the right side of a floppy, flexible
>balloon necessarily "care" what's going on over the left side? I
>see no indication of any significant movement on the right side
>of the balloon or in the position of the cord.

>This is another of Neil's "so what?" arguments that don't make
>any sense and have no point. What it really amounts to is a
>mindset that the debris just _has_ to be anomalous.

This feature is also shown in the image as two enlarged insets.
They show on the left, a feature I called "the tassel". This is
_not_ string or twine, but clearly a narrow flat strip of
material towards the end of which is a metallic looking "blob",
a bit like a button or popper fastener. The right inset marked
A' shows what could be this _same_ feature but seen in the
Newton image. The point being that if this is the same feature
it and it's material has been moved a couple of feet to the
right between pictures and indicating the balloon material has
been disturbed. This is supported in the animated gif. If you
check the left most carpet marker and look at the carpet just
below this you can see that the black material seen in the
Newton image is _not_ there in the Marcel Right flashing
overlay.

As for the debris with what could be cables, in the animation
you can see this does move, in my corrected estimation at least
a couple of inches to the right and forward, and you can see the
"cables" move consistently with the debris, where as the
"balloon" debris appears and disappears.

>A string
>can't just be a string tied to the neck of the balloon. If
>someone like me says that's all it is, then some convoluted
>argument gets dreamt up that somehow is supposed to show that I
>am wrong. Thus we get all these imaginary large shifts of the
>balloon that supposedly dissociate it from the string. Voila--
>it's no longer a string tied to a balloon, it's something else
>very mysterious and anomalous. Neil needs to look at his own hi-
>res scan of the Marcel photo where the cord/string/twine is very
>clearly attached to the end of the balloon.

The point here is that the item I point out is clearly _not_
string or twine. As far as I'm aware the std neoprene balloons
in use then  _did_  _not_  have anything like this feature.
And unlike you David, I just can't dismiss and/or ignore this. For
the debris to be accepted as balloon/ML307 debris the said debris
_has_ to be _within_ the parameters of such debris. This and other
items visible within the debris are _not_, and once the material
steps outside the specifications for either a neoprene balloon or
the ML307(*) radar target they cease to be acceptable simply as
such, and the debris becomes anomalous.

>>>However, Mack Brazel claimed not to find any string to support
>>>the "foil and sticks" object he found, yet there it is, plain as
>>>day in the photos (once you know where to look for it). It
>>>would have been rather hard for him to miss. This is yet
>>>another indication that what was in Ramey's office had nothing
>>>at all to do with what Brazel really found and Brazel's story
>>>was just a put-up job.
>
>>>Ramey's early "hexagon" description, however, is the real
>>>smoking gun of a prearranged RAWIN cover story. Only an intact
>>>RAWIN might ever resemble a hexagon. The torn-up radar target
>>>in his office would never generate such a description.
>
>>I don't think there's anything strange in this, the debris was
>>foil like, radar targets used foil, the std radar target at the
>>time was the ML307, assembled I guess you could say it looked
>>hexagonal or at least 6 pointed. And if, as the ST photo's
>>indicate FWAAF was launching and tracking these by radar, it
>>would be an obvious initial assumption to jump to that the
>>debris might be the remains of one of these targets.

>Well, now Neil is backpedaling and contradicting himself. The
>main point is you can't describe the object as "hexagonal"
>without already knowing exactly what it is.

>Neil has been trying to make a Federal case out of a Reuters'
>quote that none of Ramey's men recognized it as an Army type
>balloon. But a rawin _is_ Army balloon equipment, developed
>specifically for the Army weather services during WWII. You
>can't think or even guess it might be an ML307 rawin and not
>know that it was also an Army weather device.

>More importantly, you can't deduce a "hexagonal" shape by
>looking at torn-up debris. Calling a rawin "hexagonal" would
>only be done by somebody highly familiar with intact, assembled
>rawins. Further these might only look "hexagonal" if viewed from
>a distance and viewed directly from the bottom or top. Close up
>or viewing a little off to the side, and there is nothing
>"hexagonal" about them at all. Thus somebody who launched these
>devices and viewed them from underneath as they went up and
>soared out of sight might notice a hexagonal profile, but why
>would Ramey know about such things?

>So why does Ramey tell Major Kirton to describe the torn up
>object in his office as "hexagonal" while also saying that
>nobody recognized at as an Army device? The statements are
>contradictory. If somebody recognized it as a rawin and was also
>so highly familiar with rawins that they knew they might look
>hexagonal when intact, then why the cat and mouse game about the
>identity, and why the statement that nobody recognized it for
>what it was?

I don't see a problem here at all.....

1) The Debris arrives. First impression "Easy, it's a beat up
ML307 radar target and balloon, we use heaps of them down on the
field".

2) Ramey and Co check it out. They _know_ what an ML307 is and
looks like.

3) They discover to their surprise it's not.

4) Washington wakes up to what's happening. They need to tell
the press something to kill the story so they go with their
first hunch, it's an ML307 "hexagonal" "six pointed star" target
and it's balloon.

It seems a logical and simple enough scenario to me.


>>Yet they still came out with the two statements that a) after
>>checking with Wright Field it "HAD NOT BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF"
>>and b) "none of the men at this base can identify it as an army
>>type balloon". (The FBI teletype and the Reuters report)

>The Reuters' quote from Major Kirton (time unknown): "Before
>Brigadier General Ramey's broadcast, Major Edwin Kirton, duty
>officer at Eighth Air Force headquarters at Fort Worth, quoted
>him as saying 'it looks like a **hexagonal **object covered with
>tinfoil or other shining material suspended from a balloon of
>about twenty feet in diameter. It is possibly a weather balloon
>flown at the highest altitude but none of the army men at this
>base recognize it as an army type balloon.'"

>FBI quoting Kirton (6:17 p.m. CST telegram): "The disc is
>**hexagonal** in shape and was suspended from a balloon by
>cable, which balloon was approximately twenty feet in diameter.
>Further advised that the object found resembles a high altitude
>weather balloon with a radar reflector, but that telephonic
>conversation between their office and Wright Field had not born
>out this belief. Disc and balloon being transported to Wright
>Field by special plane for examination."

>The Reuters' statement has less detailed information and almost
>certainly preceded the FBI telegram.

Not only precedes the FBI teletype but also the Dallas Morning
News phone call with Kirton at 5.30pm. Kirton told them it was
all down to a weather balloon. He wouldn't then go on at a later
time to tell Reuters no one could identify it, would he.

>The same statements about
>the object _looking_ or being hexagonal in shape and suspended
>from a 20 foot balloon and being a high altitude weather balloon
>appears in both. But Kirton is vague about the identity to
>Reuters--it is possibly a weather balloon, and nothing about a
>radar target. The FBI telegram then adds they were "further
>advised" about it resembling a radar reflector, but Wright Field
>disageed.

>Neil seems to be trying to argue (but never clearly makes the
>point) that this somehow demonstrates that the debris in Ramey's
>office couldn't be a radar target. His unstated assumption is
>that Wright Field had the debris in Ramey's office described to
>them. But how could he know that?

Simple, didn't Kirton tell the FBI they had been in phone
contact with Wright Field over the debris?.

>Maybe they had other debris
>described to them, stuff that couldn't be broken or torn or
>burned, like what Marcel described, and quite unlike a radar
>target, debris that had been removed from view and was somewhere
>else.

Maybe they had other debris? They did, yes, the rest of the
debris Marcel brought in the B29 from RAAF. But as Marcel
himself said, what he was photographed with was some of the less
interesting debris they had brought to FWAAF.

>To just about everybody else on planet Earth, the debris in the
>photos obviously is from a radar target. If Wright Field had
>this foil, paper, sticks, and a rubber balloon debris described
>to them, why would they disagree with the assessment that it
>was a rawin weather balloon?

David, a simple question for you. _If_ the debris in the Marcel
Right is that of a simple pilot balloon and ML307 target please
explain credibly what the feature I call "the tassel" is, and
what part did it play in the balloon/target's function?.

Because _if_ it is debris of an ML307/balloon I'm dambed if I
know.

We can't have any if's, perhaps, or maybe's here. If it was part
of any such assembly, details of it would exist in the plans and
specifications, I've not seen any so far. And this sentiment
goes for the host of other anomalies I've seen in the pictures.

Did Wright Field had some of these anomalies described to them
over the phone?.

It would account for their obvious interest in the debris.

>Or consider this. Maybe the FBI was just told all this to get
>them off Ramey's back. The LA Herald-Express evening edition on
>July 8 said that the FBI might be brought in to examine the
>object if it was still there. But if Wright Field disagreed and
>the debris was being shipped there, then there would be nothing
>for the FBI to examine in Fort Worth.

>Another way to put them off would be to say that FW would
>_request_ that Wright Field share the results with the
>Cincinatti FBI office but never promise them anything. As we now
>know from the GAO's search of FBI files in 1994, there is no
>evidence that the FBI was ever told anything afterwards.

>Thus the FBI got told the usual radar target story with the
>suggestion that maybe it was something else, was told there was
>no opportunity for them to examine it (because it needed to be
>shipped to Wright Field for further examination), and then got
>cut completely out of the loop.

But they weren't told _just_ the weather balloon story were
they?.

They were told the usual description and the suspicion FWAAF had
about what the debris resembled, true..

But they were also told that this belief had _not_ been bourne
out after FWAAF had been in contact with Wright Field by phone.

To me this plainly states that their initial belief the debris
was that of a weather balloon and target was _wrong_ and this
had been confirmed by checking with the boffins at Wright Field.

Is there any other way of reading this?.

But I do agree, the alleged request to have Wright Field inform
the local FBI office of the outcome was nothing more that a ploy
to stop the local Dallas FBI office investigating further, it
worked.


Neil

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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>?
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:56:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:49:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:03:54 -0300
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Jerry, Al,

>They ridicule and belittle, smirk and giggle when the witnesses
>report a sighting, then offer up some of the most ridiculous
>solutions for the sighting. And then they have the gall to ask
>why the witnesses want to remain anonymous.


Well said!

Ever since I started this thread to bring attention to a couple
sightings I've had to re-educate myself on not only what's wrong
with ufology but with mankind in general.

As soon as I recounted my sightings I got a small wave of emails
from so called professional journalists, ufologists, top of the line
research institutes and of course debunkers. Believe it or not 5 of
these so called experts made complete public jerks of themselves
by hurling accusations and innuendos and when I had to show them
how they goofed up by their own impatience, lack of fundamental
tools of procedure and data processing they all had to email me as
well as one talk show host apologies.

I've had my share of debunker, skeptic know-it-alls who's only tools
are half baked investigations and character assassination in lieu of
applying the basics of investigation taught in any decent high school.

I was on the Jeff Rense Program on Oct. 14 along with Mr. Peter
Davenport and we touched on this issue. That's why I'm in total
agreement with Don Ledger's observation posted above because
when I was in college and on the job at a newspaper we were taught
to look at the 'intention' of the data source and how that data source
exhibited themselves. Anger? Antagonism? Sarcasm? Then you'ld
bet your bottom dollar the data stream was a contaminated one
and that their intention was vindictive or at best counter intention.

Fear is the basis of this. Fear only. That's at least a leg up
on how to help the guy. It's healthy to examine any data but
when your intention is to discredit _before_ examination then
guess what conclusion YOU will convey after extrapolation of the
data that validates your own bent perspective. It goes both ways
with experiencers and non experiencers. That's why when I was on
Jeff's show I stayed far away from the 'ET' thing because at no
time during my sightings did I see a big sign on the side of the
crafts that said " We're From Outer Space".

History is so full of events of men and women presenting
discoveries that are scoffed at yet we now know to be true. It
often amused me when I was hosting live debates on AOL with our
old Parascope forum when debunkers would barge in and spout how
there's no scientific basis for ET visitations because everyone
knew that abductions were caused by Satan and his minions.

How's that for a scientific perspective?

One's emotional communication is indicitive of their true intent
and UFO witnesses have suffered far enough of this foolishness.
How many times have we seen witnesses who's character and
background would be accepted in a court of law to condemn a man
to death but because they happen to be a UFO witness suddenly
they've no credibility whatsoever? Yet we have heads of state
who believe in goblins, ghosts, demons, leprechauns and any
number of mythological characters and their word is good as
gold??? Sure is swell to know our nuclear arsenals are in the
hands of people who are afraid of mythological icons and at any
given moment may envelope our world in thermo nuclear mayhem
because Beelzebub's henchmen have raised their horned heads.

People worldwide claim to see the Virgin Mary in every object
from trees to vinyl siding and news crews flock to cover the
events. Yet here we have documents and witnesses still alive who
recount UFO crashes, abductions etc. and the only news people
who show up are journalists who would rather be back in the
office covering the latest movie star fashion trend or political
sex scandal. Shows you how our culture is so busy with it's head
up someone else's crotch it becomes the foremost thing on their
minds.

Ufologists must stop being on the defensive and go on the
offensive. The best tools are simple examination of
investigative procedure and law and human behavior. Did that
news source give the basic references? Then how did the story
hit? What knuckleheaded publisher allowed it to print knowing
the risk of liability? Since 1985 the news business has turned
into a joke akin to those British tabloids laden with the most
insidious gossip and character assassination. That's not news
it's nuisance.

Beat em' at their own game. Emphasize the importance of basic
research procedure and application. The fundamentals alone can
win the day for either believer or skeptic. Fair is fair. If a
newspaper or tabloid goes on the attack do the next best thing
and write their advertisers and complain about it. You'ld be
suprised how fast they'll knock it off when their advertisers
realize they may lose customers due to the irresponsible conduct
of those operating under the color of the First Amendment and
the Fourth Estate.

Say, I'm wondering how pervasive the intelligence communties are
within journalism and entertainment...


Best,

Greg









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                     October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan

From: Richard Dolan <keyhole@rochester.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:51:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:01:11 -0400
Subject: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan


A long overdue greeting to you.

Quite a lot to report since my last update before the summer.
Much of the summer was spent helping to prepare for the debut
issue of the new magazine, Phenomena, of which I'm proud to be a
senior editor and contributor. We cover alternative history,
UFOs, Earth mysteries, alternative health and science, the
paranormal, fringe areas and much more -- all in an attempt to
explore the nature of our reality and deal with cutting edge
issues.

Phenomena issue one is now out on the newsstands across the U.S.

My own article, "Government UFO Documents: Does the Military
Takes UFOs Seriously?" is a quick primer on eleven critically
important official UFO documents. It includes a discussion of:

1. The famous 1947 Twining Memo stating the objects were real
and not visionary or fictitious.

2. A January 31, 1949 FBI Memo stating the top secret nature of
the UFO phenomena.

3. A 1951 USAF Intelligence Report describing an up-close and
personal UFO encounter on July 9, 1951 by an F-51 pilot.

4. A well-known CIA Memo of December 2, 1952, addressed to the
Director of the CIA, stating that "sightings of unexplained
objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the
vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature
that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known
types of aerial vehicles."

5. A 1954 Maxwell Air Force Base Emergency Report, describing
the entry into restricted airspace of an unknown object.

6. A 1966 report from Minot Air Force Base, describing the
apparent landing of an exotic object near the base, which was
able to disrupt radio communications of the investigating strike
team.

7. Documents pertaining to the 1967 violation of air space at
Malmstrom Air Force Base, one of the most spectacular of all air
space violations, in which several ICBM missiles went off-line,
apparently due to the actions of an unidentified glowing object
hovering over the facility.

8. Documents pertaining to the 1975 violation of air space at
Wurthsmith Air Force Base, describing yet more spectacular
intrusions of restricted American air space by unknown and
exotic objects.

9. A 1976 DIA report about the failed attempted intercepts of a
UFO over Teheran. This remains one of the most vividly described
UFO encounters in Defense Department records.

10. The 1981 Memo by Colonel Charles Halt about the landing of
an unknown object outside the RAF Woodbridge NATO base in
Britain, yet another spectacular case.

11. The 1990 Lambrecht Report regarding UFOs over Belgium,
detailing the failed attempts of Belgian F-16s to intercept
unknown triangular objects able to attain unheard-of speeds and
aerial capabilities.

I encourage you to visit the magazine's website at:

http://www.phenomenamag.com/ ]http://www.phenomenamag.com/

You will notice one that the first issue also features an
article by Linda Howe regarding her research on an alleged
abduction in Brazil from 2002. This case, as many of you know,
has been hotly debated over the year, primarily via Internet
groups, with the word "hoax" widely distributed. Indeed, MUFON
recently sided with the hoax thesis earlier this summer.

Two things on this case. First, Phenomena as a publication is
not taking sides one way or the other. We felt it was important,
however, to allow Linda Howe to present her most comprehensive,
concise, and up-to-date analysis of this case for a broad
audience.

Secondly, the magazine's second issue will feature a response by
the most visible critic of this case, Brazilian UFO researcher
A. J. Gevaerd.

I myself have had some questions about the so-called "fake"
nature of the photographs, and wrote my own analysis of this on
my website. Barring extraordinary developments, this is the last
thing I intend to say on this case. If you're interested, click
here:

[ http://keyholepublishing.com/essays.htm
]http://keyholepublishing.com/essays.htm

I recently had the privilege to speak at the first Earth
Mysteries Conference, organized by Ericca Cordier and held in
Laughlin, Nevada. Additional planned speaking engagements will
be placed on my website in the near future; several are lined up
for 2004.

Finally, the Sci Fi channel will be airing a new UFO-related
documentary on Friday, October 24, discussing the very
interesting Kecksburg, Pennsylvania crash case of 1965. Of
course, the main expert for this case is Stan Gordon, who has
spent many years researching it. I was pleased to have been
interviewed earlier this year for this documentary, and will
also appear on it. For a text version of the official press
release, click here:

http://keyholepublishing.com/Kecksburg_press_release_september_2
9.htm

In addition to my work for Phenomena, research for Volume Two of
UFOs and the National Security State proceeds apace. A somewhat
slow pace at times, it is true, but still moving forward, not
backward.

Finally, I should mention that I will not be publishing the full
version of my current article on Government UFO Documents while
it is available on the newstands. I imagine it will become
available electronically at some point in the future, although I
don't yet know when.

In addition, I wrote a rather long article last summer on
conspiracy theories and conspiracies that has not been published
anywhere. A few people have read it, and I may make it available
at some point in the future, depending on where and whether it
gets published anywhere else. I confess I haven't aggressively
shopped it around yet, so we'll see what happens.

Best regards,


Rich Dolan

http://keyholepublishing.com

"The whole visible world is only an imperceptible atom in the
ample bosom of nature. No idea approaches it. We may enlarge our
conceptions beyond an imaginable space; we only produce atoms in
comparison with the reality of things."

-- Blaise Pascal


[] Attach070.htm






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                      Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:43:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:05:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Lehmberg


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: UMMO-Like Cylinder

>A couple months ago I received an email by a person calling
>himself Pavel, who claimed to have found a strange object buried
>in the woods near his home in Perm, Russia. According to Pavel,
>the object had been ejected from a UFO. During my subsequent
>correspondence with him, Pavel rejected my suggestion to take
>the mystery object to a properly equipped lab for analysis and,
>inexplicably, decided to send the artifact to me via
>international post. I agreed, wondering what exactly I was
>getting into. Pavel had described the object's anomalous
>physical characteristics: the Braille-like figure had supposedly
>changed by itself and the cylinder's metallic surface would grow
>hot after being touched with no evident mechanical cause. These
>and other properties apparently worried him that the object's
>original owners would return for it, possibly endangering his
>family.

>I shortly received an email from Pavel claiming that overseas
>shipping was more expensive than he had expected and requesting
>me to send money to assist in the artifact's delivery. I
>declined and email from "Pavel" immediately ceased. From the
>beginning, I had realized that the possibility of my being
>hoaxed was very real, and Pavel's request for funds seemed to
>cinch the matter. But I had become interested in the cylinder's
>basic resemblance to similar objects associated with the
>infamous UMMO hoax (see Jacques Vallee's "Revelations: Alien
>Contact and Human Deception"). Even the "Z"-shaped glyph on the
>object's underside bore a vague resemblance to UMMO's trademark
>stylized "H." Was Pavel operating (perhaps unknowingly) as an
>agent for a Russian offshoot of the ostensibly defunct UMMO
>cult?

>To see Pavel's drawing of the cylinder, see:

>http://www.mactonnies.com/saucers.html

>Has anyone on the List received similar correspondence?


I got one, answered his initial E-mail (giving him the addresses
of a few persons higher on the ufological food chain), and then
lateraled the affair to UFO UpDates, ignoring subsequent
E-mails.....

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:23:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:13:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:42:22 -0700
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:03:54 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:45:43 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

<snip>

>>>It seems pretty obvious to me, sir, that you don't really want
>>>even that "one" and would artfully dodge him too, were he
>>>provided to you. Your argument remains the more self-revealing.

>>They ridicule and belittle, smirk and giggle when the witnesses
>>report a sighting, then offer up some of the most ridiculous
>>solutions for the sighting. And then they have the gall to ask
>>why the witnesses want to remain anonymous.

>Amen! Having been a pro-pilot and knowing the ridicule,
>questioning, and general horrors that go with being a
>'Believer' (as opposed to a experiencer), why jepordize your
>career?

I'm not ridiculing anyone. I'm just asking for the reported
statement of one person, other that Barauna and his two friends,
who saw something unusual from the deck of the Almirante
Saldhana when 48 (or 150) other people were supposedly present.
Not an unreasonable request, surely?


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:37:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:16:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:13:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>They ridicule and belittle, smirk and giggle when the witnesses
>>report a sighting, then offer up some of the most ridiculous
>>solutions for the sighting. And then they have the gall to ask
>>why the witnesses want to remain anonymous.

>You know, Don... I've heard it said that pelicans are what
>happened to the dinosaurs... for a little smirk of my own.<g>

Yes, much easier to smirk, giggle and make silly comments about
pelicans, than answer any of the questions I ask, isn't it.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:49:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:22:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:06:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Patient and gentle listfolk:

<snip>

>Could it be that there's a simple reason - that such persons
>don't exist? Or that they have the same epistemological status
>as the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? Or that John, being a good
>pelicanist, doesn't think his own hypotheses have to answer to
>falsifiability, and that he can spin and speculate endlessly out
>of both whole cloth and any pickle whatever?

>Meanwhile, hilariously, John complains that there aren't
>_enough_ named positive witnesses, while simultaneously laboring
>to make us forget that he cannot name _one_ negative witness.
>It's like a baseball game in which the losing team, which has
>yet to score a run, insists that it is, in fact, winning because
>the other side has failed to score as many runs as the losers
>unilaterally decree it must.

But what if it's only the players on one side who claim to have
seen the runs scored?

>Where else would one encounter arguments as loopy as this,
>except in the high, thin atmosphere to which only pelicans can
>ascend?

>Does John's argument make any sense whatever to you? I didn't
>think so.

>It's not just that you're insulting our intelligence, which you
>certainly are. More to the point (to borrow a Rimmerism), you're
>demeaning your own.

>Come on, John. Give it a rest.

Remarkable how, despite his repeated announcements that the
Trindade Island affair is closed, he can't be bothered replying
to my specious arguments, he's got better things to do, etc.,
etc., etc., Jerry can never resist replying one more time to my
postings. Well, actaully I've got nothing better to do tha reply
to Jerry's painful attempts to justify the total absence of any
independent witnesses to the Trindade photographs (sad, I know,
but there you are), so this might go one for ever!

Of course, by mentioning 'pelicans', Jerry attempts to put this
discussion outside the realms of rational argument.

All I ask Jerry to explain is why, in a high-profile UFO case
involving photographs, considerable press coverage, and a great
eeal of investigation by:

>(a) government investigators
>(b) rival newspapers
>(c) ufologists
>(d) debunkers
>(e) or anybody else

is there absolutely no account of the events by anyone other
than two people who were friends of the photographer. I don't
think it's up to me to find the Easter-bunny-like "negative
witness", it's up to Jerry to unearth an actual witness. Isn't
that what happens in most other UFO cases?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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                      Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:20:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - Tonnies


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:37:54 -0700
>Subject: Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder

<snip>

>Hello Mac:

>I checked your site, but could not find the drawing. Your piece
>on Pavel says essentially the same as the above.

>No, I hadn't heard of this particular scam, but its clever if
>transparent. Except for the finer details, its not really new
>either. If Pavel can get on the internet, he can photograph
>and/or scan an image. His refusal to seek out scientific opinion
>or verification speaks volumes.

>Any connection to the old UMMO biz is a dead giveaway of course,
>but that won't stop others from falling victim. When the
>mysterious parcel fails to arrive, the pigeons will suspect
>government conspirators. 'Pavel', if that's his name, will simply
>vanish like a dead hotmail address.

>Its good you mention it on the list for those
>reasons if nothing else.

Larry, List,

I've since received several emails from parties who received
virtually identical email from "Pavel."  In retrospect it's
pretty obvious this was a scam to make money.

I don't know why you were unable to see the drawing; it's at:

http://www.mactonnies.com/saucers.html

If that doesn't work, try:

http://www.mactonnies.com/pavelobject.gif

Best,

=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)








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                          Re: Mind Control? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:49:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:25:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - White


Hi -

Apologies to Joe McGonagle and anyone else who would like an
ongoing dialogue concerning alternate theories for mind control.

After 23 years fighting this war, I've found that there are
three groups who submit alternate theories for effects isolated
from the whole:

1. Bright, intellectual folks who enjoy exercising their mental
   gifts, and,

2. People who seem to be afraid that mind control can be
   really happening, and wrap themselves in a cocoon of
   alternate theories so they feel comfortable, and,

3. People who seem to worship skepticism, and feel it is noble
   to rail against any information which isn't documented to
   the extent that no human being can possibly question it.

Our goal is to expose and stop the covert practice of either
involuntarily experimenting on, or destroying the lives of,
innocent citizens of all countries. To engage in point-by-point
debate with the perfectly well-meaning folks as listed above
does nothing to help us toward that goal. But point-by-point
debate _does_ soak up huge amounts of time, which those of us
who are actively working on the expose-and-stop campaign just
don't have.

If this matter weren't so serious, I might enjoy debating but
there are too many people suffering terribly, including MKULTRA
victims who are also now enrolled in current-day psycho-
electronic mind control, to take time for that.

This situation is not of my doing, Joe, so I hope you will
accept my apologies for not carrying on our debate further.


Eleanor White







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                        Toronto Premiere Of 'Touched'

From: Center for Psychology & Social Change <jbardavid@centerchange.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:34:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:37:54 -0400
Subject: Toronto Premiere Of 'Touched'


The documentary film about experiencers of alien contact,
'Touched' (www.touchedfilm.com), will be having its Canadian
premiere the first week of November in Toronto as part of the
Female Eye Film Festival.

You may have heard about TOUCHED earlier this year when it
premiered at Boston s Museum of Fine Arts and received positive
feedback from skeptics and experiencers alike an unheard of
accomplishment because this film is not an argument about
whether or not aliens are real, rather, it is an exploration of
human experience.

The film festival will be announcing ticket information and
venue details soon; see information below. We believe TOUCHED
will probably be shown on Saturday at or near 11am, on the
documentary screen of the festival, but check their site for the
final schedule.

Sincerely,

Will Bueche
Communications Dir.
Center for Psychology & Social Change
centerchange.org

TOUCHED film CANADIAN PREMIERE: Toronto, Ontario, Nov 20-23

Female Eye Film Festival
Nov. 20 - 23, 2003
Toronto, ON
Details TBA

The Female Eye Film Festival (FeFF) is a Toronto based
international independent women's film festival. The Female Eye
is Ontario's one and only annual women's film festival featuring
high caliber films in drama, comedy, sci-fi, action,
documentary, experimental, animation genres, and cutting edge
music videos. All directed by women.

Touched, produced and directed by Laurel Chiten, edited by
Sabrina Zanella-Foresi, featuring Dr. John Mack and
"experiencers" of alien contact, will have its Canadian premiere
at FeFF.

For more information on the film festival, visit
www.femaleeyefilmfestival.com

For more information about Touched, visit www.touchedfilm.com


Close Encounters with Laurel Chiten

An interview with filmmaker Laurel Chiten from Imagine Magazine,
Feb 03, www.imaginenews.com

One snowy Boston evening changed the course of things for
director Laurel Chiten. I feel like John Mack abducted me, she
laughs.

I don t know what was going on that night, I was being so goofy,
making everyone laugh. The snow prevented the film s main
character from introducing her film, THE JEW IN THE LOTUS. So
she arrived at the MFA, an impromptu comedienne, to take
hisplace. It was her sense of humor and heredge that prompted
John Mack to seek her out after the film. I didn t even know who
he was. He wanted me to make a film about alien abductions.

So who is John Mack? Though a professor of psychiatry at Harvard
and a Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer, his celebrity is
arguably more attached to his research on alien encounters than
more suitable subjects for a person of his ilk. Since publishing
the best selling book Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens in
1997 (and outing him as a presumed extraterrestrial believer on
shows like OPRAH and theTODAY SHOW), Mack grew frustrated, even
bored by the predictable questioning of whether accounts of
abductions were true or false. His next book on the subject,
Passport to the Cosmos (1999), was meant to move beyond the
question of if and to a question that he believes is more
relevant to earthly life what do alien abductions mean for us?

Chiten s immediate reaction to exploring the topic of alien
abduction was to push the project away. I knew absolutely
nothingabout the subject, and more importantly, I didn t care
about it. Her other films like TWITCH AND SHOUT and THE JEW IN
THE LOTUS were personal to her. When she finally started sifting
through the first-person accounts of missing time, bodily
probing, sperm extraction, impregnation, and apocalyptic
warnings, Chiten reacted like most first-time abductees: she was
frightened. She acknowledges that the topic called up her
deepest fears, fears she cannot necessarily name. I was emphatic
about not making this film, she reiterates. But Mack s
persistence led to an encounter at the Harvard faculty club,
where Chiten first heard experiencers (as they call themselves)
speak. She was struck by how sane the speakers appeared. One
woman reached out her hand to describe how it felt to be touched
by an alien . . . and she started to cry. Forget aliens, it was
sohuman to me, this longing to connect. It is the translation of
ostensibly inhuman experiences into unavoidably human terms that
Chiten explores in TOUCHED.

TOUCHED is Chiten s third documentary; she is both director and
producer. Forsomeone who never set out to be adirector, she s
developed an impressive niche. TWO IN TWENTY was her first
bigproject a five-episode dramatic satirical series, which has
since developed a cult following. She later directed a ten-part
video series based on Robin Casarjian sbook, House of Healing.
Would-be-directors may not want to hear Chiten s thoughts about
joining her ranks. Don t become a filmmaker unless you have to.
It is extremely hard work. And has she made money from her
films? Not really. Yet every time she engages a new subject, she
falls in love, only to revisit the stress and anxiety of
wondering if the film will ever be seen or appreciated once
completed. Since wrapping production on TOUCHED she admits to
being stretched a little thin. Fortunately, she surrounded
herself with a great crew: I attract people who are muchsmarter
than I am, they make me look really good. Perhaps too modest,
Chiten has had colleagues claim that it is her credibility as
afilmmaker that will get them through the door of seeing her
latest, potentially most controversial film. TOUCHED has been
unique for Chiten because of her collaboration with editor
Sabrina Zanella-Foresi and DP Andy Abrahams Wilson, who also
serve as coproducers. Zanella-Foresi s role expanded through the
course of production and Chiten is thrilled with the results.
Even with their camaraderie, the crew approached the subject
matter with differing philosophies. Let s just say I was Scully
and Andy was Mulder. We actually called each other that, shares
Chiten. Apparently Mulder was eager to experience his own UFO
ride.

One unexpected (and still highly confidential) occurrence
dramatically affected the film at its zero hour. Let s just say
something happened to a character that in Chiten s words had a
ripple effect on the entire film. She promises the newly
integrated material makes for an even more intense ending.

Chiten wishes the film could tour the world, with she and Mack
answering Q and A. Not that the film is about answers. But it
opens up questions about the reorganization and reevaluation of
strongly held beliefs about the cosmos, the divine,and the ever-
pressing need for human connection. Chiten calls TOUCHED a
launch pad for discussing thephenomenon of alien life and its
consequences on humans, experiencers or not: It talks about
people who have contact with these beings, whoever and whatever
they are. Its source remains a mystery and the implications of
this phenomenon are still unknown.

Chiten s next projects are in various stages of production. She
is working on FreedomBehind Bars , in collaboration with The
Lionheart Foundation, about a ten-day meditation retreat inside
a maximum-security prison in Alabama as well as Twisted about a
neurological disorder even more unknown than Tourette s
Syndrome. Chiten describes, like a TWITCH AND SHOUT 2. Both of
these have footage shot and she is looking for funding. Chiten
chalks up her chance meeting with Mack as serendipitous. But
when asked about how she chooses her next film project she says,
Most of the time I don tpick a project, they pick me. Maybe
TOUCHED will explain exactly who they are. Or maybe it s more
exhilarating not to know.

Erin Trahan is a freelance writer who frequently contributes to
Imagine Magazine. She is a member of the Board for Women in
Film/Video New England and lives in Jamaica Plain, MA.








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                  Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Kimball

From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:34:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:44:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy - Kimball


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:07:47 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

>>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:30:02 EDT
>>Subject: Re: UFOs: A Demonic Conspiracy

<snip>

>>While I agree that the statement 'There is not a single UFO
>>incident on record that cannot be explained as a demonic
>>deception or apparition' is a bit much, and certainly without an
>>evidential foundation, your comments in response ignore those
>>who engage in critical biblical studies in much the same way
>>that the mainstream media tends to lump all ufologists in with
>>the the 'wackos'. Generalities such as 'those who believe in
>>demons per se are a bit soft in the head to begin with' are
>>always dangerous, a double-edge sword that can easily be turned
>>around. This comes from one who 'believes' in both a Supreme
>>Being and UFOs, and doesn't see anything mutually exclusive
>>between them.

<snip>

>I always bristle at the term Believe in UFOs because it implies
>a religious connotation, as if we worship at the foot of some
>saucer-shaped icon on the second Thursday of each month, wave or
>flashlghts around and envoke the alien diety or something.

Hiya Don:

I use the term "believe" with reference to UFOs the same way I
would use it during a criminal trial where the prosecution had
convinced me, on the balance of probabilities, but not beyond a
reasonable doubt, that the accused was guilty. I would say "I
believe he's guilty, but I cannot accept it as a proven fact
upon which I can base a conviction."

I understand why folks in the UFO field might be touchy about
"believe", but I don't think it's a big deal - nor do I think
it's entirely inaccurate, at least in the context I use it. Then
again, I spent three hours driving through northern New Mexico
last March debating this same point with my soundman (who
insisted on calling me a "believer"), only from your point of
view. Go figure.

>And why weren't you at the conference? Your uncle was there.

Stan is everywhere (the "Ubiquitous Ufologist"?) I was on
vacation in the United States. All work and no play, etc. etc.


Best regards,

Paul Kimball








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                      Pine Bush NY UFOs And Paranormal

From: Vinny Polise <Pinebushufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:22:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:47:21 -0400
Subject: Pine Bush NY UFOs And Paranormal


List,

For years myself and others have researched the Lower Hudson
Valley, and just wanted to know if anyone has had any
experiences, photos, videos that they would like to share?

I recently finished my new website, I value your opinions and
would love for you all to visit the site.

Please check this out:

http://www.pinebushufo.com

I would like to hear from people in the area or those that have
been in the area... Email me at Pinebushufo@aol.com or
sightings@pinebushufo.com


Thanks

V.p







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                      Gray Intruders In The Apartment?

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:32:10 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:52:25 -0400
Subject: Gray Intruders In The Apartment?


Source: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel -

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/oct03/179292.asp

Oct. 22, 2003

Gray Intruders in the Apartment?
She ain't afraid of no aliens

If there's somethin' strange in your neighborhood, who you gonna
call?

Heidi Hollis!

Think I'm kidding? Listen.

Hollis is author of the UFO tell-all "The Secret War" and
founder of the UFO/paranormal discussion group UFO2U, which
meets on the third Saturday of each month at the East Library on
North Ave. She has, among a number of other things that might
seem difficult at first for a reasonable person to believe,
single-handedly chased eight aliens out of her apartment. Sort
of.

Here's what happened:

One night Hollis wakes up and hears some funny noises in her
apartment. She looks around and finds two aliens - they were
about 4 1/2 feet tall, gray, dome-headed, pencil-necked, slope-
shouldered, big black eyes - examining her bookshelf. There are
a couple more in the kitchen. There's two in the closet. Two
more go scampering into the the bathroom.

Hollis gives chase. She shoves open the bathroom door, knocking
one of the aliens to the floor. She grabs the other by the front
of its whatever and gives it a good shake. The poor thing starts
trembling like an Elvis impersonator. Hollis feels sorry for it.
She feels like maybe she should get it a cookie or something.

The one on the floor has got its arms up like it it expects
Hollis to stomp it to smithereens. It's one of those shape-
shifters, and it tries to trick Hollis by shifting into the
shape of her cousin.

It's a pathetic maneuver. The alien's idea of what Hollis'
cousin looks like is apparently based on an old photograph in
which Hollis' cousin is still a child, has an Afro and is
wearing a blue suit that Hollis' real cousin hasn't worn in
years.

The aliens regroup, and Hollis is rendered unconscious. She
wakes up in the morning, snug in her bed. The aliens are gone.

"Those sons of a gun," Hollis says she said.

Think that's funny? Listen.

You wouldn't think that was so funny, Hollis says, if you've
been abducted by unfriendly aliens that (for reasons I
personally can't fathom) have employed technologies beyond our
imagining to cross solar systems, if not galaxies, just to poke
a few probes into your private areas.

Hollis is quick to point out that, while the media seem to focus
on these negative encounters with aliens, not all
extraterrestrials are bad.

The world, she says, teems with other-worldly beings eager to
lend a helping hand, or whatever it is they may have at the end
of their arms, if they have arms.

It's a comforting thought.








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                           Roswell & Other Issues

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:54:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:55:34 -0400
Subject: Roswell & Other Issues


I think David Rudiak has covered the "debris in Ramey's office"
subject very thoroughly! Thank you for your hard work, David.
(And you're right: That radiator _is_ lower than the top of the
chairs in Ramey's office, no matter what someone else's reading
of the specs might be...).

Some of the further issues and questions for me are:

Roswell facts:

Were Walter Haut's news releases carbon copies - a minimum of 4
- or were they all originals, possibly different from each
other, creating some confusion, as Rudiak has mentioned as a
possibility, since the various stories carried by the media were
all slightly different? Can someone ask Haut this question as to
"carbon copies" versus "originals"? Mimeographed copies? Who
typed the news release? If they were all carbon copies or
mimeographed copies, they would most likely be identical.

This relates to "intent" on the part of Col. Blanchard et al, IE
the intent to deceive, or simply mistakes (or additional
information added) by the newspapers and wire services.

What was the source of the newswire "Blue Light" reference after
Haut's press release?

Has anyone ever tried to interview Gen. Ramey's wife or kids?
Other Ramey relatives?


Much broader issues:

Why does the official UFO coverup continue, and in fact, the
subject officially ridiculed to amplify the giggle factor,
making the government-created din sound more like a carnival
Laff House than a straight, simple denial? Doesn't the
government realize how stupid, silly, irrational and
untrustworthy it looks? Don't they care about the erosion of
support from their loyalty and tax bases?

Don't they care about what this does to our self esteem, our
sense of community, our pride in our country, our alienation
from ourselves and each other, etc, knowing that we're being
lied to and treated as children with low IQs, limited
experience, and a shallow curiosity? Without the truth, we are
diminished as human beings. (We can be grateful that Friedman,
Maccabee, Rudiak, etc, have courageously researched and exposed
as much of the truth as they could acquire).

What event would trigger a full disclosure from the government
(or "secret government)? Threats? Blackmail? Money? More power?
A Presidential order? A deathbed confession from Phil Klass?
Following the money, as Deepthroat suggested? Truth serum used
on certain people? A taxpayer's strike?

Do tax cuts and budget deficits have any impact on the funding
for the Secret Government?

What can we learn from Roswell beyond the known facts in terms
of alien agendas - at least, the agenda of those aliens?

Why didn't "rescue ships" arrive and at least retrieve the alien
bodies? If the craft had come from Earth, and other Earthly
craft were nearby, a rescue attempt of some sort would almost
certainly be made, just as would occur at sea per international
law.

Was the crashed saucer at Roswell on some kind of programmed
execution mission with alien prisoners aboard, such that the bad
guys would be killed by attracting lightning from an electrical
storm, but we would gain some technology from the debris?

It doesn't seem very plausible, but then, if their craft are
vulnerable to lightning strikes, why did they tempt fate by
flying into one? Why would they be so reckless?

If we have gained alien technology from crashed saucers, why
don't we ever use it militarily? Or have we?

Have the oil companies played a role at the highest levels by
surpressing alien technology? I loathe playing in the swamp (or
swamp gas) of "oil company conspiracy", but I think there is
such a thing, with billions of dollars at stake. Those billions
can buy a lot of "business interruption insurance" from many
quarters.


Dave Morton








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                    'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:54:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:05:35 -0400
Subject: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized


Hello all:

If you stitch the URL at bottom back together, you will find my
website (and the good work of Tom DeMary and Peter Hassall et.
al.) plagiarized on the Para-Normal.com site.

They took the 1888 drawings off my site, as well as the 1964 NZ
Herald account Peter dug up, and present it as if they found all
this themselves!

Not a word of credit to Tom, Peter or my website.

As somebody once said: "Imitation is the sincerest form of
Television". Most likely, Para-Normal.com were tipped off by the
Anomalist.com or the Jeff Rense website. Those two did give
credit with a link back.

Meanwhile, I'm starting to get a trickle of feedback from the
"I'll stay open-minded" crowd. More if anyone is interested.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = =

http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1902







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              Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:38:45 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:27:11 -0400
Subject: Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Gevaerd


>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole@rochester.rr.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:51:04 -0400
>Subject: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan

>A long overdue greeting to you.

<snip>

>Phenomena issue one is now out on the newsstands across the U.S.

>My own article, "Government UFO Documents: Does the Military
>Takes UFOs Seriously?" is a quick primer on eleven critically
>important official UFO documents.

<snip>

>I encourage you to visit the magazine's website at:

>http://www.phenomenamag.com/ ]http://www.phenomenamag.com/

>You will notice one that the first issue also features an
>article by Linda Howe regarding her research on an alleged
>abduction in Brazil from 2002. This case, as many of you know,
>has been hotly debated over the year, primarily via Internet
>groups, with the word "hoax" widely distributed. Indeed, MUFON
>recently sided with the hoax thesis earlier this summer.

>Two things on this case. First, Phenomena as a publication is
>not taking sides one way or the other. We felt it was important,
>however, to allow Linda Howe to present her most comprehensive,
>concise, and up-to-date analysis of this case for a broad
>audience.

>Secondly, the magazine's second issue will feature a response by
>the most visible critic of this case, Brazilian UFO researcher
>A. J. Gevaerd.

>I myself have had some questions about the so-called "fake"
>nature of the photographs, and wrote my own analysis of this on
>my website. Barring extraordinary developments, this is the last
>thing I intend to say on this case. If you're interested, click
>here:

>http://keyholepublishing.com/essays.htm
>http://keyholepublishing.com/essays.htm

<snip>

Dear Richard,

I have already privately expressed to you how sorry I am for
seeing the very first issue of Phenomena magazine bringing a
cover article about the most obvious hoax that we have in
Brazil. The is very unfortunate, as I have expressed to
Phenomena's editor in UK, Simon, as well. It is just like if I
have started a new nation-wide and international magazine in
Brazil covering the absurd Jonhattan Reed case as genuine or
giving to it full attention and cover calls. I believe this will
attrack some criticizm to Phenomena, although I sincerely wish
the best to the publication. Being an editor myself for 20
years, I know what it takes.

The problem, however, is much deeper than only publishing an
obvious hoax in the first issue with cover calls. I was informed
the over 55 thousand issues were printed and most of them sold
out. It means that, as of today, thousands of people in the USA
and other countries have had read the article written by Linda
Moulton Howe (who was flown to Brazil to investigate a case with
full expenses paid of by the person who is the subject of that
case, and who is more than interested in being supported by her)
and believe the case to be genuine. Thousand of people now
believe that the man -- who in Brazil we know as a certificate,
"ISO 14000 hoax" and a UFO cult leader -- is a genuine contactee
and a "ETs choosen", as he calls himself.

The natural result of such situation is that a lot of people
will have their attentions drawn to the hoaxer and his hoaxes,
but seeing them all as a real contact case. Thus, a lot of
people may decide to seek his "knowledge and wisdom" about space
and extraterrestrial matters. It happened exactly like this in
Brazil some 7 or 6 years ago, when some publications and even TV
networks naively (or not so much, in some cases) gave to this
man's history a lot of publicity, leeding people to believe that
he was genuine and then helping him to build and consolidade his
UFO cult, which has been as enormous source of money and
pleasure for him (and an enormours source of headache and
sadness to his thousand of ex-followers). His profitable
movement is almost dead now in Brazil (God's natural laws work,
so says a preacher friend of mine), as there is very few naive
people left to cheat. Then, he is trying other markets and USA
seems a very good one.

After realizing the damage that these media companies in Brazil
created, publicizing the hoaxer as a genuine thing, such
publications and TV networks tried hard to reverse the story by
showing new facts on the "contactee", incluing footage of him
faking his obvious tricks, witnesses of many people who
discovered that they have been deceived and spent lots of money
in the UFO cult etc. It was too late, however, as thousand of
people had already lost their money, properties, jobs, families,
friends etc, taking active part in the UFO cult. This have been
fully, comprehensively, detailled, meticulously documented,
investigated and published in several papers, magazines, UFO
publications etc in Brazil. If only Ms. Howe had bothered to
spend some more days in Brazil looking into some of that
evidence, she would certainly not accept the task of supporting
the hoaxer.

I am very sorry for this all. Ms. Howe have only looked into
alleged facts that she considered reasonably consistent to
explore and explored them in benefit of the hoax with such an
enthusiasm that I am really astonned to see. I always had great
admiration for this lady and I always considered her to be a
serious, objective researcher, who's done a great deal for
Ufology. Now, I am afraid, she reversed that oppinion not only
of mine but of many, many serious, objective UFO researchers in
the world, specially to Brazil.

When it starts to become more and more obvious to the Americans
- as it has been to Brazilians and most South American for
years - that the whole story of that man is a complete hoax and
nonsense (not only the hilarious abduction with burned beedsheet
and the man's journey to the intergalactic convention with more
that 40 alien races and Jesus himself), I am afraid that Ms.
Howe will be remembered as someone who helped the hoaxer to
continue to fool and deceive people. And help him to make much
more money - now in a real currency, dollars.

I have great respect for your work, Richard, as I have expressed
that to you privately. I know you are a friend of Ms. Howe and
certainly her supporter. I hope that this thing won't hurt you
as well. And as I did in Seattle, last May, I will repeat my
lecture exposing how obvious the hoax is and how dangerous that
man's UFO cult is in my next conference in the USA, in Laughlin,
next February, 2004. I have just been invited to speak at the
13th International UFO Congress, promoted by Bob and Teri Brown,
and if time allows, I will certainly shock some people with the
evidences I am bringing.

Best regards.

A. J. Gevaerd








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                     Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:08:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:41:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UMMO-Like Cylinder - McGonagle


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: UMMO-Like Cylinder

>A couple months ago I received an email by a person calling
>himself Pavel, who claimed to have found a strange object
>buried

<snip>

>To see Pavel's drawing of the cylinder, see:

>http://www.mactonnies.com/saucers.html

>Has anyone on the list received similar correspondence?

>=====
>>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Hello, Mac/List,

I also entered a dialogue with Pavel. He seemed very credible, I
correspond with a Russian family via the internet and it is true
that postage for such an article would be a considerable amount
of money compared to the average income in Russia. Like you, I
suggested that he contact RIAP, and I was suspicious that he
wasn't willing to do so.

Other aspects of his posts are consistent with Russian
lifestyle, for instance, he says that he does not have private
internet access, but can only use it from his public library.
Although there are many individuals that have private access, it
is still beyond the reach of the majority of Russian people due
to the poor economic situation there.

I don't rule out the possibility that he is sincere, but
consider it unlikely.


Regards,

Joe






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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:34:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:11:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:37:04 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:13:07 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>They ridicule and belittle, smirk and giggle when the witnesses
>>>report a sighting, then offer up some of the most ridiculous
>>>solutions for the sighting. And then they have the gall to ask
>>>why the witnesses want to remain anonymous.

>>You know, Don... I've heard it said that pelicans are what
>>happened to the dinosaurs... for a little smirk of my own.<g>

>Yes, much easier to smirk, giggle and make silly comments about
>pelicans, than answer any of the questions I ask, isn't it.


As easy as you answering this post, sir, where you could pretend
an admonishion, rather than my other one, sent a little later,
where I observed:


"Oh please, Mr. Rimmer, this is so much intellectualized tally-
whacking. Trindade is one of the most vetted and rigorously
parsed reports ever made. Your less than academic and plainly
obdurate refutation serves only to make you appear petty,
uninformed, and not remotely convincing.

As regards Mr. Clark... he's not been given to bald hyperbole in
the past (he's been a tested instrument of remarkable
calibration to this point) so where is the validation to thinly
suggest that he is now. Moreover, _blown_ out of the water,
would you even admit it, or just set your CSICOPian sights on
another target..."


... Can't take a little good natured ribbing on your lock-kneed
and reactionary worldview? Tsk. Take heart, the mainstream
agrees with you. There are _plenty_ of places you can go for
validation.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

AVGroup [AlienView.net]... An equal-opportunity paranormalist
association in affiliation with the Church of "It Ain't what You
Think!" and the ISI (Incomprehensiblely Self-Indulgent)<g>.








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   Oct > Oct 24

                  NASA Releases Docs As A Result Of Sci Fi

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:59:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:59:33 -0400
Subject: NASA Releases Docs As A Result Of Sci Fi





Source: PR Newswire

http://www.prnewswire.com/

NASA Releases Documents as a Result of Sci Fi Investigation Into
Kecksburg UFO Incident

Friday October 24, 1:13 pm ET

NEW YORK, Oct. 24 /PRNewswire/ -- A day after SCI FI Channel
announced its unprecedented support for legal action against the
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to release
its records on the 1965 UFO incident in Kecksburg, PA, NASA
informed Lee Helfrich, attorney for the Coalition for Freedom of
Information (CFi), that it is releasing 36 pages of documents
connected to the incident.

After ten months of pursuing the records in Washington, D.C.
through the Freedom of Information Act, NASA has finally
responded to public pressure. The Department of Defense and the
U.S. Army have yet to release any records.

"For more than four months we have received no response from
NASA," said Lee Helfrich of DC based Lobel, Novins and Lamont,
"but one day after John Podesta, President Clinton's former
chief of staff and member of the Moynihan Commission, and Bonnie
Hammer, President of SCI FI Channel, called on government
agencies to make public records that are over 25 years old, lo
and behold, NASA responds."

"I think its fair to say that we have truly entered the realm of
science fiction in Washington, D.C.," said Podesta at a national
press conference this week, "when it's fair game to disclose the
identity of a clandestine CIA agent but not the records of an
unexplained crash in Kecksburg, Pennsylvania that occurred 38
years ago."

"We don't know what is in the documents," said Kean. "They may
not be responsive to our specific requests or relevant to our
investigation. However, we are cautiously optimistic."

"What we receive will determine our next steps," said Helfrich.

On December 9, 1965, witnesses described seeing a fireball in
the evening sky, a controlled landing and the systematic
military recovery of an object. As reported by local radio and
newspapers, U.S. military personnel cordoned off the area,
investigated the site, and left without ever providing a full
report.

A hard-hitting expose on the Kecksburg UFO Incident entitled THE
NEW ROSWELL: KECKSBURG EXPOSED, hosted by Bryant Gumbel,
premieres exclusively on SCI FI Channel on Friday, October 24 at
9PM (ET/PT).







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   Oct > Oct 24

                     Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:47:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:10:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Morris


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:54:23 EDT
>Subject: Roswell & Other Issues

<snip>


>Roswell facts:

>Were Walter Haut's news releases carbon copies - a minimum of 4
>- or were they all originals, possibly different from each
>other, creating some confusion, as Rudiak has mentioned as a
>possibility, since the various stories carried by the media were
>all slightly different? Can someone ask Haut this question as to
>"carbon copies" versus "originals"? Mimeographed copies? Who
>typed the news release? If they were all carbon copies or
>mimeographed copies, they would most likely be identical.

Even though attributed to one or other news services individual
papers quite often editorialized/rewrote the stories for local
consumption. Hence a source of the differences.

>This relates to "intent" on the part of Col. Blanchard et al, IE
>the intent to deceive, or simply mistakes (or additional
>information added) by the newspapers and wire services.

>What was the source of the newswire "Blue Light" reference after
>Haut's press release?

UP wire service copy.

Blue lights seen in the area several days before around 3am.

>Has anyone ever tried to interview Gen. Ramey's wife or kids?
>Other Ramey relatives?

Ramey married late in life _after_ the events surrounding
Roswell.

When we( RPIT) spoke with Mrs Ramey a couple of years ago, as
she put it "the General left his job at the office" and rarely
spoke of AAF matters at home.


Neil








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   Oct > Oct 24

             Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:14:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:14:44 -0400
Subject: Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Maccabee


>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole@rochester.rr.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:51:04 -0400
>Subject: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan


>A long overdue greeting to you.

<snip>

>Phenomena issue one is now out on the newsstands across the U.S.

>My own article, "Government UFO Documents: Does the Military
>Takes UFOs Seriously?" is a quick primer on eleven critically
>important official UFO documents. It includes a discussion of:

>1. The famous 1947 Twining Memo stating the objects were real
>and not visionary or fictitious.

>2. A January 31, 1949 FBI Memo stating the top secret nature of
>the UFO phenomena.

>3. A 1951 USAF Intelligence Report describing an up-close and
>personal UFO encounter on July 9, 1951 by an F-51 pilot.

>4. A well-known CIA Memo of December 2, 1952, addressed to the
>Director of the CIA, stating that "sightings of unexplained
>objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the
>vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature
>that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known
>types of aerial vehicles."

>5. A 1954 Maxwell Air Force Base Emergency Report, describing
>the entry into restricted airspace of an unknown object.

Richard could have included the July 29, 1952 and October 27,
1952 FBI documents in which it is revealed that several percent
of the sightings could not be explained and that some military
officials are "seriously considering the possibility of
interplanetary ships."







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   Oct > Oct 25

                         Re: Remote Viewing? - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:59:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:42:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing? - Pope


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:37:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

>>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:33:54 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Remote Viewing?

><snip>

>>I used to tell these people that I'd run a test, and place an
>>object on top of my television that evening. I asked them to
>>call me back the following day and tell me what the object was.
>>Some never got back to me, and all those that did got it wrong.

>>It wasn't science, and I didn't pretend it was, but it was
>>interesting nonetheless.

>Having our mind control group's (very successful) remote viewer
>to consult with, as well as a local psychic acquaintance, and
>having heard and read about military remote viewing, I think
>there definitely _is_ a bona fide psychic ability. These folks,
>who know more than I do, do say that it takes a substantial
>amount of full time training to reach your potential.

>Psychic ability is very seductive to people who want to feel
>special, and I suspect you had a run of those people in your
>case.

>The "stuff" of remote viewing are the "psychic flashes" many see
>"on the inside of their eyelids" when in bed in a dark room at
>times. In the beginning, the RV candidate just sees those very
>randomly, and the success rate is very low. From what I've
>heard, the RV candidates do improve with coaching and a lot of
>hours spent trying.

>I suspect if you were to try the same thing with people who have
>established a track record in formal remote viewing, or just
>psychics who have a good track record, you would begin to get
>some accurate hits.

>The remote viewers I've heard, read about and talked with freely
>admit there are plenty of errors, so stories of errors don't
>prove RV doesn't work. My suggestion was that a few abductees
>may want to team up with an accomplished remote viewer, and
>obviously, some testing would have to be done before any such
>setup could deliver benefits.

>But from what I know about RV, the testing would have to involve
>a series of attempts, not just one per candidate.

Eleanor,

I think you're right about the people who came to me, offering
their services as remote viewers. Psychic ability would almost
certainly give someone a feeling that they were special, and the
possibility of being a psychic spy for the government might be
even more attractive. I certainly didn't mean to imply that RV
doesn't work. I was just saying that in my limited testing for
it, I found no evidence of the ability.

I would like to have set up a more thorough and scientific
testing programme. However, my terms of reference at the
Ministry of Defence covered only research and investigation into
UFOs. I could just about justify looking into crop circles,
alien abductions and animal mutilations, because of the
perceived link with UFOs. But I suspect that the chain of
command would have regarded research into RV as a step too far.
We just weren't resourced for that sort of work, and unless I
had something demonstrable to take to my bosses, I would not
have obtained approval for carrying out any official research
into RV.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope






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   Oct > Oct 25

                 Sci-Fi Kecksberg Press Conference Materials

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:19:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:53:17 -0400
Subject: Sci-Fi Kecksberg Press Conference Materials


Now that Sci-Fi's Kecksberg special has been aired, I wanted to
follow it up with information released earlier this week. There
is still a great deal of debate within the UFO community as to
whether there is any real mystery with regard to the Kecksberg
crash, but Press coverage of the Sci-Fi Channel's National Press
Club event was very limited this past Tuesday. At the event a
Press Packet given out (as is usually the case), and it
contained written versions of the statements made by those who
spoke. I thought that some may find this information of
interest and wanted to make them a part of the public record.

I have scanned the documents that were handed out, which are
presented below. I believe the OCR accuracy is very good, but
please understand that some minor errors may have slipped
through. I have also removed contact information for privacy
reasons, but certainly these individuals can be contacted if
necessary.

There are a couple of items of note that I'd like to point out.

One is a statement from Nicholas L. Johnson, Chief Scientist for
Orbital Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center, who indicates
that there is no way that the Kecksberg event could be related
to any known man-made debris falling out of orbit.

Another is the lengthy statement from Lee Helfrich, a partner at
the law firm of Lobel, Novins & Lamont, which has been retained
by CFI to handle the legal challenges.

Rather than break this up into small segments, I'm forwarding
all of the statements in this one message. Unfortunately, this
will make it rather long.

==========


THE KECKSBURG INCIDENT

History

On December 9, 1965, an object landed near the small town of
Kecksburg, PA. It was observed as a fireball in the sky across
several U.S. states and Canada.

At the scene, officials told residents a meteor crashed. But the
next day, both local authorities and the U.S. government
declared nothing fell that night and nothing was found.

Four witnesses provided independent, corroborated descriptions
of the object and its location in the Kecksburg woods. Dozens of
others including firefighters, newspaper reporters, and a radio
news director at WHJB (who was on the scene taping interviews)
describe the large military presence at the crash site and the
cordoning off of the area. Some observed the retrieval of an
object that was transported by an army truck. Many witnesses
signed statements for investigator Stan Gordon of Greensburg,
PA, who has been working on the case for over three decades.

Project Blue Book - the official Air Force investigation into
UFOs terminated in 1969 - says that no space debris entered our
atmosphere that day. Data from the U.S. Space Command and the
Russian Space Agency indicates that whatever came down was not a
Russian satellite or space probe.

To this day, no one knows what triggered the interest of the
U.S. military, and the government s non-response has led to
heated speculation. In the ensuing 38 years, members of the once
tightly-knit community have been torn apart by the continuing
questions about what happened some believe that there s more to
this incident than the government let on, and others believe
that nothing happened at all.

For the last year, SCI Fl Channel has supported an unprecedented
initiative to get to the bottom of this mystery. Investigative
journalist Leslie Kean of the Coalition for Freedom of
Information has spearheaded an effort to obtain government
documents through the Freedom of Information Act, in cooperation
with a Washington law firm, a professional archival research
firm, and a seasoned private investigator.

This effort to get our government to open the books about the
Kecksburg incident has won the support of John Podesta,
President Clinton s former Chief of Staff. We ought to do it
because it s right; we ought to do it because the American
people quite frankly can handle the truth; and we ought to do it
because it s the law, he said at a press conference launching
the initiative one year ago.


=======

Statement of Robert Gatty
Reporter who covered Kecksburg Incident
October 21, 2003

I was a reporter for the Greensburg Tribune-Review in 1965, and
upon returning from an assignment the evening of December 9,
1965, was sent to Kecksburg, PA to cover the reported sighting
of an unidentified flying object. It was the story of the
century, my editor said.

When I arrived at the scene, I was told by armed Army personnel
and Pennsylvania State troopers that there was nothing there and
to leave. They were extremely defensive, and when I said, If
there is nothing there, what s the problem? I was told, You can
t go down there, indicating the wooded area where the object was
thought to have landed. There were probably a dozen or so Amy
personnel at the scene, most of them sealing off the area and
preventing local people and reporters from walking into the
area. I grew up in an Army family and I can distinguish the
uniforms of the services.

There was a huge traffic jam on the little country road that
bordered the area, and plenty of excitement. Time was short, and
it was tough to find someone right then who had actually seen
the object fall. But a local farmer and fireman, Dale Howard,
told me he felt a vibration and a thump about the time the
object reportedly fell. I reported those comments in the article
that appeared the morning of December 10 in the Tribune-Review.
I filed my report from Howard s home, where I borrowed his
phone.

The afternoon edition carried an article that I wrote containing
more details of the incident, including quotes from a nearby
resident, Mrs. Arnold Kalp, of Acme, PA, who said her eight-
 year-old son, Kevin, saw the object come down. It looked like a
flaming star, Mrs. Kalp said. It left a trail of flames behind
it and fell in the woods. Mrs. KaIp also told reporters she was
told by military personnel not to tell anyone what her son had
seen until an investigation was launched.

While I was at Howard s home, another eyewitness, Jim Mayes, of
Mammoth, PA, walked in and said he and six other men had seen
three blue flashing lights near the area of the sighting.
Tribune Review photographer Jim Downs and I managed to work our
way into woods where Mayes said he saw the lights. However, we
came up empty. Shortly thereafter, I left the Tribune-Review for
a new job with United Press International in Harrisburg, so was
not involved in further follow-up articles. However, since my
father, at the time of the incident, was stationed at an Army
Nike missile site at nearby Irwin, PA, I suspected that perhaps
there was a mishap with one of those missiles and the Army
wanted to hush it up. It was simply a theory, but I do believe
from what people told me and what has since been reported that
something did land in the woods near Kecksburg that evening.

Certainly, it is high time that the residents of the
Pennsylvania communities affected by this event be told what
happened. The Army appeared to be protecting something that
night. If the government is not willing to release the files on
this case, Congressional representatives from Pennsylvania
should take an interest and demand some answers. At this point
in time, nearly 40 years later, what possibly could be the
reason for continuing this cover-up?

After 4 years with LIPI, Catty worked on Capitol Hill for two
US. Congressmen. He returned to journalism in 1978, and is now
Executive Editor and Publisher of Advantage, a food industry
trade magazine published by the Food Marketing Institute,
Washington, DC.


======


The Cosmos 96 question is settled once and for all

Chief Scientist for Orbital Debris at the NASA Johnson Space
Center, Nicholas L. Johnson, who is recognized internationally
as an authority on orbital debris and foreign space systems, has
determined that Cosmos 96, the Russian Venera probe that has
been considered a possible explanation for the Kecksburg object
for decades, did not land in Pennsylvania on the afternoon of
December 9, 1965. Furthermore, he states that no other man-made
object from any country came down that day.

Debris from Cosmos 96 has been a leading contender as an
explanation for the Kecksburg object, due to the fact that it
came down early that morning over Canada. Perhaps part ended up
in Pennsylvania later, the theory went. The Air Force stated at
the time that no space debris entered the atmosphere that day,
and that all aircraft and missiles were accounted for.

Johnson examined the orbital data for Cosmos 96 and was able to
calculate when it would have passed over Pennsylvania if it had
been in orbit that day. The time, when it traveled from north to
south, was at approximately 6:20 am. The Kecksburg object came
down at 4:45 p.m. I can tell you categorically, that there is no
way that any debris from Cosmos 96 could have landed in
Pennsylvania anywhere around 4:45 p.m., said Johnson in an
interview on October 10, 2003. That s an absolute. Orbital
mechanics is very strict.

The US Space Command reported in 1991 that Cosmos 96 crashed in
Canada at 3:18 a.m. Johnson does not have information about the
time of demise of Cosmos 96, but he did confirm that it was over
Canada at this time.

One part of Cosmos 96 could not have stayed in orbit until 4:45
p.m. after the object came apart hours earher, as some had
speculated.

Even more intriguing, Johnson s data shows that no man-made
object from any country entered our atmosphere and landed in
Pennsylvania on the afternoon of December 9. Cosmos 96 was the
only catalogued object that came down at all that day. He says
that anything not catalogued would have been so small that it
would not have survived reentry. I cannot absolutely confirm
that it was not some completely unreported event, but the
chances of that are virtually nil, said Johnson. You can t
launch something without somebody seeing it. By 1965 the US and
Soviets were both reporting their launches.

The possibility of a US reconnaissance satellite dropping a
large film canister on that day has also been ruled out. These
capsules were dropped following secret missions over the Soviet
Union. Data on these flights was recently declassified. By
checking launch and retrieval times, these capsules can also
been eliminated as a possible explanation for what landed in
Kecksburg.

In 1965, unlike today, the US government did not have the
technical means of detecting natural bodies, such as a meteor,
suddenly coming into the earth s atmosphere. The only record we
would have of such an event would be witness reports.

Previously, both Johnson and another renowned expert, Phillip S.
Clark of London s Molniya Space Consultancy who has studied the
Soviet and Chinese space programs for more than 20 years, had
just about eliminated Cosmos 96 as a possibility, assuming
witness report are accurate. The capsule was only 3 feet in
diameter much smaller than the object reported by Kecksburg
witnesses. Clark also pointed out that the Cosmos capsule could
not have made turns or descended slowly at an angle, as
witnesses reported.

Now, the Cosmos 96 explanation is no longer a question, and we
have fewer options left to explain this mystery. As Dr. Peter
Sturrock, emeritus professor of applied physics at Stanford
University, says in his book The UFO En(gma, In principle, we
can prove a hypothesis not only by finding strong evidence in
its favor, but also by finding strong evidence against every
other possibility.

Leslie Kean

The Coalition for Freedom of Information

October, 2003


======

Statement of
Bonnie Hammer, President of SCI Fl Channel

October 21, 2003

I just want to take this opportunity to thank the press and the
panelists for coming down this morning. I m Bonnie Hammer,
President of the Sd Fl Channel.

A year ago, I was here to lend SCI Fl Channel s support to an
effort to obtain government records pertaining to a UFO incident
that occurred in 1965 in Kecksburg, Pennsylvania. As John
Podesta, President Clinton s former Chief of Staff and former
member of the Moynihan Commission on Protecting and Reducing
Government Secrecy, said at our press conference last year,
disclosure is the general rule, not the exception.

As I said then, our ongoing objective is to explore the boundary
between science fact and science fiction and to help shed more
light on a mystery that has remained locked away in government
files.

So, we are here today to tell you that after a year of intensive
investigation on the Kecksburg incident, government agencies
have yet to provide any information. And we are here today to
announce a deepening of SCI Fl s commitment to support these
continuing efforts, including but not limited to the filing of
any necessary lawsuits to open up government files.

Attorney Lee Heifrich of the Washington, D.C. firm of Lobel,
Novins and Lamont; investigative journalist Leslie Kean, who
serves as director of investigations for the Coalition for
Freedom of Information; and Amber Moulton-Wiseman, an archival
research expert from History Associates Incorporated, will all
discuss what they have found from their year s worth of
investigative work. In your press packages you will find more
detailed information about the investigation.

As part of our commitment to uncover the truth about the
Kecksburg incident, the SCI Fl Channel will broadcast a two-hour
documentary on October 24, which will reveal new information
about the mystery. We will explore the various explanations for
the incident -- but most importantly, this Friday we will reveal
the breakthrough findings of Dr. Ray R. Hicks, Professor of
Forestry at West Virginia University, whose compelling
conclusions corroborate eyewitness accounts from 1965.

While this evidence proves that something fell from the sky, it
is still incomplete. To fully solve this mystery, the Department
of Defense, the U.S. Army, the U.S. Airforce and NASA need to
disclose what they know. These agencies and only these agencies
have the ability to shed light on what really happened in
Kecksburg on December 9, 1965.


=======


Statement of Leslie Kean

October 21, 2003

My name is Leslie Kean and I m an investigative reporter. I ve
worked for a year with the Coalition for Freedom of Information
on the Kecksburg investigation. Even though we have used the
Freedom of Information Act coupled with a search at federal
records centers, we have not been able to obtain government
records explaining what crashed in Kecksburg in 1965 and why
armed military were on the scene.

We have been fortunate to work closely with Stan Gordon from
Greensburg Pennsylvania, who has researched and documented this
case for over 30 years. He too has been denied government
documents, despite many attempts over the years. Gordon, who is
here today, has collected dozens of witness interviews and
written reports. I have interviewed many of these witnesses
myself in Pennsylvania.

The sheer number of people who witnessed different aspects of
the event makes the notion that nothing happened inconceivable.
Some saw the object moving slowly in the sky; others saw smoke
in the woods when it first crashed. Four witnesses provided
Gordon with independent, corroborated descriptions of the object
on the ground and its location in the Kecksburg woods. Others
provided detailed descriptions of the object being transported
out on a flatbed truck. Many more reported military and state
police in the area; a few reported NASA personnel on the scene.

And now, Dr. Ray Hicks of West Virginia University has
documented tree damage at the crash site, matching earlier
photographs of broken branches at the location. This shows that
something did come down at an angle exactly where witnesses
reported it and that it happened in 1965.

Robert Gatty, a reporter for the G reensburg Thbune Review that
night, wrote the story Unidentified Flying Object Falls Near
Kecksburg...Army Ropes off Area. He told me that he encountered
ten or more Army personnel at the scene, preventing people and
reporters from entering the area where the object was believed
to have landed. Later, a radio report on WHJB also reported an
Army presence. (The State Police fire marshal! told the reporter
to get his information on what crashed from the Army.) And
civilians capable of distinguishing military uniforms and Army
vehicles reported the same. We documented all of this for the
Army, but it has not even acknowledged the incident let alone
given us an explanation.

The Air Force is the only agency that has released files on this
case. These state that a three-man team was dispatched to
investigate and pick up an object that started a fire but that
nothing was found. The Air Force concludes the object was simply
a meteor in the sky that never came down. Again, this is in
direct contradiction to what people and media, who were there,
reported.

Thanks to the work of our private investigator, we were able to
locate several key personnel of the 662nd Radar Squadron in
Oakdale, Pennsylvania, including one who went out to search for
the object that night. He said he did not observe any Army
presence in the area, or the large spotlights in the woods
observed by witnesses. Three of them told us that nothing was
found. And, discrepancies among key points of their stories are
puzzling. Is it possible that this small group was taken to a
different location from the one that was cordoned off by the
Army, and that they searched the wrong site? Or, were they
perhaps sworn not to reveal what happened for national security
reasons? We don t know - and we won t know until the government
releases all the records.

A report filed with the Air Force by one of these officers the
next day was not included with the Air Force files. It should
have been. We now have an affidavit from the former officer that
we are sending to the Air Force to request this crucial
document.

Recently, we were able to setUe the question of whether Russian
or US space debris landed in Kecksburg. Nicholas Johnson, Chief
Scientist for Orbital Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center,
is recognized internationally as an authority on orbital debris
and foreign space systems. He obtained the orbital coordinates
for Cosmos 96, a Russian probe that some have speculated might
be the Kecksburg object, since it came down earlier that day in
Canada. Johnson determined that Cosmos 96 could not possibly
have been what landed in Kecksburg. Even more intriguing,
Johnson s data shows that no man-made object from any country
entered our atmosphere and landed in Pennsylvania on the
afternoon of December 9.

Yet the evidence strongly suggests that something did come down
that night, thirty- eight years ago. What was the importance of
the object that caused the military to rapidly respond to the
Kecksburg area? Who authorized soldiers to brandish weapons at
local citizens approaching the landing site? It is time that the
people of Pennsylvania, and the nation, get the answers. They
have every right to know.

=======


Lee E. Heifrich
Partner, Lobel, Novins and Lamont

Executive Summary

October 21, 2003

My name is Lee Heltrich. I m a partner at the law firm of Lobel,
Novins and Lamont and have been assisting the Coalition for
Freedom of Information (CFi) with its Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) initiative. I ve been asked to give you a very brief
summary today. No one up here with me seems to appreciate that
as a lawyer I get paid by the word.

When CFi started its FOIA initiative a year ago, it faced two
hurdles. The first is what we ve termed the ridicule factor. The
second was the bureaucratization of the government s FOIA
process.

The Kecksburg incident like many others is viewed as a UFO
story. Today, those three letters are associated in the public s
mind with entertainment and Star Trek conventions. That we are
entertained by the unknown and the prospect for the future is
certainly okay. What is not okay is when the popular culture or
conventional wisdom overwhelms and excludes the search for real
answers. As today s newspapers repeatedly remind us, the line
between official fact and fiction is not all that clear.


What today we call the UFO phenomenon began as a taxpayer
funded, government internal security program administered by the
U.S. Air Force. Any object that entered U.S. air space that
could not be immediately identified was an Unidentified Flying
Object a term coined by the military. Initially, the public was
asked by the government itself to report incidents like
Kecksburg.

During the time period of Kecksburg, however, the government was
also reorganizing this homeland security program a not uncommon
bureaucratic maneuver. A by-product of the government s
reorganization effort was the re-definition of a UFO
investigation as an inquiry about space aliens. To patronize and
trivialize the honest reports and questions of citizens, whose
lives and communities were impacted by a government program is,
in my opinion, disgraceful.

In today s environment, the public is often reminded that
premature disclosure of government information could harm
legitimate national security and law enforcement efforts. The
FOIA balances the goal of open government with the government s
need for temporary secrecy. At some point in time, however,
secrets become stale, and the government s activities, in the
words of the Supreme Court, should be opened to the sharp eye of
public scrutiny. This is not an effort to revise history, but to
complete it.

As summarized in a 1997 report of a congressional commission,
the reality is that access delayed is access denied. Since its
enactment in 1966 and despite its lofty goals FOIA has become
user unfriendly a bureaucratic maze that can be pursued only by
those with extraordinary patience and pocketbooks. An example of
this is DR s experience with the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration NASA. In response to CF1 s first request letter,
NASA came back relatively quickly with a no records response.
This was one of the many go away responses that CFi expected to
receive from the federal government at the outset of its FOIA
initiative. Most FOIA practitioners steer clear of pursuing no
records responses, because, to prevail, the requester most show
that the agency did not conduct a reasonable, good faith search
a showing that requires the FOIA requester to, in essence,
produce government documents responsive to his/her own FOIA
request. CFi was prepared to do this indeed, as you know, it is
actively pursuing a parallel investigation. As a result, CFi won
its administrative appeal of NASA s no records response. CFi has
now waited patiently for four months for NASA to produce the
results of its promise to conduct an expedited search.

For over forty years, we lived with the Cold War and all the
fear it engendered. The UFO phenomenon whether it coincided with
that War or was a product of it is an important chapter in our
government s operations and our history. As Kecksburg
demonstrates, it still has an impact on real people and real
communities, who have no agenda other than obtaining honest
answers. Aliens may not have invaded Kecksburg in December 1965,
but the U.S. military surely did.

In my opinion, Congress did not intend to force the public to
litigate over its own history. Unfortunately, the government has
created FOIA process in which litigation has become a necessary
evil. Freedom of Information is being held hostage to a
sometimes hostile, and definitely byzantine bureaucracy. For a
democracy, that deserves much more ridicule than legitimate
curiosity about crop circles or extraterrestrial life.

======



Statement Of Lee E. Heifrich
Lobel, Novins & Lamont
October 21, 2003

My name is Lee Helfrich, and I m a partner at the law firm of
Lobel, Novins & Lamont. I am, of course, the lawyer on Coalition
for Freedom of Information s Kecksburg team and have been
overseeing CFi s Freedom of Information Act initiative, which
was announced nearly a year ago. CFi is currently seeking access
to documents related to the Kecksburg incident from the
Department of Defense, the Army, the Air Force and the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration NASA.

Before rattling my legal saber and announcing a charge into
court, I think its worthwhile to emphasize that neither I nor my
clients had any delusions CFi S FOIA initiative was going to be
anything other than an uphill battle. Many of you have probably
suffered from FOIA frustration. And, thanks to the many dogged
reporters and investigators out there, CFi knew what to expect
in terms of the government s response to its FOIA requests. CFi
was not disappointed for over a year it received various
versions of go away from various different Departments and sub-
 agencies. Because of CFi s parallel investigative effort, it
was prepared in advance to play that game.

But before sharing FOIA anecdotes, I think its important to
underscore t at CF s FOIA initiative had another strike against
it at the start the conventional wisdom about UFOs .

When CFi first came to my firm with its proposal, my first
response was to laugh. In my dictionary, those three letters UFO
spelled ridicule. I didn t spend three years in law school, a
year at Harvard doing graduate work on the First Amendment, and
20 years in practice to become known as Er s lawyer. If it weren
t for the credibility, talent and support of the people who were
involved John Podesta, Leslie Kean, Ed Rothschild, History
Associates, the Sci Fi Channel, among others I would not have
given this proposal a second thought. No one I know of has ever
gotten rich off litigating FOIA cases.

There is no doubt that a lot of the stuff out there on the UFO
phenomenon is hard to swallow. For example, to this day, I still
fall within that category of people who think crop circles are
the product of pranksters with way too much time on their hands.
But, let s face it, you can t pick up a newspaper today without
being reminded that the line between official fact and fiction
isn t all that bright. The Freedom of Information Act was
intended to give the public access to all the facts so that they
could draw the line themselves. As summarized in a recent
Washington Post Op-Ed, the government is not entitled to
promulgate an official version of history and to deride as
untrustworthy any challenges to their account.

The conventional wisdom about UFO5 that it concerns small, green
alien creatures is historically inaccurate. For at least 20
years, the United States Air Force from the late 1940s through
the 1960s actively investigated reports of unknown airborne
objects entering U.S. air space this was, at the time, part and
parcel of our homeland security program during the height of the
Cold War. The U.S. military coined the term unidentified flying
object , which like almost everything else in the government,
soon became known by its acronym UFO . Like today, the public
was encouraged to report the unknown. Given the time period, it
should not be surprising that the government s primary focus was
on foreign, not alien, spying, but initially the latter was not
an officially excluded possibility.

Somewhere along the line, the UFO program became politically
disfavored. The official definition of UFO was narrowed to my
favorite martian and the official position was no proof. In
modern terms, UFOs were politically incorrect. Citizens who
reported UFOs thinking they were doing just what the government
had asked of them were patronized, marginalized, and ridiculed.
The Air Force, rest assured, was still tracking and
investigating unknown airborne objects entering U.S. air space.
But in true bureaucratic form, that part of the old UFO project
was spun off in an agency reorganization, and became one of many
classified national security programs.

The Kecksburg incident was selected as CFi s FOIA pilot, in
part, because it occurred during the time of this reorganization
and transformation of the federal government s UFO inquiries.
The old Air Force UFO program called Project Blue Book was still
in operation, but was in the process of being dismantled. The
official and publicly available Blue Book file on Kecksburg is
interesting mostly because of what it does not contain. What the
file does contain are messages between the Blue Book office and
the Pentagon exhibiting a curious preoccupation of what to tell
the media, with the end result being a decision, completely
unsupported at the time, to say it was a meteorite. The paucity
of documentation in the public file is out of sync with the
degree of military interest in the incident as reflected in
contemporaneous radio and newspaper accounts.

And then, on the human sith, there was Kecksburg a sleepy little
Pennsylvania village chock full of witnesses who would riot come
forward at the time because of a sense of patriotism, a fear of
retaliation, or the anxiety of embarrassment. One resident at
CFi s town meeting explained that he never came forward until
recently because of the ridicule factor. At the same time, there
is nearly universal agreement with the comment of a retired
Kecksburg firefighter that the U.S. doesn t send out the
military to check into shooting stars. No where on the
Pennsylvania turnpike will you see a billboard enticing you to
visit the alien museum and theme park of Kecksburg, PA!! After
nearly 40 years, the residents of Kecksburg still don t know
what happened, but also don t want to be dismissed as kooks.

Personally, I believe that citizens deserve more honesty and
respect from their government. Aliens may not have invaded
Kecksburg in December 1965, but the U.S. military surely did.

Coincidentally, shortly after Kecksburg in 1966 Congress enacted
the Freedom of Information Act so that any person could make a
request to review documentation relating to the operation of the
federal government. As the Supreme Court held: [d]isclosure, not
secrecy, is the dominant objective of the Act. mhe FOIA s
central purpose is to ensure that the Government s activities be
opened to the sharp eye of public scrutiny. Put simply, people
have a right to know what their government is up to and why.

Congress recognized that there should be exceptions to immediate
public disclosure. Over the past few months, the news media has
reported on some of the current efforts to delay release of
information that, for example, could harm national security or
law enforcement interests. Congress, however, intended to put
the burden on the government to prove that documents should not
be released for public inspection the presumption of FOIA is
open government. Unfortunately, the government s view of its
obligations to the public under FOIA has never been in sync with
Congress s original intent.

Take for example the FOJA bureaucracy. Not only does each
federal department have a FOIA office; typically each agency
within a Department will have a FOIA office. Each Department
will have its own set of regulations applying the FOIA. The
Defense Department regulations, for example, number over 50
pages; each page contains two columns of rules in small print.

Somewhere in every department s set of regulations will be the
helpful advice that your FOIA request will be processed more
quickly if it is directed to the appropriate subagency. For the
DoD that will not only include its own subagencies, but also the
Departments of the Army, Air Force, etc and each of those
Departments respective subagencies and regulatory tomes. Even
assuming that an agency name explains its function, the
constancy of government reorganization makes even this first
step inordinately difficult. In CFi s case the Headquarters,
U.S. Army Support Detachment, Oakdale, PA fadlity is now called
the Charles E. Kelly Support Facility. In 1965, Oakdale was
under the jurisdiction of a Fort Custer in Michigan, it now
reports to Fort Dix in New Jersey.

To make this maze more user non-friendly, there is typically an
address hidden within the regulations where the public can write
in the event that there is uncertainty about what subagency
might have the record being sought. CFi wrote to one of the DoD
offices for the uncertain , which responded that it did not have
the documents Cfl requested because DoD s FOIA program was
decentralized in other words the burden is on the public to
figure out the agency paper trail. Fortunately, because of CFis
research, FOIA requests were also made to DoD agencies on
various rungs of the bureaucratic ladder.

If you can get beyond the who s on first phase of the FOIA, you
get to move to the name that document phase . The Army, for
example, told CFi that we had not described what we wanted with
sufficient specificity to enable it to even conduct a FOIA
search. Its regulation on specificity advises the public to
provide descriptive information that is event related and
includes the circumstances that resulted in the record being
created or the date and circumstances surrounding the event the
record covers. Apparently, for the Army, CFi s data
establishing, inter a/ia, the participation of the Army, and
military personnel from the U.S. Army Support Detachment in
Oakdale, Pennsylvania in a publicly acknowledged investigation
of an unknown object reported at 4:45 pm and referred to the
military shortly thereafter by the Pennsylvania State Police on
December 9, 1965 didn t give the Army a clue about where to
start looking.

A variation on the same theme was NASA s no records response to
CFi s first request letter. CFi, however, was prepared to show
NASA that documents did exist in its files. This resulted in a
successful administrative appeal on a particularly difficult
FOIA issue. Most FOTA practitioners steer clear of pursuing no
records responses. Since winning the administrative appeal, CFi
has waited patiently for four months for NASA to realize on its
promise for an expedited response.

Responses like these are not atypical and certainly do not
capture the full extent of the FOIA run- a-round. Thus, even if
you know document s title, author and location, bureaucratic
roadblocks still abound and FOIA officers spend an inordinate
amount of time looking for ways to deny the public access to
documents that they concede exist. The Justice Department s
Overview manual on application of FOIA exemptions by federal
agencies is over 980 pages long and two inches thick. A handy
supplement is its 560 page case list.

Through its research, CFi knew that earlier attempts to access
documents related to the UFO phenomenon had been denied based
national security classification; a somewhat odd classification
for material related to a subject which the government formally
declared in 1969 did not pose a threat to national security. In
an exercise of common sense, the Clinton Administration issued
an Executive Order in 1996, which was intended to open for
public review older classified records. The following year, a
congressional commission issued a report finding that not much
declassification had yet occurred, which was at least in part
due to many years of rubber stamping classifications on
documents that posed little if any threat other than
embarrassment. The Bush Administration, of course, has tightened
the classification program still, documents as old as those
relating to Kecksburg remain presumptively open.

But even if you can escape the classification tug of war , there
is still the needle in the haystack . All over the country there
are government warehouses filled with tons of boxes of history,
the volume of which increases every year. What is legitimately
classified today may be lost in the black hole of the federal
records management system. In short, access delayed may very
well be access denied. Indeed, one of the warehoused boxes that
CFi identified as containing UFO material is listed on the
official warehouse index as lost. It was lost after a FOIA
request by Kecksburg resident. This isn t fiction, its fact and
any speculation therefrom is solely the responsibility of
government secrecy, aided and abetted by record management
disarray and bureaucratic inertia.

In short, the government s FOIA process is a game of attrition.
For those with patience and a pocketbook like CFi playing the
litigation card has become a necessary evil. Moreover, more and
more litigation is not aimed at ending the game, but is simply a
strategic phase aimed at putting pressure on a bureaucracy that
views FOIA requesters as the enemy or a nuisance . In my
opinion, this is not what Congress intended in 1966 judicial
review was supposed to be the exception, not the rule. But then
again, Congress also intended public disclosure to be the rule,
not the exception. The public should not have to litigate over
its history.

For forty years, we lived with the Cold War and all the fear it
engendered. Indeed, one of the most noted UFO de-bunkers has
theorized that the Soviet Union had a vested interest in
maintaining the UFO myth in order to cover up military and space
race mistakes of the 1960s. What our institutional incentives
were remain hidden. The UFO phenomenon whether it coincided with
that War or was a product of it is as an important chapter in
our government s operations and our history. It still has impact
on real people and real communities.

In the last few years, a spate of books have been published
about the Cold War, some have been serious, like John Earl
Haynes and Harvey Klehr s In Denial, and some silly, like Ann
Coulter s Treason. It is an interesting that these new
revelations and spins are in large part due to information from
the archives of the Soviet Union, which became available, albeit
temporarily, only after its collapse. The healthy historical
debate continues, but based upon documentary snippets that take
the dialogue to a new level only because of the collapse of a
major power, some of the files of which were opened for a short
time while it was reorganizing its own government. As Marquette
University s Athan Theoharis, a leading Cold War scholar, has
noted, these new books and the new information raise further
questions about the official version of our history, and what
our government was doing and why. These efforts don t revise
history, they complete it.

On our side, unfortunately, Freedom of Information is still
being held hostage to a sometimes hostile, and definitely
byzantine bureaucracy. In a democracy that deserves more
ridicule than legitimate curiosity about crop circles and
extraterrestrial life.


======


Statement of Amber Mouton-Wiseman
Research Historian, History Associates Inc.
October 21, 2003


[this statement refers to a form that is not included here -
 Steve]

Hello, I am Amber Moulton-Wiseman, a Research Historian for
History Associates Incorporated, a historical research and
consulting firm in Rockville, Maryland. History Associates has
over twenty years of experience specializing in research in
federal records, especially those that must be obtained through
requests pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act. Our
involvement with this project began in April 2003 when CFI and
the Sci Fi Channel asked us to help them locate additional US
government records that might contain information on the
Kecksburg incident.

We began our search at the National Archives where we reviewed
Air Force, NASA, Army, and State Department files for any
information that might pertain to Kecksburg. We cast a wide net,
searching for such things as the records of Pennsylvania
military units that might have investigated the incident, and
Air Force and NASA files from offices responsible for
investigating objects falling to earth. Other than reports in
the Air Force Project Blue Book files, we found no documents
pertaining to what happened at Kecksburg.



In part this was not too surprising because many US government
records from the mid-1960s have not yet been handed over to the
US National Archives. Accordingly, we expanded our research to
include more recent records that are still held in Federal
Records Centers throughout the country. Unlike documents at the
National Archives, collections held by the federal records
centers are not yet open to the public, so we were not able to
examine the documents themselves. However, we were able to
review transmittal forms like these [show SF 135] that provide a
basic description of the files contained in each collection.

One SF 135 form contains a detailed list of folders from a
collection of NASA records held at the Washington National
Records Center in Suitland, Maryland. It is one of several
thousand NASA collections; however, this particular collection
includes a set of Fragology Files from the mid-1960s. These
files relate to NASA investigations of reports on objects
falling to the earth from space. Accordingly, these are
precisely the kind of records that might include informatioh
about the Kecksburg incident.

Our review of the records held at the Washington National
Records Center and other federal records centers around the
country identified many other Army, Air Force, and NASA
collections that might help shed light on the incident. However,
the only way to look at these records is through the FOIA
process. The latest FOM requests that we have sent out for Army,
Air Force, and NASA files include specific information taken
from transmittal forms likes these [indicate Fragology files],
which should help the FOIA offices to locate relevant materials.
We hope that this approach will lead to more favorable FOIA
responses in the near future.

As you can see, these contents lists are usually not detailed,
so we are not at all certain that these files contain documents
relating to Kecksburg. However, the crux of the matter is just
that without access to these files, there is no way to know
exactly what they contain. But the descriptions are compelling
and only by reviewing these materials can we determine if they
will shed new light on the Kecksburg incident.

Thank you.



=====end=====







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 25

                Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Gottschall

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:47 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:08:20 -0400
Subject: Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Gottschall


>Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:33:45 +1000
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>From: Diane Harrison <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
>Subject: Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003


>Dear ACUFOS

>I would like to point out a few slight
>mistake in your Quest journal  re the information
>with regard to the Australian Disclosure project....
>The Australian Disclosure project was launched by
>Keith Basterfield yes but it was initiated by myself the
>Australian UFO Research Network and independent
>researchers some two and a half years ago, not by
>AURA as stated in your Quest journal "no disrespect
>intended".

The announcement relating to the Disclosure Australia Project
(reproduced below) which appeared in the first issue of "UFO
Quest" is accurate:

DISCLOSURE AUSTRALIA PROJECT

The Disclosure Australia Project was launched at the 3rd
Australian National UFO Conference held on the 14th & 15th June
2003 in Brisbane, Australia. The purpose of the project is to
ascertain the extent of official Australian government knowledge
of the UFO phenomenon; then to document both this and civilian
knowledge on the subject.

The project was launched by Keith Basterfield on behalf of the
Australian UFO Research Association (AURA) located in Adelaide,
Australia and the Australian UFO Research Network.

Project updates are available via on-line newsletters at:

http-://disclosure.freewebpage.org

For further information contact AURA media liaison officers:

Keith Basterfield Mobile 041 141 7594
uforesearchersa@yahoo.com.au

Debbie Payne Mobile 0413 800 143
debbiep@adam.com.au


Regards,

Sheryl Gottschall
Australian Centre for UFO Studies
www.acufos.asn.au

UFO Quest, an Australian publication, is available on line at
http://www.acufos.asn.au/publications/publications.html







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   Oct > Oct 26

                   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Oberg

From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:53:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:47:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Oberg


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:12:14 -0400
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

<snip>

>What they didn't emphasize (and it may be that the information
>came in too late to make it a part of the presentation) is that
>a Chief Scientist for Orbital Debris at NASA and ruled out any
>possibility of the Kecksberg incident being caused by Russian or
>American space debris falling out of orbit. This is a major blow
>to the explanation that is often promoted to explain the event.


I'm far from home on vacation and have not seen the show, but
I remember what I told them - I am not arguing that the object
WAS the Venera ('Kosmos-96') capsule, merely that arguing by
'elimination' hasn't ruled out prosaic explanations _like_ that
one.

Steve's comment falls well within the scope of my argument. His
unspoken assumption is, "The US Air Force would NEVER lie to us
about tracking data, even if it's the data for a spacecraft they
may have illegally snatched and don't want the Soviets to
realize." Based on that assumption (the same one Dr. Johnson
carefully alluded to with his reference to 'catalogued
objects'), he argues that the US Air Force _has_ lied to us.
Duh.....

There may well be ways to rule out Kosmos-96 based on tracking
data, but they have not been found yet by these self-styled
investigators. Nor do I think I will help them further.

However, I will not _mislead_ anyone by arguing that _I_ happen
to want people to believe that the Kosmos-96 prosaic explanation
is credible and consistent with all trustworthy evidence.

The least unlikely explanation in my view is that the natural
fireball meteor - and it was so well observed and recorded that
it looks exactly like thousands of other natural bolides and
it's pre-impact trajectory could be computed and found to be
'natural-meteoroid-like' - led to somebody's suspicion that it
was connected with the imminent entry of a very high-priority
space object (Kosmos-96) so when the meteor was seen and
reported, some low-level DoD pawns drove over to nose around.
The rest is pseudo-history of the self-inflationary kind.

The 'acorn-shaped' stories seem to only have emerged _after_
self-styled witnesses were shown photographs of the Venera
entry probe by UFO investigators, I have been informed. Before
that, the vehicle was supposedly 'rocket-shaped'. Can anyone
provide more light on that significant issue?


Jim Oberg

www.jamesoberg.com








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   Oct > Oct 26

             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:06:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:50:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:34:05 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

><snip>

>>>"Oh please, Mr. Rimmer, this is so much intellectualized tally-
>>>whacking. Trindade is one of the most vetted and rigorously
>>>parsed reports ever made. Your less than academic and plainly
>>>obdurate refutation serves only to make you appear petty,
>>>uninformed, and not remotely convincing.

>>If Trindade has been so thoroughly vetted and rigorously parsed
>>(?) why did none of the investigators, at the time or later,
>>speak to any of the witnesses othet that the photographer and
>>his two friends? Did they just say "ah, well, that's that
>>sorted, no need to bother anyone else", and go home?

>Verily, you've found a dissembling tick-turd and insist that we
>all pole vault over it. You suggest a hoax based on a straw ipso
>facto you have generated yourself and use the negative
>manufactured to imply a proof for your contrived case. I submit,
>sir, that you have no -idea- what the investigators did or
>didn't do, and not very cleverly paint them much later and after
>the fact as hoaxers or shambling buffoons. When it's all said
>and done I can only conclude that the investigation as it stands
>provides the required verity because the quality (explained in a
>moment) of the persons involved in the affair is high and high
>profile and is documented as high, while the knee-jerk
>performance of persons on your side of the isle (Menzel, among
>others) was duplicitous, dissembling, and decidedly unscientific
>from the beginning. Where the verity was, from the beginning, is
>plain.

As far as I can understand the above paragraph ("tick-turd" is
not a phrase common amongst my aquantances) you are implying
that I think the investigation of the Trindade case was poorly
conducted. In which case you miss my point entirely. Trindade
was investigated by a number of people and organisations, with
different agenda. I have no reason to believe that *any* of them
were "shambling buffoons". This makes it all the more remarkable
that none of them came across any other direct eyewitnesses that
Barauna and his colleagues.

Rather than this being due to the investigatotrs incompetence, I
suggest it is due to the fact that there were no other direct
eyewitnesses

>>You see, this is what I don't understand: dozens of witnesses,
>>allegedly, but only three of them give statements.

>Allen Hynek wrote in his "The UFO Experience" that a true
>scientist would not think of measuring light through an
>instrument that was not properly calibrated against light from a
>known star, but having been calibrated the data produced can be
>trusted more than not on an unfamiliar stellar body, even if the
>data collected is unusual and unexpected. Hynek used the
>preceding as a metaphor for *people* as data collecting
>instruments. Some have been calibrated by their previous
>behavior to be trustworthy instruments and some not... where is
>your evidence that the witnesses (as we have them provided) have
>not demonstrated the requisite proof of calibration? One
>witness, even calibrated, would be inconclusive... even with a
>quality photo to back up his claims. But we have more than
>one... we have at _least_ three and a series of vetted
>photographs.

All of whom were friends in the same underwater photography
club.

>The chances for error are significantly reduced and
>your reluctance to except that... telling.

And they would be even more reduced if we had just one *independent*
witness.

>>>As regards Mr. Clark... he's not been given to bald hyperbole in
>>>the past (he's been a tested instrument of remarkable
>>>calibration to this point) so where is the validation to thinly
>>>suggest that he is now. Moreover, _blown_ out of the water,
>>>would you even admit it, or just set your CSICOPian sights on
>>>another target..."

>>Sorry, you've lost me here; maybe it loses something in the
>>translation.

>I think not, sir! Please see my above paragraph... It's Mr.
>Clark who has demonstrated the requisite calibration for
>investigation, where you own provides evidence for bias,
>occlusion and cant. I trust that's a little clearer?

>>>... Can't take a little good natured ribbing on your lock-kneed
>>>and reactionary worldview? Tsk. Take heart, the mainstream
>>>agrees with you. There are _plenty_ of places you can go for
>>>validation.

I get the bit about calibrating Jerome Clark, would this be
farenheit, centigrade, metric or, if you'll forgive the phrase
(vide infra) Imperial?

>>What's a "tallywacking"? Is it an old colonial sport?

>It's a word describing the cultish behavior of the ignoble lot
>over at CSICOP (Committee for the Seriously Insentient
>Commitment of Obdurate Persons) and has nothing to do with what
>remains of a smoldering resentment endured by me for you guys
>burning our capital to the ground during the War of 1812! <LOL>

Hmm. As you raise the matter, I must point out that this week we
are commemorating the 20th anniversary of US Marines invading
the lovely island of Grenada, an independent nation, the head of
state of which is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. I, of course,
bear no smouldering resentmant.


Yours loyally

John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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   Oct > Oct 26

                               Books For Sale

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:14:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:53:34 -0500
Subject: Books For Sale


UFORQ in Australia has a collection of new and second hand books
for sale. If you are chasing an out of print or hard to find
book it may be listed on their web site at:

www.uforq.asn.au/publications/booksales.html


Sheryl Gottschall

Australian Centre for UFO Studies
www.acufos.asn.au







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                  Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:44:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:02:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Colvin


FWD (fort) Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified

Terry, I've been a skeptic concerning the Eltanin "antenna"
since the very first time I saw or heard of it.

But NOT for the reasons here cited (which I'd first read a few
days back on several other sites, including Larry Hatch's own).

I'd long believed that there was nothing in the least paranormal
about the Eltanin "antenna." It was, I assumed, a piece of
workaday radio-telemetric electronic equipmemt which had been
dropped from or jettisoned by a perfectly-terrestrial ocean-
going vessel of some type or the other, and which had then
proceeded to embed itself upright in the sea floor. Or perhaps
it had even fallen from an aircraft.

Whatever else is said concerning the Eltanin "antenna," it is
ALL RIGHT ANGLES. The "sponge" drawing clearly is NOT.

So I don't see much resemblence between the photograph and the
sketch.

Thus I'm not yet convinced by the "sponge" explanation.


Sincerely,

George Wagner


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com





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   Oct > Oct 26

                  FSR: An Elk Snatched In Washington State

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:18:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:10:36 -0500
Subject: FSR: An Elk Snatched In Washington State


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/1, Spring 2000, pp. 21-23

http://www.fsreview.net

"Who's for Venison, Who's for Pork?"
by Gordon Creighton

"According to reports in the MUFON UFO JOURNAL for May and June
of 1999, a party of forestry workers were engaged, at around
noon on Thursday, February 25, 1999, in planting seedling trees
in the mountainous area of Washington State, USA.

"Not far from them a herd of a dozen or so elk had been grazing
all that morning. Suddenly, three of the workers saw a small
object, apparently disc-shaped, come drifting slowly and
silently overhead, from the south, and descend towards the
valley to the north of them. Its movement appeared to be
'"purposeful"', with a slight '"wobble"'. It was heading towards
the herd of elk, and these animals seemed to be unaware of it
until it was right above them. The herd then began to disperse
and bolt, most of them to the east, one lone female elk running
north, and the UFO promptly lifted her. As it did so, its
'"wobble"' increased momentarily. As the elk rose up under it,
the animal remained upright, slowly rotating beneath the craft.

"By the time that the craft had reached a considerable altitude
it was moving away northwards, and the elk was no longer visible
beneath it, having presumably been drawn aboard, though at no
stage had any of the eyewitnesses observed any aperture or door.

"The rest of the elk herd, say the witnesses, '"remained in the
same area, though more closely huddled than before"'. (Not
surprisingly, the workers admit that they too '"remained closer
to another until their departure from the area at the end of the
workday"'. That such a small object could lift a 500 pound
animal easily had made them only too well aware that it could
have lifted them too!)

"Model of UFO, 5 ft. high, 7 ft. wide.

"From the follow-up enquiry in MUFON JOURNAL for June 1999, we
learn that the party of forest workers were Spanish-speaking.
None of them seem to have had much English, so an interpreter
was required, and whoever took on this job was pretty poor at
it, and although all the members of the party observed the UFO
carrying off the elk, much of the communication was by signs and
body-language.

"As indicated, an average elk, it seems, weights, around 500
lbs, and the witnesses were amazed to see such an animal lifted
by so small a craft - for the wing-span of the abducting UFO was
'"not much longer than the elk - i.e. about 7 - 8 ft"'. And,
from the sketches made, it seems that the abducting craft was
not quite disc-shaped, but had an indentation at the back, and
looked precisely like this: (See sketch.)

"All the witnesses agreed that the UFO '"intermittently showed a
red patch and a white patch on its surface"', as indicated, the
red patch (dull red) on the right and the white patch ('"like
bright enamel paint"'), on the left, on the generally greyish
surface of the craft. The witnesses said that owing to the
craft's '"wobble"' the red and white patches appeared to show up
intermittently.

"This is of course not the first case in which we have heard of
witnesses actually seeing an animal '"off-lifted"'. There have
been a few in connection with the cattle mutilations in the
U.S.A., though I am unable to recall details at the moment.

"Here in Britain we have a very interesting and slightly similar
case, which was reported in FSR 26/3 (1980) in the article
(ital) Four Young Men and a UFO: Terrifying Ordeal Beside a
Cheshire River (/ital). On the evening of January 27th, 1978,
the four English youths (aged 17 - 19) saw a globe-shaped UFO
land, thought by them to be about 15 ft, wide. From the globe
appeared two seemingly normal-sized humanlike entities clad in
silvery one-piece garb, who produced a sort of metal cage and
captured a cow from a nearby herd. The cow, as though mesmerized
-- as it clearly was - just stood there impassively and the
entities proceeded to fit the cage around her. At that point the
youths, feeling it likely they might be in the cage too very
shortly, took to their heels. (As they fled, one of them felt
something very embarrassing indeed, as he later told
researchers. He said he felt something '"tugging him from behind
and pulling on his testicles"'). For a couple of days thereafter
his rear parts were '"red and sore as though from a mild
sunburn"'. (Not highly likely in England in the month of
January).

"We also have quite a number of cases in various other
countries. In an early issue of FSR we mentioned a Brazilian
case, in the area of the River Amazon, in which a local football
champion had disappeared precisely at a time when UFOs had been
very active locally. And pigs had also disappeared. (See also
below for another and more recent Brazilian case involving a
pig.) Likewise from Brazil, in one of his books, the well-known
parapsychologist Guy Playfair of the British Society for
Psychical Research has described a case in which a heifer or a
calf was seen by eyewitnesses as it was being lifted by a light-
 beam.

"Then also we had another Brazilian report in the 1980s from
Mato Grosso State that a horse had been lifted into the air and
taken by a large disc-shaped UFO. According to the Brazilian UFO
researcher Vitorio Pacaccini, the horse could be seen, from far
away, as it was being slowly pulled up into the craft.

"In her immensely important book _Glimpses of other Realities,
High Strangeness, Vol. II_, the renowned U.S. researcher Linda
Moulton Howe has also given several cases of animals being
lifted by UFOs. One notable case, reported by Timothy Flint, a
certified medical assistant, of Portland, Oregon, was a follows:

'"All of a sudden, this light-beam came down from the blue base
of a round, lighted object in the sky - a kind of milky-white
light that I could see right through. And it came down and
surrounded the cow, and she started to levitate. She went stiff,
and her head popped up, and her eyes were wide open, and her
tongue sticking out. And she went"'. (Flint reported that he had
made this observation while himself undergoing an abduction --
 which certainly makes it highly unusual!).

"Finally, (according to MUFON UFO JOURNAL, December 1999) there
has been yet another pig abduction in Brazil - this time
observed by 50 eyewitnesses!

"According to the report (Jornal da Tarde, Sao Paulo) the
eyewitnesses said that '"a bright light, shaped like a VW Beetle
automobile, hovered above the little town of Sena Maduera, in
the remote Sate of Acre (far N.W. corner of Brazil) where there
had of late been many UFO sightings. This event happened on July
12, (1999?), at about 10 pm. According to Lt. Wesley Rocha,
Commandant of the local Military Police Headquarters, the total
number of people who saw the pig going up was "'more than 50'".

"NOTE. One is always tempted to try to make light of this kind
of report by using - as I have done - headlines of a hilarious
nature suggesting that the UFOs are carrying out their patrols
in search of a tasty meal.

"But let us not be captivated by such charming illusions. It is
far, far more probable that the aliens, well aware of the nature
of coming events here, are simply engaged in another "'Noah's
Ark Operation'"(?), and are therefore accumulating stocks of
human sperm and eggs, along with vast numbers of specimens and
seed from the fauna and flora and all the life-forms of our
planet. G.C.


--
Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@frontiernet.net






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                     FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:21:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:13:12 -0500
Subject: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 18-21

Victim Mentality In Abductees: An Unacceptable Concept.
An Essay by Ann Druffel, (California), FSR Consultant

[This article was first published in the MUFON UFO JOURNAL for
May 2000, and has been revised slightly by the author for the
overseas issue in FSR - Editor FSR.]

In August 1998 my most recent book, HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF
AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION, was published by Three Rivers Press, a
"How To" division of Random House, followed closely by a U.K.
edition in November 1998 from Piatkus Publishers Limited. Better
publishers could not have been found - the finest editors and
class-act books which covered twenty-five years of personal
research on the UFO abduction phenomenon. For a year afterward,
and continuing full speed today, the book receives publicity on
radio and TV. It has been reviewed favourably in numerous UFO
and parapsychology journals, and in newstand magazines in the
U.S. and the U.K.

In spite of the fact that the new concept presented in the book
is of supreme importance to the UFO field, certain influential
UFO researchers have remained strangely silent. This is in stark
contrast to favourable reviews by top objective researchers -
 Dwight Connelly in MUFON UFO JOURNAL, Jennie Zeidman in
INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER, Tim Owens and Paul Norman in
AUSTRALIAN UFO NEWSLETTER, Gordon Creighton in FLYING SAUCER
REVIEW among others.

During a magic 2.5 hours with Art Bell on COAST TO COAST, I
fielded intelligent questions from numerous listeners and will
presently appear on DREAMLAND with Whitley Strieber. All this
demonstrates the interest in the subject of "resisters" who
successfully tell the abduction phenomenon, whatever it is, to
go away and quit bothering them.

Many abduction researchers in various countries have sent
letters of agreement and encouragement, and my data base of
"resisters" grows rapidly as many abductees continue to share
their experiences, containing approximately 100 cases to date.
Yet a few top abduction researchers continue to ignore the new
concept and message in the book, namely, that stout-hearted
witnesses and abductees can and do fend off so-called "UFO
aliens", and even permanently rid themselves of the visitations.

In conversation at the annual Laramie Conference last year with
a well-known author and abduction researcher, he told me that he
came across "resisters" in his case load but did not elaborate
how he handled this information. I know for a fact that other
researchers come across resisters, but these cases somehow never
make it into print. Do these particular researchers dismiss
"resisters" because they don't fit in with their own hypotheses?
If so, I feel that this attitude is unscientific. In science,
don't we work with all data that comes to us from rational,
honest sources and not try to "screen out" what is unacceptable
to us?

Curious as to why certain researchers have been ignoring the new
concept and message in HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST ALIEN
ABDUCTION, I recently sent friendly letters, copies of the book
and related bio/resume/bibliographical material to four of those
who had been so silent, with a simple request for feedback and
input. None of the four responded. Their silence was so
deafening that it allowed valuable insight to seep into my brain
- information which seems so startling that I feel impelled to
share it with you. Namely: Certain factors in the UFO field
apparently *do not want* instances of successful resistance to
come out. If they ignore the book and its new concept, will they
perhaps not be tempted to try to advise their own traumatized
abductees that resistance may be possible?

Perhaps they do not believe that resistance works and so don't
want abductees to even consider it for fear they will "fail" and
emerge doubly traumatized? Or do they perhaps sincerely believe
that experiencers have *no right* to resist? What other reasons
would prevent researchers from learning vital, new information
about a phenomenon on which they have laboured for decades?

All four "silent" researchers I refer to are Americans working
mainly with American abductees. I do not know if any researchers
in the U.K. share these thoughts, but practically nothing has
been written in overseas journals, either, about successful
resistance. Do researchers truly feel that the abduction
phenomenon is so overpowering that it is able to overthrow the
principles of freedom on which democracies and republics
worldwide were founded - the same principles of freedom from
fear and oppression which guide our everyday lives?

Do these researchers really believe that self-determination,
right of privacy and other principles of individual freedom no
longer apply? Do they truly think that we are now in the hands
(or claws) of whitish, frail, large-eyed humanoids whose source
is, at best, uncertain? What kind of nonsense is this? I think
it is "nonsense" being fed to us by the phenomenon itself,
whatever it is.

Where in the great works of history, philosophy, and theology
does it say that other orders of beings can tamper with us,
guide our destinies or are responsible for us in any way? Say
what you will, authors like Von Daniken and Sitchin are not the
equivalent of Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Muhammad, Buddha
and other world thinkers, (not to mention one other who is held
to be far greater than any of these! -G.C.).

The theories put forth by these top-profile abduction
researchers are conspicuously contradictory, but they do not
seem to recognize this among themselves. There is a "oneness"
among them which is difficult to understand. Some of them
theorize (or are actually convinced) that extraterrestrial
creatures are hybridizing humans against their will so that they
can take over our planet.

Others theorize (or are convinced) that these creatures are
somehow responsible, in the great order of things, for evolving
the human race and bringing us to "higher spirituality"? These
gentler thinkers do not explain why the creatures first
traumatize victims with unpleasant interactions, then eventually
lead the abductees to "love" them. According to this theory, the
creatures' painful interference is really "good" for the human
race, and abductees should go along with it because the
creatures "know what is best for us."!

TWO SEPARATE PHENOMENA? The data is overwhelming that
unidentified, possible extraterrestrial, craft seem to be
monitoring mankind. These demonstrably physical UFOs reported by
credible witnesses constitute a serious scientific question
which has regrettably been covered up by governments and ignored
by official Science.

THE REAL "UFOs". However, in my considered opinion, UFO
phenomena can be separated into two separate groups:

Craft-like UFOs which are caught on radar, chased by jet pilots,
and sometimes photographed, appear to be physical in our earth's
space-time, but in these cases little or no interaction with any
"occupants" is noted.

So-called "alien abductions", on the other hand, generally take
place in altered states of consciousness and are retrieved in
large part through hypnotic regression.

Claims of "genetic manipulation", "missing foetuses", "implants"
and "alien-military co-operation" lack solid, scientific proof
of extraterrestrial involvement, although I concede that some
so-called "implants", "scars" and the like *might* be due to the
creatures' ability to materialize temporarily into our space-
time.

But the proliferation and escalation of abduction claims seem
more likely caused by (1) telepathic leakage during hypnosis
between witnesses and hypnotist/researchers; and (2)
psychological deception by the phenomenon itself.

The logical question to all this is: Why is the trauma
necessary? If these creatures are really "in charge of us" why
don't they approach us with kind logic from the beginning?
Another logical question: As an American, I have to ask:
Whatever happened to our individual rights of self-determination
and liberty?

The same question can be logically asked by citizens of many
other countries. To me, both theories in the UFO field outlined
above consider these creatures to be "in charge of us".

This idea contradicts the principles of freedom of the
individual. It flies in the face of the American "Declaration of
Independence", the English "Magna Carta", the French Revolution
and every other instance in which a nation of free-thinking
peoples have emerged from rag-tag armies of revolutionaries or
serfs.

If any reader thinks I am emphasizing "human rights" too much,
consider this: Police detectives who investigate horrible cases
of rape, for example, do not think of our "inalienable rights."
They are simply outraged by the immoral act that has been
perpetrated upon the victims.

Alien abduction scenarios are basically the same as rape and
other criminal attacks. The fact that they take place in an
altered state of consciousness does not matter here. Abduction
scenarios are very real to the experiencers; they constitute a
type of *altered reality*, the effects of which extends into
their physical lives.

The nine resistance techniques described in HOW TO DEFEND
YOURSELF_ enable traumatized experiencers to break the altered
state of consciousness in which abduction scenarios occur. Once
the altered state is broken and the person returns to full
waking consciousness, the creatures vanish and the scenario
ends.

My book gives multiple examples of actual documented case
studies which illustrate in detail the way in which the
techniques are used successfully, and it also describes the
psychological concepts and personality traits which seem to be
involved in successful resistance.

I might gratefully add that Dr. Edgar J. Mitchell, U.S.
astronaut and sixth man to walk on the Moon, endorses my book on
the cover thus: "This is a very powerful book because it shows
the deep psychological component of the UFO experience.
Druffels' research does us all a great service." As the founder
of the Institute of Noetic Sciences and author of THE WAY OF THE
EXPLORER, Dr. Mitchell's statement was gratefully received.

THE JINNS, SIDHE, FAIRIES, ELEMENTALS, etc. HOW TO DEFEND
YOURSELF AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION also presents a working
hypothesis to explain why resistance techniques work so well
against entities which present themselves as technologically
superior extra-extraterrestrials. The hypothesis is this:

Abductees are possibly interacting with interdimensional beings
which have been described in philosophical, historical and
regligious writings, and in folklore and legend, from every
major culture of the world and in minor cultures as well.

These beings reportedly delight in harrassing and deceiving
human beings, often in a sexual manner. Specific examples are
the "jinns" described in the Koran, the Celtic "Sidhe" or "faery
folk", the "incubi" of Europe, the "Old Hag" in Newfoundland and
the "elementals" in Buddhist cultures.

They are also known by many other names in many different
languages. They are described in Malaysia and Indonesia, in
Iceland, by the aboriginals of Australia and by various Native
American tribes. Because these beings reportedly have the
ability to shapeshift, it is surmised that they have now taken
on a form which would logically frighten even modern,
technically-advanced human beings.

The creatures reported in folklore and legends, *as well as in
present-day accounts*, have at least eight characteristics in
common with our so-called "UFO alien abductors". All of them
reportedly:-

1. Materialize and de-materialize; 2. Harass human beings,
frequently in a sexual manner; 3. Reportedly "steal" human
babies and/or unborn foetuses; 4. Distort the witnesses'
perception of time; 5. Pass through solid matter; 6. Enter
temporarily into Earth space-time, sometimes leaving physical
traces; 7. Shape-shift into various forms and sizes including,
at times, animals; 8. Exist normally on what is described as a
"hidden plane" which co-exists alongside our normal earthly
space-time.

All these world cultures have developed means to resist these
creatures, and many of their techniques are similar to the
techniques used by the seventy-two (72) resisters described in
my book. So why shouldn't abductees in modern cultures be able
to fend them off as well? The answer? -They can, and they do.

It is crucial that adequate attention be given to the concept of
successful resistance. "Resisters" are able to live happy,
productive lives, free of the trauma and other negative effects
caused by their prior experiences.

The concept of resistance is spreading: Several research sources
are speaking about it on the Internet, and letters from a few
researchers who have begun to teach resistance techniques to
abductees are passing over my desk. I would hope that a
continuing dialogue on the subject will be started in FLYING
SAUCER REVIEW to counteract the silence of the few colleagues
aforementioned.

HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION gives detailed
case examples and practical pointers to persons experiencing
abduction trauma and lets them know that they are not helpless
victims. Free people around the world should not have to feel
that they are victims of anyone or anything.

Human beings are neither: (1) victims being taken over against
their will; nor (2) frail creatures who need help in being
evolved.

Human beings everywhere can, with bold assurance, fight against
anything we need to fight against, and win!

--
Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@frontiernet.net







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   Oct > Oct 26

                              FSR: More Planets

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:24:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:17:23 -0500
Subject: FSR: More Planets


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/4, Winter 2000, p. 16
New web site (still in frames though):

http://www.fsreview.net

More Planets
by Gordon Creighton

I. EXTERNAL

In FSR 45/2 mention was made of recently discovered planets
outside of our own Solar System. In May of this year European
astronomers using the European astronomers using the European
Southern Observatory (ESO) at La Silla (Chile) announced the
finding of eight more "probables" orbiting around other stars in
our Galaxy, *thus taking the total so far to 43*. [For full
information please see the website of the ESO:

http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-2000/pr-13-00.html


One of them, around a star in the Constellation of Scutum,
appeared to have about 80% of the mass of our Saturn, and also
to be one of the smallest of these newly found planets. Two
others, a bit bigger than Saturn, were found orbiting around
star No. HD83443 in the Constellation of Vela, and around star
No. HD 108147 in the Constellation of Crux.

Three others are considerably larger. One of them, orbiting
around star No. HD 52265, in the Constellation of Monoceros,
appears to be about the same size as our Jupiter. Another,
around star No. 82943 in the Constellation of Hydra is 2.2 times
the size of Jupiter, while one more, orbiting around star
169830, in the Constellation of Sagittarius, is almost three
times the size of Jupiter!

I recall the very interesting work, in the early 1950s, of the
American astronomer [Frank] Drake, who claimed to have found
evidence that about 50% of the stars in our own Galaxy were
spinning at far greater speeds than the other 50%. And this, he
theorized, might be explicable by the fact that older stars
would, in the natural course of their evolution, have developed
little families of planets which would inevitably act as
"brakes" and slow them down. Does it all indicate that this
pioneer, Drake, was right in his theorizing?

II. "DOMESTIC" In October 1999 there was excitement over reports
that two different astronomical research teams had stated that
they have evidence which seems to confirm the old tales or
rumours of an enormous new "planet-like-body" lying far beyond
the orbit of Pluto and possibly orbiting our Solar System at a
distance of 3 trillion miles (half a light year).

Discussing this, Dr. John Murray of the British Open University
says he has been studying incoming comets which seem to have
been ejected from the extremely remote Oort Cloud by some
powerful gravitational force.

He has analysed 13 of these comets in detail and he says: "I
feel the effect is pretty conclusive. I have calculated that
there is only about a one in 1,700 chance that this is in fact
'all due to chance'!"

In his report to the Royal Astronomical Society he suggested
that this so-far unseen great planet is "several times the size
of Jupiter". And he says a queer thing about it is that it seems
to be orbiting our Sun "in the wrong direction - contrary to the
orbit of all known planets.

This could mean that the huge object may be a so-called 'rogue
planet' that has drifted in from very Deep Space and has been
captured by the gravity of our Sun!"

Physicists John Matese, Daniel Whitmire and Patrick Whitman, all
of the University of Louisiana (Lafayette), have separately
arrived at similar conclusions, and their findings are to be
published in a future issue of *Icarus*.

In his own part of the study Dr. John Matese says the new
arrival may be a "*brown dwarf*", and he estimates its mass at
three times that of Jupiter.


G.C.

--
Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@frontiernet.net








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              FSR: Huge 'Alien Frogmen' in Central Asian Lakes

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:28:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:22:08 -0500
Subject: FSR: Huge 'Alien Frogmen' in Central Asian Lakes


Flying Saucer Review, Vol 46/1, Spring 2001, pp. 18 and 19

Mysterious Huge "Alien Frogmen" in Central Asian Lakes!
by Paul Stonehill

Note on Paul Stonehill.

[In my article "UFOs in the Soviet Waters", in FSR 44/1 (1999),
I gave an account of the book *The Soviet Files: Paranormal
Encounters Behind the Iron Curtain* (ISBN 1-85833-858-1) by Paul
Stonehill, the Ukranian-born (Kiev) investigator who founded the
Russian UFO Research Centre at Tarzana, California.

Born in 1966, and so today aged 34, Mr. Stonehill tells us that
he first became filled with the desire to explore the UFO
mystery when, just 8 years old (1972), he met a retired Soviet
pilot who told the boy how, when flying over the Russian Arctic
regions, he had once seen a disk-shaped craft that followed him
and his crew so closely that finally they had opened fire on it.
 One year later (1973) Stonehill's parents left the USSR and
took the boy to the U.S.A. and adopted their less "Russian-
sounding" new surname.

In my article under reference (in FSR 44/1) I gave a summary of
some of Stonehill's researches on the Soviet experience with
UFOs under the seas.

NOTE: Paul Stonehill reports that he is now planning to write a
book in collaboration with Philip Mantle.  G.C.]

Notes on Paul Stonehill's article.

[On page 15 of FSR 44/1 (1999), at the close of Paul Stonehill's
article on the "UFOs in the Soviet Waters", we gave the
following brief item about *another* Russian mystery - *not in
the oceans, but in the lakes of Russian-controlled Central
Asia!*:-

"A man named D. Povaliyayev was hang-gliding one day in the
early 1990s above the town of Kavgolov in the Leningrad area.
 The region has many lakes, and in one of these lakes he
observed what seemed to be "three gigantic fish".  He descended
in order to get a closer view, and was able to observe "swimmers
in silvery garb".  He mentioned this episode in a book written
by him - "LETUCHI GOLLANDETS" ("The Flying Dutchman") -
 published in Russia in 1995.

In that particular area of Northern Russia there have been many
UFO sightings."

Further and Fuller Report.

In continuation of this strange new phenomenon, "Alien Lake
Frogmen", in Russian Ufology - certainly I myself had previously
never heard of such a thing - I now give below a further and
fuller report which Mr. Stonehill has just sent to us, and which
describes weird great "alien frogmen" allegedly seen in, or
reported from, several of the lakes in Soviet Central Asia, in
the early 1980s, and only recently researched by him.  G.C.]

Paul Stonehill's New Article. Russian Underwater Encounters:
What Lurks Beneath the Surface of the Lakes?

In the autumn of 1982, a Soviet Army officer, Mark Shteynberg,
and a Lt. Col. Gennady Zverev, were conducting periodic training
sessions of military reconnaissance divers ("frogmen") from the
Turkestan and Central Asian Military Regions.  The training
exercises had been taking place in ISSYK KUL (Lat. 42 degrees
30N., Long. 77 degrees 30E), a deep lake in the Transiliysk Ala
Tau area, Kyrgyzia.

One day, totally unexpectedly, these officers received a visit
by a very senior officer, Major-General V. Demyanko, Commander
of the military Diver Service of the Engineer Forces of the USSR
Ministry of Defence.

He had come to inform them of an extraordinary event that had
recently occurred during similar diving exercises by military
frogmen in the huge Lake Baikal, (Lat. 51 degrees 00N, Long. 108
degrees E, some 1,500 miles to the north-east, in the far
eastern Trans-Baikal area of Siberia, and also in other lakes
(not named) in Western Siberia.

In those lakes, during their diving exercises, the men had
encountered mysterious "underwater swimmers, very human-like,
but huge in size (almost 3m. in height!)"

These beings were clad in tight-fitting silvery suits, despite
the icy cold temperatures of the lake waters.  They encountered
the "mystery swimmers" at a depth of 50m.  The strangers had no
scuba diving equipment ("aqualungs"), nor any other detectable
equipment, apart from sphere-like helmets on their heads.

Alarmed at this situation, the local Military Commander at Lake
Baikal decided to try to capture one of the entities, and sent
an officer and a squad of seven divers with a net to do the job.

When however, the seven Soviet frogmen attempted to net a
"Visitor", the entire group of seven divers were flung up out of
the lake by a powerful force.  When returning from such a depth,
it was essential for the men to be decompressed, and this is a
slow process that has to be strictly followed.

The seven men were severely ill as a result, with aeroembolism -
 Caisson disease, and a compression chamber was at once
essential for every one of them.

In the Baikal area the authorities had several such chambers,
but only one was in working order, and it could contain only two
men at a time.

The local commanding officer tried to put four of them into the
chamber at once, and the result was that 3 of the divers,
including their leader, died, and the other 4 were left as
permanent invalids, - the terrible consequences of
characteristic Soviet inefficiency and bungling.

The Major-General was now rushing to Issyk Kul to warn the local
military, lest any similar rash acts should occur.  (Issyk Kul
is a great deal shallower than Lake Baikal, but nevertheless the
authorities evidently felt that such beings might be there.  Or
maybe they even knew this as a fact.  Did the Major-General
already know something?).

A short time later, the Headquarters of the Soviet Military
Region of Turkmenistan received an order from the Commander-in-
Chief of the Soviet Armed Forces.  It gave a detailed account
and analysis of the Baikal episode, and was supplemented by an
information bulletin issued by the Headquarters of the
Engineering Forces of the Soviet Ministry of Defence.

This bulletin listed numerous other deep-water lakes where there
had been "anomalous phenomena": sightings of underwater
creatures similar to those seen in Lake Baikal; the descent or
the surfacing of gigantic discs and spheres into or from the
lakes; powerful luminescence emanating from the depths, etc.,
etc.

The purpose of these documents, in all cases highly classified,
"for eyes only" of a very limited circle of senior military
officers, was stated to be "to obviate the occurrence of
unnecessary encounters"!



Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA
fortean1@mindspring.com






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             FSR: Confirmation Of Important U.S. Naval Sighting

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:31:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:26:03 -0500
Subject: FSR: Confirmation Of Important U.S. Naval Sighting


[Warning:  includes testimony (speculation) on Space Shuttle
videos showing alleged UFO and SDI activity - TWC]

Flying Saucer Review [FSR], Vol. 46/2, Summer 2001, pp. 17-20
[FSR is published in England]

Confirmation of an Important U.S. Naval [UFO] Sighting.

by Gordon Creighton.

Five years ago (in FSR 40/3, autumn 1995) we gave Mr. Chester C.
Grusinski's account of the day when, in 1958, serving aboard the
American aircraft carrier *USS Franklin D. Roosevelt*, he and
many other U.S. Navy men observed the close approach of a huge
'cigar-shaped' UFO during their cruise off the American Naval
Base at Guantanamo on the island of Cuba. Shapes of beings - not
human - were seen inside the UFO. [An asterisk (*) indicates
italics]

Since the night Mr. Gusinski, now of Clinton Township, Michigan,
has never ceased in his efforts to find other witnesses of that
episode for - as he said in his report - there were *at least 25
other men on the flight deck* with him who *must have seen it*.

As Grusinski told us, CIA men immediately came aboard and a
massive cover-up started, with all crewmen who had knowledge of
the sighting or who talked about it being immediately
transferred out of the *USS Franklin D. Roosevelt* and allocated
to other ships or jobs in the Navy.

According to an interesting and lengthy report by John Baugham
now published in a journal named *The Broad Top Bulletin*, dated
December 26, 2000, (evidently this is an old comrades'
association journal for those who served on the American
carriers) one such witness who has come forward to confirm
Grusinski's statements is Harry A. Jordan, now of Omaha NE, who
served aboard the *U.S.S. F.D.R.* from 1962 to 1965.

Throughout the years since 1958, Grusinski, as he has already
told us, continued his research, and had discovered that the
*F.D.R.* had been involved in a second UFO incident in 1956, and
in yet further incidents in the 1960s.

The *F.D.R.* was finally decommissioned in 1977.  Later, via the
Freedom of Information Act, Grusinski secured a copy of the
ship's deck logs for 1958 and 1959.  And, he says, he found that
"*a lot of information was blackened out*".

Here is Harry Jordan's continuation of the story, as given in
Lucius Farish's Newsclipping service, in a letter from him to
Grusinski in August last.  Jordan it seems, just like Grusinski,
had been searching ever since 1958 to contact other ex-crew
members who had witnessed the same incident, and he had found
Grusinski' name on a posting on a Canadian website.

Jordan's statement to Grusinski reads:- "In late 1963, aboard
the *F.D.R.*, during my mid-watch on radar, off the coast of
Sardinia in the Mediterranean, I detected a very large UFO.  *I
was subsequently told in no uncertain terms to keep my mouth
shut for 20 years.*

"In summer 1998 I gave the Senate Intelligence Committee an
affidavit concerning that experience.  During that particular
cruise there were several photographers aboard to document the
NATO Naval Operations in which we were engaged, and they were
present on the ship on the night in question."

(The complete text of Jordan's statement can be downloaded by
going to <
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/witnesses/jordan.html >).

>From 1961 to 1965 Jordan served in the Operations Intelligence
Division on three other U.S. warships as an expert on display,
analysis, reporting, and recording of radar, radio and
electronic emission data, and for this he had received extensive
training at the Naval Station, Newport, Rhode Island.  So,
clearly he *was a specialist.*

Whilst aboard the *F.D.R.* he had served on two cruises in the
Mediterranean, between 1962 and 1964.  After discharge from
active duty he then worked as an instructor at Jones Point Naval
Reserve, Alexandria, VA [Virginia], on the use of navigational
equipment particular to radar intelligence, and thus he was an
expert in this field too.  He had served as a recognition expert
on detecting surface or air objects at as far away as 300 miles.
 He had trained both enlisted men and naval officers.


JORDAN'S TESTIMONY BEFORE A U.S. SENATE UFO HEARING (SUMMER
1998).

He is Jordan's first-hand account at the Hearing:- "Late one
night in the fall of 1963, while operating off the coast of
Sardinia at approximately 0200 hrs. Zulu Time, I was standing
mid-watch on a SPA-8 repeater and height-finding equipment.  My
JFF box was enabled, and in the process of challenging an aerial
contact approaching the ship from a bearing of 012 degrees
relative to our course.

"The aerial contact was detected at 600 miles according to the
calibration rings on my scope.  I made several adjustments to
the calibration settings because I didn't believe I could detect
such a contact at that distance. The aerial contact was at a
height of 80,000 ft., then dropped in about 20 seconds to 65,000
ft. where the contact then hovered for about 10 minutes.

"During this period the watch-officer awoke the Division
Commander and informed him of our situation.  U.S. Naval Task
Forces operating in the Mediterranean in those days were being
subjected to frequent fly-overs by Russian *Bear* aircraft with
electronic warfare capability. It was my job to stay alert for
such a scenario.

"The Division Commander came into CIC, observed the radar
returns, expedited his own ECM scan of the contact, and then
informed the orderly standing watch at the Captain's stateroom.
 The Captain was apprised of the situation, ordered a course
change into the wind, increased the ship's speed and gave order
to launch aircraft.  During this time I was continuing to
observe the contact, and watched our *Phantom F4Bs* once they
had attained sufficient altitude.  The *Phantoms* went to after-
burners vectoring to a course straight for the *bogey* on my
scope.

"After a period of about 15-20 minutes the *F4Bs* were within
200 miles of the *bogey*, due north of our course.  They turned
on their conical scan radar, and the *bogey* disappeared from my
scope.  The pilots did not detect any contact on their own
scopes, and were turned by the Air Ops C.O. and headed back to
the ship.  The Captain had kept the ship on a heading into the
wind during this entire operation so that aircraft could be
launched or recovered at will.  The *Phantoms* returned to the
ship and were recovered.

About five minutes after the recovery of the last aircraft, and
during the process of turning the ship back to our original
course, the contact "winked back on" again!  *This time it
closed in from a distance of 600 miles from the ship to right
above us, in about one minute! The bogey* was travelling at
around 3,600 miles an hour at an altitude of 30,000 ft.  I never
saw any heat signature.

"Someone in C.I.C. yelled out: "*Damn it - what the hell is
that!*" I coudln't determine who it was that made that comment.
 Lookouts on the port and starboard lookout wings of the conning
tower could not see anything above the ship with their
binoculars.  *The situation was bizarre, and the watch personnel
looked scared but calm*.

"Watch-logs are always kept, particularly when a critical
situation is under way.  "General Quarter" practice drills are
another matter - *but this wasn't a practice drill.  The Captain
had not called "General Quarters".

"I recall vividly when it was first determined how unusual the
situation had been.  My Division C.O. (Commander Gibson, USN)
asked me what, if anything, I had put in my log.  He said to me
"*Jordan, this never happened*".  (I was reminded of that
comment later when I first saw the movie "*RED OCTOBER*").  I
replied to him: "*Yes, Sir*".

"*I never mentioned anything to fellow-sailors, or to anyone
else, until years after my Honourable Discharge from the Navy*.
 I was Honourably Discharged in December 1967, at Jones Point
Naval Training Centre in Alexandria, Virginia.

"On watch that night were a plotter on the DRT, one on the VG,
myself on the radarscope, and the watch-officer.  *It was my
distinct impression from hearing the airmen aboard during "chow-
time" that they were confused about why the heck they would have
such an unscheduled launch and not be told what had been going
on that night.  It was their duty to arm aircraft, etc.  To me
it was obvious that they had been 'kept in the dark' on this one
operation.  I myself never said anything to them (the airmen)
about what had happened that night.*

"I myself have stood lookout watch by night and by day during my
period of active duty.  I have logged well over 1,000 hours of
operating radar equipment and standing watch during my active
duty with the Sixth Fleet. What I experienced that night will
never be forgotten.  And what I have experienced since my
discharge from active duty has become ever more fascinating as
the years have progressed." (End of quotation).


MORE TESTIMONY

But that was not quite the end, for Jordan had some other
interesting comments for the Senators at the hearing in summer
1998, as quoted here:-

"In 1985 I met Dr. John Kasher, a Physics professor at the
University of Nebraska, Omaha.  He was a consultant at Lawrence
Livermore Labs in California and is at present a summer
consultant on plasma physics at Huntsville for NASA.  He is
currently the State Director for the MUFON Network of Nebraska.
 He and I have personally investigated over 50 cases related to
UFOs.  These cases involve people from age 5 to the 70s.

"We have video tapes of private interviews, physical trace
cases, and lab reports.  Some of these cases involved events
that occurred on the ground simultaneously with STS-NASA
missions.  There are uncut, unenhanced video tapes produced by
live-real-time NASA select 6 camera shots taken aboard the
Space-Shuttle.

"*At present* the cameras aboard the Shuttle are monitored, the
video signals are delayed several seconds, and sometimes
minutes, before being fed into public video-feed networks.
 Immediately after the STS-48 mission UFO flap in which Dr.
Kasher and I were involved, NASA began to delay the live-feed.

"Their premise for altering the video coverage of each mission
was that they didn't want the world to be privy to the medical
condition of the astronauts.  This is pure hogwash, as NEVER has
the medical condition of the astronauts been public knowledge
through video monitoring to public channels.  We have a copy of
the original NASA directive which went out from NASA to all
ground facilities on the day after STS-48 - the day of the UFO
flap.

"The UFOs which currently are flying on station when the Shuttle
is up are being fired upon by high performance aircraft using
state-of-the-art particle beam weapons.  The very character of a
particle-beam does not need an atmosphere to be seen, it imparts
its own coherence upon the vacuum of space.  We have video tapes
of STS-missions as recent as STS-80 during the month of March
1997, wherein one can clearly see these beams coming up from the
Earth through the cloud-cover below the Space Shuttle.

"What concerns us most here, from our personal field experience,
is that out of all our private interviews (50) with
eyewitnesses, not one instance of a negative or a sordid nature
has been told to us.  [But isn't 50 only a very small total?
G.C.]  Virtually all close encounters on the ground have been
very passive, bizarre, and extraordinary to ordinary people -
 whatever "ordinary" means these days is another matter.

"It is with great concern for our fellow-Americans and citizens
of the world at large that we question the reasons why UFOs are
being fired upon.  What the Federal Government of the United
States of America knows about UFOs is not being shared.  I
question the current status of this posture and the reasoning
behind it.  These matters might well be beyond the knowledge of
the Senate, Congress, and perhaps even of the President of the
United States.

"If public hearing were held regarding these scenarios there
would be some red faces at the Pentagon and NASA regarding the
UFO issue and the reality of their occupants.  Many decent law-
abiding Americans have had real experience, and are prepared to
come forward to share proofs. The truth needs to be brought
forward without further hesitation". (End of quotations.)


NOTE BY EDITOR OF FSR.

I feel absolutely sure that everyone who reads this statement
will agree that *unquestionably* Chester Grusinski and Harry
Jordan have given us an astonishing - and no doubt, so far as it
goes - a remarkably accurate picture of what happened on certain
occasions when an American aircraft carrier was seemingly
visited and inspected at very close quarters by a large UFO.

On the other hand, what I think most of us will strongly doubt
is whether, *ALL* UFO influences are so benign - as Mr. Jordan
appears to think - and whether or not one can say that the
authorities of the United States are doing the wrong thing in
continuing - as they apparently *are* doing - to keep the entire
problem so much "under wraps", and also to shoot at UFOs with
particle beams.

As FSR readers will already know, my own opinion on this prickly
question is that, while we now have a very great deal of
evidence of *seeming* benevolence (or also of seeming
*unconcern*) on the part of many of the so-called "*Aliens*", we
appear to have an even larger volume of evidence that points in
a different direction.  *My own firm conclusion therefore is
that it would be premature to come to hard and firm theories in
one direction or the other.  The Government may indeed be
utterly right in their policy of silence*.  As for the constant
howls of these who claim that the Governments ought to "come
clean with all the facts" tomorrow morning, I doubt whether many
would be found to be exultant over the findings if they got
them"!

As I have emphasised many times, one of the principal reasons
for the alleged current 'apathy' of the British public towards
matters ufological is that *in truth the situation is possibly
controlled by three 'don't wants': firstly, we can assume that
the aliens (or at any rate a very large part of them, however
numerous their species may be) clearly don't want us to know
what they are up to here.  Secondly, the governments - whether
or not they are 'under alien control' - also don't want us to
know what the aliens are up to.  And, thirdly, it is patently
clear that the vast majority of humans themselves also do not
want to know what the aliens are up to here (and I admit that
personally I think it highly likely that, with their powerful
telepathic force, the aliens **themselves** are the direct cause
of this apathy and disinterest - in other words, a very smart
policy!).

If the public really did want to know the truth about UFOs, then
FSR's readership would be enormous, and not be - as it is at
present - heading fast towards vanishing point.

And one sees little likelihood of a change in this situation.
[Credit and thanks to Lucius Farish's UFO Newsclipping Service
No. 379.  G.C. February 2001]

--
Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Oct > Oct 26

                       FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:37:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:27:50 -0500
Subject: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/3, Autumn 2001, pp. 13 - 17

New Documents "Will Revolutionize UFOlogy"!
by Alfredo Lissoni

Translation from Italian. G.C. April 9, 2001 (*Il Giornale dei
Misteri*,
No. 353, March 2001)

The discovery of some documents from the fascist era of Italy
opens up new horizons for research on UFOs, and compels students
of this subject to amend the official history of the flying
saucers.  Under "Il Duce", Mussolini, there was a secret
government commission of enquiry, known as the RS/33 cabinet,
which studied the UFOs.

The story of the newly discovered "Italian Fascist UFO files"
had its start in 1996, when an anonymous person (whom we shall
call "MR. X") began sending, to various central and local
organizations, documents - both originals and photostats -
relating to a series of UFO sightings which had occurred over
Italy during the 1930s and 1940s.  The communications, which had
emanated from various regions in Italy, and even in France, were
all rigorously anonymous and unsigned.

One of the first packages was addressed to the Bologna daily
newspaper *Il Resto del Carlino*, and *contained a bulky dossier
of 34 photocopied pages covering various UFO sightings in the
regions of Italy between 1933 and 1940 - some of them in fact
reports from the Royal Italian Air Force, with the
recommendation "SAY NOTHING TO IL DUCE"!

One of the newspaper's editors, thinking it was all a joke,
assigned a reporter to conduct an enquiry in quarters that were
involved with secret prototypes (domestic) but the results were
nil, and so the material was never published, and ended up in
the waste-paper basket.

Then a second series of missives, in three different packages,
posted in March-April 1996, were sent by "MR. X" to the top
Italian ufologist Dr. Roberto Pinotti, Director of the Italian
UFO research journal NOTIZIARIO UFO (and long-term FSR
Consultant !).

These three packages contained original materials which were
examined in 1999 by the chemist Antonio Garavaglia from Como,
and were assessed by him as being authentic and datable to 1936.
These were papers and documents, and included an envelope marked
"*for the hands of Ciano*". (Ciano, son-in-law of Mussolini, was
the Foreign Minister of Italy). There was also a memorandum
about a meeting of a new thing called the "RS/33 CABINET", plus
a long letter about "*the sighting of a flying cigar over the
regions of Venice and Mestre on the morning of August 17,
1936*".

This incident was graphically reconstructed on two pages,
showing a "cigar" - described as "torpedo-shaped" - along with
two spheres beside it, one of which resembled the planet Saturn,
being pursued by a fighter aircraft.  It was an *original
document* - not a copy - about a UFO sighting *ante litteram* -
LONG BEFORE THE SUBJECT OF UFOS EXISTED! (More than ten years
before Kenneth Arnold. G.C.)

The Italian National UFO Centre (C.U.N., Centro Ufologico
Nazionale), whose Secretary-General (Pinotti) had been the
recipient of the material, decided to file it away for the time
being until a deeper analysis, or fresh evidence, might be able
to establish its authenticity.  A long time passed. In
particular the search for the eyewitnesses of the episode was
fruitless. The document had indicated *three names*, all of
which were now untraceable. Then finally a C.U.N. member managed
to secure the testimony of a relative, FAUSTINO V -
(unfortunately deceased shortly afterwards), but who had
confirmed that he had been present and had seen the incredible
thing flying over Venice.

And this story and the material continued right up until the end
of 1999, when "MR. X", seeing that his own efforts were
definitely being ignored and nothing was appearing in the press,
turned his attention to the "Contactee" UFO journal *UFO, La
Visita Extraterrestre*, published by the famous stigmatist
Giorgio Bongiovanni.  "MR. X" sent to Bongiovanni further
material which made it permissible to arrive at a rather more
articulated reconstruction for the simple UFO sighting reports.

The first batch of material sent had consisted of a series of
coloured photocopies: three telegrams from the Milan office of
the STEFANI AGENCY (the Fascist A.N.S.A.), which gave
instructions, *on the order of Il Duce Mussolini*, to recuperate
[sic] a flying saucer which had landed (it is not known where)
on June 13, 1933.  There was also a Senatorial letter describing
in detail the strategy to be followed after the craft had been
recovered; i.e., censorship of the newspapers; arrest of the
eyewitnesses by the O.U.R.A. (The Italian Government's Political
Police); elaboration of a series of conventional explanations
for the UFO (i.e. *sonde* balloons, meteors, perihelia) to be
fed to the public via the BRERA ASTRONOMICAL OBSERVATORY at
Milan; and notification of the Prefect (Civil Governor). Finally
there was also a letter advising a mysterious DE SANTI (probably
the Fascist spy Tommaso David known as "DE SANTIS") to keep his
mouth shut about the activities of the RS/33 CABINET.

Regarding this last-named body, as a result of further material
sent to Bongiovanni's "Contactee" Review, it was discovered that
the RS/33 CABINET had been a top-secret study commission,
created in the bosom of LA SAPIENZA UNIVERSITY in Rome following
upon the recuperation [sic] of the UFO.  Headed by the physicist
GUGLIELMO MARCONI (known for his belief in Martians, although he
never played an active part in the CABINET, always sending in
his place the astronomer GINO CECCHINI from Turin).  Among its
members the CABINET had many of the most highly respected of
Italian academics, members of the Royal Italian Academy of
Sciences.  These people had been studying the UFOs, *but only
occasionally did they consider the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
being more inclined, as they were, to believe in the existence
of secret new Western weaponry*.  "MR. X" did not say whether
they had also studied the flying saucer that had been recovered.
But on the other hand they had, in seven years of research,
assembled a thirty-page dossier (i.e. the one that had been sent
to the newspaper *Resto del Carlino*) about UFO sightings
(termed by them "*velivolvi sconoscuti*," *unknown aircraft*),
and had also gathered photos and films.

After Italy's accession to the Berlin-Rome Axis, by arrangement
with Hitler this material was all subsequently to be passed to
the Nazis (*who did, in actual fact, as a result, attempt a few
years later to construct revolutionary discoidal aircraft called
the V-7*).

And, furthermore, "MR. X" mentioned that the only direct
controllers of the RS/33 CABINET were - BENITO MUSSOLINI
HIMSELF, COUNT GALEAZZO CIANO, and the Italian airman General
ITALO BALBO.

The first batch of material sent to Bongiovanni did not however
have the result "MR. X" had desired.  Bongiovanni's Review
entrusted their enquiry to the Naples ufologist Umberto
Telarico.  The material got published, but with the suggestion
that it was most probably all a fake.

Evidently greatly disappointed and wearied, on September 10,
1999, "MR. X" sent a letter of protest (always of course
anonymous as usual) repeating what we have just given above
about the RS/33 CABINET, and supplying the names of some of its
members: - a certain shadowy Dr. Ruggero Costanti Cavazzani, and
also Professor Severi, Professor Bottazzi, Professor Giodani,
and Professor Crocco, all historically real personages.
Enclosed also was a newspaper-clipping about a French air pilot
who had vanished in Italy (*a pilot who, as I discovered later,
had had the misfortune to film a UFO and to have then spoken to
the Italians about it!*)

It was at this point in the story that I myself (Alfredo
Lissoni) entered publicly into the picture.

Right after the publication of the first lot of documents, in
Gongiovanni's Review, I had requested from him - and obtained -
copies of the documents. Dr. Roberto Pinotti of C.U.N. had also
sent me copies of the UFO cases of 1936.

I started to verify all the documents, on the one hand
attempting to find confirmations in the newspapers of the time
and in the archives of organizations presumably involved, and on
the other hand trying to discover an absolutely top expert,
"*super partes*" (i.e. not involved) - a person knowing
absolutely nothing whatsoever about Ufology, and have him
analyze the original documents containing sketches of UFOs.
This research work lasted several months, and in the meantime I
started to publish my initial results in Bongiovanni's Review (a
matter of formal correctness, as he had supplied me with a part
of the material) and Pinotti's journal, and on the Internet.

The first conclusions reached by me as I talked with historians
of the Fascist Era, and after a close examination of the
publications issued in that year (i.e. presumably 1936, G.C.)
was that the scenario evoked by "MR. X" was certainly *far from
looking "unreal"*.

In the first place, it has come to light that ever since the end
of the Thirties a German aircraft designer named NORDUNG had
been attempting to build a "solar" flying disc to be sent out
into Space - subsequently re-baptized as the "flying wheel", and
so it is no wonder if the Italian Fascists, finding themselves
confronted with a UFO, should have opted for the explanation
that it was a secret weapon!

The "*conspiracy of silence*" imposed upon the affair of the
crashed UFO in Italy was subsequently demonstrated by the
various articles put out in the entire Italian press (and quite
particularly in the newspapers of Lombardy, which I personally
think was the area involved in the episode). These articles
embraced such things as changes of many political leaders,
sudden moves of Fascist Blackshirts for no known reason, and
even an improvised sudden visit by the Queen of Milan.
Furthermore a mass of contradictory reports about the existence
of life on other planets, suddenly published, after the recovery
of the saucer, in many newspapers ranging from the *Gronaca
Prealpino* to the *Italia*; from the *Balilla* to *L'Italiano*;
all declaring that there was already telepathic communication
with Martians (for such is what the "Aliens" were at the time
reputed to be).

Nobody made any explicit reference to happenings in Lombardy,
but in all of the papers, all at once, was infiltrated the
suspicion that extraterrestrial life might exist.  All of which
looked like just one more hidden propaganda operation on the
part of the Government - *maybe as preparation for some official
admission (which of course never happened)*.

Numerous indeed were the sudden changes and switches around of
persons during those days.  Pietro Bruno, the Prefect (Civil
Governor) of Milan, was suddenly "promoted and transferred", and
replaced by Gaetano Laino.  The *Questore* (Chief Constable) was
also changed.  Erminio Brusa, the *Federale* (what is this post?
G.C.) was moved, and replaced by Rinco Parenti. Although it has
not been possible for me - at this distance of 70 years! - to
find eyewitnesses of those events who were still living, I think
I did find an indirect confirmation of the landing (or maybe of
the *crash*) of the flying saucer - in a news item in the
newspaper *Domenica del Corriere* of July 4, 1937. Ably
camouflaged, this spoke of an *enormous and brilliant flash of
lightning which, one night, had injured five pedestrians (on the
road between Magenta and Novara*".

Researches in other archives proved less successful.
Unfortunately a large part of the historical archives of the
period are lost, but in the archives of the *Prefettura* (Civil
Governor's office) of Milan I found two bundles of telegrams
sent to the Prefettura during the years from 1933 to 1938, and
referring to mysterious overflights of aircraft in the skies of
Italy.  Of about 500 documents, 68 are particularly strange,
*and at least 9 are strictly about UFOs.  This shows the
interest that the Fascists took in what they termed "velivoli
non identificabili" ("unidentifiable aircraft")*. There were
also constant references to the existence of a "network"
(*rete*) for the gathering of reports.  I have also managed to
learn of the documented existence of an R.S. SECTION (RESEARCH
AND ESPIONAGE SECTION) created inside the Fascist Government's
SECRET SERVICE, *and interested in UFOs*, and, presumably,
identifiable as being, in fact, the "RS/33 CABINET".

The first person to speak of it, away back in 1978, was one of
our own staff on this journal (GIORNALE DEI MISTERI), the
scholar MARCELLO COPPETTI who was a trusted friend of Italian
Defence Minister LEGORIO, and who was also a supporter of the
thesis (so dear to the RS/33 CABINET) that UFOs were secret
terrestrial weapons.

When Bongiovanni also published *my* conclusions (totally
different from those of Telarico) "MR. X", on November 22, 1999,
sent me yet further material: a sheet headed "CAMERA DEI
DEPUTATI (CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES), containing the day's agenda for
a meeting between Il Duce and the RS/33 CABINET, during which -
as I have learned - the 1936 UFO sighting was disclosed.  There
was also a Stefani Agency message instructing a mysterious
person named Alfredo to hold his tongue about the CABINET's
activities, and mentioning a mysterious Signor Moretti,
personally involved in the matter, of whom "it was better not to
speak", because "a similar case had ended up being confined in a
mental hospital".

The "Moretti" trail led me to the Varese region.  My hypothesis
is in fact that the saucer recovered in 1933 had been hidden in
one of the nearest and most discrete hangars in that region -
namely the hangars of the aeronautical establishments of the
Siai Marchetti at Vergiate or of the Sesto Calende in the Varese
region of Ticino which at that date were under the control of
General Italo Balbo (indicated by "MR. X" as a member of the
RS/33 CABINET). The "Varese trail" had been suggested to me
through several clues: namely that the messages about recovery
of the UFO came from the nearby Telegraphic Office of Milan:
that in those very days Blackshirts were suddenly dispatched to
that region; that indeed a Varese newspaper, the *Cronaca
Prealpina*, of June 20, 1933, gave the first report, emphasising
that forms of life on Mars were in contact with men of Earth -
almost as it were a matter of official revelation; that at the
Marchetti at Sesto there was a Director with the name of
Moretti; and that at the time of the Italian Social Republic, it
was precisely a man named Moretti who having gone over to the
Resistance, had set fire to the hangars at Vergiate (which maybe
were guarding some unmentionable Space secret).  And, finally,
that, when the War was over, the U.S. Air Force and members of
the Nazi Secret Service were infiltrated precisely into Sesto
Calende, simultaneously with "voices" (i.e. rumours? G.C.)
regarding the presence of terrestrial flying saucers kept at
Vergiate, and that the entire region, from time immemorial, was
at the centre of a most intense ufological activity - to such a
degree that it gained the sobriquet of being "The Ticino
Triangle".

On October 9, 2000, "MR. X" contacted me via a letter which he
had sent to Dr. Roberto Pinotti, and suggested me as a unique
and privileged interlocutor. In this letter "MR. X", who had
read my work on the Internet, *admitted to me that he has in his
possession a handwritten memorandum by one of the actual members
of RS/33 CABINET.  He said it was written by one of his own
relatives whose effects had come down to him*.  He said
furthermore that the RS/33 CABINET had continued to work right
up to the time of the Italian Social Republic, the period in
which a part of the documentation on UFOs, in several sealed
boxes, had been sent to Berlin, while a part - "a not irrelevant
part" - remained in Italy.  And, in this latest consignment of
material, he included copies of new documents which - so he said
- demonstrated the existence of agreements between Hitler and
Mussolini for the study of alien technology, agreements that had
been made in 1938; these documents were: an Agency Stefani
message from Florence containing an interview with the Fuhrer
Hitler when he was visiting Italy; a banknote of the nominal
value of a million Lire (maybe "black funds of the RS/33
CABINET); minutes regarding the oath of secrecy given by the
professors who collaborated with the Fascist Government; an
invitation (registered) to Benito and Rachele Mussolini to Villa
Torlonia (said by "MR. X" to be for a "riunione riservatissima
dedicada al Gabinetto RS/33" - "*an extremely private meeting
dedicated to the RS/33 CABINET*"). [ NOTE BY G.C.  Here the word
"riservatissima" can be taken as the equivalent of our term "TOP
SECRET". ]

Our anonymous sender of these documents, who declares that he is
not so much interested in Ufology as in adhering to a true and
veracious reconstruction of the facts of the 1930s - 1940s
period, added furthermore that according to the compiler of the
memorandum held by him (and humorously "rebaptized" as
"PROFESSOR Y") a section of the O.V.R.A. (The Fascist Political
Police) was suspected of acting in agreement with the Nazis,
secretly furnishing material to them, maybe in the shape of
something to do with a weapon that would employ "*natural
forces*" "*of a possibly electromagnetic nature*". There is no
need to add that this last detail brings back to mind Marconi's
studies of a fantastic *death ray*, which, so Mussolini said,
had one day, by remote control, halted all automobile and
aircraft engines as far away as Ostia - a weapon which, by
virtue of 1938 agreements between Mussolini and Hitler, would
evidently reappear in the following year at Essen, Germany,
causing a *total blackout* of the city according to the account
given by the American ufologist Leonard Stringfield in his book
UFO SIEGE (1977), quoting as his source, a rather reliable
person, namely a son of the U.S. Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs who had worked in Germany for the U.S. Secret Service.
[Names, please? - TWC]

Had the Fascists and the Nazis managed to achieve any "back-
engineering" from the UFO of 1933?  The historical
reconstruction given above would seem to suggest so.  But in
that case, *what became of that work*?  Did it get lost in the
bombardments and air-raids?  Or did the Americans and the
Russians get hold of it but without succeeding in perfecting it,
as they did with the V7?

Questions destined to remain unanswered, but this business of
the Fascist UFO Files nevertheless has a very special
importance.  FOR IT DEMONSTRATES THE EXISTENCE OF A GOVERNMENTAL
COMMISSION ON UFOs *BEFORE* THE OFFICIAL BIRTH OF UFOLOGY ITSELF
- WHICH THEN LEADS TO TWO CONSIDERATIONS:

(1) The UFOs are not, as some sceptics maintain, a socio-
psychological myth, the fruit of the anxieties of the Post-War
Era. (2) "State Ufology", that is to say Governmental Ufology,
compiled and written by governmental and secretive commissions
and orchestrated via operations aimed on the one hand to
discredit and at the same time to "back-engineer" from alien
materials, *DID NOT ORIGINATE IN AMERICA IN 1947, BUT IN ITALY
ALMOST FIFTEEN YEARS EARLIER!*

BUT THERE'S MORE TO IT THAN THAT!  "MR. X" HAS WRITTEN TO ME:
"THERE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT CAN REVOLUTIONIZE THE ENTIRE HISTORY
OF EUROPE, FROM THE 1930s UNTIL THE POST-WAR ERA.  HE CLAIMS
THAT HE HAS COME INTO POSSESSION OF THIS MATERIAL "LEGITIMATELY,
AND BY PURE CHANCE".

                       THE MESSAGE OF "MR. X".

"I have shown a lot of the material now in my possession to a
lawyer, under the strict legal conditions of confidentiality.
His view was that I should disclose nothing, and that if I
myself did desire to "open up a chink" I must do it in the
strictest anonymity - and that would have to be not merely to
protect myself from the typically Italian habit of lashing out
and attacking folk all over the place, *but also indeed in order
not to endanger my own life*.

I have in my possession collateral material of the RS/33 CABINET
and - what is much more important - I have a Memorandum - in his
own handwriting - by one of the actual members of the RS/33
CABINET and (*yes! you have guessed it! - he was a relative of
mine!*).  This Memorandum deals at great length with the
origins, the activities, the results, and the entire background
of the whole affair in an autobiographical narrative, as a
souvenir for future times".

This piece of historical remembrance is indeed likely to bring
about a reconsideration of much of the past history of Ufology.
As a start, for example, note Mussolini's famous speech to the
Federation of Fascist Combatants on February 23, 1941:

"The United States are far more likely to be invaded, not by the
soldiers of the Axis, but by the not very well known but pretty
warlike inhabitants of the planet Mars, who will come down out
of Space in their unimaginable flying fortresses".

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THOUGHT TO BE A JOKE, BUT MAYBE IT WASN'T
PRECISELY THAT! A.L.

                     * FOOTNOTE BY EDITOR OF FSR.

Like myself, Galeazzo Ciano, Count of Corellazzo, had served in
various diplomatic posts in China.  At first he had been the
Italian Consul in Shanghai, as I was also H.M. Consul there a
little later. Subsequently in 1935/36, when he was in charge of
the Italian Embassy in Beijing, I frequently had the pleasure of
being among the guests at brilliant diplomatic gatherings and
receptions hosted by him and his wife Edda, Mussolini's
daughter, as I was in our own Embassy near by.  I found them a
pleasant and highly civilized couple.  Ciano had started by
being an enthusiastic Fascist and supporter of Mussolini's
general political and social programme, and Daddy-in-law Musso
called him home in 1936, to be promoted to Foreign Minister
straight away.  But Ciano strongly opposed the alliance with
Hitler and began to show this openly in 1942, and he was one of
those who deposed Mussolini.  As a result, Musso's supporters
rallied and were able to execute Ciano in 1943.  As folk would
no doubt say, 'way down in Mississippi,' "that poor man sure got
into the wrong war!". G.C.

             CAN WE TRUST THESE "FASCIST ARCHIVES"? BY GORDON
CREIGHTON.

When you think of all the fuss and palaver and backbiting that
is still going on today in the U.S.A. about "MJ-12" and
"Roswell", you may well experience a fresh cold shudder running
up and down your spine. But *is* it likely to be an exact re-
play of all that?

I had not previously heard of Signor Alfredo Lissoni, but the
journal in which he writes is the GIORNALE DEI MISTERI (JOURNAL
OF MYSTERIES) an excellent publication on the best of terms with
us at FSR and with whom we have long exchanged journals.  It is
more or less a sort of Italian combined version of our own
journal of Psychical Research, Fortean Magazine, Nexus, FSR,
etc., etc.  And Dr. Roberto Pinotti, who is also heavily
involved in this new mystery, is quite unquestionably the doyen
and expert leader of all UFO research in Italy, *as well as
FSR's long-standing Italian Consultant*.

And evidently Dr. Pinotti, like Alfredo Lissoni, feels confident
that "there is enough smoke here for us to expect to find fire
in the end".

Such is also my own conclusion.  Everything said in Lissoni's
article seems to me thoroughly and totally plausible.  If, at
the end of the 1930s, the Italians were beginning to hear of
German experiments with disc-shaped aircraft (which we do know
existed and which certainly *were* test-flown), then is it
surprising that many Italian scientists may well have suspected
that any weird craft seen flying over Italy in the years from
1933 to 1936 might well also have been *German*?  And then
later, during WWII, they might logically have suspected that
they were seeing "secret weapons of the enemy Allies"?

NOTE THE IMMEDIATE INTEREST TAKEN BY BENITO MUSSOLINI HIMSELF!
And is it in any way surprising?  For "Musso" himself was a keen
flier, and held a pilot's licence.  Who else among the leaders
in WWII did that?

Stalin too had at once spotted the immense possibility of the
UFOs, and as we know, he at once tried to get his astronomer
Korolyov to take charge of all UFO research.  (We have published
several articles on Korolyov.)

But of the other leaders - Roosevelt, Churchill, de Gaulle,
*who* was a flier or knew anything about flying?  Not one of
them.  But "Musso" did. Musso spotted the possible significance.

So, *on the whole*, I do not think this "Fascist Files" business
is a fake. I have no doubt whatever that thousands will
instantly say it *is* a fake, and maybe all the American
ufologists will do that, for the U.S.A. have by now a queer sort
of "monopoly" or a "proprietary relationship" with UFOs, and
with "MJ-12", and "ROSWELL", and all the malarkey that has grown
up around the commercialized "Roswell Story".  If Alfredo
Lissoni is telling the truth - and personally I believe he *is*
- then this affair may well come to be seen as delivering a
terrible blow to the entire American idea of their own primacy
and monopoly in these matters, and they won't like it a bit!
Are their noses "going to be put badly out of joint"?

So, is it possible that we shall see a vigorous U.S. attempt to
ignore the newly discovered "Italian Fascist UFO Files" or at
least prove them fakes?

For the fact of the matter, as we all know, (or at least we
small minority of Europeans who never forget what we owe to the
U.S.A., and are very mindful of the fundamental fact that twice
- *in two World Wars* - the U.S.A. bailed all of us Europeans
out and gave us the victory), is that, generous, good-hearted
and dear souls as the vast majority of the American people are,
they simply cannot bear it if they aren't the "top dogs" and
star performers in everything!

Thus it was that when the film-makers in Hollywood came to deal
with the problem of the recovery of Burma from the Japanese,
Errol Flynn had to do the job single-handedly, without the
presence of the British Army.  And likewise, when they recently
made a film on the secrets of Bletchley Park and the wonderful
British success over "ENIGMA", *the hero of it all had of course
to be an American*!

Note several other very important points.  This material has
only now started to come to light - just 51 years after the end
of World War II. HOW SO?

Well, it seems that as Germany tightened her grip on Italy as
the War progressed, the Germans were able to *command* the
Italians to hand all the evidence over to them!  (REMEMBER THE
REMARKABLE GERMAN SUCCESS IN BUILDING AT LEAST TWO TYPES OF
"SAUCER-SHAPED" MULTI-JET AIRCRAFT, AS DESCRIBED BY ME IN THE
ARTICLE WHICH I PUBLISHED IN 1955).

What then happened seems to have been that one member of the
Secret Italian "MJ-12" failed to comply, and, as Sr. Lissoni
tells us, kept back a part of the material and that this
material, most likely by inheritance, has reached "MR. X", who
has probably "sat on it for years" awaiting a good moment to
launch his bombshell.

Note too that author Lissoni tells us that his *last letter*
from "MR. X" was dated October 9, 1999.  That is very recent,
and there might still be more in the pipeline, more to come.
G.C.

                       FINAL NOTE.

I have now had two long telephonic chats (May 8 and 10) with Dr.
Roberto Pinotti, who, as I emphasise, is recognized as the doyen
of Italy's UFO researchers.

He confirms that it is 100% certain that the "Fascist UFO Files"
are completely genuine, and that he and Alfredo Lissoni have
already started to write their book about it all.  *From what
"MR. X" has already said it seems pretty certain that he will be
a very frightened man.  I don't think we are going to learn HIS
identity in a hurry*! G.C.



Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, [Cochise County] Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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                    FSR: Obituary Gordon Creighton Editor

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:41:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:32:47 -0500
Subject: FSR: Obituary Gordon Creighton Editor


Flying Saucer Review, Volume 48/2, Summer 2003, p. 1
http://www.fsr.org.uk

OBITUARY

Gordon Creighton

A diplomatic approach to alien visitors

Reprinted from *The Times*, 16th August, 2003.

Government service occupied most of the working life of Gordon
Creighton, but he perhaps made his greatest mark as an authority
on unidentified flying objects.  His conviction that
extraterrestrials were visiting Earth seemed oddly at variance
with the more orthodox worlds of diplomacy and Whitehall.

Gordon William Creighton was born in Rickmansworth in 1908.  His
was a conventional education---Bishop's Stortford College,
Cambridge University and the =C9cole Libre des Sciences Politiques
in Paris.  His years in government service included postings in
Europe, North and South America and China.

His first post was as an attach=E9 to the British Embassy in
Beijing, where he later became First Secretary.  He performed
the duties of consul at Nanking, Shanghai and Recife, Brazil,
and was consul-general at Antwerp and New Orleans.

His expertise took him into government research on maps in
oriental and other languages with the Permanent Committee on
Geographical Names, and he spent eight years as an intelligence
officer on Russian and Chinese affairs at the Ministry of
Defence.  It is said that in the intelligence post he worked
directly below the secret Whitehall department where the Air
Ministry and the RAF were studying information on UFOs.

His specialisation in international relations in the eastern
hemisphere was accompanied by a love of languages.  He studied
20 of them, including Russian, Chinese and Sanskrit.

Creighton's interest in UFOs was stimulated in the summer of
1941, when he saw "a white disc with a piercingly bright bluish
light on top racing through the sky in the far west of China,
near the eastern marches of Tibet".  At the time he was with the
British Embassy in China's wartime capital Chungkung.

When *Flying Saucer Review* was set up in 1955 he became a
regular contributor.  He later sat on the magazine's board and
was its editor from 1982.  He claimed that the Duke of Edinburgh
had been a reader from the earliest days.

Creighton had no time for traditional British nervousness about
what the neighbours might think.  For 30 years, commuting daily
from Hertfordshire to London, he "made a special point of
carrying and reading *FSR* in the train up to Baker Street and
then on the Underground".  He was pleased to recall that "it
must have happened on at least a dozen occasions that complete
strangers would step across the gangway to me and say: '*Flying
Saucer Review*!  Where can I get that?'"

Creighton's stories about flying saucers and his observations
were fascinating to the listener.  He believed sightings of
alien craft were common all over the world and that the human
race had had frequent encounters with the visitors.  He said
that on one occasion President Eisenhower's whereabouts for
several hours were kept secret.  The President, Creighton said,
had been called to an airbase where an alien craft was hovering,
but had insisted that the incident should never be made public.

Governments, Creighton believed, have been "lying about the UFO
problem for more than 50 years", and take the subject far more
seriously than they will admit.  According to *Flying Saucer
Review*, "the U.S. Government in particular holds a number of
crashed craft and a considerable number of preserved bodies of
small dead crew members of a certain species about 4ft-4ft 6in,
in height".  He understood this government reticence, however,
and feared that the intentions of aliens could be hostile and
that detailed information might cause alarm.

Gordon Creighton's wide range of interests embraced the world's
main religions.  Though born a Roman Catholic, he was not
confirmed until he was past 90.

His wife predeceased him.  He is survived by a son and daughter.

Gordon Creighton, diplomat, civil servant, and Editor of *Flying
Saucer Review*, was born on April 26, 1908.  He died on July 16,
2003, aged 95.


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com






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   Oct > Oct 26

               Re: Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized -

From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:21:24 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:35:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:22:50 -0700
>Subject: Re: 'Alien Antenna' Research Plagiarized - Hatch

>I also tried to find an email address to the www.para-normal
>plagiarist, with similar non-results. Pirates seldom leave email
>addresses.


Hi Larry,


Try these for Mr Walter Velikopolsky "para-normal.com"?

Administrator:
Name: Velikopolsky, Walter
Email: akvilonn@hotmail.com
Tel: 413-499-6690
Fax: 413-499-4504

229 Henry street
Pittsfield
MA, US, zipcode:01201

Technical Contactor:
Name: W.Velikopolsky
Email: hostmaster@your-site.com
Tel: 413-499-6690
Fax: 413-499-4504

126 Fenn Street
Pittsfield
MA, US, zipcode:0120

Domain Name:para-normal.com
Record last updated at 2003-04-09 09:39:33
Record created on 2002/5/20
Record expired on 2004/5/20


Regards,

John Auchettl


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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   Oct > Oct 27

                   Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Frola

From: Robert Frola <ufologist@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:37:46 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:22:25 -0500
Subject: Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003 - Frola


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:47 +1000
>Subject: Re: ACUFOS News #1 October 2003

>The announcement relating to the Disclosure Australia Project
>(reproduced below) which appeared in the first issue of "UFO
>Quest" is accurate:

>DISCLOSURE AUSTRALIA PROJECT

>The Disclosure Australia Project was launched at the 3rd
>Australian National UFO Conference held on the 14th & 15th June
>2003 in Brisbane, Australia. The purpose of the project is to
>ascertain the extent of official Australian government knowledge
>of the UFO phenomenon; then to document both this and civilian
>knowledge on the subject.

>The project was launched by Keith Basterfield on behalf of the
>Australian UFO Research Association (AURA) located in Adelaide,
>Australia and the Australian UFO Research Network.

>Project updates are available via on-line newsletters at:

>http-://disclosure.freewebpage.org

>For further information contact AURA media liaison officers:

>Keith Basterfield Mobile 041 141 7594
>uforesearchersa@yahoo.com.au

>Debbie Payne Mobile 0413 800 143
>debbiep@adam.com.au


I'm sorry to say that Sheryl's comments regarding Disclosure
Australia Project is grossly wrong.

The following appeared in the latest issue of The Australasian
Ufologist Magazine, which Sheryl Gottschall and her crew receive
on exchange with their own magazine.

"An Australian Disclosure Project has now been established. It
will be known as "Disclosure Australia" for short, or by its
full title, "The Australian UFO Research Network Disclosure
Project."

The Project is auspiced by the Australian UFO Research Network
(AUFORN), with an Adelaide based Secretariat, operated by the
Australian UFO Research Association (AURA), PO Box 786, North
Adelaide, South Australia 5006.

The role of the Secretariat: A dictionary definition of a
"Secretariat" is that it is an office responsible for the
secretarial, clerical and administrative functions of an
organisation. In this Project, the members of the Australian UFO
Research Association, based in Adelaide, are undertaking this
role of a Secretariat to the Australian UFO Research Network.

The role of AUFORN: The Project is "auspiced" by the Australian
UFO Research Network. A dictionary definition of "auspice" in
this respect, means "patronage;" where patronage is to give
support to a project. Many Australian UFO groups are affiliated
with AUFORN; and AUFORN maintains a national coverage of
individuals who support AUFORN and conduct investigations of UFO
reports received by the national AUFORN UFO free call Hotline."

If you seek further clarification, I refer you to the following
url:

http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/Brisbane%20paper.htm

Go to section 4 of this web page and you see the following
details. This paper was presented at the Australian National UFO
Conference held on the 14th & 15th June 2003 in Brisbane,
Australia of which Martin and Sheryl Gottschall were the
organisers of.

It goes as follows:

"2002 AUFORN efforts

Through a series of notices in the Australasian UFOlogist,
AUFORN has been seeking to raise the profile of Disclosure and
has called for interested parties to become involved in an
Australian Disclosure project."

It is through these efforts that AUFORN called Keith Basterfield
for support as there was no if little interest at that time to
initiating the Australian Disclosure Project.

I also refer readers to Section 6 of his paper.

"6  The challenge

My survey of, and discussions with, Australian UFO research
groups, and individuals shows that there is indeed a widespread
support for a Disclosure style project here in Australia.
Consensus was that organisationally, such a project needs to
stand apart from any existing group/structure, but preferably be
auspiced by the Australian UFO Research Network (which after
all, represents all of us."

Give credit where credit is due.  AUFORN of which I'm a co-
director off, did all the hard foot work in getting this project
going.  Sheryl Gottschall, of which she is a member of ACUFOS,
knew of these fact.

Please correct the obvious downplaying of AUFORN's involvement.

I will also publically state that our contact details on their
web page and in their publication (of which Sheryl knows all to
well, as if appears in the Australasian Ufologist Magazine)
still hasn't been updated.

Certain details below are incorrect:
Australian UFO Research Network (AUFORN)
P.O.Box 738,  Beaudesert Q 4285
Ph: 5544 6888  Fax: 5544 6877
Mobile: 0419 141918
www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn
auforn@hypermax.net.au

The correct details for all UFO Update subscribers is as follows:
Australian UFO Research Network (AUFORN)
PO Box 738,  Beaudesert  Qld  4285
Ph: 1800 772288 (A nation wide freecall number to Australian Residents only)
www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn
auforn@hypermax.net.au

Might I add the mobile number 0419 141918 belows to Dean
Harrison, a Yowie Researcher who resides in Victoria.  The phone
number belongs to Earthlink Publishing (Aust) Pty Ltd who
publishes both Hard Evidence Magazine and the Australasian
Ufologist Magazine.

How such a gross mistake could happen is belond understanding,
since both numbers have never been used for reporting UFO
sightings.

And since AUFORN is a national body, the following contact
details were omitted as well.

AUFORN NSW - Karen Burden  e-mail: UFOKB@aol.com
AUFORN VIC - George Simpson  fax: 03-9774-2328  e-mail: aufornvic@optusnet.com.a
u
AUFORN SA - Charmaine Ballam  Ph: 08-8387-0395 (after 7pm)  e-mail: starangel1@i
primus.com.au
AUFORN WA - Tracey Jackson
AUFORN NT - Keith Douglas  Ph: 08-8953-3023  e-mail: tktdouglass@bigpond.com

Please update

Robert Frola
Australian UFO Research Network (AUFORN)
www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn







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                      Re: On Television And UFOs - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:49:17 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:54:44 -0500
Subject: Re: On Television And UFOs - Pope


>From: Mike Woods <mike.woods@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:34:26 -0400
>Subject: On Television And UFOs

>Dear UFO UpDates Listers,

>I thought I'd share some thoughts with you, something to
>consider when you wonder why Television, in general, sucks.

>First, let's clear up the most common misconception about
>Television. It's _not_ an entertainment medium, it's _not_ an
>education or information medium... it is a _commercial_ medium.

>The commercials aren't there to break up the programs... the
>programming is there to break up the commercials.

>This is true for the big networks, in Canada and the U.S. and
>even more true for the specialty or cable channels. Those are
>even more commercially inclined, targetting a specific niche
>market (i.e. Sci-Fi Channel in the U.S., Space Channel in
>Canada)

>Some people have criticized - rightly-so, in my opinion - the
>tendency for television to give us 53 minutes of not-much for 30
>seconds of hard info, in a one hour UFO special.

>The problem is, and I've worked in TV news for years, most of
>the public has the attention span of a four-year-old. That
>understanding carries over to TV documentary production, even
>though docs draw people who _are_ interested and _are_ paying
>attention.

>Documentary producers try to make the liveliest show they can,
>so it will sell to the broadcasters; broadcasters want the
>liveliest shows to attract audience and thus justify (or
>increase) their ad. rates.

>Want smarter documentaries on _your_ topic of interest? There
>are two routes... but neither is quick or easy.

>First, write to the offending broadcaster, let them know what
>was wrong with whatever show ticked you off and advise them a
>copy of the letter is going to the major _advertiser_ for the
>program. Tell them it was an insult and you won't watch the
>channel or buy the advertised products, until they improved both
>products. Make sure you send the letter to the advertisers.

>Or, you can make your own documentaries. Go ahead, dig up the
>financing, writing, photograpy & editing skills you'll need.
>Show only the important stuff, avoid the dross and flash and
>then try to get it broadcast - anywhere.

>This doesn't mean we just sit back and take the crap they shovel
>at us. There are enough people in the UFO community to make a
>broadcaster sit up and take notice when they've pissed us off...
>since the documentaries they air show they know we're out there,
>we're interested and we're worth attracting, as viewers.

>Just don't expect immediate, overnight change. Media coverage of
>UFOs has undergone a radical change for the better in the last
>two decades... I expect the trend to continue.

Mike and List,

Mike raises some interesting points here, and I thought I'd
offer some thoughts on the situation.

I can remember when, here in the UK, there were just three TV
channels. It was extremely rare to see anything on UFOs. With
the advent of cable and satellite channels, the demand for shows
on any subject increased dramatically. In the UK the major TV
companies still make some shows in-house, but much of the output
comes from independent production companies. Sometimes of these
production companies will be commissioned to produce a
particular show, but often they'll pitch an unsolicited
proposal, and hawk it around to see if they can find a buyer.

We certainly have more UFO shows than we used to, but the
quality varies enormously. The problem is that there are so many
variable factors that affect the quality of the finished
product.

To get a commission, a production company will have to sell the
concept to a broadcasting network. To do so, they will have to
have something new, or at least a new angle. The pitch document
will therefore give an overview of what's proposed, and if the
show is commissioned, the production company will have to
deliver a product broadly consistent with what was in the
proposal. The point here is that ufologists will have less power
than they think they have when it comes to shaping the final
product, however much they help the production company with film
footage, general background information, interviews, etc. A good
example of this is the recent Chrysalis production A Very
British UFO Hoax, discussed on this List earlier this month. If
the production company's angle was to commission SFX people to
design, build and fly a flying saucer, they were hardly going to
screen ufologists saying they weren't fooled, because it would
undermine the central concept of the show.

Two other key variables are the size of the budget, and the
timescale in which the production company has to deliver the
programme. A good example of this was the Mentorn production,
Britain's Closest Encounter, about the Bentwaters case, also
discussed on this List earlier this year. Georgina Bruni was
consultant and spoke to many witnesses, some of whom had not
appeared on TV before. She lined up some potentially very
interesting interviews, but time and budgetary constraints meant
that Mentorn only used Halt and Penniston, who have been
interviewed many times before. Aside from that, most of the show
consisted of UFO researchers. This was interesting in itself,
for looking at the psychology of belief, but a missed
opportunity in terms of new data about the case. Fortunately,
some of the witnesses Georgina lined up have given interviews
for the forthcoming Sci-Fi Channel show on the case.

Another variable that affects the quality of the show is whether
or not the production company hire a ufologist as consultant,
and if so, who gets the commission. If a company making a show
on Roswell hires Stanton Friedman as consultant, they'd get a
good show, as Stan knows the case very well, and would be able
to line up documents and witnesses. But inevitably Stan's
beliefs will affect the show, and Stan will doubtless want to
ensure that the finished product is broadly consistent with his
view of the case. This is human nature. If the company hired
Duke Gildenberg as consultant, they'd also get someone who knew
the case very well, and could line up various witnesses and
documents. But I suggest that the finished product could be very
different.

The above point highlights another variable, namely the extent
to which there has to be balance in the show. The rules here can
vary from country to country, and balance is in any case a
subjective judgement.

Whether or not there is a ufologist as consultant, the
production company's researcher will have a huge influence on
the show. Where there's a consultant, their initial research
will often be instrumental in deciding who gets the commission.
Where there's no consultant, they'll have even more influence,
and are likely to determine who appears on the show and who
doesn't. Researchers will start with the Internet, and this is
another key factor that shapes the finished product. If a
documentary is being made on a particular case, the chances are
that the researcher will start with a Google search on the name
of the case. The accounts at or near the top are likely to be
the ones that get read, and the authors of these will have a
head start when it comes to being appointed as consultant, or
being interviewed. The point here is that the people at the top
are not necessarily those who know most about the case. They
might just have a better website, and know more about
publicising their site and raising their ranking on search
engines.

I'm not sure I agree with the point about complaining after the
event. There are procedures for making formal complaints, but to
be substantiated you'd have to show, for example, that a comment
of yours had been deliberately used out of context. Most
ufologists make much more general complaints, which tend to be
general criticisms of a show's conclusions. Frankly, these are
likely to be ignored, or to get a brief standard reply.

There are things that ufologists could do here, like taking a
media studies course, to better understand the nature of the
beast. And those who appear regularly on TV can avail themselves
of specialist interview training that covers everything from
what to wear, and body language, to getting the last word in a
live debate. But the bottom line is that because of the points
made above, this is likely to have little bearing on the overall
shape of the show.

As Mike says, TV is a commercial medium. It's not a vehicle for
promoting our particular take on ufology, or for self-publicity,
much as we might wish or pretend otherwise.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope






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   Oct > Oct 27

             Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:33:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:57:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Maccabee


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:56:24 EDT
>Subject: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member


>Hi,

>Many many moons ago as a child I met Dr. Thornton Page. His
>daughter and my mom were attending college together at Vassar.
>Dr. Page knew I was fascinated with space as my mom and most of
>her co-workers at IBM did work for the space program. Dr. Page
>sat me down and told me all about the workings of the Apollo
>missions and all the goodies a kid could want to hear about
>space flight and the tools and astronauts. He even gave me a
>briefing on the Betty and Barney Hill story which was a thrill.
>(he had no choice as I pestered him about UFOs and aliens.)

>Sooo... decades later the Majestic 12 story comes out and I'd
>read where Dr. Page's name came up as one of the experts who
>became a member of this group after another member had passed
>away.

>If any of you can confirm this please do.

So far as I know, no one has been "confirmed" as a MJ-12 member.
The original "dirty dozen" plus one are listed in the the EBD
(Eisenhower Briefing Document). Any other names are conjecture.
Incidently, many would argue that MJ-12 itself has not been
confirmed (although, as one of the few in the world who has held
the Cutler-Twining Memo in his hands, I'd say there was an MJ-12
for something in the middle 1950's).

As for Page, I had some correspondence with him years ago. He
acted as an "interested disbeliever." It was Page who selected
and wrote up the sample UFO cases in the American Association
for the Advancement of Science publication (book) on the
"debate" held in December, 1969 at the AAAS meeting. He admitted
to me that he may not have selected the best cases.

(I think he was part of the 1953 Robertson Panel. Haven't got
time to check on this now, but I'm sure the vast knowledge base
represented by the kibitzers on this list will confirm or deny
same.)







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   Oct > Oct 27

                               New At Magonia

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:55:39 -0500
Subject: New At Magonia


Two new items on the Magonia website, for your perusal:

Book reviews for November 2003:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/nov2003.htm

And the latest issue of the ever-popular Magonia Supplement, now
in its 48th glorious issue:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/ms48.htm


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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                          Re: UFOs & NORAD - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:55:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:57:20 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs & NORAD - Ledger


>From: Bob Huff <bob@arioch.us>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: UFOs & NORAD

>Met with a former AF CAPT who served at Cheyenne mountain in the
>1980's.

>One of his duties involved working with a special section that
>exploited NORAD's sensors in unexpected ways - for example, DSP
>satellites tracking movement of aircraft as opposed to solely
>detecting missile launch.

>He said they detected a number of unidentified craft that moved
>at astounding speeds. He recalled one radar 'painted' target
>that moved 500 miles virtually instantaneously.

>While in the group, he also heard mentioned of MJ-12 but had no
>specific information on the group.

>Interestingly, all targets were labeled with some explanation.
>Reporting UFOs was not allowed.



Hi Bob,

Was this AF captain US or Canadian. Additionally, the breakup of
STS 107 and the information garnered before re-entry, ie the
piece leading edge slipper that drifted away from Columbia a few
days after achievieng LEO, indicates that they have far greater
tracking capability [electronically and optically] than most of
us imagined. I wonder if they tap into GOES satellites as well,
and possibly some of the RadarSat transmissions too? I have been
told as well that "officially" there are no UFOs seen by NORAD.


Best,

Don Ledger







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                   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:23:00 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:59:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Gates


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:03:27 -0600
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:12:14 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Kaeser

>>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:32:24 -0600
>>>Subject: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

><snip>

>Ummm, an "entertainment group?" OK. I'll buy that, I guess. But,
>they could produce a quality product, instead of the Pee Wee
>Herman shows that are filled with one minute of important
>information surrounded by incessant repeats of the same sound
>byte backed by incessant commercials.

<snip>

>All I keep seeing is all fluff and no substance... but promises
>that will change with each upcoming spectacular. Well, I've sat
>through two productions and found them designed to appeal to
>teenagers or people surrounded by the bozone layer, than trying
>to really get serious people in science and academics to tune in
>and help get their format and effort off the ground.

Hi Wendy,

The truth simply is that productions are designed around
advertising bucks. Recently the NY times ran an article about
how all the TV executives were all in a lather because the
actual number of TV viewers has plunged through the basement
this year. According to the article TV viewing is targeted to an
audience of 18-34 year old men and for some reason(s) they
aren't watching TV this year. Apparently they (meaning the TV
folks) use these basis for how much ad revenue they squeeze out
of their advertisers, including promises of free ads and money
back to advertisers if they don't make a particular level/mark.

The advertisers squeeze the TV folks, who squeeze the TV
production people (said another way crap rolls down hill) to
make this or that change, to alter the production, cancel the
show, add another show...anything for the cash.

I am sure there have been other shows, but one of my favorites
was Unsolved Mysteries. The show covered the material, covered
the case in the time alloted and seemed to do a reasonable job
without all the hype, 1 minute of show, 3 minutes of commercial.

>Again. Sci-Fi Channel does some great shows and I watch it
>several times a week (until I become frustrated with the
>overkill of commercials). But they are not astute enough to
>realize that there is a huge audience out there that would like
>to see an entertaining, but serious, exploration of the UFO
>phenomena, without the glitz, hype and shallow material to
>present.

Goes back to advertisers and money.


Cheers,

Robert






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                           I Saw The Kecksberg UFO

From: Brian Vike <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:03:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:03:00 -0500
Subject: I Saw The Kecksberg UFO



I Saw The Kecksberg UFO!

It was a warm December night in 1965. I was 14 years old and my
cousin John was 12 years old as we left my house to sneak a few
cigarettes down the alley. We lived in the suburban community of
Bridgeville; 12 miles southwest of downtown Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. We came to this lithographic building which had a
loading dock in the back. It was the perfect place to sit and
smoke in secret. We knew we had to leave soon. The time was
getting late into the evening. But, before we made our way back
to my house:

Something pierced the night's sky over my left shoulder. Our
heads turned to the left and our eyes could not help but notice
a bright ball of light! Both John and I were stunned. Our mouths
dropped. The object was about the size of a full moon and it
trailed sparks or little bits of light. The odd thing about it
was the thing did not fall straight down. The UFO went
laterally; sideways; almost up! Whatever this was...it could not
have been a meteor. A shooting star (or space debris) falls
down. A natural object does not move horizontally. Meteors do
not go up.

There was no sound. We could not tell its distance from us since
the object appeared just like a big dot of light. This was no
saucer with lights or any kind of features. The entire sighting
lasted for approximately 5 seconds. Then, the object passed over
the southern hill; behind the trees of what was called Cook
School hill.

John and I immediately reacted. We ran to my house very excited.
My father, an old skeptic, thought we were crazy. UFOs were not
a part of his belief-system. Nevertheless, I convinced him to
drive us up to the top of the hill and check to see if anything
came down there. At the time, my cousin and I thought the thing
could have hit somewhere around Cook School. My father humored
us and drove us around. We saw nothing strange. This convinced
my dad that there was nothing to this UFO business. 'Ah, UFOs'
he would say and had a good laugh at my expense.

Thirty-eight years had passed. I don't smoke cigarettes anymore.
I had seen a number of UFOs in my life. When looking back at the
past, I almost did not put this experience in with those other
unexplainables. Probably, the reason was it did resemble a close
meteor fall. I assumed this was merely a natural event and was
nothing extraterrestrial.

Very recently, on television's Sci-Fi Channel, they showed
previews of 'Kecksberg Exposed.' This was a 2-hour special
hosted by Bryan Gumball.

I looked forward to this because they were calling it the 'new
Roswell' and it happened in the Pittsburgh area; my home town.
Minutes into the show, my mouth dropped (as it did 38 years ago)
and I said 'Oh, my freaking God.' I saw the Kecksberg UFO!

I certainly should have heard of this event and I'm a little
ashamed that I'm not that up on UFO history. Actually, I'm glad
that I didn't put 2 and 2 together before this point because
that would have lessened the revelation that occurred during the
documentary. The most compelling factors in the show that led me
to conclude I saw it was: 1) This was the time I had my
sighting; late one warm December night in 1965. 2) Kecksberg is
25 miles southwest of Pittsburgh; Bridgeville is 12 miles
southwest of Pittsburgh. The object moved south and it appeared
to us to pass over the southern hill. 3) The UFO, according to
all reports, did look similar to a meteor.

In an old newsreel film, an interviewer asked a very young
Kecksberg resident: 'What did it look like?' The boy answered:
'A star on fire.' A street in the small farming town of
Kecksberg was named METEOR Street because of this encounter with
the object. People who were able to get a good look at it said
that it was acorn-shaped. An acorn monument was erected in the
town and stands to this day.

The first reports came out of Canada and the thing in the
night's sky continued southward. The UFO buzzed the Pittsburgh
area and turned...which, of course, indicates that it was not a
natural phenomena. Thousands of reports flooded into news
agencies. KDKA received hundreds of calls alone. If I was only
mature enough, I would have searched through newspapers the next
day. This would have told me that my cousin and I were not alone
in our observation.

Kecksberg was another Roswell because the military was
dispatched. Oncemore...government agents, soldiers, Men in Black
converged on a small American town. Guns were pointed at
citizens; people's lives were threatened; there were 'radiation'
scares; and authorities told people to lie. People witnessed
that federal 'suits' seemed to give orders to the military.

This convergence of government officials does not happen when a
meteor falls to Earth. Of course, there are those that will say
the Kecksberg UFO was a piece of Soviet intelligence...and that
was the reason for military intervention. The same was said
about Roswell.

A large, flatbed truck was seen entering the wooded area where
the thing seemed to come to a soft landing. The truck was empty
when it went in and covered when it left. To this day, the
Kecksberg controversy rages on as townspeople are divided as to
what really occurred. Some deny the fallen object and that feds
made any appearance at all. Others claim to have had been in
direct contact with government intimidation.

This writer is very pleased that something did happen at
Kecksberg. I wish my father was alive so I could tell him that I
was not crazy. Or...look dad; there are many others that are
just as crazy as I am.

Report by Doug Yurchey


Permission granted to post report and name of the witness.
Anyone wanting to speak to Mr. Yurchey can contact Brian at HBCC
UFO Research.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm








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                    Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:08:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:12:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Bourdais


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:54:23 EDT
>Subject: Roswell & Other Issues

>I think David Rudiak has covered the "debris in Ramey's office"
>subject very thoroughly! Thank you for your hard work, David.
>(And you're right: That radiator _is_ lower than the top of the
>chairs in Ramey's office, no matter what someone else's reading
>of the specs might be...).

>Some of the further issues and questions for me are:

>Roswell facts:

<snip>

>What can we learn from Roswell beyond the known facts in terms
>of alien agendas - at least, the agenda of those aliens?

>Why didn't "rescue ships" arrive and at least retrieve the alien
>bodies? If the craft had come from Earth, and other Earthly
>craft were nearby, a rescue attempt of some sort would almost
>certainly be made, just as would occur at sea per international
>law.

>Was the crashed saucer at Roswell on some kind of programmed
>execution mission with alien prisoners aboard, such that the bad
>guys would be killed by attracting lightning from an electrical
>storm, but we would gain some technology from the debris?

>It doesn't seem very plausible, but then, if their craft are
>vulnerable to lightning strikes, why did they tempt fate by
>flying into one? Why would they be so reckless?


Dave and all,

You raise some interesting, and embarrassing questions. My
global impression is that we don't know yet half of the Roswell
story, at best. What we know fairly well is that there was a ufo
crash, that there were at least two sites, that the craft and
bodies were found at the second site near Roswell (we are not
sure of the exact place, probably not the Hub Corn site), and
that, according to several witnesses, there was a surviving
alien.

About the cause of the crash, there is a series of hypotheses.
The first one is that it was hit by a lightning strike. We have
only rumors as to the functionning of the craft. No engine
found. Maybe it worked as a sort of electrical capacitor, it
which case it may have been vulnerable to a lightning strike ?
But then, why did they go into that thunderstorm ? Embarrassing
question.

Another hypothesis is that the craft was in trouble. There are
some testimonies about that. For instance, according to Lewis
Rickett, Lincoln LaPaz had that idea when he researched traces
in the area. They found a landing trace, a burned, bluish area.
Maybe be the disabled craft had made a first landing, tried to
repair itself, then took off and finally exploded. Maybe the
craft found was just a recue craft. The debris field is a strong
evidence of a violent explosion.

A more intriguing question is, why was the crew not rescued by
another craft ? This is where other speculations take place. Was
it a staged accident, to reveal their presence, secretly ? But
then what about the victims? Did they sacrifice themselves ? Or
were they just "androids" that the real aliens did not care much
about ? It seems to me that all this is speculation, without the
faintest bit of evidence. So, this remains as a mystery for the
time being, for us poor ufologists who are not in the know!

There is yet another hypothesis, even more far fetched,
according to which there was a fight between ufos, and one was
shot down by another. After all, this would fit in a whole long
story of alleged alien conflicts. BTW, there are also
indications that there may have been another craft found in the
area. Major Marcel, in his interview by Linda Corlay, hinted to
another discovery, about 80 miles SW of Roswell. That would be
in the area of White Sands. He also hinted that he had not told
all what he knew. So, again, this remains as a very open
question.


Gildas Bourdais







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              Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:49:12 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:21:14 -0500
Subject: Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan - Gevaerd


>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole@rochester.rr.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 5:22 PM
>Subject: Re: October 2003 Update From Rich Dolan

<snip>


Hi Richard:

Thanks for your reply. I am indeed very glad that we will be able to meet
personally next February in Laughlin. I have been attending to that
conference since the very beginning and had the pleasure of making dozen
friends there. I am preparing a "hot package" of solid, legitimate UFO info
from Brazil to present -- plus the lecture with documentation showing
Urandir's hoaxes. (By the way, I believe I was in that same room that you
describe, after Jonathan Reed's first appearance and I as well manifested my
disbelieve in his case.)

About your message, the central point of it the same issue that some other
colleagues have expressed during the last months as an attempt to keep the
debate around Urandir in good level. I fully understand it. It reflects a
valorization of the scientific efforts used by Linda to assure good results
in her investigation. Plus some details pertaining to the bedsheets and
rocks that Urandir claims that are from mars. I like that, as I like that
the debate can be kept in high level. This is precisely the same kind of
approach that we have conducted down here in Brazil for years, much before
Linda or anyone else ever heard about this hoaxer -- and that made us,
Brazilian researchers, to completely conclude that the man is nothing by a
deceiver.

However, the allegation that we HAVE NOT used scientific tools to
investigate his "cases", and that Linda, on the other hand, has done a
tremendous effort to have the scientific method applied the bedsheets and
rocks, is absolutely nonsense and a matter of disinformation. I and several
colleagues down here started investigating Urandir's allegations using the
proper scientific method, yes. (Or at least what of it that can be applied
to Ufology.) But since the beginning of such procedures we figured out that
simply there was no need for that. And you know why? First, because I myself
have and several other UFO researchers as well caught him making simple
stage magic tricks. Acts with coins, cards, perfumes, rocks, ridiculous
telepathic contacts with persons in the audience, fake precognition etc etc
etc. You name it, we have it all on tape.



What probably you don't know and Linda does, but refused to look deeply into
the matter, is that Urandir has been for all his life a humble, simple, but
smart stage performer much before he started telling people that he was a
paranormal. See, very feel people can tell a magic trick (prestidigitation)
from a paranormal power. I can. What Linda never bothered to check out if
that the man has been on several stages in different States here, presenting
performance magic shows using the most popular, simple tricks. Even pigeons
out of a sleeve. Then, when he first heard of UFOs, he started telling
people -- that such as Linda has believed in him -- those are powers given
to him by aliens.



Second, as he liked to be seen as a "selected from the sky", a person who
has been chosen by aliens, he developed more and more absurd but very
persuasive allegations, such as he could heal all diseases with the power he
was invested by extraterrestrials. Please, ask Linda if she ever bothered to
look into the files that many UFO researchers have (as she never wanted to
look into mine), some videotapes of his TV appearances and "contact courses"
which include things as "I can heal cancer and Aids with the power I was
given by aliens". Or "I can bring dead people to life again, with the power
of Cosmos". Well, Richard, this is the kind of person we are talking about,
a man who can deceive people promising them life to their dead ones,
promising healing them of the most painful diseases etc etc etc. And what
for? Money. All the sessions of healing and resuscitation, that never
happened, were very well paid. This man is Linda's abductees. Has she aver
conducted the same scientific effort to find that out?

Third, Urandir has lied just about everything about his background in
connection to Ufology. He used to tell tales to his followers about having
contacts with alien when he was a child, tales of dreaming about a specific
location, where he now has his large farm, tales about being chosen by
aliens to be the "savior of mankind" etc etc etc. It is all a great
deception and we have his background fully covered, with signed witness
reports from friends, colleagues, ex-partners from his past. They all concur
that the stories he spreads is a bunch of inventions. So, you see, a man who
lies about his past in that way can be trusted in the present? And if he
keeps lying about the past even in the present time?

Fourth, all his main fabrications have been easily debunked and exposed,
either because we had been able to determine how they have been done and/or
because we have signed witness reports from people who actually took part in
some of the scams, for money, and then got fired. And I mean a lot of
reports from people, covering some 90% of his many hoaxes. The personnel
that he had employed in the past to help him to cheat people (some
impersonating aliens, other using laser beams to simulate UFOs and even
others with balloons at a distance etc). For example, when he invented the
crash of a flying saucer in his buddy's farm, some two years ago (another
hoax fully published by Linda in her website), he completely ignored that
such property is only 30 miles from one of the largest airforce base in
Brazil, whose personal would certainly detect the crash. Again, more B.S.
from him. Again Linda's scientific effort didn't cover that part of the
story.

By the way, at that time, by the end of 2001, it was the last time I've been
personally investigating a claim from him. I went to the farm immediately
after the release of the info about the alleged crash, just to see that it
was all a scam he did with his buddy. After making a few questions to both,
that easily got them in contradictions in front of a TV crew, the farmer
expelled
me from the property and Urandir sent some 10-12 of his "colleagues" to make
sure that I wouldn't get back. If you know what I mean... I could be
seriously injured or killed at that time if I was alone, but the TV crew,
who also saw the absurd of the lies that both guys were saying, helped me to
continue breathing. And after I have gone public telling that it was all a
hoax, a new hoax -- and I did it in a TV program in that station -- Urandir
decided to initiate a new lawsuit against me and the TV itself. The TV was
sued because Urandir believes that they cannot report his lies!!! Well, he
has done that many time to many media companies to ensure he doesn't get
much criticism. But it never worked with me and nobody else.

Fifth, why would we bother to have a bedsheets analyzed if it comes from a
man whose all life has been a bunch of fabrications? I give you an example.
If Jonathan Reed (sorry to use the same guy again for example), who has
spread so much lies about his fake contact, comes out with a bedsheet with
marks from an alleged abduction, who would care? Now, really, who would pay
attention to that? And in Urandir's case it is much more serious, because
Reed stories aren't more than 10% of Urandir's story in volume and
complexity -- all fake. Plus, the facts that Felipe Castello Branco
allegedly saw the abduction is also a fake statement. I pushed him hard to
confirm that story, after he have talked that tale in the first place
imagining that no one would question him. He never confirmed. Never! He
simply exaggerated when he reported the facts. Why? Because he is a business
associate of Urandir. What else? He, as many other former business
associates, has helped Urandir to keep the flame up. Some of these former
associates now seriously regret and came public with details of the scam.



Let me go a little further with the term "business associate". When I say
that, I mean that the whole Urandir's movement is a business. It has been
designed to make money, as any other business. And whoever helps him in that
objective, in a solid and regular basis, can be identified as an associate.
Castello Branco has helped Urandir enormously to keep his lies up and
shinning. He was the one who contacted Jeff Rense, Linda Howe and others and
he was the guy who provided much of the translations of Urandir's
interviews. (Rense figured out the hoax immediately and moved away from it.)
When I questioned him hard about it and when I said to him that I would go
public with the fact that his initial statement was a lie (that of the rocks
falling from the sky and that he saw Urandir being taken by a beam of
light), he threatened me. Yes, he threatened me and tried to intimidate me.
Why? Think about it.


Sixth, when I say that Urandir's activities are a UFO cult I know what I am
referring to. I have published in my magazine (20 years of circulation)
several articles about many UFO cults and sects in Brazil and other
countries, plus discussing the behavior of their founders and gurus. Projeto
Portal, Urandir's group, is indeed a cult of his personality, a brain-wash
movement based on the continued feed of illusory info about salvation and
benevolent aliens and armaggedon rescue to naive simple-minded people, in
change for their money and worse. I have it all plenty documented. It is not
necessary to conduct any scientific research to confirm that, as you can
easily talk to people who have scaped from the cult and declare what they
saw. One may choose not to believe in them, as Linda did, but this is
another question. And finally, my evaluation is that Jim Jones movement was
something much worst in Guyana, sure, but its sad procedures of brain-wash
are not too far away what happen to people who are given the promise of
salvation by aliens and them rely entirely in the person who promised them
that.

Richard, I could go on and on with this. But it has all been said in the
past months. The point that you state, that "there is no scientific research
to conclude a fraud, only the word of the ones complaining of it", is
absolutely out of question. If Linda ever bothered to spend a few more days
in Brazil to do her homework, then she could have talked to UFO researchers
who investigated the frauds, to many press personnel who caught the hoaxer
on the act of faking, to former followers and associates, who declare openly
that it is all a set of fabrications; to people who know the hoaxer
background and know well that he is lying etc etc etc. Now, if she ever did
THAT, than her investigation of the case could be considered comprehensive,
thoroughfully and scientific.

We have a say in Brazil: "Of the rain, you have only seen a drop". This goes
to people who support the case and, not like you (who have repeatedly said
of your healthy open-minded skepticism), people who prefer to rely on fibers
of a bedsheet instead
the word of serious, objective and veteran UFO researchers.


Best regards.

A. J. Gevaerd






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   Oct > Oct 27

                        Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:34:32 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:14:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - McGonagle


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: by way of UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:49:38 -0400
>Subject: Re: Mind Control?

>Apologies to Joe McGonagle and anyone else who would like an
>ongoing dialogue concerning alternate theories for mind control.

Hello Eleanor,

I have just returned after a weekend in London (at the BUFORA
40th anniversary conference, which was very enjoyable), so I
apologise for the delay in responding.

There was no need for any apology from you, I hardly expected as
good a response from anyone as you posted. I fully appreciate
the demands on your time and the potential for becoming involved
in a fruitless and drawn-out debate.


Thanks, once again, for your input,

Joe McGonagle








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   Oct > Oct 27

                      Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:01:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:28:24 -0500
Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story - Morris


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:39:46 +0200
>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:13:54 -0700
>>Subject: Re: RAWIN Balloon Story

>>I don't see a problem here at all.....

>>1) The Debris arrives. First impression "Easy, it's a beat up
>>ML307 radar target and balloon, we use heaps of them down on the
>>field".

>>2) Ramey and Co check it out. They _know_ what an ML307 is and
>>looks like.

>>3) They discover to their surprise it's not.

>>4) Washington wakes up to what's happening. They need to tell
>>the press something to kill the story so they go with their
>>first hunch, it's an ML307 "hexagonal" "six pointed star" target
>>and it's balloon.

>>It seems a logical and simple enough scenario to me.

>It looks to me like the craziest scenario ever imagined about
>Roswell.


Gildas,

Tell me which bits, and I'll explain my thinking.

>We already had many, and recently the "revelation" that it was a
>military glider, according to a letter in Fate Magazine of June
>2003. But your scenario beats them all. Washington worries
>because they have found a peculiar radar target!

Haven't seen it, but it sounds like more parachute crash test
dummies.

>Again, if you were trying to cast a maximum of confusion on
>Roswell, what a great job.

I don't find it confusing, but maybe that's just me....

>BTW, I put in doubt recently that Mogul 4 was ever launched.
>Curiously, you insisted that it was. I wonder. What kind of game
>are you playing? That being said, I still have not read on this
>list any serious argument to the contrary. David, would you
>comment on that?

I think what I said was that _a_ launch was made, but it was not
an official NYU launch, if it came out any other way I'm sorry
because I'm with you here I don't think Flight 4 ever got off
the ground.

It's very difficult to try and pin down what "might" have been
NYU flight 4. In their Technical Report No1 they state "The
flight numbering system has been revised since it's inception
and now only those flights in which an attempt was made to
control the altitude of the balloon are included in the summery.
Excluded are flights made to test special gear and launchings
which were not successful."

If we work backwards from Flight 5 on the 5th June 1947 using
Albert Crary's journal we find that on both the 3rd and 4th June
it appears preparations were made for launches but no flights
were made. (yet he says "Flew regular sono buoy up with cluster
of balloons" on 4th June I'll come back to this)

Charles Moore only arrived at Alamogordo on Sunday the 1st June
but a NYU support team had in fact arrived the previous
Wednesday and had also made a successful balloon launch the
following day.

So what might have been flight 4? And what about Crary's
mention of the cluster he say's he launched on the 4th. I think
it's fair to say Crary's cluster was nothing to do with the NYU
series of flights. At that time the NYU were using balloon
trains in the "cosmic ray" configuration _not_ "cluster"
configuration and they continued to use the "cosmic ray" through
to Flight 6. Crary had gone to some trouble to fit his own
research timetable into the proposed NYU flight sequence, he had
men and material out in the field and then no flight from the
NYU team. But his part of the project at that time didn't need
the bells and whistles of the NYU's balloon train, he just
needed to get his sono buoy aloft so his ground stations could
listen for it's signals. So it would seem logical that after the
NYU flight was cancelled for the 2nd time he'd go it alone and
launch his own gear. It's interesting to note that what might be
one mans success is anothers failure.

Flight 5 was claimed by Charles Moore's group as a completely
successful flight, yet if viewed from Crary's perspective it was
a total disaster, his monitor receiver in the chase plane never
worked and his ground stations only received brief signals and
totally missed the explosions he'd set for them to monitor.

What might have been Flight 4 was more than likely one of the
cancelled flights set up for June 3rd and 4th and would have
been another long "cosmic ray" assembly as flights 1, 5 and 6
were. Hence my belief NYU flight 4 wasn't launched, but a
launch of sorts _was_ made on the 4th but with only a simple
balloon cluster to get Albert Crary's sono buoy airborne.


Neil







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   Oct > Oct 27

                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:55:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:34:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:06:33 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:34:05 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>><snip>

>>>>"Oh please, Mr. Rimmer, this is so much intellectualized tally-
>>>>whacking. Trindade is one of the most vetted and rigorously
>>>>parsed reports ever made. Your less than academic and plainly
>>>>obdurate refutation serves only to make you appear petty,
>>>>uninformed, and not remotely convincing.

>>>If Trindade has been so thoroughly vetted and rigorously parsed
>>>(?) why did none of the investigators, at the time or later,
>>>speak to any of the witnesses othet that the photographer and
>>>his two friends? Did they just say "ah, well, that's that
>>>sorted, no need to bother anyone else", and go home?

>>Verily, you've found a dissembling tick-turd and insist that we
>>all pole vault over it. You suggest a hoax based on a straw ipso
>>facto you have generated yourself and use the negative
>>manufactured to imply a proof for your contrived case. I submit,
>>sir, that you have no -idea- what the investigators did or
>>didn't do, and not very cleverly paint them much later and after
>>the fact as hoaxers or shambling buffoons. When it's all said
>>and done I can only conclude that the investigation as it stands
>>provides the required verity because the quality (explained in a
>>moment) of the persons involved in the affair is high and high
>>profile and is documented as high, while the knee-jerk
>>performance of persons on your side of the isle (Menzel, among
>>others) was duplicitous, dissembling, and decidedly unscientific
>>from the beginning. Where the verity was, from the beginning, is
>>plain.

>As far as I can understand the above paragraph ("tick-turd" is
>not a phrase common amongst my aquantances)

Ah! It is a near microscopic bit of fecal matter produced from
the insectoid exertions of a bloodsucking parasite, Mr. Rimmer.
I trust you -know- what a pole vault is... And I'm _hugely_
entertained at the thought of you canvassing your acquaintances
for a definition of the phrase, be that as it may. LOL!

>you are implying
>that I think the investigation of the Trindade case was poorly
>conducted. In which case you miss my point entirely.

No sir. I propose you do not give proper credit to the
investigation as it is.

>Trindade
>was investigated by a number of people and organisations, with
>different agenda. I have no reason to believe that *any* of them
>were "shambling buffoons". This makes it all the more remarkable
>that none of them came across any other direct eyewitnesses that
>Barauna and his colleagues.

Who's to say they didn't? And then how much witness
corroboration is -enough- witness corroboration (...that is to
say, how many would they have thought would have satisfied Mr.
Rimmer in 2003)? What can be said against the witnesses as they
are? Given that UFOs were seen all through the area during the
critical time by other boatloads of people, a garrison of
military, and one theodolite operator and his supervisor, it's
no stretch that the witnesses we have might have seen them, too.

>Rather than this being due to the investigatotrs incompetence, I
>suggest it is due to the fact that there were no other direct
>eyewitnesses

I think your 'fact' falls readily through the straw floor of
your suggestion. You suppositions hardly qualify as facts, sir.

>>>You see, this is what I don't understand: dozens of witnesses,
>>>allegedly, but only three of them give statements.

>>Allen Hynek wrote in his "The UFO Experience" that a true
>>scientist would not think of measuring light through an
>>instrument that was not properly calibrated against light from a
>>known star, but having been calibrated the data produced can be
>>trusted more than not on an unfamiliar stellar body, even if the
>>data collected is unusual and unexpected. Hynek used the
>>preceding as a metaphor for *people* as data collecting
>>instruments. Some have been calibrated by their previous
>>behavior to be trustworthy instruments and some not... where is
>>your evidence that the witnesses (as we have them provided) have
>>not demonstrated the requisite proof of calibration? One
>>witness, even calibrated, would be inconclusive... even with a
>>quality photo to back up his claims. But we have more than
>>one... we have at _least_ three and a series of vetted
>>photographs.

>All of whom were friends in the same underwater photography
>club.

Yes - that aforementioned tick-turd you want us all to pole-
vault over, Mr Rimmer.

>>The chances for error are significantly reduced and
>>your reluctance to except that... telling.

>And they would be even more reduced if we had just one *independent*
>witness.

Would one more be enough, Mr Rimmer?

>>>>As regards Mr. Clark... he's not been given to bald hyperbole in
>>>>the past (he's been a tested instrument of remarkable
>>>>calibration to this point) so where is the validation to thinly
>>>>suggest that he is now. Moreover, _blown_ out of the water,
>>>>would you even admit it, or just set your CSICOPian sights on
>>>>another target..."

>>>Sorry, you've lost me here; maybe it loses something in the
>>>translation.

>>I think not, sir! Please see my above paragraph... It's Mr.
>>Clark who has demonstrated the requisite calibration for
>>investigation, where you own provides evidence for bias,
>>occlusion and cant. I trust that's a little clearer?

>>>>... Can't take a little good natured ribbing on your lock-kneed
>>>>and reactionary worldview? Tsk. Take heart, the mainstream
>>>>agrees with you. There are _plenty_ of places you can go for
>>>>validation.

>I get the bit about calibrating Jerome Clark, would this be
>farenheit, centigrade, metric or, if you'll forgive the phrase
>(vide infra) Imperial?

Oh, metric, to be sure! It's the language of science.

>>>What's a "tallywacking"? Is it an old colonial sport?

>>It's a word describing the cultish behavior of the ignoble lot
>>over at CSICOP (Committee for the Seriously Insentient
>>Commitment of Obdurate Persons) and has nothing to do with what
>>remains of a smoldering resentment endured by me for you guys
>>burning our capital to the ground during the War of 1812! <LOL>

>Hmm. As you raise the matter, I must point out that this week we
>are commemorating the 20th anniversary of US Marines invading
>the lovely island of Grenada, an independent nation, the head of
>state of which is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. I, of course,
>bear no smouldering resentmant.

...And why would you? Her Majesty's government was on board with
that little police action. Your action in 1812 was a result of
the lack of respect we were paid as a nation, stung British
pique since 1776, and the incessant kidnapping of our Mariners
to serve on British ships. Apples and oranges, once again, Mr.
Rimmer.

>Yours loyally

>John Rimmer
>Magonia Magazine
>www.magonia.demon.co.uk/acr/00/newmag.htm

Yours rationally,

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Oct > Oct 27

                 Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:56:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:37:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Stanford


>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:53:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:12:14 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

><snip>

>>What they didn't emphasize (and it may be that the information
>>came in too late to make it a part of the presentation) is that
>>a Chief Scientist for Orbital Debris at NASA and ruled out any
>>possibility of the Kecksberg incident being caused by Russian or
>>American space debris falling out of orbit. This is a major blow
>>to the explanation that is often promoted to explain the event.

>I'm far from home on vacation and have not seen the show, but
>I remember what I told them - I am not arguing that the object
>WAS the Venera ('Kosmos-96') capsule, merely that arguing by
>'elimination' hasn't ruled out prosaic explanations _like_ that
>one.

I guess we all know how crayfish move when their position seems
endangered. :) Down in Texas we call it "crawfishing" (moving as
a crayfish does when frightened).

>Steve's comment falls well within the scope of my argument. His
>unspoken assumption is, "The US Air Force would NEVER lie to us
>about tracking data, even if it's the data for a spacecraft they
>may have illegally snatched and don't want the Soviets to
>realize." Based on that assumption (the same one Dr. Johnson
>carefully alluded to with his reference to 'catalogued
>objects'), he argues that the US Air Force _has_ lied to us.
>Duh.....

>There may well be ways to rule out Kosmos-96 based on tracking
>data, but they have not been found yet by these self-styled
>investigators. Nor do I think I will help them further.

Declaring investigators to be "self-styled" is a purely
propagandistic term coined by yellow-bellied newspaper
reporters, so I'm not surprised that Jim Oberg adopts the tactic
when he cannot deal with substantive issues!

>However, I will not _mislead_ anyone by arguing that _I_ happen
>to want people to believe that the Kosmos-96 prosaic explanation
>is credible and consistent with all trustworthy evidence.
>
>The least unlikely explanation in my view is that the natural
>fireball meteor - and it was so well observed and recorded that
>it looks exactly like thousands of other natural bolides and
>it's pre-impact trajectory could be computed and found to be
>'natural-meteoroid-like' - led to somebody's suspicion that it
>was connected with the imminent entry of a very high-priority
>space object (Kosmos-96) so when the meteor was seen and
>reported, some low-level DoD pawns drove over to nose around.
>The rest is pseudo-history of the self-inflationary kind.

Oberg is either grossly uninformed about the capabilities of the
USAF and USN space surveillance systems (yes, even back then),
or he's stating something he doesn't really believe, himself!
Even then, such systems were fully capable of tracking high
speed objects like cosmic debris far enough out in space that a
cosmic body trajectory would have easily been distinguished from
the track of a soviet satellite of missile.

Hey, Jim, how about defining your "some low-level DoD pawns"!
That's 'cheap journalism' and you know it! Explain how low-level
DoD pawns were able to go out, half cocked, and threaten
civilians who tried to get in and have a look at a mere
meteorite. It's getting pretty deep, Jim!

Jim also shows his ignorance about meteors (the luminous trail
of cosmic bodies within the atmosphere). The simple fact is that
meteors loose luminosity (due to retardation from cosmic
velocity) well above 100,000 feet, and the Kecksburg whatever-
 it-was glowed all the way down, if the reports I have heard are
correct. Natural cosmic bodies (unless they are so large as to
be broadly life-threatening, like the object that formed the
Barringer crater in Arizona, about 50,000 years ago, or the
vastly larger one that killed off the non-avian dinosaurs and
much other life about 65,000,000 years ago) of the sizes that
have come down in historic times (including the Tunguska body of
1908 that did its destruction by exploding at very high
altitude) simply are non-luminous at the very least below
100,000 feet.

Did you wonder, List friends, how the great 'expert' on space
that the media (and even some on this list) declare Jim Oberg to
be, could be so ignorant about meteors?

>The 'acorn-shaped' stories seem to only have emerged _after_
>self-styled witnesses...

There Jim goes again with that "self-styled", purely
propagandistic put-down!

Come on Jim, that's not intellectual honesty! How about defining
"self-styled". Who would you prefer had styled them? :) Any
witness has seen something for himself -- but I suppose that in
your yellow-bellied journalistic style, that makes him or her
"self-styled", because the witness saw it for himself! Or, would
you have us believe that a witness becomes 'self-styled' when he
or she describes something that you wish to convince us was of
no great consequence.

How about telling us what constitutes a non-self-styled witness,
Jim? :) Maybe a 'space expert' who doesn't know much about
meteors? Or, maybe, a 'hired gun' for the government who tries
to shoot down UFO cases that get too much publicity? If the
laity do not constitute witnesses worthy of notice, maybe we
should shut down our jury-trial system and let Jim Oberg be the
judge and jury.

>...were shown photographs of the Venera
>entry probe by UFO investigators, I have been informed.

Whoa!!! Reference, please! "I have been informed"! For that kind
of journalism, Jim, you deserve an ignoble prize of some sort.

>Before that, the vehicle was supposedly 'rocket-shaped'.

Says who? And for what part of the approach trajectory was such
a description allegedly given? Maybe when it was glowing, far
away, in which circumstance someone was just speculating it was
a missile or rocket and not really describing detail, maybe?

With your propagandistic put-down technique, Jim, you risk
uncloaking yourself, not as an objective analyst and reporter,
but as someone with a penchant for putdown of anything that
might possibly be interpreted as evidence of UFOs from a source
more exotic than your imagination.

While I personally think the Sci Fi Channel people are wasting
money and time to seek UFO facts by hounding the government to
disclose what they might know, and feeling that insight could
better be pursued by instrumented studies of UFOs, it is, all
the same, annoying to see the use of terms like "self-styled"
thrown around by a scientifically trained person like Jim Oberg
who should know better -- either under the protocols of science
or by proper journalistic etiquette.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:23:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:39:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:06:33 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:34:05 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>><snip>

>>>>"Oh please, Mr. Rimmer, this is so much intellectualized tally-
>>>>whacking. Trindade is one of the most vetted and rigorously
>>>>parsed reports ever made. Your less than academic and plainly
>>>>obdurate refutation serves only to make you appear petty,
>>>>uninformed, and not remotely convincing.

>>>If Trindade has been so thoroughly vetted and rigorously parsed
>>>(?) why did none of the investigators, at the time or later,
>>>speak to any of the witnesses othet that the photographer and
>>>his two friends? Did they just say "ah, well, that's that
>>>sorted, no need to bother anyone else", and go home?
>>>Verily, you've found a dissembling tick-turd and insist that we
>>all pole vault over it. You suggest a hoax based on a straw ipso
>>facto you have generated yourself and use the negative
>>manufactured to imply a proof for your contrived case. I submit,
>>sir, that you have no -idea- what the investigators did or
>>didn't do, and not very cleverly paint them much later and after
>>the fact as hoaxers or shambling buffoons. When it's all said
>>and done I can only conclude that the investigation as it stands
>>provides the required verity because the quality (explained in a
>>moment) of the persons involved in the affair is high and high
>>profile and is documented as high, while the knee-jerk
>>performance of persons on your side of the isle (Menzel, among
>>others) was duplicitous, dissembling, and decidedly unscientific
>>from the beginning. Where the verity was, from the beginning, is
>>plain.

<snip>

>All of whom were friends in the same underwater photography
>club.

John Rimmer has never provided one stitch of even prima facie
evidence that being in the same underwater photography club has
any bearing upon the quality of their testimony as witnesses, or
upon the integrity of same.

Put up evidence for that, or hush the baseless speculation, Mr.
Rimmer.

Unsubstantiated suspicions and innuendo have no value in
objective inquiry.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of trifles." --
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                                 UFO Debate

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:38:45 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:45:13 -0500
Subject: UFO Debate


List,

The Dana Centre opens on November 19, and will be a forum for
debates about contemporary science, technology and culture. It's
a collaborative enterprise between the Science Museum and
private industry, and is based in a purpose-built venue adjacent
to the Science Museum in South Kensington, London.

On December 9 they'll be hosting a debate about UFOs. Details of
this debate, and the Dana Centre more generally, can be found at
the following link:

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/danasplash/eventpages/091203_Science_Museum.asp


Further details of the debate, including position statements and
Q & A material on UFOs, will be posted on the Dana Centre
website next month, just before the official opening.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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                  Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:37:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:47:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified - Hatch


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:44:37 -0700
>Subject: Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified

>FWD (fort) Re: Eltanin 'Antenna' Identified

>Terry, I've been a skeptic concerning the Eltanin "antenna"
>since the very first time I saw or heard of it.

>But NOT for the reasons here cited (which I'd first read a few
>days back on several other sites, including Larry Hatch's own).

>I'd long believed that there was nothing in the least paranormal
>about the Eltanin "antenna." It was, I assumed, a piece of
>workaday radio-telemetric electronic equipmemt which had been
>dropped from or jettisoned by a perfectly-terrestrial ocean-
>going vessel of some type or the other, and which had then
>proceeded to embed itself upright in the sea floor. Or perhaps
>it had even fallen from an aircraft.

>Whatever else is said concerning the Eltanin "antenna," it is
>ALL RIGHT ANGLES. The "sponge" drawing clearly is NOT.

>So I don't see much resemblence between the photograph and the
>sketch.

>Thus I'm not yet convinced by the "sponge" explanation.


Hello Terry, George:

Like George, I at first thought it might be some man-made junk
that went overboard or sank, anything from a hat rack to a real
antenna.

For me (and most if not all others, judging from the reaction so
far) its as close to a perfect match as anyone could possibly
hope for.

Neither the original photo nor the drawing show perfect 90
degree angles, they are both shown at a perspective which
indicates 90 degree angles .. i.e. from a z-axis elevation
slightly above the object as well as to one side. There is no
need for exact right angles on such a natural object, nor did
the original scientist claim that.

The match is _so_ good, I was afraid somebody would accuse me
and Tom of inventing it! Tom stands by with the original book to
show otherwise, and of course a coverup dating back to 1888
seems rather unlikely [chuckle!]

Thanks for your inputs.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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               Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:15:04 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:03:40 -0500
Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Harney


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:21:03 -0700
>Subject: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 18-21

>Victim Mentality In Abductees: An Unacceptable Concept.
>An Essay by Ann Druffel, (California), FSR Consultant

>[This article was first published in the MUFON UFO JOURNAL for
>May 2000, and has been revised slightly by the author for the
>overseas issue in FSR - Editor FSR.]


>In August 1998 my most recent book, HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF
>AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION, was published by Three Rivers >Press, a
>"How To" division of Random House, followed closely by a U.K.
>edition in November 1998 from Piatkus Publishers Limited.

<snip>

>During a magic 2.5 hours with Art Bell on COAST TO COAST, I
>fielded intelligent questions from numerous listeners and will
>presently appear on DREAMLAND with Whitley Strieber. All this
>demonstrates the interest in the subject of "resisters" who
>successfully tell the abduction phenomenon, whatever it is, to
>go away and quit bothering them.

>Many abduction researchers in various countries have sent
>letters of agreement and encouragement, and my data base of
>"resisters" grows rapidly as many abductees continue to share
>their experiences, containing approximately 100 cases to date.
>Yet a few top abduction researchers continue to ignore the new
>concept and message in the book, namely, that stout-hearted
>witnesses and abductees can and do fend off so-called "UFO
>aliens", and even permanently rid themselves of the visitations.

>In conversation at the annual Laramie Conference last year with
>a well-known author and abduction researcher, he told me that he
>came across "resisters" in his case load but did not elaborate
>how he handled this information. I know for a fact that other
>researchers come across resisters, but these cases somehow never
>make it into print. Do these particular researchers dismiss
>"resisters" because they don't fit in with their own hypotheses?
>If so, I feel that this attitude is unscientific. In science,
>don't we work with all data that comes to us from rational,
>honest sources and not try to "screen out" what is unacceptable
>to us?

>Curious as to why certain researchers have been ignoring the new
>concept and message in HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF >>
>AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION, I recently sent friendly letters,
>copies of the book
>and related bio/resume/bibliographical material to four of those
>who had been so silent, with a simple request for feedback and
>input. None of the four responded. Their silence was so
>deafening that it allowed valuable insight to seep into my brain
>- information which seems so startling that I feel impelled to
>share it with you. Namely: Certain factors in the UFO field
>apparently *do not want* instances of successful resistance to
>come out. If they ignore the book and its new concept, will they
>perhaps not be tempted to try to advise their own traumatized
>abductees that resistance may be possible?

>Perhaps they do not believe that resistance works and so don't
>want abductees to even consider it for fear they will "fail" and
>emerge doubly traumatized? Or do they perhaps sincerely believe
>that experiencers have *no right* to resist? What other reasons
>would prevent researchers from learning vital, new information
>about a phenomenon on which they have laboured for decades?

>All four "silent" researchers I refer to are Americans working
>mainly with American abductees. I do not know if any researchers
>in the U.K. share these thoughts, but practically nothing has
>been written in overseas journals, either, about successful
>resistance. Do researchers truly feel that the abduction
>phenomenon is so overpowering that it is able to overthrow the
>principles of freedom on which democracies and republics
>worldwide were founded - the same principles of freedom from
>fear and oppression which guide our everyday lives?


I have read Ann Druffel's interesting book, and it seems that
the techniques she describes can apparently be effective
regardless of the beliefs of the abductee as to the true nature
of the experience (real encounters with ETs, "interdimensional"
beings, unusual dreams, illusions, or whatever). I share her
puzzlement as to why certain prominent abduction researchers
have apparently decided to ignore her work. For example, I could
find no mention of it on Budd Hopkins's "Intruders Foundation"
site or on David Jacobs's site.

Could it be that her resistance techniques, if applied
enthusiastically, and given the widest publicity might
drastically reduce the number of abductees, thus forcing certain
persons to look for something else to do?

Any comments?

John Harney








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                  Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:06:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:09:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Connors


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:23:00 EST
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:03:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

<snip>

Hi Robert,

Bottom line is that an audience doesn't care about the financial
end of the business and the subject of Ufology is already
sensational enough by its very nature.

Absolute bottom line is that Sci-Fi Channel powers that be,
believe their audience lives in the Bozone Layer... that's to
say, they must believe they have an audience who wouldn't be
able to grasp the simplest concept and that since they are
'captive', they can be fed anything and incapable of paying
attention for more than 20 seconds.

That's the impression I, as an audience member, get when I see
chromoing faces, jumpy camera-work and one minute of information
that is repeated ad nasum infinitum for two hours.

When the commercials are far better than the show, that tells
you something important... it's the money... but do you ever see
the knowlegeable men and women who spent decades in research,
receive anything more than a sound byte and a thank you for
giving away free, to production twonks, their work and
expertise?

How could it have been done better? Simple.

Have a solid introduction. Produce a 30 minute re-enactment using
as few "Fellini" shots as possible. Following the re-enactment,
let the major researcher (Gordon), have a full five minutes to
give an overview of what he has accomplished and what he is
seeking. Then a visit to the site and intros of people involved
and do voice overs while showing the details. After that, the
town meeting for about 8 minutes. Last, but not least, a recap
and explanation of what the Sci-Fi Channel is hoping to
accomplish.

BAM! A show that is on target, focused, doesn't drift and
certainly captures the audience you really are attempting to
get. Who cares if brain dead teenagers can't focus for more than
30 seconds at a time. Ummm, like the Sci-Fi Channel can't
comprehend that age has nothing to do with Ufologicial
demographics?

Oh, I taught radio, television and film at both secondary and
post-secondary institutions for many years, so I'm not a brain
damaged opinion maker regarding this series on the Sci-Fi
Channel.


Wendy Connors

Faded Discs Project








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                   Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:34:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:12:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Hatch


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:23:00 EST

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:03:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:12:14 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Kaeser

<snip>

>>All I keep seeing is all fluff and no substance... but promises
>>that will change with each upcoming spectacular. Well, I've sat
>>through two productions and found them designed to appeal to
>>teenagers or people surrounded by the bozone layer, than trying
>>to really get serious people in science and academics to tune in
>>and help get their format and effort off the ground.

>Hi Wendy,

>The truth simply is that productions are designed around
>advertising bucks. Recently the NY times ran an article about
>how all the TV executives were all in a lather because the
>actual number of TV viewers has plunged through the basement
>this year. According to the article TV viewing is targeted to an
>audience of 18-34 year old men and for some reason(s) they
>aren't watching TV this year. Apparently they (meaning the TV
>folks) use these basis for how much ad revenue they squeeze out
>of their advertisers, including promises of free ads and money
>back to advertisers if they don't make a particular level/mark.

>The advertisers squeeze the TV folks, who squeeze the TV
>production people (said another way crap rolls down hill) to
>make this or that change, to alter the production, cancel the
>show, add another show...anything for the cash.

>I am sure there have been other shows, but one of my favorites
>was Unsolved Mysteries. The show covered the material, covered
>the case in the time alloted and seemed to do a reasonable job
>without all the hype, 1 minute of show, 3 minutes of commercial.

>>Again. Sci-Fi Channel does some great shows and I watch it
>>several times a week (until I become frustrated with the
>>overkill of commercials). But they are not astute enough to
>>realize that there is a huge audience out there that would like
>>to see an entertaining, but serious, exploration of the UFO
>>phenomena, without the glitz, hype and shallow material to
>>present.

>Goes back to advertisers and money.


Hello Robert, Wendy...


I agree with your assessments. We all know what a charnel house
TV is. Maybe I'm missing something here.  My simple question is:

Who but a couch potato relies on television for anything valid
about UFOs?

I don't even watch for entertainment, and get my news off the
Internet. If I were a sports fan, I would turn on the set once
in a while. The weather is on the car radio.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                    Recent Sighting Reports From HBCC UFO

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:28:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:39:10 -0500
Subject: Recent Sighting Reports From HBCC UFO


Houston, British Columbia

Date:  October 22, 3003
Time:  7:00 p.m.

I just received a call from a local resident who was witness to
an amazing sight just west of Houston on October 22, 2003 at
7:00 p.m. pst. The lady had phoned to see if anyone else in the
area had made a report on the object.

The lady was on her way back home from Smithers, British
Columbia which is about a 45 minute drive from Houston. She had
a number of young girls with her as she was bringing them back
home from a dance rehearsal which they were attending in
Smithers. As she made her way up Hungry Hill, and driving slowly
due to the foggy condition and just as the lady was to break out
of the fog she noticed a extremely bright white object a head of
them and not very high up in the sky. As they motored along the
object dropped quickly from the higher altitude to just above
the tree tops, still moving towards the west, or in the Smithers
direction. (HBCC UFO Note: The witnesses said the white light
was so low over the tree tops she thought it was going to hit).

She told me her first thought it was an airplane when it was at
the higher altitude, but when it dropped so suddenly she ruled
that idea out, still not knowing what it was she was observing.
The lady went on to say the object/light was huge. Flat like a
dinner plate with something hanging from the bottom of it, there
was one single green light on the object on the bottom. She
mentioned that they were maybe only a half mile away from the
object at it's closet point to them. The witness also said at
one point the object moved in different directions carrying
these maneuvers out very rapidly.

The lady said she wanted to stop to take a good look due to her
driving the car, but all the young kids in the vehicle were very
frightend so she kept traveling along slowly and glancing behind
her from time to time until the object/light had disappeared
from her sight. There was no sound heard coming from the object,
she did say they had the radio on, but it was turned off when
they spotted the object and the car window rolled down.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------

Houston, British Columbia

Date:  October 22, 3003
Time:  8:54 p.m.

I had another call tonight from a fellow who reported seeing a
very large bright blue meteor/fireball shoot straight across the
sky from inside his home. It was heading from the east towards
the west. There was a very long trail behind it. After he gave
me the report I put my boots and coat on and went outside. I
looked in the direction he told me where the blue ball of light
was seen. Sure enough, still in a clear night's sky a large
black contrail could be seen very clearly running across the sky
from the east to the west exactly where he said the object was.

I called a friend who was living a good distance to the west of
me to find out if he may have saw it, but he was inside at the
time.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------
Resolute Bay, Canada

Date:  Week of November 6th to Nov 14th 2001
Time:  12:45 p.m.

Hello, my story starts with a visit to Cornwallis Island on the
week of Nov 6th to Nov 14th 2001.

After my visit was complete we departed Cornwallis Island and
flew to Resolute. We had about a 3 hour wait for our connecting
flight to Nanisivik. So we stayed in the airport and waited for
our plane to show up.

On a previous project I had purchased a new Sony digital top of
the line camera and I had this with me for the site visit to
document an area where I was going to, etc.

I took several shots of the surrounding airport terrain and when
I got back to the office a week later I went through the 100
plus photos. To my surprise picture number 97 had an object in
the background. This shot was taken at approx. 12:45 in the
afternoon in the direction of the end of the runway.

I have enlarged this photo and examined it in many ways. It
sends a little chill up and down my spine every time I look at
it. My friends and work colleagues are speechless . Those that
are do not believe in UFO's don't know what to say or can't.

When you enlarge this photo you will see this object at an angle
and underneath it you can see three columns of disfigured
airspace (possibly drives). The afternoon was clear and crisp
and the shacks at the end of the runway clearly are
proportionate to the object passing just past the end of the
runway. I did not see the object to take this photo I pointed at
the end of the runway and took the shot, what was in the shot as
I said was discovered later.

Let me know what you think of this photograph.

Regards
Picture can be viewed at: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/resolute.htm
------------

Telkwa, British Columbia

Date:  October 19, 2003
Time:  12:00 p.m. (midday)

I received a report from a witness who resides in Telkwa,
British Columbia. Him and his son were out cutting firewood near
Paradise Lake which is located approx: 6 kilometers east from
Telkwa. As the fellows were loading the truck up with the
firewood they cut, the son yelled out to his father to look
north and just a above the tree tops. A large glowing white
globe of lights flew very quickly, almost skimming the tree
tops. The object was heading toward the Babine Lake area. There
was not a sound heard coming from the light, matter of fact the
light was maybe 300 feet away from the men when they first
witnessed it.

HBCC UFO Note: I am taking a quick run out to see the folks and
taking some more information on this sighting. Updates will
follow.

Thank you to the witnesses for their report.

--------

Telkwa, British Columbia

Date:  October 26, 2003
Time:  2:30 a.m.

A gentleman called to report that his wife woke up at 2:30 a.m.
on October 26, 2003 as she was heading to the washroom. As she
passed through their home, and glancing out the large picture
window she spotted a ball of off white light with a ring of
bright white light running around it. The description was that
it looked like the planet Saturn. The object was low in the
Bulkley Valley. It was flying close to Highway #16. The fellow
told me his wife watched it for a brief minute before continuing
her journey to the washroom. When she came back out the object
had disappeared. While his wife was observing the object, she
reports that it was making all kinds of strange maneuvers.

HBCC UFO Note: I am taking a quick run out to see the folks and
taking some more information on this sighting. Updates will
follow.

Thank you to the witnesses for their report.

------------


Regina, Saskatchewan

Date:  October 25, 2003
Time:  approx: 7:00 p.m.

Hello:

Just a quick note to tell you about the oddest thing I saw on
Saturday, October 25. I walked out of farmer's field located
approx. 25 K East and approx. 10 K North of Regina at 1855 after
spending a couple of hours Deer hunting. I was sitting on the
dirt road and was waiting for my ride when I noticed a light
suddenly appear west of me. It was heavily overcast with clouds
down to about 300 - 400 m and the light just winked on. It was
orange-yellow and appeared to be the same brightness as Mars has
been this year. The light slowly started to move North and would
accelerate and slow down. It was 2 fingers at arm's length above
the horizon and it traveled about 20 degrees North from its
starting point before it came to a dead stop and reversed
direction. It moved in the same odd accelerating/slowing down
motion as before as it travelled back South to reach the spot
where it first appeared. I also became aware that several farm
dogs were barking frantically, as well as cattle "screaming" and
coyotes howling frantically as well. The cattle noise scared me
alot as I have never heard cattle make noise like that and I
hope I never do again. This light made this North /South
traverse several times and I never heard any noise from it. I
had the odd sensation that it was looking for something - if
that makes any sense.

At 7:10 it moved back to the same place were it appeared and
then faded out - like a car headlight with dying battery. The
animals stopped making noise as the light faded out. I called
the Regina airport when I got home, but they had no information
about any reports from others. It was the oddest thing I've ever
seen and I hope I never see anything like it again.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

HBCC UFO is investigating this report.
-----------

Montreal, Quebec

Date:  October 17, 2003
Time:  8:15 p.m. EST

On Friday evening at 8:15 p.m. est I had a call from a youngster
who wanted to make a report on some unusual lights which the
family had been watching. What I didn't realize was that while
they were talking to me on the phone, the display of lights were
taking place right now. The youngster asked if I would like to
talk to her mother, she called for her to come to the telephone
and the Mom described what they were observing at the moment.

About an hour before arriving at their home, the family was at
the shopping center and mentioned they could see the lights in
the sky. Now calling me from their home, they are looking out
the window and watching an amazing display of lights high above
them in the sky. The 4 lights at equal distance from one another
stayed in the same area in the sky, they turned around as if one
would be looking at a Ferris wheel. She also noticed aircraft
moving close to where the lights were. The witness described the
lights as being a neon green in color. She also told me the
lights would turn like the hands on a clock, but very quickly,
then they would come together in the middle, becoming very
bright. Then the lights would move back out again and perform
the same maneuvers all over again but moving faster each time.
No sound was heard.

Thank you to the family for the report.

HBCC UFO

-------- Laval, Quebec

Date:  October 17, 2003 Time:

Another call came in from a gentleman living in the Laval,
Quebec area. He said he was watching a display of lights while
talking to me on the telephone. He went on to say what he was
watching was very "weird". He said he could see 4 circles of
light at a high altitude turning in a circle, again like a
Ferris wheel at a high rate of speed. The witness went and
changed phones so he could look at the lights and at the same
time giving me a good description of what was going on. The
weather condition were half and half according to the fellow.
Meaning it was overcast but one could see clear breaks all
throughout the sky.

The lights are going around in a circle (clockwise), then all of
the lights would move at the same time towards the center of the
circle, then merge which made one very brilliant ball of white
light. The fellow said he was a good distance from any airport,
he noticed no aircraft in the area. I asked if any sound could
be heard, he said no due to a lot of background noise. I asked
the witness if he knew of any kind of events taking place in the
surrounding area that might cause this light display, he had no
knowledge of anything going on. From the time he first saw the
lights and the call came to me, the witness had been watching
them for approx: 10:00 minutes. Just before the end of our
conversation he yelled out and told me the lights went out, they
just blinked out !

HBCC UFO Note: I contacted the CTV station in Montreal today
(Saturday October 18, 2003) and left a message to have them call
me back at my toll free line. A reporter telephoned back and I
explained what had taken place, and asked did anyone file a
report to the T.V. station. She said yes, one person did contact
them and told their story about what was witnessed. I also tried
to talk with other media outlets in the area, but it seems darn
near everyone is out for the weekend. So messages were left and
I hope to hear more on this event.

Also there could be a very rational explanation for what folks
saw, but as it stands right now, it is an unknown event until I
can at least dig up some more information on it. I will keep
everyone updated if more comes in.

If indeed this was not a man made light display, then we do have
a major UFO event which has taken place over the province of
Quebec, Canada. I almost forgot to add that 2 other families
besides the ones in the reports above also witnessed the lights.

Thank you to the gentleman who files the report.


Take care,

Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research







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   Oct > Oct 28

                    Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:41:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Tonnies


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:08:16 +0100
>Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues

<snip>

>A more intriguing question is, why was the crew not rescued by
>another craft ? This is where other speculations take place. Was
>it a staged accident, to reveal their presence, secretly? But
>then what about the victims? Did they sacrifice themselves? Or
>were they just "androids" that the real aliens did not care much
>about? It seems to me that all this is speculation, without the
>faintest bit of evidence.

You're absolutely correct about that last point, but I've always
liked the idea that the Roswell crash was deliberate - a way of
getting our attention. The aliens could have been biological
mannequins or expendable drones. Or not. But if an alien
intelligence wanted to present themselves to us in 1947,
offering us a crashed saucer (with bodies) might be a reasonable
way of doing it. As a political gesture, it would have been a
way of saying "See, we're fallible, too. We're not omniscient.
 We'll even let you take a look at some of our technology. What
you do with it is, of course, up to you."

I'm aware of some second-hand testimony that the "aliens" were
dummies - but not our dummies. For a really neat slant on
Roswell, I recommend Whitley Strieber's "Majestic" (fiction).

=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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   Oct > Oct 28

                Ohio's New Crop Circle & recent UFO activity

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:20:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:47:00 -0500
Subject: Ohio's New Crop Circle & recent UFO activity


A region already rampant with rumor and speculation, as recently
alleged in the Adams County People's Defender newspaper, has
been dealt another blast of mystery and intrigue. A new crop
formation found southwest of the small town of West Union has
residents and other observers wondering aloud if Southern Ohio
is "ground zero" for mystery and strangeness.

Crop Circle investigator Jeffrey Wilson states: "Ground
descriptions of the formation is that there are at least six
circles (possibly more) in soybeans; one circle has a ring with
3 straight pathways extending off it.  The description of the
floor lay in the circles was that it was impressive.  Also,
there may be two circular areas that look to have been swirled
down only about halfway - not all the way to the ground.  The
total size of the formation appears to smaller than the Locust
Grove or Bainbridge formations, but still quite large."

Wilson adds that the farmer is planning on harvesting the field
Tuesday and that his team comprised of Ted Robertson, Roger
Sugden and others, will be at the scene as soon as possible. His
report will appear at http://www.cropcirclenews.com

The latest formation only adds to a list of unusual activity
alleged in recent months. A small compilation of recent Southern
Ohio reports are assembled below:

 - Following a February 2, 2002 UFO situation near Maysville,
Kentucky, a number of similar reports began to surface from the
Ohio River city of Portsmouth in the months afterward. One
Portsmouth resident claiming that he would sight an unusual
object in the late night hours as it hovered in the vicinity of
the bridges.

 - On May 1, 2003, a UFO was seen near Ashland, Kentucky. The
black triangular object, the size of a small car, allegedly flew
near the Route 60 Bridge.

 - On May 3rd in Flemingsburg, Kentucky, a crop circle appeared
in a rye field along Tea Run Road. According to the initial
witnesses, including Fleming County Sheriff Jerry Wagner, the
donut-shaped formation was a perfect circle 50-yards in
diameter.

 - On June 2nd, a resident of West Chester, Ohio reported a
dramatic UFO sighting near his residence that was accompanied by
a local power failure. The witness, awakened around 2:30 AM by
the beeping sound of a battery backup to his computer, detected
the smell of ozone and went to his window to see an odd object
in the sky. The disk-shaped object was compared to the size of a
bus with bright lights spinning very fast. The lights spun so
fast they almost appeared to strobe or pulsate.

 - On June 6 at 2:30 a.m. in Monroe, Ohio, a Butler County
resident observed an unusual bulb-shaped UFO at a 1,000-foot
elevation, traveling from a south to northwest direction. At the
moment the object was directly overhead, the witness claims he
lost satellite reception and the lights in his house dimmed.

 - And at 11:00 p.m. on August 22 in Hillsboro, Ohio, an
enormous object was seen in the eastern sky. Cincinnati UFO
Investigator Donnie Blessing was told that multiple witnesses
observed a circular object that had a rotating set of white
lights around the center, with one of the lights shining down on
the ground.

 - And two days later in nearby Locust Grove, Ohio, a crop
circle was discovered in a soybean field across from the
legendary Serpent Mound Indian Burial Ground in Adams County.

 - Following separate reports of UFOs sighted in Bethel, Ohio
and objects videotaped from Bainbridge, Akron and Canton,
residents in Proctorville and Chesapeake, Ohio complained of
mysterious flashing lights "chasing each other" on Sunday and
Monday nights, Aug. 31 & Sept. 1. The Lawrence County Sheriffs
Department received phone calls inquiring about the lights, as
did television stations WOWK and WSAZ.

 - Shortly afterward, a spectacular Crop Formation was
discovered near the Siep Mound Indian Burial Ground in Ross
County, Ohio.

 - Ohio UFO Sightings Continued on September 13, 2003, when an
Adams County resident reported a tremendous object seen near
Belfast. A total of four witnesses spoke of a triangular-shaped
formation of lights on one large object, the lights reportedly
flashed in sequence and would simultaneously alternate in color
from pinkish-red, blue, white to yellow. The triangular
arrangement of lights were comprised of 4-or 5 lights with the
peak of the triangle facing downward, at the bottom.

 - On Monday evening, Sept. 22 around 7:30 pm, a massive UFO was
sighted in Franklin County, Ohio. A motorist traveling on
Beaverbrook Road observed a colossal disc-shaped object floating
silently overhead. The witness, interviewed at length by the
National Institute for Discovery Science and MUFON
investigators, said the monstrous object seen near Ghanna, Ohio,
was floating silently over the treetops.

 - On September 23, Mason County, Kentucky schoolteacher Martha
Franklin and her husband Michael captured strange images on a
"deer surveillance camera" mounted in woodland on their property
in Ellsberry, Ohio. The photographs, published in the Adams
County People's Defender newspaper, seem to challenge rational
explanation. The camera, used to photograph wildlife, can be
triggered by motion or a heat source, and documented several
photographs, one showing a saucer shaped light source above the
treeline.

 - And at 10:30 p.m. on September 24, a resident of Franklin,
Ohio contacted Wright Patterson Air Force Base to report a
remarkable UFO seen in the sky near her Butler County home. A
medical assistant, she and her three children spotted a strange
pattern of huge green flashing lights when approaching her
residence in the Heartland subdivision.

 - On Wednesday, October 15, Mr. Stuart Linder of Hamilton,
Ohio, spotted an object that was hovering over the Hamilton High
School in Hamilton, Ohio. The UFO, described as a multi-colored
"upside down diamond," rotated in place, emanating a 'glow' for
about 10-minutes before speeding away to the west.

The undeniable upsurge of UFO and crop circle reports have
flummoxed the few and unfunded UFO researchers who try to track
and document the many claims. Will the challenge of UFO
investigation reveal evidence of UFO visitation, and will the
spate of sighting activity continue to befuddle a region already
tender from its share of unusual activity? Perhaps only time
will tell.

For more information or to report a UFO sightings, contact

Kenny Young

Cincinnati UFO Research hotline = 513-588-4548
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo







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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:39:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:23:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:06:33 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:34:05 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>>If Trindade has been so thoroughly vetted and rigorously parsed
>>>>(?) why did none of the investigators, at the time or later,
>>>>speak to any of the witnesses othet that the photographer and
>>>>his two friends? Did they just say "ah, well, that's that
>>All of whom were friends in the same underwater photography
>>club.

>John Rimmer has never provided one stitch of even prima facie
>evidence that being in the same underwater photography club has
>any bearing upon the quality of their testimony as witnesses, or
>upon the integrity of same.

>Put up evidence for that, or hush the baseless speculation, Mr.
>Rimmer.

>Unsubstantiated suspicions and innuendo have no value in
>objective inquiry.

Well said, Ray. John drives, or imagines he drives, on and on,
though the tank has long since been empty, if it ever had any
gas in it to start with. He's going nowhere, all the while
demanding - with ever greater and more desperate urgency - that
we go there with him.


Jerry Clark







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                  Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:23:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:27:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Ledger


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:56:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>From: James Oberg <jamesoberg@houston.rr.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:53:33 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:12:14 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>><snip>

>>>What they didn't emphasize (and it may be that the information
>>>came in too late to make it a part of the presentation) is that
>>>a Chief Scientist for Orbital Debris at NASA and ruled out any
>>>possibility of the Kecksberg incident being caused by Russian or
>>>American space debris falling out of orbit. This is a major blow
>>>to the explanation that is often promoted to explain the event.

>>I'm far from home on vacation and have not seen the show, but
>>I remember what I told them - I am not arguing that the object
>>WAS the Venera ('Kosmos-96') capsule, merely that arguing by
>>'elimination' hasn't ruled out prosaic explanations _like_ that
>>one.

>I guess we all know how crayfish move when their position seems
>endangered. :) Down in Texas we call it "crawfishing" (moving as
>a crayfish does when frightened).

>>Steve's comment falls well within the scope of my argument. His
>>unspoken assumption is, "The US Air Force would NEVER lie to us
>>about tracking data, even if it's the data for a spacecraft they
>>may have illegally snatched and don't want the Soviets to
>>realize." Based on that assumption (the same one Dr. Johnson
>>carefully alluded to with his reference to 'catalogued
>>objects'), he argues that the US Air Force _has_ lied to us.
>>Duh.....

>>There may well be ways to rule out Kosmos-96 based on tracking
>>data, but they have not been found yet by these self-styled
>>investigators. Nor do I think I will help them further.

>Declaring investigators to be "self-styled" is a purely
>propagandistic term coined by yellow-bellied newspaper
>reporters, so I'm not surprised that Jim Oberg adopts the tactic
>when he cannot deal with substantive issues!

Hi Ray and Jim,

I've snipped the rest of this debate because basically it is a
difference of opinion between you. I respect the views of you
both. I have only one comment concerning Jim's asessment of UFO
investigators as being "self styled".

I suggest to him in that as a writer of and investigator of the
phenomenon that Jim himself is "self styled". After all we, Jim
included, are trying to find answers and get to the bottom of
this phenomenon because no one else will do so-"officially". Jim
is well aware of some of the others who have attacked this
enigma, with credentials equal to or exceeding his own. He's not
the only NASA expert out there. Since no one is handing out
doctorates in [that dreaded appellation] Ufology, we are all
then forced to be "self styled".

As for the Keckberg incident, what happened there is still an
open question. Has anyone explored the possibility that the
object was of American manufacture and possibly contained a
nuclear power source or some other sensitive instrumentation or
material? Could it, on December 9, 1965, have possibly been a
piece of some "black" technology,  a precursor of the Soviets
COSMOS-954 (a USSR satellite with a nuclear reactor) crash in
the North West Territories in Canada on January 24, 1978?

Best,

Don Ledger







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                     Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Morton

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:42:03 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:45:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues - Morton


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:52:11 -0800 (PST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:08:16 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Roswell & Other Issues

<snip>

>>A more intriguing question is, why was the crew not rescued by
>>another craft ? This is where other speculations take place. Was
>>it a staged accident, to reveal their presence, secretly? But
>>then what about the victims? Did they sacrifice themselves? Or
>>were they just "androids" that the real aliens did not care much
>>about? It seems to me that all this is speculation, without the
>>faintest bit of evidence.

>You're absolutely correct about that last point, but I've always
>liked the idea that the Roswell crash was deliberate - a way of
>getting our attention. The aliens could have been biological
>mannequins or expendable drones. Or not. But if an alien
>intelligence wanted to present themselves to us in 1947,
>offering us a crashed saucer (with bodies) might be a reasonable
>way of doing it. As a political gesture, it would have been a
>way of saying "See, we're fallible, too. We're not omniscient.
>We'll even let you take a look at some of our technology. What
>you do with it is, of course, up to you."

>I'm aware of some second-hand testimony that the "aliens" were
>dummies - but not our dummies. For a really neat slant on
>Roswell, I recommend Whitley Strieber's "Majestic" (fiction).


And a possible clue to the intent of the aliens is why I raised
the question of the "blue light" reported by the wire service.
It would be nice to know who reported the blue light to the wire
service, when it was seen, where it was seen, and for how long.
(I don't think anyone knows that at this point).

If the crash was an accident, and the ship wasn't a rescue ship
itself, then one or more rescue ships would almost certainly be
dispatched to the scene to look for survivors and rescue them
(if the crew were not androids or dummies). Some searching would
be involved.

If the crash was a staged accident, I would expect a ship to
inspect the scene shortly afterwards, and then leave. But there
would be no searching involved: They would know where the scene
was staged.

There is a possibility, depending on the circumstances, that the
blue light was a rescue ship which arrived too late to be of any
help. But it might just as well have been a ship which inspected
the scene and general area (the debris field and surrounding
environs) to ensure that all had gone according to plan.

Or the blue light may have nothing to do with the Roswell crash.

The crash (or crashes) at Roswell seems too neat and pat for it
to have been a genuine accident. I too have always had the
feeling that "the saucer" was a gift disguised as an accident,
but it's just a hunch. After all, delivering a used saucer to
the New Mexico desert, intact, with the doors open and a
certified odometer reading taped to the window, would make us
extremely suspicious, but it might also cause us to become
dependent on their technical largesse, with the withering of our
own efforts.

That kind of manna is best delivered to its desert consumers in
disguise, as one would bury a vitamin pill for a dog or cat in
its food, lest the intended recipient reject the gift, or expect
a steady stream of them. The world doesn't need any more "Cargo
Cults", dependent on a higher civilization to deliver more
goodies which never arrive.


Dave Morton







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                       Sci Fi: We Got Secret UFO Files

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:37:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:37:41 -0500
Subject: Sci Fi: We Got Secret UFO Files




Source: The New York Post

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/9160.htm

Sci Fi: We Got Secret UFO Files

By Don Kaplan


October 27, 2003 --  THE SCI FI Channel has cracked open the
file cabinet containing the real-life version of "The X-Files."

SCI FI pressured NASA into releasing top secret records about a
1965 UFO incident that took place in Kecksburg, Pa. and won.

Now about 36 pages of classified documents that have been kept
under lock and key for almost four decades are being exposed to
the public.

The release is part of an ongoing effort by SCI FI - along with
a D.C. lobbying firm and former Clinton chief of staff, John
Podesta - to pressure government agencies into making public
top-secret records of various UFO related incidents that are
over 25 years old.

"I think its fair to say that we have truly entered the realm of
science fiction in Washington, D.C.," said Podesta.

"When it's fair game to disclose the identity of a clandestine
CIA agent but not the records of an unexplained crash in
Kecksburg, Pennsylvania that occurred 38 years ago."


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]







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                                Guessing Game

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:48:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:48:46 -0500
Subject: Guessing Game




Source: The Star - Malaysia

http://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2003/10/27/features/6551098&
sec=features


Guessing Game

My mother is getting old, and sometimes she says or does things
to remind me how much she's aged these past couple of years. For
the most part, her mind is still alert, but what used to be
slightly eccentric behaviour now makes me wonder what's really
going on with her.

Take the other day for example. I was chatting with her on the
telephone, asking about all her aches and pains - migraines, two
hip replacements and a by-pass op - when she suddenly said:
"You'll never guess what I saw the other day."

I don't know about you, but I'm not overly fond of sentences
that begin with the words: You'll never guess. You'll never
guess what I stabbed him with, who I sat next to on the moon
buggy, who I'm having an affair with, how many kilos of
chocolate I've consumed in my lifetime ... the possibilities are
usually endless.

Of course, since she's my mother, and since she's getting on a
bit, and since I'm in danger of ending up exactly like her, I
humoured her.

"I don't know. What did you see the other day?" I said, trying
to sound like an interested, dutiful daughter. Well, as dutiful
as one can be living in Malaysia with a mother in faraway
Scotland.

"You'll never guess in a million years," came the response.

Being challenged to take a guess at something is one thing, but
not being able to guess something in a million years is quite
another. If the other person knows you'll never guess something
in a million years, why even mention it? Why can't people just
give the facts as they are without playing endless games that
have probably been going on since the advent of man, or at least
since man could count to a million? I think cave men probably
introduced the "you'll never guess" spiel. I can just picture
Org, the man who invented the wheel, sitting outside his cave,
saying to his friend Yid, "You'll never guess what I invented
today."

Yid responds by saying, "Ugh!"

"You'll never guess in a million years."

"Ugh!"

They sit there silently watching the ice caps melt for a few
years, until Org can't stand it any longer.

"Like, duh-brain, I just invented the wheel. What do you have to
say to that?"

"Ugh!"

Org then test-drives his latest invention, but loses control of
the contraption because he hasn't invented a steering wheel, and
accidentally runs over the amazed Yid.

"Ugh!"

Org then approaches Yid's widow, and says: "Brittney, you'll
never guess what I did today?"

Back to the telephone call with my mother - I think I was a
little short on humour that day, because I found myself saying
to the woman who gave me 50% of her DNA, "Mum, why can't you
just tell me? Neither of us have a million years."

"Well, I saw a UFO in the back garden," she announced in a
"stand back and be amazed" tone of voice. Rather like the tone
of voice that Org must have assumed when he told Yid about the
wheel, an altogether different tone from the one which he must
have assumed when speaking to Brittney.

"You saw a UFO in the back garden?"

"Yes."

"If it was already in the back garden, how do you know it was a
UFO? Surely, if it wasn't hovering in the air, it could've only
been a UO."

"Oh no, it was definitely a UFO. I saw it coming down. It was
round, flat and silent, and surrounded by flames."

"Then the back garden must have gotten scorched."

"Oh no, it only hovered over the garden for a minute. Then,
without a sound, it was gone."

"Did anyone else see this flying saucer?"

"Oh yes, the dog saw it, too. Ben was barking and running all
over the place."

"Mum, Ben is always barking and running all over the place."

"Well, he was doing it more than usual."

"Did you tell anyone else about this?" I said, hoping my
telephone call had just caught her in a post-afternoon-nap, I'm-
not-quite-awake-yet state of disorientation.

"Oh yes, I called that young man down the road. You know the one
who's is crazy about extraterrestrial life."

"Yes," I said, hoping that I was the one who was in a dream-like
state.

"You'll never guess what happened after that."

"No, Mum, you're right: I'll never guess."

"Well, within an hour the garden was swarming with UFO
enthusiasts, and a man from the newspaper came to interview me."

At this point, it might be appropriate to let you know that a
recent survey revealed that 300 UFOs are seen over Scotland each
year - four times as many as France and Italy, which appear to
be the aliens' next favourite destinations. Even New Mexico,
home of the Roswell air base and area 51, where UFO believers
insist that alien corpses were kept and studied by the American
government, has seen less activity over the past decade.

Back in the garden, a newspaper reporter asked my mother if she
had noticed any unusual depression, dullness of mind, or
euphoria after the sighting.

My mother responded in the negative.

He then asked if she'd lost any time, and explained that
sometimes these aliens kidnap people and take them onto their
spaceship. They keep them for a few hours, performing fiendish
experiments on them, conducting DNA tests, and probing all their
orifices with nimble fingers. Then they return the humans home.

Because of the trance-like state induced by the inter-galactic
travellers, the abducted ones have no recollection of the
experience. Only their clocks tell them that hours have passed.
It's called "lost time".

"Well, did you lose any time?" I asked my mother when she wasn't
forthcoming with the information.

"Do you think I'm crazy?" she said. "Of course, I didn't lose
time. My cup of tea wasn't even cold."

"Well, that's reassuring."

"But you'll never guess what happened after that."

"UGH!"

[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








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   Oct > Oct 28

                  Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:11:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:34:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Kaeser


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:23:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

<snip>

>As for the Keckberg incident, what happened there is still an
>open question. Has anyone explored the possibility that the
>object was of American manufacture and possibly contained a
>nuclear power source or some other sensitive instrumentation or
>material? Could it, on December 9, 1965, have possibly been a
>piece of some "black" technology, a precursor of the Soviets
>COSMOS-954 (a USSR satellite with a nuclear reactor) crash in
>the North West Territories in Canada on January 24, 1978?

As noted in the press packet material made available by the Sci
Fi Channel,

see:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/oct/m25-007.shtml

Chief Scientist Nicholas L. Johnson, who is with the Orbital
Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center, stated that after
examining orbital information for the time period in question,
the "data shows that no man-made object from any country entered
our atmosphere and landed in Pennsylvania on the afternoon of
December 9. Cosmos 96 was the only catalogued object that came
down at all that day. He says that anything not catalogued would
have been so small that it would not have survived reentry. I
cannot absolutely confirm that it was not some completely
unreported event, but the chances of that are virtually nil,
said Johnson. You can't launch something without somebody seeing
it. By 1965 the US and Soviets were both reporting their
launches."

This may not eliminate the possibility of some secret device
that came down, but Johnson seems fairly confident in his
assessment, and this is coming from someone who is not connected
to the field and is merely examining the data that's available.
There certainly could be a mundane explanation for the Kecksburg
event, but the suggestion that it was Cosmos 96 appears to be
eliminated at this point.


Steve







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                          Secrecy News -- 10/28/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:27:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:10:06 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/28/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 93
October 28, 2003


**      ACCESS TO CRS REPORTS (TEMPORARILY?) CURTAILED
**      EMBARRASSED ARMY WEB SITE GOES OFFLINE
**      NAMES OF DSB MEMBERS TOO SENSITIVE FOR WEB
**      WHITE HOUSE WEB SITE BLOCKS SEARCH ENGINES


ACCESS TO CRS REPORTS (TEMPORARILY?) CURTAILED

Publicly accessible links from congressional web sites to an
internal database of Congressional Research Service (CRS)
reports suddenly went dead last week without explanation. But
they may yet be restored.

For about three years, the Congressional Research Service has
provided online public access to hundreds of selected reports
through a portal like this one:

http://www.house.gov/markgreen/w3ccrs.htm

No longer.

The publicly accessible CRS portals were part of a "pilot
program," explained a congressional staffer in Rep. Green's
office.  "The pilot program has just expired."  Goodbye, CRS
reports.

But fortunately, there's more to it than that.

Members can still opt to provide public access through their
websites to the internal database of selected CRS reports,
explained another staffer from the House Committee on House
Administration.  Or they can provide online access to individual
reports of special interest, as they see fit.  In either case,
they must make new arrangements through the Administration
Committee.

FAS has written to Rep. Mark Green (R-WI) and Rep. Christopher
Shays (R-CT) asking them to restore at least the same level of
access to CRS reports that their web sites have provided for the
past three years.

A selection of recent CRS reports on aspects of national
security policy, including some that were never presented in the
public database, is available on the FAS web site here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/index.html


EMBARRASSED ARMY WEB SITE GOES OFFLINE

The Army has taken one of its popular web sites offline after
the Washington Post reported on a critical account of U.S.
intelligence posted on the site.

The web site of the Center for Army Lessons Learned
(call.army.mil) was promptly disabled following a Post story
about an "unusually blunt" report on the inadequacies of U.S.
military intelligence in Iraq.

"We're doing some maintenance" on the site, an Army spokeswoman
at Fort Leavenworth told Secrecy News initially.  She then
acknowledged that the move was prompted by the Post story on
October 25.

The web site should be back up by the end of the week, she said,
but the report cited in the Post story "will not be available."

However, the report itself, on "Observations from Operations
Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom," from the October 2003 CALL
Newsletter, has been helpfully posted by the Washington Post
here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/03-27.pdf

It was first reported in "Intelligence Problems in Iraq Are
Detailed" by Thomas E. Ricks, Washington Post, October 25:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14278-
2003Oct24.html


NAMES OF DSB MEMBERS TOO SENSITIVE FOR WEB

The Defense Science Board (DSB) is part of a network (one wants
to say "cabal") of interlocking advisory panels that play a
significant but obscure role in the formulation of U.S. national
security policy.

"The Board and its members have considerable influence,"
observed freelance journalist Michael Flynn, who has been
investigating the subject, "and they seem to have a stake in the
policies they advocate."

Who is on the DSB?  It takes some digging to find out.

The Defense Science Board web site includes a link to "Members,"
which used to provide a complete list of the membership.  But
today the link is dead.  See:

http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/

"The information listing DSB Members was deleted from the DSB
web site based on DoD guidance for Web Publishing Security
following the 9/11 terrorist attacks," said a DSB spokesman in
an email message.

He didn't explain how deleting the names of corporate CEOs and
others who advise the government on defense policy was likely to
increase security against terrorism.

But he did courteously provide a copy of the current DSB
membership, available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb072903.pdf

In fact, Michael Flynn pointed out, the names of DSB members,
like those of most other such advisory groups, are public
information and have been posted on the web all along, although
they are rather hard to locate.

See the Federal Advisory Committee Act dababase on Fido.gov (to
get to the DSB listing, click on "explore data" and then on
"Department of Defense"):

http://www.fido.gov/facadatabase/public.asp


WHITE HOUSE WEB SITE BLOCKS SEARCH ENGINES

The White House is blocking search engines from accessing much
of the White House web site, particularly web pages relating to
Iraq.  As a result, these web pages cannot be directly accessed
through external search engines such as google.com.

The White House employs a "robots.txt" file which "disallows"
search engine access to over a thousand specified directories.
See:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/robots.txt

The matter was first noticed and discussed on this web page:

http://www.bway.net/~keith/whrobots/

Say, for example, that you want to find the White House web page
where President Bush made this remarkable statement on October
3:

"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't
attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass
destruction."

You can't get there from Google, because the page is blocked.
But it's here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031003-4.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Oct > Oct 28

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 41

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:42:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:15:55 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 41



Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

       UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 41
October 29, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail:  Masinaigan@aol.com
Webiste: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


PHANTOM PANTHER
TERRORIZES OMAHA

      "When a mountain lion shows up in the middle of a
Midwestern city, it's bound to make news and this was the
case last week when it entered into Omaha (population
390,007)," the largest city in the USA's state of
Nebraska.
      "It was the first confirmed sighting of a mountain
lion (puma in UK--J.T.) in the eastern third of Nebraska,
officials said."
      "The lion was captured just a few blocks from one of
the city's busiest intersections after being pursued by
authorities.  It was hit with a tranquilizer gun and then
shot again by a policeman with a shotgun when the cat
lunged from cover."
      "The (shotgun) pellets were removed from the cat's
hip and thigh and he is expected to survive the encounter
in good shape.  The cat is recuperating at the Henry
Doorly Zoo.  Nebraska Game and Parks Commission spokesmen
say the lion will be released back into the wild, but not
in Nebraska.  Another possibility could be a zoo."
      "The male lion weighed 108 pounds and measured nearly
seven feet (2.1 meters) from its nose to the tip of its
tail, and is two-and-a-half feet (0.7 meters) tall.  The
cat's claws are not worn from walking on concrete, and his
aggressive nature appears to confirm the lion was wild and
not a former pet."
      "So, the question is--where did he come from?"
      "Although mountain lion sightings in Nebraska are
rare, they do occur.  Most, however, are in isolated areas
in the (rural) western part of the state.  However, 11
confirmed sightings have occurred in the eastern part of
the state."
      "The most recent was at the edge of the small
community of St. Paul (population 2,218) in Howard County,
some 200 miles (320 kilometers) from Omaha.  That was
November 28, 2000, and the animal was shot by police as it
loitered around a school.  On December 1, 2001, a hunter
reported sighting a lion in Brown County."
      "Mountain lion attacks are rare, but they do occur.
No attacks have been reported in Nebraska, Iowa or South
Dakota."
      "A large male mountain lion was struck by a car near
Harlan (population 5,282) in Shelby County (Iowa) in 2001.
This confirmed that the cats were in Iowa.  Sightings and
tracks have been reported, mostly in the southern third
and northern third of the state."  (See the Sioux City,
Iowa Journal for October 5, 2003, "Mountain lion shows up
in Iowa."  Many thanks to UFO Roundup's phantom panther
expert, Robert Fischer, for this newspaper article.)


NO LETUP IN REPORTS OF
UK PHANTOM PANTHERS

      Alien big cats (phantom panthers in the USA--J.T.)
continued to be sighted last week all over the United
Kingdom.
      "A walker (hiker in the USA--J.T.) has told of how
shocked he was after encountering the 'Beast of Bucks,' a
large predatory cat thought to be a panther."
      "Ernie Carey, from Ickenham, near Uxbridge, had been
driving for 30 minutes in Cookham (Buckinghamshire) with
his wife Barbara when he sighted the animal."
      "Mr. Carey said: 'The animal was jet black and was at
least 2 feet (0.6 meters) high and about 4 feet (1.3
meters) long.  It had a very long black tail and little
ears.  It was large and its paws were like a tiger's.'"
       "He said they were going past a house in Cookham
when the animal went past" about 10 to 20 yards (9 to 18
meters) away.
      "Mr. Carey said: 'It just strolled right in front and
crossed the road.  Barbara was driving the car.  I was
just looking out the window in front of us.  I was shocked
for a split second.  The car window was down so I shut it
quickly.  I didn't want it to get into the car.  I didn't
expect that.  I wish I had my camera handy.'"
      "'It was definitely not a cat.  We've never observed
anything like that.  It wasn't doing anybody any harm.  It
was like a cat walking across the road.  It was so huge.
We both saw it, so it wasn't a case of mistaken identity.
But we were still completely surprised to see such a
thing.'"
      "Danny Bamping, founder of the British Big Cats
Society, said sightings are becoming more frequent.  He
said: 'These sightings are becoming more and more common
in Britain, and last week we had 15 sightings throughout
the country.'"
      Elsewhere in UK, "mystery big cat sightings have
shocked people across Suffolk."
      "Two separate incidents have been reported recently
in Eyke and Great Livermere, where big black cats have
been reported prowling."
      "June Fooks of Eyck, near Woodbridge, saw a black
feline last weekend when she went out to fetch something
from her car."
      "She claims that she saw a cat which was bigger than
her pet Labrador (retriever dog) prowling in her garden."
      "She said: 'I looked up and I saw it standing about
100 yards (90 meters) away from me.'"
      "'It all happened in a matter of seconds, but I got a
really good look at it.  The sun was then setting, and it
was shining right on it.'"
      "'It had a really shiny coat and a big tail.  It saw
me and then slinked off into the hedge.'"
      "Mrs. Fooks said that after talking to several people
about the cat, they admitted they had seen it, too."
      "Her neighbour, Anne Downing, remembers seeing one
like it about 18 months ago in Rendlesham Forest."
(Editor's Note:  Rendlesham Forest was the site of a UFO
landing back in 1980.)
      "She said: 'I was coming along a pathway with my
daughter and saw this black animal in the distance. It was
almost in a pouncing position and, when we got too near,
it simply fled into the bush.'"
      "Mike Jennings of Kelsale said he saw a similar cat
while out shooting in Great Livermere at the weekend."
      "He said: 'It was a good distance away from me, but I
was on high ground so I had a good view.  It was about 100
yards (90 meters) across the field, looked back and then
went through a hedge.  I'm out in the country a great
deal, and I've never seen anything like it before.  It was
dark and catlike, about the size of an Alsatian (dog),
maybe a bit bigger.'"
      "The British Big Cat Society received reports of 24
sightings in Suffolk last year (2002) whilst 113 sightings
were listed in Norfolk and 129 in Essex."
      Meanwhile, In Lincolnshire, "after years of false
leads, exaggerated stories and made-up claims, it's
official--a forensic enquiry at a government-accredited
laboratory has confirmed for the first time that at least
one big cat is living in Britain."
      "A study of hairs taken from a site in Lincolnshire
has revealed they belong to an animal from the leopard
family."
      The hairs were found in Heningsby, Lincs. at a
caravan (trailer in the USA--J.T.) belonging to Sandy and
Julie Richardson.  "In July this year (2003) Sandy had
returned to the caravan at the end of his garden to get a
spare spring for his lawnmower."
      "He said: 'I was looking along the shelves when I
felt something staring at me.  I turned around, and this
big cat was right behind me.  Its eyes were like orange
street lights.'"
      "The beast opened its mouth in a soundless snarl: 'I
could see its big brown teeth and it started to move
towards me, so I backed out the door and managed to shut
it.'"  (See the UK newspapers Bucks Free Press for October
10, 2003; the Ipswich Evening Star for October 16, 2003,
"Big cat roams Suffolk;" and the Louth Leader for October
15, 2003, "A big cat is roaming the Wolds."  Again, many
thanks to Robert Fischer for these newspaper articles.)


CHUPACABRA STRIKES NEAR
COQUIMBO, CHILE

      "A new attack by the mythic predator," Chupacabra,
"took place yesterday," Saturday, October 18, 2003, at Pan
de Azucar, near Coquimbo, a port city 300 kilometers (180
miles) north of Santiago de Chile.
      The attack took place "on the property of Carlos
Errazuriz of Hacienda Venus.  Reinforcing the fear that is
already felt by local residents since the first (animal)
deaths occurred (Wednesday) October 15 (2003), the fact is
that the landowner was faced with the deaths of 15 of his
canaries through exsanguination (the birds' bodies had
been drained of blood--J.T.)."
      "The birds were not eaten."
      "Before the startled eyes of the dwellers, who did
not hear any noises during the night, the unknown entity
opened the mesh screen of the birdcage to subsequently get
in and slay all of the canaries, which were found dead the
following morning and strewn all over the yard, showing
the same strange (puncture) wounds which supposedly appear
on the Chupacabra's victims."
      "Errazuriz dismissed the possibility that a dog or
another animal--such as a fox--could be considered, since
considerable strength would be spent to open the gate and,
furthermore, none of the birds was devoured or even
bitten."
      "'It's as if only their blood was sucked,' he said,
looking at one of the prints left by the mysterious
assailant."
      "Due to the large size and shape, they do not belong
to any known animal."
      "The first time that a Chupacabra attack became known
in this region was in May 2003, when 40 mutilated chickens
were found in Salamanca."  (See the Chilean newspaper El
Dia for October 19, 2003, "New animal attacks in Coquimbo
reinforce Chupacabra hypothesis."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales y Liliana Nunez Orellana para esto articulo de
diario.)


UFOs REPORTED IN OHIO

      On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 8:45 p.m., Stuart
Lindner was at his home in Hamilton, Ohio (population
60,692) when "walking past a window (facing north--S.L.) I
spotted an unusual object."
      "The object, Lindner said, was situated in the sky
over the Hamilton High School and it was described as a
multi-colored 'upside down diamond,'" according to Ohio
ufologist Kenny Young.  The UFO was "rotating in place
very slowly."
      "Lindner estimated that the object was 45 degrees
above the horizon and at a possible elevation of 25,000
feet (7,500 meters), situated from his perspective
'directly over the high school.'"
      Lindner "said that there were a few lights on the
object, but, for the most part, it was 'luminous.'  The
witness described a multi-colored 'self-emanating glow,'
which the object seemed to radiate, making the shape of
the object visible against a dark sky."
      "Lindner said the diamond-shaped object had changed
color from red, green, blue to white, and the lights were
rotating, not flashing.  He estimated that the object was"
0.25 miles (400 meters) long but said that at arm's
length, the object was as big as his pinky fingernail."
      On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 11 p.m., Mike
Horton was outdoors in New Boston, Ohio "Mars watching
about a mile north of the Ohio River" when he "saw a large
object traveling east to west."
      Horton described the UFO as "a black triangle
seemingly gliding across the sky.  Flashing lights in the
rear.  Had to be either close or large, as it obscured a
portion of the sky.  Not at all like a passenger aircraft
that are mere points of light.  As I recall, it was a
little larger than it was wide," flying at an estimated
altitude of 2,000 feet (600 meters) at 200 miles per hour
(320 kilometers per hour).
      Hamilton is on Ohio Route 27 approximately 25 miles
(40 kilometers) north of Cincinnati.  New Boston is on
Route 62 in Scioto County, about 120 miles (192
kilometers) east of Cincinnati.  (Many thanks to Kenny
Young for the Hamilton report.  New Boston was an Email
Form Report.)


UFOs SIGHTED TWICE
LAST WEEK IN UK

      On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 8 p.m., Ben J.
reported, "My friend and I were walking his dogs in a farm
field" in Chilcompton, Bath, Somerset, UK when "my friend
saw something and pointed it out.  It looked like a
shooting star except it was rising vertically at great
speed."
      "As we followed its progress, it began moving
horizontally extremely quickly, and I heard a loud roaring
sound.  The white light turned red (possibly rear lights--
B.J.) and the object disappeared.  We could still hear the
rumbling for a good ten minutes after the object had
disappeared.  The rumbling stopped and, two minutes later,
there was a flash that illuminated the northern sky.  It
was like lightning, but it was not accompanied by thunder.
Approximately 15,000 feet (4,500 meters) high and going
faster than any plane."
      On Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 9:30 p.m., George
Jones reported, "A UFO hovered over my home" in Walsall
Wood, Brownhills, West Midlands, UK "for approximately 60
seconds.  It was approximately 40 feet (12 meters) away.
It was a ring of white lights with a red flashing light on
top.  The white lights blacked out, leaving only the red
one.  Then, a second later, it had shot off to the other
side of Birmingham.  There was no sound from the UFO, and
the lights were very bright.  So bright it was like
daylight just below the craft."  (Email Form Reports)


TWO LUMINOUS UFOs
SIGHTED IN SWEDEN

      On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 9:09 p.m., Mattias
Cavero and Tina Hokansson were outdoors at their home in
Alingsas, a town 40 kilometers (25 miles) north of
Goteborg in southern Sweden, they reported, "when we
observed two lights approaching from the east in total
silence.  Two lights orange in colour and running two
fingers apart."
      "The lights were running in a parallel pattern and,
when they had gotten a little more than halfway" across
the sky, "they doubled the distance between them, only for
a split second, just to return to their original line of
travel."
      "At first I thought, It's an airliner," Tina
reported, "But the speed and absence of sound, plus the
sudden increase of distance between the lights, gave me
some serious doubts.  The whole sighting lasted for about
four to five seconds.  Clear sky, 300 meters (1,000 feet)
up, travelling at 100 kilometers per hour (60 miles per
hour)."  (Email Form Report)


THREE WHITE UFOs SEEN
IN AURORA, MISSOURI

      On Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 5:25 p.m., Benjamin
Sperandio was at work in Aurora, Missouri (population
7,014), a town on Highway 60 about 20 miles (32
kilometers) southwest of Springfield, when he spotted
strange lights on the northern horizon.
      "I was working that Saturday and happened to have a
chore to do outside," Ben reported, "As I was working, I
happened to look up at the sky, facing north.  What
immediately caught my attention were three distant objects
that appeared as small as to be little more than points of
light.  Shape was not very discernible.  Two of them were
bright white and the third was slightly dimmer and had a
tone or hue to it, possibly blue.  All three seemed to
have a luminescence or faint glow like a neon light."
      "The objects were hovering in the air over downtown
Aurora, yet dancing around each other almost happily in a
seemingly erratic pattern.  Sometimes they closely
approached each other and sometimes they drifted apart.  A
couple of times, they seemed to join together in a classic
triangle formation for a brief moment."
      "As the minutes passed, the group ever so slowly
drifted northeast, almost as if caught in a very light
breeze.  Then, after about two to three minutes, I also
noticed a fourth object a little to the west of the group.
The fourth object, unlike the other three, was very dark
(possibly black--B.S.)  It hovered about in a similar
erratic fashion."
      "Of course, I was pretty stunned.  These objects held
my attention.  As the minutes ticked by, I wondered if
they could be what I thought they might be.  While
observing them, I was completely by myself."
      "About five minutes had passed since I first spotted
them, and the objects were very, very distant.  I could
barely make them out any more.  The colored object faded
away first and then the black one.  I could still largely
make out the two bright spots for a while longer.  But
then, I turned my head to check if anybody was nearby,
and, when I turned back, I could no longer see them."
      "My entire observation lasted between 5:25 and 5:30
p.m.  As for my vision, I just got my eyes checked about
three weeks ago.  In fact, my new glasses came in, and I
started using them the week before.  If I had used my old
glasses, I would have missed these objects."  (Email Form
Report)


POLICE SPOT A UFO IN
NORTH CAROLINA

      "It flashed across the sky like a shooting star,
trailing a tail of green streaks."
      "But what Durham, N.C. police Lt. Morris Taylor saw
Monday night," October 20, 2003, "on Erwin Road was
different from any shooting star he had seen before."
      "'It was pretty wild looking,' Taylor said of the
unidentified flying object."
      "Durham police dispatchers began receiving calls
about an unidentified flying object at around 8:45 p.m.
Monday, and one resident even flagged down a passing
police cruiser to report the object.  According to
dispatchers, about six reports were received in all."
      "Durham County Sheriff's Deputy Brad O'Briant said he
was checking property on U.S. 70 when he saw the flying
object in the direction of Interstate (Highway) 40."
      "O'Briant said the object was moving too fast to
discern its color, but its tail had a distinctive
greenish-white hue to it, he said."
      "'It just went across the sky and disappeared as it
got toward the horizon area,' he said, 'It was a lot
longer than a shooting star would be.  It was almost like
a firework going to the ground or something.'"
      "Air traffic controllers at Raleigh-Durham
International Airport said they hadn't seen the object,
but several pilots reported catching glimpses of it Monday
night."
      "Durham dispatchers said they received reports of
sightings on South Miami Road and Page Road, Duke Forest,
and as far south as the Little River area."
      "'I thought it looked pretty neat,' Taylor said, 'I
had never seen a shooting star like that before.'"
      "Taylor said the object was 'humungous' compared to a
shooting star."  (See the Herald-Sun of North Carolina for
October 21, 2003, "Six report UFO in Durham skies."  Many
thanks to Jim Hickman for this newspaper article.)


SECOND MYSTERY BOOM
RATTLES RHODE ISLAND

      "Emergency officials were inundated with calls
Thursday morning," October 23, 2003, "from people" in
Rhode Island "who said they had felt an earthquake"
      "But the rumble was produced by a sonic boom from a
military fighter plane, perhaps from Vermont."
      "Safety officials at T.F. Green Airport in Warwick,
R.I. (population 85,808) and the Hope Valley barracks of
the Rhode Island State Police confirmed Thursday that the
loud noise and tremors felt at 10:15 a.m. were the product
of a sonic boom.  The confirmation came after scientists
at the Weston Observatory of Boston College and the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.), which
monitors seismic activity in New England, ruled out the
possibility of an earthquake."
      "Mark Simmons of Simmons Aviation Services at the
Westerly, R.I. airport, said many pilots were discussing
the event on Thursday.  He and other pilots said it was
highly unlikely that a sonic boom could be heard or felt
if it occurred in Vermont.  But he said that Thursday's
strong wind could have carried the boom a great distance."
      WJAR-TV Channel 10 in Providence, R.I. reported
Thursday night that the boom "was loudest in the western
end of Coventry (population 8,600)," an area known as
Greene village just east of the Connecticut state line.
(See the New London, Conn. Day for October 24, 2003,
"Mystery rumble felt throughout New England was sonic
boom."  Many thanks to Daniel Wilson and Mary Lou Jones-
Drown for this news report.)
(Editor's Note:  This is the second boom this month in the
Greene section of Coventry, R.I.  In the Eighteenth
Century, the village was called Coffin's Corner, and, in
1837, it was the birthplace of occultist Whipple Van Buren
Phillips, the grandfather of H.P. Lovecraft.  For more on
the first mystery boom, see UFO Roundup, volume 8, number
39 for October 15, 2003, "Mysterious sky boom rocks Rhode
Island," page 5.)


OLDEST VERTEBRATE
FOUND IN AUSTRALIA

      "A tadpole-shaped fossil, believed to be the oldest
vertebrate ever found, has been uncovered by a farmer in a
rugged range of hills in southern Australia, a museum
paleontologist said Wednesday," October 22, 2003.
      "The fossil, of a 26-inch (65-centimeter) fishlike
animal, is believed to be at least 560 million years old--
30 million years older than the previous record."
(Editor's Note: 560 million years ago was the end of the
Precambrian Period, during which vertebrates were believed
not to exist.  Another notion bites the dust!)
      "The latest fossil was discovered in sandstone in the
Flinders Range in South Australia state, an area well
known for its abundance of fossils."
      "'The fantastic thing about this specimen is that
it's at least 30 million years older than anything else
that could be even vaguely related to vertebrates,' said
paleontologist Jim Gehling."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-
Tribune for October 23, 2003, "Museum claims oldest
vertebrate," page 2.)


READER FEEDBACK:

ENIGMATIC "RED SPHERE" WAS
ALSO SEEN IN OREGON

      Concerning last week's report of the strange little
floating red sphere in Yellowstone National Park (see UFO
Roundup, volume 8, number 40, "An unusual phenomenon in
Yellowstone Park," page 6), ufologist Bruce Maccabee
writes, "I would like to point out to your readers that a
'red sphere,' possibly like the one reported here, was
photographed in Florence, Oregon September 1, 2001.  See
'Oregon Red Sphere' at
http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html ."

ON THEOSOPHY

      Concerning last week's feature story on Yuliana
Glinka (See UFO Roundup, volume 8, number 40, for October
22, 2003, "1884: One Hot Number," page 6), Ramon Andres
writes, "Those who study Theosophy come to the highest
understanding when they learn that it's all smoke and
mirrors, being directed by a little man behind the
curtain."
      "Isn't the whole universe following a similar scenario?"


 From the UFO Files...

1908: UFO FLIES OVER
           HANCOCK, MASS.

      In his book New Lands, Charles Fort wrote, "It is
said that 'mysterious bright lights,' believed to have
come from a balloon, had been reported from many places in
New England.  The week before, persons at Ware
(Massachusetts) had said that they had seen an illuminated
balloon passing over the town, early in the morning.
During the summer (of 1908), such reports had come from
Bristol, Conn., and later from Pittsfield, Mass. and from
White River Junction," Vermont.
      So much for the mention made by "the Father of
Ufology."  Now, let's dive into the juicy details of the
strange case of the Pittsfield UFO.
      "When a clear sky dawned on Wednesday, October 21
(1908)," Luke J. Minihan, president of the Pittsfield,
Mass. Aero Club, "gave the crew of (the balloon)
Pittsfield, the Heart of the Berkshires, the go-ahead for
an ascent.  Daredevil aeronaut William Van Sleet arrived
at the Aero Park at 8 a.m. and had breakfast with his co-
pilot, Dr. Sydney S. Stowell.  Meanwhile, crew chief
Edward J. Nugent supervised the inflation of the
Pittsfield's gas bag.  Minor problems delayed the launch
by about an hour, but at 11 a.m. Van Sleet and Stowell
were ready to fly."
      "Shortly after the launch, Minihan and four club
members set out for Troy, N.Y. in a borrowed automobile.
They hoped to meet Van Sleet and Dr. Stowell when they
arrived."
      "The flight, however, got off to a poor start. Van
Sleet's log tells how the balloon rose to a height of 500
feet (150 meters) and then drifted slowly across the city.
Just before noon, the wind picked up and pushed the
Pittsfield in a westerly direction.  At precisely 1:43
p.m., the balloon touched down in Cohoes, N.Y., 45 miles
(72 kilometers) northwest of Pittsfield."
      "Meanwhile, the Minihan party had an unusual
encounter deep in the heavily wooded Berkshires," the
mountains of western Massachusetts.
      According to the Berkshire Evening Eagle, "Luke J.
Minihan, president of the Aero Club of Pittsfield...had
arranged for an automobile trip to Troy (N.Y.) with his
brother...(and) shortly after the balloon was released he
started on his journey."
      "As the automobile wended its way through Shaker
Village (Mass., 4 miles or 6 kilometers west of
Pittsfield--J.T.), the occupants of the car could see the
balloon as it passed to the south of Potier Mountain."
      "Mr. Minihan continued on over the Lebanon Mountain
and was mildly surprised as he rode down the western side
of the mountain that the ballon was then over Hancock,"
Mass.
      "At this moment, remember, Van Sleet's balloon was
still becalmed over downtown Pittsfield.  The Minihan
party mistook the UFO for their balloon and began chasing
it."
      The Eagle reported, "The (mystery) balloon flew to
the north.  To the occupants of the car it looked as if
the balloon passed from the sight of the automobile, but
as the latter reached Brown's Hotel near Crooked Lake in
Sand Lake, N.Y., the airship could again be seen a short
distance to the north.  The balloon was traveling low at
the time."
      "Heading north on New York Route 66, the Minihan
party lost sight of the object for about 30 minutes.  But
then, as they reached the outskirts of Troy, they
encountered the genuine Van Sleet balloon."
      Even the Eagle noticed the differences between this
balloon and the one the Minihan party had seen earlier:
"When Mr. Minihan and his party reached Troy, the balloon
was then almost directly overhead.  It soon took a more
northerly direction, going toward Cohoes.  When the
Pittsfield party was going through River Street in Troy,
the ballon appeared to go to a much greater height than it
had been traveling."
      But what happened to the other "balloon?"
      "An Associated Press dispatch from Albany gives us a
clue to its whereabouts after its departure from Sand
Lake," N.Y.
      "The balloon Pittsfield, the Heart of the Berkshires
passed here (Albany, N.Y.) about 1 p.m. and at 2 p.m. was
at Schenectady apparently traveling fast."
      "Van Sleet and Dr. Stowell landed in Cohoes at
precisely 1:43 p.m.  Seventeen minutes later, an aerial
object was seen passing over Schenectady, N.Y., 22 miles
(35 kilometers) to the west."
      "Although unaware of it at the time, the Minihan
party had just seen the first of the October UFOs of
1908."  (See The Complete Books of Charles Fort, Dover
Publications Inc., New York, N.Y., 1974, page 507; and
Fortean Studies Vol. 3 for 1996, "Monkey Business: The New
England UFO Flap of 1908" by Joseph Trainor, page 266.
See also the Berkshire Evening Eagle for October 21, 1908,
"Followed by Automobile," pages 1 and 2 and the Brockton,
Mass. Times for October 21, 1908, "Balloon Passes Troy,"
page 1.)

      Ang Lee's film Hulk is now out on DVD and home video.
If you missed it last summer, now's the time to have a
look at this soon-to-be sci-fi classic.  Sam Elliott
turned in a bravo performance as General T.E.
"Thunderbolt" Ross.  After seeing this movie, I was just
glad that Gen. Ross was out in the Nevada desert and not
leading the helicopter raid on Professor Xavier's school
in Salem Center, N.Y.  I can just see T-Bolt flying around
in his Blackhawk, peering out the window and saying, "Oh,
look!  There's Croton-on-Hudson.  Turn it into a parking
lot."

      And we'll be back next week with more UFO, Fortean
and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought
to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See
you next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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the bulletin in error, please write to:

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   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 28

                  Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:39:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:30:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Ledger


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:11:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:23:50 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

><snip>

>>As for the Keckberg incident, what happened there is still an
>>open question. Has anyone explored the possibility that the
>>object was of American manufacture and possibly contained a
>>nuclear power source or some other sensitive instrumentation or
>>material? Could it, on December 9, 1965, have possibly been a
>>piece of some "black" technology, a precursor of the Soviets
>>COSMOS-954 (a USSR satellite with a nuclear reactor) crash in
>>the North West Territories in Canada on January 24, 1978?

>As noted in the press packet material made available by the Sci
>Fi Channel,

>see:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/oct/m25-007.shtml

>Chief Scientist Nicholas L. Johnson, who is with the Orbital
>Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center, stated that after
>examining orbital information for the time period in question,
>the "data shows that no man-made object from any country entered
>our atmosphere and landed in Pennsylvania on the afternoon of
>December 9. Cosmos 96 was the only catalogued object that came
>down at all that day. He says that anything not catalogued would
>have been so small that it would not have survived reentry. I
>cannot absolutely confirm that it was not some completely
>unreported event, but the chances of that are virtually nil,
>said Johnson. You can't launch something without somebody seeing
>it. By 1965 the US and Soviets were both reporting their
>launches."

>This may not eliminate the possibility of some secret device
>that came down, but Johnson seems fairly confident in his
>assessment, and this is coming from someone who is not connected
>to the field and is merely examining the data that's available.
>There certainly could be a mundane explanation for the Kecksburg
>event, but the suggestion that it was Cosmos 96 appears to be
>eliminated at this point.


Hi Steve,

You've mis-read me. I'm not suggesting COSMOS 96 - or any Soviet
space hardware. I'm suggest American hardware. Perhaps it was
something of a sensitive nature - or even an embarassing
incident involving a mis-fired rocket out of, say for example,
Wallops Island, Virginia.

Jim Oberg says his information was that it was shaped more like
a rocket than the acorn shape being bandied about.


Best,

Don Ledger








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 28

                Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:56:18 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:17:17 -0500
Subject: Re:  FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Pope


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:15:04 -0000
>Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:21:03 -0700
>>Subject: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 18-21

>>Victim Mentality In Abductees: An Unacceptable Concept.
>>An Essay by Ann Druffel, (California), FSR Consultant

>>[This article was first published in the MUFON UFO JOURNAL for
>>May 2000, and has been revised slightly by the author for the
>>overseas issue in FSR - Editor FSR.]

>>In August 1998 my most recent book, HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF
>>AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION, was published by Three Rivers >Press, a
>>"How To" division of Random House, followed closely by a U.K.
>>edition in November 1998 from Piatkus Publishers Limited.

><snip>

>>During a magic 2.5 hours with Art Bell on COAST TO COAST, I
>>fielded intelligent questions from numerous listeners and will
>>presently appear on DREAMLAND with Whitley Strieber. All this
>>demonstrates the interest in the subject of "resisters" who
>>successfully tell the abduction phenomenon, whatever it is, to
>>go away and quit bothering them.

>>Many abduction researchers in various countries have sent
>>letters of agreement and encouragement, and my data base of
>>"resisters" grows rapidly as many abductees continue to share
>>their experiences, containing approximately 100 cases to date.
>>Yet a few top abduction researchers continue to ignore the new
>>concept and message in the book, namely, that stout-hearted
>>witnesses and abductees can and do fend off so-called "UFO
>>aliens", and even permanently rid themselves of the visitations.

>>In conversation at the annual Laramie Conference last year with
>>a well-known author and abduction researcher, he told me that he
>>came across "resisters" in his case load but did not elaborate
>>how he handled this information. I know for a fact that other
>>researchers come across resisters, but these cases somehow never
>>make it into print. Do these particular researchers dismiss
>>"resisters" because they don't fit in with their own hypotheses?
>>If so, I feel that this attitude is unscientific. In science,
>>don't we work with all data that comes to us from rational,
>>honest sources and not try to "screen out" what is unacceptable
>>to us?

>>Curious as to why certain researchers have been ignoring the new
>>concept and message in HOW TO DEFEND YOURSELF >>
>>AGAINST ALIEN ABDUCTION, I recently sent friendly letters,
>>copies of the book
>>and related bio/resume/bibliographical material to four of those
>>who had been so silent, with a simple request for feedback and
>>input. None of the four responded. Their silence was so
>>deafening that it allowed valuable insight to seep into my brain
>>- information which seems so startling that I feel impelled to
>>share it with you. Namely: Certain factors in the UFO field
>>apparently *do not want* instances of successful resistance to
>>come out. If they ignore the book and its new concept, will they
>>perhaps not be tempted to try to advise their own traumatized
>>abductees that resistance may be possible?

>>Perhaps they do not believe that resistance works and so don't
>>want abductees to even consider it for fear they will "fail" and
>>emerge doubly traumatized? Or do they perhaps sincerely believe
>>that experiencers have *no right* to resist? What other reasons
>>would prevent researchers from learning vital, new information
>>about a phenomenon on which they have laboured for decades?

>>All four "silent" researchers I refer to are Americans working
>>mainly with American abductees. I do not know if any researchers
>>in the U.K. share these thoughts, but practically nothing has
>>been written in overseas journals, either, about successful
>>resistance. Do researchers truly feel that the abduction
>>phenomenon is so overpowering that it is able to overthrow the
>>principles of freedom on which democracies and republics
>>worldwide were founded - the same principles of freedom from
>>fear and oppression which guide our everyday lives?

>I have read Ann Druffel's interesting book, and it seems that
>the techniques she describes can apparently be effective
>regardless of the beliefs of the abductee as to the true nature
>of the experience (real encounters with ETs, "interdimensional"
>beings, unusual dreams, illusions, or whatever). I share her
>puzzlement as to why certain prominent abduction researchers
>have apparently decided to ignore her work. For example, I could
>find no mention of it on Budd Hopkins's "Intruders Foundation"
>site or on David Jacobs's site.

>Could it be that her resistance techniques, if applied
>enthusiastically, and given the widest publicity might
>drastically reduce the number of abductees, thus forcing certain
>persons to look for something else to do?

Terry, John and List,

I too have read Ann Druffel's book, and agree that it's very
interesting. I can't speak for any other researchers, but I
certainly haven't ignored Ann's work. I read her book shortly
after it came out, and gave it a brief but favourable review in
a monthly column I write for Hot Gossip UK, an internet
magazine. I may also have reviewed it for a number of UFO
magazines I was writing for at the time. I can't remember. The
only thing I didn't like about the book was the title, which I
thought was trashy and lightweight. I suspect this may have put
some people off, and explain why the book didn't find favour
with other abduction researchers. That was a shame, because
there are some very interesting ideas in the book. It's
certainly a title I recommend to abductees.

I don't subscribe to the idea of a sinister conspiracy whereby
leading abduction researchers ignore Ann's book, fearful their
supply of cases will dry up. I think what's going on is rather
more simple than that, and it involves workload. Abduction
researchers have jobs and families like everyone else. Then they
have an ever increasing mass of books and articles to read, to
stay up with current thinking. And then there's the small matter
of handling the abduction cases themselves, against a background
of queries from ufologists, asking if we're recording data on
blood groups, taking part in transcription projects, making
available databases of symbols seen by abductees, aware of the
latest theories on sexuality, etc.

Read Ann Druffel's book How To Defend Yourself Against Alien
Abduction and you'll get some interesting theories and
suggestions. But pick up Michelle LaVigne's book The Alien
Abduction Survival Guide and you'll get different theories and
advice. That's ufology.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Oct > Oct 28

                  Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:25:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:25:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel - Aldrich


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:11:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:23:50 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Kecksburg On Sci-Fi Channel

><snip>

>>As for the Keckberg incident, what happened there is still an
>>open question. Has anyone explored the possibility that the
>>object was of American manufacture and possibly contained a
>>nuclear power source or some other sensitive instrumentation or
>>material? Could it, on December 9, 1965, have possibly been a
>>piece of some "black" technology, a precursor of the Soviets
>>COSMOS-954 (a USSR satellite with a nuclear reactor) crash in
>>the North West Territories in Canada on January 24, 1978?

>As noted in the press packet material made available by the Sci
>Fi Channel,

>see:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/oct/m25-007.shtml

>Chief Scientist Nicholas L. Johnson, who is with the Orbital
>Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center, stated that after
>examining orbital information for the time period in question,
>the "data shows that no man-made object from any country entered
>our atmosphere and landed in Pennsylvania on the afternoon of
>December 9. Cosmos 96 was the only catalogued object that came
>down at all that day. He says that anything not catalogued would
>have been so small that it would not have survived reentry. I
>cannot absolutely confirm that it was not some completely
>unreported event, but the chances of that are virtually nil,
>said Johnson. You can't launch something without somebody seeing
>it. By 1965 the US and Soviets were both reporting their
>launches."

>This may not eliminate the possibility of some secret device
>that came down, but Johnson seems fairly confident in his
>assessment, and this is coming from someone who is not connected
>to the field and is merely examining the data that's available.
>There certainly could be a mundane explanation for the Kecksburg
>event, but the suggestion that it was Cosmos 96 appears to be
>eliminated at this point.


Here is the URL for the Dec 9, 1965, fireball meteor posted by an
Australian astrophysicist on PJ-47:

http://cdsads.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1967JRASC..61..184D&db_
key=AST&high=3f9c5add4905976

Please note that the authors think that their data are much
better than most meteor tracings due to the triangulation using
pictures of the meteor train taken at two different locations.

Please note they also discuss the results if their data has a
20% error. (Note this is the same type of conservativitism used
by both Arnold and Nash-Fortenberry when discussing their
reports.)


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135






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                  Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:40:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:34:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project - Hatch


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->.
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:39:00 -0500
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Grand Pyramid Design Project


>Gentle Reader,

>Over the years I've made no secret of the fact that I have a
>strong feeling about the phenomena that this List is dedicated
>to, stretching back to time immemorial. I have, occasionally,
>posted information that indicates evidence of ancient
>involvement.

>There's an intriguing site, out of Toronto, which I'd like to
>draw your attention to, especiallly if you can do the math.....

>The Grand Pyramid Design Project at:

>http://www3.sympatico.ca/mendiplad/

>The following are random quotes:

<snip>

Hello:

Is this a non-subscriber post? EBK usually tags those. I have a
few questions:

My math is OK. Statements like "we see that 1/1000 of a degree
of arc = 42 gpu" .. are scarcely arithmetic. What is lacking is
a definition of "gpu".  I hope that doesn't stand for Grid Polar
Unit or some such.

Would the writer be named or associated with either "mendiplad"
or David J Gullick?

Do the "Mysteries of the Mendips" (see URL above) or the "Grand
Pyramid Design Project" have anything to do with geographical
numerology, or the Eltanin Antenna? Or, is it more closely
related to "Revealing the Holy Grail"?


Just curious

- Larry Hatch







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               Re: Kelly 'Alien Battle' Documentary Underway -

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:27:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:14:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Kelly 'Alien Battle' Documentary Underway -


>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:31:52 -0500
>Subject: Kelly 'Alien Battle' Documentary Underway


>News Article
>Monday, October 27, 2003
>The (Hopkinsville) Kentucky New Era


"Kelly green men documentary filmed this weekend in L.A."

By Michele Carlton

>A documentary film featuring the 1955 invasion of "little green
>men" in the Christian County community of Kelly began filming
>this weekend in the Angeles National Forest just north of Los
>Angeles.

>Barcon Video Productions, based in Glendale, Calif., filmed the
>dramatization of the local legend to include as part of a
>documentary entitled "Monsters of the UFO."

<snip>


Kenny,

Did anyone from this group contact Joe Gouch of Madisonville
Community College about this case? Madisonville, Ky.

I did extensive research about this case back in June, 1989.

I haven't contacted him in a few years, so I can't say for sure
that he still teaches there.

I received considerable information from Mr Gouch. Including
information from the "Civilian Saucer Intelligence Of New York."

A letter was written to:


Prof. J. Allen Hynek,
Astrophysical Observatory
60 Garden St.
Cambridge 38, Mass
Dated July 4, 1956.

The previous April 28, 1956, The "Civilian Saucer Intelligence
of New York, held a public meeting at the Pythian Temple, 135
West 70th St, New York City and the Speaker was:  Frank Edwards.

Frank gave a history of his research and the cases which had
been reported up to that time. Eventually he came to the
"Hopkinsville Case."

Here is a paragraph from his lecture:  "The first is a very
strange thing that happened on August 21st, last year, near
Hopkinsville, Kentucky.  It made headlines in the newspapers out
there, and ofr once it was carried by the press wires --I
suppose just because they thought it was ridiculous.  You may
remember reading the wire story about "little green men" --
actually they weren't green, some rewrite man put that in
because he thought they ought to be green.

-----

Mike








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                      Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:32:13 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:16:18 -0500
Subject: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry


List,

To see a funny "Zippy the Pinhead" comic about Kecksburg's UFO
crash monument, see:

http://www.mactonnies.com/coverup.html

While you're there, take a look at the mug-shot of the "alien."
Apparently this began circulating in 1998, but I saw it for the
first time the other night. Does anyone know if it's been
successfully debunked?

=====\
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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              UFO Photographed Over Westerbork Radio Telescope

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:29:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:29:43 -0500
Subject: UFO Photographed Over Westerbork Radio Telescope



Source: UFO Plaza

http://www.ufoplaza.nl/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1177

[Several images at site]

UFO photographed above Radio Telescope Westerbork

October 28, 2003

Sunday, October 26, a Dutch couple went for a walk in Westerbork
(up north). They also walked on the so-called Milky Way path
along the Westerbork Synthesis Radio Telescope (WSRT).

Around 2:45pm the man took several pictures of the Radio
Telescopes, with an interval of approx. 5 min. He didn't see
anything unusual untill he looked back at the pictures the next
day. On one picture of the first Radio Telescope he noticed a
strange object.

"It can be correlated to the fact, that I was determined to get
a good image of the Radio Telescope, while my camera has some
problems with focussing," he said. "Only when I looked at the
pictures yesterday, I noticed that there was 'something strange'
on it."

A digital camera, Medion SX 410z, was used with 4,1 megapixel.
He used the highest resolution 2272 x 1704. We verified, that
the picture came directly out of the camera.

When you zoom in on the picture, you can see that the object has
a clear structure. I think we can easily rule out the
possibilities, that this object is a bird, plane, satellite or
what so ever.

The WSRT (Westerbork Synthesis Radio Telescope) is an aperture
synthesis interferometer that consists of a linear array of 14
antennas arranged on a 2.7 km East-West line. The WSRT has
contributed considerably to radio astronomical research during
its nearly 30 years of existence. As one of the earliest array
antennas, the WSRT helped to map neutral hydrogen in nearby
galaxies, to study the neutral hydrogen distribution in our
Galaxy, to find and study giant radio galaxies, and more
recently to help identify gamma-ray sources.

The WSRT consists of 14 dish-shaped antennas, each with a
diameter of 25 m. These antennas can be individually directed at
any point on the sky. Ten of the dishes have a fixed location,
while two at the eastern end of the array can be moved on rails.
1.4 km to the east is a second pair of movable dishes on rails.

The WSRT is situated in a park near the village of Westerbork
and near the area that was a transportation camp during World
War II. The array  can be visited and can be reached by a path
from approx. 2 km that starts from the parking place of the
Visitor Center of the camp The Milky Way path leads to the
beginning of the array (and not too far from the Camp's
Memorial). Along the path, a scaled-down version of the solar
system can be seen with and a number of signs with descriptions
of the planets.

The ASTRON Radio Telescope in Westerbork is, after an upgrade
that took 12 years and was recently completed, one of the best
of the world. It has the most sensitive receivers in the world,
together with an extraordinary advanced data processing system,
according to a dutch website. The NASA requested Westerbork some
time ago to search for the missing Mars Polar Lander.

I've read some articles about UFO's seen at military
installations, radar stations etc. Maybe the ET's are also
interested in Radio Telescopes... well we can only speculate...
for now.


(c) 2003 TT-UFOPlaza

Geplaatst op Wednesday 29 October @ 01:02:43 GMT+1 door T.oine_T.








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                Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project - Moderator

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:54:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:54:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project - Moderator





>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:40:49 -0800
>Subject: Re: Grand Pyramid Design Project

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->.
>>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:39:00 -0500
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Grand Pyramid Design Project

>>Gentle Reader,

>>Over the years I've made no secret of the fact that I have a
>>strong feeling about the phenomena that this List is dedicated
>>to, stretching back to time immemorial. I have, occasionally,
>>posted information that indicates evidence of ancient
>>involvement.

>>There's an intriguing site, out of Toronto, which I'd like to
>>draw your attention to, especiallly if you can do the math.....

>>The Grand Pyramid Design Project at:

>>http://www3.sympatico.ca/mendiplad/

>>The following are random quotes:

><snip>

>Hello:

>Is this a non-subscriber post? EBK usually tags those. I have a
>few questions:

Larry,

You surely have been a subscriber long enough to realise that
anything that appears on the List with only a List header
is posted by the moderator?

>My math is OK. Statements like "we see that 1/1000 of a degree
>of arc = 42 gpu" .. are scarcely arithmetic. What is lacking is
>a definition of "gpu".  I hope that doesn't stand for Grid Polar
>Unit or some such.

>Would the writer be named or associated with either "mendiplad"
>or David J Gullick?

David J Gullick is the author of the site in question - _I_ posted
the information to the List.

>Do the "Mysteries of the Mendips" (see URL above) or the "Grand
>Pyramid Design Project" have anything to do with geographical
>numerology, or the Eltanin Antenna? Or, is it more closely
>related to "Revealing the Holy Grail"?

>Just curious

The answers to your questions are at the beginning of Part-1,
para: 1.1.1 and in Part-3 paras: 3.1 and 3.2.2:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/mendiplad/gpdp/gpdp-part-1.html

Perhaps a more careful read at the site would be helpful? And
perhaps a private e-mail to the Webmaster would be more productive
than posts to the List?


ebk









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                       Larry Hatch E-mail May Go Down

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 03:35:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:11:32 -0500
Subject: Larry Hatch E-mail May Go Down


Hello all:


A quick note: I may exceed time limits on my budget dial-up ISP
by the end of October. If so, I will be unable to send or
receive emails until the wee hours of Saturday 01 NOV 2003.

If I suddenly become unresponsive, that's probably why [burp]. I
will answer messages stored in the interim on Saturday or so.

My website (separate ISP) will be unaffected in any case.


Thanks

- Larry







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:41:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:44:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0600
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Well said, Ray. John drives, or imagines he drives, on and on,
>though the tank has long since been empty, if it ever had any
>gas in it to start with. He's going nowhere, all the while
>demanding - with ever greater and more desperate urgency - that
>we go there with him.

The only desperation around here, Jerry, is your desperation in
trying to avoid explaining why, after fifty years of one of the
most publicised UFO cases ever, none of the other 45 (or 147)
alleged witnesses have ever turned up.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:23:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:46:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:23:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:06:33 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>All of whom were friends in the same underwater photography
>>club.

>John Rimmer has never provided one stitch of even prima facie
>evidence that being in the same underwater photography club has
>any bearing upon the quality of their testimony as witnesses, or
>upon the integrity of same.

How this whole thing started, a long, long time ago, was my
challenge to the claim that the Trindade case was one of the
best-witnessed UFO cases in history. Despite the statement by
Jerome Clark that there were a remarkably precise 48 witness to
the events, and the claim by the Lorenzens that there were 150,
a careful reading of all the documenation available to me in
various books and Internet sources only revealed the names of
two people who made direct statements that they had seen the
UFO, besides the photographer Barauna, himself.

In normal circumstances, two independent witnesses to confirm a
UFO photograph would be quite impressive. But it turns out that
these two people were not as independent as one might hope, both
being members of the same underwater photography group as
Barauna.

One does not have to assume deliberate deceit, in fact the
report of one of the other witness's is quite equivocal about
what he actually saw, and it is clear that there was a great
deal of confusion, perhaps instigated by Barauna himself. It is
possible, being friends (pace, Jerry) of Barauna's they would be
unwilling to contradict him if they themselves were not totally
certain of what actually happened.

>Put up evidence for that, or hush the baseless speculation, Mr.
>Rimmer.

Now I quite agree that this is not the same thing as proving
they were directly involved in any possible hoax by Barauna, but
it does severely compromise their independence as witnesses.

It is perhaps worth noting that when questioned by the Brazilian
authorities, Barauna stated: "I am an able photographer,
specialized in trick photography"

>Unsubstantiated suspicions and innuendo have no value in
>objective inquiry.

But they seem to take up plenty of space in this forum! Of
course, when these unsubstantiated suspicions tend to promote
the idea of an unsolvable UFO mystery they provoke little or no
protest.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                         Re: Mind Control? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:52:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:49:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - Rimmer


>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>>To: by way of UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:49:38 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Mind Control?

>>Apologies to Joe McGonagle and anyone else who would like an
>>ongoing dialogue concerning alternate theories for mind control.

This URL might be useful to anyone wanting to avoid the problems
of Mind Control:

http://www.stopabductions.com/main

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                                  Cosmos 96

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:7:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:02:03 -0500
Subject: Cosmos 96


NSSDC Master Catalog: Spacecraft

Cosmos 96
NSSDC ID:1965-094A

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1965-094A


Re: Original Documentary Special Uncovers Startling Scientific
Evidence About Possible UFO Cover-up in Kecksburg, Pennsylvania

http://www.edmitchellapollo14.com/wwwboard/messages/381.html


Re: Historical File - Kecksburg 'UFO Crash'

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1996/dec/m14-047.shtml


Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 00:55:00 BST
From: James Easton
Subject: Kecksburg Incident

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/ufo/to-be-merged/kecksburg2


Allan Boyle  COSMIC LOG:    Oct. 21, 2003 / 7:40 p.m. ET
       The truth about UFO publicity

http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp


VENUS PROBES: The overview of the Russian launches toward Venus

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/spacecraft_planetary_venus.html

Encyclopedia Astronautica: 1965, Quarter 4

http://www.astronautix.com/chrono/19654.htm#486

Encyclopedia Astronautica:  Verena 3MV4

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/vena3mv4.htm




Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:55:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:52:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:41:41 +0000
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>Well said, Ray. John drives, or imagines he drives, on and on,
>>though the tank has long since been empty, if it ever had any
>>gas in it to start with. He's going nowhere, all the while
>>demanding - with ever greater and more desperate urgency - that
>>we go there with him.

>The only desperation around here, Jerry, is your desperation in
>trying to avoid explaining why, after fifty years of one of the
>most publicised UFO cases ever, none of the other 45 (or 147)
>alleged witnesses have ever turned up.

Wrong as usual, John. The desperation is entirely yours. Why,
after 50 years of one of the most publicized UFO cases ever,
_not_one_ negative witness - of whom, as I have said over and
over again, there would be no shortage if they existed - has
ever been located, stepped forward, or otherwise come to our
attention? Could it be that such negative witnesses don't exist,
and that in your desperation you have to keep changing the
subject? If the case were as you want us to believe it was, it
would have been long ago disproved conclusively and we wouldn't
be having this pointless exchange. If the Trindade case is a
hoax - as so far precisely zero evidence indicates it is - it
is, clearly, not the sort of hoax you claim to believe it is.

Give it a rest. This is getting boring.


Jerry Clark







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                Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:25:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:19:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Groff


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:32:13 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry

>List,

>To see a funny "Zippy the Pinhead" comic about Kecksburg's UFO
>crash monument, see:

>http://www.mactonnies.com/coverup.html

LOL. Good ol' Zippy!

>While you're there, take a look at the mug-shot of the "alien."
>Apparently this began circulating in 1998, but I saw it for the
>first time the other night. Does anyone know if it's been
>successfully debunked?

That's no alien. That's me from last New Years!

Isn't this a video grab from the supposed "Alien Interrogation"
at Area 51?


Terry







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                          Re: Venus vs Mars - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:35:36 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:24:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Venus vs Mars - Boone


Can't figure out why our attention is more on Mars than Venus.
 After all, Venus is our 'sister' planet. Almost the same size,
decent distance from the Sun.

It's atmospheric composition and pressure are a challenge but
I'm sure we could find some microbe, plant to drop into the
atmosphere that'll take hold and handle it.

We've had bigger challenges to conquer like finding that last
'Spongebob Squarepants' doll during the Christmas rush so to me
terraforming Venus seems like a cakewalk.


Best,

Greg






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                          Secrecy News -- 10/29/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:06:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:29:54 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/29/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 94
October 29, 2003


**      1982 CONVICTION OF CIA'S EDWIN WILSON OVERTURNED
**      BUSH ON THE PRESIDENT'S DAILY BRIEF
**      SENATORS ON THE MISSING "28 PAGES"
**      CRS ON THE BOEING 767 TANKER LEASE DEAL
**      ROY JONKERS, RIP
**      UPDATE, CORRECTION RE: WHITE HOUSE WEB SITE


1982 CONVICTION OF CIA'S EDWIN WILSON OVERTURNED

"Honesty comes hard to the government."

That is what a federal judge said this week in a spectacular
ruling that vacated the twenty year old conviction of former CIA
officer Edwin P. Wilson on charges of illegally shipping
explosives to Libya.

In his defense two decades ago, Wilson had claimed that he was
"still working for the Company." In response, the government
had denied that the CIA had had contacts with Wilson following
the end of his formal employment. This was untrue.

"There were, in fact, over 80 contacts, including actions
parallel to those in the charges," Judge Lynn N. Hughes wrote.

"Because the government knowingly used false evidence against
him and suppressed favorable evidence, his conviction will be
vacated," the ruling said.

"This opinion refers only to the part of the record that the
government has reluctantly agreed may be made public.... The
governmental deceit mentioned here is illustrative -- not
exhaustive."

The government can appeal the ruling or seek a new trial.
 Wilson remains in custody.

A copy of the 24 page Opinion on Conviction, dated October 27,
2003 is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/wilson102703.pdf


BUSH ON THE PRESIDENT'S DAILY BRIEF

The National Commission that is investigating the September 11
attacks is seeking access to the President's Daily Brief (PDB),
a highly classified intelligence briefing, from one or more days
in August 2001. At issue is intelligence which reportedly
advised the President of an impending threat from al Qaeda.
 This information was previously denied to the congressional
joint inquiry on 9/11.

Speaking at a news conference yesterday, President Bush
explained his view of the sensitivity of the PDB.

"It's important for the writers of the presidential daily brief
to feel comfortable that the documents will never be politicized
and/or unnecessarily exposed for public purview," he said.

But he held out the possibility of an accommodation with the
Commission.

"I believe we can reach a proper accord to protect the integrity
of the daily brief process and, at the same time, allow them a
chance to take a look and see what was in the -- certain -- the
daily briefs that they would like to see." See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/10/wh102803.html


SENATORS ON THE MISSING "28 PAGES"

The case for declassifying the extended passage of the
congressional joint inquiry report on September 11 that dealt
with possible foreign involvement in the attacks was reiterated
on the Senate floor again yesterday.

Senators Byron Dorgan and Charles Schumer offered an amendment
expressing the sense of the Senate that the missing 28 pages
(actually, 27) should be declassified and disclosed.

Following speeches from the sponsors and from Sen. Bob Graham,
the amendment was ultimately rejected on procedural grounds.
 See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s102803.html


CRS ON THE BOEING 767 TANKER LEASE DEAL

The continuing debate over the Air Force proposal to lease up to
one hundred Boeing 767 aircraft is illuminated by several
documents from the Congressional Research Service, including an
internal October 23 memorandum on fatigue and corrosion in the
existing tanker fleet. See:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/index.html#767


ROY JONKERS, RIP

Roy K. Jonkers was a retired Defense Intelligence Agency
official, the editor of Weekly Intelligence Notes published by
the Association of Former Intelligence Officers, a familiar face
at intelligence-related conferences and gatherings, and an
altogether decent fellow.

He is remembered in this Washington Post obituary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26956-
2003Oct27.html


UPDATE, CORRECTION RE: WHITE HOUSE WEB SITE

The White House yesterday modified the list of directories on
its web site that are off limits to search engines (SN,
10/28/03).

As a result, external search engines now have full access to the
contents of the site. (Numerous duplicate pages remain blocked,
as do various non-existent directories.)

For further updated information, see:

http://www.bway.net/~keith/whrobots/whresp.html

The example of a blocked page that was given in Secrecy News
yesterday was incorrect. The cited page was in fact accessible
through external search engines. The error was noted here:

http://www.virtualchase.com/tvcalert/oct03/29oct03.html#wh



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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                          Minnesota 'Cloud Walker'

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:11:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:54:08 -0500
Subject: Minnesota 'Cloud Walker'



Dear Brian

I have been hearing and reading various postings on strange
clouds. I have witnessed a number of strange cloud activities. I
am curious to know if others have seen similar. The last report
I read did not have any pictures available.

Location: West Central Minnesota

Date: October 3, 2003
Time: Late afternoon to sunset

Duration of event: About 20 minutes.

My husband and I were relaxing and talking about the day when he
noticed the sky turning a strange pink.

We have a small hill on the east side of our house and suddenly
we both almost at the same time said "What the hell is that?

I ran for my camera and began to take pictures.

We both saw a strange vertical cloud that seemed to be walking
up the hill. It had started out toward the bottom but by the
time I got the camera it was almost to the rise/top.

It seemed to be `body-like' in form. It also seemed to emit some
kind of  `mental energy'.  It gave off a very `scary'energy.

It continued out of view. The event starts with the unusual PINK
sky. Noticing the `Vertical walking cloud form". Noticing an
unusual line left in the sky. And ending with the "Cloud light"
that comes from the east hill where the `walking cloud' had gone
over the rise, then zooms off to the west and the sky returns to
normal.


I am almost thinking the above image maybe the same as the
`walking cloud' speeding off to the west_.

All we can say was it was VERY FREAKY !!!!!

Thank you to the witnesses for the report and photos. Photos can
be viewed at my site by going to:

http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/cloud_walker.htm

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                     Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar 11-08-003

From: The Intruders Foundation <Ifinfo1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:39:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:01:58 -0500
Subject: Budd Hopkins UFO Seminar 11-08-003


Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

Sight Unseen Abductee Panel

Saturday, November 8th, 2003 - New York City

On Saturday evening, November 8, the Intruders Foundation will
present a very special abductee panel discussion.  Our attention
will focus on cases which relate to the two central issues dealt
with in Hopkins and Rainey's new book, "Sight Unseen:" UFO
invisibility and transgenic beings.  Budd Hopkins will conduct
interviews with two witnesses, "Rosemary" and "Marianne," both
residents of Queens, New York, at the time of their abduction
encounters.  Both will discuss their experiences, Marianne's
having been detailed in "Sight Unseen" in the chapter titled
"Missing Children" and involving UFO invisibility, and
Rosemary's involving her experience with apparent transgenic
beings - part human and part alien - who assisted in her return
from her days-long abduction.

Rosemary's case, which is not included in the "Sight Unseen,"
has many extraordinary features, including what seems to be an
underwater UFO base in a Western lake, while Marianne will
discuss some of her later abduction experiences in the state of
Colorado.


Budd Hopkins will also show slides of the "missing" family in
the Australian photo case, entitled  "The Camera Never Lies?" in
"Sight Unseen," and will play excerpts from a hypnotic
regression he conducted with the principal witness.

After our break for refreshments, the audience will have a
chance to ask questions of the participants, in what we believe
will be a must-see evening.

REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on November 8th at the meeting rooms of
A.R.E., on the tenth floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York, NY.
 The price of the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for
members of IF, seniors, and students.  Reservations must be made
by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first
come, first served basis.  Payment must be made in advance to
secure the reservation.  Make checks payable to the Intruders
Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011.  Only 50
reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
 The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:00 PM.  Doors
open at 7:00 PM.  There will be a one half-hour intermission,
during which light complimentary refreshments will be served.  A
book table will offer books, videotapes, and other material for
sale to those interested.  For additional information, call IF
at 212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the interests of
open-minded scientific learning and the free exchange of research, ideas,
and theories.  IF makes no specific claims or endorsements regarding any
materials, views, or subject matter presented by our guests.


----------

UPCOMING IF EVENTS

* December 6th - Annual Holiday Party, Art Sale, and IF Fundraiser


----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit scientific research
organization, as well as past and future IF events?  Please visit our
website:

Intruders Foundation Website:

www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------







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                          Re: Mind Control? - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:29:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:22:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Mind Control? - White


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:52:58 +0000
>Subject: Re: Mind Control?

<snip>

>This URL might be useful to anyone wanting to avoid the problems
>of Mind Control:
>
>http://www.stopabductions.com/main.htm

The idea that one can prevent access to one's thoughts by
advanced technology is the first that occurs to our members. It
has proven totally useless over and over, and that includes the
use of 3M Velostat.

Even a 4-layer totally enclosing electromagnetic shield does
nothing to stop the current-day signals. One layer of that
shielding, tested by me, was 3M Velostat. The Velostat did a
superb job of absorbing conventional RF signals even with the
door open. Portable radios picked up nothing even with the door
open. My cell phone stopped working even with the door open.

Wearing a piece of headgear intended to stop conventional
electromagnetic signals _does_, however, provide opportunity to
ridicule its wearer and discredit him/her as a nut case.

Further emails on this topic and on this list will not be
answered by me.


Eleanor White







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:11:08 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:24:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:55:09 -0600
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:41:41 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>The only desperation around here, Jerry, is your desperation in
>>trying to avoid explaining why, after fifty years of one of the
>>most publicised UFO cases ever, none of the other 45 (or 147)
>>alleged witnesses have ever turned up.

>Wrong as usual, John. The desperation is entirely yours. Why,
>after 50 years of one of the most publicized UFO cases ever,
>_not_one_ negative witness - of whom, as I have said over and
>over again, there would be no shortage if they existed - has
>ever been located, stepped forward, or otherwise come to our
>attention? Could it be that such negative witnesses don't exist,
>and that in your desperation you have to keep changing the
>subject? If the case were as you want us to believe it was, it
>would have been long ago disproved conclusively and we wouldn't
>be having this pointless exchange. If the Trindade case is a
>hoax - as so far precisely zero evidence indicates it is - it
>is, clearly, not the sort of hoax you claim to believe it is.

The notion of people volunteering the information that they
didn't see a particular UFO strikes me as decidely unlikely,
Jerry, but admittedly not impossible.

However, the explanation for the lack of "negative witnesses" in
this case is fairly simple. According to the newspaper "O
Globo", journalists discovered that no officers or seamen were
actually on deck at the time of the alleged sighting.
Journalists could not find anyone who had seen the object
allegedly photographed by Barauna. Obviously they did not print
a list of statements, with names attached, of those who said
they had not seen the UFO, as this would have obviously looked
rather silly. Also, the reason they did not see it was simply
because they were not on deck at the time, so were not in a
position either to confirm or to deny the reality of the
sighting.

Thus you can believe it or not as you choose, but you cannot
reasonably cite any independent witnesses in support of the
sighting, because there is no available documentary evidence
that they ever existed.


John Harney






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               Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:38:30 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:26:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Tonnies


>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:25:34 -0600
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry

>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:32:13 -0800 (PST)
>>Subject: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry

>>To see a funny "Zippy the Pinhead" comic about
>Kecksburg's UFO
>>crash monument, see:

>>http://www.mactonnies.com/coverup.html

>LOL. Good ol' Zippy!

>>While you're there, take a look at the mug-shot of the "alien."
>>Apparently this began circulating in 1998, but I saw it for the
>>first time the other night. Does anyone know if it's been
>>successfully debunked?

>That's no alien. That's me from last New Years!

>Isn't this a video grab from the supposed "Alien Interrogation"
>at Area 51?

Terry,

Nope. This is a distinctly different creature. To read the story
behind it, see:

http://www.ufoconspiracy.com

Fake or not, I find it impressive.

=====
>Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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              CI: Redundant Anomaly: Another Mystery in Cydonia

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:19:39 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:33:14 -0500
Subject: CI: Redundant Anomaly: Another Mystery in Cydonia


Cydonian Imperative
10-29-03

Redundant Anomaly: Another Mystery in Cydonia
by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 42)

The Cydonia region of Mars is rich in small-scale surface detail
that appears eerily like satellite archaeological photos of
Earth. A good example is a curious feature I call the "Diamond,"
first brought to my attention by Bob Harrison (Cydonia Quest).
The Diamond is a shallow parallelogram in the immediate vicinity
of the "City" complex. It appears to be a buried enclosure or
platform of some sort.

[image]

The Diamond. Small pyramidal feature in lower left-hand corner
is Mound E.

What I find decidedly anomalous about this formation is that one
of its angles corresponds with Mound E, one of the bright "dots"
noticed on Viking imagery and subsequently studied by Richard
Hoagland, Dr. Horace Crater and Prof. Stanley McDaniel. In the
animation below, Dr. Mark Carlotto presents Mound E as imaged by
the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) and rotated based on elevation
data. What can be seen of the mound under the dust appears
pyramidal - possibly five-sided, echoing the City Pyramid and
D&M Pyramid. The pyramidal outcropping protrudes from the corner
of a rather neatly defined square.

[image]

Mound E's conspicuous placement within the Diamond configuration
reinforces its out-of-placeness. It certainly seems to fall into
the criteria for candidate archaeological sites. As the initial
Mound study was performed before high-resolution MGS data, Mound
E - and by extension, the Diamond - possess a doubly curious
degree of a priori strangeness.

[image]

Pentad formed by Mound E and nearby bright "mound" features. How
well does this model hold up against the Diamond? For trig
notation, click here. Image courtesy Horace Crater.

The odds of a few bright pixels turning out to be anything but a
shapeless, isolated landmass upon close examination are
incredibly low. Nonetheless, the Mound Geometry Hypothesis has
managed to detect what appears to be a deliberate "signal" in
the cluttered geological "noise" that crowds Mars' surface. This
argues credibly in favor of intelligent design.

-end-






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                        Cameraman's Crash Site Update

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:30:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:44:27 -0500
Subject: Cameraman's Crash Site Update


Cameraman's crash site update

On October 23, my wife, brother and I visited the dry lakebed
ten miles southwest Socorro known to us as the cameraman's crash
site. The cameraman was the person who sold Ray Santilli twenty-
two rolls of 16mm film showing the dissection of a creature of
unknown origin and the debris of its crashed craft.

We were revisiting the site to gather information that might
answer questions elicited during the previous discussion of this
topic on the Updates list and to explore the site in greater
detail.

Is there evidence of cristobalite on the sand and gravel at the
site?

Yes. We found several areas where the sand and gravel were
covered with cristobalite. The site is part of an open range;
much of the area has been trod by cattle for the last fifty-five
years and the sand has been disturbed by their wanderings but in
some inaccessible places there were mats of cristobalite
covering sand and gravel as large as five feet by ten feet. We
gathered samples and took photos of this incidence. It seemed
obvious to us that no ancient volcanic event could account for
this phenomenon. Some matted cristobalite was an eighth of an
inch thick and not only covered sand and gravel but dirt as
well.

Is there evidence for ancient volcanic activity such as a
caldera or deposits of obsidian which might account for the
cristobalite?

No, there is not any evidence that this site was once a caldera.
There is only evidence that this area is a rhyolite formation as
much as fifty feet thick and was created thousands of years ago
by falling ash from a volcano. That was the last geologic event.
Since then the rhyolite has been eroded by wind and rain and the
entire area for over two hundred square miles is exactly the
same desert sand and rhyolite outcroppings, except for the crash
site, which differs only by the cristobalite material and the
burned vegetation.

What is the nature of the burned vegetation?

The entire site shows evidence of being very hot at one time but
it is most noticeable around the impact site and the landing
site. There are several dozen burned and dead Junipers but the
interesting fact is that they only show scorched surfaces on the
top of the limbs and not on the underside. This would seem to
indicate that the source of heat was from above and not caused
by a brush fire from below. There is also a three hundred yard
row of Walnut trees that mark the path of the craft as it
approached the first impact area. We examined every tree in the
grove. Their crowns are burned and damaged and again, all the
scorch marks are on the topsides of the branches, indicating
heat from above. We took photos and samples of this burned
material.

Is there a distinct perimeter for the site and what is its size?
We were able to hike the entire perimeter and found that it is
indeed very distinct.

Inside the perimeter one can find signs of cristobalite and
burned vegetation. Outside this line of demarcation there is
only desert sand, rhyolite outcroppings, and the normal desert
vegetation one would expect. The site is a little larger than I
first supposed. It's length from east to west is six hundred
yards and its width from north to south is five hundred yards.
This includes the Walnut grove and the two cliffs the craft
impacted. There are no signs of the cristobalite material
anywhere in the surrounding desert that I have visited.

Is there evidence for the wooden bridge that the cameraman
described?

We followed the cameraman's directions to the site. Presently
there are three routes to the site but in 1947 there was only
one road and one possible entryway. The road was used mainly for
the local mining operations and one ranch which was located
about a mile from the crash site. We were able to find the
outlines of the old road the cameraman described, which at that
time was further up the mountain than it is today. We followed
that old road and found where it ended at the side of a steep
arroyo. We discovered that the road began again on the other
side of the arroyo. This indicated to us that there had been a
bridge across the span at one time. We did not find any evidence
of a wooden bridge but in 1986 there was a massive flood that
could have washed away any existing structure. The present road
has been re-routed down through the canyon, just as the
cameraman described. The cameraman's directions are very
accurate. He said that the crash site was about forty-five
minutes from the main road. We clocked it several times and that
seems about right. He said the site would be on the northeast
bank of a dry lake bed (the only dry lake bed in the area as far
as I can tell), and at the end of a deep canyon. This is
accurate. He said that the site would be covered with a strange
glass-like material. The crash site drawings the cameraman
directed are precise in their depiction of the actual terrain.
This could not happen by chance. The cameraman had to have
visited this site at one time. It's not reasonable to think that
he could have stumbled on to a freak cristobalite accumulation,
then faked twenty-two rolls of film to fit with the location.
This is not a well know area, and only visited by a few rock
hounds and local ranchers, in 4x4s.

Are there examples of cristobalite covering bacterial mats?

I have two rock samples of cristobalite covering what seems to
be some type of bacterial growth. My brother gathered these
samples four months ago; he couldn't remember the exact
location. Our plan was to search for samples of this bacterial
material and areas showing the bacterial mat, covered by the
cristobalite. The live bacterial growth and the cristobalite
covered dead bacteria growth were found, side-by-side. I think
this proves once and for all that the event that caused the
cristobalite accumulation at this site was neither ancient nor
volcanic but the direct result of a disabled UFO, during the
late afternoon of May 31, 1947.


Ed







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:03:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:46:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:55:09 -0600
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:41:41 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>The only desperation around here, Jerry, is your desperation in
>>trying to avoid explaining why, after fifty years of one of the
>>most publicised UFO cases ever, none of the other 45 (or 147)
>>alleged witnesses have ever turned up.

>Wrong as usual, John.

Jerry

>The desperation is entirely yours. Why,
>after 50 years of one of the most publicized UFO cases ever,
>_not_one_

independent

>witness - of whom, as I have said over and
>over again, there would be no shortage if they existed - has
>ever been located, stepped forward, or otherwise come to our
>attention? Could it be that such

independent

>witnesses don't exist,
>and that in your desperation you have to keep changing the
>subject? If the case were as you want us to believe it was, it
>would have been long ago

>proved conclusively and we wouldn't
>be having this pointless exchange. If the Trindade case is

genuine

>as so far precisely zero evidence indicates it is - it
>is, clearly, not the sort of

case

>you claim to believe it is.

>Give it a rest. This is getting boring.

But, of course, as it's in your encyclopedia, and therefore part
of the canon of great cases, it must not be challenged.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                           Squishy Ball Lightning

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:44:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:48:57 -0500
Subject: Squishy Ball Lightning


Source: Science Frontiers, No. 150, Nov-Dec, 2003, p. 4

http://www.science-frontiers.com


Geophysics

Squishy Ball Lightning

Ball lightning is noted for its ability to slip through crack
under doors and even pass ("magically") through closed glass
window panes. One has to suspect that a novel form of matter is
involved---probably a strange form of plasma. Ordinarily,
plasmas are simply clouds of equal numbers of ions and
electrons. Such plasmas do not exhibit the weird antics of ball
lightning. Certainly, we do not expect common plasmas to be
squishy enough and cohesive enough to squeeze through cracks and
keyholes.

J.J. Gilman suggests that ball lightning might be a plasma
containing "Rydberg atoms." In Rydberg atoms, the outer
electrons have been excited to very high quantum numbers (as
high as 10[3] and 10[4]!). These electrons may orbit several
*centimeters* distant from their parent atoms, thereby producing
according to Gilman, a "floppy" electron cloud. A plasma
containing a high population of Rydberg atoms would probably
exhibit squishy albeit cohesive properties.

(Ball, Philip; "Squishy Ball Lightning," *Nature*, 425:253, 2003.)

Cross reference. The Fall 2003 issue of the *Journal of
Scientific Exploration* includes a 61-page article by D.J.
Turner entitled "The Missing Science of Ball Lightning."

See: http://www.scientificexploration.org


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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                    First Systematic Survey Of Paranormal

From: Psychic Towers Research Foundation <creed@psychictowers.fsworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:32:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:09:45 -0500
Subject: First Systematic Survey Of Paranormal


NEWS RELEASE

Foundation=B9s Director Launches Britain=B9s First Systematic Survey
Of The Paranormal

Speaking today to an invited audience of students and academics
at the University of the West of England, Patrick Bannon,
Director of the Psychic Research Foundation, said:

=B3I am delighted to announce the start today of the first
scientifically based, systematic survey of the paranormal in a
British city.

We have chosen Bristol as the focus for our study because of its
relatively compact size and discrete nature, as well as its
diverse population.

Questionnaires are now going out to carefully selected
individuals and organisations chosen for their location on a one
kilometre grid we have imposed on the city.  This structure
ensures that Osoundings=B9 of the paranormal will be taken at
regular points, enabling us to develop a picture of the level of
incidence of paranormal activity for the city as a whole.

We aim to use this data to test hypotheses put forward by
researchers that suggest there is a link between electro-
 magnetic radiation in the urban environment and peoples=B9
perception of the paranormal.=B2

Thanking the University for its assistance, he went on to say:

=B3We couldn=B9t have got this far without the help and support of
students and staff at UWE.  We still don=B9t know if increased
environmental electro-magnetic radiation from mobile phones and
their base stations is having an impact on our psychological
development.  This survey won=B9t provide answers straight away
but is an important first step in filing the gaps in our
knowledge base that the Government=B9s Independent Expert Group on
Mobile Phones has so far failed to address.=B2

ENDS


Notes for Editors

Data obtained from the Bristol baseline surveys will be used to
test hypotheses put forward by researchers including Dr Michael
Persinger (Laurentian University of Sudbury, Ontario), Dr Susan
Blackmore (formerly at the University of the West of England)
and Albert Budden (author of OAllergies and Aliens: The
visitation experience as an environmental health issue=B9 1994)
that suggest a possible link between electro magnetic radiation
and the perception of Oparanormal=B9 events.

The first stage in this process is to establish a baseline of
the level of perceived incidences of paranormal events.  The
forthcoming Bristol survey will do that by taking Osoundings=B9 at
sites predetermined by their position on a one kilometre square
grid imposed on the city map.  This technique is analogous to
that used by marine scientists to establish population levels in
elusive or rarely seen species -- in particular cetaceans
(dolphins and whales) at sea.  This will give a feel for the
overall level of paranormal experiences in Bristol.  The next
stage will be to follow up positive results and seek out more
individual experiences within the study area.  These will be
analysed against known levels of electro magnetic radiation --
including hotspots around mobile phone base stations - in an
attempt to assess the likelihood of a causal link.

Work in this general area has been recently reported in the
specialist scientific press and on television (BBC=B9s Horizon
series reported on Persinger=B9s work in April 2003 and subsequent
articles in New Scientist covered similar ground.)  The
conjectured link between paranormal activity and electro
magnetic radiation is not in itself however particularly new,
having been noted as early as the mid 1970s (see for example
Paul Devereux -- OEarthlights -- Towards an Understanding of the
UFO Enigma=B9 1982).  At that time most researchers in the
paranormal field were primarily concerned with naturally
occurring electro magnetic radiation, in particular that
connected with tectonic activity and fault lines.  It wasn=B9t
until the clinical work of Spanos et al (OClose Encounters -- an
examination of UFO experiences=B9 reported in the Journal of
Abnormal Psychology in 1993) which clearly showed that people
claiming paranormal experiences were as well balanced as control
groups, that institutional science started to examine them
seriously.  This resulted in Persinger=B9s and Blackmore=B9s work
(reported widely in the mid 1990s: see for example BBC=B9s Horizon
programme OClose Encounters=B9 and New Scientist=B9s OAlien
Abduction=B9 both of November 1994), which suggested a possible
causal link with man made electro magnetic radiation.

The UK Government=B9s Independent Expert Group on Mobile Phones
reported in May 2000 on the health impacts of mobile phones and
base stations.  Its chairman, Sir Michael Stewart, concluded
that there were definite physiological impacts on the brain
following exposure to electromagnetic radiation and that these
could occur in the urban environment.  What was not clear was
whether or not these changes were harmful and he suggested that
more work be commissioned in this area.  This programme does not
form part of that body of research as its parameters were drawn
too tightly to permit the funding of work looking at
psychological (as opposed to physiological) impacts of mobile
phone use and increasing exposure to electro magnetic radiation
in our towns and cities.

The Foundation is able to field staff members for media
interview.  Please contact us on 07811 428 381 or by e-mail at
info@psychictowers.fsworld.co.uk







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              Re: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:42:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:14:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Maccabee


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:37:51 -0700
>Subject: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini


>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/3, Autumn 2001, pp. 13 - 17

>New Documents "Will Revolutionize UFOlogy"!
>by Alfredo Lissoni

>Translation from Italian. G.C. April 9, 2001 (*Il Giornale dei
>Misteri*,
>No. 353, March 2001)

>The discovery of some documents from the fascist era of Italy
>opens up new horizons for research on UFOs, and compels students
>of this subject to amend the official history of the flying
>saucers.  Under "Il Duce", Mussolini, there was a secret
>government commission of enquiry, known as the RS/33 cabinet,
>which studied the UFOs.

<snip>

>                       FINAL NOTE.

>I have now had two long telephonic chats (May 8 and 10) with Dr.
>Roberto Pinotti, who, as I emphasise, is recognized as the doyen
>of Italy's UFO researchers.

>He confirms that it is 100% certain that the "Fascist UFO Files"
>are completely genuine, and that he and Alfredo Lissoni have
>already started to write their book about it all.  *From what
>"MR. X" has already said it seems pretty certain that he will be
>a very frightened man.  I don't think we are going to learn HIS
>identity in a hurry*! G.C.

Anyone know the present status of this investigation?







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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Carol Buckallew <clbuckallew@cp-tel.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:59:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:52:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


Hello

I'm new here and would like to say I enjoy reading all the
subjects under discussion.

The one I find extremely interesting is the giant triangle
discussion and can tell you about one experience I had involving
a giant triangle.

I want to say I'm just a normal every-day person.

This happened in or near 1967, back then I didn't keep exact
records on unusual sightings. What I saw is, to the best of my
ability to remember, and I pretty much have a photographic
memory, or did before I got older. <LOL>

It was summertime and we went to a drive-in movie. I wasn't
interested in the movie as it was not one I would chosen to see,
it was Conquer Worm with Vincent Price.

The moon was full and the sky, being one of my favorite things to
watch, I had my head out the window looking at the moon and what
stars were visible.

When I saw the ship I first saw it through the windshield coming
from the north west, At first I didn't see it moving, just a
black spot in a bright moon lit sky.

So I watched and it got bigger, I waited until I was sure it was
something moving and threw the speaker out the window, started
the car and took off.

The drive-in was right on the highway so I got there quickly and
driving slowly had my head out the window watching to see where
this huge thing was going. I soon found out - it was heading
almost straight down the highway and only moving about 45 miles
an hour, so it was easy to watch and drive at the same time.
Since it was later at night, and a small place, there was very
little traffic going either direction.

I used to think we followed it about 6 miles but we were back in
that area this summer and I realized it was only about two miles
when I pulled off the highway and got out to watch it pass
almost directly overhead.

I would venture to say it was no more than 200 feet above our
heads, hard to tell at night, ya know.

It was very large and made no sound at all, it had no lights.
The only reason I saw it to begin with is the moon was so bright
it stood out like a sore thumb, it being so black.

As it passed over us it was just a little to our right, the left
side was closer. When I got out of the car I saw the row of
windows, round porthole type and there was a yellow light
emitting from all the windows.

I was prompting my friend to get out and look at this thing
before it was gone - while following it I had not taken a look
at her. She didn't respond to my urging at all, so I ducked down
and glanced in the car door at her to see her staring straight
ahead as if she heard not a word I said.

As it slowly passed - it appeared to slowed down even more - I
watched figures looking down at us from the windows. I could not
tell how many there were but they were moving from one window to
the next so they could keep watching us as the ship moved away.

They had very slender bodies but their heads were way larger and
out of proportion. I suppose they would be what we know now as
'grays'.

The ship moved off into the distance heading North East, still
no sound and it didn't speed up. As the rear end went past I
noticed there were three round areas sitting inside an
indentation. I have no idea what they were for. This all
happened in Colorado, between Grand Junction and Montrose.

At the time one could go a short distance out of town and there
were few lights - in case your wondering how I saw this thing in
the first place.


Thank you for your kind attention.

Carol

-------------









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                     Re: I Saw The Kecksberg UFO - Alex

From: Laurie Alex <tataina@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:45:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:05:34 -0500
Subject: Re: I Saw The Kecksberg UFO - Alex


>From: Brian Vike <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:03:14 -0800
>Subject: I Saw The Kecksberg UFO

>I Saw The Kecksberg UFO!

<snip>

I lived in Northwestern Pennsylvania at the time of the
Kecksburg Incident - to be precise, Franklin in Venango County
Pa.

I was 10 and spent large portions of my time staring at the
night sky.

I believe I have had several sightings and perhaps abductions,
tho not sure.

This incident truly is a case of cover-up, and I thank SCI-FI
Channel for airing it. I have been interested in UFOs since I
was very very young. I am really not sure how I even knew about
them at such a young age. I know this is real and that
extraterrestrial life exists.

I have no proof but just know.

Thank you for keeping us informed on this List.

PEACE Tataina@sbcglobal.net







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             Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Gottschall

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:20:51 -0500
Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Gottschall


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:15:04 -0000
>Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:21:03 -0700
>>Subject: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 45/3, Autumn 2000, pp. 18-21

>>Victim Mentality In Abductees: An Unacceptable Concept.
>>An Essay by Ann Druffel, (California), FSR Consultant

>I have read Ann Druffel's interesting book, and it seems that
>the techniques she describes can apparently be effective
>regardless of the beliefs of the abductee as to the true nature
>of the experience (real encounters with ETs, "interdimensional"
>beings, unusual dreams, illusions, or whatever). I share her
>puzzlement as to why certain prominent abduction researchers
>have apparently decided to ignore her work. For example, I could
>find no mention of it on Budd Hopkins's "Intruders Foundation"
>site or on David Jacobs's site.

>Could it be that her resistance techniques, if applied
>enthusiastically, and given the widest publicity might
>drastically reduce the number of abductees, thus forcing certain
>persons to look for something else to do?

>Any comments?


John and List,

I can't comment on Anne Druffel's book as I have not read it but
one of the speakers at the 2001 Australian National UFO
conference was Brenda Butler, an experiencer. She had been
running an abductee support group for 8 years at the time of the
conference and she presented us with a list of aids which have
helped all the people in the support group cease their
experiences and regain control of their lives. These aids
include:

1. willpower and determination, useful at the onset of the
experiences which helps abductees focus on one thing such as the
ability to move a finger or toe while paralysed.

2. protective rage which is stronger than usual anger, usually
from parents whose children were being interfered with.

3. righteous anger, anger we feel for ourselves when our free
will is being impinged upon.

4. self-programming which allows the idea that when fear occurs
it will be moved through quickly.

5. self-empowerment techniques, often hypnosis is very helpful
here.

6. metaphysical techniques such as flooding the body with
protective white light.

7. and finally support groups.

At the end of her presentation Brenda left us with a list
entitled Abductees Bill of Rights which I thought was extremely
empowering and very useful. I have reproduced them and
circulated them to abductees since and I reproduce it here for
interest.

*We have the right to be respected.

*Our bodies belong to us exclusively and we have the *right to
set our own boundaries.

*We have the right to do anything within our power to protect
ourselves and our children.

*We have the right to speak up about this abuse without being
ridiculed.

*We deserve the right to be supported.

*We have the right to choose our life's path, our friendships
and our partners for ourselves.

*We do not deserve to be terrorised, used or abused
in any form whatsoever.

Brenda and her group felt very strongly that the abducting ETs
were here for their own purposes and the idea that abduction
experiences were for the benefit of mankind was absurd to her.


Sheryl Gottschall
Australian Centre for UFO Studies







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                Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:40:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:24:22 -0500
Subject: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Balaskas


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:42:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:37:51 -0700
>>Subject: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini

>>Flying Saucer Review, Volume 46/3, Autumn 2001, pp. 13 - 17

>>New Documents "Will Revolutionize UFOlogy"!
>>by Alfredo Lissoni

>>Translation from Italian. G.C. April 9, 2001 (*Il Giornale dei
>>Misteri*,
>>No. 353, March 2001)

>>The discovery of some documents from the fascist era of Italy
>>opens up new horizons for research on UFOs, and compels students
>>of this subject to amend the official history of the flying
>>saucers.  Under "Il Duce", Mussolini, there was a secret
>>government commission of enquiry, known as the RS/33 cabinet,
>>which studied the UFOs.

><snip>

>>                       FINAL NOTE.

>>I have now had two long telephonic chats (May 8 and 10) with Dr.
>>Roberto Pinotti, who, as I emphasise, is recognized as the doyen
>>of Italy's UFO researchers.

>>He confirms that it is 100% certain that the "Fascist UFO Files"
>>are completely genuine, and that he and Alfredo Lissoni have
>>already started to write their book about it all.  *From what
>>"MR. X" has already said it seems pretty certain that he will be
>>a very frightened man.  I don't think we are going to learn HIS
>>identity in a hurry*! G.C.

>Anyone know the present status of this investigation?

Hi Bruce!

A few years ago I shared copies of these alleged UFO crash
documents with faculty and staff members with our history and
Italian language departments here, at York University, in
Toronto, for their comments and to get them translated. They
were very impressed and forwarded copies of these documents to
others but like with many other such very interesting and
potentially explosive cases, none had the time, or the
inclination, to do a follow-up on my reproductions of these
incredible official and very authentic looking documents which
could have been doctored.

There are good reasons to suspect that the discovery of an ET
spacecraft by "Il Duce" would have created ties with Hilter who
was very interested not only in UFOs (there are other similar
early UFO crash accounts in Germany) and the occult but was one
of the reasons for the Italians invaded Abyssinia (Ethiopia) to
acquire an important ET artifact - the Ark of the Covenant. A
few years ago an author/researcher friend of mine has told me
that high level sources in the Isreali Government informed him
that this ET artifact is now back in Israel.

I wonder if one of the speakers at the upcoming UFO crash/
retrievals conference will have something new to add to these
Italian UFO crash documents from the 1930s.


Nick Balaskas







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                    New Brunswick UFO Encounter Explored

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:30:21 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:16:59 -0500
Subject: New Brunswick UFO Encounter Explored


Source: Canada East

http://canadaeast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031030/TTEBRIEF/310300004/-1/
FRONTPAGE

Sighting of unidentified flying object over Indian Mountain part
of Life Network documentary

Jorge Barrera
Times & Transcript Staff

It was a clear, cold early February morning when Amy Wilbur saw
a flying orange orb in the sky.

Now, the only way she can describe it is by what it was not.

"It wasn't a fiery ball, it was solid. It almost looked like the
moon, but the moon was on the other side of the sky," said
Wilbur. "It couldn't be a meteor because I've seen lots of
those."

Only one explanation remains as to what hovered over the tree
line just off Indian Mountain Road on that winter night: an
alien space craft.

"I tried to reason with everything else it could be," said the
18-year-old artist.

Wilbur is not alone. Last year there were 483 reported sightings
of Unidentified Flying Objects in Canada, four of those
sightings came from New Brunswick, according to the web-based
Canadian UFO survey which tallies sightings dating back to 1989.

The website is maintained by Manitoba resident Chris Rutkowski,
one of the country?s leading UFO authorities. Rutkowski along
with Fredericton?s Stanton Friedman, the world?s leading expert
on the Roswell case, are featured in a Life Network documentary
called UFO Hunters scheduled to air Nov. 8 at 9:30 p.m. The
half-hour segment features an interview with Wilbur and her
mother who also saw the hovering orb.

"UFO sightings are far more common than people realize," said
Friedman, in a phone interview from a Detroit hotel room on
Tuesday before he was scheduled to give a lecture on the topic
at the University of Detroit-Mercy. "There have been many close
encounters in New Brunswick, including abductions by aliens of
earthlings."

This is not the first time an encounter of the Third Kind in New
Brunswick has garnered national attention.

Last January, a number of Inkerman residents reported seeing a
diamond shaped alien space craft in the sky. The community sits
about 20 kilometres southwest of Shippagan.

Wilbur has since painted what she saw that morning at around 2
a.m. In the painting, amid the swirling deep dark blues of early
morning, an orange ball, like a giant balloon, peeks through
ghost-like trees.

"My mom agrees my painting matches our sighting," said Wilbur.

She had just gone to bed on the morning of Feb.9 when her mother
and a friend woke her to look at something through the window.
Wilbur said she couldn?t really see it through her bedroom
window and went to the living room to get a better view.

"It was a round orange ball in the sky hovering across the road
and field to the west in front of our house," she said. "It was
bright and light orange, the edges even brighter, a red-orange."

Wilbur, who at one point used binoculars, said the surface of
the object was very smooth, lacking any "pock-marks of lights,
metal sheen or anything at all but smooth orange."

The orange ball moved very slowly, downward and diagonally, said
Wilbur. It slid silently behind the trees, pausing for a moment,
before disappearing.

"It went straight down, quickly," she said. "About five or six
times faster than when the sun sets."

Thinking back, Wilbur said it was "pretty", but during the
encounter she said it gave her very negative feelings.

"None of the traffic that had been going by drove down the road
the entire duration of the sighting," she said. "It started up
again only minutes after it disappeared. It?s probably a
coincidence, but it added to the feeling that there was
something wrong here."

Wilbur, who had half-believed in aliens before, said the
experience made her a true believer.

"I?m more willing to believe other people?s stories," she said.

Many might scoff at the idea that aliens have visited New
Brunswick, but Friedman said those people have to open up their
minds to the facts.

Friedman, who wrote Crash at Corona: The Definitive Story of the
Roswell Incident, said non-believers base their opposition on
three things.

"First, there is the ignorance of the data," said Friedman. "The
second problem is the fear of ridicule and the belief that you
can?t get there from here."

The emergence of extraterrestrial sightings began in full force
after the end of the Second World War, said Friedman. The use of
an atomic bomb, rockets and radars probably alerted more
advanced life forms that the earth was worth keeping tabs on.

"I go on one assumption about advanced civilizations. They are
concerned about their own survival and about security," he said.

A civilization as dangerous as the earth?s, which Friedman said
is constantly embroiled in "tribal warfare", developing
technological capabilities to leave the planet could cause other
civilizations great consternation.

"They are here to quarantine us," he said.

Many in the UFO believing community say an alien space craft
crashed near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947 and the event was
covered up by the United States government.

The U.S. government denied the occurrence of any such an event
in a 231-page report.







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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:01:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:50:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:03:05 +0000
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:55:09 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:41:41 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>>The only desperation around here, Jerry, is your desperation in
>>>trying to avoid explaining why, after fifty years of one of the
>>>most publicised UFO cases ever, none of the other 45 (or 147)
>>>alleged witnesses have ever turned up.

<snip>

>>Give it a rest. This is getting boring.

>But, of course, as it's in your encyclopedia, and therefore part
>of the canon of great cases, it must not be challenged.


I've seldom seen something so uncalled for, sir, moreover, I
think that Mr. Clark's difficulty is with the verity and quality
of the challenge and not that one is being made.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                             Rods Bashing Abated

From: Joe Escamilla <publicrelationsdept@themidwaysighting.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:55:15 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:38:42 -0500
Subject: Rods Bashing Abated


PRESS RELEASE:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/11/prweb87144.php

November 1, 2003

Rods Bashing Abated

Today, there are a few prominent UFO Researchers who 'bash', the
Rods Phenomenon, but, do so under the misguided guise of
"comingling Jose Escamilla with The Midway Rods (TM) Phenomenon,
even though they have been aware of his resignation, since
November of 1994.

Most recently, E to the Third Power's (TM) ex-business
partner's, Jose Escamilla's, Rods movement has begun to take
quite a bruising, with speculation that his rods footage is
nothing more than insects.

Over the past ten years, E to the Third Power (TM) has released
a variety of "Disclaimers," in regards to the RODs UFO
Phenomenon, as portrayed by their ex-business partner, primarily
The Midway Rods (TM) UFO Phenomenon:


http://www.themidwayrods.com/Archival_Dept-Rods-1-UFO_Universe-1.html

"What many people fail to realize is that the primary reason
that The Midway Sightings (TM) is privately owned, operated,
controlled and regulated is to ensure that the scientific
integrity of the footage is maintained, and there are strict
policies, in force, to ensure that occurs," states Becky
Escamilla, Administrator of E to the Third Power (TM).

Unless the analysis conducted, in regards to any of the Midway
footage, is done so in accordance with E to the Third Power's
(TM) Operating Instruction 14-001, "UFO Stock Footage Analysis
for Public Broadcast," the likelihood of any analysis conducted
otherwise, is invalid and not worthy of scientific value. The
criteria within that Operating Instruction has to be met in
order to ensure that the general public is not misguided or
deceived in any way, shape or form, when it comes to The Midway
Sightings (TM), included but not limited to The Midway Rods (TM)
UFO Phenomenon.

The members of E to the Third Power (TM) cannot speak for other
UFO footage/analysis, of other UFO footage, that lies without
their scope of expertise, but, they can speak loudly in regards
to any and all footage in regards to The Midway Sightings (TM)
which includes The Midway Rods (TM) UFO Phenomenon, and that is
to say that unless it is analyzed under the conditions set forth
in their policy, then, it is rendered useless and of no
significant scientific value.

This week, E to the Third Power (TM) releases, Archival
information via, http://www.themidwayrods.com/Archival_Dept-
HOME.html, in regards to the Rods and their Operating
Instruction 14-001, for conducting analysis of The Midway
Sightings (TM) UFO Footage, included but not limited to The
Midway Rods (TM).

The Archival Department's micro-site also includes a copy of E
to the Third Power's (TM) subsidiary, Exotech Industries' (TM),
December 26, 1997, letter to President Clinton in regards to
"Extraterrestrial Contact and The Civilian Alternative Towards
the Commercialization of Space." Letter can be viewed at:

http://www.themidwayrods.com/Archival_Dept-E_to_the_Third_Power_TM-1-Letter_to_P
resident_Clinton.html








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   Oct > Oct 31

                  Re: Roswell Crash Radio Broadcast - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:38:54 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:35:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Crash Radio Broadcast - Boone


On Jeff Rense's website a Mr. Stanton sent a link to the
original news broadcast regarding the Roswell incidents.

http://rense.com/general43/orig.htm

What's of interest is listening to it as a whole and the
inconsistencies of the official report down the line in contrast
to what was reported from this broadcast. Basically the final
official results just don't add up.

There's mention of two discs, at first regarded as a missile.
Then there's the mention of flimsy materials, no power sources
etc. and that early in the broadcast it mentions that the
'saucer' was already shipped to Wright Pat. Why would anyone
ship a weather balloon to Wright Pat? Just the broadcast alone
is enough to warrant the investigations and suspicions that have
gone on for decades and thanks to Mr. Friedman and Berliner and
the rest we KNOW.

It's always a good bet to go back over history and look at it in
a new sense of time and in this case a new sense of ear.


Best,

Greg






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               Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:40:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:04:20 -0500
Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Rimmer


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 +1000
>Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>I can't comment on Anne Druffel's book as I have not read it but
>one of the speakers at the 2001 Australian National UFO
>conference was Brenda Butler, an experiencer.

Is this the Brenda Butler who was the first investigator of the
Rendlesham case?


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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   Oct > Oct 31

                        National Naval Medical Center

From: Keith Chester <projectbluebook@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:41:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:18:27 -0500
Subject: National Naval Medical Center


Hello List,

I was sitting at the National Archives today, sifting through
records, starting to fall asleep, when someone walked up to my
desk. Before I turned around, a piece of paper was dropped in
front of me.

The heading on the document was "National Naval Medical Center".
I looked up and saw it was one of the guys who knows I'm
researching UFOs.

He said, "We found this and knew you were in here. We knew it
should be copied and given to you." Now, these guys are
convinced that UFOs are a high-tech craft and very conventional
in nature. They politely listen to my theories, but I know
they're just humoring me.

Anyway, I gave a closer look at the paper and went down the
list of dates:

-----

1954

Date: August 6
From or To :NNMC Ser. 1073 to Off. Asst. Sec.
Subject: Ack. receipt of ltr. 4 Aug' 54, concern. projected
visit of Asst. Sec. Nav. to NNMC..

Date:August 5
From or To: NNMC Instr. 1600.1A Sup.1
Subject: Procedure for obtaining emergency Maintenance
services at NNMC after working hours,Sat., Sun., & Holidays.

-----

Ok, I thought, and was about to ask, when I spotted the third
entry.

-----

Date: August 11
From or To: NNMC Instr. 3820.1
Subject: Instructions for reporting unidentified flying objects
observed in sky in area surrounding NNMC.

-----

I looked around and my friend was walking away. He turned and
gave me a grin.

I thought the List might find this interesting. It might be
right up the alley of  the researchers of Bluebook, OSI, or
4602.


By the way, have a Happy Halloween!

Keith